Davis v. Mobile County Board of School Commissioners Appendix Volume II

    APPENDIX
Volume II —  pp. 357a - 590a

Supreme Court of the United States
OCTOBER TERM, 1970

No. 436

BIRDIE MAE DAVIS, ET AL., PETITIONERS,

BOARD OF SCHOOL COMMISSIONERS 
OF MOBILE COUNTY, ET AL.

ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES 

COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT

ACTION ON PETITION FOR WRIT OF CERTIORARI 
DEFERRED AUGUST 31, 1970

PETITION FOR WRIT OF CERTIORARI FILED JULY 23, 1970



I N D E X

Volume II
PAGE

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969 ............. 357a

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969 ....... 473a

District Court Order of August 1, 1969 ....................  512a

School Board Report to the Court Filed November 
26, 1969 ........................................................................ 518a

Opinion of Court of Appeals of December 1, 1969 .... 543a

Second HEW Report Filed December 1, 1969 ........... 554a

Plan A ....................................................................  559a

Plan B ....................................................................  566a

Plan B—Alternative ..................   574a

Plan B-l—Alternative .........................................  581a

School Board Plan Filed December 1, 1969 ........... 586a

District Court Order of December 4, 1969 ..................  588a

Plaintiffs’ Motion to Require Service of Desegre­
gation Plan Filed January 2, 1970 .......................... 589a



357a

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969

In the

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 

F ob the Southern District of A labama 

Southern Division 

Civil Action No. 3003-63

B irdie Mae Davis, et al.,
Plaintiffs,

and

United States of A merica, by Ramsey Clark, 
Attorney General, etc.,

Plaintiff -Inter venor,

Board of School Commissioners of 
Mobile County, et al.,

and
Defendants,

J. T wh.a Frazier, et al.,
Defendants-Intervenors.

A ppearances:

For Plaintiffs—

Crawford & F ields 
By: Vernon Z. Crawford, Esq. 

William Robinson, Esq.



358a

For Plaintiff-Intervenor—

W alter Gorman, Esq.

For Defendants-—

P illans, Reams, Tappan, W ood & R oberts 
By: Abram L. Philips, Jr., Esq.

Also Present:

James A. McP herson, Associate Superintendent, 
Mobile County Public School System

B obby R. C l a r d y , Board of School Commissioners of 
Mobile County

[4] Mr. Gorman: Before we start, I object to hav­
ing non-parties and non-counsel for the parties pres­
ent and I would ask that the deposition not continue 
until this matter has been ruled on.

Mr. Philips: Okay. Mr. McPherson is a party and 
so is Mr. Clardy, party defendants to the litigation, 
and I think their presence is entirely proper, either 
in their individual capacity as parties or in their 
representative capacity as representatives of the 
School Board.

Mr. Gorman: Well, I disagree. I think that the 
privilege to attend depositions applies really to 
named parties and not to all the agents of the parties.

Mr. Philips: Okay. Do you have any further ob­
jections you want to make?

Mr. Gorman: I have no further objections but I 
will ask that a ruling be obtained on this before we 
continue it, a ruling from the Court.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



359a

Mr. Philips: Well, I am going to continue with 
the depositions unless the witness, unless you wish 
to instruct the witness not to answer.

Mr. Gorman: Well, I do not represent this witness 
as such, and I think it would he inappropriate for 
me to instruct him not to answer, but I would ask 
that this matter be presented to the Court for a rul­
ing if you feel it is proper for Mr. Clardy [5] and Mr. 
McPherson to be here.

Mr. Philips: I think it is entirely proper for them 
to be here and I intend to go ahead with the deposi­
tions. If you want to present it to the Court, I think 
it would perhaps be best that you contact the Court,

Mr. Gorman: Well, could we take a brief adjourn­
ment?

Mr. Philips: No, we are going to continue.
Mr. Gorman: So what you are saying is that you 

are making it impossible for me to present it to the 
Court without excusing myself from my attendance 
here.

Mr. Philips: Well, you can have Mr. Crawford go 
if you would like.

Mr. Gorman: Well, Mr. Crawford has the re­
sponsibility to be here as I do as representing one 
of the parties. I would like to take a brief break and 
contact the Court and see if we can obtain a ruling.

Mr. Philips: Well, I am going to continue with 
the deposition. If you want to go to the Court, that’s 
all right with me.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



360a

Mr. Gorman: Okay.
Mr. Crawford: Before you begin, when you two 

finish—
Mr. Philips: We seem to be finished temporarily.
Mr. Crawford: I would like to object to it on the 

grounds that on July 3rd when there was a meeting, 
supposedly conference, between Mr. Hall and other 
representatives of H.E.W. and the [6] School Board, 
that counsel for the plaintiff was not even notified of 
this conference; that—

Mr. Philips: Vernon, this doesn’t have a thing to 
do with the depositions. If you want to make such 
an objection as that, you might ought to take that to 
Judge Thomas. He called the conference and invited 
the people that he wanted to—

Mr. Crawford: And I would like to state for the 
record that counsel for the plaintiff has been at­
tempting to reach Doctor Hall ever since he learned 
that he was in town, that he has called repeatedly 
and left messages asking him to call which on only 
one occasion was returned. I understand that there 
have been several conferences between Dr. Hall and 
the School Board, of course, without plaintiff’s coun­
sel being present.

Mr. Philips: That, of course, is between you and 
Dr. Hall, and if you wish to inquire into that in the 
course of the deposition, I am sure you will feel free 
to do so.

We are ready, Mrs. Leamy.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



361a

Dr. Joe H all, having been first duly and legally sworn, 
testified on his oath as follow s:

On Direct Examination by Mr. Philips:

Q. State your full name, if you will, please, Dr. Hall? A. 
The name I go by is Joe, Joe, Hall. I was born Josiah, 
[7] Josiah, Calvin Hall, Jr., and you can see why I go by 
Joe.

Q. And your address ? A. My address is 7830 Southwest 
57th Court, that’s 57 Court, South Miami, Florida.

Q. Is that a permanent address? A. Yes.
Q. How long have you lived there? A. Oh, since Janu­

ary. Prior to that I lived at 500 Hardy Eoad, Coral Gables, 
for the preceding—well, since ’52 I guess it was I moved 
there.

Q. Are you married? A. Yes.
Q. Do you have children? A. Five.
Q. What ages? A. I have twin boys who are twenty- 

four or twenty-five. That won’t make any difference, will 
it? I can figure it out if it does.

Q. No. A. And twin girls who are twenty-one and one 
girl who is fifteen.

Q. If you will, Dr. Hall, give us your professional back­
ground, not your educational experience. I don’t think we 
need to [8] go that far back, but your professional back­
ground. A. That is, where I have worked?

Q. Where you have worked and so forth. A. Clear on 
back?

Q. Well, insofar as it deals with schools and— A. Well,
I taught school and served as principal in Leon County in

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



362a

Florida. From that—that was back in 1932 to ’35, and I was 
principal at a school at a place called Carrabelle, Florida. 
Then I worked in the State Department of Education in 
various capacities, the last one being the Director of the 
Division of Instruction, until 1948. In 1948 I went to Dade 
County as the Director of Instruction and held successive 
positions as Assistant Superintendent for Instruction, 
Associate Superintendent for Instruction, and then became 
Superintendent in January of 1957. I served in that ca­
pacity until January 16th, 1968, at which time I retired. 
Then I subsequently took the position in June, June the 
4th, 1968, with the University of Miami with the title of 
Visiting Professor of Education, and three-fourths of my 
time was supposed to be spent in teaching and various 
kinds of work at the college and one-fourth in part of 
the college known as the Florida School Desegregation Con­
sulting Center which is a Title IV project.

[9] Q. In your superintendency you said Dade County, 
Florida. Is that the Miami, Florida— A. Yes, that is—

Q. All of Dade County is Miami? A. All of Dade 
County, which includes all the incorporated as well as the 
unincorporated parts of the County.

Q. It’s a consolidated City-County system! A. Well, 
it’s a County system, yes.

Q. Now, you are currently engaged then at the Uni­
versity of Miami you said in the combination teaching­
consulting capacity! A. Yes.

Q. Now, Dr. Hall, have you had occasion in any of your 
capacities to work for or with the Department of Health, 
Education and Welfare, the Office of Education of the 
Department of Health, Education and Welfare! A. Yes.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



363a

Q. When did your work in this regard first begin? A. 
Well, the Florida School Desegregation Consulting Center 
is a Title IV project of the University of Miami, and I 
became officially connected with that on June the 4th, 
1968.

Q. All right. In that capacity— A. But it’s not a 
direct, you wouldn’t call it a direct relationship with 
H.E.W. I guess it really works under the Office [10] of 
Education which is, of course, under H.E.W.

Q. A department of it? A. Yes.
Q. Okay. In your work in that regard, what capacity 

do you work in? What do you consider yourself or what 
do they consider you? A. Well, my title is Assistant 
Director of the Florida School Desegregation Consulting 
Center.

Q. And what actual work do you do? A. Well, in vary­
ing capacities, among them to go out and help Counties in 
Florida develop plans for the desegregation of their 
schools.

Q. And what Counties in Florida have you worked with 
in this regard? A. I don’t know that I can name all of 
them. I can name several of them. Columbia.—

Q. Now, these are Counties you are naming? A. Yes. 
Florida is all a County unit system. Columbia County, 
Nassau County, Alachua County—

Q- How do you spell that? A. A l a c h u a , Dixie 
County, Levy County, Sumter County. In that particular 
capacity there are some more. I think I have copies of 
all this. (Pause) Palm Beach County. Now, those [11] I 
have worked with to the extent of helping develop complete

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



364a

plans. Other Counties I have worked with just briefly, 
go in and talk with them about their program. Also I 
have helped in workshops for the personnel in the school 
system that is moving into a desegregation plan, sup­
posedly helping them to adjust to the new situations in 
which they will be working.

Q. In these others that you have talked with about their 
programs, can you give us those? A. The names of them?

Q. Yes. A. Oh, great goodness, I guess I have met 
with all the superintendents. I have had conferences with 
them, so I will just say to varying degrees probably every 
County in Florida, from a brief conference say with the 
superintendent or to an overall work conference to, oh, 
a day or a day and a half. Now, do you want those that 
I have spent time in the County itself, is that what you 
are asking?

Q. Well, I guess that is not necessary, Dr. Hall, unless 
you feel that you can recall those where you have actually 
gone in. A. Well, I can name off a bunch of them. I don’t 
know if I can name all of them.

Q. All right. Name as many as you can. A. Manatee 
County, Duval County, Escambia County, Orange, Pinellas, 
[12] Hillsborough. I just hit Glades coming up here. Those 
are all I can think of right off. There may be others that 
I have actually been in the County.

Q. Now, in connection with your working with these 
various systems, how were you brought into it? A. I was 
invited by the school system.

Q. By the school system? A. Either the superinten­
dent or the board or generally both. I take it back. Duval

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



365a

—well, I was there at one time just as I described it, but 
Duval had a court order in which the Florida School De­
segregation Consulting Center was ordered by the court 
to develop a plan, and that order came before I joined 
the Center so the work had not been completed until after 
I joined the Center and that one they were not in there 
at the request of the local school officials. They were in 
there by the order of the court.

Q. Okay. Are there any others where they were in 
there by the order of the court other than Duval? A. No, 
I believe not. I believe that is the only one. There were 
some others that were under court order but not order 
asking the Center in.

Q. Okay. Have you had occasion to perform similar 
functions for any school systems outside of Florida? [13] 
A. I did some work with—what is it?—Rockingham. I just 
spent one day working with some people there. It was 
more the school principals than the County office. Rock­
ingham, North Carolina. I spent about three days last 
summer in West Virginia at, I believe the name of the 
school is West Virginia Wesleyan where they were hav­
ing a desegregation conference and I was there as a con­
sultant.

Q. That is a university or a college? A. Yes. It’s a 
State—well, no, it’s a Methodist school, I  believe, although 
I am not sure about their work.

Q. Okay. Now, I believe all these you have described 
so far are where you have been there in your capacity as 
a consultant or in connection with your work with the 
Florida Desegregation Center. Have you had occasion to

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



366a

consult with school officials or work with school systems 
in this regard in any other capacity, as a consultant to 
any other group? A. Are you talking about desegrega­
tion or about anything else?

Q. About desegregation. For example, the Department 
of Justice or the NAACP or anything like that. A. No, 
sir. I was a witness in a case in Orlando but I was called 
by the School Board attorneys, I guess, as a witness. I 
was supposed to be an expert witness or something.

Q. Is this the only occasion where you have had occa­
sion to testify [14] in court as a witness, either in court or 
by deposition in a school desegregation case? A. Well, I 
on my own, I mean—are you talking about since I joined 
the Center or before?

Q. Well, either way. A. Well, when I was Superinten­
dent of Schools, I spent a lot of time in the courts, yes.

Q. Testifying— A. For the school system.
Q. For the school system? In desegregation litigation 

involving that school system? A. Yes.
Q. All right. Other than that, is the testimony in the 

Orlando, Florida—did you say Orlando? A. Yes. That 
is Orange County.

Q. Orange County. A. No, I haven’t.
Q. No other occasion to testify? A. Not that I recall.
Q. And no occasion to work with—have you ever had 

occasion to work with the United States Department of 
Justice as a consultant? A. No, sir.

[15] Q. Or the NAACP or any other group? A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. Now, are you presently involved in working 

with a school system in the desegregation process as a

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



367a

result of a court order or for any other reason? A. Say 
the first part of that again.

Q. Are you presently involved in working with a school 
system? A. Yes.

Q. What school system? A. Well, here with Mobile is 
one, hut I am working with Orange County and with— 
well, I don’t know what the extent of my work will be yet 
with Glades County, the one that I stopped by yesterday. 
I guess I just terminated my work on Palm Beach County 
so I guess, I don’t know whether they will ask me back 
or not. I doubt it.

Mr. Crawford: Is this West Palm Beach or Palm 
Beach?

A. Palm Beach is the name of the County. The town is 
West Palm Beach.

Q. And your assignment now involves Glades County 
and Orange County in addition to whatever work you may 
now be doing with the Mobile system? You will have to 
answer verbally. She can’t see you. A. Oh, yes, I see.

[16] Q. Sometimes she will pick up the nod of your head 
but normally you will have to answer. A. Yes. Well, I 
am not sure to what extent that Glades County thing will 
run, as I say. We have one unfinished project with Pinellas 
County. That is St. Petersburg. They have asked us to 
quit. They invited us. We were invited by the superin­
tendent and they asked us to hold it in abeyance for the 
time being so, as you say, that is an unfinished item.

Q. Excuse me just a moment. (Pause) Dr. Hall, I would 
like to get your opinion on several matters. I would like

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



368a

to get your opinion on the proposition of bussing students 
or transporting students by bus in the school system for 
the purpose of achieving a racial balance in the schools. 
What is your opinion on that? A. You are talking about 
my personal opinion?

Q. Yes.

Mr. Crawford: I am going to object to that. I 
think this question and answer as to his personal 
opinion has nothing to do with this matter in terms 
of his professional opinion. His personal life has 
nothing, does not enter into play in this. His per­
sonal experiences as it relates to the witness, Joe 
Hall, has nothing to do with his ability to devise a 
place, and I object to his personal opinion on it.

[17] A. Maybe you meant professional.

Mr. Philips: Well, I assume in his personal 
opinion he would have to take into account every­
thing that affects him as a professional man,

Your personal professional opinion then.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969

A. Well—

Mr. Crawford: You see, his personal character 
or integrity is not in question here, I hope.

Mr. Philips: I am not questioning his integrity. 
I am asking for his opinion.

Mr. Crawford: I think the question should be 
limited and his answer should be limited to his



369a

expertise in terms of the job that he was hired or 
sent here to do.

Mr. Philips: I am asking for his persona] pro­
fessional opinion as a professional educator.

A. Can I go on now ?
Q. Sure. A. Well, generally speaking I have always 

felt that the less bussing you could have, the better you 
were, but I have also always recognized that you had to 
have bussing in order to operate schools to get the groups 
of people together for educational purposes, so I think 
bussing is essential for the operation of schools.

[18] Q. In a rural system. Now, the question I asked—

Mr. Crawford: Now, we are going to object to 
the leading question—

Q. The question I asked was bussing students to achieve 
a racial balance. A. Well, to achieve a racial balance. I 
don’t know that I would have a particular opinion on the 
balance. I have felt that some bussing would probably 
be necessary for the desegregation of schools and in some 
school systems in which I have worked I concurred with 
the superintendent who felt that he did want a racial bal­
ance and he was going to try to use bussing to attain that 
particular balance. In his situation I thought it was a 
good idea.

Q. You said in order to achieve desegregation. I asked 
your opinion as to the advisability of your personal feel­
ing, your personal professional feeling with reference to 
bussing strictly to achieve racial balance.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



370a

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969

Mr. Gorman: I am going to object. The witness 
has already given his personal professional opinion 
concerning bussing with respect to desegregation and 
bussing in general. Now, the term “ racial balance” 
isn’t sufficiently descriptive, I think, to show the 
area that the question is directed to.

Q. All right. Dr. Hall, you have said, as I understood 
your [19] testimony, you have sometimes found that it was 
necessary in order to achieve desegregation. Do you think 
it is desirable? A. In some individual situations, yes, I 
I think it would be desirable.

Q. It is desirable from the standpoint of what, the 
school system, the children? A. Yes, all, the community, 
the school system, and the children, but I wouldn’t want 
to make that an universal application. I would just say 
that in some situations I would think that would be good. 
I am thinking of Alachua County where we worked through 
the whole thing and thought it would be best for every­
body involved to try for some balancing.

Q. Do you think it is undesirable in some situations to 
bus students in a school system to achieve a racial balance ?

Mr. Gorman: I object again. I think your use 
of the term “ racial balance” isn’t sufficiently de­
scriptive.

Mr. Philips: If the witness has an opinion on it, 
I assume that it is.

Mr. Crawford: That results in the question
whether the witness knows what racial balance is,



371a

the definition of it. We have had so many defini­
tions of racial balance.

Mr. Gorman: It’s a term that has a legal defini­
tion as well as a—

[20] Mr. Philips: Well, let’s let the witness then 
give ns his opinion based on what he understands it 
to mean.

A. Well, let’s say, if I can illustrate, suppose you have an 
eighty-twenty white-black ratio in a school system, but say 
one school, when you set everything up, winds up to be 
about eighty-twenty black versus white. I think that there 
would be advantages to the school system and to all con­
cerned to do some bussing to achieve a racial balance in a 
situation of that kind.

Q. Can you tell us if you have an opinion as to whether 
there are undesirable effects of bussing to achieve a racial 
balance? A. If there are undesirable effects?

Q. You say that you feel it is desirable in some situations 
and undesirable in others. Why is it undesirable? A. I 
am trying to comprehend fully your question. Just give me 
a chance to— I gave you an illustration of where I thought 
it would be desirable. I wouldn’t think if you had, say your 
overall ratio was eighty-twenty again and you had one 
school with five percent and another school with fifteen 
percent say of one race, I would see no point or any 
desirability or anything to be gained by bussing to get them 
all say ten percent or twenty percent, to get them all the 
same percentage or the same ratio.

[21] Q. You are basing everything then on strictly per­
centages as they exist in a certain situation and you don’t

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



372a

attach any significance beyond that from the standpoint of 
the desirability or non-desirability of the general concept 
of bussing to achieve a racial balance?

Mr. Gorman: Well, once again I object. I think 
that the witness has already explained what his 
opinions were concerning bussing to achieve desegre­
gation within the context of what he believes racial 
balance to mean, and he has already answered that.

Mr. Philips: Will you read the question back to 
him, please, Mrs. Leamy?

Reporter: You are basing everything then on 
strictly percentages as they exist in a certain situa­
tion and you don’t attach any significance beyond 
that from the standpoint of the desirability or non­
desirability of the general concept of bussing to 
achieve a racial balance?

A. Well, let’s get into the educational thing of it. I think 
that in our society today it is good both for whites and 
blacks to have associational experiences in a school situa­
tion with each other. I don’t know whether that—

Q. All right. Relate that to the question that I asked 
about the bussing to achieve racial balance. [22] A. If it 
takes some bussing to achieve that, I would say it would be 
to the advantage of all the children concerned, yes.

Q. You agree with that as your personal professional 
opinion? A. Now, I have tried to say that I didn’t want to 
speak in terms of generalizations, that I would rather speak 
in terms of specifics, and I think you are saying more than

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



373a

I said when you stated what I said. I said I thought it was 
desirable for our white people and our black people to have 
associational experiences in a school system. It would 
depend on the individual situation involved as to whether 
I would think that would warrant bussing. As a general 
principle, as I have also stated, that the less bussing you 
have, I think the better oft you are.

Q. Okay. We are dealing with a concept, of course, and 
you and I probably because of our backgrounds, you being 
an educator and me a lawyer, perhaps we can’t communicate 
fully on it, but I was just trying to explore as fully as 
possible your professional opinion as an educator on this 
point. A. Well, what you run into, of course, is a weighing 
of values and you have to, you can’t put any of your values 
in ultimates and establish a general principle. You have 
to weigh values along the line.

Q. All right. Now, can we move along and get your opin­
ion in [23] the same manner, your personal professional 
opinion on the concept of free choice of schools as a method 
of student assignment in the school system! A. Well, my 
opinion on that has undergone some change over a period of 
time, I guess as everybody who has worked with a 
particular problem of desegregation. At one time I felt that 
free choice was desirable, that a person, that in operating 
a school that he ought to have the same freedom of going to 
school that a housewife would have in going to a grocery 
store, just go wherever she pleased. However, you can’t 
operate a school system on that basis, at least not entirely. 
You have to have some kind of restrictions about who can 
attend certain schools, else you will have some schools

Deposition of Dr. Joe IIall on July 15, 1969



374a

vacant and some schools very overloaded, so as yon have 
moved into the desegregation area, I have come to the 
conclusion that free choice is not a satisfactory way to 
operate schools. It puts a burden, it has put a burden upon 
the negro students that shouldn’t be placed on them and it 
also places a burden sometimes upon white people that 
shouldn’t be placed on them.

Q. Your change in evaluation then, as I understand it 
from your response, is that the only thing you find wrong 
with the freedom of choice concept is that it fails to achieve 
desegregation, is that correct?

[24] Mr. Gorman: No, the witness didn’t testify 
to that.

A. I didn’t say that.

Mr. Gorman: I object to the form of that question. 
Mr. Philips: All right. Let him explain then.

A. It does fail to achieve desegregation but it also places a 
burden upon a person making a choice that shouldn’t be 
placed on him.

Q. Well, what burden is this? A. Well, let’s illustrate. 
Suppose you lived in an area where there was an all-black 
school and you wanted to go to that school and you would 
be the only white person in that school. The pressures from 
your friends and your society would make it such or might 
make it such that you just, that you would not choose to go 
to that particular school.

Q. And so you feel that it, taking your example__ A.
That it places a burden upon the individual that I fihinTr 
should be assumed by the officials operating the agency.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



375a

Q. You think it’s important then to set up a structure to 
relieve me of having to exercise my choice? A. Well, I 
think it’s important not to place an excessive—

Mr. Gorman: I am going to object again to the 
question. The witness didn’t testify as you have 
phrased the question.

Mr. Philips: I am asking him another question, if 
he feels that [25] it is necessary then to set up a 
structure to relieve me of the responsibility or the 
burden of making my own choice.

A. I think it’s necessary to relieve you from the social 
pressures that would come to you from making a choice and 
the situation would be applicable to black and white.

Excuse me. I have been working with this thing so long, 
I  say black. If you would prefer negro, just put negro in 
every time I have said it. They have switched over down 
our way and they use black and white.

Mr. Philips: We have had a problem here with—
Mr. Gorman: Whatever Mr. Crawford would like.
Mr. Crawford: Colored, negro or black, either 

one it doesn’t matter. Call it by any name but most 
of them prefer black, even as white as I am.

Q. All right. Now, let’s move on to another expression of 
your opinion, Dr. Hall. What is your opinion on an 
artificial arrangement of student assignment, whether it be 
bussing students or gerrymandering school districts in an 
unnatural manner or whatever the arrangement may be,

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



376a

an artificial arrangement for the sole purpose of increasing 
the extent of integration?

Mr. Crawford: Now, we are going to object to 
that question as to form. It is not clear as to what 
this witness has to answer [26] as to his opinion, and 
the phrasing of that question, the words used, is sug­
gesting that there has been gerrymandering by the 
H.E.W.

Mr. Philips: I am not suggesting anything. I am 
asking his opinion on a certain situation.

Mr. Crawford: Well, the form of the question 
suggests that.

Mr. Philips: I am not suggesting anything. I  am 
asking what his opinion is on such an arrangement 
if it should exist.

A. Well, my personal opinion is that everything possible at 
this particular time in our society should be done to 
encourage desegregation, and in saying that I am aware 
that neither blacks nor whites like the idea but I think both 
of them are going to have to do some giving in order for it 
to be accomplished.

Q. Well, by that do you—how do you relate that to my 
question as to your opinion as to whether it is desirable to 
resort to an artificial arrangement? A. "Well, as I under­
stood it, in your question you asked what did I think of 
gerrymandering boundaries in order to achieve desegre­
gation, and I thought I said that I favored it.

Q. I wasn’t sure from your answer. What is your opinion 
as to the desirability of a transfer policy allowing transfers

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



377a

of students for good cause without race as a factor? [27] 
A. In opinion that would be essential to operate a school 
system. There are, wThen you deal with thousands of people 
—well, we have a couple of hundred thousand in our school 
system in Dade County and you have got seventy-five 
thousand here, there are always some individuals who with­
out regard to race, and you can’t anticipate in advance the 
reason, so for justifiable cause not based on race then I 
would think such a policy would be good.

Q. What is your opinion based on your experience as to 
the desirability of having a small minority of one racial 
group, regardless of which it is, assigned to a school with a 
large majority of the other group? A. That is where I 
would prefer some kind of balance that you were talking 
about awhile ago. I think it is better to have a considera­
ble number of both races, both black and white races, in a 
particular school.

Q. Do you think it is undesirable to have a small minority 
of white students in a school with a great majority of negro 
students? A. No, no more so than I feel the same way 
about the blacks.

Q. Well, that is the next question I was going to ask. 
You think it is undesirable whether the minority is white 
or black? A. There again you come to certain kinds of 
values. You asked [28] me if I thought, asked me what I 
thought, and if I had my preferred situation, I would say 
have a considerable number of each race in a school.

Q. Well, with relationship then I gather you say that the 
next preferable thing would be to have the small minority, 
and then the next preferable would be to not have any of a

Deposition o f Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



378a

minority race? A. Well, I don’t know whether I would go 
that third step but I think you are getting into the opera­
tion of a school where you would release certain people 
because they are a minority and you get into all those prob­
lems and I don’t think at this time—let’s see, I have under­
gone a change there, too, in my own thinking. I went 
through it when I was a superintendent. We had what we 
called a, we had a transfer policy that would allow anybody 
regardless of race to transfer to any other school where 
they had room if he would furnish his own transportation. 
They had gone that far on that freedom of choice, but I 
came to the conclusion after working with that for a -while 
that that policy had to be discontinued.

Q. Well, this is a little bit different from what I am talk­
ing about, the concept of having a small minority of negro 
students assigned irrevocably to a school or a small minor­
ity of white students. Do you think that is desirable or un­
desirable? [29] A. That is not as desirable as having a 
larger number.

Q. Well, do you think it is desirable or undesirable?

Mr. Gorman: He has already answered the ques­
tion.

A. Yeah. Well, I don’t have a thought on it. You run into 
a case like this, you wTill have a school system that only has 
one person of a race. For instance, if you were in—what 
is some country?—Liberia, if you wanted to go to school, 
you would be the only one of the race.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



379a

Q. I am talking about Mobile, Alabama. A. Well, you 
didn’t say that.

Q. I thought we were dealing at least with the United 
States. A. Oh, I ’m sorry.

Q. I am not trying to be facetious but I thought we were 
all at least— A. Well, you have got situations of that kind 
say in Washington, D. C., or places like that. I think they 
ought to go to a school, if they live in the community, that 
there would be no necessity for a transfer.

Q. Then you don’t see any undesirability of placing a 
small minority of one race in a school with a large majority 
of the other race! A. I  think I tried to say that just as 
clearly as I could. I [30] see some undesirable things about 
it but they are not as undesirable as the recourse would be.

Q. In other words, they are undesirable except for your 
feeling of the necessity to achieve desegregation! A. I 
expect that would probably say it, yes.

Q. Okay. What is your professional opinion, Dr. Hall, 
on the general proposition of taking elementary school stu­
dents, youngsters, out of their neighborhood to a distant 
school removed from their neighborhood, as a general prop­
osition! A. As a general proposition I would not think 
it would be too good. As a specific proposition, though, I 
would.

Q. As a specific proposition to achieve desegregation you 
think it would! A. Yes, and to achieve some other things, 
yes.

Q. What is your professional opinion, Dr. Hall, on the 
neighborhood school concept generally! A. I think maybe 
all of us in education have been brought up with the idea 
that the neighborhood school was a good idea, and that the

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



380a

community and the school should work together as a total 
situation, and again I have undergone some change in my 
thinking because in your metropolitan areas your neighbor­
hoods break down and you just don’t have the neighbor­
hood any more even though you may have a group of people 
that live [31] close together.

Q. Okay. What is your professional opinion, Dr. Hall, 
on the concept—and I am not sure that I have it right, 
but on the concept of articulation, which I understand to 
be a concept of students moving in some sort of regular 
relationship to each other through the school program as 
well as being broken up about every year or so and sepa­
rated off into a different direction! A. "Well, I think it is 
a good thing to progress regularly through the school sys­
tems, though in our school system and I assume here, most 
everywhere where you have all these military people in and 
out, you change your locations all the time.

Q. What I have in mind I  think in the concept is where 
students identify with a school and progress through ele­
mentary school and give or six grades rather than being 
assigned to a different school each year. A. Well, I think 
that progression, if it follows along together, is good.

Q. Do you have any professional opinion from the stand­
point of your experience in the desegregation process as to 
whether it’s desirable or undesirable to have a substantial 
majority, a substantial minority of white students in a 
school with a majority of negro students in the particular 
school? [32] A. No particular opinion.

Q. No particular opinion? In that respect I have in mind 
by substantial minority say thirty percent, thirty-five per­

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



381a

cent, forty percent white minority and an otherwise negro 
majority. Yon have no opinion on that? A. No particular 
opinion.

Q. Have you ever had any opinion on that? A. Yes, I 
suppose so. I  guess it has grown a little bit out of my back­
ground and environment. I have had an opinion on that. 
I have sometimes felt that a school, if it went over your 
fifty percent mark with blacks, would resegregate and the 
community would then become black just while holding the 
same boundaries, while holding the same boundaries, and 
there is some indication that that has occurred. For in­
stance, in Mobile there are schools that were once all white 
which gradually turned black. Then I have sometimes 
thought also that the school system had an obligation, what­
ever its share of the responsibility was, to help to stabilize 
the community and not to encourage that type of thing 
where people sell their homes and move and all that sort 
of business, and if they get back to that very first question 
when you asked me about balancing, if you could balance 
all over, then the schools would not be having any effect 
upon your real estate property [33] or values or anything 
of that sort. It would help to stabilize the community.

Q. You think then it is desirable to set up this racial 
balance then to stabilize the community? A. Well, that is 
one value. I find it hard to answer your question just in 
terms of one value. You see, you have a whole group of 
values and you are bringing them out here one at a time, 
and to isolate one from the other, when you get down to 
making a final judgment, you have to bring all these values 
in, but that would achieve one value. That would help in

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



382a

the stabilizing of your community to whatever extent the 
schools are responsible for the, what is occurring in the 
community itself. Now, sometimes that occurs without 
the schools having anything to do with it.

Q. Then you think it would be desirable to work towards 
that in the school systems? A. Yes. I think it would have 
some values, yes.

Q. Can you give us your opinion based on your experi­
ence as to the effect on a group of students who are say 
lower achievers who are assigned into a school with a group 
who are achievers on a higher level and are placed thus into 
competition? Have you had any experience with that? A. 
Oh, yes.

[34] Q. What has been the result? A. Well, you have 
that in every classroom in every school system in the 
United States. You have people of varying abilities in the 
classroom, and the teachers in elementary schools, they 
work systematically with three or four groups and they 
alter their groups with respect to the type of subject matter 
they are handling and all that sort of thing.

Q. Do you find any undesirable effects where a group of 
lower achievers, where there is a marked difference in the 
achievers, on the two groups of students? A. Well, not 
unless they are what you call mentally retarded or unable, 
or emotionally unstable, so in throwing those two things 
out, there is no particular problem.

Q. Assume that you had a gap or say two or three years 
as far as their educational achievement level between one 
group of students and another that were placed in the same 
class— A. You have that all the time.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



383a

Q. Do you find that undesirable? A. Well, no.
Q. You don’t find anything undesirable about it? A. 

Well, no. I would have to say, if you want a direct answer, 
I would have to say no because you couldn’t operate a 
school without—there is no classroom that I know of any­
where that [35] doesn’t have that variation in it. They 
will not have a group that are completely homogeneous, 
and even there in a group that are completely homogeneous 
by intelligence, they will have that variation in the various 
subject areas. In any group of thirty kids you will have 
a range of at least three years in some different subjects.

Q. Between, say within a group of thirty kids you would 
have a range— A. Of at least three years, yes.

Q. Now, you mean a range with one student being on the 
lower end of the scale as compared with the top student, 
or a group half being on the lower end of the scale and 
half being on the top end? A. Well, some might be, in one 
subject area some might be ahead and in another subject 
area some of them might be.

Q. I am talking now about in elementary school. A. 
That is what I am talking about. You take the matter of 
arithmetic and reading, one student might be more ad­
vanced than the other in arithmetic and the other might 
be more advanced in reading or what-have-you.

Q. You don’t find then any undesirable effect on either 
the higher achievement group or the lower achievement 
group by placing the two groups together in a classroom 
situation? [36] A. No, sir. As a matter of fact, I hap­
pen to be a product myself of a school that had eight grades 
in one classroom and there were certain advantages of that 
and certain disadvantages.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



384a

Q. Where did you go to school, please, sir? A. I guess 
my first year of school was in Valleyhead. I was horn in 
Mintone, Alabama, and then I went to school in northeast 
Georgia way out in the country about thirty miles north 
of Athens until I was about twelve years old, and then I 
went into a graded school after I was in about the sixth 
grade, I mean where we had a whole grade in one class­
room, but my first five years it was all of us in one room.

Q. And you didn’t find any drawbacks there, did you? 
A. No, sir. As I said, there are certain advantages and 
certain disadvantages.

Q. Was this an integrated school? A. No, sir, not in 
northeast Georgia when I went to school.

Q. Dr. Hall, I will ask you for another expression of your 
professional opinion as to the desirability of forcing white 
students to attend a formerly negro school and vice versa 
if they do not wish to do so? A. I think I would have to 
say that I would favor requiring them to attend.

[37] Q. You think you would? A. Because every expe­
rience I have had, I mean we have built a new school and 
everybody wants to stay in the old one, and as soon as they 
get over there and get settled, why, they get just as happy 
within a month but they don’t like the idea but it works out 
all right once they get settled.

Q. All right. Now, you have explained that in terms of 
a new school. Would your opinion be the same with ref­
erence to an old established school? A. Yes.

Q. Requiring and forcing negro students to go into an 
otherwise all-white neighborhood to attend a school when 
they did not wish to and vice versa? A. Yes.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



385a

Q. You think this is desirable! A. Yes. Most of the 
objections I have run across from the community has been 
whites going to all-black schools, which in a way seems to 
me to negate some of the former arguments that all schools 
were equal which so many contended for so many years.

Q. And you don’t see any undesirability in this! I realize 
you think it’s desirable but—• A. I see some, I see a com­
munity reluctance, yes, because I have [38] run across 
that repeatedly but I don’t think that the school officials can 
give way to that reluctance and I don’t think there would 
be anything bad about it once it’s accomplished. I think it’s 
sort of the dread of the unknown or something. Once they 
get in it, then in a short time everything is running all 
right.

Q. What do you think then accounts for resegregation? 
A. Most of the resegregation with which I have had expe­
rience has been community rather than school. That is, 
what they call blockbusting and the people would begin to 
move away, and that’s where most of my experience lies.

Q. You haven’t found or you haven’t had any experience 
then with resegregation in terms of people moving to avoid 
one school and attain another? A. Just a little, yes. More 
in advance of the fact. I mean they move before they have 
even gotten into the school. There is a feeling that goes 
around the community. I guess that would come back a 
little bit too, if the school system were going to be a part 
say in the stabilizing of the community, it would really be 
better if you are going in terms of social planning, if you 
wanted to go so far as that, to just desegregate all the 
schools and then there wouldn’t be any of this fleeing or

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



386a

moving, but I guess that is one reason somewhere [39] 
in this report that we were inclined to feel that this was 
just an opinion and certainly we are not social engineers 
or anything of that kind, but it would seem to us that unless 
the Mobile school system and the Mobile planners took some 
positive steps, that the whole area east of the Expressway 
was apt to become black and the area west of the Express­
way was apt to become white unless somebody went out and 
really did some work on it because you could kind of see 
the movement that way.

Q. Now, as I recall, the plan that you submitted involved 
moving negro students out of the area east of the Express­
way? A. Into the area west, and part of that was—

Q. How does this stabilize the community? A. This 
would have the effect of showing them that it won’t do any 
good to move west of the Expressway because we are still 
going to be going to school with these black people and 
there wouldn’t be any point in moving. That is purely so­
cial and not educational, but also it does deal with the whole 
planned development of a community and I would—I know 
I was working in one school system where they were talking 
about desegregating the school and before they had even 
begun to do anything, people began to put their houses up 
for sale and they were going to move over to this other 
place, and if the word [40] had gotten out that this other 
place would be desegregated, too, then there wouldn’t have 
been any point in all of this real estate droppage.

Q. Now, do you think that it is essential in the deseg­
regation of a school system to eliminate every all-white 
school and every all-negro school? A. Let’s say that I

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



387a

would say that that was one of those desirable things but 
I don’t think it’s essential to meet the requirements of the 
law.

Q. As you understand the requirements of the law, you 
don’t think that it is necessary! A . I was told by several 
people for me not to start interpreting law so I had better 
not say what my understandings of the law are, but at least 
I have to operate in the framework of what I understand 
the law to be and I would think it would be desirable both 
—I guess I made this statement earlier, that it is desirable 
for all young people to have the experience of going to 
school with—and this really needs to be a part of your total 
educational planning. That is the only thing that I see it 
really in the long run, unless the people know each other 
and have experience with them, that in the way, one thing 
that our schools have done through the years, it has been 
a great melting pot where people have known each [41] 
other in addition to teaching reading, writing and arith­
metic.

Q. You think it is desirable then to seek to eliminate— 
A. Both all-white and all-black schools.

Q. Both all-white and all-black schools? A. And to do 
your very best, yes.

Q. Is this what you sought to do in the plan for Mobile? 
A. To the extent we could, yes, within reason. I have read 
the newspaper and I guess they don’t even consider that 
within reason, but within reason, yes.

Q. Okay. Is this what you did in Miami in your own 
school system? A. Not at the time, no, but as I said, the 
whole thing has gone through an evolutionary process, the

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



388a

concepts of desegregation. We went through a process of 
freedom of choice type of thing that everybody thought 
would have in it some possibilities. Then we went through 
the process of asking ourselves if we had never had a dual 
school system, would we have a school there, and if the 
answer was no, we closed that school, but the—

Q. Wait a minute. Let me ask you this. I don’t mean 
to cut you off but getting back to a specific question. When 
did you eliminate in the Miami system the existence of all 
all-white and all all-black schools? [42] A. They haven’t 
been eliminated. They aren’t eliminated in this Mobile 
plan.

Q. How many are there in the plan you submitted for 
Mobile f A. I think there are five.

Q. How many are there in Miami, do you know? A. Not 
right off-hand. There are more than that.

Q. Could you give me some general idea? A. No, I 
couldn’t.

Q. At the time you were superintendent could you give 
me some general idea? A. Not without looking it up.

Q. Just within, can you give me a ballpark figure as to 
your recollection? A. I wouldn’t want to give an opinion 
on that. I would rather look it up and I can look it up for 
you. I always thought of it the other way, of the ones that 
I was eliminating rather than the ones that I had left.

Q. All right. How many did you eliminate? A. Well, 
we closed down four former all-black high schools and quite 
a number moved into desegregated schools.

Q. Well, would you say that seventy-five percent of your 
schools— A. I think at the present time there is one all­
black high school and one nearly all-black.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



389a

[43] Q. What about all-white? A. There is one all- 
white and two others that are nearly all-white.

Q. And that was for the 1968-69 school year that they 
existed in Miami? A. That was the last year, yes. One of 
those had resegregated.

Q. How about the year before that, do you remember? 
Was it roughly the same? A. I believe we had a couple 
of all-blacks that we closed down. Now, I am swearing to 
these things, that I am telling the whole truth, but the tim­
ing on these things—what I am saying is true but the time 
may not be true, the exact time. (Pause) I have eliminated 
all but one black high school. We had twenty-two schools 
and I have eliminated all of them but one and then one 
other, though, became resegregated but I don’t think the 
schools were responsible for that. That is what I was going 
into because I think it was just a community movement.

Q. All right. Who contacted you with reference to your 
working in the Mobile school system? A. Mr. Jordan, 
J. J. Jordan.

Q. J. J. Jordan. When did he contact you? A. On Fri­
day, June the 6th.

[44] Q. And how did he contact you? A. By telephone.
Q. And what did he ask you to do? A. He asked me 

if I would come out here and direct a survey for the study 
of the Mobile school system for the Office of Education and 
I guess he said that it was, that it had to be done in thirty 
days or something like that.

Mr. Gorman: I will have a running objection to 
the hearsay.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



390a

Q. All right. Now, when did you come to Mobile! A. On 
the 10th. Yes, on Jnly the 10th. I ’m sorry, June the 10th. 
I ’m sorry, June the 10th.

Q. Yes, June the 10th. All right. Prior to the time yon 
came to Mobile did you discuss this with anyone else that 
you were coming to Mobile! A. Only with Dr. Stolee.

Q. Dr. Stolee. Identify him fully, if you will. A. He is 
the Director of the Florida School Desegregation Consult­
ing Center and is my immediate superior. S T O L double 
E, Dr. Michael Stolee.

Q. Okay. And after you talked with Mr. Jordan on June 
the 6th, when did you talk with him about this again, do you 
recall ? A. Oh, shortly after I got here. He was in Tampa. 
His wife was in the hospital and I called him, I don’t recall 
the exact [45] time. He told me that he would come out 
just as soon as he could to assist and I told him all we were 
going ahead and doing. He gave us a sort of an outline 
of the kind of thing that he had wanted done and then we 
proceeded to work on that basis.

Q. What information were you given prior to coming to 
Mobile about the Mobile school system! A. Well, just 
about its size, about how, its approximate size, the ap­
proximate number of students, the approximate number of 
schools, and whether it was a County unit or an individual 
unit, and whether it was under court order or under 
H.E.W., and what the, a little bit of the nature of the prob­
lem though not all of the nature of the problem.

Q. What was the nature of the problem! A. Well, the 
nature of the problem was that it was a study that had been 
ordered by the court.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



391a

Q. Is that all you have reference to when you say the 
nature of the problem? A. Well, the other part was that, 
that I didn’t know about, was that the school system didn’t 
want us. At least I gathered that after I got here from 
some of the comments that I heard in the paper and from 
some of the School Board members, because I had always 
been in the proposition where I had always [46] been 
asked in by the school system rather than by the court. 
It was the first time I had had that situation.

Q. Did Mr. Jordan tell you in advance whether you were 
being called in by the school system? A. No, we didn’t go 
into that detail but I had worked on enough on them and 
he had seen enough of my reports that he knew that I would 
know how to proceed, I guess, when I got here.

Q. When you got here, were you under the impression 
that you had been invited by the school system? A. No, 
I wasn’t under the impression one way or the other. It just 
hadn’t crossed my mind.

Q. Had you had any contact with the Mobile school sys­
tem before you came here? A. Not greatly. I had met the 
Superintendent at meetings but I didn’t know much about 
the school system.

Q. Other than that, you didn’t have any knowledge of the 
school system? A. No.

Q. What was your opinion, if any, of the Mobile school 
system before you came here? A. Well, that they had a 
good school system.

Q. Any other opinion? A. No, none in particular. I 
don’t know that I had even thought [47] about it enough 
to have an opinion one way or the other.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



392a

Q. Has your opinion changed or is it still the same? 
A. What is that?

Q. Yonr opinion, yon said yon thought they had a good 
school system.

Mr. Gorman: I think he further qualified that and 
said he is not sure whether he had an opinion at all.

Mr. Philips: Read back the last two or three ques­
tions and answers.

A. No, my opinion hasn’t changed.
Q. Okay. That’s all right then. What instructions were 

you given? What were you told to do? What directions 
were you given? A. I was given the general directions 
that we needed a report similar to many that they had been 
doing up in South Carolina, that we ought to have about 
five or six sections to the report, one giving something of 
the background of the community, and another giving the 
basic data about the school system, particularly as it was 
related to desegregation, some information about the finan­
cial structure of the school system, and about the course 
of study, and then with that as a background, to develop 
some kind of a plan for desegregation along the lines of the 
court order.

[48] Q. All right. When you came to Mobile, Hr. Hall, 
what plan of action or procedure did you— A. I had been 
told by Mr. Jordan that the financing of the study would 
be through the University of South Alabama Center, I for­
get its exact title. It’s a project very similar to the one, 
and that they might have, they would probably have some

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



393a

information and that I ought to find my way around, have 
a chat before I started with a Dr. Bjork, B J 0  R K, who 
is the Director of that Center, and he might have some in­
formation about the Mobile school system, and that I did 
when I got here on the 10th. I didn’t get here until about, 
oh, 3:30 or 4:00 o’clock. I drove from Orlando, and I re­
ported to him or talked to him briefly and asked him where 
the school offices were and who was heading up the school 
program and what-have-you, and then I believe it was the 
next day that I made contact with Mr. McPherson.

Q. Did you have any specific information concerning the 
school system, about the school system from Mr. Bjork 1 
A. He had a lot of data, yes. He had copies of the court 
orders. I guess the Center keeps those for all school sys­
tems here, and he had copies of the maps that had, of the 
July 29th court order, the boundaries for the elementary 
and junior high schools, and information about the freedom 
of choice for the high schools [49] and for the rural area, 
and then he also had a copy of the building study that the 
court had, that the school system had given to the court 
which gave a school by school description of each building 
and, oh, he had data about the number of pupils by grade 
level in each school that somebody had, I think it had been 
part of the court order. That information was all on file 
there in the office and I looked it up.

Q. Did he say where he acquired this information! A. I 
didn’t ask him.

Q. Do you know where he acquired this information! A. 
I assume he got it from the courts as part of it, or he might 
have gotten it from the school system, I don’t know. It was

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



394a

just mimeographed, it was duplicated stuff. I assume he 
got it from the school system hut I don’t know. I did get 
myself similar kinds of information from the school system 
later and it turned out to he, some of it to he the same thing.

Q. Now, as I understand it, your purpose was to conduct, 
as you described it or as you characterized it, a study of 
the Mobile school system? A. On desegregation, yes.

Q. On desegregation. And then what to do after con­
ducting the studies? What then? A. To develop a plan, 
help develop a plan, work according to [50] the—at that 
point I moved over onto my own and to work cooperatively 
with the school system in developing a plan, if possible, to 
be presented thirty days after June the 3rd, so I assumed 
that was July the 2nd, and so then I met with representa­
tives of the school system, Mr. McPherson, and we talked 
through plans and we determined that any information that 
I wanted should be requested in writing and I indicated 
some of the kinds of data that I would need and then we 
set up a procedure for proceeding with the planning.

Q. What sort of reception did you get by Mr. McPherson? 
A. Very cordial, very nice.

Q. Were they cooperative in working with you? A. Cer­
tainly in providing all data, yes.

Q. Did you come in, Dr. Hall, with any instructions as 
to what should or should not be included in the details of 
the plan that you were going to develop? A. No, sir.

Q. What basis then did you use to develop the plan? A. 
Well, the basis that we agreed on in conference was that—

Q. No, I mean what—•

Deposition o f Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



395a

Mr. Crawford: Let the witness answer. I object 
to that. Let him finish his answer.

Mr. Philips: The witness is not responding to my 
question.

[51] Mr. Crawford: Yes, the witness is answer­
ing yonr question.

Q. What basis were you attempting to achieve that with?

Mr. Crawford: Now, we object to that. A specific 
question was asked this witness and this witness was 
attempting to answer it and I don’t think the witness 
was giving the answer you wanted and you inter­
rupted him.

Mr. Philips: I will withdraw that question and re­
phrase my question, Mr. Crawford.

Mr. Gorman: I ’m sorry. I would like for the wit­
ness to be able to finish the answer. Finish the an­
swer, please, and then you can rephrase the question.

Q. What were you attempting to achieve when you came 
into the school system? What result were you attempting 
to achieve, Dr. Hall?

Mr. Gorman: Excuse me. If I could ask the wit­
ness to finish his answer to the question—

Mr. Philips: You will have a chance to cross- 
examine him on anything you want to.

Mr. Gorman: I think it is improper to interrupt 
the witness while he is in the midst of answering a 
question. I request the court reporter to read the

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



396a

portion of his answer that lie was giving and let him 
determine whether or not he had answered.

Q. All right. Go ahead. [52] A. I don’t remember what 
I was saying.

Q. I don’t either, but go ahead.

Reporter: What basis then did you use to develop 
the plan? Well, the basis that we agreed on in con­
ference was that—

Q. All right. Go ahead and finish your answer. A. Was 
that the school system being more familiar with the school 
system and being under the same court order would first 
develop a plan, and then we would look at that to see what 
further needed to be done about it. There was disagree­
ment on the procedure from that point forward, and at that 
point we set up a schedule to do this. I guess we suggested 
that we would then look at the plan, both the school sys­
tem’s staff and the staff we would have with us for the 
study, and try to answer three questions from this plan. 
One, could boundary lines be altered to achieve greater de­
segregation? Two, could there be any pairing of schools 
that might achieve greater desegregation? Or three, could 
the grade levels of any particular school be changed to 
effect desegregation? And we didn’t agree on that pro­
cedure so we had to do that part on our own.

Q. All right. Now, what were you attempting to achieve 
in the development of the plan ? A. To achieve as much de­
segregation as possible.

[53] Q. All right. And what were the priority of factors 
or values that you had in mind in the development of the

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



397a

plan? What was the primary objective? A. The primary 
objective was to desegregate the schools.

Q. To achieve as much desegregation as possible? A. 
Yes.

Q. What about other educational factors? A. Well, cer­
tainly those were involved. I believe we—in terms of the 
school organization and structure and what-have-you, to fit 
all those in together as much as possible.

Q. But they were secondary to the achievement of de­
segregation ? A. Not necessarily, no. I mean they were 
part and parcel of the same thing.

Q. Well, as you set out in your work, where there was a 
departure and you could remain only faithful to one or the 
other, either consistent with the objective of achieving max­
imum desegregation or remaining consistent to educational 
principles, which was paramount ? A. I don’t believe we 
ran across a case of that sort.

Q. Had you run across a case of that sort, wdiich would 
have been paramount?

Mr. G-orman: That’s hypothetical and it calls for 
a conclusion of the witness based on facts not pres­
ent in the record.

[54] Mr. Philips: He is an expert witness.

A. Well, I don’t know. The schools exist for the purpose 
of education and the question just didn’t, that particular 
question didn’t come up.

Q. All right. What about the relative values of your ob­
jective of achieving desegregation and the objective of com­

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



398a

ing up with, a plan that is administratively feasible, which 
was the most important! A. Again both of them are part 
and parcel of the same thing.

Q. So you didn’t find any conflict then! Everything you 
came up with was administratively feasible! A. Yes.

Q. And educationally sound! A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Your instructions— A. I might say, I might 

add on this point that there was some plans that the school 
system already had that called for the expenditure of sums 
of money, and we assumed that the school system, since 
they had those plans, had that money and that the money 
would be available to spend. I mean I could go specifically. 
For example, the school system was proposing to build a 
new high school called Toulminville or something of that 
sort, and a new elementary school I believe to replace
[55] Howard or to add to Howard. Now, it was assumed 
that those funds would be available to be spent somewhere 
or the other.

Q. All right. Now, your primary purpose when you came 
in, were you instructed to develop a plan to desegregate 
the school system! Is that the primary instruction you 
were given! A. Yes. That was the court order. The in­
structions were in the court order. We had the same in­
structions as the school system had here. We were both 
working under the same court order.

Q. What information did you gather while you were 
here! A. Beg your pardon!

Q. What information did you gather while you were 
here! A. I gathered the information about the schools, 
their locations, what they, the size of them, their capacities,

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



399a

and the number of pupils by race in each school, the num­
ber of pupils that were transported, the number of mem­
bers of the faculty of each race in each school, and a whole 
host of things that are all included, most of them are in­
cluded in the report. Then I went myself on Saturdays and 
Sundays to visit. I visited all the schools in the rural area 
and I visited several schools in the metropolitan area but 
not all of them.

Q. How many would you say you visited in the metro­
politan area? A. Oh, I would say twenty.

[56] Q. Which ones? A. Well, I specifically visited the 
Vigor and Blount and Carver and Bienville, however you 
pronounce that school, and also Williamson and Craighead 
and Toulminville and, oh, I forget all of them.

Q. These are the only ones you can think of? A. The 
only ones I can think of right off, yes, but there were a 
number of others I just don’t remember.

Q. Who else did you talk to other than Mr. Bjork and 
Mr. McPherson during the time you were working on the 
Mobile project? A. You mean since I was in Mobile?

Q1. Yes. A. Who else in Mobile?
Q. Yes, with reference to this matter. A. Well, not spe­

cifically with reference to this I talked with the dean out 
there—what is his name, Hadley, a Dr. Hadley? Is that 
his name?

Q. At the University of South Alabama? A. Yes. Is that 
his name?

Q. Yes. But specifically with reference to this who did 
you talk to? A. Well, I talked to some fellow that drove 
me around all day, a fellow by the name of, gosh, Wheeler, 
but just about things [57] in general, nothing specific

Deposition of Dr. Joe Dali on July 15, 1969



400a

about it. He took me, he drove me all day long one day, 
and then they have a young man there in the Center by the 
name of Nallia. I just talked with him generally about it. 
As a matter of fact, I did ask him to gather the data and 
write the material for Chapter One—that is, the Mobile 
background of it. He went down to the Chamber of Com­
merce and various other places on that Chapter One.

Q. Who is this! A. Nallia, N A L L I A ,  Bill Nallia.
Q. And where is he located? A. He is at the University 

of South Alabama.
Q. Is he a professor or a student? A. I am not sure. He 

works in the Center, I think.
Q. You don’t know whether he is a professor or a stu­

dent? A. Well, I don’t know just exactly what his title is, 
no.

Q. And he wrote one of the chapters of the report? A. 
Yes. He wrote the Chapter One or gathered the data for 
the Chapter One.

Q. All right. Who else? A. Now, you mean, you are 
talking about here in Mobile or people that I brought in ?

Q. No, I am talking about here in Mobile. A. Well, as 
far as that—well, of course, there were secretaries, [58] 
I don’t even remember their names. We had three. One of 
them was named—

Q. That’s all right. You needn’t go into that. Who else? 
A. Then there was a fellow by the name of Davis, a man 
by the name of Davis who did some research for us, and—

Q. Where is he located? A. I think he’s a student out at 
South Alabama.

Q. Give me his full name, if you have it. A. Well, I don’t 
have it. Let’s see. Don, I believe.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



401a

Q. How would you contact him! A. Don. If I wanted to 
try to reach him, I would call the University of South 
Alabama.

Q. And just ask for Davis? A. Well now, wait a minute. 
I may have something here that would be better. (Pause) 
But his work was more superficial. He did some mimeo­
graphing and some counting, counting figures for us.

Q. You mentioned previously he did some research. A. 
Looking up this data about this Chapter One. There was 
a lot of information on it.

Q. Do you know if he is a student or a professor! A. I 
am sure he is a student, a graduate student. I ’d call 344- 
3400 and extension 286 or 287, but he was not involved in 
[59] the, in any of the decision making. He just was sort 
of an errand boy.

Q. All right. Who else? A. That’s all.
Q. Did you talk with any school teacher? A. No.
Q. Or any school principal? A. No.
Q. Any student? A. No. I was told to do all my talking 

to Mr. McPherson.
Q. Or any school patron or citizen? A. No.
Q. Any of the Mobile City Planning Commission? A. I 

didn’t. I think some of our reseachers went down there.
Q. Who did? A. I don’t know whether they talked to 

them or not. I said I think maybe they did.
Q. But you don’t know? A. No, I don’t know.
Q. Who would it have been? A. Well, it would have been 

Nallia or Davis or Bjork or some of them who were doing 
this Chapter One.

Q. All right. Who are some of them? [60] A. I just 
said.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



402a

Q. When you said, you named three and then said or 
some of them. A. Or whoever else they might have had. 
I don’t know who they had digging up the—if you have 
read the report, the Chapter One is about Mobile County, 
and so we just gave them that project, gave Dr. Bjork 
that project.

Q. So if they talked with them, it would have been only 
with reference to Chapter One? A. That’s correct.

Q. All right. In your development of the other chapters 
of the report, did you or anybody else talk with the City 
Planning Commission on that aspect of it? A. No.

Q. How about the Regional Planning Commission? A. 
No, sir.

Q. The City Commission? A. No, sir.
Q. The County Commission? A. No, sir.
Q. The P.T.A. Council? A. No, sir.

Mr. Gorman: I will object to all those questions— 
Mr. Philips: You are a little late to object to the 

questions.
[61] Mr. Gorman: And move that they be stricken 

and the answers in that the question went not only 
to the witness’s knowledge but whether anyone else 
talked to these people.

A. And also the question was that we were instructed to 
deal entirely with Mr. McPherson.

Q. Instructed by whom? A. By Mr. McPherson.
Q. You mean to tell me— A. About anything that had to 

do with the schools.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



403a

Q. Anything from the school system? A. Anything from 
the school system.

Q. You mean to tell me you did not go to the City Plan­
ning Commission because Mr. Pherson had instructed you 
not to? A. No, sir, that would not have had any bearing 
on that. I was talking about the schools.

Q. If you had wanted to go to the City Planning Com­
mission— A. If I had wanted to go to the P.T.A. or to 
the City, or to a school teacher or what-have-you on some 
of those questions, I would have first asked Mr. McPherson.

Q. And did you ask him to do so? A. No.
Q. What about the City Planning Commission, would you 

have asked him to deal with them? [62] A. No.
Q. What about the Housing Board? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you consult with them at all? A. No.
Q. Did anyone under your knowledge, anyone working 

with you? A. Not to my knowledge unless they did it in 
connection with Chapter One.

Q. Dr. Hall, the desegregation plan now that you have 
submitted to the court—well, before I go into that, let me 
pursue another line of thought. We have asked these ques­
tions of you concerning your contact with people in Mobile. 
What about people outside of Mobile, with whom have you 
had contact in connection with this matter? A. With, we 
had a Dr. Woodward—is that his name? Yes, Woodward, 
a Dr. Woodward from the University of Alabama who came 
in and helped with the preparation or did the major part 
of the work on the preparation of the chapter on school 
finance. We had a Mr. Blue from Auburn, Auburn Univer­
sity, who did a lot of work in connection with map making 
and the development and checking of tables, and—

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



404a

Q. Did he come to Mobile to do that work? A. Yes, and 
we had a Dr. Michael Stolee who came in to help with 
[63] the desegregation plan itself, and a Dr. Weincoff, 
W E I N C 0  double F, I believe, Dr. Weinkoff from the 
University of South Alabama who also came in and worked 
with the desegregation plan itself. Of conrse, Mr. Jordan, 
and then we conferred with others such as Mr. Anrig and 
members of his staff.

Q. Mr. Anrig? A. Yes.
Q. Who is he? A. He is the—well, he is the head of all 

this Title IV business in Washington. Now, just what his 
title is, I am not completely clear but he is the head man 
anyhow. He would be what—excuse me, do you know his 
name or title?

Mr. Gorman: I am not sure whether he is called 
the director. He is the head of all the Title IV opera­
tion there.

Q. Dr. Anrig? A. A N R I G, Gregory, Mr. Gregory 
Anrig, or Greg, we called him Greg.

Q. And other members of his staff, you said? A. Yes. I 
don’t know their names.

Q. How many other members of his staff? A. Oh, I 
would say three or four others.

Q. Were they here in Mobile? A. No.
[64] Q. Did you confer with them up there or by tele­

phone? A. No, in New Orleans.
Q. In New Orleans? When was this? A. Saturday, I 

think it was the 29th.
Q. The 29th? A. June 29th.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



405a

Q. Okay. To whom did you report directly with refer­
ence to your work? A. Mr. Jordan.

Q. What was your purpose in conferring with Mr. Anrig? 
A. Well, Mr. Anrig is Mr. Jordan’s superior. He is the 
representative of the Office of Education and would have 
to assume, I guess, final responsibility for anything we do.

Q. And what was the nature of your contact with him? 
What did you do? A. To review the general developments 
of the plan.

Q. Hid he give you any instructions or directions or sug­
gestions? A. There were some, yes.

Q. What? A. One of them to stay away from expressing 
my opinion on legal matters.

Q. What else? A. I had something in there that this, 
according to the court [65] this seems to, according to 
our interpretation what the Judge said seems to mean so 
and so and he just said that wasn’t our business, to let the 
lawyers do what the things were. I think you would prob­
ably find that further information about him would be 
better obtained from Mr. Jordan because I was in and out 
of the room a good bit of the time working on two or three 
different things. I know you have subpoenaed Mr. Jordan 
so I would think you would get more information from him 
on that.

Q. Perhaps I will go into that with him but I would like 
to know from you what the nature of your contact was and 
what instructions he gave you? A. We had written a pre­
liminary report and he made a few suggestions. The only 
one I recall specifically is the one I just remembered, 
though I do remember there were two or three other points 
of a similar kind. I guess two or three times in something

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



406a

I had written I had made reference to the law and what- 
have-you and he told me to stay away from that, to let you 
lawyers do that.

Q. Did you report to him and at that time did you have 
a map indicating— A. Yes.

Q. What you had developed? A. Yes.
[66] Q. Did he suggest any changes in these, in the sub­

stance of your approach? A. Yes.

Mr. Gorman: This is—okay, fine, go ahead.

Q. What suggestions? A. Well, one of them, and I notice 
it is still in the report—

Mr. Gorman: Let me state here that this is hear­
say and my objection is a running one to the conver­
sations as might have been or what might have been 
said to Dr. Hall.

A. There is one on page ninety-eight that is still in the re­
port. We didn’t get it out of the written. We got it out of 
the map, but I wanted to correct that one thing. Under a 
school called Whistler it says the Whistler attendance zone 
is made up of two non-contiguous areas.

Mr. Crawford: What page are you on?

A. Page ninety-eight. That should be struck because at the 
time I remember there was a plan to, the basic plan had, 
there was some more room in that building and they were 
looking for room, and the plan had taken some students in 
a very round-about way to that school, and he thought that

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



407a

was impractical and should be eliminated. It was quite an 
involved procedure. It wasn’t just going from one place 
to another, but in order to get there, you had to go way 
around the country. You couldn’t [67] there like the crow 
flies or anything like that.

Q. A you-can’t-get-there-from-here sort of situation? A. 
That’s right, and he thought that was impractical and 
thought it should be eliminated and we did eliminate it 
from the map but I note it’s still in there. That first sen­
tence ought to really be struck.

Q. He was the one that you submitted your entire pre­
liminary plan to for approval? A. Yes.

Q. And this was on the 29th of June? A. Yes. I think 
he also made the suggestion there, if I recall right, and I 
want you to verify this with Mr. Jordan, that the legality 
of transportation was a matter for the courts and for the 
lawyers to decide and we ought to put some kind of state­
ment in there to that effect, that that question needed to be 
answered by the court and not by us, and the court had 
said you can, had said desegregate the schools. Now, they 
didn’t say do it by transportation and they didn’t say to 
use transportation or not to use transportation but it was 
very evident that, if you were going to desegregate some 
of those schools, you were going to have to use some trans­
portation. Now, that one there never has been a clear-cut 
answer on it. They just said desegregate them but not how.

[68] Q. This preliminary report you submitted, did he 
keep that or did he return it to you? A. Oh, we brought 
it back.

Q. Who has that? A. I don’t know who has it.
Q. Who had it when you last saw it? A. About ten dif­

ferent people. I mean we were, we took the preliminary

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



408a

report and then we started mimeographing it with correc­
tions. We had another lady from the Washington office 
who was very good at editing and, at least I thought so, I 
have found a few mistakes in here, but at any rate she just 
took it apart and handed some to one, we had three secre­
taries and some to one and some to another. We were in a 
rush to get the thing mimeographed. We had then at that 
point set up a conference for Tuesday morning and we had 
to be ready for that conference.

Q. Where was this work done? A. At Brookley, Brook- 
ley Air Force.

Q. This is where you made your headquarters? A. Yes. 
There were some facilities out there that are owned by the 
University now, I guess. They were in the process of 
changing it, by the University of South Alabama. Now, 
the University of South Alabama was not involved in this 
study [69] directly except the parts of the thing, except 
the financing of the thing. They have a Title IV project.

Q. How would I get a copy of this preliminary report? 
A. I  don’t think you can.

Q. Has it been destroyed? A. I would assume so because 
I mean it was not considered to have any value. I have 
some parts of it in here, some parts that I had written that 
in my personal pride I thought were better than some 
of the things were edited into so I just kept them in case 
I needed to use them again, but I have got some parts of 
it right in here. I ’ve got a part of Chapter Five in here. 
Although at the time we talked over there, the best thing 
we had was the maps and we talked from the maps and 
not from any preliminary draft. We had a preliminary 
draft of all of the chapters except the Chapter Five. I  had

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



409a

written some stuff, some material for the Chapter Five 
which I had sent to Mr. McPherson for his review, just a 
kind of an outline, and I think this was Mr. Jordan’s de­
cision, he didn’t like it so he substituted or they substituted 
other material for this Chapter Five so it never did get 
into the report.

Q. Do you know who wrote this other material? A. 
Yes. Different ones helped.

[70] Q. Who composed the other material? A. Well, 
I would say the primary composer was Mr. Jordan. I 
helped write some parts of it, and Mr. Weincoff wrote good 
parts of it, Dr. Stolee wrote some parts of it, or at least 
the data or the information about it.

Q. All right. While you were in New Orleans with the 
maps in your discussion with Mr. Anrig, were changes made 
in the maps as a result of these discussions? A. The one 
thing about those kids going up to Whistler, that change 
was made, and then the plan for the rural area, they asked 
us to review that again and made some suggestions about 
what to do if we could.

Q. Who asked you to review it again? A. Mr. Anrig 
and some of the people on his staff.

Q. What was wrong with it? A. Well, there was an all- 
white-—let’s see. Two or three things came up. One, 
whether Calcedeavor was a black school or a white school, 
and then another one was that there was a school called 
Griggs that was all-white and a school just—what is it, an 
island, some island—Hollinger’s Island was virtually all 
white. There were a considerable number of blacks in Davis 
and Burroughs, and they just asked us to check to see if 
there wasn’t some kind of way where some of those pupils

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



410a

[71] could be placed in Griggs to integrate Griggs and 
Hollinger’s Island, to see if we could, and I guess on the 
final analysis we did not. We drew an arrow and said if it 
could be done, do it but that we did not have time to 
finish that.

Q. You did not have time to make the determination? 
A. To make the determination, that’s right.

Q. All right. Who else did you talk to besides Mr. Anrig 
and the several people you have mentioned? I believe you 
said there were several others. A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who else have you talked to outside of Mobile? A. 
I think that is all. That is all I can recall right off.

Q. Now, Dr. Stolee and Dr. Weincoff, when did they come 
to Mobile? A. Weincoff was here—well, they both were 
here Thursday and Friday, the 26th and 27th.

Q. Thursday and Friday, the 26th and 27th of June? A. 
That’s right.

Q. Had they worked on the project prior to coming to 
Mobile? A. Yes, they knew they were coming and we 
had sent them just some preliminary data, like I had sent 
them a copy of the material and the rough draft we had 
on it up until that time to give them a little background 
on the situation. We had all the maps. Mr. McPherson 
had given us spot maps of the [72] metropolitan area and 
we had all the maps, and then we—

Q. Excuse me. By spot maps you mean maps locating 
the— A. Pupil locater maps, I believe you all call them, 
yes, and really are by numbers rather by spots, and then 
we also had the proposals which the school system had 
made in compliance with the court order, together with 
the figures that, with the approximate figures that would

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



411a

be in each school, and we had all of that data which was 
available and worked from that data in interpreting any 
new kind of arrangements that could be set up.

Q. Who actually drew—Dr. Stolee and Dr. Weincoff then 
worked on this on Thursday and Friday when they were in 
Mobile? A. Yes.

Q. Who actually drew the maps setting out the attend­
ance areas represented by your report? A. WTell, I would 
say that that was a sort of a cooperative undertaking. We 
would sit there and look and study and analyze and some­
body would go up and say could you do it this way or 
could you do it that way.

Q. All right. When were these drawn? A. When were 
these maps drawn?

Q. Yes. A. On that Thursday and Friday.
[73] Q. All right. Who were the people—-you say it 

was a cooperative process. Who were, name the people 
who were involved in this cooperative process? A. Well, 
I would say the ones who were involved in the line drawing 
were those four, Stolee, Weincoff, Jordan and Hall.

Q. By Hall you are referring to yourself? A. To myself, 
yes, and the-—

Q. And the decisions where to place the lines? A. Well, 
we had some other people like Mr. Blue that we would 
say if you did this, how many people are involved and so 
they would go count.

Q. Checking the figures? A. Yes.
Q. Who was involved in the decision making process as 

to where to locate the lines? A. The four.
Q. You and Dr.— A. Stolee, Weincoff and Jordan.
Q. Okay. When did Dr. Stolee arrive in Mobile ? A. On 

Thursday night.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



412a

Q. And when did Dr. Weincoff arrive in Mobile? A. 
Thursday noon about, right after, shortly after noon. In­
cidentally we worked practically all night that night plus 
practically [74] all night Friday night and all day.

Q. Do you think the desegregation plan that you sub­
mitted to the court is the best desegregation plan for the 
Mobile public school system? A. I would think that there 
could probably be some adjustments in it that would im­
prove it.

Q. Do you think you had adequate time to do what you 
were called upon to do? A. In terms of what we did, yes.

Q. What did you do? Explain your answer a little bit 
further. A. Well, we proposed certain things that could 
be done in one year, and then we—that is, starting Sep­
tember the 1st, certain things that could be done. We pro­
posed certain other things that could be done a year later, 
but we stated that the boundaries might have to be shifted 
one way or the other a little to get your figures and capaci­
ties right.

Q. Is this because you didn’t have time to locate them 
specifically? A. That is part of it. Part of it is between 
now and then there will be some changes. I mean there 
are changes every year.

Q. Well, I am talking about September now. You have 
recommended something for September. There won’t be 
any change back and forth between now and the opening 
of school in September, [75] will there? A. There could 
be, there could be. Just like in the July 29th court order 
you went back to the court and got a change made in one 
of the schools, Morningside School, and so if some obvi­
ous improvement could be made, then it could be adjusted

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



413a

or it certainly would be my recommendation that were ad­
justments were warranted, that the court ought to permit it.

Q. Well, the maps you have submitted then don’t rep­
resent any definite recommendations as to locations or lines? 
A. Yes, they represent a definite location but they also 
indicate that the probabilities are they may have to be 
shifted a little. I have never seen a school system yet where 
you didn’t have to make some adjustments, but the basic 
ideas are all there and sound and I would think that prob­
ably the people in the school system could make some ad­
justments one way or the other.

Q. For what purposes, why would you make adjustments, 
in order to reconcile school capacities with the enrollment— 
A. Yes.

Q. Based on the lines? A. Yes.
Q. What other factors would you think would necessitate 

an adjustment? [76] A. Well, that is the only factors I 
can think of right off.

Q. So the only reason you didn’t definitely locate the 
lines then is— A. We did definitely locate the lines but 
we said that also that there might need to be slight adjust­
ments in them.

Q. Do you think you had sufficient time to develop, to do 
the work you were called on to do? A. No, sir, there is 
never time to do anything thoroughly. I think there was 
sufficient time to develope the basic concept but I don’t 
think there was sufficient time to work out all the details.

Q. What was the basic concept that you developed with 
reference to the rural schools? A. Well, the basic concept 
there, we took the proposals made by the school system to 
see if they met the desegregation plans and then made ad­
justments in them where we didn’t think they fully met

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



414a

them, and we made one that just seemed like better adminis­
tration but that was not really a desegregation matter.

Q. What changes did you make in the school system pro­
posal? A. In the rural?

Q. Yes. A. In the rural we changed Burroughs which 
was virtually an all-black school down near Theodore, if 
you know the school, and [77] it was a one to six virtually 
all black and we said we could not go with that, there had 
to be an integrated school, so we made it a six to eight 
school instead of a one to six and took the junior high out 
of Theodore and put the junior high in Burroughs, the 
seventh and eighth grade, and the sixth grade out of Davis 
and put it in Burroughs and then that integrated all of the 
schools. At the same time in a personal conversation with 
Mr. McPherson I said if you’ve got a better way to do this, 
just to get it integrated, well, that will be fine but we just 
couldn’t leave it all black.

Q. The only reason for the change then was to avoid 
leaving it an all-black school? A. Yes.

Q. What other changes were made? A. Well, the only 
other changes we made, we suggested that the seventh to 
twelfth, I mean the sixth through eighth attendance lines 
in, for Citronelle be the same as the senior high, and then 
the consolidation of Mount Vernon and Delsaw be for a 
one to five setup but also include Calcedeaver in the one to 
five, and then drop down a little further south and pick up 
some of the Lee students.

Q. Why was this change made? A. Well, it seemed like 
better administration, better operation. [78] The Calce­
deaver children were virtually all on busses already. That 
whole school is transported already and it just seemed

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



415a

like a better operation to us to put it that way. Now, there 
was a big question came up, though, about the Calcedeaver 
children are listed as white and Delsaw, the Delsaw-Mount 
Vernon area is predominantly black, and by putting the 
Calcedeaver children in you’ve got a greater number of 
white, these people who are classified as white. I don’t 
know whether they are white or not.

Q. And you recommended closing the Calcedeaver school? 
A. Yes. Now, the County plans, their general plans were 
to build a one to eight school, a consolidated school to re­
place Delsaw and Mount Vernon.

Q. For September? A. No.
Q. Well, let me ask you this: The change that was re­

quired or recommended in connection with the Burroughs 
School that you have mentioned and Calcedeaver, in Bur­
roughs was in order to avoid having an all-black school. 
Who made the determination that a change would have 
to be made in order to accomplish that result? A. Mr. 
Jordan and I.

Q. Did you feel that it was necessary to avoid having an 
all-black [79] school? A. Yes.

Q. Did you feel that the court order requires that? A. 
Yes.

Q. Can you show me in the court order where it says 
that? A. Well, it just says maximum desegregation or 
something like that or positive or whatever the words are.

Q. Did you interpret that to mean that you must elimi­
nate— A. Black school wherever possible.

Q. All-black schools and all-white schools? A. No, sir. 
I didn’t interpret it that way but wherever possible.

Q. Wherever possible? A. Where you could do it, do it 
and we felt that this was one place that it could be done.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



416a

Mr. Gorman: Let’s take a short break.
Mr. Philips: All right. Let’s take five minutes.

(Recess)

Q. We were talking about, I guess, the Burroughs situa­
tion and the sole reason for requiring the change in what 
the School Board proposed there was to avoid the exist­
ence of an all-negro or all-black school? A. That’s right.

[80] Q. Was that the primary criteria that you used in 
your development of the whole plan? A. Well, that was 
what we considered the court order was all about, yes.

Q. As I understand it, the court order talked in terms of 
desegregating the school system, not eliminating all-negro 
or all-black or all-anything else. A. Well, there again I 
don’t want to get into interpreting legal matters, but all 
that preface that went on before the thing where he threw 
out all your boundary lines, where the Circuit Court, you 
had drawn boundary lines, the Judge himself, as I under­
stood it, for the elementary and the junior high schools 
for the metropolitan area, and the way I read it in the pre­
liminaries to it, they had thrown everything out and said 
start over or words to that effect, and then he said, I don’t 
know, what are those words, positively or affirmatively or 
something like that—

Mr. Crawford: What court order are you talking 
about ?

Mr. Philips: We are discussing the one he was 
working with.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969

A. The June 3rd.



417a

Mr. Crawford: Jane 3rd?
Mr. Philips: Yes.

A. The June 3rd court order said positively or aggres­
sively or [81] something.

Q. Well, that’s all right. I know what the order says. 
I was just interested in your interpretation of it and what 
you would—- A. Well, I was told not to hut you couldn’t 
help but do a little of it.

Q. Well, you have got to interpret it to know what to 
do, haven’t you? A. That’s right, and it just seemed to us, 
it seemed to us to say or it seemed to me to say, and every­
body else in this, that what you have done isn’t satisfactory, 
now do more, and that seemed to be the meat in the coconut 
so far as the court was concerned.

Q. Among the doing more did you interpret it to mean 
the necessity of eliminating any school that was all-black 
or any school that was all-vdiite?

Mr. Gorman: I am going to object to that ques­
tion. You are asking this witness, who is an educa­
tional expert, to give a legal opinion—

Mr. Philips: I am asking him to give the basis 
upon which he proceeded and he’s got to proceed on 
some assumption or on the basis of some criteria, and 
I don’t mean to be argumentative but this is what I 
want to know.

[82] A. Well, the basis on which we proceeded was to 
eliminate as many black schools as you could within rea­

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969

son.



418a

Q. As the primary criteria? A. Well, that that is what 
the court order was about.

Q. Is that what you took as the primary criteria? A. 
Yes, and by within reason, I mean with a sound educa­
tional program.

Q. What about the elimination of all all-white schools, 
was that also— A. That would be a question of philosophy 
which I expressed my opinion on, that I personally thought 
that I had not seen anything in the courts about eliminat­
ing all-white schools. There was some kind of opinion that 
the Fifth Circuit rendered sometime ago that said there 
wouldn’t be any all-black schools but we wound up, as we 
said here, with five and we couldn’t see any way within 
reason of eliminating those five. Now, I don’t know whether 
the court will throw it out and say eliminate those five or 
whether they will—I don’t know what they will do with it 
but we said we did the best we could.

Q. Now, you said just then you hadn’t seen anything in 
the courts about this, that or the other, I don’t remember 
the exact proposition. A. About white schools.

[83] Q. You are then drawing on your interpretation of 
court decrees in formulating your criteria as to what you 
did? A. Yes, you have to—■

Q. Your interpretation of court decrees, not only this 
one but other court decrees, is that correct? A. Yes, that’s 
correct. That’s correct and—

Q. What criteria did you use, if you will name them, in 
arriving at the attendance areas that you recommended 
to the court? A. The criterion of promoting as much inte­
gration as possible, together with a sound administratively 
feasible educational program.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



419a

Q. All right. Promoting as much integration as pos­
sible— A. And with no greater expenditure of funds than 
had been previously contemplated by the school system.

Q. All right. What are the specific criteria that you ad­
hered to beyond promoting as much integration as possible! 
A. Well, we—

Q. Specific criteria. Just to saj7 a sound educational pro­
gram is—■ A. Well, we used as a guideline that the school 
system was trying to work toward a one to five system, a 
one to five elementary setup. Then we ran into places, all 
right, could you pair without interrupting that one to five 
sequence— [84] that is, have maybe two grades in one 
school and three in the other, and so we decided that was 
still within the framework of sound educational policy, that 
you could so pair, and if that would produce greater de­
segregation, that could be done, and so also the question 
came up—

Q. Let me ask you this, and I will let you go ahead and 
enumerate the others, but let me ask you about that one. 
Would you ordinarily recommend such a pairing as you 
have described if you weren’t dealing with the desegrega­
tion process! A. No.

Q. All right. Go ahead to the next one. A. But we were 
dealing with desegregation.

Q. Go ahead with the next one. A. Then the question 
came up then about the Blount-Vigor thing, as to whether 
it wouldn’t be better to make one of them say just a ninth 
and tenth grade school all by itself and the other one 
an eleventh and twelfth grade school all by itself, and we 
realized the problems you run into with extracurricular 
activities and athletics and bands and what-have you, and

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



420a

they were so close together as the crow flies, about two- 
tenths of a mile between those two school grounds. It’s 
a long way around the way you have to drive, that we 
thought that for their extracurricular programs and things 
that involved all [85] of them together, but the school sys­
tem in its operation would probably basically put all ninth 
and tenth grades in one place and all eleventh and twelfth 
graders in the other so that it wouldn’t have to be a com­
plete changing of campuses between every class and every 
period.

Q. So you basically paired these schools? A. Basically 
but put them together administratively for anything they 
needed to be together administratively for, and the same 
thing was true in—-what was it—Williamson-Craighead. 
Williamson and Craighead was—yes, Williamson and Craig­
head.

Q. Would you ordinarily do this sort of thing in a school 
system except for the desegregation process? A. No, I 
wouldn’t think you would. Unless you had that in mind, 
you would not.

Q. What other criteria now did you adhere to? A. Well,
I think I have named them.

Q. Okay. Those that you have named are all the criteria 
that you adhered to? A. They are all I  can think of at 
the moment.

Q. As a basic principle do you believe a liberal transfer 
policy is a desirable thing in a school system? A. Before 
school starts.

Q. Before school starts? [86] A. Not after school starts.
I believe once he has made his course, he ought to stick 
to it for a year.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



421a

Q. In your development of your stndy and recommenda­
tions did yon have knowledge or gather knowledge concern­
ing the Board’s long-range plans in connection with the 
school system? A. A  good many of them, maybe not all 
of them.

Q. Where did yon acquire this information? A. Well, 
one was in this report to the, that the Board submitted 
about its plans for the use of the different, that the school 
system submitted to the Court about its plans for the 
use of buildings, and particularly in the rural area I talked 
with the people at the School Board about what they saw 
the developments were.

Q. Who specifically did you talk to? A. Mr. McPherson 
specifically.

Q. Did you have any other source or any other knowledge 
concerning the long-range plans? A. No.

Q. What do you consider, Dr. Hall, as a desegregated 
school system? What do you consider an integrated school 
system? When have you achieved an integrated school 
system ?

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969

Mr. Gorman: Now, I will object to that question. 
That is a legal question and this witness doesn’t 
have the cognizance or the [87] expertise to—

Mr. Philips: He was told to achieve a desegre­
gated school system and he acted toward doing that. 
I would like for him to tell me what he was attempt­
ing to do and when he thinks it will have been 
accomplished.

A. When you have gone just as far as you can to relieve 
desegregation within reason.



422a

Q. Would you give me an example of this? A. Now, T 
don’t know what the—you see, this thing has changed as 
we have gone along or maybe it has been clarified, I am 
not sure. When we first started oft', it dealt only with pupils, 
it didn’t deal with staff at all the first few years of these 
court orders, and then it got into staff. I remember the first 
court order that we had, that all we had to do was just 
to notify every pupil that he could go to whatever, that 
he could apply to go to any school that he wanted to. That 
was the first court order. Then as they have moved this 
thing along, they have gotten further and further or more 
stringent in their interpretations. Now—

Q. So you have a changeable standard, I gather? A. 
Yes, I think—I don’t know whether you would say the rules 
have been changed or the rules have been clarified but, for 
instance, at one time in our own school system we had a 
de- [88] segregated school system by the definition at that 
time but by the present definition it’s no longer desegre­
gated, so you get additional understandings. Now, so far 
as I am personally concerned, when you have gone just as 
far as you can possibly go within reason, then you have 
desegregated. Now, it could well be, though, that we left 
these five all-white schools and it could well be that the 
court would say that that is not going far enough. At one 
time you could ask yourself these questions, and if you 
could answer them affirmatively, you were all right,. One, 
if we hadn’t had a dual school system, would I have built 
this school in this particular spot, and if you said no, it 
wouldn’t have been built here, then you eliminated that 
school and then you had that problem resolved.

Q. You mean you closed that school? A. I f you closed, 
if you eliminated that school, and now, now the question

Deposition o f Dr. Joe Hall on July IS, 1969



423a

is coming up all over the country, as you know, and cer­
tainly we have it in our own community and I haven’t 
seen the answers to it. I f you have a community of say 
three miles wide and seven miles long and it’s solid black 
and there are twenty-five thousand pupils in it and you 
need to build some schools, should they be built in that 
community or should they be built out somewhere else in 
order to achieve desegre- [89] gation, and that’s a problem 
that is confronting the whole educational profession and 
the answers yet are not clear cut on that.

Q. What is your opinion? A. If you—excuse me, there’s 
one other question I said you could ask yourself. Have I 
made any distinction because of race, and if you answered 
that no, but the general interpretations, as I have gathered 
along at least for a period of time, I don’t know how long 
this will be, but in the process of eliminating the dual school 
system, you must not only, you must take race into con­
sideration. It’s a paradoxical point but you must count 
noses and take race into consideration rather than just 
ignoring race, and you must do that both for faculty and 
for students, and I assume that there would be some ulti­
mate time out here after you achieve your goal, then when 
you would completely ignore both and proceed along that 
point, but there is a period of time that we are going- 
through now where the courts are saying you must take 
race into consideration. Now, excuse me, but I wanted to 
bring that out. Now, what is your question!

Q. Well, I was trying to get around to get you to tell me, 
if you could, when you have a desegregated school system. 
What is a desegregated school system? [90] A. Well, that 
one I have been trying to find out.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



424a

Q. And you can’t tell me! A. No. That is one question 
we are asking you all to try to get the court to say here 
if—you see, this court has ruled, as I understand it, it 
seemed to me to he a sort of an in-between thing in some 
decisions that there would be no all-black schools in the 
south or in the Fifth Circuit, and I have racked my brains 
how you could do that, and they haven’t spelled out, they 
haven’t said you have to bus to do it. They just said there 
would be none. Now, in this proposal here there is some 
bussing introduced. It’s a minimal amount and we did 
not go so far as to go what we call cross-bussing. We were 
—well, we just haven’t reached the point, or at least I 
haven’t reached that point in my own philosophy to think 
that is good educationally, to haul people out of one commu­
nity and out of another. Now, we did one-way bussing but 
not cross-bussing in this proposal and we did it in those 
places where the school system was proposing to build, to 
put new construction—that is, in this plan, in this write-up 
that I am talking about they were planning to replace 
the Emerson School, said they had been wanting to rebuild 
the Emerson School a long time, and we simply said if 
you are going to have desegregation, the place to build 
it is not there but [91] build it over here so you would 
have the same capital outlay cost to build it over here, 
and the same thing with Howard, and the same thing 
with Toulminville.

Q. You refer to the same capital outlay cost. Do you 
take into account there the fact that in one instance over 
$200,000.00 and the other almost $200,000.00 in land acqui­
sition which will then be lost at those existing sites! A. 
Well, I wouldn’t say those would be lost because, if they

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



425a

cost $200,000.00, then they have that value, either to some 
other public agency or to some private group if they 
wanted to sell, and the chances are you could buy addi­
tional sites, at least this has been my experience, I haven’t 
checked it here in Mobile, for whatever you could realize, 
you could buy more land out than you could in because 
the land in is usually higher than the land out, and I am 
all in favor of keeping land in in the hands of some public 
agency because we are running into the shortage of parks 
and everything else in facilities, but—

Q. Did you make any studies of land values in Mobile? 
A. No, sir.

Q. Did you make any inquiry into land values? A. No, 
but I am just going on what is generally the situation.

Q. All right. We have gotten kind of far afield from 
the orig- [92] inal question that I have asked you. Let 
me try to— A. Excuse me. Let me get back here. You 
originally asked me what did this court order say and 
I understand that—

Q. That’s all right. I am confident that you can read 
the court order to me. A. And I was going to tell you 
what I thought it meant. We keep coming around to that.

Q. You can’t now tell me what you thought it meant 
without reading the court order? A. Well—-

Q. Well, can you or can’t you? Can you tell me now 
without reading the court order? A. Yes.

Q. What? A. I have already told you.
Q. Okay. Then there is no point in reading the court 

order. A. All right. (Pause) This is all the preliminaries, 
isn’t it? Where does it get down to the order itself?

Mr. Crawford: The meat is right over here.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



426a

A. I don’t find what I am hunting anywhere. Anyhow, 
they threw out—what I was simply saying, that I inter­
preted it to mean—yeah, there are the words that I am 
looking for right there. I wonder why I couldn’t see it. 
“ The District Court shall [93] forthwith request the Office 
of Health, Education and Welfare to collaborate with the 
Board of School Commissioners in the preparation of a 
plan to fully and affirmatively desegregate all public schools 
in Mobile County, urban and rural.” Now, that—

Q. That is what I asked you. A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell me when you fully and affirmatively 

desegregate a school system? A. Well, that is what we 
thought this plan did and I am also saying that the Court 
may say it doesn’t, but when we had gone as far as you 
could within reason in the desegregation of the schools, 
and by in reason—■

Q. And what do you mean by that, “ going as far as 
you can in the desegregation of the schools” ? Does that 
mean simply getting as many negro children with as many 
white children, or what does it mean? A. That is—yes, 
providing student bodies that are racially mixed.

Q. On a ratio or what? A. I guess in your preference, 
if you had your preference, yes, it would be the ratio of 
the whole thing but you can’t do that within reason, at 
least I don’t think you can.

[94] Q. But that would be the ultimate that you would 
shoot for? A. Yes, I guess you would say that that’s, 
it seems to be what the court is saying, at least in my 
interpretation of what they are saying, and you are asking 
me what I feel about that.

Q. Do you feel then under the court order what you 
are required to try to accomplish then is a racial balance

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



427a

in the school system based on a ratio of the total student 
population1? A. That would be the ultimate, yes.

Q. Then you think that was what you were supposed 
to work towards? A. We were supposed—I thought we 
were supposed to work just as far as we could to creating 
a desegregated situation, yes.

Q. And by a desegregated situation you mean a racial 
balance? A. A racial mix, yes.

Q. A racial balance, a ratio? A. Well, I guess if you 
could take the ultimate, you would say a balance but we 
certainly didn’t come up with any balance.

Q. Well, what I am talking about is what you were 
working towards. A. Well, we were working towards a 
racial mix.

Q. To desegregate the school system as far as you could? 
A. Yes.

Q. And that you interpreted to mean ultimately, in the 
ultimate, a racial balance? A. No, we didn’t interpret it 
to mean—

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969

[95] Mr. Gorman: Wait a minute. You have 
asked that question at least forty times during the-— 

Mr. Crawford: A racial mix and not balance. You 
are leading him by trying to get him to say balance.

Q. When you have got a racial mix, when can you tell 
me that the racial mixture is a desegregated school sys­
tem? What racial mixture is a desegregated school 
system? A. I have no guide to just—if you have a con­
siderable number of both races in a school, then you have 
a racial mix but I wouldn’t set a definite percentage.



428a

Q. So then you don’t think there is any definite per­
centage? There is nothing the school system can look to 
and say we have done all we can do, as you phrase it? 
A. That’s right.

Q. Now, what about the resegregation? Suppose you 
do all you can do and then human nature takes its course 
and people resegregate—

Mr. Gorman: Now, I will object to that.
Mr. Crawford: We are going to object to that 

because that calls for some facts that are not in 
issue here. That calls for what would happen in 
the next twenty years or ten years, and this man 
was ordered to follow the decree as of now, and I 
think that is asking for a supposition that he is 
not compe- [96] tent to answer.

Mr. Philips: He says that he has experienced the 
phenomenon of resegregation and I would like his 
opinion on it.

Mr. Crawford: Only as it relates to a general 
area but not specifically to Mobile, and that is my 
objection.

Q. What do you do when you have resegregation? Do 
you still have a desegregated school system or do you 
start over again? A. Can I talk now? I mean I was 
waiting until—

Q. Yes. I am not trying to bewilder you with it but—■ 
A. Yeah. Well, basically what you are saying is can you 
ever say that you have arrived and the problem is solved, 
and I used to think you could say that about a lot of 
school problems but I believe this is probably one of

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



429a

those problems where it is going to be a persistent prob­
lem just as the education of children is persistent, and 
probably there would have to be further adjustments made 
at some time in the future.

Q. Okay. Now, if you will, you have the court order 
in front of you— A. Now, there was a big argument over 
in Columbia, over in South Carolina, they were telling me 
about as to whether de facto, about de facto and de jure. 
If it was de jure, then that was caused by a school that 
was built for blacks and it had to be eliminated. If it 
was de facto where it had developed, [97] but I don’t 
know what the decision was or whether there has been 
any decision or whether there is a difference in it or not.

Q. Is there any significance to you in this? A. Well, 
it was in a way. We are talking social philosophy now 
a little bit—

Q. Well, let’s talk education. A. Well, you have to, in 
order to talk education you have to take some of the 
other problems of society into mind also and relate edu­
cation to the society’s problems. Now, actually I guess 
what people say now is that the black man has complete 
freedom of choice as to where he will live, but that time 
hasn’t quite arrived yet either in spite of—I mean I just 
know of a number of cases in my own community, and I 
am sure you can find them in other communities, so some­
times society itself is responsible for the resegregation as 
such.

Q. Well, let me ask you this question: You have the 
court order there. If you will, show me in this court 
order where it calls upon you to make recommendations 
with reference to desegregation of faculty? A. That is 
in that basic statement that I just read you.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



430a

Q. Read it to me again, if you will. A. Positively and— 
what were those words? You found it. I [98] couldn’t 
find it before. “ Of a plan to fully and affirmatively de­
segregate all public schools in Mobile County, urban and 
rural” .

Q. And you interpreted that to mean the involvement 
of faculty also? A. All other court orders deal with 
faculty and students. Every one of them I have seen. 
As a matter of fact, prior court orders in this case have 
dealt with faculty. They weren’t mentioned here but I just 
assumed that it did but whether—

Q. Were you aware of whether or not faculty had been 
an issue before the court when this court order was issued? 
A. No, sir. All I read was that statement that says to 
prepare a desegregation plan, and a desegregation plan, 
all of them that I have worked on, both in court and out 
of court, and I have worked on a number, is not con­
sidered complete unless it involves staff.

Q. Did someone tell you to include staff and faculty? 
A. Well, I guess—I raised the question with Mr. Jordan 
and he said yes, he said we should.

Q. Was it called to your attention that this court order 
didn’t mention faculty specifically? A. Yes.

Q. Was it called to your attention that faculty was not 
an issue [99] before the court when it issued this order? 
A. Yes.

Q. Who called that to your attention? A. Mr. McPher­
son, I think it was.

Q. Did somebody else call to your attention any counter­
information indicating that that was incorrect? A. No, 
nothing other than just this statement we read here, pre­

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



431a

pare a complete plan, and I have seen no plan yet that 
has been acceptable in court or out that didn’t include 
faculty. However, if it’s a moot issue, that would be up 
to the court, but we just considered that a part of what 
we were asked to do.

Q. Okay. Did you go to court and ask for clarification 
on it? A. No, sir.

Q. Who did you ask for clarification on it, anybody? 
A. Just ourselves. I would like to go to the court but 
I wasn’t sure about protocol. I mentioned this to the—I 
would like to ask the court several questions but I didn’t 
want to, I didn’t know whether you were allowed. I would 
like to have asked the Circuit Judge here just what he 
meant but it would be questions you are asking me and 
I think would be better asked of him, and if he would say, 
then we would all know which way to go.

[100] Q. That is interesting. In dealing with the faculty 
aspect of it, did you have occasion to review the existing 
personnel policies of the School Board? A. Yes. Well, 
not in detail. I reviewed some of them.

Q. What did you review? A. The basic general plan. 
I guess I did this more by talk than I actually looked 
at any written documents. I don’t remember looking at 
any written documents. I don’t remember looking at any 
written documents on it, just I talked with them about 
what the plans were.

Q. m o  did you talk to? A. Mr. McPherson.
Q. The only information you have then on the Board’s 

personnel policies is from your discussion with Mr. Mc­
Pherson? A. That’s correct.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



432a

Q. Did you ask him if the Board had a definite per­
sonnel policy overall? A. I don’t recall whether I did or 
not.

Q. Did you think that relative to inquire whether they 
might have some existing policy before recommending a 
new policy? A. Not particularly. I judged—I did read 
in the court orders, the court order of March 12th some 
year, I  believe it was, that had some materials in it about 
faculty. I can verify that if it’s important.

[101] Q. If it’s in the court order, then it’s before the 
court.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969

Mr. Gorman: I think all of this is set out in 
the plan as well.

A. Yes, I believe it’s in the book there, what the court 
order of March 12th—March 12th, yes, that’s right.

Q. All right. This is a court order. Let me ask you— 
A. But I didn’t know whether this court order still ap­
plied because in the July 29th court order the Judge just 
made a passing remark about faculty and activities and 
buildings, I believe. He said they were covered in a pre­
vious court order, and I didn’t have the Judge Thomas’s 
order but in discussing it I gathered that his order was 
based upon the March 12th—

Mr. Gorman: Could I help him?

A. The March 12th Circuit Court.
Q. You needn’t read the order. A. Oh, yes, I am sure 

you know it by heart.



433a

Q. Yes, I ’ve got a copy of it. A. Yes, so I assumed 
that one still prevailed.

Q. Yon didn’t inquire about any additional policies or 
any written policies then overall dealing with faculty and 
staff that the School Board might have! A. No.

Mr. Philips: Let’s take a short recess.

(Recess.)

[102] Q. Let’s put this on the record. If you will, re­
state what you have just said.

Mr. Crawford: Now, I am going to object to this 
unless a specific question is asked. He was saying 
that this was off the record and we were supposed 
to be in recess.

Q. All right. That section of the report dealing with fac­
ulty, does that reflect your wording of that report, that 
portion of the report? A. No, sir. There are several topics 
there that I would have changed the “ shall” to a “ should” 
—in other words, as a suggestion, rather than a seeming 
order.

Q. You would then change, where what you have sub­
mitted, the report, says “ shall”, you would change it to 
“ should” ? A. Yes.

Mr. Crawford: Where is that found?

A. Right there.
Q. Whose wording is that, Dr. Hall? A. Mr. Jordan, 

I guess.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



434a

Q. You don’t know for sure? A. 106. No, sir. All I 
know is I got it from Mm and the only—well, it’s sort of an 
insignificant point but—

Q. Who wrote this section on faculty? A. The princi­
pals, teachers, teacher aids and other staff who [103] 
work directly with children of a school shall be assigned, 
and I would have just said “ should be assigned” , that’s all.

Q. Who wrote the section on faculty? A. Mr. Jordan.
Q. Mr. Jordan? Okay. A. I had written a previous sec­

tion that was rougher than this and he—well, it had the 
shall and the should, but the final ruling was that this one 
would replace that.

Q. What portions of this plan did you actually, do you 
take credit for? A. As the sole author?

Q. Yes. A. Or as the principal officer?
Q. Yes. A. I would take credit for Chapter Two—
Q. What chapter is that? A. In its entirety.
Q. What chapter is that? A. That is the status of things 

as they now are. I would take credit for reviewing Chap­
ters One, Three and Four, which are the background for 
Mobile, I mean I did editorial work on that and made sev­
eral changes, and Chapter Three I made some changes, 
that’s the finance chapter, and Chapter Four, I take [104] 
about half credit for Chapter Four.

Q. Which chapter is Chapter Four? A. That’s the 
course of study.

Q. Which is the chapter with the recommendations for 
the attendance areas and the lines and— A. That’s Chap­
ter Five. Chapter Five, I would take—well, that was a 
cooperative project. I would have to take full respon­
sibility as the director of the study for Chapter Five and

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



435a

also this chapter here. I just said I would have changed 
a few words.

Q. You take full responsibility for it but whose work 
does it represent? A. Well, it represents the combined 
work of these, this Chapter Four, of these four people, 
I mean Chapter Five of the plan, the combined work of the 
four people I mentioned before, Stolee and—

Q. Who made the primary decisions in the location and 
composition of the attendance? A. Well, the final deci­
sions, the head man was Mr. Jordan.

Q. Who made the working decisions? I am sure he had 
to approve it, he had to approve anything you did. A. The 
working decisions on what?

Q. On the location of attendance area lines, the com­
position of—• [105] A. That was a cooperative thing. I
don’t know if you can understand that fully but here are 
four people working together and you try out something 
here and try it a different way, and to say which one did 
the final thing, I know of no way to say that. That was 
a cooperative thing, and Chapter, this section on personnel, 
the prime officer was Mr. Jordan but all of us—■

Q. The same four? A. Pitched in—no, I ’m sorry, just 
the two, plus Mr. Anrig.

Q. Okay. Now, did Mr. Anrig have to approve every­
thing? A. No, except in broad terms. I guess he would be 
stuck with everything that is in it but it’s just like Pres­
ident Nixon is stuck with everything that everybody does 
but—

Q. But these things were submitted to him for review, 
were they not? A. Yes, and he was, at the same time he 
was reviewing about twenty other plans so he was dealing 
in broad general things and not—

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



436a

Q. Twenty other plans across the country? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what other plans? A. Well, Louisiana 

and Mississippi—Louisiana, I guess. They were in New 
Orleans so I guess they were working in Louisiana [106] 
or in New Orleans particularly.

Q. Was there an effort made to make these plans coin­
cide? A. No, no effort made to make them jive. However, 
I  think there are certain standard wordings that crop up 
in a number of reports.

Q. A  canned form or a standard phraseology? A. I 
imagine that, I guess I ’ve done myself, I said I had done 
about ten counties. Now, I usually alter a few words but 
the basic idea, it comes out in each one of them.

Q. This basic form that was in usage, was this your form 
or was this somebody else’s form? A. I don’t even know 
that there is a form. I said the probabilities are. For in­
stance, Mr. Jordan had just finished doing twenty some odd 
schools or thirty or some number in Columbia, in which the 
general problems—of course, you will have specific com­
munities that will have variations, but the general things 
would run consistent in all of them.

Q. These in South Carolina that he had been dealing 
with, as well as the ones in Mississippi and Louisiana that 
Mr. Anrig was working on at that time—  A. Yes, and I 
guess others, too. I know Mr. Jordan has got, right now 
he has got several school systems in Alabama and several 
in Mississippi that they are working on, and if there [107] 
is not some similarity between them, it would be amazing 
to me, I mean once you have worked through a program.

Q. Which ones in Alabama are you working on now, do 
you know? A. No. It was in the paper, Jefferson County, 
not Birmingham but—

.  Deposition o f Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



437a

Mr. Gorman: The City of Bessemer.

A. Well, it’s a county.

Mr. Gorman: It’s in Jefferson County.

A. Jefferson County which does not include the City of 
Birmingham, and then there are a couple of others similar 
in that same general area. It was in the paper here. I saw 
it in the paper. I forget what they are.

Q. Dr. Hall, how long were you in Mobile? A. I was 
here for twenty-eight days.

Q. You came here when?

Mr. Crawford: This is repetitious. He has al­
ready said June 10th.

A. Yes, June 10th.
Q. And when did you leave? A. July 3rd, or about 

July the 4th. I was here all day the 3rd but then I took 
some things with me to do after I left and so I worked on 
up through the 7th.

Q. Were you here constantly throughout that time or 
were you in [108] other places? A. No, I was—well, 
I ran out to, for one thing. I made a speech in Jacksonville, 
I think. Yeah, I had to go to Jacksonville. This was a com­
mitment I had made but I took my work along and worked 
on the plane.

Q. When was this, the 23rd or the 16th? A. The 16th.
Q. What about on the 23rd? A. The 23rd? The 23rd 

I went over to Edgewater Beach but I was only gone about 
three hours, four hours.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



438a

Q. Was there any other time that yon left Mobile or were 
yon in Mobile constantly other than those two occasions 
that yon have mentioned? A. No, I  think I was here con­
stantly, and the fact that I was away those times didn’t 
mean anything because I was working on the stuff. All 
I had to do was stop long enough to make a speech.

Mr. Philips: Let’s take that five minute break 
that I started a half an hour ago.

Mr. Crawford: Now, don’t say anything while 
we’re on the break, Dr. Hall, or he’s going to call yon 
back on the record.

(Recess)

Q. Dr. Hall, do yon consider as an important criteria 
in the [109] assignment of students within reasonable 
bounds filling schools to capacity but not over-filling the 
schools in order to make sure that all students are housed? 
A. Yes, that sounds—

Q. It’s almost elementary, isn’t it? A. Yes. Although 
a common practice is in most of your larger school systems 
they have portable classrooms that are just as good, that 
they can move around.

Q. That’s what I had in mind when I said within reason­
able bounds, that you are frequently over-filled slightly. 
A. Right.

Q. You think any desegregation plan then to be prac­
tically workable in your figures that you are dealing with 
in the assignment of students to schools have got to be 
accurate within bounds, should they not? A. They should 
be, yes, reasonably so.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



439a

Q. Were your figures accurate that you were working 
with? A. Reasonably so. There may, I believe I indicated 
in the report that there was some degree of error in trans­
ferring them but within reason I think they were.

Mr. Philips: I have no further questions.

A. Do you have something particular in mind? Do you find 
some error we made?

[110] Mr. Philips: Well, I am not through evalu­
ating it. I  probably will.

A. Well, if you do find one, I think you ought to tell us and 
then we would probably, we would try to correct it.

Mr. Philips: I probably will find some. I was just 
interested in a general concept.

A. If you or the members of the school system found some 
error, I think you would have an obligation to tell us.

Mr. Philips: I  am sure we would if we did.

On Cross Examination by Mr. Gorman:

Q. Let me just go over a couple of things here. Now, 
Doctor, when you were working on this desegregation plan, 
you had, you did certain work yourself, is that correct? 
A. Yes.

Q. And you had several staff people doing work along 
similar lines while you were working, is that correct? A. 
Right.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



440a

Q. And the staff people included personnel from the Uni­
versity of Alabama? A. The University of Alabama spe­
cifically requested that they not be involved in any of the 
vital parts of the desegregation study so we did not ask 
them to participate in any way [111] in any of that.

Q. But you did get some— A. But they did do help. In 
other words, if we would draw a map and said we need 
another copy of it, then they would make that for us but 
they had nothing to do with the map-making itself.

Q. Dr. Woodward did some help with respect to— A. 
He did practically all of the—yes, I would say he did prac­
tically all the chapter on finance.

Q. And you also had some assistance from the University 
Center at Auburn, one or two of the people there ? A. One 
man came down and worked the full time, yes. Well, not the 
full time. He was here a week or two. I don’t know exactly 
how long he was here.

Q, And you also had assistance from the Atlanta office 
of the Office of Education? A. Yes.

Q. That is Mr. Jordan’s office? A. Yes.
Q. And the University of South Alabama?

Mr. Philips: I think all of this—he has already 
gone over all of this, Walter. This is totally repe­
titious.

Q. Now, after contact had been made with the School 
Board, the [112] School Board or the school officials sub­
mitted plans, desegregation plans to you and your staff, 
is that correct? A. That’s correct.

Mr. Philips: You say the School Board submitted 
them to you?

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



441a

A. No, the school officials he said, I thought, the representa­
tives of the school system, the staff. They were staff pro­
posals. I don’t know whether the Board had seen them or 
not.

Q. Now, were those proposals both with respect to the 
rural and the metropolitan schools? A. Yes, at different 
times.

Q. And what did you do with those proposals! A. Let’s 
see. We had set up a schedule in our conferences that the 
rural, that we would have a conference for the rural pres­
entation on Wednesday, I don’t know what day—let me 
see now. Let me get my dates straight. Anyhow, the pres­
entation on the rural was made and then the—maybe, I 
don’t know the day of the week. Maybe it was Friday. 
And then we set up a conference for the presentation of 
the metropolitan on the following Wednesday, and then we 
would have a joint conference on Friday of that week in 
which we would work out all of the details, but the repre­
sentatives of the school system felt that they shouldn’t par­
ticipate in that, that we ought to develop our own plans 
separately, so we did not work with [113] them on that.

Q. I  see. Then you planned to take the proposals that 
had been made by the school officials and suggest, study 
them and suggest any modifications or adjustments that 
you thought were appropriate? A. Well, our basic plan 
had been that with our consultant, I mean my basic plan 
had been, I won’t say our, that with our consultants that 
we would take Friday and work through everything that 
we had up until that time and make proposals trying to 
answer the three questions that I indicated previously and

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



442a

that we would just all sit around and do that together. 
Now—

Q. When you say “we” , you mean— A. I mean the 
school staff and our staff would work at that, hut they indi­
cated they did not wish to participate in that kind of a con­
ference, so then we had to develop conferences or work out 
our own plans and then bring them back subsequently, and 
so we had set that up for Friday so then we had to post­
pone it until the following Tuesday.

Q. All right. In your contact with the school officials 
have they suggested any specific modifications or adjust­
ments to the proposal that you have submitted to them! 
A. No, sir. There have been no suggestions for modifica­
tion of [114] anything that we have—

Mr. Philips: Those will be submitted to the court, 
Walter, as you well know.

Q. Now, with respect to transporting students as part 
of a desegregation program, do you feel as an educator 
or do you believe as an educator that it is educationally 
sound to use transportation to achieve a desegregated learn­
ing situation? A. Could I make a little lengthy statement 
on that?

Q. Sure. A. We have talked a good bit in education 
about what we call compensatory education for those who 
are in need of special help and we have set up, many of 
us have set up a number of plans. Some of them have been 
quite costly to do this job of compensatory education. Now, 
my opinion is, and this is only an opinion, that the most 
satisfactory compensatory program for our ghetto blacks

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



443a

would be to be placed in a school with white children, and 
that money expended to do that would be more rewarding 
than hiring extra teachers or giving extra materials or 
what-have-you, and so I would, I guess I would answer your 
question that, yes, I think it would be a valuable educational 
experience, particularly for the young negro pupils at this 
time, to be placed in schools with white pupils.

Q. All right. Even if this would mean transporting them? 
[115] A. Yes, even if this meant transporting them.

Q. Now, with respect to the attendance lines that were 
proposed in the plan which was developed by you and your 
staff, Mr. Philips referred to artificial arrangements of 
attendance zones and mentioned gerrymandering. A. We 
call it, we use the term “non-contiguous” .

Q. And Mr. Philips I think mentioned gerrymandering 
zones and gerrymandering has lost its original definition 
and has a lot of other connotations, and I would just like 
to go into that a little bit. Now, when you said that you re­
drew the lines to encourage desegregation or to permit fur­
ther desegregation, was this done merely as an alteration 
or an adjustment of the lines keeping still within sound 
educational principles when the alterations were made, or 
did you disregard educational principles when you formu­
lated the attendance zone lines to further desegregate? A. 
What we did we thought would give the best educational 
program for the young people who were involved. In most 
cases it was adjustment of lines but there were a few what 
we call non-contiguous areas that were a group of pupils 
who would go out to different schools to provide a desegre­
gated situation in those schools.

Deposition o f Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



444a

Q. Now, with respect to your testimony concerning pos­
sible future [116] adjustments that would be necessary or 
might be necessary in the attendance zone lines, you indi­
cated that there are changes I guess daily in the location of 
students and from year to year. Now, what data did you 
have when you were locating students? Was that data 
based on last year’s enrollments and the location of stu­
dents the last school year? A. We had that data plus a 
pupil locater maps, but we actually, in the plan which had 
been presented to us by the school staff for the desegrega­
tion of the schools in the metropolitan area, they had the 
grade levels for each school and the attendance and the 
anticipated attendance figures. They indicated there was 
some small error in translating that, but we used that 
basically and then we used about two or three techniques 
in trying to determine the actual membership. For ex­
ample, if they had a school with grades one through six 
in it and it had six hundred pupils and we were proposing 
to just take the sixth grade out, we used the rough figure 
of five hundred pupils that would be in that school. Now, 
that won’t always hold but it’s a close enough figure where 
you won’t be off much in your calculations, and then we 
tried to balance our figures against the figures that we had 
from the school system.

Q. And these are the types of adjustments that might 
be necessary [117] after the start of school or once it’s 
known definitely how many students there are in each grade 
where the grade structure has been changed, is that cor­
rect? A. That’s right.

Q. Now, with respect to— A. And we would also—in 
some instances we necessarily in the time we had, we had

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



445a

to short-circuit. For example, if you had grades ten, eleven 
and twelve and the pupil locater maps that they had were 
for, that they had with which they had provided us, were, 
each map had a separate grade on it, and so we would count 
one grade off the map and then multiply it by three or what­
ever number of grades. Rather than count every map, try 
to count all the pupils that are on every map, and that 
will, of course, lead to some error but not a significant 
error.

Q. Now, with respect to the change that was made by 
you and your staff in the proposals that were submitted 
by the School Board in the rural schools and particularly 
the change in the Burroughs School, now you testified, I 
believe, wdien asked by Mr. Philips, that the reason for this 
change was in order to eliminate an all-negro school. Was 
the change that was, that you proposed also an education­
ally sound one? A. Yes, it was educationally sound. As 
a matter of fact, it was [118] more in line with what they, 
with the general plan, a pattern for the school system, 
which is a five-three-four basic structure, and this proposed 
a three grade school at Burroughs which would have fitted 
right in with their long-range plan.

Q. Now, with respect to the faculty provisions that are 
in the plan, you mentioned that these were included; how­
ever, the wording you felt should be “ should” rather than 
“ shall” . A. For our report, yes.

Q. Now, is the reason for that, you mentioned—

Mr. Philips: I think you are going to lead him a 
little too much there, Walter.

Mr. Gorman: This is cross-examination.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



446a

Mr. Philips: I  realize that but this is not an ad­
verse witness.

Mr. Gorman: It is cross-examination.
Mr. Philips: I realize that. Let him state his rea­

son without suggesting the reason.

Q. Let me finish my question. In answering Mr. Philips’ 
question you said that you did not want to make it an order, 
that’s why you would rather use “ should”  than “ shall” . 
Do you feel or do you believe as an educator that the type 
of faculty assignments recommended by your report or 
proposal are educationally sound and should be imple­
mented? A. Yes, and this is a very small thing. I shouldn’t 
have brought [119] it up but to—I think what I meant, we 
were making a report to somebody and my preference for 
a way of wording it would be “ it is suggested that the 
Board adopt the following policy” and then read the words, 
or if you are just going to write the policy, then start it 
“ the Board should adopt the policy” which would say thus 
and so.

Q. So it wouldn’t appear to be a direct order from you 
and your staff? A. That’s right. We are not issuing or­
ders. We are just giving a report. That was kind of a 
minor thing.

Q. With respect to the proposal as a whole, have you 
and your staff proposed any attendance zone lines or grade 
structures or assignments that you believe are not educa­
tionally sound? A. Let me say no and then amplify that. 
If I  were organizing a school system, we have two schools 
set up that I would try to work out some other plan for, 
and that was a school called Hillsdale and a school—it’s an

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



447a

all eighth grade school and we have another one up in the 
north—

Q. Clark? A. Clark? Well, anyhow, there were two just 
plain eight grade schools and I would try as time went on 
to work away from just a one-grade school. I think you 
can carry on an effective educational program in the light 
of other values that are in [120] the report that it would 
be sound educationally, but in the long-run I think I would 
work to get out of that one-grade school.

Q. But these are sound under the present circumstances? 
A. Yes.

Q. Now, you have mentioned some of the criteria that 
were used in formulating attendance zone lines and you 
mentioned capacity of schools and location of students. Did 
you also consider hazards such as highways and rivers and 
streams? A. To the best of our ability, yes. We recognized 
that while we had before us constantly while we were work­
ing a map which showed where the flow of traffic and the 
main arteries and where the problems of getting from one 
place to another existed, and so we did take that into con­
sideration, yes.

Mr. Gorman: I have nothing further at this time.

On Cross Examination by Mr. Crawford:

Q. I have very few questions which could be answered 
yes or no. Dr. Hall, in your proposed plan did you take into 
consideration the School Board’s prior plans, present plan, 
information and data received from the School Board as 
well as from other sources in developing the present pro­
posal? A. Yes.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



448a

[121] Q. Now, why is it so difficult to leave five black 
schools all black? A. Well, that would have gotten us into 
the problem of cross-bussing which I said we did not pro­
pose, but those facilities had to be used, and in order to 
make room for white pupils at these facilities, you would 
have had first to haul the blacks, transport the blacks out 
somewhere and then transport whites back to these schools, 
and at this point in our educational philosophy we have not 
been willing to go to the cross-bussing idea.

Q. Well now, are you aware of the fact that within the 
last five years the School Board transported black students 
fifty-two miles passing white schools in order to reach a 
black school fifty-two miles away? A. Yes, sir, I was aware 
of that.

Q. Would you consider that a good policy of the School 
Board and good educational bussing? A. Well, let me make 
this comment on that, if I may. At the time that program 
was started, it was required by law and had the support 
both of law and of the communities—

Q. Which communities? A. Well, the black and the white 
communities.

Q. And where did you get the information that it had 
the support [122] of the black community? A. Well, that 
is—I don’t know that it had the support. It didn’t have the 
objections. I am talking about—now I am talking about 
prior to ’54 when the whole thing started.

Q. No, I am speaking of within the last five years. A. 
Well, within the last five years I assume that it did not 
have the support of the black community and so I am not, 
I didn’t want to get involved in that. I was trying to trace

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



449a

your history. Now, at the present time the bussing of 
pupils in the opposite direction does not have the support 
of law, even in the Civil Eights Act, and in, I don’t know 
about this particular community but in many communities 
where I have worked it doesn’t have the support of the 
citizens in the community. I mean either the—

Q. Which citizens are you speaking about? A. I mean 
either the white or the black. I am talking about this cross­
bussing, to bus out and bus back. Now, as I said, I ’m not, 
I don’t know about Mobile whether it would have the sup­
port of the blacks or whether it would have the support of 
the blacks or not, and it doesn’t have the, the cross-bussing 
doesn’t have the financial support or the legal support or 
the community support unless something in this case de­
cides that it does have the legal support. That was one 
[123] of the points I said in my earlier testimony that had 
not been fully clarified about all this business.

Q. Well then, are you aware of the fact that the court in 
the June 3rd order ordered you to desegregate all of the 
facilities and then you omitted five schools ? A. I am aware 
of what that court order said, yes.

Q. And you deliberately failed to desegregate five pre­
dominantly or all-black schools? A. We could see no way 
to do it within what we used, the rule of reason.

Q. So then on all other schools that you have desegre­
gated with a great majority—that is, in terms of racial— 
you did it with all educational, sound educational reason­
ing then, is that correct? A. That was the position that we 
took, yes.

Q. All right. Now, are you taking the position that you 
and your staff had sufficient time to develop a desegrega­

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



450a

tion plan—that is, the basic concept of such, that you have 
had sufficient time to do that! A. Yes, we had sufficient 
time to develop the concepts. We said it would take more 
time to work it out.

Q. Now, in doing that, this proposal, would it have been 
necessary for you to have been in Mobile twenty years to 
do that? [124] A. No, sir.

Q. Five years? A. No.
Q. So you didn’t have to be an old Mobilian and working 

in the School Board office in order to do the job that you 
and your staff did, is that right? A. That’s right.

Q. Now, did you diligently attempt to follow the Fifth 
Circuit Court’s order of June 3rd in developing the plan? 
A. Yes, we diligently followed it to the extreme limits of 
reason.

Q. Now, in Chapter Five you made some suggestions for 
plan implementations. Did you find in the past that any 
of the suggestions for plan implementation had been used 
by the School Board as a matter of policy for the past five 
years or six or seven years? A. I am not clear on what 
you are talking about.

Q. Well, when you discussed this with Mr. McPherson or 
any member of the administrative staff of the School Board, 
did you learn that as a result of each decree for the past 
five years or six years that they attempted to fully inform 
the citizens and the community about the legal requirements 
of school desegregation and their plans to comply with the 
legal [125] requirements?

Mr. Philips: I hardly think he is in a position to 
interpret this.

Deposition of Dr. Joe 'Hall on July 15, 1969



451a

Mr. Crawford: Well, I am asking did he discuss 
it with McPherson.

Mr. Philips: That is not the question yon asked.

A. I gained the impression—now, see if this comes any­
where near answering your question. I gained the impres­
sion that the school officials, Mr. McPherson and the others 
with whom I have talked, were not opposed to desegrega­
tion, that they, but that they felt that what they were pro­
posing met the requirement of making no distinction in 
race.

Q. Well, did it? A. Well, according to our interpreta­
tion of what the court was saying it did not but they inter­
preted that it did so I guess that is the point that is up for 
argument.

Q. I call your attention to page twenty-one of the report 
and the following pages there where you have listed 
amongst other things the ratio of white students and black 
students in certain schools which were predominantly either 
black or white schools. Would you interpret those statistics 
as saying that they made no good faith effort in trying to 
desegregate the Mobile County school system? A. No, sir. 
It would depend on this business of this definition [126] 
that he was trying to get me to give. One definition, and 
I don’t want to put words in the School System’s mouth, all 
I  can tell you is my impression of the definition they felt 
was being used, was that boundaries for a school would be 
drawn and no distinction would be made in the pupils in 
attendance at that school because of race, and if it hap­
pened that all of them turned out to be white or all of them 
turned out to be black, that was just a happenstance and 
not deliberately planned to avoid desegregation.

Deposition of Dr, Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



452a

Q. But that was a fact, though, wasn’t it? A. Now, I 
gather that impression and I certainty don’t want, I may 
be way out of line in trying to get that impression. Now, 
the thing that we had, though, the impression of the defini­
tion was, as we interpreted what the court said, it had to 
be more aggressive than that and a more positive thing 
and just drawing lines was not enough but that the schools 
actually had to be integrated or desegregated, and I guess 
that is the essential difference in the interpretation. I know 
I was asked if the school system, if the people in the school 
system couldn’t draw as good a plan as we could or a better 
plan, and I said they certainty ought to be able to but it all 
depends on what the definition is, and the definition of de­
segregation, where you make no distinction because of race, 
doesn’t seem in this [127] case to be sufficient for the court, 
that it must be, that race must be a factor and that desegre­
gation must result. Now, I guess that is the basic difference 
in the whole argument.

Q. Well now, your position is now that it is very clear 
to you and you have interpreted that the orders of the June 
3rd order of the Fifth Circuit that says that they must 
desegregate all facilities, that the plan that you have pro­
posed so follows that order, is that correct? A. It follows 
our interpretation of that order and does everything that 
could be done within what we call legitimate responsible 
reasoning. It still left those five all-black schools and we 
could not figure out a way to do that without getting into 
the problem of cross-bussing and we didn’t have a legal de­
cision yet on busses.

Q. Well, didn’t you say previously that in order to help 
the black students and in order to achieve full educational

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



453a

opportunities for both black and white, that the schools 
should not be all black or all white? A. Yes, sir. I said 
educationally that is sound, yes.

Q. Then on what criteria or what basis are you leaving 
five black schools other than the bussing ? A . That’s right. 
We didn’t have anywhere to put them.

[128] Q. Well then, couldn’t you do it by bussing? A. 
You could do it by cross-bussing.

Q. Is there anything in the court decree that says you 
cannot bus or cross-bus? A. No, sir.

Q. Well then, you have not really complied with the 
court’s decree then? A. Well, I guess the court will prob­
ably tell us if we haven’t.

Q. Y/ell, I mean in your opinion, based on your defini­
tion or understanding of what the court said, and you left 
five black schools unsegregated? A. We tried and we 
could not figure out any way and we spent hours and hours 
trying to figure it out.

Q. Then the students in those five black schools will for­
ever and continue to suffer from good educational oppor­
tunities? A. No. We made this general statement, that 
any new construction should be, not be in the areas in the 
black residential areas, but as buildings were replaced, that 
they ought to be out where they would be mixed. Now, 
that is a long-range part of it but it—

Q. Well, what about those students in school now that 
will soon be out of school and in the community, they will 
then continue to suffer as those in the past for the lack of 
better educational [129] opportunities then? A. That’s 
right, and the only recommendation, the only part I can 
say at all to justify that is—

Q. Well, isn’t it a fact—

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



454a

Mr. Gorman: Let him finish his answer.

A. Is that the school system ought to make a strong effort 
there for other aspects of compensatory education, which 
I said I didn’t think were as effective as the integration.

Q. When you say compensatory, you mean give those 
pupils some money or what do you mean? A. I mean give 
them power, give them more teachers, more books, more 
help of every kind that you can in a situation of this kind, 
and they would, I think they would be fully justified in 
spending more money in those schools, and again you run 
into this problem of treating all people equally but I think 
I can make a just case in justifying additional expenditure 
of funds and materials in those five schools.

Q. Dr. Hall, isn’t it an educational principle or concept 
that you educate fully the child, the whole child? A. Yes.

Q. That has been a principle for how long? A. Well—
Q. By educators? [130] A. As long as I have been in 

education.
Q. And how many students are over there at those five 

schools? A. I don’t know the exact numbers. I would 
guess about four or five thousand but I don’t know the 
exact numbers.

Q. So those four or five thousand black students will go 
lacking of development of the full child while waiting on the 
School Board to make up its mind about building another 
school, is that right? A. Well, that’s—the only plan we 
had for that was compensatory education of a different 
type and it would not involve the integration situation.

Q. Now, have you discussed with Mr. McPherson or any 
member of the School Board, member of the Board or ad­

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



455a

ministrative staff, about the implementation of your sug­
gestions which is found in the back of that proposal? A. 
No, other than to give them a copy of the report and to indi­
cate the time schedule.

Q. And are you aware of the fact that as a result of news 
releases that just the opposite is taking place? A. I am— 
to this morning. I read this morning’s paper but I haven’t 
seen any other papers about this thing. I don’t know what 
is happening.

Q. Then based upon what you read in this morning’s 
paper about [131] the School Board’s policies and issues 
and statements made, have you read enough to form an 
opinion that the School Board does not have or does not 
intend to follow any good faith orders or implementation of 
school segregation or desegregation? A. The things I 
read in the paper, there was an editorial and some com­
ments by a Congressman. I didn’t see anything about, I 
haven’t read anything about the School Board itself. I had 
the feeling in both the Congressman’s statement and the 
editorial that the Congressman seemed to be talking about 
the Civil Rights Act and not to distinguish between that 
and the court. He was talking about civil rights and the 
H.E.W. and all that sort of business, and this is something 
different and I thought the paper in its editorial should 
have picked up the difference, but this suit is not based on, 
as I understand it, based on the Civil Rights Act but it is 
based on the Constitution and court principles.

Q. Have you found anything in the School Board’s file 
or a discussion verbally what Mr. McPherson or Super­
intendent Burns or any member of the School Board that 
reflects that they have been responsible to the community

Deposition of Dr. Joe Mall on July 15, 1969



456a

in the implementation of any of the School Board’s plans 
within the last five years f

Mr. Philips: I am going to object to that because 
the question [132] implies that he has examined the 
School Board’s file and there is no testimony that 
he has examined any such file. You refer to a file. 
There is no implication in the question as to what 
file and no implication that it implies that he ex­
amines files. I think he has testified that he hasn’t. 
It implies that he has talked with School Board mem­
bers and I think he testified that he hasn’t, and it 
implies that he has talked with Dr. Burns and he 
has not testified that he has. I don’t know whether 
he has or not.

Mr. Crawford: Well, I am asking him.

A. I have talked with Dr. Burns and I have talked with 
Mr. McPherson and both of them made similar statements 
to me, that they were not opposed to desegregation or in­
tegration, that they were moving ahead in a way that they 
seemed to be quite proud of, and that they were not object- 
ing, that they had followed, they were saying they had fol­
lowed the court orders they had received to the letter. They 
did express some little feeling that the court orders com­
ing at times when they did had caused quite an additional 
expenditure of funds, that if the court orders had come 
earlier or later, that they would not have had that, that 
they could have handled them without the additional ex­
pense involved.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



457a

Q. Now, back to the five schools that are left all black, 
when [133] in your opinion can the School Board effec­
tively bring about desegregation of those schools in terms 
of months or years ? A. I don’t, I am not in a position to 
give a time statement on it. We did suggest that no build­
ings be replaced. Now, what the, just for a period of time, 
just the economics of the thing, of building additional 
schools, unless there are funds forthcoming from a source 
that is not now available, it would be a considerable period 
of time, and that is the reason I suggested that they go all 
out with a compensatory educational program in those 
schools.

Q. Well now, do you stand to be— A. I would—
Q. Excuse me. You would what? A. I would stamp 

them in accordance, the schools in accordance with the pro­
posals made for faculty desegregation and I would put 
additional staff in those schools through my Elementary- 
Secondary Education Act funds and through other pro­
grams, and then I would try to scrape up some additional 
funds from somewhere to make those schools show places 
and not only, I mean I don’t mean that in terms of a place 
to show but I mean a place where real education is going 
on. I mean it is possible, you see, in an all-black situation 
to produce with compensatory education, and I have had 
some experience on [134] this because I have tried it—if 
you put the power in there to get at least the aspect of the 
school program with which so many people are concerned, 
that is your subject matter content in those programs. I 
tried to put them in an all-black elementary school. I put 
just a lot of extra power in there, more than you could 
ever afford to do on a mass basis, but in a mathematics

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



458a

program with fifth grade students in an all-black school, 
and they did become the best mathematics pupils in the 
county and they retained that right on through school 
but it took one heck of a lot of—well, I ’ll not say money. 
Actually it wasn’t money. It was materials and additional 
teachers to do it, but that compensatory thing will work 
in that respect.

Q. Well, is it your experience that if the black students 
in similar situations as the five schools we have discussed 
are given an opportunity, that they could within a short pe­
riod of time or within a reasonable period of time achieve 
the level of the white students in the other schools which 
were formerly all-white schools? A. Yes. I guess I would 
say yes.

Q. Well, what you are saying then, is it correct in saying 
that basically those black students are not necessarily re­
tarded or slow learners—that is, because of the conditions 
or the [135] facilities upon which they had to attend school 
that make them, that would be as stated previously by you, 
I believe, a little behind the white students? A. Yes. I 
think there are a whole series of factors including your 
home life, your educational level of your pupils, and the 
aspirations in the community that have been brought over 
a period of years and the opportunities that were open, a 
whole variety of things that are factors in that, but I don’t 
believe it’s any, that the average under-achievement, of 
which everyone is aware, of the negro pupils is an inherent 
characteristic. I think they have the ability and all kinds 
of things need to be done to pull it out.

Q. Now, to the administrative staff, in your report you 
listed at the personnel office at administration that you

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



459a

found as of December 17th, 1966, they had seventy-seven 
white persons in the administrative staff and thirteen negro 
persons in the administrative staff. Do you feel on the 
basis of those figures alone that it is shown a lack of con­
cern about the black schools? A. No, sir, not on the basis 
of that. I have felt that school systems or school officials 
have problems, that in dealing with both the white com­
munities and the black communities, and that the black 
community is apt to look with skepticism [136] even though 
everything may be all right, but unless there are some 
black people present, and I know of nothing in any laws 
or decrees or anything that have been said that you have 
to employ black people, but as purely a public relations 
matter I think school systems would be wise to have, to 
seek out and find some black people for their top staff just 
from the public relations angle even though they may not 
do any different from what had been previously done.

Q. Well, based upon the figures quoted as found on tables 
two-eight as it relates to the administration, do you feel that 
or is it your opinion, professional opinion, that if the School 
Board had wanted to deal more fairly with the predomi­
nantly black schools in light of the black supervisors would 
have more knowledge of what is required in black schools 
or what is lacking in black schools, that it should have 
had black supervisors and other black persons on the ad­
ministrative staff to deal more effectively with the pre­
dominantly black schools or all-black schools? A. Well, 
you get into that definition again of making no distinction 
because of race, and so I ran into this problem in my own 
school system, that they said make no distinction because 
of race. Then you would start looking for people to fill

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



460a

various positions, and most of the employment agencies 
around [137] the country and most of the people where 
you would get recommendations from if you sent out­
side the school system would send you white people. I 
mean, you know, so—

Q. All right. Now—•

Mr. Philips: Let him finish his answer.

A. Let me just finish that.

Mr. Crawford: But that is irrelevant and imma­
terial to the question.

Mr. Philips: You asked Dr. Hall the question and 
he is responding to the question. Let him finish his 
answer.

A. I think it will he before I get through, so I think there’s 
a period of time when the school systems would be wise to 
say fill positions with qualified people and with a certain 
number of them, fill them with black people, and then after 
you have gone beyond that time, I don’t know what the 
time is, say four or five years, but, all right, you’ve gone 
beyond that time, then you can become color blind in your 
selection of employees, but just as a matter of course, sup­
pose one of those positions came open right now, the 
chances are that no black people would apply to fill it and 
the chances are also that if they sent applications all over 
the United States, that they would come back and the great 
majority of anybody who responded to it, was interested 
in the position, would [138] be, they would be white people

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



461a

so they have a very difficult time, recognize that, of getting 
them and I have advised boards, not as a matter of law 
but as a matter of public relations, that they ought de­
liberately to set a policy that would enable them to seek 
highly qualified, capable negro people for some of these top 
positions, but if you start out and say we’re color blind and 
we’re going to take them, well, then you come back with 
the same color you’ve got.

Q. Well then, how can you distinguish that statement in 
light of the fact that you have as on table three, seventy- 
seven white and thirteen negroes and when you have almost 
one-third or better negro school pupils! A. Well, I would 
say that—now, I don’t have any basis for a judgment. I 
would just say, though, that—well, I have no basis for say­
ing anything about Mobile one way or the other on that 
particular point.

Q. Well, I mean if you just looked at the statistics alone. 
A. But just as a matter of general principle, you could say 
—I ’ll put it that why—that if they sought the most quali­
fied people and were color blind, then these were the people 
that they came up with, but you could also say that they 
had discriminated against blacks. Now, just—you could 
make either kind of judgment from it, but I was saying that 
from the ex- [139] perience that I have had, if you go seek­
ing—you see, if you use this definition that you will be 
color blind in your selection, then with the structure that 
you have, the chances are that you will come up with a 
white person. You will have a lot more to choose from, and 
as a guideline I think Boards would be wise, I don’t know 
of any laws that require it, but they would be wise to set a

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



462a

certain percentage of blacks and fill the positions with well 
qualified black people.

Q. Then yon are suggesting that the Board do that! A. 
Well, I don’t know anything about that point, but if they 
asked me, I would suggest it but they probably won’t ask 
me. I have told other Boards that, yes. I have told other 
Boards, I have written a stronger statement than that. I 
have told other Boards in some of the reports that I have 
written that the number of, that the personnel in the posi­
tions of principals and positions of, top staff positions 
should approximate about the same ratio as the pupil popu­
lation in the schools.

Q. Did you so recommend that to the Mobile County Pub­
lic School System? A. Well, that isn’t in this report here.

Q. I know that but I am saying would you so recom­
mend that?

Mr. Philips: I think the report reflects his recom­
mendations.

A. Well, if somebody asked me to, I would, yes, but I don’t 
think [140] it’s—I ’ll be frank with you, I don’t think it’s 
required by law.

Q. Well, I didn’t say that. I asked you would you recom­
mend that? A. Yes. I recommended it to my own Board. 
Now, I couldn’t get them to approve it but I recommended 
it anyway.

Q. Well then, can you account for the difference in the 
specialized courses that are offered at all-white schools 
and are not offered at—at all predominantly white schools, 
white schools where you have two negroes in a student body

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



463a

of three hundred, and the lack of such in the predominantly 
or all-black schools, where these specialized courses are 
offered in one as opposed to the other consistently? A. 
Yes, I can account for that in a number of ways.

Q. How can you account for that? A. The basic or re­
quired courses, as I understood it—

Q. I said specialized courses. A. I know, I am going to 
get to that. Are required of all schools. Now, the special­
ized courses are up to the individual school. For example, 
if the principal and the faculty and the students want a 
course in say creative writing, they can have it.

Q. Well, Doctor, are you speaking of what is done in 
Mobile County or what is done generally from, your expe­
rience? [141] A. No, I am talking about in Mobile County.

Q. I see. A. And so—at least this is my understanding- 
now, but if the—

Q. Is that documented or is this just what was told you?

Mr. Philips: Wait a minute. Let him finish his 
statement.

A. Yeah, it’s in that section on the course of study, I think, 
the policies under which they operate, so that the initiative 
for the additional specialized courses comes from the school 
as they want these special courses, so either those all-black 
schools did not feel the need for these courses and did not 
have enough pupils who were interested or they did not 
pursue the, aggressively pursue it, but there would be no, 
there is no County controlling policy that would prevent 
them from having it. They could have the course—they 
could have the course if they wanted it. We suggested in

Deposition of Dr. Joe Mall on July 15, 1969



464a

there that the County probably ought to take a little more 
aggressive action to see that they did give consideration to 
some of these specialized courses in these schools because 
it may be that the leadership that they now have is not 
pushing it hard enough.

Mr. Crawford: I believe that is about all.

A. But, you see, in most school systems, if you have got a 
qualified teacher and you’ve got thirty kids, you can offer 
any course you want to, but if you’ve only got five kids that 
[142] want a course, you can’t afford to offer it because 
that, you’ve got to have that teacher load going along there 
and that teacher has got to handle a hundred and fifty or a 
hundred and sixty pupils a day. Now, if some teacher 
wants to teach an extra period or something and handle a 
group of five or six, but there has to be the interest in the 
course. Now, some schools and some teachers, some depart­
ment heads, are responsible for stimulating interest in 
these courses and these specialized courses, and so you 
could attribute it then to a more aggressive action on the 
part of the teachers and the principal and the school in the 
specialized courses, and I ’m not even saying it’s better for 
them to take creative writing than it is straight old English 
or some other course, but that is the way the specialized 
courses get in.

Q. Then are you saying that in Mobile County public 
schools the principals and faculty of just the high schools, 
of Williamson, Dunbar, Central, Blount, and Mobile County 
Training School, did not request these specialized courses 
is why they didn’t get them as it is opposed to Vigor,

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



465a

Murphy and Davidson? A. I could not answer that ques­
tion specifically. I could say from what I understand the 
way the policy operates they could have had the courses if 
they wanted them and had enough students to have them, 
and maybe they don’t want them. Maybe [143] they made 
a judgment on them and sometimes some of these schools 
will come up with some of these specialized courses and 
they aren’t worth a hoot.

Mr. Crawford: Now, I am speaking principally 
and my question relates to the proposals in tables 
four-two, four-two-a, four-twTo-b on through four- 
two-g, which I would like to—

A. Well, what I am saying, my understanding—

Mr. Crawford: Let me finish, please.

A. Yes, I ’m sorry.

Mr. Crawford: Which I would like to introduce 
into the records in support of your answers to my 
questions.

Mr. Philips: The report is already in the court, 
Mr. Crawford, the full report.

Mr. Crawford: Well, rather then encumber this 
record, then give specific reference to those tables, 
and the court reporter will so note that, and also the 
one on pupil administrative staff, I think I made 
reference to that. I have no further questions.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



466a

Redirect Examination by Mr. Philips:

Q. Dr. Hall, with reference to compensatory education, 
just to clear up something in my own mind, you said for 
those who are in need of help or for those who need this 
compensatory [144] education, the most satisfactory way 
to your mind to do it is to place negro students in schools 
with white students, and you said in this instance with the 
number of students you found the best way to do that was 
by bussing of the negro students, taking them from the 
area where they lived to get them to this white school was 
the best way to accomplish this compensatory education. I 
mean is that an accurate statement of what you said? A. 
Yes, that is an accurate statement, but when we went into 
the other five, there wasn’t any room.

Q. All right. Now, let me ask you this: How do you de­
termine what school, what student is in need of compensa­
tory education? How did you determine it in this instance? 
Did you review the record of each student and say we’ll 
bus this one and not bus that one, this one needs compen­
satory education and we’ll bus him but the other one doesn’t 
so we won’t bus him? A. No, sir. We just took it by areas.

Q. You just made the broad assumption then that every­
body, every student in this area needed compensatory edu­
cation? A. Yes.

Q. Whether he was an F student or an A-plus student or 
whatever? A. Well, I—

[145] Q. In this context? A. In the, as we are talking 
about this thing, you see, these other five schools, I think 
we, I agreed with the question there that they were going 
to be deprived and I saw no way of resolving it, but be­
cause you can’t help everybody, there is no reason why you 
shouldn’t help somebody.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



467a

Q. No, I am talking about these in the schools where you 
have given them the compensatory education, these that you 
are bussing out, that you recommend the closing of the 
school and bussing out. You just arbitrarily assumed that 
every student in that school is in need of compensatory 
education? A. Well, I wasn’t quite, I think I made a more 
fundamental statement than that earlier, that in the total, 
the development of the total child, reference was made here, 
in our society today, I thought it was better both for white 
and the black pupils to have experiences in school of being 
associated with each other. Now, this is not necessarily, 
that doesn’t necessarily involve compensatory in the usual 
sense of the word. You think of compensatory, if a person 
is two years behind in reading, to help him catch up, but 
this would, being put in that situation would help him 
catch up.

Q. Well, what do you mean “ compensatory” ? Do you 
mean compensatory and then you mean simply— [146] 
A. By compensatory I mean a lower reading level, a lower 
arithmetic level or what-have-you, that’s right.

Q. Well then, every one of these students that you rec­
ommend the bussing for, you have assumed or taken the 
premise that they need this compensatory education? A. I 
would assume that all of the students needed it and these 
are the only ones that we can handle.

Q. Okay. You referred to a situation in your own school 
system where you had taken a group of students and con­
centrated them, put the power to them, I believe you 
phrased it. You could do this with most any group of stu­
dents, couldn’t you? A. Yes, I think so.

Q. If you had the facilities and the funds and simply con­
centrated the effort on making a super-student, you could

Deposition of Dr. Joe Mali on J u ly  15, 1969



468a

do this with any student within reasonable bounds! A. Yes, 
I think yon could.

Q. You mentioned adjustments being necessary in the 
lines of the attendance areas as they have been submitted 
to the court. Do you have in mind the possibility of adjust­
ments being necessary in connection with the operations of 
the school system this coming year or did you have refer­
ence to adjustments the year after? A. For this coming 
year I would say no particular necessity for [147] adjust­
ments in boundary lines.

Q. You think they are adequate and satisfactory just as 
they are? A. That would be my opinion, but if in exploring 
it they found out it was off somewhere, then everybody 
would be foolish not to change it, as long as you haven’t 
got—all factors being equal. In other words, if we made an 
error and have got two hundred too many pupils in one 
school and two hundred too few in another, and you could 
move the boundary line over, well, it would be foolish not 
to do it, and I want to say that we are not above making 
errors. Good gracious.

Q. Were these attendance area lines, just as a basic prin­
ciple, drawn on a non-racial basis or on a racial basis? A. 
Well, it depends on what your definition is. They were 
drawn to get desegregation so I would say you would have 
to say the element of race was in there.

Q. They were drawn on a racial basis as opposed to a 
non-racial basis ? A. Yes, depending on what your defini­
tion is all along the line.

Q. All right. Now, did you or anybody working under 
your direction make any effort to trace out the locations of 
these lines where you had drawn out, trace out—I mean by

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



469a

going out and observing them physically, where the lines 
yon put on the map would lie in reality! [148] A. In some 
of them we did. In most of them we tried to follow as 
closely as we could lines which the school system is already 
using.

Q. Which ones did you trace out, do you have any— A. 
Oh, I wouldn’t remember. Take the Murphy-Williamson, 
the line between Murphy and Williamson that we drew. We 
drewT it, I think, on the same line that they are now using 
for ninth graders.

Q. Well, I am not talking about those in which you used 
the same line position but I am talking about whether or 
not you actually went out and traced out in the street, went 
out and followed where your lines would lief A. No. No, 
we used the maps for that and then—we drove around a lot 
but not specifically to trace out a line.

Q. So as far as you know then, some of these lines you 
have may go through the middle of shopping centers and 
things of this nature. You have no way of knowing whether 
they do or do not! A. Well, they might—no, I have no way 
of knowing whether they do or not except we generally fol­
lowed a pattern that had been previously developed by the 
School Board.

Q. But when you deviated from that, then you were out 
in an area where you had no knowledge of just where that 
line would lie, is that correct! [149] A. That’s correct.

Q. With relationship to shopping centers, commercial 
areas, heavy traffic arteries or natural barriers or hazards ? 
A. Well, we tried to avoid all natural barriers, at least as 
far as we could find them on our maps.

Q. Those which you observed on the maps! A. Yes.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



470a

Q. Were your lines drawn with any regard to the exist­
ence of commercial transportation lines, bus lines! I am 
not talking about what might exist but— A. No, other than 
—well, the junior and senior highs basically followed the 
same pattern that you now have, you see, that you already 
have. Now, the elementary schools where we varied them, 
we did not.

Q. Do you have any knowledge of the bus routes, com­
mercial city bus lines in Mobile? A. No, sir.

Q. Did you make any inquiry into that? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you have any knowledge of the flow of traffic in­

sofar as residential to commercial? A. Yes.
Q. "Where did you acquire that information? [150] A. 

We acquired it from studying the maps and just talking 
with different people around here and going around and 
looking where the—

Q. Who did you talk with? A. Well, we talked with some 
of the people from the University of South Alabama and 
asked them where the, how the traffic flowed and the way 
you could get from here to there, and where we had a real 
question about it, where it deviated from the plan that they 
were now using, we would check that.

Q. How many did you check? A. Oh, I don’t know. I 
couldn’t answer that.

Q. Was it a hundred? A. No, I am sure it wasn’t a 
hundred.

Q. Ten? A. Maybe about ten. That would be nearer 
than a hundred.

Mr. Philips: I have no further questions.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



471a

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969 

Recross Examination by Mr. Gorman:

Q. I just have one area briefly here. Now, your testimony 
with respect to compensatory education and with respect to 
drawing the lines and the educational considerations in 
drawing them and obtaining an integrated education is a 
little bit confused in mv mind. Is it accurate to say that 
as an edu- [151] cator you believe that a higher quality of 
education or educational opportunity can be obtained where 
an integrated educational set up or situation is involved 
rather than all one race? A. Yes.

Q. Now, so in drawing the lines then you had two con­
siderations. You had the consideration of placing as many 
children in the optimum educational environment to study, 
is that correct? A. Eight.

Q. And in addition to that and as a separate thing in mv 
mind—and now tell me if this is what you as an educator 
believe—this will create a situation where those who are in 
need of a compensatory educational situation will obtain 
it, say by placing students who were previously in all-black 
schools who are behind the white students in an integrated 
education, is that correct, so that you have a compensatory 
factor in addition to just placing children in an optimum 
educational environment? A. Yes. Could I illustrate what 
I am talking about?

Q. Well, let me pursue this just a little further. A. All 
right.

Q. I just wanted to get the distinction clear that in draw­
ing these lines you did not assume that every black student 
in [152] a previously black school needed a compensatory 
situation? A. No, I didn’t say that, I don’t think.



472a

Q. But that if any of those who were now placed in white 
schools or integrated schools were behind, it would have a 
compensatory factor as well! A. Yes.

Mr. Gorman: Okay. Thank you. That’s all. Now, 
if you want to comment further on that, go ahead.

A. Well, I don’t know as it’s necessary. I was going to 
talk about expense.

Mr. Crawford: Let’s go ahead.
Mr. Philips: All right. That will be all.

Deposition of Dr. Joe Hall on July 15, 1969



473a

I n the

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 

F or the Southern D istrict of A labama 

Southern Division 

Civil Action No. 3003-63

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969

B irdie Mae Davis, et al.,
Plaintiffs,

and

United States of A merica, by Ramsey Clark, 
Attorney General, etc.,

Plaintiff-Intervenor,

B oard of School Commissioners of 
Mobile County, et al.,

and
Defendants,

J. T wila Frazier, et al.,

Defendants-Intervenors.

A ppearances:

For Plaintiffs—
Crawford & F ields

By: V ernon Z. Crawford, Esq.



474a

For Plaintiff-Intervenor—•
W alter Gorman, Esq.

For Defendants—
P illans, B eams, Tappan, W ood & R oberts 

By: A bram L. P hilips, Jr., Esq.

At.so Present:

James A. McP herson, Associate Superintendent, 
Mobile County Public School System

B obby R. Clardy, Board of School Commissioners 
of Mobile County

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969

[4] Jesse J. J ordan, having been first duly and legally 
sworn, testified on his oath as follows:

On Direct Examination by Mr. Philips:

Q. State your full name, if you will, please! A. Jesse 
Joseph Jordan.

Q. And your address! A. My home address!
Q. Yes. A. 782 Pinehill Drive, Smyrna, Georgia.
Q. And your office address! A. Number 50 Seventh 

Street Northeast, Atlanta, Georgia.
Q. How old are you, Mr. Jordan! A. Forty-six in July. 
Q. Are you married! A. Yes.
Q. Do you have children! A. One.
Q. How old is the child! A. Twenty-two.
Q. What is your employment, Mr. Jordan! What do you 

do! A. I am employed with the Department of Health,



475a

Education and Welfare in the Office of Education in the 
Bureau of Elementary and Secondary in the Office of 
Title IV.

[5] Q. And what is the Office of Title IV? A. Title IV 
is the Technical Assistance Program funded under the 
Civil Bights Act of 1964.

Q. What does your primary work consist of? A. Lend­
ing assistance to school systems on problems incident to 
desegregation. It takes two forms. One is in the form of 
in-service training programs, institute programs. The other 
is in the form of developing, assisting school systems in 
developing desegregation plans.

Q. Mr. Jordan, have you talked with anybody prior to 
coming here today about the subject of this deposition? A. 
I have talked with Mr. G-orman.

Q. Who is Mr. Gorman? A. Mr. Gorman is the attorney 
for the Defense Department, the Justice Department, I 
beg your pardon.

Q. Is he regularly attached to your office as an attorney? 
A. N o,  sir.

Q. Does the Department of Health, Education and Wel­
fare have its own attorneys? A. Tes, sir.

Q. Now, Mr. Jordan, your subpoena required you to be 
here at ten o ’clock yesterday. A. Yes, sir.

[6] Q. And you were not here at that time. On whose 
direction did you not appear at that time? A. Mr. Gorman 
called me and asked me about whether I was going to be 
here or not. I was in town. I had responsibilities involving 
court cases in Mississippi that I needed to attend yester­
day, and I asked him if it would be all right, if he could 
get it changed until today for my personal convenience in 
working with these other cases. He said that he did.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



476a

Q. Did you contact anybody else about that other than 
the attorney for the United States Department of Justice? 
A. No, sir.

Q. When did you first discuss the subject of this depo­
sition with Mr. Gorman? A. Yesterday by telephone about 
changing it until today and then last night.

Q. Have you discussed the deposition with the attorneys 
for any of the other parties? A. No, sir.

Q. Give us your background, if you will, Mr. Jordan, 
from an educational standpoint and a professional stand­
point? A. I have a bachelor degree with a major in math 
and a minor in science and education from Auburn Uni­
versity with a master’s degree in school administration 
from Auburn University. I [7] have been a teacher, prin­
cipal, director of school transportation, director of Federal 
programs, director of maintenance and operation, and as­
sistant superintendent.

Q. Have you ever been the superintendent of a school 
system? A. No, sir.

Q. Where were you assistant superintendent? A. Cobb 
County, Georgia.

Q. Cobb County. What is the major city in Cobb County? 
A. Marietta. However, this is not—Marietta is a city sys­
tem within Cobb County.

Q. How large a system is Cobb County? A. Approxi­
mately forty thousand students.

Q. How long were you assistant superintendent? A. As­
sistant superintendent, I went with Mr. Paul Sprayberry 
who was superintendent in 1955 and I remained in the cen­
tral office and I was there in various categories until 1967.

Q. Prior to that time what position did you have? A. I 
was a principal in the same school system.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



477a

Q. High school principal or elementary school principal! 
A. Elementary school principal.

Q. And prior to that time? A . Prior to that time I was 
a teacher.

Q. In the same system! [8] A. No. I was in the Mar­
ietta city system which is in the same county but a separate 
school system.

Q. Okay. And since leaving the assistant superinten­
dent’s position, what has been your professional back­
ground? A. When I left Cobb County in 1967, the first 
thing I spent three months writing a Title IV, I beg your 
pardon, a Title III project covering twenty-three school 
systems. I contracted with the twenty-three school sys­
tems to write a Title III project covering all twenty-three. 
I spent three months doing that. At the completion of that 
time I went to work with the Office of Education. I went 
with the Office of Education in the SAFA program. That’s 
federal funds for impacted areas. I was with SAFA for 
six months at the end of which time I transferred to the 
position I am in now.

Q. The Title III program, what is that? A. Title III is 
under public law 8910, the Elementary-Secondary Act. 
Title III is for integrated programs in education.

Q. What school systems were you writing the Title III 
program for? A. For the Seventh District of Georgia. 
It is the twenty-three school systems comprising the Sev­
enth District of Georgia. That is the northwest corner of 
Georgia.

Q. Okay. Now, what is your position presently? [9] A. 
I am the, what is called the Senior Program Officer in the 
Title IV office of Atlanta, in the Atlanta division. That is 
region four, Federal region four.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



478a

Q. When was your first contact with the Mobile, Ala­
bama, Public School System? A. I can’t recall the exact 
date.

Q. All right. Let me rephrase that. When was your first 
contact with the Mobile County Public School System with 
reference to an order of the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals 
requiring the intervention of the Department of Health, 
Education and Welfare into the school system? A. I re­
ceived a call from Dr. Anrig in Washington, who is my 
immediate superior, saying that the court order had been 
issued. We were very short of staff help because of the 
heavy work load. I  contacted Dr. Joe Hall from the Uni­
versity of Miami to act as a consultant for us to direct 
the Mobile study. Dr. Hall came to Mobile and made the 
original contacts. I believe, I am not positive but I think 
that was somewhere around July 10th, I mean June 10th. 
Then a week later I joined Dr. Hall here.

Q. That was on June 17th? A. Approximately.
Q. Approximately? [10] A. I don’t recall the exact date, 

and my first actual contact with the school officials was 
the next day in which I believe I met with Dr. Hall, Mr. 
McPherson and others.

Q. Prior to your call from Dr. Anrig in Washington, 
who you say is your immediate superior, what preparation 
had been made for dealing with the Mobile system? A. 
Prior to that call ?

Q. Yes. A. I hadn’t made any preparation. I didn’t know 
about it prior to that call.

Q. Had you had any information at all concerning the 
Mobile school system prior to that? A. No, sir.

Q. What did Dr. Anrig instruct you to do? A. He in-

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



479a

strncted me to assign someone to make contact with the 
school system and start the work.

Q. What work? A. The work following the court order, 
the directions given in the court order.

Q. What were his exact words as near as you can re­
member? A. This has been a long time ago and we talk 
over the telephone nearly every day. He told me that there 
had been, as I recall, that there had been a court order 
issued requesting us and [11] the school system to develop 
a plan which would be submitted to the court and that we 
should follow through with the court order.

Q. Who interpreted the court order? A. Who inter­
preted the court order?

Q. Yes. You were to follow through on it. Who inter­
preted it? A. Well, we obtained a copy of the court order 
and read it and followed it to the best of our ability.

Q. Who was “we” ? A. Dr. Hall and myself and the other 
consultants that we used.

Q. Who were they? A. Dr. Larry Weincoff from the 
University of South Carolina, and Dr. Michael Stolee from 
the University of Miami, and Dr. Woodward from the Uni­
versity of Alabama.

Q. These people were the ones called upon to interpret 
the decree? A. No. They were called on to assist in de­
veloping the plan.

Q. Who interpreted the decree? A. I don’t know that 
anyone interpreted it in that sense. Dr. Hall and I read 
it and simply followed it to the best of our ability. No one 
interpreted it to us. We didn’t go to an attorney or any­
thing and ask anybody to interpret it to us. We are not 
lawyers and we didn’t work with lawyers.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



480a

Q. Someone had to interpret it to determine what it re­
quired. [12] This is what I had in mind. Who did that? 
A. Dr. Hall and myself did this.

Q. Okay. And on what basis did you interpret the de­
cree? A. Well, as we understood the court order, we were 
to develop a plan of desegregation to present to the School 
Board for their study and suggested changes which would 
I believe the court order said affirmatively desegregate the 
schools.

Q. And what did you interpret that to mean? A.jWe in­
terpreted that to mean that our plan should result in 
maximum desegregation consistent with educational prin­
ciples,

Q. What was the—in your interpretation of the decree 
and your development of a procedure to follow the decree, 
what was your primary concern? A. Our primary concern 
was to achieve maximum desegregation consistent with 
administrative principles.

Q. And do you feel that the plan that has been developed 
and submitted to the court does that? A. Yes, sir. It is 
one plan that will do that, we think.

Q. Do you think it is totally consistent with good admin­
istrative procedure? A. Yes, sir, we think it is. In the 
viewpoint of the consultants we used, that we discussed it 
with, they thought it was.

Q. Do you think it is? [13] A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. Do you think it is totally consistent with good edu­

cational principles? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Totally consistent with all good educational factors? 

A. Yes, sir.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



481a

Q. It is not inconsistent in any way to good adminis­
trative procedure! A. Well, not to my knowledge, no.

Q. And not inconsistent in any way with good educa­
tional practice? A. No, sir, not that I know of,

Q. Who had the final authority, Dr. Jordan? Excuse 
me— A. Mr. Jordan.

Q. I ’m sorry. If I  lapse over and call you Dr. Jordan, 
please forgive me. I am not trying to he— A. It doesn’t 
make me mad. It flatters me, hut I don’t want to he called 
something I ’m not.

Q. I am not trying to be facetious with you and I am 
not trying to put you on. It’s just that I have—■ A. Most 
of the people that work in this program are doctors.

Q. And I mean no disrespect by it. Who had the final 
authority with reference to the interpretation of the plan, 
I mean the interpretation of the court order in the develop­
ment of the [14] plan? A. Before we submit any plan to 
a school system, we clear it personally with Dr. An rig.

Q. Who had the final authority below Dr. Anrig? A. I 
assume that would be myself. I don’t submit a plan until 
he gives his approval on it.

Q. And it’s you who determines what, who ultimately 
determines what will be submitted to him? A. Yes, sir. I 
submit it to him. He studies it, suggests, makes suggested 
changes on it, sometimes changes it, and then we make 
those changes and submit it.

Q. Okay. All right. Now, other than Dr. Anrig and Dr. 
Stolee and Dr. Weineoff, you mentioned Dr. Hall and your­
self. Who else worked on the development of the plan 
that you developed for the Mobile school system? A. On 
the plan itself?

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



482a

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969 

Q. Yes, sir. A. That’s all.
Q. Was there anyone else you conferred with about the 

plan? A. Dr. Woodward did the financial study as part 
of the plan. Much of the demographic study was provided 
by the "University of South Alabama.

Q. By demographic, if you will define that a little closer? 
[15] A. I believe that is Chapter One of the plan.

Q. That concerns the general background of the Mobile 
area? A. Statistics about the Mobile area, yes, sir.

Q. Did you give them any specific directions as to what 
they would develop in the demographic study? A. No, sir.
I merely asked them to develop the demographic back­
ground for us.

Q. Do you have any knowledge of their source material? 
A. No, sir.

Q. Now, who developed the actual desegregation portion 
of the study, the actual arrangement of attendance areas 
and this aspect of it? A. You mean the actual zones?

Q. Yes. A. Well, I don’t think any one person developed 
all of them. All of us were working in one room together. 
We had maps on the wall, the pupil locater maps on the 
wall. We took the zones that were given to us by the 
school system and everybody would suggest a change and 
discuss it and make other changes. I know that any one 
person of the group—it was a joint effort.

Q. Of who? A. Of Dr. Hall, Dr. Stolee, Dr. Weincoff and
myself.

[16] Q. Who suggested the location of students by trans­
porting them by bus in this system? A. You mean who 
made the original suggestion?



483a

Q. Yes. A. I don’t recall. It just evolved in the dis­
cussion. I  don’t recall who brought it up first.

Q. Was it your interpretation that this was permissible 
under the decree or required under the decree? A. No, sir, 
I didn’t know. My personal opinion was that the decree 
asked that each school be fully or effectively or affirma­
tively desegregated. To get those particular children in 
a better atmosphere and also to desegregate those schools, 
it appeared to us that transportation was the only way. I 
don’t know whether this is legal or not. We suggested it 
and then put language into it to say that we didn’t know. 
We were not attorneys. We didn’t have the advice of at­
torneys. It was not available to us, and so we suggested 
that if it were legal, this was one way to do it, and if it 
were not legal, it would require other wTays.

Q. Does the Department of Health, Education and Wel­
fare have attorneys available to it? A. The Department 
has attorneys, yes, sir, but we do not have attorneys avail­
able to consult on this. My interpretation [17] of court 
orders has been with quite a number of them now, has been 
that the court order appears to me, and I am not a lawyer, 
but it appears to me that it tells us to work with the 
school system and it doesn’t tell us to work with anybody 
else, and so I have not contacted attorneys in H.E.W. or 
plaintiff’s attorneys or lawyers, period.

Q. Or attorneys for the school system? A. Well now, 
I have talked with attorneys for the school system in vari­
ous cases because they would be with the school people 
and I interpreted that as being a part of the school, but 
other than talking with the attorneys of the various school 
boards, I haven’t talked with them, with other attorneys.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



484a

Q. All right. Did you talk with attorneys for the Mobile 
School Board? A. No, sir. My only contact was with Mr. 
McPherson, Dr. Burns and other members of the staff. I 
believe you did attend one meeting we had with Judge 
Martin.

Q. Judge Thomas. A. I ’m sorry. I ’m thinking about an­
other court. Judge Thomas, that’s correct. I have to be 
in Judge Martin’s court tomorrow.

Q. Mr. Jordan, I want to get your personal opinion on 
some things as an educator or whatever you are. I  would 
like to have your [18] personal professional opinion on 
several things. What is your personal professional opinion 
on the bussing of students in order to achieve a racial bal­
ance in the school system? A. In order to achieve racial 
balance ?

Q. Yes. A. I don’t think you should bus to achieve, 
merely to achieve racial balance. I think the school sys­
tems have bussed over the years to achieve better educa­
tion and I think that the best compensatory education you 
can have, for instance, is bussing disadvantaged children 
into a more advantaged neighborhood for education. Dr. 
Morrill Weinberg, who has done some research on this, 
indicates that the children do far better when they are put 
in another environment.

Q. What is compensatory education? A. Well, com­
pensatory education to me and to various educators would 
have various definitions of it, but to me it’s education to 
bring students up to a higher level than presently exists.

Q. I see. And is that the definition of compensatory edu­
cation as you spoke of compensatory education in your 
previous answer? A. In this sense, yes.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



485a

Q. In your previous answer you referred to compen­
satory education. A. Yes.

Q. And this is the definition of compensatory education 
as you [19] were using it in that answer! A. In that 
sense, yes, sir.

Q. Okay. How do you determine, in the Mobile plan 
how did you determine, Dr. Jordan, that all of these stu­
dents were in need of compensatory education! A. Well, 
I don’t know that they are in need of compensatory edu­
cation. Our thinking was that they would probably achieve 
better in a different setting.

Q. But you had no knowledge of their achievements! 
A. No, sir. I did not study testing results or anything of 
this nature.

Q. You were just assuming that they needed compen­
satory education— A. I was basing that on the—

Q. And you were going to give it to them whether they 
needed it or not!

Mr. Gorman: Now, that is not what he testified to 
at all, Mr. Philips. I wish you would refrain from 
characterizing his testimony.

Q. What is your opinion, Mr. Jordan— A. I was go­
ing—

Q. Let me finish the question. What is your opinion as 
a professional educator of allowing students to attend 
school on the basis of their choice of school, free choice 
of school! [20] A. Free choice!

Q. Yes. A. Well, for many, many years, for more years 
before anyone ever discussed free choice, students were

Deposition o f Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



486a

assigned by attendance areas and depending on the grade 
structure of the school. If free choice resulted in the right, 
in effective desegregation and good education, free choice 
is probably workable. I know personally of no instance 
where presently freedom of choice is working.

Q. Working in what respect! A. In the respect that the 
legal requirements for desegregation are being met.

Q. Do you know any instance where free choice has failed 
to work under any educational criteria, where it has failed 
in giving other than maximum integration of school sys­
tems ! A. Well, 1 belle,ve that a desegregated, education is 
far superior to a segregated education, and any system that 
results in all-white or all-black schools to my way of  think­
ing would be inferior education to desegregated education.

Q. Mr. Jordan, you refer to totally desegregating the 1 

school system. What is a totally desegregated school sys­
tem! Mr. Crawford is interested particularly. A. Well, 
to me personally, and this is to me personally, a deseg- 
[21] regated school system is one in which it has lost its 
racial identifiability. That is where the general public does 
not identify it as an all-white or an all-black school.

Q. Now, I am talking about a school system. A. Well, 
when every school loses its recial identifiability, that would 
be a desegregated school system.

Q. When does every school lose its racial identifiability! 
A. When it is no longer identified as a white or a black 
school.

Q. Identified by who and how do they identify it! A. 
Well, I would suggest that if you asked if Emerson School 
was an all-white or an all-black school, everyone would 
identify it as an all-black school. If Emerson were deseg­

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



487a

regated to the point where it was no longer recognized by 
the community as an all-white or an all-black school, then 
it would be effectively desegregated.

Q. Is there any particular point when a school is no 
longer all white or all black? A. You mean in terms of 
numbers ?

Q. Yes. A. I don’t think you could determine it on the 
basis of numbers.

Q. What do you determine it on? A. On the basis of its 
identifiability.

Q. All right. Based on that criteria, Mr. Jordan, howT is 
the [22] school system, how can you determine when a 
school system has reached maximum desegregation ? A. 
When it has lost its racial identifiability. I don’t know any 
better way of saying it.

Q. Well, that is fairly general. We have got Bienville 
School, for example, that had at one time been a tra­
ditionally white school. I  don’t know whether you are fa­
miliar with it or not. This past year enrollment was 
roughly fifty-fifty negro and white, but it’s still identified 
as an all-white school, identified as a white school tra­
ditionally. Is that a desegregated school or isn’t it? A. 
Well, I haven’t seen the school in session but I would as­
sume that a school that is fifty-fifty, then the school body 
would be a desegregated school, yes, sir.

Q. Even though everybody still identifies it as a white 
school? A. I think that if the school remained desegregated 
for a period of time, it would be recognized by the com­
munity as a desegregated school.

Q. So you would recognize the fifty-fifty as a deseg­

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



488a

regated school? A, Yes, sir, but I don’t think the ratio 
determines whether it’s desegregated or not.

Q. But you do recognize the fifty-fifty? A. Yes, sir.
[23] Q. All right. How about sixty-forty? A. I don’t 

know. I don’t think I could answer it on the basis of num­
bers. You can go fifty-fifty, sixty-forty and then get down 
to ninety-ten.

Q. How do you determine then—the only way you could 
determine then, as you say, is by racial identification of the 
schools. Now, did you make any survey in Mobile before 
you started your work among the people to determine their 
racial identification of every school in Mobile? A. No, sir.

Q. As far as you know, Mobile had a totally desegregated 
school system then, did it? A. Before we came to Mobile, 
I have no idea what Mobile had.

Q. All right. After you got to Mobile? A. Well, after 
I got to Mobile, I took the charts that we had, the infor­
mation given us by the school system and their amounts 
and used them as a start.

Q. And did they have a result of a survey as to how 
people identified schools, is that— A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. What did they contain? A. What did what contain?
Q. In determining, these charts and maps and things that 

you looked [24] at, did they have public opinion surveys 
giving how people identified schools or did they simply 
state the statistics of enrollment? A. No, we identified 
schools that had no white enrollment at all as identifiable 
as black schools, all black schools.

Q. A school that had some white enrollment, is that 
identified as an all-black school? A. I don’t—by numbers 
I can’t, I  don’t know how many it would take.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



489a

Q. This is what I am trying to find out from you. You 
say you identify schools as to whether they are deseg­
regated or not on the basis of how the public identifies 
them, and you came into the system and you made no 
effort to determine how the public identified schools, you 
used figures. A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.

Q. What did you consider was the primary directive of 
the decree, the court decree, Mr. Jordan? A. To fully and 
affirmatively desegregate the schools in the school system 
consistent with sound administration practices.

Q. Do you consider a transfer policy allowing transfers 
for good cause non-racial in character a good educational 
policy? A. Yes, sir. I think we recommended a transfer 
policy.

Q. Did you recommend a transfer for good cause non- 
racial in char- [25] acter? A. We recommended a majority 
to minority transfer.

Q. That is transfer on a racial basis, isn’t it? A. Well, 
that is where a student could transfer from a school in 
which his race was in a majority to a school in which his 
race is in a minority, white or black.

Q. That is then setting it up on a racial basis, isn’t it, 
taking race into account in order to determine whether the 
transfer will be granted? A. Well, it applies to both races, 
yes, sir.

Q. But it is on a racial basis, isn’t it, a racial criteria? 
A. Yes, sir, that is to, it is to assist students in transfer­
ring from a majority to a minority situation.

Q. The way you determine under that how to grant the 
transfer is on a racial basis, isn’t it? You take your race 
into account to determine whether he’s eligible for the

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



490a

transfer, don’t you! A. Well, it could be white or black, 
either one.

Q. But you do take Ms race into account, don’t you? 
I ’m not saying whether it’s white or black. I ’m asking you 
if it’s transfer on a racial basis? A. Well, if I understand 
what you are saying, I assume so, yes, sir.

[26] Q. Well, you wrote it. I didn’t. A. Well, I was not 
thinking in terms of a racial basis necessarily. I  was think­
ing in terms of all students.

Q. Well, all students but you determine his race to de­
termine whether he’s eligible for transfer? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the transfer policy that you recommended, Mr. 
Jordan, didn’t set it up in terms of where there might 
exist a school containing a majority of negro students. 
You said you set it up on the basis of whether there was 
a majority of negro or a majority of white students, is that 
correct? A. I don’t have that transfer policy in front of me.

Q. Well, I am asking you what you recommended. I can 
read the policy and I am sure you can, too. I  want to 
know—- A. If you will let me look at it, I can refresh my 
memory. I don’t recall exactly what it says.

Mr. Gorman: I think that the recommendations 
that they made are clear from the submission that 
they proposed and they should be clarified.

A. Well, I work on many of these and I don’t recall ex­
actly sometimes in detail the wording of each of them.

Q. Now, you said that you felt a transfer policy allow­
ing a transfer for good cause, any good cause, non-racially 
oriented was [27] a good transfer policy. A. I think that 
within any school system there arises from time to time

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



491a

special hardship cases that should be considered, a situa­
tion, a family situation or where an individual may work 
or the fact that he may be moving. I think that hardship 
situations exist, and where a hardship situation exists in a 
given family, they should be taken into consideration re­
gardless.

Q. And you think under a desegregation plan a school 
system should be free to grant such transfers? A. On those 
hardship cases, yes, sir.

Q- Did you include such a provision in the plan sub­
mitted in regard to Mobile? A. Of course, I don’t recall 
exactly what I wrote in that, what was written on that 
transfer. I will be glad to check one of them and refresh 
my memory.

Q. As Mr. Gorman says, it speaks for itself. I am just 
interested in whether you have any recollection of what 
you recommended in it. A. Of that particular clause I 
don’t remember the wording.

Q. Okay. I am interested in your personal professional 
opinion as to whether it is desirable or undesirable as a 
general proposition to take young elementary school stu­
dents, say the first, second and third grades, out of their 
neighborhoods and trans- [28] port them to other areas to 
attend school? A. I think that this is desirable if they 
obtain better education where they are being transferred to.

Q. Okay. What is your opinion generally on the neigh­
borhood school concept? Do you think that is desirable or 
undesirable? A. I think it depends—I think it depends on 
the neighborhood. In some neighborhoods where it might 
be a deprived neighborhood, I think there is some definite 
advantage in taking the children out of that neighborhood 
into a more advantaged neighborhood for education.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



492a

Q. And do yon assume a deprived school as well as a 
deprived neighborhood or just a deprived neighborhood? 
A. Well, a deprived neighborhood, now it quite often hap­
pens that the school in a deprived neighborhood is also 
a deprived school.

Q. Assuming that it’s not, you still think it’s better! A. 
I think it’s better to take them to the point where they 
can get the better education. Now, firmly believing, based 
on research, that desegregated education is superior to 
segregated education, if a community school results in seg­
regated education, then I think that is bad education.

Q. All right. Assuming you’ve got a school system where 
your [29] enrollment is entirely white, do you think it 
desirable to stick with the neighborhood school concept? 
A. I think the same would hold. If the children in the de­
prived neighborhood, and assuming that the neighborhood 
is all white, can obtain better education and achieve better 
education outside that neighborhood, they should be carried 
out.

Q. You then don’t agree with the neighborhood school 
concept? A. No, sir, I didn’t say I didn’t agree with the 
neighborhood school concept. I said that where it is a 
deprived neighborhood and better education can be achieved 
elsewhere, then they should go there.

Q. All right. Now, what study did you make of the neigh­
borhoods in Mobile before formulating the plan that you 
have submitted to the court? A. We did not make any in­
tensive study of neighborhoods. We visited a number of 
schools in a number of neighborhoods and we based it on 
the impressions that we got.

Q. Okay. Mr. Jordan, are you familiar with the term

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



493a

“ articulation” as it is used in connection with education! 
A. Well, I am not sure what sense you are using it in.

Q. All right. The sense I have in mind is the movement 
of students through an educational process as a regular 
group rather than being separated and moved to one school 
one year and [30] another school another year. Are you 
familiar with it in that sense? A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is your opinion of articulation? A. Well now, 
you are asking what is my opinion where the students move 
together or separately?

Q. Well, I am asking your opinion as to where the stu­
dents move through a regular process of schools rather 
than being detached from each other and moved to a dif­
ferent school every year? A. Well, I think it depends on 
your grade organization, and as I recall, the Mobile plan 
was set up basically on a five-three-four involving school 
complexes, and I think most children in most zones would 
move together through the educational process.

Q. All right. Do you think it desirable or undesirable 
to have students attend a different school each year? A. 
Well, I  think it depends on what the grade structure is. 
I wouldn’t think it would be desirable for a student to 
attend twelve different schools in twelve years.

Q. Do you think it would be undesirable then to put them 
in a school for one year’s time? A. In the Mobile plan we 
have several complexes set up where they would be in one 
school one year.

[31] Q. Do you think that is desirable as an educational 
concept? A. I think it’s desirable in this particular case.

Q. Well, do you think it’s desirable as a general educa­
tional concept? A. I think it’s a concept that is used fre­
quently throughout the country.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



494a

Q. For what purpose! A. Based on many factors, every 
school system varies. I know that I have run into, I  don’t 
recall all the exact names but there is every conceivable 
grade organization imaginable today.

Q. What was your purpose in using it in Mobile! A. 
That fit the educational and desegregation plan the best 
based on capacities.

Q. Would you have recommended that in Mobile if you 
had not been attempting to maximize desegregation in the 
school system! A. Well, I don’t know. I don’t know what 
I would have recommended if I had been doing a pure 
educational study not under a court order. We were trying 
to follow the court order as well as educational practices.

Q. If you had been doing a pure educational study under 
the court order, would you have recommended schools with 
a grade organizational structure of one year only! [32] A. 
If I was striving to achieve a set organizational pattern, 
it probably would have resulted in some, yes, sir. I don’t 
know whether it would have or not. I didn’t make that type 
of study.

Q. Well, do you think generally schools of a one year 
grade structure is a desirable thing, is a desirable edu­
cational concept! A. I wouldn’t deliberately set out to 
establish one grade structures in schools, no. These one 
grade structure schools in Mobile are really part of an 
overall complex, school complex.

Q. In your experience with desegregation, Mr. Jordan, 
have you found it generally desirable or undesirable to 
have a very small minority of one racial group or another 
in a school with a majority of the other! A. Generally 
speaking, I find it undesirable to have a small minority of 
any race.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



495a

Q. In a school with a large majority of the other? A. 
Yes, sir.

Q. Whether the small minority is white or black! A. 
White or black, yes, sir.

Q. Did yon interpret the court decree as requiring ab­
solutely or as absolutely as you could do it the elimination 
of every all-negro school? A. Yes.

[33] Q. And every all-white school? A. Yes.
Q. What was the status of desegregation in this Cobb 

County school at the time that you left it? A. They were 
in compliance at the time I left.

Q. In compliance with what? A. H.E.W. guidelines.
Q. Did they have any all-negro schools? A. When I 

left, I believe there was one that has since been closed.
Q. Did they have any all-white schools ? A. There are 

some all-white schools in Cobb County. The percentage of 
black students in Cobb County overall is small.

Q. How many schools do you have in Cobb County? A. 
I believe at the time I was there, there were fifty-five. 
Now, there may be more now.

Q. When did you leave there? A. In ’67.
Q. When in ’67 ? A. January the 1st.
Q. January the 1st? A. Yes.
Q. So your last experience was in 1966? A. Eight.
[34] Q. The ’66-’67 school year? A. Yes.
Q. And you say there were fifty-five schools at that time? 

A. I believe that is correct, the best I recall.
Q. And one all-negro and how many all-white schools 

were there at that time? A. I don’t recall exactly how many 
there were. We didn’t have— Cobb County never had a

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



496a

black high, school or a junior high school prior to the 1964 
Civil Bights Law.

Q. How many negro students did yon have? A. Let me 
see. There were abont two thonsand.

Q. Ont of forty thousand? A. Yes, sir. That’s approxi­
mately, give or take a few, I don’t remember exactly. I 
think there were seventy students left in the all-black 
school which I understand is now closed.

Q. Did you think it necessary in Cobb County to elimi­
nate, in order to achieve a desegregated school system to 
eliminate every all-white school? A. Well, it wouldn’t be 
possible to eliminate all all-white schools because you don’t 
have enough black students to go around.

Q. But you said in order to have a fully desegregated 
school system, you must eliminate every all-white school? 
A. That’s right. Some of them will not be desegregated 
there [35] because there are not that many black students. 
The same is true in Mobile. Now, there are some all-white 
schools in Mobile, too, that we could not avoid because— 
there were also some all-black schools left in Mobile, all 
black and all white both.

Q. Do you think the school desegregation plan that you 
devised and submitted to the court for the Mobile school 
system is the best desegregation plan available for that 
school system? A. I feel that the plan is a workable plan.

Q. That wasn’t what I asked you. A. It’s not the only 
plan that could be devised.

Q. That’s not what I asked you. A. It’s the best plan 
that we could devise at the time.

Q. But do you feel that it is the best plan that could be 
devised for Mobile? A. I don’t know.

Deposition o f Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



497a

Q. I am asking your opinion. A. Well, I  frankly don’t 
know. It was the best I was able to come up with.

Q. It was the best you were able to come up with? A. 
Yes, sir. It was the best that the consultants that I used 
and I were able to come up with.

Q. Do you feel like someone else could come up with a 
better [36] plan? A. I feel like frankly that if the admin­
istration of the school system would work on a plan with 
the aim in mind of eliminating under the same criteria 
we did of fully desegregating all schools, that they prob­
ably would come up with a different plan that would be 
every bit as good or better.

Q. Were there any restrictions on your operations, Mr. 
Jordan, that prevented you from coming up with a better 
plan? You expressed it in terms of the best plan you could 
come up with at the time. What restrictions were there 
that— A. Well, there were no restrictions. I think the 
school system’s position was that they couldn’t do the type 
work we were doing. I  can appreciate their position. 
Frankly, I would have preferred, when we were sitting 
there drawing lines and changing maps, to have had Mr. 
McPherson and a few of his personnel there helping us 
change the lines.

Q. Was there any restriction from the standpoint of 
time? Did you have all the time you needed? A. Time was 
a factor. The time was very limited and we had to work 
night and day.

Q. If you had had more time, do you think you might 
have done a better or a more thorough job? A. We could 
have gotten more in depth in curriculum and other [37] edu­
cational factors. Whether we would have come up with a 
better plan, I don’t know.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



498a

Q. You don’t think then any more time would have helped 
yon? Yon are satisfied that yon had sufficient time to do 
the job that you did? A. We had sufficient time based on 
doing just a desegregation plan. Now, we did not have 
time to make correlating studies that you could make that 
would support the overall plan. We did not get deeply 
into curriculum. Had there been more time, we would have 
made an effort to meet with the curriculum people and—

Q. But you didn’t need any more time to handle the de­
segregation part of it, you had sufficient time and used 
sufficient time to do that? A. We put in enough manhours 
to make that sufficient by working night and day and week­
ends and Sundays and every other day.

Q. To have had another week or another month of time 
would have been of no assistance to you? A. I don’t know 
that it would have materially changed the plan, no, sir. 
I can’t project what we would have done in another week.

Q. You were talking about your single grade schools 
being a part of a complex. What complex is the Hillsdale 
School a part of? [38] A. I would have to look at the 
maps.

Q. All right. Let me refresh your memory. Hillsdale 
School is in the western part of town. A. Yes, it’s in the—

Q. The very extreme western edge, almost on the City 
limits in the western section. A. Yes, I know where it is 
but I don’t recall the names of the other schools right near 
there.

Q. But it is part of a complex? If you will show me 
which complex it is a part of? A. Yes, sir. We were think­
ing of this being a whole high school complex, this being 
a whole, no, I mean elementary, junior high complex or 
middle school complex.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



499a

Q. All right. Now, you say “ this” and you are waving 
your hand around the map. A. Scarborough, Hillsborough 
and Azalea Road.

Q. Scarborough, Hillsdale and Azalea Road being a 
junior high complex ? A. Right, and the same thing with 
Trinity Gardens, Prichard, Mobile Training and Clarke. 
I ’m sorry I can’t recall those names from memory.

Q. That’s all right. I can’t either sometimes. Now, in 
formulating your attendance areas did you draw the lines 
on a non- [39] racial basis or on a basis taking race into 
account? A. We took race into account.

'Q. Now, Mr. Jordan, in your efforts to provide compen­
satory education, and you may want to refresh yourself 
from your maps, is there any area where you bussed stu­
dents to provide this compensatory education that involved 
anything other than taking groups of negro students and 
bussing them? A. Well, I think the term “ to provide com­
pensatory education” is not exactly right. To provide 
better education than they are getting now.

Q. I was just using your term and Dr. Hall’s term. I 
just wanted you to tell me if there was any instance where 
you—and you said you were bussing them to provide this 
compensatory education, and I wanted to know if there 
was any area or any group of students that you are pro­
viding this compensatory education for other than bussing 
groups of negro students? A. No, sir. Well now, wait a 
minute. That may not be exactly true. In the County sec­
tion—

Q. I am talking about in the urban portion of the system 
and I wasn’t attempting to cross you up on that. A. All 
right.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



500a

Mr. Philips: Let’s take a break for a few minutes.

(Recess.)

[40] Q. Mr. Jordan, are yon familiar with any provisions 
of the Civil Rights Act that prohibit the bussing of stu­
dents on a racial basis, for racial purposes! A. Yes, sir.

Q. And do you feel that the plan you submitted to the 
court is in violation of that or consistent with that! A. 
I have no idea.

Q. You have no idea! A. The court order, as I saw it, 
asked that the schools be desegregated.

Q. Did you consider the court order as requiring you to 
do this consistent with applicable provisions of law and 
Congressional Acts! A. Well, I didn’t know. I didn’t know, 
so we put it in as a recommendation with the statement 
that it would have to be up to the legal authorities to 
determine whether it was legal or not. Frankly, I didn’t 
know. The consultants that we used couldn’t see any way 
other than that to achieve full, so we put it in with the 
statement that it would have to be up to the lawyers and 
the court to determine whether that was legal or not.

Q. Are you familiar with any Congressional enactment 
in the Appropriations law which provides no part of the 
funds contained [41] in this act may be used to force 
bussing of students in violation of any school or to force 
any student attending any elementary or secondary school 
to attend a particular school against the choice of his or 
her parents in order to overcome racial imbalance! A. 
Yes, sir, I have read that.

Q. What is that! A. Sir!

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



501a

Q. What is it, where is it contained? A, I don’t know 
the exact number or anything. I have a copy of what yon 
have just read.

Q. Where is it, a Congressional enactment, or what is 
it? A. It came ont of the Federal Register so I assume 
that it’s a Congressional enactment. I ’m not positive.

Q. Did you feel in your interpretation of the court order 
and your development of a plan for the Mobile school 
system, did you feel bound to adhere to this Congressional 
enactment? A. We felt that we should obey the court order 
and developed the plan as near as possible to the court 
order, stating that we were uncertain as to its legality and 
leaving it to the court to make the decision. I couldn’t 
anticipate what the court had in mind.

Q. Did you state that you were uncertain as to the le­
galities [42] of this particular enactment in the plan? A. 
No, sir, I didn’t know. No, we said that-—

Q. Your statement of uncertainty only dealt with bussing, 
didn’t it? A. Right.

Q. So you didn’t make any qualifying statement of un­
certainty with reference to these other things? A. No, sir.

Q. Did you take them into account at all in the plan? 
A. No, sir. We just simply tried to develop the plan as we 
saw it around the court order.

Q. And that is based on your interpretation, without any 
legal interpretation? A. Yes, sir, my interpretation and 
Dr. Anrig’s interpretation.

Q. What did you draw on in your interpretation? A. 
Sir?

Q. What did you draw on, what information, what knowl­
edge did you draw on in interpreting the decree? A. We

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



502a

just simply read it and tried to follow it as we understood 
what we read.

Q. You didn’t attempt to interpret it in the light of any 
outside information at all? A. No, sir.

[43] Q. Just the bare paper there before you? A. Yes, 
sir.

Q. How many personnel, how many men do you have in 
your office, Mr. Jordan? A. In my personal office?

Q. Yes, working with you or under you in your area of 
responsibility. A. Let’s see. We just brought on a new 
man Monday and counting myself and the new man we 
brought on Monday, I have ten.

Q. And how many school systems are you presently work­
ing with in compliance with these court orders to prepare 
these— A. With these court orders?

Q. Yes. A. Well, the count may be different today than 
what it was yesterday because I haven’t seen the mail and 
I think some more have come in, but as of yesterday we 
had twenty-five in South Carolina, five in Georgia, four 
in Alabama, and thirty-two in Mississippi.

Q. Were all of these—you are working on all of these 
at the same time you are working on Mobile? A. No, sir, 
not all of them. We were working on some of them, not 
all of them, no.

Q. All of them were in your office under your jurisdic­
tion at [44] that time? A. Yes, sir. Of course, we weren’t 
using just the ten people in this office. We were using con­
sultants from throughout as we did in Mobile. Now, that 
count may be different, as I say, today than it was yester­
day.

Mr. Philips: I have no further questions.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



503a

O n C r o ss  E xa m in a tio n  b y  M r . G o r m a n :

Q. Now, Mr. Jordan, with respect to your conversations 
with lawyers from the Justice Department concerning the 
Mobile plan, you mentioned that you talked to me about 
this plan. Just when did you talk with me concerning this? 
A. Last night.

Q. For about how long, do you remember! A. As I re­
call, it was about an hour.

Q. Did you talk to me at any time previous to that about 
the proposed plan for the Mobile system? A. No, only on 
the telephone the day before about changing the date that 
I was to be here.

Q. I see. And at that time did I call you to ask if the 
deposition, if you had received a request to be deposed? 
A. Yes.

Q. And did you at that time tell me that it would be 
much more [45] convenient for you if—

Mr. Philips: I think you are leading a little too 
much.

Mr. Gorman: Well, this is cross examination.
Mr. Philips: I realize it’s cross examination but 

it’s not an adverse witness and don’t lead him.
Mr. Gorman: Well, I think I am entitled to on 

cross examination.
And did you—what request did you make of me at 

that time?

A. Well, yesterday we were, I had a meeting in Mobile 
with about eighteen people, consultants coming in from 
various parts of the country that we were setting up 
work to begin in the Mississippi court cases. They were

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



504a

all arriving yesterday morning and it would have been 
most inconvenient to me not to be able to meet them and 
form the teams and get them started out on the road, so 
I asked you if you could get me changed until today, but 
if you couldn’t, that I would appear and, Mr. Philips, I 
appreciate that.

Mr. Philips: I am glad to accommodate you. My 
whole purpose in going into that is not to show that 
you were not cooperative in appearing but simply 
to show that any pleas that you had in that regard, 
you immediately turned to the Justice Department 
rather than somebody else.

Q. Now, in addition to the Mobile plan, have you worked 
on other [46] school, developing desegregation plans for 
other school systems? A. Yes, sir.

Q. About how many plans have you worked on of this 
nature? A. You mean by myself alone?

Q. Well, that you have directly worked on either by your­
self or with some assistance from other people. A. Well, 
I suppose I have been involved in developing plans for 
fifty school systems at least at this point, court orders and 
otherwise.

Q. About how many of those fifty were either you or 
your office brought into by way of court orders—that is, 
orders that directed H.E.W. to provide systems? A. I be­
lieve twenty-one approximately. I can only be approximate 
on these figures. I can’t be exact. I would have to dig out 
the records on those.

Q. Of these approximately twenty-one systems, have you, 
how many plans have actually been submitted either to the 
school boards or to the courts? A. Have been submitted?

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



505a

Q. Yes, sir. A. Oh, they all have been submitted.
Q. And have some of these plans been adopted by the 

school sys- [47] terns without a direct court order to adopt 
them? A. Well, in the court order districts in South Caro­
lina which were the first ones we worked on, out of the 
twenty-one court orders the school systems and I sub­
mitted jointly four. We had four plans that we agreed on. 
In the others there were agreements to varying degrees 
and they are still in the process of being heard. Of the 
ones that we have done that did not involve court orders, 
I am trying to remember now, Tift County in Georgia, 
Twiggs County in Georgia, are a couple that we worked on 
at the invitation of the superintendents that they adopted 
that were not court orders. Valdosta is another one we 
have recently completed. I don’t know whether the board 
has adopted it yet or not. The superintendent seems to 
think they would. I don’t know whether they have yet or 
not.

Q. As an educator do you believe that if transportation 
of students is necessary in order to provide a desegregated 
education or learning environment for students, that such, 
the value, the educational value of obtaining a desegre­
gated learning environment outweighs any inconvenience 
or educational problems with such transportation? A. It is 
my belief that desegregated education is better than segre­
gated education, and if we have to do some bussing to 
achieve that, I think it’s better.

[48] Q. That is outside of any compensatory educational 
advantages it might have for particular students ? A. Stu­
dents, research has shown that students achieve better in 
a desegregated setting.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



506a

Q. Now, did the plan you proposed rule out the possi­
bility of transfers for educational reasons, tranfer of stu­
dents? A. I am not sure I understand that.

Q. All right. In the plan that you proposed Mr. Philips 
asked you whether or not you believed that transfers for 
non-racial reasons, educational reasons, were desirable for 
any school system. Now, does the plan that you propose 
rule out the possibility of any such transfers? A. Well, I 
am not sure what you mean by educational reasons. I think 
an educational reason is the majority-minority. I think that 
is an educational reason. In addition to that, as I indi­
cated, I think that the other transfers that would be jus­
tified is hardship cases.

Q. Now, in response to Mr. Philips’ questions you in­
dicated that in drawing up the plan that was proposed by 
you and your staff for the Mobile system, that you pri­
marily used the decree which ordered H.E.W.—•

Mr. Philips: His testimony was that he used the 
decree entirely.

Q. Now, did you also use your past experience that you 
have had [49] with formulating desegregation plans for 
other school systems when you worked on this Mobile 
plan? A. Yes, I used what background I have plus the 
background of all the consultants. I felt it necessary to 
have several competent educators with me.

Mr. Gorman: I have no further questions. Do 
you have anything further?

Mr. Philips: Just a very few.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



507a

O n R e -D ir e c t  E xa m in a tion  b y  M r . P h il ip s :

Q. You said that in your philosophy that a desegregated 
education is superior to a segregated education, I believe 
you said. How long have you had that philosophy? A. 
Well, I don’t know exactly when I first, when the Civil 
Rights Act of ’64 was when I first began to read on it. 
I  was greatly impressed by Dr. Morrill Weinberg’s study 
in this field published under Phi Delta Kappa which is 
the professional educators’ fraternity. Dr. Weinberg, I 
don t know him personally, of course, but I have read his 
reports over a period of years and of several thousand 
schools, made quite a research into the area of education 
and desegregation, and his conclusion on that study was 
that students, that disadvantaged students—-

Q. Now, I am not asking for his opinion. I am asking 
for • [50] A. Well, those are my opinions based on his 
studies.

Q. How long have you had—you have had that philos­
ophy then since 1964? A. Well, I have had that philos­
ophy, I can’t give you a date. I have had it for several 
years.

Q. Well, give me a date as near as you can, within a 
year?

Mr. Gorman: He just said that he couldn’t give 
you a given time.

Mr. Philips: Well, I think he can.

A. Well, it’s something that evolves as you go along. You 
change, educational theories and practices change as you 
move along.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



508a

Q. Has it been since the Civil Eights Act of 1964? A. 
Yes, sir. That brought it to a head. That is when we first 
began to critically examine the situation.

Q. Now, you mentioned, I have forgotten, I can’t re­
member the man who made the study, are you familiar— 
what is the name of the man whose study you referred 
to as influencing your thinking? A. Dr. Weinberg.

Q. Dr. Weinberg? Are you familiar with any other 
studies in this field? A. Yes, sir, Dr. Coleman’s report.

Q. Do you agree or disagree with the Coleman report? 
A. I agree.

[51] Q. Entirely? A. I think so. I don’t recall any 
particular point that I disagree.

Q. Is it inconsistent in any respect with Dr. Weinberg’s 
study? A. Yes, sir.

Q. It is inconsistent? A. It is consistent. They reached 
similar conclusions.

Q. There is no inconsistency in the Coleman report and 
the Weinberg report? A. Well, if you—I am not com­
petent to answer that question. Their conclusions are 
similar.

Q. Okay. Are you familiar with any studies on this 
subject by Dr. Vanderhaag of Fordham University? A. 
No, sir.

Q. Are you familiar with any study or any writings on 
this subject by Dr. Hill, President of Peabody College? A. 
I have read articles of his. I am not familiar with his 
detailed studies.

Q. All right. Do you think his studies and his philoso­
phies and his writings— A. I am not familiar enough 
with Dr. Hill’s philosophy to know exactly what his philos­
ophy is.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



509a

Q. Do you consider Mm an authority in this field? [52] 
A. I do not know Dr. Hill personally.

Q. Do you consider him an authority in this field? A. I 
do not know. I am not certain. I know the name, that is 
all.

Q. How about Dr. Yanderhaag, do you consider him to 
be an authority in this field? A. Well, I  think he is 
recognized as an authority by many educators.

Q. Do you recognize him as an authority?

Mr. Gorman: He has just testified that he doesn’t 
know Dr.—

A. Well, I am not familiar enough with that particular 
study to—

Q. I was asking about Dr. Vanderhaag. We had dis­
cussed Dr. Hill previously. I am asking you—you said 
many considered Dr. Vanderhaag an authority and I am 
asking you if you consider him an authority. A. I don’t 
know enough about his work. I would assume so, yes, sir. 
I  am not familiar enough with his writings to know.

Q. Now, you said you have this philosophy that a de­
segregated education is superior to a segregated educa­
tion. What is a desegregated education? A. It is edu­
cation in a school that does not have racial identifiability. 
I  think if we are going to live in a desegregated [53] so­
ciety, then I think it is extremely important that our chil­
dren go to desegregated schools.

Q. What is your thinking on resegregation? Suppose 
you set up an absolutely perfect desegregation plan, then 
it operates into resegregation. Do you think you must

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



510a

then re-do your desegregation plan to desegregate again? 
A. Well, of course, if a plan results in resegregation, your 
problems are still great. Hopefully the best solution is 
to try to devise a plan that will not create that situation. 
I don’t know whether this one does or not. Hopefully it 
does not, but if a school system resegregates after de­
segregation, then, of course, it has a continuing problem.

Q. And you think the best thing to do to begin with is 
to try to devise a plan that would not tend to result in re­
segregation? A. Yes, sir. If you could devise a plan 
that would effectively desegregate every school, then it 
would not be as likely to resegregate as it would if 
some were desegregated and others weren’t.

Q. Suppose it did resegregate, you have only told us 
that you would have a continuing problem. We are quite 
aware of that. What we want to know from you, the ex­
pert, is what would you do when they resegregated? [54] 
A. I think that would depend on the circumstances and 
on the court order and what the situation was. I don’t 
think I could give a general answer. This is a problem 
that the City of Atlanta is wrestling with now. They 
went through a desegregation process and a resegrega­
tion process. They are now seeking ways to overcome this, 
and I think each system would have to be taken indepen­
dently.

Q. Okay. You mentioned some counties in Georgia that 
you had worked on desegregation plans without the benefit 
of court order, Tift County, Twiggs County, and Valdosta 
which I assume is a city system. A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would you name the others? A. I don’t recall, Mr. 
Philips. I could dig it out of my records and send you 
a list of them.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969



511a

Q. Would you do that? A. Yes, sir. I  don’t recall the 
exact those are ones that I personally worked on but 
our office has worked on a number.

Q. If you would send me all of those, a list of all of 
those, I would be grateful. A. All right. I will have to 
have time to do it, though. I ’ve got to go to Mississippi. 
I am not exactly positive of the date I will get them here, 
but I will do it.

[55] Q. All right. Perhaps you can call someone in your 
office and get them to do it. A. There’s no one in my 
office. They are all in Mississippi. That’s where I ’m fixing 
to be.

Deposition of Jesse J. Jordan on July 16, 1969

Mr. Philips: Okay. I think that is all. I don’t 
have anything else. Thank you very much, Mr. Jor­
dan.

*  #  #



512a

It is difficult for one unschooled in the field of education 
to implement a plan to operate the Mobile County Public 
School System in any fashion, but I am confronted with 
doing just that in what I hope will be a practical and 
workable way within the law.

The Supreme Court and the Court of Appeals have inter­
preted the law. We may agree with their interpretation or 
not, but we must follow it.

In approaching this task, which is without doubt the most 
difficult as well as important that I have ever encountered, 
I have called upon any and every source at my command 
for assistance.

The Department of Health, Education and Welfare, with 
inadequate time, has filed a plan with which I can agree 
in part and disagree in part. It contains some provisions 
which I think are both impractical and educationally un­
sound. HEW readily acknowledges that this plan is not 
perfect and invites the School Board to suggest improve­
ments. |The School Board has filed absolutely no plan for 
the assistance of J3ue_cpurt.)t The professional staff of the 
Mobile Public School System did, as authorized by the 
School Board, work with HEW in attempting to formulate 
such a plan, but their efforts did not meet with the ap­
proval of the School Board. The court has the benefit of 
such work, but wishes to make it clear that such was never 
approved by the School Board, though the end results in 
many areas were substantially in accord with HEW.

With eight years of litigation, entailing countless days 
and weeks of hearings in court, it has been clearly estab­
lished that the Mobile County School System must forth-

District Court Order of August 1, 1969



513a

D istr ic t  C o u rt O rd er o f  A u g u s t  1, 1969

with be operated in accordance with the law of the land. 
What this school system needs is to educate children legally, 
and not to engage in protracted litigation. After all, the 
children aie the ones in whom we should be most inter­
ested. With this in m in^j; get to the business at hand.

The plan filed l^ l lE W j-SlIs for its implementation by 
the beginning of the 1969-70 school term of all rural schools 
and all metropolitan areas west of Interstate Highway 65.

.. ^ clearly states that its plan for all metropolitan areas 
_east of 1-65 cannot possibly be implementedH3eforTlhe~ 

school Term."Inthii^thecourt'is in complete aareeT
ment.

As to the rural schools and all metropolitan areas west 
of 1-65, the Court Orders, A djudges and Decrees the fol­
lowing plan under which the Mobile County School System 
will operate, beginning with the school term of 1969-70:

I.

Attendance area zones for all rural schools of the Sys­
tem, elementary, junior high and high schools, are directed 
in accordance with maps hereto attached, marked Exhibits 
1, 2 and 3.

II.

Attendance area zones for the metropolitan schools lo­
cated west of 1-65, elementary, junior high and high schools, 
are directed in accordance with maps hereto attached, 
marked Exhibits 4, 5 and 6.

IH.

Attendance area zones for the metropolitan elementary 
and junior high schools located ea st of Interstate Highway



514a

65 shall be the identical zones as those utilized for the past 
school year, 1968-69.

IV.

The metropolitan senior high schools located east of In­
terstate Highway 65, including the Toulminville High 
School, shall operate under the freedom of choice desegre­
gation plan and each student shall attend the school which 
was selected during the recent choice period of May, 1969; 
however, every senior high school student living west of 
Interstate Highway 65 must attend the senior high school 
serving his attendance area, notwithstanding the student’s 
choice to attend a high school located east of Interstate 
Highway 65.

V.

I The court is not satisfied with the Plan set out by HEW 
__ for the metropolitan schools lying east of 1-65 for"Imple­

mentation tor tne 1570-71 school term. /The court knows" * VI.
that further study will resu lF lna  far better and more 
practical, as well as legal, plan.

VI.

The School Board is hereby ordered to file with the court, 
not later than December 1, 1969, a suggested desegrega­
tion plan for all of the metropolitan schools located east 
of 1-65. This plan shall be formulated by the School Board 
in consideration of the mandate of the Fifth Circuit Court 
of Appeals of June 3,1969 and after further study and col­
laboration with HEW officials. The School Board is hereby 
ordered to file a detailed progress report to the court on

District Court Order of August 1, 1969



515a

October 10, 1969 and November 20, 1969 outlining the steps 
taken in formulating the plan.

The court fervently hopes that the decree herein entered 
and the plan of December 1, 1969 will end further litigation 
for the public school system of Mobile County.

VII.

F aculty

For the 1969-70 school term and subsequent years, the 
faculty of each school, including the principals, teachers, 
teacher’s aides, and other staff members who work directly 
with the children, shall have a racial composition not iden­
tifiable as a school for negro or white students.

For the upcoming year, the School Board shall assign, 
as far as is educationally feasible, the staff described above 
so that the racial composition of each school’s faculty shall 
reflect substantially, the racial composition of the teachers 
in the entire school system.

Staff members who work directly with children, and pro­
fessional staff who work on the administrative level, shall 
be hired, assigned, promoted, paid, demoted, dismissed and 
otherwise treated without regard to race, color, or national 
origin, except to the extent necessary to erase segregation.

If there is to be a reduction in the number of principals, 
teachers, teacher-aides or other professional staff employed 
by the school district, which will result in a dismissal or 
demotion of any such staff members, the staff member to be 
dismissed or demoted must be selected on the basis of 
objective and reasonable non-discriminatory standards 
from among all the staff of the school district. In addition, 
if there is any such dismissal or demotion, no staff vacancy

District Court Order of August 1, 1969



516a

may be filled through recruitment of a person of a race, 
color, or national origin different from that of the indi­
vidual dismissed or demoted, until each displaced member 
who is qualified has had an opportunity to fill the vacancy 
and has failed to accept an offer to do so.

“Demotion” as used above includes any reassignment (1) 
under which the staff member receives less pay or has less 
responsibility than under the assignment he held previ­
ously, (2) which requires a lesser degree of skill than did 
the assignment he held previously, or (3) under which the 
staff member is asked to teach a subject or grade other 
than one for which he is certified or for which he has had 
substantial experience within a reasonably current period. 
In general and depending upon the subject matter involved, 
five years is such a reasonable period.

VIII.

The Toulminville School for the year 1969-70 is to be 
operated in the same grade level as it was last year.

IX.

The five per cent transfer provision for children of minor­
ity groups set out in the court’s plan of last year is com­
pletely deleted.

X.

P ublic Notice

The School Board shall publish or cause to have pub­
lished in the local newspaper, the complete text of this 
decree and the maps, identified as Exhibits 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 
and 6, to this court’s decree. The decree and maps shall

District Court Order of August 1, 1969



517a

be published once a day for three consecutive days, alter­
nating the morning and evening editions of the newspaper. 
In addition, the School Board shall post or cause to be 
posted in a conspicuous place in each school in the System, 
and at the offices of the School Board, copies of the map 
outlining the particular school’s area attendance zone. This 
notice provision also applies to those elementary and junior 
high schools, east of 1-65, which shall operate under last 
year’s attendance area zones.

Dated: August 1, 1969.

District Court Order of August 1, 1969

/ s /  Daniel H. Thomas

[Maps omitted. See original record]



518a

School Board Report to the Court Filed 
November 26, 1969

Come now the Defendants, the Board of School Com­
missioners of Mobile County, Et al, and file herewith the 
reports of information required by the court to he filed 
in the court on or before November 26, 1969 (being the 
same reports as paragraph VI of the court’s order of May 
13, 1968). The reports are attached hereto.



519a

School Board Report to the Court Filed November 26, 1969
ENROLLMENT RE PORT

MOBILE OOUiTI'Y lil!JL.IC SCHOOLS
(2a sed on. Net Enrollment _ cSept:. 26, :1.969)

SCHOOLS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 TOTAL

Adams White 38 42 36 54 42 234 240 686
Negro 28 30 31 36 29 75 82 311
Total 66 72 67 90 71 309 322 997

A lb 3 White 100 110 141 119 124 149 171 134 150 119 102 95 1514
Negro 9 12. 11 13 13 15 24 26 25 16 20 10 194
Total 109 122 152 132 137 164 195 160 175 135 122 105 1708

Arlington White 60 78 44 58 67 307
Negro 32 47 43 42 53 237
Total 72 125 87 100 120 544

Austin White 64 64 75 67 60 66 396
Negro 4 4 1 . 3 8 2 22
Total 68 68 76 70 68 68 418

Azalea Road White 500 539 1039
Negro 19 19 38
T ota l 519 558 1077

Baker White 55 60 63 70 82 64 114 133 96 87 78 67 969
Negro 9 8 8 8 7 10 9 14 11 4 5 4 97
Total 64 6 8 71 78 89 74 123 147 107 91 83 71 1066

BeIsaw White 6 9 6 21
Negro 54 73 80 207
Total 60 82 86 228

B ien v ille White 46 43 30 5.6 35 52 262
Negro 42 54 53 49 47 54 299
Total 88 97 83 105 82 106 561

Blount White ____
Negro 454 416 439 284 300 1893
Total 454 416 439 284 300 1893

Brazier White ____
Negro 154 188 181 190 219 191 1123
Total 154 188 181 190 219 191 1123

Brookley White 81 81 84 82 90 81 499
Negro 15 12 5- 18 13 12 75
T ota l 96 93 89 100 103 93 574

Burroughs White 26 37 38 36 27 28 192
Negro 52 46 52 52 37 51 290
Total ‘ 78 83 90 88 64 79 482

Calcedeaver White 25 26 29 30 27 22 159
Negro —
Total 25 26 29 30 27 22 159



520a
School Board Report to the Court Filed November 26,1969

SCHOOLS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 TOTAL

Caldx^ell White
Negro 26 46 58 76 59 49 314
Total 26 46 58 76 59 49 314

Carver White 1 1
Negro 429 428 857
Total 429 429 858

Central White . . . .
Negro 391 434 364 281 1470
Total 391 434 364 281 1470

Chickasaw White 55 77 82 84 98 98 494
Negro 1 1 1 3
Total .55 78 83 84 99 98 497

Child Guid. White 64 64
Negro 20 20
Total 84 84

C itron e lle White 92 112 123 133 133 113 94 800
Negro 18 49 39 66 . 74 80 74 400
Total 110 161 162 199 207 193 168 1200

Clark White 297 353 439 1089
Negro 83 43 77 203
T ota l 380 396 516 1292

Council White __
Negro 96 88 107 91 99 481
Total 96 88 107 91 99 481

Craighead White 77 42 119
Negro 125 280 405
Total 202 322 524

Crichton White 83 89 74 105 79 77 507
Negro 46 40 36 39 36 40 237
Total 129 129 110 144 115 117 744

.Davidson White 636 621 582 463 2302
Negro 24 19 16 13 72
Total 660 640 598 476 2374

Davis White 99 95 92 109 97 99 591
Negro 34 29 25 25 34 31 178
T ota l 133 124 117 134 131 130 769

Dickson White 117 136 149 157 150 126 835
Negro 27 29 43 26 38 30 193
Total 144 165 192 183 188 156 1028



521a

School B o a rd  R e p o t 't to the Court Filed November 26,
- 3 -

1969

SCHOOLS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 TOTAL

Dixon White 41 32 48 46 41 41 249
Negro 32 32 29 35 26 35 189
Total 73 64 77 81 67 76 438

Dodge White 94 101 114 12 2. 109 135 675
Negro 11 8 14 13 12 7 65
Total 105 109 128 135 121 142 740

Dunbar White 2 2
Negro 404 433 837
T otal 406 433 839

Eanes White 323 398 245 966
Negro 35 73 26 134
Total 358 471 271 1100

Eight Mile White 74 43 53 58 64 66 110 118 586
Negro 16 14 12 13 1'2 12 12 19 110
Total 90 57 65 71 76 78 122 137 696

Emerson White 1 1 1 1 4
Negro 43 52 63 81 57 58 354
Total 44 53 64 81 57 59 358

Evans White 54 54
Negro 87 87
Total 141 141

Fonde White 89 108 118 126 118 120 679
Negro 6 4 1 11
Total 95 108 118 130 119 120 690

F onvielle White
Negro 190 199 195 230 180 215 1209
T ota l 190 199 195 230 180 215 1209

Forest H ill White 87 96 108 139 130 560
Negro _
T otal 87 96 108 139 130 560

Glendale White 77 94 80 86 77 94 508
Negro 26 23 25 23 22 30 149
Total 103 117 105 109 99 124 657

Gorgas White 1 1 2
Negro 170 187 204 207 203 182 1153
Total 170 187 204 208 203 183 1155

Grand Bay White 118 105 96 124 92 95 630
Negro 24 19 27 25 29 22 146
Total 142 124 123 149 128 117 776



522a
School Board Report to the Court Filed November 26,1969

SCHOOLS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 TOTAL

Grant White 1 1
Negro 225 244 272 276 257 1274
Total 226 244 272 276 257 1275

Griggs White 132 156 163 138 142 134 865
Negro 7 5 9 7 7 6 41
T ota l 139 161 172 145 149 140 906

Hall White ---
Negro 112 102 120 125 104 123 686
Total 112 102 120 125 104 123 686

Hamilton White 110 103 98 111 102 105 629
Negro » —

T ota l 110 103 98 111 102 105 629

H illsd a le White 123 157 151 431
Negro 51 74 92 217
T otal 174 231 243 648

H oll. Island White 55 70 76 49 80 64 394
Negro 1 1 2
T otal 56 71 76 49 80 64 396

Howard White - - -
Negro 82 79 79 64 68 75 447
Total 82 79 79 64 68 75 447

Ind. Springs White 87 76 83 90 107 77 520
Negro 3 1 2 2 3 1 12
Total 90 77 85 92 110 78 532

Lee White 100 84 89 81 115 469
Negro 26 28 19 20 26 119
Total 126 112 108 101 141 588

Leinkauf White 45 46 29 44 52 52 268
Negro 31 26 28 35 30 27 177
Total 76 72 57 79 82 79 345

Lott White 86 84 106 100 89 465
Negro 23 27 33 40 22 145
Total 109 111 139 140 111 610

Maryvale White 73 92 83 117 97 86 548
Negro 7 13 8 10 11 6 55
T ota l • 80 105 91 127 108 92 603

Mertz White 77 77 78 74 83 72 461
Negro —

Total 77 77 78 74 83 72 461



523a
School Board Report to the Court Filed November 26, 1969

SCHOOLS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 TOTAL

Mo. Co. High White 116 113 105 100 97 71 602
Negro 40 49 55 43 34 30 25i
Total 156 162 160 143 131 101 853

Mo. Co. Trng. White ____
Negro 201 176 205 238 181 149 133 1283
Total 201 176 205 238 181 149 133 1283

Montgomery Wh i  t e 202 231 182 172 787
Negro 11 9 4 6 30
T otal 213 240 186 178 817

Mornings ide White 137. 125 132 123 107 116 740
Negro —
Total 137 125 132 123 107 116 740

ML. Vernon White 20 17 19 15 13 84
Negro 74 53 71 70 . 90 358
Total 94 70 90 85 103 442

Murphy White 490 731 690 691 2602
Negro 69 88 47 35 239
T ota l 559 819 737 726 2841

Old Shell White 34 50 41 27 55 42 249
Negro 14 25 19 16 18 20 112
Total 48 75 60 43 73 62 361

Orchard White 151 131 175 137 160 754
Negro 26 21 20 23 23 113
Total 177 152 195 160 183 867

Owens White . . . .
Negro 158 175 180 179 200 208 1100
Total 158 175 180 179 200 208 1100

Palmer White 9 13 11 12 12 57
Negro 127 124 140 137 146 674
Total 136 137 151 149 158 731

P h illip s White 349 403 752
Negro 67 55 122
Total . 416 458 874

Prichard White 13 107 108 125 353
Negro 21 50 56 43 170
Total 34 157 164 168 523

Rain White 195 234 225 254 232 156 1296
Negro 20 31 15 32 9 5 112
T otal 215 265 240 286 241 161 1403



524a

School Board Report to the Court Filed November 26, 1969

SCHOOLS 1 2 3 4 5

Robbins White 1 2 1 1 1
Negro 147 158 163 177 170
Total 148 160 164 178 171

S t. Elrao White
Negro
Total

Saraland White 118 131 142 139 131
Negro 4 11 3 5 10
Total 122 142 145 144 141

Satsuma White
Negro
Total

Scarborough White
Negro
T ota l

Semmes White 69 76 64 99 ' 69
Negro 1 1
Total 70 76 64 100 69

Shaw White
Negro
Total

Shepard White 39 64 75 79 82
Negro 4 7 4 5 2

Stanton Road

Total 43 71 79 84 84

White
Negro 121 170 169 180 159
Total 121 170 169 180 159

Tanner Wins. White 55 56 67 60 54
Negro 2 2 3 1
T ota l 57 58 67 63 55

Theodore White
Negro
Total

Thomas White 27 44 36 40 33
Negro 19 20 13 18 20
Total ‘ 46 64 49 58 53

Toulm inville White 
Negro 
Total

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 TOTAL

6
815
821

192 244 436
30 24 54

222 268 490

661
33

694

269 297 221 212 151 1150
61 62 71 44 29 267

330 359 292 256 180 1417

181 229 228 638
39 38 77

220 267 228 715

119 246 246 988
11 12 25

119 357 258 1013

355 337 318 232 1242
60 76 47 54 237

415 413 365 286 1479

70 409
7 29

77 438

178 977
178 977

48 340
1 9

49 349

135 127 345 353 287 219 1466
48 59 64 69 54 41 335

183 186 409 422 341 260 1801

42 222
11 101
53 323

443 381 311 1135
443 381 311 1135



525a
School Board Report to the Court Filed November 26, 1969

SCHOOLS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 TOTAL

T rin ity  Gdns .White —

Negro 219 210 196 176 160 123 1084
Total 219 210 196 176 160 123 1084

Vigor White 611 463 430 1504
Negro 113 57 25 195
T otal 724 520 455 1699

Washington White —

Negro 561 534 433 1528
Total 561 534 433 1528

Westlawn White 68 80 89 81 108 90 51.6
Negro
Total 68 80 89 81 108 90 516

Whistler White 27 29 23 73 29 46 227
Negro 31 30 44 62 33 31 231
Total 58 59 67 135 62 77 458

Whitley White —

Negro 70 77 87 85 76 395
Total 70 77 87 85 76 395

W ill White 125 125 142 139 126 657
Negro 31 28 38 33 45 175
Total 156 153 180 172 171 832

Williams White 80 80 84 90 67 96 497
Negro 11 11 9 6 14 9 60
Total 91 91 93 96 81 105 557

Williamson White 1 1
Negro 260 245 245 203 189 1142
Total 260 245 246 203 189 1143

Wilmer White 44 55 53 58 59 64 333
Negro 14 9 9 i i 9 7 59
Total 58 64 62 69 68 71 392

Woodcock White 32 37 40 53 44 33 239
Negro 14 14 20 27 20 24 119
Total 46 51 60 80 64 57 358

GRAND TOTAL White 3232 3421 3554 3877 3626 3497 3647 3927 3843 3799 3356 2841 42620

Negro 2497 2629 2783 3023 2799 2793 2832 2848 2527 2532 1958 1663 308S4

Total 5729 6050 6337 6900 6425 6290 6479 6775 6370 6331 5314 4504 73504



52Ga

EXPLANATION OF COLUMNS SUMMARY OF TEACHER ASSIGNMENTS AN!) VACANCIES 
MOBILE COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS -  MOBILE; ALABAMA

School Board Report to the Court Filed November 26, 1969

Column ( l )  

( 2)

(3 )

(4 )

(5 )

(6) 
(7 ) 

C8) 

(9)

Name o f  school and grade le v e l.

Number o f  teachers assigned for  1969-70 as o f  September 24, 1969,

Number o f  white and non-white teachers assigned. This column 
equals column (2 ) .

This column ind icates number o f  teachers resign ing  between May 30, 
1969 thru August 1969.

Vacancies f i l l e d  by new teachers or tra n sfers .

Vacancies not f i l l e d  as o f  September 24, 1969.

New teachers assigned fo r  1969-70.

Number o f  tra n sfers  received  from schools l is t e d .

Number o f  tra n sfer*  fc© the school© l is t e d .



— 14\RX Cj'* gEACKga ASSIGNMENTS AMD VACANCIES —  MOBILE COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS - 1969-70 - AS OF SSFT5KSSR 24, 1S6S
i££:£l.k ‘No. Teachers 

! Acs:. c>ned
j White 
1

Non-
White

{ Vacancies 
1 Occurred

i T- W /; Vacancies P ilie d  
White j Non-White

_ iw  Present
Vacancies

ho. ftew 
Teachers

i s ;No. Transfers 
From.. .

. r W  3 • i N o.Transfers j
To. . |

(1 -7 ) 

Sec. 6-7

: 69-70 

1 ^
4

16
7
8 
1

1 1 0 i 5 1 Calcedeaver 
6 Satsuma 
4 Lee 
1 W histler

j
1 Blount |
2 Prichard j 
7 Satsuma j

1 26 20 lo 1 Rain H 
1 Washington j

A ' b a  <1-12}
21
37

16
33

5
4

8 5 3 3
7

3 S t. Elmo
4 Dixon

5

3 Dixon I 
1 Grant j

W ------- - - 1 .  ~ ■
59

'

49 10 1 Griggs
.L ijO».t i
l Emerson j 
1 Davidson 
1 Grand Bay | 
1 Burroughs j

1
.

16 13 3 3 2 i 1 1 F on v ie lle  
1 Woodcock

i
Nona ' |

|
■ !

1-6 13 10 3 i 1 1 1 B razier 
1 Orchard

1 Calcedeaver

1
!

‘ i f  i 40 35
1

5 5 2 3 2
1 Semmes
2 S t. Elmo

1 H illsd a le  
1 T rin ity  Garde.As

- . i------—r
41 36 5 ” 1 Washington 

1 Adams
1 Helping Teachur

__________

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SI" MARY OF TEACHER ASSIGNMENTS AND VACANCIES -- MOBILE COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS - 1969-70 - AS OF SEPTEMBER 24, IVW

School lo .  Teachers White 3Ton- Vacancies Vacancies F illd d Present No. New No. Transfers N o.Transfers j
Assigned White Occurred White Non-White Vacancies Teachers From .. . To. . .  1
69-70 1

Baker (1 -12)
Elen:. 1-5 11 10 i : 5 5 c 1 6 1 Lee 1 Tanner Wms, |
Sec. 6-12 27 25 2 1 Hamilton 1 Shaw
Spec. Ed. 2 2 ' . i 1 Dunbar

40 37 3

BsdLsaw
1

Sac. 6-8 9 2 7 0 0 0 0 1 Calcedeaver 5 Mt. Vernon l
1 Mt. Vernon 2 B ie n v ille  |

3 L ott !
1 Dodge

f

B ie n v ille
■ 1 i\

21£3. 1-6 17 11 6 4 ' 1 1 2 Belsaw 1 Eanes

....
1 W hitley 1 W hitley

Blount 1 Toulvainville 1 Voc.Rehab.
Sec. 8-12 69 67 5 1 3 2 1 Central 1 Rain
Spec. Ed, 1 2 1 . 1 L ott 2 V igor

70 “ 68 2 Murphy

B razier 1 Chickasaw 1 H ollin gers I s !
E lea. 1-6 35 3 32 2 1 1 i 1 Calcedeaver 1 Austin

1 Mt„ Vernon 1 Wilmer
.......... . _ __ ______  . _ ___ _ . ___

.
'

1_________L_
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l r  'ok ley

[ Assigned
Whirs

15

T 5

"•JS
f V c n -

White
, (4 ) 

Vacancies 
Occurred

Vacai 
Whi te

4

(5 ) , 
acres F ille d  

Non-White
{6}Present

Vacancies
„ O i .No. New 
Teachers

(8)
No. Transfers 

From.. .
i?) .No. aranstars 

To. . .
I 69-70
i

17

13"

2
1
3

4 2
1 Owens 
1 Fonde 
1 Burroughs

1 T it le  X 
Helping Tea.

i - ; ; :  w :
15 

1
16

10
0

■ 10

5 
1-
6

0 0 0 i
2 Davis
1 Shepard
2 Griggs 
1 Davis 
1 Dodge
1 M obile Co. High

1 Brooklay 
1 Alba
1 Griggs
2 Davis
1 F onvislla

Elem. i -6 • 5 3 a ■ 3 1 0 0 1 Austin 1 Cl Crenelle 
1 Satsuava 
1 BeIsaw 
1 Adams 
1 B razier ..

C alevel!
-  -era. 1-6 
Epee. Ed.

—

12
~ v r

1
. 0 

1

in

I F *

0 0 0 0 1 Mt. Vernon

34 2 32 0 0 . 0 0 1 Alba 1 Washington 
1 Craighead

1
j

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SUMMARY OF TEACHER ASSIGNMENTS AND VACANCIES — MOBILE COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS - 1969-70 - AS OF SEPTEMBER 24?
(1 ) (2 ) (3 ) (4 ) <5)1 . . -  (6) (7 )

No. New
(8)

No. Transfers No .tra n s fe rsSchool 'Jo. Teachers White Non- : Vacancies Vacancies F ille d Present.
White: Occurred White NonrWhite Vacancies Teachers From .. . T o .. .

69-70 ■ !

Central 1 Theodore 1 Blount
Sec. 9-12 56 2 54 , 10 i 3 1 4 1 Rain
Spec. Ed. 2 0 2 1 Vigor

58 2 56 1 Murphy

Chickasaw 1 W hitley 1 B razier
Elenw 1-6 15 12 3 3 0 3. 1

' "

1 Clark 2 lit. Vernon
S e c .-6-12- 46 30 16 4 • 2 0 5 1 Satsuma 10 L ott
Spec. Ed. i 1 0 ~ 1 Calcedeaver 1 Semmes

47 31 16 13 L ott
* 1 Semmes 

1 Lee
. . _  . . .  .

K, J . Clerk 1 Dunbar 1 Rain ' *.
Sec. 7-9 47 43 4 9 3 0 8 1 Dunbar
Spec. Ed. 2 2 0 " - 2 M obile Co.Trn.

49 . 45 4 1 P h ill ip s  
1 C itron s lie
1 Scarborough 
1 H illsd a le  
1 Eanes

Council 1 Williams
Elea. 1-5 14 3 11 3 3 0 3 1 Tanner Wms* 

1 Grand Bay

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SIK'-ARY OF TEACHER ASSIGNMENTS AND VACANCIES -- MOBILE COIMTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS - 1969-70 - AS OF SSKTggggJj^, J-9o9

<, 1 | (2 )
Jo. Teachers

<
White Non- Vacancies Vacancies F ille d Present No. New No. Transfers N o.Transfers

----------- ! White Non-White Vacancies Teachers From.. . To. , .

1 69-70
1 M obile Co. High

C;,‘" | 21 i x ' 10 5 3 i 2 1 Carver
Soec. Ed. | 3 2 1 . .. 1 S t. Elmo

1 24 13 u

| _____ ________ ____________ ......--- ------- -- --------
*-----------------------------

21 17 4 2 1 0 i 1 Emerson 1 Dickson
Spec. Ed. 2 2 - -

23 19 4 ___ _______________ —
1 Ind. Sprs.

Davidson 1 Theodore ■
92 85 7 18 12 2 i 14 1 Alba -

2 Satsuma
1 Blount
1 M obile Co. Trng

__________________

2 Helping Teacher 3 1 Burroughs
Elera. 1-6 22 19 3 3 2 i 1 2 Burroughs
Soes. Ed. 1 J. 0 - —

23 20 3 __________ _______ / _______ —
S H illsd a le

29 23 6 1 i 0 i 1 1 Crichton
Spec. Ed. 1 1 ■ - 1 Howard

30 23 7

5 Alba 4 Alba
13 8 5 0 0 0 1 1 WestXawn 1 Grand Bay

1 P h ill ip s

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SUA-ARY OF TEACHER ASSIGNMENTS ANT) VACANCIES —  MOBILE COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS - 1969-70 - AS OF SEPTEMBER 24, 19fc9



sumach of TEACHER ASSIGNMENTS AND VACANCIES — MOB I LE COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS 1969-70 -  AS OF SEPTEMBER 24, 1969 .
<I) (2 / (35 <4) (5 ) (6 ) (7 ) (8 );• r r : e 1 -• - : oacners White Non- Vacancies Vacancies F ille d Present No. New No. Transtera No.Trans rare !

Aff*i&ncd White Occurred Whi te Non-White Vacancies Teachers From.. . T o . , .  __ \
65-70 i

£lem. 1-6 35 i 34 0 0 0 i 1 Burroughs
)

1 A rlin gton  $
£.a» 5 0 3 _ I

36 i 37 I
-----  _ \

1 Semmes 1 P h ill ip s  !
-rr*' * / 15 2 4 3 i 2 1 Calvert 3

•>pec. Ed. X 0 1 !
18 •15 3 i

.'lerdale
v

1 Grand Bay
i

1 W hitley {
1-6 19 14 s 5 2 3 0 .2 Robbins f

_ 1 Grant — -----------

El era. 1-6 34 1 33 0 0 0 0 1 Scarborough

j

£r2nd Bay 1 M obile Co. High 1 Glendalet -e a . 1-6 23 • 19 4 6 3 3 5 2 Dixon 1 M obile Co-Hi.
1 Council

£11 a Grant. 1 Alba 1 Leinkauf
~ - -rr!» j 37 3 34 1 1 0 2 1 ToulminvilXe 1 GlendaleipcC , td . 3 0 3

40 3 37

1 Burroughs 1 M obile Co.High

.
27 22 5 6 1 3 2 2 Dawes Union 2 Burroughs

----- -----------------

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SUiS-iARY OF TEACHER ASSIGNMENTS AND VACANCIES —  MOBILE COUHYY PUBLIC SCHOOLS - 1969-70 - AS OF SEPTEMBER 2U, 1969

School

Hall
E lea. 1-6 
Spec. Ed.

No. Teachers 
Assigned

White..

2
0

"TJon-
White

Vacancies
Occurred

Vacan
White

c ie s  F ille d  
Non-White

Present
Vacancies

No. New 
Teachers

No. Transfers 
From.. .

N o.Transfers 
T o . . .

69-70

20
1

18
1

2 i
!

i  1
. I

i 1 Morningside 1 Maryvale

21 2 19 i

Ĥ ir.i 1 con 
Elea. 1-6

.

13 15 3 \ 0

i
1

1  !
i 2

1 Owens 1 Baker 
1 T it le  1

Helping Tea, j

H illsd a le  
Sec. 6-3 
S'Dec. Ed.

26
l

15
0

11
1

2 - 1  ,
' i ■ 

o . 1 3
1 Murphy 
4 Scarborough 
1 Azalea Road

3 Orchard 
5 W ill 
5 Dickson

27 15 1 2  •

, ' |

1 K. J, Clark 
1 Davidson 
1 Alba 
1 Prichard

1 Prichard

i i 10 5. 3 1 i
i

2
1 Helping Tea.
3 S t, Elmo

..... . .......... 1

Howard
*■ .p 1 - 6 15 1 14 1 0 0 0 -

j
1 H ollingars Isli 
1 Dickson

Indian Springs • 
Elea. 1-6 u 14 2 3 3 0 4

1 Semsnea 1 Dodge i 
1 Davidson .

.
.

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S tm U tY  OF TEACHER ASSIGNMENTS ANP VACANCIES —  MOBILE COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS -  1969-70 - AS OF SEPTEMBER 24-? 1969
535a

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SSjMMARy OF TEACHER ASSIGNMENTS AND VACANCIES —  MOBILE COUHTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS - 1969-70 - AS OF gPTEMBER ?.!?, 5-969
( 1)

S ch ool

M obile County 
Sec. 6-12 
Spec. Ed.

( 2)
No. Teachers 

Assigned

Trd
69-70

50
2

52

White mUon-
Whlte

44
2

46

(4)
Vacancies
Occurred

(5 )
Vacancies F ille d  

White Non-White
n (6) Present 

Vacancies

(7)No. New 
Teachers

(8)
No. Transfers 

From .. .

1 Eanes
2 Clark 
1 V igor 
1 Adams
6 W hitley

(?)N o.Transfers

1 Davidson 
1 Shaw 
1 Satsums

Montgomery 
Sec. 5-12

Morr.ingside 
Eiem. 1-6

:rpny High

Soec. Ed.

31

23

13

no
3

113

28
1 Semmes 
1 Dunbar 
1 Washington

1 Murphy

22 3 . I Wesfclawn 1 Hall

100

102

10
1

11

2 C itron e lle  
1 Saraland 
5 Belsaw 
1 Caldwell

1 B razier 
1 Belsaw

12
1 Dunbar 1 Dunbar
1 Theodore 1 P rin cip a l »
2 Blount Calcecte&ver
1 Lott 1 Washington
1 Montgomery 1 T it le  X
1 Semmes Helping Tea*
i  Central 1 H illsd a le
1 St.. Elmo
1 Washington
1 M obile Co. High
1 W illiamson
1 T rin ity  Gardens

. . . ---- -  . . . ------ --------  ------

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SSvttYO? TEACHER ASSTCNMEHTS AND VACANCIES —  MOBILE COSJMTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS - 1969-70 - AS OF
(1y ( 2 ) < 0 (4 ) ( 6 ) . . .  . . ( 0 ) (7 )No. New

(S) ^
No. Transfers N o.T ransfers jS c h c o I White Non- Vacancies Vacancies F ille d Present i

A g 15 ■! p tt s d White Occurred White 1 Non-White Vacancies Teachers From .. . T o . . .
69-70 | 1

1C koSO 1 1
filer.. 1-6 ix 9 2 0 0 0 0 0 1 Maryvsle

Orchard 3 H illsd a le 1 A.Prin.-Adams|
Elera. 1-5 26 • 21 5 2 2 0 2 1 Lee I

|
(

Ovenc
ii

1 fiande
Elen. 1-6 34 2 32 3 0 0 » 2 - 1 Hamilton - \
Spec. Ed. 2 2 1 Brookley

36 2 • 34 1 W illiams 
1 Sesames

Elam. 1-5 21 2 19 2 0 0 1 1 Glendale
Epee. Ed. 1 1

22 2 20

n ip s 2 Rain 1 Woodcock
? c . 7 -  3 34 32 2 3 s 0 1 3 1 ClarkwtL< i 2 1 1 1 Dixon

36 33 3 1 F orest H ill i

»‘ :ichard 1 H illsd a le
—

1 H illsd a le  !
S;iC. 6-0 20 16 4 1 1 0 1 1 2 Adams 1 B ie n v ille . 1
f~.ee. Ed. 1 1 0 !

21 17 4 i
'

- ’|
!
!

' . >,
i ■

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SUMMARY OF TEACHER ASSIGNMENTS AND VACANCIES ~  MOBILE COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS - 1969-70 - AS OF SEPTEMBER 24, 1969
a) (2>. 3) . (4 ) (5 ) (6 ) (7 ) (8 )

N o.tra n sfersSchool No. Teachers White ^ N o n - Vacancies Vacancies F ille d Present No. New No. Transfers
Assigned White Occurred White Non-WHi te Vacancies Teachers From .. . T o . . .
69-70

3„ C. Rain 1 Clark 2 P h ill ip s
Sec. 7-12 54- 46 8 13 9 3 2 16 2 Scarborough 1 W illiamson I
Spec. Ed. 2 2 0 1 Central S

56 48 8 1 Blount 
1 Adams 
1 Murphy 
1 Montgomery 
1 V igor

i

,'obins 
Elera. 1-5 24 2 22 0 i 2 -

j
1 Shepard
2 Glendale

Saraland
Elem. 1-5 21 19 2 3 1

>

1 1 Adams 
1 Mt„ Vernon

wa u tna 7 Adams 1 Helping Tea,
52 41 9 .6 3 3 - 8 1 Calcedeaver 6 Adams

Spec. Ed. 0 2 1 M obile Co.Trng.
54 43 u 1 Evans 

1 C itron e lle

Scarborough
29

4 H illsd a le
6 27 2 6 3 0 4

"
1 Stanton Road 
1 Rain 
1 T it le  X

Helping Tea*

— — -----------

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SDSiARY OF TEACHER ASSIGNMENTS AND VACANCIES - -  MOBILE COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS -  1969-70 - AS OF SSPTg-iEKR J J , ,  J.969

School No; Teachers White" Non-
White

Vacancies
Occurred

Vacancies F ille d  J 
White I Non-White

Present
Vacancies

No. New 
Teachers

No. Transfers 1 
From .. .

N o.Transfers j

Ss-“ ?S (1 -8 ) 

Svc. 6*S
11
25

.___ 2 _
38

9
23

1
33

2
2
1
5

5 5 0 6

1 C itron e lie  
1 Tanner Was.
1 Stanton Road 
1 Owens

1 Montgomery j 
1 Forest H ill  
1 Scarborough 
1 C itro n e lie  3 
1 Murphy j 
1 Azalea Road a 
1 Indian Spring^ 

]

" s e c .  9-12 57 51 a 14 1 0 2 , i i
1 Baker 
1 Lee
1 T oulm invilla  
1 W illiamson 
1 S t. Elmo 
1 Murphy 
1 Scarborough 
1 M obile Co. Trng 
1 H illsd a le

1 V igor j

i

|

Shoo-ird 
Eiern. 1-6 14 12 2 2 1 0 - 0

1 Robbins 
1 Daves-Union

1 Burroughs.,

Sea:icon Road 
Eiern. 1-6 30 2 23 4 0 1 - 1 1 Scarborough 1 Eight Mile 

1 Summed

Sc. Eiao 
Sec. 7-8 19 10 9 4 2 0 i 5

4 H oliin gers  I s l , T Murphy 
3 Theodore
3 Alba 
1 V igor
1 Shaw
2 Mobile Co.Kigb
4 Eanes
\  J t S i M a d .  _

!

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SUMMARY OF TEACHER ASSIGNMENTS AND VACANCIES —  MOBILE COUNTY FUBLIC SCHOOLS - 1969-70 - AS OF SEPTEMBER 2j., 1969
(1 ) (2 ) .  13) . (4 ) (5 ) „  (6 ) , (7 ) ' (8 ) . N o .tra n sfersSchool No. Teachers White Non- Vacancies Vacancies F ille d P resen t. No. New No. Transfers

Assigned White Occurred White Non-White Vacancies Teachers From .. . To. . .
69-70

anr.er Williams 1 Chickasaw 1 Semmes
Elens. 1-6 9 6 3 i 0 0 2 0 1 Council

‘htodore 2 Eanes 1 T rin ity  Gdns.
Sec. 7-12 66 61 S 12 7 1 1 14 3 S t. Elmo 1 Dunbar
Spec. Ed. 2 1 1 ' 1 Satsuma68 62 6 1 M obile Co»Hig Baker ,

1 Murphy
1 Davidson 
1 C entral

“hcmas
Elea. 1-6 10 7 3 0 0 0 “ 0 *

’oulminvi l i e 1 Theodore 1 V igor
Sec. 10-12 42 6 36 3 3 : o . 1 4 1 Vigor 1 Blount
Spec. Ed. 1 c i 1 W illiamson 1 Shaw

43 6 . 37 1 Grant

r in icy  Gardens 2 V igor 2 V igor
See. 7-12 42 4 ' 38 6 0 4 - 4 1 Azalea Road 1 Murphy
Spec. Eu. 1 i 0 1 L ott

43 5 38 1 Theodora

i
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S'J-y-'iP.Y OF TEACHER ASSIGNMENTS AMD VACANCIES —  MOBILE COUNT? PUBLIC SCHOOLS -  1 9 6 9 -7 0  -  AS OF SEPTEMBER 2 1 ,  1 96 9

69
61

 ‘9
Z 

.id
qi

ua
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ip
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% 
po

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w

oy
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oi
py

n
f9



SUltMARY OF TEACHER ASSIGNMENTS AND VACANCIES —  MOBILE COUNTY PUstlC SCHOOLS - 1969-70 - AS OF SEPTEMBER 24, 1969
(1 ) (2 ) 1 (3 ) w \ (5) (6 )

Nô . New
(8)

N o.tra n sfersSchool Wo. Teachers White Non- Vacancies Vacancies F ille d Present No. Transfers
Assigned White Occurred White Non-White Vacancies Teachers From .. . T o . . .
69-70

John W ill
Elea. 1-5 24 17 7 0 0 0 i 0 5 H illsd a le 1 T it le  I

Helping Tea.

Ad e lia  Williams 1 Council
Eletp. 1-6 14 . 12 2 3 3 0 3 2 1 Owens *

Hiamson 1 Rain 1 Murphy
, sec . 8-12 ‘ 42 3 39 5 1 2 - 4 1 Adams 1 Shaw

Spec. Ed. ' 1 1 0 1 T oulm inville
43 4 39

■\ 1-er 1 Owens 1 Evans
' Elea. 1-6 12 8 ; 4 • 2 , i: 1 _ 2 1 B razier

Spec. Ed. 1 0 • ’
13 9 4 ■

dodcock
Elea. 1-6 u  . 8 3 3 0 1 - 0 1 P h ill ip s 1 A r lin g ton '
" nc .  Ed. '  1 o • 1

12 8 4

h ilc  Guidance 
Spec. Ed. 17 15 2 3 2 1 - 10 - 1 V igor 

1 Dunbar

1 Page 16

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543a

Opinion of Court of Appeals of December 1, 1969

No. 26285

Derek Jerome Singleton, et al.,

A p p ella n ts ,

Jackson Municipal Separate School District, et al.,

A p p e lle e s .

APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 

FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI

No. 28349

B irdie Mae Davis, et al.,

P la in tiff s -A p p ella n ts ,

United States of A merica,

P la in tiff-In te rv en o r ,

■—v.—

B oard of School Commissioners of 
Mobile County, et al.,

D e fe n d a n ts -A p p e lle e s ,

Twila F razier, et al.,

D e fen d a n ts -In te r v e n o r -A p p e lle e s .

a p p e a l  f r o m  t h e  u n it e d  s t a t e s  d is t r ic t  c o u r t

FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA

[and other cases]



544a

O pin ion  o f  C o u rt o f  A p p e a ls  o f  D ecem b er  1 , 1969  

B e f o r e  :
B rown, C h ie f J u d g e ,

W isdom, Gewin, Bell, T hornberry, Coleman, Goldberg, 
A insworth, Godbold, Dyer, Simpson, Morgan, Carswell, 

and Clark, C ircuit J u d g es , en  banc.*

Per Curiam : These appeals, all involving school de- 
segregation orders, are consolidated for opinion purposes. 
They involve, in the main, common questions of law and 
fact. They were heard en  banc on successive days.

Following our determination to consider these cases en  
banc, the Supreme Court handed down its decision in A le x ­

and er  v. H o lm e s  C o u n ty  B o a rd  o f  E d u ca tion , 1969, ——
TT.S. ------ , 90 S.Ct. ------ , 24 L.ed.2d 19. That decision
supervened all existing authority to the contrary. It sent 
the doctrine of deliberate speed to its final resting place. 
24 L.ed.2d at p. 21.

The rule of the case is to be found in the direction to 
this court to issue its order “ effective immediately de­
claring that each of the school districts . . . may no longer 
operate a dual school system based on race or color, and 
directing that they begin immediately to operate as unitary 
school systems within which no person is to be effectively 
excluded from any school because of race or color.” We 
effectuated this rule and order in U n ited  S ta te s  v. H in d s

C o u n ty  S ch ool B o a rd , 5 Cir., 1969, ------  F.2d ——, [Nos.
28,030 and 28,042, slip opinion dated Nov. 7, 1969]. It 
must likewise be effectuated in these and all other school

* Judge Wisdom did not participate in Nos. 26285, 28261, 28045, 
28350, 28349 and 28361. Judge Ainsworth did not participate in 
No. 28342. Judge Carswell did not participate in Nos. 27863 and 
27983. Judge Clark did not participate in No. 26285.



545a

eases now being or which are to be considered in this or 
the district courts of this circuit.

The tenor of the decision in A lex a n d er  v. H o lm e s  C o u n ty  

is to shift the burden from the standpoint of time for con­
verting to unitary school systems. The shift is from a 
status of litigation to one of unitary operation pending 
litigation. The new modus operandi is to require imme­
diate operation as unitary systems. Suggested modifica­
tions to unitary plans are not to delay implementation. 
Hearings on requested changes in unitary operating plans 
may be in order but no delay in conversion may ensue be­
cause of the need for modification or hearing.

In A lex a n d er  v. H o lm e s  C o u n ty , the court had unitary 
plans available for each of the school districts. In ad­
dition, this court, on remand, gave eaeh district a limited 
time within which to offer its own plan. It was apparent 
there, as it is here, that converting to a unitary system 
involved basically the merger of faculty and staff students, 
transportation, services, athletic and other extra-curricular 
school activities. We required that the conversion to uni­
tary systems in those districts take place not later than 
December 31, 1969. It was the earliest feasible date in the 
view of the court. U n ited  S ta tes  v. H in d s C o u n ty , supra. 

_In  three of the systems there (Hinds County, Holmes 
County and Meridian), because of particular logistical dif- 

“'"ficulties, the Office of Education (HEW) had recommended 
"two step plans. The result was, and the court ordered, 

that the first step be implemented not later than December 
31, 1969 and the other beginning with the fall 1970 school 
term.

Opinion of Court of Appeals of December 1, 1969



546a

I

Because of A lex a n d er  v. H o lm e s  C o u n ty , each of the 
cases here, as will be later discussed, must be considered 
anew, either in whole or in part, by the district courts. 
It happens that there are extant unitary plans for some 
of the school districts here, either Office of Education or 
school board originated. Some are operating under free­
dom of choice plans. In no one of the districts has a plan 
been submitted in light of the precedent of A lex a n d er  v. 
H o lm e s  C o u n ty . That case resolves all questions except 
as to mechanics. The school districts here may no longer 
operate dual systems and must begin immediately to op­
erate as unitary systems. The focus of the mechanics 
question is on the accomplishment of the immediacy re­
quirement laid down in A lex a n d er  v. H o lm e s  C o u n ty .

Despite the absence of plans, it will be possible to merge 
faculties and staff, transportation, services, athletics and 
other extra-curricular activities during the present school 
term. It will be difficult to arrange the merger of student 
bodies into unitary systems prior to the fall 1970 term 
in the absence of the merger plans. The court has con­
cluded that two-step plans are to be implemented. One 
step must be accomplished not later than February 1, 
1970 and it will include all steps necessary to conversion 
to a unitary system save the merger of student bodies into 
unitary systems. The student body merger will constitute 
the second step and must be accomplished not later than 
the beginning of the fall term 1970.1 The district courts,

1 Many faculty and staff members will be transferred under step 
one. It will be necessary for final grades to be entered and for 
other records to be completed, prior to the transfers, by the trans-

Opinion of Court of Appeals of December 1, 1969



547a

in the respective cases here, are directed to so order and 
to give first priority to effectuating this requirement.

To this end, the district courts are directed to require 
the respective school districts, appellees herein, to request 
the Office of Education (HEW) to prepare plans for the 
merger of the student bodies into unitary systems. These 

^ a n s  'shall beTTIe3”w it^^  courts not later than
January 6, 1970 together with such additional plan or 
modification of the Office of Education plan as the school 
district may wish to offer. The district court shall enter 
its final order not later than February 1, 1970 requiring 
and setting out the details of a plan designed to accom­
plish a unitary system of pupil attendance with the start 
of the fall 1970 school term. Such order may include a 
plan designed by the district court in the absence of the 
submission of an otherwise satisfactory plan. A copy of 
such plan as is approved shall be filed by the clerk of 
the district court with the clerk of this court.* 2

Opinion of Court of Appeals of December 1, 1969

ferring faculty members and administrators for the partial school 
year involved. The interim period prior to February 1, 1970 is 
allowed for this purpose.

The interim period prior to the start of the fall 1970 school 
term is allowed for arranging the student transfers. Many stu­
dents must transfer. Buildings will be put to new use. In some 
instances it may be necessary to transfer equipment, supplies or 
libraries. School bus routes must be reconstituted. The period 
allowed is at least adequate for the orderly accomplishment of the 
task.

2 In formulating plans, nothing herein is intended to prevent the 
respective school districts or the district court from seeking the 
counsel and assistance of state departments of education, uni­
versity schools of education or of others having expertise in the 
field of education.

It is also to be noted that many problems of a local nature are 
likely to arise in converting to and maintaining unitary systems.



548a

The following provisions are being required as step one 
in the conversion process. The district courts are directed 
to make them a part of the orders to be entered and to also 
give first priority to implementation.

The respective school districts, appellees herein, must 
take the following action not later than February 1, 1970:

Desegregation of F aculty and Other Staff

The School Board shall announce and implement 
the following policies:

1. Effective not later than February 1, 1970, the prin­
cipals, teachers, teacher-aides and other staff who 
work directly with children at a school shall be so 
assigned that in no case will the racial composition of 
a staff indicate that a school is intended for Negro 
students or white students. For the remainder of the 
1969-70 school year the district shall assign the staff 
described above so that the ratio of Negro to white 
teachers in each school, and the ratio of other staff in 
each, are substantially the same as each such ratio is 
to the teachers and other staff, respectively, in the 
entire school system.

The school district shall, to the extent necessary to 
carry out this desegregation plan, direct members of 
its staff as a condition of continued employment to 
accept new assignments.

Opinion of Court of Appeals of December 1, 1969

These problems may best be resolved on the community level. _ The 
district courts should suggest the advisability of bi-raeial advisory 
committees to school boards in those districts having no Negro 
school board members.



549a

2. Staff members who work directly with children, 
and professional staff who work on the administra­
tive level will be hired, assigned, promoted, paid, de­
moted, dismissed, and otherwise treated without re­
gard to race, color, or national origin.

3. If there is to be a redaction in the number of prin­
cipals, teachers, teacher-aides, or other professional 
staff employed by the school district which will re­
sult in a dismissal or demotion of any such staff mem­
bers, the staff member to be dismissed or demoted 
must be selected on the basis of objective and reason­
able non-discriminatory standards from among all the 
staff of the school district. In addition if there is any 
such dismissal or demotion, no staff vacancy may be 
filled through recruitment of a person of a race, color, 
or national origin different from that of the individual 
dismissed or demoted, until each displaced staff mem­
ber who is qualified has had an opportunity to fill the 
vacancy and has failed to accept an offer to do so.

Prior to such a reduction, the school board will 
develop or require the development of non-racial ob­
jective criteria to be used in selecting the staff member 
who is to be dismissed or demoted. These criteria shall 
be available for public inspection and shall be retained 
by the school district. The school district also shall 
record and preserve the evaluation of staff members 
under the criteria. Such evaluation shall be made 
available upon request to the dismissed or demoted 
employee.

“ Demotion” as used above includes any reassign­
ment (1) under which the staff member receives less

Opinion of Court of Appeals of December 1, 1969



550a

pay or lias less responsibility than under the assign­
ment he held previously, (2) which requires a lesser 
degree of skill than did the assignment he held pre­
viously, or (3) under which the staff member is asked 
to teach a subject or grade other than one for which 
he is certified or for which he has had substantial 
experience within a reasonably current period. In gen­
eral and depending upon the subject matter involved, 
five years is such a reasonable period.

Majority to Minority Transfer P olicy

The school district shall permit a student attending 
a school in which his race is in the majority to choose 
to attend another school, where space is available, and 
where his race is in the minority.

Transportation

The transportation system, in those school districts 
having transportation systems, shall be completely re­
examined regularly by the superintendent, his staff, 
and the school board. Bus routes and the assignment 
of students to buses will be designed to insure the 
transportation of all eligible pupils on a non-segre- 
gated and otherwise non-discriminatory basis.

School Construction and Site Selection

All school construction, school consolidation, and 
site selection (including the location of any temporary 
classrooms) in the system shall be done in a manner 
which will prevent the recurrence of the dual school 
structure once this desegregation plan is implemented.

Opinion of Court of Appeals of December 1, 1969



551a

A ttendance Outside System oe Residence

If the school district grants transfers to students 
living in the district for their attendance at public 
schools outside the district, or if it permits transfers 
into the district of students who live outside the dis­
trict, it shall do so on a non-discriminatory basis, ex­
cept that it shall not consent to transfers where the 
cumulative effect will reduce desegregation in either 
district or reinforce the dual school system.

See U n ited  S ta tes  v. H in d s C o u n ty , su pra , decided No­
vember 6, 1969. The orders there embrace these same re­
quirements.

II

In addition to the foregoing requirements of general 
applicability, the order of the court which is peculiar to 
each of the specific cases being considered is as follows:

-y. -.V,■7\' w  vr *Jv

Opinion of Court of Appeals of December 1, 1969

No. 28349—Mobile County, A labama

On June 3, 1969, we held that the attendance zone and 
freedom of choice method of student assignment used by 
the Mobile School Commissioners was constitutionally un­
acceptable. Pursuant to our mandate the district court re­
quested the Office of Education (HEW) to collaborate with 
the board in the preparation of a plan to fully desegregate 
all public schools in Mobile County. Having failed to reach 
agreement with the board, the Office of Education filed its 
plan which the district court on August 1, 1969, adopted 
with slight modification (but which did not reduce the



552a

amount of desegregation which will result). The court’s 
order directs the board for the 1969-1970 school year to 
close two rural schools, establish attendance zones for the 
25 other rural schools, make assignments based on those 
zones, restructure the Hillsdale School, assign all stu­
dents in the western portion of the metropolitan area 
according to geographic attendance zones designed to de­
segregate all the schools in that part of the system, and 
reassign approximately 1,000 teachers and staff. Thus the 
district court’s order of August 1, now before us on ap­
peal by the plaintiffs, will fully desegregate all of Mobile

Opinion of Court of Appeals of December 1, 1969

to transport students to the western part of the city. The 
district court was not satisfied with this latter provision 

__and required the board after further study and collabora­
tion with HEW officials, to submit by December 1, 19697a~ 
plaiTTbr~the desegregation of The schools~m the eastern 
part of thelnetropoliluji area.- "

The school board urges reversal of the district court’s 
order dealing with the grade organization of the Hills­
dale School and the faculty provisions.

We affirm the order of the district court with directions 
to desegregate the eastern part of the metropolitan area 
of the Mobile County School System and to otherwise 
create a unitary system in compliance with the require­
ments of H o lm e s  C o u n ty  and in accordance with the other 
provisions and conditions of this order.

of metropoHtarTMoHIe~whereT was proposed by the plan
County schools except the schools portion

# #



553a

III

In the event of an appeal or appeals to this court from 
an order entered as aforesaid in the district courts, such 
appeal shall be on the original record and the parties are 
encouraged to appeal on an agreed statement as is pro­
vided for in Rule 10(d), Federal Rules of Appellate Pro­
cedure (FRAP). Pursuant to Rule 2, FRAP, the provisions 
of Rule 4(a) as to the time for filing notice of appeal are 
suspended and it is ordered that any notice of appeal be 
filed within fifteen days of the date of entry of the order 
appealed from and notices of cross-appeal within five days 
thereafter. The provisions of Rule 11 are suspended and 
it is ordered that the record be transmitted to this court 
within fifteen days after filing of the notice of appeal. 
The provisions of Rule 31 are suspended to the extent that 
the brief of the appellant shall be filed within fifteen 
days after the date on which the record is filed and the 
brief of the appellee shall be filed within ten days after 
the date on which the brief of appellant is filed. No reply 
brief shall be filed except upon order of the court. The 
times set herein may be enlarged by the court upon good 
cause shown.

The mandate in each of the within matters shall issue 
forthwith. No stay will be granted pending petition for 
rehearing or application for certiorari.

R eversed as to all save Mobile and St. John The Bap­
tist Parish; A ffirmed as to Mobile with direction; A f­
firmed in part and R eversed in part as to St. John The 
Baptist Parish; R emanded to the district courts for fur­
ther proceedings consistent herewith.

Opinion of Court of Appeals o f December 1, 1969



554a

Department of Health, E ducation, and W elfare 
Regional Office

Room 526—Mail Room 404 
50 Seventh Street, N.E.

December 1, 1969

Honorable Daniel H. Thomas 
District Judge, U. S. District Court 

for the Southern District of Alabama 
Mobile, Alabama 36601

Dear Judge Thomas:

Enclosed please find six (6) copies of four (4) plans 
formulated by the II. S. Office of Education, Department 
of Health, Education, and Welfare, regarding the opera­
tion of schools in Metropolitan Mobile County Schools.

Sincerely,

E rnest E. Bunch 
Ernest E. Bunch 
Acting Senior Program Officer 
Equal Educational Opportunities

Second HEW Report Filed December 1, 1969



555a

A  DESEGREGATION PLAN FOR THE 
MOBILE COUNTY SCHOOL SYSTEM

Second H E W  Report Filed December 1, 1969

A  REPORT TO THE 
SUPERINTENDENT

By the

Division of E qual E ducational Opportunities 
U. S. Office of E ducation 

Atlanta, Georgia 30323



556a

Department of Health, E ducation, and W elfare 
Regional Office

Room 526—Mail Room 404 
50 Seventh Street, N.E.

December 1, 1969

Dr. Cranford H. Burns, Superintendent 
Board of School Commissioners of Mobile County 
Box 1327
Mobile, Alabama 36601 

Dear Dr. Burns:

Enclosed are four (4) copies of four (4) plans referring 
to schools in the Metropolitan area of Mobile, Alabama.

Your attention is elicited for the purposes of review and 
action in terms of accomplishing the mandates of the 
Courts regarding the establishment of “ just schools” for 
the pupil populations within your school district.

Each plan is self explanatory and flexible in terms of more 
precise sophistication that will achieve the objectives of 
the Court Orders.

Second HEW Report Filed December 1, 1969

Sincerely,

E rnest E. Bunch 
Ernest E. Bunch 
Acting Senior Program Officer 
Equal Educational Opportunities



557a

S econ d  H E W  R e p o r t  F ile d  D ec em b er  1 , 1969

Table of Contents

R ecommended P lans foe Desegregation

P lan A  

Plan B

P lan B— A lternative 

Plan B— I— A lternative



558a

Mobile County, A labama 
Metropolitan Schools

The following plans regarding the educational system 
of Metropolitan Mobile is exhibited as approaches to solu­
tions to problems occasioned by or incident to the desegre­
gation of these schools.

In the main there are four plans presented. Each of these 
plans differ in substance or degree, and in many instances 
in both substance and degree. However, all of the plans 
are based upon educational concepts promulgated either 
recently or not so recently.

For purposes of identification the plans contained in this 
report are exhibited as follows:

Plan A

Plan B

Plan B—Alternative 

Plan B—I—Alternative

These plans are presented for the most part in statistical 
exhibit that may be utilized for comparative purposes. 
Each plan uses the major variables necessary for this 
type analysis, i.e., Name of school, grades, capacity of 
schools, student population in a given school(s). The 
statistics used in all four (4) of the plans are based in 
the main on the Department of Health, Education, and 
Welfare’s Report to the Superintendent of Mobile County’s 
Schools, July, 1968. Consequently, these statistics may or 
may not agree with current figures of the Board of Edu­
cation. However, they may be considered as relative close 
approximates that could be used as a guide for a more 
precise sophistication in this vein.

Second HEW Report Filed December 1, 1969



559a

Second H EW  Report Filed December 1, 1969 

PLAN A

Mobile County, A labama 

R lan A

Elementary, Senior High, and Junior High-Middle Schools

This plan shows all existing school buildings of record, 
the grade structure within each school, the permanent 
capacity, and where available, the capacity with the use 
of portables, student breakdown, by race, and the number 
of portable units located at each school site.



560a

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566a

Second H EW  Report Filed December 1, 1969 

PLAN B

Mobile County, A labama 

Plan B

Senior High Schools

This plan exhibits three organizational grade structures 
for the schools within this category, i.e., 9-12, 10-12, and 12 
in addition to items of analysis as hereinto referred. It 
also provides for the following:

1. combining two school centers,

2. changing two (2) former high schools to junior 
high-middle schools,

3. establishing one (1) 12 grade school and trans­
porting the remaining 9-11 students to contigiously 
zoned schools, and,

4. setting geographic attendance zones for each school 
center.

Junior High—Middle Schools

This category under this plan suggests basically the fol­
lowing :

1. geographic zones for identified schools with the 
variables aforementioned,

2. organizational grade structures of 7-8; 6-9; 6-7, and 
two (2) grade 8 schools,



Second H EW  Report Filed December 1, 1969

3. deploying three (3) school structures differently 
than formerly used, and

4. combining three (3) sets ot schools for utilization 
as single school centers for each set.

Elementary Schools

This category of schools are exhibited in addition to the 
constants encouched as referred to above with the follow­
ing apparent factors present:

1. the closing of three (3) schools,

2. organizing grades on a 1-6; 1-5 basis,

3. deploying three (3) schools differently than 
formerly,

4. involving one-way transporting of black students 
from two (2) areas to nine (9) formerly all-white 
or near all-white attendance centers, and,

5. pairing of three (3) sets of schools.

567a



S econ d  H E W  R e p o r t  F ile d  D ec e m b e r  1 , 1969

568a

(See opposite) ESP



COKTOSITS BUILDING INFORMATION FORM

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570a
Second H

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- / § > -  ; .
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1 COMPOSITE BUILDING INFORMATION FORM

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COMPOSITE BUILDING INFORMATION FORM

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574a

S econ d  H E W  R e-port F iled  D ec em b er  1, 1969 

FLAM B—ALTERNATIVE

Mobile County, A labama 

Plan B—A lternative

S en io r  H ig h  S ch ools

This plan differs from Plan B in the following manner:

1. it does not involve school attendance of pupils out of 
the present geographic zones, and

2. Toulminville, Trinity, Gardens, and Mobile County 
Training Schools are not included to serve senior 
high school students.

J u n ior H ig h — M id d le  S ch ools

This category of schools under this plan provides basic­
ally for the following as compared to Plan B for this 
grade levels:

1. utilizing the Toulminville School in the set (as 
exhibited) in lieu of Fonvielle School.

E le m e n ta r y  S ch ools

The schools contained in this category as under this 
plan as opposed to Plan B suggests the following:

1. students attend prescribed geographic zones,

2. black students who were transported from two (2) 
areas within the Eastern section of the beltline area 
are assigned to nearby and schools that were 
closed  or redeployed , as indicated in Plan B. 
(Reference to Toulminville and Emerson-Cald- 
well-Howard areas.)



C O M P O S I T E  B U I L D I N G  I N F O R M A T I O N  F O R M  

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/ <L As; *■ / / > —7 c3VJLdLLS--
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VJ N T Comments

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IPOS I I E  B U I L D I N G  I N F O R M A T I O N  F O R M

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COMPOSITE SUILOISG INFORMATION FORM (J )■

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COMPOSITE BUILDING INFORMATION FORM

& -/?£  Tc£A/y? 772£

— -* -y H "*a, —;
C apacity Sruder ts S ta f f

Nar.r: o f  School Grades Pern. W. P orts W N T w N T Comirencs

9- /2 4 * 8 , f / 2 . 7 3 2 A r 7 5 ^ / 3 / A ^ s

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581a

S econ d  H E W  R e p o r t  F ile d  D ec em b er  1 , 1969 

PLAN B-l ALTERNATIVE

Mobile County, A labama 

P lan B-l A lternative

This plan is based primarily upon the concept of non- 
contigious pairing of schools. These schools are located, 
for the most part, in areas geographically, economically, 
and possibly culturally opposite each other. It takes into 
consideration such factors as the following:

1. pernament capacities of schools,

2. capacities of schools with portable units,

3. access to thoroughfares from one center to the other,

4. distances travelled,

5. suitability of facilities,

6. populations concentration,

7. non-utilization of undesirable school sites and 
buildings,

8. convenience,

9. utilization of the public school transportation net­
work,

10. assignment of smaller children into schools with 
the fewer students enrolled,

11. a suggested grade level organization for all ele­
mentary children, and,

12. utilization of schools without regard to race.



582a

Second HEW Report Filed December 1 ,  1969

(See opposite) SSF’



nos FORM

C'.-\;• E: PLANB -  1 - ALTERNATIVE 

ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS

MOBILE COUNTY, ALABAMA SCHOOL DISTRICT

of School 1 Grades, ii ?er~ . . W, Pores.
j Students i o ta : f ! ,. .. i " N i

F onvielle  \ 3-5 ’ 1190 400 666 1066 !
n - - - - - - :—

Forest H ill / 1-2 !| 578 204 334
1

538

Licnkauf \. 5 I 442 410 110 _ 520 ii
West lawn 1-2 ; 51 0 711 277 988

Mertz / 3-4 510 711 278 989
| i

|

Hall \ 1 -3 - 1224 691 458 1149

Ma ry va 1 e y / 4-5 612 * 380 236 • 6x5 i
j

Arl ihgton-Council^X^ 3-5 1054 737 437 1174
j

Morningside 1-2 578 . 369 222 591

Austin 4-5 ■408
i

_ _ _ _ _ •_______ 311 . 139 450

Old Shell Road 1-3 476
| j
| 31*£ 178 490

i
j

Crichton
j

3-5 | 782 f
II 481 241

i
722 j

i
i ■

Shepard 1-2
;

544 j  410 ll 1501 560 I
i
i •

Caldwell * ;
1-3 • 578 ,j ! ;  291 255j 546 | 

s
|| I

P .r n n V  1  e>V S 4-5 1  442 | j !  224 1 i 0 | 442 i ! f \ 
il

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COMPOSITE BUILDING INFORMATION TORN

DATE: PLAN B - T - A t l e r n a t l v e ___
(2)

Name o f School Grades
Capacity

Perm. W. P orts.
Students 

W N T
S ta ff

T Comments

Eight Mile \ 1-2 340 98 250 348

Grant / 3-5 12900 197 1101 1298

Indian Springs 1-2 403 190 221 411

B r a z ie r  / 3 -5 1156 355 812 1167

R ob b in s -H a m ilto iK 3 -5 1496 800 693 1493

Chickasaw 1-2 612 311 262 573

Orchard Ny 4-5 816 313 639 952

Gorgas ^ 1-3 vi-coCO 449 441 390

Stanton Road 3-5 1020 491 491 982
/

Dickson / 1-2 816 195 __ 729

Dodge 1-2 816 351 506 857

Williams y 3 408 303 225 523

Ooens _ _ / 4-6 1496 484 1100 • 1584

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r * r t P L A N ' B -l-A ltern a tiv e
T3T

Name o f Schooi
j; Capacity ij Students 

Grades i'j Perm. W. P orts. j| W N T
i S ta ff 
j V N T j Comments

Emerson CLOSE ||

Palmer-Glendale 3-5
i ■

1258 634 717 1351

Fonde y / ' 1-2 850 1 405 450 885
j

Thomas 1-2 272 123. 235 358

Wh i 11 ey 3-5 ,612 273 341 614

W ill \ 3-5 816 397 422 819 I- • .. ■

’’•'his t ie r 1-2 6S0 : 462 178 640 i
j

Hovar.d .CLOSE
i

! I
J
j

! i , j

____ _____ —___ I 1 j ! 
1 1 1 i 1

|
i

1 " i 1 1

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1969



586a

In compliance with the orders and instructions to the 
School Board contained in this Court’s Decree of August 
1, 1969, the School Board now files its suggested desegre­
gation plan for all of the metropolitan schools located east 
of 1-65, for implementation for the 1970-71 school term.

As it has done on several occasions in the past, the 
School Board would once again respectfully call to the at­
tention of the Court its sincere and considered opinion 
that the best plan for the operation and desegregation of 
the Mobile County Public School System—the plan that 
will preserve to all students of the system and all citizens 
of the county, black and white alike, their constitutional 
rights, and at the same time is the most educationally 
sound and administratively feasible—is a plan providing 
for a method of student assignment based upon free choice 
of schools ha-all. ---- ‘ "

Having once again called this to the Courts’ attention, 
the School Board is nevertheless compelled by the orders 
of the Court to submit a suggested plan of student assign­
ment based upon geographic zones rather than freedom of 
choice. Under such duress the School Board, against its 
sincere and considered best judgment and contrary to the 
personal wishes and desires of each member of the Board, 
now submits such a suggested plan. There are attached 
hereto three maps representing the suggested plan: one 
labeled “Metropolitan Attendance Areas, Elementary” 
(Map # 1 ) ;  one labeled “Metropolitan Attendance Areas, 
Middle Schools” (Map # 2 ) ;  and one labeled “ Metropolitan 
Attendance Areas, Senior High” (Map # 3 ) . In arriving at 
the suggested plan for the schools east of 1-65, it has been 
necessary to suggest several changes with regard to schools

School Board Plan Filed December 1, 1969



587a

west of 1-65 in order to accommodate and fit with that 
which is suggested for east of 1-65. For the sake of con­
venience and clarity the attached maps reflect the entire 
metropolitan portion of the school system, not just that 
part of it east of 1-65, and the desegregation plan for 
the entire metropolitan portion of the school system.

In addition, these maps also reflect a suggested change 
in the composition of the Dickson, Will, Orchard, Hills­
dale and Scarborough attendance areas essentially unas­
sociated with the suggestions relating to east of 1-65.

The maps are prepared in a manner familiar to the 
Court. The basic maps are official “ City of Mobile” maps 
produced by the City Engineering Department. Attend­
ance area boundaries are superimposed in heavy, dark 
lines. The locations of schools are shown as dark dots 
or circles. The names of the schools (and thus of the 
attendance areas) are written in, as are the grades to be 
accommodated in each school.

School Board Plan Filed December 1, 1969

[Maps omitted—see original record.]



588a

It appearing to the Court that of the three maps filed 
on December 1, 1969 by the defendant Board of School 
Commissioners with its Suggested Desegregation plan for 
all metropolitan schools located east of 1-65, for imple­
mentation for the 1970-71 school term, that the elementary 
attendance area map (Map # 1 )  contains a minor error 
in a drawn line which was inadvertently made and has 
just been detected, it is now

Ordered and adjudged by the Court that the defendant 
Board of School Commissioners is hereby allowed to sub­
stitute for the original Map # 1 ,  a corrected map show­
ing the proposed elementary attendance area, which will 
now be designated as Map # 1 - A  and attached to the 
original Suggested Desegregation plan, filed on December 
1, 1969.

Done at Mobile, Alabama this 4th day of December, 
1969.

District Court Order of December 4 , 1969

/ s /  Daniel H. Thomas 
Daniel H. Thomas 

C h ie f J u d g e

[Map omitted—see original record.]



589a

Plaintiffs’ Motion to Require Service o f  Desegregation 
Plan Filed January 2, 1970

Plaintiffs, Birdie Mae Davis, et al., move this Court for 
an order requiring the defendant School Board to serve on 
all opposing counsel a copy of the maps attached to the 
School Desegregation Plan filed on December 1, 1969 and 
a copy of any amendatory maps filed subsequently. In sup­
port of this motion plaintiffs show the following:

1. The School Board’s failure to serve all opposing coun­
sel inevitably delays our response to the December 
1,1969 plan;

2. The School Board’s failure to serve all opposing 
counsel violates the December 13, 1969 Order of Jus­
tice Hugo Black, which Order required the School 
Board “ to take no steps wdiich are inconsistent with 
or will tend to prejudice or delay full implementation 
of complete desegregation on or before February 1, 
1970” . Delay in serving opposing counsel is a step 
which prejudices full implementation of complete de­
segregation by February 1, 1970.

3. Plaintiffs have written to counsel for the School Board 
and requested copies of the maps attached to the De­
cember 1, 1969 plan, but counsel for the School Board 
has not responded.

Plaintiffs request that the Court act promptly on this mo­
tion.



590a

Statistical Exhibits Submitted by the United States to 
the District Court on January 27, 1970

See Volume III



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