NAACP v. Thompson Transcript of Record Vol. VI
Public Court Documents
September 24, 1964

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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. NAACP v. Thompson Transcript of Record Vol. VI, 1964. 541fe915-bf9a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/92474852-b9fb-4c67-8442-f7aa24be72bf/naacp-v-thompson-transcript-of-record-vol-vi. Accessed April 19, 2025.
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Transcript of Record UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FIFTH CIRCUIT NO. 21741 NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF COLORED PEOPLE, ET AL, VS . ALLEN THOMPSON, MAYOR OF THE CITY OF JACKSON, MISSISSIPPI, ET AL, VOLUME VI Pages 1469 through end APPELLANTS APPELLEES (Appeal from the United States District Court for the Southern District of Mississippi) Vll VOLUME VI I N D E X (Continued) Page TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL 27,28, 1964- CONTINUED OF FEBRUARY 3,4,5,6, Dir Cr , L. Black (continued) 1469 THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 1964 (Def.) D-20 Exs. D-21,D-22,D-23 Redir 1472 R ecr. 1479 Ex . Def TRIAL ENDED CERTIFICATE OF PRINTER PREPARING RECORD 1469 1484 1484 1485 Def . Exs . D-24, D-25, D-26 1487 Def . Ex. 27 1488 Def . Ex. 28 1489 Def . Ex. 29 1490 Def . Ex. 31, Ex. 32 1491 Def . Ex. 33, Ex. 34 1492 Def . Ex. 35, Ex. 36 1493 Def . Ex . 37, Ex. 38 1494 Def . Exs . 39, 40, 41 1495 Def . Exs 42, 43 1496 Def . Exs . 44, 45 1497 Def . Exs . 46, 47 1498 Def . Exs . 48, 49 1499 Def . Ex. 50 1500 Def . Ex. 4 marked in evid enc e 1500 Def . Exs . 5, 6, 7, 10, 3 in evidenc e 1501 Def . Exs . 51, 52 1504 Mr . John L . Ray 1505 1560 Mr . Cliff Bingham 1604 1616 1628 Mr . W . C . Sho emaker 1630 1643 Mr. Beaver s Armstrong 1652 1665 J udg e Carl Guernsey 1673 1684 Mr . S . B . Barnes 1687 1697 Def.. ex. 54 1689 Mr. Charle s Evers 1701 Def . Ex. 55 1691 Def . Ex. 56 1692 Def . Ex. 57 1693 Def . Ex. 58 1708 Def . 11, 12,13,14 withdrawn 1710 Mayor Allen Thompson 1711 Plaintiff Ex. 28 1739 P la intiff Ex. 29 1741 Mr . Ja ck Yo ung 1743 1762 1763 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (J. L. Black - Cross) 1469 . A. Well, yes, the way they were introduced and also by the — when they did have a program. When they had a planned meeting, for instance, when Lena Horne was here and some of the bigger celebrities in the organization were here, they always had a printed program, and it was entitled usually, "NAACP Mass Meeting". Q. And other than those, you took it from the way people were introduced, I take it? A. Yes. They were introduced as their name and who they were. Q. They were identified? A. I mean what office they were with. Q. Was anybody there from the Red Cross? A. They weren’t introduced if they were. Q. Girl Scouts? A. They weren’t introduced. Q. Would you have any way of knowing if there was? A. No. Q. The crowd changed from night to night? A. You mean in the difference of people — perhaps, I don’t know. Q. You couldn’t identify the same people as being there each night? A. Not all of them. Some of them I could.. Q. The ones you’ve talked about, you could? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (J* L. Black — Cross) 1470. A. Yes, and some of the others I knew by seeing them in the office. Q. I believe you made one error, and we can correct it for the record. When you talked about John Salter being introduced on June the 4th, you said he was introduced as chairman of the strategy committee, and I think for the sake of clearing it up, see if he wasn't introduced as co-chairman. A. When was that? Q. June 4th, 1963. THE COURT: I didn't understand what your question was. MRS. MORRIS: I beg your pardon. THE COURT: I didn't understand what your question was to him. MRS. MORRIS: He made a — the witness has testified to a lot of this which is in the state proceeding and I was just trying to clear up for the record how somebody was introduced, so it will coincide with other testimony. THE COURT: You're asking him about Salter? MRS. MORRIS: Yes. When he testified, he said chairman. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (J. L. Black - Cross) 1471 THE COURT: I understood he was co-chairman. MRS. MORRIS: And I believe that his notes will reflect that he was co-chairman. THE COURT: I took it as co-chairman. MRS. MORRIS: You did? Well, I misunderstood. THE WITNESS: It is co-chairman. MRS. MORRIS: I'm sorry. THE COURT: Well, I don’t know Salter — never heard of him. MRS. MORRIS: Q. Oh, this business on June the 2nd having to do with the reading of a note about — somebody gave down at the fairground in jail. I think you testified that Mr. Evers said: don't get your child, because they want to stay there. Wasn't it a fact that he was reading from a note and this is what the note said? A. He had a note, I'm sure. This was on the night of June 2nd? Q. Yes. Hadn't he received a letter from 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (J. L. Black - Cross) 1472 . the compound referring to the temporary jail facilities, and the note read in part: please do not go for your child, for we are sure she will not come out? A. Yes. It said: please do not go for your child - but he started out by reading a letter from the compound, and he read, quote: "please do not go for your child, for we are sure she will not come out". Q. That's what he was reading from? A. From a note. Q. That's what I thought. This material that you brought back — it was passed out to everybody generally, wasn't it? A. Yes. MRS. MORRIS: I think I have nothing more. I think that is all. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TRAVIS: Q. Mr. Black, you were asked about this episode at Woolworth's — did you give the date on that? A. I don't recall right offhand. Q. Did you have any conversation with the manager of the store? A. Yes, sir, I did. Q. Were you present when there was conversation 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (J. L. Black - Redirect) 1473. with the manager of the store? A. I hunted up the manager of the store. Q. Why did you hunt the manager of the store? A. To ask him if he would ask us in so that we could break this up before some violence erupted, and that Chief Ray wanted to talk to him concerning this situation that was inside the store. Q. Now, you asked him to permit you to move all the people out? A. No, sir, I didn't. I asked him to see Chief Ray about moving them out. Q. All right. And were you present when he did see Chief Ray? A. Not when he talked with him, no. Q. Did he permit you to go into the store? A. He didn't ask me in or anything. Q. And you weren’t present when the conversation between the store manager and Captain Ray took place? A. No, sir. Q. I believe you testified that you broke up this Benny Oliver and Memphis Norman fight? A. Yes, sir. I was in the store under orders of Chief Ray to observe this crowd and this goings on, so that if any violence broke out or anything, to see how we could help. I went in and stood — in fact, I was standing right 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 behind the people who were sitting at the counter for a few minutes, and these students and several people kept coming on up on them, and I even ran them back behind the counter one time. I told them to knock off — stop their bantering and hollering or else I would ask them from the store, and I had no right to be in there because I hadn't been asked there. Q. You tried to get the people there to break off what they were doing? A. Yes, sir, I did. Q. And leave the people at the counter alone? A. And then I left and went back to report to Chief Ray that the matter was getting out of hand. Q. All right, then what did you do after that? A. I came back in the store, and he said: we can't act until we are requested to do so or asked to do so by the manager of the store. Q. Who were you talking to at this time? A. Chief Ray. Q. All right. A. And then he told me to go back in there and watch as best I could until they were invited in, until the rest of the police were invited in. Q. All right, and what did you do then? Did you (J. L. Black - Redirect) 1474. go back in? (J. L. Black - Redirect) 1475. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I did. I walked back in, but the crowd was — there was a large number of people there. I don't know how many were there, but I couldn't get through up to where they were. I could see that they had catsup and mustard and stuff like that on them, and I walked around to the end of the counter, and about that time, I saw the fellow that I recognized as being Benny Oliver come up and tap him on the shoulder and knock him off the stool, and this was the only male that was sitting at the counter. And as fast as I could get through the people, to them, I broke it up and arrested them both and got them out of there. floor? Q. Were they both struggling or fighting on the A. They were both down on the floor by the time I got up there. Q. All right, and what did you do at that point? A. I got to them and broke it up and arrested both of them and took them — Q. And you took them outside? A. Took them out of the store and turned them over to Chief Ray and Lieutenant Wilson, who put them in the car, and I turned around to go in, and about that time, a man whose name is on the arrest report, came by with Joan Trumpauer, he was leading her out the door. And I got ahold of him and her 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (J. L. Black - Redirect) 1476 and I took her name and address and all as the complainant, and arrested him for assault. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: What did you arrest Norman for? floor. THE COURT: Well, they were in a tangle and fighting on the THE WITNESS: Did you see what he was doing? THE COURT: At the time of fighting? THE WITNESS: At the time you arrested him, what was he doing? THE COURT: He was on the floor under Benny Oliver. THE WITNESS: Under Benny Oliver? THE COURT: Yes, sir. THE WITNESS: What was he doing? I don't know. It was just an entanglement of two men down there. THE COURT: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (J. L. Black - Redirect) 1477. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Did you see who started it? Yes, sir, I did. Who? Benny Oliver What was Norman doing? Sitting at the counter Did he make any resistance or fight back? None that I saw. As soon as I saw the initial blow, they both went down behind the people and I didn’t see anything from there until I got through the people to them, and they were down on the floor and there were just lots of people around. I couldn’t see them until I got back there through the crowd. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: And you arrested both of them? Yes, sir, — well, more or less to get them out of the store there before some more trouble started. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: (J. L. Black - Redirect) 1478 THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: What did you book Norman for? I think it was for disturbing the peace What was he doing disturbing the peace? Well, in this fight, causing all this — he was part of the cause of this crowd that was there. THE COURT: doing. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: I was trying to get you to tell me what he was Sitting at the counter there That was causing the disturbance? Well, he wasn't arrested for sitting at the counter there. He was arrested when the fighting started. Usually, it's a procedure of ours over there when there's a fight going on, is to take both parties involved in the fight, and then work it out when we get out from the scene, at the headquarters. MR. TRAVIS: Q. As a matter of fact, the City Court and City (J. L. Black - Redirect) 1479. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Judge, if you know — do you know what disposition was made in the City Court on Memphis Norman? A. I don't know what disposition was made, but I believe -- I was told that it was dropped. Q. That’s all right, if you don’t know. A . I don't know. MR. TRAVIS: I believe that's all. BY MRS. MORRIS: RECROSS-EXAMINATION Just a few more questions. Q. You said you arrested somebody who was taking Joan Trumpauer out? A. Yes, I did. Q. Did you arrest both of them? A. No. Q. Who did you arrest of those two? A. The one who had ahold of Joan Trumpauer. Q. And Joan Trumpauer had been sitting at the counter with the rest of the people? A. Yes. Q. Joan Trumpauer is white, isn’t she? A. She is. Q. Was the person who was taking her out white, too? 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. You arrested him, but didn't arrest her? A. Yes. Q. And you arrested both Benny Oliver and Memphis Norman? A. Yes. Q. And Memphis Norman was sitting at the counter until Benny Oliver knocked him on the floor and kicked him? A. Yes. MRS. MORRIS: I have no further questions. REREDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TRAVIS: Q. Now, this Joan Trumpauer or whoever she is — she wasn't fighting or anything, was she? A. No, she wasn't. Q. She was just being hauled — A. Bodily hauled from the store. Had she been entangled on the floor also, she probably would have gone, too. MR.TRAVIS: That is all I have. THE COURT: I'm going to have to take a recess. What is counsels situation on the 27th? MR. BELL: We have, Your Honor, I think a sufficient staff (J. L. Black — Recross) 1480.. so that whenever it is convenient to you to start again, we 1 2 3 4 5 0 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1481 . will have our plaintiffs representative here. At your earliest convenience would be satisfactory to us. THE COURT: Well, I will be in Biloxi. I’ve got two weeks set down there, and I didn’t plan to hold that session. I was going to get Judge Allen Cox of the Northern District to hold it, and he got in an automobile accident and he and his wife got hurt, so I had sixty-two jurors coming down there and I've just got to go and hold it, and counsel from several states down there. I’ll be down there two weeks and it would be most convenient with me -- it would be more convenient with me to presume on the 27th, but if there is any reason why some other date has to be set, I'll see what your situation is . MR. BELL: MR. WATKINS: We have no objection to that date The 27th. We will make ourselves available THE COURT: That's on Thursday at nine o'clock on the 27th. I think we ought to wind up in at least a couple of days. I'm not asking you to take that much time. MR. BELL: If I might have permission, Your Honor, if 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1482 . it’s not too much in violation of the rules of the Court, I would like to withdraw the plaintiff's exhibits for identifi cation concerning these clippings. I think that if I could take them with me, I could get copies of the ones which are not copies, so that the exhibits would all be uniform, and perhaps I could get copies made so that counsel for the other side would be able to have a set which I wasn't able to pro vide at the trial. > THE COURT: Well, that would have been better, but since they're here, I don't believe I would let the Court record get away. They can come up here and look at them. I don't believe I would like for them to be removed because they are a part of the Court record now. MR. BELL: That's all right. THE COURT: All right, we'll take a recess insofar as this proceeding is concerned until nine o'clock on February 27th, 1964. About how many witnesses does the City contemplate using? MR. WATKINS: Your Honor, right now I would estimate ten or twelve. The reason I say probably, is that in view of the evidence that has been offered here today, we will not use 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1483 . some that are on our list, and we will have to substitute others for them. THE COURT: I'm trying to tell you what courtroom we'll be in. We'll resume this case in courtroom No. 2 upstairs, because I’ve got witness accommodations for small crowds, and if the audience overflows that room up there, they're just going to have to stay out, because I'm not going to allow anybody other than lawyers and litigants to sit inside the rail. We're just not going to take care of anybody who can't find a seat in the audience, because it's just not satisfac tory trying to function down here. The acoustics are so bad and we have to ask people to repeat too much, so I think it's a lot more important that the Court function where it can do so more efficiently, so we'll resume in courtroom No. 2 at nine o'clock on Thursday, February 27th. (The proceedings recessed until Thursday, February 27th, at nine o'clock A.M.) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1484 (Court resumed in this case on Thursday morning, February 27, 1964, at 9 A.M., and the proceedings were as follows: THE COURT: All right, who will you have, Mr. Travis? MR. TRAVIS: At this point, Your Honor, we would like to introduce abstracts of the court records of the various witnesses who have testified on behalf of the plaintiff in this matter. I would like first to introduce the abstract of the court record of Plaintiff’s witness, Frankie Mae Adams for arrest on May 3lst, 1963, when she was charged with parading without a permit and this abstract shows that the County Court entered a directed verdict for the plaintiff in that case. We would like to offer that as Defendants’ Exhibit No . 20 . THE COURT: All right, let it be marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-20.) MR. TRAVIS: We would like to offer as Defendants’ Exhibit No. 21 an abstract of the Circuit Clerk of Hinds County in regard to Frankie Mae Adams’ arrest on June the 13th for parading without a permit which shows that her appeal in this matter to the County Court, First Judicial District, is still pending. THE COURT 1 2 3 4 5 8 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1485 . All right, that may be admitted into evidence and properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-21.) MR. TRAVIS: As Defendants’ Exhibit No. 22, we would like to offer the certificate of the Circuit Clerk relative to the County Court records on Plaintiff’s witness, Frankie Mae Adams, regard ing her arrest on July 24th for parading without a permit which shows that this matter is on appeal for jury trial in County Court on June 15th. That is Defendants’ Exhibit No. 22. THE COURT: That abstract may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-22.) MR. TRAVIS: The certificate of the Chief Clerk of the Police Court of the City of Jackson relative to the judgment of Plain tiff’s witness, Doris Allison, in which she was charged with obstructing the sidewalk on May 29th, which shows that this charge against her was dismissed by Municipal Court of the City of Jackson; that will be Exhibit No. 23, Defendants’ Exhibit 23. THE COURT: All right, that certificate may be admitted in evi dence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-23.) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1486 MR, TRAVIS: As Defendants’ Exhibit No. 24, we would like to offer the abstract of the court records of the County Court of Hinds County of Plaintiff’s witness, Jimmie Lee Bell, for the charge of parading without a permit on June 3, 1963, which shows that the County Court sustained defendant’s motion for a direct verdict on September 18, 1963. THE COURT: What is the purpose of admitting those documents, Mr. Travis? MR. TRAVIS: Well, Your Honor, of course, these witnesses testifiec relative to these various arrests. These are abstracts of records of witnesses, — of the court records of the witnesses who testified before you on behalf of the Plaintiff in this matter. THE COURT: They testified at variance with these abstracts? MR. TRAVIS: As you will recall, you told us at that time that the best manner in which to bring out this proof was by the court records or abstracts. They didn’t know what the situation was. THE COURT: All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-24.) MR. TRAVIS: The abstract on Plaintiff’s witness, Doris Ruth Bracey relative to a charge by the City of Jackson of obstructin' a public sidewalk on May 30th, 1963, which shows that she entered a nolo contendere plea in County Court and paid a $250.00 fine on September 30th, 1963. _______________________________________________________________________ 1487 . THE COURT: All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-25.) MR. TRAVIS: The judgment of the City Court under the certificate of the Chief Clerk of the Police Court with regards to the charge of obstructing the sidewalk, public sidewalk, against Plaintiffs’ witness, Doris Ruth Bracey, on May 28, 1963, would show that that was dismissed, that that charge was dismissed by Municipal Court. THE COURT : All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-26.) MR. TRAVIS: Also, with regard to Doris Ruth Bracey, is the chargr of parading without a permit on June 12, 1963, which shows that 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1488 . on September 24th she filed an appeal bond to the Circuit Court she had been tried by and convicted. MR. BELL: Are we up to number 27, if you will excuse me please? MR. TRAVIS: Yes . THE COURT: All right, that certified abstract may be admitted in evidence and properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-27.) MR. TRAVIS: The certified abstract of the City of Jackson vs. Benjamin Brown, a Plaintiffst witness in this matter, with regard to parading without a permit on June 4, 1963, which shows that there was a jury verdict of ’’Not Guilty” and the defendant was dismissed. MRS. MORRIS: Mr. Travis, I don’t believe any Benjamin Brown testified in this case according to the list of witnesses here. MR. TRAVIS: All right, we will withdraw this and I’ll check it. May I withdraw the last one that we mentioned, Your Honor, Benjamin Brown, and move to introduce the certified abstract of Plaintiffs’ witness, Evelyn Carter, for — she was charged for parading without a permit on June 7, 1963. It 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1489 . shows that the charge against her was dismissed upon payment of costs on October 15th in County Court. MRS. MORRIS: We didn’t have any Evelyn Carter testify either. MR. TRAVIS: May I withdraw that one likewise and we will check it. THE COURT: All right. MR. TRAVIS: I would like to introduce the certified abstract in regard to the Plaintiffs’ witness, Bennie Lee Catchings, who was charged on June 4th with breach of the peace in the City of Jackson. This abstract reflects that on October 16th she entered a plea of nolo contendere in the County Court and was sentenced to a $200.00 fine and four months in jail; said jail term being suspended upon payment of costs and that on October the 22nd, 1963, the defendant, Bennie Lee Catchings, paid said fine and costs in full. THE COURT: All right, that certified abstract may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit D-28.) MR. TRAVIS: Certified abstract in regards to Plaintiffs’ witness, Mattie Bivins jDennis, who was charged with obstructing the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1490 . sidewalk on May 29, 1963, which shows that that charge was dis missed by the Municipal Court of the City of Jackson on the 7th day of June, 1963. THE COURT: All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-29.) MR. TRAVIS: Thresa Mae Easley; abstract with regards to parading without a permit on December 6th, -- certified abstract. We would like to offer that as an exhibit. It is under the certi ficate of the Chief Clerk of the Police Court. MR. BELL: The only objection that we would make on this is,— well, we would have no objection if the record were to show that while the parading without a permit charge was dismissed, the defendant here was also charged with obstructing the sidewalk and that charge, so far as we know, was not dismissed and I think she was tried and found guilty of this -- in this situatio MR. TRAVIS: I think you are talking about another — MR. BELL: This was No, I think this the housewives who is the December 6th were picketing down situation. on Capitol Str ee THE COURT 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 91. I’ll overrule the objection and let that be admitted in evidence and if there is some other or additional certificate to be obtained you may obtain it and present it. MR. TRAVIS: We’ll check the records on that -- that shows that that charge was dismissed. Then we have two abstracts in regard to Plaintiffs’ witness, Doris Annette Erskine. The first when she was charged with parading, -- unlawful trespass on May 29th, which shows and reflects that this case is set for jury trial in County Court on June 1st, THE COURT: That certified abstract may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-31.) MR. TRAVIS: The second one in regard to Doris Annette Erskine when she was charged with breach of the peace on May 30th, reflecting that this case also was set for jury trial on June 1st. THE COURT: All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-32.) MR. TRAVIS: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Certified abstract in regard to Plaintiffs’ witness, Ralph Edwin King, Jr., charged with disturbing the peace on June 13th, 1963, which shows that the Court entered a judgment of ’’Guilty” and sentenced him to pay a fine of $100.00 on the 17th of June. THE COURT: All right, it may be admitted and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-33.) MR. TRAVIS: Abstract under certificate of the Chief Clerk of the Police Court relative to the affidavit of Ralph Edwin King, Jr. which reflects that the sentence of $100.00 fine, that he paid this $100.00 fine on June 17th after entering a plea of "guilty” and the certificate certifies further that statutory forty days in which to appeal expired without the defendant taking appeal. THE COURT : All right, that certified abstract may be admitted and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-34.) MR. TRAVIS: Certified abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness, Ralph Edwin King, Jr., who was charged with breach of the peace on May 30th, 1963, which reflects that this case is on appeal in the County Court and set for jury trial on July 7, 1964. THE COURTS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1493 , That certified abstract may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D~35.) MR, TRAVIS: Certified abstract of the Chief Clerk of the Police Court of the City of Jackson relative to Plaintiffs1 witness, Willie Ben Ludden, Jr., who was charged with obstructing the sidewalk on May 29, 1963, reflects that he entered a plea of "Not Guilty" and that the charge against him was dismissed by the Municipal Court of the City of Jackson on the 7th day of Jun 1963 c THE COURT: All right, that certified abstract may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D—36.) MR. TRAVIS: Certified abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness, Willie Ben Ludden, Jr., in regards to a charge for parading without a permit on May 3lst, 1963, which reflects that this matter is on appeal to County Court of the First Judicial District of Hinds County, Mississippi, and set for jury trial on March 24, 1964, THE COURT: That may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-37) MR, TRAVIS i Certified abstract of judgment with regard to Plain tiffs’ witness, Memphis Norman, who was charged with disturbing the peace on May 28, 1963, which reflects that that charge was nolprossed on May 3lst, and dismissed. By way of explanation in regard to this next offer, Your Honor, this was the -- Memphis Norman was the one who testified, the witness who testified relative to certain happen ings at Woolworth’s Store here in the City of Jackson on May 28, and at this point we would like to introduce the judgment - THE COURT: Let me act on the other offer. Admit that in evi dence and let it be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-38.) MR. TRAVIS: That was by way of explanation in regard to this certified abstract of judgment in regard to Benney G. Oliver, who, the person who it was stated by Memphis Norman had assaulted him on that occasion. This judgment reflects that he was found guilty, after entering a not guilty plea, he was found guilty and sentenced to pay a $100.00 fine and thirty days in jail. All right, that certified copy of that judgment may t 1494 . THE COURT: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1495 , admitted in evidence and be properly marked, (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-39.) MR. TRAVIS: Certificate relative to Helen Jean O’Neal on a charge of September 4, 1961, which reflects that she was released with out bond and the charges were dismissed against her by the Court. THE COURT: That certificate may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-40.) MR. TRAVIS: Certified Abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness, Helen Jean O’Neal when she was charged with obstructing a public sidewalk or street on June 7, 1963, which reflects that the matter is on appeal in the County Court set for jury trial on March 2, 1964. THE COURT: All right, that may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-41.) MR. TRAVIS: Certified abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness, Will Levi Palmer with regard to the charge of parading without a permit on May 3lst, which reflects that this is on appeal alsc and set for jury trial. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1496 THE COURT: All right, that certified abstract may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-42 ) MR. TRAVIS: Certified abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness, Will Lewis Palmer, Jr. with regard to his parading without a per mit on June 12, which shows that this charge likewise has been appealed and has been set for jury trial on March 9. THE COURT: How many more have you got here? MR . TRAVIS: I have about half a dozen, Your Honor, I’m sorry. THE COURT: That is all right. I was just going to suggest to put them all in at one time. I don’t see much point in putting them in separately. That may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-43.) MR . TRAVIS: Certified abstract relative to Plaintiffs’ witness, Will Lewis Palmer, Jr., in regard to the charge of parading without a permit on June 14, 1963, which reflects that this charge is also set for trial on March 9, 1964. The last three that we have offered, although the names vary on the certificate 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1497. of the abstract, all are the same person. THE COURT: You mean the same person with different names? MR. TRAVIS: The same individual, Your Honor, it is the same per son, but he used a different name when he was booked by the police. THE COURT: All right, this abstract may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-44.) MR. TRAVIS: Certified abstract in regard to Plaintiffs’ witness, Betty Ann Poole, who was charged with parading without a permit on May 31st, 1963, which relfects that on September 16th she entered a plea of nolo contendere in County Court and was sen tenced to a $100.00 fine and 30 days in jail. The jail term was suspended upon payment of costs. On September 25th the defendan Betty Ann Poole paid said fine and costs in full. THE COURT : All right, that abstract may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-45.) MR. TRAVIS: Certified abstract relative to a charge of parading 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1498 , without a permit on June 12, 1963, Plaintiffs’ witness, Robert L. T. Smith, which reflects that he was released on bond on that date and that the charge against him was dismissed by the Court, that’s the Municipal Court. THE COURT: All right, that certificate may be admitted in evi dence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-46.) MR. TRAVIS: Certified abstract of the judgment of Plaintiffs’ witness, Eddie Jean Thomas, charged with obstructing a public sidewalk on May 28, 1963, which reflects she entered a plea of ”Not Guilty” and the charge against her was dismissed in Munici pal Court on June 7th, 1963. THE COURT: That abstract may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-47.) MR. TRAVIS: Certified copy of the abstract of the record on Eddie Jean Thomas, Plaintiffs’ witness, in regard to the charge of breach of peace on May 30, 1963, which reflects that this matter has been appealed and set for jury trial in County Court April 27, 1964. THE COURT: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1499 . All right, the abstract may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-48.) MR. TRAVIS: Certified copy of the abstract, Eddie Jean Thomas, Plaintiffs’ witness, regarding the charge of unlawfully parading without a permit on June 12, 1963, which reflects that that matter has been appealed to the County Court and set for jury trial April 27, 1964. THE COURT: That abstract may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-49.) MR. TRAVIS: And, finally, Your Honor, we would like to introduce the certified abstract in regard to the charge of unlawfully obstructing the public sidewalk; the charge is against Plain tiffs’ witness, Hezekiah Watkins. This charge was on June 7th, 1963, which reflects that in County Court after an appeal has been taken, the case came up for trial and he entered a plea of nolo contendere; said charge was sentenced to pay a fine of $500.00 and six months in jail, with said jail term being sus pended upon payment of costs. This was on September the 17th. On September the 30th, 1963, the defendant, Hezekiah Watkins, paid said costs and fine in full. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1500 . THE COURT: All right, that certified abstract may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-50.) MR . WATKINS: May it please the Court, the Defendants would like to now offer in evidence what has heretofore been marked Defendants’ Exhibit 4, for identification, which is a pamphlet which we say has been identified for the record already by witnesses Charles Evers, Reverend Edwin King, Betty Poole, and other Plaintiffs’ witnesses as pamphlets, — one of the pamphlets used in connec tion with the boycott, which was sponsored by the NAACP and others of these plaintiffs as a part of the demonstrations in volved in this lawsuit. THE COURT: All right, that may be admitted in evidence and be marked. MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, will you note my objection. I don’t see any relevancy in this at all. THE COURT: What was that? MRS. MORRIS: I don’t see the relevance in this particular exhibit at all. Defendants have not put in any permanent defenses, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1501 . they have merely entered a denial. THE COURT: I will overrule the objection. Let it be marked with the same corresponding number. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-4.) MR. WATKINS: Now, I offer in evidence what has been marked as Defendants’ Exhibit 5 for identification, which is a similar pamphlet, similarly identified by Plaintiffs’ witnesses hereto fore in this record. THE COURT: All right, let it be entered in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-5.) MR. WATKINS: Your Honor, Defendants’ Exhibits 6, 7, 10 and 3 are similar in nature, having been identified by the Plaintiffs’ witnesses. The only possible difference is Exhibit 7 which does bear on the same subject, but the witness Evers did make the statement that the National Organization did not approve of the issuance of that pamphlet by the Local Organization. That is the only difference in those Exhibits. MR. BELL: We make the same objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1502 • All right, I, of course, don’t have this clearly enough in mind to make any evaluation at this time, but I’ll admit it in evidence and study it in connection with my notes. It may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibits as D-6, D-7, D-10, and D-3.) MR. BELL: Mr. Watkins, would you read over again the various Exhibits that you are offering at this time? THE COURT : As I understand it, these were Exhibits that had been previously offered for identification. All right, give him a list of them please. MR. WATKINS: Number 4, number 5, number 6, number 7, number 10, and number 3. MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, let the record show also that, to the best of my recollection, 4 and 5 were never identified by any of the witnesses. They said they may have seen something similar to them. MR. WATKINS: Your Honor, it is my recollection that some witnesses said that, but that others did identify each one of those. At least one witness identified each one of them. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1503 . THE COURT: That’s my recollection; that both of you are correct, that some of them didn’t identify them and some of them did, and I will overrule the objection. It may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. MR. WATKINS: Now, if it please the Court, Defendants would like to offer in evidence the deposition of the Plaintiff, Reverend Ralph Edwin King, taken on September 20, 1963, together with additional answers filed by him under date of January 29, 1964, in connection with the same deposition.. MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, we would object to that. Reverend King is available as a witness. There is no showing that he is un-of available and the purpose/depositions or answers to interroga tories in accordance with the rules is that they may be used for the purpose of cross examination — MR. WATKINS: Your Honor, may I be heard on that? THE COURT: Yes. MR. WATKINS: Your Honor, Reverend King has been on the stand and has been cross examined, but I am introducing this under Rule 26(d)(2), which provides that the deposition of a party , and he 1504 . is a party, may be used by adverse party for any purpose. THE COURT: I’ll overrule the objection. MR. WATKINS: Now, there are two separate documents, Your Honor, well they both bear the same Exhibit number. THE COURT: Let me see that. What would be the next number? THE CLERK: The next number will be 51. THE COURT: All right, this deposition -oi fleverend King may be admitted in evidence and be marked Defendants’ Exhibit 51 and the answers of Reverend King to these interrogatories, one hundred and eleven in number, may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibits as D-51 and D-52.) MR. NICHOLS: We would like to call John Ray. THE COURT: Who did you say? MR. NICHOLS: I beg your pardon, Your Honor, we would like to call as a witness John L. Ray. (J. L. Ray, Dir.) 1505. THE COURT: All right, John Ray? MR. NICHOLS: I believe his name is John L. Ray, Your Honor. MR. JOHN L. RAY being called as a witness by the plaintiff and after first having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION MR. NICHOLS: Q. Would you give your name and age and address to the Court Reporter? A. J, L. Ray, 44, address, 222 Calhoun Street, City of Jackson. Q. Now, Mr. Ray, by whom are you employed? A. The City of Jackson, Police Department, Q. How long have you been with the Police Department in the City of Jackson? A. A little better than twenty-two years. Q. Do you presently hold any rank with the Police Department? A. Ido. Q. What is that? A. Deputy Chief of Police. Q. Did you hold that rank during the period from May 15, 1963, through the balance of, or rather through the J . L. Ray, Dir 1506 date of today? A. I did. Q. Are you familiar with the streets of Jackson, Mississippi? A . Iam. Q. Do you know whether there is a street named Farish Street? A . Yes sir . Q. Are you familiar with that street? A . I am. Q. Is there a street names Livingston Road? A . Yes sir . Q. And is there one named Ridgeway? A . Yes sir. Q. Are you familiar with those? A . I am. Q. Is there a street called Pascagoula Street? A . Yes sir . Q. Are you familiar with that street? A . I am . Q. Are there streets called Rose Street and Deer Park, Street in the City? A . Correct. Q. Are you familiar with those streets? A . I am. J . L. Ray, Dir 1507 . Q. Is there a street called Dalton Street in the City of Jackson? A . Yes sir. Q. Are you familiar with that? A. I am. Q. Were you on duty on May 31, 1963? A . I wa s . Q. Now, at that time when you were on duty were you dressed in your police uniform? A . I wa s . Q. Now, do you know of a church called Farish Street Baptist Church here in the City of Jackson? A . I do . Q. Tell the Court where that church is located, if you would? A. It is located at the intersection of Farish and Church Street on the southwest corner. Q. Now, briefly describe the street known as Farish Street? A. Farish Street is, I would say, in the center of the City of Jackson. It’s a narrow street, runs north and south. It is about twenty-five feet in width, has sidewalks on each side, and North Farish starts at Capitol Street; South Farish / is on the other side of Capitol Street. That’s the 100 block. Q. Where is the Baptist Church located in relation to J . L. Ray, D i r . 1508. Capitol Street? A. It is about six blocks, I believe it is seven blocks from Capitol Street on Farish. Q. Now, Capitol Street, does it intersect Farish Street? A . It does. Q. Capitol Street would run which way? A . Ea st and west. Q. Now, did you have occasion to be in the neighborhood of the Farish Street Baptist Church on May 31, 1963? A. I did. Q. Now, what, if anything, happened at that place while you were there? A. They had quite a gathering at the Farish Street Baptist Church. In fact of the business, it was an overflow crowd. At about 4:30 P.M. they began to flock out of the Church; they blocked Farish Street and Church Street and they got in a formation and started marching south on Farish Street toward Capitol Street. I had a detail of police officers at the intersection of Hamilton and Farish; that is at the beginning of the 400 block. When they started their march, we formed a skirmish line across Farish Street from sidewalk to sidewalk. They were marching toward us chanting, singing, carrying small American flags and placards. Q. Now, pause there and let me ask you this question, to describe the formation you referred to that the people J . L. Ray, Dir 1509 . were in? A. Well, there was a group of about twenty marching in columns of twos on the sidewalk. Immediately following those, they were in columns of six or eight, completely taking up the west sidewalk and more than half of Farish Street used by vehicular traffic. Q. Now, Farish Street at that point; describe whether or not it has, -- you mentioned the sidewalk, does dt have ewalks on both sides of the street or one? A. It do es have sidewalk s on both sides of the street. Q. At that point , — you mentioned Fari sh Street lier of b<;ing twenty-five feet in width, is that the approximate width of the street at that point? A. Approximately, yes. Q. Now, are there any buildings along the way at that point on Farish Street? A. Yes sir, itTs buildings. Q. Commercial establishments? A . That *s right. Q. All right, sir, you mentioned a group of people walking on the sidewalk and you gave a total. Now, you men tioned other people following them in columns of sixes. Would you make an estimation of the crowd at that time? A. About four hundred. Q. Four hundred people? J. L. Ray, Dir. 1510 A. Q. skirmi sh A. Q. A. Q. south of A. Q. A. Q. Yes sir. Now, you pulled your police officers up in a line, is that correct? That is correct. Now, which way was this crowd moving? They were moving south on Farish Street. Did you set your line up north of that crowd or that crowd? I was south of the crowd. In other words, they were marching toward you? That is correct . All right, go on with your story at that point, plea se . A. As they approached this skirmish line that we had set up across Farish Street at Hamilton Street, using a port able loud speaker I inquired if any of the group had a permit to parade. They ignored my order and continued moving toward this skirmish line. I asked that the second or third time and by that time they had reached the skirmish line and the leader of the group pushed into the police officers, and he was hold ing his night stick in an outward position. Q. Who was holding the night stick? A. Lieutenant Wilson. Q. The police officer was holding the night stick? A. That is correct. J. L. Ray, Dir. 1511. Q. All right, sir. A. And the leader of that group moved into this night stick and he continued to hold it, and he ignored my order as to whether or not he had a permit. Then I told those who would disperse and move on peacefully they would be allowed to do so. I gave that order two or three times, using this port able loud speaker . Q. At that point, you asked if they had a permit to parade, and did anyone answer you? A . They did not. Q. Did the formation stop? A. It had to stop, yes. Q. It stopped at the skirmish line? A . That*s right. Q. Now, at that point you told them to disperse, is that correct? A. I told those who would disperse and move on peace fully that they would be allowed to do so; that those who remained would be arrested and charged with parading without a permit, and I would estimate that about eighty-five of them did disperse and the rest were placed under arrest. The leader of this group seemed to be very persistent; he was trying his best to get through that line. Q.. Do you know who the leader was? A. I do J . L . Ray, Dir 1512. Q. Do you know his name? A. Ido. Q. Did you know him by sight at that time by that name? A. I did. Q. And, what was his name? A. Willie Ludden. Q. Did you arrest people on that date? A. I did. Q. And at that place? A. I did. Q. Do you have any total of the number of the people you arrest ed? A. Three hundred and twenty-two. Q. Were all of them adults? A . No sir . Q. Do you have any breakdown on the figures as to adults and juveniles? A. Seventy-eight of the three hundred and twenty-two were adults, the rest were juveniles. MRS. MORRIS: I would like for the record to show what the wit ness is reading from. MR. NICHOLS: Q. Letts clear up the record, from what are you read ing, Captain Ray? J . L. Ray, Dir. 1513 . A. Just some personal notes I made. Q. What was the occasion of you making those notes? A. You told me to refresh my memory, and I made these not es. Q. And how did you refresh your memory? A. By the official reports made at the time of the arrest s. Q. Now, by a matter of subtraction there, the total that you gave me of three hundred and twenty-two, total arrested; seventy-eight adults, that would leave approximately a total of two hundred and thirty-four juveniles, if my addi tion is correct, is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. All right, as concerns Willie Ludden, you stated that he was the party who walked into the night stick being held by Lieutenant Wilson, is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. At that point, did you notice Willie Ludden when he was arrested, if he was arrested? A. After he was arrested, he was passed on through the line. I did not see him after that. Q. In other words, you lost visual contact with Ludden after he was arrested, is that correct? A. That is correct. I was concerned with these others. Q. Up to that time did you see any force used by a J . L. Ray, Dir 1514. police officer on Willie Ludden? A . I did not. Q. Now, after you had placed these people under arrest, what next happened at this location? A. After they were placed under arrest and we started to loading them into the transportation that we had. They begaft to jump up and down and shout and chant and they stam peded, defying our orders. They went into Hobson*s Alley and we had enough police officers to block the alley off and we kept them there in Hobson*s Alley until we transported them to jail. Q. You mean after you arrested these people, placed them under arrest, they stampeded? A . Yes sir. Q. Did they give you an explanation of that? A. They were in the street there on Farish Street and on the sidewalk; had the street blocked and the sidewalk blocked. After we started loading them, after we loaded the first two trucks, then they stampeded; they got to shouting and chanting. One of the group said "follow me" and they ran from us, I mean they j-ust wouldn*t stand there. Q. Were they attempting to get away from you? A. They were resisting correction. Q. Now, Chief Ray, were these people transported to a jail? J . L . Ray, Dir 1515. A . They were . Q. How were they transported? A. We used trucks that were furnished by the City Engineering Department, Water Department, and Sanitation Department. Q. All right, sir, what type of vehicles were furnished you by the Sanitation Department? A. Garbage trucks. Q. Now, did you have occasion to make a visual inspec tion of those trucks? A. I did. Q.. Was that prior to the loading of the prisoners or after the loading? A. Prior to the loading of prisoners. Q. Would you state to the Court the condition of those trucks at the time you saw them? A. They were new trucks. Q. 1*11 ask you this question, was there any evidence that they had been used for the hauling of garbage at that time, prior to that time? MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, I would object to the form of these questions. He has been leading the witness for some time now. THE COURT: Yes, 1*11 sustain the objection J . L. Ray, Dir 1516 . MR. NICHOLS: Q. What, if anything, did your inspection of this truck reflect? A. They were new trucks, never been used. Q. And, Captain Ray, you stated that the prisoners were taken away. Do you know of your own knowledge where they were taken? A. I do . Q. All right, sir, where were they taken? A. At the temporary jail facility located at the fair ground. Q. All right, sir. You stated you knew, the location of Livingston Road and Ridgeway Street in the City of Jackson, is that correct? A. Yes sir. Q. Would you describe these streets briefly, please? A. Livingston Road is a blacktopped street. It begins at Woodrow Wilson and extends north to Northside Drive, which is approximately two miles. Ridgeway Street is about half way, V 'i intersects about half way between Woodrow Wilson, and Nort-h..sid« Drive or about a mile from Woodrow Wilson. Itts about twenty- five to thirty feet in width, and Ridgeway Street runs north and south. Itts an offset there at Livingston Road in Ridge way Street and itts about the same width. Q_. Are there any sidewalks on either one of these streets? J . L . Ray, D i r . 1517 . A. No sir, there*s no sidewalks, there is a gravel por tion on each side that is used by pedestrian traffic. Q. Did you have occasion to be on Livingston Road on May 31, 1963? A. I did. Q. And, what, if anything, occurred while you were out there on that day? A. I was dispatched by police radio that a group of people were marching south on Livingston Road. They were carrying placards and singing and chanting, causing quite a disturbance and blocking vehicular traffic, so I proceeded to the intersection of Ridgeway and Livingston Road; told the radio operator to send a detail of men to meet me there. . When I arrived, this parade was about a half a block from that intersection. They were in columns of six, some on the gravel portion, others taking up about half of Livingston Road. Using this portable loud speaker, I inquired if any of those had a permit. They indicated that they did not. After giving that order the second or third time, I then told who would those/disperse and move on peacefully, that they would be allowed to do so. I estimate that about thirty to thirty-five did disperse and move on across the railroad track. Those who remained were placed under arrest for parading without a permit. Q. What type of street is Livingston Road at that point, is it two-way traffic! or does it have four lanes, or what? J . L. Ray, Dir 1518 A. Two-way traffic. Q. One lane for each direction? A . Correct . Q. At the time you arrived and observed the situation, you describe, was vehicular traffic impeded in any manner on — MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, I object to the form of these questions. THE COURT: I sustain the objection. MR. NICHOLS: Q. Do you have any record of the number of parties you arrested on that date? THE COURT: You may tell the effect, if any, it had on traffic. You can describe the situation. He is very articulate, go ahead. THE WITNESS: A. Yes sir, it did impede the flow of traffic; directly behind this group of paraders was a school bus. It was traveling south. There was a Mississippi Power & Light truck traveling north. Both had to stop. The school bus was fol lowing slowly behind the group and after they were stopped there at Ridgeway and Livingston Road, I inquired of the driver if he was part of the parade. He said, no he was just trying to get by. We made arrangements for him to turn to the J . L Ray, Dir 1519 . east on Ridgeway Street and let him get on by. Q. Do you have any record as to the number of parties arrested that day? A. Yes, I do. Q. How many people were arrested? A. Ninety-four. Q. Do you have any record as to a breakdown between adults and juveniles arrested on that day? A. Out of the ninety-four, sixteen were adults. Q. When you subtract that, that leaves seventy-eight juveniles, does it not? A. That’s correct, sir. Q. Now these parties, after they were arrested were, — what next did you do, if anything? A. After they were arrested, they were loaded into transportation that had been furnished and transported to the temporary jail facility at the fair grounds. Q. Was there, -- what force, if any, was used on the arrest of these parties? MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, I object to the form of these questions THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: A. No force was used. They all got into the wagon J . L. Ray, Dir 1520 . themselves. Q. They obeyed your command? A. They did, yes sir. Q,. Now, you said that you were familiar with Pascagoula Street in the City of Jacksop? A. Tes, I am. Q. Would you briefly describe that street, please? A. Pascagoula Street intersects with Poindexter Street. Pascagoula Street is a very narrow street. It has pavement, I would say, of about fifteen feet wide. It has a portion on either side which is gravel that is used as a sidewalk. It runs east and west.. Pnindexter Street is about twenty feet wide and it runs north and south and it has a sidewalk on one side of the street. Thatts on the east side of the street. Q. Now, Chief Ray, were you on duty on June 1, 1963? *. • A . I was. Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform? A . I wa s . Q. Did you have occasion to be in the vicinity of Pascagoula and Poindexter Streets in the City of Jackson on that day? A. I did. Q̂. Would you describe what, if anything, occurred while you were there? A. Yes sir, we had received information that a group was J . L. Ray, Dir 1521. going to parade. I received this by police radio. I went to the intersection of Lynch and Terry Road and had a detail of police officers with me, so this group did form coming out of the Masonic Temple which is located on Lynch Street and they started marching east on Lynch street. When they reached the intersection of Poindexter Street, they could see the police detail at Terry Road and Lynch, so they turned — MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, we object to that and ask that it be stricken. As to what who could see, the witness has no know ledge of that THE COURT: I’ll overrule the objection. THE WITNESS: A. They turned then north on Poindexter Street and I was informed by police radio that they had turned back east on Pascagoula Street. So we left this intersection of Lynch and Terry Road and went to Minerva and came across a walk there that is built for pedestrians; came in behind this group of marchers, they were at that time on Pascagoula Street. Pascagoula Street dead ends -down there and when they saw us approaching them, they did a to-the-rear march, started marching back west on Pascagoula. Using this portable loud speaker, I said, "This is a police order, stop," so they did stop. Then I inquired if any of them J . L. Ray, Dir 1522 . had a permit to parade and all in unison, they shouted nNo I then told those who would disperse and move on peacefully that they would be allowed to do so. I guess about fifteen, maybe, did disperse and those who remained in formation, com pletely blocking the street, there was no room for any traffic to move at all, they were placed under arrest for parading without a permit. Q. Now, describe that formation for me, please. A. Well, they were in a column of about five and they were marching, as I have already described, first they were marching east on -- Q. I understand where they were marching, but at the point that you stopped them, the point I am talking about, just tell me how they were marching right prior to your stopping them. A. They were marching in columns of five and they were marching west and completely taking up the paved portion of Pascagoula Street. Q. Now, do you have any record with you to indicate how many parties were arrested at that time? A. Ninety-two arrested. Q. Do you have any record that would indicate how many adults and how many juveniles were in the group? A. Of this ninety-two, thirteen were adults. Q. By subtraction, that would leave seventy-nine J . L . Ray, Dir 1523 juveniles, is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. Now, after you arrested the parties, placed them under arrest what, if anything, did you do next? A. Using the transportation that was furnished, they were transported to the temporary jail facility at the fair ground. Q. Chief Ray, you testified that you were familiar with the streets in the City of Jackson known as Rose Street and Deer Park Street, is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. Are these streets anywhere near each other? A. They intersect. Q. -I see. -Would you describe those streets, — the location of that intersection? A. Rose Street is a very narrow street. It begins at Capitol Street, — West Capitol Street and extends from West Capitol Street south to Lynch Street, and I would say it is about twenty feet in width. Deer Park Street is an even, — Q. Did you say that Rose Street has sidewalks or not? A. It does have sidewalks. Q. Does it have them on both sides, or one side or — A. It has sidewalks on both sides. Deer Park Street is also very narrow. It is a paved street and east of Rose Street Deer Park Street does not have sidewalks; west of Rose J . L. Ray, Dir 1524 . Street it north and Q. A. Q. A. Q. and Deer does have sidewalks. It south. I see. Now, were you on I was. Were you dressed in your I was. Did you have occasion to Park Streets on that date? runs east and west and Rose duty on June 13, 1963? police uniform? be in the vicinity of Rose A. I did. Q. What, if anything, occurred when you were at that location at that time? A. Mr. Nichols, 1*11 have to start back a little before I arrived at that intersection. At the Farish Street Baptist Church there was quite a number of out of town photographers and newspaper men. They were gathered in front of this church and it was pretty evident that something unusual was going to happen because of the number of newspaper men and photographers, So I observed from the intersection of Minerva and Pearl Street, •They were at the Pearl Street AME Methodist Church, which is located on Pearl Street just east of Rose Street. Shortly after noon they flocked out of this church, getting into Pearl Street and they started marching east on Pearl Street and I was informed that they had turned onto Rose Street, — north on Rose Street. I dispatched for a detail of men to meet me at the intersection of Rose and Deer Park Street. J . L. Ray, Dir 1525. When I arrived there the beginning of this parade was about at Banks Street, which is a very short block away from Rose and Deer Park Street. They were in columns of threes marching right down the center of Rose Street, making it impossible for traffic to use Rose Street at all. There was a group that followed this parade using the sidewalks; had ganged up on the -parches -of these houses along Rose Street. When this parade reached the intersection of Rose and Deer Park, we had formed a skirmish line across Rose Street and using this portable loud speaker, I went through the same pro cedure that I have already described on these other parades and, over on the porch at 608 Rose Street, the porch was just packed, just full of people; they were singing, shouting, hollering and chanting and after we made the arrests all of that group had flags. They were encouraging the group out in the street to defy law and order by telling them to hold onto the flags, donit give up the flags and they did hold to the flags, but that was the only way that they did resist. We had no trouble at all with the paraders; after we got the flags they obeyed the orders, but our trouble there was on the porch of 608 Rose Street. That group was very disorderly; they were shouting remarks to the police, encouraging this group we had arrested so I approached this group on the porch and told them that they were going to have to quieten down, they were disturbing the J . L . Ray, Dir 1526 . whole neighborhood and if they did not I was going to have to arrest them for disturbing the peace. Q. Now, Chief, how did you speak to that group of people? A. Using a portable loud speaker. Q. This portable loud speaker that you keep referring to, is this something that magnifies your voice? A. It is an amplifier, yes sir, operated by batteries. Q. And it is possible for parties some distance away to hear? A . Yes sir . Q. All right, sir, go on. A. They kept shouting and singing and the more I said the louder they would get, so after about the third time to approach this porch and tell these people, I told them they were under arrest because the entire group was shouting and singing and I told the police officer in the detail to arrest them. Some of them got on the porch and they stampeded, and even took over this person’s house; went inside and the officers were trying to block the doorway. They would just push by the officers any way they could get. It was a very disorderly and defiant group of people. Q. Do you know Ralph Edwin King? A . I do . Q. Did you know him on that date? A. I did J . L. Ray, Dir 1527 . Q. Did you see him on that date? A. I did. Q. And where did you see him? A. He was on the porch, he was a part of this disorderly group. Q. That was at what street number? A. 608 Rose Street. Q. You saw King on the porch at 608 Rose Street? A. I did. Q. Now, do you know John Salter? A. I do know him. Q. Did you know him on that date? A. I did. 0. Did you see him on that date? A. I did. Q. Where did you see him? A. On the porch at 608, he was a part of the disorderly group. Q. You stated that this gathering on the porch was yelling encouragement to the group that you had arrested. A . That’s right . Q. Did they address any remarks to anyone else? A. Yes, they were hollering at the group to hold onto your flags, dontt give them your flags. Q. Did they address any remarks to the police? J . L . Ray, D i r . 1528 . A . Y e s . Q. What type of remarks were they? A. “You injured this girl, you injured this girl,” and it seemed to be that one girl that lived in that house was injured. In my opinion, it was caused when this group stam peded and took over the house. MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, I ask that that be stricken since the witness doesn’t know what it was caused by. THE COURT: Yes, you can’t give your opinion. Itll sustain the objection.as to the opinion. MR. NICHOLS: Q. With reference to the injuring of any party on that porchj this girl that you referred to, did you see her? A. I did not, I did not see her. Q. All right, sir. Now, with regards to the parties that you arrested for parading that day and the parties you arrested for the other charge, disturbing the peace — A. Disturbing the peace. Q. What, if anything, did you do with them after you arrested them? A. They were transported to the temporary jail facility at the fair ground. Q. Now, you stated you saw John Salter on this porch J. L . Ray, Dir 1529. there at the house? A. That*s correct. Q,. Did you have occasion to see him anytime later in the day? A. I saw him, yes sir, I did. Q. All right, would you state the circumstances? A. Officer Blakeney had jumped on this porch and he was trying to keep the crowd from crowding into this house. He had John Salter and Reverend King in custody and at that time he was having a tussle with the two of them. Finally, I saw them on the ground. Q. Saw who on the ground? A. Officer Blakeney and John Salter. Then they got up and was moving, as I recall, moving toward the sidewalk of Rose Street, continuously tussling. He was resisting arrest and one of the officers, using his night stick, hit John Salter on the head. That conquered him. Q. I see. Did you take any action as a result of Mr. Salter being hit on the head? A. Yes sir, I told two officers to take him to the University Hospital to see if he needed medical attention. Q. And was that done? A . Yes sir, it was. Q. Now, you testified that you know of a street called Dalton Street here in Jackson, is that correct? J . L. Ray, Dir 1530 A . I do . Q. Would you briefly describe that street as to its location, width, and so forth? A. Dalton Street is about thirty feet in width, runs north and south and it is in the southern part of the city. It does not have sidewalks. Q. Approximately how wide is it? A. About thirty feet, I would estimate. Q. Is it paved or unpaved? A. It is a blacktopped paved street . Q. And there are no sidewalks or any walking area there? A. Yes sir, but a lot of the yards do take up the part that ±_s used, — they use a portion of the street a s a side- walk. Q. A party walking on Dalton Street then has to walk where? A. They walk along the curb line of Dalton Street. Cj. Now, state whether or not you were on duty on June 7, 1963? A . I was. Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform? A . I was. Q. State whether or not you had occasion to be in the vicinity of Dalton Street in Jackson, Mississippi, on that date? A I did J . L . Ray, Dir 1531 . Q. All right, sir. What, if anything, occurred while you were on Dalton Street at that time? A. About 4:30 P.M. I received a call that there was about to be a riot at Battlefield Park and to proceed to that location. I dispatched for police officers to meet me there at Battlefield Park. When I arrived there were two groups of people, one was over in the playground area near the swimming pool. There was another group moving toward that direction and they said, uLet us have, let us have them," so I immediately saw the danger of a riot and cleared the entire Park, told everybody to leave the Park and everybody obeyed my order. One group left walking west on Porter Street. Porter Street runs alongside the Battlefield Park. They walked there across Terry Road and they stopped at Jackson Boulevard and, I believe the name of that little street is Handy Street. They were ganged up out into the street, blocking the street and so at that time they were ordered to disperse and to move on up the street. They did and when they reached the intersec tion of Jackson Boulevard and Dalton Street they turned north on Dalton Street, but they were standing out JLn the street, the portion used by vehicular traffic. I rode up beside this group and told them that they were going to have to walk along the curb line, so they immedi ately moved over to the curb line and started walking along the curb line, but after they had walked about a block they again J . L. Ray, D i r . 1532 . got out into the street and was blocking the portion of the street that was used by vehicular traffic. At that time they were walking along the east curb line of Dalton Street. After they had marched about two blocks, or walked about two blocks there, they crossed the street, very slowly, then they started walking along the west curb line and they partially blocked the t o street again and I told them they were going to hav^ walk, — and I said, "I’m telling you my last time you are going to have to walk along the curb, you can’t block this street.” Well, they got up to the 1400 block of Dalton Street, which is about half way between Barrett and Florence Street and they stopped and gang_ed up out into the street extending about fifteen feet into the street, I felt that I had gone far enough and at that point I arrest ed them for obstructing the street . Q. Do you have any record to indicat e how many you arrest ed on that date? A. I do. Q. All right sir, how many were arrested? A. There was twenty-one arrested. Q. Does your record indicate how many were adults, if there were any juveniles? A. There were some juveniles, but my information notes, I don’t have that. Q. All right. Now, I am going to ask you to go back to J . L . Ray, Dir 1533 . the Rose and Peer Park incident and ask if yop have any record that would indicate how many parties were arrested on that date? A. Eighty-four arrested and thirty-nine of that eighty- four were adult s . Q. And the balance would be juveniles, is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. That would be approximately forty-five. Now, you have testified that you are familiar with Farish Street and that you, — and you have described Farish Street; 1*11 ask you whether or not you were on duty on June 15, 1963? A. June the 15th, yes sir, I was. Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform? A. I was. Q. 1*11 ask you whether or not you knew by name and sight the late Medgar Evers? A. I did. Q. And, now, I think the record already indicates that June 15th was the day of the funeral of Medgar Evers, is that correct ? A. That is correct . Q. Now, what, if anything, did you have to do with the funeral procession? A. I followed the funeral procession, — I followed along the line and, of course, the men under my supervision were placed along the route that this funeral procession was J * L. Ray, Dir 1534 . to follow to keep anybody from butting into it or interfering with the funeral procession at all. Q. Chief, would you briefly describe this procession as to the route it took; the volume of people in it and so forth? A. This funeral started at the Masonic Temple located on Lynch Street, which is the 1000 block of Lynch Street. They proceeded east on Lynch Street — and you make a turn there to kindly r- northeast and then you go ahead, and then it is known as Terry Road. Then Terry Road, without interruption, goes in to Pascagoula Street. At Pascagoula Street they continued marching east on Pascagoula Street until they reached the inter section of Pascagoula and Farish Street; they turned north on Farish Street, crossing the main streets, Pearl, Capitol, Amite, and Griffith Street, to a funeral home there, Frazier and Collins Funeral Home. We had police officers, I would estimate a hundred, scattered throughout this route to make it safe, and to control traffic and make it a non-hazard and not interfere with the funeral procession. Now, at the beginning of this procession there was several cars and an ambulance; it was an unusual thing, and then about five thousand people walking and marching. They had a permit for this occasion. Q. Now, were you able to observe whether or not this was a reverent and orderly group or not? A. At that time, it was, yes sir. J . L. Ray, Dir 1535 . Q. And, you said you followed the parade? A. I did. Q. Were you afoot? A. No sir, I was in an automobile and I tailed the parade, what we call tailing the — Q. Bringing up the rear? A. Thatts right, that’s correct. Q. Now, did you start, — when you started your car did your route follow the same route as the marchers? A. It did. Q. So then I presume you terminated your ride at the funeral home, is that correct? A. That’s correct. Q. Now, you stated that the police were stationed along the route to keep traffic from interfering with the line of march, is that correct? A. That’s correct, yes sir. Q. Was there any traffic, that is either pedestrian or vehicular traffic, allowed to intersect that procession at any point? A. No sir. Q.. Now, what, if anything, happened when you got to the funeral home, Chief? A. I drove by the funeral home and I turned; they were going through I imagine, — and they dispersed — they were J . L . Ray, D i r . 1536 . dispersing very peacefully it seemed like, so I proceeded on north on Farish and turned on Monument Street, then turned back south on Mill Street. Just about that time I received informa tion that a group was rioting, moving south on Farish Street. I immediately proceeded to Capitol and Farish Street and ordered those men who had been stationed along this route to meet me there. When I arrived at the intersection of Farish and Capitol Street, it looked like about a thousand people running, and shouting, and hollering. It was a very disorderly thing. Using this portable loud speaker, I said a permit was issued for this and it was supposed to be an honorable thing — ,#¥qu are supposed to be honoring, the dead and what you are doing is very dishonorable.” They began to holler “Shoot us, shoot us, shoot us.” They said, ”You killed him, shoot us, shoot us, shoot us,” and about that time, there wasn’t but about six police officers there, I continued to try to control the groupjby talking to them, by telling them that what they were doing was very dishonorable. Q. Let me interrupt you. Whery were these people standing at the time you were talking to them? A. They were in the center of Farish Street, all up and down the street, just completely taking over the sidewalk and the street and, in a little while, quite a number of police officers did get there and before they got there, they started throwing rocks, and bottles, and bricks from the alleys and in J . L. Ray, Dir 1537 . buildings. Several police officers were hit by them and it looked like we were going to lose control of the crowd. It wail a very toaichy situation^ and we couldn’t understand what had caused it. I looked up into the windows on the second floor on the west side of Farish Street, — on the second floor window, and leaning out these windows, I could see John Salter and King, who seemed to be shouting encouraging remarks to them. They were very disorderly and we got this formation and we started — in this -skirmisli line - started moving toward them. They were throwing rocks and bricks at us at that time. Q. Were the police throwing any rocks and bricks back them? A. No sir . Q. Yes sir, go on. A. And, as we would make contact with this group that would not move, we would arrest them. Every time we would arrest one, they would resist, kick, stomp; I don’t know, they just acted like wild people. I believe that day we arrested around twenty-two, fourteen police officers were injured, one police officer was hit on the head — helmet — with a brick and he was hospitalized, and that was about as disorderly a group as I have ever seen. Q. Now, as you moved these parties back you would arrest the group that would not move back? J . L • Ray, Dir 1538 . A. That is correct. Let me go a little further. We got on, we backed them on up to past the funeral home and we held our skirmish line, not wanting to interfere with those who were trying to honor the dead. We held our skirmish line across there and they were about half a block from us and they were icontinuously throwing bottles, but the only way, — « they couldn*t reach us from the distance that they were throwing them, but they hit in front of us and the glass would splatter and hit you . Mr. John Doar, with the Justice Department, I recog nized him. I called his attention to this group. I told him, ”Th$;s is the kind of people we have to deal with and you seev'V: what they are doing.” MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, I would object to any conversation. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: A. I said, and what they are this announcement group and, by the that this was Mr. down into the gro ”They are supposed to be honoring the doing is very dishonorable.” After ma several times, Mr. Doar went down to t way, they did throw at him, and I anno Doar with the Justice Department. He up and he tried to quiet them down; we dead king he unc ed went con tacted several other leaders of these groups and one of them J . L. Ray, D i r . 1539 . was Attorney Young. He did go down and try to talk to them, and finally Mr. Doar came to me and he says, "I believe we have got them quiet and I think if you will pull your officers out of here everything will be over with.11 I accepted his recom mendation. We moved out of there and the only other trouble we had was when the water truck went down to clear up all the glass, and rocks, and bottles. They did have some trouble with them throwing at them. Q. Now, were any Negro persons arrested that day? A. Yes sir. Q. Were any white people arrested that day? A . Yes sir . Q. Now, Chief, state to the Court whether you were on duty on May 30, 1963? A. Yes sir, I was on duty. Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform? A. Yes sir. Q. You stated you know Ralph Edwin King by sight, is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. you know I do. Did you know him by I did. You stated that you him by sight on that sight on that date? know John Salter by sight, day? Did A I did J . L. Ray, D i r . 1540 . Q-. Do you know one Joan Trumpower? A. I do. Q. Did you know her by sight on that date? A. I did. Q. Did you have occasion to see all or anyone of those persons on May 30, 1963? A. I did. Q. Where did you see them? A. In front of the Federal Building, this building. Q. JTJiat’s the Federal Building in Jackson, Mississippi? A. That*s correct. Q.. Commonly known as the Post Office? A. Thatts correct, yes sir. Q. All right, sir, relate the circumstances under which you saw these people at the Post Office on that date? A. I was at Headquarters and had received information that there was quite a gathering around the Post Office and to pro ceed to that location. I arrived here, I imagine it was about 4s30, and standing on the second level in front of the building facing, they were facing north, was fourteen persons, lined along the second level of the steps there and there was about a thousand people gathered in and around this building, this Post Office building, some of them were on the north side on Capitol Street and some on the south side, some behind these people and they were making such remarks and seemed to be in a very ugly J . L. Ray, Dir. 1541 . mood; that "They are not praying, they don*t know how to pray; they are not trying to do anything but cause trouble," "If youTll let us handle them, wetll handle them," and I could see that there was an immediate danger there and I felt it necessary to take some action and do it quickly to avoid a riot. They were directing their remarks to this group that had gathered there on the steps, so I walked up to this group and told them that they were blocking the entrance to this building and that their presence there was causing a breach of the peace. I ordered them to leave and they just kept standing there. Then I asked them if they understood my order and some indicated they did, and I asked if they were going to obey the order. After going through this the second time and none of them obeying the order, they were arjiesJt-ed. f o r breach of the peace. After they were arrested, all of them moved to the paddy wagon except Reverend King. When he was told that he was under arrest, he immediately fell to his knees and it was neces sary to carry him and place him in the wagon. Q. Now, Chief Ray, would you state whether or not you were on duty on May 29, 1963? A. Yes sir, I was. Q. Do you remember whether or not you were wearing your police uniform on that day? A . I was J . L. Ray, Dir 1542 . Q. Do you know Doris Erskine? A. Ido. Q. Did you know her on May 29, 1963? A. I did not know her by sight at that time, no sir. Q. Did you later learn her identity? A. I did. Q. Did you have occasion to see Doris Erskine on May 29, 1963? A. I did. Q. Would you relate the circumstances under which you saw her on that date? A. Yes sir, I was in front of H. L. Green’s, which is on Capitol Street — it’s on the north side of Capitol Street. ^ Now, let me Interrupt you here, please sir. We have mentioned Capitol Street many times. For the sake of the record, would you briefly describe Capitol Street? A. Capitol Street is the main street in the City of Jackson. It begins at the east end, I am starting at the east end — THE COURT: Let’s take about a fifteen minute recess. (After a fifteen minute recess, the proceedings continued as follows:) MR. NICHOLS: q . I believe you were describing Capitol Street, do you J . L . Ray, D i r . 1543 • remember where you were? A. Yes sir. Starting at the east end of Capitol Street, or the Old Capitol, traveling west, the first five blocks is known as East Capitol Street until you reach Farish Street, and that is all downtown business section. The next three blocks is known as West Capitol; that’s also downtown business section until you reach Gallatin Street; that’s eight blocks of down town business section. Then Capitol Street extends west about four miles until you reach the overhead bridge and it changes in to Clinton Boulevard. It is the main street in the City of Jackson. The downtown section is about sixty feet wide; has wide sidewalks on each side in the business section. Q. Now, do you know of your own knowledge, transposing your figure of blocks into mileage, how far it is from the Old Capitol on the east to Gallatin Street on the west? A. Eight tenths of a mile. Q. Now, to get back to the matter of Doris Erskine, on 5_29-63, before I interrupted you you had started to state that you were in front of a store by the name of H. L. Green. A. Yes sir, H. L. Green’s is on the north side of Capitol Street in the downtown business section. It’s in the 200 block of East Capitol, and I was standing in front of H. L. Green’s when I was approached and told that Mr. Gus Primos, manager of Primos No. 1, wanted us in his place immediately. Q. What type of place is — J . L . Ray, Dir 1544 . MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, I object to what anybody told him and ask that it be stricken. THE COURT: Overruled. MR. NICHOLS: Q. Is Primos No. 1 a place of business? A. Yes sir, it’s a place of business, it’s a private place, it is a restaurant. Q. Now, in relation to H. L. Green’s, what is the location of Primo s No. 1? A. It’s about, just guessing, it’s about six or eight doors down, or it is west of Primos on the same side of the street. Primos is also on the south side of Capitol Street in the 200 block of East Capitol. Q. Primos is on which side of Capitol Street? A. North side. Q. All right, sir, when you received this information what, if anything, did you do? A. I walked up to the entrance of Primos Restaurant and he summoned me in, Mr. Gus Primos. Q. Bid you enter the restaurant? A. I did. Q. What, if anything, took place when you were there? A. In the presence of Doris Erskine and others, he said, "I have ordered these people to leave my place of business and they will not leave.” MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, I will object to any conversation that doesntt have to do with any of the parties in this lawsuit. It i s!, hear say. THE COURT: Ifll overrule the objection, I donTt think so. THE WITNESS: A. And he ordered them to leave again and they just stood there. So at that point I asked them if they understood the manager of this establishment and they indicated they did. I said, "Are you going to obey it?" They just stood there. I then ordered them to leave and asked them if they understood my order. They indicated they did. I said, "Are you going to obey?" They did not and at that time I arrested them for tres- pa s sing. Q. Prior to being summonsed to the restaurant by the owner, had you been in it on that date? A. No sir. Q. I believe you stated this is a privately owned busi ness. A . Yes sir. Q. Now, with reference to any police officer that might J. L. Ray, Dir. 1545 . have been on the outside on the street, do you have policemen J . L. Ray, Dir 1546 . on this street in Jackson? A. Yes sir Q. Were there police on the street on that day? A. Yes sir . Q. In relation to the normal number that you keep on the street, was the number of police on the street on that day larger or smaller than your normal group? A. Larger. Q. Were there any particular reasons for it? A. Yes sir. Traffic that day had been unusually heavy. There was quite a number of unfamiliar faces in town and we had extra traffic officers up and down the street. Q.. Chief Ray, I believe you, — I donTt know whether you did or not, but I am going to ask you this question. Do you know whether or not there is a school in the City of Jackson known as Lanier High School? A. Yes sir. Q.. Do you know the location of it? A . I do . Q., Would you briefly tell me where it is located? A. Thatts in the northwest part of the city on the south west corner of Maple Street and Whitfield Mill Road. Q. Is it small, or medium-size, or a large school? A.- It's a large school, high school. Q. Now, were you on duty on May 30, 1963? J « L. Ray, Dir 1547 . A . I was. Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform on that day? A . I was. Q. Did you have occasion to be in the vicinity of Lanier High School in Jackson, Mississippi, on May 30, 1963? A. I did. Q. All right, sir, what, if visit to Lanier High School on that A. I had received informatio orderly group on the campus of Lani field Mill Road and Maple Street . and I would estimate at least five students on the campus and on the s shouting — anything, occurred on your dat e? n that there was quite a dis- er High School facing Whit- I proceeded to that location hundred what appeared to be idewalks there. They were Q. What time of day was this? A. About noon. Q. About noon? A. Yes sir. They were shouting and singing; there were newspapermen and photographers there and it seemed to be that they were putting on some kind of show for them. They would even get on cars, some of them would stand up on cars and make speeches. I contacted Professor Buckley who is the Professor of that school, hoping that they could handle the situation. So the first thing that I did, I summonsed Headquarters and told them to block off the area and keep everybody out of that J . L. Ray, D i r . 1548 . area. They were singing, shouting, chanting and causing quite a disturbance. I felt since it was a school that we would let the officials of the school try to handle the situation, and it seemed that they could not. Then a little later as these people would leave, we would not let them come back to the school. We would send them on home. Q. These are the students you are talking about? A. That’s right. Then about, I’d guess about 12:30, this group started throwing bottles and rocks at the police officers. So seeing that a riot was developing, I called for extra help and we immediately tried to move this group back into the school building. Q. Excuse me, was this on a normal school day? A. It was, sir. Q. And during schiool hours? A. It wa_s. An-d., -w-e had quite a bit of trouble moving them in, but we finally succeeded in getting most of them into the school. Three police officers were injured that day. And, Lieutenant Jones, he was around near the rear of the building at what is known as the workshop of Lanier High School, they were throwing planks, bricks, anything they could get their hands on, toward Lieutenant Jones and three other officers so Lieutenant Jones went after one of the fellows that had been throwing at him. They pulled the door down on him inside the shop, trapping him inside, and all of us had our hands so full J . L . R a y , D i r . 1549 . we couldn’t hardly get to him, and it appeared that some of the teachers assisted him in getting out of there, and he came out with one that had been throwing, but he got away. I don’t believe we arrested but three that day. Q. Now, you stated that you blocked off the area. Was that around the school? A. Yes sir, within a block or two-block area. It was handled by Chief Armstrong then who is in charge of traffic. Q. If a student wanted to go home, leave this group and go home, you allowed him to do that? A. Yes sir, we worked very closely with Professor Buckley after we had gotten them into the school, then he let them out anyway that he saw fit and we assisted him in any way that we could. to go that here agent Q. Now, what about the newspapermen, were they allowed in there? A. No sir, nobody but FBI agents and police officers. Q. There were FBI agent s there? A. Yes sir, they were present in all of these places we have had trouble. Q. You mean each one of these that you have reiterated in your direct testimony that you could recognize FBI s as being present and witnessing these arrests? A . Yes sir . MR. BELL: J . L . Ray, D i r . 1550 . Your Honor, we are going to object to all of this line of testimony. Plaintiffs didn’t put on any testimony concerning this Lanier High School incident as a part of any program, demonstrations, or anything, and that is completely irrelevant to any ;issues.in this case. THE COURT: Overruled. MR. BELL: If he is going to do this, we can put on any number of disturbances at schools, hospitals, and — »> THE COURT: Well, this seems to be about the same time. I’ll overrule the objection. What was the FBI doing on this case? THE WITNESS: They were just observing sirl I imagine they had received orders to do that. MRS. MORRIS: I would like that stricken as it is what he imagines. THE COURT: Yes, tell us what you know please. THE WITNESS: Yes sir, they were present — THE COURT: Did they try to help you in any way? THE WITNESS: J . L . Ray, Dir . 1551 . No sir, I can’t say that. THE COURT: All right. MR. NICHOLS: Q. Chief Ray, do you know the location of a store by the name of F. W. Woolworth Company here in Jackson? A. Ido. Q. Would you state where that is located, please sir? A. F. W. Woolworth is in the one hundred block of East Capitol. It is on the north side of the street about half way in the block between Farish and Lamar Streets. Q. Are you familiar with that store? A, I am. Q. Could you describe the physical outlay of that store? A. It faces south. It has four double-door entrances and it is about 125 feet from wall to wall and about 125 to 150 feet in depth. It has rear doors. Inside the store they have coun ters running east and west and north and south and they are piled high with merchandise. Q.. Now the doors you described, the main doors in front, of what material are they constructed? A. They are glass, double doors. Q. Does the store have any type of windows? A. Glass windows. Q. Were you on duty on May 28, 1963? J . L . Ray, i)ir . 1552 . A . Yes sir, I was. Q. Were you dressed in your police uniform on that day? A . I was. Q. Bid you have occasion to be in the vicinity of F. W. Woolworth Company on that date? A. I did. Q. All right, sir, what, if anything, occurred at the time you were at that particular store on that date? A. We had received information that there was trouble at the F. W. Woolworth store so I went to the F. W. Woolworth Com pany and was in front of the building with three other police officers. I contacted the manager, I believe his name is Mr. Braun; inquired of him as to what was the trouble. He informed us that everything was under control. At that time, I told him that we were available to assist him in any way possible; we would be there when he needed us. He thanked us and went back inside. Q. At that time did he request your help? A . He did not. Q. Now, did anything else occur? A. We remained in front of the store and I sent a plain- clothed officer inside since I had been informed that there was trouble inside. I told him to observe and see what was taking place. Q. What was that officers name, Chief? J . L . Ray, D i r . 1553 . A . J . L . Black. Q. All right . A. After he had been in there a little while he said that the people were a little rowdy and they were jeering at a group that was at the lunch counter. I told him to go and get the manager, I wanted to talk to him again and I did talk to Mr. Braun and I told him that I understood they were a little rowdy. He said, "They are a little noisy, but everything seems to be under control." I said, "Bo you need our assistance?" He said, "No, not at this time." MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, I want to object to all of the testimony that has to do with'conversation. Would you note it as a con tinuing objection? THE COURT: Yes, you may have a continuing objection to conversa tions at this time, which I think are pertinent to this inquiry and the objection is overruled. MR. NICHOLS: Q. That was the second time you talked to the manager, is that correct? A. That is correct. Mr. Black, officer Black, continued to stay inside and observe. Shortly, he came out with two people he had arrested. I asked him what the trouble was and he said they were fighting. J . L . Ray, D i r . 1554 . Q. Do you happen to know the names of those two people? A . I do . Q. Who were they? A. Memphis Norman and Bennie Oliver. Q. Do you know the race of Memphis Norman? A. He is colored. Q. And the race of Bennie Oliver? A. He is white. Q. All right, go on please. A. He turned those two over to the officers out there with me. They transported them to the main jail facility. Then shortly after that he arrested another one. I don’t remem ber his name, but -- Q. Do you remember his race? A . He was whit e. Q . All right . A. It seemed that he had grabbed some girl off of a stool in Woolworth Company and proceeded to throw her out of the store. I then, again, contacted Mr. Braun; told him that it seemed there was a lot of trouble in there and it looked as though he needed our assistance. He said, "Well, I think it has quietened down some other than a lot of jeering and talking," and he said, "I have a call into the main office in New York and as soon as I hear from them, I’ll let you know." The next I heard from Mr. Braun was he told me he J . L . Ray, Dir 1555 . was closing the store. He did close the store, locked the door and all the people came out. Let me go back just a little bit. In the meantime, I was contacted by Dr. Beittel and Mercedes Wright. Q. Did you know them at the time? A. I did. Q. Do you know by whom Dr. Beittel was employed, for example? A. President of Tougaloo College. Q. Do you know who Mercedes Wright was? A. A youth worker with the NAACP from Atlanta, yes. Q. You were contacted by these two parties? A. That is correct. Dr. Beittel said, “There is trouble inside and you need to be in there." I said, "Dr. Beittel, I just got through talking with the manager and he said it was just a lot of jeering, that everything seemed to be pretty well under control; that as soon as he heard from New York hefd let me know as to what he wished us to do." I said, "It seems that those in there that are causing all the trouble are from Tougaloo College and you are President of that College, don*t you have some control over them?" At that time he told me that school was out and he had no control. And I said, "Well, 1*11 tell you what you do, you go contact Mr. Braun and tell him that if he wants us in there, weTll be glad to go in." I did see him later and asked him if he had contacted him and he said, "I did." J . L. Ray, Dir 1556 . Q. All right, stop at that point. You say that Mercedes Wright, — did you have any conversation with her? A . Yes . Q. What was that? A. She wanted to know why we didn*t go in there and, as I recall, I explained to her that this was a private establish ment and the manager was a responsible person and we do not make it a practice to interfere with anybodys business unless they request us to do so. I contacted Dr. Beittel again and asked him if he had found the manager and he said he did and I asked him what he found out and he said the manager told him he was waiting on a call from New York. Q. Now, in your testimony you got up to the point where the manager was locking the door. I presume that was the front door that he was locking. A . That* s right . Q. You were still in front of the store? A. That is correct. Q. Outside? A. That is correct. Q. All right, sir, go on at that point and tell us what, if anything, happened next. A. It seemed that all the people did come out. Then I was contacted by Dr. Beittel and he said, "Those people in there J . L. Ray, D i r . 1557 . want to come out, will you protect them?*1 Q. Did you know what people he was talking about? A. I assumed that he was talking about all those that had been causing all the trouble, that were the sit-ins. Q . All right . A. I said, "Certainly we will, we will even provide trans portation," and I called for the paddy wagon to transport them wherever they wanted to go. They came out, we surrounded them, and the paddy wagon arrived and they refused to get in the paddy wagon. Then Reverend King — Q. Now, hold on just a moment. At the point they came ooit, you said you surrounded them. Was there any particular reason why you surrounded them when they came out? A. No sir, we just got around them in case anybody did want to cause them any harm. Q. Were there other persons there on the outside of the store? A. There was people up and down the street, jes sir. Q. Did you estimate the crowd as to how many were there or anything like that? A. We kept the people moving as best we could. There wasn't too many. Q. Now, you said you called for the paddy wagon. Was it your intention at that time to arrest these people? A. No sir, to assist them to their location, their J . L . R a y , D i r . 1558 . destination. Q. You offered them transportation to where they wanted to go? A. That is correct. Q. And they refused this? A. That is correct. Q. How did they get away from the store? A. Reverend King came in his Rambler station wagon and part of them got in the wagon with him. We assisted him in getting away from there with these people. Q. Now, Chief Ray, at the time prior to the manager lock ing the doors and while everybody was still in Woolworth Company, at the point where you stood was it possible for you to look through the store and to see the people at the counter? A. No sir. Q. Why could not you do that? A. The counters are piled high with merchandise and there was quite a number of people inside which blocked the view com pletely . this Q. Have you had occasion to go in A . Yes sir. Q. Did you have occasion to go in incident on May 28? A. Following that incident, I did Q. Did you determine the point at that store recently? it around the time of go in the store. the lunch counter where parties were seated? A . Yes sir . Q. Are you able to state whether or not you could see from the point where they were seated to -the outside through the window? A. At one point there you can see partially out the aisle provided there are no people in the asile. With any people in the aisle you cannot see out at all. Q. I see. One final question, Chief Ray, have you had occasion to examine the records of the Police Department to determine a total number of arrests in the demonstration cases from approximately May 25 to the end of the summer of 1963? A . Yes sir . Q. Do you have that total with you? A. 1,092. Q. Thank you, sir . MR. NICHOLS: May it please the Court, that is all the direct examination. MRS. MORRIS: I didn’t get the last — for all those 1,092. THE COURT: May the 25th to the end of the summer. CROSS EXAMINATION J. L. Ray, Dir. 1559. MRS. MORRIS: J . L . Ray, Cr . 1560 . Q. What group of the police are you attached to? A. I am in charge of the Patrol Division, that is the three shifts that work the twenty-four hour tour of duty. Q. You are not in the traffic group then? A. Not under traffic, no. The men under my supervision do assist with traffic. Q. But who is in control of the traffic group? A. Deputy Chief Beavers Armstrong. Q. Now, during these incidents you testified to, you were working with the traffic detail, weren’t you? A. I was working with the traffic detail and the Patrol Division, yes. Q. Now, on May the 3lst in the area of the Farish Street Church, how long were you in the area of the Farish Street Church before arrests were made? A. I had been in that area prior to the arrests on Livingston Road at 3:30. I returned to that location about 4:00 o’clock. Q. But you had been in the Farish Street Church area earlier? A. That is correct. THE REPORTER: Excuse me, I didn’t understand the question, you had been where? MRS. MORRIS: He had been at the Farish Street Church area earlier. THE REPORTER: Thank you. MRS . MORRIS: And you came back to the Farish Street Church area. THE WITNESS: A. After the Livingston Road arrests — MRS. MORRIS: Q. How many people were with you, how many policemen?'. A. At that time, I would say, at the beginning I would say around 50 to 75, including traffic officers. Q. And where were these 50 to 75 policemen stationed? A. I would say around 50 or more at the intersection of Hamilton and Farish; the others were in the area of the Farish Street Baptist Church. Q. Now, that intersection is about 150 yards from the church? A. About that. Q. Approximately how many blocks, do you remember? A. Well, there^ Hobsons Alley and Oakley Street and Church Street . Q. But these are not full blocks? A. That is correct. Q. Now, your detail was at that intersection, were there J. L. Ray, Cr. 1561. police also at Mill Street? J . L . Ray, C r . 1562 . A. At Mill Street? Q. Yes, if you could say? A. I don’t know. Q. You don’t know whether there were any there? A. Chief Armstrong was-in charge of the detail of traffic control. He assigned those men. I do not know. Q. Now, you were looking toward the church, looking north I believe it is on Farish Street? A. That is correct. Q. And there were another group of policemen stationed on the other side of the church, weren’t there? A. There was some traffic officers at Farish and Monument There were also some at Farish and Church I believe. Q. So that the Farish Street Church area was surrounded by policemen? A. That is correct. Q. And they were surrounded by policemen at least a half hour before these arrests were made? A . Yes. Q. Now, as soon as the group began to leave the church, that’s when you formed your line across the street? A . That is correct . Q. And, how long were these people on the street before you placed them under arrest, before you asked them to stop? A. Long enough for them to walk from the Farish Street J . L . Ray, C r . 1563 • Baptist Church in parade formation to Hamilton Street. Q. How much time do you think that took? A. Not long. Q. Can you give me your best estimate? A. Le as_ than five minutes, I would say. After they started, I would say less than five minutes. Q„ From the time they exited the church they were arrested within about two minutes from the time they hit the street, weren’t they? A. I don’t know, it would be within two to five minutes, yes . Q. Now, at the time your police line barricaded the area, the first people in this group were meeting, there was a similar line to the other side of the church, wasn’t there? A. Repeat the question? Q. At the time that you had formed a — what did you call your line? A. Skirmish line. Q. Skirmish line across the street, there was a similar skirmish line opposite you, wasn’t there? By a group of police on the other side. A. No . Q. ¥ou don’t recall that? A. No . Q. Do you recall being able to see down there to see what J . L . Ray, C r . 1564 . the police were doing? A. That was a traffic detail assigned there, they were -- Q. Do you inow what that traffic detail was doing? A . I do not. Q. So you were not in a position to say what was going on down there? A. That is correct. Q. Now, you asked the group to stop and you told some of them that, — you told them that those who wanted to dissemble and leave could. A. My words were "Those who want to disperse and move on peacefully, will be allowed to do so." Q. And, some of the group began to move? A. Some did disperse. Q. Where did they begin to move to? A. They moved on out of that area, some of them went into private businesses there. Q. And some of them went into the streets around the area? A . Yes. Q. And then you placed them under arrest, the remaining group? A. Those who remained in parade formation, I did, yes. Q. And they were arrested for parading without a permit? A. That is correct. Q. Some of them, you said, Aegan to move into Hobsons J . L, Ray, C r . 1565 . Alley? A. They stampeded, just like a bunch of wild people, yes. Q. Now, under the circumstances that existed, policemen on all sides of them, Hobsons Alley was one of the few places that any group could go, wasn’t it? A. That’s right, they could move into Hobsons Alley, but we surrounded that too. Q. So you had Hobsons Alley under control? A. At that time I had other officers there, which was the Sheriff’s office and the Highway Patrol. Q. How many of the Sheriff’s officers were there? A. I would imagine twenty-five and possibly fifty Highway Patrolmen by that time had arrived. Q. So that was a total of over one hundred policemen? A. That is correct. Q. And what area were they covering? A. They came in by Hamilton Street and Hobsons Alley. Q. Then they were within, let’s say, a three block area, weren’t they; these hundred and some odd policemen? A. That’s correct. Q. Now, why were a hundred and some odd policemen in that area at that time? A. This was just after the Lanier High School incident and when those people went wild, went to throwing rocks and bottles and, since it is the duty of police officers to preserve J . L . Ray, C r . 1566 . the peace, maintain law and order; we didn’t know what this group of people would do and it was necessary to have that many because they resisted and stampeded into Hobsons Alley. iQ. Well, you didn’t know this before the police were — A. I did not, but we were trying to be prepared for such an incident. Q. Well, you were prepared to arrest them before they left the church, weren't you? A. We are prepared to arrest anybody that violates the law. If they had not violated the law, they would not have been arrested . Q. Well, let’s see if we can’t do it this way, Chief Ray. You knew that there were a group of people in the church? A. That’s correct. Q. And you were stationed in that area to make sure that they didn’t take part in any demonstration? A. That is not correct. Q. That’s not? A. No . Q. You had a hundred and fifty people there just in case something should happen? A. We were there to preserve the peace, maintain law and order. Q. And your idea of preserving the peace, isn’t it sir, is to keep these people out of the street or taking part in any J . L . Ray, C r . 1567 . demonstration. A. My idea of preserving the peace is to prevent riots and to prevent law violators from violating the law and if they do violate the law it is my duty, as a police officer, to pre serve the peace, maintain law and order, to arrest them. Q. And you had anticipated that there would be trouble? A. I didn’t know, yes, and that is the reason we had that many officers there in the event that it did happen. Q. Now, did the group ever really get a chance to leave the church? You said the front of the group came toward you, did the back of the group ever get out of the church? A. Yes. You mean, I don’t understand — the 400 or more in the parade all left the church and moved — Q. They had left the church? A. That is correct. Q. Had they left the church before they were put under arrest? A . Yes . Q. You had placed them under arrest, now before they were put under arrest, before you asked the front part of the group to stop, wasn’t the back still proceeding? A. Let me give you the whole detail. No one was arrested until they had been given the order and asked if they had a per mit to parade -~ Q. Now, I understand that, but. — J . L . R a y , C r . 1568. A. and I walked up and down this group of about 400 people, making this announcement, using an amplifier or portable speaker — Q. Before that you asked them to stop — A. — Let me finish this, just a minute. Then I told those who would disperse and move on peacefully that they would be allowed to do so . I gave them ample time to do that . I told those who remained in formation that they would be arrested and charged with parading without a permit. I gave them ample time to disperse, those who wanted to. I asked them in an informa tive way so that those who did not know that it was a violation of the law to parade without a permit, that they could disperse. Then, those who remained were arrested for parading without a permit. After we started loading them, they stampeded, defying law and order, resisting, went into Hobsons Alley like a bunch of wild people. Q. Now, when you asked them to stop, when they first approached you, you said they were some few feet in front of you and hadn’t reached the police line. A. That is correct. Q. The group was still proceeding down the street? A . That is correct . Q. And they were walking on the side of the sidewalk, were they not? A. There was a group of about twenty in what you might J . L . Ray, C r . 1569 . call the first section of the parade, led by Willie Ludden. Then, immediately following them, there was this 350 or more, following them in columns of six to eight in the street and com pletely taking up the sidewalk. Q. And they were still coming out of the church at this time? A. That is correct. Q. So that actually they were stopped before the group had actually gotten there? A. The first one was stopped. He couldn’t go any further. Q. So as a result, the rest of the group backed up — A.. By that time the others had arrived and — Q. And there was no place forward where they could go, is that not a fact? A. That is a fact. Q. So that they began to approach one another and the group backed upon itself because there was no other area that they could go into, is this not so? A, They were, at that time after they all had been arrested, they were into the street and in columns of twos. What you are trying to make it appear that, they were in columns of twos, and the reason they were ganged up in the street is because they couldn’t, but that is not correct. Q. Was there any place for them to go, Captain Ray? A. Not when they reached the skirmish line, no. J . L . Ray, C r . 1570 . Q. Not when they reached the skirmish line, that^s what I»m trying — A. Thatfs right. They were in this formation, twenty people in columns of twos, on the sidewalk, will not take up but just about as much space as from here to that bench. Now, this whole -- Q. How far apart were these twenty people? A. They were just about that far apart. Q. Do you want to tell me that in feet. She can!t take down — A. Maybe two and one-half to three feet. Q. And you said they had a flag — MR. NICHOLS: If it please the Court, counsel interrupted the wit ness right in the middle of a sentence. THE COURT: Yes, let him finish his sentence. THE WITNESS: A. They will not take up — twenty people in columns of twos, will not take up as much space as from here to that bench. Then, immediately following them, in columns of six to eight in the street of about 3i>-D to 375 will not take up the entire dis tance from the church to where these others were. They were in arrested in the formation that they left/ when they got into formation at the church J . L . Ray, C r . 1571 . Q. You mean from the time that they were put under arrest nobody moved? A. After they were, — oh sure, they moved. Now you know they didn’t stand Q. They were milling all around the area then? A. That’s right. Q. That’s what I’m trying to -- A. They weren’t, wait a minute now, they weren’t milling around the area until they stampeded like a bunch of wild people and went into Hobsons Alley. Q. They stood absolutely still when they were put under arrest? *— A. No, they did not. Q. -- Then they went into Hobsons Alley where they stood still some more? A. They didn’t stand absolut-ely still. They didn’t stand at attention, rigid attention, no. Q. Were they moving about at that time? A. They were shouting, chanting — Q. I didn’t ask were they shouting, I asked — A. — Singing, and they did move some. They talked to each other. It was quite a disorderly group. Q. So after you put them under arrest, there was some movement going on? A. That’s correct. J . L . Ray, Cr 1572 . THE COURT : How far would of this group, say how far was that person you say it was from the back of the line the northernmost person in the group, from the church? THE WITNESS: You.r side of Oakley church. Honor,. I would say about, Street. They were all at — they were all this least a block from the MRS. MORRIS: Q. Now, where did you have the trucks that were used to transport them standing? A. I didn’t have them. Q. You had trucks there? A. I calle-d for transportation at Headquarters. We had some that the police officers came in furnished by the Engineer ing Department. Then we had — Q. Wait, tell me what were these -- A. They were covered trucks, about a ton truck. They would transport about twenty to thirty. Q. Now, you had some of these in the area? A. The police officers arrived in those and we also had our regular patrol wagon. It was there; it won’t take care of very many. Then I called Headquarters and told them I needed transportation and needed it fast. Then shortly after that the garbage trucks arrived. J . L . Ray, C r . 1573 . Q. How many garbage trucks arrived? A. I don’t know. Q. You don’t remember? A. No, I sure dontt. Enough to take care of the 322. THE COURT: J)i4 -I understand yxsiu to say that these garbage trucks had not been previously used before for hauling garbage, or had they been used? THE WITNESS: They were brand new trucks, Your Honor. THE COURT: I understand, but had they been used? THE WITNESS: They had not been used at all for garbage. MRS. MORRIS: Q. Did you inspect each _ojie of them, Captain? A. I didn’t inspect each one of them individually. I did inspect the trucks outside and they were brand new trucks. Q. To the best -of;, your knowledge as to the ones you inspect ed? ' A. That’s right. The ones -that I inspected were brand new trucks. I did check with Mr. Mixon and inquired of him — Q.. I didn’t ask you what you checked with Mr. Mixon. MR. NICHOLS: May it please the Court, we think that this officer J . L. Ray, Cr . 1574 . has got a right to show whether he made an investigation which will reveal the answer to that question. THE COURT: Yes, I think so. Answer the question. MRS. MORRIS: If tie Court please, — THE COURT: Overruled. Answer the question. THE WITNESS: A. I inquired of Mr. Mixon, who is in charge of the Sanitation Department, and he said that every truck that he sent was brand new; had rtever been used to haul anything in. MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, may I move that that be stricken. That is self-serving here »«- THE COURT: Yes, I’ll sustain that motion to strike what somebody said to you. MRS. MORRIS: That was to be the tenor of my objection. Q. What type of garbage trucks were these, how were they made, constructed? A. I’m not too familiar with that. They are the pressure type; they have doors on the side and they have a vacuum inside that can be used to push garbage back. I am not that familiar J . L . Ray, C r . 1575 . with garbage trucks. Q. Are they closed on all sides? A. They are. Q. Bo they have any windows in them? A. They have this opening on the side that you can, -- they have no windows. Q. ThatTs a door on the side? A. ThatTs correct. Q. And once the door is closed there is no ventilation in the truck, is there? A. I donTt know of any. I don*t think the door was ever closed. I never did see it closed. Q. Other than the door, there is no ventilation in these trucks. These trucks are constructed to move materials not people? A. That is correct. Q. Now, when you were on Livingston Road, I think this was the same day -«~ A. That was the same day. Q. You said that somebody called you — that you had received a radio message -- A. That is correct. Q. That there were a group of people on Livingston Road? A. That is correct. Q. And you went to Livingston Road? J . L . Ray, C r . 1576 . A. That is correct. Q. And you put up your skirmish line? A. Well, we didn’t have the skirmish line completely, — we didn’t have enough officers to form a complete skirmish line at that time. Later I did. They had arrived there before we had a complete line across the street. Q. They had arrived there? Who were they? A. The paraders. Q. They were on Livingston Road, I understand. And you said you didn’t know anything about this until you got a call on the radio. A. With the officers that we had, we did spread across the street at that time. Q. And you took your detail and you went up to Livings ton Road where you encountered these people? A. No, we waited. They were about a half a block when I arrived from the intersection of Ridgeway and Livingston. Q. When you got to the intersection, they were coming toward you — hand, A. That’s correct. Q. — And then is when you put a line across the street? A. That is correct. Q. Now, you didn’t know anything about this group before- did you? A. No, the only thing I knew was what I had been informed. J . L . Ray, C r . 1577 . Q. After you put up your skirmish line, then you asked them if they had a permit to parade? A. That is correct. They were singing, shouting, had placards and flags. It was very evident that it was a parade and they had people gathered on porches observing -- Q. And you had stopped them first though^ before you had asked them about this. You had stopped them with your skirmish line? A. This had already taken place when I stopped them. Q. Now, how many policemen did you have on Livingston Road? A. I imagine we had a total of forty by the time we got them loaded. To begin with, I imagine there were fifteen. Q. Were they all at one end of Livingston Road* or were they interspersed throughout the area? A. They were all at that particular location. Q. They were all down where your skirmish line was? A. That’s right . Q. Now, you had been called by a patrol car, hadn’t you, to your knowledge, were you? A. I was given that information by radio. Q. Do you know where the radio call came from? A. I do not, at that time. I later contacted a car in that area and told them to observe the group and they informed me about the group as I was enroute to this location. J . L . Ray, Cr . 1578 . Q. So there was a police car in this area as this group proceeded down Livingston Road? A. Yes, there is a police car in most any area in the City of Jackson at any time. Q. There were more than usual in that area at that time, weren’t there? A. No . Q. There were not more policemen than usual during the summer? A. Not until I summonsed them to meet me at Livingston and Ridgeway. Q. Now, let me see if I can — you understand me. There were more policemen than usual in the area of Farish Street and in the area of Livingston Road, than is usual, wasn’t there? A. I don’t know as I understand the question. If you are asking me if there was more people in the area of Livingston Road prior to my summons, my answer is no. After my summons, my answer is yes. Q. There are more there were more policemen in the general areas that we were talking about during that time in the summer than there are, for instance, now? A. No, in other words, it’s the same amopnt working that area now as it was that day prior to my summons for them to meet me there. Q. Since this summer have you had occasion to have 150 policemen in the area of Farish Street Church? A. No . Q. So that there were more policemen in the summer than there are now? A. That is correct. Q. Now, on June the 1st, which has to do with Pascagoula and Poindexter, how many policemen were in the area at this time? A. About fifty. Q. And where were they stationed? A. As I testified to to begin with, we were at the inter section of Lynch and Terry Road. Q. Were you there before anybody was in the street? A. I don’t, — possibly we were, yes. Q. Do you know where your radio message that there were a group of people coming down the street came from that day? A. It came from Lieutenant Bennett. Q. And where was the Lieutenant stationed? A. He was on Lynch Street. Q. Where on Lynch Street? A. Near the Masonic Temple. Q. He was stationed across the street from the Masonic Temple, wasn’t he? A. He was there observing, yes. Q. And, how long had he been there? J . L. Ray, C r . 1579. J . L . Ray, C r . 1580 . A. I don’t know. Q. There was somebody stationed there at all times during the summer, wasn’t there? Let’s just take June to simplify matt er s . A. Probably not at all times, but most of the time, yes. Q. Most of the time? A . Yes. Q. Now, on June 13th you placed two groups under arrest. You placed a group that were in a protest demonstration, you ar rested a group of people who were on a porch. I think you gave the address as 608 Rose Street. Bo you know whose house that is? A. It belongs to a Miles person, I don’t remember her full name. Q. Were you familiar with her before they were on that porch? A . No . Q. Bo you know how tho se-p-eople came to be on that porch? A. They were part of the group that flocked out of the Pearl Street AME Church. Q. But they were not in the group carrying flags or posters in this protest demonstration? A. They were not part of the parade. Q. They were watching, — observing? A. That is correct. L Ray, Cr 1581 .J Q. And you and your men went up on the porch at 608 Rose Street and arrested a group of them? < • • i A. That is correct. Q. Bid you arrest Mrs. Miles? A. I did not. Q. Did you know where she was at the time? A . I did not ♦ Q. So you didn*t ask to talk to her at that time? A. I did not. I might add this though, if you would like, we arrested Tommy Miles who did live there. He was arrested for abusive language, resisting arrest, and distrubing the peace. Q. On his porch? A. That is correct. Q. But Mrs. Miles'didn*t complain about the people stand ing on her porch, did she? A. I talked to her later. Would you like to know the conversation I had with her? Q. No, I asked you, before you made the arrest, had she complained aJbxuit the people standing on her porch to you? A. She did not complain. Q. Now, this group that you arrested on Dalton Street who had been at Battlefield Park, you said there were two groups in Battlefield Park, one approaching the other? A. That is correct. Q. And the group that you arrested, I take it, were all J . L . Ray, C r . 1582 . Negro ? A. They were. Q. And what was the group who you said were approaching? A. They were white. They came up in cars and they were ready to go to battle with this group. Q. Did you arrest either group? A. I ordered the entire park cleared and they all obeyed the order. Q. Now, you apparently followed the group that you even tually arrested, didntt you? A. That is correct. Q. You followed them as they went on their way? A. I did not follow them. After they had ganged up and blocked the intersection there at Jackson Boulevard and, I believe, it is Handy Street, I went to that location and dis persed them from blocking this entire street. Q. And then you talked to them on three different occa sions subsequently? A. At that time there was about fifty of them. When they reached the intersection of Dalton and Jackson Boulevard, then Jackson Boulevard changes into Hair Street. About half of this group went down Hair Street, the other half went north on Dal ton Street. I mentioned to them three times to stay out of the street and walk close to the curb. Q. So, therefore, you talked to them on three occasions J . L . Ray, Cr. 1583 . You were not walking, I take it, — A. I approached them, that’s right. Q. You were in a car? A. By automobile, correct. Q. So you were following the group from the time they left the park? A. Well, if you want to put it that way, but I did not follow the group at all. After, — the information was that were they had ganged up here at the intersection, and/completely blocking that street, 'I went to that location. Then, as the duty of a police officer, after they once had done this, I felt it was my duty to see that they did not block the street anymore. Q. So you kept them under surveillance and talked to them on three subsequent occasions? A. After I saw that they did not want to do right, I did, yes. Q. That was the way you felt about it, that they did not want to? A. Well, it proved out that that was the way it was. Q. Now, did you follow any other group from the park? A . No, I did not. Q. Just this one group? A. I didn’t follow them from the park, as I have testi fied — J . L . Ray, Cr 1584 . Q. Well, we disagree as to whether you followed them, let’s get rid of the word. This group that you arrested, did you have occasion to stop any other group before they left the park? Or place any other group under arrest? A. I did not . Q. Just this one group of Negroes? A. That is correct. Q. Now, these were a group of teenagers, weren’t they? A. What day was that? Q. June the 7th. A. There was twenty-one arrested. As I recall, there were teenagers in the group, and I believe it was about half and half, I don’t recall; I don’t have that information. Q. You have the information for all the others, but you don’t have it for this day? A. I may not have it for all the others. I have twenty- one arrested here. Of course, I know some of the group, Jessie Harris, he’s an adult, and Helen O’Neil, I believe she’s about eighteen, I believe she would be considered an adult, and — - Q. Do you remember all of them? A. I don’t remember all of them, I sure don’t. Q. And you don’t have any notes on how many adults or how many teenagers were there? A. No, I do know there were some adults in the group. Q. When you ordered the park cleared, why did you do it? J . L . Ray, Cr 1585 . A. To avoid a riot. Q. You thought there would be a riot with the white people interfering with the Negroes in the Park? A. I thought there would be a riot between these two groups of people. Q. Is this park generally used only by white persons A. Correct . Q. Now, on May 29th, you were on Capitol Street and arr est ed this Doris Erskine in Primos Restaurant. Now, you said you were standing in the area of Green’s. How many policemen were in the area — not the area of Green’s, t he .area of Capitol Street on that day? A. Probably, I don’t know exactly, I’ll try to estima it. P ro bably at the intersection of Lamar and Capitol, the: were two traffic officers, and at West Street there were pr̂ ably two traffic officers. Probably six police officers, i: cluding myself. Q. Within how many blocks? A. Within a block. Q. Within a block? A. Right . Q. Were there more policemen than normal in the area t hat day? A. Yes . Q. Now, Primos operates a restaurant, doesn’t he? J . L . Ray, Cr. 1586 . A. That’s correct . Q. And he restricts his clientele to white persons? A. I can’t answer that, but -- Q. Bid you ever see any Negroes in there eating? A. Never have. Q. Have you ever been in there? A. Yes, I have been in there. Q. Have you eaten there? A. I don’t know, it’s been a long time. I think I have eaten there . THE COURT: Are you at a convenient stopping place? MRS. MORRIS: Yes, I think so. I have quite some material — THE COURT: I figured you would. All right, we will just take a recess for lunch until 1:30. (After recess for lunch, at 1:30 P.M. the proceedings continued as follows:) MRS. MORRIS: Q. On June the 15th, Captain Ray, you testified that you had been in the area of the funeral home following the funeral procession and you went some place else, and you got a call there was trouble in the area and then you returned. A. That is correct J . L . Ray, C r . 1587 . Q. So that what you described was happening after you got back? A. I tailed the funeral procession and I passed by this funeral home and everybody seemed to be dispersing peacefully. I went on past the funeral home, turned west on Monument Street, then back north on Mill Street which, — Mill Street runs paral lel with Farish Street — and at that time I was informed that a group was rioting going south on Farish Street. I received this information from Captain Lowrey. Q. Was Captain Lowrey at the scene? A. I beg your pardon? ft. Was Captain Lowrey at the scene? A. Yes, he was. Q. So, you don*t know how — A. So, let me complete this. So I asked Captain Lowrey was that part of the group that seemed to be dispersing. He said if they -- Q. I would object to anything he told you. THE COURTS Overruled. THE WITNESS: A. So he said "If they are dispersing, they are mighty disorderly, hollering and chanting and just like a wild bunch,” and he said, "They are headed toward Capitol Street.” So at that time, I summonsed the radio and told them to tell the men J . L . Ray, Cr. 1588 . to come to Capitol and Farish Street and by the time I was there they were almost to Capitol Street, and it was a wild group. Q. During the time that you weren’t there, you don’t know how it started of your own knowledge? A . I do not . Q. And you deployed your men to Capitol and Farish? A. Those men who had been stationed along the funeral procession route, yes. Q. Were there already policemen in the area? A. Yes, there were already policemen at Farish and Capitol because that is a main artery. Q. And there were State Troopers there that day, too, weren’t there? A. They were called in. After all this brick and bottle throwing started, they were called in; they came to our assist ance. We needed all the help we could get. Q. Did you call them? A. I did. I summonsed the radio and told them to come to that area. Q. Now you spoke about Mr. Salter and Reverend King, you saw them leaning out the windows? A. That is correct. Q. Were there other people leaning out windows? A. I recall one other person that I know leaning out the window, I say leaning out the window; he was standing in the J . L . R a y , C r . 1589 . window . Q. Were there people who were not on the street but up stairs watching what was going on? A. Yes, until the rock and bottle throwing started, then all disappeared except those three that I saw. Q. But there had been other people who were just stand- ing ther e watching because there was apparently something to watch? . . A. That is correct, there was some people watching. Q. Wa s it noisy? A. Noisy, very noisy • Q. So you don’t know what anybody was saying really, do you, tho s e p eopie who were upstairs? A. No , I do not, I can’t quote as to what they were say- ing upstairs, I do not know because this group downstairs was very noi sy. Q. Now, there were a number of peopie in that procession that were from out of town? A. That is correct. Q. And a number who hadn’t been in Jackson previously during the week? A. I can’t answer that. Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, that there were a number of strangers from out of town in that funeral proces sion? J . L . Ray, C r . 1590 . A . I do know that. Q. Now, on May the 30th, which is when the group was on the steps of this building, the Post Office building, did you make any arrests of the crowd that was standing around watching them? A . I did not . Q. This is the crowd that was threatening the group that was'standing on the steps. A. I did not arrest them. After I determined the cause of the trouble, I tried to remove that cause and after the cause was removed, it was very peaceful again. Q. And you determined that the people who were standing on the steps were causing the trouble? A. It proved that way, yes. Q. Let me ask you this. On these arrests that you made, that you testified to, about — for parading without a permit, on each occasion you asked the group to stop and then you — A. Well — Q. Will you let me finish my question? A. Pardon me. Q. — You asked the group to stop. You told them that if they wished to disband they could at that point, and then the ones who remained were arrested for parading without a per mit, and those who chose to go when yai said so were not arrested for parading without a permit. Is that essentially it? J . L . Ray, C r . 1591. A. The only group that I asked to stop was the group on Pascagoula Street that had run wild and was going back and forth, and so forth. The other groups, they had to stop because of the skirmish line. Then I would inquire in an informative way if any of the group had a permit to parade, informing them that it was a violation of the law to parade without a permit. Then, I would tell those who would disperse and move on peace fully that they would be allowed to do so, but those who re mained would be arrested for parading without a permit. Q. And the ones who had been parading but had chose to disperse were not arrested for parading without a permit? A. That’s correct. It is not the desire of a police officer to arrest anybody and if they realize that they are in violation of the law, I did allow them to go. Q. But those who dispersed were not arrested for parading without a permit? A. Those who stood there and wilfully defied law and order they were arrested. Q. Now you didn’t answer my question, Captain Ray. Those who dispersed were not arrested for parading without a permit ? A. That is correct . Q. They had all been in the same group A. That is correct. Q. So that they were actually arrested befo reha nd? for not dispersing? J . L . Ray, C r . 1592 . A. That is not correct. Q. Now, the incident you described at Lanier High School, that had to do with high school students? A. Yes . Q. On their campus? A. Yes . Q. Of their high school? A. Yes . Q. They were students that attended Lanier High as far as you know? A. I'don’t believe, you said the arrests at Lanier High School, I don’t believe — Q. Well, the incident, as to the incident at Lanier High School, it involved high school students? A. That is correct. Q. On their campus? A. That is correct. Q. And Lanier High School is a Negro high school, is it not ? A. That is correct. Q. Now, of the 1,092 arrests, how many did you make or wi t n e s s , do you know? A. How many did I make, — I don’t have that information, I would say more than half of them though. Q. Now, if you characterize that as demonstration cases J . L . Ray, C r . 1593 . that is your own analysis of it, these 1,092 arrests? A. The 1,092 that were arrested were arrested for vio lating the law, such as abusive language, disturbing the peace, trespassing, just numerous different laws; distributing hand bills without a permit, contributing to the delinquency of a minor and most anything that you can mention. They were, «*— most of them were very disorderly groups. Q. But I was trying to get you to clear it up, which you have for me. Now, on May the 29th, did you make any arrests of people who were picketing? A. I have never arrested anybody for picketing. Q. Well, did you make any arrests of people who had attempted to walk up and down in front of business establish ments on Capitol Street? A. On May the 29th, on the north side of Capitol Street, about 12:30, I arrested six for obstructing the sidewalk. Q. And they were on the sidewalk when you got there? A. Yes, they were on the sidewalk. Q. Did they have any time to walk before you got there? A. Certainly, they were walking. Q. And they had walked up and down in front of the store or an establishment? A. They were in front of the F. W. Woolworth Company. Q. Had you observed them walking? A. Yes, I had J . L. Ray, 1594 . Q. And they were walking a distance apart of three to four feet? A. Yes, they were three or four feet, and they had plac ards about twenty-four inches in width. Q. And they were walking and returning, weren’t they? In other words, they weren’t just walking up the street, they go a certain distance and then turn — A. They would make a turn in front of people and block the normal use of the sidewalk. That’s why they were arrested. Q. They were walking on that portion of the sidewalk near the curb? A. No, this group did not. They made turns and it was a very congested area at that time. This was during the trouble, I believe, in Woolworth’s, — no, that was the day before. That was the day before. Q. And six of them were arrested for blocking, for — A. Obstructing the sidewalk, correct. THE COURT : you Captain, what would/say was the most congested busi ness block in the City of Jackson? THE WITNESS: Your Honor, that is what we refer to as the long block, that is the block beteeen Farish and Lamar Streets; in the block where F. W. Woolworth Company is. C r . THE COURT: J . L Ray, Cr. 1595 . Is that just on the south side of the street, north side of the street? THE WITNESS: There is more activity on the north side than there is on the south side, but both sides of that particular block are the most used portion.of Capitol Street. THE COURT: Is that the heaviest pedestrian traffic? THE WITNESS: Yes sir . MRS. MORRIS: Q. Did you make any arrests for restraint of trade? A. I arrested Medgar Evers and Roy Wilkins and Wilcher for Section 1088; that does deal with — Q. That’s restraining trade? A. That’s right. Q. And they were attempting to walk on Capitol Street at that time, were they not? A. They had signs interfering with; such as ’’Don’t buy on Capitol Street,” interfering with trade, yes. Q. And they were on the sidewalk not quite a minute before they were arrested? A. They walked from Farish and Capitol to below Shain- berg’s; I would estimate at least, — I imagine that is 75 feet. Q. How many stores does that cover, how many businesses J . L. Ray, Cr> 1596 . are there? A. Well, there’s one, two, three, they were in front of the fourth store. Q. In front of the fourth store? A. That’s correct. By the way, they had passed out pam phlets concerning this, too, which came to my attention. Q. Did you know that at the time you arrested them? A. Did I know of those pamphlets? Q. At the time you arrested them? A. Yes, I knew that it was a program that was in effect, yes, I did know that. Q. Did you know that — you said they had passed out pam phlets, you mean Medgar Evers and Roy Wilkins and this third perso n? A. Q. A. Q. A. officers Q. June the I can’t, — their organization the NAACP . That is three individuals? I have never seen any of those three individuals, no. They were just walking when you arrested them? That’s correct. Of course, as you know, they are in that organization. I am aware of that. Now, did you make any arrests on 3rd for parading without a permit? A. I did. Q. Did you arrest a group of six individuals on that day? J . L . Ray, Cr. 1597 . A. That is correct. Q. And charged them with parading without a permit? A. That is correct. Q. Did you make any arrests on June 4th of a group at the City Hall? A . I did . Q. And what did you charge them with? A. Breach of the peace. Q. On the 29th, Captain Ray, did you arrest some persons for displaying placards without a permit? A. Yes, I did. Q. How many were arrested on that day? A. I don’t recall, but there were some arrested for dis playing a placard without a permit. We have a new — Q. You are using your notes there, do your notes reflect that? A. It shows a group arrested on June 29/th; a group arrested at — Q. May the 29th. A. May the 29th, arrested at J. C. Penney’s, in front of J. C. Penney’s, displaying placards without a permit. Q. Does it say that there was a group of four arrested on that occasion? A. Four arrested, correct. Would you like for me to say anything about that? J • L . Ray, C r . 1598 . Q. No, I’d just like for you to answer my questions, Captain Ray. On June 5th did you make an arrest of nine per sons and charge them for parading without a permit? A. June 5th? Q. Uh huh. A. I did. Q. And on June 7th, you arrested ten persons and charged them with parading without a permit? A. June the 7th? Q. No, — yes, June the 7th. A. Yes, I arrested five. Q. Five, and charged them with parading without a permit? A . Yes. Q. Were the five together? A . Yes. Q. Do you remember what kind of handbills were being passed out when somebody was arrested for passing out handbills? I think you arrested somebody on the 18th of July. A. I don’t know. Q. You didn’t make the arrest on the 18th of July? A. I don’t have any information on the 18th of July. Q. Did you make any arrests for passing out handbills? A. I did not. I recall some being arrested for that. Q. I just want you to tell me what you have participated in. Now, that 1,092 people that you arrested, did you include J . L . Ray, C r . 1599 . all those arrests that were made on the 15th of June in that t otal? A. I did. Q. Did you include all those that were made at Lanier High School? A . Yes . Q. So you included any number of arrests that were made for parading without a permit and for protest demonstrations? A. That is correct. Q. And you donTt know of your own knowledge which -- A. You mentioned the arrests. None of them were charged with that. They were charged with particular violations, such as I have mentioned. Q. When you testified, Captain Ray, you stated that you made 1,092 arrests for demonstrating, is that right? A. The Police Department. Q. I am trying to determine how you determined that they were demonstration cases since you stated that it included any number of offenses during a certain period of time, so this is what you decided were demonstration cases. A. Most of them developed from churches and the NAACP Headquarters and such as that. That’s the reason — Q. I am aware of that, but there were others included — _ That’s the reason; they determined them as demonstra tions, even though it is a violation of the law. That’s the J . L . Ray, C r . 1600 . reason I mentioned that. It developed from these workshops and so forth that had developed in these different places, sponsored by NAACP, CORE, SNCC, and other organizations. Q. There were some arrests that were made that did not emanate from a church or from the Masonic Temple, they were just people downtown, right? A . Yes. Q. Now, you don’t know how they got downtown on a number of occasions? A. I don’t know how they got downtown? Q. Yes. A. No, I don’t know how they all got downtown. Q.. Therefore, these are what you decided were demonstra- 'V,tionficases, right? You have made this conclusion yourself? A. I am familiar with Detective Black who attended all these meetings and from the information that I got from his reports, they were continuously saying what they were going to do in these meetings, and it worked out like they would say. Q. Some of these arrests were not related to things that were mentioned during meetings so, therefore, you decided what you meant by demonstration cases, right? A. Well, let me say this, too. Most of these people after their arrest were interviewed. They would tell of attending workshops who were conducted by different ones. Q. I don’t doubt that for one minute, Captain Ray J . L . Ray, C r . 1601 . my question is ~ A. I am trying to answer your question. Q. But you are not. A. Well, what was your question? Q. My question was that when you testified that 1,092 arrests were made in demonstration cases, you have concluded that these were demonstration casesj as based on your own analysis of the matter? A. My conclusion is that they developed from these different organizations and workshops. Q. And it was your conclusion? A. After interviewing these people that were arrested, yes. Q. Do you have a breakdown of those 1,092 cases? A. I do not. Q. On any occasion other than the one we talked about, which was May the 3lst, did the City of Jackson use garbage trucks to transport people they had arrested? A. I recall no other time that we used garbage trucks. That was the largest group that was arrested, 322. Q. Then you are not in a position to say that they were not used on other occasions? A. Any other arrests that I personally made, they were not used. Q. But you don’t know whether they were used for the J . L. Ray, Cr 1602 . arrest of other persons during the summer? A. I know of no other time they were used. MRS. MORRIS: That’s all, Your Honor. MR. NICHOLS: We have no further questions of this witness, Your Honor . We will call Mr. Cliff Bingham. MRS. MORRIS: Y0ur Honor, we are going to object to this witness. We were advised to exchange lists of witnesses before the case started and I think about three days ago I was served with a subsequent list which included any number of witnesses that were not included in the first list. I don’t know any reason for this. We were compelled to put ours on all together. MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, in the original notice that we gave, we stated that in the event the testimony is developed in chief by the Plaintiff, if it developed that we needed to call additional witnesses to rebut that testimony, we reserved the right to do it. At the conclusion of the session we had previously, Mr. Watkins advised the Court and counsel for the Plaintiffs that it would be necessary for us to file an additional list of witnesses, which we did. MRS. MORRIS: 1603 . If the Court please, I don’t think that changes the nature of the requirement. The Plaintiffs were required to get their entire list in early. There were certain number of days allowed within which time Defendants were supposed to respond to that list, within the framework of the witnesses on that list, and what it was indicated that they would testify to, so it was no surprise to Defendants after our list came out. But this new group, this is a surprise to us. THE COURT: How many witnesses are on the new group? MR. NICHOLS: There are five, but I believe there will be only two that we will use, Your Honor. I might say that we didn’t know, I believe that is right, too, we did not know exactly what the nature of this proof was going to be that they put on in chief, and it was in the course of them putting this testimony on that we realized that these witnesses would throw some light on this case. THE COURT: Well, I believe that I’ll let him use that. I think that this other witness, — I believe we had some discussion about:'.that in the library and we just have to adjust these rules as we go along. I will accord you the same privilege though if this witness’ testimony affords you any surprise, I’ll let you offer testimony by a witness whose name you have suggested C. Bingham, Dir. 1604. and that’s about the only way I can figure to make proper use of it . MR. CLIFF BINGHAM called as a witness for the Defendants, and after having been duly sworn, testified as follows: MR . TRAVIS: Q. Would you state your name, age and address please? A. I am Cliff Bingham, 50 years old, and I live at 4746 McRaven Road, Jackson. Q. By whom are you employed? A. I am employed by the Lamar Broadcasting Company. Q. And that is a, — - what is your — A. That is WLBT and WJDX. Q. Radio and TV? A. Radio and TV. Q. And what is your employment? A. I am a reporter and photographer. Q. And how long have you been a reporter and photographer? A. For them, ten years. Q. And what was your experience before that time? A. I worked ten years for the Clarion Ledger as a photo grapher . Q. All right, sir. Than you have been a newspaperman, and TV reporter and cameraman for — A. Approximately twenty years. C. Bingham, Dir 1605 . Q. Did you have occasion to cover certain assignments during the past summer here in the City of Jackson, and I invite your attention particularly to May 28th to an incident that happened over at Woolworth*s here in the City of Jackson on Captiol Street? A. Yes, I did. Q. You did cover that story? A. Yes. Q. If you would, would you tell the Court what the occa sion was, your being there, how you came to be there and what you observed? A. We received word that there was going to be some sort of demonstration at Woolworth’s and I went down there and shortly after I got there three people came in, sat at the lunch counter and the lunch counter was then closed. They remained seated there for, oh I guess, an hour or more, and — Q. What was going on during this period of time? A. Well, there was very little going on. There were a lot of people coming in and out and at one point a man came in and there were, I believe, two girls and a boy seated at the counter. I*m not quite clear on that, but I think there were two, there has been so many. The man grabbed the boy off the stool and threw him on the floor. The manager went outside and called the police in and they arrested this man. Q. Did the police act promptly upon being called by the C. Bingham, Dir. 1606. manager? A. As soon as the manager got out front and called them in, they came right in. Q. And what did the police do then? A. They arrested the man who had taken the man off the counter and they took both of them to Headquarters. Q. Now, did you hear any conversation between the manager and the police? A . I did not . Q. Did you observe anything else there on that occasion? A. I did not. Q. Directing your attention to Rose and Deer Park Street on June 13th, I believe, did you have occasion to cover that a ssi-gnment ? A. I did. Q. And that was the occasion, were you there? A. I was there. Q. Were you thbre in your line of work, covering the story? A . I was. Q. Just how did you come to be there? A. Well, the same way that we were at Woolworth's. We had information that there was to be some sort of demonstration. There was a meeting at this church on Pearl Street of a group of people and we understood that from that meeting there would C. Bingham, Dir. 1607 . be a group to try to march downtown and I was out there to see and observe and take pictures of what happened. Q. If you would, would you tell the Court what you did observe? A. Well, a group of people, I do not know how many, there must have been anywhere from twelve to twenty came out of there, marched down Rose Street-- north, I guess — Q. What part of Rose Street were you in? A. From Pearl Street to Deer Park Street. Q. You said they marched down the street? A . Yes . Q. Are there sidewalks on either side of Rose Street at this area? A. I think there is. Q. And were they on the sidewalk? A. Some were on the sidewalk and some were in the street. Q. Were they blocking the street? A. Well, those that were in the street were blocking the street and cars were having difficulty getting through there. Q. All right, sir, would you tell the Court .just what happened then? A. The police stopped them in front of Hart*s Bakery, which is down there almost at the corner of Deer Park Street and the police went down the line of people, took the flag each, — I think, — Itm sure that each one of them had a flag, most C. Bingham, Dir. 1608. of them had a flag anyway. He took the flag out of their hands and told them that they were under arrest. These people offered no objections and said nothing, the only disturbance was caused by others on the< out side „ Q. Now, did you see them arrested and moved out in vehicles after they had been arrested? A . Yes . Q. Did you have them under observation all this period of time? A . Yes . Q. Could you tell the Court whether or not, insofar as those that were in the street are concerned, whether or not you saw a policeman at any time strike or push any of the persons that were in the street with a night stick? A. He did not, they offered no resistance whatever and he just took the flags and went right down the line taking the flags out of their hands, and that was all there was to that. Q. And, insofar as the flags were concerned, you did see all of this, there was none of it that you missed seeing? A. No, I was there. Q. All right. Now, did you see any of the police at any time tear any of these flags? A . Oh no . Q. You did not? A. No . C. Bingham, Dir. 1609. Q. Now, did anything else happen out there on this occa sion, Mr. Bingham? A. A group of people on the front porch of the first house, between Deer Park and Pearl Street, there was a large group of people on this porch that started yelling and screaming and shouting, making a general disturbance, and Chief Ray walked up the sidewalk and stopped in front of the house and told these people, oh three or four times, he didn’t just stop with one time, he told them at least three times to my knowledge, that they were going to have to cut out all the racket, that they were causing a disturbance. They got worse, got louder and a little more shouting with their language and using some language that could be called abusive. Q. Would you call it abusive? A. I would. Q. Did you recognize any of these persons who were on the steps and making all this ruckus? A. I recognized two. Q. Who were these persons that you did recognize? A. John Salter and Ed King. Q. And who are they? A. They were two professors at the time at Tougaloo College . Q. All right, sir. Now, if you would, tell the Court just exactly what happened from that point on. You said that C. Bingham, Dir. 1610 . Captain Ray had asked them a number of times to be quiet and that they — A. They actually got louder and then, through the bull horn, Chief Ray said, "You are all under arrest," and at that point they broke and ran. The police went in to arrest them, Salter resisted and tried to swing at a policeman and that’s when the policeman hit him in the head with a night stick and knocked him down on the ground. Q. All right, sir. Now, just what did Salter do, what did you see Salter do? A. Well, the policeman ran up on the porch and tried to get hold of him and when he did, Salter swung back at him. When he did that, the policeman hit him. Q. Had the police officer made any act other than to just place his hands on him to arrest him? A . That’ s all. Q. And, it was at this point that Salter did what? A. He swung at him, he swung his arm back as if to hit him and when he did the policeman hit him. Q. All right. What happened then after this? A. Well, they took Salter to the paddy wagon and they arrested some woman, I don’t know who she was. I understood that she was Ed King’s wife, that is what I was told at the scene . Q. Did you see all of this, now? C. Bingham, Dir. 1611. A . I did . Q. Now, you say that King was there too. A. King was there. He disappeared, I don’t know where he got off to. Q. Was he at any time struck in any way? A. No, because when the policemen went toward the porch to arrest some of the people that they could get hold of, King went back in the house or went around the house, I’m not sure which. I think he went back in the house because he came out on the porch after it was all over. I don’t think King was arrested at that time. Q. All right. Now, in regards to Salter, you say you saw him struck one time? A . That’s right. Q. Was that it? A. That’s it. I saw this one strike and it opened a place on his head and made him bleed. Q. All right, and how would you describe that, the place on his head? A. Well, it was a very superficial cut. I saw him later, I didn’t know how bad he was hurt at the time, but later I saw him and it was a very small cut. Q. And you had all of this under observation all of the time and that’s all that happened? A. I was on the sidewalk and it was only about ten to C, Bingham, Dir. 1612. twelve feet to the porch of Q. Did you see any po June the 13th, either in the force that was not necessary A , I di d not . Q. How did the police under the circumstances? A. It just so happens are under and that is to *•- this house. lice officer on this occasion, street or on these steps use any or unreasonable? on this occasion conduct themselves that I know the orders the police MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, I am going to object to this. THE COURT : On what grounds? MRS. MORRIS: He is testifying he knows the orders that the police are under and I don’t think that is relevant here. He is supposed to be testifying as to what he observed as his own knowledge . THE COURT: I don’t believe it is resjioJisive, you can ask him the question over again. MR. TRAVIS: Q. Mr. Bingham, did you see any police officer of the City of Jackson use any more force than was necessary? A. I did not. C. Bingham, Dir. 1613. MRS. MORRIS: I object to the form of that because it is leading. THE COURT: Overruled, go ahead. MR. TRAVIS: Q. Now, in regards to June the 15th, did you have occa sion to cover, — have an assignment on that day, involving some more of these A . I did . Q. And where was that, Mr. Bingham? A. On Farish Street. Q. Do you recall what time of day this was? A. I’d say it was around 3:00 o’clock, I am not sure of the time. Q. What happened on this occasion? A. Do you want me to start at the beginning and tell you what preceded — Q. What I’m interested in is any disturbance on this o cca sion. A. Oh, well, that was after the funeral of Medgar Evers and after the crowd had marched from out on Lynch Street all the way down Farish Street to the funeral home, a large group of people broke away and came back toward Capitol Street. I had gone to the station and when I heard the, — got the word that they were coming back towards Capitol Street, up the street, C. Bingham, Dir. 1614 . I circled around by the State Office Building and came up in back of them. I parked in front of Ferguson Furniture Company, got up on top of my car, and there were a hundred or so people gathered all around me shouting and screaming. The police had gathered near Capitol Street. Chief Ray came down the street with the police in back of him waiting, they didn*t move in. He came down with a bullhorn and asked them to please disperse, to go on back to their homes, and not cause any more trouble, or words to that effect. They ignored him and kept shouting and the police gradually, slowly, moved down Farish Street and got down to Amite Street. By that time the crowd had moved back half way between Amite Street and Griffith Street. All this time, I was in between, or among the group that was shouting and calling out. The police moved slowly in, all the way across the street abreast of each other. A large group of police. At that point, when they got between Griffith and Amite Street, the crowd started throwing bottles and bricks and anything else it seemed that they pould get their hands on. The police kept moving rather slowly on in. The crowd moved back as the police moved in and the police never got closer to the crowd than, I would say, seventy-five feet, possibly a hundred feet, because they were throwing bricks, and bottles and it was dangerous to be out in the street. Somewhere at this point, John Boar of the Justice C. Bingham, Dir. 1615. Department came down the street, walked towards the crowd throwing the bottles; he had to dodge bottles and bricks too, because I was observing him as he went along, and he finally made it into the crowd and stopped the bottle throwing and the bricks, and then shortly after that ~ Q. Let me ask you this. Did you recognize any of these people that were in this crowd that was throwing these bricks? A. No, I did not. While John Doar was talking to the group, another group came down the street towards them from the police lines. One of them that I knew was Jack Young, a local attorney, and three or four other people that I did not know. Q. Now, how would you describe the conduct of the police of the City of Jackson under these circumstances? MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, I object to that. He can ask him what the police were doing, but what somebody’s conduct was requires a conclusion. MR. TRAVIS: Let me withdraw — THE COURT: Yes, I’ll let you rephrase it. MR. TRAVIS: Q. Did you see any police use any type of, was there any type of contact between the police and this crowd? MRS MORRIS: C. Bingham, Dir. 1616. That’s objectionable because it is leading. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I did not . MR. TRAVIS: Q. All right, sir. Were there any policemen injured on this occasion, or do you know? A. Yes, there were. Q. How many of them were injured? A. I don’t know, I saw two that were injured. Q. And what type of injury did these policemen have that you saw that were injured? A. They were only slightly injured, but they were hit in the head, one of them was hit in the head with a brick and the other one was hit on the leg with a broken bottle. MR. TRAVIS: Thank you. Your witness. CROSS EXAMINATION MRS. MORRIS: Q. Mr. Bingham, were you in Woolworth’s or outside of Woolworth’s on the day you were talking about? A . I was inside. Q. You were inside at all times? A. Yes C. Bingham, Cr. 1617 . Q. And there were three people at the counter? A . That’ s right. Q, Tĥ r stayed there about an hour? A . That’s right. Q. And during the time that they were there, there was a large crowd gathered around there, was there not? A . Yes . Q« And was this inside Woolworth’s? A. There were crowds coming and going all that time. Q. There was a large crowd that stayed fairly stationary in terms of number, whereas it might not have been the same people . A. Yes, there was a crowd of people, there wasn’t a large crowd I’d say. Q. And some of the group that were standing around were throwing things on the counter, at the people who were sitting at the counter? A. No . Q. Nobody in the crowd threw anything like catsup or mustard at anybody who was seated? A, No . Q. You didn’t see that? A. Not while I was there. Q. How long were you there? A. I was there about — I guess I was there an hour and C. Bingham, C r . 1618. a half or two hours. Q. And do you know how long the people were there? A . No, I don’t . Q, And you were observing everything closely? A . Yes . Q. And you never saw anybody throw anything at these people? A . I did not . THE COURT : Are you making a distinction between what somebody threw .and what somebody poured on somebody? THE WITNESS: No sir, I didn’t see any of that, Judge. THE COURT: You didn’t see any catsup poured on somebody? THE WITNESS: No sir, I can explain why if you would like me to. THE COURT: That’s all right. MRS. MORRIS: Q. The only thing you saw was somebody pulled off the stool? A. That’s right. Nothing was thrown at anybody while I was in there. Q. Were you able to observe during the time you were in C. Bingham, Cr. 1619. there? A . Yes. Q. You just stood there and watched them? A. Yes, I was right there. Q. These people who were sitting at the counter, were they Negroes? A . Yes . Q. Now, during the hour and a half, did you say it was? A. Approximately, I donTt know, it was a good long time, standing around doing nothing, it was a good long time. Q. During this time did any other people come to that count er? A . No . Q. Just these three? A. No one else sat down. Q. Now, on June 13th when you were at or near the Pearl Street Church, where were you standing at this time? A. Well, I was all over the area. I had to move around quite a bit. I was on Pearl Street for awhile and then I was on Rose Street for awhile. Q. Now, when the group left the church, where were you? A. I was on Rose Street. Q. You were there when they left? A. Yes . Q. And when they got to Rose Street you were already there? C . Bingham, C r . 1620 . A . Yes. Q. And where were you standing? A„ Somewhere between Rose and Deer Park Street. Q. Were you standing on the sidewalk, on the curb — A. Yes, I was standing on the sidewalk. Q. On the sidewalk. Now, how far from this porch that you described were you standing? A. Well, that was almost a block away. Q. So you were not near it originally? A. Not originally. The people weren’t near it originally either, they were at the church and when they left the _ you asked when they left the church. I was at _ Q. ITm talking about the people who were in this protest procession. A. Well they were in, — - the group that was on the porch was a different group than the ones that were under arrest. Q. I am aware of that, but I asked you when the people went to the Pearl Street Church where you were, the people in the protest processionVwith flags? A. I was on Rose Street. what — Q. On Rose Street, on the corner of the intersection near A, No, between Pearl and Deer Park. Q. And you watched the group coming down toward you? A . Yes . C. Bingham, Cr 1 621 . Q. How much time did you spend out on the street on the 13th of June? A. I had been there all the morning. I don’t know what exact time this took place, it was right around noon though I think. Q. Well, these incidents that you described, how long did they take? A. The incidents that I have described here? How long did they take? Q. Yes . A. I guess altogether about twenty or thirty minutes as far as I can remember. Q. Now, during this time you were moving around in the Rose Street area? A. Well, after the, —— when the arrests were made, I did not move around too much, I stayed in one area. Q. How many people were arrested, do you know? A. No, I don’t.. Q. Were there a large group? A. Fairly large group. Q. And you saw each one of them arrested? A. Well, he told them they were all under arrest and I don’t know whether he arrested each one individually or not, I do not know that. Q. But you saw the policemen go down the line and talk C. Bingham, C r . 1622 . to each individual — A . I did. Q. Now, were these people taken away from the scene? A. Yes, finally. It was a little while before they were taken away. Q. Now, the people who were on the porch, were they also arrested and taken away? A. I only saw possibly two or three people arrested from the porch. Q. Were they taken away with the people who had been in the procession? A. Yes. Well, I think they had already been taken away, but, by that time, they had been loaded into a van and taken away . going were group Q. So that during the time tiiis p-orch incident was on, the people who had been in the procession with flags still in the area? A. Well, I’m not quite sure of that. Q. Were there other people in the area, other than the on the porch and the group who were in the procession? A. Yes, there were people — Q. Who were standing around? A. There were a number — - Q, A number of people standing around? A, A number of people standing around. C . Bingham, C r . 1623 . Q. A lot of people in the area? A. That’s right. Q. A lot of people milling back and forth on porches and on lawns? A. I only saw people on two different porches, milling about and out in the yard. Q. So you only saw people on two porches in that whole area? A. No, I don’t say in the whole area — where I was, in the area where I was. Q. Well, in other areas on Rose Street adjacent A. Well, there were a lot of people in the street and so I don’t know. Q. On Rose Street adjacent to the people who had been in this protest procession, there were people who were observers on the lawns and on the sidewalk, lots of people in the area who were not involved in walking, just observers? A. As I said, I only saw people on two different porches and in two yards. Q. Well, then there might have been people there that you didn’t see? A. That’s true. Q. There was a lot of confusion during that time, wasn’t there, Mr. Bingham? ̂ wasn’t a great deal of confusion except that C. Bingham, C r . 1624 . caused by these people on the porch. Q. Is that your opinion? A. That is a fact. Q. That’s how you would describe a fact? A. I was there and I know what is a fact and what isn’t a fact. The only disturbance caused was by the people, -- the people that were under arrest were causing no disturbance. Q. The only confusion you saw was caused this way. A. How is that again, now? Q. The confusion that you saw was caused by this group of people on the porch? A . That is right. Q. You didn’t see anybody else in the area causing any? A. I did not. Q.. But there could have been other people in the area, you have admitted that? A. There could have been other people in the area, yes. Q. And there could have been confusion in other parts of Rose Street? A. There could have been a lot of confusion on Lynch Street, but I wasn’t around there. Q. But on Rose Street where you were, there could have been confusion in other areas where you could not see it? A. I don’t know, I wasn’t there. I can only tell you about the confusion I saw. C. Bingham, Cr. 1625 . Q. Precisely. Then we agree that there could have been other things going on, you are not in a position to say that was the only confusion going on on Rose Street, are you? A. No. Rose Street is about a couple of miles long. Q. You are not in a position to say that was the only confusion on Rose Street in the area of the demonstrations? A. No, I am not. How did you come to know who John Salter and Reverend King were? A. I had known them from other occasions. Q. From what other occasions? A. Well, I dontt know. They had been in other demonstra tions around Jackson and I got to know who they were. Q. During the summer, or did you know who they were before that summer? A. I’m not sure whether I knew them before that summer or not. I think I knew Ed King, but I didn’t know John Salter. Q. And you knew them through demonstrations of civil rights activity? A. Yes. Q. Are you a native of Jackson, Mr. Bingham? A . I am not . Q. How long have you been in Jackson? A. Since 1932.■ Q. And you still live in Jackson? C . Bingham, C r . 1626 . A. I still do. Q. Now, on the 15th, you said you got word that a large group of people had broken away from the area of the funeral home and they were heading toward Capitol Street. A . That’ s right. Q. And you went around behind them to find out what was happening? A . That’s right. Q. So you don’t know, of your own knowledge, how this whole business started? A. No . Q. You got into it after it started? A . That’s right. Q. And during this period the policemen were walking from Capitol Street down Farish Street moving the crowd back? A. That’s right. Q. Were you in the crowd that was being pushed back? A. Yes. Q. And how large was that crowd? A. I was on top of my car and, of course, I wasn’t being moved because my car was stationary and I stayed with it. Q. Where was your car? A. In front of the Ferguson Furniture Company right at the corner of Amite Street and Farisn Street. Q. How far is that from Capitol? C. Bingham, Cr. 1627 . A. A block • Q. And how far was » the crowd pushed back beyond your car? A. To Griffith Stre et. Q. So that in the beginning you were looking a block toward Capitol ,Street? A. That’ s right . * Q. And then you were looking a block or two in the ot:her dir e ction? A. That’ s right . Q. So that during this time the crowd and the police were somewhat removed from where you were since you were stationary, you were not moving with the group? A. Well, the police stopped where I was. They didn’t get much further than that. Q. It was coming toward you then? A. That’s right and when they got to just past the inter section of Amite and Farish Street they stopped. That’s where all the police stopped. The crowd was then almost to Griffith Street and that is about as close as they ever got to one another . Q. Now, during this period there was confusion in this area, I take it, with people being moved by the policemen? A. I wouldn’t say there was any confusion as far as the jpolice were concerned. Theycweren’t making a sound and they lowly. They never did --were moving very s C . Bingham, C r . 1628 . Q. And the crowd was also quiet? A. No, the crowd was not quiet. Q. Were they moving slowly? A. In some instances they were and in some they weren’t. Q. They were moving in an orderly fashion down the street? A. Not orderly. Q. Then there was confusion? A. Well, if you want to call moving about all over the street orderly, not, — that’s what they were doing. Q. No, I will accept your definition, they were moving about all over the street. A. Well, there was confusion. If you want to say that the way they were moving about, there was considerable con fusion. They were yelling and screaming and then they got to throwing bottles and bricks and I would call that confusion. Q. I think I would too. How long did you watch this thing that you describe? A. The whole time that it took place. I don’t know how long that was, I do not know. Q. Did you see any arrests made? A. No, I didn’t . MRS. MORRIS: I have no further questions. REDIRECT EXAMINATION MR..TRAVIS: C. Bingham, Redir. 1629. Q. Mr. Bingham, where were you when this catsup, on the 2 8th of May, where were you when this catsup and mustard epi sode happened? A. I was at home. Q. That was before you got there, or after you left? A. That was after I left. Q. Now, on the 13th on this porch, did you see King thrust or struck in any way by any member of the Police Depart ment, or anybody else? A. I certainly did not. Q. Was he? A. No . Q. Now, where are you from originally? A. Newton. Q. Mississippi? A . That1s right. MR. TRAVIS: That1 s all. We would like to call Mr. W. C. Shoemaker. MRS. MORRIS: If the Court please before you — Mr. Travis, I have the same objection with reference to this witness that we made for the last one. THE COURT: I will make the same ruling and grant you the right which I indicated to call any additional witness to respond to W. C. Shoemaker, Dr. 1630. this testimony. MR. W. C. SHOEMAKER called as a witness for the Defendants, and after having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION MR. TRAVIS: Q. Would you state your name, pleas e sir, age and your addr ess? A. W. C. Sho emaker, I»m 3 2, and I 1ive at 232 Mane:hest e in Ja ckson . Q. By whom are you employed? A. The Jackson Daily News. Q. How 1ong have you been employed by the J ackson Daily News? A. For fourteen and one-half years, except for two year military leave during the Korean War. Q. What is your employment with the Jacks on Daily News? A. I am a reporter. Q. What type of reporting do you do generally? A. Well, almo st anything that comes along • Q. Have you been a reporter during these fourteen and a half year s? A. During most of this time, yes. Q. Here in the City of Jackson? A . Yes . W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1631. Q. IT11 ask you, Mr. Shoemaker, if you had occasion to cover an assignment on May the 28th near Woolworth’s store here in the City of Jackson? A. Yes, I did. Q. And where is that store located? A. I believe it’s in the 100 block of East Capitol Street downtown. Q* All right. What caused you to be in this area or at this store on this occasion, on May the 28th? A. I was sent there in anticipation of some sort of racial demonstration. Q. All right, sir. Had somebody given you some informa tion on it? A. Somebody had telephoned. Q. Now, What did you observe when you arrived, — what time of day was this when you got there? A. About 10:00 o*clock in the morning. Q. What did you observe, what happened while you were there? A. Well, for awhile, nothing. Several other reporters gathered around and we stood around and gossiped with each other and about 11:00 o'clock, about 11, several colored people came in and took seats at the lunch counter. Q. Now, what happened after that? A The store closed! the lunch counter and the crowd W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1632. started coming around inside and a lot of, — quite a bit of hollering; the people sitting at the counter, they just sat there, they weren’t served any food. They stayed there and just chatted back and forth with each other. People gathered around and dumped some mustard and catsup and some sugar on their heads and stuff like that. Q. All right, sir. Did you have occasion to talk to the manager of the store on this occasion? A. I spoke with him once, yes. Q. And what was the nature of your conversation with him? MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, I am going to object to conversation with the manager. This is hearsay. THE COURT : IT11 sustain the objection. MR. TRAVIS: Q. Did the manager take any action to get the police in the building during this period of time? A. None that I saw. jj. Did you make any effort to determine whether or not he was going to ask the police in to handle this crowd? A. Yes, I did. Q. What did you determine and how? A. Well, I did not determine, — the police did not enter, but I don’t know w£y, from him, I don’t know why. W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1633 . Q. Now, what did you do then? A. I stayed in the store until probably about 12:00 o’clock or a few minutes after and then I left and came back toward the office. Q. All right. Did you see any police outside that you recognized? A. Yes, I saw several out in automobiles and also on the sidewalk; Chief Ray and quite a few others. Q. Who is Chief Ray? A. Chief J . L. Ray, I believe he is with the Police Department. Q. What action was he taking, if any, at that time? A. None . Q. Do you know why? A. I know why he said. Q. What was that? MRS. MORRIS: THE COURT: Your Honor, I object to what Chief Ray said. • ■ I’ll sustain the objection. MR. TRAVIS: Q. Now, directing your attention to May 3lst, 1963, the time when some 322 persons were arrested on Farish Street here in the City of Jackson, did you observe that? A . Yes, I did . W. C.Shoemaker, Dir. 1634. Q. What time of day was this, do you recall? A. It was a little bit after 4 in the afternoon. Q. How did you come to have this assignment, how did you get that? A. Most of the news folks in Jackson were there or were aware of it from one source or another that there was going to be a demonstration on Farish Street and I was among those who were aware and went. Q. All right, sir. Did you see any official or officer of the NAACP in this group at that time? A . Yes, I did . Q. Who was that? A. Well, when the demonstration began the man who was in front of it was Willie Ludden, who has identified himself actu ally as youth worker with the NAACP. Q. Now, did you see him on that occasion? A . Yes, I did . Q. What was he doing in regard to this parade or whatever it was they were having? A. He was the first man in the line. He was the leader of the parade, really. Q. What happened? A. Well, do you mean what happened in the demonstration? Q. Yes, just where it began and what happened up to the time the arrests were made? W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1635 A. Well, it was a little bit after four and a crowd of mostly young people, student age people with Willie Ludden in front, came out of the church, the Farish Street Baptist Church, started down the sidewalk two or three abreast, toward Capitol Street about four blocks away. Some had banners, some had flags some had nothing. There was about twenty-five or thirty of them lined up and then behind them they weren’t really in rows any more, there were just great numbers. Q. Where were these people in regard to streets and side walks? A. The first ones who were lined up were on the western sidewalk. Q. That’s the one that Willie Ludden was leading? A . That’s right . Q. And what about the other group, where were they? A. They were on the sidewalk and in the street, behind that first group. Q. Were they moving all in the same direction? A. Yes, they were. Q. And which direction were they moving in? A. South . Q. That would be toward Capitol Street? A. Toward Capitol Street. Q. What did you observe then? A. Well, there was about, — at the first block below W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1636. the church, south of the church, there was a delegation of policemen lined up across the street there. Just before they came,-the crowd that Ludden was leading got to those policemen, Chief Ray went up toward the group and talked to them, I don’t know what was said, and they kept walking. Q. Did they stop walking while he was talking to them? A. No, they didn’t. Q. What happened then? A. Well, they kept walking and when they reached the line of policemen, Ludden turned his shoialder sidewise and just pushed into the crowd, — into the policemen. Then, there was a lot of singing and chanting after that. Q. Now, what happened in regard to this Ludden? Would you describe in detail exactly how he put his shoulder down and went into the police line. A. Well, he was on the sidewalk and the police were actually from one building on one side of the street to the buildings on the other side of the street. Q. Shoulder to shoulder? A. Shoulder to shoulder, had the street completely blocked. He turned his shoulder in to them kind of like, I guess maybe like a football player, and just pushed his way in there and when he did two or three police grabbed, him and whacked him across the legs with bight sticks. Q. How many times was he whacked on the legs? W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1637. A. I think I saw him hit twice. Q. Did you s ee h:im struek any place other than the legs? A. No, I d:idn»t. Q. Wa s there any more f 0rce used by the police on this o cca sion than wa s aibsolut ely necessary under the circumstances? MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, I object to the form of that question. THE COURT: I’ll let y-ou rephrase it. MR. TRAVIS: Q. You saw what happened there on this occasion with the police and this Ludden, do you have an opinion as to whether or not the police used any more force than was necessary to stop Ludden on this occasion? MRS, MORRIS: Your Honor, I object to that on the grounds that it is not only leading, but it calls for an opinion. THE COURT : Sustained. MR. TRAVIS: Now, did you see Ludden on any other occasion on that day? A. I saw him that night. Q. And this was about what time in the afternoon that this happ ened? W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1638 A. Probably 4:30 by the time this happened. Q. And where did you see him that night? A. I saw him at the Masonic Temple on Lynch Street. Q. What was going on there? A. There was a mass rally in protest of these arrests. Q. And who was sponsoring this mass rally? A. I think, — I’m not sure if they specifically were sponsoring it, it was the Jackson Movement, they call them selves. It was an organization of the NAACP and several other group s . Q. Now, you told the Court that you saw Ludden that night Under what circumstances did you see him? A. He addressed the rally. Q. What was the nature of his remarks? A. He told of being arrested and of being whipped by the police. Q. Did he evidence any signs that night, were there any visible marks on him that you could see? A. None. None that I saw. Q. None that you saw? What are the newspapers, -- the general circulation here in the City of Jackson, Mr . Shoemaker? A. The dailies are the Jackson Daily News and the Clarion Ledger published here. Weeklies are the Jackson Times, the Jackson Advocate, the Mississippi Free Press and the Northside I believe those are all published within the city.R eport er . W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1639. Q. All right. What is the Jackson Advocate? A. It is published weekly with news about Negroes. Q. Is it published by Negroes? A . Yes it is . Q. And you say this paper has a general circulation here in the City of Jackson? A. Yes, it has been published here for quite a number of years . Q. Does it express the Negro viewpoint? A. It has been recognized as such in the past, yes. Q. I hand you two copies of the Jackson Advocate, one dated Saturday, June 22nd, 1963, and the other Saturday, June 29th, 1963, and ask you if these two are representative of the Jackson Advocate? MR. BELL : Your Honor, these papers haven’t been identified as exhibits or anything else and we would generally object to them on the basis that, assuming they are being put on for tfe rea sons that they appear to be, similar testimony by the Plain tiffs was held not admissable. THE COURT: What was your question? MR. TRAVIS: I asked him if, — would you read the question back please? W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1640. THE REPORTER: I hand you two copies of the Jackson Advocate, one dated Saturday, June 22nd, 1963, and the other Saturday, June 29th, 1963, and ask you if these two are representative of the Jackson Advocate? THE COURT : I sustain the objection. MR, TRAVIS: Q. Now, can you identify those as being copies of the Jackson Advocate? A . Yes, I can. Q. They both are copies of the Jackson Advocate? A . Yes, they are. MR, TRAVIS: \ ic wculd like to offer those as an exhibit to Mr. Shoemakerts testimony at this point. MR, BELL: Same objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Do you want to state your objection specifically? MR. BELL: We can’t see what the relevance is of offering these as exhibits and it appears that the Court held similar offers by the Plaintiffs as irrelevant to the issues in the case. V. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1641. THE COURT: And you are now convinced of that, are you? MR. BELL: I m not convinced of it, no, but I’m convinced that I could object to allowing them to put in testimony that we were not allowed to put in. THE COURT: Yes, I’ll sustain the objection. I’ll let those two newspapers be marked exhibit, — what is the number? MR. WATKINS: Your Honor, will you hear me before you rule on that? THE COURT: Yes . MR. WATKINS: Those papers are not being offered to prove the truth of anything said in either one of them. They are being offered because these people have made a great show, attempt to show in this case that there are no outlets for the expression of their opinion in the City of Jackson and, therefore, that they have to get on the street and demonstrate and do what we think are unlawful acts in order to convey their opinion to other people. Now we want to show, and we think we are entitled to show, that there is a regular, the largest Negro weekly in the State of Mississippi is published here in the City of Jackson, and these two copies of it are merely being offered in evidence to show W. C. Shoemaker, Dir. 1642. that they do have an outlet for their opinion and don’t get on the streets. have to THE COURT: Yes. Well, I’ll sustain the objection to the papers themselves. That*s exactly the argument that your opponent made to offer the white newspapers in evidence. I donTt think they are evidence. You’ve got this witness on the stand and if what you say is true, ask him about it. They may be marked for identification. ' 4k (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as No. D~53.) MR. TRAVIS: Your witness. THE COURT: My ruling is that you can ask him about what you have stated, Mr. Watkins, is a fact if you want to. MR. WATKINS: We think we have already shown by him that this is a paper published in the City of Jackson by Negroes and that it reflects Negro opinion, but my thought was at least without attempting to put in one word of truth of anything that is in either paper, just to show the type of paper it is. That was the only purpose we offered it for. THE COURT: All right . CROSS EXAMINATION W. C. Shoemaker, Cr . 1643. MR. BELL: Q. Mr. Shoemaker, are you a resident of the City of J ackson? A . Yes, I am. Q. How long have you been a resident of Jackson? A. Fourteen and a half years. Q. And your race is what? A . Whit e . Q. And the name of the newspaper you work for is what? A. The Jackson Daily News. Q. Now you indicate that on May 31st when the group left the Farish Street Church and began going down the sidewalk that there was a certain group of this , — a certain part of this group that was walking in two’s and three’s on the sidewalk, is that right? A. That’s right, the first part was. Q. About how many people were in the first part? A. As best I remember, about twenty or twenty-five, maybe. Q. Now, where were you at this time when they came out of the church? A. Standing across the street, on the opposite side of Farish Street from them. q . And when they began coming out of the church and heading toward Capitol Street, did you move your position at all then, at that time? W. C. Shoemaker, Cr. 1644. A. Yes, I came down the street on the opposite side of the street from them. Q. Sort of following along with this group? A. Possibly even with them, or maybe a little ahead of them. Q. Bid you observe when the police formed their line clear across the street with the men shoulder to shoulder that you described? A. The line was there at about the same time that the demonstrators came out of the church. Q. The line was already, —— sc the police were formed across the way when Ludden led his group out of the church, is that correct? A. To the best I recall, yes. I know the line was there before they reached the line, — before they reached the point where the police lined up. They were already there, the police were already lined up. Q. Now, it is correct that Farish Street, that this demonstration was being held on, is a one-way street as far as vehicular traffic is concerned, is that correct? A. ThatTs right, yes. Q. And the one-way direction is away from Capitol Street? A . That1s right. Q. So that at the point that the police formed a line there it was not going to be possible for any further vehicles W. C. Shoemaker, C r . 1645. to get down the street toward a point where the demonstrators were coming, is that correct? A. I believe that’s right, the police did not let traffic through there. Q. Now, you indicated that the first twenty, or twenty- five or thirty were marching two or three abreast, that as the rest of the group followed from the church they were not as well lined up, is that right? A . That’s right . Q. Bid you notice subsequently that a large number of these people were arrested? A . Yes . Q. Did you notice whether any of the persons who were in two’s and three’s were arrested? A. Yes, they were. Q. You indicated that from your vantage point it seemed that Willie Ludden pushed into the line of policemen. A . That’s right „ Q. Did you hear Willie Ludden say anything to the police men before moving into their ranks? A. No, I didn’t, I was on the opposite corner. There was a street between us and I did not hear, —- Q. You would not have been able to hear them say anything to him either, is that right? A. No, I wouldn’t. W. C. Shoemaker, C r . 1646. Q. And, you indicate that after Ludden pushed into the group that the policemen surrounded him. A. Yes, he turned his shoulder into them and pushed into the policemen and was grabbed and carried away after that. Q. Well now, at what point was he struck by the police men with these night sticks? A. When he pushed into them, when he kind of, it was very much like an athlete really, I mean he turned his shoulder and kind of, was getting an extra yard into the line really. Q. Now, did you see him struck twice with the night stick? A . Yes, I did . Q. You indicated that as far as you were able to see that he had not been struck more than twice, is that right? A. I saw him struck not more than twice, across the legs below the knees. Q. But at this point the police had closed in on Ludden? A. No, this happened just when he went into the line of poli c emen . Q. Can you say as a matter of fact whether or not other policemen may have struck him at other places besides on his legs? A. I didn’t see any others. Q. But you can’t say as a matter of fact that he wasn’t struck at any other place, by others than those that you saw? W. C. Shoemaker, C r . 1647 . A. Not for sure, no. I saw them take him out of the crowd of policemen, out of the lines of policemen to a paddy wagon, but as he passed through there I didn’t see him. Q. When you saw Ludden later that evening, did you see a bandage on his head? A. I believe he had a band-aid over one eye. Q. A band-aid? A. A band-aid. Q. Was it a good sized band-aid? A. The best I recall, it was just an ordinary tan-colored band-aid . Q. So probably you couldn’t notice any marks because at least there was a band-aid that might, or might not, have been covering up some of the marks? A. There was one band-aid, yes. Q. Now, you indicated that the Baily News and Clarion Ledger are daily newspapers in Jackson. A . That’s right. Q. What is the circulation of those newspapers? A. I don’t know exactly. Q. Approximately? A. Probably 55 to 60 thousand each. Q. Now, do you happen to know what the approximate circulation of the Jackson Advocate is? A. I have no idea. V. C. Shoemaker, C r . 1648. Q. Do you have any idea who the editor of that newspaper is? A . Y e s . Q. Who is it? A. Percy Green. Q. You indicated that in your opinion the Jackson Advo cate expresses the Negro viewpoint. What is the basis for that stat ement? A. Well, he has for a great many years Q. He has for a great many years what? A. Expressed a Negro viewpoint, the viewpoint that he pro claimed to be the Negro viewpoint. Q. Are you taking his word for it then? A. I have no other person’s word to take, but his. Q. So your whole basis for saying that the Jackson Advocate is the Negro viewpoint is based on what you have understood Percy Green, the editor of that newspaper, to say is the Negro viewpoint, is that right? A. Well, he deals with the problems specific to that group of people, advertisements aimed directly at them, — Q. Would you please just answer the question? A. Well, I am trying to do that. Q. .Well, -answer my first question and then if you want explain it — my question is whether or not the basis for your statement that the Jackson Advocate expresses the Negro viewpoint W. C. Shoemaker, Cr „ 1649. is based on what you have heard Percy Green, as editor, say its viewpoint is? A. Not altogether. Q. Was that part of it? A. Part of it, yes. Q. All right, now, what is the rest of the basis? A. Well, like I started to tell you, he deals in the problems of that race, his advertisements, his news columns are aimed specifically at members of that race; he has in the past spoken at meetings at which problems concerning the Negro race were the primary subject. Q. Have you ever noted the viewpoint that Percy Green takes in these speeches or in his paper as to the problems of the Negro in civil rights? A. Yes, both in recent years and as much as ten or fif teen years ago . Q. I would like for you to refer to recent years, what his viewpoint has been?.if you know? A. I have read some of his editorials, yes. Q. In your opinion, what is the viewpoint on civil rights and the Negro question? MR. WATKINS: If it please the Court, at this point I am going to object now. Percy Greents viewpoint as an editor is best expressed and the best evidence of it is in those two exhibits W. C. Shoemaker, C r . 1650. that we offered and had marked and identified right there on — MR. BELL: We have already excluded that, but we haven’t been able to exclude the statement, Your Honor, that the Jackson Advocate expresses the Negro viewpoint, and that’s what I am trying to get at now. THE COURT : I’ll let him answer. THE WITNESS: Would you ask me again, I’m sorry -- MR. BELL: Q. Well, let me ask you this — THE COURT: Again, I’m afraid we are getting right into that area where you tried to get, as Plaintiff, -- you try to wedge your way back into that same area where the Court has denied you access . MR. BELL: Your Honor, I just want to clear up this item of — THE COURT: All right, I’ll let you clear it, go ahead. MR. BELL: Q. As a matter of fact, Mr. Shoemaker, did you know that Mr. Green is not well thou ght of in the Negro c ommunit y a nd i s thought to receive money to publish his paper from the White W. C. Shoemaker, Cr. 1651. Citizens Council and other segregation groups? A. I have heard that within the last couple of years, however, at other times I have heard that he is well thought of by some groups. Q. Well, have you heard in the last few years that he is not well /thought of and, as a matter of fact, it is thought in the Negro community that he receives money to publish his paper from the White Citizens Council and other segregation groups? MR. WATKINS: If it please the Court, we object to this as hearsay. THE COURT : I’ll sustain the objection. MR. BELL: Q. Do you know what, if any, circulation of the Jackson Advocate goes into the white community? A . No, I don’t . Q. Would you say it is small, or large? A. I don’t have any idea. Q. Then you wouldn’t know if any of the Jackson Advocate circulation is in the white community? A. I only know of one. That’s the one we get at our office. Other than that, I don’t know. MR. BELL: No further questions. MR. TRAVIS: ( B . Armstrong, Dir) 1652. That’s all. Thank you, Mr. Shoemaker. We call Chief Beavers Armstrong. MR. BEAVERS ARMSTRONG called as a witness for the Defendants, after being duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION MR. TRAVIS: Qo Would you state your name, age, and address, please? A. Beavers Armstrong, 50 years old, 1109 Palmyra Street, Jackson, Mississippi. Q. By whom are you employed? A. City of Jackson Police Department. Q. How long have you been employed by the Police Depart- mentvof the City of Jackson? A. Twenty-one years and ten months. Q. Are you a law enforcement officer? A. I am, sir. Q. Have you been a law enforcement officer during this period of time? A . I have, sir. Q. Has your twenty-one years of service been continuous? A. With the exception of the time that I was in service. Q. How long was that, Chief? A. About eleven months. Q. Do you hold any position in the Police Department of B. Armstrong, Dir. 1653. the City- of Jackson? A. I am a Deputy Chief of Police. Q. Deputy Chief of Police? A. That’s right, sir. Q. Would you tell the Court what your duties are generally as the Deputy Chief of Police? A. I am in charge of traffic and the co-ordinator of all special- events. Q. What do you mean, special events? A. Parades, football games, basketball games, activities at the fair ground and so on and so forth. Q. All right, sir. Now, did you hold this rank of Deputy Chief during the summer of 1963 and particularly during the months of May and June, 1963? A. I did, sir. Q. Chief Armstrong, directing your attention to June the 12th, were you on duty that day? A. I was, sir. Q. And did you have occasion to be in the vicinity of Lynch and Poindexter Streets? A. I was, sir. Q. Were you there in your capacity as Deputy Chief of Police of the City of Jackson? A . I was. Q. Were there other officers with you or were you alone? B. Armstrong, Dir. 1654. A. I had a detail of men with me out there. Q. Would you tell His Honor how you came to be in this Lynch and Poindexter area? First, let me ask you this. These streets, this intersection and both of these streets, do they lie in the City of Jackson, within the city limits of the City of Jackson? A. They are. Q. All right, sir. Where generally is Lynch and Poindex ter, in what part of town? A. Southwest Jackson. Lynch Street runs east and west and Poindexter runs north and south. Q. Would you describe the streets? A. Lynch Street is approximately forty-five feet wide at Lynch and Poindexter. It has a sidewalk on each side in that area. The sidewalk is approximately ten feet wide. Poindexter Street is approximately twenty-seven feet wide. On the south side of Lynch Street, on the west side, it has a sidewalk about six or possibly seven feet wide. Poindexter jaggers, when it comes out into Lynch Street it moves to the east about fifty feet and runs north approximately the same width of the street with a sidewalk on the east side. q . Now, as far as Lynch Street, Lynch Street is one of the more heavily traveled thoroughfares in the City of Jackson, is it not? A. It is, sir. B. Armstrong, Dir. 1655. Q. Now, are there sidewalks on both sides of Lynch Street? A. At Poindexter, it is sir. Q. And would you describe Lynch Street as a wide street? You have already told us how wide is was, but in comparison with the streets generally, is it a wide street? A. Well, certain areas J)f -Lynch Street, we restrict park ing in the mornings and in the afternoons so as to be able to move the amount of traffic that has to move through there. Qo. All right sir, insofar as this particular area is con cerned? A. It is in that area. Q. What was the occasion, and why, and how did you come to be in this area of town? A. I received a call over the radio at approximately 1:00 o’clock in the afternoon on June the 12th that a group of people had moved out of the Masonic Temple and moved out into the street and was marching east on Lynch Street towards the city. I imme diately went to that area and called a detail of men to meet me there . Q. All right, sir, and where did you go? A. I went to Lynch and Poindexter and stopped. Q. How many men did you have under your command there on the scene at the time, — were there any arrests made on this occa sion? A. There was. B. Armstrong, Dir. 1656. Q. At the time of the arrests, approximately how many men did you have? A. Approximately fifty-five men. Q. All right, sir. Now, what did you do when you first got to this location? A. I looked west when I got out of the car, when I first got to this location, I looked west on Lynch Street. Traffic between Poindexter and Rose Street was congested; what cars was in there was congested at that time. I saw approximately 200 people in parade formation marching toward me, beyond Rose Street, coming toward me at that time. They were out in the middle of the street. They varied anywhere from six abreast down to two abreast. They were marching down the middle of the street, had traffic tied up, — what traffic was in that area was tied up and couldn* t move . Q. All right, sir, and did these people stay in the middle of the street then as they approached you? A. They did, sir. Q. What did you then do? A. When those people approached me and the detail of men that I had there, we set up a scrimmage line; we stopped this group of people. I asked them on two different occasions did they have a permit to parade. Q. How did you go about this, Chief? A. I used a loud speaker, or a bullhorn. B. Armstrong, Dir. 1657. Q. How far could that bullhorn be heard? A. I would say approximately two blocks, maybe three. Q. Then all of this 200 people could hear everything you said on this bullhorn? A. I will say they could, sir. Q. And what did you say? A. I asked them did they have a permit to parade. Q. How many times did you ask them that? A. I asked them that on two different occasions. Q. Well, did they have a permit to parade? A. No one produced a permit to parade. Q. Let me ask you this, Ckief. In your capacity as Traf fic Superintendent of the police, are you notified in every instance in which a permit to parade is issued by the Mayor and City Council of Jackson? A . Yes sir. Q. Was a permit in fact issued on this occasion to this group or any other group to have a parade in this area of town, or anywhere else? A. No sir. Q. Now, go ahead. You told us that you asked them twice if they had a permit to parade and they didn’t have one, and what happened then, at that point? A. I asked them then to disperse and move out of the street. I’d say approximately from 50 to 55 did disperse, moved out of the street, moved back up on the sidewalk. I waited some half a minute, or a minute approximately, I asked them to disperse again, giving them ample time to get out of the street if they would. They continued to stay in the formation, the group that I arrested continued to stay in the formation out in the street. They continued to violate the law in my presence. I placed them under arrest and told my men to take them into custody. Q. All right, Chief. Now, how many persons did you arrest on this occasion? A. 146. Q. Can you tell me how many of that 146 were adults and how many were juveniles? A. There was 72 adults and there was 74 juveniles. Q. Did you have all of these persons, — how many did you say, 146 — did you have all of these 146 persons under observa tion and in your sight during the time of the arrest? A. I did, sir. Q. And could you see all of your men in the vicinity of these people who were arrested? A. I could, sir. Q. Was there any instance in which police used their clubs in any way, or night sticks? A. No sir, there was not. Q. And, did you have any difficulty with the arrests in B. Armstrong, Dir. 1658. any form, fashion, or shape? B. Armstrong, Dir, .1659, A. None whatsoever. Q. Bid you see Reverend King on that occasion, anywhere in that area? A. Q. A. and moved where they a hundred Q. At a distance. And where was he? After they were arrested, placed in the patrol wagon, out, I moved up the street approximately a block from were arrested and I did see Reverend King approximately yards back up the street. All right, sir. Now, were there any flags in this group? A. Yes sir, there were. Q. Well, did they have anything else, other than flags? A. Nothing but flags. Q. All right, sir. Now, what, if anything, did you have done in relation to these flags? A. I had my men to take the flags and we taken them to Headquarters, to the police station like we do any other thing that we confiscate when we make an arrest. They were tagged, and they are tagged, and placed at Headquarters now. Q. All right, sir, and they there tagged for identifica tion for use in any State Court action? A. That’s right, sir. q . Were any of these flags torn, or in any way mutilated, by the police officers? B. Armstrong, Dir. 1660. A. None at all, sir. Q. And you saw all these flags removed by your officers? MR. BELLs That’s a leading question, Your Honor — THE WITNESS: A . I did, sir. MR a BELL « He can answer, Your Honor, without counsel leading him like that. THE COURT: I’ll sustain the objection. MR. TRAVIS: Q. Let me ask you this, Chief Armstrong. Were you on duty on June 15th? A . I wa s . Q. Were you in your capacity as Deputy Chief of Police? A . I wa s, sir . Q. All right, sir. Now, did you become involved in your line of duty in any particular incident that happened on this day? A. I did, sir. Q. What was this, what time, and what were the circum stances generally? A. It happened on Farish Street and it was at the end of the mournful parade of the Medgar Evers funeral march. Q. All right • Now, what happened to these after the B. Armstrong, Dir. 1661. parade, — the funeral procession? A. This group of people who had followed this funeral pro cession to the funeral home up there, must have been some 3,500 or 4,000 of them approximately in that area. Shortly after we pulled the escort in there, they removed Medgar Evers* body, taken it into the funeral home, this mob went completely wild up there. Q. Now, in what manner did they go wild and where was this that you are talking about, Chief? A. Well, it started in front of the funeral home, in approximately the 400 block of Farish Street, they moved back down Farish Street towards Capitol Street, just taking the whole street as they come back down through there shouting, and push ing, and running, and hollering and carrying on, like a .bunch of wild people. Q. Where were you during this time, Chief? A. Well, at the starting of it, I was on the north end because I had led the funeral procession from the Temple to the funeral home. I got back down Farish Street as far as as Griffith Street and when this group had moved back towards the city, just two blocks from Capitol Street, I went west on Griffith Street and come around and got into Amite Street, Amite and Farish Street, and about, I would say, it was approximately two blocks of people in the street. The block was full from Capitol Street back to Farish Street shouting and hollering, B. Armstrong, Dir. 1662. throwing brick:s and bottles and so on and then from Farish Street back nearly to Griffith Street, that whole block wa s full. Q. Well, now, who were they throwing these bricks, glass bottles and so on at? A. They were throwing at the police . Q. All right, now, what precipitated or bro ught this action on that these people wer e engaged in, do you know? A. I don’t know, sir. They just went wild up there. Q. Now , what did you do then, Chief? A. Chief Ray and I,— I stayed at Amite Street and Farish Street unt il they moved the biggest part of these people back up Farish Str e et. They went back north on Farish Stre et, I moved up Fari. sh Stre et then to Griffith Street and I had a detail of men on traf f ic under my jurisdiction; I had all traffic blocked out of thi s ar ea . Chief Ray on this occasion was in charge of the detail of men down there. After they moved back up past Griffith Street, approximately 100 or 150 feet, I was in the position where I could see back up there. They were standing out in the street throwing bricks, bottles and everything else at the police where the police had their scrimmage line set up at Griffith Street. Q. All right, Chief, go ahead and tell us then what happened after that? A. A gentleman, who I later met and talked to, a Mr. John Doar— B. Armstrong, Dir. 1663. Q. B-o-a-r? A. Yes sir . — - Came up and — Q. Who was he, Chief? A. He is with the Justice Department. Q. Attorney General? A. Attorney General’s office. He came up and I did see he and Chief Ray talking together and Mr. Doar, — they were still throwing bricks and bottles toward the police. Mr. Doar and Chief Ray talked together, — that was a distance and I didn’t know anything that was said between them. Mr. Doar left then, left Chief Ray, went towards this mob of people that was throwing bricks and bottles and I don’t know what was said up there at all, but the group broke up and moved out. In the meantime, the street was littered with bricks, glass and things. I had called the Sanitary Department; they had brought a water truck down there. This water truck was under my jurisdiction because I had called him there. I told him that I wanted him to wash the street. He made an effort to wash Farish Street after the crowd had moved out of the street. We had moved all of our men out of there at that time. Chief Ray and I had discussed it. He had moved all of his men out. I had moved the biggest part of mine out of the area, still having the area blocked out with traffic men and I was going to wash the street where traffic could flow through there without getting bricks and bottles in their tires and so on; getting B. Armstrong, Dir. 1664. their car tires tore up. This truck made one, -- this water truck made one trip up through there and they started throwing at it. I was in a position where I could see. The truck came back down to where I was at. I moved this truck out of there and I was one of the last to leave that area after we had cleared all of our men out and, as you know, Farish Street is a one-way street going north; I didn’t make an effort to go north. I come back down Farish Street the wrong way. People were walking up and down the sidewalk cussing, and jeering at us -- Q. Who was this that was cussing and jeering at you? A. People on the sidewalk in Farish Street, they were cussing at us and jeering at us and telling us to get out of there and all with cuss words, and we moved out of the area. Q. Now, in your almost 22 years as a police officer, have you ever seen anything that equaled this situation? MR. BELL: Your Honor, we object. THE COURT: Overruled . THE WITNESS: A. No sir, I never have. MR. TRAVIS: Your witness. CROSS EXAMINATION B. Armstrong, C r . 1665. MRS. MORRIS: Q. Chief Armstrong, when parade permits are refused, do you know about it? A. Normally I would. Q. Do you know that a parade permit had been refused to Medgar Evers during the summer? A . I did not. Q. You didn’t know that? On this Lynch Street incident, I have forgotten the date of it — June 12th, you said you were at Lynch and Poindexter? A. That’s where I went to, yes mam. Q. How far was that from the Masonic Temple? A. It’s approximately two, you might say, three blocks. Q. Three blocks from the Masonic Temple? A. Uh huh. Q. Now, this is a Negro neighborhood, isn’t it, Lynch Street in this area? A . That’s right. Q. Now, you say you watched the arrests after you stopped the people? A . I did . Q. And your police line was across from sidewalk to side walk? A. After I arrested the people, my police line moved around out in the street and when they brought them out, theythe group B. Armstrong, Cr. 1666. taken them out and loaded them in the paddy wagon. Q u are getting ahead of me though. You did set up a line across the street? A . I di d . Q. And you set that up as soon as you saw the people coming -- A . That *s right. Q. Now, at the time that you stopped them and placed them under arrest, where were you with reference to the line that was across the street? A. Standing right side of the line. Q. Where you stood were you on the sidewalk or on the street? A. I was on the street. Q. You were on the street. Now, did you stay in that same po sition? A. I stayed in that same position until after I placed them under arrest and I was in a position so that I could see everything that went on the whole time that the activity out there at Lynch and Poindexter was going on. Q. Now, you had some 100 and some people marching -down flie street, right? A. They moved down close to — Q. Now, you say they, you mean your police or the people? A. The people moved down close to my line of men. When B. Armstrong, Cr . 1667 . I made my arrests, I told my men to take them in custody. Part of my men went up one side, part of them stayed in front, I stayed in a corner where I could see what was going on all the time. Q. So your policemen were actually surrounding the group? A. They had them in a kind of shape. Q. So that you were at one point and the police line was going up one way and then another? A. And I was in a position where I could see over the whole thing. Q. Now, did you stay stationary all during the time the arrests were being made? A . I did not. Q. You had to walk up and down -- A. I walked around so I could see what was going on. Q. So at times when you walked in one direction, you couldn’t see what was going on in the other direction -- A. I was looking towards the group at all times. Q. I know you were looking toward the group, but can you say with absolute assurance that you saw everything that went on on that street at that time? A. In that particular area where the arrest was made, I can. Q. You saw each one of them arrested^ A. I arrested the group myself. B. Armstrong, Cr. 1668. Q. I know that, but I meant each one of them taken into custody? A . I did. Q. Respite the fact that you were walking around, you are sure of this? A . I a m sure of that. Q. Is this the only arrest that you have participated in, Chief Armstrong? A . It i s not . Q. Which other ones did you participate in? A. I participated in a group of preachers on Pearl Street. Q. That was the group that the charges were later dropped against? A . That’ s right. Q. And those are the only two? A . That’s right. Q. Now, on the 15th, you had left the area of Farish Street and you went around and came up Griffith Street to see what had happened when this trouble started? A. No, I didn’t, -- I didn’t say that. I said that I was in the area of Farish Street and I followed this mob of people who had taken the street over down to Griffith Street and it was so full I went around Griffith Street, I went down Griffith Street, then turned down and then come back into Amite Street . Q. Now to go down Griffith Street and come back on Amite B. Armstrong, C r . 1669 . Street, you had to leave Farish Street? A . I did . Q. You went around in a circle? A. One block. Q. So, what was going on when this trouble started? While you were making the circle you were not in a position to see since you weren’t there. A. The trouble had started before I ever left Farish Street. I went around to try to get into the area where I could be of some assistance. Q. You were trying to get toward the front of the group then? A . That’s right. Q. And in order to do that, you had to make the circle and go around to the front of the group? A. That’s right. I didn’t get to the front of the group because they were faster than I was. The block between Farish and Capitol was full when I got to Amite. Q. So when you got back you were essentially in the same position that you were when you started? A. No, I was about half way between it. Q. I meant with reference to the crowd? A. No, it was about half as many on one end of me then as it was on the other. Q. But during this time your attention, you were B. Armstrong, C r . 1670. concentrated toward the front of the group, right? A. No, I was —— well --no, not the front of the group. I was trying to get around so that maybe I could be of some assist ance to cut part of this group off. Q. Are we talking about — A. We split the mob. Q. We, you speak of «we” — A. The Police Department split the mob. You had two block rushing in a mob, violent, shouting, and hollering, and singing. Q. Are you telling me that there were a line of police, and then people and the some more police and then people? A. I got enough police in there that I stopped about a third of them, back on the other end. They never did get in the first block. Q. Toward the rear of them? A . That’s right . Q. Of these two blocks? A. Uh huh. Q. But I am still trying — what I’m trying to satisfy myself about is when you found it necessary to go around the block to come back to Farish, you couldn’t ascertain what was going on at Farish at that time? A. I could not. Q. Now, you said you had police out there and Chief Ray had police out there, there were State Police out there too, B. Armstrong, C r . 1671. weren't A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. there? There were. And they had guns, rifles? They did. About how many of them were there? I couldn’t tell you. Could you give me an estimate? I could not estimate. And they had police dogs out there also? Possible. Do you remember seeing any police dogs? I believe I seen two. Were they with your group or with the State Police? They were with our group. With the group that you were over? No, with the group of police th^t was down there. Were they with the group that you commanded? They were not with the traffic men. Were they with Captain Ray’s group? Probably with Chief Ray’s. Do you know how many policemen in all were down there? I do not . Now, you said that there had been something like thirty- five hundred,;to four thousand people in this funeral procession initially, when it got to the funeral home? B. Armstrong, Cr. 1672. A. When it got to the funeral home, it was — I'd say, two thousand people, when we got to the funeral it was two thousand people in the area around the funeral home. Q. Do you know whether these were the same group in the procession or not? A. Some of them. Q. And some of them were not? A. Some of them, — the two thousand people that was around the funeral home, they were not in the procession, I don^t know where they come from. When we pulled the funeral procession in, I led it in, the sidewalks in the area around there, the yards and so on was full of people, plus the ones that was following the funeral procession. Q. So that this were not all people who had been in the funeral procession? A. I wouldnH say that. I couldn*t say that, it was quite a crowd up there. Q. Were you there when the people who had been in the funeral procession, when some of them began to leave the area and go about their business? For instance, some of the group that had been in the front of it? Did you observe this? A. I was in a position where I could see some very few people, some of the preachers and so on, did leave the area, left there walking. Q. Then there were those who did leave? B. Armstrong, C r . 1673 . A. There were some that left the area walking. Q. When you were there on the 15th after this funeral, Chief Armstrong, you weren’t in a position to see what was going on at the back of the procession, were you, when it got to Farish Street, since you were at the front trying to see what was going on there? A. No, you couldn’t see, it was so many people in there, you couldn’t see down to the back of it. Q. So that most of your attention was confined in the Capitol Street area? A. No, most of my attention was confined to the Farish Street area . Q. I meant Farish where it meets Capitol. A. I was on Farish Street up near the funeral home. I never did come back down to Farish and Capitol. Q. You didn’t get to Capitol Street? A. I never did get to Capitol Street. Once I went — MRS. MORRIS: Thank you. JUDGE CARL GUERNSEY called as a witness for the Defendants, after first being duly sworn, testified as follows: MR. TRAVIS: DIRECT EXAMINATION Q. Would you state your name, age and address, please? C. Guernsey, Dir. 1674. A. I am Carl Guernsey, my age is 38 and I live at 4729 Kings Highway, Jackson, Mississippi. Q. What is your position? A. I am Judge of the County Court, presiding over the Youth Court Division. Q. How were you, — how did you come to be Youth Court and County Court Judge? A. Originally by appointment of Governor J. P. Coleman in 1959, later by re—appointment and then by election. Q. All right, sir, A. That’s correct. Q. And you, indivi County Court Judge, are A. No , I am not. Q. Neither is the A. No, it is not . Q. What, Judge Gue Court and where does the from? A. The Youth Court lation, involving any child from 10 through 17 years of age, except in traffic offenses or in capital cases. The authority of the Youth Court is derived from the laws of 1946, the Youth Court Act which was patterned . after the Standard Juvenile Court Act, which was something of a model for Juvenile Court Acts of C, Guernsey, Dir. 1675. the 50 states. Q. Now, the City of Jackson falls within the jurisdiction of your Court, does it not? A. Entirely. Q. Entirely, and what, when you say Youth Court, what per sons can be handled through your Court as to ages? A. The Youth Court can deal with children through 17, that is until the 18th birthday with a provision for retention of jurisdiction until they are 20. We can deal also with adults responsible for the behavior of juveniles. On our neglect juris diction, we have no minimum age limit; on our deliquency jurisdic tion, we don’t commence until the 10th birthday. Q. D o you, as Youth Court Judge, have full and complete jurisdiction of all persons being held under the Youth Court Act? A. Yes, and the nature of the Youth Court Act, as is true, I think, in all states, is such that the Court itself controls whether matters will be handled on a formal or informal basis and whether the child in question will be retained or released, pending hearing. Q. Well, that then is in the discretion of the Youth Court Judge, and you in this particular situation, insofar as the City of Jackson is concerned? A. Yes, that Is correct. Q. Now, directing your attention, Judge Guernsey, to last summer, particularly the months of May and June, I’ll ask you if C. Guernsey, Dir. 1676. you had occasion, in your official capacity as Youth Court Judge, andle certain juveniles that were arrested in the City of Jackson by the Police Dena ».+• -e .Department for participating in various types of disorders? A. Yes, I did have. Q. Would you tell the Court the number that you handled, juveniles that you handled arising from this type of, these types of situations during the summer months, in particular the months of May and June?. A. From May 31st through July, we handled a total of 665 children. Q. 665 children. Now, how many of them were handled as juveniles? A. 650 were handled as juveniles; 15 were referred back to Police Court . Q. When you say they were referred back to Police Court, Judge Guernsey, what do you mean by that? A. The Police Court or the Municipal Court can act on a violation of the law by a juvenile only upon the certification by the Youth Court, they certify to these children. Q. In other words, then, you certified these 15 persons back to the Municipal Court to be handled as adults according to statues? A. That is correct. Q. Then, there were 650 of these juveniles, - when we say C. Guernsey, Dir. 1677. juveniles, we are speaking of persons under 18 years of age, i: t h a t CO]meet? A. That is co Q. That were tell u s what the di con si St (sd of? A. Yes. Tho s yoi >50 cases were, what they to their parents, immediately upon their parents calling for them, on two conditions. That is that the parent agreed to do every thing within his power in the interest of the child’s safety to keep that child from being involved in further demonstrations, and the other condition that the child himself would agree to be responsive to the authority and to the discipline of the parent. Q. Those were decisions and instructions that were given by you? A. That is correct. Q. Did the City of Jackson or any official of the City of Jackson, or representative of the City of Jackson, have anything to do with the making of that decision or those instructions, or was that your function entirely? A. You, Mr. Travis, Mr. Nichols, Mr. Tom Watkins, repre senting the City, had appeared when it wa s -indicat ed that there might be difficulty and requested leniency of the Court on behalf of any children who were involved and who could safely be relea sed . C. Guernsey, Dir 1678 . Q. Now, from the time these children were placed in deten tion until the time they were released, were they under your direct supervision and control? A. Under the law, they very definitely were. Q. And, insofar as these particular individuals were con cerned, did you exercise that authority? A. Yes, completely and there was no interference with that authority whatsoever. MR. BELL: Just for the record, I wonder if counsel could be directed to ask questions that aren’t leading, Your Honor, just as they were answered. THE COURT : Yes, don’t lead him. MR. TRAVIS: Q. Judge Guernsey, you were about to tell the Court in what manner you disposed of these 650 juveniles. A. All right. Those that were arrested on May 31st and on June 1st were released without formal petition. Those arrested after June 1st, a petition was filed, summons was served on the child and on the parents; they were brought into Court. No dis position was made on those who appeared for one offense, rather the cases were held open without adjudication for a term of one year . Q. And what disposition was made insofar as the juveniles Co Guernsey, Dir. 1679. were concerned, custody-wise? A. They were released to the custody of their parents. Q. State for the Court just what action you took to bring about the release of these juveniles — was there a large volume of them that went at one time? A. On the night of May the 31st there were, - the number I am not sure of — it was around 400 that were involved in demon strations that were brought into custody at one time. Because of the large number at that time, and again on June 1st, seeing that we wouldn't be able to expedite the release of these children nearly rapidly enough by having them transported to our office and met by their parents there, we went down to the fair grounds and .set up a temporary courtroom, I might say in a converted shower down there. We remained down there the first night until about 4:00 o'clock the following morning in order to release all who could be released. We came back early the next morning, early Saturday morning, about 8:30 or 9:00; remained down there until approxi mately 11:00 or 12:00 o'clock at night and then came back Sunday immediately after church and released all the remaining children whose families would come for them. Q. Were they released as promptly as the matter could be disposed of? A. Yes they were. After the first few came up for con- • sideration, police officers would work with us in processing C. Guernsey, Dir. 1680. these things as rapidly as possible. In other words, getting the children out, getting the parents and the children together order to effect their release at the earliest possible moment. Q. They were assisting you, then? A. Yes, that is correct. Q. Now, in regards to the 15 who you stated you certified back to the Police Court to be held as adults, would you tell the Court why this was, why they were ordered by you to be held as adults and not to be treated as juveniles? A. Some of them had previous juvenile records which, coupled with the one or more offenses involved here, indicated that they would not respond to the Youth Court programs available for them. Some of them became involved in two or more demonstra tions, so that we knew that under the circumstances then prevail ing we could not, with the limited personnel that we had, provide sufficient supervision to deal with them effectively. None of them were referred back, of what you would term "tender years", it was the older violators that we did refer back to the Police Court . Q. All right, sir. Now, from the time that these children were arrested until the time that disposition was made for their release by you, whose supervision, control and jurisdiction were they under? A. They were, as the law indicates, under the supervision and control of the Court. C. Guernsey, Dir. 1681. Q. That is A. That is Q. And you • A. That is Q* Then you A. Yes. Q. Now, did these children during this period of time, from the arrests up until you disposed of them or were they under your authority? A. No, the City of Jackson provided personnel to operate under the Court’s supervision, but at no time was there any action other than that which would be indicated. Q. Judge Guernsey, do you recall an incident involving one of these minors, I believe her name was Shirley Catchings? A. Yes, I do very well. Q. All right, would you tell His Honor what happened, — when was this, do you recall the date, approximately, or the date if you know it? A. No, I don’t remember the date. I think it could very easily have been June 1st, but I am not certain about that. Q. What happened? A. This child’s mother came down to the fair grounds to get her and when we found out who it was she was after, word was sent into the building reserved for girls in the same fashion that it had been sent in before and the girl refused to come out. C. Guernsey, Dir. 1682. Now, at the point, before we sent anyone in there for her, the mother said, "I’d like to go in and get her out of there myself." Q. Do you recall the mother’s name? A. Bennie Catchings, I believe was her name. But the mother went into the building and said that the child had refused to come out with her. At that time I told the mother that we would send someone in there to get her out and absolutely no protest was made, no request was made that she be allowed to stay in there. Two officers went in and I went in with the officers. The child ran into the washroom, the door remained open, and one of the officers went in after her and brought her out by the arm. I am convinced that when he did so, he used only the amount of force that was necessary to bring her out. Q. Were both of these officers acting under your direction? A. Yes, they certainly were. Q. Tell us what transpired after that. A. After the officer grabbed her by the arm and was bring ing her out, she was kicking and screaming. They came roughly two-thirds of the way out of the building, from the washroom to the exit, under exactly the same circumstances, when the mother came up behind the officer who had the child, grabbed hold of him, I don’t know what she was doing, but she was attempting to wrestle him off, and at that time Officer Ates came up behind her and did, with the heel of his hand, hit her across the back C. Guernsey, Dir. 1683. of the shoulder for the purpose, — I assume for the purpose of getting her to release his fellow officer. MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, I ask that the purpose be stricken. THE COURT: Overruled. MR. TRAVIS: Q. Did she leave after that? A . Yes, the child did come out, the mother came out and, sub sequently, the child and mother did leave to gether . Q. Insofar as the detention area for these juveniles were cone erned, Judge Guernsey, did you supervise and look over the f aci lities, the sleeping and eating faciliti es? A . Yes, I certainly did. I wa s down there during almost all o f the time, the first several days that they were down the almo st all of the time, except say from midnight until 8:00 in the moirning. Q. Would you describe these eating and sleeping faciliti e as satisfactory? A. Yes, very definitely so. I have been to Boy Scout camps that were not as well kept. MR. TRAVIS: Your witness. CROSS EXAMINATION MRS. MORRIS? C. Guernsey, Cr. 1684 . Q. Judge Guernsey, you said that you kept a number of these juvenile cases to be disposed of open for one year without any final disposition. A. Yes, that is correct. Q. During that period, are these people required to stay out of any civil rights demonstrations, is that a condition of it? A. To avoid any further violation of the law. i s Q. Well, since you are the one to determine what/ a violation of the law, would participation in civil rights demonstrations come within that definition? A. I couldn’t prejudge that in every case. I can conceive of civil rights demonstrations which would be a violation of the law. I can conceive of some which would not be. Q. And, in some of these instances when you first talked to these juveniles you tried, -*■> you testified that you tried to get them to promise to stay out of demonstrations and their parents to promise to use whatever influence they had over the child to keep them out. A . Yes, I did. Q. Now, you said that after June 1st petitions were filed and summons were served. Was this a petition alleging that the child was a juvenile delinquent? A. Yes, that is correct. Q. So that all of them were adjudicated juvenile delinquents C. Guernsey, C r . 1685. that were dealt with after June the 1st? A. None of them were adjudicated. The cases were held open . Q. Are all of the 650 cases being held open? A. No, those that were involved May 31st and June 1st, there was no petition filed and they were dealt with informally. Q. Subsequent to June 1st? A. That is correct. Q. Now, the ones after June 1st where there were petitions and summons, they were adjudicated juvenile delinquents in those - A. There has been no adjudications made. Q. Those are the cases that are held open at the present time . A. That is correct. Q. Now, I assume it to be closed within a year of the time the incident occurred. A. That is correct. Q. And the remaining ones, the 15 that you talked about,that were sent over to the City Court to be handled as adults? A. That is correct. Q. Now, you described this incident with Shirley Catchings. Do you know how old she was at that time? A. I believe she was 14 or 15, I could refresh my memory, but C , Guernsey, C r . 1686 . Q. 3)o you recall how large she was? A, She was an average child for her age, she wasn’t large, she wasn’t small. Q, Average for a 14 year old? A. That is correct. Q. And how old was the policeman who went after her? A. He was perhaps five,-10 or five,-11; 175 or 185 pounds. Q. When he brought the child out of the washroom where he had gone to get her, you said that he brought her out by the arm, did he have her arm behind her, to the best of your recollection? A. I do not recall that he did have, but I wouldn’t say that, he didn’t have. Q. Where were you standing when this was going on? A, When he was coming out of the washroom, he was facing me. When he turned and was going toward the door then his back was to me. In other words, I was standing at a vantage point that was to the west of the washroom, almost due west of the washroom. Q. And during the time that he came out of the washroom and he passed you going toward the door, he still had the Catchings girl by the arm? A. Yes, that is correct. Q, Now, where did the incident with her mother take place, near the door? A. It was near the exit C. Guernsey, Cr. 1687. Q. Bo you recall if it was between the washroom and the door, approximately? A. They didn’t go directly from the washroom to the exit door, there was sort of an arc they made in there. It would have been, oh perhaps, 75 yards from the washroom door to the exit the way they went. Q. Was the mother on the inside of the building or on the outside of the building? A. She was on the inside of the building. Q. By the door? A. Yes, that is correct. MRS. MORRIS: No further questions. MR. S. B. BARNES called as a witness for the Defendants, after being duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION MR. NICHOLS: Q. Would you give your name, age, and address to the Court Reporter please sir? A. S. B. Barnes, 1030 Claiborne Street, Jackson, age 52. Q. Mr. Barnes, by whom are you employed? A. The Police Department of the City of Jackson, Mississippi. Q. How long have you been employed by the Police Department of the City of Jackson? S. B. Barnes, J)ir . 1688 . A. Approximately 25 years. Q. Has that been continuous service? A . Yes. Q. Do you hold any rank with the Police Department? A. Deputy Chief of Detectives. Q. Did you hold that rank on May 31, 1963? A . Yes . Q. And you have held it since that time? A . Yes . Q. Were you on duty on May 31 and several weeks following that date? A . Yes. May at for at hut Q. What duty did you have with the Police Department on 31, 1963? A. I was placed in charge of the temporary jail facility the fair grounds. Q. Thatis here in the City of Jackson? A . Yes sir . Q. Now, would you describe that temporary jail facility the Court, please? A. This is two large buildings located on the fair grounds the east end of Capitol Street. I believe they are quonset type, approximately 200 feet long, about 100 feet wide, with windows and doors all around. Q. Are they flat buildings? S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1689. A. They are oval-shaped type buildings. Q. The roofs are? A. The roofs are oval-shaped, yes. Q. Now, you mentioned the buildings, there are two of them, more than one? A , Two buildings. Q. And, how are they located in relation to each other? A. I believe the buildings lengthwise would be running east and west. I’d say there was a brick patio between the two build ings about 40 to 50 feet wide. Q. Now, I hand you a photograph here and ask if you can identify it, Mr. Barnes? A. This is a photograph of the two buildings with the camera facing east; it is just east of Jefferson Street. It is on the fair ground property. Q. Does that photograph accurately portray these two build ings on that date? A . Yes. MR. NICHOLS: We offer this as Exhibit No. 54. MR. BELL: If he is offering these in evidence now, the first one there, again we are kind of in the dark as to what the relevance of this is going to be. THE COURT: S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1690. Your objection is supposed to point to me irrelevance and I’ll overrule your objection and let it be admitted in evi dence, Defendants* Exhibit 54. Go ahead. MR. NICHOLS: Q. Now, you stated you were in charge of the jail? A . Yes . Q. And, did you supervise all of the activities on the part of the jailers down there? A . Yes. Q. Such as food for the prisoners and sleeping accommoda tions, did that come under your charge? A . Yes. Q. Was food served to the prisoners there? A . Yes . Q. How often was it served? A. Three times a day. Q. Did you have occasion to eat the food on occasion your self? A. I did. Q.. I hand you a photograph and ask you if you can identify that for me, please? A. This is the benches set up between the two buildings for the prisoners to eat from and they are being served in a chow line in groups of about 12 or 15 at a time. They are allowed to go to these benches and sit and eat their food there. Q. 3)oes that photograph accurately portray those prisoners as they sat at a meal there? A . Yes. MR. NICHOLS: If it please the Court, we offer this as Exhibit No. 55. THE COURT: All right, it may be admitted in evidence and marked as Defendants’ Exhibit 55. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-55.) MR. NICHOLS: Q. Now, Mr. Barnes, are you familiar with any sleeping arrangements that might have been made for the prisoners? A . Yes . Q. Would you tell what, if anything, was done to afford the prisoners sleeping accommodations? A. It consisted of cots and mattresses, and blankets. Q. Now, I hand you a photograph here and ask you if you can identify that for me? A. This is a picture of some of the prisoners that was taken at the time an inspection was made at the women’s cell. Q. Can you identify any of the people in the photograph? A. Yes, I identify Barbara Morris, attorney, and a member of the Justice Department, his last name is Henderson. Q. Was he an attorney with the Justice Department? S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1691. A . Yes . S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1692. MR. NICHOLS: May it please the Court, we offer this — MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, I am going to object to that and the next two he intends to put into evidence. I donTt think it has any relevance to this case at all because whether or not the grounds were inspected could not be of any less moment. We are talking here about what happened as a matter of fact. THE COURT: All right, I’ll overrule the objection. This photograph may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. Go ahead. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit as D-56.) MR. NICHOLS: Q. Now, I hand you another photograph and ask you if you can identify that, please sir? A. This is a concrete patio shed covered by, -- on the east end of the buildings which extends across from each build ing . Q. Is this part of the A. Yes . Q. And, what does this ; A. Let’s see, it was ta Wilson, Chief Ray, and a memb Justice Department, I don’t were leaving the south building, which is the men’s cell, S . B . Barnes, Dir . 1693 . walking to the women’s cell for an inspection tour. MR. NICHOLS: May it please the Court, we offer this as Defendants’ Exhibit — MRS. MORRIS: Did you note my objection to the remaining photographs? THE COURT: it’s overruled. It may be admitted in evi dence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the Exhibit as D-57.) MR. NICHOLS: Q. Now, you mentioned these inspections. Am I to under stand that there was more than one inspection of this jail by the Justice Department? A. Will you repeat your question? Q. Am I to understand that there was more than one inspec tion of this jail by parties from the Justice Department? A . Yes. Q. How many were there? A . Two . Q. Now, Chief Barnes, as concerns the sleeping accommoda tions, were they, — no, strike that. Now, give me the procedure if you would briefly, Chief Barnes, as to just what happened when prisoners were brought to this temporary jail there. At what point did you take them into your custody and then tell me S . B . Barnes, D i r . .16 94 . what happened, if anything? A. The first group arrested was brought in, which was a large number; They were unloaded between the two buildings on the brick patio, or concrete patio. They were all placed into t e building to the north, north building. They were immediately booked and an arrest sheet made of each person, starting with the males and they were transferred to the south building. Q. What about the females? A. From then on as they were brought in, they were, of course, separated at that time, booked and separated before they went into the building. Q. Now, on each of the deposits made to the jail, was the same procedure followed? A . Yes . Q. They were booked and separated according to sex, is that correct ? A . Yes. Q. Now, Captain Barnes, were these sleeping accommodations and accommodations for feeding the prisoners and toilet facilities, were they adequate for the number of people you had there? A . Y e s . MR. BELL: I object, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. What do yo>u mean by adequate? S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1695 THE WITNESS: I would take, Judge, to be satisfactory bedding for someone to sleep, which consists of cots, mattresses, and blanket s. THE COURT: Take the toilet facilities, what sort of facilities did you have for toilets? THE WITNESS: I didn’t understand you, sir. THE COURT: Toilet facilities, what sort of facilities did you have for that? That was a part of his question. THE WITNESS: I believe, Judge, there is three toilets in each build ing. In other words, on each end of the building, there is either three or four toilets. THE COURT: For each sex? THE WITNESS: Yes, in other words, that would be the men’s cell would have three and the women’s cell would have three. THE COURT: What other accommodation did you have in the toilet area? THE WITNESS: What other accommodations? S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1696. THE COURT: Yes sir. THE WITNESS: Do you mean with reference to bathing, showers? THE COURT: Well, did you have such a thing? THE WITNESS: We had showers provided for them and they were allowed to bathe each day. THE COURT: Hot and cold showers? THE WITNESS: Did not have any hot water at that time, no sir. MR. NICHOLS: Q. Mr. Barnes, you were in charge of the jail on May 31 and you testified you received a certain number of prisoners at your temporary jail on that date, is that correct? A . Y e s . Q. After these parties were booked as you have outlined and separated as to sex, the women in one cell and the men in another, what was the demeanor of those prisoners thereafter? A. It was quite an ordeal as far as hollering, singing, and destroying property! I believe most of the windows were broken out that afternoon and late in the night all around the buildings . S. B. Barnes, Dir. 1697. Q. Who broke the windows out ? A. The prisoners • Q. How long did this uproar keep up? A. I’d say about Mo nday before they actually to reasoning where you could talk with them. Q. Did they keep up all night? A. All night long. MR c NICHOLS i settled down That’s all I have. CROSS EXAMINATION MR » BELLs Q. How many nights were the fair grounds used to hold the prisoners, Chief Barnes, before cots and blankets were brought in? A. They were offered cots, mattresses and blankets the first night they were booked. The men prisoners destroyed and tore up three cots as we were placing them in the cell and said that they did not want cots. We offered them to the women’s cell and they refused cots and mattressses or blankets either. Q. When were the cots placed in the facility? A. I thi.nk the women’s accept ed the blankets on Saturday night and[ all prisoners accepted cots and mattres s es on Sunday Q. You indicat ed as to cots and some other acti vity that it was property damage and you also indicated, «*— well you indicated windows being broken and things of this nature. Now, S. B, Barnes, Cr. 1698 . what was done by the police to find out who was responsible for this damage and what action was taken against the persons respons ible for the damage? A, It was almost impossible, it was impossible to say who actually broke the windows out or destroyed any property inside. Q. Now, you said that these people who had been arrested while participating in civil rights demonstrations in groups up to 400 had been brought into your facility by the police, and yet you were unable once they were in your custody to find out who, if any of them, had taken part in this destruction of property, is that your testimony? A. I wouldn’t know them by name. It was a large group and it was impossible to point out a particular one, exactly what he did. You could stand on the outside of the building and see the steel frames and glass come out on the building on the outside. Q. So when you offered, your men offered the first few cots on, you indicate the first night, you say these were destroyed. You didn’t know who had destroyed this property? A. I would say the group of prisoners therej I would not know them by name. Q. Was there any other way to ascertain who was responsible for the destruction? A. Not at that time because they were so unruly, it would have been impossible to make that type investigation. Q. So you gave out no further cots on the first night? S . B . Barnes , C r . 1699 . A. They refused cots. Q. No further cots were given out after the first indicated were destroyed? A. They were offered cots and mattresses each day Q. JDo you happen to know, Chief Barnes, when this grounds facility was constructed, when the fair grounds were built? few you and night, fair buildings A. I'm sorry, I can’t answer that question. Q. Bo you know when it was converted over for use to hold, as temporary prison facility? A . No, I don’t. Q. You do know that it was converted in some way to be used as a prison? A . Yes . Q. But you don’t know when this took place? A . No. Q« Now, what are these fair buildings used for normally? A. Exhibition buildings I understand, display buildings. Q. Display what? A. I have seen things displayed there during the fair, during a normal fair. Q, Are the building constructed for the display of live stock and other farm animals? A . No . Q, What type of materials are displayed there? A-. ITm sorry, I can’t answer that question, just name one particular thing. Q. To your knowledge they are not used for displaying live stock? A. No . Q. To your knowledge have the facilities ever been used to house persons, or prisoners prior to the time you took over to house the civil rights demonstrators? A. I cannot answer that question, I do not know. Q. To your knowledge has it been used subsequent to that time to house persons or prisoners, subsequent to the period when you were in charge last summer? Has it been used to house persons or prisoners? A. I’m sorry I can’t answer that one, I do not know. Q. You don’t know whether it has been so used? A. I’m sorry, I don’t know. Q. Were there a point at which you were relieved from this duty that you have been discussing here? A. Will you repeat that? Q. Were you relieved of your duty of, — in charge of this temporary fair ground facility? A . Yes . Q. When was that? A. When they closed it down. S. B 0 Barnes, C r . 1700. Q. When was that? A. I can’t tell you the exact date, but when the persons were all released on bond or transferred to the city jail. Q. Was that some time last summer? A . Y e s . Q. During the time that it was of it, were any other persons who wer crime brought to the facility, other involved in civil rights demonstratio A. No other particular charges, MR. BELL: No further questions. MR. WATKINS: May it please the Court, we Charles Evers as an adverse witness. THE COURT : Are you going to have very much examination of him? MR. WATKINS: No sir . THE COURT: All right. MR. CHARLES EVERS called as an adverse witness for the Defendants, after having been duly sworn, testified as follows: EXAMINATION S* B. Barnes, Cr. 1701. open and you were in charge e arrested and charged with than persons who were ns? no . would like to call Plaintiff MR. WATKINS: 1702 . Q. I believe you are the Field Secretary in Mississippi for the NAACP? A. That is correct. Q. You have previously testified in this case? A . Right . Q. Since the time that you testified earlier in this case, you have made one or more public speeches in which you have dis cussed this case or the matters involved in this case, have you not ? A. Not that I can recall, Q. Bid you not, on Saturday night, February 14, 1964, make a speech in Nashville, Tennessee? A. Right, I did. Q. Bid you not in that speech make the statement, "Folk we have made up our minds that if a white man shoots at a Negro in Mississippi, we will shoot back."? A . I did not . Q. Bid you make the statement during that speech, “If they bomb a Negro church and kill our children, we are going to bomb a white church and kill sdmerof their children."? A. May I state what I did say? Q. First, tell me did you make that statement? A. The statement was made, but not in the sense in which you are reading it off there. The statement was made, but not sence, thatTs why I would like to explain it. C. Evers, in that 1703 . Q. Bid you make it? A. A statement was made of that sort. Q. By you? A. By me. Q. And what you then say that is different, — how did it differ from — A. Now, here is what I said, I said, — the first thing I said, ,lThere are many good whites in Mississippi who believe in democracy and there are many Negroes who believe in democracy, but there are extreme groups in both groups, both races, and the extreme groups of each race do not understand non-violence and non-violence won’t work where they are concerned. The extreme whites who believe in bombing churches and shooting at the home and killing children do not understand anything, but if they shoot into your home, you shoot back; if they bomb your church, you bomb theirs." I said, "We have groups of our race who would do just that because they are vowed that they will not be misused and abused any more, but I hope the day will never come when Negroes and whites in Mississippi will have to go to arms to settle their differences." That wasn’t printed. Q. Bid you state during that speech that "If a Negro got on 'his knees and asked fob justice in Mississippi he would have his brains kicked out ."? A. I didn’t say that. I said, if a Negro, speaking of the extreme groups, if a Negro were down praying for justice or C. Evers, democracy, these same people would stomp his brains out or kick his brains out because they don’t understand non-violence nor do they understand religion or Christianity, Q. Did you tell that meeting that non-violence would not work in Mississippi and that you no longer advocated non-violence? A. I said it won’t work with extreme groups of both races. Q. Did you advocate the use of non-violence to achieve your goals in Mississippi? A. I have never advocated it. I don’t believe in non violence — in violence. I am strictly a non-violent, I think that has been proven and I never have advocated it, and I never will advocate it and I pray the day will come when it won’t be used against us. Q. Did you make the statement, ”We are going to bomb a white church and kill some of. their children.”? A. No . Q. You did not? A. No . Q. You have seen that statement attributed to you in the public press? A. I have seen in. I called back to the persons who mis quoted me and informed them that it ws s not true • It was a mis quote. I did say it, but not in the way in which they had it printed. I didn’t say we was going to. I was saying that extreme groups of both races and I still say there are extreme C. Evers, 1704. 1705 .C. Evers, groups of each race that will resort to nothing but violence but we hope the day will never come when neither Negroes nor white will have to shoot it out to get democracy in Mississippi. Q. Did you make the statement in that speech, "The Negroes in Mississippi have served notice that there won’t be any more Medlgar Evers killings in the state without reprisals."? A. No. I said, "We have served notice that we hope there won’t be any more Medgar Evers in Mississippi." If it should be, we certainly hope that there will be justice done and if it is not done, Negroes are not going to sit idle by any more and let people come into their home and drag them out and beat them up like dogs." I did say that. Q. What were you advocating there, that if a Negro were killed in Mississippi and if you didn’t consider that justice was done, then you would select a white man and kill him? A. No, no, no, I didn’t. I have advocated Article 3, Sec tion 12, of the Mississippi Constitution, that a citizen has a right to protect his home and his property, even unto arms, that is if they come into our homes, that is all I was advocating. Q. When you were making those statements in that speech, did you on more than one occasion turn to the reporters present and tell them, "Write that down, this is no secret."? A. Print the truth, yes, I said that, print the truth and they did just vice versa. Q. Now, you have since seen the Nashville Banner which 1706 . carried the headlines and the purported quotes from your speech in Nashville, haven’t you? A. I haven’t seen that. Q. Well, I’ll ask you to look at it. Have you read that article? A . No , I haven’t . Q. Please read it, it(s not long. A. It’s the same one that was in the Jackson Daily News, I read that, -- it seems that it is the same one that was in the Jackson Daily News and the Clarion Ledger, I read it. Q. Are any of the quotes in that article attributed to you true? A. Yes, I have the greatest respect for Martin Luther King, but I said, but the extreme groups of Mississippi will not under stand — Q. Read it verbatim. A. Oh, read it here as I said, ”1 have the greatest respect for Mr. Martin Luther King, but non-violence won’t work in Mississippi. You get on your knees down there praying for — MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, I object to the reading of this. It is not in evidence and it is being read in evidence and it hasnTt been offered. MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, I am questioning him about a statement he C. Evers, 1707 . has made, in Nashville, about this matter in Mississippi and he has just said this statement is correct and I want to — THE WITNESS: I said part of it. MRS. MORRIS: No he didn’t, he said part of it. Not all of that — THE WITNESS: Just a part of it. THE COURT: Well, let him examine him about it. Go ahead. THE WITNESS: A. Just the part where I said I have the greatest respect for Reverend Martin Luther King. MR. NICHOLS: Q. You didnTt say any of the rest of that sentence? A. Not in the way in which it is printed, no. Q. Then you disavow now every quote contained in that article attributed to you, is that correct? A. As advocating violence, yes. Q. Have you ever advised the Nashville Banner or anybody connected with that paper, in writing, that the quotes that they attributed to you in that article were not true and did not represent what you either said or stood for? A. I advised the UPI, I didn’t know who sent this, I just advised UPI, — I saw it in the Jackson Clarion Ledger, — UPI C . Evers, 1708 . and Mr. M c k Sanders down at WLBT news, I did. MR. NICHOLS: May it please the Court, I would like to offer in evi dence the story as it appears in the Nashville Banner which pur ports to quote this witness, with his testimony with respect to whether it is or is not a correct quote. MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, we object to the admission on a number of grounds. In the first place, the witness has disavowed most of that which appears there. Secondly, whatever is in a newspaper is hearsay; what a reporter said that he said and the witness is here himself to say what, in fact, he did say and he has clarified that for the record. The other statements which counsel was try ing to determine whether or not they were stated were read and --- during the questioning of the witness. THE COURT: Yes, IT11 sustain the objection to it as evidence and let it be marked for identification as part of your questions to him. (Whereupon the clerk marked the the exhibit D-58<for identi fication.) MR. NICHOLS: That’s all the questions I have from this witness. MR. BELL: No questions, Your Honor. C . Evers, THE COURT: 1709 . All right. We will take a recess until 9:00 o’clock in the morning. MR. WATKINS: Judge, we are just about ready to rest. THE COURT : Oh, you are? MR. WATKINS: Yes sir. I wanted to ask the Court’s permission to do one thing before I rest. Early in this case we had marked for identification Exhibits B-ll, 12, 13, and 14, which constituted the transcript of the testimony taken in the Chancery Court case. At the time we offered them there was, as I recall it, strenuous objections on the part of opposing counsel. In this case we have /developed, in my opinion, a substantial part of the same evidence that appears in this record. I see no longer any need for it and I would like permission to withdraw those exhibits which had been previously marked for identification only. THE COURT: What number is that? MR. WATKINS: D—11, 12, 13, and 14. THE COURT: 11, 12, 13, and 14? MR. WATKINS: That’s right 1710 . THE COURT : All right, Defendants Exhibits 11, 12, 13, and 14 for identification may be withdrawn from the record in this case. MR. WATKINS: The Defense rests, Your Honor. MR. BELL: Your Honor, we have at least one rebuttal witness and possibly another one if we can get hold of them and also a few motions and we want it clarified, you recall, that Mayor Thompson had been asked to go over his exhibit, the exhibit of the news paper articles attributing various statements to him and indicate which of those icre true and which were not so we still did have a few other matters. THE COURT: All right, you want the Mayor back on the stand? MR. BELL: I don’t know that that will be necessary if he were able to identify or, — one way or another, indicate what the situation was as to those alone. Perhaps that would be the easiest way. THE COURT: You all just work that out among yourselves. We will take a recess until 9:00 o’clock in the morning. A. Thompson, R e d i r * 1711. (Friday morning, February 28, 1964, 9:00 A.M., Court was opened and the proceedings continued as follows:) MRS. MORRISS Your Honor, we would like to recall Mayor Thompson. When he testified before he was given some clippings represent ing statements he had made and I believe he was instructed by the Court that he take the clippings and study them and testify as to whether or not they were statements made by him. I would like to clear that up at this time, and hand him the exhibit, which has been marked P-27 for identification, and ask him about them. MAYOR ALLEN THOMPSON having been previously sworn, took the stand and testified as follows : REDIRECT EXAMINATION MRS. MORRIS: Q. Now, Mayor Thompson, these statements you have been instructed by the Court to compare them with your original statements and see if ~ THE COURT: I didn’t instruct him to do anything. Let’s get this clear for the record. I permitted him to do that. MRS. MORRIS: All right, Your Honor. Q. N©w, Mayor Thompson, have you compared these statements A. Thompson, Redir 1712. to determine if they were correctly quoted? A. Well, I have not in each instance, although I can go over them. As far as possible, I have looked at them to deter mine what was said, but they go back over a period of time. Q. Now, as to the third page on Exhibit 27, would you read that and tell us if that represents what you said? A. The quotes are more or less accurate, but all of these statements were made over a period of time. Some are quotes and some are just comments taken out of contextj in fact, each one of these were taken out of context, and I would say every dis cussion that I entered into was prefaced with the statement that I was against unlawful activities, unlawful demonstrations, unlawful picketing, unlawful marches, unlawful activities, and each one of these statements was taken in connection with that and are in conjunction with that. That was the way invariably I started off every discussion that I made. Q. This one that we are looking at, on page 3 of Exhibit _27, did you make these remarks that were quotes here? A. That has to do with the Governor and the rights of the people . MR. WATKINS: I want to object to this, Your Honor, I cannot see how this line of questioning has anything to do with the issues in t hi s lawsuit. THE COURT: A» Thompson, R e d i r . 1713. It was my understanding that these were allowed to go in for the purpose of identification. You can examine him about it just as counsel was allowed to examine the witness yesterday about newspaper clippings. These are reporters that have written these articles, and we are not trying the reporters. Go ahead and ask your question. MRS. MORRIS: Q. Now, on page 4 of Exhibit 27, were you quoted correctly in saying you were satisfied that the federal occupation of the City of Oxford was illegal? A. ”The federal occupation of Oxford was illegal, and the City of Jackson would challenge through the courts any similar action here That was my belief. MR. WATKINS: May it please the Court, that hasn*t got a thing in the world to do with this lawsuit. THE COURT: 1 I sustain the objection to that. MRS. MORRIS: Q. Does it accurately reflect what you said on that o cca sio n? MR. WATKINS: May it. please the Court, we have objected to that and you have sustained the objection. THE COURT : A. Thompson, R e d i r . 1714. I have sustained the objection to that. MRS. MORRIS: Q. What about page 5, the same question? A. It refers to the public officials handling the situation in Jackson. That is, as I stated, taken out of context in which I was saying that these things should be handled by the officials, any law violations, demonstrations, were matters for the police, and not for any individuals. Q. Page 5 of Exhibit 27 has 1, 2, 3 quotes in that article, do those represent accurate quotes or not? A. They would have to be taken in conjunction with what had been said, outside agitators, who come in with threats, demonstrations were matters for the public officials. "You didntt see our local Negro parents involved, it was the NAAGP, agitators, those who do it for political reasons, those that make money"- that would have been in conjunction with many things in line with it. Q. Now, would you examine the next page, Mayor Thompson, I want to know if the quote accurately represents what you said on that occasion? A. ,lCarl Rachlin of New York, counsel for the priests,” — THE COURT : Read it to yourself, Mayor. MRS. MORRIS: Q. Is that an accurate quotation of what you said? A. Thompson, R e d i r . 1715. A. That is as accurate as possible taken out of context, and with the same explanation as before that every single thing in here was mentioned as a result of unlawful demonstrations, unlawful activities, and unlawful threats by outside agitators. Q. Now, on page 7 of Exhibit 27, does that accurately reflect your views? A. The same answer to this as in the others except this differs and the others differ, but in the main we were not going to agree to a bi-racial committee under threats of mass marches, picketing and boycotting — Q. Then this does accurately reflect your views? A. It bears out that that was the reason, because of the unlawful threats, demonstrations, and all of this is like the other questions, I do not know whether it is accurate or not, whether I said this particular thing, but this "under threat of mass marches" is correct. Q. Have you ever gotten in touch with the newspaper and ask that these be retracted? A. I do not ever make a practice of asking the newspapers to change any statement. In the first place, people forget it by the next day until it is brought into a Court like this. Then it calls attention to something that is a mistake on both parts. My idea is that it does not help to call attention to something that is not exactly right when people will forget it the next day anyway. Q. Page 8 of Exhibit 27, does that accurately reflect your views? A. I don’t remember saying all these things. Q. Bo you recall saying any of them? A. Anything I said is taken out of context. Q. Do you remember saying any of them, Mayor Thompson? A. No, I don’t remember saying them as it is down here. Q. Then your views are not consistent with Page 8? A. Not completely. MR. WATKINS: Now, Your Honor, I am going to object to her asking if that reflected his views, asking if he said something is one thing, - the newspaper article put in front of him could not possibly be representative - THE COURT: I understand counsel, I think you are more concerned with the quotation rather than whether his views or feelings are expressed, and I will sustain the ob j ect io n in qpart , but I will allow you to ask him about whether or not it is an accurate reflection of what he said. THE WITNESS: ”He called on city employees and all other Jacksonians to go about their normal business, keep going to shopping cen ters, because people who break the law are going to be picked up and go to Jail.” That expresses my views. A. Thompson, Redir. 1716. ”We are not going A. Thompson* R e d i r . 1717. to threaten anybody in the world.” That expresses my views. "How in the world can Negroes win any kind of fight like this; they can demonstrate, they can march, they can riot, or they can throw rocks and assemble like they did this morning, but what are they going to gain?” That expresses my views. MRS. MORRIS: Q. What about the comments about Tougaloo College? THE COURT: About what? MRS. MORRIS: Tougaloo College. A. "When the Kennedys leave office, the NAACP has collected all the money it can milk oit of the people, who are the fine Negro people going to be looking to, - the people they have been working with side by side all their lives." THE COURT : But I want to point out that in my view, the Mayor does not write the ordinances for the City. In fact, he is just a Mayor and there are three people elected to write the City laws, and comments attributed to him in a newspaper would not be the policy of the City, when it is not up to him alone to decide that. MR. BELL: May I just say a few remarks on that, Your Honor. The cases decided by the Supreme Court, such as the one from South Carolina, I believe the Patterson case, involving a trespass on on a segregation ordinance, the Court held when such an ordinance exists the persons could not be convicted for trespassing, for sitting in privately owned restaurants, and it was said that the ordinance was the overriding policy notwithstanding what the individuals view might be - and in the Lombard case from Louisiana -- THE COURT: That is what I was addressing myself to. MR. BELL: There was no ordinance, but they pointed to an example made by the Mayor of what his position would be as far as not permitting any such demonstrations. They said here the policy of the City is shown through the statements of the Mayor, and as here in this situation, we are trying to show the policy of the municipality has the same effect as an ordinance, if those practices are followed according to the public statements by the Mayor. THE COURT: I don’t think it is given to the Mayor of Jackson to establish the public policy of the City of Jackson. I think that is the duty of the three of them. MR. WATKINS: Excuse me, Your Honor. In the Lombard case there were repeated definite public statements by a Mayor purporting to A. Thompson, Redir. 171 ", speak for the official city of New Orleans, and in no instance A. Thompson, Redir . 1719. that Mayor Thompson has been questioned about did he attempt to say that the policy of the City of Jackson was one thing or another . THE COURT: If one person were going to make the rules for a munici pality there would be no need to go to the expense of electing City Commissioners to serve with the Mayor to make these deci sions . MR. BELL: I just wanted to try to explain a little bit about what we had in mind. THE COURT: I knew what you had in mind. MRS. MORRIS: Q. Now, Mayor Thompson, on page 8 of Exhibit 27? A. Now, this is taken out of context, and the only policy as mentioned to them by the Mayor and Commissioners was that unlawful acts of any kind would be prohibited. That has to be tied into it, it is taken out of context - and any statements made as my personal opinion could be some times right or wrong. Q. What about the statement concerning Tougaloo College? A. "Tougaloo College is the cancer of this whole thing." Q. It is not necessary to read it unless you prefer to. A. "They get folks to come in and try to take over." Those are not my exact words or complete words. A, Thompson, R e d i r . 1720. Q. Did you say something similar to this? A. It was taken out of context, I have said many times that Tougaloo College was the center of the whole agitation, and was bringing in all these outside agitators to go into the churches, to go out and threaten people, to start unlawful demonstrations, and other unlawful activities and that they are encouraged at that particular place. Q. Now, on page 9 of Exhibit 27, does that accurately reflect what you said? A. The same answer in connection with this. THE COURT: Is that a copy of a newspaper article? THE WITNESS: From the Clarion Ledger, and it just goes on along the same line, "any person who breaks the law is going to be picked up and taken to jail"; it is all telling the citizens that the City Administration intends to uphold the law, and to prevent unlawful operations of any kind, unlawful agitators, unlawful demonstrations, and threats. In other words, it is just the duty of the Mayor and Commissioners of a city. THE COURT: Do you establish and make the public policies of the City of Jackson? THE WITNESS: There is not any way for me as Mayor to do that, Your A. Thompson, R e d i r . 1721. Honor . THE COURT: Q. Bo you attempt, yourself, to make public policies? A. It wouldnTt be possible even if I tried. MRS. MORRIS: Q. Are these your quotes as expressed on page 9, Mayor Thompson? A. All this is the same as with the others, it is taken out of context. Q. Is there anything that appears on page 9 in quotations that you havenft said? A. Everything I am quoted as saying, it would be impossible for me to remember everything I have said, - but what I am saying it all has been stated in conjunction with the civil disturbances, demonstrations, andother activities initiated for the purpose of creating strife. Q. Now, my question was - A. Just a minute, I am reading here, and these things would have to be taken in conjunction with that, and not out of cont ext. Q. My question was simply, was there anything here in quotes that you didn*t say, to the best of your knowledge? A. To the best of my knowledge, what I said was explaining that unlawful disturbances - I would have to go over each one of these and answer yes or no A. Thompson, Redir 1722 . Q. Would you do that for me? A. The first one "Jackson is facing a great opportunity as well as a strong challenge. As your Mayor and Commissioners we are responsible for maintaining law and order as well as looking after the civil affairs and interest of all citizens, this we will do, but we need the cooperation of every loyal white and colored citizen. The civil disobedience demonstrations of the past two days were planned for the purpose of creating strife," - that is my belief, - "arousing passions, and disrupting busi ness." - This is my belief. THE COURT: What time are you talking about? THE WITNESS: That was back in May after all the trouble - itTs dated May 31st, 1963. "It is the hope of the racial agitators that hoodlums, ruffians and juvenile delinquents, as well as thoughtless individuals of both races, will take matters in their own hands and cause violence." That is my belief. THE COURT: I didnTt get that. THE WITNESS: "It is the hope of the racial agitators that hoodlums, ruffians and juvenile delinquents, as well as thoughtless indi viduals of both races, will take matters in their own hands and cause violence." That is my belief. They put 600 juveniles in A. Thompson, Redir. 1723 . front of these other people, and they were arrested and taken down to jail and released to their parents. "This will support their plea that federal troops and marshals be used." That is my belief . "We can handle any organized demonstrations with our law enforcement officers who are trained to deal with such matters. Our great opportunity is to be the first city in the nation to handle this organized racial disturbance with dignity, calmness, and without violence. Your part as loyal citizens both white and colored is to ignore the demonstrators, go about your usual business, do not avoid Capitol Street and its mer chants. Do not stop and congregate around any demonstrators, either in private places of business or in public places. "If you will cooperate with us in this way, we can handle this crisis, in a manner that will leave the best possible spirit or mutual trust and good-will between responsible citizens and races . "These racial agitators will pass and we need to handle them in such manner as to improve the mutual spirit of coopera tion so that our city can continue its progress for the best interest of all citizens." That is my belief. "If we need more space, ITm sure the Governor and the Legislature will allow us to use the state penitentiary." That is my belief . "Two hundred cots, mattresses and blankets are available A. Thompson, Redir. 1724. and we can have thousands more at a minute’s notice.” The cots and mattresses were made available and the people tore up the cots and mattresses hitting them on the side of the wall. MRS. MORRIS: Q. You say you know this? A. That is what happened. Q. It was reported to you? Q. Oh, yes. "Any person who breaks the law is going to be picked up and taken to jail." That is my hope. Everything after that is taken out of context. "There will be no violence in Jackson and people will be protected from violence." It says something about a collision course here, that is generally what I believe, - what has been going on and being threatened by the agitators all over the country, that outsiders are going to come in and take over ~ this is a collision course unless this can be handled in a lawful manner. These people who want every thing for nothing and think it can be gotten by making demands and having demonstrations instead of earning it, things are not accomplished by those means. They can demonstrate, march, picket and riot from now on, but they cannot win like this, it won’t get them more money, more schools or better jobs. The only way to get these things is by going along with us, "and going along in a community where law and order is maintained. " There is opportunity here in Jackson, plenty of jobs, and we will help people get jobs if they Mayor Thompson, Redir. 1725. need jobs, we don*t have any slum districts, there is good housing and good facilities. That is what I meant by that, and the way it is is not exactly as I stated it. "When Kennedy is out of office, and the NAACP has milk ed innocent Negroes of their money and moved on, local Negroes are going to have to look to the white people who have helped them all the time." All I meant by that, local colored people and local white people will have to continue to get along and live side by side as they have for a hundred years. "He urged the white community not to let the action of a few radicals create hard feelings against all local Negroes." We have tried very hard to keep the people, the good white people and the good colored people, from being antagonized toward the colored people because of these activities by agitators who come in, possibly a thousand in this whole country who are causing this trouble, and making it hard on not just white people but good colored people. They come in and frighten them, won’t even let them put up trees at Christmas, and I have urged the people not to feel upset toward the good colored people because of what these agitators have done. "Local parks, playgrounds and libraries have been de segregated by court order. If radicals try to take them over, they will all be closed. Nearly all the money to build Mayor Thompson, R e d i r . 1726. these facilities has come from white people. If they see that they are not going to be able to use them in peace, they won’t keep paying for their operation.” That is plain, com mon sense, as I see it. If these big crowds start wanting to go down and take it over, it is going to make a problem for everybody. Of course, all these things can be worked out, but the point I was making, these agitators, who are not really interested in the Negro being educated, and who are not really interested in getting schools for the Negroes or getting jobs for thejn, they are only interested in causing trouble to force their demands. "Public swimming pools won’t be open just yet because of minor water troubles ." We had S'ome trouble with water in the pools last., year • "City officials have the support of a tremendous numb of local negroes who wa nt pea ce and quiet . They don’t wa nt Jackson to develop into the same mess as other citi es who are not safe to live in peace ." That’s right. We have the best opportunity ;of any place in the country. Now, the se don’t express my whole views, they are taken out of cont ext . "Tougaloo College and Campbell College are the cancer of this racial mess.” I don’t know how cancer applied to that. “This mess will pass and we will be just like we were Mayor Thompson, Redir. 1727. before it started — unless we give in to the demands and threats of these radicals." That means unlawful demonstra tions, unlawful threats. "Thompson urged parents to keep track of their children during the current tensions. 1 Enow where they are$ he said, ’and make sure they are at home at the proper times1. That is what I said. "Teenagers were responsible for much of the racial violence1.* That’ 3 right . (There was an interruption here when the Court told some waiting attorneys that he would not be able to take up motions until the trial of this case was over) THE COURT: All right, go ahead. THE WITNESS: "Teenagers were responsible for much of the racial violence which erupted Tuesday over a sit-in demonstration at the lunch counter at Woolworth’s on E. Capitol. Fast moving Jackson police smothered three downtown demonstration attempts and routed a group of rock-throwing Negro students at Lanier High School. A Shrine parade scheduled for noon Thursday was cancelled by police officials as a preventive measure. Fourteen demonstrators, including four ministers, and whites and Negroes, were arrested in the late afternoon Mayor Thompson, Redir 1728 as they attempted to hold a prayer meeting on the Capitol Street steps of the Post Office. "Three leading agitators were jailed in the incident, including the Rev. R. E. King, white chaplain at Tougaloo Christian College, who was hauled to a police paddy wagon by Negro trusties as he dropped to his knees following his arrest. "Some 500 students at Negro Lanier High School left their classes to participate in a demonstration which police officials say was apparently staged for the benefit of re porters and photographers. They booed and threw rocks at police officers, chanting *We want freedom. We want freedom. This is part of what I said during that time. As I have men tioned, statements that I have made were made in conjunction with these unlawful efforts by these agitators to tear up a peaceful city and the efforts of the law enforcement officers to keep them from their unlawful activities. THE COURT: This is still May 3lst? MRS. MORRIS: Q. Now, we move on to page 10, dated October 31, 1963. I direct your attention, Mayor Thompson, to the words under lined, and ask you to tell us if you were correctly quoted, and whether that reflects accurately your statements. Mayor Thompson, Redir 1729 . "He told Chancery Judge Stokes Robertson he could have cut off demonstrations during the three months of tension by appointing an NAACP-sponsored bi-racial committee, but warned Tthat was just the beginning. It would have led to taking over operation of the city by the NAACP.T,t That is correct. The NAACP insisted that the Commissioners and I appoint a bi-racial committee, and they would have taken over the whole city, this would only have been the first of their demands. I told him that within a very short while demands would be made in other areas. THE COURT: Who is him? THE WITNESS: I am talking to Judge Robertson in court, the injunction hearing before Judge Robertson. MR. WATKINS: We object to taking the newspaper report as evi dence of what Mayor Thompson said in that court hearing. The transcript would be the best evidence. I think there is an inconsistency there. MRS. MORRIS: I will offer the transcript of the Mayorts testi mony if you will go along with us. I am perfectly willing for the testimony of the Mayor to go in. Mayor Thompson, Redir . 1730 . MR. WATKINS: I think the transcript in its entirety should go in if any part of it goes in. MRS. MORRIS: The Mayor’s testimony. MR. WATKINS: I am not bargaining with you, counsel, I am addres sing my remarks to the Court. We object to quoting from a newspaper article what the Mayor said at that hearing. THE COURT: I will take that up at the proper time. Go ahead. THE WITNESS: "Thompson said he considered a bi-racial committee ’against the law because they would appoint somebody to run my city’J - That my city meant cials - but I do believe this, tee that I have ever seen, the and assumes all the authority, antagonize the people. Let’s "It is going to pop a conqueror, and that’s what is referring to these unlawful ities. That’s right. "-charged that seven that there were elected offi- that in any bi—racial commit- radical element takes over and that would only help to lee further on this. iut again. You can’t satisfy they would have been." That agitators and unlawful activ- proposals demanded by the NAACP made difficult improvements he claimed he had already Mayor Thompson, R e d i r . 1731. planned." THE COURT: I would rather you didn*t lean back against the wall. MRS. MORRIS: I am sorry. THE WITNESS: In other words, when these demonstrations and ac tivities were put on by these agitators, it made it impos sible to take care of these facilities and all for the colored people that we had been doing, but we went ahead in spite of these things, and did all this. "You would have marvelled at the calmness and res traint the police showed when they had bricks and bottles thrown at them, and were called everything in the world", I told a New York NAACP attorney that. "Thompson testified he has no control over church segregation in Jackson. Whatever the churches decide as to whom they should keep out, that is entirely up to them.* Police will not intervene unless violence erupts. "He denied that the 1954 school integration deci sion is binding in Jackson." I won’t go into that, but the record will show what I had to say, but whatever I said is just an opinion and the Court would hold what is right on Mayor Thompson, Redir . 1732 . that. That is not a part of this lawsuit. •‘It was decided one way in the 1800* s and after years of litigation it was decided another way. As far as I am concerned it has not been decided in Jackson.** That was all general, in the school case. •‘Thompson charged Wednesday that anti-segregation demonstrations last summer were designed to ‘intimidate Jackson whether it was lawful or not*.** That*s right. “He called together city officials in mid-May to prepare for this expected invasion of outside agitators coupled with local agitators’after receiving letters from the NAACP demanding an end to segregation practices in Jack- son." It was not just segregation demands alone, it was other unlawful and ridiculous demands. “He said he considered the letters and following telegrams threats. “An uneasy peace and quiet reigned during a flurry of communication, which he construed as a threat to do any thing they wanted to.** In conjunction with this, these agitators came to me, they said if they got so and so, all right, otherwise, we will demonstrate. They didn’t get what they asked because it was illegal and not in line what what we believe to be within the law and in the best interest of white and colored people. They thought they could do us as they have done in other cities, to have demonstrations and scare the public into doing things illegal. "Integration groups, Thompson testified, told city officials ’if we didn’t do what they said, there would be enough violence to make us do it.” ’ That’s right. "He said he feared the group’s threats of direct action would tear up a city." That’s right. MRS. MORRIS Q. All right, Mayor Thompson, this is the final one, page 11 of Exhibit 27, would you do the same thing with that one? A. This is December 6th, in the Times Picayune„ ~ "was hiring extra personnel as a deterrent to future racial problems." That’s right. ". . . told city department heads the city was increasing an effort to protect Jackson business firms and customers from threats or intimidations by ’agitator groups.’ That’s correct . "The mayor said a Negro church was threatened because it bought an organ from a white merchant." That’s right. "We will hire everybody we have to insure that you can buy anywhere you want to in the city without fear of threat or intimidation." "We are going to prosecute anybody we hear trying to prevent people from buying where they want Mayor Thompson, R e d i r . 17 to." That is correct and we made every effort, but these Mayor Thompson, Redir. 1734- colored agitators had the colored people of Jackson so afraid around Christmas it was very difficult, although we offered protection to anybody who was unlawfully threatened or intimi dated. The colored people, so-called, self-styled colored leaders even became afraid and tried to stop some of this threatening of their own colored people but it had gone too far for them to do any good.. "Thompson said Jackson ?would. fill the jail with persons responsible for such acts or threats if they are reported to us.111 That is in context with all of the other that we will put every person who has violated, a law, white or colored, that we can apprehend in jail. "He said it would not be necessary for informants to identify themselves for assistance." They were so afraid that they wouldn*t even notify the Police ^Department what these colored agitators were openly and brazenly doing. "We have 350 people in the Jackson Police .Depart ment with 275 of them being officers, . ." that means handling -- ". . and we are hiring extra personnel to see that no one is subject to threats in this city." Unlawful threats and intimidation in line with this, applies to white and to colored , "The mayor labeled the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People the *NACP which covers all agi tator groups to me. They are what all intimidators represent Mayor Thompson, Redir . 1735 . to me.'" That’s right. Q. Now, Mayor, I take it that you consider all, — A. Now, the first pages, I didn’t go over as I did these but any statements that I made about the first would be that they were exactly as I mentioned only in conjunction with unlaw ful demonstrations or unlawful activities, or threats or intimi dations . Q. Now, Mayor, I take it that you consider selective buying campaigns or boycotts to be illegal. A. I think where it is coupled with threats, where they threaten people, the threatening part is unlawful. In other words, the selective buying put on by these agitator groups where they get out these pamphlets ’don’t buy at certain stores,’ then they go in and grab the merchandise out of the hands of the people, that’s unlawful. Where they threaten to hurt them, that’s unlawful. Where they go into a local store and the store has to mail packages to them, that’s unlawful. Where they try to prohibit by forceful, unlawful threats, anybody having the right to follow any peaceful, lawful wish, I consider that unlaw ful. Q. Then I take it that if you remove the threats, you have no objection to selective buying or to boycott? A. I don’t know. If you’ll give me a specific instance, I can tell you what I think about, — you are talking about a general, - I’d prefer that you give me a hypothetical case, then I can tell you yes or no about an exact case, but you can’t cover anything generally. MR. WATKINS: If it please the Court, I want to stop this line of questioning on the ground that it calls upon the witness for a legal opinion. All of this matter is settled by law and he couldn’t change it by answering it one way or the other. THE COURTS Well, she’s on cross examination. I’ll let him proceed. He’s a lawyer. Mayor Thompson, Redir. 1736. MR. WATKINS: On legal questions, Your Honor? THE COURT: Well, I don’t think that as an expert witness, and I don’t called, is entitled to express an rule your objection. a witness, unless he is called understand that he is so opinion, but I’ll still over- MR. WATKINS: For the sake of the record, let me add to my objection the fact that counsel is not distinguishing between individual action in the form of boycott and whether it’s one or more people agreed to act together in connection with a boycott, which I submit makes a.material difference. MRS. MORRIS: Q. Mayor Thompson, didn’t you advocate that.- people, I Mayor Thompson, 1737 . think you called it a selective viewing campaign, or boycott viewing the Bonanza program after the personnel declined to appear at a segregated performance here in Jackson? MR. WATKINS: We object to that. It is not material to any issue involved in this case.' THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. THE WITNESS: A. My statement in relation to that was to the effect that when these Bonanzas were threatened away by a very few self-styled colored leaders who told them that they had better not come to Jackson, that they refused to come, my statement was in indignation that anybody would succumb to that sort of threat and deal with the NACP, or SNCC, or any of those elements instead of to the persons who contracted with them. I brought it up in a complete statement and said that as far as I’m con cerned, not as the Mayor of Jackson, that I was not going to look at the Bonanzas any more because I thought that they had insulted the City of Jackson, the people of the state, by break ing a contract, and I was going to practice selective viewing. Further in that statement, I said there were no threats, there were no intimidations, there was no conspiracy, that it was my personal belief that anybody who thought like the Bonanzas ought not to come into my house. It was left up entirely to what Mayor Thompson, 1738 . other people did. I didn’t go out and threaten anybo dy in the city, that if they watched them, I would take act ion against them, a s these NACP foIks do . This wa s my own per s o na 1 belief in telling them how I felt about it e Q. Mayor Thompson, is this your stat ement ? A. This is one of them • Q. You ma d e that one? A, This is the second one, yes. This has to do after A1 Hirt was scared away. He was afraid that he would have trouble, that they would demonstrate, that your folks would demonstrate, and so he said that he had better not stay around while they are demonstrating. Then the Webb matter was mentioned in there. He was scared away because you folks said if you come down here I think you’ll picket or something to that effect. And then I go into the Bonanzas. Q. But that’s an accurate reproduction of your statement? A . That ’ s right . . MRS. MORRIS: I’d like to submit this, if your Honor please. THE COURT: That statement may be admitted in evidence. MR. WATKINS: We object to it as immaterial, Your Honor, to any issue in this case. We also object because counsel apparently has underlined and emphasized certain sentences in the speech Mayor Thompson, 1739 . which I don’t believe would -- MRS. MORRIS: The interlineations did not appear on the originals, but I would like it admitted without the interlineations. THE COURT: All right, it may be admitted in evidence and be properly marked. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit P-28.) MRS . MORRIS: Q. Mayor Thompson, this was reprinted and widely distri buted, wasn’t it? A . Yes . MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, I may clear the rest of thi s up . I have no objection to the transcript from the Stat e Court pr oceedi ng being admitted in evidence in this proc eeding which will clear up the Mayor’s testimony that he compared to the article in the paper . THE COURT: You want to offer it in evidence? MRS. MORRIS: No, I think that — THE COURT: Well, you are putting on your rebuttal. You want to offer it in evidence? Mayor Thompson, 1740 . MRS. MORRIS: All right, Your Honor, 1*11 off er it in evidence. THE COURT: All right, the entire transcript may be admitted in evidence. MRS. MORRIS: I have no further questions. MR. WATKINS: She hasn*t made her record yet, where is your tran script ? MRS. MORRIS: IT11 have to — we have your copy, my copy, Your Honor, is not in -~ MR. WATKINS: You mean you offer my copy? MRS. MORRIS: No, wait a minute. I offer my copy. My copy is not here. I will bring it into Court and have it submitted. THE COURT: I believe there are four volumes, is that right? MRS, MORRIS: Thatts right, and I have a certified copy of the transcript. THE COURT: All right, those four volumes constituting the record Mayor Thompson, 1741 . of the trial in the Chancery Court, which was previously marked as Defendants’ Exhibits 11, 12, 13, and 14, will now be admitted in evidence as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit — all four volumes will be Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 29. (Whereupon the clerk marked the exhibit P-29.) MRS. MORRIS: I’ll see that they are submitted to the Court. THE COURT: All right. MR. WATKINS: Just a few questions please, Mayor. Q. With reference to the Bonanza incident, where was that performance to take place? A. Take place at the Coliseum. Q. Does the City of Jackson have control over who attends or does not attend performances at the Coliseum? A. No sir. Q. Where was the A1 Hirt performance to take place? A. The Coliseum. Q. Does the City of Jackson have control over who attends or does not attend performances there? A . No sir . Q. Now, the Webb speech, where was that to take place? A. Heidelberg Hotel. Q. Does the city of Jackson have any control over who Mayor Thompson, 1742 . attended or did not attend the speech of Mr. Webb? A. We contributed, the City of Jackson contributed to the Chamber of Commerce for this Legislative dinner, but we had no control over who was asked to speak. When I say control, if we had known about it we probably could have said something about it, but we had no control — Q. I’m not referring to the speaker now. Did you have any control over who was in attendance at the meeting? A. Oh, no sir, other than the Legislature, we asked the Legi slature. MR. WATKINS: I believe thatls all. MRS. MORRIS: Your Honor, I just have two questions. The Coliseum is owned by the State of Mississippi? THE WITNESS: A . Yes . Q. And Negroes are not allowed to attend things that go on at the Coliseum, is that right? MR. WATKINS: We object to that. That’s a matter of State law if it is a matter of law. It would certainly require some State, - authorized State official to express policy if it’s not by law. THE COURT: I’ll let him answer what he knows about the facts. Mayor Thompson, 1743 . THE WITNESS: A. I donTt know the actual facts, what the State - what they do in the Coliseum. MRS. MORRIS: Q. You dontt know whether or not Negroes are allowed to attend things at the Coliseum? A. No, I don’t know. Q. ThatTs your testimony? A . That*s right . MRS. MORRIS: I have no further questions. MR. BELL: We would now like to recall Attorney Jack Young. MR. JACK YOUNG having been previously sworn, took the stand and testified as follows : MR. BELL: Q. Your name, sir? A. Jack H. Young. Q. And you previous ly testified in this case? A. Yes , I did. Q. And at that time did you or did you not testify that you are an attorney, a Negro attorney in Jackson, and have defended a great number of these persons who have been arrested as a result of participation in civil rights activities? J . Yo ung, 1744 . Q. Now, were you present during yesterday’s hearing at which time Defendants offered and had admitted into evidence a number of exhibits constituting abstracts of the action taken by the local Courts in the prosecutions of some of these persons arrested for civil rights demonstrations? A. Yes, I was. Q. You will recall, I believe, that those were Defendants’ Exhibits 20 through, roughly through 50? A . Right. Q. Now, as to a number of those exhibits, do you recall that the abstracts indicated that there had been directed ver dicts of acquittal, or the individuals were found not guilty? A . Yes, I do . Q. In these cases had you followed the procedure that you testified to before, namely, of raising constitutional questions concerning their right to protest? A. Yes, we had. Q. Now, in some other cases, notably Defendants’ Exhibit 25, concerning Ruth Bracey, arrested May 30, 1963 and who plead nolo contendere and was fined $250.00, had a jail term suspended^ concerning Exhibit 28, which was the abstract of the action taken against Mrs. Bennie Lee Catchings, wherein it showed that she had plead nolo contendere, paid the cost and had a jail fine sus pended; concerning Exhibit 45, the prosecution of Betty Poole, A. Yes, I did. J . Young, 1745 . wherein it indicated that she had plead nolo contendere and paid the costs and had a jail fine suspended. Now, can you tell the Court what was the reason for, in these cases, pleading these persons nolo contendere? A. Well, — MR. WATKINS: We object to why pleas were entered. The record of What happened is all that is admissable in evidence, I submit. MR. BELL: This is a little surprising, — I think that anything that bears on cases, if it were admitted, I think we have a right to explain the circumstances. THE COURT: 1*11 let him explain. Overrule the objection. THE WITNESS: A. These cases were on appeal to County Court and a num- ber of the defendants are, - when the cases came up for trial on County Court, had not appeared, and by agreement with counsel and Court, we had been permitted to enter pleas of nolo conten dere for these people who had not appeared, - had not appeared for various and sundry reasons. Some of the addresses had been changed, some of them had moved out of the city. We notify all of these people by mail when the trials are supposed to be had. Most of them appear, some of them don*t appear; some of the letters come back and we aren’t able to find the people. Now, J . Young, 1746 . what happened in these particular cases, did not appear and for that reason pleas were entered. I canTt say, but they of nolo contendere THE COURT: Betty Poole, you knew where she was didn’t you? THE WITNESS: A. She was at Tougaloo . Now, why she did not appear, I am not able to say, but she didn’t appear in Court at the time the case was set for trial. THE COURT: Q. She didn’t appear in response to your notice? A. To our notice, that’s right. MR. BELL: Q. I’ll ask you to tell the Court whether or not in — approximately, if you know, how many such nolo contendere pleas you have had to make while defending these cases on appeal in County Court? A. Well, frankly, I’m not able to give an exact number, but I would say that perhaps a third of the persons who have been scheduled for trial have not appeared. Q. Now, tell the Court whether or not any efforts have been made to improve the system of notifying the defendants what day they are to appear, what Court, so as to reduce this A. When the defendants were arraigned, the trial dates were set. They are set, I think, seven a week, seven or eight a J . Young, 1747 . week and they are returnable on the Monday of that week, set for call on the Monday of that week, at which time all folks that are supposed to be tried during that week are supposed to appear. Now, they were given these trial dates when they were arraigned. So, of course, they had that notice. About one or two weeks prior to the trial, we send out letters from my office renotify ing them to appear. We have found that that does not work very effectively, so now we have adopted the system of writing letters and in addition to that, going around personally and contacting these people to remind them, and if need be, to transport them to the Court . Q. I’ll ask you whether or not some of the folk who had not appeared had, - or had not indicated later their lack of appearance was due to not knowing that this was the day that they were to come into Court — A. Well, we had some instances where people said that they did not get notices. We had one or two instances where people were actually in the Courthouse, but were in the wrong place, and when they showed up it was too late, the Court was o ver. Q. Now, I ask you to recall, if you can, Defendants* Exhibit 34, concerning the action taken in the case of Reverend Ralph Edwin King, where he was arrested on a disturbance of the peace charge on, - I think the record will show the date, I*m not sure exactly what it was, and that a guilty plea was entered J . Young, 1748 . for him. Can you explain the circumstances of that? A. When Reverend King was arrested, this was on the date I believe of the funeral of Medgar Evers. Reverend King, along with several other persons were arrested. We posted cash appear ance bonds for these persons and made no Court appearance. The bonds were forfeited. Q. Was it the intention of counsel to plead Reverend King and the other persons on that date guilty of the charges for which they were arrested? A. It was our intention for any person who did not appear to enter pleas of nolo contendere for them, but in this case we forfeited the bond and we made no appearance at all in the City Court. Q. In all of these cases, has it been the policy where you didnTt have the procedural problems that you have been talk ing about to raise constitutional questions in the defense of these persons at their trial? A. Well, that has been, - you see, these people have been tried under Section 594, or rather Ordinance 594 of the City of Jackson, which is an ordinance which prohibits parading, under a Section 208715, I believe, of the Mississippi Code, which is the breach of the peace statute, under 2296.5, I believe, which is obstructing public streets and sidewalks, and under another statute, I believe it is 2409, I*m not certain about that, which has to do with entering a place of business and refusing to leave J . Young, 1749 . on orders to do so by the proprietor. In all of these cases, it is our position that the statutes themselves are unconstitutional, both on their face and in their application, so in each instance when we try these cases, we raise the constitutional issues or questions . Q. I think you testified before, did you not, that all of these cases were handled at the local level by yourself and two other attorneys, is that right? A. That is right. MR. BELL: No further questions. MR. NICHOLS: Q. Attorney Young, you stated on your first examination here several days ago, you are an active practitioner of law here in the City of Jackson, is that right? A . Yes, I am. Q. You are fully familiar with the operation of the City, County, and Circuit Courts? A . Yes, I am. Q. And with the method by which one appeals from a ver dict of the City Court to the County Court, and from the County Court to the Circuit Court, and on up to the Supreme Court of Mississippi? A. Yes, lam. Q. Those appeal statutes and all? J . You n g , 1750 . Q. Now, with reference to Exhibits 25, 28, and 45, that being Bracey, Catchings, and Poole, you stated to your counsel that these were cases that were called and these people did not appear, is that right? A . ThatT s right Q. And as a result of that, you entered a nolo contendere plea? A. Yes, l a m . A. ThatTs right. Q. Now, was that the only alternative available to you at that time? A. It was either that or the bond would be forfeited. Q. In other words, if you had entered no plea and your client had not been there, then the State would have called your bond, is that correct? A. The State would have either had to call the bond or try the cases in absentia. Q. In any of these cases that you have been involved in here, have any of these exhibits been tried in absentia? A. No . Q. So, we might assume that the only other method would be the forfeit of the bond? A. I think that would be correct. Q. And you are familiar with the State law that the first thing you have to take is what is known as a judgment nisi, is J . Young, 1751 . that correct? Q. And that gives you a full term of Court in which to get your client in, isn’t that right? A . Correct . Q. Has it not been the policy of the County Court of the First Judicial District of Hinds County that should you bring any of your clients in, that you then move to set the nisi aside and that the Court has as a policy set those aside for you? A. That has been done. Q. Now, so, at this point, it is a matter of your choice as to whether to enter a plea or whether to take another full month to find your client, is that correct? A . Yes . Q. So out of choice, you entered nolo contendere pleas, is that correct? A . That’s right. Q. Now, with the matter of Exhibit 34, dealing with the Reverend Edwin King, you have posted bonds in the City Court before? A. That’s correct. Q. And you have posted them since, I believe? A . Correct . Q. And, do you not know, and is it not true, that the cash bond carries with it a plea of guilty unless the party enters A . Correct . J . Young 1752 . his appearance and changes that plea? A. I am aware of the fact. Q. So, actually what Reverend King did was plead guilty and put up a bond, which was forfeited when he did not appear? A. Actually he did not plead guilty. I posted the cash bond and the Court entered the plea of guilty. Q. Yes, but when I say he, Attorney Young, you represent ing him at the time, did this as his agent in legal matters and so forth? A. Right, I posted the bond. Q. Now, you stated that approximately one-third of these persons did not appear when their cases were called? A . That* s ri ght . Q. Now, is it not true that, without exception, or practically every one of these people were arraigned on a day at which they actually appeared in Court? A. That is correct. Q. And that their cases were set and that they, indivi dually, were notified in open Court that their cases would be tried on a certain date, is that not correct? A. That is correct. Q. Now, you don*t mean to tell this Court that it is the fault of the County Court or the fault of the prosecution that these don*t appear when they know that their cases are going to be tried on a particular date, do you? J . Young 1753 . Q. What did you say? A. I have never made the statement that these folks have failed to appear through some fault of the Court . A. I did not say that. Q. Or the prosecution? A. Or the prosecution, no. Q. Then they knew they were set up for trial and if they didn’t get there it was more or less their own fault? A. That’s correct. Q. I mean it’s not yours, you notified them? A. I notified them, correct. Q. So these are just normal things that happen in the practice of law, aren’t they? A. I suppose you would have to say that. MR . NICHOLS: MR. BELL: I believe that’s all, Your Honor. Q. As a matter of fact, Attorney Young, in some instances after the trial they were given at the time of arraignment, have trial dates been changed, necessitating new notices going out from time to time? A. Yes, trial dates have been changed, but none of those folks have failed to appear whose trial dates have been changed. Q. After the other two attorneys, what are their names who helped you with these cases? J . Young 1754 . Q. Are they both Negro attorneys? A . Yes, they are. MR. BELL: No further questions. We have only a few other minor matters to clear up, Your Honor. You will recall when we were in the newspaper clipping phase of the case, we had offered as a final exhibit of this type, a group of newspaper clippings of the proceedings of this trial, as reported by the two papers with daily circula tion, the Jackson Daily News and the Clarion Ledger. Counsel for the Defendants objected and y®u sustained the objection to those clippings on the basis that you thought they were irrele vant, I believe, and also you didn’t need the newspapers for, — you said you had the record of the case. Nevertheless, we wanted to have them marked for identification and you indicated that at the conclusion of the trial, we would be able to do that. I have here for that exhibit for identification a group of the clippings, which is short only the clippings from this morning’s paper and the paper that will come out this after noon, and I would like at this time to request permission to add those two clippings to it and bring it to the clerk’s office this afternoon so that it could be marked for identification for the purposes as indicated. A. Carsie A. Hall and R. Jess Brown. MR. WATKINS: 1755 . We would object to its being offered in evidence, Your Honor. MR • BELL: Yes, I want to make clear that they had objected and you had sustained their objection to having this admitted in evidence, Your Honor. THE COURT: Well, what is it you want to do then? MR. BELL: I just wanted to make sure to remind you that we did have this additional exhibit for identification that had not yet been handed up and it is under Rule 43, and I will bring it in as soon as it is completed this afternoon. THE COURT: The objection is still sustained. I have a reporter; I think the newspapers are just fine, they are sitting over here in the box and you can call one of them as a witness if you want to, but we are not going to put newspapers in a record in this Court . MR. BELL: All right, Your Honor. Next, we would like to offer two amendments to the prayer of count 1 of the complaint, pursuant to Rule 15 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedures and, to make it clear, I have set out the Section of the Article —— 17 56 . I just don’t want to stop this case to take up motions. Are you resting? MR. BELL: THE COURT: Yes, this is just in the final, - we have no more t estimony. THE COURT: Then the Plaintiffs rest? MR. BELL: Yes . THE COURT: Does the Defense have anything further? MR. WATKINS: No sir. THE COURT: All right, now you want to call up this motion, do you? MR . BELL: Yes, Your Honor. I think I have set it forth here in fairly self-explanatory fashion. The additions and dele tions that we wanted to make; — two paragraph in the prayer, count 1 of the complaint. MR . WATKINS: If it please the Court, as far as the City Officials are concerned, we object to these amendments as not being 17 5 7 . justified by any of the evidence offered in this case and not having been entirely made, and we submit that amendments of this kind, at this time are improper under the evidence offered in the case. THE COURT: All right, 1*11 overrule the objection and allow the amendments to be made in accordance with the motion. MR. BELL: And so I can prepare, insofar as the Court — an order to that effect? THE COURT: Yes. MR. BELL: Thank you. We have nothing further, Your Honor. MR. McLENDON: May it please the Court, Mr. Watkins included that City Officials only, I would like to register the objection of the State Officials to the amendment. THE COURT : Amendments are allowed very liberally in Federal Court in all stages of the case, even after the conclusion of the case, to conform with the evidence and in view of that policy, 1*11 overrule the objection. MR. BELL: Now, I guess we really - we have no more, Your Honor 1758 . I guess this would be the appropriate time to talk in terms of your wishes, what would be helpful to you as far as briefs are concerned . THE COURT : Well, do you want to make an oral argument? MR. BELL: I think not, Your Honor, unless you feel that it would be helpful. I think you indicated at the beginning that you thought that you were hearing the evidence and that was going to be most helpful to you. I think for our part we would probably prepare — supply the Court with perhaps suggested findings of facts and conclusions of law and a brief on the merits of the case. THE COURT: All right, do you want to argue it after you have briefed it? MR. BELL: I would leave it to the Court. If the Court thought it would be helpful, why I certainly would be willing to — THE COURT: ITm never going to tell a client what his duty or responsibility is because I think that*s very largely as he feels it. Frankly, I always thought it as much my duty to make an argument as I did to appear. I have seen a lot of judges who didn*t agree with that. Some of them are very vocal about it 1759. and kind of violent. When Judge Griffith was on the bench he took the position that it was kind of an affront to him, that you thought he wouldn’t read what you wrote or something, but I don’t feel that way about it. MR. BELL: In that case, I would very much like to prepare and make an oral argument, which I think would be of more value after we got some of this mass of evidence in some sort of organized fa shion. THE COURT: Well, how much time do you want to brief it? MR . BELL: I believe that the Court Reporter is going to be able to have the transcript of the proceedings ready in fairly short order, — would you indicate that perhaps by the end of next week? THE REPORTER: I would say two weeks from now. THE COURT: Well, I want to remind you as a practical proposition that this thing gets colder and colder with me as time runs on and I shan’t ever usurp the function of an Appellant Judge to read a record. I’ll read parts and take references to records, but I’m not going to read this stuff. That’s the reason I sit here, otherwise I might have been doing something else while this was taking place. I’ve got very extensive notes that are very 1760 . meaningful to me and the quicker we have this argument, the more helpful it will be to me. MR . BELL: Well, whatever would be — THE COURT: Well, if you want two weeks, that’s all right. MR. BELL: I thought we would be able to document the thing and prepare the findings, or suggested findings, and things of this nature — would be of some aid THE COURT: I would think you could do that. How much time do you want, Mr. Watkins? MR. WATKINS: Your Honor, do I understand that at some unsuggested date thus far, they are going to submit a brief and then are we to reply or should we submit a brief simultaneously? THE COURT: Well, I invite independent briefs because if I ask for responsive briefs, that’s a further delay in the matter. MR . WATKINS: Your Honor, I think what counsel had in mind was that it would be helpful for him to have the transcript to write his brief. I concur in that. I took notes too, but sometimes I wasn’t able to take notes when I was questioning a witness. 1761 . I r eali ze that . MR. WATKINS: And so I would suggest that we each say to the Court that we will submit our brief to the Court within two weeks after we get the transcript of the evidence, and that we will then suggest; to the Court, or ask the Court to suggest to us, when he would like to hear oral arguments on this. THE COURT: All right. And you would gear your briefs then to the record and make references in your briefs to places in the record? MR. WATKINS: Yes sir. THE COURT: I’ll certainly read that, but I won’t read the whole record . MR. BELL: Oh no, we didn’t expect you to, but I thought it would be better if we could make reference to the record. THE COURT: All right, then just make a note, please mam, that independent briefs will be filed two weeks after a copy of the record is filed with the Court. THE COURT: MR. BELL: 1762 . We have nothing further, Your Honor. All right, Court will stand in recess. (This concluded the hearing on Friday morning, February 28, 1964.) COURT REPORTEii* S CERTIFICATE State of Mississippi County of Hinds I, Meta Nicholson, Official Court Reporter of the Oil and Gas Board, Jackson, Mississippi, certify that I was called in to take the official record in the Federal Court at Jackson, Mississippi, of the N»A.A«C»P., etc* vs. Mayor Allen Thompson, etc., beginning on February 3, 1964, running through February 4, 5, 6, 1964, then adjourning and taking up again the same case on February 27, 1964, and going through the morning of February 28, 1964, - I certify that I have so taken down the above proceedings at those times and in that place, in shorthand, and tape-recorded the same, and have had the same typed up under my supervision, and the foregoing pages, 1 through 1368, both inclusive, are a true and correct copy of the testimony so taken, to the very best of my ability. Witness my signature and seal, this 12th day of March, 1964* THE COURTS 1763 CERTIFICATE OF PRINTER PREPARING RECORD I, Meta Nicholson, of the M &• R Reporting Service, Jackson, Mississippi, certify to the best of my skill and ability I have prepared the record foregoing for the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans, and that this is a full designated copy of the record, as it was sent to me by the Clerk of Court of the Fifth Circuit in New Orleans, and that I have this day sent out by mail the copies as required by law, this the day of September, 1964