Mapp Et Al v Board of Education of the City of Chattanooga TN Joint Appendix Volume II
Public Court Documents
January 1, 1962 - January 1, 1971
645 pages
Cite this item
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Mapp Et Al v Board of Education of the City of Chattanooga TN Joint Appendix Volume II, 1962. 63677302-bd9a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/989a0d63-1ad4-437b-8159-98a407c63ce6/mapp-et-al-v-board-of-education-of-the-city-of-chattanooga-tn-joint-appendix-volume-ii. Accessed April 22, 2025.
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IN THE
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE SIXTH CIRCUIT
Nos.712006 and 712007
— |
JAMES JONOTHAN MAPP ET AL.,
Plaintiffs-Appellants and
Cross-Appellees
1.
versus
BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE CITY OF
CHATTANOOGA,TENN. ET AL.,
Defendants-Appellees and
Cross-Appellants
ON APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR
THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE SOUTHERN DIVISION
JOINT APPENDIX - VOLUME II
RAYMOND B.WITT,ESQ.
Witt.Gaither,Abernathy
̂& Wilson
1100 American National
B^nk Building
Chattanooga,Tenn.37402
EUGENE COLLINS, ESQ.
Pioneer Building
Chattanooga, Tenn.
AVON N. WILLIAMS, JR. ESQ.
Suite 1414 Parkway Towers
404 James Robertson Parkway
Nashville, Tenn. 37219
JACK GREENBERG, ESQ.
JAMES M. NABRIT,III, ESQ.
NORMAN J. CHACHKIN, ESQ.
SYLVIA DREW, ESQ.
Suite 2030
10 Columbus Circle
New York, New York 10019
Attorneys for Attorneys for Plaintiffs-Appellants
Defendants-Appellees and Cross-Appellees
and Cross-Appellants
i
1 I M S £ £
w i t n e s s e s DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
4
Robert Armstrong Taylor 9 128 1 m
5
<> £ £ M 1 £ 1 X £
EXHIBIT FOR FOR
NUMBER DESCRIPTION XPERT. W M jl
H 1 Map labelad No. 1 Dual Zones. 13
elementary schools. 1962-63.
yhli-a elementary. 1962-63.
10 grades through 5 and 6.
11 2 Map far 8th and 9th grades in
whif« junior high schools in
15
12 ' 65- * 66.
13 3 Compilation of statistical
reports on pupil desegregation
19 19
14 in 1970-71.
15 4 Map of the elementary single
zones for 1962-63.
22
Id 5 Map showing the change in the 23
17 elementary school zone, single
zone in 1963-64 with the change
18 in *64-* 65.
10 7 Compilation of changes in the
single sane of the junior high
and elementary single sane in
28 28
20 1962-63 to the present by year.
21 8 Hap entitled 1965—66 with change 35 35
22 to 1966-67
9 Map showing the single sene 60 60
changes for elementary schools
24 for the year 1967-68.
10 Map showing change of zone from 62 622i) 1964— 65 to 1965—66.
R i c h a r d ft C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T I N D A L E - H U B B E L L
I
ii
EXHIBITS - (Continued)
EXHIBIT PGR PGR
HUMBER DESCRIFTIOB i s m
4 11 Map shoving 1967-68 with changes 69 69
to 1968-69.
(>
12 Map of single aoiw i" ^rY school
effective In 1968-69 with changes
75 75
in 1969-70.
13 Map showing changes frost 1969-70 78 78
8 to 1970-71
9 14 Map of single sons junior high school 81 81
10
applicable to the 7th grade in 1965-66.
11
12
15
is
16 Single zoos nap of the junior high
grades as changed in 1967-68.
87 87
14
15
17 Map showing changes of junior high
schools in 1967-68 to 1968-69.
94 94
18 Map showing changes of junior high 94 94
Hi schools in 1968-69 to 1969-70.
17
18
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19 Map showing changes frost 1969-70
to 1970-71.
97 97
20 Pupil Locator Map— Seoond Grade. 106 106
*>() 21 Pupil Locator Map— Seventh Grade. 106 106
* > 1 22 Tenth day enrol Intent date 1970-71. 108 108
• >• »
23 Map* Kirtanan High School 114 114
* {
24 Map, Brainerd High School 114 114
*» 1 25
Map# Chattanooga High School 120 120
26 Map, Howard High School 122 122
27 Map, Riverside High School 124 124
R i c h a r d 6 O a s e v B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s ^ 1 C e r t i f i e d s h o r t h a n d r e p o r t e r s ^
R E F E R E N C E M A R T •N O A L E - H U B B E L L
I N D E X
Witness Page
ROBERT ARMSTRONG TAYLOR
Cross Examination by Mr. Williams icont.)...... 214
Redirect Examination by Mr. Witt...... ......... 342
Recross Examination by Mr. Williams............. 404
EXHIBITS
For In
No. Description Id. Evd.
23 List of portable classrooms as of
April 13, 1971 322 322
29 Data on county pupils attending
city schools 331 331
30 Memorandum prepared by Mr.
Taylor 343 343
31 Alton Park-St. Elmo area,
elementary schools 347 347
32 Alton Park-St. Elmo area,
elementary dual zone 347 347
33 Map of single tones of grades one
through four in 1963-64 371 371
34 Map of dual zones in elementary
grades 371 371
35 Dual zone with Negro pupils,
grades five and six, 1963-64 372 372
R I C H A R D S M I T H O P T I C i A L C O U R T R £ P O R T k. H
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
I N D E X
witfle3s page
i.
ROBERT ARMSTRONG TAYLOR
Redirect Examination by Mr. Witt............. 438
JACK CARR
Direct Examination by Mr. Witt............... 445
Cross Examination by Mr. Williams............ 505
Redirect Examination by Mr. Witt............. 570
Recross Examination by Mr. Williams.......... 579
Redirect Examination by Mr. Witt............. 588
TOM MARK BLACK
Direct Examination by Mr. Witt............... 589
Cross Examination by Mr. Williams............ 611
Redirect Examination by Mr. Witt............. 629
Recross Examination by Mr. Williams.......... 638
Redirect Examination by Mr. Witt............. 642
EXHIBITS
Por In
No. Description Id. Evd.
36 Guidance material, Kirkman Technical
School 451 451
37 "Vocational Education Program" 457 457
38 Curriculum guide, Riverside High School 475 475
39 "Court Offerings in the High Schools
of Chattanooga Public Schools" 483 483
40 Guidance material, Chattanooga High
School 486 486
41 "Chattanooga High School Information
for Pupils" 489 489
42 Program of studies and graduation
requirements, Brainerd High School 489 489
Ml> H A R O S M l I H ( . M i l *1 C O U N I H M ' O N O M
U N H I D S T A T E S O ' S T R l C T C O U R T
I X
I
1 I N D E X (continued)
EXHIBITS (continued)
For In
— -
Description Id. Evd.
43 "Story of Kirkman Tech" 496 496
44
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"Chattanooga Public Schools, Grades
Ten through Twelve, Vocational
Education Enrollment, 1970-71" 499 499
45
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Breakdown of 129 black students
enrolled in Kirkman High School by
course 567 567
; 46 1970-71 Committee Report on Follow
up of High School Graduates 608 608
47
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Report furnished by Chattanooga school
system to U. S. Department of Health,
Education, and Welfare dated October
16, 1970 624 624
| 48 Identification of counselors at each
school by race 625 625
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IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
EASTERN DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE
SOUTHERN DIVISION
1 1
m s u -gfc-JLU
vs.
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION Of THE
CITY OF CHATTANOOGA. HAMIL33N
COUNTY. TENNESSEE. Qt ftl.
Qs&aadaatM*.
CIVIE ACTION
NO. 3564
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS;
Avon N. Williams, Jr., Esq.. and Julian
Blackahear, Esq., 1414 Parkway Towers,
Nashville, Tennessee, 37219
Raymond B. Witt. Jr.. Esq., John T. Hanoia. Esq.,
and William Frank. Brown, Esq., of Witt, Gaither,
Abernathy and Wilson, Esqrs.. American National
Bank Building, Chattanooga, Tennessee, 37402
Wednesday, April 14, 1971
BE IT REMEMBERED, the above-entitled cause came
on for further hearing on this date before the Honorable
Frank W. Wilson, Judge of said Court, when the fall taring
further proceedings were had and evidence introduced, to—wit:
R i c h a r d & C a s e y b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T N U A L E - H U B B f c L L
2
THE COURT: Gentlemen, we are holding court this
naming in chambers but I want everyone to feel free to come
and go as if we were in the courtroom. Judge Koel Fax of
Grand Rapids, Michigan, is here trying a jury esse in the
courtroom and we did not have any other facilities for con
ducting this trial, other than here in my chambers, but I
went it to be understood, of course, that this is a public
hearing and that anyone who wishes to come and go or to sit
and hear the trial is welcome.
Now, Mr. Williams called me on Saturday and
advised it® of his personal problem in serving in the Legis
lature and other commitments that he had and Indicated that
he would like to have some additional tire in presenting the
evidence in this case. As X understood, he and Mr. Witt
have been conferring about this.
MR. WITT: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: And I suggested that we proceed
today and see what we can hear today, hear what you have
prepared to present today and foll<M#ing that we will select
a date ec*..e time at a mutually convenient time to all parties
to complete the hearing. Do I understand that is satisfactory
with counsel?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, your Honor. I believe so.
MR. WITT: Satisfactory with the defendant, your
Honor.
R i c h a r d & C » s t v B s m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T " 1 E O S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R I N O A L E - M U 8 B E L L
3
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court. I have
a preliminary Ratter that I would like to address to the
Court at such time as the Court deems appropriate*
THE COURT: Just a moment, gentlemen* Suppose
that we start first by having counsel identify themselves
for the record in the case that will be participating in the
hearing.
MR. WILLIAMS: Avon N. Williams. Jr., counsel
for the plaintiffs, and, if your Honor please, I should like
to introduce to the Court at this time Mr. Julian BI act shear,
who is a native of Chattanooga and a recent graduate of the
University of Tennessee Law School and has passed and been
admitted to the Tennessee Bar. He is practicing in my office,
a member of my one-man law firm. He has not been admitted
to practice here but I should like to request the Court's
permission that he be permitted to assist me in connection
with this proceeding.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS: And he hopes to apply for arimisalon
to the practice before this Court.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WITT: Raymond a. Witt, Jr., John T. Henniss
and Frank Brawn, counsel for the defendants.
THE COURT: All right. How, gentlemen, do either
of you care to make an opening statement before we proceed
R i c h a r d a C a s l y b S m « t h a n o A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N O R E P O R T E R S
R E F E H t N r . E M A R T i N D A L E H U 8 B E I . L
4
thus rooming?
MR. WILLIAMS: I do not. it your Honor piam>.
I have still another preliminary matter that I would like to
address to the Court, however.
THE COURT: Very well. Yes?
MR. WILLIAMS: That relates to the presence of
expert witnesses in the courtroom. I also have with me
Dr. Scott Kester. whom I hope to use as an expert witness in
the case. With the permission of the Court I should like to
have him sit at counsel table with me and the plaintiff and
have the rule waived, if counsel has no objection.
MR. WITT: We have no objection.
MR. WILLIAMS: It will be a mutual arrangement
where his experts axe concerned.
THE COURT: All right. Are we ready to proceed
then by calling the first witness? Is there any preliminary
statoi.ient you wish to make on behalf of the School Board?
MR. WITT: May it please the Court, it is my
understanding and we are prepared to carry the proof this
morning and introduce the first witness in accordance with
the Court's order.
THE COURT: Ail right.
MR. WITT: Call Mr. Bob Taylor, Robert Taylor.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please your Honor, before
we begin with this witness there are some other preliminary
R i c h a r d ft C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R F H O R T E R S
R E E f c R t N t E M A R T r . . ' A L t M U B B E L L
matters that I had intended to bring to your Honor's
attention and failed to do so.
X had some subpoenas issued Monday for certain
documents, with the Court's permission I would like to find
out_i was handed as I came in the courtroom this morning a
i.totion by the defendants to modify the subpoena as to. 1
presume as to ^h ** superintendent of the school system.
I v>*ri also issued subpoenas as to certain other
parties, including the Director of the Planning Commission
and the Director of the Chattanooga Housing Authority.
I should like to ascertain whether or not all
of thA*** persons are here and whether they have with them
the documents that we requested and as to the defendants'
laotion to modify the subpoena on the Superintendent. I don t
know whether the Court would feel disposed to dispose of that
before we begin or not or at some time Airing the day. I am
bringing this up because I should like to ascertain the
status of the response to the subpoena.
THE COURT: Yea. That notion was not called to
my attention until late last evening and I have not had an
opportunity to study it.
HR. WITT: well, may it please the Court, we
received the subpoena about three o'clock Monday afternoon
and we responded to it the next day and I think it would
probably be appropriate at this time for me to respond with
5
R i c h a r d a C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T ' N O A L E • H U B B E L L
6
reference to that part of the wihpoona that is directed to
Or. Henry.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WITT: We have present available in the court
with reference to his subpoena Item No. 1, a composite, wall*
there are maps for 1962, *63. *64, '65, '66, we have not,
in direct response to this hut in partial response to this,
we have the dual zones for elementary schools as they existed
inxnediately preceding the first year of desegregation of the
entire elementary schools.
We also have available the dual zones for the
last year in these zones were effective with reference
to junior high school.a. they are available.
We also have the school zones for elementary
schools and junior high* for 1965-66 to the present •
A requested pupil locater map for the entire
school system of Chattanooga, those are not available, have
not been prepared, but we do have pupil locater maps that
were already prepared and were already available with
reference to the second grade, the seventh grade the tenth
grade and they are available in the court but it is not s
complete response to his subpoena because they were not
available and I think it would be apparent that the prepara
tion of these maps requires a substantial amount of time.
New, with reference to his Item No. 3, a list of
R i c h a r d ft C a s e y B S m i t h a n o A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E I - t r H I N i E . M AR 7 I N D A I F . - H U B B E L L
1
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all changes in echool zones since 1960, describing the
changes, those are available but we would question the
appropriateness or the relevance of the use of this informa
tion prior to the school year '65-*66, as would be true with
some other abjections that we would make and that is that
these facts relate to circumstances existent prior to the
last hearing in this case and prior to the time that the
decision of this Court was appealed to the Circuit Court of
Appeals and, therefore, in a sense we are saying that those
facts have already been litigated and they are not appropriate
at the present time.
with regard to criteria for reasons for student
transfers in effect, that information is available- We have
available in the court the individual applications and
records with reference to transfers since 1966-67.
with reference to these records prior to that
time we are again objecting on the theory that these ware
previously subpoenaed prior to the hearing in 1965 and ware
present in the court on that date and were not used and that
we are not required to produce these records, as we see it,
prior to the time of the previous hearing.
Now. with regard to his No. 5, this is the
individual applications, I beg your pardon, 4 referred to
criteria, which we have, 5 requested the individual applica
tions for each student transfer, but we do have those in the
R i c h a r d A C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T : I EI J S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A P T N O A l E M U B B F I L
8
courtroom and they a n available and the person voo la
responsible for these transfers is available to testify.
ItSB 6, they did a good job yesterday at the
school Board and that answer is available in court.
At the tine that I prepared the objections or
the notion to modify the subpoena I did not know whether
they would be able to secure that information that quickly
or not.
With response to Item 7, this information will
be available during the course of the testimony.
THE COURT: Suppose we proceed, gentlemen, and
then at the conclusion of tbs day if there appears to be
additional information that you desire* why. we can take it
up at that time.
MR. WILLIAMS: All right. May it please tbs
Court, may I say that our contention with regard to counsel * s
contention as to the relevance or non-relevance of information
prior to 1965-66 is that the Court of Appeals in affirming
your Honor* a decision, in affirming that 1965 decision,
affirmed it on the basis that we had not developed in this
court a broad gauged attack, which we now seek to develop
t ' (
by our pleadings and. so to say. that that information is
not relevant would be to negate the effect of the decision
of the Court of Appeals.
THE COURT: All right.
v ■#' >
R i c h a r d A C a s > E v B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E N T M E O S H O P ! ►••Ann HE P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T N D A I . I H U B B t u L
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Taylor - Direct 9
MR. WITT* Mr. Taylor, will you tala the stand.
please?
May it please the Court, we have a series of maps
and I su concerned shout the location of these maps because*
Mr. Taylor will be testifying from these maps and I don't
know exactly where to locate them so that everyone can see
them.
THE COURT* Well, work out your physical arrange
ment any way you wish.
MR. WITT* Is that convenient? Can you see it
from there?
MR. WILLIAMS* It is fine with me.
MR. WITT: That is all right here.
THE COURT* Well, if you could set it right
behind the Clerk and everyone could see, including those in
the audience.
RfiBSKX ABttaaaflEL I & U S L
a witness called at the instance of the defendants, being
first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows*
DIRECT EXAMINATION
py
w Would you please state your name in full?
A Robert Armstrong Taylor.i'
Q What is your present employment?
A I au assistant to the Superintendent for planning,
R i c h a r d A C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I f I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T •N O A L E H U B B F L L
Taylor - Direct 10
research and evaluation.
u Of the Chattanooga School System?
I
A Chattanooga Public Schools*
Q How long have you been employed in the Chattanooga
Public School System?
A I was employed first an February the 1st, 1946,
25 years and a month.
Q were you at one time the principal of Kirkman
Technical School?
A Yes, 1949 through 1961.
(j What was your—
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) May it please the
Court, I am not hearing Mr. Taylor very well, although he
is close.
A 1 will wind up the volume a little.
MR. WILLIAMS: Did you say 1949?
THE WITNESS: 1949, in August of 1949 through
the end of the school year 1961, twelve years.
q What responsibility did you shift to in 1961?
A To the central office as a staff member of the
coordination of vocational and adult education.
0 Would you describe briefly that responsibility?
A It was both supervisory and administrative,
vocational education has many aspects of compliance with
state regulations and some federal through the state and
R i c h a r d tk C a s f v B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I I 1C O S H O R T H A N D R T M O R T t R S
R E F F H T N C F M A f l l N I l A L E H U B B U . L
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Taylor - Direct 11 i
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financing the different structure* frees the regular mi»**«■»»
program, so we had the contract in that phase of it so that
we followed that and then the supervision of the program that
is carried out in our city schools.
• I
Q When did you first become an assistant superin
tendent to the Chattanooga Public School System?
A June of 1962— '63.
U As an assistant superintendent?
A Sixty-two was the time, the school year of *62-'63,
U As an assistant superintendent did you participate
to any degree in the design of the single school zones that
were designed and put into effect originally in the fall of
1962-63?
A I did not have a responsibility in the designing
of the single school zone. My role at that year was in
vocational education. The implementation of the *62-'63, 1
was in a different role and as an assistant superintendent
for general attain i stration and it fell under that division
to implement the decision of the single zones.
q Have you had any continuing responsibility with
reference to the implementation of the single school zones?
A Through February the 15th, 1969, at this time my
responsibility ceased in that area.
q In the implementation of the single school zones
was it your responsibility to either supervise or to be aware
R i c h a r d ft C * b t v B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I I I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
O E E f R N C E M A R I N O A L E H I I B B E I . I .
Taylor - Direct 12
of and responsible for the preparation of various statistical 1
data and map# with reference to zoning?
, I
A That is correct.
U In your checking of the records did you discover
a map that indicated the dual school zones existent with
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reference to elementary schools prior to the desegregation
of the first elementary schools?
A I didn't understand your question. Counselor,
g I hand you a map that is labeled Ho. 1 Dual
Zones, Elementary Schools. 1962-63; white elementary. 1962-63,
grades through 5 and 6.
Do you recognize this sap?
A Yes, sir.
q How was it prepared and for what purpose?
A This was an operational map that was used by the
persons in my division that had direct responsibility for
implementing the single zone and the dual zone map in 62-63,
16 schools went to the single, the other schools remained
dual 1 through 3 for that given year and in '62-'63 all
schools went to the single zone 1 through 4, although Grades
5 and 6 remained on this map, so this was the operational
map for the Grades 5 and 6 in the year *62-'63, then it went
out of existence.
g Since this map is for white elementary schools
for the year 1962-63, it was used only for the fifth and
R i c h a r d a C a s e v b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T i I i E D S H O R T i A N O R f P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R U N D A L E H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 13
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sixth grade* in formerly all white schools.
A On this aid*, ye*.
u And than this i* the last remaining map with
reference to the dual sane* that existed in 1962-63?
A To my knowledge, that is correct.
THE COURT: Exhibit No. 1.
THE WITNESS: On the back side.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, could
this be an exhibit for identification pending? So the Court
will understand, this is the first time we have had an
opportunity to see this.
THE COURT: Exhibit No. 1 for identification.
(The map referred to above was marked
Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)
THE COURT: Now you are referring to one side
of the exhibit or to both sides?
MR. WITT: I am going to the next side. The next
side is another map for another purpose, it will be another
exhibit.
THE COURT: All right.
p x m m
<u Now, Mr. Taylor, I will turn the map over and
direct your attention to that side which is labeled
"Subpoena of materials, No. 1 Dual Zones, Elementary School*.
1962-63, Negro Elementary Schools."
R i c h a r d A Cast* B S m i t h a n o A s s o c i a t e s
a r t m it o s M o w r i « 4Nrj ( h i p o r t e r s
h F H - R I N ( . K M A R I •■IDA.I-K H U B B E L L
Taylor Direct 14
Would you identify this map?
A Yes. sir.
Q What is it?
A It is a map that was used toy attendance centers
for the black children of that year. Grades 5 and 6. for
•62-‘63.
0 Has there been any further use of this mjy? since
1962-63 except for historical purposes?
A Hot to my knowledge.
THE COURT: This still will be Exhibit Mo. 1 for
identification, it is just the second side, it is the same
exhibit.
Q How, Mr. Taylor, since 1962-63 with reference to
elementary schools only have the dual school senes been used
in any way. to your knowledge, in the Chattanooga School
System?
a In *62-*63, 16 elementary schools went to the
single zone, in Grades 1 through 3, in *63-'64 all elementary
schools went to the single zones Grades 1 through 4, and in
'64-*65 all elementary grades through 6 went to the single
zone, therefore, those two years after *62-*63 it was used
partially for the remaining grades, there was acme use for
three years.
U Have the dual zones with regard to elementary
schools been used to any extent in any way since 1964-65?
R i c h a r d ft C a s e v B s m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T It I K U S H O R T H A N D R J P O R T F R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R ' N O A L E H U B B E I L
Taylor - Direct 15
A Mo, not to luy knowledge.
g Mr. Taylor, 1 hand you a map labeled "Subpoena
Materials Mo. 1 Dual Zones, Junior High Schools, 1965-66,
White Junior High Schools."
would you please identify this map and tell what
it is?
A It was a map used to determine the attendance
centers for white children. Grades 8 and 9, '65-*66, and
prior to that time '64-'65, it was all three grades, 7, 8
and 9, the seventh grade this year of '65-*66 is what 1 am
trying to say went to a single zone.
q Then the year for which this map was used, the
seventh grades in the white schools were in single echool
zones, is that correct?
A In *65-'66, that is correct,
g All right. In '65-*66 the eighth and ninth
grades were still in dual zones?
A Dual zones.
g This map then was used for administrative
purposes for the eighth and ninth grades in white junior
high schools in '65— '66, is this correct?
A That is correct.
fine COURT: Exhibit Mo. 2 for identification.
MR. WITT: This also has a reverse side.
(The map referred to above was marked
Exhibit Mo. 2 for identification.)
R i c h a r d ft C a s e * B *3Mi T h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E P F N i E M A R T i N D A l E M U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 16
u Nov, Mr. Taylor, when were the junior high
schools desegregated and single rones entirely applicable,
in what year?
i A *66-'67.
Q Has the nap that 1 have shown been used to any
extent in the school, system since that date?
A Hot to sy knowledge.
Q Mr. Taylor, I call your attention to the other
side of this map, which is labeled again "Subpoena Materials,
Ho. 1, Dual Zones, Junior High Schools, 1965-66, Negro Junior
High Schools."
What was the purpose of this soap?
A It was to determine the attendance centers for
the hi act children for Grades 8 and 9 for the year 1965-66.
q How, it was not used for the seventh grade for
black children that year, is this correct?
A That is correct.
Q Has this map been used to any extent by the
school system for any reason since 1966-67?
a Ho.
q How, Mr. Taylor, in constructing the single
school zones for the elementary schools that became completely
effective in 1964-65, what criteria were used by the City
School System in deciding upon the boundaries for these
various elementary school zones?
R k . h a r o ft Cast / 13 S m i t h a n d ASSOCIATES
r . l H T ' f l F O S H O R T I A N D HF P O R T E R S
R F F C R F N « F M A P I i N D A L L H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 17
A As I previously stated* I was not involved
directly with the decisions of reaching the boundaries.
From ary knowledge of school administration the establishment
of zones is the sole purpose of it* is to try to house the
students to the beat available arrangement for the capacity
of the building and the students that you have in the purpose
of zoning, the management arrangement of the children that
you have to educate.
Q Well* since 1966-67 has race been a part of any
decision with reference to the school zones in the Chattanooga
Public School System?
A From my part in it 1 can't. I can't answer for
everybody* it has not as far as I an concerned* to ny knowl
edge it has not.
Q During this period of time have you not been
assistant superintendent?
A I have been assistant superintendent up through
February the 15th* 1969.
g All right. In your capacity as assistant
superintendent you have had responsibilities in the areas
of attendance in school zones, as you previously testified?
a That is correct.
<u Have you attended the conference meetings of the
School Board during that period of time?
a I have attended most of them, 1 think, when I was
R i c h a r d ft C a s e y b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R I N l ) A L E H U B B E L L
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Taylor - Direct 16
in town or not sick I attended.
u Have you attended the official School Board
meeting* held on Wednesday afternoons?
A The same conditions.
u Are you generally familiar with the decisions
made by the Chattanooga Board of Education?
A I would say so.
^ Baaed upon this knowledge has race been a part?
MR. WILLIAMS} Objection, if your Honor please.
I would object to his attempting to reach the subjective
attitudes of the members of the Board of Education, they are
parties and capable of testifying.
MR. WITT: I will rephrase the question.
Q Mr. Taylor, to your knowledge, and based upon
your information, is there anything to indicate to you that
race has been a part of the decision of the Chattanooga Board
of Education with reference to school zones since 1966-67?
MR. WILLIAMS: That is objected to as calling
for an inadmissible conclusion.
THE COURT: Well, he may state what his personal
knowledge may be as to those matters.
A As 1 stated before, my personal knowledge is
that it has not, race has not been.
<u Mr. Taylor, in the discharge of your responsibilit
R i c h a r d & C a s e y B S m r n a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C F » T i f i H » S H O R T H A N D R f P O R T t R S
R F . F t R l N i t M A P I N O A L T M U B B f c l l.
Taylor - Direct 19
did you prepare or supervise the preparation of a document
i <
entitled "Statistical Reports on Pupil Desegregstion-
Chattanooga Public Schools. 1970-71"?
A Yes. sir.
Q Dated October the 16th. 1970. Do you have a
copy of that?
A I have a copy.
U Is this the document that was filed earlier, well,
in 1970. it is a part of the record and Mr. Williams has a
copy of it. would you like to have a copy? We have
copy here.
THE COURT: You are offering this as Exhibit No. 3'1
MR. WITT: Yes. Do you have another copy?
THE WITNESS: l gave you a copy. We have several
here on hand, ten, 1 think.
MR. WITT: Mark this an exhibit.
(The compilation referred to above
was marked Exhibit No. 3 for
identification and received in
evidence.)
Q Mr. Taylor, I direct your attention to Page 2a
of 3 of this exhibit.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please your Honor, I don't«
know what has been marked.
MR. WITT: You already have this but here is
another one.
R i c h a r d Qt C a s e y B S m i t h a n o A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T ' N O A I E - H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 20
MR. WILLIAMS: This is the exhibit to which you
are referring?
MR. WITT: Yes. It is an exhibit that was
delivered, as I recall, in November.
MR. WILLIAMS: Exhibit 3.
TliE COURT: Do you have another copy so I can
follow?
MR. WILLIAMS: The Court may have this copy.
MR. WITT: Yes, excuse me.
SL m *. m
g Mr. Taylor—
A (Interposing) 2a of 3?
g 2a of 3. It shows schools formerly white students
and it starts off with Brainerd High.
a I have the page, sir.
g I direct your attention to the elementary schools
for the time being in 1962-63, which this was the year in
which Grades 1 through 3 were desegregated in selected
schools, is this correct?
a That is correct,
g Was Avondale a selected school?
A Avondale was not a selected school,
g What was its enrollment on the black and white
basis that year?
A That year it was 317 total enrollment on the tenth
R i i H A R O a C a s e * B j M i r n a n d A s s o c i a t e s
i . E R T ' M E O S H O R T H A N D R I - P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T N D A l E M ' J B B E L L
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27
day of school and they wer« all white children.
Q Then what was the enrollment in 1963-64, which
was the first year in which Avondale was desegregated to any
extent?
A Three hundred and eighteen black pupils. 170
white pupils and 488 total.
q in 1964-65 all six grades were dosegregated, is
this correct?
A That is correct, all six grades, the entire
school.
C What was the racial population in the school on
the tenth day of that year?
A Six hundred thirty-nine black pupils, 18 white
pupils, 657 total pupils.
q All right, what is the population, black-white
population, at the school as of the tenth day of school.
1970-71?
A Six hundred four black pupils, one white pupil,
641 total.
q Have there been any changes in the school zones
for Avondale during that period of time?
A Been some changes.
ii Do you recall in what year these changes were
effected?
A The map being shown now?
Taylor - Direct 21
R i c h a r d a C a s h b s>m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s .
C t R I f I E D S H O R T H A N D R F P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M AR 1 I N O A L E H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 22
Q Just a minute. Mould you identify the map that
la being shown to you?
A The map should have a label up there, the
elementary single zones, the elementary 1962-63 was effective
in 16 of those zones.
|
£> Does this represent the first map of the single
i;
school zones for elementary schools?
A That is correct, that represents the of the
single zones.
ti Does this map have a number for your purposes?
A The word "elementary” should be in there, it
might be there but I can't see it. Supposed to have a
number but the number is not on it. We call it the elementary
single zone from 162 to '63 through present in that series
of map showing changes by year.
Q 1 believe that this map is labeled No. 1 far
your purposes?
THE COURT: Well, allow it to be identified in
this record as Exhibit No. 4.I (The map referred to above was
marked Exhibit No. 4 for identifi
cation. )
A There were not any changes that— yea, '63- '64—
were not any changes in the Avondale zone.
MR. WITT: This will be the next exhibit.
THE COURT! Exhibit 5.
R i c h a r d ft C a s e y B S m t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
■ E R T U E U S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
RE * E R E N C E M A R ' i N D A L E - H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 23
(The map referred to above was marked
Exhibit Ho. 5 for idectlficatlon.}
MR. WILLIAMS: If it please the Court, I hate to
delay things, I didn't quite follow this testimony with
regard to this map.
MR. WITT: This particular map. I will get to in
a minute, hut it shows several zone changes, but at the moment
I am on the Avondale change, which will be shown by another
map in the series.
q Mr. Taylor, I direct your attention to this
particular map. would you please identify it?
A This is the elementary school zone, single zone,
1963-64 with the changes of *64-'65, in other words, the
•64-*65 school year used the single zones including the
changes indicated, so that has two years on it. You can see
the '63-'64 and then you can see the '64- '65 after the
changes are made.
<j was Avondale changed this particular year?
A Avondale was changed, the little section in the
northeast pointed to was zoned to the Garber Elementary
School and over in the other southeast corner a little
section was zoned to the Glenwood School.
u All right. At that time what was the racial
composition of the Glenwood Elementary School? I call your
attention to Page 3a of 3, the third line from the top, of
R i c h a r d a C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T F l E D S H O R T H A N D RF P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R ’ I N O A L F . H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 24
•64-*65.
A *64-'65, Glenwood School. 103 black children,
87 white pupil*, total of 190.
Q All right. In that year what was the racial
composition of the Garber School?
A The Garber School, no black pupils, 353 white,
for a total of 353.
y All right. What occasioned the change of this
school zone for Avondale?
A The Avondale zone as described in the year
'63-* 64, our projection was it could not adequately have,
I mean the attendance center couldn't have the pupils in
the zone, so it was an overcrowded condition, is the basic
reason, an expected overcrowded condition because the zone
changes made for the students entrolled in the fell and it
is anticipated, as I say, it was an overcrowded condition
they did anticipate so the Glenwood school had some space,
or a small amount of zone there, and then the Garber School
had that year some space, so it was a capacity arrangement,
what was taking place, trying to house them in Avondale,
y How do you go about predicting or estimating the
number of pupils that will enroll at an elementary school
in the coming September?
A vie use what we call a mathematical trend, modi
fied mathematical trend, I guess, and we use the end of the
R k . h a n d tt C a s e y B S m i t h a n o A s s o c i a t e s
<~ E P T I I . t O S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
W E E E R E N C E M A R I N l i A I E H U B B E I L
Taylor - Direct 25
seventh Month attendance of a given year, the pupils that
are enrolled at that tine, and we get the percentage on the
seventh day that return the following year for a four-year
period and get an average out of the returns for the four-
year period and an average for the three and the one and we
make the mathematical projection into srsypvit
other factors. Should a housing project that we know of
will be built in that rone we have to make some estimate of
the number of pupils that will come from there to
the trend, in other words, it is a factor of adjustment to
the trend and if something is going to be t o m down or a
freeway built or other things that are going to happen in
I
the zone we try to take that into account.
U In the Avondale situation what type of class
load would you assume In determining capacity?
A For the special education classes, that is self-
contained in a given school building, like the educatlonahle
minimum retarded classes in that type we count 20, on the
other standard classroom we count 30, if the room is large
enough, in a few classes we have smaller classrooms ^ we
make 25, but 30 for regular classrooms and 20 for special
ed. is the usual pattern.
U How do you estimate the number of 1 ■ that
will enter the first grade at an elementary school?
A The first grade is difficult. We do not have the
R i c h a r d a C a s l v B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T D I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E E t R E N C . E M A R I . N D A L E H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 26
birth rate data aa acme areas would have. We uae the number
that enrolled the previous year and so our projection is not
on a following year type of thing, it is an up and down first
jj
grade projection. I don't know the correct technical name
for the type projection but say last year so many first
graders, the year before so many, say it decreased s thousand,
a hundred, and the pattern of decreasing each year we would
estimate it to continue a trend of decreasing, if it is going
up we say it is going up, so we do use past history of the
number we had in the first grade.
q All right. Now, in the avondaie zone, that part
of the /voodale that you transferred to Olenwood, how
did you know how many pupils were in that particular
geographical area?
A That was the responsibility of the principal of
attendance center to give us the head count of the pupils
who enrolled that given year. The first grade had to be
estimated but the principal gave us the number that he had
estimated would be involved in that to transfer to the otherI school.
q Does the eleroentary principal generally have the
location, the address of his pupils in his school records?
A Yes, sir.
q Then thig was the source of your information?
A The information in this particular case.
P i c H A R O ft C A s t v a S m i t h a n o A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T - I i t’ l l S H O R T H A N D R t P O R T E R S
R F . F I R 6N C F M A R T ' N l ) A t F H O B B L L L
i
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Taylor - Direct 27
Q Did It make any difference whether the echoed
students were black or white?
A Ho, just a question of trying to get the premia! ty
to the building so that they could be transferred, 1 mean
could be zoned to another district to reduce the load at
that center.
Q Did your projections work out. In other words,
did Avondale remain of a size that was able to handle the
job?
A We handled them.
M U WILLIAMS: I didn’t understand that answer
at all.
THE WITHKSSs Well. I said we did house them
there, the ones who were left, they were housed and to my
knowledge we had a satisfactory year.
q All right. What was the pupil population In
1963-64 at Avondale?
A 1963-64, 488.
q What was the pupil population in 1964-65?
A Six hundred and fifty-seven.
q And this substantial Increase took place even
after you had removed part of the zone applicable to Avondale
and shifted it to Garber and Glenwood?
A That la correct.
w Do you know the number of students that actually
R i c h a r d 8 C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
’c e r t i f i e d S H O R T H A N D r e p o r t e r s
R E F E R E N C E M A R 1 i N O A L E H U B B E L L
!
Taylor - Direct 28
were transferred as a result of this s o d s r»H*ng^ frcsi
»
I
I
Avondale to Glenwood?
A I don't know the actual number that did show up. j
In our projection I an referring to another—
Q (Interposing) I hand you a document entitled
"Chattanooga Public Schools, Chattanooga. Tennessee.
Attendance Center. Single Zone Maps. ” would you identify
this?
A This is a list of the zone changes to *:>v» single
zone in the elementary single zone and the junior high
it went into effect 1962-63 to the present and by year, as
the maps will Indicate, it's a corresponding document to go
along with the map to give background information.
Q Will you make this an exhibit to your testimony?
THE COURT: Exhibit 7.
(The compilation referred to above
was marked Exhibit Mo. 7 for identi
fication and attached hereto.)
MR. WILLIAMS: I wonder if we might have a copy
of that?
MR. WITT: I am trying to find one.
PJ* W lIT.t
u Mow. Mr. Taylor. I believe I was asking you with
reference to whether or not you knew the number of students
that actually were transferred from Avondale to Glenwood as
a result of this zone change in 1963-64.
R i c h a r d ft C a s e v B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
( E R T H I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M AR ! I N O A L F . - H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 29
A Pro& Avondale to Garber we estimated 26 students
being in that group and from Avondale to Oleowood we estimated
18 students.
i
G All right. At Garber Page 3a of 3, what was the
student enrollment at Garber in 163-' 64?
A Now, these changes were made in *64-*65* The
*63-*64 Garber enrollment was—
G (Interposing) Page 3a of 3?
A In * 63— *64# 347.
G All right. In what year were these changes
effected?
A * 64-' 65.
G All right. Then how many students did you
project or estimated would be shifted from Avondale?
A Twenty-six.
Q What was the enrollment in Garber in '64- '65?
a Three hundred and fifty-three.
G What was the enrollment at Garber in *65-'66?
A Three hundred and ninety-six.
G Were there any black students at Garber in 1964-651
A No.
G Then you have no way of knowing actually whether
the students that were in the zone that was shifted from
Avondale to Garber, whether or not those students actually
went to tlie school, a new school to which they were zoned?
R i c h a r d ft C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I M E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T I N D A L E - M U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 30
A 1 do not have that information.
U Now, with regard to the southern part of the II
change frcm Avondale to Glenwood, what was the student
enrollment at Glenwood and the racial composition in 1963-64?
A 1963-64, black pupils. 60; white pupils, 125;
total. 185.
Q All right. What was it in 1964-65?
A One hundred three black pupils, 87 whits, 190.
0 So the black enrollment Increased 43, is that
correct?
A That's correct, 43.
Q And the white enrollment decreased from 125 to
87?
A Thirty-eight.
Q The net increase in enrollment was five?
A Five.
sj How many pupils did you estimate should have
been involved in this zone change from Avondale to Glenwood?
A We estimated 18.
Q All right. Now, Hr. Taylor, did you hawe any
part in this decision with reference to this sane change
that took place in *63-'64?
A I gathered the data to prepare it for the
superintendent and his decision and his reccwnendat .1 on to
the Board, it was his information that they reached the
R ' c h a r d ft C a s e y b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I I I F D S ' l O R I H A N D R E P O R T E R S
P F F E R E N t t M A R I ' N l J A l E M U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 31
decision on.
Q Do you know the baaia upon ***<<?>* this recansasnda-
tion waa made to the Board?
A To house the children, try to house them at
Avondale to keep from having an overcrowded condition# that
was the basis of it.
Q Was race a part of this decision or this
recommendation?
A No, sir.
Q Were you present at the School Board meeting when
this zone change was discussed?
A 1 can't say. 1 more than likely was there hut I
can't remember the date. I don't know the date and Z don't
know whether I was there or not, I can't answer.
MR. WILLIAMS: If the Court please, for the record
we object and move to strike the testimony that race was not
a part of the decision, that is a conclusion to be reached
by the Court.
The testimony can be elicited as to whether or
not this witness had any racial motivations or whether race
was mentioned, but for him to draw a is not
competent evidence.
THE COURT: Well, he says that he does not know
beyond his own personal knowledge and he can testify as to
that.
R i c h a r d ft C a s e * B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F F A t N i t M A R ' i N U A L F H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 32 i
U Were you aware of the racial duractariatics of
the students involved in these zones at the time the decision
was Biade to make the zone change recommendations to the Board?
A i would say I would be aware that Garber was still
an all—white school and that Glenwood was same degree of
desegregation that had taken place there.
t! Were you aware of the racial characteristics of
the students actually involved in those zones, that portion
of the Avondale zone that was being shifted to Glenwood?
A To my knowledge I was not aware. I mean as 1
remember at this day I was not aware.
Q How does this recommendation, how was it presented
to the Board of Education, in what fora?
A A Board item with supportive data or material is
prepared, given to the superintendent and the superintendent
might be in on the preparing of it but from the superintendent
he presents it to the Board, the recommendation of
superintendent to the Board and the Board approves the
superintendent's recommendations.
Q All right. Whose responsibility was it to place
it in this form for the superintendent?
A it would be my division, my division's respansibili
to prepare that to the best of our ability, that is honest.
Q Does this responsibility also require you to
a recoczaendation to the superintendent?
ty
R i c h a r d ft C a s e * B s m t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R f ’ M E D S H O W T H A N D R F P O R T E P S
R f c F F . R F N C t M A R K N D A l . E H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 33
A It require* me to if be ask* for a recommendation,
I make a recommendation. I give him the facta, he reaches his
decision* In other words, the superintendent is the assistant.i
superintendent' s boss. If be can use what the assistant
superintendent offers or he cannot use it. I give him my
judgment. I don't tell him. "You got to do this and you got
to do that.”
Q Generally as a general statement do you give him
your recommendation?
A Yes.
y Then is it true that up to the point of the
recommendation being submitted to the superintendent that
this task is your responsibility or is performed under your
direct responsibility?
MK. WILLIAMS: That is objected to as leading.
THE COURT: Well, be may answer.
A Yes.
q in this process up to tbe time that you recommended
to the superintendent, do you recall any discussion of the
racial aspects of the zone changes?
A I do not recall.
y In the material that was presented to the
superintendent was race a part of this decision or set forth
in the material?
A I can't answer that. I don't knew, it could have
R i l h a r u a C a s e * B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C F R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A B l ' N O A l F H U B B E L L
I
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20
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Taylor - Diract 34 !
boon in the material. I do not know whether it was involved
or not.
Q All right. Well, then in your part of this
zone change, and as far a* you personally are concerned, was
race a part of your recommendation?
A Ho, sir, race was not. 1 was trying to adequately
house the pupils.
U All right. Mr. Taylor, I now direct your
attention to the Spears Avenue in north Chattanooga,
which appears an Page la of 3. Mas this school closed at
the termination of the school year 1965-66?
A That is correct.
0 Why was it closed?
A Econom ics. I would say as far as the most
effective operation of the Chattanooga Public Schools. Me
had two school zones relatively cloee together, they were
products of the dual zone system and enrollment in the
two had adjusted to a point where one building could house
the group, therefore, they were consol idated and we saved
considerable as far as principal and other staff people, it
was economics and from an education standpoint it would be
a better educational program from a small of a hundred
to a school of approximate!y 400, so it was instructional
and financial ware the two predominant reasons.
U what was the racial make-up of the Spears Avenue
R i c h a r d a C a s f v B "■m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T M E D S H O P I K A N O RE P O R T E R S
E R E f K . E M A P 1 N D A l E. H U B 3 C L L
Taylor - Direct 35
School at the tine it was closed?
A One hundred black, pupils.
Q All right. Would you identify the map that ia
entitled ”1965-66 with change to 1966-67", what does this
purport to show?
A It shows the single school zones that were in
operation in 1965-66.
u Excuse ms, Mr. Taylor, I don't believe X put this
one in as an exhibit yet.
THE COURT: Next exhibit will be No. d. Let's
have the officer mark these with the number they are to be
given in this record. This map just now being referred to
will be Radii bit 8 for the record.
(The map referred to above was marked
Exhibit No. 8 for idantification and
received in evidence.)
MR. WILLIAMS: I might call attention to the fact
that counsel is skipping one. he skipped this map.
MR. WITT: I realize I have got to follow one
thing or the other. Ibis one was the previous exhibit,
•63-'64, with change to '64-'65.
THE COURT: *63-'64 was Eadiibit No. 5, then the
map for '64-'65 was Eadiibit No. 6, according to ay records.
Let's start at the beginning of the sups. The
first map was Eadiibit No. 4, elementary aingle zones, *62-'63,
that was Radii bit 4.
R i c h a r d a C a s f v b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T i I IT D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F l H t N l . t M A R I I N O A L E M U B B E L L
]
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Taylor Direct 16
MR. WITT: Right.
TUE COURT: The next map was *63-'64, as Exhibit
No. 5.
MR. WITT: No# I don't believe so. We haven't
used this iuap yet. We have only talked about Avondale. No
change in Avondale.
THE COURT: Exhibit No. 5?
MR. WITT: That'S right.
T1IE COURT: The third map.
MR. WITT: Excuse me, take it all bade, I act
sorry. Where is the Avondale?
THE COURT: Exhibit No. 6 was the map shoring
the Avondale change in ' 64— ' 65, northeast part was to Garber
and part was to Glenwood and that was Exhibit No. 6.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, I think
probably the error in identification, I took it down wrong,
too, is that 1 had this map, the one they are now exhibiting,
marked as '63-*64 was actually '62-'63 with to
•63-'64.
MR. WITT: I do not believe I have asked any
question with regard to this map.
BY MR. WITT:
w Mr. Taylor?
a Sir?
u Is this '63-*64 with changes to '64-'65, does
R ic. h a r u & C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E K T I H F D S H O R T H A N D R t P O R T E R S
H t f t R I N ' J F M A R T N U A . f c H U B B t i . L
Taylor - Direct 37
tin a reflect the Avondale changes?
A That is correct.
THE COURT: That was Exhibit No. 6 according to
this record.
MR. WITT: Now we have got them.
THE MARSHAL: Where is No. 5?
THE COURT: No. 5 it was testified there was no
change in the Avondale on Exhibit No. 5, which was the map
showing change in *63 and *64.
MR. WITT: There is No. 5. I think we have got
it right now. Now, the map that has the Spears Avenue change.
THE COURT: No. 7 was the document.
MR. WITT: That is correct.
THE COURT: And No. 8 is the map now being
referred to.
BY MR. WITT:
g Will you identify this map, Mr. Taylor, and state
what it is and what it was drawn to show?
A The single zone for the elementary schools 1965-
66 showing the dicinges that went into effect iu 1966-67.
g All right. Now, what was your responsibility at
the time this zone change was in the process of evaluation
prior to the recommendation to the superintendent?
A Was to provide data to show that the building at
G. Russell Brown could house both school districts.
R i c h a r d 8 v _ A S F r 6 S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
^ « R » • F O S H O R T H A N D R H ' O P T E R S
RFFF-RfcN< t M A R U N D A L f c H U B B E L L
1
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20
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Taylor - Direct 38
g All right, what kind of data?
A That*a enrollment data and the capacity of G.
Russell Brown.
g That is enrollment data by grades or does that
make any difference?
A Well, 1 through 6, both schools were 1 through 6,
so it would be the total enrollment in 1 through 6 that would
result at Brown if both schools were consolidated.
Q All right. What was the recoranendaticn that was
made to the superintendent?
A That the two schools be consol Ida ted,
g Which two schools?
a Spears Avenue, which the school had the 100
enrollment.and G. Russell Brown, which is located where the
arrow was at number four there, 1 believe,
g How many elementary schools were there north of
the river at that time in the Chattanooga School System?
A Three,
g What were they?
A G. Russell Brown, No. 4, Spears Avenue vdiere the
pointer is and Normal Park at that point,
g All right. What was the racial composition of
G. Russell Brown in *65-'66, Page 2a of 3?
A *65-*66?
g Yes. The year the decision was made to make the
R i c h a r d a C a s e * B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R h N D A L E - H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 39 „
change but not the year that the change wax effected.
A Two blade pupil*. 306 white pupil*. 308 total.
Q All right. What was the racial ccnposition of
G. Russell Brown after this change we* put into effect, that
is. the fall of ' ^ ' e ? ?
A one hundred fourteen black pupils. 288 Waite
pupils, total of 420.
Q How many black students were in Spears Avenue
the previous year?
A one hundred.
<j You refer to economics in the decision or in the
evaluation process of deciding whether or not a school can
take additional pupils or whether or not a too
few pupils. Would you explain that, what do you mean by
" economics". what kind of economics?
A Financial economics. Operating two schools, in
other words, the services are provided at each center that
would need to be provided just at one center, that
custodial services, it includes the principal ship and it
includes same utilities and other things that are to
two centers and the upkeep on the building and so forth.
Q Is there such a thing in the State of Tennessee
as an ideal size elementary school from the viewpoint of
economics?
A I would say that ours would be close to 600, is
R i c h a b i : a C a s e y D s m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
11 D S M O w T H A N O R t P O B T E H S
N E F E R f c N '. E M API * N I ) A l f- H U BBE. _ L
1
2
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Taylor - Diract 40
1 | f
our concept of getting the service of a principal. I would
say that ray concept of an ideal elementary mould be
approximately 600 pupils, a principal could adequately serve
600 as well as he could serve 100.
Q Would the salary be the same for the principal?
A At the present time if it is 599 and if it is
25 pupils it would be the same salary, the same training,
same years of experience.
0 Is the school of 100 pupils, an elementary school
of 100 pupils, economical from the viewpoint of expenditure
of tax funds?
A I would say if you could have a better arrangement
it's better to have the other.
U Why?
A Because of economics. If you can consolidate
and have the one school without building another school you
can consolidate two buildings, then the economics would some
times pay out, if you have got to construct a new building
to consolidate two, but where you have the buildings already
constructed it would be economical if you could combine them,
properly house them and other things bsing equal, taut if you
had a school of 100 pupils a hundred miles from anywhere else
you would need to have the school with 100 pupils.
Q Does the teacher earn a salary based upon the
number of pupils in the classroom?
R i c h a r d ft C a s e v b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T II l E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T : N D A l E - H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 41
|| A Wo. air.
v In other word*, if a teacher teaches ten pupils
!;
her salary is the same as if she teaches 30 pupils?
A Based on her training and years of experience.
Q All other things being equal?
A Other things being equal.
U Was there any reason in your recommendation that
I made up your recomnendation or that was a part of your
recommendation with reference to Spears Avenue, other than
the economics of the situation front an educational point of
view?
A Educational programs. I mentioned two things,
economics, and you could have a better educational program.
1 am not basically a curriculum person but If you are
following the usual practice of self--contained rooms, if you
have six grades, 180 would be the smallest, that would be
the best arrangement under average conditions and under
average staff, that would be one grade per teacher, this hadI!
a hundred, therefore, it's a combination grades, 1 don't knowI*
the number that year, but bound to have been a combination
grade there, about four people, I guess, with the staff, and
I am not saying combination grades may not be the best
arranger>ent, it's according to the individual, a master
teacher, and 1 guess a master teacher is about one out of a
hundred, if there is such a thing, can do anything anywhere
R k . h a r u d ' A s fc v b S m ' t h a n l > A s s o u i r t s
C f R ' i t ) S H O R T H A N D P t P O R T E R S
R E F E R ! N . f c M A P T i ‘41 *AL F H U B B E I L
Taylor - Direct 42
in
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any time almost, but with average combinations it sometimes
causes some trouble.
U What is a combination classroom?
A That would be half of them first grade and half
of them second grade or some combination of two grades.
Q This, in effect, then Kteans that half of the
pupils are not being taught while the other half are being
taught?
A Scrutinies it can mean that. With a master teacher
all can be taught. All of us are not masters,
u With reference to your part in the decision to
close Spears Avenue or recommend the closing of Spears Avenue
and sending all of those black students to G. Russell Brown,
did race play any part in your decision or your recownendatio*^?
A It did not.
g To your knowledge did it play a part, any part
in this as far as the system is concerned, to your knowledge?
A No.
g All right. Why weren't these black students sent
to Normal Park, the other elementary school in North Chattanooga?
A The space was at G. Russell Brown, the flow of
traffic, which is considered in school zoning, was easier
for walking purposes.
Normal Park Is some distance away and up on a
higher elevation, the proxiriity and capacity.
R i c h a r d a C a s e < B S m u h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C fc RT 11 1 I D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A # I N n * i f K U 8 B E L L
Taylor - Direct 43
u When you use the word "proximity* you are not
using it as the crow flies, are you?
MR. WILLIAtiS: I am objecting to leading.
THE COURTl Sustained.
'J Mr. Taylor* when you use the word “proximity■
ck> you take into consideration hills, valleys, or are you
just concerned with vehicular distance or what do you mean
by "proximity"?
A Proximity is the leaning of the term as 1 used
it at that time, I guess was in a narrow sense, would be the
usual pattern that the child would follow going to school.
Q Walking?
A Walking, yes. Natural barriers like the river
tliere and other things. I wasn't using that in proximity,
w But in deter, ining the proximity of the Spears
Avenuu to Nor mal Park you could not determine this solely
with the use of the map?
A l would say it would be a little hard.
Q You would have to consider the typography and
other factors not shown on the map?
MR. WILLIAMS: I must object to his leading.
THE COURT: Sustained.
0 Mr. Taylor, you are familiar with the North
Chattanooga area and the physical location of the Spears
Avenue School?
R u h a r o ft a s i v 8 S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t f s
< t w i l l .fcl) S H O W ! H A N D Rk P O R T E R S
R E F E W ! NC. fc M A R T I N T ) A l K H U B B t L l .
Taylor - Direct 44
A Yes.
'
Are you fang liar with Normal Port and its
luMaVitoit
A Yes.
Q Have you driven your automobile from Spears
Avenue fro*, tine to time to Normal Park?
A i have driven to both schools, yes, sir.
Q Are you aware of the typography then of the area
in general?
A Yes. Normal Park was up on a higher elevation,
much higher elevation, as previously stated.
U Would the Normal Park School be closer to Spears
Avenue from the viewpoint of walking without regard to
typography or would it be farther away?
A As I recall, at the time it was further away.
1 Were the traffic patterns taken into consideration
at the time?
A The traffic patterns were taken into consideration,
as indicated the flow of traffic leads down to 6. Russell
Brown, I mean the streets ran fairly level and did flow into
G. Russell Brown.
Q Are you talking about vehicular traffic?
A Vehicular traffic. Access to walking, it would
be easier that way.
Q Are there many sidewalks in North Chattanooga in
R i c h a r d a C * b t Y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T ' K I F D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A P T I N O A L F H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 45
this area?
A I can't answer that.
U Are there any sidewalks iusnodiately on Old Dallas
Road, that is. adjacent to Spears Avenue, do you recall?
A I recall sou*} place to walk, whether they are
paved sidewalks or not I can't say.
U Is the presence or absence of sidewalks taken
into consideration in designing school zones?
A I would say it might have same bearing but
relatively little.
Q Do you consider the safety of the children in
walking?
A That is considered.
Q This would relate to sidewalks, their absence
or presence, wouldn't it?
A It would be a means of walking, that is correct.
Q Are you familiar with the means by which students
in elei entary schools are transported from their homes to
schools in Chattanooga, in the Chattanooga System?
A This is not a factual— I assume most of the
elementary school children walk to school.
w In designing your zones then you assume or do
you assume that m-ost of the children will walk?
A That is correct.
MR. WILLIAMS: I continue to object to the leading,
R ll H A R D 6k * B S m i f H A N D A S S O C I A T E S
C . E R I H t E O S H O R T H A N D H I P O R T E R S
M F F f . R I N l E M A f M i N H A I h H U B B E l . L
Taylor - Direct 46
if your Honor please.
THE COURT: Yes, the last question was leading.
(j In your design of school zones do you consider
the means by which students—
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) May it please the
Court, I object to leading and request that counsel ask the
witness what he considers rather than leading hint through it.
THE COURT: Sustain the objection.
Q Do you consider the means by which students go
to school in your recommendations?
MR. WILLIAMS: The sate objection.
THE COURT: Yes.
Q What do you consider in detenrdning school zones
with reference to children? Itemize it, please.
a Well, the school zone, you have an attendance
center, if one is already there and in some of these cases
the buildings were already constructed and the capacity of
the building has a bearing on it and then the adjacent
attendance centers have a bearing. To say if you have three,
to adequately house the students in the area that corues front
the three, you have got to reach same conclusions of the
capacity and where you could place them.
U Well.
A Now, if you have same barriers that impede the
child from going frot one zone to another that will be
R i c h a r d a C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R t P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R N D A L E H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 47
considered, as 1 Mentioned, like we have several places as
shown on the map up there that is white areas where there
are no streets that irupedes i ost of them, it would Xi^pede
transportation from one place to the other one. We have
several, like missionary Ridge, the river and the freeway,
difficult to get across it except at certain places.
It is things of that nature that would have some
effect on the zones and the transportation routes that are
available for the way the bus lines run and other things
have scx.e bearing.
u When you use the word “adjacent** you meant
adjacent insofar as wham is concerned?
A Well, if you have three attendance centers that
are adjacent to each other.
u Well, what about adjacent to homes?
A Proximity of homes, near as possible to where
they go, it can be conditions where a child might have to go
a longer cu stance, it is not the desire but sometimes we
have to house the pupils, they would have to go to a building
that is further away from their home than another building
«
to bouse them. Everyone, every pupil doesn't go to the
closest school in the elementary grades but the majority do
go to the closest school.
w; What other changes are reflected on the map
entitled 1965-66 with change to 1966-67, Hr. Taylor?
R ic h a r d ft t . A S k v a S m t m a n o A s s o c i a t e s
E W T It l E o S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E E E R t N i l M A W ! N fiA L fc I I U B B l - U l
Taylor - Direct 43
Mr. Taylor is color blind and this presents some
probla s for hiiu ■when we are using maps like this.
a Point to those two arrows again, in this section i
that's a freeway constructed through an area there.
Q What school is involved?
A The school involved, Clifton Hills is that school,
Davenport, this school, and Hemlock is where he is pointing
to.
Q Would you identify this change on the exhibit
that was referred to as an attendance center, single zone
î aps, which has previously been introduced, what page is it
A It doesn't have a page number, it is 1966-67.
Q All right. Now, what was the reason for this
zone change?
jlI A As I mentioned, 1-24, the freeway, is built
through this area and our single zone n ap that was designed
in '62- *63 did not include or consider the freeway coming
through and the little portion that was zoned to Hemlock
is above the freeway, that was in the Clifton Hills zone on
tiie north side of the freeway.
•j All right. Stop right there just a minute.
Hemlock at that time, what was its racial composition?
A In *66-'67 Hei.lock was 54 black, 242 white and
296 total.
R l ( H A R O ft 1 A S E < B S M t H A N O A S S O C I A T E S
C F R r i E O S H O R T H A N D RJ D O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R I N O A i T I I U B B E I L
Taylor - Direct 49
That was after the zone change had been
implemented?
A Yes, sir.
0 All right. Before the zone change had been
implemented?
A Thirty-seven black, 362 white, 299 total*
Q All right. Now, you were testifying with
reference to the freeway..
A So the her.dock, from the Clifton Hills zone to
the Hemlock was approximately six pupils was involved in
that little section that went to Hemlock. Now, a section
of Davenport zone, that section was zoned to Clifton Hills.
Q All right.
i
A So part of Clifton Hills was zoned to Hemlock
ir>
17
IN
1 !•
and part of Davenport was zoned to Clifton Hills.
u What was the racial composition of Davenport
prior to that change?
A '65-'66, Davenport had 354 black, 14 white and
396.
q All right. Was the—
A (Interposing) Three hundred and sixty-eight, 368.
^ What was the racial composition of Davenport
after the zone change?
A Three hundred and eight black, 16 white, 324.
U All right. How, I believe you stated that the
IiI
R l ( H A R D 8 ( A M Y U S M T H A N D A S S O C I A T E S
C t . f M H I D S H O R T H A N D R l M O R T L R S
R E f ' M U N C f M A R I N D A L h M U B B fe l L
Taylor - Direct SO
other school that was affected by the zone wee?
A Clifton Hills.
52 Clifton Hills. All right. What was the racial
composition of Clifton Hills prior to this zone change?
A *65-*66, Clifton Hills, zero black, 516 white,
total of 516.
U What was the racial composition after the zone
change?
A Black, 11, 518 white, 529 total, that's *66-'67.
C So following that zone change Clifton Hills was
desegregated for the first time?
A That is correct.
U Now, Hr. Taylor, did this particular zone change
present any peculiar or unusual problems that you recall?
A Unusual? I would guess not. All zone changes
are difficult, no one wants to change zones. It's a very
tedious hard job for school administrators to iaake an inter
pretation to parents that they have got to go to same other
school, so that was involved in this, as in others.
Q How, under your supervision the material was
gathered and evaluated preparatory to recoKauanding this zone
change, is this correct?
A The estimated pupils that would be in each center,
we were responsible for preparing.
<u And so it was your responsibility to come up with
R i c h a r d a C a s i- v B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T 11 I I O S H O R T H A N D Rfc.PORTfcRS
R E F E R ! N< F. M A R T l N D A L E H U B B f c l L
Taylor - Direct 51
the initial recoranendation as to sons changes. Did you
personally consider raco in your discharge of this particular
responsibility in any way?
A I did not. I knew race was involved in it,
though.
Q But you did not base your decision— did you base
your decision to any extent upon race?
A Ho.
Q Or your recorumendatian?
A Could I make a statement, is it in order? Some
of the recommendations on zone changes did not originate with
me. In other words, the superintendent could make the
recaranendation and asked me to get the data or different ways
it corues about.
<J But this particular zone change did—
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) I object to leading,
if your Honor please.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q I was asking you about the zone change, Mr. Taylor,
with reference to the Davenport School and the Clifton Hills
School and my questions were limited to that particular zone
change.
A That particular zone change, I believe the
superintendent requested me to provide the data of the area,
1 believe he brought it up, instead of originating from ay
R i c h a r d A C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C f c R T I f t O S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R f I N O A L E M U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 52
end of the situation.
Q Did be ask you to make a recommendation, or do
you recall?
A Well. I presented the facts that the change
could be adequately housed in those attendance centers there,
that the number of students could be housed.
Q Well, who initiated, for example, to illustrate,
who initiated the idea that they would be split between the
two schools, who initiated that particular aspect of the
zone change, do you recall?
A 1 would say I initiated what is there that could
be housed as to those two schools, the north part of it
above tiie zone go to Hemlock, which is the pattern there,
and that this portion, south there, that was clossr to
Clifton Hills go to Clifton Hills.
u So this was your recommendation?
A Yes.
Q All right. How, what other zone changes, any
other zone changes reflected on this map. Hr. Taylor?
A It is a si:.ail portion of the Howard zone that
was zoned to Davenport to replace the number of Davenport
that was zoned to Clifton Hills, trying to keep an equal
staff and so forth at that given school and we estimated
about 27 would go from Howard to Davenport and in that ws
estimated about 28 going from Davenport to Clifton Hills, so
R i c h a r d ft C a s .e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t f s
F R ' H I I O S H O R T * - A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F H U M b M A R T N I ) A l F H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 53
it was a swapout there at Davenport to try to keep the number
of staff they had and for an educational program.
<j Mr. Taylor, I draw your attention to the Fort
Cheatham School, which is set forth on Page la of 3 of your
exhibit entitled "Statistical Report of Pupil Desegregation".
Do we have a map showing this rone change?
A Yes, sir.
g Do you recall which one it is?
A That is it.
0 Does this have an exhibit number? Exhibit No. 5.
Would you indicate the Fort Cheatham zone that caused this
particular change?
A That’s the Fort Cheatham, former Fort Cheatham
zone.
g What were the circumstances that caused this zone
change?
A A freeway came through the building,
g What waz the racial composition of the Fort
Cheatham School for the year immediately prior to its being
closed?
A Eighty-seven black.
g All right. Now, where is this area zoned to?
A That given year we were in the 1 through 4 single
zone, so the 1 through 4 was zoned to the Ridgedale area and
the 5 and 6—
R i c h a r d A C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T • Z D S h O R ' H A N l ) R E P O R T E R S
RE.f t H E N C E M A R ' I N O A L E H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 54
i I
1 !
r>
it;
|!l
•_> i
y (Interposing) what was the racial composition
of Ridgedale at that time?
A Ridgedale, Ridgedale in *63-*04, Ridgedale was
seven black, 354 white, and 361.
u Now, that was the year after the Fort Cheatham
School was closed, is that correct?
A Hie Fort Cheatham was closed about October.
y
A
Q
In the middle of the year?
In the middle of the year.
And these figures are as of the tenth day of
school, is that correct?
A It wouldn't be reflected until the text year in
Chattanooga, '64-'65.
Q All right.
A In that year the enrollment at Ridgedale was 46
black and 368, 414.
g All right. Now, what criteria did you use for
picking Ridgedale to send the children to instead of another
school?
A It was the capacity was the major one and the
same reason we identified before, that the cl oeeneaa of the
building and the ease of transportation or walking,
g Any other reason, that you recall?
A No.
Q Is it true then as a result of that change
R i c h a r d a C » s e v B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t l s
« F R T " ! > 0 S H O R T H A N D Ht P O R T E R S
R E F E . R t N C E M A R 1 N D A L F M U B B E U
Taylor - Direct 55
Kidgedale went fran seven black students to 46 black students,
is that correct?
A That is correct, Eiight have been sons other
changes in th<> population zone which did have a bearing an it.
q All right. Are there any other zone changes on
this particular map that you have not testified with reference
to?
A This is a different map. there are several there.
<j Take theca in your awn order.
A Casio out to the right here. We are depicting or
showing a zone change from Wooctaore School to Eastdale
School and that is another one based on capacity of Woodmore
becoming overcrowded and Eastdale having room and there is a
case of children going further frost baste but our building
wasn't located right for the children or the children weren’t
located for the building, so those children in that particular
spot going to Eastdale. which is further than Woodcaore. but
for capacity's sake we had to make the change.
q What was the racial make-up of Eastdale prior to
that change?
A Eastdale had one black pupil. 484 white pupils
and 485, '62-'63.
u All right. The year following that zone change
what was the racial soaks—up of Eastdale?
A Twenty h iack pupils, 506 white, and 526 total.
R i c h a r d A C a s k v b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C t H T l I E D S H O R T H A N O R l P O R T E R S
K F . M - . H E N C F M A P ' I N O A l . F M U B B f c l . L
Taylor ~ Direct 56
*■ Ail Wu*v 4.<04 •'*<■ > ou V**v
that you hav* uot e*plariw»d? la that U m Vmey
area?
A Right next to that, that would be.
0 What school?
A This is Oak. Grove and Hstolock. This is a
physical change on the map and not a change in the actual
single zones that was approved, we Just drew a map different
£raa what was written and this put it in line, so it didn't
affect any pupils, just straightened up the map to where an
error was made in the map.
Q It was a sone change that did not affect any
pupils, is that correct?
A To wy knowledge that was the thing hecaimo those
pupils went to Uei/dock that were in that previous year. Now,
the bell School, we have got Bell School and Calvin Donaldson
School.
- shat was toe Sell School racial composition in
•62-*63?
A '62-'63, Bell was 622 black, total 622, and when
the change went into effect that would be 592 black from 622.
U What about Calvin Donaldson?
A Calvin Donaldson, *62-*63 was 562 black and
tlie next year 543, it went down approximately the awie arount
as tiie other one went up.
R i c h a r d a C a s e y B S m i ' h a n o A s s o c i a t e s
C F R T I M F D S H O » T H * M ' r e p o r t e r s
R E F F R F N l t M A R1 I Ni > A l E H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 57
Sc m . the taaagtt tor thi* m ju j wt wujsi* t
*V*.i .* too 'A*ch. Vt V4< * 1 \ 1 U U M M In ltw> Mu\lkhg vM
the sane line between tlu» HtJL'alll« ttu^o **wj*ac »**u
so that was reworded to identify it so we could tell what
school the child should go to.
Q Did it affect the racial c g l posit ion of either
Davenport or Bell?
A No. it did not.
0 All right. I believe there is another zone
change.
A Down at A. identified as A. is what is known as
Piney Woods Elementary School. Now. Piney Woods Elementary
School is new construction and a new zone was established
for that school in the Kt-taa Wheeler housing Project, adjacent
to the Emrita Wheeler Housing Project that was completed in
that given year and we Moved into it in about January the
15th or same time in January of the year *63- '64. That was
for:eriy a part of the Trotter School atone, not that ar/y
children lived in it, but was carved out of Trotter.
Q Does this school zone serve a housing project?
A Primarily. The next year it was amended a little
to take in some students adjacent to it an the southwest
corner but it was primarily the housing project there at
Emma Wheeler Homes.
U Do you know about what percentage ef its student
R t C H A H U flc C * b £ V B S M 1 H A N D A S S O C I A T E S
C E R T I f ' F D S H O R T H A N D R F P O R T E R S
R S f F R F N C F M A R T i N O A L F : H U B B E l L
Taylor - Direct 58
body comes from that housing project, approximately?
A I'd estimate 95 per cent.
U Are there any other zone changes an that particuljr
map?
A One over to Clifton Hills, that map, the map is
a little bit broader, that*s a small area, about five pupils
affected, and they were zoned to Clifton Hills, a barrier
there of swamps and other things of getting to Cedar Hill
and so that was the reason for that zone change.
Q How many students were affected?
A Approximately five.
Q They were shifted. What was the racial compos!-
tion of the school that they were in prior to the shift?
A At Cedar Hill, Cedar Hill was 162 white pupils,
no, 1 got the wrong year, in '62-*63 Cedar Hill was 171 white
pupils.
Q What was the other school involved?
A
Q
Clifton Hills.
What was its racial composition?
A Clifton Hills in '62-'63 was 496 white pupils.
U So there was no racial change as a result of
that zone change?
A Ho.
Q I believe there's another zone change in that
map?
R i c h a r d ft a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T ' * E O b H O H T * - A N D RF P O R T E R S
R E F E R ! N ' F M A R I N O A L F H U B B t L L
Taylor - Direct 59
A 1 JIB W m u * * W A t h ^ V M l'r fA .e
j w 1 Hr. Tsylo*. thr» refers to U w s^ac
Fifth Street School.
i;I
A What has happened, it*a a line down the middle
of that wherever that color ia going to happen, too much
color, should have been on white an the right aide of that
line, that ahould have been white, an the left aide of the
U line is the Clara Carpenter zone at that year and with
approximately 200 pupils there and this was »>*t *62— *63,
Clara Carpenter housed there 200 pupils, acne moving in from
other areas that wasn't eligible in the desegregation, but
in the year *63-*64 Clara Carpenter was closed, it's 200
pupils that lived in that area were zoned to East Fifth
Street Elementary, which is adjacent there, so those two
went together in the year *63-*64 and «aade the big zone
there, so it is a combination of Clara Carpenter School that
was closed. East Fifth could house all the students in that|
rone, so chat was a Ci.osi.ng of a facility.
^ Hr. Taylor, do you recall when the next zone
change was made that had a bearing upon that particular area
of downtown Chattanooga? I would like to move to that one,
if you recall when it was.
A That spot there would be about three years.
U •66-•67 ?
A I believe that's the year.
R i c h a m o fik f a :>f v B S v r w a n d A s s o h a t f s
I R T I F ' E C S H O R T H * N O Rl M O R 7 F H S
!' t F E R E N t . F M A R I l ' . D A L F i l ' i U H t . L
Taylor - Direct 60
U Do you have the map for that zone change in that
area? This has not been adaitted. Mr. Taylor, would you
identify this map and state the purpose of it?
A This map is the single zone for elementary school: t
that were in effect in 1966—67 showing changes for year
•67-*68.
THE COURT: Exhibit No. 9.
1
(The map referred to above was marked
Exhibit Mo. 9 for identification and
received in evidence.)
Li Is there only one change in this map. is that
correct?
A I believe that's correct, that's all I can see
fraw this distance.
0 All right, would you describe this change,
please?
A This was not a change in zone but a change in
housing of pupils in that zone and this year of '67-'60 was
established. Clara Carpenter was re-opened and this Clara
Carpenter zone is coming into play with Grades 1 through 4.
which were formerly housed in East Fifth Street in the same
zone. East Fifth Street School continued with Grades 5 and 6
of that particular zone and 7 and 8 from the zone south of
that, which was the junior high, which will be shown on the
junior high map. so it was an establishment of a middle
school at East Fifth Street to include Grades 5 through 8,
R i c h a r d 8 B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e
C E R T i ' . E D S H O R T H A N D R F P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R I N D A L E H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 61
Clara Carpenter 1 through 4 and Riverside, the adjacent high
school, was 9 through 12, took place all at this sane tine,
but this is setting up the zone for the elementary school.
Clara Carpenter, 1 through 4, for the year '67-'68.
U And then the colored part of the nap actually was
served by two elementary schools in part?
A Yes, two schools, students from there would go to
two schools, 1 through 4 to Clara Carpenter and 5 and 6 go to
Cast Fifth.
q How far are these two schools physically apart?
A Oh. about three city blocks or four, fairly close.
C And the Clara Carpenter was formerly an all white
elementary school?
A Back in history some time, not during our dis
cussion here, some time it was all white.
q All right. And it was closed and not used as a
school at all. is that correct, for a time?
A No, it was used for all black pupils before this,
• 62-'63, before the single zone maps came into effect, it
was used, and then it was closed about three years, two or
three years, for Grades 1 through 6. It was used for an
adult center by the Chattanooga Board of Education, it never
was a vacant building, it was used for that, and then used
again and it is still being used in Grades 1 through 4 in
the middle school complex over there.
I
R i c h a r d & C a s e v b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I I I t . 5 S H O R T H A N D R F P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T ' N D A L E H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct 62
(j what was the occasion for the re-opening of this
school on the 1 through 4 basis?
A It was an effort to try to have a curriculum
effort, which l am not, I don't guess, qualified to give the
full meaning of it, someone else should testify to that, but
trying to improve teaching, the establishment of a middle
school, we received a federal grant to help us in the Grades
5 through 8, I think approximately $187,000 for a three-year
period to improve our efforts in teaching. It was 1 through
4 to Clara Carpenter, was not a part of the federal grant.
0 There are no other changes in that map, are there
Mr. Taylor, zone changes?
A As far as 1 can tell there's not any.
Q Now-
THE COURT: (interposing) Suppose we take a
five-minute recess at this point.
(Thereupon, a five-minute recess was had.)
THE COURT: Are we ready to proceed?
b y MR. WITT:
q Hr. Taylor, I call your attention to the map
that has a legend 1964-65 with the change to 1965-66. Would
you offer this as an exhibit to your testimony? I believe
the next one would be No. 10.
THE COURT: Exhibit No. 10.
(The map referred to above was marked
Exhibit No. 10 for identitifi cation
riuiahd and received sia evidence.)
t t - N I l f i r D S H O H 1 H A N D S t P O R T t R S
R £ h ( H L N C f M A I M I N D A U H U B B E I L
Taylor - Direct 64
i. B p
1 i
I '>
IS
1 'I
l
A
U
A
Q
They were zoned to Davenport.
Why did you select Davenport?
It was the adjacent proximity school.
Now. what waa the racial composition of Howard
Elementary at the time this zone change waa made?
A Howard is combined 1 through 12 on this report.
Howard was all black pupils at that time and I guess they
were, from memory, about 560 elementary pupil*.
q All right. Waa Davenport, what waa the racial
composition of Davenport at that time?
A Davenport in the * 64— * 65 waa 355 and 7 white.
total of 362.
(j All right. After the change was made w h a t was
the racial composition of Davenport?
A
U
correct?
A
Q
A
Three hundred fifty-four black. 14 white, or 368,
The number of whites increased seven, is this
That is correct.
1 believe there is another change.
In the extreme— the Shepherd Hills, that color
there looks like it is red, that is an independent area.
This is the town of Shepherd Hills?
A Yes.
g That's in red?
A Ridgeside, so that is not a zoned area to our
R i c h a r d ft C a s e y b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R l P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T I N O A L E - M U B B E l . L
Taylor - Direct t>3
ii
0 Mr. Taylor, I believe this indicates about three
I
zone changes, would you take the first zone change and state j
where it is and why it was made? Pick any one you want.
A All right, sir. Starting in the Chattanooga
Avenue School, now, the large colored area represents the
former zone for Chattanooga Avenue Elementary School, Grades
1 through 6. The school building was acquired by the Railroad
i; Relocation Project in that area, therefore, we had to move
|| iout and from a study of the situation we deterTuined that we
ji had sufficient space in the adjacent elementary zones to
house the projected pupils in that area for the next year.
U What was the racial caiaposition of Chattanooga
j!
I Avenue at the time you made this decision. Page la of 3?
Its last year was 372 black pupils.
I g All right, sir. Now, where were these 372
students zoned to?
A The southern portion as indicated underneath that
line by that arrow was zoned to the Louie Sanderson Elementary
School and a portion above that was zoned to the Howard
Elementary School and a little compensating movement of some
pupils there out of Howard to Davenport, Howard absorbed the
I
others, some pupils were iioved out of Howard while others
! were uoved into Howard, it was a double adjustment.
g where were the ones that were moved from Howard,
where were they zoned to?
R|< M A R I ft B & * • ! • ' A N U A S S O I ' A l t ' ,
l I ft ’ i r S. >•*’ A N I K t l O P l t H * )
Taylor - Direct 65
city schoola .
U It's not a part of the City School System, is
1 that correct?
A That is correct. Mow, the little spot where you
ji are pointing to there was formerly a part of that independent
area and apartments were constructed and they applied to the
city to be annexed and that portion was annexed, therefore,
it was city property and we zoned it to the Sunnyside School.
(|
b Do you know the number of students that were
involved in that zone?
!! A I can't recall. I don't know whether I have it
written on this or not, I say it wouldn't be a large number.
<u You do not recall?
A I do not recall but it would be a small number,
I think.
||
u Let me go back to the change with regard to
Chattanooga Avenue, bouie Sanderson. Part of the students
'I
were sent to bouie Sanderson, I believe.
A Correct, yes. sir.
w What was the racial ecu ̂position of bouie
Sanderson at that time?
A In '64-'65 it was 136 black, three white, 139,
and in *65-'66, 168 black and no white, 168 total.
All right. Now, I believe there is another zone
change or two on this nap?
R « M A R i f i 4 Fi ! > M i l H A N I ' A ‘- ■SOI ' » ' t S
L R ’ I • • " O K I - ' N O • <-> u • • .. •
F f H 1 I M A R
Taylor - Direct 66
A To the extreii<e left of that, that one, that area
was inadvertently in the previous year not zoned to nobody,
it was just a void space like the Shepherd hulls area.
U would you locate it, please?
a where the arrow is pointed.
w Describe it for the record, so we will know what
area of Chattanooga he is pointing to.
A It's an industrial urea, no people live there
but it is an area of the city and all areas of the city are
zoned to sot.e school, we don't have any void spots so that
industrial area was zoned to that zone, so it was identified
with one.
q No students were involved?
A No students involved.
All right.
A To the right of it was a zone from the Avondale
Elementary School to the Orchard Knob Elementary School.
q What was the occasion for that zone change?
A They had two meanings, one was helping with the
overcrowded condition at Avondale that was still a growing
situation there from the previous year, I believe, as we saw
the other changes and the establishment of the single zone
for the junior high school, which was established for the
year '65-'66, which will be shown later. I guess. I left it
there to make the feeder schools of a junior high co-terminus
R I t H A M M N U M . B S M ' I H A N D A ^ S O l . A I f S
, j - p i i n i l H O P • m A N P H f P O R U H ' j
l<f f F R f N C t MA W N O A I t- H U B B t l . L
Taylor - Direct
I
with the junior high zone, in other words, for administrative
purposes, and the program to follow through on youngsters
that a junior high would cover certain feeder schools, one.
two or three, and that area that was zoned to Orchard Knob
was part of the Orchard Knob Junior High School zone.
0 And the junior high school zone that it was
removed from would have been what school?
A It would have been Hardy Junior High.
<u All right.
A But it was from Avondale, due to the tightness
of the Avondale and Orchard Knob could house the people, so
it went from Avondale, the overcrowded condition was Avondale,
is what caused it.
U Avondale, what was the racial cor position of
Avondale at that time?
A What?
yj What was the racial composition of Avondale at
the time this decision was made?
A In '64-'65 Avondale was 639 black. 18 white, and
657 total. The *65-'66 year. 629 black, 27 white, 656. That
group was zoned out to remain one less pupil.
The number oi whites in this zone increased. Do
you know whether or not that was the result of this zone
change or not?
I don't think it was the result of the zone change.
K i v H A R I j rt A >1 v H S M ! H A N D A s ‘ . U ( i A M S
. »- W » f • . I D S H O R T H A N D W» " O R I I H*i
W C M M T N C F M A R T N O A I F M U B B t l L
67
A
o All right. Do you know?
A 1 Jo W't liW* I'm * i ***
v Now, the Orchard Knob School, vnat was the racial
composition of the Orchard Knob School at that time, in
1964-65?
A *64-'65, 1.048 black pupils, and '65-'66 1.057
black pupils.
0 All right, sir.
>iR. WILLIAMS: Is that Orchard Knob Junior High
|! or Orchard Knob Elementary?
THE WITNESS: Elementary, 1 through 6.
WITT: Mr. williams, on Page l a of 3 . m i .
Taylor has it in the left-hand column in parentheses.
MR. WILLIAMS: I have it.
MR. WITT: All right.
THE COURT: I am confused. I have 797, *64-'65.
MR. WILLIAMS: I had the same, that's junior high,
tile e*ei entary is down be^ciw.
THE COURT: Oh, I see, yes.
BY MR. WITT:
d Mr. Taylor, are there any further changes on this
map that you hare not described?I A I do not see any.
u Mr. Taylor, in the discharge of your responsibili
ties for the School System in getting together the data in
R M A H n ft C A .fe r B S M i T H A N D A S b O ( I A 1 A S
- u r u ' f l ) S H O P T H N U Kl ■ ,yv,
Taylor - Direct 68 !
t < ^ E R E N ( F M A P I ! il ' A l t - H U 8 B L L L
making the initial recoraitendationa as requested with regard
to these zone changes, did you use race in th*> process oi
.axing this decision or basing your decision in juv> wa> ujhwi
race?
A No.
U To your knowledge did anyone in th<* system
identify race as a part of the consideration or feta decision?
A To ray knowledge they did not.
L Mr. Taylor, I call your attention to another lû p,
which has not as yet been introduced as an exhibit, entitled
1967-68 with changes to 1968—69. Will you make this the
next exhibit to your testimony, please?
THE COURT: No. 11.
MR. WITT: That will be 11.
(The map referred to above was
marked Exhibit No. 11 for identi
fication and received in evidence.)
0 Mr. Taylor, 1 suggest that you start from the
east, describe the zone changes and why they were necessary.
A On the extreme east, as we have pointed out, is
a newly annexed area to the city around the airport area and
there was not any school buildings in this area and this
zone was zoned to Elbert Long School, 1 through 9.
U Do you know how many students were involved?
A 1 don't know the exact number, 1 would estimate
close to a hunched.
N ■ H A N D H * .fc H SK* ’ H A N I A b S O f . ' A ' t - b
KR I » R F P O R T f e . R S
w t f f w i N fe m a b u n i u l f . ‘ - u R B t i I *
Taylor - Direct 69
Taylor - Direct 70
11
Q Do you know the racial composition of that 100
students?
A They were both races and I would guess about
half and half.
iu But you don't know?
A I do not know.
What was the racial composition of Libert Long
prior to this change in '67-'68?
A In *66-'67?
Q '67-*68.
A Prior to that, well, '67-'68, 18 black, pupils,
525 white pupils, 543 total.
y All right. What was it after the zone change?
A Forty-seven black pupils, 634 white pupils* 681.
(j So as a result the number of black students in
a formerly all white. 1 through 9 zone, was increased from
18 to 47, is that correct?
A That's correct.
u A l l right, how, what is your next change?
A The next change was a part of the annexed area
and it was closer to the Woodj.ore school, it's an area of
swai p and not many people live in it, it floods, but it was
another place we zoned it to soiebody in case they built a
fill in it and put pupils there soi.ie day, Woodit.ore School,
that's an annexed area, is the reason for the change.
R i h » H I ' ft A M A s s o i ! A T E ‘
HI P O R T E R ‘ >
t.» M U B B E L l
Taylor - Direct 71 i
u Was your decision influenced by the fact that it
was bounded to the east by Chickamauga Creek?
A Yes. that's a natural barrier of the swamp area
there.
tj Do you know how many students were involved in
this area?
A To iuy knowledge there wasn't any involved.
<u All right, what is the next zone change?
a Down there at Clifton Hills we had a little fire
there at Clifton Hills School and they built a new school
and that all happened there to change the location of the
school, so wasn't anything else other than just moved into
a new building next door.
Q But no zoning change?
A Mo zone change, just the housing change, hut it
did change locations but in the same zone.
Q All right.
A Mow. over on the extreme left there is the Louie
Sanderson School and the annual study of the enrollment
projections indicated that the student body in that school
would be adequately housed or could be adequately housed at
a financial saving in the adjacent elementary school, so in
tiie year '68- '69 Louie Sanderson was closed and the pupils
were zoned to St. Elmo, which is that section, and the
larger section there, the middle section, was to Donaldson.
R . l ( A' » » B S M T ' • A N I A S S O i A I L S
. 1 1 . H O - M O H I H A N ' H t H O P T h M S
H F I » O •' t M A H ' N U A i » ' l U B f i E L l
Taylor - Direct 72
}■•. i:
11
i ■1
which is adjacent, and the other top section to Howard
Elementary.
g All right. What was the racial composition of
Sanderson iimnediately prior to this change. Page la of 3?
A Sanderson had a total enrol lament that year of
140 pupils and they are all blade.
g All right, what was the racial composition of
St. Elmo Elementary School at that time?
A St. Elmo, 19 blade pupils, 306 white, total of
325.
u All right. As a result of that zone change what
was the racial composition of St. Elmo in the next year?
A St. Elmo. 54 blade pupils, 316 white, or 370.
g The number of blade pupils increased from 19 to
54 at St. Elmo, is this correct?
A That is correct.
g All right. What about Davenport, what was its
racial composition?
A Donaldson?
g Donaldson, excuse we, at the Calvin Donaldson
prior to this zone change?
A Calvin Donaldson was 502 blade pupils,
g All right. After the zone change what was its
racial make—up?
A Five hundred forty-one black pupils.
I* H A N I ' /t ( A S * B ’ M i ' l l A S '1 A s - . c
, % „ . . * |> . l i O N ' M A N I Ml C O M M R S
: , * I ( N< I M A M I i N l * A ' I H I I B H I * I.
Taylor Direct 73
L Any whites?
A No whites.
Q All right. What was the racial composition of
ii Howard Elementary prior to this zone change?
I
A 1 don't have Howard's here hut 1 would estimate
it being around 650 composition, all black, I believe.
<u All right. Did this zone change affect its
!: jracial composition in any way?
ii1
a It did not.
<j Now, 1 believe there is an additional elongated
change there.
A That's another annexed area that is known as the
Mountain Creek area and that area did contain an attendance
center, Pineville, which is located at C there, to house
elementary pupils 1 through 6, so that annexed area was just
!• zoned to Pineville.
i! g was any other school or attendance center located
in that area that was annexed?
A There was scxue adjacent to that area but not in
I
>i that area. There was a county school. Mountain Creek, that
is on the west side about middleways up that the pupilsj
formerly attended, that group there in the end.
g is that an elementary school?
A That's an elementary school in the county,
p Q is it immediately adjacent to the city limits?
R l C H A R I * ft A .» * H . M i * M AN I > A S S O C . I A I K S
C l H t • I ■ I I i , i - O R I H A N I H M ' O U T H I S
i n I | » i h f m a w : n d a h H U B H t I I
Taylor - Direct 74
A 1 believe it is across the road, the middle oi
the road, 1 believe.
<j is there a junior high school in that annexed
area?
A Up in that little mouth oi it, might have that
Red Bank Junior High School located in that section, that is
inside oi Red Bank, that is a part oi the annexed area, went
around Red Bank on the west side, the junior high there at
Red Bank.
Were any students involved in shifting frcxu one
school to another as a result oi that zone change, or do you
know?
A I do not know. Pineville opened that year with
about 131 and that is about what it had the year before, 1
think, so we had about the same enrollment there. These
others in the north did go to Mountain Creek, our county
residents, and 1 guess some oi them did go to Red Bank
Klementary. which is closeby right over there and some of
the junior high did go to that junior high and some oi them
did come to our junior high. We got 131 pupils, is What we
had at Pineville at that annexed area.
<j Now, Mr. Taylor, in the discharge of your
responsibilities, as are reflected by these changes on that
map. did you ignore race as you made this decision?
A Yes, race wasn't involved.
H i i H ft A' - I 1 H M i n A Nl> A s S O ‘ A t I
, 1 . I | I I O M M A N . k i P O H I I t*s
, I | t |v | N I MA M ' MI A I H U B H I I I
Taylor - Direct 75
I
<j The next map, please. New. Hr. Taylor, would
you identify this map for the record?
^ This is a single rone elementary school that was
effective in the year *68-'69 with changes to *69-70 school
year.
THE COURT: Exhibit 12. I
MR. WITT: Exhibit 12.
(The map referred to above was
marked Exhibit No. 12 for identi
fication and received in evidence.)
y with reference to the area south of the Tennessee
River and up toward the Chickamauga Dam, what was the
occasion for this zone change?
A This was an annexed area in the Roland Hayes-
Amnicola and Riverside Drive area, formerly was a part of
the county and the county operated two schools in that area,
the one that is identified there as Awnicola. and a Roland
iiayes, which was south of it about four or five blocks right
in that area, and when it became our responsibility to
provide education for the young people in that zone our
projection would say that we could house all of the students
in one building instead of in two and we picked out the
Puildiny we thought was the best building.
On account of financial reasons the county said
we were going to have to pay lor the one we use, so we
picked out that one and that is Amnicola and so we only
f I ' O H • »
Taylor Direct 76
l.;
oj.>oi attni cmiv school there. on« zone in tiu? area, so wu didn't
have any bearing with two and it was wade up ox the pupils
t n a t t o i T . e t i j KvV* s iw i a iw U i v D ,*«*lwwVk .
w Hr. Taylor, prior to annexation was Roland Hayes
all black or all white school or do you know?
A it was predominantly all black, might have been
entirely all black, but I would say predominantly all black,
t What was the racial composition of the An uni col a
School prior to annexation?
A
w
A
ti
A
Q
It was predominantly white.
All black, Amnicola?
Was white and Roland Hayes was all black.
Amnicola was predominantly *11 white?
That's right.
Did you say you discontinued the use of the
Roland B. Hayes School?
A Roland B. Hayes, we used only one, we excepted
it.
Q What was the racial composition of this consoli
dated school in the first year of its operation as a part of
the City School System, Page 2b of 3?
A 2b of 3, first year we had 69 black, 63 white,
132.
Q All right, sir. Now, moving north of the
Tennessee River and south of ChicJcamauga Dam in the bupton
M n ft t /> i v 13 S m . i n A N i i A s s o - m i s
!«»- » t 1,1 !H H f I i
Taylor - Direct 77
City area-Hixson area.
A That'a another annexed area, annexed at the same !I
time the south side of the river was, Riverroont-Eupton City
area, that was a one school plant in the area called
kivermont Elementary School, approximately where he is
i
pointing, and so the pupils in that area were zoned to j
kivermont, formerly operated by the county. The RlVermont
zone wasn't as extensive as that zone.
They had a school that was known as DuPont
Elementary School that is adjacent to it and DuPont zone
kind of split the difference between RiVermont and DuPont,
therefore, on that north end of it we had to take seme of
the students that formerly went to DuPont in RiVermont so
we had a crowded condition there at Kivermont but that is
the kivermont zone.
Q You are generally familiar with that area, are
you not?
A Yes, sir.
ii
j' u How far is the DuPont Elementary School fromli
the northern Loundary of this school zone from kivermont?
a I'd estimate two miles.
0 From the northern end of the zone to the DuPont
Elementary School?
A oh, 1 was thinking about kivenont. Do, across
the street, middle of the street.
i
Taylor - Direct 78
u Thank you, air. What is the racial composition
o£ the kxVermont School, or what was it in 1969 and *707
A 1969 and *70. 554 white. no hlack.
Q All right, air. Next map. Mr. Taylor, I show
you an additional map now bearing the legend 1969-70 with
changes to 1970-71.
THE COURT: Exhibit No. 13.
(The map referred to above waa marked
Exhibit No. 13 for identification
and received in evidence.)
U What does this map indicate7
a This is the single zone for elementary schools
in operation *69-'70 with changes to the '70-'71.
U All right. What was that change?
A We had two changes in the elementary, one out
in the extreme right was a change from Eastdale to Woocfcore
and it's almost identical to about eight years ago when that
was changed from Woodmore to Eastdale.
At that time we changed Eastdale because of the
overcrowded condition at Woodmore and this time Woockaore had
space for the group, the group, as 1 said before, was closer
to Woodiuore, therefore, changed back to Woockore because they
could house the people in the proximity to the group.
C- Do you know how many children were involved in
that shift to Woodmore?
A l believe we estimated 25— estimated ten, ten.
R i L M A H i ft r A M Y H S v H I A N l A ^ S O t I A I * S 1 writ ' 1 S H C I I I H ' - N I I HI I ’O R T L K S
H I » h f M A i f I ' ■ A ( ♦ I ' . I H B F I I
Taylor Direct 79
<j Do you know whether they were Black or white?
A 1 believe they were both, they were both, both
races.
U All right. What was the racial composition of
Eastdale in '69-'70 prior to the change?
A One hundred fifty black, 216 white. 411.
Q All right. What was the racial composition of
Woodtuore prior to the change?
A Eighteen black. 505 white. 523.
v All right. What was the racial composition of
Kastdale after this change?
A Two hundred thirty-four Black, 180 white, 414.
^ All right. Do you have any idea what accounted
for the substantial increase in the number of Black students
at Kastdale in one year from 150 to 234?
A People moved of a different race,
g Does the zone have anything to do with it?
A No, not to speak of. The zone would have a
negative effect to the number, some were zoned out to
Woockaore.
t j What was the racial composition of Woodmore
after the change?
A Woodnore, 22 Black. 451 white, 473.
u All right. Does that take care of all of the
changes on that map?
R l ( K A M I - 13 S M I I N A N D A s s O < ' A T f c S
( I N ! i I a * •» 1M : I A N . i Ml M O R I l ^ S
R f »• 1 Ml N< I. M A P ' N l - A U H U B B F . I . L
Taylor - Direct 80
A No, sir. There is a little change in the
Avondale area, it*a hard to indicate there. There is one
street that is about three blocks of the school that was
zoned to the Avondale from East Chattanooga. Avondale
enrollment decreased a little and there is another case of
where youngsters have to go to a school a long distance from
their home when they live right close to one.
I
The best example I guess we have because of
j! building capacity, but we were able to relieve it a little
on that street, about five, I guess, no. estimated ten. ten
! j
pupils lived there that got to go closer to home, went to
i
Avondale instead of going up to East Chattanooga,
u Now, Nr. Taylor, I believe that covers all zone
changes for elementary schools up to the present time?
A I believe we touched on every map.
(j All right, sir. Now, the junior high school maps,
ii '
where are they?
Nr. Taylor. I forgot to ask you, was race a part,
iiave to any extent a part of your decision with reference to
the changes there that were effected in the 1969 and *70 and
in '70-'71?
j a Mere not.
g Nr. Taylor, will you identify the map that is
on the stand?
A This is the single zone junior high school that
N m M A U k N v B S M i t l i A N D A s s ( j t ' A r t ! ,
( H i l l | ! * » ‘ A N ! ' Wt C O P T K H b
u r < *■ Wl N' 1 M A H I ' M ) A I . F M . J B B F L
Taylor - Direct 81
|
were applicable to the seventh grade in 1965—86.
(j Would you make that an exhibit to your testimony?
THE COURT: Exhibit No. 14.
(The map referred to above was marked
Exhibit No. 14 for identification
and received in evidence.)
g Does the structuring of zones for a junior high
school present any problems of a different character from
that of structuring zones for an elementary school?
A In other words, the elementary have some influence
on the junior hrgh and the school administration, in other
words, it has been our goal, or effort, to try to keep the
junior high schools co-terminus with the feeder schools.
In other words, the feeder school zones, junior
high, would cover complete feeder schools because they have
the transfer of records and the orientation days and many
other things to facilitate the educational procedure if they
could be arranged that way. We are not that way completely
but we made an effort, that was our major prevailing premise
as established in the same for the junior high school and
the capacity of the building.
g Was this map prepared for purposes of the initial
desegregation of the seventh grade in the Chattanooga System?
A That is correct. This is the first map that was
used in the seventh grade desegregation.
g Did you have a part in the preparation of these
R l l . M A H U ft ' A t > * > b ■■» M ' r n A N D A S S O C l A T F S
• j ; .HOF* ' M A N i HI f’ O H I t . H S
W I N ' 1 M A C N O A • I HI- » I- U H H » .
Taylor - Direct 82
particular school zones?
a I did.
w What factors did you take into consideration in
setting up the attendance areas?
A The capacity of the junior high facility and
trying to get co-terminus elementary zones with the junior
high facility, which is a point in any school.
Q Did race play any part in your decisions with
reference to these zones?
A it did not.
U To your knowledge was race discussed as a part
or a reason for any of these zones by any of your colleagues
when you were attempting to make this decision?
A I don't recall any.
<j Do you recall the Board making any reference to
race as they made these decisions?
A 1 do not.
w Now, the next map has the legend 1965-66 with
changes to 1966-67.
Mr. Taylor, would you identify this map, please?
A This is a map that was used for the seventh
grade in showing the changes to the following year when all
three grades in the junior high were single zoned, so all
throe grades will be shown by the changes.
0 How many separate zone changes do you identify?
R - ; H A I . O 8( ( a s h y B S M ' r H A N D A s S O e i A T t S
C E R l l M S H O W T H A N H Wf c W O R 7 t W >
H h F K H I N t fr m a i m A l l H I J B B E i '
Taylor - Direct 83 II
i;
i;;
! I
1 >|iIH*
IT
i * i
■•ii
ii
i
• i
ii
A Two, I guess.
i call your attention to the zone change that
is in the area immediately south of the Tennessee River and
between the Tennessee River and the Southern Railway yard
and Erlanger Hospital. What was there, what was the purpose
for this zone change?
A That was the no-man's land that 1 mentioned
before and it was zoned for that junior high to make it
co-terminus with its elementary schools, you see, it was
zoned an elementary school.
^ In other words, you indicate that no elementary
pupils were involved m that zone change?
A In junior high.
And in junior high?
A As far as my knowledge.
q All rrght. Now, to the south and east of that
zone change there appears to be another zone change, what
was that?
A That was a changing of that section, as in the
elementary, was Avondale Elementary, an overcrowded condition
and moved it down to the Orchard Knob and this is moving that
section to the Orchard Knob Junior High, you see, '65-'66,
only the seventh grade followed this zone map, single zone,
the eighth and ninth went back to the old pattern as shown
on these others and the '67—*68, *66—'67 year, which this is
R l ( i i a HI H C V B S M . T H * N l l A b S O < I A H - S
I R 1 I el ' i l i O H H A N I l M V H O R U R 8
W H F H I K l M A R i I N l , A 1 I • M J B B l l . L
Taylor - Direct 84
zoning into, then the eighth and ninth came into these zones.(
i
so Orchard Knob had some eighth and ninth attending it from
a larger area that vent somewhere else the next year, which
gave it a capacity to assume this section here, in other
words. 1 didn’t say it. well, but that’s what happened.
Are you stating that these zone changes were
applicable to the first year in the Chattanooga System in
which there was complete desegregation with reference to
junior highs?
A That's right, the resulting—
(Interposing) 1967?
A The changes made there, that was what caused the
first year of all junior highs being singled zoned.
q Then after 1966-1967 dual zones as such were
terminated in the City System?
A That is correct.
q Let's move to the next map. You haven’t got all
the changes yet.
THE COURT: Is that 15?
MR. WITT: I am sorry, your Honor, there's same
more changes there. I am about to forget.
Vf t\r. Taylor, down in the East Lake-Kossville
Boulevard area there appears to be a change.
A I'd like to preface the statement on that change
back to the elementary zones of that same year where we had
R.charl- a ’>51 13 AND ASaO- >'IS
C t w n ' . t o J H O K ' A M C O B ’ f R S
R f c I F R F N i E M * ! ' 1 N l i A l E H U B B t L L ,
li
jj a section above the line going to Hemlock and a section front
Davenport going to Clifton Hills, that was close to Clifton
Hills, so we zoned it close to Clifton Hills and when it came
to the junior high picture this location, the three eligible
I
junior highs was front the center of it. it was two miles to
each one of them as you would go by street, and the decision
of the board was to make it an optional zone, therefore, that
section that is in there with those big arrows coming out of
i1 ^it. a junior high pupil living in that one part has the
II
opportunity to go to East Lake Elementary. East Side
Eleiaentary or, I mean Junior High, East Lake Junior High,
ji
East Side Junior High, or Howard Junior High, and from the
center of it it is approximately two miles to any one of them.
Q Do you know the racial composition of the student,
affected by that option zone?
j A It is both races that live in the zone.
<j Do you have any idea of approximately how many?
ij
A I don't know, about half, I'd say about half and
half, but I don't know.
(j What was the racial composition of East Lake
Junior High School prior to that change?
A East Lake Junior High, zero black. 580 white,
500 total.
0 All rxght. What about the racial composition of
the Hast Side Junior High?
f- fn H A W N H t A S t • fci ‘ l M l l t l A N N A ' s S O M A l f ••
I I w • • i n •. M O M ' M A U I > Kt I ' O H U H S
Taylor - Direct 85
W» I I <ti I MA W n a M M B H I
Taylor - Direct 86
t i
i ■
if.
17
I"' l|
IIl!» I
A East Side, 27 black, 627 white, 654 total,
v All right. I believe the other one was Howard
Junior High.
A 1 don't have Howard individually.
0 You have Howard as a total 1 through 12, what
was it?
A Howard 1 through 12 total was, '65-'66, 2,850)
black, three whate, and 2,853 total.
q How, as a result of that optional zone change
what was the composition of East Side Junior High in the
next year of '66-*67?
A black, 91, white, 618, and 709 total.
So there was an increase of 27 black to 91 blacks
after that option zone took effect?
A But. like I say, the optional zone in itself
didn't bring about that total, it's the year that— the next
year the eighth and ninth grades came into East Side, two
things working.
Any other changes on that map, Hr. Taylor, that
you have not described?
A Not to my knowledge.
g Mr. Taylor, as you functioned with reference to
those changes as a part of the administrative team of the
Chattanooga School System dxd you take race into consideration
while you were making these changes?
R|l H A R D • A t3 S M ' I H a n i A s s o d i a t f s
r t IV • I > H ' k l I A N I P O P I t Mb
H E M t ' F N ' l v a, R • i n I ) A i i M U B B H l
Taylor - Direct 67
||
iI!
I
I'
li
M
Ml
I
A Mo, sir.
Q Mext majp, please. The next map. Mr. Taylor,
bears the legend 1966-67 with changes to 1967-66. Would you
describe this map?
A That map is the single zone map that was used for
the total, I mean all of the junior high grades, 7 through 9,
where they changed to the ' 6 7 - ' 6 8 school year.
u 1 believe this has not been introduced as an
exhibit. Would you make this an exhibit to your testimony?
•nib COURT: Exhibit 16.
(The map referred to above was marked
Exhibit Mo. 16 for identification
and received in evidence.)
0 Fran here it only looks like there was one change.
Mr. Taylor, is this correct?
A That is correct.
q Would you describe this change? It appears to be
in the Clara Carpenter-Last Fifth Street area.
A That's involved in the establishment of the
middle school at East Fifth Street and the Grades 7 and Q
are covered there to go to East Fifth and the Grade 9 in
that same area goes to Riverside, and Grades 7 and 8 was
removed from Riverside to East Fifth and Grade 9 remained
at Riverside, is a better explanation of it.
<j All right. Let's take it one step at a time.
Is this the zone change that took plaice at the time Clara
R i - H A R D Hr A S I • L3 S M ( H A N D A s ^ O l 1 A M S
< » W T < i i n S M O f M A N M W h P O R T I H S
i «E> f »«• N' . f M A R I N . J A l t Hi 8B I I
Taylor - Direct 88
Carpenter was made or became a middle school for the first
four grades?
A That is correct.
U Well, how does this affect the junior high zone?
I am confused and 1 thought you could straighten me out.
A I seem to be confused, too. What I was saying
happened, when we formed the middle school, we will get the
year of the middle school, *67-*68, that's right, we are
talking about the middle school, what 1 said— 1 take back
what I said.
Q Why did that require a zone change for the junior
high?
A Up until that year the junior high in that area
were included in the Riverside complex of 7 through 12,
Riverside buildings, arid when we went into the middle school
grades 7 and 8 were r«ooved from the Riverside building into
the bast Fifth Street building and so that is a change, just
those two grades, they changed locations from the white spot
up there down to the darker spot across the street.
ij m other words, the junior high school students
that were in that area went to one of these schools?
A The junior high school students prior to that
year went to Riverside. 7 through 9.
0 Prior to thxs year?
A Yes. In other words, *C6-'67 they went to
P t, A R P H A->1 . B T W A N D A s S O f l A ' t S
t l H t • i . , ' > H U R I ' - A N I ! P O R 1 » »•
W f- > MV » N ■ » M A R 1 N l ' A , I " n 8 p l . I
Taylor - Direct
I
89
1 1 !i
l.i
Riverside. '67-*68 only the ninth grade remained at Riverside
Grades 7 and 8 vent to the East Fifth Street building.
<U Then you are saying that the junior high students
under that zone were divided between two schools, one
Riverside and one East Fifth?
A That's right. I agree with you.
Q Was the capacity of these schools, was this the
basis for this decision?
A The basis of it was the project of establishing
of a middle school, which was— the literature was saying the
tiling that you should have. I can't respond to the
philosophical reasons for a middle school, someone else
will have to do that, but that involved Grades 5 through 8
and to have a 5 through 8 you had to get the pupils 5 through
8 to accept the building.
Q You took some 1 to 4 students away from Fifth
Street and moved them to Clara Carpenter?
A That's right.
<j This created a vacancy in East Fifth Street?
A Right.
O Then the Riverside. 1 mean the junior high
students were moved to East Fifth Street to fiii up that
vacancy?
A That'3 right. Those three grades left Riverside
and Riverside was at a crowded capacity type of situation.
b Sf** A N i 4 S S O < I A I t ‘
■ t I I h i • " b i
Taylor - Direct 90
so it did help that way, but that wasn't the issue.
<J Were there any results in changes of racial
make-up the schools as a result of these changes?
A hot to my knowledge, the same pupils, only
changing pupils.
Q I call your attention to the racial make-up of
Riverside in 1966-67.
A 1966, Grades 7 through 12. 1987 black, two white*
1989.
Q All right. What was it the next year?
A The next year was 1522 black, one white. 1523.
U All right, how, look at hast Fifth Street
School.
A East Fifth. *66-*67, Grades 1 through 6. East
Fifth, 610 black, 24 white, 634.
In *67-'68, Grades 5 through 8, 547 black, nine
white, or 556.
Q Out the grades served were substantially changed
and for comparison are inadequate?
A Yes.
hext one.
THE COURT: Are you ready to start on another
map?
MR. WITT: Yes.
THE COURT: Suppose we take the noon recess at
R' < M A R I ; ft A S H Y b S M ' T H A N I ) A S S O C I A T E S
I H I M H > S H O W T H A N f ) M l i - O I ’ I M S
'F F f c H i N t M A n t • Ml >AL» I I U B B R I
Taylor - Direct 91
this time. Let's be in recess for one hour and resume the
trial. We have an arraignment at one o'clock so this trial
will be recessed until 1:15.
(Thereupon, at twelve o'clock noon the hearing
was adjourned in this cause until 1:15 o'clock p.m.)
a f y& & & &. ssasaoM
1:15 O'clock P.M.
April 14, 1971
(Thereupon, pursuant to adjournment for the noon
recess, the trial was resumed.)
THE COURT: Are we ready to resume the hearing
now, gentlemen? If so, we may continue with the examination
of Dr. Taylor.
BY MK. WITT:
Q 1 direct your attention to the map on the left,
which is 1967-68, and we have placed on it, 1 mean on the
right, excuse me, on the left we have placed the comparable
map for the elementary zone changes for the same year.
Mr. Taylor, starting again from, I believe, from
the east and moving to the west, describe each zone change.
A On the extreme right or the east is the annexed
area of the airport region and the junior students ware
zoned to Elbert Long School.
y How, Mr. Taylor, since the subpoena requested
information as to annexation, the dates, do you have in the
H A R O 8r i ' . A S t v H S M T H A N D A S O O C l A T f A
. i R t i t f , . I I O M I ' I A N M R I P O R U R S
R I N t ' l U B B H L
Taylor - Direct 92
material has already been indicated an exhibit the date
of that annexation that you refer to there, or do you have
that in this material?
A It is in two places. It is on the statistical
report, it would show the school, whether it is consolidated,
annexed, when one closed and one opened, and it would show
that wouldn't show whether or not— this is on buildings. so
it would have to be in your exhibit material No. 7, I guess,
y we haven’t gotten to that one yet.
j\ No. 7 on your subpoena material.
q All right. Now. how many students were involved
in tills zone change, or do you know?
A Approximately 29.
q All right. Do you have any idea whether they
were black or white?
A I do not know the race of them, both races live
within the zone.
U All right. Now. what is the next zone change?
A The next one is a little flood plain area there
without any students, was zoned to Dalewood.
q Now, I believe you testified with regard to
elementary schools, that there were no students in that
area as far as you knew.
A That's correct.
0 All right. What is the next zone change?
Rl < H A R D rt v. A S t f I t S M I T H A N D A s S O < ' * T f S
, | w i i ■» ( ) S H O R T H A N D t-'l R O R I I
K t - f f - R f N f T M O B 1 N D A l f H U B B F l l
Taylor - Direct 93
♦
A Tho next zone change la the Mountain Creek area
on the extreme left and that vaa zoned to North Chattanooga
Junior High School.
Q Which la the only junior high achooi north of
tho river served toy the City System?
A That la correct.
U All right, what vaa the racial composition at
Elbert Long in 1967-68, junior high achooi?
A 1 do not have it by junior high, 1 have it 1
through 9, 1967-68, it was 18 black, 525 white, 543 total
for the two schools, two sections.
U All right. What was it in 1968-69?
A Forty-seven black, 634 white, 681.
Q So following this zone change the hlack population
at Elbert Long increased from 18 to 47?
A Grades 1 through 9, correct.
Q And these are the only statistics you have for
Libert Long?
A Yes.
q All right. Nov, was the North Chattanooga
Junior High School, what was its racial composition in 1967-
68?
A Seventy-one black, 165 white, 236 total, no, I
read the wrong one.
Q That's right, you did.
. M A U I - * A ,| ts S M > H A N I . A S S O l ' A T I *
<. h w • i i l ) I • i A N I* Ml P O R T
N' I I M M i F M ti B H F l L
Taylor - Direct 94
i
■
ji
i'
A Back ever. 54 black, 605 white, 659 total.
U All right. The next year.
a Sixty-one black, 674 white, 735 total.
Q There was an increase of black students of eight,
is that correct?
A That is correct, seven, l believe, seven.
Q All right. Any other changes with reference to
the junior high school zones on that map?
A Mo.
Q All right. Would you turn to the next map,
please?
THE MARSHAL: Do you want to mark this an exhibit*
Mk. WITT: That one has not been marked.
THE COURT: That will be Exhibit Mo. 17.
(The map referred to above was marked
Exhibit Mo. 17 for identification
and received in evidence.)
L Mow, Mr. Taylor, 1 direct your attention to this
iaap, this is 1968-69 with changes to *69 to 1970, and this
is junior high schools only, would you make this the next
exhibit, 1 believe, to your testimony, 18?
THE COURT: Exhibit 18.
(The map referred to above was marked
Exhibit Mo. 18 for identification
and received in evidence.)
U How many zone changes does this represent, Mr.
Taylor?
R h A a •» > B S m ' h a n *' A s*!»0< i a t i s
. r M ! " . S I l O R M A N D R* C O H T t R S
» < t l fcWI N. I M A H I N U A l * K U B H I I
Taylor - Direct 95
10
11
ij
i.(
14
K>
10
17
IK
1!'
Ml
L'-'t
L't
A These are two zone changes.
H All right, would you describe the basis for the
zone change outlined in orange south of the Tennessee River
to the Dan?
A That is a newly annexed area in the Msiloola-
Roland Hayes region, it was zoned to llardy Junior High School.
q All right. What is the other junior high school
that is nearest to that area?
A It would be Orchard Knob Junior High School is
the closest.
q So then this was zoned to the high school, 1 wean
the junior high school adjacent to the area annexed?
A That is correct.
q All right. How, what is the racial composition
at llardy Junior High school prior to this annexation, '68-'69?
A Three hundred and four black, 305 white, 609
total.
q All right. What was it after the annexation,
after the zone change?
a Three hundred eight-four black. 268 white, 652
total.
(j so there was an Increase of 80 black students in
Hardy Junior School after this zone change?
A That is correct.
q All right. What was the other zone change north
R i c h a r d 8 C a s e y b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R ’ I E ' E L ) S H O R ’ H A N O R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T ' N i J A L t M I J B B E . L L
Taylor - Direct 96
of the river?
it w m t.tv* Rivermont-bupton City area and it waa
zoned to north Chattanooga Junior High Sch ool, the adjacent
school, junior high school zone.
q All right. What was the racial composition at
North Chattanooga Junior High School before this annexation?
A *68-'69, it was 61 black, 674 white, 735 total.
Q All right, /ifter the zone change?
A Sixty-three black, 744 white, 807 total.
q Increase of two black students at North Chattanooga
Junior High, is that correct?
A That is correct.
q is there more than one junior high school north
of the river?
A Only one.
^ so this area was zoned to the nearest h igh school,
junior high school?
A Nearest junior high school.
g The area marked in pink, does this represent the
total area in that location, in that general location that
was annexed on that side of the river?
A That is correct.
q And is th<> sawe thing true of the area south o±
the river?
A That is correct.
R i c h a r d A C a s e v B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C I . R 1 I H ) S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
i<| | M i l N> fc M A R I l N O A l » H l J B B t L I
Taylor - Direct. 97
Q Are there any other changes on that junior high
school map. Hr. Taylor?
A No* sir.
q All right. Let's have the other map.
Now. Hr. Taylor, this map bears the legend 1969-
70 with changes to 1970-71. Would you make this the next
exhibit* I believe it would be 18?
THE COURT: Number 19.
g Number 19 to your testimony?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
(The map referred to above was marked
Exhibit No. 19 for identification
and received in evidence.)
q What does this purport to show?
a The zones for 1969-70 and said changes, but there
was not any changes* it's the same for *70 and '71 as *69-'70.
g So this is the way the zones for the junior high
schools in the City School System are as of the present
moment, is this correct?
A That is correct.
Q All right. Mr. Taylor, going back to the changes
that were affected in '68-*69 to '69-'70 insofar as your
responsibility was concerned* did race have any bearing upon
decisions you made with reference to those zone changes?
A Did not.
q To your knowledge did race have a bearing on
R i c h a r d A C a s e v b S m i t h a n o A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T l * ' E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T ' N D A l E M U BBF. L L
Taylor - Diroct
those zone changes for the school system, to your knowledge?
A To isy knowledge it did not.
q How. Mr. Taylor. I believe that you previously
i!
\ stated that you prepared a statistical report on pupil!i!
desegregation for the Chattanooga Public Schools dated
October the 16th. 1970, is this correct, was this prepared?
A That is correct.
q What is the significance of the tenth day of
enrollment?
A In other words, that is the day that we use in
the projection of the allotment of teaching staffs to schools
based on the formula allotment mod it is the date of the
allocation of structure supplies to school s according to the
of pupils enrolled and it is the date that we keep
annual projections from one year to another.
In other words, it is our day of accounting, I
guess, of our changes in pupil accounting one year to the
next year, a comparison date.
q In other words, with reference to statistical
data of this kind, is this the key date for the entire school
year?
A That is correct.
U What does this show with regard to the gain or
decrease in pupils in the system in the last two years?
A We have decreased for the last four years, the
98
R i c h a r d A C a s e y b S m i t h a n d a s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R F P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T I N D A L E H U B B E L L
Taylor - Direct. 99
last two years it has bean a decrease each year*
q Was decrease in black students or shite
students or both?
A Well* this given year the decrease in both* in
other words. 1970-71 decreased from 1969 to 1970, both races
decreased in number.
q Decrease in the black students was 211, is that
correct?
A
y
A
Q
That is correct.
What was it for the white students?
Eight hundred forty-six.
Was there any annexation effective during those
years?
A There was during the previous year* for this
given year of *70— *71 there was not any.
y All right. Then for the *69-*70 those figures
reflect annexation?
A They reflect annexation,
y Of what schools?
a Be annexation of Rivenaont, annexation of
/aim x col a and the corresponding junior high school students
going to North Chattanooga Junior High and Hardy Junior High*
g Mr. Taylor, I wish you would identify the schools
from this statistical data that are now all black.
A Page lb of 3 is the schools that were formerly
R I < H A R D ft C a s e y B s m i t h a n d A s s o c i a i e s
G E R T I E I F. D S H O H I H A N O K « - P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T l N O A G E H U B B E L G
Taylor - Direct 100
10
11
identified with black students. Howard School is all black.
Orchard Knob Junior High, all black, Donaldson, all black,
Henry, all black, and Trotter all black.
q That covers junior highs, senior hxghs and
i;
ij elementary?I;
jj‘ ' a Tliat covers the attendance centers that were
iorderly all black students.
' g That is five schools that were fortaerly classi
fied in the *ii black category that remain in that category?
a That is correct.
u a s of the tenth day of school, 1970-71?
A That is correct.
g All right, will you identify the schools that
were classified as fortaerly all %Aiite that are now all %*u.te?
A Page 2b of 3. no. it's going to be two pages.
2b ot 3 and 3b of 3. On Page 2b of 3. Cedar Hill, all white.
On page--
g (Interposing) That, I believe, Cedar Hill, its
southern zone lies the same as the Georgia State Line?
A That is correct.
g All right. Now, what is the next school?
^ On Page 3b of 3, Normal Park, Pineville,
Rivenoonth.
•j i g All right. I believe Pineville was annexed?
A That is correct.
R l C M A R U a C . A S H B ^ M t H A N D A S S O C I A T E S
C . E R T t F ' E O S H O W * H A N D « M ’ O R T t H S
R E I b R I N I f M A P * N O A L F It J B B f t L
Mi
IT
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l*i
Taylor - Direct 101
u
A
U
A
Q
A
0
annexed?
A
Q
annexed?
A
When?
This is the third year of operation.
Whan van KiVermont annexed?
This ia the aecond year of operation.
Formerly county schoola?
That ia correct.
And they were all white at the time they were
That*a correct.
Was Roland Hayes all black at the time it was
Roland Hayes, this morning I said that pre-
dofuinantiy was all black. 1 checked with the former
principal or employee, she said it was all black, so it was
all black.
<j Annicola?
A Aunicola was predominantly white. To the best
of my knowledge when I visited the school at the time it
was three or four black children attending the school.
g All right. So now we have five all black
schools in the City School System and four all white schoolsf *
in the City School System, is this correct?
A That is correct.
q liow many schools are in the City School System?
A Forty-seven attendance centers.
« * u * A N i h C * s t v B S m t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C t P ' i . I P . S - < O R ' - . A N D H l n O R T l PS»
* M A R ' - N O A Ck. H U B B E U
Taylor - Direct 102
u Mr. Taylor. I now direct your attention to
Page 2 of 2. which ia the* last page in your exhibit that
we are now discussing.
A The last page? All right, sir.
U As of the tenth day of school. 1970-71, what
per cent of the white students are attending schools that
are desegregated?
A Percentage of the white pupils attending a
desegregated situation. 89.3.
g What percentage of the black students are
attending schools that are desegregated?
A 65.6.
g What are number of students attending schools.
number of black students attending schools now that were
formerly classified as all white?
A If 1 understand you correctly, white students
that are attending a desegregated situation, 11,875.
g Perhaps you can explain your analysis at the
bottom of that page, maybe that is better for you to do it
that way.
A Weil, the analysis of enrollment data, that is
the last part of that page, the first part is the number of
pupils enrolled in Grades 1 through 12 on the tenth day of
this year, we had 12,669 black pupils, 13.298 white pupils
for a total enrollment of 23,967, and that reflected.as we
R i c h a r d 8 C a s i - v B S m i t h a n d A s s o c a f e s
C f R T H i n S H O R ' H A N O R l I’ O R T t R S
R E F E R E N C E M A P ■ N O A l . F . H i j B R L l U
Taylor - Diroct 103
pointed out before, a loaa of 211 black pupils from the
previous year and the loss of 846 white pupils, for a total
loss of 1,057 pupils.
Now, the next line, pupils enrolled in actually
desegregated schools, this is the black pupils, 8,306 out
of the 12,669 were enrolled in a school that a white student !
or laore find the white pupils out of the 13,298, 11,875 were
attending with the apposite race, a total of 20,181 of our
pupils attending situations that are black and %hxte inij
their school attendance.
Now, out of the 25, now, the next column is the
pupils enrolled in schools formerly of another race, 3,446
black pupils are attending schools, formerly white schools,
we call it, 48 white students are attending schools that we
formerly classified as black, or a total of 3,494 pupils
are attending across race lines, that represents a gain of
454 for this given year.
The bottom line is tbe per cent of the black
pupils attending actually desegregated situations were 65.6,
which is a gain of 20.7 this year over last year. 89.3, a
gain of 6.6 per cent, and 77.7 of the total student body,
which was a gain of 12.7.
y All right. Turn to Page 1 of 2. Mr. Taylor,
with reference to the statistical analysis at the tnae
desegregation commenced when Grades 1 through 3 were first
i
R ' t H A H U 8 B S M i T H A N D A S S O C I A T E S
C J R T ( i f O J a H O W l i A N O b f P O P Tt- R S
ht.h fcMfc N*. I M A P - N O A I f - " U B B k l L
Taylor - Direct 104
desegregated. What was the per cent of the total enrollment
in schools actually desegregated the first year?
A 8.2 per cent.
i
q How many pupils were involved?
A Two thousand one hundred eighty-six.
Q All right. Then in 1964-65 when Grades 1 through j
7 were desegregated, what was the result?
A Total of 20.6.
!!
10
I I
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i ;
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18
1
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Q Liow many students?
A Five thousand six hundred and fifty-five.
0 All right. When all Grades 1 through 12 were
first desegregated what was the percentage of the total
student population of the City School System in a desegre
gated environment?
A The percentage was 43.4.
U How many students?
A Eleven thousand nine hundred and twenty-five,
g All right. Then the second year of full
desegregation, this moved to 57.2, is this correct?
A That is correct.
(j And then the next year it was 64.3, is this
correct?
A That is correct.
U Then it went to 77.3, is that correct?
A That's correct.
R l t . H A H l ft C ' A b l - V B 8 M i T H A N L ) A S S O i l A T f S
C E R I I I ?. D S H O R T H A N D Ml P O R I L R i
WfcF f M I N ' I M A R N O AI • H l J B B I I I
105pc 4 Taylor - Direct
I :f
IT
in
u Do you have an explanation for that drop?
A We annexed some areas that were predominantly
white.
u Mr. Taylor, just for the sake of being conplete, i
would you explain briefly what the pupil report No. 3 entitled)
"Tenth Day Pupil Enrollment For The System By Grade And By
Year" means and why it is included? I don't want you to
explain all of those figures but just simply tell us why it
is in here and what you are attempting to show.
A I will point out one feature on it. hook at the
first page of 1945-46 and an arrow going down diagonally.
L* Yes.
A Under that is the per cent that returned from
the previous year, out of the 2748 in 1945-46 86.5 were in
the second grade, of the 2376 that were in the second grade
21.30 or 91.3 per cent were in the next grade.
MR. WILLIAMS: I ara just not— I don't know where
we are.
THE COURT: Third blue page in this report.
HR. WILLIAMS: All right, fine.
q This illustrates the holding power of the
Chattanooga School System from the first grade through the
twelfth grade?
A That is correct. The net resulting number of
bodies we have in school, same go out and some come in, but
A * . S ( R i * i I 'C B M I H
i << n - A N i
» < M I > H'JBtl l
Taylor - Direct 106
; l!
10
11
1J
1!
1 I
1.')
1'.
17
IS
10
•Jl
that * a the net result.
Lt The net result?
A Yes. And the statistical record we keep of that i
and that's the reason we reported it. This report was pri
marily prepared for the hoard of Education for their con
sumption.
It has no reference to race of the students, is
this correct?
A That is correct.
g I'd like to shift to these other maps. Mr. Taylor,
this says, "Pupil Locator Map-Second Grade" and that is all
I can read from here. Don't you have some additional
material that goes with this?
A Those tables that are posted on the left have
some figures on there, there are copies of that that axe
available. It is the same, no, it is not the same.
THU COURT: Mark the second grade Exhibit 20
and the seventh grade as Exhibit 21.
(The maps referred to above were
marked Exhibit bos. 20 and 21 for
identification and received in
evidence.)
q Now. Mr. T ylor, was this map prepared under
your supervision?
A It was a dual supervision, Mr. Dean Holt and
others in the Division of Pupil Personnel Services had a
r . ( p l i i i ( M S H O R 1 H A N D P M ’ O K l f R S
P f M - N k N - fc M A R " N O AI F H u B B F l . L
Taylor - Direct 107 1
large responsibility in getting it prepared.
(j What does it show?
A It shows, in the map on the left—
(Interposing) bet's direct ourselves to the
isecond grade first.
I;
j: A Second grade?
|j u Yes.
A In other words, it shews the location of the
pupils on the tenth day of school, where they live, and I
don't knew the two colors that are there, one is a green,
! one is a block, I believe, one of them represents a black
child and one of them represents a white child.
0 Each dot represents a child?
A Represents a child.
0 And these dots, were they placed in the area
without reference to where the child lived or do they attempti
to identify where the child actually lives?
a The principal of the school was instructed to
place the dot to the nearest possible place the child lived.
The map was cut up into parts and each principal had his own,
he administering placing his dots, then it was brought back
and glued together and re-assembled so it is different
responsibilities to place the dots but their instructions
wore to place the dot where the child lived in that sane.
0 What are the silver pins, what do they indicate?
•• '<1 H **..»■ * O T A T H A N l A M - .
i i h ' i n s i o i r . 'A N L ) i ' I m o r i i «■>! • ■l i , ( M A I 'A l
i
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Taylor - Direct 108
A That's as near as possible where the location
of thu school is within that school zone, that's the location
of attendance centers, one or two might cover up a dot but
1 don't think that many of them do.
y All right. I hand you a document that in the
first place is entitled "High S c h o o ls-Tenth Day Enrollment
Data 1970-71" it is composed of five sheets. Would you
make this the next exhibit to your testimony?
Tin: COURT: Exhibit No. 22.
(The Tenth Day Enrollment Data 1970-
7 1 was Exhibit No. 22 for
identification and received in
evidence.)
A Mr. Witt, could I give him one of them?
^ Now, this again is as of the tenth day of school?
A That is correct.
q m o w , Mr. Taylor, 1 direct your attention to the
Exhibit No. 21, the wap on the right, vfoat does this purport
to be?
A This is the seventh grade pupils, the same color
scheme applies, and it was prepared in the same order as the
elementary, the junior high principal aAoinistersd the placing
of the dots in their zone.
ij And again what does the silver pins indicate?
A That's the junior high school attendance centers.
U Are there any pocularitiea in either one of the
R i c h a r d ft i ' a s k - B S m . t h a n d A s s o c A T t s
t u m i i M > S H O P ’ H A M » P O B T L » S
w e n k » n c ̂ m a p ’ N O A l t M U B B t U .
Taylor - Direct 10S
i
zones or the maps that you think you should point out and
constant on? I
It was an opportunity to show the expression
co—terminus, you t t h e Hardy No. 6, draw the southern
boundary out of that, across there, and you notice over there
ii
in the elementary school of that map, that southern boundary,
all the eloaentary schools above that, which is Avondale,
I
i Garber and Amnicola and East Chattanooga, are in the Hardy
Junior High zone, so the Hardy Junior High embraces those
four el«.Tent ary schools and on that we tried to follow that
as much as wo could. Some places it is not true, one in
particular is over at— I don't know if I can explain it—
Lookout Junior High School, if I can go to that junior high
zone.
If you look at the elementary over here, Donaidsoan,
the top half of Donaldson, which was the old Sanderson, part
is zoned for junior high to Lookout.
You crme back over to the other, Mr. Holder, you
can point out where the top half goes to lookout and the
other half Donaldson, goes over in part and projecting
enrollment, that does cause us some trouble, but to keep the
capacity at Lookout to the maximum and Alton Park tfeere we
can handle it, entitled to a apace in that elementary zone
to two junior feeder schools, so a few cases like that, but
not most of them, try to get a co-terminus.
R , . H 4 K O ft ' A ' , I • £» T M i T H A N D A* » WO« I A T k S
. | ►> * M I t L* S ' M J R ’ H A N M MK P O H M t ' S
Si | l . t l f N I . L MA| r / i j A : l H l J b U f c l I
Taylor - Direct 110
North of the river is like that oo-terminus and
Elbert bong and so forth.
g Now, the St. Elmo Junior High School is desegre
gated* is it not?
A That's right. You mean Lookout Junior High.
q Lookout Junior High, excuse me. Do you recall
its racial balance?
A Roughly speaking I'd say it would be a third
black and two-thirds white, might be a little greater than
that, might be 40 per cent, I can give it to you exact.
(j All right.
A Eighty-nine black, 148 white, 237.
Q All right, air. Now, are there any other parts
of either map that need an explanation, in your judgpoant, do
you have any optional zones in the junior high level?
A Yes, J-Ha junior high, over in that Moccasin Bend
area as he is pointing out, located there, that's where the
hospxtal is and so forth, that is optional, to our knowledge
there's not any pupils living there, we don't have any record
of any, but whan the city came and purchased this to fcuild
on then we zoned it, had to do something about solving because
the children were a great distance from any junior high
school so it was made optional, though no children there as
yet. We have the optional section down there. Could you
point out the one in that area that we discussed?
R . C H A R D a C A S E V B S M . T H A N D A S S O C I A T E S
C E R T I F I E D S M O H ' H A N U R I P O R T f c B b
RE Ff c - WENt fc M A R I l N D A l E H U B 8 L L L
I
ll
10
11
rj
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11
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17
is
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Taylor - Direct
That area is optional to East Side, East Lake
and Howard and we the center of that was appmotimately
two miles distant frcn any of the schools and this distance
was the reason we are making it optional.
o Mr. Taylor, 1 believe that's the optional zone
that you previously referred to with reference to elementary
schools and also with reference to junior high schools, is
that correct?
A That's correct, that's the same one, that's on
that one and the other optional zone is the north end of
Missionary Ridge that comes down there in the Glenwood
Elementary, the same area, that section is optional to junior
high.
q What is the effect of the optional zone, what
options does an option zone give?
A Well, the parent can select any junior high that
they desire to attend.
q Any junior high in the city?
A Up there where 1 mentioned, the north of
Missionary Ridge and the Glenwood, that area is optional
wiiere they can attend any junior high school.
(j You are saying that the northern end of Kissionar
Ridge is optional, that the people who live there can send
their children to any junior high school in the city?
a That's the way it is worked.
R k H A R I ft » ' j f v B b M ' T H A N D A a S O U A T E S
'LRT • ; fcD a M O R f M A N D RE ►' OPT L R S
R E H RENc. f c M A R ' N U A l E H U B S ! L L i
Taylor - Direct 112
u How did tills cane about?
A It vas the Dalewood School that was being built
and in that section orginally we didn't have a Dalewood, we
i
had a Brainerd Junior High School, and the total Missionary
Ridge zone was part of Brainerd Junior High and the group,
some people up there, 1 guess five or six junior high pupils
in that northern region, and they ashed to go to Dalewood.
There is a road that connects there, which is
closer and the Board decided to give them permission,
<u Do you recall the date when this decision was
made, or approximately?
A 1 guess it was made in •65-'66 or prior to that
time because it appeared on our original map here.
q All right. Is there any other part of that
optional zone that needs an explanation?
A Now, the Glenwood portion for junior high all
is as one zone, one zone option, but the Glenwood portion,
when I say "Glenwood" I mean the elem entary part now, that
was left optional for the reason of the overcrowded conditions
at the Orchard Knob School at the time, that's *65-'66.
(j And then, too, I understand you to say that the
students that live in that optional zone tlien can go to
Orchard Knob or Brainerd Junior High?
A They can go to any junior high school. 1 doubt
if they go anywhere other than Orchard Knob, Dalewood.
|
R K H A R O a C A S t V B S M I T H A N D A l S C K ( A T f c S
C f c RT ifcl) SM O R H A N D B f P O B I t R S
R E F f c H T N C l M A P O N O A t l M U B B t i L
Taylor - Direct H i
10
11
11
Mi
lh
M)
Brainerd and Hardy, maybe aaae in East: Side, that's the
adjacent ones around, but the way it was worded they are
eligible to attend any junior high school, optional zones.
The other wording on the one below down this
one, down here, they are optioned to only three junior highs,
they have to go to one of those three.
y Does your map indicate the num ber of students
in that optional zone that go to Dalewood?
A Ho. sir.
y It merely indicates the number of junior high
school students that live in that zone?
A I can't answer your question, 1 can't tell the
colors there and 1 can't toll what is on the map other than
big lines.
q Well, are the colors there, if you were close
enough could you tell. I mean was the map made up indicating
wixich ones in this area went to Dalewood and which ones want
to Brainerd Junior High and which ones went to Orchard Knob?
a I just do not know. Mr. Holden or som eone else
has to testify to that.
y All right, sir. Now. I'd like to have the
senior high pupil locator for the senior highs.
MU. HOLDEN: Any particular order?
MR. WITT: No, whatever order you have them in.
q Now, Mr. Taylor, before we get to the high school
R i c h a r d & & S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
t . t R T , . H D S h O R T ” A N O R E P O R T E R S
|,'f I K R fc Nv E V A R l N D A l . K M U B S f L l
Taylor - Direct 114
*.
10
10
14
i:>
if.
r .
1."
lit
• j o
J!
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Jl
locator map, and the design of the optional zones that you
referred to, and to your knowledge was race any part of the
|
decision with reference to the creation of or the maintenance ,
of the optional zone?
A No*
q All right. Now, Hr. Taylor, I show you a map,
Kirkman High School, and 1 believe this is a continuation of
the exhibit that shows the high school tenth day of enroll
ment. Was this map prepared under your supervision?
a Partially. Mr. Holden also worked with prepara
tion of the map. The actual dots on the map were done by
the principal of Kirkman Technical High School.
q Will you make that the next exhibit to your
testimony, please, sir?
THE COURT: Exhibit 23. Twenty-four will be
the next one.
(The maps referred to above were
marked Exhibit Nos. 23 and 24 for
identification and received in
evidence.)
Q what do the pins indicate?
A We need the removal of some pins first. The one
on the right, Mr. Holden, remove the pins from the river,
they were just trying to keep the ring from rubbing each
and breaking them down.
Now, the big white pin represents the location
R|- H A R O a C A S b V B S M I T H A N . A s » S O ' M I S
C t R T I I E D S M O R * H A N D H I - M O R T F P S
H F F F . h I N ' I M A P . N O A I K M ' . I B B I L i
Taylor - Direct 115
m
11
l:1
! I
11,
l:i
•'()
of Kirlaiian Technical High School, that is the attendance
center.
How, the little pins, the blue and the yellow
or the blue and the orange, the blue represents the black
pupils and the orange represents the white pupils of the
ten til grade attending Kirkxuan this year on the tenth day of
school, that’s where they said they lived.
(j Each pin is for one student?
A One student.
Q This would indicate that the concentration of
student population at Kirkman was in the East Lake-Highland
Park area, is that correct?
A East Lake, Hardy, North Chattanooga and at. Elmo,
well, in the !£«st Side area. Highland Park. I'd say.
(j The major concentration is in the East Lake-
Highland Park, East Side area?
A Yes. that is correct.
q And this is a concentration in the East Chattanooga
area, another concentration there, is that correct?
A That is correct.
a substantial number of students from St. Elmo
to KirJuoan. is this correct?
A That is correct.
I believe this also would indicate that there
is a white student traveling all the way from the airport
R c m a h i ; ft C a s k * t? S m . t h ^ n o a s s o c i a t e s
■ f . R f i l F 11 S M O K T H A N n H I P O H H H S
Q K K K R K N i K M * P ' ' N f l A L f - H U B B H L
Taylor - Direct 116
to Kirkman to school?
A Yus.
u To Kirkman?
A Yes, sir.
U From the viewpoint of black students, this would
indicate that black students attend Kirkxnan from all over
the city, is this correct as a general statement?
A That eould be correct.
y is any transportation provided for students to
Kar Juiian?
A The transportation of the annexed areas that we
were discussing the last three years, the City Conaissian
provided transportation or provided the facilities that the
people had while they were members of the county, so there
is transportation provided for the Mountain Creek area and
the Kivemont area and the Aimicola area and the airport
area for those, <-Rr***> areas we annexed within the last three
years are provided transportation according to the State
regulation on transportation.
u Are there any students in the RiVermont area
attending Kirkiuan?
A One or two, X see a few dots there,
v; Do you know what percentage of the student body
at Kirkiuan receives transportation assistance?
A 1 do not. It wouldn't be much, though , there's
R l ( H A H I ) 0 C' AWf t v B » M 1 f H A N D A S S O C I A T t S
O H M H I ) S H O H I H A N I I r f f>o f » t » n*»
R I F I K t N < f M A H ' N I I A I t i l l I B H t l l.
Taylor - Direct 117
a third of the student body and very few out there over in
that area, there* s very few, be a email percentage.
U What ia the racial composition of Kirkman?
A 1970-71, 129 black, 1,089 white, and 1218 total
Q Hr. Taylor, Kirkiaan was initially desegregated
in 1966-67. How many black students went to Kirkiaan that
first year?
A One.
U How many went the second year?
A Three.
Q How many went the third year?
A Twenty-nine.
Q How many want the fourth year?
A Sixty-four.
U How many went the fifth year?
A One hundred twenty-nine.
0 Is there any school, high school, in the
Chattanooga School sy*t«*fl that is comparable to Kirkiaan?
A No, sir, it's a technical high school, it has
a different curriculum. Some of the others have some
vocational, offer some vocations, as far as that is concerned
but Kirkiaan has a vocational program and the others have a
comprehensive vocational program.
g What do you mean when you use the word
■vocational"?
R . L H A R I ) tk » ' A V b h M i ' H A N I ) A S k O C I A T t S
1 H i S H O N ^ ' A N D ' U P O R T l R S
w C » - A - « k N ( E M A R 1 N D A i D M ' J B B L l I
Taylor - Direct 118
A That ia that the primary purpose is to tram
people to out into employment that doesn't require higher
education.
g By "higher education” do you mean above the
twelfth grade?
A Not necessarily, four-year college preparatory
course. 1 mean they are not planning for that, is what I am
trying to say. In other words, additional technical training
could be proper for a vocational student and it would be
proper in his future life if he is going to be a success in
any craft, like an area of vocational school and the
Chattanooga Technical Institution where they have continued
training.
g Would you describe the difference between a
vocational school and a technical school?
A A technical tiigh school or a vocational high
school or a technical junior college?
g Vocational high school compared with a technical
high school.
A A vocational is the amount of the curriculum
that is for the vocational part, that deals more with the
manipulative skills, for instance, in the machine shop it
is mostly manipulative, in other words, mostly manipulative
compared to electronics, which has some manipulation but it
is more theory involved, so electronics would be classified
R l , H A N D ft i ASfcY B S M I T H A N D A S S O C I A T E S
C f R l . > M - S H O R T H A N D H H ’O R I t - B S
R E F E W f N i F M A M ’ I N O A l F H U B B H L
Taylor - Diroct 119
it I
l
I
■I
>:i
I
as a technical course where house wiring would be classified
as a vocational course. Drafting which you do use seme
skill in drawing the lines but the main thing in the drafting
would be classified as a technical course.
Q Now, Mr. Taylor. let*s move to the map for Br&inerfd
High School, which I believe has been labeled Exhibit 24.
Would you explain what this map attempts to show?
A Shows the tenth grade enrollment of Brainsrd
High School on the tenth day of school 1970-71 and the white
pin again indicates the locations of the attendance center.
Braxnerd High School, and the pins, the blue pins, is the
black students and the orange pins are the white students.
q Do any students from north of the river, black
or white, go to Brainerd?
A 1 see one pin over there, very few.
y I call your attention to the number of pins
around tlie airport in the annexed area that are blue, are
they students transported to Brainerd High School?
A Yes, sir.
< And what is the reason for that?
A That is an annexed area there, in the annexed
area they live over a mile and a half front the schoo l,
therefore, transportation is provided for elementary, junior
high, both of those happen to be Elbert Long, and to the
high school.
R t . l M U 9r C A Sȣ r B b M . r n A N . ) A s S O O A T f c S
t f R T I | I L I ' i H O H I H A N D
S ' t U H I ' N I M A W ■ • N I > A I. M i . S B I t L
Taylor - Direct 120
U This would also indicate that a substantial
number of students from the Glenwood or Orchard Knob. Highland
Park area provide their own transportation to Brainsrd High?
A That is correct, west of the Ridge* several do
go by the wap.
Q I'd like to have the next two maps. Mr. Taylor,
while they are putting these maps up with regard to Brainerd
High School, what was the black—1white student population at
brainerd High School when the high schools were first
desegregated?
A Twenty-six, this is 1966-67, 26 black, 1,085
white, 1,111 total.
Q How many black students want there in 1967-68?
A Fifty-four.
Q How many in '68-*69?
A bighty-eight.
(j How many in 1969-70?
A One hundred seventy.
r How many in 1970-71?
A One hundred eighty-four.
Hr. Taylor, on your left is a map labeled
Chattanooga High School, is this a map prepared for the
tenth grade in the same fashion as the previous maps for
Kirkman and Brainerd High?
A That is correct.
R a M A R I ' a C a s t V B b ¥ 1 T i l A N O A s S O U A H S
( t R M f f (J b H O H T H A N I ) R H ' O R U H S
Rtf f - . r U N l . t M A R T I N O A l f H M B B I L L
Taylor - Direct 121
THE COURT: Exhibit 25.
(The map referred to above m u m arked
Exhibit No. 25 for identification
and received in evidence.)
q Docs this indicate that the students from all
over the city go to Chattanooga Uigh School?
A Yes, the dominant group comas from the Kivenuont-
North Chattanooga area but it'3 a scattering of practically
all over the whole city.
y in other words, there are a substantial number
of students that provide their own transportation from St.
Elmo all the way across town, all the way across the river,
up the hill to Chattanooga High School , is that correct?
A That's right.
Does it also indicate that a number of black
students living down near the Georgia line in the St. Elmo
area also provide their own transportation all the May across
town and to City High School north of the river?
a That's right,
g Sir?
A Yes. sir.
g Are there any black students coming from the
Last Chattanooga area to Chattanooga Uigh School?
A Yes, sir.
q Is it a fairly substantial number?
MR. WILLIAMS; If your Honor please, we could be
R i C M A R I ) A B S M I T H A N D A S S O i . I A Tfc£»
I h I . I I » S M O * ’ U N I ) f « f H O P T H I S
u f H »'» N u F M * n • f4t>Ai ■ l
Taylor - Direct 122
here all day. The iaap ape aka for itself.
HR. toITT: All right.
A Yea.
j! j
q All right. Now, we move to the Howard High
School map on your right. First, Mr. Taylor, do any students,
arc there any students that are provided transportation to
Chattanooga High School, to your knowledge?
jl j
A The students that live in the hi Vermont area
north annexed would have transportation and the students
over in the Mountain Creek, that area, might be a few, they
would have transportation.
q Why is this?
A It's in the annexed area and it was promised
tiie people in th*> annexed area there would be transportation,
the same services they had before they were annexed, and
they liad this service.
C who made this promise to the people in those
areas?
A That's the City Cocciaission. to the best of my
knowledge.
q All right. Mow, I direct your attention to the
Howard High School map, which will be the next exhibit.
THE COURT: exhibit 26.
(The map referred to above was marked
Exhibit No. 26 for identification and
received in evidence.)
R i c h a r d a C a s t > B S m i t h a n o A s»s o «_ a t e s
C t R » i l l > S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R t > f c W t N < t M A R T N O A L E H U B B L L L
Taylor - Direct 123
u And the white pin indicates the location of
Howard High School, is that correct?
a That is correct.
« j
Q Would this indicate that students, black students,
I
' voluntarily travel from the airport past Brainerd High School?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to this as leading.
TILL COURT: Sustain the objection.
|i
MR. WILLIAMS: Inadmissible testimony,
u Mr. Taylor, I call your attention to the black,1
to the blue pins in the area of the airport, what does this
indicate?
A It would indicate that— I don't see any blue pins
at the airport, but it would indicate, the blue pins indicate
that they are going to Howard, a black student.
Now, there's sortie blue pins that's outside the
city limits that are providing their own transportation to
Howard.
q Does this also mean that they are paying tuition
at Howard?
A That is correct.
U Do I have them all? We have one more.
Hr. Taylor, what was the racial composition of
Chattanooga High School in the first year of desegregation?
A Thirty-five black, 1225 white, total of 1260.
U What was it the next year?
»•* W A R D d ( A b f V B S M ' T H A N D A s S O c i A I t S
r p r n n . ' i H O R I A N J ) H p P O R T t M S
« . M * 'M. N« f N I J A l • 1 < ' j B BI l
Taylor - Direct 124
A Fifty-seven black. 1227 white, or 1284, and then
in 1966-69. 66 black. 1264 white. 1330.
Q 1969-70?
A
Q
Eighty-three black. 1359. or 1442.
1970-71?
A One hundred forty-one black, 1294, and 1435.
U how, Mr. Taylor, I believe the last map in the
laat exhibit is Riverside High School?
'j
THE COURT: Exhibit No. 27.
(The map referred to above was marked
Exhibit No. 27 for identification and
received in evidence.)
Was this map prepared in substantially the same
way as the other maps for the other three high schools?
A That is correct.
Q Or the four high schools?
A (witness moves head up and down.)
W This indicates that Riverside High School is
an all black high school.
A For the tenth grade, this is the tenth grade.
w All of these maps acre for the tenth grade, is
that correct?
A That is correct.
U Do we have this information for any other grades,
does the department have this information for any other
grades in the high schools other than the tenth grade?
R i c h a r d A C a s e v B ^ m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C F . H I I I l E I ) S H O R T H A N O R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R * N ' - L M A R M N D A t E M U B B f . U
Taylor - Direct 125
A We do not.
'w Do we have this information tor any other grades
than the seventh grade in the junior highs?
A Wo do not.il
Do we have this inroxmation available for any
:
other grades in elementary schools other than the second
:
I grade?
),
I! a We do not.
q To prepare this kind of information for the
ij
jj additional grades, would tills require a substantial amount
|i
j i of time?ii
A It would.
q Could you give us how much?
h According to the number of people, I guess, it
would take a week or ten days if you had sufficient people.
q All right, sir. Now, Mr. Taylor, you have served
under Dr. Carmichael whan he was the superintendent of
schools, did you not?
A That is correct.
U Did you serve under Dr. Martin whan he was
superintendent of schools?
A That's right.
Did you serve under Dr. Lawrie when he was
superintendent of schools?
A That's correct.
ft c A S M B *~*M I H A N I A S ^ C K . i A ' l >
| 111 j |i n O R H A N D • i ^ L- O H T L » S
• i f f K N i . f M A H ' i N O A i T H U H B E L L
Taylor - Direct 126
g Did you serve, are you serving under Dr. Henry
when he is superintendent of schools?
a That is correct.
i
q During this period of time did any superintendent j
ever give you any directions with reference to the rocognitiorj
of race as you attempted to discharge your responsibilities
with regard to zones?
A Hot to my knowledge,
g Did they tell you to ignore race?
A 1 never heard the word "race" mentioned,
g Did they ever indirectly indicate to you that—
indicate your recoranendations should reflect race?
A Ho.
g During this period of time did the Chattanooga
Board of Education ever give you any directive with reference
to race and your design of these school zones?
A HO.
g Did any Board member over unofficially direct
you to consider race in the design of these school zones?
A Ho.
g To your knowledge has any student ever been
effectively excluded from a Chattanooga school since 1961-62?
MR. WILLIAMS: That is objected to as calling
for an inadmissible conclusion, if your Honor please, that
is what H w Court is here to determine.
I
R . < H A R O a C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a i e s
CERT | E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T i N O A L F H U B B t l L
Taylor - Dxrect Cross 127
iiil
i!
THE COURT: 1 assume he is asking him as to his
personal knowledge, as to whether he knows of any incident
where a child was excluded. Is that your question?
MR. WITT: Excluded.
HR. WILLIAMS: He said effectively excluded from
school, that calls for a conclusion.
THE COURT: Sustain the objection to the word
"effectively", lie can testify as to his knowledge of whether
any child he knows of may have been excluded because of race
from one school or another.
y Hr. Taylor, based upon your own personal knowledge
has any student been excluded from attendance at any school
in the Chattanooga System because of race and race alone since
1966-07?
r> A
li.
Not to my knowledge.
HR. WITT: I have no further questions of this
witness.
if'
i'i
•_MI
1
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
y Mr. Taylor, would you please clarify your criteria
for determining the ideal sire of an elementary school?
A That was my personal judgment that approximately
600 pupils is the number that could be handled by one
principal, the teachers and the students most effectively
according to my knowledge.
R ( . . H A R D fk . A S E Y B b M l T H A N O A b S O C ' A f f c S
l I I IFC; b u O K ’ H A N D R E P O R T E R S
b f r i H E N t . F M A R ' I N O A I f. H I J B B E L L
Taylor - Cross 12a
g 1 think you base that not only on the economy
but also an educational factors relating to the size of the
3Chool?
A I'd say 100, I coupaxod 100. I felt like an
elementary that 100, if it got to 180 would be a better
arrangement where one teacher per grade, and this other
srze, according to what you are teaching in the other school,
if you have self-contained rooms the old method. 180 would
be good enough, you have got 30 pupils per teacher that are
teaching in the roam, door closed. If you had 2,000 of that
same arrangement you may prove, if you are carrying an
teaching and other things, then according to what you do—
g (Interposing) I believe the State Department
of education says that 180 is a minimum for a sixth grade
school, isn't it?
A I guess it is.
g For approval that the school shall have at least
one teacher per grade?
Yes.
g And doesn't the State of Tennessee Department
of education's criteria likewise say that an elementary
school to afford an adequate education should have not less
than 500?
A 1 do not know exactly whether they say that or
not.
F? I . A R O 1 . A S t v B S M I T H A N D A s S O C I A T f c S
». I N ' t f F t ) S H O R T H A N D H t P O P T l R S
IV r F I R F N U ’ M A R I I N O A I F H U B B t L L
Taylor Cross 129
i 'I
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1 4
1.4
1H
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•_MI
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.j But you agree with that generally?
A Generally speaking.
g I believe you indicated your idea would be 600
baaed on the factors you mentioned?
A 1 said approximately 600.
q Now. in your testiiaony about the criteria you
involved in establishing zones for assignment of children
to school a . you mentioned the proximity to the school as one
factor for consideration, is that correct?
a One to be considered, one that has been considered
in the Chattanooga Public Schools.
,j you mean by this the neighborhood school concept
in the sense of geographic proximity to the school?
A I guess geographic. "Neighborhood" has more
meaning to it. If you have an opportunity to present, to go
to the school closest to his home, we assign them that way
instead of going over here a long distance, is w h a t I am
trying to say.
q And you utilize that as a criteria in establishing
your zone?
A I was not involved in the establishment of the
single elementary zone, they were established by people that
ar . no longer with the Chattanooga Public Schools.
r. Didn't you utilize that as a criteria in
establishing your junior high and senior high, your junior
h K H A H D ft O a s i v B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
t E N M ' l E O S H O W I M A N O H F W O R T L R S
H F l I WFN< I M A H I l N D A L F H U B B I . U
Taylor Cross 130
zones?
A Junior high zones?
y Yes.
A It was based primarily on being co-terminus with |
the elementary but that would be used by starting off a now
I
system, where to zone, that I would use it personally.
iiII
y In the sense that you used it in establishing
your elementary zones, you made them feed into the junior
iill high zones, co-terminus boundaries, then you do use it, is
that correct?
a I would say it was used by the people who
established the elementary zones. I would say that to some
degree.
Q In adopting freedom of choice for high schools,
of course, you abandoned entirely that concept, didn't you?
A I guess that is true.
y You say you were not given the elementary school
zones?
a I was in the system but I wasn't in a position
to have any influence on what went on.
y What position were you in at that time?
A I was the coordinator of vocational and adult
education and I guess a year principal of Kirkman Technical
High School.
y I think you said that you took over, you became
\
ft C a s e y B t >m i n a n d A s s o c i a t e s
( i f ) ' I f D . . A N D R F P O H T F . P S
F M - R E N - r M A R 1 i N I I A L t - H U B B E I . L
Taylor - Cross 131
i
1H
i:t
is
in
■_*n
an assistant superintendent in June. 1962. and you wore
assistant superintendent for administration at that tins,
were you not?
A (witness naves head up and down.)
u And had the responsibility from that tine an in
that capacity until February. 1969?
A (Witness naves bead up and down.) )
0 Is that correct?
A Yes. sir.
t' So you say you had nothing whatsoever to do
with the establishment of the rones that are reflected in
Exhibit 1?
a Is that the elementary?
<w That's the elementary.
A That'a correct.
Q Did you work with those rones far the next
seven years?
A The elementary rones in '62-'63 in implementing
the eiei.entary zones %*s did use those, so we did work with
it.
-i MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court* I should
like to have placed on the board the naps depicting the
elementary and junior high and high school zones, if I may.
■h Defendant's Exhibits 4 to 13. inclusive, and 14 to 19,
inclusive.
R » i h a r d a C a s k » B *»m i t h a n d A s s o c i A i t s
C E R T ' I H D S H O R T H A N D K t P O R T E R S
R E f E R E N l f M A P T i N D A L E M D B B E C L
Taylor - Cross 132
I want the junior high and the el — antary. Is
that the junior high? Just the tap one is fine. Mo. I tell
you what, maybe I'd better have '62-'63 and an that one ii!
i • 65-166.
U Mow, Hr. Taylor, can you see ail ri<£it from
where you are seated, can you see those zones all right?
A I can see the big one now, this other one I can
see fairly plain.
Q All right. How, then 1 am holding an exhibit in
nty hand. Exhibit 2, which relates to the original junior
high acltool zones that you did establish, am I not correct?
A Over here (indicating)?
i t
11
it.
17
IS
If
_<(l
121
Q You established these and these were the original
junior hxgh zones, I am sorry.
A Yes.
q That's rxght. Now. then I will ash you if it
isn't true— well, let me do it a different way— on Exhibit 2,
which was the original junior high school zones in effect at
the time you began. Hardy Junior High School is reflected.
Hardy Junior High School, which was reflected among the
'white junior high schools of Exhibit 2, is designated as
No. 5 and it is colored pink. here, isn't it?
a 1 am lost on the colors but it's that top— not
up there.
u Hardy Junior High School on Exhibit 15 is No. 6,
R i c h a r d A C a s l y b b M i T H a n d A s s o n A i t s
( t R l i l k O S H O R T H A N D R F M O M f f P S
R f F t R t N C F M A R I - N O A l . K - U U B B l L L
Taylor - Cross 133
is it not?
A lAu-hmra.
Q Now. is there any difference between Hardy Junior
ji
High School zone before and after desegregation?
A Well, the top boundary is not the southern
boundary, would be the only place there would be any differ-
I ence.
g Wall, will you come and show the Court where
there is a difference in the southern boundary?
A I act not saying there is any difference,
g The southern boundary on the original one appears
to be one block below Windsor and the southern boundary on
exhibit IS appears to be one block below Windsor, so evidently
there is absolutely no difference, is there?
A There wouldn't be any difference when the change
is made in this one. The original single zone was some
different but they amended the single zone back to that, if
that's the southern boundary.
g Well, now, on Exhibit 15 you had amended the
southern zone.
A The original went down, what was approved, the
first one, the next year it was changed beck, changed back
to the one you had there, it looked like.
g But if there was a change it was a rather minimal
change, was it not?
R i c h a r d H C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o o a i e s
C E- R T i *- I F.D i H O H ' M A N U R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C C M A R T I N O A C E - H U B B E L L
Taylor - Cross 134
A Yes.
<J Well. wait a minute, I haven't got the original
Exhibit 14. That reflects your initial zoning, isn't it?
il A Yes.
ii ^
f.
All rxght.
||
j! A
li
That would be it.
1 u All right. So that the only change that you
Ij made from the x-ire-d© segregation zoning was that in the
present desegregation zoning the line ran just one block
below Windsor Street and you altered it just slightly, didn't
you?
A In that case to the white, the black was a
different arrangement.
C1 Sir?
A Yes, that's the case for comparing the white.
Q Yes.
A And single.
W But the point that I am making is what you did
in substance with regard to Hardy Junior High School was
that you took the wiiite zone lines and re-established them
as your new single zone lines, didn't you, in substance?
A In substance we really took the work from the
elementary but it turned out to be the same in substance.
<j Let*3 take another one, let's take the next one,
Braxnerd. Now, Brainerd on Exhibit 2, which was the original
H ' ( . > « A R b Ck L A b t V B S M I T H A N D A S S O C I A T E S
C t R T > ' fcO b H O h H A N D R T H O H T t H * '
« r r t « f . N u t M A P I ! N O A i_E H U B B E U
Taylor - Cross 135
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white junior high school zoning, is in green, and it is here
in the center with this hind of railroad train type of design. <
Now, will you compare that with Brainerd. which
is No. 2 on Exhibit 14, and tell his Honor whether that isn't
exactly the same zoning that you had adopted for Brainerd?
A I would say it is very close. I can't tell any
difference.
Q If there is any difference it is hard for you to
tell?
A That's very close.
g Maybe the major difference is that you have the
little Shepherd Hills thing that is in white on the original
zoning and you have got it in red on yours. What does that
mean, incidentally?
A I can tell you that white and rod, that is not
part of the city, it is an individual city of its own.
g Is it known as Shepherd Hills?
A Ridgeside or Shepherd Hills.
0 Ridgeside. Oh, I see. All right. Now, then
let's take the next one. No. 3, Bast Lake Junior High School
on Exhibit 2 and compare it with No. 4, East Lake Junior
High School on Exhibit 14, and that is the one down there.
No. 3, is in red here, if you can notice the difference there.
Would you say that you had exactly the same, well,
nearly almost exactly, with minor modification in the northwest
R i c h a r u A C a s e y B 5 m . t h a n o A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T i t ' L U S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T I N O A L E M U B B E L l
Taylor C r o M 136
A I would say that Is true.
w So then you adopted In elfoct the East Lake zone.
Now. let's go to the next one, the East Side,
No. 4 on Exhibit 2, and compare that with No. 5, is
!' East Side on Exhibit 14, and state whether or not it isn't
ji true that the zone which you adapted for East Side before
desegregation was substantially the sare as white zone
i!
Lor East Side originally?
A Yes, fairly close.
V‘ It's ajpproociuiately the saute, isn't it? If you
have any questron about it, I don't i&ind your coming down
to axarttine it. It is substantially the same, isn't it, Mr.
Taylor?
a Looks like the left aids is a little different.
Ci The left side up around the top northwest here
again there has been a minor change made here in the area
of this urban renewal area, well, the highway area.
A (Witness moves head up and dawn.)
<j But otherwise it is substantially the same?
a Substantially the same.
»
<u All right, sir. Now, taking No. 5, well, we
already covered No. 5. I skip to Dalewood, which was No. 1,
and that is the one, the junior high school north of Brainerd.
State whether or not your zones an Exhibit 14,
which is designated Brainord as No. 3, do not follow exactly
I* I H A R D Si A S » t « B b M i r n A N O A i b O t l A T t b
». C P T I I Ifcf) s » , O t - T A N O H P M O H 1 L N S
« f > f c H £ N r r M A P ’ N O A L * U U B 8 f : . L
Taylor - Cross 137
tlie same pattern, the same zone lines that you had on Exhibit
2, the original white junior high school zone?
he moment and go to ho. 7 on the original white junior high
school zones, North Chattanooga, which was, at this time was
this little space across the river. Compare that with ho. 10
on exhibit 14, which was the new single zone lines that you
drew for junior high schools and state whether or not it
doesn't follow exactly the same zone line.
A Yea, sir.
Q So that you adopted for desegregation, you
adopted the white zone lines for North Chattanooga, too,
didn't you, in junior high schools?
A Adopted the—
v (Interposing) The same ones that you had.
i\ North of the river, but part of the city north
of the river.
Ci Yes, sir. how, then, let's go to ho. 8, which
is over here by the airport, and which is the Elbert Long
Junior high School, and on Exhibit 2 the original junior
high school zone under the dual system and compare that with
bo. 8, we got the same number this time on Exhibit 14, which
was tiie first year of desegregation in junior high schools,
and tell his honor whether that isn't exactly or approximately
A 1 would say substantially the same again.
Yes, sir. Then going to— let's skip Lookout for
M c h a r d A C a s e y B S m i t h a n i j Assoc'arts
‘ • A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A P I N D A L I . - M U O B E L I .
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5
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the 8ai>£ zone.
«
A Approximately the same.
w All right. Now, then let's go hack to No. 7,
which is North Chattanooga— No. 6, which is Lookout on the
original zones and if you compare that with No. 9. which is
uookout on Exhibit 14. your new desegregated zones, you do
find a difference hut that difference is primarily on the
ea3t here, is it not?
A Yes.
U You split the original Lookout zone in two and
uiade a new narrow elongated Lookout zone and then what was
the other portion of it. that's No. 1, that's Alton Park,
isn't it, isn't this the Alton Park Junior High School zone?
A Yes, sir.
W State whether or not. Mr. Taylor, the population
of the newly created Lookout Junior High School zone is
primarily white, was primarily white or black?
A I'd say it was predominantly white.
<j And state whether or not, Mr. Taylor, the
population of the newly created Alton Park Junior High School
zone was priroarily white or black?
A It was black.
u So that the only instance thus far in which you
made any substantial change in the zone lines was to take a
nixed junior high school zone and create a predominantly
Taylor - Cross 138
M u h a n d ft C a s e y b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
< t M T I M L U i H O N I H A N I i R F I ' O R H R S
R E F I H I N I f M A H I N O A l . F H n B O t - l . l .
Taylor - Cross Ui)
white Lookout zone, a new predominantly white Lookout zone
and a new predominantly black Alton Park zone, wasn't it?
Dealing with the white, former white zones, the
former black zones, well, thus far let's confine it, insofar
as we have presently progressed the only substantial change
that has been noted has been this split up of a mixed zone
into the junior high school zone and into one on the west
that is predominantly white and the one on the east that is
predominantly black, that is true, isn't it?
.a The ones that you identified in there?
U Yes.
A Yes.
L Of course, children were assigned to schools
according to these zones, were they not?
A These zones here, yes.
q And they were required to attend the schools
witliin their zones, were they not. subject to your regular
transfer procedures?
A Yes.
v. Mow, then that leaves on the original zoning map
for white junior high schools an area which is in the general
area of the downtown of Chattanooga, isn't it?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
u Is it not?
i\ Y til*.
H ; ‘ M N O A C A S E / H A N O A S S O O A T h S
I R T l F i F O & H O H I I ' A N U K f P Q R U R 5
f > H ► HI N ( L M A H 1 N O A L t H u B B E l . l .
Taylor - Cross 140
U And that is designated as Zone Mo. 9 as an
optional zone. What that laeant under the old zoning was
that they could attend, if they lived in Zone 9, the students
could attend any of these other zones that they wanted to?
a That is ay interpretation, yes.
<j All right, sir. And was that zone at the time
that school desegregation began in junior high schools, that
is, • 65-'66, was this Zone 9 inhabited predominantly by white
or black students?
A 1 guess the majority would be black.
w Yes. So that if that zone had been adopted all
of these black students would have had a freedom of choice
to get into these other junior high schools, that is the
effect of the total option, is freedom of choice, isn't it?
A Yes.
g Now. then we note that you divided that yellow
area and you can see that yellow area was divided between
optional Zone B. which you designate an Exhibit 14 as
Glenwood, North Missionary Ridge Zone 11. which Is a newly
created Orchard Knob zone, Zone 12, which is a Riverside-
bust Fifth Street optional zone and roughly Zone 7, which
is the Howard zone, that is true, isn't it?
A Yes.
q And Zone 7 went into operation— Howard was an
all black school, wasn't it. Howard Junior High School?
R . i h a r d ft C a s t * B S m i t h a n o A s s o c , a r t s
C . k R T I I I H l i r i O P T - A N D H f R O R U B S
R E F E R E N C E M a m N D A I F M U B B F . L L
Taylor Cross 141
A The first year.
(j Well, hasn't it remained?
a Predominantly but it has had a white child or
two.
g Every now and then?
Every now and tnen.
g All right. At the time that zone, that these
new zones were carved out. was Riverside an all black zone
at that time?
A 1 would say it was.
g In *65-*66 had all of the whites moved out?
a Riverside. 7 through 12.
g Seven through 12?
A i don't know, there's same white students in
9,
that section all along, same predominantly—
g (Interposing) Predominantly black?
A I would say that, yes, sir.
g Would you also say that Orchard Knob was also
predominantly black?
A Yes.
g And would you likewise say that— well, now, this
optional zone here, this Glenwood-North Missionary Ridge,
that was not predominantly black, was it?
1 would say about half and half.
w it's about half and half?
H i c H A N l i A .V * , tri S m i t h A N i : A s s O< <a h j>
. » » ’ 1 I- P. 1.1 MiO K I A N D H t P O H i M I S
w»»» i M * H N l i A . f H i v B S H i .
j
‘ >
4
c
7
8
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10
1 I
I J
115
14
ir.
10
17
IS
111
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J.7
Taylor - Cross 142
A Yes.
Q what we have here then xn the dxspositxon ol
this foniter optional zone among white students, insofar as
white students were concerned under the old zoning, what we
have here is chopping that up into zones for black schools
and a single zone, optional zone, over here on the end for
a small area where the area was not predominantly black,
isn't it?
A 1 would say so.
V: /aid, incidentally. when this zone, when hone 9
was an optional zone as a white junior high school zone
under the dual sy stem there were— that was done because there
was not much need to establish zones in there when it was a
predominantly residential— black residential district, wasn't
it?
A I'd say that was a true statement.
Yes. So then would you likewise, and also under
your junior high school zoning, you established a system
whereby the persons, the students who resided in this
elongated peninsular-type area along Missionary Ridge would
have a complete option to go anywhere they wanted to in
junior high school, that is correct, isn't it?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
Q Is it, sir?
a Yeah.
R i c h a r d fit C a s e v B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O K T I A N D R » - A > O R : k » S
R E F E R E N C E M A R I N D A L t h U B B E L L
1
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Taylor - Cross 143
|
(j And Missionary Kickjo, state the character of the
j; residential district on Missionary Kidyo.
A I would say it was the upper income group.
What is the racial character of it?
A 1 would say it was Lostly white.
U Do you know of any blacks who live on Missionary
Ridge?
A Ua have some blacks going to Missionary Ridge,
a small number, five or six or eight, so there is some tJ a ttVs
living on Missionary Ridge, 1 don't know the number.
Q All right. Would you say that it would be a
very small minority of blacks or poor whites that would live
on Missionary Ridge
A 1 don't get much association with that group. I
would say that is true.
u All right, what was the reason behind the
establishing of an optional zone in Zone B here, what was
tiie reasoning behind that?
A Row, the upper part of the elongated part of
Missionary Ridge had formerly been in the white dual zones,
been zoned to Brainerd Junior High, and the parents made
application to the Board because it was closer to Dalewood,
when Dalewood was constructed, that was a dual school, made
an application to go to Dalewood and the Board saw fit to
m a k e it optional.
rt C a *.e v q S m i t h a n c A * s o « i a t e s
C E R T t r t F D S H O R T H A N D R F P O H T E R S
H F T F H F N ( . E M A I A i N O A l E M U A R E I. t.
Taylor - Cross 144
11
12
l.i
14
ir»
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17
18
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• >•>
U Dalowood is No. 3 and that is over hare* is it
not?
A That* s right.
0 Nov* then Hardy, No. 6, is right here, ian*t it?
a Yes. They could go to Hardy but the discussion
was they wanted to go to Dalewood, balewood had vacancies,
u Mr. Taylor, would you say that the students on
Missionary Ridge are at least three times as close to Hardy,
at least twice as close to Hardy as they are to Dalewood?
a By the map I would say that is true,
g So then the neighborhood school concept has not
been applied, of course, with regard to junior high schools
eitiier, has it?
A Basically it has.
(j Basically it has but in reference to these upper
income whites who live on Missionary Ridge it has not been
applied, is that true, they weren't zoned and required to
attend the school closest to then, were they?
A No. they were zoned to go to any school. They
could attend that one if they so desired.
tj When you trtahe the zoning absolutely free then
you abandon the neighborhood school concept as a policy of
the School System, don't you, in that you permit them to go
wherever they please, isn't that true, Mr. Taylor?
A In my interpretation of what you are saying is
R i c h a r d & C a s e y b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N O R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R ' N I »A I F M U B B F l l
Taylor - Cross 145
you abandon the zone concept oi being controlled to go to
a given school.
(j You do relate the neighborhood school concept to
zoning, do you not?
A Zoning. 1 relate to capacity to house the students
that would have a neighborhood— more than likely the neighbor
hood is involved. 1 don* t know the full neaping of the
neighborhood concept that you night know it.
<j But as you use it in zoning you are relating it
to a geographic concept?
A 1 guess that would be true.
Q All right, how. then I think that that concludes
tho white portion of Exhibit 2.
Mow. incidentally. did you just find Exhibit 2
or was it there all of the time?
a Mr. Holden was in possession and he had it when
1 asked him for it. and he had this material,
y But you did use it. you used it in drawing,
obviously in drawing your new zone lines, did you not?
A Oh. yes. it was an operational map at the time
uecause that's part of it.
y Ail right, sir.
A l didn't know where it was located because I am
not in zoning at this time.
q All right. Vxxii you tell us where the zone lines-
Rl'.. H A R D A C A b E V b *=M r H A N D A S b O t 1 A T l t >
i * r • i f o s m o h t m a n o m P O H T i H S
H t f F P fc N <. K M A H ) N l > A l F H U B B f c l u
Taylor - Cross 146
they soei-t to be drawn in pencil— may I approach the witness,
your Honor?
Could you tell us where the zone lines for the
black schools were under the dual system?
a (witness indicates.)
All right. You are now tracing lone 1. is that
correct, and Zone 1 crossed the Tennessee River, did it?
That is correct, isn't it? Zone 1 follows the Meandering*
ol the Tennessee River in its north side, in a northerly
directly, then takes off in a westvardly direction and then
soutbwestvardly and then follows the center line of the
Tennessee River?
A hack up the center line, that should go across
there.
g All right. And it crosses the Tennessee River
and then goes south and then north and then in a kind of an
odd-type shape and that was Riverside, is that right?
a That was Riverside.
<r
u Has Riverside always been a black school?
The Riverside School plant, the junior school,
black in that area, bast Fifth Street.
Q Now, zone—
a (Interposing) Brainerd Junior High had been
bast Fifth Street prior to that.
g Actually then was Last Fifth Street at the tine
R i c h a r d Ik C a s e y b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T H iEl> S H O R T H A N D R H ’ O R U R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T 1 N O A L E H U B W E I . L
Taylor - Cross 147
this zone went into effect, wasn't it?
ji a '65-*60. up to that date Grades 8 and 9 of that
year used this (indicating).
i
!l
10
I 1
y Oh. all right. Well, all right. Wei 1. wait a
minute. No. this map was in effect in '65- '66 and Grade 7.
A Were using it.
U Grade 7 were using that map?
A Grades 8 and 9 were using this map.
q Were using this map. All right. But actually
then Riverside was a black school at that time?
Yes.
U In * 65 and '66?
a Sixty-five and '66 they had a seventh grade over
there, they had a seventh grade.
y Now, then Zone 2 would be the Orchard Knob zone
and is that this little zone that is traced here, and Zone 3
then i3 Llie Howard zone and is that the zone which is
i*
in
20
111
•J.i
21
encoiupassed here?
A That's right, that is correct.
y And Zone 4 is the Alton Park zone, and is that
the zone down here an the southwest that 1 am tracing with
ray finger?
A That zone and the—
y (Interposing) They are ail black zones?
A Identical zones, so we have adopted a black zone
R i c h a r d 8 C a s e y b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C f R T l . E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R I N I J A U M U R B E l t.
Taylor - Cross 148
|
ii
split there*
0 This was the dual black zone, wasn't it* that
you have described on the back of Exhibit 2?
A Yes.
Q All right, sir. New, then finally Zone 5 is an
optional zone and that is just the rest of the city, isn't
it?
A Out here east of the Ridge?
Q Yes. The whole city east of Missionary Ridge.
Now, you may return to Exhibit 14 and see if we can't do a
little more comparing. We find then that the Riverside
zone, which on Exhibit 14 is Riverside and East Fifth
optional zones, is substantially different an Exhibit 14
than it was an the original zoning map for the junior high
schools for black children, isn't it, in that the b lack
children zone crossed the river and included North Chattanooga?
A That's right.
g So that has been modified on Exhibit 14 to create--
to adopt a white junior high school zone north of the river,
hasn't it?
A Not necessarily, it was created— the capacity of
the building across the river for students that lived over
there if they had been black they would have gone there and
blacks over there did go there.
v, Dut the point 1 am making, the Riverside zone
R k h a r d ft C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E N T . H I ' S H O M T i ' A N D ME P O R T E R S
H F M . M L D C f. M A I ' N D A L L H U B R E l i
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Taylor - Cross 149
as it pertained— the black. Riverside zone has been sub
stantially altered, hasn't it?
A That is correct.
U And altered in such a way as to adopt, as we
said, the white zoning system?
A North of the river.
<u Yes. North of the river where a very few
Negroes live, that is correct, isn't it?
A Some live there, I mean the Spears Avenue area.
<u Now, would you say that with regard to Orchard
Knob, which is No. 2 on the original zoning for black, that
that has been substantially re-adopted in Zone No. 11 of
Exhibit 14 which, incidentally, fell within the white
optional zoning where there was predominantly black but very
few white people, would you agree,with the except of this
minor modification of the Hardy zone and the minor modifica
tion of the zone immediately below it, the east side zone,
that tlie zone for Orchard Knob as it existed, the black
zone as it existed, has been substantially re-adopted in
your desegregation?
a The school building is still the center of the
zone.
q Yes. sir. As a matter of fact, that is a good
point. The schools were actually built more or less in the
center of racial concentrations, weren't they?
R i « h a r d fk C A S f c v B S m i t h a n d A s s o i >a t i s
l . I R ’ I I <1 IJ S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
H f c f I R f N i f M A R I 1 M lA I I i l u B U L L L
Taylor - Cross 150
A Oi people and the people were a race.
U In the center of residential areas and the people
were segregated resident!ally?
A Yes.
Q M l right, sir. Now. then except for the
abandonment of the black zoning in this white area across
the river that is North Chattanooga, would you or not agree
that the zoning for the heavily populated black areas of
Riverside and Hardy were approximately the same?
A Would you mind repeating your question, please,
sir?
Q Let me rephrase that, let's take it a little bit
at a time. In your new zoning you carved out a zone from
this optional area in your white junio high school zones,
which was, incidentally, a predominantly black residential
area, and you made it an optional Riverside-Last Fifth
Street zone, didn't you?
a Not optional. made it a junior high— junior high
people living in that area, it would be limited to that, and
the zone made smaller, but that's the zone, that is not
optional.
q Didn't a child living in 12— oh, I see— well,
how many junior high schools were in that area?
A Well, one junior high school that served that
area and the grades were split, at the present time 7 and 8
R < HAW. n 1. A SI y B Swi !H AM1 AbSOl IA TFS
• f# . I I' SHORT- A N( • HIPORTIRS
H M I K i . M U M A P ’ NDAl .fr . M U B B f r i t .
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Taylor-Cross 151
one place and 9 another one.
(j All right. So you carved out that zone and it
constitutes the remainder on the black zoning, it constitutes
the remainder of the Riverside zone, if you leave off the
predominantly white aroa north of the river and the mixed
area in the Hardy School area and the Hardy School zone.
A That's right.
g And then for Howard, and Howard is and has been
for several years in an area of almost constantly exclusive
nlack residents, hasn't it?
A Yes.
q You adopted for Howard Ho* 3 on your original
option map virtually the same zone that you had, didn't you,
isn't it virtually the same except that the old zone extended
a little farther and took in this white area, took in the
liast Side area that black children weren* t permitted to
attend anyway?
A The northern half of that zone, about half of it.
g Weil, if you look at it. if you look at it state
whether or not to the Court, state whether or not the old
Howard zone, which was No. 3 on your old zoning map. does
not conform roughly to the new Howard zone plus the new East
Side zone?
A That rs correct.
And so then in terms of the zoning of that
N l l . M A H U a C A M > B S M I T H A N D A b S O C l A T f . S
< I R * t ' ' » l> S t l O M ' i A N I ' M l P O R T l MS
Ml M Ml N< I M A H I N I I A I I H U B B l l I
Taylor - Cross 152
particular geographic area you adopted the same sons lines
that you had in a black* or substantially the same sane lines
that you had in a black residential area and made that the
zone lor Howard and substantially the saiao zone lines that
you had in a white residential area and wade that your zone
lines for East Side* didn't you?
A East Lake.
g n o w . then finally on this, not finally. Zone
No. 4 was Alton Park, black Zone No. 4 was Alton Park, and
that was just a reverse of white Zone No. 6, wasn't it?
A (Witness moves bead up and down. )
g Black Zone No. 4 likewise, as did original white
zone No. 6. included the white Lookout area and. incidentally,
isn't that an area of upper income whites also, the Lookout
Mountain area?
Lookout, but this is not Lookout Mountain.
This is not Lookout Mountain?
No.
But it is a predominantly white area?
I would say the people who reside in the Lookout
zone would be more white than black.
Yes. So then whether you look at it in tenus
of hi ac* Zone 4 or white Zone 6, what you did in each
instance was to split up a concentration of white people
and black people in a mixed residential area with the
R i c h a r d ft C A S f c v B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
r ( n t i i i r n s h o r t h a n d w t p o r t e r s
R I F L H I N< t M A H I N D A L F MI J BBf c I L
A
A
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A
Taylor - C r o M 153
resulting concentration of black children in the Alton Park
Junior high School and white children in the Lookout* that
is correct, isn't it?
a 1 would say that would be correct,
u As a matter of fact, in terms of pairing those
two schools would have constituted an excellent opportunity
to pair, wouldn't it?
A The capacity of the school building, one is
smaller than the other.
L Mow, would the capacity change as the result of
desegregation?
A Well, Lookout is desegregated half and half,
all is 50-50.
<u But Alton Park Isn't?
a But you got, in other words, according to how
you want to mix, what number you want, it's about halfway
mixed now.
A
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load any?
Is Alton Park halfway mixed?
Mot Alton Park with close to 900.
How many whites does Alton Park have?
1 believe it's seven this year.
Seven this year. This is the first year it has
a I believe it had seven last year.
llow many did it have when this plan—
N •< H A if. • h w A b l * 0 ; M : I H A N D A:- jbO<. • A f ¥ S
M . H 1 » |. I S H O P M* A N O H I P O H T f r H b
H I r I H I N I M A »• T N I 'A i . 1 . H U e t t E l L
Taylor croM 154
(Interposing) I don't believe it bad any.
Haw many years did it go without any?
Two or three.
Well, I ask. you whether your exhibit doesn't
A
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show that it went— oh, 1
A (Interposing) It went the first three.
0 All right, how. finally on the black sones,
/.one 5 is optionals and that is everything east of Missionary
Kidge, everything was optional, wasn't it?
A Yes.
U So what you did was to adopt the white school
zones entirely with regard to that, that is right, isn't it?
a I would say that is a true statement,
u And would you—
a (Interposing) I mean the result is true, as we
said, we went by the elementary school zone.
q Would you not agree that all of this area east
of the Ridge is predominantly white and residential in
character?
a Yes.
c. All right, sir. So that before we get to that,
let's take a look at just a few of the elementary schools.
THb COURT: If you are going to take another sub
suppose we take about a five-minute recess.
(Thereupon, a recess was had.)
R k .h a h p A C a s t * B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
( C R T I t ' C O S H O W T H A N T ! R t P O R T E R S
H H f . H I N M M A H I I N D A I C H U B S E L L
cj-
Taylor - Cross 155
MR. WILLIAMS: Shall I proceed, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
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DY MR. WILLIAMS:
g Mr. Taylor, if I way now transfer to the
elementary maps. Kxbibit 4, the one that you created or that
was created by the School System to begin desegregation in
1962-63, and again comparing that with Exhibit 1, ttaich is
the elementary school zones, the dual elementary school zones,
and with specific reference to the white elementary school
zones listed in exhibit 1. I will direct your attention to
the school zone for Avondale School that is shown on Exhibit 1
and ask you,if you will, to compare that with Zone 1 on
Exhibit 4, the new single zone, and state whether or not, with
the exception of a modification down here in the downtown
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area on the southwest in a very minor modification on the
north, that zone, was it not substantially in the same place?
a That is true, the one you are holding in your
hand goes a little further north but the basic heart of it is
about the same.
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Now. the modification on the south involved an
adjustment with the Clara Carpenter School and the East Fifth
Street School, didn't it, the Clara Carpenter School being
Zone 7?
A Yes.
and the East Fifth Street School being Zone 13 in
R . H A R P ft ( . A S I Y B b M • T H A N I , A S S O C I A T E S
i m T i i er> s h o r t a n d m i - p o r t e r s
N f . f k « T N ( e M A I M N I ' A l f c H U B B t l . L
the now zone?
Taylor - Cross 156
A Yes.
Q And those were both black schools, weren't they?
A
Q
East Fifth Street had sane whites.
In the old dual?
Old dual. yes.
w Not with noth black zones?
A Yes.
So then the modification that we mentioned in the
Avondale area pertained to its juxtaposition with those black
zones?
A 1 would say so. I am lost an the map.
w Well, all right, 1 don't want to lose you. Kay be
l better get a little closer so we can point it out.
A Yes. I agree in going all the way down here.
So under these white elementary zones, in other
words, what children who lived in the areas that are new the
East Filth Street and Clara Carpenter scones were zoned into
the a.vondale zone, weren't they, and when you established
your new single zones over hare they simply cut off this
area?
A That's right, we had Clara Carpenter a white zone.
then we cut over there a dual zone system, they had to go out
here to Avondale.
0 Well, that is what I was going to get to. Although
R i c h a r d A C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
f T B T I f l E D S H O R T H A N D R t P O R T L R S
R E > K R ( N< t M A R Y N D A l t H D B B C U
Taylor - Cross 157
you cut these white children oft and zoned theru xnto East
Fifth Street and Clara Carpenter Schools they did not actually
attend East Fifth Street and Clara Carpenter School in the
desegregation, did they?
A Yes. That zone, when the single zone was applied,
it applied to them also.
U Wasn't there a period when the white children,
when about 200 white children were bused out of the Clara
Carpenter area?
A Yes, when Clara Carpenter was a white school, I
can't give you the date when it was closed, the remaining
whites were bused out to Avondale, wh ich was white than, and
Glenwood, which was white then, so that group dean there was
bused out that far.
q All right. Let's see where Glenwood is.
MR. WITTs Mo. 17. May it please the Court, I
don't object to this. I do object because it's repetitious
and this is covered in detail in the hearing in May of 1965.
MR. WILLIAMS* We weren't going into the stoning
question then, if your honor please.
THE COURTS Well, proceed.
u So Clara Carpenter, don't you remember the year
that that was closed?
A Mo. I can't recall.
Ci For white children?
• ‘A N D & - A S f c V B b ' - l i T H A N A S S O < A •
I H ' M » S h O R I I ANI > ' ‘ i *OM T I U S
!* * M A I | H l j D B F l I
Taylor Croi 158
A I can't.
U You can establish that for us. can't you?
A oh, yea, we've got a record of it.
q All right. In that year the regaining white
children who lived in that area that had been a part of the
Avondale zone when that school was closed down as a white
school, they were bused into the Glenwood School and into
the A v o n d a l e School, which were at that time both white?
A Yes, the dual zone system, they went to a white
school zone.
g Bow, then by 1962-63 virtually all whites had
removed themselves from this area, hadn't they?
A I would say a majority of them had because they
closed the school.
g If you left the zone lines as they were, in
other words, if you had left thxs zone line for Avondale
school exactly as it was when it was zoned for white children
you would have, in effect, zoned into Avondale School all
these black children down here, wouldn't you?
A With the dual students,
u In the single school zone?
A Yes.
g All right. Bow, then let's take the second one,
H. L. Barger, which is Bo. 2, and which is in the western
lbchibit 1 under the old white school zones, and let
R . H A N D ft A S E V 6 S M I T H A N D A s s O < * T E S
( H i l l 11 L> S H O R T H A N D Ml P O R T f R S
H E F C R t N ' t M A W I N I J A i l 1 ' i . B B H '
area on
Taylor - Cross 159
us compare it, please, with Mo. 2 on exhibit 4, is the
| new single elementary zones, and 1 will ask you to state to
I
j! the Court whether or not they don't both conform to exactly
the same zone line?
A Very close, yes.
g They are exactly the same, aren't they? You wish
to ccx.>e down and examine then?
A No. I would say they are very close,
g All right, sir. Now. I will ask you again to
look at Zone 3 on the elementary school zone, which is the
same as Zone 4, and which is the G. K. Brown School.
Now, Zone 3 on the white elementary map, dual
Luap, contained all of this area north of the river, didn't it-
no, it didn't, it contained only the green area?
A We had two schools over there,
g You had the Noritial Park?
A Normal Park and G. Russell Brown, two zones north
of the river.
g hook at Zone 3 on the white elementary dual xaap
and Zone 3 and 30 an the new single zone map and state
whether or not they are approximately the same?
A Approximately the same, yes.
g And Zone 30 on the new dual map is this Spears—
just happens to be this Spears School, isn't it, which was
a segregated black school, easn't it?
fV I U H ' 1 A V B I M A N I < A S S O r IA TR.S
• » < * * ' ! I » .» 'j M O M I H A N O H H ' O H T m s
Wfcl i. *»» N - I M A I M . V . A . » M U B B E i . L
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Taylor - Cross 160
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A Yes.
w1 And so Nhat we have here in the case of white
elementary dual Zone 3 is that it was adopted, it was split
up between the old black school as Zone 30 and its original
composition with the zone lines of the same being co-terminus,
that is correct, isn't it?
A Yes.
w And I think souewhere along here in your direct
examination you mentioned that Spears then was subsequently,
being an inadequate school, phased out and closed and combined
with Brown so that as of now the zone lines of Brawn under
>
the old white zones and the zone lines of Brown the
single zones are exactly the same, aren't they?
A Almost the same.
Q Yes. Well, substantially the same?
A Substantially the same.
Q All right. Now. let's take the next school.
Cedar Hill, which on Exhibit 4 xs the Scale No. 5 and is
located in the extreme— in the southeastern portion of the
city. Look at the old Cedar llxll, whxch is yellow Zone No. 4,
and the new Cedar Hill, and tell his Honor whether they aren't
exactly the same.
a They look alike.
Q So you adopted the white school zone for that
zone, didn't you. that is true, isn't it?
R | ( H A R D (fc l i E V B S M I 1H A N O A S b O C I A I t S
I f c R T i M f c D S H O R T * A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F f c R I N t M A R T N !) A t f ! I
Taylor Croon 163
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MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I aw sorry.
You do ooncede that the zone lines ore the mono?
Yes.
0 Now, let's go to 5, which is the Clifton Hills
school, that is Mo. 8 on the new zoning map. Could you help
n*e there? What part is that located in? More it is* Zone
Mo. 5 •
Will you agree that the Clifton Hills School sane
as originally constituted under the old white dual senes is
substantially the same as the new single Clifton Hills Zone
Mo. 8, with the exception of that adjustment in the northwest
that we had in respect to the junior high applicable to this
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area?
A Yes.
u All right, sir. And then let's take the next
one, bast Chattanooga, which is Mo. 6, and is this little
projection up here.
Mow, I will ask you to state whether or not,
except for minor adjustments along the southern border. East
Chattanooga, which is Mo. b on the original map. is sub
stantially the same as East Chattanooga Mo. 11 an the new
map?
a Yes.
g All right, sir. Mo. 7 is East Lake. East Lake
is down in this vicinity, it is green here on the original
R l ‘ AFrL> & C * i » E < b S m I » H A N D A S S O C I A T E S
< t H? 11 • *- II b i ' O R T H » N O Wf » * O H T t MS
EFtHir.it M A R I N U A l t m u b b h . L
Taylor - Cross 161
A we adopted the—
(interposing) The original white elementary
school zone Xines for that school« that ia true* i w * t it?
You aro as k i n g your hoed* that's the reason I keep liking
you*
well. wo adopted the zone of the people who cane
to that scliool.
el Well* all right.
A That would be white.
u All right, air. You say you adopted the zones
of the people who attended that school and they were tdrite*
is that right* so you made no attempt to change those sane
lines?
A They were operating at a capacity there*
( ; SI- Hut you no atteopt to adjust those school
lines with the zone lines of any other school to change the
racial composition of that school?
A I—
MR. WILLIAMS: (interposing) I object to the
witness being coached* if your Honor pleaae* I heard the
remarks from the sideline*
A
THE COURT: Sustained.
1 did not establish the elementary school« X
didn't have any pert in establishing it.
k Of course* you did have a part in the junior high
W ’« h a n k A A-jfcv □ S m i t h a n »> A s s o c i*rts
r T R T I F I F O S H O H » H A N U N k r O R T f R S
K l f f c H t N i l M A N ! N I > A L F H U B B L I L
Taylor - Croce 162
zones, didn't you?
A I had a part, that is right.
<u You did not adjust those to try to achieve any
racial integration, did you, you just admitted you—
A (Interposing) I tried to do the best 1 could to
have the pupils— that have capacity of the buildings,
irregardless of race.
u You adopted the same lines that you had, didn't
you, in most instances?
MR* WITT: Your donor, we can shorten this, we
will stipulate that at no time has any decision been made
with regard to these zones for the purpose of maximizing
desegregation.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, we can
shorten it considerably if he will stipulate that when they
adopted the now single zones they did not change the old
zone lines out simply re—adopted in most instances the zone
lines that had been utilized in the white schools and In the
blacJc. schools respectively and in instances where the schools
were too close together to do that then they drew a line
down tiiu middle and assigned the black children to the black
schools and the white children to the white schools. If you
stipulate that, then I don't need to go any further.
MR. WITT: Mr. Williams, we feel under a compulsion
to only stipulate to things that arc facts.
R i c h a n o fir C a s e v t3 S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C l N T I f t E O b H O B I H A N O R I P O B T f R b
N H l . B I N< E M A H ' N O A l l H i / H B t U
Taylor - Cross 164
white elementary zoning map, it is No. 14, No. 14 on the new
zoning map.
itate or not it isn't exactly or nearly
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exactly the sairn.
A Near exactly.
q All right, sir. No. 8, Eaatdale, East-dale is
No. 12 on this?
A Up above that red district.
Sir?
A Up above the—
H R . WITT: (Interposing) Red splotch.
u Oh, I see, the rather odd-shaped zone there.
State whether or not it isn't substantially the same No. 8
on the old school zone and 12 on the new, just above the
Shepherd llills-Ridgedale.
A Approximately the same.
y Approximately the same. All right. Garber,
No. 9, can you tell me where that is?
A Yes, sir, south of that north piece up there,
right there.
y Garber, No. 9, No. 16?
A They are the same,
y Exactly the same?
a Yes.
y All right, sir. No. 10, Glenwood, and Glenwoc 1
R « H A R D A f As l - v B S m - T H A N D A S S O C I A T t S
C E R T i n p O 5 H G R T • * A N P R E P O R T E R S
R E f L R E N C t M A P I N l ) * t t H U B f l t l - L
Taylor - Cross 165
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isn't it?
Now, Glenwood is on the old map a combination of
No. 17, Glenwood, No. 26, Orchard Knob on the new map, isn't
it? If you look, at the Glenwood zone on the old map doesn't
it conform approximately to Zones 17 and 26 an the new map?
A I would say so. It's hard to tell that outline
from here but it looks like it is.
u Of course, Orchard Knob is a black residential
area so there would have been no fear of haviny black children
in this large Glenwood area under the old white elusoentary
zoning, would there?
a 1 don't know about the fear part of it but the
two zone maps covered the whole city, 1 mean the dual zones,
the black map covered the whole city, the other covered the
whole city, it had to be covered whether anybody lived there
or not.
is No. 17 on the new one, that is down in this area somewhere,
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<u But under the new zoning an area which had been
zoned tor Glenwood. namely Zone No. 9, was cut along racial
lines, wasn't it?
o Not necessarily along racial lines. It was
because of the capacity of the two plants there and the
students were filled to capacity.
had there ever been any substantial number of
white children in Orchard Knob?
R i c h a r d ft C a s i -v B S m .t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C t R h M K ) S H O R T H A N D H I P O R U . R S
R E F F W I N f . f M A R ' N D A I E M u B B U L
Taylor - Cross 166
A No, Orel Lard Knob Elementary, to my knowledge
tills year ie the first year.
g All right. So than this area, which had been
the Gienwood rone, was cut along racial lines when you
created Zune 26, wasn’t it?
A Gienwood had black and white, it might have been
cut clown through the racial lines, all blacks,
g. II it been cut through an area where there
were both black and white children, wouxdn’t you suppose you
would have had some white children in Orchard Knob?
A Yes.
f All right. Hemlock, Hemlock, No. 11 on the
original ioap is Ho. 18 on this map and can you tell sue what
part of town that is located in?
A Here it is (indicating).
g Hot.lock, all right. Hemlock was Ho. 11 on the
old zone and Hemlock is in an area or was in an area under
tlie old white zoning which stretched out into the black
neighborhood, wasn't it?
A I'd have to see the wap up close.
»
g In other words, the Hemlock zone stretching
through here, into the heart of town?
Ti a It covered the rest of it.
i g Would have covered a large number of black popple,
would it not7
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w i h a r o ft C a s c v b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T i M E O S H O R T H A N D Rf- P O R T E R S
R E J E R t N £ M A ' M l N O A L K H U B B t L L
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Taylor - C r o M 167
A It would cover the rest of it or any children
that lived there.
g But as it was actually cut up it was made, this
small portion of it was cut, was made Hemlock., and then it
was made into a zone for Davenport, in what is Do. 21. and
Howard, in No. 6?
A Chattanooga Avenue.
u Chattanooga Avenue. Those are all predominantly
black schools, aren't they?
A That's right.
g They were existing there at the time, weren't
they?
A Yes.
g The reason you could have this big area for
Hemlock at this time was that these hlack children aver in
here were attending the black schools and the white children,
predominantly in the east here, were attending the white
Hemlock School?
A The zones there are predominantly black school s
that were adopted in that area.
g Well, is Hemlock a predominantly black school?
A No, it lias a mixture but Hemlock covered at this
time 3 through 6, Hemlock was classified as a white school,
g In '62-'63 Hemlock had no black children and 324
whites, didn't it, that's true, isn't it, sir?
R , ( . h A R D a C a s e y b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t l s
« I H l i H L U S H O W T »• A N O H I P O H t l R S 1
H I > I H I N ' r M A N I N l A L I M U B B k '■ I.
Taylor - Cross 168
A If that's what you read, that*s true.
0 As of today it has only 66 black children and
white. so that titis school— oh. incidentally, are these
circles located in the a p p r o x i m a t e place where the school is
located on the map?
A Close to it. yes.
y So we see that although under your dual zoning
the Hemlock zone extended across into the black neighborhood,
the schools were actually constructed around racial concen
tration s. weren't they, residential concentrations, with the
lieiiilock School being here where the Figure 18. that is correct
isn't it?
A Yes.
g And the—
A (Interposing) The school was originally con
structed where some people lived in that area,
y The Davenport School, the Davenport, the Howard
and Chattanooga Avenue Schools, likewise being constructed
in the center of black residential concentrations?
A They were located at this time in that, at same
other times they were in a white area.
y Of course, you were requiring children to go to
those schools, weren't you, they were assigned to those
schools according to zones and were required to attend them?
A YwS.
r« H AM. . dr A -t V B b M M I I A N I A S M " ' A I t S
• tRTH'. t O S M O R I t i A N d HI POR T f . H S
HfJ FMI N. K M A H » N D A L I H l . B B M L
Taylor - Cross 169
<j And they were built there for their attendance.
weren't they?
A For tiie children that lived in the neighborhood
!;
at the tine.
j!
<j Yes. sir. And the children who lived in the
j
neighborhood were racially segregated at this tine?
a Yes, sir. before *62-*63.
U If the School Board had desired it could have
located the schools in areas other than the center of these
|! racial concentrations, couldn't it. if it had desired to do
so?
A If it could have known in the future like
Davenport. I don't know when it was built, but it was formerly
in my tire, it was in an all white neighborhood, so it has
changed neighborhoods, it takes same pretty good soning into
tile future.j! '
y it was built in the center of all white neighbor
hood. which then bee ante an ail black neighborhood?
A And it's changed over to all black.
All right. Did the School Board attempt by any
change o£ Its zone lines or any change in its construction
policy to do anything about that that you knew about?
A Not to my knowledge, people changing, moving out
and moving in.
u Ail right. Now. let's take the next one. Highland
W l ( H A N D a < A ' . I V IJ —• M ' I I I A N D A * » S O « I A I L S
| I D M M* S H O I ' 1 i > A N I < M f P O H H . U h
I K F f I M N ' i M A R I N D A U M U B B t l I.
Taylor - Cross 170
Park, Wo. 12. which is Wo. 20 on the map. Can you locate
that quickly for me, sir, is that right in here?
A Yes, that's it.
^ That is just ahove lieutlock and that is exactly
tlie saute zone, isn't it?
„ Looks like the same.
v And that's a predominantly white zone, isn't it?
A Yes.
(j so you did not, you did not cut up any zones
that were predominantly white, did you, you didn't modify
any zones that were predominantly white, did you?
A well, Warlock was a big old zone that was cut up.
H hut it had a lot of black people in it, though?
A But reverse of the map would be a reverse
of the other?
(j Sir?
t\ a reverse of that would be reversed the other
way.
w yes. sir. but I am saying is there no black
people, very few black people living in the area of the
Highland Park zone?
A That's right, predominantly white people in that
area.
y Can you name any zone that consisted of an
exclusive or near exclusive white residential district where
R . t i A H O ft * I B M : T H * N I ' A S S O ' A M
j. | , , , , s e t ' l l ! i A NI Ml P O P I I Mb
, | I M u H H l i i
Taylor - Cross 171
tiie zone lines were substantially modified in drawing the
new single zone lines?
A The elementary schools, as I said, 1 didn't work
with them, 1 was principal of a senior high school that was
an opon zone, I didn't know the zone lines and I am not really
familiar with the maps, so 1 cannot answer that truthfully.
Q Well, you did have something to do with the
junior high schools. Can you name any junior high school
II that is in an exclusively white residentxal area where theji t
zone lines were substantially modified in creating new single
zones?
i A 1 guess no, sir.
0 All right, how, then let's take No. 13, the
Elbert S. Long, and I believe that is over here, that is
No. 22 on Exhibit 4, tlie new single zone. State whether or
not isn't just a copy again?
A Looks like.
Q No. 13 just a copy of No. 22?
A Looks like it.
u And let's take No. 14, Missionary Ridge, uppermost
district. State whether or not it is not exactly the same.
A Looks like it.
v No. 23 an Exhibit 4 and No. 13, No. 14 on
Exhibit 1, No. 15, Normal Park, which is No. 24 on the
Exhibit 4, state whether or not that is not— that doesn't
R n H A I T I Hr B S M I T H » N I ' A s S O C ^ ’ l b
l U ' : || . H l ) M > A ' l l ) III Mb
II I I I • N < I M A • I I N I » A I I M i l l ! B i t I
Taylor - Cross 172
almost exactly conform. No. 15 on Exhibit 1 to No. 24 on
Exhibit 47
A Yes.
All right, sir. Now, let's take No. 16, which
is No. 16 on Exhibit 1, which is in the center of town, and
which is the Oak Grove, and No. 25, No. 25 an the new map.
and isn't it exactly the same, this little square here with
the little egg on it on the right?
A books similar, looks exactly.
0 Yes. And No. 17, Ridgedale, will you tell me wher^
that is, sir? Oh, 1 see. No. 17, Ridgedale. that is right in
here, isn't it. No. 27 it should be. that's exactly the same
on botli maps or substantially the same, there is a little
modification right down in here?
A It covered Fort Cheatham for tho white area, it
included Fort Cheatham.
0 It included Fort Cheatham. Is Fort Cheatham a
black school?
A It was a black school.
Q So when you made your new single zone line you
then created another black school, didn't you? Well, at
least you retained a black school then, isn't that correct?
A The Fort Cheatham remained until the freeway came
through.
y Did you make any adjustments of Fort Cheatham
H ' l H A h i ; ftk v A ta l • b :>M T H A N D A S b O C I A I l S
M y T • I (■ ’ SI • ) W I H A N r > > v » P O H ! I R S
K M I Ml N I M A H ' i f|i i * | ► H i j H B t l I
Taylor - Cross 173
zone lines to try to take in saute more of these white childrei
in this adjacent zone. Zone 27?
A hot to iny knowledge.
0 Is Oak Grove a white school zone, too?
A It was formerly an all white school*
(j Did you make any adjustments in North Chattanooga
lines to try to change its racial complexion with souie
students in this Oak Grove area that was contiguous, that
was not done, was it?
A Not to ix ty knowledge.
y All rxght, sir. Now. then 18, St. Elmo, vtfiich
on the nap is No. 13, can you locate this for me, sir?
A That's way over in the southwest comer.
q southwest. No. 31. No. 18 on tire original map
and here again we left the western white portion of it as is
and we cut a zone line through and divide the hlacks. didn't
we?
A Divided down that ridge.
g out of the old white Zone 18 we made the western
portion composed of whites, new Zone 31 for St. Elmo, and
then we made tire rest of it Zone 10 hlack, Donaldson, Zone 3
for black. Bell and Zone 33 for hlack. Trotter, and when I
3ay "black" that is referring to the complexion of the
students and faculty in the schools, we did that, didn't we?
A Yes.
H M k H i . rt • a -̂ i • b S m m h a n i A > > 0 ' a '» .
r f j, ? • I i ’ , . n O B M , * N r W» f O H 1'fcRb
H E f » •<» N i « M A H ' ' N I l A i I H ' i B B H I
Taylor - Cross 174
U Yes. Now. then No. 19 is Sunny side. Aixl i\\M is
on the Uap No. 32 in here below Ridgedale, and don* t we have
ijI exactly the same pattern in pupils here that we have forI
Sunnyside on your new zone?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
q And then Woodmore. Woodmore is a terribly
interesting school. That is a new school, isn't it?
a It was annexed fraui the county seme years ago.
|i
U Is that in an area of an upper class white area
or middle class white area?
ij A I'd say it is middle class, they might think theyI
arc upper class.
jj <j I see. You have effectively, the School System
has effectively excluded blacks from that school, though,
haven't they?
{|
A Not to my knowledge.
j| y Weil, let's see. After saute six years, seven
years of desegregation you still have only 22 out of 473,
J is that correct?
A If they move in that zone or that district they
can go to school there.II|l y Yes. But as a practical matter, beginning with
I 1962-63 that school had no blacks at all for one, two, three,
four, six years, no blacks at all?
A Some moving in now.
p , . H A , J, a A ’ ., H S M I " * N l A S S O ' A I
| ft I . , m A N I j h i 11 M S
l ( | ! i |. ! ) M A H ’ N I • A l I M > I U B k. I » .
i|
g Same beginning to move in now?
A Yes.
g All right, sir. Well, let's see where it is on
tiie map, what area is this in, please?
A It's (indicating).
g I see it. it's north of Ridgedale. isn't it
A Yes. |
g And it's No. 34, No. 34 on Exhibit 4?
a Yes.
g Doesn't it adopt exactly the same pattern that
you had in your dual white school zones? it's pink, here,
right here, doesn't it have that sane—
A (interposing) X would say so.
g Katiier odd design chore?
A Yes.
g All right, sir. Now, I hesitate to take the
Court's time in going over all these black schools since it
has been virtually established that what has been accomplished
here, would you agree. Mr. Taylor, that substantially the
same thing is true in reference to the black schools that we
established on your cross exaiaination with regard to junior
high schools?
A 1 would say so.
g Yes. In other words, what i am saying is that
where the white school zones, as wc have shown, were adopted,
< A H ( , & A S L • b S M . I M A N I • A S l O l ' A * I A
( , r« • | i > » .<» ! . | I A N f - A I ' O P T f - »<•
Taylor - Cross 175
U C ' N ' Bbt-
Taylor - Cross 176
where possible, where there was an area of hlack schools.
If
where a black school was located, then a new attendance
I J1district for that black school was carved out of the old
white attendance district?
A 1 wouldn't say it exactly that way. where the
I
school building is located they were each made attendance
zones and the people living near attended and they night be
black, they night be white.
;
C bet me just see if 1 can illustrate just mamentarijLy
if here. We have hero the Bell School, which is located down
j
liere in the heart of town?
jjj A Yea.
|
u The southern portion?
A Yes.
b We still have the Bell School, which is located
down here in the heart of town, and it's exactly the sane
!
district, isn't it?
A That's right.
| Q And we have Calvin Donaldson down here, which
is No. 4 in Exhibit 1, and No. 10 on Exhibit 4, and it's
still exactly the same district, isn't that true?
A Yes.
b And we have down here on the old map Zone 13
for frank H. Trotter School, which is exactly the same as
Zone 33 on Exhibit, isn't xt?
R i ' <ARI . Ft « ! ) ( Y B ’ H A N I - A S S 0 « A M S
. I W ' • i I ' ' ■ m i H l i A M ;
,<F'I F M N ' » M A k l N» Ai I H i / H B I . i
Taylor - Cross 177
*' TUat'a conroct.
*- Out now on the new white zones that we have
adopted in moat other instances* that was the zone of the
St. Llmo School, wasn't it. the whole thing. Lookout. Bell.
Donaldson and Trotter, they were all nnrn».ip^pnmi within white
former dual zone St. llmo, were they not?
■■
A Yea.
!i
Q So ian* t it true that what we have done in cases,
j!
what the School Board did in cases where it did not adopt the
rt ;
old school zone of the white schools substantially as is, it
simply adopted the black school zone within their areas of
|
racial concentration in those white school zones and cut off
j!
tiie remainder of it according to its population around the
white school, the existing white school? You get what l
,
f mean?
A 1 think 1 understand what you are saying but if
ll
two schools were serving one zone, one is called white, one
called black, then divided up into two zones, that is, two
plants there, two zones, got to be two zones made out of two
buildings covering the same zone.
u And usually in that case where it was on a zone
which had more black persons in it, more black persons con
centrated in it, there would be two or throe hi ̂r»k schools
̂ located within one white zone, as was the case in this St.
I lilmo. isn't that correct?
ft a . H S M ’ H a N o A b S O t M f S
IH' f . ■ 'I'll | »N|' * M O H I l- W i
I f I I Mf N' f M M l I N * ■ A ; f H I . H R t , «
Taylor - Cross 178
i Weil, vm> Usd three black and one whito, wa would
|
have had four zones* if each building is used as an attendance
center and make a zone* tUat would be the result* and the
li *people nearest those, whatever race they were, be
if ■
going.
•J But in desegregating in that section what you did
was adopt the black school zone* as in the case of
and Doll and the other school there, Trotter, and then leave
|!
the remainder of the white zone as is, that is correct, isn't
|i, a That ia saying it one way. What 1 am saying, you
had four school buildings and you adopted a zone as close to
I
that building as possible and the people that lived in that
zone went to that school, same were white, some were black
I and some maybe were mixed.
‘ : :
Q All right. But the result of that, in view of
II
I! tills policy that you had mentioned of building the schools
in the center of racial concentrations, was the new single
I f ■
zones which were drawn in cases like that tended to create
[:
and/or continue segregated school attendance, didn't it?
a In a new housing project or something which is
one race it would do that.
w well, let's just take, if the Court will permit
! to take enough time just to illustrate this one point, let's
i: t ft
I; take that particular school, St. Elmo, St. Elmo, let's look
ili!
♦ H A UI 1 ft * •» * B ‘-•4 T M A N i A S N O < . A > » S
•n r * u • «tw
T ylor -- Cross 179
on Paye 3. 3 a of 3 to adopt adversary counsel'* method of
expression. St. Elmo in 1962-63 had only six blacks and 336
white in it. that is correct?
A Yes. sir.
Q And yet it was one of the 16 schools that was
designated for desegregation the first year, wasn't it?
j
a Yes.
q Now. then the School Board didn't falsify any
thing, did they?
A I don't know of any falsifying.
y Would you assume that the School Board we.it ahead
and assigned the children to the schools where they ware
supposed to go within their zone?
A Yes.
y Yes, sir* So that then in 1962—63 the zone that
was in effect for St. Elmo, being one of the 16 schools then
being desegregated, was zoned 31 on Exhibit 4, wasn't, it*
that was zone that was in effect for St. Elmo, isn't it?
(witness moves head up and down.)
u And not Zone 18 on Exhibit 1?
A Eighteen covered.
g Eighteen covered these black schools districts,
too?
A No.
y That is correct?
»y . A W ! ' » S ( B 4 '•* »•< A N ! A S S O ' ! A I » ’>
I W ' I ■ ! . A N< I « »•..»*?» •>*.
• I l l H H i
Taylor - Cross 180
A Yus.
u All right, air. Lot's go one atop further and
look on Pago lb of 3, lb of 3 on this exhibit end I have
forgotten the exhibit number.
THE COURT: Exhibit Ho. 3.
<j Exhibit 3. Thank you, air. And let us look— no.
I aiu sorry, 1 have got the wrong Page la of 3, and let* a take
the bell, let's take the Bell School, which was zoned Zone 3
of the newly created zones and we don't have to find out
whether it was one of the original 16 or whether it went
into effect in '63- *64 because in both casea it had no whites
in it, did it?
A That* s right.
0 How, then Zone 10, Donaldson, let's stay on that
same page and transfer to Donaldson and here again we don't
have to find out whether it was then an original 16 because
it had no whites either the first or second year, did it?
A That's right.
All right, sir. bet's take Zone 33, Trotter,
and look on Page la of 3 and here again no whites either in
'62-'63 or '63-'64?
a Right.
U How. then do you not then have to conclude that
unless the School Board wrongfully transferred some white
people, which we don't assume that it did, that the white
U I ' A l i l ft A "-if H S v ' M A N t A S S O t A l l ^
* u l t ' i i P M R i
P M I >11 I ( M A». r . A ; | hhm i
Taylor - Cross
4 181
people were living over on this side, over on the vest side
ot tAXie 18 of wnat originally w&a oufXAAl viute 'lone 18?
A On t V west aide and attending that school over
there.
Yes, sir. And don't than w b also have to conclude
that in establishing the now lone 31 that the School Board
followed racial lines in recreating the new Zone 31, at least
hy virtue of its establishment of the old black zones, dilcb
we have mentioned as Zones 3, 10 and 33, don't you have to
conclude that?
A Continued the schools that were there and their
pupils, black schools, you call them.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, I would
appreciate it if we could void the coaching from the side
lines. I hoar it all the way over here.
THL COURT* Yes. keep any remarks inaudible.
,j You have to conclude at least that the drawing
of those zone lines did not contritute to the integration of
those four schools?
A yes, I admit or state the resulting four schools
there was that they wore—
y (Interposing) All black.?
A All black and one that was predominantly white.
u And nearly all white since they had only six
black children?
H » H A W ! , a \ > tJ SM. I M AN« > A . S O I O l s
< i ft : < . ( I > S H o m N l . Ml r O R T t R h
MAH » r j l » A . » H ' J B B K l
Taylor - Cross lb 2
a I agree with that.
{j Of course* you are aware that there are other
instances of that, are you not?
a Yes. that Is a similar case of the whole thing.
My statement was that those pupils were attend ing the same
school.
UK. WILLIAMS: Well, maybe, since I an so close
to completeion, if your honor please. I will go on.
{
v/ Bast Fifth Street, no. the next black elementary
school. No. 2 on here, is Chattanooga Avenue. Now. where is
Chattanooga Avenue located?
A Where is Central?
g Central, right over here next to the rxver.
a That's correct, in that area,
g All right, sir. Now, then Chattanooga Avenue
is now No. 6 and. lo and behold, we have the exact same zone
there built in, don't we?
A Close to it, yes.
g In the now single zones we adopted the old
zoning, the black Chattanooga Avenue zone, incidentally,
insofar as white children are concerned, that was in the
area of the Hemlock School, which we demonstrated earlier
didn' t have any white children out in that area anyway, did
it?
That's right.
R l t M A W O tk C A ! > F Y B S M I T H » N H A S S O l l A T b S
C F R M T r O i H O R M l A N t ' i Rt » O U T I H S
H E f M ' F N i C M A P ! i N O A l K H U B B t L L
A
Taylor - Cross 183
which is down here, is on the new map. is No. 9, and there
were extensive alterations in the William Junior Davenport
zone but those alterations were by means of taking the white
children in this Clifton 11x11 s area out of it, weren't they?
A It was keeping the Clifton dills children divided
up into three centers there.
g Here again we had a black zone, namely, the
William J. Davenport zone, which was predominantly or almost
exclusively hi at the top but in its mid-port ion the
Clifton lulls area and in the Cedar Hill area it was pre
dominantly white, so what we did was to adopt the white
i
elementary zones for Clifton Hills and the other one, the
Cedar liill, and leave what had once been a big zone for
William Davenport School as the shortened zone that we see
reflected as No. 9?
j\ (witness moves head up and down.)
w But still substantially the same zone exoapt with
f
those exceptions?
A Still substantially the same people attending
the same three centers,
g Along the same zone lines?
A Yos, in the proximity of their building,
g Yes. Ail right, sir. Now, the Calvin Donaldson
was No. 4, and Donaldson is No. 10 on here and it's the exact
g Now, then the next one. Ho. 3, Davenport School,
R i ( h a r m a C a s f v 8 S m i t h a n d A s s » 0 < . i a t e s
r . E R T l ' I E D S H O M I - A N D H I M O P T f c R S
H E F E R K N C E M A R I N D A l t M U B B t t «_
J I
I
. I
i;
-
s
ft
10
11
r j
1
11
i:>
10
IT
1*
1!'
•JO
Jl
• I *
JO
‘Jl
:.!• >
Taylor - Cross 184
aaioc school?
A Yes.
U We have been over that.
A Yes.
U Fort Cheatham was No. 6. where is that located?
t k That * s the little fellow out there in the middle
of the Ridge, Missionary Ridge, to the west side of it.
q All right, sir. The middle to the west?
A Come back to the other map, we can show it.
L, Here it is, yes. the Fort Cheatham zone. On
the other iuap it is zoned Ho. 15, this little area in here.
Well, th«> Fort Cheatham was a big zone then, wasn't it?
A Fort was a small school.
g Hut tHo black zone was a big zone and covered
areas that are now included in zone Ho. 27, which is
Ridgedale, and hone No. 14, which is East Lake, didn't they,
when it was an all black zone?
A I believe that's what it covered. It covered
all that district along there.
tj Something has just occurred to roe. The concept
of distance did not matter too great an extent idaen wo were
zoning for segregation, did it?
A we had a given number of schools that were
classified ail black that covered the city and the whole
city was covered by them .
P 1 A h I a A * U b M r H A N D A S S O C I A T t b
I H M I I n • . • H O K I I A N I ) H l f ' u R T t W S
I- »• M A t f i f 11 • A l fc M . J B B t l u
Taylor - Cross 185
0 And you liad—
A (Interposing) Sane zanod white and the whole
city was covered.
q You had sane very large zones, if there had heen
any black children attending downtown here in the south of
the William Davenport zone he would have had a considerable
distance to travel to that school up there at 9. No. 9?
A There was some wild-looking zones in there.
(j The saute is true here, if you had a b lack child
living down here on the border line of Georgia, in that old
Fort Cheatham zone, he would have had a considerable distance
to travel. Then when you drew your new zone lines you drew
a zone, a compact zone right around that?
A Cloze to capacity of the building, we tried to
have these people in these buildings we had.
q Cainpactinent had not been important?
A As far as the number of people attending that
school didn't change, the number of pupils.
^ So important thing is the adjustment of the
pupils to the capacity and not necessarily the
geographic distance to the school?
A You had to work both of them,
g Well, all right, but—
A (Interposing) Socuetiiues hardships in than.
There are other considerations that cams ahead' b-
R . H A R O A 0 SM'TH A N D A b S O C I A T I ' S
I M I , ' ; ; b H O H T i . A M i N F P O M T t R S
r n f » - r * t N < F m a r t n u a i i h u b b h l
Taylor - Cross 136
of it sometimes?
A
<u
School.
Q
A
U
to wiiat
exactly
A
U
it?
A
L>
Howard is now No. 21 and is exactly the same* virtually the
samo, no, it is exactly the same, it has the little tip up
on the top and the saute conformity, it's exactly the same,
isn't it?
A I would say so.
Howard Elementary School. Compare 21 on Exhibit
4 with 8 oil Exhibit 1. isn't it the same?
A I can* t tell but if you say it is I agree with
you because you see it.
All right. I assure you it is.
;■* . a m ; 1 ' A ‘, t . y 0 S m i I m a n d A s t > o t l A i t s
». H' »•) SHO*r»-*MlJ H f P O R T t H S
N< I- M A R T N I . ' A U H U B B E L L
That's true.
Yes, sir. Now, then No. 7. the James A. Henry
West central.
West central?
No, no, north.
That's up in the bend of the river and corresponds
is now Henry School, it's exactly the same, isn't it
the same?
(Witness moves head up and down.)
And that was in an all black school, too. wasn't
Yes.
All right, sxr. Now. the Howard School, No. 8,
T<.ylor - Cross 187
A Okay.
q Let* 3 take No. 9, Orchard Knob, on Exhibit 1 the
old Orchard Knob, and compare it. compare it with So. 26 on
the new map and we note, as we noted earlier, that in drawing
your new zone lines you cut some people off the bottom of the
Howard zone but except for that. I mean of the Orchard Knob,
but except for that it's substantially the same, isn't it?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
.j All right, sir. Incidentally, do you know
whether these people that you cut off the bottom are white
or black?
A Bottom of?
q Bottom of Orchard Knob?
A Of Avondale? Avondale is the one we moved some
into Orchard Knob, they were black.
y No, sir. Orchard Knob on the new map, as 1 get
xt, is No. 26, isn't it. right here?
A Uh-huh.
y Orchard Knob on Exhibit 1. your old zone, is 9
right here, they appear to be exactly the same except that
there's an area that was cut off at the bottom?
a That area you pointed to over here is predominantly
white.
q It's the Highland Park area, isn't it?
A Yes.
R i c h a r d a C * s i > B S m i i h a n d A b S O u A n s
( . f . R l II i E O & H O R T M A N O Wf K O H 1 L R S
N f c F K R E N F M A R T N D A L F M U B B E L L
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Taylor - Cross iaa
u So then you took the old Orchard Knob area and
in drawing your new zona lines you cut off an area of white
residential concentration and put it into a white school ,
didn't you, into the Highland Park School? I aw not saying
you did it, the School Board did it, didn't they. Dr. Taylor?
A The same reply that has been to the other
questions.
g That is true?
A Yes.
<j Now, then let's take the next one, Louie Sanderson,
which is Ho. 10 on Exhibit 1, and it's xu the western portion,
it's in the western portion. Well, that conforms, that's the
sawe as the St. Elmo, as the white St. Elmo are, isn't it,
it's the same as the white St. Elmo area? Well, where is
houie Sanderson on here. Ho. 28?
a Pie-shaped there.
, on, I see. So most of the black people live up
here in this little triangular portion of Louie Sanderson?
4X They lived around the Louie Sanderson building.
^ They lived around the Louie Sanderson building,
that was the black school and here was the white school for
that satt«e district and that district didn't have just four
schools in it, that district had five schools in it, didn't
it, that were right there in the same area, namely, Louie
Sanderson, Donaldson, Bell and Trotter, all black schools,
R k . I i A H ' *t » s n b S M 1 H A N D A S S O ' A I L S
C I R f i l IH.' S H O P f ►' A N l , H l P O P r t t l ' i
M £ H P l M A P I N l t A l . 1 H i J B B t l l.
Taylor - Cross 189
and one single white school, namely, the St. Elmo school?
a St. Elmo.
g Iiow did the Louie Sanderson School wind up with
that rezoning?
A It was predom inantly black,
g Predominantly or all?
a All black some years, some years it had a lew
whites.
Weil, let's look at it the first year.
A School formerly Negro.
g The first year it had no whites, the second
year it had no whites, and, incidentally, that was a 145-pupil
school, wasn't it?
A That is right.
v, One hundred forty-five in '62- '63, 164 in
• 61-'64?
A *64-*65 it had three whites, so one year it did
have same whites, is what I tried to say.
g Yes. sir, hut based on your former testimony
that school had an inadequate enrollment, didn't it?
A It went down, we zoned some of Howard, I mean
Chattanooga Avenue into it and it kept losing sod wo could
house it in the Donaldson and St. Elmo and the Howard schools,
g Was any consideration given to combining this
Sanderson School with the St. Elmo School?
R i c h a r d a C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F f R E N t E M A R T N f l A l t H U B B E I L
Taylor - C r o w 190
a Vie contained as touch as we could for the capacity,
it went within three of the capacity when we split St. Elmo.
I mean Sanderson.
0 You ultimately did abolish Sanderson, did you?
A That's right.
G But in drawing your zone lines you drew your
zone lines in this area that had originally been white,
Zone No. IS, the St. Elmo, under the old dual zoning, and
which had contained these four black schools in that exact
same zone, you redrew it so that all of the black school
zones, all four of the black schools remained black and the
white schools remained white?
A We drew it so the people closest to the school
that attended that zone, happened to be four blacks and one
white.
G It actually was not redrawn, the same zone lines
Based on the previous residential concentrations were used,
weren't they?
A Not the same zone line.
G Well, haven't we discovered, haven't we discovered
that in redrawing this zone line for this last one, for
Sanderson, didn't you just find the same zone line that you
had down here to cut off the black population there?
A well, that zone, the old Sanderson for the black,
went all the way down, that there is short.
R : . H A N D ft A S t y £) > M H H A N I A b S O l I A I ! S
< I P l ! | ; f (.) f. H O R ' H A N i i R f H O H I f R S
Nt t M A n t i N » ' A L E H l j B S K i •
Taylor - Cross 191
the School hoard hasn't violated its zones, now. has it. in
other words, the children are attending schools according to
their zones, aren't they?
A They should be.
0 Well.
A if scene body is making an error we don't know of
it.
^ So we may safely assume since there are no white
children in the Sanderson School and there were no black
children in the St. Elmo School that this line was drawn
between a residential concentration of black and white people?
A Yes, 1 agree with that, the statement you made
1 agree with that, that Sanderson remained black.
q I think we have covered this. Maybe I had better
just find out about Joseph E. Smith. Where is Joseph E.
Smith School?
A At the bottom of the V m the Riverside area.
w in the Riverside area?
A You see the bottom of that?
u No. 11. Joseph E. Smith is still in existence
arid is Zone No. 29, isn't it, and it's the exact same zone,
shaped like a bowl, isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
u It's so exact that they have even got this little,
<u But if there had jjeen any blacks down here, since
R k .h a r u ft ' A i f c v B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
« I R T I I I T J S H O R T H A N D r f p o r t m t s
H E F f c R I N ' > M A R T N D A l t H M B B t . l t.
Taylor - Cross 192
t h e y even copied in the little deviation there, didn't they?
a Yes, I'd say so.
c nil right, sir. And Spears Avenue, No. 12, we
have already said which zone that was in?
A jvcross the river.
w Up to the top of the river, we have already
discussed that?
A Yes.
Q That followed the exact line— it did not follow
the exact line because all of this was Spears Avenue, hut
we have in the Spears Avenue black zone the reverse of what
we had in the St. hlino white zone downstairs, don't we, m
other words, what we had was a big black zone for a little
black school and two other white schools in it serving the
white population and when we rezoned we just took— we took
the white zones and copied then in and we took the black
zones and copied it in, as a matter of fact, that is a
perfect illustration that we adopted everybody's zones, both
the black and the white zones in that area north of the
river to create the all black Spears School, the all white
Normal Park School, and the virtually all white— no, sir,
that is virtually ail white Brown School, isn't it?
A All right, sir. Now, the rest 1 think we have
already covered, Trotter, we have already covered Trotter
in connection with the St. Eliuo?
R l ( H A R D A < A5»fc Y B S M . I M A N O A S S O C I A T t S
( t - R T M I L U S H O W T H A N I J Rfc f-’o R T F R*»
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A Yes.
'■j It's exactly alike. The rest of this is optional.
all the rest of the black elementary school zones were
optional and that corresponds again, just as in the case of
the junior high schools, that covers all of this area out in
the white neighborhood, doesn't it, 14?
A Yes.
u So, in other words, the black school zones, the
ulack children, the few black children who lived in the
white neighborhood could go to any elementary school that
was designated ror their race?
A That's right.
But they couldn' t go to any of these that were
designated for white children?
A Before '62-'63 that was the practice.
THE COURT: Does that finish that particular line
of questioning?
MR. WILLIAMS: That finishes that particular
portion of it, if your Honor please, pardon me.
THE COURT: Yes. We are about at the point
normally where we would recess for the day. Is there some
further matter you wish to taxe up this evening before we
recess other th.in the matter of setting another date?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, sir. 1 would say that I am
a considerable distance away from completion of the cross
H i t . H A H I j Pk ( i b S M M H A N D A s s o c l A f k S
v \ n j . » i c* s N o w r ^ A N U p o r t l w s
!<| 1 f k i ' N i . . f M A P I N D A l E HIJBBEL..
Taylor - Cross 194
examination.
Till: COURT: Anything further you wish to take
up this evening, other than the matter of setting a further
date?
MR. WITT: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Now, let's see where we
stand then on setting another date for this hearing.
het's start talking a little bit about the date.
I don't have ruy calendar right in front of me but what is
the situation?
MR. WILLIAMS: If your Honor please, while 1
really hesitate to ask for a delay, I am usually the one
pushing the other way, the Legislature is scheduled to
adjourn on May the 9th and if your Honor could find a date.
THE COURT: Setae time after that dato. May the
9 th?
MR. WILLIAMS: As near as possible.
THE COURT: Let me look for my calendar, I had
it when we had the arraignment. I didn't lay it around on
someone else's table, did I? If 1 hadn't found that I
wouldn't have had anything set the rest of this year.
I have cases set through the 7th of May that I
must try in the order in which they are set, as a matter of
tact, 1 have cases sot, quite franJtly, ali the way through
until up in October. I will have to make soiiie shifting of
Ri< h a r d ft G a S t v b S m i t h a n d A s s o « . i a t f s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R I i N D A i . fe H U H B E L I .
Taylor - Cross 195
cases.
What aoout the week of the 10th of May. when did
you say you were out of the Legislature?
MR. WILLIAMS: The 9th.
HIE COURT: The 9th. Well, the week of the 17th,
somewhere in that neighborhood?
MR. WILLIAMS: I believe the week of the 10th.
I came here without my calendar but with the knowledge in iuy
iaind that there are two cases, I have a case set May the 17th
and one Kay the 24th, both of which I am practically under
court order to try, if your Honor please, so the week of the
10th would be all right for me.
MR. WITT: That is agreeable with the defendants.
THE COURT: Set it on the week of the 10th.
MR. WILLIAMS: That is a Monday?
MR. WITT: The 10tli is Monday.
Mk. WILLIAMS: If your Honor please, may I be
permitted to leave a make a phone call?
THE COURT: The problem I have is I have one,
two, three, four, five, six. seven cases set that week that
I will have to move, one of which is a case that is supposed
to last several weeks, it is supposed to go on. The other
alternative would be to set it oeginning on the 14th of June.
Mow. one of those areas, the 10th or the 17th of May or the
14th of June.
h i R ' i ft 13 S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t l s
t t H r i r i E O S H O R T M A N O I f H ^ C R U P S
H E l - F . RT . N i E M A H I I N O A M H U B B E I L
Taylor - Cross 196
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, allow k<c one minute
to make a phone call*
THE COURT: Yes. Suppose you just step out and
use the phone in the front office.
(Thereupon, a short recess was had.)
MK. WILLIAMS: If your Honor please, I hate to
ask your Honor to inconvenience himself but that hay the
10th is just the better date.
MR. WITT: Suits me fine.
THE COURT: All right, bet's see. Do you have
any idea how much longer it may take to present the proof
you have in mxnd presenting?
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, I had estimated that
it would take two and a half hours for Mr. Taylor on direct
examination. We took three hours and about 45 minutes, so
that is how good an estimator I am.
We had estimated that with the testimony we had
that it would take a day and a half of direct.
THE COURT: All right. Would you have any
indication as to how long, will we need all of that week, or
will we need more than a week?
MR. WILLIAMS: I don't think we will need more
than that week, if your Honor please. Very frankly, I don't
know how much of that week we will need. I think that we
have gotten over a great deal of this.
R i c h a r d A C a s e y B S m i t h a n o A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N - E M A H 1 i N D A l E H U B B E L L
Taylor - Cross l'J7
TliE COURT: Well, let us just start it then on
the 10th. Kay the 10th. and then we will carry it through
until we finish the prooi.
Haw, is there anything else to take up?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. your honor. X would like to
request, it’s very time consuming ior us to examine witness’
exhibits, oi course, this is not Mr. Witt's fault, for us
to examine exhibits here in court and try to cross examine,
we could shorten things considerably if the School Board
could possibly furnish us copies of these exhibits. It is
usually done, the plaintiffs are usually furnished copies
and 1 would like to request that at this time.
THE COURT: What do you say?
MR. WILLIAMS; In turn wo can be prepared to move
expeditiously■
THE COURT: Can you make available to him copies
o£ your exhibits prior to the hearing?
MR. WITT: Your Honor, 1 haven't given it any
thought. I suppose ve csn. This is sli we »«.. would
have to make pictures of them. I suppose.
THE COURT: Tlieso are the exhibits.
MR. WITT: That's what he was asking for.
THE COURT: 1 was assuming he was talking about
any additional exhibits.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am talking about these as well
R i c h a r d a C a s e . B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T i P ' P n S H O H I H A N U K f . P O R T C R b
w F » E R E N i . F M A I JT i N t ) A I F H U 8 8 F . L L
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Taylor - Croat* 198
because, you see, 1 may have sotae additional cross examina
tion and 1 could shorten it and it also may be that my expert
u
may have some.
MR. WITT: Well, to recreate the pupil locator
maps, they would have to be done.
THE COURT: Some of those—
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) How about these
maps, though, if your Honor please?
THE COURT: What do you say, do you have any
duplicates?
MR. WITT: We have no duplicates. Those are the
only maps we have made. 1 suppose we could taka pictures
of thorn.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am especially anxious, if your
Honor please, to have copies of these maps and those I
4recognize, the pupil locator maps would be very difficult
to reproduce. I do think, however, that the Court should
have the benefit of all of the grades, because I don't think
that the Court can, and this grves the Court time now to get
the rest of them, I don't think the Court can really see
what the School System looks like unless it has available
all of the pupil locator maps of all of the grades. Moreover,
it will not be a loss of time because I understand that in
order to really produce a competent plan that it is very
helpful, if the Court should hold that a plan is required.
R i c h a r d a C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T l N D A L E H U B B E L L
I.
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be too much trouble to duplicate that map, the other maps.
The only way you could duplicate it would be a matter oi
photographing them.
MR. WITT: We would be glad to duplicate the
naps if they would reimburse us for the cost.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court* they are
.« *
the agency that has the constitutional duty— it amazes me—
they are the ones who have the constitutional duty to remove
segregation from this system and they are talking about
plaintiffs reimbursing them. Indeed# I am going to ask the
Court to require to pay the cost of our expert# to pay a
solicitor's fee to me as wall as the cost of this cause#
assuming that the Court gives us a reasonable ruling. They
spent thousands of dollars to maintain segregation and then
cotue in here—
THE COURT: (interposing) Well# let's see if we
can't work out something. These maps# of course, merely
give a historical development of this pattern. Can you not
pick out either the first or the last map in this series,
together with this, and would that not serve your purpose?
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, not only
that, we feel that we are entitled to them.
THE COURT: These are available# Mr. Williams,
they are right here and they will be available for anyone
to study at this point. What you are asking is that they
?00Taylor - Cross
R i c h a r d fit C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N O R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R I N D A l E H U B B E L L
Taylor - Cross 201
make additional copies. Here are copies, these copies are
yours, you can use them in any way that you soe fit within
the jurisdiction of the Court.
What you are asking is that vie make additional
copies available to take elsewhere.
Now. I was trying to work out something that
would seem to me would not be too difficult to reproduce,
Exhibit No. 2 seems to me you could do that without too much
work, likewise it would seem to me that if you could furnish
them, you have these maps, these maps are just printed map
forms, I take it you can furnish these maps, it wouldn't be
too difficult to recreate, certainly say the first in the
series and the last in the series and then if you wish to
3tudy the maps in between the two series they will be avail
able right here to study.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, may it please the Court, I
just feel like that will unduly inhibit me in preparing the
plaintiff's side of the case. I believe that I need all of
the maps.
TOE COURT: Well, they are here and they are
available.
MR. WILLIAMS: Can they be signed out and shipped
to me in the meantime, your Honor?
THE COURT: ;vny objection to that?
MR. WITT: No, we have no objection to that.
R i c h & C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T N I / A L E H U B B E L L
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Taylor - Cross 202
MR. WILLIAMS: l would propose temporarily,
without any cauuitment, I raoan without waiving U m iinnm1
that we are going to ask that the defendant be required to
pay all costs in this case, I am willing to defray that.
TUB COURT: As I understand it, you are asking
to withdraw these exhibits for the purpose of studying and
tiiere is no objection to your doing that.
MR. WILLIAMS: All right, sir.
MR. WITT: It's a little bit difficult for me
to understand why he needs all of them in the sense that
each one was prepared to show the changes in response to a
direct question for each year and to have all of theta on the
basis that they will be back in court available for the next
time.
MR. WILLIAMS: I assume they can be dismounted
for shipment so we will not have to pay the cost of shipping
that.
THE COURT: Check them out here and sign a
receipt for them.
MR. WITT: The pins are going to be difficult now.
THE COURT: He is not asking for those, is he?
MR. WITT: The pupil locator ioapa.
THE COURT: As I understand, he is not asking for
those. If you wish to study those—
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) May it please the
R i c h a r d fit C a s f y b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T N D A l E H U B B E L L
Taylor - Cross 203
Court. I believe that I. sorrily believe that the Court, it
your Honor please, in Nashville, ve ashed two years ago tor
pupil locater maps and the Court, as your Honor is doing,
had some reservations about it and just kept putting it off.
denyxng it, and we ultimately got down to a final hearing in
March on the question of desegregation and the Court got in
tiie midst of it and said. "Well. I see now that we can't do
anything without a pupil locater map and I am recessing the
case for two weeks and ordering the Board to prepare the map."
Now, if your Honor please, there was two years
delay and then I was delayed another two weeks because of
t-h,-> court's failure to recognize what I believed to be the
obvious facts that you can't decide this without it.
THE COURT: Now, are we talking anout another
map. Mr. Williams?
MR. WILLIAMS: We are talking about pupil locater
maps.
THE COURT: Have we got this agreed? Let's agree
on one thing.
MR. WILLIAMS: I will sign these out.
THE COURT: Ail right.
MR. WITT: with regard to the pupil locater
i.iaps and the reference to two years in Nashville, the pupil
locators were first asked for Monday afternoon.
MR. WILLIAMS: Sir. I refer counsel to our
R i i h a r u a C a s e y B S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
. L R T i r I E O S H C n I H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T N P A i E - H U B B K L i .
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2.7
motion for further relief, which was filed in 1968. in which
we specifically requested a pupil locator map. We didn't
call it a pupil locator map, we said a map showing w h e r e —
THE COURT: Gentlemen. 1 think we need sene
further evidence one way or the other or something to indi
cate if these grades— they have shown the pupil locators on
the 2nd, the 7th and the 10th grades. Now, if those are
representative, if somebody can establish that those are
representative of Uie entire school population then I assume
they would be adequate for the purpose. If they are not
representative of the entire school population then certainly
we should have additional pupil locator maps.
I don't know that wo are in position to decide
tltis, however, this evening. One reason, ray reporter has
another engagement at five o'clock.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, it is so
clear that there can be no determination about any integra
tion or segregation of children unless you know where all
of the children are.
THE COURT: Well, you know, sometimes a sample
can give you an accurate picture of the total population
and if these samples over here are accurate representations
of the total population, school population, then they would
serve the purpose. If they are not accurate representations
then we will need additional ones and it may well be that
Taylor - Cross 204
R i c h a r d a C a s e y b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R t ' P O R T f R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R l ' N O A l F . M U B B E L L
Taylor - Cx o m 205
we should attempt to get sene additional as an indication of
whether these are representative.
mil. WULLJLAMSi May it please the Coart, Mr. Taylor
has indicated that they could complete the pupil locator maps
in six to ten days.
THE wiTHKSSs Under the condition of an ample
supply of people.
THE COURTt Well, it may well be that we should
have additional pupil locator maps for another year and than
compare it with theee and eee. You have the tenth grade in
high school, suppose you took, the twelfth grade in high
school, and then if we could compare that, if that shows a
marked similarity it might well he that these would be
representative of the total school population. In other
words, you may take all twelve grades and you may get
identical results with What you already have and if that is
true then it certainly serves no purpose to go the tins and
trouble and expense of producing all twleve grades.
i
Haw, if, on the other hand. If these are not
representative, then we are certainly going to have pupil
locator maps that are representative.
MR. WILLIAMSx May it please the Court. Z wonder
if the Court is really aware of what we are deal tng with.
We are dealing with some issues here as to whether none
lines have been racially germandered. The only way you can
R i c h a r d & C a s e y b S m i t h a n d A s s o c i a t e s
C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S
R E F E R E N C E M A R T I N D A L E - H U B B E L L
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Taylor - Cross 206
determine that is by knowing where all of the children are
because it ia baaed on racial concentrations, if your Honor
please, and just to have the children front one'grade in a
school doesn't tell you where all the children are.
The other thing I hope that w aha 11 be dealing
with is the desegregation plan and if my educational export
is worth his salt he will tell you that you cannot prepare
a desegregation plan without a pupil locator map.
How, if your Honor fails to direct, and they
haven't even said that they are not able to do it, they are
just saying, "I don't went to do it," and, if your Honor
please, I am tired after 15 years of having people who have
j
a public function abdicating their duty and saving they
don't want to do it. I don't like it. I think you are
pressing for something that I, as a white person, don't want.
Courts have said, "We are entitled to an Integrated
school system." And I respectfully sUxait, if yaur Honor
please. I will put my expert on the stand, my educational
expert to testify that you cannot do anything.
THE COURT: Hr. Williams, are you in a position
to say, you have an expert that is willing to say that these
plans which they now have are not rep resentative of the
school population?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. sir.
THE COURT: All right. Put your witness on.
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*,t .E have him n m r that these arc not representative.
MR. WILLIAMS; I think I can get you
THE COURT: (interposing) Well, tbat'a exactly
rfiat I thought you were in positron. You can t tell whether
-hay are representative or not. That's what X vai wanting
to establish, if we can establish what would ba a representa
tive population, that's what 1 think we should do. If it rs
going to take the total population in order to determine it.
then we will have to get the total population. Xf these are
representative, however. X think that they will he adequate.
HR. WILLIAMS: bay it please the Court, say I
just put him on for one or two questions?
(Thereupon, an off the record discussion was had.
following which court was adjourned.)
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SECOND DAY OF TRIAL
Hay 10, 1971
THE COURT: All right, gentlemen, are we prepared
to proceed this morning in the case of James Jonathan Mapp
versus the Board of Education of the City of Chattanooga ,
Case No. 3564?
Plaintiffs ready to proceed?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
TIE COURT: All right, sir. Defendants ready to
proceed?
MR. WITT: Defendants are ready to proceed.
THE COURT: Very well. Counsel wish to make any
opening statements this morning? Wish to ma’te an opening
statement on behalf of the defendant — I mean, the plaintiff
on any matters?
MR. WILLIAMS: If the Court please, there are
perhaps two matters that I ought to mention to the Court.
In the course of the respite, counsel for the defendant filed
sore interrogatories seeking certain information regarding
the witnesses to be offered by the plaintiff, and their quali
fications -- and the qualifications of expert witnesses.
We filed an objection to those interrogatories.
Since counsel has not brought it up, I take it he does not
wish to pursue that at this time. He filed
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211
THE COURT: (Interposing) Frankly, gentlemen,
I saw that motion and I waited for your response and I received
0 response. I thought it might be helpful if you gentlemen
would just confer with each other here today and probably
much of the information that you seek could be resolved just
by conferring. If not, then if you wish to pursue the matter,
1 thought I would hear you further on it.
MR. WILLIAMS: I just, if Your Honor please, wanted
at this time to state to counsel that I should be glad to
furnish him at this time resumes on the three expert witnesses
wnora I plan to use. I thought perhaps you might have that
information.
THE COURT: That might resolve any problem. If it
doesn't, why, I will hear you further.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, I might
also state to the Court that it's been a long time since I
have been before Your Honor in the courtroom. Is it now
customary for counsel to speak from the lecturn when they
address the Court?
t u p . COURT: It will not be necessary except when
I you are addressing the witnesses.
MR. WILLIAMS: All right, sir. Well, simply state
to the Court that I assume the Court is aware, during the
respite, the Supreme Court has handed down decisions.
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THE COURT: Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS: In several cases, and I — first,
been my Intention to address the Court in this regard
immediately. I, on second thought, I propose to cosqplete the
examination of the witness who is currently on the stand and
then I should like to have leave to make a motion to the Court.
THE COURT: Very well.
MR. WITT: May it please the Court, as a result
of the decision by the Supreme Court and our understanding
of the significance of this decision, we filed a motion for
summary judgment Friday in an attempt to clarify the matters
before the Court. And, I think the motion in the brief
probably speaks for itself.
£ should say this, that in the course of organising
our testimony, I was guided by the categories that this Court
described in its order in February and so I limited my direct
examination of Mr. Taylor to zones While Mr. Taylor actually
will testify in other categories other than zones; but I
think it would simplify the proof to stick to zones in the
proof and dispose of that and then go back to the other itests,
and I hope that counsel — that that is permissible. That's
the reason I did it for the purposes of clarification of the
proof.
THE COURT: All right.
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MR. WILLIAMSi I am not sure that I would agree to
that, if Your Honor please. I have not, in refexenoe to the
manner of examination of Mr. Taylor* since that was not announo
at the outset* in reference to the motion for summary judgment*
I am curious. I have not received a copy of that, and although
I was in touch with Mr. Witt Saturday —
THE COURT: (Interposing) I did not receive a cop)
until this morning. The Clerk brought me a copy this morning.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes* sir. But* I was in touch with
Mr. Witt Saturday and he didn't tell me anything about it.
MR. WITT: The motion was placed in the mail*
quarter to twelve Friday morning.
THE COURT: Well* I think it would be helpful*
gentlemen, to pursue the issues as they have heretofore been
defined at this time until I hear further from counsel and
counsel has an opportunity to respond to any pending motions.
And, assume then it would be appropriate to resume the cross-
examination of Dr. Taylor, is that the stage at idiieh we now
stand?
213
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Have Dr. Taylor take the witness stand
please.
DR. ROBERT ARMSTRONG TAYLOR*
having been previously duly sworn* resumed the stand, and
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1 214
testified further as follows:
3 | CROSS EXAMINATION (continued)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
q Mr. Taylor, did race have a part to play at all
in the establishment of the new school xones in connection with
the school desegregation plan?
A i had previously stated I wasn't working in the
area of zoning when the original cones were established. Best
of my knowledge, race did not have a part in establishing the
school zones.
Q All right, sir. Then, so, then, the school zones
were then established neither with a view to mixing the races
in the schools or not mixing them. They were just established
with regard to school — such neutral factors as school capacity
and that sort of thing?
A Well, it was established — I mean, zones are
established in the school system, in any school system that
have zones for several reasons. Some of them are being for
the most practical distribution of its pupils to the attendance
centers it operates so that the highest level — make it
feasible to facilitate the highest level of administration —
of school administration.
q Yes. So, what you are saying is what you considered
were purely administrative factors without regard to any
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question of mixing the races in the schools?
A Where people live, proximity of the people, most
convenient to the people, to the centers we had that ware
established at the time when we went into the xoning, single
zone.
q I see. Mow, then, I want to make this clear. You
considered where people lived but you did not consider the
race?
A well, a person living in Chattanooga would know
the general race of people where they live, but the objective
was to try to place the people in the moat accessible travel
route to the closest school possible, one of the objectives.
q Without regard to race?
A Without regard to race.
q And without regard to any question of mixing the
children in the schools?
A I can't answer that part. I would say that —
that primary criteria was for the convenience of the youngstara
going to the school closest to their home.
q And without regard to any mixing of children?
A Well, if mixed there, they would go mixed. If
they were of a single race, they'd go single race.
q What you are saying is that you considered —
that the factor which was considered was proximity to the
Taylor - Cross *■*•**
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school and that if there was any racial mixing, then that would
be accidental, is that correct?
A It would be the natural — where people lived is
what I am trying to say, not accidental, that part of it.
Q All right, sir. Now, then — well, you said
earlier that race generally was not a factor in any decisions?
A I would say anyone1s living as a race and they
went to school, so — but the establishment of aones wasn't
based on race. Based where people live, proximity, one of the
reasons.
Q So that if you had School A and School B, with
dual zones, and you re-established the — and you established
new zones for School A and School B, then the — you did not
consider the mixture of th« children in the schools, you just
considered the proximity? You just drew the- some lines
according to proximity?
A I didn't consider either one personally but from
ray observation the way they were drawn, they were drawn on
proximity by whoever considered them.
q All right. Now — and, in accordance with that
philosophy, what — in accordance with that philosophy, I
take it, no efforts were made to counteract resegregation
either, were chey?
A I would say we continued to try to follow what
Taylor - Cross 216
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wo thought was tha right policy in establishing school senes
and that was for the young people In a zona, the accessible
route to go to the center that was closest to their home.
q Mas that true in the case of Clara Carpenter School
A Clara Carpenter School, in the eatablishmsnt of the
single zone for Clara Carpenter, it was tru«< for single-zone
people to go to single zone as decreed by the order that we
got.
q Well, did you or not bus several hundred white
children out of the Carpenter zone and send then to Glenwoou?
A That was the remains of the dual zone. In other
words, before we had the single zones where the regulation
was that white people go to a school that was designated a
white-attended center and the black people go to a school that
is a black people center, then there were some busing, was
from the downtown ares when it reached the point where it
wasn't economical to operate Clara Carpenter as * foxnerly
white school, sometime back in the history —
THE COURT: (Interposing) Mr. Williams, could we
have some of the maps put back up? It would be helpful.
MR. WILLIAMS: I was about to ask that.
THE COURT: You axe addressing yourself now to
elementary schools?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.
Taylor - Cross 21?
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Taylor - cross 21S
THE COURT: If we could have the naps put up,
that would help.
HR. WILLIAMS: Elementary and junior high schools,
if Your Honor please. Actually, I should like to ask, if
Your Honor please, they had some exhibits that were attached
that I took to Nashville with me and then sent back, and that's
one of theta there.
THE COURT: Exhibit Ho. 4 was the elementary
single zone, 4, 5, 6.
HR. WILLIAMS: Back was left here. Each of these
was on a hard back that was left in the Clerk's office.
May it please Your Honor, it might be worthwhile
if the Court — rather than take the Court's time, if we could
have a 5-minute recess to see if the Clerk atill has those
cardboard backs.
THE COURT: All right, let's take a few-minutes*
recess and get the maps set up, please. Map 13 set forth the
final changes, as I recall, in the elementary system.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir, that's correct.
(Thereupon, a recess was taken.)
MR. WI*nP: May it please the Court, Mr. Williams
is now moving into an examination of the Clara Carpenter
School in 1962, *63. We consider that the testimony with
reference to that year is irrelevant and the facts with regard
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219Taylor - Cross
to that particular year, with that particular school, have
already been before this Court, have been appealed gram to
the Circuit Court of Appeals.
The Circuit Court of Appeals decided with referenos
to this period of time and sent the case back to this court
primarily for one issue, and that was faculty desegregation.
We do not see where his testimony with regard to Clara
Carpenter is appropriate at this ties.
THE COURT: Well, overrule the objection and let's
proceed.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
q Now, Clara Carpenter School is No. 7 on this
1962-63 zoning map.
THE COUNT: What map are you referring to now?
MR. WILLIAMS: This is the 1962-63 zoning map,
which elementary zone nap, which, if Your Honor please, was
introduced as Exhibit 5 in the record.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WILLIAMS: No, I am sorry, as Exhibit 4,
yes, sir.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q This, of course, was the first year of desegrega
tion, wasn't it, sir?
A '62-63, yes.
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raylor - Cross
q Aad was Clara Carpenter one o£ those 16 selected
schools?
A Let n» look — yes.
Q All right; all right, sir. Now, then, Clara
Carpenter had white children in it, then, didn’t it, in the
seme?
A I do not have that knowledge.
q Well, were you aware that some 300 white children
were bused out of the Clara Carpenter sone across the all
black East Fifth and across the all-black Orchard Knob into
the all-white Glenwood School in that year?
A The one through three grades were eligible in our
term as far a. desegregation. The fourth, fifth, and sixth
continued under the dual plan, and I believe this other school,
Glenwood, was the sone attended four through six.
Q All right, sir. Now, the scale on this map is
about 3-1/2 inches to 1 mils, isn’t it, from here to here?
A Yeah.
q so, that those white children, grades four to
six, were bused a distance of approximately 2-1/2 to 3 miles
out of their neighborhood, weren’t they, to go to that white
school, weren’t they?
A That was —
MR. WITT; (Interposing) Hay it please the Court j-
220
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1 Taylor - Cross 221
2
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MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) Now —
MR. WITT: (Interposing) We object, to this. This
is in the record. This action was done subject to the approval
of this Court. They are — he is implying there is something
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wrong from this, and there isn't.
THE COURT: Well —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) If Your Honor please,
our position is that the question here now is whether or not
the zones were designed to effect — to affirmatively promote
school desegregation. In interrogating him about efforts to
prevent resegregation, he has said no, that they did not, that
the only consideration was proximity to schools, and this is
relevant on that issue, it seems to us.
THE COURT: All right.
in
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BY MR. WILLIAMS:
q so that then in respect to that situation,
proximity to school, was not considered the primary — a
prevailing consideration, was it?
A Proximity, I said, was one of hie considerations
and this — the school where the eligible go by the Court-
ordered plan was - had to go to the moat practical school in
considering of accessible distance for a white child and the
judgment of some people said that Glenwood is most practical
place where they had space for those people, and those people
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were bused to Glenwood or got to Glenvood someway.
Taylor - Cross 222
q But proximity — but the following year, Clara
Carpenter had to be closed because of a shortage of pupils
in it, didn’t it?
A Clara Carpenter was closed for administrative
reasons as this administrative reason could be handled in
the one center at Bast Fifth — East Pifth School had a j
considerable number that was bused into it from out in the
other area that's up in the upper zone that was eligible, so
when that diminished, room became available at the local
situation.
q I gather from what you say that Clara Carpenter
was closed because —
A (Interposing) We could house them in East Fifth
Street — pupils in grades one through six lived in that area.
That's — contained seven and thirteen.
q Exhibit 3 shows that Clara Carpenter was closed
at the end of the 1962-63 year and was consolidated with
East Fifth Street, which is No. 13?
A Thirteen, yes.
q And, it was closed because there weren't enough
pupils without these white children, there weren't enough
pupils to fill those two facilities, were there?
A The predominant number of pupils were in those
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the previous year were black pupils. In other words, it was
a double busing situation. The black pupils living in Avondale
area were bused into East Fifth and Clara Carpenter and white
pupils in that area previous to that were zoned out to Avondale
was —
q (Interposing) Avondale?
A White school, and the oovenent of the Megro into
that area was already established in '62 and *63, but the
school system had still operated under the dual zone at that
stage before this date here.
q But, Mr. Taylor, the fact of the natter is, though,
no matter how you cut it, Clara Carpenter was closed because
you didn't have enough pupils to fill it, enough black pupils
in that area to fill it, wasn't it?
A I can't answer the exact reason. I know it was
closed because that one school, East Fifth, could handle the
pupils in that area and —
q (interposing) All right. So that that meant
there weren't enough pupils to fill up Clara Carpenter?
A Black or white, other people in the area.
q Well, after you bused the whites out of Clara
Carpenter into Clenwood, didn't they start moving over there,
too? Didn’t they start moving out?
A I don’t have any knowledge of Glemiood — whites
Taylor - Cross 223
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raoving to Glenwood. I don't have any knowledge of that.
Taylor - Cross 224
q You do have knowledge of whites moving out of the
area of Clara Carpenter, do you not?
A History that they moved out. Closed Carpenter
originally from a white school. They were moved out there,
wasn't any to operate, prior to this date, so there was a
movement of the white pupils out of that downtown area.
q When did you close Carpenter, change it originally
from a white to black?
A I don't know the date previous to this date.
q It was several years before that, wasn't it?
A The record will show it. I don't have the record,
but it can be obtained. I don't —
q (Interposing) All right. You can secure that
and furnish us that?
A If that's the desire.
q At recess I would request it, but in any event,
at the time that Clara Carpenter in 1962-63 became a desegregat
school, it had a substantial number of white students, didn't
it?
A I don't know. I don't know whether they were there
or not. I know there were some in that area, East Fifth. I
know they had considerable number of white pupils.
Q In that area?
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Taylor - Cross
A That went to East Fifth, but went that year or
next year, but they did go to school there so some white
people living in that area remained in there.
q You don’t remember about 300 of them were bused
into Glenwood, do you?
A No, I don’t, I don’t know the number. I know somi
was bused itt Glenwood. I don’t know that 300
q (Interposing) It was in the hundreds, wasn't it?
A I can’t answer.
q will you furnish that information also, the nuaberl
A i don’t know whether they’d furnish it or not,
they'd make an effort. I don’t know A ether it’s available.
q All right.
A But Glenwood'a capacity got to a hundred and ninety
so it couldn't be over a hundred plus or two hundred if every
one was bused, so —
q (Interposing) You say Glenwood*s capacity would
show it?
A we will follow Glenwood there and see how many's
enrolled in it.
q Sir?
A Glenwood had a hundred end ninety-four in ’62-63,
hundred and eighty-five, ’63-64, and a hundred and ninety in
*64-65, and hundred sixty-nine, hundred fifty-eight, hundred
225
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fifty-five.
q Might there not also be some movement out of
Glenwood into another school that —
A (Interposing) It was a movement in Glenwood,
I'd say, happened socae time or other moving frost black to white
people living in Glenwood area. Movement did take place. I
don’t know the date of it, but it happened, because there's
one pupil there now, I think we did have more whites.
q All right, sir. But, in any event — in any event
the — you as administrator of the school system made no effort
to counteract resegregation at all, did you?
A our effort was, as I stated, considering several
things, one was proocimity.
q well, you did not consider the tendency of whites
to move out of cm area, did you?
h I don't get the question.
0 In your zoning policy, you did not consider the
factor of whites moving out of an area of the school that was
inhabited by Negroes, did you?
A I would say we did not consider race in the
situation, and we have had zones that's gone from one race
to the other, and we haven't moved the race with the people,
we have a school building, and we have a reasonable capacity,
and the people that live in —
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Taylor - Cross
q (Interposing) One of those is the Avondale School,
No. 1 here, is it not?
A Avondale is an elementary attendance center.
q And that vent from no Negroes and 317 whites —
A (Interposing) First year it wasn't eligible for
the plan, and it was all white, 317 that first year, *62-63,
I believe.
q All right.
A Next year it was eligible and somewhat changed.
q of course, at that time, the first year it included
for the white zoning, it included little more than is shown
here?
A Three hundred seventeen. The building and it got
thickly populated. We had to do something to house the people.
q 'text — have next year, *63-64, it went to 318
blacks and 170 whites, didn't it?
A Yes, if that’s —
q (Interposing) And, new, referring to your Exhibit
3, it ’ 3 040 blacks and 1 white?
A One white.
q in that zone? And the school board made no effort
to counteract that at all, did it?
A No, it was the desire of the people that moved
in there to move in, and others move out, move out. It was
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their desire. We couldn’t control that.
q Well, of course, the school board could have, by
alteration of zone lines, changed that sene, ccwldn’t they?
a I can't answer that part of it. I think
Taylor - Cross
q (Interposing) Weren't you responsible for zone
lines, Mr. Taylor? Didn't you say — testify on direct
examination that that was your —
A (Interposing) I said I worked for the Superintend*
I had an area that — general administration and general
nt.
administration working there is providing data for the
Superintendent and the Board — I mean, the Superintendent
and Board oi Education, to make decisions.
q Mister —
A (Interposing) Provide information.
q Mr. Taylor, it is possible by alteration of zone
lines to change the racial population of schools, isn't it?
A I would say you can draw zone lines that's all
different directions and get some —
q (interposing) Well, aren't some of your zone
lines drawn in all different directions here?
A They are drawn —
0 (Interposing) Take that Missionary Ridge, that
snake-like figure there. Wouldn't you say that was a kind of
an odd direction?
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Taylor - Cross 229
A That is ona of the basic principles in Boning is
the consideration of natural deterrents to travel and ridges
and hills, kind of difficult to traverse are considered as
one of the features.
q All right. Isn't there a freeway traversing —
crossing and traversing a part of that zone?
A Freeway is difficult to travel on by foot, other
wise, but that wasn't built at the tine in '62-63.
q well, in any event, you do concede that by the
alteration of zone lines, one can — the School Board in
Chattanooga could have substantially altered the racial
conpoj* ition of the schools?
A I am not answering that. I wouldn't say that
I say the zone lines based on the way they are drawn could be
some — may be some change somewhere a little — be little, but
not a major change, if you go by the where people live.
q Couldn't have been any major changes by alteration
of zone lines?
A I am not aware of any. In other words —
q (Interposing) Well, have you made any effort to
try to find out any?
A I have looked as hard as I can.
q I thought you said race was not a consideration?
A I did say race wasn't a consideration.
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Taylor - Cross
Q so, then, you didn’t look to try to find any ways
of altering zone lines to nix the races in the school, did you?
A We have looked as hard as we can to observe the
principles that we try to follow in zoning.
q What are those principles?
A Those principles — the first major principle for—
q (Interposing) Have you gone over those already
in your prior testimony?
A t haven't named all the principles. I have
mentioned some-When you mention race, I said proximity, and
I said deterrents to travel and other safety factors like
thoroughfares, streets - and, I mean, busy streets end
flooded areas. We haven’t mentioned that an a factor.
Natural geographic boundaries — several factors.
Q Any others? I want to make sure you have an
opportunity to mention all of them that you desire.
A Attention to the building capacity is one of them
q All right.
A As far as accessible distance to the building,
capacity, and another one i. to - deterrent, to trawl -
mentioned aome of thoee a. to having public tranaportation.
q without repetition, in order to avoid the
repetition, are there any that you have omitted?
A And last time I think I mentioned all of them.
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Q All right, sir. And, you did not M otion raos.
You did not include race as a factor, did you?
A No, sir.
Q All right, sir. But, now, you oonoodo that if race
if the elimination of segregation had been an objective in
zoning, you could have drawn some sane lines. You could have
redrawn the zone lines to make some changes, couldn't you?
A I don't know, it's possible.
C Yes. You don't know because you didn't try, didn't
have that objective, that's correct?
A Yeah.
q All right. Now, then, let's move from the
drawing of zone lines, go over to — no, let's keep the same
one, because this was your first set of zone lines, wasn't it,
for elementary schools?
A That was the first set.
q All right, sir. Now, then, at two schools that
were right down here together, St. Elmo and Trotter, St. Elmo
was a white school, wasn't it?
A White, yes.
q And Trotter was a black school, wasn't it?
A All black.
q And, the black school zone covered that entire
aj.ua, didn't it?
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That is correct.
Yos. So, that thsrs was no distance factor thars.
lack children x n traveling to Trotter trad *11 ( * t thet
x e a , weren’t they?
k Well, no. X "»• incorrect. The Sanderson area
:overed the west of the riJge. Trotter black area was east
„ the ridge, eo thet other .fte-e-t ... incorr^t by c o r i n g
the whole area.
a Yes, I believe you are right. I believe you are
right Oh th.t one. Maybe It « . the whit, .chool .one covered
the entire area.
HUilhMS. Sorry .bout the delay, Tour Honor.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q Here we are. St. El*o covered the — oovered the
entire area, didn't it?
A That's correct.
Q The white school sons?
A That's correct.
g So that white children were traveling were
already traveling to .chool trem .11 over th.t entire * « * .
were they not, sir?
A if there was any whites living in the area other
than around St. Elwo school.
Q All right, sir.
232
aylor - Cross
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233Taylor - Cross
A But happened to be made up of whites over there
and the blacks on the other side.
Q Have you heard of the device of pairing schools?
A I have heard it mentioned* yes* sir.
q That would have been an excellent set — - pair of
schools for pairing* wouldn't it?
A No, sir.
q Why not?
A It's almost impossible to go from Trotter School
to the St. as one of the natural barriers of the ridge
that runs through there. It's no road across. It's heavily
wooded and it's very steep type of a thing* so it's never been
in the history when we wasn't involved with anything about the
single zones — previously the line was drawn at that point
in the dual sones for bleak pupils. So, it's a — it's a
place of -- difficult way to travel.
Well, did you consider the possibility of pairing?
I did not consider it.
All right. As a matter of fact, you did not?
I didn't draw those maps.
But* you drew the junior high, though?
Junior high.
And after they were drawn, you had, after 1962-63,
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
you had the responsibility for implementing this plan* didn't
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Taylor - Cross
you?
A I had the responsibility for implementing what
the Board had approved, trying to get the building capacity
to be used as much as possible.
q well, didn't you have the responsibility for
continuing supervision of the plan?
A I had, partly.
Q Yes.
A In other words, the Superintendent had the
responsibility, and I worked at his disposal.
q Well, all right. Let's look at Cedar Bill,
number — where is that No. 5 here — and Piney Woods.
A Piney Woods wasn't built at that time.
q But it's right — it's right in this area here?
A It's in the southeast — southwest Chattanooga
area, yes, sir. It wasn’t —
234
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it.
A
Q
A
Q
(Interposing) Well, let's just take a look at
It's over in the Trotter area.
All right.
You —
(Interposing) All right. We will skip that then,
was Clifton Hills, it was in existence then?
A It was, Clifton Hills.
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Taylor - Crocs
Q No. 8 hers. And, Donaldson?
a Middle one, that one.
0 No. 10. And Bell, No. 3?
235
A (Witness Moves head up and down.)
q Here? This was the white school and these were
two black schools, weren't they, two very black schools with
very Bmall areas?
A Tes, sir, concentration of black people there
in small areas, fairly good sice.
q Plants?
A Good.
q Good-sized plants?
A I mean, concentration of black peoples in that
area.
q Did you consider the possibility of clustering
those schoole?
MR. WITT: May it please the Court, I ’d like to
enter another objection to this line of questioning. He is
directing his attention to matters that took place prior to
March the 27th, 1965. And on March the 27tb, 1965, the
plaintiff requested that this Board make decisions without
regard to race, and you are asking questions about — you are
contradicting yourself and you are confusing the record,
because at that time he was under the impression and he was
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advised by counsel to make decisions based or. race was un
constitutional, in accordance with your motion for further
relief.
THE COURT: Well, believe the parties should be
allowed to develop the record and then we can make a better
evaluation of the relevance of this testimony. Overrule the
objection.
BY MR._ WILLIAMS:
q The fact of the matter is — and I can shorten
this particular phase of it — that so far as you know, there
has never been any effort made by anyone in the school system
to use such methods as pairing or clustering of schools or
busing or any other techniques of that nature to attempt to
integrate these schools, has there?
A As far as my knowledge, that had not been used,
that based on race.
0 All right.
MR. WITT: May it please the Court, we will
stipulate ir open court — offer to stipulate to shorten the
proof that the Chattanooga Board of Education has not maae a
decision based on race since the Supreme Court decision in
1955 without — other than the only exceptions with regard to
the assignment of faculty. We will so stipulate and there
need be no testimony on this point, because race has not been
Taylor - Cross
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a part of any decision made by this School Board.
Taylor - Cross 217
,
Board
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WILLIAMS: Does that include that the School
that the — well.
MR. WITT: Vfe have not made a decision based
8
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upon race since 1966. That's —
MR. WILLIAMSi (Interposing) You said 1955.
MR. WITT: I was mistaken.
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MR. WILLIAMS: What?
MR. WITT: This has been a de facto desegregation
since 1966.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
q In 1966, what did you do to integrate the school
system, if anything?
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A You are asking me a question?
Q Yes.
A 1966 is just a year in my thinking.
Q All right. In 1966, every school that was
substantially segregated, in 1962, remained substantially
segregated, didn't it?
A It's been a gradual in some areas. Some have
flopped over so —
Q (Interposing) By flopped over, you mean schools
like Avondale which changed from all black to white I mean.
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Taylor - Cross 23a
all white to all black?
A That's true.
Q But, with the exception of that kind of change,
every school which remained substantially — which had been
segregated in 1962, remained substantially segregated one way
or the other, didn't it?
A Not every one.
Q Mell, will you name one? Will you take Exhibit
3 and name one school which had changed from substantially
segregation to substantially integration between 1962 and '63?
MR. WILLIAMSt I wonder if the Clerk would hand
Uis Honor Exhibit 3, which is this document. It has a blue
back on it.
Yes, sir, the October 16, 1970, statistical report.
BY MR. WILLIAMSi
Q Mister — let's begin with page 1A of two of
pupil report number two. Pupil report number two, page LA.
Let’s take Howard High School, the very first school. Howard
School, grades 1 to 12.
A Howard has not.
Q That's — let's just take the easy way. That was
originally an all black school with 3,151 blacks and no whites,
wasn’t it, in *62-63?
A That's right.
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Taylor - Cross 239
q All right, air. Mow, lot’s take every year there
after. The next year it atill had no white*. Mext year,
still no whites. Mext year, three whites, and in ’66 — well,
he said ' 66.
At the end of the *66 school year, *65-66 school
year, it had three whites, and it began the next year with
no whites.
Nov, that school remained substantially segregated,
didn’t it?
A Yeah.
Q All right. Now, then. Riverside. It says here
it opened in 1962-63. That school had been open before that,
hadn’t it? That was the old white high school that they
handed down to the blacks, wasn’t it? Old City High School?
A City High was housed in that building, that’s
correct.
q Referring over — well, no, sir, that building
was built for white children, wasn't it?
A White children attended it when it was built.
q Did any black children attend it?
A Not in ey knowledge.
q All right, sir. Just to saake sure that we know
what we are doing here, let’s turn to — two pages over to
page 2A of 2, and it shows the schools that were formerly
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,hite and the second school that's listed on there as
Chattanooga High, grades 10 to 12, with no blacks and 1.059
whites.
D o i g that one and the same as Riverside, that
year, was that one and the sane as Riverside?
A Yes, yes.
Q so that for the year 1962-53, that Chattanooga
High that is listed on page 2A of 2, was the City High School
that's located down here in the heart of town and is now knewn
as Riverside, isn’t it?
a That's correct.
q Then the next year, *63-64, you built a brand new
high school up here in a white suburban neighborhood, didn’t
you? Isn’t that true, Mr. Taylor? Didn't —
A (Interposing) Well, the date of it —
Q (Interposing) Well, it has to be ~
A (continuing) — somewhere within that tine.
I know the exact date of it, I
0 (Inb.rp0 .in9 ) Referring back bo P*9« IX of 2,
doesn-b ib h.v. bo b. 'tJ-Si, .Inc your old high .otaool
became Riverside in *63-64?
Riverside began in '63-64, didn 't it?
A That's what my note says.
Q yes, sir. And it began — what was eeant when
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it was opened, it was simply changed from a white high school
to the black high school, wasn't it?
a Yes, the pupils —
q (Interposing) Yes, sir, the school desegregation
plan had not hit high schools at that time, had it?
A ho, sir.
q So what you did was to change this Chattanooga
High School to the black high school and move the %*»ite
children into the new white high school out in the suburbs,
didn’t you?
A The white pupils attended over there. It was a
white school.
q Well, that was built, though, in '63-64?
A Yes.
q It was opened *63-64, so that was a decision based
on race to open that, to create — to build this white high
school out here in the white suburbs, wasn't it?
A I wasn't involved at the time of the decision of
that school.
q But, to the extent that it was built in the Wilts
suburbs, it was a decision based on race, wasn’t it?
A It was a decision for the people that lived
around that.
q Y«s, sir.
Taylor - Cross
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A To go to that school.
Q And since they were white —
A (Interposing) At that time, it could change, they
could change.
q Mall, you didn't build, of course, this was
changing down here in the heart of town, toe, wasn't it; but
didn't build any new high schools down here, did you? You
didn't build a new high school down here in the heart of town,
did you?
A No.
q All right. Mali, now, let's go back to Riverside
High, this — so to sake sure there's no question in the
record about it.
In this Exhibit 3, going back to page 2A of 2,
although you don't show it, Chattanooga High School for '62-63
actually means this Riverside High School beforv you changed
it to a black school and then Chattanooga High School for
•63-64 was in an entirely different building? It was in this
new building that you built in North Chattanooga?
A Yeah.
q That's right. Incidentally, you happen to know
how much was paid for that new building?
A No, sir, I don't.
q All right. Now, if we can go back to Riverside
Taylor - Cross 242
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Taylor - Cross 243
when it opened in '63-64, although there has been 1,059 whites
attending at the year before, it opened with no whites and 1,694
blacks the year it was changed to a black school, didn't it?
A Yes, when it was changed. Whites wasn't eligible
to go there.
0 All right, sir.
A By our policy at that time.
Q When did whites become eligible to go there, in
1966?
A '65, *66, *67.
Q '66-67? All right, sir. Let's follow it along.
'63-64 opened with no whites. Next year no whites. Next year
no whites, and 1966-67, 1,989 blacks and 2 whites.
So, Riverside, after it was handed down to the
black people as a segregated school remained substantially
segregated in 1966, didn't it?
a That's correct.
Q And, incidentally, while we are on that, it has
been said here that there were no zones between the — there
were no zones in this high school area. There were zones
established between Riverside and Howard. We don't have the
high school map here, but Riverside was located up here some
where, and Howard down here, and they are both black high
schools. There were zones established for them, weren't there?
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A Temporary zones, that's correct.
Q Temporary zones for them, but no zones for the
white students, for Chattanooga High School and Brainerd,
that’s true, isn't it?
Taylor - Cross 244
A That's correct.
U All right, sir. Now, then, going back to 1A of
2, let's take Alton Park, the next school, '62-63, it had 818
blacks and no whites, and then the next year, no whites; the
next year, no whites; the next year, no whites; and in '66,
no whites.
So, that wasn't just substantially, that remained
absolutely segregated for those four years, didn't it?
A That's correct.
Q All right, sir. The next one. Orchard Knob,
started with 762 blacks, no whites; and then following along
the next year, no whites; the next, no whites; the next, no
whites; and the payoff year, still no whiter, totally segregate
that's correct, ier.'t it?
All right. East Pifth, same story. First year,
no whites; next, one white; the next, 41 whites; the next,
32 whites, and it ended up — it started up with 1,039 blacks
and no whites and ended up in 1966 with 610 blacks and 24 white
So, that school remained substantially segregated,
too, did it not?
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Taylor - Cross 245
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
<j Didn't it, Mr. Taylor?
A I would say so, it had more desegregation than
the other.
Q More desegregation? It had less than 5 percent
desegregation, didn't it, if you figure the percentage of
whites to blacks in the school?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
Q Did it not, sir?
A I haven't made the calculation, but if you made
it, I assume 5 percent is it.
q Now, Clara Carpenter, in 1962-63, started out with
501 whites and no blacks; and that year, as you have indicated
previously, there were some whites living there, but they were
bused out of the area.
And then, the next year, it was closed. So, in
1966, it still remained segregated because there was — wasn't
open, that's correct, isn't it?
A Tes, it was East Fifth at those years where there
wasn't any schools, all the same cone.
q So, if you look at East Fifth — oh, I see.
So, maybe that's where the 24 white children got into East
Fifth, is that right? Some of those white children who lived
in the Carpenter tone?
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A I don't know what sons they lived in.
Q All right, sir. Wall, let's take the next one,
Davenport. Now, of course, all of these schools are down here
in this area, are they not, in —
A (Interposing) Yeah.
<J In the heart of town? Davenport started out with
394 whites and no blades, and then the next year, 3 whites;
next year, 7 whites; next year, 14, and ended up in 1966-67
with 308 blacks and 16 whites.
So, that remained substantially segregated, too.
Taylor - Cross 246
didn't it, sir?
n A Yes.
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U All right, sir. Now, then, Donaldson, Calvin
Donaldson started out with 562 blacks and no whites. No
whites the next year; the next, the next, and the next year
ending up in 1966 still with no whites. Totally segregated
black school, that's true, isn't it?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
Q Yes, sir. Mow, the next one, Henry. Henry
started out with 328 trfiites and no blacks. I mean, 328 blacks
and no whites, and ended up all along the way with no whites
in 1966, still segregated, right?
A Correct.
Q Three hundred thirty-six blacks and no whites.
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Orchard started out with 1,189 blacks and
no whites, and the next year, no whites; the next, no whites,-
next, no whites, and in the year 1966, Orchard Knob had 1,033
blacks and no whites, totally segregated, right?
A Right.
Taylor - Cross *47
q That's correct?
A Yes, sir.
q All right. I will just go down the line. Piney
Woods, open, brand new, 1544-65, with 370 blacks and no whites
Let's show His Honor that Piney Woods.
A "A" down there.
Q “A"?
Yes, sir. A brand new one built In the second
year of pupil desegregation — third year, open the third
year, open as a segregated school, and where is that school
located with reference to the Easts Wheeler Housing Project?
A North of Emaa Wheeler.
q Across the street? And what is the complexion
of that housing project, black or white?
A It's predominantly black.
q You say predominantly black? Three hundred
thirty—eight blacks and two whites. Isn't that what it has?
Do you have the statistics on the housing project?
A It has, I know — not on the housing project. I
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just —
Q (Interposing) Did you know that there are only
two whites in that housing project?
A Didn’t know that. I knew it had four children
and one child we had, so it was predcainantly that*
Q But a decision was made by the Board of Education
to locate Piney Woods there to serve that housing project,
wasn't it?
A It serves the children there in that area, yes, suj,
I would say that. I didn’t have anything to do with it, but -
Q (interposing) All right, sir. And, that kept
the situation no white, and in 1966-47, that had 365 black,
and no whites, that’s correct, isn’t it?
A Correct.
Q go — and, to the extent, of course, you knew that
the Emma Wheeler Homes was a predominantly black housing
project, didn’t you, Mr. Taylor?
A That’s true.
q The Board knew that?
A Didn't know it would stay that way. It can be
both ways.
Q Had it been - y o u didn't know that it would stay
that way in 1963-64?
A This is *64.
248
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q You hadn't had any custom at that time of black-wh
housing projects become suddenly integrated, had you?
A MO.
q All right, sir. So that to the extent that that
school was located across from that black housing project,
that's sort of like Chattanooga High up there that that was
the decision based on race to locate that housing project in
that area, wasn't it?
A I would say —
q (Interposing) I mean, that school.
A I would say decision to have the pupils in that
facility there.
q And — well, since they knew that they were black,
they were providing it for them, weren't thay?
A I would say they would know they were black,
because, as I said before.
q You said what?
A I am sure that the Board knew that it was black
children there.
q Yes, sir.
A But, the decision to build a building because
black children — because the children live there.
q But, if they — they could have located that
school — Clifton Hills s predominantly white school?
Taylor - Cross
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A Yes.
Q All right, sir. That school could have been
located closer to Clifton Hills, couldn't it?
A It could have been, but transportation another
way. That, you see, that down through there, that's a flooded
area, so forth, and —
U
new?
(Interposing) You sure that's a flooded area
A That white —
Q (Interposing) You sure that's a flooded area?
A
area.
I don't know what changes from being a flooded
Q Well, is Hamill Road flooded?
A Where that housing project was. Hawill Road, I
assume, goes across there. I can't read the name.
U Hamill Road and Hooker?
A Hooker goes across. Hooker, but walking to Clifton
Hills would have been about three miles; but —
Q (Interposing) Walking to Clifton Hills would be
three miles?
A If you go down the road, go the way you can go.
Q Wait a minute now. The scale of this map is one
exile. three-and-a-half inches. You are sure that would be
three miles from "A" to 8?
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A Travel across the creek there, two-and-a-half to
three.
q why, don't you know that you can visually inspect
that and see it isn't more than a stile and a quarter, a tail,
and a half, sir?
A I think it's a little further than that.
q But, in any event, if the new school had been
located closer to Clifton Hills or had perhaps been made an
annex to an addition to Clifton Hills, then that would have
furthered integration in that area, wouldn't it?
A Yes, it would, just had one elementary school
there to get the job done.
q Yes, sir. And didn't you say earlier, didn't
you say earlier, sir, that it's your belief that larger
elementary schools tend to provide a better education?
A Made a statement somewhere between five hundred
and six hundred, if I remember correctly, would be my own
judgment of the optimum size for elementary schools. Believe
that's what the record will state.
q All right, sir. Let's continue on.
The next school on page 1A of 2 is Smith with bOl
blacks and no whites when you began integration. The next yeai#*
you had no whites. The next year, no whites; the next, no
whites; and in 1966, 405 blacks and no white*?
Taylor - Cross
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Taylor - Cross 252
A Correct.
q Trotter School, 555 blades and no whites in '62-
63. No whites for any of the years in between, and you wind
up in '66 with 388 blacks and no whites.
A Correct.
q Sanderson School, you start out in 1962-63 with
145 blacks and no whites. No whites the next year. The next
year you had three whites and then you lost them the following
year and you ended up in 1966-67 with 154 blacks and no whites.
A Correct.
q That's correct, isn't it? Then, Spears Avenue
99 blacks and no whites in '62-63. The next year, no whites,
the next year, no whitesj the next year, no whites; and then
in 1966, you adopt the custom that we are running into more
and more, closing the black schools. You closed Spears Avenue
in '66, didn't you?
A Correct.
q yes. And then Chattanooga Avenue started out in
'62-63 with 524 blacks, no whites, and no whites for the next
ensuing year and then it wound up closed in *65-66, that's
correct, isn't it?
A Correct.
q Fort Cheatham started out in '62-63 with 155 blackii
and no whites. No whites the next year, and then the freeway
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closed it down in 1964-65, sir?
A Yes, sir.
q Hist's the freeway you put down here through the
black neighborhoods, as usual. Where was this Port Cheatham,
what nunber is it?
A Believe it's 14, 15.
q Fifteen; yes, and that's —
A (Interposing) Oh, no.
0 Right here. It wound up closed.
Park Place started out with 247 blacks and no
whites, and you closed it the very next year. That was up
here near Riverside, wasn’t it?
A It's in the Smith zone, that's 23.
q Twenty-three?
A No, that's not the right one, over. I can't see
the number.
q Well, Park Place. You don't have it on here, I
Taylor - Cross 253
guess
A
0
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Q
look at Smith’s, though.
Look for Smith?
Twenty-nine.
All right.
Over here in the center of town.
Center of town?
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A Go north. That’s it.
q It was a black school that served that area?
A It was in that sons.
q So, you closed it down so the result is if you
look at 1966-67, the year that Mr. Witt says that Chattanooga
started out with de facto desegregation, Chattanooga with
regard to all of its black schools was in almost exactly the
same condition it was in in 1962-63, wasn't it?
If you look at the figures here in 1962-63, it
had eleven thousand — looking at the totals at the bottom —
it had 11,692 black children in — and in 19 all-black schools
with no whites; and then, in 1966-67, the year that Mr. Witt
says they completed desegregation under this plan, it had
11,071 blacks and 42 whites in 15 all-black schools, 4 other
black schools having been closed, is that correct?
A That is correct.
q Is it not? All right.
And that's the de facto desegregation — segrega
tion that ws are talking about.
How, let's go to 2A of 2.
Oh, before we do that, though, before we do that,
let's turn to IB of 2 and take a look at the way they are
right now nearly ten years later; and without going over tin*
individual schools, they could be seen — in the right-hand
Taylor - Cross
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Taylor - Cross 25*
column there — we still have, one, Howard; two, Donaldson;
three, Henry; four, Trotter — that are all black.
Me still have Riverside with one white and 1,195
blacks; Piney Woods with one white and 307 blacks. And,
incidentally, that was built for segregation; and then. Smith,
one white and 297 blacks, total of 9,223 blacks in these
15 all-black schools, in these 15 formerly black schools with
a total of only 48 whites. That's true?
A That's right.
g All right. Mow, going to 2a , going to 2A of 2,
then beginning with Brainerd High School, it starts out in '62-|63
with no blacks and 1,373 whites; and then the next, next, and
next year, no blacks at all and ends up in 1964-47 with 26
blacks and 1,085 whites, still substantially segregated, right!
A It was the first year — it was eligible under our
plan to be desegregated.
q All right. Chattanooga High School the first
year it was what is actually now Riverside, it had no whites —
no blacks and 1,373 whites. And then the next year the new
white high school opened with no blacks and 1,139 whites. And
well, I see whet you mean with regard to tha high schools that
are — *66-67 was the first year for them.
A For the plan.
g All right. But, we still had only 35 blacks and
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Taylor - Cross
4 ariinard Kirkman in *66-67, only on- black
1 , 2 2 5 whiter in Brainerd. sinuww.
and 1,057 white*.
so*, t h o ~ «*ool. -or. * f r M d “
of choice, weren't they?
, . ,„v h(l school he wanted to goTea. Child could pick hie scnoo*A
Well, would you .ay that your freedo. of choice
had been effective or ineffective in ter»* of actua
eliminating aggregation in the achoola in those three achools?
limited. It did improve A First year was rather iimx*e«.
the other three years.
Q M l right. M U . l . f -“ IP — « “ P*9* 28 °f
2. it — - Uttlo. Did it - * — -
. M i l hsd 0.1. 1.4 *»!.<*. 1. - - 1. 1 - — • *
„ . i n « whit., in Chsttsnooga High, and 12* bl«*»141 blacks to 1,29« wn
to 1,089 whites in Kirkman Tech, i* that correct?
A That's correct.
, K1,-k to white students Q what is the percentage of black
in this school system?
A pifty-fi*ty.
. m u you do not v#iryQ So that even as of now you w
substantial integration in the.. t h r ~ *>r~rlY U l - h i t .
M g h schools, do you. oon.ld.rln, th. proportion o, hlsoh to
white students?
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Taylor - Cross 257
A They rim, some of them, a little more than 10
percent, about 10 percent, 10 to 13.
q About 10 percent; and the progress over the years
since 1966 has been very slaw, hasn't it?
If you look at the *67-68 in those three schools,
1968-69, 1969-70, the progress has been very gradual and very
slaw?
A The percentage of increase each year would be
a — close to 75 percent increase each year.
Q All right, sir. Well, now, let's look -- let's
go back to page 2A of 2 and look at some of the schools which
were desegregated earlier in 1966.
Brainerd Junior High School began in 1962-63 with
no blacks and 623 whites. It had no blacks the next year;
the next year, it had 7 blacks in '65-66, and wound up in
*66-67 with only 33 blacks to 649 whites. That's correct?
A That's correct.
q Dalewood opened brand new in 1963-64 with no blacks
and 467 whites. Incidentally, where is that Dalewood?
A It would be on the other map.
q On the other map?
A Over there, junior high on that side.
0 Yes, sir.
A It's three.
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Q Three?
A I believe that's figure three.
q Junior high school covers a big area here, and
you built that in 1963 out here in an area that is all white,
isn’t it? This area is 90 to 100 percent white, isn't it,
in general?
A It's not that large a percentage.
q Isn't — isn't this all white, this ridgeside,
this little incorporated town?
A I can't answer about that.
Q You don't know that that's all \»hite, 100 percent?
A Ho.
q Do they send children to the Chattanooga schools?
A Not to ay knowledge. I don't know where they
send their children.
g They don't send any to this junior high school
here?
A I do not know where those children go to school.
q well, then, in any event, that is in a predominant]
white area, that Dalewood, isn't it?
A It's a fairly mixed community, the total area of
Dalewood zone.
Q We will see, we will see. In any event, Dalewood
had no whites the next year, 9 whites the next, and wound up
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in 1966-67 with 28 blacks and 579 whites less than — less than
10 percent, didn't they?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
Q Less than 10 percent blacks, is that correct?
A Yes.
q East Lake started out the first year with no
blacks and 637 whites. No whites any of the following years
and ended up in *66-67 with no whites and - no blacks and
621 whites?
A Right.
q All right, sir. Eastside started with no blacks,
n o blacks any of the succeeding years till '65-66. You had
27 blacks, and ended up in 1966-67 with 91 blacks and 618
whites, is that right?
A Correct.
q All right, sir. Hardy started out with no blacks
and 611 whites. No blacks the succeeding years until *65-66
when it got 99 blacks; and in 1966-67, it had 271 blacks and
356 whites. Hardy was substantially integrated I would
you say?
A If you use that term, that's what it is. I mean,
substantially, I don't know what your definition is.
q Black children and white children were in the
schools according to their approximate projortion in the
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Taylor - Cross 260
school system?
A Well, that's pretty well integrated, I'd say.
Q All right, sir. Now, long began with one black and
454 whites. The next year, had 3 blacks; the next year, no
blacks; the next year, 5 blacks; the next year, 12 blacks
along with 465 whites.
So, would you say that that school is not
substantially integrated?
a That's correct.
q All right, sir. Now, then. Lookout started with
no blacks and 186 whites; and then no blacks, no blacks the
next two years; and then 37 blacks, ib *65—66 and total of
54 blacks to 156 whites in 1966.
Well, I suppose that would be on the borderline,
wouldn't it, as to whether that's integrates or not? Would
you say so. Hr. Taylor?
A I’d say it's integrated.
q All right, sir. Now, then, that's two of them.
Now, North Chattanooga Junior High School started
out with no blacks in '62-63; no blacks the two succeeding
years; 12 blacks the third year, and in '6 6 , it had only 36
blacks with 581 whites, leas than 10 percent.
So, that was not substantially integrated, then,
was it?
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A If 50 percent — certainly not.
Q All right, sir. Now, Aamicola, that's one we
took in with annexation.
Avondale started out in '62-63 with no blacks and
317 whites, and by '66-67, it had reversed itself and had 641
blacks and 18 whites, didn't it?
A Correct.
THE COURT: We are down to elementary?
MR. WILLIAMS* Yes, sir, down to elementary.
Taylor - Cross 2b1
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
q Now, Barger started out with no blacks and 561
whites; and then the next three — well, all the succeeding
years, wound up in 1966 and for each of the years in between
with no blacks and in the '66-67 year, 518 whites, that's
correct?
A Correct.
Q Now, that school was built next to a white housing
project. wasn't it?
A Barger? No.
Q Yes.
A No, Barger is No.
U Barger?
A Yes.
Q Where is No. 2?
2 .
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Taylor Cross 262
A There.
q over here?
A Yeah.
q All right, sir. Maybe I am wrong. That's out in
the white neighborhood. I a* thinking about Mary Ann Garber,
aren't I?
A Yes, sir* yes, sir.
q All right. Mow, then, Brown started out in *62-63
with no blacks and 368 whites. The next year, had no blacks;
next year, had one black; the next year, had 2 blacks, and
then in *66-67, had 114 blacks and 288 whites.
So, I suppose you night say that one comes closer
to being substantially integrated?
A Yes.
q where is that located? That's up here across the
river, isn't it?
A Four.
q In here?
A Yeah.
q well, the way it got those blacks, though, in
•66-67 was your closure of this Spears School, though, wasn't
it?
A That's correct.
q You could have closed Spears School back in 1962-6^,
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Taylor - Cross 263
couldn’t you?
A Overcrowded conditions.
q Yes, I see. All right, sir. So, tnat school
closing can be used to integrate the school system, can't it?
School consolidations and school closing?
A I'd say it would have that effect.
q Yes; all right, air. Now, then, Cedar Hill started
out in '62-63 with no whites — no blacks and 171 whites. It
never had any blacks in any of the aucceedii g years and wound
up in *66-67 with no whites and 2 1 0 blacks, totally segrega
ted .
THE COURT: I believe you have those figures
reversed, do you not?
MR. WILLIAMS: Did I say no whites? I should
have said no blacks, if Your Honor please.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WILLIAMS;
q No blacks and 210 whites. And that's down here,
isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
q Down here? And the School Board says that it was
enforcing these zone lines. At the time you were enforcing
the zone lines, you were not permitting free transfers, were
you?
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A NO.
q All right, sir. Bast Laks — rathsr Bsst — no,
I skipped Clifton Hills. That's No. 8 hare, isn't it? That
Juf
started out with no whites and — no blacks and 496 whites in
•62-63.
And in the next three years had no blacks and
wound up in *66-67 with 11 blacks and 518 whites, still
substantially segregated, right?
A Tes.
q All right, sir. And then Bast Chattanooga, No.
11, where is that. Mister —
A (Interposing) Upper, top.
Q All right, sir. East Chattanooga, No. 11, started
out with no blacks and 484 whites. Three blacks the next
year, 20 the next, 21 the next, 23, and wound up in *66-67 with
23 blacks and 465 whites. That's true, isn't it?
A Yes.
q And Bast Lake, which is No. 14?
A Down in the corner.
q Yes. Started out with no blacks and 696 whites;
and the next ensuing three years, no blacks at all and wound
up in 1966-67 with still — with no blacks and 601 whites?
A Bight•
q All right, sir. Eastdale — Bastdale, Mo. 12?
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A Yes, sir.
q up bars, started out with one black, and that oust
have been one of the first 16, is that right?
A That's correct.
q Started out with one black and 484 whites in the
first year of integration. The next year, had 20 blacks;
next year, 37; the next, 51, and wound up in '66-67 with 50
blacks and 444 whites, just over 1 0 percent, not very sub
stantial in terms of the proportion of black children in the
system, is it?
A Mot with the system.
q All right, sir. Mow, then, Garber started out
and Garber, No. 16, and that's what was up here.
Barger started out as a little white sone here
with no blacks and 338 whites in '62-63 and had no whites —
no blacks, rather, for any of the succeeding years until
1966-67 when it wound up with one white and 319 blacks in this
little, tiny zone. That's true, isn't it?
a That’s correct.
0 wouldn’t you say that that zone was carved around
that white population there?
A The housing project there, yes.
q Tas, was a white housing project there. What was
the name of that project?
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A Boone-Hysinger.
Q Boone-llysinger housing project? And, you may not
know these. I think we can bring it out later by other proof,
but did you know that that had — that that was built as an
all-white project?
A NO.
Q Well, it wasn't — well, it was an all-white —
A
white.
(Interposing) Yes, it was all white pupils, all
Q It's not any more? There's a little integration
there now; but this school next to it. No. 11, what was No.
4, Brown?
A Mo. 4?
Q No, No. 1.
A Avondale.
Q Avondale. Ihere were lots of blacks in that area,
weren’t there?
A Yeah.
Q Avondale was very close to this school, wasn't it,
the Garber School?
1 A Yeah.
u That would have been a good opportunity for pairing
wouldn't it, of schools, if you wanted to pair?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
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Taylor - Cross 267
Pair s q m , but size capacity wasn't about twice as
big as the other.
q Yes, but that doesn't necessarily prevent pairing
because you can utilize any number of grades in the particular
school building, can't you, Mr. Taylor?
A
Q
it?
A
Q
(Witness moves head up and down.)
But, that was not done by the School Board, was
Mo, sir.
All right, sir. Now, then, let's take the next
one, Glenwood, which is out here somewhat, No. 17. That startod
out with 19 blacks and 175 whites in the first year of integra
tion and then it reversed. By 1966-67, it had 130 blacks and
28 whites.
That was the school that was connected with this
Clara Carpenter, wasn't it?
A Yeah.
q So, you still had substantial segregation albeit
reversed segregation in that school, didn't you, Mr. Taylor?
A Yes.
Q Then the Hemlock, No. 18, right here in the heart
of — started out with no whites — no blacks and 324 whites.
No blacks the next; 19 the next; 37 the next; and wound up in
*66-67 with 54 blacks and 242 whites.
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Taylor - Cross
268
Highland Park. Where is that located?
A Right north of Hemlock.
Q All right, sir. Highland Park startnd out with
no blacks and 415 whit... Ho blacks the next, no black, the
next; no blacks the next year; and wound up in -66-67 still all
white, no blacks, and 404 white, right here in this little -
and you say that - you say that it would take sec- stretching
and .<x». odd-shaped zone, in order to integrate. Did you say
that earlier, that it night take see- stretching of rones to
integrate by zone lines?
A Yeah, I said something to that effect.
Q would you say this pistol-shaped rone here in the
Highland Park are. i. kind of an odd kind of a ab.pe7
R I would say you've got two school, there and if yo
drew a line, .ay, they were egual .ire and equal capacity, the
natural place for the line to draw would be a p e d i c u l a r
connected with two centers that-, pretty clo.e with the
streets the way it-s drawn across that.
0 But, if you paired some of these school., you
oould integrate with effect, couldn't you. Take, for instance
this Orchard Knob School. Now, that's the big black
that was overcrowded, wasn't it?
A it had a large enrollment.
Q n o swamp between that and Highland Park, i. there?
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1 Taylor Cross 269
2 A
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« A
There Is s busy thoroughfare, McCallie Avenue,
well —
(Interposing) That line —
(Interposing) There's avenues all over town.
So s m of them are traveled a little more than
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others.
q But, those two schools would be a natural for
pairing, wouldn't they, if you wanted to really integrate,
wouldn't they, Mr. Taylor?
A They are adjacent schools.
q Yes. Now, then, the next one. Missionary Ridge.
That's up here in the snake-shaped sons. That started out
with 5 blacks and 380 whites the first year and then 5 — thos«
5 blacks stayed there the second? they dropped to 4 the third?
they went back to 5 the fourth? and in 1966-67, it had just
one more black, 6 , a total of 6 blacks and 358 whites?
A Correct.
q not very — less than — well, not much more than
1 percent integration. You agree, Mr. Taylor?
A Agreed, 6 blacks and 358 whites.
q Not very substantial integration?
A That's right, that's right.
q Normal Park, No. 24, and that's up here,, isn't it?
A That's right.
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Taylor - Cross 270
q That started — that started out with no blacks
and 552 whites. No blacks the next; no blacks the next; no
blacks the next; and still in 1966-67, no blacks up here in
northeast Chattanooga in Normal Park, total segregation.
Oak Grove, where is that located, 257
^ Go on up a little now. Back vest. That*s it.
q Yes. Now, then, in the south central part of town,
first year, no blacks, 444 whites; next year, 42 blacks; next,
77; next, 72; and the next, 71 blacks and 354 whites. Not
very substantial considering the proportion of blacks in the
system, would you agree?
A I ’d say it has a substantial number.
q Has a substantial number of blacks, but considering
their proportion in the school population, that’s not very
substantial integration, is it?
A I would say counting on 50-50, that it's not 50-50
there.
q It’s not near 50-50, is it?
All right, sir. Now, Pineville. Is Pineville
on here or is that —
A (Interposing) Pineville.
q That's the new one you took in?
A one on that map. It’s on that snake over here on
the side.
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Q All right, sir.
A There it is, "C."
Q Pineville is "C"? Well, you didn't have it then?
A Mo.
Q All right. Ridgedale, No. 27, w h e r e i* it?
A Almost —
Q (Interposing) Right here? All right. Ridgedale
started out with no whites and 344 blackt. The next year#
7 blacks — I mean# no blacks and 344 whites; next year, 7
blacks; next, 46; next# 45; and ended up with 76 blacks and
339 whites, about like Oak Grove?
A Similar, yes.
q Kind of mixed a little but not very much.
RiVermont is the new one, isn't it?
A Tea, sir.
0 But, incidentally, both RiVermont and Pineville
are both all white, aren't they?
A Yes, sir; yes, sir.
q st. Elmo down here, is that right7
A That's right, yea.
q Started out with 6 blacks and 338 whites; 9 blacks
the next year; 15 the next; and still has only 18 blacks with
346 whites as of the ' 6 6 school year?
A (witness moves head up and down.)
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Taylor - Cross 272
q Sunnyside, 32, started with 14 blacks the first
year of integration, 309 whites; 38 blacks <:he next, 70 the
next; 72 the next; and still only 80 blacks and 286 whites in
the *66-67 school year.
Woodmore — Woodmore, No. 34, started with no
blacks, 562 whites. No blacks any of the years in between,
and in '66-67, still had no blacks and 538 whites.
THE COURTt Where is Woodmore?
MR. WILLIAMS: That's over here by the airport.
Your Honor.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
q Incidentally, you did a little zone changing in
Woodmore to keep it all white, too, didn't you?
A No, air.
q Well, was there a sons change between Sunnyside
and WOodraore?
A Not to ny knowledge.
q You didn't testify on direct examination that
there was?
A I testified one year there was a zone change from
Woodmore to Eastdale, and than this given year here approxi
mately the same area was zoned back to Woodmore and based on
the capacity of those two plants, Woodmore and Kastdale,
Eastdale and —
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1 Taylor - Cross 273
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q (Interposing) That had nothing — d n w is East*
dale located?
A Right beside, you see that?
q Thirty?
A Eastdale is 12, I believe. Eastdale is 12 and
what year that sone
two zones —
q (Interposing) You r
change was made?
Here it is, *63-64.
A *63-64.
q woodnore to Eastdale changed to *63-64. Now, you
took these — this is Woodmore and this is Eastdale.
You took these children out of Woodworm and put
them in Eastdale?
A Eastdale that given year.
0 And you say that those were not black children?
A That's right. I don't know the race of them,
but I'd almost — there wasn't any blacks there at that spot
to ray knowledge.
q was Eastdale — is a formerly white —
A (Interposing) That's correct.
q x# it just an accident that in the '64—65 school
year--Eastdale picked up 37 blacks in '63-64, and that Eastdale
picked up 20 blacks in *63-64? In 1962-63, Eastdale had only
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274Taylor - Croaa
one black. Then It picked up 20 blacks in 1SSJ-6*. and picked
up 17 acre in *64-65.
A But they wasn't cowing fro* this section. They
were moving into the Pootwood Heights ares.
q you say there are no blades living in that area
at all?
A I would say they are living — now some may be,
but at that tine, to -y knowledge, wasn't a black peraon. It
was all whit, because of the capacity and the capacity at
wood-ore thi. year, and they -ere closer to Wood-ore and the
proxi— ity and convenience to the parent., U »y ~ r « aoned back
to wood-ore this given year, and I think there', ease black
people and white children xoned.
u That's right. Too .onad the black children out
of this area into Bastdala and then you d*°id*d -
A (Interposing) I - denying the - .onlng black
into Eastdale.
Q Well, when did you sone — when did you change
the .on. back? Whan did you zona that particular portion of
real estate back into Woo<taore?
A 1971, this year.
Q it was this year?
A This year.
Q it wasn't the *69-70 year?
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Taylor - Cross 275
A *69-70 changes to *70-71 — some changeover, *70-73.
Q Is it any accident, then, that Woodmore picked up
16 black children in *69-707
A I don't know what you mean by accident. If the
people that lived in this zone were black or white and moved
into — some black went into Woodmore and Woodmore did have
more black children.
Q And it was those very same black children that
you zoned out of there in 1962-63 — rather for *63-64 that
you zoned back in there in *69 and *70, wasn’t it, Mr. Taylor?
A I am saying the best of my knowledge it was all
white people when it was first zoned.
Q Did you go out there and make a survey?
A I did not make a survey. I said to the boot of
my knowledge.
Q
about it,
A
Q
A
Hell, your knowledge is just — is your estimate
is that right7
My understanding; but I think it is.
But, you did not actually check?
I did not count each door and go and knock on
doors.
Q You don’t deny — you don't deny the figures that
show Sastdale picking up 19 blades in '63-64 and Woodmore
remaining all white and then Woodmore, which in 1968-69 had4*
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only two blacks, suddenly picking up 16 blacks when you made
this zoning change?
A I will deny that that zoning change had anything
to do with the blacks moving out of Woodmore in that year
when it was made.
Q All right, sir.
A And it did have something to do with moving blacks
into Woodmore. It was reversed from your reasoning.
Q Mell, let's just look at the totals that we have
accumulated now by going over the white schools, including
high schools on down to elementary schools.
Me find that in the ' 6 6 school — '67 school year
when your counsel says that de facto segregation began, the
school system which had started out in *62-63 in the first
year of desegregation with 46 blacks and 15,007 whites in
formerly white schools still had only 1,808 blanks and 14,242
whites in these formerly white schools. You see those figures?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that in Exhibit 3, page 3A of 2?
In the school system — the school system still at that time
had one, two, three, four, five, six, seven — all-white
schools and several of them with lees than 10 blacks in them.
That’s true, isn't it?
Well, the figures speak for themselves.
Taylor - Cross 276
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277Taylor - Cross
A m i right. I will go with what the figures are
written there.
q Now, let's go on over to 3B of this report No. 2,
and look at the situation even now. Even now, the totals
show that we still have only 3,446 blacks going to school
with 13,250 whites in these formerly all-white schools, that
is correct?
A Yes, sir.
q And when you compare those figures with the
figures for these formerly Negro schools which are quoted
which are cited just below them, the 923 — 9,223 blacks and
the 40 whites who are going to the formerly Negro schools,
you see that there is a -- that even now still exists sub
stantial segregation both of the formerly all-Negro and all-
white schools, doesn't it?
A Yeah.
q Yes. Now, then, I have just a few more q u e s tio n s .
Do you now consider urban renewal when you are establishing
schools, urban renewal projects?
A Well, we haven't established — I mean, you are
establishing attendance zones.
0 Yes.
A we haven't established any in recent years other
than the annexed areas where the school that was annexed in
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that area. In other words —
0 (Interposing) You were aware that the urban
renewal displaced large numbers of blacks in the heart of
town?
A Shifted population there. Urban renewal is a
cause and freeway construction — other factors make shifts,
that's right.
Q Did you make any effort to find out where the
blacks went?
A Well, I guess we knew where they went by their
showing up by our predictions from our principals of expected
enrollment.
g Well, of course, you knew that some of them
went to these two new housing projects that were built, didn't
you, the Wheeler Hanes and isn't there another one up here
somewhere, the George —
A (Interposing) Howard. It's three in that south
Chattanooga, Wheeler and —
Q (Interposing) This is an — almost an exclusively
black area down through here, isn't it?
Yes.
From the heart of town straight on down there?
(Witness moves head up and down.)
And you have three housing projects, black housing
Taylor - Cross 278
A
Q
A
Q
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1 Taylor - Cross 279
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projects in there, don't you?
A Three housing projects.
q You have — don't you have the McCailie, which is
down here?
A McCailie is in the three — Bell zone.
q McCailie is here?
a Yes.
q By the Bell — what two schools are by McCailie,
Bell and what?
A Donaldson.
q Donaldson? Bell's on one side and Donaldson's
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A Yes.
q Yes. All right, sir. And Wheeler was built down
here by — well, rather the Piney Woods School was built for
Wheeler?
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A Yeah.
Q How, where is the Poss —
A (Interposing) Up near Howard. You see Howard?
0 Now, Howard is No. 21?
A That's right. Right north of it, right south of
the freeway between Howard and the freeway.
q Yes. That's between Howard and the freeway? And
that is, of course, the Poss housing project is likewise an
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all-Negro project, isn’t it, or substantially?
A Yes.
q Well, all-Negro, 122 blacks and no whites?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
q Additions have been built to Howard. Have any
additions been built to Howard since that housing project was
established?
A Not to my knowledge.
q You haven’t had any additions to Howard since
1961?
A I can’t recall any. I don’t think there have been
any additions.
q All right, sir. Now, some children do ride buses
in your school system, don't they?
A You talking about ’70-*71 now?
q Yes, sir.
A The annexed areas have bus transportation.
q All right. That’s out here — out here at the
airport, this area, this area here?
A And RiVermont area.
q Is that this?
A Asuiicola area, also.
Q RiVermont area, then, a rather substantial area
of town, bus transportation is provided, isn't it?
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Taylor - Cross 281
A Pupils — it’s not a substantial number of pupils;
area-wise, it is.
Q Yea. In terms of distance, those pupils ride
great distances, don’t they, in these areas, to go to school
in the airport area, for instance. Considering the scale on
this map, that’s true, isn’t it, Mr. Taylor?
A They ride — they are more sparse. The schools
are not close together over here, and they go further and
travel further.
Q
tion?
Do you have anything to do with the bus transports-
A No, sir.
Q Do you purchase the buses?
A No, sir.
Q Have you ever had anything to do with it?
A No, sir.
0
financed?
I see. Do you know how the bus operations are
A NO.
Q You were Assistant Superintendent in Charge of
Administration and you don’t know hoe the bus operations are
financed?
A Financed from borrowed money. The source of
incase, I can’t identify that.
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1 Taylor - Cross 282
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q Well, don’t they receive State equalising funds
from the State in connection with those bus operations?
A It's a possibility sane of it that the State law
is for the County system. Whether we participate in it, I
don't have the answer to that. Hot directly to the City,
though. I know that law — still trying to get it passed to
help, but didn't do it.
q well, the fact that sons of the children must ride
buses is considered in zoning?
A The attendance available — the attendance center
for then in the annexed area, the plant there by RiVermont is
up there, is zoned for RiVermont. We had a school building
didn't have one there, and had to do something, I don't know
what.
And — but, all we're able to take care of to the
adjacent schools or school was in the area that was annexed.
q I am not hearing your last remark.
A I would say we were able to house the pupils in
adjacent zones — center semes to annexed areas wasn’t a
school in the annexed area, and ones that we had the schools
in them, we managed to be the attendance center for them.
Transportation — we did — were going to be transportation
provided for the youngsters in that area, that is correct.
q You didn't -
I
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A (Interposing) We were aware that the City govern-
ment had promised these people transportation td»en we soned
for the annexed — we were aware transportation would be
provided, that was your question, I think.
q All right. Didn't black children have to walk to
school in this Woodmore area? Didn't they have to I mean,
in the Eastdale area?
A Black and white.
0 Black and white?
A We don't —
Q (Interposing) How about the Barger area, did
children walk to school in that area?
A Black and white.
Q Black and white?
A The kindergarten might be something else, I don’t
know. They got kindergarten covering all that area out there.
I don’t know what their transportation is. The zones, one thr<
six, they provide their own transportation.
Q you have from time to time adjusted school zone
lines according to the boundaries of housing projects, haven’t
you?
A Adjusted school —
Q (Interposing) Well, maybe I will be more specific
and be helpful on that. Didn't you say that you adjusted the
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A Tea, sir.
q Couldn't those children have 90ns to Piney Woods?
A Reason we gave, been fax worse to go to Piney
Woods from where they are located than it would be to even
Cedar Hills, because they went around out to the street and
Rossville Boulevard.
q Well, of course, at that time when you made that
zone change, both these schools had no black children at all.
That zone change didn't change integration at all, did it?
A I believe not.
q All right.
A HO.
q As a matter of fact, virtually none of your zone
changes made any substantial change in integration, did they?
You have already conceded that.
A HO, I haven't conceded. The result might have
changed the mixture number. We said we didn't make them
because of race.
Q You didn't do it with that motivation?
A That's what we said.
q All right. One way or the other, either to increai
or decrease integration, is that correct?
«■
A Yes.
q By yes you mean yes you did not make it with a
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view to increase or decrease one way or the other?
A is that race wasn't the prise sever in eating the
zone change.
q All right. But here was an opportunity tdiexe you
could have, instead of changing — was this ~ you said this
was a population shift here?
A About 5 pupils living out near Roseville Boulevard
that had — see, looks like a huge area where they are, but
it was a snail section. And, live near Roseville Boulevard,
and they had to go around.
q where is Roeeville Boulevard, this thing that goes
up here?
A Teah.
q North and south?
A Tes.
q All right.
A see, that's a swaapy area between that one and
Clifton Hills School.
q But they could have — they could have, however,
been routed over to the Pinsy woods School, couldn't they?
It would have been just as close or closer, wouldn't it?
A I don't know whether Piney woods was opsn that
year, for that reason, but that wouldn't be the noet practical
distribution of ths children, I'd say, that part of it, but
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q You didn’t oonsidci it anyway,
though, did you?
A It uasn't ooasidarsd as far as ay knowledge is
concerned. Somebody night have considered it.
q How, you nentioned certain pilot projects, one
of those was the Clara Carpenter situation. Clara Carpenter-
East Fifth situation was a pilot project therein you got
government money?
A The middle school, what you have reference to?
Yes.
Yes, sir, that was a pilot —
(Interposing) Did you ever initiate any pilot
Q
A
Q
projects in shite schools or shite neighborhoods?
A Hell, when Clifton Bills was completely open
school, had any partitions, non-graded type of thing.
q oh, but that was an improvement of the school
building and its techniques, wasn't it?
A Pilot type of instruction program. I thought
that's what you had reference to, instruction program.
q you say open school, what you mean is that
the facility was without permanent partition?
A That type of thing.
q This m o d e m concept where they have a big open
speoe sort of like a country home and then you can partition
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it off s by way you want it, tailor-make it. That’s what you
are talking about?
A Of Clifton Hills.
0 That's what you had out in the white school. What
was this pilot project in Clara Carpenter?
A Briefly stated, as far as the students one through
four, that', whan v. re-opaned Clara - Clara c e n t e r , for
grades one through four, five through eight vent to Bast Fifth
School.
Q All right.
A Grades nine through twelve went to Riverside that
was in that area.
Q That's in this area right in here somewhere?
A Yes, sir.
Q That was begun in *66-67 you said? Well, let's
look at that.
A i said I didn't think so, but I have
THE COURT; (Interposing) Let's take about a
15-minute recess, then.
(Thereupon, a recess was taken.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS;
q Let's g o to th. year '*4-65. There a change
involving Avondale in vhlch you transferred s o b. children
from Avondale to Orchard Knob.
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A That was s correction over there. That wes place
that was left void in the — that was non-zoned that was on
that side.
Q You said in your direct examination that Avondale
fed the Hardy Junior High?
A That's correct.
Q Were there any white children at all involved in
this change?
A Best of ny knowledge, it wasn't any white children.
Q All right. That change — was that change made
with the effect of keeping white children out of Orchard Knob
Junior High?
A Ho, sir.
Q It was not?
A No. The change was made there to be able to
house the pupils that were in the Avondale area and Avondale
School.
Q Wasn't Orchard Knob Junior High segregated at
that time?
A This elementary change hare now at this tins.
Q This wss —
A (Interposing) The next year the junior high was
changed, not the year following this one.
Q I am on tbs wrong map.
Taylor - Cross 289
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Taylor Cross 290
A I bailors that would bs tha right asp.
Q This is tha right asp?
A Yas. Ona year latar than this change.
Q Yas, all right. And what was tha changa hara?
Would you go over that again for aa, plaasa? X got confusad
on ay notas.
A You naad to be saaing this ona at tha saaa tiaa.
In other words, tha Avondale Elementary School was becoming
overcrowded so —
Q (Interposing) That's this?
A That's sons one. And Orchard Knob Elementary
could house thea, so we aada tha change tha previous year,
we could not make tha changa — corresponding change to keep
the area — feeder school to s junior high co-terminus.
THE COURT; Co-terminus.
THE WITNESS: Because of the overcrowded condition
BY HR. WILLIAMS:
Q At where?
A At Orchard Knob. That year, '65-66, where in
*66-67 they could house the people so it was one year delayed
in making the change to make thea parallel and get thea closer
to home — I assn tha convenience of parents and children.
Q Were there any white children involved?
A To my knowledge, wasn't any white children in it.
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Taylor - Cross 291
Q All right. Nov, with regard to ths Kastdale-
Usmloct situation, '65-66, let's saa, that would be bare,
wouldn't it?
NO.
A We had a change out there near that inner city —
in the city.
q Yes. I have marked here that you areated an
optional sons.
A Now, that's in — that's based off of this one.
You need this map in elementary, and it's junior high over
there what you had reference to. Now, you have it there, I
believe.
Q Here?
A No, down in the Clifton Hi11s-Davenport —
q (Interposing) Here? Yea. Now, you created this
optional soaa so that the children who lived in this xoae
could go to Howard, East Side, Hast Lake, or East Lake, is
that correct?
A Like to start over — over here in the elementary.
That section that was zoned to number — Clifton Hills —
Clifton Hills was — had capacity to absorb that group.
Now, the lower back there, that one.
Q Yes.
A Mas zoned to Clifton Hills.
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Q TSS.
A And above the freeway that was forearly pert of
Davenport. It was aoned Clifton Hills and above the freeway
forned part of Clifton Hills, was aoned to Henlooh. That's
now — that was tha elseentary part.
q Hut the fact there were both white and black
children living in this area, weren't there?
A At that tine, the part over here that was aoned
out of Davenport to Clifton Hills was all black..
q All right. And, in Clifton Hills, they would have
gone to which — ordinarily vhich junior high school?
A Go to East Daks Junior High School.
q All right. And that's East Lake Junior High
School, n o . 4, and that is or was then substantially all-
white junior high school, wasn't it?
Taylor - Cross *92
A That's correct.
Q All right. And, well, it still is substantially
all-white junior high school? It had no blacks at all, then,
and as of 1966—47, had no black®.
So, What you were in effect doing for these black
children — I suppose they lived in this ares, didn't they?
A Yes.
q What you were doing is giving then the option of
going to all-black Howard, weren't you, sir?
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A That group in there, that is correct, option of,
in other words, formerly of that area over there on that nap
prior to this action in elenentaxy, the part east of the
freeway, east of Roseville Boulevard, was soned Bast Side Junior
High School. Part on this side was soned to Howard so previous
to this elementary action, those people had to either went
to East Side or to Howard.
q There was sows blacks over here, too?
A Ho, to ny knowledge wasn't any blacks over there,
but pupils lived there, resided there. And, it was the closest
to Bast Side, that section.
The reason, that section was bade, through the
history, was soned to Bast Side instead of Best Laks up there
all white.
q History of these black children was to go to
Howard so you gave then an option to go to Howard or to cone
down here?
A He gave then an option that, right in the heart of
it where the Cannon Street and another street there
Twenty-eighth Street join, they were sene snail distance to
three junior high schools, and those people in that area
because of — were given the opportunity to go to any of the
three high schools they wanted to go.
q Hell, of course, you have no white* at all
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294Taylor - Croaa
exercising that option to go to Uovud« did you?
A Msaltiog — not any whites.
q All right. When you had this aituatioa in 1942-43
over Clara Carpenter, have I got the first nap? No.
Over *42-43 over at Clara Carpenter, shy didn't
you give sane of those shite children an option to stay in
that Clara Carpenter then instead of busing thse out over to
Hemlock past two black schools, over to Hemlock?
A I don't have the answer to that question.
q The fact of the matter is that the School Board
has always given options for segregation but hasn't given any
options for integration?
A well, that would be option for integration what
we did there.
q But, if — let's put it another way. Let's put
it another way. If these black children in here had gone, had
fed into the high school for which they soned, they would have
gone to Bast Lake, wouldn't they? Didn't you just get through
telling the Court that?
A This new annexed area?
q They would have gone to Bast Lake, but instead of
requiring thee to go to Bast Lake, you gave them the option
of going to Howard, didn't you?
A That's right, or to Bast Side.
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q So, that was aa option for segregation rather
than integration, wasn’t it? Although it looks liks a neutral
option in terms of the enforoeeent of sone lines, it is an
option to segregate, isn't it, taking into account the actual
racial complexion of the schools involved?
A That’s true, but the history of these optional
zones, the few we have had, when we have excessive distance
they have to travel or irregular routes of travel of the
people or to avoid an overcrowded condition, we have established
optional zones.
q well, they had four alias to travel from Clara
Carpenter to Hemlock. Would you aay that was an excessive
distance as compared with this over here?
A Well, that was implementing the plan that was
ordered by the Court, this thing over here was.
q * Weren't you still inplemsnting the plan in 1956,
•55, ’65, *66, weren't you still implementing the plan?
A Think we were still implementing the plan all the
time.
Q Yes. So that then in that respect, at least,
your action was inconsistent, wasn't it?
A 1 wouldn’t say it's inconsistent.
q Well, in any event, you afforded the tdiite children
at Clara Carpenter no option to remain there, did you.
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29ft
notwithstanding the fact that they lived right in the doorway
of the school?
A To ay knowledge, we did not.
q All right, sir.
A Now, those that were in grades one thrcugh three,
went to Clara Carpenter.
q if I said Henlock, I intended to say Glenwood.
I hope you understood. No. 17 is Glenwood, not lleelock.
A Well, I didn't hear what you said. I was looking
where you pointed.
q All right, sir. Now, with regard to going back
to this pilot school situation, I an not going to dwell on
that a long tine. Wasn't the situation with regard to the
pilot school situation, with regard to the Clara Carpenter
pilot school, wasn't it that Riverside had just been taken
over by blacks and it was overcrowded and East Fifth Street
was overcrowded and you needed to alleviate that overcrowded
condition in order to keep Negroes down here in this ghetto?
So, you reopened Clara Carpenter after having
closed it in 1962-63 when you bused the whites out.
A 1 an not agreeing to what you said, I'd say no.
q Let's see if we can find out.
A You said so much I can't agree to any of it.
q All right, sir. I guess I said too nuch.
Taylor - Cross
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Taylor - Cross 297
Mhare is Riverside? Does River — doesn't River
side have a junior high school?
A That's correct.
q Right here? And, East Fifth Street is where?
A Mall, that's not shown. It's close to 7, about
two blocks up the street free 7 there.
q all right. S o o n where in this neighborhood?
A In that none of 7.
q And, Clara Carpenter is 7, so you had — you had
a situation here where in 1966-67, Riverside and Rant Fifth
Street — East Fifth Street was a what — what was it in
1966, '65-66?
A *65-66, East Fifth was grades ons through si*.
q All right. And, what was it in '66-67?
A It was grades one through si* in '66-67.
q All right. And, what was Riverside? Was there
a Riverside Junior High School?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was that?
A Seven to nine. seven through nine.
Q And, were those two schools overcrowded in 1966-671■ i
A I would say no.
1
They had — Riverside had a
corafortable group. Bad nineteen and eighty-nine in *66-67
year, you are saying?
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q Yea.
A And, it oould handle over 2,000 in the plant.
East Fifth Street had 634. It can hold almost twelve hundred
eleven hundred.
Q so, they were not o v e rcrowded at all?
A Vi*ii f East Fifth oould handle a lot nore than it
h a d_ 634 — it oould handle up to 1*100, a thousand, eleven
hundred.
q well, why was Clara Carpenter brought into it,
then?
A It's to get a grouping of the first four grades
in one plant and the second five through eight in another
plant.
q it wasn't an overcrowded proposition at all?
A Riverside was closer to high school. It did
reliev* a situation tlMra, but it wan .lacking off. Knroll-
neut at Riv.r.ld. High School banning to r.branch tro
th. p«ak enroll—M t bocauno 1,»»» in that y.ar, •«*-«?. So —
q (Interposing) All right.
A I stated before that we have people on the staff
who could explain that program to you. I an not a
Q (Interposing) Did you have anything to do with
the employment or discharge of teachers at all?
A During that period of time, I did.
298
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Taylor - Cross 299
Q Six?
A Yes, sir.
0 All right. Do you know what happened — lot's
refer to page — let's refer to report So. 2, page IB* There
were several schools closed there — several black schools,
Sanderson, for one. Do you know what happened to the black
teachers when this Sanderson was closed?
A They were reassigned to other schools in the
system unless someone retired.
Q Well —
A (Interposing) But those —
Q (Continuing) — who would have those records?
A Those records iii?!ils
Q (Interposing) Are being prepared for —
A (Continuing) — by request of your expert.
Q Okay. Fins. I will skip that.
Why had you had loss of students in the school
system?
A You eean total?
q Yes.
A 1 guess eore people Moving out than Moving in.
q You have any private, segregated aoedeeies
established here?
A I do not know the answer to his question.
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Q You don't know, you haven't heard of any?
A I just don't have the facts about it.
Q You don't know whether there are any vhite, private.
segregated academies established?
A That's correct, I do not know of the racial
composition of any schools other than these in the Chattanooga
Public Schools.
Q Are there any private schools in Chattanooga?
A Sons private schools in Chattanooga.
Q All right. Do you know tho n s s i of thoe?
A I know the naees of s o s m of thee.
Q What are they?
A McCallie School. I don't know if that's the
official nans of that. I call it McCall is. Could have anothei
name.
Q Where is that located, sir?
A It's on the west side of the slops of Missionary
Ridge. It’s near the tunnel to the NoCallie tunnels, south
of McCallie tunnels.
Q All right. Is that a grades one to twelve?
A The best of *y knowledge, grades seven through
twelve.
Q All right, sir. You know who operates that?
A I think the McCallies still operate it.
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Taylor -• Cross 301
Q All right, sir. Is there another one?
A There is Baylor School — Baylor School for Boys
or sanething.
Q (Spelling) B-a-i-l-o-r?
A (Spelling) B—a-y-l-o—r .
Q All right, sir. Where is that located?
A It's located in around the river on the road to
Signal Mountain. It's in the northern part of the area.
q All right, air. And hoe many grades are ope
by that one?
A
also.
TO my knowledge, that's seven through twelve.
Q And any others, sir?
A And there's Girls Preparatory School.
Q Where is that located?
A That's located north of the river isnwdiately
north of the river about a mile east of whore the Market
Street — the other bridge that goes across there, just east
of it, north of the river about a mile east of it.
i
Q Bow many grades is that?
A I believe that's seven through twelve, also.
Q Who operates that one?
A It's a private board, I guess, a private group.
I don't know the names of them.
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Taylor - Cross 302
Q What is the name of that school, sir?
A Girls Preparatory School.
Q That's the name of it?
A To my knowledge.
Q Mho operates the Baylor School?
A That's the same type of thing, a private group.
Have a board of directors. X don't think it's a family. Might
be, bat I don't think so.
Q Are there any others, sir?
A And some elementary — Bright School.
Q All right. Where is that one located?
A That's in north Chattanooga area over at BiVermont.
That's 1 l y s ST s
Q You know who operates that one, sir?
A Mo, it's a private group, also, X guess. X have
never heard of them. Might be somebody owns it.
Q Mho else, sir?
A There's a Sen ter School, elementary, might be one
through nine. I just don't know the grades.
Q Where is that, sir?
A I don't know the exact location. It'a sossrahere
near Oak and Central Avenue, maybe somewhere in that section.
I don't know exactly.
Q Near Oak and Central?
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A Central Avenue.
q All right, sir.
A Several others,
other.schools.
303
know. Zt would toe
Any others?
I just do not
q Do you — do you know when those schools
es tabllshed?
A (Witness noves bead frost side to side.)
q You know when sons of thee were established?
A (Witness Moves head free side to side.) They have
all been established, to ay knowledge, all of thee been
established about 25 years in Chattanooga. So, they have been
going on for a good tdiile.
q Mona of thee established since this lawsuit began?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q All right. You know of any established sinoe
this lawsuit?
A Don't know of any, but it oould be sees. I
can't answer that. I just ae not faeiliar with it.
Q All right, sir. Would you say that — do you
know why so few white students are attending schools that
were formerly black?
A I would say in the soned areas they are attending,
as far as any knowledge, according to where they live.
q Would you say it's because the sons lines remained
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ths
— wasn't raise.
linos to
A That's bscausa ths people
near that attendance center.
Q Of course, you had overlapping
start with, though, didn't you?
A We had sosm pseudo sones overlapping to start
with.
Q I think we won't go through all that again, but
didn't we demonstrata on April the 14th that the sons lines
did overlap, that you had overlapping sones?
A He had a dual system of sones covering the, then,
the city limits of Chattanooga.
Q Yes. And —
A (Interposing) Some of them did overlap.
Q Yes. And if those — if those sones had been
unified, as the people were then — you say where the people
are — as the people were then, there would have beam
necessarily sosm white children going to black schools ,
wouldn't there?
A And they did where they happened — when you soned
by the attending centers, we had, with other things in oonsidex
tion, the distance and where to get there and travel and that
part of it. Some schools did have a mixture and sosm did not
because they live closest to tha school.
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0 The school had been built there for thee?
A Sosw of the schools changed races. The schools
haven't been built for a race. I eean, sose may have when the]
started and stayed the sane, but sane have been one and gone
to another and so forth.
q But, the schools, as the school eystasi existed
when desegregation started, the schools had bees built for
the people, had they not?
A Yeah. The school, I hope, judgment was aade in th4
location of the school where it would be the eost convenient
to the people to go.
q And, you are drawing the sons lines, then, around
the school?
A Closest and to all children.
q According to the law of segregation at the tine
that the suit was begun?
A Yeah, before that part of it, yes, when it was all
white going to one and all black going to another.
q so, then, the fact that there's so few tfcites
going to black schools is related to the son* li»*» that
were drawn at the tie s , isn't it?
A To sons and sane not. The ones that have changed
over in this short period, short history, fron all white to
all black.
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Q You m u with regard to those schools like Avaadals
where —
A (Interposing) Sastdale is three-fourths or close
to it, all black. It was all white. So, attendance centers,
the people who live close to it, go, to the best of our — so
wo can house then all and the race of then be the race where
they are.
Q But, of course, if the sons lines had not been
left the sane as they were under segregation, if they'd been
changed so as to integrate the people in the schools to start
with, then there would have been no place for then to nove to
change to, would there, for segregation?
* I can't answer yes to that.
Q well, if you were to alter the school attendance
patt. m so that crery school in the systen had a substantial
number — had the approximate sans number of students in it as
the ratio of that race of students or to the other race of
students in the population, then there would be no school for
anybody to flee to, would there?
A Other than going out of —
q (Interposing) Other than going out of the county
or attending one of these private schools?
A Part of it, if that's the principles of soning you
want to follow. In other words —
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q (Interposing) But —
A (Continuing) — our principle* were based on
trying to, bast of our ability, lika I say, tba paopla live
closer to the attandanoa cantar would go there and where wa
handle all of than irregardless of raoe.
q But, no attention was given to changing the pattern
which has bean established by segregation, was there?
A Well, you just — difficult to keep up with the
pattern.
q Well, now, let's pursue that a little bit.
A Well, like Eastdale there. If — if ns try to
keep it all white, naturally nore black, we'd had to done
thing there to keep it that way.
q When blacks expanded dawn here in the Alton Park
area, did you or not build a school for then?
A The housing authority built a plant down there and
had some students that needed to go to school, told us it woulc
be approximately (00, and the plant was built to house then.
q yes. But, there was — but —
A (Interposing) What law they went under there when
they built it, they built it for blacks, I don't know.
q But, there were areas where you could have built
it that where it would have been integrated, weren't there?
A It would have nade a longer walking for than, but 4
1 0 7Taylor - Cross
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q (Interposing) Yes, but that could have been dona?
A You could walk, I guess, not — but you can walk
a long distance.
q So, in a sense, in building the house down there,
you were keeping up with the pattern of racial segregation,
weren't you?
A Was keeping up with the pattern of who would live
there. The result might be that, but if there had been a
mixture living there, it would have been a mixed school.
Wouldn't be any question about it. According to who lives in
the housing. They get the housing straight there, the school
would be straight.
Q Well, show the Court anywhere on the map where you
built a new school in e mixed area.
A Piney Woods, I guess. I believe just to be built,
I am trying to recollect how many's been built since that time
Dale wood.
q Of course, it has to be after 19M-43, because
admittedly you were building school for segregation prior to
that time, were you not, under the lew?
A We was building — yes# riC* went to a
school before that tine.
q Yes, all right, sir. Wsll, not under the lew,
because the lew had been changed in *55 before, bet show the
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Court anywhere where you — where you built a new school in an
integrated area.
Taylor - Cross
4 A Well, we built the Piney Woods School and the Dale-
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wood School was built.
q Now, let's look, insofar as we can, from the
statistics and your zoning, let's look again at Piney Woods.
A i was just identifying the schools that had been
!i built.
id q Piney Woods opened up black. Stayed all black till
n 1968-69 when it acquired four whites. The next year, four
,.j whites* and this year, one white.
i, A That wasn't the school — I tried to clarify ny
answer. I was trying to identify the schools that have been
built since that tine; two schools, whether either one of theni •>
is the right answer to you or not, I haven't answered that parti <i
of it.
nap, is
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right,
is it?
A
Q
You mentioned Dalewood. Dalewood is not on this
it? It should be on it.
Elementary map.
Oh, Dalewood's a junior high school? Yes. All
Dalewood, that's not — that's not really a mixed area.
It’s an area of people.
Those the only two schools you can think of that
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have been built?
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A Cedar Hill — I mean, Clifton Hills was replaced
a burnt building.
q Well, is that in a mixed area?
A That's not mixed as much as the other, just a
just replaced the school almost the same location.
Q All right. Another optional — before I ask you
that, what is your definition of schools which were actually
desegregated?
A I would say a school is desegregated if they have
freedom where they can go to — each race could go. And, if you
have one of the other race, it is a desegregated school body.
It's not substantially, but it's a desegregated student body
if there's one man.
q your definition of desegregation does not involve
any requirement, any affirmative requirement, that the School
Board mix students in the schools?
A I haven't really defined segregation. That hasn't
been my mission to define it. I just stated it would be a
desegregated school if there was one. I haven't made a formal
definition of segregation.
q you don't recognise any affirmative obligation on
the School Board to mix the children in the schools, then?
A I recognise what the School Board is requested to
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Taylor - Cross 311
do at this time.
Q I mean —
A (Interposing) I don't think for the School Board —
q (Interposing) You were — are the Assistant Super
intendent for Administration, aren't you?
A I was.
Q You were? All right. When you were acting as such,
did you recognise any affirmative obligation on the part of the
school system to integrate?
A We recognized that the pattern we had where they
were prohibitive of the races, the two races, of going to the
same school, was discriminatory and we would make it the other
way. We thought we were doing what was right, what was asked
of us.
q By making the other way —
A (Interposing) Making singla semes and with the
standard that would apply to all tones.
q flaking single zones and allowing students to attend
the schools in those zones without regard to race?
A Yeah.
q Is that right?
A Yeah.
Q And that was the extent of the obligation that was
recognized, is that correct?
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A Yeah.
Q All right, sir. Now, than. Missionary Ridge Junior
High School, when was that made optional? I have a note here
about something about an option that was established there.
A The north part of Missionary Ridge made option in
• 6 5 - 6 6 .
Q All right, sir. Something about Glanwood, 1965-66,
Glenwood was left. Was Glenwood related to that?
A It's two parts there. They join the northeast
corner of — Glenwood joins this other section up there, the
northern part of it.
Q Missionary Ridge?
A Missionary Ridge.
Q Was Glenwood a junior high school?
A Glenwood was an elementary.
Q Elementary school? And so — so then, you put
Glenwood in the Missionary — in the Missionary Ridge Junior
High School feeder pattern, is that it? Let's see —
A (Interposing) No, they just joined.
Q Well, where did the students of Gler.wood go to
junior high school before that?
A They went to a — when we had dual rones, first
year single zones — dual zones, I believe they were in an
optional zone when Donaldson, whenever it was removed downtown;
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but it was in an optional zone prior to this action.
Q There were white students living in the area of
Glenwood, were there not?
A I would say there were sons whites.
Q And they would ordinarily have been zoned to attend
what junior high school, now?
A The closest junior high school would be Orchard Knot;.
Q Orchard Knob? So, we have another situation of
white children who, according to strict zoning under this zoning
idea of proximity to the school, would have gone to a black
junior high school; but you gave then an option to go to a
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white junior high school, didn't you?
A And I explained the reason for this zoning was that
that given year, the Orchard Knob Junior High School was over
capacity and it was option zoned at that stage of the gsnw,
could have been zoned Hardy or boss other further away, but it
was that option to help avoid the tightness there at Orchard
Knob Junior High.
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Q Well, did you consider the possibility of giving
some of these people in the Orchard Knob Junior High School
zone, the option of going to Missionary Ridge, and soning the
children in Glenwood over to Orchard Knob?
A We didn't have Missionary Ridge Junior High.
Q Didn't have a Missionary Ridge?
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A No. The option — they had the option to attend —
wo had hardy and Dalewood and Brainerd and East Side and
Orchard Knob that were — surrounded that area.
Q All right, sir. Well, one of these — I an sorry.
A Now those four, formerly all-white schools that
given year, did have space for people and the one over there
adjacent to it was crowded.
Q Did you consider the possibility of giving sons of
these children at Orchard Knob the option of attending East
Side or Dalewood or Brainerd?
A (Witness moves head from side to side.)
Q Sir?
A No, sir.
q That would have increased integration if they’d
accepted that option?
A I don’t know if it would or not, but we tried — we
zoned to these schools, number that could, as best of our
ability, ones that was closest to it and the number that it
would serve.
q Wouldn’t that have had to increase integration,
since you had an all-black school population at Orchard Knob,
if any of them, just four or five of them elected to go down
to East Side, that would have increased integration, wouldn't
it?
*
Taylor - Cross 314
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A If the five had gone to East Side, it would have.
Q Well, you didn't give them the option to do so, did
you?
A No, sir. They were zoned to the surrounding — to
the capacity of the building they were zoned in. This other
area outside would normally have been zoned to that side were
given the option to go and black people live there. Don't know
the number of blacks or whites, but those blades had option to
go elsewhere. Whether they did or not, I can't answer that.
C You said that race was not a part of the creation
of these optional zones, but is it any accident that the
options always came about in a situation where a white child wan
otherwise going to be zoned to a black school that was in
close proximity to him, is that just an accident?
A I said the optional zones were created when — of
two reasons, when it was excessive distance and to avoid over
crowding condition.
Q Weil, of course, but you concede, do you not, Mr.
Taylor, that in this case here were white children in the
Glenvood area who would have been zoned right within a mile of
or less of the Orchard Knob Junior High School; but instead of
making some adjustments which would have put these white childrt
into that black school, you created an option which enabled then
to travel nearly two miles or nearly three miles to three white
Taylor - Cross 315
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junior high schools, did you not?
Taylor - Cross 316
A It was for both races to go. Both raoas did go, I
would say.
q well, but you never —
A (Interposing) Both of then wasn't — in other words,
the black side in that zone would have been locked into the
Orchard Knob School, also.
q Can you naae any situation, though, on any of these
zone maps where any — where black children were the only
children who were going to be locked in wherein they were given
an option to transfer out to some other tdiite school or pre
dominantly white school in connection with your zoning changes?
A An option to zone — we have three option zones.
you see, those two and —
q (interposing) What I am asking you is can you
can you show any situation on this map, on any of these maps,
where black children were the only people who were going to be
locked into a black school wherein an option was created which
would permit them to transfer out to other schools?
A Would Spears Avenue be whet you have reference to?
q You just — you just closed down the Speers School.
A We could have kept Spears open.
q But, you didn't, though, did you?
A And they were zoned in. It was affirmative.
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Taylor - Cross 317
q If you had kept Spears open# then we would haws had
the unusual phenonenon of white children in substantial numbers
going to a black school, wouldn't we# if you'd kept Spears open
and paired it or clustered it with those schools? You didn't
do that, did you?
A We did more than that.
Q What did you do?
A We combined it with another school.
Q Did you — did you keep the Spears building open?
A Not for attendance center.
Q You closed Spears School, didn't you?
A Yes.
Q Is there any black school that you have kept open
and assigned to substantial numbers of white children to it
and made then go, any formerly black school? There isn't, is
there, Mr. Taylor?
A I do not recollect.
Q Would you say that considering your adherence to
the concept of distance, that this then constitutes or casts
a burden — greater burden of desegregation on black children
since in order to integrate they are required to go out of the
neighborhoods to white schools?
A No. I guess it's equal. Black could mowe into
zones that's predominantly white or whites could move into
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zones predominantly black, and it would be equal.
Taylor - Cross 318
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q Have you closed any white schools in order to get -•
in order to move white children into black neighborhoods? Name
one, have you, sir?
A To my knowledge, I can't remember any.
Q So, then, black children do bear the greater burden
of desegregation in Chattanooga, don't they, by virtue of these
school closings — black schools — which require them to travel
over to white schools, sir?
A Some cases it is, I guess. I just don't know the
total answer. Haven't researched it, so I can't make a firm
answer.
q I believe you said — you said you didn't know what
percentage of students received transportation assistance on
direct examination. You haven't — you haven't checked that?
You don't have that information now, do you?
A No, sir. Do you have reference to these that's out
on these annexed areas, is that the question?
q Yes, sir.
A I didn't know I was supposed to look up that.
MR. WILLIAMS: Excuaa me just one minute. I think
I am tlirough, if Your Honor please.
That's all.
THE COURT: All right. Any reason why we should not
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take our noon recess at this time?
Taylor - Cross 319
MR. WITT: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Very well. Let's bo in recess until
1;15. We will resume the trial at 1:15.
(Thereupon, the noon recess was taken.)
AFTERMOOM SESSIOM |
(Thereupon, pursuant to the noon recess, court was
convened at 1:15 o'clock, p.m., when the following proceedings
were had and evidence introduced, to-vit:)
THE COURT: Are we ready to proceed, now, in the
case of Mapp versus the School Board?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. WITT: Defendant is ready. Your Honor.
THE COURT: Call your next witness.
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please Your Honor, if I may
be permitted to ask Mr. Taylor one or two additional questions.
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
MR. WILLIAMS: Before redirect, I would be grateful,
THE COURT: Yes.
ROBERT ARMSTRONG TAYLOR,
having been previously duly sworn, resumed the witness stand,
and testified further as follows:
CROSS EXAMINATION (continued)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
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Taylor - Croaa 320
q Mr. Taylor, you have likewise had the responsibility
for the assignment of teachers during your period of time as
Assistant Superintendent in Charge of Administration, have you
not?
A Yes, sir, I have worked in that area, yes.
q And, you have, I take it, that you applied this s
principle with regard to teachers, that you did not make
decisions on a basis of race?
A No, sir. It was in that area we were instructed by
counsel that — to — race was considered.
q When did you begin to consider race?
A I guess *65, *6 6 , '*7, some three or four years
ago. Dr. Carmichael was still Superintendent.
q All right. Now, you have — you hare been assigning
teachers on the basis of race since '65-66?
A In other words, we knew the race of the teacher.
You'd have to know that part of it, and we make an effort to
many minority race assignments as ws could work out.
q Well, how did you work then out, those that you
worked out?
A In other words, if we — I don't guess I know your
question. In other words, if —
q (interposing) Oh, what — what I ’m asking you is
how did you make these assignments on the basis of race? *#iat
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Taylor - Cross 321
criteria did you use?
MR. WITT2 May it please the Court, I have extensive
testimony along this line that will be put on on direct with
Mr. Taylor with substantial factual information organized and
prepared for this purpose.
THE COURT: Well, you may proceed as you wish. If
you wish to proceed with this witness at this time, you may do
so; or if you might wish to wait until they present other
evidence and then recall him, you may recall him.
MR. WILLIAMS: Very well, Your Honor please.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
q All right, sir. I will ask you, I have one other
question I want to ask you along the lines of zoning. You do
use portable classrooms, do you not?
A Yes, we have some portable classrooms.
q And, in the — through the use of portable class
rooms, the capacity of schools can be in effect changed, can't
they?
A Yes.
q And, to the extent that those capacities can be
in effect changed, then that affects your ability or non-
ability to retain existing zone lines, doesn't it?
A I believe that's correct, if I understand your
question.
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Taylor - Cross 322
Q Did you prepare a list of the locations of portable
classrooms that was furnished to me in April?
A Yes, sir.
MR. WILLIAMS: I would just like to have Mr. Taylor
handed this, or I will be glad to hand it to him.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
q Mr. Taylor, state whether or not — state whether
or not that is a list of the portable classrooms utilised by
the Chattanooga public schools •# April 13, 1971?
A To the best of ray knowledge, this is correct.
MR. WILLIAMS: I'd like to introduce that as the
next exhibit, Your Honor please.
THE COURT: Very well. Believe the next exhibit
in order would be Exhibit No. 28, is that correct?
(Thereupon, the document referred to
above was marked Exhibit No. 28 for
identification, Witness Mr. Taylor,
and received in evidence.)
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor, give me just a moment.
MR. WITT: Our records indicate that. Your Honor.
MR. WILLIAMS: I must have missed Exhibit 27.
THE COURT: Well, I can tell you what that is.
MR. WITT: Riverside High School.
THE COURT: Exhibit 27 related to Riverside High
School, tenth grade, and its racial composition.
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HR. WILLIAMS; Was that a map?
MR. WITT; Yes, one of these big maps.
MR. WILLIAMS* All right, sir.
BY MR. WILLIAMS;
q Now, then, you have a notation of one portable
classroom located at Amnioola which is here?
A That *s correct.
q Now, was there — where was the Roland Hayes School;
A Oh, it's south, almost directly south of there
somewhere right in that neighborhood somewhere, that's pretty
close.
Taylor - Cross 323
0
A
Q
That was an all-black school?
All-black school.
And then over here at Eleventh was the East
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Chattanooga —
A (Interposing) Yes, sir, East Chattanooga Elementary
Q And, that had a substantial number of blacks in it,
tco, didn't it? Did not?
A Blacks, seems to me, ran from 8 to 12 at that time
in that school.
q Most all the blacks were enrolled in Hayes?
A Annexed area, two schools out, two rather small
schools, Aranicola and Roland Hayes.
q with the use of that portable, you in effect were
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able to keep the children in Amnicola, is that correct?
A Consolidated the schools.
q Mien did you consolidate Roland Hayes?
A When we first began operating the schools in that
area. That would be — we'd been there two years, I guess.
Q All right.
A *69-70 was the first year.
q All right. I take it you probably had vacant
space at Roland Hayes. That’s one of the reasons why you
closed it, is that right?
A Roland Hayes was an old building.
Q Is that why you closed it?
A We didn't accept it from the county, in other words
we — this was a newer building up there — Amnicola.
q So, you just took the newer building and put the
portable up there and closed the black school, is that it?
A Portable was — we anticipated more people. The
two schools put together would make more than we got, but
putting them together, we lost some. So, see, we had to
estimate the year before it happened, before reality, and some
times we're not very good estimators, I guess. We thought we'd
have more there than wo had.
q I notice you have two portables at Avondale, which
is here, is it not?
Taylor - Cross 324
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A That's correct.
q All right. And, that those portables, they are
to accommodate overcrowding, aren't they?
a Yes. In other words, daring that span of sone
changes and we finally — two portables, and we remodeled sone
Taylor - Cross 325
‘ at that place.
But, area11 there
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vacant spaces over here at
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A Eastdale is fairly close, the projected enrollment
Eastdale would be — we got to do something over there.
q Aren’t there some vacant spaces?
A In a given year, it would be vacant space, but —
q (Interposing) So that these portables at Avondale
permit you and, of course, Avondale has only one white child?
A For this given year.
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q The portables there permit you — how many children
does a portable accommodate?
A We estimate 30.
q All right. That portable permits you to accommodate
30 black children who perhaps could be assigned over here at
Eastdale or possibly down at Missionary Ridge?
A All right. Could be assigned to East Chattanooga.
2l Q Ox to —
^ (Interposing) The distance is the thing. East
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Chattanooga has vacant — I know, got vacant spaces, East
Chattanooga.
Taylor - Cross
q so that the effect of that portable Insofar as it
retains almost total segregation at Avondale is to perpetuate
segregation there when it could — that could have been
alleviated by sending those children to one of these other
schools, isn't it?
A If we reached a conclusion to send then that
greater distance.
q Distance was your factor there?
A That was the major factor, trying to get them to
go to the near — school closest to them, the thing being
equal, but there is a good case of unequal situation there,
See, East Chattanooga coming out almost — Avondale right next
to the school.
q Yes. So —
A (Interposing) We could have soned — brought the
zone below the school and not let any within attend the
Avondale and go to East Chattanooga and do that, but it's not
a practical distribution.
q well, the zone could have been changed so as to
zone those children into East Chattanooga and that way
eliminated the need for that portable?
A It could have been done, be a long distance for
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elementary to go, but it can be done.
Taylor - Cross 327
0 Wouldn't have been any longer than the distance
from way up here at the top of Missionary Ridge down hers to the
middle of it, though, would it?
A I would say not.
Q All right, sir. But, those are all white children
traveling that distance, aren't they, on Missionary Ridge?
A It's some black there, sane, I don't knew where
they live.
q Mostly white?
A Yeah.
q Yes, all right, sir. Now — now, also you have —
you have four portables at Bxainerd High School. Now, that's
not shown on either one of these maps, but I take it it would
probably be near Brainerd Junior High?
A No, sir, it's on North Moore Road right next to
that.
q Near the air field?
A Come back this way, fairly close there on account
of adjacent to that low area. That — that's pretty close.
q somewhere in here? Brainerd High School, you have
two portables there and, of course, Brainerd High School is
almost exclusively white, one black there, if I recall?
A Brainerd High School is an open xone.
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Taylor - Cross 328
Q Yes, sir. But what I am saying is that you have
two portables there to accommodate Brainerd High School, don't
you, to accommodate the students who are attending there?
A We have four portables there, to my knowledge.
Q Four portables?
Now, if those portables were not available, were
not used, and the school were not overcrowded, then those
white students would have to attend one of these black high
schools over here, wouldn't they, either Howard down in this
are or Riverside up in this area, wouldn't they?
A Not necessarily, they could.
Q Well, that's already overcrowded?
A Some children there that are county children would
have been ruled out first aund then — in other words, it could
be brought within — close to the thing if we didn't
q (interposing) Didn't you say — isn't freedom of
choice based to some extent on capacity?
A Yes. In other words, in our regulations, if we
have a school — that it's over capacity, over %*»at we deem
the normal capacity of it.
q Then, you turn an applicant away?
A We turn the county applicants away and out of
state and anywhere else of that type; but the City of Chatta
nooga persons, then we get resolved down to it just — in a
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non-zone school or optional pupil, the cooperative accessible
distance that the pupils who desire to enter that school has
to travel to a given school would determine the ones that would
be admitted.
Taylor - Cross 329
Q well, let me ask you this: Uow many county student:
do you have in Brainerd?
A I do not know. It's on one of those maps.
Q It's on one of the maps? Can you furnish us the
information as to how many county students by race are attendiw
each school in the system?
A They are on the — that can be furnished. The
second grade and the seventh grade and tenth grade was prepared
when they prepared the other maps. Me will have them which —
we —
Q (Interposing) Can you furnish us that in written
form? Don’t you have a written tabulation anywhere of the
number? I
A I don’t, but we can get the list. That's written
list on the map on the left-hand side of that soap is a list —
table form.
q All right. So, will you furnish us a copy of that,
then?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right, sir.
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MR. W I L L I A M S T o u r Honor please, could that be
assigned an exhibit number so that I will know that W* will get
it into the record? I have had the experience of forgetting
things.
THE COURT: Perhaps they nay be able to furnish
something.
MR. HITTi I intended to. I have this ready for
introduction with another witness.
MR. WILLIAMS: All right, sir. Pine, sir. All
right.
Taylor - Cross 330
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DY MR. WILLIAMS;
0 Well, now, in any event, this is an illustration
where the use of a portable affects the capacity in your high
schools and your — and admission to your high schools and your
freedom of choice is likewise affected by that sues capacity,
isn't it?
i
A Yes.
0 Yes. And, the effect of that is — the effect of
that is to retain — thank you, sir.
MR. WILLIAMS: All right. I'd like to introduce
that as an exhibit, then, if Tour Honor please, if Mr. Taylor
knows and can explain what it is.
THE WITNESS: I can't say I can do that.
THE COURT: No. 29.
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Taylor - Cross 331
(Thereupon, the document referred to
above was marked Kxhibik No. 2J,
for identification, witness Nr.
Taylor, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
q i will ask you if this Exhibit 29, if you understand
that the figures in parentheses are the number of county student is?
A Out-of-city students, yes, right.
q is that information correct, that over in the last
column where it's — for instance, at Brainerd that there's a
total of 166 black students of whom 8 are county students end
or so I am advised by your counsel?
MR. WITT: Tuition students.
THE WITNESS: Tuition.
BY MR. WILLIAMS;
q Nine hundred sixty-five whites of whom one hundred
ninety-five are county or tuition?
A Oh-huh.
q Now, tuition — are all tuition students out of
county, Mr. Taylor?
A Tuition outside the city limits, yes. City of
Chattanooga city limits.
q All right, sir. Well, then, st Brainerd, let me
v*
ask you this, too, why do you have the portables st Brainerd?
Is that because Brainerd ia over capacity, that the building
itself is over capacity?
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Taylor - Cross 332
A I would say that's the reason they are placed these,
yes, the capacity figure.
q I don't understand that. I an going to ask you,
did you prepare the answers to the interrogatories that were
filed in this case?
A If you ask the question, I could tell by the answer.
I could work with you on it. I can't —
q (Interposing) All right. I an going to hand you
an exhibit, answers to the interrogatories. Did you prepare
these answers to the interrogatories that were furnished and
filed in this case in 1969 showing the capacities of the
schools?
A No, sir, to my knowledge I have never seen this
before.
0 All right. Do you have anywhere in your records
here the school capacity of —
A (Interposing) Ho, air, I do not.
q (Continuing) — Brainerd High School? All right.
well, I will leave that. Maybe I can get that
some other way. Let's go on to Cedar Hill, Mo* 5. You have
one interrogatory, I swan one portable claserooe at Cedar Mill*
Of course, that is to take care of an overcapacity also, isn't
it?
A That was to make possible e library facility
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there. During this span of tine we are talking about, the
regulation cane in for a library in the elementary schools, and
we now have a library center in each one of then.
Q Yes. But, without that portable classroom, you
would be over capacity, wouldn't you?
A This given year?
Q At Cedar Hill, Mo. 5?
A At Cedar Hill, I'd say it could take nore pupils
than it has now, 174 this year.
Q
A
Q
have?
A
I guess.
Q
A
Q
A
Taylor - Cross 333
Why are you using a portable classroom?
Distribution of the pupils, and it*s —
(Interposing) How aany classrooms doss that school
Best of ny knowledge, it hss six, that makes
And, the portable makes seven?
That * s the best of ny knowledge. I nay be inoorrsctj.
Then, you have plenty of vacant space at Cedar Hill?
If they broken — in other words, 30 to a pupil,
and 30 times 6 is 180 with a library facility it nakes it 16.
Q Well, let's go to Donaldson, which is Mo. 10, and
which is right over here. You have a portable classroom there.
Is that to take care of an overcapacity?
A Mo, sir, it was anticipated over capacity, but when
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Taylor - Cross 334
added to that tone, Sanderson, but the people didn't show up.
I thought — we lost sore in the total zones of
Sanderson than we thought we would. We thought we would have
approximate capacity to that.
Q So, that's not important there. Well, let's get
back to Cedar Hill. With a classroom capacity of 180 end a
student population of 174, Cedar Hill is near the overcapacity?
A You say it is nearly over?
Q Yes.
A well, it has one room per grade and according to
how the students break, it could be.
Q well, take a look at Piney Woods. How many class
rooms are there in this new Piney Woods School, black school,
that you built here?
A This is from memory so —
Q (Interposing) Approximately.
A Approximately 18, I guess, 18 or 19.
Q About 600 capacity there in that school, that's
correct?
A About that number.
0 Now —
A (Interposing) Five-sixty, six hundred.
Q Now, with that enrollment — with an enrollment in
that school of 308, that school is about half capacity, isn't
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Taylor - Cross
it?
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It can take more pupils.
Sir?
Yes, it could enroll mors people.
And, you could integrate that school if you'd enroll
some more people frost Cedar Kill and maybe Clifton Hills, here,
couldn't you?
A Yes, they could be joined together, those two
zones. It's a —
q (Interposing) All right, sir.
A It's one narrow bridge, no sidewalks, and so forth,
safety of the children would be on somebody's hands; but it
could be done. It's a very irregular type of a place to walk
across there, but —
q (Interposing) Well, let's take a look at Elbert
Long.
A
Q
A
Q
Way out in the east —
(Interposing) Out here by the airport?
That's correct.
You have three prefabs et that school and three
portable classrooms?
A Yes, that's correct. They were added at the tine
of the annexation of that small area out there by the airport.
q That is to relieve an overcapacity situation, is
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that right?
A Make possible to accommodate those students in that
vicinity.
Q All right, sir. Mow, you do have m m black
children, though, living in this area in here, haven't you,
in the Sunnyside?
A Sunnyside and Elbert Long has several out there in
that newly annexed area that went to Elbert Long.
Taylor - Cross 336
Q
that?
Where is the — in the KiVermont area, tdiere is
A That's up there, *D," up in the center, go on up —
there you go.
Q All right. You have six prefabs up there?
A Yes, that's what caused the problem there wes the
north line of the zone. You see, the north lino of the city --
right across the street is a DuPont EleMentary School, which
is still operated by the county. And, those pupils there who
go there were zoned there.
Q Thank you for mentioning that. I knew I had
DuPont in my notes and couldn't figure it out. Mas DuPont a
black or white school?
A White school.
Q It was a white school?
A To my knowledge, I don't think any blacks in it.
f
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Taylor Cross 337
q Located just across the line?
A Just adjacent to the Line, yes.
Q Why would that result in overcrowding at Ri Vermont?
A Well, DuPont was a county school. Both of then
were county, and halfway between DuPont and RiVermont was the
normal flow to DuPont. Well, they didn't take any more —
took a few limited and each year they take less. So, we had
to go right up to the building and take all that formerly went
to DuPont.
In other words, RiVermont, if it just had the area
it had, 4SO would have handled it; but when you out off thatI
other group from that other school —
Q (Interposing) I still don't follow that. Is
RiVermont still accepting the asms number of children that it
had when it —
A (Interposing) Accept the childran it had. It had
8till the same boundary it had previously to annexation and plui
some that went to DuPont.
Q Why is that? I don't understand what happened.
A When the city annexed it, the county didn't have
room for them in their facility there et DuPont. The first
year they let some go, but they — they used the facility for
their own pupils.
0 All right. I notice that at Glenwood you have e
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Taylor - Cross 338
‘> prefab, a portable classroom. Is that to talcs cars of over-
:l crowding at Glenwood?
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A Tes, three or four apartments got built right there
near the place.
Q All right. And, is there an adjacent school where
there's vacant space?
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A They could go to Orchard Knob. It's vacant now.
Avondale is almost.
to Q orchard Knob is 26? That's a black school, though.
1 1 isn't it?
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A Yes.
q So, we are using the portable there at Glenwood
to accommodate some white children who could be sent to Orchard
Knob?
A One white, but we — one white child, I believe.
17 at Orchard Knob — at Glenwood, but —
+ “1!)
q (Interposing) Only one child left at Glenwood?
A I believe if I am correct. I mean, be happy to
20 look — to be exact. Mo, it's two.
21 q You are right. You have got that down to two
‘)*>
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whites there?
A I didn't get it down. They got it down, now,
24 counselor.
25 q I see. But — all right. Than, you war* using
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portable classroons. How about Eastdala, what's the caepoeitior
of Kastdale?
A Eastdala is about thraa-fourths black at this year.
Was all white at one time.
Q And, Eastdala is No. 12 right hare?
A Eastdala is going to run into probleea. If you
talk about it next year, it's in a tight situation, now.
Q Is Eastdala over or under capacity?
A It's got about capacity now; but it's three or
four apartnents being built out there on — adjacent to it.
Q Black apartnents?
A I don't know who is going in the apartnents, ain't
built yet. Sonebody Move in, I can tell you, then.
Taylor - Cross 339
Who are they being planned for?
I don't know that.
I see. All right.
I hope they're doing what's legal, ihatewr that
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A
Q
A
i3.
q All right, sir. well, now, Henry. Let's skip
around a little here. Henry, that's No. 19.
A Henry's up in the corner, up in —
q (Interposing) Up here?
A Next — over here. Ccsse on out. There you go,
q All right. You have a portable there?
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Taylor - Cross 3*0
A
apartments.
That's right. They built apartments there — two
Q All right.
A Overcrowdedness.
Q What are the schools that are undercrovded? What
are some of the elementary schools that are undercrowded,
under capacity?
a Well, you start there at Henry, then over there at
Smith is under.
Q Where is Smith located?
A That's one right directly east of it.
Q All right.
A You're way aver.
Q Sir, more this way?
A No, the school closest to Henry. That's under
capacity. And, the Carpenter and —
Q (Interposing) Carpenter?
A Bast Fifth area is under capacity.
Q East Fifth?
A Right next to it, it's not shown there.
Q All right. It's in that same area there?
A Orchard Knob can handle more, now.
Q Orchard Knob is under capacity?
A Glenwood is filled.
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Taylor - Cross 341
Q Glenwood is filled, but, all right, 9 0 on.
A Avondale is — could accept a few and few were
zoned there, but it's got two apartments being built there,
so we are going to have problems next year.
Q Who is building those apartments?
A Don't know. Apartment being built, I think, a
private enterprise. Bast Chattanooga has room, Garber there
next to it.
U That's Garber?
a No, this way. Almost capacity. Amnioola could
take more.
Q Amnicola is under capacity?
A We have five rooms of 150, had 110, so it's sons
action actually going to take place in that area for economic
reasons.
U Would you say in general the schools in the inner
core of the city, the old schools that were formerly white
schools, have been taken over by black schools — students —
are generally under capacity?
A Not necessarily. It fits all.
Q Didn't you nama —
A (Interposing) Garber can handle — this one is
because of building some apartments near it, caused the trouble
there.
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Taylor Cross 342
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Didn't you naas Hanry?
Aa being a capacity situation, 1
under capacity?
No.
All right. Didn't you nans —
(Interposing) smith.
As being under capacity?
Carpenter and East Fifth.
Orchard Knob?
A But you get out there and name the other areas,
also, Garber out in Woodmors and even Sunny side could take
some more. So, all of them have lost. Hot all over la here
lost it. Lost it on both sides.
Q So, really, really, you don't have any capacity
problem and you really don't need these portables except your
concept of keeping these children where they axe?
a The long distance, not keeping then — uaking then
travel extreme long distance.
q of providing the school right In the area where
they are, isn't that correct, Mr. Taylor?
a That's fairly close, right.
m r . WILLIAMS: X believe that's all.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT:
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Taylor - Redirect 343
Q Mr. Taylor, la preparing to testify, did you check
into the history of soning practices in the Chattanooga school
system over a period of tine?
A Yes, sir, I read whatever I could find.
Q Did you attempt to examine and acquaint yourself
with the practices that had been followed as the records of the
school system indicated?
A Yes, sir.
0 As a part of this, did you prepare a memorandum
ettlng forth the purposes that were followed in attendance zones,
administration in the city school system?
A Yes, sir.
q Would you make this the next exhibit to your
testimony?
MR. WILLIAMS: I'd like to see it.
MR. WITT i I am going to give you a copy. .■
THE COURT: Exhibit No. 30.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit Mo.
30 for identification. Witness Mr.
Taylor, and received in evidence.)
MR. WILLIAMS: Please the Court, I — that's all
right.
BY MR. WITT:
q Mr. Taylor, has the Chattanooga system always zoned
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Taylor - Redirect
schools?
344
A As far as ay knowledge, the zones started with the
reorganisation of the Chattanooga public schools after *41 when
Dr. Derthick cans over here, was Superintendent of schools.
At the time it was experiencing considerable difficulty,
particularly the elesuitary, of sore people wanting to go to an
attendance center than we could accommodate. So, to put sees
higher level planning in the administration, they set about to
adopt zones for schools.
q Were teacher loads a part of this goal in
designing school zones?
A A teacher load has t o n — is a resulting thing of
the capacity of a building. In other words, if you go with
capacity, you allot teachers based on every 30 pupils, than
the teacher load would be adequate.
Now, if someone overfilled s building and just had
so many teaching stations, they had to go up to 40 or 50, that
type of thing. Then that certainly would be out of line.
But, normally, I wouldn't say teacher load has any — X naan,
it'8 a resulting thing from — if you do proper planning, you
won't have that problem.
q Do you have goals or objectives in the teacher-
pupil ratio that you attempt to attain?
A we attempt to follow the Board's policy In that
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area, and I think m do a fair job in that, gom stlmss it*a
I an emergency where exception has to be aaked of the Board.
q is a classroom with 40 pupils in it more or leaa
expensive than a classroom with 20 pupils in it?
A I'd say a classroom with 40 pupils in it la more
expensive as far as education is concerned, for what each child
is getting out of what's been offered.
q But, from the viewpoint of the money and not —
A (Interposing) Viewpoint of money, if you could —
a teacher teach 40, certainly would be one salary saved by
your example, 40 — 20.
| Taylor - Redirect 345
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q Then, when you use the term school building
capacity, what are you really talking about?
a Well, in general terms, you are talking about
approximately 30 pupils per teacher teaching station. You
have some things that would bear on that.
If you have many special education classes, you
can't accommodate as many in a special education class, but
usually the rule of thumb is about 30 per teaching station.
q So, a teaching station and the nvmber of elassrooi
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) I abject to counsel
testifying.
BY MR. WITT:
q Are teaching stations and classrooms synonymous
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terms?
A
Q
I would say they would be, yeah.
Are there two teaching stations sometimes in the
same classroom?
A
Q
A
Can be more than that. Could be three, four,
would a gym teacher be a teaching station?
Yes, that would be considered as a classroom
arrangement.
Now, the library is a teaching station, but we
usually don’t count them as some other. We usually don't
count that as a number of pupils, but library is a station
for a person — faculty member, in the junior high particularly,
try to in the elementary as much as possible.
0 is there any relationship between good zoning and
careful use of taxpayers' money?
A It’s —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) I object to this,
please. This is irrelevant.
THE COURT: Well, overruled.
BY _MR. WITT:
q Hr. Taylor, in attempting to clarify some of the
confusion that results from zoning, the adm inistration of
zones, have you prepared some illustrations?
A Yes, sir.
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Taylor - Redirect 347
Q The first one is entitled, "Alton Park-St. Kino
Area, Elementary Dual Zones."
Was this prepared by you and under your supervision?
A That's correct.
0
testimony?
Would you offer this as the next exhibit to your
A I'd rather offer the next one first and then cone
this one second.
Q All right. First one be Alton Part-St. Kino Area,
Elementary Schools, Exhibit 31; and Alton Park-St. Elmo Area,
Elementary Dual Zone, Exhibit 32.
(Thereupon, the docusnnts referred
to above were marked Exhibits Nos.
31 and 32 for identification. Witness
Mr. Taylor, and received in evidence.)
BY HR. HITT:
0 Mr. Taylor, will you explain what these are
intended to illustrate?
A In the first picture there, that's a representation
of the southwest corner of the city. We have in that area —
Q (Interposing) The area here to the —
A (Interposing) City limits.
Q West? Whet would that represent?
A City limits of Chattanooga.
Q What is the area at the bottom or to the south?
A Georgia state line.
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Q And, what la the area to the east or on the right?
That la the Chattanooga Creek, I believe, la the
name of that stream there.
Q All right.
It's the section west of Chattanooga
Creek, use aa an example of the problems faced the adalnlstre-
tion whan they went into the dual-«ingle some situation. We
ihad in that one, two, three, four, five, six, aeve, — seven
1 Attendance centers that we were using for elementary pupils
lolLod that’s where they were located. They were there.
ind, our Job was trying to uee them to the best
of the ability, to closest of the youngsters to the school, and
HR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) Of course, I object,
ii Ifif Your Honor plssse,. This man has testified that be did not
jatabliah those elementary sonee and now he la talking about
i t we did, and that’s impossible. Oot to be eoneoeted
testimony.
THE COURT: Well, believe I will leave that for
19 Examination of the witness.
’() |Y MR. WITT:
What dees the second part illustrate?
Second pert illustrates s general, possible
arrangement of single cones for those attendance centers
that’s established in that part of the city.
The lines have been drawn perpendicular to a line
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connecting each one of the zones, and it's a — something of
that nature would be the resulting thing if it was equal in
number of people and capacity and other things. Trying to show
the problem that the group who did the planning faced.
Q Does this include a determination of the capacity
of each one of the schools?
A No, just a general line — a line drawn somewhere
in between the centers to zone them in.
Q In other words, where these lines — where these
lines are drawn have no relationship to school capacity?
A No, there's just a fictitious line drawn between
the two centers. Somewhere in between the center would be a
line, and they were drawn perpendicular to the line that's
connecting the centers.
q What was the purpose in that kind of line?
A In other words, the resulting zones, single zones,
would have some similarity to that type of operation. It’s
not a real — neither one of them —
Q (Interposing) Now, what do your records show
the real problem —
NR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) I object to that
as being leading and suggestive and not prop** redirect, either.
THE COURT: Well, sustain the-objection as to the
form of the question.
Taylor - Redirect 349
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DY MR. WITT;
Q ^ • Taylor, how were the zones from your records,
your examination of the records, how were they put together?
A No. 3 there would be under No. 3.
Q What is No. 3?
A No. 3 is a reproduction of the single zones that
were established for the '62-63 school year. That's southeast
corner — southwest corner.
Q These were, are you saying, that these were the
initial single zones?
A Initial single zones.
Q Went into operation in 1962-63?
A Yes.
Q For the first three grades?
A First three grades if it applied, and the next
year for the first four if they did apply to all of them.
Q All right. Mr. Taylor, the dividing line between
Henry Trotter School and the St. Elmo School, does it follow
any natural barrier?
A Yes, sir. Have cemetery and cemetery ridge and
then down the bottom end of it is accessible distance.
0 No. 2, then, is Charles A. Bell School?
A Two, Charles A. Bell.
Q Now, your attention to Exhibit No. 32.
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Taylor - Redirect 351
A That —
Q (Interposing) What is this exhibit Mr. Taylor?
A This is supposed to be a reproduction of that
same section of the city with the dual zones. One over here
on this side is the zone for black pupils and the one on the
other side is zoned for white pupils. That was dual zone
prior to the single zone.
Q All right. The dual — during the dual zone period
then, the — did the St. Elmo dual zone cover areas served by
black schools?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many?
A One, two, three, four — four black schools were
under that zone.
q Which were these?
A They were Trotter, Bell, Donaldson, and Louis
Sanderson.
Do we have any zone now that looks like that at
No.
Is the — let's see Bell School.
That's Trotter.
Is the Trotter School still located today where
it was in 1962-63? ^
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Taylor - Redirect 352
A Yes, sir.
Q Have any of these schools changed their locations
since 1962-63?
A No, sir.
Q Now, the — Mr. Williams made a point — no, that's
another point. This, the Bell School, is it near a housing
project?
A Yes.
Q Did the Chattanooga Hoard of Education have anythin*
to do with the location of the housing project served by the
Bell School?
A I do not know the answer to that question.
0 Well, does the Chattanooga Board ordinarily have
any relationship to the decisions sttde by the housing authority *
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to that, if Your Honor
please.
MR. WITT: Mr. Taylor has participated in most
of the School Board meetings. He knows what the School Board
does and what it can't do.
THE COURT: He may testify to the extent of his
personal knowledge, not just what he stay have heard.
BY MR. WITT:
g To your knowledge, Mr. Taylor, does the Chattanooga
Board have any part in the decision-aaking of tha Chattanooga
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Housing Authority?
353
MR. WILLIAMS: That's an improper question. It
does not ask him whether he has any knowledge in that regard.
Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, just limit your answer to the
extent of your personal knowledge.
THE WITNESS: Prom my level of operation, I haven't
been involved in planning housing projects.
BY MR. WITT:
q Has the Chattanooga Board, to your knowledge?
A To my knowledge, I do not know. I don't think they
have, to my knowledge, I do not know.
q All right. Mr. Taylor, in the performance of your
duties as Assistant Superintendent and Assistant to the
Superintendent, were you aware of any legal obligation upon
you or the Board to prevent resegregation?
A No, sir.
q During your redirect examination, we discussed the
situation of the year 1967 — '66—67. And, I will refer you
to your Exhibit — to your testimony entitled, "Statistical
Reports on Pupil Desegregation." Call your attention to
column five on page 2A of 3.
A I haven't found it, 2A?
Q Of 3.
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A
Q
with regard
Of three? All right. Mow —
(Interposing) What does this reveal of significance
to 1966-47?
A 1966-C7 was the first year of the plan that grades
1 through 1 2 , eligible for desegregation, and I wean of all
grades, 1 through 1 2 .
q Then, i* — would this be the first year in which
the unitary zones were fully operable?
A Yes.
q All right. In the course of your cross examina
tion, same statistics were given for the year ’62-63 and
compared with other years. What grades were desegregated
in ’62-63?
A One through three in sixteen selected schools.
q Do you —
A (Interposing) And then the next year, *63-64,
one through four in all elementary schools.
q All right. Then in ’64-65, did all elementary
schools have a unitary zone for the first time?
A One through six.
q Do you recall what the original plan of desegrega
tion as approved by the Court was with reference to when
unitary zones would be completely operable?
A I do not know for a fact. The best I can remember»
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it wat cut down to about half, but I don't know the dates or
what years what plan —
Q (Interposing) But, you do know that the original
termination of segregation was originally earlier — later than
•66-67?
A Yes.
Q But, you don't remember the exact —
A (Interposing) I don't know.
U Direct your attention to the City High School
building that was opened, I believe, in 1963-64. What was
your position in the school system at the time that City High
School was moved north of the river and Riverside High School
was opened, what was your position?
A Assistant Superintendent with general administra
tion in '63-64.
Q Do you know when the high school north of the rivei
was planned?
A I do not know about the planning of it.
Q But, it was planned prior to that time, but you
don't know exactly the year?
A ho, sir, I didn't have any association in the
planning of it.
Q Well, when it was built, was there a black
elementary school near Chattanooga High School at the time
Taylor - Redirect 355
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Taylor - Redirect
it was built?
356
A Yes, Spears Avenue.
0 How far is Spears Avenue from Chattanooga High
School?
A I don't know.
Q Approximately?
A Prom the property line, I guess half a mile,
quarter of a mile from the property line.
Q All right. Then, there were blacks and whites
living in the area which the high school was constructed, is
this correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was your position in the school system at
the time the Piney Woods School was built?
A 1 was — same position, Assistant Superintendent
of General Administration.
0 Do you recall when it was planned?
A I recall some of it when it was planned. For
the location and that part of it, I do not recall anything in
that, but —
0 (Interposing) Well, in deciding where to build
that school, what did the Board take into consideration?
A This is assumption on my part is —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) I object to that.
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Taylor - Redirect. 357
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WITT:
0 Mr. Taylor, is it a part of your responsibility
as Assistant Superintendent to attend the Board M e tings?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you generally attend Board meetings?
A Yes, sir.
Q Does the Board usually neet prior to — on Monday
prior to the Board Meting to discuss the agenda?
A Yes, sir.
Q Are the Assistant Superintendents usually present
at that meeting?
A Yes, sir.
Q Does — at that time, does the Superintendent
and staff usually present to the Board the decisions to be
made and the facts and plans with regard to those decisions?
A Yea.
Q Does the decision with reference to the location
of an elementary school, is that decision made by the School
Board?
MR. WILLIAMS: That is objected to as leading
and suggestive.
THE COURT: Yes, sustained.
BY MR. WITT:
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Taylor - Redirect 358
0 Mho eekes the decision with reference to the
location of schools in the Chattanooga school systesi?
A Hell, the Board makes them.
Q What part does the staff have in this decision?
A
Q
Tries to present the alternatives and that's —
(Interposing) Is it the staff's responsibility
to gather together the facts with regard to the decision?
MR. WILLIAMS I Object to his being leading and
suggestive.
THE COURT: Yes, sustained.
BY MR. WITT:
0 Explain the role of the staff with regard to the
location of the school as you understand it.
A I would say it would be the function of the staff
to give, in readable form, to the Board data showing the
projected enrollment in a given location, if you are going to
add a room or build a new building; and possible sites that
are available and then a possible plan and program of educa
tion that will fit into the building to fit the leaders of the
community that's present.
Q In discharging this responsibility, would they
seek to know — would they make any effort to determine the
number of students that would be in a housing project?
A An effort was made. I wasn't involved in the
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effort. The material was provided through other staff members,
the number of students to be expected to be in this housing
project.
Q Do you remember how many students were to be in
this project?
A They would say it would be close to 550, somewhere
in that neighborhood. That's what I was expecting to be there,
l got that concept from someone.
0 Mow, in Mr. Williams’ questions to you, he raised
a possibility of pairing schools. What do you — what do you
understand the concept of pairing to mean?
A I would say, if you pair two elementary schools
and — and if one was twice as big as the other one as far
as capacity, that maybe two grades would be in one, four
grades in the other; or equal capacity, three and three,
according to sizes of the school and so forth.
Q Can you apply that principle to the Alton Park-
St. Elmo area and particularly the St. Elmo School and the
Trotter School?
A The principle of pairing could be applied. The
other things, the easiest one would be Donaldson and Bell
in that particular instance, because accessibility is not a
hazardous situation or so you say the first three grades go
to Donaldson and the fourth through sixth go to Bell. Could
Taylor - Redirect 359
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be an example of vhat you say.
Q In that particular situation, would that have
achieved any greater degree of desegregation?
A No, not in that area.
Q That’s also — what’s the effect of pairing
upon the distance as traveled in that situation?
A Well, relative close together, those two buildings
Q Are you saying that you put the first three grades
in Donaldson and grades five — four, five, and six in Bell,
is that what you are saying?
A I say that’s a possibility, yea.
Q This would be — fit your definition of pairing?
A That’s the best of my knowledge.
Q This is what you understand pairing to mean?
A Yeah.
Q Then, what would the effect of this be upon the
distances as far as pupils are involved?
A Make seme of them go further to school, yes.
Two schools close together be easier to handle that way where
they are far away.
Q What would have been the problems in pairing St.
Klmo and Trotter?
MR. WILLIAMS: That’s objected as being leading
and suggestive.
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Tayior - Redirect 361
THE COURT: Hell —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) if he testified
there would be any problems, if Your Honor please.
MR. WITT: He did on cross examination. He talked
about the ridge. He talked about the wooded areas.
THE COURT: He may state his answer.
THE WITNESS: Yes, the problem there is
cemetery and ridge that runs through there. You can notice it
was observed that one situation, in both maps in the dual zonal ,
it was recognized when all blacks went to those schools an
this side and still recognized over there. In other words,
that line been recognized before after of being a thing
that impedes transportation — I mean movement.
BY HR. WITT:
Q What handicaps, if any, can you identify any
handicaps or — to the students in a pairing situation such
as we have been discussing?
A Educationally, somebody else needs to answer that
part of it; but as far as distance, traveling, if they were
located properly to start with, increased distance.
Q Can you think of any other obstacles other than
distance?
A I guess that's the major — in other words, if
it's accessible between the two schools, sonething hindering
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362Taylor - Redirect
the movement between the two schools* in other words* natural
barriers that are deterrents to travel* all those things.
q Mr. Taylor* in the course of your redirect* Mr.
Williams was discussing the degree of pupil desegregation.
Call your attention again to the page 3A of 3 of your exhibit.
All right. The first year of desegregation*
1962-63, when grades one through three were all that was
desegregated* how many Negro students were there in formerly
all-white schools?
THE COURTi Beg your pardon?
BY MR. WITT;
q How many white students were there in — no* Negro
students in formerly all-white schools* that's the question.
A Forty-six.
q In 1962-63? All right. That's — my question*
Mr. Taylor, was with regard to white students in formerly
all-Negro schools.
A Oh.
q Excuse me. Bottom of page 3 — at the bottom of
the left-hand column.
A Zero.
Q All right. The next year when the first four
grades were desegregated?
A Four.
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q Bow many atudanta?
A Pour.
q All right. Than, in tha next yaar, all elementary
schools were desegregated. How many black atudanta uara
there?
A rifty-one.
Q And than in 1965-66, tha seventh grade was added,
I believe?
A uh-huh.
Q b o w many blade students — no, how many white
students ware there in formerly all-black schools?
A Forty-nine.
q Then in *66-67, when all twelve grades were
desegregated, ho. many .indent, were there in this category?
A What ware tha years, sir?
Q 1966-67.
A Forty-two.
Q Than, in 1967-68, what was tha figure?
A Forty-eight.
Q Than in the second yaar of — in the third
complete single .ones, ho. many students — blech students
white students were there in formerly all-Negro school.?
A Seventy-two, *63 -59. •*'
q All right. Than, in 1569-70?
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A Porty-one.
q And then as the tenth day of 1970-71?
A For ty-e ight.
q Now, during this sane period of tine, Mr. Taylor,
what was —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) This is objected
to as being repetitious, if Your Honor please.
MR. WITT: Don't believe it's ever been put in in
exactly this fora. That's the purpose of it, to show the
changes as they have gone along, the increase in desegregation,
BY MR. WITT:
q Now, Mr. Taylor, what has been the history of
black students in formerly all-white schools the first year
of desegregation?
A Forty-six.
q porty-six? All right. Now, let's skip to *&en
all of the elementary schools were desegregated, what was this
figure, 1964-65?
A One thousand thirty-one.
q All right. Now, when all twelve grades were
desegregated, what was this figure?
A One thousand eight oh seven — eight oh eight.
q All right. And what is this figure as of the
tenth day of school this year?
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A Three thousand four hundred forty-six.
q All right, sir. Mr. Taylor, has the school popula
tion — total school population in the system decreased or
increased in recent years?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to that, because that's
in the statistics. We have been over it, if Your Honor please
We will stipulate it's decreased.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WITT: Okay.
BY MR. WITT:
q Mr. Taylor, is the Garber School in Bast Chatta
nooga, is this adjacent to a housing project?
A Yes, sir.
q Do you have any idea what percentage of the
students at the Garber School reside in the housing project?
A It would be a guess, 90 — 95 percent in the
housing project.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I object to the guessing.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WITT:
q In your design of elementary school sones, does
the means by which the children leave their homes and arrive
at schools, is this taken into consideration?
A You will state your question again?
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MR. w i l l i a m s : I object to it. I a * glad he
didn't understand it. It's leading and suggestive, if Tour
llonor please. I object to it.
BY MR. WITT:
q In your zones — in designing your sones for
elementary schools, do you give any consideration to the neans
by which students get fro* their horns to the school?
THE COURT: He can answer.
THE WITNESS* I would say in school zoning, now,
we have created one zone, I guess, one new one during my day.
That's the Piney Woods. And, those elementary — usually
considered, can walk to school. Most of our elementary
are of that nature where they can walk to school.
BY MR. WITT:
Q All right. Then, are these factors of the si
importance —
MR. WILLIAMS; (Interposing) I object to all
this leading, if Your Honor please. If Mr. —
BY MR. WITT:
q (Interposing) In your design of junior high
school zones, is there any difference between the factors you
have taken into consideration as compared
A (Interposing) Junior high school sones, usually
larger, because the child is more mature, feel like he can go
icc
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greater distances in safety.
Taylor - Redirect 367
Q is the — does the bus transportation ays test, is
it taken into consideration in elesaantary rones for — zones
for elestentary children?
A In other words, is one factor if they have a way
they can go on the bus, it certainly is helpful, yes.
Q But, do you make any assumptions as to how many
children ride the bus or otherwise?
A As I say, only one I had was the Piney Hoods, that
they would walk.
Q Well, what about with regard to other elementary
schools?
MR. WILLIAMS; I object, if Your Honor please.
He said the only one he has is with regard to Piney Hoods.
THE COURT: Yes, if he doesn't have knowledge of
those matters, wouldn't be permitted to testify.
BY HR. WITT:
q Mr. Taylor, do you have any knowledge with
reference to the means by which children in elementary schools
get to school?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to that as being repetition
if Your Honor please.
THE COURT: Let's see what is the purpose of this
line of inquiry, Mr. Witt?
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368Taylor - Redirect
MR. WITT: He has emphasised busing.
MR. WILLIAMS: He hasn't emphasised anything about
busing, if Your Honor please, hasn't mentioned the word "busing
I object to counsel attempting to lead him.
THE COURT: well, if you have a point, here, if
you wish to have him testify, just state your question; but
avoid suggesting the answer.
BY MR. WITT:
q Mr. Taylor, in deciding upon cones for elementary
schools, do you make any assumptions as to the means by which
roost students go from their home to the school?
MR. WILLIAMS: And that is objected to as being
leading, suggestive, and irrelevant.
THE COURT: Well, he may answer.
THE WITHESSi The assumption is that most elsmenta^y
pupils will walk to school.
BY MR. WITT:
q What's the basis for this assumption?
A usual location of — very few of our zones is
more than a mile where they walk — where they can walk. I
mean, the elementary school buildings are placed by somebody
in that type of a location.
q I direct your attention, now, to the area in which
me were talking, which you were talking about jwftioe high schoj>
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369Taylor - Redirect
zones and feeder zones. You made the statement, I believe, in
response to a question frost Hr. Hi Ilians that it wee Board
policy to have the elementary zones co-terminus with the junior
high school zones. What is the — what’s the reason behind
that?
A Believe my statement whenever practical that was
made co-terminus, and it's several reasons. The projecting of
enrollment is facilitated by not having a split elementary
zone. When we do have a split elementary zone going to two
junior highs, it's difficult to get close.
Another one is the — where we have feeder schools
and a junior high school, the educational program planning is
carried out — I mean that practice is carried out and if you
have a part of an elementary school, you choose two other
junior high, then the teachers would be going to two junior
highs.
And in area of orientation or transition,
elementary to junior high school, the orientation program is
much more effective if all in a given school goes to that
junior high and they have visitation day instead of just
half of them staying home and a third of them going somewhere
else. And, when they have a day you can go, it just makes a
better instructional program. Somatimas it may not be
possible, but if it is possible, it certainly enhances the
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educational program.
q In discussing the dual zones, you made a reference
to a pseudo *one. Have you prepared a map to explain what you
mean by this?
A Well, there's a map over there, and this map here
has — might have been a poor word.
Those three maps may be shown at the same time
with each if they could be.
q Which one do you want?
A i think, all three at the same time would be
have the same principle as the other.
MR. WILLIAMS: I want to state for the record, if
Your Honor please, that the School Board, while it stated they
couldn't find time to prepare pupil locater maps, have found
time to prepare all these detailed visual aids.
BY MR. WITT:
o Mr. Taylor, will you identify the first map to
3 7 0
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your left?
A If it's permissible, I'd like to identify the
one year later solely because we couldn't find the data and
we hope this is accurate. In other words, we found some on
this.
The other one is an exhibit, and we didn t have
the '62-63, so this Is one ye.r leter. Very little chenges
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Taylor - Redirect 371
other than — I mean, no changes other than what’s identified
in the change maps, but very little. But, it serves the
purpose as far as this all.
Now, the map over on the extreme right is the
single zone of grades one through four in 1963-64.
q you make that the next exhibit to your testimony?
THE COURT: Ho. 33.
(Thereupon, the document referred to
above was narked Exhibit Mo. 33 for
identification. Witness Mr. Taylor,
and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
q All right.
A And the center map is a map of the dual sones
that in the elementary grades — that this white pupils in
grades five and six attended and —
q (Interposing) This will be Exhibit Mo. 34 to
your testimony.
THE COURT: Thirty-four.
(Thereupon, the document referred to
above was marked Exhibit No. 34 for
identification. Witness Mr. Taylor,
and received in evidence.)
THE WITNESS: And the one over on the left is
the dual zone with the Negro pupils, grades five and six,
1963-64.
BY MR. WITT:
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Taylor Redirect 372
Q All right. Then, this will be Exhibit 35.
(Thereupon, the document referred to
above was marled Exhibit No. 35 for
identification. Witness Mr. Taylor,
and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT
0 Now, Exhibit 35, is this the last year of dual
zones in the elementary schools?
A One through four. Then, five through six the
next year, we had one sore year.
Q One sore year?
A One more year.
0 But these were the same zones that are — these
the same zones that were in effect in *64?
A '65.
Q •65?
A I can't answer that. This is the one that was
supposed to be in effect in *63 and '64. Would be very little
change if any made. I doubt if any change at all. I haven't
researched that.
Q Then Exhibit 34, is this the next-to-the-last
year, then, of dual zones for white elementary schools?
A Yes, sir.
Q And then Exhibit 33, these are the unitary zones
that were for all elementary schools that were in effect at
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1 373
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Taylor - Redirect
the sane tine?
A Grades one through four, yes, sir.
Q All right. Will you explain Exhibit 35?
A That's the one next to ae?
0 This is the one next to you.
A Exhibit 35, supposed to be three colors there.
Now, got a yellow. To my interpretation, yellow color is
seven, eleven, two, eight, four, one, thirteen. And got a
bluish looking color that's twelve, fifteen, six, and ten;
and fourteen is another shade of sowsthing else out there.
Q Brown.
A Brown. Now, the yellow color, seven, eight, nine,
is representing zones that were predominantly the sane zone
in the dual zone as it is in the single zone in both this map
and the center map. The ones that's yellow are almost sub
stantially the suae as the single zones adopted.
Now, the ones in this green is a zone that has
what 1 call a pseudo thing in it. In other words, the zone
that was the same race as the yellow, that map there, is the
black race. Like zone three, which is Davenport zone, it
covers — pseudo part, a lot of non-area of students that
will not attend that because of a different race. So, three
is covering part of it and six which is the old Fort Cheatham
zone has got zones that are adjacent to these concentrated
|I
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Taylor - Redirect 374
zones.
Have this area and it's No. 12 up there. There is
Spear8 Avenue, covers that area north of the river, but have
few students going to Spears Avenue other than around where
Spears is located in that zone.
Q All right. Can you identify on the other nap to
compare 1 2 under the single-zone system?
A Now, those three zones over there in the single
zone, Spears, Alton Park, and Brown, are the three resulting
single zones.
Q All right. Then, this black zone labeled 12,
does it have — this black zone labeled 1 2 , is there any
comparable zone to this zone now under the unitary system?
A No. Those that had the covered area of opposite
race, nothing similar to that one now. One that covered only
one race are similar, are identical, almost. Only one race
attended school before and after they were zoned.
q Then when you use the word "pseudo” with reference
to a zone like this, what did you mean?
A Covered an area that didn't get any pupils from —
I said might have been a poor word.
0 All right. In other words, are you saying that
12 had few black pupils in that zone, is that correct?
HR. WILLIAMS: I object to this leading.
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Taylor - Redirect 375
MR. WITT: I ara sorry. All right, excuse me.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Do you have any idea about how many black students
there were in this sone 1 2 approximately?
A
Q
area?
A
U
A
About a hundred.
How many white elementary schools were there in the
I'd say, guess 900.
All right.
Mine hundred.
Q Would you refer to your exhibit with reference to
three — with reference to the number of students in Normal
Park as of the tenth day of school, 1970-71?
A 1970-71, 535.
Q All right. Now, G. Russell Brown, I believe, is
in tliis same area. How many students in G. Russell Brown?
A Three thirty-seven.
Q All right. Now, continuing — call your attention
to the area labeled five.
A Yes, sir.
Q What school zone did this involve?
A That involved the East Fifth Street, one through
six.
Q This zone — did this zone run all the way to the
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Taylor - Redirect 376
city limits to the north?
A Yes, sir.
Q And why is it so large?
A Zone 5 and zone 9 covered — had to cover the
entire area. I mean, they had facilities to cover the entire
area.
In other words, whole city had to be oovered by
two sets of zones in that group, and some of it had sparse
population that would attend that school because of race.
Q All right. What was the capacity of Orchard
Knob Elementary?
A Orchard Knob Elementary?
Q The proximate capacity?
A Twelve hundred.
Q And then, this zone was drawn at the time when
you were only concerned with black students for that school?
A Yes, this was a black —
Q (Interposing) I didn't hear your answer.
A Yes, that was a — black pupils go to that zone -
that school.
Q This is pert of the dual zone system?
A Yes.
Q Was drawn only for black pupils?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to repetition, if Tour
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Honor please. I think m sure all pretty certain that
thing on that black chart was drawn for black people.
Taylor - Redirect 377
every-
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WITT:
Q All right. Now, what is school 6 ?
A That's the Fort Cheatham area.
Q Call — direct your attention to your record there
with reference to the pupils in Fort Cheatham. How many pupiln
were there in Fort Cheatham in 1963-64?
A Eighty-seven.
Q Then, it covered an area all the way to the
Georgia line, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q Why was the area so large?
A Similar to the other. Some zone — zone had to
cover the area.
q Is there any zone now in the system under the
unitary setup that's at all similar to the zone for Fort
Cheatham when it was for an all-black school?
A NO.
Q And why not?
A
zone.
It's some white schools in that — underneath that
Q All right. What white schools are there in the
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Port Cheatham zone?
A I would say East Lake Elementary, Oak Grove, and
maybe part of Clifton Hills.
Taylor - Redirect 378
Q Cedar Hills in that sons?
A Cedar Hills is over here in Davenport sone across
the road at that stage.
q All right. What shite schools — elementary
schools were there in the Orchard Knob zone?
A Glenwood, Ridgedale, some of Highland Park and
some of Hemlock.
Q
believe?
All right. Now, 13 is the Trotter School, 1
A That’s correct.
Q And this was an all-black school?
A Tes, sir.
Q How does this, the Trotter sone, lines in 1963-84
under the dual system compare with the zone lines today?
A It's roughly close other than Piney Woods, other
than that single sone over there. It’s practically the sane.
Q The single sone is practically the same?
A
here.
For the same comparable year you are talking about
Q Why are they approximately the same?
A Well, the yellow zones, both maps, this one and
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the center one represent an area that is adjacent school sones
that are of one race. And, sene of then are black and sons
are white — not of one race, and if they were sound before
the single some to fit the capacity and the hazards and the
other criteria, we use this zoning.
And then they were all of one race, they are the
same before and after if we apply the sane policy. Couldn’t
be anything but the sane if we applied the sane policies.
q But, the policies that you were applying before tiu
unitary system —
MR. wiLLIAMSi (Interposing) Object to the
379
leading.
MR. WITT* I beg your pardon?
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WITT;
q But, when you designed the zona lines before the
unitary system, wasn’t there a factor involved?
^ well, you had the black and the tbite was a
factor before? but that factor was ruled inoperative if there
only one race in the consecutive sones. What I an trying to
say, over here in this area that’s closer to as, 7, 1 1 , 2 , 8 ,
4, 1, and 13, they were made up of black children. And, the
policy we have of zoning, if they applied correctly before,
that have to be the same after we had single zones by the
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policy, because they*re all of one race, if this is arranged
so they could go to school to capacity and distance haaards
and many other things.
q The Trotter sons was the ammm. Has the Trotter
zone — I mean the Trotter School in the same location in
this Exhibit 35 as it is over hers?
A Yes, yes.
q Is that true of the other schools in those areas?
A Yes.
q The Trotter sons to the east, I believe, you
testified was Chattanooga Creek?
A Yes.
q Chattanooga Creek is still there?
A Yes.
q And, that zone — was that zone line there had
anything to do with race?
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I object to this, if Your
Honor please. This is repetitious and also leading and
suggestive.
THE COURT: He nay answer the last question.
THE WITNESS: Race didn't have anything to do
with the Chattanooga Creek being there, if that's the
question.
BY MR. WITT:
Taylor - Redirect 380
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381Taylor - Redirect
q Thm zone line to the west of Trotter School have
any reference to race?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object, if Your Honor please.
That is c cm elusory in nature.
THE COURT: That's a matter of opinion .
MR. WILLIAMS: It's for the Court to conclude.
THE COURT: Matter of opinion.
BY MR. WITT:
q All right. Is 13A — is it today substantially
an all-black school?
A Yes.
q What about the other schools marked — other zones
colored in yellow, are they substantially all black today?
A Yes.
q would you compare approximately these school zone
lines of the schools in yellow with the same elementary
school zone lines as they existed under the unitary zone lines
approximately? Let's start with St. Elmo.
A Does that have a number on it over there?
q Yes, sir, it's 31.
well, that's St. Elmo — is the question for me to
name those zones over there?
q Compare zone 31 on map Exhibit 33 visually with
the zone lines on No. 10 on Exhibit No. 35. Compare them and
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state the differences.
A No. 7, which is A. J. Henry up at the corner.
q No, no, please, St. Elmo, No. 10.
A In other words, you want the blue-green ones,
whatever color that is? St. Elmo here is a sons that is
covering a black mone that's covering a white pupil one of
those — use the word -pseudo." Over there a line is drawn
between the two schools. You've got the Sanderson School and
you've got the St. Elmo School, a school in this sane and so
over there you have two zones for this area here. You have
the Sanderson and the St. Elmo zone for No. 10.
Q Then, your zone 10 here under your dual zones in
1963-64, how many zones does it have under the unitary system?
A Two zones.
q And why is this?
A Because it was two races. This was a black zone
covering a white race, and when you had two school buildings
in a -- when you had two school buildings split, split the
difference and do something and you have two zones here,
two attendance centers under that zone, St. Elmo and Sanderson
Q Now —
THE COURT: (Interposing) Very much further
examination? If so, I thought we'd take a recess at
point.
3 8 2
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Taylor - Redirect 383
‘> MR. WITT: It suits me right now.
1
THE COURT: Let’s take a 10-minute recess. i
4 (Thereupon, a recess was taken.) i|
1
5 BY MR. WITTi 1
(i Q Mr. Taylor, I direct your attention to Exhibit No.
7 35, the area marked 14. Wee this a zone under the duel-rone
system? i
<♦ A Yes, sir, that was an optional zone for the black
in people who lived east of the ridge. They could attend any
11 of these other school zones that they chose.
12 Q The black students, you are saying, that the black i)
l > students that live in this area, what schools could they go
i
14 to?
A Any of them, to my knowledge, any of them.
1(1 Q Was there a black school in that area—
17 A No, sir.
1H Q There any zoned school, elementary school zone j
111 that looks at all like this zone?
20 A No.
21 Q Now, Mr. Taylor, I direct your attention to Exhibi :
‘»*> 31. Can you see it all right?
22 A I believe so.
24 U Let me turn it. Now, explain how you put this
22 together , what you attempted to show.
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Taylor - Redirect 384
A The sane color scheme goes to both naps, the ones
that's white — I mean yellow over there, are sooes that's
basically the mmm before and after dual a ones and single aooei ,
basically the same zone.
And, the ones in the green cover a different raoe
school and that particular map there, covering black schools.
Q All right, 15 is the Normal Park?
A Yes, covered black school where 3 is covering
Spears Avenue.
q Then compare — you are saying — are you saying
that 15 zone under the dual-zone system is substantially the
same as it is today?
A Yes, it's the single-zone system.
q This would be on the unitary system, would be
Normal Park, is 24 on Exhibit 33?
A Yes.
q And why are these zones substantially the sane?
A because they cover the area that was predominantly
entirely one race and when they did, if they are zoned to
capacity, then it was — situation would result, be the same
in both of them. If you had a mixture of races in there, then
you'd have a different arrangement.
q What was the capacity of Normal Park in 1963-64?
A Approximately 600, somewhere in that neighborhood.
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0 What's its enrolleant on ths tenth day of school*
1970-71, your Exhibit 37
A Bslisvs I said 535 — 535.
Q Now, ths sons line of Normal Park to ths south and
to the vast was determined by what?
A That's in ths — what I classifisd as deterrents
to travel. It was — gets up there an ths higher level uphills
and so forth. It's —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) Well, I object to
Taylor - Redirect 385
attempts to lead.
BY HR. WITT:
Q What — what is the limitation?
A That's the river there on that side.
0 What determined the zone line to the north?
A City limits at that time.
Q The school — has the school been increased
size?
A The plant?
G Normal Park?
A No, not to my knowledge.
Q All right. Now, to contrast, take 18.
A That's St. Elmo zone.
Q All right. Tor what, black or white?
A White.
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Taylor - Redirect
Q All right. Mow, compare it to the St. lino acne.
single sone now, 31.
A X naan it's not any oonparison.
0 And what's the explanation for that?
A It eowered the schools of different race, this tine
the black school's underneath.
q All right. Do you has* any school sons in the
system now that looks at all liku 18 whan it was for white
pupils under the old dual sones?
A Mo, sir.
Q All right. Mow, what about 5 on Exhibit 34, tdiat
does it represent, Clifton Hills?
A Clifton Hills.
0 And this was a white school?
A It cowered in the northern part there in Henloak,
NO. 11, and St. Elno, those three schools cowered all southwest
Chattanooga, 11, 5, and 18, which had considerable black
population.
Q All right. Bow, how aany black schools were
included within the area cowered by 5, 1 1 , and 18?
A Two, three, four, fiwe, six — six or seven.
0 All right. Could you naee then?
A Trotter, Bell.
Q Trotter. Now, I an referring, Mr. Taylor, to Mo.
RICHARD SMITH. OFFICIAL C O U R T REPORTER
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
Taylor - Redirect 387
5, now, not —
A (Interposing) I thought you said 5, «, and 10 —
Q (Interposing) Take it all back. All right, Trottej.
A Trotter. Mow, you said all black schools that was
under that color, what you are saying?
Q That's right.
A So, Trotter, Bell, Donaldson, Howard, Chattanooga
Avenue, night be a part of J. A. Henry.
q Sanderson?
A Sanderson, yes, and Davenport. I didn't Mention
Davenport, X don't believe.
q Mo. How, is there anything in cane on between the
areas covered yellow —
KB. WILLIAMSi (Interposing) That's objected to
as being — I'm sorry.
BY MR. WITT:
q Is there — is there anything in cannon between
areas covered yellow an the nap. Exhibit 35, and Exhibit 34?
MR. WILLIAHSi Objected to as repetitious. He has
already testified that those represent sones that are exactly
like they were under the dual sones.
THE COURT: That*s what I understood.
THE WITNESS: My answer on — yes.
THE COURTt That was misunderstood.
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Taylor - Redirect 388
THE WITNESS: I said my answer was to the question
that they covered a s o m that vai one race and not thi* other*
that they were substantially the sane as two* but they covered
the race, was the major feature.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Any other — excuse me.
A was the major thing.
Q Any other factor?
A On those yellow?
Q On these small zones * the yellow ones. Did they
have any reference to the density of population based upon
black or white?
A Well, the size of them, capacity* building* would
have to -- little to do with that. In other words* scswi of the
real small have a lot of people in them.
q All right. Does area 13, Trotter area* do you know
approximately how many students are in that area today as
compared with 1963-64? I refer you to your 3 — well, would yo»
refer to your Exhibit 3, Exhibit 3, *63-64, Trotter?
A rive hundred thirteen, *63-64.
Q All right. How many now?
A Three hundred eleven.
Q In Trotter now?
A Yes, sir.
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Taylor - Redirect 309
Q
figures.
All right. Look at St. Elmo and give the eaae
A *63-64, St. Blmo had 360.
Q How many?
A Three hundred sixty.
Q All right.
A And now they have 376.
Q All right. The Trotter — the Trotter School is
approximately the same size today aa it was?
A The plant is.
0 The plant, the building itself?
A Still the same plant, yes, sir.
0 Does it serve — have the people that It served
changed any substantially in number?
A Piney Woods has carved out the corner down there,
but another — yes — point, this map is today’s date, not
date back then. So, you see seme lines and things that’s on
this map that wasn't in *63-64.
Q All right.
A That was swamp over where that housing project was
built, but they got some streets there.
q And, looking at the elementary school sone map
as it is today, can you — are there any similarities that
you can identify in sone lines on this map as compared to eithe::
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Taylor - Redirect
one of the other two?
390
A The attendance zones over there on the single nap
that cover one race are similar to the ones over here that
covered one race; where they covered dual races, mixture of the
races, difference in the zone, then there's some difference in
the zone. And, the zone that's in this blue-green, if it's
called a Negro school or black school, the area around that
attendance center will be of that raoe — blade race.
The fringe areas usually covering a non-black race |-
I mean, the white race, and vice versa — two maps. So, out
of those blue-green ones, a section has been cut off for the
attendance centers for that zone, and it's usually — it is
near that attendance center, and it is another race.
Q Mr. Taylor, I hand you the Exhibit Mo. 1, which is
the dual zones for elementary schools. Is that for thifce
schools or black schools?
A White schools.
q All right. How, does it have any substantial
resemblance to the single-zone map set up as is set forth on
exhibit 33?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to that, Your Honor please.
That's a conclusion to be reached by the Court. His opinion
with regard to that would not be an expert opinion, just be an
opinion which would not be admissible. In other words, he is
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asking him whether this resembles this and —
MR. WITT: (Interposing) I would suggest if there
are any experts in zoning —
THE COURTi (Interposing) Hell, he may answer.
Taylor - Redirect 3S1
BY MR. WITT:
Q Mr. Taylor, perhaps I should ask you this: Are
they the 8asye, that map and this map?
A No, no, they are not.
Q All right. Turn over on the other side, please.
sir.
MR. WILLIAMS: I will stipulate the other side is
not the same either, if Your Honor please. That was a dual
zone, and this, they have called the single zone.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WITT: Thank you.
MR. WILLIAMS: I do not intend by that to stipulate
that there are not numerous zones on there that are the same,
but the total map is not the same, I will stipelate.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Mr. Taylor, this perhaps is repetitious, but to
sum up with regard to this particular map, look at Exhibit 33.
Were these zone lines drawn without regard to raoe?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to that, if Your Honor
please. That calls for a conclusion and his testimony in that
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Taylor - Redirect 392
regard would be inadmissible and incompetent.
THE COURT: Well, be can state to the extent he
may have participated, to what extent he may have considered
race in drawing any boundary lines he may have participated in.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Mister —
A (Interposing) Answer the question best of my
knowledge, race wasn't considered in the drawing of those
maps, the people who drew them.
Q All right. In the course of your redirect — I
mean, in your cross examination, Mr. Williams made some
reference to affirmative obligation to integrate and asked you
if you were aware of that. What is your understanding of the
Board's responsibility with regard to affirmative obligation?
MR. WILLIAMS: That is objected to as being highly
incompetent.
THE COURT: Yes. Whatever his opinion is of that
wouldn't change the lew.
MR. WITT: But, if his answer that he gave, seems
to m e , is to make any relevance at all, we need to know what
he thought he was being asked.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, he is asking him about his
understanding of the Board's obligation, if Your Honor please,
which has no relevance here whatsoever.
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1 Taylor - Redirect 393
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MR. WITT: That was the question posed to hie in
that way, and he answered it. That presumes that he understood
the question.
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THE COURT: You mean on his cross examination?
MR. WITTi Yes.
THE COURT: Redirect your question to his cross
examination, then.
BY MR. WITT:
q Mr. Taylor, in your cross examination, Mr. Williams
asked you about efforts made to carry out the affirmative
obligation to integrate the schools. In answering that question,
what did you mean, how did you understand the affirmative
obligation concept?
A I believe my answer was that to my knowledge the
Board had made steps — was obligated to make steps to affirma
tive that they were zoning was based on the principles of peopln
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attending to the nearest school zone irregardless of race and
race wasn't to be considered in zoning people. And, if race
is to be considered, that wasn’t my interpretation to consider
race, so —
Q (Interposing) Did — do you understand that pairing
is an affirmative, an evidence of an affirmative obligation?V .
Do you understand it that way?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to that, if Your Honor t
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please. This is patently a waste of tine.
Taylor - Redirect 394
THE COURT: Tea, sir, don't lead.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Mr. Taylor, can you give me an example, a specific
example, of what you mould consider an affirmative obligation
to desegregate?
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, I object.
That is incompetent.
THE COURT: I don't, Mr. Witt, don't follow your —
MR. WITT: (Interposing) He —
THE COURT: (Continuing) — line of inquiry.
MR. WITT: He has referred to — used a legal term
in asking a question of Mr. Taylor, and Mr. Taylor — I didn't
object to it at the time, perhaps should have. Mr. Taylor
answered it, and that answer is in the record, and I am just
trying to put in the record what Mr. Taylor meant when he
answered that question.
THE COURT5 Well, you may ask him that, but to go
beyond and ask him to give illustrations of his concept of
what would be affirmative action would not appear to be
relevant at this particular point. Perhaps it will later on.
HR. WITT: My purpose in that, perhaps it was an
error, attempting to get him — was to get a specific example
because I thought that would be better than some description.
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Taylor - Redirect
BY MR. WITTr
395
Q Mr. Taylor, you war* — recall on that part of
your cross examination that was directed toward the optional
zone for the junior high that involved Glenwood, do you recall
that part of your cross examination?
A I recall some of it. I recall talking about it.
Q You recall that part of your examination where you
were being questioned about the capacity of Orchard Knob Junior
High at the time of the optional zone for Glenwood was put into
effect?
A Tea, sir.
0 Did you have a part in the decision to recommend
an optional zone for Glenwood to the Board?
A I had a part in providing the figures of what we
expected the enrollment in that area, and it was out of the
housing.
0 Then, was it your responsibility to provide the
Board and the staff with figures with rsgard to Orchard Knob?
A Yas.
q I believe you testified that Orchard Knob was
capacity, is that correct?
A Yes, that was the question, that area.
0 In recommending the establishment of that optional
zone, do you recall any discussions —
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Taylor - Redirect 396
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) May it please the
Court, this is objected to as leading and suggestive. This
witness has not testified that he recommended the establishment
of that optional sons or that it was even reoc— ssnded.
THE COURT: Well, I as having, Mr. Witt, I an
having difficulty in following. What is the point you are
trying to get to at this time? Perhaps that would help move it
along.
MR. WITT: The bases for the initiation of and
implementation of the optional sons and the relationship and
the factors that were identified at that tine.
THE COURT: Well, can you just ask hie what was,
to his knowledge, what was the basis upon which any optional
zones were established, is that what —
MR. WITT: (Interposing) I am going to relate this
to the affirmative obligation.
THE COURT: Well, let's take one step at a tine.
You want to ask him as to what his knowledge is about why
optional zones were established in three instances, is that it,
or you talking about just one instance?
MR. WITT: The optional zones that 1 an speaking
of at the moment ia the optional zona that had to do with
Glenwood and the junior high schools.
THE COURT: All right.
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BY MR. WITT;
q Did you have a part in preparing thia recommendation
this recommendation to the Board?
A I would aay I did, yea.
q Who elae waa a part of thia?
A Superintendent had a major role in all zoning, very
difficult job to do, soning. It takea the beat of know-how of
everybody concerned; but it waa another person that was on undei
my supervision that worked in thia area the moat and at that
time I think Dr. Douthitt waa the employee that — coordinator
of school organisation that c a w under his control. Bo dlrectljj
worked at preparing that.
Q To your knowledge, did thia recommendation relate
to race and increasing desegregation?
A To my knowledge, it waa a capacity, of how to house
the children in that area. Orchard Knob at that stage of the
game was overcrowded and options were made. Could have drawn
them to Hardy or a great distance away, but our practice hadn't
been to impose that great a hardship on the people. So, we
made an optional zone.
q were you attempting to desegregate any school?
A In my work, I wasn't attempting to desegregate the
school. I waa just attempting to house the people.
Q All right. In the operation of that optional zona,
Taylor - Redirect 337
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398
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Taylor - Redirect
did any blacka in that area go to formerly all-white junior
high schools?
A I would say they did.
Q Do you have any basis foor this atatenant?
A You could look at sone of the naps. We see sone
blacks living over there, going over to other schools — pupil
locator naps.
Q Did the inplenantatlon of this particular optional
sone have any effect, then, on desegregation?
A Yes.
q All right. Nr. Nilliana asked you to cite one
situation, any one situation where there was a black school,
was formerly all black, to which a substantial lumber of whites
have been assigned through zoning and where the School Board
required the whites to go, and I believe your answer was that
you couldn’t think of any such school.
Mow, why is there not such a school?
A We do not have attendance zones where there's a
large number of whites living in that sone that's predominately
black.
Q Then, what is your answer?
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, he has already given the
answer. I object, if Your Honor please.
BY MR. WITT:
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Taylor - Redirect 399
Q Do you know of any way that tha school Board could
have achieved that kind of result with regard to one school and
in doing so doing it without recognition of race?
A I do not. In other words, they'd have to live in
the zone to be a mixture — all one race, it wouldn't result
in a mixture.
Q In discussing the possibility of pairing Piney
Woods and Cedar Hills, the distance between these two schools
was discussed. Do you recall this part of your cross examina-
tion?
A Yes, yes.
Q Yes?
A Yes, sir.
Q How did you find out how far it was free Piney
woods to Cedar Hill?
A Measured with an automobile.
Q And approximately how far is it?
A About one and two-tenths miles.
Q would you describe the route that would have to be
followed to go from Piney Woods to Cedar Hill?
A We don't have Piney Woods on either one of those.
Q It's on this one.
A No, that's Cedar Hill.
Q Approximately where on $he map is Piney Woods?
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Taylor - Redirect 400
A That section there where those trees —
HR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) If he's going to show
I'd rather he come down.
BY HR. WITT:
Q If you would.
THE COURT: He can just leave it on.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Describe it, if you would.
A Piney woods is located — Wilson Road and Hooker
Road, Piney Woods School. And, you'd go Hooker Road in a
southeasterly direction, nore east around Hooker Road and
across a fairly narrow bridge here at this Chattanooga Creek
and follow Hooker Road till you run into Bast Forty-ninth
Street.
And then, that is the edge of the Cedar Hill
attendance group. Cedar Hill School is on the west side of
the zone. And from Cedar Hill School to that school, approxi
mately one and two-tenths miles. That's from school to school.
Back over in the zone, it's larger — longer than that.
Q I didn't understand you.
A Back over — since the Cedar Hill School is on
the west side of the pupil population, if you went to the
center of the pupil population, it would be considerably nore
than one and two-tenths miles.
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Taylor - Redirect
Q Would this be of any importance if you paired
schools?
A As I stated, it would make a considerable distance
for people to go to school if they paired, if the cones were
not very small zones.
Q Was the — is this — do you take these kinds of
factors into consideration in designing school zones?
A You try to — not factors on pairing schools, we
haven't had any pairing schools, but attendance center — school
zone should be so that people can — accessible routes of
travel, accessible to the center, and that is unless bus
transportation is provided like in the outer regions.
0 In the area that you were describing, do you know
if there's any bus transportation available?
A Public transportation?
Q Yes.
A That goes from Cedar Hill to — on Hooker Road?
Q Yes.
A I do not know.
0 Mr. Taylor, I will now shift to that, part of the
questions Mr. Williams asked you about the prefab schools at
RiVermont. Do you know whether or not the students at the
DuPont School are transported?
A In other words, where the County transports
iI
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1 Taylor - Redirect
students to DuPont School?
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A I would say a large majority — large majority of
the county people are transported. Those that live right around
the building, I would say, are not transported.
0 Do you know if there were any — how many students
were continued at the DuPont School after annexation?
A I can't give you the exact figure. It decreased
each year. They tell us we can take less next year and les3
next year but I can't give you the figure.
So, the first year they almost all that wanted to
go back could. And then it was less, and I don't know what the
figures will be next year; but, they are getting their
facilities are getting full and county facilities are beginning
to capacity and they don't have room for city students there
in that area.
(j do you know why the people in the Rivermont area
were promised that they would be bused, that they woulu be
bused to school?
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, I object to
this. This is just drawing on, and that's entirely irrelevant
to any issue here.
MR. WITT: Mr. Williams, you have asked a question
about busing in the city school system and busing in the
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city school system is of recent origin. And, I ae merely trying
to explain how it came into being.
THE COURT: Well, he may ask it.
THE WITNESS: The reason for busing in the annexed
areas that the City Commission promised people that have the
sano benefits they have now and they had the benefits of bus
transportation to school that was provided by the City Commission.
Made the money possible to provide it.
Taylor - Redirect *03
BY MR. WITT:
q Mr. Taylor, do you recall the last time that the
city school system built a new school?
A Clifton Hills.
q What year was that?
A I guess it would be — this is the third year of
operation, I believe.
q You recall the circumstances that required that
that school be built?
A Had a fire, sir.
Q What was the — immediately preceding that, what
was the last new school that was built?
A Guess Piney Woods.
q And when was it completed and occupied?
A We opened Piney Woods January of *64.
q All right. Do you recall the county-wide bond
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Taylor - Redirect 404
issue on November the 3rd, 1964?
You recall the fact that there was a bond issue
vote?
A I can't relate it to that date. I know we had bond
issues, had three or four; but I can't relate it to a given
date.
Q Do you — can you testify as to when or how many
bonds issues were successful in the last ten years in the city
system?
MR. WILLIAMS: Objected to as being irrelevant.
THE COURT: Yes. i don't see the relevance of
that.
MR. WITT: He was asked about new construction and
planning for new construction. And, there hasn't been any, and
he was asked about portable classrooms. And, this explains
the adjustment — I mean, part of the general background.
THE COURT: All right. Let him answer.
THE WITNESS: I know the last three or four that
have failed to pass, and they have been about two years apart.
We haven't had any recently that passed.
MR. WITT: All right. Thank you, Mr. Taylor.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q Do you handle the financing for the school
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Taylor - Recross 405
system?
A (Witness moves head from side to side.)
Q You don't know anything about whether bond issues
could be floated or not? You don't have any personal knowledge
of that?
A Finances of the city government?
Q Yes.
A No, sir, I do not fool with finances of city
government.
Q Clifton Hills, this last new school that was
built, maybe instead of doing that, I'd better go back.
All that you testified to on April 14 with regard
to these school sones still remains the same? You don't
intend to change your testimony in that regard, do you?
A I don't have any intention to.
Q All right, sir. What you had here in this, in
this zone, this southeast — I mean southwest Chattanooga
was a — was a dual zone which was occupied by both white and
black people, that's correct, isn't it, the same square mileage
of real estate occupied by both black and white people?
A Now, you are asking me a question?
o That's what you had, wasn't it? I am —
A (Interposing) Yes, yes. we have a section there.
Q And, where did the white people live in that area?
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Taylor - Recross 406
A The white people lived around the St. ELao School.
0 Lived in this area around here, didn't they?
A Yes.
Q And, where did the blech people — and did the
black people or not live in all the rest of the area?
A That1s right.
q And, that included the area up in here, didn't it,
that triangle-shaped area up in there?
A Yes.
0 So that white people lived in the area circumscribed
by the general part of this blue portion on the left diagram
on Exhibit 32 and the blacks lived in all the rest?
A Yeah.
g Now, you have already said that the policy in
building schools has always been to build the school in the
heart of a neighborhood where the people are, in proximity to
where the people are, that is correct, isn’t it?
A The two schools that I mentioned.
q Of any school?
A Of any school, that should have been the practice
of building schools as if they are walking type of situations,
to build them where the people are, that's correct.
q And, defined as near as possible, the center of
a residential concentration and put the school there so the
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that the most people could walk to it?
Taylor - P.ecross 407
A Convenience.
0 All right, sir. Now, then pursuant to that, the
school in the white zone was not located over here in the center
◦f the zone, was it? This is the white dual zone for —
A (Interposing) Yes.
Q (Continuing) — Elmo?
A At the year '62-63?
Q Yes, sir, and prior thereto.
A No, sometime in the pest, white zone was at
Trotter, also.
Q Oh, there was a white zone at Trotter?
A Trotter used to be all white, that neighborhood.
Q Oh, I see.
A So, a lot of those have ahanged from one race to
the other, but the building has stayed the sane place, and
people moved in the same homes there, and people go to school
and just who's there goes to school there, been the situation.
Q All right. Which was the oldest building, Trotter
or St. Elrao?
A I would ssy St. Elmo, some sections — some section
might be newer sometime or another, but it's got some old
section to it.
Q So, at one time, this area that is shown in orange
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Taylor - Recross 408
on the left diagram was a white area, and Trotter was a white
school?
A Yes, sometime in the past, Trotter — St. Elmo,
I mean, Alton Park area down there, that was Alton Park.
Q And, so, then, the Trotter School was built here
to accommodate those people?
A Yes. And school built across the ridge to accoomoda
the people that live over there.
Q And, the school at St. Elmo was built to aocoramodati
the white people that lived in that area?
A People who lived there were white at that time —
te
students.
Q Mow, than — and so as of 1962-63, this school had
been turned over to blacks?
A Black children lived in that area and went to that
school closest to them.
Q All right. And, the St. Elmo School, then, was
the school for this entire area, and it was located in the
heart of the white population?
A White population and colored in the rest of the
area.
U As of 1962-63, Trotter or Bell and Calvin Donaldson
and Chattanooga Avenue?
A No, that's Sanderson.
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Q That's Sanderson? All right — vers located in the
heart of Negro residential concentrations, were they not?
A Yes, Negroes lived there in that area. Sanderson
used to be white, also. In fact, before the people moved in —
q (Interposing) But, they were located there in the
area of those populations and the sons lines were drawn to
ac commode te ?
A Black people located around those school buildings,
zone lines.
y Weren't some of those school buildings built for
black people?
A I guess Bell was predominantly black there when
it was built.
Q How about Calvin Donaldson?
A I can't answer that one.
q All right. Then, under the old dual system, although
the schools were located according to proximity, it was the
custom of the School Board to convert the school from white
to black under the old dual zone system when the black popula
tion got predominant, is that right?
A Yes, I would say that was the practice.
Q All right. Then, what would be done with the
white children?
A Well, the white children moved out of the area or
Taylor - Recross
W I C H A W L ) S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
did something.
q Well, i£ they didn't Move out of the erea, they
wouldn't all move out of the area at once, would they, not
the same day, would they?
A It would be pretty close unison if they did.
g But, if they didn't move out — let's suppose that
all the white children didn’t move out of this Trotter area —
this Trotter area, where would they have gone to school under
the old dual rone?
A They would have gone to St. Elmo.
g St. Elmo? So, that distance wasn't such a factor,
then, was it, in that regard?
A The majority of the people, though, attended it
was.
q But, when it came to a question of maintaining
segregation, distance was not a primary factor, was it?
A You need to word your question again.
q in terms, when it came to a question of maintaining
segregation before the dual zones were abolished, distance was
not a primary or controlling factor, was it?
A Yes, the distance — tried to make it ae convenient
as possible under the regulation we had to work under. Some
times they were long distance, sometimes they were short.
q Yes. And, if it came to a question of a white
Taylor - Recroas *1U
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child — if, after Trotter was converted to a black, school, the
white child in that area would travel the greater distance to
St. Elmo without any difficulty over the ridge, wouldn't they?
He didn't go over the ridge — difficulty getting
Oh. Well, were there ways of getting there?
You can go around one end, go around the other end.
Aren't there access roads?
Two roads down at the bottom.
And one up at the top?
One up around, one in front of Lookout Junior High
School.
q And, it takes about five to ten minutes to drive,
doesn’t it, from Trotter to —
A (Interposing) I can't —
q (Continuing) — St. Elmo? Sir?
A You should get there in five, ten minutes.
q All right, sir. Now, then, going to your Exhibit
31, we find that what actually happened was that as of '62-63
when school desegregation began, you adopted the exact same
zone for the black Trotter School, the black Hell, and the black
Donaldson that you had before, didn't you?
A That's right.
q And they wound up with every one of those schools
Taylor - Recross 4
A
there.
Q
A
<*'►W
Q
A
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Taylor - Recross 4 1 2
still all black?
A That's right.
q Didn't they? So that then your racial zones as
they existed in 1962-63 conformed to racial residential patterns,
didn't they? Your school zones conformed to racial residential
patterns, didn't they?
A They conformed to the people who lived in that —
near that school.
Q And since those patterns were segregated, they
conformed to those?
A Those that were — that which are almost identical.
Q They are identical, you have drawn them identical?
A Yes.
Q Now, then, while you don't show St. Elmo as being
identical, the reason it isn't is that you draw a new racial
line for the Sanderson School, isn't it?
A Yeah, line was drawn between Sanderson and St.
Elmo.
You adopted that line in your unitary zones,
didn't you?
A That * s correct.
q And, what that came out with was 100 percent
black enrollment for Sanderson and 100 percent black enrollment
for St. Elmo in the first year of desegregation, didn't it?
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Taylor - Recross 41i
A I thought St. Elmo had s ob© of the opposite race,
but maybe it didn't.
Q Wait a minute. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I ara
leading you wrong on that.
In the first — you are right. What that came out
with was 6 blacks in St. Elmo and 100 percent black enrollment
for Sanderson in the first year of desegregation. That's true,
isn't it?
A Yes. I mean —
Q (Interposing) So then, wouldn't you say that at
least that stone line that you drew cutting across St. Elmo
there was drawn along the line of the racial pattern there even
in the course of drawing the unitary zone? You'd have to say
that, wouldn't you?
A It resulted in that.
q Yes, sir. Now, then, so that what actually
happened in this zone was that as of 1962, 1963, you had —
you had four zones, three of which are exclusively black,
following racial patterns, and on© of which had a black racial
concentration in common with a white racial concentration,
that is correct?
A That's right.
Q And, with regard to the white zoning patterns,
you had the sane thing except that the entire thing was zoned
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for white children; but the school was located in the area of
white residential concentration?
A Yes.
q That's correct? So, insofar as the dual zones were
concerned in creating your unitary zones, what you did •— what
you did was in reference to the blade, dual zone was to carve
out the white zone for St. Elmo School. And, in reference to
the white school zone, what you did was to leave — carve out
one, two, three, four black zones and leave — and leave that
portion of the white zone where all of the white children lived,
wasn't that the effect of it?
A That was the effect of it.
g Yes.
A That was the only effect you could have had in
tiie situation. If you go back to the other map over here —
q (Interposing) Well, let us examine that. There
could have been sone arrangement. There could have been some
arrangement whereby the zone was rearranged so as to include
some of these — some of these white children in four and three
and possibly six, couldn't they?
MR. WITT: May it please the Court., here he is
again at the time he was asking the Court, asking us not to
pay any attention to race. He is now asking us to pay
* • •. e ;*■attention to race.
Taylor - Recross 414
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Taylor - Recross 4 1 5
THE COURT: The question is directed to the last
answer of the witness. In that respect, I think it would be
competent as a matter of cross examination.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q The zone lines could have been drawn so as to
include some white children in at least same of those black —
contiguous black areas, couldn't they?
A I have said — previously testified an area like
you have there, two, three, four, and five and one, that it's
made up of one race. And, if they are — before the dual zones,
if you applied the principles of zoning to those before and
apply them afterwards, since it is of only one race, the
resulting zones will be Identical.
If you applied them both times with equal — without
a sudden change in population, with equal amount of justice,
you apply both the same way, had to be the same. Couldn't be
different.
Q Mr. Taylor, will you answer the question, please?
These zones could have been redrawn so as to include some white
and black children in several of these contiguous schools,
couldn't they — the Calvin Donaldson, the Trotter, the St.
Elmo, and the Sanderson, they could have been drawn so as to
include some of them, couldn't they?
A If you want to go by sostt of the principles of
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Taylor - Recross 41o
zoning, it could be worked out some way, than.
0 Well —
A (Interposing) Where the people go to the nearest
school, it’s adjacent to them.
Q Well, you wouldn't have some violate them any more
than sending white children from way over here in this Trotter
zone to the St. Elmo School after you changed Trotter to a
black school, would you?
A Not over that far. That area there was built up,
you are pointing to, that was a swamp area.
Q White children from somewhere in the Trotter zone
went to St. Elmo after it was converted, didn't they?
A That's right.
0 And white children from somewhere in the Sanderson
zone went there, too, after it was converted, didn't they?
A But under the regulations we was operating on,
that was the most convenient school. Go by the same regula
tion, most convenient school, then they go here.
Q What you mean by that is that then you were operatin9
under segregation and with that limitation that was the most
convenient school?
A That's true, before.
Q Now, then, if after the Supreme Court said that
segregation had to be eliminated and you were operating under
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Taylor - Recross 4 1 7I integration, then it would — you could have worked out a
convenient method to change the racial assignments of those
schools, couldn't you, if you decided to do so?
A It is a possibility what I was saying before, one
considered race, turned out to be the same.
Q But, you did consider race when you locked these
white children in here and these black children under the
dual zone system?
A This one here, those three zones the same as over
here and was three before when it was all the black area.
q What I am saying is you did consider race when
you were operating dual zones, didn’t you?
A Yes, yes.
Q But, you declined to consider race when you were
changing from dual to single zones?
A Yes.
Q I see. All right.
Now, then, won't be too much longer on this one.
The same thing appears — well, before I get into that, if
we had an overlay to put this on that, what you are telling
the Court is that — that everything that is yellow, every
zone here that is yellow is exactly like the zones which you
adopted under your single-zone system?
A That's right, substantially alike, almost identical.
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g So that the only zones which were changed at all
was a small band of blue. If you compare them — sorry we
don’t have an overlay here — small band of blue that would
come right up the center here and then would go right around
Taylor - Recross
in here.
And then, this St. Elmo — in other words, you
have a little small area of blue in here, a little small area
of blue in here, and a little small area of blue there that
has not been changed and then this little bit of blue up here.
That would be all, wouldn’t it?
A Yes.
Q Yes. And, as a matter of fact, the only change
in this three up here is that you carved out this little area
of black children in the Spears School and adopted it as one
of your unitary zones, that’s true, isn’t it?
A Yes, Spears was a unitary zone.
q Well, under the old — under the black zone system,
although the blacks lived up in there where that little area
was, you had the whole zone for blacks, didn't you?
A The whole area had to be covered by black zone
whether black people lived there or not.
' "oft
q In other words, the situation with regard to the
black zone 12 is the approximate reverse of white zone 18,
isn't it? It's a zone where you had a small concentration of
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black children with two large white zones as Id was a zone whor«
you had a small concentration of whites with three large black
zones, that’s true, isn't it?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
Q And, you did exactly the same thing. All you did
was carve out the little black school zone just like you carved
out the white school zone in 18?
Taylor - Recross 419
A Yes.
0 That 'a correct?
A Yes, pupils that lived near the school go to the
l 2 school.
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Q Only reason you have got this blue in here is
because of the situation that we just described on the smaller
maps where you racially carved out the Sanderson zone there;
so, actually, you substantially adopted every place that you
didn’t adopt the same zones, you carved out new zones on a
racial pattern, didn't you? Didn't you, Mr. Taylor?
A We — I would say that is substantially correct.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, all right. That's all.
MR. WITT: Let him finish his question.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
24
2 " )
Q Now, then, you say you measured the distance from
Piney Woods to Cedar liill —
MR. WILLIAMS: And could we have these naps taken
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Taylor - Recross 420
down now, if Your Honor please? As far as I'm concerned, I an
through with them, and I'd like to use the other one again.
THE COURT: Tell the officer what you wish to have
placed up.
MR. WILLIAMS: You are taking down one of those
I need, the one on the back — one on the very back.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q All right, 3ir. Nov, you say you measured the
distance from Piney Woods to Cedar Hill?
A I said it was measured by automobile. I didn't
say I measured it.
Q Well, then, you don't know that to be true, then,
do you?
A I didn't measure it myself.
Q Well —
A (Interposing) Decause I didn't count the students
myself.
Q You are not saying that the distance from 'A' to
5, the figure "A" to the figure "Sn on Exhibit 13 or from
anywhere in zone A to zone A5 is prohibitive in light of
distances in zone 1 2 , are you?
Isn't zone 12 just as wide as zone A and 5 put
together?
A Not exactly the same, but zone 12 — zone 5 down
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Taylor - Poe cross
here —
421
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Q (Interposing) Isn't 5 Cedar Hill?
A Cedar Hill is 5 and A is Piney Woods.
Q Piney Woods, yes, sir, and —
A (interposing) You have a road there that's
dangerous for children to wait.
Q Are there any roads at all in zone 12 that axe
dangerous?
A Whole lot of roads there, but this was just one
thing everybody has to go this one road.
q You have got Wilcox Boulevard, isn’t that a high
speed avenue there in zone 12?
What is this that goes through the tunnel north
and south that runs through zone 12? What is that street?
A
0
A
Q
A
That’s Tunnel Boulevard, I guess.
Tunnel Boulevard. Isn't that a 4-lane highway?
No, no.
well, isn't it a high-speed avenue?
Some go faster than they should, but it's a normal
street.
q Have you got anything down there in zone 5 that is
as hazardous as that?
A All I am saying. Hooker Road is —
q (Interp&sing) Sir?
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Taylor - Recross 422
A Hooker Road is only one access aexesu there, and
liooker Road is a narrow street and go across the narrow bridge
without sidewalks and so forth, and —
0 (Interposing) Is that the only narrow bridge
without sidewalks in the whole city?
A Only one between those zones, only one way to go
there.
Q But, Mr. Taylor, what we'd cocoe up with Is that
what you are doing is finding excuses, aren't you, isn't that
what we are doing?
A Ask the question again.
0 Aren't there traffic hazards in other zones in
this city?
A There's traffic hazards, yes.
Q Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, down in the black
area you have got interstate highways running through there,
haven’t you?
A What was our question down here in the bottom that
we was arguing about?
y Please answer the question. In the black area in
the heart of town, you have interstate highways running through
don't you?
A That’s right, interstate highways.
Q And so, the fact that children might have to cross
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1 Taylor - Recross 423
a road with a narrow bridge between zone A and 5 does not
necessarily prohibit their consolidation of those zones, does
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it?
A Wo. I have stated that it could be consolidated;
but it has its —
Q (Interposing) Wow, you say that the reason that
you adopted all of the zones just like they were as shown on
those maps was that — no, you said the reason that you
couldn’t tell me a single black zone where children were
given the option of — where optional zones were established
was that you didn't have attendance zones where there are
large numbers of whites living in the zones. You didn't have
black attendance zones where there was a large number of whites.
Now, would you say, then, that your zones followed
racial residential patterns as they were created there?
A What I have stated was that the people closest to
the center as much as possible were zoned to that center. Some
were all of one race, some were all of the other, sons were
mixtures, 30 there's three conditions.
Q Virtually, the overwhelming majority of them were
designed and followed patterns where they were of one race or
the other exclusively, that’s true, isn't it?
A That's true, and —
Q (Interposing) And, the School Board adopted those.
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424Taylor - Recross
didn't they?
A That is true.
q All right, sir. So, to that extent, then, the
School Board did not adopt a zoning system that was actually
designed to eliminate or abolish racial segregation, did it?
A To my level of thinking, it did. It made one
single zone, and the people in that zone went to that school.
q To your level, it did, because pupils were admitted
to school if they lived in the zone?
A That'a right.
Q But, if you look at abolishing segregation in the
sense of actually changing the condition of segregation in the
schools, then the zoning system did not accomplish that, did
it?
A It accomplished more with the blacks in the white
schools than the whites in the black schools.
q But, it did not accomplish a substantial amount
of integration in any school, did it?
A If you went on the number — some just turned
over, though. We have had those that we started out on© way.
q Some were reversed?
A Some were in the middle. It was halfway, some
point of time, it was just what you want it to be.
Q Well, now, if — if segregation was not to be
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1 Taylor - Recross 425
:s
4
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abolished in that fashion, what method do you know of that
the School Board adopted to abolish segregation other than
that?
A My thinking was when they went to single tones
they did away with discriminatory clauses like we had in the
dual zones.
11
Q
A
Q
it?
That was all that was necessary to be done?
In my thinking, yes, sir.
Well, that was all that was actually done, wasn't
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A In my humble opinion.
Q Yes. And, with regard to the junior high schools
and the feeder policy, it would have been possible, would it
not, to have, if the effort had been to eliminate segregation,
it would have been possible to do that by altering some of the
feeder patterns, wouldn't it?
A Might have been.
q In other words, you could have taken one or two
elementary schools over here in the black area and instead
of zoning them for the all-black Howard School, perhaps zone
them for the Hardy School or perhaps the Dalewood School,
couldn't you?
A Well, if you want to do away with convenience of
parents going to the school that's nearest their center. You
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Taylor - Recross 4 2 6
did away with that, you could do anything.
0 Well, didn’t you say earlier the distance was not
an important factor, not as important a factor where secondary
school children were concerned?
A My statement was that we considered a junior high
age pupil to be more mature and he could go a greater distance
to school than an elementary and senior high could go greater
than a junior high.
Q All right, air.
A Safe conditions, that was the statement.
G All right. But, your present -- your present
feeder pattern is that in -- that in the Hardy School you have
feeding into it the Astnicola School?
A The Garber School.
Q Mary Ann Garber, where is that?
A The little one.
Q Mary Ann Garber?
A East Chattanooga and Avondale.
0 East Chattanooga and Avondale.
A Four feeder schools.
Q Yes. Now, that school, you get some integration
with that, I assume?
A It’s about to go over, not be integrated. It’s
gone past the center.
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Taylor - Uecross 4 2 7
g All right. Well, now, you could have alleviated'
that by putting one of these white schools out here into that,
couldn't you? Maybe by putting Missionary Ridge into it,
couldn’t you?
A From changing?
y Yes.
A If you wanted a zone policy that you change every
year of large scale thing like that, you could switch around a
lot of things? but —
y (Interposing) Well, as a matter of fact, as a
matter of fact, all that I want to illustrate here is that by
changing the feeder patterns of the elementary schools into
your junior high schools, you could effectively integrate the
junior high schools, couldn't you? You could eliminate some
of t h e s e all-white junior high schools?
A We effectively integrated Hardy by this feeder
pattern.
Q And, in the same way that you effectively integrated
Hardy by those feeder patterns, you could have integrated Alton
Park and Orchard Knob by bringing in some of these white
school zones?
A If you brought those.
Q some of these white elementary zones? As a
matter of fact, you have a white elementary zone down there
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Q
Taylor Recross 429
Over by the ridge?
A Over by a lake over there, looks like a creek there,
maybe.
Q East Lake is close to the lower end of Missionary
Ridge, too, and you have Clifton Hills feeding into it?
Clifton Hills is just about as close to Howard, isn't it?
A Well, equal distance. Mark up there is where the
zone line goes down. It's two miles to that. I did travel
that one.
Q Isn't Clifton Hills adjacent to Alton Park Junior
high School?
A That's right, that's right.
q Well, why doesn't it feed into Alton Park? Alton
Park Junior High School is all black?
A That's right.
Q Still all black, isn't it, substantially 835
blacks and 7 whites, and here's a beautiful all-white elementary
school right there adjacent to it and instead of feeding it
into Alton Park, you are feeding it way over here a mile away
into the East Lake area, that's true, isn't it?
A It's — all of it's not a mile away. Part of it
is fairly close to East Lake.
q But, it's closer to Alton Park, though, isn't it?
A The one boundary?
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Taylor - Recross 430
Q Yes, sir.
A The boundary that's called —
Q (Interposing) Every bit o£ it — every bit of
8 here is Alton Park right here. Here's the common boundary
between Alton Park Junior High School zone and East Lake and
Clifton Hills Elementary School.
And here's East Lake Junior High School over here.
Now, every bit of Clifton Hills is a mile away or nearly a mile
away from East Lake, isn't it?
A It's a distance front East Lake, but some of it's
closer to East Lake than it is to Alton Park.
0 Why doesn't distance become a factor sometimes
when you are talking about segregation like that, when you are
segregating, why doesn't distance become a factor?
A That's a flooded area, as you note the creek. Only
one way to get across from there to the freeway in that whole
section.
Q What's the way?
A Thirty-eighth Street or Thirty-seventh — Thirty-
eighth, I believe.
Q How about Hamill Road down here?
A That*8 a lower — that's down in the other zone.
That doesn't go across from those two.
THE COURT: Hr. Williams, we have gone beyond our
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431
normal adjournment hour; and I have another matter I have to
hear this evening. Any reason why we should not recess the
trial of this case at this time?
Very well. We will recess the trial of this case
until 9:00 o'clock in the morning. Let's take about a 5-minut<i
recess and then we will take up the next case.
MR. WILLIAMS: May I request — I have some things
that I want to request if the Court will indulge me.
THE COURTr All right.
MR. WILLIAMS: I want to — I want to ask leave,
if the Court please, to check these two maps out overnight
so that I can use them.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WILLIAMS: And I should like to request that
Dr..Kester be given access to the pupil locater maps and to
the pupil transfer information which Mr. Witt says — he has
said several times over the years that he has had in court and
I never used it, and we have been trying to get the benefit
of it. And, we haven't had a chance to even look at their
pupil transfer information.
We'd like to have that made available tonight.
And also, how about their attachments to the pupil locater
maps? We understand there's some attachments to the individua!.
pupil locater maps which lists the pupils who are living out o;
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43 2
the zones. We should like to have the privilege of examining
those.
MR. WITT: Arrangements have already been made for
Mr. Dean Holden and Dr. Kester to meet at 5:00 o'clock with
the transfer material for 1967 up to date. The pupil locator
maps as of 6:00 o'clock Saturday night have not been completed.
I do not know whether they have been completed today or not,
all they needed was labels. If they are completed, they will
be made available to Dr. Kester.
TIIE COURT: All right.
MR. WILLIAMS: We'd like to look at these that are
here, too.
THE COURT: Yes, very well. Let's take a 5-minute
recess, then we will take up the next case.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor please, could I make a
request? These maps are very bulky and practically impossible
to carry them. Would it be possible for Dr. Kester to have
the special privilege of being here in the courtroom this
evening to examine these?
THE COURT: on, yes, ha can stay here as long as
he wishes to stay, examine them as long as lie wishes to. This
courtroom will be open all evening.
Now, you would have problems if you left at 5:3U
and v/anted to get back in here, because it would be locked up
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after 5:30, to get back in. If you wish to stay in here, now,
you can do so. -
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I can go and ask him to come
back right now so that he could be here.
THE COURT: Just leave the exhibits in the court
room, yes, that will be all right. All right, any other
problem? t
MR. WILLIAMS: No, sir, that's all. Thank you, sir.
(Court adjourned.)
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43 4
THIRD DAY OF TRIAL
May 11, 1971
9:00 O'clock, A. M.
THE COURT: All right, gentlemen, are we prepared
to proceed in the case of James Jonathan Mapp versus Board of
Education?
MR. WILLIAMS: Plaintiff is ready.
THE COURT: Have we completed the examination or
is there further examination of Dr. Taylor?
MR. WILLIAMS: I decided that I did not desire to
ask Mr. Taylor any further questions.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WITT: Your Honor, I'd like to raise a point
preliminarily before we go into another witness, if I may.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WITT: There's one issue that both parties
agree is properly before the Court and only one issue and that's
the question of faculty desegregation. We are now in the
process of staffing the faculty at the various schools for
next September. If there is any possibility that any substantij;
change would have to be made in the procedure by which the
Board is now guiding itself and conducting itself with regard
to faculty, it would be wise for the School Board to be apprisec
of that as soon as possible.
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Any type of substantial change in its process, if
clone in a hurry, could only be to the detriment of the school
system and the school children. So, we would like to change
the order of the proof that we had originally decided upon
pursuant to Your Honor's order of February and move to the
question of faculty desegregation.
It's our contention that — well, for example, the
litigation seems to be taking a substantial amount of time.
I had originally estimated Mr. Taylor would take approximately
two-and-a-half hours and he has now been on the stand for two
full days. And, to me, much of the cross examination yesterday
by Mr. Williams was irrelevant. For example, particularly when
he was referring to his questions implied an assumption upon
his part that the defendants in this case are under a constitu
tional obligation to racially balance or establish some ratio
in the student population substantially that of the entire
system.
And, if there's one thing that's clear in Swann,
that is not a constitutional requirement. I am assuming that
Mr. Williams knows this. The words that I refer to —
THE COURT: (Interposing) Well, perhaps we should
reserve at this time the matter of getting into the argument
of the case. We haven't completed the evidentiary hearing
and proceed with the argument at this point, I think, would not
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43 6
be helpful.
MR. WITT: Well, what is — what's the nature of the
defense? Necessarily involves an Interpretation of the nature
of the obligation that we are attempting to prove that we have
discharged. And, we are attempting to prove a negative. If
we move, there is no question about it, that this Board is under
an affirmative obligation of a particular kind with reference
to desegregation.
Now, the exact and precise nature of this affirma
tive obligation has never been defined. It has not been
defined as of this moment by the Supreme Court.
To illustrate. Your Honor, in the clarification of
the issues as reflected in your February order, each of these
issues, as I recall, revolved around and were necessarily
dependent upon and could not be understood without some under
standing of what is meant by unitary system.
And, the Supreme Court clearly made no additional -■■
gave no additional definition to this concept in its April the
20th decision of this year. So, we have to attempt to determin<)
what is this obligation that we are attempting to defend and
if we don't know what this obligation is, it's extremely
difficult if not impossible to defend this kind of am approach.
The affirmative obligation, we recognize — we
have recognized always it's illustrated in the way the Board hai
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reacted with regard to faculty desegregation, and it is not
a negative. If we can prove positive steps of an affirmative
obligation and then the question is whether or not the Board's
understanding of the nature and extent of this affirmative
obligation is sufficiently consistent with that of the Supreme
Court as enunciated in Swann.
We are prepared to go ahead on transfers, high
schools, and other matters; but we have asked the defendant
time and again by interrogatories and otherwise to be specific
with regard to what it i3 that he and his client think this
school system have done wrong. His answers to the interrogatorj
have been ambiguous.
The defense — the preparation of the defense of
this case has almost been to prepare to defend any decision
that's been made by this School Board in the last 12 years
without knowing what decision they are talking about, and this
is almost an impossible job.
THE COURT; Well, I think that if we proceed with
the hearing in accordance with the order the Court has hereto
fore put down and find out what the facts are with regard to
the school system as it now exists, that then we can proceed
to determine just exactly what the law may require and whether
the law will require any change in those facts.
MR. WITT: I'd like to ask Mr. Taylor a couple of
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questions.
ROBERT ARMSTRONG TAYLOR,
having been previously duly sworn, resumed the witness stand,
and testified further as follows:
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT:
q Mr. Taylor, yesterday Mr. Williams was asking you
about the southern zone line of Louis Sanderson School as
it is on Exhibit 33 and the number is 28. Can you describe the
basis for that southern zone line?
A I need to see something a little clearer than I
can see now.
THE COURT: Just move that map up and place it —
THE WITNESS: (Interposing) The southern zone line
of Louis Sanderson and the northern zone line of St. Elmo which
is the same line beginning at the western portion of the city
limits, it follows the incline railway down to the business
district of St. Elmo and goes across the business district of
St. Elmo and across the chert pit area to the railroad track,
on the railroad track to reach the Donaldson line.
Q All right, sir. Now, in the construction of these
zone lines, did you consider the presence of interstate high
ways?
A I did not consider the zone lines. I mean, the
Taylor - Redirect 43U
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Taylor - Redirect 4 3 9
zone lines was adopted for the single zones in *62-63 by some
other people although I don't think there were any freeways at
that particular time.
Q Do you know of any way that the School Board can
tell people where to live?
MR. WILLIAMS: Oh, I object to that, Your Uanor.
THE COURT: Yes, sustained.
MR. WITT: That's all.
THE COURT: Anything further of this witness?
MR. WITT: Your Honor, yesterday I mentioned that
Mr. Taylor has a substantial part in the testimony with regard
to faculty desegregation and I did not — I organised the proof
on the basis of the issues as set forth in Your Honor's order
and I completed his part of the testimony with regard to zones;
but I did not touch upon the faculty aspect. I would prefer
to have the permission to recall Mr. Taylor on faculty desegre
gation .
THE COURT: Yes, all right.
(Witness excused.)
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, I probably
should have made this as a preliminary announcement —
pre1trainary statement. We have been — we notice that the
Court included in the issues the question of whether or not
transfers, question we have always been concerned about, the
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use of transfers in connection with the school desegregation
plan, and we have had great difficulty apparently in getting
this into evidence. We asked the defendants to furnish us
information regarding transfers and they demurred saying that
this would involve a great amount of work and that they would
simply furnish us with the transfer records.
Dr. Kester went out yesterday evening to look at
the records. Actually, Dr. K e s t e r had came up here three days
early last week in order for that purpose but was not given
access to the records. He was advised that Mr. Witt was out of
town and had given instructions that he was not to be furnished
such access.
440
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I called Mr. Witt Saturday when I got down here
and although after a telephone exchange which lasted a full
day practically Dr. Kester was finally able to get out to the
office at 4:00 o'clock, transfer records were still not
available so that he never got to see those until yesterday
evening. He indicates that the records are so voluminous that
it would be difficult for him to make the necessary tabulations.
He has a format which would bring out the necessary
information in such fashion that the Court could understand it.
lie has prepared a format this morning. It's relatively simple.
We would like to ask that the defendants be
directed by the Court to assign personnel to tabulate this
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information so that we could present it to the Court to reflect
just for, I believe, it's four selected years, the information
as to how transfers have been administered in the Chattanooga
school system. I intended to bring that to the Court’s atten
tion first thing this morning.
MR. WITT: First, I'd like to note what is the
purpose of Dr. Hester's testimony or analysis?
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, the purpose of it, if Your
Honor please, is to examine the manner in which transfers have
been administered so as to show the Court whether or not there
has been any tendency on the part of the administration of
transfer to hinder or deter the desegregation of the system
in connection with this plan.
MR. WITT: Respond in this way: The School Board,
with regard to Mr. Williams, has had an open-door policy for
a long period of time. We have attempted to cooperative in
every way we know how even to the point of interfering with
preparation of the defense of this case.
First knowledge that I had that Dr. Hester was
in town was at 9:35 on Friday morning when I was in Atlanta,
Georgia. If Dr. Hester and Mr. Williams had advised us in
advance, just a reasonable tine in advance, and told us what
they wanted to see, we would have made every effort to see that
they get what they are entitled to.
441
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442
With rtfonno* to the transfer record#, these are
available and he locked aver then last night. I doubt that
they are that voluminous. On the other hand, 2 called Mr.
Taylor Saturday afternoon and asked him if he could go down
to the sahool board on Saturday afternoon and show Or. (tester
all of the naps that Dr. ( te s te r wanted to see.
So, Mr. Taylor and I want down on Saturday after
noon at 4:00 o'clock and net Dr. ( t e s t e r at the eohool board
and ah owed hie what he wanted to see about these nape. Mow, to
be accused indirectly of not cooperating, X object to that, and
I object to it strenuously.
And with regard to using our personnel to assist
him is the preparation of hla ease, that's his job. These
records have been available a long tins and ha has procedures
whereby he could have secured this information a long tins ago.
And, too, we are attempting to continue the school
system at the same time of defending this case, and ws resist
any effort to get our personnel to assist him in same evaluation i
of these transfer records. Ws will put tha people in charge
o f these transfer records on the stand and sake available to
them as witnesses, these records, and whatever information they
want, and Mr. Willimts can go over their testimony sad he can
pick out vast he wants and prove what he thinks is anosssary.
m s . WILLIAMSt May it plaase Tour Honor, X think
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4 4 3
counsel misconceives our purpose here. Our purpose is not to
prepare our case but to try to present to the Court the evidence
which we feel the Court is entitled to so the Court may make
an intelligent decision regarding these issues.
THE COURT: Let's see exactly what you need.
MR. WILLIAMS: We —
THE COURT: (Interposing) They say they have the
transfer records available and will make them available, I
assume, any time now. Is there something additional to that
that you would desire?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir, what we need is a listing
for each year in question of the names of the pupils who were
transferred, the present schools at which they were assigned,
the school, the requested school of assignment, the reason for
the alleged — for the transfer, and the action of the Board.
That's item one, and then second we need a summary sheet which
would show for each school in the system the number of transfer;:
by the category of reasons for transfers.
They have a transfer policy which, as Your Honor
recalled, contains about — may or may not recall — contains
several criteria for transfers listed from about A to J. And,
we need and the Court would need in order to really determine
whether or not there has been any discrimination in connection
with transfers, a listing showing the — for each school, the
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number of transfers by these criteria and the schools, the
respective schools from which those transfers were requested.
Now, that is simply a mathematical matter, if Your
Honor please. It's not a matter wherein we are to have to --
employ a doctor of philosophy to collect that mathematical
information. So, anyone there on the staff who does mathematicc
THE COURT: (Interposing) What sure we talking
about in getting this kind of record together, Mr. Witt, could
you talk to your school officials and see or do you propose
to submit this very information in connection with your proof
in chief?
1
MR. WITT: Your Honor, it was — this information
was available here yesterday. They spent from 5:00 o ’clock to
about 6:30 with it last night with Dean Holden. He is not in
the audience right now. I think there are about 250 transfers,
pieces of paper that probably have supporting documents, maybe
five or six supporting documents for each transfer that somebody
would have to look at and decide what column to put it in.
It's a statistical analysis, as I see it, basically, and to get
it shouldn't take, I'd say, it would take half a day, but I
don't know. This is Dr. Bond's department -- the information.
THE COURT: Suppose we do this, let's get the
information here sometime during the day if you can, please,
and then Court will sit down with counsel and we will see if
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3 ’ Carr - Direct 445
- I wc can't work this out among ourselves.
JACK CARR/
called as a witness at the instance of the defendant, being
first duly sworn, was examined and testified as followst
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT:
q Mr. Carr, are you employed by the — by whom are
you employed?
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A
Chattanooga Public School.
What is the nature of your responsibility?
Present time, I am Director of Vocational Technical
Education.
Q
A
When did you assume this responsibility?
It would be — official assignment was August of
this current school year.
Q All right. When were you first employed by the
City school system?
A In August of 1950.
q What w a s your first assignment?
A I was employed as a teacher of health, education,
and coach at Kirkman High School.
q How long did you function in that capacity?
A Six years.
♦ *
q That would be —
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A (Interposing) 1950 through the end of 1956 school
year.
Q What was your next assignment?
A Towards the end of that school year, I believe it
was in March, I was transferred to serve as assistant principal
at Normal Park Elementary School. Completed the sshool year
in a period of about three or four months.
Q Then your next assignment?
A Next assignment was a dual assignment. I served as
coordinator of Special Education for the city school system
at large and was teacher of remedial reading at the University
of Chattanooga Junior League Reading Center.
Q What year was this?
A I believe that wa3 *57-58, '58-59.
Q Then, what was your next assignment?
A The next assignment was the assistant principalship
at Kirkman Technical High School.
Q How long did you serve in that capacity?
A Well, I may be a year or two off here, I have
changed so many times. I was in that position three years, so
I guess I'd have to back up on the assignment, the Junior
League, that was '56-57, '57-58.
I assumed the principalship in 1961 at Klrkaum
High School.
Carr - Direct 446
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Carr - Direct 447
Q How long were you principal at Kirkmen High School?
A Five years.
0 Aa principal, m m you (miliar with the curriculum
at Kirkman High School?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was your next assignment?
A I was transferred to the Central Offioe aa
Director of Secondary Education.
Q What year was this?
A This was 1966.
0 Who was the Superintendent at that time?
A Dr. Carmichael.
Q would you describe your responsibility as a Directoi
of Secondary Education as you conceded?
A l was responsible for working primarily with the
principals of all the junior and senior high schools in tbs
area of curricula.
Q Can you ba somewhat more specific in the way in
which you worked with the principals?
a In the revision of existing curricula, the addition^
courses that a principal night desire, these is s procedure you
must follow to add imw courses or to delete courses from your
school offering.
To assist in securing equipmsnt, materials.
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instructional materials, in-service education of teachers, I
think briefly this was part of the responsibilities.
0 Then, in the discharge of this responsibility, did
you work with each one of the principals of the different high
schools?
A Five high schools and twelve junior high schools.
Q Did you work with other people in the schools other
than principals?
A Yes, I worked with curriculum groups composed of
faculty members of each school.
Q What do you mean, curriculum groups?
A in each school, for example, in the area of language
arts we try to develop a continuous program from actually grade
1 through 12 and teachers are in on the planning and develop*
of the curriculum for each subject area. Me meet frequently to
revise or add to or delete.
Q How are these — membership of these curriculum
groups determined?
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, I object
to this. This doesn't seem to be directed toward any Issue
in the case.
THE COURT: Well, I think ho should be allowed to
proceed to develop his proof.
THE WITNESS: At moat of the schools, you haws a
Carr - Direct 448
:
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Carr - Dinct 449
department head and tha other teachers who lee tract la each
instructional area are part of that curriculum group. In other
words, all of the English teachers of a given school would
compose your language arts curriculum group.
Q Are they in the process of re-evaluating their
performance from time to time? (
A That is correct, based upon the needs of the
students that are in their program at a given tine.
Q All right. Direct your attention, new, to the
curriculum at Kirkman. Uhat does — whet does Kirfeman purport
to do?
A The basic — basic philosophy of Kirknae high
School is to train young people to go to work in industry or
business. It has the nans vocational technical attached to it
so every student enrolled in this school is enrolled in eons
type of s vocational or technical training program, half the
day is spent in shop training program, the other half ie epeet
in the academic subject areas.
q All right. How many periods would be involved in
the academic subjects?
A I believe the school operates on a ?-period-day,
so four periods are usually devoted to either academic subjects
and — or s study of the other three periods vould be — would
be in the vocational area.
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0 Is there any other high school in the Chattanooga
system with a similar program?
A HO have too other high schools, honor* an* River
side, who both offer similar programs. They are not as
extensive as the program at Kirksuui, because Kirkaaa was
established for this purpose.
I guess you would describs in educational circles,
Howard and Riverside, as comprehensive high schools. The
youngsters can either go the vocational route or they may
follow the college preparatory program.
Q Mould you give us your definition of vocational as
it applias to Kirkaaa?
A To am, vocational training would be a program M i c h
a youngster is learning a manipulative skill as wall as a
certain amount of related theories that go with it* whereas a
technical program to am is one which involves a great deel of
theory es opposed to the hand manipulation.
I would say that electronics, in ny opinion, is
considered to be s technical program, d e rtsc auto mechanics
might be considered ee a vocation.
0 what courses are taught at Kirkman?
TUB COURT< Mow, Mr. Hitt, so that Z may follow
you bettor, are we going into the question of faculty assign
ment or ere you going into the question of freedom of M o i m
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Carr - Direct 451
in schools, or what is the purpose of this particular line of
inquiry?
MR. WITTi Ms are proposing to show the educational
reasons for no sones in the high schools.
THE COURT: Then, you are going into the freedom of
choice of high schools?
MR. WITT: Yes.
THE COURT: Very well.
bY MR. WITT:
q Mr. Carr, does the Kirkman Technical School have
material for use in guidance?
A Yes, each of our high schools have sees type of
guidance material that la used for pre-registration for
students who are new to that given school.
Q Do you have a copy of that material?
A Yes, sir, I do.
q Mr. Carr, are those the same? This is bound
dif ferently?
A Yes, they are the same.
Q would you make these Exhibit 1 to your testimony?
THE COURT: That will be Exhibit 36, I believe.
would it not?
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
36 for identification. Witness Mr.
Carr, and received in evidence.)
H l t H A H O S M I T H . O F F I C I A L . C O U R 1 R U ' O H I I M
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Carr - Direct 45 2
BY MR. WITT:
Q Mr. Carr, do you have another copy of this?
A Yes, sir.
Q Here it is, beg your pardon.
You have an additional copy?
Q
A I just have this one copy. This exhibit is —
(Interposing) Who prepared this guidance bulletin
or how was it prepared?
A This particular item was prepared by — I don't
know the person that was in charge of the whole production, but
each shop teacher was asked to submit a description of his
particular course of study and as found in here, then it was
compiled by one individual, I assume, and then was printed in
the printing department at the school.
Q What was its purpose?
A The purpose is to disseminate information primarily
to the junior high school students who may be interested in
attending a vocational training program.
Q Who is responsible for the guidance aspect of the
use of this material?
A Each of our senior high schools have guidance
teachers assigned on the staff, and they are responsible for
orientation to all the students.
Q In determining — how does the Kirkman Technical
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Carr - Direct 4 5 3
High School go about deciding what courses and what shops will
be available at Kirkman?
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, I just
wonder if this cannot be shortened? I think it's fairly
obvious to everyone that Kirkman is a special type of high
school and that ordinarily such — this kind of a high school
is not zoned.
And, I don't think the Court's ordered any
reference to this particular high school. And, I am wondering
if the proof that’s being developed isn't a waste of time?
THE COURT: Can we agree that zoning would not be
applicable to the school with the curriculum and the type of
school of Kirkman?
MR. WILLIAMS: I have never seen one zoned in all
my experience.
THE COURT: Very well. With that stipulation, Mr.
Witt, would you wish to pursue this matter further or may we
move to some other area?
MR. WITT: Well, the purpose of the testimony was
to indicate that each high school is different, that its
curriculum is put together carefully, that to meet the needs
of the constituencies of the various schools and Kirkman is an
excellent example of this because it is the high school that
is quite different.
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I wish I'd known that Mr. Williams was not contsndii^g
that Kirksuun was involved in this decision. All right.
Then, as I understand it, Mr. Williams is agreeing
that he has no objection to the fact that Kirkman is not soned?
MR. WILLIAMS: I am stipulating that a high school
that is devoted that is programmed as a technical and
vocational high school is generally system-wide and should be
system-wide according to my understanding.
THE COURT: I understand there's no issue, then,
being raised in this case with regard to the non-soning of
Kirkman Technical High School.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thav is correct. Your Honor.
THE COURT: Very well.
BY MR. WITT:
All right, Mr. Carr, are you familiar with the
Carr - Direct 454
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curriculum at Howard School?
A Yes, sir.
q would you describe this curriculum?
A I previously mentioned that in my opinion I would
consider Howard High School to be classified as a comprehensive
high school; that is, youngsters may follow the general
academic preparatory college program or may enter vocational
training programs, also.
Each of the five high schools have a certain
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1 1 Carr - Direct
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autonomy in that the principal has, I guess, the professional
right and obligation when there is a need for certain courses,
based upon the desires of the young people, to request to the
local board of education and they are to the state board, to
add a program or course of study to their existing school. This
is followed in our school system as in all, required by law in
s the State of Tennessee.
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Q In the exercise of this autonomy, has Howard High
School made any recn— tiidstlons or are they in the process of
making any recommendations as to changes in their curriculum?
A in the material furnished by the guidance department
1 ; upon request for tills materiel, there was included a list of
n probable course offerings within the language arts departawnt
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for 1971-72. This is a — I won't aay a radical departure, but
I think it is a new approach, certainly, to looking at the
language arts program of Howard High School.
m
Q All right. Did you participate directly in the
initiation of this program?
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A No, sir, I was not aware of this until two weeks
ago.
Q What?
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A bet me say, Mr. Witt, that this would not be a
part of my responsibilities at this time. I am strictly in
vocation.
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0 Do you know the individuals at Howard who are
familiar with this program?
Carr - Direct 456
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q Would you give their names, please?
A Mr. Cliff Hendrix is the principal of Howard High
School, and Mr. Franklin McCallie has the responsibility for
curriculum development, a new position added to the school this
year.
Q Has this — what is the status of this proposal
currently?
A It's my understanding it's still tentative and
being revised even at the present time, this is to ray knowledge
q Now, you described Howard, I believe, earlier as
a comprehensive high school?
A Yes, sir.
U Would you please explain what you mean by that
term?
A By this I mean that a student may follow what 1
would call a straight academic college preparatory curriculum
with emphasis on math, science, social studies; or if he is
interested in pursuing a specific vocation, which might be
offered in that curriculum, which is offered, he has the choice
of following the curriculum as offered.
It is a much broader curriculum than normally
HtCHAHC SMITH. OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
found in just a college preparatory high school or a vocational
high school.
g Does the average comprehensive high school or a
high school that meets that classification, does it have —
include vocational programs?
A That is correct.
Q Are there a limited number of vocational programs
that it should include or is there a minimum or maximum?
A I don't know if there's a minimum and e maximum.
I think you get into economics that sometimes it is not feasible
for a school system to duplicate every vocation -- vocational
course in each of the high schools.
For example, ve have only one machine shop in our
system. It would cost — trail, the coat would be prohibitive
to have this available in each of the high schools,
g Is this kind of shop available at Howard?
A Ho, sir, not machine shop training per se.
Q I hand you a document entitled "Vocational Educa
tion Program."
THE COURT: Thirty-seven.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit Mo.
J7 for identification. Witness
Mr. Carr, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
g What vocational educational programs does this
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Carr - Direct
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Carr - Direct 458
indicate that Howard High has?
A This indicates all of the programs in which the
Chattanooga public schools receive reinburseamnt from the
State Board of Vocational Education for operating purposes.
Do you want me to read these?
A Well, let's indicate the courses that are taught
at Howard.
A Home economics, distributive education, office
occupations, auto mechanics, carpentry, commercial foods,
cosmetology, drafting, masonry, shoe repair, and tailoring.
Q Now, if a student was enrolled in a hone economics
program at Howard High, how many hours would a student spend?
A This is —
Q (Interposing) In the pursuit of that particular
portion of its education?
A This is one hour per day.
Q All right. Let's move down to distributive
education. How many class periods would be involved in
distributive education if that were your major emphasis?
A Distributive education generally would be in
class one hour but the remainder of the day would be out on
a job. This is the purpose of distributive education, it's
a co-op training progrsm.
q What does the term "distributive education" mean?
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A Well, in ita brief essence, it naans the sale and
exchange of goods for money or services.
g What kind of jobs would students at Howard have
if they were co-oping under the distributive education program' 1
A They may be employed in all types of stores in
which selling takes place, grocery stores, ten-cent stores,
furniture stores.
q All right. Is the curriculum in distributive
education at Howard comparable with that at Kirkman?
A Yes. There is a state guide that is given to each
teacher that is a suggested teaching guide furnished by the
State Department. This does not mean necessarily that you
follow it per se, but within the framework it is generally the
same, yes.
g would this — that same conclusion hold true for
Chattanooga High?
A That is correct. That would hold true for all
four of the schools that offer distributive education.
q i notice that Riverside High doss not have a
course in distributive education, is that correct?
A That is correct.
q Do you know the reason for this?
A No, sir, I do not.
q All right. Now, the next description is office
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Carr - Direct
occupations. Could you be a little bit more specific about
what that covers?
A The intent of the vocational office occupations
is to provide an opportunity for young people to seoeive train
ing in a simulated office situation. It is hoped that within
the structure of each school simulated office programs will be
developed.
The young people — there are two programs, one is
secretarial training and the other is clerical training. The
young people are enrolled in at least a minimum of three
courses in the eleventh and twelfth grades which usually is
composed of basic courses in any business training program —
typing, shorthand, office practice, bookkeeping, and so forth.
Q Does the State Department have a description for
this particular course of study?
A There is, I believe, a course outlined which has
been compiled by the office of occupation teachers throughout
the state.
q Does this mean that the four high schools have
substantially the same curriculum on this point?
A There are similarities. I will not say that they
are substantially the same.
Q Cam you think of an example of a distinguishing
difference in the substance, of substantial —
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A (Interposing) Well, the difference would be whothei
tltc youngster is following the clerical program or d w U e r he in
following a stenographic program. Stenographic would require
two years of shorthand. The clerical student can conceivably
go through that without any shorthand training.
0 Is it possible to take these courses and to
qualify for entrance to college at the sane tine?
A Yes, sir.
q Does Chattanooga High School have a aouree entitled
‘Office Occupations*?
A Chattanooga High School offers instruction in
various office occupation classes, but it is not reimbursed
vocationally. These are locally supported progress.
q what is the explanation for it not being reimbursed^
A The only explanation I can give is that the school
h a s never requested that it be placed on the vocational progra
q Then, can substantially tho sane courses be learnec
at Chattanooga Uigh with regard to offioe occupations as at
the other four high schools?
A In ny opinion, the basic courses — sane of the
basic courses nay be pursued; but I think the difference would
be the simulated office experience or — and I failad to
d-mention the co-op experience.
Many of the youngsters st — that are in the other
Cerr - Direct **1
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Carr - Direct 462
four schools in the vocational, they do go out into live jobs
out in the community on half-time basis. I do not think that
this is true at Chattanooga High School.
q You say they co-op on a half-time basis? Does this
mean that their education is prolonged?
A No, sir, it means that in their senior year, those
young people who have reached a certain level of competency ere
then placed on jobs in various business concerns in town who
employs part-time workers. They receive actual, on-the-job
training experience. They receive high school credit for this
experience.
q Now, I notice that — does Howard have a course in
carpentry?
A Yes, sir.
U What is the explanation for Kirkman High not having
a course in carpentry?
A Kirkman High offers a program that is entitled
Woodworking," which involves more power machinery.
q Then, are you saying the carpentry and woodworking
are substantially the same?
A I am saying they can be substantially the same.
I think the woodworking is into a little more depth of cabinet
making or furniture making, which requires larger pieces of
equipment.
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Carr - Direct 463
Q If a student were taking carpentry at Howard, how
many classroom periods would be required to pursue that course?
A Three hours per day.
q What would the other four hours a day be involved
in?
A The other hours of the day would be Involved in the
basic required courses for graduation, such as English, math,
social studies, whatever the student elects to take.
q Would the math courses taken by a student %ho was
majoring in carpentry relate to his work as a carpenter at
Howard?
A I don’t know that I could answer that. I would
hope that it would; however, I would feel also that generally
the carpentry teacher would instruct the student in the math
that he needs for his specific purpose at that time.
The mathematics program at Howard is not a
vocational related course. My understanding, it follows the
regular math as required by the State or prescribed by the
State for Tennessee.
q Could you expand on what you mean by not a
vocationally related course?
A Yes, sir. Vocational programs, the mathematics
that might apply to a given shop is taught by a separate
teacher which would be called a related mathematics course.
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Carr - Direct 4*4
The math that he learns upstairs would relate to what he is
studying, hopefully, in his vocation.
Generally, though, speaking, now, that — that
most of our students are taught their mathematics toy the shop
instructor while he has them in a live job.
0 Does that comment relate to all vocational programs
with regard to carpentry or just the one at Uoward?
A That would be all, yes.
Q Now, in the auto mechanics course at Howard, how
many hours a day does this require?
A At the present time, it requires three hours a
day.
Q When does a student make the decision, ordinarily,
to choose this particular course of study?
A Believe at the present time it is during the
sophomore year.
Q Does this, then, the instruction in carpentry
would be limited to the eleventh and twelfth grades, is that
correct?
A Ten, eleven, twelve, if they select it in the tenth
grade.
Q Then, they implement it in the tenth grade?
A Right.
0 The second semester?
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A First M M i t t r at the tine the student enrolls.
Q All right. The instructional program in carpentry
at Howard, are houses actually built?
A Several years ago there was a program developed
whereby the vocational students at Howard and Riverside would
alternate in years in constructing the houses, and this has beer
in effect, I believe, to date. We have constructed — the
school system has constructed five houses. One is under con
struction by Riverside at the present tine.
This soswtimes is a joint effort, for example,
Howard does not offer electricity or house wiring# so the
youngsters at Kirkman High School wire the houses for them.
So, it's kind of a joint project between programs.
q All right. What's the nomenclature of commercial
foods? What does that encompass?
A well, that encompasses, of course, learning to —
the processes of cooking and bulk foods and baking.
q All right. How many hours a day are involved in
that particular part of the curriculum?
A This is currently a 3-hour program.
q Is that true at Riverside, too?
A That is correct.
U Now, how many hours are required in the course in
cosmetology?
Carr - Direct
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A This is a 3-hour course. You have a State require
ment from the State Board of Cosmetology that a youngster or
anyone applying for a license in cosmetology must complete
1,500 hours. So, this is -- must remain a 3-hour course in
order to get the required number of hours in for certification
from the State.
q Can you explain why commercial art is taught only
at Kirkman?
A The only explanation that I can give, at the time
the school established — at that time there was a need for
commercial art which was included in the curriculum and the neef
has existed since that time. So, it's still a part of the
curriculum.
q is this the kind of information that is given
students in the ninth grade when they are being counseled with
reference to the high school that they will select?
a I am not sure.
q I say a student is interested in commercial art
when he is in the ninth grade. When he is thinking about which
school to go to, is this the kind of information that a guidance
counselor is to be expected to give to a student seeking to make
a decision as to what high school?
A Yes, this is true. This is the purpose of all the
guidance material provided to young people.
Carr - Direct 46b
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Carr - Direct 467
0 Do you know whether or not the students are «jlvuit
copies of this material?
A I do not think they receive — I think these are
available in the junior high school guidance counselor's office
but not to — each student does not receive a copy.
Q
course?
Now, did the course in drafting, is it a 3-hour
A Yes, sir.
o Three-period course?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is it substantially the 8M e at Howard, Jtirkman,
and Riverside?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know whether there is a comparable course at
Chattanooga High, the drafting?
A 1 do not — Chattanooga High School may offer one
semester. I guess what was called mechanical drawing, I think
there's a difference in the two programs. It's a one-hour
course.
Q Then, in the field — in the area of maeonry. what'ii
the length
Howard?
of time required for this course at Kirk — at
A This is a 3-hour program.
Q Same true at Riverside?
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A
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A
Q
That's correct.
Do you know why masonry is not taught at Kirkman?
No, sir, I do not.
Would you distinguish, if you can, the course in
electronics from the course in electricity, since electronics
is taught at Kirkman and not at — and at Riverside — electronics
is taught at Kirkman and only at Kirkman while electricity is
taught at Kirkman and Riverside?
A Electricity, of course, provides the basic funda
mentals of — well, electricity. It gets into house wiring,
fundamentals of house wiring, whereas electronics goes much
deeper into radio, television repair, electronic circuits and
would require a higher degree of mathematics and science back
ground.
q Is the course in electricity a 3-hour course?
A That's correct.
q How about the course in electronics, is it a 3-hour
course?
A Yes, sir.
q Is it possible to take the course in electronics
and also enter college?
A Yes, that's correct. It's possible to take any of
these vocational courses and still enter college?
q With a normal load during the time you ere in
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1 Carr - Direct 469
high school — with a normal academic load while you are in
high school?
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A Yes. Let me state — make this statement, though,
from the standpoint of the intent and purpose of vocational
training. It is not to prepare youngsters to go to college.
It's to prepare to go to work, although when they do complete
their high school training — a little bias, I suppose — I
think they do have the advantage that they can go either direc
tion .
li Q Well, would this statement be applicable — rephrase
li* the question — would Kirkman, then, provide a child with this
kind of an opportunity that you have just described?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would Howard High prepare one — give one this
kind of an opportunity?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would Riverside?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would Chattanooga High School?
A Well, I think that Chattanooga High School, at leas:
in my opinion, I think you would be limited. He would not have
a salable skill based on a particular vocational endeavor.
Q What about Brainerd High?
A I'd have to say the same thing.
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Carr - Direct 470
0 Now, the course in shoe repair at Howard, is that
a 3-hour course?
A That is correct
Q Is shoe repair taught anywhere else?
A No, sir
Q Do you have an explanation for that?
A The only explanation I have on any of these courses
as to why one is offered one place and not at the other, at the
tine — let me say this* That in vocational education, one of
the fundamental principles in establishing a program is that
the local school system should have an advisory committee
composed of educators and people who are close to business
and industry to advise the school system that there is a need
for a given program at a given time.
were established on that basis, that an advisory committee
recommended that these courses be offered at that particular
time. To my knowledge, there have been no requests to drop any
courses, so I assume that — well, not only assume, Z know from
the reports from employment security and labor statistics that
we still need these various training areas plus many more.
q Do your students who are taking shoe repair have
a co-op program available to them?
A One, the features, again, of all of the vocations;
Now, I can only assume that all of these programs
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Carr - Direct 471
programs is that the co-op aspect is in existence. Me have a
vocational coordinator which is a full-time position at Howard,
Kirkman, and Riverside, coordinates the vocational program and
the co-op phase of the program.
Q Are you saying that the student that takes any of
these programs that are listed on this Exhibit 37 for Howard,
Kirkman, and Riverside, have co-op opportunities?
A Yes, and also including Chattanooga High School and
Brainerd in the areas offered other than home economics. They
all have the opportunity to co-op.
Q Is this opportunity generally available in the
sophomore year?
A No, sir.
0 Junior year?
A In some rare instances it might be the junior year,
but it's usually restricted to the senior year. We feel it
takes a certain period of time to develop a skill before we
would want to put that person out on co-op.
Q Does this co-op program take place during school
hours?
A Yes.
Q Are they compensated for their services in the
co-op program?
A I think they are compensated two wayst One, they
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D l S J R I C T C O U R T
Carr - Direct 472
receive pay for the work they do; the other, they receive high
school credit towards graduation.
Q Then, shoe repair is only available at Howard, what
would be your explanation for this if you have one?
A Again, the only explanation I have, at the time
the program was established, 1 would assume that an advisory
committee recommended this program for the schocl.
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to the assumptions.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Have you, as part of your responsibilities, do you
participate in any of these advisory committee meetings that
you referred to?
A That is true. However, I must say that this year
we have only had two meetings of the overall advisory cosmittee,
Q If you do not participate in these meetings, who
does participate in these kind of meetings for the school
system?
A Well, let me back up just a moment, make one
clarification. Let’s take, for example, drafting at — well,
any one of the schools.
There are two types of advisory cosmitteei One is
an overall for the whole school system, and ther their class —
Q (Interposing) How many people on that committee.
R I C H A R D S M I T H O I H C I A l C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
1
«»
10
11
12
i:t
U
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21
22
21
2.7
approximately?
A There are eleven.
Q All right, proceed.
A Then within each craft it is hoped that each school
would have an advisory committee. Now, not everyone follows
this, but this is the intent of the Vocational Act.
Q Then, how does requests for new courses originate?
A Well, they can come from several sources. The
general request conies from the school principal. Programs are
not arbitrarily decided by Central Office or other people and
1 'iposed down; but requests generally came from the school
administrator. This is his responsibility.
Q All right. Is the course in tailoring a 3-hour
course?
Carr - Direct 473
A That is true.
0 What about machine shop?
A Same. All of these programs — let me make this
clarification: All of these programs at the present time
with the exception of health occupations and related subjects
listed under Kirknan are 3-hour courses with one other
exception, at Riverside they have a pre-vocational program
offered in the tenth grade in which youngsters rotate between
three different areas before making their decision in their
junior year.
%
R I C H A R D S M I T H . O t - F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
i;
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Carr - Direct 474
All other programs are offered on a 3-hour basis.
u Then, this program at Riverside, how did it
originate. the pre-vocational program?
A To my knowledge, it originated at the request of
the school personnel some three or four years ago.
Q Do you recall the reasons for this request?
A No, sir, I do not.
Q
program?
Does Howard have a similar program, pre-vocational
A Not at the present time.
Q
program?
Do any of the other high schools have a similar
A No, sir.
Q Is there an explanation for health occupations
being taught at Kirkman and not at Howard?
A This program was just started this current school
year. The request cane from the school principal that there
was a need in this community for a pre-health occupations
program for students. We followed up on his request and the
program was funded by the State.
Q Now, has Riverside High prepared a curriculum
guide for use in the school system?
A That is correct.
Q Do you have a copy of this?
' l l M W I l S . ■ ■ u *. C i u i n V* I ' O K T I (t
0 N *. \j ' I 1 * f ► > * . O U f* ’
a
475
i
A Yes, sir.
|l
Q Will you sake that —
‘I
THE COURT: (Interposing) Exhibit 38.i!
|i
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
38 for identification. Witness
Mr. Carr, and received in evidence.)
il
Carr - Direct
BY MR. WITT:
i| ”
:;Q Was this material prepared for use in the ninth
|!
igrade, in the counseling?
ji
A Yes # this list guidance directors in Riverside High
|i
I School and they prepared this material as part of theirl!II
guidance program.
II
jjQ Do you know what use is made of this material?
i| a All of this material is used to orient new students
i|
; to a school.
q And, this is, believe you stated, that this is a
general — this is the curriculum of a general, comprehensive
high school, is that correct?
A This is the curriculum of this particular high
school that I consider to be a comprehensive school.
Q All right. I notice it has elective courses in
typewriting and shorthand. Would these all be a part of the
office occupations category?
i a No, sir. This is what, in our terminology, we would
h k h a h o b M . r u i . o u m R i p o m t
uNiTto 5f*Tf ^ oisretcT 4ouPr
10
11
r;
is
Jcall general education courses. Now, your vocational courses
|may include those, but your vocational program is a block of
time, three hours continuous; whereas your general education,
how they have it listed here, bookkeeping, shorthand, typing —
may be typing in the morning the first period, shorthand in the
afternoon the fifth period) but your vocational office program, |I
in order to maintain continuity of the total office setting is i
i
a 3-hour, continuous period of time. j
Q Did the same teachers teach in both categories?
A At this particular school, because of the enrollment^
j
teacher in the morning has the 3-hour office occupations program
in the afternoon to cosiplete her schedule. She teaches some
other subjects that are not vocationally reimbursed.
<J And what doe8 the general metals course that's
listed in industrial education, what does it include?
A Well, rather than being specific machine shop
training, it would — includes a little machine work, machine
metal, no spocific machine training, but just as the word
applies, just general, working with metals.
Q Is there a comparable course at Kirkman?
ICarr - Direct 47b
A Not per se. I would say that the program at
Kirkman is more specific than that; you have a specific course
in sheet metal. It's more depth and you have a machine shop
training program which deals specifically with machine shop •
• j u h » m o w i
^ : * • I H r 1 ♦ • i o u m
477Carr - Direct
instruction.
|
Q Would the equipment necessary to teach the general
imetals course at Riverside be also available at Kirkman?jj
|jA Yes, maybe not in the same shop but, you know,
some may be found in the sheet metal shop and some M y be
;i
found in the machine shop.
tj
fi
Q Do you have an explanation for why this particular
5course is not taught at Howard?
[l
A No, sir, I do not.:i
jQ Is it correct that this is the only school in which
1 that particular course is taught and offered?
A That is correct.i
'Q To graduate from Riverside to the -- is it required
that you take four years of English?
jA That is correct.
ii
q is this a requirement at all of the high schools?
A This is a requirement of the rules and regulations
of minimum standards of the State Board of Education.
q All right. What other requirement for graduationjj can be identified as being the same at all five schools?
A There are basic courses required by the State of
Tennessee for any graduate from any high school in the State.
These are quoting from the rules and regulations of the State
of Tennessee, four units, English language arts, one unit in
I
R K H A R I J i »M . ! . O* * L C O t i H I HI " O H 1 I W
J N l ^ ? D S I L T ' S L» b l * I C i . 3 U N ’
'l
:arr - Direct 478
- mathematics, one unit in American history, one unit in health
1 iiand physical education, one unit in science, and then the
1 Ijother courses totaling 16 may be elective courses; but thoseI are the required courses.Q These are the required courses for all high schools
in Tennessee?
\
i
A All high schools, that's correct.
i
IQ Call your attention to the eleventh grade, section 1
i jof the Riverside High guidance guide for curriculum, is psychology
available at Kirkman?
A Psychology is not available at Kirkman this school
year.
Q
A
Q
A
Is psychology available at Howard?
That is correct.
Is it available at the other high schools?
Available at all schools with the exception of
Kirkman.
MR. WILLIAMS* Please the Court, at this time, I
want to object to the procedure, because I believe that counsel
could furnish this information regarding the curriculum —
curricula of these high schools in printed form and the Court
can make comparisons without spending hours and hours just
going through course by course in this fashion. I think it
seems to me it's a waste of the Court's tune.
»
H r I ■ o - r O U H T
* r* L* ftA't j l / n ' K l i T it';PT
I
47 9Carr - Direct
ii
THE COURT: What is the purpose of this line of
inquiry?
MR. WITT: Purpose is to show that the curriculumti
ji' at all five of the high schools is different, that the purpose —
1 j|the basis for the freedom of choice is that the curricula are
•{different and that every effort is made to provide the kind of
educational opportunity for high school students that they
]' fit their capabilities, their desires, and their needs.
! iTHE COURT: Well, in that connection, do you propose .!
•i-■ |to go through each school and take up each course?
: | MR. WITT: Only to accentuate the differences.
j. to — only to contrast by indicating the part of the courses
it, that are the same and also to show that each one of these
,7 schools has been constructed over a period of time to meet a
,,s particular need and that this is — that this is the reason
why there are no zones in high schools and never have been and
• ,,i not race.
The guidance — it's also an evidence of the discharge of an
affirmative responsibility on the part of the school system,
attempting to make available to all ninth graders by trained
personnel the kinds of opportunities — educational opportunities
think and their parents think, with
i \ the proof of fact that they are all different. Do not intend
It's an attest to prove a negative by affirmative.
H ' C H A R O S M • 1 M O f f " M c O j l I f R f I P O R H R
< JN i f ' t O S T A T | 8 ; S T R I C T O U K T
IJ
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17
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Carr - Direct 480
that this community has made available for each senior high
student. This is done through the function of guidance and it's
an educational reason, and that's the proof — the proof is
being offered on that basis.
q Mr. Carr, looking at the curriculum at Riverside, ,
i
II direct your attention to any aspect of its program that you
I
Imight characterise as unique or different as contrasted with
Riverside or City or — I mean it's contrasted with Howard or
City and not Kirkman. i
A I have already mentioned the pre-vocational
|
program in the tenth grade. I think this is the baeic differencf
i
that I can see in the vocational offerings.
q Well, what about the nan-vocational portion of the
curriculum? Direct your attention to the music section.
MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the leading.
THE WITNESS: That's the —
THE COURT: (Interposing) He may answer.
BY MR. WITT:
q Go ahead, answer the question.
A well, in the area of music, I guess Riverside does
not offer an orchestra. They do offer all the other general
music courses. Of course, glee club, band, general nusic —
there are two schools - two of the five high schools provide
orchestras.
■ I l C H A N U S M . r i i '*• A I. > O d H T W f e P O R f f K
■ i i ‘j r RI'. I C O U R 1O N I T M . 1 S T A ' L a
-
1 Carr - Direct 4aU
that this community has made available for each senior high
!student. This is done through the function of guidance and it's
4 an educational reason, and that's the proof — the proof is
I being offered on that basis.
|q Mr. Carr, looking at the curriculum at Riverside,
'7 II direct your attention to any aspect of it3 program that lou
x |might characterise as unique or different as contrasted with
i! i, I Riverside or City or — I mean it's contrasted with Howard or
City and not Kirkman.
A I have already mentioned the pre-vocational
program in the tenth grade. I think this is the basic differencj*
that I can see in the vocational offerings.
11
17
IS
q Well, what about the non-vocational portion of the
curriculum? Direct your attention to the music section.
MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the leading.
THE WITNESS: That's the —
THE COURT: (Interposing) He may answer.
BY MR. WITT:
q Go ahead, answer the question.
A Well, in the area of music, I guess Riverside does
not offer an orchestra. They do offer all the other general
music courses. Of course, glee club, band, general nusic —
there are two schools — two of the five high schools provide
orchestras.
<»«C 1« A U i J sw • WT P O H » t y<
i • N i T *• Cl s T V i a M G f R t t : ? w O U f l
Direct
” ;!Q
L
i .School.
it
i !Carr -
Would you name these, please?
This is Brainerd High School and Chattanooga High
481
i!
li
.1 Q
Is this the principal difference in the music
i. ^offerings in these four schools?
, A Based on the information that I have, this is
" really the only difference between the music programs.
All right. Do you see any other in the non-
vocational aspect at Riverside? Can you identify any other
ijdif ference?
A In the area of foreign language. Riverside offers
French and Spanish, whereas some of the other high schools
include Latin and Russian in their curriculum.
q Does Riverside offer more than one course in
French?
A That is correct.
q It does?
A well, they offer — now, by that you mean first
year, second year?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
q You know how many courses?
A No, sir, I do not.
q All right. Do you see any other differences or
! ‘ i
'I I
:>1
H I C M A U O L M TM O ' I K i A l - O U R T
uNirro siArts < tsrnicr o u r '
Carr - Direct 482
iu
Ki
17
I S
lit
.1(1
any aspects of the non-vocational curriculum at Riverside that
might be described as unique or special to Howard, 1 mean,
special to Riverside?
A Hell, I am not sure I understand the word "unique,”
because each of the high schools offer some courses that the
other one does not offer and —
Q (Interposing) What I mean is is there any course
that is offered at Riverside that is not offered anywhere
else?
A In non-vocational or general education?
Q Yes.
A I do not see — I do not know of any.
q Mr. Carr, in the course of preparing for this
testimony, did you prepare some material to indicate the
courses offered at different schools and a comparison of the
various courses, or did you have it prepared for you?
A I prepared this, but it wasn't necessarily for this
court hearing. It was for guidance purposes.
Many times I receive letters from people wanting to
know the course offerings in different schools. I felt this
was an easy way to show the composite picture.
Q Is this entitled "Course Offerings in the High
Schools of Chattanooga Public Schools"?
A That is correct.
M I C H A W " f ,M. '• - I A! CO t. ' * »r R t H ' H T T H
• x - . t : * r. * ► * l»l x» nil I t GIIR i
Direct 483!ica rr -
li
|q Would you make that the next exhibit to your
ij
[jtestimony, please?
THE COURT: No. 39.
if
it (Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
39 for identification, Witness
Mr. Carr, and received in evidence.)
ij
jj
BY MR. WITT:jj
Q Now, will you, using this as a guide, point out
the differences in the instructional area, indicating the
jextent to which the curriculum differs among the high schools?
■I
ij A For all high schools?
j Q Yes.
j A In the area of the arts, you notice that Kirkman
does not show art; however, in the vocational program, they do
offer commercial art. Now, this differs in that the commercial
THE COURT: (Interposing) Can we not just omit
reference to Kirkman, since that —
THE WITNESS: (Interposing) All right.
THE COURT: (Continuing) — school is not an
issue?
THE WITNESS: I previously indicated the orchestra.
I have indicated the foreign language, Latin and Russian, that
is not offered at Riverside. Latin and Russian, French and
' Spanish are offered at the other three high schools.
R I C H A R D S M I T H O f F ' v _ i A l C O u H f Rfr P O P 1 t'.H
U N I T t D » T * T t 9 D I S T R I C T c o u r t
1
III
11
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Q Before you leave the first page, what ia the
explanation for journalism being offered only at one school,
Brainerd?
A The only explanation that 1 have in determining —
well, in preparing a master schedule for the next school year,
I;the principal develops his schedule based upon the requests
jof the students. So, obvious that for this school year there
iwas a request for journalism at Brainerd High School and
isufficient number of students to offer the course. That would iI
j
be my explanation.
Q Now, continue with your examination, please, sir*
A In the area of science -- applied science is not
listed for Brainerd, Chattanooga High School, or Riverside.
Q In order for us to understand that, what does
applied science include?
A Applied science is a general introduction to science
If you recall earlier that in the state, students must have
one year of science to graduate from high school. Host of the
i
I youngsters in our school system are enrolled in the ninth grade junior high school in a course called applied science j
or general science which fulfills that requirement. Some of
them because of their electives that they may choose to take
typing or some other course in the ninth grade, do not get in
Carr - Direct 484
! 4 1 1 S I H ; I l O U » l
I,
ii
■icarr - DirectI!ti
'{that science. So, an applied science course is offered for
{{those who axe not or who do not desire to go into biology,
{chemistry, or physics.
As to a specific description of the courses, I am
«■ jnot qualified at this time to give that.
7 one other difference on this page, aerospace science
||
y jiis offered at only one high school, I think Chattanooga High
ii'' ijschool. This course has been there for several years. Think'j
•' is one of the first schools in the south to offer this program.
I have heard that statement made.
q well, what — skipped over physical science. Notice
that it’s only offered at Brainerd and Riverside.
A Again, I do not feel competent explaining why here.
q Is this language or this nosienclature based upon
ilsorae State guide or —l'1 Ii
t J|a (Interposing) Yes. These — in the rules and
{regulations of minimum standards, the courses are listed which
the State will grant credit towards graduation and this follows
the terminology that is used in the descriptive courses that s
used.
q Does this also mean that the State approves
certain books for these classes?
A That is correct.
j|Q All right. In the social studies field —
1 *
17 I
17
•u
IJ W* T r I* U I * M 1
O . l P I »*!»•«
i. I < O w n I
Carr - Direct 486 ii
j|A (Interposing) In the social studies# you have a
difference in American government# in world geography# and in
Afro-Asian studies.
Q Afro-Asian studies# I believe# started at City
and nowhere else? iJ
A This course was added to the curriculum this
i
school year, I believe, at the beginning of the second semester
I
of this school year. This was at the request of the administra-j
tion of Chattanooga High School to include this in their
curriculum. j
q I believe we have already covered the trade and
industry. Of course# there's no point to repeat that or the
industrial arts.I Is this Exhibit No. 39# is it current?
A Yes, sir# this is current.
Q Do you have a copy of the guidance material that's
used for Chattanooga High School?
I A Yes, sir.
q Would you make this exhibit —
THE COURT: (Interposing) Forty.I (Thereupon# the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
40 for identification# Witness
Mr. Carr# and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
q (Continuing) — forty to your testimony# please?
,M > ! . M , ) m C*' ' H />.! ( O l i h T e t - t ' C R f f - M
i l N i T V . j > u i t - a I* . »f Hl< r i O U K I
<<!t I I A
Carr - Direct 487
Do you know how this particular information was
prepared and for what purpose?
|A 1 do not know how this was specifically prepared.
1 do know that the Pivot in past years has been the student
(handbook fund this carries all the information of the operation
of the student activities courses, course requireawnts, for
Ij
ithis particular school.
q Is this used in the — by the guidance counselors,
this material?
A That is correct.
Q can you describe generally the manner in which it
is used?
A Copy of this is given to each student enrolled
in Chattanooga High School.
q I was speaking primarily, Mr. Carr, of the
guidance —
A (Interposing) Aspect?
q (Continuing) — function at the ninth grade level.
A Yes. A — the Chattanooga Board of Education has
a policy in existence that specifies the type of orientation
program which may be presented to our junior high schools by
the senior high school guidance departments. And upon request
of the junior high school, the guidance counselors fron the
five high schools are invited to.visit each of the junior high
! \Carr - Direct 498
schools to present materials pertaining to the course of
studies provided at their respective school.
This is part of that guidance material to uee by
Chattanooga High School.
Q Do you know whether or not copies of this material
are made available to students that indicate that they are
interested in attending Chattanooga High School?
10
11
11
i:i
;|A It's my understanding it is provided for those
■students who are actually enrolled at Chattanooga High School.
I do not think that it is given to every junior high school
student.
Q But, it is available to the guidance counselors?
A There are copies in each of the junior high school
guidance offices, yes, sir.
Q It appears to be more extensive than the other
material. Can you generally describe why this is?
A I think I previously mentioned, this is a student
handbook which carries all of the general rules, regulations,
operating procedures of this particular high school.
U All right. I hand you a printed pamphlet entitled
"Chattanooga High School Information for Pupils." Would you
please identify this?
A This is, again, materials used by the guidance
department of this particular high school for the purpose of
I
R ' C H A H r J S M t T H OT FIT <Ai. C O U R T R E P O R T C R
U N . ▼ T O S T A TIL'S O T j I R i c T < „ O U R T
1 arr - Direct 489
- informing students of requirements for graduation and thef| ourse — courses of study that are offered at this particular
igh school.
Q Would you make that Exhibit 41, I believe, to your
testimony?
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
,s 41 for identification. Witness
Mr. Carr, and received in evidence.)
10 BY MR. WITT:
Mr. Carr, do you have the similar Mterial that
ij is used at Brainerd High School in the guidance counseling
iprocess?
, I A I have material, type program of studies and
graduation requiresmnts at Brainerd High School.
H i q Will you make that an exhibit to your —
THE COURT: (Interposing) Exhibit 42.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
42 for identification. Witness Mr.
Carr, and received in evidence.)
jo BY MR. WITT:
■2\ Q Mow, Mr. Carr, is this material made available to
j ' 1 the guidance counselors on behalf of Brainerd High School?
•_>;i I a That is correct.
|q All right. Would you examine the non>voeational
•, aspect of this program and indicate any courses that are
i n . : - .. v i : A i i . O ' j I T H r C O K T »•
'jIRli i o <;»t
ll
II
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Carr - Direct 490
offered at Brainerd that are not offered anywhere else ori■(offered at Brainerd as well as other schools?
THE COURT: I assume that's Collective Exhibit 39,H}•
iiis it not?
k
Y MR. WITT:
jlQ I was under the impression one or two courses at
/Brainerd, maybe I am mistaken — *
A (Interposing) There is a course listed under
science, physical science, that is not listed at the other
Ischool — well, I'm incorrect. It's also taught at Riverside.
j
0 This would indicate that two years of Latin offered
■at Brainerd under — is more than two years of Latin offeredl! ’li
at any high school in the city?
A Again, this would be based upon the needs of the
|students in a given year.
Q No, Mr. Carr, I am speaking more or less of the
breadth of the course offering at the schools. Do any of them,
for example, offer Latin for four years, each year for four
years, Latin I, Latin II, Latin III, Latin IV?
|A I do not know the answer to that at the presentI time. In the course — of course, the State of Tennessee
allows four units in foreign language. So, if there's a need,
school would certainly follow through and offer, Z believe
|j that.
h ' l H A K I i *»M ' ' O M l< • M . i O'Jt'T H L P O K f f N
U N I T * ft *»T * T F. 5 I) S ’ * ' I i O U « f
m
J.Q Well, look at Exhibit No. 41.
A is that the Brainerd High School?
Q No, Exhibit 41 is information for pupils, Chattanoog4
High School.
A Yes, I am sorry.
Q Look under the language arts area.
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether or not German is taught at any
place other than City High School?
A German was — no, it is not. And, let me clarify
this, Mr. Witt. It is not offered at Chattanooga High School
this year.
Carr - Direct
( Q What is the explanation for that?
_ A Teacher moved out of town.IQ But — but does this indicate that generally that
German is offered at Chattanooga High School?
A It indicates, again, that the principal was planning
his master schedule. There was a significant number of students
who requested German. A teacher was available, so the course
was offered.
Q I see. All right. Look under the — under item
language arts, again. Speech I. Is speech offered at the other
a
high schools?
A Speech is offered in each of the high schools. Now,
• ' N i :!.«.» i r » I* * U U * T
jwhether second year —
|Q (Interposing) Beg your pardon? It's on this list?!!
>11 right. What about Latin at City High School?(
ttjjA As to the specific number of courses, whether it's•i
jfirst year, second year, or third year, I cannot answer at this
i* time.
||q What does this exhibit indicate?
jjA It indicated that, to me, it indicated that for the
11970-71 school year this particular school was going to offerii
only Latin I or II or these other languages, only two years of
Ithose languages.
I
i|Q What is the IV reference there for?
a I'm sorry, I didn't —
Q (Interposing) There is — it says Latin Roman
J
numeral I, Roman numeral II, or Roman nusmral IV.
j a Where is that?IQ l-'s on the eleventh grade.
A Brainerd High School?
Q Page three of Exhibit 41, Chattanooga High School
Information for Pupils.
A Oh, I am sorry. I was looking at the wrong place.
The only explanation I have for that is that's probably a
typographical error. You can't offer fourth year without
third year.
Carr - Direct 4S»2
R t r H A W * o* K ' 1*1 <_o«>KT
u n h *o Oisrmci r.oonr
3 fiCarr - Direct 493
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|q Well, thie refers to the eleventh grade, Mr. Carr.
liA Oh, the eleventh grade? Oh, veil, let we back up.
|n o , X am sorry, I can't answer that question.
q All right. Well, then, look over at the twelfth
grade under language arts and what does it indicate the offering^
are in — let's say, French?
A Senior may elect to take first-year French, second- !
[year French, third-year French, or fourth-year French, as a
senior.
q Are four levels of instruction of French offered at ,
any high school other than City High School? j
!
A To my knowledge, they do not.
q All right. What about Spanish? Does this indicate
that a student can take Spanish, four courses in Spanish?
A As a senior.
Q At City High School?
A AS a senior, yes.
Q But, does this mean
•j: i
period — three years in City High School he could take four
separate courses in Spanish, is that %*iat this means? Is that
what this means?
A What this means to me — what this means is a
senior student at Chattanooga High School, if I have never been
enrolled in Spanish, I may enroll as a senior in first year.
-i;< ' i a ■ * « »v> * • c M > C ’jur R» p o w t m
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If I have completed the first year, I say enroll
in second year and so forth.
q Do you know — is there any other high school in
the city that offers four years of Spanish other than City
High School?
A I do not know of any others. However, I would like
to clarify to say that there are competent teachers that could
offer it if there was a need for it.
q But, based on the material that we have been
examining, that would be?
A To my knowledge, that is correct.
q All right. Other than Latin, we covered that.
Does this indicate that there are three levels of Russian that
can be taken at City High School?
A That is correct.
q Is this true at Howard?
A Russian is taught in three of our schools —
Brainerd, Chattanooga High School, and Howard.
q Mr. Carr, I am now really directing my attention
to second-year Russian and third-year Russian. Your Exhibit
No. 39 doesn't distinguish between Russian I, Russian II, and
Russian III.
A All right.
q I am trying to clarify that.
Carr - Direct *94
H I ' »• A , i o S M ' f h O M •' A L * C ) « T I M . r - . H T I '
UNIT'D rj'AffS C SfRir.l ■ OURr
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A All right. The information I have — guidance
material I have that Howard High School offers Russian first
year and second year.
q All right. What about — again, is Russian — two
years of Russian offered anywhere else, is it offered?
A Brainerd High School offers two years of Russian.
Brainerd High School offers three years of Russian,
g All right. Now, I notice under the twelfth grade
under the arts program there is a course that's called Swing
Band. Is that offered at any other high school?
A It is listed under Brainerd High School as a
credit course.
g As a credit course? And, not any other high
schools, is this correct?
A To my knowledge, this is correct.
THE COURT: This be an appropriate place to take
the morning recess? Let's take a 10-minute recess.
(Thereupon, a recess was taken.)
BY MR. WITT:
g Mr. Carr, I hand you a pamphlet entitled "Story
of Kirkman Tech." And even though it's no longer part of the |
!
issues, I would like for you to make this an exhibit to your
testimony for the record so that all of our schools will have j
their pamphlets in the record. Would you identify this?
« l ‘. M A * ' 1' i M . i d 'Vi • i s . v C I l R T w r r O W T I (
• N ' l M - v - . - a • . . J i . i m ' ; » • O U K T
I
A This is guidance information pertaining particularly
to Kirkman High School listing the courses and the activities
within the school.
0 Make this exhibit —
THE COURT: (Interposing) Forty-three.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No. 43
for identification. Witness Mr.
Carr, and received in evidence.)
!
j
BY MR. WITT:
q Mr. Carr, you were in the audience yesterday during j
j
the testimony of Mr. Taylor, I believe?
A That is correct.
q Do you recall on cross examination by Mr. Williams
we introduced Exhibit No. 29 indicating the tenth-day enroll
ment data for 1970-71?
Would you explain what this attempts to show?
A This is the tenth-day enrollment. All finances
of the school system and most of your records are based upon
the enrollment for the tenth day and --
Carr - Direct 496
Q (Interposing) Who prepared this?
A I’m sorry, I do not —
Q (Interposing) It was not prepared at your direc
tion?
A No, sir.
m i C H A •!»'.' S M . > 1 H i - . O U ^ T H E o O R T l . w
• J N i l* • l i i v i w u . ; (‘. O U K 1
Carr - Direct 497
ii Q
a
How did it cane into your possession?
The question arose concerning the nusiier of tuition
\ ii
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students attending our high schools. And, in checking on this,
ii
!! this was the information that was provided to me.
Ii! q This material — does this material cone fromI school board records?
I!;i q
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Yes. This came to me from Mr. Taylor himself.
All right. How many tuition students are there
in Brainerd High School?
A There is a total of, now, as of the tenth day of
school, there is a total of 203 students paying tuition.
q How many of those are black and how many ere Miite?
A The 203, 8 are black, 195 white.
Q Do you know what tuition they pay?
A You mean the specific amount of money? Or —
j q (interposing) Approximately.
A Well, it depends on their residence. School Board
has a different scale depending on whether you live inside or
in the county, outside the city limits, or whether you live
out of the state, and I do not know those figures right off
hand; but those who live out of the state pay a considerable*
amount of money to attend the city school.
q Do you know how much the tuition is for students
that live outside the city limits of the City of Chattanooga
K K I ' A R L ) H 0 ‘ F K ’ i A L <■ O U B T P f H O N I t M
U N ' T L O S U M S t : ' S T R ' C T ( O U K T
Carr - Direct 498 IIbut inside Hamilton County?
A At one time it was $40 a year. I am not sure what i
it is this year.
Q Would you have any information as to where these
particular 203 students resided?
A I do not have it myself, no, sir.
Q All right. Now, let's look at Chattanooga High
School.
A There's 420 white students paying tuition to
attend Chattanooga High School. j
Q Of your — do you have any knowledge as to where
these students come from?
A You mean general —
Q (Interposing) Area?
A Well, they come from all over the city. I would
say a large number come from Signal Mountain, some from Red
Bank area, some from the Tyner area.
Q Is Red Bank High School desegregated?
A To my knowledge, it is not.
Q Do you know whether or not Tyner High School is
desegregated? j
A Tyner High School, yes, is.
q All right. Now, what does this indicate the
number of tuition students at Howard High?
. . N :
« O . - f t l H I P Q H T r H
••• » «<• T •: O U N •
Carr - Direct 499
A Indicates that there are 8 black students paying
tuition to attend Howard High School.
q Any white ones?
A No white.
q All right. What about Kirkman?
A Kirkman High School, there's a total of, on the
tenth day, 83 white students paying tuition.
q Any blacks?
A No blacks.
Q All right. What does this indicate is the total
now of tuition students?
A Tuition students in this — in the high school,
total of 16 black students paying tuition, 703 whites, for a
total of 719, grades ten through twelve.
One question you asked me I didn't — if I may go
back to Brainerd High School. I do know that a substantial
number of the youngsters at Brainerd High School reside in
East Ridge and they are paying tuition to attend Brainerd
High School.
q You say you do know this?
A I do know this, yes, sir.
q I hand you a document entitled "Chattanooga Public
Schools, Grades Ten through Twelve, Vocational Education
Enrollment, 1970-71."
H u H A R D i»M • T . < O* M l >Al I ' O ' J H T H M ' O M M H
I JN iT t - D S T A ' » a S l H i ' ( o w n »
Carr Direct 500
THE COURT: Exhibit No. 44.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
44 for identification. Witness Mr.
Carr, and received in evidence.)
BY MR. WITT:
Q Was this prepared at your request?
A I prepared this myself.
Q From the School Board records?
A This was compiled from information sent to me by
the respective local school coordinators upon my request.
q All right. This indicates that the — does this
indicate trade and industrial is the most desirable vocational
categories, does that —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) Oh, I object to that
as leading and suggestive, conclusion, if Your Honor please.
BY MR. WITT:
q All right. Mr. Carr, what does this — what's
the significance in your opinion of this material?
A Well, this material was gathered by me for the
purpose of making seem projections on the need for additional
vocational courses prior to this year.
Each month, the local teacher or the shop teacher
was required by the State to submit a monthly report allowing
the enrollment. This year the State has gone to data
processing, and those records bypass my office, so this was
* « C H A « 0 S M i . H r t • \ _ C O U R T S t p Q R T F R
N I U O 4 T A . e s i i » r w. CT l O l - P I
Carr - Direct 5 0 1
a way of my knowing the total number of students enrolled in
the various categories of vocational education in the
respective high schools and also to get a grand total of the
composite picture of youngsters enrolled in vocational
reimbursed programs.
The significance, of course, the numerical stand
point — the vocational shop programs in trade and industrial
education, certainly, where our largest enrollments — I think
that is where we would expect to be and the second highest
would be in the area of home economics, vocational home
economics.
Q Does this indicate that any of the five high
schools — students of any of the five high schools respond
in exactly the same manner to the course offerings?
A No.
Q Are any two of the schools substantially the same?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to that, calling for a
conclusion.
MR. WITT: He is qualified to make the conclusion.
THE COURT: Well, he may answer.
THE WITNESS: I am not sure that I understand the
question.
BY MR. WITT:
Q Examine this and then answer whether or not any
Carr - Direct 502
of the two schools -- any two schools of the five have the same
results as indicated by the figures on this exhibit?
A No, because of the differences in the offerings
and the desires of the young people, it differs as to the
number who enroll in specific courses,
g Mr. Carr —
THE COURT: (Interposing) Let me ask, what is
that 43.4 percent, what is that?
THE WITNESS: Of the total number of students in
grades ten through twelve, 43, this was my information, 43.4
percent are enrolled in one or more reimbursed vocational
programs. I- was attempting to sell my program to the students
in the city.
BY MR. WITT:
g Did I understand you, 43.4 percent of the total
of high school enrollment?
A Yes, of the grades ten through twelve.
q All five high schools?
A All five high schools.
q One or more courses?
A That's correct. May I give a brief explanation
of why?
Q Yes.
A Over the period of years, there's been a stigma
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attached to vocational education or the word vocational. Most
people — or many people are enrolled in courses that are
vocational and don't realize it. I was trying to point out
here that 43 percent of our high school kids are taking a
vocational reimbursed program. Many times they weren't aware
of it.
And, their parents sometimes say this is for some
one else's child, whereas their child is receiving, they are
not aware of it.
Q Mr. Carr, did you participate in the Board conferencje
meeting last evening?
A No, sir, I did not.
Q Do you recall the information that was provided
by the Board generally with reference to where the graduates
of the five high schools go the next year following graduation?
Are you familiar with that activity or that report?
A I am familiar that that is done each year. I am
not familiar with a report that has been compiled this year
if there has been one.
Q Are you familiar with the report that was prepared
for last year?
A I have read it, but I have not studied it in
detail.
Q Mr. Carr, returning for a moment to the handbook
Carr - Direct 503
M i C H A t t D S V I T I It A L C O l l R f R f f O R f f P
ONI f t 11 i M T f - S (• S I N K ’ « O U P T
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of City High School, doe* thi* handbook, cover extracurricularV.
activities and opportunities at City High School?
A To my knowledge, this book covers their club
program their athletic program, yes, I would say it does
include extracurricular offerings.
q Does this include a literary magazine?
A This, I am not —
q (Interposing) I noticed — direct your attention
A (interposing) It doe3 include publications which
does include their school newspaper — their school annual
of the clubs
and --
q (Interposing) Can you just list
that they have — on page 60?
A The Alumnettes, the Anchor Club, Audio-Visual
Club, Bankers Club, Bible Club, the Boosters, Bulldogs, Chess.
q I will just get you to count them. There’s too
many of them.
A Quite a group.
q Is there a comparable club program at the other
high schools?
A Each of the high schools have some type of clubs;
some which, in my mind, you might classify as service clubs
and some might be in my interpretation more social clubs.
But, I don’t believe that they are to the degree or to the
R t O A H ! ! S V ■ • ( At . t O U H V H f r »
> *i, \ » i > S T A ' M . I > S l f - | ( f C . O U « T
SOS11 Carr - Directlj
|! number that are Hated in this handbook, those that I amljj! familiar. I —
I MR. WITT: (Interposing) I believe I have no
||jj further questions of Mr. Carr.
I CROSS EXAMINATION
j BY MR. WILLIAMS:;j “
! q Mr. Carr, since Howard and Riverside are both
| all-black schools, would you say that offering the vocational
,j courses there tends to perpetuate segregation?
A I wouldn't see how.
Q You wouldn't see how?
A No.
Q If the vocational courses were not offered at
Howard, then students who — or Riverside, then the black
students who elect those courses would have to go where to get
them?
A Wherever they might be offered.
0 And, where are they offered other than at Howard
and Riverside?
A Now, you mean in numbers or just vocational?
q Vocational courses, the vocational courses that
are now offered at Howard and Riverside and are not offered
at Brainerd and Chattanooga High. Where would the black
students have to go to get them?
U N I T * !> S r A i
At t O . . . * * w i i ' I L H
S r q . M f O U N T
I1
j | A They would go to Kirkraan.
0 All right. And, Kirkraan is an integrated school,
isn't it?
A That is correct.
q And, Howard and Riverside are both racially
segregated, now, are they not?
A As far as I know, they are.
Q So that if those courses were not offered at those
two black schools, some of the tendency would be to integrate,
wouldn't it?
A That's possible.
Q Well, that's true, isn't it, sir?
A Well, if they wanted the vocational course.
q Yes. The tendency would be to integrate so then
you are driven to conclusion that the offering of those
courses there tends to help perpetuate segregation, doesn't
J Carr - Cross 506
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it?
A
Q
A
Q
I don't follow.
You don't — you don't follow that?
No, sir.
Well, all right. Vocational courses are not
offered at Drainerd and Chattanooga High in the quantity and
number that they are offered at Howard and Riverside, are
they?
b M d H ■' • •( > ( O I J W T M P f ' K I ' F *
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Carr - Cross 507
A That is correct.
q Have the vocational courses always been offered at
Riverside High School?
A To ray knowledge, they have since the school was
established at Riverside High School.
q All right. Now, then, that was in 1963-64, wasn't
it?
A Assume that's correct.
q Now, prior to that, that was Chattanooga City
High School, wasn't it?
A You mean the building?
q Yes.
A Yes, sir.
q All right. And, the vocational courses were not
offered there at that time in the depth and quantity that
they are now?
A To my knowledge, they were not.
0 All right. Then, you were aware — do you know
how it came about that the vocational courses were offered,
were established at Riverside when it became Riverside?
A n o , sir, at that time I was not involved in the
decisions.
q All right, sir. Now, then, when that school was
Chattanooga High School, the last year, 1962-63, that school
R I C H A R D i i M - T M O f f ' I A C C O U R T P t f O R f f H
U N I T i D S T A I ’F S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
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building that is now known as Riverside, it had no blacks and
1,059 white students according to Exhibit 3.
When it became Riverside in 1963-64, it had 1,794
blacks and no whites, did it not? Those figures are also
reflected in Exhibit 3.
Do you still say that you fail to understand or
see or follow the conclusion that the establishment of
vocational courses there tends to perpetuate segregation?
A Mr. Williams, at the time that this decision was
made on Riverside High School, I was principal at Kirkman, and
as to why they were established —
q (Interposing) I am not talking about motivations,
you see. That's where you don't understand me.
I am not talking about motivations. The fact that
the courses are there and available to black children, you have
conceded, tends to keep them from — from going to Kirkman
High School, which would be an integrated high school. You
have already conceded that.
Now, then, don't you likewise concede as a
necessary conclusion following from that, that the fact that
the courses are there then must necessarily tend to help
perpetuate segregation?
A In my mind, I couldn't conclude that.
q Why not?
Carr - Cross 50#
W I C . H A N O S M M o* ‘ • M . v ' O U r t f R E P O R T S . *
U N I T E D 6 T A IT.S n ■ j i R i i . f C O U R T
50 9!; Carr - Cross
H
| A Well, for example, there are some courses offered
ij|| at Riverside that are not offered at Kirkman that a white
! youngster who wanted, say, for example, masonry, could go to
l!| Riverside for the course, so —
i|
j Q (Interposing) All right. But, what I am saying
|l is that — that may be true? but, the whites — have any of
I!
!j those white youngsters gone?,!
j A To my knowledge, they have not.
i Q All right. So, then, we then cc»ne back to the
i!point that since there are no white children who are electing
''
|jj| the distinctive courses that you have at Riverside, the fact
'iji that you have at Riverside, courses that are also offered at
Kirkman — vocational courses, tends to help perpetuate segre
gation, doesn't it?
Well, again, you are asking me —
(Interposing) The black children are there, aren't
In my opinion.
Are the black children at Riverside?
Yes, they are there.
And, you established the courses there for them,
didn't you?
A No, sir, I did not.
Q Well, the school system?
A
Q
they?
A
Q
A
Q
R I C H A R D S M I f n O F F ' C l A l C O U R T ( » f ' » O R T t
U N I T E D S T A T E S S T R I C T C O U R T
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A The school system.
Q So, the fact that the courses are there makes it
possible for Riverside to have black students in vocational
education, doesn1t it?
A That's true.
q And Riverside is a segregated school?
A That's true.
q so, it does then tend to perpetuate segregation,
doesn't it, in that sense?
A Not in my mind.
q So then — all right. Then, you as an educational
official of the Chattanooga school system, in your approach,
have no ability to grasp the significance of the inclusion of
educational courses in a black school which are also available
in a white school as tending to lock those children — those
black children into that black school, is that true?
A Well, certainly, I wouldn't agree with that. The
decision as to the courses that are offered —
q (Interposing) Then, you have no sensitivity
towards that?
A I don't think I have said that or I didn't imply
or didn't mean to say that.
q All right. Well, then, my question is whether or
not you, as an educational official of the Chattanooga school
Carr - Cross
R l C i d ' i r S M T H O F - < M C O U R T h F . P O R T F R
U N C f f O S I A I t . s T - O U R '
Carr - Cross ill
system, are capable intellectually of understanding the
significance of providing vocational courses — establishing
vocational courses in a school located in a black neighborhood
in terms of the effect of that on the likelihood of black
children then going to an integrated school in another neighbor
hood?
A May I —
q (interposing) Are you intellectually capable of
understanding the significance of that?
A I think so.
q All right. Then, having the capability, having
that capability and knowing that Chattanooga City High School,
when it was in the Riverside, had no vocational courses, do
you recognize any significance in the establishment of
vocational courses there the very year that that school was
destined to become a black school?
A Mr. Williams, in my opinion, the courses of study
established for Riverside High School were based upon data
of someone furnished that this was the desirable course of
studies for Riverside High School at this time. That is my
opinion.
q All right.
A Which included — pardon me, sir, which included
some vocational courses.
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L . C O U R T P t ^ O R T t R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U P T
Q That included the vocational courses?
A Yes.
Carr - Cross 512
Q
A
Q
And race had nothing to do with it?
To my knowledge, it did not, no, sir.
All right. Are you aware, Mr. Carr, that in 1963-64,
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when Riverside High School was made — when the school yes
named Riverside and turned over to blacks that the high schools
were still openly segregated as a matter of rule of the Board
of Education under the desegregation plan?
A Yes.
Q Then, you would have to change your opinion, wouldn
you, because those vocational courses were established there
under the old principle of separate but equal, weren't they?
A I really do not know why they were established.
Again, I said in my opinion they were established to meet the
needs of the young people who were attending Riverside, who
planned to attend within the first year of operation.
q Yes.
A This is to my knowledge.
q But, were blacks admitted to Kirkman High School
that year?
A I do not believe they were.
q All right. So, then, the vocational courses were
established there for the purpose of meeting the needs of
R I C H A R D S M ' T H O* ! ' A I . C O U R T R f P O R T F
u N i T f o s t a t f s m s m i n c o u r t
Carr - Cross 514
Llack children, weren't they, in a black school?
A
Q
A
Q
in
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Q
A
Q
For students in Riverside High School.
Well, they were black?
Well, if they were —
(Interposing) You can understand the Meaning?
Yes.
You somehow avoiding the use of the word •black"?
No, sir, I try to look at students as students.
Let's look at them as black and white students,
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because that's what we are dealing with in this lawsuit. The
students were black there?
A That's true.
Q So, that then these vocational courses were
established for black students, then, weren't they?
A That is correct.
Q Yes. And so then the maintenance of those courses
after desegregation reached the high schools in 1966-67
tended to keep the black students at Riverside, did they not,
the black students who wanted vocational courses which might
have been offered at Kirkman?
A Of course, they have a choice to attend the school
they wanted to.
Q Yes. But, the maintenance of those — where is
Chattanooga High located on the map?
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A Oh, it's on Third Street, I don't know. j
Q Is that in North Chattanooga? Is it?
A The new Chattanooga High School?
Q Yes, the new Chattanooga High.
A Yes, it's in North Chattanooga.
Q Where in North Chattanooga, across the river?
A Yes, it's across the river.
Q Over near the Normal Park School, near the Spears
School? They said it was somewhere near Spears Avenue.
1
A Up above that.
Q That would be up in here somewhere?
A That's correct.
Q All right, sir. Now, Riverside is down here in
the heart of town across the river, isn't it?
A On Third Street, yes.
u Yes. Does the location of a school in the immediate
neighborhood of students have some tendency to draw the
students to that particular school?
A Oh, yes.
Q Yes. All right. So, that then if if Kirkman
and Riverside were offering identical courses and these were
primarily black children living down here, their tendency would
be to go to the school albeit since it's offering the same
course, to go to the school in their neighborhood, wouldn't itl
Ml* •< A M U ' V . 7 l l '• * a . « H U R T N* “ O H r t M
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Carr Cross bib
A That's conceivable. I think there are other
reasons as to why youngsters attend various schools.
Q Neighborhood is not especially important?
A No, I didn’t say that. I said there are other
reasons why.
Q So then, you do concede then that the location of
that particular school in the neighborhood would tend to draw
the students there, would have some tendency?
A Yes, it would have some tendency.
Q And so, then, if the school were all black as River
side is and you put courses there, you continued courses that
you had previously established there under the rule or law
of segregation, you continued them after the school was
allegedly integrated under so-called freedom of choice, then
that would have a tendency to keep the students from intregratirg
the Kirkman High School, wouldn't it, to some extent?
A Well, maybe to some extent.
q Yes, all right, 3ir. Now, if you look at Exhibit
39 — if you look — you have that before you?
If you look at Exhibit 39 and just scan it objectively,
what you would have to conclude, would you not, would be that
in general the curricula of all of the high schools in
Chattanooga are, with the exception of Kirkman which is a
special kind of school, are comparable, wouldn't you have to
I
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conclude that they are comparable?
•i A I think I indicated that all schools — there are
certain basic courses every school roust offer for graduation
and that they are certainly comparable.
r. ]|-Q Yes. Now, there are certain basic courses that
all of them have and then there are elective courses that may
vary, and there's not too great a variance in even the elective
courses, is there, when you look at it broadly?
A Well, it depends on what you are talking about, I j
mean. ;
q You have — you find a few specific instances of
variances that have been pointed out here by adversary counsel;
but in general, looking at it broadly, each of the elective
courses, they all have pretty much — pretty much the same
tiling?
A They are all qualified in math, in science, this
type —
Q (Interposing) Yes. And they all have pretty much
sociology, psychology, and the other courses that might —
unified geometry, advanced math, and the other course that
might be considered elective?
A I think one of the differences that is not reflected
on this particular sheet is when you get into the second, thirdj
years of specific courses.
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Q Yes, all right. Well, now, let me ask you, in
connection with that, have you made any surveys of the extent
to which there have been transfers among the high schools in
order to secure these special courses that are offered by one
and not by the other or to secure these advanced years in
subjects like French or Spanish?
A Have I? No, sir, I have not.
q As a matter of fact, you are Director of Vocational
Education, are you not?
A At the present time, yes, sir.
q When did you become Director of Vocational Educa
tion?
A Officially this school year, August, I believe, of
this school year.
q up to this school year, you were Director of
Secondary Education?
A That's correct.
q Did you make any surveys to determine, for instance,
how many black students may have transferred from Howard to
Chattanooga High to get the second, third, and fourth years of
French?
A No, sir.
g So that actually any testimony that you might give
with regard to the extent to which the — extent of the use and
Carr - Cross 517
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Carr - Cross 510
need of these advanced elective courses that you are talking
about would be -- would be speculative, wouldn't it?
A I don't know I would agree with you on that.
Q Well, then, fine. Then, tell us what surveys you
have made and the results.
A I am not saying I conducted the surveys, but from
the instructional materials which have been purchased by the
schools through my office, oh, materials for third and fourth
year, particularly language courses, is obviously a difference
in the number of students who enroll in those courses.
Q What do you mean by a difference and what are you
talking about in terms of numbers?
A Well, maybe one class, when you get into third
and fourth year courses.
q What you mean is — are you saying, then, that there
is one class in third and fourth-year French at Chattanooga
High School?
A I am saying that one teacher usually does not
teach four or five courses of thixd year of a course. There is
not that much demand. When you get into areas of this, you
become a little more specialized. The students are a little
more specialized and a little more selective.
q I don't think I follow you. What I am trying to
find out is whether or not there is any -- you have any
R K . H A H D S M I T H O ' f l i A l w O l J U T R t - O f i i H J
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> information available that will tell the Court the extent of
the use of any of these special courses or advanced years in
4 elective courses that you say are available in one school and
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not available in another?
A I do not have that at my disposal here.
q That information is not available?
A No, sir.
o All right, sir. Now, as a matter of fact, how —
describe to the Court the process by which these elective
courses or the advanced years in elective courses are activated
in a particular school?
A In other words, whether the principal decides to
offer third or fourth year.
q How does the principal decide that?
A All right. About this time each year, we have pre-i
registration for the next year in the respective schools.
A
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Yes.
Which students sign up or develop their course of
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studies for the next year.
q And —
A (Interposing) From this, the principal determines
the number who are requesting a given course. And from this,
he determines the number of sections he will need in a given
course.
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Carr Cross 520
0 All right. And, then, how do the students know whs
course to request or sign up for?
A This is done through an orientation guidance
program. This is the responsibility of the guidance department
within each respective school.
C And who operates the guidance department?
A I am not sure I understand.
Q Who operates the guidance department, guidance
counselors?
A Well, it’s under the direction of the school
principal, but the guidance counselors are responsible for the
guidance activities in the school.
Q And they are employed by the Board of Education?
A That's correct.
Q So, they in effect advise the students what to ask
for?
A No, they do not advise them. They explain to them
what is available.
q Well, you mean guidance counselors don’t advise
students?
A They advise.
Q Sir?
A I am getting on semantics here. They orient them.
Q Isn't there some other word you prefer to use than
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advise?
A
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A
I used the word "orientation."
What do you mean by orientation?
They inform the students of the courMi that are
available to them prescribed, approved by the State board of
Education and the Chattanooga Board of Education.
q Don't they — don't guidance counselors also find
out something about the background and attitudes and aspiration!
of the students?
A Certainly, this is a part of it.
q And, this orientation is not merely negative in
which they — negative operation in which they simply give
information, is it?
A I certainly hope it isn't.
q As a matter of fact, they find out about the
students and they suggest to them the direction trtiich they are
to go individually, don't they? Isn’t that the function of the
guidance counselor?
A That's one function.
q Yes. And, so, to that extent, then, the Board of
Education does play a part in the at least in their ““
in the elective courses which are established in these schools,
doesn’t it, through it3 guidance counselors?
A Yes. I believe, Mr. Williams, I explained previous
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that any new course added to the curriculum must be approved
by the local board.
q Right. We haven't gotten to that yet. We axe
now at the guidance counselors stage.
Students are guided on the suggestion or at least
with the guidance and counsel of the guidance counselor. The
students decide what courses to request?
|| a students and parents in our school system, the
j1 parents are a part, we hope, of this decision.
q Fine. All right. Now, if the students and parents
select courses which have been offered the previous year, then
that creates no problem, does it?
A Generally speaking it would not.
q jf they request a new course to be established,
what is the process, then?
A The process — the principal submits to the
Superintendent of schools through the proper channels the
request including the course outline and all data pertaining to
this course. And, from there it would be approved.
q All right.
A By the local board and submitted to the State
Board for approval.
q All right. Is there any limitation of the number
of students — what is the number of students that would have
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Carr - Cross 523
to be — that would have to request a course before It can be
offered?
A I don't know that there is a specific m s i n r .
Again, you get to the problem of staffing within a school.
Teachers are assigned — if they are assigned on the ratio of
one to thirty and you only have ten, someone else, you know,
students have to be diverted to someone else %diich overloads
them.
q All right. Then, there's no minimum number? If
three students ask for a course, it would be established?
A It could be established.
Q Could be established?
A Not economically feasible, but it could.
q All right. But, what is economically feasible?
A I don't know.
q But, there is such a number, isn't there, in most
school systems?
A I am not aware if there is, sir.
q All right. But, you do concede that whether it's
a new course to be established or whether it's a continuation
of the old courses that have been previously offered, this is
an continuous process? Believe you conceded — you have
testified it's a continuous process year after year?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
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q That is correct, isn't it?
A You mean as far as enrolling and so forth?
q Right. So that — so that then if the high schools
in Chattanooga result — if the high schools in Chattanooga
were zoned and some of these white people out here in the
Brainerd area where they have a classical high school were zoned
into Howard where they have this so-called comprehensive high
school that you are talking about and the students made their
request for courses, any unique courses that had been offered
at Brainerd, that was not then offered at Howard, then would
that request not go into this process and evolve into an
ultimate establishment of that course at Howard?
A If I followed you correctly, I got lost somewhere
in there.
q I can put it very simply. Wouldn't this go on —
wouldn't this process that you have described go on even if
the schools were zoned?
A I would hope it would. This is the only way the
principal knows how to establish a school setting.
q So that if the students — if some of the students
who now attend Howard were zoned out to Brainerd and some of
those who now attend Brainerd were zoned into Howard or River
side, although they might have had a course at Brainerd by
virtue of these requests that wasn't offered at Howard or
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Riverside, they would still have the opportunity to request
that course at Howard or Riverside, wouldn't they?
A Certainly.
q And, certainly, the black children, if they had a
masonry course here at Riverside that wasn't available, they
would still have the opportunity to request it out here at
Brainerd, wouldn't they?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
Q That's true?
A In this process, certainly.
q Yes. Now, then, have you ever heard, also, of
the use of transfers to secure — from one school to another
to secure an educational program that was not available at the
other school?
A We have used that in our high schools, yes, sir.
I don't think we have called it transfers, but if I may use
an example.
q Yes, sir.
A If you notice, Kirkman High School does not offer
physics.
q Yes, sir.
A If we had a youngster who desired physics, we would
work his schedule where he could go to another high school to
pick up the physics, is that what you are talking about?
Carr - Cross 525
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- j Q Yes.
1 j a Right, that's been a very snail number, but we have
1 done that.
■* | Q And then, have you — is this the only school
1 I aystam you have cone in contact with, Mr. Carr, have you had
S same experience with other systems?Iij■s j a You mean as far as employment?
j q Cither employment or investigation.
ioj a well, I visited other school systems, yes, sir.
i! i q Are you aware of school policies similar to that,
i.’ that they have in Nashville, wherein —
i ; a (Interposing) No, sir.
,, q That they have in Knoxville wherein if a student
|-, desires a course of instruction that is not available in the
)(, school, in this high school wherein he is soned, he may
transfer to another high school where that is available?
A I am not familiar with that, Mr. Williams.
<j All right. Well, at least insofar as technical
courses, vocational and technical courses are concerned, the
Kirtouan High School is virtually all-inclusive, isn't it?
A Cron the definitions of vocational and technical,
as far as the offerings are concerned?
Q Yes.
A Yes, I think so.
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Carr - Cross 527
q Yes, and, oh, there is something else I want to ask
you about vocational schools. Does the location of two
comprehensive high schools in the black neighborhoods down hero,
do you see any effect that may have in terms of encouraging
blacks to elect vocational courses; that is the location of two
schools that have — that have vocational programs there, right
there in the neighborhood?
A I am sorry, I am not following you on this.
q You don't see any effect that that might have?
A I don't understand your point.
q Well, all right. Take a child out here in Brainerd,
a white child out here in Brainerd. In order to get a vocational
offering or being exposed to it, he has to go all the way over
here to — over here to Kirkman, doesn't he, Kirkman, Riverside,
or Howard?
A That's correct.
q Over here?
A That's correct.
q Now, you have already conceded that distance does
have some deterrent effect. The tendency there is, at least
some tendency to go to school in your own neighborhood if you've
9 got one there.
I ^ i think you asked me about the kids who lived
around Riverside would have a tendency to go to Riverside. I
q ' C H A H O S M T M O F H A L ; O - . i R T MfcPOWifcW
U N i T L f ’ S T A T F S D I S T R I C T C O U « T
J
said —
q (Interposing) Wouldn't the sasa bs tree with re<
to the children at Brainerd?
A It could be true, yes, sir.
q Yes. So that the lack of any vocational courses at
Brainerd tends, in light of that tendency to go to school at
h a a e, tends to encourage the children at Brainerd to oloet the
traditional academic courses, doesn't it, in t o m s of a
geographical pull?
A This is true.
q And, the location, then, of the vocational schools
at Riverside and Howard, then applying that sane principle*
tends to encourage these children to elect vocational offerings
because they are there, available for them ri^ht in thnlr oun
backyard.
Do you see that as an educator?
A It's conceivable, yes.
q Yes. Now, then, would you say that the course
that the vocational courses at Howard and Riverside are primarily
vocational while those at Kirkman are primarily technical or
primarily technical and vocational at Kirkman; hut primarily
vocational at Howard High and Riverside High?
A Well, if you went on a ratio basis, Z would say
that the vocational in all three putnumbers the technical.
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I q Well, are there any at all at Howard that you would
I call technical?
ISA I would call the drafting program a technical
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classify.
Q
technical?
A
Q
A
All right. Anything else?
1 believe that would be the only one I would
Are there any at Riverside that you would call
•J!
1 would include the drafting and the electricity.
Electricity. Now, that’s —
(Interposing) No, I am sorry, drafting.
Electricity, in my interpretation, would be more of a vocational
whereas electronics would be more theory.
q Now, how many courses — go down the Kirkman list
and tell His Honor how many courses at Kirkman you would call
technical.
A I would call drafting and electronics» the others —
q (Interposing) How about machine shop?
A Well, now, if you want to break the shop down into
categories — if you are just training a boy to operate a drill
press, I don’t think that's a technical —
q (Interposing) You have more than that there?
A Yes, we have more than that, yes, sir.
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Q
A
point.
Q
subject?
A
Q
A
You have some very technical machine shop work?
Well, I will say it’s technical, won’t argue the
How about refrigeration, isn’t that a technical
5 3 0
Not necessarily.
Well, as it’s taught there, isn’t it technical?
I would say — you asking me my opinion? I think
it’s more of a vocational.
q You’d say commercial art is not technical?
A If you recall, I gave the definition which technics,
included a great deal of theory with math and science background,
so in that, I don’t see that you’d need that in commercial art.
q I see. All right. Well, then, based on what you
have just testified -- however, there are more technical course^
at Kirkman High, are there not?
A This is the reason the school was established.
q There is also a greater variety of vocational
courses and vocational courses which are offered are offered
in greater depth, aren’t they?
A Not necessarily in the ones that are comparable
the depth.
q Didn't you say that the difference between general
metals at Riverside and sheet metal —
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A (Interposing) You are asking specific — you said
in general, for example, in drafting there is no difference to
me in the program in any of the three.
Q Well, yes. But, what I am saying is that in general,
most of the courses which are offered at Kirkman are either
technical or if vocational, are in greater depth, aren’t they,
most of them, not all of them?
A Well, again I think we are playing on words here.
q No, we are not playing on words. Let's go over
it, then, if you insist —
A (Interposing) All right.
q (Continuing) — on that.
Didn’t you say with regard to distributive educa
tion, you said that was the same in all, is that right?
A That’s correct.
q All right. Home economics is the same in all?
A That’s correct.
q Office occupation is the same in all?
A That is correct.
q is auto mechanics the same in all?
A That is correct.
q Auto — but at Kirkman you also have auto motors,
don't you?
A You have auto motors which is a course offered
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Carr - Cross 532
for tenth-grade students only which feeds them into auto mechanics.
q So that then in that area, the area of auto mechanics,
Kirkman offers a program which is in greater depth, doesn't it?
;•> | ft n o , sir, they offer an additional course which is
not offered at Howard or Riverside.
q Doesn't that constitute greater depth in that
particular field?
!i A It conceivably could, yes, sir.
10 Q Now, then, they offer commercial art which is a
1 1 different kind of a thing. Is cosmetology the same in all of
12 them?
l i A That's true.
1 l Q Drafting is the same?
r> A That is true.
i<; 0 All right. Now, is electricity the same?
17 A Yes .
is Q
But, you have electronics, though, also, don’t
10
you?
A That is true.
21 Q But, you have a technical course and in that area
22
of electricity, is the electricity course itself in greater
2-1
depth at Kirkman?
2 1
A At Kirkman than Riverside?
2-">
Q Yes.
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Not to my knowledge, it is not.
Well, have you ever —
533
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A (Interposing) Now, you talking about the electronic
or electricity?
Q Electricity.
A To me —
0 (Interposing) It's not? All right. All right.
Then, you have — you have several courses here
that are, you say, are vocational, you say are not technical
that do provide greater depth in the area of vocational educa
tion than either of these schools, don't they?
A Yes, sir.
0 All right. So then, the conclusory statement
which I put to you was correct, was it not, that Kirkman, in
addition to offering more technical courses, offers vocational
courses in greater depth than either of these schools?
A It offers a wider variety of vocational opportunitii
Q All right. If you want to call it a wider variety,
that's fine.
A Well —
Q (Interposing) Some of them, as you have said.
it offers in greater depth — didn't you say that the sheet
metal course at Kirkman had greater depth them the general i
course at Riverside?
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A That is true; yes, sir.
q All right.
t h e COURTj perhaps this would be an appropriate
point for the noon recess.
V e ry well, let's be in recess until 1:15. We will
resume the trial at 1:15.
(Thereupon, the noon recess was taXen.)
a f t e rnoon s e s s io n
(Thereupon, pursuant to the noon recess, court
was convened at 1 = 1 5 o ’clock, p.m., when the following further
proceedings were had and evidence introduced, to-wit:>
by MR^_ WILLIAMS:
' ar_ carr, you referred to curriculum groups which
frequently. fr«= time to time, evaluated school programs. Did
any of these group, publish their evaluations?
A I don’t believe I implied they evaluated schools,
i said these were planning groups within each school to develop
curriculum in various areas.
0 And, did any of these groups publish their .value-
tions?
A well, they developed course outlines as result of
their work; I have seen some, yes, sir.
Q you have seen some published evaluations of
curriculum groups?
534
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A No, not evaluations, of course outlines.
0 These were for classes within a school?
A Yes. In other words, English department, teachers
will get together as a curriculum group to plan the course of
study for their respective school.
Q All right. Mere there any special considerations
given to needs arising from integration in connection with any
of these evaluations?
A Well, again, Mr. Williams, you are using the word
"evaluation" and I am using it in terms of program planning.
q All right. What special considerations were given
to needs arising from integration in the program planning
accomplished by these curriculum —
A (Interposing) I do not know the answer to that,
sir.
Carr - Cross 535
Q
A
Q
A
for that.
0
You know of none?
No, sir.
To what —
(Interposing) I am saying I do not have an answer
I don't know whether it was part of it or not.
Well, then — then you know of no such considera
tion?
A
Q
That's correct, yes, sir.
All right. To what degree are the vocational
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curricula at Howard and Riverside duplications of any portion oi
the Kirkman curriculum?
A You mean as far as what is taught within each course
Q I mean substantial duplications, yes.
A Well, from the standpoint of the program as listed
on the Exhibit 37, distributive education, auto mechanics,
cosmetology, drafting — DI means office occupations.
Q All right, sir. Home economics is?
A Oh, I am sorry, yes, home economics.
q All right, sir. Now, then, I think you said earlier
that carpentry is likewise a duplication since woodworking at
Kirkman simply includes — includes that in greater depth. It
includes furniture making.
A I said — yes, it included more machine working.
q All right, sir. Now, with regard to this masonry
that is offered at Howard and Riverside, that is needed
primarily for black children, isn't it?
A You mean the trade of masonry?
q Well, let me clarify this. Isn't it true that
union apprentice groups have provided — provide for the most
part training for whites in the field of bricklaying, that is
not provided —
A (Interposing) I am not sure that that's correct.
q Could it be possible that that is the reason that
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Carr - Cross i37
masonry is asked for in the schools by blacks and not by whites?
A I would not concur with that.
0 Don't know about that? All right, sir.
Now, how would you explain the extreme preponderance
of white students involved in technical training at Kirkman
wherein there are 1,089 whites and 129 blacks? j
A This is the major difference between Kirkman High
School from the other high schools. This reflects the total
enrollment at Kirkman, Every student that attends Kirkman is
enrolled in 3ome vocational program.
q All right, sir. The thing is — the thing that I
askinq is how do you explain the great preponderance of \rfiite
students there, especially in light of the fact that in Howard
and Kirkman combined there are eight hundred some odd black
students who are enrolled in vocational and technical training?
The only answer I could give is this is trttere they
have elected to go to school.
q The black students have just elected to go to
Howard and Riverside, is that right?
A well, I don't know that this total number at Kirkmajn
is reflected.
q Referring to Exhibit 44, that was just a little
fa3t mathematical calculation of mine from your Exhibit 44.
A Yes but this does not reflect whether they are
!
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white students or black. Both students are enrolled in these
numbers.
n There are no white students in Howard?
A No, I was speaking of Kirkman.
Q Combining the 313 and 4y0 enrolled in trade and
industrial in your Exhibit No. 44, unless my mathematics are
wrong, that gives us 803 black students enrolled in trtiat we
call technical or at least vocational trades —
A (Interposing) Yes, sir.
Q (Continuing) — in Howard and Riverside?
We have only 129 blacks at Kirkman as against
1,089 whites at Kirkman in technical training. How do you
explain that?
A Well, I am not sure I follow you» but, reflected ir
the Riverside, I mentioned the pre-vocational program which is
not a 3-hour block of time, so there in the tenth grade, there
could be a substantial number of tenth grade students in the
pre-vocational, which would increase this number preparing
to go into a full 3-hour block in the eleventh and twelfth
grade program.
(j You don't have that at Howard?
A No, sir.
Q You still have a substantial number of blacks in
the vocational trades at Howard, don't you, 313?
Carr - Cross 533
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A Three hundred thirteen, yes, sir. I am not
q (Interposing) You have any other explanation for
the great majority of white students well, rather for all
of the white students going to Fulton and the great majority
of the black students going to Howard and Riverside -- I don't
mean Fulton, I am thinking about the Knoxville school system
Kirkman?
A I think, as I mentioned previously, there are other
factors as to why young people select to go to different high
schools. Curriculum is one. There are other factors. As to
why they -- white students have selected to go to Kirkman, I
cannot answer that.
q Regardless of the factors, though, it does appear
rather clearly that their selection, their choice has resulted
in a racial distribution?
A Yes, there's no —
Q (Interposing) And that racial distribution consist|
of total segregation at Howard and Riverside, does it not?
A To my knowledge, there have been no white students
that elected to attend Howard and Riverside, that's true.
And a very small proportion of blacks at Kirkman?
A I am not familiar with the number but —
0 (Interposing) Well, the numbers will speak for
themselves.
Carr - Cross
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Isn't it true that Chattanooga High and Brainerd
High have no vocational courses except perhaps hoae economics?
A They do not have — veil, distributive education.
q Distributive education?
A And office occupations.
q Office occupation at Brainerd?
A That's true.
q Isn't it then quite possible that black pupils are
encouraged to stay in the black schools by the duplication of
Kirkman's offering?
A I do not have the answer to that, Mr. Williams. I
do not know.
q Well, that would be the natural effect of it,
though, wouldn't it? Without regard to whether it actually
happened or not, that would be the effect of it?
A It could be.
q Well, would you say that your instructors at
Kirkman are in any way superior to the vocational staffs at
Howard and Riverside?
A in my opinion, the — I did not employ any of the
instructors; but in my knowledge of the instructors, they
are equally qualified based on their vocational competence.
q Certainly, there is no significance influence to
move the black students into a formerly all-white technical
Carr - Cross
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Carr - Cross 541
program. Is there?
A I am sorry. I missed that question.
Q Well, since the courses are substantially the same,
the instructors are just as good as you have indicated, there
is no significant influence to move the black students from
Howard to Riverside into a formerly all-white technical program
at Kirkman, is there?
A Now, I am not sure what you mean by influence.
There is, you know, high school students can attend any of the
five high schools.
Q Yes. But, I mean, in terms of the actual condition
of the conditions of the offering, conditions which are
controlled by the school system, there is no significant
influence that would encourage them to move from the blade
schools into the white schools, is there, into the white —
into the Kirkman School, is there?
A Only other than the curriculums that are offered.
It's there for those who want to participate.
Q All right. And by that you are referring to the
curriculums that — the courses that might be offered in
addition to those that are offered at Howard and Kirkman?
A Well —
Q (Interposing) Howard and Riverside?
A Curriculum offered in any of the schools. 1 assusw
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Carr - Cross S42
this is one of the factors why the young people select to go to
a particular school.
Q All right, sir. Now, what is the racial compos it lot
of the vocational advisory committee?
A This committee was just recently established. It
is — committee actually established through the Chamber of
Commerce. It's known as the Chamber of Commerce Committee on --
for Vocational Education. I have only attended one of the two
meetings that have been held. I do not even know all of the
eleven members so I am sorry I cannot —
Q (Interposing) Are there any black parsons on that?
A Yes, there is.
0 How many? t
A Well, as I say, I don't know all eleven members.
I know that one member of our staff, Mr. Echols, is a member
of that.
Q Mister who?
A Echols.
Q He a black man?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is the black-white ratio of each course in
Kirkman which is also offered in substance at Howard and
Riverside?
A I am sorry, I do not — do not have that information
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Carr Cross 543
Q All right. Is that information available in your
records?
A Not in my records, no, sir.
Q Is it available? Could you furnish us that
information?
A I am — the reason I am hesitating, the principal
is here, I am sure that —
Q (Interposing) The principal of Kirkman is here?
A Yes. I am sure it could be compiled, yes, sir.
q All right, sir. You understand that he is going
to testify?
A No, sir, I did not.
Q Would you, since you are the Director of Vocational
Education, would you undertake to secure that information for
us and furnish it to the Court?
A You want the racial composition by each shop?
Q The racial composition, the black-white ratio of
the pupils enrolled in each course in Kirkman which is also
offered in substance at Howard and Riverside.
Maybe we better just say in each course at Kirkman.
That will get the whole thing.
MR. WITT: May it please the Court, we don't mind
giving information, but this is not easy to get together, and
I don't quite understand what he is getting at.
/H I G H AH l> S M I T H O M I U A L C O U R T R f f* OH TF* »
U N I T E D S T A T E S O l S T R I C T C O U R T
] Carr Cross 544
- THE COURT: Well, let's see how difficult it may be.
MR. WITT: Mr. Carr didn't indicate that there would
4 be any substantial difficulty.
THE WITNESS: Just in time in going to school and
visiting each class and checking the enrollments.
.)
(,
i BY MR. WILLIAMS:
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Q You don't keep record by race?
A To my knowledge, we do not; no, sir.
0 Well, I understand the reports have been made
annually to this Court and to the Department of Health, Educa
tion and Welfare.
A I am saying, in my knowledge, we do not keep
attendance data in individual shops by race. We, again, are
talking about students.
Q All you understand, we are not asking for anything
complicated. All we are asking you is you state that you
list — you list approximately 15 — and that's just a visual
count — courses of study that are offered at Kirkman High.
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All we are asking is the breakdown by race in each
of those courses.
A I have said I will get it for you just as soon as
I have the time; yes, sir.
q Thank you, sir. Now, with reference —
A (Interposing) Excuse me, Mr. Williams, as of today
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Carr Cross 545
or the tenth day of school?
0 Either, actually, as of today if you have it and
if you also have as of the tenth day of school, why, we'd be
glad to have that, also.
Isn't it true that with the exception of maybe
a single course or two there are no substantial differences in
well, I think you have already answered this, haven't you, that
there are no substantial differences in the comprehensive
nature of the curricula of the various high schools, that's
true, isn't it, except with the — except for a few scattered
course differences?
A I think we went over the different courses.
Q So then, these allegedly different curricula of
the high schools cure not only minimally different but they are
3imply scattered course differences due to what may be
temporary interest of a given student body and are not educa
tionally engineered program differences, are they?
A The differences occur as result of the express
needs of students.
Q Yes. So that they are not — they are not formulat
from above and imposed on the students? They simply occur as
a result of student solicitation based on their interests?
A With the exception of the required courses for
graduation.
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Q All right. And, I think we have already covered
that, that this would operate in terms of the zoning system as
well as it would in terms of freedom of choice?
A ('Witness moves head up and down.)
Q That is correct?
A I think you mentioned that, yes, sir.
Q Hell, that is correct, isn't it?
A The process would be the same.
Q Yes.
A Where students are, right.
Q Do you in fact have any evidence to the effect that
to any significant degree, high school students are selecting a
particular school because of its unique curricula offering?
A 1 have evidence that this is one factor.
Q What is that evidence?
A If I may be personal, I have three students myself,
three children.
Q You have three children?
A Right, who attend one of these schools because of
the curriculum offerings that are not offered at the school
they normally would attend.
Q All right. But then, that process of activation
of courses, of new courses by solicitation of students would
likewise be applied to them if they were moved to another
Carr - Cross 54$
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school?
547
a Yes, sir, it could. I think of one I night mention
one area that — I don't know if it's an exception, but the
school system initiated a math program several years ago in
which first-year Algebra was to begin in the eighth grade.
The objective was to take those students who have high mathe
matic ability and provide for them five years of mathematics.
The fifth year will be added to our curriculum the next school
year.
So, in this sense, this was a comprehensive plan
ning program between the schools and the Central Office in
designing a math program.
Q All right. That is something which could be
controlled by the school?
A Yes. Well, it would be controlled by the — how
many are eligible to go into these advanced classes, correct.
0 Well, I mean, there is nothing that ties that to
any particular school, though, is there?
A It is tied at the present time because of the
limited number who have selected Algebra I in the eighth grade.
That has been restricted, to my knowledge, to — well, I don't
think it's been restricted. I think it has been — participa
tion has only been in, to ray knowledge, only three of the
junior high schools.
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Carr - Cross 5*8
Q All right. Which school of — courses did your
children have to go to another school to get?
A Pardon?
q Which courses did your children have to go to
another school to get?
A
Q
Some of the science and math courses.
I mean, which school did they go to to get those
courses?
A
Q
A
Q
They are attending Brainerd Senior High School.
Brainerd?
yes, sir.
Of course, that Brainerd — what is the socio
economic complexion of the student body at Brainerd generally,
would you say that's generally a middle class?
A Yes.
q White student body?
A Yes.
q And then, what is the socioeconomic complexion
of the student body at Chattanooga City High School?
A I would say they arc comparable.
q To Brainerd? So, then, we have two generally,
two white middle-class high schools in the case of Brainerd
and Chattanooga City.
And then, what is the ethnic and socioeconomic
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complexion of Riverside and Howard?
A I don't know how to adequately — I would say they
are based on the number attending. There are.a larger concen-
t ¥• •
tration of youagsters with disadvantage.
q Blacks and disadvantaged?
A well —
q (Interposing) Well, actually are they all blacks
and the large concentration of them are disadvantaged blacks,
is that correct?
A Yes, there are some.
q All right, sir. Now, which school would your
children normally attend?
A They would normally attend East Ridge High School
which is in the county.
q You live in the county?
A Yes, sir.
q x see. So that — so that your children — the
evidence that you have with regard to children selecting a
particular school relates to children who are not even a part
of the Chattanooga school system; namely your own children?
A If I use mine as the only example, but having been
a high school principal, I don't think my knowledge is
restricted just to my own children.
q All riglit. What, have you made any surveys at all
Carr - Cross >̂49
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Carr - Cross 550
to discover any empirical evidence in this regard?
A No surveys, no, 3ir.
q Now, did you mention East Ridge? Children from
East Ridge going to Brainerd?
A I don't know whether —
q (Interposing) Is this little — what is the name
of this little town here out here in the eastern portion of
Chattanooga?
A That would be East Ridge, I assume.
THE COURT: No, making a mistake. He is pointing
to Shepherd Hills.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
q Is that Shepherd Hills?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
q Where i3 East Ridge located? What portion of the
county?
A It's in the southeast.
0 Is it near the airport?
A Well, it's further east of that, right down here
down at the bottom, come on down over.
G In Georgia?
A Over to your left. Now come —
Q (Interposing) Oh, I see, yes, yes.
Now, is that — is that a segregated residential
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Cross 551
area?
h I am not sure of the racial composition. I'd say
the majority of the residents of East Ridge are *iite, yes.
Q All right. And you say — you said that you believ*
that most of these 195 white children out of the city — white
children in Brainerd High on Exhibit 29 are from Bast Ridge?
* NO, sir, I did not say that.
2 Well --
k (Interposing) I said some of them are from East
Ridge.
q some of them are from East Ridge?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right. Some of them from Shepherd Hills?
A I do not have that information.
q Shepherd Hills have a high school?
A No, sir, it does not.
q Where do the children in Shepherd Hills go to
high school?
A i do not know. I can assume some of them go to
Brainerd and some go to private schools, but I really do not
know.
q shepherd Hills is a totally segregated, incorporate
area within the — surrounded by Chattanooga, isn't it?
A To my knowledge it is, yes, sir.
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1 Carr - Cross 552
I
Q Yes. So, then, what we find is that the county —
that the city is furnishing educational facilities to white
children who live in the Shepherd Hills area and in the East
Ridge area, both of which are outside the city limits on a
tuition basis under this freedom of choice situation, is that
correct?
s A
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This is covered by Board policy, yes, sir.
You say this is covered by Board policy?
That is correct, yes, sir.
Well, it's being done, that's what you mean?
A Yes, it is, yes.
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Q And, where do these four hundred — nearly — I
notice that nearly — that over one-third of the white children
who are attending Chattanooga City High up here in the north,
the new one that they built, are from out of town — 425 out
of 869, according to your Exhibit 29.
Where are those white county children coming from?
A They are coming from different sections. 1 would
assume, again, that some are coming from Signal Mountain.
0 Coming from where?
A Signal Mountain.
Q Where is that, over in this area?
A Over in the northeastern area on the north side
aof the river. /
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Carr - Cross 553
| u Well, don't they have high schools In the county?
A Yes, sir, they do. They do not have on Signal
Mountain.
Q So, what we find is the City of Chattanooga is
furnishing high school facilities for large numbers of white
children in the county and on a segregated basis and furnishing
black segregated high school facilities for black children in
the interior of the city?
A Well —
n (Interposing) Is that true?
A I think, Mr. Williams, there's two ways of looking
at this: One is the standpoint that substantial numbers of —
we use the 425, could conceivably attend the completely
segregated school by attending, say, Red Dank High School where
as they are choosing to pay tuition to attend an integrated
school.
Q All right. Now, did you know that Brainerd High
School was constructed in 1960?
A If you have this data.
q Did you know that Chattanooga High School, that's
the new city, vtfiite Chattanooga High School, was constructed
in 1963?
A Yes,
Q Sir?
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A Yes, uh-huh.
0 Now, then, did you know that the Howard High School
was constructed in 1953?
A I wasn't familiar with the year, but I am sure
that that's correct.
0 And that the Riverside High School was constructed
in 1920?
A I wasn't aware of that.
Q You were aware that the Riverside High School is
a very old building, are you not?
A 1 am very familiar with that, yes, sir.
Q All right. Mere you able to intellectually conceive
any element of discrimination in the moving of black children
into a building 50 years old and the building in the heart of
town and the moving of — construction of a brand new white
facility out near a white suburb?
A At the time those decisions were made, Mr. Williams,
1 was notvinvolved.
Q Well, 1 understand that. I am not accusing you
of anything. What I am asking you, are you able to intellectually
conceive an element of discrimination in that action?
A Well, 1 think you could conceive it if you —
which way you want to look, yes.
q All right. The large number of tuition students
I
Carr - Cross 554
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Carr Cross 555
filling the spaces in the Chattanooga and the Brainerd High
Schools tends to, at least — well, let me ask that another
way.
Could you conceive of any way — any way the
large number of tuition students in the two suburban white
high schools might discourage any effort on the part of black
children in the interior of the city to attend, to move out
and attend those integrated schools?
A Mr. Williams, under the Board policy, 1 do not
conceive of it this way. The parents, families, who send their
children to these schools by paying tuition understand that
it is on a year-to-year basis depending on the condition of the
school.
<j Yes. But, if those — if those spaces were vacant
in those white suburban high schools and an assignment policy
were initiated, then that would provide greater integration,
wouldn't it?
A Well, if you took 425 out of Chattanooga High
School and replaced with 425 blacks, I would concur that that
would.
q The fact that the 425 spaces in Chattanooga High
school are filled by white children from the county, wouldn't
that tend to have some deterrent effect on black children
exercising a choice to go up there, knowing that the school
R I C H A R D S M I T H O f F I C l A L C O U R T R E P O R T F.
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was already filled to some extent?
A In my judgment it would not, Mr. Williams, but —
Q (Interposing) It would not?
A But you are asking me. I don't think so. I don't
see how it would. Again, if the youngsters understand that
there are from year to year —
Q (Interposing) Well, yes, but in what ways has it
been made known to the black community that those vacant spaces
are available and are being filled by white children from the
county?
A Each guidance teacher from the five high schools
visit all junior high schools to explain their programs. If
they are residents of the City of Chattanooga, they have first
choice on any seat in the school as opposed to a county resident:
Q Have the guidance counselors, to your knowledge,
made any effort to try to encourage black children to transfer
to City, Chattanooga City High School, or Brainerd High School?
A I think they have explained the programs of the
schools. As far as an effort to get more of the students to
attend, I cannot answer that, no, sir.
Q You have no knowledge of any such efforts?
A No, I Jo not.
Q Have the guidance counselors made any effort, to
your knowledge, in the junior high schools to try to encourage
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white children — white high school children to enter Riverside
or Howard?
A Not to my knowledge, no, sir.
I
Q Is there anything at all about the freedom of
choice system of assignment to high schools that you can cite
that has tended to encourage or foster increased integration?
A I do not have the records showing the change in
the composition of the schools in the last three or four years.
I think from my knowledge that at Brainerd, Chattanooga tfigh
School, and Kirkman, there has been an increase; but certainly
in Howard and Riverside, there has not been. So, that's about
the only way I could answer that.
Q You have — you could say nothing other than what
you have said as to anything that — about the freedom of
choice system that has tended to increase, to foster increased
integration, do I make myself clear?
A No, I lost you a little bit there.
Q All right. In your answer to my last question,
you — your answer simply was that you heard that there were
a few more blacks?
A No, I didn't say — I said I know there are more.
Q You know?
I A Than there were three years ago.
1 Q But, that really wasn't responsive because I was
Carr - Cross 557
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Carr Cross 5 5 8
asking you can you state anything at all about the operation
of the freedom of choice system of assigning schools to —
assigning children to the high schools in the City of Chatta
nooga which — —
A (Interposing) I have not.
Q (Continuing) — which would increase integration?
A I have not conducted any studies or looked into
that issue so I could not adequately answer that question.
q You can't think of anything at the monent about
it that would increase integration?
A No, sir.
Q Can you think of anything about the system of
freedom of choice assignment which would eliminate segregation?
A I really haven't given it any thought.
G The way — as a matter of fact, the effect of its
operation has been at least to leave segregation in effect,
hasn't it?
A Well, you are asking — again, only thing I know
is based on my experience and what I have seen on the
u (Interposing) What you have seen is that Howard
and Riverside —
A (Interposing) Are still —
Q (Continuing) — are dtill all black?
A This is correct, yes, sir.
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MR. WILLIAMS! All right, sir. Believe that's
all.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
q Mr. Carr, as I understand, it is one of the
contentions of the defendants that all of the various high
sell00Is are different, that they have been developed to meet
the needs of particular students, and that this is the reason
or one reason for not zoning those schools, do you understand
that?
A Yes, correct.
THE COURT: Well, now, if the high schools were
zoned, would you not still attempt to meet the needs of the
students in those schools?
THE WITNESS: Certainly I would hope that would be
one of the — that is the principal purpose of education.
THE COURT: Well, what relationship is there, then,
between the — not zoning of the schools and the present
curricula that you offer? As I understand, you said that you
don't zone because you offer a curricula that varies from
school to school; but would you not offer a curricula if tjey
were zoned that vary from school to school?
THE WITNESS: In my opinion, in the areas of what
I would classify as general education, you would again develop
your program based upon the needs of the students. It would be
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Carr Cross 5 6 0
difficult to duplicate some of the —
THE COURT: (Interposing) If, for example, you
were to take the present Riverside population and move it to
City High and take the present City population and move it to
Riverside, would you not still attempt to meet the same needs
of those students having those respective schools?
THE WITNESS: You are talking about meeting the
needs of people rather than a school building, this is correct,
wherever --
THE COURT: (Interposing) And if it'3 possible to
establish these courses rather readily than to change them
from one year to the next --
THE WITNESS: (Interposing) Within the framework
of the local board and State Board, they can be changed, yea, s:.
THE COURT: And they can be changed just, matter of
one year to the next year?
THE WITNESS: This is possible, yes, sir.
THE COURT: Do you have any opinion as to why the
vocational courses are concentrated in the Riverside and Howard
Schools? It appears from looking at your schedule of curricula
that the principal difference in curricula between your various
schools is in the matter of vocational training, is it not?
THE WITNESS: One, yes, sir, one of the differences,
THE COURT: Well, that and language is about the
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- only difference, isn’t it?
I
-' THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And, what would be your evaluation as
to why the vocational training programs are concentrated in
<• Howard and Riverside?
1 Carr - Cross •>bi
I THE WITNESS: As opposed to Brainerd High and
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Chattanooga High or —
THE COURT: (Interposing) Yes, as opposed. Those
are the only other two schools.
THE WITNESS: It’s my understanding that at the
time Brainerd High School was constructed that this curriculum
was a joint effort of the Chattanooga school system and the
community, developing a community school concept, and apparently
at that time there was not an express need for vocational
courses to be located in the Brainerd High School.
THE COURT: Well, is there or not, in your opinion,
any relationship between the racial composition of those
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schools and the fact that vocational courses have been
concentrated in those schools; if 30, what is that relationship
in your opinion?
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THE WITNESS: I am sorry, I —
THE COURT: (Interposing) I say is there or not
in your opinion any relationship between the concentration of
vocational courses in those two schools ar.d the racial
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composition of those two schools?
THE WITNESS: In my opinion, there's no relationship
between the course offerings in any school and the racial
composition.
THE COURT: Well, how would you explain, then, the
fact that there is this concentration of vocational courses
in those two schools?
THE WITNESS: At the time — getting back into
areas that I was not involved in the vocational field at this
time but at the time that Howard High School was established,
students attending Howard could not attend Kirkman High School.
So, they were meeting the needs of the students enrolled at
that particular time, in my opinion.
THE COURT: I see, all right.
MR. WILLIAMS: Your Honor's questions have elicited
one or two that I ought to ask, if I may.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
0 And you have thus admitted the racial relationship
in the establishment of the vocational courses, now, at both
Howard and Riverside, haven't you, Mr. Carr, because you have
admitted that at Howard as well as at Riverside that Howard,
from its very inception, had the vocational courses because of
the dual segregation system, that is correct?
A To my knowledge, that's correct.
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Q And, although the old City of Chattanooga -- City
of Chattanooga High School did not have them, just as soon as
Riverside was made a black high school in 1963-64, they were
established there, were they not?
A The old Chattanooga High School, now, you are
talking about the old Chattanooga High School? I don't know
how far back you go, but I do know that vocational programs
were offered at Chattanooga High School at sometime in its
history.
I do not know the years, but I know they had
printing and auto mechanics and one or two others, because
much of the printing equipment that is at Kirkman High School
cane from Chattanooga High School so at sometime —
Q (Interposing) But, they did not have the extensive
vocational program that Riverside — that was established at
Riverside, I think you would testify?
A Not at the time the new building was constructed
is my understanding they were not.
Q So, that then the vocational program was establishe
at Riverside in a racial context, also?
A Well, it was constructed or it was developed
because there was a felt need for the students enrolled in
Riverside at that time who were all black students, yes, sir.
0 And, then, in 1966, when the desegregation plan
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Carr - Cross 564
covered high schools or whenever the first year it was, that
vocational offering was continued at both lloward and Riverside?
A To my knowledge, principal of either of those
schools have never made a request to eliminate any of the
vocational programs.
Q Was any consideration at all given to the elimina
tion of those vocational offering duplications and the assigmnei
of the black children to Kirkman or the establishment of
offerings in Brainerd and City of Chattanooga as a means of
integration?
t
A I do not know the answer to that, sir.
q Well, you were the Director of Secondary Education
then, weren’t you?
A In --
(Interposing) In 196 3-64?
A No, sir.
Q In 1966?
A I just cane into office in 1966.
0 All right, did you yourself as Director give any
consideration to the elimination of those vocational offerings
as a method of integration?
A As Director of Secondary Schools, I had no relation'
ship to the vocational program, so I could not make that
recommendation; however, I did not make any such recommendation,
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Carr - Cross
Q And
system who did?
A z 0
0 Now
565
And, you don't know of anybody else in the school
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No, sir, I am not aware.
Now, there's one other thing I omitted asking you
on direct examination, I am sorry, on your original cross.
It is true that in 1963-64 when Riverside was established as
a black high school, that a system of zoning was then set up
as between Riverside and Howard, wasn't it?
A I think there was, yes, sir.
Q In order to prevent — of course, you had all the
black children attending those two schools, then, by school
law?
A Right.
Q And, in order to regulate the school capacity in
those buildings, zoning was established between the two schools^
A To my understanding, there was.
q And, that zoning continued until the first year
of school integration in the high schools, did it not?
A I really do not know the answer to that, Mr.
Williams.
Q You didn't know that? At least you knew it was
established?
A Yes, I knew that at the time the new school was
established, there was some way of dividing the student bodies
vi
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q And, did you likewise know that the entire tAiite
student body, then, was moved out of Riverside and -transferred
to the new Chattanooga High School in North Chattanooga that
year?
A Well, I knew that none returned to Riverside the
next year. Now, whether they were moved out, I M a n , they
chose to go, I suppose.
0 Did you — were there not white children living
still in the zone of Riverside at that time?
Carr - Cross 566
A In 1963?
Q Yes.
A I really do not know.
be.
Q Indeed, are there not
within the zone of Riverside over by the river here?
A There may be.
q So, that the effect of freedom of choice was in
that context, was to lock black children in and zone them as
between the all-black Howard and Riverside High Schools trtiile
freedom of choice permitted white children living within these
zones to travel this considerable distance up to the new
high school constructed for them north of the river, wasn't
it?
A In 1963? Yes, sir.
H I C H A R O S M . T W O f F X I A L C O U R T R t P O R T E R
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MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir, thank you.
MR. WITT: Mr. Williams, here's the material you
asked for if you want it.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
MR. WITT: You don't get much better service than
that.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, sir.
May it please the Court, I'd like to have a copy
made of this and introduce it as am exhibit.
THE COURT: Well, if you wish to file it, file it
as an exhibit and then we will make copies.
MR. WILLIAMS: Let me go ahead and file it as I
may file this as the next exhibit.
THE COURT: What is the document?
MR. WILLIAMS: It is a listing of the numbers of
students by race in each of the — well, actually it's a
listing of the — a breakdown of the 129 black students enrolls:
in Kirkman High School with regard to the course that they
are enrolled in.
MR. WITT: Mr. Carr, of course, has no personal
( T h e r e u p o n . tne doc irnent re f e n
knowledge of this at all. t c a b o v e was narked e x h i b i t
Witness Mr. C a r r and r e c e i v e d
THE COURT: All right.evidence.)
MR. WILLIAMS: After it's introduced —
THE COURT: (Interposing) Exhibit No. 45.
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MR. WILLIAMS: (Continuing) — like to ask him one
question about it, if Tour Honor please, after it*e introduced.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
q Mr. Carr, ask you to take Exhibit No. 45 and compare
it with Exhibit No. 37 and tell His Honor how many of the
129 black students at Kirkman High School are enrolled in
courses which are also offered at Howard or Riverside High
School?
I think we can do it more quickly — I thought you
could do it quickly. If you could just —
A (Interposing) I was just trying to see what he
had down — home economics is not reflected here, so auto
mechanics, three.
Carr - Cross 568
Q All right.
A Distributive education,
Q All right.
A Drafting, there are two
Q All right.
A Cosmetology, zero.
Q Uh-huh.
A Electricity, three.
Q All right.
A Woodworking, eight.
Q Well, now, woodworking
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Carr - Cross 5*9
A
Q
A
0
I thought you were —
(Interposing) Just give us the ones that are —
(Interposing) Business education, fifty-eight.
Well, now, business education is not offered at
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Howard High School, is it?
A Yes, sir, office occupation — excuse mm, different
terminology covers same program.
Q Oh, is that the same program?
A Same program, yes, sir.
Q It is the same program?
A Same program.
0 All right, all right. So then, total then of sixty*
nine of one hundred twenty-nine are enrolled in courses that
are duplicated. The others — the majority of those students
then were going to — black students who are going to Kirlunan
High School are receiving courses that are not offered at the
other high school, is that correct?
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A
Q
A
Sixty-nine out of one hundred and —
(Interposing) One hundred twenty-nine?
One hundred and twenty-nine, yes, sir.
Well, actually, about half and half?
Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS: All right, thank you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
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Carr - Redirect 570
BY MR. WITT:
Q Mr. Carr, in the initial part of your cross exam!na
tion, Mr. Williams asked you a question something like this*
whether or not the continuation of the vocational programs at
Howard and Riverside did not tend to perpetuate student
segregation at Howard and Riverside.
Do you recall that question?
A I do. I think that's the one I had trouble with,
yea, sir.
q Now, I direct your attention to Kirkman during the
same period of time and it is in the record already that %rt»en
the high schools were initially desegregated in 1966-67, 35
blacks entered Kirkman. The next year, the number increased to
57. The next year, it was 29 — beg your pardon. Start again.
I was reading the wrong school.
Kirkman was one in 1966-67; three in 1967-68;
twenty-nine in 1968-69; sixty-four in 1969-70; and one hundred
twenty-nine in 1970-71.
Now, my question to you is this: With reference
to Kirkman, were vocational programs at Kirkman in 1966-67
substantially the same as they are now?
A With the exception of the health occupations,
they are the same.
0 All right. Then, were the vocational programs
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at Kirkman maintained following desegregation up until now?
A Yes.
<j Did the maintenance of these programs at Kirkman
perpetuate segregation, student segregation?
A Not from the numbers just read, no, sir.
0 This is a part of the record?
A Yes, sir.
Q Nurabers are in the record? Excuse me.
Mr. Carr, various times in your testimony and
also on cross examination, you made a reference to the needs
of students and you are, I assume, are speaking of their
educational needs.
Now, how do you identify the needs of students,
educational needs; more accurately, how does the school system
to your knowledge identify these needs?
A Well, one way that we identify, certainly, would
be through a standardizied testing program that we test young
people to see where they are performing, the given time, given
place.
From this you can determine, for example, the
field of reading, whether they are in need of remedial teaching
or whether they are performing at grade levels. Projections
can be made by this. I think the classroom teacher has the
observation, as indicated earlier, by, I think, someone, the
Carr - Redirect 571
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‘2 records of the young people, followup; and the teacher in the
:i school attempts to maintain a program of instruction as
i indicated by this collection of data.
:> Q Now —
<; | A (Interposing) May I say this, Mr. Witt? There are
j Carr - Redirect 572
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other needs, to me — 1 think all of us in education — other
than just strict, academic needs. Many kids are attending
school because of extracurricular activities or they attend
school because this is where their peer group is attending.
So, they are influenced by many, many factors;
but these are all needs that are being met for that particular
individual.
Q All right. When you were the principal of Kirkman,
did you consider needing to know what these needs were as a
part of your job, the needs of the children in the school?
A It’s very difficult to provide a course of instruc
tion for every youngster if you do not know his needs.
Q Do you spend much time attempting to ascertain their
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needs?
A At the time I was principal, I scheduled each
student personally, individually, so I could do the best I
could in matching him in courses that — based on what his
particular problems or assets might be.
Q Then, did you design programs to meet these needs
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Carr - Redirect 57 J
as you understood them?
A Yes, sir, certainly attempted to.
Q Does this determination or evaluation of student —
individual student needs, is this a — capable of objective
measurement?
A Standard tests, yes, it's —
Q (Interposing) Are there limitations to such tests?
A Oh, yes, a test is just a given performance at a
given time under given circumstances. There are limitations,
certainly.
Q Do you know of any way that you could have a part
in creating the needs for students?
A I am not sure I am following you, Mr. Witt.
Q How would you, as a principal, go about attempting
to alter needs of a child, educational needs?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to all this. Your Honor
please. I don't see the relevance.
THE COURT: He may answer.
THE WITNESS: I don't know that I would attempt
to necessarily alter. I think the alteration would have to
come from the student himself.
I might counsel with him and point out certain
weaknesses he might have or assets that he might have and show
him alternatives; but I think the decision must came from the
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students.
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Q Are you saying that you must start with the students•
needs as they are, is that what you are saying?
A Absolutely.
U Mr. Williams elicited from you coimnents with
reference or recitation with reference to a student who had
been bused from Kirkman, I think, to another school for the
purpose of taking a course in physics.
Does such transportation require the time of the
] i student?
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A In all cases which I am familiar with, the student
was responsible for his own transportation. Now, we did
attempt to schedule the youngster so that a study hall would
be involved which would take care of — provide sufficient time
to get from one location to the other without missing his
class.
0 So, then, the student gave up his study hall in
order to transport himself from one school to another to take
physics, is this correct?
A This is correct. We worked this out between the
receiving school so that the youngster would not miss a regular
scheduled class.
Q Who paid for this transportation?
A The student was responsible for his own transportation.
R I C H A R D S M I T H O f F ' t l A L C O U R T R F . P O R T t R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
.1 Carr - Redirect
•_» q is this a sound and wise use of time from an
:i educational point of view?
4 A In my opinion it is.
q Would it be as a standard practice for a large
number of people?
A I could think of some instances wnere I would think
it could be.
q But, this particular instance occurred how
io frequently, the one?
,, A rive years I was principal, I can only think of two
students that were involved in this.
Q would the same educational values be applicable if
,, 100 students were involved?
A Well, if you had 100 students involved in this
type — you would schedule this within your own school building
because you would have the teacher to, you know — your need
has arrived that you determine or that you need a certain number
of sections for 100 students.
Q In your Exhibit No. 44 which is entitled "Grades
Ten to Twelve Vocational Education Enrollment," in response toI a question from Mr. Williams where he was comparing the, as I
understand it, the number of students at Riverside and Howard
in trade and industrial with the number at Kirkman, would all
of the 313 students at Howard that are included in that figure,
R I C H A R D S M i r H O t m . H L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
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Carr - Redirect 576
would all of them be taking a minimum of three periods in that
area?
A In all probability, there is some duplication; for
example, you notice there is 128 listed under home economics.
Out of the hundred twenty-eight taking home economics, I am sur*
that some of those girls are taking cosmetology that would be
reflected twice.
I think I said at the beginning this reflected the
number of students taking one or more courses in vocational
reimbursed courses.
q So, to accurately compare, you would have to break
these figures down into statistics, reflecting the ones that
were taking one course and ones taking three courses?
A That's oorrect.
q Mr. Williams likes the term "locked out* with
reference to students. Do you know of any black student that's
been turned away from City High School in the last four years?
A Not to my knowledge, no, sir.
q do you know of any black student that was turned
away from Brainerd in the last four years?
A Not to my knowledge.
q You know of any black student that was turned away
from Kirkman in the —
A (Interposing) No, sir.
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O B T t R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Carr - Redirect 577
Q (Continuing) — last four years?
A No, sir.
Q In the latter part of cross examination, Mr. Williams
directed your attention to decisions made some ten years ago,
nine or ten years ago, reflecting decisions made earlier than
that with reference to curriculum at Howard.
13 there any detriment that you know of, that you
are aware of, to any student at Howard going to any other of
the four high schools in the city that the School Board controls?
A Any detriment to them going?
U Yes, sir.
A Not that I know of.
MR. WILLIAMS: Please Your Honor, I didn't get
that question. I wonder if it could be repeated.
MR. WITT: I will make an effort.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I didn't me am I had any
objection to it. If the court reporter could read it back,
Your Honor please.
back.)
(Thereupon, the court reporter read the question
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, sir.
BY MR. WITT:
Q With regard to Riverside, I ask you the same
\question.
R I C H A R D S M I T H O f T I C l A L C O U R T R E P O R T HR
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Carr - Redirect 578
“ I A
:i q
]
I do not knot# of any detriment.
Are you aware of the racial makeup of East Ridge
3
High School?
A It is my understanding that it is a segregated
<> high school.
And, by segregated, you mean it does not have one
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black student?
A To my knowledge, yes.
Q I believe you also testified that to your knowledge
some students from East Ridge attend Brainerd and pay tuition,
is this correct?
A This is correct.
Q Then, what significance would you attach to this
with reference to the students paying tuition to a city —
to a high school within the city that's seme more distance away
from their homes?
A As I stated before, there are various reasons as
to why young people choose a particular school. One, it might
be the curriculum. It may be their friends are attending this
particular high school.
In some cases, it may be that they might live
near the respective school or for the convenience or whatever
their desire may be. If there is space available and they are
accepted on tuition basis, they choose to attend this school.
R I C H A R D S M I T H O r r i C l A L C O U R T R E P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
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q And, they move from a segregated high school to a
desegregated high school of their own free will, is that correct?
A They make this choice, yes, sir,
MR, WITT: I have no further questions, Mr. Carr.
MR. WILLIAMS: Please Your Honor, just one or two
questions.
RECROSS EXAMINATIOH
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q Are there ways to turn students away other than
by physically rejecting them?
A I am not sure, you mean within Board policy7
Medical reasons?
q No, I mean are there ways to discourage students
from exercising a choice other than by physically turning
them away from a school?
A I guess you could just arbitrarily say to a
3tudent, "You can't came here."
Q Aren't there ways short of that of discouraging
students?
A Could you be a little more specific?
q DO you mean by that you can't think of any?
A I am sure there are ~ there would be ways.
Q of course you are aware that there are certain
racial prejudices existing on the part of people?
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A Certainly know —
Q (Interposing) Now suppose that the guidance
counselor who went to the junior high schools in the spring to
try to solicit children for enrollment in their particular
high school reflected the racial character of that school of
the high school concerned. Would you agree that that might
tend to have some deterrent effect on the exercise of choices?
A It could if the guidance teacher did this.
Q Well, now, the guidance — are you aware of the
race of the guidance counselor at Howard High School in past
years?
A Yes, sir, I am.
Q And, is it a black person or white?
A It's a black person.
0 All right. Are you aware of the race of the
guidance counselor at Riverside High School?
A Let me say — excuse me, there are three in each
high school, now. Some of them I do not — I am not familiar
with, since they have been recently added.
Q But, would you say that the guidance counselors
in the black schools are generally black and the guidance
counselors in the two white — three white high schools are
generally white?
A At the present time, the schools that I am familiar
Carr - Recross 580
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Recross 581Carr -
with, I know that Brainerd High School as on its staff both
black and white guidance counselors. Kirkman High School has
both black and white guidance counselors. This is as far as —
I am not sure of Howard, Riverside, and Chattanooga High.
Q Of course, you have no knowledge as to whether it
was the white or the black guidance counselors who went to the
j junior high schools, do you?
I
| A No, I am not sure, Mr. Williams.
i q Of course, that is — you have indicated that is
I one method that — that is one way in which choices might be
I
affected racially.
Are you aware of the Chattanooga school system
some years — two or three years ago of having initiated a
policy of having students pre-register in the spring shortly
after total desegregation, the same year, as a matter of fact.
attempting to require students to pre-register in the spring
for their high school assignments or forfeit their right to
go to an integrated high school?
A I believe that this is a Board policy spelling out
the orientation program for junior high school students.
q So that to — would you agree that to the extent
that a child would be limited to a very prescribed period in
the spring in making his choice, that this would have some
tendency to restrict choices?
R H t . A R L ) S M ' 7 • ' 0 * - r '« I A L v. O U R 7 R K P O H l * «
U N I T * n s t a rf- • S T R I C T f O O R T
A The reason thi3 was put into effect, I think this
was — I know it was encouraged by the five senior high school
Carr - Recross 582
principals
Q Yes.
A That there were so many students waiting till durinc
the summer or even till school opened in September to make their
decisions that they were not having sufficient time to wisely
use their staffs in developing their programs.
Q But, regardless of that, in light of that and of
the guidance counselors, possibility that I mentioned to you,
it's entirely possible that there are ways that children were j
turned away from schools on account of race without specifically
telling them, "You can't come here," isn't it — isn't that
possible?
A It is possible, yes.
Q Yes. Do you know what if any effort has been
made to investigate and determine what part that may — such
things as that may have played in the two high schools, two
black high schools remaining all black?
A No, sir, not —
Q (Interposing) All right, certainly you never made
any such efforts yourself?
A
sir.
That was — never entered my responsibility, no,
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q Did you know the statistics furnished by the Board '
of Education in Exhibit 3 reflects that Howard high School has
four black counselors and no white, that Riverside has four
black counselors and one white, that Brainerd has one black
counselor and two whites, that Chattanooga has no black
counselor and two whites, and that Kirkman has one black
counselor and two whites, and I ara referring to guidance
counselors in all those instances?
A I think that's exactly what I stated, yes, sir.
q Well — all right. Would you agree that Howard
and Riverside are definitely identifiable as black schools by
virtue of the racial complexion of their guidance counselors
while the other two or three are definitely identifiable as
white schools by virtue of their guidance counselors?
A Well, if the black guidance counselor at Brainerd
and Kirkman were to visit the schools, I don't see that they
would be identified that way, but —
q (Interposing) So, you have none at Chattanooga,
though, do you?
A As I — I think I stated — I clarified my answer
by saying that I knew at Brainerd and Kirkman. The other
three I was not sure.
g Were you aware that Howard has eight black
administrative supervisors and only one white, that Riverside
I
H K H A H O S M I T H O f M I A L O O B T R
u n T t i ) s T a T r s o ' S T R K . r c o u r t
Carr Recross 584
has four black administrative supervisors and only one white,
and that::alnerd -- Chattanooga and Kirkman each have four white
administrative supervisors and no black at all, ware you aware c
that — of those statistics as reflected in Exhibit 3 in this
case?
f
A Chattanooga High School has no black administrators?
Q Neither Brainerd, Chattanooga, nor Kirkman have. t
A Brainerd and Chattanooga High School, to my knowledge,
both have black administrators.
I
Q Well, you have any idea why they were not listed in
the statistics?
A Chattanooga High School, I know Mr. Bates is
considered assistant principal. At Brainerd High School, Mr.
Roberts is assistant principal.
Q Mr. Bates is at what?
A Chattanooga High School.
Q And he is -- is that his title, assistant principal?
A I am not —
Q (Interposing) Is he titled as assistant principal?
A Yes.
U Is he getting pay as an assistant principal?
A That's correct.
Q Wliat is his full name?
A Personnel, I just happen to know this gentleman.
1 • A • • . M i C l A . t U D R l Mi POf. *> r.
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Q And the other was?
A Mr. Roberts — Roberts.
Q Mr. Roberts? And what high school?
A Mr. Wilbur R. Roberts is listed in the directory as
assistant principal at Brainerd High School.
Q Brainerd High School?
A Yes, sir.
q All right. How long has he been assistant principal}?
A Think this is his first year at Brainerd High School.
Q And, this is Mr. Bates' first year at Chattanooga
High School?
A No. This is Mr. Bates' — I know this is his
second year, but I am not —
q (Interposing) All right, sir. Now, one other
thing that I want to ask you about. You said that business
education was the same at Kirkraan as at Howard and Riverside.
Hadn't you testified earlier that business education at Kirkman
meant training for secretarial positions while office occupa
tions at Howard and Riverside meant training for Btenographical
or clerical?
A Mr. Williams, just getting into educational
semantics here. From the standpoint of vocational reimburse-
■ m
ment programs, they define the training in business education
as office education programs.
Carr - Recross >̂8i>
n i f H A R O S M I T H O l F l i A l ■. O J R T H e R O R T M
U N ' T i || b U l i S I D S I R M f < O w » ' T
Carr Recross
Q Well, without — let’s forget the name.
A All right.
Q Call them all office education.
A All right.
0 If a student goes to Kirkman High School, what
is he trained for? What can he be trained for?
A As a secretary or as a clerical position.
Q All right. If a student goes to Howard and River
side, what is he trained for?
A From the vocational aspect — and again, here is
where I would like to make this clarification. There are two
programs reimbursed under the State in business education.
One is called clerical program, the other is secretarial.
Little bit of difference in the training.
Q Quite a bit of difference?
A Shorthand, as I mentioned, is difference, so in
this respect the program at Riverside in the reimbursed office
occupation program is a clerical training program.
q All right. And, the same at Howard?
A Now, excuse me just a minute. In addition to the
reimbursed vocational office occupations, Riverside does offer
other business courses which are categorized in the general
education framework — typing, shorthand.
Q But, and at Howard?
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A This is the same.
Q Same thing? So that the reimbursed program at
Riverside — Kirkman is different than that at Riverside and
Howard, isn't it, because it offers reimbursed secretarial
training and they — as well as clerical training, and they
offer only clerical training, that is correct, isn't it,
reimbursed bv the State?
A Yes, this is correct.
0 So that, then have to add, this Exhibit 45, the
58 so-called business education to the other 52 children who
are taking courses that are not offered at Howard and River
side making a total of one hundred — making a total of 110 and
leaving only 19 of that 129 who are taking courses that are
duplicated at Howard and Riverside, isn't that true?
Carr - Recross 587
17
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A I do not know, of course, I don't have that exhibit,
and - -
(Interposing) All right. sir.
A I am —
Q (Interposing) All right. sir. Well, let's just
put it this way: You read out the following who were taking
courses that are duplicated at Howard and Riverside: Three
in auto mechanics, three in distributive education, two in
drafting -- for a total of eight thus far — three in electricity,
total of eleven; and eight in woodworking, total of nineteen,
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Carr Recross 588
isn't that true?
A I think, that's what I read out, yes, sir.
MR. WILLIAMS: That's all.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT:
Q Just one question, Mr. Carr, you testified that
Mr. Bates is an assistant principal at City High School as of
now?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know what his position was at the school
last year?
A My memory serves me correctly, he was in guidance
last year.
MR. WITT: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Anything further of this witness?
MR. WITT: This is all.
THE COURT: All right. Let's take a 10-minute
recess.
(Witness excused.)
(Thereupon, a recess was taken.)
MR. WITT: Like Mr. Tom Mark Black to come to the
witness stand.
TOM MARK BLACK,
called as a witness at the instance of the defendant, being
alack - Direct 589
first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITT:
0 Mr. Black, will you state your full name, please?
A Tom Mark Black.
Q What is your present employment?
A I are employed with the Chattanooga public school
system in the area of — I am a specialist in the area of
guidance service coordination.
Q In discharging this responsibility, do you have
people, others that work under your supervision?
A Yes, sir, I have 32 guidance counselors, full-time
guidance counselors, that do work under my supervision.
■j how, these guidance counselors, have they received
any special training?
A Yes, sir. Those who are State certified to meet
the State certification standards have been teachers in the
classroom for three years. All of there who are certified and <
to have completed 27 hours of training in the field of
guidance mid counseling. I think this --
rj (Interposing) Is this the 27 hours at a graduate
level?
A It can be either at the graduate or undergraduate
level; Lut it must be within the area of the specialty which
R I C H A R D S M I T H O I - F I C I A L C O U R T R C P O R T E H
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Black - Direct 590
is guidance.
U I see.
A I will say this, though, that most all of our
counselors have masters degrees or above as far as training
is concerned.
Q All right. I am addressing my questions to the
junior high area of guidance counseling.
How many junior high counselors do you have?
A At the present time, we have — let's see, we
have 15 in the high schools, so leave about 7 — about 15 at --
no, 14 at the junior high level, 2 at the middle school, and
2 in the elementary schools.
0 All right. Is this the guidance counselor --
guidance counselor at each junior high school?
A Yes, sir. We, with the exception of one counselor
that's shared between two different schools because of the
small enrollment.
U Which two schools are these?
A That's Elbert Long Junior High and Lookout Junior
High.
Q Retrace my steps a moment. Hr. Black. Would you
give your educational background, please, sir?
A I have a -- well, my bachelor’s degree was in
tiie area of education with a major in social studies and a
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minor in guidance. At the master's level was in education vitl
the primary development in the specific area of guxdance. And,
I have 54 hours above the master's degree in four different
colleges, primarily most of the hours are from the University
of Tennessee in the education, psych, and guidance department.
And, at the University of Georgia, education, psydj,
and guidance department and Middle Tennessee State.
Q Did you mention where you received your under
graduate training?
A University of — well, it was the University of
Chattanooga, then. It's UTC, now.
U And, your master's is from the University of
Tennessee?
A No, my master's i3 from the University of Chatta
nooga. All of my specialist work above the master's degree
have been at the University of Tennessee and the other
colleges I mentioned.
0 Well, when did you first become employed in the
Chattanooga school system?
A In the fall of 1958.
V What was your first assignment?
A First assignment was teaching in the area of
social studies and science and language arts and at Brainerd
Junior High School.
Black - Direct 532.
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alack - Direct 592
U How long did you stay at Brainerd Junior High
School?
A Well, I was teaching for approximately five years i
and counseling three years of those five. I was doing half-
i
jj time teaching and half-time counseling with one period of
II . 1social work for five years.
8 ' j
And then, the last three years or four years I
j
spent there was strictly in full-time guidance work.
si When did — when were you assigned to your present
position?
I
A I was assigned to the Central Office in 1957-50
j school year — pardon me, 1967-68 school year.
| 0 Then, you have been in your present position for
four years, approximately?
A Yes, this will be the end of the fourth year.
U Mr. Black, would you describe for the Court and
for the record the function of guidance in the ninth grade
with referenco to the high schools that are available for
those students in the Chattanooga system?
A You mean the role of the counselor at the
secondary level or specifically the educational part of
counseling?
Q Well, let's take the educational part of counseling.
All right. Educationally, the ninth -- well, the
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Black - Direct 593
counselors working at the junior high level, grades seven
through nine, in the area of education, usually are responsible
for trying to help the student to make choices concerning his
educational future.
These decisions, of course, always at this level
involve the parents and the counselor tries to work with the
parents and the students in helping to make educational
I
decisions about his future. This might be in terms of choosing
subjects to take, whether the next level that he progresses
to or — and particularly at this time he's going into high
school and so you have to give him the general knowledge that'll
; i
needed so he can meet the minimum state requirements which is
16 credits. And, you might have to explain things like majors
and minors which high schools and colleges require for
graduation.
q All right, how do you — how do you work with t
various high schools in carrying out this role?
A Well, we meet — counselors meet at least once
a month and at these meetings, we have the high school counselors
and the junior high counselors working together in discussing
this transition that the students will be making from the
junior high level to the senior high level.
And, we ask at that time that each high school
counselor present his program to the entire counselors group
O K I . A P I ) S M I T H O l F I A l i O l^ R I f l P ’ O H H »
U N I T I O s t a t l s utsrftic r C O U R T
a lack - Direct 594
for that particular year, because changes do occur from year
to year in curriculum depending upon whatever the principal
and his curriculum staff in the school have decided upon.
And, once that has been determined, then the
counselor brings this information to the meeting and presents
it to all of the counselors; but particularly to all of the
:junior high counselors who will be having — who will be helpinjgIi
students to make choices in terms of their high school course
of study for the next year. And, I think this interchange
probably takes place at least — takes place at least three
i
times prior to the counselors actually making contact with
'
large groups of students.
However, in this process of orientation, orientation
begins the first day of school as far as we are concerned. In
the area of decision-making about course work, some students
are ready just as soon as they enter the first part of the
eighth grade. Some of them have already been talking with
their parents and deciding what they want to take, this sort
of thing. So, a counselor can really start working with them
as early as beginning of the eighth year in school.
Q Is there a specific program or schedule to discharge
this particular responsibility in the ninth grade?
A We have an orientation policy that was adopted by
the Hoard of Education some four or five years ago. And, in
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this policy, it generally — it states that the counselor will
provide information for the student and his parents concerning
the educational offerings of the high schools in the Chatta
nooga public school system.
And, also, that he will meet individually or in
groups with the parents and the students and at such time will
go over these curriculum offerings and — and it will be up to
them, then, to determine which high school that they will choone
to go to.
Q In the usual situation, does this involve individual
conferences with the — between the guidance counselor and the
|istudent?
A It varies from school to school. I would say that
every student who goes to the ninth grade will have had the
opportunity to discuss his program, his ninth-grade program,
with a counselor or he and his parents with a counselor prior
to his entering the ninth grade; and this could have been at
any time during the eighth grade.
(j In other words, this counseling process begins
substantial degree in the eighth grade?
A yes, sir. Usually the transition from elementary
to junior high school, we find that the first year student
trying to get adjusted to the new junior high and he has his
hands pretty well full then and anyway at the seventh-grade
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Black - Direct
level, curriculum is already pretty much set and pretty well
determined because it involves mostly the basic skill develop-|
ment. I
But, when you start going into the high school
planning, y au get into the content areas and more away from tn<*
basic skill development area, and as result of this, we usuallyi
do not start planning high school with them until sasMtime
!
during the eighth grade. Could be at the beginning of the yea^,
any time during the year. No specific dates have been set.
Q In these decisions, are you saying that there's a {
wider variety available to the student at the ninth-grade level?
i
A Yes, there are more elective subjects at the
ninth-grade level.
o Does this affect the nature of the decisions thatw i
are to be made?
A Well, particularly for — in cases where parents
have certain plans for their students, for their children,
in terms of college, for one thing, they feel that there are
I
certain courses that, you know, you need to get, beginning
with your first year in high school in order to meet the
college entrance requirements, basic, primarily, in the areas
of math and science and languages.
This seems to be what all the colleges are asking
for in terms of meeting entrance requirements. So, students
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who arc — who already know and have it pretty well outlined
for them that, you know, they are going to college, you start -
you start planning with the student and his parents , then,
tiie kind of courses he will need to nake this entrance much
easier for him.
And, of course, this is planned from the ninth
grade, which is the first year of high school, really. It's
the first year he enters with units, I believe, and continues
on through his twelfth year.
q Is this — the importance that's attached to a
college education, here, is this the usual situation?
A How — I don't follow you.
q Well, you have referred to the children W>o
apparently have made the decision that they are going to
college. What percentage of the total number of students
would this, roughly, would this include? Is it a small group,
large group, or what?
A Well, I guess if you used their followup report,
something like 42, 45 percent of the students in Chattanooga
public schools do go to college.
q Do you have any opinion as to how many of these
have their minds made up in the eighth or ninth grade, from
• 0
your experience?
A Well, from my experience, I have found that
Black - Dtract 597
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Black - Direct 598
parents talked with you and particularly in the Brainerd area,
they were ready to talk with you about college in the eighth
grade, and this comprised a sizable majority of the parents
of students in the graduating classes.
0 Mall, what is the role of the guidance counselor
i
in this kind of a situation where the decision has already beei^
!
made to go to college? !
A Well, the role of the guidance counselor, if this
(decision has been made, is really to provide the student with
the necessary kind of information that he will need to help !
|him prepare for college. And, of course, I say, now, if we
are talking, now, about the ninth grade, you are really helping
]him to prepare for courses in high school that will benefit
him in making application and gaining entrance to college
later on.
Q Would you consider it your responsibility, if
a student indicated that college was not the proper place for
him to be, would you attempt to talk them out of it? j
A If a student indicated that to me, at the time,
maybe he and his parents are in disagreement. They feel he
should go and he says that he doesn't want to go.
Of course, ultimately, this is a decision that
will have to be reached, really, outside of the school,
because the whole thing hinges on, you know, not just the
Black - Direct 599
course work he will take but on the financial considerations
later on.
So, I leave this decision really up to the student
and the parents. What I might do is to, if the student has
some doubts that he isn't capable of going, I night review
his records, his cumulative folder, his grades, his test scores,
any kind of data that's been collected that might give him a
more positive feeling that he could make it.
I
q Is it the role of the guidance counselor to
persuade?
A No. This, you get back to the philosophy of
guidance and counseling and this is changing just like every
thing else is. So, I would say right now it's in a flux as to
philosophy.
!
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When I received my training, the idea was you do
not make decisions for students or their parents. You did
counsel with them. You did present them information. You did
help them think through alternatives or conflicts and things
of this nature; but ultimately, the decision had to be made
by the student and his parents.
And, we accepted this — this philosophy as
workable, and it must have worked for some time. However,
now, in the last few years, there's been a more militant
feeling that the counselor is an activist or should be an
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Black. - Direct
activist, let's put it that way, and that he should be able
to help the student beat the system.
0 Beat the system?
A Beat the system. This is the way it's been
«
stated pretty well.
t I
q What does this mean, as you understand it? I
i
A I suppose that a counselor, being an adult and
. |
having had some experience and training, should be a person|j I
l| that could help a student to accomplish possibly what would
i
have been impossible goals earlier for him whether it's getting
into the kind of college he wants or getting into the high
school he wants or — or in any way helping to provide alterna
tives for students other than just having him go right along
with the regular trend of things at the time. I
q Well, is your personal philosophy that of an
activist or an otherwise?
A Well, as I said, I was schooled in the philosophy
that where I said we do not make decisions. If you want to
play God, make it rain first.
So, you let — you let the student and parents
make the decision. This seemed to make sense to me, but —
found that many parents and students along the way can't seem
I to make a decision. And, many times, if the situation calls
for it, you might give advice.
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q All right. With regard to the opportunities
available on the high school level, is it a responsibility
of your guidance department to acquaint itself with the
curriculum and the extracurricular activities and the total
program at the various high schools?
A Yes, sir.
q Is certain material prepared for this purpose?
MR. WILLIAMS: May it please the Court, we have
been going along, now, for about 25 minutes. All of this
testimony seems to be irrelevant to any issue here, and I
object.
THE COURT: What do you say is the relovance?
MR. WITT: Relevancy of this is supporting the
initial and the primary concept that the five high schools are
different, they are designed and maintained to meet the needs
and desires and aspirations of the constituency that they aerv<»;
that the guidance counselors, as a part of an affirmative
obligation of the School Board, attempt to point out to the
parents that there are these choices to be made and assist
them in making these choices, and that none of these considera
tions have any bearing upon race.
MR. WILLIAMS: If Your Honor please, I can't see
what — anything this man has testified thus far has to do
with anything that Mr. Witt has stated, how it supports, and
H t „•» I ’ U H | f •*
Black - Direct 602
1 object.
MR. WITT: I was —
THE COURT: (Interposing) Proceed.
BY MR. WITT:
i1i
q In your department's performance of its duties,
have you any directive from the Superintendent with regard to
urging students of one race to go to another school or vice
versa?
A No, sir. I
q Does the race of the student or the racial composi*-
I
tion of the student bodies of the high schools have any bearing
upon the performance of the guidance function and the guidance
performed by the guidance counselors?
A No, sir.
0 Do you, to your knowledge, do you attaapt to
encourage black students to go to a formerly all-white school?
A No, I haven't.
q To your knowledge, has anyone else discouraged
a black student from going to a formerly all-white school?
A No, not to my knowledge.
o is there any policy in this area that you are
aware of?
A
Q
No, sir.
Does anyone within your knowledge in your department
Black - Direct 6 0 3
make an effort to discourage whites from going to formerly
all-black schools? :
A No, sir.
Q Do you have black guidance counselors and white
guidance counselors?
IA Yes, sir.
Q Do you have any guidance counselors that are in
a school that is predominantly of the opposite race, junior
ihigh schools? j
|
A Are you talking about, say, like cross-over i
jcounselors?
j
Q Yes. You might explain for the record what you
mean by cross-over.
A Well, it would be a counselor or an educator who,
predominantly in a school situation that has a racial complexion
other than his own. j
0 Do you have any cross-over teachers, guidance
counselors?
A We do not have any white counselors in — alone
in any all-black school or vice versa. We do have black and
white counselors operating in two of the junior high schools
i
that you mentioned.
Q What two schools?
A Alton Park and Hardy. Have excuse 9 Hast Sidle
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and Hardy, have; black and white counselors.
Q Last Side and Hardy?
A Yes, sir.
q Have guidance counselors of each race?
a Right.
q Do you know the racial composition of the student
body, now, approximately, of Last Side?
A No, sir, I don't.
q Well, does it have a substantial number of blacks
in the student body?
A Yes, sir.
q Do you know approximately the racial composition
of Hardy?
A Well, it's predominantly black. I don't know
what the exact racial composition is, but it would be in
favor of black students.
q Are you generally familiar with the Hardy School
over the period of the last two or three years?
A Generally, yes.
g It's already in the record and exhibit by an
earlier witness that the racial composition at Hardy as of
now is 426 blacks and 190 whites?
A (Witness moves head up and down.)
q Previous year was 384 blacks and 268 whites. Now,
Black - Direct 604
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then, these are the only two schools that have — that studentn
have — where students have available to them a guidance
i
counselor of either race?
A Well, there are two of the three schools at the
junior high level that have two guidance counselors. All of j
the others only have one except the two mentioned, two schools.
I
I mentioned before that are served by one counselor.
Q Is this because of the size of the school?
I
A As far as placing a second counselor at Hardy
I
and Eastside and at Alton Park, I would say it has to do with i
!
counselor-student ratio for one thing. They do have a
substantial number of students. Also, they, according to the
attendance records, they have problems in this area where
some other help, I think, can help you to improve attendance,
a counselor would work in this area as another reason for
having them there.
And, I think in general, as far as having black
and white, most of the researchers show that this is really
the way it should be today, to have a black and a white
counselor in each school.
q Do they counsel together or do they work separately?
A They work out of the same office complex and
together.
Q Is there some prescribed ratio between the number
black - Direct 6 0 b
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of students that are guidance counselors at the junior high
level can adequately serve?
A Well, all I can give you are statistics on that.
The American Personnel Guidance Association, which is the
national professional association, recommends the ratio of
one counselor to two hundred fifty students. Our State
Department recommends a ratio of one counselor to five hundred
students with the idea that as more funds beccme available
we will work toward the APGA figure of one to two-fifty.
Q Do you know what that ratio is in the city
school system?
A If you look at the system as a whole, in terms of
full-time counseling positions and students at the secondary
level, we find the ratio is below one to five hundred. I don |
know the exact figure. I think it's something like one to
four-sixty, or something like that, right now.
q What about the junior high level?
A At the junior high level, the picture isn’t as j
good. The ratio there is over one to five hundred and that’s f
ratlier I said that’s one of the reasons why we moved in more
counselors at the junior high level.
q You stated that conferences with parents are
advisable. Do you have any idea how frequently these
individual conferences between the counselor and the student
111' >1A » U S M I ' H O * r • Ai. c O U » T » > P O U ’ t h
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Black - Direct
and the parents are had with regard to the choice of high
schools?
A As I stated before, in the counselor's role, we
1
have counseling and consultation and coordination of activities
all on behalf of the individual student. In the latest reportj
t
I have, I find that counselors spend approximately 60 percent j
of his time counseling, and I am assuming that he is counseling
|
with students and staff at the school and with parents, tie
spends about 30 percent of his time consulting, about 10 percent
of his time testing, and other school and community-related
projects. This is the way it's worked out the last couple of
years.
q How do the parents become aware of the fact that
the guidance counselor is available to assist them on the
decision with regard to the high schools that their children
may attend?
A well, many ways. Mostly, I think probably through
the schools' efforts. Many of them send out letters. Of
course, they introduce themselves to the children and try to ;
explain their role to the faculty and staff and the children
in the school and exactly what they are there for.
And, of course, by word of mouth, by PTA meetings,
there's some publicity in the newspapers occasionally; and
I and several others have been on the various programs two or
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three times trying to explain the guidance and counseling
function to the community.
3 Well, is there any way that we can knew how
effective this program is with regard to the conferences witn
the parents about going to high schools, any way we can get
that information?
^ I really — ' when you say effective, now, how do
you mean?
q well, could you say that 50 percent of the parents
have conferences with the guidance counselor and the pupil
before they make a decision on what high Bchool they go to?
A I would say probably 50 percent do. I don’t have
any exact figures on it. It would seen reasonable in that
about 90 percent of their time is spent in consultation and
counseling. So, I would assume 50 percent of the people could
be Been or more.
q Mr. black, I hand you a document that's entitled
1970-71 committee report on follow-up of high school graduates.
Appears to be appendix to the May 1970 meeting of Chattanooga
board of Education.
WoiiJLd you make this the next exhibit, which I
believe is 46.
TICE COURT: Exhibit 46.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No. 46
for identification. Witness Mr.
sBlaok^^aad, received in evidence.)
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
♦
Black - Direct
BY HR. WITT
609
q Are you familiar with this committee report?
A Yes, sir.
q How was it prepared?
A Pardon?
Q How was it prepared?
A This was prepared by the high school counselors
in each of the five high schools, gathering data about the
graduates of the 1970 graduating class in terras of idiat's
happened to them approximately one year later.
Q Then, the guidance counselors in the five high
schools prepared this report?
A Yes, sir.
Q They do this under your supervision?
A Yes, sir, they prepared a report from their
individual schools and I tried to pull it together when they
send it into the Central Office for this report.
0 Do you know the technique by which they gathered
this information?
A Yes, sir. They do this by presenting each potential
high school graduate a questionnaire early in the senior year.
And, on this questionnaire, they are asked the question
questions relating to each of these categories here in terms
of their plana for the future.
Black - Direct 610
And, they leave their address and telephone number
with, of course, with the counselor. And then approximately
at the beginning of the next school year, they start checking
up to see if they are living up to those commitments or plans
that they made on the original questionnaire. And, this is
the result — tally of what they have been able to find out
by asking other students, by telephone, and by using that
questionnaire.
Unfortunately, we do not have sufficient staff or
money to do a real in-depth study, so this is very general
information.
Q Turn to page two, if you will. How many students
does this indicate graduated from Brainerd last year?
A Three hundred sixty-five.
Q And how many of these attended college?
A Two hundred eighty-eight.
Q What does that indicate percentage-wise?
A Seventy-eight point nine tenths percent.
Q All right. What about Chattanooga High School?
A Total graduated was 421; attending college, 292,
for a total of 69.4 percent.
Q And Howard High School, how many graduates?
A Four hundred four graduates; seventy-six attending
college, 18.8 percent.
H C M AWL) i M U M , A L U i . H T Wt P O W r W
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Black - Direct
Q How many graduated from Kirkman?
A Two hundred twenty-five; eight attending college,
3.6 percent.
Q Now, give us the figure for Riverside.
A Two hundred ninety-four graduated; eighty-six
attending college, for a total of 29.3 percent.
£ All right. Now, direct your attention to line
number seven, which is gainfully employed. What percentage
of those in Brainerd were gainfully employed?
A Seven point one percent.
Q What was that percentage figure for Chattanooga
High School?
A Fifteen point four percent.
Q Howard High School?
A Ten point nine percent.
Q On the number of gainfully employed from Kirkman
out of 225?
A Sixty-one point three tenths percent.
Q And, what was the statistic with regard to River
side?
A One point nine tenth percent.
MR. WITT: No further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
(>11
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
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black. - Cross
Q Mr. Black, have you or any of your counselors
developed a guidance program specifically to deal with problem!
associated with integration?
A No, sir, but not that I know of.
Q What specific activities within the guidance
program, that is, any specific program mentioned, focus on
problems of integration?
A In what way, sir?
Q Well, are there any activities within the guidance
program which you are operating in the City of Nashville —
I mean, of Chattanooga, which have at any time focused on any
integration problems?
A You mean with the students?
Q Yes.
A In s o m sort of —
Q (Interposing) In any way.
A Not to my knowledge.
Q All right, sir. As a man with sane background in
psychology, I notice you are an ed-psych man. Can you think
of ways in which students can be locked out of s o m local
institution like a school other than by physically barring
them or openly discouraging them?
012
A Yes, sir.
0 Mention sonie of those, if you would.
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A If you mean — now just to gain entrance? Thi»
could be done any number of ways from zones — curriculum.
U Curriculum is a very substantial one, isn't it?
If you program the curriculum of a school a certain way, then
it cam discourage or encourage children to elect to go to that
school, can't it?
Black - Cross to13
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A It could.
Q And, in the Chattanooga schools, the programming
of the black high schools has been such as to tend towards
attraction of large numbers of vocational — vocational educa
tion program students?
A I don't know if it was for that specific intent
that we are talking about.
Q Well, that has been the effect?
A Yes, sir, I guess that's the effect; but I don't
know whether it was with that intent.
Q Do the guidance —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) Your Honor, excuse
me just a moment.
B Y MR . WILLIAMS:
q Do the guidance professionals on your staff believis
in the advantages of integrated, that is, as opposed to
segregated, education for both black and white students?
A Yes, sir.
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q Ars your guidance counselors particularly sansitiv®
to the needs of students in an integrated situation?
A I think so; yes, sir.
q Well, have they been — have they received any
specific in-service training in regard to that?
A The in-service training that they do receive I
tiiink has been in terms of that training which they have gotter
from attending conferences and workshops and this sort of thin<g
which occurred quite frequently here in the city and in the
state.
q Integration workshops?
^ well, many of the programs that are presented as
in-service or workshops or something of this nature deal with
the theme and need for more and better integration of our
schools.
Well, are you familiar with sensitivity training?
Yes.
Sensitivity training, what is that?
Well, sensitivity training, according to Dr.
Rogers, is an attempt to break down defenses and barriers that
inhibit a person's growth. When I say growth, I am talking,
now, mentally, intellectually, and psychologically.
q Has this or not been widely used in attempting to
orient teachers, counselors, and other personnel towards
Q
«\
Q
A
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problems associated with integration?
A In terms of integration, as far as my experience
is concerned — it's somewhat limited, since this is just my
fourth year — has been as far as workshops for teachers and
counselors, we have meetings, community meetings, and this sort,
of thing? but I would not describe what happens in these
meetings as sensitivity training,
q None of your guidance counselors have had —
A (Interposing) Some of them have.
q (Continuing) — the sensitivity training?
A I would suppose individually on their own. I have,
q Do you know how many of them have?
A Not right off.
q Has that been made a requirement?
A No, sir.
q Uow many guidance counselors or wait a minute,
maybe you gave us that. Have you then 33 guidance counselors
in the whole system, 15 high schools, 14 in junior high school^,
2 in the middle schools, and 2 in the elementary schools?
A Actually, there are 32. There must have been a
mistake there somewhere.
Q All right, sir.
A As far as my records are concerned, 2 in elementary,
2 at the middle school, 15 —
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Q (Interposing) High school?
A At the high school.
Q That would make 19?
A Right.
Q Then, you said 14, I thought, in the junior high
school. Would that be 33?
A
it’s 32.
Right, then 13 — I made a mistake if I told you
Q All right, sir. How, you say you have no regular
program of in-service or special training to sensitise your
guidance counselors to problems of integration, is that
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correct?
A If you are speaking in terms of sensitivity
training, using these techniques, no, sir.
q All ri^ht, sir. Do you have any specific evidence
of students choosing a particular school because it has an
especially unique program?
A White or black student?
q Either white or black.
A I think that the students making their choices of
high school are making them based on the information that
they receive, and in terms of what they think they and their
parents are planning for their future; so, if this took them
across or out of the community school concept, we do have a
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number of students who have done this. I
q What do you call a community school concept, what
A (Interposing) Well, a school — a school located
in a specific community that serves primarily people from that
area. j
Q All right. Then, you say that actually — actually
j
students tend to choose the school that's in their particular
community for the most part, is that right?
A It seems that way; yes, sir. j
!
g And so there is very little evidence of any choosing
of any particular school, that is apart from Kirkman. which is
i
a special school by itself. There is very little evidence of
students or shopping around for high schools based on their
curriculum?
A Well, j know as a counselor at Brainerd Junior
Iligh and helping them each — the graduating class fill out
enrollment cards, when I would announce that at the time after
we had presented all the information we had about all the
offerings in all the schools, you know, it's up to you, now,
which school are you choosing. It's up to you and your parentjs
and your parents have to sign the card that they agree that
this is it.
I know that the time that I was thara thara were
studants who did laave the Brainerd community and go to other
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schools.
Q All right. Did they give reasons for that? Did
you have someplace on there for thee to give a reason for
that?
A No, sir, we didn't.
Q
regard?
There's been no collection of data with that
A No, sir.
Q In regard to that? So that you wouldn't know why
they didn't go?
A Only if —
Q (Interposing) Why they didn't stay in Bra1nerd.
in the community of Urainerd?
A If, incidentally, some of then told me, this would
be my only knowledge of why they were going. There were many
reasons that were given, but I didn't ask them collectively,
you know, "Why are you going here?"
q All right. You have no systematically collected
data in that area?
A No, sir, not in that respect.
Q All right, sir. Do blade counselors primarily
counsel black pupils and white counselors white students?
A I think it works out that way, although I know
in the past we have had a couple of black counselors who had
» K H * h O i M © M IC A L C C i J # 1
UNiTfO STATf.6 l STRU.r O U » T
lilack - C:
very, very good rapport established with white stwdeats, sad Z
couldn't tell eueh difference in visiting the school; I would
see both blacks and whites in the office and talking with the
counselor.
Me indicated he counseled about as neny blacks as
he did whites. But, overall, I would say the way things are
that the black counselors will counsel nore black students
than white and vice versa.
q All right. And, this is a form of segregation
which continues within the school systen, is it not?
A It's voluntary segregation.
g You haven't attesyted to do anything about it?
A You naan to encourage black counselors to
white students and so forth? This sort of thing?
Q Assigned counselors?
A He do not aseign, no. He do not easign students t ►
he counseled by any counselor. He figure that the one they
have the best relationship established with, this is the
*19
i
g (Interposing) W»e students sinpiy onus in for
counseling end select s counselor they want?
A This is pretty much the way it is, yea.
q so, than, really, actually the way you haws
utilised the bl-racial asaignnent of counselors to schools as
• M l4>i \ x - H T
■ •» jfHi' r . OL'h*
Black - Cross t»20
a means of furthering continued segregation, have you not?
A Ho, sir, I do not assign then to continue any kind;
of segregation.
q Nell, but what I naan is you have assigned black
and white counselors to integrated schools and then the — thin
gave black children an opportunity to seek the black counselors
and white children an opportunity to seek the white counselors?
I
A Yes, I did this, because — for a pretty good
i
reason.! !
q Well, what — was that the reason?
iI a No, sir.
q What was the reason?
A Research has shown that black students feel more
comfortable if they see black and white in an office rather
than just one or the other in an integrated situation. i
q All right. Is it your — is it your intellectual
and conceptual view that integration will be accomplished by
making people feel more comfortable? j a Ho, sir, it is not ray own personal view.
q All right, sir. Now, then, I notice from the
statistical report which the school system has submitted to
IIEW for the current year that Alton Park has four black
guidance counselors and no whites. Is that correct?
A I as sorry, I didn't hear that.
K K H 4 » n ' , M *H O f p 1C Ai . I - O u w r HI P O R T f * »
U N l T C O S T A T r S R K T , . O U R T
( Black - Cross 621
ji
t ilt
•jl
q An examination of the report which was filed with
HEW by the Chattanooga school system for the current school
year shows the following figures with regard to guidance
counselors in junior high schools. This figure — this may beJ
'
subject to error, because the term — it may include some
persons other than guidance counselors or administrative staff^
I
but for Alton Park, four blacks and no whites; for Brainerd, i
no blacks and two whites; for Dalewood, no blacks and two
whites.
I
For Ea3t Fifth, two blacks and no whites; for
East Lake, one black and one white; for East Side, no blacks
and three whites.
For Hardy, two blacks and one white; for Lookout
and Long, as you have said, one shared between them, and that
was a white. For North Chattanooga, one black and two whites. I
For Orchard Knob, two blacks and no whites. And for Howard —
and it looks like eight blacks and no whites.
Now, then, when you compare the racial figures
of those schools which I shall now read for Alton Park, the
pupil population, Alton Park, 835 blacks and 7 whites;
Brainerd, 69 blacks and 519 whites; Dalewood, 105 blacks and l
470 whites.
East Fifth, 389 whites and — blacks and 9 whites;
East Lake, 1 black and 528 whites; East Side, 130 blacks and
r »c * - a h o s y i H n t t - i c a l c O v « r r<» ' O R ' < r>
> J N I T ! r> S T A T E S D 5 T R I O u r -
Black - Cross 622
593 whites.
Hardy, 426 blacks and 190 whites; Long, 28 blacks ;
ii
and 165 whites; Lookout, 89 blacks and 148 whites.
North Chattanooga, 62 blacks and 723 whites;
Orchard Knob, 653 blacks and no whites; Howard, 573 blacks and
lno whites.
It's fairly clear that your guidance counselors
Ihave been and are still being assigned on a racial basis,
I
isn’t it?
A I don't follow your figures, to begin with.
|
q Would you like to look at these?
A Yes, sir, I would.
Q All right, sir. I don't have a copy to furnish
counsel. These were just made —- look at that, if you will,
j
and tell the Court whether or not you can perceive a racial
pattern in the assignment of children to the schools -- I
mean of guidance counselors to the schools which correlates
with racial segregation in pupil assignments.
A I can only speak for those counselors over which
i
I am supposed to have some supervision.
q Don’t you —
A (Interposing) And I don't supervise this many
counselors. You’ve got four counselors at Alton Park. I only;
have two.
i
ij q All right, sir. Would you then — do you know the J
j
jj number of counselors by heart that you have at each one of
Black - Cross (
il
tI
I;
(;I!I1
1 1 || 'I I
those schools?
A I think so, yes, sir.
q Could you take a pen or pencil and just pencil in
the number of counselors, because that report includes — may j
include some other personnel other than counselors.
MR. WITT: It would be helpful if you would tell 1I!
me where you are — HEW report, October 15, 1970?
I
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.
MR. WITT: Alton Park Junior High School?
MR. WILLIAMS: What page are we on? We begin —
there's a page for each school, I believe begin with Alton
Park, and we took this from the other full-time professional
instructional staff which includes guidance counselors.
MR. WITT: But includes more than guidance
counselors.
MR. WILLIAMS: But he is now narrowing it down.
THE WITNESS: You wanted the racial context, too?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. Incidentally, if Your
Honor please, I ’d like to ask counsel if he has an extra copy
of that. I'd like to introduce it in evidence, if I might,
at this time. It's filed, if Your Honor please. At this time,
I should like to request this be introduced in evidence, this
R l C M A H O O f P i A _ O U R T >•‘ ‘ ' O R I E R
UNI*CD fcT» rts . SIR'< r • OUfit
Black - Cross 644
report which was filed by Mr. Witt last year. You have a copy?
Here's a copy, if Your Honor please. I'd like to
}
introduce this copy of that.
THE COURT: What does this purport to be?
MR. WILLIAMS: This is an official report furnished
by the Chattanooga school system to the United States Department
of Health, Education, and Welfare dated October IS, 1970, which
I
contains statistics regarding the current school year.
THE COURT: Exhibit No. 47.
j
(Thereupon, the document referred j
to above was marked Exhibit No. 47
for identification. Witness Mr.
Black, and received in evidence.) <
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q All right, sir. Now, have you completed your
operation, Mister —
A (Interposing) I think so, but I have changed it
a little here on this side. You said to do this racially.
I have done it just numbers on the other side.
J
MR. WITT: Mr. Williams, for the record, these are*
the materials that were filed with the Court on November the
9th, 1970.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. Well, now, they were
|filed with the Court, but I am not sure that's in evidence.
I simply wanted to make sure it's in evidence.
I 1
" j)
’ Q
; .1 ll
I ■ • il
I '<
' l l
MR. MITT: Wanted to identify thee.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
q Now, then, the figures that you have put in in
blue ink represent the number of guldenoe counselors on this
document which —
MR. WILLIAMS: (Interposing) Was this what we
introduced as Exhibit 46, Your Honor please, or maybe we have
not introduced this.
THE COURT: No. Exhibit 46 was the followup on
graduating students.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
q All right, sir. Mr. Black, will you — I'd like to
ask that this be introduced as Exhibit — as the next exhibit.
tie: COURT: Exhibit No. 48. This exhibit identifies
!
the counselors at each school by race.
(Thereupon, the document referred
to above was marked Exhibit No.
48 for identification, Witness
Mr. Black, and received in evidence.)
Black - Cross C25
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q At each junior high school by race and they are
on there in ink, placed on that by Mr. Black?
A What I was saying, these are the only ones that
I know that are under my supervision. If there are others
there, I am not aware of it.
0 Aren't you the — don't you have the supervision
Wtt *.M 1 H 0 > H O U S T » O w ' i ;
o N t * ; b u n , nsTRir r o o n t
Black - Cross 626
of all guidance counselors in the Chattanooga school system?
A Only at the regular school program. If there are
i
federal counselors financed by federal means# something like
this# no.
q All right. All right, sir. Now, then, with
reference to Exhibit 46, lie re, directing your attention to
II
page two of 46 which gives the statistics of the graduates of
the high school graduates for 1970 who attended college, do
|
you have that before you, Mr. Black?
A Page two?
Q Yes.
A Yes, sir.
q I know that 288 graduates of Brainerd or 78.7
percent of its graduating class, 292 graduates of Chattanooga
City or 69.4 percent of its graduating class, went to college,
wnereas only 76 or 18.8 percent of Howard’s graduating class
and only 86 or 29.3 percent of Riverside's graduating class
went to college.
Would you say that that discloses icse correlation
between race and socioeconomic population of the high school
of the latter two high schools and the likelihood of their
graduates going to college?
jA Ye3 , sir. jI
q Are you familiar with the Civil Rights Commission *4
n ; r o
l *■ < • A ' . C O U R T R t P O R T t H
A t r . . - j r R l O T C O U R T
Black - Cross 027
report on racial isolation in the public schools in 19a7?
A I haven't read it, no, sir.
Q Are you familiar with any of the Coleman Report?
A Yes, sir.
Q you then are familiar with the data which says
that when students are isolated racially or according to
socioeconomic conditions, that they achieve less and that as
they — as they are integrated — that if they are integrated
with their peers who are in the middle — who are white and o f ;
,
a middle class economic character, that they — their develop-j
ment begins to rapidly improve without damage to the achieve
ment of the middle class student with %*iom they are integrated,
You are familiar with those findings, are you not?
A Yes.
q You agree with that?
A I would agree with it, yes, sir.
q And, are you familiar with the findings and
doctrine of that report that disadvantaged students, especially
black, are more strongly influenced by the student environment
than advantaged students?
A Yes; yes, sir.
0 And, would you likewise agree that the students
in Chattanooga High School and Brainerd High School are
generally white, middle class students, while those in
u n i t k c s t a v e s r ounr
J Black - Cross 628
A
,
i
Riverside and Howard who are admittedly all black are more
generally of disadvantaged, as Mr. Carr put it, or lower
socioeconomic class?
A Yes, sir.
Q So that then would you or not agree that the
continuing segregation — let's eliminate the word "segrega
tion” and call it isolation — that the continuing racial and
socioeconomic isolation of the black children in Riverside and
Howard High School is harmful to those children in terms of
their achievement?
A Personally, I would think so.
Q And, Exhibit 46 tends to support that rather
dramatically, doesn't it?
A Well —
q (Interposing) In respect to which I have pointed
out?
A It points out that there is probably some isolation
here in terms of the figures.
Q And it points out that that isolation is doing
damage in terms of the education or advancement of those
children, too, doesn't it?
A This — I mean, this is strictly, I think,
personally that — I mean, I have to make this statement. All
of our teachers in the city school system are qualified people
i • • • ' ■ v ».c.uHr p i -»owt
) N *» ' M ’ t J U ' . M u . ' C O l / R !
Black - Cross 629
All of them have their degrees. All of them, I think, are
quite capable. When I say all, I am talking, now, in general;
but, I think that it isn't the quality of the instruction that
really, I think —
Q (Interposing) It isn't the quality of the instruc
tion that causes the damage, it's the racial isolation, isn't
it?
A I would say that the isolation might have more
|
to do with it in that it's hard to expand your concepts if i
they are limited somewhat, and I am not sure — I am saying
this, I don't think there's really this case, personally, I
don't think there is any intended segregation whatsoever, I
really don't.
I am speaking from a personal standpoint; however,
jthe way things are, it is quite segregated. |
Q Yes, sir. And, it is that that does the harm to
the student?
A Well, I would say it has a great deal to do with
it. I think most authorities agree today with that and the
research seems to bear this out.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. All right, sir. Thank you
very much.
BY MR. WITT:
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
HK. H *•»».> M Of f-'« : A L C O uRT Pt»*OWTfu
U N I T E D S T A T E S ' O U H »
Black - Redirect 630
Q M r . Blade, did I understand you to say that you
had liad a course in sensitivity training?
A i — it wasn't called sensitivity training. What
it was, it was conducted at Tennessee Wesleyan College, and
at that time this was seem thing that was offered through one
of the employees at the Central Office.
And, they called them — let's see, -T* groups,
I believe it was.
Q "T" groups?
A "T" groups, right. Sensitivity training wasn't
mentioned. The word wasn't mentioned, but I am familiar with
sensitivity training, and this, I would say, this was what
was happening.
q Is this (spelling) T-E-A or the letter 'r?
A Just the letter.
q Why was it called — given this name?
A I really don't know. This was the name of the
group and -- or the groups.
g All right. I don’t understand what's meant by
sensitivity training and I'd like for you to explain it to
me.
A Well, I think it's something that's quite mis
understood and it's very easy to be misunderstood in this
In fact, I guess it would be safer not to get into it,area.
but if you want to know — when you are in a very conservative !
i
icommunity, naturally, any time you get into groups and discuss
things that are very personal and intimate to you — and you
do this openly — to me it's sort of like an old-fashioned
prayer meeting where everybody says what he thinks.
And, out of this is supposed to break down barriers
between you and the people that are in this particular group.*
In fact, you have to sit in a circle to begin with and they
don't want a desk between us like this is between us or that
and that you want to get eyeball to eyeball and talk about
tilings that are happening here and now and they didn't care
what you were or where you were from or what your rank was.
This wasn’t important, didn't even want to know it. They were
interested in you as a person and how you felt about yourself.
And throughout all — throughout the — all
throughout the meeting, people were talking about how they
felt about anything that came out of this group. And, the
misinformation about it was, I think, the fact that later we
had a movie or something called "Bill, Ted, Alice," or
something like this, and people were taking off clothes and
doing all these kinds of things and nothing like that ever
occurred.
In fact, found out later, mostly educators and
businessmen were the only people there.
Black - Redirect 631
I
R I C M A S U ->Ni O H l A l p l H
U N I T ^ n * T A I ‘ . S l ■ S ’ R r i . O U R T
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Black - Redirect oii
Q How long did this course last?
A It was one week.
Q One week?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did it have a stated purpose?
A Hot that I know of. As far as
objective?
0 Yes.
— if you naan the
A There was no objective except that this was a
form of training, I'd say it’s more of a demonstration form
of training of what was to come, because this has been a
number of years ago.
And, you haven’t really heard about it so much
until the last few years. And, I would say this was more of
an in-service training for people in the field so you could
see what actually is developing, what’s happening, or what
will be happening, or what they thought would be happening in
the future.
q How many people participated in this particular
course?
A I think there were about 120 altogether.
Q One hundred twenty people sitting in a circle?
A No, they break up into groups of ten, about, I
think there's about ten in each group, something like that.
: . v l -< O* u *i l O l i H l Rk
. N M . t , ' * ! 1 C O U R T
> H
Black - Redirect u33
Q Now, Mr. Williams used the expression this
training was — aids — purpose of breaking down certain
defenses mentally and otherwise. What does that mean to you?
MR. WILLIAMS: I want to correct you. I didn't
say defenses, I said barriers. I think I was — not my
intention to say defenses.
MR. WITT: My notes indicate defenses. I may have
I understand it is breaking down those inhibiting factors that j
Iwill keep you from talking with someone else, communicating
with someone else, even care about listening or feeling how
someone else feels about something.
barriers, I guess, that you psychologically have established
over the years between you and whatever members of the group
that you happen to be in contact with.
BY MR. WITT:
heard barriers and said defenses.
THL WITNESS: well, break down defenses as feu: as >
And, the barriers you breedt down really are the
Q Well, participation in this meeting was voluntary
was it not?
A Pardon?
Q Participation in this week's session was voluntary
so far as you know?
A Yes.
' « W A f » D S M I T H O l H C ' A l i O O R T R» R O R < ► n
H N I T f O s t a t e s I i S T R I f . T C O U R ’
Black - Redirect 634
0 Would involuntary participation in such a meeting
be possible?
A I don't think so. I don't think it would work
involuntax ily.
Q Do you have any explanation based upon your
experience as to why more black students have not entered City
High or Brainerd or Kirkman?
A I have no data that would support any statement
as to why, it just seems to me that there is a — that all of
these schools, as far as I am concerned, as fax as has been
my experience, as I said before, have course offerings I think
that are quite adequate, maybe not everything you would need efr
want, but that's something to work toward.
And, all of them are on a voluntary basis. Mo
forces anyone to go to a school — a certain school. It's up
to that student to decide, he and his parents, which school h«
will attend.
And, many reasons have been given here, I have
noticed. I think they all apply. Sane cases, I think maybe
it's because maybe they are closer to this school, maybe
because of socioeconomic status, and this is for poor (hits
as well as disadvantaged black that they might feel insecure
in this environment.
Could be — it could be any number of factors that
Black - Redirect 635
would — that might keep a student from going to a high school
to a certain high school.
Q In order to learn, the students need to feel
comfortable in the environment in which they find themselves?
A There is a matter of disagreement here, depends on
who you read, I suppose. Some people say you must have a
problem before you can learn. In this case, if you have got a
problem, I don't think it's — I think that a little anxiety
isn't too bad.
So, I guess that would be opposite, somewhat
opposite from comfortable. But, I don't feel you can be under
pressure and learn adequately or as much. I don't know, this
is a thing of semantics as far as I see it.
Q In the discussion of the guidance counselors at
the junior highs where you have — where the students have an
opportunity to be counseled by a black or a white, do you have
any statistics or any evaluation to indicate what happens
when students are faced with these kinds of choices?
A No, sir.
Q Would a black student counsel more readily with
a black counselor or with a white counselor?
A Once again, it's a matter of who you read. There
is some literature —
U (Interposing) Based upon your experience.
R I C H A R D S M i T h O ^ F I C A L C O U R T R E P O R T E D
U N I T E D S T A T E S D S T R I C T C O U R T
;i
10
11
12
.2 I
14
l.'i
Hi
17
15
111
20
A Well, based upon ray experience, I find that in
our system, that in the schools that I have visited, I have
3een probably more black counselors counsel with black student!
and white students counsel with white; but I have seen the
opposite, also.
Q Is counseling — is the quality of the counseling
affected by whether or not the student feels comfortable with
the guidance counselor?
A Yes, I think the student should feel comfortable.
I think if you go through the counseling process, that there
are stages, developmental stages that sort of evolve. I think
first of all the counselor must make himself known that he is
at the school. He is there to help the student with his
problems. It could be personal, social, locational, or
educational, any kind of problems.
I think then that the counselor should make every
effort to offer his help to students, black or %diite, and in
any situation. I think then that if a student corns to you or
is referred to you by a teacher or refers himself or is refern id
by his parents, then you must have established some form of
rapport, some way of, as you say, I guess of making him feel
black - Redirect 636
easy.
Q
correct?
Then, the student must have a choice, is that
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R E P O H T E R
U N I T E L 1 S T A T E S DIJ -t r i c T C O U R T
Black - Redirect 637
A He has the choice of choosing you if he feels
comfortable or going to soamone else if he doesn't.
Q Only if there is a black and a white available?
A Yes, yes. If there is a black and a white availab
obviously, he has choices.
Q And, if a black and a white were not available,
he does not have a choice?
A That's right, or he doesn't have a choice as far
as counselors are concerned.
Q Then, is the freedom of choice of the student
important?
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I object to that. That's a
broad question.
MR. WITT: You laid the groundwork for this.
MR. WILLIAMS: Not relevant to this.
THE COURT: He may state his answer.
BY MR. WITT;
Q would you answer the question, please?
A I think that a student must be given options. He
must be given choices in any decision he makes. I can't see
it being already, almost predetermined, the outcome of the
session before he walks in there. I think he needs — he
needs the right of choice.
MR. WITT: Thank you, Mr. Black. No further
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R F P O R T I R
U N I T E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Black - Recross oJd
questions.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
U You wore talking about choices, you were talking
about the guidance process, is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Counselors assigned to certain students in any
given school?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q All right. Let me ask you this, with regard to
the going of students from — with regard to the selection of
high schools.
Do guidance counselors front the high schools visit
the junior high schools in the spring to try to solicit
attendance of students?
A They make their services available to the junior
high schools.
Q They don't necessarily visit it, they just make
their services available?
A Many of them do.
0 All right. Do the guidance — do the guidance
counselors front Howard and Riverside go up to — go to the
white junior high schools and solicit?
A I — only if they are asked.
R I C H A R D S M I T H O F F I C I A L C O U R T R t P O R T E R
U N I T E D S T A T E S Oi S T R I C T C O U R T
Black - Recross 639
Q Only if they are asked?
A Or if they wish to, they may go on their own.
Q But, as far as you know, they do not — they do
not go, do they?
A Well, we have counselors at Howard and Riverside
that have been to Brainerd and to Chattanooga High School,
yes.
U Well, I am talking about to the junior high schools.
A Oh, you mean the high school counselor going to
the junior high?
U Yes, don't some of the white high school — don't
some of the high school counselors go to junior high schools
to advise them — to advise students of the groups of courses
that are available in their schools?
A Right, part of the orientation program is that
high school counselors are on call to the junior high schools
to explain their program more fully to students in any of the
feeder schools, the junior high schools.
U Do the black guidance counselors from Riverside
t
or do any guidance counselors from Riverside or Howard go to
the predominately white junior high schools and solicit there?
A I don't think and solicit, no, sir.
Q And orientate students there on the programs that
arc available?
R I C H A R D S M I T H O f - M C i A L C O U R T R t P O R T f i H
U N I T L D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T C O U R T
Black - Recross 640
A Some of them have provided orientation to ûtuc
students at Brainerd and Chattanooga High School.
Q No, sir, 1 mean in a regular fashion, in these
groups that you are talking about.
A I am not sure, now. I really understand —
Q (Interposing) Well, I want to make sure that I
understand. In the spring of the year, isn’t it customary
that guidance counselors from the high schools go to the
junior high schools and talk to the graduating classes at the
junior high schools to orientate them about the programs that
are available in their particular high schools?
A If requested.
0 They go only if requested?
A Or they can go on their own, but usually it's at
the request of the junior high school.
g All right. Do you know whether or not Howard
and Riverside get requests from the predominately white high
schools to come?
A
Q
They have visited, yes.
Well, when you say they have, that sounds so
indefinite. That's maybe one time in the last four years. I
am asking you about what is usual and customary and regular.
Do they usually and regularly?
A Once a junior high school counselor has provided
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the information, has talked with parents, has talked with
students, student's made his decision, the student wants some
orientation about the school he is going to attend, he has
made his choice, then they call in the counselors from those
schools to come over and give him this orientation.
q I see. So, there is actually no solicitation from
the high school guidance counselors?
A No, sir, there isn't any solicitation at all as
far as I can see.
q All right. One last question — one last question
Would you agree that, assuming that the desegregation plan had
the aim and objective of eliminating segregation in the high
\
schools, the freedom of choice feature has been ineffective
in that regard?
A In —
Q (Interposing) In eliminating segregation? You'd
have to agree that it has, wouldn't you?
A Well, the only — the only thing I can say is
based upon the results of what is.
g And what is?
A I still must say this.
q No, sir, what regards — have they or not been
ineffective?
A Well, when you talk about forced integration, you
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are sayinq one thing; if you are talking about voluntary
integration or voluntary — having freedom of choice, that's
another tiling, so —
Q (Interposing) Without regard to the term forced or
voluntary integration and with regard to the question of
eliminating actual existing segregation in the school system,
would you not have to agree that freedom of choice has been
ineffective in that regard in Chattanooga?
A Yes, because there are many factors including
freedom of choice.
Q Whatever the factors, whatever the reasons why
people haven't elected to go to an integrated school, that
has been ineffective as a method of abolishing segregation,
hasn't it?
A Well, we 8till have two predominately all-black
schools.
Q So, it's been ineffective, then, hasn't it?
A Well, yes, I mean, I can't argue with that.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WITTj
Q Just two questions, Mr. Black, has freedom of
choice desegregated Xirknan Technical High School?
A Well, we have blacks and whites, therefore I'd say
1
4
(i
/
8
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10
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freedom of choice has prevailed pretty much here in that sense,
yes.
Black - Redirect 643
Q Has freedom of choice desegregated City High School
A It's desegregated in the sense that we have some
blacks at City High School.
0 Substantial number of blacks?
MR. WILLIAMS: I object to that, that's a
?
conclusion of the Court.
MR. WITT: All right.
THE COURT: Is there much further examination of
l - j this witness?
1‘t MR. WITT: This is all.
14 1 THE COURT: I have another matter I must take up
i:> this evening with counsel that are here from Washington. I
I want to recess about on time.
17 | MR. WITT: Just one, if I may.
18 I THE COURT: All right,
lit | BY MR. WITT:
jo | q Has freedom of choice desegregated Brainerd High
•ji I School?
■jj I a They have black students.
j> I MR. WITT; Thank you.
THE COURT: ‘ Anything further of this witness or
you want to examine him further tomorrow?
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