NAACP v. Thompson Transcript of Record Vol. VI

Public Court Documents
September 24, 1964

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  • Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. NAACP v. Thompson Transcript of Record Vol. VI, 1964. 541fe915-bf9a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/92474852-b9fb-4c67-8442-f7aa24be72bf/naacp-v-thompson-transcript-of-record-vol-vi. Accessed April 19, 2025.

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    Transcript of Record

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS 
FIFTH CIRCUIT 

NO. 21741

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT 
OF COLORED PEOPLE, ET AL,

VS .

ALLEN THOMPSON, MAYOR OF THE CITY OF 
JACKSON, MISSISSIPPI, ET AL,

VOLUME VI
Pages 1469 through end

APPELLANTS

APPELLEES

(Appeal from the United States District Court 
for the Southern District of Mississippi)



Vll
VOLUME VI I N D  E X (Continued) Page

TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL 
27,28, 1964-

CONTINUED OF FEBRUARY 3,4,5,6,

Dir Cr ,
L. Black (continued) 1469

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 1964
(Def.) D-20 
Exs. D-21,D-22,D-23

Redir
1472

R ecr. 
1479

Ex .
Def

TRIAL ENDED
CERTIFICATE OF PRINTER PREPARING RECORD

1469

1484
1484
1485

Def . Exs . D-24, D-25, D-26 1487
Def . Ex. 27 1488
Def . Ex. 28 1489
Def . Ex. 29 1490
Def . Ex. 31, Ex. 32 1491
Def . Ex. 33, Ex. 34 1492
Def . Ex. 35, Ex. 36 1493
Def . Ex . 37, Ex. 38 1494
Def . Exs . 39, 40, 41 1495
Def . Exs 42, 43 1496
Def . Exs . 44, 45 1497
Def . Exs . 46, 47 1498
Def . Exs . 48, 49 1499
Def . Ex. 50 1500
Def . Ex. 4 marked in evid enc e 1500
Def . Exs . 5, 6, 7, 10, 3 in evidenc e 1501
Def . Exs . 51, 52 1504

Mr . John L . Ray 1505 1560
Mr . Cliff Bingham 1604 1616 1628
Mr . W . C . Sho emaker 1630 1643
Mr. Beaver s Armstrong 1652 1665
J udg e Carl Guernsey 1673 1684
Mr . S . B . Barnes 1687 1697

Def.. ex. 54 1689
Mr. Charle s Evers 1701

Def . Ex. 55 1691
Def . Ex. 56 1692
Def . Ex. 57 1693
Def . Ex. 58 1708
Def . 11, 12,13,14 withdrawn 1710

Mayor Allen Thompson 1711
Plaintiff Ex. 28 1739
P la intiff Ex. 29 1741

Mr . Ja ck Yo ung 1743
1762
1763



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(J. L. Black - Cross) 1469 .

A. Well, yes, the way they were introduced and also 
by the —  when they did have a program. When they had a 
planned meeting, for instance, when Lena Horne was here and 
some of the bigger celebrities in the organization were here, 
they always had a printed program, and it was entitled usually, 
"NAACP Mass Meeting".

Q. And other than those, you took it from the way 
people were introduced, I take it?

A. Yes. They were introduced as their name and who
they were.

Q. They were identified?
A. I mean what office they were with.
Q. Was anybody there from the Red Cross?
A. They weren’t introduced if they were.
Q. Girl Scouts?
A. They weren’t introduced.
Q. Would you have any way of knowing if there was?
A. No.
Q. The crowd changed from night to night?
A. You mean in the difference of people —  perhaps, 

I don’t know.
Q. You couldn’t identify the same people as being 

there each night?
A. Not all of them. Some of them I could..
Q. The ones you’ve talked about, you could?



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(J* L. Black — Cross) 1470.

A. Yes, and some of the others I knew by seeing 
them in the office.

Q. I believe you made one error, and we can correct 
it for the record. When you talked about John Salter being 
introduced on June the 4th, you said he was introduced as 
chairman of the strategy committee, and I think for the sake 
of clearing it up, see if he wasn't introduced as co-chairman. 

A. When was that?
Q. June 4th, 1963.

THE COURT:
I didn't understand what your question was.

MRS. MORRIS:
I beg your pardon.

THE COURT:
I didn't understand what your question was to

him.

MRS. MORRIS:
He made a —  the witness has testified to a lot 

of this which is in the state proceeding and I was just trying 
to clear up for the record how somebody was introduced, so it 
will coincide with other testimony.
THE COURT:

You're asking him about Salter?
MRS. MORRIS:

Yes. When he testified, he said chairman.



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(J. L. Black - Cross) 1471

THE COURT:
I understood he was co-chairman.

MRS. MORRIS:
And I believe that his notes will reflect that 

he was co-chairman.
THE COURT:

I took it as co-chairman.
MRS. MORRIS:

You did? Well, I misunderstood.
THE WITNESS:

It is co-chairman.
MRS. MORRIS:

I'm sorry.
THE COURT:

Well, I don’t know Salter —  never heard of him.
MRS. MORRIS:

Q. Oh, this business on June the 2nd having to do 
with the reading of a note about —  somebody gave down at the 
fairground in jail. I think you testified that Mr. Evers 
said: don't get your child, because they want to stay there. 
Wasn't it a fact that he was reading from a note and this is 
what the note said?

A. He had a note, I'm sure. This was on the night 
of June 2nd?

Q. Yes. Hadn't he received a letter from



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(J. L. Black - Cross) 1472 .

the compound referring to the temporary jail facilities, and 
the note read in part: please do not go for your child, for
we are sure she will not come out?

A. Yes. It said: please do not go for your child -
but he started out by reading a letter from the compound, and 
he read, quote: "please do not go for your child, for we are
sure she will not come out".

Q. That's what he was reading from?
A. From a note.
Q. That's what I thought. This material that you 

brought back —  it was passed out to everybody generally, 
wasn't it?

A. Yes.
MRS. MORRIS:

I think I have nothing more. I think that is
all.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TRAVIS:

Q. Mr. Black, you were asked about this episode at 
Woolworth's —  did you give the date on that?

A. I don't recall right offhand.
Q. Did you have any conversation with the manager 

of the store?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Were you present when there was conversation



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(J. L. Black - Redirect) 1473.

with the manager of the store?
A. I hunted up the manager of the store.
Q. Why did you hunt the manager of the store?
A. To ask him if he would ask us in so that we 

could break this up before some violence erupted, and that 
Chief Ray wanted to talk to him concerning this situation that 
was inside the store.

Q. Now, you asked him to permit you to move all the 
people out?

A. No, sir, I didn't. I asked him to see Chief 
Ray about moving them out.

Q. All right. And were you present when he did 
see Chief Ray?

A. Not when he talked with him, no.
Q. Did he permit you to go into the store?
A. He didn't ask me in or anything.
Q. And you weren’t present when the conversation

between the store manager and Captain Ray took place?
A. No, sir.
Q. I believe you testified that you broke up this 

Benny Oliver and Memphis Norman fight?
A. Yes, sir. I was in the store under orders of 

Chief Ray to observe this crowd and this goings on, so that 
if any violence broke out or anything, to see how we could 
help. I went in and stood —  in fact, I was standing right



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behind the people who were sitting at the counter for a few 
minutes, and these students and several people kept coming 
on up on them, and I even ran them back behind the counter 
one time.

I told them to knock off —  stop their bantering 
and hollering or else I would ask them from the store, and I 
had no right to be in there because I hadn't been asked there.

Q. You tried to get the people there to break off 
what they were doing?

A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And leave the people at the counter alone?
A. And then I left and went back to report to Chief 

Ray that the matter was getting out of hand.
Q. All right, then what did you do after that?
A. I came back in the store, and he said: we can't 

act until we are requested to do so or asked to do so by the 
manager of the store.

Q. Who were you talking to at this time?
A. Chief Ray.
Q. All right.
A. And then he told me to go back in there and 

watch as best I could until they were invited in, until the 
rest of the police were invited in.

Q. All right, and what did you do then? Did you

(J. L. Black - Redirect) 1474.

go back in?



(J. L. Black - Redirect) 1475.

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A. I did. I walked back in, but the crowd was —  

there was a large number of people there. I don't know how 
many were there, but I couldn't get through up to where they 
were. I could see that they had catsup and mustard and stuff 
like that on them, and I walked around to the end of the 
counter, and about that time, I saw the fellow that I recognized 
as being Benny Oliver come up and tap him on the shoulder and 
knock him off the stool, and this was the only male that was 
sitting at the counter.

And as fast as I could get through the people, 
to them, I broke it up and arrested them both and got them out 
of there.

floor?
Q. Were they both struggling or fighting on the

A. They were both down on the floor by the time I 
got up there.

Q. All right, and what did you do at that point?
A. I got to them and broke it up and arrested both 

of them and took them —
Q. And you took them outside?
A. Took them out of the store and turned them over 

to Chief Ray and Lieutenant Wilson, who put them in the car, 
and I turned around to go in, and about that time, a man whose 
name is on the arrest report, came by with Joan Trumpauer, he 
was leading her out the door. And I got ahold of him and her



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(J. L. Black - Redirect) 1476

and I took her name and address and all as the complainant, 
and arrested him for assault.
THE COURT: 

THE WITNESS:
What did you arrest Norman for?

floor.
THE COURT:

Well, they were in a tangle and fighting on the

THE WITNESS:
Did you see what he was doing?

THE COURT:
At the time of fighting?

THE WITNESS:
At the time you arrested him, what was he doing?

THE COURT:
He was on the floor under Benny Oliver.

THE WITNESS:
Under Benny Oliver?

THE COURT:
Yes, sir.

THE WITNESS:
What was he doing?

I don't know. It was just an entanglement of
two men down there.
THE COURT:



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(J. L. Black - Redirect) 1477.

THE WITNESS:

THE COURT:

THE WITNESS:

THE COURT:

THE WITNESS:

THE COURT:

THE WITNESS:

Did you see who started it?

Yes, sir, I did.

Who?

Benny Oliver

What was Norman doing?

Sitting at the counter

Did he make any resistance or fight back?

None that I saw. As soon as I saw the initial 
blow, they both went down behind the people and I didn’t see 
anything from there until I got through the people to them, 
and they were down on the floor and there were just lots of 
people around. I couldn’t see them until I got back there 
through the crowd.

THE COURT:

THE WITNESS:

And you arrested both of them?

Yes, sir, —  well, more or less to get them out 
of the store there before some more trouble started.



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THE COURT:

(J. L. Black - Redirect) 1478

THE WITNESS:

THE COURT:

THE WITNESS:

What did you book Norman for?

I think it was for disturbing the peace

What was he doing disturbing the peace?

Well, in this fight, causing all this —  he was 
part of the cause of this crowd that was there.
THE COURT: 

doing.
THE WITNESS: 

THE COURT: 

THE WITNESS:

I was trying to get you to tell me what he was

Sitting at the counter there

That was causing the disturbance?

Well, he wasn't arrested for sitting at the 
counter there. He was arrested when the fighting started. 
Usually, it's a procedure of ours over there when there's a 
fight going on, is to take both parties involved in the fight, 
and then work it out when we get out from the scene, at the 
headquarters.
MR. TRAVIS:

Q. As a matter of fact, the City Court and City



(J. L. Black - Redirect) 1479.

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Judge, if you know —  do you know what disposition was made 
in the City Court on Memphis Norman?

A. I don't know what disposition was made, but I 
believe -- I was told that it was dropped.

Q. That’s all right, if you don’t know.
A . I don't know.

MR. TRAVIS:
I believe that's all.

BY MRS. MORRIS:
RECROSS-EXAMINATION

Just a few more questions.
Q. You said you arrested somebody who was taking 

Joan Trumpauer out?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you arrest both of them?
A. No.
Q. Who did you arrest of those two?
A. The one who had ahold of Joan Trumpauer.
Q. And Joan Trumpauer had been sitting at the 

counter with the rest of the people?
A. Yes.
Q. Joan Trumpauer is white, isn’t she?
A. She is.

Q. Was the person who was taking her out white,
too?



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A. Yes.
Q. You arrested him, but didn't arrest her?
A. Yes.
Q. And you arrested both Benny Oliver and Memphis

Norman?
A. Yes.
Q. And Memphis Norman was sitting at the counter

until Benny Oliver knocked him on the floor and kicked him?
A. Yes.

MRS. MORRIS:
I have no further questions.

REREDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. TRAVIS:

Q. Now, this Joan Trumpauer or whoever she is —
she wasn't fighting or anything, was she?

A. No, she wasn't.
Q. She was just being hauled —
A. Bodily hauled from the store. Had she been

entangled on the floor also, she probably would have gone, too. 
MR.TRAVIS: That is all I have.
THE COURT:

I'm going to have to take a recess. What is 
counsels situation on the 27th?
MR. BELL:

We have, Your Honor, I think a sufficient staff

(J. L. Black — Recross) 1480..

so that whenever it is convenient to you to start again, we



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1481 .

will have our plaintiffs representative here. At your 
earliest convenience would be satisfactory to us.

THE COURT:
Well, I will be in Biloxi. I’ve got two weeks 

set down there, and I didn’t plan to hold that session. I 
was going to get Judge Allen Cox of the Northern District 
to hold it, and he got in an automobile accident and he and 
his wife got hurt, so I had sixty-two jurors coming down there 
and I've just got to go and hold it, and counsel from several 
states down there.

I’ll be down there two weeks and it would be 
most convenient with me -- it would be more convenient with 
me to presume on the 27th, but if there is any reason why 
some other date has to be set, I'll see what your situation 

is .
MR. BELL:

MR. WATKINS:

We have no objection to that date

The 27th. We will make ourselves available

THE COURT:
That's on Thursday at nine o'clock on the 27th. 

I think we ought to wind up in at least a couple of days.
I'm not asking you to take that much time.

MR. BELL:
If I might have permission, Your Honor, if



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1482 .

it’s not too much in violation of the rules of the Court, I 
would like to withdraw the plaintiff's exhibits for identifi­
cation concerning these clippings. I think that if I could 
take them with me, I could get copies of the ones which are 
not copies, so that the exhibits would all be uniform, and 
perhaps I could get copies made so that counsel for the other 
side would be able to have a set which I wasn't able to pro­
vide at the trial. >
THE COURT:

Well, that would have been better, but since 
they're here, I don't believe I would let the Court record 
get away. They can come up here and look at them. I don't 
believe I would like for them to be removed because they are 
a part of the Court record now.
MR. BELL:

That's all right.
THE COURT:

All right, we'll take a recess insofar as this 
proceeding is concerned until nine o'clock on February 27th, 
1964. About how many witnesses does the City contemplate 

using?
MR. WATKINS:

Your Honor, right now I would estimate ten or 
twelve. The reason I say probably, is that in view of the 
evidence that has been offered here today, we will not use



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1483 .

some that are on our list, and we will have to substitute 
others for them.
THE COURT:

I'm trying to tell you what courtroom we'll 
be in. We'll resume this case in courtroom No. 2 upstairs, 
because I’ve got witness accommodations for small crowds, and 
if the audience overflows that room up there, they're just 
going to have to stay out, because I'm not going to allow 
anybody other than lawyers and litigants to sit inside the 
rail. We're just not going to take care of anybody who can't 
find a seat in the audience, because it's just not satisfac­
tory trying to function down here. The acoustics are so bad 
and we have to ask people to repeat too much, so I think it's 
a lot more important that the Court function where it can do 
so more efficiently, so we'll resume in courtroom No. 2 at 
nine o'clock on Thursday, February 27th.

(The proceedings recessed until 
Thursday, February 27th, at nine 
o'clock A.M.)



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1484

(Court resumed in this case on Thursday morning, February 27, 
1964, at 9 A.M., and the proceedings were as follows:
THE COURT:

All right, who will you have, Mr. Travis?
MR. TRAVIS:

At this point, Your Honor, we would like to introduce 
abstracts of the court records of the various witnesses who have 
testified on behalf of the plaintiff in this matter.

I would like first to introduce the abstract of the 
court record of Plaintiff’s witness, Frankie Mae Adams for 
arrest on May 3lst, 1963, when she was charged with parading 
without a permit and this abstract shows that the County Court 
entered a directed verdict for the plaintiff in that case.

We would like to offer that as Defendants’ Exhibit
No . 20 .
THE COURT:

All right, let it be marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-20.)

MR. TRAVIS:
We would like to offer as Defendants’ Exhibit No. 21 

an abstract of the Circuit Clerk of Hinds County in regard to 
Frankie Mae Adams’ arrest on June the 13th for parading without 

a permit which shows that her appeal in this matter to the 
County Court, First Judicial District, is still pending.

THE COURT



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1485 .

All right, that may be admitted into evidence and 

properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-21.)

MR. TRAVIS:
As Defendants’ Exhibit No. 22, we would like to offer 

the certificate of the Circuit Clerk relative to the County 
Court records on Plaintiff’s witness, Frankie Mae Adams, regard­
ing her arrest on July 24th for parading without a permit which 
shows that this matter is on appeal for jury trial in County 
Court on June 15th. That is Defendants’ Exhibit No. 22.

THE COURT:
That abstract may be admitted in evidence and be 

properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-22.)

MR. TRAVIS:
The certificate of the Chief Clerk of the Police 

Court of the City of Jackson relative to the judgment of Plain­
tiff’s witness, Doris Allison, in which she was charged with 
obstructing the sidewalk on May 29th, which shows that this 
charge against her was dismissed by Municipal Court of the City 

of Jackson; that will be Exhibit No. 23, Defendants’ Exhibit 23. 

THE COURT:
All right, that certificate may be admitted in evi­

dence and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-23.)



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1486

MR, TRAVIS:
As Defendants’ Exhibit No. 24, we would like to offer 

the abstract of the court records of the County Court of Hinds 
County of Plaintiff’s witness, Jimmie Lee Bell, for the charge 

of parading without a permit on June 3, 1963, which shows that 
the County Court sustained defendant’s motion for a direct 
verdict on September 18, 1963.
THE COURT:

What is the purpose of admitting those documents, Mr.

Travis?
MR. TRAVIS:

Well, Your Honor, of course, these witnesses testifiec 

relative to these various arrests. These are abstracts of 
records of witnesses, —  of the court records of the witnesses 
who testified before you on behalf of the Plaintiff in this 

matter.
THE COURT:

They testified at variance with these abstracts?

MR. TRAVIS:
As you will recall, you told us at that time that the 

best manner in which to bring out this proof was by the court 
records or abstracts. They didn’t know what the situation was. 

THE COURT:
All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence

and be properly marked



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(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-24.)

MR. TRAVIS:
The abstract on Plaintiff’s witness, Doris Ruth 

Bracey relative to a charge by the City of Jackson of obstructin' 
a public sidewalk on May 30th, 1963, which shows that she entered 
a nolo contendere plea in County Court and paid a $250.00 fine 

on September 30th, 1963.

_______________________________________________________________________ 1487 .

THE COURT:
All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence 

and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-25.)

MR. TRAVIS:
The judgment of the City Court under the certificate 

of the Chief Clerk of the Police Court with regards to the 
charge of obstructing the sidewalk, public sidewalk, against 
Plaintiffs’ witness, Doris Ruth Bracey, on May 28, 1963, would 
show that that was dismissed, that that charge was dismissed by 
Municipal Court.
THE COURT :

All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence 

and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-26.)

MR. TRAVIS:
Also, with regard to Doris Ruth Bracey, is the chargr 

of parading without a permit on June 12, 1963, which shows that



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1488 .

on September 24th she filed an appeal bond to the Circuit Court 
she had been tried by and convicted.

MR. BELL:
Are we up to number 27, if you will excuse me please?

MR. TRAVIS:
Yes .

THE COURT:
All right, that certified abstract may be admitted 

in evidence and properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-27.)

MR. TRAVIS:
The certified abstract of the City of Jackson vs. 

Benjamin Brown, a Plaintiffst witness in this matter, with 
regard to parading without a permit on June 4, 1963, which shows 
that there was a jury verdict of ’’Not Guilty” and the defendant 

was dismissed.
MRS. MORRIS:

Mr. Travis, I don’t believe any Benjamin Brown 
testified in this case according to the list of witnesses here. 

MR. TRAVIS:
All right, we will withdraw this and I’ll check it. 
May I withdraw the last one that we mentioned, Your 

Honor, Benjamin Brown, and move to introduce the certified 
abstract of Plaintiffs’ witness, Evelyn Carter, for —  she was 

charged for parading without a permit on June 7, 1963. It



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1489 .

shows that the charge against her was dismissed upon payment of 
costs on October 15th in County Court.

MRS. MORRIS:
We didn’t have any Evelyn Carter testify either.

MR. TRAVIS:
May I withdraw that one likewise and we will check it.

THE COURT:
All right.

MR. TRAVIS:
I would like to introduce the certified abstract in 

regard to the Plaintiffs’ witness, Bennie Lee Catchings, who was 
charged on June 4th with breach of the peace in the City of 
Jackson. This abstract reflects that on October 16th she entered 
a plea of nolo contendere in the County Court and was sentenced 
to a $200.00 fine and four months in jail; said jail term being 
suspended upon payment of costs and that on October the 22nd, 
1963, the defendant, Bennie Lee Catchings, paid said fine and 

costs in full.
THE COURT:

All right, that certified abstract may be admitted 

in evidence and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit D-28.)

MR. TRAVIS:
Certified abstract in regards to Plaintiffs’ witness, 

Mattie Bivins jDennis, who was charged with obstructing the



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1490 .

sidewalk on May 29, 1963, which shows that that charge was dis­
missed by the Municipal Court of the City of Jackson on the 7th 
day of June, 1963.
THE COURT:

All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence 
and be properly marked.

(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-29.)
MR. TRAVIS:

Thresa Mae Easley; abstract with regards to parading 
without a permit on December 6th, -- certified abstract. We 
would like to offer that as an exhibit. It is under the certi­
ficate of the Chief Clerk of the Police Court.
MR. BELL:

The only objection that we would make on this is,—  

well, we would have no objection if the record were to show that 
while the parading without a permit charge was dismissed, the 
defendant here was also charged with obstructing the sidewalk 

and that charge, so far as we know, was not dismissed and I 
think she was tried and found guilty of this -- in this situatio 
MR. TRAVIS:

I think you are talking about another —
MR. BELL:

This was

No, I think this 
the housewives who

is the December 6th 
were picketing down

situation. 
on Capitol Str ee

THE COURT



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4 91.

I’ll overrule the objection and let that be admitted 
in evidence and if there is some other or additional certificate 
to be obtained you may obtain it and present it.
MR. TRAVIS:

We’ll check the records on that -- that shows that 
that charge was dismissed.

Then we have two abstracts in regard to Plaintiffs’ 
witness, Doris Annette Erskine. The first when she was charged 
with parading, -- unlawful trespass on May 29th, which shows and 
reflects that this case is set for jury trial in County Court on 
June 1st,
THE COURT:

That certified abstract may be admitted in evidence 
and be properly marked.

(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-31.)

MR. TRAVIS:
The second one in regard to Doris Annette Erskine 

when she was charged with breach of the peace on May 30th, 

reflecting that this case also was set for jury trial on June 

1st.
THE COURT:

All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence 

and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-32.)

MR. TRAVIS:



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Certified abstract in regard to Plaintiffs’ witness, 
Ralph Edwin King, Jr., charged with disturbing the peace on June 
13th, 1963, which shows that the Court entered a judgment of 
’’Guilty” and sentenced him to pay a fine of $100.00 on the 17th 
of June.
THE COURT:

All right, it may be admitted and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-33.)

MR. TRAVIS:
Abstract under certificate of the Chief Clerk of the 

Police Court relative to the affidavit of Ralph Edwin King, Jr. 
which reflects that the sentence of $100.00 fine, that he paid 
this $100.00 fine on June 17th after entering a plea of "guilty” 

and the certificate certifies further that statutory forty days 
in which to appeal expired without the defendant taking appeal. 
THE COURT :

All right, that certified abstract may be admitted 

and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-34.)

MR. TRAVIS:
Certified abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness, 

Ralph Edwin King, Jr., who was charged with breach of the peace 

on May 30th, 1963, which reflects that this case is on appeal in 
the County Court and set for jury trial on July 7, 1964.

THE COURTS



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1493 ,

That certified abstract may be admitted in evidence 

and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D~35.)

MR, TRAVIS:
Certified abstract of the Chief Clerk of the Police 

Court of the City of Jackson relative to Plaintiffs1 witness, 
Willie Ben Ludden, Jr., who was charged with obstructing the 
sidewalk on May 29, 1963, reflects that he entered a plea of 
"Not Guilty" and that the charge against him was dismissed by 
the Municipal Court of the City of Jackson on the 7th day of Jun 

1963 c
THE COURT:

All right, that certified abstract may be admitted in 

evidence and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D—36.)

MR. TRAVIS:
Certified abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness, 

Willie Ben Ludden, Jr., in regards to a charge for parading 
without a permit on May 3lst, 1963, which reflects that this 
matter is on appeal to County Court of the First Judicial 
District of Hinds County, Mississippi, and set for jury trial 

on March 24, 1964,

THE COURT:
That may be admitted in evidence and be properly

marked.



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(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-37)
MR, TRAVIS i

Certified abstract of judgment with regard to Plain­

tiffs’ witness, Memphis Norman, who was charged with disturbing 

the peace on May 28, 1963, which reflects that that charge was 
nolprossed on May 3lst, and dismissed.

By way of explanation in regard to this next offer, 
Your Honor, this was the -- Memphis Norman was the one who 
testified, the witness who testified relative to certain happen­
ings at Woolworth’s Store here in the City of Jackson on May 28, 
and at this point we would like to introduce the judgment - 

THE COURT:
Let me act on the other offer. Admit that in evi­

dence and let it be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-38.)

MR. TRAVIS:
That was by way of explanation in regard to this 

certified abstract of judgment in regard to Benney G. Oliver, 

who, the person who it was stated by Memphis Norman had 
assaulted him on that occasion. This judgment reflects that he 
was found guilty, after entering a not guilty plea, he was found 

guilty and sentenced to pay a $100.00 fine and thirty days in 

jail.

All right, that certified copy of that judgment may t

1494 .

THE COURT:



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1495 ,

admitted in evidence and be properly marked,
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-39.)

MR. TRAVIS:
Certificate relative to Helen Jean O’Neal on a charge 

of September 4, 1961, which reflects that she was released with­
out bond and the charges were dismissed against her by the Court. 

THE COURT:
That certificate may be admitted in evidence and be 

properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-40.)

MR. TRAVIS:
Certified Abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness, 

Helen Jean O’Neal when she was charged with obstructing a public 
sidewalk or street on June 7, 1963, which reflects that the 
matter is on appeal in the County Court set for jury trial on 

March 2, 1964.
THE COURT:

All right, that may be admitted in evidence and be 

properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-41.)

MR. TRAVIS:
Certified abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness, 

Will Levi Palmer with regard to the charge of parading without 
a permit on May 3lst, which reflects that this is on appeal alsc

and set for jury trial.



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1496

THE COURT:
All right, that certified abstract may be admitted 

in evidence and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-42 )

MR. TRAVIS:
Certified abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness, 

Will Lewis Palmer, Jr. with regard to his parading without a per­
mit on June 12, which shows that this charge likewise has been 
appealed and has been set for jury trial on March 9.

THE COURT:
How many more have you got here?

MR . TRAVIS:
I have about half a dozen, Your Honor, I’m sorry.

THE COURT:
That is all right. I was just going to suggest to 

put them all in at one time. I don’t see much point in putting 
them in separately. That may be admitted in evidence and be 

properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-43.)

MR . TRAVIS:
Certified abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness, 

Will Lewis Palmer, Jr., in regard to the charge of parading 
without a permit on June 14, 1963, which reflects that this 
charge is also set for trial on March 9, 1964. The last three

that we have offered, although the names vary on the certificate



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1497.

of the abstract, all are the same person.

THE COURT:
You mean the same person with different names?

MR. TRAVIS:
The same individual, Your Honor, it is the same per­

son, but he used a different name when he was booked by the 

police.
THE COURT:

All right, this abstract may be admitted in evidence 

and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-44.)

MR. TRAVIS:
Certified abstract in regard to Plaintiffs’ witness, 

Betty Ann Poole, who was charged with parading without a permit 
on May 31st, 1963, which relfects that on September 16th she 
entered a plea of nolo contendere in County Court and was sen­
tenced to a $100.00 fine and 30 days in jail. The jail term was 
suspended upon payment of costs. On September 25th the defendan 

Betty Ann Poole paid said fine and costs in full.

THE COURT :
All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence 

and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-45.)

MR. TRAVIS:
Certified abstract relative to a charge of parading



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without a permit on June 12, 1963, Plaintiffs’ witness, Robert 
L. T. Smith, which reflects that he was released on bond on that 
date and that the charge against him was dismissed by the Court, 

that’s the Municipal Court.
THE COURT:

All right, that certificate may be admitted in evi­

dence and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-46.)

MR. TRAVIS:
Certified abstract of the judgment of Plaintiffs’ 

witness, Eddie Jean Thomas, charged with obstructing a public 
sidewalk on May 28, 1963, which reflects she entered a plea of 
”Not Guilty” and the charge against her was dismissed in Munici­

pal Court on June 7th, 1963.
THE COURT:

That abstract may be admitted in evidence and be 

properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-47.)

MR. TRAVIS:
Certified copy of the abstract of the record on 

Eddie Jean Thomas, Plaintiffs’ witness, in regard to the charge 
of breach of peace on May 30, 1963, which reflects that this 
matter has been appealed and set for jury trial in County Court 

April 27, 1964.

THE COURT:



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1499 .

All right, the abstract may be admitted in evidence 

and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-48.)

MR. TRAVIS:
Certified copy of the abstract, Eddie Jean Thomas, 

Plaintiffs’ witness, regarding the charge of unlawfully parading 
without a permit on June 12, 1963, which reflects that that 
matter has been appealed to the County Court and set for jury 

trial April 27, 1964.
THE COURT:

That abstract may be admitted in evidence and be 

properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-49.)

MR. TRAVIS:
And, finally, Your Honor, we would like to introduce 

the certified abstract in regard to the charge of unlawfully 
obstructing the public sidewalk; the charge is against Plain­

tiffs’ witness, Hezekiah Watkins. This charge was on June 7th, 
1963, which reflects that in County Court after an appeal has 
been taken, the case came up for trial and he entered a plea of 
nolo contendere; said charge was sentenced to pay a fine of 
$500.00 and six months in jail, with said jail term being sus­
pended upon payment of costs. This was on September the 17th. 
On September the 30th, 1963, the defendant, Hezekiah Watkins, 

paid said costs and fine in full.



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1500 .

THE COURT:
All right, that certified abstract may be admitted 

in evidence and be properly marked.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-50.)

MR . WATKINS:
May it please the Court, the Defendants would like to 

now offer in evidence what has heretofore been marked Defendants’ 
Exhibit 4, for identification, which is a pamphlet which we say 
has been identified for the record already by witnesses Charles 
Evers, Reverend Edwin King, Betty Poole, and other Plaintiffs’ 
witnesses as pamphlets, —  one of the pamphlets used in connec­
tion with the boycott, which was sponsored by the NAACP and 

others of these plaintiffs as a part of the demonstrations in­
volved in this lawsuit.
THE COURT:

All right, that may be admitted in evidence and be
marked.

MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, will you note my objection. I don’t see 

any relevancy in this at all.
THE COURT:

What was that?
MRS. MORRIS:

I don’t see the relevance in this particular exhibit 

at all. Defendants have not put in any permanent defenses,



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1501 .

they have merely entered a denial.
THE COURT:

I will overrule the objection. Let it be marked with 
the same corresponding number.

(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-4.)

MR. WATKINS:
Now, I offer in evidence what has been marked as 

Defendants’ Exhibit 5 for identification, which is a similar 
pamphlet, similarly identified by Plaintiffs’ witnesses hereto­
fore in this record.
THE COURT:

All right, let it be entered in evidence and be 
properly marked.

(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-5.)

MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, Defendants’ Exhibits 6, 7, 10 and 3 are 

similar in nature, having been identified by the Plaintiffs’ 
witnesses. The only possible difference is Exhibit 7 which 
does bear on the same subject, but the witness Evers did make 
the statement that the National Organization did not approve of 
the issuance of that pamphlet by the Local Organization. That 
is the only difference in those Exhibits.
MR. BELL:

We make the same objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT:



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1502 •

All right, I, of course, don’t have this clearly 
enough in mind to make any evaluation at this time, but I’ll 
admit it in evidence and study it in connection with my notes.
It may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked.

(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibits as D-6, D-7,

D-10, and D-3.)
MR. BELL:

Mr. Watkins, would you read over again the various 

Exhibits that you are offering at this time?
THE COURT :

As I understand it, these were Exhibits that had been 
previously offered for identification. All right, give him a 

list of them please.
MR. WATKINS:

Number 4, number 5, number 6, number 7, number 10, 

and number 3.

MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, let the record show also that, to the 

best of my recollection, 4 and 5 were never identified by any 
of the witnesses. They said they may have seen something 

similar to them.

MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, it is my recollection that some witnesses 

said that, but that others did identify each one of those. At

least one witness identified each one of them.



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1503 .

THE COURT:
That’s my recollection; that both of you are correct, 

that some of them didn’t identify them and some of them did, and 
I will overrule the objection. It may be admitted in evidence 
and be properly marked.
MR. WATKINS:

Now, if it please the Court, Defendants would like to 
offer in evidence the deposition of the Plaintiff, Reverend 
Ralph Edwin King, taken on September 20, 1963, together with 
additional answers filed by him under date of January 29, 1964, 
in connection with the same deposition..

MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, we would object to that. Reverend King

is available as a witness. There is no showing that he is un-of
available and the purpose/depositions or answers to interroga­
tories in accordance with the rules is that they may be used for 

the purpose of cross examination —
MR. WATKINS:

Your Honor, may I be heard on that?

THE COURT:
Yes.

MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, Reverend King has been on the stand and 

has been cross examined, but I am introducing this under Rule 

26(d)(2), which provides that the deposition of a party , and he



1504 .

is a party, may be used by adverse party for any purpose.
THE COURT:

I’ll overrule the objection.
MR. WATKINS:

Now, there are two separate documents, Your Honor, well 
they both bear the same Exhibit number.
THE COURT:

Let me see that. What would be the next number?
THE CLERK:

The next number will be 51.
THE COURT:

All right, this deposition -oi fleverend King may be 
admitted in evidence and be marked Defendants’ Exhibit 51 and 
the answers of Reverend King to these interrogatories, one 
hundred and eleven in number, may be admitted in evidence and 
be properly marked.

(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibits as D-51 and 
D-52.)

MR. NICHOLS:
We would like to call John Ray.

THE COURT:

Who did you say?
MR. NICHOLS:

I beg your pardon, Your Honor, we would like to 

call as a witness John L. Ray.



(J. L. Ray, Dir.) 1505.

THE COURT:
All right, John Ray?

MR. NICHOLS:
I believe his name is John L. Ray, Your Honor. 

MR. JOHN L. RAY
being called as a witness by the plaintiff and after first 
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
MR. NICHOLS:

Q. Would you give your name and age and address to 
the Court Reporter?

A. J, L. Ray, 44, address, 222 Calhoun Street, City 
of Jackson.

Q. Now, Mr. Ray, by whom are you employed?
A. The City of Jackson, Police Department,
Q. How long have you been with the Police Department 

in the City of Jackson?
A. A little better than twenty-two years.
Q. Do you presently hold any rank with the Police 

Department?
A. Ido.
Q. What is that?
A. Deputy Chief of Police.
Q. Did you hold that rank during the period from May

15, 1963, through the balance of, or rather through the



J . L. Ray, Dir 1506

date of today?
A. I did.
Q. Are you familiar with the streets of Jackson, 

Mississippi?
A . Iam.
Q. Do you know whether there is a street named Farish 

Street?
A . Yes sir .
Q. Are you familiar with that street?
A . I am.
Q. Is there a street names Livingston Road?
A . Yes sir .
Q. And is there one named Ridgeway?
A . Yes sir.
Q. Are you familiar with those?
A . I am.
Q. Is there a street called Pascagoula Street?
A . Yes sir .
Q. Are you familiar with that street?
A . I am .
Q. Are there streets called Rose Street and Deer Park, 

Street in the City?
A . Correct.
Q. Are you familiar with those streets?

A . I am.



J . L. Ray, Dir 1507 .

Q. Is there a street called Dalton Street in the City 
of Jackson?

A . Yes sir.
Q. Are you familiar with that?
A. I am.
Q. Were you on duty on May 31, 1963?

A . I wa s .
Q. Now, at that time when you were on duty were you 

dressed in your police uniform?

A . I wa s .
Q. Now, do you know of a church called Farish Street 

Baptist Church here in the City of Jackson?

A . I do .
Q. Tell the Court where that church is located, if you

would?
A. It is located at the intersection of Farish and 

Church Street on the southwest corner.
Q. Now, briefly describe the street known as Farish 

Street?
A. Farish Street is, I would say, in the center of the 

City of Jackson. It’s a narrow street, runs north and south. 
It is about twenty-five feet in width, has sidewalks on each

side, and North Farish starts at Capitol Street; South Farish
/

is on the other side of Capitol Street. That’s the 100 block. 
Q. Where is the Baptist Church located in relation to



J . L. Ray, D i r . 1508.

Capitol Street?
A. It is about six blocks, I believe it is seven blocks 

from Capitol Street on Farish.

Q. Now, Capitol Street, does it intersect Farish Street?
A . It does.
Q. Capitol Street would run which way?
A . Ea st and west.
Q. Now, did you have occasion to be in the neighborhood 

of the Farish Street Baptist Church on May 31, 1963?
A. I did.

Q. Now, what, if anything, happened at that place while 
you were there?

A. They had quite a gathering at the Farish Street 
Baptist Church. In fact of the business, it was an overflow 
crowd. At about 4:30 P.M. they began to flock out of the 
Church; they blocked Farish Street and Church Street and they 

got in a formation and started marching south on Farish Street 
toward Capitol Street. I had a detail of police officers at 
the intersection of Hamilton and Farish; that is at the 
beginning of the 400 block. When they started their march, 
we formed a skirmish line across Farish Street from sidewalk 
to sidewalk. They were marching toward us chanting, singing, 

carrying small American flags and placards.
Q. Now, pause there and let me ask you this question, 

to describe the formation you referred to that the people



J . L. Ray, Dir 1509 .

were in?
A. Well, there was a group of about twenty marching in 

columns of twos on the sidewalk. Immediately following those, 
they were in columns of six or eight, completely taking up 
the west sidewalk and more than half of Farish Street used by 
vehicular traffic.

Q. Now, Farish Street at that point; describe whether 
or not it has, -- you mentioned the sidewalk, does dt have

ewalks on both sides of the street or one?
A. It do es have sidewalk s on both sides of the street.

Q. At that point , —  you mentioned Fari sh Street

lier of b<;ing twenty-five feet in width, is that the

approximate width of the street at that point?

A. Approximately, yes.
Q. Now, are there any buildings along the way at that 

point on Farish Street?

A. Yes sir, itTs buildings.
Q. Commercial establishments?
A . That *s right.
Q. All right, sir, you mentioned a group of people 

walking on the sidewalk and you gave a total. Now, you men­
tioned other people following them in columns of sixes. Would 
you make an estimation of the crowd at that time?

A. About four hundred.

Q. Four hundred people?



J. L. Ray, Dir. 1510

A.
Q.

skirmi sh 
A.

Q.
A.

Q.
south of 

A. 

Q. 
A.

Q.

Yes sir.
Now, you pulled your police officers up in a 

line, is that correct?
That is correct.

Now, which way was this crowd moving?
They were moving south on Farish Street.
Did you set your line up north of that crowd or 

that crowd?
I was south of the crowd.
In other words, they were marching toward you? 
That is correct .
All right, go on with your story at that point,

plea se .
A. As they approached this skirmish line that we had 

set up across Farish Street at Hamilton Street, using a port­
able loud speaker I inquired if any of the group had a permit 
to parade. They ignored my order and continued moving toward 
this skirmish line. I asked that the second or third time and 
by that time they had reached the skirmish line and the leader 

of the group pushed into the police officers, and he was hold­
ing his night stick in an outward position.

Q. Who was holding the night stick?
A. Lieutenant Wilson.
Q. The police officer was holding the night stick?

A. That is correct.



J. L. Ray, Dir. 1511.

Q. All right, sir.
A. And the leader of that group moved into this night 

stick and he continued to hold it, and he ignored my order as 
to whether or not he had a permit. Then I told those who 
would disperse and move on peacefully they would be allowed to 
do so. I gave that order two or three times, using this port­
able loud speaker .

Q. At that point, you asked if they had a permit to 
parade, and did anyone answer you?

A . They did not.
Q. Did the formation stop?
A. It had to stop, yes.
Q. It stopped at the skirmish line?
A . That*s right.
Q. Now, at that point you told them to disperse, is 

that correct?
A. I told those who would disperse and move on peace­

fully that they would be allowed to do so; that those who 
remained would be arrested and charged with parading without 
a permit, and I would estimate that about eighty-five of them 
did disperse and the rest were placed under arrest. The 
leader of this group seemed to be very persistent; he was 
trying his best to get through that line.

Q.. Do you know who the leader was?

A. I do



J . L . Ray, Dir 1512.

Q. Do you know his name?
A. Ido.
Q. Did you know him by sight at that time by that name? 
A. I did.

Q. And, what was his name?
A. Willie Ludden.

Q. Did you arrest people on that date?
A. I did.
Q. And at that place?
A. I did.

Q. Do you have any total of the number of the people you 
arrest ed?

A. Three hundred and twenty-two.
Q. Were all of them adults?
A . No sir .
Q. Do you have any breakdown on the figures as to 

adults and juveniles?
A. Seventy-eight of the three hundred and twenty-two were 

adults, the rest were juveniles.
MRS. MORRIS:

I would like for the record to show what the wit­
ness is reading from.
MR. NICHOLS:

Q. Letts clear up the record, from what are you read­
ing, Captain Ray?



J . L. Ray, Dir. 1513 .

A. Just some personal notes I made.
Q. What was the occasion of you making those notes?
A. You told me to refresh my memory, and I made these

not es.
Q. And how did you refresh your memory?
A. By the official reports made at the time of the 

arrest s.
Q. Now, by a matter of subtraction there, the total 

that you gave me of three hundred and twenty-two, total 
arrested; seventy-eight adults, that would leave approximately 
a total of two hundred and thirty-four juveniles, if my addi­
tion is correct, is that correct?

A. That is correct.
Q. All right, as concerns Willie Ludden, you stated that 

he was the party who walked into the night stick being held by 
Lieutenant Wilson, is that correct?

A. That is correct.
Q. At that point, did you notice Willie Ludden when he 

was arrested, if he was arrested?
A. After he was arrested, he was passed on through the 

line. I did not see him after that.
Q. In other words, you lost visual contact with Ludden 

after he was arrested, is that correct?

A. That is correct. I was concerned with these others.
Q. Up to that time did you see any force used by a



J . L. Ray, Dir 1514.

police officer on Willie Ludden?
A . I did not.
Q. Now, after you had placed these people under arrest, 

what next happened at this location?
A. After they were placed under arrest and we started 

to loading them into the transportation that we had. They 
begaft to jump up and down and shout and chant and they stam­
peded, defying our orders. They went into Hobson*s Alley and 
we had enough police officers to block the alley off and we 
kept them there in Hobson*s Alley until we transported them to 

jail.
Q. You mean after you arrested these people, placed 

them under arrest, they stampeded?
A . Yes sir.
Q. Did they give you an explanation of that?
A. They were in the street there on Farish Street and 

on the sidewalk; had the street blocked and the sidewalk 
blocked. After we started loading them, after we loaded the 

first two trucks, then they stampeded; they got to shouting 
and chanting. One of the group said "follow me" and they ran 
from us, I mean they j-ust wouldn*t stand there.

Q. Were they attempting to get away from you?
A. They were resisting correction.
Q. Now, Chief Ray, were these people transported to a

jail?



J . L . Ray, Dir 1515.
A . They were .
Q. How were they transported?
A. We used trucks that were furnished by the City 

Engineering Department, Water Department, and Sanitation 
Department.

Q. All right, sir, what type of vehicles were furnished 
you by the Sanitation Department?

A. Garbage trucks.
Q. Now, did you have occasion to make a visual inspec­

tion of those trucks?
A. I did.

Q.. Was that prior to the loading of the prisoners or 
after the loading?

A. Prior to the loading of prisoners.
Q. Would you state to the Court the condition of those 

trucks at the time you saw them?
A. They were new trucks.
Q. 1*11 ask you this question, was there any evidence 

that they had been used for the hauling of garbage at that 
time, prior to that time?

MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I would object to the form of these 

questions. He has been leading the witness for some time now. 
THE COURT:

Yes, 1*11 sustain the objection



J . L. Ray, Dir 1516 .

MR. NICHOLS:
Q. What, if anything, did your inspection of this truck 

reflect?
A. They were new trucks, never been used.
Q. And, Captain Ray, you stated that the prisoners were 

taken away. Do you know of your own knowledge where they were 
taken?

A. I do .

Q. All right, sir, where were they taken?
A. At the temporary jail facility located at the fair 

ground.

Q. All right, sir. You stated you knew, the location of 
Livingston Road and Ridgeway Street in the City of Jackson, is 
that correct?

A. Yes sir.
Q. Would you describe these streets briefly, please?
A. Livingston Road is a blacktopped street. It begins 

at Woodrow Wilson and extends north to Northside Drive, which 
is approximately two miles. Ridgeway Street is about half way,

V 'i

intersects about half way between Woodrow Wilson, and Nort-h..sid« 
Drive or about a mile from Woodrow Wilson. Itts about twenty- 
five to thirty feet in width, and Ridgeway Street runs north 
and south. Itts an offset there at Livingston Road in Ridge­
way Street and itts about the same width.

Q_. Are there any sidewalks on either one of these streets?



J . L . Ray, D i r . 1517 .

A. No sir, there*s no sidewalks, there is a gravel por­
tion on each side that is used by pedestrian traffic.

Q. Did you have occasion to be on Livingston Road on 

May 31, 1963?
A. I did.
Q. And, what, if anything, occurred while you were out 

there on that day?
A. I was dispatched by police radio that a group of 

people were marching south on Livingston Road. They were 
carrying placards and singing and chanting, causing quite a 
disturbance and blocking vehicular traffic, so I proceeded to 
the intersection of Ridgeway and Livingston Road; told the 
radio operator to send a detail of men to meet me there. . When 
I arrived, this parade was about a half a block from that 
intersection. They were in columns of six, some on the gravel 
portion, others taking up about half of Livingston Road.

Using this portable loud speaker, I inquired if any
of those had a permit. They indicated that they did not.
After giving that order the second or third time, I then told 

who would
those/disperse and move on peacefully, that they would be 
allowed to do so. I estimate that about thirty to thirty-five 
did disperse and move on across the railroad track. Those who 
remained were placed under arrest for parading without a permit.

Q. What type of street is Livingston Road at that point, 

is it two-way traffic! or does it have four lanes, or what?



J . L. Ray, Dir 1518

A. Two-way traffic.
Q. One lane for each direction?
A . Correct .
Q. At the time you arrived and observed the situation, 

you describe, was vehicular traffic impeded in any manner on —  

MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to the form of these questions.

THE COURT:
I sustain the objection.

MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Do you have any record of the number of parties you 

arrested on that date?
THE COURT:

You may tell the effect, if any, it had on traffic. 
You can describe the situation. He is very articulate, go 

ahead.
THE WITNESS:

A. Yes sir, it did impede the flow of traffic; directly 

behind this group of paraders was a school bus. It was 
traveling south. There was a Mississippi Power & Light truck 
traveling north. Both had to stop. The school bus was fol­
lowing slowly behind the group and after they were stopped 
there at Ridgeway and Livingston Road, I inquired of the 
driver if he was part of the parade. He said, no he was just

trying to get by. We made arrangements for him to turn to the



J . L Ray, Dir 1519 .

east on Ridgeway Street and let him get on by.
Q. Do you have any record as to the number of parties 

arrested that day?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How many people were arrested?
A. Ninety-four.
Q. Do you have any record as to a breakdown between 

adults and juveniles arrested on that day?
A. Out of the ninety-four, sixteen were adults.
Q. When you subtract that, that leaves seventy-eight 

juveniles, does it not?
A. That’s correct, sir.
Q. Now these parties, after they were arrested were, —  

what next did you do, if anything?
A. After they were arrested, they were loaded into 

transportation that had been furnished and transported to the 
temporary jail facility at the fair grounds.

Q. Was there, -- what force, if any, was used on the 

arrest of these parties?
MRS. MORRIS:

Your Honor, I object to the form of these questions

THE COURT:

Overruled.
THE WITNESS:

A. No force was used. They all got into the wagon



J . L. Ray, Dir 1520 .

themselves.
Q. They obeyed your command?
A. They did, yes sir.
Q,. Now, you said that you were familiar with Pascagoula 

Street in the City of Jacksop?

A. Tes, I am.
Q. Would you briefly describe that street, please?
A. Pascagoula Street intersects with Poindexter Street. 

Pascagoula Street is a very narrow street. It has pavement, I 
would say, of about fifteen feet wide. It has a portion on 
either side which is gravel that is used as a sidewalk. It 
runs east and west.. Pnindexter Street is about twenty feet 
wide and it runs north and south and it has a sidewalk on one 
side of the street. Thatts on the east side of the street.

Q. Now, Chief Ray, were you on duty on June 1, 1963?
*. •

A . I was.
Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform?

A . I wa s .
Q. Did you have occasion to be in the vicinity of 

Pascagoula and Poindexter Streets in the City of Jackson on 
that day?

A. I did.

Q̂. Would you describe what, if anything, occurred while 
you were there?

A. Yes sir, we had received information that a group was



J . L. Ray, Dir 1521.

going to parade. I received this by police radio. I went to 
the intersection of Lynch and Terry Road and had a detail of 
police officers with me, so this group did form coming out of 
the Masonic Temple which is located on Lynch Street and they 
started marching east on Lynch street. When they reached the 
intersection of Poindexter Street, they could see the police 

detail at Terry Road and Lynch, so they turned —

MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, we object to that and ask that it be 

stricken. As to what who could see, the witness has no know­

ledge of that 
THE COURT:

I’ll overrule the objection.
THE WITNESS:

A. They turned then north on Poindexter Street and I was 
informed by police radio that they had turned back east on 

Pascagoula Street.
So we left this intersection of Lynch and Terry Road 

and went to Minerva and came across a walk there that is built 
for pedestrians; came in behind this group of marchers, they 
were at that time on Pascagoula Street. Pascagoula Street dead­
ends -down there and when they saw us approaching them, they did 
a to-the-rear march, started marching back west on Pascagoula. 
Using this portable loud speaker, I said, "This is a police 

order, stop," so they did stop. Then I inquired if any of them



J . L. Ray, Dir 1522 .

had a permit to parade and all in unison, they shouted nNo 
I then told those who would disperse and move on peacefully 
that they would be allowed to do so. I guess about fifteen, 
maybe, did disperse and those who remained in formation, com­
pletely blocking the street, there was no room for any traffic 
to move at all, they were placed under arrest for parading 
without a permit.

Q. Now, describe that formation for me, please.
A. Well, they were in a column of about five and they 

were marching, as I have already described, first they were 
marching east on --

Q. I understand where they were marching, but at the 
point that you stopped them, the point I am talking about, 
just tell me how they were marching right prior to your 
stopping them.

A. They were marching in columns of five and they were 
marching west and completely taking up the paved portion of 

Pascagoula Street.
Q. Now, do you have any record with you to indicate how 

many parties were arrested at that time?
A. Ninety-two arrested.
Q. Do you have any record that would indicate how many 

adults and how many juveniles were in the group?
A. Of this ninety-two, thirteen were adults.

Q. By subtraction, that would leave seventy-nine



J . L . Ray, Dir 1523

juveniles, is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, after you arrested the parties, placed them 

under arrest what, if anything, did you do next?
A. Using the transportation that was furnished, they 

were transported to the temporary jail facility at the fair 
ground.

Q. Chief Ray, you testified that you were familiar with 
the streets in the City of Jackson known as Rose Street and 
Deer Park Street, is that correct?

A. That is correct.
Q. Are these streets anywhere near each other?
A. They intersect.
Q. -I see. -Would you describe those streets, —  the 

location of that intersection?
A. Rose Street is a very narrow street. It begins at 

Capitol Street, —  West Capitol Street and extends from West 
Capitol Street south to Lynch Street, and I would say it is 

about twenty feet in width. Deer Park Street is an even, —

Q. Did you say that Rose Street has sidewalks or not?

A. It does have sidewalks.
Q. Does it have them on both sides, or one side or —
A. It has sidewalks on both sides. Deer Park Street is 

also very narrow. It is a paved street and east of Rose

Street Deer Park Street does not have sidewalks; west of Rose



J . L. Ray, Dir 1524 .

Street it 
north and

Q.
A.

Q.
A.

Q.
and Deer

does have sidewalks. It 
south.

I see. Now, were you on 
I was.
Were you dressed in your 
I was.
Did you have occasion to 

Park Streets on that date?

runs east and west and Rose

duty on June 13, 1963?

police uniform?

be in the vicinity of Rose

A. I did.
Q. What, if anything, occurred when you were at that 

location at that time?
A. Mr. Nichols, 1*11 have to start back a little before 

I arrived at that intersection. At the Farish Street Baptist 
Church there was quite a number of out of town photographers 
and newspaper men. They were gathered in front of this church 
and it was pretty evident that something unusual was going to 

happen because of the number of newspaper men and photographers, 
So I observed from the intersection of Minerva and Pearl Street, 
•They were at the Pearl Street AME Methodist Church, which is 
located on Pearl Street just east of Rose Street. Shortly 
after noon they flocked out of this church, getting into Pearl 
Street and they started marching east on Pearl Street and I was 
informed that they had turned onto Rose Street, —  north on 

Rose Street. I dispatched for a detail of men to meet me at 

the intersection of Rose and Deer Park Street.



J . L. Ray, Dir 1525.

When I arrived there the beginning of this parade was 
about at Banks Street, which is a very short block away from 
Rose and Deer Park Street. They were in columns of threes 
marching right down the center of Rose Street, making it 
impossible for traffic to use Rose Street at all. There was 
a group that followed this parade using the sidewalks; had 
ganged up on the -parches -of these houses along Rose Street.
When this parade reached the intersection of Rose and Deer 
Park, we had formed a skirmish line across Rose Street and 
using this portable loud speaker, I went through the same pro­
cedure that I have already described on these other parades 
and, over on the porch at 608 Rose Street, the porch was just 
packed, just full of people; they were singing, shouting, 
hollering and chanting and after we made the arrests all of 

that group had flags.
They were encouraging the group out in the street to 

defy law and order by telling them to hold onto the flags, 
donit give up the flags and they did hold to the flags, but 
that was the only way that they did resist. We had no trouble 
at all with the paraders; after we got the flags they obeyed 
the orders, but our trouble there was on the porch of 608 Rose 
Street. That group was very disorderly; they were shouting 
remarks to the police, encouraging this group we had arrested 
so I approached this group on the porch and told them that they 

were going to have to quieten down, they were disturbing the



J . L . Ray, Dir 1526 .

whole neighborhood and if they did not I was going to have to 
arrest them for disturbing the peace.

Q. Now, Chief, how did you speak to that group of people?
A. Using a portable loud speaker.
Q. This portable loud speaker that you keep referring to, 

is this something that magnifies your voice?
A. It is an amplifier, yes sir, operated by batteries.
Q. And it is possible for parties some distance away to

hear?
A . Yes sir .
Q. All right, sir, go on.
A. They kept shouting and singing and the more I said 

the louder they would get, so after about the third time to 
approach this porch and tell these people, I told them they 
were under arrest because the entire group was shouting and 
singing and I told the police officer in the detail to arrest 
them. Some of them got on the porch and they stampeded, and 
even took over this person’s house; went inside and the officers 
were trying to block the doorway. They would just push by the 
officers any way they could get. It was a very disorderly and 

defiant group of people.
Q. Do you know Ralph Edwin King?
A . I do .

Q. Did you know him on that date?

A. I did



J . L. Ray, Dir 1527 .

Q. Did you see him on that date?
A. I did.
Q. And where did you see him?
A. He was on the porch, he was a part of this disorderly

group.
Q. That was at what street number?
A. 608 Rose Street.
Q. You saw King on the porch at 608 Rose Street?

A. I did.
Q. Now, do you know John Salter?
A. I do know him.
Q. Did you know him on that date?

A. I did.
0. Did you see him on that date?
A. I did.
Q. Where did you see him?
A. On the porch at 608, he was a part of the disorderly

group.
Q. You stated that this gathering on the porch was 

yelling encouragement to the group that you had arrested.

A . That’s right .
Q. Did they address any remarks to anyone else?
A. Yes, they were hollering at the group to hold onto 

your flags, dontt give them your flags.
Q. Did they address any remarks to the police?



J . L . Ray, D i r . 1528 .

A . Y e s .

Q. What type of remarks were they?
A. “You injured this girl, you injured this girl,” and 

it seemed to be that one girl that lived in that house was 

injured. In my opinion, it was caused when this group stam­

peded and took over the house.

MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I ask that that be stricken since the 

witness doesn’t know what it was caused by.
THE COURT:

Yes, you can’t give your opinion. Itll sustain the 
objection.as to the opinion.

MR. NICHOLS:
Q. With reference to the injuring of any party on that 

porchj this girl that you referred to, did you see her?
A. I did not, I did not see her.
Q. All right, sir. Now, with regards to the parties 

that you arrested for parading that day and the parties you 
arrested for the other charge, disturbing the peace —

A. Disturbing the peace.
Q. What, if anything, did you do with them after you 

arrested them?
A. They were transported to the temporary jail facility 

at the fair ground.
Q. Now, you stated you saw John Salter on this porch



J. L . Ray, Dir 1529.

there at the house?
A. That*s correct.
Q,. Did you have occasion to see him anytime later in the

day?
A. I saw him, yes sir, I did.
Q. All right, would you state the circumstances?
A. Officer Blakeney had jumped on this porch and he was 

trying to keep the crowd from crowding into this house. He had 
John Salter and Reverend King in custody and at that time he 
was having a tussle with the two of them. Finally, I saw them 

on the ground.
Q. Saw who on the ground?
A. Officer Blakeney and John Salter. Then they got up 

and was moving, as I recall, moving toward the sidewalk of 
Rose Street, continuously tussling. He was resisting arrest 
and one of the officers, using his night stick, hit John 
Salter on the head. That conquered him.

Q. I see. Did you take any action as a result of Mr. 

Salter being hit on the head?
A. Yes sir, I told two officers to take him to the 

University Hospital to see if he needed medical attention.

Q. And was that done?

A . Yes sir, it was.
Q. Now, you testified that you know of a street called 

Dalton Street here in Jackson, is that correct?



J . L. Ray, Dir 1530

A . I do .
Q. Would you briefly describe that street as to its 

location, width, and so forth?
A. Dalton Street is about thirty feet in width, runs 

north and south and it is in the southern part of the city. 
It does not have sidewalks.

Q. Approximately how wide is it?
A. About thirty feet, I would estimate.
Q. Is it paved or unpaved?
A. It is a blacktopped paved street .

Q. And there are no sidewalks or any walking area there?

A. Yes sir, but a lot of the yards do take up the part

that ±_s used, —  they use a portion of the street a s a side-

walk.
Q. A party walking on Dalton Street then has to walk

where?
A. They walk along the curb line of Dalton Street.
Cj. Now, state whether or not you were on duty on June 7,

1963?
A . I was.
Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform?

A . I was.
Q. State whether or not you had occasion to be in the 

vicinity of Dalton Street in Jackson, Mississippi, on that date?

A I did



J . L . Ray, Dir 1531 .

Q. All right, sir. What, if anything, occurred while 
you were on Dalton Street at that time?

A. About 4:30 P.M. I received a call that there was 
about to be a riot at Battlefield Park and to proceed to that 
location. I dispatched for police officers to meet me there 
at Battlefield Park. When I arrived there were two groups of 
people, one was over in the playground area near the swimming 
pool. There was another group moving toward that direction 
and they said, uLet us have, let us have them," so I immediately
saw the danger of a riot and cleared the entire Park, told
everybody to leave the Park and everybody obeyed my order.

One group left walking west on Porter Street.
Porter Street runs alongside the Battlefield Park. They walked 
there across Terry Road and they stopped at Jackson Boulevard 
and, I believe the name of that little street is Handy Street. 
They were ganged up out into the street, blocking the street
and so at that time they were ordered to disperse and to move
on up the street. They did and when they reached the intersec­
tion of Jackson Boulevard and Dalton Street they turned north 
on Dalton Street, but they were standing out JLn the street, the 

portion used by vehicular traffic.
I rode up beside this group and told them that they 

were going to have to walk along the curb line, so they immedi­
ately moved over to the curb line and started walking along the 
curb line, but after they had walked about a block they again



J . L. Ray, D i r . 1532 .

got out into the street and was blocking the portion of the 
street that was used by vehicular traffic. At that time they 
were walking along the east curb line of Dalton Street. After 
they had marched about two blocks, or walked about two blocks 
there, they crossed the street, very slowly, then they started
walking along the west curb line and they partially blocked the

t o
street again and I told them they were going to hav^ walk, —  

and I said, "I’m telling you my last time you are going to have 
to walk along the curb, you can’t block this street.” Well, 
they got up to the 1400 block of Dalton Street, which is about 
half way between Barrett and Florence Street and they stopped 
and gang_ed up out into the street extending about fifteen feet 
into the street,

I felt that I had gone far enough and at that point
I arrest ed them for obstructing the street .

Q. Do you have any record to indicat e how many you
arrest ed on that date?

A. I do.

Q. All right sir, how many were arrested?
A. There was twenty-one arrested.

Q. Does your record indicate how many were adults,
if there were any juveniles?

A. There were some juveniles, but my information notes, 
I don’t have that.

Q. All right. Now, I am going to ask you to go back to



J . L . Ray, Dir 1533 .

the Rose and Peer Park incident and ask if yop have any record 
that would indicate how many parties were arrested on that date?

A. Eighty-four arrested and thirty-nine of that eighty-

four were adult s .

Q. And the balance would be juveniles, is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. That would be approximately forty-five. Now, you have
testified that you are familiar with Farish Street and that you, 
—  and you have described Farish Street; 1*11 ask you whether or 

not you were on duty on June 15, 1963?

A. June the 15th, yes sir, I was.

Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform?

A. I was.

Q. 1*11 ask you whether or not you knew by name and sight

the late Medgar Evers?
A. I did.
Q. And, now, I think the record already indicates that 

June 15th was the day of the funeral of Medgar Evers, is that

correct ?
A. That is correct .

Q. Now, what, if anything, did you have to do with the

funeral procession?
A. I followed the funeral procession, —  I followed 

along the line and, of course, the men under my supervision

were placed along the route that this funeral procession was



J * L. Ray, Dir 1534 .

to follow to keep anybody from butting into it or interfering 
with the funeral procession at all.

Q. Chief, would you briefly describe this procession as 
to the route it took; the volume of people in it and so forth?

A. This funeral started at the Masonic Temple located on 
Lynch Street, which is the 1000 block of Lynch Street. They 
proceeded east on Lynch Street —  and you make a turn there to 
kindly r- northeast and then you go ahead, and then it is known 

as Terry Road. Then Terry Road, without interruption, goes in­
to Pascagoula Street. At Pascagoula Street they continued 
marching east on Pascagoula Street until they reached the inter­
section of Pascagoula and Farish Street; they turned north on 
Farish Street, crossing the main streets, Pearl, Capitol, Amite, 
and Griffith Street, to a funeral home there, Frazier and 

Collins Funeral Home.
We had police officers, I would estimate a hundred, 

scattered throughout this route to make it safe, and to control 
traffic and make it a non-hazard and not interfere with the 
funeral procession. Now, at the beginning of this procession 

there was several cars and an ambulance; it was an unusual 
thing, and then about five thousand people walking and marching. 

They had a permit for this occasion.
Q. Now, were you able to observe whether or not this was 

a reverent and orderly group or not?

A. At that time, it was, yes sir.



J . L. Ray, Dir 1535 .

Q. And, you said you followed the parade?
A. I did.
Q. Were you afoot?
A. No sir, I was in an automobile and I tailed the parade, 

what we call tailing the —
Q. Bringing up the rear?
A. Thatts right, that’s correct.
Q. Now, did you start, —  when you started your car did 

your route follow the same route as the marchers?
A. It did.
Q. So then I presume you terminated your ride at the 

funeral home, is that correct?

A. That’s correct.
Q. Now, you stated that the police were stationed along 

the route to keep traffic from interfering with the line of 

march, is that correct?
A. That’s correct, yes sir.
Q. Was there any traffic, that is either pedestrian or 

vehicular traffic, allowed to intersect that procession at any 

point?
A. No sir.
Q.. Now, what, if anything, happened when you got to the 

funeral home, Chief?
A. I drove by the funeral home and I turned; they were 

going through I imagine, —  and they dispersed —  they were



J . L . Ray, D i r . 1536 .

dispersing very peacefully it seemed like, so I proceeded on 
north on Farish and turned on Monument Street, then turned back 
south on Mill Street. Just about that time I received informa­
tion that a group was rioting, moving south on Farish Street.

I immediately proceeded to Capitol and Farish Street and 

ordered those men who had been stationed along this route to 
meet me there. When I arrived at the intersection of Farish and 
Capitol Street, it looked like about a thousand people running, 

and shouting, and hollering. It was a very disorderly thing.

Using this portable loud speaker, I said a permit 
was issued for this and it was supposed to be an honorable 

thing — ,#¥qu are supposed to be honoring, the dead and what you 
are doing is very dishonorable.” They began to holler “Shoot 
us, shoot us, shoot us.” They said, ”You killed him, shoot us, 
shoot us, shoot us,” and about that time, there wasn’t but about 

six police officers there, I continued to try to control the 
groupjby talking to them, by telling them that what they were 

doing was very dishonorable.

Q. Let me interrupt you. Whery were these people standing 
at the time you were talking to them?

A. They were in the center of Farish Street, all up and 

down the street, just completely taking over the sidewalk and 

the street and, in a little while, quite a number of police 

officers did get there and before they got there, they started 

throwing rocks, and bottles, and bricks from the alleys and in



J . L. Ray, Dir 1537 .

buildings. Several police officers were hit by them and it 

looked like we were going to lose control of the crowd. It 

wail a very toaichy situation^ and we couldn’t understand what 

had caused it.
I looked up into the windows on the second floor on 

the west side of Farish Street, —  on the second floor window, 
and leaning out these windows, I could see John Salter and King, 
who seemed to be shouting encouraging remarks to them. They 
were very disorderly and we got this formation and we started 
—  in this -skirmisli line - started moving toward them. They 

were throwing rocks and bricks at us at that time.

Q. Were the police throwing any rocks and bricks back

them?
A. No sir .

Q. Yes sir, go on.

A. And, as we would make contact with this group that

would not move, we would arrest them. Every time we would

arrest one, they would resist, kick, stomp; I don’t know, they 
just acted like wild people. I believe that day we arrested 
around twenty-two, fourteen police officers were injured, one 

police officer was hit on the head —  helmet —  with a brick 

and he was hospitalized, and that was about as disorderly a 

group as I have ever seen.

Q. Now, as you moved these parties back you would arrest 

the group that would not move back?



J . L • Ray, Dir 1538 .

A. That is correct. Let me go a little further. We got 

on, we backed them on up to past the funeral home and we held 
our skirmish line, not wanting to interfere with those who were 

trying to honor the dead. We held our skirmish line across 

there and they were about half a block from us and they were
icontinuously throwing bottles, but the only way, — « they 

couldn*t reach us from the distance that they were throwing 

them, but they hit in front of us and the glass would splatter 

and hit you .
Mr. John Doar, with the Justice Department, I recog­

nized him. I called his attention to this group. I told him, 
”Th$;s is the kind of people we have to deal with and you seev'V:
what they are doing.”

MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I would object to any conversation.

THE COURT:
Overruled.

THE WITNESS:

A. I said, 

and what they are 

this announcement 

group and, by the 

that this was Mr. 
down into the gro

”They are supposed to be honoring the 

doing is very dishonorable.” After ma 

several times, Mr. Doar went down to t 

way, they did throw at him, and I anno 

Doar with the Justice Department. He 

up and he tried to quiet them down; we

dead

king

he

unc ed

went

con­

tacted several other leaders of these groups and one of them



J . L. Ray, D i r . 1539 .

was Attorney Young. He did go down and try to talk to them, 
and finally Mr. Doar came to me and he says, "I believe we have 
got them quiet and I think if you will pull your officers out 
of here everything will be over with.11 I accepted his recom­
mendation. We moved out of there and the only other trouble we 

had was when the water truck went down to clear up all the 

glass, and rocks, and bottles. They did have some trouble with 

them throwing at them.
Q. Now, were any Negro persons arrested that day?

A. Yes sir.
Q. Were any white people arrested that day?

A . Yes sir .
Q. Now, Chief, state to the Court whether you were on 

duty on May 30, 1963?
A. Yes sir, I was on duty.
Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform?

A. Yes sir.
Q. You stated you know Ralph Edwin King by sight, is 

that correct?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.
you know

I do.

Did you know him by 

I did.
You stated that you 

him by sight on that

sight on that date?

know John Salter by sight, 

day?

Did

A I did



J . L. Ray, D i r . 1540 .

Q-. Do you know one Joan Trumpower?

A. I do.
Q. Did you know her by sight on that date?

A. I did.
Q. Did you have occasion to see all or anyone of those 

persons on May 30, 1963?

A. I did.
Q. Where did you see them?
A. In front of the Federal Building, this building.
Q. JTJiat’s the Federal Building in Jackson, Mississippi?

A. That*s correct.
Q.. Commonly known as the Post Office?

A. Thatts correct, yes sir.
Q. All right, sir, relate the circumstances under which 

you saw these people at the Post Office on that date?
A. I was at Headquarters and had received information that 

there was quite a gathering around the Post Office and to pro­

ceed to that location. I arrived here, I imagine it was about 

4s30, and standing on the second level in front of the building 

facing, they were facing north, was fourteen persons, lined 

along the second level of the steps there and there was about a 

thousand people gathered in and around this building, this Post 
Office building, some of them were on the north side on Capitol 

Street and some on the south side, some behind these people and 

they were making such remarks and seemed to be in a very ugly



J . L. Ray, Dir. 1541 .

mood; that "They are not praying, they don*t know how to pray; 
they are not trying to do anything but cause trouble," "If
youTll let us handle them, wetll handle them," and I could see 
that there was an immediate danger there and I felt it necessary 

to take some action and do it quickly to avoid a riot.

They were directing their remarks to this group that 

had gathered there on the steps, so I walked up to this group 
and told them that they were blocking the entrance to this 
building and that their presence there was causing a breach of 

the peace. I ordered them to leave and they just kept standing 

there. Then I asked them if they understood my order and some 
indicated they did, and I asked if they were going to obey the 

order. After going through this the second time and none of 

them obeying the order, they were arjiesJt-ed. f o r breach of the 

peace.
After they were arrested, all of them moved to the 

paddy wagon except Reverend King. When he was told that he was 

under arrest, he immediately fell to his knees and it was neces­

sary to carry him and place him in the wagon.
Q. Now, Chief Ray, would you state whether or not you 

were on duty on May 29, 1963?

A. Yes sir, I was.
Q. Do you remember whether or not you were wearing your 

police uniform on that day?

A . I was



J . L. Ray, Dir 1542 .

Q. Do you know Doris Erskine?
A. Ido.
Q. Did you know her on May 29, 1963?
A. I did not know her by sight at that time, no sir.

Q. Did you later learn her identity?

A. I did.
Q. Did you have occasion to see Doris Erskine on May 29,

1963?
A. I did.
Q. Would you relate the circumstances under which you saw 

her on that date?
A. Yes sir, I was in front of H. L. Green’s, which is on 

Capitol Street —  it’s on the north side of Capitol Street.
^  Now, let me Interrupt you here, please sir. We have 

mentioned Capitol Street many times. For the sake of the record, 

would you briefly describe Capitol Street?
A. Capitol Street is the main street in the City of 

Jackson. It begins at the east end, I am starting at the 

east end —

THE COURT:
Let’s take about a fifteen minute recess.

(After a fifteen minute recess, the proceedings continued 

as follows:)
MR. NICHOLS:

q . I believe you were describing Capitol Street, do you



J . L . Ray, D i r . 1543 •

remember where you were?
A. Yes sir. Starting at the east end of Capitol Street, 

or the Old Capitol, traveling west, the first five blocks is 

known as East Capitol Street until you reach Farish Street, and 

that is all downtown business section. The next three blocks 
is known as West Capitol; that’s also downtown business section 
until you reach Gallatin Street; that’s eight blocks of down­
town business section. Then Capitol Street extends west about 
four miles until you reach the overhead bridge and it changes in­
to Clinton Boulevard. It is the main street in the City of 

Jackson. The downtown section is about sixty feet wide; has wide 

sidewalks on each side in the business section.
Q. Now, do you know of your own knowledge, transposing

your figure of blocks into mileage, how far it is from the Old 
Capitol on the east to Gallatin Street on the west?

A. Eight tenths of a mile.
Q. Now, to get back to the matter of Doris Erskine, on

5_29-63, before I interrupted you you had started to state that

you were in front of a store by the name of H. L. Green.
A. Yes sir, H. L. Green’s is on the north side of Capitol 

Street in the downtown business section. It’s in the 200 block 

of East Capitol, and I was standing in front of H. L. Green’s 

when I was approached and told that Mr. Gus Primos, manager of 

Primos No. 1, wanted us in his place immediately.

Q. What type of place is —



J . L . Ray, Dir 1544 .

MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to what anybody told him and ask 

that it be stricken.
THE COURT:

Overruled.
MR. NICHOLS:

Q. Is Primos No. 1 a place of business?
A. Yes sir, it’s a place of business, it’s a private place, 

it is a restaurant.
Q. Now, in relation to H. L. Green’s, what is the location 

of Primo s No. 1?

A. It’s about, just guessing, it’s about six or eight 
doors down, or it is west of Primos on the same side of the 
street. Primos is also on the south side of Capitol Street in 

the 200 block of East Capitol.

Q. Primos is on which side of Capitol Street?

A. North side.

Q. All right, sir, when you received this information 

what, if anything, did you do?
A. I walked up to the entrance of Primos Restaurant and 

he summoned me in, Mr. Gus Primos.
Q. Bid you enter the restaurant?

A. I did.
Q. What, if anything, took place when you were there?

A. In the presence of Doris Erskine and others, he said,



"I have ordered these people to leave my place of business and 

they will not leave.”
MRS. MORRIS:

Your Honor, I will object to any conversation that 
doesntt have to do with any of the parties in this lawsuit. It 
i s!, hear say.
THE COURT:

Ifll overrule the objection, I donTt think so.
THE WITNESS:

A. And he ordered them to leave again and they just stood 

there. So at that point I asked them if they understood the 

manager of this establishment and they indicated they did. I 
said, "Are you going to obey it?" They just stood there. I 

then ordered them to leave and asked them if they understood my 
order. They indicated they did. I said, "Are you going to 
obey?" They did not and at that time I arrested them for tres- 

pa s sing.
Q. Prior to being summonsed to the restaurant by the 

owner, had you been in it on that date?

A. No sir.

Q. I believe you stated this is a privately owned busi­

ness.

A . Yes sir.
Q. Now, with reference to any police officer that might

J. L. Ray, Dir. 1545 .

have been on the outside on the street, do you have policemen



J . L. Ray, Dir 1546 .

on this street in Jackson?
A. Yes sir
Q. Were there police on the street on that day?

A. Yes sir .
Q. In relation to the normal number that you keep on the 

street, was the number of police on the street on that day 

larger or smaller than your normal group?
A. Larger.
Q. Were there any particular reasons for it?
A. Yes sir. Traffic that day had been unusually heavy. 

There was quite a number of unfamiliar faces in town and we had 

extra traffic officers up and down the street.
Q.. Chief Ray, I believe you, —  I donTt know whether you 

did or not, but I am going to ask you this question. Do you 

know whether or not there is a school in the City of Jackson 

known as Lanier High School?

A. Yes sir.
Q.. Do you know the location of it?

A . I do .
Q., Would you briefly tell me where it is located?
A. Thatts in the northwest part of the city on the south­

west corner of Maple Street and Whitfield Mill Road.
Q. Is it small, or medium-size, or a large school?

A.- It's a large school, high school.

Q. Now, were you on duty on May 30, 1963?



J « L. Ray, Dir 1547 .

A . I was.

Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform on that day?
A . I was.
Q. Did you have occasion to be in the vicinity of Lanier 

High School in Jackson, Mississippi, on May 30, 1963?
A. I did.

Q. All right, sir, what, if 

visit to Lanier High School on that 

A. I had received informatio 

orderly group on the campus of Lani 
field Mill Road and Maple Street . 

and I would estimate at least five 

students on the campus and on the s 
shouting —

anything, occurred on your 

dat e?

n that there was quite a dis- 
er High School facing Whit- 

I proceeded to that location 

hundred what appeared to be 

idewalks there. They were

Q. What time of day was this?

A. About noon.

Q. About noon?
A. Yes sir. They were shouting and singing; there were 

newspapermen and photographers there and it seemed to be that 

they were putting on some kind of show for them. They would 

even get on cars, some of them would stand up on cars and make 
speeches. I contacted Professor Buckley who is the Professor 

of that school, hoping that they could handle the situation.

So the first thing that I did, I summonsed Headquarters and

told them to block off the area and keep everybody out of that



J . L. Ray, D i r . 1548 .

area. They were singing, shouting, chanting and causing quite 
a disturbance. I felt since it was a school that we would let 

the officials of the school try to handle the situation, and it 

seemed that they could not. Then a little later as these people 
would leave, we would not let them come back to the school. We 

would send them on home.
Q. These are the students you are talking about?
A. That’s right. Then about, I’d guess about 12:30, 

this group started throwing bottles and rocks at the police 
officers. So seeing that a riot was developing, I called for 

extra help and we immediately tried to move this group back 

into the school building.
Q. Excuse me, was this on a normal school day?

A. It was, sir.
Q. And during schiool hours?
A. It wa_s. An-d., -w-e had quite a bit of trouble moving 

them in, but we finally succeeded in getting most of them into 

the school. Three police officers were injured that day. And, 

Lieutenant Jones, he was around near the rear of the building 
at what is known as the workshop of Lanier High School, they 

were throwing planks, bricks, anything they could get their 

hands on, toward Lieutenant Jones and three other officers so 

Lieutenant Jones went after one of the fellows that had been 

throwing at him. They pulled the door down on him inside the 

shop, trapping him inside, and all of us had our hands so full



J . L . R a y , D i r . 1549 .

we couldn’t hardly get to him, and it appeared that some of the 

teachers assisted him in getting out of there, and he came out 
with one that had been throwing, but he got away. I don’t 

believe we arrested but three that day.

Q. Now, you stated that you blocked off the area. Was 
that around the school?

A. Yes sir, within a block or two-block area. It was 
handled by Chief Armstrong then who is in charge of traffic.

Q. If a student wanted to go home, leave this group and 
go home, you allowed him to do that?

A. Yes sir, we worked very closely with Professor Buckley 

after we had gotten them into the school, then he let them out 

anyway that he saw fit and we assisted him in any way that we 

could.

to go

that

here

agent

Q. Now, what about the newspapermen, were they allowed

in there?

A. No sir, nobody but FBI agents and police officers.

Q. There were FBI agent s there?

A. Yes sir, they were present in all of these places

we have had trouble.
Q. You mean each one of these that you have reiterated 

in your direct testimony that you could recognize FBI 

s as being present and witnessing these arrests?

A . Yes sir .

MR. BELL:



J . L . Ray, D i r . 1550 .

Your Honor, we are going to object to all of this 
line of testimony. Plaintiffs didn’t put on any testimony
concerning this Lanier High School incident as a part of any 

program, demonstrations, or anything, and that is completely 
irrelevant to any ;issues.in this case.
THE COURT:

Overruled.
MR. BELL:

If he is going to do this, we can put on any number 
of disturbances at schools, hospitals, and — »>
THE COURT:

Well, this seems to be about the same time. I’ll 

overrule the objection. What was the FBI doing on this case?
THE WITNESS:

They were just observing sirl I imagine they had 

received orders to do that.

MRS. MORRIS:
I would like that stricken as it is what he imagines.

THE COURT:

Yes, tell us what you know please.

THE WITNESS:
Yes sir, they were present —

THE COURT:

Did they try to help you in any way?

THE WITNESS:



J . L . Ray, Dir . 1551 .

No sir, I can’t say that.
THE COURT:

All right.

MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Chief Ray, do you know the location of a store by the 

name of F. W. Woolworth Company here in Jackson?
A. Ido.
Q. Would you state where that is located, please sir?
A. F. W. Woolworth is in the one hundred block of East 

Capitol. It is on the north side of the street about half way 

in the block between Farish and Lamar Streets.
Q. Are you familiar with that store?

A, I am.
Q. Could you describe the physical outlay of that store?

A. It faces south. It has four double-door entrances and 

it is about 125 feet from wall to wall and about 125 to 150 feet 
in depth. It has rear doors. Inside the store they have coun­

ters running east and west and north and south and they are 

piled high with merchandise.
Q.. Now the doors you described, the main doors in front, 

of what material are they constructed?

A. They are glass, double doors.

Q. Does the store have any type of windows?

A. Glass windows.

Q. Were you on duty on May 28, 1963?



J . L . Ray, i)ir . 1552 .

A . Yes sir, I was.
Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform on that day?

A . I was.
Q. Bid you have occasion to be in the vicinity of F. W. 

Woolworth Company on that date?

A. I did.
Q. All right, sir, what, if anything, occurred at the 

time you were at that particular store on that date?

A. We had received information that there was trouble at 
the F. W. Woolworth store so I went to the F. W. Woolworth Com­
pany and was in front of the building with three other police 

officers. I contacted the manager, I believe his name is Mr. 

Braun; inquired of him as to what was the trouble. He informed 

us that everything was under control. At that time, I told him 

that we were available to assist him in any way possible; we 

would be there when he needed us. He thanked us and went back 

inside.
Q. At that time did he request your help?

A . He did not.
Q. Now, did anything else occur?
A. We remained in front of the store and I sent a plain- 

clothed officer inside since I had been informed that there was 
trouble inside. I told him to observe and see what was taking 

place.

Q. What was that officers name, Chief?



J . L . Ray, D i r . 1553 .

A . J . L . Black.
Q. All right .

A. After he had been in there a little while he said that 

the people were a little rowdy and they were jeering at a group 
that was at the lunch counter. I told him to go and get the 

manager, I wanted to talk to him again and I did talk to Mr. 
Braun and I told him that I understood they were a little rowdy. 
He said, "They are a little noisy, but everything seems to be 
under control." I said, "Bo you need our assistance?" He said, 
"No, not at this time."

MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I want to object to all of the testimony 

that has to do with'conversation. Would you note it as a con­

tinuing objection?
THE COURT:

Yes, you may have a continuing objection to conversa­

tions at this time, which I think are pertinent to this inquiry 

and the objection is overruled.

MR. NICHOLS:
Q. That was the second time you talked to the manager, 

is that correct?
A. That is correct. Mr. Black, officer Black, continued 

to stay inside and observe. Shortly, he came out with two 

people he had arrested. I asked him what the trouble was and 

he said they were fighting.



J . L . Ray, D i r . 1554 .

Q. Do you happen to know the names of those two people? 

A . I do .
Q. Who were they?

A. Memphis Norman and Bennie Oliver.

Q. Do you know the race of Memphis Norman?

A. He is colored.
Q. And the race of Bennie Oliver?
A. He is white.
Q. All right, go on please.

A. He turned those two over to the officers out there 
with me. They transported them to the main jail facility.

Then shortly after that he arrested another one. I don’t remem­

ber his name, but --
Q. Do you remember his race?

A . He was whit e.
Q . All right .
A. It seemed that he had grabbed some girl off of a 

stool in Woolworth Company and proceeded to throw her out of 

the store. I then, again, contacted Mr. Braun; told him that 

it seemed there was a lot of trouble in there and it looked as 

though he needed our assistance. He said, "Well, I think it 

has quietened down some other than a lot of jeering and talking," 

and he said, "I have a call into the main office in New York 

and as soon as I hear from them, I’ll let you know."

The next I heard from Mr. Braun was he told me he



J . L . Ray, Dir 1555 .

was closing the store. He did close the store, locked the door 
and all the people came out.

Let me go back just a little bit. In the meantime,
I was contacted by Dr. Beittel and Mercedes Wright.

Q. Did you know them at the time?
A. I did.
Q. Do you know by whom Dr. Beittel was employed, for 

example?
A. President of Tougaloo College.
Q. Do you know who Mercedes Wright was?
A. A youth worker with the NAACP from Atlanta, yes.

Q. You were contacted by these two parties?
A. That is correct. Dr. Beittel said, “There is trouble 

inside and you need to be in there." I said, "Dr. Beittel, I 
just got through talking with the manager and he said it was 
just a lot of jeering, that everything seemed to be pretty well 
under control; that as soon as he heard from New York hefd let 

me know as to what he wished us to do." I said, "It seems that 

those in there that are causing all the trouble are from 

Tougaloo College and you are President of that College, don*t 

you have some control over them?" At that time he told me that 

school was out and he had no control. And I said, "Well, 1*11 

tell you what you do, you go contact Mr. Braun and tell him that 

if he wants us in there, weTll be glad to go in." I did see him 

later and asked him if he had contacted him and he said, "I did."



J . L. Ray, Dir 1556 .

Q. All right, stop at that point. You say that Mercedes 
Wright, —  did you have any conversation with her?

A . Yes .
Q. What was that?

A. She wanted to know why we didn*t go in there and, as 
I recall, I explained to her that this was a private establish­

ment and the manager was a responsible person and we do not make 

it a practice to interfere with anybodys business unless they 
request us to do so.

I contacted Dr. Beittel again and asked him if he had 
found the manager and he said he did and I asked him what he 

found out and he said the manager told him he was waiting on a 

call from New York.

Q. Now, in your testimony you got up to the point where 

the manager was locking the door. I presume that was the front 
door that he was locking.

A . That* s right .

Q. You were still in front of the store?

A. That is correct.

Q. Outside?

A. That is correct.
Q. All right, sir, go on at that point and tell us what, 

if anything, happened next.

A. It seemed that all the people did come out. Then I 

was contacted by Dr. Beittel and he said, "Those people in there



J . L. Ray, D i r . 1557 .

want to come out, will you protect them?*1

Q. Did you know what people he was talking about?
A. I assumed that he was talking about all those that had 

been causing all the trouble, that were the sit-ins.
Q . All right .
A. I said, "Certainly we will, we will even provide trans­

portation," and I called for the paddy wagon to transport them 

wherever they wanted to go. They came out, we surrounded them, 

and the paddy wagon arrived and they refused to get in the paddy 

wagon. Then Reverend King —
Q. Now, hold on just a moment. At the point they came 

ooit, you said you surrounded them. Was there any particular 

reason why you surrounded them when they came out?
A. No sir, we just got around them in case anybody did 

want to cause them any harm.
Q. Were there other persons there on the outside of the

store?
A. There was people up and down the street, jes sir.

Q. Did you estimate the crowd as to how many were there 

or anything like that?
A. We kept the people moving as best we could. There 

wasn't too many.
Q. Now, you said you called for the paddy wagon. Was it 

your intention at that time to arrest these people?

A. No sir, to assist them to their location, their



J . L . R a y , D i r . 1558 .

destination.
Q. You offered them transportation to where they wanted

to go?

A. That is correct.

Q. And they refused this?
A. That is correct.
Q. How did they get away from the store?

A. Reverend King came in his Rambler station wagon and 
part of them got in the wagon with him. We assisted him in 
getting away from there with these people.

Q. Now, Chief Ray, at the time prior to the manager lock­

ing the doors and while everybody was still in Woolworth Company, 

at the point where you stood was it possible for you to look 

through the store and to see the people at the counter?

A. No sir.
Q. Why could not you do that?

A. The counters are piled high with merchandise and there 

was quite a number of people inside which blocked the view com­

pletely .

this

Q. Have you had occasion to go in 

A . Yes sir.
Q. Did you have occasion to go in 

incident on May 28?
A. Following that incident, I did 

Q. Did you determine the point at

that store recently?

it around the time of

go in the store.

the lunch counter where



parties were seated?
A . Yes sir .

Q. Are you able to state whether or not you could see 
from the point where they were seated to -the outside through 
the window?

A. At one point there you can see partially out the aisle 
provided there are no people in the asile. With any people in 
the aisle you cannot see out at all.

Q. I see. One final question, Chief Ray, have you had 

occasion to examine the records of the Police Department to 

determine a total number of arrests in the demonstration cases 

from approximately May 25 to the end of the summer of 1963?

A . Yes sir .
Q. Do you have that total with you?

A. 1,092.
Q. Thank you, sir .

MR. NICHOLS:
May it please the Court, that is all the direct 

examination.

MRS. MORRIS:
I didn’t get the last —  for all those 1,092.

THE COURT:
May the 25th to the end of the summer.

CROSS EXAMINATION

J. L. Ray, Dir. 1559.

MRS. MORRIS:



J . L . Ray, Cr . 1560 .

Q. What group of the police are you attached to?
A. I am in charge of the Patrol Division, that is the 

three shifts that work the twenty-four hour tour of duty.
Q. You are not in the traffic group then?

A. Not under traffic, no. The men under my supervision 

do assist with traffic.
Q. But who is in control of the traffic group?

A. Deputy Chief Beavers Armstrong.
Q. Now, during these incidents you testified to, you were 

working with the traffic detail, weren’t you?
A. I was working with the traffic detail and the Patrol 

Division, yes.
Q. Now, on May the 3lst in the area of the Farish Street 

Church, how long were you in the area of the Farish Street 

Church before arrests were made?
A. I had been in that area prior to the arrests on 

Livingston Road at 3:30. I returned to that location about 4:00 

o’clock.
Q. But you had been in the Farish Street Church area 

earlier?
A. That is correct.

THE REPORTER:
Excuse me, I didn’t understand the question, you had 

been where?

MRS. MORRIS:



He had been at the Farish Street Church area earlier. 
THE REPORTER:

Thank you.

MRS . MORRIS:
And you came back to the Farish Street Church area.

THE WITNESS:
A. After the Livingston Road arrests —

MRS. MORRIS:
Q. How many people were with you, how many policemen?'.
A. At that time, I would say, at the beginning I would 

say around 50 to 75, including traffic officers.

Q. And where were these 50 to 75 policemen stationed?
A. I would say around 50 or more at the intersection of 

Hamilton and Farish; the others were in the area of the Farish 

Street Baptist Church.
Q. Now, that intersection is about 150 yards from the 

church?

A. About that.
Q. Approximately how many blocks, do you remember?
A. Well, there^ Hobsons Alley and Oakley Street and 

Church Street .
Q. But these are not full blocks?

A. That is correct.
Q. Now, your detail was at that intersection, were there

J. L. Ray, Cr. 1561.

police also at Mill Street?



J . L . Ray, C r . 1562 .

A. At Mill Street?
Q. Yes, if you could say?

A. I don’t know.
Q. You don’t know whether there were any there?

A. Chief Armstrong was-in charge of the detail of traffic 

control. He assigned those men. I do not know.
Q. Now, you were looking toward the church, looking north 

I believe it is on Farish Street?

A. That is correct.

Q. And there were another group of policemen stationed on 

the other side of the church, weren’t there?

A. There was some traffic officers at Farish and Monument 
There were also some at Farish and Church I believe.

Q. So that the Farish Street Church area was surrounded 
by policemen?

A. That is correct.
Q. And they were surrounded by policemen at least a half 

hour before these arrests were made?

A . Yes.
Q. Now, as soon as the group began to leave the church, 

that’s when you formed your line across the street?

A . That is correct .
Q. And, how long were these people on the street before 

you placed them under arrest, before you asked them to stop?

A. Long enough for them to walk from the Farish Street



J . L . Ray, C r . 1563 •

Baptist Church in parade formation to Hamilton Street.

Q. How much time do you think that took?

A. Not long.

Q. Can you give me your best estimate?

A. Le as_ than five minutes, I would say. After they 
started, I would say less than five minutes.

Q„ From the time they exited the church they were 
arrested within about two minutes from the time they hit the 

street, weren’t they?

A. I don’t know, it would be within two to five minutes,

yes .
Q. Now, at the time your police line barricaded the 

area, the first people in this group were meeting, there was a 

similar line to the other side of the church, wasn’t there?
A. Repeat the question?

Q. At the time that you had formed a —  what did you 

call your line?

A. Skirmish line.
Q. Skirmish line across the street, there was a similar 

skirmish line opposite you, wasn’t there? By a group of police 

on the other side.

A. No .

Q. ¥ou don’t recall that?

A. No .
Q. Do you recall being able to see down there to see what



J . L . Ray, C r . 1564 .

the police were doing?

A. That was a traffic detail assigned there, they were -- 
Q. Do you inow what that traffic detail was doing?
A . I do not.

Q. So you were not in a position to say what was going 
on down there?

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, you asked the group to stop and you told some of 
them that, —  you told them that those who wanted to dissemble 
and leave could.

A. My words were "Those who want to disperse and move on 
peacefully, will be allowed to do so."

Q. And, some of the group began to move?

A. Some did disperse.

Q. Where did they begin to move to?

A. They moved on out of that area, some of them went into 

private businesses there.
Q. And some of them went into the streets around the area? 

A . Yes.
Q. And then you placed them under arrest, the remaining

group?

A. Those who remained in parade formation, I did, yes.

Q. And they were arrested for parading without a permit?

A. That is correct.

Q. Some of them, you said, Aegan to move into Hobsons



J . L, Ray, C r . 1565 .

Alley?
A. They stampeded, just like a bunch of wild people, yes.

Q. Now, under the circumstances that existed,
policemen on all sides of them, Hobsons Alley was one of the few 
places that any group could go, wasn’t it?

A. That’s right, they could move into Hobsons Alley, but 
we surrounded that too.

Q. So you had Hobsons Alley under control?

A. At that time I had other officers there, which was the 
Sheriff’s office and the Highway Patrol.

Q. How many of the Sheriff’s officers were there?
A. I would imagine twenty-five and possibly fifty Highway 

Patrolmen by that time had arrived.

Q. So that was a total of over one hundred policemen?
A. That is correct.

Q. And what area were they covering?

A. They came in by Hamilton Street and Hobsons Alley.

Q. Then they were within, let’s say, a three block area, 

weren’t they; these hundred and some odd policemen?

A. That’s correct.

Q. Now, why were a hundred and some odd policemen in that 

area at that time?
A. This was just after the Lanier High School incident

and when those people went wild, went to throwing rocks and 

bottles and, since it is the duty of police officers to preserve



J . L . Ray, C r . 1566 .

the peace, maintain law and order; we didn’t know what this 
group of people would do and it was necessary to have that many
because they resisted and stampeded into Hobsons Alley.

iQ. Well, you didn’t know this before the police were —
A. I did not, but we were trying to be prepared for such 

an incident.
Q. Well, you were prepared to arrest them before they 

left the church, weren't you?

A. We are prepared to arrest anybody that violates the 
law. If they had not violated the law, they would not have been 

arrested .
Q. Well, let’s see if we can’t do it this way, Chief Ray. 

You knew that there were a group of people in the church?

A. That’s correct.
Q. And you were stationed in that area to make sure that 

they didn’t take part in any demonstration?

A. That is not correct.

Q. That’s not?

A. No .
Q. You had a hundred and fifty people there just in case 

something should happen?
A. We were there to preserve the peace, maintain law and

order.
Q. And your idea of preserving the peace, isn’t it sir, 

is to keep these people out of the street or taking part in any



J . L . Ray, C r . 1567 .

demonstration.
A. My idea of preserving the peace is to prevent riots 

and to prevent law violators from violating the law and if they 
do violate the law it is my duty, as a police officer, to pre­
serve the peace, maintain law and order, to arrest them.

Q. And you had anticipated that there would be trouble?
A. I didn’t know, yes, and that is the reason we had that 

many officers there in the event that it did happen.
Q. Now, did the group ever really get a chance to leave 

the church? You said the front of the group came toward you, 

did the back of the group ever get out of the church?
A. Yes. You mean, I don’t understand —  the 400 or more 

in the parade all left the church and moved —
Q. They had left the church?

A. That is correct.
Q. Had they left the church before they were put under 

arrest?

A . Yes .
Q. You had placed them under arrest, now before they were 

put under arrest, before you asked the front part of the group 

to stop, wasn’t the back still proceeding?
A. Let me give you the whole detail. No one was arrested 

until they had been given the order and asked if they had a per­

mit to parade -~

Q. Now, I understand that, but. —



J . L . R a y , C r . 1568.

A. and I walked up and down this group of about 400
people, making this announcement, using an amplifier or portable 
speaker —

Q. Before that you asked them to stop —
A. —  Let me finish this, just a minute. Then I told 

those who would disperse and move on peacefully that they would 
be allowed to do so . I gave them ample time to do that . I told 
those who remained in formation that they would be arrested and 
charged with parading without a permit. I gave them ample time 
to disperse, those who wanted to. I asked them in an informa­
tive way so that those who did not know that it was a violation 
of the law to parade without a permit, that they could disperse. 
Then, those who remained were arrested for parading without a 

permit. After we started loading them, they stampeded, defying 

law and order, resisting, went into Hobsons Alley like a bunch 

of wild people.
Q. Now, when you asked them to stop, when they first 

approached you, you said they were some few feet in front of 

you and hadn’t reached the police line.

A. That is correct.
Q. The group was still proceeding down the street?

A . That is correct .
Q. And they were walking on the side of the sidewalk,

were they not?
A. There was a group of about twenty in what you might



J . L . Ray, C r . 1569 .

call the first section of the parade, led by Willie Ludden.
Then, immediately following them, there was this 350 or more, 
following them in columns of six to eight in the street and com­
pletely taking up the sidewalk.

Q. And they were still coming out of the church at this
time?

A. That is correct.

Q. So that actually they were stopped before the group 
had actually gotten there?

A. The first one was stopped. He couldn’t go any further.

Q. So as a result, the rest of the group backed up —
A.. By that time the others had arrived and —
Q. And there was no place forward where they could go, 

is that not a fact?

A. That is a fact.
Q. So that they began to approach one another and the 

group backed upon itself because there was no other area that 

they could go into, is this not so?
A, They were, at that time after they all had been 

arrested, they were into the street and in columns of twos.

What you are trying to make it appear that, they were in 

columns of twos, and the reason they were ganged up in the 
street is because they couldn’t, but that is not correct.

Q. Was there any place for them to go, Captain Ray?

A. Not when they reached the skirmish line, no.



J . L . Ray, C r . 1570 .

Q. Not when they reached the skirmish line, that^s what 

I»m trying —

A. Thatfs right. They were in this formation, twenty 
people in columns of twos, on the sidewalk, will not take up but 
just about as much space as from here to that bench. Now, this 

whole --
Q. How far apart were these twenty people?
A. They were just about that far apart.

Q. Do you want to tell me that in feet. She can!t take 

down —
A. Maybe two and one-half to three feet.

Q. And you said they had a flag —

MR. NICHOLS:
If it please the Court, counsel interrupted the wit­

ness right in the middle of a sentence.

THE COURT:
Yes, let him finish his sentence.

THE WITNESS:
A. They will not take up —  twenty people in columns of 

twos, will not take up as much space as from here to that bench. 

Then, immediately following them, in columns of six to eight in 

the street of about 3i>-D to 375 will not take up the entire dis­

tance from the church to where these others were. They were
in

arrested in the formation that they left/ when they got into

formation at the church



J . L . Ray, C r . 1571 .

Q. You mean from the time that they were put under 
arrest nobody moved?

A. After they were, —  oh sure, they moved. Now you know 
they didn’t stand

Q. They were milling all around the area then?
A. That’s right.
Q. That’s what I’m trying to --

A. They weren’t, wait a minute now, they weren’t 
milling around the area until they stampeded like a bunch of 

wild people and went into Hobsons Alley.

Q. They stood absolutely still when they were put under 
arrest? *—

A. No, they did not.

Q. -- Then they went into Hobsons Alley where they stood 
still some more?

A. They didn’t stand absolut-ely still. They didn’t stand 

at attention, rigid attention, no.

Q. Were they moving about at that time?

A. They were shouting, chanting —

Q. I didn’t ask were they shouting, I asked —

A. —  Singing, and they did move some. They talked to 

each other. It was quite a disorderly group.

Q. So after you put them under arrest, there was some 

movement going on?

A. That’s correct.



J . L . Ray, Cr 1572 .

THE COURT :
How far would 

of this group, say 
how far was that person

you say it was from the back of the line 

the northernmost person in the group, 
from the church?

THE WITNESS:
You.r

side of Oakley 
church.

Honor,. I would say about, 
Street. They were all at

—  they were all this 
least a block from the

MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Now, where did you have the trucks that were used to 

transport them standing?

A. I didn’t have them.

Q. You had trucks there?

A. I calle-d for transportation at Headquarters. We had 

some that the police officers came in furnished by the Engineer­
ing Department. Then we had —

Q. Wait, tell me what were these --

A. They were covered trucks, about a ton truck. They would 

transport about twenty to thirty.

Q. Now, you had some of these in the area?

A. The police officers arrived in those and we also had 

our regular patrol wagon. It was there; it won’t take care of 
very many. Then I called Headquarters and told them I needed 

transportation and needed it fast. Then shortly after that the 

garbage trucks arrived.



J . L . Ray, C r . 1573 .

Q. How many garbage trucks arrived?
A. I don’t know.

Q. You don’t remember?

A. No, I sure dontt. Enough to take care of the 322.
THE COURT:

J)i4 -I understand yxsiu to say that these garbage trucks 
had not been previously used before for hauling garbage, or had 
they been used?

THE WITNESS:

They were brand new trucks, Your Honor.
THE COURT:

I understand, but had they been used?

THE WITNESS:

They had not been used at all for garbage.

MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Did you inspect each _ojie of them, Captain?

A. I didn’t inspect each one of them individually. I 

did inspect the trucks outside and they were brand new trucks. 

Q. To the best -of;, your knowledge as to the ones you

inspect ed?

' A. That’s right. The ones -that I inspected were brand 

new trucks. I did check with Mr. Mixon and inquired of him —  

Q.. I didn’t ask you what you checked with Mr. Mixon.

MR. NICHOLS:
May it please the Court, we think that this officer



J . L. Ray, Cr . 1574 .

has got a right to show whether he made an investigation which 
will reveal the answer to that question.
THE COURT:

Yes, I think so. Answer the question.
MRS. MORRIS:

If tie Court please, —
THE COURT:

Overruled. Answer the question.
THE WITNESS:

A. I inquired of Mr. Mixon, who is in charge of the 
Sanitation Department, and he said that every truck that he 

sent was brand new; had rtever been used to haul anything in.

MRS. MORRIS:

Your Honor, may I move that that be stricken. That 
is self-serving here »«- 
THE COURT:

Yes, I’ll sustain that motion to strike what somebody 
said to you.

MRS. MORRIS:
That was to be the tenor of my objection.

Q. What type of garbage trucks were these, how were they 

made, constructed?
A. I’m not too familiar with that. They are the pressure 

type; they have doors on the side and they have a vacuum inside 

that can be used to push garbage back. I am not that familiar



J . L . Ray, C r . 1575 .

with garbage trucks.
Q. Are they closed on all sides?
A. They are.

Q. Bo they have any windows in them?

A. They have this opening on the side that you can, --

they have no windows.
Q. ThatTs a door on the side?

A. ThatTs correct.
Q. And once the door is closed there is no ventilation 

in the truck, is there?

A. I donTt know of any. I don*t think the door was ever 
closed. I never did see it closed.

Q. Other than the door, there is no ventilation in these 

trucks. These trucks are constructed to move materials not 

people?

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, when you were on Livingston Road, I think this 

was the same day -«~

A. That was the same day.
Q. You said that somebody called you —  that you had 

received a radio message --

A. That is correct.
Q. That there were a group of people on Livingston Road?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you went to Livingston Road?



J . L . Ray, C r . 1576 .

A. That is correct.

Q. And you put up your skirmish line?

A. Well, we didn’t have the skirmish line completely, —  

we didn’t have enough officers to form a complete skirmish line 
at that time. Later I did. They had arrived there before we 

had a complete line across the street.
Q. They had arrived there? Who were they?

A. The paraders.
Q. They were on Livingston Road, I understand. And you 

said you didn’t know anything about this until you got a call 

on the radio.
A. With the officers that we had, we did spread across 

the street at that time.
Q. And you took your detail and you went up to Livings­

ton Road where you encountered these people?
A. No, we waited. They were about a half a block when 

I arrived from the intersection of Ridgeway and Livingston.

Q. When you got to the intersection, they were coming 

toward you —

hand,

A. That’s correct.
Q. —  And then is when you put a line across the street?

A. That is correct.
Q. Now, you didn’t know anything about this group before- 

did you?
A. No, the only thing I knew was what I had been informed.



J . L . Ray, C r . 1577 .

Q. After you put up your skirmish line, then you asked 
them if they had a permit to parade?

A. That is correct. They were singing, shouting, had 

placards and flags. It was very evident that it was a parade 
and they had people gathered on porches observing --

Q. And you had stopped them first though^ before you had 
asked them about this. You had stopped them with your skirmish 

line?
A. This had already taken place when I stopped them.

Q. Now, how many policemen did you have on Livingston

Road?
A. I imagine we had a total of forty by the time we got 

them loaded. To begin with, I imagine there were fifteen.
Q. Were they all at one end of Livingston Road* or were 

they interspersed throughout the area?
A. They were all at that particular location.

Q. They were all down where your skirmish line was?

A. That’s right .
Q. Now, you had been called by a patrol car, hadn’t you, 

to your knowledge, were you?

A. I was given that information by radio.

Q. Do you know where the radio call came from?
A. I do not, at that time. I later contacted a car in 

that area and told them to observe the group and they informed 

me about the group as I was enroute to this location.



J . L . Ray, Cr . 1578 .

Q. So there was a police car in this area as this group 

proceeded down Livingston Road?

A. Yes, there is a police car in most any area in the 

City of Jackson at any time.

Q. There were more than usual in that area at that time, 
weren’t there?

A. No .

Q. There were not more policemen than usual during the 

summer?
A. Not until I summonsed them to meet me at Livingston 

and Ridgeway.

Q. Now, let me see if I can —  you understand me. There 
were more policemen than usual in the area of Farish Street and 
in the area of Livingston Road, than is usual, wasn’t there?

A. I don’t know as I understand the question. If you 

are asking me if there was more people in the area of Livingston 

Road prior to my summons, my answer is no. After my summons, 

my answer is yes.
Q. There are more there were more policemen in the 

general areas that we were talking about during that time in 

the summer than there are, for instance, now?
A. No, in other words, it’s the same amopnt working that 

area now as it was that day prior to my summons for them to 

meet me there.
Q. Since this summer have you had occasion to have 150



policemen in the area of Farish Street Church?
A. No .

Q. So that there were more policemen in the summer than 

there are now?
A. That is correct.

Q. Now, on June the 1st, which has to do with Pascagoula 
and Poindexter, how many policemen were in the area at this 

time?
A. About fifty.

Q. And where were they stationed?
A. As I testified to to begin with, we were at the inter­

section of Lynch and Terry Road.

Q. Were you there before anybody was in the street?

A. I don’t, —  possibly we were, yes.
Q. Do you know where your radio message that there were 

a group of people coming down the street came from that day?

A. It came from Lieutenant Bennett.
Q. And where was the Lieutenant stationed?

A. He was on Lynch Street.

Q. Where on Lynch Street?

A. Near the Masonic Temple.
Q. He was stationed across the street from the Masonic 

Temple, wasn’t he?
A. He was there observing, yes.

Q. And, how long had he been there?

J . L. Ray, C r . 1579.



J . L . Ray, C r . 1580 .

A. I don’t know.

Q. There was somebody stationed there at all times during 
the summer, wasn’t there? Let’s just take June to simplify 
matt er s .

A. Probably not at all times, but most of the time, yes.
Q. Most of the time?
A . Yes.

Q. Now, on June 13th you placed two groups under arrest. 

You placed a group that were in a protest demonstration, you ar­
rested a group of people who were on a porch. I think you gave 

the address as 608 Rose Street. Bo you know whose house that 

is?

A. It belongs to a Miles person, I don’t remember her 
full name.

Q. Were you familiar with her before they were on that
porch?

A . No .

Q. Bo you know how tho se-p-eople came to be on that porch?

A. They were part of the group that flocked out of the 
Pearl Street AME Church.

Q. But they were not in the group carrying flags or 

posters in this protest demonstration?

A. They were not part of the parade.

Q. They were watching, —  observing?

A. That is correct.



L Ray, Cr 1581 .J

Q. And you and your men went up on the porch at 608 
Rose Street and arrested a group of them?

< • • i

A. That is correct.

Q. Bid you arrest Mrs. Miles?
A. I did not.

Q. Did you know where she was at the time?
A . I did not ♦

Q. So you didn*t ask to talk to her at that time?
A. I did not. I might add this though, if you would like, 

we arrested Tommy Miles who did live there. He was arrested for 

abusive language, resisting arrest, and distrubing the peace.
Q. On his porch?

A. That is correct.

Q. But Mrs. Miles'didn*t complain about the people stand­
ing on her porch, did she?

A. I talked to her later. Would you like to know the 
conversation I had with her?

Q. No, I asked you, before you made the arrest, had she 

complained aJbxuit the people standing on her porch to you?

A. She did not complain.

Q. Now, this group that you arrested on Dalton Street who 
had been at Battlefield Park, you said there were two groups in 

Battlefield Park, one approaching the other?

A. That is correct.

Q. And the group that you arrested, I take it, were all



J . L . Ray, C r . 1582 .

Negro ?
A. They were.

Q. And what was the group who you said were approaching?
A. They were white. They came up in cars and they were 

ready to go to battle with this group.
Q. Did you arrest either group?
A. I ordered the entire park cleared and they all obeyed 

the order.

Q. Now, you apparently followed the group that you even­
tually arrested, didntt you?

A. That is correct.

Q. You followed them as they went on their way?

A. I did not follow them. After they had ganged up and 
blocked the intersection there at Jackson Boulevard and, I 

believe, it is Handy Street, I went to that location and dis­
persed them from blocking this entire street.

Q. And then you talked to them on three different occa­

sions subsequently?
A. At that time there was about fifty of them. When they 

reached the intersection of Dalton and Jackson Boulevard, then 

Jackson Boulevard changes into Hair Street. About half of this 

group went down Hair Street, the other half went north on Dal­

ton Street. I mentioned to them three times to stay out of the 

street and walk close to the curb.

Q. So, therefore, you talked to them on three occasions



J . L . Ray, Cr. 1583 .

You were not walking, I take it, —
A. I approached them, that’s right.
Q. You were in a car?

A. By automobile, correct.

Q. So you were following the group from the time they 
left the park?

A. Well, if you want to put it that way, but I did not
follow the group at all. After, —  the information was that

were
they had ganged up here at the intersection, and/completely 
blocking that street, 'I went to that location. Then, as the 
duty of a police officer, after they once had done this, I 
felt it was my duty to see that they did not block the street 
anymore.

Q. So you kept them under surveillance and talked to 

them on three subsequent occasions?

A. After I saw that they did not want to do right, I 
did, yes.

Q. That was the way you felt about it, that they did 
not want to?

A. Well, it proved out that that was the way it was.

Q. Now, did you follow any other group from the park?

A . No, I did not.

Q. Just this one group?
A. I didn’t follow them from the park, as I have testi­

fied —



J . L . Ray, Cr 1584 .

Q. Well, we disagree as to whether you followed them, 
let’s get rid of the word. This group that you arrested, did 
you have occasion to stop any other group before they left the 
park? Or place any other group under arrest?

A. I did not .

Q. Just this one group of Negroes?
A. That is correct.

Q. Now, these were a group of teenagers, weren’t they?
A. What day was that?

Q. June the 7th.
A. There was twenty-one arrested. As I recall, there

were teenagers in the group, and I believe it was about half 
and half, I don’t recall; I don’t have that information.

Q. You have the information for all the others, but you 
don’t have it for this day?

A. I may not have it for all the others. I have twenty- 

one arrested here. Of course, I know some of the group, Jessie 

Harris, he’s an adult, and Helen O’Neil, I believe she’s about 

eighteen, I believe she would be considered an adult, and — -

Q. Do you remember all of them?
A. I don’t remember all of them, I sure don’t.

Q. And you don’t have any notes on how many adults or

how many teenagers were there?

A. No, I do know there were some adults in the group.

Q. When you ordered the park cleared, why did you do it?



J . L . Ray, Cr 1585 .

A. To avoid a riot.
Q. You thought there would be a riot with the white

people interfering with the Negroes in the Park?
A. I thought there would be a riot between these two

groups of people.

Q. Is this park generally used only by white persons
A. Correct .

Q. Now, on May 29th, you were on Capitol Street and
arr est ed this Doris Erskine in Primos Restaurant. Now, you
said you were standing in the area of Green’s. How many
policemen were in the area —  not the area of Green’s,
t he .area of Capitol Street on that day?

A. Probably, I don’t know exactly, I’ll try to estima
it. P ro bably at the intersection of Lamar and Capitol, the:
were two traffic officers, and at West Street there were pr̂
ably two traffic officers. Probably six police officers, i:
cluding myself.

Q. Within how many blocks?
A. Within a block.

Q. Within a block?
A. Right .

Q. Were there more policemen than normal in the area
t hat day?

A. Yes .

Q. Now, Primos operates a restaurant, doesn’t he?



J . L . Ray, Cr. 1586 .

A. That’s correct .

Q. And he restricts his clientele to white persons?
A. I can’t answer that, but --

Q. Bid you ever see any Negroes in there eating?
A. Never have.

Q. Have you ever been in there?
A. Yes, I have been in there.

Q. Have you eaten there?
A. I don’t know, it’s been a long time. I think I have

eaten there .
THE COURT:

Are you at a convenient stopping place?

MRS. MORRIS:

Yes, I think so. I have quite some material —
THE COURT:

I figured you would. All right, we will just take a 
recess for lunch until 1:30.

(After recess for lunch, at 1:30 P.M. the proceedings 

continued as follows:)
MRS. MORRIS:

Q. On June the 15th, Captain Ray, you testified that you 

had been in the area of the funeral home following the funeral 

procession and you went some place else, and you got a call 

there was trouble in the area and then you returned.

A. That is correct



J . L . Ray, C r . 1587 .

Q. So that what you described was happening after you 

got back?
A. I tailed the funeral procession and I passed by this 

funeral home and everybody seemed to be dispersing peacefully.

I went on past the funeral home, turned west on Monument Street, 
then back north on Mill Street which, —  Mill Street runs paral­
lel with Farish Street —  and at that time I was informed that 
a group was rioting going south on Farish Street. I received 
this information from Captain Lowrey.

Q. Was Captain Lowrey at the scene?

A. I beg your pardon?

ft. Was Captain Lowrey at the scene?

A. Yes, he was.
Q. So, you don*t know how —
A. So, let me complete this. So I asked Captain Lowrey 

was that part of the group that seemed to be dispersing. He 

said if they --

Q. I would object to anything he told you.
THE COURTS

Overruled.
THE WITNESS:

A. So he said "If they are dispersing, they are mighty 

disorderly, hollering and chanting and just like a wild bunch,” 

and he said, "They are headed toward Capitol Street.” So at 

that time, I summonsed the radio and told them to tell the men



J . L . Ray, Cr. 1588 .

to come to Capitol and Farish Street and by the time I was there 
they were almost to Capitol Street, and it was a wild group.

Q. During the time that you weren’t there, you don’t know 
how it started of your own knowledge?

A . I do not .

Q. And you deployed your men to Capitol and Farish?
A. Those men who had been stationed along the funeral 

procession route, yes.
Q. Were there already policemen in the area?
A. Yes, there were already policemen at Farish and Capitol 

because that is a main artery.
Q. And there were State Troopers there that day, too, 

weren’t there?
A. They were called in. After all this brick and bottle 

throwing started, they were called in; they came to our assist­
ance. We needed all the help we could get.

Q. Did you call them?
A. I did. I summonsed the radio and told them to come 

to that area.
Q. Now you spoke about Mr. Salter and Reverend King, 

you saw them leaning out the windows?
A. That is correct.
Q. Were there other people leaning out windows?
A. I recall one other person that I know leaning out the

window, I say leaning out the window; he was standing in the



J . L . R a y , C r . 1589 .

window .
Q. Were there people who were not on the street but up­

stairs watching what was going on?
A. Yes, until the rock and bottle throwing started, then 

all disappeared except those three that I saw.

Q. But there had been other people who were just stand-

ing ther e watching because there was apparently something to
watch? . .

A. That is correct, there was some people watching.

Q. Wa s it noisy?
A. Noisy, very noisy •

Q. So you don’t know what anybody was saying really, do
you, tho s e p eopie who were upstairs?

A. No , I do not, I can’t quote as to what they were say-
ing upstairs, I do not know because this group downstairs was
very noi sy.

Q. Now, there were a number of peopie in that procession
that were from out of town?

A. That is correct.

Q. And a number who hadn’t been in Jackson previously
during the week?

A. I can’t answer that.
Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, that there were

a number of strangers from out of town in that funeral proces­
sion?



J . L . Ray, C r . 1590 .

A . I do know that.

Q. Now, on May the 30th, which is when the group was on 
the steps of this building, the Post Office building, did you 
make any arrests of the crowd that was standing around watching 
them?

A . I did not .

Q. This is the crowd that was threatening the group that 
was'standing on the steps.

A. I did not arrest them. After I determined the cause 
of the trouble, I tried to remove that cause and after the cause 
was removed, it was very peaceful again.

Q. And you determined that the people who were standing 
on the steps were causing the trouble?

A. It proved that way, yes.

Q. Let me ask you this. On these arrests that you made, 
that you testified to, about —  for parading without a permit, 
on each occasion you asked the group to stop and then you —

A. Well —

Q. Will you let me finish my question?

A. Pardon me.
Q. —  You asked the group to stop. You told them that 

if they wished to disband they could at that point, and then 
the ones who remained were arrested for parading without a per­

mit, and those who chose to go when yai said so were not 

arrested for parading without a permit. Is that essentially it?



J . L . Ray, C r . 1591.

A. The only group that I asked to stop was the group on 
Pascagoula Street that had run wild and was going back and

forth, and so forth. The other groups, they had to stop because 
of the skirmish line. Then I would inquire in an informative 
way if any of the group had a permit to parade, informing them 
that it was a violation of the law to parade without a permit. 
Then, I would tell those who would disperse and move on peace­
fully that they would be allowed to do so, but those who re­
mained would be arrested for parading without a permit.

Q. And the ones who had been parading but had chose to 
disperse were not arrested for parading without a permit?

A. That’s correct. It is not the desire of a police 
officer to arrest anybody and if they realize that they are in 
violation of the law, I did allow them to go.

Q. But those who dispersed were not arrested for
parading without a permit?

A. Those who stood there and wilfully defied law and 
order they were arrested.

Q. Now you didn’t answer my question, Captain Ray.
Those who dispersed were not arrested for parading without a 

permit ?

A. That is correct .

Q. They had all been in the same group

A. That is correct.

Q. So that they were actually arrested

befo reha nd?

for not dispersing?



J . L . Ray, C r . 1592 .

A. That is not correct.
Q. Now, the incident you described at Lanier High School,

that had to do with high school students?
A. Yes .

Q. On their campus?
A. Yes .

Q. Of their high school?
A. Yes .

Q. They were students that attended Lanier High as far
as you know?

A. I'don’t believe, you said the arrests at Lanier High
School, I don’t believe —

Q. Well, the incident, as to the incident at Lanier
High School, it involved high school students?

A. That is correct.

Q. On their campus?
A. That is correct.

Q. And Lanier High School is a Negro high school, is it
not ?

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, of the 1,092 arrests, how many did you make or

wi t n e s s , do you know?
A. How many did I make, —  I don’t have that information, 

I would say more than half of them though.

Q. Now, if you characterize that as demonstration cases



J . L . Ray, C r . 1593 .

that is your own analysis of it, these 1,092 arrests?

A. The 1,092 that were arrested were arrested for vio­
lating the law, such as abusive language, disturbing the peace, 
trespassing, just numerous different laws; distributing hand­
bills without a permit, contributing to the delinquency of a 
minor and most anything that you can mention. They were, «*— 
most of them were very disorderly groups.

Q. But I was trying to get you to clear it up, which you 
have for me. Now, on May the 29th, did you make any arrests of 
people who were picketing?

A. I have never arrested anybody for picketing.

Q. Well, did you make any arrests of people who had 
attempted to walk up and down in front of business establish­
ments on Capitol Street?

A. On May the 29th, on the north side of Capitol Street, 
about 12:30, I arrested six for obstructing the sidewalk.

Q. And they were on the sidewalk when you got there?
A. Yes, they were on the sidewalk.

Q. Did they have any time to walk before you got there?
A. Certainly, they were walking.
Q. And they had walked up and down in front of the store 

or an establishment?
A. They were in front of the F. W. Woolworth Company.

Q. Had you observed them walking?

A. Yes, I had



J . L. Ray, 1594 .

Q. And they were walking a distance apart of three to 
four feet?

A. Yes, they were three or four feet, and they had plac­
ards about twenty-four inches in width.

Q. And they were walking and returning, weren’t they?
In other words, they weren’t just walking up the street, they 
go a certain distance and then turn —

A. They would make a turn in front of people and block 
the normal use of the sidewalk. That’s why they were arrested.

Q. They were walking on that portion of the sidewalk 

near the curb?
A. No, this group did not. They made turns and it was 

a very congested area at that time. This was during the trouble, 
I believe, in Woolworth’s, —  no, that was the day before. That 

was the day before.
Q. And six of them were arrested for blocking, for —

A. Obstructing the sidewalk, correct.

THE COURT :
you

Captain, what would/say was the most congested busi­

ness block in the City of Jackson?

THE WITNESS:
Your Honor, that is what we refer to as the long block, 

that is the block beteeen Farish and Lamar Streets; in the block 

where F. W. Woolworth Company is.

C r .

THE COURT:



J . L Ray, Cr. 1595 .

Is that just on the south side of the street, north 
side of the street?
THE WITNESS:

There is more activity on the north side than there 
is on the south side, but both sides of that particular block 
are the most used portion.of Capitol Street.
THE COURT:

Is that the heaviest pedestrian traffic?
THE WITNESS:

Yes sir .
MRS. MORRIS:

Q. Did you make any arrests for restraint of trade?

A. I arrested Medgar Evers and Roy Wilkins and Wilcher 
for Section 1088; that does deal with —

Q. That’s restraining trade?
A. That’s right.
Q. And they were attempting to walk on Capitol Street at 

that time, were they not?
A. They had signs interfering with; such as ’’Don’t buy 

on Capitol Street,” interfering with trade, yes.
Q. And they were on the sidewalk not quite a minute 

before they were arrested?
A. They walked from Farish and Capitol to below Shain- 

berg’s; I would estimate at least, —  I imagine that is 75 feet. 

Q. How many stores does that cover, how many businesses



J . L. Ray, Cr> 1596 .

are there?

A. Well, there’s one, two, three, they were in front of 
the fourth store.

Q. In front of the fourth store?

A. That’s correct. By the way, they had passed out pam­
phlets concerning this, too, which came to my attention.

Q. Did you know that at the time you arrested them?
A. Did I know of those pamphlets?
Q. At the time you arrested them?
A. Yes, I knew that it was a program that was in effect, 

yes, I did know that.

Q. Did you know that —  you said they had passed out pam­
phlets, you mean Medgar Evers and Roy Wilkins and this third 
perso n?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.
A.

officers

Q.

June the

I can’t, —  their organization the NAACP .

That is three individuals?
I have never seen any of those three individuals, no. 
They were just walking when you arrested them?

That’s correct. Of course, as you know, they are 

in that organization.
I am aware of that. Now, did you make any arrests on 

3rd for parading without a permit?

A. I did.
Q. Did you arrest a group of six individuals on that

day?



J . L . Ray, Cr. 1597 .

A. That is correct.

Q. And charged them with parading without a permit?
A. That is correct.

Q. Did you make any arrests on June 4th of a group at the 
City Hall?

A . I did .

Q. And what did you charge them with?
A. Breach of the peace.

Q. On the 29th, Captain Ray, did you arrest some persons 
for displaying placards without a permit?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. How many were arrested on that day?

A. I don’t recall, but there were some arrested for dis­
playing a placard without a permit. We have a new —

Q. You are using your notes there, do your notes reflect
that?

A. It shows a group arrested on June 29/th; a group 
arrested at —

Q. May the 29th.

A. May the 29th, arrested at J. C. Penney’s, in front of 

J. C. Penney’s, displaying placards without a permit.
Q. Does it say that there was a group of four arrested 

on that occasion?
A. Four arrested, correct. Would you like for me to say

anything about that?



J • L . Ray, C r . 1598 .

Q. No, I’d just like for you to answer my questions, 
Captain Ray. On June 5th did you make an arrest of nine per­
sons and charge them for parading without a permit?

A. June 5th?
Q. Uh huh.
A. I did.

Q. And on June 7th, you arrested ten persons and charged 
them with parading without a permit?

A. June the 7th?
Q. No, —  yes, June the 7th.
A. Yes, I arrested five.
Q. Five, and charged them with parading without a permit? 
A . Yes.
Q. Were the five together?

A . Yes.
Q. Do you remember what kind of handbills were being 

passed out when somebody was arrested for passing out handbills? 
I think you arrested somebody on the 18th of July.

A. I don’t know.
Q. You didn’t make the arrest on the 18th of July?
A. I don’t have any information on the 18th of July.
Q. Did you make any arrests for passing out handbills?
A. I did not. I recall some being arrested for that.
Q. I just want you to tell me what you have participated 

in. Now, that 1,092 people that you arrested, did you include



J . L . Ray, C r . 1599 .

all those arrests that were made on the 15th of June in that 
t otal?

A. I did.

Q. Did you include all those that were made at Lanier 
High School?

A . Yes .

Q. So you included any number of arrests that were made 
for parading without a permit and for protest demonstrations?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you donTt know of your own knowledge which --
A. You mentioned the arrests. None of them were charged 

with that. They were charged with particular violations, such 

as I have mentioned.
Q. When you testified, Captain Ray, you stated that you 

made 1,092 arrests for demonstrating, is that right?
A. The Police Department.
Q. I am trying to determine how you determined that they 

were demonstration cases since you stated that it included any 
number of offenses during a certain period of time, so this is 

what you decided were demonstration cases.
A. Most of them developed from churches and the NAACP 

Headquarters and such as that. That’s the reason —
Q. I am aware of that, but there were others included —

_ That’s the reason; they determined them as demonstra­

tions, even though it is a violation of the law. That’s the



J . L . Ray, C r . 1600 .

reason I mentioned that. It developed from these workshops 
and so forth that had developed in these different places,
sponsored by NAACP, CORE, SNCC, and other organizations.

Q. There were some arrests that were made that did not 
emanate from a church or from the Masonic Temple, they were 
just people downtown, right?

A . Yes.

Q. Now, you don’t know how they got downtown on a number 
of occasions?

A. I don’t know how they got downtown?
Q. Yes.

A. No, I don’t know how they all got downtown.
Q.. Therefore, these are what you decided were demonstra-

'V,tionficases, right? You have made this conclusion yourself?
A. I am familiar with Detective Black who attended all 

these meetings and from the information that I got from his 

reports, they were continuously saying what they were going to 
do in these meetings, and it worked out like they would say.

Q. Some of these arrests were not related to things that 
were mentioned during meetings so, therefore, you decided what 

you meant by demonstration cases, right?
A. Well, let me say this, too. Most of these people 

after their arrest were interviewed. They would tell of 
attending workshops who were conducted by different ones.

Q. I don’t doubt that for one minute, Captain Ray



J . L . Ray, C r . 1601 .

my question is ~

A. I am trying to answer your question.
Q. But you are not.

A. Well, what was your question?

Q. My question was that when you testified that 1,092 
arrests were made in demonstration cases, you have concluded 
that these were demonstration casesj as based on your own 
analysis of the matter?

A. My conclusion is that they developed from these 
different organizations and workshops.

Q. And it was your conclusion?
A. After interviewing these people that were arrested,

yes.
Q. Do you have a breakdown of those 1,092 cases?

A. I do not.
Q. On any occasion other than the one we talked about, 

which was May the 3lst, did the City of Jackson use garbage 

trucks to transport people they had arrested?
A. I recall no other time that we used garbage trucks. 

That was the largest group that was arrested, 322.
Q. Then you are not in a position to say that they were

not used on other occasions?
A. Any other arrests that I personally made, they were

not used.
Q. But you don’t know whether they were used for the



J . L. Ray, Cr 1602 .

arrest of other persons during the summer?

A. I know of no other time they were used.
MRS. MORRIS:

That’s all, Your Honor.
MR. NICHOLS:

We have no further questions of this witness, Your
Honor .

We will call Mr. Cliff Bingham.
MRS. MORRIS:

Y0ur Honor, we are going to object to this witness.
We were advised to exchange lists of witnesses before the case 
started and I think about three days ago I was served with a 
subsequent list which included any number of witnesses that 
were not included in the first list. I don’t know any reason 
for this. We were compelled to put ours on all together.
MR. NICHOLS:

Your Honor, in the original notice that we gave, we 
stated that in the event the testimony is developed in chief by 

the Plaintiff, if it developed that we needed to call additional 
witnesses to rebut that testimony, we reserved the right to do 

it. At the conclusion of the session we had previously, Mr. 

Watkins advised the Court and counsel for the Plaintiffs that 

it would be necessary for us to file an additional list of 

witnesses, which we did.

MRS. MORRIS:



1603 .

If the Court please, I don’t think that changes the 
nature of the requirement. The Plaintiffs were required to get 
their entire list in early. There were certain number of days 
allowed within which time Defendants were supposed to respond 
to that list, within the framework of the witnesses on that list, 
and what it was indicated that they would testify to, so it was 
no surprise to Defendants after our list came out. But this new 
group, this is a surprise to us.
THE COURT:

How many witnesses are on the new group?
MR. NICHOLS:

There are five, but I believe there will be only two 
that we will use, Your Honor. I might say that we didn’t know,
I believe that is right, too, we did not know exactly what the 
nature of this proof was going to be that they put on in chief, 
and it was in the course of them putting this testimony on that 
we realized that these witnesses would throw some light on this 
case.

THE COURT:
Well, I believe that I’ll let him use that. I think 

that this other witness, —  I believe we had some discussion 
about:'.that in the library and we just have to adjust these 

rules as we go along. I will accord you the same privilege 
though if this witness’ testimony affords you any surprise, I’ll 

let you offer testimony by a witness whose name you have suggested



C. Bingham, Dir. 1604.

and that’s about the only way I can figure to make proper use 
of it .

MR. CLIFF BINGHAM
called as a witness for the Defendants, and after having been 
duly sworn, testified as follows:
MR . TRAVIS:

Q. Would you state your name, age and address please?
A. I am Cliff Bingham, 50 years old, and I live at 4746 

McRaven Road, Jackson.

Q. By whom are you employed?
A. I am employed by the Lamar Broadcasting Company.
Q. And that is a, — - what is your —
A. That is WLBT and WJDX.
Q. Radio and TV?
A. Radio and TV.
Q. And what is your employment?
A. I am a reporter and photographer.
Q. And how long have you been a reporter and photographer? 

A. For them, ten years.
Q. And what was your experience before that time?
A. I worked ten years for the Clarion Ledger as a photo­

grapher .
Q. All right, sir. Than you have been a newspaperman, 

and TV reporter and cameraman for —

A. Approximately twenty years.



C. Bingham, Dir 1605 .

Q. Did you have occasion to cover certain assignments 

during the past summer here in the City of Jackson, and I 
invite your attention particularly to May 28th to an incident 
that happened over at Woolworth*s here in the City of Jackson 
on Captiol Street?

A. Yes, I did.
Q. You did cover that story?
A. Yes.

Q. If you would, would you tell the Court what the occa­
sion was, your being there, how you came to be there and what 
you observed?

A. We received word that there was going to be some sort 
of demonstration at Woolworth’s and I went down there and 
shortly after I got there three people came in, sat at the lunch 
counter and the lunch counter was then closed. They remained 
seated there for, oh I guess, an hour or more, and —

Q. What was going on during this period of time?
A. Well, there was very little going on. There were a 

lot of people coming in and out and at one point a man came in 
and there were, I believe, two girls and a boy seated at the 
counter. I*m not quite clear on that, but I think there were 
two, there has been so many. The man grabbed the boy off the 
stool and threw him on the floor. The manager went outside and 

called the police in and they arrested this man.
Q. Did the police act promptly upon being called by the



C. Bingham, Dir. 1606.

manager?

A. As soon as the manager got out front and called them 
in, they came right in.

Q. And what did the police do then?

A. They arrested the man who had taken the man off the 
counter and they took both of them to Headquarters.

Q. Now, did you hear any conversation between the manager 
and the police?

A . I did not .

Q. Did you observe anything else there on that occasion?
A. I did not.

Q. Directing your attention to Rose and Deer Park Street 
on June 13th, I believe, did you have occasion to cover that 
a ssi-gnment ?

A. I did.
Q. And that was the occasion, were you there?

A. I was there.
Q. Were you thbre in your line of work, covering the

story?

A . I was.
Q. Just how did you come to be there?
A. Well, the same way that we were at Woolworth's. We 

had information that there was to be some sort of demonstration. 

There was a meeting at this church on Pearl Street of a group 

of people and we understood that from that meeting there would



C. Bingham, Dir. 1607 .

be a group to try to march downtown and I was out there to see 
and observe and take pictures of what happened.

Q. If you would, would you tell the Court what you did 
observe?

A. Well, a group of people, I do not know how many, there 
must have been anywhere from twelve to twenty came out of there, 
marched down Rose Street-- north, I guess —

Q. What part of Rose Street were you in?
A. From Pearl Street to Deer Park Street.
Q. You said they marched down the street?
A . Yes .
Q. Are there sidewalks on either side of Rose Street at 

this area?
A. I think there is.
Q. And were they on the sidewalk?
A. Some were on the sidewalk and some were in the street.

Q. Were they blocking the street?
A. Well, those that were in the street were blocking the 

street and cars were having difficulty getting through there.
Q. All right, sir, would you tell the Court .just what 

happened then?
A. The police stopped them in front of Hart*s Bakery, 

which is down there almost at the corner of Deer Park Street 
and the police went down the line of people, took the flag each, 

—  I think, —  Itm sure that each one of them had a flag, most



C. Bingham, Dir. 1608.

of them had a flag anyway. He took the flag out of their hands 

and told them that they were under arrest. These people offered 
no objections and said nothing, the only disturbance was caused 
by others on the< out side „

Q. Now, did you see them arrested and moved out in 
vehicles after they had been arrested?

A . Yes .

Q. Did you have them under observation all this period 
of time?

A . Yes .

Q. Could you tell the Court whether or not, insofar as 
those that were in the street are concerned, whether or not you 

saw a policeman at any time strike or push any of the persons 
that were in the street with a night stick?

A. He did not, they offered no resistance whatever and 
he just took the flags and went right down the line taking the 
flags out of their hands, and that was all there was to that.

Q. And, insofar as the flags were concerned, you did 
see all of this, there was none of it that you missed seeing?

A. No, I was there.
Q. All right. Now, did you see any of the police at any 

time tear any of these flags?

A . Oh no .

Q. You did not?

A. No .



C. Bingham, Dir. 1609.

Q. Now, did anything else happen out there on this occa­
sion, Mr. Bingham?

A. A group of people on the front porch of the first 
house, between Deer Park and Pearl Street, there was a large 
group of people on this porch that started yelling and screaming 
and shouting, making a general disturbance, and Chief Ray walked 
up the sidewalk and stopped in front of the house and told these 
people, oh three or four times, he didn’t just stop with one 
time, he told them at least three times to my knowledge, that 
they were going to have to cut out all the racket, that they 

were causing a disturbance. They got worse, got louder and a 
little more shouting with their language and using some language 
that could be called abusive.

Q. Would you call it abusive?
A. I would.

Q. Did you recognize any of these persons who were on 
the steps and making all this ruckus?

A. I recognized two.

Q. Who were these persons that you did recognize?
A. John Salter and Ed King.

Q. And who are they?
A. They were two professors at the time at Tougaloo 

College .
Q. All right, sir. Now, if you would, tell the Court 

just exactly what happened from that point on. You said that



C. Bingham, Dir. 1610 .

Captain Ray had asked them a number of times to be quiet and 
that they —

A. They actually got louder and then, through the bull­
horn, Chief Ray said, "You are all under arrest," and at that 
point they broke and ran. The police went in to arrest them, 
Salter resisted and tried to swing at a policeman and that’s 
when the policeman hit him in the head with a night stick and 
knocked him down on the ground.

Q. All right, sir. Now, just what did Salter do, what 
did you see Salter do?

A. Well, the policeman ran up on the porch and tried to 
get hold of him and when he did, Salter swung back at him. When 
he did that, the policeman hit him.

Q. Had the police officer made any act other than to just 
place his hands on him to arrest him?

A . That’ s all.

Q. And, it was at this point that Salter did what?
A. He swung at him, he swung his arm back as if to hit 

him and when he did the policeman hit him.
Q. All right. What happened then after this?
A. Well, they took Salter to the paddy wagon and they 

arrested some woman, I don’t know who she was. I understood 

that she was Ed King’s wife, that is what I was told at the

scene .
Q. Did you see all of this, now?



C. Bingham, Dir. 1611.

A . I did .

Q. Now, you say that King was there too.

A. King was there. He disappeared, I don’t know where 
he got off to.

Q. Was he at any time struck in any way?

A. No, because when the policemen went toward the porch 
to arrest some of the people that they could get hold of, King 
went back in the house or went around the house, I’m not sure 
which. I think he went back in the house because he came out 
on the porch after it was all over. I don’t think King was 
arrested at that time.

Q. All right. Now, in regards to Salter, you say you saw 
him struck one time?

A . That’s right.

Q. Was that it?

A. That’s it. I saw this one strike and it opened a place 

on his head and made him bleed.
Q. All right, and how would you describe that, the place 

on his head?
A. Well, it was a very superficial cut. I saw him later,

I didn’t know how bad he was hurt at the time, but later I saw 

him and it was a very small cut.
Q. And you had all of this under observation all of the

time and that’s all that happened?
A. I was on the sidewalk and it was only about ten to



C, Bingham, Dir. 1612.

twelve feet to the porch of 
Q. Did you see any po 

June the 13th, either in the 
force that was not necessary 

A , I di d not .

Q. How did the police 
under the circumstances?

A. It just so happens 
are under and that is to *•-

this house.
lice officer on this occasion, 
street or on these steps use any 
or unreasonable?

on this occasion conduct themselves 

that I know the orders the police

MRS. MORRIS:

Your Honor, I am going to object to this.
THE COURT :

On what grounds?
MRS. MORRIS:

He is testifying he knows the orders that the police 
are under and I don’t think that is relevant here. He is 
supposed to be testifying as to what he observed as his own 

knowledge .
THE COURT:

I don’t believe it is resjioJisive, you can ask him the 

question over again.

MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Mr. Bingham, did you see any police officer of the 

City of Jackson use any more force than was necessary?

A. I did not.



C. Bingham, Dir. 1613.

MRS. MORRIS:

I object to the form of that because it is leading.
THE COURT:

Overruled, go ahead.
MR. TRAVIS:

Q. Now, in regards to June the 15th, did you have occa­
sion to cover, —  have an assignment on that day, involving some 
more of these

A . I did .

Q. And where was that, Mr. Bingham?
A. On Farish Street.

Q. Do you recall what time of day this was?
A. I’d say it was around 3:00 o’clock, I am not sure of 

the time.

Q. What happened on this occasion?

A. Do you want me to start at the beginning and tell you 
what preceded —

Q. What I’m interested in is any disturbance on this

o cca sion.
A. Oh, well, that was after the funeral of Medgar Evers 

and after the crowd had marched from out on Lynch Street all 
the way down Farish Street to the funeral home, a large group 
of people broke away and came back toward Capitol Street. I 

had gone to the station and when I heard the, —  got the word 

that they were coming back towards Capitol Street, up the street,



C. Bingham, Dir. 1614 .

I circled around by the State Office Building and came up in 

back of them. I parked in front of Ferguson Furniture Company, 
got up on top of my car, and there were a hundred or so people 
gathered all around me shouting and screaming. The police had 
gathered near Capitol Street. Chief Ray came down the street 
with the police in back of him waiting, they didn*t move in.
He came down with a bullhorn and asked them to please disperse, 

to go on back to their homes, and not cause any more trouble, or 
words to that effect. They ignored him and kept shouting and 
the police gradually, slowly, moved down Farish Street and got 
down to Amite Street. By that time the crowd had moved back 
half way between Amite Street and Griffith Street. All this 
time, I was in between, or among the group that was shouting 
and calling out.

The police moved slowly in, all the way across the 
street abreast of each other. A large group of police. At that 
point, when they got between Griffith and Amite Street, the 
crowd started throwing bottles and bricks and anything else it 
seemed that they pould get their hands on. The police kept 
moving rather slowly on in. The crowd moved back as the police 

moved in and the police never got closer to the crowd than, I 

would say, seventy-five feet, possibly a hundred feet, because 

they were throwing bricks, and bottles and it was dangerous to 

be out in the street.
Somewhere at this point, John Boar of the Justice



C. Bingham, Dir. 1615.

Department came down the street, walked towards the crowd 
throwing the bottles; he had to dodge bottles and bricks too, 
because I was observing him as he went along, and he finally 

made it into the crowd and stopped the bottle throwing and the 
bricks, and then shortly after that ~

Q. Let me ask you this. Did you recognize any of these 
people that were in this crowd that was throwing these bricks?

A. No, I did not. While John Doar was talking to the 
group, another group came down the street towards them from the 
police lines. One of them that I knew was Jack Young, a local 
attorney, and three or four other people that I did not know.

Q. Now, how would you describe the conduct of the police 
of the City of Jackson under these circumstances?
MRS. MORRIS:

Your Honor, I object to that. He can ask him what the 
police were doing, but what somebody’s conduct was requires a 
conclusion.

MR. TRAVIS:

Let me withdraw —
THE COURT:

Yes, I’ll let you rephrase it.

MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Did you see any police use any type of, was there 

any type of contact between the police and this crowd?

MRS MORRIS:



C. Bingham, Dir. 1616.

That’s objectionable because it is leading.
THE COURT:

Overruled.
THE WITNESS:

I did not .

MR. TRAVIS:

Q. All right, sir. Were there any policemen injured on 
this occasion, or do you know?

A. Yes, there were.

Q. How many of them were injured?
A. I don’t know, I saw two that were injured.

Q. And what type of injury did these policemen have that 
you saw that were injured?

A. They were only slightly injured, but they were hit in 
the head, one of them was hit in the head with a brick and the 
other one was hit on the leg with a broken bottle.

MR. TRAVIS:
Thank you. Your witness.

CROSS EXAMINATION

MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Mr. Bingham, were you in Woolworth’s or outside of 

Woolworth’s on the day you were talking about?

A . I was inside.
Q. You were inside at all times?

A. Yes



C. Bingham, Cr. 1617 .

Q. And there were three people at the counter?
A . That’ s right.

Q, Tĥ r stayed there about an hour?
A . That’s right.

Q. And during the time that they were there, there was a 
large crowd gathered around there, was there not?

A . Yes .

Q« And was this inside Woolworth’s?
A. There were crowds coming and going all that time.
Q. There was a large crowd that stayed fairly stationary 

in terms of number, whereas it might not have been the same 
people .

A. Yes, there was a crowd of people, there wasn’t a large 
crowd I’d say.

Q. And some of the group that were standing around were 
throwing things on the counter, at the people who were 
sitting at the counter?

A. No .
Q. Nobody in the crowd threw anything like catsup or 

mustard at anybody who was seated?

A, No .
Q. You didn’t see that?

A. Not while I was there.

Q. How long were you there?
A. I was there about —  I guess I was there an hour and



C. Bingham, C r . 1618.

a half or two hours.

Q. And do you know how long the people were there?
A . No, I don’t .

Q, And you were observing everything closely?
A . Yes .

Q. And you never saw anybody throw anything at these 
people?

A . I did not .

THE COURT :

Are you making a distinction between what somebody 
threw .and what somebody poured on somebody?
THE WITNESS:

No sir, I didn’t see any of that, Judge.
THE COURT:

You didn’t see any catsup poured on somebody?
THE WITNESS:

No sir, I can explain why if you would like me to.

THE COURT:
That’s all right.

MRS. MORRIS:
Q. The only thing you saw was somebody pulled off the

stool?
A. That’s right. Nothing was thrown at anybody while I 

was in there.
Q. Were you able to observe during the time you were in



C. Bingham, Cr. 1619.

there?
A . Yes.

Q. You just stood there and watched them?
A. Yes, I was right there.

Q. These people who were sitting at the counter, were 
they Negroes?

A . Yes .

Q. Now, during the hour and a half, did you say it was?

A. Approximately, I donTt know, it was a good long time, 
standing around doing nothing, it was a good long time.

Q. During this time did any other people come to that 
count er?

A . No .

Q. Just these three?
A. No one else sat down.

Q. Now, on June 13th when you were at or near the Pearl 
Street Church, where were you standing at this time?

A. Well, I was all over the area. I had to move around 
quite a bit. I was on Pearl Street for awhile and then I was

on Rose Street for awhile.

Q. Now, when the group left the church, where were you?

A. I was on Rose Street.

Q. You were there when they left?

A. Yes .

Q. And when they got to Rose Street you were already there?



C . Bingham, C r . 1620 .

A . Yes.

Q. And where were you standing?

A„ Somewhere between Rose and Deer Park Street.

Q. Were you standing on the sidewalk, on the curb —
A. Yes, I was standing on the sidewalk.

Q. On the sidewalk. Now, how far from this porch that 
you described were you standing?

A. Well, that was almost a block away.
Q. So you were not near it originally?

A. Not originally. The people weren’t near it originally
either, they were at the church and when they left the _ you
asked when they left the church. I was at _

Q. ITm talking about the people who were in this protest 
procession.

A. Well they were in, — - the group that was on the porch 
was a different group than the ones that were under arrest.

Q. I am aware of that, but I asked you when the people 
went to the Pearl Street Church where you were, the people in 
the protest processionVwith flags?

A. I was on Rose Street.

what —

Q. On Rose Street, on the corner of the intersection near 

A, No, between Pearl and Deer Park.
Q. And you watched the group coming down toward you?

A . Yes .



C. Bingham, Cr 1 621 .

Q. How much time did you spend out on the street on the 
13th of June?

A. I had been there all the morning. I don’t know what 
exact time this took place, it was right around noon though I
think.

Q. Well, these incidents that you described, how long
did they take?

A. The incidents that I have described here? How long 
did they take?

Q. Yes .
A. I guess altogether about twenty or thirty minutes as

far as I can remember.

Q. Now, during this time you were moving around in the
Rose Street area?

A. Well, after the, —— when the arrests were made, I did 
not move around too much, I stayed in one area.

Q. How many people were arrested, do you know?
A. No, I don’t..

Q. Were there a large group?
A. Fairly large group.

Q. And you saw each one of them arrested?

A. Well, he told them they were all under arrest and I

don’t know whether he arrested each one individually or not, I

do not know that.
Q. But you saw the policemen go down the line and talk



C. Bingham, C r . 1622 .

to each individual —
A . I did.

Q. Now, were these people taken away from the scene?
A. Yes, finally. It was a little while before they were 

taken away.

Q. Now, the people who were on the porch, were they also 
arrested and taken away?

A. I only saw possibly two or three people arrested from 
the porch.

Q. Were they taken away with the people who had been in 
the procession?

A. Yes. Well, I think they had already been taken away, 
but, by that time, they had been loaded into a van and taken 
away .

going

were

group

Q. So that during the time tiiis p-orch incident was
on, the people who had been in the procession with flags

still in the area?
A. Well, I’m not quite sure of that.
Q. Were there other people in the area, other than the 

on the porch and the group who were in the procession?

A. Yes, there were people —
Q. Who were standing around?

A. There were a number — -
Q, A number of people standing around?

A, A number of people standing around.



C . Bingham, C r . 1623 .

Q. A lot of people in the area?
A. That’s right.

Q. A lot of people milling back and forth on porches and 
on lawns?

A. I only saw people on two different porches, milling 
about and out in the yard.

Q. So you only saw people on two porches in that whole
area?

A. No, I don’t say in the whole area —  where I was, in 
the area where I was.

Q. Well, in other areas on Rose Street adjacent
A. Well, there were a lot of people in the street and so 

I don’t know.

Q. On Rose Street adjacent to the people who had been in 
this protest procession, there were people who were observers 
on the lawns and on the sidewalk, lots of people in the area who 
were not involved in walking, just observers?

A. As I said, I only saw people on two different porches 

and in two yards.
Q. Well, then there might have been people there that you 

didn’t see?

A. That’s true.
Q. There was a lot of confusion during that time, wasn’t 

there, Mr. Bingham?
 ̂ wasn’t a great deal of confusion except that



C. Bingham, C r . 1624 .

caused by these people on the porch.
Q. Is that your opinion?
A. That is a fact.

Q. That’s how you would describe a fact?

A. I was there and I know what is a fact and what isn’t 
a fact. The only disturbance caused was by the people, -- the 
people that were under arrest were causing no disturbance.

Q. The only confusion you saw was caused this way.
A. How is that again, now?

Q. The confusion that you saw was caused by this group 
of people on the porch?

A . That is right.

Q. You didn’t see anybody else in the area causing any?
A. I did not.

Q.. But there could have been other people in the area, 
you have admitted that?

A. There could have been other people in the area, yes.
Q. And there could have been confusion in other parts of 

Rose Street?
A. There could have been a lot of confusion on Lynch 

Street, but I wasn’t around there.
Q. But on Rose Street where you were, there could have 

been confusion in other areas where you could not see it?
A. I don’t know, I wasn’t there. I can only tell you 

about the confusion I saw.



C. Bingham, Cr. 1625 .

Q. Precisely. Then we agree that there could have been 
other things going on, you are not in a position to say that 
was the only confusion going on on Rose Street, are you?

A. No. Rose Street is about a couple of miles long.

Q. You are not in a position to say that was the only 
confusion on Rose Street in the area of the demonstrations?

A. No, I am not.

How did you come to know who John Salter and Reverend
King were?

A. I had known them from other occasions.
Q. From what other occasions?

A. Well, I dontt know. They had been in other demonstra­
tions around Jackson and I got to know who they were.

Q. During the summer, or did you know who they were 
before that summer?

A. I’m not sure whether I knew them before that summer 
or not. I think I knew Ed King, but I didn’t know John Salter.

Q. And you knew them through demonstrations of civil 
rights activity?

A. Yes.
Q. Are you a native of Jackson, Mr. Bingham?

A . I am not .
Q. How long have you been in Jackson?

A. Since 1932.■
Q. And you still live in Jackson?



C . Bingham, C r . 1626 .

A. I still do.

Q. Now, on the 15th, you said you got word that a large 
group of people had broken away from the area of the funeral 
home and they were heading toward Capitol Street.

A . That’ s right.

Q. And you went around behind them to find out what was 
happening?

A . That’s right.

Q. So you don’t know, of your own knowledge, how this 
whole business started?

A. No .

Q. You got into it after it started?
A . That’s right.

Q. And during this period the policemen were walking 
from Capitol Street down Farish Street moving the crowd back?

A. That’s right.

Q. Were you in the crowd that was being pushed back?
A. Yes.

Q. And how large was that crowd?

A. I was on top of my car and, of course, I wasn’t being
moved because my car was stationary and I stayed with it.

Q. Where was your car?
A. In front of the Ferguson Furniture Company right at 

the corner of Amite Street and Farisn Street.

Q. How far is that from Capitol?



C. Bingham, Cr. 1627 .

A. A block •
Q. And how far was

»
the crowd pushed back beyond your car?

A. To Griffith Stre et.
Q. So that in the beginning you were looking a block

toward Capitol ,Street?
A. That’ s right . *

Q. And then you were looking a block or two in the ot:her
dir e ction?

A. That’ s right .

Q. So that during this time the crowd and the police were
somewhat removed from where you were since you were stationary, 
you were not moving with the group?

A. Well, the police stopped where I was. They didn’t get 
much further than that.

Q. It was coming toward you then?
A. That’s right and when they got to just past the inter­

section of Amite and Farish Street they stopped. That’s where 
all the police stopped. The crowd was then almost to Griffith 

Street and that is about as close as they ever got to one 

another .
Q. Now, during this period there was confusion in this 

area, I take it, with people being moved by the policemen?
A. I wouldn’t say there was any confusion as far as the 

jpolice were concerned. Theycweren’t making a sound and they
lowly. They never did --were moving very s



C . Bingham, C r . 1628 .

Q. And the crowd was also quiet?
A. No, the crowd was not quiet.
Q. Were they moving slowly?

A. In some instances they were and in some they weren’t.
Q. They were moving in an orderly fashion down the street?
A. Not orderly.

Q. Then there was confusion?
A. Well, if you want to call moving about all over the 

street orderly, not, —  that’s what they were doing.
Q. No, I will accept your definition, they were moving 

about all over the street.
A. Well, there was confusion. If you want to say that 

the way they were moving about, there was considerable con­
fusion. They were yelling and screaming and then they got to 
throwing bottles and bricks and I would call that confusion.

Q. I think I would too. How long did you watch this 

thing that you describe?
A. The whole time that it took place. I don’t know how 

long that was, I do not know.
Q. Did you see any arrests made?

A. No, I didn’t .

MRS. MORRIS:
I have no further questions.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

MR..TRAVIS:



C. Bingham, Redir. 1629.

Q. Mr. Bingham, where were you when this catsup, on the 
2 8th of May, where were you when this catsup and mustard epi­
sode happened?

A. I was at home.

Q. That was before you got there, or after you left?
A. That was after I left.
Q. Now, on the 13th on this porch, did you see King 

thrust or struck in any way by any member of the Police Depart­
ment, or anybody else?

A. I certainly did not.
Q. Was he?
A. No .

Q. Now, where are you from originally?
A. Newton.

Q. Mississippi?
A . That1s right.

MR. TRAVIS:
That1 s all. We would like to call Mr. W. C. Shoemaker. 

MRS. MORRIS:
If the Court please before you —  Mr. Travis, I 

have the same objection with reference to this witness that we 

made for the last one.

THE COURT:
I will make the same ruling and grant you the right 

which I indicated to call any additional witness to respond to



W. C. Shoemaker, Dr. 1630.

this testimony.

MR. W. C. SHOEMAKER
called as a witness for the Defendants, and after having been 
duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
MR. TRAVIS:

Q. Would you state your name, pleas e sir, age and
your addr ess?

A. W. C. Sho emaker, I»m 3 2, and I 1ive at 232 Mane:hest e
in Ja ckson .

Q. By whom are you employed?
A. The Jackson Daily News.

Q. How 1ong have you been employed by the J ackson Daily
News?

A. For fourteen and one-half years, except for two year
military leave during the Korean War.

Q. What is your employment with the Jacks on Daily News?
A. I am a reporter.

Q. What type of reporting do you do generally?

A. Well, almo st anything that comes along •

Q. Have you been a reporter during these fourteen and a

half year s?
A. During most of this time, yes.

Q. Here in the City of Jackson?

A . Yes .



W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1631.

Q. IT11 ask you, Mr. Shoemaker, if you had occasion to 
cover an assignment on May the 28th near Woolworth’s store here 
in the City of Jackson?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And where is that store located?

A. I believe it’s in the 100 block of East Capitol Street 
downtown.

Q* All right. What caused you to be in this area or at 
this store on this occasion, on May the 28th?

A. I was sent there in anticipation of some sort of 
racial demonstration.

Q. All right, sir. Had somebody given you some informa­
tion on it?

A. Somebody had telephoned.
Q. Now, What did you observe when you arrived, —  what 

time of day was this when you got there?
A. About 10:00 o*clock in the morning.
Q. What did you observe, what happened while you were

there?
A. Well, for awhile, nothing. Several other reporters 

gathered around and we stood around and gossiped with each other 

and about 11:00 o'clock, about 11, several colored people came 

in and took seats at the lunch counter.
Q. Now, what happened after that?
A The store closed! the lunch counter and the crowd



W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1632.

started coming around inside and a lot of, —  quite a bit of 
hollering; the people sitting at the counter, they just sat 
there, they weren’t served any food. They stayed there and 
just chatted back and forth with each other. People gathered 
around and dumped some mustard and catsup and some sugar on 
their heads and stuff like that.

Q. All right, sir. Did you have occasion to talk to the 
manager of the store on this occasion?

A. I spoke with him once, yes.

Q. And what was the nature of your conversation with him? 
MRS. MORRIS:

Your Honor, I am going to object to conversation with 
the manager. This is hearsay.

THE COURT :
IT11 sustain the objection.

MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Did the manager take any action to get the police in 

the building during this period of time?

A. None that I saw.
jj. Did you make any effort to determine whether or not 

he was going to ask the police in to handle this crowd?

A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you determine and how?
A. Well, I did not determine, —  the police did not 

enter, but I don’t know w£y, from him, I don’t know why.



W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1633 .

Q. Now, what did you do then?
A. I stayed in the store until probably about 12:00

o’clock or a few minutes after and then I left and came back 
toward the office.

Q. All right. Did you see any police outside that you 
recognized?

A. Yes, I saw several out in automobiles and also on the
sidewalk; Chief Ray and quite a few others.

Q. Who is Chief Ray?
A. Chief J . L. Ray, I believe he is with the Police

Department.

Q. What action was he taking, if any, at that time?
A. None .

Q. Do you know why?
A. I know why he said.

Q. What was that?

MRS. MORRIS:

THE COURT:

Your Honor, I object to what Chief Ray said.
•
■

I’ll sustain the objection.

MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Now, directing your attention to May 3lst, 1963, the 

time when some 322 persons were arrested on Farish Street here 

in the City of Jackson, did you observe that?

A . Yes, I did .



W. C.Shoemaker, Dir. 1634.

Q. What time of day was this, do you recall?

A. It was a little bit after 4 in the afternoon.

Q. How did you come to have this assignment, how did you 
get that?

A. Most of the news folks in Jackson were there or were 
aware of it from one source or another that there was going to 
be a demonstration on Farish Street and I was among those who 
were aware and went.

Q. All right, sir. Did you see any official or officer 
of the NAACP in this group at that time?

A . Yes, I did .

Q. Who was that?

A. Well, when the demonstration began the man who was in 
front of it was Willie Ludden, who has identified himself actu­
ally as youth worker with the NAACP.

Q. Now, did you see him on that occasion?
A . Yes, I did .

Q. What was he doing in regard to this parade or whatever 
it was they were having?

A. He was the first man in the line. He was the leader 

of the parade, really.
Q. What happened?
A. Well, do you mean what happened in the demonstration?

Q. Yes, just where it began and what happened up to the

time the arrests were made?



W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1635

A. Well, it was a little bit after four and a crowd of 
mostly young people, student age people with Willie Ludden in

front, came out of the church, the Farish Street Baptist Church, 
started down the sidewalk two or three abreast, toward Capitol 
Street about four blocks away. Some had banners, some had flags 

some had nothing. There was about twenty-five or thirty of them 
lined up and then behind them they weren’t really in rows any 
more, there were just great numbers.

Q. Where were these people in regard to streets and side­
walks?

A. The first ones who were lined up were on the western
sidewalk.

Q. That’s the one that Willie Ludden was leading?
A . That’s right .

Q. And what about the other group, where were they?
A. They were on the sidewalk and in the street, behind 

that first group.

Q. Were they moving all in the same direction?
A. Yes, they were.

Q. And which direction were they moving in?

A. South .

Q. That would be toward Capitol Street?

A. Toward Capitol Street.

Q. What did you observe then?

A. Well, there was about, —  at the first block below



W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1636.

the church, south of the church, there was a delegation of 

policemen lined up across the street there. Just before they 

came,-the crowd that Ludden was leading got to those policemen, 
Chief Ray went up toward the group and talked to them, I don’t 
know what was said, and they kept walking.

Q. Did they stop walking while he was talking to them?
A. No, they didn’t.
Q. What happened then?

A. Well, they kept walking and when they reached the 
line of policemen, Ludden turned his shoialder sidewise and just 
pushed into the crowd, —  into the policemen. Then, there was 
a lot of singing and chanting after that.

Q. Now, what happened in regard to this Ludden? Would 
you describe in detail exactly how he put his shoulder down and 

went into the police line.

A. Well, he was on the sidewalk and the police were 

actually from one building on one side of the street to the 

buildings on the other side of the street.

Q. Shoulder to shoulder?
A. Shoulder to shoulder, had the street completely blocked. 

He turned his shoulder in to them kind of like, I guess maybe 

like a football player, and just pushed his way in there and 

when he did two or three police grabbed, him and whacked him 

across the legs with bight sticks.
Q. How many times was he whacked on the legs?



W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1637.

A. I think I saw him hit twice.
Q. Did you s ee h:im struek any place other than the legs?
A. No, I d:idn»t.
Q. Wa s there any more f 0rce used by the police on this

o cca sion than wa s aibsolut ely necessary under the circumstances?
MRS. MORRIS:

Your Honor, I object to the form of that question.
THE COURT:

I’ll let y-ou rephrase it.
MR. TRAVIS:

Q. You saw what happened there on this occasion with the 
police and this Ludden, do you have an opinion as to whether or 
not the police used any more force than was necessary to stop 
Ludden on this occasion?

MRS, MORRIS:

Your Honor, I object to that on the grounds that it 
is not only leading, but it calls for an opinion.

THE COURT :

Sustained.

MR. TRAVIS:
Now, did you see Ludden on any other occasion on that

day?

A. I saw him that night.
Q. And this was about what time in the afternoon that this 

happ ened?



W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1638

A. Probably 4:30 by the time this happened.

Q. And where did you see him that night?

A. I saw him at the Masonic Temple on Lynch Street.
Q. What was going on there?

A. There was a mass rally in protest of these arrests.
Q. And who was sponsoring this mass rally?
A. I think, —  I’m not sure if they specifically were 

sponsoring it, it was the Jackson Movement, they call them­
selves. It was an organization of the NAACP and several other 
group s .

Q. Now, you told the Court that you saw Ludden that night 
Under what circumstances did you see him?

A. He addressed the rally.

Q. What was the nature of his remarks?

A. He told of being arrested and of being whipped by the 
police.

Q. Did he evidence any signs that night, were there any 

visible marks on him that you could see?

A. None. None that I saw.
Q. None that you saw? What are the newspapers, -- the 

general circulation here in the City of Jackson, Mr . Shoemaker?
A. The dailies are the Jackson Daily News and the Clarion 

Ledger published here. Weeklies are the Jackson Times, the 

Jackson Advocate, the Mississippi Free Press and the Northside 
I believe those are all published within the city.R eport er .



W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1639.

Q. All right. What is the Jackson Advocate?
A. It is published weekly with news about Negroes.
Q. Is it published by Negroes?
A . Yes it is .

Q. And you say this paper has a general circulation here 
in the City of Jackson?

A. Yes, it has been published here for quite a number of
years .

Q. Does it express the Negro viewpoint?
A. It has been recognized as such in the past, yes.
Q. I hand you two copies of the Jackson Advocate, one 

dated Saturday, June 22nd, 1963, and the other Saturday, June 
29th, 1963, and ask you if these two are representative of the 

Jackson Advocate?

MR. BELL :
Your Honor, these papers haven’t been identified as 

exhibits or anything else and we would generally object to them 
on the basis that, assuming they are being put on for tfe rea­

sons that they appear to be, similar testimony by the Plain­

tiffs was held not admissable.

THE COURT:
What was your question?

MR. TRAVIS:
I asked him if, —  would you read the question back

please?



W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1640.

THE REPORTER:

I hand you two copies of the Jackson Advocate, one 
dated Saturday, June 22nd, 1963, and the other Saturday, June 
29th, 1963, and ask you if these two are representative of the 
Jackson Advocate?
THE COURT :

I sustain the objection.
MR, TRAVIS:

Q. Now, can you identify those as being copies of the 
Jackson Advocate?

A . Yes, I can.

Q. They both are copies of the Jackson Advocate?
A . Yes, they are.

MR, TRAVIS:

\ ic wculd like to offer those as an exhibit to Mr. 
Shoemakerts testimony at this point.

MR, BELL:
Same objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT:
Do you want to state your objection specifically?

MR. BELL:
We can’t see what the relevance is of offering 

these as exhibits and it appears that the Court held similar 
offers by the Plaintiffs as irrelevant to the issues in

the case.



V. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1641.

THE COURT:

And you are now convinced of that, are you?
MR. BELL:

I m not convinced of it, no, but I’m convinced that
I could object to allowing them to put in testimony that we were 
not allowed to put in.
THE COURT:

Yes, I’ll sustain the objection. I’ll let those two 
newspapers be marked exhibit, —  what is the number?
MR. WATKINS:

Your Honor, will you hear me before you rule on that?
THE COURT:

Yes .
MR. WATKINS:

Those papers are not being offered to prove the truth 
of anything said in either one of them. They are being offered 

because these people have made a great show, attempt to show in 

this case that there are no outlets for the expression of their 
opinion in the City of Jackson and, therefore, that they have 
to get on the street and demonstrate and do what we think are 

unlawful acts in order to convey their opinion to other people. 
Now we want to show, and we think we are entitled to show, that 

there is a regular, the largest Negro weekly in the State of 

Mississippi is published here in the City of Jackson, and these 

two copies of it are merely being offered in evidence to show



W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1642.

that they do have an outlet for their opinion and don’t 
get on the streets.

have to

THE COURT:

Yes. Well, I’ll sustain the objection to the papers 
themselves. That*s exactly the argument that your opponent made 
to offer the white newspapers in evidence. I donTt think they 

are evidence. You’ve got this witness on the stand and if what 
you say is true, ask him about it. They may be marked for 
identification.

'  4k

(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as No. D~53.)
MR. TRAVIS:

Your witness.
THE COURT:

My ruling is that you can ask him about what you have 
stated, Mr. Watkins, is a fact if you want to.
MR. WATKINS:

We think we have already shown by him that this is a 
paper published in the City of Jackson by Negroes and that it 

reflects Negro opinion, but my thought was at least without 
attempting to put in one word of truth of anything that is in 

either paper, just to show the type of paper it is. That was 

the only purpose we offered it for.

THE COURT:

All right .
CROSS EXAMINATION



W. C. Shoemaker, Cr . 1643.

MR. BELL:

Q. Mr. Shoemaker, are you a resident of the City of 
J ackson?

A . Yes, I am.

Q. How long have you been a resident of Jackson?
A. Fourteen and a half years.
Q. And your race is what?
A . Whit e .

Q. And the name of the newspaper you work for is what?
A. The Jackson Daily News.

Q. Now you indicate that on May 31st when the group left 
the Farish Street Church and began going down the sidewalk that 

there was a certain group of this , —  a certain part of this 
group that was walking in two’s and three’s on the sidewalk, is 
that right?

A. That’s right, the first part was.

Q. About how many people were in the first part?

A. As best I remember, about twenty or twenty-five, maybe.

Q. Now, where were you at this time when they came out 

of the church?
A. Standing across the street, on the opposite side of 

Farish Street from them.
q . And when they began coming out of the church and 

heading toward Capitol Street, did you move your position at 

all then, at that time?



W. C. Shoemaker, Cr. 1644.

A. Yes, I came down the street on the opposite side of 
the street from them.

Q. Sort of following along with this group?
A. Possibly even with them, or maybe a little ahead of

them.

Q. Bid you observe when the police formed their line 
clear across the street with the men shoulder to shoulder that 
you described?

A. The line was there at about the same time that the 
demonstrators came out of the church.

Q. The line was already, —— sc the police were formed 
across the way when Ludden led his group out of the church, is 
that correct?

A. To the best I recall, yes. I know the line was there 
before they reached the line, —  before they reached the point 

where the police lined up. They were already there, the police 
were already lined up.

Q. Now, it is correct that Farish Street, that this 

demonstration was being held on, is a one-way street as far as 
vehicular traffic is concerned, is that correct?

A. ThatTs right, yes.
Q. And the one-way direction is away from Capitol Street?

A . That1s right.
Q. So that at the point that the police formed a line 

there it was not going to be possible for any further vehicles



W. C. Shoemaker, C r . 1645.

to get down the street toward a point where the demonstrators 
were coming, is that correct?

A. I believe that’s right, the police did not let 
traffic through there.

Q. Now, you indicated that the first twenty, or twenty- 
five or thirty were marching two or three abreast, that as the 
rest of the group followed from the church they were not as 
well lined up, is that right?

A . That’s right .
Q. Bid you notice subsequently that a large number of 

these people were arrested?
A . Yes .
Q. Did you notice whether any of the persons who were in 

two’s and three’s were arrested?

A. Yes, they were.
Q. You indicated that from your vantage point it seemed 

that Willie Ludden pushed into the line of policemen.

A . That’s right „
Q. Did you hear Willie Ludden say anything to the police­

men before moving into their ranks?
A. No, I didn’t, I was on the opposite corner. There was

a street between us and I did not hear, —-
Q. You would not have been able to hear them say anything

to him either, is that right?

A. No, I wouldn’t.



W. C. Shoemaker, C r . 1646.

Q. And, you indicate that after Ludden pushed into the 
group that the policemen surrounded him.

A. Yes, he turned his shoulder into them and pushed into 
the policemen and was grabbed and carried away after that.

Q. Well now, at what point was he struck by the police­
men with these night sticks?

A. When he pushed into them, when he kind of, it was 
very much like an athlete really, I mean he turned his shoulder 
and kind of, was getting an extra yard into the line really.

Q. Now, did you see him struck twice with the night
stick?

A . Yes, I did .

Q. You indicated that as far as you were able to see 
that he had not been struck more than twice, is that right?

A. I saw him struck not more than twice, across the legs 
below the knees.

Q. But at this point the police had closed in on Ludden?
A. No, this happened just when he went into the line of 

poli c emen .
Q. Can you say as a matter of fact whether or not other 

policemen may have struck him at other places besides on his 

legs?
A. I didn’t see any others.
Q. But you can’t say as a matter of fact that he wasn’t 

struck at any other place, by others than those that you saw?



W. C. Shoemaker, C r . 1647 .

A. Not for sure, no. I saw them take him out of the 
crowd of policemen, out of the lines of policemen to a paddy 
wagon, but as he passed through there I didn’t see him.

Q. When you saw Ludden later that evening, did you see a 
bandage on his head?

A. I believe he had a band-aid over one eye.
Q. A band-aid?
A. A band-aid.

Q. Was it a good sized band-aid?
A. The best I recall, it was just an ordinary tan-colored 

band-aid .

Q. So probably you couldn’t notice any marks because at 
least there was a band-aid that might, or might not, have been 

covering up some of the marks?
A. There was one band-aid, yes.
Q. Now, you indicated that the Baily News and Clarion 

Ledger are daily newspapers in Jackson.

A . That’s right.
Q. What is the circulation of those newspapers?

A. I don’t know exactly.

Q. Approximately?
A. Probably 55 to 60 thousand each.
Q. Now, do you happen to know what the approximate 

circulation of the Jackson Advocate is?

A. I have no idea.



V. C. Shoemaker, C r . 1648.

Q. Do you have any idea who the editor of that newspaper
is?

A . Y e s .

Q. Who is it?
A. Percy Green.

Q. You indicated that in your opinion the Jackson Advo­
cate expresses the Negro viewpoint. What is the basis for that 
stat ement?

A. Well, he has for a great many years
Q. He has for a great many years what?

A. Expressed a Negro viewpoint, the viewpoint that he pro­
claimed to be the Negro viewpoint.

Q. Are you taking his word for it then?

A. I have no other person’s word to take, but his.
Q. So your whole basis for saying that the Jackson Advocate 

is the Negro viewpoint is based on what you have understood 
Percy Green, the editor of that newspaper, to say is the Negro 

viewpoint, is that right?
A. Well, he deals with the problems specific to that group 

of people, advertisements aimed directly at them, —
Q. Would you please just answer the question?

A. Well, I am trying to do that.
Q. .Well, -answer my first question and then if you want 

explain it —  my question is whether or not the basis for your 

statement that the Jackson Advocate expresses the Negro viewpoint



W. C. Shoemaker, Cr „ 1649.

is based on what you have heard Percy Green, as editor, say 
its viewpoint is?

A. Not altogether.
Q. Was that part of it?
A. Part of it, yes.

Q. All right, now, what is the rest of the basis?
A. Well, like I started to tell you, he deals in the

problems of that race, his advertisements, his news columns are 
aimed specifically at members of that race; he has in the past 
spoken at meetings at which problems concerning the Negro race 
were the primary subject.

Q. Have you ever noted the viewpoint that Percy
Green takes in these speeches or in his paper as to the problems 
of the Negro in civil rights?

A. Yes, both in recent years and as much as ten or fif­

teen years ago .
Q. I would like for you to refer to recent years, what 

his viewpoint has been?.if you know?
A. I have read some of his editorials, yes.
Q. In your opinion, what is the viewpoint on civil rights 

and the Negro question?

MR. WATKINS:
If it please the Court, at this point I am going to 

object now. Percy Greents viewpoint as an editor is best 

expressed and the best evidence of it is in those two exhibits



W. C. Shoemaker, C r . 1650.

that we offered and had marked and identified right there on —  
MR. BELL:

We have already excluded that, but we haven’t been able 
to exclude the statement, Your Honor, that the Jackson
Advocate expresses the Negro viewpoint, and that’s what I am 
trying to get at now.
THE COURT :

I’ll let him answer.
THE WITNESS:

Would you ask me again, I’m sorry --
MR. BELL:

Q. Well, let me ask you this —
THE COURT:

Again, I’m afraid we are getting right into that area 
where you tried to get, as Plaintiff, -- you try to wedge your 
way back into that same area where the Court has denied you 

access .
MR. BELL:

Your Honor, I just want to clear up this item of —

THE COURT:
All right, I’ll let you clear it, go ahead.

MR. BELL:
Q. As a matter of fact, Mr. Shoemaker, did you know that 

Mr. Green is not well thou ght of in the Negro c ommunit y a nd i s 

thought to receive money to publish his paper from the White



W. C. Shoemaker, Cr. 1651.

Citizens Council and other segregation groups?
A. I have heard that within the last couple of years, 

however, at other times I have heard that he is well thought of 
by some groups.

Q. Well, have you heard in the last few years that he is not well
/thought of and, as a matter of fact, it is thought in the Negro 
community that he receives money to publish his paper from the 
White Citizens Council and other segregation groups?
MR. WATKINS:

If it please the Court, we object to this as hearsay.
THE COURT :

I’ll sustain the objection.
MR. BELL:

Q. Do you know what, if any, circulation of the Jackson 
Advocate goes into the white community?

A . No, I don’t .

Q. Would you say it is small, or large?

A. I don’t have any idea.

Q. Then you wouldn’t know if any of the Jackson Advocate 

circulation is in the white community?
A. I only know of one. That’s the one we get at our 

office. Other than that, I don’t know.

MR. BELL:
No further questions.

MR. TRAVIS:



( B . Armstrong, Dir) 1652.

That’s all. Thank you, Mr. Shoemaker.

We call Chief Beavers Armstrong.

MR. BEAVERS ARMSTRONG
called as a witness for the Defendants, after being duly sworn, 
testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
MR. TRAVIS:

Qo Would you state your name, age, and address, please?
A. Beavers Armstrong, 50 years old, 1109 Palmyra Street,

Jackson, Mississippi.

Q. By whom are you employed?
A. City of Jackson Police Department.

Q. How long have you been employed by the Police Depart-
mentvof the City of Jackson?

A. Twenty-one years and ten months.

Q. Are you a law enforcement officer?

A. I am, sir.

Q. Have you been a law enforcement officer during this

period of time?

A . I have, sir.

Q. Has your twenty-one years of service been continuous?

A. With the exception of the time that I was in service.

Q. How long was that, Chief?

A. About eleven months.

Q. Do you hold any position in the Police Department of



B. Armstrong, Dir. 1653.

the City- of Jackson?

A. I am a Deputy Chief of Police.
Q. Deputy Chief of Police?
A. That’s right, sir.

Q. Would you tell the Court what your duties are generally 
as the Deputy Chief of Police?

A. I am in charge of traffic and the co-ordinator of all 
special- events.

Q. What do you mean, special events?

A. Parades, football games, basketball games, activities 
at the fair ground and so on and so forth.

Q. All right, sir. Now, did you hold this rank of Deputy 
Chief during the summer of 1963 and particularly during the 
months of May and June, 1963?

A. I did, sir.

Q. Chief Armstrong, directing your attention to June the 
12th, were you on duty that day?

A. I was, sir.

Q. And did you have occasion to be in the vicinity of 

Lynch and Poindexter Streets?

A. I was, sir.
Q. Were you there in your capacity as Deputy Chief of 

Police of the City of Jackson?

A . I was.
Q. Were there other officers with you or were you alone?



B. Armstrong, Dir. 1654.

A. I had a detail of men with me out there.

Q. Would you tell His Honor how you came to be in this 
Lynch and Poindexter area? First, let me ask you this. These 

streets, this intersection and both of these streets, do they 
lie in the City of Jackson, within the city limits of the City 
of Jackson?

A. They are.

Q. All right, sir. Where generally is Lynch and Poindex­
ter, in what part of town?

A. Southwest Jackson. Lynch Street runs east and west 
and Poindexter runs north and south.

Q. Would you describe the streets?

A. Lynch Street is approximately forty-five feet wide at 
Lynch and Poindexter. It has a sidewalk on each side in that 

area. The sidewalk is approximately ten feet wide. Poindexter 

Street is approximately twenty-seven feet wide. On the south 

side of Lynch Street, on the west side, it has a sidewalk about 
six or possibly seven feet wide. Poindexter jaggers, when it 

comes out into Lynch Street it moves to the east about fifty feet 
and runs north approximately the same width of the street with a 

sidewalk on the east side.
q . Now, as far as Lynch Street, Lynch Street is one of 

the more heavily traveled thoroughfares in the City of Jackson, 

is it not?

A. It is, sir.



B. Armstrong, Dir. 1655.

Q. Now, are there sidewalks on both sides of Lynch Street?
A. At Poindexter, it is sir.

Q. And would you describe Lynch Street as a wide street? 
You have already told us how wide is was, but in comparison with 
the streets generally, is it a wide street?

A. Well, certain areas J)f -Lynch Street, we restrict park­
ing in the mornings and in the afternoons so as to be able to 
move the amount of traffic that has to move through there.

Qo. All right sir, insofar as this particular area is con­
cerned?

A. It is in that area.

Q. What was the occasion, and why, and how did you come 
to be in this area of town?

A. I received a call over the radio at approximately 1:00 
o’clock in the afternoon on June the 12th that a group of people 
had moved out of the Masonic Temple and moved out into the street 
and was marching east on Lynch Street towards the city. I imme­
diately went to that area and called a detail of men to meet me 

there .

Q. All right, sir, and where did you go?

A. I went to Lynch and Poindexter and stopped.

Q. How many men did you have under your command there on 

the scene at the time, —  were there any arrests made on this 

occa sion?

A. There was.



B. Armstrong, Dir. 1656.

Q. At the time of the arrests, approximately how many men 
did you have?

A. Approximately fifty-five men.

Q. All right, sir. Now, what did you do when you first 
got to this location?

A. I looked west when I got out of the car, when I first 
got to this location, I looked west on Lynch Street. Traffic 
between Poindexter and Rose Street was congested; what cars was 
in there was congested at that time. I saw approximately 200 
people in parade formation marching toward me, beyond Rose Street, 
coming toward me at that time. They were out in the middle of 
the street. They varied anywhere from six abreast down to two 
abreast. They were marching down the middle of the street, had 

traffic tied up, —  what traffic was in that area was tied up and 

couldn* t move .
Q. All right, sir, and did these people stay in the middle 

of the street then as they approached you?

A. They did, sir.

Q. What did you then do?
A. When those people approached me and the detail of men 

that I had there, we set up a scrimmage line; we stopped this 

group of people. I asked them on two different occasions did

they have a permit to parade.
Q. How did you go about this, Chief?

A. I used a loud speaker, or a bullhorn.



B. Armstrong, Dir. 1657.

Q. How far could that bullhorn be heard?
A. I would say approximately two blocks, maybe three.
Q. Then all of this 200 people could hear everything you 

said on this bullhorn?

A. I will say they could, sir.
Q. And what did you say?

A. I asked them did they have a permit to parade.
Q. How many times did you ask them that?

A. I asked them that on two different occasions.
Q. Well, did they have a permit to parade?
A. No one produced a permit to parade.

Q. Let me ask you this, Ckief. In your capacity as Traf­
fic Superintendent of the police, are you notified in every 
instance in which a permit to parade is issued by the Mayor and 
City Council of Jackson?

A . Yes sir.

Q. Was a permit in fact issued on this occasion to this 
group or any other group to have a parade in this area of town, 

or anywhere else?

A. No sir.
Q. Now, go ahead. You told us that you asked them twice 

if they had a permit to parade and they didn’t have one, and what

happened then, at that point?
A. I asked them then to disperse and move out of the 

street. I’d say approximately from 50 to 55 did disperse, moved



out of the street, moved back up on the sidewalk. I waited some 
half a minute, or a minute approximately, I asked them to disperse 
again, giving them ample time to get out of the street if they 

would. They continued to stay in the formation, the group that I 
arrested continued to stay in the formation out in the street.
They continued to violate the law in my presence. I placed them 
under arrest and told my men to take them into custody.

Q. All right, Chief. Now, how many persons did you 
arrest on this occasion?

A. 146.

Q. Can you tell me how many of that 146 were adults and 
how many were juveniles?

A. There was 72 adults and there was 74 juveniles.
Q. Did you have all of these persons, —  how many did you 

say, 146 —  did you have all of these 146 persons under observa­
tion and in your sight during the time of the arrest?

A. I did, sir.
Q. And could you see all of your men in the vicinity of 

these people who were arrested?

A. I could, sir.
Q. Was there any instance in which police used their clubs 

in any way, or night sticks?

A. No sir, there was not.
Q. And, did you have any difficulty with the arrests in

B. Armstrong, Dir. 1658.

any form, fashion, or shape?



B. Armstrong, Dir, .1659,

A. None whatsoever.
Q. Bid you see Reverend King on that occasion, anywhere 

in that area?
A.

Q.
A.

and moved 
where they 

a hundred 

Q.

At a distance.
And where was he?

After they were arrested, placed in the patrol wagon, 
out, I moved up the street approximately a block from 
were arrested and I did see Reverend King approximately 
yards back up the street.

All right, sir. Now, were there any flags in this
group?

A. Yes sir, there were.

Q. Well, did they have anything else, other than flags?
A. Nothing but flags.

Q. All right, sir. Now, what, if anything, did you have 
done in relation to these flags?

A. I had my men to take the flags and we taken them to 
Headquarters, to the police station like we do any other thing 

that we confiscate when we make an arrest. They were tagged, 

and they are tagged, and placed at Headquarters now.
Q. All right, sir, and they there tagged for identifica­

tion for use in any State Court action?

A. That’s right, sir.
q . Were any of these flags torn, or in any way mutilated,

by the police officers?



B. Armstrong, Dir. 1660.

A. None at all, sir.

Q. And you saw all these flags removed by your officers? 
MR. BELLs

That’s a leading question, Your Honor —
THE WITNESS:

A . I did, sir.
MR a BELL «

He can answer, Your Honor, without counsel leading him
like that.
THE COURT:

I’ll sustain the objection.
MR. TRAVIS:

Q. Let me ask you this, Chief Armstrong. Were you on 
duty on June 15th?

A . I wa s .
Q. Were you in your capacity as Deputy Chief of Police?

A . I wa s, sir .
Q. All right, sir. Now, did you become involved in your 

line of duty in any particular incident that happened on this day? 

A. I did, sir.
Q. What was this, what time, and what were the circum­

stances generally?
A. It happened on Farish Street and it was at the end of 

the mournful parade of the Medgar Evers funeral march.
Q. All right • Now, what happened to these after the



B. Armstrong, Dir. 1661.

parade, —  the funeral procession?

A. This group of people who had followed this funeral pro­
cession to the funeral home up there, must have been some 3,500 
or 4,000 of them approximately in that area. Shortly after we 
pulled the escort in there, they removed Medgar Evers* body, 
taken it into the funeral home, this mob went completely wild up 
there.

Q. Now, in what manner did they go wild and where was 
this that you are talking about, Chief?

A. Well, it started in front of the funeral home, in 
approximately the 400 block of Farish Street, they moved back 

down Farish Street towards Capitol Street, just taking the whole 
street as they come back down through there shouting, and push­

ing, and running, and hollering and carrying on, like a .bunch of 
wild people.

Q. Where were you during this time, Chief?
A. Well, at the starting of it, I was on the north end 

because I had led the funeral procession from the Temple to the 

funeral home. I got back down Farish Street as far as as 
Griffith Street and when this group had moved back towards the 

city, just two blocks from Capitol Street, I went west on 

Griffith Street and come around and got into Amite Street, Amite 

and Farish Street, and about, I would say, it was approximately 

two blocks of people in the street. The block was full from 

Capitol Street back to Farish Street shouting and hollering,



B. Armstrong, Dir. 1662.

throwing brick:s and bottles and so on and then from Farish Street
back nearly to Griffith Street, that whole block wa s full.

Q. Well, now, who were they throwing these bricks, glass
bottles and so on at?

A. They were throwing at the police .
Q. All right, now, what precipitated or bro ught this

action on that these people wer e engaged in, do you know?
A. I don’t know, sir. They just went wild up there.
Q. Now , what did you do then, Chief?
A. Chief Ray and I,—  I stayed at Amite Street and Farish

Street unt il they moved the biggest part of these people back up
Farish Str e et. They went back north on Farish Stre et, I moved
up Fari. sh Stre et then to Griffith Street and I had a detail of
men on traf f ic under my jurisdiction; I had all traffic blocked
out of thi s ar ea . Chief Ray on this occasion was in charge of
the detail of men down there. After they moved back up past
Griffith Street, approximately 100 or 150 feet, I was in the 
position where I could see back up there. They were standing out 

in the street throwing bricks, bottles and everything else at the 
police where the police had their scrimmage line set up at 

Griffith Street.
Q. All right, Chief, go ahead and tell us then what 

happened after that?
A. A gentleman, who I later met and talked to, a Mr.

John Doar—



B. Armstrong, Dir. 1663.

Q. B-o-a-r?
A. Yes sir . — - Came up and —
Q. Who was he, Chief?

A. He is with the Justice Department.
Q. Attorney General?

A. Attorney General’s office. He came up and I did see 
he and Chief Ray talking together and Mr. Doar, —  they were still 
throwing bricks and bottles toward the police. Mr. Doar and 
Chief Ray talked together, —  that was a distance and I didn’t 
know anything that was said between them. Mr. Doar left then, 
left Chief Ray, went towards this mob of people that was throwing 
bricks and bottles and I don’t know what was said up there at all, 
but the group broke up and moved out. In the meantime, the 

street was littered with bricks, glass and things. I had called 
the Sanitary Department; they had brought a water truck down 

there. This water truck was under my jurisdiction because I had 
called him there. I told him that I wanted him to wash the 

street. He made an effort to wash Farish Street after the crowd 
had moved out of the street.

We had moved all of our men out of there at that time. 

Chief Ray and I had discussed it. He had moved all of his men 

out. I had moved the biggest part of mine out of the area, still 

having the area blocked out with traffic men and I was going to 

wash the street where traffic could flow through there without 

getting bricks and bottles in their tires and so on; getting



B. Armstrong, Dir. 1664.

their car tires tore up. This truck made one, --  this water

truck made one trip up through there and they started throwing at 
it. I was in a position where I could see. The truck came back 
down to where I was at. I moved this truck out of there and I 
was one of the last to leave that area after we had cleared all 
of our men out and, as you know, Farish Street is a one-way 
street going north; I didn’t make an effort to go north. I come 
back down Farish Street the wrong way.

People were walking up and down the sidewalk cussing, 
and jeering at us --

Q. Who was this that was cussing and jeering at you?
A. People on the sidewalk in Farish Street, they were 

cussing at us and jeering at us and telling us to get out of 
there and all with cuss words, and we moved out of the area.

Q. Now, in your almost 22 years as a police officer, have 
you ever seen anything that equaled this situation?
MR. BELL:

Your Honor, we object.

THE COURT:

Overruled .

THE WITNESS:
A. No sir, I never have.

MR. TRAVIS:
Your witness.

CROSS EXAMINATION



B. Armstrong, C r . 1665.

MRS. MORRIS:

Q. Chief Armstrong, when parade permits are refused, do 
you know about it?

A. Normally I would.

Q. Do you know that a parade permit had been refused to 
Medgar Evers during the summer?

A . I did not.

Q. You didn’t know that? On this Lynch Street incident,
I have forgotten the date of it —  June 12th, you said you were 

at Lynch and Poindexter?

A. That’s where I went to, yes mam.
Q. How far was that from the Masonic Temple?

A. It’s approximately two, you might say, three blocks.
Q. Three blocks from the Masonic Temple?
A. Uh huh.

Q. Now, this is a Negro neighborhood, isn’t it, Lynch 

Street in this area?

A . That’s right.

Q. Now, you say you watched the arrests after you stopped 

the people?

A . I did .
Q. And your police line was across from sidewalk to side­

walk?
A. After I arrested the people, my police line moved around 

out in the street and when they brought them out, theythe group



B. Armstrong, Cr. 1666.

taken them out and loaded them in the paddy wagon.

Q u are getting ahead of me though. You did set up a
line across the street?

A . I di d .

Q. And you set that up as soon as you saw the people 
coming --

A . That *s right.

Q. Now, at the time that you stopped them and placed them 
under arrest, where were you with reference to the line that was 
across the street?

A. Standing right side of the line.

Q. Where you stood were you on the sidewalk or on the
street?

A. I was on the street.

Q. You were on the street. Now, did you stay in that same 
po sition?

A. I stayed in that same position until after I placed 
them under arrest and I was in a position so that I could see 

everything that went on the whole time that the activity out there 
at Lynch and Poindexter was going on.

Q. Now, you had some 100 and some people marching -down flie 

street, right?

A. They moved down close to —

Q. Now, you say they, you mean your police or the people?

A. The people moved down close to my line of men. When



B. Armstrong, Cr . 1667 .

I made my arrests, I told my men to take them in custody.
Part of my men went up one side, part of them stayed in front, I 
stayed in a corner where I could see what was going on all the 
time.

Q. So your policemen were actually surrounding the group?
A. They had them in a kind of shape.

Q. So that you were at one point and the police line was
going up one way and then another?

A. And I was in a position where I could see over the 
whole thing.

Q. Now, did you stay stationary all during the time the 
arrests were being made?

A . I did not.

Q. You had to walk up and down --

A. I walked around so I could see what was going on.
Q. So at times when you walked in one direction, you

couldn’t see what was going on in the other direction --
A. I was looking towards the group at all times.
Q. I know you were looking toward the group, but can you 

say with absolute assurance that you saw everything that went on 

on that street at that time?
A. In that particular area where the arrest was made, I

can.
Q. You saw each one of them arrested^

A. I arrested the group myself.



B. Armstrong, Cr. 1668.

Q. I know that, but I meant each one of them taken into 
custody?

A . I did.

Q. Respite the fact that you were walking around, you are 
sure of this?

A . I a m  sure of that.

Q. Is this the only arrest that you have participated in, 
Chief Armstrong?

A . It i s not .

Q. Which other ones did you participate in?

A. I participated in a group of preachers on Pearl Street.

Q. That was the group that the charges were later dropped 
against?

A . That’ s right.

Q. And those are the only two?
A . That’s right.

Q. Now, on the 15th, you had left the area of Farish 

Street and you went around and came up Griffith Street to see what 

had happened when this trouble started?
A. No, I didn’t, -- I didn’t say that. I said that I was 

in the area of Farish Street and I followed this mob of people 

who had taken the street over down to Griffith Street and it was 

so full I went around Griffith Street, I went down Griffith 

Street, then turned down and then come back into Amite Street .

Q. Now to go down Griffith Street and come back on Amite



B. Armstrong, C r . 1669 .

Street, you had to leave Farish Street?
A . I did .

Q. You went around in a circle?
A. One block.

Q. So, what was going on when this trouble started?
While you were making the circle you were not in a position to 
see since you weren’t there.

A. The trouble had started before I ever left Farish 
Street. I went around to try to get into the area where I could 
be of some assistance.

Q. You were trying to get toward the front of the group
then?

A . That’s right.

Q. And in order to do that, you had to make the circle 
and go around to the front of the group?

A. That’s right. I didn’t get to the front of the group 

because they were faster than I was. The block between Farish 

and Capitol was full when I got to Amite.

Q. So when you got back you were essentially in the same 

position that you were when you started?

A. No, I was about half way between it.
Q. I meant with reference to the crowd?
A. No, it was about half as many on one end of me then as 

it was on the other.
Q. But during this time your attention, you were



B. Armstrong, C r . 1670.

concentrated toward the front of the group, right?

A. No, I was —— well --no, not the front of the group. I 
was trying to get around so that maybe I could be of some assist 
ance to cut part of this group off.

Q. Are we talking about —
A. We split the mob.
Q. We, you speak of «we” —

A. The Police Department split the mob. You had two block 
rushing in a mob, violent, shouting, and hollering, and singing.

Q. Are you telling me that there were a line of police, 
and then people and the some more police and then people?

A. I got enough police in there that I stopped about a 
third of them, back on the other end. They never did get in the 
first block.

Q. Toward the rear of them?
A . That’s right .

Q. Of these two blocks?

A. Uh huh.
Q. But I am still trying —  what I’m trying to satisfy 

myself about is when you found it necessary to go around the 
block to come back to Farish, you couldn’t ascertain what was 

going on at Farish at that time?

A. I could not.
Q. Now, you said you had police out there and Chief Ray 

had police out there, there were State Police out there too,



B. Armstrong, C r . 1671.

weren't 
A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.
A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

there?
There were.

And they had guns, rifles?
They did.

About how many of them were there?
I couldn’t tell you.

Could you give me an estimate?
I could not estimate.

And they had police dogs out there also?
Possible.

Do you remember seeing any police dogs?
I believe I seen two.

Were they with your group or with the State Police?
They were with our group.

With the group that you were over?

No, with the group of police th^t was down there.
Were they with the group that you commanded?

They were not with the traffic men.
Were they with Captain Ray’s group?

Probably with Chief Ray’s.
Do you know how many policemen in all were down there?

I do not .
Now, you said that there had been something like thirty-

five hundred,;to four thousand people in this funeral procession 

initially, when it got to the funeral home?



B. Armstrong, Cr. 1672.

A. When it got to the funeral home, it was —  I'd say, 
two thousand people, when we got to the funeral it was two 
thousand people in the area around the funeral home.

Q. Do you know whether these were the same group in the 
procession or not?

A. Some of them.

Q. And some of them were not?

A. Some of them, —  the two thousand people that was around 
the funeral home, they were not in the procession, I don^t know 
where they come from. When we pulled the funeral procession in,
I led it in, the sidewalks in the area around there, the yards 
and so on was full of people, plus the ones that was following 
the funeral procession.

Q. So that this were not all people who had been in the 
funeral procession?

A. I wouldnH say that. I couldn*t say that, it was quite 
a crowd up there.

Q. Were you there when the people who had been in the 
funeral procession, when some of them began to leave the area and 
go about their business? For instance, some of the group that 

had been in the front of it? Did you observe this?
A. I was in a position where I could see some very few 

people, some of the preachers and so on, did leave the area, 

left there walking.
Q. Then there were those who did leave?



B. Armstrong, C r . 1673 .

A. There were some that left the area walking.
Q. When you were there on the 15th after this funeral, 

Chief Armstrong, you weren’t in a position to see what was going 
on at the back of the procession, were you, when it got to 

Farish Street, since you were at the front trying to see what 
was going on there?

A. No, you couldn’t see, it was so many people in there, 
you couldn’t see down to the back of it.

Q. So that most of your attention was confined in the 
Capitol Street area?

A. No, most of my attention was confined to the Farish 
Street area .

Q. I meant Farish where it meets Capitol.
A. I was on Farish Street up near the funeral home. I 

never did come back down to Farish and Capitol.
Q. You didn’t get to Capitol Street?

A. I never did get to Capitol Street. Once I went —

MRS. MORRIS:
Thank you.

JUDGE CARL GUERNSEY

called as a witness for the Defendants, after first being duly 

sworn, testified as follows:

MR. TRAVIS:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Q. Would you state your name, age and address, please?



C. Guernsey, Dir. 1674.

A. I am Carl Guernsey, my age is 38 and I live at 4729 
Kings Highway, Jackson, Mississippi.

Q. What is your position?

A. I am Judge of the County Court, presiding over the 
Youth Court Division.

Q. How were you, —  how did you come to be Youth Court 
and County Court Judge?

A. Originally by appointment of Governor J. P. Coleman in 
1959, later by re—appointment and then by election.

Q. All right, sir,
A. That’s correct.

Q. And you, indivi
County Court Judge, are

A. No , I am not.

Q. Neither is the
A. No, it is not .

Q. What, Judge Gue
Court and where does the

from?

A. The Youth Court

lation, involving any child from 10 through 17 years of age, 

except in traffic offenses or in capital cases. The authority 

of the Youth Court is derived from the laws of 1946, the Youth 

Court Act which was patterned . after the Standard Juvenile Court 

Act, which was something of a model for Juvenile Court Acts of



C, Guernsey, Dir. 1675.

the 50 states.

Q. Now, the City of Jackson falls within the jurisdiction 
of your Court, does it not?

A. Entirely.

Q. Entirely, and what, when you say Youth Court, what per­
sons can be handled through your Court as to ages?

A. The Youth Court can deal with children through 17, that 
is until the 18th birthday with a provision for retention of 
jurisdiction until they are 20. We can deal also with adults 
responsible for the behavior of juveniles. On our neglect juris­
diction, we have no minimum age limit; on our deliquency jurisdic­
tion, we don’t commence until the 10th birthday.

Q. D o you, as Youth Court Judge, have full and complete 
jurisdiction of all persons being held under the Youth Court Act?

A. Yes, and the nature of the Youth Court Act, as is true,
I think, in all states, is such that the Court itself controls 
whether matters will be handled on a formal or informal basis 

and whether the child in question will be retained or released, 
pending hearing.

Q. Well, that then is in the discretion of the Youth Court 

Judge, and you in this particular situation, insofar as the City 

of Jackson is concerned?

A. Yes, that Is correct.
Q. Now, directing your attention, Judge Guernsey, to last 

summer, particularly the months of May and June, I’ll ask you if



C. Guernsey, Dir. 1676.

you had occasion, in your official capacity as Youth Court Judge,
andle certain juveniles that were arrested in the City of

Jackson by the Police Dena ».+• -e .Department for participating in various
types of disorders?

A. Yes, I did have.

Q. Would you tell the Court the number that you handled, 
juveniles that you handled arising from this type of, these 

types of situations during the summer months, in particular the 
months of May and June?.

A. From May 31st through July, we handled a total of 665 
children.

Q. 665 children. Now, how many of them were handled as 
juveniles?

A. 650 were handled as juveniles; 15 were referred back to 
Police Court .

Q. When you say they were referred back to Police Court, 
Judge Guernsey, what do you mean by that?

A. The Police Court or the Municipal Court can act on a 
violation of the law by a juvenile only upon the certification 
by the Youth Court, they certify to these children.

Q. In other words, then, you certified these 15 persons 

back to the Municipal Court to be handled as adults according to 

statues?

A. That is correct.
Q. Then, there were 650 of these juveniles, - when we say



C. Guernsey, Dir. 1677.

juveniles, we are speaking of persons under 18 years of age, i:
t h a t CO]meet?

A. That is co
Q. That were

tell u s what the di
con si St  (sd of?

A. Yes. Tho s

yoi
>50 cases were, what they

to their parents, immediately upon their parents calling for them, 
on two conditions. That is that the parent agreed to do every­
thing within his power in the interest of the child’s safety to 

keep that child from being involved in further demonstrations, 
and the other condition that the child himself would agree to be 
responsive to the authority and to the discipline of the parent.

Q. Those were decisions and instructions that were given 
by you?

A. That is correct.

Q. Did the City of Jackson or any official of the City of 
Jackson, or representative of the City of Jackson, have anything 

to do with the making of that decision or those instructions, or 
was that your function entirely?

A. You, Mr. Travis, Mr. Nichols, Mr. Tom Watkins, repre­

senting the City, had appeared when it wa s -indicat ed that there 

might be difficulty and requested leniency of the Court on 

behalf of any children who were involved and who could safely be

relea sed .



C. Guernsey, Dir 1678 .

Q. Now, from the time these children were placed in deten­

tion until the time they were released, were they under your 
direct supervision and control?

A. Under the law, they very definitely were.

Q. And, insofar as these particular individuals were con­
cerned, did you exercise that authority?

A. Yes, completely and there was no interference with that 
authority whatsoever.
MR. BELL:

Just for the record, I wonder if counsel could be 
directed to ask questions that aren’t leading, Your Honor, just 
as they were answered.
THE COURT :

Yes, don’t lead him.
MR. TRAVIS:

Q. Judge Guernsey, you were about to tell the Court in 
what manner you disposed of these 650 juveniles.

A. All right. Those that were arrested on May 31st and on 

June 1st were released without formal petition. Those arrested 

after June 1st, a petition was filed, summons was served on the 

child and on the parents; they were brought into Court. No dis­

position was made on those who appeared for one offense, rather 

the cases were held open without adjudication for a term of one 

year .
Q. And what disposition was made insofar as the juveniles



Co Guernsey, Dir. 1679.

were concerned, custody-wise?
A. They were released to the custody of their parents.

Q. State for the Court just what action you took to bring 
about the release of these juveniles —  was there a large volume 
of them that went at one time?

A. On the night of May the 31st there were, - the number I 
am not sure of —  it was around 400 that were involved in demon­
strations that were brought into custody at one time. Because of 
the large number at that time, and again on June 1st, seeing that 
we wouldn't be able to expedite the release of these children 
nearly rapidly enough by having them transported to our office 
and met by their parents there, we went down to the fair grounds 
and .set up a temporary courtroom, I might say in a converted 
shower down there. We remained down there the first night until 
about 4:00 o'clock the following morning in order to release all 
who could be released.

We came back early the next morning, early Saturday 
morning, about 8:30 or 9:00; remained down there until approxi­
mately 11:00 or 12:00 o'clock at night and then came back Sunday 

immediately after church and released all the remaining children 

whose families would come for them.

Q. Were they released as promptly as the matter could be 

disposed of?
A. Yes they were. After the first few came up for con- • 

sideration, police officers would work with us in processing



C. Guernsey, Dir. 1680.

these things as rapidly as possible. In other words, getting 
the children out, getting the parents and the children together

order to effect their release at the earliest possible moment.
Q. They were assisting you, then?
A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Now, in regards to the 15 who you stated you certified 
back to the Police Court to be held as adults, would you tell the 
Court why this was, why they were ordered by you to be held as 
adults and not to be treated as juveniles?

A. Some of them had previous juvenile records which, 
coupled with the one or more offenses involved here, indicated 

that they would not respond to the Youth Court programs available 
for them. Some of them became involved in two or more demonstra­
tions, so that we knew that under the circumstances then prevail­
ing we could not, with the limited personnel that we had, provide 
sufficient supervision to deal with them effectively. None of 
them were referred back, of what you would term "tender years", 
it was the older violators that we did refer back to the Police 
Court .

Q. All right, sir. Now, from the time that these children 
were arrested until the time that disposition was made for their 

release by you, whose supervision, control and jurisdiction were 

they under?

A. They were, as the law indicates, under the supervision 

and control of the Court.



C. Guernsey, Dir. 1681.

Q. That is
A. That is
Q. And you •
A. That is

Q* Then you
A. Yes.

Q. Now, did

these children during this period of time, from the arrests up 
until you disposed of them or were they under your authority?

A. No, the City of Jackson provided personnel to operate 
under the Court’s supervision, but at no time was there any action 
other than that which would be indicated.

Q. Judge Guernsey, do you recall an incident involving one 
of these minors, I believe her name was Shirley Catchings?

A. Yes, I do very well.

Q. All right, would you tell His Honor what happened, —  

when was this, do you recall the date, approximately, or the 

date if you know it?

A. No, I don’t remember the date. I think it could very 
easily have been June 1st, but I am not certain about that.

Q. What happened?
A. This child’s mother came down to the fair grounds to 

get her and when we found out who it was she was after, word was

sent into the building reserved for girls in the same fashion 

that it had been sent in before and the girl refused to come out.



C. Guernsey, Dir. 1682.

Now, at the point, before we sent anyone in there for her, the 

mother said, "I’d like to go in and get her out of there myself."
Q. Do you recall the mother’s name?

A. Bennie Catchings, I believe was her name.

But the mother went into the building and said that the 
child had refused to come out with her. At that time I told the 
mother that we would send someone in there to get her out and 
absolutely no protest was made, no request was made that she be 
allowed to stay in there.

Two officers went in and I went in with the officers.
The child ran into the washroom, the door remained open, and one 
of the officers went in after her and brought her out by the arm. 
I am convinced that when he did so, he used only the amount of 
force that was necessary to bring her out.

Q. Were both of these officers acting under your direction?
A. Yes, they certainly were.

Q. Tell us what transpired after that.
A. After the officer grabbed her by the arm and was bring­

ing her out, she was kicking and screaming. They came roughly 

two-thirds of the way out of the building, from the washroom to 

the exit, under exactly the same circumstances, when the mother 
came up behind the officer who had the child, grabbed hold of 

him, I don’t know what she was doing, but she was attempting to 

wrestle him off, and at that time Officer Ates came up behind 

her and did, with the heel of his hand, hit her across the back



C. Guernsey, Dir. 1683.

of the shoulder for the purpose, —  I assume for the purpose of 
getting her to release his fellow officer.
MRS. MORRIS:

Your Honor, I ask that the purpose be stricken.
THE COURT:

Overruled.
MR. TRAVIS:

Q. Did she leave after that?
A . Yes, the child did come out, the mother came out and,

sub sequently, the child and mother did leave to gether .
Q. Insofar as the detention area for these juveniles were

cone erned, Judge Guernsey, did you supervise and look over the
f aci lities, the sleeping and eating faciliti es?

A . Yes, I certainly did. I wa s down there during almost
all o f the time, the first several days that they were down the
almo st all of the time, except say from midnight until 8:00 in

the moirning.

Q. Would you describe these eating and sleeping faciliti e

as satisfactory?
A. Yes, very definitely so. I have been to Boy Scout 

camps that were not as well kept.

MR. TRAVIS:
Your witness.

CROSS EXAMINATION

MRS. MORRIS?



C. Guernsey, Cr. 1684 .

Q. Judge Guernsey, you said that you kept a number of 
these juvenile cases to be disposed of open for one year without 
any final disposition.

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. During that period, are these people required to stay 
out of any civil rights demonstrations, is that a condition of 
it?

A. To avoid any further violation of the law.
i s

Q. Well, since you are the one to determine what/ a violation 
of the law, would participation in civil rights demonstrations 
come within that definition?

A. I couldn’t prejudge that in every case. I can conceive 

of civil rights demonstrations which would be a violation of the 
law. I can conceive of some which would not be.

Q. And, in some of these instances when you first talked 
to these juveniles you tried, -*■> you testified that you tried 

to get them to promise to stay out of demonstrations and their 
parents to promise to use whatever influence they had over the 

child to keep them out.

A . Yes, I did.
Q. Now, you said that after June 1st petitions were filed 

and summons were served. Was this a petition alleging that the 

child was a juvenile delinquent?

A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. So that all of them were adjudicated juvenile delinquents



C. Guernsey, C r . 1685.

that were dealt with after June the 1st?
A. None of them were adjudicated. The cases were held

open .

Q. Are all of the 650 cases being held open?

A. No, those that were involved May 31st and June 1st, 
there was no petition filed and they were dealt with informally. 

Q. Subsequent to June 1st?
A. That is correct.

Q. Now, the ones after June 1st where there were petitions 
and summons, they were adjudicated juvenile delinquents in 
those -

A. There has been no adjudications made.

Q. Those are the cases that are held open at the present
time .

A. That is correct.
Q. Now, I assume it to be closed within a year of the time 

the incident occurred.
A. That is correct.
Q. And the remaining ones, the 15 that you talked about,that 

were sent over to the City Court to be handled as adults?

A. That is correct.
Q. Now, you described this incident with Shirley Catchings. 

Do you know how old she was at that time?
A. I believe she was 14 or 15, I could refresh my memory,

but



C , Guernsey, C r . 1686 .

Q. 3)o you recall how large she was?

A, She was an average child for her age, she wasn’t large, 
she wasn’t small.

Q, Average for a 14 year old?
A. That is correct.

Q. And how old was the policeman who went after her?

A. He was perhaps five,-10 or five,-11; 175 or 185 pounds.
Q. When he brought the child out of the washroom where he

had gone to get her, you said that he brought her out by the arm,
did he have her arm behind her, to the best of your recollection?

A. I do not recall that he did have, but I wouldn’t say 
that, he didn’t have.

Q. Where were you standing when this was going on?

A, When he was coming out of the washroom, he was facing 
me. When he turned and was going toward the door then his back 
was to me. In other words, I was standing at a vantage point 

that was to the west of the washroom, almost due west of the 

washroom.
Q. And during the time that he came out of the washroom and

he passed you going toward the door, he still had the Catchings

girl by the arm?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q, Now, where did the incident with her mother take place, 

near the door?
A. It was near the exit



C. Guernsey, Cr. 1687.

Q. Bo you recall if it was between the washroom and the 
door, approximately?

A. They didn’t go directly from the washroom to the exit 
door, there was sort of an arc they made in there. It would 
have been, oh perhaps, 75 yards from the washroom door to the 
exit the way they went.

Q. Was the mother on the inside of the building or on the 
outside of the building?

A. She was on the inside of the building.
Q. By the door?

A. Yes, that is correct.
MRS. MORRIS:

No further questions.
MR. S. B. BARNES

called as a witness for the Defendants, after being duly sworn, 
testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Would you give your name, age, and address to the Court 

Reporter please sir?
A. S. B. Barnes, 1030 Claiborne Street, Jackson, age 52.

Q. Mr. Barnes, by whom are you employed?
A. The Police Department of the City of Jackson, Mississippi. 

Q. How long have you been employed by the Police Department

of the City of Jackson?



S. B. Barnes, J)ir . 1688 .

A. Approximately 25 years.
Q. Has that been continuous service?
A . Yes.

Q. Do you hold any rank with the Police Department?
A. Deputy Chief of Detectives.

Q. Did you hold that rank on May 31, 1963?
A . Yes .

Q. And you have held it since that time?
A . Yes .

Q. Were you on duty on May 31 and several weeks following 
that date?

A . Yes.

May

at

for

at

hut

Q. What duty did you have with the Police Department on 
31, 1963?

A. I was placed in charge of the temporary jail facility 
the fair grounds.

Q. Thatis here in the City of Jackson?

A . Yes sir .
Q. Now, would you describe that temporary jail facility 

the Court, please?
A. This is two large buildings located on the fair grounds 

the east end of Capitol Street. I believe they are quonset 

type, approximately 200 feet long, about 100 feet wide, with

windows and doors all around.
Q. Are they flat buildings?



S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1689.

A. They are oval-shaped type buildings.
Q. The roofs are?

A. The roofs are oval-shaped, yes.

Q. Now, you mentioned the buildings, there are two of them, 
more than one?

A , Two buildings.

Q. And, how are they located in relation to each other?
A. I believe the buildings lengthwise would be running east 

and west. I’d say there was a brick patio between the two build­
ings about 40 to 50 feet wide.

Q. Now, I hand you a photograph here and ask if you can 
identify it, Mr. Barnes?

A. This is a photograph of the two buildings with the 
camera facing east; it is just east of Jefferson Street. It is 
on the fair ground property.

Q. Does that photograph accurately portray these two build­

ings on that date?

A . Yes.

MR. NICHOLS:
We offer this as Exhibit No. 54.

MR. BELL:
If he is offering these in evidence now, the first one 

there, again we are kind of in the dark as to what the relevance 

of this is going to be.

THE COURT:



S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1690.

Your objection is supposed to point to me irrelevance 
and I’ll overrule your objection and let it be admitted in evi­
dence, Defendants* Exhibit 54. Go ahead.
MR. NICHOLS:

Q. Now, you stated you were in charge of the jail?
A . Yes .

Q. And, did you supervise all of the activities on the part 
of the jailers down there?

A . Yes.

Q. Such as food for the prisoners and sleeping accommoda­
tions, did that come under your charge?

A . Yes.

Q. Was food served to the prisoners there?
A . Yes .

Q. How often was it served?
A. Three times a day.

Q. Did you have occasion to eat the food on occasion your­

self?

A. I did.
Q.. I hand you a photograph and ask you if you can identify 

that for me, please?
A. This is the benches set up between the two buildings for 

the prisoners to eat from and they are being served in a chow 

line in groups of about 12 or 15 at a time. They are allowed to 

go to these benches and sit and eat their food there.



Q. 3)oes that photograph accurately portray those prisoners 
as they sat at a meal there?

A . Yes.
MR. NICHOLS:

If it please the Court, we offer this as Exhibit No. 55. 
THE COURT:

All right, it may be admitted in evidence and marked as 
Defendants’ Exhibit 55.

(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-55.)
MR. NICHOLS:

Q. Now, Mr. Barnes, are you familiar with any sleeping 
arrangements that might have been made for the prisoners?

A . Yes .

Q. Would you tell what, if anything, was done to afford 

the prisoners sleeping accommodations?

A. It consisted of cots and mattresses, and blankets.
Q. Now, I hand you a photograph here and ask you if you 

can identify that for me?
A. This is a picture of some of the prisoners that was 

taken at the time an inspection was made at the women’s cell.
Q. Can you identify any of the people in the photograph?

A. Yes, I identify Barbara Morris, attorney, and a member 

of the Justice Department, his last name is Henderson.
Q. Was he an attorney with the Justice Department?

S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1691.

A . Yes .



S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1692.

MR. NICHOLS:

May it please the Court, we offer this —  

MRS. MORRIS:

Your Honor, I am going to object to that and the next 
two he intends to put into evidence. I donTt think it has any 
relevance to this case at all because whether or not the grounds 
were inspected could not be of any less moment. We are talking 
here about what happened as a matter of fact.
THE COURT:

All right, I’ll overrule the objection. This photograph 

may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. Go ahead.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-56.)

MR. NICHOLS:

Q. Now, I hand you another photograph and ask you if you 
can identify that, please sir?

A. This is a concrete patio shed covered by, -- on the 
east end of the buildings which extends across from each build­

ing .

Q. Is this part of the

A. Yes .

Q. And, what does this ;

A. Let’s see, it was ta

Wilson, Chief Ray, and a memb

Justice Department, I don’t
were leaving the south building, which is the men’s cell,



S . B . Barnes, Dir . 1693 .

walking to the women’s cell for an inspection tour.
MR. NICHOLS:

May it please the Court, we offer this as Defendants’ 
Exhibit —

MRS. MORRIS:

Did you note my objection to the remaining photographs? 
THE COURT:

it’s overruled. It may be admitted in evi­
dence and be properly marked.

(Whereupon the clerk marked the Exhibit as D-57.)
MR. NICHOLS:

Q. Now, you mentioned these inspections. Am I to under­
stand that there was more than one inspection of this jail by 
the Justice Department?

A. Will you repeat your question?
Q. Am I to understand that there was more than one inspec­

tion of this jail by parties from the Justice Department?

A . Yes.
Q. How many were there?

A . Two .
Q. Now, Chief Barnes, as concerns the sleeping accommoda­

tions, were they, —  no, strike that. Now, give me the procedure 
if you would briefly, Chief Barnes, as to just what happened 
when prisoners were brought to this temporary jail there. At 

what point did you take them into your custody and then tell me



S . B . Barnes, D i r . .16 94 .
what happened, if anything?

A. The first group arrested was brought in, which was a 
large number; They were unloaded between the two buildings on 
the brick patio, or concrete patio. They were all placed into 
t e building to the north, north building. They were immediately 
booked and an arrest sheet made of each person, starting with the 
males and they were transferred to the south building.

Q. What about the females?

A. From then on as they were brought in, they were, of 
course, separated at that time, booked and separated before they 
went into the building.

Q. Now, on each of the deposits made to the jail, was the 
same procedure followed?

A . Yes .

Q. They were booked and separated according to sex, is that 
correct ?

A . Yes.

Q. Now, Captain Barnes, were these sleeping accommodations 
and accommodations for feeding the prisoners and toilet facilities, 
were they adequate for the number of people you had there?

A . Y e s .

MR. BELL:
I object, Your Honor.

THE COURT:
Overruled. What do yo>u mean by adequate?



S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1695

THE WITNESS:

I would take, Judge, to be satisfactory bedding for 
someone to sleep, which consists of cots, mattresses, and 
blanket s.
THE COURT:

Take the toilet facilities, what sort of facilities did 
you have for toilets?
THE WITNESS:

I didn’t understand you, sir.
THE COURT:

Toilet facilities, what sort of facilities did you have 
for that? That was a part of his question.
THE WITNESS:

I believe, Judge, there is three toilets in each build­
ing. In other words, on each end of the building, there is 
either three or four toilets.
THE COURT:

For each sex?

THE WITNESS:
Yes, in other words, that would be the men’s cell would 

have three and the women’s cell would have three.

THE COURT:
What other accommodation did you have in the toilet area? 

THE WITNESS:
What other accommodations?



S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1696.

THE COURT:
Yes sir. 

THE WITNESS:

Do you mean with reference to bathing, showers? 
THE COURT:

Well, did you have such a thing?
THE WITNESS:

We had showers provided for them and they were allowed 
to bathe each day.
THE COURT:

Hot and cold showers?
THE WITNESS:

Did not have any hot water at that time, no sir.
MR. NICHOLS:

Q. Mr. Barnes, you were in charge of the jail on May 31 
and you testified you received a certain number of prisoners 
at your temporary jail on that date, is that correct?

A . Y e s .

Q. After these parties were booked as you have outlined 
and separated as to sex, the women in one cell and the men in 

another, what was the demeanor of those prisoners thereafter?
A. It was quite an ordeal as far as hollering, singing, 

and destroying property! I believe most of the windows were 

broken out that afternoon and late in the night all around the

buildings .



S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1697.

Q. Who broke the windows out ?
A. The prisoners •
Q. How long did this uproar keep up?
A. I’d say about Mo nday before they actually

to reasoning where you could talk with them.
Q. Did they keep up all night?
A. All night long.

MR c NICHOLS i

settled down

That’s all I have.

CROSS EXAMINATION
MR » BELLs

Q. How many nights were the fair grounds used to hold the 
prisoners, Chief Barnes, before cots and blankets were brought 
in?

A. They were offered cots, mattresses and blankets the 
first night they were booked. The men prisoners destroyed and 
tore up three cots as we were placing them in the cell and said 
that they did not want cots. We offered them to the women’s

cell and they refused cots and mattressses or blankets either.

Q. When were the cots placed in the facility?

A. I thi.nk the women’s accept ed the blankets on Saturday

night and[ all prisoners accepted cots and mattres s es on Sunday

Q. You indicat ed as to cots and some other acti vity that

it was property damage and you also indicated, «*— well you 

indicated windows being broken and things of this nature. Now,



S. B, Barnes, Cr. 1698 .

what was done by the police to find out who was responsible for

this damage and what action was taken against the persons respons­
ible for the damage?

A, It was almost impossible, it was impossible to say who 
actually broke the windows out or destroyed any property inside.

Q. Now, you said that these people who had been arrested 
while participating in civil rights demonstrations in groups up 
to 400 had been brought into your facility by the police, and yet 
you were unable once they were in your custody to find out who, 
if any of them, had taken part in this destruction of property, 
is that your testimony?

A. I wouldn’t know them by name. It was a large group and 
it was impossible to point out a particular one, exactly what he 
did. You could stand on the outside of the building and see the 
steel frames and glass come out on the building on the outside.

Q. So when you offered, your men offered the first few cots 
on, you indicate the first night, you say these were destroyed.
You didn’t know who had destroyed this property?

A. I would say the group of prisoners therej I would not 

know them by name.
Q. Was there any other way to ascertain who was responsible 

for the destruction?
A. Not at that time because they were so unruly, it would 

have been impossible to make that type investigation.

Q. So you gave out no further cots on the first night?



S . B . Barnes , C r . 1699 .

A. They refused cots.
Q. No further cots were given out after the first 

indicated were destroyed?

A. They were offered cots and mattresses each day
Q. JDo you happen to know, Chief Barnes, when this 

grounds facility was constructed, when the fair grounds 
were built?

few you

and night, 
fair

buildings

A. I'm sorry, I can’t answer that question.

Q. Bo you know when it was converted over for use to hold, as 
temporary prison facility?

A . No, I don’t.

Q. You do know that it was converted in some way to be 
used as a prison?

A . Yes .

Q. But you don’t know when this took place?
A . No.

Q« Now, what are these fair buildings used for normally? 
A. Exhibition buildings I understand, display buildings. 

Q. Display what?
A. I have seen things displayed there during the fair, 

during a normal fair.
Q, Are the building constructed for the display of live­

stock and other farm animals?

A . No .
Q, What type of materials are displayed there?



A-. ITm sorry, I can’t answer that question, just name one 
particular thing.

Q. To your knowledge they are not used for displaying live­
stock?

A. No .

Q. To your knowledge have the facilities ever been used to 
house persons, or prisoners prior to the time you took over to 
house the civil rights demonstrators?

A. I cannot answer that question, I do not know.
Q. To your knowledge has it been used subsequent to that 

time to house persons or prisoners, subsequent to the period when 
you were in charge last summer? Has it been used to house persons 
or prisoners?

A. I’m sorry I can’t answer that one, I do not know.
Q. You don’t know whether it has been so used?
A. I’m sorry, I don’t know.

Q. Were there a point at which you were relieved from this 

duty that you have been discussing here?

A. Will you repeat that?
Q. Were you relieved of your duty of, —  in charge of this 

temporary fair ground facility?

A . Yes .
Q. When was that?
A. When they closed it down.

S. B 0 Barnes, C r . 1700.

Q. When was that?



A. I can’t tell you the exact date, but when the persons 

were all released on bond or transferred to the city jail.
Q. Was that some time last summer?
A . Y e s  .

Q. During the time that it was 
of it, were any other persons who wer 
crime brought to the facility, other 
involved in civil rights demonstratio 

A. No other particular charges,
MR. BELL:

No further questions.
MR. WATKINS:

May it please the Court, we 

Charles Evers as an adverse witness.
THE COURT :

Are you going to have very much examination of him?

MR. WATKINS:
No sir .

THE COURT:

All right.
MR. CHARLES EVERS

called as an adverse witness for the Defendants, after having been

duly sworn, testified as follows:
EXAMINATION

S* B. Barnes, Cr. 1701.

open and you were in charge 
e arrested and charged with 
than persons who were 
ns? 
no .

would like to call Plaintiff

MR. WATKINS:



1702 .

Q. I believe you are the Field Secretary in Mississippi 
for the NAACP?

A. That is correct.

Q. You have previously testified in this case?
A . Right .

Q. Since the time that you testified earlier in this case, 
you have made one or more public speeches in which you have dis­
cussed this case or the matters involved in this case, have you 
not ?

A. Not that I can recall,

Q. Bid you not, on Saturday night, February 14, 1964, make 
a speech in Nashville, Tennessee?

A. Right, I did.
Q. Bid you not in that speech make the statement, "Folk 

we have made up our minds that if a white man shoots at a Negro 

in Mississippi, we will shoot back."?

A . I did not .
Q. Bid you make the statement during that speech, “If they 

bomb a Negro church and kill our children, we are going to bomb 

a white church and kill sdmerof their children."?

A. May I state what I did say?
Q. First, tell me did you make that statement?
A. The statement was made, but not in the sense in which 

you are reading it off there. The statement was made, but not 

sence, thatTs why I would like to explain it.

C. Evers,

in that



1703 .

Q. Bid you make it?
A. A statement was made of that sort.
Q. By you?
A. By me.

Q. And what you then say that is different, —  how did it 
differ from —

A. Now, here is what I said, I said, —  the first thing I 
said, ,lThere are many good whites in Mississippi who believe in 
democracy and there are many Negroes who believe in democracy, 
but there are extreme groups in both groups, both races, and the 
extreme groups of each race do not understand non-violence and 
non-violence won’t work where they are concerned. The extreme 

whites who believe in bombing churches and shooting at the home 
and killing children do not understand anything, but if they 
shoot into your home, you shoot back; if they bomb your church, 
you bomb theirs." I said, "We have groups of our race who would 
do just that because they are vowed that they will not be misused 
and abused any more, but I hope the day will never come when 

Negroes and whites in Mississippi will have to go to arms to 

settle their differences." That wasn’t printed.
Q. Bid you state during that speech that "If a Negro got 

on 'his knees and asked fob justice in Mississippi he would have 

his brains kicked out ."?
A. I didn’t say that. I said, if a Negro, speaking of the 

extreme groups, if a Negro were down praying for justice or

C. Evers,



democracy, these same people would stomp his brains out or kick 

his brains out because they don’t understand non-violence nor 
do they understand religion or Christianity,

Q. Did you tell that meeting that non-violence would not 
work in Mississippi and that you no longer advocated non-violence?

A. I said it won’t work with extreme groups of both races.
Q. Did you advocate the use of non-violence to achieve your 

goals in Mississippi?
A. I have never advocated it. I don’t believe in non­

violence —  in violence. I am strictly a non-violent, I think 

that has been proven and I never have advocated it, and I never 
will advocate it and I pray the day will come when it won’t be 

used against us.
Q. Did you make the statement, ”We are going to bomb a 

white church and kill some of. their children.”?

A. No .
Q. You did not?

A. No .
Q. You have seen that statement attributed to you in the 

public press?
A. I have seen in. I called back to the persons who mis­

quoted me and informed them that it ws s not true • It was a mis­

quote. I did say it, but not in the way in which they had it 

printed. I didn’t say we was going to. I was saying that 

extreme groups of both races and I still say there are extreme

C. Evers, 1704.



1705 .C. Evers,

groups of each race that will resort to nothing but violence 
but we hope the day will never come when neither Negroes nor
white will have to shoot it out to get democracy in Mississippi.

Q. Did you make the statement in that speech, "The Negroes 

in Mississippi have served notice that there won’t be any more 

Medlgar Evers killings in the state without reprisals."?
A. No. I said, "We have served notice that we hope there 

won’t be any more Medgar Evers in Mississippi." If it should be, 
we certainly hope that there will be justice done and if it is 
not done, Negroes are not going to sit idle by any more and let 
people come into their home and drag them out and beat them up 

like dogs." I did say that.
Q. What were you advocating there, that if a Negro were 

killed in Mississippi and if you didn’t consider that justice was 

done, then you would select a white man and kill him?
A. No, no, no, I didn’t. I have advocated Article 3, Sec­

tion 12, of the Mississippi Constitution, that a citizen has a 
right to protect his home and his property, even unto arms, that 

is if they come into our homes, that is all I was advocating.
Q. When you were making those statements in that speech, 

did you on more than one occasion turn to the reporters present 

and tell them, "Write that down, this is no secret."?
A. Print the truth, yes, I said that, print the truth and 

they did just vice versa.
Q. Now, you have since seen the Nashville Banner which



1706 .

carried the headlines and the purported quotes from your speech 

in Nashville, haven’t you?
A. I haven’t seen that.

Q. Well, I’ll ask you to look at it. Have you read that 
article?

A . No , I haven’t .
Q. Please read it, it(s not long.
A. It’s the same one that was in the Jackson Daily News,

I read that, -- it seems that it is the same one that was in the 
Jackson Daily News and the Clarion Ledger, I read it.

Q. Are any of the quotes in that article attributed to you
true?

A. Yes, I have the greatest respect for Martin Luther King, 
but I said, but the extreme groups of Mississippi will not under­

stand —
Q. Read it verbatim.
A. Oh, read it here as I said, ”1 have the greatest respect 

for Mr. Martin Luther King, but non-violence won’t work in 

Mississippi. You get on your knees down there praying for —

MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to the reading of this. It is not 

in evidence and it is being read in evidence and it hasnTt been 

offered.

MR. NICHOLS:
Your Honor, I am questioning him about a statement he

C. Evers,



1707 .

has made, in Nashville, about this matter in Mississippi and he 
has just said this statement is correct and I want to —
THE WITNESS:

I said part of it.
MRS. MORRIS:

No he didn’t, he said part of it. Not all of that —  

THE WITNESS:

Just a part of it.
THE COURT:

Well, let him examine him about it. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS:

A. Just the part where I said I have the greatest respect 
for Reverend Martin Luther King.
MR. NICHOLS:

Q. You didnTt say any of the rest of that sentence?
A. Not in the way in which it is printed, no.

Q. Then you disavow now every quote contained in that 
article attributed to you, is that correct?

A. As advocating violence, yes.

Q. Have you ever advised the Nashville Banner or anybody 

connected with that paper, in writing, that the quotes that they 

attributed to you in that article were not true and did not 
represent what you either said or stood for?

A. I advised the UPI, I didn’t know who sent this, I just 

advised UPI, —  I saw it in the Jackson Clarion Ledger, —  UPI

C . Evers,



1708 .

and Mr. M c k  Sanders down at WLBT news, I did.
MR. NICHOLS:

May it please the Court, I would like to offer in evi­
dence the story as it appears in the Nashville Banner which pur­
ports to quote this witness, with his testimony with respect to 
whether it is or is not a correct quote.
MRS. MORRIS:

Your Honor, we object to the admission on a number of 
grounds. In the first place, the witness has disavowed most of 
that which appears there. Secondly, whatever is in a newspaper 
is hearsay; what a reporter said that he said and the witness is 

here himself to say what, in fact, he did say and he has clarified 
that for the record. The other statements which counsel was try­

ing to determine whether or not they were stated were read and 
--- during the questioning of the witness.

THE COURT:

Yes, IT11 sustain the objection to it as evidence and 
let it be marked for identification as part of your questions to 
him.

(Whereupon the clerk marked the the exhibit D-58<for identi­
fication.)

MR. NICHOLS:

That’s all the questions I have from this witness.
MR. BELL:

No questions, Your Honor.

C . Evers,

THE COURT:



1709 .

All right. We will take a recess until 9:00 o’clock in 
the morning.
MR. WATKINS:

Judge, we are just about ready to rest.
THE COURT :

Oh, you are?
MR. WATKINS:

Yes sir. I wanted to ask the Court’s permission to do 
one thing before I rest. Early in this case we had marked for 
identification Exhibits B-ll, 12, 13, and 14, which constituted 
the transcript of the testimony taken in the Chancery Court case. 
At the time we offered them there was, as I recall it, strenuous

objections on the part of opposing counsel. In this case we have
/developed, in my opinion, a substantial part of the same evidence 

that appears in this record. I see no longer any need for it 
and I would like permission to withdraw those exhibits which had 
been previously marked for identification only.
THE COURT:

What number is that?
MR. WATKINS:

D—11, 12, 13, and 14.
THE COURT:

11, 12, 13, and 14?

MR. WATKINS:

That’s right



1710 .
THE COURT :

All right, Defendants Exhibits 11, 12, 13, and 14 for 
identification may be withdrawn from the record in this case.
MR. WATKINS:

The Defense rests, Your Honor.
MR. BELL:

Your Honor, we have at least one rebuttal witness and 
possibly another one if we can get hold of them and also a few 
motions and we want it clarified, you recall, that Mayor Thompson 
had been asked to go over his exhibit, the exhibit of the news­

paper articles attributing various statements to him and indicate 
which of those icre true and which were not so we still did have 
a few other matters.
THE COURT:

All right, you want the Mayor back on the stand?
MR. BELL:

I don’t know that that will be necessary if he were 
able to identify or, —  one way or another, indicate what the 

situation was as to those alone. Perhaps that would be the 
easiest way.

THE COURT:

You all just work that out among yourselves. We will 
take a recess until 9:00 o’clock in the morning.



A. Thompson, R e d i r * 1711.

(Friday morning, February 28, 1964, 9:00 A.M., Court was opened 
and the proceedings continued as follows:)
MRS. MORRISS

Your Honor, we would like to recall Mayor Thompson.
When he testified before he was given some clippings represent­
ing statements he had made and I believe he was instructed by 
the Court that he take the clippings and study them and testify 
as to whether or not they were statements made by him. I would 
like to clear that up at this time, and hand him the exhibit, 
which has been marked P-27 for identification, and ask him about 
them.

MAYOR ALLEN THOMPSON

having been previously sworn, took the stand and testified as 
follows :

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
MRS. MORRIS:

Q. Now, Mayor Thompson, these statements you have been 
instructed by the Court to compare them with your original 

statements and see if ~
THE COURT:

I didn’t instruct him to do anything. Let’s get this 
clear for the record. I permitted him to do that.

MRS. MORRIS:
All right, Your Honor.

Q. N©w, Mayor Thompson, have you compared these statements



A. Thompson, Redir 1712.

to determine if they were correctly quoted?
A. Well, I have not in each instance, although I can go

over them. As far as possible, I have looked at them to deter­

mine what was said, but they go back over a period of time.

Q. Now, as to the third page on Exhibit 27, would you read 
that and tell us if that represents what you said?

A. The quotes are more or less accurate, but all of these 
statements were made over a period of time. Some are quotes and 

some are just comments taken out of contextj in fact, each one 
of these were taken out of context, and I would say every dis­
cussion that I entered into was prefaced with the statement 

that I was against unlawful activities, unlawful demonstrations, 
unlawful picketing, unlawful marches, unlawful activities, and 
each one of these statements was taken in connection with that 
and are in conjunction with that. That was the way invariably 

I started off every discussion that I made.
Q. This one that we are looking at, on page 3 of Exhibit 

_27, did you make these remarks that were quotes here?
A. That has to do with the Governor and the rights of the 

people .

MR. WATKINS:
I want to object to this, Your Honor, I cannot see how 

this line of questioning has anything to do with the issues in 

t hi s lawsuit.

THE COURT:



A» Thompson, R e d i r . 1713.

It was my understanding that these were allowed to go 
in for the purpose of identification. You can examine him
about it just as counsel was allowed to examine the witness 
yesterday about newspaper clippings. These are reporters that 

have written these articles, and we are not trying the reporters. 
Go ahead and ask your question.
MRS. MORRIS:

Q. Now, on page 4 of Exhibit 27, were you quoted correctly 
in saying you were satisfied that the federal occupation of the 
City of Oxford was illegal?

A. ”The federal occupation of Oxford was illegal, and the 
City of Jackson would challenge through the courts any similar 

action here That was my belief.
MR. WATKINS:

May it please the Court, that hasn*t got a thing in the 

world to do with this lawsuit.

THE COURT: 1
I sustain the objection to that.

MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Does it accurately reflect what you said on that 

o cca sio n?
MR. WATKINS:

May it. please the Court, we have objected to that and 

you have sustained the objection.

THE COURT :



A. Thompson, R e d i r . 1714.

I have sustained the objection to that.
MRS. MORRIS:

Q. What about page 5, the same question?
A. It refers to the public officials handling the situation 

in Jackson. That is, as I stated, taken out of context in which 
I was saying that these things should be handled by the officials, 
any law violations, demonstrations, were matters for the police, 
and not for any individuals.

Q. Page 5 of Exhibit 27 has 1, 2, 3 quotes in that article, 
do those represent accurate quotes or not?

A. They would have to be taken in conjunction with what 
had been said, outside agitators, who come in with threats, 

demonstrations were matters for the public officials. "You 
didntt see our local Negro parents involved, it was the NAAGP, 
agitators, those who do it for political reasons, those that make 
money"- that would have been in conjunction with many things in 
line with it.

Q. Now, would you examine the next page, Mayor Thompson,
I want to know if the quote accurately represents what you said 
on that occasion?

A. ,lCarl Rachlin of New York, counsel for the priests,” —  

THE COURT :

Read it to yourself, Mayor.

MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Is that an accurate quotation of what you said?



A. Thompson, R e d i r . 1715.

A. That is as accurate as possible taken out of context, 

and with the same explanation as before that every single thing 

in here was mentioned as a result of unlawful demonstrations, 
unlawful activities, and unlawful threats by outside agitators.

Q. Now, on page 7 of Exhibit 27, does that accurately 
reflect your views?

A. The same answer to this as in the others except this 
differs and the others differ, but in the main we were not going 
to agree to a bi-racial committee under threats of mass marches, 
picketing and boycotting —

Q. Then this does accurately reflect your views?
A. It bears out that that was the reason, because of the 

unlawful threats, demonstrations, and all of this is like the 
other questions, I do not know whether it is accurate or not, 

whether I said this particular thing, but this "under threat of 

mass marches" is correct.
Q. Have you ever gotten in touch with the newspaper and 

ask that these be retracted?

A. I do not ever make a practice of asking the newspapers 
to change any statement. In the first place, people forget it 

by the next day until it is brought into a Court like this. Then 

it calls attention to something that is a mistake on both parts. 

My idea is that it does not help to call attention to something 

that is not exactly right when people will forget it the next

day anyway.



Q. Page 8 of Exhibit 27, does that accurately reflect your 

views?
A. I don’t remember saying all these things.
Q. Bo you recall saying any of them?
A. Anything I said is taken out of context.
Q. Do you remember saying any of them, Mayor Thompson?
A. No, I don’t remember saying them as it is down here.
Q. Then your views are not consistent with Page 8?
A. Not completely.

MR. WATKINS:
Now, Your Honor, I am going to object to her asking if 

that reflected his views, asking if he said something is one 
thing, - the newspaper article put in front of him could not 

possibly be representative - 
THE COURT:

I understand counsel, I think you are more concerned 
with the quotation rather than whether his views or feelings 
are expressed, and I will sustain the ob j ect io n in qpart , but 

I will allow you to ask him about whether or not it is an 
accurate reflection of what he said.

THE WITNESS:
”He called on city employees and all other Jacksonians 

to go about their normal business, keep going to shopping cen­

ters, because people who break the law are going to be picked 

up and go to Jail.” That expresses my views.

A. Thompson, Redir. 1716.

”We are not going



A. Thompson* R e d i r . 1717.

to threaten anybody in the world.” That expresses my views.
"How in the world can Negroes win any kind of fight like this; 

they can demonstrate, they can march, they can riot, or they can 
throw rocks and assemble like they did this morning, but what 
are they going to gain?” That expresses my views.
MRS. MORRIS:

Q. What about the comments about Tougaloo College?
THE COURT:

About what?
MRS. MORRIS:

Tougaloo College.

A. "When the Kennedys leave office, the NAACP has collected 
all the money it can milk oit of the people, who are the fine 
Negro people going to be looking to, - the people they have been 
working with side by side all their lives."
THE COURT :

But I want to point out that in my view, the Mayor does 
not write the ordinances for the City. In fact, he is just a 

Mayor and there are three people elected to write the City laws, 
and comments attributed to him in a newspaper would not be the 

policy of the City, when it is not up to him alone to decide that. 

MR. BELL:

May I just say a few remarks on that, Your Honor. The 
cases decided by the Supreme Court, such as the one from South 

Carolina, I believe the Patterson case, involving a trespass on



on a segregation ordinance, the Court held when such an ordinance 

exists the persons could not be convicted for trespassing, for 
sitting in privately owned restaurants, and it was said that the 

ordinance was the overriding policy notwithstanding what the 
individuals view might be - and in the Lombard case from 
Louisiana -- 
THE COURT:

That is what I was addressing myself to.
MR. BELL:

There was no ordinance, but they pointed to an example 
made by the Mayor of what his position would be as far as not 
permitting any such demonstrations. They said here the policy 
of the City is shown through the statements of the Mayor, and 

as here in this situation, we are trying to show the policy of 

the municipality has the same effect as an ordinance, if those 

practices are followed according to the public statements by 
the Mayor.

THE COURT:

I don’t think it is given to the Mayor of Jackson to 
establish the public policy of the City of Jackson. I think 
that is the duty of the three of them.

MR. WATKINS:

Excuse me, Your Honor. In the Lombard case there were 

repeated definite public statements by a Mayor purporting to

A. Thompson, Redir. 171 ",

speak for the official city of New Orleans, and in no instance



A. Thompson, Redir . 1719.

that Mayor Thompson has been questioned about did he attempt to 
say that the policy of the City of Jackson was one thing or 

another .
THE COURT:

If one person were going to make the rules for a munici­
pality there would be no need to go to the expense of electing 
City Commissioners to serve with the Mayor to make these deci­

sions .
MR. BELL:

I just wanted to try to explain a little bit about what 

we had in mind.
THE COURT:

I knew what you had in mind. 

MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Now, Mayor Thompson, on page 8 of Exhibit 27?
A. Now, this is taken out of context, and the only policy 

as mentioned to them by the Mayor and Commissioners was that 
unlawful acts of any kind would be prohibited. That has to be 

tied into it, it is taken out of context - and any statements 
made as my personal opinion could be some times right or wrong.

Q. What about the statement concerning Tougaloo College?

A. "Tougaloo College is the cancer of this whole thing."

Q. It is not necessary to read it unless you prefer to.

A. "They get folks to come in and try to take over."

Those are not my exact words or complete words.



A, Thompson, R e d i r . 1720.

Q. Did you say something similar to this?

A. It was taken out of context, I have said many times that 
Tougaloo College was the center of the whole agitation, and was 

bringing in all these outside agitators to go into the churches, 
to go out and threaten people, to start unlawful demonstrations, 
and other unlawful activities and that they are encouraged at 

that particular place.
Q. Now, on page 9 of Exhibit 27, does that accurately 

reflect what you said?
A. The same answer in connection with this.

THE COURT:
Is that a copy of a newspaper article?

THE WITNESS:
From the Clarion Ledger, and it just goes on along the 

same line, "any person who breaks the law is going to be picked 
up and taken to jail"; it is all telling the citizens that the 
City Administration intends to uphold the law, and to prevent 

unlawful operations of any kind, unlawful agitators, unlawful 

demonstrations, and threats. In other words, it is just the 

duty of the Mayor and Commissioners of a city.

THE COURT:
Do you establish and make the public policies of the 

City of Jackson?

THE WITNESS:
There is not any way for me as Mayor to do that, Your



A. Thompson, R e d i r . 1721.

Honor .
THE COURT:

Q. Bo you attempt, yourself, to make public policies?
A. It wouldnTt be possible even if I tried.

MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Are these your quotes as expressed on page 9, Mayor 

Thompson?
A. All this is the same as with the others, it is taken 

out of context.
Q. Is there anything that appears on page 9 in quotations 

that you havenft said?

A. Everything I am quoted as saying, it would be impossible 
for me to remember everything I have said, - but what I am saying 

it all has been stated in conjunction with the civil disturbances, 

demonstrations, andother activities initiated for the purpose of 

creating strife.
Q. Now, my question was -
A. Just a minute, I am reading here, and these things 

would have to be taken in conjunction with that, and not out of 

cont ext.
Q. My question was simply, was there anything here in 

quotes that you didn*t say, to the best of your knowledge?
A. To the best of my knowledge, what I said was explaining 

that unlawful disturbances - I would have to go over each one

of these and answer yes or no



A. Thompson, Redir 1722 .

Q. Would you do that for me?
A. The first one "Jackson is facing a great opportunity as 

well as a strong challenge. As your Mayor and Commissioners we 
are responsible for maintaining law and order as well as looking 

after the civil affairs and interest of all citizens, this we 
will do, but we need the cooperation of every loyal white and 

colored citizen. The civil disobedience demonstrations of the 
past two days were planned for the purpose of creating strife,"
- that is my belief, - "arousing passions, and disrupting busi­

ness." - This is my belief.
THE COURT:

What time are you talking about?

THE WITNESS:
That was back in May after all the trouble - itTs 

dated May 31st, 1963. "It is the hope of the racial agitators 
that hoodlums, ruffians and juvenile delinquents, as well as 
thoughtless individuals of both races, will take matters in 

their own hands and cause violence." That is my belief.

THE COURT:
I didnTt get that.

THE WITNESS:
"It is the hope of the racial agitators that hoodlums, 

ruffians and juvenile delinquents, as well as thoughtless indi­

viduals of both races, will take matters in their own hands and 

cause violence." That is my belief. They put 600 juveniles in



A. Thompson, Redir. 1723 .

front of these other people, and they were arrested and taken 

down to jail and released to their parents. "This will support 
their plea that federal troops and marshals be used." That is 

my belief .
"We can handle any organized demonstrations with our 

law enforcement officers who are trained to deal with such 
matters. Our great opportunity is to be the first city in the 
nation to handle this organized racial disturbance with dignity, 

calmness, and without violence. Your part as loyal citizens 
both white and colored is to ignore the demonstrators, go about 

your usual business, do not avoid Capitol Street and its mer­

chants. Do not stop and congregate around any demonstrators, 

either in private places of business or in public places.
"If you will cooperate with us in this way, we can 

handle this crisis, in a manner that will leave the best possible 
spirit or mutual trust and good-will between responsible citizens 

and races .
"These racial agitators will pass and we need to handle 

them in such manner as to improve the mutual spirit of coopera­

tion so that our city can continue its progress for the best 

interest of all citizens." That is my belief.
"If we need more space, ITm sure the Governor and the 

Legislature will allow us to use the state penitentiary." That 

is my belief .
"Two hundred cots, mattresses and blankets are available



A. Thompson, Redir. 1724.

and we can have thousands more at a minute’s notice.” The cots 
and mattresses were made available and the people tore up the 
cots and mattresses hitting them on the side of the wall.

MRS. MORRIS:
Q. You say you know this?
A. That is what happened.
Q. It was reported to you?
Q. Oh, yes. "Any person who breaks the law is going to be 

picked up and taken to jail." That is my hope. Everything after 
that is taken out of context. "There will be no violence in 

Jackson and people will be protected from violence." It says 
something about a collision course here, that is generally what 
I believe, - what has been going on and being threatened by the 
agitators all over the country, that outsiders are going to 
come in and take over ~ this is a collision course unless this 
can be handled in a lawful manner. These people who want every­

thing for nothing and think it can be gotten by making demands 
and having demonstrations instead of earning it, things are not 

accomplished by those means.
They can demonstrate, march, picket and riot from now 

on, but they cannot win like this, it won’t get them more money, 
more schools or better jobs. The only way to get these things 

is by going along with us, "and going along in a community where 

law and order is maintained. " There is opportunity here in 

Jackson, plenty of jobs, and we will help people get jobs if they



Mayor Thompson, Redir. 1725.

need jobs, we don*t have any slum districts, there is good 
housing and good facilities. That is what I meant by that, 
and the way it is is not exactly as I stated it.

"When Kennedy is out of office, and the NAACP has milk­
ed innocent Negroes of their money and moved on, local Negroes 
are going to have to look to the white people who have helped 
them all the time." All I meant by that, local colored 
people and local white people will have to continue to get 
along and live side by side as they have for a hundred years.

"He urged the white community not to let the action of 
a few radicals create hard feelings against all local Negroes." 
We have tried very hard to keep the people, the good white 
people and the good colored people, from being antagonized 
toward the colored people because of these activities by 
agitators who come in, possibly a thousand in this whole 
country who are causing this trouble, and making it hard on 
not just white people but good colored people. They come 
in and frighten them, won’t even let them put up trees at 
Christmas, and I have urged the people not to feel upset 
toward the good colored people because of what these agitators 

have done.
"Local parks, playgrounds and libraries have been de­

segregated by court order. If radicals try to take them
over, they will all be closed. Nearly all the money to build



Mayor Thompson, R e d i r . 1726.

these facilities has come from white people. If they see 
that they are not going to be able to use them in peace, they 
won’t keep paying for their operation.” That is plain, com­
mon sense, as I see it. If these big crowds start wanting 
to go down and take it over, it is going to make a problem 
for everybody. Of course, all these things can be worked 
out, but the point I was making, these agitators, who are 
not really interested in the Negro being educated, and who 
are not really interested in getting schools for the Negroes 
or getting jobs for thejn, they are only interested in causing 
trouble to force their demands.

"Public swimming pools won’t be open just yet because

of minor water troubles ." We had S'ome trouble with water

in the pools last., year •
"City officials have the support of a tremendous numb

of local negroes who wa nt pea ce and quiet . They don’t wa nt

Jackson to develop into the same mess as other citi es who

are not safe to live in peace ." That’s right. We have

the best opportunity ;of any place in the country. Now,
the se don’t express my whole views, they are taken out of

cont ext .
"Tougaloo College and Campbell College are the cancer 

of this racial mess.” I don’t know how cancer applied to

that. “This mess will pass and we will be just like we were



Mayor Thompson, Redir. 1727.

before it started —  unless we give in to the demands and 
threats of these radicals." That means unlawful demonstra­
tions, unlawful threats.

"Thompson urged parents to keep track of their children 

during the current tensions. 1 Enow where they are$ he said, 
’and make sure they are at home at the proper times1. That 
is what I said. "Teenagers were responsible for much of the 
racial violence1.* That’ 3 right .

(There was an interruption here when the Court told 
some waiting attorneys that he would not be able 
to take up motions until the trial of this case 
was over)

THE COURT:
All right, go ahead.

THE WITNESS:
"Teenagers were responsible for much of the racial 

violence which erupted Tuesday over a sit-in demonstration 
at the lunch counter at Woolworth’s on E. Capitol. Fast 
moving Jackson police smothered three downtown demonstration 

attempts and routed a group of rock-throwing Negro students 
at Lanier High School. A Shrine parade scheduled for noon 

Thursday was cancelled by police officials as a preventive 
measure. Fourteen demonstrators, including four ministers, 

and whites and Negroes, were arrested in the late afternoon



Mayor Thompson, Redir 1728

as they attempted to hold a prayer meeting on the Capitol 
Street steps of the Post Office.

"Three leading agitators were jailed in the incident, 
including the Rev. R. E. King, white chaplain at Tougaloo 
Christian College, who was hauled to a police paddy wagon by 
Negro trusties as he dropped to his knees following his 
arrest.

"Some 500 students at Negro Lanier High School left 
their classes to participate in a demonstration which police 
officials say was apparently staged for the benefit of re­

porters and photographers. They booed and threw rocks at 
police officers, chanting *We want freedom. We want freedom. 
This is part of what I said during that time. As I have men­
tioned, statements that I have made were made in conjunction 
with these unlawful efforts by these agitators to tear up a 
peaceful city and the efforts of the law enforcement officers 
to keep them from their unlawful activities.
THE COURT:

This is still May 3lst?

MRS. MORRIS:

Q. Now, we move on to page 10, dated October 31, 1963. 

I direct your attention, Mayor Thompson, to the words under­

lined, and ask you to tell us if you were correctly quoted, 
and whether that reflects accurately your statements.



Mayor Thompson, Redir 1729 .

"He told Chancery Judge Stokes Robertson he could have 
cut off demonstrations during the three months of tension by 
appointing an NAACP-sponsored bi-racial committee, but warned 
Tthat was just the beginning. It would have led to taking 
over operation of the city by the NAACP.T,t That is correct. 
The NAACP insisted that the Commissioners and I appoint a 
bi-racial committee, and they would have taken over the whole 
city, this would only have been the first of their demands.
I told him that within a very short while demands would be 
made in other areas.
THE COURT:

Who is him?
THE WITNESS:

I am talking to Judge Robertson in court, the 
injunction hearing before Judge Robertson.
MR. WATKINS:

We object to taking the newspaper report as evi­
dence of what Mayor Thompson said in that court hearing.
The transcript would be the best evidence. I think there 
is an inconsistency there.

MRS. MORRIS:

I will offer the transcript of the Mayorts testi­
mony if you will go along with us. I am perfectly willing 
for the testimony of the Mayor to go in.



Mayor Thompson, Redir . 1730 .

MR. WATKINS:
I think the transcript in its entirety should go 

in if any part of it goes in.

MRS. MORRIS:
The Mayor’s testimony.

MR. WATKINS:
I am not bargaining with you, counsel, I am addres­

sing my remarks to the Court. We object to quoting from a 
newspaper article what the Mayor said at that hearing.

THE COURT:
I will take that up at the proper time. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS:
"Thompson said he considered a bi-racial committee 

’against the law because they would appoint somebody to run

my city’J - That my city meant 
cials - but I do believe this, 
tee that I have ever seen, the 

and assumes all the authority, 

antagonize the people. Let’s 
"It is going to pop 

a conqueror, and that’s what 

is referring to these unlawful 

ities. That’s right.
"-charged that seven

that there were elected offi- 
that in any bi—racial commit- 
radical element takes over 

and that would only help to 

lee further on this. 
iut again. You can’t satisfy 
they would have been." That 

agitators and unlawful activ-

proposals demanded by the
NAACP made difficult improvements he claimed he had already



Mayor Thompson, R e d i r . 1731.

planned."
THE COURT:

I would rather you didn*t lean back against the

wall.
MRS. MORRIS:

I am sorry.

THE WITNESS:
In other words, when these demonstrations and ac­

tivities were put on by these agitators, it made it impos­
sible to take care of these facilities and all for the 
colored people that we had been doing, but we went ahead 
in spite of these things, and did all this.

"You would have marvelled at the calmness and res­
traint the police showed when they had bricks and bottles 
thrown at them, and were called everything in the world",
I told a New York NAACP attorney that.

"Thompson testified he has no control over church 
segregation in Jackson. Whatever the churches decide as 
to whom they should keep out, that is entirely up to them.* 
Police will not intervene unless violence erupts.

"He denied that the 1954 school integration deci­
sion is binding in Jackson." I won’t go into that, but the 

record will show what I had to say, but whatever I said is 

just an opinion and the Court would hold what is right on



Mayor Thompson, Redir . 1732 .

that. That is not a part of this lawsuit.
•‘It was decided one way in the 1800* s and after 

years of litigation it was decided another way. As far as 
I am concerned it has not been decided in Jackson.** That 
was all general, in the school case.

•‘Thompson charged Wednesday that anti-segregation 
demonstrations last summer were designed to ‘intimidate 
Jackson whether it was lawful or not*.** That*s right.

“He called together city officials in mid-May to 
prepare for this expected invasion of outside agitators 
coupled with local agitators’after receiving letters from 
the NAACP demanding an end to segregation practices in Jack- 
son." It was not just segregation demands alone, it was 
other unlawful and ridiculous demands.

“He said he considered the letters and following 
telegrams threats.

“An uneasy peace and quiet reigned during a flurry 
of communication, which he construed as a threat to do any­
thing they wanted to.** In conjunction with this, these 

agitators came to me, they said if they got so and so, all 

right, otherwise, we will demonstrate. They didn’t get what 
they asked because it was illegal and not in line what what 

we believe to be within the law and in the best interest 

of white and colored people. They thought they could do us 
as they have done in other cities, to have demonstrations



and scare the public into doing things illegal.
"Integration groups, Thompson testified, told city 

officials ’if we didn’t do what they said, there would be 
enough violence to make us do it.” ’ That’s right.

"He said he feared the group’s threats of direct 

action would tear up a city." That’s right.

MRS. MORRIS
Q. All right, Mayor Thompson, this is the final one, 

page 11 of Exhibit 27, would you do the same thing with that 

one?
A. This is December 6th, in the Times Picayune„ ~

"was hiring extra personnel as a deterrent to future racial 

problems." That’s right.
". . . told city department heads the city was 

increasing an effort to protect Jackson business firms and 
customers from threats or intimidations by ’agitator groups.’ 

That’s correct .
"The mayor said a Negro church was threatened 

because it bought an organ from a white merchant." That’s 

right.
"We will hire everybody we have to insure that you 

can buy anywhere you want to in the city without fear of 
threat or intimidation." "We are going to prosecute anybody 
we hear trying to prevent people from buying where they want

Mayor Thompson, R e d i r . 17

to." That is correct and we made every effort, but these



Mayor Thompson, Redir. 1734-

colored agitators had the colored people of Jackson so afraid 
around Christmas it was very difficult, although we offered 
protection to anybody who was unlawfully threatened or intimi­
dated. The colored people, so-called, self-styled colored 
leaders even became afraid and tried to stop some of this 
threatening of their own colored people but it had gone too 
far for them to do any good..

"Thompson said Jackson ?would. fill the jail with 
persons responsible for such acts or threats if they are 
reported to us.111 That is in context with all of the other 
that we will put every person who has violated, a law, white or 
colored, that we can apprehend in jail.

"He said it would not be necessary for informants 
to identify themselves for assistance." They were so afraid 

that they wouldn*t even notify the Police ^Department what these 
colored agitators were openly and brazenly doing.

"We have 350 people in the Jackson Police .Depart­
ment with 275 of them being officers, . ." that means handling
-- ". . and we are hiring extra personnel to see that no one 

is subject to threats in this city." Unlawful threats and 
intimidation in line with this, applies to white and to 

colored ,
"The mayor labeled the National Association for the 

Advancement of Colored People the *NACP which covers all agi­

tator groups to me. They are what all intimidators represent



Mayor Thompson, Redir . 1735 .

to me.'" That’s right.

Q. Now, Mayor, I take it that you consider all, —
A. Now, the first pages, I didn’t go over as I did these 

but any statements that I made about the first would be that 
they were exactly as I mentioned only in conjunction with unlaw­
ful demonstrations or unlawful activities, or threats or intimi­
dations .

Q. Now, Mayor, I take it that you consider selective 
buying campaigns or boycotts to be illegal.

A. I think where it is coupled with threats, where they 
threaten people, the threatening part is unlawful. In other 
words, the selective buying put on by these agitator groups 

where they get out these pamphlets ’don’t buy at certain stores,’ 
then they go in and grab the merchandise out of the hands of the 
people, that’s unlawful. Where they threaten to hurt them, 
that’s unlawful. Where they go into a local store and the store 

has to mail packages to them, that’s unlawful. Where they try 
to prohibit by forceful, unlawful threats, anybody having the 

right to follow any peaceful, lawful wish, I consider that unlaw­
ful.

Q. Then I take it that if you remove the threats, you 
have no objection to selective buying or to boycott?

A. I don’t know. If you’ll give me a specific instance, 
I can tell you what I think about, — you are talking about a 

general, - I’d prefer that you give me a hypothetical case, then



I can tell you yes or no about an exact case, but you can’t 
cover anything generally.
MR. WATKINS:

If it please the Court, I want to stop this line of 
questioning on the ground that it calls upon the witness for a 
legal opinion. All of this matter is settled by law and he 
couldn’t change it by answering it one way or the other.
THE COURTS

Well, she’s on cross examination. I’ll let him proceed. 
He’s a lawyer.

Mayor Thompson, Redir. 1736.

MR. WATKINS:

On legal questions, Your Honor? 
THE COURT:

Well, I don’t think that 
as an expert witness, and I don’t 
called, is entitled to express an 
rule your objection.

a witness, unless he is called 
understand that he is so 
opinion, but I’ll still over-

MR. WATKINS:
For the sake of the record, let me add to my objection 

the fact that counsel is not distinguishing between individual 
action in the form of boycott and whether it’s one or more 
people agreed to act together in connection with a boycott, which 

I submit makes a.material difference.

MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Mayor Thompson, didn’t you advocate that.- people, I



Mayor Thompson, 1737 .

think you called it a selective viewing campaign, or boycott 
viewing the Bonanza program after the personnel declined to 
appear at a segregated performance here in Jackson?
MR. WATKINS:

We object to that. It is not material to any issue 
involved in this case.'
THE COURT:

Overruled. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS:

A. My statement in relation to that was to the effect 
that when these Bonanzas were threatened away by a very few 
self-styled colored leaders who told them that they had better 
not come to Jackson, that they refused to come, my statement was 
in indignation that anybody would succumb to that sort of threat 
and deal with the NACP, or SNCC, or any of those elements 

instead of to the persons who contracted with them. I brought 
it up in a complete statement and said that as far as I’m con­
cerned, not as the Mayor of Jackson, that I was not going to 

look at the Bonanzas any more because I thought that they had 

insulted the City of Jackson, the people of the state, by break­

ing a contract, and I was going to practice selective viewing. 
Further in that statement, I said there were no threats, there 

were no intimidations, there was no conspiracy, that it was my 

personal belief that anybody who thought like the Bonanzas ought 

not to come into my house. It was left up entirely to what



Mayor Thompson, 1738 .

other people did. I didn’t go out and threaten anybo dy in the
city, that if they watched them, I would take act ion against
them, a s these NACP foIks do . This wa s my own per s o na 1 belief
in telling them how I felt about it e

Q. Mayor Thompson, is this your stat ement ?
A. This is one of them •

Q. You ma d e that one?
A, This is the second one, yes. This has to do after A1 

Hirt was scared away. He was afraid that he would have trouble, 
that they would demonstrate, that your folks would demonstrate, 
and so he said that he had better not stay around while they are 
demonstrating. Then the Webb matter was mentioned in there. He 
was scared away because you folks said if you come down here I 
think you’ll picket or something to that effect. And then I go 

into the Bonanzas.
Q. But that’s an accurate reproduction of your statement? 

A . That ’ s right . .

MRS. MORRIS:
I’d like to submit this, if your Honor please.

THE COURT:
That statement may be admitted in evidence.

MR. WATKINS:
We object to it as immaterial, Your Honor, to any 

issue in this case. We also object because counsel apparently 

has underlined and emphasized certain sentences in the speech



Mayor Thompson, 1739 .

which I don’t believe would -- 

MRS. MORRIS:

The interlineations did not appear on the originals, 
but I would like it admitted without the interlineations.
THE COURT:

All right, it may be admitted in evidence and be 
properly marked.

(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit P-28.)
MRS . MORRIS:

Q. Mayor Thompson, this was reprinted and widely distri­
buted, wasn’t it?

A . Yes .

MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I may clear the rest of thi s up . I have

no objection to the transcript from the Stat e Court pr oceedi ng
being admitted in evidence in this proc eeding which will clear
up the Mayor’s testimony that he compared to the article in the
paper .

THE COURT:
You want to offer it in evidence?

MRS. MORRIS:
No, I think that —

THE COURT:
Well, you are putting on your rebuttal. 

You want to offer it in evidence?



Mayor Thompson, 1740 .

MRS. MORRIS:

All right, Your Honor, 1*11 off er it in evidence.
THE COURT:

All right, the entire transcript may be admitted in
evidence.
MRS. MORRIS:

I have no further questions.
MR. WATKINS:

She hasn*t made her record yet, where is your tran­
script ?

MRS. MORRIS:

IT11 have to —  we have your copy, my copy, Your 
Honor, is not in -~

MR. WATKINS:

You mean you offer my copy?
MRS. MORRIS:

No, wait a minute. I offer my copy. My copy is not 
here. I will bring it into Court and have it submitted.
THE COURT:

I believe there are four volumes, is that right?

MRS, MORRIS:
Thatts right, and I have a certified copy of the

transcript.
THE COURT:

All right, those four volumes constituting the record



Mayor Thompson, 1741 .

of the trial in the Chancery Court, which was previously marked 
as Defendants’ Exhibits 11, 12, 13, and 14, will now be admitted 
in evidence as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit —  all four volumes will be 

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 29.
(Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit P-29.)

MRS. MORRIS:
I’ll see that they are submitted to the Court.

THE COURT:
All right.

MR. WATKINS:
Just a few questions please, Mayor.

Q. With reference to the Bonanza incident, where was 
that performance to take place?

A. Take place at the Coliseum.
Q. Does the City of Jackson have control over who attends 

or does not attend performances at the Coliseum?

A. No sir.
Q. Where was the A1 Hirt performance to take place?

A. The Coliseum.
Q. Does the City of Jackson have control over who attends 

or does not attend performances there?

A . No sir .
Q. Now, the Webb speech, where was that to take place?

A. Heidelberg Hotel.
Q. Does the city of Jackson have any control over who



Mayor Thompson, 1742 .

attended or did not attend the speech of Mr. Webb?

A. We contributed, the City of Jackson contributed to the 
Chamber of Commerce for this Legislative dinner, but we had no 
control over who was asked to speak. When I say control, if we 
had known about it we probably could have said something about 
it, but we had no control —

Q. I’m not referring to the speaker now. Did you have any 
control over who was in attendance at the meeting?

A. Oh, no sir, other than the Legislature, we asked the 
Legi slature.
MR. WATKINS:

I believe thatls all.
MRS. MORRIS:

Your Honor, I just have two questions. The Coliseum 

is owned by the State of Mississippi?
THE WITNESS:

A . Yes .
Q. And Negroes are not allowed to attend things that go 

on at the Coliseum, is that right?

MR. WATKINS:
We object to that. That’s a matter of State law if 

it is a matter of law. It would certainly require some State, - 

authorized State official to express policy if it’s not by law. 

THE COURT:
I’ll let him answer what he knows about the facts.



Mayor Thompson, 1743 .

THE WITNESS:

A. I donTt know the actual facts, what the State - what 
they do in the Coliseum.
MRS. MORRIS:

Q. You dontt know whether or not Negroes are allowed to 
attend things at the Coliseum?

A. No, I don’t know.
Q. ThatTs your testimony?

A . That*s right .
MRS. MORRIS:

I have no further questions.
MR. BELL:

We would now like to recall Attorney Jack Young.
MR. JACK YOUNG

having been previously sworn, took the stand and testified as 
follows :
MR. BELL:

Q. Your name, sir?
A. Jack H. Young.

Q. And you previous ly testified in this case?

A. Yes , I did.

Q. And at that time did you or did you not testify that
you are an attorney, a Negro attorney in Jackson, and have 

defended a great number of these persons who have been arrested 

as a result of participation in civil rights activities?



J . Yo ung, 1744 .

Q. Now, were you present during yesterday’s hearing at 
which time Defendants offered and had admitted into evidence a 

number of exhibits constituting abstracts of the action taken by 
the local Courts in the prosecutions of some of these persons 
arrested for civil rights demonstrations?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. You will recall, I believe, that those were Defendants’ 
Exhibits 20 through, roughly through 50?

A . Right.

Q. Now, as to a number of those exhibits, do you recall 
that the abstracts indicated that there had been directed ver­
dicts of acquittal, or the individuals were found not guilty?

A . Yes, I do .

Q. In these cases had you followed the procedure that you 
testified to before, namely, of raising constitutional questions 
concerning their right to protest?

A. Yes, we had.

Q. Now, in some other cases, notably Defendants’ Exhibit 
25, concerning Ruth Bracey, arrested May 30, 1963 and who plead 

nolo contendere and was fined $250.00, had a jail term suspended^ 
concerning Exhibit 28, which was the abstract of the action taken 
against Mrs. Bennie Lee Catchings, wherein it showed that she had 

plead nolo contendere, paid the cost and had a jail fine sus­

pended; concerning Exhibit 45, the prosecution of Betty Poole,

A. Yes, I did.



J . Young, 1745 .

wherein it indicated that she had plead nolo contendere and paid 
the costs and had a jail fine suspended.

Now, can you tell the Court what was the reason for, 
in these cases, pleading these persons nolo contendere?

A. Well, —
MR. WATKINS:

We object to why pleas were entered. The record of 
What happened is all that is admissable in evidence, I submit.
MR. BELL:

This is a little surprising, —  I think that anything 
that bears on cases, if it were admitted, I think we have a right 
to explain the circumstances.
THE COURT:

1*11 let him explain. Overrule the objection.
THE WITNESS:

A. These cases were on appeal to County Court and a num- 
ber of the defendants are, - when the cases came up for trial 
on County Court, had not appeared, and by agreement with counsel 

and Court, we had been permitted to enter pleas of nolo conten­

dere for these people who had not appeared, - had not appeared 

for various and sundry reasons. Some of the addresses had been 
changed, some of them had moved out of the city. We notify all 

of these people by mail when the trials are supposed to be had. 

Most of them appear, some of them don*t appear; some of the 

letters come back and we aren’t able to find the people. Now,



J . Young, 1746 .

what happened in these particular cases, 
did not appear and for that reason pleas 
were entered.

I canTt say, but they 
of nolo contendere

THE COURT:

Betty Poole, you knew where she was didn’t you?
THE WITNESS:

A. She was at Tougaloo . Now, why she did not appear, I 
am not able to say, but she didn’t appear in Court at the time 
the case was set for trial.
THE COURT:

Q. She didn’t appear in response to your notice?
A. To our notice, that’s right.

MR. BELL:

Q. I’ll ask you to tell the Court whether or not in —  

approximately, if you know, how many such nolo contendere pleas 
you have had to make while defending these cases on appeal in 
County Court?

A. Well, frankly, I’m not able to give an exact number, 

but I would say that perhaps a third of the persons who have been 
scheduled for trial have not appeared.

Q. Now, tell the Court whether or not any efforts have 
been made to improve the system of notifying the defendants what 
day they are to appear, what Court, so as to reduce this

A. When the defendants were arraigned, the trial dates 

were set. They are set, I think, seven a week, seven or eight a



J . Young, 1747 .

week and they are returnable on the Monday of that week, set for 
call on the Monday of that week, at which time all folks that are
supposed to be tried during that week are supposed to appear.

Now, they were given these trial dates when they were arraigned. 
So, of course, they had that notice. About one or two weeks 
prior to the trial, we send out letters from my office renotify­
ing them to appear. We have found that that does not work very 
effectively, so now we have adopted the system of writing letters 
and in addition to that, going around personally and contacting 
these people to remind them, and if need be, to transport them 
to the Court .

Q. I’ll ask you whether or not some of the folk who had 
not appeared had, - or had not indicated later their lack of 

appearance was due to not knowing that this was the day that they 
were to come into Court —

A. Well, we had some instances where people said that 
they did not get notices. We had one or two instances where 
people were actually in the Courthouse, but were in the wrong 
place, and when they showed up it was too late, the Court was 
o ver.

Q. Now, I ask you to recall, if you can, Defendants* 
Exhibit 34, concerning the action taken in the case of Reverend 

Ralph Edwin King, where he was arrested on a disturbance of the 

peace charge on, - I think the record will show the date, I*m 

not sure exactly what it was, and that a guilty plea was entered



J . Young, 1748 .

for him. Can you explain the circumstances of that?
A. When Reverend King was arrested, this was on the date 

I believe of the funeral of Medgar Evers. Reverend King, along 
with several other persons were arrested. We posted cash appear­

ance bonds for these persons and made no Court appearance. The 
bonds were forfeited.

Q. Was it the intention of counsel to plead Reverend 
King and the other persons on that date guilty of the charges for 
which they were arrested?

A. It was our intention for any person who did not appear 
to enter pleas of nolo contendere for them, but in this case we 

forfeited the bond and we made no appearance at all in the City 
Court.

Q. In all of these cases, has it been the policy where 
you didnTt have the procedural problems that you have been talk­

ing about to raise constitutional questions in the defense of 

these persons at their trial?
A. Well, that has been, - you see, these people have been 

tried under Section 594, or rather Ordinance 594 of the City of 
Jackson, which is an ordinance which prohibits parading, under 

a Section 208715, I believe, of the Mississippi Code, which is 
the breach of the peace statute, under 2296.5, I believe, which 
is obstructing public streets and sidewalks, and under another 
statute, I believe it is 2409, I*m not certain about that, which 

has to do with entering a place of business and refusing to leave



J . Young, 1749 .

on orders to do so by the proprietor. In all of these cases, it 

is our position that the statutes themselves are unconstitutional, 
both on their face and in their application, so in each instance 
when we try these cases, we raise the constitutional issues or 
questions .

Q. I think you testified before, did you not, that all 
of these cases were handled at the local level by yourself and 
two other attorneys, is that right?

A. That is right.
MR. BELL:

No further questions.
MR. NICHOLS:

Q. Attorney Young, you stated on your first examination 
here several days ago, you are an active practitioner of law 
here in the City of Jackson, is that right?

A . Yes, I am.

Q. You are fully familiar with the operation of the City, 
County, and Circuit Courts?

A . Yes, I am.

Q. And with the method by which one appeals from a ver­
dict of the City Court to the County Court, and from the County 

Court to the Circuit Court, and on up to the Supreme Court of 
Mississippi?

A. Yes, lam.

Q. Those appeal statutes and all?



J . You n g , 1750 .

Q. Now, with reference to Exhibits 25, 28, and 45, that 
being Bracey, Catchings, and Poole, you stated to your counsel 
that these were cases that were called and these people did not 
appear, is that right?

A . ThatT s right
Q. And as a result of that, you entered a nolo contendere

plea?

A. Yes, l a m .

A. ThatTs right.
Q. Now, was that the only alternative available to you 

at that time?
A. It was either that or the bond would be forfeited.
Q. In other words, if you had entered no plea and your 

client had not been there, then the State would have called your 

bond, is that correct?
A. The State would have either had to call the bond or 

try the cases in absentia.
Q. In any of these cases that you have been involved in 

here, have any of these exhibits been tried in absentia?

A. No .
Q. So, we might assume that the only other method would 

be the forfeit of the bond?
A. I think that would be correct.
Q. And you are familiar with the State law that the first 

thing you have to take is what is known as a judgment nisi, is



J . Young, 1751 .

that correct?

Q. And that gives you a full term of Court in which to 
get your client in, isn’t that right?

A . Correct .
Q. Has it not been the policy of the County Court of the 

First Judicial District of Hinds County that should you bring 
any of your clients in, that you then move to set the nisi aside 
and that the Court has as a policy set those aside for you?

A. That has been done.
Q. Now, so, at this point, it is a matter of your choice 

as to whether to enter a plea or whether to take another full 
month to find your client, is that correct?

A . Yes .
Q. So out of choice, you entered nolo contendere pleas, 

is that correct?

A . That’s right.
Q. Now, with the matter of Exhibit 34, dealing with the 

Reverend Edwin King, you have posted bonds in the City Court 

before?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And you have posted them since, I believe?

A . Correct .
Q. And, do you not know, and is it not true, that the 

cash bond carries with it a plea of guilty unless the party enters

A . Correct .



J . Young 1752 .

his appearance and changes that plea?
A. I am aware of the fact.
Q. So, actually what Reverend King did was plead guilty 

and put up a bond, which was forfeited when he did not appear?
A. Actually he did not plead guilty. I posted the cash 

bond and the Court entered the plea of guilty.
Q. Yes, but when I say he, Attorney Young, you represent­

ing him at the time, did this as his agent in legal matters and 
so forth?

A. Right, I posted the bond.
Q. Now, you stated that approximately one-third of these 

persons did not appear when their cases were called?

A . That* s ri ght .

Q. Now, is it not true that, without exception, or 
practically every one of these people were arraigned on a day at 
which they actually appeared in Court?

A. That is correct.
Q. And that their cases were set and that they, indivi­

dually, were notified in open Court that their cases would be 
tried on a certain date, is that not correct?

A. That is correct.
Q. Now, you don*t mean to tell this Court that it is the 

fault of the County Court or the fault of the prosecution that 

these don*t appear when they know that their cases are going to 

be tried on a particular date, do you?



J . Young 1753 .

Q. What did you say?
A. I have never made the statement that these folks have 

failed to appear through some fault of the Court .

A. I did not say that.

Q. Or the prosecution?
A. Or the prosecution, no.

Q. Then they knew they were set up for trial and if they
didn’t get there it was more or less their own fault?

A. That’s correct.

Q. I mean it’s not yours, you notified them?

A. I notified them, correct.

Q. So these are just normal things that happen in the

practice of law, aren’t they?
A. I suppose you would have to say that. 

MR . NICHOLS:

MR. BELL:

I believe that’s all, Your Honor.

Q. As a matter of fact, Attorney Young, in some instances

after the trial they were given at the time of arraignment, have 

trial dates been changed, necessitating new notices going out 

from time to time?
A. Yes, trial dates have been changed, but none of those 

folks have failed to appear whose trial dates have been changed.
Q. After the other two attorneys, what are their names

who helped you with these cases?



J . Young 1754 .

Q. Are they both Negro attorneys?
A . Yes, they are.

MR. BELL:
No further questions.
We have only a few other minor matters to clear up, 

Your Honor. You will recall when we were in the newspaper 
clipping phase of the case, we had offered as a final exhibit 
of this type, a group of newspaper clippings of the proceedings 
of this trial, as reported by the two papers with daily circula­
tion, the Jackson Daily News and the Clarion Ledger. Counsel 

for the Defendants objected and y®u sustained the objection to 
those clippings on the basis that you thought they were irrele­
vant, I believe, and also you didn’t need the newspapers for, —  

you said you had the record of the case. Nevertheless, we wanted 
to have them marked for identification and you indicated that at 

the conclusion of the trial, we would be able to do that.
I have here for that exhibit for identification a 

group of the clippings, which is short only the clippings from 

this morning’s paper and the paper that will come out this after­
noon, and I would like at this time to request permission to add 
those two clippings to it and bring it to the clerk’s office 
this afternoon so that it could be marked for identification for 

the purposes as indicated.

A. Carsie A. Hall and R. Jess Brown.

MR. WATKINS:



1755 .

We would object to its being offered in evidence,
Your Honor.
MR • BELL:

Yes, I want to make clear that they had objected and 
you had sustained their objection to having this admitted in 

evidence, Your Honor.

THE COURT:
Well, what is it you want to do then?

MR. BELL:
I just wanted to make sure to remind you that we did 

have this additional exhibit for identification that had not yet 

been handed up and it is under Rule 43, and I will bring it in 
as soon as it is completed this afternoon.
THE COURT:

The objection is still sustained. I have a reporter; 

I think the newspapers are just fine, they are sitting over here 
in the box and you can call one of them as a witness if you want 
to, but we are not going to put newspapers in a record in this 

Court .

MR. BELL:
All right, Your Honor.
Next, we would like to offer two amendments to the 

prayer of count 1 of the complaint, pursuant to Rule 15 of the 
Federal Rules of Civil Procedures and, to make it clear, I have 

set out the Section of the Article ——



17 56 .

I just don’t want to stop this case to take up 

motions. Are you resting?
MR. BELL:

THE COURT:

Yes, this is just in the final, - we have no more

t estimony.
THE COURT:

Then the Plaintiffs rest?
MR. BELL:

Yes .
THE COURT:

Does the Defense have anything further?

MR. WATKINS:
No sir.

THE COURT:
All right, now you want to call up this motion, do

you?
MR . BELL:

Yes, Your Honor. I think I have set it forth here 

in fairly self-explanatory fashion. The additions and dele­

tions that we wanted to make; —  two paragraph in the prayer, 

count 1 of the complaint.

MR . WATKINS:
If it please the Court, as far as the City Officials 

are concerned, we object to these amendments as not being



17 5 7 .

justified by any of the evidence offered in this case and not 
having been entirely made, and we submit that amendments of this 
kind, at this time are improper under the evidence offered in 
the case.
THE COURT:

All right, 1*11 overrule the objection and allow the 
amendments to be made in accordance with the motion.
MR. BELL:

And so I can prepare, insofar as the Court —  an 
order to that effect?
THE COURT:

Yes.
MR. BELL:

Thank you. We have nothing further, Your Honor.
MR. McLENDON:

May it please the Court, Mr. Watkins included that 
City Officials only, I would like to register the objection of 
the State Officials to the amendment.
THE COURT :

Amendments are allowed very liberally in Federal Court 
in all stages of the case, even after the conclusion of the case, 

to conform with the evidence and in view of that policy,
1*11 overrule the objection.
MR. BELL:

Now, I guess we really - we have no more, Your Honor



1758 .
I guess this would be the appropriate time to talk in terms of 
your wishes, what would be helpful to you as far as briefs are 
concerned .
THE COURT :

Well, do you want to make an oral argument?
MR. BELL:

I think not, Your Honor, unless you feel that it 
would be helpful. I think you indicated at the beginning that 
you thought that you were hearing the evidence and that was 
going to be most helpful to you. I think for our part we would 
probably prepare —  supply the Court with perhaps suggested 

findings of facts and conclusions of law and a brief on the 
merits of the case.
THE COURT:

All right, do you want to argue it after you have
briefed it?
MR. BELL:

I would leave it to the Court. If the Court thought 
it would be helpful, why I certainly would be willing to —
THE COURT:

ITm never going to tell a client what his duty or 
responsibility is because I think that*s very largely as he feels 
it. Frankly, I always thought it as much my duty to make an 
argument as I did to appear. I have seen a lot of judges who 

didn*t agree with that. Some of them are very vocal about it



1759.

and kind of violent. When Judge Griffith was on the bench he 
took the position that it was kind of an affront to him, that you 

thought he wouldn’t read what you wrote or something, but I don’t 
feel that way about it.
MR. BELL:

In that case, I would very much like to prepare and 
make an oral argument, which I think would be of more value after 
we got some of this mass of evidence in some sort of organized 
fa shion.
THE COURT:

Well, how much time do you want to brief it?
MR . BELL:

I believe that the Court Reporter is going to be able 
to have the transcript of the proceedings ready in fairly short 
order, — would you indicate that perhaps by the end of next week? 
THE REPORTER:

I would say two weeks from now.
THE COURT:

Well, I want to remind you as a practical proposition 
that this thing gets colder and colder with me as time runs on 
and I shan’t ever usurp the function of an Appellant Judge to 

read a record. I’ll read parts and take references to records, 
but I’m not going to read this stuff. That’s the reason I sit 

here, otherwise I might have been doing something else while this 

was taking place. I’ve got very extensive notes that are very



1760 .

meaningful to me and the quicker we have this argument, the more 
helpful it will be to me.
MR . BELL:

Well, whatever would be —

THE COURT:
Well, if you want two weeks, that’s all right.

MR. BELL:
I thought we would be able to document the thing and 

prepare the findings, or suggested findings, and things of this 
nature —  would be of some aid
THE COURT:

I would think you could do that. How much time do 

you want, Mr. Watkins?

MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, do I understand that at some unsuggested 

date thus far, they are going to submit a brief and then are we 
to reply or should we submit a brief simultaneously?

THE COURT:
Well, I invite independent briefs because if I ask 

for responsive briefs, that’s a further delay in the matter.

MR . WATKINS:
Your Honor, I think what counsel had in mind was 

that it would be helpful for him to have the transcript to write 

his brief. I concur in that. I took notes too, but sometimes 

I wasn’t able to take notes when I was questioning a witness.



1761 .

I r eali ze that .
MR. WATKINS:

And so I would suggest that we each say to the Court 
that we will submit our brief to the Court within two weeks 
after we get the transcript of the evidence, and that we will 
then suggest; to the Court, or ask the Court to suggest to us, 
when he would like to hear oral arguments on this.
THE COURT:

All right. And you would gear your briefs then to 
the record and make references in your briefs to places in the 

record?
MR. WATKINS:

Yes sir.
THE COURT:

I’ll certainly read that, but I won’t read the whole

record .
MR. BELL:

Oh no, we didn’t expect you to, but I thought it 
would be better if we could make reference to the record.

THE COURT:
All right, then just make a note, please mam, that 

independent briefs will be filed two weeks after a copy of the 

record is filed with the Court.

THE COURT:

MR. BELL:



1762 .
We have nothing further, Your Honor.

All right, Court will stand in recess.
(This concluded the hearing on Friday morning, 
February 28, 1964.)

COURT REPORTEii* S CERTIFICATE 
State of Mississippi 
County of Hinds

I, Meta Nicholson, Official Court Reporter of the Oil 
and Gas Board, Jackson, Mississippi, certify that I was called 
in to take the official record in the Federal Court at Jackson, 
Mississippi, of the N»A.A«C»P., etc* vs. Mayor Allen Thompson, 
etc., beginning on February 3, 1964, running through February 4, 
5, 6, 1964, then adjourning and taking up again the same case 
on February 27, 1964, and going through the morning of February 
28, 1964, - I certify that I have so taken down the above 
proceedings at those times and in that place, in shorthand, 
and tape-recorded the same, and have had the same typed up under 
my supervision, and the foregoing pages, 1 through 1368, both 

inclusive, are a true and correct copy of the testimony so taken, 
to the very best of my ability. Witness my signature and seal, 
this 12th day of March, 1964*

THE COURTS



1763

CERTIFICATE OF PRINTER PREPARING RECORD

I, Meta Nicholson, of the M &• R Reporting Service, Jackson, 
Mississippi, certify to the best of my skill and ability I have 
prepared the record foregoing for the Fifth Circuit Court of 
Appeals in New Orleans, and that this is a full designated 
copy of the record, as it was sent to me by the Clerk of 
Court of the Fifth Circuit in New Orleans, and that I have 

this day sent out by mail the copies as required by law, 
this the day of September, 1964

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