NAACP v. Thompson Transcript of Record Vol. VI
Public Court Documents
September 24, 1964
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. NAACP v. Thompson Transcript of Record Vol. VI, 1964. 541fe915-bf9a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/92474852-b9fb-4c67-8442-f7aa24be72bf/naacp-v-thompson-transcript-of-record-vol-vi. Accessed May 12, 2025.
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Transcript of Record
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FIFTH CIRCUIT
NO. 21741
NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT
OF COLORED PEOPLE, ET AL,
VS .
ALLEN THOMPSON, MAYOR OF THE CITY OF
JACKSON, MISSISSIPPI, ET AL,
VOLUME VI
Pages 1469 through end
APPELLANTS
APPELLEES
(Appeal from the United States District Court
for the Southern District of Mississippi)
Vll
VOLUME VI I N D E X (Continued) Page
TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL
27,28, 1964-
CONTINUED OF FEBRUARY 3,4,5,6,
Dir Cr ,
L. Black (continued) 1469
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 1964
(Def.) D-20
Exs. D-21,D-22,D-23
Redir
1472
R ecr.
1479
Ex .
Def
TRIAL ENDED
CERTIFICATE OF PRINTER PREPARING RECORD
1469
1484
1484
1485
Def . Exs . D-24, D-25, D-26 1487
Def . Ex. 27 1488
Def . Ex. 28 1489
Def . Ex. 29 1490
Def . Ex. 31, Ex. 32 1491
Def . Ex. 33, Ex. 34 1492
Def . Ex. 35, Ex. 36 1493
Def . Ex . 37, Ex. 38 1494
Def . Exs . 39, 40, 41 1495
Def . Exs 42, 43 1496
Def . Exs . 44, 45 1497
Def . Exs . 46, 47 1498
Def . Exs . 48, 49 1499
Def . Ex. 50 1500
Def . Ex. 4 marked in evid enc e 1500
Def . Exs . 5, 6, 7, 10, 3 in evidenc e 1501
Def . Exs . 51, 52 1504
Mr . John L . Ray 1505 1560
Mr . Cliff Bingham 1604 1616 1628
Mr . W . C . Sho emaker 1630 1643
Mr. Beaver s Armstrong 1652 1665
J udg e Carl Guernsey 1673 1684
Mr . S . B . Barnes 1687 1697
Def.. ex. 54 1689
Mr. Charle s Evers 1701
Def . Ex. 55 1691
Def . Ex. 56 1692
Def . Ex. 57 1693
Def . Ex. 58 1708
Def . 11, 12,13,14 withdrawn 1710
Mayor Allen Thompson 1711
Plaintiff Ex. 28 1739
P la intiff Ex. 29 1741
Mr . Ja ck Yo ung 1743
1762
1763
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(J. L. Black - Cross) 1469 .
A. Well, yes, the way they were introduced and also
by the — when they did have a program. When they had a
planned meeting, for instance, when Lena Horne was here and
some of the bigger celebrities in the organization were here,
they always had a printed program, and it was entitled usually,
"NAACP Mass Meeting".
Q. And other than those, you took it from the way
people were introduced, I take it?
A. Yes. They were introduced as their name and who
they were.
Q. They were identified?
A. I mean what office they were with.
Q. Was anybody there from the Red Cross?
A. They weren’t introduced if they were.
Q. Girl Scouts?
A. They weren’t introduced.
Q. Would you have any way of knowing if there was?
A. No.
Q. The crowd changed from night to night?
A. You mean in the difference of people — perhaps,
I don’t know.
Q. You couldn’t identify the same people as being
there each night?
A. Not all of them. Some of them I could..
Q. The ones you’ve talked about, you could?
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(J* L. Black — Cross) 1470.
A. Yes, and some of the others I knew by seeing
them in the office.
Q. I believe you made one error, and we can correct
it for the record. When you talked about John Salter being
introduced on June the 4th, you said he was introduced as
chairman of the strategy committee, and I think for the sake
of clearing it up, see if he wasn't introduced as co-chairman.
A. When was that?
Q. June 4th, 1963.
THE COURT:
I didn't understand what your question was.
MRS. MORRIS:
I beg your pardon.
THE COURT:
I didn't understand what your question was to
him.
MRS. MORRIS:
He made a — the witness has testified to a lot
of this which is in the state proceeding and I was just trying
to clear up for the record how somebody was introduced, so it
will coincide with other testimony.
THE COURT:
You're asking him about Salter?
MRS. MORRIS:
Yes. When he testified, he said chairman.
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(J. L. Black - Cross) 1471
THE COURT:
I understood he was co-chairman.
MRS. MORRIS:
And I believe that his notes will reflect that
he was co-chairman.
THE COURT:
I took it as co-chairman.
MRS. MORRIS:
You did? Well, I misunderstood.
THE WITNESS:
It is co-chairman.
MRS. MORRIS:
I'm sorry.
THE COURT:
Well, I don’t know Salter — never heard of him.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Oh, this business on June the 2nd having to do
with the reading of a note about — somebody gave down at the
fairground in jail. I think you testified that Mr. Evers
said: don't get your child, because they want to stay there.
Wasn't it a fact that he was reading from a note and this is
what the note said?
A. He had a note, I'm sure. This was on the night
of June 2nd?
Q. Yes. Hadn't he received a letter from
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(J. L. Black - Cross) 1472 .
the compound referring to the temporary jail facilities, and
the note read in part: please do not go for your child, for
we are sure she will not come out?
A. Yes. It said: please do not go for your child -
but he started out by reading a letter from the compound, and
he read, quote: "please do not go for your child, for we are
sure she will not come out".
Q. That's what he was reading from?
A. From a note.
Q. That's what I thought. This material that you
brought back — it was passed out to everybody generally,
wasn't it?
A. Yes.
MRS. MORRIS:
I think I have nothing more. I think that is
all.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Mr. Black, you were asked about this episode at
Woolworth's — did you give the date on that?
A. I don't recall right offhand.
Q. Did you have any conversation with the manager
of the store?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Were you present when there was conversation
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(J. L. Black - Redirect) 1473.
with the manager of the store?
A. I hunted up the manager of the store.
Q. Why did you hunt the manager of the store?
A. To ask him if he would ask us in so that we
could break this up before some violence erupted, and that
Chief Ray wanted to talk to him concerning this situation that
was inside the store.
Q. Now, you asked him to permit you to move all the
people out?
A. No, sir, I didn't. I asked him to see Chief
Ray about moving them out.
Q. All right. And were you present when he did
see Chief Ray?
A. Not when he talked with him, no.
Q. Did he permit you to go into the store?
A. He didn't ask me in or anything.
Q. And you weren’t present when the conversation
between the store manager and Captain Ray took place?
A. No, sir.
Q. I believe you testified that you broke up this
Benny Oliver and Memphis Norman fight?
A. Yes, sir. I was in the store under orders of
Chief Ray to observe this crowd and this goings on, so that
if any violence broke out or anything, to see how we could
help. I went in and stood — in fact, I was standing right
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behind the people who were sitting at the counter for a few
minutes, and these students and several people kept coming
on up on them, and I even ran them back behind the counter
one time.
I told them to knock off — stop their bantering
and hollering or else I would ask them from the store, and I
had no right to be in there because I hadn't been asked there.
Q. You tried to get the people there to break off
what they were doing?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And leave the people at the counter alone?
A. And then I left and went back to report to Chief
Ray that the matter was getting out of hand.
Q. All right, then what did you do after that?
A. I came back in the store, and he said: we can't
act until we are requested to do so or asked to do so by the
manager of the store.
Q. Who were you talking to at this time?
A. Chief Ray.
Q. All right.
A. And then he told me to go back in there and
watch as best I could until they were invited in, until the
rest of the police were invited in.
Q. All right, and what did you do then? Did you
(J. L. Black - Redirect) 1474.
go back in?
(J. L. Black - Redirect) 1475.
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A. I did. I walked back in, but the crowd was —
there was a large number of people there. I don't know how
many were there, but I couldn't get through up to where they
were. I could see that they had catsup and mustard and stuff
like that on them, and I walked around to the end of the
counter, and about that time, I saw the fellow that I recognized
as being Benny Oliver come up and tap him on the shoulder and
knock him off the stool, and this was the only male that was
sitting at the counter.
And as fast as I could get through the people,
to them, I broke it up and arrested them both and got them out
of there.
floor?
Q. Were they both struggling or fighting on the
A. They were both down on the floor by the time I
got up there.
Q. All right, and what did you do at that point?
A. I got to them and broke it up and arrested both
of them and took them —
Q. And you took them outside?
A. Took them out of the store and turned them over
to Chief Ray and Lieutenant Wilson, who put them in the car,
and I turned around to go in, and about that time, a man whose
name is on the arrest report, came by with Joan Trumpauer, he
was leading her out the door. And I got ahold of him and her
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(J. L. Black - Redirect) 1476
and I took her name and address and all as the complainant,
and arrested him for assault.
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
What did you arrest Norman for?
floor.
THE COURT:
Well, they were in a tangle and fighting on the
THE WITNESS:
Did you see what he was doing?
THE COURT:
At the time of fighting?
THE WITNESS:
At the time you arrested him, what was he doing?
THE COURT:
He was on the floor under Benny Oliver.
THE WITNESS:
Under Benny Oliver?
THE COURT:
Yes, sir.
THE WITNESS:
What was he doing?
I don't know. It was just an entanglement of
two men down there.
THE COURT:
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(J. L. Black - Redirect) 1477.
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
Did you see who started it?
Yes, sir, I did.
Who?
Benny Oliver
What was Norman doing?
Sitting at the counter
Did he make any resistance or fight back?
None that I saw. As soon as I saw the initial
blow, they both went down behind the people and I didn’t see
anything from there until I got through the people to them,
and they were down on the floor and there were just lots of
people around. I couldn’t see them until I got back there
through the crowd.
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
And you arrested both of them?
Yes, sir, — well, more or less to get them out
of the store there before some more trouble started.
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THE COURT:
(J. L. Black - Redirect) 1478
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
What did you book Norman for?
I think it was for disturbing the peace
What was he doing disturbing the peace?
Well, in this fight, causing all this — he was
part of the cause of this crowd that was there.
THE COURT:
doing.
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
I was trying to get you to tell me what he was
Sitting at the counter there
That was causing the disturbance?
Well, he wasn't arrested for sitting at the
counter there. He was arrested when the fighting started.
Usually, it's a procedure of ours over there when there's a
fight going on, is to take both parties involved in the fight,
and then work it out when we get out from the scene, at the
headquarters.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. As a matter of fact, the City Court and City
(J. L. Black - Redirect) 1479.
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Judge, if you know — do you know what disposition was made
in the City Court on Memphis Norman?
A. I don't know what disposition was made, but I
believe -- I was told that it was dropped.
Q. That’s all right, if you don’t know.
A . I don't know.
MR. TRAVIS:
I believe that's all.
BY MRS. MORRIS:
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
Just a few more questions.
Q. You said you arrested somebody who was taking
Joan Trumpauer out?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you arrest both of them?
A. No.
Q. Who did you arrest of those two?
A. The one who had ahold of Joan Trumpauer.
Q. And Joan Trumpauer had been sitting at the
counter with the rest of the people?
A. Yes.
Q. Joan Trumpauer is white, isn’t she?
A. She is.
Q. Was the person who was taking her out white,
too?
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A. Yes.
Q. You arrested him, but didn't arrest her?
A. Yes.
Q. And you arrested both Benny Oliver and Memphis
Norman?
A. Yes.
Q. And Memphis Norman was sitting at the counter
until Benny Oliver knocked him on the floor and kicked him?
A. Yes.
MRS. MORRIS:
I have no further questions.
REREDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Now, this Joan Trumpauer or whoever she is —
she wasn't fighting or anything, was she?
A. No, she wasn't.
Q. She was just being hauled —
A. Bodily hauled from the store. Had she been
entangled on the floor also, she probably would have gone, too.
MR.TRAVIS: That is all I have.
THE COURT:
I'm going to have to take a recess. What is
counsels situation on the 27th?
MR. BELL:
We have, Your Honor, I think a sufficient staff
(J. L. Black — Recross) 1480..
so that whenever it is convenient to you to start again, we
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1481 .
will have our plaintiffs representative here. At your
earliest convenience would be satisfactory to us.
THE COURT:
Well, I will be in Biloxi. I’ve got two weeks
set down there, and I didn’t plan to hold that session. I
was going to get Judge Allen Cox of the Northern District
to hold it, and he got in an automobile accident and he and
his wife got hurt, so I had sixty-two jurors coming down there
and I've just got to go and hold it, and counsel from several
states down there.
I’ll be down there two weeks and it would be
most convenient with me -- it would be more convenient with
me to presume on the 27th, but if there is any reason why
some other date has to be set, I'll see what your situation
is .
MR. BELL:
MR. WATKINS:
We have no objection to that date
The 27th. We will make ourselves available
THE COURT:
That's on Thursday at nine o'clock on the 27th.
I think we ought to wind up in at least a couple of days.
I'm not asking you to take that much time.
MR. BELL:
If I might have permission, Your Honor, if
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1482 .
it’s not too much in violation of the rules of the Court, I
would like to withdraw the plaintiff's exhibits for identifi
cation concerning these clippings. I think that if I could
take them with me, I could get copies of the ones which are
not copies, so that the exhibits would all be uniform, and
perhaps I could get copies made so that counsel for the other
side would be able to have a set which I wasn't able to pro
vide at the trial. >
THE COURT:
Well, that would have been better, but since
they're here, I don't believe I would let the Court record
get away. They can come up here and look at them. I don't
believe I would like for them to be removed because they are
a part of the Court record now.
MR. BELL:
That's all right.
THE COURT:
All right, we'll take a recess insofar as this
proceeding is concerned until nine o'clock on February 27th,
1964. About how many witnesses does the City contemplate
using?
MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, right now I would estimate ten or
twelve. The reason I say probably, is that in view of the
evidence that has been offered here today, we will not use
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1483 .
some that are on our list, and we will have to substitute
others for them.
THE COURT:
I'm trying to tell you what courtroom we'll
be in. We'll resume this case in courtroom No. 2 upstairs,
because I’ve got witness accommodations for small crowds, and
if the audience overflows that room up there, they're just
going to have to stay out, because I'm not going to allow
anybody other than lawyers and litigants to sit inside the
rail. We're just not going to take care of anybody who can't
find a seat in the audience, because it's just not satisfac
tory trying to function down here. The acoustics are so bad
and we have to ask people to repeat too much, so I think it's
a lot more important that the Court function where it can do
so more efficiently, so we'll resume in courtroom No. 2 at
nine o'clock on Thursday, February 27th.
(The proceedings recessed until
Thursday, February 27th, at nine
o'clock A.M.)
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1484
(Court resumed in this case on Thursday morning, February 27,
1964, at 9 A.M., and the proceedings were as follows:
THE COURT:
All right, who will you have, Mr. Travis?
MR. TRAVIS:
At this point, Your Honor, we would like to introduce
abstracts of the court records of the various witnesses who have
testified on behalf of the plaintiff in this matter.
I would like first to introduce the abstract of the
court record of Plaintiff’s witness, Frankie Mae Adams for
arrest on May 3lst, 1963, when she was charged with parading
without a permit and this abstract shows that the County Court
entered a directed verdict for the plaintiff in that case.
We would like to offer that as Defendants’ Exhibit
No . 20 .
THE COURT:
All right, let it be marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-20.)
MR. TRAVIS:
We would like to offer as Defendants’ Exhibit No. 21
an abstract of the Circuit Clerk of Hinds County in regard to
Frankie Mae Adams’ arrest on June the 13th for parading without
a permit which shows that her appeal in this matter to the
County Court, First Judicial District, is still pending.
THE COURT
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1485 .
All right, that may be admitted into evidence and
properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-21.)
MR. TRAVIS:
As Defendants’ Exhibit No. 22, we would like to offer
the certificate of the Circuit Clerk relative to the County
Court records on Plaintiff’s witness, Frankie Mae Adams, regard
ing her arrest on July 24th for parading without a permit which
shows that this matter is on appeal for jury trial in County
Court on June 15th. That is Defendants’ Exhibit No. 22.
THE COURT:
That abstract may be admitted in evidence and be
properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-22.)
MR. TRAVIS:
The certificate of the Chief Clerk of the Police
Court of the City of Jackson relative to the judgment of Plain
tiff’s witness, Doris Allison, in which she was charged with
obstructing the sidewalk on May 29th, which shows that this
charge against her was dismissed by Municipal Court of the City
of Jackson; that will be Exhibit No. 23, Defendants’ Exhibit 23.
THE COURT:
All right, that certificate may be admitted in evi
dence and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-23.)
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1486
MR, TRAVIS:
As Defendants’ Exhibit No. 24, we would like to offer
the abstract of the court records of the County Court of Hinds
County of Plaintiff’s witness, Jimmie Lee Bell, for the charge
of parading without a permit on June 3, 1963, which shows that
the County Court sustained defendant’s motion for a direct
verdict on September 18, 1963.
THE COURT:
What is the purpose of admitting those documents, Mr.
Travis?
MR. TRAVIS:
Well, Your Honor, of course, these witnesses testifiec
relative to these various arrests. These are abstracts of
records of witnesses, — of the court records of the witnesses
who testified before you on behalf of the Plaintiff in this
matter.
THE COURT:
They testified at variance with these abstracts?
MR. TRAVIS:
As you will recall, you told us at that time that the
best manner in which to bring out this proof was by the court
records or abstracts. They didn’t know what the situation was.
THE COURT:
All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence
and be properly marked
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(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-24.)
MR. TRAVIS:
The abstract on Plaintiff’s witness, Doris Ruth
Bracey relative to a charge by the City of Jackson of obstructin'
a public sidewalk on May 30th, 1963, which shows that she entered
a nolo contendere plea in County Court and paid a $250.00 fine
on September 30th, 1963.
_______________________________________________________________________ 1487 .
THE COURT:
All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence
and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-25.)
MR. TRAVIS:
The judgment of the City Court under the certificate
of the Chief Clerk of the Police Court with regards to the
charge of obstructing the sidewalk, public sidewalk, against
Plaintiffs’ witness, Doris Ruth Bracey, on May 28, 1963, would
show that that was dismissed, that that charge was dismissed by
Municipal Court.
THE COURT :
All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence
and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-26.)
MR. TRAVIS:
Also, with regard to Doris Ruth Bracey, is the chargr
of parading without a permit on June 12, 1963, which shows that
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1488 .
on September 24th she filed an appeal bond to the Circuit Court
she had been tried by and convicted.
MR. BELL:
Are we up to number 27, if you will excuse me please?
MR. TRAVIS:
Yes .
THE COURT:
All right, that certified abstract may be admitted
in evidence and properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-27.)
MR. TRAVIS:
The certified abstract of the City of Jackson vs.
Benjamin Brown, a Plaintiffst witness in this matter, with
regard to parading without a permit on June 4, 1963, which shows
that there was a jury verdict of ’’Not Guilty” and the defendant
was dismissed.
MRS. MORRIS:
Mr. Travis, I don’t believe any Benjamin Brown
testified in this case according to the list of witnesses here.
MR. TRAVIS:
All right, we will withdraw this and I’ll check it.
May I withdraw the last one that we mentioned, Your
Honor, Benjamin Brown, and move to introduce the certified
abstract of Plaintiffs’ witness, Evelyn Carter, for — she was
charged for parading without a permit on June 7, 1963. It
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1489 .
shows that the charge against her was dismissed upon payment of
costs on October 15th in County Court.
MRS. MORRIS:
We didn’t have any Evelyn Carter testify either.
MR. TRAVIS:
May I withdraw that one likewise and we will check it.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. TRAVIS:
I would like to introduce the certified abstract in
regard to the Plaintiffs’ witness, Bennie Lee Catchings, who was
charged on June 4th with breach of the peace in the City of
Jackson. This abstract reflects that on October 16th she entered
a plea of nolo contendere in the County Court and was sentenced
to a $200.00 fine and four months in jail; said jail term being
suspended upon payment of costs and that on October the 22nd,
1963, the defendant, Bennie Lee Catchings, paid said fine and
costs in full.
THE COURT:
All right, that certified abstract may be admitted
in evidence and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit D-28.)
MR. TRAVIS:
Certified abstract in regards to Plaintiffs’ witness,
Mattie Bivins jDennis, who was charged with obstructing the
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1490 .
sidewalk on May 29, 1963, which shows that that charge was dis
missed by the Municipal Court of the City of Jackson on the 7th
day of June, 1963.
THE COURT:
All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence
and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-29.)
MR. TRAVIS:
Thresa Mae Easley; abstract with regards to parading
without a permit on December 6th, -- certified abstract. We
would like to offer that as an exhibit. It is under the certi
ficate of the Chief Clerk of the Police Court.
MR. BELL:
The only objection that we would make on this is,—
well, we would have no objection if the record were to show that
while the parading without a permit charge was dismissed, the
defendant here was also charged with obstructing the sidewalk
and that charge, so far as we know, was not dismissed and I
think she was tried and found guilty of this -- in this situatio
MR. TRAVIS:
I think you are talking about another —
MR. BELL:
This was
No, I think this
the housewives who
is the December 6th
were picketing down
situation.
on Capitol Str ee
THE COURT
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4 91.
I’ll overrule the objection and let that be admitted
in evidence and if there is some other or additional certificate
to be obtained you may obtain it and present it.
MR. TRAVIS:
We’ll check the records on that -- that shows that
that charge was dismissed.
Then we have two abstracts in regard to Plaintiffs’
witness, Doris Annette Erskine. The first when she was charged
with parading, -- unlawful trespass on May 29th, which shows and
reflects that this case is set for jury trial in County Court on
June 1st,
THE COURT:
That certified abstract may be admitted in evidence
and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-31.)
MR. TRAVIS:
The second one in regard to Doris Annette Erskine
when she was charged with breach of the peace on May 30th,
reflecting that this case also was set for jury trial on June
1st.
THE COURT:
All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence
and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-32.)
MR. TRAVIS:
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Certified abstract in regard to Plaintiffs’ witness,
Ralph Edwin King, Jr., charged with disturbing the peace on June
13th, 1963, which shows that the Court entered a judgment of
’’Guilty” and sentenced him to pay a fine of $100.00 on the 17th
of June.
THE COURT:
All right, it may be admitted and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-33.)
MR. TRAVIS:
Abstract under certificate of the Chief Clerk of the
Police Court relative to the affidavit of Ralph Edwin King, Jr.
which reflects that the sentence of $100.00 fine, that he paid
this $100.00 fine on June 17th after entering a plea of "guilty”
and the certificate certifies further that statutory forty days
in which to appeal expired without the defendant taking appeal.
THE COURT :
All right, that certified abstract may be admitted
and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-34.)
MR. TRAVIS:
Certified abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness,
Ralph Edwin King, Jr., who was charged with breach of the peace
on May 30th, 1963, which reflects that this case is on appeal in
the County Court and set for jury trial on July 7, 1964.
THE COURTS
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1493 ,
That certified abstract may be admitted in evidence
and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D~35.)
MR, TRAVIS:
Certified abstract of the Chief Clerk of the Police
Court of the City of Jackson relative to Plaintiffs1 witness,
Willie Ben Ludden, Jr., who was charged with obstructing the
sidewalk on May 29, 1963, reflects that he entered a plea of
"Not Guilty" and that the charge against him was dismissed by
the Municipal Court of the City of Jackson on the 7th day of Jun
1963 c
THE COURT:
All right, that certified abstract may be admitted in
evidence and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D—36.)
MR. TRAVIS:
Certified abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness,
Willie Ben Ludden, Jr., in regards to a charge for parading
without a permit on May 3lst, 1963, which reflects that this
matter is on appeal to County Court of the First Judicial
District of Hinds County, Mississippi, and set for jury trial
on March 24, 1964,
THE COURT:
That may be admitted in evidence and be properly
marked.
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(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-37)
MR, TRAVIS i
Certified abstract of judgment with regard to Plain
tiffs’ witness, Memphis Norman, who was charged with disturbing
the peace on May 28, 1963, which reflects that that charge was
nolprossed on May 3lst, and dismissed.
By way of explanation in regard to this next offer,
Your Honor, this was the -- Memphis Norman was the one who
testified, the witness who testified relative to certain happen
ings at Woolworth’s Store here in the City of Jackson on May 28,
and at this point we would like to introduce the judgment -
THE COURT:
Let me act on the other offer. Admit that in evi
dence and let it be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-38.)
MR. TRAVIS:
That was by way of explanation in regard to this
certified abstract of judgment in regard to Benney G. Oliver,
who, the person who it was stated by Memphis Norman had
assaulted him on that occasion. This judgment reflects that he
was found guilty, after entering a not guilty plea, he was found
guilty and sentenced to pay a $100.00 fine and thirty days in
jail.
All right, that certified copy of that judgment may t
1494 .
THE COURT:
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1495 ,
admitted in evidence and be properly marked,
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-39.)
MR. TRAVIS:
Certificate relative to Helen Jean O’Neal on a charge
of September 4, 1961, which reflects that she was released with
out bond and the charges were dismissed against her by the Court.
THE COURT:
That certificate may be admitted in evidence and be
properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-40.)
MR. TRAVIS:
Certified Abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness,
Helen Jean O’Neal when she was charged with obstructing a public
sidewalk or street on June 7, 1963, which reflects that the
matter is on appeal in the County Court set for jury trial on
March 2, 1964.
THE COURT:
All right, that may be admitted in evidence and be
properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-41.)
MR. TRAVIS:
Certified abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness,
Will Levi Palmer with regard to the charge of parading without
a permit on May 3lst, which reflects that this is on appeal alsc
and set for jury trial.
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1496
THE COURT:
All right, that certified abstract may be admitted
in evidence and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-42 )
MR. TRAVIS:
Certified abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness,
Will Lewis Palmer, Jr. with regard to his parading without a per
mit on June 12, which shows that this charge likewise has been
appealed and has been set for jury trial on March 9.
THE COURT:
How many more have you got here?
MR . TRAVIS:
I have about half a dozen, Your Honor, I’m sorry.
THE COURT:
That is all right. I was just going to suggest to
put them all in at one time. I don’t see much point in putting
them in separately. That may be admitted in evidence and be
properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-43.)
MR . TRAVIS:
Certified abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness,
Will Lewis Palmer, Jr., in regard to the charge of parading
without a permit on June 14, 1963, which reflects that this
charge is also set for trial on March 9, 1964. The last three
that we have offered, although the names vary on the certificate
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1497.
of the abstract, all are the same person.
THE COURT:
You mean the same person with different names?
MR. TRAVIS:
The same individual, Your Honor, it is the same per
son, but he used a different name when he was booked by the
police.
THE COURT:
All right, this abstract may be admitted in evidence
and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-44.)
MR. TRAVIS:
Certified abstract in regard to Plaintiffs’ witness,
Betty Ann Poole, who was charged with parading without a permit
on May 31st, 1963, which relfects that on September 16th she
entered a plea of nolo contendere in County Court and was sen
tenced to a $100.00 fine and 30 days in jail. The jail term was
suspended upon payment of costs. On September 25th the defendan
Betty Ann Poole paid said fine and costs in full.
THE COURT :
All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence
and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-45.)
MR. TRAVIS:
Certified abstract relative to a charge of parading
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1498 ,
without a permit on June 12, 1963, Plaintiffs’ witness, Robert
L. T. Smith, which reflects that he was released on bond on that
date and that the charge against him was dismissed by the Court,
that’s the Municipal Court.
THE COURT:
All right, that certificate may be admitted in evi
dence and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-46.)
MR. TRAVIS:
Certified abstract of the judgment of Plaintiffs’
witness, Eddie Jean Thomas, charged with obstructing a public
sidewalk on May 28, 1963, which reflects she entered a plea of
”Not Guilty” and the charge against her was dismissed in Munici
pal Court on June 7th, 1963.
THE COURT:
That abstract may be admitted in evidence and be
properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-47.)
MR. TRAVIS:
Certified copy of the abstract of the record on
Eddie Jean Thomas, Plaintiffs’ witness, in regard to the charge
of breach of peace on May 30, 1963, which reflects that this
matter has been appealed and set for jury trial in County Court
April 27, 1964.
THE COURT:
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1499 .
All right, the abstract may be admitted in evidence
and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-48.)
MR. TRAVIS:
Certified copy of the abstract, Eddie Jean Thomas,
Plaintiffs’ witness, regarding the charge of unlawfully parading
without a permit on June 12, 1963, which reflects that that
matter has been appealed to the County Court and set for jury
trial April 27, 1964.
THE COURT:
That abstract may be admitted in evidence and be
properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-49.)
MR. TRAVIS:
And, finally, Your Honor, we would like to introduce
the certified abstract in regard to the charge of unlawfully
obstructing the public sidewalk; the charge is against Plain
tiffs’ witness, Hezekiah Watkins. This charge was on June 7th,
1963, which reflects that in County Court after an appeal has
been taken, the case came up for trial and he entered a plea of
nolo contendere; said charge was sentenced to pay a fine of
$500.00 and six months in jail, with said jail term being sus
pended upon payment of costs. This was on September the 17th.
On September the 30th, 1963, the defendant, Hezekiah Watkins,
paid said costs and fine in full.
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1500 .
THE COURT:
All right, that certified abstract may be admitted
in evidence and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-50.)
MR . WATKINS:
May it please the Court, the Defendants would like to
now offer in evidence what has heretofore been marked Defendants’
Exhibit 4, for identification, which is a pamphlet which we say
has been identified for the record already by witnesses Charles
Evers, Reverend Edwin King, Betty Poole, and other Plaintiffs’
witnesses as pamphlets, — one of the pamphlets used in connec
tion with the boycott, which was sponsored by the NAACP and
others of these plaintiffs as a part of the demonstrations in
volved in this lawsuit.
THE COURT:
All right, that may be admitted in evidence and be
marked.
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, will you note my objection. I don’t see
any relevancy in this at all.
THE COURT:
What was that?
MRS. MORRIS:
I don’t see the relevance in this particular exhibit
at all. Defendants have not put in any permanent defenses,
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1501 .
they have merely entered a denial.
THE COURT:
I will overrule the objection. Let it be marked with
the same corresponding number.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-4.)
MR. WATKINS:
Now, I offer in evidence what has been marked as
Defendants’ Exhibit 5 for identification, which is a similar
pamphlet, similarly identified by Plaintiffs’ witnesses hereto
fore in this record.
THE COURT:
All right, let it be entered in evidence and be
properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-5.)
MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, Defendants’ Exhibits 6, 7, 10 and 3 are
similar in nature, having been identified by the Plaintiffs’
witnesses. The only possible difference is Exhibit 7 which
does bear on the same subject, but the witness Evers did make
the statement that the National Organization did not approve of
the issuance of that pamphlet by the Local Organization. That
is the only difference in those Exhibits.
MR. BELL:
We make the same objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
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1502 •
All right, I, of course, don’t have this clearly
enough in mind to make any evaluation at this time, but I’ll
admit it in evidence and study it in connection with my notes.
It may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibits as D-6, D-7,
D-10, and D-3.)
MR. BELL:
Mr. Watkins, would you read over again the various
Exhibits that you are offering at this time?
THE COURT :
As I understand it, these were Exhibits that had been
previously offered for identification. All right, give him a
list of them please.
MR. WATKINS:
Number 4, number 5, number 6, number 7, number 10,
and number 3.
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, let the record show also that, to the
best of my recollection, 4 and 5 were never identified by any
of the witnesses. They said they may have seen something
similar to them.
MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, it is my recollection that some witnesses
said that, but that others did identify each one of those. At
least one witness identified each one of them.
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THE COURT:
That’s my recollection; that both of you are correct,
that some of them didn’t identify them and some of them did, and
I will overrule the objection. It may be admitted in evidence
and be properly marked.
MR. WATKINS:
Now, if it please the Court, Defendants would like to
offer in evidence the deposition of the Plaintiff, Reverend
Ralph Edwin King, taken on September 20, 1963, together with
additional answers filed by him under date of January 29, 1964,
in connection with the same deposition..
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, we would object to that. Reverend King
is available as a witness. There is no showing that he is un-of
available and the purpose/depositions or answers to interroga
tories in accordance with the rules is that they may be used for
the purpose of cross examination —
MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, may I be heard on that?
THE COURT:
Yes.
MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, Reverend King has been on the stand and
has been cross examined, but I am introducing this under Rule
26(d)(2), which provides that the deposition of a party , and he
1504 .
is a party, may be used by adverse party for any purpose.
THE COURT:
I’ll overrule the objection.
MR. WATKINS:
Now, there are two separate documents, Your Honor, well
they both bear the same Exhibit number.
THE COURT:
Let me see that. What would be the next number?
THE CLERK:
The next number will be 51.
THE COURT:
All right, this deposition -oi fleverend King may be
admitted in evidence and be marked Defendants’ Exhibit 51 and
the answers of Reverend King to these interrogatories, one
hundred and eleven in number, may be admitted in evidence and
be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibits as D-51 and
D-52.)
MR. NICHOLS:
We would like to call John Ray.
THE COURT:
Who did you say?
MR. NICHOLS:
I beg your pardon, Your Honor, we would like to
call as a witness John L. Ray.
(J. L. Ray, Dir.) 1505.
THE COURT:
All right, John Ray?
MR. NICHOLS:
I believe his name is John L. Ray, Your Honor.
MR. JOHN L. RAY
being called as a witness by the plaintiff and after first
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Would you give your name and age and address to
the Court Reporter?
A. J, L. Ray, 44, address, 222 Calhoun Street, City
of Jackson.
Q. Now, Mr. Ray, by whom are you employed?
A. The City of Jackson, Police Department,
Q. How long have you been with the Police Department
in the City of Jackson?
A. A little better than twenty-two years.
Q. Do you presently hold any rank with the Police
Department?
A. Ido.
Q. What is that?
A. Deputy Chief of Police.
Q. Did you hold that rank during the period from May
15, 1963, through the balance of, or rather through the
J . L. Ray, Dir 1506
date of today?
A. I did.
Q. Are you familiar with the streets of Jackson,
Mississippi?
A . Iam.
Q. Do you know whether there is a street named Farish
Street?
A . Yes sir .
Q. Are you familiar with that street?
A . I am.
Q. Is there a street names Livingston Road?
A . Yes sir .
Q. And is there one named Ridgeway?
A . Yes sir.
Q. Are you familiar with those?
A . I am.
Q. Is there a street called Pascagoula Street?
A . Yes sir .
Q. Are you familiar with that street?
A . I am .
Q. Are there streets called Rose Street and Deer Park,
Street in the City?
A . Correct.
Q. Are you familiar with those streets?
A . I am.
J . L. Ray, Dir 1507 .
Q. Is there a street called Dalton Street in the City
of Jackson?
A . Yes sir.
Q. Are you familiar with that?
A. I am.
Q. Were you on duty on May 31, 1963?
A . I wa s .
Q. Now, at that time when you were on duty were you
dressed in your police uniform?
A . I wa s .
Q. Now, do you know of a church called Farish Street
Baptist Church here in the City of Jackson?
A . I do .
Q. Tell the Court where that church is located, if you
would?
A. It is located at the intersection of Farish and
Church Street on the southwest corner.
Q. Now, briefly describe the street known as Farish
Street?
A. Farish Street is, I would say, in the center of the
City of Jackson. It’s a narrow street, runs north and south.
It is about twenty-five feet in width, has sidewalks on each
side, and North Farish starts at Capitol Street; South Farish
/
is on the other side of Capitol Street. That’s the 100 block.
Q. Where is the Baptist Church located in relation to
J . L. Ray, D i r . 1508.
Capitol Street?
A. It is about six blocks, I believe it is seven blocks
from Capitol Street on Farish.
Q. Now, Capitol Street, does it intersect Farish Street?
A . It does.
Q. Capitol Street would run which way?
A . Ea st and west.
Q. Now, did you have occasion to be in the neighborhood
of the Farish Street Baptist Church on May 31, 1963?
A. I did.
Q. Now, what, if anything, happened at that place while
you were there?
A. They had quite a gathering at the Farish Street
Baptist Church. In fact of the business, it was an overflow
crowd. At about 4:30 P.M. they began to flock out of the
Church; they blocked Farish Street and Church Street and they
got in a formation and started marching south on Farish Street
toward Capitol Street. I had a detail of police officers at
the intersection of Hamilton and Farish; that is at the
beginning of the 400 block. When they started their march,
we formed a skirmish line across Farish Street from sidewalk
to sidewalk. They were marching toward us chanting, singing,
carrying small American flags and placards.
Q. Now, pause there and let me ask you this question,
to describe the formation you referred to that the people
J . L. Ray, Dir 1509 .
were in?
A. Well, there was a group of about twenty marching in
columns of twos on the sidewalk. Immediately following those,
they were in columns of six or eight, completely taking up
the west sidewalk and more than half of Farish Street used by
vehicular traffic.
Q. Now, Farish Street at that point; describe whether
or not it has, -- you mentioned the sidewalk, does dt have
ewalks on both sides of the street or one?
A. It do es have sidewalk s on both sides of the street.
Q. At that point , — you mentioned Fari sh Street
lier of b<;ing twenty-five feet in width, is that the
approximate width of the street at that point?
A. Approximately, yes.
Q. Now, are there any buildings along the way at that
point on Farish Street?
A. Yes sir, itTs buildings.
Q. Commercial establishments?
A . That *s right.
Q. All right, sir, you mentioned a group of people
walking on the sidewalk and you gave a total. Now, you men
tioned other people following them in columns of sixes. Would
you make an estimation of the crowd at that time?
A. About four hundred.
Q. Four hundred people?
J. L. Ray, Dir. 1510
A.
Q.
skirmi sh
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
south of
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yes sir.
Now, you pulled your police officers up in a
line, is that correct?
That is correct.
Now, which way was this crowd moving?
They were moving south on Farish Street.
Did you set your line up north of that crowd or
that crowd?
I was south of the crowd.
In other words, they were marching toward you?
That is correct .
All right, go on with your story at that point,
plea se .
A. As they approached this skirmish line that we had
set up across Farish Street at Hamilton Street, using a port
able loud speaker I inquired if any of the group had a permit
to parade. They ignored my order and continued moving toward
this skirmish line. I asked that the second or third time and
by that time they had reached the skirmish line and the leader
of the group pushed into the police officers, and he was hold
ing his night stick in an outward position.
Q. Who was holding the night stick?
A. Lieutenant Wilson.
Q. The police officer was holding the night stick?
A. That is correct.
J. L. Ray, Dir. 1511.
Q. All right, sir.
A. And the leader of that group moved into this night
stick and he continued to hold it, and he ignored my order as
to whether or not he had a permit. Then I told those who
would disperse and move on peacefully they would be allowed to
do so. I gave that order two or three times, using this port
able loud speaker .
Q. At that point, you asked if they had a permit to
parade, and did anyone answer you?
A . They did not.
Q. Did the formation stop?
A. It had to stop, yes.
Q. It stopped at the skirmish line?
A . That*s right.
Q. Now, at that point you told them to disperse, is
that correct?
A. I told those who would disperse and move on peace
fully that they would be allowed to do so; that those who
remained would be arrested and charged with parading without
a permit, and I would estimate that about eighty-five of them
did disperse and the rest were placed under arrest. The
leader of this group seemed to be very persistent; he was
trying his best to get through that line.
Q.. Do you know who the leader was?
A. I do
J . L . Ray, Dir 1512.
Q. Do you know his name?
A. Ido.
Q. Did you know him by sight at that time by that name?
A. I did.
Q. And, what was his name?
A. Willie Ludden.
Q. Did you arrest people on that date?
A. I did.
Q. And at that place?
A. I did.
Q. Do you have any total of the number of the people you
arrest ed?
A. Three hundred and twenty-two.
Q. Were all of them adults?
A . No sir .
Q. Do you have any breakdown on the figures as to
adults and juveniles?
A. Seventy-eight of the three hundred and twenty-two were
adults, the rest were juveniles.
MRS. MORRIS:
I would like for the record to show what the wit
ness is reading from.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Letts clear up the record, from what are you read
ing, Captain Ray?
J . L. Ray, Dir. 1513 .
A. Just some personal notes I made.
Q. What was the occasion of you making those notes?
A. You told me to refresh my memory, and I made these
not es.
Q. And how did you refresh your memory?
A. By the official reports made at the time of the
arrest s.
Q. Now, by a matter of subtraction there, the total
that you gave me of three hundred and twenty-two, total
arrested; seventy-eight adults, that would leave approximately
a total of two hundred and thirty-four juveniles, if my addi
tion is correct, is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. All right, as concerns Willie Ludden, you stated that
he was the party who walked into the night stick being held by
Lieutenant Wilson, is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. At that point, did you notice Willie Ludden when he
was arrested, if he was arrested?
A. After he was arrested, he was passed on through the
line. I did not see him after that.
Q. In other words, you lost visual contact with Ludden
after he was arrested, is that correct?
A. That is correct. I was concerned with these others.
Q. Up to that time did you see any force used by a
J . L. Ray, Dir 1514.
police officer on Willie Ludden?
A . I did not.
Q. Now, after you had placed these people under arrest,
what next happened at this location?
A. After they were placed under arrest and we started
to loading them into the transportation that we had. They
begaft to jump up and down and shout and chant and they stam
peded, defying our orders. They went into Hobson*s Alley and
we had enough police officers to block the alley off and we
kept them there in Hobson*s Alley until we transported them to
jail.
Q. You mean after you arrested these people, placed
them under arrest, they stampeded?
A . Yes sir.
Q. Did they give you an explanation of that?
A. They were in the street there on Farish Street and
on the sidewalk; had the street blocked and the sidewalk
blocked. After we started loading them, after we loaded the
first two trucks, then they stampeded; they got to shouting
and chanting. One of the group said "follow me" and they ran
from us, I mean they j-ust wouldn*t stand there.
Q. Were they attempting to get away from you?
A. They were resisting correction.
Q. Now, Chief Ray, were these people transported to a
jail?
J . L . Ray, Dir 1515.
A . They were .
Q. How were they transported?
A. We used trucks that were furnished by the City
Engineering Department, Water Department, and Sanitation
Department.
Q. All right, sir, what type of vehicles were furnished
you by the Sanitation Department?
A. Garbage trucks.
Q. Now, did you have occasion to make a visual inspec
tion of those trucks?
A. I did.
Q.. Was that prior to the loading of the prisoners or
after the loading?
A. Prior to the loading of prisoners.
Q. Would you state to the Court the condition of those
trucks at the time you saw them?
A. They were new trucks.
Q. 1*11 ask you this question, was there any evidence
that they had been used for the hauling of garbage at that
time, prior to that time?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I would object to the form of these
questions. He has been leading the witness for some time now.
THE COURT:
Yes, 1*11 sustain the objection
J . L. Ray, Dir 1516 .
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. What, if anything, did your inspection of this truck
reflect?
A. They were new trucks, never been used.
Q. And, Captain Ray, you stated that the prisoners were
taken away. Do you know of your own knowledge where they were
taken?
A. I do .
Q. All right, sir, where were they taken?
A. At the temporary jail facility located at the fair
ground.
Q. All right, sir. You stated you knew, the location of
Livingston Road and Ridgeway Street in the City of Jackson, is
that correct?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Would you describe these streets briefly, please?
A. Livingston Road is a blacktopped street. It begins
at Woodrow Wilson and extends north to Northside Drive, which
is approximately two miles. Ridgeway Street is about half way,
V 'i
intersects about half way between Woodrow Wilson, and Nort-h..sid«
Drive or about a mile from Woodrow Wilson. Itts about twenty-
five to thirty feet in width, and Ridgeway Street runs north
and south. Itts an offset there at Livingston Road in Ridge
way Street and itts about the same width.
Q_. Are there any sidewalks on either one of these streets?
J . L . Ray, D i r . 1517 .
A. No sir, there*s no sidewalks, there is a gravel por
tion on each side that is used by pedestrian traffic.
Q. Did you have occasion to be on Livingston Road on
May 31, 1963?
A. I did.
Q. And, what, if anything, occurred while you were out
there on that day?
A. I was dispatched by police radio that a group of
people were marching south on Livingston Road. They were
carrying placards and singing and chanting, causing quite a
disturbance and blocking vehicular traffic, so I proceeded to
the intersection of Ridgeway and Livingston Road; told the
radio operator to send a detail of men to meet me there. . When
I arrived, this parade was about a half a block from that
intersection. They were in columns of six, some on the gravel
portion, others taking up about half of Livingston Road.
Using this portable loud speaker, I inquired if any
of those had a permit. They indicated that they did not.
After giving that order the second or third time, I then told
who would
those/disperse and move on peacefully, that they would be
allowed to do so. I estimate that about thirty to thirty-five
did disperse and move on across the railroad track. Those who
remained were placed under arrest for parading without a permit.
Q. What type of street is Livingston Road at that point,
is it two-way traffic! or does it have four lanes, or what?
J . L. Ray, Dir 1518
A. Two-way traffic.
Q. One lane for each direction?
A . Correct .
Q. At the time you arrived and observed the situation,
you describe, was vehicular traffic impeded in any manner on —
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to the form of these questions.
THE COURT:
I sustain the objection.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Do you have any record of the number of parties you
arrested on that date?
THE COURT:
You may tell the effect, if any, it had on traffic.
You can describe the situation. He is very articulate, go
ahead.
THE WITNESS:
A. Yes sir, it did impede the flow of traffic; directly
behind this group of paraders was a school bus. It was
traveling south. There was a Mississippi Power & Light truck
traveling north. Both had to stop. The school bus was fol
lowing slowly behind the group and after they were stopped
there at Ridgeway and Livingston Road, I inquired of the
driver if he was part of the parade. He said, no he was just
trying to get by. We made arrangements for him to turn to the
J . L Ray, Dir 1519 .
east on Ridgeway Street and let him get on by.
Q. Do you have any record as to the number of parties
arrested that day?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How many people were arrested?
A. Ninety-four.
Q. Do you have any record as to a breakdown between
adults and juveniles arrested on that day?
A. Out of the ninety-four, sixteen were adults.
Q. When you subtract that, that leaves seventy-eight
juveniles, does it not?
A. That’s correct, sir.
Q. Now these parties, after they were arrested were, —
what next did you do, if anything?
A. After they were arrested, they were loaded into
transportation that had been furnished and transported to the
temporary jail facility at the fair grounds.
Q. Was there, -- what force, if any, was used on the
arrest of these parties?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to the form of these questions
THE COURT:
Overruled.
THE WITNESS:
A. No force was used. They all got into the wagon
J . L. Ray, Dir 1520 .
themselves.
Q. They obeyed your command?
A. They did, yes sir.
Q,. Now, you said that you were familiar with Pascagoula
Street in the City of Jacksop?
A. Tes, I am.
Q. Would you briefly describe that street, please?
A. Pascagoula Street intersects with Poindexter Street.
Pascagoula Street is a very narrow street. It has pavement, I
would say, of about fifteen feet wide. It has a portion on
either side which is gravel that is used as a sidewalk. It
runs east and west.. Pnindexter Street is about twenty feet
wide and it runs north and south and it has a sidewalk on one
side of the street. Thatts on the east side of the street.
Q. Now, Chief Ray, were you on duty on June 1, 1963?
*. •
A . I was.
Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform?
A . I wa s .
Q. Did you have occasion to be in the vicinity of
Pascagoula and Poindexter Streets in the City of Jackson on
that day?
A. I did.
Q̂. Would you describe what, if anything, occurred while
you were there?
A. Yes sir, we had received information that a group was
J . L. Ray, Dir 1521.
going to parade. I received this by police radio. I went to
the intersection of Lynch and Terry Road and had a detail of
police officers with me, so this group did form coming out of
the Masonic Temple which is located on Lynch Street and they
started marching east on Lynch street. When they reached the
intersection of Poindexter Street, they could see the police
detail at Terry Road and Lynch, so they turned —
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, we object to that and ask that it be
stricken. As to what who could see, the witness has no know
ledge of that
THE COURT:
I’ll overrule the objection.
THE WITNESS:
A. They turned then north on Poindexter Street and I was
informed by police radio that they had turned back east on
Pascagoula Street.
So we left this intersection of Lynch and Terry Road
and went to Minerva and came across a walk there that is built
for pedestrians; came in behind this group of marchers, they
were at that time on Pascagoula Street. Pascagoula Street dead
ends -down there and when they saw us approaching them, they did
a to-the-rear march, started marching back west on Pascagoula.
Using this portable loud speaker, I said, "This is a police
order, stop," so they did stop. Then I inquired if any of them
J . L. Ray, Dir 1522 .
had a permit to parade and all in unison, they shouted nNo
I then told those who would disperse and move on peacefully
that they would be allowed to do so. I guess about fifteen,
maybe, did disperse and those who remained in formation, com
pletely blocking the street, there was no room for any traffic
to move at all, they were placed under arrest for parading
without a permit.
Q. Now, describe that formation for me, please.
A. Well, they were in a column of about five and they
were marching, as I have already described, first they were
marching east on --
Q. I understand where they were marching, but at the
point that you stopped them, the point I am talking about,
just tell me how they were marching right prior to your
stopping them.
A. They were marching in columns of five and they were
marching west and completely taking up the paved portion of
Pascagoula Street.
Q. Now, do you have any record with you to indicate how
many parties were arrested at that time?
A. Ninety-two arrested.
Q. Do you have any record that would indicate how many
adults and how many juveniles were in the group?
A. Of this ninety-two, thirteen were adults.
Q. By subtraction, that would leave seventy-nine
J . L . Ray, Dir 1523
juveniles, is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, after you arrested the parties, placed them
under arrest what, if anything, did you do next?
A. Using the transportation that was furnished, they
were transported to the temporary jail facility at the fair
ground.
Q. Chief Ray, you testified that you were familiar with
the streets in the City of Jackson known as Rose Street and
Deer Park Street, is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Are these streets anywhere near each other?
A. They intersect.
Q. -I see. -Would you describe those streets, — the
location of that intersection?
A. Rose Street is a very narrow street. It begins at
Capitol Street, — West Capitol Street and extends from West
Capitol Street south to Lynch Street, and I would say it is
about twenty feet in width. Deer Park Street is an even, —
Q. Did you say that Rose Street has sidewalks or not?
A. It does have sidewalks.
Q. Does it have them on both sides, or one side or —
A. It has sidewalks on both sides. Deer Park Street is
also very narrow. It is a paved street and east of Rose
Street Deer Park Street does not have sidewalks; west of Rose
J . L. Ray, Dir 1524 .
Street it
north and
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
and Deer
does have sidewalks. It
south.
I see. Now, were you on
I was.
Were you dressed in your
I was.
Did you have occasion to
Park Streets on that date?
runs east and west and Rose
duty on June 13, 1963?
police uniform?
be in the vicinity of Rose
A. I did.
Q. What, if anything, occurred when you were at that
location at that time?
A. Mr. Nichols, 1*11 have to start back a little before
I arrived at that intersection. At the Farish Street Baptist
Church there was quite a number of out of town photographers
and newspaper men. They were gathered in front of this church
and it was pretty evident that something unusual was going to
happen because of the number of newspaper men and photographers,
So I observed from the intersection of Minerva and Pearl Street,
•They were at the Pearl Street AME Methodist Church, which is
located on Pearl Street just east of Rose Street. Shortly
after noon they flocked out of this church, getting into Pearl
Street and they started marching east on Pearl Street and I was
informed that they had turned onto Rose Street, — north on
Rose Street. I dispatched for a detail of men to meet me at
the intersection of Rose and Deer Park Street.
J . L. Ray, Dir 1525.
When I arrived there the beginning of this parade was
about at Banks Street, which is a very short block away from
Rose and Deer Park Street. They were in columns of threes
marching right down the center of Rose Street, making it
impossible for traffic to use Rose Street at all. There was
a group that followed this parade using the sidewalks; had
ganged up on the -parches -of these houses along Rose Street.
When this parade reached the intersection of Rose and Deer
Park, we had formed a skirmish line across Rose Street and
using this portable loud speaker, I went through the same pro
cedure that I have already described on these other parades
and, over on the porch at 608 Rose Street, the porch was just
packed, just full of people; they were singing, shouting,
hollering and chanting and after we made the arrests all of
that group had flags.
They were encouraging the group out in the street to
defy law and order by telling them to hold onto the flags,
donit give up the flags and they did hold to the flags, but
that was the only way that they did resist. We had no trouble
at all with the paraders; after we got the flags they obeyed
the orders, but our trouble there was on the porch of 608 Rose
Street. That group was very disorderly; they were shouting
remarks to the police, encouraging this group we had arrested
so I approached this group on the porch and told them that they
were going to have to quieten down, they were disturbing the
J . L . Ray, Dir 1526 .
whole neighborhood and if they did not I was going to have to
arrest them for disturbing the peace.
Q. Now, Chief, how did you speak to that group of people?
A. Using a portable loud speaker.
Q. This portable loud speaker that you keep referring to,
is this something that magnifies your voice?
A. It is an amplifier, yes sir, operated by batteries.
Q. And it is possible for parties some distance away to
hear?
A . Yes sir .
Q. All right, sir, go on.
A. They kept shouting and singing and the more I said
the louder they would get, so after about the third time to
approach this porch and tell these people, I told them they
were under arrest because the entire group was shouting and
singing and I told the police officer in the detail to arrest
them. Some of them got on the porch and they stampeded, and
even took over this person’s house; went inside and the officers
were trying to block the doorway. They would just push by the
officers any way they could get. It was a very disorderly and
defiant group of people.
Q. Do you know Ralph Edwin King?
A . I do .
Q. Did you know him on that date?
A. I did
J . L. Ray, Dir 1527 .
Q. Did you see him on that date?
A. I did.
Q. And where did you see him?
A. He was on the porch, he was a part of this disorderly
group.
Q. That was at what street number?
A. 608 Rose Street.
Q. You saw King on the porch at 608 Rose Street?
A. I did.
Q. Now, do you know John Salter?
A. I do know him.
Q. Did you know him on that date?
A. I did.
0. Did you see him on that date?
A. I did.
Q. Where did you see him?
A. On the porch at 608, he was a part of the disorderly
group.
Q. You stated that this gathering on the porch was
yelling encouragement to the group that you had arrested.
A . That’s right .
Q. Did they address any remarks to anyone else?
A. Yes, they were hollering at the group to hold onto
your flags, dontt give them your flags.
Q. Did they address any remarks to the police?
J . L . Ray, D i r . 1528 .
A . Y e s .
Q. What type of remarks were they?
A. “You injured this girl, you injured this girl,” and
it seemed to be that one girl that lived in that house was
injured. In my opinion, it was caused when this group stam
peded and took over the house.
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I ask that that be stricken since the
witness doesn’t know what it was caused by.
THE COURT:
Yes, you can’t give your opinion. Itll sustain the
objection.as to the opinion.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. With reference to the injuring of any party on that
porchj this girl that you referred to, did you see her?
A. I did not, I did not see her.
Q. All right, sir. Now, with regards to the parties
that you arrested for parading that day and the parties you
arrested for the other charge, disturbing the peace —
A. Disturbing the peace.
Q. What, if anything, did you do with them after you
arrested them?
A. They were transported to the temporary jail facility
at the fair ground.
Q. Now, you stated you saw John Salter on this porch
J. L . Ray, Dir 1529.
there at the house?
A. That*s correct.
Q,. Did you have occasion to see him anytime later in the
day?
A. I saw him, yes sir, I did.
Q. All right, would you state the circumstances?
A. Officer Blakeney had jumped on this porch and he was
trying to keep the crowd from crowding into this house. He had
John Salter and Reverend King in custody and at that time he
was having a tussle with the two of them. Finally, I saw them
on the ground.
Q. Saw who on the ground?
A. Officer Blakeney and John Salter. Then they got up
and was moving, as I recall, moving toward the sidewalk of
Rose Street, continuously tussling. He was resisting arrest
and one of the officers, using his night stick, hit John
Salter on the head. That conquered him.
Q. I see. Did you take any action as a result of Mr.
Salter being hit on the head?
A. Yes sir, I told two officers to take him to the
University Hospital to see if he needed medical attention.
Q. And was that done?
A . Yes sir, it was.
Q. Now, you testified that you know of a street called
Dalton Street here in Jackson, is that correct?
J . L. Ray, Dir 1530
A . I do .
Q. Would you briefly describe that street as to its
location, width, and so forth?
A. Dalton Street is about thirty feet in width, runs
north and south and it is in the southern part of the city.
It does not have sidewalks.
Q. Approximately how wide is it?
A. About thirty feet, I would estimate.
Q. Is it paved or unpaved?
A. It is a blacktopped paved street .
Q. And there are no sidewalks or any walking area there?
A. Yes sir, but a lot of the yards do take up the part
that ±_s used, — they use a portion of the street a s a side-
walk.
Q. A party walking on Dalton Street then has to walk
where?
A. They walk along the curb line of Dalton Street.
Cj. Now, state whether or not you were on duty on June 7,
1963?
A . I was.
Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform?
A . I was.
Q. State whether or not you had occasion to be in the
vicinity of Dalton Street in Jackson, Mississippi, on that date?
A I did
J . L . Ray, Dir 1531 .
Q. All right, sir. What, if anything, occurred while
you were on Dalton Street at that time?
A. About 4:30 P.M. I received a call that there was
about to be a riot at Battlefield Park and to proceed to that
location. I dispatched for police officers to meet me there
at Battlefield Park. When I arrived there were two groups of
people, one was over in the playground area near the swimming
pool. There was another group moving toward that direction
and they said, uLet us have, let us have them," so I immediately
saw the danger of a riot and cleared the entire Park, told
everybody to leave the Park and everybody obeyed my order.
One group left walking west on Porter Street.
Porter Street runs alongside the Battlefield Park. They walked
there across Terry Road and they stopped at Jackson Boulevard
and, I believe the name of that little street is Handy Street.
They were ganged up out into the street, blocking the street
and so at that time they were ordered to disperse and to move
on up the street. They did and when they reached the intersec
tion of Jackson Boulevard and Dalton Street they turned north
on Dalton Street, but they were standing out JLn the street, the
portion used by vehicular traffic.
I rode up beside this group and told them that they
were going to have to walk along the curb line, so they immedi
ately moved over to the curb line and started walking along the
curb line, but after they had walked about a block they again
J . L. Ray, D i r . 1532 .
got out into the street and was blocking the portion of the
street that was used by vehicular traffic. At that time they
were walking along the east curb line of Dalton Street. After
they had marched about two blocks, or walked about two blocks
there, they crossed the street, very slowly, then they started
walking along the west curb line and they partially blocked the
t o
street again and I told them they were going to hav^ walk, —
and I said, "I’m telling you my last time you are going to have
to walk along the curb, you can’t block this street.” Well,
they got up to the 1400 block of Dalton Street, which is about
half way between Barrett and Florence Street and they stopped
and gang_ed up out into the street extending about fifteen feet
into the street,
I felt that I had gone far enough and at that point
I arrest ed them for obstructing the street .
Q. Do you have any record to indicat e how many you
arrest ed on that date?
A. I do.
Q. All right sir, how many were arrested?
A. There was twenty-one arrested.
Q. Does your record indicate how many were adults,
if there were any juveniles?
A. There were some juveniles, but my information notes,
I don’t have that.
Q. All right. Now, I am going to ask you to go back to
J . L . Ray, Dir 1533 .
the Rose and Peer Park incident and ask if yop have any record
that would indicate how many parties were arrested on that date?
A. Eighty-four arrested and thirty-nine of that eighty-
four were adult s .
Q. And the balance would be juveniles, is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. That would be approximately forty-five. Now, you have
testified that you are familiar with Farish Street and that you,
— and you have described Farish Street; 1*11 ask you whether or
not you were on duty on June 15, 1963?
A. June the 15th, yes sir, I was.
Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform?
A. I was.
Q. 1*11 ask you whether or not you knew by name and sight
the late Medgar Evers?
A. I did.
Q. And, now, I think the record already indicates that
June 15th was the day of the funeral of Medgar Evers, is that
correct ?
A. That is correct .
Q. Now, what, if anything, did you have to do with the
funeral procession?
A. I followed the funeral procession, — I followed
along the line and, of course, the men under my supervision
were placed along the route that this funeral procession was
J * L. Ray, Dir 1534 .
to follow to keep anybody from butting into it or interfering
with the funeral procession at all.
Q. Chief, would you briefly describe this procession as
to the route it took; the volume of people in it and so forth?
A. This funeral started at the Masonic Temple located on
Lynch Street, which is the 1000 block of Lynch Street. They
proceeded east on Lynch Street — and you make a turn there to
kindly r- northeast and then you go ahead, and then it is known
as Terry Road. Then Terry Road, without interruption, goes in
to Pascagoula Street. At Pascagoula Street they continued
marching east on Pascagoula Street until they reached the inter
section of Pascagoula and Farish Street; they turned north on
Farish Street, crossing the main streets, Pearl, Capitol, Amite,
and Griffith Street, to a funeral home there, Frazier and
Collins Funeral Home.
We had police officers, I would estimate a hundred,
scattered throughout this route to make it safe, and to control
traffic and make it a non-hazard and not interfere with the
funeral procession. Now, at the beginning of this procession
there was several cars and an ambulance; it was an unusual
thing, and then about five thousand people walking and marching.
They had a permit for this occasion.
Q. Now, were you able to observe whether or not this was
a reverent and orderly group or not?
A. At that time, it was, yes sir.
J . L. Ray, Dir 1535 .
Q. And, you said you followed the parade?
A. I did.
Q. Were you afoot?
A. No sir, I was in an automobile and I tailed the parade,
what we call tailing the —
Q. Bringing up the rear?
A. Thatts right, that’s correct.
Q. Now, did you start, — when you started your car did
your route follow the same route as the marchers?
A. It did.
Q. So then I presume you terminated your ride at the
funeral home, is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, you stated that the police were stationed along
the route to keep traffic from interfering with the line of
march, is that correct?
A. That’s correct, yes sir.
Q. Was there any traffic, that is either pedestrian or
vehicular traffic, allowed to intersect that procession at any
point?
A. No sir.
Q.. Now, what, if anything, happened when you got to the
funeral home, Chief?
A. I drove by the funeral home and I turned; they were
going through I imagine, — and they dispersed — they were
J . L . Ray, D i r . 1536 .
dispersing very peacefully it seemed like, so I proceeded on
north on Farish and turned on Monument Street, then turned back
south on Mill Street. Just about that time I received informa
tion that a group was rioting, moving south on Farish Street.
I immediately proceeded to Capitol and Farish Street and
ordered those men who had been stationed along this route to
meet me there. When I arrived at the intersection of Farish and
Capitol Street, it looked like about a thousand people running,
and shouting, and hollering. It was a very disorderly thing.
Using this portable loud speaker, I said a permit
was issued for this and it was supposed to be an honorable
thing — ,#¥qu are supposed to be honoring, the dead and what you
are doing is very dishonorable.” They began to holler “Shoot
us, shoot us, shoot us.” They said, ”You killed him, shoot us,
shoot us, shoot us,” and about that time, there wasn’t but about
six police officers there, I continued to try to control the
groupjby talking to them, by telling them that what they were
doing was very dishonorable.
Q. Let me interrupt you. Whery were these people standing
at the time you were talking to them?
A. They were in the center of Farish Street, all up and
down the street, just completely taking over the sidewalk and
the street and, in a little while, quite a number of police
officers did get there and before they got there, they started
throwing rocks, and bottles, and bricks from the alleys and in
J . L. Ray, Dir 1537 .
buildings. Several police officers were hit by them and it
looked like we were going to lose control of the crowd. It
wail a very toaichy situation^ and we couldn’t understand what
had caused it.
I looked up into the windows on the second floor on
the west side of Farish Street, — on the second floor window,
and leaning out these windows, I could see John Salter and King,
who seemed to be shouting encouraging remarks to them. They
were very disorderly and we got this formation and we started
— in this -skirmisli line - started moving toward them. They
were throwing rocks and bricks at us at that time.
Q. Were the police throwing any rocks and bricks back
them?
A. No sir .
Q. Yes sir, go on.
A. And, as we would make contact with this group that
would not move, we would arrest them. Every time we would
arrest one, they would resist, kick, stomp; I don’t know, they
just acted like wild people. I believe that day we arrested
around twenty-two, fourteen police officers were injured, one
police officer was hit on the head — helmet — with a brick
and he was hospitalized, and that was about as disorderly a
group as I have ever seen.
Q. Now, as you moved these parties back you would arrest
the group that would not move back?
J . L • Ray, Dir 1538 .
A. That is correct. Let me go a little further. We got
on, we backed them on up to past the funeral home and we held
our skirmish line, not wanting to interfere with those who were
trying to honor the dead. We held our skirmish line across
there and they were about half a block from us and they were
icontinuously throwing bottles, but the only way, — « they
couldn*t reach us from the distance that they were throwing
them, but they hit in front of us and the glass would splatter
and hit you .
Mr. John Doar, with the Justice Department, I recog
nized him. I called his attention to this group. I told him,
”Th$;s is the kind of people we have to deal with and you seev'V:
what they are doing.”
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I would object to any conversation.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
THE WITNESS:
A. I said,
and what they are
this announcement
group and, by the
that this was Mr.
down into the gro
”They are supposed to be honoring the
doing is very dishonorable.” After ma
several times, Mr. Doar went down to t
way, they did throw at him, and I anno
Doar with the Justice Department. He
up and he tried to quiet them down; we
dead
king
he
unc ed
went
con
tacted several other leaders of these groups and one of them
J . L. Ray, D i r . 1539 .
was Attorney Young. He did go down and try to talk to them,
and finally Mr. Doar came to me and he says, "I believe we have
got them quiet and I think if you will pull your officers out
of here everything will be over with.11 I accepted his recom
mendation. We moved out of there and the only other trouble we
had was when the water truck went down to clear up all the
glass, and rocks, and bottles. They did have some trouble with
them throwing at them.
Q. Now, were any Negro persons arrested that day?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Were any white people arrested that day?
A . Yes sir .
Q. Now, Chief, state to the Court whether you were on
duty on May 30, 1963?
A. Yes sir, I was on duty.
Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You stated you know Ralph Edwin King by sight, is
that correct?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
you know
I do.
Did you know him by
I did.
You stated that you
him by sight on that
sight on that date?
know John Salter by sight,
day?
Did
A I did
J . L. Ray, D i r . 1540 .
Q-. Do you know one Joan Trumpower?
A. I do.
Q. Did you know her by sight on that date?
A. I did.
Q. Did you have occasion to see all or anyone of those
persons on May 30, 1963?
A. I did.
Q. Where did you see them?
A. In front of the Federal Building, this building.
Q. JTJiat’s the Federal Building in Jackson, Mississippi?
A. That*s correct.
Q.. Commonly known as the Post Office?
A. Thatts correct, yes sir.
Q. All right, sir, relate the circumstances under which
you saw these people at the Post Office on that date?
A. I was at Headquarters and had received information that
there was quite a gathering around the Post Office and to pro
ceed to that location. I arrived here, I imagine it was about
4s30, and standing on the second level in front of the building
facing, they were facing north, was fourteen persons, lined
along the second level of the steps there and there was about a
thousand people gathered in and around this building, this Post
Office building, some of them were on the north side on Capitol
Street and some on the south side, some behind these people and
they were making such remarks and seemed to be in a very ugly
J . L. Ray, Dir. 1541 .
mood; that "They are not praying, they don*t know how to pray;
they are not trying to do anything but cause trouble," "If
youTll let us handle them, wetll handle them," and I could see
that there was an immediate danger there and I felt it necessary
to take some action and do it quickly to avoid a riot.
They were directing their remarks to this group that
had gathered there on the steps, so I walked up to this group
and told them that they were blocking the entrance to this
building and that their presence there was causing a breach of
the peace. I ordered them to leave and they just kept standing
there. Then I asked them if they understood my order and some
indicated they did, and I asked if they were going to obey the
order. After going through this the second time and none of
them obeying the order, they were arjiesJt-ed. f o r breach of the
peace.
After they were arrested, all of them moved to the
paddy wagon except Reverend King. When he was told that he was
under arrest, he immediately fell to his knees and it was neces
sary to carry him and place him in the wagon.
Q. Now, Chief Ray, would you state whether or not you
were on duty on May 29, 1963?
A. Yes sir, I was.
Q. Do you remember whether or not you were wearing your
police uniform on that day?
A . I was
J . L. Ray, Dir 1542 .
Q. Do you know Doris Erskine?
A. Ido.
Q. Did you know her on May 29, 1963?
A. I did not know her by sight at that time, no sir.
Q. Did you later learn her identity?
A. I did.
Q. Did you have occasion to see Doris Erskine on May 29,
1963?
A. I did.
Q. Would you relate the circumstances under which you saw
her on that date?
A. Yes sir, I was in front of H. L. Green’s, which is on
Capitol Street — it’s on the north side of Capitol Street.
^ Now, let me Interrupt you here, please sir. We have
mentioned Capitol Street many times. For the sake of the record,
would you briefly describe Capitol Street?
A. Capitol Street is the main street in the City of
Jackson. It begins at the east end, I am starting at the
east end —
THE COURT:
Let’s take about a fifteen minute recess.
(After a fifteen minute recess, the proceedings continued
as follows:)
MR. NICHOLS:
q . I believe you were describing Capitol Street, do you
J . L . Ray, D i r . 1543 •
remember where you were?
A. Yes sir. Starting at the east end of Capitol Street,
or the Old Capitol, traveling west, the first five blocks is
known as East Capitol Street until you reach Farish Street, and
that is all downtown business section. The next three blocks
is known as West Capitol; that’s also downtown business section
until you reach Gallatin Street; that’s eight blocks of down
town business section. Then Capitol Street extends west about
four miles until you reach the overhead bridge and it changes in
to Clinton Boulevard. It is the main street in the City of
Jackson. The downtown section is about sixty feet wide; has wide
sidewalks on each side in the business section.
Q. Now, do you know of your own knowledge, transposing
your figure of blocks into mileage, how far it is from the Old
Capitol on the east to Gallatin Street on the west?
A. Eight tenths of a mile.
Q. Now, to get back to the matter of Doris Erskine, on
5_29-63, before I interrupted you you had started to state that
you were in front of a store by the name of H. L. Green.
A. Yes sir, H. L. Green’s is on the north side of Capitol
Street in the downtown business section. It’s in the 200 block
of East Capitol, and I was standing in front of H. L. Green’s
when I was approached and told that Mr. Gus Primos, manager of
Primos No. 1, wanted us in his place immediately.
Q. What type of place is —
J . L . Ray, Dir 1544 .
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to what anybody told him and ask
that it be stricken.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Is Primos No. 1 a place of business?
A. Yes sir, it’s a place of business, it’s a private place,
it is a restaurant.
Q. Now, in relation to H. L. Green’s, what is the location
of Primo s No. 1?
A. It’s about, just guessing, it’s about six or eight
doors down, or it is west of Primos on the same side of the
street. Primos is also on the south side of Capitol Street in
the 200 block of East Capitol.
Q. Primos is on which side of Capitol Street?
A. North side.
Q. All right, sir, when you received this information
what, if anything, did you do?
A. I walked up to the entrance of Primos Restaurant and
he summoned me in, Mr. Gus Primos.
Q. Bid you enter the restaurant?
A. I did.
Q. What, if anything, took place when you were there?
A. In the presence of Doris Erskine and others, he said,
"I have ordered these people to leave my place of business and
they will not leave.”
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I will object to any conversation that
doesntt have to do with any of the parties in this lawsuit. It
i s!, hear say.
THE COURT:
Ifll overrule the objection, I donTt think so.
THE WITNESS:
A. And he ordered them to leave again and they just stood
there. So at that point I asked them if they understood the
manager of this establishment and they indicated they did. I
said, "Are you going to obey it?" They just stood there. I
then ordered them to leave and asked them if they understood my
order. They indicated they did. I said, "Are you going to
obey?" They did not and at that time I arrested them for tres-
pa s sing.
Q. Prior to being summonsed to the restaurant by the
owner, had you been in it on that date?
A. No sir.
Q. I believe you stated this is a privately owned busi
ness.
A . Yes sir.
Q. Now, with reference to any police officer that might
J. L. Ray, Dir. 1545 .
have been on the outside on the street, do you have policemen
J . L. Ray, Dir 1546 .
on this street in Jackson?
A. Yes sir
Q. Were there police on the street on that day?
A. Yes sir .
Q. In relation to the normal number that you keep on the
street, was the number of police on the street on that day
larger or smaller than your normal group?
A. Larger.
Q. Were there any particular reasons for it?
A. Yes sir. Traffic that day had been unusually heavy.
There was quite a number of unfamiliar faces in town and we had
extra traffic officers up and down the street.
Q.. Chief Ray, I believe you, — I donTt know whether you
did or not, but I am going to ask you this question. Do you
know whether or not there is a school in the City of Jackson
known as Lanier High School?
A. Yes sir.
Q.. Do you know the location of it?
A . I do .
Q., Would you briefly tell me where it is located?
A. Thatts in the northwest part of the city on the south
west corner of Maple Street and Whitfield Mill Road.
Q. Is it small, or medium-size, or a large school?
A.- It's a large school, high school.
Q. Now, were you on duty on May 30, 1963?
J « L. Ray, Dir 1547 .
A . I was.
Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform on that day?
A . I was.
Q. Did you have occasion to be in the vicinity of Lanier
High School in Jackson, Mississippi, on May 30, 1963?
A. I did.
Q. All right, sir, what, if
visit to Lanier High School on that
A. I had received informatio
orderly group on the campus of Lani
field Mill Road and Maple Street .
and I would estimate at least five
students on the campus and on the s
shouting —
anything, occurred on your
dat e?
n that there was quite a dis-
er High School facing Whit-
I proceeded to that location
hundred what appeared to be
idewalks there. They were
Q. What time of day was this?
A. About noon.
Q. About noon?
A. Yes sir. They were shouting and singing; there were
newspapermen and photographers there and it seemed to be that
they were putting on some kind of show for them. They would
even get on cars, some of them would stand up on cars and make
speeches. I contacted Professor Buckley who is the Professor
of that school, hoping that they could handle the situation.
So the first thing that I did, I summonsed Headquarters and
told them to block off the area and keep everybody out of that
J . L. Ray, D i r . 1548 .
area. They were singing, shouting, chanting and causing quite
a disturbance. I felt since it was a school that we would let
the officials of the school try to handle the situation, and it
seemed that they could not. Then a little later as these people
would leave, we would not let them come back to the school. We
would send them on home.
Q. These are the students you are talking about?
A. That’s right. Then about, I’d guess about 12:30,
this group started throwing bottles and rocks at the police
officers. So seeing that a riot was developing, I called for
extra help and we immediately tried to move this group back
into the school building.
Q. Excuse me, was this on a normal school day?
A. It was, sir.
Q. And during schiool hours?
A. It wa_s. An-d., -w-e had quite a bit of trouble moving
them in, but we finally succeeded in getting most of them into
the school. Three police officers were injured that day. And,
Lieutenant Jones, he was around near the rear of the building
at what is known as the workshop of Lanier High School, they
were throwing planks, bricks, anything they could get their
hands on, toward Lieutenant Jones and three other officers so
Lieutenant Jones went after one of the fellows that had been
throwing at him. They pulled the door down on him inside the
shop, trapping him inside, and all of us had our hands so full
J . L . R a y , D i r . 1549 .
we couldn’t hardly get to him, and it appeared that some of the
teachers assisted him in getting out of there, and he came out
with one that had been throwing, but he got away. I don’t
believe we arrested but three that day.
Q. Now, you stated that you blocked off the area. Was
that around the school?
A. Yes sir, within a block or two-block area. It was
handled by Chief Armstrong then who is in charge of traffic.
Q. If a student wanted to go home, leave this group and
go home, you allowed him to do that?
A. Yes sir, we worked very closely with Professor Buckley
after we had gotten them into the school, then he let them out
anyway that he saw fit and we assisted him in any way that we
could.
to go
that
here
agent
Q. Now, what about the newspapermen, were they allowed
in there?
A. No sir, nobody but FBI agents and police officers.
Q. There were FBI agent s there?
A. Yes sir, they were present in all of these places
we have had trouble.
Q. You mean each one of these that you have reiterated
in your direct testimony that you could recognize FBI
s as being present and witnessing these arrests?
A . Yes sir .
MR. BELL:
J . L . Ray, D i r . 1550 .
Your Honor, we are going to object to all of this
line of testimony. Plaintiffs didn’t put on any testimony
concerning this Lanier High School incident as a part of any
program, demonstrations, or anything, and that is completely
irrelevant to any ;issues.in this case.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
MR. BELL:
If he is going to do this, we can put on any number
of disturbances at schools, hospitals, and — »>
THE COURT:
Well, this seems to be about the same time. I’ll
overrule the objection. What was the FBI doing on this case?
THE WITNESS:
They were just observing sirl I imagine they had
received orders to do that.
MRS. MORRIS:
I would like that stricken as it is what he imagines.
THE COURT:
Yes, tell us what you know please.
THE WITNESS:
Yes sir, they were present —
THE COURT:
Did they try to help you in any way?
THE WITNESS:
J . L . Ray, Dir . 1551 .
No sir, I can’t say that.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Chief Ray, do you know the location of a store by the
name of F. W. Woolworth Company here in Jackson?
A. Ido.
Q. Would you state where that is located, please sir?
A. F. W. Woolworth is in the one hundred block of East
Capitol. It is on the north side of the street about half way
in the block between Farish and Lamar Streets.
Q. Are you familiar with that store?
A, I am.
Q. Could you describe the physical outlay of that store?
A. It faces south. It has four double-door entrances and
it is about 125 feet from wall to wall and about 125 to 150 feet
in depth. It has rear doors. Inside the store they have coun
ters running east and west and north and south and they are
piled high with merchandise.
Q.. Now the doors you described, the main doors in front,
of what material are they constructed?
A. They are glass, double doors.
Q. Does the store have any type of windows?
A. Glass windows.
Q. Were you on duty on May 28, 1963?
J . L . Ray, i)ir . 1552 .
A . Yes sir, I was.
Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform on that day?
A . I was.
Q. Bid you have occasion to be in the vicinity of F. W.
Woolworth Company on that date?
A. I did.
Q. All right, sir, what, if anything, occurred at the
time you were at that particular store on that date?
A. We had received information that there was trouble at
the F. W. Woolworth store so I went to the F. W. Woolworth Com
pany and was in front of the building with three other police
officers. I contacted the manager, I believe his name is Mr.
Braun; inquired of him as to what was the trouble. He informed
us that everything was under control. At that time, I told him
that we were available to assist him in any way possible; we
would be there when he needed us. He thanked us and went back
inside.
Q. At that time did he request your help?
A . He did not.
Q. Now, did anything else occur?
A. We remained in front of the store and I sent a plain-
clothed officer inside since I had been informed that there was
trouble inside. I told him to observe and see what was taking
place.
Q. What was that officers name, Chief?
J . L . Ray, D i r . 1553 .
A . J . L . Black.
Q. All right .
A. After he had been in there a little while he said that
the people were a little rowdy and they were jeering at a group
that was at the lunch counter. I told him to go and get the
manager, I wanted to talk to him again and I did talk to Mr.
Braun and I told him that I understood they were a little rowdy.
He said, "They are a little noisy, but everything seems to be
under control." I said, "Bo you need our assistance?" He said,
"No, not at this time."
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I want to object to all of the testimony
that has to do with'conversation. Would you note it as a con
tinuing objection?
THE COURT:
Yes, you may have a continuing objection to conversa
tions at this time, which I think are pertinent to this inquiry
and the objection is overruled.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. That was the second time you talked to the manager,
is that correct?
A. That is correct. Mr. Black, officer Black, continued
to stay inside and observe. Shortly, he came out with two
people he had arrested. I asked him what the trouble was and
he said they were fighting.
J . L . Ray, D i r . 1554 .
Q. Do you happen to know the names of those two people?
A . I do .
Q. Who were they?
A. Memphis Norman and Bennie Oliver.
Q. Do you know the race of Memphis Norman?
A. He is colored.
Q. And the race of Bennie Oliver?
A. He is white.
Q. All right, go on please.
A. He turned those two over to the officers out there
with me. They transported them to the main jail facility.
Then shortly after that he arrested another one. I don’t remem
ber his name, but --
Q. Do you remember his race?
A . He was whit e.
Q . All right .
A. It seemed that he had grabbed some girl off of a
stool in Woolworth Company and proceeded to throw her out of
the store. I then, again, contacted Mr. Braun; told him that
it seemed there was a lot of trouble in there and it looked as
though he needed our assistance. He said, "Well, I think it
has quietened down some other than a lot of jeering and talking,"
and he said, "I have a call into the main office in New York
and as soon as I hear from them, I’ll let you know."
The next I heard from Mr. Braun was he told me he
J . L . Ray, Dir 1555 .
was closing the store. He did close the store, locked the door
and all the people came out.
Let me go back just a little bit. In the meantime,
I was contacted by Dr. Beittel and Mercedes Wright.
Q. Did you know them at the time?
A. I did.
Q. Do you know by whom Dr. Beittel was employed, for
example?
A. President of Tougaloo College.
Q. Do you know who Mercedes Wright was?
A. A youth worker with the NAACP from Atlanta, yes.
Q. You were contacted by these two parties?
A. That is correct. Dr. Beittel said, “There is trouble
inside and you need to be in there." I said, "Dr. Beittel, I
just got through talking with the manager and he said it was
just a lot of jeering, that everything seemed to be pretty well
under control; that as soon as he heard from New York hefd let
me know as to what he wished us to do." I said, "It seems that
those in there that are causing all the trouble are from
Tougaloo College and you are President of that College, don*t
you have some control over them?" At that time he told me that
school was out and he had no control. And I said, "Well, 1*11
tell you what you do, you go contact Mr. Braun and tell him that
if he wants us in there, weTll be glad to go in." I did see him
later and asked him if he had contacted him and he said, "I did."
J . L. Ray, Dir 1556 .
Q. All right, stop at that point. You say that Mercedes
Wright, — did you have any conversation with her?
A . Yes .
Q. What was that?
A. She wanted to know why we didn*t go in there and, as
I recall, I explained to her that this was a private establish
ment and the manager was a responsible person and we do not make
it a practice to interfere with anybodys business unless they
request us to do so.
I contacted Dr. Beittel again and asked him if he had
found the manager and he said he did and I asked him what he
found out and he said the manager told him he was waiting on a
call from New York.
Q. Now, in your testimony you got up to the point where
the manager was locking the door. I presume that was the front
door that he was locking.
A . That* s right .
Q. You were still in front of the store?
A. That is correct.
Q. Outside?
A. That is correct.
Q. All right, sir, go on at that point and tell us what,
if anything, happened next.
A. It seemed that all the people did come out. Then I
was contacted by Dr. Beittel and he said, "Those people in there
J . L. Ray, D i r . 1557 .
want to come out, will you protect them?*1
Q. Did you know what people he was talking about?
A. I assumed that he was talking about all those that had
been causing all the trouble, that were the sit-ins.
Q . All right .
A. I said, "Certainly we will, we will even provide trans
portation," and I called for the paddy wagon to transport them
wherever they wanted to go. They came out, we surrounded them,
and the paddy wagon arrived and they refused to get in the paddy
wagon. Then Reverend King —
Q. Now, hold on just a moment. At the point they came
ooit, you said you surrounded them. Was there any particular
reason why you surrounded them when they came out?
A. No sir, we just got around them in case anybody did
want to cause them any harm.
Q. Were there other persons there on the outside of the
store?
A. There was people up and down the street, jes sir.
Q. Did you estimate the crowd as to how many were there
or anything like that?
A. We kept the people moving as best we could. There
wasn't too many.
Q. Now, you said you called for the paddy wagon. Was it
your intention at that time to arrest these people?
A. No sir, to assist them to their location, their
J . L . R a y , D i r . 1558 .
destination.
Q. You offered them transportation to where they wanted
to go?
A. That is correct.
Q. And they refused this?
A. That is correct.
Q. How did they get away from the store?
A. Reverend King came in his Rambler station wagon and
part of them got in the wagon with him. We assisted him in
getting away from there with these people.
Q. Now, Chief Ray, at the time prior to the manager lock
ing the doors and while everybody was still in Woolworth Company,
at the point where you stood was it possible for you to look
through the store and to see the people at the counter?
A. No sir.
Q. Why could not you do that?
A. The counters are piled high with merchandise and there
was quite a number of people inside which blocked the view com
pletely .
this
Q. Have you had occasion to go in
A . Yes sir.
Q. Did you have occasion to go in
incident on May 28?
A. Following that incident, I did
Q. Did you determine the point at
that store recently?
it around the time of
go in the store.
the lunch counter where
parties were seated?
A . Yes sir .
Q. Are you able to state whether or not you could see
from the point where they were seated to -the outside through
the window?
A. At one point there you can see partially out the aisle
provided there are no people in the asile. With any people in
the aisle you cannot see out at all.
Q. I see. One final question, Chief Ray, have you had
occasion to examine the records of the Police Department to
determine a total number of arrests in the demonstration cases
from approximately May 25 to the end of the summer of 1963?
A . Yes sir .
Q. Do you have that total with you?
A. 1,092.
Q. Thank you, sir .
MR. NICHOLS:
May it please the Court, that is all the direct
examination.
MRS. MORRIS:
I didn’t get the last — for all those 1,092.
THE COURT:
May the 25th to the end of the summer.
CROSS EXAMINATION
J. L. Ray, Dir. 1559.
MRS. MORRIS:
J . L . Ray, Cr . 1560 .
Q. What group of the police are you attached to?
A. I am in charge of the Patrol Division, that is the
three shifts that work the twenty-four hour tour of duty.
Q. You are not in the traffic group then?
A. Not under traffic, no. The men under my supervision
do assist with traffic.
Q. But who is in control of the traffic group?
A. Deputy Chief Beavers Armstrong.
Q. Now, during these incidents you testified to, you were
working with the traffic detail, weren’t you?
A. I was working with the traffic detail and the Patrol
Division, yes.
Q. Now, on May the 3lst in the area of the Farish Street
Church, how long were you in the area of the Farish Street
Church before arrests were made?
A. I had been in that area prior to the arrests on
Livingston Road at 3:30. I returned to that location about 4:00
o’clock.
Q. But you had been in the Farish Street Church area
earlier?
A. That is correct.
THE REPORTER:
Excuse me, I didn’t understand the question, you had
been where?
MRS. MORRIS:
He had been at the Farish Street Church area earlier.
THE REPORTER:
Thank you.
MRS . MORRIS:
And you came back to the Farish Street Church area.
THE WITNESS:
A. After the Livingston Road arrests —
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. How many people were with you, how many policemen?'.
A. At that time, I would say, at the beginning I would
say around 50 to 75, including traffic officers.
Q. And where were these 50 to 75 policemen stationed?
A. I would say around 50 or more at the intersection of
Hamilton and Farish; the others were in the area of the Farish
Street Baptist Church.
Q. Now, that intersection is about 150 yards from the
church?
A. About that.
Q. Approximately how many blocks, do you remember?
A. Well, there^ Hobsons Alley and Oakley Street and
Church Street .
Q. But these are not full blocks?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, your detail was at that intersection, were there
J. L. Ray, Cr. 1561.
police also at Mill Street?
J . L . Ray, C r . 1562 .
A. At Mill Street?
Q. Yes, if you could say?
A. I don’t know.
Q. You don’t know whether there were any there?
A. Chief Armstrong was-in charge of the detail of traffic
control. He assigned those men. I do not know.
Q. Now, you were looking toward the church, looking north
I believe it is on Farish Street?
A. That is correct.
Q. And there were another group of policemen stationed on
the other side of the church, weren’t there?
A. There was some traffic officers at Farish and Monument
There were also some at Farish and Church I believe.
Q. So that the Farish Street Church area was surrounded
by policemen?
A. That is correct.
Q. And they were surrounded by policemen at least a half
hour before these arrests were made?
A . Yes.
Q. Now, as soon as the group began to leave the church,
that’s when you formed your line across the street?
A . That is correct .
Q. And, how long were these people on the street before
you placed them under arrest, before you asked them to stop?
A. Long enough for them to walk from the Farish Street
J . L . Ray, C r . 1563 •
Baptist Church in parade formation to Hamilton Street.
Q. How much time do you think that took?
A. Not long.
Q. Can you give me your best estimate?
A. Le as_ than five minutes, I would say. After they
started, I would say less than five minutes.
Q„ From the time they exited the church they were
arrested within about two minutes from the time they hit the
street, weren’t they?
A. I don’t know, it would be within two to five minutes,
yes .
Q. Now, at the time your police line barricaded the
area, the first people in this group were meeting, there was a
similar line to the other side of the church, wasn’t there?
A. Repeat the question?
Q. At the time that you had formed a — what did you
call your line?
A. Skirmish line.
Q. Skirmish line across the street, there was a similar
skirmish line opposite you, wasn’t there? By a group of police
on the other side.
A. No .
Q. ¥ou don’t recall that?
A. No .
Q. Do you recall being able to see down there to see what
J . L . Ray, C r . 1564 .
the police were doing?
A. That was a traffic detail assigned there, they were --
Q. Do you inow what that traffic detail was doing?
A . I do not.
Q. So you were not in a position to say what was going
on down there?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, you asked the group to stop and you told some of
them that, — you told them that those who wanted to dissemble
and leave could.
A. My words were "Those who want to disperse and move on
peacefully, will be allowed to do so."
Q. And, some of the group began to move?
A. Some did disperse.
Q. Where did they begin to move to?
A. They moved on out of that area, some of them went into
private businesses there.
Q. And some of them went into the streets around the area?
A . Yes.
Q. And then you placed them under arrest, the remaining
group?
A. Those who remained in parade formation, I did, yes.
Q. And they were arrested for parading without a permit?
A. That is correct.
Q. Some of them, you said, Aegan to move into Hobsons
J . L, Ray, C r . 1565 .
Alley?
A. They stampeded, just like a bunch of wild people, yes.
Q. Now, under the circumstances that existed,
policemen on all sides of them, Hobsons Alley was one of the few
places that any group could go, wasn’t it?
A. That’s right, they could move into Hobsons Alley, but
we surrounded that too.
Q. So you had Hobsons Alley under control?
A. At that time I had other officers there, which was the
Sheriff’s office and the Highway Patrol.
Q. How many of the Sheriff’s officers were there?
A. I would imagine twenty-five and possibly fifty Highway
Patrolmen by that time had arrived.
Q. So that was a total of over one hundred policemen?
A. That is correct.
Q. And what area were they covering?
A. They came in by Hamilton Street and Hobsons Alley.
Q. Then they were within, let’s say, a three block area,
weren’t they; these hundred and some odd policemen?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, why were a hundred and some odd policemen in that
area at that time?
A. This was just after the Lanier High School incident
and when those people went wild, went to throwing rocks and
bottles and, since it is the duty of police officers to preserve
J . L . Ray, C r . 1566 .
the peace, maintain law and order; we didn’t know what this
group of people would do and it was necessary to have that many
because they resisted and stampeded into Hobsons Alley.
iQ. Well, you didn’t know this before the police were —
A. I did not, but we were trying to be prepared for such
an incident.
Q. Well, you were prepared to arrest them before they
left the church, weren't you?
A. We are prepared to arrest anybody that violates the
law. If they had not violated the law, they would not have been
arrested .
Q. Well, let’s see if we can’t do it this way, Chief Ray.
You knew that there were a group of people in the church?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And you were stationed in that area to make sure that
they didn’t take part in any demonstration?
A. That is not correct.
Q. That’s not?
A. No .
Q. You had a hundred and fifty people there just in case
something should happen?
A. We were there to preserve the peace, maintain law and
order.
Q. And your idea of preserving the peace, isn’t it sir,
is to keep these people out of the street or taking part in any
J . L . Ray, C r . 1567 .
demonstration.
A. My idea of preserving the peace is to prevent riots
and to prevent law violators from violating the law and if they
do violate the law it is my duty, as a police officer, to pre
serve the peace, maintain law and order, to arrest them.
Q. And you had anticipated that there would be trouble?
A. I didn’t know, yes, and that is the reason we had that
many officers there in the event that it did happen.
Q. Now, did the group ever really get a chance to leave
the church? You said the front of the group came toward you,
did the back of the group ever get out of the church?
A. Yes. You mean, I don’t understand — the 400 or more
in the parade all left the church and moved —
Q. They had left the church?
A. That is correct.
Q. Had they left the church before they were put under
arrest?
A . Yes .
Q. You had placed them under arrest, now before they were
put under arrest, before you asked the front part of the group
to stop, wasn’t the back still proceeding?
A. Let me give you the whole detail. No one was arrested
until they had been given the order and asked if they had a per
mit to parade -~
Q. Now, I understand that, but. —
J . L . R a y , C r . 1568.
A. and I walked up and down this group of about 400
people, making this announcement, using an amplifier or portable
speaker —
Q. Before that you asked them to stop —
A. — Let me finish this, just a minute. Then I told
those who would disperse and move on peacefully that they would
be allowed to do so . I gave them ample time to do that . I told
those who remained in formation that they would be arrested and
charged with parading without a permit. I gave them ample time
to disperse, those who wanted to. I asked them in an informa
tive way so that those who did not know that it was a violation
of the law to parade without a permit, that they could disperse.
Then, those who remained were arrested for parading without a
permit. After we started loading them, they stampeded, defying
law and order, resisting, went into Hobsons Alley like a bunch
of wild people.
Q. Now, when you asked them to stop, when they first
approached you, you said they were some few feet in front of
you and hadn’t reached the police line.
A. That is correct.
Q. The group was still proceeding down the street?
A . That is correct .
Q. And they were walking on the side of the sidewalk,
were they not?
A. There was a group of about twenty in what you might
J . L . Ray, C r . 1569 .
call the first section of the parade, led by Willie Ludden.
Then, immediately following them, there was this 350 or more,
following them in columns of six to eight in the street and com
pletely taking up the sidewalk.
Q. And they were still coming out of the church at this
time?
A. That is correct.
Q. So that actually they were stopped before the group
had actually gotten there?
A. The first one was stopped. He couldn’t go any further.
Q. So as a result, the rest of the group backed up —
A.. By that time the others had arrived and —
Q. And there was no place forward where they could go,
is that not a fact?
A. That is a fact.
Q. So that they began to approach one another and the
group backed upon itself because there was no other area that
they could go into, is this not so?
A, They were, at that time after they all had been
arrested, they were into the street and in columns of twos.
What you are trying to make it appear that, they were in
columns of twos, and the reason they were ganged up in the
street is because they couldn’t, but that is not correct.
Q. Was there any place for them to go, Captain Ray?
A. Not when they reached the skirmish line, no.
J . L . Ray, C r . 1570 .
Q. Not when they reached the skirmish line, that^s what
I»m trying —
A. Thatfs right. They were in this formation, twenty
people in columns of twos, on the sidewalk, will not take up but
just about as much space as from here to that bench. Now, this
whole --
Q. How far apart were these twenty people?
A. They were just about that far apart.
Q. Do you want to tell me that in feet. She can!t take
down —
A. Maybe two and one-half to three feet.
Q. And you said they had a flag —
MR. NICHOLS:
If it please the Court, counsel interrupted the wit
ness right in the middle of a sentence.
THE COURT:
Yes, let him finish his sentence.
THE WITNESS:
A. They will not take up — twenty people in columns of
twos, will not take up as much space as from here to that bench.
Then, immediately following them, in columns of six to eight in
the street of about 3i>-D to 375 will not take up the entire dis
tance from the church to where these others were. They were
in
arrested in the formation that they left/ when they got into
formation at the church
J . L . Ray, C r . 1571 .
Q. You mean from the time that they were put under
arrest nobody moved?
A. After they were, — oh sure, they moved. Now you know
they didn’t stand
Q. They were milling all around the area then?
A. That’s right.
Q. That’s what I’m trying to --
A. They weren’t, wait a minute now, they weren’t
milling around the area until they stampeded like a bunch of
wild people and went into Hobsons Alley.
Q. They stood absolutely still when they were put under
arrest? *—
A. No, they did not.
Q. -- Then they went into Hobsons Alley where they stood
still some more?
A. They didn’t stand absolut-ely still. They didn’t stand
at attention, rigid attention, no.
Q. Were they moving about at that time?
A. They were shouting, chanting —
Q. I didn’t ask were they shouting, I asked —
A. — Singing, and they did move some. They talked to
each other. It was quite a disorderly group.
Q. So after you put them under arrest, there was some
movement going on?
A. That’s correct.
J . L . Ray, Cr 1572 .
THE COURT :
How far would
of this group, say
how far was that person
you say it was from the back of the line
the northernmost person in the group,
from the church?
THE WITNESS:
You.r
side of Oakley
church.
Honor,. I would say about,
Street. They were all at
— they were all this
least a block from the
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Now, where did you have the trucks that were used to
transport them standing?
A. I didn’t have them.
Q. You had trucks there?
A. I calle-d for transportation at Headquarters. We had
some that the police officers came in furnished by the Engineer
ing Department. Then we had —
Q. Wait, tell me what were these --
A. They were covered trucks, about a ton truck. They would
transport about twenty to thirty.
Q. Now, you had some of these in the area?
A. The police officers arrived in those and we also had
our regular patrol wagon. It was there; it won’t take care of
very many. Then I called Headquarters and told them I needed
transportation and needed it fast. Then shortly after that the
garbage trucks arrived.
J . L . Ray, C r . 1573 .
Q. How many garbage trucks arrived?
A. I don’t know.
Q. You don’t remember?
A. No, I sure dontt. Enough to take care of the 322.
THE COURT:
J)i4 -I understand yxsiu to say that these garbage trucks
had not been previously used before for hauling garbage, or had
they been used?
THE WITNESS:
They were brand new trucks, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
I understand, but had they been used?
THE WITNESS:
They had not been used at all for garbage.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Did you inspect each _ojie of them, Captain?
A. I didn’t inspect each one of them individually. I
did inspect the trucks outside and they were brand new trucks.
Q. To the best -of;, your knowledge as to the ones you
inspect ed?
' A. That’s right. The ones -that I inspected were brand
new trucks. I did check with Mr. Mixon and inquired of him —
Q.. I didn’t ask you what you checked with Mr. Mixon.
MR. NICHOLS:
May it please the Court, we think that this officer
J . L. Ray, Cr . 1574 .
has got a right to show whether he made an investigation which
will reveal the answer to that question.
THE COURT:
Yes, I think so. Answer the question.
MRS. MORRIS:
If tie Court please, —
THE COURT:
Overruled. Answer the question.
THE WITNESS:
A. I inquired of Mr. Mixon, who is in charge of the
Sanitation Department, and he said that every truck that he
sent was brand new; had rtever been used to haul anything in.
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, may I move that that be stricken. That
is self-serving here »«-
THE COURT:
Yes, I’ll sustain that motion to strike what somebody
said to you.
MRS. MORRIS:
That was to be the tenor of my objection.
Q. What type of garbage trucks were these, how were they
made, constructed?
A. I’m not too familiar with that. They are the pressure
type; they have doors on the side and they have a vacuum inside
that can be used to push garbage back. I am not that familiar
J . L . Ray, C r . 1575 .
with garbage trucks.
Q. Are they closed on all sides?
A. They are.
Q. Bo they have any windows in them?
A. They have this opening on the side that you can, --
they have no windows.
Q. ThatTs a door on the side?
A. ThatTs correct.
Q. And once the door is closed there is no ventilation
in the truck, is there?
A. I donTt know of any. I don*t think the door was ever
closed. I never did see it closed.
Q. Other than the door, there is no ventilation in these
trucks. These trucks are constructed to move materials not
people?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, when you were on Livingston Road, I think this
was the same day -«~
A. That was the same day.
Q. You said that somebody called you — that you had
received a radio message --
A. That is correct.
Q. That there were a group of people on Livingston Road?
A. That is correct.
Q. And you went to Livingston Road?
J . L . Ray, C r . 1576 .
A. That is correct.
Q. And you put up your skirmish line?
A. Well, we didn’t have the skirmish line completely, —
we didn’t have enough officers to form a complete skirmish line
at that time. Later I did. They had arrived there before we
had a complete line across the street.
Q. They had arrived there? Who were they?
A. The paraders.
Q. They were on Livingston Road, I understand. And you
said you didn’t know anything about this until you got a call
on the radio.
A. With the officers that we had, we did spread across
the street at that time.
Q. And you took your detail and you went up to Livings
ton Road where you encountered these people?
A. No, we waited. They were about a half a block when
I arrived from the intersection of Ridgeway and Livingston.
Q. When you got to the intersection, they were coming
toward you —
hand,
A. That’s correct.
Q. — And then is when you put a line across the street?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, you didn’t know anything about this group before-
did you?
A. No, the only thing I knew was what I had been informed.
J . L . Ray, C r . 1577 .
Q. After you put up your skirmish line, then you asked
them if they had a permit to parade?
A. That is correct. They were singing, shouting, had
placards and flags. It was very evident that it was a parade
and they had people gathered on porches observing --
Q. And you had stopped them first though^ before you had
asked them about this. You had stopped them with your skirmish
line?
A. This had already taken place when I stopped them.
Q. Now, how many policemen did you have on Livingston
Road?
A. I imagine we had a total of forty by the time we got
them loaded. To begin with, I imagine there were fifteen.
Q. Were they all at one end of Livingston Road* or were
they interspersed throughout the area?
A. They were all at that particular location.
Q. They were all down where your skirmish line was?
A. That’s right .
Q. Now, you had been called by a patrol car, hadn’t you,
to your knowledge, were you?
A. I was given that information by radio.
Q. Do you know where the radio call came from?
A. I do not, at that time. I later contacted a car in
that area and told them to observe the group and they informed
me about the group as I was enroute to this location.
J . L . Ray, Cr . 1578 .
Q. So there was a police car in this area as this group
proceeded down Livingston Road?
A. Yes, there is a police car in most any area in the
City of Jackson at any time.
Q. There were more than usual in that area at that time,
weren’t there?
A. No .
Q. There were not more policemen than usual during the
summer?
A. Not until I summonsed them to meet me at Livingston
and Ridgeway.
Q. Now, let me see if I can — you understand me. There
were more policemen than usual in the area of Farish Street and
in the area of Livingston Road, than is usual, wasn’t there?
A. I don’t know as I understand the question. If you
are asking me if there was more people in the area of Livingston
Road prior to my summons, my answer is no. After my summons,
my answer is yes.
Q. There are more there were more policemen in the
general areas that we were talking about during that time in
the summer than there are, for instance, now?
A. No, in other words, it’s the same amopnt working that
area now as it was that day prior to my summons for them to
meet me there.
Q. Since this summer have you had occasion to have 150
policemen in the area of Farish Street Church?
A. No .
Q. So that there were more policemen in the summer than
there are now?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, on June the 1st, which has to do with Pascagoula
and Poindexter, how many policemen were in the area at this
time?
A. About fifty.
Q. And where were they stationed?
A. As I testified to to begin with, we were at the inter
section of Lynch and Terry Road.
Q. Were you there before anybody was in the street?
A. I don’t, — possibly we were, yes.
Q. Do you know where your radio message that there were
a group of people coming down the street came from that day?
A. It came from Lieutenant Bennett.
Q. And where was the Lieutenant stationed?
A. He was on Lynch Street.
Q. Where on Lynch Street?
A. Near the Masonic Temple.
Q. He was stationed across the street from the Masonic
Temple, wasn’t he?
A. He was there observing, yes.
Q. And, how long had he been there?
J . L. Ray, C r . 1579.
J . L . Ray, C r . 1580 .
A. I don’t know.
Q. There was somebody stationed there at all times during
the summer, wasn’t there? Let’s just take June to simplify
matt er s .
A. Probably not at all times, but most of the time, yes.
Q. Most of the time?
A . Yes.
Q. Now, on June 13th you placed two groups under arrest.
You placed a group that were in a protest demonstration, you ar
rested a group of people who were on a porch. I think you gave
the address as 608 Rose Street. Bo you know whose house that
is?
A. It belongs to a Miles person, I don’t remember her
full name.
Q. Were you familiar with her before they were on that
porch?
A . No .
Q. Bo you know how tho se-p-eople came to be on that porch?
A. They were part of the group that flocked out of the
Pearl Street AME Church.
Q. But they were not in the group carrying flags or
posters in this protest demonstration?
A. They were not part of the parade.
Q. They were watching, — observing?
A. That is correct.
L Ray, Cr 1581 .J
Q. And you and your men went up on the porch at 608
Rose Street and arrested a group of them?
< • • i
A. That is correct.
Q. Bid you arrest Mrs. Miles?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you know where she was at the time?
A . I did not ♦
Q. So you didn*t ask to talk to her at that time?
A. I did not. I might add this though, if you would like,
we arrested Tommy Miles who did live there. He was arrested for
abusive language, resisting arrest, and distrubing the peace.
Q. On his porch?
A. That is correct.
Q. But Mrs. Miles'didn*t complain about the people stand
ing on her porch, did she?
A. I talked to her later. Would you like to know the
conversation I had with her?
Q. No, I asked you, before you made the arrest, had she
complained aJbxuit the people standing on her porch to you?
A. She did not complain.
Q. Now, this group that you arrested on Dalton Street who
had been at Battlefield Park, you said there were two groups in
Battlefield Park, one approaching the other?
A. That is correct.
Q. And the group that you arrested, I take it, were all
J . L . Ray, C r . 1582 .
Negro ?
A. They were.
Q. And what was the group who you said were approaching?
A. They were white. They came up in cars and they were
ready to go to battle with this group.
Q. Did you arrest either group?
A. I ordered the entire park cleared and they all obeyed
the order.
Q. Now, you apparently followed the group that you even
tually arrested, didntt you?
A. That is correct.
Q. You followed them as they went on their way?
A. I did not follow them. After they had ganged up and
blocked the intersection there at Jackson Boulevard and, I
believe, it is Handy Street, I went to that location and dis
persed them from blocking this entire street.
Q. And then you talked to them on three different occa
sions subsequently?
A. At that time there was about fifty of them. When they
reached the intersection of Dalton and Jackson Boulevard, then
Jackson Boulevard changes into Hair Street. About half of this
group went down Hair Street, the other half went north on Dal
ton Street. I mentioned to them three times to stay out of the
street and walk close to the curb.
Q. So, therefore, you talked to them on three occasions
J . L . Ray, Cr. 1583 .
You were not walking, I take it, —
A. I approached them, that’s right.
Q. You were in a car?
A. By automobile, correct.
Q. So you were following the group from the time they
left the park?
A. Well, if you want to put it that way, but I did not
follow the group at all. After, — the information was that
were
they had ganged up here at the intersection, and/completely
blocking that street, 'I went to that location. Then, as the
duty of a police officer, after they once had done this, I
felt it was my duty to see that they did not block the street
anymore.
Q. So you kept them under surveillance and talked to
them on three subsequent occasions?
A. After I saw that they did not want to do right, I
did, yes.
Q. That was the way you felt about it, that they did
not want to?
A. Well, it proved out that that was the way it was.
Q. Now, did you follow any other group from the park?
A . No, I did not.
Q. Just this one group?
A. I didn’t follow them from the park, as I have testi
fied —
J . L . Ray, Cr 1584 .
Q. Well, we disagree as to whether you followed them,
let’s get rid of the word. This group that you arrested, did
you have occasion to stop any other group before they left the
park? Or place any other group under arrest?
A. I did not .
Q. Just this one group of Negroes?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, these were a group of teenagers, weren’t they?
A. What day was that?
Q. June the 7th.
A. There was twenty-one arrested. As I recall, there
were teenagers in the group, and I believe it was about half
and half, I don’t recall; I don’t have that information.
Q. You have the information for all the others, but you
don’t have it for this day?
A. I may not have it for all the others. I have twenty-
one arrested here. Of course, I know some of the group, Jessie
Harris, he’s an adult, and Helen O’Neil, I believe she’s about
eighteen, I believe she would be considered an adult, and — -
Q. Do you remember all of them?
A. I don’t remember all of them, I sure don’t.
Q. And you don’t have any notes on how many adults or
how many teenagers were there?
A. No, I do know there were some adults in the group.
Q. When you ordered the park cleared, why did you do it?
J . L . Ray, Cr 1585 .
A. To avoid a riot.
Q. You thought there would be a riot with the white
people interfering with the Negroes in the Park?
A. I thought there would be a riot between these two
groups of people.
Q. Is this park generally used only by white persons
A. Correct .
Q. Now, on May 29th, you were on Capitol Street and
arr est ed this Doris Erskine in Primos Restaurant. Now, you
said you were standing in the area of Green’s. How many
policemen were in the area — not the area of Green’s,
t he .area of Capitol Street on that day?
A. Probably, I don’t know exactly, I’ll try to estima
it. P ro bably at the intersection of Lamar and Capitol, the:
were two traffic officers, and at West Street there were pr̂
ably two traffic officers. Probably six police officers, i:
cluding myself.
Q. Within how many blocks?
A. Within a block.
Q. Within a block?
A. Right .
Q. Were there more policemen than normal in the area
t hat day?
A. Yes .
Q. Now, Primos operates a restaurant, doesn’t he?
J . L . Ray, Cr. 1586 .
A. That’s correct .
Q. And he restricts his clientele to white persons?
A. I can’t answer that, but --
Q. Bid you ever see any Negroes in there eating?
A. Never have.
Q. Have you ever been in there?
A. Yes, I have been in there.
Q. Have you eaten there?
A. I don’t know, it’s been a long time. I think I have
eaten there .
THE COURT:
Are you at a convenient stopping place?
MRS. MORRIS:
Yes, I think so. I have quite some material —
THE COURT:
I figured you would. All right, we will just take a
recess for lunch until 1:30.
(After recess for lunch, at 1:30 P.M. the proceedings
continued as follows:)
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. On June the 15th, Captain Ray, you testified that you
had been in the area of the funeral home following the funeral
procession and you went some place else, and you got a call
there was trouble in the area and then you returned.
A. That is correct
J . L . Ray, C r . 1587 .
Q. So that what you described was happening after you
got back?
A. I tailed the funeral procession and I passed by this
funeral home and everybody seemed to be dispersing peacefully.
I went on past the funeral home, turned west on Monument Street,
then back north on Mill Street which, — Mill Street runs paral
lel with Farish Street — and at that time I was informed that
a group was rioting going south on Farish Street. I received
this information from Captain Lowrey.
Q. Was Captain Lowrey at the scene?
A. I beg your pardon?
ft. Was Captain Lowrey at the scene?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. So, you don*t know how —
A. So, let me complete this. So I asked Captain Lowrey
was that part of the group that seemed to be dispersing. He
said if they --
Q. I would object to anything he told you.
THE COURTS
Overruled.
THE WITNESS:
A. So he said "If they are dispersing, they are mighty
disorderly, hollering and chanting and just like a wild bunch,”
and he said, "They are headed toward Capitol Street.” So at
that time, I summonsed the radio and told them to tell the men
J . L . Ray, Cr. 1588 .
to come to Capitol and Farish Street and by the time I was there
they were almost to Capitol Street, and it was a wild group.
Q. During the time that you weren’t there, you don’t know
how it started of your own knowledge?
A . I do not .
Q. And you deployed your men to Capitol and Farish?
A. Those men who had been stationed along the funeral
procession route, yes.
Q. Were there already policemen in the area?
A. Yes, there were already policemen at Farish and Capitol
because that is a main artery.
Q. And there were State Troopers there that day, too,
weren’t there?
A. They were called in. After all this brick and bottle
throwing started, they were called in; they came to our assist
ance. We needed all the help we could get.
Q. Did you call them?
A. I did. I summonsed the radio and told them to come
to that area.
Q. Now you spoke about Mr. Salter and Reverend King,
you saw them leaning out the windows?
A. That is correct.
Q. Were there other people leaning out windows?
A. I recall one other person that I know leaning out the
window, I say leaning out the window; he was standing in the
J . L . R a y , C r . 1589 .
window .
Q. Were there people who were not on the street but up
stairs watching what was going on?
A. Yes, until the rock and bottle throwing started, then
all disappeared except those three that I saw.
Q. But there had been other people who were just stand-
ing ther e watching because there was apparently something to
watch? . .
A. That is correct, there was some people watching.
Q. Wa s it noisy?
A. Noisy, very noisy •
Q. So you don’t know what anybody was saying really, do
you, tho s e p eopie who were upstairs?
A. No , I do not, I can’t quote as to what they were say-
ing upstairs, I do not know because this group downstairs was
very noi sy.
Q. Now, there were a number of peopie in that procession
that were from out of town?
A. That is correct.
Q. And a number who hadn’t been in Jackson previously
during the week?
A. I can’t answer that.
Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, that there were
a number of strangers from out of town in that funeral proces
sion?
J . L . Ray, C r . 1590 .
A . I do know that.
Q. Now, on May the 30th, which is when the group was on
the steps of this building, the Post Office building, did you
make any arrests of the crowd that was standing around watching
them?
A . I did not .
Q. This is the crowd that was threatening the group that
was'standing on the steps.
A. I did not arrest them. After I determined the cause
of the trouble, I tried to remove that cause and after the cause
was removed, it was very peaceful again.
Q. And you determined that the people who were standing
on the steps were causing the trouble?
A. It proved that way, yes.
Q. Let me ask you this. On these arrests that you made,
that you testified to, about — for parading without a permit,
on each occasion you asked the group to stop and then you —
A. Well —
Q. Will you let me finish my question?
A. Pardon me.
Q. — You asked the group to stop. You told them that
if they wished to disband they could at that point, and then
the ones who remained were arrested for parading without a per
mit, and those who chose to go when yai said so were not
arrested for parading without a permit. Is that essentially it?
J . L . Ray, C r . 1591.
A. The only group that I asked to stop was the group on
Pascagoula Street that had run wild and was going back and
forth, and so forth. The other groups, they had to stop because
of the skirmish line. Then I would inquire in an informative
way if any of the group had a permit to parade, informing them
that it was a violation of the law to parade without a permit.
Then, I would tell those who would disperse and move on peace
fully that they would be allowed to do so, but those who re
mained would be arrested for parading without a permit.
Q. And the ones who had been parading but had chose to
disperse were not arrested for parading without a permit?
A. That’s correct. It is not the desire of a police
officer to arrest anybody and if they realize that they are in
violation of the law, I did allow them to go.
Q. But those who dispersed were not arrested for
parading without a permit?
A. Those who stood there and wilfully defied law and
order they were arrested.
Q. Now you didn’t answer my question, Captain Ray.
Those who dispersed were not arrested for parading without a
permit ?
A. That is correct .
Q. They had all been in the same group
A. That is correct.
Q. So that they were actually arrested
befo reha nd?
for not dispersing?
J . L . Ray, C r . 1592 .
A. That is not correct.
Q. Now, the incident you described at Lanier High School,
that had to do with high school students?
A. Yes .
Q. On their campus?
A. Yes .
Q. Of their high school?
A. Yes .
Q. They were students that attended Lanier High as far
as you know?
A. I'don’t believe, you said the arrests at Lanier High
School, I don’t believe —
Q. Well, the incident, as to the incident at Lanier
High School, it involved high school students?
A. That is correct.
Q. On their campus?
A. That is correct.
Q. And Lanier High School is a Negro high school, is it
not ?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, of the 1,092 arrests, how many did you make or
wi t n e s s , do you know?
A. How many did I make, — I don’t have that information,
I would say more than half of them though.
Q. Now, if you characterize that as demonstration cases
J . L . Ray, C r . 1593 .
that is your own analysis of it, these 1,092 arrests?
A. The 1,092 that were arrested were arrested for vio
lating the law, such as abusive language, disturbing the peace,
trespassing, just numerous different laws; distributing hand
bills without a permit, contributing to the delinquency of a
minor and most anything that you can mention. They were, «*—
most of them were very disorderly groups.
Q. But I was trying to get you to clear it up, which you
have for me. Now, on May the 29th, did you make any arrests of
people who were picketing?
A. I have never arrested anybody for picketing.
Q. Well, did you make any arrests of people who had
attempted to walk up and down in front of business establish
ments on Capitol Street?
A. On May the 29th, on the north side of Capitol Street,
about 12:30, I arrested six for obstructing the sidewalk.
Q. And they were on the sidewalk when you got there?
A. Yes, they were on the sidewalk.
Q. Did they have any time to walk before you got there?
A. Certainly, they were walking.
Q. And they had walked up and down in front of the store
or an establishment?
A. They were in front of the F. W. Woolworth Company.
Q. Had you observed them walking?
A. Yes, I had
J . L. Ray, 1594 .
Q. And they were walking a distance apart of three to
four feet?
A. Yes, they were three or four feet, and they had plac
ards about twenty-four inches in width.
Q. And they were walking and returning, weren’t they?
In other words, they weren’t just walking up the street, they
go a certain distance and then turn —
A. They would make a turn in front of people and block
the normal use of the sidewalk. That’s why they were arrested.
Q. They were walking on that portion of the sidewalk
near the curb?
A. No, this group did not. They made turns and it was
a very congested area at that time. This was during the trouble,
I believe, in Woolworth’s, — no, that was the day before. That
was the day before.
Q. And six of them were arrested for blocking, for —
A. Obstructing the sidewalk, correct.
THE COURT :
you
Captain, what would/say was the most congested busi
ness block in the City of Jackson?
THE WITNESS:
Your Honor, that is what we refer to as the long block,
that is the block beteeen Farish and Lamar Streets; in the block
where F. W. Woolworth Company is.
C r .
THE COURT:
J . L Ray, Cr. 1595 .
Is that just on the south side of the street, north
side of the street?
THE WITNESS:
There is more activity on the north side than there
is on the south side, but both sides of that particular block
are the most used portion.of Capitol Street.
THE COURT:
Is that the heaviest pedestrian traffic?
THE WITNESS:
Yes sir .
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Did you make any arrests for restraint of trade?
A. I arrested Medgar Evers and Roy Wilkins and Wilcher
for Section 1088; that does deal with —
Q. That’s restraining trade?
A. That’s right.
Q. And they were attempting to walk on Capitol Street at
that time, were they not?
A. They had signs interfering with; such as ’’Don’t buy
on Capitol Street,” interfering with trade, yes.
Q. And they were on the sidewalk not quite a minute
before they were arrested?
A. They walked from Farish and Capitol to below Shain-
berg’s; I would estimate at least, — I imagine that is 75 feet.
Q. How many stores does that cover, how many businesses
J . L. Ray, Cr> 1596 .
are there?
A. Well, there’s one, two, three, they were in front of
the fourth store.
Q. In front of the fourth store?
A. That’s correct. By the way, they had passed out pam
phlets concerning this, too, which came to my attention.
Q. Did you know that at the time you arrested them?
A. Did I know of those pamphlets?
Q. At the time you arrested them?
A. Yes, I knew that it was a program that was in effect,
yes, I did know that.
Q. Did you know that — you said they had passed out pam
phlets, you mean Medgar Evers and Roy Wilkins and this third
perso n?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
officers
Q.
June the
I can’t, — their organization the NAACP .
That is three individuals?
I have never seen any of those three individuals, no.
They were just walking when you arrested them?
That’s correct. Of course, as you know, they are
in that organization.
I am aware of that. Now, did you make any arrests on
3rd for parading without a permit?
A. I did.
Q. Did you arrest a group of six individuals on that
day?
J . L . Ray, Cr. 1597 .
A. That is correct.
Q. And charged them with parading without a permit?
A. That is correct.
Q. Did you make any arrests on June 4th of a group at the
City Hall?
A . I did .
Q. And what did you charge them with?
A. Breach of the peace.
Q. On the 29th, Captain Ray, did you arrest some persons
for displaying placards without a permit?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. How many were arrested on that day?
A. I don’t recall, but there were some arrested for dis
playing a placard without a permit. We have a new —
Q. You are using your notes there, do your notes reflect
that?
A. It shows a group arrested on June 29/th; a group
arrested at —
Q. May the 29th.
A. May the 29th, arrested at J. C. Penney’s, in front of
J. C. Penney’s, displaying placards without a permit.
Q. Does it say that there was a group of four arrested
on that occasion?
A. Four arrested, correct. Would you like for me to say
anything about that?
J • L . Ray, C r . 1598 .
Q. No, I’d just like for you to answer my questions,
Captain Ray. On June 5th did you make an arrest of nine per
sons and charge them for parading without a permit?
A. June 5th?
Q. Uh huh.
A. I did.
Q. And on June 7th, you arrested ten persons and charged
them with parading without a permit?
A. June the 7th?
Q. No, — yes, June the 7th.
A. Yes, I arrested five.
Q. Five, and charged them with parading without a permit?
A . Yes.
Q. Were the five together?
A . Yes.
Q. Do you remember what kind of handbills were being
passed out when somebody was arrested for passing out handbills?
I think you arrested somebody on the 18th of July.
A. I don’t know.
Q. You didn’t make the arrest on the 18th of July?
A. I don’t have any information on the 18th of July.
Q. Did you make any arrests for passing out handbills?
A. I did not. I recall some being arrested for that.
Q. I just want you to tell me what you have participated
in. Now, that 1,092 people that you arrested, did you include
J . L . Ray, C r . 1599 .
all those arrests that were made on the 15th of June in that
t otal?
A. I did.
Q. Did you include all those that were made at Lanier
High School?
A . Yes .
Q. So you included any number of arrests that were made
for parading without a permit and for protest demonstrations?
A. That is correct.
Q. And you donTt know of your own knowledge which --
A. You mentioned the arrests. None of them were charged
with that. They were charged with particular violations, such
as I have mentioned.
Q. When you testified, Captain Ray, you stated that you
made 1,092 arrests for demonstrating, is that right?
A. The Police Department.
Q. I am trying to determine how you determined that they
were demonstration cases since you stated that it included any
number of offenses during a certain period of time, so this is
what you decided were demonstration cases.
A. Most of them developed from churches and the NAACP
Headquarters and such as that. That’s the reason —
Q. I am aware of that, but there were others included —
_ That’s the reason; they determined them as demonstra
tions, even though it is a violation of the law. That’s the
J . L . Ray, C r . 1600 .
reason I mentioned that. It developed from these workshops
and so forth that had developed in these different places,
sponsored by NAACP, CORE, SNCC, and other organizations.
Q. There were some arrests that were made that did not
emanate from a church or from the Masonic Temple, they were
just people downtown, right?
A . Yes.
Q. Now, you don’t know how they got downtown on a number
of occasions?
A. I don’t know how they got downtown?
Q. Yes.
A. No, I don’t know how they all got downtown.
Q.. Therefore, these are what you decided were demonstra-
'V,tionficases, right? You have made this conclusion yourself?
A. I am familiar with Detective Black who attended all
these meetings and from the information that I got from his
reports, they were continuously saying what they were going to
do in these meetings, and it worked out like they would say.
Q. Some of these arrests were not related to things that
were mentioned during meetings so, therefore, you decided what
you meant by demonstration cases, right?
A. Well, let me say this, too. Most of these people
after their arrest were interviewed. They would tell of
attending workshops who were conducted by different ones.
Q. I don’t doubt that for one minute, Captain Ray
J . L . Ray, C r . 1601 .
my question is ~
A. I am trying to answer your question.
Q. But you are not.
A. Well, what was your question?
Q. My question was that when you testified that 1,092
arrests were made in demonstration cases, you have concluded
that these were demonstration casesj as based on your own
analysis of the matter?
A. My conclusion is that they developed from these
different organizations and workshops.
Q. And it was your conclusion?
A. After interviewing these people that were arrested,
yes.
Q. Do you have a breakdown of those 1,092 cases?
A. I do not.
Q. On any occasion other than the one we talked about,
which was May the 3lst, did the City of Jackson use garbage
trucks to transport people they had arrested?
A. I recall no other time that we used garbage trucks.
That was the largest group that was arrested, 322.
Q. Then you are not in a position to say that they were
not used on other occasions?
A. Any other arrests that I personally made, they were
not used.
Q. But you don’t know whether they were used for the
J . L. Ray, Cr 1602 .
arrest of other persons during the summer?
A. I know of no other time they were used.
MRS. MORRIS:
That’s all, Your Honor.
MR. NICHOLS:
We have no further questions of this witness, Your
Honor .
We will call Mr. Cliff Bingham.
MRS. MORRIS:
Y0ur Honor, we are going to object to this witness.
We were advised to exchange lists of witnesses before the case
started and I think about three days ago I was served with a
subsequent list which included any number of witnesses that
were not included in the first list. I don’t know any reason
for this. We were compelled to put ours on all together.
MR. NICHOLS:
Your Honor, in the original notice that we gave, we
stated that in the event the testimony is developed in chief by
the Plaintiff, if it developed that we needed to call additional
witnesses to rebut that testimony, we reserved the right to do
it. At the conclusion of the session we had previously, Mr.
Watkins advised the Court and counsel for the Plaintiffs that
it would be necessary for us to file an additional list of
witnesses, which we did.
MRS. MORRIS:
1603 .
If the Court please, I don’t think that changes the
nature of the requirement. The Plaintiffs were required to get
their entire list in early. There were certain number of days
allowed within which time Defendants were supposed to respond
to that list, within the framework of the witnesses on that list,
and what it was indicated that they would testify to, so it was
no surprise to Defendants after our list came out. But this new
group, this is a surprise to us.
THE COURT:
How many witnesses are on the new group?
MR. NICHOLS:
There are five, but I believe there will be only two
that we will use, Your Honor. I might say that we didn’t know,
I believe that is right, too, we did not know exactly what the
nature of this proof was going to be that they put on in chief,
and it was in the course of them putting this testimony on that
we realized that these witnesses would throw some light on this
case.
THE COURT:
Well, I believe that I’ll let him use that. I think
that this other witness, — I believe we had some discussion
about:'.that in the library and we just have to adjust these
rules as we go along. I will accord you the same privilege
though if this witness’ testimony affords you any surprise, I’ll
let you offer testimony by a witness whose name you have suggested
C. Bingham, Dir. 1604.
and that’s about the only way I can figure to make proper use
of it .
MR. CLIFF BINGHAM
called as a witness for the Defendants, and after having been
duly sworn, testified as follows:
MR . TRAVIS:
Q. Would you state your name, age and address please?
A. I am Cliff Bingham, 50 years old, and I live at 4746
McRaven Road, Jackson.
Q. By whom are you employed?
A. I am employed by the Lamar Broadcasting Company.
Q. And that is a, — - what is your —
A. That is WLBT and WJDX.
Q. Radio and TV?
A. Radio and TV.
Q. And what is your employment?
A. I am a reporter and photographer.
Q. And how long have you been a reporter and photographer?
A. For them, ten years.
Q. And what was your experience before that time?
A. I worked ten years for the Clarion Ledger as a photo
grapher .
Q. All right, sir. Than you have been a newspaperman,
and TV reporter and cameraman for —
A. Approximately twenty years.
C. Bingham, Dir 1605 .
Q. Did you have occasion to cover certain assignments
during the past summer here in the City of Jackson, and I
invite your attention particularly to May 28th to an incident
that happened over at Woolworth*s here in the City of Jackson
on Captiol Street?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. You did cover that story?
A. Yes.
Q. If you would, would you tell the Court what the occa
sion was, your being there, how you came to be there and what
you observed?
A. We received word that there was going to be some sort
of demonstration at Woolworth’s and I went down there and
shortly after I got there three people came in, sat at the lunch
counter and the lunch counter was then closed. They remained
seated there for, oh I guess, an hour or more, and —
Q. What was going on during this period of time?
A. Well, there was very little going on. There were a
lot of people coming in and out and at one point a man came in
and there were, I believe, two girls and a boy seated at the
counter. I*m not quite clear on that, but I think there were
two, there has been so many. The man grabbed the boy off the
stool and threw him on the floor. The manager went outside and
called the police in and they arrested this man.
Q. Did the police act promptly upon being called by the
C. Bingham, Dir. 1606.
manager?
A. As soon as the manager got out front and called them
in, they came right in.
Q. And what did the police do then?
A. They arrested the man who had taken the man off the
counter and they took both of them to Headquarters.
Q. Now, did you hear any conversation between the manager
and the police?
A . I did not .
Q. Did you observe anything else there on that occasion?
A. I did not.
Q. Directing your attention to Rose and Deer Park Street
on June 13th, I believe, did you have occasion to cover that
a ssi-gnment ?
A. I did.
Q. And that was the occasion, were you there?
A. I was there.
Q. Were you thbre in your line of work, covering the
story?
A . I was.
Q. Just how did you come to be there?
A. Well, the same way that we were at Woolworth's. We
had information that there was to be some sort of demonstration.
There was a meeting at this church on Pearl Street of a group
of people and we understood that from that meeting there would
C. Bingham, Dir. 1607 .
be a group to try to march downtown and I was out there to see
and observe and take pictures of what happened.
Q. If you would, would you tell the Court what you did
observe?
A. Well, a group of people, I do not know how many, there
must have been anywhere from twelve to twenty came out of there,
marched down Rose Street-- north, I guess —
Q. What part of Rose Street were you in?
A. From Pearl Street to Deer Park Street.
Q. You said they marched down the street?
A . Yes .
Q. Are there sidewalks on either side of Rose Street at
this area?
A. I think there is.
Q. And were they on the sidewalk?
A. Some were on the sidewalk and some were in the street.
Q. Were they blocking the street?
A. Well, those that were in the street were blocking the
street and cars were having difficulty getting through there.
Q. All right, sir, would you tell the Court .just what
happened then?
A. The police stopped them in front of Hart*s Bakery,
which is down there almost at the corner of Deer Park Street
and the police went down the line of people, took the flag each,
— I think, — Itm sure that each one of them had a flag, most
C. Bingham, Dir. 1608.
of them had a flag anyway. He took the flag out of their hands
and told them that they were under arrest. These people offered
no objections and said nothing, the only disturbance was caused
by others on the< out side „
Q. Now, did you see them arrested and moved out in
vehicles after they had been arrested?
A . Yes .
Q. Did you have them under observation all this period
of time?
A . Yes .
Q. Could you tell the Court whether or not, insofar as
those that were in the street are concerned, whether or not you
saw a policeman at any time strike or push any of the persons
that were in the street with a night stick?
A. He did not, they offered no resistance whatever and
he just took the flags and went right down the line taking the
flags out of their hands, and that was all there was to that.
Q. And, insofar as the flags were concerned, you did
see all of this, there was none of it that you missed seeing?
A. No, I was there.
Q. All right. Now, did you see any of the police at any
time tear any of these flags?
A . Oh no .
Q. You did not?
A. No .
C. Bingham, Dir. 1609.
Q. Now, did anything else happen out there on this occa
sion, Mr. Bingham?
A. A group of people on the front porch of the first
house, between Deer Park and Pearl Street, there was a large
group of people on this porch that started yelling and screaming
and shouting, making a general disturbance, and Chief Ray walked
up the sidewalk and stopped in front of the house and told these
people, oh three or four times, he didn’t just stop with one
time, he told them at least three times to my knowledge, that
they were going to have to cut out all the racket, that they
were causing a disturbance. They got worse, got louder and a
little more shouting with their language and using some language
that could be called abusive.
Q. Would you call it abusive?
A. I would.
Q. Did you recognize any of these persons who were on
the steps and making all this ruckus?
A. I recognized two.
Q. Who were these persons that you did recognize?
A. John Salter and Ed King.
Q. And who are they?
A. They were two professors at the time at Tougaloo
College .
Q. All right, sir. Now, if you would, tell the Court
just exactly what happened from that point on. You said that
C. Bingham, Dir. 1610 .
Captain Ray had asked them a number of times to be quiet and
that they —
A. They actually got louder and then, through the bull
horn, Chief Ray said, "You are all under arrest," and at that
point they broke and ran. The police went in to arrest them,
Salter resisted and tried to swing at a policeman and that’s
when the policeman hit him in the head with a night stick and
knocked him down on the ground.
Q. All right, sir. Now, just what did Salter do, what
did you see Salter do?
A. Well, the policeman ran up on the porch and tried to
get hold of him and when he did, Salter swung back at him. When
he did that, the policeman hit him.
Q. Had the police officer made any act other than to just
place his hands on him to arrest him?
A . That’ s all.
Q. And, it was at this point that Salter did what?
A. He swung at him, he swung his arm back as if to hit
him and when he did the policeman hit him.
Q. All right. What happened then after this?
A. Well, they took Salter to the paddy wagon and they
arrested some woman, I don’t know who she was. I understood
that she was Ed King’s wife, that is what I was told at the
scene .
Q. Did you see all of this, now?
C. Bingham, Dir. 1611.
A . I did .
Q. Now, you say that King was there too.
A. King was there. He disappeared, I don’t know where
he got off to.
Q. Was he at any time struck in any way?
A. No, because when the policemen went toward the porch
to arrest some of the people that they could get hold of, King
went back in the house or went around the house, I’m not sure
which. I think he went back in the house because he came out
on the porch after it was all over. I don’t think King was
arrested at that time.
Q. All right. Now, in regards to Salter, you say you saw
him struck one time?
A . That’s right.
Q. Was that it?
A. That’s it. I saw this one strike and it opened a place
on his head and made him bleed.
Q. All right, and how would you describe that, the place
on his head?
A. Well, it was a very superficial cut. I saw him later,
I didn’t know how bad he was hurt at the time, but later I saw
him and it was a very small cut.
Q. And you had all of this under observation all of the
time and that’s all that happened?
A. I was on the sidewalk and it was only about ten to
C, Bingham, Dir. 1612.
twelve feet to the porch of
Q. Did you see any po
June the 13th, either in the
force that was not necessary
A , I di d not .
Q. How did the police
under the circumstances?
A. It just so happens
are under and that is to *•-
this house.
lice officer on this occasion,
street or on these steps use any
or unreasonable?
on this occasion conduct themselves
that I know the orders the police
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I am going to object to this.
THE COURT :
On what grounds?
MRS. MORRIS:
He is testifying he knows the orders that the police
are under and I don’t think that is relevant here. He is
supposed to be testifying as to what he observed as his own
knowledge .
THE COURT:
I don’t believe it is resjioJisive, you can ask him the
question over again.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Mr. Bingham, did you see any police officer of the
City of Jackson use any more force than was necessary?
A. I did not.
C. Bingham, Dir. 1613.
MRS. MORRIS:
I object to the form of that because it is leading.
THE COURT:
Overruled, go ahead.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Now, in regards to June the 15th, did you have occa
sion to cover, — have an assignment on that day, involving some
more of these
A . I did .
Q. And where was that, Mr. Bingham?
A. On Farish Street.
Q. Do you recall what time of day this was?
A. I’d say it was around 3:00 o’clock, I am not sure of
the time.
Q. What happened on this occasion?
A. Do you want me to start at the beginning and tell you
what preceded —
Q. What I’m interested in is any disturbance on this
o cca sion.
A. Oh, well, that was after the funeral of Medgar Evers
and after the crowd had marched from out on Lynch Street all
the way down Farish Street to the funeral home, a large group
of people broke away and came back toward Capitol Street. I
had gone to the station and when I heard the, — got the word
that they were coming back towards Capitol Street, up the street,
C. Bingham, Dir. 1614 .
I circled around by the State Office Building and came up in
back of them. I parked in front of Ferguson Furniture Company,
got up on top of my car, and there were a hundred or so people
gathered all around me shouting and screaming. The police had
gathered near Capitol Street. Chief Ray came down the street
with the police in back of him waiting, they didn*t move in.
He came down with a bullhorn and asked them to please disperse,
to go on back to their homes, and not cause any more trouble, or
words to that effect. They ignored him and kept shouting and
the police gradually, slowly, moved down Farish Street and got
down to Amite Street. By that time the crowd had moved back
half way between Amite Street and Griffith Street. All this
time, I was in between, or among the group that was shouting
and calling out.
The police moved slowly in, all the way across the
street abreast of each other. A large group of police. At that
point, when they got between Griffith and Amite Street, the
crowd started throwing bottles and bricks and anything else it
seemed that they pould get their hands on. The police kept
moving rather slowly on in. The crowd moved back as the police
moved in and the police never got closer to the crowd than, I
would say, seventy-five feet, possibly a hundred feet, because
they were throwing bricks, and bottles and it was dangerous to
be out in the street.
Somewhere at this point, John Boar of the Justice
C. Bingham, Dir. 1615.
Department came down the street, walked towards the crowd
throwing the bottles; he had to dodge bottles and bricks too,
because I was observing him as he went along, and he finally
made it into the crowd and stopped the bottle throwing and the
bricks, and then shortly after that ~
Q. Let me ask you this. Did you recognize any of these
people that were in this crowd that was throwing these bricks?
A. No, I did not. While John Doar was talking to the
group, another group came down the street towards them from the
police lines. One of them that I knew was Jack Young, a local
attorney, and three or four other people that I did not know.
Q. Now, how would you describe the conduct of the police
of the City of Jackson under these circumstances?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to that. He can ask him what the
police were doing, but what somebody’s conduct was requires a
conclusion.
MR. TRAVIS:
Let me withdraw —
THE COURT:
Yes, I’ll let you rephrase it.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Did you see any police use any type of, was there
any type of contact between the police and this crowd?
MRS MORRIS:
C. Bingham, Dir. 1616.
That’s objectionable because it is leading.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
THE WITNESS:
I did not .
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. All right, sir. Were there any policemen injured on
this occasion, or do you know?
A. Yes, there were.
Q. How many of them were injured?
A. I don’t know, I saw two that were injured.
Q. And what type of injury did these policemen have that
you saw that were injured?
A. They were only slightly injured, but they were hit in
the head, one of them was hit in the head with a brick and the
other one was hit on the leg with a broken bottle.
MR. TRAVIS:
Thank you. Your witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Mr. Bingham, were you in Woolworth’s or outside of
Woolworth’s on the day you were talking about?
A . I was inside.
Q. You were inside at all times?
A. Yes
C. Bingham, Cr. 1617 .
Q. And there were three people at the counter?
A . That’ s right.
Q, Tĥ r stayed there about an hour?
A . That’s right.
Q. And during the time that they were there, there was a
large crowd gathered around there, was there not?
A . Yes .
Q« And was this inside Woolworth’s?
A. There were crowds coming and going all that time.
Q. There was a large crowd that stayed fairly stationary
in terms of number, whereas it might not have been the same
people .
A. Yes, there was a crowd of people, there wasn’t a large
crowd I’d say.
Q. And some of the group that were standing around were
throwing things on the counter, at the people who were
sitting at the counter?
A. No .
Q. Nobody in the crowd threw anything like catsup or
mustard at anybody who was seated?
A, No .
Q. You didn’t see that?
A. Not while I was there.
Q. How long were you there?
A. I was there about — I guess I was there an hour and
C. Bingham, C r . 1618.
a half or two hours.
Q. And do you know how long the people were there?
A . No, I don’t .
Q, And you were observing everything closely?
A . Yes .
Q. And you never saw anybody throw anything at these
people?
A . I did not .
THE COURT :
Are you making a distinction between what somebody
threw .and what somebody poured on somebody?
THE WITNESS:
No sir, I didn’t see any of that, Judge.
THE COURT:
You didn’t see any catsup poured on somebody?
THE WITNESS:
No sir, I can explain why if you would like me to.
THE COURT:
That’s all right.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. The only thing you saw was somebody pulled off the
stool?
A. That’s right. Nothing was thrown at anybody while I
was in there.
Q. Were you able to observe during the time you were in
C. Bingham, Cr. 1619.
there?
A . Yes.
Q. You just stood there and watched them?
A. Yes, I was right there.
Q. These people who were sitting at the counter, were
they Negroes?
A . Yes .
Q. Now, during the hour and a half, did you say it was?
A. Approximately, I donTt know, it was a good long time,
standing around doing nothing, it was a good long time.
Q. During this time did any other people come to that
count er?
A . No .
Q. Just these three?
A. No one else sat down.
Q. Now, on June 13th when you were at or near the Pearl
Street Church, where were you standing at this time?
A. Well, I was all over the area. I had to move around
quite a bit. I was on Pearl Street for awhile and then I was
on Rose Street for awhile.
Q. Now, when the group left the church, where were you?
A. I was on Rose Street.
Q. You were there when they left?
A. Yes .
Q. And when they got to Rose Street you were already there?
C . Bingham, C r . 1620 .
A . Yes.
Q. And where were you standing?
A„ Somewhere between Rose and Deer Park Street.
Q. Were you standing on the sidewalk, on the curb —
A. Yes, I was standing on the sidewalk.
Q. On the sidewalk. Now, how far from this porch that
you described were you standing?
A. Well, that was almost a block away.
Q. So you were not near it originally?
A. Not originally. The people weren’t near it originally
either, they were at the church and when they left the _ you
asked when they left the church. I was at _
Q. ITm talking about the people who were in this protest
procession.
A. Well they were in, — - the group that was on the porch
was a different group than the ones that were under arrest.
Q. I am aware of that, but I asked you when the people
went to the Pearl Street Church where you were, the people in
the protest processionVwith flags?
A. I was on Rose Street.
what —
Q. On Rose Street, on the corner of the intersection near
A, No, between Pearl and Deer Park.
Q. And you watched the group coming down toward you?
A . Yes .
C. Bingham, Cr 1 621 .
Q. How much time did you spend out on the street on the
13th of June?
A. I had been there all the morning. I don’t know what
exact time this took place, it was right around noon though I
think.
Q. Well, these incidents that you described, how long
did they take?
A. The incidents that I have described here? How long
did they take?
Q. Yes .
A. I guess altogether about twenty or thirty minutes as
far as I can remember.
Q. Now, during this time you were moving around in the
Rose Street area?
A. Well, after the, —— when the arrests were made, I did
not move around too much, I stayed in one area.
Q. How many people were arrested, do you know?
A. No, I don’t..
Q. Were there a large group?
A. Fairly large group.
Q. And you saw each one of them arrested?
A. Well, he told them they were all under arrest and I
don’t know whether he arrested each one individually or not, I
do not know that.
Q. But you saw the policemen go down the line and talk
C. Bingham, C r . 1622 .
to each individual —
A . I did.
Q. Now, were these people taken away from the scene?
A. Yes, finally. It was a little while before they were
taken away.
Q. Now, the people who were on the porch, were they also
arrested and taken away?
A. I only saw possibly two or three people arrested from
the porch.
Q. Were they taken away with the people who had been in
the procession?
A. Yes. Well, I think they had already been taken away,
but, by that time, they had been loaded into a van and taken
away .
going
were
group
Q. So that during the time tiiis p-orch incident was
on, the people who had been in the procession with flags
still in the area?
A. Well, I’m not quite sure of that.
Q. Were there other people in the area, other than the
on the porch and the group who were in the procession?
A. Yes, there were people —
Q. Who were standing around?
A. There were a number — -
Q, A number of people standing around?
A, A number of people standing around.
C . Bingham, C r . 1623 .
Q. A lot of people in the area?
A. That’s right.
Q. A lot of people milling back and forth on porches and
on lawns?
A. I only saw people on two different porches, milling
about and out in the yard.
Q. So you only saw people on two porches in that whole
area?
A. No, I don’t say in the whole area — where I was, in
the area where I was.
Q. Well, in other areas on Rose Street adjacent
A. Well, there were a lot of people in the street and so
I don’t know.
Q. On Rose Street adjacent to the people who had been in
this protest procession, there were people who were observers
on the lawns and on the sidewalk, lots of people in the area who
were not involved in walking, just observers?
A. As I said, I only saw people on two different porches
and in two yards.
Q. Well, then there might have been people there that you
didn’t see?
A. That’s true.
Q. There was a lot of confusion during that time, wasn’t
there, Mr. Bingham?
̂ wasn’t a great deal of confusion except that
C. Bingham, C r . 1624 .
caused by these people on the porch.
Q. Is that your opinion?
A. That is a fact.
Q. That’s how you would describe a fact?
A. I was there and I know what is a fact and what isn’t
a fact. The only disturbance caused was by the people, -- the
people that were under arrest were causing no disturbance.
Q. The only confusion you saw was caused this way.
A. How is that again, now?
Q. The confusion that you saw was caused by this group
of people on the porch?
A . That is right.
Q. You didn’t see anybody else in the area causing any?
A. I did not.
Q.. But there could have been other people in the area,
you have admitted that?
A. There could have been other people in the area, yes.
Q. And there could have been confusion in other parts of
Rose Street?
A. There could have been a lot of confusion on Lynch
Street, but I wasn’t around there.
Q. But on Rose Street where you were, there could have
been confusion in other areas where you could not see it?
A. I don’t know, I wasn’t there. I can only tell you
about the confusion I saw.
C. Bingham, Cr. 1625 .
Q. Precisely. Then we agree that there could have been
other things going on, you are not in a position to say that
was the only confusion going on on Rose Street, are you?
A. No. Rose Street is about a couple of miles long.
Q. You are not in a position to say that was the only
confusion on Rose Street in the area of the demonstrations?
A. No, I am not.
How did you come to know who John Salter and Reverend
King were?
A. I had known them from other occasions.
Q. From what other occasions?
A. Well, I dontt know. They had been in other demonstra
tions around Jackson and I got to know who they were.
Q. During the summer, or did you know who they were
before that summer?
A. I’m not sure whether I knew them before that summer
or not. I think I knew Ed King, but I didn’t know John Salter.
Q. And you knew them through demonstrations of civil
rights activity?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you a native of Jackson, Mr. Bingham?
A . I am not .
Q. How long have you been in Jackson?
A. Since 1932.■
Q. And you still live in Jackson?
C . Bingham, C r . 1626 .
A. I still do.
Q. Now, on the 15th, you said you got word that a large
group of people had broken away from the area of the funeral
home and they were heading toward Capitol Street.
A . That’ s right.
Q. And you went around behind them to find out what was
happening?
A . That’s right.
Q. So you don’t know, of your own knowledge, how this
whole business started?
A. No .
Q. You got into it after it started?
A . That’s right.
Q. And during this period the policemen were walking
from Capitol Street down Farish Street moving the crowd back?
A. That’s right.
Q. Were you in the crowd that was being pushed back?
A. Yes.
Q. And how large was that crowd?
A. I was on top of my car and, of course, I wasn’t being
moved because my car was stationary and I stayed with it.
Q. Where was your car?
A. In front of the Ferguson Furniture Company right at
the corner of Amite Street and Farisn Street.
Q. How far is that from Capitol?
C. Bingham, Cr. 1627 .
A. A block •
Q. And how far was
»
the crowd pushed back beyond your car?
A. To Griffith Stre et.
Q. So that in the beginning you were looking a block
toward Capitol ,Street?
A. That’ s right . *
Q. And then you were looking a block or two in the ot:her
dir e ction?
A. That’ s right .
Q. So that during this time the crowd and the police were
somewhat removed from where you were since you were stationary,
you were not moving with the group?
A. Well, the police stopped where I was. They didn’t get
much further than that.
Q. It was coming toward you then?
A. That’s right and when they got to just past the inter
section of Amite and Farish Street they stopped. That’s where
all the police stopped. The crowd was then almost to Griffith
Street and that is about as close as they ever got to one
another .
Q. Now, during this period there was confusion in this
area, I take it, with people being moved by the policemen?
A. I wouldn’t say there was any confusion as far as the
jpolice were concerned. Theycweren’t making a sound and they
lowly. They never did --were moving very s
C . Bingham, C r . 1628 .
Q. And the crowd was also quiet?
A. No, the crowd was not quiet.
Q. Were they moving slowly?
A. In some instances they were and in some they weren’t.
Q. They were moving in an orderly fashion down the street?
A. Not orderly.
Q. Then there was confusion?
A. Well, if you want to call moving about all over the
street orderly, not, — that’s what they were doing.
Q. No, I will accept your definition, they were moving
about all over the street.
A. Well, there was confusion. If you want to say that
the way they were moving about, there was considerable con
fusion. They were yelling and screaming and then they got to
throwing bottles and bricks and I would call that confusion.
Q. I think I would too. How long did you watch this
thing that you describe?
A. The whole time that it took place. I don’t know how
long that was, I do not know.
Q. Did you see any arrests made?
A. No, I didn’t .
MRS. MORRIS:
I have no further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
MR..TRAVIS:
C. Bingham, Redir. 1629.
Q. Mr. Bingham, where were you when this catsup, on the
2 8th of May, where were you when this catsup and mustard epi
sode happened?
A. I was at home.
Q. That was before you got there, or after you left?
A. That was after I left.
Q. Now, on the 13th on this porch, did you see King
thrust or struck in any way by any member of the Police Depart
ment, or anybody else?
A. I certainly did not.
Q. Was he?
A. No .
Q. Now, where are you from originally?
A. Newton.
Q. Mississippi?
A . That1s right.
MR. TRAVIS:
That1 s all. We would like to call Mr. W. C. Shoemaker.
MRS. MORRIS:
If the Court please before you — Mr. Travis, I
have the same objection with reference to this witness that we
made for the last one.
THE COURT:
I will make the same ruling and grant you the right
which I indicated to call any additional witness to respond to
W. C. Shoemaker, Dr. 1630.
this testimony.
MR. W. C. SHOEMAKER
called as a witness for the Defendants, and after having been
duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Would you state your name, pleas e sir, age and
your addr ess?
A. W. C. Sho emaker, I»m 3 2, and I 1ive at 232 Mane:hest e
in Ja ckson .
Q. By whom are you employed?
A. The Jackson Daily News.
Q. How 1ong have you been employed by the J ackson Daily
News?
A. For fourteen and one-half years, except for two year
military leave during the Korean War.
Q. What is your employment with the Jacks on Daily News?
A. I am a reporter.
Q. What type of reporting do you do generally?
A. Well, almo st anything that comes along •
Q. Have you been a reporter during these fourteen and a
half year s?
A. During most of this time, yes.
Q. Here in the City of Jackson?
A . Yes .
W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1631.
Q. IT11 ask you, Mr. Shoemaker, if you had occasion to
cover an assignment on May the 28th near Woolworth’s store here
in the City of Jackson?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And where is that store located?
A. I believe it’s in the 100 block of East Capitol Street
downtown.
Q* All right. What caused you to be in this area or at
this store on this occasion, on May the 28th?
A. I was sent there in anticipation of some sort of
racial demonstration.
Q. All right, sir. Had somebody given you some informa
tion on it?
A. Somebody had telephoned.
Q. Now, What did you observe when you arrived, — what
time of day was this when you got there?
A. About 10:00 o*clock in the morning.
Q. What did you observe, what happened while you were
there?
A. Well, for awhile, nothing. Several other reporters
gathered around and we stood around and gossiped with each other
and about 11:00 o'clock, about 11, several colored people came
in and took seats at the lunch counter.
Q. Now, what happened after that?
A The store closed! the lunch counter and the crowd
W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1632.
started coming around inside and a lot of, — quite a bit of
hollering; the people sitting at the counter, they just sat
there, they weren’t served any food. They stayed there and
just chatted back and forth with each other. People gathered
around and dumped some mustard and catsup and some sugar on
their heads and stuff like that.
Q. All right, sir. Did you have occasion to talk to the
manager of the store on this occasion?
A. I spoke with him once, yes.
Q. And what was the nature of your conversation with him?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I am going to object to conversation with
the manager. This is hearsay.
THE COURT :
IT11 sustain the objection.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Did the manager take any action to get the police in
the building during this period of time?
A. None that I saw.
jj. Did you make any effort to determine whether or not
he was going to ask the police in to handle this crowd?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you determine and how?
A. Well, I did not determine, — the police did not
enter, but I don’t know w£y, from him, I don’t know why.
W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1633 .
Q. Now, what did you do then?
A. I stayed in the store until probably about 12:00
o’clock or a few minutes after and then I left and came back
toward the office.
Q. All right. Did you see any police outside that you
recognized?
A. Yes, I saw several out in automobiles and also on the
sidewalk; Chief Ray and quite a few others.
Q. Who is Chief Ray?
A. Chief J . L. Ray, I believe he is with the Police
Department.
Q. What action was he taking, if any, at that time?
A. None .
Q. Do you know why?
A. I know why he said.
Q. What was that?
MRS. MORRIS:
THE COURT:
Your Honor, I object to what Chief Ray said.
•
■
I’ll sustain the objection.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Now, directing your attention to May 3lst, 1963, the
time when some 322 persons were arrested on Farish Street here
in the City of Jackson, did you observe that?
A . Yes, I did .
W. C.Shoemaker, Dir. 1634.
Q. What time of day was this, do you recall?
A. It was a little bit after 4 in the afternoon.
Q. How did you come to have this assignment, how did you
get that?
A. Most of the news folks in Jackson were there or were
aware of it from one source or another that there was going to
be a demonstration on Farish Street and I was among those who
were aware and went.
Q. All right, sir. Did you see any official or officer
of the NAACP in this group at that time?
A . Yes, I did .
Q. Who was that?
A. Well, when the demonstration began the man who was in
front of it was Willie Ludden, who has identified himself actu
ally as youth worker with the NAACP.
Q. Now, did you see him on that occasion?
A . Yes, I did .
Q. What was he doing in regard to this parade or whatever
it was they were having?
A. He was the first man in the line. He was the leader
of the parade, really.
Q. What happened?
A. Well, do you mean what happened in the demonstration?
Q. Yes, just where it began and what happened up to the
time the arrests were made?
W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1635
A. Well, it was a little bit after four and a crowd of
mostly young people, student age people with Willie Ludden in
front, came out of the church, the Farish Street Baptist Church,
started down the sidewalk two or three abreast, toward Capitol
Street about four blocks away. Some had banners, some had flags
some had nothing. There was about twenty-five or thirty of them
lined up and then behind them they weren’t really in rows any
more, there were just great numbers.
Q. Where were these people in regard to streets and side
walks?
A. The first ones who were lined up were on the western
sidewalk.
Q. That’s the one that Willie Ludden was leading?
A . That’s right .
Q. And what about the other group, where were they?
A. They were on the sidewalk and in the street, behind
that first group.
Q. Were they moving all in the same direction?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. And which direction were they moving in?
A. South .
Q. That would be toward Capitol Street?
A. Toward Capitol Street.
Q. What did you observe then?
A. Well, there was about, — at the first block below
W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1636.
the church, south of the church, there was a delegation of
policemen lined up across the street there. Just before they
came,-the crowd that Ludden was leading got to those policemen,
Chief Ray went up toward the group and talked to them, I don’t
know what was said, and they kept walking.
Q. Did they stop walking while he was talking to them?
A. No, they didn’t.
Q. What happened then?
A. Well, they kept walking and when they reached the
line of policemen, Ludden turned his shoialder sidewise and just
pushed into the crowd, — into the policemen. Then, there was
a lot of singing and chanting after that.
Q. Now, what happened in regard to this Ludden? Would
you describe in detail exactly how he put his shoulder down and
went into the police line.
A. Well, he was on the sidewalk and the police were
actually from one building on one side of the street to the
buildings on the other side of the street.
Q. Shoulder to shoulder?
A. Shoulder to shoulder, had the street completely blocked.
He turned his shoulder in to them kind of like, I guess maybe
like a football player, and just pushed his way in there and
when he did two or three police grabbed, him and whacked him
across the legs with bight sticks.
Q. How many times was he whacked on the legs?
W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1637.
A. I think I saw him hit twice.
Q. Did you s ee h:im struek any place other than the legs?
A. No, I d:idn»t.
Q. Wa s there any more f 0rce used by the police on this
o cca sion than wa s aibsolut ely necessary under the circumstances?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to the form of that question.
THE COURT:
I’ll let y-ou rephrase it.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. You saw what happened there on this occasion with the
police and this Ludden, do you have an opinion as to whether or
not the police used any more force than was necessary to stop
Ludden on this occasion?
MRS, MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to that on the grounds that it
is not only leading, but it calls for an opinion.
THE COURT :
Sustained.
MR. TRAVIS:
Now, did you see Ludden on any other occasion on that
day?
A. I saw him that night.
Q. And this was about what time in the afternoon that this
happ ened?
W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1638
A. Probably 4:30 by the time this happened.
Q. And where did you see him that night?
A. I saw him at the Masonic Temple on Lynch Street.
Q. What was going on there?
A. There was a mass rally in protest of these arrests.
Q. And who was sponsoring this mass rally?
A. I think, — I’m not sure if they specifically were
sponsoring it, it was the Jackson Movement, they call them
selves. It was an organization of the NAACP and several other
group s .
Q. Now, you told the Court that you saw Ludden that night
Under what circumstances did you see him?
A. He addressed the rally.
Q. What was the nature of his remarks?
A. He told of being arrested and of being whipped by the
police.
Q. Did he evidence any signs that night, were there any
visible marks on him that you could see?
A. None. None that I saw.
Q. None that you saw? What are the newspapers, -- the
general circulation here in the City of Jackson, Mr . Shoemaker?
A. The dailies are the Jackson Daily News and the Clarion
Ledger published here. Weeklies are the Jackson Times, the
Jackson Advocate, the Mississippi Free Press and the Northside
I believe those are all published within the city.R eport er .
W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1639.
Q. All right. What is the Jackson Advocate?
A. It is published weekly with news about Negroes.
Q. Is it published by Negroes?
A . Yes it is .
Q. And you say this paper has a general circulation here
in the City of Jackson?
A. Yes, it has been published here for quite a number of
years .
Q. Does it express the Negro viewpoint?
A. It has been recognized as such in the past, yes.
Q. I hand you two copies of the Jackson Advocate, one
dated Saturday, June 22nd, 1963, and the other Saturday, June
29th, 1963, and ask you if these two are representative of the
Jackson Advocate?
MR. BELL :
Your Honor, these papers haven’t been identified as
exhibits or anything else and we would generally object to them
on the basis that, assuming they are being put on for tfe rea
sons that they appear to be, similar testimony by the Plain
tiffs was held not admissable.
THE COURT:
What was your question?
MR. TRAVIS:
I asked him if, — would you read the question back
please?
W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1640.
THE REPORTER:
I hand you two copies of the Jackson Advocate, one
dated Saturday, June 22nd, 1963, and the other Saturday, June
29th, 1963, and ask you if these two are representative of the
Jackson Advocate?
THE COURT :
I sustain the objection.
MR, TRAVIS:
Q. Now, can you identify those as being copies of the
Jackson Advocate?
A . Yes, I can.
Q. They both are copies of the Jackson Advocate?
A . Yes, they are.
MR, TRAVIS:
\ ic wculd like to offer those as an exhibit to Mr.
Shoemakerts testimony at this point.
MR, BELL:
Same objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
Do you want to state your objection specifically?
MR. BELL:
We can’t see what the relevance is of offering
these as exhibits and it appears that the Court held similar
offers by the Plaintiffs as irrelevant to the issues in
the case.
V. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1641.
THE COURT:
And you are now convinced of that, are you?
MR. BELL:
I m not convinced of it, no, but I’m convinced that
I could object to allowing them to put in testimony that we were
not allowed to put in.
THE COURT:
Yes, I’ll sustain the objection. I’ll let those two
newspapers be marked exhibit, — what is the number?
MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, will you hear me before you rule on that?
THE COURT:
Yes .
MR. WATKINS:
Those papers are not being offered to prove the truth
of anything said in either one of them. They are being offered
because these people have made a great show, attempt to show in
this case that there are no outlets for the expression of their
opinion in the City of Jackson and, therefore, that they have
to get on the street and demonstrate and do what we think are
unlawful acts in order to convey their opinion to other people.
Now we want to show, and we think we are entitled to show, that
there is a regular, the largest Negro weekly in the State of
Mississippi is published here in the City of Jackson, and these
two copies of it are merely being offered in evidence to show
W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1642.
that they do have an outlet for their opinion and don’t
get on the streets.
have to
THE COURT:
Yes. Well, I’ll sustain the objection to the papers
themselves. That*s exactly the argument that your opponent made
to offer the white newspapers in evidence. I donTt think they
are evidence. You’ve got this witness on the stand and if what
you say is true, ask him about it. They may be marked for
identification.
' 4k
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as No. D~53.)
MR. TRAVIS:
Your witness.
THE COURT:
My ruling is that you can ask him about what you have
stated, Mr. Watkins, is a fact if you want to.
MR. WATKINS:
We think we have already shown by him that this is a
paper published in the City of Jackson by Negroes and that it
reflects Negro opinion, but my thought was at least without
attempting to put in one word of truth of anything that is in
either paper, just to show the type of paper it is. That was
the only purpose we offered it for.
THE COURT:
All right .
CROSS EXAMINATION
W. C. Shoemaker, Cr . 1643.
MR. BELL:
Q. Mr. Shoemaker, are you a resident of the City of
J ackson?
A . Yes, I am.
Q. How long have you been a resident of Jackson?
A. Fourteen and a half years.
Q. And your race is what?
A . Whit e .
Q. And the name of the newspaper you work for is what?
A. The Jackson Daily News.
Q. Now you indicate that on May 31st when the group left
the Farish Street Church and began going down the sidewalk that
there was a certain group of this , — a certain part of this
group that was walking in two’s and three’s on the sidewalk, is
that right?
A. That’s right, the first part was.
Q. About how many people were in the first part?
A. As best I remember, about twenty or twenty-five, maybe.
Q. Now, where were you at this time when they came out
of the church?
A. Standing across the street, on the opposite side of
Farish Street from them.
q . And when they began coming out of the church and
heading toward Capitol Street, did you move your position at
all then, at that time?
W. C. Shoemaker, Cr. 1644.
A. Yes, I came down the street on the opposite side of
the street from them.
Q. Sort of following along with this group?
A. Possibly even with them, or maybe a little ahead of
them.
Q. Bid you observe when the police formed their line
clear across the street with the men shoulder to shoulder that
you described?
A. The line was there at about the same time that the
demonstrators came out of the church.
Q. The line was already, —— sc the police were formed
across the way when Ludden led his group out of the church, is
that correct?
A. To the best I recall, yes. I know the line was there
before they reached the line, — before they reached the point
where the police lined up. They were already there, the police
were already lined up.
Q. Now, it is correct that Farish Street, that this
demonstration was being held on, is a one-way street as far as
vehicular traffic is concerned, is that correct?
A. ThatTs right, yes.
Q. And the one-way direction is away from Capitol Street?
A . That1s right.
Q. So that at the point that the police formed a line
there it was not going to be possible for any further vehicles
W. C. Shoemaker, C r . 1645.
to get down the street toward a point where the demonstrators
were coming, is that correct?
A. I believe that’s right, the police did not let
traffic through there.
Q. Now, you indicated that the first twenty, or twenty-
five or thirty were marching two or three abreast, that as the
rest of the group followed from the church they were not as
well lined up, is that right?
A . That’s right .
Q. Bid you notice subsequently that a large number of
these people were arrested?
A . Yes .
Q. Did you notice whether any of the persons who were in
two’s and three’s were arrested?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. You indicated that from your vantage point it seemed
that Willie Ludden pushed into the line of policemen.
A . That’s right „
Q. Did you hear Willie Ludden say anything to the police
men before moving into their ranks?
A. No, I didn’t, I was on the opposite corner. There was
a street between us and I did not hear, —-
Q. You would not have been able to hear them say anything
to him either, is that right?
A. No, I wouldn’t.
W. C. Shoemaker, C r . 1646.
Q. And, you indicate that after Ludden pushed into the
group that the policemen surrounded him.
A. Yes, he turned his shoulder into them and pushed into
the policemen and was grabbed and carried away after that.
Q. Well now, at what point was he struck by the police
men with these night sticks?
A. When he pushed into them, when he kind of, it was
very much like an athlete really, I mean he turned his shoulder
and kind of, was getting an extra yard into the line really.
Q. Now, did you see him struck twice with the night
stick?
A . Yes, I did .
Q. You indicated that as far as you were able to see
that he had not been struck more than twice, is that right?
A. I saw him struck not more than twice, across the legs
below the knees.
Q. But at this point the police had closed in on Ludden?
A. No, this happened just when he went into the line of
poli c emen .
Q. Can you say as a matter of fact whether or not other
policemen may have struck him at other places besides on his
legs?
A. I didn’t see any others.
Q. But you can’t say as a matter of fact that he wasn’t
struck at any other place, by others than those that you saw?
W. C. Shoemaker, C r . 1647 .
A. Not for sure, no. I saw them take him out of the
crowd of policemen, out of the lines of policemen to a paddy
wagon, but as he passed through there I didn’t see him.
Q. When you saw Ludden later that evening, did you see a
bandage on his head?
A. I believe he had a band-aid over one eye.
Q. A band-aid?
A. A band-aid.
Q. Was it a good sized band-aid?
A. The best I recall, it was just an ordinary tan-colored
band-aid .
Q. So probably you couldn’t notice any marks because at
least there was a band-aid that might, or might not, have been
covering up some of the marks?
A. There was one band-aid, yes.
Q. Now, you indicated that the Baily News and Clarion
Ledger are daily newspapers in Jackson.
A . That’s right.
Q. What is the circulation of those newspapers?
A. I don’t know exactly.
Q. Approximately?
A. Probably 55 to 60 thousand each.
Q. Now, do you happen to know what the approximate
circulation of the Jackson Advocate is?
A. I have no idea.
V. C. Shoemaker, C r . 1648.
Q. Do you have any idea who the editor of that newspaper
is?
A . Y e s .
Q. Who is it?
A. Percy Green.
Q. You indicated that in your opinion the Jackson Advo
cate expresses the Negro viewpoint. What is the basis for that
stat ement?
A. Well, he has for a great many years
Q. He has for a great many years what?
A. Expressed a Negro viewpoint, the viewpoint that he pro
claimed to be the Negro viewpoint.
Q. Are you taking his word for it then?
A. I have no other person’s word to take, but his.
Q. So your whole basis for saying that the Jackson Advocate
is the Negro viewpoint is based on what you have understood
Percy Green, the editor of that newspaper, to say is the Negro
viewpoint, is that right?
A. Well, he deals with the problems specific to that group
of people, advertisements aimed directly at them, —
Q. Would you please just answer the question?
A. Well, I am trying to do that.
Q. .Well, -answer my first question and then if you want
explain it — my question is whether or not the basis for your
statement that the Jackson Advocate expresses the Negro viewpoint
W. C. Shoemaker, Cr „ 1649.
is based on what you have heard Percy Green, as editor, say
its viewpoint is?
A. Not altogether.
Q. Was that part of it?
A. Part of it, yes.
Q. All right, now, what is the rest of the basis?
A. Well, like I started to tell you, he deals in the
problems of that race, his advertisements, his news columns are
aimed specifically at members of that race; he has in the past
spoken at meetings at which problems concerning the Negro race
were the primary subject.
Q. Have you ever noted the viewpoint that Percy
Green takes in these speeches or in his paper as to the problems
of the Negro in civil rights?
A. Yes, both in recent years and as much as ten or fif
teen years ago .
Q. I would like for you to refer to recent years, what
his viewpoint has been?.if you know?
A. I have read some of his editorials, yes.
Q. In your opinion, what is the viewpoint on civil rights
and the Negro question?
MR. WATKINS:
If it please the Court, at this point I am going to
object now. Percy Greents viewpoint as an editor is best
expressed and the best evidence of it is in those two exhibits
W. C. Shoemaker, C r . 1650.
that we offered and had marked and identified right there on —
MR. BELL:
We have already excluded that, but we haven’t been able
to exclude the statement, Your Honor, that the Jackson
Advocate expresses the Negro viewpoint, and that’s what I am
trying to get at now.
THE COURT :
I’ll let him answer.
THE WITNESS:
Would you ask me again, I’m sorry --
MR. BELL:
Q. Well, let me ask you this —
THE COURT:
Again, I’m afraid we are getting right into that area
where you tried to get, as Plaintiff, -- you try to wedge your
way back into that same area where the Court has denied you
access .
MR. BELL:
Your Honor, I just want to clear up this item of —
THE COURT:
All right, I’ll let you clear it, go ahead.
MR. BELL:
Q. As a matter of fact, Mr. Shoemaker, did you know that
Mr. Green is not well thou ght of in the Negro c ommunit y a nd i s
thought to receive money to publish his paper from the White
W. C. Shoemaker, Cr. 1651.
Citizens Council and other segregation groups?
A. I have heard that within the last couple of years,
however, at other times I have heard that he is well thought of
by some groups.
Q. Well, have you heard in the last few years that he is not well
/thought of and, as a matter of fact, it is thought in the Negro
community that he receives money to publish his paper from the
White Citizens Council and other segregation groups?
MR. WATKINS:
If it please the Court, we object to this as hearsay.
THE COURT :
I’ll sustain the objection.
MR. BELL:
Q. Do you know what, if any, circulation of the Jackson
Advocate goes into the white community?
A . No, I don’t .
Q. Would you say it is small, or large?
A. I don’t have any idea.
Q. Then you wouldn’t know if any of the Jackson Advocate
circulation is in the white community?
A. I only know of one. That’s the one we get at our
office. Other than that, I don’t know.
MR. BELL:
No further questions.
MR. TRAVIS:
( B . Armstrong, Dir) 1652.
That’s all. Thank you, Mr. Shoemaker.
We call Chief Beavers Armstrong.
MR. BEAVERS ARMSTRONG
called as a witness for the Defendants, after being duly sworn,
testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
MR. TRAVIS:
Qo Would you state your name, age, and address, please?
A. Beavers Armstrong, 50 years old, 1109 Palmyra Street,
Jackson, Mississippi.
Q. By whom are you employed?
A. City of Jackson Police Department.
Q. How long have you been employed by the Police Depart-
mentvof the City of Jackson?
A. Twenty-one years and ten months.
Q. Are you a law enforcement officer?
A. I am, sir.
Q. Have you been a law enforcement officer during this
period of time?
A . I have, sir.
Q. Has your twenty-one years of service been continuous?
A. With the exception of the time that I was in service.
Q. How long was that, Chief?
A. About eleven months.
Q. Do you hold any position in the Police Department of
B. Armstrong, Dir. 1653.
the City- of Jackson?
A. I am a Deputy Chief of Police.
Q. Deputy Chief of Police?
A. That’s right, sir.
Q. Would you tell the Court what your duties are generally
as the Deputy Chief of Police?
A. I am in charge of traffic and the co-ordinator of all
special- events.
Q. What do you mean, special events?
A. Parades, football games, basketball games, activities
at the fair ground and so on and so forth.
Q. All right, sir. Now, did you hold this rank of Deputy
Chief during the summer of 1963 and particularly during the
months of May and June, 1963?
A. I did, sir.
Q. Chief Armstrong, directing your attention to June the
12th, were you on duty that day?
A. I was, sir.
Q. And did you have occasion to be in the vicinity of
Lynch and Poindexter Streets?
A. I was, sir.
Q. Were you there in your capacity as Deputy Chief of
Police of the City of Jackson?
A . I was.
Q. Were there other officers with you or were you alone?
B. Armstrong, Dir. 1654.
A. I had a detail of men with me out there.
Q. Would you tell His Honor how you came to be in this
Lynch and Poindexter area? First, let me ask you this. These
streets, this intersection and both of these streets, do they
lie in the City of Jackson, within the city limits of the City
of Jackson?
A. They are.
Q. All right, sir. Where generally is Lynch and Poindex
ter, in what part of town?
A. Southwest Jackson. Lynch Street runs east and west
and Poindexter runs north and south.
Q. Would you describe the streets?
A. Lynch Street is approximately forty-five feet wide at
Lynch and Poindexter. It has a sidewalk on each side in that
area. The sidewalk is approximately ten feet wide. Poindexter
Street is approximately twenty-seven feet wide. On the south
side of Lynch Street, on the west side, it has a sidewalk about
six or possibly seven feet wide. Poindexter jaggers, when it
comes out into Lynch Street it moves to the east about fifty feet
and runs north approximately the same width of the street with a
sidewalk on the east side.
q . Now, as far as Lynch Street, Lynch Street is one of
the more heavily traveled thoroughfares in the City of Jackson,
is it not?
A. It is, sir.
B. Armstrong, Dir. 1655.
Q. Now, are there sidewalks on both sides of Lynch Street?
A. At Poindexter, it is sir.
Q. And would you describe Lynch Street as a wide street?
You have already told us how wide is was, but in comparison with
the streets generally, is it a wide street?
A. Well, certain areas J)f -Lynch Street, we restrict park
ing in the mornings and in the afternoons so as to be able to
move the amount of traffic that has to move through there.
Qo. All right sir, insofar as this particular area is con
cerned?
A. It is in that area.
Q. What was the occasion, and why, and how did you come
to be in this area of town?
A. I received a call over the radio at approximately 1:00
o’clock in the afternoon on June the 12th that a group of people
had moved out of the Masonic Temple and moved out into the street
and was marching east on Lynch Street towards the city. I imme
diately went to that area and called a detail of men to meet me
there .
Q. All right, sir, and where did you go?
A. I went to Lynch and Poindexter and stopped.
Q. How many men did you have under your command there on
the scene at the time, — were there any arrests made on this
occa sion?
A. There was.
B. Armstrong, Dir. 1656.
Q. At the time of the arrests, approximately how many men
did you have?
A. Approximately fifty-five men.
Q. All right, sir. Now, what did you do when you first
got to this location?
A. I looked west when I got out of the car, when I first
got to this location, I looked west on Lynch Street. Traffic
between Poindexter and Rose Street was congested; what cars was
in there was congested at that time. I saw approximately 200
people in parade formation marching toward me, beyond Rose Street,
coming toward me at that time. They were out in the middle of
the street. They varied anywhere from six abreast down to two
abreast. They were marching down the middle of the street, had
traffic tied up, — what traffic was in that area was tied up and
couldn* t move .
Q. All right, sir, and did these people stay in the middle
of the street then as they approached you?
A. They did, sir.
Q. What did you then do?
A. When those people approached me and the detail of men
that I had there, we set up a scrimmage line; we stopped this
group of people. I asked them on two different occasions did
they have a permit to parade.
Q. How did you go about this, Chief?
A. I used a loud speaker, or a bullhorn.
B. Armstrong, Dir. 1657.
Q. How far could that bullhorn be heard?
A. I would say approximately two blocks, maybe three.
Q. Then all of this 200 people could hear everything you
said on this bullhorn?
A. I will say they could, sir.
Q. And what did you say?
A. I asked them did they have a permit to parade.
Q. How many times did you ask them that?
A. I asked them that on two different occasions.
Q. Well, did they have a permit to parade?
A. No one produced a permit to parade.
Q. Let me ask you this, Ckief. In your capacity as Traf
fic Superintendent of the police, are you notified in every
instance in which a permit to parade is issued by the Mayor and
City Council of Jackson?
A . Yes sir.
Q. Was a permit in fact issued on this occasion to this
group or any other group to have a parade in this area of town,
or anywhere else?
A. No sir.
Q. Now, go ahead. You told us that you asked them twice
if they had a permit to parade and they didn’t have one, and what
happened then, at that point?
A. I asked them then to disperse and move out of the
street. I’d say approximately from 50 to 55 did disperse, moved
out of the street, moved back up on the sidewalk. I waited some
half a minute, or a minute approximately, I asked them to disperse
again, giving them ample time to get out of the street if they
would. They continued to stay in the formation, the group that I
arrested continued to stay in the formation out in the street.
They continued to violate the law in my presence. I placed them
under arrest and told my men to take them into custody.
Q. All right, Chief. Now, how many persons did you
arrest on this occasion?
A. 146.
Q. Can you tell me how many of that 146 were adults and
how many were juveniles?
A. There was 72 adults and there was 74 juveniles.
Q. Did you have all of these persons, — how many did you
say, 146 — did you have all of these 146 persons under observa
tion and in your sight during the time of the arrest?
A. I did, sir.
Q. And could you see all of your men in the vicinity of
these people who were arrested?
A. I could, sir.
Q. Was there any instance in which police used their clubs
in any way, or night sticks?
A. No sir, there was not.
Q. And, did you have any difficulty with the arrests in
B. Armstrong, Dir. 1658.
any form, fashion, or shape?
B. Armstrong, Dir, .1659,
A. None whatsoever.
Q. Bid you see Reverend King on that occasion, anywhere
in that area?
A.
Q.
A.
and moved
where they
a hundred
Q.
At a distance.
And where was he?
After they were arrested, placed in the patrol wagon,
out, I moved up the street approximately a block from
were arrested and I did see Reverend King approximately
yards back up the street.
All right, sir. Now, were there any flags in this
group?
A. Yes sir, there were.
Q. Well, did they have anything else, other than flags?
A. Nothing but flags.
Q. All right, sir. Now, what, if anything, did you have
done in relation to these flags?
A. I had my men to take the flags and we taken them to
Headquarters, to the police station like we do any other thing
that we confiscate when we make an arrest. They were tagged,
and they are tagged, and placed at Headquarters now.
Q. All right, sir, and they there tagged for identifica
tion for use in any State Court action?
A. That’s right, sir.
q . Were any of these flags torn, or in any way mutilated,
by the police officers?
B. Armstrong, Dir. 1660.
A. None at all, sir.
Q. And you saw all these flags removed by your officers?
MR. BELLs
That’s a leading question, Your Honor —
THE WITNESS:
A . I did, sir.
MR a BELL «
He can answer, Your Honor, without counsel leading him
like that.
THE COURT:
I’ll sustain the objection.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Let me ask you this, Chief Armstrong. Were you on
duty on June 15th?
A . I wa s .
Q. Were you in your capacity as Deputy Chief of Police?
A . I wa s, sir .
Q. All right, sir. Now, did you become involved in your
line of duty in any particular incident that happened on this day?
A. I did, sir.
Q. What was this, what time, and what were the circum
stances generally?
A. It happened on Farish Street and it was at the end of
the mournful parade of the Medgar Evers funeral march.
Q. All right • Now, what happened to these after the
B. Armstrong, Dir. 1661.
parade, — the funeral procession?
A. This group of people who had followed this funeral pro
cession to the funeral home up there, must have been some 3,500
or 4,000 of them approximately in that area. Shortly after we
pulled the escort in there, they removed Medgar Evers* body,
taken it into the funeral home, this mob went completely wild up
there.
Q. Now, in what manner did they go wild and where was
this that you are talking about, Chief?
A. Well, it started in front of the funeral home, in
approximately the 400 block of Farish Street, they moved back
down Farish Street towards Capitol Street, just taking the whole
street as they come back down through there shouting, and push
ing, and running, and hollering and carrying on, like a .bunch of
wild people.
Q. Where were you during this time, Chief?
A. Well, at the starting of it, I was on the north end
because I had led the funeral procession from the Temple to the
funeral home. I got back down Farish Street as far as as
Griffith Street and when this group had moved back towards the
city, just two blocks from Capitol Street, I went west on
Griffith Street and come around and got into Amite Street, Amite
and Farish Street, and about, I would say, it was approximately
two blocks of people in the street. The block was full from
Capitol Street back to Farish Street shouting and hollering,
B. Armstrong, Dir. 1662.
throwing brick:s and bottles and so on and then from Farish Street
back nearly to Griffith Street, that whole block wa s full.
Q. Well, now, who were they throwing these bricks, glass
bottles and so on at?
A. They were throwing at the police .
Q. All right, now, what precipitated or bro ught this
action on that these people wer e engaged in, do you know?
A. I don’t know, sir. They just went wild up there.
Q. Now , what did you do then, Chief?
A. Chief Ray and I,— I stayed at Amite Street and Farish
Street unt il they moved the biggest part of these people back up
Farish Str e et. They went back north on Farish Stre et, I moved
up Fari. sh Stre et then to Griffith Street and I had a detail of
men on traf f ic under my jurisdiction; I had all traffic blocked
out of thi s ar ea . Chief Ray on this occasion was in charge of
the detail of men down there. After they moved back up past
Griffith Street, approximately 100 or 150 feet, I was in the
position where I could see back up there. They were standing out
in the street throwing bricks, bottles and everything else at the
police where the police had their scrimmage line set up at
Griffith Street.
Q. All right, Chief, go ahead and tell us then what
happened after that?
A. A gentleman, who I later met and talked to, a Mr.
John Doar—
B. Armstrong, Dir. 1663.
Q. B-o-a-r?
A. Yes sir . — - Came up and —
Q. Who was he, Chief?
A. He is with the Justice Department.
Q. Attorney General?
A. Attorney General’s office. He came up and I did see
he and Chief Ray talking together and Mr. Doar, — they were still
throwing bricks and bottles toward the police. Mr. Doar and
Chief Ray talked together, — that was a distance and I didn’t
know anything that was said between them. Mr. Doar left then,
left Chief Ray, went towards this mob of people that was throwing
bricks and bottles and I don’t know what was said up there at all,
but the group broke up and moved out. In the meantime, the
street was littered with bricks, glass and things. I had called
the Sanitary Department; they had brought a water truck down
there. This water truck was under my jurisdiction because I had
called him there. I told him that I wanted him to wash the
street. He made an effort to wash Farish Street after the crowd
had moved out of the street.
We had moved all of our men out of there at that time.
Chief Ray and I had discussed it. He had moved all of his men
out. I had moved the biggest part of mine out of the area, still
having the area blocked out with traffic men and I was going to
wash the street where traffic could flow through there without
getting bricks and bottles in their tires and so on; getting
B. Armstrong, Dir. 1664.
their car tires tore up. This truck made one, -- this water
truck made one trip up through there and they started throwing at
it. I was in a position where I could see. The truck came back
down to where I was at. I moved this truck out of there and I
was one of the last to leave that area after we had cleared all
of our men out and, as you know, Farish Street is a one-way
street going north; I didn’t make an effort to go north. I come
back down Farish Street the wrong way.
People were walking up and down the sidewalk cussing,
and jeering at us --
Q. Who was this that was cussing and jeering at you?
A. People on the sidewalk in Farish Street, they were
cussing at us and jeering at us and telling us to get out of
there and all with cuss words, and we moved out of the area.
Q. Now, in your almost 22 years as a police officer, have
you ever seen anything that equaled this situation?
MR. BELL:
Your Honor, we object.
THE COURT:
Overruled .
THE WITNESS:
A. No sir, I never have.
MR. TRAVIS:
Your witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION
B. Armstrong, C r . 1665.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Chief Armstrong, when parade permits are refused, do
you know about it?
A. Normally I would.
Q. Do you know that a parade permit had been refused to
Medgar Evers during the summer?
A . I did not.
Q. You didn’t know that? On this Lynch Street incident,
I have forgotten the date of it — June 12th, you said you were
at Lynch and Poindexter?
A. That’s where I went to, yes mam.
Q. How far was that from the Masonic Temple?
A. It’s approximately two, you might say, three blocks.
Q. Three blocks from the Masonic Temple?
A. Uh huh.
Q. Now, this is a Negro neighborhood, isn’t it, Lynch
Street in this area?
A . That’s right.
Q. Now, you say you watched the arrests after you stopped
the people?
A . I did .
Q. And your police line was across from sidewalk to side
walk?
A. After I arrested the people, my police line moved around
out in the street and when they brought them out, theythe group
B. Armstrong, Cr. 1666.
taken them out and loaded them in the paddy wagon.
Q u are getting ahead of me though. You did set up a
line across the street?
A . I di d .
Q. And you set that up as soon as you saw the people
coming --
A . That *s right.
Q. Now, at the time that you stopped them and placed them
under arrest, where were you with reference to the line that was
across the street?
A. Standing right side of the line.
Q. Where you stood were you on the sidewalk or on the
street?
A. I was on the street.
Q. You were on the street. Now, did you stay in that same
po sition?
A. I stayed in that same position until after I placed
them under arrest and I was in a position so that I could see
everything that went on the whole time that the activity out there
at Lynch and Poindexter was going on.
Q. Now, you had some 100 and some people marching -down flie
street, right?
A. They moved down close to —
Q. Now, you say they, you mean your police or the people?
A. The people moved down close to my line of men. When
B. Armstrong, Cr . 1667 .
I made my arrests, I told my men to take them in custody.
Part of my men went up one side, part of them stayed in front, I
stayed in a corner where I could see what was going on all the
time.
Q. So your policemen were actually surrounding the group?
A. They had them in a kind of shape.
Q. So that you were at one point and the police line was
going up one way and then another?
A. And I was in a position where I could see over the
whole thing.
Q. Now, did you stay stationary all during the time the
arrests were being made?
A . I did not.
Q. You had to walk up and down --
A. I walked around so I could see what was going on.
Q. So at times when you walked in one direction, you
couldn’t see what was going on in the other direction --
A. I was looking towards the group at all times.
Q. I know you were looking toward the group, but can you
say with absolute assurance that you saw everything that went on
on that street at that time?
A. In that particular area where the arrest was made, I
can.
Q. You saw each one of them arrested^
A. I arrested the group myself.
B. Armstrong, Cr. 1668.
Q. I know that, but I meant each one of them taken into
custody?
A . I did.
Q. Respite the fact that you were walking around, you are
sure of this?
A . I a m sure of that.
Q. Is this the only arrest that you have participated in,
Chief Armstrong?
A . It i s not .
Q. Which other ones did you participate in?
A. I participated in a group of preachers on Pearl Street.
Q. That was the group that the charges were later dropped
against?
A . That’ s right.
Q. And those are the only two?
A . That’s right.
Q. Now, on the 15th, you had left the area of Farish
Street and you went around and came up Griffith Street to see what
had happened when this trouble started?
A. No, I didn’t, -- I didn’t say that. I said that I was
in the area of Farish Street and I followed this mob of people
who had taken the street over down to Griffith Street and it was
so full I went around Griffith Street, I went down Griffith
Street, then turned down and then come back into Amite Street .
Q. Now to go down Griffith Street and come back on Amite
B. Armstrong, C r . 1669 .
Street, you had to leave Farish Street?
A . I did .
Q. You went around in a circle?
A. One block.
Q. So, what was going on when this trouble started?
While you were making the circle you were not in a position to
see since you weren’t there.
A. The trouble had started before I ever left Farish
Street. I went around to try to get into the area where I could
be of some assistance.
Q. You were trying to get toward the front of the group
then?
A . That’s right.
Q. And in order to do that, you had to make the circle
and go around to the front of the group?
A. That’s right. I didn’t get to the front of the group
because they were faster than I was. The block between Farish
and Capitol was full when I got to Amite.
Q. So when you got back you were essentially in the same
position that you were when you started?
A. No, I was about half way between it.
Q. I meant with reference to the crowd?
A. No, it was about half as many on one end of me then as
it was on the other.
Q. But during this time your attention, you were
B. Armstrong, C r . 1670.
concentrated toward the front of the group, right?
A. No, I was —— well --no, not the front of the group. I
was trying to get around so that maybe I could be of some assist
ance to cut part of this group off.
Q. Are we talking about —
A. We split the mob.
Q. We, you speak of «we” —
A. The Police Department split the mob. You had two block
rushing in a mob, violent, shouting, and hollering, and singing.
Q. Are you telling me that there were a line of police,
and then people and the some more police and then people?
A. I got enough police in there that I stopped about a
third of them, back on the other end. They never did get in the
first block.
Q. Toward the rear of them?
A . That’s right .
Q. Of these two blocks?
A. Uh huh.
Q. But I am still trying — what I’m trying to satisfy
myself about is when you found it necessary to go around the
block to come back to Farish, you couldn’t ascertain what was
going on at Farish at that time?
A. I could not.
Q. Now, you said you had police out there and Chief Ray
had police out there, there were State Police out there too,
B. Armstrong, C r . 1671.
weren't
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
there?
There were.
And they had guns, rifles?
They did.
About how many of them were there?
I couldn’t tell you.
Could you give me an estimate?
I could not estimate.
And they had police dogs out there also?
Possible.
Do you remember seeing any police dogs?
I believe I seen two.
Were they with your group or with the State Police?
They were with our group.
With the group that you were over?
No, with the group of police th^t was down there.
Were they with the group that you commanded?
They were not with the traffic men.
Were they with Captain Ray’s group?
Probably with Chief Ray’s.
Do you know how many policemen in all were down there?
I do not .
Now, you said that there had been something like thirty-
five hundred,;to four thousand people in this funeral procession
initially, when it got to the funeral home?
B. Armstrong, Cr. 1672.
A. When it got to the funeral home, it was — I'd say,
two thousand people, when we got to the funeral it was two
thousand people in the area around the funeral home.
Q. Do you know whether these were the same group in the
procession or not?
A. Some of them.
Q. And some of them were not?
A. Some of them, — the two thousand people that was around
the funeral home, they were not in the procession, I don^t know
where they come from. When we pulled the funeral procession in,
I led it in, the sidewalks in the area around there, the yards
and so on was full of people, plus the ones that was following
the funeral procession.
Q. So that this were not all people who had been in the
funeral procession?
A. I wouldnH say that. I couldn*t say that, it was quite
a crowd up there.
Q. Were you there when the people who had been in the
funeral procession, when some of them began to leave the area and
go about their business? For instance, some of the group that
had been in the front of it? Did you observe this?
A. I was in a position where I could see some very few
people, some of the preachers and so on, did leave the area,
left there walking.
Q. Then there were those who did leave?
B. Armstrong, C r . 1673 .
A. There were some that left the area walking.
Q. When you were there on the 15th after this funeral,
Chief Armstrong, you weren’t in a position to see what was going
on at the back of the procession, were you, when it got to
Farish Street, since you were at the front trying to see what
was going on there?
A. No, you couldn’t see, it was so many people in there,
you couldn’t see down to the back of it.
Q. So that most of your attention was confined in the
Capitol Street area?
A. No, most of my attention was confined to the Farish
Street area .
Q. I meant Farish where it meets Capitol.
A. I was on Farish Street up near the funeral home. I
never did come back down to Farish and Capitol.
Q. You didn’t get to Capitol Street?
A. I never did get to Capitol Street. Once I went —
MRS. MORRIS:
Thank you.
JUDGE CARL GUERNSEY
called as a witness for the Defendants, after first being duly
sworn, testified as follows:
MR. TRAVIS:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q. Would you state your name, age and address, please?
C. Guernsey, Dir. 1674.
A. I am Carl Guernsey, my age is 38 and I live at 4729
Kings Highway, Jackson, Mississippi.
Q. What is your position?
A. I am Judge of the County Court, presiding over the
Youth Court Division.
Q. How were you, — how did you come to be Youth Court
and County Court Judge?
A. Originally by appointment of Governor J. P. Coleman in
1959, later by re—appointment and then by election.
Q. All right, sir,
A. That’s correct.
Q. And you, indivi
County Court Judge, are
A. No , I am not.
Q. Neither is the
A. No, it is not .
Q. What, Judge Gue
Court and where does the
from?
A. The Youth Court
lation, involving any child from 10 through 17 years of age,
except in traffic offenses or in capital cases. The authority
of the Youth Court is derived from the laws of 1946, the Youth
Court Act which was patterned . after the Standard Juvenile Court
Act, which was something of a model for Juvenile Court Acts of
C, Guernsey, Dir. 1675.
the 50 states.
Q. Now, the City of Jackson falls within the jurisdiction
of your Court, does it not?
A. Entirely.
Q. Entirely, and what, when you say Youth Court, what per
sons can be handled through your Court as to ages?
A. The Youth Court can deal with children through 17, that
is until the 18th birthday with a provision for retention of
jurisdiction until they are 20. We can deal also with adults
responsible for the behavior of juveniles. On our neglect juris
diction, we have no minimum age limit; on our deliquency jurisdic
tion, we don’t commence until the 10th birthday.
Q. D o you, as Youth Court Judge, have full and complete
jurisdiction of all persons being held under the Youth Court Act?
A. Yes, and the nature of the Youth Court Act, as is true,
I think, in all states, is such that the Court itself controls
whether matters will be handled on a formal or informal basis
and whether the child in question will be retained or released,
pending hearing.
Q. Well, that then is in the discretion of the Youth Court
Judge, and you in this particular situation, insofar as the City
of Jackson is concerned?
A. Yes, that Is correct.
Q. Now, directing your attention, Judge Guernsey, to last
summer, particularly the months of May and June, I’ll ask you if
C. Guernsey, Dir. 1676.
you had occasion, in your official capacity as Youth Court Judge,
andle certain juveniles that were arrested in the City of
Jackson by the Police Dena ».+• -e .Department for participating in various
types of disorders?
A. Yes, I did have.
Q. Would you tell the Court the number that you handled,
juveniles that you handled arising from this type of, these
types of situations during the summer months, in particular the
months of May and June?.
A. From May 31st through July, we handled a total of 665
children.
Q. 665 children. Now, how many of them were handled as
juveniles?
A. 650 were handled as juveniles; 15 were referred back to
Police Court .
Q. When you say they were referred back to Police Court,
Judge Guernsey, what do you mean by that?
A. The Police Court or the Municipal Court can act on a
violation of the law by a juvenile only upon the certification
by the Youth Court, they certify to these children.
Q. In other words, then, you certified these 15 persons
back to the Municipal Court to be handled as adults according to
statues?
A. That is correct.
Q. Then, there were 650 of these juveniles, - when we say
C. Guernsey, Dir. 1677.
juveniles, we are speaking of persons under 18 years of age, i:
t h a t CO]meet?
A. That is co
Q. That were
tell u s what the di
con si St (sd of?
A. Yes. Tho s
yoi
>50 cases were, what they
to their parents, immediately upon their parents calling for them,
on two conditions. That is that the parent agreed to do every
thing within his power in the interest of the child’s safety to
keep that child from being involved in further demonstrations,
and the other condition that the child himself would agree to be
responsive to the authority and to the discipline of the parent.
Q. Those were decisions and instructions that were given
by you?
A. That is correct.
Q. Did the City of Jackson or any official of the City of
Jackson, or representative of the City of Jackson, have anything
to do with the making of that decision or those instructions, or
was that your function entirely?
A. You, Mr. Travis, Mr. Nichols, Mr. Tom Watkins, repre
senting the City, had appeared when it wa s -indicat ed that there
might be difficulty and requested leniency of the Court on
behalf of any children who were involved and who could safely be
relea sed .
C. Guernsey, Dir 1678 .
Q. Now, from the time these children were placed in deten
tion until the time they were released, were they under your
direct supervision and control?
A. Under the law, they very definitely were.
Q. And, insofar as these particular individuals were con
cerned, did you exercise that authority?
A. Yes, completely and there was no interference with that
authority whatsoever.
MR. BELL:
Just for the record, I wonder if counsel could be
directed to ask questions that aren’t leading, Your Honor, just
as they were answered.
THE COURT :
Yes, don’t lead him.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Judge Guernsey, you were about to tell the Court in
what manner you disposed of these 650 juveniles.
A. All right. Those that were arrested on May 31st and on
June 1st were released without formal petition. Those arrested
after June 1st, a petition was filed, summons was served on the
child and on the parents; they were brought into Court. No dis
position was made on those who appeared for one offense, rather
the cases were held open without adjudication for a term of one
year .
Q. And what disposition was made insofar as the juveniles
Co Guernsey, Dir. 1679.
were concerned, custody-wise?
A. They were released to the custody of their parents.
Q. State for the Court just what action you took to bring
about the release of these juveniles — was there a large volume
of them that went at one time?
A. On the night of May the 31st there were, - the number I
am not sure of — it was around 400 that were involved in demon
strations that were brought into custody at one time. Because of
the large number at that time, and again on June 1st, seeing that
we wouldn't be able to expedite the release of these children
nearly rapidly enough by having them transported to our office
and met by their parents there, we went down to the fair grounds
and .set up a temporary courtroom, I might say in a converted
shower down there. We remained down there the first night until
about 4:00 o'clock the following morning in order to release all
who could be released.
We came back early the next morning, early Saturday
morning, about 8:30 or 9:00; remained down there until approxi
mately 11:00 or 12:00 o'clock at night and then came back Sunday
immediately after church and released all the remaining children
whose families would come for them.
Q. Were they released as promptly as the matter could be
disposed of?
A. Yes they were. After the first few came up for con- •
sideration, police officers would work with us in processing
C. Guernsey, Dir. 1680.
these things as rapidly as possible. In other words, getting
the children out, getting the parents and the children together
order to effect their release at the earliest possible moment.
Q. They were assisting you, then?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Now, in regards to the 15 who you stated you certified
back to the Police Court to be held as adults, would you tell the
Court why this was, why they were ordered by you to be held as
adults and not to be treated as juveniles?
A. Some of them had previous juvenile records which,
coupled with the one or more offenses involved here, indicated
that they would not respond to the Youth Court programs available
for them. Some of them became involved in two or more demonstra
tions, so that we knew that under the circumstances then prevail
ing we could not, with the limited personnel that we had, provide
sufficient supervision to deal with them effectively. None of
them were referred back, of what you would term "tender years",
it was the older violators that we did refer back to the Police
Court .
Q. All right, sir. Now, from the time that these children
were arrested until the time that disposition was made for their
release by you, whose supervision, control and jurisdiction were
they under?
A. They were, as the law indicates, under the supervision
and control of the Court.
C. Guernsey, Dir. 1681.
Q. That is
A. That is
Q. And you •
A. That is
Q* Then you
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did
these children during this period of time, from the arrests up
until you disposed of them or were they under your authority?
A. No, the City of Jackson provided personnel to operate
under the Court’s supervision, but at no time was there any action
other than that which would be indicated.
Q. Judge Guernsey, do you recall an incident involving one
of these minors, I believe her name was Shirley Catchings?
A. Yes, I do very well.
Q. All right, would you tell His Honor what happened, —
when was this, do you recall the date, approximately, or the
date if you know it?
A. No, I don’t remember the date. I think it could very
easily have been June 1st, but I am not certain about that.
Q. What happened?
A. This child’s mother came down to the fair grounds to
get her and when we found out who it was she was after, word was
sent into the building reserved for girls in the same fashion
that it had been sent in before and the girl refused to come out.
C. Guernsey, Dir. 1682.
Now, at the point, before we sent anyone in there for her, the
mother said, "I’d like to go in and get her out of there myself."
Q. Do you recall the mother’s name?
A. Bennie Catchings, I believe was her name.
But the mother went into the building and said that the
child had refused to come out with her. At that time I told the
mother that we would send someone in there to get her out and
absolutely no protest was made, no request was made that she be
allowed to stay in there.
Two officers went in and I went in with the officers.
The child ran into the washroom, the door remained open, and one
of the officers went in after her and brought her out by the arm.
I am convinced that when he did so, he used only the amount of
force that was necessary to bring her out.
Q. Were both of these officers acting under your direction?
A. Yes, they certainly were.
Q. Tell us what transpired after that.
A. After the officer grabbed her by the arm and was bring
ing her out, she was kicking and screaming. They came roughly
two-thirds of the way out of the building, from the washroom to
the exit, under exactly the same circumstances, when the mother
came up behind the officer who had the child, grabbed hold of
him, I don’t know what she was doing, but she was attempting to
wrestle him off, and at that time Officer Ates came up behind
her and did, with the heel of his hand, hit her across the back
C. Guernsey, Dir. 1683.
of the shoulder for the purpose, — I assume for the purpose of
getting her to release his fellow officer.
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I ask that the purpose be stricken.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Did she leave after that?
A . Yes, the child did come out, the mother came out and,
sub sequently, the child and mother did leave to gether .
Q. Insofar as the detention area for these juveniles were
cone erned, Judge Guernsey, did you supervise and look over the
f aci lities, the sleeping and eating faciliti es?
A . Yes, I certainly did. I wa s down there during almost
all o f the time, the first several days that they were down the
almo st all of the time, except say from midnight until 8:00 in
the moirning.
Q. Would you describe these eating and sleeping faciliti e
as satisfactory?
A. Yes, very definitely so. I have been to Boy Scout
camps that were not as well kept.
MR. TRAVIS:
Your witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION
MRS. MORRIS?
C. Guernsey, Cr. 1684 .
Q. Judge Guernsey, you said that you kept a number of
these juvenile cases to be disposed of open for one year without
any final disposition.
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. During that period, are these people required to stay
out of any civil rights demonstrations, is that a condition of
it?
A. To avoid any further violation of the law.
i s
Q. Well, since you are the one to determine what/ a violation
of the law, would participation in civil rights demonstrations
come within that definition?
A. I couldn’t prejudge that in every case. I can conceive
of civil rights demonstrations which would be a violation of the
law. I can conceive of some which would not be.
Q. And, in some of these instances when you first talked
to these juveniles you tried, -*■> you testified that you tried
to get them to promise to stay out of demonstrations and their
parents to promise to use whatever influence they had over the
child to keep them out.
A . Yes, I did.
Q. Now, you said that after June 1st petitions were filed
and summons were served. Was this a petition alleging that the
child was a juvenile delinquent?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. So that all of them were adjudicated juvenile delinquents
C. Guernsey, C r . 1685.
that were dealt with after June the 1st?
A. None of them were adjudicated. The cases were held
open .
Q. Are all of the 650 cases being held open?
A. No, those that were involved May 31st and June 1st,
there was no petition filed and they were dealt with informally.
Q. Subsequent to June 1st?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, the ones after June 1st where there were petitions
and summons, they were adjudicated juvenile delinquents in
those -
A. There has been no adjudications made.
Q. Those are the cases that are held open at the present
time .
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, I assume it to be closed within a year of the time
the incident occurred.
A. That is correct.
Q. And the remaining ones, the 15 that you talked about,that
were sent over to the City Court to be handled as adults?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, you described this incident with Shirley Catchings.
Do you know how old she was at that time?
A. I believe she was 14 or 15, I could refresh my memory,
but
C , Guernsey, C r . 1686 .
Q. 3)o you recall how large she was?
A, She was an average child for her age, she wasn’t large,
she wasn’t small.
Q, Average for a 14 year old?
A. That is correct.
Q. And how old was the policeman who went after her?
A. He was perhaps five,-10 or five,-11; 175 or 185 pounds.
Q. When he brought the child out of the washroom where he
had gone to get her, you said that he brought her out by the arm,
did he have her arm behind her, to the best of your recollection?
A. I do not recall that he did have, but I wouldn’t say
that, he didn’t have.
Q. Where were you standing when this was going on?
A, When he was coming out of the washroom, he was facing
me. When he turned and was going toward the door then his back
was to me. In other words, I was standing at a vantage point
that was to the west of the washroom, almost due west of the
washroom.
Q. And during the time that he came out of the washroom and
he passed you going toward the door, he still had the Catchings
girl by the arm?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q, Now, where did the incident with her mother take place,
near the door?
A. It was near the exit
C. Guernsey, Cr. 1687.
Q. Bo you recall if it was between the washroom and the
door, approximately?
A. They didn’t go directly from the washroom to the exit
door, there was sort of an arc they made in there. It would
have been, oh perhaps, 75 yards from the washroom door to the
exit the way they went.
Q. Was the mother on the inside of the building or on the
outside of the building?
A. She was on the inside of the building.
Q. By the door?
A. Yes, that is correct.
MRS. MORRIS:
No further questions.
MR. S. B. BARNES
called as a witness for the Defendants, after being duly sworn,
testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Would you give your name, age, and address to the Court
Reporter please sir?
A. S. B. Barnes, 1030 Claiborne Street, Jackson, age 52.
Q. Mr. Barnes, by whom are you employed?
A. The Police Department of the City of Jackson, Mississippi.
Q. How long have you been employed by the Police Department
of the City of Jackson?
S. B. Barnes, J)ir . 1688 .
A. Approximately 25 years.
Q. Has that been continuous service?
A . Yes.
Q. Do you hold any rank with the Police Department?
A. Deputy Chief of Detectives.
Q. Did you hold that rank on May 31, 1963?
A . Yes .
Q. And you have held it since that time?
A . Yes .
Q. Were you on duty on May 31 and several weeks following
that date?
A . Yes.
May
at
for
at
hut
Q. What duty did you have with the Police Department on
31, 1963?
A. I was placed in charge of the temporary jail facility
the fair grounds.
Q. Thatis here in the City of Jackson?
A . Yes sir .
Q. Now, would you describe that temporary jail facility
the Court, please?
A. This is two large buildings located on the fair grounds
the east end of Capitol Street. I believe they are quonset
type, approximately 200 feet long, about 100 feet wide, with
windows and doors all around.
Q. Are they flat buildings?
S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1689.
A. They are oval-shaped type buildings.
Q. The roofs are?
A. The roofs are oval-shaped, yes.
Q. Now, you mentioned the buildings, there are two of them,
more than one?
A , Two buildings.
Q. And, how are they located in relation to each other?
A. I believe the buildings lengthwise would be running east
and west. I’d say there was a brick patio between the two build
ings about 40 to 50 feet wide.
Q. Now, I hand you a photograph here and ask if you can
identify it, Mr. Barnes?
A. This is a photograph of the two buildings with the
camera facing east; it is just east of Jefferson Street. It is
on the fair ground property.
Q. Does that photograph accurately portray these two build
ings on that date?
A . Yes.
MR. NICHOLS:
We offer this as Exhibit No. 54.
MR. BELL:
If he is offering these in evidence now, the first one
there, again we are kind of in the dark as to what the relevance
of this is going to be.
THE COURT:
S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1690.
Your objection is supposed to point to me irrelevance
and I’ll overrule your objection and let it be admitted in evi
dence, Defendants* Exhibit 54. Go ahead.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Now, you stated you were in charge of the jail?
A . Yes .
Q. And, did you supervise all of the activities on the part
of the jailers down there?
A . Yes.
Q. Such as food for the prisoners and sleeping accommoda
tions, did that come under your charge?
A . Yes.
Q. Was food served to the prisoners there?
A . Yes .
Q. How often was it served?
A. Three times a day.
Q. Did you have occasion to eat the food on occasion your
self?
A. I did.
Q.. I hand you a photograph and ask you if you can identify
that for me, please?
A. This is the benches set up between the two buildings for
the prisoners to eat from and they are being served in a chow
line in groups of about 12 or 15 at a time. They are allowed to
go to these benches and sit and eat their food there.
Q. 3)oes that photograph accurately portray those prisoners
as they sat at a meal there?
A . Yes.
MR. NICHOLS:
If it please the Court, we offer this as Exhibit No. 55.
THE COURT:
All right, it may be admitted in evidence and marked as
Defendants’ Exhibit 55.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-55.)
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Now, Mr. Barnes, are you familiar with any sleeping
arrangements that might have been made for the prisoners?
A . Yes .
Q. Would you tell what, if anything, was done to afford
the prisoners sleeping accommodations?
A. It consisted of cots and mattresses, and blankets.
Q. Now, I hand you a photograph here and ask you if you
can identify that for me?
A. This is a picture of some of the prisoners that was
taken at the time an inspection was made at the women’s cell.
Q. Can you identify any of the people in the photograph?
A. Yes, I identify Barbara Morris, attorney, and a member
of the Justice Department, his last name is Henderson.
Q. Was he an attorney with the Justice Department?
S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1691.
A . Yes .
S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1692.
MR. NICHOLS:
May it please the Court, we offer this —
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I am going to object to that and the next
two he intends to put into evidence. I donTt think it has any
relevance to this case at all because whether or not the grounds
were inspected could not be of any less moment. We are talking
here about what happened as a matter of fact.
THE COURT:
All right, I’ll overrule the objection. This photograph
may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. Go ahead.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-56.)
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Now, I hand you another photograph and ask you if you
can identify that, please sir?
A. This is a concrete patio shed covered by, -- on the
east end of the buildings which extends across from each build
ing .
Q. Is this part of the
A. Yes .
Q. And, what does this ;
A. Let’s see, it was ta
Wilson, Chief Ray, and a memb
Justice Department, I don’t
were leaving the south building, which is the men’s cell,
S . B . Barnes, Dir . 1693 .
walking to the women’s cell for an inspection tour.
MR. NICHOLS:
May it please the Court, we offer this as Defendants’
Exhibit —
MRS. MORRIS:
Did you note my objection to the remaining photographs?
THE COURT:
it’s overruled. It may be admitted in evi
dence and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the Exhibit as D-57.)
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Now, you mentioned these inspections. Am I to under
stand that there was more than one inspection of this jail by
the Justice Department?
A. Will you repeat your question?
Q. Am I to understand that there was more than one inspec
tion of this jail by parties from the Justice Department?
A . Yes.
Q. How many were there?
A . Two .
Q. Now, Chief Barnes, as concerns the sleeping accommoda
tions, were they, — no, strike that. Now, give me the procedure
if you would briefly, Chief Barnes, as to just what happened
when prisoners were brought to this temporary jail there. At
what point did you take them into your custody and then tell me
S . B . Barnes, D i r . .16 94 .
what happened, if anything?
A. The first group arrested was brought in, which was a
large number; They were unloaded between the two buildings on
the brick patio, or concrete patio. They were all placed into
t e building to the north, north building. They were immediately
booked and an arrest sheet made of each person, starting with the
males and they were transferred to the south building.
Q. What about the females?
A. From then on as they were brought in, they were, of
course, separated at that time, booked and separated before they
went into the building.
Q. Now, on each of the deposits made to the jail, was the
same procedure followed?
A . Yes .
Q. They were booked and separated according to sex, is that
correct ?
A . Yes.
Q. Now, Captain Barnes, were these sleeping accommodations
and accommodations for feeding the prisoners and toilet facilities,
were they adequate for the number of people you had there?
A . Y e s .
MR. BELL:
I object, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
Overruled. What do yo>u mean by adequate?
S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1695
THE WITNESS:
I would take, Judge, to be satisfactory bedding for
someone to sleep, which consists of cots, mattresses, and
blanket s.
THE COURT:
Take the toilet facilities, what sort of facilities did
you have for toilets?
THE WITNESS:
I didn’t understand you, sir.
THE COURT:
Toilet facilities, what sort of facilities did you have
for that? That was a part of his question.
THE WITNESS:
I believe, Judge, there is three toilets in each build
ing. In other words, on each end of the building, there is
either three or four toilets.
THE COURT:
For each sex?
THE WITNESS:
Yes, in other words, that would be the men’s cell would
have three and the women’s cell would have three.
THE COURT:
What other accommodation did you have in the toilet area?
THE WITNESS:
What other accommodations?
S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1696.
THE COURT:
Yes sir.
THE WITNESS:
Do you mean with reference to bathing, showers?
THE COURT:
Well, did you have such a thing?
THE WITNESS:
We had showers provided for them and they were allowed
to bathe each day.
THE COURT:
Hot and cold showers?
THE WITNESS:
Did not have any hot water at that time, no sir.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Mr. Barnes, you were in charge of the jail on May 31
and you testified you received a certain number of prisoners
at your temporary jail on that date, is that correct?
A . Y e s .
Q. After these parties were booked as you have outlined
and separated as to sex, the women in one cell and the men in
another, what was the demeanor of those prisoners thereafter?
A. It was quite an ordeal as far as hollering, singing,
and destroying property! I believe most of the windows were
broken out that afternoon and late in the night all around the
buildings .
S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1697.
Q. Who broke the windows out ?
A. The prisoners •
Q. How long did this uproar keep up?
A. I’d say about Mo nday before they actually
to reasoning where you could talk with them.
Q. Did they keep up all night?
A. All night long.
MR c NICHOLS i
settled down
That’s all I have.
CROSS EXAMINATION
MR » BELLs
Q. How many nights were the fair grounds used to hold the
prisoners, Chief Barnes, before cots and blankets were brought
in?
A. They were offered cots, mattresses and blankets the
first night they were booked. The men prisoners destroyed and
tore up three cots as we were placing them in the cell and said
that they did not want cots. We offered them to the women’s
cell and they refused cots and mattressses or blankets either.
Q. When were the cots placed in the facility?
A. I thi.nk the women’s accept ed the blankets on Saturday
night and[ all prisoners accepted cots and mattres s es on Sunday
Q. You indicat ed as to cots and some other acti vity that
it was property damage and you also indicated, «*— well you
indicated windows being broken and things of this nature. Now,
S. B, Barnes, Cr. 1698 .
what was done by the police to find out who was responsible for
this damage and what action was taken against the persons respons
ible for the damage?
A, It was almost impossible, it was impossible to say who
actually broke the windows out or destroyed any property inside.
Q. Now, you said that these people who had been arrested
while participating in civil rights demonstrations in groups up
to 400 had been brought into your facility by the police, and yet
you were unable once they were in your custody to find out who,
if any of them, had taken part in this destruction of property,
is that your testimony?
A. I wouldn’t know them by name. It was a large group and
it was impossible to point out a particular one, exactly what he
did. You could stand on the outside of the building and see the
steel frames and glass come out on the building on the outside.
Q. So when you offered, your men offered the first few cots
on, you indicate the first night, you say these were destroyed.
You didn’t know who had destroyed this property?
A. I would say the group of prisoners therej I would not
know them by name.
Q. Was there any other way to ascertain who was responsible
for the destruction?
A. Not at that time because they were so unruly, it would
have been impossible to make that type investigation.
Q. So you gave out no further cots on the first night?
S . B . Barnes , C r . 1699 .
A. They refused cots.
Q. No further cots were given out after the first
indicated were destroyed?
A. They were offered cots and mattresses each day
Q. JDo you happen to know, Chief Barnes, when this
grounds facility was constructed, when the fair grounds
were built?
few you
and night,
fair
buildings
A. I'm sorry, I can’t answer that question.
Q. Bo you know when it was converted over for use to hold, as
temporary prison facility?
A . No, I don’t.
Q. You do know that it was converted in some way to be
used as a prison?
A . Yes .
Q. But you don’t know when this took place?
A . No.
Q« Now, what are these fair buildings used for normally?
A. Exhibition buildings I understand, display buildings.
Q. Display what?
A. I have seen things displayed there during the fair,
during a normal fair.
Q, Are the building constructed for the display of live
stock and other farm animals?
A . No .
Q, What type of materials are displayed there?
A-. ITm sorry, I can’t answer that question, just name one
particular thing.
Q. To your knowledge they are not used for displaying live
stock?
A. No .
Q. To your knowledge have the facilities ever been used to
house persons, or prisoners prior to the time you took over to
house the civil rights demonstrators?
A. I cannot answer that question, I do not know.
Q. To your knowledge has it been used subsequent to that
time to house persons or prisoners, subsequent to the period when
you were in charge last summer? Has it been used to house persons
or prisoners?
A. I’m sorry I can’t answer that one, I do not know.
Q. You don’t know whether it has been so used?
A. I’m sorry, I don’t know.
Q. Were there a point at which you were relieved from this
duty that you have been discussing here?
A. Will you repeat that?
Q. Were you relieved of your duty of, — in charge of this
temporary fair ground facility?
A . Yes .
Q. When was that?
A. When they closed it down.
S. B 0 Barnes, C r . 1700.
Q. When was that?
A. I can’t tell you the exact date, but when the persons
were all released on bond or transferred to the city jail.
Q. Was that some time last summer?
A . Y e s .
Q. During the time that it was
of it, were any other persons who wer
crime brought to the facility, other
involved in civil rights demonstratio
A. No other particular charges,
MR. BELL:
No further questions.
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, we
Charles Evers as an adverse witness.
THE COURT :
Are you going to have very much examination of him?
MR. WATKINS:
No sir .
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. CHARLES EVERS
called as an adverse witness for the Defendants, after having been
duly sworn, testified as follows:
EXAMINATION
S* B. Barnes, Cr. 1701.
open and you were in charge
e arrested and charged with
than persons who were
ns?
no .
would like to call Plaintiff
MR. WATKINS:
1702 .
Q. I believe you are the Field Secretary in Mississippi
for the NAACP?
A. That is correct.
Q. You have previously testified in this case?
A . Right .
Q. Since the time that you testified earlier in this case,
you have made one or more public speeches in which you have dis
cussed this case or the matters involved in this case, have you
not ?
A. Not that I can recall,
Q. Bid you not, on Saturday night, February 14, 1964, make
a speech in Nashville, Tennessee?
A. Right, I did.
Q. Bid you not in that speech make the statement, "Folk
we have made up our minds that if a white man shoots at a Negro
in Mississippi, we will shoot back."?
A . I did not .
Q. Bid you make the statement during that speech, “If they
bomb a Negro church and kill our children, we are going to bomb
a white church and kill sdmerof their children."?
A. May I state what I did say?
Q. First, tell me did you make that statement?
A. The statement was made, but not in the sense in which
you are reading it off there. The statement was made, but not
sence, thatTs why I would like to explain it.
C. Evers,
in that
1703 .
Q. Bid you make it?
A. A statement was made of that sort.
Q. By you?
A. By me.
Q. And what you then say that is different, — how did it
differ from —
A. Now, here is what I said, I said, — the first thing I
said, ,lThere are many good whites in Mississippi who believe in
democracy and there are many Negroes who believe in democracy,
but there are extreme groups in both groups, both races, and the
extreme groups of each race do not understand non-violence and
non-violence won’t work where they are concerned. The extreme
whites who believe in bombing churches and shooting at the home
and killing children do not understand anything, but if they
shoot into your home, you shoot back; if they bomb your church,
you bomb theirs." I said, "We have groups of our race who would
do just that because they are vowed that they will not be misused
and abused any more, but I hope the day will never come when
Negroes and whites in Mississippi will have to go to arms to
settle their differences." That wasn’t printed.
Q. Bid you state during that speech that "If a Negro got
on 'his knees and asked fob justice in Mississippi he would have
his brains kicked out ."?
A. I didn’t say that. I said, if a Negro, speaking of the
extreme groups, if a Negro were down praying for justice or
C. Evers,
democracy, these same people would stomp his brains out or kick
his brains out because they don’t understand non-violence nor
do they understand religion or Christianity,
Q. Did you tell that meeting that non-violence would not
work in Mississippi and that you no longer advocated non-violence?
A. I said it won’t work with extreme groups of both races.
Q. Did you advocate the use of non-violence to achieve your
goals in Mississippi?
A. I have never advocated it. I don’t believe in non
violence — in violence. I am strictly a non-violent, I think
that has been proven and I never have advocated it, and I never
will advocate it and I pray the day will come when it won’t be
used against us.
Q. Did you make the statement, ”We are going to bomb a
white church and kill some of. their children.”?
A. No .
Q. You did not?
A. No .
Q. You have seen that statement attributed to you in the
public press?
A. I have seen in. I called back to the persons who mis
quoted me and informed them that it ws s not true • It was a mis
quote. I did say it, but not in the way in which they had it
printed. I didn’t say we was going to. I was saying that
extreme groups of both races and I still say there are extreme
C. Evers, 1704.
1705 .C. Evers,
groups of each race that will resort to nothing but violence
but we hope the day will never come when neither Negroes nor
white will have to shoot it out to get democracy in Mississippi.
Q. Did you make the statement in that speech, "The Negroes
in Mississippi have served notice that there won’t be any more
Medlgar Evers killings in the state without reprisals."?
A. No. I said, "We have served notice that we hope there
won’t be any more Medgar Evers in Mississippi." If it should be,
we certainly hope that there will be justice done and if it is
not done, Negroes are not going to sit idle by any more and let
people come into their home and drag them out and beat them up
like dogs." I did say that.
Q. What were you advocating there, that if a Negro were
killed in Mississippi and if you didn’t consider that justice was
done, then you would select a white man and kill him?
A. No, no, no, I didn’t. I have advocated Article 3, Sec
tion 12, of the Mississippi Constitution, that a citizen has a
right to protect his home and his property, even unto arms, that
is if they come into our homes, that is all I was advocating.
Q. When you were making those statements in that speech,
did you on more than one occasion turn to the reporters present
and tell them, "Write that down, this is no secret."?
A. Print the truth, yes, I said that, print the truth and
they did just vice versa.
Q. Now, you have since seen the Nashville Banner which
1706 .
carried the headlines and the purported quotes from your speech
in Nashville, haven’t you?
A. I haven’t seen that.
Q. Well, I’ll ask you to look at it. Have you read that
article?
A . No , I haven’t .
Q. Please read it, it(s not long.
A. It’s the same one that was in the Jackson Daily News,
I read that, -- it seems that it is the same one that was in the
Jackson Daily News and the Clarion Ledger, I read it.
Q. Are any of the quotes in that article attributed to you
true?
A. Yes, I have the greatest respect for Martin Luther King,
but I said, but the extreme groups of Mississippi will not under
stand —
Q. Read it verbatim.
A. Oh, read it here as I said, ”1 have the greatest respect
for Mr. Martin Luther King, but non-violence won’t work in
Mississippi. You get on your knees down there praying for —
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to the reading of this. It is not
in evidence and it is being read in evidence and it hasnTt been
offered.
MR. NICHOLS:
Your Honor, I am questioning him about a statement he
C. Evers,
1707 .
has made, in Nashville, about this matter in Mississippi and he
has just said this statement is correct and I want to —
THE WITNESS:
I said part of it.
MRS. MORRIS:
No he didn’t, he said part of it. Not all of that —
THE WITNESS:
Just a part of it.
THE COURT:
Well, let him examine him about it. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS:
A. Just the part where I said I have the greatest respect
for Reverend Martin Luther King.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. You didnTt say any of the rest of that sentence?
A. Not in the way in which it is printed, no.
Q. Then you disavow now every quote contained in that
article attributed to you, is that correct?
A. As advocating violence, yes.
Q. Have you ever advised the Nashville Banner or anybody
connected with that paper, in writing, that the quotes that they
attributed to you in that article were not true and did not
represent what you either said or stood for?
A. I advised the UPI, I didn’t know who sent this, I just
advised UPI, — I saw it in the Jackson Clarion Ledger, — UPI
C . Evers,
1708 .
and Mr. M c k Sanders down at WLBT news, I did.
MR. NICHOLS:
May it please the Court, I would like to offer in evi
dence the story as it appears in the Nashville Banner which pur
ports to quote this witness, with his testimony with respect to
whether it is or is not a correct quote.
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, we object to the admission on a number of
grounds. In the first place, the witness has disavowed most of
that which appears there. Secondly, whatever is in a newspaper
is hearsay; what a reporter said that he said and the witness is
here himself to say what, in fact, he did say and he has clarified
that for the record. The other statements which counsel was try
ing to determine whether or not they were stated were read and
--- during the questioning of the witness.
THE COURT:
Yes, IT11 sustain the objection to it as evidence and
let it be marked for identification as part of your questions to
him.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the the exhibit D-58<for identi
fication.)
MR. NICHOLS:
That’s all the questions I have from this witness.
MR. BELL:
No questions, Your Honor.
C . Evers,
THE COURT:
1709 .
All right. We will take a recess until 9:00 o’clock in
the morning.
MR. WATKINS:
Judge, we are just about ready to rest.
THE COURT :
Oh, you are?
MR. WATKINS:
Yes sir. I wanted to ask the Court’s permission to do
one thing before I rest. Early in this case we had marked for
identification Exhibits B-ll, 12, 13, and 14, which constituted
the transcript of the testimony taken in the Chancery Court case.
At the time we offered them there was, as I recall it, strenuous
objections on the part of opposing counsel. In this case we have
/developed, in my opinion, a substantial part of the same evidence
that appears in this record. I see no longer any need for it
and I would like permission to withdraw those exhibits which had
been previously marked for identification only.
THE COURT:
What number is that?
MR. WATKINS:
D—11, 12, 13, and 14.
THE COURT:
11, 12, 13, and 14?
MR. WATKINS:
That’s right
1710 .
THE COURT :
All right, Defendants Exhibits 11, 12, 13, and 14 for
identification may be withdrawn from the record in this case.
MR. WATKINS:
The Defense rests, Your Honor.
MR. BELL:
Your Honor, we have at least one rebuttal witness and
possibly another one if we can get hold of them and also a few
motions and we want it clarified, you recall, that Mayor Thompson
had been asked to go over his exhibit, the exhibit of the news
paper articles attributing various statements to him and indicate
which of those icre true and which were not so we still did have
a few other matters.
THE COURT:
All right, you want the Mayor back on the stand?
MR. BELL:
I don’t know that that will be necessary if he were
able to identify or, — one way or another, indicate what the
situation was as to those alone. Perhaps that would be the
easiest way.
THE COURT:
You all just work that out among yourselves. We will
take a recess until 9:00 o’clock in the morning.
A. Thompson, R e d i r * 1711.
(Friday morning, February 28, 1964, 9:00 A.M., Court was opened
and the proceedings continued as follows:)
MRS. MORRISS
Your Honor, we would like to recall Mayor Thompson.
When he testified before he was given some clippings represent
ing statements he had made and I believe he was instructed by
the Court that he take the clippings and study them and testify
as to whether or not they were statements made by him. I would
like to clear that up at this time, and hand him the exhibit,
which has been marked P-27 for identification, and ask him about
them.
MAYOR ALLEN THOMPSON
having been previously sworn, took the stand and testified as
follows :
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Now, Mayor Thompson, these statements you have been
instructed by the Court to compare them with your original
statements and see if ~
THE COURT:
I didn’t instruct him to do anything. Let’s get this
clear for the record. I permitted him to do that.
MRS. MORRIS:
All right, Your Honor.
Q. N©w, Mayor Thompson, have you compared these statements
A. Thompson, Redir 1712.
to determine if they were correctly quoted?
A. Well, I have not in each instance, although I can go
over them. As far as possible, I have looked at them to deter
mine what was said, but they go back over a period of time.
Q. Now, as to the third page on Exhibit 27, would you read
that and tell us if that represents what you said?
A. The quotes are more or less accurate, but all of these
statements were made over a period of time. Some are quotes and
some are just comments taken out of contextj in fact, each one
of these were taken out of context, and I would say every dis
cussion that I entered into was prefaced with the statement
that I was against unlawful activities, unlawful demonstrations,
unlawful picketing, unlawful marches, unlawful activities, and
each one of these statements was taken in connection with that
and are in conjunction with that. That was the way invariably
I started off every discussion that I made.
Q. This one that we are looking at, on page 3 of Exhibit
_27, did you make these remarks that were quotes here?
A. That has to do with the Governor and the rights of the
people .
MR. WATKINS:
I want to object to this, Your Honor, I cannot see how
this line of questioning has anything to do with the issues in
t hi s lawsuit.
THE COURT:
A» Thompson, R e d i r . 1713.
It was my understanding that these were allowed to go
in for the purpose of identification. You can examine him
about it just as counsel was allowed to examine the witness
yesterday about newspaper clippings. These are reporters that
have written these articles, and we are not trying the reporters.
Go ahead and ask your question.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Now, on page 4 of Exhibit 27, were you quoted correctly
in saying you were satisfied that the federal occupation of the
City of Oxford was illegal?
A. ”The federal occupation of Oxford was illegal, and the
City of Jackson would challenge through the courts any similar
action here That was my belief.
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, that hasn*t got a thing in the
world to do with this lawsuit.
THE COURT: 1
I sustain the objection to that.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Does it accurately reflect what you said on that
o cca sio n?
MR. WATKINS:
May it. please the Court, we have objected to that and
you have sustained the objection.
THE COURT :
A. Thompson, R e d i r . 1714.
I have sustained the objection to that.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. What about page 5, the same question?
A. It refers to the public officials handling the situation
in Jackson. That is, as I stated, taken out of context in which
I was saying that these things should be handled by the officials,
any law violations, demonstrations, were matters for the police,
and not for any individuals.
Q. Page 5 of Exhibit 27 has 1, 2, 3 quotes in that article,
do those represent accurate quotes or not?
A. They would have to be taken in conjunction with what
had been said, outside agitators, who come in with threats,
demonstrations were matters for the public officials. "You
didntt see our local Negro parents involved, it was the NAAGP,
agitators, those who do it for political reasons, those that make
money"- that would have been in conjunction with many things in
line with it.
Q. Now, would you examine the next page, Mayor Thompson,
I want to know if the quote accurately represents what you said
on that occasion?
A. ,lCarl Rachlin of New York, counsel for the priests,” —
THE COURT :
Read it to yourself, Mayor.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Is that an accurate quotation of what you said?
A. Thompson, R e d i r . 1715.
A. That is as accurate as possible taken out of context,
and with the same explanation as before that every single thing
in here was mentioned as a result of unlawful demonstrations,
unlawful activities, and unlawful threats by outside agitators.
Q. Now, on page 7 of Exhibit 27, does that accurately
reflect your views?
A. The same answer to this as in the others except this
differs and the others differ, but in the main we were not going
to agree to a bi-racial committee under threats of mass marches,
picketing and boycotting —
Q. Then this does accurately reflect your views?
A. It bears out that that was the reason, because of the
unlawful threats, demonstrations, and all of this is like the
other questions, I do not know whether it is accurate or not,
whether I said this particular thing, but this "under threat of
mass marches" is correct.
Q. Have you ever gotten in touch with the newspaper and
ask that these be retracted?
A. I do not ever make a practice of asking the newspapers
to change any statement. In the first place, people forget it
by the next day until it is brought into a Court like this. Then
it calls attention to something that is a mistake on both parts.
My idea is that it does not help to call attention to something
that is not exactly right when people will forget it the next
day anyway.
Q. Page 8 of Exhibit 27, does that accurately reflect your
views?
A. I don’t remember saying all these things.
Q. Bo you recall saying any of them?
A. Anything I said is taken out of context.
Q. Do you remember saying any of them, Mayor Thompson?
A. No, I don’t remember saying them as it is down here.
Q. Then your views are not consistent with Page 8?
A. Not completely.
MR. WATKINS:
Now, Your Honor, I am going to object to her asking if
that reflected his views, asking if he said something is one
thing, - the newspaper article put in front of him could not
possibly be representative -
THE COURT:
I understand counsel, I think you are more concerned
with the quotation rather than whether his views or feelings
are expressed, and I will sustain the ob j ect io n in qpart , but
I will allow you to ask him about whether or not it is an
accurate reflection of what he said.
THE WITNESS:
”He called on city employees and all other Jacksonians
to go about their normal business, keep going to shopping cen
ters, because people who break the law are going to be picked
up and go to Jail.” That expresses my views.
A. Thompson, Redir. 1716.
”We are not going
A. Thompson* R e d i r . 1717.
to threaten anybody in the world.” That expresses my views.
"How in the world can Negroes win any kind of fight like this;
they can demonstrate, they can march, they can riot, or they can
throw rocks and assemble like they did this morning, but what
are they going to gain?” That expresses my views.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. What about the comments about Tougaloo College?
THE COURT:
About what?
MRS. MORRIS:
Tougaloo College.
A. "When the Kennedys leave office, the NAACP has collected
all the money it can milk oit of the people, who are the fine
Negro people going to be looking to, - the people they have been
working with side by side all their lives."
THE COURT :
But I want to point out that in my view, the Mayor does
not write the ordinances for the City. In fact, he is just a
Mayor and there are three people elected to write the City laws,
and comments attributed to him in a newspaper would not be the
policy of the City, when it is not up to him alone to decide that.
MR. BELL:
May I just say a few remarks on that, Your Honor. The
cases decided by the Supreme Court, such as the one from South
Carolina, I believe the Patterson case, involving a trespass on
on a segregation ordinance, the Court held when such an ordinance
exists the persons could not be convicted for trespassing, for
sitting in privately owned restaurants, and it was said that the
ordinance was the overriding policy notwithstanding what the
individuals view might be - and in the Lombard case from
Louisiana --
THE COURT:
That is what I was addressing myself to.
MR. BELL:
There was no ordinance, but they pointed to an example
made by the Mayor of what his position would be as far as not
permitting any such demonstrations. They said here the policy
of the City is shown through the statements of the Mayor, and
as here in this situation, we are trying to show the policy of
the municipality has the same effect as an ordinance, if those
practices are followed according to the public statements by
the Mayor.
THE COURT:
I don’t think it is given to the Mayor of Jackson to
establish the public policy of the City of Jackson. I think
that is the duty of the three of them.
MR. WATKINS:
Excuse me, Your Honor. In the Lombard case there were
repeated definite public statements by a Mayor purporting to
A. Thompson, Redir. 171 ",
speak for the official city of New Orleans, and in no instance
A. Thompson, Redir . 1719.
that Mayor Thompson has been questioned about did he attempt to
say that the policy of the City of Jackson was one thing or
another .
THE COURT:
If one person were going to make the rules for a munici
pality there would be no need to go to the expense of electing
City Commissioners to serve with the Mayor to make these deci
sions .
MR. BELL:
I just wanted to try to explain a little bit about what
we had in mind.
THE COURT:
I knew what you had in mind.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Now, Mayor Thompson, on page 8 of Exhibit 27?
A. Now, this is taken out of context, and the only policy
as mentioned to them by the Mayor and Commissioners was that
unlawful acts of any kind would be prohibited. That has to be
tied into it, it is taken out of context - and any statements
made as my personal opinion could be some times right or wrong.
Q. What about the statement concerning Tougaloo College?
A. "Tougaloo College is the cancer of this whole thing."
Q. It is not necessary to read it unless you prefer to.
A. "They get folks to come in and try to take over."
Those are not my exact words or complete words.
A, Thompson, R e d i r . 1720.
Q. Did you say something similar to this?
A. It was taken out of context, I have said many times that
Tougaloo College was the center of the whole agitation, and was
bringing in all these outside agitators to go into the churches,
to go out and threaten people, to start unlawful demonstrations,
and other unlawful activities and that they are encouraged at
that particular place.
Q. Now, on page 9 of Exhibit 27, does that accurately
reflect what you said?
A. The same answer in connection with this.
THE COURT:
Is that a copy of a newspaper article?
THE WITNESS:
From the Clarion Ledger, and it just goes on along the
same line, "any person who breaks the law is going to be picked
up and taken to jail"; it is all telling the citizens that the
City Administration intends to uphold the law, and to prevent
unlawful operations of any kind, unlawful agitators, unlawful
demonstrations, and threats. In other words, it is just the
duty of the Mayor and Commissioners of a city.
THE COURT:
Do you establish and make the public policies of the
City of Jackson?
THE WITNESS:
There is not any way for me as Mayor to do that, Your
A. Thompson, R e d i r . 1721.
Honor .
THE COURT:
Q. Bo you attempt, yourself, to make public policies?
A. It wouldnTt be possible even if I tried.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Are these your quotes as expressed on page 9, Mayor
Thompson?
A. All this is the same as with the others, it is taken
out of context.
Q. Is there anything that appears on page 9 in quotations
that you havenft said?
A. Everything I am quoted as saying, it would be impossible
for me to remember everything I have said, - but what I am saying
it all has been stated in conjunction with the civil disturbances,
demonstrations, andother activities initiated for the purpose of
creating strife.
Q. Now, my question was -
A. Just a minute, I am reading here, and these things
would have to be taken in conjunction with that, and not out of
cont ext.
Q. My question was simply, was there anything here in
quotes that you didn*t say, to the best of your knowledge?
A. To the best of my knowledge, what I said was explaining
that unlawful disturbances - I would have to go over each one
of these and answer yes or no
A. Thompson, Redir 1722 .
Q. Would you do that for me?
A. The first one "Jackson is facing a great opportunity as
well as a strong challenge. As your Mayor and Commissioners we
are responsible for maintaining law and order as well as looking
after the civil affairs and interest of all citizens, this we
will do, but we need the cooperation of every loyal white and
colored citizen. The civil disobedience demonstrations of the
past two days were planned for the purpose of creating strife,"
- that is my belief, - "arousing passions, and disrupting busi
ness." - This is my belief.
THE COURT:
What time are you talking about?
THE WITNESS:
That was back in May after all the trouble - itTs
dated May 31st, 1963. "It is the hope of the racial agitators
that hoodlums, ruffians and juvenile delinquents, as well as
thoughtless individuals of both races, will take matters in
their own hands and cause violence." That is my belief.
THE COURT:
I didnTt get that.
THE WITNESS:
"It is the hope of the racial agitators that hoodlums,
ruffians and juvenile delinquents, as well as thoughtless indi
viduals of both races, will take matters in their own hands and
cause violence." That is my belief. They put 600 juveniles in
A. Thompson, Redir. 1723 .
front of these other people, and they were arrested and taken
down to jail and released to their parents. "This will support
their plea that federal troops and marshals be used." That is
my belief .
"We can handle any organized demonstrations with our
law enforcement officers who are trained to deal with such
matters. Our great opportunity is to be the first city in the
nation to handle this organized racial disturbance with dignity,
calmness, and without violence. Your part as loyal citizens
both white and colored is to ignore the demonstrators, go about
your usual business, do not avoid Capitol Street and its mer
chants. Do not stop and congregate around any demonstrators,
either in private places of business or in public places.
"If you will cooperate with us in this way, we can
handle this crisis, in a manner that will leave the best possible
spirit or mutual trust and good-will between responsible citizens
and races .
"These racial agitators will pass and we need to handle
them in such manner as to improve the mutual spirit of coopera
tion so that our city can continue its progress for the best
interest of all citizens." That is my belief.
"If we need more space, ITm sure the Governor and the
Legislature will allow us to use the state penitentiary." That
is my belief .
"Two hundred cots, mattresses and blankets are available
A. Thompson, Redir. 1724.
and we can have thousands more at a minute’s notice.” The cots
and mattresses were made available and the people tore up the
cots and mattresses hitting them on the side of the wall.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. You say you know this?
A. That is what happened.
Q. It was reported to you?
Q. Oh, yes. "Any person who breaks the law is going to be
picked up and taken to jail." That is my hope. Everything after
that is taken out of context. "There will be no violence in
Jackson and people will be protected from violence." It says
something about a collision course here, that is generally what
I believe, - what has been going on and being threatened by the
agitators all over the country, that outsiders are going to
come in and take over ~ this is a collision course unless this
can be handled in a lawful manner. These people who want every
thing for nothing and think it can be gotten by making demands
and having demonstrations instead of earning it, things are not
accomplished by those means.
They can demonstrate, march, picket and riot from now
on, but they cannot win like this, it won’t get them more money,
more schools or better jobs. The only way to get these things
is by going along with us, "and going along in a community where
law and order is maintained. " There is opportunity here in
Jackson, plenty of jobs, and we will help people get jobs if they
Mayor Thompson, Redir. 1725.
need jobs, we don*t have any slum districts, there is good
housing and good facilities. That is what I meant by that,
and the way it is is not exactly as I stated it.
"When Kennedy is out of office, and the NAACP has milk
ed innocent Negroes of their money and moved on, local Negroes
are going to have to look to the white people who have helped
them all the time." All I meant by that, local colored
people and local white people will have to continue to get
along and live side by side as they have for a hundred years.
"He urged the white community not to let the action of
a few radicals create hard feelings against all local Negroes."
We have tried very hard to keep the people, the good white
people and the good colored people, from being antagonized
toward the colored people because of these activities by
agitators who come in, possibly a thousand in this whole
country who are causing this trouble, and making it hard on
not just white people but good colored people. They come
in and frighten them, won’t even let them put up trees at
Christmas, and I have urged the people not to feel upset
toward the good colored people because of what these agitators
have done.
"Local parks, playgrounds and libraries have been de
segregated by court order. If radicals try to take them
over, they will all be closed. Nearly all the money to build
Mayor Thompson, R e d i r . 1726.
these facilities has come from white people. If they see
that they are not going to be able to use them in peace, they
won’t keep paying for their operation.” That is plain, com
mon sense, as I see it. If these big crowds start wanting
to go down and take it over, it is going to make a problem
for everybody. Of course, all these things can be worked
out, but the point I was making, these agitators, who are
not really interested in the Negro being educated, and who
are not really interested in getting schools for the Negroes
or getting jobs for thejn, they are only interested in causing
trouble to force their demands.
"Public swimming pools won’t be open just yet because
of minor water troubles ." We had S'ome trouble with water
in the pools last., year •
"City officials have the support of a tremendous numb
of local negroes who wa nt pea ce and quiet . They don’t wa nt
Jackson to develop into the same mess as other citi es who
are not safe to live in peace ." That’s right. We have
the best opportunity ;of any place in the country. Now,
the se don’t express my whole views, they are taken out of
cont ext .
"Tougaloo College and Campbell College are the cancer
of this racial mess.” I don’t know how cancer applied to
that. “This mess will pass and we will be just like we were
Mayor Thompson, Redir. 1727.
before it started — unless we give in to the demands and
threats of these radicals." That means unlawful demonstra
tions, unlawful threats.
"Thompson urged parents to keep track of their children
during the current tensions. 1 Enow where they are$ he said,
’and make sure they are at home at the proper times1. That
is what I said. "Teenagers were responsible for much of the
racial violence1.* That’ 3 right .
(There was an interruption here when the Court told
some waiting attorneys that he would not be able
to take up motions until the trial of this case
was over)
THE COURT:
All right, go ahead.
THE WITNESS:
"Teenagers were responsible for much of the racial
violence which erupted Tuesday over a sit-in demonstration
at the lunch counter at Woolworth’s on E. Capitol. Fast
moving Jackson police smothered three downtown demonstration
attempts and routed a group of rock-throwing Negro students
at Lanier High School. A Shrine parade scheduled for noon
Thursday was cancelled by police officials as a preventive
measure. Fourteen demonstrators, including four ministers,
and whites and Negroes, were arrested in the late afternoon
Mayor Thompson, Redir 1728
as they attempted to hold a prayer meeting on the Capitol
Street steps of the Post Office.
"Three leading agitators were jailed in the incident,
including the Rev. R. E. King, white chaplain at Tougaloo
Christian College, who was hauled to a police paddy wagon by
Negro trusties as he dropped to his knees following his
arrest.
"Some 500 students at Negro Lanier High School left
their classes to participate in a demonstration which police
officials say was apparently staged for the benefit of re
porters and photographers. They booed and threw rocks at
police officers, chanting *We want freedom. We want freedom.
This is part of what I said during that time. As I have men
tioned, statements that I have made were made in conjunction
with these unlawful efforts by these agitators to tear up a
peaceful city and the efforts of the law enforcement officers
to keep them from their unlawful activities.
THE COURT:
This is still May 3lst?
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Now, we move on to page 10, dated October 31, 1963.
I direct your attention, Mayor Thompson, to the words under
lined, and ask you to tell us if you were correctly quoted,
and whether that reflects accurately your statements.
Mayor Thompson, Redir 1729 .
"He told Chancery Judge Stokes Robertson he could have
cut off demonstrations during the three months of tension by
appointing an NAACP-sponsored bi-racial committee, but warned
Tthat was just the beginning. It would have led to taking
over operation of the city by the NAACP.T,t That is correct.
The NAACP insisted that the Commissioners and I appoint a
bi-racial committee, and they would have taken over the whole
city, this would only have been the first of their demands.
I told him that within a very short while demands would be
made in other areas.
THE COURT:
Who is him?
THE WITNESS:
I am talking to Judge Robertson in court, the
injunction hearing before Judge Robertson.
MR. WATKINS:
We object to taking the newspaper report as evi
dence of what Mayor Thompson said in that court hearing.
The transcript would be the best evidence. I think there
is an inconsistency there.
MRS. MORRIS:
I will offer the transcript of the Mayorts testi
mony if you will go along with us. I am perfectly willing
for the testimony of the Mayor to go in.
Mayor Thompson, Redir . 1730 .
MR. WATKINS:
I think the transcript in its entirety should go
in if any part of it goes in.
MRS. MORRIS:
The Mayor’s testimony.
MR. WATKINS:
I am not bargaining with you, counsel, I am addres
sing my remarks to the Court. We object to quoting from a
newspaper article what the Mayor said at that hearing.
THE COURT:
I will take that up at the proper time. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS:
"Thompson said he considered a bi-racial committee
’against the law because they would appoint somebody to run
my city’J - That my city meant
cials - but I do believe this,
tee that I have ever seen, the
and assumes all the authority,
antagonize the people. Let’s
"It is going to pop
a conqueror, and that’s what
is referring to these unlawful
ities. That’s right.
"-charged that seven
that there were elected offi-
that in any bi—racial commit-
radical element takes over
and that would only help to
lee further on this.
iut again. You can’t satisfy
they would have been." That
agitators and unlawful activ-
proposals demanded by the
NAACP made difficult improvements he claimed he had already
Mayor Thompson, R e d i r . 1731.
planned."
THE COURT:
I would rather you didn*t lean back against the
wall.
MRS. MORRIS:
I am sorry.
THE WITNESS:
In other words, when these demonstrations and ac
tivities were put on by these agitators, it made it impos
sible to take care of these facilities and all for the
colored people that we had been doing, but we went ahead
in spite of these things, and did all this.
"You would have marvelled at the calmness and res
traint the police showed when they had bricks and bottles
thrown at them, and were called everything in the world",
I told a New York NAACP attorney that.
"Thompson testified he has no control over church
segregation in Jackson. Whatever the churches decide as
to whom they should keep out, that is entirely up to them.*
Police will not intervene unless violence erupts.
"He denied that the 1954 school integration deci
sion is binding in Jackson." I won’t go into that, but the
record will show what I had to say, but whatever I said is
just an opinion and the Court would hold what is right on
Mayor Thompson, Redir . 1732 .
that. That is not a part of this lawsuit.
•‘It was decided one way in the 1800* s and after
years of litigation it was decided another way. As far as
I am concerned it has not been decided in Jackson.** That
was all general, in the school case.
•‘Thompson charged Wednesday that anti-segregation
demonstrations last summer were designed to ‘intimidate
Jackson whether it was lawful or not*.** That*s right.
“He called together city officials in mid-May to
prepare for this expected invasion of outside agitators
coupled with local agitators’after receiving letters from
the NAACP demanding an end to segregation practices in Jack-
son." It was not just segregation demands alone, it was
other unlawful and ridiculous demands.
“He said he considered the letters and following
telegrams threats.
“An uneasy peace and quiet reigned during a flurry
of communication, which he construed as a threat to do any
thing they wanted to.** In conjunction with this, these
agitators came to me, they said if they got so and so, all
right, otherwise, we will demonstrate. They didn’t get what
they asked because it was illegal and not in line what what
we believe to be within the law and in the best interest
of white and colored people. They thought they could do us
as they have done in other cities, to have demonstrations
and scare the public into doing things illegal.
"Integration groups, Thompson testified, told city
officials ’if we didn’t do what they said, there would be
enough violence to make us do it.” ’ That’s right.
"He said he feared the group’s threats of direct
action would tear up a city." That’s right.
MRS. MORRIS
Q. All right, Mayor Thompson, this is the final one,
page 11 of Exhibit 27, would you do the same thing with that
one?
A. This is December 6th, in the Times Picayune„ ~
"was hiring extra personnel as a deterrent to future racial
problems." That’s right.
". . . told city department heads the city was
increasing an effort to protect Jackson business firms and
customers from threats or intimidations by ’agitator groups.’
That’s correct .
"The mayor said a Negro church was threatened
because it bought an organ from a white merchant." That’s
right.
"We will hire everybody we have to insure that you
can buy anywhere you want to in the city without fear of
threat or intimidation." "We are going to prosecute anybody
we hear trying to prevent people from buying where they want
Mayor Thompson, R e d i r . 17
to." That is correct and we made every effort, but these
Mayor Thompson, Redir. 1734-
colored agitators had the colored people of Jackson so afraid
around Christmas it was very difficult, although we offered
protection to anybody who was unlawfully threatened or intimi
dated. The colored people, so-called, self-styled colored
leaders even became afraid and tried to stop some of this
threatening of their own colored people but it had gone too
far for them to do any good..
"Thompson said Jackson ?would. fill the jail with
persons responsible for such acts or threats if they are
reported to us.111 That is in context with all of the other
that we will put every person who has violated, a law, white or
colored, that we can apprehend in jail.
"He said it would not be necessary for informants
to identify themselves for assistance." They were so afraid
that they wouldn*t even notify the Police ^Department what these
colored agitators were openly and brazenly doing.
"We have 350 people in the Jackson Police .Depart
ment with 275 of them being officers, . ." that means handling
-- ". . and we are hiring extra personnel to see that no one
is subject to threats in this city." Unlawful threats and
intimidation in line with this, applies to white and to
colored ,
"The mayor labeled the National Association for the
Advancement of Colored People the *NACP which covers all agi
tator groups to me. They are what all intimidators represent
Mayor Thompson, Redir . 1735 .
to me.'" That’s right.
Q. Now, Mayor, I take it that you consider all, —
A. Now, the first pages, I didn’t go over as I did these
but any statements that I made about the first would be that
they were exactly as I mentioned only in conjunction with unlaw
ful demonstrations or unlawful activities, or threats or intimi
dations .
Q. Now, Mayor, I take it that you consider selective
buying campaigns or boycotts to be illegal.
A. I think where it is coupled with threats, where they
threaten people, the threatening part is unlawful. In other
words, the selective buying put on by these agitator groups
where they get out these pamphlets ’don’t buy at certain stores,’
then they go in and grab the merchandise out of the hands of the
people, that’s unlawful. Where they threaten to hurt them,
that’s unlawful. Where they go into a local store and the store
has to mail packages to them, that’s unlawful. Where they try
to prohibit by forceful, unlawful threats, anybody having the
right to follow any peaceful, lawful wish, I consider that unlaw
ful.
Q. Then I take it that if you remove the threats, you
have no objection to selective buying or to boycott?
A. I don’t know. If you’ll give me a specific instance,
I can tell you what I think about, — you are talking about a
general, - I’d prefer that you give me a hypothetical case, then
I can tell you yes or no about an exact case, but you can’t
cover anything generally.
MR. WATKINS:
If it please the Court, I want to stop this line of
questioning on the ground that it calls upon the witness for a
legal opinion. All of this matter is settled by law and he
couldn’t change it by answering it one way or the other.
THE COURTS
Well, she’s on cross examination. I’ll let him proceed.
He’s a lawyer.
Mayor Thompson, Redir. 1736.
MR. WATKINS:
On legal questions, Your Honor?
THE COURT:
Well, I don’t think that
as an expert witness, and I don’t
called, is entitled to express an
rule your objection.
a witness, unless he is called
understand that he is so
opinion, but I’ll still over-
MR. WATKINS:
For the sake of the record, let me add to my objection
the fact that counsel is not distinguishing between individual
action in the form of boycott and whether it’s one or more
people agreed to act together in connection with a boycott, which
I submit makes a.material difference.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Mayor Thompson, didn’t you advocate that.- people, I
Mayor Thompson, 1737 .
think you called it a selective viewing campaign, or boycott
viewing the Bonanza program after the personnel declined to
appear at a segregated performance here in Jackson?
MR. WATKINS:
We object to that. It is not material to any issue
involved in this case.'
THE COURT:
Overruled. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS:
A. My statement in relation to that was to the effect
that when these Bonanzas were threatened away by a very few
self-styled colored leaders who told them that they had better
not come to Jackson, that they refused to come, my statement was
in indignation that anybody would succumb to that sort of threat
and deal with the NACP, or SNCC, or any of those elements
instead of to the persons who contracted with them. I brought
it up in a complete statement and said that as far as I’m con
cerned, not as the Mayor of Jackson, that I was not going to
look at the Bonanzas any more because I thought that they had
insulted the City of Jackson, the people of the state, by break
ing a contract, and I was going to practice selective viewing.
Further in that statement, I said there were no threats, there
were no intimidations, there was no conspiracy, that it was my
personal belief that anybody who thought like the Bonanzas ought
not to come into my house. It was left up entirely to what
Mayor Thompson, 1738 .
other people did. I didn’t go out and threaten anybo dy in the
city, that if they watched them, I would take act ion against
them, a s these NACP foIks do . This wa s my own per s o na 1 belief
in telling them how I felt about it e
Q. Mayor Thompson, is this your stat ement ?
A. This is one of them •
Q. You ma d e that one?
A, This is the second one, yes. This has to do after A1
Hirt was scared away. He was afraid that he would have trouble,
that they would demonstrate, that your folks would demonstrate,
and so he said that he had better not stay around while they are
demonstrating. Then the Webb matter was mentioned in there. He
was scared away because you folks said if you come down here I
think you’ll picket or something to that effect. And then I go
into the Bonanzas.
Q. But that’s an accurate reproduction of your statement?
A . That ’ s right . .
MRS. MORRIS:
I’d like to submit this, if your Honor please.
THE COURT:
That statement may be admitted in evidence.
MR. WATKINS:
We object to it as immaterial, Your Honor, to any
issue in this case. We also object because counsel apparently
has underlined and emphasized certain sentences in the speech
Mayor Thompson, 1739 .
which I don’t believe would --
MRS. MORRIS:
The interlineations did not appear on the originals,
but I would like it admitted without the interlineations.
THE COURT:
All right, it may be admitted in evidence and be
properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit P-28.)
MRS . MORRIS:
Q. Mayor Thompson, this was reprinted and widely distri
buted, wasn’t it?
A . Yes .
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I may clear the rest of thi s up . I have
no objection to the transcript from the Stat e Court pr oceedi ng
being admitted in evidence in this proc eeding which will clear
up the Mayor’s testimony that he compared to the article in the
paper .
THE COURT:
You want to offer it in evidence?
MRS. MORRIS:
No, I think that —
THE COURT:
Well, you are putting on your rebuttal.
You want to offer it in evidence?
Mayor Thompson, 1740 .
MRS. MORRIS:
All right, Your Honor, 1*11 off er it in evidence.
THE COURT:
All right, the entire transcript may be admitted in
evidence.
MRS. MORRIS:
I have no further questions.
MR. WATKINS:
She hasn*t made her record yet, where is your tran
script ?
MRS. MORRIS:
IT11 have to — we have your copy, my copy, Your
Honor, is not in -~
MR. WATKINS:
You mean you offer my copy?
MRS. MORRIS:
No, wait a minute. I offer my copy. My copy is not
here. I will bring it into Court and have it submitted.
THE COURT:
I believe there are four volumes, is that right?
MRS, MORRIS:
Thatts right, and I have a certified copy of the
transcript.
THE COURT:
All right, those four volumes constituting the record
Mayor Thompson, 1741 .
of the trial in the Chancery Court, which was previously marked
as Defendants’ Exhibits 11, 12, 13, and 14, will now be admitted
in evidence as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit — all four volumes will be
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 29.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit P-29.)
MRS. MORRIS:
I’ll see that they are submitted to the Court.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. WATKINS:
Just a few questions please, Mayor.
Q. With reference to the Bonanza incident, where was
that performance to take place?
A. Take place at the Coliseum.
Q. Does the City of Jackson have control over who attends
or does not attend performances at the Coliseum?
A. No sir.
Q. Where was the A1 Hirt performance to take place?
A. The Coliseum.
Q. Does the City of Jackson have control over who attends
or does not attend performances there?
A . No sir .
Q. Now, the Webb speech, where was that to take place?
A. Heidelberg Hotel.
Q. Does the city of Jackson have any control over who
Mayor Thompson, 1742 .
attended or did not attend the speech of Mr. Webb?
A. We contributed, the City of Jackson contributed to the
Chamber of Commerce for this Legislative dinner, but we had no
control over who was asked to speak. When I say control, if we
had known about it we probably could have said something about
it, but we had no control —
Q. I’m not referring to the speaker now. Did you have any
control over who was in attendance at the meeting?
A. Oh, no sir, other than the Legislature, we asked the
Legi slature.
MR. WATKINS:
I believe thatls all.
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I just have two questions. The Coliseum
is owned by the State of Mississippi?
THE WITNESS:
A . Yes .
Q. And Negroes are not allowed to attend things that go
on at the Coliseum, is that right?
MR. WATKINS:
We object to that. That’s a matter of State law if
it is a matter of law. It would certainly require some State, -
authorized State official to express policy if it’s not by law.
THE COURT:
I’ll let him answer what he knows about the facts.
Mayor Thompson, 1743 .
THE WITNESS:
A. I donTt know the actual facts, what the State - what
they do in the Coliseum.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. You dontt know whether or not Negroes are allowed to
attend things at the Coliseum?
A. No, I don’t know.
Q. ThatTs your testimony?
A . That*s right .
MRS. MORRIS:
I have no further questions.
MR. BELL:
We would now like to recall Attorney Jack Young.
MR. JACK YOUNG
having been previously sworn, took the stand and testified as
follows :
MR. BELL:
Q. Your name, sir?
A. Jack H. Young.
Q. And you previous ly testified in this case?
A. Yes , I did.
Q. And at that time did you or did you not testify that
you are an attorney, a Negro attorney in Jackson, and have
defended a great number of these persons who have been arrested
as a result of participation in civil rights activities?
J . Yo ung, 1744 .
Q. Now, were you present during yesterday’s hearing at
which time Defendants offered and had admitted into evidence a
number of exhibits constituting abstracts of the action taken by
the local Courts in the prosecutions of some of these persons
arrested for civil rights demonstrations?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. You will recall, I believe, that those were Defendants’
Exhibits 20 through, roughly through 50?
A . Right.
Q. Now, as to a number of those exhibits, do you recall
that the abstracts indicated that there had been directed ver
dicts of acquittal, or the individuals were found not guilty?
A . Yes, I do .
Q. In these cases had you followed the procedure that you
testified to before, namely, of raising constitutional questions
concerning their right to protest?
A. Yes, we had.
Q. Now, in some other cases, notably Defendants’ Exhibit
25, concerning Ruth Bracey, arrested May 30, 1963 and who plead
nolo contendere and was fined $250.00, had a jail term suspended^
concerning Exhibit 28, which was the abstract of the action taken
against Mrs. Bennie Lee Catchings, wherein it showed that she had
plead nolo contendere, paid the cost and had a jail fine sus
pended; concerning Exhibit 45, the prosecution of Betty Poole,
A. Yes, I did.
J . Young, 1745 .
wherein it indicated that she had plead nolo contendere and paid
the costs and had a jail fine suspended.
Now, can you tell the Court what was the reason for,
in these cases, pleading these persons nolo contendere?
A. Well, —
MR. WATKINS:
We object to why pleas were entered. The record of
What happened is all that is admissable in evidence, I submit.
MR. BELL:
This is a little surprising, — I think that anything
that bears on cases, if it were admitted, I think we have a right
to explain the circumstances.
THE COURT:
1*11 let him explain. Overrule the objection.
THE WITNESS:
A. These cases were on appeal to County Court and a num-
ber of the defendants are, - when the cases came up for trial
on County Court, had not appeared, and by agreement with counsel
and Court, we had been permitted to enter pleas of nolo conten
dere for these people who had not appeared, - had not appeared
for various and sundry reasons. Some of the addresses had been
changed, some of them had moved out of the city. We notify all
of these people by mail when the trials are supposed to be had.
Most of them appear, some of them don*t appear; some of the
letters come back and we aren’t able to find the people. Now,
J . Young, 1746 .
what happened in these particular cases,
did not appear and for that reason pleas
were entered.
I canTt say, but they
of nolo contendere
THE COURT:
Betty Poole, you knew where she was didn’t you?
THE WITNESS:
A. She was at Tougaloo . Now, why she did not appear, I
am not able to say, but she didn’t appear in Court at the time
the case was set for trial.
THE COURT:
Q. She didn’t appear in response to your notice?
A. To our notice, that’s right.
MR. BELL:
Q. I’ll ask you to tell the Court whether or not in —
approximately, if you know, how many such nolo contendere pleas
you have had to make while defending these cases on appeal in
County Court?
A. Well, frankly, I’m not able to give an exact number,
but I would say that perhaps a third of the persons who have been
scheduled for trial have not appeared.
Q. Now, tell the Court whether or not any efforts have
been made to improve the system of notifying the defendants what
day they are to appear, what Court, so as to reduce this
A. When the defendants were arraigned, the trial dates
were set. They are set, I think, seven a week, seven or eight a
J . Young, 1747 .
week and they are returnable on the Monday of that week, set for
call on the Monday of that week, at which time all folks that are
supposed to be tried during that week are supposed to appear.
Now, they were given these trial dates when they were arraigned.
So, of course, they had that notice. About one or two weeks
prior to the trial, we send out letters from my office renotify
ing them to appear. We have found that that does not work very
effectively, so now we have adopted the system of writing letters
and in addition to that, going around personally and contacting
these people to remind them, and if need be, to transport them
to the Court .
Q. I’ll ask you whether or not some of the folk who had
not appeared had, - or had not indicated later their lack of
appearance was due to not knowing that this was the day that they
were to come into Court —
A. Well, we had some instances where people said that
they did not get notices. We had one or two instances where
people were actually in the Courthouse, but were in the wrong
place, and when they showed up it was too late, the Court was
o ver.
Q. Now, I ask you to recall, if you can, Defendants*
Exhibit 34, concerning the action taken in the case of Reverend
Ralph Edwin King, where he was arrested on a disturbance of the
peace charge on, - I think the record will show the date, I*m
not sure exactly what it was, and that a guilty plea was entered
J . Young, 1748 .
for him. Can you explain the circumstances of that?
A. When Reverend King was arrested, this was on the date
I believe of the funeral of Medgar Evers. Reverend King, along
with several other persons were arrested. We posted cash appear
ance bonds for these persons and made no Court appearance. The
bonds were forfeited.
Q. Was it the intention of counsel to plead Reverend
King and the other persons on that date guilty of the charges for
which they were arrested?
A. It was our intention for any person who did not appear
to enter pleas of nolo contendere for them, but in this case we
forfeited the bond and we made no appearance at all in the City
Court.
Q. In all of these cases, has it been the policy where
you didnTt have the procedural problems that you have been talk
ing about to raise constitutional questions in the defense of
these persons at their trial?
A. Well, that has been, - you see, these people have been
tried under Section 594, or rather Ordinance 594 of the City of
Jackson, which is an ordinance which prohibits parading, under
a Section 208715, I believe, of the Mississippi Code, which is
the breach of the peace statute, under 2296.5, I believe, which
is obstructing public streets and sidewalks, and under another
statute, I believe it is 2409, I*m not certain about that, which
has to do with entering a place of business and refusing to leave
J . Young, 1749 .
on orders to do so by the proprietor. In all of these cases, it
is our position that the statutes themselves are unconstitutional,
both on their face and in their application, so in each instance
when we try these cases, we raise the constitutional issues or
questions .
Q. I think you testified before, did you not, that all
of these cases were handled at the local level by yourself and
two other attorneys, is that right?
A. That is right.
MR. BELL:
No further questions.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Attorney Young, you stated on your first examination
here several days ago, you are an active practitioner of law
here in the City of Jackson, is that right?
A . Yes, I am.
Q. You are fully familiar with the operation of the City,
County, and Circuit Courts?
A . Yes, I am.
Q. And with the method by which one appeals from a ver
dict of the City Court to the County Court, and from the County
Court to the Circuit Court, and on up to the Supreme Court of
Mississippi?
A. Yes, lam.
Q. Those appeal statutes and all?
J . You n g , 1750 .
Q. Now, with reference to Exhibits 25, 28, and 45, that
being Bracey, Catchings, and Poole, you stated to your counsel
that these were cases that were called and these people did not
appear, is that right?
A . ThatT s right
Q. And as a result of that, you entered a nolo contendere
plea?
A. Yes, l a m .
A. ThatTs right.
Q. Now, was that the only alternative available to you
at that time?
A. It was either that or the bond would be forfeited.
Q. In other words, if you had entered no plea and your
client had not been there, then the State would have called your
bond, is that correct?
A. The State would have either had to call the bond or
try the cases in absentia.
Q. In any of these cases that you have been involved in
here, have any of these exhibits been tried in absentia?
A. No .
Q. So, we might assume that the only other method would
be the forfeit of the bond?
A. I think that would be correct.
Q. And you are familiar with the State law that the first
thing you have to take is what is known as a judgment nisi, is
J . Young, 1751 .
that correct?
Q. And that gives you a full term of Court in which to
get your client in, isn’t that right?
A . Correct .
Q. Has it not been the policy of the County Court of the
First Judicial District of Hinds County that should you bring
any of your clients in, that you then move to set the nisi aside
and that the Court has as a policy set those aside for you?
A. That has been done.
Q. Now, so, at this point, it is a matter of your choice
as to whether to enter a plea or whether to take another full
month to find your client, is that correct?
A . Yes .
Q. So out of choice, you entered nolo contendere pleas,
is that correct?
A . That’s right.
Q. Now, with the matter of Exhibit 34, dealing with the
Reverend Edwin King, you have posted bonds in the City Court
before?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And you have posted them since, I believe?
A . Correct .
Q. And, do you not know, and is it not true, that the
cash bond carries with it a plea of guilty unless the party enters
A . Correct .
J . Young 1752 .
his appearance and changes that plea?
A. I am aware of the fact.
Q. So, actually what Reverend King did was plead guilty
and put up a bond, which was forfeited when he did not appear?
A. Actually he did not plead guilty. I posted the cash
bond and the Court entered the plea of guilty.
Q. Yes, but when I say he, Attorney Young, you represent
ing him at the time, did this as his agent in legal matters and
so forth?
A. Right, I posted the bond.
Q. Now, you stated that approximately one-third of these
persons did not appear when their cases were called?
A . That* s ri ght .
Q. Now, is it not true that, without exception, or
practically every one of these people were arraigned on a day at
which they actually appeared in Court?
A. That is correct.
Q. And that their cases were set and that they, indivi
dually, were notified in open Court that their cases would be
tried on a certain date, is that not correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, you don*t mean to tell this Court that it is the
fault of the County Court or the fault of the prosecution that
these don*t appear when they know that their cases are going to
be tried on a particular date, do you?
J . Young 1753 .
Q. What did you say?
A. I have never made the statement that these folks have
failed to appear through some fault of the Court .
A. I did not say that.
Q. Or the prosecution?
A. Or the prosecution, no.
Q. Then they knew they were set up for trial and if they
didn’t get there it was more or less their own fault?
A. That’s correct.
Q. I mean it’s not yours, you notified them?
A. I notified them, correct.
Q. So these are just normal things that happen in the
practice of law, aren’t they?
A. I suppose you would have to say that.
MR . NICHOLS:
MR. BELL:
I believe that’s all, Your Honor.
Q. As a matter of fact, Attorney Young, in some instances
after the trial they were given at the time of arraignment, have
trial dates been changed, necessitating new notices going out
from time to time?
A. Yes, trial dates have been changed, but none of those
folks have failed to appear whose trial dates have been changed.
Q. After the other two attorneys, what are their names
who helped you with these cases?
J . Young 1754 .
Q. Are they both Negro attorneys?
A . Yes, they are.
MR. BELL:
No further questions.
We have only a few other minor matters to clear up,
Your Honor. You will recall when we were in the newspaper
clipping phase of the case, we had offered as a final exhibit
of this type, a group of newspaper clippings of the proceedings
of this trial, as reported by the two papers with daily circula
tion, the Jackson Daily News and the Clarion Ledger. Counsel
for the Defendants objected and y®u sustained the objection to
those clippings on the basis that you thought they were irrele
vant, I believe, and also you didn’t need the newspapers for, —
you said you had the record of the case. Nevertheless, we wanted
to have them marked for identification and you indicated that at
the conclusion of the trial, we would be able to do that.
I have here for that exhibit for identification a
group of the clippings, which is short only the clippings from
this morning’s paper and the paper that will come out this after
noon, and I would like at this time to request permission to add
those two clippings to it and bring it to the clerk’s office
this afternoon so that it could be marked for identification for
the purposes as indicated.
A. Carsie A. Hall and R. Jess Brown.
MR. WATKINS:
1755 .
We would object to its being offered in evidence,
Your Honor.
MR • BELL:
Yes, I want to make clear that they had objected and
you had sustained their objection to having this admitted in
evidence, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
Well, what is it you want to do then?
MR. BELL:
I just wanted to make sure to remind you that we did
have this additional exhibit for identification that had not yet
been handed up and it is under Rule 43, and I will bring it in
as soon as it is completed this afternoon.
THE COURT:
The objection is still sustained. I have a reporter;
I think the newspapers are just fine, they are sitting over here
in the box and you can call one of them as a witness if you want
to, but we are not going to put newspapers in a record in this
Court .
MR. BELL:
All right, Your Honor.
Next, we would like to offer two amendments to the
prayer of count 1 of the complaint, pursuant to Rule 15 of the
Federal Rules of Civil Procedures and, to make it clear, I have
set out the Section of the Article ——
17 56 .
I just don’t want to stop this case to take up
motions. Are you resting?
MR. BELL:
THE COURT:
Yes, this is just in the final, - we have no more
t estimony.
THE COURT:
Then the Plaintiffs rest?
MR. BELL:
Yes .
THE COURT:
Does the Defense have anything further?
MR. WATKINS:
No sir.
THE COURT:
All right, now you want to call up this motion, do
you?
MR . BELL:
Yes, Your Honor. I think I have set it forth here
in fairly self-explanatory fashion. The additions and dele
tions that we wanted to make; — two paragraph in the prayer,
count 1 of the complaint.
MR . WATKINS:
If it please the Court, as far as the City Officials
are concerned, we object to these amendments as not being
17 5 7 .
justified by any of the evidence offered in this case and not
having been entirely made, and we submit that amendments of this
kind, at this time are improper under the evidence offered in
the case.
THE COURT:
All right, 1*11 overrule the objection and allow the
amendments to be made in accordance with the motion.
MR. BELL:
And so I can prepare, insofar as the Court — an
order to that effect?
THE COURT:
Yes.
MR. BELL:
Thank you. We have nothing further, Your Honor.
MR. McLENDON:
May it please the Court, Mr. Watkins included that
City Officials only, I would like to register the objection of
the State Officials to the amendment.
THE COURT :
Amendments are allowed very liberally in Federal Court
in all stages of the case, even after the conclusion of the case,
to conform with the evidence and in view of that policy,
1*11 overrule the objection.
MR. BELL:
Now, I guess we really - we have no more, Your Honor
1758 .
I guess this would be the appropriate time to talk in terms of
your wishes, what would be helpful to you as far as briefs are
concerned .
THE COURT :
Well, do you want to make an oral argument?
MR. BELL:
I think not, Your Honor, unless you feel that it
would be helpful. I think you indicated at the beginning that
you thought that you were hearing the evidence and that was
going to be most helpful to you. I think for our part we would
probably prepare — supply the Court with perhaps suggested
findings of facts and conclusions of law and a brief on the
merits of the case.
THE COURT:
All right, do you want to argue it after you have
briefed it?
MR. BELL:
I would leave it to the Court. If the Court thought
it would be helpful, why I certainly would be willing to —
THE COURT:
ITm never going to tell a client what his duty or
responsibility is because I think that*s very largely as he feels
it. Frankly, I always thought it as much my duty to make an
argument as I did to appear. I have seen a lot of judges who
didn*t agree with that. Some of them are very vocal about it
1759.
and kind of violent. When Judge Griffith was on the bench he
took the position that it was kind of an affront to him, that you
thought he wouldn’t read what you wrote or something, but I don’t
feel that way about it.
MR. BELL:
In that case, I would very much like to prepare and
make an oral argument, which I think would be of more value after
we got some of this mass of evidence in some sort of organized
fa shion.
THE COURT:
Well, how much time do you want to brief it?
MR . BELL:
I believe that the Court Reporter is going to be able
to have the transcript of the proceedings ready in fairly short
order, — would you indicate that perhaps by the end of next week?
THE REPORTER:
I would say two weeks from now.
THE COURT:
Well, I want to remind you as a practical proposition
that this thing gets colder and colder with me as time runs on
and I shan’t ever usurp the function of an Appellant Judge to
read a record. I’ll read parts and take references to records,
but I’m not going to read this stuff. That’s the reason I sit
here, otherwise I might have been doing something else while this
was taking place. I’ve got very extensive notes that are very
1760 .
meaningful to me and the quicker we have this argument, the more
helpful it will be to me.
MR . BELL:
Well, whatever would be —
THE COURT:
Well, if you want two weeks, that’s all right.
MR. BELL:
I thought we would be able to document the thing and
prepare the findings, or suggested findings, and things of this
nature — would be of some aid
THE COURT:
I would think you could do that. How much time do
you want, Mr. Watkins?
MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, do I understand that at some unsuggested
date thus far, they are going to submit a brief and then are we
to reply or should we submit a brief simultaneously?
THE COURT:
Well, I invite independent briefs because if I ask
for responsive briefs, that’s a further delay in the matter.
MR . WATKINS:
Your Honor, I think what counsel had in mind was
that it would be helpful for him to have the transcript to write
his brief. I concur in that. I took notes too, but sometimes
I wasn’t able to take notes when I was questioning a witness.
1761 .
I r eali ze that .
MR. WATKINS:
And so I would suggest that we each say to the Court
that we will submit our brief to the Court within two weeks
after we get the transcript of the evidence, and that we will
then suggest; to the Court, or ask the Court to suggest to us,
when he would like to hear oral arguments on this.
THE COURT:
All right. And you would gear your briefs then to
the record and make references in your briefs to places in the
record?
MR. WATKINS:
Yes sir.
THE COURT:
I’ll certainly read that, but I won’t read the whole
record .
MR. BELL:
Oh no, we didn’t expect you to, but I thought it
would be better if we could make reference to the record.
THE COURT:
All right, then just make a note, please mam, that
independent briefs will be filed two weeks after a copy of the
record is filed with the Court.
THE COURT:
MR. BELL:
1762 .
We have nothing further, Your Honor.
All right, Court will stand in recess.
(This concluded the hearing on Friday morning,
February 28, 1964.)
COURT REPORTEii* S CERTIFICATE
State of Mississippi
County of Hinds
I, Meta Nicholson, Official Court Reporter of the Oil
and Gas Board, Jackson, Mississippi, certify that I was called
in to take the official record in the Federal Court at Jackson,
Mississippi, of the N»A.A«C»P., etc* vs. Mayor Allen Thompson,
etc., beginning on February 3, 1964, running through February 4,
5, 6, 1964, then adjourning and taking up again the same case
on February 27, 1964, and going through the morning of February
28, 1964, - I certify that I have so taken down the above
proceedings at those times and in that place, in shorthand,
and tape-recorded the same, and have had the same typed up under
my supervision, and the foregoing pages, 1 through 1368, both
inclusive, are a true and correct copy of the testimony so taken,
to the very best of my ability. Witness my signature and seal,
this 12th day of March, 1964*
THE COURTS
1763
CERTIFICATE OF PRINTER PREPARING RECORD
I, Meta Nicholson, of the M &• R Reporting Service, Jackson,
Mississippi, certify to the best of my skill and ability I have
prepared the record foregoing for the Fifth Circuit Court of
Appeals in New Orleans, and that this is a full designated
copy of the record, as it was sent to me by the Clerk of
Court of the Fifth Circuit in New Orleans, and that I have
this day sent out by mail the copies as required by law,
this the day of September, 1964