Clark v. Little Rock Board of Education Joint Appendix
Public Court Documents
January 1, 1969
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Clark v. Little Rock Board of Education Joint Appendix, 1969. 20e82841-ca9a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/8529b4aa-04ed-4781-9cb1-ff6c0f280425/clark-v-little-rock-board-of-education-joint-appendix. Accessed May 24, 2025.
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DSLO
KTCAIIOM
HOOL1DISTIHCT
luitpii States fflimrt o! Appeals
F or the E ighth Circuit
No. 19795
Delores Clark, et al.,
vs.
Appellants,
T he B oard of E ducation of the
L ittle R ock S chool D istrict, et al.
No. 19810
Delores Clark, et al.,
vs.
Appellees,
T he B oard of E ducation of the
L ittle R ock S chool D istrict, et al.
appeals from the united states district court for the
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
JOINT APPENDIX
VOLUME 1 — Pages la - 408g
H erschel H . F riday
Robert V. L ight
1100 Boyle Building
Little Rock, Arkansas 72201
John W . W alker
B url C. R otenberry
1820 W est 13th Street
Little Rock, Arkansas 72202
Jack Greenberg
James M. N abrit, III
N orman J. Chachkin
10 Columbus Circle
New York, New York 10019
G - t
6 ^ 3
Attorneys for Appellants
and Cross-Appellants
I N D E X
Page
Docket Entries ............................................... la
Motion for Further Relief .................................... 5a
Answer of Defendants to Motion for Further Relief ......... . l6a
Motion to Intervene as Parties-Plaintiff .................... 24a
Complaint of Plaintiffs-Intervenors .......................... 27a
Letter of District Court Dated July 18,.1968 ................ 32a
Order Permitting Intervention ................................ 33a
Answer to Complaint of Plaintiffs-Intervenors ............... 34a
Transcript of Proceedings August 15-16, 1968 ................ 38a
Response to Motion of McDonald Applicants for Intervention .. 408a
Order Denying Leave to Intervene McDonald, et al............ 408c
Report and Motion ............................................ 408d
Transcript of Proceedings December 19, 20 and 24, 1968 ...... 409
Memorandum Opinion ........................................... 891
Decree.......................................................... 922
Notice of Appeal ............................................. 924
t
Notice of Appeal .............................................. 925
Notice of Cross-Appeal ....................................... 926
la
DOCKET ENTRIES
DELORES CLARK ET AL v. THE BOARD OP EDUCTION OP THE LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL
DISTRICT ET AL
YOLANDA 0. TOWNSEND ET AL - Plaintiff intervanors
LR-64-C-155 LITTLE ROCK CLASSROOM TEACHERS ASSOC. -Intarvenor
DATE FILINGS—PROCEEDINGS C L E R K ’ S FEES
PLAINTIFF DEFENDANT
A M O U N T
R E P O R T E D IN
E M O L U M E N T
R E T U R N S
11-4-64 Complaint filed; summons issued and handed Mars lal
Motion for preliminary injunction filed. Copie 3 to 4ar >hal
Points in support of complaint filed
11-6-64 Marshal's return filed showing; service on all 3ef en 3 an ;s on
November 4,1964
11-14-64 Answer filed. Certificate of service
Statement in opposition to motion for prelimin ^ry 1i Jinioh101 f- 1 eri .
Certificate of service.
11-20-64 Amended motion for preliminary injunction file 3
11/24/64 Hearing before Young, J. at 9:30 A. M. on pet3 tion for prel Iminary
Injunction. Case set for full hearing on Jemuarj 5, 196L
12/18/64 Interrogaories to' defendants by plaintiffs fi Led. Cei
Cer
’tifi<:at( of service
12/28/64 Objection to interrogatories filed by defendaiits. tlfic ate of service
It Defendant's statement in support of objection to Ititerrogat or!es fi Led.
1/4/64 Answer to interrogatories filed by defendants . Certif lcate 0f sen flee.
1/5/65 Trial to Court before Young, J. begun at 9=30 .1. M . no1 comi)let,ed at 4:55
p. m. and continued until tomorrow.
/ S / 6 5 Trial continued from Jan. 5, 1965. Testimony i:ompl<stecl. Cc>ur1 orders
that Moore child be admitted to West Side J-mior Hi;;h ScLloo! and
that an attorney's fee of $250.00 be allowec1___ re:>t of th<: case
under advisement.
1/21/65 Defendants' Exhibit No. 9 filed. Copies to a :tys ror part:Les by attys foi
defendants.
-/4/d5 Trial Memorandum for plaintiffs filed. Certif Icate of service .
/23/65 Motion by defts for authorization to file Siippleinent;al
Report, for approval of procedures embodied in r ;por•t, arid i pproval
for following procedures filed. Certiflea :& of sei■vice
(Copy of Supplemental report attached to mo lion)
722/65 Plaintiffs' response to defts' motion and supp Lemen :al repo;•t ‘lied.
Certificate of service.
' / S / 6 5 Letter notice from Judge Young reflecting that Mr. 3raiiton las withe rawn
as one of the attorneys for the plaintiffs h jrein fi ,ed.
1! Conference with Judge Young at 11 am re issues invo Lve 1 and tr .al de
dvise
te.
To meet with members of the board and school offi Jia .s and a the
court on a suggested trial date.
5/27/65 Supplemental Report by Little Rock School Dist "let ,'il id. ;er if leaite of £
1/13/66 Order by Judge Young filed making a part of th 3 rec ird Mr. friday' s letter
, jan. 11th, to which is attached certain info- -U ~ -t. — >TT . 1" ---fi,- 4. ----
wnati in :ompl..ad Try-"MiTTair,
Deputy- s’iipaTratent or schouTstr •Copie'S' to--at-
2a
Docket Entries
Delores Clark, at al v. Boat'd of Ed. LR 64 C-155
L. R. School Dist.
C IV IL DOC KIT
DATS FIUNM-mOCOSINaC cuotK's rmm AMOUNT
DVWMNT EMOLUMENTnrrunNC
1/14/66 Memorandum Opinion of Judge Young filed; propa sed 1'reqdom cf 0hoice
filed with the Court 4/23/65 approved, provlded that Witt in 15 da /a
the Board will amend plan to provide: a choice t0 a11 Students 0" t Y
class represented by pits in 12th grad to transfe r t0 another hig 1
school at the end of school semester in Jan. 196Cif annua 1 "freed pm c
--- choice!' to be exercised under reasonable regulati ons and cordl t1 o lfl
promulgated by the Board, etc.. Copies to couri.sel|
1/27/66 Report and motion for approval of action tak<;n fi Led by d<ifeiidanta .
Certificate of service.
2/4/66 Order by Young, J. filed dismissing herein a ; the CO 3t of de fendaiits.
Copies to attys for parties.
3/4/66 Notice of Appeal filed by plaintiffs. Copy to a :ty for <.eft s by
Clerk's Office.
3/30/66 Appeal Bond filed. Transcript mailed to Court of Appes Is
4/4/66 Designation of Record on appeal filed. Ce rtificat 2 of service.
4/21/66 Certified copy of Order Brom Cir. Court of 1ippeaLs :'or tlle i3th Cir .
denying motion for advancement on the ca .enda cirderi*d
that appellants may dispense with the pi•epar iti<>n of a ]irinte d
rdcord and the Court will hear appeal on ■;he 0cig:.nal :MLlcis of
the District Court and briefs of the par';ies.
4-22-66 Original file mailed to Court of Appeals
9/14/65 Transcript of testimony taken before Judge Y01mg, ran, 5, t!, ]965
filed. (E.West - 2 vols.)
4-18-67 Mandate from Court of Appeals: reversing order inso far as i: d<jes nc t
conform with the requirements as set forth in ihe 0pin .on 0.r tile Coi rt
of Appeals; remanded for further proceedings t<> ins are addi lioiial
requirements of a valid plan are inserted and ;hat bhe futu re cjperat ion
of the Plan is in conformity with Opinion of C<>urt Pf .Lppea .s; in ai 1
other respects the order of the District Court is Affi:’med.
Copy of the Opinion of the Court of Appeals 011 the me:’its ;md
Copy of the Opinion of the Court of Appeals 011 the pe ;itioi1 f<>r
rehearing filed.
7-12-6'7 Motion for further relief filed by plaintiffs
7/28/6"/ Order by Young, J. filed extending through® A-ig. 2 5, -967 :im<; in vhlch
defendant may answer or otherwise plead her iin fLle<1. C<>pi<ts to atty
for parties.
6/25/68 Motion for further relief filed by plaintiffs with ex'.libit "A 1 attached
Certificate of service.
r>. c. 110
j Docket Entries
LR 64 C-155
3a
DELORES CLARK, et al v. L.R. School Dist. Young, J.
DATS fiunos—proceedinoe CLERK'S FEES AMOUNT WSPORTED IN KMOUJMBNT RETURNSPLAINTIFF WWIBAWT
3/28/68 — Motion_of Yolanda G. Townsend. 4 minor. by hCI fat)ier and
next frisnd, Dr. W. H. Townsend, et al to 3|nter’rene as
parties plaintiff filed. Proposed intervertion conplairt attach ad.
5/28/68 Points and authorities in support of motion tc int<srvene filed .
VlO/68 Letter order by Young, J. filed extending until We d. July 17t h,
time for response of deft, to pending motion s. Copy of 1etter to
attorney for plaintiff.
r/17/68 Answer of defendants to motion for further relief 1lied. Certf. of serv.tl Response of defendants to motion for leave to intei vene filed. C / 57/18/6? Motion filed by Yolanda G. Townsend et al graiited 3Y *'udge Yoimg
Letter memo signed by Judge Young setting hear ing (in rrotior fcr rel Lef
on August 15th,1968 at 9:30 a.m. further stat ing 1 ;hat ansvier of
defendants to motion is "essentially meaning' ess J »•Complaint of Plaintiffs - Intervenors filed
7/25/68 Answer of defendants to complaint of intervenor b fi:Led
8-14-68 Motion for leave to intervene filed by LR Class room Teachers Ass'n.
8-15-68 Order granting motion to intervene by Classroom Teac]iers sigried by
Judge Young filed and Intervention filed
Hearing on motion for further relief hefnne .Tndg■ft fin**rini- F \
begun at 9:30 a.m. case not concluded, ----
8-16-68 Hearing on motion continued: at conclusion of test:Lmor y by Dr, Goldhammer,
motion was made and granted bv Judge Young that thi: he arina1 recessed
until sometime in December, the School Board tc fil<i nc t latep than
November 15th,1968, a plan either by zoning or some ot) er p]an where there
only be schools; that by next year, the facultj mus1; be dese gra ted
either by ratio to the races with pupils or nunber <>f 1eache r3 in
district; motion for counsel fees with referenc e to fa? ulty (Iffegrat ionnot ruled on at this time.
9/6/68 Reporter's transcript of trial Aug. 15 & 16, :.968 in 1wo VCils, (D.Leasure
11/15/6? Report and Motion pursuant to Order of Court file d b;r defi:ndimts. C/S.
11/18/6? Court Reporter's steno-type notes on trial of jiug.l5th and .6t)1 filed .
11/26/6? Motion of Michael McDonald, et al, to intervem : as pari;ies )la:.ntiff
filed.
Z" Points and authorities in support of motion to inte rveile fi'.ed
12-10-63 Response to motion for leave to intervene as 5artie 3 plaint iff ,f lie i by
defendants. C/S
12-10-68 Memorandum for defendants, filed by attorney for de fendants •
12/13/6? Motion of Mrs. Doyle Speights, et al, to inte:■vene as part:,es Pltf. filed
Points and authorities In support of motion to lrtervene filed.
4a
Docket‘Entries
Delores Clark, et al, v. L. R. School Dlst.
CIVIL DOCKET ________________________Young, J<
LR 64 C-
F IL IN G S —P R O C E E D IN G S
C L E R K ’ S FEES
PLAINTIFF DEFENDANT
A M O U N T
R E P O R T E D II
EM O LU M EN T
R E T U R N S
12/16/68 Deposition of Charles A. Brown on behalf of pl.tfs. filed.
12/18/68 Order by Judge Young that motions to intervene of llcltael McDonald _e
e
ts
i l
and Mrs. Doyle Speights, et al, not timely iled counsel for the
parties may participate as amicus curiae to file written stotemer
of their positions and legal memorandums in supp 3rt if desired, f
Copies to counsel
12-23-68 Deposition of Floyd W. Parsons filed
12-19-68
12- 20-68
Trial of _cas.e—continued before-.Judge Gordon E .
Trial continues- to be completed December 28rd
-Y-oung-
1968
-Clerk's minutes for hearing on Dec.l8th.19th.ard 20th filed
12-24-68 Testimony in case completed before Judge Gordon E. Young and the case
taken under advisement.
12- 27-68 Motion for reconsideration of order dated December 18,1968, denying
leave to intervene of Michael M. McDonald et a filed
1/ 8/69 Order by Judge Younm denvlnm motion of Michael ^cDor a id »—e..t a l , for re-
consideration, filed. Copies to counsel
1/10/69 Volumes III and IV of trial, Dec. 19, 20, 1968, filed. (Pea Ragan)
1-13-69 Volume V of V Reporter's transcript of trial f. led.
2/3/69 Notice of Appeal filed by Michael McDonald, et al, applicant's
for intervention. Certificate of service.
2/3/69 Bondfor costs on appeal filed.
2-14-69 Stenotype notes filed by Ragon, Reporter, for aearl ngi on:
12-16-68, 12-19-68, and 12-20-68.
2/18/69 Pltfs1 memorandum of points and authorities, fi le d . :/S
2/18/69 Defts* memorandum brief filed. C/S
2/26/69 Reporters stenotype notes filed for 12-24-60
Attorneys; ____
John W, Walker
Tfarold B. Anderson
1 flop u ak i o f ______i t J C v W f l i l l l v v v l l u n D v •
Little Rock, Arkansas 72202
for plaintiffs andTa mli- vbvK
10 Columbus Circle
New York, N.Y. 10019
John P, Sizemore
NcMath,Leatherman, Woods ft Youngdahl
711 West Third St.__________________
Little Rock, Arkansas 72201
Robert Y, Light
Smith, Williams, Priday it Bowen
110O Boyle B2idg.
Little Rock, Arkansas 72201
for defendants
Eugene Warren
Tower Building
Little Rock, Arkansas 72201
Tor Classroom Teachers
motion to
MOTION FOR FURTHER RELIEF
5a
F I L E D
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
wr.
3UN '568
yy/ H. iVICLi-ELLAN, CLlKK
CJ«n ’
DELORES CLARK, ET AL.,
Plaintiffs,
VS. CIVIL ACTION
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE :
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, :ET AL., :
Defendants. :
NO. LR 64 C -155
MOTION FOR FURTHER RELIEF
Come now the plaintiffs, and the class they represent,
by undersigned counsel, and respectfully move the court for further
relief as appears more fully below, and for cause state:
1. Defendants have been under continuing order of this
Court and the United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Cir
cuit, since 1956, to operate the Little Rock public schools in a
manner consistent with the requirements of Brown v. Board of
Education and the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States
Constitution. The orders required that the dual system of separate
schools for Negro and white pupils be eliminated by the beginning
of the September, 1963 school term.
2. During the past twelve years, defendants have uti
lised varying pupil assignment procedures, including pupil screen
ing, pupil placement laws, and "freedom of choice," all of which
have had the effect of continuing the dual school attendance
pattern.
3. Defendants operate the following schools which are
populated solely by Negro pupils:
(Elementary) 1967-1968
a. Bush
Enrollment
----T5S---
b. Carver 824
c. Gibbs 459
d. Gill am 170
e. Granite Mountain 476
f. Ish 543*
g- Pfeifer 202
•constructed for initial
use in 1965
Motion for Further Relief 1967-1968
Enrollment
h. Eighteen 429
1. Stephens 370
j. Washington 513
Total 4152
(Junior High Schools)
a. Booker 750
b . Dunbar 707
Total 1457
(Senior High)
a. Horace Mann 820
Total 820
6a
Thus, of the 8,495 Negro pupils enrolled in the Little Rock School
District in the 1967-68 school term, 6429 or 75.7 per cent attend
ed all-Negro schools. Moreover, approximately 764 more Negro
pupils attended all-Negro schools in Little Rock in 1968 than in
1957. (In 1957 there were approximately 5665 Negro pupils in the
system* of whom nine attended white schools.)
4. A . During the 1967-68 school term Negroes not
attending all-Negro schools were concentrated at the following
previously predominantly white schools described by Superintendent
parsons as " over-Integrated": % of School
a. Central High School*
No. Pupils
---ITT-----
Population
ifi—
b. West Side Junior High 484 47%
c. Centennial (Elementary) 131 43%
d. Kramer (Elementary) 75 39%
e. Lee (Elementary) 117 31%
f. Mitchell (Elementary) 251 72%
Total 1473 !
‘Central is included because of the obvious
trend to a considerably changed racial
balance.
B. The total number of Negro students in the six
"over-integrated" schools was approximately 1473 in 1967-68, or
71% of all the Negro pupils in "integrated" schools; the number
of Negro pupils in the other predominantly white schools was
approximately 587 or 29%.
C. On information and belief, under the present
plan the enrollment at Central High School will be approximately
- 2-
Motion for Further Relief
7a
30% Negro during the 1968-69 school year. This will be caused in
part by the planned opening of the Parkview School, located in tha
far western part of Little Rock, in September 1968, which will
enroll approximately 250 white pupils in grade ten who would
otherwise be assigned to Central; and, in part, by the expected
enrollment of approximately 250 Negro pupils in all grades in
Central in September, 1968.
D. On information and belief, under the present plan
the enrollment at West Side Junior High School will be approximate -
1 65 to 70% Negro during the 1968-69 school year. This will be
Ct..sed in large part by the planned opening of the Parkview
School, locatedin the far western part of Little Rock, which will
enroll approximately 250 pupils in grades eight and nine who
otherwise would have been assigned to West Side; and, in part, by
the assignment of 250 additional Negro pupils to West Side.
E. On information and belief, under the present plan,
the enrollment at Mitchell Elementary School during the 1968-69
school year will be approximately 90 to 95% Negro. This will be
caused by the declining choices of white pupils to attend an "over-
integrated" school and by the steadily increasing number of choicis
fer this particular school by Negro pupils.
During the 1967-68 school term the following schooli
were more than 95% white:
No. Pupils
% of School
Population
Hall High School ll2? 99%
Forest Heights Jr. 987 99%
Henderson Jr. H. 893 98%
Southwest Jr. H. 1139 97%
Pulaski Heights Jr. 667 95%
(Elementary Schools)
BNle 477 99%
Brady 6689 99%
Fair Park 243 100%
Forest Park 439 99%
Franklin 571 99%
Garland 318 9S%
Jefferson 529 100%
McDermott 312 99%
Meadowcliff 550 100%
Pulaski Heights 469 99%
Terry 462 100%
Williams 703 99%
-3-
Motion for Further Relief
Thus, of the approximately 16,018 white pupils in the system
10,716, or two-thirds, of them attend schools where their majorit1'
race percentage exceeds ninety-five per cent.
Between 1955 and 1968, the Little Rock School
District knowingly constructed the following schools on a racial
neighborhood basis:
A. ALL-NEGRO SCHOOLS:
(1) Horace Mann High School, located in the
Eastern section of Little Rock in the midst of a
heavily Negro section of town, was initially used in
I
September 1957. The initial staff of this school was
all Negro; and during the 1967-68 school term only one
of the faculty members of Mann was white. All of the
secretaries and other staff personnel were Negro.
(2) Booker Junior High School, named for a locally
prominent Negro attorney, initially opened in September
1963, is located near Horace Mann in the Eastern part
of the city and is likewise in the midst of a heavily
Negro section. The initial staffing of Booker was all-
Negro; and the present percentage of white personnel is
below ten per cent.
(3) Ish Elementary School, named for a locally
prominent Negro physician, initially opened in Septem
ber, 1965. This school is in the midst of an urban
renewal area which, before renewal was racially mixed,
but which after renewal, became almost totally Negro.
The initial staffing of Ish was all-Negro; and the
present percentage of white personnel is below ten per
cent.
(4) Gill am Elementary School, named for a locally
prominent Negro family, initially opened in September,
1963 or 1964 as an all-Negro school with an all-Negro
staff. It is located in the midst of an urban renewal
area which before renewal was racially mixed, but which
after renewal became all-Negro.
8a
_4 _
Motion for Further Relief
B. ALL- WHITE SCHOOLS:
(1) Hall High School, Initially opened in 1957
as an all-white school. The school was located in a
heavily and burgeoning white populated area in the
northwestern part of the city. However, approximately
one hundred Negro pupils were within the Hall attend
ance area in 1957; but they were all assigned to the
East Side Horace Mann High School. Since 1957, the
areas near Hall in which Negroes lived have been con
demned by the Urban Renewal authorities; consequently,
only a handful of Negro pupils now live within the
Hall zone. The staff of this school is approximately
one per cent Negro (one Negro teacher) and during the
1966-67 school term, only five Negro students were
enrolled at Hall.
Moreover, the six white school board members all live
in the Hall zone as do most of the major white staff
members. The school is thus high prestige and, the
preference of most white pupils.
(2) Forest Heights initially opened as an all-
white school in 1956 or 1957. The same essential
description in paragraph one of B, supra, applies
to Forest Heights, which is located several blocks
from Hall High School.
(3) Southwest Junior High School, initially
opened in 1956 or 1957 as an all-white school. It
is located in the midst or near several all-White
sub-divisions and the capacity of the school is con
sistent with the neighborhood population.
(4) Henderson Junior High School, initially openec
in 1963 or 1964. It is located in the extreme western
part of the city which is more than 99% white. The
staff and student body have always been predominantly,
if not all, white.
9a
- 5 -
10a
Motion for Further Relief
(5) Meedowcllff l l w M n U r y School, located in
the M t m * southwestern section of tho city, initially
opened in 1956. It is locator in the midst of an all-
white subdivision (neadowcliff) and ia of sufficient
also to aecoamodato only tha nueber of pupils residing
within tha immediate neighborhood. ouring tha 1967-6*
school taro, the staff was all-vhita.
OTiLSR LL£*«.HTARV SCHOOLS
(6) Mcbaraott Lleoentary School, initially opened
in 1966 or 1967, ia looatod in tha extrene western part
of tha city in tha aidat of several all-white subdivi
sions. Faculty and staff composition ia mostly whita
with tha possible aaoaption of ona or two negro teachert
The sane ia true for tha following schools, cals (1959)
Srady (1961), Tarry (1965) and Millions ( ).
(7) Tha only elementary school constructed since
1954 which has s significant percentage (11%) of bogro
pupils is tha .ionina School (I960) located in the
southwestern part of the coaonunity near a snail negro
neighborhood. But, the pattern o f faculty and staff
assignments continues.
6. The defendants have by their site selection, school
construction, pupil assignment, and faculty desegregation pro
cedures and policies affectively contributed to the creation of
a racially divided community in whioh the elimination of the dual
system is made more difficult in 1968-69 than in 1934-55 cr,
indeed, In 1957-38.
7. Tha defendants have received major support for
their pro-aegregatioa site selection and construction polices
from the city government of Little Rook and the Little Rock
.lousing Authority.
H. The schools operated by defendants for low income
egro pupils are physically inferior to the schools operated for
11a
Motion for Further Relief
middle and high incoma white pupils. For example, some Negro
schools have many temporary facilities, while some white schools
have air conditioning, carpeting, etc.
9. The district pursues a policy and practice of apply
ing Public Law 89-10 funds iija. manner inconsistent with the intent
of that law to the detriment of Negro pupils.
10. The district pursues discriminatory practices in
the selection, utilization and placement of administrative staff,
principals, coaching staffs, and faculty. For example, despite
specific court orders re faculty assignments, assignment patterns
have not changed.
11. The district has rejected or refused to implement
alternate plans of desegregation, one popularly styled The Oregon
Report prepared by a team of professional eduaators from the
University of Oregon; and the other styled the "Parsons Report"
prepared by defendant Parsons. One copy of each report is being
lodged with the Court.
-7-
12a
Motion for Further Relief
WHEREFORE, plaintiffs move this Court for an order requiring
that defendants submit a new plan for the desegregation of the
Little Rock Public Schools anc for further cause state as follows:
1. On M.y 27, 1968, the United States Supreme Court
decreed that freedom of choice plans are constitutionally unac
ceptable where "there are reasonably available other ways, such
for illustration s zoning, promising speedier anc more effective
conversion to a unitary nonracial school system." Green v. County
School Board of New Kent County, Virginia. 36 U.S.L.Week 4480.
--- 2. Plaintiffs accordingly submit that defendants may
not assign students, for the 1968-69 school year, pursuant to their
choices without first demonstrating to this Court, by evidence,
that other methods of pupil assignment, as, for example, by unitary
nonracial zones or pairing, or both, would not produce greater
desegregation. In any event, plaintiffs allege upon information
and belief that the assignment of students upon the basis of a
unitary system of nonracial geographical attendance ?ones or upon
the basis of a pl.-n for the consolioation of grades or schools,
' or both, would more speedily an< effectively effectuate a unitary
nonracial system.
3. If plaintiffs and the Court are to be able intelli
gently to appraise the new plan, defendants must be reouired to
nefine what criteria were used in determining geographic : ones
cr in pairing schools anc to furnish appropriate source materials
indicating the locations of the various schools and the residences
of the pupils in the system. See Davis v. Board of School Commis
sioners of Mobile County, No. 25175, 5th Cir., recided March 12,
1963, and in particular Section IV of the decree.
WHEREFORE, plaintiffs pray that this Court, in view of
the short time remaining before the 1968-69 school year, enter a
decree directing:
1. That defendants immediately conduct a survey cf their .
school system and report to the Court and the plaintiffs the
result of such survey. The report shall induce:
13a
Motion for Further Relief
*• 5 «*P o f tha district shewing each school (by
types elsmentary, junior or senior high) and the
reticence, by race and trade, of each student in the
systen during the 1967-68 school yeari
b. separate description of each school shovings
type of school, grades taught, whether accredited,
acreage, nunbar of regular sue portable clasaroons
(excluding gynnesiues, laboratories jnc other specialised
facilities)i
c. * list ©f all sites currently owned or which the
district plans to acquire, their sises an< intended use;
d. For each building now tuxer constructIon or
planned: location, cate construction will commence,
expected date of opening, type of tahocl intended., anti
cipated capacity, nunber cl regular an- portable class-
rooea.
2. That defendants submit and serve upon the plaintiffs
a. The report of the survey described in 1, above,
b. A pl*n for the assignment of ill students for the
1968-69 School year upon the basis of e unitary system
of nonraeial geographic attendance - ones cr a pi m for
the consolidation of grades or schools, or both:
c. a description of the criteria usee, in determining
one lines or for consolidating schools;
d. A report tc be apoenceo to the plan shoving the
t
expected enrolleant rer the 1968-69 schorl ye r by grade
ant by race, for each school.
3. Th-it plaintiffs be allowed 15 rays in which tc file
4. Scheduling a hearing on the proposed, plan anc
objections or amendments no later than July 31, 1963.
and the Court, nc. later than July 1, 1363:
objections or amendments tc the plan.
Res ' ' “ .
14a
'lotion for Further Relief
JOHN W. WALKER
NORMAN J. CHACHKIN
HAROLD ANDERSON
1304-B Wright Avenue
Little Rock, Arkansas 72206
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I do hereby certify that I have served a copy of the
foregoing Motion for Further Relief upon the attorney for oefencants
Herschel H. Friday, Eso., via depositing same in the U. S. Mail,
postage prepaic, addressed to him at his office at 1100 Boyle
Building, Little Rock, 'rkansas, this 25 day cf June, 1963.
15a
ANSWER OP DEPENDANTS TO MOTION POR FURTHER RELIEF
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
DELORES CLARK, ET AL PLAINTIFFS
v. NO. LR 64 C-155
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE DEFENDANTS
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, ET AL
ANSWER OF DEFENDANTS TO
MOTION FOR FURTHER RELIEF
COME THE DEFENDANTS .and for their answer to Plaintiff's
Motion for Further Relief, state:
1.
State that Defendants have been parlies to various litigation and
state that Orders have been entered by Courts in that litigation and that
Defendants are affected by those Orders. State that the Orders speak for
them selves.
2.
State that Defendants have utilized varying pupil assignment
procedures which included, among other tilings, some aspects of screening
and placement and that Defendants have been utilizing the "freedom of choice"
procedure most recently.
3.
Admit the allegations o f Paragraph 3 of the M o t i o n , but by way
o f further answer state that while 9 out of 5,6G5 Negro pupils were in an
integrated situation in 195 7 - 58, 2,066 Negro pupils were in an integrated
situation in 1967 - 68, representing 24.3% .
16a
/
4.
A. With reference to the allegations o f Paragraph 4 A of the
■ >« »
M o t i o n , admit that the figures and percentages pertaining to Negro
attendance at the schools listed are accurate,
t
B. With reference to the allegations o f Paragraph 4 B state that
the total number of Negro pupils in the six schools listed in Paragraph 4 A
was approximately 1,473 in 1967 - 68, or 71% of all the Negro pupils in
schools attended by both Negro and White pupils and that the number of
Negro pupils in other schools attended by both Negro and White pupils
was 587 or 29%.
C . With reference to the allegations o f Paragraph 4 C , on the
b.asis o f information available at this time (which may change before the
opening o f the 1968 - 69 school year), the pupil enrollment at Central High
School w ill be approximately 26% Negro. This will result from the assign
ment o f all pupils to Central who asked to go there and the number of pupils
who w ill attend Central High School in 1968 - 69 w ill be affected by high
school pupils attending other schools in the District by virtue of assignment
there pursuant to the freedom of choice procedures being utilized by the Board,
including Parkview School located in the western part o f Little Rock (on the
basis o f information presently available,, approximately 250 While pupils
will attend Grade 10 at Parkview who would otherwise have attended Central).
D. With reference to the allegations o f Paragraph 4 D, state that
on the basis o f present information the enrollment at West Side Junior High
School for the 1968 - 69 school year will be approximately 65% - 70% Negro.
This w ill result from the assignment o f all pupils to West Side who asked to
go there.
Answer of Defendants to Motion for Further Relief
- 2 -
E. With reference to the allegations of Paragraph 4 E of the
Motion, state that the enrollment at Mitchell Elementary School during
the 1968 - 69 school year will be approximately 85% - 90% Negro, which
will result from the assignment of all pupils, Negro and White, to Mitchell
r
who asked to go there. Further answering, Defendants state that the number
o f Negro pupils attending Mitchell has steadily increased over the past years
and the percentage of Negro pupils attending M itchell has steadily increased
over the past years.
Second 4
(The Motion has two paragraphs numbered 4).
Admit the allegations of Paragraph Second 4 of the Motion.
5.
A. With reference to the allegations of Paragraph 5A of the Motion,
Defendants state:
1. Horace Mann High School is located in the eastern section
of Little Rock in the midst of a section that is heavily populated by Negroes.
It was initially used in September, 1957; the initial staff was all Negro;
during 1967 - 68 only one of the faculty members was White; and all of the
secretaries and other staff personnel were Negro.
2. Booker Junior High School was named for a loca lly prominent
Negro attorney; was initially opened in September, 1963; is located near
Horace Mann High School in the eastern part of the City; is in the midst
of a section that is heavily populated by Negroes; the initial staff was all
Negro; and the percentage of White personnel during the 1967 - 68 school
year was below 10%.
3. Ish Elementary School was named for a loca lly prominent Negro
physician; was initially opened in September, 1965; the initial staffing was
all Negro; the percentage of White personnel during the 1967 - 68 school year
was below 10%; and is located in an Urban Renewal area. Defendants do not
17a
Answer of Defendant! to Btotionfor Further Relief
- 3 -
have sufficient information as to the racial mixture of the "area" before
and after the institution of the Urban Renewal Project to admit or deny
the allegations t>f the Motion pertaining thereto.
4 , Gilliam Elementary School was named for a loca lly prominent
Negro family; was initially opened in September, 1963; the initial pupil
population was all Negro; the initial staff was all Negro; and is located
in an Urban Renewal area. Defendants do not have sufficient information
as to the racial mixture of the "area" before and after the institution o f
the Urban Renewal Project to admit or deny the allegations o f the Motion
pertaining thereto.
B. With reference to the allegations of Paragraph 5 B of the
Motion, Defendants state:
1. Hall High School was initially opened in 1957; the initial pupil
population was all White; the school is located in the northwest part o f the
City in a section that is heavily populated by W aites. Defendants do not
have sufficient information as to the number of Negro pupils who lived in
the proximity of Hall High School in 1957, but state to the best of their
knowledge and information, all such Negro pupils did attend Horace Mann
High School during 1957 - 58. Since 195 7 there have been Urban Renewal
Projects involving areas in which Negroes lived . Defendands do not know
how many Negro pupils live near Hall (or within the boundaries of the
areas that have been set up under the freedom of choice procedures because
of overcrowding at Hall), but admit that the number is small. During the
1967 - 68 school year, there were 5 Negro pupils who attended Hall and
there was 1 Negro teacher on the staff. All o f the present members o f the
Board o f Directors of the Little Rock School District live near Hall (in the
area determined as a result o f overcrowding as aforesaid) except Mr. Patterson.
Answer of Defendant* to Motion for Further Relief
- 4 -
2. Forest Heights Junior High School opened in September, 1955;
the initial pupil population was White; the school is located several blocks
from Hall High School.
3. South West Junior High School was initially opened in September,
1956; the initial pupil population was White; and is located in the midst or
near several residential sub-divisions which are heavily populated by Whites
(Defendants do not have information as to whether any of these sub-divisions
are all While as alleged).
4. Henderson Junior High School was initially opened in September,
1964; it is located in the extreme western part of the City; and the general
area around the school is heavily populated by 'Whiles (Defendants do not
have accurate information as to the percentage). The staff and pupil
population have been predominantly W hite.
5. M eadowcliff Elementary School is located in the extreme
southwestern part of the City; Defendants do not know when it was initially
opened, but assume 1956 is accurate; is located in the midst of a sub-division
(M eadowcliff), the population of which is all or substantially all White
(Defendants do not have accurate information as to the percentage); and
during the 1967 - 68 school year, the staff was W hile. As to the size of the
school, the number of pupils who attended during 1967 - 68 was 312.
6. McDermott Elementary School was initially opened in September,
19 67; is located in the extreme western part of the City in the midst of
several residential sub-d iv isions, the population of which is all or substantially
all White (Defendants do not have the exact percentage). During the school
year 1967 - 68, there 2 Negro teachers on the staff. The same statements
are generally true as to Bale Elementary School (Bale was opened in September,
1959); Brady Elementary School (Brady was opened in September, 1961); Terry
Elementary School (Terry v/as opened in September, 19G5); and Williams
Elementary School (Williams was opened in September, 1958).
19a
Answer of Defendants to Motion for Further Relief
- 5 -
7. Romine Elementary School was opened in September, 1960;
is located in the southwestern part of the City; during the school year
1967 - 68 the percentage o f Negro pupils was 21%; and there were 2
Negro teachers on the staff.
Further answering, as to the general subject matter of the allegations
o f Paragraph 5 of the Motion, the percentages with reference to pupils and
staff will change for the 1968 - 69 school year, but are not set forth at this
time because pupil and staff assignments are not final as o f this time. Also,
by way of furnishing complete information, M eadowcliff Elementary School
and Brady Elementary School were not constructed by the Defendants. These
schools were constructed by the Pulaski County Special School District
and were acquired by virtue of the annexation o f territory to the-Little Rock
School D istrict.
6 .
Deny the allegations of Paragraph 6 of the Motion.
7.
Deny the allegations of Paragraph 7 of the Motion.
8 .
Deny the allegations of Paragraph 8 of the Motion.
9.
Deny the allegations of Paragraph 9 'of the Motion.
t
1 0 .
Deny the allegations of Paragraph 10 of the Motion.
11.
Deny the allegations of Paragraph 11 of the Motion.
1 2 .
Deny all allegations o f, and facts alleged in, the Motion except
those herein expressly admitted and set forth.
20a
Answer of Defendants to Motion for Further Relief
_ 6 -
21a
Answer of Defendants to Motion for Further Relief
1 3 .
Defendants deny that the Plaintiffs are entitled to the relief prayed
for but by way of further answer affirmatively state:
1. Defendants have proeceded in good faith to comply with their
constitutional obligations and duties as enunciated by the Courts, including
particularly the latest decision of the Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit
in this case (Clark) as to pupil and faculty desegregation.
2. Shortly after the United States Supreme Court decisions in the
Green, Raney and Monroe cases (handed down May 27, 19G8) the Board of Directors
of the District appointed a Committee to promptly meet and determine what
feasible changes in and alternatives to the desegregation procedures of
the District were available. The Committee has met several times and has
invited and received suggestions in public and private meetings. However,
before it could conclude its work this Motion was filed . The Committee has
submitted an interim report to the Board of Directors and the Board of Directors
has approved that report this 17th day of July, 1968. Copies of the Resolution
of the Board of Directors appointing the Committee, of the action of the
Committee in requesting suggestions at public and private meetings and of the
interim report approved by the Board, as aforesaid, will be filed as exhibits
to this Answer as soon as their preparation for filing can be completed. As
stated in its interim report the Committee will continue-its work and the Board
t
of Directors will discharge its affirmative duties as to desegregation as
promptly as possible.
3. The Defendants are committed and hereby reaffirm that commitment,
to proceed affirmatively and in good faith to bring their desegregation procedures
into compliance with all constitutional requirements and specifica lly deny any
allegations or implications of bad faith or improper action or inaction.
- 7 -
22a
Answer of Defendants to Motion for Further Relief
WHEREFORE, Defendants pray that the Motion for Further Relief
be denied; that the Defendants be permitted to finalize as promptly as possible
action on changes and alternatives in their desegregation procedures in order
to bring them into compliance with all constitutional requirements!; that the
action taken by the Defendants in this regard bo approved by the Court;
and that the Defendants have ail other relief to which they may be entitled.
SMITH, WIJ,LIAMS, FRIDAY & BOWEN
11th Floor Boyle Building
Little Rock, Arkansas
ATTORNEYS FOR DEFENDANTS
- 8 -
23a
Answer of Defendants to Motion for Further Relief
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I, Herschel H. Friday, one of the attorneys for the defendants,
certify that I have served a copy of the foregoing Answer upon the plaintiffs
by placing the same in the United States Mail addressed to plaintiffs' attorneys
of record at their respective addresses.
This 17th day of July, 1968.
MOTION TO INTERVENE AS PARTIES-PLAINTIFF
24a
F 1 w
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS w.
WESTERN DIVISION SY: —
■WN 28 1969
h. McClellan, cl
------55T
DELORES CLARK, et al..
Plaintiffs,
VS.
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE LITTLE
ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, et al.,
Defendants.
YOLANDA, G. TOWNSEND, a minor, by her :
father and next friend, DR. W. H. :
TOWNSEND; PAL JAMES NOBLE, ROWENA NOBLE,:
CHARLOTTA NOBLE, and SADIE ALLISON, by :
their mother and next friend, MRS. MARY :
L. ALLISON; ALVIN BOOTH, JR., LUCRETIA :
BOOTH, and CONNIE SUE BOOTH, minors, by :
their mother and next friend, MRS. :
LUCILLE BOOTH; ERMA JEAN JACKSON, a : CIVIL ACTION
minor, by her mother and next friend, :
MRS, ERSALENE BROYLES; LARRY DEAN ; NO. LR-64-C-155
CLARK, CARL D. CLARK and CAROLYN D. :
CLARK, by their mother and next friend, ;
MRS. LILLIE MAE CULLINS; TERESSA A. TAYLOR,
a minor, by her parents and next friends,:
MR. and MRS. ALLEN CUNNINGHAM; HAROLD :
JAMES EVANS, a minor, by his mother and :
next friend/ MRS. BLANCHE E. EVANS; :
MARY ALICE FORD, KENNETH RAY FORD, and :
PERRY ROE FORD, minors, by their mother :
and next friend, MRS. BEATRICE FORD; :
CHARLES PEARSON, BERNARD JOHNSON, and :
TYREE E. PEARSON, minors, by their :
mother and next friend, MRS. ABTHEO MAE :
GEORGE; GREGORY GIPSON, ROSALYN GIPSON, :
WILLIAM GIPSON, REX GIPSON, minors, by :
their parents and next friends, MR. and MRS.
WILLIE GIPSON, JR.; CHERLYN HAMPTON, :
ANDREW HAMPTON, and PHYLLIS HAMPTON, :
minors, by their mother and next friend, :
MRS. B. J. HAMPTON; VERA MAE JOHNSON, :
JERRY S. JOHNSON, and DONALD JOHNSON, :
minors, by their mother and next friend, :
MRS. RUFUS JOHNSON; CARL LOTTING, HAROLD :
LOTTING, JOY RENEE JONES, and RONALD :
JONES, by their mother and next friend, :
MRS. QUEEN JONES; MAEZELL LAVY, GLORIA :
LAVY, and GROVER LAVY, by their parents :
and next friends, MR. and MRS. J. J. :
LAVY; MARY NELL LEOYD, RONNIE LLOYD, :
HOWARD LLOYD, and MILTON LLOYD, by their :
mother and next friend, MRS. ETHEL LLOYD;:
FREDERICK H. MARKS, PERRY LEE MARKS, and :
STEVEN MARKS, by their mother and next :
friend, MRS. SARAH J. MARKS; EMMA GEAN :
Motion to Intervene as Parties-Plaintiff
25a
PAIGE, SAM ELLA PAIGE, and JOLLIER PAIGE, :
by thair parents and next friends, MR. and t
MRS. ROBERT PAIGEj ELIZABETH PURIFOY, CAROL
PURIFOY, SANDRA PURIFOY, minors by their :
parent and next friends, E . PURIFOY; :
DOROTHY BACCU; EDWYNA CARTER, CALVIN :
REYNOLDS, and CURTIS REYNOLDS, minors, by :
their mother and next ffiend, FLORICE :
REYNOLDS; LEORA E. SMITH, FREDERICK T. :
SMITH, JR., and OTIS S. SMITH, by their :
father and next friend, REV. FREDERICK T. :
SMITH; JAMES EARL THOMAS, a minor, by his :
parents and next friends, MR. and MRS. :
SAMUEL THOMAS; NORMA TRIMBLE, a minor, by :
her mother and next friend, MRS. RUTH :
TRIMBLE; LAWRENCE GOODMAN, GLENNA GOODMAN, ;
and RICHARD GOODMAN, minors, by their :
parent, and next friend, MRS. CELESTIAL :
WEST; REGINIA F. WILLIAMS, a minor, by her :
mother and next friend, MRS. ZELPHIA :
WILLIAMS; BURNETTA YORK and MARSHALL YORK, :
JR., minors, by their mother and next s
friend, MRS. KATIE YORK; :
Applicants for
Intervention.
MOTION FOR LEAVE TO INTERVENE AS PARTIES
PLAINTIFF
Come the above-named applicants for intervention and
respectfully move the Court for an Order permitting them to
intervene as parties plaintiff in this action and permitting them
to file the Complaint attached hereto, and for cause state:
1. Applicants for intervention are members of the
class on whose behalf this cause of action is instituted; all
minor applicants attend schools within defendant school district;
some minor applicants attend schools within the district attended
predominantly by white students; other minor applicants attend
schools attended exclusively by Negro students.
2. Applicants for intervention should be permitted to
intervene as parties plaintiff in this action upon the following
grounds:
(a) Applicants have a substantial interest in the
subject matter of this action.
-2-
Motion to Intervene as Parties-Plaintiff
26a
(b) Applicants will be bound by any judgment,
decree, or order entered or to be entered
in this action.
(c) Applicants' Complaint, the original complaint
in this cause and the issues currently exist
ing before the Court have questions of law and
fact in common.
(d) Applicants are members of the class on whose
behalf the original action is brought? their
intervention will not to any extent delay or
prejudice the further adjudication of the
rights of the original parties.
WHEREFORE, applicants for intervention respectfully
move the Court for an Order permitting them to intervene as
parties plaintiff in this action, and allowing them to file the
attached Complaint; and further respectfully move that they be
accorded the right to present oral testimony and oral argument
before the Court prior to the disposition of the issues before
this Court, and for any and all other proper relief.
JOHN' w : WALKER------------ -----
NORMAN J. CHACHKIN
1304-B Wright Avenue
Little Rock, Arkansas
HAROLD B. ANDERSON
Century Building
Little Rock, Arkansas
JACK GREENBERG
JAMES M. NABRIT, III
MICHAEL MELTSNER
FRANKLIN WHITE
Suite 2030
10 Columbus Circle
New York, New York 10019
Attorneys for Applicants for
Intervention
-3-
COMPLAINT OF PLAINTIFFS-INTERVENORS
27a
XM TBS UNITS) STATU DISTRICT COURT
TOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
NUTERN DIVISION
DELORES CLARK, at al., :
Plaintiff!, :
V S . :
i
THE BOARD OP EDUCATION OP TH£ LITTLE ,
ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, i t t l , , t
Defendant!.
YOLANDA G. TOWNSEND, a minor, by her
father and next friend, DR. W. H. :
TOWNSEND) PAL JAMES NOBLE, ROWENA NOBLE, ;
CUARLOTTA NOBLE, end SADIE ALLISON, by j
their mother and naxt friend, MRS. MARY
L. ALLISON, ALVIN BOOTH, JR., LUCRETIA i
BOOTH, and CONNIE SUE BOOTH, minors, by t
their mother end next friend, MRS. :
LUCILLE BOOTH) ERMA Jj*AN JACKSON, e minor, i CIVIL ACTION
by her mother and naxt friand, MRS.ERSALENS:
BROYLES; LARRY DEAN CLARK, CARL D. CLARK ; tr- '• b;;-64'C-155
and CAROLYN D. CLARK, by thair mother end ,j
next friend, MRS. LILLIE MAE CULLINS;
TERESSA A. TAYLOR, a minor, by her parents :
and next friends, MR. end MRS. ALLEN .
CUNNINGHAM: JiAROLD JAMES EVANS, a minor, :
by his mother end next friend, MRS. BLANCHE;
E. EVANS; MARY ALICE PORD, KENNETH RAY :
PORD, and PERRY ROE FORD, minors, by their :
mother and next friend, MRS. BEATRICE FORD;:
CHARLES PEARSON, aERNARD JOHNSON, end :
TYREE E. PEARSON, minors, by their mother
end next friend, MRS. ARTnEO MAE GEORGE;
GREGORY GIPSON, ROSALYN GIPSON, WILLIAM j
GIPSON, end KEX GIPSON, minors, by their :
parents end next friends, MR. and MRS.
KIDAXSI UfUKMSS JR.; CHERLYh HAMPTON,
ANDREW HAMPTON, end PHYLLIS HAMPTON, ;
minors, by thair mo tiler and next friand,
MRS. B. J. HAMPTON; VERA MAE JOHNSON, :
JERRY S . JOHNSON, end DONALD JOHNSON, :
minors, by their mother and naxt friend,
MRS. RUPUS JOHNSON; CARL LOTTING, HAROLD ;
LOTTING, JOY RENEE JONES, and RONALD :
JONES, by their mother and next friend,
MRS. QUEEN JONES; MA22ELL LAVY, GLORIA i
LAVY, and GROVER LAVY, by thair parents
end naxt friends, MR. AND MRS. J. J.
LAVY; MARY NELL LLOYD, RONNIE LLOYD, j
HOWARD LLOYD, and MILTON LLOYD, minora, by :
thair mother end next friend, HRS. ETHEL t
LLOYD; FREDERICK K. MARKS, PERRY LEE MARKS,-,
end STEVEN MARKS, by their mother and naxt :
friend, MRS. SARAH J. MARKS; EMMA GEAR :
TVi t ACTJOB
«-■. >•*'*4 ivs
28a
Complaint of Plaintiffs-Intervenor
SAXOS, SAJI I L U SAXOS, and JOLLIER SAXOS x
by their p a m t a sad n u t friudn, NS. u 4 i
MRS. AOASST SAXOS) SLXXASSTH SORXSOY, CAROL)
SURXSOY, SANDRA SCSISOY, minor*, by their
parent and next friand, S. SURXSOT; 2
DOROTHY RAOCOt EDWYNA CARTER, CALVXS t
REYNOLDS, and CURTIS REYNOLDS, minora, by 1
their mother and nest friend, SLORXCS t
REYNOLDS; LEORA S. SMITH, FREDERICK T. 2
SMITH, JR., and OTX8 B. SMITH, by their <
father and neat friend, REV. FREDERICK t . 2
SMITH; JAMES KARL THOMAS, a minor, by his 1
parents and neat friends, MR. and m a s . 2
SAMUEL THOMAS) NORMA TRIMBLE, a minor, by 1
har mothar and aaat friend, MRS. RUTH 1
TRIMBLE) LAMREHCS GOODMAN, GLBMHA GOODMAN, 2
and RICHARD GOODMAN, minors, by their 2
parent; end neat friend, MRS. CELESTIAL 3
WEST; REGINA S. WILLIAMS, a minor, by har 2
mothar and mat friend, MRS. IKLPHIA 2
WILLIAMS; BURNETTA YORK end MARSHALL YORK, 2
JR., minors, by thaix mothar end neat
friend, MRS. KATIE YORK; t
Applicants for
Intervention.
C O M P L A I N T
------------- <5F---------------
PLAINTIFFS-IMTERVENORS
X
Plaintiffs-Xntervsnors adopt and rs-allegs all of the
allegations of the original Complaint herein, and of aubsaquant
pleading* fllad on bahalf of the original plaintiff*, inoluding
the Motion for Further Relief filed in this cause on June 25,
1*68, with the seme foroe and affect es though they were fully
aet out harein.
COUNT ONE
II
Plaintlffs-Xntervsnors further allege that they are
■ambers of the class on whoss behalf this action was originally
institutad; that the minor plaintlffs-iatsrvsnors attend and are
aligibla to attand schools la defendant school district; that they
bring this action on thalr own behalf and on behalf of all others
similarly situated pursuant to Rule 23(a) and (b)(2) of the
- 2-
Ftdtral Rules of Civil Procedure. Members of the class oa behalf
of *h*« plaintiff-interveners sue are so numerous that joiadar of
all members is impracticable. However, there are ooasaon questions
of law and fact affecting the right of Negro students attending
school within the defendant school district to an equal educational
opportunity within a desegregated school district. The claims of
plaintiffa-intervenora are typical of the claims of the class and
plaintiff-intervenors fairly and adequately protect the Interests
of the class. Defendants have acted and/or refused to act on
grounds generally applicable to the class plaintiff-intervenors
represent, thereby making appropriate final injunctive relief in
favor of plaintiff-intarvenors and the class.
COUNT TOO
III
During the Spring, 1968 choice period, minor plaintiff-
intervenor Yolanda G. Townsend expressed her preference to attend
Uall High School, whose pupil population is presently over 99%
white, during the 1968-69 school year.
IV
On information and belief, the aforesaid ’free choice’
of minor plaintiff-intervenor Yolanda G. Townsend was rejeated by
defendants and she was assigned to Central High School, whose
pupil population is presently over 30% Negro, for the 1968-69
school year, due to the fact that Hall High School had been
declared ’overcrowded” by the defendants, and a residential attend
ance tone (within which Hiss Townsend did not reside) had bean
drawn for Uall High School.
tV
On information and belief, said attendance tone will
result in the pupil population of Hall High School during the
1968-69 school year remaining more than 99% white.
VI
On information and belief, Hall High School was delib
erately constructed in an area and its sisa was limited so that
it would normally meet the defendants' standards for a declaration
29a
Complaint of Plaintiffs—Intervenor
- 3 -
of OMrarowdinf and oo that dafandanta would ba justified In set
ting up an attendance ton# for Ball Kigh School that would roaalt
in tha mastmum amount of pupil segregation poaaiblo.
VII
On information and beliaf, ainoa 1954 dafandanta and
their pradeeaaaora in office have engaged in a construction pro-
gran and school site selection program designed to foster the
greatest amount of racial sagragation in tha schools which is pos
sible.
VIII
Minor plsintiff-intsrvenor Yolanda 0. Townsend repre
sents the class of Negro pupils eligible to attend schools operate 1
by defendants whose "free choices“ have bean or will be abrogated
through the use of attendance sones, declarations of overcrowding,
etc., in furtherance of defendants’ program (see Par. Vlt supra),
designed to prevent Negro pupils from attending predominantly
white schools.
IX
Minor plaintiff-intervenor and the class of pupils she
represents axe entitled to isucedietely be admitted to the schools
of thsir choice unrestricted by defendants' programs, customs,
policies and practices as aforesaid. See 3rown v. Board of fcduc.,
263 r. Supp. 734 (L.D. hrk. 1966).
WHKRKFOah, plaintiffs-iatervenors respectfully pray:
(1) that pending the granting of any other relief
sought, this Court enter an order requiring defendants to admit
all Negro students to the schools of their first choice, without
any limitation caused by attendance xonee, overcrowding declara
tions , etc.;
(2) that this Court grant the relief sought in the
Motion for Further Relief filed herein (see pp. 8-9 of said
Motion);
30a
Complaint of Plaintiffs-Sntervenor
- 4 -
31a
Complaint of Plaintiffs-Intervenor
(3) that this Coart allow than thair costa hsrain,
reasonable attorneys' fees, and such other, additional or alterns
tiva relief as to the Court nay appear equitable and just.
Respectfully submitted,
JOHN W. WALKER
NORMAN J. CKACHKIh
1304-3 Wright Avenue
Little Rock, Arkansas
itAROLD S. ANDERSON
Century Building
Little Rock, Arkansas
JACK GREENBERG
JAMES M. NABRIT, III
MICHAEL NELTSNER
FRANKLIN WHITE
Suite 2030
10 Columous Circle
New York, New York 10019
Attorneys for Applicants for
Intervention
-5-
G O R D O N E . Y O U N G
D I S T R I C T J U D G E
LETTER OF DISTRICT COURT DATED JULY 18,
U N IT E D S T A T E S D IS T R IC T C O U R T
E A S T E R N D IS T R IC T O F A R K A N S A S
32a
L I T T L E H O C K . A R K .
1968
July 18, 1968
Nr. Hsrschsl H. Friday
faith, wi Ilians, Friday & Bowen
1100 Boyle Building
Little Rock, Arkansas 72201
Be 1 Clark, at al v. The Board of Education
of the Little Bock School District, at al
■o. LR-64-C-155
Dear Nr. Friday*
X consider the answer of the defendants to the notion
for further relief as essentially Meaningless and an
evasion of the Board's responsibilities under the law.
A hearing on the notion for further relief is set for
Thursday, August 15, at 9*30 a.n.
Because of the Short tine between now and the new
school year, X suggest that the Board and its staff
innediately begin the fornulation of a plan for the
division of the school systen into conpuleory attendance
areas and the re~assignnent of the faculty to each
school in accordance with the ratio between the races
in the systen.
This letter shall be nade a part of the record.
Sincerely yours.
GOBDON B. YOUNG
cci Nr. John W. Walker
ORDER PERMITTING INTERVENTION
33a
xa th* u n m m i s s d is t r ic t
EASTER* DISTRICT OT ARRMTSM
WRITS** DXVXSXO*
OKLORES CLARX, it il r u n tlW I
V. No. LR-64-C-155
THV HOARD or EDUCATION OF
VWr I.ITTLF ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, it il DEFEHDASTS
v " S X D A a . TOWNSEXD, « Minor, by
net father and next friend,
SR. w. M. TOMNSERL- tt ll IMTSRV— ORS
Q > P » »
The motion for leave to Intervene as parties plaintiff
i i '»■* l-y foland* U. Townaend, et al, ia qrant ad.
n^tedi July 10, I960.
United Statee District Jnd^e
ANSWER TO COMPLAINT OP PLAINTIFFS-INTERVENORS
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
DELORES CLARK, ET AL PLAINTIFFS
v . NO. LR-64-C-155
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE DEFENDANTS
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, ET AL
YOLANDA G. TOWNSEND, a minor, by her PLAINTIFFS-INTERVENORS
father and next friend, DR. W. H. TOWNSEND;
ET AL
ANSWER
COME THE DEFENDANTS, and for their Answer to the Complaint
of Plaintiffs-Intervenors, state:
I
Inasmuch as there has been an adjudication of the issues framed
by the original pleadings (approving in all essential particulars the student
desegregation procedures being followed by the Defendants), Defendants
are proceeding on the basis that the adoption by the Plaintiffs-Intervenors
of all of the allegations of the original Complaint and subsequent pleadings
filed on behalf of the original Plaintiffs is inappropriate and, therefore,
Defendants take no action with regard thereto. With reference to the Motion
for Further Relief, adopted by the Plaintiffs-Intervenors, Defendants adopt
and hereby reassert their Answer to that Motion filed herein on July 17, 1968
to the same extent as though fully set forth at this point.
II
34a
Admit that the Plaintiffs-Intervenors attend and are eligible to
attend the schools in the Little Rock. School District and state that Plaintiffs-
Intervenors purport to proceed as a class action. However, the class involved
is not specifica lly defined and for the record Defendants deny that the Plaintiff-
Intervenors represent a class consisting of all students in the District or
a class consisting of all Negro students in the District, and deny that the
allegations or claims asserted by them are typical o f allegations or claims that
would be made by any particular group, class or segment o f students and
deny that the Plaintiffs-Intervenors fairly and adequately represent the interest
of any particular group, class or segment of students. Furthermore, Defendants
deny that they have acted or refused to act in any particular in a manner that
makes appropriate final injunctive relief in favor o f Plaintiffs-Intervenors
or in favor of any group, class or segment of students.
HI
Admit the allegations of Paragraph 3 of the Complaint.
IV
Admit the allegations of Paragraph 4 o f the Complaint except state
that as o f this time, it appears that the pupil population at Central High School
for the 1968 - 69 school year will be approximately 26% Negro. Further answer
ing, Defendants state that Miss Townsend was assigned to Central High School
on the basis of that being her second ch oice . In addition to Miss Townsend
being denied her preference to attend Hall High School, there were
other students who were denied their preference to attend Hall High School,
of which 7 were Negro and 141 were White.
V
Admit the allegations of Paragraph 5 of the Complaint with the
qualification that the figures for 1968 - 69 are not entirely final at this time.
However, it is expected that any variation will be slight.
VI
35a
Answer to Complaint of Plaintiffs-Intervenor
Deny the allegations of Paragraph 6 of the Complaint.
_ 2 -
VII
Deny the allegations of Paragraph 7 of the Complaint.
VIII
Deny the allegations of Paragraph 8 of the Complaint.
IX
Deny the allegations of Paragraph 9 of the Complaint.
WHEREFORE, having fully answered. Defendants pray that all
36a
Answer to Complaint of Plaintiffs-Intervenor
claims of the Plaintiffs-Intervenors in their Complaint be denied and the
Complaint be dismissed with prejudice; and that the Defendants have all
other relief to which they may be entitled.
SMITH, WILLIAMS, FRIDAY & BOWEN
11th Floor Boyle Building
Little Rock, Arkansas
ATTORNEYS FOR DEFENDANTS
- 3 -
37a
Answer to Complaint of Plaintiffs-Intervenor
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I, Herschel H. Friday, one of the attorneys for the Defendants,
certify that I have served a copy of the foregoing Answer upon the Plaintiffs
Intervenors by placing the same in the United States Mail addressed to
Plaintiffs-Intervenors' attorneys of record at their respective addresses.
This 24th day of July, 1968.
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
................................. - -x
DELORES CLARK, et al,
Plaintiffs, :
TRANSCRIPT OP PROCEEDINGS AUGUST 15-16, 1968
No. LR-64-C-155
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE :
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, et al, :
Defendants. :
........................................x
- - T R I A L - -
BE IT REMEMBERED, That the above-entitled matter came
on for trial before The Honorable GORDON E. YOUNG, United
States District Judge, commencing at 9:30 o'clock, p.m., on
Thursday, August 15, 1968.
APPEARANCES:
JOHN IV. WALKER, Esq., 1820 West 13th Street, Little
Rock. Arkansas, appearing for the plaintiffs.
HERSCHEL H. FRIDAY. Esq., and Joe Bell, Esq., of
Smith, Williams, Friday 8 Bowen, Boyle, Building,
Little Rock, Arkansas, appearing for the
defendants.
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C O N T E N T S
THE WITNESS DIRECT CROSS
Floyd W. Parsons 19 97
AFTERNOON SESSION - 82
Edwin M. Barron, Jr. 177 180
Defendants' Exhibits:
No. 1
No. 2
No. 3
No. 4
No. 5
No. 6
Nos . 7
No. 9
No. 10
No. 11
No. 12
No. 13
No. 14
No. 15
No. 16
No. 17
EXHIBITS
For Identification In Evident
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p r o c e e d i n g s
THE COURT: We have for hearing today some matters
in connection with the case of Delores Clark, et al, versus ti
Board of Education of the Little Rock School District, et al.
By letter I suggested to counsel for the defendants
that they take the initiative, whic^ is in accordance with th?
burden of proof which rests upon them to present their case
this morning.
First, we have pending, though, a petition to
intervene by the Little Rock Classroom Teachers Association
Mr. Warren.
MR. WARREN: May it please the Court, I was informs
by Mr. Walker a moment ago that he had not received a copy of
my petition to intervene although it was mailed to him at the
same time it was mailed to the Court here.
We do ask permission to intervene or the reason
stated in the petition -- that is, that the Mttle Rock
Classroom Teachers Association is a non-profit corporation
composed of class room teachers of the City of Little Rock
t
who teach in the Little Rock public schools, whose membership
exceeds 800 teachers. It is composed of the majority of the
white and Negro teachers teaching in the public schools of
Little Rock.
We ask that we be permitted to intervene simply
to state to the Court and state to the record, or give to the
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record, a statement in the intervention stating the request o : ‘
the Little Rock Classroom Teachers Association that the Court
enter no order which would abrogate or imperil or impair a
present existing statement in the Little Rock School Board's
Handbook of Administrative Policies, which contains a state
ment that teachers will be reassigned only at the time of the
issuance of the new contract.
I might state to the Court that there has been, anc
has been for some time, negotiations between two committees of
the Classroom Teachers Association and the Little Rock School
Board, way before Mr. Walker filed his motion in this case,
negotiations to amend that provision and to provide that
teachers shall not be reassigned or transferred except with
ninety days prior notice. This is something the Classroom
Teachers have worked for a long time. We worked a long time
ten or fifteen years, to get the provision on transfers or
reassignment that is presently existing.
We do hope tha Court, in formulating such order as
he decides to enter in this case, will bear in mind that the
provisions of this handbook are a part of the teachers'
contracts, and so recognized.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WARREN: Do I have your permission to file in
THE COURT: Yes.
written form that statement I just made?
t
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MR. WARREN: Thank you.
THE COURT: Are there any comments, gentlemen?
MR. WALKER: Yes, Your Honor.
On behalf of the plaintiffs, I would respectfully
request that the Court defer action on the motion to intervene
until such time as plaintiffs have had an opportunity to stud^
the motion that was filed. Although Mr. Warren may have
mailed a copy to me, it just so happens that my address isn’t
in the downtown area and my mail does not come until after
9:30, so I have not received it today. No harm will be given
to the intervenor's position by deferring action on this,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, I have let a number of other
people intervene in the case. I'm sure the Classroom
Teachers have an interest in the controversy. What the merit:;
of the intervention are, we are not concerned with, but I
will let them intervene and here is an order to that effect.
MR. WARREN: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: One further thing.
Mr. Walker, in chambers yesterday, I indicated tha”:
it would be all right to incorporate proceedings of previous
Little Rock cases by reference. I have considered that
suggestion overnight, and I have changed my mind about it.
I anticipate that this case will go to the Court
of Appeals. If we were to incorporate by blanket reference
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proceedings in a number of other cases going back over ten
years, no one would know what the record was. I wouldn't
know it; the Clerk wouldn't know what to send to the Court of
Appeals; and I certainly owe a duty to the Court of Appeals to
prevent them getting into that morass.
Of course, everything in the case of Clark is a
part of this record, and in the Court of Appeals' opinion
dated December 15, 1966, Judge Gibson, who was the author of
the opinion, has a history of the Little Rock cases going
back to Aaron versus Cooper in 1956. Now, that much of the
history of previous cases is, of course, in this record
because it is in the Court's opinion in this case.
If there is any thing, however, in any of the other
cases that you wish to introduce, we had better take that up
specifically and on its merits, but otherwise no one would
know where the record started and where it stopped.
Of course, also, a great many of the things that
occurred in these other cases are ancient history now, and hav
no bearing.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we would respectfully
request the opportunity to proffer at the appropriate time
such other proof or recorded transcripts as we may deem at
that time to be necessary to our case.
THE COURT: That will be all right, but I'll tell
you now I take a dim view about transcripts.
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MR. WALKER: All tight. We do, however, so we won'
waive our position, take the position that Clark is but a
continuation of Aaron; and the fact that Aaron was dismissed
by the Court and replaced by Caark is insignificant.
THE COURT: I agree with that.
MR. WALKER: We also take the position that other
actions which have been filed, even though they may be ancien':
history, have pertinence on the present predicament that the
Little Rock School District finds itself in. I particularly
call attention to this Court’s opinion in the Byrd v. Board
of Education case decided in 1965. I also call attention to
the Supreme Court of Arkansas decision. I think the styling
of the case -- and I ’ll provide it for the Court at the
appropriate time -- is Shelton v. Tucker.
THE COURT: We don't introduce into evidence
published opinions of other Courts. That is not a part of the
record. Of course, you can refer to it any way you like.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we just want to be able
to put the transcripts in.
THE COURT: You won’t put any other transcripts of
any other cases in.
MR. WALKER: We would have the opportunity to
proffer them?
THE COURT: You sure will.
Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Friday?
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MR. FRIDAY: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. FRIDAY: With the permission of the Court, I'd
like to make an opening statement in a little detail to try tc
put the issues in perspective as we see them.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. FRIDAY: The evidence will show and we feel wi]
demonstrate -- and I think this bears on what may well be an
issue as I have understood Mr. Walker's statement -- specifics
the good faith of the Board, that this lawsuit is unnecessary
and unwarranted, and if it has served any purpose, it is to
hamper the progress of the district; that the district, the
evidence will show, has proceeded properly. We will put into
the record for the Court, as we have the affirmative duty to
do, what the district has done in specific detail since the
Clark decision, which is the last decision of the Court of
Appeals, or which is the last decision in this litigation.
We will point out the deficiencies observed by the
Court of Appeals and the corrective action taken by the
tdistrict since that time in an effort to demonstrate by the
evidence that the district has been and is now proceeding
properly in the sense of a constitutionally permissive approac
under that opinion, realizing, of course, that there have been
decisions of the United States Supreme Court handed down on
May 27 of this year that affect this situation.
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We will show by the evidence -- in order to get this
in perspective -- specifically the details of notice provisions
and steps taken concerning notice, which was one area pointed
out by the Court of Appeals, and in detail the steps taken
concerning staff desegregation, which was the other area
pointed out by the Court of Appeals that required action by
the board.
We will state from the standpoint -- and I think
this will bear on the other principal issue as we see it, Your
Honor, that is, what these defendants should do for the
1968-69 school year -- we will point out the sequence of event;
to get in perspective the situation under which they operated
and under which they now find themselves. Specifically, we
will cover what this district has done since Clark in an effort
to arrive at a much desired permanent solution to the
desegregation procedures to be employed by the defendants in
the Little Rock School District.
We will put in evidence -- because we think it will
bear on the principal issue, as we see it, before the Court --
the various affirmative steps taken; and I mention now, just
to show what the evidence will develop in this regard over and
above minimum court requirements, the employment of an
out-of-state, so-called Oregon expert team at substantial cost
to the district; analysis of this and what happened to it; the
action taken by the staff concerning desegregation which
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culminated in what is commonly known as The Parsons Plan, all
of this well in advance of even the cases being taken by the
Supreme Court of the United States and abviously well in
advance of the handing down of the decision on May 27 of 1968.
We will point out what developed from the standpoint
of efforts -- and the Court of Appeals lias stated that this is
proper -- efforts at community participation and involvement
as distinguished from what is constitutionally objectionable
and that is inaction because of communtiy hostility.
We will point out what the community did with
reference to these affirmative steps that were taken by board
action. The last action in this regard was taken in March of
this year at a school election.
With that action having been taken under the then
applicable and Court-approved procedures of the district, it
was necessary to start immediately and in a very few days, anc,
by the time of the first possible meeting of the School Board
after that election, to get out the choice forms, and the
evidence will develop when they went out. Specifically, they
had to go out on April 1.
The evidence will cover in detail what is involved
in assigning 25,000-plus students and assigning the staff to
handle properly the educational requirements of 25,000-plas
students.
The evidence will develop a close tie-in between
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what you are doing with pupil assignments and what you must
do with staff assignments to meet these requirements.
The evidence will develop what is involved from the
standpoint of the many other details necessary to get this
either largest or, for all practical purposes, the largest
school district in the state underway in the short period
between April-May and September 1 by virtue of working up
curriculum and by virtue of working up all the other outside
activities that are necessary to get there.
With this background, as soon as the decisions of
the Supreme Court were handed down, the board, in recognition'
of its affirmative duties concerning the educational require
ments of this district consistent with constitutionally
permissive approaches as to pupil and staff desegregation,
appointed a committee.
We will place in evidence testimony concerning what
this committee has done, minutes of the committee's meeting
intended to demonstrate that the committee has functioned as
properly and fully and actively as possible under the circum-
• t
stances.
We will show to the Court in the evidence what I
think -- and we will let the evidence see how it shapes up on
this, Your Honor -- what I think will be the unanimous view,
at least of the board and staff in substantial principle at
least, as to the only possible, feasible alternative for
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September, 1968-69, specifically compulsory zoning. We have
maps prepared. We will present to the Court how the zones
were arrived at and will show the racial composition of the
student body in each zone.
We have formulated, detailed and we think education i
proper and necessary standards for going in staff desegregatio
to an immediate approximately 70-30 white-Negro ratio in each
school.
We will point out what effect this would have and
show how it is contrasted with the progress that has been made
under what we submit, Your Honor, as the Clark-approved
approach, at least proper up until this time and certainly
proper when teacher assignments were made last May as they
had to have been made last May, of approaching this problem
with meaningful progress under the circumstances by attrition
or new teachers rather than arbitrary assignments.
Nevertheless, we have prepared and can submit to the
Court how we would go about, if it ends up we should do this
in September, 1968, with what I would call arbitrary or man
datory staff assignments as dintinguished from voluntary
action or filling vacancies as they show up.
Now, there are understandably some divergent views
among the people who have the responsibility for running the
schools. As this Court has pointed out, and as the evidence
will show, these defendants recognize and accept the fact
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that they have the duty of running the schools, that this
Court does not and should not have that duty or responsi
bility.
They have, in this context and for this hearing,
met and taken formal action and bur proposal to the Court in
discharge, we respectfully state, Your Honor, of our affirma
tive duties concerning educational programs in a consti
tutionally permissive manner as follows, and I want to set
forth the resolution so the Court will see in advance how
we are going to direct our evidence and enable the Court at
least to see how the issues may be or should be confined.
The board takes the position -- the defendants
take the position, Your Honor, that for the purposes of sub
mission to this hearing, the staff has prepared and the
board has approved, if directed after this hearing by the
Court that this be placed into effect at this time, a com
pulsory zoning plan; and, if directed at this hearing, the
necessary steps will be taken to get this into effect for
1968-69.
tAlso, the staff has prepared and the board has
approved, if directed to be placed into effect for 1968-69,
the necessary and proper steps to accomplish staff desegre
gation on an approximate seventy-thirty ratio.
The board respectfully submits to the Court that
they, of all people, and the ataff wants a permanent solutior
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so as to get on with what ought to be their primary responsi
bility of educating all the children of this district. They
will point out to the Court the impact upon the district's
program taken, we think the evidence will show to this point
in complete good faith under the law, of changes such as
just committed to in, one and two, concerning pupil and stafi
desegregation. The evidence will detail what is involved in
this.
The defendants then take the position that they
respectfully state as they view, Your Honor, the requirement'
of the Supreme Court in an effort to get the permanent solu
tion, they want to consider and continue to evaluate, not to
delay -- they’d like to have it now as much as anyone else --
but to properly discharge their educational and legal duties
all available alternatives. They will do this. Zoning wou]
be the only available one now, Your Honor.
It, in many ways, would be the easy answer for
them right now, but in an effort to be sure that we, if
possible, get the permanent solution, they want to again lool
at these things, including even those they have already at
one time committed to, but the electorate did not see fit to
support in the then factual context. And they will do all
of this and report back to the Court no later than December
1. We want to do it and get it done and get it over with,
so that by 1969 -- but we want to do it properly --we will
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have, hopefully, the permanent solution.
It may well involve electorate involvement and
support. As the Court knows, under the law of Arkansas, there
is a March, 1969, school election that comes up, in which the
electors are called upon to approve specifically budgets, but
necessarily embodied in that what goes in to making up a
budget, Your Honor.
If the Court then -- the evidence will show it is
improper to do one without the other aside from the impact
upon properly taken, we submit, assignments as they now exist
-- if the Court sees merit in the presentation as to pupil
assignment, faculty reassignment should be taken consistent
because the two obviously tie in together, and the evidence
will dwell on this, Your Honor.
By way of summary, the district is prepared to go
ahead for 1958-59 if, in the Court's considered judgment --
and we are not putting this off on the Court -- but, if in the
Court's considered judgment, when you hear both sides, these
steps ought to be taken at this time; and we have in detail
thatwthese steps should be.
But we take the position and submit that it would
be improper at this time and premature in our effort to get
this much and long sought after permanent solution to take
those steps which are all that could be taken as this time
as are feasible. Anything else involves financial support;
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this does not.
If I might elaborate, I assume counsel would not
agree on the issues.
As we will present our case, Your Honor, if the
Court sees fit to do this, many of the issues that are attackii
or may tend to attach a zoning plan or a neighborhood school
plan or a Parsons variation or Oregon variation, which might
be or might not be what the Court will come up with, we do
represent with the expectation of acceptance with complete
sincerity -- this will be done in December -- we would be
prematurely developing a big record on issues that really
are not there.
The trial may develop in another manner, Your Honor,
but what I am really saying, we are going to present our case
on the issue of what ought to be done right now in September,
1968- 69, and do not purport to try at this time what in our
judgment ought to be the permanent solution to take effect in
1969- 70. Obviously embodied in what we are asking the Court
to do is a demonstration of what the board has done, and we
think the evidence will support they have heretofore proceeded
in utmost good faith, and will continue to do so.
I apologize to the Court, but I think it served the
purpose to fully acquaint the Court with the way we will
present our case. With such statements as other counsel cares
to make, we are ready to proceed.
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THE COURT: Mr. Walker, it is not necessary for you
to make a statement now unless you wish to.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I would like to make a stats-
ment, but I would like to reserve that until our case is
presented.
I would make one or two observations, though.
We did undertake discovery prior to this proceeding
and we sought certain information from the school district,
and we were not provided that information.
Mr. Friday stated in his statement that he plans to
make use of some of that information, and I would certainly
hope the Court would prevent the board from introducing it.
Specifically, I call attention to the report from the so-callel
committee that was appointed to study desegregation problems
of school districts subsequent to the May 27th decision of
the United States Supreme Court. We have sought that informa
tion and we have been denied access to that information.
In view of that fact, any information that would be
presented would be in the nature of surprise to us.
THE COURT: Mr. Friday.
MR. FRIDAY: If I may respond to that, of course, I
am diametrically opposed to Mr. Walker in this regard. We
have spent voluminous time taking depositions. In my judgment,
Your Honor, we have furnished him as late as yesterday after
noon everything, I thought. If I have not furnished him anythL
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I'm sorry, and we will get it to him this morning. We made
every effort to give him everything yesterday.
THE COURT: What is it that you have not been fur
nished with, Mr. Walker?
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we sought, so that we could
properly depose the members of the committee who considered
this desegergation approach, information about what their com
mittee was doing, and they took the position that they would
not give this information to us. This position was concurred
in by counsel, and it appears so in the deposition.
THE COURT: What do you mean? What information?
MR. WALKER: We don't know what the committee has
done. They have operated in secrecy.
THE COURT: Well, I don't know what they have done,
either. Are you talking about reports?
MR. WALKER: I understand that there are minutes of
those meetings that the board proposes to put into evidence.
THE COURT: Do you have minutes, Mr. Friday?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Let him have a copy of them.
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, Your Honor.
I might state, Your Honor, he asked for the board
action. I wrote him and quoted exactly in the letter. Mr.
Drummond summarized it for you in his deposition, and I stand
by both of those.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 19
MR. WALKER: We did not get to go into the details.
We only got a bare statement of it.
THE COURT: Well, if he --
MR. FRIDAY: Certainly I will furnish it, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Very well.
Let me say this. We are going to have a rotation
of three reporters reporting this hearing, and every thirty
minutes or so, we will take a brief stop for them to change.
After we get started, I'm sure that will work out easily.
Are you ready, Mr. Friday?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, Your Honor.
I call Mr. Floyd Parsons.
Thereupon,
FLOYD W. PARSONS
having been called as a witness by counsel for defendants, and
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q State your name.
A Floyd Parsons.
Q Where do you live, Mr. Parsons.
A Little Rock, 31 Nob View Circle.
Q How long have you lived in Little Rock?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 20
A I have lived here slightly more than seven years.
Q What is your present occupation or employment?
A Superintendent of the Little Rock Public Schools.
Q How long have you held that position?
A Again, slightly more than seven years.
Q Give us just briefly your background and education,
Mr. Parsons.
Include the schooling in it, and then pick it up as
quickly as possible and bring it up to your present position.
A A graduate of both the Bachelor's and Master's degree
from the University of Texas with dual majors in the fields of
sociology and educational administration, having become a
superintendent of schools some three years after graduation
from the University of Texas and having been a superintendent
of schools in excess of thirty years without having missed a
year.
Q Mr. Parsons, I want to take you, for the purposes of
our presentation, in point of time to 1966. In order to exped:.
are you aware that the board at that time --
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, some of this will be a litt"
leading, but we will try
THE COURT: That is all right. You may lead here.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q -- that the board of directors of the Little Rock
School District at that time adopted a resolution which approve
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the so-called freedom of choice under the Federal guidelines
approach to desegregation?
A Yes.
Q I hand you a document which purports to be excerpts
from the minutes of the board reflecting the adoption of that
resolution; and ask if you can identify that I have handed to
you?
A Yes, I can.
MR. FRIDAY: It is marked as Defendant's Exhibit 1,
and we offer it into evidence, Your Honor.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(Whereupon, the document heretofore
referred to was marked Defendant's
Exhibit No. 1 for identification,
and was received in evidence.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Are you familiar with the decision of the Court of
Appeals for the Eighth Circuit in Clerk versus Board of Edu
cation that was handed down in 1966?
A Yes.
Q Have you read this opinion?
A Yes.
Q Have you discussed it with me as the school board's
attorney?
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
21
A On many occasions, yes.
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IRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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Q With particular reference to the board's operations
ince that time, I want to cover with you what is done from
he standpoint of notice given and published as to the desegre-
ation procedures of the district.
Quickly, just summarize what is given and then I am
oing to hand you some documents --
THE COURT: Just a moment, Mr. Friday.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we will stipulate that the
otice the district has engaged in pursuant to the freedom of
hoice plan has been in compliance with the Court of Appeals
nd this Court and the H. E. W. requirements.
THE COURT: I think his point -- the point he is
ttempting to make is that the Court of Appeals has specified
he board should change its practices regarding notices, and tha
hey have complied with the directions of the Court of Appeals
n that respect.
MR. FRIDAY: That is correct, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you so stipulate, Mr. Walker?
MR. WALKER: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Walker.
MR. FRIDAY: In view of the stipulation, I am not
ing to encumber the record with the exhibits I planned to put
and the forms and newspaper publications.
MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right. The other major area that the Court dealt
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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with in the Clark case was faculty and staff desegregation.
You are familiar with this, are you not, Mr. Parsons?
A I am.
Q All right. Will you presently, for the record,
identify the membership, the present membership of the board
of directors of the Little Rock School District by name and
race?
A Dr. Ed Barron is president of the board, white;
Mr. Bill Meeks, W. R. Meeks, is vice chairman of the board,
white; Mr. Winslow Drummond -- I hope I have these offices
correct
Q I'm sure you do.
A •• is a member of the board, white; Mr. T. E.
Patterson is a member of the board, Negro; Mr. Charles Brown
is a member of the board, white. I have not counted -- I
didn't name Dan Woods, did I? He is a member of the board,
white.
Q All right. Now, let's deal at the administrative
level of the Little Rock School District. You have identified
tyourself.
Will you identify the top supervisory people by
position, name, and race?
A I would assume that you're talking about the deputy
superintendent and the assistant superintendents?
Q Yes.
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A The deputy superintendent is Mr. Paul Fair, white.
The assistant superintendent in charge of instruction is Mr.
John Fortenberry, white. The assistant superintendent in
charge of personnel is Mr. Marry Fowler, Negro. The assistant
superintendent in charge of business affairs is Mr. Floyd
Langston, white. And the assistant superintendent in charge
of research and pupil personnel is Mr. Don Roberts, white.
Q All right. The one who has primary responsibility
for the personnel which includes assignments, staff assign
ments, at all of the schools is Mr. Fowler, is this correct?
A That's correct.
Q Could you elaborate on what his duties are?
A Mr. Fowler's duties are directly related to personnel.
Primarily, this is not to say that he does not have certain
other office and routine duties in terms of record-keeping
and keeping of files, et cetera, but his primary responsibility
revolves around the interviewing and recruiting and the actual
employment of and assignment of a coordination, of course,
with principals and other staff members of all personnel to be
t
employed by the Little Rock public school system.
Q As the top administrative officer, will you state
to the Court what is your understanding of your responsibilities
concerning staff desegregation?
A It has been our understanding, as delineated by the
Clark case, that we have a responsibility to employ and to
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
24
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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assign without regard to race whatsoever. However, we are to
proceed to gain additional staff desegregation in our system
as much as we possibly can through the process of attrition
and on a voluntary basis.
We have proceeded in this manner encouraging both
white and Negro teachers employed in the system to agree to
teach in positions where their race is in a minority.
Q Would you state -- and I think you have not, speci
fically, on this point -- the direction that has been given
through proper channels to the assistant superintendent in
charge of personnel with reference, specifically, to the
desegregation of the staff procedures of the district? What
charge has been given?
A WTe have talked to Mr. Fowler on numerous occasions,
of course, about the affirmative responsibility of the school
board and the school administration in this regard. We have
given him total freedom to recruit and select and work in
the field of assigning teachers, requesting at all times that
he get as much staff desegregation as he possibly can achieve,
rMR. WALKER: Your Honor, at this point, I would like
for Mr. Parsons to identify the "we" he describes. I think
he is talking about himself, but I would like to know that
as the questions proceed.
THE COURT: All right.
THEVITNESS: I would identify myself in this regard,
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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specifically, but if other questions are asked concerning
the board of directors of our school system, I will be glad,
or would be glad, for individual members of the school board
to answer this for themselves.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Well, I'm going to ask you what action the board
has taken, and if the members of the board are here, they can
either state or be asked if they want to elaborate on it.
A The board of directors of our school district, as
presently constituted, has supported the concept of our
achieving as much faculty desegregation in our system as
possible. The previous board -- and I do not know that this
is necessary, Mr. Friday --
Q The previous members?
A -- the previous board before this particular board
set a rather specific amount. In 1966, they said double it
for 1967. It's hard to keep doubling anything, as you well
know. We would soon run out of something to double.
But this particular board has supported the concept
tof staff desegregation and has indicated their good faith in
the creation of a staff to -- to open Park View School by
suggesting to the administration that this staff should be a
fully desegregated staff, constituting some twenty-five to
thirty per cent Negro and seventy to seventy-five per cent
white, and this has been achieved as we open the school in
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
27
September.
Q You roughly have at Park View a seventy-thirty ratio?
A Roughly, yes.
Q When was this achieved in point of time, since you
mention it?
A Mr. Firday, I actually could not pinpoint it in
terms of time, but I would say that it was probably achieved
about a month, six weeks, maybe two months ago. We have
been working on it a long, long time.
Q It was before this lawsuit, wasn’t it?
A Yes, it was.
Q I handed you two documents, and let me get to the
specifics of this.
I have marked one for identification as Defendant’s
Exhibit No. 2, and I ask you to identify in some little detail
what is depicted on that document.
A This document is --
MR. FRIDAY: Wait a minute. I want to hand the
Court one.
THE WITNESS: All right.
MR. FRIDAY: I will hand this to the Court, Your
Honor. That one is not marked, but it is Defendant's Exhibit
No. 2. And this will be Exhibit 3.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Tell the Court what Defendant's Exhibit 2 reflects,
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Mr. Parsons.
A This exhibit reflects the history since 1965 when
this concept was first negotiated in the Little Rock School
District. This reflects the history of staff desegregation
in our school district.
Q Well, just for the record, be a little more specific.
Just thumb through it and tell what the summary shows and how
you broke it down as to the individual situation.
A This history, as I say, began in 1965-66, and pro
jects to the 1968-69 school year, both by numbers and per
centages for Negro and white pupis.
N
THE COURT: Just a minute, Mr. Parsons.
MR. WALKER: I want to be sure I am following Mr.
Parsons, Your Honor.
Which is the exhibit?
MR. FRIDAY: Exhibit 2.
MR. WALKER: All right. Have you’introduced it?
MR. FRIDAY: Not yet. He is still identifying it.
THE WITNESS: And then item two has to do with
teachers; and since that is our discussion at the' present time,
it shows that in 1965-66, there were five Negro teachers in
the system and seven white teachers in the system who were
working in positions where their race was in a minority,
moving to twenty-one-fourteen in 66-67; forty-five-thirty-thra3
in 67-68; 68-69, sixty-three-forty-seven.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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And I think perhaps this is an appropriate time to
point out that these figures represent employed classroom
teachers, employed and paid for by the Little Rock School
District. We are not involving any additional personnel
that may be under Federal programs, Title I, the whole gamut
of other programs which would increase this number materially
were they included.
Then, the important --
THE COURT: Excuse me. In looking at it, I see
undei 68-69, sixty-three and forty-seven, and then a further
figure over to the right of that of fifty-seven, forty-three.
What does that mean?
THE WITNESS: Those are percentages.
THE COURT: Oh, yes, I see. I see.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q While I think of it, let me make a similar point.
You say these are permanent new minority situation
assignments ?
A That's correct.
Q For example, what would be --
MR. WALKER: Just a minute. Let me be clear. You
said "permanent new minority assignments"?
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Don't use my words. Use your own words, and tell
the Court exactly what they are.
A I don't suppose the assignment of any teacher is ever
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
29
permanent.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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Q Full-time, would that be a better word?
A Full-time, yes, regular employees. Many of them
resign every year so we could not classify them as permanent.
Q It was my mis-choice of words. Full-time.
In addition to full-time -- and I know I am inter
rupting your sequence -- what else or what positions would
be involved in addition to this that would involve staff in a
desegregated situation?
A There are many instances. I certainly could not by
memory recall all of them, but we have music teachers and --
or at least a music teacher that I think of very quickly, a
white music teacher who is teaching part-time in a Negro
school.
We have remedial reading teachers, speech therapists,
special teachers of various kinds that are involved in inte
grated situations; a white band instructor who teaches part-
time in some white schools and teaches part-time in a school
that is all-Negro, four or five Negro teachers assigned to
assist other teachers in terms of, shall I say, teacher aides
or para-profrssional, or a Negro teacher assisting a formerly
all-white staff at Florence Crittenden Home. There are many
cases like that.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we will stipulate under
the Federal programs and some other programs, the district
has a number of Negro teachers serving as part-time in some
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positions in predominantly formerly all-white schools, and
insofar as white or Negro situations are concerned, that
situations pertains that these are mostly under Federal
programs, such as Public Law 89.10 programs.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q But they are public school programs, are they not?
A Yes, they are, and not all of them are Federal
programs. Most of them are. He is correct.
Q Can you state with any degree of accuracy -- and
Mr. Fowler is in the courtroom and I will subsequently ask
him the same question -- the numbers involved in this, Mr.
Parsons? Are these substantial numbers?
A Let me give a rough approximation.
Q All right.
A Fifteen or twenty, and I may be wrong, so I hope
you will ask someone else.
Q Let me ask you one other thing. There have been
various reports that show some variation in these figures.
Now, the first question: is this, with reference
to the 68-69 school year, a set situation, or is there some
fluctuation still in it?
A There is always fluctuation. We find that by the
time we can get a set of figures established and get them to
the typists and then get them mimeographed, we have to go back
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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very often and mark out and change some figures..
We are still in the process -- we wish this were not
true, actually, in terms of resignations -- but we are still
in the process of accepting resignations in the Little Rock
School District, not many, but a few, and will probably con
tinue to do so, that we will have to replace.
Q One other question along this line, and I am perhaps
anticipating, but I want also to get over to the Court what
is involved to make it clear even before we offer this exhibit
Look at Defendant's Exhibit 2 for 66-67, and you
will see that this reflects the total in an integrated situa
tion of thirty-five, if my arithmetic is correct.
A That's correct.
Q There have been figures that have gone as high as
fifty-two for that year. Would you explain to the Court how,
if you want to look at it in a different way, you could say
you have fifty-two, for example?
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, my only purpose is to show
it is very difficult to pinpoint when you are dealing with
something as large and complex as this district.
THE COURT: Of what item were you speaking?
MR. FRIDAY: The reflected desegregation situation
for 1966-67, showing twenty-one Negro and fourteen white, a
total of thirty-five teachers, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: This was the year -- if I remember
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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correctly, and I think I do -- that one of our elementary
schools shifted from a predominantly white elementary school
to a predominantly Negro elementary school; so where we had a
predominantly white school with probably an all-white faculty
-- I actually do not remember; let's assume at least it was
an all-white faculty -- there was no faculty desegregation
in that particular school, or we will assume there was not.
Then in this particular year, this school became
predominantly Negro instead of predominantly white, so sudden];
we had a total faculty teaching in a minority situation where
the race of the faculty was in the minority as related to the
race of the students.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Well, in these figures you haven't take advantage
of any such playing around with numbers --
A No - -
Q -- even though
A --we have not.
Q -- if you look at the school and look at the faculty
it's a very comparable situation.
A That's right.
Q All right.
A Then in addition to that, there were other problems
in the system that we have previously identified under Title
I and other positions that could very easily have brought it
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up to fifty ' or fifty-five.
Q All right. Now go ahead and finish describing what
else this Defendant's Exhibit 2 purports to reflect.
A This exhibit also reflects the resignation rate of
both white and Negro teachers who are teaching where their
race is in a minority and we find thatthe Negro teacher who
is assigned to the predominantly white school tends to stick
in that position far, far better than the white teacher who
is assigned to an all-Negro school, as reflected in the
report.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 34
Q If you know, why is that, Mr. Parsons?
A I am not sure that I know, but I will -- I think
that there are definite factors involved here that could be
identified.
One is that we have been making a conscientious
effort to get some faculty desegregation in this school system
accelerated more than we have; and we have found that about
the only way that we can place Negro teachers -- let me back
up -- white teachers into Negro schools is for some vacancies
to occur in those Negro schools.
And since Negro teachers have a way of not resignin
in the numbers or at the high percentage that white teachers
resign, what I'm saying is that Negro teachers who are employe
in the Little Rock School District, the turnover among them
is tremendously small. There is scarcely any.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 35
The increase in Negro pupil enrollment in the
district is hardly accountable for the number of Negroes who
annually go over and attend the historically identified white
schools. So we are talking about, now, trying to get white
teachers in all-Negro schools, as they exist in Little Rock
at the present time.
So, since we are not building up the faculty in
the all-Negro schools, because there is no increase in atten
dance there -- actually, there has been a decrease in many of
the schools -- the only way we can get any white faculty mem
bers in there is to transfer some Negro teachers out of the
all-Negro schools into the white schools, and this has been
done on many occasions.
Q You have been able to get some volunteers, so to
speak?
A Yes, we have been able to get some volunteers. And
I think this is a fair statement: that the employment market
for Negro teachers in the State of Arkansas is probably not
as wide as the employment market for white teachers.
Now, why is this true? I would let someone else
analyze that.
Q You have found that to be true?
A Yes, we have found that to be true, because the
Negro teacher who would resign from our system would have dif
ficulty finding, perhaps, a position out in the State. This
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being true, they have tended to hold their positions. The
white teachers, if assigned to a position that they do not liki
they resign because they can go somewhere else and get another
job pretty easily. This has been the basic fundamental fact
involved in this.
Q You are aware, then, that the same procedures --
that is, of taking established«»stafff members on the basis of
attrition or voluntary action, and here it would be voluntary
action -- and getting them assigned to another school is not
true or as true in the case of the Negro teachers going to
the predominantly white school as is the converse situation.
Do you understand what I'm asking you, now?
A I think that I do. Just let me say that we have
found greater difficulty in getting white teachers to go to
the all-Negro schools and staying there as teachers than we
have experienced in getting the Negro teacher to go to the
predominantly white school and stay there.
Q For the most part, your white teachers have been
-- I'm going to expedite now, because I didn't quite get over
what I was trying to get.
A All right.
Q For the most part, your white teachers have been
new to the system, is this right?
A This is true.
Q Well, now, why is this? Was this done then with
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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any discriminatory aspect before you?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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MR.
as a question
MR.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
WALKER: Your Honor, this is sort of too leadii
. I have not been objecting, but --
FRIDAY: All right.
8
Q Why was this done?
A This was not done deliberately. It has happened
this way, admittedly, but we have no desire that it be this
way at all. But we have found Negro teachers -- and I fear
that I am being somewhat repetitious --we have found Negro
teachers willing to go to positions in the predominantly whit':
schools.
We have not found very many white teachers who,
under our plan of attrition and encouragement, we have not
found many white teachers who were willing to accept positions
if they already held positions in our system. Consequently,
in order to implement the whole process of faculty desegrega
tion, we have been forced to employ experienced, well-qualifiec
properly trained individuals who have not been in our system,
white teachers to accept the positions in the all-Negro school:
Q Well, I want to leave that for a moment; and come
back to it, because that bears very seriously on the issue.
Let’s go back to the exhibit. I want you, so I can
formally introduce it, to finish your identification of what
this exhibit reflects.
A Well, it also reflects the new teachers employed in
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 38
each of these years, the total new teachers employed, so that
there can be a relationship between those employed in minority
situations and those totally employed. It shows on the fol
lowing page two the increase over the previous years.
Then the remainder of the report can be wrapped up,
I think, in one statement; and that is that we have this same
information that we have been explaining prepared for each
individual school camp: high schools, junior high schools,
and elementary schools.
Q The purpose of the exhibit is to reflect as complex
information as possible --
A Yes.
Q -- concerning the staff desegregation situation for
the years indicatd; is that correct?
A That is correct. What has happened in our system
since 1965 in terms of staff desegregation.
MR. FRIDAY: I will now formally offer Defendant's
Exhibit 2 into evidence, Your Honor.
(The document referred to was marked
Defendant's Exhibit No. 2 for identi
fication, and was received in evidence
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Turn to Defendant's Exhibit No. 3, or the document
that I have so marked for identification.
What is that, Mr. Parsons?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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A This, too, is a report that is entitled "Negroes
Teaching in Predominantly White Schools".
Q Well, it contains a lot of the same information in
a little different form, is that right?
A This is -- this, Mr. Friday, is basically the same
information. It's briefed down, somewhat, in a different form
and complies, I think, with the previous exhibit that has
been introduced.
MR. FRIDAY: We wwill formally introduce into evi
dence the Defendant's Exhibit No. 3.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(The document referred to was marked
Defendant's Exhibit No. 3 for identi
fication, and was received in evidence,
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, since this is one of the prin
cipal matters with which we were directed to concern ourselves,
I want now to go back in, in a little more detail, as to how
we have gone about it.
Will you state to the Court what is the- goal by way
of staff desegregation, and then you can define that goal in
either educational or legal terms, as you see fit.
A I think that the goal for which, basically, we have
been striving is to certainly get some meaningful -- and I
hope I'm not asked to define the word "meaningful" -- but some
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meaningful staff desegregation in the Little Roclc School
District and then proceed to employ and assign teachers, which
we are doing now, totally without regard to race.
Q Hell, on the assumption I have qualified you suf
ficiently as an educational expert, will you give the Coui*t --
do you have an expert opinion as to whether or not the way
you have been doing it is the proper way to start and is the
proper way to have proceeded to this point?
MR. WALKER: If it please the Court, before Mr.
Parsons answers, I would like to note our exceptions, Your
Honor. Mr. Parsons has not been qualified as an expert edu
cator. I would assume that his experience would have to be
limited to this particular situation. It would be somewhat
complex for him to be both an expert and at the same time a
defense witness in this particular case. That is no really big
problem with me, but I do want to point out this particular
bias to the Court.
THE COURT: Overruled. Proceed.
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, sir. Thank you.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Do you have an opinion, first?
A Yes. I do have an opinion.
Q All right, sir. What is it, Mr. Parsons?
A My opinion is that the educational v,'elfare of boys
and girls should at all times be of paramount concern in the
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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operation of an educational program. And because this is of
paramount concern, the race of the teacher should be totally
inconsequential.
We should employ teachers on the basis of their qualifi
cations, on the basis of their ability to teach, if we know
how to determine this. We should employ teachers on the basis
of the teaching personalities that they have, and all of the
wide range of qualifications involved in a relationship
between teacher and pupil. But the race of the teachers shoul I
not be a concern at all. We ought to get the best people we
can get.
Q All right. But now, with the end in mind of
achieving the. goal you just stated of getting some meaningful
balance in the schools, specifically, has the way you have
gone about it by attrition and volunteer action, specifically,
in your opinion, is that way the proper way from an educationa .
standpoint to have gone about it up to this point in time?
A Certainly, in order to attempt to solve some of the
problems that have been created by the past, we are convinced
that this has been the proper way to go about it. -
We would not and would not in every individual case
defend even what we have done totally on an educational basis;
but at the time time, in order to meet some of the problems
that have existed in the past, we have done this and we think
it proper to continue to do this.
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Q Well, is the fact that you are getting some numbers
-- is the fact that these are getting more substantial all of
the time, having any impact upon the possibility of getting
some acceleration by continuing to follow this method?
A I don't think there is any doubt about it. Success
ful and pleasant and rewarding experiences on the part of
some or many have been the result of others being willing to
do this thing that had not previously been done. So we have
had some very -- a great deal of acceleration, actually, in
this entire program, as the report will reflect.
Q Now, though, in all fairness, if you were going to
hit a goal with some meaningful balance -- and let's assume
that may be seventy-thirty -- isn't it going to take you
quite a while to get there?
MR. WALKER: Objection, Your Honor. These questions
are too leading.
THE COURT: I think the answer is obvious, but go
ahead and rephrase it, Mr. Friday.
MR. FRIDAY: I am leading up to a point, Your Honor.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q It's going to take you quite a while to get there,
isn't it?
MR. WALKER: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I think that is immaterial. Overruled.
MR. FRIDAY: All right, Your Honor.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parse;. ,
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THE COURT: I dldn 't say your question was initiate
I thought his objection wa s immuter.Lai.
MR. FRIDAY: Oj) , T.1 see . Thank you.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q It will take you quite a while to get there, will
it not, Mr . Parsons?
A On the basis of our present plan of operation --
Q Of attrition and VOlunteer action --
A Yes.
Q -- as distinguish: d from arbitrary assignment?
A Yes, it certainly would.
THE COURT: How long are we talking about, Mr.
Parsons?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I wish that I -- I wish
that I really knew, but I expect it would take several years
at an accelerated pace from where we are at the present time
in order to get there. And I suppose, by talking about several
years, I'm talking about four or five years, anyway.
THE COURT: Isn't this faculty problem broken down
somewhat broadly into two aspects? One is that you'started
out with a racially segregated faculty at some time
THE WITNESS: That is correct.
THE COURT: -- in the Little Rock school system.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Now you have, first, the problem of
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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converting that from a racially segregated faculty to a
desegregated faculty with your existing teachers, is that not
true?
THE WITNESS: Right. And what attrition occurs.
Resignations occur every year.
THE COURT: I gather that is one problem you have.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: After that problem has been solved, you
think that the selection of new teachers thereafter should be
on the question of the abilities of the individual teachers,
withou regard to their race.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I surely do.
THE COURT: But that would not solve the eliminotic
of the existing problem, would it?
THE WITNESS: No, not -- not if we were going to
arbitrary assignments, it would not. That's correct.
Now on the basis of resignations every year, be
assured, Your Honor, that we interview -- and Mr. Fowler does
this -- as we interview and employ teachers, we are certainly
going to interview both white and Negro and employ both white
and Negro, and assign them in positions where there is some
deliberate attempt on our part to get some Negro teachers
teaching in the predominantly or all-white schools as such
exist, and the white teachers teaching in the all-Negro school
as they now exist.
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V/e have deliberately done this, and it would be our
plan to continue to do so.
THE COURT: You have indicated that the turnover
among white teachers is higher than that among the Negro
teachers?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
THE COURT: What is the annual turnover of the whiti
teachers?
THE WITNESS: About -- about ten or eleven per cent,
maybe twelve per cent in some years.
THE COURT: And your Negro faculties?
THE WITNESS: Well, I believe we had only three out
of about thirty per cent of our faculty. I believe there were
three Negro teachers who resigned this year. I haven't con
verted that to a percentage, but it's very, very few.
THE COURT: On the ten per cent basis, theoretically
your faculty would be completely new -- now, I know it doesn't
work out that way -- but a new faculty every ten years.
THE WITNESS: That's correct, yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: But you -- if I may, I would like to
remark that you cannot -- if you employed a hundred white
teachers every year and thirty Negro teachers every year, you
can never be assured -- well, you know you can't assign the
hundred white teachers tc work in the schools that are
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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predominantly Negro and the thirty Negro teachers to work in
the schools that are all-white. It just won’t work out that
way because of specialities and qualifications and job require
ments. It can't be done.
MR. FRIDAY: With the Court's permission, let's
pursue this. I think this is important enough to fully and
frankly develop it.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr. Parsons, you could do this, couldn't you, by
arbitrarily assigning them?
A Oh, sure.
Q Well, you couldn't do it entirely, could you? You
would still have these considerations.
A There would still be unusual conditions that would
exist. For example --
THE COURT: You wouldn't assign an English teacher
to teach a math class.
THE WITNESS: Correct, sir.
THE COURT: I understand that.
MR. FRIDAY: All right, Your Honor, we will drop ths
point.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Let me go on nov and ask you this: are teachers
assigned in the Little Ro^k School District or employed in
the Little Rock School District on the basis of precise
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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assignments to particular schools and subjects, et cetera?
Do you know what I'm talking about?
A ies, Mr. Friday. Largely, this is true. This is
not to say that we haven't occasionally employed some elemen
tary teachers without specific assignments in mind for the
teacher when we employed that individual.
Q All right.
S But largely, teachers are employed on the basis of
specific assignments that are available to them.
Q Why?
A Well, this is to -- in the first place, to keep us
from employing people that we might find out later we couldn't
use, and
Q What do you mean you "might find out later you
couldn't use" them?
A Well, if we had an electronics course, for example,
out at Metropolitan Senior High School and we needed a teacher
for this electronics court, we'd be very foolish to go back
to our pool of teachers -- assuming we had employed a pool of
twenty teachers and planned to place them later on in the
system --to look for someone who is qualified in electronics,
because about nine chances out of ten, or ninety-nine out of
a hundred, we couldn't find any.
Q Well, how about the importance from the standpoint
-- based on your experience uf quality teaching -- of followin
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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this practice of employing teachers for specific assignments?
Is this important to the teacher?
A Well, we think it's tremendously important to the
pupil, and we think it's tremendously important to this com
munity and to this school system, and it's also important, of
court, to the teacher.
Q Why?
A Because of the fact that every individual should
be prepared in certain given fields, and are prepared, if they
are teachers, in certain given fields; and their assignemnts
of teaching out to be -- their field of preparation ought to
support the assignment that has been given to them, to say
nothing of the North Central Assiciation requirements, when
we get into the secondary level, where we are not permitted
by Nort Central Association accreditation nor our State
Department accreditation to assign people out of their field
of preparation.
MR. FRIDAY: Now, just to further develop this
point, and then I'll leave it, Your Honor.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Does the Little Rock School District have a, say,
negotiating relationship with an organization representing
the teachers, all of the teachers, in the Little Rock School
District?
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
48
A Yes, we do.
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Q What is that relationship?
A This relationship, which is relatively new --by
that, I'm talking about within the last two years -- this
negotiations agreement is an agreement with the Classroom
Teachers Professional Association in Little Rock and the
Board of Directors that any matters that affect the welfare of
the teachers, they will have an opportunity to sit with the
administration and the board and negotiate concerning these
matters.
And we have been in the process, for some time, of
negotiating on a package of matters concerning the welfare,
and many items other than the welfare, of the classroom teache-
who are employed in this system.
Q All right. At the time of the filing of this cur
rent proceeding, had those negotiations developed to a stage
of substantial agreement in principle?
A I would say there was full agreement in principle.
Q What was the principle agreed upon with reference
to teacher assignments?
tA Well, the principle that was presented, and a prin
ciple in which there seemed to be no disagreement, was that no
teacher employed in the Little Rock system would be reassigned
or transferred to another position or to another school withou
a ninety-day notice. Now, there were two or three exceptions
to this, but, of course, there had to be.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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If the pupil enrollment in a given school went
down to where there were not enough pupils to support the
employment of that many teachers in that particular school,
why, naturally, we would have to transfer these individuals.
Now, we might not know that until September 5th.
Q Well, also, you have been advised, obviously, this
would have to defer to any constitutional or court require
ments .
MR. WALKER: Objection, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: We certainly have, yes.
MR. FRIDAY: Well, I asked him if he had been
advised.
MR. WALKER: Well, Your Honor --
THE COURT: Overruled. I know that.
Let’s proceed. I know that.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Aside from this, and one other question only: in
order, without putting the contract in -- I think there is no
dispute -- the contract entered into with teachers includes a
provision that the policies of the board are part of it, is
this correct?
A This is correct.
Q What hss been the policy for many years prior to th
particular negotiations referred to above, with reference to
teacher assignment?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 51
A The policy has actually been somewhat more liberal
than the policy that the Classroom Teachers are now requesting
in this document, in that the present policy reads that no
teacher with, again, certain exceptions, no teacher shall be
transferred or reassigned to another position or school in
the system unless that teacher were notified at the time that
the contract for employment was offered to her, and those
contracts are usually offered in April -- occasionally in May
-- depending upon what is happening, actually, in the legis
lature .
Q But that was at a time before you had negotiations
and agreements?
A This is true.
Q Now, when were contracts awarded and assignments
made for the 1968-1969 school year?
A This was in May of 1968.
Q All right.
THE COURT: Let's take a recess for about ten or
twelve minutes.
(A short recess was taken.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right, Mr. Parsons, continuing on faculty
assignment procedures, is the policy that should be followed
with reference to the assignment of faculty related to the
pupil assignment procedures that are being followed at the
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same time?
A Yes.
Q How?
A Well, it is only natural that, for example, under
the freedom of choice plan, we cannot definitely once and for
all determine the requirements of any school in terms of
faculty until forms have been gotten out to students as they
were in April, and the results of these forms are tabulated
to determine the enrollment in each school at the elementary
level, and not only to determine the enrollment, but subsequent
to this enrollment at the secondary level, junior and senior
high school levels, there is a pre-registration to determine
the needed courses and the number of students who request or
require each of the many courses that are offered at the
secondary level in order to determine the number of faculty
members required in each school, and the qualifications of
those faculty members, especially at the secondary level.
Q Mr. Parsons, I have handed you a document marked fc:
identification Exhibit No. 4, which purports to be entitled
"Plan for Faculty Desegregation, Little Rock Public Schools";
and I’ll ask you what that document is?
A This document is the result of several administrati",
staff meetings and coordination with the Classroom Teachers
Association and the Principals Roundtable, the two professiona]
associations within the system, and it purports to set forth
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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Ci “ ^ 5text c x z o n i n g , wMdi, of course, w o u ld require e c z -
sicerable reassignment, anyway.
x tight, we ■feii.il dwell on this in a minute; but
f^r th*, -eco.d, briefly summarize what this document purports
to reflect?
A This document begins by giving a history since 1957
through the estimate of 1968-69, which is, I think, an
intelligent estimate because freedom of choice forms are in,
of what has happened in terms of the Negro students in our
system expressing choices to attend those schools that have
been historically identified as white schools:
Then it also gives a very brief report on faculty descgrcgatic
showing t’.at it began in 1965-66, and showing the numbers
involved in here, which is somewhat repetitious of previous
documents that have been introduced, or exhibits that have
been introduced.
Then there are certain quotes from the Clark case that tend to
identify the posture of the school system in relationship to
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faculty desegregation.
Then reference is made to the letter that the Honorable Judge
here wrote, subsequent to the filing of the motion, and the
two requests that were made in this letter.
And on page four of the document we list some five recommen
dations: The first four recommendations have to do with the
sequential steps that would have to be taken in connection
with developing a new plan of pupil assignment as well as
faculty desegregation, while the fifth step has to do with
some guidelines that we have proposed in terms of complete
arbitrary faculty desegregation, were we directed to do so.
Q In other words, you have made the plans and set
up the procedures as to how it ought to be accomplished,
educationally, if this course were undertaken?
A Yes.
MR. FRIDAY: There are some probably self-serving,
Your Honor, observations on the last page, but let's get it
into the testimony.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Will you state to the Court whether you think this
plan ought to be undertaken in September, 1968-1969?
A No, we think that it shouldn't.
Q Why do you think that?
A We think it should not because of the extremely
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
54
short time that we have had since the most recent Supreme
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Court ruling, for example.
Q The end of May?
A Yes, all freedom of choice forms were already out,
they had been turned in, the enrollment in each school had been
established on the basis of freedom of choice forms that had
been presented, faculty members had been employed, faculty
members had been assigned to the various schools, plans had
been made by principals, of course, are made by principals
for the offering of certain courses in keeping with the reques-
and requirements and demands of the individual student body of
that school.
Organizations have been established, both curricular, co-
curricular, and extra-curricular. Organizations have been
established -- bands, if I may use this as an example: the
band director in each school has already determined that he
is going to have four French horn players, and three tuba
players, or whatever it may be, and the changing of the student
body, and the changing of these matters at this late date
would throw a -- would present a very difficult problem to the
organization and structure of the school system, to say nothing
t
of the fact that coaches have already determined how many
halfbacks, and which halfbacks, and which tackles, and which
guards, and all these things.
But let me emphasize that the educational aspects of this are
the compelling reasons that we think it should not be done in
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
56
September, 1968, in that courses are organized, and teachers
have been assigned to those courses; and the changing of the
student body at this particular school, and the changing of
the faculty would make it extremely difficult to play checkers ,
so to speak, with these people, and get them all to fit into
the slots, and to be able to function effectively in terms of
the curriculum and requirements of one particular school over
the one where they thought they were going.
Many of the teachers have gone to summer school, have attended
institutes and have made special preparation for the courses
that they assumed, at least, that they were going to be teach
ing, and not in every instance could we guarantee at all that
you could move a teacher from one position and put her in
identically the same position in another school, because there
are so many extra duties that teachers perform, such as sponsor
ing yearbooks, school newspapers, and all these things, that
it would make it almost impossible to play checkers with these
people without a long period of time to t̂ ork these matters out.
Q This Court does not control timing. I believe you
said this chain of events started when; this chain of events
you have just described? I don't i>rant this confined to just
two w e e k s before school, is my point now.
A This chain of events really began when the Supreme
Court -- May 27th, is that date correct?
Q Let's go back to when pupil and staff assignments
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started.
A Oh, pupil and staff assignments started
Q The chain of events einboding these difficulties --
A Began when we got out the freedom of choice forms
in April, on April 1st, and tabulated the results from the
freedom of choice forms.
Q And the things you have described have been taking
place since that time on up, and what you are talking about is
now undoing that chain of events.
A They have taken place, it is in place now; or if it
isn't, it certainly should be with only a couple or three
weeks before classes actually begin.
Q In the recommendations of how to do this when it
is done, or when and if it is done, embodied participation
now from what groups or what people?
A Participation in this was by the administrative
staff, the organization of the Classroom Teachers Association,
the Principals Roundtable, and, of course, these documents
have been shared with our Board of Directors.
MR. FRIDAY: We offer into evidence Defendants’
Exhibit Number 4.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(Whereupon, the document was marked Defendants’
Exhibit 4 for identification and was received in evidence.)
THE COURT: Mr. Parsons, you've narrated the
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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problems that would occur if you did it before this September?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: What would be your problems if you did
it before next September?
THE WITNESS: The problems in terms of time would
not be so great. One of the major problems that I failed to
identify, actually, was the fact that if this were done now
in terms of the human rights of people, there would be some
of these rights, it seems to me, abrogated, because it is
entirely possible that the changing of assignments of certain
people within our system now might result -- and I'm not
saying it would -- might result in their resignation, and the
time of the year is such that a resignation on the part of any
individual novf would probably prohibit his getting another
job: and, important to us, it might prevent our being able to
replace that individual with a fully qualified teacher.
I, as I have previously testified, feel that the process of
resignations and the -- and a conscientious determined effort
to get as much faculty desegregation out of these resignations
as we can possibly get, is an educationally sound approach to
this problem; but the desegregation of faculty by declaring
every position open and just the reassignment arbitrarily of
faculty members, would not present as great a problem in
September, 1969, as it would present in September, 1968.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 59
Q All right, sir. At the risk of some repetition to
keep it in context, should or should not any major faculty
revision be geared to the pupil desegregation procedures being
followed?
A Yes.
Q This particular one v/as geared to zoning; is that
correct?
A That is correct.
Q I’m going to hand you a document that I have marked
for identification Defendant's Exhibit No. 5. This document
consists of eight pages clipped together.
Will y o n please describe what information the document pur
ports to reflect?
A The actual enrollment of the various schools in the
system between the years of 1960-61 and 1966-67, by schools,
and by race. I haven't had a great deal of time to look at
this document.
Q Take a moment and look at it.
A The third page of the document has to do with the
pupil enrollment in the secondary schools by race, by school,
with a percentage given -- I'm sure this percentage in those
schools that have been historically identified as white is
given in terms of the number of Negro students enrolled in
those schools, and that's a secondary level -- and then a
recap of the senior high and junior high and elementary, and
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then ^he grand total in terms of white and Negro as of
September, 1966.
Q All right, now, the document, for the first part
of it, seems to carry the date of 1967: the latter pages
update it through -- as of July 12, 1968?
A That's correct, 9-11-67; and then '68.
Q Just quickly for the record, can you tell me how
many Negro students are in a desegregated situation, or will
be, based on present choice forms for the next school year?
A In excess of 2,300.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, we offer this document on
pupil assignment for the years indicated as Defendant's
Exhibit 5.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(The document referred to was marked Defendant's
Exhibit No. 5 for identification, and was received in evidence
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right, now, I want to bring you -- we started
with the Clark decision before, and let's get back in sequence
of developments of what's been going on in this school district
concerning desegregation since the Clark decision.
What was the first, say, major development that occurred with
reference to an effort to get a permanent desegregation
approach in this district after the Clark decision was handed
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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down?
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A The first major effort was an effort on the part
0i ^he board which was an effort that was culminated to bring
into Little Rock a team of experts to make a careful study
oi this community and the school system in particular with a
v iev/ to making a report, including recommendations as to how
the Little Rock public school system could fully desegregate
its schools, which, of course, is the Oregon Report that I'm
talking about.
Q Well, what prompted the board, if you know, to try
to get some expert advice on a permanent solution?
A Mr. Friday, I'm not sure that I’m fully capable of
reading the reasons, but it seemed to me, and does now, that
the board at that time, as subsequent boards have been, have
been frustrated somewhat by this whole problem, and in this
frustration they said if there is some way that this problem
can be solved, let's set ourselves to the task of solving it,
and let's get an independent group in here for the purpose of
making the study, someone who doesn't know anything particular
about the past history of this community, and see what they
would recommend, and see whether or not it can be implemented;
so I think it was an earnest and a sincere desire on the part
of the board to get a study that might lead to the permanent
solution of this problem.
Q All right, I handed you a document which purports
to be excerpts from minutes of a board meeting of August 29,
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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1966, concerning the employment of the Oregon team marked for
identification as Defendants' Exhibit No. 6. Can you so
identify that?
A Yes, sir.
MR. FRIDAY: We offer this, Your Honor, as De
fendants' Exhibit No. 6.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 62
THE COURT: It will be received.
(Whereupon the document referred to was marked
Defendants' Exhibit No. 6 for identification, and was received
in evidence.)
THE COURT: It was before the Clark case.
MR. FRIDAY: You are correct, Your Honor. I mis
stated that. It was before. The Clark case was in December,
1966.
MR. WALKER: The Clark case was pending on appeal
at that time.
THE COURT: Of course, it was.
MR. FRIDAY: Was it actually before the -- the
record will speak for itself.
THE COURT: I'm sure it was pending in the Court
of Appeals, in August, the 29th -- probably under submission,
Mr. Friday.
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, sir.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q What did the Oregon plan cost you?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 63
A $24,212.00, I believe; about $25,000.00.
Q Let me hand you a document and ask you to identify
it, and determine in a minute whether or not we are going to
introduce it. What is it?
A This is the report of the team from the University
of Oregon at Eugene.
Q It consists of 203 pages?
A Yes, sir.
Q Just for the record, you have studied and summarizei
this report: I want to get in the record your best summary, as
brief as possible now, of what the Oregon team reported. I
think it is important here to keep the sequence of events
here as to what this board has been considering.
A I hope you realize how difficult it is to summarize
a 203 page report.
Q But you have spent a great deal of time on it, Mr.
Parsons.
A This report, basically, proposed the re-structuring
of the grade levels in the Little Rock public school system,
the creation of -- or the introduction to Little Rock of what
could be called the middle school concept. It involved creatin'
one senior high school for the city, which was -- could have
been classified as an educational park concept involving some
5,000 or plus students in this one senior high school; involved
the closin; down of Mann High School, and the paring of Mann
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 64
with Metropolitan High School, at a cost of all of this of --
at a cost in excess of $10 million for new structures that
would have to be built in order to implement this particular
plan.
Incidentally, it might be pointed out to the Court at this
time that $10 million was just exactly the amount of bonded
leeway that we had in this district, so it could not have been
more than tills. It failed to do one thing that came out of the
directions that were given to the Oregon team, and that is
that it said nothing about the elimination of the all-Negro
schools in this system, other than the Horace Mann School.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we are going to interpose
at least an objection and state that the Oregon report speaks
for itself. Mr. Parsons' comments --
THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Did any member of the board, or any member of the
staff, participate with the Oregon team in the preparation of
this report?
A In the preparation of the report, none whatever.
However, we submitted to the Oregon group any statistics they
requested. Any statistics they requested, we submitted to them
Q Did you prepare for the Board your analysis of
your position concerning the relative merits of the various
proposals in the Oregon Report?
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A Yes, I did.
Q And that is part of the official minutes?
A I would assume it is, yes.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I am going to offer this
as Defendant’s Exhibit No. 7.
THE COURT: It will be received,
(Whereupon, the document was marked as Defendant's
Exhibit No. 7 for identification, and was received in evidence
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q I am now going to hand you a document which purport:;
to be your report on the Oregon Report directed to the board
of directors, and ask you if that is a copy of it. It's marked
for identification Defendant’s Exhibit No. 8.
THE COURT: Eight?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: What was seven?
MR. FRIDAY: The Oregon Report itself, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, this is my report concerning
the Oregon Report.
MR. FRIDAY: We offer this as Defendant's Exhibit
No. 8.
THE COURT: It will be received.
DIRECI EXAMINATION - Parsons 65
(Whereupon, the document was marked as Defendant’s
Exhibit No. 8 for identification, and was received in evidence
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Then, for the record, just briefly try to summ;rite
the areas which you found objectionable or the staff found
objectionable.
A This is really -- this report really constitutes
my objections.
Q All right. Briefly state them.
A I disagreed slightly with the plan proposed for
the pairing of Mann and Metropolitan Schools, really submitting
to the board a departure from that plan as submitted by the
Oregon team somewhat, but basically and essentially agreeing
with it.
THE COURT: May I interrupt?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, Your Honor.
lHE COURT: Looking at No. 8, it appears to be a
report from Mr. Fowler to Mr. Parsons.
MR. FRIDAY: I apologize, Your Honor, I have handed
you the wrong document, then.
This is the document, you are correct.
THE COURT: You don’t have an extra copy?,
MR. FRIDAY: I'm sorry, I don't.
THE COURT: That's all right. Let him use it.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Go ahead.
All right. The alteration of the freedom of choiceA
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 67
plan, the complete alteration of the freedom of choice plan
as recommended in the Oregon Report, would have required a
rather extensive -- development of a rather extensive system
of transportation in the system.
I did oppose in this report the complete abandonment of the
neighborhood school concept, stating in the report that there
might be very convincing arguments that would favor the
abandonment of the neighborhood school concept at the high
school level, but that I was a proponent of the neighborhood
school concept at the elementary level.
As I said in the report, I found no real evidence that would
support re-structuring grade organizations as a means to
achieving the desired end in terms of the assignment that was
given to the committee.
The Oregon Report went into some detail as to the methods to
be used in getting Negro pupils into the predominantly white
schools, but it was rather conspicuously silent on how to get
any white pupils into the Negro schools. To do this, as we all
know, ttfould ultimately, we think, create a serious financial
problem for this community because we would begin to abandon
schools on the east and have to build more and more schools
on the west.
Q What was the price package that would involve
community financial support put on the report by the Oregon
team?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION
68
A A little in excess of $10 million.
Q You think that was a conservative --
A I think it was extremely conservative. To have clone
v/hat they outlined would have cost materially more than $10
million.
Q Now, to expedite, Mr. Parsons, this Oregon Report
was widely distributed in the community, isn't that correct?
A Yes. One of our local newspapers, the Gazette,
Carried die report verbatim in their daily newspaper.
Q Did it prompt a good bit of community activity and
discussion?
A Yes, very much. That's putting it mildly.
Q At least what you heard, was it favorable or un
favorable?
A What I heard was either favorable or unfavorable,
yes.
Q To bring you on down without getting on that, I
hand you a document marked for identification Defendant's
Exhibit No. 9, which purports to be excerpts from the minutes
of the board meeting August 31, 1967, and ask you if you cant
identify that?
A Yes, this is an excerpt from the board of directors'
regular meeting on August 31.
Q What action did the board take at that point which
sort of culminated the Oregon Report and moved over into what
- Parsons
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DxRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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we will now get into as the Parsons Report?
A Subsequent to m; expressed opposition to the
implementation of many of the recommendations of the Oregon
Report -- not all of them, but many of them -- the board of
directors at this meeting on August 31, by unanimous action,
directed the Superintendent of Schools to prepare a long-range
plan for desegregation of the Little Rock School District wit]
emphasis to be placed on the secondary level for the 1968
school year and to submit this plan not later than January 25.
Incidentally, I think it was submitted prior to the deadline.
Q All right. It reflects, I believe, Mr. Patterson
made the motion, Mr. Coates seconded, and the board unanimousIt
adopted it, directing you to proceed as prescribed?
A That's correct.
MR. FRIDAY: We offer this into evidence, Your
Honor, as Defendant's Exhibit No. 9.
THE COURT: It's received.
(Whereupon, the document heretofore referred to
was marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 9 for identification, and
was received in evidence.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Did you proceed as directed, Mr. Parsons?
A Yes, we did.
Q What did you do?
A Well, I hope we thought for awhile, and I think we
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did, about the various types of possibilities that might comply
with the directive that had been given to us by the board of
directors; and using certain individuals on our staff --
especially would I refer to Don Roberts, and I would refer to
Mr. Lamar Deal, who did a great deal of the map work under
our direction and Mr. Roberts preparing all of the tables and
my writing the subjective portions of the report -- after much
discussion and many meetings, we drafted a report and submittec
it and called it the Desegregation Report for the Little Rock
Public Schools.
Q All right, I am going to hand you a document which
has been marked for identification Defendant's Exhibit No. 10,
entitled Desegregation Report, Little Rock School District,
consisting of some 79 pages and ask you if that is the so-
called Parsons Plan?
A Yes, this is the document.
MR. FRIDAY: I'm going to offer this in evidence,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(Whereupon, the document heretofore referred to
was marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 10 for identification, ard
was received in evidence.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Again, briefly for the record, describe ;;hat you
have done in this proposal.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 70
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 71
A l.e began our writing by identifying certain problems
within our community. We expressed some concepts that were
ours and we explained very clearly that these were ours and
not the board s and not anyone else's; and then we proceeded
at the direction of the board -- by the direction, I am talking
about the motion that was made -• we proceeded to draft a plan
chic would completely, in our judgment, desegregate the senior
high schools in the Little Rock School District,
ih^s was to be achieved through the process of what might be
called strr.p zoning from east to west, the closing down of
the all-Negro high school on the east side, building additions
to both Park View and Hall, and strip zoning Hall, Park View,
and Central High School in order to achieve a reasonable ratio
of the races in these three high schools.
In addition to the high school plan, upon leaving the Mann
High School building vacant, we recommended the creation of
what we called the Alpha Complex, which would have been a
creative and innovative elementary school in grades one
through six, enabling us to close four buildings on the east
aide of Main Street that had long since ceased to be, functions
and adequate to carry on a good educational program, and this
building would have resulted in the creation of a reasonable
racial ratio at the elementary level in this particular section
of the city.
In addition to this, we suggested the creation of the Beta
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Complex, which involved the Garland, Lee, Stephens, Franklin,
and Oakhurst Schools - five schools - making a complex out
of these five schools because one of these schools was all-
Negro, the Stephens Elementary School, and the others were
predominantly white; and by dividing these schools up and
offering grades one, two, and three in a couple of buildings
and grades four, five, and six in tv/o of the other buildings,
and using the fifth building as a complex core building, we
would have achieved a reasonable racial balance within this
particular area of our city.
V.e did not in this report even purport to solve all of the
desegregation problems in the Little Rock School District. We
made it very clear in the report that we didn’t claim this
for the report. We did claim for the report, however, that it
would make tremendous inroads into the problems that do exist
and I still contend that it would have done this.
We did not attack the junior high school problem at ail. A
solution for this at that time escaped us, and I'm not sure
but that it still escapes us. However, we do have some ideas
that may come out lator in this hearing. I do not know.
Q Mr. Parsons, I think it is important that the record
properly reflect the time consumed by you and the staff and
the various alternatives considered. I don’t want a great deal
of detail but I want the record proper in this regard.
Briefly, how do you go about arriving at what you set out in
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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the Parsons Report?
Kell, we sat down and talked and v/c studied --
MR. WALKER: Excuse me, Your Honor, v/e would stipula
that Mr. Parsons and his staff spent a considerable amount of
time in preparing the Parsons Plan.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. FRIDAY: V/e will accept that, Your Honor.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q To move on, did the board take action on this
report?
A Yes, they did.
Q I hand you a document marked for identification
D&xendant's Exhibit No. 11 which purports to be a meeting of
the board of directors held on January 10, 1968, dealing with
this mat t.er, and ask you if that is a copy of the minutes of
the beard?
A Yes, these are the minutes of the board on January
-- the board meeting on January 10.
Q The matter precisely before the board to expedite .
was to approve the budget to go to the electors?
A Yes.
Q All right. Will you look at which I have just
handed you and tell the Court just what action the board did
take on this report. I think you will find it over on page
seven. Flip over to page seven and you will get to that part
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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of it.
A All right. The board adopted the proposal to call
a bond issue of $5,176,000.00 which, it was clearly understood,
'would be to support and implement the plan that had been
submitted and to propose a millage rate of fifty mills.
Q The purpose of the proposal being to implement the
desegregation report of the superintendent. I take this to be
approval of the report and submission to the electors.
A Yes.
MR. FRIDAY: We offer into evidence, Your Honor,
Defendant's Exhibit No. 11, consisting of eight pages.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(Whereupon, the document heretofore referred to
was marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 11 for identification, and
was received in evidence.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Bo you know whether there was community involvement
in this desegregation plan?
A I am fully aware of the fact there was a great deal
iof community involvement, yes -- not in the preparation of the
plan, none whatsoever.
Q I understand, but in an effort to get community
education and support and participation?
A Yes.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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Q Summarize it, briefly.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 75
A Well, there were organizations and meetings called
all over the community. We proceeded to make transparencies
and slides and took these to many, many meetings. I personally
-- I think I made 52 or 54 speeches in support of this plan.
After the vote was taken, I calculated that I lost about 120
votes every time I spoke, but I did speak on many, many occasi-i
as did Mr. Roberts and other members of our staff. We never
did refuse a request to appear, and we were appearing sometime
as many as three and four times daily.
Q All right, when was the election in 1968 at which
the electorate passed on the submission to them?
A It was in March. I do not have the day.
Q I believe the second Tuesday, but that is immaterial
In March, 1968?
A In March.
Q What were the results of the election?
A The result was that the proposal that was submitted
by the board was defeated by the electorate.
Q The electorate did not furnish the financial support
for the board-approved plan, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q Now, I believe you have testified that within a few
days after that you had to proceed with the assignment procoduv
for this year?
A On April 1st.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 76
Q And I think you have covered what’s happened since
that time.
A Yes. On April 1, we were required to get out the
freedom of choice plans.
Q All right, Mr. Parsons, during the process of this,
and I direct this to you as Superintendent, did you consider
a zoning approach to solving the desegregation difficulties of
the district as you listed them in that report, among other
alternatives?
A I'm not sure that I have your time.
Q When you were making up what culminated in the
Parsons Plan.
A Oh, yes, certainly we did, many different types of
zoning plans.
Q Mr. Parsons, at my request and at the board's
request, have you prepared a plan for the desegregation of
the Little Rock schools based upon compulsory zoning?
A Yes, we have.
Q All right.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I have you a set made.
Maybe you would rather look at this.
THE COURT: If I had a small set, maybe I could
m&.-k on it and make some notes on it.
MR. FRIDAY: Yes sir, we have it for that purpose.
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, will you be able to see the
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big map?
MR. WALKER: I have a copy, Your Honor.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr. Parsons, with the assistance of Mr. Roberts
and without my asking you precise questions, I am going to
ask you the general questions to explain the proposal that you
prepared to the Court.
THE COURT: Are you going to identify that?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, sir.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q We have now placed on the easel a map which is
identified for identification as Defendant’s Exhibit No. 1 2 ;
and you are now directing your remarks to Defendant’s Exhibit
No. 12, is that correct?
A Yes.
(Whereupon, the map heretofore referred to was
marked Defendant’s Exhibit No. 12 for identification.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right, what is Defendant's Exhibit No. 12, and
take it from there?
A This is the -- this is a map
MR. FRIDAY: It will be marked ’’Elementary" on
yours, Your Honor.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
DIRLCi EXAMINA1ION ~ Parsons
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Q Go ahead now.
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DIRECi EXAMINATION - Parsons
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A This is a map shoxving proposed zones for compulsory
zones for the Little Rock School District in terms of elemenfca *)
schools. On this map, the zones that are drawn have followed
the direction that has been given to us by our school board,
v/hich, in effect, was that we would prepare a map showing
elementary school zones, we would incorporate within the lines
or each zone as much desegregation as we possibly could with
out creating undue transportation and other burdens upon the
people who reside within these zones and the children who
would be required to attend those schools.
We have also shown on this map the number of white and the
number of Negro pupils in each of these zones, according to th'
latest records that we have available to us, with the full
knowledge, of course, that there is an in-migration and out
migration constantly, I'm sure, in all of these zones.
This is what Defendant's Exhibit No. 12 is, white and Negro
in each zone.
Q Then you can look at Defe dant's Exhibit No. 12 and
for the elementary level, based on this zoning, see the racial
rake-up of each school, is that right?
A That's true.
MR. FRIDAY: I will not burden the record at this
time to read all of these in, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
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Q I air. now placing the junior high map, which we will
mark for identification Defendant’s Exhibit No. 13.
(Whereupon, the map heretofore referred to was
marked Dea.enuant' s Exhibit No. 13 for identification.)
A Defendant’s Exhibit No. 13 is a map showing the
junior high school zones, as proposed, drawn cn the basis of
the same concepts that have been previously expressed and
showing also the racial composition according to the latest
records available to us that v«e would find in each zone, white
and Negro.
Q All right. There would be actual integration in
every junior high school, is this correct?
A No.
Q Where would there not be?
A There would not be, according to present records,
any Negroes at all in Forest Heights Junior High School. There
would be 908 white children and zero Negro children. In every
other school that has been historically identified as white,
there would be Negro children and in every school that has
been historically identified as Negro, there would be white
children.
Q I’m now placing, Mr. Parsons, a map for the senior
high schools that will be marked for identification as
Defendant's Exhibit No. 14.
(Whereupon, the map heretofore referred to was
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 14 for identification.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Proceed to comment to the senior high school.
A Defendant's Exhibit No. 14 is a map dividing the
Little Rock School District into four senior high school zones,
leaving out the fifth senior high school which has been
traditionally and still is, a system-wide high school, and we
are speaking of Metropolitan, which is a vocational and
technical school and achieves its enrollment through the proce ;
of requests and testing of vocational aptitudes on the part of
students. There are four high school districts, Mann High,
Central High, Park View and Hall.
Q To show the contrast quickly, what would be the
racial composition of Hall High School?
A 1,408 white students, three Negro students.
Q What would be the racial composition of Mann High
School?
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, we went further and there
are a couple of alternatives that we had difficulty choosing
f
b e t w e e n , and I am going to let him put those on. I don't know
if they are in the little maps or not.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, before we proceed, there
is one thing unclear to me from the introduction and that is
whether Park View was listed as a junior high school or senior
high school.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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THE WITNESS: Listed as a senior high school here.
MR. WALKER: On the second map, it's listed as a
junior high school, too. I wonder if that is a mistake.
MR. FRIDAY: It's a mistake if it is.
MR. WALKER: That’s what your map shows, Your Honor
THE COURT: I see Park View School there.
MR. WALKER: Does that figure refer to Park View or •
MR. FRIDAY: Let’s go back and make it plain.
THE COURT: I’ll tell you, Mr. Friday, it’s 12:00
o'clock. Maybe this would be a good time to break.
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And you can clarify the record after
lunch.
MR. FRIDAY: All right.
THE COURT: We will adjourn until 1:30.
(Whereupon, at 12:00 o'clock noon, the above-
entitled proceedings were in recess to reconvene at 1:30
o ’clock p.m., the afternoon of the same day.)
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AFTERNOON SESSION
* 2
1:30 p.n .
Thereupon,
FLOYD W. PARSONS
having been previously called as a witness, and having pre
viously oeen duly sworn, resumed the stand and was further
examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Resumed
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr. Parsons, just before lunch, there appeared that
there might be some apparent confusion as to the schools on
the exhibits you had just covered, being Exhibits Nos. 12, 13
and 14, I believe.
Will you point out that there is no discrepancy on the exhibit,
we ha'/e introduced, and if there is any differences because of
the little maps?
A There are no discrepancies in the maps that Your
Honor has and Mr. Walker has, if you will pay no attention to
the stars that exist on these maps -- these are blown-up maps
out of the Parsons Plan, actually, where these stars were
meaningful -- and pay attention only there to the color codes.
For instance, on the junior high schools map, you would pay
no attention to that star that says "Park View" on that map.
You could "x" it out, if you wish to, and you could "x" out
the others, and merely use the squares that are colored there.
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Q Take, for example, Defendant's Exhibit 13, there
appear to be yellow squares.
A Right.
Q Are those schools?
A Those are the schools that we propose on these maps .
THE COURT: Mr. Parsons, is Park View meaningful?
The word "Park View"?
THE WITNESS: No, the word "Park View" is not
5Beani.ngfux there. It will be meaningful on the senior high
school zones, lour Honor, but not on the junior high school or
elementary zones.
THE COURT: Is there any other word but the Park
View School that should be stricken? Is there any other phrase
but that should be stricken?
THE WITNESS: No, that is the only one that should
be stricken.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Let's take, for an example, Mr. Parsons, Defendant':
Exhibits13, junior high areas, where there appeared there mi , h .
be some confusion, and let's name for the record, starting at
the far left-hand of this exhibit as you face the exhibit. I
really do not want any confusion.
There is one marked with the coding underneath "N-2, W-808".
What is that school?
DIRECi EXAMINATION - Parsons
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A I hope I can tell you. That should be -- that is
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Henderson Junior High School.
Q Go immediately up to the topmost
A Forest
Q Just a minute, let me get this in. -- inhere it
says "N-O, W-908". What does that mean?
A Forest Heights Junior School.
Q And immediately below that, where the coding is
"N-62,W-85S".
A That is Southwest Junior High.
Q Proceeding to the right --
THE COURT: Just a minute. I didn't get that.
THE WITNESS: Southwest, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Where is that?
MR. FRIDAY: That's where the coding is "N-62,
W-859".
THE COURT: Now I see it.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Noiv proceed again toward the right near the top
where the coding is "N-65, W-672". What is that?
A Pulaski Heights Junior High.
Q Proceeding on to the next one, it's coded "N-398,
W-471".
A West Side Junior High.
MR. FRIDAY: Do you have that one, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I have Central. That Central should
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
be stricken.
TLE WITNESS: Yes, it should on the junior high map
where the
THE COURT: Is Dunbar now?
MR. FRIDAY: Well, it should be West Side right
before that, \our Honor. Let me have yours and. I am going to
ask him to write.
THE COURT: Now I see West Side.
MR. FRIDAY: All right.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Proceeding on to the right as you face the exhibit
the next coding is "N-800, W-79". What is that?
A Dunbar Junior High.
Q And the furthermost school on the right where the
coding is "N-705, W-136"?
A Booker Junior High.
Q That’s all the junior highs?
A Yes.
Q All right, now let's go, Mr. Parsons, to Exhibit
No. 15 which is identified Alternate Junior High Are'as, and
will you please describe what this exhibit depicts.
A We feel that *vorthy of study; it requires more
study, of course, than we have put into this at the present
time, but in the process of dividing this district into
compulsory attendance zones, we identified, of course, certain
DIRF.CT EXAMINATION Parsons
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1 problems that do exist in the district and one of the areas
where we discovered a problem was the general area around
what was identified in the Parsons Plan as the Beta Complex
Area m general, where there is one all-Negro elementary
school, Stephens Elementary School.
T).is Stephens Elementary School has had a decreasing enrollment
over the past several years, decreasing rather rapidly, in fact .
And for further study and future study, we did get the possiblv
idea that perhaps this school should be closed as an elementary
school and this should be the base for the beginning of a new
junior high school where we are convinced a new junior high
school is needed in this area. We have approximately twenty
classrooms there. We probably do not have enough land. Certain]y
science laboratories, music rooms, a gymnasium and other
facilities would have to be added to the present structure,
but we think it is worthy of some study, the possibility of
creating a junior high school zone around the general area of
Stephens Elementary School.
(Whereupon, the map heretofore referred to was
marked Defendant’s Exhibit No. 15 for identification.)
Q On this exhibit, so the record will be clear, you
are talking about the school coded --
A "N-215 , W-688."
Q Go ahead. What else is on the exhibit, and I want
to ask you a question or two about it.
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A Well, carried on the exhibit are two other junior
high schools showing what would occur in those junior high
school zones if this plan were put into effect and we are
talking about Dunbar and Booker as they appear there, Dunbar
being "N-701, W-224"; Booker being "N-715, 1V-136".
Q So there will be no confusion, in the area outlined
in red, coded "N-701, W-224", there is a yellow square and a
green square. Which one are you talking about?
A We are talking about the green square.
Q What is the yellow square?
A The yellow square is West Side, the present West
Side Junior High School; and I think it is worthy of some
comment perhaps that if you will notice the three green dots,
with reasonably equal distribution between the three, among
the three, where if
Q Wait a minute. For the record, which three green
dots are you talking about?
A I am talking about the green dots in the "N-215,
17-688" and the green dot in the "N-701,224" and the green
dot in "715 and 136".
Q All right, go ahead.
A You will notice an almost equal distribution in
terms of distance among these three green dots. You will also
notice, if you were to place the yellow dot -- if it were
green, \̂ hich is West Side Junior High School now, and Dunbar
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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Junior High is also in operation -- that you would have two
junroi high schools -- we do have junior high schools within
a very few blocks of each other.
Consequently, by converting the Stephens Elementary School
and building additions to that which would require, of course,
money, we could get a better distribution of junior high
school buildings in order to serve junior high school pupils
in a more equitable manner.
Q Not to repeat your testimony, but you have testifie i
as to the grade problems confronting you at the junior high
level,
A Yes.
Q Now, why could you not put this alternative into
effect immediately, specifically September, 1968; and by this
alternative, I mean the one you have just testified about on
Defendant's Exhibit No. 15?
MR. WALKER: I don't think that he testified that
he couldn't put this alternative into effect. He testified
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right, could you put it into effect immediately?
A It would be most disruptive to do so.
Q Well, doesn't it take some new building?
A Oh, you're talking about --
Q Defendant's Exhibit No. 15.
A It would be impossible, of course, because we
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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would have to have a gymnasium, science rooms, music rooms,
et cetera. It would be impossible.
Q Ihis means, i£ you are going to consider this, you
would have to have some money and community support.
A That's right.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, would you instruct Mr.
Friday not to lead the witness?
THE COURT: Well, I didn't think it was very
material there at the last.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Let me put up now Defendant’s Exhibit No. 16
marked "Alternate Elementary Areas" and ask you to describe
Exhibit No. 16.
A These areas that are marked on this map show what
could occur if Stephens Elementary School were, in effect,
converted to a junior high school and built of sufficient
size to absorb the junior high school enrollment in that
generally immediate area leaving West Side Junior High School,
the West Side Junior High School building, out of our junior
high complexes entirely.
And this map shows what would occur if we converted West
Side Junior High School after completely remodeling -- which
would be required, of course -- if we converted West Side
Junior High School to a large central city elementary school,
permitting us to close down certain elementary schools in the
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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central city, increase the process of integration in these
schools and changing the elementary school district lines as
originally proposed to comport with the new lines required in
order to get a reasonable pupil balance if West Side were
converted to an elementary school.
(thereupon, the map heretofore referred to was
marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 16 for identification.)
Q Is this alternate then contingent upon the other
alternate which is depicted on Defendant's Exhibit No. 15?
A We could not make an elementary school out of West
Side without first making a junior high school out of Stephens.
Because of the problems of remodeling, there are certain
sequential steps that would have to be taken in this whole
process of making this conversion.
Q Could this be done in September of 1968?
A No, it could not be done in September of 1968.
Q Why could it not?
A Because creating an elementary school in the West
Side building is contingent upon creating a junior high school
in the Stephens building; and we can’t create a junior high
school in the Stephens building until such time as additions
arc built and we do not have funds approved nor allocated for
a project of this nature at the present time.
Q If -- I am going to ask him a couple of if-y
questions and then I'll be through -- for the purpose of the
DIRECi EXAMINATION - Parsons
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issue befo;e the Cour^, if you had funds which would take
community support, would you state to the Court that, if you
were going to zoning, these alternatives would be preferable
to the presentation you made originally on Defendant's
Exhibits 12, 13, and 14?
Do you understand my question?
A Yes, sir,
I would not be in a position now to say that this is the
solution to the problems in this particular area. These have
actually arisen in our minds within the last few weeks. Con
sequently, they need more study and they need more analysis
in our judgment in terms of pupil enrollment, shifts in
population, in-migration and out-migration, et cetera.
Q But if you were going to zoning, you are testifying
these are necessary considerations, is that right?
A We are not convinced at the present time that
zoning, as presented in the exhibit number whatever it was, is
the total answer to this problem, so we need additional time
to study this and perhaps several other possibilities that
might present themselves to us.
Q All right. Now, Mr. Parsons --
THE COURT: Are you leaving the maps?
MR. FRIDAY: Sir?
THE COURT: Are you leaving the maps?
DiRIiCT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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MR. FRIDAY: Yes, sir, and I want to formally offer
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inlo evidence, Your Honor, Defendant's Exhibits 12 through 16,
which are the maps.
THE COURT: All right, they are received.
(Whereupon Defendant's Exhibits Nos. 12 through 16
previously marked for identification were received in evidence
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, I have just handed you a document
which is marked for identification at the top Defendant's
Exhibit No. 17, which purports to be a resolution and recites
on the second page that it was adopted the 15th day of August,
1968.
Is this a copy of a resolution that was adopted this date?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, I notice that it is typed in as unanimously
adopted. I am advised that there was one member who abstained.
Is this correct?
A That is correct.
Q But otherwise all votes that were cast were
favorable?
A That is correct.
Q Was the board in full attendance?
A No, there were six members present, one being out .
Q Who was that?
A Winslow Drummond.
Q He was out of the state?
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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A Yes, out of the state. Out of the United States,
I believe.
Q Yes.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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MR. WALKER: Did you say unanimously adopted?
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q I pointed out one member abstained of the votes
cast. The abstaining member was Mr. Patterson?
A Mr. Patterson, yes.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I am going to offer into
evidence Defendant's Exhibit No. 17, which is the resolution
just described.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(Whereupon, defendant's Exhibit No. 17 was marked
for identification, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, a couple more questions.
Do you have a position as the chief administrative officer of
this district as to whether the zoning plan depicted, exclusir
of the alternates on the exhibits that were just turned in, o
you may include them if you want to, should be placed into
effect in this district in September, 1968?
A No, in my judgment, they should not be placed into
effect in 1968.
Q Will you state to the Court why they should not
be placed into effect?
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A I feel that there is going to be some repetition
in this.
Q Well, don’t -- just say where you have testified
and the Court will pick it up.
A Well, we certainly testified concerning this in
connection with the fact that freedom of choice forms are
already out, back in, and assignments
Q The disruptive effect?
A The disruptive effect, that is right.
Q In addition to the disruptive effect of that
that this or any change would have on present assignments,
why should you not do it in 1968?
A Well, we think there is another good reason which,
too, will be somewhat repetitious in that we are not --we arc
not convinced, as we said here today, that strict geographical
zening is the best answer to the problems that do exist in
this community; and we feel that every time we study this
matter, new ideas and new possibilities present themselves
to us; and there is little doubt in our minds but that; given :
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specific time to study the effects of zoning and the possible
departures from zoning that might be more effective in terms
of greater desegregation in our schools and implementing our
educational program, could result in having a little additional
time to study.
Q You will notice that the board's resolution
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
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DIRECT EXAMINATION Parsons 95
requested the Court until December 1, of 1968?
A Yes.
Q Do you feci that this much time is needed and that
you can come in with a proposal by December 1, 1968?
A Yes, we do.
Q Yes to both of them?
A Yes.
Q All right.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I have one exhibit that
probably has some information in view of the original offering
that may be beneficial to one or the other and I am assuming
John would not object if I put it in the notice that did go
out April 1, 1968 which does reflect the situation that will
exist next year and I am going to offer it as Exhibit 18.
We will offer this as Defendant's Exhibit No. 18, Your Honor.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(The document heretofore referred to was marked
Defendant's Exhibit 18 for identification and was received in
evidence.)
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, just one second. I have
one matter.
(Discussion off the record)
MR. FRIDAY: That's all we have on direct, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Walker.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I would like to reserve
e.:aimiij.ng this witness, so that we can make our case in a
precise and orderly fashion and call him back for examination
after their whole case has been put on.
THE COURT: Mow many other witnesses do you have,
Mr. Friday?
MR. FRIDAY: I have one staff witness, and I'm
going to put on for very limited purposes the board members,
which examination will go very quickly, Your Honor, depending
entirely upon the cross.
I am trying to confine this, as I have stated, to the issues
that we agreed to present.
THE COURT: The usual way is for cross examination
to proceed. I believe we had better go ahead and proceed as
usual, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I think, Mr. Walker, you had better
cross examine now.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, 'when we present our case,
we would like to reserve the right --
THE COURT: You are not presenting your case. You
are cross examining their witness.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
I might state to the Court that my cross examination might be
a little more precise if I could have a few minutes.
9b
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CROSS EXAMINATION Parsons
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THE COURT: All right
MR. WALKER: Could we have a recess?
THE COURl: les, we will take a ten minute recess.
Let me know, now.
MR. WALKER: Thank you, Your Honor.
(A short recess was taken.)
THE COURi: All right, Mr. Walker, you may proceed.
MR. WALKER: Thank you, Your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, you have stated in your deposition
that you --
THE COURT: Please talk a little louder, Mr. Walker
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q You have stated in your deposition that you had
given Mr. Fowler responsibility, perhaps total freedom, to
select and recruit faculty and to assign them, is that true?
A Yes.
Q And that you wanted him to accomplish as much staff
desegregation as he possibly could, is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Did you ever state to Mr. Fowler what the objective
was that you expected h'm to achieve as Assistant Superintender
in charge of personnel?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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A The objective was to --
Q Did you ever state to him?
A The objective was to achieve as much as possible
under tne process of attrition and encouraging as many transf :
as we could, where Negroes would be teaching in predominantly
white schools and white teachers would be teaching in Negro
schools e
THE COURT: You still haven't answered his question
Mr. Parsons.
THE WITNESS: Sir?
THE COURT: You still haven't answered his question
THE WITNESS: He will have to repeat the question.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Did you state to him what your objective was?
A Yes, this was the objective.
Q Did you state it to him?
A Yes.
Q All right. Now, in terms of numbers, did you tell
him what your understanding of the ultimate goal to be achieve
was?
A In terms of numbers?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q You state further that you had a policy of filling
vacancies and encouraging voluntary transfers.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 99
A That's correct.
Q Did you have a policy which went beyond that?
A No, I think not.
Q Was Mr. Fowler authorized to go beyond that policy?
A He certainly could if he wished to, yes.
Q Was he specifically authorized by the board that he
could go beyond that policy of filling vacancies?
A I do not recall the board ever giving such authori
zation .
Q I see. Do you recall any authorization ever given
to Mr. Fowler in reference to the extent of teacher desegrcgat..
or the amount that could be achieved other than the 1966 board
directive to him to double the amount from what it was
A There has been no direct directive given to him
subsequent to that action on the part of the board in '66.
Q When, approximately, was that in 1966, Mr. Parsons?
A Mr. Walker, I do not remember the date. If you have
it there, I probably would agree with it, but I do not remcmbe '
the date.
Q I don't have it either, but it was before the end
of the school year of --
A I'm sure that it was. Effective for the 1966-67
school year.
Q Prior to the Judge's letter that you received in
August -
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TEL COURT: Mr. Walker, I'm having a little trouble
understanding you.
MR. WALKER: I'm sorry. ,
THE COURT: Now, speak up, because there are other
people here, too, you know.
MR. WALKER: Yes, sir.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Prior to the Judge’s letter which was received --
THE COURT: What letter?
MR. WALKER: The Judge's.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q -- Judge Gordon Young's letter which was received
subsequent to the filing of our motion to dismiss, what
specific goal had this Board of Directors formulated for
faculty desegregation?
A The goal that had been formulated, if you could
call it a goal, was to achieve as much faculty desegregation
as could possibly be achieved through the process of attrition
and by encouragement of individuals already employed in the
tsystem to transfer.
Q Had this board -- and by "this board", I mean
the board that became the majority as of march, 1966 -- ever
made a specific directive which has passed down in this
respect?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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A I don't think so, no.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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Q It has not?
A Mo. But they did understand that this was the
policy under which we were operating.
Q But they have not made a specific directive?
A No, they haye not.
Q Before the motion --
A I!d like -- may I say that there's one exception
to this, and I would assume that you are going to get to it
later on, but
Q You have already gotten to it. You're talking
about Park View School?
A Yes, I am.
Q Now, let's talk about that. Did this board
specifically direct by resolution or other action which
appears in the board's minutes that the Park View School be
racially balanced?
A They directed --
THE COURT: Did you say "Park View"?
MRo WALKER: Park View School be racially balanced.
THE WITNESS: They directed by action of the board
that Park View School be racially balanced.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q All right.
A Now, whether or not this appears in the minutes,I'm
not sure. I have not gone back to check them.
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It was not a resolution adopted by the board, I’m sure.
Q I see. There was no vote taken on it, was there?
A Let me say that there was either a vote taken, or
there was a general consensus expressed.
Q I see. Nov;, what was the balance that they consider :
to be ideal, and that you considered to be ideal?
A Between 25 and 30 per cent of the faculty was to
be Negro and between 70 and 75 per cent white.
Q I see. Did the board ever adopt a racial balance
objective for the rest of the schools, besides Park View, in
the system?
A No, they did not.
Q I see. Has the board to this date adopted a
resolution which requires adoption of a racially balanced
faculty by the beginning of 1968-69?
A You mean for actual implementation?
Q Yes.
A No, they have not.
Q I see. Now, you stated that the policy was one of
filling vacancies in normal attrition and voluntary encourage
ment.
A Yes.
Q How long did you state that it would take you to
reach racial balance in all of the schools in the system,
using the Park View formula, following that procedure?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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A Mr. Walker, I did not state.
I said j.t would certainly take several years. I am in no
position, really, to define "several". I actually do not
know.
Q You stated earlier four to five years.
A I may have, and that may be a good definition of
sei'eral.
Q All right, sir. Thank you.
Now, what are the particular problems that you identified
that you have incurred in getting more substantial faculty
desegregation in the historically identified Negro schools?
A What are the problems that we have identified?
Q Yes.
A We have found that if we had 7,000 Negro pupils
attending school in the all-Negro schools as they exist in
Little Rock at the present time, even though the Negro
enrollment in the District may go up, shall I say, five per
cent, this does not mean that we will have to increase our
faculty, necessarily, five per cent in those schools that
are all Negro, because all of the increase in the number of
Negroes of school age in Little Rock -- enough of them move
over into the traditional white schools to where the facult
serving in the all-Negro schools usually remain fairly static.
We do not have to add any people. In fact, in some of these
schools, we have lost enrollment.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 103
H
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This, coupled with the fact that Negro teachers seem to
stay in the jobs that they have to a much higher degree than
do white teachers. There is not as much in-migration and out
migration among Negro teachers.
We have, naturally, experienced some difficulty actually
having vacancies in the all-Negro schools. Those that we have
hao, in most instances, have been created by us through the
process of transferring Negro teachers from the all-Negro
schools to a predominantly white school in order to make a
vacancy in the all-Negro school that, hopefully, could be
filled with a white teacher.
Q Have you conducted -- have you finished identifying
the problems?
A Yes.
Q Have you conducted a survey of your staff, teaching
staff, to determine the number of Negro teachers who would be
willing to transfer info white situations, predominantly white
situations?
A I do not believe we have. Certainly not recently.
Q When did you do one?
A Well, I do not recall. It seems to me that we did
make a survey two or three years ago, a questionnaire type of
report, but I do not recall when that was done.
Q Do you recall whether Mr. Hardy Pairet ever made
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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such a survey?
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A I'm not aware of the fact, if he did.
Q Do you recall the results of the initial survey?
A No, but we -- I do not recall the specific results,
but we found many more Negro teachers willing to transfer to
the traditionally identified white schools than we found white
teachers willing to transfer to the all-Negro schools.
Q Would it be a fair statement that that report would
show that at least fifty per cent of the Negroes were willing
to transfer to predominantly white schools?
A I*m not sure that that would be a fair statement
but you could be right, because you evidentally have looked
at the survey more recently than I have.
Q All right, sir.
A Now, I haven’t looked at it in a long time.
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, you know, there are a
number of people in the courtroom and I am sure they would
i
like tc hear what is going on. Out of common courtesy, let’s
try to speak louder, if you please.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I will do my best. I don’t
have a booming voice and it sort of strains me.
THE COURT: I'll tell you. Move back a little bit,
and that may help. Then if I can hear you, perhaps they can.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, you stated earlier that approximately ten
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per cent o: your white faculty leaves the school system each
year, is that true?
A Approximately correct, yes, sir.
Q Then this means that between eighty and ninety
vacancies are created each year, is that true?
A That is approximately correct.
THE COURT: How many white teachers are there,
approximately?
THE WITNESS: Well, he has it a little bit too
high. I think there are about 750 -- and we have witnes: es
who could give this better than I -- but about 750 white
teachers and about 300 Negro teachers. Something like this.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q But slightly more than ten per cent leave the
system, you’ve stated, a year.
A Yes.
THE COURT: I didn't hear that last question.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Slightly more than ten per cent leave the system
each year.
A Approximately, correct.
THE COURT: And there are how many Negro teachers?
350?
THE WITNESS: Something like that, yes, sir. Maybe
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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300 would be nearer correct.
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BY MR. WALKER:
Q So that since 1965, you have had, if your figures
hold true, approximately 300 white teachers to leave the
school system, is that true?
A Ihis probably would be very close to true, yes.
Q I see. And during this period of time, you have
had a small number of Negro teachers leave the system.
A That’s correct, yes.
Q Now, have you used the survey that your staff made
two or three years ago, by your statement, to place Negro
teachers who indicated a willingness to go into white schools
in those schools?
A Not in every instance ha\re we at all.
Q You haven't?
A No.
Q Then would you say you have done it in most
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instances?
A I doubt seriously that the survey itself has been
used to determine the placement of teachers to any great
degree.
Q All right, sir. Now, you have also stated that
you encouraged white teachers to transfer into predominantly
Negro schools, is that true?
A Yes.
Q How many white teachers from the predominantly
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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white schools who had been teaching within the system within
the last three years were you able to encourage under your
policy to leave a formerly white school and go into a formerly
Negro school?
A I think the figure is one, but I’m not sure of
that. It may be a little bit more than that.
Q I see. Isn't it true that your survey indicated
that there was a larger number of white teachers who would
be willing to go into Negro schools?
A I’m sure that it did. Yes.
Q Why did you not, then, use your survey to identify
white teachers who would be willing to go into predominantly
black schools?
A, I’m sure that the survey was used to some degree
in this regard.
It’s one thing to put down on a slip of paper that "I’ll be
willing to do this thing." But then when you call the
individual in and say, "Here is the assignment that we want
you to take. Are you willing to take it?" -- it’s a little
more difficult ’when the individual is faced with the problem,
if it is a problem, indeed, to say, "Yes, I'm willing to
do it."
We get a lot of answers, very often, on surveys that do not
materialise when we are up to the point of actually putting
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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it into effect.
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Q I see. Do you know of your own knowledge whether
or not a i.arge number of white teachers have been called upon
for interviews to be placed into predominantly black schools?
A If you limit it to interviews, I am not sure that
this has been done. I think that our director -- our assistant
superintendent in charge of personnel could better answer this.
But I would say in this connection that the several desegre
gation institutes that have been held in our system, the
appearances that I have made before faculty groups, large and
small, where this problem has been discussed, I, personally,
on numerous occasions have said that this is a problem that
is facing the Little Rock District and we’re going to have to
look to you to help us solve this problem. Be willing to go
to a school where your race is in a minority. All you have
to do is let us know you are willing to do this, and rest
assured w e will put our shoulder to the wheel to try to work
out a position for you.
Q But you do not know about the actual interviews.
A I do not, I have not personally interviewed these
people.
Q And you do not know whether the survey that was
taken several years ago was, in fact, used to identify people
and then interview them, ns a condition precedent to their
being placed --
A I have merely said that I am reasonably sure that
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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this survey vas of some value and perhaps it was used, but
it probably was not used extensively.
Q I »ee. Now, have you transferred any white teachers
to Negro schools against those teachers' will?
A Probably not.
Q have you transferred any black teachers to formerly
white schools against those teachers' will?
A hot to my knowledge, but with the exception of one
who came to my office and said, "I don't want to do this."
And I said, if you would just do it, we need this real badly.
If you would just do it and come back four and one-half
months later and tell me whether or not you like it or not,
and if you say, 'I don’t like it,' we will transfer you back
at the end of four and one-half months."
She said, "Under these conditions, I'll take your proposition.'
She came back in four and one-half months later and said, "I
just love what I'm doing and I wanted to come back and tell
you."
That's the only one that I know of.
Q I see. Now, do you know whether any Negro teachers
have left the system rather than be denied freedom of choice
to select whether they would be in a Negro school or a white
school?
A No, I do not know definitely of anyone who has left
the system.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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I did receive a letter from one Negro teacher, as I remember
it, who was going to California to teach. And in her letter,
if I remember it correctly, and I’m not sure -- this has been
a couple of years ago -- she said something about the fact
that "since I could not get the position that I wanted in the
Little Rock system, I have applied and been offered a position
in California."
Q I see. Now, have you transferred any of the Negro
teachers to white schools during the summer months?
A Probably have.
THE COURT: What do you mean by that, Mr. Walker?
MR. WALKER: During the summer months?
THE COURT: Do you mean for summer school teaching,
or - -
MR. WALKER: No. No. I’m speaking about the point,
at which the t msfer took place.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Would it be during the summer months?
A We probably have.
Q Would it be as early as, say, two weeks bc'fore
school started?
A That’s entirely possible.
Q Would it be as early as one day before school
started?
A That might be possible, too.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 112
THE COURT: Do you mean early or late?
BY MR. WALKER:
Q As early as one day before the school started for
the next term, or as late as one day.
A It depends on the conditions. This may have occurred
yes. Maybe we have made some transfers after school started.
I wouldn't be sure, but we probably have.
i
Q You probably have.
Now, isn't it true that of the white teachers who have gone
into the formerly Negro schools, Mr. Parsons, almost all of
them, by your records, have been new to the Little Rock
school system.
A Yes, this is true.
Q And isn't it further true that many of them have
been beginning teachers, without any prior teaching experience.
A I think it would depend entirely, of course, upon
your definition of "many". Some, surely, have been without
prior teaching experience, but I would say many have had prior
teaching experience.
Q Would Mr. Fowler have that information? -
A He probably would, yes.
Q But isn't it true, though, that all of the Negro
teachers that you have transferred to formerly white schools
until this year, all of them have had prior teaching exper^enc
in the formerly Negro schools, or the all-Negro schools?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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A You said all that we had transferred?
Q Yes.
A Of course, the answer would automatically be yes
to that.
Q I see. All that you have assigned to the formerly
white schools have had previous teaching experience in the
Little Rock schools.
A I could not say that this is a cor?ect statement.
It may be, but I cannot say that.
Q Would you state that most of them, four-fifths of
them, have had prior experience in the Little Rock schools?
A I would say that most of them have, I'm sure that's
true.
Q Is it true that all cf them had -- at least all of
them that transferred from Negro schools to white schools
had established reputations for being extremely able teachers?
A I would not be sure of this. I would hope that
that would be the case, yes.
Q In your deposition I asked you that same question,
as I recall, without going to the page, and you correct me,
you stated that you are pretty sure that was correct?
A It probably is, I hope so. I surely hope so.
Q Do you have any way of knowing how effective a
job the replacements for those Negro teachers, the white
replacements for those Negro teachers, did during the year
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they took their assignments?
A Well, of course, we have our ways of determining
the effectiveness of any teacher, whether this teacher be
Negro or white. Ihe principal is in charge of the program,
we have supervisors that work out of the central office who
observe teachers and evaluate them in terms of their effective *
ness. They would be evaluated in terms of effectiveness exact] ?
like other teachers within the system are evaluated.
Q Do you know7 whether those teachers who replaced
the experienced teachers, the white teachers who replaced
the Negro teachers, were as effective as the Negro teachers?
A I naturally have not examined every evaluation
form that has been submitted by principals in connection with
these individuals, but if they were re-employed in their
positions, I would assume that principals did recommend them
for re-employment. Exactly how the principals graded that
individual, I really have no idea.
Q You haven't conducted a survey yourself?
A No, I haven't.
Q Do you know whether a survey has been made by
any member of your staff?
A I have no idea.
Q Mr. Parsons, I note that the attrition rate of the
white teachers who have been assigned to Negro schools is very
high. Would that be an accurate statement?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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CROSS EXAM IN ArI ION - Persons
115
A That is an accurate statement. That is correct.
Q What percentage of the white teachers that you assi;;
to Negro schools remained in those schools for more than two
years?
A A reasonably high percentage, I think there has bee?,
an exhibit introduced that would give that exact percentage.
Q Would you identify that exhibit? Could it be 2?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q Would you state what the percentage is?
A Are you talking 3bout in 19--
Q By year. Let's take after two years of experience
with faculty desegregation, which would be the end of 1S66-67.
A In 1966-67, ten percent of the Negro teachers who
had been assigned to predominantly white school resigned while
thirty-six per cent of the white teachers assigned to pre
dominantly Negro schools, or all-Negro schools, resigned, while
in 67-68 four per cent of the Negro teachers resigned while
forty-eight per cent of the white teachers resigned.
Q So it would be a fair statement, would it not, that
tat the end of 67-68, half of the white teachers, approximately
A Approximately.
Q -- who had been formerly assigned to Negroes schools
resigned?
A That is correct.
Q Well, how would you account for this phenomenon?
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A It is an extremely difficult phenomena, if that
is what it is, to account for, actually. I have no way of
really knowing. There are many factors involved in teacher
resignation, but I think that over a period of four or five
years -- v/e do not have statistics for that long a period of
tii.*e yet -- but I think over a period of four or five years
tha * if this rate continues to be so much higher among the
white teachers than the Negro teachers, we certainly could
SU; an(i make some discoveries perhaps in this connection,
Q But you made no -- let me ask you another question.
According to these statistics isn't it true that of the six
white teachers who were initially assigned to predominantly
black schools, eighty-five per cent of them left those schools
at the end of the first year?
A That's correct.
Q At the end of the 66-67 school year, thirty-six
per cent left?
A If that is what the report says, yes, sir.
Q You have had three years experience with this, but
you ha'/en't made a survey to determine the causes and try to
prepare some answers or solutions?
A I personally have not made a survey. This is not to
say our Department of Personnel has not examined very carefully
these reasons. They may have.
Q Have you directed them to do this?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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A No, I haven't.
Q the board directed them to?
A No, they haven't.
Q So that that means, doesn't it, that the faculty
situation in the black schools with regard to the white
teachers is rather unstable?
A I would say that it is, yes.
Q But the faculty situation with regards to Negro
teachers at white schools is rather stable?
A Reasonably stable, right.
Q What effect would that have, this instability, hav
upon the ability of a principal and the rest of the staff to
implement an effective teaching program for what would have
to be substantially deprived Negro children?
A We subscribe to the concept of stability in any
faculty. Unfortunately, we do not always get to enjoy the
experience of stability, and there are rare occasions where
a little instability -- faculty members who are leaving, and
new ones coming in - - may generate and giî e new ideas and
new impetus to the program, but I still go back and;say we
subscribe to the basic principle of faculty stability if it
can be achieved.
So I do think that instability i- any faculty can -- I will
not say it will -- it can adversely affect an educational
program.
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Q j.sn t it true that this year you have not had ten
per cent attrition as you had normally been having?
A This way be true. I know we did not employ quite
one hundred teachers, so it would be less than ten per cent.
Q Is it true that in an earlier deposition you statec
that approximately forty-four positions were vacated at the
end of the year, either by resignation or retirement?
A In the total system?
Q Yes.
A. No, sir, I don’t believe I said that in a deposition
Mr. Walker, because there are a lot more than that, and I’ve
always been aware of the fact that there were more vacancies
than that.
Q All right, but the precise figures would be in
someone else's custody than yours?
A They would. However, I think it is certainly safe
to say ninety or more.
Q Insofar as your staffs are concerned, would you
state the number of teachers, Negro teachers, you had at Hall
High School -- that you had at Hall High School during 1965-
66, 1966-67, 1967-68?
A If you have the figures there, you state them and
I’ll agree with it.
THE COURT: He doesn't have that before him.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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THE WITNESS: I do not have this before me.
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BY MR. WALKER:
Q But you do know them, don't you, Mr. Parsons?
A No, I really don't. I'd be glad to tell you if I
did.
Q For 1965-66, there were none: 1966-67, there was
one, 1^67-68, there was one; and your plans are to have two
there for 68-69, is that true?
A If that is what this says, I would agree with that.
Q Other than one person that was assigned there last
year, you have to contract with the second person that you
propose to assign to Hall High School, or has that person
not returned his contract?
A I ’tu not aware of it.
Q So you don't know then for a fact whether or not th<
will be two Negroes at Hall High School next year then?
A Mr. Fowler prepared the report from which you are
quoting these figures, and I accept his report for face value,
and if he says there will be two, I'm sure there will be two.
Q But this means, then, these are your expected
assignments for the next year?
A No, contracts are in and signed.
Q Isn't it true that you have had a number of persons
enter into contracts with you and fail to honoe those contract:-
by the beginning of the school term?
A Oh, yes.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
Q Hasn't this happened in a number of instances
when you have had white teachers assigned to Negro schools?
A I'm not aware of it happening to any higher degree
there than it has system-wide. Maybe it has, but I'm not aware
of it if it has.
Q Before our motion for further relief was filed,
how many Negro principals did the district employ to supervise
the educational programs in formerly all-white schools?
THE COURT: You had better give him a date.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q That would be about the first of August, say the
middle of July. I don't have the precise dat before me.
A How many Negro principals?
Q Yes, were assigned to formerly all-white schools?
A There was no Negro principal I believe, assigned
to a formerly all-white school at that time. There was one,
I'm sure, viceprincipal, may have been more, but there was
one viceprincipal, I believe.
Q Was that school formerly an all-white school?
A Yes. No, not a formerly all-white school, no.
Q You refer to Metropolitan?
A Yes, it was created as an desegregated school in
the v e r y beginning.
Q What are your qualifications -- what are the basic
educational qualifications, that one must have before he is
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assigned to fill a principalship in the school system?
A We require that an individual cither have a Master'
Degree or be close enough to his Master's Degree to permit him
to finish it within the first year in which he serves as
principal.
Q Isn't it true that before this last year you had a
policy which was inflexible which required a principal, before
he would be assigned to a school, that he would have a Master'.
Degree?
A I don't think so.
Q Do you recall at any time during your tenure as
superintendent ever assigning a principal to a school without
that principal having a Master's Degree prior to the time
that you assigned a white principal to the formerly Negro
Rightsell School?
A No, I don't remember. We may have, but I don't
recall.
Q You don't recall?
A No.
Q Is it true that you did assign such a p'erson to a
Negro school as a principal before that person obtained his
Master's Degree?
A Yes, this is true.
Q Besides that one white principal in a Negro school,
how many other white principals had you assigned to formerly
CROSS EXAMINATION - I’arsons
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
Negro schools?
A At the time he was assigned?
Q Yes.
A No others, I believe.
Q I see. Well, at the time he was assigned,
the time we filed the motion in mid-July.
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or at
A Well, one other was assigned subsequent to the
assignment at Rightsell.
Q Was that before our motion was filed, or afterwards
A It was before.
Q Aside from that, do you have viceprincipals in any
of your high schools besides Metropolitan School?
A Yes. We have viceprincipal -- or we won't quibble
about terms --or maybe it's Dean of Boys or Dean of Girls.
Q Okay. Are all those personnel who are in the former
white senior high schools white?
A Yes, that's right.
Q And are all those personnel in your formerly all-
Negro high schools black?
A Yes.
Q Insofar as your department heads are concerned in
each one of your high schools, are all those persons in ITall
High School white?
A I'm going to say yes, but I’m not sure, but they
probably are.
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Q Central High School?
A Probably yes.
Q Park View School?
A I do not know about Park View at all.
Q The same thing is true. There hadn't been any --
before the summer of this year, there had not been any desecre
gation of the coaching staff, is that true?
A I believe this is correct.
Q Isn’t it true that the desegregation, of the
coaching staff you have had, occurred when you placed an
inexperienced white graduate of a Southwest Conference School
at Horace Mann High School?
A You mean the first desegregation of coaching staff?
Q Yes.
A Yes, if you wish to classify him in that manner,
yes.
Q Isn't it further true that at the time you placed
that person in that school that there were available to you
for consideration Negro applications of persons who have
superior academic training in terms of number of years they
had been -- the number of degrees that they have had, and the
number of years teaching experience?
A This may be true. I do not know. I did not personal:
examine these applications.
Q Isn’t it further true that all the persons who have
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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been employed in the last three years to fill coaching
vacancies have been hired on a racial basis, meaning, of
course, they have been hired for vacancies at either South
west, rorest Heights, Hall, assigned there because of their
race?
A No, this is not true.
Q Can you cite a single instance when that did not
happen?
A I would cite every instance when it did not happen.
Q Are you stating then --
THE COURT: Now you are quibbling.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Could you state, Mr. Parsons, whether you had
applications from Negro persons which were superior in terms
of academic experience -- academic training and experience
to those white persons you assigned to the vacancies in the
last three or four years in the white schools?
A No, I could not state that.
Q You could not state that?
A No.
Q Can you state whether you had any applications
from any Negroes who had Master's Degrees?
A No, I could not state that.
Q You don't know?
A No, I do not.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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Q Who would know?
A I'm sure the assistant superintendent in charge
of personnel would know.
Q All right, sir. I notice at West Side Junior High
School, you have stated there will be seven Negro faculty
members. What would be the approximate number of faculty
members in the whole school for this next year there?
A I would assume something between thirty-five and
fourty.
Q Isn't it true that approximately forty to forty-
five per cent of the students of that school happen to be
Negro?
A In 1968-69, we expect more than that percentage
to be Negro.
Q That is under your freedom of choice plan?
A Yes.
Q Under your freedom of choice plan, how many Negro
students do you expect to be in the total enrollment?
A Probably some fifty-five per cent.
Q And what percentage of the faculty would'be Negro?
A Well, seven as related to, shall we say, thirty-
five, which would be about twenty per cent.
Q I made a mistake. I think Exhibit 3 will how that
four Negro teachers will be assigned to West Side.
A In that case it would be about eleven per cent.
CkOaS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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Q What would be the percentage under your freedom
ox choice plan, what would be the number of Negro pupils
whom you would expect to enroll at Central High School and
what would be the number of white pupils?
A I do not have these figures before me, I hope you
realize that. I would judge around 400 Negro pupils at Central
Higa, probably 1500 whites, but that may not be real close.
THE COJRT: Just say that your exhibit number so-
and-so reflects that.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, there are so many exhibits
that are so difficult to identify that it's pretty difficult
for me to refer to them with facility.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, would you look at that, Mr. Parsons, that
exhibit, and identify it and state the number of Negro Pupils
whom you expect under freedom of choice plan to attend Central
High School for the next school year?
A If I'm interpreting this correctly, and I think I
am, 522 Negro students, 1,487 white students, 74 per cent
white, 26 per cent Negro.
Q What per cent of your faculty during the 67-68
school year at Central High School was Negro? Approximately
five per cent?
A Five per cent, right.
Q And for 68-69, under your freedom of choice plan >
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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you have no proposed increase?
A No proposed increase.
Q Despite the fact that one-fourth of the pupils
happen to be Negro, is that true?
A Yes.
Q You have identified West Side and Central High
School along with several other schools as either being "over-
integrated", or "within danger of being over-integrated". Is
that a fair statement?
A Yes.
Q Whad do you mean by the term "over-integrated"?
A I’m not sure that I know what I mean, and that is
the reason in the report that I put it in quotes, Mr. Walker.
If you will check the report, you will find everywhere that I
used the term I put it in quotes, "over-integration" or
"under-integration". It probably means around fifty per cent,
I’m not sure. When a school swings from predominant white to
predominant Negro, maybe we would call that "over-integration"
I’m not sure, actually.
Q All right.
A But you somethimes have to have some terminology tc
say what you want to say.
Q What other schools would you state or identify as
being in danger of being "over-integrated", pursuant to your
freedom of choice plan? Could you give me a list of those schcc
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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A Well, to use the terminology of "over-integration",
I would say Mitchell Elementary, Centennial Elementary,
probably all of the elementary schools. Of course, we have
already identified, I thin, West Side Junior High School.
Q Would most of those schools that stand in the dang *
being "over-integrated" be located within a particular sectio.
of the city: and, if so, would you identify that section of
the city?
A In a general range of what we might call the centr L
city, the south -- well, the central city, probably a little
bit to the south of what would be central.
Q Would they also include the eastern part of the
city where you have Parham and Kramer located?
A I’m not sure that it would, because I think we
have not -- we have never looked upon these schools as being
"over-integrated", actually.
Q Do they stand in danger of being "over-integrated"
by the growth of the community, the influx of Negroes in the
areas and the exodus of whites?
A If this were to happen, why, there could be that,
quote, danger, close quote.
Q Let me ask you whether you still endorse the Parson;
approach as a procedi, re for desegregating the Little Rock
public schools?
A Are you talking about the high school?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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Q Let’s talk about the high school for now, yes.
A I still maintain that this would be a good way to
desegregate our high schools, yes.
Q Do you think this would bring about more numerical
pupil desegregation at the high school level for a longer
period of time when the geographic zoning plan that you hav
presented to the Court?
A. Yes, I do.
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Q What are the present problems that the district
would experience in implementing the Parsons plan in 1968-69
at the high school level?
A Well, you just couldn’t do it because you couldn't
phase out Mann High School and attempt to congregate all of
the high school pupils in Little Rock in three zones, ox-
three buildings, leaving out Metropolitan High. We just don't
have the space.
Q Isn't it true, though, Mr. Parsons, that you witl
have approximately 4,500 high school pupils in grades nine
through twelve within the system?
A This may be true.
Q Isn't it true that at one time or another you had
approximately 2200 pupils at Central High School?
A That's correct.
Q And isn't it further true that atone time or
another you have had approximately 1500 pupils at Hall High
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 129
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School?
A That's correct.
Q And isn't it true that you have had approximately
1500 pupils at one time or another at Horace Mann High School?
A No, that is not correct.
Q Chat is the largest number of high school pupils
you have had at Horace Mann High School
A I do not know, but it probably has been in the
range of x200, but I think that it would take care of more
pupils than we have ever had there.
Q Isn’t it true that since that number of 1200 was
reached at Horace Mann High School, you have had additional
construction at Horace Mann, namely, an English building?
A No, we were including this. I say that I think
Horace Mann High School would accommodate in excess of 12C0
students, but it would not have accommodated even 1200 without
the wing that was constructed some three or four years ago.
Q The principal would have more accurate figures than
you would have?
A Probably would, yes.
Q What number would you say that school would
accommodate at the optimum?
A At the optimum?
Q Yes.
A Probably 1250 at the optimum.
CROSS EXAMINAIION ~ Parsons
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Q At the maximum?
A At the maximum, probably 1350, maybe even 1400.
Q All right, so that you would have at least 5,000
spaces in your high schools this year using Horace Mann,
Central and Hall High School?
A Mr. Walker, I thought we were talking about the
Parsons Plan, and the Parsons Plan did not use Mann High
School as one of the high schools in this district.
Q I’m asking you a specific question.
A What was it?
Q That those three schools, Horace Mann, Hall High
School, and Central High School, would accommodate approximate.
5,000 students together?
A Almost, and you have less students in the high
school grades than 5,000 students.
Q And you hatre less students in the high schools
grades than 5,000 students?
Your answer is yes?
A Yes.
Q Now, could not you reasonably exclude Park View as
a high school and substitute in the Parsons Plan Horace Mann
as a high school and assign all of your students on a geogrr.ph
basis this year?
A My answer to that would have to be I don’t know.
You are attempting to write a plan for the school system here
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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and these are the kinds of things that we would need to do
some research, locate pupils. I could not answer that question.
Q Has that option ever been presented you, Mr. Parsons
A. The option of --
Q As I just presented to you.
A I think -- you presented it, I believe, at one tine,
but you presented it along with another plan.
Q Did you ever consider that?
A We considered the entire package that you presented,
yes.
Q But you did not isolate the high school package?
A No, because you did not isolate it in your package.
Q Do you recall my ever laving talked with you before
that package was presented about that kind of a plan?
A Oh, you probably have. I don’t recall for sure,
but you probably have.
Q All right. And your statement is that you haven't
considered that as an alternative?
A No, I didn't say that we have not considered that
as an alternative. I said that it would take time to study
this. It ha; not been studied very carefully as an alternative.
Q I see. How much time would it take to study that
as an alternative?
A I do not know.
Q Isn’t it true that you have all the necessary
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 132
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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facilities at Horace Mann High School that you have at Hall
High School to conduct a --
A Basically, we have the same, yes.
Q And isn t it true that Central also is basically
equipped?
A Yes.
Q So that that alternative hasn't been explored in
terms of being able to implement that kind of a plan this
year?
A It has not been explored in depth.
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, under your plan, isn't it true
that all of the --
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I'd like for you to refer
to your map that refers to the high schools.
THE COURT: No. 14?
MR. WALKER: Yes, Your Honor, that's 14. This is
that plan.
THE COURT: You eliminated Park View from your
last one.
MR. WALKER: Yes, I did, Your Honor.
THE COURT: What status does Park View have?
THE WITNESS: Well, there is still construction but
we feel that it will be ready for occupancy on September 1.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q When, Mr. Parsons?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 134
A September 1, or really the day after Labor Day,
at least. We are moving furniture into the building now.
Q All right, now, I notice that under your plan, you
would have Negro pupils who live on the east side of Little
Rock -- that is, the northeast side of Little Rock to be trans
ported either by themselves or by system-provided transportati 3
to Hall High School for education, is that true?
THE COURT: What are we talking about now?
MR. WALKER: We’re talking about the Parsons Plan.
THE COURT: Now, you're getting me confused.
MR. WALKER: It:s the Parsons Plan, Your Honor.
THE COURT: We’re going back to the Parsons Plan.
THE WITNESS: If you’re talking about the Parsons
Plan, at no time did I say pupils were to supply their own
transportation, Mr. Walker.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q They would be given freedom of choice, would they
not?
A No, they would not.
Q This year. This year to choose --
THE COURT: Under the Parsons Plan?
BY MR. WALKER:
Q -- under the Parsons Plan --
A That’s right.
Q -- they would be given freedom of choice for 1S68-61
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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to choose to attend either one of the schools?
A That's correct.
Q But they would have to provide their own transpor
tation.
A That's correct. I thought you were talking about
the ultimate implementation of the plan.
Q That's right, and the next year, they would still
be given this opportunity, and then the third year, they would
still be given the opportunity, but it would be at this time
that the system would begin providing transportation for them,
is that true?
A That's correct.
Q So you were going to phase out Horace Mann as a
high school, and have it paired with Metropolitan High School,
is that true?
A That's correct.
Q In the meantime, your plan would have taken effect,
isn't it true, full effect in 1970-71, or 71-72, which was it?
• A I'm not sure, but I think it was 70-71, but there
may have been a little carry-over in 71-72.
Q Now, realistically, Mr. Parsons, could you.expect
the youngsters, the Negro youngsters, who live in this parti
cular area to be able to obtain their own transportation to
Hall High School?
A Very few of them, probably.
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Q Right. And isn't it true that -- wouldn't it be
true of most of the Negro youngsters who live on the east side
of Little Rock, that they would not be able to provide their
own transportation to Hall High School?
A Most of them, I think this is true.
Q I see. Now, Mr. Parsons, what is there to keep you
ana the board from implementing in September a plan whereby
you use only three high schools, to wit: Hall, Central and
Mann, and zone those schools pursuant to the same kind of
philosophy that was followed in preparing your Exhibit No. 14?
A Mr. Lalker, I hesitate to be so repetitious. The
same reasons that have been given before. I'm talking about
■-he disruption of all the things that have been plan ed and
are already set up to do this in 1968, and this just seems
to me that we are reinforcing the fact that we need to study
these various proposals prior to making any firm decision
that they are to be done in September of 1968.
Q Would the plan that you have prepared for the high
schools be equally disruptive?
A The plan that --
Q The plan that you have --
A You're talking about this one now; are you talking
about the Parsons Plan?
Q This particular plan.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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THE COURT: On Exhibit 14.
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CROSS liXAMINAI I ON - Parsons
BY MR. WALKER:
Q On Exhibit 14.
A You mean zoning?
Q Yes, the zoning plan using a school which has never
been used before as a high school, Park View School.
A /es, it would be equally as disruptive.
Q I see. Would not you get, though, better racial
balance in each one of these schools if you were to use Horace
Mann as a high school, Central as a high school, and Hall as
a high school, and have a different kind of zoning lines being
drawn?
A Well, you certainly would. It would depend entirely
of course, on how you drew those lines. But I would assume
they would be drawn so you would achieve greater desegregation
Q Isn't there an alternative readily available to
the school district whereby you could get more Negroes into
Hall High School?
A You're talking about zoning?
Q Zoning.
A Strip zoning? I mean --
Q You tell me.
THE COURT: Wait a minute. Slow down now.
MR. WALKER: I asked whether or not there was an
alternative readily available to the district whereby they
could get more Negroes into Hall High School.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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THE COURT: With the zoning plan.
THE WITNESS: My answer was that --
r!R. WALKER: I mean any plan. I was just asking
whether there was an alternative now available to the district
whereby they could get more Negroes into Hall.
THE COURT: Of course, that covers a lot of terri
tory. Mr. Parsons.
THE WITNESS: I realize that, but I am still willin,
to answer by saying that there is no alternative readily
available but what would result in serious and severe disrupt!
of the program that we have established for next year.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q So that the Parsons Plan would result in severe
and serious disruption next year.
A No, I didn’t say that.
Q The Parsons Plan is an alternative whereby you
could get more Negro pupils in the Hall High School this year;
isn’t it?
A But the Parsons Plan, you. will recall, was pre
sented way last January, which would have given time to study
and to set the whole structure up over a period, as you pointed
out, 1970-71, and maybe 1971-72, in sequential steps; steps
for the proposal that you have made here today have not been
determined yet, and have not been set up in sequential order.
Q All right, isn’t it true, though, that if you were
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 139
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1 to have the strip zoning that you use --
THE COURT: What is strip zoning, Mr. Walker?
MR. WALKER: Strip zoning, Your Honor, as Mr.
Parsons refers to it -- well, let me let him refer to it. I
would like for him to define it. He used the term.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Go ahead, Mr. Parsons.
A Strip zoning to me is the creation in Little Rock
of rather narrow zones running from east to west that will
encompass a given area west of the city, west of University
Avenue, to east of Main Street.
THE COURT: All the way across. I see.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q It need not, though, Mr. Persons, isn't it true,
run completely across the city?
A It need not, no. It wouldn't have.
Q Isn't it true, then, that under your plan, the
basic principle of your plan, if it were fo-lowed, you would
have -- you could have east-west zoning which would go along
this area to include a larger number of Negro people and a
larger number of persons who are in the lower socio-economic
groups?
A Mr. Walker, I am ready neither to agree nor dis
agree with this statement. I do not have the research or the
information available to me. I am not acquainted with the raci J
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composition of these communities to which you are pointing to
the extent that I could react in an intelligent manner.
Q Mr. Parsons, isn't it true that that is basically
what your plan calls for? Strip zoning?
A If it is -- if you are --
THE COURT: Let me -- excuse me, Mr. Parsons --
you all are carrying me back and forth between the Parsons Plan
and a zoning plan. Which one are we talking about now?
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we are not talking about
this particular zoning plan. I'm asking him whether or not
THE COURT: You said "your plan".
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor, I'll be a little
more specific.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Isn't it true, Mr. Parsons, that the Parsons Plan
basically calls for strip zoning?
A Yes.
Q Now, using that same principle, would not, accor
ding to the research that your staff has done and put into thi:
Parsons Report, such a plan result for this year, using straig}
zoning, east-west strip zoning, as you call it, in greater
desegregation of Hall High School?
A Sure. Yes.
Q All right. Isn’t it true that the formula that you
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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had figured out would place approximately twenty per cent
of Hall High School, on a strip zoning basis, as being Negro?
A Yes.
Q So that that alternative would present -- would
produce greater racial desegregation and greater balance in
Hall High School this year than the zoning plan that you have
presently prepared?
A Mr. Walker, if you’re talking about the Parsons
Plan and not the plan for using Mann High School, my answer is
yes. But if you’re talking about your plan, to use Mann High
where you would have to completely redraw the zone lines, I an;
in no position to answer yc .
Q I'm not talking about my plan, Mr. Parsons. I’m
talking about the basic plan that you have outlined in the
Parsons Report by accelerating the date to the present, for
getting about 1970-71 -- I'm talking about the way you draw
the zone lines --
A Yes, sir.
Q So you can draw them to get a better balance at
Hall High School, and you can draw them to get better balance
in Park View High School, isn’t that true?
A You want me to answer, but as I understand your
question -- better than the zoning plan that we have presented
here in court here today?
Q I'm talking about racial balance now.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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A All right.
Q You can have approximately 20 to 25 per cent of
the Park View student body, using your plan, strip zoning, in
Park View High School this year, couldn't you?
A I'm afraid that I am lost in this. If you will say
do I subscribe to the basic principles of the Parsons Plan,\
yes, I do; if that's what you're trying to get me to say, I
do. But if you?re going to redraw the plans for me, I am in
no position to agree or disagree with you.
Q Mr. Parsons, what I want to know is simply isn't
it possible for you to redraw those zoning plans in such a way
even using three high schools -- Park View, Central and Mail-
in such a way as to have each one of those schools with a mine :
of Negro pupils?
A You might be able to do it, but if you're talking
about in 1968, I still contend that it should not be done with
out serious disruption and chaotic conditions.
Q But you have also stated that this geographic zoning
plan would cause serious disruption, too, haven't you?
A Yes, I have. And it would.
Q So that any plan that you would adopt other than
freedom of choice, according to your theory, would cause seriot
disruption.
A For 1968-69, yes, it would.
Q On this point, Mr. Parsons, I notice that Mr. Friday
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 142
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asked )ou about the Court of Appeals' opinion in Clark
Are you aware that that Court has counselled the school
districts in Arkansas to try to work out their problems with
their adversaries, so to speak?
A I would -- I would basically leave the answer to
this type of question to our attorney.
Q All right, then.
Now, are you aware -- I mean, have you been offered
by counsel coopera .ion in helping you and the board members
ccme up with a constitutional plan; from time to time since
1965?
A Well, I believe that you did offer and did appear
before the desegregation committee that was created and did
present a plan which you considered to be feasible for the
solution of this problem, yes.
Q I mean beginning back in 1965.
A I do not know that you have ever before presented
a plan to us.
Q That's not the question.
A All right.
Q That cooperation from the plaintiffs has at all
times been offered for the last three years to the district in
helping them to arrive without going to litigation at a con-
stitutional plan.
A Oh, I don't question but that you would be willing
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 143
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to cooperate in developing a plan, and I --
Q But this has been communicated to the board on
numerous occasions.
A Yes.
i
Q All right. Now, you are aware, are you not, Mr.
Paisons, that there was considerable discussion about locating
Park View High School where it is?
A Oh, yes.
Q And isn't it true that at the time that you decide-
there was a need for a new high school that you actually had
vacant classrooms at Horace Mann High School?
A This may be true, probably was. I have not checked
the records, but there were probably vacant classrooms at Man:
High at that time.
Q And isn't it true that you had as many as 400 vaca: :
classrooms at Horace Mann
THE COURT: Wait a minute. 400 classrooms?
MR. WALKER: 400 classroom vacancies, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Spaces for 400?
MR. WALKER: Space for 400 is right.
THE WITNESS: I would not agree with that.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q I want to ask you, Mr. Parsons, whether it's true
that in 1967-68, you had 802 pupils at Horace Mann High Schoc
A If that's what the record reflects, and that's
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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coming, I think, from my report so it's correct, yes.
Q All right, then. Let me then, Mr. Parsons, ask yon
if you had at that time 400 vacant classroom spaces at --
A That’s correct. I thought you had gone back several
years before that, Mr. Walker. I didn't know you were talking
about ’67.
Q Mr. Parsons, wasn’t Park View started in '67?
A Probably.
Q I see. How, if a school district is concerned about
having a unitary school district and is determined tc so have
such a system, would net it have been better to have located
Park View closer to the central part of the city rather than
having located it way out west where most of the whites live?
A I have no way of knowing for sure just exactly
what you mean by unitary school system, in the first place,
but Metropolitan Area Planning Council did submit a rather
comprehensive report to this board in which they recommended
that another senior high school be built actually' within a
couple of blocks of where Park View is built, and it v̂ as on th
basis of this, plus the fact that there was an identified need
for another high school, that the site was selected on which
Park Viexv was built.
Q Isn't it true that before Park View was built cue
in this particular area, you did not have ve y many citizens
or residents to the west of the site where you located?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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A That is true.
Q And isn't it true that Metroplan, or the Planning
Commission, predicted that to the west of Park View will be
expansion in the future?
A I do not recall, but I'm sure that they did, and
there probably will be.
Q Now, you've been here seven years, Mr. Parsons.
Could you state to the Court what the racial composition of
the area immediately surrounding Park View is, basically,
generally, mostly?
A Well, it's predominantly white area, that part
that is developed. But there is a great deal of underdeveloped
land that might be white, might be Negro, might be white and
Negro.
Q Do you know, Mr. Parsons, what the racial ccmpositi
of the area surrounding Hall High School is?
A Yes, I do.
Q What is it, Mr. Parsons?
A Predominantly white.
Q Do you know what the racial composition of that
school was at the time that site was selected in 1956?
A No, but I understand that there was a great deal
of vacant land at the time that site was selected in ’56. Not
being here, I'm not sure of that.
0 Isn’t it true that this is an upper income area
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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composed of mostly white?
A Yes.
Q Do you know a single subdivision in the Hall High
School area where you have a single Negro resident?
A hell, I couldn’t identify them, but I do know that
there are three Negro students who are zoned in, so there must
be some Negro resident or residents in there somewhere.
Q I'm talking about subdivisions now, Mr. Parsons.
THE COURT: He said he didn’t know.
/
THE WITNESS: I don’t know.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Let me ask it this way: what subdivision do you
live in, Mr. Parsons?
A I live in Leawood Heights.
Q Do you know whether a single Negro family lives
in that subdivision?
A Not a one, to my knowledge.
Q All right, now, do you know whether in the past --
I'm not talking about the future, I’m talking about the past -
whether or not any predominantly Negro settlements- havei been
started in the western part of the city, using University
Avenue as the dividing line? A predominantly Negro subdivision
or settlement that has been started in the last ten years.
A I know of none.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
147
Q Do you know oi any which are planned?
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A No. But I'm in no position of know of any, either
I want to point that out.
Q I understand.
Now, isn't it reasonable, then, to assume, Mr.
Parsons, that one of the factors that caused this situation to
come about is segregation in housing?
A What situation now are you talking about?
Q That is to say, where all of your pupils or most
of your pupils who live west of University and their parents
happen to be white.
A Do you mean -- what situation -- you mean, that is
because of segregated housing? I'm confused on your question.
Q Let me re-phrase it.
Isn't it true, isn't it probable, to your knowledge
as Superintendent of Schools in this city, that realtors who
sold houses west of University in subdivisions would not sell
to Negroes prior to 1907-68?
THE COURT: Well, we're getting £~r afield.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea. Not being a realtor
and not being involved in this, I wouldn't know.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q I want to ask you whether or not you still share
the view that you held when you prepared the Parsons Plan. I
call your attention to the Parsons Plan, page four:
"Housing patterns in the city are largely segre-
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 149
gated. There has been some infiltration by Negroes into
the historically identified white sections. Once this
infiltration begins, the section tends to move rapidly
to all Negro. This has created several pockets of Negro
residents surrounded by white neighborhoods."
A Yes, sir, I subscribe to that because that is the
pattern -- that is the residential pattern in Little Rock.
Q Now, you don't know how it got that way, do you?
A No, that’s no concern of mine, not really.
Q All right, then.
A Not as Superintendent of Schools.
Q Mr. Parsons, would you identify all of the schools
which have be-en constructed in Little Rock since 1956?
A I'm sorry. I couldn't do that. I'll do the best
I can, though. I'm not sure --
THE COURT: Get along now. Do what you can do,
and don't try to do what you don't knoxtf, Mr. Parsons.
THE WITNESS: All right.
Each elementary school has been constructed --
MR. WALKER: Ycur Honor, if you would look at
Exhibit 12, Defendant's Exhibit 12, I'll carry you to Ish
Elementary School, which is located in the southwestern part
of the city. I think there is a notation of 13 white pupils
and 606 Negro pupils.
THE COURT: I see it.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
BY MR. WALKER:
150
Q All right, go ahead.
A The McDermott Elementary School has been constructe i
Q That's in the western part of the city on Reservoir
Road, is that true?
A That's correct.
Q And the population in that school is 665 whites
and no Negroes.
A Right. And Terry Elementary.
Q That is the western part of the city, is it?
A That’s correct -- well, I'm not sure.
Q A H right, Mr. Parsons, I have it here.
A This is McDermott here. (Indicating.) You're
pointing to the wrong one.
Q All right. McDermott has 414 white pupils and
no Negro pupils, and it was constructed since 1956. Go right
ahead.
A All right.
Q Terry had 422 pupils, white pupils, and no Negro
pupils. t
A And Gilliam Elementary School has been constructed.
Q And that is 141 Negro pupils within the attendance
area and 18 whites
A And Park View, of course, that we've talked about.
THE COURT: Now, Park View -- are we talking about
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elementary schools?
MR. WALKER: Schools that have been constructed
since 1956.
BY MR. WALKER:
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
151
Q. That 859 white and 62 Negro.
A Henderson Junior High.
Q Henderson Junior High, 63 white, 56 Negro?
A No, that's a high school zone. I knew it didn't
lock right.
THE COURT: What is Henderson, a junior high?
THE WITNESS: Henderson is a junior high school.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q 808 white and two Negroes. Go right ahead.
A And I'm not sure --
Q How about Western Hills?
A Western Hills, thank you. Western Hills Elementary.
Q 204 white, and no Negro?
A You said since '56?
Q Yes.
A Romine was constructed after *56, I believe
Q 100 Negro, and 380 white.
A Yes.
Q What about Bale?
A I don't know. I have thought of it, but I don't
know whether it was constructed prior to *56 or not. It was
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probably constructed after '56, but I'm not sure.
Q What about Williams?
A Both were built when I came to Little Rock in '61,
so I'm really in no position to recall the exact date of
construction.
Q So these are the schools that have been built to
your knowledge since 1956?
A Right.
Q And the schools which are attended predominantly
by white which have been constructed since 1956 have a
minimum number of Negro pupils within the attendance areas?
A That's right.
Q And the ones built for Negro pupils have a minimum
number of white pupils, is that true?
A I would correct that to say the schools that have
been built in some neighborhoods will have a minimum number
of white and a maximum number of Negro. Schools built in
certain other neighborhoods will have a maximum number of whitt
and a minimum number of Negro.
tQ Isn't it true all of the schools you have constructc
that were initially populated by predominantly white pupil
bodies were started as white schools?
A Mr. Walker, if they were started under the freedom
of choice plan, they were started by the board and by the
superintendent and, hopefully, by this community with the full
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 153
understanding that we were operating under freedom of choice,
which meant that any pupil, regardless of where he resided in
the city, could attend that school if the school were not
overcrowded. I
Q But they were started as Negro schools or white
schools, basically? <
A Not really, no.
Q Isn't it true that you populated, or at least
assigned faculty members on the basis of the racial composition
of the neighborhood?
A That's largely true, yes.
Q Isn't it true that all the pupils initially assigned
to the schools in the Negro neighborhoods were Negro?
A You must recall we did not assign these pupils.
We placed freedom of choice forms available to them, and if th^
only people who expressed freedom of choice to. attend those
schools were Negroes, then they were assigned there.
Q It is your statement you haven't created any Negro
schools as such since you have been superintendent?
t
A That's my statement, with the possible exception of
Ish School xvhere we did create a student body originally and
then went back and opened it up for freedom of choice.
Q Was that pursuant to any pressure?
A Yes, it was.
Q The pressure of this Court?
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A Right. Right.
Q Now, you did populate -- assign white teachers in
every case to each one of the schools west of University that
you opened?
A I'm sure we did, yes.
Q All right. Then, Mr. Parsons, would you still agre
with your statement which is on page five of your report that
"Most of the school buildings in Little Rock were constructed
with the view to perpetuating segregation, rather than impleml
ing desegregation. School buildings are located at focal poin'
in identified communities. This means that a Negro community
has a school so located in relationship to it that it is
sensible, in quotes, for children in that, underlined, commun:
to attend that, underlined, school. The same is true for white!
communities"?
A I fully agree with that statement, but you must
recall in connection with it that most of the school buildings
in existence in Little Rock at that time, and that are still
in existence for that matter, were built prior to the time thd
tfreedom of choice went into effect. Every building that has
been built subsequent to the adoption of freedom of choice
has been built as a school building open to any student who
wished to enroll.
Q All right, but isn’t it true, Mr. Parsons, that
when you built Ish School and determined that it should have
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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a capacity of 500 pupils or so, that you knew that there
were approximately 500 Negro pupils within that area?
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, let me make a point, and
I feel I would be derelict if I didn't. If the Court would
decide what issue all this is directed to, I would object to
further questioning along these lines that do not go directly
to available, feasible alternatives available to this board
for purposes of this hearing, and if we have to try another
case in December, I guess we will try another case.
THE COURT: I know well enough, Mr. Walker, that
school boards build new schools where the people are, where
the students are, and where they are advised by planners --
and they hire them for that purpose -- that the growth of the
city is going to be. That is where they build schools. If it’s
a Negro community or white, they build schools where the growt
is going to occur.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, that's the contention we
are trying to disestablish right now. Our argument is that
they have deliberately, or, in effect, located schools in such
a way as to bring about re-segregation of the community.
THE COURT: How do you propose to make that with
this witness? I realize you made your point thoroughly with
the faculty. I understand that.
MR. WALKER: I think the further statement I have
to make is that this witness knows that these schools were
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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located in the midst of communities -- subdivisions, if you
will -- and were planned to accommodate the pupils, the number
of pupils who were expected to live within those subdivisions.
THE COURT: I suppose that is true.
MR. WALKER: And that he knew, or reasonably could
have known, what the racial composition of those communities or
subdivisions would have been.
THE COURT: Or made a good guess. That's the
obvious, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: So that by locating a site in a
particular place since 1956 --
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WALKER: -- that they were locating schools in
a way to perpetuate segregation because --
THE COURT: You jumped over the fence with me then.
If they knew the pupils were going to be there, they had to
build a school there.
MR. WALKER: My point, however, is that if you buil
a school for 400 pupils in the middle of Leawood, and you knov;
there were approximately 400 pupils in that school, and you ha
a freedom of choice plan, you know that sooner or later that
school is going to be overcrowded.
THE COURT: Where are you going to build that
:
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school, then?
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, our position has to be tha
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
the board could have anticipated that situation would develop
and that you would have overcrowding, just as you had over
crowding at Hall High wchool, and they could have located the
schools more centrally, or they could have had fewer schools.
So, what the board has done, in effect, is given the white
communities, middle class people, an option to have segregation
by fleeing from the central part of the city and going west,
knowing full well that according to census reports in this city
there were only 72 Negro families in 1966-67 that had family
incomes in excess of $10,000.00.
THE COURT: I understand your argument, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor. I would like
to cite to the Court the case of Brewer versus School Board
of the Norfolk, argued January 8, 1968, and decided three days
four days after the Supreme Court decision, May 31, 1968, for
the proposition that it makes no difference whether you have
housing segregation as a result of artificial conditions or
as a result of planning or what have you. The obligation upon
the school district is the same and that is to disestablish
racially identified schools, which are so identified by either
the pupils in attendance or the faculty; and I'll provide
both counsel and the Court a copy of this at the conclusion
of this case. This is a case from the Fourth Circuit, en banc,
five to two.
157
THE COURT: All right.
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BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, you have stated in your report
that integration is a worthy goal, is that true?
A Yes.
Q Would you say that it's a worthy goal to have
eighteen white pupils in attendance at Gilliam school with
144 Negro pupils?
A I actually do not know. Since we have never really
experienced this, I think it would probably be advantageous
to have a balance other than that, actually.
Q Do you think it's a worthy goal to have three
Negro students out of 1400 approximately at Hall High School?
A No, I would not classify that as having fully met
a worthy goal.
Q Isn't it true that the economic circumstances of
the people who live in the Hall High School area is substantia .
above that of the average person in the community, or is above
that of the average person in the community?
A I would assume that is true without examining their
bank statements.
Q And isn't it further true that the pupils who live
in the Horace Mann attendance areas, white or black, are the
lower socio-economic classification?
A Yes.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 158
Q So that those white pupils., who would be few in
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
159
number at Horace Mann and the other schools on the east side,
would not have the same advantage for an education in which
their race was in the majority as the pupils who live in the
Hall High area; is that true under the geographic attendance
area?
^ ̂ ^ like for you to repeat that, please, just the
question.
THE COURi: He means, does the poor student have
as good an opportunity as the --
THE WITNESS: If that is the question, they may hav2
as good an opportunity, but they may not have the background
to take advantage of the opportunity that they have.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q I see. Now, what I'm driving at also, Mr. Parsons,
is whether the white pupils who live in those areas which are
predominantly Negro could be expected, from what you know
about movement in this city of pupils and their parents, if
they had the financial ability to locate in other communities,
other neighborhoods within the city?
tA I think there's a possibility that they would do
this, yes.
Q Would that be a considerable possibility in your
judgement?
A I think so. That is couched in the terms you couchec
it, if they were financially able to do so.
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Q So that if they were financially able to do so,
what you would have within a relatively short period of time
on a zoning basis or zoning plan, is almost all, if not all,
Negro schools in terms of pupils on the east side of Little
Rock, and almost all, if not all, white schools on the west
side of Little Rock, with the situation being as it presently
is.
A I think this is a likelihood, especially in the
areas where the differential between the number of Negroes
and number of white zoned within an area where this differentia
was very great. I think this is a possibility.
Q Have you had any complaints about Hall High School
being reserved for the persons who are members of the school
board who happen to be white?
THE COURT: I don't --
MR. WALKER: Let me rephrase the question. I think
this is very relevant to something I'm driving at.
THE COURT: Has he had complaints? That is too vaguo
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Where do all of the white board members live? In
which high school zone do they live?
A I'd have to analyze it one at a time.
Q Let’s take Mr. Jenkins.
A Unfortunately, I don't know where all of then live.
THE COURT: If you don't know, say so, and let's
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
pass to the next question.
MR. FRIDAY: Just say you don't know.
THE COURT: That's right.
THE WITNESS: All right. Mr. Jenkins lives in
Walton Heights. Mr. Woods lives in Leawood Heights.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Both of those are in the Hall High district?
A Yes. Dr. Barron lives very close to Forest Park
School.
Q This is Hall High School.
, t
A Brown and Meeks and --
Q Meeks and Woods.
A I mentioned Mr. Wood; he lives in Leawood Heights.
Mr. Drummond lives just a few blocks east of Mississippi.
Q That is Hall High area?
A That's correct. I do not know where the others live
Q Who have we left out?
A Mr. Meeks and Mr. Brown.
Q You said Mr. Brown lives in this area.
A I didn't say it, but I think he does. I said Mr.
Woods. I know Mr. Brown lives in Leawood Heights, too.
Q What about Mr. Meeks?
A I don't know. I don't know where Mr. Meeks lives.
Q All right. And you have one other member of the
Board who is a Negro, Mr. Patterson.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
A Mr. Patterson. I'm not sure just exactly where Mr.
Patterson lives. I'm sure we have his address at the office,
but I don't know where he lives.
Q But you do know that he doesn't live in the Hall
High School District?
A Well, I assume he doesn't if he has a high school
child, because I don't believe he has a child going to Hall
High.
Q All right, sir. You identified, then, on page
twelve of your report, as a major problem facing our schools,
one, "no meaningful integration at Hall". Is that true?
A That's true.
Q Now, under the zoning plan, do you think you will
have meaningful integration, the one that you have proposed?
A No. No. There would be very little integration.
Q Now, do you see the threat of re-segregation as a
major problem affecting the schools?
A Well, certain schools, perhaps.
Q Why would re-segregation present a problem to the
district?
A Because of the migration, perhaps, of families out
of the area in which their children would attend school under
a zoning plan --or even under a freedom of choice plan, for
that matter.
Q Well, what would be the problem?
162
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
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A Of re-segregation?
Q Yeo. hhat's such a problem about re-segregation?
A Maybe there is no problem, but there has always --
it has always seemed to be identified as a problem, in that
if a school is predominantly white and, as Mitchell did,
shixts to predominantly Negro, and increases in the percentage
of Negroes and decreases in the percentage of whites, it can
become an all-Negro school where it was formerly an all-white
school; so if segregation is a problem, re-segregation would
be a problem.
Q All right. Thank you.
Now, you have identified Mitchell School, then,
as a problem area where this has occurred, is that true?
A Where it has become predominantly Negro, yes.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I call your attention to
the Exhibit No. 12, and address your direction to the south of
Central High School. You will see a school listed as Mitchell
Elementary School, which, under the zoning plan prepared by
the District, would have approximately 292 Negro pupils and
102 white pupils.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Is that -- can you -- ?
A I'm sure that's correct, yes.
Q Now, have you had a problem there with teachers
wanting to transfer from Mitchell, Mr. Parsons?
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A From Mitchell?
Q Yes.
A Yes, we have.
»*
Q And isn't that because of the fact that those
teachers had difficulties with the new racial composition of
the student body?
A Yes, I think so.
Q I see. So that if the school had remained mostly
Negro, isn't it a fair conclusion that -- or mostly white,
isn't it a fair conslusion that you would not have had the
dissatisfaction from the teachers that you had?
A I think there is a good possibility that would be
true. Of course, I'm not positive that it would.
Q And wouldn't it also be true for most of the other
schools that you have had on the east side -- that you would
have less dissatisfaction from the teachers, most of them
being white, and they would be happier if their student bodies
were predominantly white?
A I'd like to hear your question again.
Q Isn't it true that you would have less -dissatisfact.
from the white teachers under this plan and the proportional
assignment plan, and the teachers would be happier -- the whit?
teachers, now, I'm talking about --
A All right.
Q --if you had larger numbers or majority white
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 164
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student bodies in these schools?
THE COURT: I think he is indicating the merits of
the Parsons Plan.
THE WITNESS: I think this is partially true, yes.
BY MR. WALKER:- ,
Q This is partially true. You would not now hold
to that as a basic premise?
A Not in every instance. In general, I think it's
true, but there, I can see certain exceptions to it on the
part of some of the teachers; but, generally, I'd say this
is true.
Q Do you think you would have experienced the difficiE.
in getting the faculty desegregation in the Negro schools that
you have experienced if you had had a large number of white
pupils in each school?
A Well, Mr. Walker, then they would no longer have
been Negro schools. I really can't answer your question.
Q I see. So the number of Negro pupils you have in
a particular school determines whether that's a Negro school
or not.
A Well, you said "in Negro schools", I believe, and
if you had a large number of whites -- well, now, then, when
does it change?
Q I'm asking you. If you had had a context in which
a white teacher was moving into a situation where her race
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
165
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would not be in the minority, either as a faculty member, or
being where pupils, white pupils, were in the minority, do
you think you would have had the same difficulty in getting
white teachers to go into, say, schools on the east side?
A No, I do not think we would have had as much
difficulty as we have experienced, if seventy per cent of each
student body were white and thirty per cent Negro, which is
probably what you are leading up to.
Q Yes.
A No, we probably wouldn't have had as much difficulty
getting faculty to work there.
Q So that your faculty difficulties are in a large
part resultant from the lack of substantial pupil desegregatio i
in the Negro schools.
A The white to the Negro?
Q Yes.
A Much of it, I'm sure, is due to that, yes.
Q Now, were you superintendent, Mr. Parsons, when
Rightsell was converted from a white school to a Negro school?
A Not really, but I came the summer --on August 1,
prior to the time that Rightsell was officially opened in
September as a Negro school. The decision to do it had been
made.
Q I see. That was in 1961.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
166
A That's correct.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 167
Q I sec. So that you shifted all of the white pupils
fiom that school and assigned them to other schools within
reasonable proximity.
A I'm sure this is true.
Q And you populated Rightsell with an all-black
faculty.
A Right.
Q I see. Isn't it true that you had several whites
who filed a lawsuit seeking to enjoin you from converting
Rightsell to an all-black school?
A I believe -- I believe that is correct. I think
that was my first appearance as a visitor in the courts.
Q And isn’t it true that they asked that that school
be integrated, but the board took the position that "it is not
called for at this stage of the plan, so we will not do it”?
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, we object --
THE WITNESS: I do not remember that phase of it.
MR. FRIDAY: -- as he can only state this if he
knows.
t
MR. WALKER: Mr. Parsons was a defendant at that
time, Your Honor. I'm trying to prevent having to put the
record of the whole case in.
THE WITNESS: I do not know.
MR. FRIDAY: He can't state it if he doesn't know.
We're objecting.
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*1 iIE WITNESS: No, I do not know.
THE COURT: We are wasting time, gentlemen.
I want to ask you if you know. If you know, answer
him. If you don't know, say so.
THE WITNESS: I do not know --
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: -- anything about the Rightsell case.
THE COURT: If you can remember that, Mr. Parsons,
we will save a little time.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, would you know whether Rightsell
was at that time located in the midst of a well-integrated
neighborhood?
A I have no idea.
Q You don't know.
A No, sir.
Q Do you know what the composition of that neighbor
hood is now?
A No, sir.
t
Q You don't. Have you visited Rightsell recently?
A Yes, sir.
Q Why then would you convert it, if you don't know
■what the racial composition of the area is, from a white school
to a Negro school?
A I didn't convert it.
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
168
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Q I see. Mow, Mr. Parsons, isn't it true that, since
you have been superintendent, you have also closed East Side
Junior High School?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was East Side in reasonably good repair at the tine
it was closed?
A Very poor repair, actually.
Q Have you made substantial repairs to it since then?
A Not from school funds, no.
Q Not from school funds. But you have made repairs
to it.
A There have been repairs made by the Adult Vocations.
School, yes.
Q And it is being used now as an Adult Vocational
School?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
169
A
Q
A
Q
with the
that you
A
Q
Yes.
Running both day and night.
Yes.
I see. Now, isn't it true that almost simultaneously
closing of East Side, which was about 1963 or *64,
opened the Boolcer Junior High School?
Yes.
And isn't it true that the Negro pupils who were in
attendance at the East Side Junior High School were assigned
Booker Junior High School?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
170
A Mr. Walker, I do not know.
Q All right. But isn’t it true that the white pupils
were assigned by the Board to other schools in the community
than Booker?
A I do not know. We were probably already under freed3
of choice, but I’m not sure of that.
Q You don’t know?
A No.
Q How would it be, then -- how could you decide that
you needed a new junior high school in 1963 or ’64 on the
east side of Little Rock when you already had a junior high
school which may have been in reasonably good repair, or at
least capable of being repaired and used for some other
facility?
A There were, I'm sure, sufficient pupils living in
the general area --if you are talking about Booker -- there
were sufficient pupils living in the general area of the
Booker Junior High School building to justify the construction
of such a building.
Q Didn't you have a number of vacant classrooms at
East Side at the time?
A We may have. Our offices were there, in fact.
Q Your offices were there?
A Yes.
Q Isn't it true, though, that for a whole semester,
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you transported students way out from Highway 10, the whole
pupil population of Henderson Junior High School, over to East
Side Junior High School for instructional classes?
A Yes, sir, that is correct.
Q And you transported them by bus?
A Right.
Q Provided by the district?
A Right.
Q On your bussing policy, historically, Mr. Parsons,
isn’t it true that until 1966, the school district -- this is
to your knowledge -- the school district operated buses for
the Negro pupils who lived out in an area known as John Barrow
and out that way, so that they could get to either Stephens
Elementary School or Dunbar Junior High School or Horace Mann
High School?
A I'm not sure of the schools, but there were buses -
a bus or buses operated from this area for the purpose of
bringing these pupils in, yes.
Q All right. And wasn't this compulsory up to the
time that you began operating under pupil placement?
A I do not know about that, because we were under
pupil placement when I came to Little Rock.
Q All right. But buses were pro\Tided for Negro pupils
who lived in the remote western parts of the city to attend
elementary, junior high and high schools in the Negro sections
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
171
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 172
of town.
A Under the freedom of choice plan during the past
few years, yes.
Q So you permitted bussing under freedom of choice for
pupils who wanted to have segregated education.
A We did. That’s correct.
Q But you have no plans, it is true, to permit bussin;
at this point to undo that effect?
A No, we have eliminated all bussing in the district.
Q I see. Now, would you identify, from the factors
that have been made known to you, Hall as a school that has
been built since 1956 and populated since 1956?
A I'm sure this is true, yes, sir.
Q I see. Would you also state whether, in the central
part of this city, any new schools have been built since 1956?
Now, by "central part of the city", let me identify the areas.
I am referring to an area immediately north of Ish
School, 28th Street, up to where the Missouri Pacific Railroad
line runs to the southern part of the city, all of the way up
tthe district lines run into University Avenue -- all of the way
to University Avenue, north to Evergreen, and let me come down
to what would be Eighth Street, and then straight down Eighth
Street east to Broadway, and then Broadway would be the easterr
boundary.
A Now, you were on University Avenue to Evergreen and
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
173
then you came to Eighth, didn't you?
Q Yes. University Avenue, Eighth Street, Broadway,
and the aailroad track, and this little area at the perimeter
of the school district lines.
A I do not know.
Q Hasn't there been a great change in the racial
population of that area?
A I have no idea.
Q Mr. Parsons, how do you justify your statement on
page four of your report which says that: "Housing patterns
in i.he city are largely segregated. There have been some
infiltrations by Negroes into the
THE COURT: Now, you have read that to him one time
He is familiar with that.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q You remember that statement. How do you justify
that statement?
A On the basis of what you said, I didn't even follow
you. Frankly, I didn't follow your zone lines at all.
Q Then I will give them to you again. I will run
this around --
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I have been on the witness
stand since about 10:00 o'clock this morning, and I'm not as
-- I don't feel as capable of answering these questions. There
is such a thing as a person getting tired.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
174
THE COURT: When you get too tired, let me know,
Mr. Parsons. If you are too tired now —
THE WITNESS: I'm too tired.
THE COURT: All right. Let me say this.
We have belabored the past long enough. From now
cn, Mr. Walker, I am going to confine your cross examination
to matters that have occurred since December 15, 1966, the
date of the opinion of the Court of Appeals in Clark. We've
got to have a cut-off here some time. We have spent the after
noon on history, and we are not going back of this opinion.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
I would respectfully, for the record, except.
THE COURT: That's all right.
Now, would you indicate to me ’./here you stand,
about, on the cross examination of Mr. Parsons?
MR. WALKER: Well, Your Honor, there are some other
parts of his report -- let me state my position right now sc
you will know it.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WALKER: I think the Supreme Court - decision
stated succinctly that if there are reasonably available
alternatives which would bring about greater desegregation
than freedom of choice, then the board has a heavy responsi
bility to justify why it doesn't use some of those alternative:
than the ones that they propose to use or have been using.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
1 7 5
THE COURT: Freedom of choice.
MR. WALKER: Freedom of choice.
THE COURT: That's right.
MR. WALKER: Now, I think the Court has further
stated that whichever one produced the greatest degree of
desegregation and moved the district furtherest toward the
unitary school system would be the one that the district
would have to --
THE COURT: Who said that?
MR. WALKER: I think the Supreme Court indicated
that in its opinion.
THE COURT: I did not think so.
MR. WALKER: All right, sir. That's a legal pro
position and we will get to that later.
THE COURT: That’s right.
MR. WALKER: But we do want to be in a position to
show that there are alternatives available to the district --
THE COURT: You may do so.
MR. WALKER: Now, Mr. Parsons wants a rest, and I
suggest, Your Honor, that we should take maybe a five or ten
minute recess.
THE COURT: No, I think he needs or wants a longer
rest than that.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, until in the morning would
be fine, Your Honor.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
176
MR. WALKER: Now, Your Honor, I will be able to
conclude ray examination with him, if I’m able to just study
all of these documents that I have, within a short period
of time when we resume.
THE COURT: All right. Would it be possible to use
thirty minutes on another witness, or would that throw your
case out of line?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, sir. I will put Mr. Fowler on.
THE COURT: All right.
(Discussion off the record.)
(Witness excused)
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Barron
Thereupon,
177
EDWIN M. BARRON, JR.
having been called as a witness by counsel for defendants, and
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q State your name, please.
A Edwin M. Barron, Jr.
Q What is your profession?
A Physician.
Q You occupy a position with the Little Rock School
District?
A Yes, sir, I'm president of the Little Rock school
board.
Q How long have you been on the board, Dr. Barron?
A Will be two years in September.
Q Doctor, do you have an understanding of your obli-
gation as a director of the Little Rock school board concerning
pupil and staff desegregation?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is that understanding?
A To encompass that which is educationally sound, to
follow that which is constitutionally acceptable, and perform
within the realm of legality the function of my office.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Barron 178
THE COURT: Doctor, will you please speak a little
louder?
THE WITNESS : To encompass that which is educational
sound, to act In a constitutional manner to run the school
district, assist in running the school district in a consti
tutional manner, and to perform my duties in a legally respon
sible manner.
BY 3 R. FRIDAY:
Q Are you familiar with the desegregation plan of
the district prior to the end of May, 1968, with reference to
pupils?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was that plan?
A Freedom of choice plan.
Q You have heard Mr. Parsons describe the plan.
A Yes, sir.
Q Are you familiar with the operations of the district
with reference to staff desegregation?
A Yes, sir.
Q What has the district been doing, or under what
procedures has it been operating?
A At one previous school board meeting, I believe,
that has been identified by Mr. Parsons, the school board did
direct to set a number for staff desegregation. This has just
remained as a policy of the board since that date; and since
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Barron 179
that time, the board has encouraged both individually and as
a board the Superintendent of Personnel and the Superintendent;
of Schools, Mr. Parsons, to achieve the maximum, practical,
practicable degree of staff desegregation.
Q But you have not directed arbitrary reassignment?
A No, sir.
Q You know what I mean by arbitrary as distinguished
from voluntary.
A Yes, sir.
Q Are you acquainted with the resolution that the bo
adopted this morning?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you subscribe to this resolution?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q Do you subscribe to the point that it would be
disruptive to the school district to change student and pupil
assignment procedures at this tine?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you feel that you need until December 1 to comcjl
up with a permanent solution?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q Will you be prepared to come up with a permanent
solution by December 1?
A Every effort will be made in that direction, yes,
sir.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 180
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Dr. Barron, how long have you been president of
the board?
A Since March.
Q Who was your successor? (sic.)
A Dr. John Harrel.
Q Would you state whether the board intended before
March, when you became president of the board, to submit to
the electorate the decision whether or not to approve the
Parse s Plan?
A It did.
Q It did?
Did any board members endorse that particular plan
as a method for achieving some different —
A Yes.
Q Who were the board members who endorsed the Parsons
Plan?
A It was endorsed by Dr. John Harrel, by Mrs. Jean
Gordon, by Mr. Winslow Drummond, by Mr. T. E. Patterson, and
by myself.
Q And Patterson, and Barron.
What happened to Dr. Harrel and Mrs. Gordon? Did
they run for re-election at the same time that the Parsons
Plan was submitted to the electorate?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 181
Yos, they did, and they were defeated.
By substantial numbers?
I don't remember the numbers.
I see. All right, do you recall the Oregon Report?
Yes.
l/hat board members endorsed the Oregon Report?
I recall only one board member that made endorsemen:
of the entire report, Mr. Jim Coates.
Q What board members, to your knowledge, were in
facor of the Oregon Report?
A I don't know.
Q Would it be a fair statement, Dr. Barron, based on
a school board meeting at which Mr. Parsons presented his
opposition, that at that time the only person, the only board
member, who took a position directly opposed to the Oregon
Plan was yourself?
A Repeat that, please.
Q At a school board meeting at which time the
Oregon Plan was discussed by the board, the first time that it
was discussed, at which time Mr. Parsons took a position in
opposition to the Oregon Report, that the only board member whc
took a position in opposition to the Oregon Report was yourseli:
A No, that's not true.
Q What other board member took a position in oppositicr
to the Oregon Report at that time?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 182
A \our question -- your statement was that I took
opposition to the report, which is not true. I had opposed thi.
majority of the specific recommendations, and prepared a paper
and gave it to the board, stating just that. I never at any
time said I opposed the Oregon Report, per se.
Q fou did state you were the only one to take the
position in opposition to most of the items in the Oregon
Report.
A The majority of specific recommendations, and then
stated the recommendations.
Q But you were the only one to take that position.
A That's correct.
Q I see. And Mr. Coates and Mr. Bass were on the
board at that time, isn't that true?
A That's right.
Q And isn't it true that when the Oregon Plan was
more or less submitted to the voters in 1967, March, that the
Oregon Plan was defeated by the voters?
A It — no.
Q That the recommendations that were made with regard
to financing, the necessai-y financing, contained in the Oregon
Report, was defeated?
A No.
Q What happened, Doctor?
A It was never voted on by the public.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 183
Q What happened to Mr. Coates who was a proponent
of the Oregon Plan? Did he submit himself in March to the
electorate for re-election?
A Yes, and he was defeated.
Q The same is true of Mr. Bass, is that true?
A No, that's incorrect.
Q Mr. Bass was not defeated?
A Mr. Bass was defeated, but he did not run on the
basis of the Oregon Report, as I recall.
Q He was generally identified with it, though.
THE COURT: Now, let’s don't —
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Is it true that of the persons who have had to
come before the electorate who have taken a position for a
plan to accelerate desegregation in Little Rock have been
defeated?
A That's incorrect.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 184
Q That's incorrect?
A Yes.
Q All of them who have taken a position who have
come before the electorate have been defeated?
A No.
Q Name one who has taken a position in support of
either the Parsons Plan or the Oregon Plan since -- who is --
A You didn't say Parsons or Oregon Plan, you said
anything that would increase integration.
Q Right, and I’m sorry, I apologize.
Do you know whether either board member has taken
a position in favor of the Parsons Plan or the Oregon Plan
who has not come up for re-election is still on the board?
A Those that have not come up for re-election are
not still on the board favored the Parsons or the Oregon
plan.
MR. WALKER: What I'm trying to drive at, Your
Honor, I guess we could do it by stipulation, Mr. Friday, that
the persons who supported Mr. Parsons' plan who have come up
for election, or who came up for election in the last election
were defeated by the electorate.
MR. FRIDAY: I'll stipulate who came up and who
was defeated, Your Honor.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 185
T1IE WITNESS: I don't know that it was on the basi.
of the Parsons or the Oregon plan —
MR. WALKER: I'm not asking; you whether it was on
the basis of —
TIIE WITNESS: — whether a person wins or loses an
election.
MR. WALKER: I'rn not asking you whether it was on
that basis, I'm asking whether those people were defeated.
THE COURT: What people?
MR. WALKER: The persons who supported the Parsons
plan specifically.
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q And Mr. Coates who supported the Oregon plan?
A That's only partly correct, Mr. Coates reversed
his stand on the Oregon plan before the election, and stated
that he was in favor of the neighborhood school system.
Q All right,sir. Mr. Coates was defeated?
A That's correct, I cannot say that he really en-
t
compassed the Oregon plan at the time of the election.
Q lie was the person most identified on ten board—
THE COURT: Now, that's enough of that, I've heard
all I want to hear about that.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q All right then. Now, Dr. Barron, tie board has had a
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 186
policy since you have been on the board, of filling faculty
vacancies on a the faculty desegregation plan has been one
of filling vacancies on a voluntary assignment, is that true?
A That's correct.
Q I see. Do you have an opinion as to how long it
would take to achieve racial balance in the faculty according
to the formula tha t the Judge suggested by that procedure?
A Precise racial balance can never be achieveu.
Q Approximately?
A You can't half or third people.
Q I mean approximately?
A There would be no way that I could say that.
Q Have you directed your administrative staff to
bring about racial balance at any time in the past prior to
the Judge's letter?
A No.
Q Has the board adopted any resolution since you hav
been president of the board which deals with faculty desegrega
tion, accelerating the rate of faculty desegregation?
fA Not in resolutions, but I think you misunderstand
the purpose of the school board. WE have a superintendent of
personnel and a superintendent of school district that are
responsible for certain areas. This has carried forth since
the previous direction from the board, and the board has
presently constituted — did understand that this was the
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 187
desire or the board to continue in staff integration, and
staj-f integration has been furthered.
Q But you haven't given the administrative staff any
specific directions as did the previous board, for instance,
to double or triple the degree of desegregation in the faculty >
A No.
0 What before the Judge's letter did you perceive
as the goal to be achieved that you were required to achieve
by the Court of Appeals?
A Repeat that please?
Q What was the faculty goal that you as the presideni.
of the board, or the board if you know, had for ultimate
faculty desegregation, I mean in terms of numbers or percent
ages —
A I was not aware there had been a percentage basis
of any type put on this but to proceed with a meaningful
desegregation of the faculty, which we have been attempting
to do in considering the human rights and the human dignity
of the teachers themselves.
Q Well, that is a term I don't understand, would you
explain that, you say "human rights of the teachers"?
A When we speak of the school system or plan or
v/e speak of numbers, it is easy to forget that these are
people, and we must consider the feeling of £>eople, ana how
these people react in given situations, and this is precisely
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 188
what I mean by considering the individual.
Q The huruan rights of the teachers. Dr. Barron, when
you hire a teacher in Little Rock do you hire that person for
a particular school or for the system?
A We hire it for a particular school. Mr. Parsons
pointed this out very clearly, that they are hired for a
particular position.
Q They are hired for a particular position?
A That's correct.
Q They are not hired to teach in the system gener
ally?
A That is correct.
Q Are you familiar with the policy handbook, Dr.
Barron?
A Yes, sir.
Q What does your school policy with regard to
transfers say?
A The school policy is presently 120 days. Mr.
Parsons did point on this 120 days would be required, we are
now in professional negotiations agreement require 90 days
on school transfers except in unusual and in warranting cir
cumstances.
Q Are you familiar with the handbook of policies?
A
Q
Yes, sir.
CAn you state to me — I show you this handbook
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 189
of administrative policies for the Little Rock school district,
and ask you to identify it?
A Yes, I can identify that, the cover.
Q Do you have any reason to believe this is not
an accurate —
A No.
MR. WALKER: I don't care to introduce this at
this time, Your Honor, we would like to present it when we
present our case.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Doctor, would you take that administrative manual
and refer to the specific section in there whereby you state
that a teacher cannot be assigned until 120 days have passed,
the one you just stated ?
MR. WALKER: If Mr. Friday wants to help him, Your
Honor, I would be happy to —
MR. FRIDAY: Let me see it.
MR. WALKER: Thsi is the one I obtained from the
district.
t
THE COURT: I got the impression this morning
that that was part of current negotiations with the teachers.
MR. WALKER: That is correct. Well, Your Honor,
I think the position that has been taken thus far is that
they have always had this policy whereby teachers would be
assigned or given notice of their assignment at the close of
CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 190
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1 the school year just completed , near the time they get their
contract for the new year, the coming year, and this would be
approximately 90 days between the time they get the contract
and the time that the new school year begins. I think this
is the position the Teachers Association has taken in inter
vention .
MR. FRIDAY: Mr. Parsons testified, if he mention
it I have forgotten now whether in this discussion, I have
talked to him so much, 120 days arrived at by this language
because his testimony was contracts offered in April or May
ana this refers to the offering time, and if you compute it
from that time then it does come out making 120 days.
THE COURT: I don11 expect a board member to be
able to lay his hands on a regulation.
MR. WALKER: If it would help, Your Honor, this
is on page 46, transfers?
THE WITNESS: Correct.
BY MR. WALKER;
Q I ask you to read the first sentence of that pro-
t
vision, would you please, just the first sentence?
A "All teachers, principals, and other staff
members subjected to transfer at the direction
of the superintendent of schools."
Q Do you understand that then to mean that a teacher
hired to work in a particular school or in the district?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 191
A 1'ra g o i n g o n t h e b a s i s w e h a v e b e e n a d v i s e d b y
c o u n s e l in p r o f e s s i o n a l n e g o t i a t i o n s w i t h t h e t e a c h e r s .
Q A l l r i g h t , y o u a r e n o t r e l y i n g o n t h i s p o l i c y ?
A Y e s , I a m r e l y i n g o n t h a t p o l i c y b u t as i t is
i n t e r p r e t e d t o m e b y o u r c o u n s e l .
Q I s e e , b u t c o u l d y o u c i t e t h e p a r t i c u l a r --
T H E C O U R T : h e h a s a n s w e r e d y o u .
M R . W A L K E R : I w i l l i n t r o d u c e t h e e n t i r e p o l i c y
b o o k i n t o t h e r e c o r d a t t h e a p p r o p r i a t e t i m e .
B Y M R . W A L K E R :
Q Now7, h a v e y o u n e g o t i a t e d a c o n t r a c t w i t h t h e
T e a c h e r s A s s o c i a t i o n to t h e e f f e c t , h a v e y o u a l r e a d y n e g o t i a
t e d a c o n t r a c t n o w ?
A N o t a c o n t r a c t , P r o f e s s i o n a l A s s o c i a t i o n a g r e e m e n t
Q H a v e y o u n e g o t i a t e d an a g r e e m e n t ?
A W e h a v e .
Q W h i c h h a s b e e n s i g n e d ?
A W e h a v e .
Q W h i c h s a y s t h a t a t e a c h e r w i l l b e e n t i t l e d t o 90
t
d a y s n o t i c e b e f o r e a t r a n s f e r is m a d e ?
A W i t h s t i p u l a t i o n , t h a t ' s c o r r e c t . T h i s is f r o m
p r e v i o u s n e g o t i a t i o n s w h e r e i n n e g o t i a t i o n s at t h i s t i m e
n o t h i n g h a s b e e n s i g n e d w i t h t h e p r e s e n t n e g o t i a t i o n s .
Q
A
Y o u s a y p r e v i o u s n e g o t i a t i o n s e s t a b l i s h e d --
T h e r e w a s a n e g o t i a t i o n t h a t w a s p u t i n e f f e c t a
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 192
y e a r a g o , b u t w e a r e u n d e r c u r r e n t r e n e g o t i a t i o n s a n d r e w r i t i n
t h e p r o f e s s i o n a l n e g o t i a t i o n s a g r e e m e n t . I c a n ' t r e c a l l p r e
c i s e l y t h e w o r d i n g oi t h e n e g o t i a t i o n s f r o m a y e a r a g o .
Q W a s t h a t r e d u c e d t o w r i t i n g ?
A S i r ?
Q W a s t h a t a g r e e m e n t r e d u c e d t o w r i t i n g ?
A T h e agree.ment w e s i g n e d a y e a r a g o w a s i n w r i t i n g ,
t h a t is c o r r e c t .
Q I t d i d c o n t a i n a 90 d a y p r o v i s i o n ?
A I ' m n o t c e r t a i n .
Q Y o u d o n 't k n o w ?
A No.
M R . VvALKER: M r . F r i d a y , at t h i s t i m e I w o u l d l i k e
t o r e q u e s t t h a t f o r t h i s w i t n e s s f u r t h e r e x a m i n a t i o n o f t h i s
w i t n e s s , m a y b e i t c o u l d b e d o n e w i t h s o m e o n e e l s e , I h a v e a
c o p y o f t h e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e T e a c h e r s A s s o c i a t i o n a n d
t h e d i s t r i c t . I n e e d n o t c o n t i n u e wTi t h h i m o n t h a t p o i n t .
MR . F R I D A Y : Dr. B a r r o n c a n n o t b e h e r e t o m o r r o w .
MR. W A L K E R : M a y b e s o m e o t h e r w i t n e s s c o u l d b e —
t
T H E C O U R T : If I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c t l y , t h e
w i t n e s s s t a t e s , o r h a s t e s t i f i e d , t h e r e w a s a n a g r e e m e n t , a
s i g n e d c o n t r a c t o r a g r e e m e n t , in e f f e c t l a s t y e a r ; t n a t o n e
is c u r r e n t l y b e i n g r e n e g o t i a t e d f o r t h i s c o m i n g y e a r , b u t as
I u n a e r s t a n d it, h a s n o t y e t b e e n e x e c u t e d ?
T H E W I T N E S S : Tiat is c o r r e c t .
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 193
T H E C O U R T : S o t h e r e q u e s t is f o r t h e o n e l a s t
y e a r ?
MR. W A L K E R : Y e s , sir.
T H E C O U R T : O n e o f t h e s t a f f m e n c a n b r i n g t h a t .
B Y M R . W A L K E R :
Q D i d t h e B o a r d o f D i r e c t o r s a d o p t a r e s o l u t i o n , o r
t a k e o t h e r s p e c i f i c a c t i o n o r a u t h o r i z e t h e s u p e r i n t e n d e n t
t o t a k e a c t i o n , w h e r e b y t h e C l a s s r o o m T e a c h e r s O r g a n i z a t i o n ,
as a n o r g a n i z a t i o n , w o u l d b e a s k e d t o i n t e r v e n e i n t h i s a c t i o r k
A No .
Q I t d i d n o t ?
A No .
Q Y o u d i d n o t a u t h o r i z e t h e s u p e r i n t e n d e n t t o a s k
t h e m t o i n t e r v e n e i n t h i s a c t i o n ?
A N o .
Q D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e s u p e r i n t e n d e n t a s k e d t h e m
t o i n t e r v e n e i n t h i s a c t i o n ?
A N o .
Q D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e s u p e r i n t e n d e n t a s k e d t h e
t e a c h e r s t o t a k e a p o s i t i o n o n t h e s u b j e c t o f f a c u l t y d e s e g
r e g a t i o n ?
A N o .
Q D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r h e a s k e d t h e p r i n c i p a l t o t a k e
a p o s i t i o n o n t h e i s s u e of f a c u l t y d e s e g r e g a t i o n ?
A No .
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 194
Q D i d y o u a u t h o r i z e s u c h ?
A N o
T H E C O U R T : R o w inany " N o s " d o y o u w a n t n o w , Mr.
W a l k e r ?
B Y MR . W A L K E R :
0 Dr . B a r r o n , i n y o u r j u d g m e n t as b o a r d p r e s i d e n t ,
i n t e r m s o f n u m b e r s o f N e g r o p u p i J s b e i n g a s s i g n e d t o f o r m e r l y
w h i t e s c h o o l s a n d v i c e v e r s a , w o u l d y o u s t a t e w h e t h e r i t is
t h e b o a r d ' s b e l i e f t h a t t h e P a r s o n s p l a n , b a s i c p l a n , f o r
g e t t i n g n o w s o m e o f t h e l i t t l e p r o b l e m s w i t h it, w o u l d h a v e
b r o u g h t a b o u t g r e a t e r r a c i a l b a l a n c e i n t h e s c h o o l s o f t h e
d i s t r i c t w i t h w h i c h i t c o n c e r n s i t s e l f ?
A Y e s , i t w o u l d h a v e b r o u g h t a b o u t g r e a t e r r a c i a l
b a l a n c e i f —
Q I n o t h e r w o r d s , t h e s c h o o l d i s t r i c t h a d t h a t o p t i o r
a v a i l a b l e t o i t as e a r l y as M a r c h o f t h i s c u r r e c t s c h o o l y e a r ,
is t h a t t r u e ?
A T h a t 's c o r r e c t .
Q I s e e . N o w , w o u l d t h e O r e g o n p l a n h a v e b r o u g h t
t
a b o u t g r e a t e r r a c i a l b a l a n c e in e v e r y r e s p e c t t h a n t h e c u r r e n t
g e o g r a p h i c p l a n o r f r e e d o m of c h o i c e ?
A I d o n 11 k n o w .
Q A r e y o u f a m i l i a r w i t h t h e O r e g o n p l a n ?
A Y e s .
Q Y o u d o n ' t k n o w w h e t h e r it w o u l d h a v e b r o u g h t a b o u v
CROSS EXAMINATION - Barron 195
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g r e a t e r r a c i a l b a l a n c e i n e a c h of t h e s c h o o l s ?
A b i o .
Q Y o u cio n o t ?
A I n s o m e of t h e s c h o o l s i t v/oulu, b u t n o t a l l .
0 I n m o s t o f t h e s c h o o l s I ' m t a l k i n g a b o u t , t h e r e
m a y h a v e b e e n o n e o r t w o e x c e p t i o n s .
A I w o u l d a s s u m e yes.
Q Y o u w o u l d , i.oula t h e p l a n t h a t I p r e p a r e d a n d s u b
m i t t e d t o t h e b o a r d a t t h e m e e t i n g a t w h i c h t i m e y o u r e q u e s t e u
p l a n s h a v e b r o u g h t a b o u t g r e a t e r n u m e r i c a l r a c i a l b a l a n c e i n
e a c h o n e o f t h e s c h o o l s ?
A W h i c h p l a n ?
Q T h e o n e t h a t I p r e s e n t e d t o t h e b o a r d o f D i r e c t o r s
A I s t h i s t h e o n e y o u w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t w h e n y o u
c a l l e d m e f r o m N e w Y o r k a c o u p l e o f w e e k s a g o ?
Q I d o n ' t k n o w w h i c h --
T H E C O U R T : Hr. W a l k e r , l e t m e t e l l y o u , a t 4 : 2 9
w e a r e g o i n g t o a d j o u r n f o r t h e d a y a n d t h i s w i t n e s s is g o i n g
t o b e e x c u s e d , a n d if y o u h a v e a n y p r i o r i t y m a t t e r s y o u b e t t e r
t a k e t h e m up.
M R . W A L K E R : A l l r i g h t , Y o u r h o n o r .
I t a k e i t t h a t I c a n i n q u i r e o f s o m e o f t h e o t h e r
b o a r d m e m b e r s w h o s e s c h e d u l e s w i l l p e r m i t , Y o u r h o n o r , t h e
v i c e - p r e s i d e n t w i l l b e a b l e — I w i l l d i s p e n s e w i t h t h e
w i t n e s s a t t h i s t i m e s o t h a t w e c a n a d j o u r n e a r l y .
(Witness excused.)
196
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THi; C O U R T : K e w i l l a d j o u r n u n t i l 9 : 3 0 i n th e
m o r n i n g .
proceedings
the morning
(Whereupon, at 4:30 o'clock,
were recessed, to reconvene
of the following day, August
P
at
• n\ • j
9:30
the abve-entitl
o 'clock, a.m.,
a
16, 1968.)
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197
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
DELORES CLARK, et al,
Plaintiffs, :
v.
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, et al,
Defendants.
No. LR-64-C-155
x
— T R I A L —
BE IT REMEMBERED, That the above-entitled matter
continued for trial before The Honorable GORDON E. YOUNG, Un
States District Judge, commencing at 9:30 o'clock, a.m., on
Friday, August 16, 1968.
APPEARANCES:
JOHN W. WALKER, Esq., 1820 West 13th Street, Little
Rock, Arkansas, appearing for the plaintiffs.
HERSCHEL H. FRIDAY, Esq., and JOE EELL, Esq., of
Smith, Williams, Friday & Bowen, Boyle Building,
Little Rock, Arkansas, appearing for the
defendants.
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193
C O N T E N T S
THE WITNESS
Daniel H. Woods
T. E. Patterson
William H. Fowler
William R. Meeks, Jr.
DIRECT
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279
CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
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234
249 274 276
283
William R. Meeks, Jr. (Resumed)
Floyd W. Parsons (Recalled)
Floyd W. Parsons (Further)
AFTERNOON SESSION - 298
298 303
305 337
341
303
338
342
Floyd W. Parsons
(Adverse Witness) 347
Dr. Keith Goldhammer 348
EXHIBITS
For Identification In Evident
Defendants:
Exhibit No. 19 282 282
Plaintiffs:
Exhibit No. 1 353 353
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199
THE COURT: There was some short reference in the
record yesterday that leads me to feel fairly sure there is a
difference in the interpretation of the law by me and Mr.
Walker.
I think it would be helpful for the record, and
particularly for the Court of Appeals, for me to put in the
record as concise and clear a manner as I can what I conceive
the law to be. This will allow counsel for both sides to
present the issues squarely in the Court of Appeals.
In Gould, as well as the other two cases, the
Supreme Court of the United States said that the board must be
required to formulate a new plan, and in light of other courses
which appear open to the board, such as zoning, fashion steps
which promise realistically to convert promptly to a system
without a white school and a Negro school, but just schools.
As I see it, the law, as interpreted by the Supreme
Court, requires that the dual biracial school system in Little
Rock be abolished and a unitary system established. This affec
both the assignment of pupils and the faculty.
There may be several constitutional ways in which
this may be accomplished: geographic attendance zones, pairing
of schools, feeder systems into junior high and high schools, o
combinations of these methods, and there may be other methods
which haven't occurred to me.
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200
One or more of these methods may produce more
desegregation than other methods; but, as I see the problem
from the legal standpoint, if there are several constitutional
approaches to achieving a unitary school system, quote, not
colored schools, not white schools, but just plain schools,
close quote, the school board is free to use its own judgment
ns to which of those methods it shall adopt, and without being
required to choose a constitutional method which would produce
more desegregation for that reason alone.
It is not for me as a judge, nor, of course, for
plaintiffs' counsel to dictate to the board which of several
permissible methods shall be adopted. Within those bounds of
permissibility, the choice is the board's.
I make this statement because it appears that the
theory of plaintiffs' counsel is otherwise, and I want to make
this statement in the record as concisely, as meaningfully as
I can, no that the Court of Appeals may have the opportunity tc
pass on this particular issue. If I am wrong in my statement
as to the board's duties, the Court of Appeals can tell mo no.
I make that this morning because I want Lt in the
record, os I said, in a concise fashion; and it can be easily
located again because It is in the beginning of the second day
sens ion.
Now, leaving that, wc did not progress an much as i
had hoped for yesterday, r want to finish this case today, m u
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Woods 201
I think actually, as far as the facts are concerned, the record
is about as complete as it is going to be, although certain
points may be amplified from other witnesses. But for all
practical purposes, I think the factual situation is nearly
complete.
I do not intend to permit counsel to cross examine
at the length that we had yesterday, and my attitude toward
stopping it is going to be apparent. Mr. Walker, I am not
unsympathetic with your position, but the judges of the
Court of Appeals are very able and intelligent men. I don't
consider myself exactly a dullard, and after you tell me
something two or three times, I think I have gotten the message
Now, with that admonition, I think we can proceed.
MR. FRIDAY: Call Mr. Woods.
Thereupon,
DANIEL H. WOODS
having been called as a witness on behalf of the defendants,
and having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q State your name, please.
A Daniel H. Woods.
Q What is your business, or occupation?
A I'm Industrial Relations Manager, U. S. Time
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Woods 202
Corporation, here in Little Rock.
Q Just to expedite, you are a graduate of law school,
are you not, Mr. Woods?
A Yes, sir, a graduate of the University.
Q But you are not a practicing lawyer.
A No, sir, I have never practiced law.
THE COURT: Lead hira through all the preliminary
questions .
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q What's your connection with the Little Rock School
District?
A I'm a member of the Little Rock Board of Education.
Q You have before you a copy of a resolution that was
introduced in evidence as Defendant's Exhibit No. 17. Do you
see it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you subscribe to the position of the board taken
in that resolution?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right. Now, one point I want to clarify: do
you have any position with the board with reference to the
negotiations with the teacher organization?
A Yes, sir, I am chairman of the subcommittee, or a
committee I guess I should say, of the school board to conduct
negotiations with the Classroom Teachers Association.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Woods 203
Q The only point on this, Your Honor, is because it
came up in Dr. Barron's testimony. Dr. Barron testified there
had oeen a previous agreement pertaining to the precise point
in issue, if it is in issue, the ninety days.
Will you state whether or not there had been a
previous agreement, and then, concisely, the present status of
negotiations concerning that in order to clarify Dr. Barron's
testimony.
A All right, sir.
The ninety-day provision is in the current negotia
tions, which has not been completed. This is a point that prio
to receipt of Judge Young's letter, we were in basic agreement
on, but we have not completed our entire negotiations agreement
nor has it gone to the board. This is approved only by a
committee of the board for submission to the board.
Q Would it be fair to say you had agreed on this point
/■
in principle, but cut off everything when we got to this
litigation?
A In principle we had agreed to the ninety days, but
tI had advised the Classroom Teachers Association, after receipt
of Judge Young's letter, that we were no longer free to talk
about this ninety-day clause, due to the litigation.
MR. FRIDAY: That is all I have.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
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CROSS EXAMIMAT10N-Woods 204
Q Mr. Woods, is it your position that you have had
this negotiation agreement with the teachers for more than this
year?
THc, COURT: It's not his position anything. Just
ask him about the facts, Mr. Walker.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you have a negotiations agreement negotiated
prior to the current year?
A Yes, we have a negotiated agreement prior to this
year.
Q And it is this —
MR. FRIDAY: You still want to see a copy?
MR. WALKER: I want a copy before we go further,
Your Honor.
MR. FRIDAY: All right. Here you are, Mr. Walker.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Is this the agreement, Mr. Woods, that contains the
ninety-day provision?
A No, sir, the agreement containing the ninety-day
provision has not been culminated. It's still under negotiatir
Q So that you have never had a ninety-day agreement
with the teachers?
A No, sir. The confusion has arisen because the
contract we have with the teachers is in the teacher contract
and not in the professional negotiations agreement. By
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 205
reference in each of our teacher's contract, the policies --
the administrative policies of the board are incorporated by
reference in each individual contract so, therefore, the 120
days, roughly, is incorporated.
Q But there is no specific provision that has been
negotiated to the effect that all of the district's teachers
will be given 120 days notice, or ninety days notice, or any
particular notice —
A I would say —
Q -- of their school assignment prior to the beginning
of the school year?
A I would say that it is included in the negotiations
with the teachers, because it's in each of the teacher contrac
by reference.
Q Are you sure of that?
MR. WALKER: Do you have a copy of that contract,
Mr.Friday?
THE WITNESS: You will see under "Board Policies"
in the teacher contracts, current addition of administrative
policies of the Little Rock School District, which is included
in the teacher contract; and that is in each contract that each
teacher has. So, this incorporates the board policy that was
discussed yesterday by Mr. Parsons.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, in view of the fact that
the policy handbook will be presented later into evidence by me
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 206
I would like to defer introducing this as an exhibit.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WALKER: In order to dispense with this witness,
since I had planned to call him as one of mine, Your Honor, I
would like to introduce his deposition --
THE COURT: No, we are not going to introduce his
deposition; he is here.
MR. WALKER: Well, Your Honor, I have a number of
questions I would like to ask him.
THE COURT: You may try.
MR. WALKER: This is for the purpose of expediting,
rather than --
THE COURT: It won't expedite, because I don't want
to take the time to read-that deposition, and I know the Court
of Appeals is not going to read it.
MR. WALKER: Need I go back over the board's policy.
Your Honor, regarding desegregation?
THE COURT: No, sir.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q What area do you live in, Mr. Woods?
A I live in Leawood.
Q What high school attendance area is that?
A That is in the Hall attendance area.
THE COURT: Haven't we already established the a r e a
of the board members?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 207
MR. WALKER: All except Mr. /oods, Your Honor. Mr.
Parsons *?as not certain about Mr. Woods.
THE COURT: He lives in the Hall High area.
Don't you, Mr. Woods?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you have children who attend school?
A Yes, sir.
Q What schools do they attend?
A Brady Elementary and Henderson Junior High.
Q I see. Have they ever attended a school in which
they were in a racial minority, or the teachers in that school
were a racial minority?
A Both of ray children have had minority teachers, or a
minority teacher; but if I understand your question, have they
been in a school in which they --
Q In which either they or their teachers were in the
minority.
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, there have been no schools
in which whites were in the minority in the Little Rock school
system which white pupils attend.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q In your deposition, Mr. Woods, you stated that you
viewed the Supreme Court decisions as requiring you to e
the dual system.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 208
A Yes, sir.
Q Is it your view that the attendance area plan that
you have prepared would eliminate the dual system?
A Mr. Walker, of course, this is — this attendance
area is under study right now. Yes, I believe this would be a
way to eliminate it. I'm not entirely sure that we haven't —
that we are in a dual school situation at the moment.
THE COURT: I'm sure you are not. We can leave that
and go on. Little Rock is not -- is in the dual school area.
MR. WALKER: Is?
THE COURT: I’m sorry, I was confused in a manner of
speaking.
Little Rock still has a dual school system, both as
to attendance and faculty, in view of the Supreme Court's
decision on freedom of choice.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q How do you -- what is the goal that you see insofar
as a unitary school system is concerned?
A Well, a unitary school system — I believe I told
you in the deposition, using about the same words the Judge
just used — is a system where you have schools without regard
to race.
Q Do you have a unitary school system if all of the
schools which historically have been Negro and those schools
have historically been white remain that way, with a handful
CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 209
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of Negro pupils in the white schools and a handful of white
pupils in the Negro schools?
A I would have to stand on my definition of schools,
regardless of what the historical basis of the school is. If
the Little Rock School District has schools, this is without
regard to race, this would not be a dual school system.
Q You are an attorney, too, Mr. foods?
A I'm not a practicing attorney.
Q Do you see the neighborhood school policy, as
reflecteo by your attendance area plan, as putting the Little
Rock School District in a situation where you have de facto
segregation because of the housing pattern?
A Would you repeat the question, please.
MR. WALKER: Would the reporter please read that bac
(The reporter read the question as
requested.)
THE WITNESS: Mr. Walker -- excuse me.
MR.FRIDAY: Your Honor, I don't want to get up and
down. Most of this is speculation and I think it would call f<
a speculative or an opinion statement. I don't mind the witne:
answering, but I think it is going beyond the issues.
THE COURT: I think the maps introduced yesterday
clearly show that under the zoning system — I won't say propo^
but suggested as a possibility indicate how many Negro and
how many colored would attend each school under that plan, and
k?
ed
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 210
this adds nothing to it.
Let 3 pass on to another subject.
MR. WALKER: I would also request that the witness
not ask his counsel to object for him, end this happened in
that instance.
THE WITNESS: If I could make a statement --
Mk. WALKER: I’m going on to my question.
TIL, WITNESS : I was not looking. My counsel was
getting ready to stand up, so I paused to see if he was going
to object. I was not waiting for him to object.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q How long have you been in the city, Mr. Woods?
A Fifteen and a half years.
Q You are aware of the living patterns of people in
this city, are you not?
A Basically.
Q What are those living patterns, Mr. Woods?
A Well, I think we have exhibits which will show the
living patterns of students already introduced. I think the
census tracts will show that we have Negro families and white
families in almost, if not all, census tracts in the city.
Q Are you aware of the fact that in Little Rock, as
we have alleged in the motion for further relief, that most of
the neighborhoods west of University Avenue in Little Rock are
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GROGS EXAMINATION - Woods 211
racially based, more or less? For instance, Pleasant Valley
is all white.
A When you say "racially based", I would agree that y:
would have your areas west of University, if that is where you
are drawing the line, would be mostly white, yes.
Q Would you also state whether the living patterns of
the people are that people tend to live with their own race?
A Well, that is a conclusion.
Q Did you state that in your deposition?
A I suppose this is true.
Q Have you and the board members -- previous boards
selected sites on a neighborhood school basis?
A Mr. Walker, I told you also in my deposition I have
never participated in the selection of a school site since I
have been on the board.
Q According to your knowledge about board policies?
A I would not want to speak on board policies prior
to when I was on the board, because I don't know.
Q Do you recall my asking you this question, Mr. Wood;;
(No response.)
"How do you change that pattern, then" -- referring
to neighborhoods being segregated -- "recognizing
that what you have in Little Rock is: one, the
policy of neighborhood schools; two, the policy of
locating schools on a neighborhood basis; and three,
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Hoods 212
the fact that you have some Negro schools and some
white schools based on the composition of either th
student body or historical identification?"
A Mr. Walker, I wouldn't attempt to try to solve the
living patterns of people, and I don't believe the school boar
could do this.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, just for the record, I'm
going to object to any testimony as to the personal beliefs or
feelings of the school board members about the relative merits
of a neighborhood school system in this hearing on the basis i
is not relevant or material to the issues before the Court.
THE COURT:
mind.
All right. I'll keep that objection in
MR. FRIDAY: All right.
MR. WALKER:
like to be heard.
Before the Court rules on that, I'd
THE COURT: I haven't ruled on it.
MR. WALKER:
BY MR. WALKER:
All right.
Q You are a member of the board. What is your posit
on the board?
A What is my position?
Q Do you have an office?
A No, sir.
Q You are aware of the fact that the school district
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 213
has purchased a large amount of acreage in Pleasant Valley,
aren't you?
this was also prior to my time on the school board.
Q Can you answer my question, yes or no?
A Yes.
Q Isn't it true the Pleasant Valley Corporation --
Development Corporation, or whatever it is -- uses that properl:
as an inducement to prospective purchasers to come into Pleasan
Valley?
A I do not know.
Q You have never seen the sign?
A I have seen the sign that "A school is to be built
here", but that's all I know.
Q Is that a school sign?
A No, sir. I don't know who put the sign up.
Q You have never investigated?
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, that's enough of that.
r?
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I'm trying to find out
whether the school district —
THE COURT: He said he did not know who put the sigr
out there. That's all there is to that.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q What would you say the racial composition of the
Pleasant Valley community is now, Mr. Woods?
A I don't know, but I can make a guess. I can guess
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods
that it's all white.
Q Are you familiar with the economic status of that
neighborhood?
A Well, as a private citizen living in the area, yes,
generally speaking.
Q Would you describe that as an area for upper-middle
income people?
A Probably so.
Q Now, is it likely, based on what you know about the
economic situation of Negroes in Little Pvock, that very many
Negro people, even without segregation in housing, will be abl<
to become residents in that community within the next year to
two years?
A Hr. Walker, I couldn't answer that question; I just
don't knew.
Q Isn't it true you answered that before, Mr. Woods?
A You asked me to guess before. I can guess now if
you want me to.
Q Your answer before was — if I may read the full
question: "You are familiar because of your involvement in
community affairs with the economic ability of Negro people
and white on a comparable basis. What, in your estimate, do yo
believe will ultimately be, within the next three or four year::
the racial composition of Pleasant Valley? What is your view?"
Answer: "I would say very little."
214
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CliO.iS LaAMUJaTIOI'I — Woods 215
Question: "Very few Negroes, if any?"
Ansxjer: "That's right."
Question: "So, if a school is built there, it
would be a white school, won't it, in terms of pupils who atto
there on a racial basis?"
Answer: "Probably so. I may hasten to add this,
though, that in building schools for children, you still have
to build them where the children are; and not taking issue wit!
you, or what, former boards may have done, you still have to
have schools available to teach children. For example, in the
McDermott, Brady, Terry area, as fast as we can build schools
they are overcrowded because we know people are moving into
new homes in these areas."
Is that a true statement?
A That is still my answer to those questions.
Q I asked you also whether the board perceived, to
your knowledge, or you as a member, any educational advantage
in integration.
A Education advantage?
Q Yes.
A To education. Are you speaking of education as
reading, writing, and arithmetic, or are you speaking of
education --
Q As a part of the total learning process of the
individual.
A Integration would possibly be of assistance
CROSS EXAMINATION * Woods
to pupils
216
in learning --
THE COURT: I don't think I'm interested in the
philisophical discussions of the witness of the advantages or
disadvantages of integration.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor. I would
respectfully note my objections.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, would you have an opinion as to whether or not
the Oregon Plan basically was submitted to the electorate to
determine whether or not they wanted to implement itV
A The Oregon Plan was not, as a plan, submitted to
the electorate.
Q Did the community accept the Oregon Plan in your
estimation?
A In my estimation, I would say not; but it was not a
direct vote on the plan itself.
Q I asked you in your deposition, "You say you must
have community acceptance. Is it your understanding that the
community did not accept the Oregon Plan?"
Answer: "I would assume so."
Question: "They refused to accept the Oregon Plan?"
Answer: "Rather strongly, I would say."
Is it true, Mr. Woods, that you made these statementsr
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CROSS EXAMINATION ’ ’oods 217
/l Yes. This is based on the election of members, not
a vote on the plan itself.
Q Did you gain your position on a platform in opposit
to the Oregon Plan?
A That was one point in my six-point platform,
opposition to the Oregon Plan.
Q Did you oppose a member of the board who favored t'ni
Oregon Plan?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who was that person?
A Mr. Coates.
Q And he was defeated?
A Yes, sir.
Q I asked you further: "So they expressed a strong
preference to the neighborhood schools?"
Your answer: "I would say so. I would say I
wouldn't be on the school board today if they had not accepted
it, because I wouldn't have been elected."
A These are still my conclusions. They were not direc
votes, but they are still my conclusions.
Q What have you done, specifically, before the Court's
letter to bring about a unitary school system?
A The first three or four months I was on the board,
I was basically trying to get my feet on the ground and learn
what was going on; and then when we got into January, the
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C.IOSS EXAMINATION roc
Immediately after the election in March, I partici
pated with Mr. Meeks in requesting the board to consider an
alteration to the freedom ol choice plan which would extend
freedom of choice into school that previously had been closed
due to overcrowding. On motion of Mr. Drummond, the suggestion
to put it on the agenda for discussion was tabled until after
the Supreme Count ruled on freedom of choice.
I've also discussed frequently with Mr. Parsons and
others our compensatory education program, especially as it
relates to our underprivileged areas and underprivileged
children.
I've also in several discussions, with Mr. Parsons
principally, discussed the teaching component of Park View
School,insisting that we have a meaningful integration in our
staff at this school. I did not propose any figures on him
on percentage numbers, but told him that we should have a
meaningful number in this school.
Q ' What specific action, in addition to these, have you
done to bring about a unitary school system, other,than conver
sation?
A Mr. Walker, we were operating under a Court-approvec
plan up until the Supreme Court acted, and since this time we
have appointed a committee to investigate this situation. I m
not a member of the committee.
/ 18
community was involved with a school election involving millage
CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 21f-
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1 Q So is it your answer that you haven't done anything*
A Individually, since the Supreme Court decision,
nothing, other than the items I've mentioned.
Q ^ave 7ou taken any steps to get community acceptance
of any changes you may have been contemplating, or been required]
to bring about to comply with the Supreme Court's decision?
A \es, I talked with a number of people in the
community regarding acceptance of the proposition that we aske<
to be put on the agenda that was postponed.
Q Which proposition was that?
A he proposition to open closed schools under the
freedom of choice.
Q How many schools were closed under freedom of choice
A Four last year. I think there will be only two thi.<
coming year.
Q What schools were they last year?
A They were Hall High School, Brady, Terry, and Ish,
I believe it was.
Q Hall, Terry, Brady and Ish?
A Right.
Q And you were going to -- what was your plan?
A Basically, it was a proposal, not a plan, to close
the attendance zones in such a way that there would be enough
seats left open in each school for minority students to attend
to exercise a choice to attend these schools.
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220
Q In each one of those schools?
In each one that is closed. Of course, the ones
that are not closed have the choice anyway.
Q Did the board play any part in determining what th?
attendance boundaries would be for each of the closed schools?
A The board did. I didn't; I wasn't on the board whe
they were set.
Q What about this year, the fact you have two schools
that are overcrowded. What are those two schools?
A Those schools are Hall and Park View.
Q Hall and Park View.
What was your plan with regard to Park View at the
time you declared it to be overcrowded?
A I don't know what you mean by "plan". You mean —
Q What grades did you plan to include within Park
View?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods
A Park View is opening as a eighth, ninth and tenth
grade school; next year to move to a nine, ten and eleven, and
the following year to a full high school, ten, eleven and tweb
Q So Park View would have been overcrowded this year.
A It is overcrowded, based on the freedom of choice
forms.
Q I see. Hers?, then, did you happen to arrive at the
boundaries for Park View that you have here?
A These boundaries were proposed after study by the
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Needs
superintendent and his staff. Basically, the main change in
the Hall attendance zone -- and, incidentally, this is not it
as you see it here. -this is not the attendance zone that we
set on nail. This is the one proposed under the new plan.
THE COUR.1 : I don't want to hear any more about the
attendance zone at Park View.
liR. WALLER: Your Honor, I would like to state our
position, just for the record, that the boundaries for Park
View were determined by the school district in such a way as
to minimize the number of Negro pupils that you would have
attending Park View, rather than to maximize the degree of
integration.
THE COURT: You may make that argument, of course.
MR. WALKER: I would like to proffer proof on that.
TIIE COURT: You may do it.
MR. WALKER: In view of the time limitation the
Court has imposed, I would like to proffer that proof just
between the Court and counsel after we have adjourned.
THE COURT: All right. We’ll take that up.
MR. WALKER: Does the Court's ruling also apply to
inquiries that I may make as to how the zone lines were drawn
around Hall High School?
THE COURT: This man, obviously, wasn't on the boarc
You are talking about --
MR. WALKER: Overcrowding under the freedom of choic
2? I
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 222
plan.
THE COURT: This man wasn't on the board when those
were drawn. He doesn't know anything about it.
MR. WALKER: Well, Your Honor, Hall was again
declared overcrowded this year.
THE COURT: Do you know anything about the attendant
boundaries of Hall?
THE WITNESS: We changed them slightly this year.
I can answer that.
THE COURT: You can ask him about that.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you have a map which reflects the attendance
zones of Hall High under your freedom of choice plan?
A I don't have it with me.
THE COURT: How much of a change was made, Mr. Wood*
THE WITNESS : I can explain what the change was ver)
simply.
MR. WALKER: Let me bring it out of you.
THE WITNESS: All right.
BY MR. WALKER: t
Q Once you determined that Hall was overcrowded, did
you draw your zone lines in such a way as to include any Negro
pupils within the Hall High area?
A To include Negro?
Q Yes.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 223
A Wo did not take race into consideration in drawing
the line.
Q I see.
A We took pupils into consideration. We did to this
extent take race into consideration, and that is we included
we were talking about going down the Eighth Street expressway
on the south side. We decided to leave it on Twelfth Street
where iL had been since this new residential area may include
soma Negro families, which would put some Negro families in Ha!,
but other than this one item, there was no racial consideration
given.
Q Do you consider —
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I'm dispensing with inquiry
into this subject because of the Court's prior admonition.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WALKER: Reserving, of course, the right to
proffer proof.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Notv, do you have an opinion as a school, board
member as to whether re-segregation of some of the schools,
which have been identified by Mr. Parsons as being over-integral
would present any significant educational difficulties or affecl
the implementation of a valid desegregation plan?
A Would you rephrase the question, please.
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Q
A
THE COURT: Do you have an opinion as to what, Mr.
Walker?
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you have an opinion as to the effect that re
segregation will have on the educational process in the centra
city schools?
A On the educational aspect?
Yes.
This is a difficult question.
THE COURT: The question is, do you have an opinion
THE WITNESS: Not at the moment, I don't. I don't
have any opinion.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q You have not given any thought to this in your boarc
meeting, or any discussion to this in the board meetings?
A On the problem of re-segregation?
Q Yes.
A Yes, it has been discussed to some degree.
Q What plans has the board developed to prevent
re-segregation? /
A This is a matter that is under study at the present
time, and I don't — as I say, I'm not a member of this commltt
Q Have you ever read the Blossom Plan?
A The plan?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 224
Q Y e s .
CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 225
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A No, sir, I have not.
Q Do you have any educational reasons, as a board
niemoeJ., t~o support -- for this attendance area plan -- the
drawing of the zone lines on a north-south basis, rather than on
a east-west basis? I'm talking about the high schools.
A You mean educationally?
Q Yes.
A I don't have an educational basis. The basis of our
attendance areas we have drawn have been to keep the students
in the nearest proximity of the schools as possible.
Q To your knowledge, what is the greatest distance
bhat a pupil who attends Hall High School -- under the over
crowded zoning pxan that you have -- would have to travel to
get to Hall High School?
A I don't know in miles; it would probably be from
Walton Heights, I would guess would be the fartherest. I don't:
know in miles.
Q How far is Walton Heights from Hall High School?
A I don't know.
Q Would Walton Heights be any further from Hall High
School --
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, if he doesn't know how far
it is from Walton Heights, how would he be able to say how far
It would be from somewhere else.
MR. WALKER: Well, Your Honor, he would know whether
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 226
Walton Heights is further from Hall High School than his house
is, for instance.
THE COURT: I'm sure it is, isn't it, Mr. Woods?
MR. WALKER: That’s not my question.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Walton Heights is north of Highway 10, is that true?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would Walton Heights be any further from Hall High
School than, say, the area right around the State Hospital to
the south of Eighth Street?
A No, sir, I would say that this is closer. However,
we have Walton Heights In the closest school to which they live
Q So that the pupils in Walton Heights are actually
a greater distance away from Hall High School than the pupils
who live around Monroe, Madison, Jefferson, Van Buren streets?
A I guess that is true. I don't see how that enters
into it, because we put Walton Heights in the closest high
school to where they live.
Q But in terms of proximity, you do have some Negro
pupils who live closer to Hall High School than the pupils who
live in Walton Heights or Pleasant Valley?
A I would say, yes, we do.
Q But your zoning plan excludes them because of the
way the zone lines are drawn; isn’t that true?
A That is true, but we don't see any other way to
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods
draw the lines.
227 I
Q Did you consider, Mr. Parsons, east-west zoning in
arriving at the geographic attendance area plan you have
presented here in Defendant's Exhibit 14?
A East-west?
Q Yes.
A This was drawn by the administrative staff on
recommendation of our committee after Judge Young's letter and
the instructions -- I wasn't on the committee -- the instructic
were to draw lines so that the students — to take into account
the nearest proximity to the schools.
Q Let me get it straight for the record.
You do know there were Negro pupils who live within
the Monroe, Madison, Jefferson, Adams --
A No, sir, I don't know that.
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, I think I have heard about
all I want to hear from this witness.
Do you have any questions, Mr. Friday?
MR. FRIDAY: No, sir.
THE COURT: You are excused.
MR. WALKER: Would the Court note our exceptions
to the limitation of the witness.
THE COURT: Yes, but all we are doing is duplicating
natters and wasting time. This man doesn't know much about
you are asking. These are things that Mr. Parsons can
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Woods 228
answer.
UK. WALKER: Your Honor, Mr. Parsons has also st
he didn't know where the students live.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WALKER: It seems like nobody knows where --
niL COURT: Mr. Woods, you may step down.
Call your next witness.
(Witness excused.)
T>
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Patterson
Thereupon,
229
T. E. PATTERSON
having been called as a witness by counsel for defendants, and
having been lirst duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q State your name, please.
A T. E. Patterson.
Q What is your business or profession, Mr. Patterson?
A I'm Executive Secretary of the Arkansas Teachers
Association.
Q What is the Arkansas Teachers Association?
A The Arkansas Teachers Association is a professional
association for Negro teachers in Arkansas.
THE COURT: Mr. Patterson, you're not speaking
loud enough to be heard.
THE WITNESS: The Arkansas Teachers Association is
the professional organization of Negro teachers in-Arkansas.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q What is your connection with the Little Rock School
District, Mr. Patterson?
A I'm a member of the Little Fvock School Board.
Q Mr. Patterson, I just want to cover one area with yc
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I hand you a copy of a resolution that has been introduced
in evidence as Defendant's Exhibit No. 17, and ask you to look
at it. You are aware that this is the resolution that was
presented to and adopted by the board on yesterday, August 15,
1968?
A Yes,
Q Yes, you are aware of that?
A Yes, I'm aware of it.
Q The record to date reflects, Mr. Patterson, that you
abstained in the vote on this resolution; is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q I think it is important that the Court have the full
picture,and I would ask you a few questions about the principle
involved.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Patterson 230
As a school board member, regardless of whether you
voted for this resolution or not, do you have a position you
would like to state to the Court as to whether or not the distr:.
needs until December 1 to continue its study of all available
alternatives before formulating a permanent plan for pupil and
teacher desegreation?
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, before he answers that, I
would respectfully like to object. Mr. Parsons has stated they
wanted until September 1, and counsel has given some persuasive
reasons why they want until December 1. I'm certain that that
Ls completely irrelevant to this Court in view of the fact thi3
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231DIRECT EXAMINATION - Patterson
district has had since 1954 to come up with a constutionally --
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, the primary issue at this
hearing is what, if anything, should be done by the board befor<
the September term. That is the issue before the Court.
MR. WALKER: But the question Mr. Friday asked does
not go to that issue, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I thought it did go to that issue.
liR. WALKER: His question was: nDo you need until
December 1"?
THE COURT: That certainly bears on this issue.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, will you respectfully note
my exception?
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr .patterson,would you please answer the question?
The resolution says they need until December 1, and I want the
Court to have the benefit of all the board members' views, and
want you to state it to the Court, your views.
A Including my reason for abstaining?
Q Oh, yes. You state your reasons. I didn't ask
that precise question, i'll ask that, why did you abstain?
A In the resolution, I suppose I would say that in
order to have harmony of the board, I agreed to compromise that.
zoning we would accept, and the December 1st date --
THE COURT: We can't hear you.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Patterson 232
THE WITNESS: The December 1st date for the permanent
plan, I would accept.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q You accepted both?
A This was a compromise because,frankly, I didn't feel
we would need until 1969 but I did this in order to get the
board in good faith, which they said they would,develop a plan
December 1st that would try to accomplish total desegregation.
Now, your original question was whether we need the
time?
Q To study alternatives.
A We do need the time, I think, to study alternatives
for a permanent total unification of the school system.
Q Excuse me, go ahead.
A Now, the time to put it together, because I feel
you have had enough time, I feel, to study, research and what
not. The difference between me and the other board members is
that the administration can put together a plan if the board
would let them alone.
Q By December 1?
A By tomorrow, if the board would stop picking at it
and tearing it apart.
Q Let's take September 1, Mr. Patterson. Do you have
a position as to whether or not the board ought to go to the
zoning proposal the staff has come up with on September 1, 1
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A Yes.
Q You think they could go to that on September I, 1968?
A Yes.
Q Do you think that would be a permanent plan?
A No.
Q You think it would be purely temporary?
A I think it would be the initial step. I think any
plan would be revised and improved as problems arise, but I
think the initial step is the best they could take.
Q You do not feel it was the permanent solution?
A No, I don’t think any plan would.
Q You think they would still need until December 1,
in order to come up for 1969 in time to study some alternative
to that?
A I think any plan,itself,would present problems that
should be studied and corrected.
Q All right. Now, Mr. Patterson, from the standpoint
and so the Court will have the complete picture, you are aware
that staff assignments have been made for next year?
A Yes.
Q Do you join in the statement or the principle embodied
in the statement in the resolution that it would be disruptive
if there were a substantial change in those staff assignments
as of September 1, 1968?
A Yes.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Patterson 233
CROSS EXAMINATION - Patterson 234
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Q Your answer --
A Yes, I understand that.
Q All right, sir.
MR. FRIDAY: That is all I have, Your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Patterson, would any faculty re-assignment plan
that would be imagined be disruptive to this degree?
A Yes.
Q What you are saying then, is that there are problems
that are going to accompany anything that the district does
with regard to implementing a plan of faculty desegregation thi3
year, or next?
A Yes. In other words, anytime we make a change, there
is disruption. Disruption in '68 would be no more than '69,
except I think it would maybe put a burden on the Negro teacherji
Q Do you see it as placing a burden on the white
teachers as well as the Negro teachers?
A No.
Q Would you explain that.
A Anytime you have total consolidation of the Negro
and white schools, the person that suffers is the Negro teacheri
Either she is fired or she is demoted or she is put in a place
out of her professional teaching field. I feel that the longer
delay of time will give the administration time to plan to
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235CROSS EXAMINATION - Patterson
satisfy the white teachers and then let the Negro teachers
suffer. It's been repeated time and time again.
Q Do you have experience as a board member that would
cause you to come to that conclusion?
A Yes, x*e all know, I think, that the initial assign
ment of Negro teachers, was against where the white teachers
were conferred, and if they objected they were allowed to stay
vjhere they were, and these kind of things.
Q Are you referring to what has happened insofar as
faculty desegregation is concerned in Little Rock?
A Yes.
Q Would you be more specific on that point for the
Court?
A I think we have been over this, too. In the initial
assignment of, let’s say, five teachers, there were two to ray
knowledge that didn t want to go; one remained and one quit.
Q These are Negro?
A Negro. There were white teachers who were asked, anc ,
of course, when they objected they were not forced to go. The
difference, I think, is in consultation that the Negro teacher
would go, but when the teachers got the notice it was picked cp
and they said ’’You're assigned to Metropolitan”, and this was
the first knowledge, and so the teachers rebelled -- well, not
rebelled, but crying and going on and one thing and another.
Q Did they come to you personally with the problem?
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CROSS EXAMINATION Patterson 236
A No, none requested from my association any help.
Q I don t mean from the Arkansas Teachers Association,
which you work with, but as a board member and a friend.
A No.
Q How did you gain knowledge of these problems?
A Through other teachers and personal contact after
having heard it, but it was not made as an appeal.
Q Now, do you know, Mr. Patterson, whether Negro teachi
have been assigned to predominantly white schools shortly
before school is to open in a given year?
A No, I don ' 1 know that.
Q Do you know whether the ninety day provision that
has been discussed here today and yesterday is a part of boar<
policy, as far as you know?
A It is not.
Q Has it ever been used in the past?
A No, it hasn't.
Q When was the first time,to your knowledge as a board
member,that that ninety day policy was used?
A It has never been used.
Q And is it true it's now,for the first time,a subject
of negotiation between the Classroom Teachers Association and
the Little Rock School Board for the first time?
A Yes.
Q How long has the Classroom Teachers Association been
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Patterson
an integrated organization, Mr. Peterson?
237
A Two years.
Q So, this is just the second year?
A Yes.
Q Who is the president of that organization to your
knowledge, or president elect?
A President elect is Mrs. Ruby McCoy.
Q Is she a Negro?
A She is a Negro.
Q Do you know whether, of your own knowledge, the boarc
authorized the Superintendent of Schools to ask the Classroom
Teachers Association or the Principals Roundtable to intervene
in this action to oppose faculty desegregation for this year?
MR. FRIDAY: That question assumes, Your Honor,
erroneously — there is nothing in the record and nothing to
support it that he has come to intervene for that purpose.
THE COURT: Read the question.
MR. WALKER: I asked whether he knew
THE COURT: You might ask whether or not it's a fact
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Did the board, by resolution or other formal action,
authorize the Superintendent of Schools to approach the
Classroom Teachers and the Principals Roundtable to oppose,
for the purpose of opposing, complete faculty desegregation in
1968-69?
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A Not to my knox^ledge.
Q Has this special committee to your knowledge, the
committee that is discussing or studying school desegregation
problems, to your knowledge authorized the superintendent to
approach either one of those organizations to ask for delay
m implementing the faculty desegregation requirements of the
Judge?
A Hot to my knowledge.
Q Do you know whether, in fact, meetings have been helc
with the classroom teachers by the administrative staff of the
district on this subject?
A Yes.
Q Do you know for a fact,whether the Superintendent of
Schools has appeared at those meetings?
A Yes.
Q Do you know for a fact, whether the Superintendent o::
Schools took the position that if the classroom teachers were
to intervene in the action, the Court would be more generous
probably in reacting to the board’s plea for delay? Do you
know? t
A Well, no, he didn't take that position, per se.
Q Would you state, then, the position that was taken
by the superintendent?
A The superintendent didn't take a position, as I r e c n ..
I wasn't in but one meeting. He felt that the teachers should
CROSS EXAMINATION - Patterson
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Patterson 239
let their positions be known. He did not say what position
at the meeting I attended.
Q Did he state the position that was going to be taken
by the board?
A No, because we hadn’t taken a position.
Q But did he state a position that he was going to
recommend the board take on the issue of delaying faculty
desegregation?
A Yes, he did say the disruptive aspect of September,
of course, would violate and all this business, but that was
all. The letter, I think, was what the original concept was.
There was no position taken against the Judge's letter.
Q But he did encourage them to let their position be
known to the Court?
A No, he stayed away from encouraging anything. He
said he had no position to take, as I understand it. He said
"You make your own decisions". These are the facts; he gave
the report, the letter, what it meant, and the hardships it
would cause. He said,"Now you have the facts; you make your
decision".
Q Nho initiated the meeting?
A I guess the administration.
Q The administration, you mean the superintendent?
A Yes.
Q Now, had the board ever before sought the assistance
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or intervention or cooperation or counsel of the Classroom
Teachers Association?
THE COURT: I think I have heard enough on that.
tiR. WALKER: Would you note our exceptions, Your
Honor?
THE COURT: He has made himself very clear as to
what occurred.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I was talking about prior
to this tins*.
THE COURT: That mates no difference. He said what
happened this time.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I would want the Court to
understand that at no time in the past has the district sought:
tne cooperation or intervention of the Classroom Teachers
Association.
THE COURT: The witness has not testified at this
time he sought the cooperation or the intervention of the
teachers. He said they were to use their own judgment.
MR. WALKER: May I ask him one more question about
that point, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you know whether Mr. Parsons made a statement to
the effect that the teachers' position should be made known
GRG->S EXAMINATION — Patterson
to the Court?
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241
A Yes.
HR. WALKER: Ko more questions on this point, Your
Honor, but I would like to use Mr. Patterson in the developme
of our case.
THE COURT: You may.
MR. FRIDAY: Thank you, Mr. Patterson.
THE COURT: You are excused.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Fowler
Whereupon,
242
WILLIAM H. FOWLER
having been called as a witness by counsel for the Defendant
and having been first duly sworn was examined and testified
as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q State your name, please, sir.
A Harry Fowler.
Q Mr. Fowler , what’s your position with the Little
Rock School District?
A Assistant superintendent for personnel.
Q Give briefly for the record your background in
matters pertaining to education and supervisory positions,
just briefly run through it. I want to get in the record the
background that you have had in these matters leading up to
your present position as assistant superintendent for personnel
A I have been a class room teacher at both the
secondary and elementary level. Junior High School principal,
Senior High School principal and an Elementary principal.
Q Over what period of time does that cover, Mr.
Fowler:
A Eighteen years.
Q Eighteen years. Now, as assistant superintendent
in charge of personnel, has it been your direct responsibility
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DIRECT EXAMINATION ’t-.'ler 243
to carry out the staff desegregation program of the Little
Rock School District?
A Yes, it has.
Q What is your understanding of the charge to you --
by that I mean your duty -- in this regard.
A The charge to me, the original charge was to
at least double staff desegregation over the 1966-67 school
year.
Q I'm sorry. So the record will be clear. When
did you become assistant superintendent in charge of personnel?
A February, 1967 — I'm sorry, March 1, 1967.
Q You have been there approximately --
A — approximately a year and a half.
Q Approximately a year and a half. Who was in
the office before you, Mr. Fowler?
A Dr. Harvey Walthall.
Q All right. Go ahead, sir. The first thing
they told you was to double the number?
A Yes, at least double.
Q The statistics are in —
A We are talking about faculty?
Q Faculty, yes, sir, faculty desegregation. The
tatistics are in but in order to bring continuity to your
estimony, how many did you have at the time you got this
so we can see what you have accomplished?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Fowler 244
A Thirty-five or thirty-six, I believe. Thirty-six,
I believe.
Q Was this full-time?
A Full-time, yes.
Q All right. Then you were able to bring that
number up to what?
A Eighty-five.
Q Full-time?
A Full-time, yes, sir.
Q All right. For next year you have been able to
bring that number up to what total?
A I expect it to be 113.
Q One hundred and thirteen?
A Yes.
Q Just briefly, and I don't want you to belabor it,
but I want you to describe so the Court will have the full
picture, how do you go about accomplishing this?
A By talking. Primarily, talking. Talking to --
first of all you must have positions open and a part of the
charge was to fill these
THE COURT: Will you speak a little louder, please
THE WITNESS: A part of the charge was to
accomplish this doubling, if I may use that term, by normal
attrition and the volunteer method of both white and Negro
teachers.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION Fowler 245
Q As distinguished from arbitrary assignment, I
believe previous testimony has shown.
A Yes.
Q Go ahead, sir.
A Well, first of all Ihave to determine where I have
positions open that I could place persons. Secondly, I had to
determine who was available to be placed in these positions.
Then I set about interviewing people to fill the positions
once they were determined.
Q Do you interview every applicant to the Little
Rock school system for a teaching or staff position?
A Every applicant, yes.
Q Every one is interviewed?
A Yes.
Q All right. Has it been a difficult task, Mr.
Fowler?
A Most difficult.
Q Why has it been difficult?
A I find it extremely difficult to get white
teachers to accept positions at predominantly Negro schools.
Q Do you care to elaborate on this, if you know?
If you do not know, say so. Why are they more reluctant to go?
I am sorry, I was not clear.
A I have an opinion, but I don't really know why.
I know only that I know they refused,many people refused to do
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Fowler 246
this.
Q Do you have some of their reasons?
A Particularly those young people coming out of
school,that I have no experience with Negro pupils before and
I would not like to go into the situation my first experience.
I have had other people tell me that their families objected
although they were willing to go. There are many and varied
reasons that this has happened.
Q All right. I think Mr. Parsons was questioned
on the fact, if you will agree that it is a fact, there has
been a higher turnover among the white teachers that have
been assigned to the Negro schools. You heard Mr. Parsons'
testimony. Do you share his views in this regard?
A Yes.
Q All right. Mr. Parsons testified that there were
certain teachers or staff people In addition to the numbers
that the exhibits reflect. Have you examined so you could
put in specifics on how many additional people are involved
at the staff level in desegregation positions?
A At the staff level, I can give you totals.
Q Well, at the faculty level?
A That includes persons other than staff.
Q All right.
A If you say staff, I am thinking of administrative
staff or total staff?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Fowler 247
Q No, you just include it from top to bottom. I
just want to get in so the record will reflect Mr. Parsons
testimony was speculative, and I wanted you to get exact
figures.
A There are exactly 74 positions, 51 white persons
and 23 Negroes in these 74 positions.
Q These 74 are in addition to the figures reflected
by the exhibits that have been put in on staff and faculty
desegregation?
A Yes.
Q Now, without naming all 74 of them please give the
Court the categories of the type people you are talking about.
A May I start with myself?
Q Yes.
A I am included in the 74. There are two other
persons at the administrative level, there are three princi
pals, one white — one Negro, and two whites included in this
group. Psychological examiners, home teachers, remedial
reading teachers, music teachers, librarians, elementary
librarians, librarian aides, para-professionals, or those
commonly called teacher aides.
Q Now, is it fair to characterize, and if it is not
you say so, that these 74 people occupy assignments or
perform duties where their race is in the minority. Is this
correct?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Fowler 248
A Yes -- may I elaborate?
Q Yes, please do elaborate.
A The majority of the persons who I have just
named and the positions that I have just named work in more
than one school, particularly those people that go into a
school. Some of the schools are all-white. Some are all-
Negro and some are integrated.
Q Now, Mr. Fowler, would you state whether or not
during the period that you have been there that you have
gotten all of the desegregation at these levels that you can
get under the procedures that you have been following which
leaves out arbitrary reassignments?
A I would say very definitely, yes.
Q Very definitely yes.
A Yes.
Q You have worked at it?
A For two years without vacation. I tiink that is
the best answer I can give, or the year and a half that I
have been there without vacation.
Q Do you have a position — if you do not, say so
that you would care to state to the Court whether from an
educational standpoint, it is desirable to have a teacher in
a forced or arbitrary assigned position?
A From an educational standpoint, I feel it is not
a desirable position to have a teacher in such a position
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 249
unhappy. I have a feeling that a teacher ought to be happy.
This is just niy belief and it has always been my belief,as a
school principal I thought that a teacher ought to be happy.
MR. FRIDAY: That is all I have.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Have you conducted a survey, Mr. Fowler,to
determine whether or not white teachers would be willing to
teach in Negro schools and vice versa?
A No, I have not.
Q Did your predecessor, Mr. J. Harvey Walthall,
conduct such a survey to your knowledge?
A Yes.
Q Do you have the results of that survey?
A I have seen the results of it, yes.
Q Would you state what the percentage of white
teachers in the whole system was who indicated a willingness
to teach in predominantly Negro schools?
A I don’t recall the exact percentage, Mr. Walker,
but very low.
Q What about the number who would be willing to
teach in a predominantly school, although not an all-Negro
school, was that covered by the survey?
A Still very low.
Q What about one attended by a mixed population
CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 250
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1 racially?
A I believe, Mr. Walker, the survey —
THE COURT: A little louder, please.
THE WITNESS: The survey only asked one question
along these lines and the majority of answers were, no, they
would not be willing to work in such situations.
THE COURT: Mr. Fowler, I hate to keep saying it,
but you must speak louder.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, I will do so.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q The Oregon Report has been introduced in evidence,
your Honor, and I would like to call your attention to table
11, Mr. Fowler.
MR. WALKER: Judge, that would be on page 55
of the Oregon Report, marked as Defendant's Exhibit 7.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q I show you a copy of that, Mr. Fowler, and ask
if you are familiar with this table 11 which is identified as
staff reactions to student grouping alternatives in Little
tRock.
A I have read it in this report, Mr. Walker.
Q I see. Would you state what that report shows,
please?
A This report shows responses to certain questions
that were asked white and Negro teachers apparently. You want
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 251
me to read the whole thing?
Q Have you studied this before?
A Yes, I have read it and studied it.
Q Would you summarize what that table means insofar
as the faculty desegregation is concerned?
A Mr. Walker, I get the feeling that this report
in summary says that white teachers who are asked certain
questions, or 77 of the number asked would work in situations
where there were both white and Negro children, and two of the
total number asked of the white teachers would work where
there were all-Negro children. There were 30 Negro teachers
who responded that they would work in situations where there
were both white and Negro children and one response of a
Negro teacher who would work with all-Negro children.
Q Well, what I am driving at, Mr. Fowler, do you
have an opinion as to whether your task of making faculty
assignments would be made easier if your student body were,
say of a ratio of approximately 70 percent white and 30 percent
^egro?
A Yes, I have an opinion.
Q What would be your opinion?
A It would certainly be much easier. My task
7ould be much easier if the composition of students in each
school were that percentage.
Q I see. Would your task be much easier than it is
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 252
now if the ratio in some schools were say, 50 to 50?
A Yes.
Q So, then, what ycu are saying is that the larger
the number of Negro pupils in a particular school, the greater
problems you have in obtaining complete faculty desegregation
according to government standard in those schools?
A Yes.
Q What wasyour teacher turnover at the end of this
last year, Mr. Fowler?
A We are approaching ten percent at the present
time, Mr. Walker.
Q At the present time, but at the time of your
deposition, how many positions had been vacated, Mr. Fowler,
for this year?
A I don't recall the exact number. They were
coming in daily.
THE COURT: Well, as of now, if you know?
THE WITNESS: As of now, the last time I checked,
107, I believe.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q All right. I asked you on your deposition, of
the 50 spaces — I had gotten this from you — of the 50
spaces that have been vacated this year, teaching spaces,
how many of those were vacated by Negroes, and how many were
vacated by whites, roughly?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 253
Your answer was two Negroes. Is that true?
A Yes.
Q you do recall having made a statement to the
efxect that this was a year when you had fewer resignations
than ordinarily?
A At the time of the deposition we did have fewer
resignations.
Q And that was July 17, 1968?
A Yee.
Q What number of resignations then have you had
since July 17, 1968?
A Oh, Mr. Walker, I would say 30 to 40.
Q Thirty to forty?
A Yes.
Q What reasons have been assigned by the teachers
for resigning?
A You mean all teachers?
Q Yes, what, — generally what is the single reason
given most frequently?
A Leaving the city.
Q I see. Are very many of the reasons associated
with what may have been construed to be the Judges' require
ments in his letter?
A Oh, no.
Q I see.
I don't think so.
Now, when you call a teacher in, Mr.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 254
Fowler, a white teacher, to tell him that you want him to be
assigned to a Negro school, would you tell us how you go
about that?
A Mr. Walker, I have not called a white teacher
in.
Q You have not?
A You say called in, I am assuming you mean call
them into my office. I have not done this.
Q What steps have you taken to incourage white
teachers to go into formerly Negro schools?
A Mr. Walker, I have talked with a number of teach
as I have traveled over the school district and at times
I have been in various schools, I have talked with them about
it.
Q But you haven't called any in for an interview?
A I seldom need to.
Q Do you know whether any other member of the
administrative staff has interviewed people specifically
for the purpose of determining whether or not they would be
willing to be assigned to a Negro school?
A I don't know.
Q You don't know. Would you ordinarily know
about the actions —
THE COURT: Let's just skip that, whether he
would ordinarily know.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 255
MR. WALKER: Note my exceptions.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now,what is your specific responsibility in the
district, Mr. Fowler?
A My specific responsibility is the recruitment,
the employment and placement of teachers.
Q I see. How have you -- just that. You recruit,
employ and place them.
A Yes.
Q Do you have the authority to assign a person
to a school against that person’s will?
A Yes, I have that authority.
Q Has that authority been given you by board
delegation or by direction from the superintendent?
A Mr. Walker, that is part of the policy of the
district as relates to my duties.
Q I understand. Have you exercised that policy
then to assign white teachers — to assign now -- white
teachers to Negro schools who have been teaching within the
system before? t
A No, I have not.
Q Have you exercised that authority to assign
liegro teachers who have been teaching in the system to white
schools?
A No, I have not.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 256
Q You have not. Do you know whether your
predecessor did so?
A No, I do not know.
THE COURT: Let's take a recess until five minutes
after eleven.
( A short recess was taken.)
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler
BY MR. WALKER:
257
Q Mr. Fowler, do you have -- did you have, on July 17th
an opinion,based on your year and a half as assistant superin*'
tendent in charge of personnel,as to whether the task of the
faculty desegregation could have been achieved by this
district had a more precise policy been formulated to direct
the administrative staff, or to guide the administrative staff
insofar as movement toward the ultimate goal is concerned ?
A Yes, I have an opinion.
Q What was your opinion?
A My opinion, then and now, is that if the board had
set a more positive policy then, it would have been easier to
achieve more staff integration than we presently have.
Q What are the policies of the board that you now
operate under? That is, have there been any written policies
arrived at by the board, which appear in the board minutes,
which have been given to you to implement in the last year
and a half, other than the directive to double the amount of
faculty integration for the 1967-68 school year?
A To my knowledge, no policies.
t
Q Did you have authority as of July 17th to assign
people without giving them a choice as to the school that they
would be assigned to? I call your attention to page seventeen
of your deposition.
A My answer then, Mr. Walker, was, no, we do not
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operate under such procedures.
Q Would you like to expand on that?
A Would you ask the question again; I have lost it.
Q My question was: Did you have authority to just
assign people without giving them a choice to the school that
they would be assigned to; and yoir answer was that you did not
operate under that particular procedure. I wanted to know if
you want to elaborate on that.
A I have answered that we do not operate under that
procedure, Mr. Walker, but I'll elaborate to this extent, that
when we talked to persons about a specific position, we are
talking to them about a position at a school. We do not
employ persons and then assign them. We employ them as we
have vacancies to occur.
Q So that you attempted to place — fill the fifty odd
vacancies through July with persons new to the system; is that
what you are saying?
A Yes.
Q You did not use this as an opportunity to transfer,
say, Negro teachers who had indicated a willingness to go to
white schools into those vacancies, and then employ white
teachers, new to the system, to fill the vacancies that those
Negro teachers left behind?
A Mr. Walker, we did transfer one or two persons in
order to create positions at the Negro schools in order to
CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 258
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 259
further our staff desegregation; only one or two.
Q So that the Judge will know just what your procedure
is for making assignments, would you explain to him just how
you go about filling a vacancy within a school. Say, for
instance, a vacancy occurs at Hall High School; what is the
procedure the district follows in filling that vacancy basics'.
A Of course, all resignations come to my office, and
then I immediately know -- then I know where we have a vacancy
I, then, Xfill pull applications for that position. I'll confc
with the principal. We will interview, or he will interview,
those persons that I have given him for this position.
Q So, then, the principal plays a part in determining
which particular teacher will be assigned to his school?
A Yes.
Q I see. Now, is that true of all the schools? I usee
Hall as an example.
A It's true of all the schools, yes.
Q Now, the principal is the person who makes the
decision in the first instance as to whether or not a particul
teacher will be assigned to his school?
A No.
Q All right. Who makes the decision in the first
instance? I'm not talking about finally; in the first instanc:
A The principal will study the application I have giver
him, he will interview those people,and he will make the
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler
recommendat ion.
260
Q Did you almost always accept the principal's
recommendations?
A Yes. I accepted it because the applications I have
given him to study and to interview are qualified people.
Q Now, how do you account for the fact that at Hall
High School as of July 17, 1968, you had only one Negro facult
member at Hall?
A How do I account for it?
Q Yes.
A Out of 61 teachers — well, I came into this position
in the spring of '67, and we only had, I believe, three --
it may be one or two more, but I seem to have the number three:
in my mind. We only had several -- let me put it that way,
we only had several vacant positions at Hall High School.
These were in certain areas. At the time the positions were
open, we didn't have available, if you are asking why we didn1
put Negroes in, we didn't have the Negro applicants available
to place there.
Q Didn't you have some Negro teachers at Horace Mann
who were teaching substantially the same subjects that those
teachers who left or resigned were teaching?
A Yes, we did.
Q Why did you not transfer the teachers from Horace
Mann to Hall?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 261
A It o my feeling, and I feel it very strongly, that
we cannot continue to transfer the better or our good Negro
teachers - our Negro children in the predominant Negro schoi
need good teachers and experienced teachers, and I feel strong
that we cannot continue to transfer Negro teachers from the
predominant Negro schools and fill these positions with
relatively inexperienced teachers.
Q Do you think that the policy of filling vacancies
and encouraging voluntary transfers can ever achieve faculty
desegregation in the goal that has been set out?
A Having worked with it a year and a half, Mr. Walker,
I say we can never achieve it as we are presently operating.
Q Have you advised the board of this?
A I have talked to the superintendent about it.
Q Why do you oppose taking experienced, competent Negrc
teachers from Negro schools and placing them in white schools,
and replacing those teachers with new beginning teachers?
A Mr. Walker, it’s an educationally sound principle
that a staff, a given staff, ought to be composed of experier.c
in terms of years,as well as inexperienced people.
THE COURT: Louder, Mr. Fowler.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Are you saying that what you do when you remove the
experienced, able Negro teacher from the Negro school and
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 262
replace her with a relatively inexperienced white teacher,
that you weaken the program of the school from which that
person was taken ordinarily?
A Mr. Walker, I ’m not saying that I have done that.
Q I understand that.
A I ’m saying this is a possibility that this could be
the case, ye3 .
Q Isn’t it true that you have a high attrition rate
among the white teachers who have been assigned to Negro
schools?
A Yes.
Q And it's considerably lower among Negro teachers who
have been assigned to white schools?
A This is true, yes.
Q How would you account for that fact happening?
A Mr. Walker, the Negro teachers that we have in our
system are very stable, apparently. We have a large number
of white teachers assigned to predominantly Negro schools to
resign for many reasons.
IKE COURT: Louder, Mr. Fowler. You must talk where
we can hear you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you, Judge. It feels like I'm
screaming.
One of the big reasons, Mr. Walker, is that many of
these people have left the city.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 263
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Are there other reasons, Mr. Fowler?
A Yes, pregnancy has been another reason.
THE COURT: What was that?
THE WITNESS: Pregnancy.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: And the others, I really don’t know.
They don’t give reasons every time. They just resign.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q But the white teachers assigned to teach in the
formerly Negro schools are more likely, by far, to leave the
school system within two or three years,than the white teache
assigned to teach in formerly white schools; is that true?
I mean, in all-white schools.
A Mr. Walker, we have a very high resignation rate,
V
and it's approaching this year, again, to be very high. I
don’t really know whether I can answer your question or not.
Q I call your attention to page 35 of your deposition
and ask you how many Negro -- how many white teachers did you
have in Negro schools last year?
A Thirty-three.
Q And how many of those whites will not be back next
year?
A Ten, I think, at that time.
Q How many now?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 264
A
Q
A
Q
system ?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
schools.
will not
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Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
E le v e n , I b e l ie v e . I had one more r e s ig n a tio n .
S o , more than 33 percent o f them w i l l not be back?
Y e s .
Now, how many w hite teach ers d id you have in the
Approxim ately — la s t year?
Y e s .
Approxim ately 7 5 0 .
Does th a t include the 32 th a t were in Negro sch o o ls?
Y e s .
So th a t would mean 718 teach in g in form erly a l l -w h it e
IIow many o f that number, not in clu d in g th ese te n ,
be re tu rn in g th is year?
Approxim ately — approxim ately a hundred.
You mean to say that you have 132 people approximated.
You mean w ithout —
Yes.
Approxim ately 7 5 .
These are white teachers?
Y e s .
How many Negro teachers do you have lea v in g the
system ?
A T h ree . One by r e s ig n a tio n , and two by r e tir e m e n t.
Q L e t me understand t h i s , M r. Fow ler. At the time
o f the d e p o s itio n you had approxim ately f i f t y r e s ig n a t io n s .
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 265
Are you saying now that since that time you have had about
35 more?
A We have had, I would think, more than 35, Hr. Walker
Q Since July 17th?
A I think I did not say fifty. I don't recall having
told you fifty, exactly fifty.
Q About fifty.
A I don t know whether I said about fifty; I recall
saying about fi-7© percent, which would be approximately fifty
THE COURT: I'm sure the figure changes as the
summer goes on.
THE WITHESS: Very definitely.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q So, you did say about five percent, which would have
been roughly fifty.
A Fifty or sixty; between fifty anc sixty, yes.
Q How, there is another thing I want to ask you about
and have read into the record.
You say for 1966-67, you had 32 white teachers in
Kegro schools?
A Thirty-three, I think.
Q Would this be an accurate statement made shortly
before the school year was to begin, there will be 23 white
teachers —
MR. FRIDAY: I think you ought to tell him who made
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the statement and what you are reading from before he can
give you any idea of the accuracy, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: The statement would be accurate on the
merits rather than who made it, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I don't know what you are talking about.
What is the question.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Would this be an accurate statement if made shortly
before the beginning of the 1966-67 school year? "With regard
to performance thereunder, meaning the faculty desegregation
plan, the facts are that in the 1966-67 school year there wild,
be no less than sixty Negro students in integrated situations
and no less than 52 teachers in integrated faculty situations
There will be 23 white teachers teaching in schools to be
attended only by Negro students, ten white teachers teaching
in a school to be attended by predominantly Negro students,
seventeen Negro teachers to be teaching in schools to be
attended predominantly by white students, and two Negro teach*
teaching in schools to be attended predominantly by Negro
students." t
THE COURT: He couldn't follow that question.
MR. WALKER: I'll show you the statement.
THE COURT: Are you asking him if that is true about
the Little Rock School District?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 266
MR. WALKER: Yes, sir.
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CROSS EXAMINATION 267
TIIE COURT: As of when?
MR. WALKER: As of the beginning of the 1966-67
school year.
TIIE WITNESS: I would assume this is accurate, Mr.
Walker.
TIiE COURT: Was he there at the beginning of the
1966- 67 —
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Were you there in the beginning of the 1966-67 school
year?
A In my present position?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q So, you don‘t know.
Now, you have stated that until 1967-68, at least
1967- 68, to your knowledge, all of the persons hired for
coaching positions within the district were hired on a racial
basis; is that true?
A I assume you mean before?
Q Up until 1967-68.
A Yes.
Q During that time have you assigned, up until July 17,
any Negroes to white senior high schools, senior high schools
fully operating, as coaches?
A Fully operating senior high schools, no.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - l’owler 268
Q Have you assigned any white coaches from within the
system to any Negro coaching stations
A No.
Q Isn't it true that this has been the effect, or the
practice, through the end of the 1967-68 3chool year, in all
cases except one school -- two schools, and that's Parle View
and Horace Mann.
A Would you ask that question again?
Q Let me change the question. Isn't it true that this
year for the first time you have initiated some faculty deseg
regation -- I mean, some coaching desegregation at Park View
schoo 1?
A Yes.
Q And that the person that you have assigned to the
coaching faculty at Park View has the -- the Negro person has
the least rank among four coaches over there?
A I can't answer a question like that. I don't know
whether he has the least brains or not.
Q Least rank.
A I ’m sorry, I misunderstood you. He is assigned as
assistant coach, yes, if you term it that way, yes.
Q Isn't it true that when you opened Park View, all
of the major administrative posts in that particular position
T̂ ere filled with white personnel?
A Yes.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 269
Q And Isn t it true that all of the department heads
and the like in that school are scheduled to be white?
A No, it's not true.
Q Name one whom you plan to have who is a Negro.
A The department of music.
Q The department of music?
A Yes, vocal.
Q How many people will be in that department?
A Well, of course, as we open Park View, we don’t have
very many people in any department. For the coming year, we
have one.
Q How many Negroes do you have within Parle View who
have supervisory responsibility in some form or another,
or department head responsibility over a number of other
teachers within that school?
A None.
Q Are teachers paid on the basis of — in addition to
the salary schedule -- extra duties?
A Yes.
Q So that a teacher who is also a department head, or
t
has administrative positions like Vice Principal or Dean of
Men or Dean of Women, would be given extra pay for the extra
work?
A We have a salary schedule for Vice Principal and
those persons serving as department heads are paid a stipend,
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler
Q What is that amount?
270
A $105.00 a year.
Q Do you know of a single Negro teacher in a predominar
white school who is a department head exercising supervisory
control or some kind of authority over white teachers beneath
them?
A Do I know?
Q Yes.
A No, I don't know.
Q Do you know whether many of the teachers you have
assigned,or propose to assign, to formerly white schools have
been department heads in the schools from which they have beer
assigned -- had other special duties which were remunerative?
A None have been department heads. I don't recall
whether any have been in a situation where they did what we
call"extra duty'.'
Q What about Mr. Holmes, who I understand will be
assigned to Hall High School possibly this next year?
A I don't know, Mr. Walker. He was not a department
head.
t
Q You don't know whether he had extra duty at Horace
Mann High School?
A I don't know.
Q Has he returned his contract to you?
A Y e s .
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 271
Q For Hall High School?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether that contract will cause him to
earn less money at Hall High School then he earned at Horace
Mann?
A I do not know. May I —
Q Yes.
A As far as salary is concerned, he will not earn less
If he had extra duty at Horace Mann, I don't know.
Q Do you know of any Negro teachers in white schools
who have extra duty assignments?—
A Yes.
Q -- that are remunerative?
A Yes.
Q Which schools, and how many?
A Off-hand, I recall Pulaski Heights Junior High School
and It seems to me, Central.
Q What positions?
A Mr. Walker, I'd have to check the record.
Q You don't know?
t
A I only recall Pulaski Heights Junior High School, anc
this young man is the industrial arts teacher.
Q What extra duty does he have?
A I don't know. I don't see the actual assignments;
all I see is that he is on extra duty. We govern ourselves
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 272
accordingly as far as his contract and paying him is concernec
Q lie is the only one that you know of --
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, you are running this into
the ground. Let's pass on.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Isn't it true that this year, you assigned a white
person without experience who was a recent graduate of a
southwest conference college to be assistant coach at Horace
Mann?
A Yes.
THE COURT: Do you mean conference or college?
MR. WALKER: Southwest conference college.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q And at the time you did this there were Negro persons
with applications on file, whose paper qualifications were
superior to this particular person?
A Only one, Mr. Walker.
Q Only one?
A YesV
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Q Has that person had an application on file in the
school district for several years for a coaching position
in the Little Rock schools?
A I only taw it this year.
Q Did he advise you at any time that it has been on
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 273
file for several years?
A I have not talked to this young man in person.
Q You have not interviewed him?
A No.
Q I asked you on page 39 of your deposition, isn't it
true you had one set of standards for assigning coaches to
Negro schools, and another set of standards for assigning
coaches to white schools, meaning, of course, the same standai
of race?
A Yes.
Q That is true?
A Yes.
Q Now, these persons that you have identified in the
number 74, 51 white persons and 23 Negroes, you included
yourself and two administrative staff people?
A Yes.
Q Are those two administrative staff people Mrs. Caruth
and Mr. Hill?
A Yes.
Q Now, isn't it true that the other people that you
identified are not what you would call district employees, as
such, but that they work in federal programs?
A Some of them are district employed, Mr. Walker.
Q How many of these would be district employees,paid
only by district funds?
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REDIRECT EXAMINATION - Fowler 274
A Mr. Walker, I have total numbers included here, and
I don't really know. I would have to get the record.
Q But isn't it true that the bulk of these are paid
from Public Lax? 89.10 funds or federal programs?
A I would say the majority, yes.
Q Have you been given a directive since the last board
to do anything specific about faculty desegregation? When I
say "the last board", I mean the board which was constituted
between March, 1966, and March, 1967. The board that became
constituted in March, 1968, has it directed you to do anythin*;
specific by way of faculty desegregation, and given you the
tools to work with?
A You mean in terms of numbers?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q Have you felt,as Superintendent of Schools, that you
could proceed in this area without direction from the board?
A Yes.
MR. WALKER: No more questions.
MR. FRIDAY: I have about two questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q There were questions about whether you used racial
standards in employing coaches. You don't mean you have
employed coaches to maintain segregation do you, Mr. Fowler?
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REDIRECT EXAMINATION - Fowler 275
A No.
Q A3 a matter of fact, did you not offer the coach
position at Park View to a Negro, and he declined it?
A The coaching position or --
Q You tell me .
A We offered the head coaching position at Park View
to a Negro, and he declined it.
Q Then did you feel you picked the best applicant you
had available for the job?
A Yes.
Q Did you actually read the Clark decision n or about
the time you assumed your duties, or talked to me about it
concerning teacher or staff desegregation, Mr. Fowler?
A Yes.
Q And you have been acquainted with that all the time?
A Yes, I have.
Q And I believe your testimony was proceeding under
that you had gotten all that you could get.
A Yes, that is my statement.
Q I don't believe I asked you this question that goes
squarely to the issue here. Would you give the Court your
views as to whether it would be disruptive and have an adverse
educational effect if there were any substantial changes in
staff assignments for September, 1968?
A I think it would be quite disruptive.
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KECROSS EXAMINATION - Fowler 276
MR. FRIDAY: That i3 all I have, Your Honor.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Isn’t it true the man you were talking about, the
man you identified or referred to as being offered the positi
of coach at Park View was Mr. Elders, who is now head coach
at Horace Mann for basketball?
A Yes.
Q And isn’t it true that Park View would not be opening
this year according to your plans as you stated them to him,
as a full senior high school?
A This is true.
Q Isn't it true he would not be able to field a team
against Central High School and Horace Mann High School and
Hall High School his first year --
A Yes.
Q --or his second year?
A Right.
THE COURT: You are giving hi3 reasons for not
accepting. I don’t know what that has to do with- it, Mr.
Walker.
MR. WALKER: I want to raise the inference to the
Court that there were reasons why a Negro person given the
opportunity to assume a head coaching job in a formerly white
school, would turn them down.
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K'Cy?OSS EXAMINATION Fowler 277
THE COURT: That was his own affair.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we are trying to show the
issue of race is still here.
THE COURT: I don’t recognize it in this particular
case.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you know of any other basketball coaches within
the system who hold head coaching positions within the
school system, persons responsible for the athletic program
of a particular school? Do you understand my question?
A Basketball?
Q Isn’t it true ordinarily in Central High School or
Horace Mann High School or Hall High School, the football coac
is the one responsible for the athletic program within that
school?
A I think this is generally true, yes.
Q Historically. Can you say, without a doubt in your
mind, that Mr. Elders clearly understood he was being offered
the head coaching position despite his being a basketball coac
at the ParkView School?
A Can I say without a doubt he understood it?
Q Yes.
A I can’t say without a doubt that he understood it.
MR. WALKER: Thank you.
MR. FRIDAY: No questions.
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278
THE COURT: You may step down, Mr. Fowler.
(Witness excused.)
MR. FRIDAY: Solely for the purpose of the record,
I want to simply point out that the statement read by Mr. Walke
was my statement in the brief to the Court of Appeals. I had
Mr. Parsons testify and explain those figures on direct testimon
It's in the record; Mitchell School was the primary difficulty.
I simply want the record to reflect this.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Meeks 279
Thereupon,
WILLIAM R. MEEKS, JR.
having been called as a witness by counsel for defendants,
and having first been duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q State your name.
A William R. Meeks, Jr.
Q Where do you live, Mr. Meeks?
A 301 Del Rio Drive, Little Rock.
Q How long have you lived in Little Rock?
A All my life.
Q What's your business, your profession?
A I am a partner in Block-Meeks Realty Company in
Little Rock.
Q What is your position with the Little Rock School
District?
A I am a member of the board of directors of the
Little Rock School District.
Q Do you hold an office on the board?
A Yes, sir, I'm vice president of the board.
Q Do you have any connection with a desegregation
committee that's been appointed by the board?
A Yes, I was appointed chairman of the committee by
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Dr. Barron.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Meeks 280
Q All right, Mr. Meeks, as chairman of that com
mittee, have you called various meetings of the committee?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you maintained minutes of the meetings?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, let me state for the
record that I am going to offer into evidence minutes
of these meetings. I am not going to have him testify
in detail what is in them.
There are statements in them, obviously, from
third parties who are not here. These statements are
not introduced for the truth of them, but simply to get
in the record what this committee has been doing and
that it has been pursuing its objective.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Now, to go down --
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I will not consent to
their being --
THE COURT: I can't hear you, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I will not consent to
their being introduced as to the truth of the statements con
tained therein. I will say that these are it is stipulate*
these are what the board or committee purports to be of what
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Meeks 281
happened That's about as far as we could go.
THE COURT: As I understnad it, these are the
minutes of the committee. Is that what they are?
MR. FRIDAY: The desegregation committee. This
is minutes of their meetings, and I p-efaced it that we didn’t
have --
THE COURT: That’s right.
MR. FRIDAY: They do take some out of court
statements, Your Honor.
THE COURT: How shall we mark them?
MR. FRIDAY: Defendant’s Exhibit No. 19, which
is an exhibit consisting over-all of 42 pages.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr. Meeks, go with me now. We're going to shorte
this. It purports to cover the following:
First, the minutes of the meeting held June 12,
1968. Second, the notice given by the committee for a public
hearing. Third, the minutes of the public hearing held
June 26, 1968. Fourth, the minutes of the meeting held July
1, 1968. Fifth, the minutes of a meeting held July 11, 1968.
Sixth, the minutes of a meeting held July 17, 1968.
Next -- and I’ve lost count of the number -- the
minutes held July 22, 1968. Next, the minutes of a meeting
held July 29, 1968. Next, the minutes of a meeting held
August 6, 1968.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Meeks 282
You do identify these as copies of the minutes of
the desegregation committee, is that correct, Mr. Meeks?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right.
MR. FRIDAY: These are offered into evidence,
Your Honor, as Defendant's Exhibit No. 19
THE COURT: They will be received.
(The document heretofore referred
to was marked Defendant's Exhibit
No. 19 for identification, and
was received in evidence.)
MR. FRIDAY: The record already reflects, Your
Honor, that Mr. Meeks’ position on the issue before the Court,
as we see it, is set forth in the resolution of the board
which is in evidence as Defendant's Exhibit No. 17.
The same is true of the remaining members of the
board, who are present in the courtroom, in view of the
evidence being in that they voted for it, and that is their
position.
I do state for the record that Mr. Winslow
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Drummond was not present at that meeting, being unavoidably
out of the state. Actually, Mr. Drummond was in Canada and
could not get back, is my understanding. Therefore, note
in the record H s absence from the meeting and his Ebsence from
the courtroom.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 283
With that, we rest, Your Honor.
Of course, he may cross examine, but that is all
I’m going to put on.
THE COURT: All right.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR.WALKER:
Q What specific action has been recommended to
achieve a unitary school system by your committee, other than
that the committee approved a motion by Mr. Charlie Brown to
the effect that the committee requests the staff to immedi
ately begin to formulate a plan or plans for the division of
the school system into compulsory attendance zones, and to
formulate a plan for the reassignment of the faculty to each
school based upon the ratio of white to Negro teachers in the
system, and to request the staff to suggest to the committee
and all other alternative plans of time schedules which
appear educationally sound and that the committee continue
to study all proposals?
What other specific action has been taken by the
committee and presented to the board than this?
A As far as the promulgation of the plan and the
recommendation of a particular plan, there has been no other
recommendation of a particular plan of the committee.
THE COURT: Mr. Meeks, will you please speak
louder?
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284
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q And this recommendation was adopted, isn't it
true, on Monday, July 22nd, subsequent to the Judge’s letter
dated July 19, 1968.
A That’s correct. I believe the date was July 18th
Q July 18th. So the committee hasn't received --
hasn't made any other report or recommendation or anything?
A No, we have made no definite recommendations as
far as particular plans are concerned.
Q All right. How long has the committee been
meeting?
A Our first meeting was on Jun 12th.
Q So that was June, July and August.
A Yes.
Q Now, you are vice president of the board?
A That's correct.
Q Do you know whether you have a negotiated agree
ment with the Classroom Teachers Association?
A There was an agreement signed in August, 1967.
THE COURT: Mr. Meeks, I dislike to keep asking
you but you're speaking too low.
THE WITNESS: Theree was an agreement signed in
August, 1967, which was -- I don't know the term negotiated
agreement. There was an agreement with C.T.A. signed origi
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 285
nally, I believe, in August, 1967.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Did that agreement, among other things, purport
to guarantee teachers that they would not be assigned to a
school until they had been given ninety days prior notice of
their assignments?
A Mr. Walker, I believe the teacher contracts
referred to the Policy Book of the Little Rock School District
and were incorporated by reference, and what that exact
stipulation is, I do not know.
Q You do not.
Now, you are a real estate broker, is that true?
A Yes.
Q And how long have you been in the real estate busi
ness in Little Rock?
A I’ve been in the real estate business and resi
dential construction business since I graduated from the
University of Arkansas in 1957. Approximately 21 years.
Q Now, I want to ask you one or two questions about
the residential patterns of the community.
Are you the only realtor member of the board?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you received any awards from the Realtors
Association in the last year?
A Yes, sir.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 286
Q What was that?
A I was Realtor of the Year for 1967 for Little
Rock.
Q I see. I want to hand you your deposition, Mr.
Meeks and ask you for the purpose of brevity to describe the
residential living patters as of 1954, the time of the Brown
decision, as you understood them to be, in the City of Little
Rock.
A As of 1954?
Q Yes. Look at the deposition. The page that
I refer to is six.
Now, starting -- would you mind looking at the
map and describing this map in terms of the racial composition
as it moves from east to west and north to south, in 1954?
A In 1954?
Q Yes.
A Beginning on the — you are talking about the
city limits of Little Rock, or the Little Rock School District?
Q Little Rock School District.
A Beginning at the east extremity of the Little
Rock School District which is the airport, the area immediate
ly along the south boundary and the north boundary of the
airport was predominantly Negro. The area immediately west
of the airport for some six or eight blocks was predominantly
Negro. The area on west from thatpoint to, I would say, in
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 287
the area of Broadway or perhaps Arch Street was generally,
I think, an integrated area to the south of that area and
a largely Negro area to the north.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, would you address your
attention to the area south of — that would be 14th street.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Go ahead.
A Generally the area to the north.
THE COURT: Speaker louder, please.
THE WITNESS: All right. The area north of
West Eighth Street.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Go ahead.
A And east of perhaps the State Capitol which
is integrated and predominantly all-Negro area, and the
south extremeties of those streets, south on Chester, Arch
Gaines and that area in there was — down to approximately
25th Street, was a white area with some Negro residences and
south of 25th Street, well at that time it was about the
same composition, probably an integrated area.
THE COURT: I can hardly hear you myself. Forget
that you are talking to Mr. Walker because he is standing
rather close to you. Imagine you are talking at least out
to that rail.
THE WITNESS: All right. The area then that was
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 288
west of, you might say the State Capitol grounds was predominant
ly a white area west to University Avenue except areas along
Wright Avenue and 25th Street which there were some Negro
families living in there. In fact there was a considerable
Negro community type area on just north of the area of the
intersection of Wright Avenue and 25th Street, and then there
was a concentration of Negro families in the area generally
described as soufu of the existing or present Medical Center.
Q Would that be over in this area?
A More south of that area.
Q All right.
A And then the area on the north extremity of
University Avenue going toward the river west including
Kingwood, Normandy area and the area along highway 10 and
coming south generally on what was then south Hays Street
was predominantly white area and going south on University,
existing University Avenue to John Barrow and what is today
the Broadmoor Area was in the area west of Broadmoor and
John Barrow was an integrated area and near the intersection
of 12th Street and South University at that time there was an
integrated area at that location.
Q So right around Hall High School in 1954 --
there was no Hall, of course, at that time —
A That’s right.
Q Around Hays there was a considerable number
of Negro families in that area. Is that true?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 289
A Well, beginning at 12th and University north
there were a considerable number of Negro families in the
area of 12th and University and also a settlement north and
west of the existing Hall High School building.
Q And over in the John Barrow Addition there were
a number of Negroes in that area. Is that true?
A That's correct.
Q And in between in an area know as University Park
there were a large number of Negroes, isn't that true?
A Well, it's in between, but it is to the east
of being directly between.
Q All right. Now, since the construction of Hall
High School, has there been a urban renewal project in that
area?
A There has been an urban renewal project in the
area of 12th and University.
Q 12th and University?
A Yes.
Q Ha^emost of the Negroes who lived east of Hall
tHigh School within the project area which extends over
how far?
A There were none east of Hall High, southeast.
Q Southeast? Southeast, I mean.
A The ones in the University Park project, it is
a clearance area and they have moved.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 290 ■
Q They have all gone?
A Yes.
Q What about the ones who lived to the west of
Hall High School?
A Some are there and some have moved out.
Q But only a handful are there now. Is that
correct?
A Well, I would say there is a small number. I
do not know how many.
Q So that It was in the Hall area listed here,
it’s true that there are only a few Negroes in that area?
A I think that is a correct assumption, yes.
Q And the urban renewal project is responsible in
part for eliminating the integrated area in that area known
as University Park?
A Yes. It has eliminated the integrated situation
that was there, but it is being replaced by the same thing,
to an extent.
Q Maybe?
A To an extent.
Q You don't know that for a fact though?
A Well, I know that some of the lots in the area
north of West Twelfth Street have been purched by Negroes.
Q All right. Now, was there another urban renewal
project subsequent to 1954 in the area known as West Rock?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 291
A Yes.
Q I see. And what happened to those Negro families
who lived in there?
A Where the individual families went, I do not
know. It is a clearance area.
Q Who were they replaced by in terms of race of
persons when the area was redeveloped?
A The area was redeveloped into commercial develop
ment, also some residential and apartments which are
occuppied at this time by whites.
Q Only whites. In this area along Highway 10?
A Cantrell Road, yes.
Q I see. Now, are you familiar with the other
urban renewal projects in the city?
A Generally, yes, sir.
Q Is not there one around the Granite Mountain
area, was not there one then?
A Yes.
Q
renewal?
Was not it an integrated area before urban
t
A To some extent.
Q After urban renewal was it an integrated area?
A I cannot answer it specifically. There may be
some white in it, it is predominantly Negro.
Q This is the area where Gilliam School, Washington
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 292
School are located?
A
Q
No, sir. Gilliam and Granite Heights.
Gilliam and Granite Heights and Horace Mann is
out that way?
A
Q
It is a mile and a half to the north.
Now, was there also another urban renewal project
known as the Live Stock Coliseum Area?
A
Q
A
Q
Yes, sir.
Was that an integrated area in 1954?
Yes.
What is the racial composition of the Live
Stock Coliseum area now?
A It's still an integrated area. I think the
number of Negroes in the area has increased.
Q
A
there.
Q
Substantially?
I won’t qualify it. I just know there are some
Ish School was located in the midst of that
urban renewal area. Isn't that true?
A No. Ish is, I think, in the High Street area.
It's close to the Coliseum area.
Q
area?
A
Now in the High Street area was that an integrated
The southern part was integrated. The northern
part was predominantly Negro.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 293
Q All right. Have there been any changes in the
living patterns since urban renewal went In there?
A Well, this was not a total clearance project, and
it s still in execution. It is a project of selective
clearance on a slum clearance basis and as I say it is
still in progress. There are some new homes being built in the
area and quite a bit of remodeling . As far as the changing
of the racial composition of the area, I think it is fair
to say that the number of Negroes has increased.
Q Substantially.
A Again, you will have to talk about a particular
area.
Q What about around Central High School. How has
the racial composition of that area changed since 1954?
A Generally north of West 25th Street and east
of High Street in 1954 for several blocks west of High Street
there was almost a completely white area which at this time
it is almost a completely Negro area and that is south of
roughly Sixteenth Street.
Q Now what was the racial composition in 1954 of
the area east of Broadway back to say around the airport, this
dividing line here which is Sherman, Barber, McGowan
and that area in there?
A Well, if you want to run approximately from
Broadway back to the railroad which is just west of the airport
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 294
which I think includes the whole area you are -speaking of,
the composition of the races in the northern part of that
sector has remained approximately the same. The racial
composition of the population in the south part of that sector
has increased, I think, as far as the number of Negroes is
concerned but not substantially.
Q Isn’t it true that you have considerably more
Negroes though in this part of the city in 1968 in terms
of percentages than you had in 1954?
A Yes, I said that it had increased. Yes.
Q Mr. Meeks, do you know, as a realtor, could you
state whether any real estate brokers who were white that you
know promoted sales to Negroes in white subdivisions that were
being developed?
A Up to this time, I know of none.
Q I see. What is the situation with regard to
housing segregation in the western part of the city? I mean
would a realtor to your knowledge up until say the last month
or two or three months ago willingly sell to a Negro person
in say Colony West, Leawood?
A May I put that on a general basis?
Q Yes.
A I would have to generalize and say I don’t know
of any that would have.
Q Don't the realtors in Little Rock, as in most
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 295
places, have a policy whereby they will not encourage what is
known as block-busting?
A What is block-busting. Yes.
Q They have a policy where they will not encourage
what is known as block-busting.
A We might out to define block-busting.
Q Would you do that, please?
A \es. Block-busting, in my opinion, is the
policy of someone buying one house in a block where the block
is predominantly white in an area which is or could be
turning to Negro and using the fact they have bought a house
in that block and will sell to Negroes it will run the
house prices down for the whites to sell at a low price and
then turn around and sell it at a higher price to colored
prospects. We have a policy as realtors specifically not to
encourage that policy to any extent and I might say that I am
proud of the way the white people and the Negroes have re
acted in the changing areas of the town where the areas have
changed to where there has been practically no difficulty in
understanding between races in that context.
Q Would you identify the subdivisions west of
University that have developed since 1954?
A Have you got all afternoon?
Q Walton He ghts?
A Let's start at University.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 296
THE COURT: You can have until noon, if you
will look at the clock.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q We can stipulate that all this subdivision
that have developed since 1954 within the part west, the
section west of University Avenue —
A No, sir.
Q — have been all-white. All the subdivisions
developed since 1954 in the western part of Little Rock,
subdivisions have been all-white. Isn’t that true?
A Yes, part of the subdivisions west of University
were developed prior to 1954.
Q But the ones that were developed since 1954,
or completed since 1954 to the point where you are now, are
all-white?
A Yes, unless you want to say John Barrow Addition
is west of University, but it isn't. It is a variance.
Q You would not call John Barrow addition a sub
division developed by subdividers in the city, would you?
A Well, some have built houses out there and in that
instance they have encouraged —
Q But it is not a planned subdivision as the others
are. Isn't that true?
A Well, we can say that, I think, yes.
THE COURT: We will adjourn until 1:15.
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297
(Whereupon, at 12:00 o'clock, noon, the above-entitled
proceedings were in recess, to reconvene at 1:15 o'clock, p.n.,
the afternoon of the same day.)
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 298
AFTERNOON SESSION
Thereupon,
1:15 p.m.
WILLIAM R. MEEKS, JR.
having been previously called as a witness, and having pre
viously been duly sworn, resumed the stand and was further
examined and testified as follows:
CROSS EXAMINATION - Resumed
BY MR. WALKER:
Q I don't think I have any more questions -- let
me ask one or two more. Mr. Meeks, would the Parsons Plan
in your judgment as a board member —
THE COURT: I can't hear you.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Would the Parsons Plan, in your judgment as a
board member, be a better desegregation plan for getting
Iiall High School integrated than the geographic zoning plan
which you have prepared which you have before you as an
exhibit?
A The Parsons Plan itself, would —
Q Using the zone lines that he had.
A The Parsons Plan would have eliminated Horace
Mann High School and would have increased the amount of
integration at Hall High School.
Q Let me say, using the zone lines or similar
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lines on east west basis that Mr. Parsons drew, would that
have brought about more substantial desegregation,in your
judgment as a board member than the present plan which is
drawn and shown there to you in Exhibit 14?
A It would have increased integration in numbers,
yes.
Q Has the board during your time on the board
directed the administrative staff to prepare an alternative
which took into account a system of pairing schools?
The question is, have you directed the adminis
trative staff to prepare a pairing alternative to freedom of
choice?
A No, sir.
Q Have you directed the staff to prepare information
for you, having in minda feeder system of desegregation?
A In this context, that as Mr. Roberts explained
to us that in effect the zoning map he has drawn up would be
a feeder system to an extent from the elementary schools to
junior high schools.
tQ But have you directed the administrative staff
to prepare something, a plan along the line of a feeder system?
A Not specifically, no, sir.
Q So then other than this plan that was prepared
CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 299
the direction of the Court, the board has not prepared any
ernative, or directed the staff to prepare any alternative?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 300
A Well, let me say this. The committee has, and
I think the minutes that were introduced will reflect some
l-> or IS suggestions, not necessarily plans, but there have
been some alternates to our existing freedom of choice suggest
ed as well as alterations, perhaps, as we see in the alterna
tives to the zoning.
These plans and alternates to various plans have been
discussed and that is one of the reasons, I think,that they
should be considered in arriving at a permanent solution or
a permanent plan for the Little Rock School District and
that is one of the reasons, at least for my reason that we
needed the request of time to evaluate the various suggestions
which have been made to the Committee and by various members
of the committee. For instance, a similar type proposal that
Mr. Woods and I presented for a reservation of a certain
number of spaces in the particular schools for students of the
minority race.
Q I am asking — the question was, have you given
any specific directions to the administrative staff to come
t
up with another kind of a plan for you other than the freedom
of choice?
A Well, of course, the staff has been studying
along with the committee the various proposals and upon
receipt of the Judge's letter, as far as I was concerned, that
is what we had to do and we did it as effectively and efficient
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 301
ly as possible by not just drawing lines arbitrarily, but
by drawing lines with specific pupil counts that would be
in attendance at the various school plans.
Q My question is, the committee nor the board
gave any specific directions to the staff to prepare an
alternative to freedom of choice other than the alternative
suggested by the district court?
A No, sir.
Q Is your answer — okay.
Now, do you feel that the geographical attendance
area plan that has been devised is a solution to the desegrega
tion problems of the district?
A Mr. Walker, we are talking at this time a matter
of degree. It certainly is, or could be the ultimate solution.
I don't want to make an evaluation. I frankly have not had
time to evaluate it along with the other suggestions that have
been made to the committee or to the staff or to the board.
Q Isn't it likely that if you adopt a geographic
attendance area plan which has a small number of Negro pupils
in enrollment in the east side schools that are predicted,
based on your experience as a realtor and member of the board,
that you will have re-segregation in terms of the neighborhoods
in these communities in that white pupils will do their best
to move out of minority situations?
A Mr. Walker, that certainly is a possibility, but
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 302
it is also a possibility with any plan for this reason. I
believe from the information that has been presented to the
Court from 1960 to 1968, the number of Negro students in the
Little Rock School District has increased 50 percent.
Q Well, my point is, your experience as a board
member and as a realtor in the community leads you to conclude
that as Negroes move into an area and begin to become large
numbers in that school, the whites in that particular area
tend to move out or choose other schools?
A I would say there is a tendency for that, yes.
Q And that did happen with Mitchell and it is
happening at West Side. Is that your experience?
A That is true.
Q Do you have any exp rience as a board member or
as a realtor which would lead you to conclude that whites in
large numbers move into predominantly black areas for the
purpose of bringing about a different kind of community?
A Now, that whites move in —
Q Do you have any experience with large numbers of
whites moving into all black areas?
A There are some instances. I would not say it
was a general fcendeng^, The new apartment buildings that have
been built on the east side. I think there are some specific
cases. It is not a general situation.
MR. WALKER: I don't think I have any more
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REDIRECT AND RECROfS - Meeks 303
q u e stio n s o f Mr. Meeks.
THE COJRT: Is there anything further, Mr. Friday?
MR. FRIDAY: One question. I don't believe this
was in the record. I didn't understand part of it.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q He questioned you on the situation around Hall
High about 1954. As a realtor, do you know when the school
district acquired those sites?
A I believe in 1953.
Q '53?
A Yes, sir.
MR. FRIDAY: I have nothing else.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you know that, Mr. Meeks?
A They acquired Hall in 1953.
Q Do you know that?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that they acquired Forrest Heights
in '53?
A I believe they acquired Forrest Heights at
approximately the same time.
Q But isn't it a fact that construction was not
begun on either one of those school sites until after 1954?
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ROSS EXAMINATION - Meeks 304
Isn’t that true?
A I cannot state positively it did not start prior
to then. It did not finish until after 1954, I knew that.
Q At the time this matter was first litigated in
1956, the construction of Hall High School was not under way
at that time was it?
A I do not know, Mr. Walker.
THE COURT: You may step down.
(The witness was excused.)
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 305
MR. F R I D A Y : Y o u r H o n o r , h a v i n g p r e m a t u r e l y r e s t e d
b e f o r e , t h e d e f e n d a n t s --
T H E C O U R T : H a d n ' t y o u b e t t e r r e c a l l M r . P a r s o n s ?
MR . W A L K E R : I w a n t to f i n i s h Mr . P a r s o n s .
MR . F R I D A Y : A l l r i g h t , I ' l l w a i t u n t i l M r . W a l k e r
f i n i s h e s h i s c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n .
T H E C O U R T : I t h i n k t h a t w o u l d b e b e t t e r .
M r . P a r s o n s , w i l l y o u c o m e a r o u n d ?
T h e r e u p o n ,
F L O Y D W. P A R S O N S
h a v i n g b e e n p r e v i o u s l y c a l l e d as a w i t n e s s b y c o u n s e l f o r
d e f e n d a n t s , a n d h a v i n g p r e v i o u s l y b e e n d u l y s w o r n , w a s r e c a l l e c
f o r e x a m i n a t i o n , a n d w a s e x a m i n e d a n d t e s t i f i e d f u r t h e r as
f o l l o w s :
C R O S S E X A M I N A T I O N - R e c a l l e d
B Y M R . W A L K E R :
Q Mr . P a r s o n s , d i d y o u a t a n y t i m e p r i o r to J u l y 15,
1 9 6 8 , e v e r a p p r o a c h t h e C l a s s r o o m T e a c h e r s O r g a n i z a t i o n t h r o u g h
t h e i r e l e c t e d r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s i n a b o d y , a n d a s k t h e m t o a s s i s t
t h e d i s t r i c t i n w o r k i n g o u t a s a t i s f a c t o r y f a c u l t y d e s e g r e g a
t i o n p l a n ?
A N o t t o m y k n o w l e d g e . A s a b o d y , y o u m e a n t h e m e m
b e r s h i p o f t h e C l a s s r o o m T e a c h e r s A s s o c i a t i o n s ?
Q Y e s . T h e m e m b e r s h i p o r t h e i r l e a d e r s as a b o d y .
A I h a v e o n m a n y o c c a s i o n s , t h e i r l e a d e r s .
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 306
Q I m e a n t h e l e a d e r s , as a b o d y , n o t i n d i v i d u a l l y .
A T h e l e a d e r s as a b o d y , y e s .
Q W h o w e r e t h e l e a d e r s t h a t y o u d i d t h a t ?
A I c e r t a i n l y c o u l d n o t n a m e a l l o f t h e m , b u t M r . —
I ' m t a l k i n g a b o u t M r . O ' C a i n , M r s . G l o v e r , a n d M r s . E l l i s o n ,
a n d p e o p l e l i k e that.
Q A n d a s k e d t h e m to h e l p y o u f o r m u l a t e a d e s e g r e g a
t i o n p l a n ?
A N o t t o f o r m u l a t e a p l a n , b u t t o a s s i s t i n e v e r y
w a y p o s s i b l e i n t h e i m p l e m e n t a t i o n o f f a c u l t y d e s e g r e g a t i o n .
Q D i d y o u a s k t h e m t o a s s i s t i n t h i s l a w s u i t ?
A N o , I t o l d t h e m t h a t t h e y h a d a r i g h t to e x p r e s s
t h e m s e l v e s i n c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t h e l a w s u i t , n o t d e l i n e a t i n g a t
a l l m y p o s i t i o n o r a n y p o s i t i o n t h e y s h o u l d t a k e .
Q D i d y o u o u t l i n e t o t h e m f o u r a l t e r n a t i v e s t h a t
w e r e a v a i l a b l e t o t h e m ?
M R . F R I D A Y : Y o u r H o n o r , I d o n ' t k n o w w h a t t h e
i s s u e is.
T H E C O U R T : T h e r e i s n ' t a n i s s u e , a n d i t d o e s n ' t
a m o u n t t o a h i l l o f b e a n s .
f
M R . F R I D A Y : T h e C o u r t h a s a l r e a d y s a i d t h e y c o u l d
i n t e r v e n e .
M R . W A L K E R : Y o u r H o n o r , I t h i n k t h a t t h i s d e f e n d
a n t ' s a c t i o n b o r d e r s o n c o n t e m p t .
T H E C O U R T : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n ?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 307
MR. W A L K E R : I t h i n k t h i s d e f e n d a n t ' s a c t i o n b o r d e iĉi
o n c o n t e m p t .
T H E C O U R T : W h i c h d e f e n d a n t ?
M R . W A L K E R : T h i s d e f e n d a n t , Y o u r H o n o r .
T H E C O U R T : Y o u m e a n Mr . P a r s o n s ?
MR . W A L K E R : Mr. P a r s o n s .
T H E C O U R T : F o r d o i n g w h a t ?
M R . W A L K E R : F o r a c t i v e l y e n c o u r a g i n g — and I ' d
l i k e t o p u t o n e v i d e n c e o n t h i s ---- C l a s s r o o m T e a c h e r s t o t a k e
a p o s i t i o n i n o p p o s i t i o n t o c o m p l e t e d e s e g r e g a t i o n f o r t h e
1 9 6 8 - 6 9 s c h o o l y e a r .
T H E C O U R T : A s t h e r e c o r d s t a n d s , y o u r s t a t e m e n t
is c o m p l e t e l y w i t h o u t f o u n d a t i o n .
M R . W A L K E R : I w o u l d l i k e to p u t o n p r o o f .
T H E C O U R T : Y o u h a v e M r . P a r s o n s o n t h e s t a n d .
P r o c e e d w i t h y o u r c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n .
M R . W A L K E R : M a y I c o n t i n u e ?
T H E C O U R T : W h a t is y o u r q u e s t i o n ?
M R . W A L K E R : W o u l d y o u r e a d i t b a c k , p l e a s e ?
(The r e p o r t e r r e a d the q u e s t i o n , as r e q u e s t -
t
e d . )
T H E W I T N E S S : I s u r e l y m a y h a v e . I d o n o t a t t h e
m o m e n t r e m e m b e r t h e f o u r a l t e r n a t i v e s . I f y o u h a v e t h e m t h e r e ,
t h i s w a s d o n e o r a l l y b y m e a n d i f I d i d a n d y o u h a v e t h e m a n d
w i l l r e a d t h e m t o m e
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 308
T H E C O U R T : If y o u d o n ' t k n o w , H r ^ P a r s o n s , t e l l us
y o u d o n ' t k n o w .
B Y M R . W A L K E R :
Q Y o u d o n ' t k n o w ?
A No.
Q D o y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r y o u a s k e d P r i n c i p a l s R o u n d
t a b l e t o t a k e a p o s i t i o n i n o p p o s i t i o n to c o m p l e t e d e s e g r e g a
t i o n ?
A I d i d n o t .
Q H a d y o u e v e r s o u g h t t h e a s s i s t a n c e o f t h e P r i n c i p a ]
R o u n d t a b l e b e f o r e i n a r r i v i n g i n a p l a n o f d e s e g r e g a t i o n o r a
p o s i t i o n t o b e p r e s e n t e d to th e C o u r t ?
A O n l y i n t e r m s o f d i s c u s s i n g w i t h t h e m t h e p r o b l e m s
r e l a t i n g t o f a c u l t y d e s e g r e g a t i o n a n d r e q u e s t i n g t h e m t o a s s i s t
Q D i d t h e y t a k e a n y p o s i t i o n w i t h r e f e r e n c e to y o u r
l a s t r e q u e s t a n d , o f so, w h a t w a s t h e i r p o s i t i o n ?
A T h e y d i d t a k e a p o s i t i o n a n d s e n t a v e r y b r i e f
n o t e to m y o f f i c e s a y i n g t h a t t h e i r p o s i t i o n w a s t h a t w h a t e v e r
t h e d e c i s i o n t h e b o a r d m a d e c o n c e r n i n g t h i s m a t t e r , t h e y w o u l d
s u p p o r t a n d m a k e e v e r y e f f o r t t o i m p l e m e n t it.
Q I s n ' t i t t r u e t h a t t h e y t o o k t h a t p o s i t i o n —
i s n ' t i t t r u e t h e y s a i d t h e y w o u l d s u p p o r t a n y p o s i t i o n t a k e n
b y t h e b o a r d a n d a p p r o v e d b y t h e C o u r t , p u t t i n g i t t h a t w a y ?
A M a y b e t h e y did.
T H E C O U R T : I r e g a r d it as c o m p l e t e l y i m m a t e r i a l ,
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons
Mr. W a l k e r .
309
MR. WALKER: I will dispense with that with this
witness, Your Honor.
l H E COURT: Your dissent is on the record. Go to
another subject.
B Y M R . W A L K E R :
Q Mr. Parsons, do you still stand by the Oregon re
report for what is purported to achieve?
A I don't know what you mean by "do you still stand
by the Oregon report".
Q All right, then, do you still agree with the State
ment of General Information that you have included herein, the
history let me go down to it item by item.
THE COURT: Is that the paragraph you read the
other day?
MR. WALKER: No, Your Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you still perceive he history and overview of
the proliem in the same manner as you did in January of 1968?
A You're talking about Oregon report. I did not
write the Oregon report.
Q I'm talking about the Parsons report right now.
A You said Oregon report.
Q You're right.
Now, the Parsons report, did you still have the
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same viewpoint insofar as the history and nveryjew of the pro
blem is concerned?
CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 310
A I have answered that previously, yes, and I answer
it as yes now.
Q Would you still make the recommendations that you
made in the Parsons Plan, as a plan which would help the board
to move toward more desegregation than you have?
A There certainly might be given areas within the
plan itself where we might see,if we studied it carefully,
where it could be improved. To say that I would recommend
identically the same thing today, I would not be in any positic
to say that.
Q Now, did you at any time recommend that Park View
be opened as an elementary school?
A Not to my recollection, no.
Q Did the Oregon Report or Dr. GoIdhammer ever
recommend that it be opened as an elementary school?
A Not that I recall.
Q What was the recommendation of the Oregon team as
to the use of Park View?
t
A I do not recall the recommendation.
Q Do you recall stating in a board meeting that the
Oregon team said that it was all right for you to go ahead and
build the school*and it could be used either as a junior high,
middle grade school, grades nine, ten and eleven, or as a
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 311
senior high school?
A If the board minutes reflect that, this is what I
said, I'm sure. I do recall saying that Dr. Goldhammer had
placed his stamp of approval on the construction of Park View
School, and that it should be a school, without designation.
Q All right, Mr. Parsons. Just one or two other
qiestions for information.
Isn't it true that the young Townsend intervenor
sought application to the Hall High School and was denied
because of the fact, for this 1968-69 year, that it was over
crowded?
A I'm not aware of this, no.
Q Since this lawsuit, you haven't checked to see
Xtfhether or not —
A No, I haven't. It's so stated in the suit that
she did seek admission.
Q You have no reason to believe that that's not true?
A No, I have no reason to believe that is not true.
Q Now, at the close of my complaint, Booker Junior
High School, Ish and Gilliam were all named for Negro citizens
of Little Rock, is that true?
A Correct.
Q I don't think we identified a couple of schools
yesterday. I want to get this straight, too, as being con
structed since 1956.
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CROSS EXAMINATION _ Recalled - Parsons 312
My records show that Bale was constructed in 1959;
Brady, 1961; Terry, 1965, and Williams, 1961. Is that approxi
mately correct?
A Mr. Walker, I would not question all of your state
ments, but certainly I came here in 1961, and Bale was a long-
established school in this system -- in the county system,
and had been annexed to the Little Rock School District in 1961.
Q All right. Is it true that the Housing Authority
selected the site on which Ish School is located?
A No, this is not true that the Housing Authority
selected the site. We did work with the Housing Authority in
the process of selecting the site.
Q But they did recommend that particular site.
A Not by lot and block, but the general area.
Q But the general area.
A In the general area, yes.
Q And isn't it true that the Housing Authority also
recommeded a site and their recommendation was approved for
construction of an elementary school on West Twelfth Street?
A Not to my knowledge. Are you talking abou t -- are
you talking about the other side of University Avenue?
Q Yes.
A All right. No, they didn't recommend. They merely
requested us to consider whether or not a site would be needed
there in terms of the projected construction that would occur
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ElOSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 313
within the area. I would not call it a rccongnendat ion.
Q Now, isn't it true that several schools that you
operate in the western part of the city which have been con
structed since 1956 are completely air-conditioned?
A Oh, yes.
Q Which schools are they?
A Henderson Junior High, McDermott, Terry -- this
probably
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
is all.
What about carpeting?
There's carpeting in Terry and McDermott.
Is there a carpet in any of the Negro schools?
Not to my knowledge.
Is any Negro school fully air-conditioned?
I'm trying to recall Ish. I'm not sure whether it
is or isn't.
Q Now, would you state the number of portable class-
r ocm facilities that you have at Carver School?
A I do not know.
Q There is a large number, would you say?
A Carver? t
Q Yes.
A No, I would say there is not a large number.
Q Would there be as many as: five?
A I think not*
Q What about at Pfeifer?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 314
A Probably four or five at Pfeifer^
Q What pupils are those four or five used to accom
modate?
A They are used to accommodate pupils that are
enrolled in Pfeifer School in grades one through six.
Q Is that to accotuuodate the overcrowded situation?
A What would be an overcrowded situation, were it not
for the fact that the portable classrooms were there, perhaps.
Q I see. Do you have portable classes, a number of
portable classes, an any of the other Negro schools in the
eastern part of Little Rock?
A Not that I know of.
Q Do you still use the Bush School that was con
structed at the turn of the century?
A Yes.
Q Do you have plans to continue using that school?
A No, we actually do not have. We will for this
coming year, I ’m sure, but we do not have plans to continue
over a long period of time.
Q You have plans for the construction of a new school
to replace that?
A We don't — we just do not know.
Q You don't know. You don't have any plans at this
time?
A That's correct.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled — Parsons 315
Q Now, with regard to Rightsell, is-it true that you
had an overcrowded situation there last year and year before
last, and that the overcrowded pupils were accommodated at the
school adjacent to Dunbar that had been abandoned?
What was the name of elementary school?
A Adjacent to Dunbar?
Q Yes.
A Gibbs.
Q No, there s another one that was formerly used as
an elementary school.
A It, too, is Gibbs.
Q It's called the Old Gibbs School, isn't it?
A That's correct.
Q And it had been abandoned for use as a school
building, hadn't it?
A But completely remodeled.
Q I see. So the overflow from Rightsell was assigned
for one year, 1966-67, to Old Gibbs, is that true?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Isn't it true that last year Ish was overcrowded?
A Ish was declared overcrowded, yes.
Q Did you give the pupils in that school second choica
A Oh, yes.
Q Why did it remain overcrowded for the entire year,
according to your figures?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 316
A Are you going to cite some figures?
Q Well, I will.
Did you give the pupils at Pfeifer -- what's the
Negro school on the east side?
A Pfeifer.
Q Did you give the Negro pupils who attended those
overcrowded classes a second choice?
A No.
Q You did not?
A No.
Q Did you consider assigning them on some geographic
attendance area basis after the overcrowded condition occurred?
A At Pfeifer?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q Isn't it true that Carver has been overcrowded the
past two years, and that the pupils have not been given a
second choice of schools?
A No, this is not true.
Q What is the optimum enrollment of Caryer, and what
is the enrollment?
A It depends entirely on whose standards you are
talking about.
Q I’m talking about your standards, Mr. Parsons.
A Optimum enrollment?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 317
Q Let me ask you, Mr. Parsons — IJaave some figures
here -- whether Ish was built to accommodate approximately a
total of 424 pupils?
A No, Ish has eighteen regular classrooms, I believe.
Q Eighteen regular classrooms?
A And could accommodate -- certainly not optimum,
but certainly could accommodate 540 students, thirty times
eighteen.
Q That is not optimum, though.
A No, it s not, but the Little Rock system has never
been able to operate its program of instruction at the optimum
le ve 1.
Q I notice that the Oregon Report cites that Ish
was 121 percent over utilization. Would you call that a fair
statement for 1966-67?
A I do not know what the enrollment at Ish was in
1966-67.
Q But you do know that it was overcrowded?
A Yes, it was overcrowded.
Q What other schools were overcrowded besides Hall
High School?
A I believe those were identified by — when are
you talking about?
Q This last school year, sir.
THE COURT: I know that is in the record three or
C.f. 5 1
CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 318
four times.
2 TKE WITNESS: It's already in the record, I'm sure,
3 THE COURT: Let's pass on, Mr. Walker.
4 MR. WALKER: The point I'm making, Your Honor, is
5 that some people were not given the second choice of schools.
6 THE COURT: We are not talking about choice of
7 schools, now.
8 BY MR. WALKER:
9 Q ^ould you state the average age -- according to
10 your knowledge of the schools attended by Negro pupils on
11 the eastern part of the city.
12 A I have never worked this out, including buildings
k 13 like Mann and Booker, so it would be most difficult for me to
</
14 sit here and average all of this, as you well know.
15 THE COURT: You just don't know?
16 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
17 THE COURT: All right.
18 BY MR. WALKER:
19 Q Isn't it true, though, that of the schools that
20 have been historically identified as Negro, that they have beer
21 considerably older than the schools that have been constructed,
22 which are now attended by the largest number of white pupils?
23 A I do not know. I have not analyzed it.
*> 24 Q I thought I could save some time that way.
25 Would you say the figure set forth as to the dates
.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled - Parsons 319
that schools were constructed as set out in the Oregon Report
are accurate?
A I ’m sure they are accurate.
Q Aind if those figures are in your report, they would
be accurate?
A Yes.
Q Isn t it true that the area surrounding all of your
white schools in the western part of the city have paved areas,
and the drainage is good, and those kinds of conditions are
satisfactory?
A I'm sure that the conditions are in reasonablly
good shape. I could not say that they are all in perfect
condition.
Q I understand. Would you say that the same conditioi
pertains with regard to Carver School?
A To some degree, yes.
Q But it would be a lesser degree; is that right?
A Probably, a lesser degree.
Q And would the same be true of the school located --
well the Ish School? Wasn't it constructed in a rather low
site, a low area?
A Yes, a low area.
Q And when it rains> water goes into the school?
A Well, we didn't have water damage during the last
flooding period we had in Little Rock.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Recalled Parsons 320
Q Did you have water going into the school, though,
Mr. Parsons?
A Not to my knowledge, no.
Q Were pupils not permitted to attend those schools
for several days because of the rain damage?
A Not to my knowledge, in connection with Ish.
Q What schools were so situated?
A Mann and Gillam had some water problems. Water
never did get in Gillam, but it almost got in at the floor
level.
Q Mr. Parsons, did you ever do anything to — did
you ever take any actions to promote to the total community,
acceptance and understanding of the Oregon Plan?
A You would have to separate your question from
acceptance and understanding. I did promote and appeared befor
many, many groups discussing the Oregon Plan in terms of
helping them to understand the Oregon Plan.
Q Was this after you had taken the position in
opposition to it?
tA Prior to and subsequent thereto.
Q I see. And do you consider the desegregation plan
that you have presented to the Court — the zoning plan — to
be a satisfactory, feasible alternative to freedom of choice?
A Probably as an interim measure, yes.
Q How long do you think it will take ultimately to
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CFOSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 321
have the sc h o o ls com p letely desegregated in com pliance w ith
the p r io r orders o f th is Court?
A I do not know th a t .
Q I s e e . W i l l — in terms o f numbers o f Negro p u p ils
in w h ite sc h o o ls and v ic e versa - - w i l l the zoning plan which
you have prepared —
THE COURT: The what plan?
BY MR. WALKER:
Q W i l l the zoning plan ,w hich you have prepared , bring
about more n um erical in te g r a tio n than freedom o f ch oice?
A Y e s .
Q What would be the number o f Negro p u p ils in form erL
w h ite sc h o o ls under your plan?
A I do not know the exact number, but i t is — i t * s
e /id e n t th a t th ere would be few er, perhaps, Negro p u p ils in
the h i s t o r i c a l l y id e n t if ie d w hite sch o o ls under the zoning plan
than we fin d th ere under the freedom o f ch oice p la n . But there
would be more w h ite p u p ils in the Negro sch o o ls under the zonin
plan than we have under the freedom o f ch oice p la n .
Q W i l l th ere be any change in the number o f Negro
p u p ils in the sch o o ls which I s h a l l now i d e n t i f y : McDermott,
T e rry , B rady, J e ffe r s o n , F a ir Park, W estern H i l l s , M e a d o w cliff,
P u la sk i H eigh ts?
A I do not know.
Q You do not know?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 322
A No.
Q Let me give you the figures, Mr. Parsons, because
this is very important. Would you look at your plan, Mr.
Parsons , and tell me the number of Negro pupils in white
schools under freedom of choice at the close of the last
school year. I give you a copy of your plan.
(The above document was handed to the
witness for his use by counsel for
plaintiffs.)
A You didn't show me where it is, though, did you?
Do you know where it is?
Your Honor, may I say that as a witness, I'll accej
the figures that are given here, and i'll accept the figures
given on the map as to what a zoning plan would do; and if
there is either less or more we will still accept these figure
Would that be acceptable?
MR. WALKER; If they will accept the notion, Your
Honor, that there would be no difference in the particular
schools I have identified under freedom of choice plan -- that
a zoning plan would not bring about greater desegregation in
those schools, then certainly, I would.
THE COURT; He didn't say that.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Would a zoning plan bring about greater desegregati
in those particular schools, than freedom of choice?
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THE COURT: He said that whatever the figures show,
that's the way --
MR. WALKER: Figures show that under the zoning pla
none of those schools would have any Negro pupils.
THE COURT: You can figure that out from the
exhibits .
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, I want to ask you a few more questions
about these lines.
What standards did you use -- when I say you, I
mean your staff and the board -- in determining how they would
draw those lines?
THE COURT: He is referring to Defendant’s Exhibit
No. 12.
MR. WALKER: This really pertains to all the zone
lines drawn.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q I take it the criteria were the same for all; is
that true?
A The criteria were the same for all. We used the
criteria that we would draw geographical attendance zones --
THE COURT: A little louder, Mr. Parsons.
THE WITNESS: We used the criteria that we would
draw geographical attendance zones, attempting to achieve as
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parson s
A I do not know.
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much Integration as could feasibly be achieved without creatir
difficulties in terms of distance from school, and difficultici
in terms of transportation for pupils who were zoned within
each attendance area.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Is that the only criterion you used?
A Yes.
Q I notice in your elementary plan, whichis Defendant;
Exhibit 12, that in this area here (indicating) where Stephen*
School is located, you have your zone lines drawn in such a
way as to encompass 365 Negro pupils and 83 white pupils; is
that true?
CROSS EXAMINATION _ Parsons 324
A Yes.
Q I notice right adjacent to Stephens is a school
which would have seventy Negro pupils and 218 white pupils;
is that true?
A Yes.
Q So, if you drew the zoining line north-south
instead of drawing them east-west, as you did for this parties
combination of zones, you would have been able to have more
white pupils in Stephens and more Negro pupils in Lee School;
isn't that true?
A If you had drawn the zone lines, however, north-soi
you would have drawn your lines through each of the buildings,
in effect, and you will notice that those two buildings
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
practically line up north and south.
325
Q I notice, Mr. Parsons, one is on "0" Street and
the other is between Seventeenth and Eighteenth Street, back
of 0 Street, so they wouldn't have been drawn through the
buildings from the location here.
A Well, you would just barely have room to draw a
line between the two buildings if you drew the line north and
south.
Q But the street would be down between one school
and the other, and all the pupils on the western side of
Lee School -- that the number of those pupils would have
brought about a better racial balance in Lee, wouldn't it?
A Oh, yes, it probably would.
Q And a better racial balance in Stephens, wouldn't
it?
A Probably would. At the same time, it would have
created some transportation problems, not monumental, for
these people that they do not have with the lines drawn as
they are drawn.
Q What is the greatest distance from Lee School to
the perimeter of the second zone here?(Indicating.)
MR. WALKER: Are you following me, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Generally, yes.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q What Is the distance there in terms of miles, Mr.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 326
Parsons?
A I do not know, of course.
Q Mr. Parsons, I have taken the liberty to count, am
I see if you go from Lee School south to Twenty-First Street,
and then all the way from Twenty-First Street on over to
Abigail, you have a total of twelve blocks; would that be
approximately correct?
A I would agree with you.
Q Now, is that too great a distance for a pupil to
walk to get to school in your judgment?
A No, I would not say so .
Q So, the transportation problem would not be very
great if you were to have north-south rather than east-west
zoning.
A It would not be very great, but it would be greater
Q What would be the transportation problem you
identified, Mr. Parsons?
A Getting from home to school.
Q Twelve blocks. Isn’t it true, though, that the
pupils who attend Lee School now, which is at Thirteenth and
Oak, who live near the railroad track at the perimeter of the
boundary would have to walk fourteen blocks?
A He doesn't have to attend Lee School. We operate
under the freedom of choice.
Q Under this attendance area plan that you have
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 327
prepared?
A I do not follow you.
Q In other words, I'm simply saying that even within
the zone, you have pupils who are going to have to walk as
far to get to Lee School as they would have to walk if they
lived in another zone.
A Individual pupils, yes.
Q I see.
A But the bulk of the pupils would be better served
in terms of transportation, distance from school, the way the
■^nes are drawn instead of drawing them the other way. But,
at the same time, I think the type of problem you point out
here shows we need more time in which to study all of these
matters prior to putting a plan of this type or any other type
plan into effect.
Q I notice Stephens and Lee are about six blocks
apart; is that true?
A I *m sure it is .
Q So, you could draw the zone lines in such a way as
to spread out the races and have a reasonable proportion of
Negroes and whites in each school.
A I f there are 24 blocks in the area, we could draw
the lines in 24 different places.
Q I also notice that the school right to the north of
Stephens School, Stephens being majority Negro, the lines have
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 328
been drawn in such a w a y as to only have seven Negroes out of
220 in that particular school.
Could you not have divided Stephens up in such a
way as to apportion some of these Negroes who are in the
majority at Stephens into this particular school?
A It could be drawn any number of different ways ,
and we need more time to study this matter.
Q So, what you did was come up with some lines and
said to the Judge, "Here are some zones".
THE COURT: Pass on to the next question,
a. BY MR. WALKER:
Q You don't have any other criteria, do you?
A No.
Q Now, would this also be true, Mr. Parsons, of this
- school -- what is this -- Centennial?
A I don’t know what you are talking about "would thi:
be true".
Q Centennial is adjacent to -- which school is this
on Markham, which is 216 white pupils and eighteen Negro?
That would be Woodruff School; is that true?
A What are you asking me?
Q This is Woodruff School where I ’m pointing?
A Oh, yes.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I call your attention to
Exhibit 12 of the Defendants.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 329
THE COURT: Yes. ~
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Woodruff Is located adjacent to or somewhat near t<
Centennial School?
A THE COURT: I see Woodruff.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q I notice that Centennial is going to have a majorii
Negro population, whereas Woodruff is going to have only
eighteen Negro pupils and 216 white pupils. Could not you
have drawn the zone lines in such a way as to have fewer
Negro pupils at Centennial and more Negro pupils in Woodruff?
A It's entirely possible, sure.
Q And would not this have caused the situation in
your judgment as an educator, looking at the experience the
district has had, Centennial at least -- the white population
in Centennial to be more stable?
A Possibly.
Q In your experience as an administrator, isn't it
true that when white pupils tend to become a racial minority
their numbers tend to steadily decline from year to year
within that school?
A This has been an experience in Little Rock in
connection with one or two schools, yes.
Q With Mitchell School?
A Yes.
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 330
Q With West Side Junior High School?
A Yes.
Q With Central High School?
A No.
Q Central will have 26 percent Negro this year; isn't:
that true?
A Approximately, yes.
Q And last year it was nineteen percent?
A Yes.
Q And in Centennial School?
A Well, Centennial School has never operated with a
majority of Negro pupils in it.
Q Before now. But the number of white pupils has
been steadily declining; is that true?
A Either the number of white pupils has been steadily
declining,or the number of Negro pupils has been steadily
increasing; either of which could change the percent.
Q And the same is true of Parham and Kramer?
A We have not identified these as problems.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I'd like to look at my
notes a minute so I can finish with this witness.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q You stated earlier, Mr. Parsons, in the deposition
isn't it true that you never expected white pupils to transfer
to Negro schools?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 331
A That's correct.
Q And do you have any -- did you have any plan,
therefore, to have the Negro schools phased out under freedom
of choice?
A Under freedom of choice?
Q Yes.
A Well, we discussed, of course, in the plan submitt:
phasing out Mann High School, as you know.
Q But you did not expect freedom of choice to phase
v out any particular Negro school, according to the figures you
have before you?
A Ultimately, perhaps, but not for next year.
Q Did you ever -- after the Oregon team submitted it:;
report to the district — consult with those experts to help
them interpret to the community the report and its findings
after you presented it to the board?
A Yes, we invited them to come to Little Rock and
make the presentation in a public meeting, which they did.
Q I mean after that, did you ask them to coroe back
and help you in trying to use that plan to bring about a
unitary school system?
A No, we did not.
Q After the Oregon team came and submitted the report
to the district, did you consider the Oregon team's obligation
to the district to be fulfilled?
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 332
A Yes.
Q Is there any particular reason you can think of
why the Oregon team accelerated the completion of the study?
As I understand, it was supposed to have been completed in
about a year and a half, but they did so within about a year;
isn't that true?
A If this were the case, Mr. Walker, I do not recall
that they completed the study ahead of the contractual date.
MR. WALKER: Thank you, Mr. Parsons.
MR. FRIDAY: That all.
THE COURT: Let me ask you a few questions, Mr.
Parsons.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: There has been a good deal of discussii
about the zoning, which is illustrated on the map we have beei
looking at.
What are the possible methods of eliminating
freedom of choice, and I know one of them is geographic zoning
J&at are the other possible methods, and I'm not now referring
to the possession or lack of possession of money. What are
the other possible ways?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, if we are going to
disregard money completely, there are numerous possibilities.
One would certainly be a zoning plan that was
couched in terms of creating as much desegregation as could
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 333
possibly be created without regard whatsoever to the distance
'that a pupil lived from the building that he would be requirec
to attend.
Another would be the creation of attendance zones,
but not make the zone of one district coterminous with the zon<
of another district; have a no-mans land or buffer zone in
between and the people who lived in between would have freedom
of choice to go either to the right or to the left, or to the
north or to the south.
Certainly, the educational park concept, which was
so popular a couple of years ago -- I think lost some of its
appeal perhaps — would be another means of at least desegre
gating the high school grades perhaps. I don’t think it
would work at the elementary level under any figment of the
*C' '•* •
imagination, and probably not at the junior high level.
There would be the possibility of pairing, of
—i- <
course, which you have mentioned and which has been mentioned
by many experts in the field of pairing schools, and by
• <■; . .
this, of course, we mean teaching, shall I say, grades one,
ttwo and three in one building, and grades four, five and six
in another building to purposefully achieve some desegregation
that you would not otherwise achieve.
There surely may be others, but these are just
some waysj but I think that there are peculiarities within
organizational patterns and community patterns within every
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>* community that forces a community to develop its own plan
within the purview of that particular community, the peculiar
conditions that may exist in that particular community.
THE COURT: Mr. Friday, in his statement and
perhaps in your testimony, although I do not recall it,
mentioned that some of the alternatives would have to be
submitted to the vote of the people. By that I understood
■fa***IK .
him to mean that those methods would require additional money,
THE WITNESS: That is x*hat he meant, I'm sure.
THE COURT: Which of these methods would require
financial resources more than are now available to the distric
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, there Is no plan of
desegregation — I hope this statement Is correct; I mean for
it to be -- there is no plan of desegregation that could be
effectively put into effect in Little Rock other than a
geographic zoning plan that could be done without additional
dollars.
Now, we could -- I didn't mention a moment ago --
we could create a ju: ior high school where the Stephens School
i3. This would implement desegregation. We could create a
big elementary school where West Side Junior High School is.
This would implement desegregation. We could build a new
elementary school east of Main and close Parham and Kramer
and Bush and possibly Pfeifer. This would implement desegre
gation. There are dollar marks attached to all of these
CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 334
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons
projects, of course.
335
COURT: Roughly, and I know it would be very
rough, are we talking in millions of dollars or less?
TIIE WITNESS: Oh, yes, we are talking in millions,
but not talking in multiple millions. We think the Stephens
area could be converted to a junior high school; West Side
««cmild be remodeled into an elementary school, permitting the
closing down of some schools that are now predominantly white
and all-Negro; that a new building could be built in the
vicinity of MacArthur Park, enabling us to close down three
or four buildings in that area of the city for probably four
or four and a half million dollars. These things would cost
about four or four and a half million dollars, we think.
THE COURT: Of course, any additional finances
would have to be provided after a vote of approval by the
people.
*$r-' •» i
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Now, geographical zoning, isn't that
the same system Little Rock and practically every other publii
school had prior to 1954?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, that's correct, sir.
THE COURT: The only difference being that under
the plan we have been discussing her,. , white and colored pupil
would attend the same school within that zone.
THE WITNESS: Yes, the big differential in this
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CROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 336
plan and the original plan about which you spoke, is that
there were overlapping attendance zones in the south prior to
i.. 1954, where one zone would overlap another and the Negro
people who lived in this area would attend the school desig
nated Negro and the white pupils would attend the school
designated white. These are non-overlapping attendance zones,
of course.
THE COURT: If I remember correctly, when you had
geographical attendance zones - as I say, I think you had
them everywhere or nearly everywhere -- they were compulsory.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: There are certain exceptions if I
remember right, that if a family moved from one section of the
city to another and perhaps he was in the fifth grade and
only needed one more year to complete grammar school, of if
he were in a certain high school or junior high school and
only needed one year to complete, he was allowed to complete
the school he had formerly attended.
THE WITNESS: Very often that would be the case.
t
THE COURT: With some exceptions, not based on
race, of course.
THE WITNESS: Right.
THE COURT: And perhaps if you had transportation
problems in a family - - o f course, families do move from
one section of the city to another.
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REDIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons 337
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: I believe that is all. Thank you, Mr.
Parsons.
MR. FRIDAY: Let me ask one question on that, Your
Honor. I want to be sure -- I had Mr. Parsons search back
in the records for this very point. I think we hit on it,
- but not as clearly as you have now developed it.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q There has been a lot of testimony about "strip
zoning . This means to me you deliberately go from one side
of town to the other to get some racial composition that woulc
be satisfactory.
A Yes.
Q It has also been developed -- and I think Mr.
Walker brought this out — that this imposes a burden on
children who lived some distance away. The burden is more
severe if their financial situation is restricted; is this
^correct:?
A This would be correct unless there were a school-
sponsored system of transportation and this wouldn't remove
all the inconveniences.
Q This would involve money, would it not?
A Yes.
Q This is one aspect I think was not developed by
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RECROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 338
the Court. If you go to this -- which you dT3 in the Parsons
Plan -- that is why you went to a reconmendation of a school-
financed transportation system; is that correct?
A That's correct.
MR. FRIDAY: All right.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, would it be necessary for the district
to abandon any schools now that you have in operation because
of their condition if you were to have a comprehensive
desegregation plan?
THE COURT: Wait just a moment. "Comprehensive",
what do you mean?
MR. WALKER: Any kind of a zone plan.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Isn't it true a lot of the buildings or several of
the buildings you now have are outmoded and not sufficient
for teaching todays youngsters?
THE COURT: And would ordinarily be replaced in thi
near future?
BY MR. WALKER:
Q And would ordinarily be replaced in the future?
A The answer, of course, is yes to that. We would
like to get rid of a lot of our old buildings.
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RECROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 339
Q Isn't It really what the Oregon Report recommended
in a number of instances?
A In several instances, yes, they did.
Q Isn't it true a district-wide transportation systei
would cost no more -- would cost the district -- I'm not
^.talking about the State of Arkansas as such, but the district
for its percentage of the total cost, no more, at the highest
figure that we can take, than $500 thousand per year?
A This Is probably a very reasonable estimate in tha
if you multiply 25,000 pupils by $50.00 per pupil, you would
1&S. 3
get a figure in excess of that, but surely not every pupil
in the system lives two miles from school, of course. I thins
this is a reasonable figure.
Q I see. It is a liberal figure, would not you say?
A Yes, reasonably liberal.
Q Isn't it true that the school district necessarily
has to replace a number of the buildings it now uses within
the next two to three years?
A We hope this will be possible; they need to be
replaced, yes.
Q What percentage of the total transportation cost
does the State of Arkansas provide?
A Approximately — I'm trying to remember -- I say
and hear, I think, but approximately fifty percent or a littl
less than fifty or maybe it's sixty percent. Do I say sixty
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RECROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 340
here John?
Q Yes.
A If so, I say sixty percent. I do have a comment
I want to make about that.
Q Let me ask before you make the corauent.
THE COURT: Let him make the comment before he
<*■* leaves the subject.
THE WITNESS: The comment I would make is that
we are never sure we do not know, of course -- we are
never sure the State of Arkansas will finance a transportation
system. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't, a transportat:.
system that was deliverately set up to require pupils to be
transported by schools nearer their homes to go to schools
farther away from their homes. I say we do not know whether
they would participate in thr financing of a transportation
system of that type or not. There has been no past history
to indicate that they would or would not.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Doesn't that past history show they permit bussing
and pay for pupils in the western part of the city and getting
them from that part of the city to the eastern part of the cit
A That's correct. I would agree with that.
MR. WALKER: That is all.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, the record may be deficier
in this regard and as I recall, it is.
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RECROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 341
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Have you testified, and I do not recall It, Mr.
’v — •
Parsons, as to the present availability of money to the district
for any of these purposes under your present millage and funds
coming in? Do you have any extra money?
A We do not have any unallocated bond money available
in the Little Rock district, and we are operating under the
tightest most restrictive current operating budget that we have
experienced, at least during the last seven years.
THE COURT: He used the word "bond".
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Let's go from bond to operating that would come in.
I understand on "bond", when you added "and we are operating
under the tightest operating budget", does that mean you have
no available funds for operating or bussing?
A We have no available funds; we have a contingency
fund in our budget for next year of $135,000.00. We normally
try to carry a contingency fund of two and one half percent
of the total budget. 135,000 represents slightly less than
one percent.
Q Again for the record, if you coma in with a plan
that does require money by December 1, would it be possible
to get implementation by way of a submission to the elec tors ,
and if they can be persuaded to go with you, get additional
k.
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EXAMINATION - Parsons 342
money, then, for next year? *
A Yes.
Q For the record, when is the time you have to mate
up and give notice of your budget?
A We have to make up and give notice sixty days before
the election.
Q That means, then — I have forgotten the exact date:
about mid-January —
A Not January, but about the 15th to the 20th —
'*»****"■ Q — about mid-March you have the election?
A Right.
MR. FRIDAY: Thank you.
FURTHER RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, isn't it true you have the money now
which has been earmarked by previous bond issues for certain
schools not started?
A Yes, this is true.
Q How much money do you have there?
A I do not know.
$ Isn't it true some of that money was for a school
to be located on Twelfth Street?
A That's right.
Q That is in addition to the $135,000.00?
A Yes.
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RECROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 343
Q Isn't it true you also have money allocated for a
tract at Booker Junior High School that hasn't been spent?
A Yes, but committed, a portion of it.
Q Have you let a contract with regard to the construei
of that?
A
-» .« V
Actually, not let the contract, but one is prepared
and will be presented to the board this month.
, Q It hasn't been let, though, has it?
A No.
Q How much is that?
A About $180,000.00.
Q In addition to the 135,000?
A Yes.
Q Now, do you have any other construction you anticip,
where you haven't had contracts let?
A We are, of course, in the process now of complete
replacing the flood damage that occurred to Horace Mann High
School, putting a new floor in the gymnasium and new concrete
under that floor.
Q Let's see, that's 400,000 and 135,000 and 185,000.
That's approximately$700,000.00 that you do have, so that the
district could divert those funds, could it not, to provide
a system-wide transportation system.
A No.
Q Why could not they?
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RECROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 344
A Most of the funds that you have identified have been
funds that were voted to construct school buildings. Therefore
they are earmarked funds.
Q Are you required by Arkansas law to use those funds
in the manner in which you repres ited to the public that they
would be used?
A You are required by law, and I certainly think our
attorney would be in a better position to answer that than I.
THE COURT: That is what his bond indenture says,
Mr. Walker.
THE WITNESS: You are required to use the funds in
the general way you say they will be used, for the construction
of school buildings.
Q Do you recall this question having come up in
previous board meetings?
A Oh, yes.
Q Do you recall whether you gave the same answer then
as you are giving now?
A Yes, I did.
Q Do you know whether the present board president or
previous bn :d president gave the same answer?
A I don’t think there is any doubt. I think the
confusion cor as from whether or not a specific project of
building four clar. rooms on a building, or building four
classrooms on another building — you do not have to do that.
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RECROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 345
But, you do have to use the funds for construction purposes.
Q How much money per year does the district spend for
athletics?
A I do not know.
Q Would it be more than $100,000.00?
A Oh, goodness, no.
Q Would it be as much as $50,000.00?
A You are talking about out of tax money?
Q No. What is the district’s budget for athletics?
A The athletic program is a self-supporting program.
Q That's not my question. What is the budget?
A We have no budget. It’s not included in the school
district’s budget at all.
Q You do not figure, each year, as a part of the
district's operating expenses?
A No.
Q Are there funds that could not be diverted from
one purpose that you are now pursuing to this particular purpos
A Teacher salaries?
Q No.
A No.
Q There are no other funds available?
A No, no other funds available.
Q But wouldn't it possible to -- in the event that the
electorate refused another bond issue as they have done the
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last two times -- to change your budget in such a way as to
RECROSS EXAMINATION - Parsons 346
provide whatever financial resources were needed to implement
a fair and equitable desegregation plan, regardless of whether
it's bussing or some other plan.
A Mr. Walker, since you made the estimate of a cost
of $500,000.00 I would have to say no. There is no way in the
world to squeeze the Little Rock School District budget and
get $500,000.00 left over.
Q Couldn't you divert funds next year — change the
priorities in order to achieve integration if it became
necessary to divert funds?
A It would depend entirely upon the cost of integratio
I do not know what it cost now, because we do not have a plan.
Q During the year, have you prepared a plan other
than the Parsons Plan?
A No.
MR. FRIDAY: That is all, Mr. Parsons.
~ik ** <-
THE COURT: You may step down.
(Witness excused.)
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Parsons - Adverse 347
THE COURT: You may proceed, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: I would like to call Mr. Parsons for
our case.
THE COURT: All right.
Thereupon,
FLOYD W. PARSONS
having been called by counsel for plaintiffs as an adverse
witness, and having previously been sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, in order to provide a system-wide
transportation system, you have made some projections about
costs. Is that true?
A Yes.
Q And they are contained in your Parsons Plan on
pages 45, 46, and 47. Is that true?
A I'm sure that's true.
Q Do you stand by those cost estimates today?
A Except for the possibility of some additional
costs in terms of inflation that may have occurred.
Q Do you also stand by your proposition at that time
that these transportation costs would be annual and recurrent?
A Oh, yes.
Q And are not to be funded by a bond issue?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 348
A Yes, but now I was talking about tfJTose costs.
Q I understand.
A All right.
MR. WALKER: That is all we want with Mr. Parsons,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. You may step down, Mr.
Parsons.
(Witness excused.)
MR, WALKER: I would like to call Dr. Keith
Goldhammer.
Thereupon,
DR. KEITH GOLDHAMMER
having been called as a witness for the plaintiffs, and having
been first duly sworn was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Will you state your name, your address and your
occupation, please?
A My name is Keith Goldhammer; and my address is
2929 Highland Wake, Corvallis, Oregon; and my'occupation is
as Dean of the School of Education, Oregon State University.
Q How long have you been Dean of Oregon State
University, Dr. Goldhammer?
A Since September 1, 1967.
Q I see. And before then where were you employed?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - CoIdhammer 349
A I was employed at the University of Oregon in
Eugene, Oregon. I was Associate Dean of the School of
Education as my terminal position there. Prior to that, I
had been the Director of the Bureau of Educational Research.
Q I see. Dr. Goldhammer, what is your educational
preparation?
A I have my Bachelor's Degree from Reed College in
Portland, and my Master's Degree from the University of Oregor,
and my Ph. D. from the University of Oregon.
Q What is the area of your Ph. D. concentration?
A Educational administration, research and sociology.
Q I see. Would you describe what your duties have
been as Associate Dean at the University of Oregon, and what
they are now at Oregon State University?
A Let me start at the latter end.
Oregon State University, I administer the School of
Education. I suppose I am the equivalent to the School of
Education that Mr. Parsons is to the Little Rock School Distric
At the University of Oregon, my area of responsibifi
as Associate Dean was as the person in charge of all the
research and developmental programs for the School of Education
at the University of Oregon.
Q I see. Now, in your position as Dean and
Associate Dean, did you have any responsibilities for training
teachers or administrators or educators i
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 350
A Well, both as a professor of education and as
responsible for the Bureau of Educational Research and
Associate Dean, I had a number of doctoral candidates. I
worked exclusively on a doctoral level, and I would suspect
that i have trained or helped to train or been advisor for
sixty or seventy people who are working now in various capacitie
with doctorates in education.
Q When did you get your Doctor's degree, and would
you state your places of employment from that point on?
A I had my Doctor's degree in 1954; and from 1954
to 1956, I was an Assistant Professor of Education at
Stanford University; in 1956, I returned on the staff of the
University of Oregon, but was sent here to Little Rock in
charge of a contract research team under the Ford Foundation
that was studying the Arkansas Experiment Teacher Education.
I was then with the University of Oregon from 1956 to my leaving
last September, 1967.
Q I see. Dr. Goldhammer, have you any publications
that have been published since you became a Ph. D.?
A Numerous ones.
Q Would you site --
A I live in "publisher parish operation."
Q Would you state the names of any books you may
have written.
A I have a book on the school board. I have a
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhatmner 351
monograph that was most recently published otT^issues and
problems in educational administration. I have two case
studies on community conflict relative to educational issues
called, 'The Jackson County Story" and "Jackson County Revisite
I have a chapter in the most recent publication in
a book published under a grant from the U. S. Office of Educati
entitled, "Designing Education for the Future", and numerous
reports and consultation reports with school districts in
various parts of the country and so forth. I think it comes
to four, five or six pages of stuff that will pass into
oblivion as I do.
Q Will you describe what your duties were as
Director of Educational Research, Director of the Bureau
of Educational Research at the School of Education of the
University of Oregon?
A As Director of the Bureau of Educational Research,
my duties were to administer the program of the school services
and direct the school syrveys for which the School of Educatic:
of the University of Oregon had contracted.
My responsibilities, primarily, were to undertake t'r
direction and supervision of the field work that was done in
accordance with such contracts as we had with the Little Rock
School District.
Q I see.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we could go on and on
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 352
in order to qualify this witness as an expert.
THE COURT: He is qualified, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: Thank you.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, Dr. Goldhammer, would you state to the Court
whether you have at any time been employed by the Little Rock
School District to engage in a research project; and, if so,
would you describe the report that you were commissioned to
undertake.
A Just as a technical matter, the Little Rock School
District contracted with the University of Oregon to prepare
a report which I believe has been entered into evidence here.
Our charge in brief was to prepare a complete report that
would indicate a feasible plan for the desegregation of the
Little Rock Public Schools based upon the soundest possible
educational principles.
Q I see. I hand you here an item which I ask you
to identify.
A Yes. That is — without reading it, this is the --
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basically, the prospectus for the study which we presented
to the school board prior to the time that the school board
entered into a contract with us. I should say for the record
that at the time Dr. Bumbarger was the Acting Director of
the Bureau of Educational Research; and he and I, I believe,
came and presented this to the board.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 353
MR. WALKER: Since it's been idenTOied by this
witness, Your Honor, I would like to ask that it be marked
as Plaintiff's Exhibit 1.
1HE COURT: It will be rtceived.
(Whereupon, the document heretofore
referred to was marked Plaintiff's
Exhibit No. 1 for identification,
and was received in evidence.)
MR. WALKER: With plaintiffs retaining the
opportunity to withdraw this and make a copy --
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WALKER: -- in view of the fact it comes from
the appellee's brief in the Court of Appeals.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, for the Judge and for the benefit of the
Court, would you basically set out what your commission was,
Dr. Goldhammer?
A I think, in very brief form, the commission is
stated at page one of the report, which says 'that "This study
was initiated through action of the local school board and
school administrators with the evolved purpose of expressing
the current status of Little Rock's effort to move from a dual
to an integraged school system".
It was intended that the study provide measures of
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldharomer 354
the current situation along several dimensions concerning
problems to be met and resolved and supply a set of recommen
dations detailing a program for further school board and
community activities.
Q Now, what was the timetable -- what was the, yes,
timetable by which the Oregon team was to complete its report':'
A Well, initially, before the contract was n e g o t i a t e d
we had asked for a rather considerable period of time; but in
discussion and consultation with the board and administration,
they felt that they were under some urgency to prepare a repoi
so that they could meet the demand, I b e l i e v e , of t h e U n i t e d
States Court of Appeals.
Under those circumstances, we agreed that I would
devote some of my time from my leave from the University of
Oregon to the report so that we could meet some of the require
ments that they had insofar as the Federal Court orders under
which they were operating at that time.
Q I see. What was your understanding of the urgency
of the situation at that time?
A I believe that as it now comes to mind that the
district was under court order- to present a plan for the
complete desegregation of the schools. I don't remember the
specific aspects of the court order, but I believe they were
under court order to present a plan for the complete desegre
gation of the schools which involved both faculty and the
del
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Gcldhammer
student desegregation.
355
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Q You were advised by the administrative staff
that this was the requirement?
A Basically, I think that is so, yes. I should
say that our initial negotiations were conducted both with
the supeiintendent, and possibly Mr. Fair, and the members of
the school board. I believe Mr. Friday was present at one or
two of those sessions.
Q I see. Would you tell me how the study was
undertaken and what persons were involved, primarily?
A Well, the study was undertaken under agreement
that is stipulated that there would be certain information
provided to us through the local school district; and we
received excellent cooperation from Mr. Parsons and members
of the school board and members of the staff, all the doors
necessary for us to acquire the information without anybody
attempting to bias the information in any way was presented
to us.
We then put together a team from the University of
which Dr. Bumbarger was the Acting Director and I was the
Co-Director which included Max Abbott, who is the Director --
currently is Director of the Center for the Advance Study of
Educational Administration at the University of Oregon; Dr.
Milford Cottrell, who is a post-doctoral student at the Univei
of Oregon in Educational Administration; Dr. John Howard, who
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 356
was a sociologist; Mr. Robert Keith, who is Asfl°ociate
Director of Urban Planning in the Bureau of Municipal Research
and Political Scientists; Dr. Gregory Maltby, who was a pro
fessor in the Bureau of Educational Research; and then there
were, I think, about nine or ten, probably nine graduate
assistants who had had experience as superintendents, principal
educational planners, who then assisted us with the collection
of data.
After the design had been established and approved
by the school board, Mr. Parsons' office prepared certain
basic statistical information for us; and members of the team
made various trips to Little Rock to collect information, to
interview people, to make surveys of the school building, all
the school buildings, in accordance with the plan, to study the
problems related to the residential characteristics of the
community, and so forth. It was a rather intensive period of
data collection for the report.
I believe we also made one or two progress reports
to the board to give them some indication of the directions
in which we were going.
Q Now, Dr. Goldhammer, did you and your team make any
findings with reference to whether the Little Rock School
System was still a dual school system?
A Yes. Of course, our basic finding in that respect
was that the Little Rock schools, although they had made very
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 357
remarkable progress between 1956, when I had lived here for
six or seven months, and 1967 or 1966 when most of our data
pertained to, nevertheless the dual system of schools has
still prevailed; and with the rate of enrollment growth in the
community, the progress, of course, had been much slower than
would possibly have been anticipated.
Basically, by any standards or criteria that would
be acceptable in the profession for judging a unified or unitar
dual school system, this was and still is, I presume a dual
system.
Q Did you make any fin d in g as to the working - - the
working e ffe c t iv e n e s s o f the freedom o f ch oice plan then in
e f f e c t ?
A W e l l , the freedom o f ch oice p la n , o f c o u rse , was
not w orking e f f e c t i v e ly fo r reasons th at p re v io u sly have been
s ta te d in the cou rts h e r e .
Number one, i t was a one-way road w ith some Negro
c h ild r e n ch oosin g what had been a l l -w h it e s c h o o ls , but no
w h ite c h ild re n s e le c t in g a ll-N e g r o sch ools fo r a tten d a n ce .
And a l s o , there are problems as have' been d isc u sse d
a s s o c ia t e d , fo r in sta n c e , w ith H a ll High S ch ool where the a t
tendance boundaries had been s e t in such a fa sh io n th a t i t
became overcrowded.
In my e stim a tio n and in the e stim a tio n o f our team ,
and c o n sid e rin g the growth in enrollm ent in the L i t t l e Rock
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhamraer 358
schools under freedom of choice, the attainment of the goal
would possibly never have been realized.
Q Now, did you and your team examine the extent of
faculty desegregation within the schools up until that time?
A Yes. And, of course, at the time the faculty de
segregation had been very modest and it was then, while we
were in the process of collecting data, that endeavors were
being made to accelerate the amount of faculty desegregation.
One of the things we were asked particularly to study was the
problems associated with the desegregation of the faculty in
the school system.
Q Before proceeding any further, what was your under
standing of the term or the definition "unitary school system"
as you understood it?
A Well, a unitary school system would have — would
be a system that provided as equal educational opportunities
for all of the children in the district as would be possible
and would take into consideration, as Mr. Parsons said a few
moments ago, some of the unique characteristics of the com
munity that would necessitate overcoming constraints that
existed in the community to the development of those educa
tional opportunities, equal educational opportunities.
In a community such as Little Rock where, obviously,
the pattern of school segregation now is the result of
residential segregation, a unitary school system would in-
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DIRECT EXAMINATION GoIdhammer 359
evitably, from a professional standpoint, meaiTto me the de
segregation of the schools.
I presume your question, too, would relate to what
would be professional standards as to the degree to which de
segregation has been accomplished.
THE COURT: I think he asked the definition of
"unitary school system."
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Let me put it a different way.
How would you define "desegregation?"
A In a desegregated school system, I think it would
have to be defined in terms of attempting to duplicate, insofar
as possible, the relationship of majority and minority groups
to the same extent they are represented in the general com
munity; and the research that's been done on this shows, of
course, there are various patterns that have been provided in
the country, various percentage relationships established.
The problem is to keep the accumulation of minority
groups from becoming too much, from what we talk about as
reaching the tipping point — that is, the point at which the
presence of the minority group within a school system pro
duces re-segregation and also preventing it from being main
tained at so low a level that the benefit of the integrated
school system would not be achieved.
Q What are the general recognized aims of the American
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhatnmer 360
Educational System, Doctor?
A Well, American education lias a very unique role in
the history of education in the world, and that is the
American Educational System was also developed in response to
certain social needs and requirements, dating back to the first
revolution that occurred in American education when Benjamin
Franklin created the academy, which was the forerunner of the
American high school and also the initiation of concern in
public education or vocational education.
It was a response that indicated that educationally
we had to provide the manpower necessary for the emerging
mercantile economy in this country.
American education accreted responsibilities and
objectives in the period, for instance, following the Civil
War when the country was characterized by a very vast and
rapid influx of immigrants, particularly from Europe when the
American school system was called upon to socialize the immi
grants and help them become a part of the mainstream of
American culture.
Since 1911, there has been several official national
statements relative to the objectives of American education
in society, and these very generally encompassed, I think,
five areas. One is certainly the American school system
should teach the fundamentals and tools and knowledge that --
the fundamental tools and knowledge and learning that an in-
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 361
dividual needs for successful participation in our culture.
Secondly, the American public school system has had the unique
function of helping individuals become socially efficient and
effective as individuals, and there has been no responsible
statement of objectives that has eliminated that aspect of
its social efficiency.
Thirdly, the American public school system has been
called upon to help American individuals become economically
productive individuals. As President Johnson has said, "to
help them become taxpayers rather than just tax eaters."
One of the unique components of the American system,
again, has been our tremendous concern for the individual
self-realization, the responsibility of the individual or of
the school system for helping every individual attain
maximum of his potential for service both to himself and to
our society.
Last of all — and this roay be debatable, but not to
me -- I believe the American public school system has also had
a significant responsibility for helping individuals become
morally responsible. Probably the greatest challenge to
American education today is in this area of helping individuals
become morally responsible, because a democratic society de
pends upon the morally responsi le population.
I could go on and on, as you recognize, but in a nut
shell, this is how I would answer that particular question.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 362
Q You did include the term "self-conceit" at one point.
A Self-realization, yes. Under the word "self-
realization," I think we would have to put in our discussion
the terminology of helping an individual develop an adequate
self-concept or self-image, helping an individual understand
his potential and have the motivations, the celf-evaluation
that enables him to achieve up to the limits of his potential,
that is correct.
Q Is there any evidence to establish a position on
whether a person who finds himself in an all-Negro school
can fully realize his full potential, using the theory you
have just mentioned?
A Well, recognizing the fact that we are going to
deal now in gross in regard to groups of people rather than
individuals, the research would tend to shew that the primary
reason for the courts' insistence upon the desegregation of
the schools is the psychological impact segregation makes upon
the individual.
The Supreme Court, in its famous 1954 decision, of
course, as is well known by everybody here, used this as the
primary factor in its desegregation order in the Brown case.
The Court, incidentally, according to my knowledge, had the
testimony of quite a number of eminent social scientists who
presented the evidence to the Court of the impact of segregc--
tion upon the self-image of the child.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - GoIdhammer 363
Some of the research and evidence has shown that we
can take young children out of segregated schools, young
children of the minority group, and place them in a situation
where, on the one hand, they are challenged by members of the
majority group and enter into competition with them for achieve
ment. But, on the other hand, they have a sufficient number
of their own minority groups in that school system, too, so
that they have a base of, let us say, communion within the
school system or within the school situation.
Those children will very rapidly develop a much
more favorable self-image for their achievement and toward
realization of their individual goals and accomplishments.
So one of the things the research shows is that
insofar as the desegregated schools in a pattern I have sug
gested, one of the impacts of a desegregated school is to
create a climate that greatly enhances the potentiality of
the minority youngster, making the most of his opportunities
in an educational situation.
Q Would you have an opinion as to whether there are
any educational detriments which accrue as a result of de
segregation or integration to white pupils?
A That's a difficult question to answer. The evidence
-- the evidence would not indicate it, but we don't know how
good the evidence is. This is one of the problems in that
particular area.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhamraer 364
The evidence would indicate that the majority group
youngsters tend to benefit, too. Some recent studies have
been done in New York City. The evidence is that the majority
group youngsters tend to develop more realistic interpretation
of the characteristics of the minority group, recognition of
them as fellow human beings, and to look upon individual
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members as individual human beings rather than lumping them
into a group and stereotyping them as being members of a
group.
There are those, of course, who are the social
philosophers of the day who maintain, of course, that it helps
to realise some of the basic ideals of the so-called American
dream. My suspicion is that this will present to both majority
and minority group members -- there are some who will respond
negatively to the challenge, and this must be taken into con
sideration as some individuals are injured by challenges; but
the vast majority of the individuals are, of course, human
nature being what it is, stimulated and encouraged in challenge
and respond very favorably to it.
Q Dr. Goldhammer, would you state what recommendation
the Oregon team made to bring about a unitary school system
in the Little Rock School District? In view of the fact we
have the finding of the report in the record, I would like
you to be as succinct as possible in stating what you propose
to bring about.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - GoIdhammer 365
A Yes. I would hate to read this literary masterpiece
for anybody, but there are a whole series of recommendations.
If I may, I'd like to go back to the statement His
Honor asked Mr. Parsons, because the first factor we had to
consider in making our recommendations was the whole range of
potential plans for the desegregation of education that could
be operative in the Little Rock schools, and again we used the
same criterion here in our discussion of our team that you
used, to look at the various plans from the point of view of
operation of the plan without regard for any monetary sums
that might be attached to them.
We came to the conclusion that in a — I wouldn't
list anything I think, basically — I’m not sure Mr. Parsons
indicated bussing as one of the plans, but it was implied in
various other plans he employed.
We came to the conclusion, first and foremost of
all — and this was the biggest problem and substantial ob
stacle we had to overcome — that in a residentially segregated
community such as Little Rock, there was no one plan that
would do the job completely for the community.
Therefore, the task we are faced with was to attempt
to come up with what would be a reasonable combination of
plans that would accomplish the job. Basically, our first
plan was to introduce the concept of the educational park and
to consider the entire community as an educational park --
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - CoIdhammer 366
incidentally, this is basically the same concept under which
the freedom of choice plan operates. This is, as Mr. Parsons
explained, you eliminate school district boundaries around
attendance units and consider the youngster should have avail
able to him, insofar as the facilities permit, any school
within the community, and this was the basic beginning point
of the concept.
Then, of course, we had to face the problem of re-
segregation. If you look at this as an educational park, how
can you develop a system of desegregation that will be a
permanent system of desegregation, rather than having to go
through all of these fights again and again and again in the
years that lie ahead.
We came to the conclusion that the only way you
could present re-segregation within a community such as Little
Rock was, first of all, to create a single high school. This
wasn't entirely feasible, so we had to go to the next plan,
and that was of re-structuring grade levels and developing a
single eleventh and twelfth grade high school unit, enlarging
the ninth and tenth grade units, create larger middle schools
and, in turn, create both larger elementary schools and a
pairing of elementary schools in order to effect the total
desegregation of the coiurrunity.
So that in our plan, that x*as a concept ■ f the
educational park, the r -structuring of grades, the pairing
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DIRECT EXAMINATIl i - Goldhaamer 367
of schools, the creation of larger schools and primarily
concentrating them toward the center of the city rather than
on the periphery of the city.
May 1 also add that we believed on the basis we
collected for our report, that it would be impossible to ac
complish our plan without some district-provided bussing for
reasons that already have been discussed here today.
Q Dr. Goldhar/oer, it has been stated earlier today
that your plan would have required an expenditure of $10
million dollars and more in order to be implemented. Uould
you react to that, please.
A Well, the total plan that we presented would un
doubtedly have cost $10 million dollars or more, but not all
of that would be the cost of desegregation. As was brought
out earlier in the day, Little Rock has quite a number of
buildings that we would characterize as obsolescent. I be
lieve the school board has charaterised as obsolescent school
structure, school buildings, that go back quite some period of
time and are no longer functional educational laboratories.
For instance, you can contrast the difference betweer
the school plant in Hall High School, which was built some
twelve years ago, and it’s still a modern functional up-to-date
school building in which you can engage in modern, contemporary
educational programs, and Central High School, the first con-
' lstruction at which was 1946, which is more than forty years
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 368
old, and was built on a concept of school architecture no
longer flexible.
I would suspect remodeling of the school very ex
pensive and the possibility of further additions to the
school because of site and so forth is particularly nil.
You have the whole range of conditions that exist
within the Little Rock School District and the vast amount of
money that is encompassed in our plan should be done for the
school district for the proper environmental conditions for
the education of the children of this community, regardless
of whether the school district is desegregated or not.
My contention would be that to update its program,
Little Rock needs to do most of that $10 million dollars, if
they weren’t under court order to desegregate.
Q I see. Would you have an opinion as to the basic
cost that it would have taken to have implemented the Oregon
report if the district used all of the facilities and did not
abandon 3;aciliti«3 and create new structures.
A X think the implicit assumption, Mr. Walker, of
your question is wrong because I don’t think you could have
dona it entirely that way. But if you had done it that way,
I would have to give you a very uneducated guess at this time
because I would suspect it could have been done for a couple
hundred thousand dollars, but I'm not sure.
Q What would that amount have been used for?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Go Id ha trine r 369
A Well, you would have had to -- you would have to
well, I'll take it back. It would not have been that at all.
One of the further items Mr. Parsons did not mention
that we have in our plan is the massive program of conpensa-
tory education, which is also one of the techniques that woulu
have to be used to relieve some of the educational disabilities
of segregated schools. I would say that it would probably
come closer to a half a million dollars. A large part of that
money, I would assume, would be used in the employment of a
variety of educational specialists to work with both the
majority and the minority groups of children to relieve any
educational deficiencies that would be needed, and which,
understandably, the Little Rock School District should try to
provide the resources, again.A large percentage of it would
go for the compensatory education program.
Some of the money would go to a massive in-service
education and re-orientation programs for the teachers, be
cause without such a program, I do not think that the desegre
gation of the faculties would meet with the degree of success
that we would want it to meet, and some of the money would go
for the bussing of school children.
Q Now, what is your understanding of the term
"compensatory education?"
A well, it's a bad term, as most pedagoguese is bad.
What it means is that we compensate for educational deficiencic
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Coldhammer 370
and if you want to be vary candid about how the terra got
started in education, it did not get started in educational,
really, until after the Supreme Court decision in 1954, and
there was a recognition that we hod created educational, in
equality in our school system, and it x*jas time for the pro
fessional educators to develop programs to compensate for
those deficiencies and deficits that had been created.
Incidentally, it was developed primarily in re
sponse to educational problems of Negro children where the
greatest amount of educational deficiency, in regard to the
educational achievement, seemed to exist. So it was a term
that was developed in recognition of the fact that some
youngsters in our society were not getting the same kind of
educational opportunity as others of their peers.
Q Did you find that to be the case in Little Rock?
A Basically, we did not make a detailed study that
would enable me to scientifically and professionally answer
your question.
On the basis of the research, however, and on the
basis of conditions that we observed and the basis of some
data that was provided, we would have to say that there was
an indication of a problem related to the segregation of the
schools in Little Rock.
Q Did you find any indication of a high attrition rate
among Negro students, a higher rate than you did white students
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - GoIdhammer 371
A Well, if you will look at — if you will look at
Table 3 on page 9 of our report, you will see that there is a
consistent pattern here of the Negro to white ratio of stu
dents enrolled in the schools declining as you advance
through the school system.
For instance, in the first grade in 1966, there is
a forty-sixty ratio. In the sixth grade there is a thirty-thre
si::ty-seven ratio. For the junior high schools, there is a
thirty-one-sixty-nine ratio, but for all of the senior high
schools, there is a twenty-six-seventy-four ratio; or con
trasting the twelfth grade with the first grade, the twelfth
grade had a ratio of twenty-three to seventy-seven, whereas
the first grade had a ratio 0f forty to sixty.
Of course, you can see the pattern of falling off
more rapidly.
THE COURT: Is that peculiar to Little Rock, Doctor?
THE WITNESS: No, sir, it is not peculiar to Little
Rock. It is characteristic of school systems where a minority
group exists in a segregated type of school situation, ^o,
for instance, we saw this pattern in Southern California
where the M e x ic a n —American children had been educationally
o -
segregated and, of course, it exists even on a social economi<-
segregation scale so that children coming from schoolo th~t
are segregated for the lowest social economic group tend to
have the same more rapid attrition rate.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Go Id ha toner 372
THE COURT: 7 - at sometimes follows i/^sidential
pattern?
TIIE WITNESS: Yes, very definitely.
EY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, Dr. GoIdhammer, I hand you a document which
has been previously introduced as Defendant's Exhibit No. 9
which is a report to the board of directors of Little Rock
from Mr. Floyd W. Parsons, Superintendent of Schools, on the
subject to the Oregon report, and ask you if you have seen
this document before?
A No, sir, I have not.
Q Would you peruse it?
A Obviously, I can't take your time to read this in
detail, but I can see the general -- yes.
Q Have you been provided with the depositions that
were taken of Mr. Floyd Parsons?
A Yes, sir.
Q And have you had a chance to study those depositions?
A Yes, I have.
Q And have you been provided x*;ith copies of the
depositions of the other bcord members that were taken?
A I have been provided with depositions of Mr. William
R. Meeks, Mr. Daniel Woods, and Mr. Jimmy Leon Jenkins, Mr.
Fowler. I have seen the deposition of Mr. Drummond.
Q Have you had an opportunity to study those documents?
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DIRECT EXAM IT TAT I GIT - Goldhammer 373
A Yes.
Q Have you been provided with a copy of the transcript
of yesterday's proceedings?
A Yes.
Q And have you had a chance to study those documents?
A I had a chance to read them. Because it was rather
late last night when I finished reading them, I am not sure I
was studying them.
Q Are you familiar with the basic objections contained
in Mr. Parsons' report which is before you in Defendant's
Exhibit 9?
A I presume it is the basic objection that he made in
his deposition.
Q Yes.
A Without stating --
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, let me point out for the
record — I think this is important — these are discovery
depositions. I did no questioning. They are not in evidence.
I do not know what he is going to ask about the depositions,
but I want to make this point.
THE COURT: I understand, but I don't think it is
necessary for the purpose he's asking.
MR. WALKER: These depositions were taken in part to
provide the expert witness with an opportunity to know some of
the facts about the Little Rock School System to date.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 374
THE COURT: It's all right.
MR. FRIDAY: That's the first I have heard of that,
Your Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q All right, would you state your understanding of the
basic objections that Mr. Parsons has to the Oregon plan?
A I believe that Mr. Parsons' basic objection was based
upon, number one, the re-structuring of the grade levels;
number two, the size of the senior high school in particular,
and the rapidity with which we recommended the school facilities
be eliminated and new schools constructed, and also the cost
for the district going immediately into a district-provided
transportation system.
I believe, too, that there was -- that he disputed
the pairing of Minn and Metropolitan High Schools. Yes, he --
he did not agree with the basic concept of the educational
park and particularly as it included the abandonment of the
neighborhood school concept.
Q Doctor, would you react to each one of those?
A May I say for the record he also had Some nice
things to say about the report.
Q All right, would you react to each of those ob
jections?
THE COURT: I believe we could find a better *7ord
than "react."
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DIRECT KXAMIii .TlOl'I - Goldh.'immer 375
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: Some of the matters, I would think in
Mr. Parsons' analysis, would be matters that would be not very
fundamental to the basic concept of the report, and if I may,
I will skip over them.
I think the question of whether we would use the
solution he proposed in his report for the problem of
Metropolitan-Mann, or ours, is a matter of extreme profession:. 1
differences or on various technicalities, I should say, and
I would not look upon that as fundamental and I wouldn't have
much to say on that.
I think the basic point of disagreement that I would
have with Mr. Parsons' reaction to our report is the disagree
ment over the continuation of the neighborhood school concept.
Let me say that from my perspective, the neighborhood school
concept is not an educational concept at all. It's an ad
ministrative concept. It is a plan for distributing children
among the schools of a community and, obviously, in a com
munity the size of Little Rock or in larger communities, and
even in many of the smaller communities, you need to have a
number of attendance centers, and you have to have some plan
for the distribution of children among attendance centers.
So I would say that in a — and if we are going to accomplish
desegregation — and this is one of our primary objectives, as
the courts have stated -- then, of course, I think in a
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DIRECT
situation like Little Rock, we cannot continue^to build a
program for the distribution of children around the neighbor
hood school concept.
Now what do you lose educationally? I have spent a
good bxt of time and had members of my staff trying to dis
cover what is it you would lose by abolishing the neighbor
hood school concept. There is nothing to lose educationally.
You would lose something as far as convenience of parents is
concerned, and as far as --
I'lH. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I am going to make my
record one more time. I want to object to any testimony on
the issue at this time of the relative merits of the neighbor
hood school concept. We are not standing at this time for or
against that concept; and on the issues before the Court, we
are not prepared to prolong this by putting on testimony back
and forth as to the relative merits concerning available al
ternatives immediately before the district for September, 1968.
We think this is not relative.
If we come back in December, and embrace a permanent
plan, we may embrace exactly what he says or we may not do
this.
I just want to make my record, and I won't bother
him any more.
THE COURT: I understand.
KR. FRIDAY: We object to all of this on the grounds
S)IAM 11IATI Oil - Go Id hammer 376
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 377
of irrelevancy, incompetency and immateriality at this time.
THE COURT: I understand.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I would like to state that
there are several plans before the Court, and the Court of
Appeals has stated in rso uncertain terms that all plans avail
able have to be considered, and the burden is on the district
to show why they can not use one particular plan as over againsft
another.
One of the plans that has been presented is the
Oregon plan. Some of the objections to that are that it would
abolish the neighborhood school concept, and this is what we
are going on not-?.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Continue, Doctor.
A Let me associate with this the issue of the ex
ceptionally large high school. I would also hold that by takir,
the contemporary and educational and administrative technology
for dealing with large groups of children, we can actually ac
complish more educationally in the large high school than the
small school.
Our studies, when I was at Stanford, of large high
schools in the San Francisco Bay area indicated that educations
disadvantages, the restrictions of programs, started to mount
rather rapidly as schools became smaller than twelve hundred
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DIRLCT LXAlilbiATION - Goldhammer 378
pupils.
We saw the optimum under normal circumstances for a
school in that area of somev7here between eighteen hundred and
twenty-two hundred youngsters was very hard to determine, but
we also saw some schools larger than that which had made in
teresting administrative adaptations and we were able to
maximize both the advantages which Mr. Parsons stated — cor
rectly, I think -- of the small school plus the advantages of
size, and the youngsters whose individual needs could be at
tended to as the result of the larger numbers.
Let me give you an example. In a three-year high
school, we could expect about one per cent of the youngsters
to be eligible for, say, the equivalent of a second year of
college language during their senior year. If you had twelve
hundred youngsters in a high school you could expect that you
would have about twelve youngsters who were able to take that
advanced course.
Incidentally, we have students today going into
college — and I'm sure you do in the Little Rock schools.
With twelve youngsters, this would be' economically
debatable as to whether or not you could defend the program.
If you had six hundred youngsters, you would only have six
such youngsters on the average, and this would make it highly
debatable. If you had three thousand youngsters, you would
have thirty youngsters or with four thousand youngsters, you
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would have forty youngsters, which would make it possible to
offer several languages, probably, at this level.
What I'm saying is that by the creative administrative
deployment of resources in a large high school, you can accom
plish the end of providing a much broader and richer educational
program if you use this concept of the advanced educational
park. At the same time, you can provide the school within the
school concept, the breaking down of the enrollment within the
school, in such a fashion as to preserve the students' closer
identity with a particular faculty that would be associated
with their educational program, with the counseling and sub
ordinate administrative personnel.
Strangely enough, even though you can provide more
resources in that type of a plan, there are other kinds of
savings that do not make the total cost of the high school
increase.
Q My concern is Little Rock. What would it do to the
football team? Would you react to that?
THE COURT: Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: Strike that question, Your Honor, but
that is a major concern, I think.
THE WITNESS: There is a point, Your Honor, that
might be valuable, and that is that some of the larger high
schools such as I have been describing, if a school, for
instance, of four thousand youngsters were divided into three
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhawmer 379
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internal schools, that school might have three varsity teams
and might also encourage the larger and better rounded intra
m u r a l program.
TKE COURT: Excuse me, Doctor.
Mr. Walker, I am enjoying the Doctor's testimony,
but I am coming back to this point raised by Mr. Friday.
There is no possibility of going to this plan by this
September, and that's what we are talking about, isn't it?
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, there is another plan befor:
the Court, hopefully, or will be shortly, which I think can
be implemented by the Court.
THE COURT: Well, as I say, this is very fine, and
a man of Dr. Goldhammer's reputation, I enjoy hearing, but I
am thinking about what we are spending our energies on.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I am trying to lay the
frame work for what has already been introduced, a plan which
we submit that would cost the district between approximately
( jY
two and three hundred thousand dollars to implement this year.
It is based upon a combination of the Oregon plan and the
Parsons plan, and it has already been introduced by Mr. Friday,
I think, as a part of the materials considered by the inte
gration committee. It was prepared by a number of Negro
citizens of the city and presented to the board of directors
at a special committee meeting that they had during, I think,
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer
June of this year.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhaouner 381
I have consulted with Dr. Goldhammer about this,
and in view of the fact that it parallels the Oregon plan,
I would like to go into it.
headed -
THE COURT: All right.
This is the plan presented by John Walker, it's
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I want it stipulated that
at least a dozen Negro people participated in the preparation
of this plan, and they represent organizations which range
from the Council of Human Relations to the Urban League and
the N.A.A.C.P. mid the Community Action Program.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, Doctor, you have had an opportunity -- before
we get to that plan, Your Honor, let's go to their plan.
You have seen the geographic attendance area plan
prepared by the district, haven't you?
A Yes, I have.
Q Would you state to the Court whether, in your judgtnen
as an educator, that is a plan for desegregation?
A No. Of course, it's a plan for establishing attendar.
boundaries for school attendance units. It would not meet the
criteria we think would be professionally acceptable for
declaring this a unitary school system. It's a standard school
attendance boundary map that we customarily use to distribute
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 362
to parents to indicate to them which school their children
will attend.
You will notice, and I'm sorry I can't tell you the
exact areas designated, but this one is the junior high school
area --
MR. WALKER: 1 think that is the senior high school
Dr. Goldhammer.
THE WITNESS: I think this is the junior high schoc
area in front of me, is it notV
THE COURT: The junior high?
THE WITNESS: Yes. In the junior high school area,
Henderson Junior High School area, we have only two Negro
youngsters and 880 white. Contrast that with the Booker
Junior High School area, which would have 705 Negroes and
136 whites, or the Central High area -- no, the West Side
Junior High, I'm sorry, which would have 398 Negro and 471
white. Forest Heights area, which would have no Negroes and
908 white. Obviously, it does not meet the criteria of
acceptability in regard to the criteria for desegregation,
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which I stated earlier.
I would say that from the perusal that I did of
this plan last night, I would have to come to the conclusion t
we would really not improve upon the present freedom of choice
system, as I understand it, by going into this system by itsel
I'd like to reiterate the one statement I made that
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 383
I think It's quite fundamental for this Court to consider,
from an educational point of view, and that is that there is
no one single technique that has been experimented with in
this country that I would find to do the job acceptably in
Little Rock.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you mean by that you would have to employ or
deploy several alternatives simultaneously In order to achieve
the result?
A That's right. For instance, if you pair Pulaski
Heights and West Side, you would and I say put three gradef
in Pulaski Heights and three alternate grades in West Side —
you would accomplish,then, the purpose through pairing. You
could still have these attendance boundaries eliminating the
one in between. You could pair those two and come much close’*
to the problem of eliminating the dual school system; but I
would be of the opinion — and my geography fails me a little
bit here as to knowing the distances that might be involved.
In order not to work a hardship on the children,
and in order to pair the schools, you might have to do some
bussing at the school district expense. So, you would be
creating in this hypothetical situation three techniques;
one, the creation of attendance boundaries since all of the
children of, say, grade nine would attend either the Pulaski
Heights or West Side Junior High School attendance areas.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 384
You would be creating a pairing of the two schools by virtue
of the fact you would have some grades in the one, and the
other grades for that age level in the other; and then you
would be using some bussing as well in order to relieve severe
hardship upon the children involved. There would be three
techniques that might be involved to be able to accomplish
the objectives of the previous Court orders in this instance.
Q Now, I shew you the senior high school map, which
is Defendant’s Exhibit 14.
A Well, you have basically the same problem. There
is soma improvement, incidentally, here in that you do have a
larger concentration of white youngsters in Mann High School,
and I believe -- I ’m not sure, are there any white students in
Mann High School at the present time*?
Q I think the testimony will show there are not.
A I think you would improve the situation from the
number of white students assigned to Mann High School under
this plan, but you would still have only three youngsters in
Hall High School, and I see you have designated Park View
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High School here as a senior high school, and there would be
only 56 Negro youngsters in Park View. So, you would still
not meet the criteria we would say would be necessary.
Q While we are on Park View, would you state whether
or not the Oregon team ever recommended to the Little Reck
School District that that school be opened s a high school
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - GoIdhammer 385
or state really what recommendations you did make.
a I think that basically Mr. Parsons stated the
situation, that we had been asked to review the situation to
determine whether or not it would make It impossible for us
to develop a satisfactory plan for the complete desegregation
of the schools, and the board was reluctant to proceed to
acceptance of the contract for construction until we had
reviewed it.
And, our statement was that the situation, as far
as housing,was becoming extremely critical in the Little Rock
District. To delay would merely augment the critical nature
c£ tne situation. We did not have time in our study to try to
review the selection of additional sites, and as we reviewed
various alternatives for our plan that were In progress, we
came to the conclusion that we could fit it in as some type
of school unit that would be dequately desegregated, and, I
believe, it was not to be designated at that time — and I
think I recall Mr. Parsons saying — as any particular grade
level, merely a secondary school facility.
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THE COURT: Just as a school.
THE WITNESS: Just as a school, yes.
So, substantially, recalling that area in the confc :
Dr.Baumbarger and I had with the board, substantially what has
been stated in the record Is my perception of the situation.
BY MR. WALKER:
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhamraer 386
Q I show you what is Defendant's Exhibit 12, Dr.
Goldhammer, and ask if you have seen that document before?
A Yes.
Q Would you state whether that breakdown on attendan s
lines represents a substantial change over the present situat e ox
if any?
A Well, my off-the-cuff and rather hasty comparison
would indicate no. I have not had a chance to give it the
most detailed of considerations because for one thing, I
recognize at the beginning this, again, did not meet the
criteria for a complete desegregation of the elementary school3
I would also note that this bases the plan upon the
continuation of a number of obsolescent buildings, and every
effort should be made in the interest of all the youngsters
who attend the buildings to eliminate them and replace them
as soon as possible.
THE COURT: Of course, one of our problems, Doctor,
is that you are rightfully interested in what should be done
for the long term, but we are confronted here primarily today
twith what we should do week after next. Obviously, they are
going to have to use the buildings they have now.
THE WITNESS: I recognize that situation, Your Honor
THE COURT: And that is unfortunate, but that is
what we do have to do
THE WITNESS: I would hope that in the presentation
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of a complete plan — I realize in the time involved this
hasn’t been able to be accomplished — but if this were the
plan that the Court approved, that the stages for development
of the total echo 1 system into a more complete plan of
elimination of the dual school system would be presented with
the acceptance of this plan.
THE COURT: Of course, the Court is confronted with
this, Doctor: the school board wishes to have until December
1st to formulate a more permanent plan, but the plaintiffs
are insisting we do something by September 1st. That is the
problem that confronts the Court.
THE WITNESS: That, sir, is your problem.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Would you look at that map again, Dr. Baumberger?
A Dr. Qoidhammer.
Q All right, I’m sorry.
Would you state whether you have an opinion as to
whether if those lines had been drawn in a different manner,
a better racial balance could have been achieved in the centra'
city schools?
A Well, just looking at the map — of course, in our
study of the situation we had a huge map in our office— unfor
tunately,we couldn’t transport it to Little Rock although we
(JIco^33gd it —— in which we had located just about ever^
youngster as to his grade level and whether he belonged
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldharamer 387
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 388
to tue minority or majority group of the community; and we
attempted by this pin map to see the arrangements that would
oe made insofar as the individual attendance boundaries of
youngsters were concerned.
I would hate to have to say without seeing the
distribution of youngsters.
Q All right, Dr. Goldhummer, let me just refer to the
central city schools which are listed on your map. Let me
refer specifically to Stephens School. Do you see it there?
A Yes, sir.
Q White students 83, Negro students 365?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you notife that there are within reasonable
proximity of Stephens some six or seven elementary schools?
A Yes.
Q And that at lease four of those schools have over
whelmingly white majorities?
A Yes.
Q I'm referring to --
tMR. WALKER: Are you following me, Your Honor?
Stephens, and the schools I'm referring to are Oakhurst,
Garland, Lee, and FairPark, within reasonable proximity of
Stephens.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Doctor, do you have an opinion as to whether the
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - GoIdhammer 309
students in Stephens School -- or the lines could have been
drawn at S ̂ ephens so as to place a larger number of Negro
pupils into the surrounding white schools?
A From my experience in that area, my feeling would
be i_fiac it prooably could have been done. I want to qualify
that only because oi the fact I don't have the exact residenti i
distribution of the youngsters in that area.
This is one reason why, incidentally, in our report
we went to the larger school concept, because it was perfectlv
possible you could have one school or two schools paired in
this area that would actually do the complete job of desegre
gation, using primarily the base of existing facilities and
adding on to them to accommodate any increase in enrollment.
So, my suspicion from recalling the type of data
and using it as a hypothetical situation, yes, it could have
been done.
Q I see. Is there any educational reason to justify ••
well, is there any educational philosophy that would cause one
to stay away from larger elementary schools as opposed --
THE COURT: Hr. talker, we can’t enlarge those
schools between now and September 1st. Let’s decide what kind
of hearing we are having here.
If you want to give them until December 1st, then
we will get. into the long-term business. Do you see the
dilemma we are in, Hr. Walker?
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - GoIdhammer 390
IiR. W A L K E R : Your Honor, let me sort of state our
position, Maybe we aren't as far apart as it seems. Sometimes
it appears that way, and it should not.
THE COURi: The Doctor is in an unfortunate positicn
here.
RR. WALKER: Your Honor, our position -- I never
stated this, and I want the Court to know -- is that this
district has had more than ample time --
THE COURT: I would agree with you on that, Mr.
Walker.
MR. WALKER: The second thing is that we have
attempted to cooperate with the defendants in trying to
arrive at a constitutional plan for a long period of time.
The third thing is that we are primarily concerned
about the education that Negro pupils, and all pupils for that
matter, get in this school system. We want them to have the
best education possible.
The fourth thing, though, is that we want the
district to come up with a plan which will have lasting long-
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time benefits for all pupils that will, once and for all, clear
up this situation, and get us out of litigation.
Now, we are not taking the position in this
litigation that we have to have all of the now.
THE COURT: How much of it do you want now?
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we are in favor of a plan
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 391
which, for this year, brings about some different racial
balance than we now have in each one of the schools. We would
like to have the district in a position where it would come
up with a plan in .September whereby the Negro and white pupils
are disbursed on some other basis than what you have.
Now, our position, further, is that if you come up
with this plan now -- the one that they have -- it’s going to
only accelerate the day when we have de facto segregation
residentially.
So, what we want for September -- and I'm speaking
from a legal point of view now -- is complete faculty desegre
gation and disbursal of white pupils and Negro pupils through
out the central city schools in the western part of the city
on some different basis than this. It need not be on a 70-30
basis for now, if ever; but we do want the district — if you
do require them to do that -- to come forth within a reasonable
period of time — like two months -- with a plan which brings
about a unitary school system,and which also leaves the level
of education at least where it is for all pupils.
THE COURT: If we are going by September 1st, I
think December 1st would be perfectly reasonable, if we are
going by September 1st. That would give everybody plenty of
tii e to litigate. As you know, we have hearings pretty quick
on these things.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I call your attention to
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhnmmer 392
the fact that --
THE COURT: I wouldn't want to order this faculty
desegregated without knowing where we are going on the pupil.
I think it's harder, actually, to stick the pupils in different
slots than it is overnight to reorganize the teaching situation
I'm trying to just lay it on the table.
MR. WALKER: I want to do the same thing. The
district has clearly had ample time --
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, nobody would agree with you
more than I would. You know I have been in this case longer
than anybody in this room?
MR. WALKER: We want to take the position of
reasonableness here. We believe that the board is really --
and I'm serious about this -- bordering on contempt. We are
not pursuing --
THE COURT: Don't you think they think I mean busine
now?
MR. WALKER: I hope so, Your Honor.
What we would prefer the Court to do, in view of
the needs of the teachers, and the needs of the pupils, is
order substantial faculty desegregation this year; something
less than 70-30 perhaps, but at least half and half in each
one of the schools, and a little more equitable balance in
these schools which are from west of University — east of
University on.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhananer 393
The Stephens School ought not be*, used this year at
all as a Negro school. Those pupils could be disbursed throu; Li-
out the system, or some other alternative plan v;hereby the pupil
are disbursed could be devised by the school distr-ct within a
reasonable period of time; and the same would be true with
regard to the junior high schools, using South West and Pulaski
Heights.
Those are items in the plan we have presented to the
board, which they have not even discussed as a board at a boarc
meeting. That is where we are, and perh ps the Court could
give us some indication now with what is here, just as to where
we are going. We are not anxious to appeal at this stage an
adverse decision, nor do we anticipate an adverse decision, but
we would like to be in a position whereby we could have a permit
solution to the problems before the end of 1968 that is known t c
all people.
TIIE COURT: If it's humanly possible — and I live
and occupy this post -- you are going to have some kind of
permanent solution before the next year, before September of
1969, but I don’t knew what we can do by September 1.
The only thing I can do to be frank with you, is _o
order this zoning in between now and September 1st. The teach*
some more fundamental problems, and X would hesita^a C - \
that.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, the problem identified her*
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Coldhammer 394
is that the white teachers who are in majoriir^ are the problem,
The Negro teachers do not mind being assigned to white schools,
Now, if the white teachers could be assured there would be
racial balance in each one of the schools, faculty desegregntio
wouldn't present a problem.
THE COURT: I know, but I can't assure them that,
Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: I think, Your Honor, an equitable plan,
according to the criteria that Dr. Goldhammer has set out,
could assure them of that; and I would hope that the Court
would set some guidelines and permit the parties to brief the
issue of what is required by the Supreme Court decisions, takir
into account the latest case of the Fourth Circuit that I
cited yesterday.
I would certainly think we would be in a position
whereby we would know what the ultimate objective is to be,
and then move on, at least within a reasonably short period of
time, to getting that.
THE COURT: Of course, that is one reason I did that
this morning. That is my present view on what the law is, Mr.
Walker.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, in all deference to the
Court, I think that the law x^ould have to be — that aspect of
it would have to be determined after briefing by us; and
perhaps it might be helpful in the meantime for us to have
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DIRECT EXAMir'TTO'I - Coldhammer 395
certified t«‘- the Court of Appeal*} for a decision, just an
interpretation as to really what is required by the Supreme
Court decisions.
TKE COURT: I don't think it's in quite that --
I would hesitate to do that in the interim of this case. No,
I don't think that would bo the thins to do.
MR. WALKER: With this witness, Your Honor, could
I suggest we maybe take a five minute recess so that I could
try to wind up where we are going.
THE COURT: I'm trying to be as helpful as I can,
Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: Well, I understand that, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Let's make it ten minutes, and if counsc
wishes to discuss it with the Court, they may come in chambers.
(A brief recess was taken.)
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DIRiiCi EXAMINATION - GoIdhammer 396
T h E C O U R T : Y o u m a y p r o c e e d , g e n t l e m e n .
B Y MR . W A L K E R :
Q D r . G o l u h a m m e r , d o y o u h a v e a n o p i n i o n b a s e d o n
t h e d a t a t h a t I h a v e p r e s e n t e d to y o u a n d t h e p l a n s o f t h e
d i s t r i c t w h e t h e r i t w o u l d b e p o s s i b l e a t t h i s l a t e s t a g e in
t h e y e a r f o r t h e s c h o o l d i s t r i c t to b r i n g a b o u t b e t t e r r a c i a l
b a l a n c e i n f a c u l t y a s s i g n m e n t s f o r t h e c u r r e n t c o m i n g sciiool
y e a r , a n d i f s o w h a t is t h a t o p i n i o n ?
A W e l l , o n t h e b a s i s o f t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h e r e p o r t
t h a t - - o u r r e p o r t , a n d I ' m r e f e r r i n g to t a b l e 11 o n p a g e 55,
w h e r e — a n d M r . F o w l e r r e f e r r e d t o t h a t t h i s m o r n i n g , w e
as3:ed a s c i e n t i f i c s a m p l e of t e a c h e r s t o a c c e p t o n e o f t w o
s t a t e m e n t s , a n d t h e y h a d to a c c e p t o n e or t h e o t h e r so t h a t
t h e y c o u l d c h o o s e b e t w e e n -- t h e y h a d t o c h o o s e b e t w e e n all
w h i t e a n d a l l N e g r o w h i c h w o u l d t h e y c h o o s e , t h e y h a d to choosc-
b e t w e e n h i g h l y m o t i v a t e d a l l N e g r o c h i l d r e n a n a h i g h l y motivat.. .
a l l w h i t e c h i l d r e n , a n d a v e r a g e m o t i v a t e d a l l w h i t e c h i l d r e n ,
a l l w h i t e c h i l d r e n , a n d b o t h w h i t e a n d N e g r o c h i l d r e n , a n a
b o t h w h i t e a n d N e g r o c h i l d r e n , a n d a l l N e g r o c h i l u r e n . N o w ,
t h e i n t e r e s t i n g t h i n g is t h a t as f a r as t h e s a m p l i n g o f w h i t e
t e a c h e r s is c o n c e r n e d , w h i c h I t h i n k w o u l d b e t n e p r o b l e m a r e a
c o n c e r n e d h e r e , w h e n t h e y h a d to c h o o s e b e t w e e n a l l w h i t e
c h i l d r e n a n d a l l N e g r o c h i l d r e n , 9 7 . 5 % c h o s e a l l w h i t e c h i l d r e n ,
w h e n t h e y h a d to c h o o s e b e t w e e n h i g h l y m o t i v a t e d a l l N e g r o
c h i l d r e n a n d a v e r a g e m o t i v a t e d a l l w h i t e c h i l d r e n , 4j.6is clioso
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhatnmer
h i g h l y m o t i v a t e d a l l N e g r o c h i l d r e n . W h e n t h e y h a d to c h o o s e
b e t w e e n a l l w h i t e c h i l d r e n a n a b o t h w h i t e a n a « e g r o c n i l u r e n ,
4 7.2t, c h o s e b o t h w h i t e a n d N e g r o c h i l d r e n , a n d w h e n t h e y h a u
to c n o o s e b e t w e e n b o t h w h i t e a n a N e g r o c h i l d r e n a n a a l l N e g r o
c h i l d r e n , 9 7 . 5 % c h o s e b o t h w h i t e a n u N e g r o c h i l d r e n .
Q W o u l d y o u i n t e r p r e t tnat, Dr. G o l d h a m m e r , w h a t
d o e s t h i s m e a n ?
A W e l l , to m e , a n d y o u c a n g i v e v a r i o u s i n t e r p r e t a
t i o n s , b u t t o m e it m e a n t t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e r e l u c t a n c e o n
t h e p a r t o f t h e w h i t e t e a c h e r s t o t e a c h — o n t h e m a i n g r o u p
of w h i t e t e a c h e r s , to t e a c h a l l N e g r o c h i l d r e n , b u t t h a t at
l e a s t 50 % o f t h e w h i t e t e a c h e r s , o r a p p r o x i m a t e l y 5 0 % o f t h e
w h i t e t e a c h e r s , w e r e w e l l p r e p a r e d t o t e a c h in a p r o p e r m i x o:
v/hites a n d N e g r o c h i l d r e n . W e t a l k e d , b o t h f o r m a l l y a n d i n
f o r m a l l y , w i t h t e a c h e r s . I n c i d e n t a l l y , i n 1 9 5 6 - 5 7 , w h i c h is
q u i t e a\-:hile a g o , a n d p r o b a b l y p r i m a r i l y a d i f f e r e n t g r o u p of
t e a c h e r s , I s p e n t a c o n s i d e r a b l e a m o u n t of t i m e i n t e r v i e w i n g
t e a c h e r s i n t h e L i t t l e R o c k s c h o o l s y s t e m . L i t t l e r o c k
t e a c h e r s a r e h i g h l y p r o f e s s i o n a l p e o p l e , a n d I h a v e n o q u e s -
t
t i o n i n m y m i n d t h a t if t h i s C o u r t o r d e r s t h e d e s e g r e g a t i o n
o f t h e f a c u l t y , t h e t e a c h e r s w i l l r e s p o n d i n a p r o f e s s i o n a l
f a s h i o n . T h e y w i l l be n o d i f f e r e n t t h a n a n y o t n e r p r o f e s s i o n
a l g r o u p . If a p h y s i c i a n is c a l l e d to a n e m e r g e n c y w a r d a n d
h e h a s t o t r e a t a p a t i e n t , h i s p r o f e s s i o n a l r e s p o n s i b i l i t y
i m p e l s h i m to t r e a t a p a t i e n t . I ' m s u r e , Y o u r H o n o r , t h a t if
397
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y o u a s s i g n a l a w y e r t o a c a s e , y o u e x p e c t t h a t l a w y e r to g o
t h a t j o b p r o f e s s i o n a l l y , r e g a r d l e s s of t h e r a c e o f t h e c l i e n t ,
a n d I'in t h o r o u g h l y c o n v i n c e d t h a t t h e t e a c h e r s in L i t t l e Roc);
a r e a n e x t r e m e l y f i n e , p r o f e s s i o n a l l y - o r i e n t e d g r o u p o f
t e a c h e r s , a n d t h e y w i l l r e s p o n d to t h e r e q u i r e m e n t s o f t h i s
C o u r t i n t h e m a n n e r in w h i c h ihey w o u l d b e p r o f e s s i o n a l l y e x
p e c t e d o f t h e n t o r e s p o n d . I t h i n k t h e r e s h o u l d b e a s s o c i a t e c
w i t h t h a t , h o w e v e r , s o m e o p p o r t u n i t i e s f o r t h e m t o u p g r a d e
t h e i r c o m p e t e n c i e s in d e a l i n g w i t h a m i x of c h i l d r e n c o m i n g
f r o m v a r i o u s g r o u p s , a n d t h a t w o u l d b e t h e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y of
t h e s c h o o l s y s t e m . Nov.7, t o s a y it i n o n e w o r d , M r . W a l k e r ,
o n e s e n t e n c e , m y a n s w e r to y o u w o u l d b e t h a t m y o p i n i o n is
t h a t a c t i n g u n d e r c o u r t o r d e r , t h e t e a c h e r s in L i t t l e R o c k
w o u l d r e s p o n d e x t r e m e l y f a v o r a b l y to t h e e x i g e n c i e s a n d
m a k i n g t h e n e c e s s a r y a d j u s t m e n t s .
Q D r . G o l d h a m m e r , I h a v e p r e v i o u s l y g i v e n y o u a
p l a n w h i c h w a s p r e s e n t e d t o t h e b o a r d b y m e —
A Y e s , sir, I b e l i e v e I h a v e t h a t p l a n now.
Q H a v e y o u h a d a n o p p o r t u n i t y t o s t u d y t h a t p l a n ?
t
A Y e s , I h a v e b e e n a b l e to s t u d y i t s o m e w h a t i n
c o m p a r i s o n w i t h o u r p l a n a n d s o m e w h a t i n c o m p a r i s o n w i t h th e
p l a n t h a t M r . P a r s o n s p r e s e n t e d .
Q W o u l d y o u s t a t e w h e t h e r t h i s p l a n w o u l d b r i n g
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhanuaer 398
a b o u t m o r e e f f e c t i v e t o t a l d e s e g r e g a t i o n in t h e L i t t l e R o c k
s c h o o l s y s t e m t h a n w o u l d t h e p l a n t h a t h a d b e e n p r e p a x e d a r m
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DIRECT EXAMINATION Coldhai oner 399
p r e s e n t e d t o t h e C o u r t b y t h e s c h o o l d i s t r i c t ?
A Y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g t o t h i s z o n i n g p l a n ?
Q Z o n i n g p l a n .
A Y e s , i t w o u l d b e a m u c h s u p e r i o r p l a n u n d e r t h e
c r i t e r i a t h a t I s u g g e s t e d . It w o u l d b e m o r e c o m p l e t e , s u p e r i o r
t o t h e f r e e d o m of c h o i c e p l a n . T h e r e a r e s o m e a d m i n i s t r a t i v e
b o n e s t h a t w o u l d h a v e to b e w o r k e d o u t i n it, b u t t h i s w o u l d
b e a n t i c i p a t e d o b v i o u s l y , w o u l d h a v e to b e r e v i e w e d f r o m t h a t
s t a n d p o i n t i n s o m e c a r e , b u t t h e p l a n is b a s i c a l l y a m o d i f i
c a t i o n of b o t h t h e s c h o o l p a r k c o n c e p t of o u r p l a n h a s s o m e
b e a r i n g i n it, a n d a l s o h a s s o m e a s p e c t s o f t h e c o m p l e x p l a n
t h a t w a s p r e s e n t e d i n Mr. P a r s o n s ' r e p o r t .
Q N o w , w o u l d y o u s t a t e w h e t h e r t h e r e a r e a n y e d u
c a t i o n a l — w h e t h e r t h i s p r o b l e m , t h i s p a r t i c u l a r p l a n is
d e f i c i e n t f r o m a n e d u c a t i o n a l p o i n t of v i e w i n a n y r e s p e c t ,
a n d , i f so, w o u l d y o u s t a t e what, i t is?
A T h e r e is o n e g l a r i n g d e f i c i e n c y i n it, a n a t h i s
is t h e r o t a t i o n c o n c e p t . I h a v e to u n d e r s t a n d it b e t t e r r e a l l y
t o a n a l y z e it, b u t I w o u l d s a y t h a t t h e r o t a t i o n c o n c e p t h e r e
b e t w e e n t h e f o u r quaax*ants is -- w o u l d n o t b e a c c e p t a b le to
m e a s a n e d u c a t o r , b u t t h a t i s n ' t a n e s s e n t i a l p a r t of t h e p i - -
T h e r e a r e o t h e r v/ays in w h i c h t h e sarnie o b j e c t i v e s c o u l d b e
a c h i e v e d . E d u c a t i o n a l l y , t h i s is p r i m a r i l y a n a d m i n i s t r a t i v e
plafi f n o r d e r t o a c h i e v e c e r t a i n a d m i n i s t r a t i v e r e s u l t s , as is
t h e P a r s o n s r e p o r t , a n d as is t h e s o - c a l l e d O r e g o n r e p o r t , s o
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DIRECT EXAKIR/TION - GoIdhammer 400
b a s i c a l l y y o u c o u l d a c h i e v e t h e o b j e c t i v e s i n m y e s t i m a t i o n
y o u c o u l d a c h i e v e t h e o b j e c t i v e s of c r e a t i n g u n i t a r y s c h o o l
s y s t e m a t t h e s a m e t i m e t h a t y o u p r o v i d e f o r a d d e d e d u c a t i o n a l
b e n e f i t s f o r t h e c h i l d r e n .
Q D o y o u t h i n k , Dr. G o l d h a m m e r , w h a t o p i n i o n , Dr.
G o l d h a m m e r , as t o w h e t h e r t h i s p l a n t h a t w e a r e d i s c u s s i n g no\
o r m o d i f i c a t i o n o f t h i s p l a n c o u l d b e p r e p a r e d a n d i m p l e m e n t e d
b y S e p t e m b e r , 1 9 6 8 , i n a l a r g e p a r t , a n d if so, u n d e r w h a t
c o n d i t i o n s ? I h a d in m i n d w h e t h e r o r n o t o n e o f t h o s e c o n
d i t i o n s w o u l d i n c l u d e p e r h a p s d e f e r r i n g t h e o p e n i n g o f s c h o o l
f o r s e v e r a l w e e k s ?
A Y e s , sir, i t m i g h t b e n e c e s s a r y b e c a u s e I t h i n k
t h a t — l e t m e s t a t e o n e t h i n g t h a t h a s b e e n s t a t e d e a r l i e r
h e r e i n C o u r t , t h e r e w o u l d b e d i s r u p t i o n t o t h e s c h o o l
p r o g r a m . T h e r e h a s b e e n d i s r u p t i o n o r d e f i c i e n c i e s I b e l i e v e
a s a r e s u l t o f t h e c o n t i n u a n c e o f d u a l s c h o o l s y s t e m , a n d t h i s
w o u l d b e o n e o f t h e f a c t o r s t a k e n i n t o c o n s i d e r a t i o n . I ' m
s u r e t h a t e v e r y p o s s i b l e r e s o u r c e in t h e c e n t r a l o f f i c e , a n d
a n y c o m p u t e r f a c i l i t i e s t h a t a r e a v a i l a b l e t o t h e s c h o o l d i s
t r i c t w o u l d h a v e t o b e b u r n t o v e r t i m e a n d i n o r d e r t o g e t t h e
p l a n o n t h e r o a d b y a r e a s o n a b l e d a t e i n S e p t e m b e r , b u t if
t h e — i n t h e o p i n i o n o f t h e C o u r t t h e m a t t e r is of s u c h
u r g e n c y t h e a n s w e r o b v i o u s l y is y e s , w e c a n d o a n y t h i n g s t h a t
w e h a v e t o d o r e m a r k a b l y a d m i n i s t r a t i v e l y w h e n w e a r e p r e s s e a
t o d o t h e job. I w o u l d s a y t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e s o m e
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - GoIdhammer A01
c o n s e q u e n c e s o f m o v i n g t h i s r a p i d l y , a n d t h e s e c o n s e q u e n c e s
h a v e t o b e u n d e r s t o o d a t t h e b e g i n n i n g . It w o u l d n o t b e
e n t i r e l y s m o o t h r u n n i n g , b u t f r o m t h e s t a n d p o i n t of c o u l d i t
b e d o n e a d m i n i s t r a t i v e l y if w e w e r e g i v e n s o m e e x t r a l e e w a y ,
m a y b e a c o u p l e o f w e e k s , y e s , i n m y e : t i m a t i o n i t c o u l d b e
d o n e . I t is a m a t t e r o f w h e t h e r o r n o t y o u w a n t t o h a v e t h e
c o n s e q u e n c e s o f m o v i n g t h a t r a p i d l y .
Q W o u l d y o u i d e n t i f y s o m e of t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s ?
A W e l l , t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s w o u l d b e t h a t w e w o u l d hav'
t o o b v i o u s l y m a k e s o m e s h i f t s i n a s s i g n m e n t s a g a i n s t i n d i v i d
u a l ' s d e s i r e s , a n d t h e r e w o u l d b e s o m e d i s l o c a t i o n t h e r e , a n d
t h e r e w o u l d a l s o b e s o m e e n t h u s i a s m . O n e o f t h e t h i n g s a s a n
a d m i n i s t r a t o r I l e a r n e d a l o n g t i m e a g o is t o m a k e s o m e u n
e x p e c t e d s h i f t s i n o r d e r t o s t i r u p the o r g a n i z a t i o n a n d g e t
p e o p l e o n t h e i r t o e s . O f c o u r s e , I ' m i n a d i f f e r e n t p o s i t i o n ,
Y o u r H o n o r , b e c a u s e I ' m o n t e n u r e i n m y p o s i t i o n .
T H E C O U R T : S o a m I.
T H E W I T N E S S : B u t m y f e e l i n g is t h a t t h e r e w o u l d
b e s o m e c o m m u n i t y r o u g h s p o t s , a n u t h e r e w o u l d h a v e t o b e
s o m e e f f o r t m a d e a n d e x t r a e x e r t i o n o n t h e p a r t o f a d m i n i s t r a
t o r s i n o r d e r t o a n s w e r s o m e o f t h e q u e s t i o n s t h a t w o u l d a r i s e
i n t h e c o m m u n i t y . I w o u l d s u s p e c t t h e r e w o u l d h a v e t o b e
s o m e e m e r g e n c y u s e s of s o m e f u n d s t h a t w o u l d h a v e t o b e d i
v e r t e d f r o m o t h e r p l a n s a n d o t h e r p u r p o s e s t o t h e i m p l e
m e n t a t i o n o f t h i s p l a n . I w o u l d b e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhammer 402
t r a n s p o r t a t i o n s i t u a t i o n , a n d I ' m n o t s u r e h o w m u c h t r a n s
p o r t a t i o n t h i s w o u l d e n t a i l , a n d w h e t h e r o r n o t i t w o u l a i n
v o l v e m o r e f i n a n c e s t h a n w o u l d b e i n d i c a t e d in Mr. P a r s o n s '
p l a n , b u t I t h i n k t h a t t h i s wTo u l d n e c e s s i t a t e i n o r d e r t o give
a n e q u a l e d u c a t i o n a l o p p o r t u n i t i e s f o r a l l y o u n g s t e r s s o m e
d i s t r i c t s p o n s o r t r a n s p o r t a t i o n . T h a t m i g h t b e t h e m o s t —
o n e of t h e m o s t d i f f i c u l t p r o b l e m s b e c a u s e of t h e f a c t o b
v i o u s l y t h e d i s t r i c t c o u l d n ' t g e t h e c a p i t a l t o i n v e s t i n
b u s e s w o u l d p r o b a b l y h a v e t o u s e c u r r e n t t r a n s p o r t a t i o n
f a c i l i t i e s w i t h i n t h e c o m m u n i t y .
Q Dr . G o l d h a m m e r , d o y o u h a v e a n o p i n i o n as t o h o w
m u c h t i m e i t v/ould t a k e t h e a d m i n i s t r a t i o n t o a r r a n g e to
s h i f t s a y t h i s y e a r f a c u l t y m e m b e r s s o t h a t s a y t h e N e g r o
s c h o o l s , t h a t is t h e p r e d o m i n a t e l y N e g r o s c h o o l s o r a l l N e g r o
s c h o o l s , w o u l d h a v e s a y a n y w h e r e f r o m 30 % t o 50 % w h i t e f a c u l t y
m e m b e r s ?
A T h a t is p r e t t y h a r d n o t k n o w i n g t h e i n t e r n a l
s y s t e m t h a t is a v a i l a b l e , b u t I w o u l d a s s u m e i t w o u l d t a k e
a t l e a s t a m o n t h t o d o it. I d o n ' t k n o w t h e s y s t e m , I d o n ' t
f
k n o w t h e e x t e n t t o w h i c h c o m p u t e r s c o u l d b e u s e d t o i d e n t i f y ,
w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t w o u l d w a n t t o u s e t o
i d e n t i f y t h e t e a c h e r s t h a t w o u l d b e s o s h i f t e d , b u t a m o n t h ' s
t i m e w o u l d p r o b a b l y r e q u i r e s o m e o v e r t i m e .
Q S o m e o v e r t i m e . N o w , d o y o u h a v e a n o p i n i o n as
t o w h e t h e r t h e s h i f t i n g t h a t is r e q u i r e d w i l l r e s u l t i n s o m e
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - GoIdhammer 403
d i s l o c a t i o n a t a n y t i m e y o u u n d e r t a k e i t a r e p r o b l e m s t h a t h a v e
b e e n p r e v i o u s l y s t a t e d ?
A Y e s , y o u c a n e x p e c t s o m e d i s l o c a t i o n , t h e m o r e y o u
m a k e c h a n g e s u n d e r e m e r g e n c y s i t u a t i o n t h e g r e a t e r w i l l b e t h e
a m o u n t o f d i s l o c a t i o n . Of c o u r s e , t h i s i s s u e h a s g o n e o n f o r
a c o n s i d e r a b l e a m o u n t of t i m e in t h e c o m m u n i t y . T h e r e a r e
o b v i o u s l y as o n e l o o k s at t e h r e a c t i o n to o u r s u g g e s t i o n s i n
o u r r e p o r t , t h e r e ' o b v i o u s l y a r e s o m e v e r y s t r o n g f e e l i n g s
a b o u t i t i n t h i s c o m m u n i t y s o t h a t t h e o p p o r t u n i t y h a s b e e n
a f f o r d e d f o r i n d i v i d u a l s t o h a v e v e r y s t r o n g p o s i t i o n s a n d
e v e n g r o u p s t o h a v e b e e n f o r m e d , so y o u w o u l d h a v e to h a v e
y o u w o u l d h a v e t o c o u n t e n a n c e d e a l i n g w i t h a v a s t a r r a y of
p r o b l e m s o f t h a t s o r t w h i c h w o u l d a r i s e .
MR. W A L K E R : M a y I h a v e a m o m e n t , Y o u r H o n o r ?
T H E C O U R T : Y e s .
MR. W A L K E R : Y o u r H o n o r , a t t h i s t i m e I w o u l d lik-.
t o m a k e a n o r a l m o t i o n t o t h e C o u r t , a m o t i o n to t h e e f f e c t
t h a t t h e d i s t r i c t be g i v e n u n t i l N o v e m b e r l h t h of t h i s y e a r
t o p r e p a r e a c o m p r e h e n s i v e t o t a l p e r m a n e n t d e s e g r e g a t i o n pla..
f o r t n i s s c h o o l d i s t r i c t in e v e r y r e s p e c t , a p l a n i n w h i c h
p u p i l s w i l l n o t s u f f e r b e c a u s e o f t h e f a c u l t y a s s i g n m e n t s , o
b e c a u s e of t h e p u p i l d e s e g r e g a t i o n p l a n w h i c n h a s s e e n p r e
p a r e d . W e a r e c o n c e r n e d p r i m a r i l y a b o u t t h e e d u c a t i o n of
p u p i l s , t h e p u p i l s w h o h a v e b e e n s h o r t c h a n g e d f o r t h e l o n g e s t
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Gcldhammer 404
p e r i o d o f t i m e a r e N e g r o p u p i l s , a n d w e w a n t t h e m t o a t l a s t
f i n a l l y r e a l i z e e q u a l e d u c a t i o n a l o p p o r t u n i t i e s w i t h i n t h i s
s y s t e m . I w o u l d , t h e r e f o r e , r e s p e c t f u l l y r e q u e s t t h a t t h e
C o u r t r e c e s s t h e h e a r i n g w i t h t h e s c h o o l b o a r d b e i n g d i r e c t e d
t o p r e p a r e s u c h a c o m p r e h e n s i v e p l a n , w h i c h is e v i d e n t f r o m
t h e e v i d e n c e n e e d s t o b e p r e p a r e d , a n d p r e s e n t e d t o t h e C o u r t
w i t h i n a r e a s o n a b l e p e r i o d o f t i m e , a n d w e s u g g e s t t h e d a t e
N o v e m b e r 1 5 t h , w i t h t h e h o p e t h a t t h e C o u r t w o u l d s e t a h e a r
i n g d a t e b e f o r e t h e e n d o f '68, w h e r e b y t h i s m a t t e r c a n b e
f i n a l l y r e s o l v e d , a t l e a s t p r e s e n t e d t o t h e C o u r t .
M R . F R I D A Y : T h e d e f e n d a n t s d o j o i n i n t h e m o t i o n
f o r t h e r e c e s s t o N o v e m b e r 1 5 t h , w e d o n o t a d o p t t h e l a n g u a g e
of t h e m o t i o n , Y o u r H o n o r .
T h H C O U R T : T h e n , M r . W a l k e r , d o I u n d e r s t a n d y o u
a r e s u s p e n d i n g t h e d i r e c t e x a m i n a t i o n o f Dr. G o l d h a m m e r ?
MR . W A L K E R : Y e s , a t t h i s t i m e , Y o u r H o n o r , I
w o u l d l i k e t o r e s e r v e t h e r i g h t t o c a l l h i m b a c k a t a l a t e r
t i m e if n e c e s s a r y .
T H E C O U R T : Mr. F r i d a y , I s u p p o s e u n d e r t h e c i r
c u m s t a n c e s y o u w i s h to w i t h h o l d a n d r e s e r v e c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n
of t h e w i t n e s s u n t i l a l a t e r t i m e ?
MR . F R I D A Y : Ye, sir, I w i l l r e s e r v e c r o s s e x a m i
n a t i o n u n t i l r e s u m p t i o n o f t h e h e a r i n g i n N o v e m b e r .
M R . W A L K E R : Y o u r H o n o r , a t l e a s t a t t h i s s t a g e
o f t h e g a m e r e s e r v i n g t h e m o t i o n o n t h e a s p e c t of t h e n e c e s s i ^ ;
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DIRECT EXAMINATION - Goldhaumer 405
to litigate the pupil desegregation aspects of the lawsuit thu
far, I would respectfully x*equest that the Court enter an ordê -
requiring the district to provide counsel fees for the plain
tiffs on the faculty aspects of this plan up to and including
the present moment, and that the amount be determined on the
basis of a statement to be submitted, and the fee to be deter
mined on the basis of reasonableness rather than other criteria
THE COURT: Well, I have had a long conference
with counsel during the recess and I've listened very carefull -
to the testimony of Dr. Goldhammer, as well as Mr. Parsons,
and Mr. Fowler, and others, and I think the motion is good;
I think it is the best thing for the school district, and I'm
going to grant the motion.
But I want to make this order from the bench. I
will withhold ruling for allowance of counsel fees on faculty
desegregation issue, although frankly I have the impression
from what I have heard in this hearing, that at least for the
last two years the school board has not acted in good faith in
desegregation of the faculty.
I will recess the hearing until sometime in
December. I cannot from the bench now exactly determine the
date, and I will notify the parties later. I would guess it
would be sometime between December 15th and December 20th. I
would have to advise you later after I look at my calendar.
Now, the school board will file a supplemental plan not later
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406
than November 15th, and as I said at the outlet this morning,
the law requires that the present biracial school system in
Little Rock be abolished, and a unitary system be established.
As to faculty, I'm not telling the board just what
plan to file, but I will say this, that if it does not file
a plan that is equal to it or better, the Court will order for
the next year that the faculty in the school system in Little
Rock be reassigned, either in accordance with approximately
the ratio, by race, of the pupils of the school district or by
the ratio of the teachers of the district by race, one of thosa
two. I use the word approximately because I know you cannot
do this exactly to the tenth of one percent, so in that plan,
that plan must include something of that nature.
As to reassignment of pupils, as I said, freedom
of choice is out in Little Rock under the ruling of the Supreme
Court, and I do not wish to see a plan filed November 1.5th
including freedom of choice because I’m ruling that out now.
That plan, in the language of the Supreme Court, must be either
zoning or some other method that will abolish the dual biracial
system, establish a unitary system so that we no longer have
in Little Rock colored schools and white schools, but just plai
"schools".
The hearing is recessed -- I will pick a date -- it
is recessed until approximately the middle of December, exact
date to be set later. The school board will file a supplements
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407
plan not later than November 15th.
Any comments, Gentlemen?
MR. FRIDAY: No comment.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I don't think it is clear
that the Court intends that the supplemental plan cover every
aspect of desegregation, of every vestige of the dual school
system remaining --
THE COURT: I would not want to expand on the
language of the United States Supreme Court. I quoted it
almost verbatim.
Anything further?
We are adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 5:40 o'clock, p.m., the above-
entitled matter was adjourned subject to further proceedings.)
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C E R T I F I C A T E
408
I, D e a n C. L e a s u r e , do h e r e b y c e r t i f y t h a t I am t h e
O f f i c i a l C o u r t R e p o r t e r f o r t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s D i s t r i c t C o u r t ,
E a s t e r n D i s t r i c t o f A r k a n s a s , W e s t e r n D i v i s i o n ; t h a t on
A u g u s t 15 a n d 16, 1 9 6 8 , t h e p r o c e e d i n g s r e p o r t e d h e r e i n in the
c a s e o f D e l o r e s C l a r k , et nl, v. T h e B o a r d o f E d u c a t i o n o f
t h e L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l D i s t r i c t , et a l , w e r e h a d b e f o r e the
H o n o r a b l e G o r d o n E. Y o u n g , J u d g e o f s a i d C o u r t ; a n d t h a t the
f o r e g o i n g p a g e s o f t y p e w r i t t e n m a t e r i a l c o n s t i t u t e a t r u e a n d
c o r r e c t t r a n s c r i p t i o n o f t h e t r i a l a n d t e s t i m o n y at th e t i m e
a n d p l a c e , a n d t h e r e a f t e r r e d u c e d to t y p e w r i t t e n f o r m at m y
d i r e c t i o n a n d u n d e r m y s u p e r v i s i o n .
D a t e d , t h i s ________ d a y o f S e p t e m b e r , 1968.
D e a n C. L e a s u r e , R e p o r t e r .
response to motion op McDonald applicants for intervention
[jill OTI ô J O HU
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FCR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
4 OR*
DELCRES CLARK, et al., ;
Plaintiffs !
VS. ; CIVIL ACTION
: NO. LR-64-C-155THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, et al., ;
Defendants :
YOLANDA G. TOWNSEND, a minor, et al., :
Plaintiff- ;
Intervenors :
LITTLE ROCK CLASSROOM TEACHERS j
ASSOCIATION, ;
Intervenors :
•
MICHAEL McDCNALD, a minor, et al,, j
Applicants for :
Intervention :
RESPONSE TO MOTION FOR LEAVE TO
INTERVENE AS PARTIES PLAINTIFF.
For their Response to Applicants' Motion for Leave to
Intervene as Parties Plaintiff, Defendants state:
I.
Defendants admit that applicants for intervention are all
t
white minors eligible to attend schools in the Little Rock School
system, which are attended predominately by white students.
II.
Defendants deny all allegations of and facts contained
in the Motion except those herein expressly admitted.
III.
Further responding, Defendants assert that intervention
4 08b
Response to ’lotion of McDonald Applicants for Intervention
of applicant* at this time would delay and prejudice the further
adjudication of the rights of the original parties.
WHEREFORE, Defendants pray that the Court deny applicant*'
Motion for Leave to Intervene herein, for coats and all other proper
relief.
SMITH, WILLIAMS, FRIDAY & BOWEN
Attorney* for Defendants
1100 Boyle Building
Little Rock, Arkansas
By__________________
Herschel H. Friday
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I, Herschel H. Friday, one of the attorneys for the
Defendants, certify that I have served a copy of the foregoing
Response and Memorandum upon Messrs. John W. walker, Eugene R.
Warren and Phillip E. Kaplao by placing same in the United States
Mall addressed to the above at their respective addresses this
10th day of December, 1968.
Herschel H. Friday
408c
ORDER DENYING LEAVE TO INTERVENE MCDONALD ET AL
f i l e d
t e c J 1968
bxvxsxoi
DKLOKBS CLAM, at al
v. Vo. LR-64—C-153
t n BOMB OP BDOCATIOV OP M B
LITTLB ROCK BCROOL DISTRICT, at al
YOLAMDA Q. T0NK8BMD, a minor, at al
LXTTLB BOCK CLASSROOM TKAOBRS ASSOCIATION
MM . DOTLB SPBXOMTS, at al
PLAXMTXPPS
DEPSMDASTS
PLAIMTIPP-
IBTBBVBSOBS
XSTVBVBMOM
ISTMVBSORS
fi— JL..P r,
Tha Court find a that tha mot Iona to intervene f Had by
Nichaal McDonald and othara on Bovaaribar 26, 1968, and Mr a. Doyla
Speights and othara filad Pacambar 13, 1968, ara not tlamly
filad. To parmit thaaa partlaa to lntarvanc at thla stage,
aftar tha trial haa laatad two daya and la presumably half over,
would unduly complicate it and would serve no uaaful purpoaa.
Counaa1 for thaaa partiaa, howavar, may participate aa
am leva curiae to tha extant that they will be permitted to
file written atataamnta of their poaitiona, and they may also
file legal memorandum a in aupport thereof, if they ara ao
ad▼lead.
Datedi December 18, 1968.
/■ / W M O *. youiiq
United Stataa Diatrict Judge
4 08d
REPORT AND MOTION
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
/ F I L E D
NOV 1 5 1368
W.
BY:
W Clerk—
WESTERN DIVISION
DELORES CLARK, ET AL PLAINTIFFS
v . NO. LR-64-C-15S
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE DEFENDANTS
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, ET AL
YOLANDA G. TOWNSEND, a minor, by her PLAINTIFFS-INTERVENORS
father and next friend, DR. W . H. TOWNSEND;
ET AL
REPORT AND MOTION
1.
Pursuant to the Order of the Court given from the Bench on August
16, 1968, the Defendants have adopted, for the 1969 - 70 school year, the
Desegregation Plan contained in the Resolution attached hereto and made
a part hereof, as if set out word for word herein. Defendants move this
Court for an Order approving the Desegregation Plan submitted herein.
WHEREFORE, Defendants pray that the Court approve the Desegre
gation Plan submitted herein, that all claims of the Plaintiffs-Intervenors
in their Complaint be denied, and that the Complaint be dismissed with
prejudice and that the Defendants have all other relief to which they may
be entitled.' t
SMITH, WILLIAMS, FRIDAY & BOWEN
11th Floor Boyle Building
Little Rock, Arkansas
ATTORNEYS FOR DEFENDANTS
4 08e
Report and Motion
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I, Joe D. Bell, one of the attorneys for the Defendants, certify
that I have served a copy of the foregoing Report and Motion upon the
Plaintiffs-Intervenors by placing the same in the United States Mail
addressed to Plaintiffs-Intervenors' attorneys o f record at their respective
addresses.
This 15th day of November, 1968.
Joe D. Bell
4 08f
Report apd Motion
( ait \/ > T-JU*
tU.W. , bi-JLVitit.j s-f<JL ■
R E S O L D T I O H
BE IT RESOLVED by the Board of Directors of the Little
Rock School District of rulaolci County, Arkansas:
That the following desegregation plan for the Little Rock
School District for the 1960-70 ochool year bo adopted and presented
to the Honorable Gordon Young, U. S. District Judge, pursuant to his
Order of August 16, 1968, entered in the case of Dolores Clark, et al,
v. Board of Education of Little Rock School District, et al.:
A. Faculty
The Little Rock Public Schools will assign and reassign
teachers for the 1969-70 school year to achieve the following:
1. The number of Negro teachers within each school
of the district will range from a minimum of 157. to a maximum of 457..
2. The number of white teachers within each school
of the district will range from a minimum of 557. to a maximum of 857..
B. Students
The Little Rock School District will be divided into
geographic attendance nones for elementary, junior high, and senior
high schools as indicated on the accompanying map. All students
residing in the designated zones will attend the appropriate school
in that zone with the following exceptions:
1. The Metropolitan Vocational-Technical High School
will serve students from the entire district. Students will indicate
their desire to attend Metropolitan before May 1, 1969. Actual
assignments will be determined from objective test results on one or
more vocational-technical aptitude inventories.
2. All teachers, who desire to do so, may enroll their
children in the schools where they are assigned to teach.
')
4 08g
Report and Motion
Page 2
3. All otudonts prcccntly in the 8th, 10th, and 11th
grades will be required to choose between the school that they now
attend or the appropriate school located in the zone of residence for
the 1969-70 school year.
Initeii i>tatz b (Eflurt a t Appeals
F or the E ighth Circuit
No. 19795
Delores Clark, et al.,
vs.
Appellants,
T he B oard of E ducation of the
L ittle R ock S chool D istrict, et al.
No. 19810
Delores Clark, et al.,
vs.
Appellees,
T he B oard of E ducation of the
L ittle R ock S chool D istrict, et al.
APPEALS FROM T H E UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR TH E
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
JOINT APPENDIX
VOLUME II— Pages 409-927
H erschel H . F riday
R obert V . L ight
1100 Boyle Building
Little Rock, Arkansas 72201
J ohn W . W alker
B url C. R otenberry
1820 West 13th Street
Little Rock, Arkansas 72202
Jack Greenberg
James M. N abrit, III
N orman J. Chachkin
10 Columbus Circle
New York, New York 10019
A t t o r n e y s f o r A p p e l l a n t s
an d C r o s s - A p p e l l a n t s
I N D E X
Page
D o c k e t E n t r i e s .................................................................. la
M o t i o n for Further Relief ................................... 5a
Answer of Defendants to Motion for Further Relief .......... l6a
Motion to Intervene as Parties-Plaintiff ................... 24a
Complaint of Plaintiffs-Intervenors ......................... 27a
Letter of District Court Dated July 18, 1968 ............... 32a
Order Permitting Intervention ............................... 33a
Answer to Complaint of Plaintiffs-Intervenors .............. 34a
Transcript of Proceedings August 15-16, 1968 ............... 38a
Response to Motion of McDonald Applicants for Intervention .. 408a
Order Denying Leave to Intervene McDonald, et al............ 408c
Report and Motion ........................................... 408d
Transcript of Proceedings December 19, 20 and 24, 1968 ...... 409
Memorandum Opinion .......................................... 891
Decree........................................................ 922
Notice of Appeal ............................................. 924
Notice of Appeal ............................................. 925
Notice of Cross-Appeal ...................................... 926
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OF PROCEEDINGS DECEMBER 19, 20 AND 24, 1968 409
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
DELORES CLARK, et al, :
Plaintiffs, :
v. No. LR-64-C-155
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE LITTLE
ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, et al,
Defendants.
x
U. S. Post Office and Courthouse
Little Rock, Arkansas
Thursday, December 19, 1968
BE IT REMEMBERED, That the above-entitled matter
was continued after adjournment from August 20, 1968, before
The Honorable GORDON E. YOUNG, United States District Judge,
commencing at 9:30 o'clock, a.m.
APPEARANCES:
On behalf of plaintiffs:
JOHN W. WALKER, Esq., and
BURL C. ROTENBERRY, Esq., of
Walker & Rotenberry,
1820 West Thirteenth Street,
Little Rock, Arkansas; and
JOHN P. SIZEMORE, Esq., and
PHILLIP KAPLAN, Esq., of
McMath, Leatherman, Woods & Youngdahl,
711 West Third Street,
Little Rock, Arkansas.
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410
On behalf of defendants: ^
HERSCHEL H. FRIDAY, JR., Esq., ROBERT V. LIGHT, Esc
and JOE D. BELL, Esq., of
Smith, Williams, Friday & Bowen,
Boyle Building,
Little Rock, Arkansas.
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411
THE WITNESS
Floyd W. Parsons
Floyd W. Parsons -
Dr. E. C. Stimbert
C O N T E N T S
DIRECT CROSS
AFTERNOON SESSION
Resumed
559 598
REDIRECT RECROSS
413 462
- 490
491
622 623
EXHIBITS
For Identification In Evidence
Defendant's Exhibits:
Nos . 20 and 21 417 417
No. 22 431 432
No. 23 432 432
No. 24 447
No. 25 454 455
No. 26 459 459
No. 27 462 462
Plaintiff's Exhibit:
No. 2 527
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412
THE COURT: Gentlemen, we will resume this morning
the hearing or trial in the case of Delores Clark versus the
Little Rock School Board. We had two days of hearing ugust
15th and 16th of this year and we adjourned the trial until
today.
I believe in our discussions in chambers a lev;
days sgo— lir. Friday wasn't present but Mr. Light was, Mr.
Walker -- it was considered the best procedure for the witnes:
for the School Board to testify affirmatively on the different
or perhaps a general description also of the differences in
the new plan presented for the Court's consideration between
the date of the last hearing and today.
I realize technically that Dr. Goldhammer was on
the stand and when we concluded our hearing on ugust 16th,
his direct examination had not been concluded and, of course,
therehad been no cross examination but I believe that is the
understanding of hew v.ye were to proceed today.
a
Is that your understanding, gentlemen.-
MR. LIGHT: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: The defendants may call their first
witness.
MR. FRIDAY: Mr. Parsons.
THE COURT: Let rue ray this: there are some
people In the courtroom and out of courtesy towards them, let1
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413
try to speak loud enough the witnesses and ifYiiorneys can be
heard.
Mr. Walker, I see counsel who represented some of
the proposed interventions which I denied. Do you wish to
make them counsel for certain persons?
MR. WALKER: Yes, Your Honor. Mr. Kaplan and Mr.
Sizemore assisted Mr. Rotenberry and me in the representation
of the plaintiffs and in the intervenors already in the action.
THE COURT: All right. Let the record show.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, while we go ahead Mr.
Bell, with the permission of the Court, will go ahead and set
up our stand and put the map on it and we'll get to it in a
moment.
THE COURT: All right.
Thereupon,
FLOYD W. PARSONS
having been called for examination by counsel for defendants,
and having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testi
fied further as follows:
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
0 State your name, please.
A Floyd Parsons.
0 You are the Mr. Parsons who is Superintendent of
Schools of the Little Rock S-. hool District and who has already
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414
testified In this proceeding In August, 1SSS; is that correct
A That is correct.
Q Me. Parsons, we want to pick up with events that
have transpired that were not covered in the testimony in the
August proceeding in this trial, and primarily we’ll try to
stay away from any repitition of what has already been test ifi
to.
Now prefaced with that, can you state whether or
not you have given consideration to various alternatives to
the present freedom of choice desegregation procedure being
followed by the Little Rock School District?
A Yes, we have.
Q And when I said Myou" and you say "we”, who are
you talking about?
A I ’m talking about the staff members of the Little
Rock Public School System, as well as the Board of Directors.
Q Will you state what alternatives were considered?
A Mr. Friday, I think I could say that we considerec
all of the alternatives, all of the suggestions, all of the
thoughts that we have had concerning methods whereby this
particular problem could be solved.
I refer specifically to the Oregon Report, the
report that was tabbed the Parsons Plan, the plan that was
submitted by two of our Board members, Mr. Meeks and Mr. Wood.'
the plan submitted by Mr. Walker -- I ’m talking about ranges
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415
all the way from the educational park concept to school pairii
to zoning, et cetera.
Q All right. Now, let me ask you what I’ll call a
preliminary question and then we will go back to this.
iihat type plan did you end up with, Hr. Parsons,
that was approved by the Board and submitted to the Court?
A A plan of geographic zoning.
Q Okay.
Now, what led you to abandon the other proposals
or plans that were considered by you, and specifically the
Oregon and or Parsons Plan approach to desegregation.
A The Oregon Plan, of course, required for its
implementation — not all of it related directly to the Oregor
Plan, but required some $10 million. The Parsons Plan in
excess of $5 million. Consequently, I would say that money
was involved, of course, in eliminating these plans from
serious consideration.
There are other reasons, too, if you would like
me to name them.
Q You go ahead and elaborate any other reasons you
considered in reaching the conclusion not to submit those as
suitable alternatives.
A ye'll have to separate the Oregon Plan from the
Parsons Plan. When I make this statement we did not consider
the Oregon Plan in every detail to be an educationally sound
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Q For the record, the Oregon Plan is in evidence in
this proceeding.
A Yes, it is.
Q All right. Go ahead.
A And we certainly feel that any plan that is
developed for the young people of this community shouldbe
sound educationally, and there are difficulties involved in
certain considerations that we made of various types of plans
that would have been extremely difficult to administer in a
fair and impartial manner for the young people of our communitj;
Q Mr. Parsons, you already have in evidence and I
won't ask you to itemis'-e your specific objections to the Oregcji
Plan. We put them in and you filed them at the time it was
submitted back there.
Were there any additional considerations when you
looked at this again since August that led you not to recommev
it at this time?
A The only additional consideration that I know of
would be that this community has -- since the inception of the
Oregon Plan — turned down a proposed mill age increase and
bond issue, not in relationship to the Oregon Plan but in
relationship to the Parsons Plan.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I think -- if I understar
this correctly, Mr. Walker, you have no objections to us
plan.
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Introducing what Is available which is a newspaper report of
the results of the election that involved the Oregon Plan,
and. I ’ll show you what I have in mind.
HR. WALKER: We have no objections, Your Honor.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, my records reflect that
we were up to Exhibit — this- is Exhibit 20.
THE COURT: It will be received as Defendants'
Exhibit lio. 20.
(Whereupon, the document heretofore referr
to was marked as Defendants' Exhibit No. 2
for identification, and was received in
evidence.)
BY HR. FRIDAY:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, I hand you Defendants’ Exhibit
No. 20 which purports to be a breakdown by precincts of the
school election just referred to by you, and ask you how you
relate what this exhibit reflects to the voters acting on the
Oregon Plan. Do you understand what I'm asking?
THE COURT: In other words, this tabulation appear
to be a vote on candidates for the School District.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Is that right? How co you relate that to the
Oregon Plan?
A Well I would relate it in this manner, that those
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individuals — at least one of those individual who was a
vocal supporter of the Oregon Plan was defeated in the School
Board election.
Q That individual was --
A Hr. Coates.
Q Right. Actually, what was the result —
THE COURT: Do you make a distinction between the
Oregon Plan and the Parsons Plan?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes I do, Your Honor, and I'll have
another exhibit on that.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q What was the result of the vote on the two incumbe
board members who were up for re-election?
A Both were defeated.
Q What was the result of the vote on the millage
proposal on the same ballot?
A It was passed.
Q Do you remember what the millage was, Mr. Parsons'
A Well, if I remember correctly — and I haven't
examined this — but if I remember correctly the millage
proposal was the same but there was a bond issue in connectioi
with the election that was passed.
THE COURT: That was additional millage or bend
Issue?
THE WITNESS: No, sir, the millage proposal was
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merely to continue the same millage, hut Uhc**e was latitude
that permitted the issuance o£ bonds.
THE COURT: Actually they couldn’t have lowered
it, could they, Mr. ParsonsV
THE WITNESS: Wo, but they could have refused the
bonds.— the issuance of the bonds.
to be —
THE COURT: These were additional bonds that were
THE WITNESS: Covered by existing millage.
THE COURT: I see.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right. Let’s move to the Parsons Plan, Mr.
Parsons. Is the Parsons Plan in evidence in this proceedingV
A Yes, it is.
Q All right. Did the Parsons Plan as such, either
directly or indirectly, get submitted to a vote o£ the people'
A More directly than did the Oregon Plan.
MR. FRIDAY: We offer, Your Honor, a similar accous
of the results of this election as Defendants’ Exhibit No. 21
without objection from Mr. Walker.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(Whereupon, the document heretofore referred
to was marked as Defendants’ Exhibit No. 21
for identification, and was received in
evidence.)
420
F. 10
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BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr. Parsons, I have handed you Defendants' Exhibit
Ho. 21. Would you state for the record what it reflects con
cerning the vote on the issue submitted to the electorate at
that time?
A Well there were two school board positions that
were filled and a vote on the proposed miliuge and bond issue
for the Little Rock schools.
Q Well to expedite, there is no dispute, the two
incumbents who supported the plan were defeated and the bond
issue in support of the plan was defeated; is that correct?
A Ahat is correct, yes, sir.
Q For the record, this election was in March, 196C?
A Right.
Q All right. I take it you have testified and again
we need just a moment to expedite — you abandoned further
consideration of the Parsons Plan at this time; is that correct?
A Yes, w»e did.
Q Are there any other considerations other than tho;
you have already testified to concerning your decision not to
submit the Parsons Plan or a variation at this time? Arc
there any other considerations?
A Other than the three considerations I mentioned,
administration and dollars involved as well a;: being educa
tionally sound? Are those the considerations you are referrir;
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to?
Q How about community support?
A Well, of course, community support is always a
requirement before you can initiate a change in a school pro
gram.
Q Are there aspects of community support other than
dollars that are important to an educational program?
A Oh, yes.
Q What?
A Well, I think it's evident that dollars alone
would not build a good school system. There must be a morale
and a feeling of interest and an allegiance to the school pro
gram and the schools located in individual school communities
in order to develop an effective program foryoung people.
Q You testified you considered a plan submitted by
Mr. John Walker.
A Yes, we did.
Q I do not believe 1 have that plan as such in
evidence, so briefly will you state for the record what the
Walker Plan or what the plan proposed by Mr. Walker was?
THE COURT: You might identify Mr. Walker a little
further.
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, sir. Mr. Walker is counsel for
the plaintiffs in this proceeding, yes, sir.
Your Honor, I stand corrected. The plan is in
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evidence.
THE COURT: I think Dr. Coldhammer discussed it.
HR. FRIDAY: The plan is in evidence.
BY HR. FRIDAY:
Q Let's proceed on the basis it is in evidence,
but again briefly what was the Walker Plan just briefly,
Mr. Parsonsv
A Hr. Walker’s plan was basically a combination cf
the Oregon Report and the report we made from the administrat
of the school system, with one primary departure. That depar
ture had to do v?ith a rotating of six, I believe, areas and
two high schools that were to bo two-year high schools,
eleventh and twelfth grade high schools, Hall High and Mann
High, with six geographic areas rotating in and out of there
schools.
Q Well, be a little more specific on rotating areas
Take a student who is in Mann High School at a certain point,
what happens to that student during his high school career?
A He could remain in Mann High according to this
report or he could rotate out, depending upon when he enrolled
in terms cf that particular area's time to remain where it was
or be shifted to another section -- another high school.
Q Well suppose he was in any of them. Take Hall
High School in the tenth grade, Under Mr. Walker’s proposal.
What would happen to that student during his high school caret
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A Well they would not have been there, Mr. Friday,
in the tenth grade because this was an eleventh and twelfth
grade school.
Q You are correct. I want to get in the record vha :
happens on the rotation.
A On the rotation the individual could remain in the
school through the eleventh and twelfth grades, but one-third
if I interpret the plan correctly, being purely geographic —
one-third of the students would rotate out every year and they
would be assigned on a purely geographic basis. Consequently
it would be possible for an individual to take his eleventh
grade work in Mann High School and be in Hall High School for
the twelfth grade and thus graduate from Hall High School and
vica versa.
Q All right. Is there any other explanation you
want to make of what I'm calling the Walker Plan?
A I think that is sufficient.
Q Why did you find it objectionable to the point
you did not recommend it, Mr. Parsons?
A Without listing these in any priority, the cost
involved in transporting pupils —
Q Can you give us an approximation of what you are
talking about?
A Between 5 hundred thousand and $6 hundred thousanc
annually would be required for the transportation of pupils.
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Q Go ahead.
A The fact that in our judgment the plan was
educationally unsound in that there are many reasons v;hy pupils
should have some continuity in their high school education,
disregarding the importance of continuity vithin the courses
they take which is evident. There should be continuity in
their co-curricular and extra-curricular activities. I am
talking about such things as reporter on the school newspaper
editor of the high school annual, quarterback on the football
team, first tenor in the school choir, and flute player in the
band. There would be no continuity developed.
There would be a loss, we think, of pnrrent
allegiance and community understanding and rapport in relatici;
ship to this particular school, knowing that "we are here for
a year or two after which this section of the community would
be rotated out and we would have to shift our allegiance to
another school in the system".
The pairing concept as delineated in Hr. Walker's
plan in many instances did not take into consideration geo
graphic proximity.
THE COURT: Is that of the grammar school?
THE WITNESS: Yes, the elementary schools. A
school fartherest to the west was suggested for pairing with
schools iartherect to the west, which would have created the
same problem in parental understanding and parental support
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for the school that I have previously identified.
THE COURT: How far are those two schools apart,
Mr. Parsons?
THE WITNESS: Oh, eight miles.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Can you identify the two schools, Mr. Parsons?
A I believe the suggestion was made, for example,
that Meadowcliff would be paired with Granite Mountain. I'm
not real sure of this, but the plan is an exhibit with the Cou
Q Any other reasons considered by you in your dec is:,
not to recommend?
A I think any other reasons I might give would be
somewhat repetitious of those I have already given. I would
say, however, that the amount of money that would have been
required in terms of transportation could have been used or
could be used, if indeed we had it, could be used very effect,
in the implementation of other educational programs within th.
system.
Q You mentioned a proposal submitted by two board
members, Mr. Meeks and Mr. Woods. What was that proposal?
A This proposal was basically the establishment of
school zones, but the resevation of space in those schools
that had not experienced what would be called adequate or
sufficient integration at the secondary level.
THE COURT: You mean buffer areas?
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THE WITNESS: No, there were really no buffer zom
This was the creation of actual attendance zones and then,
for example, in Hall High School where there are no Negro
residents to speak of, a reservation of ten percent of the
available seats in Hall High would have been reserved for Neg:
children to transfer under freedom of choice -- under a limitt
freedom of choice into this particular school.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q You, of course, considered this and your testimony
is you did not recommend it. Would you state why you did not
recommend it?
A We did not recommend this as a plan for two or
three reasons.
One, we felt that in the first piece -- and I'm
net naming these in any priority — but in the first place
it would be extremely difficult to administer in a fair and
an impartial manner the determination, in the event that more
than ten percent of children requested permission to attend
Hall High since we are using that as an example, the difficult
that we could well experience of determining which ones of the
children who had requested permission to attend Hall, would be
eligible under this plan, would be extremely difficult.
THE COURT: Uould that ten percent be planned for
transfer from other children only or white and colored?
THE WITNESS: It would be Negro children only.
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If it were done on a geographical basis, it's
entirely possible that when the limitation had been reached
and we could only take one more student to fall within the
ten percent, that several other students could make applicatic
that lived on the same street. This is the type of thing I'm
talking about when I say it would be difficult to administer
fairly and impartially.
We saw nothing sacred about ten percent. It coulc
have been five percent or it would have been twenty percent
or it could have been thirty percent. There was nothing real]
sacred about the figure of ten percent and this concerned us.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q The position was to be filled by what method, at
least up until you got the ten percent? By what method?
THE COURT: Freedom of choice.
THE WITNESS: Freedom of choice and I believe thi:
Court has rules, if I remember correctly, that we are to
eliminate freedom of choice.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q But at any rate it embodied freedom of choice to
a limited class; is that correct?
A Yes. I'd like to point out in this connection
that when we talk about administering it in a fair and impart,
manner, that depending on where a pupil live he would have
three choices of a high school in this district. He could go,
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shall I cay, to Central or Hall or Metropolitan. Whereas if
a pupil happened to live one block in some other area, just
one block removed from this pupil, he would have only two choi
He would have to go either to Mann or Metropolitan. So depend
on where an individual lived, certain special consideration
would be given to that particular child and we do not think
this is fair and impartial.
Q All right new, Mr. Parsons, have we missed any
considerations? Did you consider an educational park concept
or did you feel you did that with the Oregon Report?
A We feel we considered the educational park concept
in connection with the Oregon Report. Again, it would involve
tremendous sums of money to implement it.
Q Will you state to the Court what consideration yov
have given at the staff level in an effort to develop any othe
variations to what you have already testified to?
A Subsequent to the directive by our Board of
Directors to develop a plan to be submitted to the Court, I
called a meeting of our Assistant Superintendent and Deputy
Superintendent and said to this group of five individuals,
"I would like for you to spend a week as a minimum just thinki
about the type of plan that this District could com? up with
that would implement the process of desegregation in this
District and would, at the same time, be educationally sound
and would, at the same time, not require the expenditure of
429
funds which we do not have”. And several suggestions were
•;>ubmitted to me at the conclusion of this week or ten days.
We reviewed all of these suggestions, but unfortunately most
of the suggestions that were made did involve dollars because
it is extremely difficult to make major changes in a school
system without additional dollars. But we discussed together
all of the ideas that came out of this request.
Q Mr. Parsons, have we missed anything'; How about
feeder systems? This has been suggested at times --
THE COURT: I'm not sure I understand that exactly.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right. What is a feeder system, Mr. Parsons!
A A feeder system is a system whereby there will be
four elementary school schools continuous to each other. The:e
four elementary schools, the outer limits of the boundaries o.
these four elementary schools, would consitute a junior high
school district whose lines would be coterminous with the
extensive boundaries of the four elementary schools. Then
there would be another junior high school contiguous to this
one that encompassed four elementary school xones.
And it goes without saying it would not have to
be four, of course. I'm using this as an example. Then there
would be a senior high school district that would encompass
the total area within the two junior high school district and
the lines of the senior high school district would be coterraii ou.
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v?ith the joint lines of the two junior high school districts,
who in turn would encompass four elementary school districts
each. This is a feeder system.
Q Could there be variations of this Lthout lines?
Could you just designate higher level schools and then desig
nate the lower level schools to feed into it?
A I thought you were referring to a zoning plan.
Of course, there could, yes. This could be done without line:
entirely, if you merely designated every student to attend
this elementary school must go to this junior high school; ev-::
pupil that attends this junior high school must go to this
senior high school.
Q Based on your consideration of it, other than whal:
we*11 cover with the zoning proposal, did you come up with a
conclusion as to whether a feeder system, apart from that,
would be a feasible alternative at this time? Do you under
stand what I'm asking you?
A The entire Little Rock Public School System could
not, in our judgment, be organized on a feeder system. There
are certain areas of the City School District that can be
organized on a feeder system.
Q All right. I'm going to sslc you this, Hr. Parson:
Based on nil of your testimony at the earlier hearing and
here, based on your qualifications that are In the record,
based upon your specific knowledge and experience as to the
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Little Rock School District, do you have an^^pert opinion as
to the only feasible alternative or a desegregation proposal
to the present freedom of choice procedure.-' First, do you m\
the opinion.'’
A Yes, I do.
Q What is it?
A The opinion is that geographic attendance zones,
as we ha\*2 submitted to the Court, is the only alternative,
taking into cons ideration the other conditions that do exist ii
this District.
Q All right. Now let's turn to the zoning proposal
that has been submitted to the Court. I ask you to look to
your left and see if you can identify what's before you.
THE COURT: Is that identified by a number?
HR. FRIDAY: I'll mark it now. We will mark this
for identification a s Defendants' Exhibit No. 22.
(Whereupon, the document heretofore referret
to was marked as Defendants' Exhibit No. 22
for identification.)
You refer now to Defendants' Exhibit No. 22 and
will you identify it, please?
A Defendants' Exhibit No. 22 Is a map showing high
schools, junior high schools and elementary attendance zones
that we propose in this hearing today.
MR. FRIDAY: I'm going to mark for identification
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Defendant?' Exhibit No. 23, the resolution that accompanies
this asp. Mr. Walker, if you have no objections I'm going
to offer In Defendants' Exhibit No. 22 and No. 22.
I do now formally offer these, Your Honor.
THE COURT: They will be received.
(Whereupon, the document heretofore narked
for identification as Defendants' Exhibit
No. 22 was received in evidence; and the
document heretofore referred to v/as marked
Defendants' Exhibit Ho. 23 for identificatio:
and was received in evidence.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right now, Mr. Parsons, let's look at Defendant
Exhibit Ho. 23. Will you summarize the desegregation plan
that has been approved by the Board and is submitted to the
Court for consideration and defendants request for approval
in this procedure? Summarize it, please.
A There are two areas covered in the plan. The
first area has to do with faculty desegregation. It is pro
posed that teachers for the 1969-70 school year will oe assing
and re-assigned to achieve the following:
In the first place, the number of Hegro teachers
within each school of the District will range from a minimum
of fifteen percent to a maximum of 45 percent on each iedivich
school campus, while the number of white teachers within the
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system of the District within each school in the District will
range from a minimum of 55 percent to a maximum of 85 percent.
THE COURT: What is the ratio of the two groups
of teachers to each other?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, are you taking about ths
grand total?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: About 28 or 29 percent of the total
faculty is Negro.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. FRIDAY:
Q I'm going to come back with detailed questioning
on faculty, but would you pass on?
A All right.
Q Pass on to students.
A Then the Little Rock School District will be divic
into geographic attendance zones as per the map that is dis
played here, both elementary, junior high school and senior
high school.
Q "As per the map here." Is that Defendants' Exhibit
No. 22?
A Yes, No. 22. And all students residing in these
designated zones would attend the appropriate school in that
zone, but we did establish certain exceptions.
We have a Metropolitan Vocational Technical High
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School that serves students over the entire District and the
students would indicate their desire to attend this vocational
tec rsical high school and tests would be administered to
determine their vocational and technical aptitude for admissi<
to this particular school.
A second exception would be that since, according
to this plan, there would be a decided increase in faculty
desegregation that all teachers who desire to do so may enroll,
their children in the school or in the schools where those
teachers are assigned to teach.
A third exception —
Q Why did you do that? Let me interrupt a moment.
A We did this in the first place because we felt
that since there will be a decided increase in faculty deseg
regation and since it is entirely possible, according to this
zone, that there could remain certain all-white or certain all.
Negro schools in the system, that this would tend to eliminate:
any all-white or all-Negro schools.
It at least would make it possible for their
elimination since a school that has been classified as all-Neg
and assuming the geographic zone that supported that school wa
made up only of Negro residents, assuming further that 55 per<
of the faculty of that school according to this plan would be
white, surely some of the white teachers would desire to take
their children with them to the particular school as they go
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to te a c h . The same would be true fo r the sch ools in the
w estern p art o f the c i t y th at i s la r g e ly the w hite areas o f
the c i t y .S i n c e a minimum o f f i f t e e n percent o f th at fa c u lt y
would be Negro su r e ly some o f those fa c u lty members would
take t h e i r c h ild r e n w ith them.
Q I s th ere any convenience to the teach er involved?
A T h a t 's the second p oin t I was going to make.
Su rely th ere i s a convenience.
Q Would th a t a s s i s t you in a ss ig n in g teach ers?
A I t would not only a s s i s t us in a ss ig n in g teach ers
but i t would a s s i s t us in r e c r u it in g te a c h e rs .
Q To ahead. I in terru p ted you.
A Then a l l students who are p r e s e n t ly in the e ig h th
grade a t the ju n io r h igh sch o o l l e v e l and a l l stu den ts who
are p r e s e n t ly in the ten th and e lev e n th grades a t the se n io r
high sc h o o l l e v e l would be given a ch oice to e i t h e r attend the
ap p ro p ria te sch o o l in the zone where the residence o f th a t
p u p il i s lo c a te d or to continue to attend th a t sch o o l where
they are c u r r e n t ly e n r o l le d .
Q A l l r i g h t . Now, l e t ' s ge t s p e c i f i c and I want
you to e x p la in why you did th at e d u c a t io n a lly . Take, fo r
exam ple, the student - - and i t would work e it h e r way — who
i s in the Horace Mann z o n e but who is a lready in C en tra l High
School or any converse s i t u a t i o n . Why would i t be important
to l e t them go t o th e ir z o n e a t these grade le v e ls or s ta y
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where they are?
A We feel that a high school program as presently
conceived i3 something more than purely an academic program,
as we have stated previously.
The pupil who has related himself to co-curricula::
and extra-curricular activities — the eleventh grade student-
for example, have probably already ordered their invitations
and rings for their senior year. There are pupils in the
tenth grade at the present time who have been elected to the
pep clubs and are playing in the band and participating in
athletics and they have related themselves to many activities
and we feel that those pupils have a preemptive right to
complete that school if they desire to do so as seniors and
graduate from the school where they have initiated their
educational program.
We feel that at the junior high school level, the
seventh grade students has related himself somewhat to the
school, but he has rot related himself quite as effectively
as has the eighth grade student. Consequently, we feel that
the eight grade student, at the junior high school level, shot
be permitted to finish the ninth grade at that junior high
school.
Q All right. Now as I say I'm going to come back
to the faculty, but I want you now to refer to Defendants’
E hibit No. 22 and I want you to explain the exhibit as to
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what it does, what considerations arc involved in the exhibit
A Exhibit 22 shows elementary, junior high school
and senior high school non-overlapping compulsory attendance
zones with the exceptions as previously mentioned.
Q All right. Hew does it show them? Row are they
indicated so anyone looking at it can read it and tell at
any level in which zone he or she is situated?
A The high school zones are identified by color,
the Parkview zone being green and to my left; the Hall High
School zone being a light brown or orange and to the north or
top of the map at least; the Central High School zone being
red or pink and in the central city; the Mann High School
zone being blue.
The junior high school zones are identified by
rather heavy orange lines, while the elementary zones being
designated by black lines, much narrower than the orange line;
Q All right. State to the Court how you arrived at
these particular zones and such considerations as you feci wer
relevant to the conclusion reached that this is the zoning
proposal that should be made.
A These zones were arrived at through the process c::
identifying both white and Negro students by the process of u:
spot maps in the enti e District, and in an effort to make the
most efficient use of existing physical facilities and also
in an effort to get aa much desegregation as ve possibly coulc
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efficient use of buildings.
Q All right now for the record so we don't delay,
who is the individual in your office who did the detail work
on this aspect of it?
A Don Roberts.
Q Then if we check with Mr. Don Roberts to refresh
your recollection on it, that would be the fastest way to get
it?
A Yes, it would.
Q Can you go ahead and if you feel you are in doubt
we will drop it and I'll pick it up later?
A Well, it suffices to say in our judgment it was
impossible to develop a complete feeder system, but with very
few exceptions, the map that is displayed here does provide
a feeder system of schools -- but there are a few exceptions.
I know that Henderson Junior High School is one
exception; Brady Elementary School is one exception. But all
of these can be identified in time.
Q All right now, Mr. Parsons, so we'll have a ccmple
record, has your office prepared — based on information now
available which may or may not continue to be completely
accurate ~ a breakdown on student population in each zone at
each level?
A Yes, we have.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I’m going to put this in
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the record And we have — I have all my exhy^JLts laid out.
I have a little problem with this.
THE COURT: Do you have a tabulation there?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, sir, and I don't want to put in
something and be changing it. If we are going to take a break
shortly, I can do it then.
THE COURT: I had hoped to go to twenty minutes
to eleven.
MR. FRIDAY: That will be fine, sir.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q But you have prepared it and you know, based on
present information — that is, at this time — what the stud*
population is in each zone by population and by race; is that
correct?
A Yes.
Q Let me ask you a few questions. There can be
conscientiously conceived variations in a zoning plan, can't
there, Mr. Parsons?
A Yes, there could be almost as many variations a s
there are blocks or streets on which lines could be drawn.
Q All right. Let's take, for example, at the high
school level. You were questioned previously in cross exam
ination as to why, in arriving at a plan — these are my words
but it's my recollection in re-reading the evidence -- that yc
did not consider Parkview as a junior high and operate on
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zoning at the senior high level excluding Metropolitan with
only Central, Hell and Mann. Do you remember being questioned
about that?
A Yes, I do.
Q Have you given further consideration to that poss
ibility as a feasible alternative within the zoning concept?
A Yes.
THE COURT: I’m not sure I understand that, Mr.
Friday.
MR. FRIDAY: All right, sir. Your Honor, our
burden, as we understand it, is to make the record that we ha^’
considered all available, feasible alternatives. Since there
was specific questioning by Mr. Walker concerning why you wou
leave Parkview as a high school rather than make it a junior
high and then operate on zoning with your other three high
schools, I want to develop we did consider this.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q You did consider this?
A Yes.
THE COURT: What is Parkview?
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q What is Parkview and where is it on Exhibit 22?
THE COURT: I see it.
THE WITNESS: Parkview is at the present time lis!
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as Parkview School. Grades eight, nine and ten are being offe
in Parkview.
THE COURT: It is essentially operated now as a
junior high?
THE WITNESS: Yes, but it is our present plan to
move this school to nine, ten and eleven next year and ten,
eleven and twelve the following year.
THE COURT: All right.
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high facility per pupil.
If we were to use Parkview School as a junior high
school, we would in the very, very near future begin to feel
a very pressing need for senior high school space.
If we use it as a senior high school facility, whic'i
this plan calls for, we are immediately also in need of junioi
high school space. Consequently, it would seem unwise to me
to jump out of the frying pan into the fire.
If we use it as a junior high school, we would soon
have to buy a site and build a new senior high school when we
already have a new senior high school built at Parkview, whic!
cost considerably more than it would cost to build a similar
facility to serve the needs of a junior high school.
Q Well, anything else on this?
A No.
Q All right.
Let me ask you two or three questions going back --
let me ask you this. This is the most recently constructed
school in the Little Rock School District?
A Yes, it is.
Q When consideration was given to this, why did you
determine to build it as a senior high school?
A There was a need for a senior high school. t
Q Did you build it for thepurpose of perpetuating segr
gation?
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A No, we have not built any building for the purpose
of perpetuating segregation.
Q Was this at the time of the Oregon study being undeT
way?
A Yes, the bids were opened in fact on the constructioi
of Parkview School during the time that the team from the
University of Oregon were in the process of writing their
report, yes.
Q Do you know whether any submission was made to the
Oregon team .as to whether or not this school should be con
structed?
A Yes. I personally was in contact with the team frot
the University of Oregon, and posed this question to them.
Q Did they approve it or disapprove it?
A They approved the construction of this building as
a school.
Q When we get our figures, 1 will come back to this,
and I have just a few other questions on it.
Let's move into faculty, Mr. Parsons. Go back to
the desegregation proposal, Defendant's Exhibit 23, which is
under sub-heading A, Faculty.
Will you explain to the Court why you arrived at the
proposal concerning the range as set forth on the Defendant's
Lxhibig 25?
A An analysis of the number of white and Negro teacher
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at each of our three levels of instruction in the Little Rock
school system will show the following -- and I hope I can
remember these figures -- 18 per cent of the total high school
faculty is Negro, while 82 per cent of the high school faculty
is white.
Q Well, roughly 85-15 is what you*re really saying,
is this right?
MR. WALKER: If Your Honor --
THE WITNESS: I'm saying 18-82.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right. Go ahead.
A I'in saying 18-82, but surely within the assignment
of faculty members, any school administration ought to have
a three per cent flexibility.
Q All right. Go ahead.
A I see nothing wrong witli 18-82, and I see nothing
wrong with the next figure, which is, I think, 27 per cent
of the junior high school faculty is Negro -- I may be one or
two per cent off there -- and 73 per cent is white, while at
the elementary level, 35 per cent of the elementary faculty is
Negro and 65 per cent is white.
THE COURT: Are we talking about this year?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do those percentages fluctuate much over
the year?
446
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A They have fluctuated a little, butit's been pretty
inconsequential.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Go ahead, Mr. Parsons.
A In developing a plan for faculty desegregation, we
found considerable resistance to this plan among the employed
personnel in our school system. To say that teachers are
knocking on our door to experience this, quote, opportunity,
close quotes, would be an incorrect statement.
There has not been any desire expressed on the part
of either white or Negro teachers in large numbers to do this;
due to the fact that they feel that some discomfort in connection
with making this major change in faculty assignments, we feel
it encumbent upon us, since we operate on a single salary
schedule, since we operate on a single fringe benefit for all
of our teachers, since the high school teacher and the junior
high school and the elementary teacher all have identically
the same stature in our school system, that every teacher ought
to be treated the same way.
Since 82-18 would be perfect -- you could not get
more perfect than 82-18 at the high school level, and since we
feel that a three per cent flexibility is surely not unreasonable
because of the peculiar qualifications and peculiar requirement
of individual jobs, then we feel that the 15 per cent and the
85 per cent, as the maximum, ought to apply across the boara
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to all faculty members in the Little Rock Public School System.
Q Based upon the application of these standards, have
you made a computation as to actual numbers of faculty assign
ments for the 1969-1970 school year?
A Based upon the composition of our faculty in 1968-61,
yes.
Q I hand you what has been marked ns Defendant's Exhili
No. 24, and ask you what that is.
(The document was marked as Defen-
dent's Exbibit No.24 for identifi
cation.)
A This is a report prepared by the administration,
based upon the formula as set forth in the resolution, the
Defendant's Exhibit No. 23, showing the actual number of white
and Negro teachers and the number of transfers involved in
order to achieve the objective set forth in the resolution.
And, incidentally, it does more than that. I mean,
the figures as reflected here will show that where there, for
example, is a minimum of 15 per cent of each faculty, that
would be Negro, and a maximum of 45, that in many instances it
lias moved considerably above the ninumum; and where there is
a ininum of 55 per cent of each faculty to be white and a maxi
mum of 85 per cent, in many instances the minimum of 55 is
exceeded between the minimum and the maximum.
Q Let's be sure that this is an understandable exhibit
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Refer now specifically to Defendant's Exhibit 24.
You first state the standards from the standpoint of
15-45, 55-85, and then you get into exact numbers.
Go down to where the column runs across the top,
"School, 68-69, Teachers - 69-70, Teachers", and let's take an
run one column all the way across so we'll be sure everyone
understands these exhibits. Do you understand what I'm after?
A Yes.
Q All right. Take "Senior High school, Central."
A In 1968-69, there are vive Negro teachers teaching
in Central High School, there are 93 white teachers, for a
total of 98. In 1969-70, we would propose 14 Negro teachers,
78 white teachers, for a total of 92. There would be some I05
in enrollment -- this is couched in terms of the zoning plan.
The number of Negro teachers would be 14. The per
centage of Negro teachers would be 15 per cent; and the numbe
of white teachers would be 78; and the percentage of white
teachers would be 85. And this would mean that there would be
a plus nine Negro teachers and a minus 15 white teachers.
In other words, 15 white teachers would leave Centr:
High School either through the process of attrition or transfc
and there would be added to the staff nine Negro teachers in
order to achieve this. This is done for each school in the
system.
Q Your percentages would hit the exact criteria of 15
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Negro and 85 per cent white.
A In this school, it would,yes.
Q All right. Go to Mann, and do not read it across,
but just give the percentages to see how the percentages there
would fall within the requested range.
A Well, 29 per cent of the Mann faculty would be Negro
while 71 per cent of the faculty would be white under this pla
Q Well, the white, for example, would exceed the mini
mum 55 per cent by 16 per cent.
A Yes.
Q All right. Let's take a junior high school. Let’s
take the junior high school.
A Totals?
Q Pick out the outside ranges. For example, West Side
would be 20 per cent Negro, 80 per cent white?
A That’s correct. Forest Heights would be 19 per cent
Negro, 81 per cent white. Dunbar would be 43 per cent Negro,
57 per cent white. Booker would be 44 per cent Negro and --
Q All right, that’s enough.
Now, in the elementary where you testified actually
the percentages were closer to, I believe you said, 65-35 --
A Correct.
Q -- for clarification, do your actual projected per
centages run much closer to that than the 85-15 minimum?
A Yes.
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Q Mr. Parsons, we put in evidence at the first pro
ceeding as Defendant's Exhibit No. 4 your, quote, Plan for
Faculty Desegregation, Little Rock Public Schools.
I ara going to hand you this exhibit, and so that we
will have before the Court what we now propose, and ask you if
you will take a moment to look at it, and then make any state
ment concerning necessary changes in procedures that are going
to have to be followed to accomplish faculty assignment withir
the ranges requested.
Do you understand what I'm asking, now?
A Yes.
Q Take just a moment and look at it.
(The witness examined the document.)
When you are prepared to give your answer, I want
you to give it, but I wanted you again to look at the exhibit.
A It seems to me that the major change that would be
involved in it would be primarily the method of implementation
of the faculty desegregation j2an.
Q Why have you had to alter your proposed method of
implementation?
A At the tine that this was presented, there was a
plan to create a committee comprised of administrative per
sonnel and classroom teachers for the purpose of recommending
assignments to the Superintendent of Schools anu ultimately
to our School Board in connection with this.
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4 j 1
But because of the fact that the Classroom Teachers
Association voted merely to participate in the development of
guidelines for faculty desegregation and to not participate ii
any manner in the actual recommendation of faculty assignments
this plan which we had previously submitted will have to be
altered somewhat.
Q hell, the Teachers declined to participate, is that
right?
A That's correct.
Q All right. Are there any others? I want to the
record to be accurate, that's my point, Mr. Parsons. Are ther
any other deviations from that proposal that is in evidence as
Defendant's Exhibit No. 4 that you need to state so we will
have an accurate presentation in the record?
A Not that I know of.
Q All right, sir.
Tllli COURT: Suppose we take our recess until 11:00
o1 clock.
(A short recess was taken.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr. Parsons, refer again to Defendant's Exhibit No.
24. Do you have it before you?
A Yes, I do.
Q For the record, l want to make clear what you based
these figures on, and what might cause variations in these
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figures when ,you end up with actual assignments at the point
in time of September, 1969.
A These figures are based upon a projection of the
number of white and Negro teachers that would be in each schoo
in 1969-70, but it is based upon the number of white and Negrc
teachers who are currently employed in 1968-69 in the Little
Rock school system.
There is always, of course, the possibility -- it's
more than a possibility; it will be an actuality -- that there
will be attrition, of course, from our school system, and the
employment of individuals may not be in exactly the same ratio
that they are currently employed and working in our system.
Q Well, will this make any appreciable difference in
these figures? Do you understand what I'm asking?
A Yes, I understand.
Q And I don’t want an exact number.
A There would be some differentials, but if the plan
that has been submitted of the 15-45, 55-85, rest assured if
that is approved and ordered, that it will fall within that
Lnimum and maximum range.
We probbly could not, by any figment of the imagi
nation, develop exactly the same figures that we are filiig
with the Court at the preseit time.
THE COURT: I think I understand.
45.?
MR. FRIDAY: I think that clarifies it, Your Honor.
453
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right, now, a moment ago, you were testifying about
feeder systems. Are you now -- have you now refreshed your
recollection as to the variations - - I thought I had those
here --do you have them, Mr. Farsons?
A I probably have them.
Q All right, I want the record clear now. Go ahead
and finis}) your testimony on that. Go ahead and finish your
testimony on that as to the variations.
A May I refer to this?
Q Oh, certainly. Certainly.
A T'd previously pointed out that the Mann High School
on Exhibit No. 22 comprised the Dunbar Junior High and the
Booker Junior High districts, while the Central High School
District includes all of the West Side Junior High School
District and all of the Pulaski Heights Junior High School
District and part of the Southwest Junior High School District.
That part that we have specific reference to is the Meadow-
cliff Elementary District as identific - on the map down here
in the point colored red, while the Hall High School District
includes all of the Forest Heights Junior High School 3nd
part of the Henderson Junior High School District, not all of
it.
0 All right.
A And the Parkview District includes all of the Soutines*
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Junior High School District with the exception of Meadowcliff,
which has previously been identified, and part of the licndersc
Junior High School District.
Q Now, are those the variations?
A Those arc the variations from the feeder system, yes
Q Are there any other at any other levels, Mr. Parsons
A Yes, there probably would be some minor variations
at the elementary level in terms of developing a full feeder
system from elementary to junior high, yes.
Q But these can be ascertained by examining --
A Yes.
Q -- the lines that are there.
A Yes.
Q I said, for the record, feeder system. I meant
feeder aspect of this proposal.
All right, I referred a moment ago to the computatic
of students by number and race in the zones depicted on Exhibi
22. I now hand you a document marked for identification as
Defendant's Exhibit no. 25, and ask if you can identify this
document?
(The document was marked Defendant’
Exhibit No. 25 for identification.)
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, did they hand you one of
these?
454
THE COURT: Yes.
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BY MR. FRIDAY: ~ r"
Q What is this?
A Well, this is a -- these are tables showing the
actual number of white and Negro students based upon 196S-69
enrollment, and also showing projections for 1969-70 that woul
materialize on the basis of the zones identified in Exhibit
No. 22.
THE COURT: Mr. Friday, I notice in the characteri
zation at the end of each table of each of the three tables,
there is a reference to an accompanying map. Is that this
Exhibit 22?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, Your Honor.
For the record, the reference to the accompanying
map on Defendant's Exhibit No. 25 is Defendant's Exhibit No. 2
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I now offer this exhibit.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(The document heretofore marked fov
identification as Exhibit ?<o. 25
was received in evidence.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr. Easons, before we started into the specifics of
the plan, I asked you a question of your opinion, and you
gave it, that zoning was the only feasible alternative avail
able to the School District at this time.
I did not then ask you to elaborate as to why. I
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would now have you explain this plan, and I'd like to ask you,
based on all of your testimony, why the zoning plan is the onl
feasible available alternative?
A We studied the multitude of problems that face us
now and have faced us historically in Little Rock in connectic
with this matter; we find that there are certain constrictions
as to what can be done as we search for these solutions.
One of the restrictions has always been financial,
and it is finance at the present time. We know of no plan
that could be put into operation within the reasonably near
future in our school system that would not involve the expendi
tore of money other than a geographic zoning plan which would
actually make a more effective and a more efficient use of
existing physical facilities.
We know of no plan other than zoning that could be
administered in a more effective and a more impartial manner.
We feel that a zoning plan enables the administration of the
school system to identify every pupil in the District in terms
of where he is supposed to be going to school, and this enable
us to plan effectively and efficiently in terms of not only
the physical facilities required, but the number of and quali
fication of faculty members who should be employed in order tc
meet the needs of the students who are so eagerly identified
if they are zoned.
Q The plan embodies what has been referred to as the
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neighborhood school concept, is that correct?
A Yes. The plan does involve the neighborhood school
concept. Consequently, we would state that we subscribe to the
neighborhood schcd concept and we subscribe to the fact that
parents and patrons of any school will support and re-enforce
the activities of that school in relationship to the nearness
of the patrons to the school building itself.
We feel that zoning is an educationally sound plan
while certain other plans that we have thought of and have bet
t hought of for us have not in every instance been educational;
sound.
Q You participate in an agency known as Metroplan in
this area, Mr. Parsons?
A Yes.
Q What do you mean "you participate"?
A We participate by -- in effect -- by subscribing to
the services of Metroplan by paying a rather small pro rata
share of the local cost of the operation of this planning age:
isthin our community.
In return for this subscription, we receive all of
the reports of Metroplan and are requested periodically to
approve the overall planning design of our city as submitted 1
Metroplan.
Q Now, I want to hand you --
THE COURT: Maybe you should give a little dcscript
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of what it is. m
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q What is iMetroplan, Mr. Parsons?
A Metroplan is short for the Metropolitan Area Planning
Council. This is a joint-sponsored c ouncil that receives much
of its funds from planning grants that are awarded to it from
the Federal government. Agencies participating in terms of
annual contributions to Metroplan include Pulaski County and
the City of Little Rock, the Little Rock school system. North
Little Rock school system, Pulaski County Special School
District, and certain other areas on the periphery of Pulas!i
County, I believe, including Saline County.
The purpose of this organization is to study and
develop some effective planning, long-range planning, for this
area, largely concentrated on land use.
THE COURT: And perhaps to coordinate the planning
of the separate governmental divisions?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Right.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q I hand you a report, and ask you if on this report
entitled "Comprehensive Development Plan", and ask you if on
page two there is a listing of the Metropolitan Area Planning
Commission officers and participants?
A Yes, sir, there is.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, for the record -- are you
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familiar \tfith this, Mr. Walker?
MR. WALKER: I am not familiar with it, but I have
no objection to it.
MR. FRIDAY: Do you want to take a moment with me
and look at it? I want to take two items out of it. We have
n't had an opportunity to reproduce it.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we have no objection to the
introduction of the whole plan.
MR. FRIDAY: I haven't, either, Your Honor, but this
is certainly voluminous. I hadn't planned to offer the whole
thing.
THE COURT: Well, you might designate the portions
you think are pertinent.
MR. FRIDAY: Perhaps we can agree on it. I will
designate the portions I want, and you can designate on the
portions you want.
MR. WALKER: That will be fine.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, \̂ e will do this; and if I
could simply at this time tender that, with that reserved rig)
as Defendant's Exhibit No. 26, portions of this Metropolitan
Area Planning Commissions' report.
THE COURT: All right.
(The document heretofore referred
to was marked Defendant's Exhibit b
26 for identification, and was
received in evidence.)
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we have no objection to Mr.
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MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we have no o b je c t io n to Mr.
Friday o f f e r in g that and s t a t in g to the Court what he p u r p o r t ;
to have i t show.
THE COURT: I thought t h a t ’ s what he planned to do.
MR. FRIDAY: Based on h is statem en t, j u s t l e t me
s t a t e i t , Your Honor.
THE COURT: A l l r i g h t .
MR. FRIDAY: We wanted to put in the p re se n ta tio n rare
in t h is report o f standards o f school design and lo c a t io n w it!
the p r in c ip a l source being Metroplan i t s e l f , but with the
oth er i d e n t i f i e d sources as the American P ublic H ealth A sso c i -
3 t i o n ( N ation al Council on School House, Guide f o r Planning
School P la n t s , Peabody C o lle g e , N ational Education A s s o c i a t i o n ,
Environment Engineering f o r the S ch ool, U. S . Department o f
H e a lth , Education and W e lfa r e , and, o f c o u rse , M etrop o litan
Area Planning Commission School Location D i s t r i c t s .
The standards cover the fo l lo w in g : lo c a t io n and
oth er standards o f e lem entary , ju n io r high and se n io r h ig h ;
and cover th ese ite m s : d e s ir a b le walking radius to s c h o o l ,
lo c a t io n with re sp ect to type o f s t r e e t , d e s ir a b le p u p il capacL
per s c h o o l , number o f c la ssro o m s, d e s ir a b le s i t e acreage , pupil
per c l a s s , s i t e area used by b u ild in g s and parking f a c i l i t i e s ,
p lay a re a .
I w i l l reproduce by an appropriate method, and withou
reading a l l o f the in form ation under the various columns, Your
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Honor, and I will submit this together with those pages of tht
report that reflect the make-up of the Commission, its officei
and participants in this area as Defendant's Exhibit No. 26.
THE COURT:
the --
You do not now know the page numbers of
MR. FRIDAY: The page numbers of the standards of
school design and location -- the page number on which appear
the standards of school design and location is number 33.
The other page.that I would like to put in is page
number 2.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. FRIDAY:
time, Your Honor.
That is all I have on direct at this
THE COURT: Cross examination may proceed.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, may I have a quick minute?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I left out one point. I
have one formal thing, if you would permit me, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: All right.
MR. FRIDAY: I want to put in, Mr. Walker, as Defen
dant's Exhibit No. 27 the minutes of the School Board meeting
of November 15, 1968 that approved this plan.
(The document heretofore referred
to was marked Defendant's Exhibit
No. 27 for identification.^
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BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q I hand you, Mr. Parson^ what purports to be a complc
set of those minutes and ask if you can identify them?
A Yes.
MR. FRIDAY: I offer, Your Honor, Defendant's Exhibi
No. 27.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(The document previously marked as
Defendant's Exhibit No. 27 for ider
tification was received in evidence
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, did you have the benefit of the last
exhibit at -ihe time that you developed for presentation to the
School District your current plan which is before the Court
for consideration now?
A Printed in this comprehensive development plan of
Metroplan, the answer would be no. However, these standards,
as repeated in this, have been standards that I have seen
before in other publications.
Q I understand; but you did not have this particular
Metroplan proposal before you during the time that you made th
present proposal to the School District, is that true?
A I don't --
THE COURT: I don't think it was a plan.
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BY MR. WALKER:
q The Metroplan proposal at the tine they proposed th<
present desegregation plan for submission to the Court.
A The -- this particular booklet was not published at
tha t time, I believe.
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, have you been a regular recipient
of Metroplan publications?
A Yes.
Q Are you familiar with the fact that Metroplan publi
cations have pointed up community changes between 1957 and
1968, by not only race but economic?
A I'm not sure I understand what you mean by communit)
changes.
Q All right. Are you familiar with the fact that Meti
plan has repeatedly stated that the eastern part of Little
Rock is rapidly becoming all -- predominantly, if not all,
Negro, and that so is the central part of the city, while the
western part of the city is becoming predominantly white?
A No, I do not recall having read this in the Metro
plan publications.
Q You do receive all Metroplan publications, though.
A Yes.
Q Do you recall receiving a Metroplan publication in
January of 1963?
A No.
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Q You do not.
I should like to ask you whether or not you have
heard this statement before from any of your administration
staff or from any other person connected with Metroplan, and
they are referring to Census Tracts 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9,
10, and 11, which, as you know, includes this area of the
city.
"A massive population change has occurred in this
area over the last 12 years. The area declined in popu
lation from 53, 451 persons in 1950 to 41,995 persons in
1960, or a decrease of 21 per cent or 11,450 persons
over the decade. Of the total population in 1960, 27,309
persons were white and 14,686 were non-white . . .
"Major factors accounting for this decrease in popu
lation were the conversion of land from residential to
commercial uses, the acquisition of land for the inter
state freeway and interchanges and the movement of persons
from the older areas into newer areas of the city.
"Major redevelopment projects undertaken or planned
: during the past twelve years include the Livestock
project, High Street project, Central Little Rock project,
South End project and the East End project. Although
many of the areas are still in a state of transition,
it is believed that the decline in population has been
arrested and that it will remain stable over the
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future. Indications are that the white population is
steadily decreasing while the Negro population is steadiJ
increasing. This belief is based in part on a continuing
decline in white elementary school belonging averaging
about 80 pupils per year for the areas as a whole at the
same time Negro elementary school belonging is increasing
in Negro belonging necessitated the conversion of
Rightsell School from a white to a Negro school in 1961
''Current enrollment at Kramer, Parham, Mitchell
and Centennial is approximately the same as that for the
former combined five schools in the 1959-60 session.
This trend, if continued, may necessitate the conversion
of still another white school to a Negro school."
Did you have that information before you, Mr.
Parsons 7
A I do not recall it. I could not say what I have
read before, I don't recall everything that I have read. I
wish I could.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I would like for Mr. Frida)
to have an opportunity to examine that, which is a document
that was prepared by Metroplan.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, I want you to name -- I ask you tc
identify -- name and identify and set forth the racial, pupil
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and faculty composition of every school that has been construc
ted in Little Rock since your administration began.
A I do not understand your question.
Q Would you name each school that has been constructec
in Little Rock since you became Superintendent of Schools? I
think that was in 1961
A Parkview --
Q May I ask one question about this? Isn’t it true
that Parkview is located in an area which is overwhelmingly
white, with the population trend, to your knowledge, continuin
to be white families moving into that area and the Negro popu
lation, such as it is, remaining more or less constant?
A I could not react to that by saying yes or no, becau
I do not know what the trends are in this area.
Q You have not, as Superintendent, studied those trend
A No, I have not.
Q And you have not concerned yourself withthe racial
composition of the area.
A We are always concerned about racial composition, bu
in terras of going out and deciding that "here is a trend that
is developing, we are not capable of doing that.
Q Metroplan has studied it, though, have they not?
A I really do not know. They probably have.
Q But you have not received the benefit of their study
or you have not used it in preparing this plan, have you?
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A I f they have made a study - - a recent stu d y , we ha\
not used i t in the p rep aration o f t h is p lan .
Q You did not use a Metroplan study which se t fo rth
the r a c i a l com position o f that area at the time you s e le c te d
the p a r t ic u la r s i t e , i s th a t tru e?
A I'm sure th at we did a t that tim e .
Q Do you r e c a l l what the r a c ia l com position o f the
area was at th at time according to Metroplan?
A No, I do n o t .
Q Did you know y o u r s e l f g e n e ra lly what the r a c ia l
com position o f the area was as to whether t h is was a s u i ta b le
s i t e f o r Parkview School?
A We knew i t was somewhere between f iv e and ten per
cent o f the area populated by Negro f a m i l i e s .
Q Did you a lso know there was s u b s ta n t ia l su b d iv is io n
development in th a t area?
A No, I did n o t .
Q What are the oth er sch ools that have been con stru ct!
s in c e your a d m in istra tio n began?
A McDermott.
Q Would you lo c a te McDermott as being in the extreme
w estern p art o f the c i t y on R eservoir Road?
A R ig h t .
Q What i s the r a c i a l com position o f th a t a re a , Mr.
Parsons?
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A As far as I know, it is largely white.
Q Did you know of any Negroes who lived in that area
at the time you decided to construct that school?
A No, I did not.
Q What was the year that you decided to construct
that school?
A I do not recall. Probably three or four years ago.
Q All right. Now, hasn't that area undergone, since
the construction of that school, substantial increases in
lation?
A The school itself has certainly increased its popu-
lation, and I would assume that reflects the growth in the
area.
Q Has the racial composition of the McDermott School
substantially changed?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q So that this, doesn't it, reflects the fact that
large numbers of white people are moving into the area and th;i
no Negro families are moving into the area -- that is, famili<
who have school-age children?
A Not necessarily, since we do operate under freedom
of choice.
Q But really, do you know of any Negro families that
live in that area?
A No, I do not, no.
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Q You live out near that area, don’t you?
A Fairly near, yes.
Q Now, where are the other schools, Mr. Parsons, that
you have constructed?
A Western Mills.
Q All right, now. Let’s identify Western Hills. Thi:;
is in the extreme western part of the city.
A Yes.
MR. WALKER: You see it, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, I see it.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q All right. What is the racial composition of the
Western Hills area, Mr. Parson?
A I frankly do not know.
Q But you do know the pupil attendance at Western Hill,
is all white.
A No, I am not really aware of that.
Q All right, Mr. Parsons, I call your attention to
your figures that --
THE COURT: It shows six non-white.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Under your proposed geographic attendance area plan ,
what would be the number of Negroes in that school?
A Well, I believe that would be reflected in the reco :
THE COURT: It shows zero on Exhibit 25.
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THE WITNESS: All right.
BY MR .WALKER:
Q So that it’s rather clear, Mr. Parsons, that in the
area you have drawn around Western Hills, there are no Negro
pupils residing in that area.
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A All right.
Q Now, when you decided to locate Western Hills in th;
particular area, did you give any consideration to the fact
that there would be no Negroes in the area and only white
pupils?
A No, we didn’t.
Q You did not. You did not, in other words, design
this school for any purpose other than to accommodate the pup -
population then in that area.
A That's correct.
Q All right; so that this school was constructed on a
neighborhood school basis.
A That's correct.
Q And you know that it would be an all-white school,
if you had a geographical attendance area planned for that
school at that time.
A Say that again.
Q You knew that this school would be an all-white sch
in terms of school attendance patterns, at the time that you
constructed that school.
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Q You did start that as an all-white school, did you
not, Mr. Parsons?
A We just started it as a school, I believe, under
freedom of choice.
Q You did populate it with only white faculty members
at the time.
A I believe we did at the beginning, yes.
Q And you did the same thing with Western Hills, isn' :
that true?
A I think it probably is.
Q And McDermott?
A Probably.
Q So that they were actually started as white schools?
A hell, if a white school is defined as a school with
an all-white faculty, the answer would be yes. If it isn't,
it would be no.
Q All right, Mr. Parsons.
Now, would you tell me the other schools that you
started during your administration?
A I -- Gilliam.
Q Identify this school as Gilliams, and it's in the
extreme eastern part f the city in an area near what is known
as the Booker Homes Housing project, is that correct?
>*•
A Yes.
Q I see. And what was the racial composition of that
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I believe I testified previously that we didn't eve;
take this into consideration. We constructed the school when;
the pupils were, regardless of race.
Q All right, Mr. Parsons, what are the other schools
you have constructed since you have been here?
A Terry.
Q All right. Where is Terry located? Is it, would
you say, in the extreme western part of the city?
A More west than McDermott.
Q Does this map reflect development in the areas --
that is, in terms of residential development?
A I doubt that it does.
Q Isn't it true, though, that at the time Terry Schoo
was located, that particular site was located, that you did
not have more than a dozen families, more or less, withir̂ say
a dozen blocks of Terry School?
A I'm not sure that this would be true, but it was a
sparsely settled area at the time that the site was acquired.
Q Isn't it true that Metroplan had predicted that are.
would be an area of expansion, that eventually you would need
an elementary school in the area?
A Yes.
Q Did you take into consideration what the probable
racial composition of that area was?
A No, we did not.
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area at the time, as you knew it, Mr. Parsons?
A I would assume that it was largely Negro, if not al]
Negro.
Q Did you give any consideration to locating that
school someplace else to promote the concept of integration?
A No, we did not.
Q Did you open this as a Negro school?
A It placing in that school an all-Negro faculty woult
indicate that it wwas an all-Negro school, yes, but I believe
-- well, it was opened in the days of pupil assignment and
then moved into freedom of choice.
Q All right. What was the capacity of that school at
the time, Mr. Parsons?
A Oh, I do not recall. I believe it had twelve class
rooms. Still has the same number.
Q So it was built to accommodate between 150 and 250
pupils, is that true?
A I’d say -- I'd say you're a little low on that, but
it --
Q I think, Mr. Parsons, that the capacity is listed
in your plan, your proposed plan, as 364, but the present
enrollment is 213.
A All right.
THE COURT: What is the name of that school?
THE WITNESS: Gilliam. I thought your capacity was
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Q What are the other schools, Mr. Parsons, that you have
constructed?
A Henderson Junior High School.
Q And where is that located, Mr. Parsons? In the
extreme western part of the city near Brady Elementary School ’
A Right.
Q Did you know what the pupils' living pattersn were
at the time you constructed that school there?
A I’m not sure I know what you mean by living pattern:;
Q Did you know that all the pupils who lived in that
particular area were white?
A No, I didn't know that, and I'm not sure that they
were.
Q But you do know that -- how far from Henderson do
you live, Mr. Parsons?
A Oh, a couple of miles, probably. A mile and a half
Something like that. By road.
Q All right. If you had junior high school age child:*i
under your present plan, would they be in the Henderson Junior
High School attendance area?
A They would, yes, I believe they would.
Q All right, Mr. Parsons. You do then have familiari ;;
with the residential patterns around Henderson?
A Yes, I do.
Q And would you concede that area is an all-white area*
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BY MR. WALKER:
Q But this school will have only 159 pupils under
your proposed plan?
A If that’s what the table shows, that’s right.
Q So doesn't that indicate, Mr. Parsons, you didn’t
really need to construct a new school and that you had the
alternative of perhaps expanding the existing capacity?
A That’s entirely possible. We've thought of this
many times.
Q Isn't it true that by building additional schools,
the District incurred some additional expenses, such as havin,;
to have an administrative staff for that school which is an
expense that will be recurring from year to year?
A There are always additional expenses incurred in cop
nection with opening up a new school, yes.
Q Did you take that factor into consideration when yoii
made the decision to not expand any of the existing facilities
rather than --
A At the time that Gilliam School was built, there
was no consideration given to the expansion of the school,
the existing facilities.
Q And there was also no consideration given to placin ;
Gilliam so as to promote the concept of desegregation.
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low.
A There was not.
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With perhaps a fragment of --
A Oh, let's say it's predominantly white, and I would
agree with you, yes.
Q Predominantly white. Would you say, Mr. Parsons,
that at the time you located that school there, as much as
five per cent of the total population was Negro?
A Probably not. However, I made no analysis of it to
determine that.
Q So you did not place Henderson there in an effort
to promote
A No, we didn’t.
Q --a unified school system.
A No, we did not. We just built the building where
the pupils were.
Q Or were expected to be?
A That's correct.
Q Now, what are the other schools that you have con
structed, Mr. Parsons, since you have become Superintendent?
A Do you have one in mind?
Q What about Booker?
A Yes, Booker Junior High. The site was purchased, I
believe, prior to the time that I became Superintendent, but
I was Superintendent at the time that the contract was let
and the building was built.
Q Are you familiar with the fact that the area around
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a year?
A I think this is true.
Q Isn t it true also that there was another white
junior high school on the eastern part of town within a dozen
blocks of Booker Junior High School known as East Side Junior
High School?
A There was at one time.
Q And that you closed that school rather than repair
it, and opened at the same time Booker Junior High School?
A Yes.
Q And that all of the black pupils, numbering 19, wer<
assigned from the East Side Junior High School to the Booker
Junior High School, and that all the white pupils attending
East Side Junior High School were assigned to other white
schools in the city?
A This may be true. I do not recall that this occurr
but it may be true.
Q Isn't it also true that at the time you opened Book
you did not transfer any of the white faculty members from th
East Side school to the Booker Junior High School?
A That is correct.
Q But that you did transfer a number of them to the
Henderson Junior High School?
A
Q
That is correct.
All right. Did you make a conscious effort at that
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Boomer, which you have set forth here, is predominantly Negro"
A I'm sure that it is.
Q Are you also familiar with the fact that that is an
area which has been a transitional area for several years?
A No.
Q You are not familiar with that fact?
A No.
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, you did, in your Parsons Report,
set forth that that was an area in transition. Do you recall
that?
A You have not defined for me what you mean, transitio
from what to what?
Q I believe you said this was an area which was in
transition in this manner, that white people were moving out
of the area, and they were being replaced by Negro people,
and this reflects a decline in the number of white pupils who
live in that particular section of town.
A Well, I do not wish to quibble about this. I do no:
recall having said that, but if I did, I will accept it.
Q You did know that this would be a Negro school at
the time.
A Oh, yes. Yes.
Q And isn’t it true that at the time you opened Booker
as a junior high school, you almost simultaneously opened
Henderson as a junior high school, within, say, six months to
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time to integrate Booker and Henderson, or Booker and the
East Side pupil population?
A No, there was no conscious effort to do this.
Q Now, was Booker Junior High School named for a Negr<
citizen?
A Yes.
Q I see. For whom was Henderson Junior High School
named?
A A white citizen.
Q All right. And for whom was the Terry School named
A A white citizen.
Q Is that Mrs. D. D. Terry or her family?
A The family, yes.
Q All right. Now, you also, isn't it true, Mr. Parso;
started another Negro school known as the Ish School in the
southeastern part of the city of Little Rock near Fourche Dam
or whatever you call the dam?
A We built a school building there, yes.
Q And isn't it true that when we had the hearing here
before in 1965, that you stated to the Court that you had not
identified your pupil population for that area?
A That's correct.
Q And that you didn't know whether it was a Negro
school or a white school?
A I'm not sure that this is what I said.
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Q All right, Mr. Parsons, let me refresh your recollection
A All right.
THE COURT: What hearing is that, Mr. Walker?
MR. WALKER: This is the hearing before Your Honor
on January 5, 1965.
THE COURT: It is not in this case?
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we have sought to incorpor; t
by reference the proceedings from the Clark case without going
back into these Aaron and all the other cases, because Clark
and this case, as we understood it, were more or less related,
THE COURT: That’s true.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I am going to object to this
for this reason. It is irrelevant to the issues before the
court to go back into evidence that was developed prior to th(
Clark decision in this case, and we object to it for this
*
reason; and if it is admitted, Your Honor, it will prompt a
good deal of elaboration on our part as to some of these issue s
particularly the East Side assignments.
THE COURT: When you are referring to the decision,
you are referring to the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, the decision in the Clark case in
the Court of Appeals, Your Honor, yes.
THE COURT: I think we did start a new day as to
that, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I think the Court of Appeals
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indicated that contrary to the views of some -- I think they
were referring to counsel at the time -- that this School
District is bound by all of the prior orders of this Court.
THE COURT: Well, of course it is.
MR. WALKER: And then also bound by any decisions
that may have been --
THE COURT: We are not going back into all that.
MR. WALKER: We are not concerned with that, Your
Honor. What we are trying to do now --
THE COURT: If you want to refresh his memory about
a specific thing, you may do so.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
THE COURT: But there is nothing specifically in th
record except the hearing in August and the hearing this week
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor. We will, of
course, proffer the full transcript of the Clark hearing in
1965.
THE COURT: It will be denied.
MR. WALKER: I understand; but as a proffer, Your
Honor, we will at the proper time seek to have it placed in
here.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, may I ask whether or not you have
ever stated that you, in 1965, had under contract and in the
process of construction an unnamed school, elementary school,
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at 30th and Pulaski Streets?
A If it says that's what I said, I said it, I'm sure,
Mr. Walker.
Q At the time, Mr. Parsons --
A I don't recall it, but I'm sure I did.
Q -- were you at the time, Mr. Parsons, aware of the
pupil population of that particular area?
A Not as aware of it as I am at the present time.
Q I see. But you did decide to open Ish as a Negro
school, isn't that true?
A Originally, we decided to open it with a Negro
faculty and Negro student body, so it was a Negro school, yes,
Q And you also named it for a Negro citizen.
A That's true. Yes.
Q And isn't it true that at the time you opened Ish,
you had in the central part of the city near Centennial Schoo
a school known as Capitol Hill Elementary School?
A Yes.
Q Which was attended only by Negro pupils.
A Yes, that’s right.
Q And that you closed Capitol Hill and dispersed the
pupils who attended Capitol Hill to only Negro schools within
the area?
A That's correct.
Q And you assigned them without giving them a freedom
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of choice, initially?
A That's correct.
Q All right. So that this is one of the ways in whic \
you got the initial Ish pupil body?
A Correct.
Q Now, did you at the time that you -- that the Schoo .
District closed the Capitol Hill school site, which is between,
would you say, Centennial and Gibbs, having those Negro pupil;
who were in Capitol Hill assigned to Centennial and to other
predominantly white schools within the area?
A I lost your question.
Q Did you consider assigning the Negro Capitol Hill
students to Centennial and other white schools in the area?
A I'm reasonably sure we did not.
Q All right; so that you consciously created Ish as
a Negro school.
A On the contrary, I'd say we unconsciously created
it. We didn’t take the race into consideration. We just
built the school where the pupils were.
Q But in filling that school, though, Mr. Parsons, yo i
did take race into consideration, isn't that true?
A Only originally, but then we went back and offered
freedom of choice at the direction of the Court.
Q But that was only after the plaintiffs in that cas }
A That's correct.
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Q -- filed another lawsuit against the school.
A That's correct.
Q And the effect of that, of course, was to leave Ish
and the other Negro schools as Negro schools.
A The effect of the lawsuit?
Q No, the effect of the re-assignment procedure that
you adopted pursuant to the Court’s directive.
A Suffice it to say that under freedom of choise, it h
continued to be populated by Negro pupils,yes.
Q Do you have any other sites, Mr. Parsons, whereby
the School District presently proposes to locate schools?
A We own only two sites on which no construction has
been initiated.
Q What are those two sites, Mr. Parsons?
A There is a site committed to purchase on West 12th
Street in the University Park Urban Renewal area. There is a
site that has been purchased in the Pleasant Valley area.
Q I see. Now, the Pleasant Valley area site includes
how many acres, Mr. Parsons?
A I believe it’s twenty.
Q Now, has the District committed its funds for that
purchase?
A Well, we have purchased the site.
Q Oh, you have purchased the site.
A We have purchased the si .e.
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Q And you purchased the site before there was a suf
ficient number of pupils living within that area.
A We surely did, yes.
Q YOu surely did.
Now, Mr. Parsons, to your knowledge, what is the
present racial composition of Pleasant Valley?
A As far as I know, it is white.
Q And what is the present economic status of the neigi
b orhood, as you know it?
A I'm sure it‘s above middle class.
Q Upper middle class.
A Yes.
Q Now, isn’t it true that in the Pleasant Valley area
where you have a site selected, that you do not have, to your
knowledge, any Negro persons residing? And I am including the
subdivisions here of not only Pleasant Valley, but Robinwood
and Walton Heights.
A To my knowledge, I know of no Negro families living
in this area.
Q So that if this site does, in fact, be used for an
elementary schoool,it will be all-white pupil attended school*
A On the basis of the present population, the answer,
as far as I know, would be yes; but again, I'm no expert on
what is going to happen in housing patterns in our city in tin
future.
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Q All right, Mr. Parsons. Now, did you purchase this
site with the idea in mind of promoting the concept of pupil
integration or bringing about a unified school system?
A The answer is no; but had you asked about segregatioi
the answer also would have been no.
Q Nor -- you didn't consider race?
A No.
Q Nor did you consider history?
A We did not.
Q Now, isn't it true also that in the last three year;
Mr. Parsons, the School District has annexed certain areas to
the city -- that is, the School District?
A Yes.
Q And those areas include Candlewood and Walton Heigh :
A Yes.
Q Are there any other areas out west?
A I think not.
Q Now, I point to the extreme tip of this area here,
the northwestern tip, and ask if that is the Candlewood area?
A Well, yes, the Candlewood area, I assume; if it is
in reality drawn on this map, that's where it would be.
Q Now, was there an effort made by the developers of
the Candlewood area to have the area included within the Litt
Rock School District prior to the development of that area?
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A Yes.
Q And was it stated to the School District that bring:
the Candlewood area into the Little Rock School District wouli
help them to promote sales in the area?
A No, it was never so stated to me.
Q Do you remember Mr. J. Wythe Walker making a present:
tion to the School Board in 1966 where he made a statement
such as that?
A He may well have done so, and the minutes would
reflect that, I would assume; but I do not recall that anyone
ever said that "this will help us to develop the area".
Q Isn’t it true that the Little Rock School District
is considered by many educators in the State to be the State':;
leading school district?
A Yes.
Q All right. And it is desirable for pupils and thei
parents to locate within the Little Rock School District, is
that true?
A I think this is true, yes.
Q Isn't it true, also, that a large number or that
some of the areas lying within the Little Rock School Distric
is actually outside the city limits of Little Rock?
A Yes, this is true.
Q And the Candlewood area is one of those areas?
A It probably is. I really don't know.
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488
Q The area for identification purposes that I am desc;*
ing would be along Highway 10 at the extreme tip of your map,
is that true?
A You're talking about Walton Heights?
Q Walton Heights and Candlewood.
A Yes.
Q In terms of proximity, you have a developed Negro ar
known as Pankey in closer proximity to McDermott School than
Candlewood is.
A This is entirely possible, yes.
Q But you have drawn lines or permitted lines to be
drawn through annexation around Pankey so as to exclude Pankc
from the the Little Rock School District.
A Well, not really around it. They were just not
deluded in the resolution or the petition that was presented
to us.
Q So that to the east -- tothe south of the Candlewooc
area and the Walton Heights area, I ask you is the Pankey
Addition located?
A Yes.
Q And that it is a predominantly Negro area --
A Yes.
Q -- which is within the County School District.
A Right.
Q And there is, to your knowledge, a Negro school in
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Pankey, isn't there?
A Yes.
Q And if those pupils in Candlewood and Walton Heights
had not been brought within the Little Rock School District,
they would be in closer proximity to the Pankey School than
they would have been to any other school?
A That's probably true. However, I'm not well acquain
ted with the location of Pulaski County's scholl buildings.
Q I see. But you do know that there is no other
school in close proximity.
A I would certainly think there wouldn't be.
THE COURT: Let's take our noon recess now.
MR. WALKER: May I just ask one more question to ge-;
this closed out?
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, isn't it true that the Gilliam School
was named for a Negro citizen, too?
A Yes.
THE COURT: We will take a recess until 1:15.
(Whereupon, at 12:00 o'clock, the above-entitled
proceedings were in recess, to reconvene at 1:15 o'clock, p.m
the afternoon of the same day.)
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490
AFTERNOON SESSION
1:15 p.ra.
THE COURT: All right, gentlemen.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I would like to again
state that the transcript that I wanted to make reference to
is relevant for the reason that I did not clearly articulate
before, and the reason is that this is the Delores Clark case
and this --
THE COURT: I understand.
MR. WALKER: --is just merely a continuation of
that case.
THE COURT: The posture of this case has changed
several times.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we are talking about the
planning, though, of the District to eliminate the pre-existit
dual school system.
THE COURT: Well, you can take it up with me at
some recess.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I have attempted, for the Court of
Appeals -- I do not want this case to get in a situation that
nobody knows what this record is.
MR. WALKER: Yes, Your Honor.
Thereupon,
FLOYD W. PARSONS
491
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1 having previously been called as a witness, and previously duly
sworn, resumed the stand and was examined and testified further
as follows:
RECROSS EXAMINATION - Resumed
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, has the enrollment of the Little Rock
School District increased materially between 1965 and the
present?
THE COURT: What was the second word?
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Has the enrollment of the Little Rock School District
increased materially between 1965 and 1968?
A Not materially.
Q I have already introduced as Defendant's Exhibit 4 a
statement which is marked for identification as Plan for Faculty
Desegregation, Little Rock Public Schools; and on page one of
that, I show you Table No. 1, which sets out that in 1965-66,
there was a total pupil enrollment of 23,811.
A All right.
Q And that in 1968-69, the present school year, there
would be an enrollment of 24,715. Is that correct?
A I'm sure that is correct.
Q All right. Mr. Parsons, what in 1965 was the cffici
capacity, as you recall it, of Central High School?
A Oh, probably, two thousand -- twenty-one hundred,
one
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492
maybe twenty-two hundred. I'm not sure.
Q What was the efficiency capacity of Hall High School?
THE COURT: Are you talking about --
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure that I know what you mean
by efficiency capacity.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, there is an exhibit in,
Exhibit 8, which I will hand to the Court, and I will give Mr.
Parsons a copy of it, which uses the term "efficiency capacity'.
I don't know what efficiency capacity means. I pre
sume that Mr. Parsons knows what it means because he uses it.
THE WITNESS: I don't know exactly what it means.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q That is your Exhibit No. 8, is it not?
A I haven't seen it. (Document handed to witness.)
Q All right.
Do you recall having seen that document before, Mr.
Parsons?
A Yes.
Q Would you say that the figures contained therein are
the figures that you compiled?
A About the school system, yes.
THE COURT: That would be as of what time?
MR. WALKER: As of 1965, Your Honor.
Your Honor, Defendant's Exhibit No. 5 was introduced
in 1965, and it was introduced by Mr. Friday, to use the terms
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of the description here, to show what the racial composition of
each school would be if at that time non-overlapping attendance
districts were created at all levels.
THE COURT: You are talking about Defendant's Exhibit
No. 5?
MR. WALKER: No. 8. That is the one you have there,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q At that time, Mr. Parsons, you stated that the effici
ency capacity of Central High School was 2,400; Hall High School
1,400; and Mann, 1,400, for a total high school efficiency
capacity of 5,200.
A All right.
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, since 1965, what changes have
occurred in the total number of high school pupils that you have
attending the high schools in Little Rock?
A I really do not know.
Q If I told you, Mr. Parsons, that at present you have
5,118 pupils in all the high schools, with Metropolitan excluded,
would you say that would be reasonably accurate?
A I would say that it would be, yes.
Q All right. So that in 1965, with three schools --
three high schools -- you could have accommodated all the high
school pupils in the District.
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494
A On the basis of efficiency capacity.
Q That's right.
Now, isn't it true that you had instructions to
increase the capacity at Horace Mann High School since 1065?
A I doubt this is the case. We would have to go back
to the records and determine when this addition to Horace Mann
was completed.
Q You don't recall it?
A I do not, but I can assure you that Horace Mann did
not have a capacity of 1400 students prior to the time of the
completion of the addition.
Q All right.
A So it must have been completed when that report was
made, or anticipated.
Q Now, there has been some additional construction at
Central High School, has there not?
A Well, a library, yes.
Q Is that the new facility which has just been completed
A Yes.
Q I see. That will make the new efficiency capacity
slightly greater.
A No. On the contrary. Not the construction of the
library, but on the contrary, the efficiency capacity, using
this terminology, is perhaps less at Central High School now
than in 1965.
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Q I s e e . V.'hat fa c t o r s cause you to come to that con
c lu s io n ?
A Due to the f a c t that certa in innovative programs have
been introduced in to Central High School . I ’ m ta lk in g about
ranging from the i n s t a l l a t i o n of language la b o r a to r ie s to the
removal o f p a r t i t i o n s in classrooms to permit team teach in g ,
the in tro d u c t io n o f an ROTC or AFROTC u n i t , using a large area
o f the b u i ld in g to house th is p a r t ic u la r u n i t .
So the actual c a p a c ity , in terms o f the number o f
s t u d e n ts , i s l e s s now than i t was at one time.
Q You p r e s e n t ly have e nro l led in Central High School
2 ,0 5 4 p u p i l s .
A A l l r i g h t .
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, in 196S, was there a need f o r the
c o n s tr u c t io n o f a new ju n io r high school to replace West Side
Junior High School?
A In 1965?
Q Y es .
A I think the need has not been o f f i c i a l l y i d e n t i f i e d ,
but there i s l i t t l e doubt in my mind but that the need was the*
because t h i s was an o ld b u i ld in g .
Q I s e e . Was there a need to r e l ie v e the pressure o f
pupil enrollment at Dunbar School at that time?
A I do not know. I do not know what the enrollment o f
Dunbar was.
Q But you d id , during that y e a r , r e l i e v e the enrollment
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IS
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496
at Dunbar because you opened the Booker Junior High Sch ool ,
i s that c o r r e c t ?
A Y e s , t h a t ' s tr u e .
Q A l l r i g h t . Now, at the t in e that you opened the
Booker Junior High S chool , did you give any con sid era tion to
the f a c t that West Side needed replacing and that i t would be
f e a s i b l e , in order to bring about a u n i f i e d school system, to
have a new school constructed within the West Side area?
A As I r e c a l l , no consideration was given to r e p la c e
ment o f West S id e .
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, would you i d e n t i f y the other schoo
that are p r e s e n t ly in operation which are in need o f r e p la c e
ment which have been i d e n t i f i e d by you as being d i la p id a t e d or
having o u t l i v e d t h e i r u se fu ln e ss?
A Bush Elementary School .
Q A l l r i g h t .
A Wo have proposed fo r some time the phasing out o f
Bush Elementary School , perhaps to be accompanied with the
phasing out o f Parham and Kramer, and the c o n stru c t io n o f a nev'
large elementary school in th is cen tra l area to serve an
in te g r a t e d population as i t e x i s t s in t h i s p a r t i c u l a r area.
THE COURT: I do not see Bush on E xhib it 25 .
THE WITNESS: W e l l , Bush, under our zoning p la n , Your
Honor, i s to be phased out .
BY MR. WALKER:
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Q
497
Are you sa y in g , Mr. Parsons, that Parham and Kramer
should be phased o u t , too?
A I'm saying that when funds are a v a i la b le that the
student body that i s c urrent ly e nro l led in Bush could be combin
with the two student bodies at Parham and Kramer, and good,
c r e a t i v e , in no vativ e elementary school in t h i s se ct io n o f the
c i t y could be b u i l t to accommodate th is student body.
Q I s e e .
A But to say that the building i s d i lap id ated - - and. I
b e l ie v e t h i s i s the term you used - - I would not say t h a t .
Q But you have i d e n t i f i e d that as a school which i s in
need o f replacement at t h i s t ime, those two schools - -
A Y e s , I think they should be replaced.
Q You have a lso i d e n t i f i e d West Side as a school that
i s in need o f replacement.
A Y e s .
Q Now, what other schools have you i d e n t i f i e d as being
in need o f replacement at th is time?
A I'm not sure that I have i d e n t i f i e d any o t h e r s . I f
you have a - - I do not think - - I c e r t a i n ly have i d e n t i f i e d
some in need o f r e p a i r s .
Q Did you not i d e n t i f y P f i e f e r as a school which sho
be replaced?
A I did at one time, y e s , but I ’ m not sure th a t T f ie
School should be rep laced . I t depends now to a c e r t a in extent
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on the -- the future of Pfiefer School depends to a certain
extent on the implications of the Model Cities Program.
Q I see.
Now, Mr. Parsons, with regard to Pfiefer, is that
school presently overcrowded?
A In terras of
Q The basic facility.
A Seriously overcrowded.
Q Seriously overcrowded. Have you afforded those stu
dents who are enrolled in that school, who are subjected to
the overcrowded conditions, a second choice of schools?
A The second choice, of course, is always available to
them.
Q Have you advised them that the school is overcrowded
and that they may apply -- that they may have a second choice?
A Because of the difficulties that these children would
experience in terms of transportation, we have made every effor
to provide for their convenience by placing portable buildings
adjacent to the permanent buildings at Pfiefer.
Q You have not sought to assign then on a residential
proximity basis -- the overflow, the ones who are in the over
crowded condition.
A Well, there is not an overcrowded condition there
simply because the portable buildings are located there.
Q How many portables do you have there, Mr. Parsons?
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A Oh, I'll say five, but I'm not sure.
Q Now, isn't it true that you also have portables at a
school within a few blocks of Pfiefer? The Carver School?
A I believe we have one there at Carver.
Q Two?
A Maybe two. I'm not sure.
Q Now, you did not afford those pupils a second choice,
either, did you?
A Well, the portable buildings are used, I believe, for
special purposes. I'm talking about remedial reading, speech
therapy, and this type of program.
Q Mr. Parsons, have not you previously identified Cen
tennial as a school which should be replaced?
A I’m not sure that I have.
Q You don't remember.
A No, I do not.
Q In the Parsons Report, did not you identify Mitchell
as a school in need in replacement?
A I do not recall that we did.
Q But you may have. I'm asking.
A No, I do not recall at all that we did.
Q Now, about West Side, isn’t it true that the students
who would attend West Side Junior High School have almost no
play area, that the site is approximately four acres and that
the school structure occupies almost all of that area?
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500
Yes, a very limited play area, other than indoor play
area. There is a gymnasium.
Q Isn't it true, though, that on the other hand, accor
ding to the Oregon Report, the junior high schools that have
been constructed in the western part of the city has at least
fourteen acres of land at every one of them?
A Well, this is certainly true in connection with Hen
derson and it's true in connection with Forest Heights; South
west, there is an elementary school, of course, constructed on
the same campus with Southwest Junior High School.
Q All right.
A This would probably be a true statement.
Q Isn't it also true that you have approximately six
acres at Dunbar?
A I actually do not know.
Q Isn't it true, though, that in terms of access to ant
from Dunbar, there is a major traffic artery which runs right
in front of the Dunbar School? Namely, Wright Avenue.
A Yes, Wright Avenue runs in front.
Q And that you do not have such conditions existing
around any of the white schools -- the formerly white schools?
A No, I could not say yes to that.
Q All right. At Henderson, you do not have a major
traffic artery around there, do you?
A Well, John Barrow Road is quite major, I would say.
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Q But it's not major to the extent that Wright Avenue
is, is it?
A I really do not know, not having made a traffic count.
Q You hav en't studied that traffic problem.
A No, I have not.
Q All right.
Now, Mr. Parsons, do you recall that I appeared befoie
the Board before the Parkview School contract was let and askec
the District not to construct Parkview School because of the
fact that at that time you had a large number of school, class
room seats unoccupied at Horace Mann High School?
A You have stated this to me previously, and I do not
doubt but that you may have done it; but you ask if I recall it.
No, I do not.
Q But it is true, though, that at the time you con
structed Parkview School, you had a large number of vacant
classrooms in the Horace Mann School building, at least 400?
I'll put it another way, Mr. Parsons. What is the
enrollment at Horace Mann High School?
A Last year?
Q Yes.
A Slightly in excess of 800, I believe.
Q I think your figures show 801, Mr. Parsons.
A I think it’s S02, but we'll not quibble around that.
Q All right. Now, this would mean that if Horace Mann
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had an efficiency capacity of 1400 and you had 801 pupils there
last year at the time Parkview was constructed, you had 600
vacant class seats at Horace Mann, isn't that true?
A By that analysis, that's true.
Q All right.
A I m not sure that the analysis is correct because we
have expanded programs, have introduced team teaching, some
programmed instruction, some automated equipment in rooms not
only at Central, as we identified previously, but also in our
other high schools. Those programs do consume more space than
normal programs consume.
Q You consider, then, that it would be more --it would
meet a greater need to build a new high school than it would to
use those funds for the construction of a junior high school,
is that true?
THE COURT: Now, they are in different sections of
the city entirely, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, our position is that previou
testimony in this case indicates there is a conflict as to
whether Parkview was to have been opened as a junior high schoo
a senior high school, or as a school.
I think Dr. C.oldhammer*s testimony was that they said
the District needs new schools, and that they could go ahead
with that because of the fact that they needed schools, but
they did not specifically endorse that site as a high school
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site. So I am trying to demonstrate to the Court here that th s
School District has rais-used District funds and built a new
school
THE COURT: Aren't those schools eight or ten miles
apart?
MR. WALKER: Which schools?
THE COURT: Horace Mann and Parkview.
MR. WALKER: Perhaps so, Your Honor. But they are
denying that at all times up until 1957, there was just one
high school in this whole district, and that pupils, regardless
of where they lived -- maybe eight miles -- but pupils, regard
less of where they lived, had to attend Central High School if
they were white, or Dunbar if they were Negro. So that the
distance should not be really a relevant factor.
THE COURT: Now, that's a matter not --
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor, but I just want
to show there was no demonstrated need at the time that Parkvisi
was built for a new high school.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Isn’t it true, though, Mr. Parsons, that at present
you have vacant classrooms — not classrooms, but you have unds
used classrooms at Horace Mann High School?
A I'm sure this is true.
Q All right. And isn't it true that you could have
taken the number of pupils who attend the Parkview School in
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grade ten and placed then into Horace Mann High School and not
caused an overcrowded situation to exist in any high school in
the city?
A No, I do not think that this is true?
Q And if, Mr. Parsons, just using arithmetic, you had
put 350 -- and that's the number of pupils in the tenth grade
if you had put 350 more pupils in the Horace Mann School, woulc
you have had overcrowded conditions?
A No, probably not.
Q All right.
A But that was not your original question. To put then
in there, this would have involved either transportation or a
great difficulty on the part of students in terms of transpor
tation.
Q All right. Isn't it true, though, Mr. Parsons, that
historically, youngsters who live in this area to the west of
Parkview School, in an area known as John Barrow Addition, havu
been bussed by the District all the way across to Horace Mann
High School?
A No, this is not true at the present time, nor has it
been for several years.
Q But it was in 1965 and 1966?
A Yes, it was.
Q And 1966-67?
A No, I'm not sure about that part of it.
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Q You don’t know that it was --
A It was in 1965.
Q You don't know whether it was in 1966-677
A No, I do not.
Q All right, Mr. Parsons, do you know whether any of
your predecessors ever made a statement to the effect that
Central High School will accommodate 2500 to 2600 students?
A No, I do not.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I cite to the Court 143 Fed
Supp 861.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, do you still agree that most of th<
school buildings in Little Rock were constructed with the view
to perpetuating segregation rather than implementing desegre
gation?
A Yes.
Q Do you still agree that school buildings are located
as focal points in identified communities?
A Yes.
Q Do you still agree that this means that a Negro com
munity has a school so located in relationship to it that it
is sensible for Negro children, the children in that community,
to attend that school, the same as is true for white communitit
A Only when sensible is placed in quotes.
Q That's right. Mr. Parsons, do you still agree that
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there has been a constant shift of Negro pupils from the all-
Negro schools to predominantly white schools under the freedom
of choice plan?
A Yes.
Q And that there has not been a corresponding shift of
white pupils to Negro schools?
A Yes.
Q All right. Do you agree that this presents a buildii,
problem, and that as fewer and fewer Negroes enroll in the
Negro schools, the effective buildings are used with less effi
ciency at the same time more and more facilities must be built
to accommodate the --
A Oh, yes. Yes.
Q Now, doesn't this mean, Mr. Parsons, that as Negro
pupils left Negro schools, under the freedom of choice plan,
those buildings became under-utilized?
A Yes.
Q And that the District, instead of using those buil
dings to capacity by assigning white pupils to them, that the
District chose instead to build new schools to meet the expand*
population?
A We built new schools under the freedom of choice plat
The zoning plan, as presented here today, will tend to effecti
and efficiently use those very same buildings about which you
are speaking.
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Q All right.
Now, Mr. Parsons, let me give you a hypothetical
proposition. Assume that you, as a professional educator, had
all or almost all of the Negro population on one side of Little
Rock and all or almost all of the white population living on
the other side of Little Rock, and you wanted to achieve --
you don't have any schools, now, to begin with -- but you want
to place some schools so as to achieve the results of segregate
pupil enrollment. How would you do that? What are the avail
able ways for achieving segregation in pupil attendance pattern
A Since I have never had to deal with a hypothetical
case like that, I do not know how it could be done.
Q What is the obvious result, Mr. Parsons, as an edu
cator? You have been qualified as an educator by your counsel,
A The obvious result of a community that has housing
patterns of this nature that you're identifying?
Q Yes.
A Why, I suppose it would be a segregated community.
Q Now, if you wanted -- the hypothetical goes to half
the community being black and half of it white -- if you wantec
to have integrated schools with pupils from both sides of the
street, so to speak, attending the same schools, how would you
go about doing that, Mr. Parsons?
A I would assume that you would build school buildings
and establish a system of transportation and transport them
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back and forth.
Q But the main thing, depending on the size of the com
munity, isn't it, is that you would locate the schools central
to the people to the pupils on both sides of the street, isn't
that true?
A Not necessarily, not if you had a system of transpor
tation .
Q Let's assume that you have a smaller community where
you don’t need a transportation system and all the pupils live
within two miles cf a central site, could you not, by locatin’
a school within the center of that area, assure that you will
have racial homogeneity?
A If you were drawing from both directions, yes.
Q All right.
Now, I just want to ask you whether the District has
ever had a policy of locating schools or planning future schoo .
construction in such a manner as to achieve reasonable racial
balance in the schools?
A Not that I know of. Ke have had no policy of that.
Q Do you have any future policies for site selection a:
all?
A No.
Q You do not have.
Now, Mr. Parsons, on your elementary school plan for
assignment of pupils, would you state to the Court wnether tlii >
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plan differs materially from the one that was presented to the
Court August 10th?
A Not materially. However, there arc some slight dif
ferences involved.
Q There are slight differences.
Can you identify and thereafter explain those dif
ferences -- those variances?
A Perhaps one of the major differences that the area
around Stephens School, in order to get a better balance of
elementary pupils, both white and Negro, in Stephens as well a:
the other elementary districts adjacent to Stephens, some
changes were made in these lines to achieve a better racial
balance.
Q Pardon me, Mr. Parsons.
MR. WALKER: I would like -- these were exhibits
introduced by you, Exhibits 12, 13 and 14. Do you have those?
THE COURT: The Clerk probably has them.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, may I ask the Court to come
over so Mr. Parsons can explain them to the Court.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, do you see that?
A Mr. Walker, I believe your question had to do with
elementary schools.
Q Yes.
A This is the high schools.
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Q I'm sorry.
This is Exhibit No. 12, by Defendant.
Now, Mr. Parsons, I ask you whether the pupil atten
dance pattern under your proposed plan would differ any at the
Brady School. Could you show the Court the Brady School?
Under your proposed plan, there would be no Negroes
at Brady? I mean, under the first one presented, there would lx
no Negroes. The figures are the same, is that true?
A Mr. Walker -- do you have the list here? All right.
Q So that there is no change in the Brady attendance
area between August 16 and the present.
A No.
Q Now, I don't want to go over every last one of these
but I just want to take one or two other examples.
You say at Stephens, there is a change.
A Yes, there is.
Q Under the proposed plan, you would have 34 Negroes
and 313 whites, is that true?
A Yes.
Q Isn't it true that under your August 16 plan, you hat
365 Negroes and 83 whites?
A That’s correct.
Q And that your present plan reduced the percentage of
white pupils in Stephens School?
A Well, I have not converted it to a percentage, but tl
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numbers are --
Q The number is reduced by at least 49, isn't it?
A You mean the number of white pupils?
Q White pupils, yes.
A All right.
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, I cross examined you at length the
last time about why you did not submit to the Board for con
sideration your original plan, which is known as the Beta Com
plex, which would have called for the elimination of Stephens
as an all-Negro school and the integration, on a racial balance
point, all of the schools in the Beta Complex, which includes
Franklin, Lee, Stephens, Garland, and Oakhurst.
Why did you not submit such a plan again to the
Board, Mr. Parsons?
A This plan was submitted in the Parsons Plan, and the
Parsons Plan was soundly defeated at the polls, which indicates
to me that this would not be acceptable, to the community.
Q So your consideration there was that the community
did not accept this Beta Complex.
A There wre other considerations.
Q But that was one.
A That was one. But a primary consideration was the
fact that there was some expenditure of funds involved in the
creation of this complex in converting a building, an existing
building, from an elementary school building to create a comple
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center. I believe we proposed that to be the Lee School for
certain offices for special personnel.
Q Could not you, though, without any cost, have paired
those five schools and achieved a degree of racial balance
within each, different than the one that -- different than the
racial balance that would be achieved under your proposed plan'
A We could have proposed the same complex that was
proposed in the Parsons Plan, yes.
Q But the reason you didn't, you're saying, is that tht
community would reject it.
THE COURT: He said that was one of them.
THE WITNESS: Along with another compelling reason,
and that is no funds are available to the District to prepare
this community and this area and the buildings located therein
as a complex.
MR. WALKER: My question, Your Honor, is that he did
not respond to it.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Could you not have accomplished pairing, using the
same sites that you have, and the same schools that you have,
without any cost?
A We think that it probably could have been done, but
it could not have been as successfully and as effectively done
as if there were funds available to do some of the things to
create innovative programs that we planned to do under our
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original plan.
Q So that, without doing your innovative programs, you
could have accomplished the physical results, Negro pupils beiu
in a racial minority in every last one of those five schools,
if you use them as school buildings.
A If you just wanted to throw something out and operate
it without any real basic good planning, yes, you could have
done that.
Q Do you call the original Parsons Plan, the Beta Com
plex that I'm talking about, not a good plan?
A No, I do not.
Q How does the plan that I'm proposing, the pairing
plan, differ from your own Parsons Plan as applied to the Beta
Complex?
A There is no -- there are no funds available at the
present time with which to prepare the buildings and the com
munity for this complex.
Q All right. How much money would it take to prepare
the community for that concept, Mr. Parsons?
A I do not know.
Q You have not run a cost analysis?
A No. No, I have not.
Q How much would it take to remodel the buildings --
first, what remodelling, specifically, would have to be done
and what buildings?
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A We would have to study the enrollment that would
exist in this area in 1969-70 to come up with a reasonable
figure as to what it would cost to remodel the buildings to
adequately take care of that enrollment.
Q But you have not prepared a cost analysis?
A No, we have not, because we did not propose this in
our plan.
Q i see. Now, Mr. Parsons, isn't it true that if you
wanted to operate each one of those schools more or less with
the same pupil populations as they had, you could draw the
attendance boundaries in this area in such a way as to bring
about racial balance, reasonable racial balance, within each
one of those schools without any more cost?
A No, I do not think this is true, not without creating
hardships on pupils in terms of distance.
Q It would be a hardship in terms of distance, is that
right?
A Yes.
Q All right, now, I notice, Mr. Parsons, with all this
talk which you reiterated, that Stephens is located in a Negro
neighborhood there and located within the midst of those four
white neighborhoods, is that true?
A Yes.
Q Now, the pupils are all within reasonable proximity
of each other, isn't that true?
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A You're talking about the five schools now?
Q Yes.
A Reasonable proximity.
Q All right, ̂ow, the hardships would be on pupils in
walking to and from school, is that right?
A Yes.
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, I notice that you had the Terry
School here, and that obviously a number of pupils -- all of
whom are white -- live a far greater distance from Terry than
these pupils, any pupils, in the Beta Complex from any one
school.
A There happens not to be another elementai-y school in
the Terry area.
Q All right, but nonetheless the hardships are there,
aren't there, Mr. Parsons, to be encountered by pupils wherevei
they attend a public school system, and one of them is trans
portation.
A You would not consider it a hardship if a pupil lived
directly across the street from a school but had to go ten or
twelve blocks to another school. That is not a hardship.
Q Are you saying --
A I'm saying that if we ran the line vertical, as you
suggested in the last hearing, that there is only one block
difference between the vertical distance between the two buildi
and to run a vertical line between the two buildings would
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require each building to draw all of its enrollment either from
the right or from the left, one building drawing from the righ1:
and the other building drawing from the left.
THE COURT: I certainly don't want to pursue that
subject again.
Q
BY MR. WALKER:
Now, Mr. Parsons, I notice that according to your
figures, Garland lias an optimum capacity of 390, but under your
plan, there will be 322 pupils in attendance there, which
means that Garland could, without being overcrowded, accommo
date the difference between 322 and 390.
A All right.
Q But the other schools, Franklin has a capacity of 660
and under your plan, they would have 587 pupils, which means
that Franklin could accommodate another 80 pupils, approxima
A All right, I'll accept that.
Q What are the other two schools there that are pre-
dominantly white?
A Garland and --
Q Oakhurst.
A All right. Oakhurst.
Q And what is the other one?
A Lee.
Q Lee has a capacity of 393 without being overcrowded.
And under your plan you will have 289, which means that you car
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accommodate another one hundred pupils in that school.
A All right.
Q What then, Mr. Parsons, would be the difficulty in
having those schools reorganized in this manner: all the pupii.
in grades one through five would attend either Franklin, Lee,
Garland, Oakhurst; and the remaining students in grades six to
ten, Stephens? What cost would be involved in that?
A I do not know. We have never considered this as a
plan. I do not know the cost.
Q All right, that could physically, though, be done,
couldn't it, Mr. Parsons?
A I wouldn't say until I had an opportunity to study it
I don't think that I could afford to write a plan while I'm on
the witness stand.
0 I understand. But you have not considered that altei
native.
A No, we have not.
Q All right. Has the subject of Hall High School been
one of considerable discussion and controversy in the School
Baord meetings in the last two or three years?
A Isn't it true, Mr. Parsons, there have been a number
of witnesses appear before the Board and set out that they
believe it is unfair for Central High School to bear all the
burden of integration -- if it is a burden -- while Hall High
School did not bear any of it?
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A There have been a few people who said this, yes.
Q Haven't you yourself identified that as being a prob
lem?
A Yes.
Q Why is that a problem, Mr. Parsons?
A I have no idea why it's a problem.
Q Well, why would you identify it as a problem if you
don't have any idea why it is a problem?
A There are a lot of problems that we have that we
don't know why they're problems, but they are. I do not know
why it's a problem. It just is.
Q Is it a desirable situation to have that kind of an
imbalance at Hall High School?
A I think that depends entirely upon the individual
who is evaluating it as desirable or undesirable.
Q How would you evaluate it, Mr. Parsons? As undesira!
Desirable?
A As undesirable.
Q Yet you can't tell me why it is undesirable.
A Yes, sir, I can tell you why it is undesirable to me
but it might not be the same reason why it is undesirable to
you.
Q All right, would you tell me why it is undesirable t
you, as Chief Administrator of the Little Rock Schools?
A We feel that Hall High School ought to have some
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Negro students enrolled in that particular high school because
there are Negro students enrolled in most of the other high
schools in the system.
Q Isn’t it true that in order to meet that undesirable
aspect of the school system as it is presently operated that you
proposed a plan to bring about some racial balance in Hall High
School?
A Are you talking about the Parsons Flan?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q Now, would the Parsons Plan have used the same basic
zoning formula as the present zoning plan?
A No.
Q I see. Instead of north-south zoning, you would have
cast-west zoning, is that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q And if you had east-west zoning, isn't it true that
the racial balance at Hall would be different than it is now?
A Yes.
Q Now, isn't it true that you could also draw the lines
around Horace Mann High School so as to have a larger amount of
pupils on an east-west basis than 66 white pupils in Horace
Mann High School?
A Well, you likely could. However, we have never done
this. We have not tested this to see whether or not it could
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feasibly be done.
Q I call you attention, then, to the plan that you
presented back in August, and ask you whether, at the high
school level, the plan that you have prepared at present resuli
in less integration at Horace Mann High School than the plan
that you prepared and presented to the Court in August?
A No, the plan as presented here results in more inte
gration.
Q At Horace Mann High School?
A Yes.
Q Well, in the present plan, Mr. Parsons, isn't it true
that under your projections for 1969-70, you would have 66
white pupils at Horace Mann High School?
A That’s true.
Q All right, and the plan that you presented in August
would have 233 white pupils?
A Yes, but, Mr. Walker, you fail to take into consider!
tion the fact that under the plan that we have presented here,
we are giving -- and we think that this is proper to do this -•
wo are giving preemptive rights of students to finish those
schools in which they are presently enrolled in high school.
We are talking about geographical zoning, and if you
will examine the plan that was presented in August, you will
find that the line between Central and Mann High Schools was
on State Street to Roosevelt -- coming from north to south--
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State Street to Roosevelt, and from Roosevelt over to High, an«,
from High down to the District line, while this plan calls for
the line being moved rather radically to tho left, taking more
of the Central High School District into the Mann zone.
Q Mr. Parsons, my question, though, is that if the Cour
had required you to implement that plan in September, would nou
you have had more numerical desegregation at Horace Mann High
School than you have under the proposed plan?
A We did not file with the Court, if I understand it
correctly, a detailed plan in terms of the actual number of
students that would be involved in this change of method of
assignment of pupils in our system.
Q What do you call this, Mr. Parsons?
A Well, this is what was filed here, but we did not
even go into the preemptive rights of any students to remain
in the schools where they were presently assigned.
Q I see. So you do not feel it was a full plan in
August as --
THE COURT: I understand what the viewpoint of each
of you is, and I do not think we are getting anywhere.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q All right, Mr. Parsons, let me ask you whether you
propose to give freedom of choice to the pupils who are now in
grades ten and eleven to remain in the schools which they now
attend or to attend a school within their attendance zones, as
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as it has been'proposed?
A That is v;hat the plan calls for.
q For pupils in grades ten and eleven.
A Yes.
Q And you also propose to give those rights to pupils
in grade eight.
A That is correct.
Q But you do not propose to give that kind of choice to
pupils in grades five and six.
A No, we do not.
Q Now, do you, on the basis of history, have any reason
to believe that any of the white youngsters who now attend
Central High School who live in the Horace Mann attendance aren
will choose to attend the Horace Mann High School?
A I have no idea. This would be purely a prediction.
I do not know.
Q On the basis of your experience, what do you think
would be the reason?
A My only answer would be that under freedom of choice,
not any have chosen to.
Q Isn't it true that under this plan, too, you would
have fewer Negro pupils in Hall High School than you would have
had under the plan you presented to the Judge in September?
A Well, I haven't really checked to see. I don't know
of any reason why we wouldn't, Mr. Walker. This shows 1408
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white, three Negroes. I would assume that surely the same
number would be involved in this plan.
Q Have you ever proposed a plan to increase the number
of Negroes in Hall High School?
A Oh, yes.
Q h'h&t happened to that plan, Mr. Parsons?
A It was defeated by the electorate.
Q It was defeated by the electorate.
Have you ever, subsequent to that, to either one of
those elections, proposed any other plan which would have
increased the extent of desegregation at Hall High School?
A We have not proposed a plan in terms of development
of a full plan. However, we have made suggestions and tried or
for size with our Board of Directors proposals that would have
increased the number of Negro students in Hall High School, yes
Q I see. I hand you a document and ask you to identify
it, Mr. Parsons.
A These are basically tables showing what would be the
result of the implementation of a zoning plan that was prepared
-- I think not in multiple copies. I'm talking about the map
-- and that was submitted to a meeting of our Board on October
10th.
Q I see. Would that plan have put 80 Negro pupils at
Hall High School?
A Yes, I believe that is correct.
Q Was that plan defeated?
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A No.
Q Why was it abandoned, then, as an alternative?
A This was, in the first place, not a plan. It was noi;
submitted as something that was a final plan that we were sub
mitting for approval or disapproval. It was submitted for
discussion; in the process of discussing this plan, we became
convinced -- by "we", I'm talking about the administration --
that there was some dissatisfaction with the plan on the part
of members of the Board, and there developed some dissatisfact:.*
with the plan on our own part.
Consequently,, a new plan, a new map, was developed
and new tables were prepared in multiple, multiple times, not
just one time, but many tables and many maps were prepared,
and were changed many times subsequent to this plan.
Q Did you yourself determine that a majority of the
Board would not support a plan, this plan, to put eighty Negro
students into the Hall High School area?
A This plan was never voted on at all. Expressions of
opinions from Board members and expressions of opinions from
other staff members indicated that we should re-study this mat'
ter and develop another plan.
Q Isn't it true that Mr. Drummond made a motion that
this plan be adopted and it was seconded by Mr. Patterson?
A I do not recall this. This may well be true.
Q At the November 15th meeting?
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A On November 15th?
Q Yes.
A I thought you were still back on October 10th.
Q No. On November 15th, did Mr. Drummond make such a
motion?
A I believe lie did, probably.
Q And did Mr. Patterson second it? And a substitute
motion by Mr. Charlie Brown, seconded by Mr. Jim Jenkins, was
made to the effect that this plan be rejected and the present
plan, which is before the Court, be adopted?
A If that's what the minutes would reflect, I'm sure ii:
is.
Q I see. And that your vote on that plan was five per
sons in favor of the substitute motion, and two persons agains-:
it.
A Right.
Q Those two persons being in favor of the first plan.
A Right.
Q Did this plan that you submitted represent good edu-
cational planning?
A Now, which plan are you talking about?
Q The one that was rejected ly the five Board members.
A Yes, we think it represented good educational plannin
Admittedly, there were areas in the plan where pupils were goi-i
to be required to go rather long distances to schools, in one
area in particular -- I’m sure that's the one you have referenc
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527
to.
Q Now, is the plan that you presented after having be
instructed by the Board to present the recommendations to the
full Board by which to comply with this Court's directive of
August 17?
A Are you talking about the plan of October 10?
Q Yes, I'd like to have
A You need to identify these so I'll know which plan
you're talking about.
Q All right.
MR. WALKER: Let me mark this for identification.
This would be Defendant's Exhibit -- Plaintiff's Exhibit No.
2, Your Honor.
(The document referred to was marked
2Plaintiff's Exhibit No. for
identification.)
BY MR. WALKER:
Q This plan, Mr. Parsons.
A All right, I think we're using the word "plan" a lit
bit loosely.
Q Well, it was described by Mr. Drummond in his state
ment, isn't that true, as a plan?
A It probably was.
Q Now, this --
THE COURT: How did you identify that?
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MR. WALKER: This is Plaintiff's Exhibit 2, Your
Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, would you give us some identification
for this -- I don't know quite how to describe it, if you don'1:
call it a plan.
THE COURT: As of what date? Or does it have a date"
MR. WALKER: As of October 10.
THE WITNESS: October 10, someone has said.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, I want to ask you now whether you have
had your staff determine whether the extent of desegregation
would be greater under this particular plan than would be
achieved or was achieved under freedom of choice and, if so,
would you state how the results differ?
A Actually, we have not made 3n analysis of this. How
ever, suffice it to say that we are convinced that there would
be greater desegregation under the zoning plan than under
freedom of choice as it is currently operating.
Freedom of choice has not served to eliminate the
all-Negro schools in the system while this zoning plan would
eliminate every all-Negro school, with the possible exception
of one, and it is possible that one would be eliminated if
some of the white teachers assigned there took their children
there for their education.
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Q But it would be still an insignificant number of
white pupils in the Negro schools -- in that Negro school.
A Bell, I would not know how it would be insignificant
in terms of the total enrollment, but I would not know how man)
children the white teachers assigned to teach in that school
might have.
Q Let’s compare the present plan with freedom of choice,
Mr. Parsons. First, let's compare the present plan with the
freedom of choice plan that's in operation.
A All right.
Q And look at the results.
Now, would you admit that under freedom of choice,
we have only four all-white pupil populated elementary schools?
And they are Fair Park, Jefferson --
A If you're looking at a report that was put out by our
offices, why, I would agree with that.
Q Under your proposed plan, you have eight all-white
elementary schools?
A Tentative.
Q But the only way they would have any Negro pupils in
those schools would be teachers who are Negro teachers within
those schools brought their children to those schools?
A True.
Q So you would have more all-white schools without that
529
aspect being introduced into it under the proposed plan than
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53-
have under the prepent freedom of choice plan.
A But our plan calls for the introduction of this
aspect.
Q I understand that; but let's assume that no teachers
in those schools take their children to those schools, or have
no children, you would have more all-white schools under your
proposed plan at the elementary level than you had under freedo
of choice.
A I would much prefer, of course, to assume that they
will have children and will take them there.
Q But can you answer my question?
A What is your question?
THE COURT: That they have no children or didn't tak<
them there.
THE WITNESS: If they had no children or didn't take
them there, would you have more or less?
BY MR. WALKER:
Q More all-white schools.
A You would have more all-white schools.
Q Now, isn't it true that the same result would apply
at Henderson Junior High School, that you would have no Negro
pupils at Henderson? And that Henderson would become an all-
white school while it is not an all-white school under freed
of choice?
A Unless --
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S31
Q Unless the teachers --
A Yes.
Q Now, isn't it true that, according to what you know
about what community attitudes have been expressed to you, Mr.
Parsons, that you can expect the minority of white pupils who
will be assigned to Horace Mann High School or their parents
to try to find ways to get from Horace Mann High School into a
school in which their race predominates?
A No, I could not agree with that statement.
Q Mr. Parsons, did you say that that was likely, and
that in fact did happen at the Mitchell School?
A Mr. Walker, this was prior to the time that we had
developed any plan whatsoever or any meaningful faculty desegre
gation; related to this plan of student zoning is a plan for
meaningful faculty desegregation, which means that at least
S5 per cent of the faculty at Mann High School will be white
and I cannot see why pupils, who are necessarily zoned into tins
Mann area, wanting to, quote, escape, close quote, from a good
faculty such as we doubtless would have at Mann High School
involving a majority of faculty members who are of the white
pupil's own race.
Q But, Mr. Parsons, can you tell us is that situation
any different because at Mitchell, in 1968-69, that flight has
continued despite the fact that you have eleven white teachers
at Mitchell and three Negro teachers there?
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A I think there is a difference.
Q Would you explain it, please?
A Yes. Mitchell was an all-white school at one time
in the history of this school district, and through the process
of attrition, evidently, of white people and through in-migratii
of Negro families, it became a predominantly Negro school.
We are not talking about in relationship to Mann Higli
School; we are not talking about a change in neighborhood pat
terns. We are merely talking about a change in the rc-organizs
tion and staffing of a school, and we think that the staffing
of this school with the present re-organization of the zones
will result in people remaining in the zone in which they find
themselves.
Q I see. Now, the re-organization will be minor at
Mitchell, isn’t it true, in that while you have three Negro
teachers there now, you will only have five Negro teachers
there in 1969-70, while you now have eleven white teachers
there, and you will have ten white teachers in Mitchell next
year under your proposed plan?
A Right.
Q So that the faculty situation has always been one
where the white teachers predominated, is that not true?
A Yes, it has, at Mitchell.
Q Mr. Parson, you have stated in the Parsons Report
that the community is organized more or less on a neighborhood
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basis and that, as Negroes begin to infiltrate -- ami you used
that terra -- the white neighborhoods, the whites began to leave
Do you recall that?
A Yes, I do.
Q All right, now, isn't it true that this is a phenom
enon that has to be taken into account in saying whether or no ;
the white pupil population is going to remain stable at Horace
Mann High School, when you have only 66 white pupils out of
roughly a thousand?
A I really do not think so. We are not talking about,
quote, infiltration, quote closed. We are talking about a
stable, hopefully, popxilation, and the change is not going to
be in the community; the change is going to be in the organi
sational structure of the school system and the staffing of it
THE COURT; All right. I have heard enough about tha
BY MR. WALKER;
Q Mr. Parsons, you are familiar with the literature on
the subject of de facto segregation, right?
A I am certainly not acquainted with all of it.
Q Well, some of it.
A Yes.
Q Are you familiar with the document known as "Racial
Isolation in Public Schools"?
A Yes, I've heard of the document.
Q Have you read it?
A I have read extracts from it, but I have not read it
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534
In its entirety.
Q Are you aware of the fact that it is concluded in
here that when white pupils comprise a minority of a given sch<n
pupil population in a community where their race is in the
majority, that those white pupils will seek to find ways to
again get into a majority situation?
A Without knowing for sure, I would assume that assume
that that research did not involve a complete re-organization
of the staff of the school.
THE COURT: I have told you I’ve heard all I want to
hear, now, about that subject.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, as changes are concerned, isn’t it true, Mr.
Parsons, that the schools which are located in Negro neighbor
hoods, to wit: schools such as Carver, Ish, Gilliam, Granite
Mountain, Pfiefer, Rightsell, Stephens, under your plan,
Washington, and Ish, would have more than ninety per cent blac:
students in them?
A I have not calculated this, but if you have, that
may well be true.
Q All right, isn’t it true that in terms of the number
of Negro pupils who would be attending schools in which their
race was in a minority would diminish under your present plan?
A Yes, I believe that there would be fewer pupils, at
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535
tleast within a period of two or three years, that would be
attending -- Negro pupils attending schools where their race
was in the minority than we are currently experiencing under
the freedom of choice plan.
Q So that freedom of choice really would produce a
greater degree of desegregation?
A Oh, no. No, under freedom of choice, we have continie
to have all-Negro schools, and under the plan which we propose,
this would eliminate all of the all-Negro schools with the pos
sible exception of one. And I have been convinced for a long
time that integration means the total number of pupils who are
having the experience of an integrated education, so if we havet
6,000 Negro pupils who are currently not having the experience
of an integrated education, and under this plan begin to have
an experience of an integrated education, then we have increase,
integration within our school system tremendously.
Q Mr. Parsons, what is your present definition of a
Negro school?
A I don’t have any.
Q Now, would not -- could not a formerly all-Negro
school be identifiable by the following factors:
A Negro principal, a largely predominant Negro pupi"
enrollment, the location in an identifiable Negro neighborhood,
naming the school, the particular school, with names or initial
started as a Negro school?
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536
A I think all of these would contribute toward the
identification of a school as a Negro school.
Q And also the fact that that school had a proportion,
under your plan, of Negro teachers higher than the formerly
white schools?
A I do not think that this would necessarily contribute
to this.
Q You don’t have any other definition of a Negro school
than the one I have given you?
A No, I think you covered it very well.
Q Do you have an opinion, as the administrator of this
schod system, as to whether the pupil balance that you have set
forth here, would be maintained for several years, or whether
re-segregation will occur?
A I have no idea.
Q Has your opinion changed from the time that you wrote
the Parsons Plan?
A I do not think you should relate the two opinions.
In fact, at the time the Prrsons Plan was submitted, there was
no plan for comprehensive faculty desegregation. I go back to
my previous statement, that faculty desegregation will, in our
judgment, tend to stabilize the community.
Q Let's talk, then, for a moment about faculty desegre
gation. The Court directed the District to prepare a plan to
bring about racial balance in the faculty, unless it could come
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537
up with a better plan.
Do you here take the position that the plan you have
coine up with is a better plan than a racial balance plan?
A I take the position, until shown differently, that in
is a racially balanced plan.
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, you say that this is a racially
balanced plan, but I ask you if it isn’t true that while the
ratio of white teachers to Negro teachers at the high school
level is 82 to 18, that this balance is more or less reflected
only at the formerly white schools or predominantly white
schools and not reflected at the Horace Mann High School?
A I really do not understand your question.
Q All right. White 18 per cent of the Negro teachers
-- of teachers at the high school level are Negro, you have moi
or less, within the three point range that you mention, that
range of Negro teachers at Central, Hall, Metropolitan and
Parkview.
A All right.
Q But you have 29 per cent of the faculty of Mann High
School being Negro.
A Right.
Q Would not, then, one be able to identify Horace Mann
High School as a Negro school because of the fact that you have
a much higher percentage of Negro faculty at that school, in
addition to the other facts that I've named, such as the locati
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5 38
of the schoolj the preponderance of Negro pupils, the initial
beginning of the school?
A I do not think the mere fact that a school has 29 per
cent of its total faculty Negro would identify it as a Negro
school, no.
Q But that's a comparative thing, isn't it, Mr. Parson:,
A I don't think it's comparative.
Q All right, Mr. Parsons.
I notice that at the junior high school level roughly
27 per cent of all the teachers are Negro and 73 per cent are
white, but that at the two formerly all-Negro schools, 43 per
cent or 44 per cent of the faculty of both those schools happen
to be Negro, whereas no more than 22 per cent of the faculty
of the other formerly white schools happen to be Negro.
A Mr. Walker, we make absolutely no apology for this.
We are attempting to develop a plan that will fall within the
guidelines which we have proposed to the Court for the first
year that will prevent us from losing any more teachers than we
absolutely have to.
I testified this morning that this is not something
that we are kept busy all day long with teachers knocking on
the door saying, "I want to do this." This is an unpleasant
and an uncomfortable experience for teachers. Consequently,
we have no desire to make any more of them uncomfortable and
unhappy about it than we have to.
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Q So you would not bring about strict racial balance
because of the morale of the teachers.
A We think that any time you have a segment of your
faculty that is -- that has a ratio of 18 to 82, that if you
agreed to go to 15 and 85, you have essentially brought about
racial balance.
Q My question, though, is that you have not placed, in
terms of percentages, Negroes or white teachers in the formerly
Negro schools in higher percentages, or Negro teachers in
formerly white schools in higher percentages, because of the
fact that the teachers are opposed to integration.
A 1 didn't say the teachers are opposed to integration
at all.
Q Well, that they are opposed to teaching in situation:;
where their race is in a minority.
A No, I didn’t say that.
Q Well, how do you account then, Mr. Parsons, for the
fact that Southwest has only 20 per cent of its faculty being
Negro while Booker has 44 per cent of its faculty being Negro?
Is there any justification for that?
A Yes.
Q Other than morale of teachers.
A Mr. Walker, we are not talking about whether or not
a teacher wants to teach where her race is in the minority, or
doesn't want to teach. We are talking about the fact that no
539-----
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540
teacher who is happy and comfortable where she is now teaching
wants to move, regardless of where it may be. It may be an
all-Negro school or an all-white school or an integrated schoo'
but she just doesn’t want to move. She is acclimiated and hapijy
and comfortable in the position that she is now occupying.
Q Is there any other reason that you have for not
transferring her?
A I think we don’t really need any otlver reason than
this.
Q
minority
A
Q
unhappy
A
Q
for it,
Are the teachers that you are going to place in
situations happy with their move?
We do not know. We have not identified these teach
I see. So that you are going to make some teachers
and then some others happy.
We probably will.
THE COURT: Let's pass on to another subject.
MR. WALKER: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
You don't have any other educational justification
though.
THE COURT: I said let’s pass on to another subject.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q I notice that the elementary school level, 35 per cer
of the faculty in the total system is Negro.
A Right.
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541
Q Whereas 65 per cent of the faculty would be white.
Is that right?
A That's correct.
Q Mr. Parsons, I notice again that, as I look down the
list of schools, that all of the former Negro schools have no
less than 41 per cent of their faculty being Negro, while no
ormerly white school has that much or that many higher per-
centage of Negro teachers. Is that true?
A Yes, that's true.
Q Is there any other justification for this result thar
the one that you have mentioned with regard to the junior high
schools?
A Identically the same justification.
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, you have stated this isn't the idee
situation, but this is the most that you can accomplish, isn’t
that true?
A Where have I stated that?
Q In your earlier depositions, Mr. Parsons.
A All right.
Q What is the ideal, Mr. Parsons?
A I really do not knoAv. I think the ideal, probably,
would be to do what we are doing, and then employ people rather
than white or Negro, and then assign them to positions as peopl
and qualified teachers, rather than white or Negro people, and
this is the plan that we intend to follow.
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542
Q Do you recall making a statement to the effect that
you do not have a plan to be implemented for future years, thai
"we are submitting a plan at the present tine to achieve the
goal which we have filed with the Court as a goal which we wii:
receive, develop plans to employ people without regard to race
on the basis of their qualifications", et cetera, "hoping that
this will produce greater faculty desegregation than we would
experience the first year”?
A Yes.
Q So that you do see more to be achieved by way of
bringing about racial balance?
A It would be foolish, I think, for me to sit here and
say that we would not sensitive to the needs in this area. We
will be sensitive to it. At the sane tine, we will employ and
assign without regard to race.
Q All right, then, Mr. Parsons.
You have had --
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, do you have much more on cro«
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I just wanted to go over th<
other alternatives that he has mentioned to try to demonstrate
the Court the degree of desegregation that would be achieved
under each, and inquire of him —
THE COURT: Are you talking about faculty or what?
MR. WALKER: Faculty, for the most part, we have
finished. We're talking about pupils now.
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543
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, you have started to explain what you
described as the Walker Plan, and you stated to the Court that
that plan would have pupils moving from one school to the othe-
every year, is that correct?
A Not all the pupils, no.
Q I mean, basically, though, pupil would start, say,
under the Walker Plan in, say, Hall High School, in grade elevo
and he would not remain there for both his school years. Is
that the way you see the plan?
A This would happen to approximately one-third of the
pupils under my conception of the plan.
Q Under that plan,isn't it true, Mr. Parsons, that the:-
would be grade re-organization at all levels and that you woul<
have two schools to accommodate the entire population, Hall
High School and Horace Mann High School?
A All right.
Q And then that pupils would be assigned to Hall High
School, who live in certain areas, and that they would stay in
that school from grade eleven through grade twelve, and that
the same would be true in the Horace Mann attendance area?
A No, I did not interpret it that way.
Q You did not interpret that.
When was the last time you read my plan, Mr. Parsons'
A Day before yesterday.
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544
Q Did you read i t in d e t a i l , Mr. Parson?
A Y es , I d id .
Q Are you aware o f the f a c t that another school d i s t r i c
Pine B l u f f , has decided to adopt more or l e s s the same concept
that i s proposed fo r the high school grades here?
A I am aware o f the f a c t that Pine B l u f f has submitted
a plan o f d e s e g r e g a t io n , y e s . I am not aware o f the f a c t that
i s patterned a f t e r your p lan .
Q I 'm not saying that i t i s patterned a f t e r my p la n ,
Mr. Parsons. I'm saying that i t c a l l s f o r grade r e - o r g a n i z a t i o
to your knowledge - -
A Y es .
Q - - and th a t the grades being re -organ ized are grades
eleven and twelve in the former Pine B lu f f High School - -
A Y e s .
Q - - and grades nine and ten in the formerly Negro
s c h o o l s , and grades seven and e ig h t in the formerly white ju n io
high s c h o o l s . I s that true?
A As f a r as I know, i t i s .
Q Mr. Parsons, do you p erce ive t h i s plan as having
b a s i c a l l y the same idea?
A No, I d o n ' t .
Q Mr. Parsons , i s n ’ t i t true that any plan that you
come up with w i l l produce a number o f a d m in istra t iv e d i f f i c u l t :
A I'm sure that i t would.
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54 S
Q Isn't it also true that any plan that you come up
with produce or require financial expenditures?
A No.
Q What plan won't require financial expenditures?
A A zoning plan, such as this, will not.
Q A zoning plan such as this will not require any money
A That's correct.
Q That is the only plan that won’t require any money.
A As far as I know, Mr. Walker, it is the only plan
which does not require money.
Q But under your plan, isn't it true that you are goin*
to have to, sooner or later, in order to provide equality of edv
cation for all pupils in the District, replace a number of the
central city schools, the East Side schools
A As I have previously testified, the sooner we can do
this, the better we would like it. We would like to build
some new schools, yes.
Q Isn't is also an element of your plan that you are
going to provide compensatory eduction for pupils who live in
the eastern part of the city with achievement levels below thai
of the pupils in the western part of the city?
A It is not a part of the plan that we have filed with
the Court.
Q But isn't it a part of your present operation?
A Yes, it is.
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546
Q You are spending large amounts of money now, isn't
it true, for compensatory eduction for youngsters in what's
known as the Model Cities area, the east side?
A We are spending what might be classified as large
amounts of Federal funds that are designated for that purpose
and which could not be expended for any other purpose, yes.
Q How much is that, Mr. Parsons?
A About -- slightly in excess of half a million dollar*
annually.
Q And isn't it true that you have stated to me and the
Court that the District is also spending some of its own money
for compensatory education?
A Yes, we are spending some of our School District's
money, the tax funds, but it's nominal compared to the amount
that's being spent under Title I.
Q Is that money that you are using for compensatory
education being spent under what's known as the I. T. A.
program?
A Oh, you might classify some of the funds spent for
I. T. A. as compensatory.
Q Tell us, if you would, what we mean by I. T. A.?
A That's the Initial Teaching Alphabet, which is a
phonetic spelling approach to the English language for first
and pre-first children.
Q Isn’t it true that I. T. A. is now being conducted
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547
only in predominantly Negro schools?
A I'm not sure that this is true, Mr. Walker.
Q Do you know of any white schools in which it is
identified as being tried?
A No, frankly, I do not know the names of any, quote,
Negro schools, close quotes.
Q Isn't it true that it is being used in Carver?
A Well, it probably is. If you know that it is, I
would -- I will agree with you.
THE COURT: Now, let's don't get into an argument.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, did you ever speak to the Carver P.T.A.
about the I. T. A. program?
A I think not.
Q You don't recall it?
A No.
Q Now, isn't it true, Mr. Parsons, that the cost of the
so-called Walker Plan, according to your projections, would
have been roughly a half million dollars per year?
A For transportation only.
Q And isn’t it true that, according to other state
ments of yours, that at least sixty per cent of that money
would have been given to the city by the State Department of
Education?
A Under the plan that we propose, we estimated sixty
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per cent of transportation costs would be payable by the State
yes. We are not assured nor were we assured then nor would
we be assured now that sixty per cent of the Walker Plan would
be refunded by the State.
Q Have you had a cost analysis run on the so-called
Walker Plan?
A No.
Q Have you had a cost analysis run on any of the alter
natives available that you have considered?
A Oh, yes.
Q All right, would you tell me which plan that you con
sidered that you made a cost analysis of?
A Well, we made a cost analysis on a plan that came to
be known as the Parsons Plan.
Q I mean subsequent to this Court's order of August
17th.
A We have not.
Q You have not made a cost analysis of any plan.
A No, sir.
Q So you don't know how much it would cost to implement
any plan other than this particular plan, which you say would
cost nothing.
A I have some ideas, of course; if we sat down and
analyzed the recommendations in the plan, we certainly could
come up with some general ideas on cost.
--------------------VI!,
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549
Q But the Board of Directors has not directed you to
prepare a cost analysis?
A No, sir, they have not.
q A cost analysis of the alternatives available.
Are you aware of the fact that under certain circum
stances, there is Federal money available to transport student^?
A No, I am not aware of that.
Q Now, the Parsons Plan itself called for transportation
of students from the east side to the west side.
A That's correct.
Q And right now isn’t it true that pupils who live in
the Meadowcliff area, through using their own financial resources,
charter a bus to be taken to Meadowcliff -- to be taken from
Meadowcliff to Central High School?
A I'm not aware of the fact that they do, but they
probably do.
Q And aren't there in the city numbers of parents who
bus their pupils to the school or schools which their childrenj
attend?
A Are you talking about riding a city bus?
Q Well, not riding a city bus. I’m saying, perhaps a
c o n t r a c t w i t h H o u s t o n - B i g e l o w .
A There probably are several, yes.
Q And are you familiar with the private institutions
in the city?
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THE COURT: With what?
MR. WALKER: Private institutions in the city.
THE WITNESS: I'm acquainted with some of them.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Are you familiar with the fact that there is what is
known as an Episcopal school in the central part of the city?
A Yes.
Q Are you familiar with the fact that those pupils are
transported mostly from the west and other parts of the city?
A No, I was not aware of this.
Q You are not?
A No.
Q Are you also aware of the fact that large numbers of
pupils in this city are already being bused at their own expens
A No.
Q Isn't it true that pupils who live in the east side,
who happen to be white, for the most part are bused? Usually
at their own expense, of course, to the West Side Junior High
School?
A I am not aware of this.
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, you realize you are making a
great many statements in the guise of questions which the witne
is not answering, and the statements you are making are not a
part of this record.
550
MR. WALKER: Well, I am asking if he is aware of it.
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------------------- TCT----
THE COURT: I understand that.
MR. WALKER: And in his answers, he is saying that he
is not aware of it. I would think, Your Honor, that we would
have to prove it otherwise in order to be certain that it does
exist.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, you have stated that zoning at present is the
only feasible alternative to freedom of choice as a pupil assign
lent method.
A Yes, sir.
Q Would zoning have beena feasible alternative to free•
dom of choice in, say, 1967-687
A Without money?
Q Without money.
A Yes, it would, probably.
Q What about 1965-66?
A Yes, I think so.
Q I hand you Defendant’s Exhibit No. 8, and ask you
if you can identify Defendant’s Exhibit No. 8 in this procecdi.i;
which is LR-64-C-155, which sets out what the racial composition
of each school would have been had zoning been implemented in
1965?
A I really don’t know. Is that an exhibit in this?
THE COURT: I don't think it is. I think Mr. Walker
means is that this was in an earlier stage of this case.
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552
MR. WALKER: It might be, Your Honor, but I picked
it up out of the record the other day, and I was surprised to
find that --
THE COURT: I don't think it is Defendant's No. 8
in this situation.
MR. WALKER: All right.
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, do you think you can finish
with him by 3:00 o'clock?
MR. WALKER: I'm going to do my best, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I didn't ask that.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I don't think so.
THE COURT: We are going to take a recess, and we
are going to take twenty minutes after we resume, and then you
are going to be through, Mr. Walker.
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Walker.
Mr. Walker, we are covering a great many things we
covered the last time. Some of it is unduly repetitive. I
think you have likely exhausted every possibility of this sub
ject. I am going to give you twenty minutes; you are not
required to use it all, but at that tine, cross examination
will cease.
MR. WALKER: For the record, Your Honor, I would lik<
to respectfully object to the limiting of my testimony by the
Court, and state in support of that that the direct examinatioi
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553
this morning by Mr. Friday lasted for approximately two hours
and that the cross examination has not lasted for any longer
period of time than Mr. Friday's direct examination.
THE COURT: I think you are mistaken about that, but
at any rate, let's proceed.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, you have stated that you think that the
geographic attendance areas plan that you have submitted is th<
only feasible alternative for achieving a unified school system
in the Little Rock schools, is that correct?
A I stated that in terms of no money available.
Q All right; so that the objection, the primary object:
as I understand it, to possible other alternatives are, one,
th3t there is no money available; and, two, the community will
not support through the passage of bond issues or other measure
methods by which to achieve a greater degree of racial balance
in the schools.
A That is not exhaust them.
Q I understand that; but those are the two principal
reasons.
A Those are two reasons.
Q All right. Mr. Parsons, you stated also that this
would have been your statement in 1965, is that true?
A I don't think so.
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554
Q Would you have had the same viewpoint about the edu
cational feasibility about a geographia assignment plan in 196!>
A I do not understand this. Do you mean as the only
alternative in 19657
Q Yes.
A I think subsequent to 1965, we have considered many
other alternatives to the development of a unitary school
system.
?
Q I’m talking about a plan the community’ will accept,
and that there would be sufficient financial ability to achieve.
A Mr. Walker, I have no way of knowing whether or not
this community would have accepted a plan in 1965.
Q Would it have been educationally desirable to have h i<
such a plan implemented in 1965?
A Are you talking about this plan?
Q Yes, the plan that you presented to the Court in 196!i
as set forth in Exhibit 8.
A This does not constitute a plan. I mean we did not
submit this to the Court as what should be done in 1965.
Q I understand that, but you said that this would be
the racial balance in every school in the system, had the
geographic attendance plan been implemented.
A This is merely an objective report to show what would
have happened had a zoning plan been created in 1965 and was
not accompanied with an in-depth study of the implications of
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developing and actually putting into operation such a plan.
Q Mr. Parsons, I ask you what is your opinion about thu
effect on the educational program this kind of a plan would
have had if it had been implemented in 19657
THE COURT: Mr. Walker --
THE WITNESS: I do not know.
THE COURT: -- freedom of choice was perfectly legal
at that time.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we take the position that
these defendants had, from the outset, committed themselves to
running the schools on a geographic attendance area plan; and
so that the Court will fully understand our objections, we sta e
that when the first plan was conceived, the Blossom Plan, that
these defendants, if it had been implemented then, would have
operated a school system which would have more or less been
racially balanced, but that during the intervening years, the
parents in this District, who were white and had the financial
ability, have seen the handwriting on the wall, that all of
these interim measures would eventually fail, and have used the
only other available recourse to them, if they had the means,
and that was to flee from the areas which were more or less
integrated in 1954 and 1956, and go into areas where they knew
Negroes could not or would not come.
THE COURT: You have stated your point.
555
BY MR. WALKER:
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556
Q Mr. Parsons, isn’t it true that you stated in 1965
that "I think the result of establishing of attendance areas,
such as those identified in No. 8", which I have shown you,
"would, oh, I suppose destructive is the word -- that, perhaps
is too strong -- but would adversely affect seriously the edu
cational program of the children in the little Rock School
District"?
A If that is quoted there as my having said it, I'm
sure I said it, but I do not recall having said that in 1965.
Q I call your attention to page 329 of the Clark record.
Mr. Friday is described as further asking you whether that was
your professional opinion, isn’t that true, and you said, "Yes
it is.”
A All right.
Q How has the situation changed so, Mr. Parsons, betwetr
1965 and 1968, to make it undesirable in 1965 but desirable in
1968?
A Are you talking about desirable to provide this type
of plan?
Q Educationally desirable.
A There have been studies made of numerous plans since
1965. Every plan that has been studied and every plan that
has been approved for presentation to this community has been
considered by the Board, evidently, as educationally desirable,
but the community has turned such plans down. We are to the
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S57
point now where we have a directive to eliminate the freedom
of choice plan under which we are currently operating, and we g<
back to our former thesis that the zoning plan is the only plai
that can be implemented in this community without financial
resources over and above those that we have.
Q Mr. Parsons, in your opinion, can either the Parsons
Plan or the Oregon Plan or any comprehensive plan to bring aboi
racial balance in this system be devised which will , in your
judgment, your best professional judgment, obtain the vote of
a majority of the residents of this District?
A On the basis of past experience, it has not been done
To sit here and say that this is impossible, I would hesitate
to do so.
Q All right, now, Mr. Parsons, isn't it true that you
propose under your plan to leave principals where they are?
A Under this plan?
Q Yes.
A Yes, that’s true.
Q So that every formerly Negro school will have a Negrc
principal.
A No.
Q Except Rightsell.
A No.
Q What other school, Mr. Parsons?
A Gilliam, I believe.
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Q Does Gilliam presently have a white principal?
A Yes.
Q But you don't plan to upset that pattern.
A That's correct. We do not, the first year.
Q Now, isn't it true that wherever you have coaching
staffs, you do not plan to have the present pattern of assign
ment upset?
A No, we have not even discussed this matter at all.
Q I see. So that the former Negro schools would have
all-Negro coaching staffs and formerly white schools would hav<
all-white coaching staffs, except for that one little white
man out at Horace Mann High School.
A This has not even been discussed.
Q I see. So you don’t have any plans to integrate the
coaching staffs?
A We have not discussed English teachers or Social
Science teachers or Science teachers o t foreign language teach*
We have not identified individuals, nor have we identified
subject matter departments.
Q I see.
A We have, I believe, a Negro coach at Parkview that
you failed to identify
Q Of course, he is the most insignificant person over
there in terms of --
THE COURT: Strike that remark.
558
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DIRECT - Stimbert 559
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Let me rephrase it.
In terms of seniority and responsibility, he is the
lowest person on the seniority and responsibility list, isn't
that true?
A Not to my knowledge.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, in view of the fact that
our other examination will probably be rather lengthy, I would,
in view of my objection, I respectfully conclude my examinatior
of this witness.
THE COURT: All right. Call your next witness.
MR. LIGHT: Dr. E. C. Stimbert.
Whereupon,
DR. E. C. STIMBERT
having been called as a witness on behalf of defendant, and
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q You are Dr. E. C. Stimbert?
A That's correct.
Q Where do you live?
A I live in Memphis, Tennessee.
Q What is your occupation?
A I am Superintendent of the Schools over the Memphis
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DIRECT - Stimbert 560
city system. There are two systems in the county, the county
system and the city system.
Q Doctor, what educational credentials did you have
that qualified you to attain that position?
A For about thirteen years, I -- well, perhaps we shou .<
go back to, maybe, degrees. An A. B. Degree from Nebraska
Western University, and a Master's Degree from Nebraska Univer
sity, and then some work with U. T., and then I have an honora
degree from Southwestern in Memphis.
Q Is U. T. the University of Tennessee?
A Yes, the University of Tennessee.
And then, from the standpoint of experience, thirteen
years of experience as teacher and coach, principal, superin
tendent in three Nebraska systems; and then five years with
major industrial firms in the Labor Relations Department. For
the past twenty-two years, I have been with the City school
system, first as Director of Instruction, and then as Assistant
Superintendent, and for the last eleven years as the Superin
tendent .
Q Do you also have a honorary Doctorate?
A From Southwestern in Memphis, yes.
Q Have you then been Superintendent of the Memphis
School System during the period that it initiated and has been
carrying out the desegregation of the system?
A Yes, the complete plan or project of desegregating
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DIRECT - Stimbert 561
the Memphis City Schools began in 1960, which would be eight
years ago, so it would be three years after I became Superin-
tendnnt.
Q Has it been part of your duties to supervise that
irocess?
A Yes. About 80, 85 or 90 per cent of the duties fall
in that category.
Q Just briefly tell us what the current status of the
Memphis School System is with regard to desegregation.
A We have all faculties desegregated with the exception
of one. We have 130 school attendance units or administrative
units, some 28 senior high schools, and we began in '60 with
just the first grade, token desegregation, and then accelerates
that without Court order; so that we have completed the elemen
tary in approximately four years, and we took the junior high
school in one year, and the senior high school in one year.
All of our professional meetings, our staff meetings
assignment of people to variaus committees and commissions is
done on a non-discriminatory manner.
Q Did I understand that you had some desegregation of
faculty in each of your schools?
A Yes. Faculty desegregation just began about a year
and a half ago, but in that length of time, beginning with the
Headstart Program in the summertime, two years this summer, at
the present time, as of the beginning of this school year, we
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DIRECT - Stimbert 562
have at least some of the opposite race on the faculty. In
some instances, this is massive. By that, I would define it
as fifty-fifty. In some instances, it may be just a single
teacher.
Q About how many students do you have in your system?
A We have 130,000 students, or 125,000.
Q And what's the racial ratio of your students and
your faculty in the system?
A The Negro pupil population at the elementary is 56
per cent. At the high school level, it's less than that. But
overall, about fifty per cent of our pupi population is Negro.
Q Dr. Stimbert, are you familiar with what has been
called the neighborhood school concept?
A Yes, I think I am reasonably familiar with it. I
think in discussions we sometimes go far afield on definitions
but I think I know what I mean by it.
Q Would you briefly tell the Court what it means to yot
as an educator?
A I suppose that it harks back a little bit to America!
tradition, but actually the neighborhood school concept is jus
what the two words mean. It is a school in a definite neigh
borhood, serving the children of a prescribed number of parent:
in small rural neighborhoods. Of course, this might have been
a single school, but in an urban complex, it is a school where
the children are and where the parents can identify with that
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DIRECT - Stimbert 563
school and the p u p i l s , to o , as fa r as that is concerned.
Q Is i t a concept that has been adopted and used in
the United S ta te s many years before the current r a c ia l d i f f i
c u l t i e s occurred in the sch ools?
A I would say th a t i t i s a part o f our American t r a d i
t i o n , even in urban c e n t e r s , and c e r t a i n ly , even though trends
d evelop , th ose trends disappear and you see the re-emphasis
as f a r as the neighborhood school concept i s concerned.
Q When you say " t r e n d " , you mean other approaches to
the - -
A Other approaches, r ig h t .
Q - - to the assignm ent. Have they tended to be ephemeral
or t r a n s i t o r y ?
A W e l l , someone t r i e s them and they d o n 't succeed , so
they g iv e them up.
Q Is the Memphis system o f assign in g students based on|
the neighborhood school concept?
A Y e s , we began e ig h t years ago with a removal o f a l l
eviden ces o f dual zone l i n e s , having at th a t time s ix maps o f
N egro-w hite f o r elem entary, because we were a b i r a c i a l system ,
and two maps fo r the ju n io r h igh , and two maps fo r the sen ior
h igh .
At the presen t time we ju s t have one s in g le set o f
b o u n d a rie s .
Q Have you been in the courtroom a l l day today during
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DIRECT - Stimbert 564
these proceedings and heard the proposed plan of the Little
Rock system described?
A Yes, I have.
Q Does that also fit your understanding of a neighbor
hood school concept?
A Yes, as far as it goes. As far as it goes in para
lleling our plan, we do have the zones which we call the atten
dance zones. We call them geographical attendance zones or
whatever phrase you want to use, but a school serves a certain
prescribed neighborhood according to the amount of facility
that you have in that building.
Q Have you, at my request, read the testimony given by
Dr. Goldhamraer at the August proceedings in this case?
A Yes, I have read it.
Q Is the proposal that he made in his testimony con
sistent with the neighborhood school concept?
A No, I would say that it is opposed to it.
Q How do educators now characterize or label the sort
of proposal he made?
A Well, I think it’s a total disregard of the parental
interest that might be evinced in the school. It's tied to
large units of attendance and re-structuring a school system
so that the first objective is to mix or to desegregate. That
is the paramount --or priority is given to that.
Q In your professional opinion, what should be the fir*
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DIRECT - Stimbcrt 565
consideration in connection with a public school system?
A Of course, there really is no reason for the existenc
of a public school system except to provide quality education
for all the, I guess we’d have to say, boys and girls and young
people and adults in America today. That's what we have tra
ditionally been bound to in America.
That is not to say that the school system can't change
to reach certain educational objectives, but its first priority
is education.
Q Is this proposal that Dr. Goldhamraer advocates in his
testimony what is now characterized as the educational park
A I believe that's the phrase that we would use to
describe it.
Q In your professional opinion, do you find yourself
in agreement or disagreement with Dr. Goldhammer in his pro
posal to abandon the neighborhood school concept in Little RocI
in favor of the educational park concept?
A I would find myself in disagreement, and I think that
many administrators share my feelings about it, and also many
professors of education and school administration who teach
about such things.
I think it was one of these flares or trends I just
recently read in Max Wolfe's summary of all the educational
park projects in the United States, there was much talk about
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educational parks but very little action.
It would appear to roe that there is a holding back
or a resistance, generally speaking, to the educational park
idea, because it involves such monstrous school administrative
units. I mean all the way up to, perhaps, thousands of pupils,
if you take the extreme point of view about an educational
park.
Q Is there, to your knowledge, any public school systen
in the nation that has converted its entire system to an edu
cational park operation?
A No, I don't know of any. Some are talking about
experimenting with it -- Pittsburg or Seattlo -- but I know of
no school system that has converted completely to the education
park idea.
In the first place, that would be tremendously expen
sive because you would practically have to deny the usage of
any of the facilities that you had.
Q Is then the present state of the educational park
as a concept largely theoretical rather than something that ha«
been tested?
A I'd say it's very theoretical. It's something good
to study and something good to know about, but practically and
realistically, I think we would have to shy away from it.
Q Doctor, just take your time and describe for the
Court the various educational advantages, in your judgment, of
DIRECT - Stimbert 566
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neighborhood school concept over the educational park concept?
A Well, at the present time I think there are more
✓
advantages than ever before, because I think we are seeing the
resurgence of public interest in the public schools, and I
can't help but tie one of the major problems today to this
particular question, the problem of de-centralization, which
stated another way, is involvement of the community in the
school program.
If you get that school program too far from the com
munity it is serving, there will not be this involvement. This
involvement is complex; it is variable, depending on the kinds
of parents. It will differ as far as economic -- as far as
different economic level of communities are concerned. It will,
vary as to the school organization. We will find more of it,
perhaps, at the elementary level, with some depreciating of th<i
effect as you move up through the high school, and certainly
you get none of it at the college level.
But I would definitely have an opinion after some
forty years in this business that theTe is more interest now
among parents, at least in our community, in being involved in
their school in their neighborhood than I have seen for years.
Q All right, at the elementary level, for an example,
would you tell the Court what support the school gets in terms
of specifics from the parents?
A Well, generally speaking, it's quite a wide band of
DIRECT - Stimbert 567
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DIRECT - Stimbert 568
support, running all the way from finance to, perhaps, an under
girding of a new program in the schools, as far as an offering
is concerned.
I guess that would be the wide range of interest
which a community night have. In many schools, particularly
the elementary level again, there would be P. T. A. activity
or some other community group if there is not a P. T. A., in
some cities where P. T. A.’s do not function.
Usually, the families are organized to participate
in school activities. It may be money-raising; it may be open
house; it may be siipport of the teacher by furnishing certain
aid and support, certain services. In some of our schools, th:
happens to be the nursing service. Some mothers come over intc
the first aid room.
In some other schools, it may be as a teacher aide.
There may be someone helping the teacher at certain points to
do certain clerical things so the teacher has more time to do
the actual teaching acts.
I think those are illustrations, perhaps. There are
many more. They will differ as to the particular school com
munity and what those parents wish to do for their school.
Q Is it not uncommon for those parents to buy playgrour
equipment and water fountains and things of that sort?
A In many instances, equipment would be involved. At
the high school level, you’ll find that this is one way that
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DIRECT - Stimbert 569
parents do'express their support, because there will be band
boosters clubs, athletic boosters clubs. There will be other
organizations of dads and mothers to support different programs
There may be one supporting the Future Homemakers Association
and you have your Advisory Committee, and that sort of thing,
which means that the school is playing a very important part
in the lives of not only the boys and girls who are attending
it but in the lives of the parents whose homes are in that area
Q Is all of this desirable and important from the
standpoint of education going on in that school?
A I think it is almost fundamental as far as that is
concerned, unless you want to send your child away to boarding
school.
Q Do you know of any indication of the views of the
United States Office of Education with respect to the impor
tance and desirability of this parental support and involvemen :
A As I said, I really feel a resurgence of interest on
the part of parents because in a good many of the several
projects, as I recall, the instructions are to have a parents'
committee, and if you don't, you may not have your project
funded, which means, again, you are pulling in the people who
hare a very paramount interest in that institution in that com
munity called the school.
I have a feeling that if our schools do not do this,
which is an opinion and perhaps doesn't have any place in the
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trecord, that with our roots not very deep in America because of
our population mobility, we change addresses on 6,000 pupils
every twenty days in our community. And yet here I am, empha
sizing a community school because I feel that that is the one
way that people can particularly have some roots in the com
munity. You are not tearing them up constantly.
Q Dr. Stimbert, there has been a good deal said today
already about the cost of furnishing transportation, and I
suspect the Court is not interested in hearing any more about
the cost. But are there any other disadvantages, from an edu
cational point of view, to installing a transportation system
to haul a child across town to a school away from his home?
A Of course, there is a whole element of time. I gran,
that many children are transported great distances. I suppose
there are some children in the United States going forty to
sixty miles to school. But just because there happen to be
some exceptions in perhaps some consolidated areas in Colorado
or North Dakota, that doesn’t mean that it is wise for every
child to go sixty miles.
I would say that as this child is transported, there
is the element of time in addition to the expense. Certainly,
there is a lack of interest on the part of the home in that
school that becomes a little bit foreign and remote from the
planning that goes on in the community.
Q Are there some dangers incident to this traveling
DIRECT - Stimbert 570
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DIRECT - Stirabcrt 571
and hauling great numbers of children across town?
A Yes, I suppose there are. I would not equate that
with all the dangers that are apparent in the urban complex
today, but I would suppose that every mile traveled adds to the
exposure, as far as safety is concerned. I guess you're safer
if you're across the street than if you had to walk a mile.
Q Do you in your system, and do you know whether this
happens physically in all school systems, havea fairly frequem
situation of small children becoming ill at school?
A Yes, this will happen more or less frequently, depen
ding on perhaps the time of the year when there arc epidemics,
but I suppose in an average elementary school, not a week will
go by without some child needing the attention of the home and
the principal getting in touch with the neighbors of the family
or something of this kind.
Q And with the neighborhood school concept, what is
done with the small child who gets sick at school?
A Well, of course, the nursing service and the contact:
with the home are much closer. We try to keep our elementary
schools planned as rather snail units, within the limits of
maybe the 350 to 400 pupils, so this means you are not serving
a very large area. You are close to those homes and if there i:
an accident or sickness, you can either get in touch with the
parents or neighbors.
Q In that connection, let me ask you if you have had
an opportunity to look at Defendant's Exhibit 26? Have you
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DIRECT - Stimbert 572
had an opportunity to look at that today?
A Yes, I have.
Q Are you familiar with the standards set out in that
table?
A Yes. I don’t know as I appreciated, though I saw
it here, the complete source of the standards, but they are
the standards used in, I'd say, most urban complexes today to
plan the purchasing of sites, your location of schools, and
the size of the schools.
There is an optimum here, and you can get a school
too large, you can get it too small for efficiency's sake.
Q Are those generally accepted standards in your pro
fession for the purpose of planning schools?
A Yes, I would say they are, yes.
Q And are the sources, the agencies listed there as the
sources of those standards, responsible agencies in the field
of education?
A Yes. The American Public Health Association, Nations
Council on SchoolHouse, Guide for Planning School Plants, and
U. S. Department of Health, Education and Welfare, these are
reputable organizations, I would say.
Q What does that indicate as the distance a child
should have to walk to school, maximum distance, at the elemen
tary level?
A Desirable walking radius to school is one-half to
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DIRECT - Stirubert 573
three-fourths of a die.
Q And does it have junior high and senior high?
A Junior high is one to one and a fourth; senior high,
one and a half to two miles.
Q Doctor, in considering the educational concept pro
posed by Dr. Goldhaimner, would a disparity in the average
achievement level of groups of students in the community create
any problem?
A Well, I guess a disparity will always create a prob
lem, but it would seem that the disparity in achievement, the
cause of it, may be what we ought to be talking about. I thin!;
if I read Dr. Goldhammer's testimony correctly that you try to
correct this disparity because it is, perhaps, a racial issue;
when I believe that many authorities today would take issue
with that and say that rather the disparity in achievement
probably has to do with the economic status of the family plus
expectation of peers and a lot of other things.
Q Is this your view?
A This is ray view, yes.
Q Well, how would conversion from the neighborhood
school concept to the educational park concept create problems
with regard to that disparity?
A Well, of course, an educational park, the larger the
unit, the more models of disparity you're going to have in it.
Of course, I think it's rather logical what has to be done nex
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DIRECT - Stimbert
and we have seen it happen that the larger the schools become,
you get some grouping within the school itself.
Q Is this what has been characterized among other
things as the "track system" --
A That's right.
Q -- within the school.
A That's right. Which, of course, is in ill repute at
the present time.
Q Does it create problems for a teacher, educational
problems, for a teacher to have children in a class that are
achieving at a significantly different level?
A I think, administratively, we have to recognize that
there has to be some homogeneous grouping of talent and ability
whether it's for the football team or in the Latin class.
Q Doctor, are you a member of the American Association
of School Administrators?
A Yes, I am.
Q What is that association?
A It is an association of school superintendents and
other individuals with administrative responsibilities in pub
lic, private and parochial schools, plus college professors
who are engaged in the teaching and preparation of these schoo
administrators, some 16,000 members.
Q Is this the national professional association of
people engaged in the business of school administration?
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DIRECT - Stimbert 575
A I would say yes. Thero are some others for certain
branches of administration, but this is one of the major ones,
I would say.
Q Do you happen to be acquainted with Dr. Goldhammer,
also, as an administrator?
A Yes, I know Dr. Goldhammer.
Q Has that Association undertaken to examine the ques
tion of the neighborhood school concept, and has it, as a resulv
of that examination, taken a position on the matter?
A Yes. A few, not too many, years ago, it established
a commission to prepare a study on this particular subject of
school racial policy, I think was the title of it.
Q Do you remember about how many members were on that
commission?
A About -- I couldn't name them, but I think there
were approximately ten on the committee.
Q All right. Were you a member of that?
A I was a member of the committee.
Q And were both Negro and white members on the committ*
A Yes.
Q Was it a fairly representative committee, geographi
cally over the nation?
A Yes, from San Francisco to the East Coast. I recall
the Assistant Superintendent from San Francisco was on it.
Q All right, and what was the--
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DIRECT - Stimbert S76
A The South was represented, and the North.
Q What was the position that that committee adopted
and recommended to the Association?
A Well, we covered many alternatives in the study but
came to the conclusion that the neighborhood school was edu
cationally sound and administratively feasible.
Q Was there any minority report put out by the Com
mission?
A No. I thought when we first began to meet that per
haps there would be; I believe Dr. Arch Shaw was the chairman
of the commission -- that is, the one who performed the secre
tarial rites for the commission. But after a great many sessi<
there was full agreement on the neighborhood school philosophy
as far as the administrative unit for achieving optimum edu
cational results, if you're using education with the broad
capital "E" meaning many of the things that happen to children
Q Was the report of the committee the final action or
was it sent to the whole Association for their adoption?
A It was not adopted by the entire -- the A. A. S. A.,
the American Association of School Administrators works by
commission, and the commission had full authority to come out
with this report.
Q All right.
A The publishers then distributed it, and all members
received copies of it.
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DIRECT - Stimbcrt 577
Q Khat do you understand, from reading Dr. Goldhamraer'«
testimony, to be the purpose of goal to be achieved by the
adoption of the educational park concept?
A Well, if I read correctly and interpret properly, th<
major objective is, of course, a natural mixing of the races -•
in this particular instance, Negro and white, in this particul:r
testimony.
Q Does it seem to be designed to achieve some sort of
racial balance?
A I would say that that is given priority, yes, that’s
number one.
Q Is there any research published in the professional
literature in your profession that supports the position that
racial balance makes a contribution to education or the learning
process?
A I'll tell you frankly if there is something that wii:
contribute to the improvement of the educational process, I
think school administrators would be the first to want to use
it. Many of us are looking avidly or bits of research, real
findings and real data that will prove that certain acts that
we perform, certain projects that we carry out, we can be
accountable for and say this that we have done will be meaning
ful in the lives of the pupils.
At the presnt time -- I can be corrected, and if
someone knows it, I'll be glad to have it -- but I know of no
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DIRECT - Stimbert 578
empirical evidenco, real evidence, that indicates that the
simple playing of the numbers game -- ratios, moving of bodies
around -- under any kind of a plan whatsoever has been success
ful in adding to the quality of education in the place where
it has occurred.
I think we are all on a search for "how can we take
a given child and move him to the maximum of his capacity?"
And I think we ought to quit indicting each other by saying
that we can't learn unless we are sitting next to someone.
This is not educationally sound, actually, because there is no
evidence that just by doing that -- you may create the oppositj
We have had some experiences -- and I say experience;
because they were not experimental -- where just the opposite
was achieved, and we had to route children through the adjust
ment division because desegregation was not that fine experi
ence that we had hoped it would be for some child.
I am not suggesting that we ought to abandon desegre
gation. We are committed to it, enthusiastically and avidly,
but I don't think that is the number one priority. If we
create a quality educational system across the country, maybe
we will begin to solve some of these other problems that look
to be unsolvable because we are dealing with people who cannot
take advantage of the education and arrive at some reasonable
conclusions with the relationships.
Q Based on your experience, Dr. Stimbert, in administei
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DIRECT - Stimbert 579
a quite large biraciol public school district, what would be
necessary administratively for you to be able to maintain a
racial balance of the schools in each school in your system?
A That is one real administrative question. I'd say
two things, perhaps: if you just wanted to think of balancing,
you would have to do it every Monday morning in our school
system. I can only speak of Memphis because I'm not familiar
with the Little Rock system.
But we're talking about racial balance. That is an
achieving thing because of the fact that in your schools, you
are reflecting the mobility of a lot of people, so you would
have to adjust it, unless you had some formula that you just
maintained throughout the year, which, then, would not be raci:
balance.
Secondly, you could achieve racial balance if someone
could control all the other variables, just leave education oul
of it, and say that we will reflect the balance which can be
established by other variables in the community.
Q Are these variables that the local school authoritief
have any control over?
A Have no control over it whatsoever.
Q Just for example, what sort of variables?
A Well, it would be housing patterns, for one thing.
There are certain economic patterns. There are employment pattei
all kinds of things that have an effect on our racial makeup
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DIRECT - Stimbert 580
within a given community.
Q Doctor, did you have an opportunity to examine the
faculty desegregation plan that Mr. Parsons has presented here
this morning?
A Yes, I heard it presented this morning.
Q How would you characterize that proposal, in your
professional opinion?
A I couldn't help but go over one word in my mind as
he talked about it. I think it's a tremendously ambitious
program, and I’m wishing him all the luck in the world. I don
think there is a school system in the United States that would
have accomplishment to its credit, if he can pull it off.
Q That was to be my next question. Do you know of a
school system in the United States that has desegregated a
faculty as he is proposing for September of 1969?
A No, sir, I really don't, because we are just getting
into an understanding of what faculty life is like, outside of
the southeast region of the United States, and we are beginnin
to find out that there is much more faculty segregation than
we knew about. We have been working on it, as I said, in
Memphis, and I suppose this experience might be a little help
ful.
We were going about filling vacancies with the most
positive intent, and we were able to move some four hundred
teachers across what would be considered racial lines, having
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a white teacher teach in the predominantly Negro school, and
back and forth, some four hundred of them without a resignation
Then on Friday before school opened this fall, after
a discussion and we wanted to complete all faculties before
school started, because we had had a discussion with our Judge,
and this was not a Court order, we had a need for 53 teachers
to be moved and it took seventy to fill those 53 vacancies.
Because when you disregard good human personnel in administra
tive practices, you get reactions, and it's about time we begar
to look at parental reactions, teacher reactions and pupil
reactions, and maybe there is something other than just playing
the numbers game.
Yes, we got our 53 teachers, but seventeen -- some
of that seventeen were some of the finest teachers that we had.
I recall one band man that we hated to lose, but because of the
nature of the way vacancies and grade assignments occurred to
desegregate all the faculties but one, it required 53 teachers
and seventeen resigned as a result of it.
Indianapolis has much the same experience that the
week before school opened, they had four hundred that they
needed to move around to desegregate their faculties, and about
25 per cent resigned.
Q Twenty-five per cent resigned of the entire --
A Of the four hundred that they were moving resigned.
This could be verified. I was just in a conversation with the
DIRECT - Stimbert 581
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DIRECT - Stimbert 582
Superintendent and he mentioned this because we were talking
about it.
So I would say that Mr. Parsons' faculty desegrcgatic
plan is extremely ambitious, and certainly we would hope that
it could be carried out successfully.
Q Based on your experience, what problem, if any, is
he like to encounter with teacher morale with regards to this
proposal?
A Well, certainly, he will have to work with the
teachers group to accomplish this, because this was the first
thing that hit us. I think everyone in the courtroom is aware
of teacher militancy, and the action of teachers groups, if yoi
do not confer with them. And, again, I think they have the
same right the parents have in the involvement of them in cer
tain matters that are going to concern them.
A good many teachers are willing to cross this boun
dary line between the races. I would say that it is getting t<
be a more complex operation than it was, say, two years ago.
Maybe this is not true in Little Rock yet, but we are not
finding the acceptance on the part of teachers that we did.
We are finding fewer and fewer good Negro teachers to add to
our payroll because --
Q With whom are you in competition for them?
A Oh, just about everybody. The government and ind
business. When a fine young Negro man or young lady gets a
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DIRECT - Stimbert S83
degree and has a teaching certificate and is well trained, the
are dozens of places that they can go, and the schools are in
competition for them. That's why I say there are certain dif
ficulties in achieving a high level of quality education and
then meeting all the personnel requirements that go along with
it.
Q Is there any educational significance to whether or
not a teacher is happy in her assignment?
A I definitely there is. There is a high correlation
between the satisfaction which an individual has in almost any
job and, certainly, this is true of teachers because you are
dealing with these other human beings, other personnel, and
as I have often said in an audio-visual speech I make, the
best piece of visual equipment in a classroom is a smile on th<s
face of the teacher. And I think this is true.
The atmosphere or the climate that surrounds that
classroom as the teacher and the pupil relate themselves to
each other is one of the most important factors that you con
sider.
Q Is there likely to be much learning going on if the
teacher fails to motivate or establish rapport with the child?
A There'll be much less, that's for sure.
Q All right, what effect have you observed on the
stability of the school with reference to its racial populatio
-- first, Doctor you have had some experience in your system
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DIRECT - Stimbert 584
with schools where the proportion of Negro students had risen
and where you have maintained a majority of the white faculty
members?
A Yes.
Q What effect have you observed on the stability of
the school with reference to its racial population in those
instances?
A Well, I guess many of us in this business have dis
cussed the tilt point that when communities go into transition ,
there is much movement out and movement in. Certainly, Memphis
is as aware of this as Atlanta is. I think the change in
Atlanta is about two per cent.
To answer your question, we may be finding -- and
again not experimentally; we just happened on to this -- that
we have several schools in Memphis where, although they were
formerly all-white schools, the transition began. But the tilt
point seemed to have risen, and one of the reasons may be that
because we made to change in the faculty or the principalship,
only the normal changes have occurred because of resignations
or requested transfers.
So we have several communities where the tilt point
has gone up and up. In other words, it really isn't tilting.
The whites are staying because they see no threat to their
children in attending this school. The quality of education
hasn't changed, so why shouldn't they continue to stay?
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DIRECT - Stimbert 585
Maybe a part of our answer to this whole business is
to create stable communities, and maybe this is one contributic
that the school can make, is to just have a good school, par
excellence, no better. I have heard this suggested by some
others as far as downtown schools are concerned, in the center
city, that what we must do is to make that school so good that
no one wants to leave it.
I believe that in our teacher system, we are getting
some principals and some teachers committed to this idea,
which means we are not going to sit around waiting for bodies
to be moved to get quality education. You are indicting lots
of states and lots of rural areas, if we think the only way
to get quality education is through desegregation.
Now, desegregation should be a part of this whole
process and I am not saying it shouldn't be, and I’d be dedi
cated to it as a principle, at least the removal of all evi-
lences of discrimination educationally. Your law requires it
and our moral obligations ought to perform it.
Q In your professional opinion, are the public schools
n
equipped to solve the social ills and cultural problems that
relate to the racial problem?
A No, I don’t think so. I think we should make a con
tribution, as I suggested awhile ago. I think that some of o u t
teachers who are now functioning in these communities that I
talk about are making a tremendous contribution toward the
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DIRECT - Stirabert 586
solution, but it's not in terms of statistics, ratios and per
centages.
Q In your professional opinion, is there any alternative
to the plan that has been proposed by Mr. Parsons here today
that would be educationally superior to that plan for this
school system?
A I have listened to a discussion of all of the alter
natives and, of course, this is quite similar to our plan with
the addition of the fact that we have a transfer plan, a
transfer procedure tacked on to it.
Now, I can't get into the variations that you might
make of your plan, but it would seem to me that geographical
attendance zones enabling that school to serve a community, no
matter what that community is, is a sound approach. I don't
know of any other at the present time that is educationally
sound or administratively feasible.
MR. LIGHT: Thank you, Doctor.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, could we have about a five
minute recess?
THE COURT: Yes. We will be in recess until 4:00
o'clock.
(A short recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, gentlemen.
CROSS - Stirabcrt 587
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Dr. Stirabcrt, are you aware or familiar with any
county school systems throughout the United States?
A Which one?
Q Any county systems, the general trend in county systems?
A Yes.
Q Is it not so that the general trend in county school
systems has been toward consolidation to provide administrative
units?
A I was superintendent of a consolidated school for
twenty years. That’s an entirely different matter than the
s ubject of neighborhood schools. There you create a rural
neighborhood or a kind of a unit.
Q Create a kind of unit by enlarging the administrative
and attendance zones, is that correct?
A Yes, but you can also --
Q Well, that has been the trend universally throughout
the United States, is that not so, in the last several years?
A Well, I don't know how much of a trend.
Q Are you familiar with any county systems that have
gone the other way toward fractionating the county system into
smaller units?
A No, I am more familiar with urban units. I know that
the urban units are decentralized.
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CROSS - Stimbert 588
Q Are you familiar with the Racial Isolation Report of
1967, and the Coleman Report which preceded it?
A Yes.
Q And have you
A Now, familiarity is a broad band of how familiar.
Q You are familiar with --
A I can't quote from it, if that's what you mean.
Q All right. You have read it or read studies about ii;
and does that recognize those two reports -- are they recog
nized as two of the leading subjects on the literature and
testing of the entire field of school desegregation and integra
tion?
A Well, I would say they are two leading controversial
studies, yes. They are not accepted by everyone, as you know.
Q Not accepted by everyone.
A Absolutely not. They are very controversial studies
Q I see. Racial Isolation included?
A Racial Isolation included, because most of the sta
tistics are based on the Coleman Report.
Q Are you familiar with the theory of the middle-class
school, and the benefits to be derived from the middle-class
school?
A I believe -- let’s check to be sure we know what
we're talking about.
Q I'm sure you understand.
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CROSS Stirabert
turing. I mean the middle-class economic milieu.
Q No, no. I don’t mean the middle-class grade struc-
A Are you talking about four-four-four?
A Then you'll have to explain what you mean.
Q All right.
Is it your view that difference in average grade
589
level achievement and perhaps in I. Q. tests is a correlative
of economic disparity and the individual being tested?
A Yes, even the Coleman Report does suggest that.
Q All right. And the Racial Isolation Report amplifie!
that and states that as one of its definite conclusions, is
that correct?
A It states it as its definite conclusion, but that is
not concurred in by all statisticians.
Q Do you agree with that?
A No, I do not. I do not agree with the Racial Isola
tion Report, if that's what you’re talking about.
Q Do you agree that average grade level achievement is
a function of the economic status of the grade?
A Yes, I'll agree with that.
Q All right, and do you agree that the average grade
level achievement is a function of the school as a whole as
opposed to the individual grade?
A Function of the school as a whole as opposed to --
-- as to the economic status of the school as a wholQ
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CROSS - Stimbert S90
as opposed to the individual grade?
A No, I don't know that I quite understand your concept
of what a school should be. The school, just because it serve;;
a low economic level, doesn’t necessarily have to be that kind
of school.
Q I understand that, sir. I'm asking you is it your
testimony that average grade level achievement is made up most:
-- variables are made up mostly due to economic disparity in
the groups being tested, is that correct?
A Economic, social and other factors.
Q All right. Extra things that are not directly relate
to what you would typically call the racial composition.
A Right. That's correct.
Q Is it your opinion that the average grade level
achievement of economically advantaged groups is superior
generally, according to the acceptable-- according to the tests
than economically disadvantaged groups?
A Yes, that's true.
Q And is that the finding generally found in Racial
Isolation?
A Well, it is also found whether race is a factor or no
You find it in the white low income groups.
Q Is that a generally held conclusion among -- in aimer;
all the literature? Is that correct?
A That's correct, is you'll stay with the economic r>nd
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CROSS - Stirabert 591
social factors.
Q Is it also true that when one tests average grade
level achievement that the economic variable of the school as
a whole is more important than the average economic level of
the individual class?
A This can be a factor, yes.
Q All right. Do you hold with that --
A I said that. Because I did say that the expectation
of peers in that school would have an impact.
Q Do you hold personally that it is?
A I do, yes.
Q Now, is it not true that it is extraordinarily diffi
cult, if not impossible, to have an economic mix in a given
school, based on neighborhood patterns -- in all schools, if
you base them on neighborhood patterns?
A That might be difficulties.
Q All right.
A I do know that it is necessary, I quickly add.
Q Well, is it necessary for a school system to do
everything that it can to maximize the average grade level
achievement of all of its students?
A That is absolutely correct, but you’re saying that
the mix is going to do it, and I am saying that there are otheT
ways of achieving it.
Q All right. I'm asking you only if one method of
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CROSS - Stimbert 592
maximizing the average grade level achievement for all of your
students is to mix, economically, the student population of a
given school?
A Yes, I would agree with that. That is one way.
Q All right. Now, you state that there are other ways
to mix, is that correct?
A No, I didn't say there are other ways to mix. I sai<
there are other ways of achieving a quality school for the low
economic categories.
Q All right, and one of those ways is compensatory edu
cation.
A Yes, that's one of the ways.
Q Are you familiar with the program in New York entitle
"The More Effective School Program"?
A Just slightly familiar.
Q Was that not a program of intensive compensatory edu
cation?
A If you say so. I’m not as familiar with that.
Q I'm just asking you if you know.
A No, I don't know.
Q YOu do not know, and you do not know of the results
in the literature --
A No, I know who sponsors it, but I don't know actually
what the results are. I haven't seen the tabulated results of
what is has accomplished.
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CROSS - Stimbert 593
Q Have you seen in any literature the results of what
it accomplished?
A I have seen in the literature that which the sponsor:;
of the plan have said it will do.
Q And you have seen no verification?
A I have seen no hard data that indicates what it will
do. I am happy that they are trying, however. It’s a good
thing to do.
Q All right. And are you also famiiar with the huge
expenditures of money involved in The More Effective School
Program?
A That is your New York program?
Q That is correct.
Are you familiar with the fact that teacher-pupil
ratios were lessened to one-to-one and one-to-three in some
cases?
A True.
Q And that whole schools were transformed into model
teaching institutions, and several million dollars were spent
on individual units in order to bring up, by compensatory
education, average grade level achievement?
A Right.
Q Do you know of any better way besides compensatory
education to bring up and equalize average grade level achieve
ment?
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CROSS - Stimbert S94
A I believe I gave a few illustrations from our own
situation. I don't know about New York.
Q Average grade level achievement.
THE COURT: Is there any such thing?
MR. KAPLAN: That, in my understanding, was what he'*
talking about.
THE WITNESS: If you're talking -- well, you said a
lot about tests which I didn't say anything about. You've usee
I. Q., and I hadn’t said anything about I. Q.'s.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Let's go back to that, then.
A You brought those up. I didn't.
Q All right, let's discuss I. Q.'s for a moment.
Do you hold with that view which states that I. Q.
tests are also a function of the economic background of the
individual being tested?
A I don't put that much faith in I. Q. tests. Most of
us have very little faith in them. We give them today as some
indication, but certainly in interpretation, you have to do
like any other professional person and use some good common
sense.
Q What measure do you personally use to measure the
achievement and the progress of the individual in the Memphis
school system?
A We have a research department, and when it comes time
to be accountable for what has happened in a special program or
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CROSS - Stimbert 595
in a s p e c i a l program, that is turned over to Research, u s u a l ly ,
f i r s t , by s e t t i n g up b a se l in e data before any p r o je c t ever
b e g in s , and by p r o j e c t , i t can be the second grade, or i t
could be achievement emphasis or i t could be some s p e c ia l
program.
Q But you do use - -
A And you try to f ind out where the pupils are when
you begin th a t program. Maybe yo u 're not looking f o r average
grade achievement. You may be looking fo r a higher standard
o f c l e a n l i n e s s or a d i f f e r e n t change in speech p a tte rn . There
are l i t e r a l l y thousands o f o b je c t iv e s in education other than
t h i s average grade achievement we're trying to ta lk about.
Q Are any o f those paramount o b je c t i v e s ?
A Y e s , s i r , some o f them - -
Q Which are the most paramount?
A I d o n ' t know which are the most paramount. You c an ’ t
* “ i t depends on what I would l i k e .
Q W e l l , you s ta te d that the paramount o b je c t i v e f o r a
school system i s q u a l i t y education.
A Right.
Q So perhsps we had b e t te r get a d e f i n i t i o n o f what i s
q u a l i t y e d u ca tion , so we can get c le a r what these o b j e c t i v e s
a r e .
A When I sa id t h a t , I sa id i t with a c a p i t a l " E " , as I
think the testimony w i l l show, becausel had in mind a l l o f the
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CROSS - Stimbert 596
forces that impinge on that child at the time that he is
maturing so he will grow up to be a functioning citizen in our
society.
Q That includes his home economics and his sports and
his pep club and his band and all of that.
A It could be his work experience; it could be distri
butive education; it could be cosmetology; it could be Latin.
Q Could it be his ability to function in society as it
exists in --
A It could be to make a speech.
Q Could it be his ability to function and relate to
people in the society as a whole?
A Very definitely.
Q That is a part of quality education?
A It would be part of it, yes.
Q Now, when you measure -- when you measure his actual
education in terms of the traditional curriculum which he has
ingested, how do you measure that?
A You’re talking now about the bookish aspect?
Q The bookish aspect, right.
A This is done by standardized tests.
Q All right, and how do you measure that achievement?
A As I said, by standardized tests.
Q And that -- do those standardized tests generally
grouped under the ones that you would hold some validity with
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CROSS - Stirabert S97
average grade level achievements?
A Yes, they do have -- there are certain expectations
in each grade level, but this is adjustable in any smart school,
system.
Q Adjustable?
A Oh, absolutely. We have --
Q All right.
A -- some fifth grade pupils operating very successful!
at the second grade level.
Q Are these normal functioning individuals?
A No. What is normal?
Q I see. These are what you would typically call
retarded, is that correct?
A I wouldn't call them retarded. They may be educa
tionally retarded, but not mentally retarded.
Q Educationally retarded.
A That's right. They haven't had the --
Q Do you have any programs to try and raise the level
of those individuals who would be physically in the fifth grad<
to an educational achievement at the fifth grade level?
A You bet your life we have.
Q Is that what you were talking about in terms of com
pensatory education?
A Not necessarily.
Q What other methods are there?
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CROSS - Stimbert 598
A Because some of that doesn't cost a dime. Usually,
when you say compensatory education, you're talking in terms oJ
compensating for and budgeting for. But you can have an
achievement emphasis program -- that happens to be our name
for it which takes the under-achiever and tries to move him
in as short a length of time up to where he would be a
functioning individual as far as his peers are concerned.
Q This takes special programs, however, and emphasis,
and work with the student, is that correct?
A Why, yes.
Q Are you familiar with the term "inter-stimulation"
of pupils?
A Only in passing as a psychological device.
Q All right. Haven’t you employed psychological device
in your school system to heighten the achievement among pupils?
A Motivation. We experiment with motivation.
Q And that is a motivational device, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q What do you understand inter-stimulation to be?
A A group of individuals having happen pretty much what
is happening here, at the present time, if more were allowed to
speak rather than just the two of us.
Q Is inter-stimulation a direct benefit of the economic
mix of students?
A It might be; it might not be. It would depend on if
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CROSS - Stimbert 599
you were interested in economic mix at that point.
Q If you were interested in raising the average grade
level achievement of a certain group of students, is one of th<
ways that you raise it inter-stimulating them with people of
varying economic and racial backgrounds?
A No, you're putting all your methodology in one baskel
again. It could be that you simply used a reward system. There
is much experimentation at the present time in this field.
What rewards you give is a motivator for pupils. The
psychology magazines and texts are full of them.
We're talking about inter-stimulation. That's one
word we can pick out of thin air, but let's not forget that
there is a gamut of activities that teachers can be trained to
use these days to improve the children and their achievement
in school
Q As a matter of fact, no one educational device and
no one educational method achieves everything, does it?
A That's exactly right. True.
Q Now, can you -- strike that.
What has been your educational experience -- has your
experience been that the Negro neighborhood and the Negro
schools in Memphis have been generally of lower economic back
ground?
A Yes, because I think we have many problems in our
cities, and one is employment. One may be the union problem
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CROSS - Stimbert 600
and union membership. And we had better begin to tackle the
problem as a society problem rather than trying to get educatici
to solve all these ills.
Q Are the problems of the ghetto child directly relatec
to our entire gamut of problems which may be, in some part,
unrelated to school systems?
A Yes, I think that would be a true statement.
Q All right. Is under-employment a function of the
inability of the Negro adult to cope with the educational
requirements of employers?
A That might be the case in a certain category.
Q Is a part of it a heritage in the South? Let’s talk
particularly about the South. Is it a part of it a heritage
of the dual system of schools where there was true any quality
of education?
A A part of it would be that. However, let's talk abot
the North too.
Q Well, let's talk about the South where we live right
now, sir.
tHE COURT: Let's don't get into argument. I think wc
will be carried away by semantics.
MR. KAPLAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Noxv, are these total community problem, then, relatec
to the initial development of the child within the school syste
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CROSS - Stimbert 601
A The total -- say that again?
Q These problems of under-employment, the problems of
inability of the Negro adult to cope with the employment edu
cational requirements, with the heritage of the dual school
system. Are some of these in some fashion directly related to
the initial school environment of the Negro child?
A To the school environment?
Q To the school environment of the Negro child.
A Let me be sure I understand you, because I think
there is something involved in that question. He can be a chi:
from a broken home. Whatever these factors are, the child
comes to school, and if you’re saying that --
Q Mr. Witness, I do not care to generalize about the
entire community. I'm asking you about some of the specific
problems which you have identified as community problems. Are
they directly related to the child, the Negro child's initial
experiences in school?
A No, that's a different question.
Q That's the one I would like for you to answer.
A That one I can answer. Yes, they are directly relat<
Q All right. If the Negro school is perpetuated with
out the ability of the child to achieve at significantly
high levels, will these problems continue to be perpetuated?
A Absolutely. But your question was an Miff-y" one.
Q I'm not -- I'm jast asking you to answer the question
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CROSS - Stimbert 602
- You don't understand the question?
A I can only answer an "iff-y" question in an "iff-y"
manner.
Q Okay. And you're doing fine so far.
You talked about the parental interest in the public
schools. Isn't it true that the consolidated school districts,
the large consolidated school districts across the United
States in various county systems, have their own parental con
stituency even though they are not drawn from a neighborhood?
A They have a constituency, yes.
Q All right. And this constituency is generally made
up of parents, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q The college which you spoke of as having no consti
tuency has its own unique constituency in its alumni, is that
correct?
Yes.
Q Isn't it true that whenever schools systems have
moved even a small portion away from the absolute strict
adherence to the neighborhood school system, they have main
tained their constituency, is that correct?
A No, it is not correct.
Q All right, let's take specifically the example of
pairing of schools. Do you know of any example where schools
have benn paired with intermingling of the two paired schools
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CROSS - Stirabert 603
parental groups have not taken place?
A No, I don't know of any.
Q All right.
A Because I don't know of any such schools.
Q So at least with pairing, you don't lose the neigh-
borhood concept but rather further develop and aid it, isn't
that true?
Q
THE COURT: He said he didn’t know of any pairing.
THE WITNESS: I don't know of any pairing.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Oh, I'm sorry.
Do you know of any schools at all which are not
neighborhood schools?
A No, sir, I don't believe I do.
Q All right, sir.
A The closest I could come to it would be a vocational
school. For example, technical high school.
Q Do you have such a high school? A vocational school'
A We have one, yes.
Q You have one. Do you have a football team?
A Yes.
Q Do they have a pep club?
A Yes.
Q Do they have a boosters' club?
A Well, now, not parental.
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CROSS Stimbert 604
Q Do they have a band?
A Yes.
Q Are there parents --
A The parents are not involved, and there is very little
interest as far as the parents are concerned.
Q I see. Isn't it true that parental involvement in
given schools leads to inequality of education because of the
schools relying on money expenditures from outside the system?
A No, I wouldn't suscribe to that.
Q All right. How about the bands or the boosters'
clubs in your more affluent communities in Memphis and in your
«ghetto communities in Memphis?
A I don't know of a school without a band. We furnish
the instruments.
Q How about the appurtenances, bus transportation, and
the other things? That's all equal?
A All equal.
Q And the other parental money that is expended. What
kind of parental money is expended?
A They seem to be interested in their schools.
Q I see. What other kind of parental money is expend'
The playground equipment — are the playgrounds and the gym
nasium facilities the same in all sections of your city?
A No, it would differ in our particular system. They
do not furnish playground equipment. They may in some other
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systems, but we supply now.
CROSS _ Stirabcrt 60S
Q I see. Who runs the educational systems in terras of
the curricular and the extracurricular programs which will be
offered? Is it the school administrators or the parents?
A I would say parents and teachers have more to say
about it than anything else.
Q How about the curricular, the strict curricular
activities?
A Well, some of that, of course, is controlled by Statu
law.
Q And the rest of it is controlled by your administra
tive staff.
A No, that's not true. You've picked on the wrong per
son this time because in our particular school --
Q Oh, I didn't know I was picking on anybody.
A No, I meant that jokingly, facetiously.
THE COURT: Let's get along.
THE WITNESS: I meant it just as a reaction because
in our particular system, there is much teacher and parent
involvement. That's what I mean.
THE COURT: Let's get away from all these generaliti;
and try to get down to this lawsuit.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Do you know when the neighborhood school concept
first appeared?
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CROSS - Stimbert
A Long before I came on the educational scene, and I've
been in it about forty years, and I suppose --
Q Do you know -- I'm sorry. I didn't mean to inter
rupt you.
A That's all right.
Q Do you know whether it first appeared in an educa
tional or a planning concept?
A Well, from my history of education -- and this is
certainly a generality -- certainly, a community sensed that
it had a certain need. As we go back to the early days of the
public school in America, we see a community having a school
that satisfied certain community needs at that point. America
was rural, and maybe it was as simple as teaching somebody how
to be a minister. Certainly, reading, writing and arithmetic,
and it was very close to the community that it served.
Q Now, do you know whether it first developed as a
planning concept or as an educational concept?
A Both, I would suppose.
Q Both. All right.
You stated that your first objective in education or
your first objective in the administration of public schools
is quality education.
Now, can the variables that you have listed within
the makeup of the broad capital "E» education change from time
to time?
60b---
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CROSS - Stimbert 607
A ' In the broad variables outside?
Q No, no. Inside the makeup of the capital "E" educa
tion. Can they change from time to time?
A Yes, I would think that they could.
Q What factors go into changing the makeup from the
capital "EM education?
A Oh, I think one of the biggest changes we have seen
is the swing from a rural-dominated education in our system to
an urban. I think that the needs in a city are different.
Children in our city have to transport themselves on buses.
If they want to go Saturday to a movie someplace, they have to
ride the public transportation.
Q It is not unique in an urban atmosphere, then, for
children to be thoroughly familiar with the transportation
systems in the city, is that correct?
A Generally speaking, although we will have some chil
dren living four blocks from the Mississippi River who have
never seen it. And the school system has an obligation at thi;
point, I would like to point out.
Q Is that obligation to familiarize themselves with ai:
aspects of the community?
A That1s right.
Q All right, and they can adjust to those aspects, is
that correct?
A Within certain limits, yes.
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CROSS - Stimbert 608
Q Are you familiar with the Coleman Report -- I'm sorry
-- with the Racial Isolation Report's conclusion that children
who have undergone integrated educational experiences tend to
prefer their own children to remain in integrated educational
experiences?
A No, I'm not familiar with that particular line.
Q Has your system itself been involved in court liti
gation involving the desegregating of your schools?
A Yes, we are under Court order.
Q You are presently under Court order.
A Since 1960.
Q And continued under Court order?
A Yes.
Q Has your neighborhood school plan been under attack
since that time?
A At the present time, we are submitting, at the Court
instructions, all of our data statistics. I don't know that
there is any question particularly.
Q But you are under continuing Court review of your
neighborhood school system?
A And any changes that we make in boundary line or
Q And is the last litigation involving your school
system an attack — the last litigation, not necessarily your
last submission -- on the neighborhood school concept such as
you have implemented?
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CROSS - Stimbert 609
A It might have been because ray testimony has been
about the same today as it would have been then.
Q Has Shelby County, which surrounds the City of Memphis
school system, been placed under Court order to balance the
schools in a racially balanced manner?
A What was the question?
Q Shelby County surround the City of Memphis --
A Yes, but what was the question?
Q Has Shelby County been placed under Court order to
racially balance its schools?
A Yes.
Q Now, you talked about a tilt point. Will you define
for the Court what a tilt point is?
A Well, I don't know that I am the expert on tilt points
Q Well, just as you use it.
A As I used it, it means that in a given community --
let's begin with an all-white -- that you begin to have some
desegregation patterns within the community, the residential
part of it, and so as your school enrollment increases and the
Negro enrollment becomes a greater percentage, generally speaki
across the country there is some statistical evidence that that
tilt point is about -- what is it -- about 38 per cent, that
when your school enrollment gets 38 per cent Negro enrollment,
the movement in the community — I'm talking about the resiuen-
tial pattern --is such that you end up with an all-Negro
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CROSS - Stimbert 610
school the next fall.
Q When the percentage of the student body in the com
munity as a whole is how much?
A Well, this is a fluctuating percentage but at the
present time those that I have heard discuss have said 38 per
cent, 35 to 40 per cent.
Q What is the tilt point in your community where your
total population of school-age children is approximately 52 to
58 per cent?
A Well, as I just said, the tilt point percentage
changes, and it changes in an urban set-up such as Memphis.
We had entire areas, block after block, that tilted at 20 per
cent. Way back at the beginning, they tilted the first time a
Negro student entered the school.
Now, it's up to the point where, as I testified a
while ago, some schools because of the nature of those schools
have a tilt point that's much higher. We would like to see the
community stabilize.
Q Do you have any tilt point schools that are -- that
have not yet received a tilt point where the percentage of
Negroes in that school far exceed the number of Negroes in the
school system?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where is that? What's the percentage?
A I would say up around 70, 75 or 80 per cent in three
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;ROSS - Stimbert 611
r four different situations.
Q Has it been your experience in the Memphis school
;ystein that once a given school is over-balance with the per-
:entage of Negroes being far in excess of their percentage in
;he school system as a whole that the school becomes rapidly
Jegro? All Negro.
A With the exception of that one phrase "the percentag<
>f Negroes in the school system", because that would mean 52
>er cent. I think historically it's been less than that.
Q Okay.
A But I see some evidence that there is a trend in the
ther direction, hopefully.
Q Now, you state that in your opinion, in your educational
spinion, that the plan as proposed by the Little Rock School
3oard is the best single educationally sound plan that you can
think of, is that correct?
A Yes, gathering that from Mr. Parsons --
Q Have you studied any of the previous proposals by thcl
Little Rock School District?
A No, I have not. Only those that have been discussed
today.
q Let's look for a moment at the school district
colored in green on this exhibit right in front of you, Defen
dant's No. 22. It covers, as you can see, large area of the
city, is that correct? Geographical area.
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CROSS - Stirabert 612
A I suppose. Yes.
Q And the high school is in the lower third quadrant
of that, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Now, would you assume that -- can we stipulate that
the upper corner is more than two miles away?
MR. ROTENBERRY: There is a scale on there.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Well, assuming that the upper quadrant or the upper
portion of this development which you have heard here today
referred to as Walton Heights and Candlewood is more than two
miles away, it is more than the optimum figures as reported in
the Metroplan, is that correct?
A I think there was about two miles involved.
Q Let's say it's approximately, for purposes <f this
question, approximately four or five miles. Do you agree that
children would have to in some manner be transported to that
facility?
A In some manner, yes.
Q Now, if that facility had a geographic attendance
zone that stretched laterally across this, would it make any
difference -- given equal highways and equal portions of the
city -- whether they came from the lower right-hand corner and
were transported or whether they came from the extreme upper
left-hand corner?
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CROSS - Stimbert 613
A Now we're getting into the Little Rock plan. I
believe Mr. Parsons testified that in his plan there was some
of that, and I think I'll refer you back to his testimony.
Q Well, you testified that in your view this was the
most educationally sound program.
A Yes. Geographic attendance zones. I didn't say how
to
Q Not this plan?
A I said geographical attendance zones is a good plan
for the administrative operation of a school system.
Q Were you referring specifically to this plan?
A No, sir, not specifically to a given line on a given
street. I wouldn't know that much about Little Rock.
Q All right, now, if it were possible to draw a geo
graphic line in an east-west direction as opposed to a north-
south direction, and that would achieve substantial racial
balance, would you say that that plan was a more satisfactory
plan in terms of its overall educational impact than a plan
which had no racial integration in several schools involved?
A 7If the only refthafi it was done was to achieve
balance, then it's no better.
Q Is it any worse?
A It would be no worse or no better.
Q No worse or no better.
A No.
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CROSS - Stimbert 614
Q If it had no detriment at all from the plan which
achieved no integration -- no racial balance and no racial
integration, but had the added benefit of achieving racial
b alance, what would you say of the comparative value of those
two plans?
A Comparative ratio of probably zero, it wouldn’t make
any difference, unless you’re going to look at the movement
of bodies by race as a contributing factor to education --
Q Is it any factor at all?
A Not really.
Q Not at all.
A Not at all, as far as education is concerned.
Q Could the economic mix of the classroom -- only with
regard to race at the moment -- is the economic mix of the
classroom of any value whatsoever?
A Yes, I would say so.
Q If, regardless of race, a method were devised to
balance the school economically, as far as its economic balance
and mix, would that have any special benefits intrinsic in
itself?
A Yes, it would have some value.
Q And that would be a constituent of the capital "E”
education?
A I would think so, yes.
Q But it is your testimony that the racial mix would
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not be a constituent of the capital "E" education? Race, per
se.
A Race, per se, right.
Q Do you consider it of any value in facing the adult
like, which you have said has some importance in the educational
scheme, that a child be confronted with an integrated atmos
phere in his educational experiences?
A I would say that probably the educational system may
offer some of that in other ways than by the kind of activities
we're describing.
Q What other ways?
A Well, the athletic programs, for example. There are
other kinds --
Q Do you mean athletic programs where a white team
plays a
A We are a desegregated society, to a certain extent,
as far as some activities are concerned. Or those that ore no':
desegregated can be desegregated. It doesn't necessarily have
to mean that this particular child cannot learn or can learn
better if there issomeone of the opposite race next to him.
That's all that I have said. That, as a factor, per se, has
nothing to do -- I've got more faith in Negro children than to
believe they have to have that condition before they can learn
Q Just before we conclude, let me see if I can recapiti
CROSS - Stimbert 615
late what you're saying.
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CROSS - Stimbert 616
Q Are you saying that a constituent of the capital "E"
education is the ability of the child to cope with and apprecii
his social atmosphere around him and the society around him?
A Right.
Q It is incumbent upon the school system to help him
develop his self-concept of his place in that society as well
as the way he looks at that society and that society looks at
him?
A Very definitely.
Q Is that an important function of the school?
A Very important function.
Q Very important.
A Yes.
Q Is that ability, that self-concept, and that ability
of the society to relate to the individual one which involves
getting along in a racially mixed society?
A Yes, that's true.
Q Do you know of any way in which white children are
aided in this method of adjusting to the integrated society
other than involvement in the integrated schools?
A Yes, there would be many.
Q All right, tell me.
A Have you got a week?
Q Tell me as best you know how.
THE COURT: We don't have a week.
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CROSS - Stinbert 617
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Tell me without expending a week.
A Well, the only activities that I'm enumerating are
those that have to do with the classroom itself, because there
are many other kinds -- community and social and athletic and
recreational, cultural. It's limitless,
q All right.
A And I'm conscious of the fact that we are trying to
do some of those things, and I think it is terribly important
that we do it.
Q Can you tell me what the school is doing, specifical
any development within the school itself, that you are doing
to aid this process on behalf of the white child?
A Which one of the 130?
Q Tell me anything tht the Memphis schools are doing
to aid this process in a non-integrated white school, on behalf
of the white children. YOu have identified it as a problem
that the white children should be aided with by the school.
Now, tell me what the schools do to aid in this -~ in the white
schools, without integration.
A Well, when you say "white schools", aren't you over
looking the fact that I said all but one school has desegregate
faculties?
Q Tell me how many --
A When the girls -- I’ll be very specific, and I don't
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know that it's helpful at all -- but in our, shall we call it
CROSS - Stimbert
"silk stocking" neighborhood, the girls at White Station High
School are taking home economics and learning about consumer
buying and the best cuts of meat and how to prepare them and
how to plan a party. Those girls are all taking home economic:;
under a Negro home economics teacher.
It just seems to me that that’s just as important
as anything we’ve talked about.
Q How many Negro teachers do you have at that white --
at that "silk stocking" school?
A About four at that school at the present time. There
will be more than that.
Q How many teachers do you have there at that school?
A At that school, around sixty.
Q Well, do you have --
A We’re playing the numbers game again, you see.
Q We’ve been playing that all along.
A Yes, that’s our difficulty.
Q Now, tell me something else that that school does --
is that an all-white schools in terms of its pupils?
A No, it has about -- you say "all-white" school again
and I picked one way out east -- but actually it has about
a hundred or 125 Negro pupils.
Q Do you have any all-white schools in the Memphis --
A Yes, we have small all-white schools.
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CROSS Stimbert 620
Q How many?
A Probably fifteen or twenty.
Q Fifteen or twenty.
A Out of a hundred and thirty.
Q All right. What do you do for the pupils in those
schools to help then meet this objective which you say is
important to the school child?
A The desegregation of faculty, the complete desegre
gation of the athletic program, all --
Q All right, wait a second, let's take them one at a
time.
In the desegregation of the athletic program, insofar
as those children in those all-white schools, what does that
mean?
A That means plenty.
Q What does it mean in terms of where does the desegre
gation take place?
A Desegregation takes place not only on the athletic
field, but on the -- at the event itself. I'm talking about
the event itself. This is only one of the --
Q Would they be competitive with the other student
bodies?
A Right. Yes, definitely.
THE COURT: I understand that.
THE WITNESS: And children from all the schools go
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to journaiiSIil class. That's why I said it would take a week
to list all the things that are absolutely sponsored by either
community groups or by the school that have no racial label on
then. But the children and the young people experiencing those
are getting desegregated experience.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Mr. Stimbert, is you have de facto residential segre
gation in a city, how do you cure that in terms of the neigh
borhood school system concept?
A I'm not about to attempt to give you a formula for
curing de facto segregation.
Q Is pairing one of the ways?
A I would doubt it.
Q You doubt it?
A I doubt it.
Q Is an educational park one of the ways?
A No.
Q It is not one of the ways.
A No.
Q Is transportation one of the ways?
A I don't think this is a school problem. I don't
think de facto segregation is the school's problem.
Q Do you see the schools having any possible solution
to that problem?
A Yes, I've been describing some of them in my testino:
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0 « Is the neighborhood scliool concept the only valid
educational theory?
A Is the what now?
Q The neighborhood school concept the only valid edu
cational theory?
A I would say at this point in our development as a
nation, yes, and it's becoming increasingly more important. I
don't think there is any question about it.
Q Do you have any statistical date which supports your
view that it is safer to walk to school than to have children
transported to schools in terms of accidents?
A No, I have no statistics. A child walking across the
street can get killed as far as that’s concerned.
MR. KAPLAN: Thank you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q Only one point, Dr. Stimbert.
Would whatever educational benefits that might accru :
from an economically mixed school be worth the price of aban
doning the neighborhood school system to achieve it?
A No, because as I said, there are many variables, and
the economic variable is only one. I tried to make that point,
that the school would have to be concerned with all the vari
ables .
REDIRECT - Stirabcrt ^
622
MR. LIGHT: Thank you, sir.
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RECROSS - Stimbert 623
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Would you say the pairing of schools would require
abandonment of the facilities, as you understand that concept?
A Not necessarily, depending again on the location in
the city, whether you paired two schools, whether you paired
four, whether you abandon one and used three.
Q Does the educational park necessarily contemplate
anything other than future development of schools?
A Most of the discussions that I've heard about educa
tional parks do pertain to the future development.
Q Have you ever taught teachers?
A Have I ever taught teachers?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q Where?
A At Memphis State University, for about ten years,
a 7:00 o'clock in the morning class.
MR. KAPLAN: Thank you.
MR. LIGHT: Do you teach college professors, too, on
occasion?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. KAPLAN: That's all.
THE COURT: We will recess until 9:15 in the morning.
(Whereupon, at 4:50 o'clock, p.m., the above-entitled
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624
proceedings were in recess, to reconvene at 9:15 o'clock, a.m.
on the morning of the following day, December 20, 1968.)
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
DELORES CLARK, et al, *.
Plaintiffs, 5
v. No. LR-64-C-155
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE ;
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, et al, :
•
Defendants. ;
U. S. Post Office and Courthouse
Little Rock, Arkansas
Friday, December 20, 1968
BE IT REMEMBERED, That the above-entitled matter
was continued after adjournment from December 19, 1958, before
the Honorable GORDON E. YOUNG, United States District Judge,
commencing at 9:15 o’clock, a.m.
APPEARANCES:
On behalf of plaintiffs:
JOHN W. WALKER, Esq., and
BURL C. ROTENBERRY, Esq., of
Walker & Rotenberry,
1820 West Thirteenth Street,
Little Rock, Arkansas; and
PHILLIP KAPLAN, Esq., and
JOHN P. SIZEMORE, Esq., of
McKath, Leatherman, Woods & Youngdahl,
711 Nest Third Street,
Little Rock, Arkansas.
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On behalf of defendants:
HERSCHEL H. FRIDAY, JR., Esq
ROBERT V. LIGHT, Esq., and
JOE D. BELL, Esq., of
Smith, Williams, Friday &
Boyle Building,
Little Rock, Arkansas.
Bowen,
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C O N T E N T S
WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT
Winslow Drummond 628 645 652
Dr. Dan W. Dodson 655 691
Afternoon Session - 714
Dr. Dan W. Dodson,
Resumed 714 734
William R. Meeks, Jr. 740
Dr. Edwin N. Barron, Jr. 752 766 769
William R. Meeks, Jr.,
Recalled 772 775 -
T. E. Patterson 780 784 -
Floyd W. Parsons,
Recalled
Harry Fov/ler 794 - mm
w M
EXHIBITS
For Identification In
Plaintiff’s:
No. 3 745
No. 4 749
No. 5 774
No. 6 800
Defendant’s:
No. 28 649
Nos. 29, 30 776
RECROSS
739
788
evidence
745
749
800
649
776
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P R O C E E D I N G S
THE COURT: Now, how shall we proceed this morning,
gentlemen?
For the convenience of the parties and their witness ;
how shall we proceed this morning?
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, the defendants, subject to
no cross examination of Dr. Goldhammer, subject to putting the
copies of the exhibit from the Metroplan report and, Your
Honor, subject to verification, it has been called to my
attention the Oregon report we put in may not be complete.
Mr. Walker would want that in and, by agreement, we
can substitute one that is complete.
THE COURT: Are these pages from the Metroplan —
the three that were handed to me?
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, the two pages that were
put in out of it showed the makeup by officers and participant
and the only reason I put this in was just to show — this is
the second page, and really the standards appear on page 33.
The fir3t one did nothing but to show the participants in the
Metropolitan Area Planning Commission.
THE COURT: That is in addition to an earlier exhibd
MR. FRIDAY: No sir. I pulled these out of the large
report and just wanted to put in these two pages from the
report. One simply identifies who is in Metroplan, the first
page, and page 33 is a copy of the standards we have talked
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about. •
THE COURT: What are the three pages the Clerk
handed me?
HR. FRIDAY: They shouldn't have been there, Your
Honor.
Subject to that, we are going to rest in chief,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. The plaintiffs may proceed.
MR. WALKER: Thank you, Your Honor.
MR. ROTENBERRY: Your Honor, I would like to call
Mr. Winslow Drummond.
THE COURT: All right.
|| Thereupon,
WINSLOW DRUMMOND
having been called as a witness by counsel for plaintiffs,
and having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q For the record, Mr. Drummond, would you state your
name, your residence address, and your occupation, please?
A Winslow Drummond, 7314 "F" Street, Little Rock. I
am a lawyer.
Q For how long have you been a practicing attorney in
Little Rock?
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A ' Eleven and a half years.
Q You are presently a member of the Board of Directors
of the Little Rock School District, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And for how long have you served in such capacity?
A Slightly more than two years.
Q Were you elected in September of 1966?
A That is correct.
Q Mr. Drummond, are Board members elected from the
community at large, or do they run from districts within the
School District?
A They are elected from the community at large.
Q Are you familiar generally with the high school
attendance areas in which the other Board members reside?
A Yes, sir.
Q Can you state in which attendance area the other
Board members reside?
A With the exception of Mr. Patterson — are you
talking about on this plan, Mr. Rotenberry?
Q Yes, on the School Board's proposed plan, Defendant'
Exhibit 22.
A With the exception of Mr. Patterson, all of the
members of the Board reside in the Hall High attendance zone.
Q And does that include yourself?
A Yes, sir.
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Q - Mr. Drummond, were you present at a meeting of the
School Board on November 15th of this year at which the School
Board adopted a resolution approving Defendant’s Exhibit 22,
the proposed attendance zone plan?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was there discussion of that plan prior to a vote
being taken thereon?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was there consideration of that plan by individual
Board members prior to that meeting?
A Speaking only for myself, I had not seen the plan
until it was presented at the Board Meeting on November 15th.
Q How did you vote on the resolution, Mr. Drummond?
A On the resolution to adopt the plain, as reflected
on Defendant's Exhibit 22, I voted against it.
Q I believe you were one of two of the seven Board
members voting in opposition to the proposed plan, is that
correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, just prior to the vote being taken on that
meeting on November 15th, I believe you made a statement
expressing your reasons for your opposition to the plan, whict
statement you had reduced to writing at that time, is that
correct?
A Yes, sir. The statement was actually prefatory to
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a motion which I made, which motion was defeated.
Q Your statement, the verbatim text of your statement,
has been introduced into this record as, I think, Defendant's
Exhibit 27 as a part of the minutes of that meeting.
Referring to the text of your statement, appearing
in Defendant's Exhibit 27, Mr. Drummond, does that appear to
be the full text of your statement?
THE COURT: Let's assume that it is.
THE WITNESS: I am sure it is. The minutes, I believe
that were prepared by the School District's office.
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q Would you state, without reading your statement,
the reasons as expressed therein that you opposed the adlopticn
of the present plan?
A Essentially, I opposed it — I think there were
several reasons stated, but the primary reason was that I
thought the plan, in effect, was prepared by the members of
the Board, as the members of the Board are required, of course,
to prepare a plan, but the members of the Board who voted in
favor of the plan had overriden the judgment of the Superin
tendent as to what should be done.
The Board had actually laid down policy guidelines
for the Superintendentat a meeting held in September, and I
felt that an earlier proposal drawn up by the Superintendent
met those policy guidelines one hundred per cent; and for tha1
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reason,, I felt that the judgment of the professional educator
who is hired to administer the affairs of our District had bee
overriden.
Q Hr. Drummond, you referred to an earlier proposal
or plan drawn up by the Superintendent pursuant to guidelines
laid down by the Board at a meeting on September 2«4, is that
correct?
THE COURT: I believe that’s been referred to as
the October 10th plan.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I wasn't sure about the
September date when the guidelines were laid down, if that’s
the date.
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q Was there a meeting of the School Board on September
2Hth?
A Hr. Rotenberry, that's the date — yes, that's
correct.
Q And was it at that meeting that the Board prescribed
guidelines within which the Superintendent was to promulgate
a plan for implementing desegregation in the Court's re-settinj
of this hearing in August?
A Yes.
Q Would you look at Plaintiff's Exhibit 2, and state
whether or not those pupil enrollment figures reflect the
Superintendent's proposal as distributed to the Board pursuant
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to the Board’s directive of September 24?
A That is correct.
THE COURT: What is that Exhibit number?
THE WITNESS: Plaintiff's Exhibit 2.
BY HR. ROTENBERRY:
Q Now, did you favor that proposal or tentative plan
over the one ultimately adopted?
A Yes, sir.
Q And why did you favor that proposal over the plan
presently adopted?
THE COURT: He has already given what he said were
the primary reasons. I guess he is asking for other reasons.
THE WITNESS: Well, I felt that this particular plan
and the only difference between the two — of any importance as
far as the actual plan itself is concerned is that the tentativ
proposal of October 10th would have provided some negro enroll
ment at Hall High School, whereas the plan reflected in Defend
ant’s Exhibit 22, in effect, provides none.
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q According to the projections made in the proposal
of October 10th, Plaintiff's Exhibit 2, what would have been
the projected negro enrollment at Hall High School?
A Eighty pupils for the 1969-70 school year.
Q Mr. Drummond, Mr. Parsons has previously testified
that the small number of negro students at Hall High School
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is an undesirable situation. Do you agree with the Superintendj-
ent’s judgment in that respect?
A I do.
Q Do you feel his proposal contained there in Plain
tiff’s Exhibit 2 would have to some extend remedied an undesir
able situation?
A Not fully, but certainly to some extent, it would
have.
Q I take it that the proposal of October 10th, did it
involve any kind of a transportation system?
A No, sir.
Q Did it merely involve the location of boundary lines
in a slightly different position?
A Well, depends how you interpret the word "slightly".
It did involve different boundary lines.
THE COURT: But of no significance, particularly,
except for the Hall boundary line.
THE WITNESS: That is correct, Your Honor.
The only difference, really, was with respect to
the Hall boundary lines. I believe there were some other
changes with respect to certain elementary schools which Mr.
Parsons outlined yesterday.
THE COURT: Would they have had any appreciable
effect on the racial —
THE WITNESS: At the elementary level?
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THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Frankly, I do not know.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q Mr. Drummond, going back just a moment, what were
the guidelines prescribed by the Board at its meeting on
September 24th for Superintendent Parsons to work within in
the development of a plan?
THE COURT: Mr. Rotenberry, they are in evidence.
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q Mr. Drummond, with reference to previous orders of
this and other courts regarding the implementation of deseg
regation in this School District, what do you understand your
obligation to be as a School Board member?
A I have an affirmative obligation to see to it that
a dual school system is eliminated in this community and,
conversely, that a unified system is established.
Q Would this include the formulation of policy and
guidelines designed to disestablish a pre-existing dual
system?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would this include the formation of policies and
guidelines to eliminate racially identifiable schools?
A As I understand the Constitution, it would be.
Q As you interpret Defendant's Exhibit 22, the pupil
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desegregation plan, will it eliminate racially identifiable
schools in this district?
A Ho, sir.
Q What are the reasons why it will not?
A Well, I feel that with this type plan, we have,
quote, Negro, unquote, schools in certain areas of the city
and, quote, white, unquote, schools in other areas, and they
will be identifiable as such.
Q Why will that be the case, Mr. Drummond?
A Because of the student enrollment at the particular
school. This will be the primary reason.
I think there will, perhaps, be others, such as the
names of the schools.
Q Does it have anything to do with the housing patter
in the District?
A Very definitely.
Q Do you think — were you aware of the housing patterr
— did you take the housing patterns within the District into
consideration at the time various alternative plans were
considered?
A I'm not sure which plans you’re referring to, Mr.
Rotenberry. We have had a number of plans.
Q The alternatives considered since this hearing was
recessed last August.
A Yes, housing patterns in the city were considered.
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Q , Were considered by you?
A M e , personally?
Q Yes.
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know whether or not they were considered by
other Board members?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is it your testimony that the Board was aware or
conscious of existing housing patterns at the time they
developed the proposed plan?
A Yes, sir.
Q Mr. Drummond, would you agree that the proposed
plan embraces what is called the neighborhood school concept?
A At the elementary level, yes, and at the junior
high level, probably. At the senior high level, to a lesser
extend. And I think this naturally follows from the fact that
it’s difficult to describe, for example, the green arrow in
Defendant’s Exhibit 22 as a neighborhood.
Q We will agree. But what I'm getting at is this.
Would you describe the proposed plan as a neighborhood school
system, as distinguished, say, from an educational park systen
or a system involving pairing?
A Yes, sir.
Q Mr. Drummond, without suggesting that the neighborhc
school concept is in all circumstances educationally unsound,
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are there reasons why you think it may be educationally
unsound in this instance?
A Please understand, Mr. Rotenberry, I am not a
professional educator —
Q I understand that.
A — but I personally feel that with the exception
possibly of the convenience of the students in getting to
school, and from my experience on the Board, it seems to me
more probably the convenience of the parents of the students,
the neighborhood school system, in my opinion, does not have
much to commend it from am educational standpoint.
Q Do you feel that there were or are other alternative
approaches besides this neighborhood school concept that are
both educationally sound and feasible?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you state what you feel some of these alter
natives are?
A Well, the best one I have seen was prepared by the
Superintendent in December, 1967, the so-called Parsons Plan.
Q That involved zoning and a transportation system,
did it not?
A At the high school level, it involved zoning; it
involved a transportation system at the high school level,
and also pairing or complexes in two areas of the city for
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elementary age children.
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Q Mr. Drummond, in that connection, there has been
testimony concerning a pairing of five elementary schools to
be known as the Beta Complex. Are you familiar with that
proposal, that idea?
A Yes, sir, that was part of the Superintendent's
plan of December, 1967. It involved Lee, Franklin, Oakhurst,
Garland and Stephens Schools in what I would call the near
southwest portion of the city.
THE COURT: Please give me the names again, Mr.
Drummond.
Franklin.
THE WITNESS: Lee, Oakhurst, Stephens, Garland, and
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q What were, as you understand it, the objectives of
the Beta Complex?
A The objectives of the Beta Complex were several;
one, to stabilize residental patterns in a traditional neighbc:
hood; secondly, to establish what was described as satisfactory
racial balance in each of the five schools within the complex;
and also utilize schools that were close enough to each other
geographically so that transportation would not have to be
provided to students attending those schools.
Q To your knowledge, would this involve any substantia
additional expenditures of money by the District?
A I believe the figures are contained in Mr. Parsons'
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report and involved primarily a remodeling of Lee School,
which was to serve as the complex center, so to speak.
THE COURT: What do you mean by "complex center"?
THE WITNESS: As I understand the concept, the
superintendent was recommending that four schools, with the
exception of Lee, actually provide the actual classroom space
for most students, and that Lee be the headquarters for the
administrative staff of the total complex, and also special
education areas — remedial reading, speach therapy and things
of this kind.
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q All existing facilities would have been utilized,
none would have been abandoned, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Mr. Drummond, was any consideration given, to your
knowledge, of implementing the Beta Complex at the time sub
sequent to the recess of this hearing in August and prior to
the adoption of the present plan?
A There was no consideration given to it by the Board,
as such. As I recall, I believe Mr. Parsons and I may have
talked about it on one occasion — he drives me home frequentl/
from Board meetings, because I don’t have any — my own car.
I think we talked about it in the car one night, and I suggeste
the possibility of including the Beta Complex in any plan
because of the minimal cost, in effect, but I also coupled my
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statement with the thought that I felt certain the Board would
not approve that. I think that's as much consideration as was
ever given to it, as far as I know.
Q And it was not, as I understand it, formally or
seriously considered between the time this hearing was recessed
in August and this date, is that correct?
A To my knowledge, it hasn't been.
Q In your own individual judgment, is the Beta Complex
plan still a feasible plan for further implementation of
desegregation within the district?
A It is.
Q Mr. Drummond, before I conclude, let me ask you if
you know about the financial condition of the Little Rock
School District, generally?
A I'm supposed to. I don't have any figures with me.
Q Well, do you know whether or not the School District
has any surplus funds at this time?
A There are no surplus funds whatsoever in ouroperatirj
budget. There are some funds in what we refer to as our bond
account. What the amount of those funds would be at the preser
time, someone else would have to give you the figures.
q For what purposes may these surplus funds in your
bond account be used?
A These are used for capital improvement which we
undertake almost monthly. For example, we contracted for roof
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repairs and library, and these are matters that, as I say,
come up at almost every meeting, where we award contracts and
by and large the money for payment of these obligations come
from our bond account.
Q All right. With regard to your operating account
funds, do you know, since you have been on the Board, whether
or not the School District hashad a surplus or unexpended
balance, based on its annual budget at the end of each fiscal
year?
A We have the budget which we approve which always
provides for a contingency. This contingency has generally
run roughly $350,000.00 annually, but at this particular time,
we have a budget adopted which provides for a contingency of
approximately $40,000.00, and this is due to the fact that
in effect we are living off last year's income and don’t have
enough coming in this year to maintain this contingency at
its usual level.
Q With the exception of this year, do you have an
idea, in round figures, what the operating fund surplus has
been at the end of the previous fiscal period?
THE COURT: There is a difference between the word
"surplus” and the word "contingency" fund.
MR. ROTENBERRY: As I understand it, there is a
budget contingency fund.
THE COURT: And you hope you don’t use all the mone}
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Sometimes you do.
BY HR. ROTENBERRY:
Q What was the amount of the unexpended contingency
fund, if you know, Mr. Drummond, from the last fiscal period?
A I do not know.
Q Was there one, to your knowledge?
A There was.
Q Do you expect there to be one at the end of this
current fiscal period?
A I hope there will be.
Q Do you know the present status of the bonded indebt
edness of the District?
A Mr. Rotenberry, I am sorry, I do not have that figure
Q All right. Do you have knowledge of at what future
times certain of the bonded indebtedness of the School District
will pay out?
A The only one with which I am familiar is one which
will expire in the very near future which will, in effect,
provide us with one and one half mills additional, which is
not obligated to any particular bond issue.
Q All right. Can you convert this one and one half
mills into dollars and cents annually at the time this becomes
available?
A We can convert it, provided that the present rate
of millage is approved by the voters of this District in
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March of 1969.
Q I understand that, but could you state for the
record, assuming that would happen, what would this give the
School District in terms of dollars and cents annually in
terms of mills?
A As I recall, one mill would support a bond issue of
roughly $1,600,000.00. Therefore, one and a half mills, I
assume, would be $2,400,000.00.
Q And did you state exactly when this additional
millage will become available to the District?
A It will become available to the District in March,
1969, if the voters approve the present rate of millage for
the District, which is 47 mills.
Q I understand.
THE COURT: Is that restricted to capital construct!
THE WITNESS: You will have to ask Mr. Friday.
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q Do you know what the present maximum millage of the
School District is?
A I'm not sure I understand the question. We have a
rate of millage.
Q All right, the rate.
A 47 mills.
Q Now, is it your understanding that at the present
time that's as high as the School District can go in terms of
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A This is the millage rate that was approved by the
voters, Hr. Rotenberry, and that's all we've got.
Q It is possible, is it not, that the voters could
approve a higher rate of millage?
A Yes, sir. I'd very seriously suggest that we raise
it to — that we raise it fourteen mills for the next year.
I doubt the community would buy that, but I think we need it.
MR. ROTENBERRY: That's all, Your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr. Drummond, this is a matter of probably no
significance. If Mr. Jenkins says he lives in Parkview rather
than Hall, you will accept that, of course.
A I think so. I thought Mr. Jenkins said he lived in
the Kingwood area. He may have moved. I don’t know.
Q He gave me a note that says he lives in Parkview.
As I say, it's a matter of no importance, but for the record,
put Mr. Jenkins in Parkview rather than Hall.
Mr. Drummond, on the last matter of finances, you
covered the point of contingency being dangerously low, but
the millage you’re talking about, you are aware that millage,
even though voted for debt services, that portion over and
above actual principal and interest requirements, is currently
being used for operation?
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using this millage? Is that right?
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A That's correct.
Q So ary of this millage that is there, a good portion
of it right now, is in the operating fund.
A That is right.
Q Right.
You wholeheartedly supported the Parsons Plan, didn't
you, Mr. Drummond?
A Yes, sir.
Q The Board of the Little Rock School District endorse
— approved the Parsons Plan as submitted, did they not?
A Yes, sir.
Q The evidence has already covered the results and we
won't go into that.
Now, to clear the record — and I'm not clear either
— your motion on November 15th was to approve a proposal that
had been made on October 10th?
A Yes, sir.
Q That was your motion.
Now, do you know the exact differences, for the
record, Mr. Drummond, between the proposal that you moved to
approve and the proposal which is set forth on Defendant's
Exhibit 22?
A Mr. Friday, all I could do — I do not know which
streets are involved — I could —
Q Why don't you go ahead. I think that will be good
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e n o u g h , s o t h e C o u r t c a n s e e t h e e x a c t d i f f e r e n c e s , if y o u
c a n .
A T h e H a l l H i g h a t t e n d a n c e z o n e , as 3 h o w n o n D e f e n d a n t '
E x h i b i t 2, w o u l d n o t h a v e i n c l u d e d t h e B r i a r w o o d a r e a b o u n d e d
o n t h e n o r t h b y M a r k h a m S t r e e t , o n t h e w e s t b y R o d n e y P a r a h a m ,
o n t h e s o u t h b y 1 2 t h , a n d o n t h e e a s t b y U n i v e r s i t y .
T h e H a l l H i g h a t t e n d a n c e z o n e , u n d e r t h e O c t o b e r lOtr
p r o p o s a l , w o u l d h a v e e x t e n d e d s o u t h o n U n i v e r s i t y —
Q L e t m e j u s t g e t r i g h t h e r e .
M R . F R I D A Y : Y o u r H o n o r , t o c l a r i f y , if t h e C o u r t
w o u l d p e r m i t m e , l e t M r . P a r s o n s s t e p u p a m o m e n t . T h e r e is
n o m a p i n e v i d e n c e , b u t M r . R o b e r t s c a n p r o b a b l y d o it b e t t e r
t h a n I. O r M r . P a r s o n s .
Y o u c o m e u p a n d w e w i l l j u s t g e t it i n t h e r e c o r d
r i g h t n o w .
M R . P A R S O N S : I d o h a v e i n m y p o s s e s s i o n — t h i s
h a s n ’t b e e n i n t r o d u c e d , I s u p p o s e — t h e m a p t h a t w a s p r e p a r e d
f o r t h e O c t o b e r 1 0 t h m e e t i n g .
M R . F R I D A Y : T a k e t h i s m a p —
T H E C O U R T : A l t h o u g h t h i s is a l i t t l e i r r e g u l a r , I
t h i n k it w i l l c o n t r i b u t e t o t h e r e c o r d .
B Y M R . F R I D A Y :
Q M r . D r u m m o n d , I h a v e h a n d e d y o u a m a p — l e t m e mar!1
i t u p a t t h e t o p D e f e n d a n t ' s E x h i b i t
M R . W A L K E R : Y o u r H o n o r , b e f o r e p r o c e e d i n g , w e h a v e
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648
asked the defendants to provide us a copy of that document,
if such a document existed, and were advised that such a copy
did not exist, that no plan was presented at the meeting, that
it was just in the nature of notes.
THE COURT: I don't know that it was a plan. I don’t
know.
THE WITNESS: If I have created that impression, I
will try to make it clear. In my statement, which I believe
is a part of the record, this was nothing more than a suggest!;
or recommendation of the Superintendent submitted to the Board
for discussion, and it was never a plan, as such, which was
adopted by the Board. This was a proposal, if I may put it
that way.
BY HR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr. Drummond, for the record, you just referred to
the October 10th proposal —
MR. WALKER: I would like to state a further ground
for objection. According to Mr. Drummond's testimony, he never
saw any plan before he went to the Board meeting on October 10
THE COURT: I'm sure a number of maps were drawn
by the staff.
MR. WALKER: I am just stating we haven't had an
opportunity to review —
THE COURT: I see no possible prejudice in it, Mr.
Walker.
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MR. WALKER: We are in no position to examine Mr.
Drummond or Mr. Parsons either, for that matter.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, all I want to do is get the
record clear. We can do it by testimony or Mr. Parsons has a
map. It's immaterial to me.
THE COURT: What’s the exhibit number?
MR. FRIDAY: We offer this as Defendant's Exhibit
Number 28, Your Honor.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(The map heretofore referred to
was marked Defendant's Exhibit
No. 28, for identification, and
was received in evidence.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Do you want to look at it Mr. Drummond?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell now by looking at it — go ahead with
your testimony, and referring to the two maps, point out for
the record the differences between the two. You have already
covered Briar-wood.
A Briarwood, and what would actually be the University
Park Urban Renewal area north of 12th Street, which is include
in the plan reflected on Defendant's Exhibit No. 22.
Q Included in Hall?
A Yes, in the Hall High attendance area.
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Q All right.
A The plan — the proposal reflected in Defendant’s
Exhibit No. 28 would have utilized a different boundary around
the Hall High attendance area, and I think the best way to
describe this would be proceeding from the west, the Hall High
attendance zone would have started at the Arkansas River just
east of Robinwood and proceeded south to Reservoir Road to
Rodney Parham, down Rodney Parham to Markham Street, and then
east on Markham to what is referred to as Arthur Street, and
then I believe that would just about sever the Mall Shopping
Center and proceed south through Mall Shopping Center and Sear;
Roebuck, and so forth, down to 20th Street, which would indue
in effect, all the business establishments on the west side of
University but probably no residences. Then east on 20th to
Brown Street, north on Brown to Lee Avenue — pardon me, that'
Lee School, north on Brown to 12th Street, west on 12th to
Madison, which is the War Memorial Park area, and then roughly
north up Spruce Street and through North Lookout and on to the
river.
Q Mr. Drummond — and I will hand the map to Your
Honor, if Your Honor wants to see it — what it really changes
if north is this way, in the southeast area of the Hall High
zone, as it’s set forth on number 22 , 2 8 would have extended
it further southeast toward Central High School?
A That’s correct.
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Q - And picked up in the Stephens area about eighty
Negro students who have been placed in the Hall High zone, is
that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Are there any other differences between the two?
A The only other differences between the two would
relate to the elementary schools, and I'm not familiar with
the particular changes involved there. I believe Mr. Parsons
mentioned one or two yesterday. I do not have and don’t recall
having seen a map of the elementary attendance areas, which
v;ere proposed on October 10th.
Q Well, there also was a difference between the Centre 1
and Mann Districts. Actually, Mr. Drummond, do you know what
that difference was?
A I’d have to look at the two maps, Mr. Friday.
Q All right, take a look at those.
A Yes, Defendant’s Exhibit 22, the present plan,
apparently extends the Central High zone not quite so far to
the east. The railroad on there is not on this one.
Q Well, I think really when you say "not quite so far
to the east" , that means the Mann zone is extended farther
I
west toward Central High, is this correct, now?
A On Defendant's Exhibit 22, the Mann zone extends
further west, yes sir.
Q Toward Central High?
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A Yes, sir.
Q Any others?
A I'm not aware of any others.
Q Mr. Drummond, are you aware of any other available
feasible alternative to the Board for 1969-70 other than a
zoning plan, either as embodied in the Defendant's Exhibit 22
or 28, or with some line adjustments? Do you understand what
I'm asking?
A I understand your question, Mr. Friday. I personally
feel that the Beta Complex could be included in this plan
feasibly.
Q Aside from that, are you aware of any other feasible
alternative?
A No, I am not, because anything else would involve
transportation.
MR. FRIDAY: That's all I have, Your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q Mr. Drummond, when we talk about available feasible
alternatives, when we talk about feasible, why do you not
believe that any plan which would involve transportation is
not feasible?
A At the present time it's not feasible because of
lack of funds.
Would transportation be one of the few ways by whic?
----
Q
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m
to achieve desirable racial balance or substantial integration
of pupils within the District?
A Yes, sir.
Q In your judgment, do you believe that any plan could
be devised which the voters would approve which would bring
about the substantial integration or desirable racial balance?
A This is speculation, Mr. Rotenberry.
Q I understand.
A The voters in this particular school district seem
willing to approve about anything when things get to bad that
they can’t stand it any more, but that's not the situation
right now.
Q So your best judgment about the attitude of the
voters, in answer to that question —
THE COURT: Are you talking about money, increased
money?
MR. ROTENBERRY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: You used the term "increased integration"
That’s something different.
MR. ROTENBERRY: Your Honor, as I understand Mr.
Drummond’s testimony, any plan which would achieve a desirable
degree of racial balance or substantial integration of pupils
would involve additional expenditures.
THE COURT: For transportation.
MR. ROTENBERRY: For transportation or for some
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other purpose.
THE WITNESS: You added the word "feasible", too,
which to me was the crucial word in the question.
BY HR. ROTENBERRY:
Q What do you understand the word "feasible" to be,
as it qualifies a plan?
A A plan that is capable of being implemented.
Q And that requires money, does it not?
A It does.
Q So when we talk about feasibility, we are talking
about the economic capacity of the district to implement some
plan?
A Yes, sir.
Q And in turn, we are talking about the willingness
of the voters to vote money for the District.
A If more money is required, we must have voter
approval, yes sir.
Q Then does the implementation of a plan designed to
achieve racial balance or eliminate racially identifiable
schools depend upon the electorate?
A Well, are you talking about a feasible plan again?
Q Yes.
A Yes, sir.
HR. ROTENBERRY: I believe that's all.
HR. FRIDAY: Ho further questions.
U J Y
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MR. KAPLAN:
Thereupon,
(V/itness excused.)
Dr. Dodson, Your Honor.
--------------------------
DAN W. DODSON
having been called as a witness by counsel for plaintiffs, and
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Dr. Dodson, would you state your name, address and
present occupation?
I
A My name is Dan W. Dodson. I live at U Washington
Square Village, New York City.
Q And your present occupation?
A I am Professor of Education, Director of the Center
for Human Relations and Community Studies, and Chairman of
the Department of Education, Sociology and Anthropology of
the School of Education at Hew York University.
Q And how long have you held your position as
Professor of Education at New York University?
A Since 1951.
Q How long have you held your chairmanship of the
Center?
A
Q
Since 1957.
Dr. Dodson, would you state for us, please, your
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656
educational background?
A My high school education was Mt. Vernon High School
in Mt. Vernon, Texas, my BA Degree was McMurry College, Abilen
Texas. My Master’s is Southern Methodist University. My Ph.D.
is New York University.
Q Do you hold any other honorary degrees?
A I have one honorary degree, Doctor of Literature, I
guess it is, McMurry College.
Q Have you given any other lecture series or been a
visiting professor at any other places except New York Univer
sity?
A I was an instructor in Social Science at McMurry.
This was after I finished there. I was a lecturer at S.M.U.
Otherwise, I have had no other instructional posts. For four
and a half years, 1544 to 19H8, I was Executive Director of
the Mayor’s Committee on Unity of New York City.
Q Dr. Dodson, have you been involved in the training
of other doctoral candidates?
A Yes, sir.
Q In what capacity?
A Both as chairman of the doctoral committees in
graduate work and members of the sponsoring committees.
Q Approximately how many — go ahead.
A I have chaired the doctoral committees of now 85
Ph.D. candidates.
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Q , Dr. Dodson, have you served as an advisor or in any
other capacity to various school boards?
A Yes.
Q Could you tell us which school boards and in what
capacity you have served with those school boards?
A I served with the Washington, D.C., School Board,
195 3-514, in the desegregation of their schools. I lead a study
team and designed a plan for desegregation of the New Rochelle
School System — the date I've forgotten — the early sixties.
I served as a consultant in a study of the Englewood, New
Jersey, School System in the desegregation of that system. I
did a study of the Orange, New Jersey, School System as a
basis for the NAACP's suit against that district. I did a
study of the Mt. Vernon, New York, School System and proposed
a desegregation plan which the Commissioner has now ordered
them to put into effect.
Q This was the Commissioner of Education?
A The State Commissioner of Education, and I served
as a consultant on several occasions to the New York City
School System. I am now working with the White Plains School
System on their high school unrest problem, and I have just
completed a study of desegregation programs or processes in
ten communities of New York State for the State Department
of Education.
Q Are you the same Dr. Dan W. Dodson referred «.o in
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the Second Circuit Court of Appeals case involving New Roche11
as a specialist in the field of education and human relations?
A Yes.
Q Dr. Dodson, are you familiar with the development of
the neighborhood school concept?
A Fairly familiar with it.
Q Would you describe for us, trace the initial develop
ment, or origins and present status of that system as a conceplt
A The neighborhood school concept primarily is borrowe
from the concept of the community school or the common school.
It never had an integrity in the educational literature until
around 1920 when Clarence Perry, a community planner, developed
the concept of the neighborhood and the notion that the neighto
hood being built around the school, with the idea that it woul
be within walking distance for children, the highway arteries
would be built around it so there would be no traffic through
it. There*d be a little court somewhere around it with a
flagpole where they could have Fourth of July ceremonies, and
so on.
This was the concept of little neighborhood en claves
that gave essential integrity to the concept as part of educa
tional thinking.
Q Do you understand that to be also the present concej
and present thinking as involved with that concept?
A I would not say so.
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659
Q What do you understand the present concept to be?
A By and large, the neighborhood school has become a
place where people who are more privileged try to hide from
the encounter with others, and it's been made sacred in recent
thinking about in proportion as Negroes get close to it. It
has become an exclusive device, that is the opposite of the
concept of the community school.
The concept of the community school or the common
school was that it brought all of the children of the school
to a common encounter. This has exactly the opposite meaning.
Q Does it have any status or validity by itself a3
an educational concept?
A Well, you will find a great amount of disagreement
as to its validity. I believe that the studies that I know
would make it very hard to defend it in terms of its achieving
a greater educational preformance of children or this kind of
thing. It’8 much more a matter of convenience.
Q Dr. Dodson, could you give us your definition of
education?
A Well, I think you’d perceive education in terras of
the total growth and development of the child, which could
include the total life space in which he operates and the
influences in that that work on him. The school would be oaly
a part of it, a formal part of it, and this would imply
utilization of whatever resources, knowledge, insight we have
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to help him grow to his maximum potential.
Q That is within the educational process itself within
the school?
A That's right.
Q Would you refer to the map, Defendant's Exhibit 22,
where there are four high schools located? Have you had a
chance to have observation of that map before your appearance
here in the courtroom this morning?
A Yes.
Q Would you describe the high schools on that map as
neighborhood schools?
A I would not.
Q Would you describe any high school in a community
or series of high schools as neighborhood schools?
A No.
Q How would you describe them?
A Fundamentally they are — well, ordinarily, I would
say they are organizations of lar„er complexes of the communil
larger segments of the community that are organized for conver
ience in traffic or for whatever reasons they are organized,
but fundamentally, the facility of administration, presently,
a place that is convenient for people to get to and out of,
and so on, as possible with an education program.
Q Dr. Dodson, do you have any familiarity at all with
the Little Rock School System and particularly the Little Roc)
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TCI
High School, now Central High School, before 1957?
A Well, I heard of it and knew it by reputation a
long time before the 1956 or'57 incident, whatever it was.
Q What was that reputation?
A It had a very high reputation, nationally known, I
think.
Q And that was the only high school in Little Rock
prior to 1957. Would you identify that as the community type
of school?
A It served the whole community or the large segment
of the community, although as a segregated one at the time. It
served the whole white community.
Q And that was the community concept?
A Yes, it brought the poor and rich together, and so
on, in a common encounter.
Q What do you mean by this "encounter" experience?
A I mean the bringing people into relationship with
each other with sufficient degree of significance that they
must interact and develop a sense of their identity worth
in relation to each other that is not established in some
patterns in which one does not validate self-hood against
other people.
Q Is this a proper function for the public schools to
serve?
A I think it's fundamentally the basic job that I
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think the schools have to perform, one of the basic. I wouldn't
make it the only one.
Q Dr. Dodson, let's speak for a moment of the actual
academic achievement of students. Are you aware of the measures
or the measuring devices that are used to measure the actual
performance of students in a given educational system?
A Yes.
Q And what, basically, are those?
A The achievement measures ordinarily used are reading
achievement and math achievement, although there are •'thers,
the Iowa tests and many other tests of other kinds of skills,
but when we're talking about achievement, usually we're talking
about — well, it could be achievement in any field, but the
basic ones that have been used in dealing with this general
problem are reading and math.
Q And do these generally measure a given student's
performance against the grade level at which he should be
expected at his physical age to perform?
A An individual child's performance is measured against
norms that have been established on wider populations, and thes
are geared by the grade level they are in school, for the most
part, and even down to the month.
Q And we would then have average grade level achievemei
for sixth grade students who are perhaps eleven years and ten
months, is that correct?
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------------------ inn—
A Yes, a grade level achievement for the sixth grade
might he for a whole school or for a whole school system, and
this would be compared against the norms.
Q Are there studies which indicate the average grade
level achievement of both Negroes and white students in
various portions of the United States?
A Yes.
Q And where are those studies found?
A They are found in numbers of places. The most recent
one probably is the Coleman Report of the United States Office
of Education, which attempted to do a national sampling of
children, black and white.
Q Is that also known as the Equal Opportunity in
Education Report?
A That's right.
Q And is it also found in the Racial Isolation Report?
A Yes.
Q Do you have an opinion as to the variables which
go into determining different average grade levels for Negroes
and white children?
A Yes.
Q Let me preface that by asking you your — do the
tests actually show different average grade level achievement:
for the large overall groups of Negroes and whites?
A Yes.
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664
Q And what arc the differences?
A There are significant differences in favor of tne
white children.
Q Do you have an opinion as to some of the reasons
for those differences?
A Yes, and they are many, of course, and part is the
socio-economic difference which occasioned by the fact that
economic status has precluded some from participating full-
stream in educational opportunities. Some of it is racial, not
because there is a difference of racial capacity of children,
but because racialism, as it is, has produced scars and self
hood of minority children that have not been overcome. In part
it is because educational systems have not learned how to clos
the gap between children of — the whole system does not expec
of the minority child what it expects of the others. They fail
miserably in this.
Part of it is the whole issue of testing itself,
that minority children tend to -- at least, some studies have
shown — Irving Katz's studies particularly have shown that
even college youngsters, Negro children ''A” and "B" forms of
the same test, when they are told in one test they are being
tested against the Negro population score higher than when
they are told they are in competition with the whites. They
tend to withdraw in the test in which they think, tiiey are in
competition with the whites. They tend to witndraw, a;.d the
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------------------ pro
test has become a considerable instrument of discrimination
in this day and age of assignment of children.
Q Does the Coleman Report and the Racial Isolation
Report show the testing experience with Negroes who have been
placed in an integrated atmosphere?
A Yes.
Q Does it also show testing experiences with whites
who have been placed in an integrated atmosphere —
A Yes.
q — who began from a position of higher grade level
achievement?
A Right.
Q And what does it show as to those two routes?
A It showes that the Negro youngsters who have been --
who have done best were those who have been in an integrated
situation and it shows the white kids have not fallen behind
because of the interracial experience.IQ Have some studies shown in isolated instances that
some Negro children have suffered, perhaps, some trauma from
the introduction to a desegregated system?
A I know of no such data.
Q Would you say that it is the responsibility of an
educational system to educate all of the pupils m the system
in an equal fashion?
A Well, there are individual differences among childr*.
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666
but thesq are not racial differences. They should educate
them all in proportion to — it should do its be3t to get out
of every child the maximum potential he has, and this is an
obligation to all cnildren.
Q From your observations and your consulting services
and your knowledge of education, would you say that it possible
to have an equal educational system under either de jure or
de facto segregation without expensive compensatory educational,
devices?
A I think it’s impossible under either circumstance,
with or without compensatory education.
Q Now, you spoke before of the self-concept of the
Negro child. Is that self-concept affected by his presence in
an all-Negro or overwhelmingly Negro school?
A Yes.
Q In what ways?
i
A The sense of rejection, the sense of being set apart
creates lowered aspirations, lowered sense of worth, and
reflects itself in his whole approach, his whole motivation to
achieve, identify with main-stream America, and to aspire to
the awards and goals of the society.
Q Dr. Dodson, let's assume for the moment that the
Negro students in the overwhelmingly or all-Negro school are
confronted with a situation of an integrated faculty where
there is one or two or a totally integrated faculty. Would
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that change the factors or problems you have elaborated about?
A Other things equal, it will make a contribution, I
think, to improving tne 3ense of value, and so on, but I'd havk
to be careful about the other tilings being equal.
Q Well, would you elaborate? Wnat do you mean by
"other things being equal"?
A If a white teacner is assigned there simply because
_ and it's thought of as the Siberia of the scnool system,
or is assigned there because sne has no other choice, her
performance could be worse than if you didn't have a white
teacher there. But Negro children need white teachers as role
models, just the same as they need Negro teachers, and vice
versa, but in part, it depends on how they got there and why
they are there. It would have to be seen in that context.
Q Do you have an opinion, based on your experience,
as to whether there can be effective or meaningful integration
without effective or meaningful student body integration?
A No sir, I don't think there can be.
Q You don't think —
A Faculty integration without scnool integration.
Q Why is that?
A Because when you rely on the neighborhood schools,
no two are exactly equal. One has higher status than the othe
and the children perform in these schools about in the same
proportion as the community has expectations for them.
------------------------------------------------------------6 6 7 — r
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L U
Q la that substantiated by test data?
A You might as well ask a man in the street to rate
the schools as to their status and to look at academic achieve
ment of the children, so nearly does the performance of childre
measure up to the expectations of the community. Consequently,
if you expect a lot out of one school, teachers feel they are
fortunate if they are assigned there. Others feel they are
less fortunate when they are assigned to other places and
expect less out of the children in those places because the
community expects less out of them. Consequently, the assign
ment of teachers, without erasing this stigma of the difference
of the schools by making them community schools, does not
correct the problem of leading children imaginatively in an
educational experience.
Q Would you say tnat Mr. Stiaibert's testimony concernir
the experience of the Indianapolis School System with regard
to faculty integration is reflective of the problem you have
just mentioned?
A Exactly. The Hunter College trained a hundred teacher
in New York City specifically to work in the low income areas,
and forty of them resigned their assignments when they found
out that was where they were going. The teacher does not feel
she is well treated if she is assigned to those places as the
others.
Q Are there places wnere this hasn't been so, where yc
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h a v e n o t h a d t h e r e s i g n a t i o n e x p e r i e n c e a n d y o u h a v e n o t h a d
t e a c h e r d i s a p p r o v a l w h e r e t h e y h a v e b e e n t r u l y i n t e g r a t e d a n d
m e a n i n g f u l l y i n t e g r a t e d s c h o o l s ?
A Y e s .
Q A n d w h e r e a r e t h o s e p l a c e s ?
A W h i t e P l a i n s S c h o o l S y s t e m c l o s e d t h e i r N e g r o s c h o o l *
s e n t t h e c n i l d r e n b y b u s p a s s e d t h e — f r o m th e p u b l i c h o u s i n g
p r o j e c t p a s s e d t h e d e s e g r e g a t e d s c h o o l s a r o u n d t h e e d g e s o f
t n e N e g r o c o m m u n i t y a n d o u t i n t o a l l - w h i t e $ 4 0 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 a y e a r
r e s i d e n c e s , a n d d e s e g r e g a t e d t h e w h o l e s c h o o l s y s t e m i n p r o
p o r t i o n s f r o m t e n t o t h i r t y p e r c e n t , so t h a t n o s c h o o l — o u r
s c h o o l a n d t h e o t h e r s w e r e t h e i r s c h o o l s , t h e s e p r o p r i e t a r y
d i s t i n c t i o n s , w i t h t h e r e s u l t t h a t y o u d o n ' t h a v e t h i s p r o b l e m ,
Q D o c t o r , a s s u m e f o r t h e m o m e n t t h a t o n e p o r t i o n o f
t h e c o m m u n i t y s c h o o l s a r e l o c a t e d in an u p p e r e c o n o m i c g r o u p i n g
o f r e s i d e n c e s w h e r e t h e a v e r a g e m e d i a n i n c o m e is s i g n i f i c a n t l y
h i g h e r t h a n t h e r e s t o f t h e c i t y , a n d t h o s e p u p i l s h a v e s u b
s t a n t i a l l y n o i n t e g r a t i o n , e i t h e r a l l - w h i t e s c h o o l s , o r
v i r t u a l l y a l l - w h i t e s c h o o l s a n d o t h e r p o r t i o n s o f t h e c o m m u n i t y
a r e i n t e g r a t e d . C a n t h e r e e v e r b e a m e a n i n g f u l i n t e g r a t i o n o r
l a s t i n g i n t e g r a t i o n in t h a t c o m m u n i t y ?
A N o t i n m y j u d g m e n t .
Q W h y n o t ?
A A s l o n g as s o m e o f t h e s e s c h o o l s a r e " o u r s " a n d 3 o m e
o f t h e o t h e r s a r e " t h e i r s 1' a n d t h e n in b e t w e e n s o m e w h i t e s a r e
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looking tit some people who are more privileged than they are
and tne status is in the scnools in which there are no mixtures
then you are going to have the acceleration of the tendency to
escape the mixing and to try to move into the kind of situation
where the people feel they are more fortunate with the schools
that are not desegregated. Consequently, it accelerates the
whole process of separation, residentally and otherwise.
Q You found this acceleration feature present in other
school systems you have studied or been associated wi. 7
A Yes.
Q I'm thinking particularly of New Rochelle. What was
your experience there?
A New Rochelle had an all-Negro school with two neightc
hood schools adjoining it. One was 48 per cent Negro and the
other 42 per cent. They were at this mythical tipping point
situation. They closed the Negro school and redistributed those
school children by bus throughout the rest of the community.
The Washington School, which was 48 per cent Negro,
declined to about 45 per cent. The Mayflower School, which was
the 42 per cent, is now 44 per cent. It's increased only two
per cent over eight years of time, and you have had a stable
neighborhood situation. Once you took the load off of these
next four neighborhood schools that were in the wake of the
movement population, Negro population movement, and distributee
them to the rest of the city, then there was no problem about
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attending a desegregated school, and you have been able tot
keep schools that would have tipped, in my judgment, within
three or four years, you've kept them integrated schools and
stable schools for eight or nine years.
Q When you say "tipped", do you mean they would have
become all-Negro?
A That's right.
Q Are you familiar with other systems where that has
also been true?
A I'd say the reverse is Cnester, Pennsylvania, where
I've been working with the State Commission on Human Rights,
where they fought for the neighborhood school, tooth and toe
nail, up to about four years ago when the Commission required
them to desegregate, and each of the neighborhood schools fell
in the wake of these patterns. How, the Negroes constitute
only twenty per cent of the entire city's population and public
schools are seventy per cent Negro. The neighborhood school
fell by the wayside as an instrument to try to deal with this
problem.
Q Do you know of any studies which have been done which
concluded the average grade level of whites placed in an
integrated atmosphere for tne first time decline or ouff-r in
any way?
A I know of no such data. The White Plains elementary
division, desegregated in three years time, brougnt tne
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achievement levels of the Wegro, public housing, lowest income
population of the area up to national norms in reading and
did it without any penalty, their data showed, to the wnite kids
Q Did tnat data chow it was without penalty, also,
compared to children studying in all-white situations?
A They had no all-white situation. Tney were comparing
them to the national norms and tue previous performance of the
children, but they had no all-white population to compare.
Q Does it make a difference whether tne individual
class or the whole school is in an integrated atmosphere?
A I’m not sure I understand the import of your question
Q Is there a concept which comes out of the Racial
Isolation Report that the school's racial and economic com
position has some determining factor to the performance of
the students in that school?
A That’s what I was referring to about the community's
expectations of the schools and their performance.
Q And what do those tests show as to the schools which
have primarily a middle-class orientation?
A That children assigned to them from lower income
groups, where they have the role models ahead of them, who
are academically facile, tend to achieve better and catch on
to the climate of the school and its operation rather tnan
remain in the present pattern.
Dr. Dodson, is there any reason to believe that,Q
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given a truly integrated system with a significant balance
between the races, that Negroes and whites will not acnieve
within the same rages of achievement?
A There may be -- there will be some differences as
long as the socio-economic factors exist ana until we find
ways of educating differently, I think, but there's no reason
why there should not be substantial progress made to bring
the Negro kids to the level of the white children in such
patterns.
Q And in your White Plains experience, did you find
that the Negro students did basically acnieve within the same
ranges of grade level achievement as did the whites?
A Well, not quite because they started so far behind
but they are up to national norms. Many of the kids — the
white children iix the White Plains School would be above norms
in reading or math, considerably above norms. But the Negro
children caught in the encounter with tnem, or the other way
around, they closed the gap. These were children who were
traditionally behind norms in reading and so on, and they
closed the gap in three years time.
Q Given a city where the living patterns in neighborho
exist on racially isolated or segregated bases and where schoo
construction policies are designed to perpetuate segregation
in the schools and are built on strictly a neighborhood basis,
can a plan — is it ever possible to devise a plan which
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utilizes the neighborhood school 3ysteia which will ever
*
achieve any more than token desegregation?
A Well, I think if you are planning for a school
system that is segregated -- that is, a neighborhood school
arrangement it is next to impossible then to plan at the
same time for a desegregated school system unless you're going
to use extraordinary measures of dealing with it.
Q You have been involved in school systems where
alternatives to the strict application of the neighborhood
school systems have been involved in attempts to desegregate?
A Yes.
Q What are some of the devises and the methods used?
A The Englewood School System closed their sixth —
closed their all-Negro school, and created in its place a
community-wide sixth grade school in the place of this, and
then took the space that was available in the other buildings
to take care of the Negro children who were displaced. Three
years later, another school was becoming imbalanced. They
closed it, made a community-wide fifth grade school. Greenberg
8 in Westchester started with one elementary school serving
the whole community. When it got large — and it's 30 or 35
Negro -- when they got large enough, they needed two elementar
schools. Instead of making one of them serve the Negro comm uni.
and soon tipping, and then having the other one all-white,
sent the first three grades to one of the buildings and the
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they followed the same principal, so the first two years
children go to school -- all children of the community will
go to school together in the same building. They move three
times through their school experience.
The two years, they will walk to school in their
neighborhood, and the other two, they go by bus. These are two
things that come to my mind. I mentioned White Plains in which
they sent them by bus in a kind of operation leap-frog beyond
the desegregated schools to the outlying schools that were
all-white; and in this sense, the neighborhood schools in the
white communities, I suppose, are still neighborhood, but they
are community schools now because they are reflective of the
total population of the community. Each school reflects between
ten and thirty per cent Negro in a community that’s about 2 3
or 24 per cent Negro child population.
Q To your knowledge, has pairing been used as a devicei
A Yes. The Greenberg thing might be thought of as
pairing. This is sometimes called the Princton Plan. It was
used with eight schools in New York City in an attempt of
dealing with the problem of imbalance. It’s usedquite widely.
Q Is the educational park concept also used?
A The park concept has many meanings, and I think you
have to understand what you're talking about. As Max 'Wolfe
originally thought of it, it would be a large education a...
next three grades to the next, and then on the third school,*
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V I w
complex integrating a section of a city that had lost its
identity because of the way in which the city has grown.
As Neal Sullivan has used it in Berkeley, I would
assume he means using the buildings that he’s got as community -
wide schools rather tnan as neighborhood schools 'y and in this
sense, it would be a different concept of park, I would guess.
But the notion is of drawing larger numbers of
children from wider areas. The Orange, New Jersey, planned a
complex that they'd begin building on gradually to go from
pre-school all the way through junior college, all on one
center in the middle of town so a3 to focus the attention of
the people on the town as a community rather than little
neighborhood sorts of situations. I don’t know how far they
have come on that but they committed themselves to it several
years back.
Q You spoke of busing. Do you know of instances where
there are large-scale busing efforts?
A Well, in proportion to the size of the communities,
yes. This would vary. Busing is a common practice in education
in America. California spend3 $90 million dollars a year to
bus 800,000 kids of provincial rural isolated kinds of environ:
into a wider world of reality.
q To your knowledge, do you know of Federal funds
available for the busing of students?
I believe there have been Federal funds madeA
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677
available where there was no notion of experimentation involve
in it. I don't know that they have made funds available simply
to provide busing for desegregation purposes but it's not hard
to develop Kinds of programs. For instance, one thing that
Chester is playing with is what they call magnet schools. That
is a school that would be designed for enough of a special
purpose to attract children from all over town or from all
over an area, and they would put, for instance, mathematics
and science in one junior high school and the other subjects
in the other, and they'd expect that tnis -- they'd bus cnildre
with Federal funds in an experiment of this sort to achieve
desegregation.
Q In other words, although the money may not be
available, per se, for desegregation techniques, it may be
available, is that right?
A I believe where it would require this as a part of
the program.
Q Do you know of any studies which have shown or
discussed the attendance of children who ride buses to school?
A I did a study of the open enrollment program in
New York City where they bused children from overcrowded
intercity minority schools to outlying neighbornood schools
where they had space. I studied six of these, and the data
showed conclusively that the children bused had better
attendance records than the others.
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670
Q ' how about the safety of children in the school buses!
A I'm not positive, but I think the data showed cnildre
are safer in buses than on the street. I believe this is the
data.
Q liave you had an opportunity prior to your testifying
here to study what has become known in this community as the
so-called Parsons Plan?
A Well, I listened to the testimony yesterday afternocr
and I read the testimony from yesterday morning, and I had a
chance to look at it very cursorily.
Q Directing your attention to the high school aspect
of that plan, can you give us an evaluation as to your impres
sions of the high school desegregation aspect of that plan?
A Well, it seems to me that if you had been interested
in desegregation, you would have zoned horizontally — you
would have zoned east and west rather than north and south,
and that it would have made a considerable difference in the
nature of the population of it.
Q In your experience —
A And without any greater amount of inconvenience
apparently than what is there, from what I see of it and know
of it.
q in your experience as an educator, would the creativ
or inovative use of changing attendance zones have any validit
if it does achieve racial balance or signigicant desegregatioi
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679
A - Well, this is one of the ways of achieving it, and
in the New York State Study, I could point to all sorts of
school reorganization, all sorts of changing boundaries, and
so on, practically any of them work and they are proud of
them if the community wants to make them work, and none of thefi
S successful if the community doesn't want to make them work.
This is much more the criteria on it. There is no
magic in any of it. I can show you kindergarten, sixth grade,
three year junior high, three year high school, four year earlK
school, four year middle year, four year high school, two-two-
two elementary grades, three-three, one community-wide school
for a grade. You name it, practically, and I can show you
someplace they are using it and are quite proud of it and it's
working beautifully. The plans need to fit. The plans need to
fit the unique needs of the community, but there is no magic
to any of these. They are instruments to be used in the
community if the community is disposed to use them.
Q In connection with the Parsons Plan, Dr. Dodson,
X draw your attention to the Beta Complex reflected on page —-
THE COURT: Let's take a recess until about eleven
o' clock.
(A short recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Dr. Dodson, I have placed before you the Beta
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bUU
Complex a.'3 reflected in the Parsons Report, and the Parsons
Report indicates they will nave racially homogeneous student
makeup.
THE COURT: Excuse me, what exhibit is that?
HR. KAPLAN; Defendant's Exhioit No. 10, Your honor.
THE COURT; Let me see it and give me the page numbe r.
MR. KAPLAN: Thirty-four, Your Honor.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Now, I direct your attention to the map, Defendant's
Exhibit 22, which reflects the same schools, Franklin, Oakhurst,
Lee, Stephens and Garland, and according to the projections by
the staff of the Little Rock School District, those schools
will have for the 1969-70 — Lee will have seventy Negro and
219 whites —
THE COURT: That's the — that's for the present?
HR. KAPLAN: No, that's the projection for next
year, Your Honor, under this proposal.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Franklin would have 61 Negroes and 526 whitesi Oak
hurst will have 24 Negroes and 330 whites \ Stephens, 313 Negron
and 34 whites, and Garland will have 62 Negroes and 260 whites.
Cô 2.d you give an evaluation of tiie differences Ox
those two plans involving those five schools?
I'm not -- the Beta Complex as against --
The Beta Coraplex on those five schools on a strictlyQ
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to 81
geographical zone basis.
A I would say the Beta Complex notion would be a
rather imaginative approach to dealing with the problem as I
understand it. Obviously, I hadn't studied it. I'd say the
other is a traditional pattern in which it will be vary
difficult to produce — difficult to provide equality of
educational opportunity in this circumstance.
Q What is the consequence, Dr. bodson, of retaining
in those schools involved in the Beta Complex, according to
the present proposed plan, the existing racial identity of
those schools?
A The racial identity of them gives some of them
superior status to the others, lowers expectations in some
as compared to others, makes it more difficult forteachers
to have the same expectancies of achievement in one as the
others, and as a result of it, the thing creates a situation
in which you have inequality of educational opportunity. I
don't think you can provide it in that circumstance.
Q Is It ever possible to have an integrated system
where the old identifiable racial characteristics of a school,
either the student body or tne faculty or the name are not
changed?
A Well, as long as it is identified as their school,
and the scnools over here are identified as ours, you destroy
the conception of the common school in its traditional me an in-
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082
of providing a common encounter and, of course, Joeing a
community school, with the result that you have these dispariti
that are created by them. /And I think that how far you have to
go with that, whether you have to change the name of the school
and so on, I don’t know, but I think this is the biggest part
of it. The identity has to be that it is a common school, a
community school, that is a part of the totality of the commurJa
and it's not their school as against ours. It’s not thought of
as separate and apart.
Q Dr. Dodson, there was some testimony yesterday con
cerning parental participation, especially in extra curricular
activity in school functions. Do you have an opinion as to the
desirability of that kind of activity?
A Parental participation is wonderful and needful. You
need the support of the community in schools. There are kinds
of problems related to it that you have to take into account.
I testified in the Delaware Case that went into tne
Brown decision, and it was quite clear that the white community
was making the case that inequality did not come out of public
money, that the parents paid this themselves in the white
school, but the iiegro school didn’t have these facilities. I
maintain that because the segregation principle destroyed the
community, the people weren’t working for community schoolsj
they were working for our school, kind of a tribal arrangemenL
of education, ana that you increased inequality of educations]
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633
oppoi’tunity because the system came to rely on these services
p r o v id e d in the communities that can afford it.
This has been one of the biggest problems in parent
associations for a long time. The parents association in Mew
York City kicked the teachers out because they were hatchet
people for the administration, because the administration
manipulated the parents to do these extra services for them.
That's the curtain for the auditorium or the new movie
projector. One principal even got them to provide a congoleum
rug for his office and the wax to wax it with.
The more you rely on these kinds of services in a
community that can afford it, the more you increase the in
equality of education in the community where people do not ha\4e
this capacity for participation or where educators are not
willing to meet parents in open and free encounter, and push
them out and don't allow them to participate.
Q Have you found in your experience in school district
where you have been associated in desegregation processes tuat
parental participation is lost once the community school
concept is re-establisned?
A Ho. Ho, I have seen many wonderful instances where
once you were sharing and your cnildren were sharing with the
other children, that people who nad tne advantages came in as
para-professionals or tutors or helped to do jobs that w»_re
really significant in the scnools.
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In the hew hochelle situation, tney have even moved
to have the parent participation in homes instead of in the
schools and have even increased participation all across tne
community botn in negro and white, because they moved away fron
this principle.
Q A moment ago you spoke of tribalism in connection
with the school in the individual neighborhood. Could you
develop your meaning, or what do you mean by that concept?
A If a neighborhood school becomes a turf on which
you hide from encounter or shield yourself from encroachments
from other groups, then you become preoccupied with the lore
and the culture or the values of that group to t'.e exclusion
of all others; and consequently, you pressure the school to
make differences that are in line with these advantages or
lack of advantages that you have to the point that it becomes
education for special groups rather than education that tran
scends the groups and brings us to a common set of values and
common discipline that a common education is designed to
provide.
Q Can there ever be a true sense of community in the
broad sense of our overall community as long as these tribalioi
features are allowed to maintain their superiority?
A I would submit you cannot teach community in the
average neighborhood school concept because the living arrange
ments out-educates the educators. People learn what they live
084
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and not'what they are taught. I cite ilt. Vernon on this. Mt.
Vernon is 7(3,000 population in four square miles. The New Have
Railroad cuts the city half in two. Below the tracks, it's 75
per cent Negro enrollment. Above the tracks, it's 36 per cent
white. So important is the privilege that is unshared by those
who live on the north side, if they're zoned in the right
elementary schools, that when they list real estate for sale,
they list the name of the elementary school along? the
name of the town and before the address of the property. I
would submit that you can't live in that kind of unshared
privilege in a community without it being morally corrupting
and without out-educating the educator in what he tries to do
in citizenship.
Q Are you aware of techniques that have been employed
by educational systems which have resorted to use of the
machine where it boggles the mind?
THE COURT: I didn't hear that.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Are you aware of school systems which have resorted
to the use of macninery to help devise desegregation plans?
A Yes, Harvard nas been using the computer to help
provide the weights that are assigned to each factor in de
segregation. I think at Evanston, they put this in a compjtcr
and ran it out so that tney were mathematically clear on how
could do the maximum desegregation with the minimum resisi
o US
you
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686
minimum amount of dislocation.
Q In your evaluation of this present plan, as reflected
on Defendant's Exhibit Ido. 22, is this a non-racial system?
A It looks to me as if it's a racist school system.
Q With this kind of a school system, where residence
patterns are largely segregated in the city and the neighborhos
school concept is employed, is it possible in fc'neai’ future
to break out of the segregated patterns of either the residence
or the school?
A In my judgment, if this plan is followed, very rapid
you will freeze in residential segregation to the point that
the west end of town will be white and the east end of town
will be Negro; and the next step on it, if it follows the
history of New York, will be that the blacks in their frus
tration at the inability to get the whites to share community,
will then demand the separation into local control and that
they will want to take over the school system for themselves
and press for apartheid education. This would be my judgment.
Q There is a difference between local control and
de cent rali z at i on ?
A Yes.
Q What is the difference?
A Local control, as used in the present context
decentralization means every effort to try to move the decisxc.
the problem exists and to decentralizemaking closer to where
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the operation. But tends to leave the central administration
with the responsibility of the entire community.
Local control, as it is designed, would be to carve
out autonomous districts and turn them over completely to
local communities, and leave the city with thirty to sixty
autonomous districts, without a system that serves the commu
nity with a system.
Q Is decentralization fully compatible with a totally
desegregated system?
A Yes.
Q Is local control a return to that kind of trii. alisti c
atmosphere you described before?
A Local control, in my judgment, is the modern version
of Plessy versus Ferguson, separate but equal.
THE COURT: Hay I suggest we are going a little far
afield.
BY HR. KAPLAW:
Q Given good faith on the part of the school board and
the community in an effort to desegregate some of the public
schools, what are some of the benefits that both the community
and the educational process itself can expect?
A In the first place, it helps to bring back the
concept of community and the sharing of community. In the
second place, it brings the total community to a responsibili
for the totality of welfare of its children. A community, the
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p o w e r a r r a n g e m e n t o f a c o m m u n i t y , ca n l i v e w i t h it s u n s h a r e d
p o w e r a n d b u i l d r a t i o n a l i z a t i o n s a b o u t it a n d l e a v e t h o s e w n o
ar e p o w e r l e s s to s t e w in t n e i r o w n p r o b l e m s w i t h o u t a g r e a t
a m o u n t o f conscience., if t h e y d o n ' t h a v e to s h a r e c o m m o n
f a c i l i t i e s .
C o n s e q u e n t l y , t h e g r e a t e s t c o n t r i b u t i o n is t o t h i s
s e n s e o f w e l f a r e i n t e r m s o f t h e c o m m u n i t y as a w h o l e . It
e r a s e s t h e n o t i o n o f p r o p r i e t a r y i n t e r e s t o f o n e g r o u p o r
a n o t h e r i n t h e c o m m u n i t y i n s t i t u t i o n s a n d m a k e s t h e m c o m m u n i t y
i n s t i t u t i o n s . It g i v e s a l l t h e f e e l i n g t h a t — it r e l i e v e s
t h e p o s s i b i l i t y t h a t p e o p l e are a l i e n a t e d f r o m t h e m a i n s t r e a m
a s p i r a t i o n s o f s o c i e t y , t h a t t h e y h a v e a p a r t in it a n d c o n
t r i b u t e t o t h e d i r e c t i o n o f t h e i r d e s t i n y i f t h e y ar e o n a
c o m m u n i t y p r o b l e m .
I t h i n k it is i m p o r t a n t in t e r m s o f t h e C o l e m a n
R e p o r t t h a t t h e s e c h i l d r e n w h o s u c c e e d e d w e r e c h i l d r e n w h o
a l s o f e l t t h e y h a d s o m e c o n t r o l o f t h e i r d e s t i n y , t h a t w h a t
t h e y t h o u g h t , a n d s o on , h a d s o m e p o s s i b i l i t y o f b e i n g c o n
s i d e r e d i n d e c i s i o n - m a k i n g .
Q A r e t h e r e t h e n d i s c e r n i b l e c h a n g e s in t h e r o l e t h e
N e g r o s e e s f o r h i m s e l f in t h e s c h o o l i t s e l f , als o ;
A Y e s .
Q Is it i n t e g r a t i o n t o p u t s i x w h i t e s in a c o m m u n i t y
i n t o a h i g h s c h o o l w h e r e t h e r e a r e a p p r o x i m a t e l y o n e t h o u s a n d
b l a c k s t u d e n t s ?
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A ' I t ' s a l i t t l e b a t t e r t h a n E x h i b i t A, bu t n o t m u c h
m o r e .
Q W o u l d t h e s a m e b e t r u e in an e l e m e n t a r y s c h o o l w h e r e
t h i r t y o r f o r t y o r f i f t y w h i t e s ar e p u t i n t o an e l e m e n t a r y
s c h o o l w i t h t h r e e h u n d r e d N e g r o s t u d e n t s ? Is t h a t i n t e g r a t i o n ?
A I w o u l d n o t s a y so. It's b e t t e r t h a n n o t h i n g , b u t
I w o u l d s a y i t ' s n o t .
Q W h a t w o u l d y o u r d e f i n i t i o n of a N e g r o s c h o o l b e ?
A I n m y c o n s u l t a t i o n w i t h P e n n s y l v a n i a Humu.. R e l a t i o n s
C o m m i s s i o n ' s d e s e g r e g a t i o n o f th e s c h o o l s o f t h a t s t a t e , w h i c h
I f o r g o t t o m e n t i o n t h a t I s e r v e d as c o n s u l t a n t to t h e m , w e
d e v e l o p e d a g u i d e l i n e w h i c h s a i d t h a t n o s c h o o l s h o u l d b e m o r e
t h a n t h i r t y p e r c e n t n o r l e s s t h i r t y p e r c e n t a b o v e t h e p e r
c e n t a g e o f t h e m i n o r i t y p o p u l a t i o n of t h e c o m m u n i t y . I n o t h e r
w o r d s , i f a c o m m u n i t y w e r e f o r t y p e r c e n t N e g r o , t h e n n o s c h o d ]
w o u l d b e m o r e t h a n f i f t y t w o p e r c e n t , w h i c h is t h i r t y p e r cen
o f f o r t y , a n d n o n e w o u l d be l e s s t h a n t w e n t y e i g h t p e r c e n t .
X f y o u g e t b e y o n d t h e s e — a n d t h e s e w e r e v e r y a r b i t r a r y
f i g u r e s __ b u t i f y o u get s o m e t h i n g b e y o n d t h e t h i r t y p e r cent
r a n g e , y o u b e g i n t o l o s e t h e c o n c e p t o f t h e c o m m u n i t y o r
c o m m o n s c h o o l , a n d t h e n b e g i n t o h a v e i m b a l a n c e d s c h o o l s .
Q I n t h i s d e t e r m i n a t i o n , d i d y o u m a k e a d e t e r m i n a t i o n
t h i s b a l a n c e h a d t o be s t r u c k on a d a y t o d a y b a s i s ?
A No. No, y o u a l l o w f l e x i b i l i t y w i t h i n t h a t k i n d o f
ot d i f f i c u l t t o k e e p it u n l e s s , o f
6 89
a r r a n g e m e n t a n d i t ' s n
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600
c o u r s e , t h e c o m m u n i t y is u n d e r g o i n g c a t a s t r o p h i c c h a n g e s w h i c h
h a s s l o w e d d o w n o r r e t a r t e d o r i f th e s c h o o l s ar e a l l s e g r e g a t
Q N o w , w e r e y o u p r e s e n t d u r i n g y e s t e r d a y ’s t e s t i m o n y ,
Dr. D o d s o n ?
A Y e s , in t h e a f t e r n o o n .
Q A n d y o u r e a d th e m o r n i n g ’s t e s t i m o n y .
A Y e s .
Q Y o u h e a r d o r r e a d t w o s u p e r i n t e n d e n t s o f s c h o o l
syste.ms s t a t e t h a t p l a n s f o r d e s e g r e g a t i o n a r e a f f e c t e d b y t h e
c o m m u n i t y a c c e p t a n c e f a c t o r .
B a s e d o n y o u r e x p e r i e n c e as a c o n s u l t a n t t o v a r i o u s
s y s t e m s a n d y o u r w o r k w i t h v a r i o u s s y s t e m s in a capacity as
a c o n s u l t a n t , d o y o u h a v e a n y d e v a l u a t i o n of t h i s r e a c t i o n o f
t h e p r o f e s s i o n a l a d m i n i s t r a t o r t o c o m m u n i t y a c c e p t a n c e ?
A I t i s i l l o g i c a l t o e x p e c t t h e s u p e r i n t e n d e n t on h i s
o w n i n i t i a t i v e t o j e o p a r d i z e h i s r e l a t i o n s h i p to h i s c o m m u n i t y
b y g o i n g t o o far. I n t h e d e s e g r e g a t i o n i n s t a n c e s t h a t I k n o w ,
w i t h t h e e x c e p t i o n o f t h e G r e e n b e r g 8 in N e w Y o r k C i t y , the
i m p e t u s f o r c h a n g e h a d t o c o m e f r o m t h e o u t s i d e . It w a s n o t
g e n e r a t e d f r o m t h e i n s i d e .
Q W h a t a g e n c i e s a n d in w h a t w a y s w a s t h a t ?
A T h e C o m m i s s i o n e r o f e d u c a t i o n , t h e C o u r t , t h e
r u l i n g s , t h e c h a n g e s o f law, a n d s o on.
Q Dr. D o d s o n , in c o n n e c t i o n w i t h y o u r f o r m u l a w h i c h
y o u m e n t i o n e d p e r t a i n i n g to t h e P e n n s y l v a n i a S c h o o l s i t u a t i o n ,
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631
can tnat also be a variable concern which is affected by the
grade levels? In other words, if there is a higher percentage
in a certain -- that is zero to six?
A Yes, it could be in proportion in a grade level. It
would be different for each of the grade levels. That is,
different for elementary education or high school education.
If there were different proportions in the mixes of these
different levels of the school.
MR. KAPLAN: That's all.
THE COURT: Mr. Light.
CROSS EXAMINATION
3Y MR. LIGHT:
Q Dr. Dodson, in what field of academic studies are
your degrees awarded?
A English in McMurry College for the baccalaureates,
sociology at SMU for the Master's, educational sociology at
New York University.
q You have no degrees in educational administration?
A No, sir.
Q Have you ever operated a public school system?
A No, 3ir.
Q Has your experience been with public school systems
largely in the capacity of assisting them to bring about a
racial balance in their systems?
A Largely, I would say . I have been involved at many
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692
tother levels but principally ray preoccupation has been with
th is.
Q 13 it a fair summary of what I understand your
testimony to be that in your judgment racial balance, per se,
is a desirable educational feature in the public schools?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you cite the Coleman Report as being in agree
ment with that concept?
A Yes. I cited it as saying that the children in
desegregated schools — that the children who did best in
education came from the desegregated situations.
Q Isn’t it true that the Coleman Report left some
inference originally to the effect that racial balance, per se,
was desirable, and that Mr. Coleman later reputiated that
inference and said that he did not intend anything of the sort?
A I think that’s the reason I was careful to phrase
my statement the way I did. The data on achievement, because
of desegregation, is not that dramatic at the present time, I
think all of us would have to admit, except for the instances
I cite, the White Plains, and a few places like that.
Q Isn't it also true that the Coleman Report stood
solidly for the proposition that compensatory education in
the schools in culturally deprived areas was an essential
solution to this problem?
A I don't think so. I think the Coleman Report sai^
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633
if you hold the other factors constant, the amount you spend
doesn't make much difference.
Q It did not support the concept of the compensatory
education?
A Well, it’s implicit in what it said. It didn't refer
specifically there to compensatory education. One of the
startling factors in it was that if the other factors, the
socio-economic status and family and so on, were held constant
that, except for a few tremendously segregated Negro schools
where they had very little equipment or anything, that most
of this made very little difference.
Q Doctor, there are many school districts in the
country that have no Negro residents, is that correct?
A That's right.
Q I believe there are about 171 of them in Arkansas,
and, of cours, there are many of them in the midwestern portic
of our nation.
Are those white students who attend all-white school
being educationally deprived?
A I think they are.
Q Would you tell me how?
A I think that the Koerner Commission's report was
correct when it said this was a racist society. I don t think
we deal with this meaningfully except when people come into
an encounter meaningfully with different races. I think a
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youngster growing up in a white situation where he never
encounters the differences is under handicap.
Q What is your solution?
A Could I add one tiling? I don't want to take a lot
of time, but a lot of datum on it is that the parochial people
told the church people at Buckhill Falls a year ago last
January that in poll-taking they have done, specifically there
was no difference in the responses of church people and non
church people on the matter that they have posed to them, and
you wonder with all the efforts we have made in the kind of
didactic teaching about citizenship, this divorce from the
i
encounter, why there is no difference. And I think the differe|r
is that you don't have to learn until you are meaningfully
caught in an encounter where you have to learn differently.
Q What is your solution for the educational deprivatioji
for the children up in Worth Dakota that would have to go
five hundred miles to attend school with Negroes?
A Well, I think you would just have to live with it.
I don't have a solution to it. That's one thing I don't have
a solution to, but I would contend that they are under a liandi
69*4
cap,
Q You would be for busing them? Is that right?
A I would be for busing them, if you could do it in
such fashion that it did not overweigh other kinds of values
but, obviously, there are lindts beyond which you can go on
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695
a thing of that kind.
Q Then if 1 understand you correctly, it's your views
that the heavy concentration of any ethraic group in a public
school is bad, not just the concentration of Negroes?
A That1s right.
Q In New Rochelle , at the time you were involved in
their problems in the early 19 60's, did they have a school
that was about 90 per cent Italian?
A Yes. I didn't know it was ninety, but it was very
heavily Italian.
Q Well, the opinion of the Court of Appeals in that
case said it was over 90 per cent Italian.
A Yes.
Q How did you resolve that problem?
A Vie didn't resolve it, and one of the sad things
there and in Mt. Vernon both, is that they allowed these
schools to become neighborhood schools for ethnic element,
a nationality element, and sort of passed over them and let
them run their own problems; and three generations removed,
these kids are still significantly below reading norms for
the rest of the community in both of them.
Q Did they also, in New Rochelle, have a school that
was something in excess of 90 per cent Jewish?
A Yes.
Q And still operating on that basis?
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A Approximately , except they have some Megro children
there now in the desegregation program.
Q Doctor, you indicated that as early a3 1953 and '54,
you served as a consultant to the Washington, D.C. Public
School System. I take it that was about the time the lirown
decision was being published and that school district was
getting ready to undertake desegregation pursuant to that
decision?
A We made the announcement of the plan the Monday
after the Court's decision.
Q Did you stay in consultation with the district is
that was implemented and put into effect?
A Only through the remainder of that year or the
next year, I guess it was.
Q Did you participate in the preparation of the plan
that was adopted?
A Yes.
Q Would you tell the Court briefly about how successfi
that was?
A At that point we were — we were operating on Justic
Harlan's phrase in his dissent in Plessy versus Ferguson -- I
don't know if I can say it correctly — but the colorblind
theory" , that our government should be colorblind in dealing
with people, and we drew attendance boundaries for each schoo.
and assigned children without regard to race, creed or color
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697
to the school nearest to them in proportion of the school
building to hold them.
Q What did you do about the teachers?
A We attempted the same kind of arrangement of teacher
Q Did you have a massive reassignment of teachers?
A Yes.
Q Would you tell the Court what the result is in terms
of the present population of the Washington, D.C. public
schools?
A Well, I'll tell you what has happened c o Washington.
I wouldn't agree that it is a result of the desegregation of
the schools. The school system is now, I suppose, over ninety
per cent negro. It's up there someplace, but it's not — it
isn’t a great amount worse than a comparable area of the inner
city of most great metropolitan complexes of America.
In other words, the District is so small and the
housing is so rigidly segregated outside, that the pressure
has been inexorable for Negroes to concentrate in the narrow
district. I would not contend that some whites did not leave
the city because of desegregation, but I would contend that
the major portion of that followed the pattern of all the
other inner city core areas.
Q I think we know what the pattern is. What, in your
judgment, is the reason for that pattern having developed the
last ten or fifteen years?
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A Because "the marginal housing, the places that people
can get into, tend to be in the inner city core areas of the
large cities. They are the areas of least choice residentiilly,
tend to be.
Q Has your program that you worked out for .'Jew Rochelle
been generally successful in the desegregation of that district
A Yes. They went through a long era of what I would
call turbulence with the Court decision of Judge Kaplan requir
ing them to drop the neighborhood school concept in the light
of findings he made in the case and to give the children relief
and after a couple of years of bickering, they got a new super
intendent who desegregated the whole system.
Now, they have the next superintendent following hin,
and I feel they are pretty well on their way. The community
stabilized and they are in pretty good shape.
Q The essential finding of facts made by the District
Judge there was that there was a demonstrable plan over many
years to gerrymandering the Negro students into the school,
isn't that right?
A Yes.
Q Do you know enough about the geographic makeup of
the Little Rock School District to express an opinion as to
whether there i3 intentional gerrymandering on Defendant's
Exhibit 22?
A No, sir, I could not express an opinion on that. As
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b'jy
far as attendance lines, I think it’s next to impossible withou
a close study of them. If I looked at where you build schools,
and so on, I might raise many questions.
Q What is it you have done for the community of Mt.
Vernon, New York?
A I did a — I studied and recommended a plan for the
desegregation of the schools. They rejected it. They have again
gone through the era of turbulence the past three or four years
and the Commissioner of Education has now ordered them to put
this plan into operation, the essential features.
Q And you are presently a consultant in the New York
City Public School System?
A Not at the present time. I was at the time of the
boycotts in 19^4, the time of the crisis in that.
Q With respect to this program involving, I believe
you said, eight schools in the New York City System —
A Yes.
Q — This was a system of busing the Negroes to the
predominately white schools?
A The eight schools I referred to were pairings, or
the Princeton Plan arrangement, and these were two of these
neighborhood schools paired with each other somewhat in the
plan of your Beta idea here, I suppose. The six schools I
referred to in the busing were what they referred to as open
enrollment where they allowed the children in the inner city,
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overcrowded scnools to go by bus at public expense to outlying
schools where they had space.
Q That latter program was the one I had reference to.
A Yes.
Q Isn't it true that only six per cent of the hegro
students, approximately, given this choice or opportunity in
the open enrollment program, chose to be bused to the other
areas?
A I don't recall the exact percentage, but I would not
be surprised that it would be six per cent. It was a relatives
small per cent.
' Q I believe, if my notes are correct, that you testifi
in substance that many different devices could be incorporatec
into a desegregation plan but that none of them would work if
the community didn't want to make them work, is that right?
u A This is the conclusion you draw from the data I
have worked on and the experience I have had.
Q Would it be fair to say, in that same line of though
that the schools by themselves are not equipped to overcome
this social problem that arises from the co-existence of two
races in this country?
A The school cannot solve all the problems, but the
school can be removed as a source of the sorts of problems
that we are dealing with by public policy.
Q Is education the first business of the schools?
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A If you take it in its broader context, it is, yes.
Q Doctor, you referred several times to this 3eta
Complex in what came to be known as the Parsons Report. Would
it cost some money to implement that project?
A It would cost more.
Q Would the adoption of the Beta Complex by itself
solve the problem in the Little Rock School District that you
have testified to this morning?
A No, it would be one significant item in it, but it
would not solve the whole problem, goodness no.
Q Adopting that particular inovation by itself without
doing some other things would actually probably create some
problems, wouldn't it?
A Well, it would be a calculated risk in the broad
deal, if that’s all you did. I think it would be a calculated
risk. Whether it would stabilize that whole area that apparent]
is in transition at the present time by having enough involve
ment, enough reflection of total community that the people
would then see it as a community, or whether it would accelera
the segregated process by — as long as you've got this vast
wing out here that's all-white and so on, whether it would
accelerate people trying to escape because there is the escape
hatch out there always to move out into the other section, and
whites here looking over their shoulder at the other whites
who don't have to be involved in it with you, and saying they
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are picking on us.
Q Really* what you're saying, if I understand you, is
that in order to stem the flight of whites from a desegregated
or integrated situation in the public schools, you are going
to have to cut off the avenue of flight, is that right?
A You're going to have to bring the whole community
to share in the mix of population, in my judgment.
Q Well, when you do that, assume that we do that, what
is going to stem the flight of whites to another community, to
an adjacent community?
A Well, there's no guarantee that they won't, but the
experience has been that, as I stated in New Rochelle and so
on, that you could hold integrated schools — that is desegre
gated schools — up to 45 per cent over eight or ten years if
the whole community is involved in it, if the whole community
is sharing in the comparable things. In White Plains, the same
thing. The area around the Rochambeau School, when we closed
it, which was the Negro school in White Plains, every house
that sold was going to Negroes. Once they closed that school
and distributed these children around the community, that
neighborhood stabilized itself, and now a house sells to a
white and now to a Negro and so on. I cite this only to say
there is no guarantee they are not going to run someplace, but
ultimately, there is no hiding place out there and, consequent
you have to stand some time.
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Q Doctor, we have 171 all-white school districts in
this state. Don't they provide a hiding place?
A But it's not a hiding place for citizens who work
and live in Little Rock.
Q Do I correctly recall that in connection with all
the desegregation plans that you have mentioned that you had
a part in formulating, that they involved either the closing
of a Negro school or providing transportation for the students,
or both?
A Not quite, but almost.
Q And would you agree to the obvious, that both of
those devices are rather expensive?
A There is some expense involved.
Q You indicated that upon casual examination, you
think that if high school zones on Defendant's Exhibit 22 had
been drawn east to west, that it would have accomplished more
racial mixing than the way they are drawn as they appear on
the map, is thi3 correct?
A That’s correct.
Q Do you know how far the students in the eastern end
of the District would be from the high school to which they
would be assigned under that sort of zoning?
A It would depend in part, of course, on where they
are assigned. If you took all the children from the fartherest
distance and sent them as far as you could send them. It woulc
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different in an arrangement that you could work some of this
out on a different basis. I don’t know to what extent it could
be worked out but, assuming what you're saying, I don't know
how far it would be. It would be several miles.
Q Have you studied the Parsons Report and the Exhibits
to it which reflect that the Negro students living in the
eastern section of the District that would be assigned to Hall
High School under an east-west zoning plan would be six, seven
or eight miles to go to get to Hall High School?
A I have noted that figure being passed arounu.
Q Doctor, are you familiar with Dr. James Bryant Conant
A Yes.
Q Is he a recognized authority in the field of school
administration in the United States?
A Well, he never administered a school either.
Q He is president of Harvard University?
A He's one of the considerable experts of tne country,
yes sir.
Q Are you familiar with his publication “Slums and
Suburbs" published in 1961?
A Yes.
Q Let me ask you if you agree with this observation.
These are pages 38 through 41 of that document of Dr. Conant
"In some cities, political leaders have attempted
to put pressure on the school authorities to have Negro
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children — "
MR. WALKER: Excuse me, Your Honor, I hate to
interrupt Mr. Light, but several times during this hearing,
Mr. Light has pronounced the term Negro "Nigger" , and I would
ask the Court to admonish him to —
THE COURT: I suspect that's part of his natural
accent and you are perhaps looking unduly for offense, and he
meant no offense.
Am I correct, Mr. Light?
MR. LIGHT: Certainly, no offense was meant, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: I have trouble with my accent also.
All right, proceed.
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q "In some cities, political leaders have attempted
to put pressure on the school authorities to have Negro
children attend essentially white schools. In my judgment,
the cities in which authorities have yielded to this pressure
are on the wrong track. Those which have not done so, like
Chicago, are more likely to make progress in improving Negro
education. It is my belief that satisfactory education can
be provided in an all-Negro school through the expenditure of
more money for needed staff and facilities.
A I am familiar with the passage. I reviewed the book.
I disagreed with it then. I disagree with it now. I would
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s u b m it -that Chicago has had the same problems all the rest
have had and a good part of it is burned and there's been
nothing produced before nor since that would support Conant
in what he said.
Q Would you agree with me that Mr. Hubert Humphrey,
Vice President of the United States, has achieved some expertis
in national standing as a public official vitally interested
in the area of civil rights and education?
A Yes.
Q Let me ask you if you agree with this passage from
Mr. Humphrey's publication "Integration versus Segregation"
published in 1964.
A All right.
Q "To use fixed racial quotas in the assignment of
students as is now being tried in some metropolitan centers
does not appear a sound and workable solution. In assigning
students on the basis of such quotas, the constitutional
principle of race is not a legitimate factor for determining
school assignment is actually being violated. The Constitutior
is colorblind. It should no more be violated to attempt
integration than to preserve segregation."
A Yes.
Q Do you find yourself in agreement with that?
A No, sir, and I agree with Judge Kaplan in his New
Rochelle decision when he said you don't have to be that blinc
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I don't, feel you can deal with this problem and not be con
scious of the responsibility of the board of education to leac
kids to make meaningful encounter with each other as a citizei
ship dimension of their education.
Q Have you examined the exhibits in this case that
undertake to project what the racial composition of the schoo]
would be under the plan represented by Defendant's Exhibit 22?|
A That's the sheet there with — yes, I think I've seei
that, I haven't studied it particularly.
Q You have examined it sufficiently to know that it
does not strike anything that you would characterize as a
racial balance in the school system, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Would you agree with me, Doctor, that the amount of
racial separation that would result in that projection that
we have just discussed is not dissimilar from the amount of
racial separation that we find in all communities — north,
south, east and west -- in this nation today?
A Not all communities. I would agree that segregation
is pronounced in many communities.
Q I used the term "separation".
A Would you spell out — I'm not sure I understand
what you mean.
Q To make it clear, what I mean is isn't tnere a
tendency in this country for the Negro people to congregate
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together where they live and where they go to church and, in
some areas , for the Jewish people and the Italian people to dc
that, and for the white people to do that?
A There is some tendency toward self-segregation, but
with the Negro group, this hasn't been a voluntary situation
to anything like the extent that the others have and, con
sequently, it is different — there's been opposition in some
of the others to a certain extent but, largely, we have out
grown that as the Negro is still the vestige of that pattern
that is not voluntary segregation.
Q There are a great number of states in this Union
that either never had school segregation required by law or
if they did, abandoned it fifty years or so ago, are there
not?
A Yes.
Q Do you not find the same separation of races,
essentially, in those schools that you do in states that
formerly had de jure segregation?
A Almost. In the large cities, the large city problems
and again this is not completely voluntary self-segregation.
It is a segregation of many, many sorts, the inability to get
into the suburbs, the lack of economic ability to pay, and
many other factors. United States Commission on Civil Rights,
"Racial isolation in the public schools"?
A Yes.
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Q , You have read that, have you not?
A Yes.
Q Let me ask you if you recall and agree with this
finding on Page 199 of that publication: "Racial isolation
in public schools is intense throughout the United States. In
the nation’s metropolitan area, where two-thirds of both
Negro and white population now live, it is most severe. Seventy
five per cent of the Negro elementary students in the nation’s
cities are in schools with enrollments that are nearly all
Negro, 90 per cent or more Negro, while 83 per cent of the
white students are in nearby all-white schools. Nearly nine
out of every ten Negro elementary students in the cities attend
majority Negro schools. This high level of racial separation
in city schools exists whether the city is large or small,
whether the proportion of Negro enrollment is large or small,
and whether the city is located north or south."
Do you agree with that?
A I'd make some exceptions, but generally that is
correct.
Q Doctor, if a plan that you devised could strike a
racial balance in every school in the Little Rock School Syste:
would that overcome the existence of any disparity in the
educational opportunities between the various schools?
A It would be the first major step toward it. Obvious!;
mixing the bodies, as some sneeringly refer to it, does not
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/ JLU
accomplish miracles, but I do not believe the disparities will
be overcome until that first step is taken.
Q It is just physically impossible to maintain all
schools on an identical basis, isn't that true, if you have
as many as two schools?
A That’s correct.
Q You are always going to have one that's new —
A That’s right.
Q — and one that’s bigger.
A As long as you’ve got the neighborhood schools.
Q And some of them will have staffs that are thought
to be somewhat better than others?
A That’s what I’m saying, yes.
Q You’re saying as long as you have neighborhood
schools.
A That’s right.
Q That’s as long as you have as many as two schools,
isn’t it, however you assign students to them?
A Well, certainly, pupils under certain circumstances
may have teachers better or worse. You never can shield them
from bad teachers, but the point that I have tried to follow
in this has stemmed from the Delaware case. The Chancelor in
that Court said he had investigated the facilities and they
were manifestly inferior.
Q Are we talking about ancient history here, fifteen
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years ago?
A I beg your pardon?
Q Aren't we talking about fifteen years ago?
A I'm talking about the philosophy he enunciated there
that I've sort of stuck to since then in my thinking. He said
he had no patience with judges who ordered them to do somethin
about it and then told them to hang around four or five years
to see if they had done anything about it. He said the only
way you could make unequal facilities equal was to make such
facilities as existed equally acceptable to all. When the
community shares — when all the community shares in the in
equalities as well as the equalities, then everybody has more
nearly the fair and equal chance, and then the inequality is
not based on race or anything of that sort.
Q I understand you to say that the sort of racial
balance that you advocate the maintenance of in the schools
and that you feel is educationally desirable need not be
struck on a day to day or, I take it, week to week basis?
A Sure.
Q And you say you would allow flexibility in that
regard?
A Yes.
Q How frequently would a school administration be
711
charged with restriking its balance?
A Well, if you would take a system, we’ll say, that
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712
had thirty per cent Negro children or you could take it the
other way, seventy per cent white -- I don't care which, and
say that you would allow a flexibility so that thirty per cent
over and below this percentage would be — this is arbitrary
but this is what we took in Pennsylvania — in other words , if
there were thirty per cent Negro children in the school distric
in the elementary division, then you could go as high as thirt/
nine per cent Negro in some schools and you -light go as low as
twenty-one per cent in other schools, which would be nine per
cent, over and above -- the per cent of the per cent you see ,
and this would give flexibility in which you could move.
Q All right, after the start of the school term and
the striking of the original racial balance to start the school,
term, then the school authorities would only be cnarged with
daily calculating the racial balance and not charged with
altering the racial balance until they fell below or above the
outer limits of your percentage flexibility, is that correct?
A That would be right, provided the others were not
out of balance in some fashion, yes.
Q Did you hear Dr. Stimbert's testimony yesterday
afternoon?
A Yes.
Q Did you hear him testify that every twenty days, it
is necessary for them to revise the home addresses of 6,000
students, that there is that much mobility within high school
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districts?
A That’s correct.
Q Do you think with that much mobility that it would
be something to recalculate —
A Not much of it, because a lot of it is circular
mobility of the same ethnic group moving around. The more
mobile population tends to be your more marginal population
in the lower income neighborhoods, so they’d come pretty
nearly canceling each other out for the most part.
Q There are a lot of transitional neighborhoods,
though, aren’t there?
A The point at which it would create problems is
where the tipping point would be readied and all of a sudden,
a massive withdrawal of whites and a vast influx of Negroes,
and I think this is helped immensely if you distribute this
load, this population, so that these are now community schools
rather than the others. Certainly, the neighborhood school
concept as it is now does not solve it.
HR. LIGHT: Your Honor, could we take the lunch
recess now?
THE COURT: All right, we will adjourn until 1:30.
(Thereupon at 12:00 o'clock the above entitled
proceedings were recessed, to reconvene at 1:30 o'clock, p.m.
the afternoon of the same day.)
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714
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE COURT: All right, gentlemen.
1:30 p.ra.
Thereupon,
DR. DAN W. DODSON
having previously been called as a witness by counsel for
defendants, and having previously been duly sworn, resumed
tha stand and was examined and testified further aB follows:
CROSS EXAMINATION - Resumed
-
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q Doctor, has White Plains successfully implemented
your plan for desegregation?
A It was not ray plan. White Plains was not ray plan,
but they have successfully implemented a plan.
Q What is causing the high school unrest there that
you were talking about?
A I hope I know more about it when I'm through with
the study, but the way it looks now, the issue of tho black
militants ideology that has come into the community and affected
a bunch of the young people.
So far I've found very few who felt they would have
had any trouble had it not been for that.
Q Is that in high school or high schools where the
system is attempting to maintain a reasonable balance?
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'A There is one high school attempting to serve the
community of some seventeen thousand people.
Q Would it be fair to say the Rev# York City Public
School system has tried all sorts of innovative devices to
overcome the problem of racial balance?
A Ho, sir, that would not be fair to say. They have
devised many, many policies and many programs. Very few of
theta have really been implemented to any — sufficiently to
consider them really to have been tried.
Q I believe we heard about the more effective school
programs yesterday. That’s one of them, is it?
A Yes. This is probably as extensive a trial, and
this is the use of compensatory education.
Q And they tried the programs you mentioned this morn
ing that involved eight schools in one program and six in
another?
A Well, the eight schools was a pairing operation as
a part of what they were trying to do with desegregation. Ti
open enrollment included many other schools than these six.
I only stated six out of many others.
TH5 COURT: Did they include Public Schools Six an.
Seven? Which were paired?
A I don’t recall tho numbers of them. One was in
Brooklyn Heights with an area near the Havy Yard. One was
the Triborough Bridge in Queens, in thaone pair was up near
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neighborhood. Another one was out in Queens, a considerable
distance, in a middle-class neighborhood, and I've forgotten
where the other one was of the pair. Thore woro four of then.
BY KR. LIGHT*
Q Are you familiar with a pairing of a Negro or pre
dominantly Negro school and a predominantly Jewish school
that was enthusiastically endorsed by the patrons of both
schools?
A If you'ro referring to a specific one of those four,
that was the Queens middie-class neighborhood area, yes.
Q The description I just gave fit the two schools tha1
you observed?
A That's right.
Q Isn't it right that both of those schools, after
the pairing, converted back to where you had two all-Negro
or predominantly Negro schools?
A Not the ones that — that would not be correct.
They had a considerable amount of disruption at that pairing,
and some of the parents set up a private little school that
operated for a little while, and then it fizzled out and the
schools have maintained their proportionate relationship to
each other in the one I'm thinking about* I know cf none
where they have bo tin gone all Negro.
Q Among the other devices that the New York city PubL
Schools have undertaken is local control in some instances,
716
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i s th a t r ig h t?
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A T h is i s the cu rren t con tro versy ,
Q A l l r i g h t . And i t has been undertaken to supply
or re p la c e w hite p r in c ip a ls w ith Negro p r in c ip a ls in a ll-N egcc
sc h o o ls?
A T h is i s a p a rt o f the lo c a l c o n tro l is s u e .
Q And i s i t a lso true th a t the New York C ity p u b lic
sc h o o l system has a v a ila b le and does expend co n sid era b ly morje
in th e way o f per p u p il expenditure than i s ty p ic a l or averajgt
throughout th e n a t io n '3 p u b lic sch o o ls?
A I guess th a t would be c o rre c t on a n a tio n a l average
Q And as a r e s u lt o f a l l o f th ese and oth er programs
th a t I am sure we have not mentioned in th a t sch ool system ,
th ey have encountered te a c h e rs ' s tr ik e s because o f d i s s a t i s
fa c t io n by the teach ers w ith ad m in istrative r e g u la tio n , isn*
t h i s r ig h t?
A No, s i r . The i n i t i a l te a c h e rs ' s t r ik e s grew much
more o u t o f —— ou t o f the problem o f teacher morale in t e a m
in g in th e segregated neighborhoods, and the attem pt to shore
up d i s c ip l i n e in some fash ion or another.
drove a wedge between the Negro and the whi te
te a c h e r groups to a con sid era b le e x te n t .
The la t e r s tr ik e grew out o f the lo c a l c o n tr o l cor
tr o v e r s y and th ese are on ly — there are on ly th ree o f these
and th e ir experim ental u n its and th ey are In term ediate Schoc]
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t201 in Harlem —
Q Let me interrupt you a moment, Doctor, if I may,
and we may save some time. This is very interesting, but I
think we are getting into more detail than —
A Sure, but could I just say one thing about these,
however, in fairness? These three were the proposal of the
Ford Foundation to attempt getting the schools back to peopl i
at local control basis but also turning over to the coiamunit f
completely the control for these schools and the strike grew
out of the controversy over whether, under this local contro:.
plan, they had the right to fire teachers that they didn't
want in those districts, and this was heavily a racial business.
Q Currently and for some time in the past, violence
has been a problem in the Hew York City schools, has it not?
A In some schools.
Q And some schools have had to have police protection
to handle the situation?
A This is primarily in the controversial schools in
which the fight was going on.
Q They have had occasions recently where the students
were striking or in soma instances taking over the school, is
that right?
A Right, and this has grown generally out of this conh
troversy, this strike controversy.
Q The Hew York City schools are in a state of disorder.
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are they not?
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A That is, I think, a good statement.
Q And against all of tills background of efforts to
overcome the problems of racial imbalance, there ia still a
high degree of racial separation within the schools of that
system, isn't there?
A They never seriously undertook to correct racial
imbalance, as I was trying to say. They have done a few tliiki
Eight schools out of five hundred is not a significant undarf-
taking* The problem is much m o r e the segregated worlds —
there is a higher degree of segregation there now them at thje
time of the Supreme Court decision.
Q Your reference to the Chester, Pennsylvania situati
that system abandoned its neighborhood schools and went to an
effort to achieve racial balance, is that correct?
A Only in the last two or three years under the ordejc
of the Human Rights Commission of the state.
Q And the result is that although Negroes made up alsf:
twenty per cent of the school population of the district, no.i
seventy per cent of the pupils in the schools are Negro?
A It wasn't a result of it. It was when they were
relying on the neighborhood school to save them that this
proportion occurred. It was tv?enty per cent of the p o p u l a t i
not the students, twenty per cent of the entire town was Meg
and constituted seventy per cent of the population in the
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schools.
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Q And the white students went where? Into private
schools?
A Private schools, parochial achoolB, wherever.
Q Any escape route available, is that right?
A I would guess this is approximately correct.
Q Axe you familiar. Doctor, with what occurred in
Prince Edward County, Virginia, in that school system when
it undertook to achieve racial balance there? Do you know
the public school system is now all-Negro in that county, ar.
Surrey County, also?
A I'm not familiar with that.
Q Are you familiar with the experience in Taliaferro
County, Georgia where it was undertaken to pair the two echo
in that system to achieve racial balance?
A I am not familiar with that.
Q Have you been made aware recently, perhaps on the
occasion of your visit to Arkansas, of what happened to the
GouldL, Arkansas, school system when it undertook to comply
with the order of this Court to achieve racial balance?
A Ho, I am not aware of it.
Q Doctor, can you tell me several Bchool systems wit
which you are familiar with a proportion of Hegro students a
large as that that exists in the Little Rock school district
that have achieved and maintained a racial balance in a stab
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situation over a period of time?
A Your proportion is what?
Q Something over thirty per cent, I believe.
A The Greenberg, for fifteen years, ha3 maintained vp
to 33, 34 or 35 per cent.
Q Greenberg, is that a school system, or a single
school?
A In a system.
>
Q What state?
A Greenberg School District 8 in Weschester County
that I made reference to this morning that had the three sc><
serving the entire eleiuentary make-up, a very — the White
BLains, I guess, runs about twenty-five per cent. That woulc
be stable for four years, since they did something with it.
Q That’s where your unrest is, though, isn't it?**
A Yes, but the unrest is not particularly related tc
this problem. It's irrelevant, in my judgment, to draw it i
Q Be mindful that my question pertains to a school
system with a student body of thirty per cent — a school si
tern with as large a proportion of Negro students as thirty
per cent.
A I'm just trying to think of some, and these come t
my mind first.
Q You mentioned Greenberg that has something like
thirty-five per cent.
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Q What others?
A Well, the others, I guess, would run slightly lees
than that, that I think of offhand.
Q Out of thousands and thousands of biracial school
systems in the nation, you can only cite one that has done
this thing successfully.
A I don' t know whether that is a reflection on the
extent of my knowledge or what the situation was. I think
it's the first.
Q You had an opportunity to examine the proposed fac
ulty desegregation plan that the defendants have presented
to the Court in thi3 proceeding?
A Somewhat.
Q Would you agree with Dr. Stimbert that that is an
ambitious and far-reaching proposal?
THE COURTi I don't understand the question.
MR. LIGHT* I asked if he would agree with Dr. Star!
bert that that is an ambitious and far-reaching proposal.
THE WITNESS * I'd say this. I think if you could
bring it off, it would be better than nothing if this is
if this is all you could do. The reservations I have about
it is how you assign white teachers into schools that are nc*
Negro, principly this problem, and get the same quality or
teachers there. The tendency will be that you siphon off tl '
A Yes*
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b e s t Negro teach ers from the Negro school and send them to
the w h ite and the w hite teach ers th a t go to the Negro sch ool
w i l l be the superannuates and the n o v it ia te s .
Q I saw nothing in the plan th a t provided fo r th a t,
did you?
A I 'm ta lk in g about what tho re a lism in execu tin g i t
i s . O b v io u sly , i t i s not in the p la n .
Q There are going to be problems encountered in the
im plem enting o f th a t , are th ere not?
A Y e s , and they are compounded con sid era b ly by the
f a c t th a t th e sc h o o ls to which the teach ers are assigned a l
ready have a s ta tu s , poor or good, and teach ers accept or
r e s i s t becau se th ey are not community sc h o o ls . They are n ei
borhood s c h o o ls .
y q D octor, do you know o f any other sch ool d i s t r i c t
wi t h a p ro p o rtio n o f Negro students th a t e x is t s as h igh as
t h i s d i s t r i c t th a t has undertaken so m assive a reassignm ent
o f te a c h e rs program fo r the purpose o f moving toward r a c ia l
b a la n ce?
A No, s i r .
Q One o f the problems a sch ool ad m in istrator has in
u n dertakin g fa c u lty desegregation i s th a t the teach ers can
q u i t , i s n ' t i t ?
A Y e s .
Q T h e re 's n ot any law th a t makes them work fo r any
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A That's correct.
Q The teachers who don't quit, but are unhappy in
their situations, are unlikely to perform well or likaly to
perform poorly in their new Jobs, are they not?
A That tends to be correct, but I'd hasten to add
that the reason for it, their unhappiness, i3 that they judga
their worth and what the administration thinks their worth
is by the place to which they are assigned.
Q But there could be lots of reasons for their unhap?
ness, couldn't there?
A Well, sure, but in this context, this is the reason
Q With respect to the neighborhood school concept, ii
particular school district?
it fair to say that the vast majority of the public school
systems in the country use it?
A Yes.
Q And have for many years?
A Yes.
Q The parental support that I understand is one of
the advantages cited in support of this neighborhood school
system is educationally desirable, isn't it?
A I'm sorry, the first part of your question —
Q I say is it educationally desirable to have paren
support of the neighborhood schools?
Of any school. Of any school system, not just
neighborhood schools.
Q This is an important element in education, isn't
it, a communication between the home and school?
A It is important.
Q An involvement of the parent in school affairs.
A Yes, it's important,
Q And moving from the neighborhood school concept to
one whereby students are transported much further away from
their homc3 to schools unquestionably makes it more difficui
to obtain or maintain that support, does it not?
A I would not say that it is so in terms of the transit
experiences that I have had,
Q Let's get down to specifics. Isn't it common prac
tice in school districts that you have been familiar with for
the mothers periodically to corao down and relieve the teacher
during a period when the teacher needs to do something else?
A Ko, sir, she would not be allowed to do it in our
section.
Q You are not aware of that?
A She is not a person to have a class intrusted to
Q Have you ever heard of a project called "Rainy Dav
Mother" when the mother goes down and relieves the teacher
during the recess?
A I have heard of parents coming in and assisting ir
many ways, but the principle is the same.
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------------- 7 5 T -
Q And is it deaircible?
A Yes. To have the —
Q To have the parents coming in and discharging thesa
obligations?
A Yes.
Q tfon't you agree it is going to be more difficult
to have those services rendered if it'3 seven miles across
town or eight miles, than it would be if it's two blocks fro
the home where the mother iiven?
A The schools that I know, there has boon involvement
I assume there would be a little problem at this kind of lev
but the schools I know of, you have had different levels of
involvement that were equally good.
Q Is it not uncommon for a small child to get sick
at school' and have to go home?
A Yes.
Q And doesn't it make that problem of getting the
child home more difficult if he is seven miles from home in
rather than two blocks?
A To a certain extent.
Q Doctor, in your educational part concept or your
concept of having the schools serve a much larger area of thj
city, how do the low income families that need to be involve:
in the school work get across town and devote the time to do
that? How does that encourage them to do it?
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A Well, the — it happens in different ways. Sometiu
the parents* organization provides a transportation arrange
ment, and it's been good for the parents in the area that
seven miles away as well a a the ethers.
Sometimes they have, as ftew Rochello moved to havi >
the meetings in homes and smaller groups, and so on, and have
accomplished it without the great amount of massive movement
of this sort.
Q Let me ask you whether you agree with this statemen
by Dr. Bruno Bedelheira, Professor of Education and Psychiatry
at the University of Chicago, the statement having been mad a
two or three weeks ago*
"We have asked our schools to solve the problems
of society and they were not designed to do that. Heaven
knows there are plenty of evils in society to be corrected
but the school is not the institution to do it without being
destroyed."
A The — I would say fundamentally this is right. 0:i
the other hand, I would say that the American people have hac
great faith in the school throughout the history of the comm*
school, tin at it would fill the gap that was created between
tho society and the growth and development needs of children
whatever this was. Clark Whistler said that education had
become our religion. What we used to pray that God send us,
now education provides. So great was his faith. The demand
727
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720
that education clone this gap for these children and bring
them into full scale participation in this generation is a
source of a great tension, and this is fundamentally the nchjx
job, not society's job, and the frustration is in no small
measure seeing the school fail in this job, a job that it ha
performed so admirably for nationality groups and for the lo v
oocio-eccnomic whites ahead of it.
Q Are you familiar with the report of the Educational
Policies Commission of the National Education Association thjit
*■ v.
Dr. Stimbert referred to yesterday?
A Yes.
Q Tell me, Doctor, whether you agree with these state
ments from that report:
"The neighborhood school has many advantages, part
ularly in early education. It facilitates the efforts of thjj
teacher to knew the home and community which explains so much
about each pupil.1*
THE COURT: A little louder, please.
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q "The neighborhood school makes it easier for paren .£
to identify with and support their children's education, and
it is easier to make a community center of the school ii it
is truly a neighborhood school. The simple mixing cf races
in a school does not solve itself all the problerp.3 of inter-
gration. Desegregation is a physical phenomenon, but inter-
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729
gration is a psychological phenomenon. The mere physical
presence of different groups in the same building can be bad
as well a3 good. In a heterogeneous situation Negro children,
if they are disadvantaged, may be unable to compete academi
cally. White pupils ra&y come to feel superior and Negro pupi]
despised and lonely. The various groups may develop only
disrespect, fear or jealousy of each other. The question to
be asked about all proposals is whether they will improve tha
education of the pupils involved, not whether they will con
tribute to the other goals involved, even desegregation.*
Do you agree with those observations of that Commis
sion?
A There are so many of them I would have to break
theta up, I think. In gexioral, I would say that the most bacLi
curriculum decision a board of education ever makes is who
is going to school with whom, because this sets the condition
under which encounters take place.
Whether a child ie happy in a school, whether other
despise him or not, or whether they get along or not, can’t
be guaranteed. When you add wider ranges^f difference,
obviously you increase the frictions in any kind of situatio i 8 You know, we were singing this beautiful lyric "getting to
know you. M It may be that when I got to know you, I won't
like you as well as T did before. But the issue is, whether
we like each other or not, and this has never been the basis
730
Q The question is whether you agree with that state
ment.
of school assignment, whether kids can get along or not.
A I'm putting the footnote to the statements of grouj
superintendents who, by and large, are mortgaged men to the
communities they serve.
0 Are you acquainted with Dr. Archibald B. Shaw, Asso
ciate Secretary of the American Association of School Adminis
trators, who has his doctorate in education from Mew York
University?
A What's his first name?
Q Archibald B. Shaw.
A Yes, I know Archie.
Q Let me ask you if you agree with this statement
from Dr. Shaw's book entitled "The Neighborhood School" whera
he states:
i*»li
“The eleioentary schools must be neighborhood schools
or become mechanical sorters of kids or purveyors of a kind
of robot education. It is not only distasteful and un-Axnerijzai
to try to compartmentalize Kids according to soma pre-establ
ed religious, color and culture niix as it is futile. Peop-t.
who are more mobile than ever before just won't stay put. Tjic
result too often has been a rapid re-segregation and a genet
lowering of educational opportunity for all.
Do you agree v/ith Dr. Shaw's views there?
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A In part, there would be a semantic problem hero.
If you expand two schools to serve an aroa, are they still
neighborhood schools, or do you lose neighborhood in the doing
of it, and this is — this takes us back to the question post d
two thousand years ago as to who is my neighbor, and I think
here we get into the biggest problem on it. There is nothing
that I have seen or observed or read that is hard data that
says that neighborhood schools get more creativeness or per
formance out of children than other kinds.
Q Are you familiar with the publication "The Nation' t
Schools"?
A I don't read it regularly.
Q Is it a widely circulated document in the education
profession?
A Yes, particularly among the administrators.
Q Are you familiar with a poll conducted in October,
1963, by that magazine propounding the question to the school
superintendents of the nation about whether de facto segrega
tion warranted an abandonment of the neighborhood schools?
Did you know that such a poll was conducted?
A RO.
Q In all candor, Doctor, I'm sure you would agree wi>
mo that there is a good deal of diversity of professional
opinion concerning the neighborhood school concept and the
educational part concept, is that correct?
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732
as
ny
A Yes, I would certainly agree.
0 There are an awful lot of professional educators
with good credentials who would disagree with some of the ido
you have brought here?
A I would certainly agree.
KR. LIGHT; Thank you, Doctor.
THE COURT; Dr. Dodson, I have enjoyed your testiia<b
today. Itfle bean most interesting and informative, and I hoj|>e
nothing I say will bo taken as reflecting on it in any way.
I realize experts quite often disagree.
I was quite surprised this morning by your referen^
to the Coleman Report. I was interested in it when it came
out and while I have not read the report itself, I have read
several reviews on it. One of them I had down here at the
X>
office, and this one is by Dr. Roger A. Freeman, a senior st
member from the Education Department of Stanford University,
author of several books. This review says, referring to the
Coleman Report; "Moreover, there io no evidence that racial
mixing, per se, whether by open enrollment, busing or any other
plan, advances ̂ immeasurably t.ha achievements of lagging chilu-
ron." And it goes on to say the sad experiences oi. Public
School 7 and Public School 8 in Brooklyn.
THE WITNESSs Those arc the two.
THE COURT; Again he quotes Christopher Jenko, rev..ew
ing the Coleman Report in"The New Republic", which by no mea is
,i£f
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733
is a conservative publication:
"Overall, the report makes a convincing although
not definite case for tho view that student achievement depe:
largely on forces over which today's schools exercise little
control. **
l-
Further down, discussing the Coleman Report, Ilenry
Levin of the Brookings Institute, wrote: "Since children
possess a wide range of inherited abilities and are products
of different family and community influences, the finding V
that most variation in performance is not attributable to th3
schools is hardly surprising. The literature on testing
suggests that from sixty to ninety per cent of the variance
M b - -1in standarised ability tests is attributable to genetic driv2£
in individuals."
Would you like to comment on those?
THE WITNESS: Yes. The first part of it, I was
very careful to say that the report said that the children
who did best were in tho desegregated schools, but did not
say that — I said somewhere in the testimony that the differ
ences that have been accomplished, except in isolated instant
hasn’t been dramatic, that we have had very little. I think
there are some reasons for this but more or less this is so.
I cited White Plains, I think, is different to that, more e£f<:<
tive school was not different. Public School 7 and the other
of those four were not dramatically different after the first
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734
two years* I would taka exception with the last issue. 1
would think this would be a very dangerous period* It would
be aii interpretation that these differences that exist on an
ethnic group basis —
THE COURT: I don't think they were referring to
ethnic groups as such.
THE WITNESS: Ho, but if you took this and looked
at the differences that exist among children, it would be a
dangerous interpretation, and I think that the biggest problbu
on it is that you tend to draw generalisations concerning the
sub-cultural group moaning the Negro group on the basis of
experience that is acquired in the majority group, and observa
tions that are validated there that are not supportable in tile
other context. Somehow or another, when these militants get
hold of some of these kids they can't teach or do anything
else with, thoy become remarkably intelligent and run circles
around the rest of us. I think it gives the lie to the idea
that the limitations are in the children but in the quality
of the life space which includes the school in which they
function.
THE COURT: Thank you. Doctor.
REDIRECT1 EXAMINATION
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Doctor, in your opinion as an educator or sociology
and human relations consultant, is it ever justification to
t
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refuso to intergrate or racially balance schools because of
t
difficult or trying circumstances?
A No. If segregation hurts them in their hearts and
ways* likely to never be undone, as the Court said, then the
resistance of the dominant group to deal with this, I do not
believe, can bo a factor that stands in the way of these chi Lc
ren achieving their civil rights.
Q Can you over isolate either the white or the Hcgro
community from these effects?
A Ho.
Q Is it dangerous to do so?
A I think so.
Q In what ways?
A That we tend then to see this as a racial problem
that it exists with this group or that group, that we are no:
working on the causes of the racism of the dominant group th a'
creates the problems for the others.
Q r. Dodson, v;hen you spoke of achieving racial bal
ance in a school was this a day to day balance or a projectia
based on the coming year or any other period?
A In the average school situation, if there is suffi
cient thinking and planning with regard to it, it might not
be more than once a decade, for instance. The places that ti
greatest difficulty would occur might be in places that arc
local elementary schools that would be tipped, reach a trppir
23 1
point, and .have a massive withdrawal of whites from it or
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v
something to this effect, where you might have some problem.
Eut in spite of the fact the superintendent said yesterday
that they change addresses of some 3ix thousand children e^e:'
twenty days, this doesn't necessarily mean a shift of racial
balance in these cchools. The mobility is much moro of an
equilibrium kind of thing of a movement within the groups
rather than a shift out of the ghettos.
Q Ones a community school is established, ia a great
deal of that problem obviated?
A Yes. Itcs been tay experience in these schools I
have worked with that this is so.
Q There was talk about flight and any available alter
native. From your experience in New Rochelle, would you des
cribe New Ilocholla, vis a vis, it's relationship to other
communities around I’ew York City?
A Well, it's located in the southern end of weschest^r
County, surrounded by other bedroom type communities of the
suburbs of New York. It has the low income segment in it,
many of whom provide maid service for a large area around
where they can't live otherwise.
On top of this or in relation to this is a growing
middle—class contfcunity of Negroes who present all the charac
teristics of stability and all that the white groups present
Q So this is only one of several identifiable satellf-t^
737
conuaun.iti.es whore people work in New York City?
A That's right.
Q Wa3 there a flight from New Rochelle itself to othfcir
communities around it?
A Ko0 Real estate people tried to toll them that lie
Rochelle was running down, but it's a much stronger community
new than it was then.
Q That Judge in the New Rochelle case was Judge Kauf
man?
A I'm sorry. It had slipped my mind. I thought it
was Judge Kaplan.
Q Now, with reference to Prince Edward County, Virgihia
is that not a school district where Neal Sullivan made his first
attempt at decogregating schools?
A That's right.
Q Is he the same Neal Sullivan who is now in Berkele/,
California?
A That's right. He is now moving to Commissioner of
Education in Massachusetts.
Q Do you know anything of his work in Berkeley?
A It's been quite outstanding.
Q Was that a good faith effort on the part of the
entire community to attempt a policy of complete desegregatio
A Yes, one of the outstanding in America.
Q Doctor, do you see any difference in'your own mind
n
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c*£ the demonstrable plan in the New Rochelle case to keep a
segregated school district and the tradition and legacy of a
dual school system in the couth?
A &ot particularly,
Q M, E» »>®, More Effective Schools, is a compensator
education technique?
A That"s right. It had nothing to do with desegrega
tion.
Q There was also talk about tho relatively small nua
ber of Negro children who transferred in an open enrollment
730
busing situation. Can you account for the relatively small
number of people who did this?
A In part, the bureaucracy did its best to keep it
from coming off well in tho beginning at least. David Roger
documents this in his book called "110 Livingston Street”
which is a study of tho school system. In part, it did not
succeed because, like all programs of this sort, it puts the
responsibility for seeking redress for any quality upon the
parent and his child rather than its being a public responsi
bility and, third, the limitation of space in the outlying
schools involved in it, and, four, the conflict on the part
of the more astute Negro leadership as to whether, if they
took their children out and sent them to the outlying school:
they wouldn’t 3imply drain off the leadership from the commin
itios where the probleais existed and, therefore, weaken furtl
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their communities.
Q In your experience. Dr. Dodson, has any system eve:
been effective in desegregating schools where tho burden has
boon placed exclusively on the child who is to desegregated?
A Ko, oir,
Q Is it possible, in your opinion, to do this —
THE CGUriT; That is outside the confines of this
case.
&R. KAPLAN: That is all. Your Honor.
MR. LIGHT: One question, if Your Honor please.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY HR. LIGHT?
Q You mentioned several reasons that you accept as
accounting for the small number of Negro students who availed
themselves of tho opportunity to be busod out to the predomi
nantly white schools. Could another valid reason be that
both Negro and white parents prefer to have the children att :i
school in the neighborhood where they live?
A For a considerable number, this would be so.
MR. LIGHTi Thank you.
THE COURT! Thank ycu. Doctor.
(Witness excused.)
MR. WALKER: Ycur Honor, before beginning with the
next witness, it might save time if wo might pray the Court
to take judicial knowledge of the fact of private discriraina :i
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in housing in the City of Littlo Rock.
THE COURT: I cannot take a judicial knowledge of
private discrimination. It#s been shown in this case beyond
question that a great deal of the housing in Little Rock is
segregated, but I don’t say that is necessarily discriminate
MR. ROTEMBERRY: Your Honor, may I remind the Cour
I have asked Dr. Barron to be present about 2*30 in accordafi
with our discussion in chambers yesterday. If he como3 in,
in the event Hr. Meeks is going to bo sometime, if we could
interrupt Mr. Keeks® testimony —
THE COURT: It would bo all right with the Court.
Thereupon,
WILLIAM R. MEEKS, JR.
having been called as a witness by counsel for plaintiff, an:
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows*
DIRECT EXAMINATION
740
BY MR. WALKERS
Q would you stats your name and your occupation, pic
A William R. Meeks, Jr.; realtor.
THE COURT: Mr. Meeks, did you testify last August
THE WXTKESSs Yes, sir.
THE COURT* Yes, I see.
BY MR. WALKER*
Q H ow long have you bean a realtor in the City of
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Little Rock?
A I have been engaged in real estate or accompanying
business since 1947* I*vo been a realtor since 1954.
Q I see, la there an association of realtors in the
City of Little Rock?
A Yea,
Q Is the racial composition of the membership of that
organization all white?
A Yea,
Q Are there Negro realtors in the City of Little Rock
A There are Negro real ©3tato people in the City of
Little Rock®
Q And do they have a separate organization?
A I*xa not sure. I believe they do, Mr. Walker.
Q I see. Mr. Keeks, before, at the August 16th hear
ing, you indicated that you did not know of any real estate
persons who developed subdivisions in predominantly white
areas who would have, prior to 1968, sold homes to Negroes
willingly, is that true?
A I believe I stated I did not know of it.
Q You did not?
A No.
Q Have you over been very much involved in the real
estate association in the last few years?
A I have been a member since 1954.
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Q Have you hold any office in tho organization?
A. Yea, I have been president.
Q When were you president?
A In — really, I don't recall. I think 1950 or *5$.
Q And were you also named "Real Estate Man of the
Year" or sorae similar title?
THE COURTS That's on page 297.
BY MR. WALKERS
742
Q All right. Mr. Meeks, did you have occasion in
the years in between 1954 and I960 to advertise houses or re,
estate listed for sale with you in the Arkansas Gazetto?
A Yes.
Q Were you aware of the fact that during this perioc
of time, the Arkansas Gazette and tho Arkansas Democrat, botl
local newspapers, had separate listings for colored property
A Yea.
Q And was it ever an occasion for you to list proper
as for sale to colored?
A Well, now, the bonding — tho way it's carried in
the paper a3 "colored property for sale" or "colored proper!
for rent".
Q Yes.
A On occasion the particular individual sales persor
that had the particular ad does place the heading in the wai
ads where he wants it
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Q So won id you 3ay that what you would do, when you
p l a c e advertisements in tine Gazette for homes to be sold, th
if tho property was to b© listed for sale to Negroes, you woi]
have it placed under the Item No. 165, "colored property for
sale"?
A In certain instances, that's correct.
Q 1 a es. Would this sometimes be because of tho fac-
that the owners of the property requested that the property
be sold to Hegroes?
A In soma cases, yes.
Q And would you also list property in the general
"for sale" section becauso of the fact that the owner did not
want that property to be sold to Negroes?
A I suppose it could be that, yes.
Q Would you have an opinion, Mr. Meeks, as to uhothc r
or not, between the years 1954 through 1966, there did exist
to some considerable degree private discrimination in housing
A You will have to define what you mean.
THE COURT: You're standing so close to Mr. Meeks
they can’t hear you, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKERS All right. Your Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Would you have an opinion as a real estate broker
as to whether, in the years between 1954 and 1966, there exi i
in the City of Little Rock considerable private discrirarnati j
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in housing?
A If by that you mean thexo were poople that would
ask us or tell us when v/e listed property that it was for sake
to white or colored, yes.
0 Kow, I chow you copies of the Arkansas Gazette which
have been taken •» the pages of which have been taken from
the Sunday Gazette of the first or second Sunday in the month
of Hay for each year beginning in 1954 and going tlirough 196p,
and I ask you if this appears to be an accurate copy of the
kind of advertising that would appear on a typical Sunday in
those years?
THE COURTS You don't have to look at every page.
THE WITNESSs I would say yes, it seems to be a
reproduction of the copy of the want ad3 section.
BY HR. V2YLKERs
Q I would just like to call your attention to the
page numbered 7-C here which you have identified as having
appeared in the Arkansas Gazette on May 3, 1959, and ask if
this also appears to be a typical page and the map which appeal
on this page appears to be a typical map setting out the varh
ions residential areas of the City of Little Rock?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Meeks, I notice the nximber 150 is also given tb
“colored property for rent" and, correspondingly, the nuir.ber
165 is given to the one "colored property for Bale". Do you
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recall that having boon dona?
A The way the want ads are listed, the specific itenu
are under number, but ns far as reading is concerned, I recog
nise that, yes.
Q Are you aware of the fact that in the City of LittJe
Rock, there was no such number on the map here as 150 or 165:
A I think these are specific locations, and what you
number hero is just a general classification.
Q So what those numbers reflect is "colored property
for sale” in the City of Little Rock or wherever it is located
or in the City of Horth Little Rock?
A Yes, and it is also under the general heading of
“white", too.
KRp WALKER* Your J'cnor, I would like this to be
marked as Plaintiffs Exhibit 3. This exhibit purports to bo
rentals and real estate sales listings which appeared in the
Arkansas Gazette for either the first or the second Sunday in
May for these years. The red markings contained thereon iden
tify property for rent or for sale to colored and are numbers
either 150 or 165.
THE COURT? It will be received.
(The documents were marked
Plaintiffs Exhibit Ho. 3 for
identification, and were rcco..
in evidence.)
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BY MR. WALKERS
Q Mr. Meeks, I think Mr. Friday handed you a list of
subdivisions which have been initiated since —
A 1940.
Q — 1940* and another list of subdivisions which
have been started since 1961. I ask you if you are familiar
with most of those subdivisions?
A With many of them, yes.
Q Can you state whether any of those subdivisions ha
been populated predominantly, initially by Negro people?
A Well, I haven't gone through them.
Q You haven't gone through the list?
A There's eight or nine pages, and I just got it.
Q I'm sorry. I thought Mr. Priday gave it to you
earlier.
A In the list that is noted "1961 to 1968", of those
that I am familiar with, there is only one.
q And which i3 that, Mr. Meeks?
A University Park North.
q You say University Park has initially been oopulat
by Negroes?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Meeks, did you know that of your own personal
knowledge?
A I believe 21 have been deeded, a3 far as the deeds
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are concerned, in the last — well, up until tha fir3t part
of tills week,
Q Isn't it true, though, Mr, Meeks, that the initial
resident of University Park was white?
A The first one?
Q Yes,
A I don't know who bought the first lot.
Q And isn't, it true, Mr. Meeks, that at present three
of the six residents in University Park are white?
A I don't know that. The information I have of the
first 31 lots, 29 are Negro.
Q You don't have any other information? From which
source do you have your information?
A The Housing Authority.
Q Do you recall that there was considerable public
debate about the method by which the Housing Authority woulc
dispose of lots in the University Park area?
A There was information in the newspapers to that
effect, yes.
Q And do you recall that Negro citizens protested tlie
Housing Authority’s plan to have the entire block cf land
known as University Park North cold to private real estate
developers?
A I think that was involved in the debate.
Q And do you know also whether the argument made b y
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748
tha persons was that they did not want Urban Renewal to repots
the West Rock experience?
THE COURT: v?e arcs getting into something too far
afield.
KR. WALKER: All right, then.
BY MR. WALKER*
I.
Q So aside from that University Park project, you
recognise all of tho re3t of the projects that have been unds:
taken there --
A Bo, the ones I recognized — that is, the only one
I knew that's bean populated initially by Negroes.
Bo you want m® to go through the list?
Q If you could just scan through it.
THE COURT: How m a n y pages aro there?
THE WITNESS: About six or seven pages.
MR. WALKER* Listed w r y simply. Your Honor.
THE WITNESS* Granite Heights is one.
BY MR. WALKER*
Q That is another Housing Authority project, isn't i:
which is located in the extreme eastern part of the City adj *
cent to ths Granite Mountain School?
A That's correct. In going through, I noticed no
other initially populated by Negro, but I notice a large
number of these are outerde the city limits in the county*
Q But a large number are within tho city limits?
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A That’» right.
RR. WALKER: I would like this introduced as Plain
tiff's Exhibit 4.
TIIE COURT: It will be received.
(The docuiaant was marked Plain
tiff's Exliib.lt Ho. 4 for iden
fication, and was recoived in
evidence.)
BY MR. WALKER*
Q Now, Mr. Meeks, are you familiar with the project
operated by the Housing Authority of the City of Little Rockp
A You mean in the current execution of the —
Q No, the low rent housing projects.
A You have the one at Granite Heights we talked about
one that’s immediately north of the airport, I believe, Ho 11
worth Homes.
Q In Granite Heights, you have both a middle-income
project there, do you not, and also across the street from
there a low rent housing unit —
A That's right.
q — operated by the housing unit?
A That*3 true.
Q And the Little Rock public school operates two
elementary schools within the area, is that right?
A Granite Mountain and Gilliam.
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750
Q Where is tha next project located? You said
Ho 11 ing ev/or th ?
A Hollingsworth Homes, insnediatoly north of the airf
Q And that is in fchQ extreme east and northeastern
part of the School District?
A Yes, sir.
Q And it6a located within several blocks of tha Carv
School?
A That is correct.
Q Do you know of any other projects operated — low
income projects operated by the Little Rock Housing
A Well, Ives Ilemes at 200 East 29th.
Q Would that be in what is known as the Washington
attendance area?
A It*a in the area. I don't know whether that's the
particular attendance area or not*
G But you would know that the Washington Elementary
School is several blocks from the Ives Court, as you call it
A Yes.
Q Would you also know whether the — that is, whethe
tha school and the project were constructed more or less wit;
the same period of time?
A Offhand, I don’t, no, sir.
Q Are there other low rent housing projects operated
by the City of Little Rock?
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751
A You have the project of Went 12th and the project,
I believe on 28th said Battery*
Q On West 12th Street, what would be the school clos
to the West 12th Street project?
A You mean elementary?
Q Yes.
A Either Lee School or Stephens.
Q Either Lee or Stephens? I ask you if you would ccmo
over here, Mr* Meeks, and look at the map a little mere care
fully and tell me whether or not Franklin is closer.
A Franklin and Lee are almost the same distance.
Q So Franklin and Leo are in close proximity to the
project on 12th Street?
A Yes.
Q And that project ha3 been predominantely white sine
its inception, is that right?
A I believe that's true.
Q D o you know whether the City Housing Authority has
recently been the subject of a Federal Law Suit?
A X know by reading in the paper, and so forth.
KR. WALKER: Your Honor, what wo would like to do.
for whatever worth at a later time, have included in the reco
a copy of the complaint and the consent decree in the caeo o£
the United States against the Little Rock Housing Authority.
THE COURTs I don't know about the complaint.
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Complaints are usually extravagantly phrasod. The consent i
752
might be more objective,
MR, WALKER: Your lienor, I think that would 3ave tiros.
It wovild not bo subiaifcted to chow the truth of the allegations
contained therein but only to show that the allegations were,
in fact, made and the consent decree was, in fact, entered.
1T1J3 COURT: You could dictate into the record by stim
ulation or otherwise that the complaint was filed seeking to
do certain things and that shortly thereafter a consent judgment
was entered. I don't want that complaint in it.
MR. WALKERs All right. Your Honor.
Your Honor, I understand that Dr. Barron is here and,
if I may, I would like to interrupt this witness's examination.
THE COURT: All right.
(The witness who was being examined was temporarily
withdrawn from the stand.)
Thereupon,
DR. EDWIN N. BARRON, JR.
having been called as a witness by counsel for defendants, and
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. ROTKNBERKY:
Q Will you state your name and address, please.
A Edwin N. Barron, 1 Wildwood Road, Little Rock.
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753
Q You ara a practicing physician in the city, io that
correct?
A That’s correct*
Q And for hew long have you been engaged in the practic
of medicine here in Little Rock?
A Three and one half years.
q Dr. Barron, you testified earlier in this hearing,
I believe last August, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And you currently occupy the position of president
of the Board of Directors of the Little Rock School District,
is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q And for how long have you served as its president?
A Since March of this year.
Q And for how long have you served as a member of the
Board itself?
A For two and a half years.
Q Subsequent to the recess of this hearing in August,
did the Board consider various alternative, plans or proposals
for the implementation of desegregation plan leading up to the
adoption of the present P la n at a on November 15th?
A That*s correct.
Q And did you individually and personally participate
in the consideration and study of these various alternative
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754
proposals?
A That's correct*
Q I assume that you, of course, considered the plan thi
was approved by the Bo-axrd at its meeting on November 15th, is
that correct?
A Yes,
Q Both with regard to the faculty desegregation plan
and the pup3.1 desegregation plan, which ia based upon geograph
ical attendance zones.
Now, Dr. Barron, how did you vote at the meeting on
November l„>th in connection with the approval of the present
plan?
A Affirmative.
Q Since that time, Doctor, have you given continuing
consideration to the plan?
A Y e s .
Q Do you feel at thi3 time. Doctor, about the plan as
you did on November 15th when you voted for it?
A HO.
Q Would you state what your present feelings are with
regard to the plan?
A Well, the plan, at the time that I voted for it, I
considered it as a plan that would bo legally acceptable to the
Court fx*oax the direction that wo had received as I understood
it. =••
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755
The plan itself, at the time I felt would meet this
obligation and £ felt also that it would be, as an administra
tive plan, a sound plan for operation.
I have sines had more than just second thoughts, but
continuing thoughts ass concerning this plan and concerning the
entire problem that's been facing this school board during the
years X have been on it and the years preceding.
Q Doctor, excuse me, but how would you, if you can,
char actor iso the problem the school board has been facing and
still does?
h The problem that wo have boon facing, as I said in
my own estimation, is a problem to achieve a degree of accept
able integration to both parties concerned. Dy saying “both",
speaking of the extremes at one end and on the other and find
ing something in between that will furnish a solution to the
agonising moments that various people have had.
Q Do I underotcuid —
THE COURT: You interrupted him. Go ahead, Doctor.
THE WITNESS: Tho plan that we have developed, I atiJ
cce it as a good plan from the standpoint of administration.
I do not see it as a good plan for tho implementation of inter •
gration. I think in my own mind, the process I have worked i.;
my own mind in going through this, that wo have taken the enti,
thing of the subject of intergration and put it completely bat
wards. The thing that has been paramount in the press has bcc
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756
whether or not wa should have included gerrymandering, whether
or not wo should have gone to strip zoning and all the considerj
fcion has been at our high school level, which is really begin
ning, in my estimation, completely backward.
Dr. Goldhaxamer testified in the first part of this
trial that there wore five areas that the public school ayaten
Ghouid be paramount in responsibility for in the education of
a child. He listed of these five, the first one he mentioned,
was the preparation of giving of the tools of knowledge to the
children? number two, social acceptability? three, to become
economically productive? number four, to help generate self
esteem? and number five, and he said this was debatable, was
that of moral responsibility as being taught by the actions of
tho teacher with regard to the student. And Kr. Walker and
Dr. Goldhassaer both stated that tho one involved here is the
self esteem of the child, in a non-intergrated situation that
there is less self esteem and because of this, the child suffer
and we are failing to meet that responsibility. I agree entire
that this is true.
I think because of this that we should consider, and
I have read during the last few months several reports about
development of self esteem, and one of them is Dr. Stanley
Coppersmith in his "Antecedence of Self Esteem • He states
in this 600-plus page book that self esteem, by and large, is
developed prior even to beginning school. Self esteem is
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d e v e l o p e d before ago six. It begins at ago six months, and
that by age sue, by and large, self esteem is developed.
I began to wonder what we*ro talking about in this
trial, if ws'ro talking about meaningful intergraticn, not juet
mixing by numbers, then this would mean something in which the
self esteem of each individual would not be threatened but
would be helped. I think the School Board, in its action at
our last School Board meeting, made a very significant step in
adopting to study a report by the University of Arkansas for
three, four and five year old children.
Dr» Goldhanuaer, in bringing out these five points,
left out in lay own estimation something that is very important.
We don’t knew when we are dealing with children. We say we've
got 25,000 children, we have 1400 first graders in one area,
and so many hundred in another area. When we talk about the
children we have been using, at the School Board meetings and
it seems to me in this trial, just numbers; but in talking abou
children, wc don't knew by the time the child starts the first
grade at age six how many times the children — * hew many tines
the child has been beaten by his parents, we don't know the
degree of self estosm that he has, we don't know how many times
he has had his head banged on the floor when his diaper was
being changed. These are all imponderables, but we do knew
that if we arc going to take the responsibility in this area,
which I think we should, that wo should begin at age three, at
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age four, age five, and not only teach the five cardinal thine 3
or paramount things as Br„ Goldhainnier referred to them, but
let's do sok;q things that are positive in the standpoint of
undoing.
Let's undo and take away th© things that have threat -
cned fcho self esteem of the child. According to Mr. Stanley
Coppersmith of University of California, by the time you read
age fourteen or ago fifteen or sixteen, almost total self cstc e
is developed.
I still do not see nor do I think it is even importer
about the gerrymandering of a few students at Hall High School
or any other school. We have started at the wrong end. The
self esteem is developed. The purpose of intergration has
already failed by the time you reach this age.
It*s been pointed out, and X believe by Dr. Ericksor ,
that when you. reach this age that even though you include a
70-30 per cent balance, that the children at this age are goii c
to go ahead and re-segregate themselves not only in the ethnic
but socio-economic groups and in attainment of education. By
tills, I mean education in the way of substance of knowledge.
The children that are brighter will stick together,
and the children that are dull will stick together, so I third*
that all of us have been suffering from tunnel vision when we
have looked at just what it is that's wrong.
We have said that the school system should racially
too
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balance. This nay bo true. We have said that the plan is a
bad plan. I have said that the plan is a bad plan except as
an administrative plan. I'm not sure this is true but I think
tliis is true. What we seen to mo to be doing is saying that
in Little Rock, not only in Little Rock but the entire nation,
that all of us here have the entire country on trial, not just
the Little Rock Public School system but the entire country as
it comprises our society, the same society that haa developed
a school system that by, no means, could be considered to be
optimal«
We are operating a school system on a nine month a
years. This is bad. We are operating a school system, public
grades, number 1 through 12. Whore did that arbitrary number
come from? We arc operating a school system ages six through
eighteen. Where did tills come from? Should we continue in
the top level posts in our school system to have people who
are primarily educators and administrators or should we have
£>sychologists and sociologists in equal top posts?
The same society that has created this school ryeteni
that in many ways can be considered a mess fresa the standpoint
of economics and optimal educational opportunity has also crea
the judicial branch and the Court we are sitting in right now.
The reason 1 develop this is because the problem that has con
tinued to come to me, and still continues to come to me, is tl
problem of what is the role of the School Board member, and I
759
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have undergone constant introspective evaluation to try to
find out Juet what my role might be. I Know what I would persL
ally prefer. I would personally sympathize with the people who
are intervenors. I would like to have my children go into an
intcrgrated situation, so they would not grow up with the same
fears that I have. I would like for them to bo free of fear,
hut at the SdttiQ time, X*ki not sure of what my responsibility
is.
it seems to m® that \:q are asking, you are asking and
perhaps all of us are asking, ths public school systems to
correct what is a social injustice, we have people, as you lo<t
at this map and has been brought out in the first part of this
trial and as X have read in the first part, wc see Negroes liv->
ing in one section and whites in another section, whites of an
upx>er middle income living in one area and we see whites of a
lower income living in another area.
If you have the Negroes and the whites in a community
separated because of economic deprivation, because of the preju
dice of people that hired them for jobs, because they are con
sidered second rate citizens by many or most pe ople that deal
with them, this is a social injustice? and the pattern we have
is a social injustice, but that is the way the school was deve
oped as a neighborhood school system.
760
It seems to me wo are asking the school system, if
we are asking the school system, to racially balance to take
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on what I have personal} y thought of as a judicial function.
If the school system is going to say we're going to racially
balance, from what I can read and from the testimony that I ha
read from tha trial, X think that's equivocal whether or not
it's found to racially balance. But if the school system is t
do this, we are saving the school system is to undo a social
injustice that has occurred because cf the development of our
entire society, and Iha speaking not just of this city.
I don't know if this is my purpose aa a School Board
member. If I could once ascertain in my mind this ie so, I
would have no hesitation .in using whatever means necessary to
achieve that balance, but X have searched and searched and I
cannot corns up with an answer as to whether or not a school
board should assume what I consider to be judicial responsible
ity in correcting what has boon a terrible social injustice.
I don't know tha answers. I don’t know how you devc
a plan for something liko that. I think that, as I mentioned,
the study that has been adopted at the last school board meet"
ing is a beginning. X wish we could get away from the concept
of trying to play with numbers at a secondary level. I'm not
saying that it's incorrect and that it is not desirable, but
I wish wo would start where we could start and erase the thine
in tha children's minds that are already there by the time <~hc.
are fourteen.
BY MR. RQTE23BERRY:
761
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q Dr a Barron, would you agree that if the school ay a tea
has played a part in and contributed to those social injuaticeu
to which you refer, that it. would then be an obligation of the
school board to correct the effoccu of these past injustices?
A Inasmuch as the responsibility cf the school board
would lie in this area, I would say yes, very definitely b o .
I know that prior to the initial decision by tire Supremo Court
that we did adopt a a one system, yot we had dual zones, school u
for Hagrcss to attend and soncs for whites* This was on in jus ■
t iC € 3 *
Q You do feel the school system did contribute to eoine
of tire injustices to which you referred?
h 1 don't know how to tacasuro this, but I would think
thttt this is correct.
Q Xxi your estimation, will the plan that you see there
on the board. Defendant's Exhibit 22, will it eliminate the
effects of past racial discrimination in the school system?
A In my own opinion, no.
Q will it eliminate racially identifiable schools?
A Prom the standpoint of faculty, this would be true,
but as was pointed out in the first part of the trial, there
are several schools named for Hegroos leaders. J. oon t know t
short of changing the name of the school, you could remove the
identity.
Excluding the name of the school for a moment and
762
Q
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----------- 7 T T —
referring only ,to the pupil plan rather than to the faculty
plan# do you believe that the pupil desegregation plan will
eliminate racially identifiable schools?
A It may help, but it is not a solution and I will
repeat that# as X stated before# I believe the plan we have
adopted is a sound administrative plan. I think again the an-
swor to this, and if it is the Court's to tell us, I would wel
come the Court to tell ua what ia the responsibility of a echo5
board member. If it is balancing, then I vvi3h we knew. If we
are to overcome social injustice, as you pointed put, if this
is our responsibility as well a3 the education of the children,
then this is what wo should do.
Dr. Goldhammor, again referring to the first part of
the trial, prior to outlining the five areas paramount# stated
the primary purpose of a public school system is to provide an
excellent education inasmuch as can bo done. Now, is this otha
a primary responsibility? Again, I do not know.
Q Dr. Barron, is it fair to assume from your testimony
that if you had to vote for this plan again, that you would
not vote for it?
A I find it difficult to answer that yes or no. As a
plan for administration# yes; as a plan for achieving what I'm
not sure what we are supposed to achieve, and from what X have
outlined to you, no, X would not.
Q As a desegregation plan, no, other than the adainistc
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764
tivo aspects of it, is that correct?
A As a desegregation plan, I would say no, because in
my mind, I cannot resolve it as a desegregation plan from a
pupils standpoint.
q Dr. Barron, there®s been considerable testimony in
evidence in this case that one of the obstacles in the path of
the school district’s ability to implement a plan which would
go a greater way forward in eliminating racially identifiable
schools is money. VJould you agree with that?
A I would prefer you be more specific in what you mean
by money.
Q The financial capacity or ability of the School Dis
trict to implement other alternative plans.
A We'ra talking about an area from $10 million outlined
in the Oregon Report to conflicting testimony of two hundred
to five hundred thousand for transportation, as was outlined
earlier.
Q Let me try to simplify my question. Was there discut
sion in your consideration of other plans of cost factors?
A Yes.
Q And did this discussion — was the consensus of Borne
of this discussion that it would cost money beyond what the
School District presently has to implement something other thar
a geographical zoning plan?
A Some of the plans proposed would require raore money.
765
The simple gerrymandering would not have required, as we dis
c u s s e d it, any financing* The atrip zoning, as outlined in
the Parsons Plan .in the formation of the Alpha and Beta Completes,
c o u ld partially have been done without an increase in money.
q In that connection, the Beta Complex, about which
there ha® been some testimony, you are familiar with the Beta
Complex as outlined in Mr. Parsons* Plan, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Did I understand you to say that it would not cost
a great additional amount of money to implement the Beta Compile?
A Without the provision of transportation or some of
the other provisions outlined, it would not have cost a lot of
money for that one thing. I cannot testify as to what Federal
funds would do to this, in light of what has happened in Littl
Rock the last few weeks.
Q The Beta Complex, in your understanding, would havo
made use of all existing facilities?
A That's correct.
Q With possible expenditures for renovation or repair
of some of the facilities in the complex?
A That's correct.
Q Dr. Barron, assuming the financial ability or capac
of the School District to implement a plan which would, in £a<
eliminate schools identifiable by race, do you feel that this
Board could formulate policy within which Superintendent Pars
ityV.
ct,
onJ
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and his staff could develop a plan to accomplish thi3?
■firs COURT * I dorft understand that question.
ITS WITNESS: I don't either.
b y k r . r o t e k b e r r y*
Q Given the financial capacity of the District —
TFXE COURT? You mean given additional finances or
the present?
ROTE23BERRY: Given additional finances.
BY HR. ROTEKBSRRY:
Q Assuming that money was not a problem ~
THE COURT; The answer to that question is ye3, of
course.
THE WXTKBSS* Yea, I will agree with that.
KR. ROTEHBERRY* Nothing further.
TKE COURT: Let's take a short recess.
(A short recess was taken.)
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY*
Q Doctor, would you describe your task as a Board
member as a.n agonising, time consuming task in trying to do the
right thing?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is that a fair description?
A Yes, sir, that's a fair description.
Q would you say that that has been a typical situation
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of the Board members that have been your associates while you
have served on the Board?
A I^d £&y that in this, v?e have all discussed this mat :e
We have discussed it privately among ourselves, we have discus -e
it in open Board meetings, we have discussed it socially, vo
have discussed it in standing around the administrative office3,
not in session.
It seems to me that everyone on the Board is giving
this a great deal of consideration*
Q Doctor, since good faith, come way or another, gets
to be an issue in these matters, would you state to the Court
whether you and the other Board members have exercised good
faith in trying to solve these problems and in the decision
pertaining to it that you have made?
A I think that I have. I'm not certain. I have tried
not to let my own prejudices and hatred enter into this deci
sion concerning any School Board matter. I think I have, but
I cant be 100 per cent certain.
Q You have done a lot of scxil—searching about it, have.,
you. Doctor?
h Yes, sir.
Q You couldn't ask for any more.
Doctor, let's go to the issue that was before you on
iiovsmber 15th, and I suppose* la before everyone in the Court,
now, and that is the available, feasible alternatives for 1969.
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Would it hs fair to say that you predicated your vole
on November 13th ois the basis that this plan which ia depicted
on Defendant's Exhibit 22 was the only available, feasible
alternative for 1963?
h I would limit in my own understanding the use o£ the?
two objectives that are there* available and feasible.
Q Doctor, you make any explanation you care to.
THE COURTS And please speak a little louder. Doctor.
TEH WITNESS s As relating to the two adjectives that
you precede this with, available and feasible, available, as
I understood v/hat the directive was of this Court, available
from the standpoint of economics, feasible encompassing the
firct thing brought cut in the Oregon Report, that any plan has
to have the cooperation of the community, again I say I think
so. I'm not certain.
BY KR. FRIDAYS
Q well, I won't ask you for more. Doctor. Just one
other question.
Mr. Rotsnberry questioned you about the Beta Complex.
You are not recommending the incorporation of the Seta Complex
concept into the plan that you voted on on November 15, 1966,
are you, Doctor?
A X would not l>e prepared to make that recommendation.
I haven't even considered it in a plan like this, and I don't
know how this would work in isolation from the rest of the
768
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769
treport.preporcd by Mr. Parsons.
MR. FRIDAY: That's all.
Ml. R0TEMB2RRY: Qns further question on redirect,
Your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
by MR. ROTENEERRY s
Q Dr. Barron, again with reference to the Beta Complex
that involves the concept of pairing of schools in order to
bring about an acceptable degree of desegregation —
A That's correct.
Q Do you feel that the pairing concept is a feasible
and workable device, one of several by which to accomplish an
acceptable degree cf desegregation?
A I don't know. I refer back again — and I am honestb
not trying to be a bit evasive in my answer — I just simply
don’t know because, again, I don't fully at this time — maybe
tomorrow or ten minutes from now — at this time I don't fully
know whether or not the incorporation cf numbers for correcting
a social injustice is a part of the function of the Board.
Prom the standpoint of providing a degree of intsr-
gr fit ion, this is a feasible thing. From the standpoint of
what I find is personally desirable to toe for my own children
to be in an intergrated situation, I would consider it as a
feasible thing and a desirable thing.
As a School Board member and discharging my responai-
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biliti©3, I'ra just not sure,
Q Well, on paper, Doctor, —
THE COURT: Don't think you have covered that adequately
and the doctor has been very frank with you about it?
MR. R0TEK3ERRY: All right, Your Honor•
by h r . r o t e k b e r r y *
Q Dr. Barron, do you have an opinion respecting whether
or not this conraimifcy, the voters within this School District
within the immediate future, would ever support at the polls
a desegregation plan which would achiei'e racial balance within
the schools? Do you have an opinion?
TEE COURT: Are you talking about money or voting on
intergration?
MR. ROTEJSBEllRY: Well, both. Your Honor. As I undert-
stand it —
THE COURT: Well, wo all know the question of inter-
gratic-n or segregation is an issue that is not determined by
public vote. We all knew that.
If you're talking about money, the voter© have it
within their power to give or deny to the School Board money.
MR. R0TEH3ERRY: All right, I will rephrase ray question
BY MR. ROTEKBERRY:
Q Doctor, do you have an opinion respecting whether or
not the voters within tha School District would vote in fav^r
of a bond issue or an increase in millage to provide the money
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to implement a pi tin by v/hich racial balance within the schools
night be achieved?
A Would you phrase that just once more? I'm sorry*
q Have you, in your consideration of the prcbl&ai as
president o£ the Board and a3 h member of the Board, developed
an opinion as to whether or not the voters within the School
District would vote the School Board money to put in a plan
which would accomplish racial balance in the schools?
A It would depend o n the plan. It would depend on
whether or not the Court had clearly outlined that this was a
responsibility of the school system. It would depend on wheth< r
or not the Board itself could be unified in producing the leader
ship for thiso It would depend on complete cocporation.
Under all of these circumstances, taking them ideally,
theoretically, it would be possible. Prom a practical standpo:nt.
X don't think that a plan such as the Oregon Plan or the Parsons
Plan or a plan that would bo based primarily on this type of a
plan would at this very moment acceptable.
THE COURTi Doctor, you have answered his question.
MR. ROTEHBERRYt I appreciate the difficulty of the
question. Doctor, and I appreciate the answer.
THE COURT: You may step down.
(Witness excused.)
MR. WALKER: Hay I finish with Hr. Meeks?
Thereupon,
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772
WILLIAM R. MEEKS, JR.
Laving previously been called as a witness and having previous 1:
been sworn, was recalled, and was examined and testified fur
ther am follows* t
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Recalled
m KR. WALKER*
Q You are familiar with the Model Cities Program of the
City of Little Rock cr at least the application of the City of
Little Rock?
A I know that an application has been made, ye is.
Q I ses. Do you knew what the area is that that Model
Cities Program application purports to deal with?
A X will say in general it's generally east of Main
Street and north, say, of 14th Street.
G And would that area be predominantly Hegro in terms
of the racial characteristics of the neighborhood?
A i think so. There is a considerable amount of white
residential area, but it is predominantly Kegro, I oelieve.
Q All right.
HR. WALKER: Your Honor, I would like to have intro
duced, not the full Model Cities Program application that was
prepared by the City of Little Rock, but excerpts from that.
I have given a copy to Mr. Friday and it sets forth the desen
tion and the identification of the kinds of neighborhood that
it is, and the kind of characteristics of the schools and othc
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773
g e n e r a l information that t h e C i t y h a s r e p r e s e n t e d t o t h e G o v e r i-
wstit in sujjport of i t s a p p l i c a t i o n f o r t h e M o d a l C i t i o o P r o g r a n .
K R . FRIDAY: Your Honor, I a m n o t c l e a r o n t h e exact,
issue* For t h e record, i t w a s h a n d e d t o m e s e c o n d s ago. I
have not sec.a it. I a m a w a r e t h a t c i t i e s a r e p r o n e t o d o a
little selling in t h e s e a p p l i c a t i o n s . I ' a n o t p r o n e t o k e e p
things out of t h e r e c o r d , I just d o n ' t k n o w .
W h a t i s s u e a r e y o u t r y i n g t o s h o w ?
ml. WALKERx I a m t r y i n g t o s h o w t h e r e a r e c o n c e n t r a
t i o n s o f l o w e r s o c i o - e c o n o m i c a r e a s t h a t t h e c i t y i t s e l f h a s
r e c o g n i s e d a n d s o u g h t t o a t t a c k t h r o u g h a c o m p r e h e n s i v e p r o g r a m
t h r o u g h g o v e r n m e n t a l a g e n c i e s in t r y i n g t o m e e t t h e p r o b l e m s ,
s u c h a s t h e H o u s i n g A u t h o r i t y a n d t h e C i t y E d u c a t i o n B o a r d *
T H E C O U R T s W e h a v e t o h a v e s o m e k i n d o f l i m i t s .in
t h e s e c a s e s * T h a t ' s t o o f a x a f i e l d .
HR. W A L K E R ! T h e p e r t i n e n t s e c t i o n I w a n t t o h a v e is
t h e i r d e s c r i p t i o n o f c e r t a i n d i f f i c u l t i e s in t h e s c h o o l s w i t h ! i
t h e a r e a .
T H E C O U R T : L e t M r . F r i d a y h a v e a c h a n c e t o r e a d it
a n d t h e n vie c a n r u l e o n i t l a t e r . I w i l l r e s e r v e r u l i n g .
M R . W A L K E R : A l l r i g h t , Y o u r H o n o r . I w o u l d l i k e
Y o u r H o n o r t o h a v e a c o p y .
T H E C O U R T : L e t ' s g i v e it a n u m b e r .
M R . W A L K E R : T h i s w o u l d b e P l a i n t i f f ’s E x h i b i t L o . >
f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n .
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----------) m ■
(The document heretofore referra
to was marked Plaintiff's Exhib
Ho. 5 for identification.)
THE COURT: V?a want to move a little faster, now, Mr
Walker. This case has been fully developed, and I think w e arp
ranging far afield on it.
MR. WALKER* All right, Your Honor.
BY MR. WALKER*
Q Mr. Meeks, just one or two other questions about the
matter of private discrimination. Are you aware of the fact
that when a Megro family moved into the Broadmoor Subdivision,
Which is west of University, there was considerable opposition
to that move?
A I couldn't classify it as community opposition. I
know there was discussion about it.
Q Do you recall there was a bottle or something thrown
through the window of the heme?
THE COURT: That is enough of that.
MR. WALKER* Your Honor, I am trying to —
THE COURT: That is enough of that. We are trying t
talk about school integration here.
MR. WALKERJ Your Honor, I think we want to have
stated for the record that we believe that private discrimina
tion exists in the City of Little Rock, that the School Distri
has been fully aware of these facts, and that it has an affirn
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775
tive obligation to taka them into consideration and to dis
establish school patterns which result in them.
S H E C O U R T ; A r e you through with this witness?
iiRe FRIDAY: Yes, with just two or three questions.
Your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr. Meeks.. l have handed you a document marked at
the top "Cons us Tract, Little Rock-North Little Rock SI’S A1'
marked for identification as Defendants Exhibit 29, and ask
you if you can tell me what that is, please, sir?
A It's a diagnosis of the greater Little Rock area
drawn by the Census Bureau, and the mnp they used in taking
the census.
Q Does it show — do the additional pages show the
racial composition of the various area designated on this trac-
A Yes, sir, it does.
MR. FRIDAY? Your Honor, I offer this just so the
record will be complete as Defendant's Exhibit 29.
THE COURTS What significance docs it have?
MR. FRIDAY; Your Honor, it relates to identify eact
area as to the official census records in '60 and '64 of the
racial composition. It can be used fcr two or three purposes.
It largely duplicates the exact figures on populatic
but deals in population rather than students, and you can rel-
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770
to the voting, for example, on the Parse ns Plan and tell how
each area voted on it. Ho other real purposo. Your Honor. It
just gets the figures in on it.
TLb COURTi All right, it will bo received.
(Tho document heretofore referro 1
to was marked Defendant's ExhibL
Ho. 29 for identification, and
was received in evidence.)
BY KR. FRIDAY t
0 Mr. Keeks, there was testimony earlier concerning
construction since 1961 and perhaps testified from memory, and
since it is in the record, in an effort to get dates correct,
have you at my request had the School Board Office work up a
chart showing school sites purchased and schools built since
1961, so that wo have exact dates?
A Yes, sir, along with class size and the members of
the Board of Directors at tho time the cites were purchased.
Q All right. I will hand you this chart, and its mark*
for identification as Defendant's Exhibit 30.
A Yes, six.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I offer this as Defendant's
E x h i b i t 30.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(The document heretofore referred
to was marked Defendant's Exhibi
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777
No. 30 for identification, and
v/as received in evidence.)
BY HR. FRIDAY:
Q Just two or three more questions, Mr. Hecks, about
the newspaper ad situation.
Do you know the source of tho handling of newspaper
iz d .s? If you do k n e w , cay so; and if you don’t, a3 depicted on
tho exhibits introduced by Mr. Walker —
A Do you roean who put them in?
Q Do you know how they came to have that type listing?
Did tho newspaper do it, or did you do it, or the person who
turned it in?
A The individual listing or the names under which indi /:
ual was listed was carried by the newspaper.
Q Well, did the newspaper decide how it would be listed
or did the person that turned it in say “I want you to list it
so. and so for such a heading"?
A Tho person that turned it in specified under which
heading the ad would go.
Q Would that be for commercial purposes, do you know?
A 2fc could have been.
Q Do ycu know whether all property turned in that happ~
to bo owned by a Negro was always listed under Negro? Do you
know if this is so cr not?
A I’m not sure it was — * I'm sure it was not always
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listed that way.
Q All right. Based on your experience in the real
estate business. Hr* Keeks, has the population in Little Rock
been mobile, highly mobile or fairly mobile?
A I think the population of Little Rock is fairly cobi. Lc
Hie Oregon Report, I believe on page 39, indicates that betwee i
1955 and 1960, roughly 25 par cent of the white population did
not live in that house in 1955 that lived in it in 1960 and
about eleven per cent of the non-v/hito population did not live
in the same in *60 that it did in *55.
Q Not to repeat but for the record, have there been an {
significant developments that might affect school population
insofar as trends are concerned, and specifically I refer to
the patterns of construction, apartments and so forth?
A well, I think there have been in two directions. Thi
increased population within the metropolitan area of the City
of Little Rock hasn't been discussed, and I think it has a ver (
definite bearing on the whole situation. For instance, in 194 3
the District had 13,000 students in some twenty-seven schools.
At this time we have a ora a 25,000 students in 44 schools. Ob
viously, with the increase in population, they could not alJ
go to those schools that were in existence in 1948 when Jnivor. *
sity cr South Hayes were gravel streets, lb® schools that are
t?ect of University, of course, have been built since 1948, buv.
with the increase in population, people had to live somewhere.
773
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779
a n d they couldn't all build in what wo liave specif led or what
has been specified hero a3 the central Little Rock area* There
has been to some extent what I think is a misunderstanding as
to what is considered the central area. The center of tha
Little Rock School District, both geographically and population
wise is Markham and Elm Streets, approximately near the Medical
Center.
Q well, ha\*e there been any significant developments - —
and I believe you have covered University Park so don’t repeal
that — in the west end that might affect population that would
affect school attendance insofar as intorgration is concerned;
A Yes, I think the coming installation of tha trunk
lino sewer out in the southwest part of Little Rock west of
the existing John Barrow Addition, that would probably be a
rapidly developing area of the City of Little Rock.
Q would it be a racially mixed neighborhood?
A Yes. At least if existing trends continue. The idoi
of inter grated housing in Little Rock is not something that in
going to be done one here and one there. It will be, as ic
has been heretofore, that where the areas whore Negroes do
move into expand, for instance, in the area around Stephens
School find immediately east of tha Med Center, those areas
have continued to build up, a© has John Barrow.
Q John Barrow is in the Parkview Zone, there is Unive.
oity Park?
7 CO
A In Hall High School &one.
MR* FRIDAY* That's all I have.
No more questions, Mr* Keeks.
1522 COURT: You may ctcp down.
(Witness excused•)
MR® WALKER: Mr* Patterson*
Thereupon,
T. E. PATTERSON
having been called as a witness by counsel for plaintiffs and
having been first duly sworn, examined and testified as follow u
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY HR. WALKERi
Q You are Mr® T. E. Patterson, a member of the Eoard
of Directors of the Little Rock School District, ia that right >
A Yos, sir, that’s right.
Q Mr. Patterson, did you vote for the present assign
ment plan, which is Exhibit 22?
A Ho, I did not.
Q Would you state your reasons why you did not, Mr.
Patterson?
THE COURT: Please speak louder, fir. Patterson.
THE WITNESS: Well, I will give you some of ray reasons
First, I think the plan so developed was not develop1 xi
in harmony with the policy that the School Board directed the
plan to be made in that the administration was directed to come
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7G1
up with a plan# which it did, and this plan wao developed, not
on the initiative of the school administration but several of
the school board members directed the adiainistrat.ion to devolo .<
a plan strictly with residential zoning. Of course, they zoned
out the little gerrymandering in the previous plan to eliminate
substantial intorgration of K&ll High School and a little gerr
wandering here that took away soma of the students from Centra .
High School* I feel that gerrymandering for segregation is
just about as permicsahlo as gerrymandering for in ter gr at ion,
so I couldn't buy the philosophy of strict residential coning
that eliminated Negroes in the Hall High area.
Q Fur. Patterson, do you have a view a3 to whether this
particular ’could contribute to the neighborhood stability of
the coixsaunitiea in the eastern and the central Little Rock —
let me tell you specifically what I have in mind. The situatioi
with regard to Mitchell School, for instance, do you think tha:
this kind of integration plan will contribute to tho neighbor
hood stability?
A Bo.
Q Hew does the plan which has been proposed difror fro i
the plan that has actually been followed with regard to the
area around Mitchell School?
THE COURT: I don’t understand that question.
TUB WITNESS: I don’t think I can answer it.
BY MR. WALKERS
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Q
7G2
bet ma make x t let we put it in a different form.
Has tho Board discussed the fact that as white pup lit
jroatcli a csrtam porce»vLcijo of the population in a given school
that a tilt point develops and white pupils tend to find ways
to get out of that school?
A Not in that context.
Q The Board has not actually discussed tills?
A Ho.
Q With regard to Parkview School, Hr. Patterson, were
you o n the Board when the decision was made to construct that
school?
A Yes.
Q Was that school initially conceived as a high school^
A I'll have to say yes to that. Initially conceived.
that would be somebody's thlinking.
Q I seoc, Has the Board * what was the Board's action
with regal'd to whether or not it would be a high school?
A The Board decided it would be just a school.
Q Just a school, so that no particular decision was
Eiade to cause it to bo a high school at the time the contract
was let?
A Bo.
Q With regard to the University Park area, Mr. Pattern
I think you have purchased a lot in that area?
A Yes
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r
Q What — do you know presently what the racial corap os L'
tion cf families who now live in that area is?
A I — wall, I think at this point about fifty-fifty,
but wo havo to admit there* is continuous building.
Q Do y o u knew whether there are any other — would you
know Aether there are any mere them s.b: families living there
present?
A The last time I wae out there, I don't think it was.
Q What do you know about tiia economic ability of Negron
I mean from what you to;g w of economic ability of Negroes in th >
City o f . Little Rock, would you say that it would h a likely tha:
large numbers of Negroes will purchase lots in the subdivision
known as University Park?
A KOo
Q What is the minimum price of a lot in that subdivi
sion, to your knowledge?
A $13200, I think.
Q Would the same be true of other subdivisions went of
University Avenue, to your knowledge, that is, wouxd Negroes
be in much the same situation with regard to their economic
ability to purchase lots which are in the western paru of the;
City?
A Yes.
Q One final question, Mr. Patterson. Do you know whetc
or not largo numbers of pupils are transported to school each
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day in tho City of kittle. Rock, either by public transportation
cr by private transportation?
THE COURT ? You mean by city bus or car pools?
S Y »5R. K&LKERj
Q By city bus cr car pools?
A Oh, yes. Yes. *•
MR. WALKER* Ho more questions.
CROSS EXA&XHATZOH
BY MR. LIGHT t
Q Mr. Patterson, did I correctly understand that you
supported Mr. Parsons' proposal or ideas that*a boon described
here submitted by the Board members on October 10th, which
included corn© gerrymandering to bring approximately eighty
additional Negro students into Hall High School?
A That's right.
Q And I believe you seconded the motion Mr. Drummond
loads to adopt that at the meeting on November 15th.
A That®s right.
Q The financial resources — and I won't go into this
in detail *— the financial resources of the Little Rock School
District are rather limited with regard to the operating funds
available this year, are they not — let me withdraw that
question. That was an awkwardly framed question.
Tho testimony has been given here that we are operai.
ing off of last year's income, in that sort of situation, and
784
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I be lie vo 'there is budgeted only a $40,000 surplus this year.
is tliat correct?
A That’s right.
Q Within the framework of the existing financial resou r<
of the District, arc you in agreement and have you been since
you considered this matter since August, last August, been in
agreement that the District is limited to a geographic zoning
system with regard to any plan it would present to comply with
the Court’s order, one that does not provide transportation
for students?
A No, I’m not.
Q I will ask you if the District has available any fun!
to provide a large-scale transportation system at this time?
A When you say "funds", there are some wo have and soma
we can get. If you take them' collectively, it will be ono thi^
i
But my reason is that the system provided transportation out
of its operation funds for segregation. When integration
started, they cut it all out voluntarily. I feel they are oblL
gated to put bade the same money.
Q The transportation that the District provided in the
past was on a limited scale, was it not, compared to any scab-
that would be directed to achieve racial balance in the school a
A I have heard only one proposal and that, of course,
was in the Oregon Report, which was a largo amount.
785
Q Right
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A
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I think in cho Parsons Plan, it started at a minimum
amount not exceeding the minimum amount already put in trans
portation*
q liow m u c h w o u l d h a v e boon put into transportation?
A I think it w a s 47 thousand — I Jumped the gun# I
thought you ware going to say Mr. Parsons' plan.
Q I have reference to when it was employed, last provide
by the District# Do you know?
A I think $50,000,
Q Do you know hoi-/ many students were transported?
A Ho, I wasn't on the Board at the time.
Q Do you really know this, or do you have this from
your recollection of tilings you have heard?
A Well, .I'm going — 2 once saw in the budget before
where it was in. the neighborhood of this amount.
MR* LIGHT* Thank you.
THE COURT: You may step down.
(Witness excused.
MR. WALKER* Your Honor, I had hoped through Mrs.
Spradlin, who had some function in the matter of keeping up
with pupil personnel figures, to prove or at least to chow th3t
the City bus system passes out to the city School District
approximately 21,000 identification cards each year or some
number, and that these I.D. cards enable pupils in the. Little
Rock school system who have them to get cut-rate prices when
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787
th ey u se th e husaa, and we wanted to show fu rth er th at the C ity
Sch ool D i s t r i c t has money a v a ila b le which i t uses p re se n tly to
qualify then fo r Public Law 89 -10 funds and th a t , in f a c t , a
la r g e number o f p u p ils who attend sch ools in the ta rg e t area
are in f a c t bused to sch ool w ith money provided by th® L i t t l e
Rock Sch ool D is t r ic t ,,
S in ce M rs. Spradlin i s not here — I thought she
would s t i l l be here — I would l ik e to ask th at the Court g ive
mo an o p p o rtu n ity t o , in ten m inutes, when Dr* Goldhawmer ajppe i
to p r e s e n t t h i s evidence*
THE COURT: We have n ot ta lked y e t about Dr* Goldhar* a
HR. WALKERS Y e s , Your Honor. What I 'm sayin g ia
th a t we would l i k e to re serv e the r ig h t to have th a t evidence
p u t in when i t i s a v a ila b le under the assumption th a t i t w i l l
ba a v a i la b le reason ably soon.
THE COURT * W e ll, we w i l l ta lk about th a t la t e r .
HR. WALKER* I would l ik e to c a l l Mr. Parsons back
t o s e t o u t and e x p la in some fig u re s which appear in the Parson ■
P la n , w hich s e t s o u t money over and above c e r ta in bond issu e s
w hich rem ain unexpended.
THE COURT* What rep ort i s th a t?
HR. WALKER: T h a t 's the Parsons P lan, h is re p o r t , Yo<
H onor.
THE COURT* You mean t h is document?
That i s th e Oregon Report, I th in k , Yo'jMR. WALKER *
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788
Honor.
n i E C O U R T : No, t h i s is th e P a r s o n s P l a n .
C o n e a r o u n d , M r . P a r s o n s , a n d w e w i l l s e e h o w w o are
g o i n g . W e a x e g o i n g t o q u i t p r e t t y s o o n a n d w e w i l l b o p r e t t y
w e l l t h r o u g h w i t h it.
H e d o e s n ' t h a v e a c o p y o f h i s r e p o r t , M r . W a l k e r .
T h e r e u p o n ,
F L O Y D W. P A R S O N S
h a v i n g p r e v i o u s l y b o o n c a l l e d as
b e e n d u l y s w o r n , w a s r e c a l l e d a n d
f u r t h e r a s f o l l o w s :
a w i t n e s s a n d h a v i n g p r e v i o u s J
w a s e x a m i n e d a n d t e s t i f i e d
^ C R G S B E X A M I N A T I O N - R e c a l l e d
B Y M R . W A L K E R s
Q M r . P a r s o n s , I w i l l s h a r e t h i s c o p y w i t h y o u .
M r . P a r s o n s , i s n ' t it t r u e t h a t a t p r e s e n t a l a r g e
n u m b e r o f p u p i l s , t o y o u r k n o w l e d g e , a l a r g e n u m b e r o f p u p i l s
g e t t o a n d f r o m t h e v a r i o u s s c h o o l s in t h e L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l
D i s t r i c t b y p u b l i c t r a n s p o r t a t i o n p r o v i d e d a t t h e i r o w n e x p e n s
A I w o u l d a s s u m e this, b u t I d o n o t k n o w it.
Q Y o u w o u l d a s s u m e t h a t ?
A Y e s .
Q I s n ' t i t t r u e t h a t t h e r e a r e a l a r g e n u m b e r o f p e r s e
w h o c o n t r a c t w i t h t h e H o u s t o n — B i g e l c w a n d T w i n - C i t y T r a n s i t
C o m p a n y t o p r o v i d e b u s t r a n s p o r t a t i o n f o r t h e i r p u p i l s t o v a r i
s c h o o l s i n t h e C i t y ?
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A I am actually not aware of this occurring. There
is little doubt that it does, but when you say a "large number-',
I &o not Know whether we are talking about thirty people or
500.
789
Q Isn’t it true that largo numbers of pupils who live
in the western part of the City, a good distance from schools,
provide their own transportation to those schools?
A I think there is no doubt but what this is true, yes
Q What I'm trying to establish is that not very many
pupils now walk to McDermott School, which is on Reservoir Roa2
A I really do not know.
Q In which area do you live?
A I live in Leawood Heights.
Q Close to Brady?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether very many youngsters actually
walk to Brady, or are they transported by their parents?
A I actually do not know this.
Q Who on your staff would know that, Mr. Parsons?
A I'm not sure that anyone at the administrative leva!
would know for sura. The principals would know.
Let me explain that I see cars every day on the strea
with children in them, and there is no doubt that these are
parents talcing the children to school. I also see children
walking in front of my house walking to Brady.
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790
Q So you have not bean in a position to make a precise
estimate of the number of pupils who would actually need tran3 -
portation if you adopted a different kind of a zoning plan or
a plan which required transportation?
A The only basis on which such facts of exact numbers
could be determined would be to relate the distance of the
building to the heme oil the individual pupil, if indeed we had
a policy that any pupil would be transported who resided more
than two miles from the school he attended.
Q All right, then. I notice that in your Parsons Repot
you stated that there waft $105,000.00 available for conversion
at Mann High School from the last bond is3ue, is that correct?
A X assume that it is.
Q Is that money still available?
A I would have to go to the record to find out. I do
not know.
Q All right then, Mr. Parsons. X notice also that reg
to Metropolitan High School, you stated in ycur report that
$200,000.00 was available from tho lost bond issue. Is that
money still available?
A A portion of this money is identifiably still avail
able.
TOS COURT: Mr. Walker, you don't have tho idea, do
you, that u n e x p e n d e d money from capital construction from a
bond issue is available for transportation, do you?
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M R . W A L K E R t Y o u r H o n o r , I t h i n k it h a s b e e n s t a t e d
t h a t m o n e y ove*. a n d a b o v e t h e a c t u a l c o s t o f c a p i t a l i m p r o v e —
ment.3 c a n b o u s e d b y t h e S c h o o l D i s t r i c t f o r g e n e r a l p u r p o s e s .
T H E C O U R T : I t h i n k Mr. F r i d a y is t h e a u t h o r i t y o n
t h a t m a t t e r . T h a t ' s a f t e r p a y i n g e a c h i n s t a l l m e n t e a c h y e a r .
M R . F R I D A Y ? T h a t r e f e r s t o m i l l a g e . Y o u r H o n o r , and]
n o t t o p r o c e e d s v o t e d f o r it.
T H E C O U R T : T h a t ’s right., n o t t h e p r o c e e d s i t s e l f .
M R . W A L K E R : A l l r i g h t .
B Y M R . W A L K E R :
Q W h a t h a p p e n s , M r . P a r s o n s , i f y o u h a v e m o n e y in e x c c i s
o f t h a a m o u n t t h a t c o m e s in f r o m b o n d i s s u e f o r a s p e c i f i c p u r
p o s e ?
A M a y I a s s u m e y o u ' r e t a l k i n g a b o u t b o n d m o n e y ?
Q Y e s .
A M o n e y t h a t c o m e s t o t h e D i s t r i c t t h r o u g h t h e s a l e o f
b o n d s ?
Q Y e s .
I t r e m a i n s i n a b o n d a c c o u n t i n v e s t e d u n t i l s u c h t i e d
a s i t i s u s e d f o r o n e o f t h e s e v e r a l p u r p o s e s f o r w h i c h i t h a Q
b e e n v o t e d .
Q w h a t h a p p e n s t o t h e i n t e r e s t f r o m t h a t m o n e y ?
A T h e i n t e r e s t f r o m t h e m o n e y is p l a c e d i n t o a buildj.i>
f u n d .
Q B u t c a n n o t t h e i n t e r e s t o n t h a t m o n e y b e u s e d f o r
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n o n - c a p i t a l p u r p o s e s ?
A P e r n o n - c a p i t a l p u r p o s e s , t h a t ' s r i g h t .
Q H o w m u c h m o n e y d o y o u h a v e n o w w h i c h is o r h a s n o t
b e e n u s e d i n y o u r b e n d a c c o u n t ?
A V e r y , v e r y l i t t l e , a c t u a l l y .
Q M i e n y o u 3 a y " v e r y l i t t l e " , d o y o u i n c l u d e t h e
$ 2 0 0 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 o r a p o r t i o n t h e r e o f ?
A A p o r t i o n t h e r e o f , yes.
Q H o w m u c h o f t h a t is a v a i l a b l e ?
A W e l l , I w o u l d h a v e t o d o s o m e c a l c u l a t i n g a n d I c e r
t a i n l y w o u l d n ' t w a n t t o s t a n d o n t h e f i g u r e s f r o m m e m o r y , b u t
m u c h o f t h i s m o n e y w a s u s e d t o r e p a i r t h e s t o r m d a m a g e t h a t
o c c u r r e d o n t h e M a n n H i g h S c h o o l i n t h e f l o o d i n g i n t h e g y m n a
s i u m . A p o r t i o n h a # b e e n r e c o v e r e d t h r o u g h a F e d e r a l G r a n t b u
n o t a l l o f it. A p o r t i o n w a s a l l o c a t e d t o t h e B o o k e r t r a c k
which, w a s b u i l t f o r w h i c h t h e o r i g i n a l a l l o c a t i o n w a s i n s u f f i
c i e n t t o m e e t t h e a c t u a l c o n t r a c t p r i c e o f t h e t r a c k , a n d t w o
o r t h r e e o t h e r m i n o r i t e m s h a v e b e e n c h a r g e d a g a i n s t t h e
$ 2 0 0 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 t h a t w a s o r i g i n a l l y a l l o c a t e d f o r t h e r a p a i r i n g o f
Mann and Metropolitan High Schools.
Q B u t t h e $ 1 8 5 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 f r o m t h e M a n n c o n v e r s i o n is s t i l
a v a i l a b l e ?
A I d i d n ' t s a y t h a t . I d o n o t k n o w . I d o n o t e v e n
r e m e m b e r , a c t u a l l y . I t w a s e v i d e n t l y a v a i l a b l e a t t h a t t i m e .
792
Q W h o i n y o u r a d m i n i s t r a t i o n w o u l d h a v e t h e
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793
ae to how much money is actually available now, not being U3ed|,
r e g a r d l e s s of the purpose that you have —
TEE COURTS You cr-n't get an intelligent answer whei
you add that plurase "regardless of purposo".
MR. WALKER: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q How much money is available from bond i33ues that yoj.
have not presently let contracts for?
A Mr. Walker, I do not knew. Of course, if you nek whf:
would have these figures, I have, but I do not remember these
figures and I don't think you would really expect me to.
Q Isn't it true that the voters voted money for the
construction of an elementary school on West 12th Street?
A That's correct.
Q And isn't it true that amount was at least a half
million dollars?
A No, I think it was $400,000.00, to be exact.
q And that money has not been expended?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that money is now drawing interest?
A I'm sure that it is.
q /sjkJ there are some other moneys in the same category|
isn't that true?
A Yes, there are some other moneys.
Q I'm sure we are talking about considerably less than|
794
a m i l l i o n d o l l a r s , b u t t h e r e a r e m o n e y s t h a t h a v e a c c r u e d t o
t h o D i s t r i c t t h r o u g h b o n d i s s u e s t h a t h a v e n o t b e e n c o m m i t t e d
t o p r o j e c t s i n t e r m s o f s i g n i n g c o n t r a c t s . Y e s , t h e r e a r e
m o n e y s .
M R , XsJALKER: N o m o r e q u e s t i o n s o f M r . P a r s o n s ,
M R , F R I D A Y * I h a v e n o t h i n g f u r t h e r .
T H E C O U R T : Y o u m a y s t e p d o w n .
( W i t n e s s e x c u s e d . )
M R . W A L K E R s M r . F o w l e r , p l e a s e .
T h e r e u p o n ,
H A R R Y F O W L E R
h a v i n g b e e n c a l l e d a s a w i t n e s s b y c o u n s e l f o r p l a i n t i f f , a n d
h a v i n g b e e n f i r s t d u l y s w o r n , w a s e x a m i n e d a n d t e s t i f i e d as
f o l l o w s i
D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N
B Y M R . W A L K E R S
Q M r . F o w l e r , y o u a r e H a r r y F o w l e r , t h e A s s i s t a n t S u p e i -
i n t e n d e n t i n c h a r g e o f P e r s o n n e l f o r t h e C i t y S c h o o l D i s t r i c t ?
A Y e s , I am.
Q M r . F o w l e r , w o u l d y o u t e l l t h e C o u r t w h a t p a r t y o u
p l a y e d i n t h e p r e p a r a t i o n o f t h e d e s e g r e g a t i o n p l a n ?
A M r . W a l k e r , i t w a s m y r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o w o r k w i t h the
p e r c e n t a g e s b a s e d o n t h e n u m b e r o f s t u d e n t s t h a t w o f o u n d i n
e a c h o f t h e z o n e s o n t h e a r e a map.
Q D i d y o u p r e p a r e s e v e r a l a l t e r n a t i v e p l a n s at M r . P a r s o n
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d ir e c t io n or a t the B oard 's d ire c tio n ?
A S ev era l a lte r n a tiv e plans?
Q Y ea .
A No, I d id not prepare a lte rn a tiv e p lan a, Mr. W alker.
X d e a lt w ith d i f fe r e n t f ig u r e s , d if fe r e n t seta o f f ig u r e s , y e s ,
Q D i d y o u s t r i v e t o a r r i v e at m o r e o r l e s s e x a c t propor
t io n s o f N e g r o a n d w h i t e t e a c h e r s at t h e v a r i o u s g r a d e l e v e l s ?
A Mr. W alker, t h a t 's the f i r s t thing we had to do, wor :
w ith th e v a rio u s p ercen ta g es. We had to fig u re the percentage
a t th ree l e v e l s . Then we had to s e t percentages based on thorns
th ree p e rc e n ta g e s .
Q I s e e .
Now, I n o tic e d , Mr. Fowler, th at the School D i s t r i c t
has s e t fo r th th a t th ere w i l l ba a minimum o f 15 per cen t o f a
fa c u lt y Negro and a maximum o f 45 per cen t Negro, i s th a t correc
A Y e s .
Q I n o t ic e a ls o th at a t the high sch ool le v e l fo r 1969
C e n tra l, H a ll , M etropolitan and Parkview Schools w i l l have
rou gh ly between 15 and 17 per cent o f th e ir fa c u lt ie s being
Negro?
A I d o n 't r e c a l l the exact fig u re s but th a t m i n t be
c o r r e c t , I h a v e n 't seen i t —
Q T h i s is E x h i b i t —
T H E C O U R T * H e w i l l a c c e p t y o u r f i g u r e s f o r d i s c u s s i o i
MR. W A L K E R : A l l r i g h t .
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by m r . w a l k e r *
q And that at Horace Mann, 29 per cent of the faculty
would be- Negro?
A Yes*
Q For 1969-70.
A Yes.
Q How do you explain why a formerly Negro school would
have a substantially higher percentage of Negro teachers than
each of the formerly white schools?
A Mr* Walker, I can only echo the words of Mr. Parsons
in his original testimony when he said this was done to lesson
the total impact.
Q Are you saying then it was because of the fact that
the teachers don't want to do this?
A That may be one of the reasons, yes.
Q What are the other reasons, to your knowledge, Mr.
Fowler.
A Well, Mr. Walker, in my opinion, that's one of the
first reasons and perhaps the main reason.
Q Do you know of any other reasons?
A No.
Q Mr. Fowler, at the junior high school level, I notice
that the formerly white junior high schools range from between
19 to 22 per cent black faculty, whereas the formerly Negro
either 43 or 44 per cent black faculty.
796
junior high schools are
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In o t h e r v»orcu, m o r e than two**tO“ o n e porcentage-'wiso in tha
N e g r o s c h o o l s . Do you k n o w the reason for that?
A The same reason would be true all the way through,
Mr. Walker.
Q That would be true for the elementary schools, too?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Fowler, does this plan propose to deal with the
matter of assignments of principals?
A Do.
Q So that under your plan, every formerly Negro school,
with the exception of the two that are now white principals,
would have black principals?
A Yes.
Q And every formerly white school which has a white
principal will continue to have white principals?
A Yes.
Q Do you have —
A Mr. Walker, let me make a statement here.
I personally feel, and I think that it is the feelinc
of the administration, that it is extremely important that
principals be held where they are because, as we go into this
transition, someone must be there to serve a3 the administratis
head of the particular school that knows the schools and the
community, et cetera.
Mr. Fowle-r, is it true, though, that as of August 16Q
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or 17th, there were a number of vacancies in principal positic
that the School District went outside of itself and filled?
In other words, they brought several persons in from, say, the
a ulaski County District to fill vacancies in the white princi
pal ships?
A You prefaced by saying August 16th.
Q Up until August 16th, any principal's position in the
white schools that had come open, you either found white perse
from inside or outside the system to fill?
A No, that's not true. We placed one Negro principal
at the predominantly white school prior to August 16th.
Q But this was not announced until after the 16th of
August?
A I don't recall when it was announced, Mr. Walker.
Q What do you propose to do about this segregation wit|.i
the coaching staff?
A W© have not reached the point of making any decision^
as to how this will be done, Mr. Walker.
Q So you don't have any specific plans for implementing
this other than coining up with some numbers?
THE COURT? Mr. Walker, we have gone over that. The}*
do not know which teachers will be assigned, is that right?
THE WITNESS: That*3 right.
BY MR. WALKERS
Q So what I'm driving at is that in view of the fact
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799
t h a t w h i t e t e a c h e r s a n d N e g r o t e a c h e r s o p p o s e t h i s step, is
t h e r e a n y p a r t i c u l a r r e a s o n w h y y o u d i d n o t c o m e w i t h i n t h e
r o u g h l y 8 2 t o 1 8 r a t i o at t h e h i g h s c h o o l level, t h e 7 3 - 2 7
r a t i o a t t h e j u n i o r h i g h s c h o o l level, o r t h e 6 5 - 3 5 r a t i o at
t h e e l e m e n t a r y l e v e l ?
A I d o n ' t k n o w w h e t h e r I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r q u e s t i o n , M r .
Walker'.
M R . W A L K E R ; Y o u r H o n o r , h a v e I m a d e i t c l e a r ?
T H E C O U R T ? Y e a , I u n d e r s t a n d it, a n d y o u w e n t o v e r
i t i n d e t a i l w i t h M r . P a r s o n s .
B Y MR. W A L K E R :
Q Y o u d o n ' t h a v e — d o y o u h a v e a n e x p l a n a t i o n , s i n c e
y o u ' r e j u s t — -
T H E C O U R T : I n o t h e r w o r d s , w h y d i d n ' t y o u h i t t h ©
e x a c t f i g u r e , p e r c e n t a g e - w i s e , i n e v e r y s c h o o l : I a m s i m p l i f y
i n g h i s q u e s t i o n .
T H E W I T N E S S : I d o n ' t k n o w w h e t h e r I c a n a n s w e r it.
W h e n y o u ' r e d e a l i n g w i t h as m a n y f i g u r e s a s y o u h a v e i n y o u r
h a n d , y o u ' v e g o t t o m a k e i t w o r k . I n o t h e r w o r d s , y o u ' v e g o t
t o h a v e a N e g r o m o v e f r o m o n e s c h o o l a n d a w h i t e t e a c h e r t o
p u t o v e r h e r e , a n d y o u h a v e t o p l a y w i t h t h e f i g u r e s u n t i l yev
g e t it t o w o r k . T h i s t a k e s a c o n s i d e r a b l e l e n g t h o f t i m e a n d
a l o t o f w o r k t o g e t it t o b a l a n c e .
T H E C O U R T : T h e a c t u a l p r a c t i c a l a p p l i c a t i o n o f thee
t h e o r i e s is n o t a s s i m p l e a s w r i t i n g a b r i e f , is w h a t h e is
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800
saying.
M R . W A L K E R : I ' m a w a r e o f that. Y o u r H o n o r , b u t it
seems a N e g r o s c h o o l w i l l n o w b e a b l e t o b e i d e n t i f i e d b y t h e
f a c t t h a t i t h a s a h i g h e r p e r c e n t a g e o f N e g r o t e a c h e r s t h a n
t h e oilier s c h o o l s —
T H E C O U R T : D o y o u h a v e a n y f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s ?
M R . W A L K E R : I h a v e n o m o r e q u e s t i o n s o f t h i s w i t n e s s ,
( W i t n e s s e x c u s e d . )
M R . W A L K E R : T h e r e w a s o n e t h i n g I m e n t i o n e d , Y o u r
H o n o r , t o M r . F r i d a y e a r l i e r t h a t I w o u l d l i k e t o h a v e i n t r o
d u c e d i n t o t h e r e c o r d , a n d t h a t i3 t h e M e t r o P l a n s t a t e m e n t
o f J a n u a r y , 1 9 6 3 , p a r t o f w h i c h I r e a d .
T H E C O U R T : Y o u m a y i n t r o d u c e i t a s —
M R . WALKERs Plaintiff's E x h i b i t 6.
T H E C O U R T : I t is r e c e i v e d .
(The d o c u m e n t h e r e t o f o r e r e f e r r e d
t o w a s m a r k e d P l a i n t i f f ' s E x h i t i
No. 6 f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n , a n d v;a
r e c e i v e d i n e v i d e n c e . )
M R . F R I D A Y : A l l o f t h a t — y o u s h o w e d m e s e v e r a l
p a g e s . D i d t h e y a l l c o m a o u t o f t h e *63 r e p o r t ?
H R . W A L K E R : Y e a .
M R . F R I D A Y : Y o u r H o n o r , w o u l d it b e a l l r i g h t if I
l o o k e d u p t h e *63 r e p o r t , a n d i f I w a n t t o p u t i n a p a g e o r sc,
I w i l l b e p e r m i t t e d t o d o t h a t ?
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TEE COURT: That will be all right.
MR, WALKER: Your Honor, we have no objection to the
putting that in.
As it stands, Your Honor, we have no other evidence
tr
to offer.
Dr. Goldhammer0s testimony is incomplete. I would
think I would have five minutes with him to get his views on
the present plan and Mr. Light, as I understand it, would like
to cross examine Dr. Goldhammer. Our present plan is for Dr.
Goldhammer to arrive Monday night at 8:15, and we would like
to request that the Court convene at about 8:00 o'clock Christ
Eve to hear Dr. Goldhamraer.
TEE COURT: I'm afraid that would inconvenience a
great many people, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: We have checked with Dr. Goldhammer and
he could not get down this weekend, but he wanted to accoramodat
the Court. I took the Court's statement that —
THE COURT: I quite often get here at 8:00, but a
great many other people do not.
MS. WALKER: The problem is that Dr. Goldhammer can
only get back to Oregon if he loaves at 11:50 that date.
M B COORT: HOW long do yon think his testimony won:
take?
MR. WALKER: That is up to Mr. Light.
MR. LIGHT: If Mr. Walker does not extend his furth
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direct examination past the five minutes ho has just indicated ,
I don't think I would require more than an hour or slightly
more than that for cross examination*
THE COURT: Will the defendants have any other testi
mony, or do they know?
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, we don't think so, and if
you tell me to complete right now, I will, but I might want
one short rebuttal witness, if that would bo all right.
THE COURT: They haven't completed their case. With
the exception of Dr. Coldhammer, you rest your case?
MR. WALKER: We would like to have either Mrs. SpradL
or the manager of the Twin-City Transit Company.
THE COURT: That they sell token tickets to children
at a cheaper price, is that right?
MR. WALKER: I want to show the number of pupils
presently who are basically transported to and from school by
bus.
THE COURT: How would they know? I tell you what.
You get a written statement of that and give it to Mr. Friday,
and you can put it in as an exhibit.
MR. WALKER* That will be fine, Your Honor.
FRIDAY: Fine.
MR. ROTEHBERRY: Your Honor, we also decided what
part of this Metro Plan publication, the 1960 comprehensive
Development Plan, that wo wish to designate and make a part
802
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G03
of the record. Do you wish to do that now?
MR. FRIDAY* I haven't seen your pages.
Your Honor, I put in some, and he can put in what he
wants to.
THS COURT: All right, you may do that.
In order to accommodate Dr. Goidhammer — and I sym
pathize with his family problems which I have been advised of —
we will adjourn and convene Tuesday at 8*30, and we will get
through Tuesday, hopefully by noon.
(thereupon, at 4*10 o'clock, p.ra., the above entitle
proceedings? were recessed, to reconvene at 8:30 o'clock on the
morning of Tuesday, December 24, 1968.)
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
804
DELORES CLARK, et al, :
v.
Plainti ffs,
No. LR-64-C-155
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE :
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, et al, :
Defendants. :
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ~ - - - . - - - . - - x
U. S. Post Office and Courthouse
Little Rock, Arkansas
Tuesday, December 24, 1968
BE IT REMEMBERED, That the above-entitled matter
was continued after adjournment from December 20, 1968, before
the Honorable GORDON E. YOUNG, United States District Judge,
commencing at 8:30 o'clock, a.m.
APPEARANCES:
On behalf of plaintiffs:
JOHN W. WALKER, Esq., and
BURL C. RGTENBERRY, Esq., of
Walker and Rotenberry,
182.0 West Thirteenth Street,
Little Rock, Arkansas; and
PHILLIP KAPLAN, Esq., of
McMath, Leatherman, Woods & Youngdaal,
711 West Third Street,
Little Rock, Arkansas.
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ou j
On behalf of defendants:
HERSCHEL H. FRIDAY, JR., Esq.,
ROBERT V. LIGHT, Esq., and
JOE D. BELL, Esq., of
Smith, Williams, Friday & Bowen,
Boyle Building,
Little R.ock, Arkansas.
806
1 t C O N T E N T S
2 WITNESS miiiiCT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
3 Dr. Keith Goldhammer
A
(Resumed) 807 324 868 mm
Edwin Hawkins 370 871
5
Daniel H. Woods 877 883
6
7 exhibits
8 For Identification In Evidence
9 Plaintiff's:
10 No. 5 888
11 No. 7 876 876
12 Defendant's:
13 No. 31 877 877
14 Court Exhibit No. 1 874 874
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807
P R O C E E D I N G S
THE COURT: Gentlemen, is Dr. Goldhammer to take
the stand?
Doctor, how are you, sir?
He has already been sworn.
Thereupon,
DR. KEITH GOLDHAMMER
having previously been called as a witness on behalf of
plaintiffs, and having been previously duly sworn, was
examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Resumed
BY MR. WALKER:
Q You are Dr. Keith Goldhammer, who has testified
in the earlier phase of this case?
A Yes, sir.
Q Dr. Goldhammer, when you were employed by the
Little Rock School District to undertake a survey of the
desegregation problems facing this school district, did you
happen to have occasion to have discussions with the members
of the Board in re what they wanted you to do?
A Yes. We had several formal and informal discussi'
with the School Board and with the administration. I think
one of the discussions -- one of the first discussions that
we had with them, they wanted to explore what our concerns
or what our reaction might be to the general problems of the
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808
t
-- of desegregating a dual school system.
One of the questions that they put to us at that
time was can you develop a plan that will actually be a per
manent -- result in a permanent desegregation of the school
or a permanent development of a permanent unitary school
system.
The members of the School Board -- some of the mem
bers of the School Board expressed concern that in so many
communities where the racial composition approached somewhat
the proportions of Little Rock, the initial steps that -- the
desegregation of the schools resulted in a very rapid re
segregation with, of course, the problem that has resulted in
so many communities and particularly along the East Coast wher;
the effect of the desegregation is to produce a rapid move
ment of people out of the community into the surrounding
suburbs.
The charge which the Board made to us was to try to
develop a plan that would have have an effect, be in effect,
a means whereby Little Rock could be saved from becoming a
total Negro city such as has happened in Washington, D. C. and
New York and other large communities.
So that we were asked to come up with a plan that
would have a lasting effect and would in effect eliminate the
possibility of a very rapid resegregation. This is the point,
I think, that I made when I was here before of trying to hit
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809
the problem of what we call in education the "tipping point"
where the percentage of minority groups within a school system
rises to such a proportion that you have a rapid retreat of
the majority group from that particular school or neighborhood
Q Let me ask one or two other questions that I did
not before, Doctor.
Have you any experience as a school administrator?
THE COURT: A little louder, please, Mr. Walker.
THE WITNESS: Well, I am a school administrator. I
have some hundred faculty members who are responsible to me an 1
some 3,000 students enrolled in various degree programs. I
have been a superintendent of schools in the State of Oregon,
and over the years since 1954, when I completed my doctorate,
I have provided administrative programs for schools -- Tucson,
Arizona, Richmond, California, Medford, Oregon, Portland,
Oregon. I deal with school administrators and school problems
every day of my life. This is my profession.
Q Are youfemiliar with Mr. Eldon Stimbert?
A Yes, very well. He's the Superintendent of Schools
at Memphis.
Q Has he ever -- has he ever been in situation where
he received instruction or --
A He's never been in any of my classes formally. How
ever, we have been at many meetings and conferences together
where I have presented lectures and I have led discussions of
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which he'has been a member, yes.
Q I see.
Now, have you had an opportunity to study the Schoo>
Board resolution and plan which I handed to you which was pre
pared or made on November 15, 1968?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is your opinion of that resolution?
A Well, when I received --
THE COURT: You mean the resolution or the plan whici
it sets forth? Not the resolution itself.
MR. WALKER: The resolution and the plan it sets
forth, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: When I received the plan of couple of
weeks ago, I had an immediate concern as to whether or not it
met the criteria which His Honor suggested at the conclusion
of the hearing in August, and so I re-studied the plan in rela
tionship to my review of the statement which the Court made in
August.
MR. LIGHT: Your Honor, I am going to object. He's
here to testify as an expert in the educational field and.not
as an attorney.
THE COURT: Well, I don't know just where he is goir
Mr. Light. Let's proceed.
THE WITNESS: From the standpoint of the educational
810
concern that I would have, the basic criterion was that there
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811
be neither Negro schools nor white schools but just schools.
And then there were certain other criteria which related to
this primary concern.
Now, as far as faculty desegregation is concerned,
the resolution or the plan submitted in the resolution, it seem*
to me, to be an approach to the accomplishment of the ends
that were indicated as desirable by the Court. It does not do
the entire job, but I would say that if it is followed by
action that would relieve any inequities that were left to
exist, that within a relatively short time, complete faculty
desegregation could be achieved.
As long as you're going to move some two hundred
teachers, however, I would rather do the job all at once than
do it piecemeal. But I would have to say that the plan is an
approach and could be conceived to be a satisfactory approach
to faculty desegregation.
I would refer specifically to the fact that the
largest percentage of Negro teachers still remains in what
were formerly considered to be the Negro schools, and this woul<
be my primary objection to it.
The second concern that I had was what would this
mean as far as the desegregation of pupils was concerned; and
in viewing this plan in relationship to this map, which I
assume is an exhibit --
Q Exhibit 22.
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K T T
A -- that goes along with the plan, I was concerned
because the heart and core of a unitary school system has to
be the placement of pupils, not the placement of faculty. And
in this instance, I am very much concerned that we have again
with the composition of the population in Little Rock, somewha
of a freezing in of the present dual school system, with the
possibility in the central part of the city, as Negroes -- as
the Negro population increases in that section, you'll have
again the problem that the School Board had originally hoped
to avoid, namely, the retreat of the white population to the
western suburbs and the resegregation of the central core of
the city.
So my concern there is that as far as pupils are
concerned, this is very -- whatever progress is made toward
elimination of the dual school system is a temporary gain, and
sociologically, it appears to me that it would be followed
very rapidly with the resegregation of the community.
My third point is that on the basis of our study of
the faculty, we would be concerned about any plan that did not
incorporate within it a high concentration of concern upon the
in-service education of the teachers.
THE COURT: I didn't understand that, Doctor.
THE WITNESS: Any plan that did not involve an in-
service training program for teachers while they are on the
job.
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DIRECT - Goldhaminer 813
THE COURT: What do you mean by that, Doctor?
THE WITNESS: A program that would give them the
technical instructions that they need in order to deal effec
tively with the changed composition of their classes.
THE COURT: You're talking about both groups of
classes?
white.
THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. Yes, both the Negro and the
And the reason for this is that you have different
types of educational situations with which the teachers must
now deal; and to make the plan operative in effect as well as
just by the additions of numbers in classrooms, I think you
have to have teachers who are skilled in dealing with the kinds
of problems that arise as the result of bringing the children
from the diverse backgrounds together, prepared to do the kind
of individualized and small group instruction that will, in
effect, make the educational situation successful.
I am also — I'm not sure this was or that this is
in reply to your question. Let me offer it -- I am also con
cerned because one of the -- I think Mr. Parsons originally,
in his reaction to the proposal that we had made to the School
Board, put his finger on one of the weaknesses of our plan as
far as the practical implementation of our plan was concerned.
And this was -- we were possibly too idealistic in
that we looked too far into the future, and he still had to be
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DIRECT - Goldhammer 814
c o n c e r n e d w i t h w h a t to do M o n d a y m o r n i n g , w h a t do I do n e x t
y e a r ?
A n d so he s u g g e s t e d , as I r e c a l l , t h a t as l o n g as
the b o u n d a r i e s b e t w e e n s c h o o l u n i t s r a n n o r t h a n d s o u t h , y o u
c o u l d n o t h a v e th e t y p e o f u n i t a r y s c h o o l p r o g r a m t h a t y o u
c o u l d h a v e i f y o u r a n y o u r b o u n d a r i e s e a s t a n d w e s t . So, as
I r e c a l l M r . P a r s o n s ' p l a n , he s u g g e s t e d d r a w i n g b o u n d a r i e s eas
a n d w e s t so t h a t t h e a t t e n d a n c e u n i t s of the s c h o o l w e r e d e f i n e
to c u t a c r o s s t h e s e g r e g a t e d h o u s i n g p a t t e r n s of the c o m m u n i t y
T H E C O U R T : W e ' r e t a l k i n g a b o u t h i g h s c h o o l s , j u n i o *
h i g h s c h o o l s --
T H E W I T N E S S : T h i s w a s s e n i o r h i g h s c h o o l s and, o f
c o u r s e , t h e f e e d e r s c h o o l p l a n s t h e n w o u l d fall i n t o a s i m i l a r
t y p e o f p a t t e r n .
W e l l , m y c o n c e r n h e r e in this p l a n of N o v e m b e r 1 5 t h
o f t h i s y e a r is t h a t this g o e s b a c k to the s a m e k i n d o f an
a d m i n i s t r a t i v e p l a n f o r the a s s i g n m e n t of p u p i l s to w h i c h Mr.
P a r s o n s w a s r e a c t i n g w h e n he p r o p o s e d the e s t a b l i s h m e n t o f the
e a s t - w e s t b o u n d a r i e s .
I f e e l t h a t as fa r as a c c o m p l i s h i n g the p u r p o s e s o f
c r e a t i n g a u n i t a r y s c h o o l s y s t e m , hi s c o n c e p t of the e a s t - w e s t
b o u n d a r i e s w a s a m u c h m o r e p e r m a n e n t s o l u t i o n t h a t thi s .
B Y M R . W A L K E R :
Q D o c t o r , t h e r e has b e e n t e s t i m o n y to t h e e f f e c t t h a t
t h e l a c k o f i n t e g r a t i o n at H a l l H i g h S c h o o l is e d u c a t i o n a l l y
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DIRECT - Goldhammer 815
t
undesirable. Do you agree with that opinion stated by Mr.
Parsons and, if so, would you state your reasons?
A That the lack of integration at Hall High School is
educationally undesirable?
Q Yes.
A Oh, yes. I --
Q Let me ask then what effect does this undesirable sit
ation have upon the ability of the school district to provide
equality of opportunity in the other schools within the
district?
A I think you have to look at the school system as a
whole. Ideally, from an educational point of view and socioloji
cal point of view, we would want each school to be somewhat of
a small mirror of the community, a microcosm of the total com
munity; and our concern would be to help the children grow and
become socially efficient and effective individuals in a social
system -- the school -- that resembles the community in which
they will live as adults.
The problem cannot be solved by having a partial
solution in the community, having some schools remain segregate!
,1 other schools remain integrated or become integrated. For
instance, you have -- what -- 1500 Negro senior high pupils in
Little Rock. If you have a thousand in one school, then you
have only five hundred to distribute between, say, one or two
other schools, if you have three high schools. Obviously, then,
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DIRECT - Goldhammer 316
one high school is over-entolled with Negro students while
other schools have a lower than what you could consider an ade
quate number of students to maintain the concept of a unitary
school system.
Now, the more extremes these differences in enroll
ment are, then the more difficult it becomes to establish the
school as a mirror of the community; the more difficult it is
fo the students, even within the large school to maintain theiv
self-image, their ability to deal effectively with their peers
in the majority group.
So my concern here would be that wherever you get
the pattern out of balance, you create an over-enrollment of a
minority group in one segment and an under-enrollment in another
segment. You are going to create the same kinds of problems
to which we educationally have been reacting against for some
time.
Q Is there, with regard to the specific Hall High
situation anything from an educational standpoint, undesirable
about the fact that you have only three Negro students out of
the broad plan of some 1400?
A Oh, yes, those Negro youngsters are undoubtedly
isolated. They do not have sufficient number of their own
group which will reinforce them in their racial relationship
or educational relationship. Some of them may, by particular
aptitudes, achieve prominence, but this is because of the wa>s
in which they excel and without that they would be very much
lost in a crowd.
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DIRECT - Goldhammer m
I have not studied this aspect particularly at Hall
High School. I have in other places. You see a small group
of Negroes eating by themselves, not getting or being able to
get into the mainstream of student activities, and so forth.
It takes a tremendous amount of work on the part of some other
students in the school to get those students to -- to get those
students deeply involved in the total life of the school.
We have a sociological term which we call ’’reference
group theory", and in reference group theory, what we mean is
that the youngsters or any group will have to have a stable
base of their own group, people who are like-minded, as a basis
of being able to deal realistically and stably with the prob
lems that confront them.
Q Looking at Exhibit 22 there, you see the area in the
gree, which is the Parkview School area?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you and your team surveyed the Little Rock
Public Schools, did you find a need at that time for the con
struction of a new senior high school for grades ten, eleven
and twelve?
A No. There was a need for additional secondary
school facilities, and the Board consulted us before they
accepted bids on the Parkview School, and our concern was the
very serious overcrowding coupled with obsolescence had affectc
the junior high schools, and we agreed that Parkview ought to
be built because of the inadequacies and deficiencies that
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DIRECT - Goldhammer 818
existed.
As I recall, the resolution of the Board was that
this be built as a secondary school facility, and the idea was
that it would house probably grades eight-nine or eight, nine,
ten, something like that, to relieve the situation that existed
at that time.
Q Do you recall what the situation with regard to need
for another high school was at that particular time?
A Well, Hall High Schoo, of course, was overcrowded,
as I recall, at that time; and Central High School was about at
its capacity; but Mann High School was under-utilized, as I
recall.
Q I see.
Now, have you had an opportunity to compare the
Parsons Plan that was submitted subsequent to the defeat of yen
proposal with the plan which has been submitted to the Court
by the present School Board?
A Not in great detail. I have done this on the basis
of my memory of the Parsons Plan and, of course, my feeling was
that the Parsons Plan was a good, substantial proposal for
effecting a unitary school system over a period of time.
I would say that it was -- it would accomplish the
objectives of establishing a unitary school system to a much
higher degree and with more certainty that this would be a per
manent solution than the plan submitted under the resolution o
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DIRECT - Goldhammer
tof November 15th.
Q I see. Are there, in your judgment, readily avail
able, feasible alternatives to this present plan for dis-estab-
lishing the present dual school system?
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, I'm sorry. I didn't hear
you. Please speak up.
BY MR. WAKER:
Q Are there readily available, feasible alternative
plans to the present plan for dis-establishing the pre-existing
dual school pattern?
A Why, yes. You have three plans that I have seen,
all of which I would say are superior to the plan submitted
under this resolution of November 15. The three plans are,
in all modesty, our plan, Mr. Parsons' plan, and the plan whic \
I believe became known as the Walker plan, is that correct, or
the plan that was submitted as a modification of our and Mr.
Parsons' plan.
Q I see. There has been some testimony, Dr. Goldhamm;
to the effect that costs-- the cost of implementing those three
plans -- are prohibitive. Would you state what, in your judg
ment, either of those plans or all three of those plans could
be implemented for?
A You mean --
Q What the cost elements within those plans are and
whether or not in your judgment this School District, from >ou
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-------DIRECT - Goldhammer c u
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study of its financial base, has the means to implement either
of those plans?
A That's a little bit difficult without particular
study of the financial situation.
Our plan, of course, involved a considerable amount
of school construction. I believe it was estimated at $10
million at the time and it's probably more now. As I indicatei
before, we would recommend that construction, regardless of thJ
concern of the School District for developing any unitary
plan because the buildings are obsolescent and, as the community
can, they should be replaced with new modern educational plant:
From that standpoint, you can't assess that cost
to the cost of developing a unitary school system. However,
our plan was dependent to a considerabl extent upon that con
struction being done, so our plan would be quite expensive,
and there would probably be more busing involved in our plan tjian
in others.
I believe probably the least expensive, because it
did not envisage any immediate construction, was the last of
the three plans that I believe was submitted by you on behalf
of your clients. That plan would involve a program of busm,
as would the Parsons Plan, if we were to provide the means forj
children of low income families getting to the proper school
I forget what our estimates were on that, but I
would imagine that there would be an expenditure annually of,
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DIRECT - Goldhammer 821
oh, three or four hundred thousand dollars. I don't know just
exactly.
Arkansas lias a rather generous state allocation for
transportation. At least half of it would, of course, coine
from the state for transportation.
In my judgment as an administrator, I would say
that if this has high priority, moneys could be diverted from
other purposes in order to accomplish this end. In my small
organization, we have a budget only of about a million dollars
We have taken money from other training programs to put it into
the development of vocational educational programs because of
the fact that there is a tremendous urgency in our state for
augmenting the vocational preparation programs.
We consider this to be a priority. Some people in
my organization who were adversely affected by this transfer
don't love me for it -- they probably didn't love me beforehanl
anyway -- but to meet the urgency of the situation, we took
money that was established in the budget and diverted it
towards this new program.
I think you could do the same in any public budget,
if you feel that the urgency has sufficient priority to be
worthy of it. Maintenance money, supply money, textbook
money might be diverted to this purpose temporarily until &
more satisfactory pattern and budget could be established.
Q Dr. Goldhammer, have you had an opportunity to revi ;
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DIRECT r Goldhammer 822
the Beta Complex as it was conceived in the Parsons Report?
A Not since August, and so it's not terribly fresh in
my mind.
Q May I refresh your memory? The Beta Complex was
Mr. Parsons' idea for dealing with these five elementary schoo s
Garland, Oakhurst, Franklin, Lee and Stephens. It was basical y
a pairing arrangement.
Do you have an opinion as to what the effect would
be on the total desegregation approach of the District if that
particular plan were carved out?
A If my memory is correct, this would still not deal
with the problem adequately on the east or the west sides of
town.
Q Why is that, Dr. Goldhammer?
A Well, because you still will have the concentration
of the white youngsters on the west side of town and the Negro
youngsters on the eastern side of town. My concern would be,
again, that in order to handle the problem on a permanent basi>
you have to deal with the total community, the total school
district.
Here, again, if you have a concentration of Negro
students, say, approaching thirty per cent, in this area of
the community; and you have less than ten per cent in the west;
end of the community - - I ’m not sure these are the figures.
I'm using this just as an illustration -- then very rapidly
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your Negro population in the central section of the town will
increase to the point where the white families will retreat as
there is an increasing invasion of Negro families, and you will
have resegregated that section of the community.
Q Let me ask you one final question. Have you had --
how would you evaluate the superintendent^ offering differing
plans to differing boards of education or boards of education
differently constituted in terms of his relationship between
his power structure, the school board?
THE COURT: Your’re not clear, Mr. Walker.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q How would you evaluate Mr. Parsons’ differing plans
in terms of the relationship between him, as a professional
educator, and the school board?
A May I evaluate myself as an administrator? I have
no proprietary interest in the school which I administer. I an
hired by the State Board of Higher Education. I am dependent
for my job on the State Board of Higher Education.
If they tell me to scrap vocational education, I
either scrap my program in vocational education or get out. I
is just that simple. I have a contract that they would probab
have to pay me off, but nevertheless, I am their man.
Now, the Superintendent is in the same position.
No superintendent can go about developing what he perceives to
be, purely on the basis of educational values, the correct
DIRECT - Goldhaminer
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DIRECT - Goldharamer
procedure or the correct program or the correct plan of actior.
lie has to receive his instructions from the board that hires
him and has the power to fire him.
I presume you want me to address myself to the
question why is this plan different from the plan that Mr.
Parsons submitted a year ago, and --
THE COURT: Well, do you know why, Doctor?
THE WITNESS: Well, I do not know exactly why, but
all I can say is that the Superintendent of Schools has to
follow the guidelines, the policies established by his board.
THE COURT: That is elementary, isn't it, Doctor?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. WALKER: Thank you, Doctor.
THE COURT: Let's take a recess for about ten
minutes .
(A short recess was taken.)
THE COURT: You may cross examine, Mr. Light.
MR. LIGHT: Thank you, Your Honr.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q Dr. Goldhammer, did I correctly understand you to
take the position that racial balance, per se, is educationally
desirable in a school?
A I'm not sure -- I think we could get into a semanti :
problem.
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CROSS " Goldhammer 825
Q I hope not.
A Per se, just by itself, no. Racial balance, coupled
with the appropriate educational program to go along with it,
is desirable. To just provide for the racial balance within
a school system, without making the necessary adjustments in
the educational program, would not be desirable.
Q All right.
A I shouldn’t say "would not be desirable". It would
not be superior.
Q Superior to what?
A To a dual system.
Q All right. If racial balance is to contribute any
thing to the educational program a school district is going
to offer, it has to have all these fringes to go along with it
that you include in your plan and have been included in some o
the other plans, is that right?
A It has to include what I call the compensatory
education program, special education program, the in-service
training of teachers, yes.
Q Do you believe that it is educationally bad to have
heavy concentration of various ethnic groups in a school?
A In a situation where it can be avoided, yes.
Q Do you believe that the all-Negro school -- and I
have reference to the student body -- is educationally undesii
able in itself?
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CROSS _ Gldhammer 826
A Yes, sir, I believe that the position that the
Supreme Court took in 1954 has been substantiated by a con
siderable amount of research.
Q And would the same thing hold true of a school that
had a very heavy concentration of Negro students that perhaps
had a few percentage points of students above that of other
groups in it?
A That depends on whether this group has been the
recipient of discrimination and has been accorded no social
prestige. Let's stand, for instance, suppose you had a few
Scandinavian students who have generally been accorded, as an
ethnic group, rather high social prestige. That isn't true.
That isn't the situation that would prevail.
However, let's take the fact that you have a half
dozen Jewish youngsters in a school. Here is a group that has
s uffered discrimination the same as the Negroes. This is bad
for those youngsters unless efforts are made, of course, to
protect them.
Q There is testimony in this case, Doctor, that there
are schools in this country that are composed of heavy concen
trations of ethnic groups other than Negroes. For example,
New Rochelle, New York, has a school that is over ninety per
cent Jewish and one that is over ninety per cent Italian.
You are familiar with that sort of situation which
chools districts, are you not?is occuring in various s
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CROSS Goldhammer 827
A Yes.
Q Now, is it educationally bad to have schools com
posed of students of that character?
A If the composition of the community could prevent
this kind of concentration, I would say that it is educational 1
undesirable to permit that concentration to occur.
Q What if the composition of the community can't pre
vent it? For example, you get out in the Mid-West, you've
got many, many school districts that are all-white because
there are no Negroes in --
A The same is practically true in most communities
in Oregon, too. We have, maybe, I would say less than six
per cent, or five per cent, of the population is Negro in the
community in Oregon.
I think our white children are deprived of an oppor
tunity fully to participate in the mainstream of what is hap
pening in American culture; and this is the one of the things
that I would be concerned about. I am concerned about it in
my own school.
For the two years now that I have been there, I have
been trying to provide some Negro staff members, in spite of
the fact that we have only one or two Negro students, just so
that our students will have an opportunity to participate m
the total American culture, which means dealing with the ethni.
racial, religious differentials that exist in American societ)
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CROSS - Goldhammer m
which composes in my estimation the strength of American
society.
Q The school in which you are Dean, Doctor, I believe
you said had about 3,000 students, is this correct?
A Yes.
Q And only one or two of those are Negro students?
A Yes, sir.
Q And how many Negro faculty members do you have?
A I do not have any. I had one graduate teaching
assistant last year who was a Negro, but he finished his degre •
program.
Q Tell me a little bit about the school district in
Oregon where you were the superintendent.
A It's very small.
Q How many students, approximately?
A When I went there, they had about five hundred, and
when I left, about a thousand.
Q And how many Negro students among those?
A I -- never more than one or two. Never more than
one family in the community.
Q_ And on occasion, perhaps none?
A Yes, I think that we always had one family in the
community, but I'm not sure. That was a long time ago.
Q What experience have you had teaching Negroes or
administering schools in which Negro students represented a
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a substantial and significant element of the population?
A I have done major studies for two school districts
v/here the ethnic composition of the school was a major factor
in having to devise thd programs that we were working on. One,
the Richmond Public Schools in Richmond, California, where we
did all the building projection, the educational specifications
for new buildings, where I was the liaison between the school
district and the county planning commission at a time when --
Q Doctor, did you understand my question? I asked
what experience you have had administering school systems or
schools in which there was a substantial Negro group.
A Well, not as a -- not as the superintendent of
schools but as the consultant to the school board and the
school administration, in particularly these two communities.
Q Richmond, and what other community?
A Tucson, Arizone.
Q And, of course, Little Rock would be the third.
A Little Rock would be the third, yes.
Q And you have drawn your experience that you have ta
to those three communities from your studies in Oregon. I
believe all three of your degrees were in Oregon, were they no
A Yes.
Q Doctor, you indicated this morning, in your pro
fessional judgment, the three Negro students that are projectei
to be in Hall High School will be at an educational disadvantaj
CROSS - Goldhammer
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CROSS - Goldhammer
they will be Isolated, and that sort of thing, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q Isn't that the situation Negroes in Oregon find
themselves in when they enter the schools there?
A Yes, it is, and it's an undesirable situation, but
we can't help-it.
Q Will the achievement of racial balance in the Littls
Rock school system, if the plan such as you proposed were pur
sued, would it injure some of the children educationally?
A That's a difficult question to answer, and let me
perhaps answer it this way.
There will be some dislocations, and there will be
some difficult problems; and I suspect that there will be some
individuals who will be hurt. You cannot make major shifts on
*
the scale that is suggested here without doing so.
Q Doctor -- pardon me. Were you through?
A My answer would also have to include that there
undoubtedly have been children over the years who have been
hurt as the result of the failure to create a unitary school
system.
Q We are balancing out now which group of children
are we going to hurt educationally, is that right?
A Yes. What is done now will be very transitory, and
if you have the adequate compensatory education program and
the adequate special education programs and the adequate in-
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service programs for the teachers and school administrtors,
it's my contention that you could minimize any disabilities oil
the problems that will arise.
Q In your study of the Little Rock school system, diu
you become aware that there was a disparity in the average
achievement between the Negro students and the white students
of the system?
A This is not a facet that we studied in detail. We
have had information that this was the case and, of course,
this is generally the case in a dual school system.
Q Well, isn't this the pattern you perceive throughout
the United States?
A Yes.
Q Whether you go north or south, you find it, don't
you, Doctor?
A We find it wherever there is a dual school system.
I have just completed a rather intensive study for another
purpose in Portland. Portland has only six per cent Negroes, I
but they have had a ae facto segregation policy or effect,
and the achievement scores in the segregated Negro schools
tended to be lower than in the surrounding white schools.
Q I’m not sure that --
A This is also a factor, however, in the segregated
socio-economic schools among white children. Their scores I
tend to be lower when they are in separate schools than the
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upper socio-economic classes.
Negro test scores, even in segregated situations,
tend to be higher than some other ethnic groups that are segrc[
gated.
Q I'm not sure that I understand what you mean when
you use the terminology "dual school system". Would you tell
me some large school systems in the country that are not dual
school systems? By your definition of that term.
A Immediately after the Supreme Court decision,
Washington, D. C. became a unitary school system, but it was
resegregated very, very quickly.
I guess to really make a direct answer to your ques
tion, the larger school systems in the country today are tending
to be faced with problems of de facto desegregation with which
they are struggling. We have some suburban schools or medium
sized schools, many of them, that are unitary school systems
because the pattern of segregation has been disrupted as the
result of considerable growth in the communities or by the
conscious policy of the school boards.
For instance, we have a large suburban area in Port
land, the David Douglas School District, that has probably abotjt
-- well, maybe not quite as much, but about as many Negro
students proportionate to its enrollment as Portland.
Q This is six per cent, approximately?
A Well, I'm not sure, but it's -- there are enough
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there so that it is a visible segment of the school populatior .
But they are distributed throughout the school system.
Q Doctor, do you know of any school system in the
country where the proportion of Negro students runs as high a<
thirty per cent, which is the case in Little Rock, that has
achieved and maintained in a stable fashion the sort of racial
balance in each of its schools as you propose here?
A At this point, no, I cannot cite where this has
been done.
Q Would this achievement of disparity we're talking
about a moment ago create educational problems if the school
district were restructured along the lines you suggest?
A I'm not sure I understand your question. Do you
mean that there would be problems uniquely created by the
program?
Q Well, let me rephrase my question.
If we homogenized the students of the system in th<
schools, as you propose, would the fact that some of the eight:
grade youngsters are achieving substantially below the other
eighth grade youngsters they are brought in contact with
create educational problems?
A Probably the disparities that exist between the
schools now is no greater than the disparities that currently
exist within the schools, so that your children, for instance,
in your white schools will be ranged a long a continuum from
low to high.
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You will have the same type of continuum in the
Negro schools, although the average of the two groups, probably
the Negro average will be smaller. Now, in reality, this
is just the problem with which we have dealt in schools for a
long time, and one of the reasons, generally throughout the
country today, we are recommending such programs as individual
instruction.
For instance, the Federal government has put a lot
of money into developing what we call the IPI System, the
Individual Personalized Instruction, where we are attempting
to provide the proper educational interventions for all child)e
One of our problems in educational --
A Doctor, pardon me for interrupting you, but my quei•
tion was whether those disparities are going to create educa
tional problems. Are they or are they not?
A They already -- this is the heart and core of our
educational problems, is to meet the individual differences oi
children. As I have indicated, this already exists, and one
of the major concerns throughout the country for all children
is to provide an individual prescription for learning for them.
Q In fact, the reason that you stress so much the
need for compensatory education is to overcome these disparii...
is that not fair?
A In part, that's fair. In part, it isn't. Because
I see the need for the compensatory education, as I conceive
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the term, for the white youngsters just as well as the Negro
youngsters, and this deals with attitudinal problems as well
as achievement problems.
It deals with the problems of helping youngsters
to adjust to new situations so that this is general for the
school system. My suspicion is that practically everything I
suggest for your compensatory or special education --
Q Doctor, let me stop you. I don't want the record
containing your suspicions.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, let me state that Mr.
Light, once he asks a question, could give the Doctor a chance
to answer the question.
THE COURT: I think he finished that particular
answer, didn't you, Doctor?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q So that the record will be perfectly clear, Doctor
when you state that you think there would be no greater range
of disparity in the current white schools than there would be
by taking current white schools and Negro schools, or predomi
nantly white schools and predominantly Negro schools, you are
simply speculating on what you'd find in the Little Rock
system, because I believe you have already said you did not
examine the achievement grades in the system.
A Not in detail.
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Q Did you examine enough in detail to tell me what
the average difference of achievement level is at the high
school level?
A No, sir. If it is in the report, I don't recall
that data now.
Q Doctor, the approach of your group in formulating
your plan was to devise the best educational system that woult
produce a racial balance in the schools without regard to
monetary problems, was it not?
A That is correct.
Q And it would be impossible to use your plan withoul
some district-provided busing?
A That is correct.
Q In your suggestion that there are state funds avail
able to assist with the busing expense, to what extent are you
familiar with the Arkansas laws and regulations of the State
Board of Education pertaining to supporting transportation by
the school districts?
A I hate to have to cite them at the present time,
but we did have a member of our staff who explored them at the
time, and I am not sufficiently familiar at the present moment
with them. All I know is that this was the result of the stuc)
that one of the members of our staff did, in consultation witi
people in the State Department of Education.
idea what effect it would have on theQ Have you any
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tavailable funds from the State Department of Education if the
largest school district in the state suddenly commenced a mas;
transportation program that it had not conducted in the past?
A I don't know whether this is a closed or an open -■
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I think the question posec
by Mr. Light is really not an accurate one. The Little Rock
School District is not the largest school district in the
state, and I don't think there is anything to show that.
THE COURT: Well, I think I know what you mean.
There is a slight difference between the Little Rock School
District and the Pulaski County School District. They are
about the same. I think it's irrelevant.
Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: If it's a closed account -- by this,
I mean a certain amount of money or number of dollars put into
the account, obviously, as you increase the load, it decrease:
the subvention that can be given for any one unit.
If it’s an open account, then the state allocates
a certain amount of money per pupil or per unit of need, and
so you would have that level which the state decrees main
tained.
I do not know whether this is an open account or a
closed account.
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q Do you have any idea of what capital expenditu
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would be required to acquire a sufficient number of buses to
operate such a transportation system?
A I think you have to look at this in two ways: One,
if you were to buy a new bus system, you will have at the
present time, probably the complete purchase you would make in
Little Rock, probably about twelve or fifteen thousand dollars
per bus. That would be the capital investment.
I do not know exactly how many buses you would have
to use. However, you have a city-owned, I believe, transit
system
THE COURT: It is privately owned, Doctor.
THE WITNESS: Privately owned. I would explore the
possibility of using the existing transportation system or
contracting with the private contractors. We did in the schoc
district in which I was the administrator.
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q Have you explored those possibilities for this sysi
A I have not explored them for this system.
Incidentally, I should say that when I lived in
Little Rock, all three of my youngsters rode the bus to schoo:
but I paid for it.
Q Doctor, you have testified here before, I believe,
that there is nothing to lose, educationally, from abandoning
the neighborhood school concept. Is this a fair recollection
of your testimony?
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A That's correct. Yes, sir.
Q Does the neighborhood school concept provide for
safety of the school child in his traveling to and from school
in a better fashion that riding buses across town?
A In reality, the logic would say yes, but the experi
ence doesn't indicate that.
Q What experience is that?
A The experience of our school district-operated
transportation system is one that has a tremendously enviable
safety record. People see the school bus. There are state
laws in every state to protect, provide special traffic regu
lations for both the operation of a bus and the circulation of
traffic around it and the protection of children boarding and
dismounting from the bus.
We have very, very few children in the United States
who are injured. I had a dissertation done on this problem
insofar as the insurance claims against -- that accrue from seb
bus accidents. It's tremendously low in the State of Oregon,
and I presume elsewhere as the result of the safety factors
associated with school bus operation.
Of course, there is hazard, but there is hazard in
the youngster walking to schools across busy thoroughfares,
so I think these hazards tend to equate themselves out.
Q Is it educationally desirable to have parental
support for the conduct of the school program?
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A Yes, sir.
Q And is it more or less difficult in the educational
park concept to acquire and maintain that parental support than
it is in the neighborhood school?
A I think the parents are going to support the schools
regardless of the different patterns of organization that might
prevail. I would have to say in all fairness to you that the
immediate problem of obtaining community support or community
acceptance of the unitary school system would have some diffi
culties. We’d have to work at re-establishing the public con
fidence in the schools, but there is nothing unique in educa
tion. We have had experiences with these kinds of problems
before, and there are techniques for dealing with them.
Q Isn't it good to have P. T. A. activities in the
school, and mothers supporting the teachers with various
projects in the school?
A Yes. I ran a big consolidated --
Q You've answered the question yes.
A But I would like to explain that the size or the
distance of the school does not deter parent cooperation. Look
at Hall High School, and the multiple neighborhoods it serves.
I'm sure there is very adequate parental support of the prograa
and parental involvement.
Q How are you going to get the economically disadvan
taged people in the east end of Little Rock that we have
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discussed into Hall High School and Parkview High School --
and I m talking about parents -- to give that parental support
when they have economic problems and they have time problems
and the travel is obviously a hardship?
A This is a difficulty. There is the same difficult)
probably now in getting them to participate in the schools
within their neighborhood, and it's something that you have tc
work at. You might have, for instance, home visitation program
that will help these people understand how they can support
the school and support their children's education program.
This is done in many, many places.
Q Would that cost some money?
A Well, everything that you do costs money. You just
have to equate this with the benefits you expect to derive
from it.
Q Doctor, with the population being mobile and with
the phenomenon that you referred to of resegregation and the
retreat of whites from certain situations, how frequently
would you have to re-strike your balance to maintain a racial
balance in these schools if your proposal were adopted?
THE COURT: What was the last part of your question,
Mr. Light?
MR. LIGHT: How frequently he would have to re
strike the balance to maintain it, if his proposal were to be
adopted.
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hesitate to say that Little Rock would approach anywhere near
that percentage of change.
Q I'm sure you were made aware that Dr. Dodson testi
fied here Friday?
A I understood that Dr. Dodson was here.
Q Do you know Dr. Dodson?
A I have never met Dr. Dodson. I am very familiar
with his scholarship and his publications.
Q Would you agree with the testimony that he gave
when he was here Friday that whetever device or devices are
adopted in the way of a desegregation plan, that no desegregation
plan is going to work without community support?
A That's a -- I avoid absolutes, or I try to avoid
absolutes or absolute statements.
I think it would be extremely difficult for any
educational plan of any sort to be totally successful without
community support.
Q Community support is really vital to the operation
of the public school system, is it not?
A This is true of any public function, yes, sir. It
is extremely important.
Q Have you any reason at all to believe that this
community would support your plan?
A When we did our attitudinal study of this commumt>|,
I believe our conclusion was that as a means at that particular
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time> as a means of getting this problem attended to, there
would be -- I forget the exact terminology that we used - - but
a rather -- how shall I put it -- they wished they didn’t have
to do it, but they were reluctantly willing to do it in order
to get the problem solved.
Now, that was probably two years ago that we did
that attitudinal study, and what shifts have taken place, I
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couldn’t say.
Q In fact, you know that there has been a school
election in September of 1967 in which this plan was very mch
an integral part of the issues in that election, do you not?
A Yes.
Q And do you know that the candidate supporting the
plan was defeated in the election and that the bond issue
to support the plan or that was tied into the plan was defeatei
two to one?
A I'm -- I'm not sure about the total interpretation
here. I am aware of the fact to which you allude, yes, sir.
Q Doctor, in your report, you have indicated as the
result of your survey that 47.2 per cent of the white teachers
chose to teach in integrated classes over all-white classes
when given those two choices. Do you recall this?
A I don’t recall the exact figures, but I recall the
study to which you refer.
So this would leave, stated another way, 52.8 perQ
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cent of the white teachers indicated that they would prefer tc
teach in all-white classes. Is that fair, is my mathematics
are right?
A I'd have to have that table in front of me to know
exactly what the percentages were, but I think you are approxi
mately correct, yes.
Q All right. For the record, that's on page 397 of
the transcript of the prior proceeding?
A Yes.
Q Let me ask you this. Wouldn't it be an educational
disaster if 52.8 per cent of the white teachers in this systeu
did one of two things: either quit the system,or were very
unhappy in their new assignment as the result of the massive
shifting of teaching assignments?
A Yes, but I don't think you could draw the conclusion
that this wouldhappen, though.
Q Well, can we draw the conclusion that 52.8 per cent
of them were going to be unhappy even if they don't quit?
A No, I don't think so. As I believe I stated in --
THE COURT: I think you covered that before, Doctor.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: That you regarded the Little Rock
teachers professionally competent and would take a professions.
attitude toward any innovation that had to be done. Is that
right?
THE WITNESS: That's correct, and I believe the dat
would be supported in my contention.
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Q You also testified that "in your judgment fifty
per cent of the white teachers are well prepared to teach in
a proper mix of white and Negro students." Do you recall that,
Doctor?
A I agree with the statement.
Q All right. Well, do you base that judgment on the
answer to this question we have been talking about, that 47.2
per cent said they would choose the integrated class?
A Again, we have to look back a t the time we collecte
the data. But we interviewed a large number of teachers in tie
Little Rock schools as the basis for our sampling and the con
clusions drawn from it.
Q But with your judgment that fifty per cent are well
prepared, I take it that means fifty per cent are less well
prepared or maybe not prepared at all, is that correct?
A Well, I would have to say probably fifty per cent
are less well prepared.
Q Is that going to cause Mr. Parsons a good deal of
difficulty in implementing his proposed faculty desegregation
plan?
A Yes, sir, and this is why I have indicated this
morning that such a plan, to be successful, must be accompanic
by an adequate in-service education program.
Q All right, what is that to do for the teachers, .
Doctor, the in-service program? What are you going to teach
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them to do?
A Depending upon what the School Board and the admini-
stration and the teachers decide are the areas to be dealt witlii
No. 1, I would think that such a program would help
all teachers to understand the varying cultural backgrounds of
the children with whom they will deal.
I would hope that the teachers would have an oppor
tunity to review the research that has been done on school
systems that have attempted this type of massive desegregation
program so they could anticipate the problems that will arise
and be prepared to deal with the kind of problems that will
arise.
I would expect that such a program would help the
teacher to be able to deal effectively with the parents from
the different neighborhoods, different backgrounds from which
the children come and be prepared to do things, for instance,
in conference with the parents and in conferences with the
children to help to allay fears and to help to develop the
proper kinds of attitude to be supported by the school system.
Q How long is it going to take you to change the atti'
tudes that the teachers now have that this is designed to over
come?
A The in-service education program could have remarkatjle
effect rather quickly because, again, we are dealing with a
professional group, but I believe that it will have to be a
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program that will continue for sometime.
But you have already committed your -- I'm sorry.
The school district has committed itself, in accordance with
the orders of the Court, to such a program and to make what
you propose to do, what the school district proposed to do,
effective, I would say that this program is absolutely essen
tial, and this is well recognized in the profession.
Q This is because you are going to encounter a good
many new and different problems in the re-structuring of the
school system you propose and are now encountering in the
schools.
A Obviously. When you change the social situation,
you encounter new types of problems.
Q I believe as an administrator, you think it is
sound to shift teachers around every now and then just to stn
up the organization.
A There are different schools of thought on that, anc
to quote the Declaration of Independence, not for light or
transient reasons.
You would shift teachers or administrators only
with very definite purposes in mind with the hope of achieving
better educational advantages for youngsters. I would never
play the "fruit basket upset" just for the sake, as some peopl
advocate, of keeping the teachers on the ball. I think this
is ridiculous.
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We all perform best, of course, in situations where
we have the greatest security. Any shift, as I’m sure you
recognize and the School Board and Mr. Parsons recognize, does
create insecurity and part of the in-service training program
is to help the teachers rebuild the security of dealing with
the situation in which they are involved.
Q But if we're talking about a rather massive shift,
and I think we are --
A 232 teachers out of approximately 1100.
Q There's going to be a good deal of insecurity there,
isn't there?
A Yes, sir, it is a significant problem. I would not
minimize the importance of dealing adequately and being pre
pared to face the kinds of unique situations that I think
will occur, not all of which can be anticipated.
Q Is more or less learning going on if a teacher is
moved into a situation where she is not only insecure but she
is unhappy?
A My estimate would be that the teacher's mental fram
of mind has significant impact upon the child's learning. I
There are other factors that have this impact, too, that we
have to take into consideration.
Q Well, isn’t it vital to the educational process
that the teacher and students have to establish a rapport and
empathy between them?
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A Oh, yes, that's one of the reasons for the in-servic
education program.
Q And that the insecurity or unhappiness on the part
of the teacher would be an impediment to the establishment of
rapport and empathy, wouldn't it?
A Yes, that's true.
Q If either the teacher or student takes with them
into the classroom situation any hostility or tension, that's
going to create an impediment to the establishment of the
teacher-student rapport, is it not?
A On the whole, you are correct.
Q Doctor, on your educated guess that you gave us
during the earlier trial of a half million dollars to fund the
Oregon Plan, pay for your plan, that would be recurrent cost,
would it not, an annual cost?
A Of course -- I believe that is correct. Of course,
any plan is dependent on approximate conditions prevailing in
the housing patterns as prevail now.
Q All right, now, you touched on it this morning,
but I didn't follow you carefully.
Which other budgeted programs would you take that
half million dollars from in the Little Rock school system?
A I'm sorry, I guess I don't follow you.
Q Where are we going to get the money?
A Well, I -- I think we would have t0 Study the SCh°(
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Obviously, if that money were not added to the school budget,
it would cause some dislocations in order to find it within
the existing budget, and it would be a matter of priority, of
how significant and how imperative in the community is it to
do this particular job.
Q Are you aware that not only did we have the school
election in September of *67 involving the Oregon Plan but we
had another one in March of ’68 in which the money to support
Mr. Parsons' plan was withheld by the voters by a large major
ity?
A I guess I was aware of the last election.
Q Doctor, if the voters in the school district are
not going to provide the money, we just can't have a busing
plan, can we?
A I'd have to study your budget in detail to determinjs
whether or not -- again, if it's imperative to develop in
accordance with the criteria established by the Court, a uni
tary school system, then I think that the effort needs to be
made by the School Board and the administration to find the
internal budgetary adjustments, and I can't say for sure they
are possible. But my experience as an administrator would
indicate in a school district this size, it could be done.
Q Let me inquire briefly about something that I thin!
all the witnesses have been in agreement on, and that's the
Beta Complex.
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CROSS - Goldhammer 853
You would not suggest to the Court that the Beta
Complex should be superimposed upon the plan represented by
Defendant's Exhibit 22, would you?
A As I understand it, no.
Q Would create serious problems, would it not?
A To do the job in a section of the community without
its affecting the total community, yes, sir.
Q Doctor, is Defendant's Exhibit No. 22 a standard
attendance area zone map such is used all over the county to
allocate the students anong the schools?
A Pretty much so, yes, sir.
Q And a vast majority of the school districts in this
nation use this sort of system to allocate their students?
A Oh, yes.
Q And have for many years?
A Yes, sir.
Q I'm interested in the solution to de facto segrega
tion or resegregation suggested in your report at page 96,
where you indicate that there would be adopted a rule that no
more than 75 per cent of either race would be permitted to
remain in any school. Have I recalled that essentially cor
rectly?
A I believe that is correct.
Q All right. And you feel that by insuring that there
cent white students, for example, inwere no more than 75 per
CROSS - Goldhammer
t
Hall High School and, maintaining the same rule, that there
would be no more than 75 per cent Negro students in Mann High
School, would keep the school population within those schools
relatively stable?
A I'm not sure. Just --
Q What is the purpose of your 75 per cent rule?
A Oh, to maintain the racial balance within the schools
roughly proportionate to the racial balance within the com
munity.
Q All right.
A In other words, to establish a unitary school systcfcn.
Q Do you believe that if that plan were so administerjed
that one school turned out to be 75 per cent Negro and 25 per
cent white, that that would be maintained in a stable situaticjn?
A No. Oh, no, because the Negro population is the
minority population, and I believe, as the rssolution of
November 15th recognizes in the faculty desegregation, at no
time should the Negro population be in the majority.
Q I'm talking about your 75 per cent rule, though.
A I’m not sure that the 75 per cent rule applies to
the way you
The COURT: If you have it there, show it to him.
Maybe that would be helpful to him.
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q It's just two sentences, Doctor. I’ll read it to
854
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CROSS - Goldhammer 8S5
you.
"It is important to forestall the development of a
de facto pattern of segregation. By assuring that no mors
than 75 per cent of a single racial group will be certaia
of enrollment in a popular attendance center, undesirable
effects of particular residential patterns can be
reduced."
Do you recall that? Do you recall that general
language?
A The language is bad.
Q It’s been suggested in some of the other testimony
here and some of the other filings before the Court that there
is a tipping point that you reach where a school that experi-
nces a situation wherein a minority ethnic group reaches a
certain percentage, then it very quickly tends to convert to
predominantly or all of the students of that group.
A Right.
Q You have observed this phenomenon, haven't you?
A Yes.
Q It occurs all over the country -- north and south,
east and west -- doesn't it?
A Yes. Correct.
Q Do you have a professional judgment as to about
what percentage that is?
I believe, from our experiences, it will vary inA
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CROSS - Goldhammer 856
different communities. This is why, generally, the rule has
been applied that the minority group should not exceed in any
appreciable degree the percentage of minority group within the
community.
In Little Rock, I would suspect that when you get
to more than 40 per cent Negro in the school, you will have
exceeded what we call the tipping point.
Q Doctor, what support is there in professional resear<
and literature for the proposition that Negroes achieve bettei
in an integrated school?
A The research that exists pertains particularly to
the self-image that has been discovered to change among Negro
children, when they are isolated or segregated or when they aie
put in a social system where they have an opportunity to par
ticipate on terms of equality with white children.
Some of the studies, for instance, that are or
have been done by Kleinbert; some of the studies that are beirg
done by the Center for Urban Education in New York City, woulc
tend to indicate that the interaction that takes place betweer
the Negro and the white child is beneficial to both in the
establishment of improved images of one's own capacity to
achieve.
Q You mentioned two studies. Are these the only
two on which you rely?
A No. Oh, no. I can’t cite all of them. I think
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the Kleinbert, in particular, has a review of the studies in
a new book, and I have it in my briefcase, that would cite
a whole host of studies that are available.
A recent issue of the Center for Urban Education
magazine, called the "Urban Review", cites some extremely sig-j
nificant work that is being done and it's too early to draw
positive conclusions from it.
In an attempt to take youngsters who have been low
achievers and to train the teachers to expect higher levels of
achievement from them in an integrated situation, the evidencd
would point out the fact that just the fact that higher expecd
tations are established for the youngsters encourages them to
achieve at higher levels.
Q Don't some of the widely known and widely read
studies and research indicate that the racial composition of a|
school does not in its affect the achievement of the students?^
A There have been some studies, and we have some
questions about some of these studies, and
Q Aren't there about as many different conclusions
as there are studies, Doctor?
A The preponderance of the opinion of researchers in
the behavorial sciences who have made adequate studies on
these problems would support the contention that I made. Now,
you had Dr. Dodson here, and he is far more of a scholar of
this literature than I am, and I suspect that this is a question
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CROSS - Goldhammer 858
you raised with him.
Q How do you strike the balance on where the prepon
derance lies? Are you talking about how many of them have
spoken on it?
A No, no. I think from the standpoint of the repute
of the scientist, the consistency with which the most sophis
ticated scientific studies have come up to the same conclusiorj.
Q You are familiar, of course, with the Coleman Report,
A Yes.
Q Are you in agreement with the conclusions it reachdd?
A Well, there -- that's a terribly diffuse report, arjd
I would say that on the whole I agree. I have talked with Dr,
Coleman about his report. On the whole, I agree with it,
although I wouldn't that that to be confused with saying that
I agree with the whole thing.
Q You know that after it was published, it was cited
in support of the proposition that it established that the
racial composition of the school did have a direct bearing on
the achievement of the students?
A. Yes, sir.
Q And that Dr. Coleman repudiated that interpretatioi
and said that his statistics didn't support it?
A Yes, sir. But that's a very complex statistical
argument, one I wouldn’t want to get into this morning.
q Is there a difference of opinion among those m
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CROSS - Goldhammer 859
your profession about whether the neighborhood school concept
is a desirable thing to have and to keep?
A Well, obviously, there is, I'm sure from the testi
mony; although I do not know what Dr. Stimbert stated, my
suspicion is that because of the position that he occupies, he
is a very strong advocate of the neighborhood school concept.
School administrators generally tend to be very
strong advocates of the neighborhood school concept, primarily
because of the fact that it's the easiest way to assign kids
to buildings.
Q Are you a member of the American Association of
School Administrators?
A For many years.
Q Were you a member in --
A I've been a member since 1945 or 1946.
Q Are you familiar with the report of the Educational
Policies Commission of that organization, made in the N. E. A.
Journal in October of 1965 with respect to the neighborhood
school?
A I am *• I'm not sure about that documentation. I
am aware of the resolution of the N.A.S.A. in support of the
neighborhood school concept.
Q And you find yourself in disagreement with your
fellow members of that organization, is that right?
A Absolutely, on this point.
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CROSS - Goldhammer 860
Q All right.
A You see, this is -- all I ask school administrator;
to do is demonstrate something that you can do in the neigh
borhood school that you cannot educationally do in a larger
school unit, and this they can't do. This is an emotionalizec
reaction to the situation.
MR. LIGHT: Your Honor, I move that be struck as
not responsive.
THE COURT: It was a little argumentative. Perhap;
you invited him to defend it.
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q Are you familiar with and perhaps acquainted with
Dr. James Bryant Conant?
A Yes.
Q Is he now and has he for many years been an out
standing authority in the field of American education?
A Well, here's another controversial point. James
Conant is one of the most celebrated and reputable chemists
in the United States. He was an outstanding president of
Harvard University.
As far as his being an authority on public education,
that is highly debatable. He has done some studies, but
well, for instance, his studies on public education -- the
study on the senior high schools, his study on the junior higl
schools, his essay where he uses the term "social dynamite"
I can't think of the name of the book, none of these -
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CROSS - Goldhammer 861
Q "Slums and Suburbs"?
A Yes. "Slums and Suburbs", thank you.
none of these, if submitted as research in sup
port of a doctoral dissertation, would get to first base with
a doctoral committee because it's pretty doggone poor research
However, Dr. Conant is a social philosopher now,
after his experience as president of Harvard and his tour of
duty for the government in Europe.
Q I take it you're familiar with "Slums and Suburbs"
we just mentioned.
A Yes, it's been some time since I've seen it, but I
think I'm familiar with just about everything Dr. Conant has
written.
Q Well, some of the text of that is already in the
record, and I'm not going to repeat it here today, but one of
the conclusions he reaches in that publication is that it is
his belief, based on his research, that "A satisfactory edu
cation can be provided in an all-Negro school with the expendi
ture of more money for needed staff and facilities.
Are you familiar with that conclusion that he has
expressed in that document?
A You have brought it back to mind, yes, sir.
Q All right. Do you find yourself in disagreement
with that?
A There I find myself in qualified disagreement. To
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CROSS - Goldhammer 862
do the job that Conant says to do would cost more money, in
my estimation, than busing the youngsters into desegregated
schools. So again, you’re coming to the question you have
raised about where are you going to jpt the money.
I think it would be a cheaper and a better solution
to desegregate the enrollment rather than provide the massive
remedial programs that would be needed for what Dr. Conant
suggests.
Q But there has not come to your mind, since you've
been on the stand and since I asked you the question earlier
today, any school system in the country with a proportion of
Negro students as large as thirty per cent such as exists in
the Little Rock school system, that has achieved and then
maintained a racial balance in every school in the system, is
this correct?
A I believe that is correct.
Q If we get your plan, Doctor, we are going to be
out in the forefront, aren't we?
A Oh, yes. I said this to the School Board. This
would be a pioneering -- .
Q Doctor, I hand you a document which is a defendant s
exhibit - - I don't recall the number -- but it is the Metroplcn
document, and I refer you to page 33 where there is a chart.
Are you familiar with the material contained in
that chart as standard guides used by school planners and
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CROSS - Goldhammer 863
administrators? Pertaining to desirable travel distance and
desirable size of various types of schools?
A Yes.
Q Is that a rather standard set of figures?
A It's old, and I'm not sure how it would apply now.
School buildings is not my major area of concern, but it is --
it's ten years old.
Q Are the agencies identified on that chart as the
source reputable professional agencies in the educational
business? You need not read them out because that is in the
record, but if you will just look at them, please.
A Yes.
Q All right. And assuming, if you will, that we are
going to have a neighborhood school concept in any particular
school district, are those good standards?
THE COURT: Are they what, Mr. Light?
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q Good standards. Are they desirable standards and
educationally sound?
A If you maintain a neighborhood school concept,
there are other factors that have to be taken into considera
tion, obviously, but as a rule of thumb, I suppose this is as
good as any, as any that I know of.
Q Doctor, would you agree that there's just an awful
lot of diversity of opinion among professional educators about
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CROSS - Goldhainmer 864
the desirability or usefulness or lack of usefulness in main
taining racial balance among schools?
A I think the sentiment is pretty well polarized on
that issue. I believe that --
Q At how many poles?
A Well, probably pretty much centered around one pole .
If you put the question this way to a professional educator:
if you have your choice, which would you develop in developing
a school system, would you develop a racially balanced or a
racially imbalanced, a unitary or a dual school system, I
believe that the educators with overwhelming magnitude would
accept the balanced school system.
Q Are you aware of any such poll that has been con
ducted of American educators?
A No, sir.
Q Is ’’Nation's Schools" a publication that you are
familiar with?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you read it?
A Occasionally. It is not a research journal, and it
is one of those things that you read as a school administrator
in order to learn some of the tricks of the trade. It is
designed particularly for selling equipment, and I don t buy
equipment.
Q Let me see if I can refresh your recollection,
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CROSS - Goldhammer 86S
Doctor, concerning a poll conducted by that publication in
October, 1963, and the result of which 84 per cent of the
school administrators responding indicated that they favored
the retention of the neighborhood school, even though it
resulted in de facto segregation over busing students --
A Who was polled?
Q Let me look at it so I can be specific, Doctor.
"A four per cent proportional sampling of 16,000
school administrators in continental United States with
a 35 per cent response.”
A Of school administrators.
Q Yes.
iA Now, a four per cent sampling of 16,000 admini
strators is a very, very small sample, as I’m sure you would
recognize.
No. 2, I would assume from my experience that school
administrators would constitute a pretty biased group as far
as the concept of the neighborhood school.
Q I think you've said something two ways or I heard
it two ways, and I'd like to get it straight on the record,
please, Doctor.
A Sure.
Q You have indicated that the majority of the educato|i
in the country, you think, would agree with you on this proposi
tion.
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CROSS - Goldhammer 866
A No, wait a minute. I said that the majority of the
educators, if given the preference, would prefer a unitary
rather than a dual school system.
Q Are you counting these school administrators and
educators?
A Yes, sir.
Q They make up the largest body of educators, I sup
pose, in the country, do they not?
A No, the teaching -- the public school teachers is
the largest body by far.
Q Now, I want to go back to what evidence you have
that you can cite us that your judgment on this is correct,
that the bulk of them would agree with you.
A You must remember that in 1966-67, the reason that
I couldn’t spend full-time on the Arkansas study was that I wa;
doing a study of school superintendents for the United States
Office of Education, and our sampling was very small at that
time, too. However, if you look at that report, you will find
that there was a private professional judgment being expressed
by school administrators and a public opinion being expressed
by school administrators.
In private, school administrators were saying to us
that as educators, "we realize that this is the situation that
must prevail." For instance, they complained bitterly in the
public media about the schools having to bear the brunt of
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CROSS - Goldhammer 867
solving our pressing social problems in this country.
But in private, in our interviews with them -- and
we have this on record -- they were saying to us "this is
essential in order for the schools to perform their educational
tasks effectively and efficiently."
Now, on the basis of our study, and we studied
administrators in five basic centers in the United States --
around San Francisco, around Chicago, around New York, around
Oklahoma City, and one other place, around Atlanta, Georgia --
this is the basic pattern that prevailed.
I am not speaking as an individual who has not both
done a study of the situation and at the same time spends most
of my waking hours talking with school administrators in the
various parts of the country.
Q You know Mr. Floyd Parsons and Dr. E. C. Stimbert
personally, do you not?
A Yes, sir.
Q And I am sure your counsel has apprised you of the
fact that both have been on the stand and testified in this
proceeding in favor of the retention of the neighborhood schoo.
cncept.
A I heard Mr. Parsons in August.
Q You are not suggesting to the Court by virtue of
what you have just said that those gentlemen would get on this
stand and under oath tell the Court that they entertained a
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CROSS - Goldhammer 868
professional judgment that they do not?
A We're talking about two different things. I have
been alluding to the problem of racial balance, and you have
been alluding to the problem of neighborhood schools.
I don't think there is any difference in the stance
of school administrators generally on the issue of neighbor
hood schools. They are in favor of neighborhood schools.
Q I could parade school superintendents on here for
a week, if the Court permitted, and get that result.
A Or longer, yes, sir.
MR. LIGHT: No further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, do you have anything furthe
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Dr. Goldhammer, you said a few minutes ago that a
Mr. Kleinberg --
A Kleinberg. Otto Kleinberg. K-l-e-i-n-b-e-r-g, I
believe.
Q Do you recall the name of the fext that he wrote th,
you referred to?
A It's the book you're holding -- no, that isn't the
book, but the articles to which I refer are in that book that
you're holding in your hand.
Q So that the Court would be in a position to refer
to these, would you mind stating that?
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REDIRECT - Goldhammer 869
A This is "Education and Social Crisis Perspectives
on Teaching Disadvantaged Youth" edited by Keach and others.
Dr. Kleinberg's review of the research begins on
page 162 of this book.
MR. WALKER: We have no further questions.
THE COURT: You may step down, Doctor.
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: I suppose the Doctor may be excused.
MR. WALKER: Yes, Your Honor, and I think we may
be able to finish our case within a very few minutes.
Your Honor, I'd like to call one school principal
just to establish the proposition that there is significant
transporting of pupils in the Little Rock Public Schools now
via private transportation systems.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WALKER: I don't think there is a basic dis
agreement between counsel on this point, but I would like the
court to know there is considerable transportation now.
THE COURT: All right..
MR. WALKER: Mr. Hawkins.
Whereupon,
EDWIN HAWKINS
having been called as a witness on behalf of plaintiffs, and
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
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DIRECT - Hawkins
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Hawkins, would you state to the Court whether
pupils are transported by city transportation to and from the
Horace Mann High School each day and if you know approximately
what number of pupils are so transported, and from where?
A Pupils are transported to and from Horace Mann each
day. I'm not in a position to say the number. A large per
centage of our students ride city buses to and from high school
but I’m not in a position to say the number of students that
are transported.
Q Would you know generally whether the same is true at
the Booker Junior High School, which is located near Horace
Mann?
A I know in terms of the buses that serve both schools
-- I know the city bus company serves both schools and there
are buses that leave Booker and brings students to Booker and
unloads and brings the rest to Horace Mann. I do not know the
number of students or the percentage.
Q Do you know whether the school district, through th;
Public Law 89-10 program, helps to pay the transportation costs
of pupils who participate within that program?
A Yes. The Little Rock School District does provide
through Title I funds transportation tickets for students who
qualify under that program.
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CROSS - Hawkins 871
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q Do you have any notion of what proportion of the
students that ride the city buses to those schools qualify for
that Title I assistance?
A I don’t remember exactlyv I'd be airaid to say.
I'd have to get the records. I just don't recall.
Q Other than those who would qualify for the Title I
assistance, the other students pay for their own transportatioi
when they get on the buses, don't they?
A That's right.
MR. LIGHT: Thank you.
MR. WALKER: No more questions.
THE COURT: You may step down.
(Witness excused.)
MR. WALKER: At this time, Your Honor, I would like
to formulate a proposal which I think Mr. Friday will agree
with and, if not, he may amend it or state his disagreement.
That is at present --
THE COURT: Would you step over there, Mr. Walker?
MR. WALKER: At present, a number of pupils are
transported to and from the various schools, public schools in
the Little Rock School District, by bus pursuant to contracts
between the parents of those pupils and either the Houston-
Bigelow bus line or the Twin-City Transit Company.
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872
THE COURT: The last named bus, so it won't be con
fused, is the private company, but it furnishes what we call
city bus transportation.
MR. WALKER: Yes, sir, and that a large number of
pupils are provided with student identification cards by the
Twin-City Transit Company wherein those pupils are given dis
count rates for use of the Twin-City Transit system during
school hours, the regular fare being 25 cents for a person,
but for students who have their I. D. cards, identification
cards, the amount is 15 cents during school hours; that the
Twin-City Transit Company distributes approximately 21 to 22
thousand such cards to the Little Rock School District who,
in turn, distributes those cards to the pupils in the system;
that a number of pupils are transported by bus to most of the
schools in the District and they pay their own way unless thei
costs are paid for them by Public Law 89-10 funds.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, let me respond to that, ar
maybe we can expedite.
Just for the record, defendant's position is that
this is irrelevant and immaterial to any issue before the
court, but we agree that all students, with the exception of
this government-supported program, get to school by means
other than school-financed means, such as walking, private
transportation, public bus transportation, or I suppose in
certain instances maybe they get together and charter a bus.
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873
I don't want to make Mr. Walker bring a witness in
to prove this type thing with this statement. I do not know
percentages. There is, I am advised by the administrative
staff, a student rate on bus transportation.
Now, with this background, it seems to me like, Mr.
Walker, on what I have stated, prefaced by my statement concerjninr
relevancy and materiality, does this accomplish what you want
to accomplish and not bring a witness?
MR. WALKER: I think it does, Your Honor. We have
no way of proving the exact number of pupils who ride the
buses.
THE COURT: Nobody knows. That's right.
MR. LIGHT: Your Honor, I don't want the record to
stand on this 21,000. There's nothing like ) students
that ride the buses to school.
THE COURT: I'm sure that's right.
MR. WALKER: The figure is simply, Your Honor, so
there will be no misunderstanding about it, a reflection of
the number of identification passes that are handed out or
distributed to the Little Rock school system for distribution
to the pupils within the school system.
I think that this reflects the intention of the busl
c ompany to make sure that each pupil has an opportunity to get]
cut-rate rides in the event that he needs them.
THE COURT: What you're saying is that it is a
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874
solicitation of business by the city bus system but is no
indication as to how many ride it.
With that understanding, I will accept it.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, the plaintiff rests.
MR. LIGHT: Your Honor, in response to the Court's
request in chambers, we now offer the Court the explanation oi
the Beta Complex.
THE COURT: All right, let it be filed as Court
Exhibit No. 1, because I requested.
(The document was marked Court
Exhibit No. 1 for identification,
and was received in evidence.)
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, there is one page of an
exhibit that remains to be provided to the Court by counsel.
THE COURT: What is it, Mr. Walker?
MR. WALKER: That is -- it goes with the census
tract figures -- and it sets out what the average income is
of residents in the District pursuant to census tract document
It's a one-page document provided by Metroplan.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WALKER: We would like, Your Honor, to have an
opportunity to have several days to formulate what we considei
to be specific prayers for relief. We would like the Court tc
know exactly what we want before the Court issues a ruling.
THE COURT: I have no intention of ruling today.
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I indicated I might, but this is a little more complicated and
I want to consider it and study it.
Now, I do not know what your plans are. I suppose
we are about to adjourn. I know that Dr. Goldhammer -- or I
think I know that he needs to catch a plan.
Would it be convenient for me to see counsel about
ten minutes after we adjourn, or do you have other things you
need to do? We can discuss procedures.
MR. FRIDAY: I have one short witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I'm sorry. I didn't realize that.
We will take a ten minute recess now.
(A short recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Friday.
MR. FRIDAY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Is there any confusion about that last
page Mr. Walker offered?
MR. WALKER:
MR. KAPLAN:
We have it now, Your Honor.
The data describes median family incon e
by census tract for Pulaski County for the year 1960. It is
correlated to the census tract already in the record. That’s
census tract 1 through 43.
The data cones from Metroplan office in Little Rod
and is correlated between the Metroplan and the City-County
Data Book, published by the United States Bureau of the Censu
This is the sane data as was introduced in Judge Henley’s
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court in connection with the jury selection case.
876
THE COURT:
here.
Well, now, let's don't get that involve
MR. KAPLAN: And that is basically all about the
data and where it's from.
THE COURT: Is that a new exhibit?
THE CLERK: Plaintiff’s Exhibit 7.
(The document referred to was
marked Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 7
for identification, and was
received in evidence.)
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, since Dr. Barron testified
to this program and having had general testimony on it, I woul
like to deal in specifics.
These are excerpts from the minutes of the December
12, 1968, school board meeting which sets forth the proposed
center jointly sponsored by the Little Rock School District
and the University of Arkansas on early childhood education,
which is the imaginative program Dr. Barron testified to.
THE COURT: It's a program that -- what?
MR. FRIDAY: Dr. Barron testified concerning this,
and I wanted the record to reflect that program he was talking
about. I offer this as Defendant's Exhibit 31.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(Thereupon, the document referred
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DIRECT - Woods 877
to was marked Defendant's Exhibit
No. 31 for identification, and
was received in evidence.)
MR. LIGHT: Mr. Dan Woods, please.
Your Honor, while Mr. Woods is on his way to the
stand, on Plaintiff's Exhibit 7, which are the census tracts,
I think the record should reflect that some of these census
tracts are within the Little Rock School District and some are
not. They are not all within the Little Rock School District.
THE COURT: All right, it's received.
Thereupon,
DANIEL H. WOODS
having been called as a witness by counsel for defendants,
and having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testi
fied as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q State your name, please.
A Daniel H. Woods.
Q Mr. Woods, you are the same Mr. Woods who is a mem
ber of the Little Rock School Board and who has previously
testified in this proceeding* is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right. Mr. Woods, I want to get in a little
background information on you that is not presently in the
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d i r e c t Woods 878
record.
Where are you employed?
A At the United States Time Corporation, in Little
Rock.
Q All right, let me digress a moment.
Even if it is in the record, for continuity, when
were you elected to the Little Rock School Board?
A September, 1967.
Q And you have served since that time?
A I have served since that time, yes, sir.
Q In what capacity are you employed at U. S. Time
Corporation?
A I'm Industrial Relations Manager. I've served in
that capacity since 1954.
Q While serving in that capacity, has it been your
responsibility to deal with the matter concerning equal employ
ment opportunities for members of the white and Negro races?
A Yes, sir, this is my responsibility for our company.
Q All right. Just briefly, for background information,
would you tell what you have done in this area?
A Yes, sir. A good number of years ago -- I can t
remember exactly -- our company embarked upon a program of
equal employment opportunity in which we set out a program
development for both hiring, promotion, and to try to develop
full employment opportunities for all races that are in
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DIRECT - Woods
employment area.
879
MR. WALKER: Just a minute, Your Honor.
We would think that in the interest of time, we wou'.
stipulate that Mr. Woods, for whatever it is worth, works in
a responsible position at U. S. Time, and that U. S. Time
presently has no problem with regard to employment discrimi
nation. We don’t think that is relevant here.
THE COURT: Well, I don’t know what he is getting to
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, good faith in three or
four particulars has been brought out to the point that we
anticipate and we would like at least the opportunity to make
the record --
d
THE COURT: Well, we haven't confined the testimony
to relevant material so far. 1 won't start now.
MR. FRIDAY: Thank you, Your Honor.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Now, Mr. Woods, I want the specifics. What have
been the results, and relate it primarily to matters you have
had supervision of, what are the results? Give me total
employment figures.
A The entire program was under my supervision. Our
total employment at the present time is approximately 3500 in
three locations in Little Rock, of which 975 are Negroes.
Q Slightly under a third.
A Right around 27 per cent. Of these, less than one
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DIRECT - Woods 880
hundred are in what you would call service jobs — porters,
laborers, what have you.
Certainly, the bulk of them are semi-skilled opera
tors which is, of course, the bulk of our employment. But we
have also, through our own development because they were not
available to hire, have developed supervisors, skilled crafts
men, semi-skilled craftsmen, technicians throughout the plant.
Q All right, Mr. Woods, one other question on it.
Have you received any awards because of your endeavc
in this field?
A Yes, we received -- I believe it was in 1965; I
can't recall the year -- the Urban League Award for Equal
Employment Opportunity.
I might add that of my own staff of four girls, one
of them is a Negro girl.
Q All right. Now, turning back to the matters here,
Mr. Drummond has stated both in testimony and in his statement
set forth in Defendant’s Exhibit No. 27, that the Board unani
mously established guidelines for Mr. Parsons and his staff
concerning the coming up with a desegregation proposal.
A Yes, sir.
Q Is that correct?
A That was in the September meeting.
Q Would you state what those guidelines were?
A Those guidelines were, No. 1, that the plan be
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DIRECT - Woods 881
educationally sound; No. 2, that the plan be economically
feasible; and, No. 3, that the plan be -- well, coincide with
the Court's directives of last summer.
Q Have there been any other guidelines established
than those you have just named?
A No, sir.
Q Have there been any other directives given to Mr.
Parsons, either by you individually or, to your knowledge, by
the Board or any other member of the Board?
A
one else.
None by me personally and, to my knowledge, by no
Q Now, Mr. Woods, there has been testimony here con-
cerning the really only disagreement by the Board, and that
was between an October 10 proposal of Mr. Parsons and the
desegregation plan that is now before the Court, specifically
that one set forth in Defendant's Exhibit 22 here.
testimony.
You have been in the courtroom and have heard this
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, how did you vote?
A I voted for the plan exhibited in Defendant's
Exhibit 22.
Q That is submitted here.
A Yes, sir.
Q You did not support Mr. Drummond's motion for the
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DIRECT - Woods 882
October 10 proposal.
Q No, sir.
Q All right, why did you so vote?
A The proposal of October 10th embraced gerrymandering
of one school. I could not support a gerrymandering proposal,
especially since it related only to one school, and since I
felt that it would not fit into the Court order that we had
last summer of providing just "schools".
Also, in this particular plan, the gerrymandering
reached within a few blocks of Central High School, which com
pletely removed any concept of neighborhood schools, and it
also removed the Briarwood and University Park areas from the
Hall area, which we felt should remain in the Hall area since
this is, to the best information we have, going to be an inte
grated neighborhood which would provide us with the proper
type of integration within the concept that the school system
is working for integrating Hall High School.
But we could not, in using the gerrymandering,
include both the University Park and the area included in the
Ocoober 10th paper.
Q Specifically, since good faith is an issue, were yoj
or to your knowledge any member of the Board that voted with
you, were you motivated by any desire to establish, as one
w itness has described it, a racist school system or to hold
integration to a minimum?
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DIRECT - Woods 883
A Absolutely not.
MR. FRIDAY: That is all, Your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you know, Mr. Woods, whether or not there has
been filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission at
any time during the past three years a complaint charging U. S,
Time with employment discrimination? Do you know?
A There’s one complaint been filed.
Q During that period of time?
A The same complaint was filed with both the Equal
Employment Commission and with the Contracts Compliance Divisioi
Both of them were investigated by both agencies and we were
held correct by both agencies.
Q Do you know whether there are any complaints now
pending?
A I know of none pending right now.
Q All right. Now, let me ask you did you first seek
office in opposition to Mr. James E. Coates in 1966?
A I think it's James M. Coates. And 1967, it is.
Q All right. Is it true that Mr. Coates supported the
implementation of the Oregon Plan?
A This was my understanding that he supported most of
it. There are parts of it that I understand he did not support
Q Would you mind stating generally what the platform
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CROSS - Woods 884
was that you campaigned on in opposition to Mr. Coates?
A Yes, sir. You're taxing my memory, but I had a
six-point program which was, No. 1 -- well, I won't go into
the numbers; I can't remember the order. But it was the
preservation of the neighborhood school concept, the expansior
of our compensatory education program, the further development
of Metropolitan High School and its expansion, the opposition
to the Oregon Report, and -- I can't recall the other two
points at the moment.
Q Would you say the principal point in your platform,
Mr. Woods, was your opposition to the Oregon Report?
A We-1, now, you reminded me what the other -- what
one of the other points was.
My principal point was that education should be the
primary objective of the school board, so this was in my --
this would be my primary point in my platform.
Q And the opposition to the Oregon Report.
A This was the sixth item, but it was an important
one, I'm sure, in my election.
Q Isn't it true that after the Oregon Plan was defeat;
by the voters that Mr. Parsons presented his plan then, and
that you voted in opposition -- that is, as a Board member
in opposition to the Parsons Plan or the basic provisions of
the Parsons Plan?
Well, your question said "when the Oregon Plan wasA
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CROSS - Woods 885
defeated by the voters."
The voters never voted on the Oregon Plan other th:n
speaking through the election of Board members.
In answer to the second part of your question, yes,
I did vote against the Parsons Plan.
Q I see. Now, one other point.
You said you did not want to gerrymander, you say,
in order to cause more Negro pupils to be brought into the
Hall High School attendance --
A No, sir. No, sir, that's not what I said. I said
I did not want to gerrymander, period, for any purpose.
Q You said that you did not want to remove University
Park and Briarwood from the Hall High School attendance area,
is that true?
A That is correct. They are in closer proximity, or
at least Briarwood is in closer proximity, to the Hall High
School, and University North, we felt, should logically go ini o
the Hall area.
Q You do know that there are no Negroes in Briarwood
don't you?
A None to my knowledge, Mr. Walker.
Q And do you know whether or not there are any high
school age Negro pupils in University Park NOrth?
A When you say "high school age", no, sir, I do not
know. I do not know what age any of them are. I do know the: <
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CROSS - Woods 886
are Negroes living there, though.
Q Mr. Woods, is it your understanding that Little
Rock operates at present at the high school level a neighbor
hood school basis?
A Yes, I would call our concept a neighborhood concept
throughout the system, bearing in mind that we only have four
high schools that have to house the students from a large area
Q In your preparation of this particular plan and the
drawing of these particular lines, did --
A Mr. Walker, I didn't draw the lines. I approved tbje
as they were drawn by Mr. Parsons and his staff.
Q I see. Did you request or did any Board member, tc
your knowledge, request Mr. Parsons to draw the lines in such
a way as to bring about a greater degree of racial balance in
each school?
A Specifically, our instructions to Mr. Parsons were
incorporated in our minutes of the September 27th meeting.
Q Well, I'm asking you generally in your discussions
with Mr. Parsons, did you instruct him to present an alter
native plan which would produce in each one of the schools set
forth on that particular map greater racial balance in those
schools?
A No, sir, we did not ask him to present us a plan
with racial balance.
Q I see. Did you at any time direct Mr. Parsons to
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IS
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oTTT
the effect that racial balance was a desired objective ot the
Board and that he should be conscious of this in formulating
his attendance lines?
A Of :racial balance?
Q Yes •
A No, sir.
MR. WALKER: No more questions.
MR. FRIDAY: That's all, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, Mr. Woods.
(Witness <
MR. FRIDAY: Defendants rest, Your Honor.
MR. WALKER: Plaintiffs rest, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, that concludes the
and the record will be closed.
(Discussion off the record.)
THE COURT: The Clerk has called my attention to
the fact that I reserved ruling on Plaintiff's Exhibit 5,
Model Cities Data. Frankly, I don't recall what the discussi
was about.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, it is really very insig
nificant, except that it sets out the city's description of
the Model Cities area, and it also purports to state that the
schools in the Model Cities area are in need of replacement or
serious renovation.
MR. FRIDAY: As long as it goes in that that is an
c 1
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888
excerpt from the application,
than that, that is all right.
and we are not admitting any moi
THE COURT: It will be received.
(The document heretofore marked
Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 5 for
identification was received in
evidence.)
MR. ROTENBERRY: Your Honor, there is also one
other thing, this 1960 Comprehensive Metroplan publication.
I think the record remained open for our reproduction of desig
nated portions.
THE COURT: I thought that they put in some of it
and I thought that you would be permitted to put in anything
you wanted to, is that right?
MR. ROTENBERRY: Can that be done later?
THE COURT: It may be done, but let's do it next
week. It will be part of the same exhibit -- or will it?
MR. WALKER: It won't make any difference, Your
Honor, how it comes in. It can be Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 8,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WALKER: We would like to present, even though
it would not be a part of this record as such, data m support
or evidence in support of the counsel fees, and we would
like to have this done.
889
THE COURT: That is premature at this time, Mr.
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W a l k e r .
MR. WALKER: I understand, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Is there anything further.
All right, the record is closed. Court is now
adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 11:05 o'clock, a.m., the above-entitled
proceedings were concluded.)
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890
C E R T I F I C A T E
I, Dean C. Ragan, do hereby certify that I am the
Official Court Reporter for the United States District Court,
Eastern District of Arkansas, Western Division; that on the
dates of December 19, 20, and 24, 1968, I was present in court
and reported the proceedings herein in the case of Delores
Clark, et al, v. The Board of Education of the Little Rock
School District, et al, before the Honorable Gordon E. Young,
Judge of said Court; and that the foregoing pages of typewritt
matter constitute a true and correct transcription of the
proceedings and testimony as reported by me at the time and
thereafter reduced to typewritten form.
WITNESS my hand this 13th day of January, 1969.
Dean C. Ragan, Reporter
in
891
MEMORANDUM OPINION
f i l e d
MAY 8 1969
yv. h.
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
uucKK
t « P - riei K
DELORES CLARK, et al PLAINTIFFS
v. No. LR-64-C-155
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, et al DEFENDANTS
YOLANDA G. TOWNSEND, a minor, et al PLAINTIFF-INTERVENORS
LITTLE ROCK CLASSROOM TEACHERS
ASSOCIATION INTERVENORS
MEMORANDUM OPINION
HISTORY OF THIS CASE.
On November 4, 1964, five Negro children, joined by their
parents, filed their complaint in this case, seeking to enjoin
the Little Rock School Board from refusing them admission to
certain Little Rock schools because of their race. Aside from
the inability of these children to attend the schools of their
choice, the principal attack in the complaint was directed
against the Little Rock Board's use of the Arkansas Pupil
Assignment Law. The plaintiffs urged in their complaint that
attendance zones be created by the Board on a non-racial basis.
On April 23, 1965, the Board filed a "Supplemental Report,"
requesting the abandonment of the Board's use of the Arkansas
Pupil Assignment Plan and the adoption of a "Freedom of Choice"
plan.
The plaintiffs, in their memorandum brief filed February 4,
1965, stated that (quoting Northcross v. Board of Education,
302 F.2d 818, 823) :
892
Memorandum Opinion
"Minimal requirements for non-racial schools
are geographic zoning, according to the
capacity and facility of the buildings and
admission to a school according to residence
as a matter of right."
In plaintiffs' response to the Board's motion to proceed
under the freedom of choice plan, plaintiffs again asked that
the Court require the Board to generally reassign all pupils
to geographic attendance areas.
On January 14, 19 6 6, the court filed a memorandum opinion
approving the freedom of choice plan proposed by the Board.
Plaintiffs then appealed to the United States Court of
Appeals for the Eighth Circuit, which affirmed the freedom of
choice plan, with a minor modification as to sufficiency of
notice to be given to pupils and their parents, and with the
further requirement that the Board take more positive and
definitive action in regard to desegregation of faculty and
staff. Clark v. Board of Education of Little Rock School Dist.,
369 F.2d 661 (8 Cir. 1966).
On June 25, 1968, plaintiffs filed a motion for further
relief, asking, among other things, that the Board be required
to submit a plan for the assignment of all students upon the
basis of a unitary system of non-racial geographic attendance
zones, or a plan for the consolidation of grades or schools or
both. Several parties sought leave to intervene in the action.
One group was permitted to intervene as additional parties plain
tiff; the Little Rock Classroom Teachers Association was als<p
permitted to intervene, although it took no active part in the
proceedings; the other motions for leave to intervene were denied
On July 17, 1968, the Board filed its answer to the motion
for further relief. Essentially, it stated that after the United
States Supreme Court decisions in the Greene, Rane* and Monroe
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893
Memorandum Opinion
cases (May 27, 1968) the School Board had appointed a committee
to determine what feasible changes and alternatives to the
desegregation procedures of the District were available— that
this committee had met several times, but before it could con
clude its work plaintiffs’ motion was filed.
It stated that the committee would continue its work, and
expressed the commitment of the Board to proceed affirmatively
in good faith, etc.
On July 18, 1968, the Court wrote a letter to counsel for
the School Board, as follows:
"I consider the answer of the defendants to
the motion for further relief as essentially
meaningless and an evasion of the Board's
responsibilities under the law.
"A hearing on the motion for further relief
is set for Thursday, August 15, at 9:30 a.m.
"Because of the short time between now and
the new school year, I suggest that the Board
and its staff immediately begin the formula
tion of a plan for the division of the school
system into compulsory attendance areas and
the re-assignment of the faculty to each
school in accordance with the ratio between
the races in the system.
"This letter shall be made a part of the record.
A hearing was held on the motion and answer on August 15
and 16, 1968. At the conclusion of the second day, plaintiffs
counsel moved to adjourn the hearing to permit the defendant
Board to submit a revised plan.
As required by the Court, the defendant Board filed its
report and revised plan on November 15, 1968. The case was set
for trial on December 19, and testimony was heard for three more
days— December 19, 20 and 24, 1968.
This memorandum opinion is based on the pleadings and the
hearings held on those dates.
-3-
894
Memorandum Opinion
THE PROPOSED PLAN OF THE LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL RORpn FTT.Fn
NOVEMBER 15. 1969.
The proposed plan is in the form of a resolution, adopted by
the Board of Directors of the Little Rock School Board on
November 15, 1969. It is as follows:
"BE IT RESOLVED by the Board of Directors
of the Little Rock School District of Pulaski
County, Arkansas:
‘‘That the following desegregation plan
for the Little Rock School District for the
1969-70 school year be adopted aijd presented
to the Honorable Gordon Young, U. S. District
Judge, pursuant to his Order of August 16,
1968, entered in the case of Delores Clark,
et al, v. Board of Education of Little Rock
School District, et al."
"A. Faculty
"The Little Rock Public Schools will
assign and reassign teachers for the 1969-70
school year to achieve the following:
"1. The number of Negro teachers
within each school of the district will range
from a minimum of 15% to a maximum of 45%.
"2. The number of white teachers
within each school of the district will range
from a minimum of 55% to a maximum of 85%.
"B. Students
"The Little Rock School District will
be divided into geographic attendance zones
for elementary, junior high, and senior high
schools as indicated on the accompanying map.
All students residing in the designated zones
will attend the appropriate school in that
zone with the following exceptions:
"1. The Metropolitan Vocational-
Technical High School will serve students from
the entire district. Students will indicate
their desire to attend Metropolitan before May
1969. Actual assignments will be determine
from objective test results on one or more
vocational-technical aptitude inventories.
1,
"2. All teachers, who desire to do
so, may enroll their children in the schools
where they are assigned to teach.
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895
Memorandum Opinion
"3. All students presently in the
8th, 10th, and 11th grades will be required
to choose between the school that they now
attend or the appropriate school located in
the zone of residence for the 1969-70 school
year."
description of the little rock school district.
Ibe Little Rock School District is semi-rectangular geo
graphically, running from east to west. Its border on the north
is the Arkansas River, which separates Little Rock from North
Little Rock. On the south side lies what is called the Fourche
River bottoms. This is'a low area and not suitable for the
erection of homes. It is, therefore, an effective barrier to
expansion of the District southward until the western part of
the school area is approached. The eastern part is commercial
and industrial in nature. Thus, the District is narrow north
and south until the western end of the District is approached,
where the Arkansas River makes a northwesterly turn, and the
end of the Fourche bottom area is reached. This extreme western
area and the southwestern area furnish the only basis for
expansion of the City and the School District, and it is these
areas where nearly all residential construction has occurred for
a number of years.
The center of the District, including the Main Street of
Little Rock and the streets adjacent thereto, were formerly
occupied by higher income citizens, mostly white. In the last
few years a great many of them have moved to the western part
of the City and District, and Negroes have moved to the center
of the City to occupy these vacated homes.
in Superintendent Floyd W. Parsons’ Desegregation Report,
Df.Ex. 10, he states, pp. 4 and 5, that housing patterns in
the City are largely segregated. There has been some infiltration!
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( 896
Memorandum Opinion
by Negroes into the historically identified white sections.
Once this infiltration begins, the section tends to move rapidly
to all-Negro. This has created several pockets of Negro
residents surrounded by white neighborhoods. He said also that
the sections identified as all-Negro are actually not all-Negro.
An insignificant number of white families "dot" every Negro
section of the City. • On page 5 of the report it is said that
most of the school buildings in Little Rock were constructed
with a view to perpetuating segregation rather than implementing
desegregation. "This means that a Negro community has a school
so located in relation to it that it is ‘sensible* for children
in that community to attend that school. The same is true for
the white community." On the other hand, Parsons testified at
the hearing (Tr. 444), "No, we have not built any building for
the purpose of perpetuating segregation."
To illustrate generally this population makeup, the location
of the four general high schools1 is illuminating. The most
eastern high school is Horace Mann, which is all-Negro. In the
middle of the City is Central High, which in the school year
1968-69 had 1,542 white students and 522 Negroes. At the same
time. Hall High, in the western part of the District, had 1,461
white pupils and 4 Negroes. The fourth high school, Parkview,
in the southwestern part, had 46 Negroes and 519 whites. (Df.
Ex. 25) Parkview is not as yet a true high school. It consists
of grades 8, 9, and 10 in 1968-69; and will serve grades 9, 10,
and 11 in 1969-70. Similar patterns are reflected in the junior
high and elementary schools— heavily Negro in the eastern part
NOTE 1: This does not include Metropolitan High, a specialized
vocational school, which for years has served the
entire District. There is no segregation problem relating o
this school.
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8 9 ?
Memorandum Opinion
of the District, a mixture in the central portion, and heavily
white in the western part of the District.
The scholastic population of the District, using the latent
figures available as reflected by District assignments in July
1968, is 23,113. Of these, 15,063 (65.2%) are white, and
8,050 (34.8%) are Negro. (Df.Ex. 6, p. 5)
As of July 1968 (page 7 of the same Exhibit) it is indicated
that for the year 1968-69 a total of 1,398 Negro students would
attend formerly all or predominantly white schools? in the
elementary schools, 956 Negro students would do so, making a
total of Negroes attending formerly all or predominantly white
schools of 2,354.
DEVELOPMENTS SINCE THE DECISION BY THE COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE
EIGHTH CIRCUIT IN THIS CASE DECEMBER 15, 1966. CLARK V. BOARD
OF EDUCATION OF LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DIST., SUPRA.
The Little Rock School Board, on August 29, 1966, approxi
mately four months before the Court of Appeals decision, entered
into an employment agreement with a team of experts from Oregon
to make a study and offer recommendations as to a satisfactory
desegregation plan to be used in the Little Rock School System.
The cost was approximately $25,000. That group filed its report
of 203 pages with the Board in May 1967, and throughout the
hearing is referred to as the "Oregon Report. (Df. Ex. 7)
Briefly, this report recommended a so-called educational
park system, including the creation of one senior high school
for the entire District, involving some 5,000 or more students,
the pairing of Mann with Metropolitan High School, the clos' g
of a number of older schools and the construction of several
new ones. The price tag to implement the report was estimated
to be in excess of ten million dollars.
-7-
898
The Little Rock School Superintendent, Mr. Parsons,
criticized the report because it required the development of an
extensive system of transportation and the complete abandonment
of the neighborhood school concept. He considered the ten
million dollar cost figure to be extremely conservative, and
thought that implementation of the report would cost consider
ably more.
On August 31, 1967, the School Board directed Superintendent
Parsons to prepare a long range plan for desegregation for the
Little Rock School District and to submit the plan not later
than January 25, 1968. It appears in the record as Defendants'
Exhibit 10.
Mr. Parsons' plan would have desegregated the senior high
schools through so-called strip zoning from east to west; closed
down Horace Mann, the all-Negro school on the east side; and
built additions to Parkview and Hall in order to achieve a
reasonable racial ratio in those high schools.
Mr. Parsons also recommended the creation of what he called
the Alpha Complex, which would have involved the closing of four
grammar school buildings on the east side of Main Street, and
which would have resulted in the creation of a reasonable racial
ratio at the elementary level in this section. He also recommend
ed the creation of the so-called Beta Complex which involved
the Garland, Lee, Stephens, Franklin and Oakhurst Schools,
making a complex out of these five schools, because one of these
schools (Stephens) was all-Negro, and the others were pre
dominantly white. By pairing or consolidating these schools
a reasonable racial balance would be achieved in this partic
area in the central portion of the District.
His report did not attempt to deal with the junior high
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Memorandum Opinion
problem because he stated that "a solution for this at that
time escaped us, and I am not sure but that it still escapes
us."
The Board adopted the proposal and called for a bond issue
for something in excess of five million dollars to implement
the plan and proposed a millage rate of 50 mills. The election
was in March 1968, and the voters rejected the millage increase.
Some of the school directors who had voted for adoption of the
Parsons Report were defeated. All parties concede that the
negative vote at this election was in effect a defeat of the
Parsons Plan, which was the primary issue at the election. A
similar fate had already befallen the Oregon Plan.
THE ZONING PLAN FILED BY THE BOARD NOVEMBER 15, 1968.
At the December hearings Parsons testified that the only
feasible alternative to the present freedom of choice procedure
is geographic attendance zones. Defendants' Exhibit 22 is a map
showing high school, junior high school, and elementary
attendance zones the School Board proposes.
In discussing Defendants' Exhibit 22 Parsons said there are
exceptions to certain students residing in these zones. One is
that Metropolitan Technical High serves the whole District; the
second is that since there would be a decided increase in
faculty desegregation that all teachers desiring to do so may
enroll their children in the school or schools where those
teachers are assigned to teach. This would assist in assigning
teachers and in recruiting teachers.
Another exception was that all students presently in the
eighth grade in junior high school level and all students who
are presently in the tenth and eleventh grades in senior h g
899
Memorandum Opinion
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900
Memorandum Opinion
school level would be given a choice to either attend the
appropriate school in the geographic zone where they
reside or continue to attend the school where they are currently
enrolled.
The reason for these last exceptions— that is, in the
junior and senior high— is that the pupils in the 11th grade,
for example, have related themselves to co-curricular and extra
curricular activities. The 11th grade students have probably
already ordered their invitations and rings. There are pupils
in the 10th grade who have been elected to the pep clubs, are
playing in the band, or participating in athletics, and Mr.
Parsons feels that they have a pre-emptive right to remain in
that school if they desire to do so until graduation.
At the junior high level the 7th grade student has related
himself somewhat to the school, but he has not done so as
effectively as has the 8th grade student. Consequently, he
feels that the 8th grade student at the junior high school
level should be permitted to finish the 9th grade at that junior
high school.
In explanation of the plan presented November 15, Parsons
said he knows of no plan that could be put into operation within
the reasonably near future that would not involve an expenditure
of money, other than a neighborhood geographic zoning plan which
would actually make a more effective and more efficient use of
existing facilities and could be administered in a more effective
and impartial manner. It involves a neighborhood school concept
which gives a closer relationship between the parents and patrons
of any school.
The Little Rock System, he said, is presently operating
under the most restrictive current operating budget thau has
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901
Memorandum Opinion
been experienced in the last seven years. The District has no
available funds for additional expenses. It has a contingency
fund in next year's budget of $135,000. Normally the Board
tries to carry a contingency fund of 2-1/2% of the total budget—
$135,000 is slightly less than 1%.
Mr. Parsons referred to Mr. Walker's estimate of the cost
2of $500,000 for transportation, and Mr. Parsons said that there
is no way in the world to squeeze the Little Rock School
District's budget and get that much left over.
THE FACULTY.
The School District's desegregation proposal as relating
to the faculty is set forth in Defendants' Exhibit 23. 18% of
the total high school faculty is Negro and 82% white; 27% of
the junior high school faculty is Negro and 73% white; and at
the elementary level 35% is Negro and 65% white. Under the plan
for the future as shown on Defendants' Exhibit 24 the actual
number of white and Negro teachers and the number of transfers
involved in order to achieve the objectives sought is shown.
There is a variation, but in no case is there less than 15% nor
more than 45% of each faculty Negro. There is a minimum of 55%
of each faculty white, and a maximum of 85%.
THE SCHOOL STAFF.
There are seven menders of the Little Rock School Board.
Mr. T. E. Patterson, one of the members is a Negro; the other
six members are white.
The Superintendent, Mr. Parsons, is white, as is the Deputy
Superintendent, Mr. Fair. The Assistant Superintendent in Charge
OTE 2: Since this is stated to be an annual cost, it
apparently does not include the initial capital
nvestment in the buses that would be needed.
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902
Memorandum Opinion
of Instruction, Mr. Fortenberry, is white, as is the Assistant
Superintendent in Charge of Business Affairs, and Assistant Super
intendent in Charge of Research and Pupil Personnel. The Assist
ant Superintendent in Charge of Personnel is Mr. Fowler, a Negro.
Mr. Fowler’s primary responsibility concerns the actual employment!
of and assignment of principals and other members of all
personnel who are to be employed by the school system.
Mr. Winslow Drummond, one of the members of the Board, and
Mr. Patterson, the Negro member, voted against the plan submitted
to the Court. Mr. Drummond testified that the primary reason
he voted against it was because the Board had asked the Superin
tendent at its September meeting to draw a plan within certain
policy guidelines, which Parsons submitted to the Board October 10L
Certain changes were made in the plan by the Board before it
was submitted to the Court, and Drummond felt that Mr. Parsons'
plan as of October 10 should have been adopted by the Board.
His reasons, in some detail, were a part of a prepared statement
which is included in Defendants' Exhibit 27 as a part of the
minutes of the meeting of November 15. Actually, he said, the
only difference of any importance between the two plans is that
the tentative proposal by Mr. Parsons of October 10 would have
included 80 pupils in Hall High.
Mr. Drummond does think that the Beta Complex is still a
feasible plan for further implementation of desegregation in
the District.
He agreed that there were no surplus funds in the operating
budget.
The change in the Hall High boundary line proposed by
Mr. Parsons October 10 and which was the principal reason
Mr. Drummond's opposition to the adopted plan of November
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903
is shown on Defendants' Exhibit 28. The change is in the
southeast area of the Hall High zone, and this line would have
extended it farther southeast, within a few blocks of Central
High, picking up 76 Negro students, making a total of 80.
TESTIMONY BY THE EXPERTS.
As might be expected, testimony of the experts corresponded
generally with the views of the parties who called them to
testify.
The School Board called Dr. E. C. Stimbert, Superintendent
of Schools of the Memphis, Tennessee City System. He has an
extensive educational background. For the last 22 years he has
been with the Memphis School System; the last 11 years as
Superintendent of that system, and has 125,000 students, about
50% Negro. The Memphis system of assigning students is based
on the neighborhood school concept.
Professionally he differs from the proposal of Dr. Goldhammer
to abandon the neighborhood school system in Little Rock in
favor of the educational park concept. He knows of no public
school system in the nation that has converted its entire system
to an educational park operation, although some are talking about
experimenting with it.
He thinks that the involvement of the parents in the
neighborhood schools is a definite asset to the schools involved.
More support is received from parents through P.T.A. and other
school programs.
If a child is transported to some distance away from home
there is an element of time in addition to the expense. There
is a lack of interest on the part of the home in that school
which is more remote from the neighborhood in which the child
Memorandum Opinion
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904
resides. In the case of very young children who quite often get
sick at school, in the neighborhood concept the school is close
to the home of the child and it is easy to get in touch with
the parents or neighbors.
The American Association of School Administrators, of which
he is a member, made a study of this problem, and at the con
clusion of the study there was full agreement on the neighborhood
school philosophy as far as the administrative unit for achieving
optimum educational results.
He has examined the faculty desegregation plan that
Mr. Parsons presented to the Court. In his opinion it is a
tremendously ambitious program. He knows of no school system
in the United States that has deseyregated the faculties in the
manner he is proposing for the coming year, 1969.
In his opinion, after studying the various plans submitted
to the Court here, he knows of no plan other than geographical
attendance zones that would be educationally sound or administra
tively feasible.
The plaintiffs called Dr. Keith Goldhammer, Dean of the
School of Education, Oregon State University. He has a Ph.D.
degree from that institution. He has had extensive experience
and was one of the research team which made the so-called
Oregon Report in Little Rock. He is the author of publications.
In Little Rock his primary responsibility was to undertake the
direction and supervision of the field work.
His basic point of disagreement with Mr. Parsons is the
j| disagreement over the continuation of the neighborhood school
concept. He said that is not an educational concept, but an
administrative concept— there is nothing to lose educationally
by abolishing the neighborhood school concept. He does not
Memorandum Opinion
- 1 4 -
905
Memorandum Opinion
think the geographic attendance area plan prepared by the District
is one to accomplish desegregation. He does not think it would
improve upon the present freedom of choice system. He suggests
pairing of certain schools, which would require some busing at
the District's expense.
Dr. Goldhammer resumed his testimony on December 24, after
the recess from August. He said that as far as faculty desegrega
tion is concerned the Board's plan seemed to be a feasible
approach; although it does not do the entire job, if it is
followed by action that would relieve any inequities that
remained, complete faculty desegregation could be achieved.
He criticizes the situation in Hall High because of the
few Negroes enrolled there.
He said that the Board has three plans that he has seen
which are superior to the plan submitted to the Court under the
Resolution of November 15. They are: the Oregon Report,
Mr. Parsons' Plan, and the plan which became known'as the
Walker Plan (Walker is one of counsel for plaintiffs).
He doubts that the superimposing the Beta Complex upon
the plan represented by Defendants' Exhibit 22 would be feasible
because it would be doing the job in a section of the community
without effect on the total community.
Although a member of the American Association of School
Administrators, he is in disagreement with their support of the
neighborhood school concept.
The plaintiffs also presented as an expert, Dr. Dan W.
Dodson, whose credentials are impressive. He is chairman of
the Department of Education of Sociology and Anthropology of
the School of Education at New York University. He obtained
his Ph.D. from that institution. He assisted the Washington,
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906
D. C. school board in 195 3-54 in the desegregation of its
schools. He designed a plan for desegregation for the New
Rochelle School System in the early 1960s, and served as a
consultant in the study of the Englewood, New Jersey school
system in the desegregation of that system. He made a study
of the school system of Mount Vernon, New York and proposed a
desegregation plan which the State Commissioner of Education
has ordered to be put into effect. He also did a study of the
Orange, New Jersey school system as a basis for the NAACP's
suit against that district. He is the Dr. Dodson referred to
in the Second Circuit Court of Appeals case involving New
Rochelle.
He said that the neighborhood school concept never had any
integrity in the educational literature until around 1920. It
is now a place where people who are more privileged try to hide
from the encounter with others. It has become an exclusive
device. He would not describe the high schools shown on the
map, Defendants' Exhibit 22, as neighborhood schools. No high
school in the community, nor series of high schools, are
neighborhood schools.
He said that reports he had studied showed that Negro
youngsters in an integrated situation had done better than other
Negro children, and white children have not fallen behind
because of integration.
He does not think you can have an effective or meaningful
integration, even though the faculty be integrated, without
integration of its pupils.
He referred to the Englewood school system and White Plains.
In White Plains, Negro children were sent by bus in a leapfrog
operation beyond the desegregated school to the outlying schools
Memorandum Opinion
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907
where there were all-white, so that each school reflects between
10% and 30% Negro in a community that is about 24% Negro child
population.
Pairing of schools has also been used widely.
Busing is a common practice in education in America.
Commenting on the so-called Parsons Plan in connection
with high school desegregation, if desegregation is to be
accomplished the zones would have been east and west rather
than north and south.
His attention was called to the so-called Beta Complex,
page 34, Defendants' Exhibit 10. He thinks this would be a
rather imaginative approach to dealing with the problem.
When he was asked whether Defendants' Exhibit 22 reflected
a non-racial system, his response was that it appeared to him
to be a racist school system— it will result in the west end of
town being white and the east end of town Negro, and the next
step, if it follows the history of New York, would be that the
frustrated blacks will demand "the separation into local control"
and "they will want to take over the school system for them
selves and press for apartheid education."
On cross examination he stated that almost all the desegrega
tion plans he had mentioned and that he had a part in formulating
involved either the closing of a Negro school or providing
transportation for the students, or both. These involved some
expense.
He doesn't know how far students would have to be trans
ported by bus if the high school zones on Defendants' Exhibit 22
had been drawn east to west, but he knew it would be several
miles. When asked whether the Parsons Report and the exhibits
in it reflect that Negro students living in the eastern section
Memorandum Opinion
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908
Memorandum Opinion
of the District if assigned to Hall High under an east-west
zoning plan would be six, seven, or eight miles to go to get
to Hall High, he said that he had noted that that figure had
been "passed around."
He disagrees with certain statements published by the
former president of Harvard University, Dr. James Bryant Conant,
and also certain statements in a publication by the Honorable
Hubert Humphrey, former Vice-President of the United States,
published in 1964.
He knows of no other school district with as high a propor
tion of Negro students as in Little Rock District that has under
taken so massive a reassignment of teachers for the purpose of
moving toward racial balance, as disclosed in the plan filed in
this case.
He agrees that there is a good deal of diversity of pro
fessional opinion concerning the neighborhood school concept
and the educational park concept. He would also agree that there
are a great many professional educators with good credentials
who would disagree with some of the ideas he has expressed in
his testimony.
THE APPLICABLE LAW.
The School Board has filed a plan involving compulsory
geographic attendance zones on the part of the pupils, using the
neighborhood school concept, although admittedly that concept
has less applicability to high schools. On the other hand, the
plaintiffs attack the neighborhood school principle, saying it
has no validity and that the geographic attendance zones should
run lengthwise the District. Ibis, as they admit, would involve
compulsory transportation of students by bus for distan
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909
least of six to eight miles. This is so because the schools
in the central part of the City, including Central High, are
largely integrated, and the great disparity between the races
exists in the extreme eastern and western parts. Therefore,
transportation of pupils would consist largely of transportation
from the extreme east-to-west and vice versa, traversing the
crowded traffic conditions of the middle section, including the
downtown business district. Thus, high school pupils from
Horace Mann in the east would have to be transported past
Central to Hall High in the west, or vice versa. The same would
be true in a lesser degree with the junior high and elementary
schools.
At the present time the school District furnishes no
transportation to any students. Although some students use
public transportation (bus), this would not service a school
system such as plaintiffs propose.
Thus, the central issue in this case raised by plaintiffs
is whether or not the school District should be required to
adopt geographical zones running from east to west, regardless
of the expense to the District and the convenience of the pupils.
This Court's search of the authorities has not disclosed
a case that has required compulsory bus transportation by the
school system.
United States v. Jefferson County Board of Education, 372
F .2d 836 (5 Cir. 1966), is one of the most widely cited cases
'! by counsel for Negro plaintiffs in school cases. Its long
opinion raised questions about the neighborhood school system,
but said, at p. 879:
"The neighborhood school system is rooted
deeply in American culture. Whether its
continued use is constitutional when it
Memorandum Opinion
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910
Memorandum Opinion
leads to grossly imbalanced schools is a
question some day to be answered by the
Supreme Court, but that question is not •
present in any of the cases before this
court.11 (Emphasis supplied.)
As to transportation of students, it simply says, p . 890:
"If transportation is provided for white
children, the schedules should be re-routed
to provide for Negro children."
In the three Supreme Court cases decided May 27, 1968_
Greene v. County School Board, 391 U.S. 430; Raney v. Board of
Education, 391 U.S. 443; and Monroe v. Board of Commissioners,
391 U.S. 450— no reference is made to compulsory transportation
of students. In Greene, p. 441, the Court said that instead of
freedom of choice, the Board should consider "reasonably avail
able other ways, such for illustration as zoning . . . ."
In Raney, at p. 448, the Court said:
"The Board must be required to formulate a
new plan and, in light of other courses
which appear open to the Board, such as
zoning, fashion steps . . . ."
In a case from the Fifth Circuit later than Jefferson, supra,
Broussard v. Houston Independent School District, 395 F. 2d 817
(5 Cir. 1968), the court said, at p. 820:
"Racial imbalance in a particular school does
not, in itself, evidence a deprivation of con
stitutional rights. Zoning plans fairly
arrived at have been consistently upheld,
though racial imbalance might result."
(Citing cases from the Fourth, the First,
and the Tenth Circuits.)
However, in Adams v, Matthews, 403 F.2d 181 (5 Cir. 1968),
another panel of that Circuit said, p. 188:
"If in a school district there are still all-
Negro schools or only a small fraction of
Negroes enrolled in white schools, or no
- substantial integration of faculties and
school activities, then, as a matter of law
the existing plan fails to meet the constitu
tional standards as established in Greene . . .
One alternative to freedom of choice is the assign
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911
Memorandum Opinion
ment of students on the basis of geographic
attendance zones. In an attendance zone
system (as in a freedom of choice system)
the school authorities should consider the
consolidation of certain schools, pairing of
schools, and a majority-to-minority transfer
policy as means to the end of disestablishing
the dual system."
On rehearing the court said, p. 190, in suggesting certain
measures to be considered:
" (a) Liberal majority-to-minority transfer
policies, notwithstanding the existence
of zones;
" (b) Principal, faculty, and staff desegrega
tion; and
" (c) Desegregation of athletic activities ..."
The most recent case of the Fifth Circuit that has been
called to our attention by counsel for plaintiffs is Henry v.
The Clarksdale Municipal Separate School District, ___ F.2d ___
(March 6, 1969) . The court criticized the geographical zoning
plan of the board because the plan would only produce token
desegregation. It said if there were still all-Negro schools
or only a small fraction of Negroes enrolled in white schools or
no substantial integration of faculties and school activities,
then as a matter of law the existing plan fails to meet con
stitutional standards.
The court said that the board should consider redrawing
its attendance zone boundaries, incorporating the majority-to-
minority transfer provision in its plan, closing all Negro
schools, consolidating and pairing schools, rotating principals,
and taking "other" measures to overcome the defects of the present
system.
In none of these cases from the Fifth Circuit, which
admittedly has gone much further than any other circuit in
discussing possible alternatives to freedom of choice, has the
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912
I
court suggested compulsory transportation of pupils by bus.
We can only surmise, but perhaps the omission in all of
these cases of compulsory bus transportation may be due, at
least in part, to the national policy spelled out by Congress
in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Title XV of the Act confers
authority on the Attorney General to initiate civil suits to
"further the orderly achievement of desegregation in public
education," subject to this provision:
" . . . provided that nothing herein shall
empower any official or court of the United
States to issue any order seeking to achieve
a racial balance ir. any school by requiring
the transportation of pupils, or students from
one school to another or one school district
to another in order to achieve such racial
balance, or otherwise enlarge the existing
power of the court to insure compliance with
constitutional standards." 78 Stat. 248,
42 U.S.C. 2000C-6 (1964).
In Clark, supra, plaintiffs were seeking geographical
attendance areas, and on p. 666 the Eighth Circuit characterized
attendance areas as "this admittedly constitutional alternative."
THE COURT'S CONCLUSIONS.
1. The Board's Zoning Plan for Pupils.
As shown by Defendants' Exhibit 22, the Board's plan for
geographical attendance zones, assuming the legality of the
neighborhood school concept, seems fairly and equitably drawn.
There is no indication of gerrymandering. It will be approved,
with the following exceptions:
(a) The Hall Boundary Line.
Mr. Parsons suggested in his report to the Board
dated October 10 that the south line of Hall be extended eastward
to a point not far from Central High, the purpose being to
include 80 Negro students in Hall rather than the four who wou
Memorandum Opinion
-22-
913 i
Memorandum Opinion
be included under the District's Plan, Exhibit 22. This
proposed extension of the south line of Hall eastward is shown
on Defendants' Exhibit 28. The southeast line of Hall will be
modified according to Defendants' Exhibit 28. To pinpoint this
issue for the benefit of counsel and the Court of Appeals,
this change from the Board's Plan is gerrymandering pure and
simple, but it is justified, we think, to increase integration,
which is almost non-existent in Hall.
(b) The Beta Complex.
There are five elementary schools near the center of
the system: Franklin, Garland, Oakhurst, Stephens, and Lee.
They are close enough together to permit their consolidation
or pairing. The disparity of integration in these schools under
the proposed zoning plan contrasted with the so-called Beta
Complex Plan is shown on the table on page 1 of Court Exhibit 1:
Elementary Zoning Plan Beta Complex
School____ Negro_____White Negro White
Primary
Franklin 61
Garland 62
Oakhurst 24
Stephens 313
526 170 403
260 114 269
Intermediate
330 104 286
34 144 396
Special Educ
Lee 70 219 30 40
Totals 530 1,369 562 1,394
GRAND TOTAL 1,899 1,956
Dr. Dodson characterized the Beta Complex as an imaginative
approach to solving the integration problem of these particular
schools. We realize that Dr. Goldhammer, as well as Mr. Parsons,
criticized the adoption of the Beta Complex unless similar
adjustments were made throughout the system. As best the Court
can tell, this opposition is primarily due to the fact that
these witnesses feel that the patrons of these particular
will feel that they have been unduly singled out in contrast
-2 3 -
914
)
the other schools in the system. The Court does not feel that
these reasons are sufficient to prevent a solution to the
problem in these five schools as shown by the tables above,
and the Court will hold that the so-called Beta Complex involv
ing these elementary schools must be implemented.
We realize, however, that some capital expenditures will
be involved, and it is perhaps too late, both for the capital
improvements to be made and the necessary administrative pro
cedures to be accomplished by September of 1969, and we hold
that the Beta Plan need not be put into effect until September
1970.
(c) Transfers from Schools where Student's Race is in
the Majority to Schools where his Race is in the Minority.
The Board's Plan will be further modified by retention
of freedom of choice for any Negro or white student to transfer
from a school in which his race is in the majority to a school
in which his race is in the minority. Such transfers are to
be subject to the usual provisions as to overcrowding, etc.
This will permit Negro students who otherwise would be
locked into predominantly Negro schools by attendance zoning
to transfer to predominantly white schools. White students are
given the same privilege. That such provisions are valid is
well established by the cases.
There are other minor exceptions to the geographical zoning
that are mentioned in the Board's Plan.
Teachers' Children.
Under the faculty plan a good many teachers will be trans
ferred from the schools in which they now teach. The plan
provides that teachers who desire to do so may enroll their
children in the schools where they (the teachers) are assigned.
Memorandum Opinion
-24-
915 )
Memorandum Opinion
This will affect a small number of students and may aid the
school staff in securing the cooperation of the teachers to
accept new posts. We approve it.
Students Presently in Eighth, Tenth, and Eleventh Grades.
We think this is reasonable and will cause less disruption
among the students who are approaching the end of their junior
and senior high school years. This is a temporary situation and
will only last two years until the tenth grade pupils graduate.
We think it is a reasonable exception,and approve it.
2. Faculty and Staff.
The Board has made substantial advances in the integra
tion of its faculty and staff since the opinion of the Court of
Appeals in Clark. Much more progress has been made in staff
integration than indicated above in this opinion where reference
was made to personnel associated with the Superintendent and
his assistants.
The proposal of the Board made at the suggestion of the
Court means that no school in the District will have an all-
Negro nor an all-white faculty. The number of Negro teachers
within each school will range from a minimum of 15% to a
maximum of 45%. The number of white teachers within each
school will range from a minimum of 55% to a maximum of 85%.
The Court has no hesitancy in approving that plan. The
experts, Drs. Dodson, Goldhammer and Stimbert, all agreed that
it was a most ambitious program to be accomplished in one year,
and one or more of them expressed some concern about the
District's ability to implement it. Superintendent Parsons,
however, firmly expressed his conviction that it would be
implemented by September, and we have no reason to doubt his
intentions in that regard.
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916
COMPARISON OF INTEGRATION UNDER FREEDOM OF CHOICE AND ZONING.
The Court requested counsel for the School Board to submit
tables showing the number of Negro students attending formerly
all-white schools and white students who would attend formerly
all-Negro schools under the proposed zoning plan in contrast to
the number of pupils in the same categories in the last few
years under freedom of choice. This appears in the record as
Court Exhibit 2.
The figures in the before and after columns show that as of
July 1968 there were 1,398 Negro students assigned to formerly
all-white schools as contrasted to 1,133 under the Board's Plan
for geographical zoning to go into effect in September 1969.
These totals are not strictly comparable because the July 1968
column shows 131 Negro students in Metropolitan (the technical
high school), and the total for September 1969 under zoning
omits any Negro students who would attend Metropolitan. Why
the Exhibit was prepared in this manner we do not know— but, as
stated above, Metropolitan serves the entire District, and as
Footnote C reflects, the Board anticipates that a number of
Negroes will attend Metropolitan under the zoning plan.
Up to the present time no white students have chosen to
attend any formerly all-Negro schools. The Board Exhibit
reflects that it expects 182 white students to be in that
category this coming September.
ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS.
The number of Negroes assigned to formerly all-white
schools under freedom of choice in 1968 was 956, with no wh
attending formerly all-Negro schools. Under the proposed zoning
plan there would be 1,176 Negro students attending formerly all
white schools, and 199 white students in formerly all-Negro
-26-
Memorandum Opinion
917
Memorandum Opinion
schools. These figures do not take into consideration the
implementation of the Beta Complex.
The total number of Negro pupils attending all-white schools
in 1968 was 2,354, and under the zoning plan it is anticipated
that the total Negroes attending formerly all-white schools
(again omitting Negroes attending Metropolitan High, but which
were included in the 2,354 figure) will be 2,309, and 381 white
students will attend formerly predominantly Negro schools, making
a total number of pupils attending schools in which their race
is in the minority 2,690.
While we are sure these figures are accurate as far as the
experience for 1968, and the location of pupils by race in the
attendance zones plan, these figures do not accurately depict
what will occur under the zoning plan. In the first place,
they do not take into consideration the Court’s modification of
the plan so as to permit any Negro child wherever he lives in
the District the choice to transfer to a school in which his
race is in the minority. How many that will be it is impossible
to foretell, except that on the basis of past experience it
should be a considerable number (2,354 in 1968, although that
figure probably includes some Negroes who reside in zones where
their race is in the minority and who would be ineligible to
exercise the majority-to-minority transfer choice). The with
holding of application of the zoning plan to pupils in grades
8, 10, and 11, as well as the expiration of this exemption, also
will have an influence on the figures, although it is impossible
to be definite as to their number. The number of white students
who are required to attend formerly all-Negro schools is, of
course, a net gain of the mixture of races in the school system.
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918
CONSTRUCTION OF SCHOOLS.
We realize that some of the cases make a distinction
between school integration that originated de jure as contrasted
to that which came about and exists de facto. The parents of
school children do not move where schools are— schools are con
structed where the children are or expected to be. Nearly
every school district as large as Little Rock employs experts
who study the trends which indicate where the population will
be five and even ten years from the time of construction of the
schools. What has happened in Little Rock is no different than
that which has happened in the northern and other sections of
this country where there was never any de jure segregation.
The growth of the City and the construction of new homes had
to be in the west and southwesterly portions of the District.
If new schools should be built where the pupils are or will be
the construction of new schools had to be in the same sections
of the District.
As Dr. Dodson said, he has noticed no difference in the
growth patterns where segregation was de jure or those sections
of the country where it was de facto. In all comparable cities
the same movement has occurred— the white people, particularly
the ones with higher incomes, have moved into the suburbs, most
of the Negroes have remained where they were or have moved into
the central part of the city, in many cases occupying the homes
which the whites have vacated.
We have no doubt that the growth of Little Rock and its
School District would have been the same without regard to so-
called de facto or de jure segregation.
If the concept of neighborhood geographical zoning is legal,
we see no reason why this Court should attempt to supervise the
Memorandum Opinion
-2 8 -
919
construction of new schools or the alteration or addition to
older schools, because the population demands will inexorably
dictate the location and construction of schools, of course,
if the Board deviated from this policy in such a way as to im
pede desegregation, application for relief could always be
made to this Court.
ATTORNEYS' FEES.
The Court realizes that the Court of Appeals has suggested
that the District Courts assess substantial attorneys' fees in
favor of plaintiffs in cases of this type where such fees are
warranted by the circumstances.
In their brief the plaintiffs have listed a great many
hours said to have been devoted to preparation for trial,
although there is no breakdown among the different phases of the
case.
After the Eighth Circuit's decision in Clark in December
1966 the Board immediately complied with its directive as to
notice to the pupils under the freedom of choice plan. Plain
tiffs' counsel so stipulated during this hearing. Of course,
the rate of progress of desegregation of faculty and staff may
be a matter of opinion, although considerable progress was made.
As of May 27, 1968, the date of the three Supreme Court cases,
the Little Rock School Board was operating a freedom of choice
system which had been declared legal by the Eighth Circuit.
The petition for further relief of plaintiffs forming the basis
of this phase of the litigation was filed June 25, 1968, less
than one month after the date of the opinions of the Supreme
Court in the three cases. If a reasonable allowance is made
for receiving copies of those Supreme Court opinions, study of
Memorandum Opinion
-29-
920
Memorandum Opinion
them by counsel, and counsel's conferring with the School Board,
it seems impractical, if not almost impossible, for the Board
to have made a revision in its desegregation policies by the
time that plaintiffs' petition was filed on June 25.
It is true that the response filed by the Board contained
no affirmative statements except an affirmation of good faith
and the fact that a committee had been appointed to reappraise
the Board's policies, but such committee had not completed its
work. It was in response to that answer that the Court wrote a
letter to counsel suggesting the filing of a geographic zoning
plan for the pupils and a redistribution of the faculty in each
school in accordance as near as possible with the ratio of the
races of the pupils in the District.
The Board filed a plan embodying the suggestions made in
the Court's letter. Since that time this lawsuit has largely
consisted of a vigorous attack by the plaintiffs on the neighbor
hood zoning plan filed by the Board, and they have' insisted that
the Board adopt either the Oregon or Parsons Plan, both of which
would require compulsory transportation of pupils by bus. The
Court has no doubt that nearly all of the hours which plaintiffs
list have been in connection with this issue which the Court has
found against the plaintiffs.
The Court realizes, as was stated in Clark, that the past
history of the Board (which, of course, includes many members
who no longer are serving) has been one of intransigence— but
under the circumstances here, and considering the outcome of
this case, the Court cannot say that since the Court of Appeals
opinion in 1966 the Board has exhibited bad faith— and for that
reason attorneys' fees are denied.
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921
Memorandum Opinion
a d d e n d u m.
There was another group of schools suggested for pairing
or consolidation in the eastern part of the District, known as
the Alpha Complex. The facts in the record as to that group of
schools are not sufficient for the Court to make a finding or
issue a directive as it has done in the Beta Complex.
The Court is aware that this case will be appealed to the
Court of Appeals, if not to the Supreme Court. Were that not
true, the Court would presently order that further information
be furnished the Court in connection with the Alpha Complex, and
if necessary, a hearing be held in connection with those
elementary schools. The Court does not believe that it would
serve any useful purpose to do- so now— but unless appellate
courts decide otherwise, the Court will, as soon as it is
feasible, pursue the possibility of further integration in
that area.
Jurisdiction of this cause will be retained.
Dated: May 8, 1969.
GORDON E. YOUNG
United States District Judge
-31-
922
DECREE
n THE WITS) STATU DISTRICT COURT
DISTRICT OS A MARIAS
DXVZSIOH
DELORES CLARK, et al . ;
V. So. LR-44-C-1SS
THE BOARD OS EDUCATION OS TBS
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, et alo
YOLANDA G. TONHSESD, a Minor, et al.
LITTLE ROCK CLASSROOM TEACHERS
ASSOCIATION
g g C » S «
Pursuant to Memorandum Opinion entered Nay 8, 19*9, it t«
by tha Court CONSIDERED, ORDERED, ADJUDGED and DECREESi
1. The defendants' student assignment plan based on the
zones reflected in defendants' Exhibit 22 is approved with the
following exceptional
(a) The defendants are directed to redraw the southeast
tons boundary of Hall High School ao as to place not less than
80 Negro high school students within that sane.
(b) The so-called "Bata Complex ’ as describsd in ths
Court's opinion shall be implemented by the Board for the school
tsru beginning in September 1970.
(c) Defendants are directed to provide an opportunity
for any student, white or Negro, to transfer froai a school
whera his race la in the majority to a school where his race is
in the Minority \Aere space is available. Adequate notice of
such opportunity to transfer shall be given to the students by
the defendants.
2. The special {xrovisions Mentioned in the opinion relating
to children of teachers, and students presently in the 8th,
KAXBTim
defendants
PLAINTIFF-IMTEEVENORI
XBTSEVEKOtd
Decree
923
10th, and 11th grades arc approved.
3. Defendants' plan far faculty desegregation i,
approved.
4. Plaintiffs' application for allowance of attorneys'
fees is denied.
5. dot later than 10 days before the coasaeneement of tbs
school tens in Septeaber 1970 tbs defendants shall file a
report with the Court which shall contain inf onset ion as to
the progress of faculty desegregation and the ieplenentation
of the "Beta Caspian.”
6. Xf it be coses necessary for defendants to adjust any
of the sane boundaries to better distribute the students
the schools prior to Septauber 1970, they will prosptly file
and serve on counsel far plaintiffs a description of all such
changes, together with reasons they were deesed necessary.
7. The Court retains jurisdiction of the cause for all
appropriate purposes.
Datedt Nay 14, 1949.
/s/ GORDON E. YOUNG
United states District Jodge
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924
NOTICE OF APPEAL
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
DELORES CLARK, ET AL.
v. NO. LR 64 C-155
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, ET AL.
NOTICE OF APPEAL
PLEASE TAKE NOTICE THAT plaintiffs hereby appeal to
the United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit from
the Order and Judgment entered by the United States District
l| Court for the Eastern District of Arkansas on May 8 , 1969,
the Honorable Gordon E. Young, Judge.
PLAINTIFFS
defendants
WALKER, ROTENBERRY & KAPLAN
1820 West 13th Street
Little Rock, Arkansas
By ________
One of Attorneys for Plaintiffs
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I have this 8th day of May, 1969, served a copy of the
above and foregoing upon the attorney for defendants, Mr. Robert
V. Light, by U. S. Mail.
I|;
i
925
NOTICE OF APPEAL F I L E D
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT „
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS .WESTERN DIVISION M
DELORES CLARK, ET AL.
V. No, LR-64-C-155
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, ET AL,
YOLANDA G. TOWNSEND, A MINOR, ET AL.
LITTLE ROCK CLASSROOM TEACHERS
ASSOCIATION
PLAINTIFFS
defendants
PLAINTIFF-INTERVENOR!,
INTERVENORS
NOTICE OF APPEAL
PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that plaintiffs and plaintiff-intervonors
hereby appeal to the United States Court of Appeals for the
Eighth Circuit from the Decree entered herein on flay 16, 1969 by
the United States District Court for the Eastern District of
Arkansas, Western Division, the Honorable Cordon r. Young,
District Judge.
Respectfully submitted.
DATED: ,1969. WALKER, ROTENBERRY & KAPLAN
1820 West 13th Street
Little Rock, Arkansas 72202
JACK GREENBERG
MICHAEL MELTSNER
NORMAN J. CHACHKIN
Suite 2030 - 10 Columbus Circle
New York, New York 10019
Attorneys for Plaintiffs
BY
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I hereby certify that I have mailed a copy of the above
notice of Appeal to the attorney for defendants and defendant-
intervenors, Smith, Williams, Friday & Bowen, 1100 Boyle Building,
Little Rock, Arkansas? Eucrene R. Warren, Esq., Tower Building,
Little Rock, Arkansas 72201; Allan H. Dishonoh, Esq., National
investors Rida., Little Rock, Arkansas 72201; and upon the attorney
for plaintif f-intervenors, John P. Sizemore, Esq., 711 West Third
otreet, Little Rock, Arkansas 72201, this day of June, 1969.
926
NOTICE OP CROSS-APPEAL
IN TH" UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
DELORES CLARK, ET AL PLAINTIFFS
Vi. No. LR-6A-C-155
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF TOE
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, ET AL DEFENDANTS
YOLANDA G. TOWNSEND, A MINOR, FT AL PLAINTIFF-INTERVENORS
LITTLE ROCK CLASSROOM TEACHERS
ASSOCIATION INTERVENORS
NOTICE OF CROSS APPEAL
PLFASE TAKE NOTICE that defendant!, th« Board of Education
of the Little Rock School District, William R. Meeks, Jr., Jim L.
Jenkins, Daniel H. Woods, Winslow Drummond, T. E. Patterson, Edwin
N. Barron, Jr., and Charles A. Brown, Directors of the LlttLe Rock
School District, hereby appeal to tha United States Court of Appeals
tor the ‘'Ighth Circuit from those portions of the Decree entered
herein on May lb, 1969 listed below:
"(a) The defendants are directed to redraw the southeast
zone boundary of Hall High School so as to place not less than
SO Negro high school students within that rone.
(d ) The so~called "Beta Coeq>lex" as described In the
Court's opinion shall be implemented by the Board for the school
term beginning in September 1970.
(c) Defendants are directed to provide an opportunity
for any student, white or Negro, to transfer from a school
where his race la In tha attjorlty to a school where his race Is
In the minority where space la available. Adequate notice of
927
Motice of Cross-Appeal
such opportunity to transfer shall be given to the students by
the defendants."
DATED: June 23, 1969
SMITH, WILLIAMS, FRIDAY <* BOWEN
By ___________________
Herschel H. Friday
ORIGINAL SIGNED BY
ROBERT V. LIGHT
Robert V. Light
LLOO BoyLe Building
Little Rock, Arkansas 7 2201
Attorneys for Defendants
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I certify that a copy of the foregoing Notice of Cross
Appeal was mailed on June 23, lvt9 to the following:
John U . walker, 1620 West 13th street, Little Rock, Arkansas
72202; Eugene K. Warren, Tower BulLding, Little Kook, Arkansas 72201;
Allan H. Dishongh, National Investors Life Building, Little Rock,
Arkansas 72201; and John P. blzeiaore, 711 West 3rd Street, Little Rock,
Arkansas 72201.
ORIGINAL SIGNED BY
ROBERT V. LIGHT
Robert V. Light
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