Motion for Leave of Court to Appear Herein as Amicus Curiae; Memorandum in Support of Motion for Leave of Court to Appear Herein as Amicus Curiae; Order to File Amicus Curiae
Public Court Documents
June 7, 1988
Cite this item
-
Case Files, Chisom Transcripts. Court Transcripts (Direct and Cross Examination), 1987. 670aa71f-f211-ef11-9f8a-6045bddc4804. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/861b4014-e399-47f5-86a1-3e9b9d0e8864/court-transcripts-direct-and-cross-examination. Accessed April 06, 2025.
Copied!
EXAMINATION INDEX
p.
2
3 WITNESS
4 HENRY A. DILLON
PAGE NO.
5 ,Direct Exam. by Mr. Morial 2
6 Cross Exam. by Mr. Habans
7 COUNCILWOMAN DOROTHY TAYLOR
8 Direct Exam. by Mr. Morial 52
9 Cross Exam. by Habans 63
10 A. E. PAPALE
11 Cross Exam. by Mr. Morial 71
12 COUNCILMAN' JAMES SINGLETON
13 Direct Exam. by Mr. Morial 124
14 Cross Exam. by Mr. Habans 130
15 REVEREND AVERY ALEXANDER
16 Direct Exam. by Mr. Morial 134
17 CARL GALMON
18 Direct Exam. by Mr. Morial 141
19 Cross Exam. by Mr. Habans 158
20 IRMA'DIXON
21 Direct Exam. by Mr. Morial 170
22 HAZEL REED
23 Cross Exam. by Mr. Habans 185
24 Redirect Exam. by Mr. Morial 191
25 CHARLES EMILE BRUNEAU
26 Direct Exam. by Mr. Habans 193
27 Cross Eyam. by Mr. Morial 204
36.
0 0
1 REPRESENTATIVE SHERMAN COPELAND
2 Direct Exam. by Mr. Morial 213
3 Cross Exam. by Mr. Habans _217
4 Redirect Exam. by Mr. Morial 227
5 KENNETH C. DE JEAN
6 Direct Exam. by Mr. Habans 232
7 Cross Exam. by Mr. Morial 236
8 JULIA NAGEL
9 Direct Exam. by Mr. Habans 247
10 Cross Exam. by Mr. Morial 292
11 Redirect Exam. by Mr. Habans 311
12 SAM J. ALTOBELLO
13 Direct Exam. by M. Habans 313
14 Cross Exam. by Mr. Morial 321
15 A. E. PAPALE
16 Direct Exam. by Mr. Habans 328
17 Cross Exam. by Mr. Morial 340
18 MARC MORIAL
19 Direct Examination 348
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
CJ,
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 MR. MORIAL: As my first
3 witness, we're going to call Henry A.
4 Dillon, III to the stand.
5 HENRY A. DILLON, III, 2602
6 1/2 Frenchmen Street, New Orleans,
7 Louisiana, on Monday, July 20,
8 1987, after having been first duly sworn to
9 tell the truth, the whole truth, and
10 nothing but the truth, was examined and
11 testified as follows:
12 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR . MORIAL :
13 Q. Mr. Dillon, sir, again for the
14 record,_ would you please state your name
15 and residence address?
16 A. My name is Henry A. Dillon, III.
17 My residence address is 2602 1/2 Frenchmen
18 Street, New Orleans, Louisl.ana.
19 Q. Sir, could you ci.Lve the Court
20 some indication of your educational
21 background?
22 A. I'm a high school graduate, a
23 college graduate from the University of New
24 Orleans, Bachelors of Science in
25 Management.
26 Q. In connection with your
27 activities at the University of New Orleans
0 (7?
1
2 regit.. ion activity?
3
4 Student Government pvesident at the
5 University of New Orleans, former chairman
6 of the Louisiana Student Association,
7 former member of the L.S.U. Counsel of
8 Presidents, and we have been actively
9 involved in voter registration since around
10 1981.
11• Q. Sir, the Louisiana Voter
12 Registration Education Crusade, named
13 plaintiff in this lawsuit, could you first
14 of all tell the Court your connection with
15 that organization, and then secondly,
16 explain what kind of organization that is?
17 A. Well, my connection with it, I'm
18 the founder, one of the founders, and the
19 executive member, board member. What was
20 the second part?
21 Q. The second part was could you
22 tell us what type of organization the
23 crusade is?
24 A. It's a nonprofit, nonpartisan
25 corporation. It's an advocacy.
26 organization. We promote voter
27 registration drives, voter registration
were you involved in any voting and voter
A. Yes. I'm a former two-term
0;7)O
1 issues. We motivate voters to register and
2 to vote.
3 Q. Okay, sir. Could you please tell
4 us under what authority you, as Executive
5 Director, brought this suit on behalf of
6 the Crusade?
7 A. Under what authority?
8 - Q. Yes, sir?
9 A. Okay. Well, the idea came to us
10 from you. And our Board of Directors
11 unanimously approved the effort to go forth
12 with the suit.
13 Q. And who was on the Board of
14 Directors of the Crusade?
15 A. There were originally three board
16 members when it began, myself, my brother,
17 Mat Dillon, who is the current Student
18 Government President at Southern University
19 in New Orleans and Roy Rodney. 'We amended
20 that and added two more persons, yourself
21 and Walter Willard. So we have a
22 five-member board right now.
23 Q. And, sir, does the Crusade have
24 any national affiliations?
25 A. Yes. We're affiliated with
26 several national voter registration
27 organizations. The first one is the
C
1 National Organization on Black Voter
2 Participation in Washington, D. C. The
3 second one is the Citizen Participation
4 Project which is affiliated with the
5 Missing Half Foundation.
6 Q. Has the Crusade been involved in
7 voter registration drives over the years?
8 A. Yes. Well, the Crusade was
9 chartered in 1985. Before that we were
10 involved in a lot of different voter
11 registration drives. But specifically
12 speaking to the Crusade, since 1985 we have
13 launched numerous drives in the New Orleans
14 community and everything from standing on a
15 street corner soliciting registered voters
16 to organized funded campaigns to promote
17 voter registration and voter education.
18 Q. Does the Crusade ha,ve a partisan
19 affiliation?
20 A. No, we're nonpartisan. We don't
21 promote candidates by name or anything like
22 that. We just ask people to register to
23 vote.
24 Q. You, yourself, sir, how long have
25 you been involved in voter registration?
26 A. Well, I was interested in voter
27 registration work before 1981. But I
c. 0
1 guess I'm not exactly sure when my start
2
3
4
5
6 Q. Uh-huh (affirmative). Since that
7 time, could you tell the Court about how
8 many voter registration drives you
9 organized and participated in?
10 A. Well, I don't really know
11 specifically how many, but I can tell you
12 that it has been a numerous amount that I
13 have personally organized in my years of
14 involvement. I don't really know how many
15 exactly.
16 Q. You're familiar, would you say,
17 with the requirements for voter
18 registration, the system of voter
19 registration as well as the system for
20 removal of voters?
21 A. Absolutely.
22 Q. On the registration rolls?
23 A. Yes, I am.
24 Q. Has the Crusade been involved
25 with voter purge issues?
26 A. We have always been concerned
27 with about -- well, the answer to the
was, but I guess I could say around
1981-'82 I became actively involved in
promoting voter registration on an
organized level.
OA,
1 question is yes. And to elaborate, we've
2 always been concerned about all aspects of
3 voter registration, especially the purge
4 issue. Our involvement heightened in 1986
5 during the republican motivated scheme that
6 attempted to remove black voters from the
7 voting rolls illegally. And once that
8 happened we heightened our interest and we
9 did more study into the matter to determine
10 what could be done to prevent these type of
11 situations from attempting to intimidate
12 and disenfranchise voters from the rolls.
13 Q. Uh-huh (affirmative). And you
14 mentioned a purge which took place last
15 year. My only question with regard to that
16 is did your involvement with that purge
17 give you any additional information with
18 regard to the affect of the timing of these
19 activities on the voting public?
20 A. Well -
21 MR. HABANS: Excuse me, Your
22 Honor. Object to the foundation for this
23 witness to testify arguably as an expert
24 witness in an area that I don't believe
25 he's qualified.
26 THE COURT: Objection
27 sustained.
•
1 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
2 Q. Sir, let me ask you this: Has
3 your -- has the Crusade been involved at
4 all with the Louisiana legislature?
5 A. Well, yes. We testified before
6 the legislature and we advocate, you know,
7 things in the area of voter registration.
8 Q. Are you familiar with the current
9 canvass which is at issue in this lawsuit?
10 A. I'm familiar with the two
11 different types of canvasses that occur.
12 The first one is challenge of a person's
13 residency, and the second is challenge of
14 whether or not a person has voted within
15 four years.
16 Q. Uh-huh affirmative). And are
17 you familiar with the canvass whi:h is at
18 issue in this litigation?
19 A. Yes. The canvass involves the
20 mailing or canvassing of people whom they
21 are challenging their residency.
22 Q. Do you know what areas of the
23 city are being subjected to this particular
24 canvass?
25 A. Yes. The 8th and the 9th wards.
26 Q. And through your involvement with
27 voter registration, are you somewhat
0 0
1 familiar with the population and
2 demographics of those wards?
3 A. Well, I know that the 9th ward -
4 MR. HABANS: Excuse me. I
5 object to the answer as not being
6 responsive.
7 THE COURT: Objection
8" stained. Answer the question.
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
10 Q. Are you familiar with the - MIS
11 THE WITNESS: I don't
12 understand what all that means.
13 THE COURT: Well, you didn't
14 respond to the question. When he asks you
15 a question, you've got to answer the
16 questions directly. If you want to
17 explain, I'll give you the right to explain
18 any answer.
19 THE WITNESS: Which
20 question?
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
22 Q. Mr. Dillon, are you familiar with
23 the demographics of the -- demographics and
24 the population of the 8th and 9th wards
25 which are being subjected to this canvass?
26 A. Yes, I'm familiar with it.
27 Q. Could you explain how you're
0
•
1 familiar?
2 A. Well, I guess the most important
3 thing in terms of my familiarity is that
4 the 9th ward is the largest black voting
5 ward in the city.
6 Q. Uh-huh (affirmative). And this
7 canvass is being targeted at both the 8th
8 and 9th wards?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Okay. You mentioned that you
11 personally have testified before the
12 Louisiana legislature?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. And you've also testified that
15 the Crusade has monitored legislative
16 activities over the years?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Sir, are you familiar with the
19 requirements placed on purging by the
20 legislature?
21 A. Well, I know that last year -
22 MR. HABANS: Excuse me.
23 THE COURT: You see, you're
24 not answering the question.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am.
26 MR. MORIAL: Could you
27 explain --
10
r.D
1 MR. HABANS: Objection, Your
2 Honor. This witness' familiarity with the
3 legislative guidelines restrictions or
4 otherwise imposed upon Registrars is not
5 relevant to the case.
6 THE COURT: What's the
7 materiality here?
8 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor,
9 this case is about the additional
10 requirements that have been placed on
11 purging by the legislature.
12 THE COURT: You're talking
13 about the 1986 Act?
14 MR. MORIAL: Yes.
15 THE COURT: Why don't you
16 ask him that.
17 MR. MORIAL: Just laying the
18 proper foundation, Your Honor.
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
20 Q. Are you familiar with the.law
21 made in 1986?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How are you familiar with them?
24 A. Well, I know that the law
25 required purges to take place in January.
26 Q. Uh-huh (affirmative). And based
27 on your involvement with the legislature,
•
1 do you have any familiarity with why?
2
3
4
5
6
8
• A. Well --
MR. HABANS: Objection.
THE COURT: Objection
sustained.
THE WITNESS: Do I answer?
THE COURT: No, you don't
answer that. I don't want this man to give
9 me a- history of any legislative act. I
10 don't think he's qualified to do so.
11 MR. MORIAL: I would only
12 suggest for the record as the Executive
13 Director of an organization which is solely
14 involved in voter registration, voter
15 canvass and voter purge issues, that his
16 familiarity is beyond the familiarity of an
17 ordinary lay person with respect to these
18 issues.
19 THE COURT: I'm not going to
20 let him testify. He's not a member of the
21 legislature. I'm not going to let him
22 testify to the history of a legislative
23 act. Objection stained.
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
25 Q. Mr. Dillon, what is the
26 significance of the timing of canvass
27 activities?
0
•
1 A. Well, it's very significant
2 because in my organizing in the community I
3 come in contact with a lot of voters and I
4 have a chance to interact daily with voters
5 and get their opinions about things. And
6 in terms of being able to motivate people
7 to participate in this system, I'm aware
that there are a lot of things that can be
9 done to promote voter registration and
10 there are a lot of things that can be done
11 to take away from the promotion of voter
12 registration in active voting. In terms of
13 the canvass issue, when the little card is
14 sent out with all the small writing and
15 legalis on it, I get a lot of complaints
16 daily.
17 MR. HABANS: Objection.
18 Hearsay.
19 THE COURT: Objection
20 stained. Don't testify to what somebody
21 told you.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well,
23 Your Honor, I don't understand.
24 THE COURT: You can testify
25 that you get complaints, but you cannot
26 testify to what the people told you. That
27 would be hearsay.
0 4.7),
• 1 THE WITNESS: Okay. All
2 right. Well, I do get complaints on a
3 daily basis.
4 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
5 Q.
6
Excuse me. Go ahead.
A. And I feel based upon these
7 complaints that these canvasses - 4111M,
8- MR. HABANS: Excuse me. If
9
10
13.
this gentleman is going to give an opinion,
I renew my objection to his expert
testimony.
12 THE COURT: In view of his
13 position with this. organization, I think he
14 can testify-to the conclusions that he
15 reads as a result of his having spoken to
16 registered voters. I think he's allowed to
17 do that. I'm going to overrule your
18 objection.
19 MR. HABANS: Thank you, your
20 Honor.
21 THE WITNESS: Okay. Based
22 upon my conversations with registered
23 voters, I feel that this card serves to
24 confuse many, many people that are
25 interested in voting and are interested in
26 voter education. My conversations and my
27 contacts with people in the community
14
1 suggest to me that once they receive this
2 card there's a tremendous amount of concern
3 on the part of those who may not be as
4 aware of the system as you or I may be. So
5 it is very important and I think the
6 legislature noticed that in their
7 discussions. It's very important that
8 these people be given time to react to the
9 canvassing procedure and I think that is
10 why the law was changed to purges occuring
11 in January much way before the major
12 elections, to give people time to react to
13 that.
14 MR. HABANS: Excuse me. Let
15 me move to strike the last response as
16 going well beyond what the Court permitted.
17 THE COURT: That's right.
18 You're going into legislative intents which
19 I maintained an objection to that sometime
20 ago. Don't ramble. Try to answer the
21 question. Try to be responsive. Your
22 counsel will ask you another question after
23 that. Don't ramble on in your answers.
• 24 THE WITNESS: Okay.
25 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
26 Q. Sir, you mentioned that there is
27 a need for people to have time to react?
A. Right.
2 Q. Correct. Are you familiar with
3 what these challenges require a person to
4 do?
5 A. Well, these challenges the
6 specific challenge you're talking here,
7 they send a card out to the people's home
8 and when the card is marked to be forwarded
9 back to the Registrar' Office, if a person
10 has moved or there's some problem with
11 their residence, the cards are forwarded
12 back to the Registrar's Office. Then the
13 procedure is that they send another card of
14 irregularity out challenging a person's
15 residence, and they give them a certain
16 time to come back to the main office. And
17 I would say that it's my understanding that
18 you can only go to the main office in City
19 Hall, not the satellite offices, when you
20 want to verify or change your address or
21 anything of that type. So is that what you
22 were talking about?
23 Q. Yes, sir. So in other words, as
24 a requirement, in effect, of
25 re-registration, the card, if one receives
26 one in the mail --
27 MR. HABANS: Excuse me, I
111
1 object.
2 THE COURT: Don't testify,
3 counsel. Is that your objection?
4 MR. HABANS: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Well, yes. If
6 you receive a card in the mail you have a
7 certain time limit to get back to the
8 Registrar's Office. And again, it's the
9 main office.
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
11 Q. Uh-huh (affirmative).
12 A. Everyone has to go to the main
13 office. And from my prospective it's very
14 important to allow enough time for people
15 to do that, for people to do whatever is
16 required of them, because a lot of people
17 don't have a lot of time to react to this
18 situation. First of all, they're confused
19 by it. That's number one. Because a lot
20 of people are not really familiar with all
21 the procedures and what is takes to deal
22 with this purging canvass system. And
23 secondly, a lot of people have to work that
24 into their schedules. People work. They
•25 have things to do. And it's very important
26 that there be enough time allotted so that
27 you won't have someone become frustrated
o
1 and just forget about voting, you know.
2 MR. HABANS: Excuse me.
3 Before you ask your next question, Mr.
4 Morial, I apologize. I move to strike the
5 last response, Your Honor. This gentleman
• 6 has testified as •to how people react
7 psychological and other affects of the
8 card, time constraints on people's time,
9 way beyond any expertise of any witness,
10 much less this gentleman.
11 THE COURT: His personal
12 opinions have no probative value.
13 MR. HABANS: I want to be
14 sure that the record is clear if there is
15 ever an appeal. I do move to strike.
16 THE COURT: Your objections
17 are being made. No question about that.
18 MR. HABANS: Thank you, Your
19 Honor.
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
21 Q. Sir, you focused in your
22 testimony on timing, and I want to ask you,
23 are you familiar with how many persons are
24 being subjected to this current canvass
25 more or less?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Could you tell the Court?
1 A. 11,700.
2 Q. Okay. Are you familiar more or
3
4
6
7
less with how many persons are being
subjected to this second type of purge that
you mentioned, the failure to vote every
four years?
A. I'm not exactly sure about that.
8 I think it's around
9 THE COURT: Don't guess,
10 please. We don't need any guessing. If
11 you don't know, just say you don't know.
12 THE WITNESS: / don't know .
- 13 the exact number, Your Honor.
14 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
15 Q. You're saying that you're
16 familiar with the fact that there are some
17 11,700 persons who have been subjected to
18 this canvass?
19 A. Right, th-17.'s corrects
20 Q. And could you please state what
21 harm would come to these persons if they
22 are canvassed any time between now and the
23 election that's going to take place this
24 fall?
25 MR. HABANS: Objection.
26 There's no foundation. This gentleman has
27 not been qualified as an expert.
10
•
1 THE COURT: That's correct.
2 Objection sustained.
3 MR. MORIAL: Mr. Dillon --
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, at
6 this time I would like to present a
7 foundation so I can qualify this gentleman
8 as an expert witness.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
11 Q. Mr. Dillon, how long have you
12 been involved in voter registration
13 activities?
14 A. Since 1981.
15 Q. And can you tell me how much of
16 your time since 1981 has you spent working
17 on voter registration activity?
18 A. From about 1981 'till about 1983
19 as a Student Government leader.
20 Q. Uh-huh (affirmative). Have you
21 received -- from 1983 to present how much
22 time have you spent working on vote
23 registration activities?
24 A. From 1983 to present I'd say it
25 was almost like a full-time job.
26 Q. And you were working with what
27 organization at a time?
1 A. Well, in 1983 I worked with the
2 Registration '83 Organization during the
3 gubernatorial election. In 1984 we did
4 some work, in the beginning of the
5 inception of the Crusade, we did some work
6 with the Organization Voter Registration
7 '84. In 1985 the Crusade was incorporated.
8 And since then we have been actively
9 pursuing the interest of registered voters
10 in this state.
11 Q. Okay, sir. So over the years you
12 have worked at times for compensation in
13 the area of voter registration?
14 A. Yes, I have.
15 Q. At other times for no
16 compensation?
17 A. Voluntarily strictly.
18 Q. To illuminate your involvement,
19 could you tell the Court what your
20 particular involvement has been, your
21 particular involvement has been with voter
22 registration in terms of management and
23 direction?
24 A. Well, as a Student Government
25 leader and Chairman of Louisiana Student
26 Association it was my responsibility to try
27 to bridge the gap between student
17\ 0
1 government, Student Government presidents
2 and its registrated voters around the
3 state. In fact, we had several meetings
4 with the statewide registered voters group
5 of which I attended of which we try to make
6 it easier for the registered voters of the
7 state to cooperate with the colleges and
8 universities, and that transformed into a
9 legislative act that was passed. That
10 mandated that the registrars go to the
11 colleges and high schools yearly, which was
12 not done before that. After my involvement
13 - with the student organizations I became
14 involved in the community service. And we
15 are affiliated with two national
16 organizations that promote voter
17 registration, Operation Big Vote which we
18 have been affiliated with and Citizen
19 Participation Project which we recently
20 became involved with. They're affiliated
21 with the Hissing Half Foundation. 'I
22 recently participated in a fellowship
23 program where I travel to Pittsburgh,
24 Pennsylvania to be a fellow for the Hissing
25 Half Foundation to promote voter
26 registration and education in Pittsburgh.
27 And before that, I worked with the
12
(e) kz.-e
I •
Operation Big Vote to organize different
2 chapters around this state, in Washington
3 and in other places. I've been meeting
4 with the different voter registration
5 groups in the southern region in
6 preparation for strategy to promote voter
7 registration in the southern half of United
8 States. It's been extensive, my
9 involvement in that area.
10 Q. You mentioned the fellowship
11 program. Have you attended any other
12 seminars or participated in any other
13 fellowship programs which have provided you
14 with some formalized training with regard
15 to these issues?
16 A. Yes. I've participated in ,
17 several different seminars, one sponsored
18 by the Operation Big Vote Organization.
19 The other one was sponsored by -- it took
20 place in my college days. I'm not sure who
21 sponsored that -- we may have -- where we
22 brought in different speakers around the
23 country as a part of the L.S.A. Convention
24 that we had and they gave us available
25 training with regard to voter-registration,
26 voter mobilization, and things like that
27 that centered around promoting our
21
•
1 political system. Yes, I've been involved.
2 Q. Have you given testimony before
3 any public bodies on voter registration,
4 voter education issues?
5 A. Yes, I have. I testified before
6 the State Legislature on a number of
7 occasions. I've testified before the city
8 . council on a number of occasions.
9 Q. Are there any other bodies before
10 whom you have testified?
11 A. Elected bodies?
12 Q. Yes, sir.
13 A. No, I don't recall any more than
14 that.
15 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, in
16 connection with Mr. Dillon's testimony I
17 would move that he be qualified as an
18 •epert witness in a limited area of voter
19 registration activities here in'Louisiana.
20 THE COURT: Cross?
21 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
22 Q. Mr. Dillon, have you been
23 qualified as an expert in a court of law in
24 the limited area of voter registration
25 activities in the state of Louisiana?
26 A. No.
27 Q. Sir, what was your BAHS degree
') A
- r7;
•
1 in?
2 A. Management.
3 Q. Did you take any courses at the
4 University of New Orleans that were offered
5 by the university system in the area of
6 voter registration in Louisiana?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Sir, are you a lawyer?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Have you ever been a Registrar of
11 Voter?
12 A. N.
13 Q. Have you ever been a Commissioner
14 of Elections?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you ever headed any state,
17 local or federal position iu government in
18 the area of voter registrat,Lon in
19 Louisiana?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Sir, are you trained as a
22 psychologist, psychiatrist, social worker
23 or any other person who has been given
24 expert training in the field of
25 motivational science, that is, whether a
26 small postcard confuses a person or whether
27 it's too difficult for a person to change
(?
•
1 their address by filling in a three by five
2 card or anything like that, sir?
3 A. Can you repeat the question?
4 Q. I'm asking you whether you have
any educational experience and. training in
6 the area of psychology or psychiatry or
7 motivation from the standpoint of
8 determining what a person can or can't
9 understand?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. What is that?
12 A. Well, I took some courses in
13 college for my BAHS degree in motivation.
14 I took some courses in psychology.
15 Q. Your B.S. isn't in motivation?
16 A. It's in Management. But under
17 that curricula we have psychology courses.
18 We have different courses that teach about
19 motivation, about people's motivation. So
20 in answer to your question, yes.
21 Q. Did any of that involve the area
22 of voter registration or changing addresses
23 if one is a registered voter?
24 A. No, it didn't.
25 Q. What organizations have paid you
26 a fee or a salary for your voter
27 registration activities, sir?
• •
1
2
A. The Crusade.
Q. The organization that you're
3 representing here today?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And what was the source of the
6 money?
7 A. And others we have. DCPP
8 fellowship program gives you a stipend
9 covering expenses and things like that.
10 Operation Big Vote. People give you
11 stipends. I'm not exactly sure as to
12 exactly what breakdown of monies that have
13 been available. I don't really recall
14 that.
15 Q. Now, the Louisiana voter
16 Regi;tration League Education Crusade Inc.,
11 th6 ;:orporation that you're representing as
18 its birector, sir, what's the source of the
19 monol, if you would, that pays you this fee
20 or salary?
21 A. Well, that depends on what type
22 you're talking about. We have a lot of
23 sources of money, individual contributions,
24 national organizations, grants, any way
25 that we can properly obtain finances to
26 promote voting rights for our citizens.
27 Q. Now, sir, I noticed that you're
4.1,F
•
(7)
1 one of the incorporators of the Louisiana
2 Voter Registration?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And at the time of incorporation
5 I believe there were three people who
6 signed the articles of incorporation in
7 addition to Mr. Morial?
8 A. That's correct.
9 SQ. . Your attorney. What is the
10 membership of that organization today, sir?
11 A. The membership?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. We don't really keep a membership
14 roll. We're not that organized. We don't
15 keep a list of membership. But the
16 membership involves community scIrvice
17 people and members of other orgrinizations
18 that form a coalition with us a:ound voter
19 registration.
20 MR. HABANS: Your Honor, I
21 object to Mr. Dillon as being qualified as
22 an expert in the field offered as being so
23 broad, so wide and so expansive and to be
24 beyond this gentleman's expert capability.
25 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, in
26 connection with this I would simply state
27 that Mr. Dillon has testified to his long
2 R
•
involvement in voter registration issues
2 here in the state of Louisiana. The Court
3 can take cognizance of the fact that voter
registration voter education are not
5 matters which are taught in the curriculum
6 of any university in this particular state,
7 that all those individuals who gained
8- experience and expertise in the area of
9 voter registration and voter education have
10 gained them working through community
11- organizations and different organizations
12 of the like that Mr. Dillon has testified
13 to. And that it is clear from his
14 testimony previously, as well as his
15 background, that his knowledge in this
16 particular area goes far beyond the
17 knowledge of an ordinary lay person. And
18 it is for those reasons that I would move
19 that he be qualified as an expert witness.
20 THE COURT: Well, I don't
21 feel he's an expert witness because I feel
22 that he has about as much knowledge as
23 other people, voters have on the subject of
24 voter registration and voter education.
25 And I don't think because they have that
26 kind of knowledge makes him an expert in
27 the field. He's never been recognized as
29
V U
1 an Axpert by any court of this state anyway
2 and he hasn't been recognized as an expert
3 in the legislature. So I don't know what
4 makes him an expert except he has knowledge
of voter registration and voter education.
6 But so have a lot of other voters.
7 MR. MORIAL: The only thing
8 I would simply state for the record is I
9 believe the law is that one can be
10 qualified as an expert witness if, in fact,
11 his knowledge goes beyond that of ordinary
12 lay persons. And I would suggest that
13 ordinary lay persons in this particular
14 community do not have the knowledge of
15 these issues that Mr. Dillon has.
16 THE COURT: Well, I don't
17 know the extent of his knowledge because I
18 haven't heard all of the testimony. But
19 from what I heard so far, I can't consider
20 him as an expert.
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
22 Q. Mr. Dillon, let me ask you, has
23 the Crusade received any questions
24 regarding the current canvass and purge
25 which is at issue in this lawsuit?
26 .A. Daily from a lot of different
27 people. Through phone calls, through
t7,3
• •
()
1 people just grabbing me on the street
2 asking me what the problem is and why is
3 the Registrar trying to purge them and a
4 lot of different complaints have •been
5 coming in as to the reasons behind this
6 involvement ever since the 1986 republican
7 motivated illegal purge scheme. A lot of
8 people have been alarmed every time you say
9 purge or canvass or whatever you want to
10 call it. And daily I walk around in the
11 street on grass roots level and pecple come
12 up to me and they ask me again and again
13 why is the Registrar's Office trying to
14
15 an opinion of the people that talk to me
16 that somehow they're being penalized when
17 they try to participate .in voting Etnd that
18 it's a level of confusion that restricts
19 their constitutional right to vote.
20 MR. HABANS: Objection.
21 Move to strike. Not responsive.
22 THE COURT: Well, we don't
23 strike. This is a court of record. But
24 your objection will be noted. He already
• 25 answered the question. •
26 MR. HABANS: Would you
27 prefer if I interrupt?
take away their right to vote. So there is
•
o
1 THE COURT: I think if
2 you've got an objection you ought to make
3 an objection.
4 MR. HABANS: Yes', Your
5 Honor. I didn't want to interrupt •the
6 witness, but I will.
7 THE COURT: Let me ask you
8 something about the Crusade organization
9 because I'm very confused about that. Are
10 you a paid employee of that organization?
11 THE WITNESS: Well, when we
12 can raise money and when we have
13 designated
14 THE COURT: You say "we."
15 Who is "we"? The Board of Directors?
16 THE WITNESS: Anybody that
17 wants to help, Your Honor. We don't turn
18 down help.
19 THE COURT: Who runs the
20 organization? The Board of Directors?
21 THE WITNESS: The Board of
22 Directors.
23 THE COURT: Does the Board
24 of Directors employ you as an employee of
25 the corporation?
26 THE WITNESS: Well, let me
27 answer the question like this. There are
32
tkL. t.f?
•
1 provisions in , our bylaws that allow members
2 to be compensated where possible. When the
3 Crusade first began in 1985 I was strictly
4 volunteer. I operated the Crusade out of
5 my briefcase. But when it became popular
6. and we received grants to do specific
7 programs in the community, then I was
8 compensated based upon a budget we
9 submitted to the people who supplied the
10 grants.
11
12 compensating? The Board f Directors?
13
14
15 submitted a proposal to the national
16 organizatioa that gave us the grant and
17 they OK'd t'4e budget and we implemented it.
18 THE COURT: What do you do
19 for a otherwise?
20 THE WITNESS: Well, I am an
21 employee of the Regional Transit Authority.
22 THE COURT: That's where you
23 get your income? You're on the payroll of
24 the Regional Transit?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
26 THE COURT: Go ahead.
27 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
THE COURT: - Who did the
They decided what you're going to get?
THE WITNESS: No. We
ii
t..)1
.0 • 44.:;)•
1 Q. Just to clarify for the Court,
2 Mr. Dillon, in 1986 did you receive
3 compensation from the Crusade to coordinate
4 activities?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Could you tell the Court if that
7 compensation was over the whole period of
8- time, or was it concentrated in a month or
9 two-month period?
10 A. If I can recall, it was over a
11 period of time, several months, some
12 months. I'm not exactly sure how many.
13 But it was over a period of time.
14 Q.
15 compensation?
So from time to time you receive
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. For conducting these activities?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. And your role with the Crusade is
20 as Executive Director?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. And that role makes you the
23 highest ranking employee in the Crusade,
24 the highest ranking person?
25 A. Staff person. I would say yes.
26 Q. Does the organization have an
27 Advisory Board?
34
ST1
1 A. Yes, it does.
2 Q. Could you name some members of
3 the Advisory Board?
4 A. All of the black elected
5 officials in the city are members of the
6 Advisory Board. Community Service
7 Organizations, the Community Center set up
8 all around the city. They're members.
9 Different activists are members. There's a
10 long list. Not a written list, but there's
11 a long list of members of our Advisory
12 Board that have been very active in helping
13 •us limplement our programs.
14 Q. When have the members -Advisory
15 Board been publicly recognized as members?
16 A. Well, several occasions in 1985.
17 As a matter of fact, we have an annual
18 reception in which we award certificates to
19 the members of our Advisory Board, and
20 we've had two since our inception in
21 conjunction with our involvement with the
22 Student Government Association around the
23 city and state.
24 THE COURT: Any black
25 elected official that takes the stand here
26 I can presume is a member of your Advisory
27 Board?
1 THE WITNESS: Most of them
2 I'm sure, except those who didn't pick up
3 their certificate, and I don't have --
4 THE COURT: They'd have the
5 right to pick up the certificate and be a
6 member?
7 THE WITNESS: Right, that's
8 correct. As a matter of fact, Your Honor,
9 we have a salute to elected officials each
10 year. It's an annual program where we get
11 together and discuss these issues with our
12 elected officials and with our community
13 . people, and we do awards. I was at the
14 Capital recently and Senator Bagneris has
15 his certificate on the wall. I was very
16 proud to see that.
17 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, I
18 have no further questions at this time.
19 THE COURT: Cross?
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
21 Q. Mr. Dillon, are you a registered
22 voter in the city?
23 A. Yes, I am.
24 Q. What ward do you live in?
- 25 A. What ward do I live in or what
26 ward do I register in?
27 Q. Let's take what ward do you live?
36
r *.
A. I have a dual residency, so
2 live in two different places.
3 Q. What ward do you live in? Excuse
4 me? You live two places?
5 A. Yes, I have a dual residence.
6 Q. Which wards do you live?
7 A. The 7th and the 9th.
8 Q. Which ward are you registered to
9 vote in?
10 A. The 9th.
11 Q. How do you decide which ward yom
12 register?
13 A. Because my parent's house is •in
14 the 9th ward and that's a more stable
15 residence for— me. Any other place I'm
16 liable not to be able to pay rent and have
17 to go home again.
18 Q. How long have you lived in the
19 7th ward?
20 A. My grandmother also lived in the
21 7th ward. Off and on, I guess, for a good
22 while. I'm not really sure.
23 Q. Let me ask -- if I can ask you to
24 be a little more specific. How long have
25 you lived in the 7th ward?
26 A. I just answered that question.
27 Q. Do you sleep and get your mail --
•
1. MR. MORIAL: Objection.
These questions are not germane to this
3 particular issue which is presented.
4 THE COURT: They might
5 certainly develop to be germane. Objection
6 overruled.
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
8 Q. You are one of the personally
9 named plaintiffs in this suit; are you not?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. You have filed an affidavit, the
12 only affidavit attached to the petition for
13 Temporary Restraining Order, alleging that
14 you would be irreparably harmed if the
15 canvass were allowed to be complete; is
16 that true?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. You're familiar with the
19 affidavit that I'm speaking of, are you
20 not? You're familiar?
21 I signed several affidavits in
22 these trials. If I can see it, I can tell
23 you if I'm familiar with it.
24 MR. HABANS: May I approach
25 the witness, Your Honor?
26 THE COURT: Sure.
27 MR. HABANS: I haven't
C. --
1 marked this as an exhibit yet.
2 MR. MORIAL: May I see it?
3 S MR. HABANS: It was attached
4 to your petition.
5 MR. MORIAL: I'd still like
to see it.
7 THE COURT: Counsel has a
8 right to see it. Show it to him before you
9 show it to the witness.
10 MR. HABANS: Let the record
11 reflect that Mr. Mc-rial's signature is on
12 it, also.
13 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
14 Q. There you go, sir?
15 A. Thank you. Yes, I'm familiar
16 with this.
17 Q. Did you sign that?
18 A. I approvt4d for it to be signed.
19 Q. Excuse me. The question was did
20 you sign that?
21 A. I don't recall if I signed this
22 or not. Like I said, I signed a lot of
23 them. This may have been one that I
24 signed. But I know, there was one - 011111
25 THE COURT: Here. Look at
26 the original and tell me if this is your
27 signature.
cf)
1 THE WITNESS: It may be,
2 Your Honor. I just don't remember. I've
3 signed several of these things. I don't
4 know if this is exactly the one that I
5 signed or not. I don't remember. It looks
6 familiar. Sometimes I write fast and that
7 could be my signature. But I don't know.
8 I really don't know.
9 THE COURT: It could not be
10 your signature, also?
11 THE WITNESS: It could be.
12 Well, I don't know.
13 THE COURT: You mean
14 somebody else would appear before Mr.
15 Morial, a Notary Public, and sign the name
16 of Henry C. Dillon?
17 THE WITNESS: It's Henry A.
18 Dillon.
19 THE COURT: Or Henry A?
20 THE WITNESS: What I'm
21 saying, I signed a lot of papers like that.
22 I don't really recall that piece of paper
23 and when I could have signed it.
24 THE COURT: Mr. Morial, can
25 you stipulate?
26 MR. MORIAL: Yes. I can
27 stipulate to the fact that that is Mr.
40
r—ts
S
1 Dillon's signature.
2 THE COURT: Proceed.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay.
4 MR. HABANS: Your Honor, I
5 accept -- I guess I accept Mr. Morial's
6 stipulation as far as it goes . I'd like to
7 know why this gentleman doesn't recognize
8 his handwriting.
9 THE WITNESS: It's not that.
10 THE COURT: I can tell you
11 this: Mr. Morial certainly would not
12 notarize a signature of somebody else
13 holding himself out to be Mr. Dillon. I
14 don't believe he would.
15 'MR. MORIAL: Your Honor,
16 there was quite a bit of confusion when we
17 were filing this lawsuit! Your Honor. I
18 had some medical problems and that could be
19 the reason for your confusion because you
20 came over where I was staying at that
21 particular point and time and we went over
22 some of these things.
23 THE WITNESS: I don't really
24 recall this specifically. Everything was
25 happening so fast.
26 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
27 Q. Sir, the affidavit that's annexed
41
J •,/ o
1 to the petition says that, "she/he would be
2 irreparably harmed if the Orleans Parish
3 Registrar of Voters were allowed to conduct
4 a canvass or purge of the voter
5 registration rolls at this time due to the
6 fact that there is a major primary election
7 on October 24th, 1987." Was this your
8 affidavit on the 2nd day of July, 1987,
9 sir?
10 A. Yes, to the best of my
11 recollection.
12 Q. Sir, isn't it true that you are
13 not in any danger of being purged from the
14 voter rolls because of anything that is
15 being done by,the Registrar of Voters
16 Office or that was being done before the
17 restraining order concerning the annual
18 canvass of registered voters?
19 A. Repeat that question?
20 Q. Sir, isn't it true that you are a
21 registered voter?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. Did you get a canvass card at
24 your legal address?
25 A. I'm not sure if I did or not.
26 But I know I could have probably done that,
27 and if someone would have forwarded that
1 card back to the office, I could have been
2 purged.
3 Q. Have you voted within the last
4 four years?
5 A. Yes, I have.
6 Q. Did you vote -- which one of the
7 wards did you vote?
8 A. I always vote in the same ward at
9 which I am registered.
10 Q. That's Ward 9?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. If you voted within four years,
13 you're not subject to be purged?
14 A. That's not true. You're
15 challenged -- in answer to your question,
16 this particular --
17 Q. I didn't finish my question.
18 A. I didn't know that. I don't mean
19 to be antagonistic. You don't need to be
20 either.
21 THE COURT: Let him answer.
22 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I
23 didn't mean to interrupt him. I thought he
24 was finished.
25 THE COURT: I understand
26 that.
27 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
U U
1 Q. Mr. Dillon, if you voted in Ward
2 9, you said? Is that right or not?
3 THE COURT: No. He said he
4 voted in Ward 9.
5 THE WITNESS: Can I ask you
6 a question?
7 THE COURT: No.
8 - THE WITNESS: I'm confused
9 about what I should do.
10 THE COURT: If you're
11 confused, you've got to talk to your
12 counsel.
13 THE WITNESS: I just want to
14 know when he's finished. Can he give me a
15 signal or something like that?
16 THE COURT: Listen to the
17 question and when it forms a question then
18 you can answer it. He's making a statement
19 that you're a registered voter in Ward 9.
20 You don't deny that, do you?
21 THE WITNESS: No.
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
23 Q. And you voted within four years
24 in Ward 9?
25 A. That's correct.
26 Q. And you've testified earlier that
27 you understand that the purge or the
.44
S
1 canvassing and purge that was being done by
2 the Registrars involves both non-voters for
3 four years and an annual canvass of all
4 registered voters in Wards 8 and 9; is that
5 right?
6 A. Well, I testified that I have the
7 understanding of two types of purges. One
8 that challenges your residence. Card goes
9 to your address and by any means
10 whatsoever, be it mistake or whatever, if
11 it's forwarded back you could be purged.
12 And the second one is if you haven't
13 voted -- I guess they have records to show
• 14 whether or not you have voted once every
15 four years. And those are two ways that
16 you can be denied your corstitutional right
17 to vote.
18 THE COURT: What do you
19 understand about the present system that's
20 being used?
21 THE WITNESS: I understand
22 the present system checks residency
23 requirements and all someone has to be, be
24 it right or wrong, if they mail a card to
25 my house and someone puts it up there to be
26 forwarded back, I can be purged whether I'm
27 living there, whatever the deal is.
1 THE COURT: That's true if a
2 man gets a cards and his wife sends it
3 back, too, isn't it?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
5 But the fact is you can still be purged if
that card goes back and that would indeed
7 irreparably harm me as an individual and
8 thousands of --
9 THE COURT: Let me ask you:
10 You would be purged despite the fact that
11 you voted within the last four years?
12 THE WITNESS: There are two
13 different purges, Your Honor. The first
14 one checks your residential --
15 THE COURT: They don't cross
16 check them?. You don't know of that?
17 THE WITNESS: I have no
18 knowledge of that.
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
20 Q. Mr. Dillon, what is the address
21 at which you vote or through which you vote
22 in Ward 9?
23 A. 10111 Flossmor Drive, my parent's
24 home.
25 Q. To your knowledge, sir, even
26 though Mr. Papale's office mailed the first
27 canvass card on February 10th, 1987 of this
•
1 year, did you receive one of the first
2 canvass - MED
3 MR. MORIAL: Objection. Is
4 your questioning say - •••
5 MR. HABANS: Withdraw the
6 question.
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
8 Q. Sir, do you know if you received
9 at 10111 Flossmor Drive, New Orleans, a
10 canvass card this year?
11 A. I have no knowledge of anything
12 involving the purge. That's why I'm so
13 worried that I might be purged, because I
14 doilet know what happened. If I would have
15 received the card, then I could have taken
16 caPe of it. But I don't know. Somebody
17 miOt have forwarded it back. I really
18 doilet know. That's why I feel I'd be
19 itteparably harmed by this purge issue.
20 THE COURT: Could you have
21 received it and sent it back and forgot
22 about it?
23
24
25 remember?
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
THE COURT: You don't
26 THE WITNESS: I'm in and
27 out. I'm not as stable as some people may
•
1 be. I have a lot of things to do.
2 THE COURT: It could have
3 been that you received a card just as well
4 as it could be that you didn't?
5 THE WITNESS: Speculation
is -- you know.
7 THE COURT: I know, but
8 we've got do speculate when we can't tell
9 it's your handwriting. We just as well
10 speculate on everything else.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
12 I write very fast. I can show you several
13 copies of things where my handwriting is
14 different.
15 THE COURT: Proceed.
16 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
17 Q. Mr. Dillon, you took time to
18 appear before Mr. Marc Morial. and to
19 execute this affidavit on July 2, 1987; is
20 that correct, sir?
21 A. To the best of my recollection.
22 I took a lot of time to do a lot of things.
23 I don't have a chronological order of
24 exactly what happened. I didn't know I
25 would have to come here and verbatim
26 discuss what I've done with everything. Tc
27 the best of my recollection, yes.
48
1 Q. You're the primary plaintiff in
2 this suit and you didn't anticipate having
3 to come here?
4 A. I've never done this before. I
5 don't go to Court that often. I'm not an
6 attorney.
7 Q. Before you swore and took an oath
8. July 2, 1987 that you would be irreparably
9 harmed if the Registrar of Voters were
10 allowed to conduct the canvass or purge
11 your voter registration rolls at this time,
12 did you even bother to check to see if
13 yours was one of the possible names that
14 might possibly be removed from the voter
15 rolls?
16 A. I didn't know. That's why I was
17 confused, in the same confusion that
18 thousands of other voters have in their
19 minds. I was confused as to the status of
20 my registration based upon a canvass of the
21 9th ward. And just the mention of that
22 alarms me and it makes me feel that there's
23 a possibility that I can be irreparably
24 harmed by the efforts of the Registrar of
25 Voters. And that's what we're trying to
26 say.
27 Q. Before you took time to swear
d
1 under oath that you would be irreparably
2 harmed, did you bother to inquire of the
3 Registrar of Voter to see if your name was
4 among those that might possibly be purged.
5 MR. MORIAL: I'm going to
6 object. He just asked that question in a
7 slightly different form.
8 THE COURT: I don't think he
9 asked about inquiring of the Registrar of
10 Voters; is that what you're saying?
11 MR. HABANS: Yes.
12 THE COURT: He can ask that.
13 THE WITNESS: Well, I did
14 not inquire to the Registrar of Voters
15 Office because I was confused as to the
16 wholesituation and I was, in fact,
17 intimidated by the process that he's
18 understoing. We don't get much cooperation
19 with the Registrar of Voters Office at all.
20
21 Q. What I'm. asking you, sir, was it
22
23
24
25 determine whether or not you were still
26 registered?
27 A. It was very inconvenient. I work
EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
too inconvenient for you to go to the
Registrars Office here in City Hall and ask
one of the counter clerks to please
cn
1 from 8:00 to 5:00. It's very difficult for
2 me to get to City Hall. Point number two,
3 there's an antagonistic type of attitude
4 that is not conducive to me going there
5 getting information. And thirdly, the
6 whole purging system intimidates and
7 confuses not only me but a lot of people
8 that I'm associated with and that's why
9 there's a concern brought here.
10 MR. HABANS: That's all I
11 have. Thank you.
12 THE COURT: Let me ask you a
13 question.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 THE COURT: You understand
16 that the purging is done in accordance with
17 a mandate from the legislature, don't you?
18 THE WITNESS: I understand
19 that the legislature mandates the purging
20 to be done in January, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Okay. All
22 right. You got anything else?
23 MR. MORIAL: No, Your Honor.
24
25
26
27
* * * * * * * * * *
a 1
S
1 MR. MORIAL: The Honorable
2 Dorothy Taylor.
3 MR. MILNER: I'd like to
4 enter my name in the record for Ms. Taylor.
5 I'm Thomas Milner.
6 COUNCILWOMAN DOROTHY TAYLOR,
7 City Hall, 1300 Perdido Street, New
8 Orleans, Louisiana 70112, on Monday, July
9 20, 1987, after having been first duly
10 sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth,
11 and nothing but the truth, was examined and
12 testified as follows:
13 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
14 Q. Good morning.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. For the record, your business
17 address?
18 A. City Hall, 1300 Perdido.
• 19 Q. And you currently hold the
20 position of Council President?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Could you tell the Court some of
23 your background with voter registration and
24 voter education issues over the past 25
25 years?
26 A. Yes, sir. Approximately maybe 38
27 years ago I became involved with the
52
V.
•
1 Louisiana League of Good Government first
2 by becoming a registered voter and by
3 assisting others to become registered
4 voters, mainly in the Guste high-rise where
5 the elderly were housed. Later years I
6 became involved with the Louisiana -- what
7 is it, the League of Women Voters where I
8 participated as a volunteer worker also in
9 getting other persons registered. I have
10 worked with numerous community
11 organizations over the years, sponsored
12 voter registration drives. As a former
13 State Representative I also initiated
14 drives and encouraged other people to
15 become registered voters.
16 Q. Since assuming your position on
17 the City council, have you continued your
18 involvement with voter registration
19 activitic0
20 A. Yes, sir, I have, in the
21 community and likewise as a City Council
22 member I had the opportunity to be more
23 directly involved and do some of the things
24 that I felt should be occurring to allow
25 persons to become registered voters. We
26 put together -- I should say I initiated
27 probably the first comprehensive voter
53
• "ZZY
1 registration plan for the City of New
2 Orleans after I became a member of the City
3 Council.
4
6
Q. And that was last year?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. Mrs. Taylor, you're familiar with
7 the voter , canvass which is the subject of
8 - this lawsuit?
9 A. Yes, I am.
10 Q. And did there come a time when
11 the City Council passed a resolution
12 relative to that particular voter canvass?
13 A. Yes, there was.
14 Q. I'm going to show you what I'm
15 going to mark as P-1 for purposes of
16 identification, ask you to review that
17 particular document. And Mrs.(TA/lor,
18 you're familiar with that document arid that
19 document is a resolution of the New Orleans
20 City Council adopted unanimously?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. And by adopting that resolution,
23 what did the City Council as a legislative
24 body and as the body that provides funds to
25 the voter registration office request the
26 Registrar to do?
27 A. I'm trying to find it directly
54
W.)
•
2
3
here, but I can recall we requested that he
delay the purge until after the November
election.
4 Q. Was there a reason that the
5 Council requested that the purge be delayed
6 until after the November election?
7 A. Yes, sir. We had great concern
8 about the voters of this city and the
9 problems that had been caused in 1986 with
10 the Republican purging. In fact, many of
11 us had telephone calls making inquires in
12 terms of why this was happening and what it
13 was. Last year, May 7th 1987, 11,000 names
14 were listed in the paper of potential
15 people who would be purged if they had not
16 responded. Then that was thrown out of the
17 court. All of this was mass confusion
18 among many people of this city and calls
19 came in, and we felt and the best interest
20 of the citizens of this city that the purge
21 should occur after the election whereby it
22 would not cause the same type of confusion
23 as the Republican purge had projected the
24 year prior. We certainly realize and
25 understand the necessity of a clean roll
26 and we support it. We realize that this
27 purge should have happened in January which
55
'-•td
2
3
we would not have had any objections to it
at all because it was not prior to a
general election.
4 Q. You've testified that certain
5 confusion results with these types of
6 canvasses if they take place near an.
7 election. Based on your experience and
8 based on your reactions you've received
9 from your constituents, could you expound a
-10 little bit more on the type of confusion?
11 A. Yes. When you work with I should
12 say poor people, persons in many instances
13 who have not completed high school
14 education, it is very difficult for them to
15 understand all of the details that relates
16 to the purging system. When cards are
17 received pris)r to the election it can cause
18 one to misunderstand the purpose of the
19 card which in some cases many people that I
20 know just ignore it completely and don't
21 even bother to go and register for fear
22 that their names are not even listed on the
23 registered books. I served as a
24 commissioner for many elections maybe
25 better than 10 years ago and there were
26 many people that I saw after in election
27 and asked why you did not come to vote and
k-9
1 they said things, I thought my name had
2 been removed because I was told they were
3 purging the rolls. And there was just
4 questions that didn't seem to make much
5 sense that people didn't seem to understand
6 what it was all about.
7 Q. Uh-huh (affirmative). You
8 indicated that you understand that the law
9 mandates that these purges take place in
10 January, correct?
11 A. That's my understanding, yes.
12 Q. And to the best of your
13 knowledge, did any purge take place in
14 January?
15 A. Not to my knowledge.
16 Q. Mr's. Taylor, you've been very
17 involved in voter registration issues in
18 this city?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Has that included maintaining
21 some contact with Mr. Papale on an ongoing
22 basis?
23 A. Yes. I would think maybe the
24 last 15, 20 years. I'm unsure. But it's
25 been quite a number of years.
26 Q. Since you've been on the City
27 Council have you worked or have been in
57
1 more direct official communication with his
2 office?
3 A. Well, by virtue of my position
4 and my interest in voter registration I
5 sent for him to make him aware of what my
6 plans were as it relates to the
7 comprehensive voter registration plan. So
8 we have had numerous meetings about the
9 comprehensive plan.
10 Q. At any time did Mr. Papale
11 mention to you that there would be a
12 problem with conducting the canvass in
13 January?
14 A. No, sir, he did .not.
15 Q. And at any time did you receive
16 any communication from him with regard to
17 his problems in conducting the canvass in
18 January?
19 A. No, sir. I do not recall any
20 communication.
21 Q. Do you know if any communications
22 were directed to the City Council?
23 A. I'm not aware of any.
24 Q. Mrs. Taylor, the city provides
25 office space for the Registrar of Voter,
26 correct?
27 A. That's my understanding, yes.
Q
%.51 ••••:.;:)
•
1 Q. And you're aware that the city
2 made provisions for Mr. Papale to move his
3 office from Perdido Street to City Hall?
4
5
A. That is correct.
Q. And at any time -did anyone, Mr.
6 Papale, someone from the Department of
7 Finance of the CAO Office, mention to you
8. that due to this move there would be some
9 problem with doing some things that the law
10 required?
11 A. No, sir, no one mentioned that to
12 me prior to the moving.
13 THE COURT: Do you know
14 whether the city made those provisions for
15 him to move?
16 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I
17 cannot answer—that.
18 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
19 Q. So you received no communication
20 with regard --
21 A. No, sir, I did not.
22 Q. Had you received some
23 communication with regard to the problems
24 involved with the move, might the Council
25 have taken some action?
26 MR. HABANS: Objection.
27 Calls for conjecture.
59
5-47' V4.1, 5.0
•
1 THE COURT: It's
2 speculative. Objection sustained.
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
4 Q. Mrs. Taylor, given the
5 circumstances involving the current
6 canvass, I'd like you to just draw on your
7 experience in your involvement in voter
8 registration and voter education both as a
9 public official and as a private citizen
10 and again tell me what the timing of these
11 activities has to do with their affect on
12 the voting public?
13 A. Sir, again, I would like to
14 emphasize that I certainly feel that the
15 purging prior to the general election would
16 have more of a negative impact than if it -
17 was taken after the November, or after any
18 election I should say. Again, I was not
19 privileged to the information that the
20 purge would not occur , in January. Had that
21 information been shared with my office, -I
22 certainly would have taken the necessary
23 steps to make sure that the purge would
24 have occurred as soon after January as
25 possible.
26 Q. You recall the budget hearings
27 which took place on the budget of the
kJ'
•
1 Office of the Registrar of Voters in
2 November?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4
6
7
8
9
10
Q. At that time did Mr. Papale or
anyone from his office indicate to the
Council that there would be any problems
with conducting his ministerial duties due
to the requirements that the city was
placing on him to move?
A. Sir, I'm not a member of the
11 three-member budget committee. But when
12 the Registrar of Voters' budget came before
13 the Council as a whole, that information
14 was not given.
15 Q. And did, in fact, the City
Council provide monies for Mr. Papale to
17 conduct all his statutory duties?
?0) A. Yes, sir. What we did after
initiated the comprehensive voter
AO registration plan and in talking with Mr.
21 Papale his only concern to me at that time
22 was the lack of funds to implement the
23 voter registration plan. Later I was able
24 to get the support of the other council
25 members and we put an additional $10,000-
26 into his budget to make sure he was able to
27 implement that comprehensive voter
61
registration plan.
2 Q. Mrs. Taylor, you are familiar
3 with an Attorney General's opinion
4 regarding this particular canvass?
5 A. I am familiar with an opinion.
6 I'm not sure which one.you're referring to.
7 Q. Do you know whether or not any
8 Attorney General's opinion was requested by
9 Mr. Papale when he decided that he couldn't
10 conduct the purge when the law said he
11 should?
12 A. I'm not aware of any.
13 Q. Mrs. Taylor, are you familiar.
14 with the fact that this canvass is targeted
15 at the 8th and 9th wards?
16 A. I had heard it was, yes
17 Q. And you're familiar with the
18 demographics of thos!le wards generally?
19 A. Generally speaking, yes.
20 Q. And could you tell the Court
21 somewhat about the racial breakdown and the
22 demographics of the 9th ward?
23 A. I do not know the percentage, but
24 just from a general observation the 9th
25 ward is predominantly a black ward. There
26 are more residents who are black than there
27 are any other nationalities.
62
ite
•
1 MR. MORIAL: I have no
2 further questions at this time, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Cross, Mr.
4 Habans?
5 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
6 Q. Thank you. Good morning.
7 A. Good morning, sir.
8 - Q. Mrs. Taylor, are you familiar
9 with correspondence between or among the
10 Registrar's Office and Mr. Kirt Steiner,
11 the CAO and the Office of Property
12 Management and all the other people that
13 were involved in Mr. Papale's move, that
14 is, from Perdido street to City Hall?
15 A. No, sir, I'm not.
16 Q. You're not aware that Mr. Papale
17 asked the city administration to delay his
18 move because of the chaos and difficulty
19 that it would create in connection with his
20 discharging his duties?
21 A. No, sir, I'm not.
22 Q. You didn't get any copies of
23 those letters?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. But, in fact, the City Council
26 does not supervise the Registrar's Office,
27 does it?
63
•
1 A. We don't necessarily supervise
2 the Registrar's Office. If I'm correct, •by
3 mandate of the legislature we are to fund a
4 specific amount -- I don't know in terms of
5 what proportion of the salaries. And we
6 are to provide space and the other expenses
7 incurred in the Registrar's Office. So
8 based on the financial obligation we have
9 to the Registrar's Office, we certainly
10 feel it is within our right and our duty to
11 oversee the expenditures within that
12 office.
13 Q. Now, from the standpoint of the
14 Registrar himself for his office, do you
15
16 A. Yes, funded partially by city -
17 the City Council -- I should say the city
18 of New Orleans, not the council.
19 Q. All right. And the funding is
20 required by statute in Title 18 of the
21 revised statute?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. And as you point out, it does lay
24 out formula for the funding of certain
25 Registrars based on population and so on?
26 A. That's correct.
27 Q. And therefore you're under a
acknowledge that he is a state agency?
•••
1 mandate of the revised statute or the city
2 is, of course, and you're certainly an
3 executive of it as a member of City
4 Council. The city is mandated by law to
5 fund part of the Registrar's Office?
6
7
A. Yes, a portion of it.
Q. However, can you point to any
8 authority other than that which you believe
9 is inherent in the right to oversee that it
10 comes with financing? Can you point to any
11 law regulation or otherwise that would
12 provide or furnish to the City Council the
13 " authority to tell the Registrar, state
14 agency, that he should not comply with the
15 law at the time?
16 MR. MILNER: Objection, Your
17 Honor. That calls for conclusion of law.
18 THE COURT: Objection
19 sustained.
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
21 Q. Mrs. Taylor, after receiving the
22 resolution of the City Council that you've
23 identified already, and that was Resolution
24 R-87-94, was it not?
25 A. Yes, sir, it is.
26 Q. Dated June 4, 1987?
27 A. That is correct.
65
'62)
1 Q. After sending this resolution to
2 Mr. Papale, are you aware of the fact that
3 Mr. Papale submitted that to the Attorney
4 General, his legal advisor, as provided for
5 by Revised Statute 18:64?
6 A. Yes, I am aware that he sent the
7 letter to the Attorney General.
8 Q. Upon receiving an opinion from
9 the Attorney General, is it not true that
10 Mr. Papale sent a report to you, the
11 Council, telling you that he was unable to
12 comply with the resolution because the
13 Attorney General had told him he may not
14 delay in going forward with his canvassing?
15 A. He sent me a copy of the Attorney
16 General's response.
17 Q. And is it fair to say that you
18 were not in agreement with that response?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. You preferred to have the canvass
* 21 go forward after the November election; is
22 that right?
23 A. The City Council had passed a
24 resolution unanimously that it happen. So
25 I was supportive of the City Council's
26 action.
27 Q. Now, with respect to your
66
';":•:;3 'YJ
1 personal belief that you've expressed here,
2 ma'am, that it would be better to wait
3 until after the November election, were you
4 aware of the fact that there was an
5 election January 17th, 1987 involving
6 propositions?
7 A. At this time I would have to say
8 no I was not aware. Probably then I was.
9 But now I can't recall that date.
10 Q. And your concern about canvassing
11 is a concern that extends to any election;
12 isn't that true?
13 A. Sir, what the concern is, there
14 is great concern that the Republican party
15 is trying to control the Registrar's
16 Office, and a purge prior to a general
17 4lection would purge a majority of black
18 People who are Democrats which certainly
19 4111 give the opportunity for more
20 Republicans who are registered voters to
21 cast pheir vote in lieu of black Democrats
22 voting.
23 Q. Are you aware of the fact that
24 the Registrar canvassed one-fourth of the
25 precincts in the City of New Orleans for
26 the past number of years, back since the
27 Election Code was implemented?
67
•
1 A. I'm not aware. I would assume
2 that it happened. I'm not aware that it
3 did.
4 Q. Do you know that the Registrar's
5 Office purged a quarter of the precincts
6 the year before this year, that is, before
7 1987 when Wards 8 and 9 came up? Are you
8 - aware of the fact that the Registrar's
9 Office canvassed one-fourth of the
10 precincts other than and not including 8
11 and 9 last year?
12 A. Was that prior to the Republican
13 purge that you're referring to?
14 Q. Ma'am, I'm not referring to the
15 Republican purge. You seem to be referring
16 A. I'm not aware.
17 Q. I'm referring to the Registrar's
18 annual duties to canvass.
19 A. I'm not aware of that:
20 Q. Are you aware that it had been
21 four years since the Registrar's Office •
22 performed its legal obligation to purge
23 Wards 8 and 9 and this was why Wards 8 and
24 9 came up?
25 A. I'm not aware of that. All I'm
26 aware of is that a purge was to take place
27 in January, and it didn't, and all of the
68
) 11)
1 months have passed by and now it's
2 scheduled prior to a general election.
3 Q. You've expressed concern and
4 interest of the possible confusion of
5 registered voters thinking they were not on
the rolls if they received a card. Do you
7 have any concern, Mrs. Taylor, that people
8 who are not registered voters may return to
9 a ward where they don't live and may cast
10 votes that dilute the actual registered
11 voters in those wards?
12 A. I think my statement earlier in
13 terms of support.for*a.cl:ean.roll
14 • emphasizes my *concern that that does not
15 happen.
16 Q. And you recognize that's a'
17 possibility if the Registrar doesn't
18 canvass at all?
19 A. Certainly. No where did I make
20 any statement suggesting that he not
21 canvass at all. I said the timing is not
22 in the best interest of the citizens of
23 this city.
24 Q. That's a determination made by
25 you and the other members of the council;
' 26 is that correct?
27 A. I would think so.
69
1 MR. HABANS: That's all I
2 have. Thank you.
3 THE COURT: Let me ask you a
4 question.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
6 THE COURT: If the canvass
7 had taken place in January, you'd have had
8 no objection to it?
9 THE WITNESS: Well, the law
10 mandates it to happen.
11 THE COURT: You wouldn't
12 oppose that?
13 THE WITNESS: Because the
14 law had mandated. I would have to.
15 THE COURT: In your opinion,
16 do you think that canvass could have been
17 completed in January?
18 THE WITNESS: I cannot
19 answer that.
20 THE COURT: Okay. Thank
21 you.
22 MR. MORIAL: No further
23 questions, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Thank you, Mrs.
25 Taylor.
26 MR. MILNER: May Ms. Taylor
27 be excused?
f.;734'
•
1 THE COURT: Yes.
MR. MORIAL: I'd like to
3 call under the act A. E. Papale.
4 THE COURT: By the way,
5 since we have no jury, anybody that wants
6 to sit in the jury box, you're welcomed to
7 sit up here.
8 A. E. PAPALE, Rm. 1W12, City
9 Hall, 1300 Perdido, New Orleans,
10 Louisiana, 70112, on Monday, July 20,
11 1987, after having been first duly sworn to
12 tell the truth, the whole truth, and
13 nothing but the truth, was examined and
14 testified as follows:
15 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
16 Q. Good morning, sir.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. Again, for the recor4, your name,
19 your title, and your business _address.
20 A. I go under the name of A. E.
21 Papale. And my business address is Room
22 1W12, City Hall, 1300 Perdido Street.
23 Q. Mr. Papale, you're the Registrar
24 of Voter for the Parish of Orleans?
25 A. Right now, yes.
26 Q. And in connection with your
27 duties as Registrar of Voters, that
71
1 includes implementing various provisions of
2 Title 18 of the Election Code?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And you've been Registrar for
5 what, 17 years?
6 A. Over 17 years.
7 Q. Over 17 years. I want to direct
8 your attention to the issue which is the
9 subject .of this lawsuit. The law requires
10 you to conduct and has required you to
11 conduct certain canvasses of certain
12 precincts, over one-fourth of the
13 precincts, each particular year, correct? •
14 A. Since the Election Code, yes.
15 Q. And when was that?
16 A. '74.
17 Q. 1974. And the Election Code is
18 always subject to various changes by the
19 legislature?
20 A. Every year they discuss some
21 amendments. Some of them pass, some don't.
22 Q. And those amendments have been
23 part of an effort, would you agree, by the
24 legislature to tighten up and reform and
25 address some of the problems which have
26 been inherent in the voter registration
27 system?
1 A. Yes. I've sponsored many of
2 those reforms myself.
3 Q. And over the years there have
4 been changes in the way canvasses ought to
5 take place, correct?
6 A. A few.
7 Q. How do you keep up with what goes
8- on in the legislature?
9 A. We have all kinds of ways.
10 Commissioner of Elections Office sends us
11 reports, State Board of Supervisor of
12 Elections, Secretary of States Office, any
13 number of publications that are put out by
14 various state and local and other
15 officials.
16 Q. You're the one in your office
17 who's principally responsible for keeping
18 up with changes in the law?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. So you don't have a e,puty
21 assigned to the legislature?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And you yourself don't have
24 someone who monitors the activities of the
25 legislature like some of the other
26 Registrars do?
27 A. Sir, I've been on the Legislative
1 Committee of the Registrar of Voters
2 Association for many, many years. And I
3 have participated many times. Of recent
4 years I have not been as active in the
5 legislative process as in years gone by.
6 One of the problems that I'm confronted
7 with is that much of the legislation that
8 is sponsored and submitted to the House and
9 Governmental Affairs Committee are
10 proposals to liberalize the system of voter
11 registration. Many of these bills are
12 repetitive. And if you've testified once,
13 that's enough on . that.
14
15 are familiar with the fact that in the
16 legislature, although the subject of a
17 particular bill may be one thing, through
18 the process amendments are added,
19 amendments are deleted, and there are
20 conference committees on that the form in
21 which legislation is introduced may not
22 necessarily be the form in which it is
23 eventually disposed upon by the
24 legislature?
25 A. Sir, ever since we've been on the
26 statewide computer voter registration -
27
Q. Let me ask you something: You
MM.
THE COURT: Let him answer
74
1 the question. You asked him a question.
2 Let him answer it. Go ahead.
3 THE WITNESS: Ever since we
4 have been on this state voter computer
5 registration, the system has developed
6 whereby we receive bulletins not only from
7 our legislative committee chairman, but
8 from the president of the association and
9 many times from the Commission of
10 Elections. We are kept up-to-date on all
11 the proposed changes. And we can, if we
12 want to, call our local representative to
13 push for or against such legislation. I
14 think that I am pretty well informed almost
15 on a daily basis of what goes on with
16 regard to my business which is voter
17 registration and canvassing. Both are
18 mandated and I have to follow the law. And
19 have never violated the law that I know
20 since I've been Registrar of Voter.
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
22 Q. Sir, I just want to respond to
23 your statement. You are familiar with
24 proceedings in Civil District Court for the
25 Parish of Orleans which took place in May
26 of this year, are you not?
27 A. Yes, sir.
1 Q. And you are familiar with the
2 fact that this same organization challenged
3 a newspaper advertisement that your office
4 had placed in the newspaper correct?
5
6
A. Yes.
Q. Let me ask a follow-up question:
7 And you are familiar with the fact that the
8 Court declared at that particular point and
9 time that that ad was null void and
10 illegal?
11 A. That was not intentional.
12 Q. But sir, I just want to ask you
13 this: You don't disagree with me that that
14 was what the Court ruled?
15 A. There's some very high elected
16 officials that make mistakes, and I made a
17 mistake.
18 Q. I understand. You indicated to
19 me what your position is, but you don't
20 disagree with what the Court ruled.
21 THE COURT: I think he
22 answered that. He said he made a mistake.
23 •The Court ruled against him.
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
25 Q. Okay. Sir, you've indicated that
26 you keep up with various legislation. Are
27 you familiar with additional requirements
1 placed on canvassing by the legislature in
2 1986?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. •Could you tell me what they were?
5 A. Changed Section 192 which says
6 that Registrars shall conduct canvass of
7 one-fourth of the precinct in the month of
8 January. But it retained every bit of the
9 language that was in the law already which
10 states also mandatorily that the Registrar
11 of Voters has to canvass one-fourth of the
12 precincts annually so that in the system
13 one of the precincts .in the parish will be
14 canvassed at least once every four years.
15 Now, if the mandate of January is
16 compulsory, that destroys the rest f the
17 section.
18 Q. Okay, sir. Let me ask you this:
19 You've indicated to me and you are aware of
20 the fact that the Registrar of Voters
21 Organization supported this change in the
22 law and --
23 A. I don't know that they did.
24 Q. Excuse me?
25 A. Not to my knowledge.
26 Q. Well, I'm telling you that they
27 did. You wouldn't disagree with that,
1 would you?
2 A. I could see where they would.
3 There is some merit to that amendment.
4 Q. What is the merit to that
5 amendment?
6 A. I would say that the merit to
7 that amendment is the fact that the
8- Commissioner of Election publishes
9 quarterly statistics on voter registration
10 in all the parishes and it's a nice thing
11 for him to get the canvasses done in
12 January because then you won't have so much
13 disparagement in voter registration. A
14 parish that canvasses, registration goes
15 down. A parish that doesn't canvass,
16 registration goes up. And it's nice to
17 keep something uniformed. But I say when
18 you can do it, that's fine. When you can
19 do it, you can do it. Act of God, moving
20 your office, all kinds of intervening
21 things.
22 Q. Mr. Papale, you've testified to
23 one aspect of the merit of the change in
24 the law. Isn't so that an additional
25 reason the legislature changed the law was
26 to provide for uniformity among Registrars
27 and to protect Registrars from criticism
1 surrounding purges which take place near a
2 major election?
3 A. I'm not familiar with that, and
4 are you quoting from something?
5 Q. Excuse me?
6 A. You're quoting from something?
7 Q. Sir, I think you're on the stand.
8 THE COURT: He's just asking
9 you the question, that's all.
10 THE WITNESS: Okay.
11 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
12 Q. You do agree or disagree with
13 that? That that's part of the reason.
14 A. I would say I'm neutral on that.
15 I don't know whether that was a good
16 amendment or not.
17 Q. But you do know that .the law was
18 changed?
19 A. I do know.
20 Q. And the language that xas added
21 was in January the Registrar of Voters
22 shall annually -- shall annually canvass
23 the names of the registrant in one-fourth
24 of the precincts in the parish?
25 A. That's right.
26 Q. Would you like to refer to Act
27 669?
1 A. I'm familiar with that.
2 Q. The canvass wasn't done in
3 January?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And why wasn't the canvass done
6 in January?
7 A. I have documentary evidence.
8 Q. Do you want to refer to the
9 documents?
10 A. Sure.
11 Q. Okay. Mr. Habans, the witness
12 wants his documents now. Mr. Habans has
13 marked these. I'm going to mark them in
14 glob° at this time without introducing them
15 as'-
1.6 MR. HABANS: You can use the
17 number I put on them. I've used
18
19 MR. MORIAL: Let me mark
20 them P-2 so I can keep track.
21 THE COURT: You're going.to
22 refer to those things individually?
23 MR. MORIAL: Yes, Your
24 Honor.
25 THE COURT: Then you don't
26 mark them in globo. Mark them
27 individually.
Defendant's 7.
1 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
2 Q. The Court beg me to take my time
3 and I'm going to move so I can stand next
4 to Mr. Papale. Sir, when did your office
5 move?
.6 A. Office moved on December 29th and
7 30th of '86.
8 Q. So as of January 1 you were in
9 your new office?
10 A. I wish you had seen my new
11 office. It was chaotic. Everything was
12 dumped in there.
13 Q. But you were in it?
14 A. I was in it, but we couldn't do *
15 any work.
16 Q. When could you begin doing work?
1.7 A. We couldn't be doing anything on
18 the canviss until March the 24th when we
19 finally vere connected with our voter
20 computer service, because you can't canvass
21 without the computers.
22 Q. Mr. Papale, so you didn't
23 begin -- you didn't commence the canvass
24 until March, correct?
25 A. We sent for cards in January.
26 Q. Uh-huh (affirmative).
27 A. But because of the computer
81
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
breakdown, because of the chaotic system,
because we had an election on January the
17th, we had a Temporary Restraining Order,
and all of the other things that I
enumerate in these documents that made it
physically impossible for us to complete
the canvass in January.
8 Q. m. Papale, you were aware that
9 the law had changed, correct, to require
10 that the canvass take place in January?
11 A. I have to say yes, Your Honor,
12 but I should be able to explain.
13 _THE COURT: You have a right
14 to explain.
15 THE WITNESS: That it was
16 physically impossible. And who made it
17 impossible? The city administration.
18 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
19 Q. The law had changed, corret?
20 What acts did your office take before
21 January to prepare for the canvass?
22 A. What acts did I take?
23 Q. Did your office take?
24 THE COURT: You mean when he
25 was in his old office?
26 MR. MORIAL: Yes, Your
27 Honor.
1 THE COURT: Ask him that
2 then.
3 THE WITNESS: To prepare to
4 conduct the canvass? I was satisfied that
5 we would be able to conduct the canvass and
6 if we could start it in January, even if we
7 didn't complete it in January, the canvass
8- would be okay.
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
10 Q. When did you form that opinion?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Was it in December?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Was it in November?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. You have no idea?
17 A. All I know is that I had a
18 canvass to take care of and in due course I
19 would take care of it.
20 Q. Now, with the change in the law,
21 would it have been difficult for your
22 office to order the canvass cards in
23 advance of January from the Commissioner of
24 Elections?
25 A. I suppose I could.
26 Q. But you didn't?
. 27 A. But I didn't. But I did - ••=1,
1 Q. What --
2 MR. HABANS: Excuse me.
3 THE COURT: Let him finish.
4 THE WITNESS: I did ask for
5 them in January.
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
7 Q. Do you have the correspondence
8 you're referring to where you requested
9 those cards, sir?
10 A. I think another witness could
11 testify to that.
12 Q. Who is that?
13 A. Ms. •Nagel.
14 Q. Does she have that
15 correspondence? Why don't you take your
16 time and look through that correspondence.
17 MR. HABANS: I could save
18 you some time. It's not in that. I'm not
19 sure there is a document. I think there
20 was a telephone call. I'm trying to be
21 helpful.
22 THE WITNESS: On January the
23 16th, 1987, Ms. Julie Nagel called for the
24 first canvass notice cards for Wards 8 and
25 9 from the Commissioner of Elections
26 Department.
27 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
1
2
3
4
5
Q. Can I see that?
A. Sure.
Q. Did you prepare that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In preparation for this
6 particular lawsuit?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. What I really want to focus on,
9 Mr. Papale, and you've testified to the
10 problems that the city was having at that
11 time. Nonetheless your office was able •to
12 conduct absentee voting as well as those
13 - duties required of you for the January 17th
14 special election, correct? There was no
15 problem with that?
16 A. If you look at this
17 correspondence you'll see how diligent I
18 was in alerting city fathers that unle36
19 they made some concessions we wouldn't have
20 had .a January 17th election.
21 Q. But nowhere in that
22 correspondence do you mention that there
23 would be any problem with complying with
24 the statutory requirement that the canvass
25 be conducted in January?
26 A. My answer to that is that you
27 have priorities. You have to take care of
1 the things that you've got to do now. And
2 the law permits you to wait for the next
3 step in the operation of your office. And
4 I felt that if the city had gone ahead and
5 dismantled Room 1E01 in City Hall before I
6 stopped them, we couldn't have conducted
7 the January 17th election, we couldn't have
8 had absentee voting and we couldn't have
9 posted the books, because we happened to
10 have two computers hooked up to the state
11 computer registration system which made it
12 possible for us to keep a little bit
13 current with all the changes, party
14 affiliation, residence, changes of name,
15 and all the other things that we have to do
16 in that office.
11 Q. We understand that there are some
18 responsibilities that go along with your
19 office. Now, where in the law -- I'm a
20 little bit confused -- does it give you the
21 right to prioritize and postpone the
22 canvass?
23 A. I didn't say there was any law.
24 In this correspondence you will find a
25 letter to Irma Dixon, the Director of
26 Property Management, which tells her how
27 shocked I was that we were having to move
1 on December 29th and 30th and all of the
2 problems that would take place if they went
3 ahead with that. And it was through my
4 efforts that Mr. Serpass authorized me to
5 postpone until after we moved, postpone the
6 moving in order for me to conduct a general
7 election of November the 4th. But they
8 refused to postpone the moving until after
9 the election of January the 17th.
10 Q. But nowhere in any of that
11 correspondence did you mention the canvass,
12 did you?
13 A. The canvass is something --
14 Q. 'Mr. Papale, the only thing I'm
15 going to ask you is when I ask you
16 questions I think it would simplify things
17 if you'd answer yes or no and explain.
18 A. I never did it before and I don't
19 think under the law I've got to do it now.
20 Q. Do what?
21 A. We're a state agency. We do what
22 the law says. If we violated the law, so
23 be it. I'll take the consequences. But I
24 don't think the law is that rigid. I think
25 there's another interpretation of that law
26 which will clearly indicate that I have two
27 mandates. One to do it in January; the
1 other to do it within the year.
2 THE COURT: Let me ask you
3 Mr. Papale, there were two elections in
4 January?
5 THE WITNESS: One.
6 THE COURT: January 4th?
7 THE WITNESS: January 17th.
8 THE COURT: That was the
9 general election?
10 THE WITNESS: No. That was
11 the proposition.
12 THE COURT: Did you ask the
13 city to delay moving until past that
14 election?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
16
17 you?
18 THE WITNESS: They refused
19 it.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
THE COURT: And they refused
22 Q. Mr. Papale
23 A. They did grant the delay for the
24 November 4th general election of '86.
25 Q. So you had asked for them to
26 delay your move once before?
27 A. Yes.
1
2
3
Q. And they agreed?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long did you know that you
4 were going to be required to move?
5 A. It all started way back in my
6 letter to Mr. Steiner, the Chief
7 Administrative Officer, when I called his
8 attention •to the fact that my office was to
9 be relocated and asking postponement
10 information after the November 4th, 1986,
11 THE COURT: What date was
12 that letter?
, 13 THE WITNESS: May 20th. On
14 June the 12th, 1986 I dispatched a letter
15 to the CAO advising him that the
16 Commissioner of Elections needed at least
17 60 days notice in order to hook up the
18 terminals to the statewide computer
19 network. In a letter I received from Mr.
20 Frank R. Serpass, Assistant Chief
21 Administrative Officer, stating that my.
22 request for a postponement until the
23 November 4th election was reasonable and it
24 was granted. On June the 23rd I dispatched
25 a letter from the CAO responding to my
26 letter of June the 12th alerting Mr.
27 Serpass and Irma Dixon, Director of
Property Management, to respond to me
2 promptly and to assure me of no
3 interruption of services. On June the 25th
4 a letter to Mr. Serpass thanking him for
5 his letter of June 17th approving
6 postponement until after the November 4th,
7 1986 election. December the 11th a letter
8 from Ms. Dixon stating that the office was
9 being moved to City Hall on December 29th
10 and 30th, no if, ands or buts. On December
11 12th a notice from Mr. Charles Shallats,
12 Director of Data Processing, from.the
13 Commissioner Elections Office giving
14 reasons why it was impossible for him to
15 hook up the data circuits for January 1st,
16 1987. December 12t 41, my letter to Ms.
17 Dixon expressing shpck at timing in view of
18 the proposition eleztion scheduled for
19 January 17th, 1987 December the 12th,
20 letter from Ms. Dixon stating time and
21 place of moving as of December the 15th,
22 1986. Letter to Mr. Fawler stating that my
23 request for postponing the January 17th
24 election had been denied. Letter December
25 the 15th to Ms. Dixon relating to the
26 dismantling and cost of relocating the
27 Lektrievers. December the 17th, letter to
90
1 Mr. Howard Turner, Chief Administrative
2 Officer of the Public Building inviting him
3 as requested by Ms. Dixon to give us some
4 advice regarding the relocation. December
5 31st, letter to Elaine Catril, Public
6 Building Administration, relative to
7 election day telephones which must be
8 installed.
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
10 Q. Mr. Papale, if I could interrupt,
11 because I don't think what you're giving me
12 is responsive to me question. But you've
13 placed that information into the record.
14 What I want to ask you is you knew last
15 June that you'd have to move your office,
16 correct? Yes or no, Mr. Papale?
11 A. It was suggested that we were
18 going to have to move.
19 Q. And you also knew that in June or
20 July the legislature changed the law to
21 require that canvassing take place in
22 January, correct?
23 A. That's possible.
24 Q. Prior to the change in the law
25 Registrars could conduct their canvasses at
26 any time during the year, correct?
27 A. That's correct.
Q. But the law was changed to
2 require that those canvasses take place in
3 January. Did your office do any advanced
4 preparation in light of the change in the
5 law and in light of your constitutional
6 obligation to uphold the law?
7 A. It was physically impossible for
8 us to make plans.
9 Q. . Mr. Papale, could you have
10 ordered the cards from the Commissioner of
11 Elections for Wards 8 and 9 prior to
12 January?
13 A. Yes, but may I explain?
14 THE COURT: Sure you can
15 explain.
16 THE WITNESS: It's very easy
17 to get the canvass cards, which is the
lt initial step. Because when you order
19 canvass cards you get all the canvass
20 cards. But the next step is most
21 difficult, because after you get the
22 canvass cards you have to check those
23 cards. Sometimes they're duplicates.
24 Sometimes the computer misfires. My staff
25 has to go through all of those canvass
26 cards and take care of all of the errors
27 and the mistakes. Now, after that they
92
1
2
3
have to send a card of irregularity. Now
that card of irregularity cannot be
requested until a very thorough study has
4 been made. That study has to be
5 coordinated only with the cards that come
6 back. The cards that don't come back, they
7 are out of the canvass.
8' EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
9 Q. Mr. Papale
10 MR. HABANS: Excuse me. I'm
11 not sure the gentleman is finished his
12 answer.
13 MR. MORIAL: I have this
14 witness under cross-examination.
15 THE COURT: But you asked
16 him a question and he's trying to answer
17 your question.
18 MR. MORIAL: But the
19 questions are .far tha answers are far
20 beyond the scope of my questions.
21 THE COURT: He's got a right
22 to explain any answer to any questions that
23 you ask. And if he feels he wants to
24 explain, I'm going to let him explain.
25 MR. MORIAL: I don't dispute
26 that the Court can allow Mr. Papale to
27 answer the question that I put to him or
1 erplain the answer. But I simply am trying
2 to focus the Court's attention on certain
3 aspects concerning the meat of the issue at
4 hand.
5 THE COURT: I understand
6 what the meat of the issue at hand is.
7 THE WITNESS: And I have to
8 explain the operation of my office in the
9 light of your question. We have to retire
10 all the canvass cards that were delivered
11 and they're out of the canvass. We also
12 get a lot of canvass cards that come back
13 giving the local change of address. Those
14 people are automatically taken out of the
15 canvass. But as far as the cards of
16 irregularity, when we order them before
17
, 18
19
we order them we have to give a serial
number, and we can't give a serial number
until we compare it with the cards that
20 have come back. So if we've got to give a
21 serial number and the computer is broke
22 down, I submit to you how are we going to
23 go to through the next step of our canvass?
24 Our preparation will have been concluded by
25 merely asking for the card of irregularity
26 and every Registrar -
.27 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
1 Q Isn't it a fact that some of
2 these canvass cards didn't go out until
3 March?
4 A. We're talking about the cards of
5 irregularity.
6 Q. When did the canvass cards go '
7 out?
8 A. The canvass cards went out in
9 January. I just stated that.
10 Q. You mailed them in January?
11 A. We requested them in January.
12 Q. Did you mail them in January?
13 A. You don't mail them the same day
14 you request them. You have to shuffle
15 them.
16 Q. When did you mail them?
17 A. It's stated in the record.
18 Q. What record?
19 A. Mailed second notice canvass
20 cards with returnable date May 14th.
21 Q. May 14th?
22 MR. HABANS: No, sir. I
23 believe there's a misunderstanding. The
24 first canvass cards.
25 MR. MORIAL: Excuse me,
26 counsel.
27 MR. HABANS: I thought we
1 were trying to get to the truth here.
2 THE COURT: If he's
3 misunderstanding, straighten him out. I
4 don't want him to say something he doesn't
5 mean.
6
7
8
9 17 on your lis, I think.
10 THE COURT: You testified
11 the canvass cards were requested in
12 January. But when were they mailed?
13
14 witness will give you that date.
15 . THE COURT: So your answer
16 is you don't know the datei
17 THE WITNESS: Offhand I
18 can't see it.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
21 Q. Would there have been any
22 difficulty to order the cards, and I'm
23 asking these questions, Mr. Papale, in
24 light of the change in the law, to order
25 the cards from the Commissioner of
26 Elections in advance of January to have
27 your staff check them in advance of January
MR. HABANS: The question
was date of the mailing of the first
canvass cards, Mr. Papale. It's your Item
THE WITNESS: The next
and to place those canvass cards in the
2 mail on January 1, 1987? What would have
3 been the problem with that?
4 A. Where is anything in the law
5
6 in December? It says I've got to do it in
7
8 Q. Doesn't the law say you're
9 supposed. to conduct it in January?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. You wouldn't disagree that good
12 management means sometimes preparing to do
13 those things that the law requires you to
14 do?
15 MR. HABANS: Objection.
16 This is purely argumentative.
17 THE COURT: Argumentative.
18 Objection stained.
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
20 Q. Did you do any acts in
21 preparation for the January canvass in
22 light of the change in the law?
23 A. We asked for the canvass cards.
24 Canvass cards came back from the
25 Commissioner of Elections Office. My staff
26 worked on those cards diligently and even
27 if we had completed our work immediately we
which says that I have to start a canvass
January.
1 couldn't ask for the card of irregularity
2 because you had to supply a sequence number
3 to the computer system and the computer
4 system was broken down completely until
5 March the 16th.
6 Q. When did it break down?
7 A. The moving started on December
8- the 29th and 30th.
9
10
11
12
13
14
Q. In light of those circumstances,
could you have requested the Commissioner
of Elections to do the cards for you?
There's a- centralized computer list, is
there not, with the names?
A. They can't start until I tell
15 them which cards to send.
16 Q. That's my point. But they could
17 hive sent them if your system was broken?
18 A. We need the computer to give the
19 serial numbers of the cards that we needed,
20 anC we couldn't get that.
21 Q. Isn't the information in Baton
22 Rouge, also? Isn't there a computer system
23 that the legislature mandated?
24 A. The computer system is as good as
25 the parishes that put the stuff in.
26 Q. But the information as to who the
27 registered voters were in Ward 8 and 9,
1 wasn't that already in the computer?
2 A. We got that from the canvass
3 cards. But we can't get the card of
4 irregularity until we pipe in the serial
5 number of the card that we want. It
6 becomes a selective process and not an in
7 globo situation.
8 Q. Mr. Papale, there did come a time
9 when you may have realized for whatever
10 reason that you couldn't complete the
11 canvass in January, correct? There came a
12
13 do it in January?
14
15
16
17 A. City administration, Commissioner
18 of Elections.
19 Q. How did you notifiy the
20 Commissioner of Elections?
21
22 couldn't conduct the canvass until
23
24
_ 25
26
time when you determined that you couldn't
A. I notified everybody that I
couldn't.
Q. Who did you notifiy?
A. I kept telling him that we
Hearsay.
MR. MORIAL: Objection.
MR. HABANS: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You asked him a
27 question. Now you don't want him to give
1 you an answer.
2 MR. HABANS: What Mr. Papale
3 told someone is not hearsay. He's here to
4 be cross-examined.
5 THE COURT: As long as he
6 don't say what the other guy told him. But
7 he can say what he told him.
8 MR. HABANS: Yes, Your
9 Honor.
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
11 Q. Did you direct --
12 MR. HABANS: Excuse me. I'm
13 not --
14 THE COURT: Are you
15 finished?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
18 Q. Did you direct any written
19 correspondence to the Commissioner of
20 Elections regarding your need to postpone?
21 A. I told the Commissioner of
22 Elections that we were being moved.
23 Q. Did you indicate to the
24 Commissioner of Elections that you couldn't
25 conduct the canvass?
26 A. I don't have to tell the
27 Commissioner of Elections I can't conduct
1 the canvass when he knows full well I can't
2 conduct without his computer in operation.
3 Q. So your position is it didn't
4 matter what the law said --
5 MR. HABANS: Objection.
6 Argumentative.
7 THE COURT: It's
8 argumentative.
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
10 Q. Mr. Papale -
13. A. Let the judge decide that.
12 Q. When you determined that the
13 canvass would be postponed, you didn't
14 request an opinion of the Attorney General,
15 your legal advisor, with regard to what you
16 should do in light of this situation, did
17 you?
18 A. It wasn't necessary.
19 Q. Why wasn't it necessary?
20 A. Because he knows the law. I
21 can't do it, I can't do it.
22 Q. But did he know that you couldn't
23 do it in January?
24 A. Of course he did.
25 Q. Based on what, Mr. Papale?
26 A. On all the correspondence I've
27 had with the Commissioner of Elections.
1 Q. Show me what correspondence the
2 Attorney General had in January or
3 February?
4 A. I didn't have to ask the Attorney
5 if I could postpone the election then.
6 Q. But you had to ask the Attorney
7 General whether or not you could postpone
8 the canvass when the City Council
9 unanimously in the spirit of good faith
10 requested that you postpone it until after
11 the election?
12 A. Your Honor, I submit to you that
13 the City Council does not have jurisdiction
14 over --
15 THE COURT: I understand.
16 The City Council passed a resolution and
17 the legislature passed the act. I
18 understand that. And the City Council
19 can't overrule the legislature.
20 THE WITNESS: That': right.
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
22 Q. But you've referred that you
23 allowed yourself to be guided by the
24 Attorney General whose opinions are
25 advisory?
26 A. Who else?
27 Q. By the Attorney General, sir?
1 A. Am I not supposed to rely on an
2 opinion of the Attorney General to try to
3 be on the safe side on a matter?
4 Q. My question is why didn't you
5 . request an opinion of the Attorney General
6 when you determined that you couldn't
7 comply with the statute with regard to what
8 his advice would be?
9
10
11
12
13
A. It wasn't necessary until I got
the council resolution which was ultra
vires.
Q. What happens when you can't
comply? Now, the move you've referenced
14 wasn't a statutory requirement, was it?
15 A. No, but the law --
16 MR. HABANS: Excuse me.
17 Objection, Your Honor.
18 MR. MORIAL: He's answered,
19 Your Honor. He said no.
20 THE COURT: Well, he started
21 to say something else. You started asking
22 another question.
23 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
24 Q. What were going to add to that,
25 Mr. Papale?
26 A. The law says that the City
27 Council has to supply the Registrar of
1 Voters with his main office and all other
2 branch offices, permanent or temporary, and
3 they have to pay the expense. And the
4 office, the main office, shall be in a
5 courthouse or in any other location within
6 reasonable distance from the courthouse.
7 And this has happened once. I was taken
8 out of City Hall and put on 838 Perdido
9 Street. Then out of the clear blue sky
10 they tell us come back, you're coming back.
11 And they ignored all of my correspondence.
12 They wouldn't hire a professional
13 MR. MORIAL: Object to.this
14 testimony, Your Honor, which is
15 self-serving, which is not responsive to
16 the questin. The City is not in
17 litigation with you, Mr. Papale, with
18 regard to -.his issue.
19 THE WITNESS: Technically
20 I'm not either.
21 MR. MORIAL: Your office is.
22 THE WITNESS: Only
23 nominally, because this is a suit between
24 you people and the Attorney General's
25 Office.
26 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
27 Q. Who's you people?
1 A. The plaintiff. And I don't think
2 I have to be pushed this far.
3 Q. Explain what you mean, sir.
4 THE COURT: Let's get to the
5 issue. We'll never get finished. Get back
6 to the issue.
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
8 Q. So your answer is that you did
9 not request an opinion of the Attorney
10 General when you decided to postpone the
11 canvass? Yes or no.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Last year, Mr. Papale, when did
14 you conduct your canvass?
15 A. Is that important?
16 Q. I'm asking you, sir. You're
17 under oath. You're on the stand. This is
18 a court of law.
19 A. I conducted it when it was
20 convenient to do it because it didn't
21 require that I do it in January. I do it
22 in any other time that is most convenient
23 to my office in light of all the other
24 things that my office has to do, including
25 elections, registering the handicapped and
26 conducting absentee voting, and all kinds
27 of other things that I have to do.
2
c:71
1 Q. And that was right before an
2 election, correct?
3 A. There's nothing in the law which
4 says that I don't conduct a canvass before
5 an election. You conduct a canvass at any
6 time you want.
7
8
9
10
11
12
Q. And that goes to the Section 196
challenge, too, correct?
MR. HABANS: Objection to
the form of the question.,
THE COURT: Rephrase your
question, counselor.
. 13 • EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
14 Q. You're saying there's nothing in
15 the law which. directs you not to conduct a
16 canvass near an election, correct?
1.7 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Now, last year's canvass took
19 place after a lawsuit in which you
20 testified, correct?
21 A. May I, Your Honor, say I had .
22 nothing to do with that canvass. That was
23 conducted by the Republicans.
24 Q. Do you recall testifying in the
25 Ninth Judicial District Court for the
26 Parish of Rapides in a proceeding Kathy
27 Long versus James Gremillion?
106
s A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And in that particular proceeding
3 what was at issue was the Republican purge?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. And when the Republican purge
6 began you thought in your mind that the
7 Republican purge was, in fact, legal?
8 A. I didn't make that decision.
9 That decision was made by the Commissioner
10 of Elections Office. Look at the
11 correspondence.
12 Q. But nonetheless it was ultimately
13 decided by a court that for constitutional
14 reasons based on the timing of that
15 particular purge which took place just
16 before a major election, that purge was, in
17 fact, illegal; do you recall that?
18 A. Of curse I recall it, but I had
19 nothing to do with it.
20 Q. I'm not suggesting that you did,
21 Mr. PApale. I'm just asking some
22 questions. No one is suggesting at this
23 point and time. But you did testify that
24 you believed those actions and you believed
25 them in good faith to be legal?
26 A. I was told it was legal.
27 Q. But nonetheless a court of law
1 determined that action was illegal?
2
3
A. That's perfectly all right.
Q. And 30 days later or some 45 days
4 later you commenced a canvass of some wards
5 in New Orleans just before a major
6 election, did you not?
7 A. Maybe so.
Q. Okay. And you thought it was
9 legal?
10 A. Nobody stopped me. It went
11 through, yes.
12 Q. There were no lawsuits filed.
13 However, there was, and you recall because
. 14 you were before the City Council, some
15 criticism by the City Council, correct,
16 regarding the timing?
17 A. Anybody can criticize me. But -as
18 long as I'm doing the law, that's all.
19 Q. You would agree there was some
20 confusion •regarding the timing of that?
21 A. Absolutely none.
22 Q. No confusion?
23 A. None because -- I have to now
24 explain, Your Honor. That the Republican
25 purge is not a purge -- isn't a canvass
26 that is conducted by the Registrar of
27 Voters. It's a challenge by a third party
1 who wants to take some people off the rolls
2 who they contend don't belong there. Now,
3 how do they get the tangible evidence to
4 show that they are entitled to conduct this
5 purge? They send a canvass card not
similar to mine in letter form to all the
7 registrants that they want to reach. When
8 they get those cards back they dump them in
9 the Registrar of Voters Office and said now
10 I've got to follow the procedure under
11 Section 196. When you read 196 you have no
12 alternative but to proceed until somebody
13 stops you. Now, the Court in Rap.ides
14 Parish, whether they had jurisdiction over
15 me or not, they issued a Temporary
16 Restraining Order. And you look at that
17 correspondence I have from Mr. Goffy
18 (phonetic) who was then the Assistant
19 Commissioner of Elections, and he advised
20 us step by step as to what to do in that
21 canvass. The first step was that we had to
22 do it. But finally when the injunction was
23 issued he told the Registrars of this
24 state, including myself, you can stop now,
25 forget this thing as though it never
26 happened. And there was a statement by him
27 that the card that I sent couldn't possibly
1 confuse anybody with the card that they
2 sent.
3 Q. Mr. Papale, .with regard to that
4 particular proceeding, it was unique, was
•
5 it not, that someone, a third party, would
6 come into your office and challenge 12,000
7 voters, correct?
8 A. It was unique, yes, but I'll
9 explain. It was unique only in the fact
10 that it was a massive thing. But on one
11 and one, we had a number of those.
12 Q. And it was unique. And did that
13 uniqueness raise any questions in your.
14 mind?
15 A. Yeah. Look at my letter to
16 Kendall Vick. It 6s in your file.
17 Q. You wrote a letter to Kendall
18 Vick at that point and time?
19 A. Sure.
20 Q. Do you 9aave that letter?
21 A. It's one you subpoenaed. That
22 was a nightmare I didn't want.
23 Q. But the letter to Kendall Vick
24 refers to a request, a public records
25 request, that was made, correct?
26 A. Yeah.
27 Q. But you didn't ask the Attorney
1 General at that particular point and time
2 for advisory opinion with regard to whether
3 or not you could go forward with
4 unprecedented third party efforts at
5 challenging the qualifications of 12,000
6 voters in Orleans Parish 30 days before an
7 election?
8
9
10
11
12
A. Let me explain.
Q. Let me ask you one thing: Did
you or didn't you?
MR. HABANS: Objection.
MR. MORIAL: I want to know,
13 becauie I don't mind you explaining, but
14 I'd like you to answer yes or no.
15 . THE COURT: H'11 answer the
16 question. Go ahead. Answer the question,
11 Mr. Papale, and then you can explain.
18 THE WITNESS: I didn't write
19 for an Attorney General's opinion. But the
20 fact remains that I didn't have to.
21 Because if you look at the title of the
22 Commissioner of Elections, it's
23 Commissioner of Elections and Registration.
24 He has more supervisory power over me than
25. any other public official, in my opinion.
26 Therefore, when the Commissioner of
27 Elections took the bull by the horns and
1 advised Registrars on a daily basis as to
2 what we should do or not do, and
3 specifically at one point he said this
4 thing is over. You don't have to do
5 anything more. You're out of the picture
6 and it's at an end. Now, I didn't take
7 anybody off the rolls. I don't see why I
8 should be persecuted by this kind of a
9 thing.
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
11 Q. Mr. Papale, you believe you're
12 being persecuted, don't you?
13 A. Judging from the way been
14 treated in various forms I think I am.
15 MR. MORIAL: I'd just move
to strike that response.
1;.7 THE COURT: I'm not going to
*8 strike it at all. You asked him the
question. Let's get back to the meat of
20 this case, because the purge by the
21 Republicans have nothing to do with the.
22 issue before me today.
23 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
24 Q. What I'm trying to find out, Mr.
25 Papale, is why you requested an opinion of
26 the Attorney General with regard to
27 postponing this canvass? It appears as
1 though you had not been in the practice of
2 requesting Attorney General opinions with
3 regard to the other activities in your
4 office.
5 A. Sir - ell•
6 THE COURT: I think your
7 question is misleading. Because I don't
8 think he wrote a letter to Attorney General
9 requesting postponement. He wrote a letter
10 to Attorney General saying that the City of
11 New Orleans passed a resolution requesting
12 him to postpone. That's my understanding
13 of the testimony. I don't think he was
14 asking the Attorney General for an opinion.
15 THE WITNESS: May I add,
16 Your Honor, well, thr(e other questions
17 too?
18 THE COURT: Go ahead.
19 THE WIIIIESS: They requested
20 a postponement not only of the canvass
21 which is required to be done in January,
22 but they requested me to postpone the
23 four-year purge so to speak. Now that has
24 no limitation. And I had to ask the
25 Attorney General. They also stated that
26 the next canvass I should appear before the
27 Council and tell them the dates and justify
1 the canvass. And then they stated another
2 thing which the Attorney General has ruled
3 is kind of ridiculous and they're carrying
4 it forward in this lawsuit. That when I
5 send the card of irregularity that I've got
6 to include a change of address card. Now,
7 card of irregularity is a card. The change
8 of address card is a card. How can you
9 enclose one in the other? You have to come
10 to the only conclusion that the Attorney
11 General came to in that case that it's a
12 duplication of effort and it just increases
13 - the cost because the card of irregularity
14 is sent first class and it would have to be
15 mailed at the same place that the City
16 Council wanted to mandate me to send to the
17 people who were being purged. I had to get
18 some kind of --
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
20 Q. Sir, the practice has been that
21 those four years -- failure to vote every
22 four years purge take place right after you
23 complete the canvass, right?
24 A. I don't know. I don't think.
25 Q. Did you review the Attorney
26 General's opinion?
27 A. I read it, yeah.
1 Q. So that's what -- would you
2 disagree with that's the wording of the
3 Attorney General's opinion used with regard
4 to the four-year purge?
5 A. All I recall the Attorney General
6 opinion says is -- it's in the records,
7 that I had to proceed.
8 Q. Mr. Papale --
9 A. With both canvasses.
10 Q. You remember part of the opinion,
11 but you don't remember the other part, do
12 you? Now, there came a time when you
13 requested an Attorney General' opinion,
14
15 as P-3 for purposes of identification. Is
16 that the request you sent to the Attorney
17 General?
18 THE COURT: His request?
19 MR. MORIAL: Yes, your
20 Honor.
21 THE WITNESS: In the light
22 of what I'm reading, Your Honor, I don't
23 know what the question is.
24 THE COURT: The question is
25 is this the letter you sent to Mr. Guste?
26 THE WITNESS: Yes.
27 THE COURT: He's answered
and I'm going to show you what I'm marking
1 the question.
2 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
3 Q. In that letter you didn't refer
4 to the fact that you hadn't begun the
5 canvass in January, did you?
6
7
8
A. No, sir. That was obvious.
Q. Obvious from what?
A. From the fact that I am writing
9 this letter on June the 9th and asking for
10 a postponement of these two canvasses.
11 Q. But you didn't mention anywhere
12 in that letter?
13 A. You're quibbling.
14 Q. Excuse me. Excuse me, sir?
15 A. You're asking questions that I
16 can't answer in the light of this.
17 Q. You can say that you can't
18 answer. I just asked you whether the
19 letter mentioned or whether you mentioned
20 that you hadn't even begun the canvass.
21 THE COURT: Well, the letter
22 speaks for itself.
23 THE WITNESS: It speaks for
24 itself.
25 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
26 Q. Sir, what harm would result if
27 you purged this year in December?
1 A. The harm comes that we have an
2 election on October the 24th and we have
3 another election on November the 21st.
4 According to our calculations, you have
5 about 8,000 people whose canvass cards came
6 back and who are subject to the purge and
7 are supposed to come in and make whatever
8 corrections they make. They have to
9 produce evidence to show that they are
10 still eligible to stay on the rolls.
11
12
Q. So in order to vote
MR. HABANS: Excuse me.
•
• 13 • THE WITNESS: Since that
14 time, the 11,000 cards have been reduced to
15 something like 8,000. Now, to keep these
16 people on the rolls who don't belong on
17 those rolls, according to our canvass
18 information, is certainly just as bad for
19 one group of citizen as it is for another
20 group who doesn't want to purge.
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
22 • Q. Isn't it a fact ., Mr. Papale, that
23 some of those people, when you say they
24 shouldn't be on the rolls, they are people
25 who moved and didn't notifiy you of their
26 • change in address, correct? So you can't
27 say, can you, sir, from the information you
1 have whether or not 90-percent of them live
2 in the same neighborhood but vote from a
3 residence address, can you?
4 MR. HABANS: Objection.
5 It's compound and argumentative, Your
6 Honor.
7 THE COURT: I agree with
8- you. It's gone far field. What he can say
9 and what he can't say is pure supposition.
10 MR. MORIAL: I think I'm
11 entitled to ask him. He's making
12 statements -
13 THE COURT: He can't say
14 that those people moved out of the wards,
15 if that's what you want to know. He can't
16 say that they're still in the ward.
17 MR. MORIAL: That's what I'm
18 ci,sking. He's made a statement that they
19 shouldn't be on the rolls, they're
20 .i.nqualified. And I think it's very
21 important for this Court -
22 THE COURT: That's not what
23 he said. He said there are 8,000 people
24 that should come in with evidence to prove
25 that they're still eligible voters; isn't
26 that what you said, Mr. Papale?
27 THE WITNESS: Yes. And if
1 ws mcde a mistake, the law says we correct
2 it. They don't even have to come i
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
4 Q.
•
But you are not aware with regard
5 to what reason these persons may be
6 ineligible?
7 A. Your Honor, may I answer that?
8 THE COURT: Yeah.
9 THE WITNESS: He has
-10 subpoenaed our canvass cards and the record
11 is right there. Why don't ha look at it?
12 THE COURT: But you
13 personally are not aware, are you?
14 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
16 Q. You're the RegistrAr of Voters?
17 THE COURT: Let's not argue,
18 Mr. Morial.
19 THE WITNESS: We do have
20 evidence from the effect --
21 MR.. MORIAL: ;Excuse me. .I
22 haven't asked a question.
23 THE COURT: But you make
24 statements. Don't make statements that
25 aren't necessary.
26 THE WITNESS: The next
27 witness will show those cards.
1 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, I'd
2 move to strike. I mean, I think under
3 cross-examination I'm entitled to have a
4 responsive witness.
5 THE COURT: Yeah, but you're
6 going far field and you make statements and
7 he comes out with answers from your
8 statements and you want to strike the
9 . answers and you're the one that instigates
10 the answers really from the statements you
11 made. Don't make statements. Ask
12 questions. Let him answer the questions.
13 MR.: MORIAL.: In fact, .a
14 leading question is a statement when I
15 ask - ••••
16 THE COURT: Now you're going
17 to argue with the Court now. Ask the
18 question to the witness. Let the witness
19 answer the question.
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
21 Q. Mr. Papale, your office maintains
22 some branch registration offices in various
23 neighborhoods?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Can someone subjected to the
26 canvass appear at a branch office to do
27 whatever they have to do to stay on the
1 rolls?
2 MR. HABANS: Object. The
3 issues that I understood this case was
4 about was whether or not having not
5 finished the canvass in January can it be
•6 finished now or whether it has to be
7 postponed.
8 THE WITNESS: If we're going
9 to go into counting noses and heads and
10 arguing whether -
11
12
13
THE COURT: What's the
purpose of the question?
MR. MORIAL: There are
14 constitutional contributions involved in
15 this case. One of the reasons why we
16 brousait this particular lawsuit is because
11 the timing of the canvass makes it
18 diffcult for persons to come in in a short
19 periOd of time albeit 8,000 to re-register
20 or bring their registration in line before
21 the election. It weighs heavily whether or
22 not a person in New Orleans that's in the
23 9th ward who's subjected to this canvass
24 has to go instead of to Downman Road come
25 to City Hall to bring his registration in
26 line. And that's part of the
27 constitutional chilling effect that
1 doing --
2 THE COURT: I don't think
3 that has anything to do with the issue
4 before me. Nothing whatsoever.
5 MR. MORIAL: I only would
6 state for the record that we brought up
7 some constitutional concerns.
8 THE COURT: I understand
9 that. But I don't think it's applicable.
10 MR. MORIAL: Can he answer
11 my previous question?
12 THE COURT: What was your
13 previous question?
14 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
15 Q. The previous question was when
16 one is challenged, where do they have to go
17 to correct their registration?
18 A. The letter of irregulawity has to
19 have a citation. That card of irregularity
20 is not concocted by me. It's mandated by
21
22 the approval of the Attorney General as to
23 content. The notice says they've got to
24 come in in person. But if it's just the
25 change of address, we will accept that
26 change of address just like we accept the
27 changes of address that we are now
the Commissioner of Elections subject to
1 conducting through the newspaper, name,
2 address.
3 THE COURT: You're trying to
4 find out if they can go on the branch and
5 get the same thing? Why don't you ask him?
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
7 Q. Can they go to the branch and do
that?
9 A. Yes, sir. Only at our main
10 branch office because NM.
11 Q. Some branch offices you can't do
12 it?
13 A. No, because they're temporary.
14 Q. That's not at all of the sites
15 then?
16 A. Sir, under the comprehensive
17 voter registration campaign Councilwoman
18 Taylor has mentioned, we're going to
19 literally hundreds of places that are not
20 permanent branch offices. And the college
21 and the university are only the tip of the
22 iceberg.
23 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, I
24 have no further questions at this time.
25 THE COURT: You can step
26 down, Mr. Papale.
27 MR. HABANS: I can reserve
1 mr examination of Mr. Papale for the case
2 in chief?
3 THE COURT: That's correct.
4 He's put on in cross under the act.
5 MR. MORIAL: Can I take a
6 brief recess? Is the Court going to
7 recess?
8 THE COURT: I wasn't
9 planning on recessing. I.was hoping to get
10 rid of the case. I'm on duty today only.
11 I'm off as of 4:00 o'clock today.
12 MR. MORIAL: Councilman
13 - James Singleton.
14 COUNCILMAN JAMES SINGLETON,
15 City Hall, 1300 Perido Street, New Orleans,
16 Louisiant 70112, on Monday, July 20,
17 1987, afer having been first duly sworn to
18 tell the truth, the whole truth, and
19 nothing ;)Itt the truth, was examined and
20 testified as follows:
21 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
22 Q. Sir, your name, business address
23 and current employment for the record?
24
25
26 address is 1300 Perdido Street, Room 2E009.
27 Q. Mr. Singleton, you are familiar
A. My name is James Singleton. I'm
City Councilman for District B, and the
with the canvass which is the subject of
2 this lawsuit?
3
4
A. Yes.
Q. In connection with this
5 particular canvass I want to show you
6 what's been marked P-1 for purposes of
7 identification which is a unanimous
8 resolution of the New Orleans City Council
9 regarding the 1987 canvass by the Registrar
10 of Voters Office. You're familiar with
11 that resolution?
12 A. Yes, I am.
13 Q. You• voted for that resolution?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. Could you give the Court some
16 background as to why the City Council may
17 have passed that resolution?
18 A. Well, when the situation_ first
1.9 came to us it was a purge of approximately
20 11,000 voters and it happened on a w,eekend
21 where there was not ample time for the
22 people to be able to respond to it. And we
23 passed the resolution requesting that it
24 not be done.
25 Q. Did that resolution include in it
26 a request that these purge activities be
27 postponed until after the election?
1 A. That was the request and this
2 resolution to, I believe, the Registrar
3 Voters of Orleans Parish and suggesting and
4 requesting that it not be done because of
5 the confusion that it would cause, and I
6 think with some references at least made to
7 the fact that last year there was mass
8 confusion over a purge and it came right in
9 the time when the election was going on.
10 And We felt that this situation would
11 create the same kind of problem.
12 Q. So the Council was acting as the
13 governing body for the people of this • city?
14 A. Yes, we were.
15 Q. And you mentioned a concern about
16 the confusion?
1.7 A. Yes.
18 Q. And did your office receive any
19 complaints regarding these voter canvasses
20 in the past when they took place around an
21 election?
22 A. There were a number of complaints
23 not written, mostly telephone
24 conversations, coming into my office and I
25 believe there were a number of people who
26 appeared at the council meeting to object
27 to the way it was being done, and they felt
1 that the Registrar's Office was really
2 being unfair in the way it was being done.
3 Q. Sir / you serve on the •City
4 Council's budget committee?
5
6
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And that committee is
7 responsible, among other things, for
8 reviewing and making recommendations with
9 regard to the budget of Mr. Papale's
10 office?
11 A. Inzluding his office, yeah.
12 That's all budget-related matters for the
13 City of New Orleans.
14 Q. At any time during the budget
15 hearings wherein you participated, do you
16 recall any mantion being made with regard
17 to any need oy his office to postpone the
18
19 .
canvass?
A.
20 Q. Were you aware that the city had
21 required the Registrar of Voters to
22 relocate?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And at any time did the Registrar
25 of Voters indicate to the Council and you
26 as a member of the Budget Committee that
27 that relocation would cause problems with
1 regard to the canvass functions of his
2 office?
3 A. No. And in fact last year when
4 we had this serious problem with it it was
5 my understanding from his office when he
, 6 appeared before us then that everything
7 would be done on time and on schedule.
That was my impression.
9
10
11
12
3. 3
Q. And was there any indication
after that particular hearing that there
were some problems with regard to doing
those activities on time?
A. The only time aware of is the
14 fact when this situation came up about the
15 purge and we called M. Papale before the
16 City Council that we understand that wail a
17 problem.
.18 Q. The relocation of his office as
19 mandated by the city?
20 A. I understand that was an
21 administrative matter handled by the Chief
22 Administrative Office, Mr. Steiner, and the
23 Council did not get involved and did not
24 participate and was not consulted.
25 Q. And you had no knowledge of the
26 fact that the matter would be postponed for
27 reasons relating to the Chief.
1 Administrative Office or relating to Mr.
2 Papale?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Sir, are you familiar with the
5 fact that the law requires canvasses to
6 take place in January?
7 A. That's my understanding of the
8 law and I have been told that on several
9 occasions. I think it came up and was
10 pointed out in the hearings before the City
11
12 Q. Do you have an understanding as
13 to why that's the law?
14 A. No, ,I can't say that I have an
15 understanding except it is the law that
16 says it should be done in January. And I
17 assumed that would be done because that's
18 when you don't have elections and it
19 provides an opportunity , to do it in a calm
20 atmosphere.
21 MR. HABANS: Objection.
22 Move to strike in view of the fact that the
23 Councilman said he didn't know.
24 THE COURT: He already said
25 he didn't know.
26 MR. MORIAL: No further
27 questions at this time.
Council in the last few months.
1 THE COURT: Cross?
2 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Singleton.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. Are you aware of the fact there
6 was an election on January 17th, 1987 right
7 in the middle of the period of time that
8 you would have anticipated canvassing to be
9 completed?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Are you also aware, sir, that Mr.
12 Kirt Steiner, the CAO, and other members
13 ordered Mr. Papale to move his office
14 effective December 29 to begin the physical
15 moving of his office even over the
16 objections of Mr. Papale's office because
17 of the problem's that he created with the
18 impending January 17 election?
19 A. I'm aware that he was supposed to
20 move his office. Now, the details, I don't
21 understand that. I'm not aware and was not
22 privy to that information.
23 Q. Have you learned from any source,
24 from either your communication with the
25 administration or otherwise, that Mr.
26 Papale's office usually functioned with
27 about eight computer terminals but because
1 of the move he had to function with only
2 two computer terminals for an extended
3 period of time?
4
5
A. No, I'm not aware of it.
Q. Are you aware of the fact when
6 Civil Service applicants take the
7 examination to be police officers or
8 related Civil Service positions there's a
9 procedure whereby they have to have
10 evidence of their voter registration and
11 that they have to get a certificate?
12 A. I would hope that is the case.
13 Q. When they do that, that ties up
14 Mr. Papale's staff' for an extended period
15 of time?
16 A. I can't say, because of Civil
17 Service employees. I can't see how that
18 would tie up the Registrar's Office simply
19 dealing with Civil Service employees. If '
20 they do, I'd be very disappointed.
21 Q. Are you aware of the fact that
22 Mr. Papale's office didn't have all of its
23 computers both by the telephone company and
24 with respect to the Commissioner of
25 Elections until about the middle of March
26 1986 and that was the first time they were
27 back up to full speed?
131
1 A. If you say that, I'll have to
2 accept that. I have no knowledge one way
3 or the other as to when the office was on
* 4 line. I didn't ask for the information.
5 If you say that was the case, I'll have to
6 accept that as a fact'.
7 Q. When you said, indicated, I
8 believe, that Mr. Papale's office had not
9 made the. Council aware of some of these
10 problems occasioned by the move until just
11 recently, did the city administration, who
12 received a number of letters from Mr.
13 Papale's office, did they ever advise t
14 Council of the difficulties that were
15 created by their forcing Mr. Papale's
16 office to move at the end of December,
17 beginning of January?
18 A. No, they did not.
19 MR. HABANS: That's all I
20 have. Thank you Mr. Singleton.
21 MR; MORIAL: No further
22 questions, Councilman. Thank you. Next
23 witness, the Honorable Johnny Jackson, Your
24 Honor.
25 MR. HABANS: I don't want to
26 deny Mr. Jackson a chance to testify, but
27 it seems as if these council members are
1 saying essentially the same thing. We know
2 they passed a resolution.
3 THE COURT: Do you want to
4 stipulate?
5 MR. HABANS: I'm wondering
6 if --
7 MR. MORIAL: It happens to
8 - be the councilman for the particular area
9 that's being purged.
10 THE COURT: Is there
11 anything different? Can you stipulate that
12 it would be similar?
13 MR. MORIAL: Stipulate it
14 would be similar to Mr. Singleton in all
15 respects, and additionally, if he were to
16 testify he would telitify with more
17 particularity to thc:- complaints he received
18 from his actual confatituents with regard to
19 the confusion that occurred when purges
20 take place near an election.
21 THE COURT: Well, I think
22 we've got some of that in evidence already.
23 Can you go along with that stipulation?.
24 MR..HABANS: Yes, Your
25 Honor, we're stipulating that's what the
26 councilman would say if he were called to
27 testify.
1 THE COURT: All right.
2 Councilman is now the councilman from
3 District E? Councilman, you don't have to
4 testify.
5 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, at
6 this time I'd like to call the Reverend
7 Avery Alexander.
8 THE COURT: Do you want to
9
10
11
12
stipulate towards him too, Mr. Habans? Do
you want to stipulate towards his
testimony, also?
MR. HABANS: I'm not sure.
13 This might be a little different.
14 MR. MORIAL: Yes, Your
15 Honor. This is different.
16 REVEREND AVERY ALEXANDER,
17 2921 Philip Street, New Orleans,
18 Louisiana 70113, on Monday, July 20,
19 1987, after having been first duly sworn to
20 tell the truth, the whole truth, and
21 nothing but the truth, was examined and
22 testified as follows:
23 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
24 Q. Good afternoon, sir. For the
25 record, your name and the office you hold?
26 A. I'm Reverend Avery C. Alexander.
27 I hold the position of State Representative
1 from Legislative District 93.
2 Q. How long have you held that
3 position?
4 A. Twelve years at the end of this
5 term.
6 Q. And sir, in connection with your
7 seat in the legislature, do you serve on
8 any committees?
9 A. Yes. I serve on the committee of
10 House and Government Affairs where these
11 matters usually come.
12 Q. And do you hold a leadership
13 position on that particular committee?
14 A. Vice-chairman.
15 Q. And, sir, for the record, how
16 long have you been involved in voter
17 registration and voting rights issues here
18 in New Orleans?
19 A. Since 1931.
20 Q. And that involvement has been
21 continuous?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And extensive?
24 A. And extensive, right.
25 Q. Sir, in connection with your
26 involvement on the House Committee for
•27 Governmental Affairs which handles all
1 matters relating to the Registrar of
2 Voters, I'm going to show you what I'.111
3 going to mark as P-4 for purposes of
4 identification. It is Act 669 of 1986
5 which is a bill which you co-authored.
6 THE COURT: That's the Act
7 in question before us?
8 MR. MORIAL: That's the Act
9 in question, Your Honor.
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
11 Q. Sir, this Act is the Act in
12 question which is Act 669 of 1986 and this
13 Act appears to be an act which changed
14 various aspects of the Election Code.
15 Included in the Act was a requirement on
16 Registrars that canvassas take place in
17 January. Are you familiar with the Act?
18 A. To some extent.
19 Q. And were you co-author of that
20 Act?
21 A. *Yes.
22 Q. Sir, can you tell the Court the
23 reason the legislature mandated that
24 canvasses take place in January as opposed
25 to the old law when they took place at any
26 time of the year?
27 A. Well, there had been an attempt
136
1 to try to scratch a large number of blacks
2 in Louisiana, I think, something like a
3 hundred-thousand. As a result of that much
4 legislature was introduced including a few
5 bills by me and this was supposed to have
6 been kind of consensus of an opinion that,
7 will require the Registrar of Voters or to
8 permit him some leeway to do it at other
9 times other than January.
10 Q. Well, in law, in other words,
11 prior to the law, they could do it at any
12 other time?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The current law added the
15 January?
16 A. January, yes.
17 Q. Could you tell me by looking at
18 the author of that act if there was a
19 consensus of party and demographic lines
20 within the state with regard to their
21 particular legislation?
22 A. Not altogether. I noticed there
23 was some Republicans and Conservatives, and
24 of course, I was the only black involved.
25 Q. In other words, the Republicans
26 and the Conservative legislators also
27 agreed to limit canvassing to January.
1 MR. HABANS: Objection.
2 Leading.
3 THE COURT: Don't lead the
4 witness. You've been leading him all
5 along.
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
7 Q. Mr. Alexander, I want you to
8 - focus on the requirement that these
9 canvasses take place in January. Could you
10 tell the Court why the legislature limited
11 canvasses to January?
12 MR. HABANS: Objection, Your
13 Honor, leading. And I think it misstates
14 the facts.
15 THE COURT: You already
16 asked him the question. He's a member of
17 the legislature. You can ask him why he
18 went along with it.
19 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
20 Q. Why did you go along with this,
21 sir?
22 A. Actually, Mr. Morial, I lent my
23 name during the hearings to the bill as the
24 co-author. If I'm not mistaken, I voted
25 against it eventually.
26 Q.Do you know why you voted against
27 it?
138
1 A. I voted against it primarily
2 because the authors were attempting to use
3 it for purposes that we had not intended.
4 Q. Did you have any position with
5 regard to -- opinion with regard to
6 canvassing and the time of year that it
7 were to take place?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 MR. HABANS: Objection,
10 It's not relevant if it's not part of the
11 law.
12 THE COURT: It's immaterial.
13 MR. MORIAL: I'm asking your
14 opinion with regard to the particular
15 opinion at issue.
16 THE COURT: That's all
17 right.
18 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
19 Q. Do you have an opinion with
20 regard to whether you support or don't
21 support a limitation on when canvasses take
22 place?
23 A. I viewed that as just another
24 device to confuse and eliminate blacks at
25 times of election. So I had a tendency to
26 oppose most of these bills, especially
27 those proposed by the author. This piece
139
1 of legislation.
2 Q. So do you have an opinion -- can
3 you tell the Court what confusion takes
4 place when canvasses take place near an
5 election?
6 MR. HABANS:. Objection. I
7 don't think that was mentioned.
8 MR. MORIAL: He said he
9 just
10 .THE COURT: I think he's
11 main source was voting against the author.
12 THE WITNESS: And the
13 confusion, Judge, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: What was the
15 confusion?
16 THE WITNESS: Well,
17 primarily the canvass is. a historical part
18 of the various devices that had been
19 utilized for the last hundred years or more
20 to either prevent blacks from registering
21 to vote and to scratch them off the rolls
22 once they become registered.
23 THE COURT: You're against
24 all canvassing?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes,
26 primarily.
27 THE COURT: That's why you
1 voted against that Act?
2 THE WITNESS: Primarily.
3 And Judge, if I may remind you, I'm sure
4 you remember when every time the number of
5 black registered voters would' exceed 35,000
6 there was a big canvass to cut them down to
7 15 or 20, and that went on for about 20
8 years, Judge. Just another device.
9 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, I
10 have no further questions.
11 THE COURT: Cross?
12 •MR. HABANS: No examination,
13 Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Thank you,
15 Reverend.
16 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, at
17 this time I'd call Mr. Carl Galmon.
18 CARL GALMON, 7600 Primrose
19 Drive, New Orleans, Louisiana 70126, on
20 Monday, July 20, 1987, after having been
21 first duly sworn to tell the truth, the
22 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
23 examined and testified as follows:
24 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
25 Q. Mr. Galmon, could you please
26 state your name and address for the record?
27 A. Carl Galmon, 7600 Primrose Drive,
141
1 New Crleans, Louisiana.
2 Q. Sir, are you involved or
3 connected with any voter registration
4 organizations in the city?
5 A. Yes. I'm involved with Voter
6 Registration 84. I was formerly involved
7 with Voter Education Project which is
8 home-based in Atlanta, Georgia.
9 Q. And Registration '84, could you
10 tell the Court what type of organizization
11 that is?
12 A. Voter Registration '84 is
13 primarily designed •to deal with voter
14 registration and also looking at
15 reapportionment and apportionment of
16 districts here in the State of Louisiana.
17 Q. Has the Organization Registration
18 '84 been involved with voter purge issues?
19 A. Yes, we have, right.
20 Q. Could you tell the Court when and
21 in what instances?
22 A. We were involved during the time
23 there was attempt to purge blacks off the
24 rolls around the U.S. gubernatorial race.
25 In fact, we picketed Mr. Papale's office
26 because of that and also made several
27 attempts to contact voters who were very
1 upset about the fact they were going to be
2 purged, and they felt there was no valid
3 reason for them to be purged. And one of
4 the things the folks got upset mostly,
5 there's no need for them to be challenged.
6 Cards come to their house. They'd be
7 living at a certain address 10 or 12 years.
8 Here's a cards saying we challenge your
9 registration. That's the shocking effect
10 about this particular card. If there was a
11 valid reason for challenging someone, they
12 can accept that particular reason. But
13 sending a card to a house, we're
14 challenging you. A lot of folks get upset
15 about that. And many times folks turned
16 with the system because they always
17 challenged when it comes down to elections.
18 And historically in this city it follows a
19 pattern whenever there's a major election,
20 when it's a presidential election or
21 gubernatorial election, in the area where
22 there's a largest concentration of blacks,
23 they are challenged in that particular
24 year. For example, back in the 70's the
25 largest number of blacks in this city lived
26 in the central city area. Whenever there
27 was a major election they were always
1 challenged on that particular year. Now
2 that we have increased the rolls in the 9th
3 ward ., the rolls are highly majority black,
4 it seems like on the eve of every major
5 election they are challenging in the 9th
6 ward. So I feel the purge is being used to
7 somewhat get blacks off the rolls.
8 Primarily in this city only about 15
9 percent of blacks own their homes. Low
10 income familes and people are constantly
11 moving. What they are constantly doing is
12 challenging those blacks because many times
13 houses are condemned. If the house is
14 condemned, a person happens to move. He's
15 not moving on his own accord. He's moved
16 because the house is -- he's forced to
17 I move. And the person is penalized both
18 ways. He's forced to move because of
19 substardard house. Secondly, he's
20 challenged because he had to move because
21 of the voter registration rolls. And these
22 are some of the things that exist in this
23 city.
24 Q. The current canvass is directed
25 at Wards 8 and 9. And you live where?
26 A. Ninth Ward. New Orleans East
27 area.
1 Q. And the members of your
2 organization, does it include persons who
3 live and reside and are registered voters
4 in the 9th wards?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Are you partisan or nonpartisan?
7 A. Nonpartisan.
8 Q. How long have you personally been
9 involved, in voter registration?
10 A. Since about '59.
11 Q. That includes involvement with
12 some national organizations?
13 A. VEP, Voter Education Project. I
14 was involved with A. Phillip Randolph
15 Institute in the South District Conference.
16 Q. The purge which is the subject of
17 this particular lawsuit, you've mentioned
18 in your testimony that these challenges
19 when they take place near an election --
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Has a certain effect on the
22 voting public?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Could you be somewhat more
25 explicit?
26 A. For example, here in this city we
27 have three permanent branches outside of
1 the main office. A lot of folks, when they
2 receive their card, most of them don't own
3 cars. Many of them on fixed income. Maybe
4 to someone $1.50 is not much money. It
5 costs a person to catch the bus who are
6 getting security or on welfare to come down
7 to the main office to change their
8. registration. I went over to the branch on
9
10
11
2727 Louisa Street, 6900 Downman Road, and
they told me if you received a card that
you have to come to the main office in
12 order to get it straight. If you received
13 a card in the mail and they're about to
14 purge you. Also to -
15 Q. Excuse me. When did you go to
16 those branches?
17 A. I went to those branches during
18 the time of the Republican purge and also
19 during the time of a listing of names came
20 out in the paper. Folks told me that •they
21 heard their name was on there. In fact, I
22 looked at some of the folks name they •were
23 on the list and, in fact, one of them is my
24 brother. Also I spoke with folks in the
25 Desire Project and the listing of names
26 came out in the paper. And Desire, they
27 don't throw the paper in the project. If
1 the name come out in the Picyune saying
2 they're going to be purged and they didn't
3 throw the paper in the Desire Project, how
4 would they know their name's in the paper?
5 That's one of them. We have 10 housing
6 projects in New Orleans. And I know for a
7 fact two of them they don't throw
8 newspapers in the project. That's the St.
9 Bernard and Desire Project.
10 THE COURT: Registrar of
11 *Voter has nothing to do with that.
12 THE WITNESS: I realize
13 that. But how is •a person going to know?
14 THE COURT: I understand
15 that. Do I understand your testimony is
16 you believe that blacks are challenged more
17 than the law requires that they be
18 challenged during election years?
19 THE WITNESS: That's right.
20 I could trace the history of purging of
21 blacks from the roll from 1867.
22 THE COURT: I'm not talking
23 about 1867. I'm talking about currently.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes. They
25 were challenged more. And the reason they
26 are challenged, blacks have a tendency to
27 move more because of low income of housing
1 and that's why they were challenged more.
2 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
3 Q. You made mention of the fact that
4 in low incomes in black areas people move
5 more frequently?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. And as a result the system used
8 to challenge which is in effect, a mail
9 system. They sometimes challenge persons
10 who are still qualified?
11 A. Yes, they do. For example,
12
13 at my address since 1972 which I own my own
14 home. Both me and my wife received a card
15 challenging my registration. I feel that's
16 an insult to challenge someone every time
17 there's a major election. There's no need
18 to challenge my registration, because I
19 have voted in every election since I've
20 been a registered voter. And I've been
21 about -- been registered since 1964. But
22 that's some of the tactics that's used on
23 some of the voters by challenges. There's
24 no need. And by working with national
25 organizations, this type of tactics is not
26 used but here in a so-called sunbelt of
27 southern states where Louisiana is one of
speaking specifically myself, I .been living
1 the those states that's covered under 1965
2 • Voting Right Act. If you lived in New York
3 or California you don't find these kind of
4 challenges taking .place but here in
5 southern states, primarily Louisiana. I.
6 worked with an organization. that operates
7 here in the 13 southern states, Voter
8 Education Project, and they have used this
9 challenge as a tool to take blacks off the
10 roll when it come down to major elections,
11 and my statistic of data which I have in my
12 attache case can prove that. Also there
13 was a primary reason the state went on the
14 computer system where the Board of Election
15 and Commissioner of Elections could
16 somewhat monitor this type of activity
1.7 because the 64 parishes is on the computer
18 system. And I feel that if a person had
19 wanted to do a mail-out in January, the
20 same type of activity could have taken
21 place from the state level, from Douglas
22 Fawler's office in order to -- Jerry
23 Fawler, I'm sorry, to see if a person
24 actually reside at another address.
25 Q. Mr. Galmon, at some time in March
26 of '87 did you direct some correspondence
27 to the Commissioner of Elections with
1 regard to the computer system?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. I'm going to show you what I'm
4 marking as P-4 which is a response received
5 by you from them with regard to that.
6 MR. HABANS: Your Honor,
7 object to the relevancy, also the hearsay
8 aspect of this.
9 THE COURT: I don't know
10 what it is. What is it?
11 MR. MORIAL: It's a letter
12 Mr. Gallon wrote which indicates --
13 MR. HABANS: No, sir. It's
14 a letter he received.
15 MR. MORIAL: In response to
16 a letter he wrote. And it reference -
17 THE COURT: Too whom?
18 THE WITNESS: To the
19 Commissioner cl Elections.
20 THE COURT: And what?
21 MR. MORIAL: It references
22 the voter registration computer list that
23 the list of registrants are available from
24 the Commissioner of Elections which Mr.
25 Papale has testified that the information
26 that he requested was not available because
27 his computer system was down. This letter
,•••
150
1 indicates that it can be ordered from a
2 Commissioner of Elections.
3 MR. HABANS: May I respond?
4 I think counsel is misunderstanding. The
5 initial list of voters is all of the
6 registered voters in Wards 8 and 9. From
7 that the first canvass card is prepared.
8' One for every voter. Those are mailed.
9 Some come back. The ones that come back
10
11
12
are the ones that are deliverable to the
name at the address indicated. When they
come back they then have to be put into the
13 computer again so that when they, call for
14 the second card, which is called by Mr.
15 Papale the card of irregularity or the
16 second canvass card, that can only be done
17 after all the information is put back into
18 the computer by the technicians and the
19 computer operators in the local Registrar's
20 Office.
21 THE COURT: Is that the
22 figure of 11,000 reduced down to 8,000?
23 MR. HABANS: Actually it was
24 90,000 reduced down do 11,000.
25 MR. MORIAL: No. It was
26 reduced down to 8,000.
27 MR. HABANS: The first
1 mailiag was 90,000. I'm talking after they
2 come back there are about 11,000. Some of
3 the voters have come in response to some
4 newspaper advertisements and such and have
5 changed their address. And therefore that
6 number has been massaged down only to 8,000
7 is remaining on which the cards of
8 irregularity need to be sent. I'm sure
9 everyone wants to agree no one wants the
10 Registrar to send a card of the
11 irregularity to the 3,000 voters who has
12 changed his or her address. So before the
13 card of irregularity can be requested from
14 the Commissioner of Elections, it must be
15 certain that the accurate information is in
16 the computer so we get only those 8,000
17 cards.
18 THE COURT: I think Mr.
19 Papale said something they've got to be
20 serialized?
21 MR. HABANS: That's the way
22 they do it. There's a number on the card
23 that I'm told that the computer operators
24 put into the computer.
25 THE COURT: This is not the
26 same thing.
27 MR. HABANS: This is a list
1 of all the registered voters. It's not the
2 updated.
3 MR. MORIAL: The only thing
4 I would say, is maybe the point we're trying
5 to make is that the list of registered
6 voters is available in Baton Rouge, and it
7 stands to reason if there's a statutory
8 requirement to do certain things prudent
9 management requires that you utilize
10 secondary or backup systems to do that. We
11 don't quibble about the fact that maybe a
12 computer was down. Computers go down all
13 the time. But the information was
14 available elsewhere. The computer system
15 which M. Fawler has in his office is state
16 of the art. And by simply taking thoge
17 cards or delivering the cards that cane
18 back to Baton Rouge, the cards of
19 irregularity could have come out. W e don't
20 quibble with that, Your Honor. We just
21 point out that --
22 THE COURT: I don't see how
23 that's possible under the testimony I've
24 heard.
25 MR. HABANS: In addition,
26 that's argument. But Your Honor, the
27 original voter registration records are
1 maintained in Mr. Papale's office. We have
2 subpoenaed some of them here today for
3 purposes of this hearing. But the fact is
4 what might have been is not an issue. The
5 fact is Mr. Papale's office tried to
6 discharge its obligations to complete the
7 canvass and because of overwhelming other
8 problems didn't finish. But what could
9 have been or the fact that Mr. Fawler's
10 office doesn't get funded to conduct the
11 • Orleans Parish voter canvass is all
12 conjecture and speculation, and I move to
13 disallow that sort of testimony.
14 THE COURT: I'm going to
15 sustain the objection to introduction of
16 the letter. I don't think it's admissible.
17 MR. MORIAL: I want to
18 respond to counsel's argument, Your Honor
19 because there has been some argument with
20 regard to the merits of the issue. To say
21
22
23
24
25
26
27 a lawyer to tell his client, "I am sorry.
that a public official with the
responsibility with administering the rules
and regulations and statutes regarding the
constitutional right to voter can postpone
a statutory, requirement because he was
relocating his office is the same thing for
154
1 I have to relocate my office. I couldn't
2 file your answer within the prescriptive
3 period." We're not here attempting to
4 suggest at any point and time that these
5 actions were, in fact, willful. All we're
6 suggesting is that the law is clear, number
7 one, and that equity requires -- equity
8 requires due to the history of confusion
9 with regard to these purges that this
10 matter be postponed until after the
11 election. Thut's what this suit is about.
12 There are reasons given. And as a counsel,
13 a lawyer can say, "I had to relocate my
14 office. I couldn't file within the
15 statutory time period." A candidate could
16 say, "I got in an accident and I had to
17 relocate my clfice. I couldn't file for
18 public office before Friday. Please let me
19 file for pub3:.c office." I don't think the
20 law would respect that type of reasoning
21 and then be powerless, powerless to stand
22 in equity to remedy a situation.
23 THE COURT: I don't think
24 it's as simple as that Mr. Morial. I think
25 in this situation you have an individual
26 who's mandated by a state legislative act
27 to do something and then the City of New
1 Orleans comes in by resolution and says
2 look we realize you're mandated to do that,
3 but we request that you don't do it and you
4 postpone it. He sees himself in a pickle.
5 So he writes to the Attorney General. He
6 said what'should I do. You've got a
7 mandate to do something. I now have the
8' city requesting that I don't do it. You
9 tell me what to do. And he gets a letter
10 - from the Attorney General. And I think
11 that's the situation here. I don't think
12 it has anything to do with what you're
13 trying to introduce now.
14 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, we
15 understand that the Attorney. General has
16 prepared an opinion. Those opinions are
17 advisory. There are numerous cases where
18 courts have interpreted the law differently
19 than the Attorney General has interpreted
20 the law.
21 THE COURT: I understand
22 that. That's the courts. It's not the
23 bodies who make the request. But it's the
24 same thing for the City Council making and
25 the Court may reverse that opinion later
26 on. But the City Council got that opinion.
27 Well, he gets an opinion from the Attorney -
156
1 General. The Court may not agree with that
2 opinion later on. That comes later. He
3 has written to the General and asked for
4 the Attorney General's opinion because the
5 Attorney General is the one that guides
6 him. He's a state agency. He must do
7 that.
8 MR. MORIAL: We understand
9 that. And the Court --
10 THE COURT: Let's proceed.
11 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
12 Q. Sir, did you receive a challenge
13 to your residence?
14 A. Yes, I did. I received a
15 challenge and I was very much concerned
16 about if because there was no need for a
17 challenge. And the reason I was concerned
18 about the challenge is because challenge of
19 voters in this state is a sacred cow.
20 There are no blacks in this state that make
21 decision on who should be purged from the
22 rolls of their state. There are no black
23 Registrar of Voters in this state. So I'm
24 very much concerned about those kinds of
25 tactics being used. That's why *I was upset
26 about the particular challenge because
27 blacks have no input in this state as to
157
-7. „-
1 who should be purged.
2
3 have no further questions at this time
4 THE COURT: Cross?
5
6 Q. Good afternoon, M. Galmon.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Are you aware of the fact that
9 the Registrar of Voter has no input over
10 who should be purged in the State of
11 Louisiana as well?
12 A. That's not so.
13 Q. Well, sir, are you aware of the
14 fact that the law requires that the
15 Registrars of Voters canvass one-fourth of
16 all the precincts in the Parish of Orleans
17 each year?
18 A. The Registrar of Voter has the
19 right to rotate i::hat particular canvass
20 according to law. He has a right to rotate
21
22 up is to challenge blacks in the largest -
23 in the areas where there's a largest number
24 of blacks. The mayor's race and the
25 gubernatorial and the presidential. I've
26 followed his actions since 1968.
27 Q. You're aware of the fact that in
MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, I
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
it. And where Mr. Papale got his purge set
1 this year, 1987, Wards 8 and 9 were
2 scheduled for the annual canvassing, are
3 you not, Mr. Galmon?
4 A. That's right. And there's 29,000
5 black registered voters in the 9th ward.
6 Q. Are you also aware of the fact
7 that there is no mayoralty or no City
8 Council --
9 A. There's a gubernatorial.
10 Q. But you said that the black voter
11 canvass was set up for the mayoralty - MED
12 A. What I said, you misquoted what
13 I'm saying. I understand during mayoralty
14 blacks are challenged in areas where
15 there's a largest concentration of blacks.
16 I'm talking about central city to 7th ward
17 and the 9th wards. They have a pattern
18 that they have worked every major election.
19 That's the three areas. Out of those
20 three, one of them get challenged every
21 major election. It takes in the central
22 city area to 7th ward or the 9th ward.
23 Q. Do you understand one-fourth of
24 all the precincts have to be challenged
25 every year?
26 A. But I never see Algiers being
27 challenged like that. I never see the
1 Lakefront being challenged like that. Only
2 the areas where there's a largest
3 concentration of blacks.
4 Q. That's your opinion?
5 A. It's a fact.
6 Q. It's an opinion that you're
7 testifying --
8 A. It's not an opinion. It's a
9 fact.
10 Q. Mr. Galmon, when .you say that you
11 received a challenge to your registration,
12 sir, isn't it a fact that what you received
13 was a card that said "Notice to All
14 Registered Voters"?
15 A. No. The card I received was a
16 challenge questioning whether I resided at
17 that particular address.
18 Q. Did you receive the card?
19 A. I received the card. I threw it
20 in the trash can.
21 Q. The card did not say, "Dear
22 Voter, R.S. 18:192 provides that the
23 Registrar of Voters shall canvass the names
24 appearing on the roll of one-fourth of the
25 precincts in the parish." Did it say that?
26 A. But it's still a challenge.
27 Q. Did it go on to say that, "This
1 card is the initial step in the process to
2 removed from the rolls the names of all
3 persons no longer living in this parish or
4 for any other reason no longer eligible to
5 remain on the rolls"?
6 A. But I still live in that parish.
7 I haven't changed my address. There was no
8' need for a challenge.
9 Q. Did it also say, "If your name
10 and address are the same as those appearing
11 on the face of the card you may destroy it
12 or keep it as a confirmation of your
13 tegistration"? Did it say that?
14 A. It said that, but I threw it in
15 the trash can. That card is a challenge
16 card. They don't use, that type of language
17 in California or New York. It's only used
18 in the southern statils to keep blacks off
19 the rolls.
20 Q. I'm not asking you to give us any
21 opinion.
22 A. It's not opinion. It's a fact.
23 Q. Or Texas or anywhere else, or New
24 York or anywhere else. What I'm asking
25 you, no where on this card does the word
26 challenge appear; is that right?
27 A. The language speaks for itself.
. 161
1 Q. And when it says "If your name
2 and address are correct on the front of the
3 card and it's delivered to you, then you
4 may keep this card as confirmation of your
5 registration. Is that what it says?
6 A. The purpose of that particular
7 card is to challenge my address. Any moron
8 could realize that.
9 Q. I'm not asking you to interpret
10 what the purpose is. I'm asking you, sir,
11 if you understand if you received that card
12 it serves as a confirmation of your
13 registration?
14 A. It's not that. It's to challenge
15 my registration. I've been in voter
16 registration since 1959. I know every
17 tactic being used to get folks off the
18 roll.
19 Q. You understand that when Mr.
20 Papale's office mails this canvass card,
21 the ones similar to the one that you threw
22
23
24
25
26 A. H's mandated to challenge the
27
away, you understand, sir, that he does
that because he is absolutely mandated to
do that by the laws of the State of
Louisiana, don't you?
rolls, but what I'm saying, don't come with
1
2
3 eve of a major election or the year of
4 major election.
5 Q. Sir, are you in a position to
6 tell this Court out of the approximately
7 8,000 canvass cards concerning which there
8 is no forwarding address or no other
9 evidence that those voters are still
10 citizens of the Parish of Orleans? Are you
11 telling this Court that none of those 8,000
12 registered voters are no longer -- all of
13 those are still qualified voters of this
14 city?
15 A. I'm not saying that. It's two
16 ways you can do canvass, door-to-door or
17 mail-out type of canvas. I feel that the
18 Registrar should do door-to-door instead
19 doing mail-out. It also stimulates, again,
20 the illiterate voter because they can not
21 read and write. On the 1965 Voting Right
22 Act, that's illegal. And also handicapped
23 voters because many of them have impaired
24 vision.
25 Q. Mr. Galmon, you're here
26 expressing personal feelings?
27 A. Those are facts.
pattern where you challenge the largest
concentration of blacks on the roll on the
163
1 Q. But they're your facts as you've
2 expressed concerning complaints you have
3 about the entire system of voter
4 registration?
5 A. I know why it's being used. I
6 know whyit's been involved.
7 Q. Excuse me, sir. You're not
8 answering my question. You think you know
9 why things are done. I'm asking you if you
10
11
12
realize the Registrar has to follow the law
in the state of Louisiann?
MR. MORIAL: Objection.
13 Argumentative.
14 THE WITNESS: If he would
15 have purged in January instead of July or
16 August, whenever he planned --
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABAN:
18 Q. You're one of he named
19 .plaintiffs, are you aware of that?
20 A. I'm a named plaintiff and I'm
21 glad I'm a named plaintiff because I
22 realize the pattern that's being used by
23 Mr. Papale to keep the blacks off the rolls
24 and to purge blacks.
25 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Galmon. I asked
26 to you a simple question. If you don't
27 understand, just tell me. Don't make a
1 speech.
2 A. I understand your question.
3 MR. MORIAL: Objection.
4 Arguing.
5 THE COURT: Don't argue with
6 , the witness, please.
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
8 Q. Mr. Galmon, you're a named
9 plaintif.f. Is it your testimony that
10 you're going to be irreparably harmed?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Can I finish? Is it your
• 13 • testimony that you believe under oath that
14 you would be irreparably harmed if Mr.
15 Papale goes forward to complete the
16 legislatively mandated canvassing and
17 purging in the parish of Orleans in Wards 8
18 and 9?
19 A. Of course. Let me explain that
20 to you. You wouldn't mind, would you?
21 Q. Can you answer that?
22 A. Yes. Also I'll be harmed if that
23 would take place. I've been involved in
24 voter registration since '59. I've been
25 directly involved in registering thousands
26 of blacks in this city. I had to file a
27 complaint against the U. S. Justice
165
1 Department to get voter registration in
2 this city. If Mr. Papale is allowed to use
3 his tactics to remove folks off the roll,
4 this will effect me by taking folks off the
5 rolls that I have registered. I figure
6 it's wrong for him to try to use his
7 tactics to get folks off the roll. It
8 would discourage poor people from
9 participating. For example, in the
10 electoral, by •not allowing them to
11 participate in the electoral. I see no
12 reason why he can not wait until December.
13 . Q. Mr. Galmon, axe you aware of the
14 fact that the Attorney General of the State
15 of Louisiana has told (Mr. Papale in a
16 formal opinion that he may not wait until
17 December? You're aware of that?
.18 A. I have not seen your opinion. Do
19 -3rou have a copy of it.
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. May I see it?
22 Q. Can you answer my question?
23 THE COURT: Answer the
24 question. Are you aware?
25 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware
26 of it.
27 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
1 Q. Fine. Mr. Galmon, you are a
2 registered voter?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. You've voted within the last four
5 years?
6 A. Every election.
7 Q. You know, sir, that you will not
8 be the victim of any purge of any voter
9 names whatsoever, don't you?
10 A. I'm not selfish. When I think of
11 folks participating in the electoral, I'm
12 thinking about everybody participating.
13 I'm thinking about the folks I have
14 registered over a number of years. The
15 many times I waste my time driving my car
16 picking up folks, taking them to register,
17 the time that I put in in —tte neighborhoods
18 and getting folks to particpate in voting.
19 When a man comes along and tses
20 sophisticated tactics to get them off the
21 rolls -- are we in Russia or America?
22 Q. Are you aware of the fact that
23 Mr. Papale's office has published five
24 notices in the Times-Picyune asking people
25 to please let his office know when they
26 change address? Are you aware of that?
27 MR. MORIAL: I want to
167
1 interpose something only for the record
2 with regard to those notices. That those
3 notices were placed in the record as a
4 response to the City Council resolution
5 which pointed out to Mr. Papale that it was
6 within the law to provide for change of
7 address cards and that the records will
8 show that's never been done in the past.
9 MR. HABANS: I object to
10 counsel interrupting with a speech.
11 THE COURT: That's right.
12 Hold it. You'll get your chance.
13 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
14 Q. You are aware of the fact that
15 Mr. Papale has just published five notices
16 in the Times-Picyune asking all registered
17 voters to please notifiy his office of
18 change of address?
19 A. Like I stated earlier, the
20 greatest amount of my concentration has
21 been in the projects, the housing project.
22 Like I stated earlier, they do not throw
23 the paper in those projects. For a citizen
24 on Desire and Benefit Street, they don't
25 throw the newspaper. How are they going to
26 read the notice?
27 Q. If your voter registration
efforts which are laudable, sir, don't you
2 believe it's a good idea if when they move
they should change their address that so
4 the registration remains current?
5 A. I think it's a good thing to let
6 folks know if they move to •notifiy the
7 Registrar of Voter. But my point I'm
8 raising to you is many folks are challenged
9 by the Registrar of Voters and they have
10 not moved. Prior to the 1965 Voting Right
11 Act there was little or no challenge of the
12 registration rolls. So the challenge has a
13 racial intention. Because why is this a
14 great challenge since the Voting Right Act
15 passed prior to that when they had 15 or
16 20,000 blacks on the roll. There was no
17 serious attempt to until the rolls
18 increased to the point blacks would win
19 eleilitions. Everybody wants to challenge
20 the rolls. And Mr. Papale's challenge have
21 racial intents, racial motivation. I've
22 followed his activity since he's been a
23 Registrar of Voter, 17 .years. I know his
24 tactic.
25 Q. Mr. Galmon, when you use the term
26 , challenge you're referring to the same
27 wording that I read to you which says if
1 your name and address are the same as those
2 appearing on the face you may destroy . this
3 card or keep it as confirmation of your
4 registration. You consider that a
5 challenge, don't you?
6 A. I consider anything that you send
7 to a person questioning whether he lives at
8 a certain address as a challenge.
9 MR. HABANS: I have no
10 further questions.
11 THE COURT: You can step
12 down.
13 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, no
14 further questions. Thank you. I'd like to
15 call the Director of Property Management
16 for the City of New Orleans, Irma Dixon.
17 IRMA DIXON, 8610 Oak Street,
18 New Orleans, Louisiana, on Monday, July 20,
19 1987, after having been first dlly sworn to
20 tell the truth, the whole truth, and
21 nothing but the truth, was examined and
22 testified as follows:
23 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
24 Q. Good afternoon. Your name?
25 A. Irma Muse Dixon.
26 Q. And •your business address?
27 A. 1300 Perdido, City Hall.
1 Q. What is your position?
2 A. I'm the Director of Property
3 Management for the City of New Orleans.
4 Q. Could you tell the Court what the
5 responsibility of that office includes?
6 A. Gosh, it's vast. However, we are
7 responsible for relocating, moving office
8' space, we're in charge of all the movable
9 property. We handle all the cemeteries,
10 yaht harbor.
11 Q. In connection with those
12 responsibilities, does it include being
13 responsible for providing an office space
14 for the Registrar of Voters office?
15 A. Yes, it does.
16 Q. Did there come a time sometime in
17 1986 where it became necessary to relocate
18 the Registrar of Voters Office?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you recall around when that
21 took place?
22 A. I think the initial conversations
23 between -- well, some correspondence had
24 touched my office between Mr. Papale and
25 Kirt Steiner, my immediate supervisor, then
26 the CAO, began around April or May of last
27 year, 1986.
1 Q. When was a determination made
2 that, in fact, his office would be
3 relocated?
4 A. I think our final determination
5 was sometime in October.
6 Q. Uh-huh (affirmative). And did
7 you notifiy him that he would have to
8 relocate?
9 A. We began some correspondence back
10 and forth and there were telephone
11 conversations. However, Mr. Papale
12 requested that we not move him until after
13 the November 4th primary. And that was
14 approved by Mr. Steiner.
15 Q. He requested at one time that you
16 all not move him until after the November
17 4th prinary rather?
18 A. Right. Because of all the
19 confusion and what have you.
20 Q. And you all complied with his
21 request and allowed him not to move?
22 A. For that time frame, yes.
23 Q. Do you have any correspondence
24 indicating --
25 A. I've got a couple of memos from
26 Mr. Steiner to Mr. Papale or Mr. Papale to
27 Mr. Steiner and it mainly involves, I
1 guess, what you call some of the purposes
2 of why they didn't want to move. It was.a
3 process. Because Mr. Papale had indicated
4 there were some reasons why they should not
5 move from that location and it would be a
6 Cumbersome problem to try to move through
7 the November 4th election with he and his
8 staff going through some disarray.
9 Q. Did he mention to you that there
10 would be any problem complying with a
11 canvass of voters?
12 A. No, unless he calls it something
- 13 else,.I can tell you. One had to do with
14 the Lektriever and the problem with moving
15 it and wherever they were moving it we had
16 to make sure that the surface could hold
17 it. One had to do with.the computer
18 because they were putting a lot of' the
19 thick books onto the computer files and he
20 thought it could be completed by then. If
21 not, they thought they would work through.
22 One had to do with telephones and other
23 things. Remember, November 4th was the
24 primary. The election was sometime in
25 January.
26 Q. You're speaking 7.-
27 A. Or was it December?
1 Q. There was a November 4th runoff,
2 a federal election for the United States
3 Senate?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. And there was a special
6 proposition election in January?
7 A. In January. That's the ,one I'm
8 speaking of. We tried to make it all
9 ready, the area, and have everything in
10 place for that January election. The only
11 thing we fell down was some of the
12 telephones. We were able to work that
13 through. They were very cooperative.
14 Q. According to your understanding,
15 Ms. Dixon, when, in fact, did his office
16 move or when was the space available for
17 him to move in?
18 A. Space was available in December
19 and ready about December. They were in by
20 the 31st of December. I can say that.
21 Q. So in other words, you all made
22 allowances and provided for his office the
23 space that was necessary in City Hall prior
24 to January 1?
25 A. - As much as possible. But
26 remember, they were not totally up and
27 operating. There were still a few things
174
1 that needed to be done, yeah, as far as I
2 remember.
3 Q. You indicated that Mr. Papale
4 opposed the move, he opposed moving?
5 A. Yeah, from what I understand,
6 yes. He didn't want to move from what
7 is -- Perdido location. It was handicapped
8 accessible and various other things that
9 were requirements by the law.
10 Q. And handicapped accessibility was
11 also included here at City Hall, though?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 MR. MORIAL: further
14 questions at this time.
15 THE COURT: Cross?
16 CROSS EXAMItATION BY MR. HABANS:
17 Q. 'Gcod afternoon, ma'am?
18 A.
19 Q. WI,en Mr. Papale's office was at
20 823 Perdido, is it not true there was a
21 substation at City Hall, do you recall
22 that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that substation, I believe,
25 had one or two computer terminals?
26 A. That's absolutely right.
27 Q. That station was used for
1 whatever work needed to be done at City
2 Hall and also for the convenience to come
3 to City Hall?
4
5
A. Exactly.
Q. When Mr. Papale's office was -
6 when the decision was made to move Mr.
7 Papale, that was a decision made by the
8" city administration; is that correct?
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
A. I don't know who the decision was
made by, but I got my orders from Mr.
Steiner.
Q. Not from Mr. Papale?
A. No.
Q. He didn't ask you to move him?
A. No.
Q. You then put into effect, as
17 Property Manager, put into effect the
18 orders of the Chief Administrative Offioer
19 of the city?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And in the process of doing that,
22 obviously any move entails coordination of
23 different functions; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Space to be found for Mr.
26 Papale's office; is that correct? He
27 didn't move into the substation. He moved
2
3 *
into new space?
A. Yes.
Q. And that new space did not
4 already have installed computer hookups?
5 A. No, it did not.
6 Q. For the Commissioner of Election
7 system in Baton Rouge, did it?
8 A. No, it did not.
9 Q. That had to be installed over a
10 period of time?
11 A. Yes, it did.
12 Q. Do you remember some major delays
13 occasioned by the telephone company
14 insisted on at least 60 days notice to
15 install the telephone hookups?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And also the Commissioner of
18 Elections had some very specific rules,
19 does he not, that prohibited anyone other
20 than his staff from actually coordinating
21 the installation of computers; is that
22 true?
23 A. I'm not familiar with that.
24 Q. You're not familiar with that?
25 A. No.
26 Q. In fact, do you recall that it
27 was not until March, I believe, March 16th
177
r".) •
1 of 1987 before Mr. Papale's office was back
2 up in the sense of having all,
3 approximately eight or so, computer
4 terminals operating and functional?
5
6
A. I would not know that, sir.
Q. You were aware that they had
7 problems with the computers during the
8 move?
9
10
11
A. Right, and .I acknowledge that.
Q. And for months afterwards?
A. I don't know about months
12 afterwards. We communicated a little bit
13 with Mr. Papale's office. And as I
14 indicated, they were in a state of disarray
15 and they had to get settled again. But
16 they were able :o work through the January
17 election by usilg the same two computers
18 that I just spoce about. It was up to my
19 staff and then lome of his staff to try to
20 work it out. I personally was not aware of
21 how long it took.
22 Q. Did your staff cooperate with Mr.
23 Papale's office fully?
24 A. Yes, we did.
25 Q. Did Mr. Papale's office cooperate
26 fully?
27 A. Yes, he did.
178
1 Q. Everybody did everything they
2 could do to try to get everything back in
3 operation as quickly as possible?
4
5
6
A. Once we got an order, yes.
Q. Beg your pardon?
A. When you've got a directive or
7 order that you have to do something within
8 this time frame, you work and try to get it
9 done, yes.
10
11
12
13
14
Q. Sure. With respect to the move
itself, was that done for budgetary
reasons?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. The city is short on money and
15 did not want to pay rent on the previous
16 main office •of the Registrar of Voters?
17 A. Not only that office. Many
18 offices we are relinquishing. We' re doing
19 what we can, yes. It is no big news that
20 we were in financial restraints at that
21 time.
22
23 Papale's office did to make him blameworthy
24 for the move. It was an economic reality
25 of life?
26 A. Right. It was very expensive,
27 the 823 address.
Q. And that wasn't anything that Mr.
179
1 Q. And he was brought back to City
2 Hall?
3 A. And the satellite office was
4 merged with his office.
5 Q. Reduced by one, at least the
6 Registrar's Office is right downtown.
7 A. Exactly.
8 Q. Now, when the move itself was
9
10
11
12
13 A. No, sir. We could not afford
14 that.
15
16
17 A. No, sir, not totally.
18 Q. How did you do?
19 A. He paid for a company to move his
20 Lektriever and we moved a lot of the
21 furniture.
22 Q. Regular staff people at City
23 Hall?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Are these professional movers
26 with professional training in how to move
27 things and how to put it back up?
accomplished, did the city hire some
professional moving operation company and
such to physically relocate Mr. Papale so
as it's one of these Turn Key jobs where
Q. When you moved in was everything
where it was supposed to be?
180
1 A. All I can tell you is they've
2 moved several people throughout several
3 times and they've got the experience.
4 don't know about how professional you need
5 to be to move people, but they were
6 experienced.
Q. Did you learn from Mr. Papale or
8 his staff did you learn from M. Papale
9 or his staff that there was a great deal of
10 difficulty unpacking and getting things
11 where they were supposed to be and getting
12 the computers hooked up after the move?
13 A. No, I didn't. I mean, had a
14 contact person in my office, but no, I
15 don't know exactly how long it took him to
16 unpack everything and get situated.
17 mean, we provide the space, we gave him
18 assistance, and beVore I knew it, they were
19 up and operating.
20 Q. And are you aware of the fact
21 that Mr. Papale had asked for permission
22 not to be moved until after the January
23 17th election?
24 A. I want to say yes, but all I know
25 is he didn't want to move prior to the
26 November primary. I can recall that. The
27 November election -- it was November 4. I
1 don't know about January.
2 Q. Well, I know you've testified
3 that permission was granted, I believe, to
4 delay the move until after?
5 A. Right, November 4th. That's what
6 we were told, yeah. But I didn't recall
7 getting anything or discussing with Mr.
8 Papale after January.
9 Q. You personally don't recall
10 permission being denied to Mr. Papale to
11 delay his move until after January 17th?
12 A. I didn't hear the question.
13 Q. You personally weren't involved
14 in the process of refusing Mr. Papale'
15
16 A. No, I was not.
17 MR. HABANS: That's all I
18 have.
19 THE COURT: Step down.
20 Thank you.
21 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor,.
22 Hazel Reed. If she testifies, she'll
23 testify to the fact that she was on the
24 purge list that was published in the
25 Times-Picyune May 7th, 1987, that her vote,
26 in fact, was challenged. She lives in the
27 9th ward of this city. That she has not
request to wait until after January 17th?
182
1 since been included on that purge list
2 which was, in fact, wiped out by the
3 earlier court judgment and declared null.
4 She has not done anything to her
5 registration to keep it in line. She would
6
7 irregularity from M. Papale's office, and
8 as such, her right to franchise is being
9 challenged, and she would be irreparably
10 harmed if she were to be challenged as well
11 as the fact that she, along with the 8,000
12 or so, whatever the number of other folks,
13 would be required then to do certain
14 affirmative acts prior to September 24th,
15 1987 in the event they want to participate
le in the election.
11 MR. HABANS: Your Honor, I
might have a question or two on cross if
that's the direct. I'll stipulate that she
2C) would say that. If Mr. Morial says that,
21 I'm happy to accept it. I would like to
22 ask her one or two other questions. I
23 might add, and apparently Mr. Morial at
24 8:57 this morning amended the petition to
25 name three other persons he alleges to be
26 voters. I assume Ms. Reed is one of them.
27 We were handed this just a few minutes ago.
be subjected to receiving a card of
183
1 It was never served. I don't know if this
2 is the part of the case - ••••
3 THE COURT: Is that an
4 amendment?
5 MR. MORIAL: It's an
6 amendment and it's all it does - MID
7 THE COURT: Did you get
8 approval to file it?
9 MR. MORIAL: All it does is
10 add in place of John Doe.
11 THE COURT: Did you get
12 approval, court approval to file that?
13 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, I
14 received -- there's no signed order to the
15 amended petition.
16 THE COUhT: I don't know if
11 it's before 'me. You ctin't amend a petition
18 like that without gett%ng court approval.
19 MR. HABANS: But if she
20 were -
21 THE COURT: He's called her
22 and he's stipulated to what she's testified
23 on direct.
24 MR. HABANS: I would be
25 happy to say she would be --
26 MR. MORIAL: Subject to
27 redirect.
184
• • :
1 THE COURT: Do you want to
2 cross her? When you start crossing her
3 it's going to give him the right to ask
4 questions on redirect if he wants to ask
5 them.
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15 Q. Ms. Reed
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What is your address, please?
18 A. 5930 Kensington Blvd., New
19 Orleans.
20 Q. Now, I understand according to
21 what we've agreed that Mr. Morial has
22 stated what you were going to say. You
23 heard what he spoke?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is that substantially accurate,
26 or do you have any changes?
27 A. No changes, no.
MR. HABANS: I understand.
Yes, Your Honor.
HAZEL REED, 5930 Kensington
Blvd., New Orleans, Louisiana 70127, on
Monday, July 20, 1987, after having been
first duly sworn to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
examined and testified as follows:
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
r>. •
10
1 Q. Then ma'am, I understand you're
2 in Ward 9?
3 A. Yes, I am.
4 Q. And you received at least one
5 card from Mr. Papale's office?
6 A. Actually,I don't recall receiving
7 any.
No cards at all?
9 A. No.
Q. You learned that your name was in
11 the Times-Picyune listed as voters whose
12 named may be taken from the rolls?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Have you voted within four years?
15 A. Yes, I have.
Q. When you learned, did you 16
17 personally read in the newspaper or did
18 someone tell you that your name was on the
19 rolls?
20 A. No. Someone called me and told
21 me.
22 Q. Do you know who that was?
23 A. My sister.
24 Q. Are you aware of the fact that
25 that required you to then give evidence to
26 the Registrar of Voters where you are
27 ' •living so that your name could stay on the
186
1 voter rolls?
2 A. I don't recall exactly what she
3 said. She just called to tell me. And I
4 think at that point I just immediately
5 called the office.
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
Q. Called what office?
A. The Registrar's Office.
Q. What were you told?
A. That I would have to come to the
office on Perdido Street and change my
address.
Q. Had you moved any time recently?
• 13 A. I had moved. I'd like to add
14 also that it had not been too long before
15 that and we still maintain our other home.
16 We did not sell it or ren1 it out or
17 anything. We still had ot.r other property.
18 Q. You --
19 A. Yes, we still.
20 Q. But you weren't living there?
21 • A. No. •
22 Q. You had moved your residence from
23 one location to another?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Was it within the same ward?
26 A. Within the same ward.
27 Q. Now, when you were told by the
1 Registrar that all you had to do was come
2 down to their office and change your
3 address, did you do that?
4 A. No, I did not do it. I can't
5 remember at the moment any specific
6 reasons. But I know that for about the
7 three days after that I had several
8
9 had planned to to. And I know within a
10 two-week period of that filing that I
11 didn't see any time that I'd be able to do
12 that. I also asked if my husband could do
13 it for me, I recall, because his name was
14 on it, also.
15 Q. Ms. Reed, is it fair to say that
16 it was inconvenient at that time for you to
17 do so?
18 A. Very inconvenient.
19 Q. What counsel has represented that
20 you would say, that you would be
21 irreparably harmed. My question to you is
22 there any reason today, ma'am, when we're
23 finished in a couple of minutes why you
24 couldn't walk the 250 yards to the
25 Registrar's Office which is in City Hall, a
26 building that's almost next to this
27 building. Is there some reason you
appointments and then I had a trip that I
188
1 couldn't take five minutes to -
2 A. If I can get to my car and put
3 more money in my meter. I'm watching the
4 clock.
5 Q. If you don't get there it's going
6 to cost you the same ticket either way and
7 then you could take your time and walk over
8 to the Registrar. Any reason why you
9 couldn't do that today?
10 A. Any reason why I can't do it
11 today?
12 Q. Yes, ma'am.
13 A. I hadn't planned on doing it. I
14 hadn't given it any thought. It's kind of •
15 difficult for.me to answer. I have to go
16 my son up from camp, and it's not in
11 my , plans.
18 MR. MORIAL: Excuse me. May
19 i please the Court, an additional witness
20 who's an elected official who can make it
21 here for 3:00 o'clock to testify, he's the
22 member of the House and Governmental
23 Affairs for the legislative intent. I'm
24 trying to get court permission. If the
25 Court wants to ask him to come now or -
26 THE COURT: This lady's not
27 going to be much longer. If you're going
189
1 to have another witness, that witness may
2 be in the same category. You can stipulate
3 to that testimony the same -as hers. Why
4 don't you bring him on down.
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
6 Q. So, Ms. Reed, what you're telling
7 this Court is that it might be a little
8 inconvenient for you to have to go correct
9 your address with the Registrar of Voters,
10 but that you would not be irreparably
11 harmed by everything to do so; is that
12 correct?
13 A. I don't suppose that I would be
14 irreparably harmed. It was a little bit'
15 embarrassing to have my name in the paper
16 since I have been in the pass few years
17 along with my husband involved in a lot of
18 political activities and voter
19 registration. And it was a little
20 embarrassing for me.
21 .9. You didn't bother to change your
22 address when you moved with the Registrar
23 of Voters even though the law requires you
24 to do it?
25 A. No, I did not.
26 MR. MORIAL: I have
27 redirect.
190
7,•
1 THE COURT: All right.
2 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
3 Q. Ms. Reed, were it not for the
4 fact that your sister had called you, would
5 you know to this day that your name was on
6 that purge list?
7 A. No, I would not, unless someone
8' else had told me, no.
9 . Q. You yourself received.no direct
10 notification?
11 A. No, I did not.
12 THE COURT: Did you live in
13 a project a,t the time?
14 THE WITNESS: Beg your
15 pardon?
16 THE COURT: You were living
17 in a project?
18 THE WITNESS: No, I never
19 have.
20 THE COURT: Why couldn't the
21 Times-Picyune come to your house?
22 THE WITNESS: He does
23 deliver, but it's just I did not read the
24 paper on that particular day.
25 THE COURT: You didn't read
26 it. You had access to the paper?
27 THE WITNESS: Normally I
1 dcn't read the paper during the week.
2 THE COURT: You had the
3 paper.
4
5 Q. Do you normally, read the legal
6
7 A. No, I did not.
8 Q. Do you know what part of the
9 paper the legal notices are in?
10 A. I believe I might have seen them
11 at soma point or another. But I don't pay
12 any particular attention.
13 Q. They're in the back of the paper
14 near the real estate records.
15 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor,
16 have no further questions.
17 THE COURT: You can step
18 down. Thank you.
19 MR. HABANS: Your Honor in
20 view of the fact that we've been going all
21 morning, could we have a very, very quick
22 break.
23 (SHORT RECESS WAS TAKEN)
24 MR. HABANS: Your Honor, if
25 I may, I call Representative Bruneau out of
EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
notice section of the paper?
26 turn.
27 THE COURT: Yeah.
192
1 CHARLES EMILE BRUNEAU, JR.,
2 Ste. #4, 5534 Canal Blvd., New Orleans,
3 Louisiana 70124, on Monday, July 20,
4 1987, after having been first duly sworn to
5 tell the truth, the whole truth, and
6 nothing but the truth, was examined and
7 testified as follows:
8 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
9 Q. Please give the Court your full
10 name, sir?
11 A. My name is Charles Emila Bruneau,
12 Jr.
13 Do you hold an elective office,
14 sir?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. What is that office?
17 A. I am a State Representative for
18 District 94 in the Louisiana Housa of
19 Representatives.
20 Q. District 94, is that in the
21 Parish of Orleans?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. In addition to holding elected
24 office, what other occupation or profession
25 are you in?
26 A. I am an attorney by vocation.
27 Q. Mr. Bruneau, do you know
1 anything -- withdrawn. Would you tell the
2 Court before I ask you that question what
3 positions you have held in the area of
4 election laws or anything related to the
5 area of election and voter qualification?
6 A. All right. .Prior to my election
7 to the legislature I served on retainer
8 basis during sessions of legislature as
9 counsel for the House of Representatives on
10 part time-basis. In that capacity I
11 participated in and was the chief drafter
12 of Louisiana open election law which was
13 approved by the Justice Department, I
14 believe, in 1973 or '74 or thereabouts.
15 Subsequent to-my election to the
16 legislature I was appointed by then speaker
11 Mr. Henry to the House and Governmental
18 Affairs Committee. I was reappointed to
19
20 reappointed again to that by present
21 speaker Mr. Olario. In my capacity as a
22 member of the committee I have served on a
23 number of commissions and subcommittees
24 with respect to elections. In 1976 a
25 committee was formed called the Election
26 Reformed Committee and I served as
27 appointed member of that. That was
that by former speaker Hainkel and was
194
1 composed of citizen public officials and
2 legislators. In the wake of the
3 Moreau-Tonry scandels dealing with
4 congressional election, a special committee
5 to investigate that was created. I served
6 on that committee. I believe I served as
7 the chairman of the House part of the
8 committee. Subsequently, that committee
9 became a. permanent subcommittee of House
10 and Governmental Affairs and I was
11 appointed the chairman of that subcommittee
12 and I continue to be the chairman of that
13 subcommittee. I participated in the
14 drafting and was the lead author of
15 legislation in the late 70's and early 80's
16 dealing with campaign finance which
17 substanticlly revised our campaign finance
18 laws, and I was the chairman of the House
19 Committee on reapportionment in the early
20 80's and handling the reapportionment of
21 the House. Additionally, I serve on the
22 committee which did the reapportionment of
23 the United States Congress.
24 Q. Mr. Bruneau, were you the author
25 or sponsor of legislation in .the 1986
26 regular session involving an omnibus act
27 relating to the Louisiana Election Code?
2
3
4
A. Yes, sir, I. was. May I elaborate
on that?
Q. Please.
A. In my capacity as chairman of the
5 election subcommittee we hold hearings
6 every year and the open public hearings
7 request participation from all people
involved in the electoral process, the
9 Clerks of Court, the Registrars, the State
10 Board of Supervisors, the League of Women
11 Voters, anybody that expresses an interest
12 in the election process. We hold hearings
1.3 and invite them to come to participate and
14 to give testimony. The result of that is
15 usually we come up with a series of pieces
16 of legislation. One piece is referred to
17 an omnibus bill, that is, a bill that
18 covers many sections of the electoral code.
19 Q. I direct your attention to what
20 was then Act 669 of the 1986 legislative
21 session which has been implemented under
22 the Revised Statute as 192 of Title 18
23 which is the Election Code, Mr. Bruneau.
24 And I'm going to show you the book out of
25 the Revised Statute including 192, Mr.
26 Bruneau. Take a look at that please and I
27 would like to ask you some questions.
Okay? Are you familiar with Section 192?
2 A. Yes, I am.
3 Q. Can you tell us whether or not
4 the act of the legislature did anything to
5 change the language existing prior to the
6 1986 legislative session?
7 A. Prior to the session there was no
8 provision as to when the canvass should
9 start. And there was a great differ
10 amongst Registrars as to when it should
11 start. So that legislation provided that
12 it would start in January of this year.
13 Q. Are you testifying, sir, that was
14 the intent of the legislature by enacting
15 the words or adding the words "in January"
16 to the existing statute?
17 A. Yeah. The purpose of it is to be
18 sure that it's done every year and it's
19 done basically as ministerial duties and
20 they should start as soon as they can each
21 year.
22 Q. Now, the essence of the act
23 itself, that is, the act provides that
24 Registrars shall canvass one-fourth of the
25 precincts of every parish annually; is that
26 correct, sir?
27 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
197
•VS.
1 Q. It also provides that every four
2 years the Registrar should finish his
3 .canvassing of all precincts in each parish;
4 is that part of the act, sir?
5 A. Yeah. What the act contemplates
6 is that you will canvass every voter within
7 the parish at least once in a four-year
8 period.
9 Q. If you were to tell us what the
10 legislative intent was as far as the thrust
11 of the statute, the essence of the statute,
12 what was the intent of the legislature in
13 •.. that regard.
14 MR. MORIAL: Object. I
15 think what is at issue here is the
16 legislative intent of Act 669, the change
17 in the law.
18 THE COURT: What was your
19 question?
20 MR. HABANS: I'm questioning
21 him particularly the re-enacting part of
22 669 what the thrust of 192 A-1 is and it
23 goes to whether or not the thrust of the
24 statute is directory or mandatory and
25 whether or not any term of the statute is
26 directory or mandatory.
27 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, in
198
• 1 getting to the discussion regarding
2 mandatory and directory he is asking for
3 legal conclusions that are within the
4 province of the Court to make.
5 THE COURT: Well, I think he
6 can testify to legislative intent. He
7 certainly has a right to do that.
8 MR. MORIAL: Legislative
9 intent does not involve whether statutes
10 are mandatory or directory. I would
11 suggest that legislative intent refers -
12 THE COURT: Stick with the
13 legislative intent.
14 MR. HABANS: My argument was
15 addressed to you, not with the witness.
16 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
17 Q. Mr. Bruneau, with respect to
18 Section 192 A-1 of the Election Code, in
19 Revised Statute Title 18, what is the
20 essence of the thrust of that particular
21 section as far as the legislative intent?
22 A. Well, as far as my intent and
23 what I perceive to have been the intent of
24 the committee, because that's the way that
25 I explained it is that you shall have a
26 voter canvass every year. That's number
27 one. Number two, that you shall cover
199
I one-fourth of the voters in your area.
2 Number three, that you should start in
3 January of each year to do it.
4 Q. Was it the intent of the
5 legislature, Mr. Bruneau, that if a
6 Registrar for any reason cannot start and
7 finish --
8 MR. MORIAL: Objection.
9 He's posing a leading question to this
10 witness. This witness is intelligent.
11 THE COURT: Rephrase the
12 question.
13 MR. HABANS: Your Honor
14 ,without posing the hypothet, I don't know
15 how to ask the question. My purpose is to
16 ask him what the intent of the legislature
17 was in a situation where a Registrar didn't
18 start and finish --
19 MR. MORIAL: Objection.
20 He's giving the answer to the witness.
21 MR. HABANS: I'm not giving
22 the answer.
23 THE COURT: I don't know how
24 he can lead him until you qualify him as an
25 expert, and I don't know how you can do
26 that. I think you're going to give him the
27 facts of this case, and he certainly knows
200
the facts of this case already.
2 MR. HABANS: Yes, Your
3 Honor. I'm not suggesting an answer.
4 think that's the sense of leading.
5 THE COURT: Yeah. It's
6 difficult considering the position he's in
7 as a legislator and he was on the
8. committee. Ask the question and we'll see
9 what happens.
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
11 Q. What was the legislative intent
12 in •a situation where a Registrar did not
13 finish the canvass in January?
14 MR. MORIAL: Object to that
15 question because the legislature it
16 evidenced no intent where they, didn't speak
17 • to the issue which is presented therein.
18 TEE COURT: You can limit it
19 to that, to his intent as a member of that
20 committee. What was his intent in the
21 . preparation of this act.
22 MR. MORIAL: I would only -
23 THE COURT: You're going to
24 have the same thing. You are going to have
25 the identical situation.
26 MR. MORIAL: I understand.
27 I want to say for the record that we'd
1 simply object to that sort of an opinion
2 testimony. I think that the legislator
3 can't give opinion testimony..
4 THE COURT:' I'm not telling
5 him to give opinion testimony. I'm telling
6 him he is expressing his personal intent as
7 a member of that committee at the time that
8 this proposed legislation came before the
9 committee. I certainly think he can
10 express legislative intent in that regard
11 without worrying about opinion testimony.
12 THE WITNESS: Could we go
13 back and hear the question again, -please?
14 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
15 Q. Sure. Mr. Bruneau, the question
16 is -- first off, let me ask you this: What
17 was your role with respect to the bill that
18 included Section 192?
19 A. In my capacity as the chairman o
20 that subcommittee was the lead author of
21 that bill.
22 Q. You sponsored the bill for
23 adoption; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, sir. I handled it in the
25 House Committee, I handled it on the House
26 floor, and I handled it in the Senate
27 Committee.
202
1 Q. May I ask you this, sir? In that
• 2 capacity, what did you understand the
3 legislative intent to be with respect to
4 the enforcement of that law in a situation
5 where a Registrar of a parish was unable to
6 complete the canvass in January of that
7 year?
8 A. Well, then he should complete it
9 as soon as possible. The purpose of the
10 canvass law is, and you really have to talk
11 about the purpose of legislation in order
12 to explain what the intent is. But the
13 purpose of the law is to be sure that when-
14 people register at a certain address that
15 they're still living at that address. The
16 reason for that is that •we often vote by
17 district. If you don't reside where you
18 say you reside then you are diluting the
19 votes of people who actually do reside in
20 that district.
21 Q. Mr. Bruneau, was there anything
22 racial that motivated the passing of that
23 bill as far as you know?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. Was that a consideration at all
26 of any legislature that you know of who
27 promoted their bill?
203
2
A. No, sir.
MR. HABANS: Thank you.
3 Please answer their questions, Mr. Bruneau.
4 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
5 Q. Mr. Bruneau, where did you attend
6 law school?
7 A. I went to Loyola University.
8 Q. And that was when Mr. Papale was
9 Dean?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. You all have a close
12 relationship?
. 13 A. I would not define it as such,
14 no, sir.
15 Q. You've referred --
16 A. In fact, the only "D" I ever got
17 in law school was from Mr. Papale.
oi•
18 Q. You got a I'D"? Mr. Bruneau,
19 you've referred to htm on occasion as your
20 mentor?
21 A. No, sir, I don't think that's
22 correct.
23 Q. You don't recall saying that?
24 A. No, sir. I may have said that as
25. to when I introduced him before the
26 election committee, someone who I have
27 respect for as I would for anyone who has
204
'•,'
,7)
1 spent most of his lifetime devoted to
2 public service and whom I know. I've also
3 referred to Ms. Janet Mary Riley as one of
4 my mentors who was a teacher in law school
5 when I went in, along with Judge Redmann
6 and Mr. Taggert (phonetic) and Dennis
7 Rousee (phonetic) and any number of other
8 whom I have respect for. When you give of
9
10
11
yourself as an educator, that's really a
call above and beyond what one would
normally do for his fellow man.
12 Q. But everybody can make mistakes,
13 even those people you have high respect
14 for?
15 MR. HABANS: Objection.
16 Argumentative.
17 THE COURT: Argumentative.
18 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
19 Q. Mr. Bruneau, Act 669 of 1986 you
20 all changed the law to require, and I think
21 the law reads that the canvass shall be
22 conducted in January, correct?
23 MR. HABANS: Objection.
24 That's a misstatement of the law, Your
25 Honor I think counsel can quote the law
26 right.
27 THE COURT: Read the law.
205
1 You got it before you.
2 . THE WITNESS: It's right
3 here. Do you want me to read it, Mr.
4 Morial?
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
6 Q. I'll read it, sir. "In January
7 in each parish the Registrar of Voters
shall annually canvass the names of the
9 registrants in one-fourth of the precincts
10 in the parish so that all of the names of
11 the persons registered in each parish shall
12 be canvassed at least once every four
13 years. Is it fair to say that the new
14 language is the language "in January"?
15 A. Well, I think the act speaks for
16 itself as to what changes it makes in the
17 law.
18
19
Q. Based on your recollection?
A. Based on my recollection, yes -
20 Q. In January?
21 A. Wait. You want me to answer your
22 question? You've got to ask the question
23 and don't interrupt me. Could you ask your
24 question again?
25 Q. Is it fair to say that the new
26 language and the only new language added to
27 the sentence I just read are the words "in
206
en,
1 Janutry"?
2 A. I don't know whether that's the
3 only new language or not. I know that the
4 January language was new.
5 Q. So the legislature added language
6 which placed a time period on the time in
7 which Registrars could conduct these
8 canvasses?
9 A. No, sir. As to when the canvass
10 should start, because there was great
11 differ amongst the Registrars as to when it
12 should start and this came out in the
13 election subcommittee. Some Registrars
14 felt that without a month set forth in the
15 law they wouldn't know when it should
16 start. Some did it in January. Some did
17 it in December. Some dii it in the
18 summertime. And it was the opinion of
19 and I believe that might have been a
20
21 Supervisors I'm not positive on that.
22
23 Registrar's Association or the Commissioner
24 of Elections. But the purpose of that was
25 to say that this is when you should get
26 started. ,
27 Q. Okay. Mr. Bruneau, you in
recommendation of the State Board of
It might have been a recommendation of the
207
1 legislature are known for legislative
2 precision, correct?
3 A. Well, I think the record speaks
4 for itself.
5 Q. Would you agree with that you're
6 one known for legislative precision? The
7 act does not mention the word start,
8 correct?
9 A. Mr. Morial
10 Q. Excuse me. Yes or no.
11 A. No.
12
13 right to explain your . answer.
14
MR. HABANS: You have the
THE COURT: He knows that.
15 He can explain any answer he wants.
16 THE WITNESS: May I finish?
17 MR. MORIAL: You may
18 explain.
19 THE WITNESS: It doesn't say
20 start. You're absolutely correct in that.
21 But in any point of time you have to start
22 somewhere and ultimately you have to finish
23 somewhere. And we felt -- I felt that you
24 need to give some directive to people that
25 this is something that you ought to do
26 every year, and the reason why we picked
27 January was two-fold. Number one, it's the
208
1 beginning of the year. And number two,
2 it's usually a slack time for Registrar
3 offices.
4 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
5 Q. It's also a time in the year in
6 advance of what can be referred to as major
7 elections?
8 A. Far in advance, that's right.
9 And that's the third reason. If you have
10 people whose names show up i the canvass
11
12 are still living where they say and they
13 correct their address, they'll be as little
14 inconvenienced as possible.
who •the cards get back and who ultimately
15 Q. There is an election coming up on
16 October the 24th?
1.7 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you're familiar that the law
19 closes the rolls 30 days before then?
20 A. That's right, although -- yeah,
21 that's correct.
22 Q. So it is -- you wouldn't disagree
23 that •one of the essential purposes that the
24 legislature placed the words "in January"
25 in the statute was to insure that
26 canvassing took place in advance of these
27 major elections?
209
1 A. If possible.
2 Q. If possible?
3 A. Sure. Are you suggesting to me
4 if you don't do it during January that it
5 shouldn't be done? Is that what you're
6 asking you me?
7 Q. I think you're on the stand, Mr.
8 Bruneau?
9 A. . I'm trying to determine what
you're asking me, because your question was
not clear.
Q. Well, I was asking you if one of
13 the reasons that the"in January' language
14 was there was because you and the other
15 members of the House and Governmental
16 Affairs Committee were very mindful of the
17 confusion and the inconvenience which
18 results when purges take pliice near major
19 elections?
20 A. Mr. Morial, let mu say this to
21 you: . That bill was about 50 or 60 pages
22 thick and I think that this was one of the
23 very minor provisions in that bill at that
24 time.
25 Q. But it was included?
26 A. Sure it was included in the bill.
27 Q. And the language is "in January"?
1• A. The language speaks for itself,
2 counsel.
3 Q. Correct. I would agree with you.
4 I notice that after the first sentence
5 which we just read there is a sentence
6 which begins.with, "However, commencing in
7 1990 in every fourth year thereafter."
8- Basically such that here in New Orleans in
9 those years where we hold municipal
10 .elections in the spring -
11 A. Right.
12 Q. -- there is no January canvassing
13 requirements?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. Why was that additional
16 requirement added to the Act?
17 A. Because the Registrar's Office
.18 would usually be very busy prior to a major
19 city election.
20 Q. And very busy prior, to a major
21 state election?
22 A. Sure.
23 Q. And there was also some
24 concern --
25 A. May I finish, please? But that
26 doesn't mean that there should be no
27 canvass in that year. That doesn't mean
1 that at all. It just simply means that you
2 won't do it at that time.
3 Q. Now, M. Bruneau, given the fact
4 that we have a major election taking place
5 on October 24th and this canvass to date
6 has not taken place, what would be the
7 relative harm of postponing this canvass
8 until after --
9 MR. HABANS: Objection, Your
10 Honor. I have to object. We're asking
11 about relative harm from a gentleman who's
12 here to testify about the intention of •the
13 legislature and I think counsel is --
14 THE COURT: I don't think
15 he's qualified to answer that.
16 MR. MORIAL: I'll withdraw
17 the question, Your Honor. No further
18 quetl'tions.
19 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr.
20 Bruneau. We get back to you now.
21 MR. MORIAL: Representative
22 Sherman Copeland.
23 REPRESENTATIVE SHERMAN
24 COPELAND, 2016 Delery Street, New Orleans,
25 Louisiana 70117, on Monday, July 20, 1987,
26 after having been first duly sworn to tell
27 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
1 the truth, was examined and
2 testified as follows:
3 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
4 Q. Representative Copeland, could
5 you please tell me what elective office you
6 hold and what area of the city that covers?
7 A. I'm the State Representative from
8 District 99 which is a portion of the 9th
9 ward. It runs from Congress to the St.
10 Bernard parish line to the Mississippi
11 River to the Industrial Canal.
12 Q. Sir, what committees do you serve
13 on in the legislature?
14 A. Serve on House and Governmental
15 Affairs, Ways and Means, Local and
16 Municipal and Health and Welfart!.
17 Q. Sir, in connection with your
18 involvement on the House Commi-ttee on
19 Governmental Affairs, do you rcoall the
20 omnibus bill in 1986?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that was House Bill Number
23 440, I believe Act Number 669?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Do you recall certain provisions
26 of that bill relating to the canvassing of
27 voters by the Registrar of Voters?
213
1 A. Very clearly, yes.
2 Q. Do you recall what additional
3 provisions the Committee added in at that
4 time?
5 A. Well, as Representative Bruneau
6 has stated it was an omnibus bill. It was
7 a lengthy bill. I recall there was two
8
9
10
11
12
issues on my mind, one was the so-called
annual canvass and the other was the
affidavit whereby a person can go in and
two persons signing and you can get
somebody off the rolls and vice versa. I
13 think it takes three persons to sign to get
14 back on. I do remember those provisions,
15 yes.
16 Q. Do you recall the changes that
17 were made to the annual canvassing
18 requirement, the "in January" language I'm
19 referring to?
20 A. Yes. What it did it was expected
21 that the Registrar of Voters shall canvass
22 in January.
23 Q. What is your appreciation of the
24 legislative intent and purpose of adding
25 that language?
26 A. Well, I can speak for my intent
27 and the intent f my colleagues who I think
1 are of the philosophy that I am. Our
2 intent was the Registrar would not have the
3 option or.freedom or luxury, whichever
4 might fit the case, to do a canvass at the
5 time when it was a big election going on
6 because it's disruptive and it, in fact,
7 discourages people from voting that has the
8 opportunity to vote.
9 Q. . The area that you represent is
10 part of the area being canvassed. Are you
11 aware of that?
12 A. Very much aware. I've gotten
13 numerous calls .about it.
14 Q. Those calls have been from
15 constituents?
16 A. Calls from constituents who are
17 very concerned that they may be bumped from
18 the rol3s or they may not be able to vote.
19 People really don't understand this whole
20 canvass deal anyway. At least my
21 constituents have the feeling when you're
22 registered you ought to be registered.
23 People ought to not be trying to take it
24 off. They see it somewhat as a threat. My
25 constituents don't necessarily respond to
26 the mail probably as regularly as some
27 other areas of the city, and I've gotten
1 numerous calls about it.
2 Q. Sir, you heard the testimony of
3 Representative Bruneau?
4 A. Part of it.
5 Q. And did you hear some mention
6 being made that what the legislature
7 intended was that the canvass start in
8- January?
9 A. Yes, I heard that.
10 Q. Do you have an appreciation of
11 the legislative intent that would be other
12 than that?
13. . - A. Yes. .As I said, I can speak. to.r-
14- myself and persons who r guess espouse my
15 philosophy. What we wanted to do was.
16
17
.18
19
abolish the canvass altogether. While
there's value to it, I think put on the
scale it's more of a detriment than a
positive affect. The legislature has
20 compromised. We were somewhat satisfied
21 that we weren't getting everything we
22 wanted. But in January if that canvass
23 would take place it would not have a
24 negative impact on a major state election.
25 I think it's somewhat ridiculous to have a
26 canvass in the middle of a major election
27 getting ready to come up.
1• MR. MORIAL: I have no
2 further questions.
3 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Copeland.
5 Sir, when you say your intent was to or
6 your philosophy was to abolish canvassing
7 altogether, you didn't believe that you
8 were doing that when you voted for 192 A-1?
9 A. I knew very clearly.
10 Q. It was something less than what
11 you wanted, but in your opinion, better
12 than what was there before?
13 A. It was better than what was there
14 before because what it did it removed the
15 option from the Registrar to arbitrarily
16 canvass and it expected that the Registrar
17 had to canvass in January. In January
18 normally we have expected dates that we
19 allow localities of elections and that was
20 not one of the dates.
21 Q. You're aware of the fact that"in
22 January", particularly January 17th of 1987
23 there was an important election involving
24 propositions in New Orleans, aren't you?
25 A. Yes. But in January normally,
26 and I can't give you the dates, but if you
27 check, and I took the liberty to do this
MR. MORIAL: Object. Excuse
interrupt a witness when he's going
III.4111•1
1 before I came here today because I wanted
2 to make sure I had my facts straight. I
3 called counsel for House and Governmental
4 Affairs. I called the research office
5 because one of them wanted to know how did
6 I vote. Even though I was sure, I wanted
7 to be sure. Two, I wanted to know what the
8 intent was of the committee at the time and
9 they're of the opinion that the intent was
10 to prevent --
11 Q. You're here to testify about what
12 your interpretation and your opinion was
13 and --
14
15 me for interrupting. But I need to
16
17 if I thin -
18 THE COURT: What's your
19 objection?,
20
21 state that :I .think his testimony would be
22 proper.
23
24 as he testified as to what his intent was.
25 When he starts testifying what somebody
26 elses intent was, that's pure hearsay.
27 MR. HABANS: Thank you.
•••••••••
MR. MORIAL: I was going to
THE COURT: Proper as long
218
1 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
2 Q. Other than that, do you have
3 anything else you wanted to add?
4 A. Did I answer your question?
5 Q. I thought you gave me more than I
6 wanted. Thank you. Mr. Copeland, you are
7 aware of the fact that the law of Louisiana
8 is one-fourth of all precincts in every
1
9 parish must be canvassed every year; is
10 that correct, sir?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If we accept your interpretation
. 13 of the intent of all of the legislators,
14 . sir, you're aware of the fact that that
15 would mean if.a Registrar didn't finish
16 until February 2nd or February 3rd, for
11 example, then he could not finish the
18 canvass and that it could not be performed
19 at all that year. Do you understand that,
20 sir?
21 A. The law -- if I can, I'll rea4
22 it.
23 Q. Please.
24 A. On Page 349 of the West Law 1986.
25 It says, "In January in each parish the
26 Registrar of Voter can annually canvass
27 one-fourth of the precincts in the parish,"
1 et cetera. If a Registrar starts to
2 canvass in January, there's no way he won't
3 be finished at such time that it would not
4 conflict with the regular major scheduled
5 elections if he canvassed starting in
6 January.
7 Q. The important thing you're saying
8 it's okay to go past January so long as it
9 doesn't .interfere with a major election?
10 A. That's not what I'm saying. I
11 read from the law and it said, "In January
12 in each parish the Registrar can --". I'm
• 13 saying if . -- the normal time it takes -- as
* 14 I understand it from the testimony that
15 came before the committee, if . .41 Registrar
16 would canvass, no matter where he'd be in
17 Louisiana, if he started in January, he
18 would finish in plenty enough time not to
19 run into scheduled dates for elections held
20 by municipalities and/or state elections.
21 Q. Now, sir, if a Registrar, for .
22 whatever reason, doesn't finish in January,
23 is it your interpretation of your
24 legislative intent when you voted for this
25 act that otherwise unqualified voters who
26 remain on the rolls of the parish who would
27 otherwise be purged if the Registrar was
1 allowed to finish the canvass should remain
2 on the rolls and be allowed to dilute the
3 votes of registered voters?
4 A. Your question was somewhat back
5 door and I think -- let me answer the
6 question. If a Registrar starts in
7 January, there's no way he will not be
8 finished. Your question was if I
9 understood what happens if he don't start
• 10 in January?
11 THE COURT: No. He's asking
12 if he starts in January but doesn't finish
• 13 • in January? •
14 THE WITNESS: If he starts
15 in January, there's no way he can't be
16 finished.
17 • THE COURT: In January?
18 rHE WITNESS: If he starts
19 in January, there's no way that the
20 process doesn't take that long.
21 THE COURT: He can complete
22 the canvass in January?
23 THE WITNESS: He can
24 • complete the canvass before a major
25 election.
26 THE COURT: Not necessarily
27 January?
1 THE WITNESS: Well, I think
2 he probably can do it in January. I would
3 say he probably could finish in January,
4 Your Honor. I'm saying that when that
5 testimony came up there were certain dates
6 that the state allowed municipalities to
7 have elections. If a Registrar starts in
8 January, I think there was testimony to the
9 effect that it would take him "X" amount of
10 days. I knew at that time. I don't know
11 the specifics. It wouldn't conflict with
12 major elections. As far as the part of the
13 question relative to -- I think that the
14 citizens would be put in a situation that
15 people are illegally registered and would
16 be voting in an election. I guess there's
17 a philosophical problem. Where I see value
18 to the canvass, as I stated earlier, I
19 think the canvass has a detrimental affect.
20 And it does not necessarily eliminate
21 simply those people who are illegally
22 registered, if you want to put it like
23 that. It has a more far-reaching affect. (
24 I don't think it's the intent of anybody in
25 the legislature to have anybody who's not
26 properly registered to voter.
27 Q. But you're willing to accept that
1 result in order to make sure there's
2 someone who changes their address and
3 doesn't notifiy the registrar still doesn't
4 lose his voter?
5 A. That is not correct. And the
6 reason why, and part of the fallacy in the
7 system, and it's sort of a, I guess, a way
8- of life in certain neighborhoods. If you
9
10
11
12
get a card at your address and that card
goes back, the conclusion reached under the
process is that person doesn't live there.
I can tell you when I first ran that wasn't
13 the case. Because I was out knocking on
14 doors. I was doing my own door-to-door who
15 lived in what area as per the list I got
16 from the Registrar of Voters. Sometimes
17 people do reside. They may not be the head
.18 of the household. It may even be a second
19 family living in a house. There are many,
20 many circumstances. And for that reason
21 alone I simply said I don't think it's a
22 question -- I know it's my intent to say if
23 somebody isn't legally registered, he ought
24 not be allowed to vote.
25 Q. How many members are there?
26 A. 105.
27 Q. And you're only one of those
1 members; is that right?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. - You didn't draft this bill, did
4 you
5 A. I had a very active part in the
6 drafting of it in Committee. I was not, a
7 lead author on it, if that's what you're
8 saying.
9 Q. You're not shown as an author?
10 A. If you understand the legislative
11 process and if you know anything that
12 happens in the House and Governmental
13 Affairs, you would know that Peppie and ,
14 Sherman are advocates for different
15 philosophies when it comes to this. In
16 this particular se3sion this matter came up
17 again, in this particular session.
18 Q. Excuse ma Mr. Copeland. I think
19 we're going beyond the existing law right
20 now. Let me ask you this, sir: No where
21 in here does it say that this annual
22 canvass shall be conducted unless it comes
23 within 30, 60 or 90 days of a major
24 election and nowhere in here does it define
25 major election so as to provide authority
26 ifor your interpretation of what the
27 legislative intent was, does it?
224
1 A. Well, I don't think anywhere in
2 here provides interpretation for what my
3 colleague who testified earlier
4 interpretation was it. The truth of the
5 matter is if that were the case, we
6 probably wouldn't be in court. I think it
7 reads very clear, as clearly as to the what
8 law says. The question -- we're in a
9 situation, I don't know why it happened,
10 but forever reason why Orleans Parish did
11 not canvass for, probably for legitimate
12 reasons. Whatever the reason was, it
13 didn't happen. Now the question is whether
14 or not it should occur and disrupt a major
15 election. All I'm saying to you is when I
16 voted, when we caucused, when we talked
17 about our strategy and our position would
18 be as related to the omnibus crime and
19 those sessions that were important to our
20 constituents, it was our intent if a
21 canvass took place in January we wouldn'.t
22 have that conflict that we're conflicted
23 with now.
24 Q. You said omnibus crime. Did you
25 mean election?
26 A. Yeah. One that Peppie does every
27 year and does a good job.
1 Q. He is the chairman of the
2 committee?
3 A. He's not chairman of House and
4 Governmental. He's the chairman of the
5 committee that put the omnibus bill
6 together, yes.
7 Q. You're speaking today of your
8 perception of your opinion when you voted?
9 A. No, I have not be speaking of my
10 perception of my opinion when I voted for
11 the bill. I've be speaking about the many,
12 many hours that I put in returning the
13 Louisiana legislative black caucus and
14 individuals who support our positions.
15 Q. Therefore you can't speak to the
16 intent of the entire legislature of the -
17 A. I don't think any members can
18 speak of the intent of the entire
19 legislature. I can tell you this: I do
20 speak for the intent
21 Q. Let the record note the pause.
22 A. Let the record reflect that I
23 paused because I don't want to
24 misrepresent. I was counting the
25 individuals on that committee that pretty
26 much vote along the lines that I'm
•MO MID
27 representing. And also the members of the
1 legislature.
2 MR. HABANS: Thank you. No
3 further questions.
4 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, one
5 further redirect.
6 THE COURT: Is it redirect
7 or new direct?
8 MR. MORIAL: Regarding
9 legislative intent, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
12 Q. Okay. Did legislation regarding
13 these same matters come up this session?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And were these same issues
16 considered --
17 MR. HABANS: Excuse me, Your
18 Honor, I have to object. What's happening
19 this session has no betiring on the law
20 that's on the books today.
21 MR. HARTLEY: Leroy Hartley.
22 I was with him prior to cbming this
23 morning. I'd like permission to speak to
24 the Court.
25 THE COURT: On what grounds?
26 MR. HARTLEY: As his
27 personal attorney.
• 1 THE COURT: On what grounds?
2 MR. HARTLEY: On the grounds
3 with respect of the intent of the
4 legislature.
5 THE COURT: We're not
6 interested in the legislature after the
7 enactment of this act.
8 . MR. HARTLEY: If they were
9 legislating what their intent was in the
. 10 1986 Act I think it's relevant to the Court
11 if they discussed the issues, the same
12 issues this session as was discussed last
• 13 session to make sure the members of the
14 • legislature as a whole knew what they
15 passed in '86. It's very relevant.
16 MR. HABANS: Excuse me.
17 There's another issue. Mr. Hartley
18 represents Mr. Copeland who's not a party
19 in this case, Your Honor. He's supposed to
20 be here as a witness.
21 THE COURT: That's right.
22 MR. HABANS: I object to Mr.
23 Hartley addressing the Court.
24 THE COURT: It's a good
25 objection. All right. Mr. Morial.
26 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
27 Q. Just to conclude your testimony
1 today. Is the words "in January" meant
2 that --
3 MR. HABANS: Objection.
4 Leading. Redirect doesn't change the
5 rules, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Don't lead.
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
8 Q. Mr. Copeland, just for the Court,
.9 could you summarize the legislative purpose
10 in intent --
11
12
13 MR. MORIAL: No further
14 questions, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Step down, Mr.
16 Copeland. Mr. Morial, you've got another
17 witness?
18 MR. MORIAL: I think this
19 concludes our testimony, Your Honor, our
20 presentation.
21 THE COURT: Okay. Going to
22 be your case starting tomorrow morning,
23 9:30.
24 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor,
25 could we make it 10:00 only because I have
26 a conference in Federal Court.
27 THE COURT: Well, Federal
THE COURT: Repetitious and
it's not proper redirect examination.
Court's got to follow us. We've got an
2 open case here.
3 MR. MORIAL: Mainly asking,
4 Your Honor, it's somewhat difficult for me
5 to get from place to place.
6 THE COURT: I can't tell
7 this man to limit his examination now
8 because you've got to be in Federal Court
9 tomorrow. It's now 3:20. I usually stop
10 at 3:30. You're going to give this man 10
11 minutes to put his case or.
12 MR. HABANS: With respect to
13 that 10 minutes, I don't want to impose on
14 the Court. A gentleman has come down to
15 authenticate the opinion that he gave. I
16 would respect -
17 THE COURT: You mean to tell
18 me -
19 MR. MORIAL: I will
20 stipulate to the authenticity of the --
21 MR. HABANS: Mr. Morial has
22 objected in other conferences we've had as
23 to who this gentleman was with all the
24 facts he needed to render an opinion.
25 Therefore, I took the liberty to get him to
26 come down. It shouldn't take 10 minutes.
27 THE COURT: Put him on.
1 MR. HABANS: We'd call Mr.
2 Kenneth DeJean.
3 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor,
4 just for the record, we're going to object
5 to Mr. DeJean testifying. The Attorney
6 General's opinion speaks for itself.
7 THE COURT: I don't see how.
8 he can add anything to the opinion. The
9 opinion's been offered in evidence.
10 MR. HABANS: It hasn't been
11 offered.
12 THE COURT: It's going to be
13 offered in evidence. I think he's willing
14 to stipulate.
15 • MR. HABANS: I want to ask
16 this gentleman if he gave thoughtful
17 consideration to all aspects of his
18 interpretation and whether or not it was
19 based on the interpretation of the Act into
20 the contemporaneous interpretation of the
21 Registrars around the state which is all
22 relevant to the --
23 MR. MORIAL: That is like
24 Appellate Court crossing a trial judge as
25 to his opinion.
26 THE COURT: It's like
27 Appellate court deciding a case without
1 reading any briefs or anything else. I
2 don't see how his testimony is going to
3 change anything that you've got in writing.
4 He can't contradict his opinion, that's for
5 sure. And I'm not going to assume he
6 rendered an opinion just out of left field.
7 He had to prepare himself to render the
8 opinion.
9 MR. HABANS: May I ask him
10 to identify these documents and let him go?
11 THE COURT: Certainly.
12 KENNETH C. DE JEAN, P.O. Box
13 94005 : Ba_t-on Rouge, Louisiana 70804, on
14 Monday, July 20, 1987, after having been
15 first duly sworn to tell the truth, the
16 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
17 examined and testified as follows:
18 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
19 Q. Tell the Court and the Court
20 Ri4orter what your position is and how long
21 you've been doing it?
22 A. Chief counsel to the Attorney
23 General. I've been with the Attorney
24 General's Office for 24 years.
25 Q. In matters involving Election
26 Code interpretation, who within the
27 Attorney General's office ordinarily has
primary duty for interpretation?
2 A. Ordinarily Adrian Dupont writes
3 the opinions with respect to elections.
4 Q. With respect to elections, what
5 activity do you participate in?
6 A. With respect to elections I have
7 participated in numerous activities in the
8- Attorney General's office. I review the
9 opinions of all attorneys at this
10 particular time whether they deal with
11 elections or not and give the final
12 release. I supervise the election section.
13 I'm the Attorney Genera.l.'.s designee on the
14 State Board of Election Supervisors. I've
15 served on the Campaign Finance Committee,
16 and have represented numerous Registrars of
17 voters throughout the years.
.18 Q. I ask you to take a look at
19 Defense Exhibit 1, sir.
20 0 MR. MORIAL: My I see it?
21 MR. HABANS: I have a copy.
22 I'll give you a copy.
23 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
24 Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 1?
25 A. Yes, I believe I do.
26 Q. Tell the Court what it is,
27 please?
A. It's a letter dated June 9th,
2 1987 addressed to Attorney General Guste
3 from Mr. A. E. Papale, the Registrar of
4 Voters of Orleans Parish, and it's an
5 opinion request that the Attorney General's
6 Office give advice to Mr. Papale.
7 Q. And in due course did that come
8 to your desk for answer?
9 A. Yes, it did.
10 Q. Did that document have any
11 attachment to it?
12 MR. MORIAL: Object to those
13 attachments because Mr. DeJean is not the
14 writer of any of those attachments and I
15 think in order for them to be properly
16 admitted into evidence the writer of those
17 documents has to take the stand and
18 authenticate them.
19 THE COURT: Technically he's
20 •correct. You didn't write the opinion?
21 THE WITNESS: No, I wrote
22 the opinion.
23
24 regard to information he received, internal
25 memorandum, voters registration
26 MR. HABANS: I'm not
27 offering the exhibits.
MR. MORIAL: Speaking with
1 THE COURT: Go ahead.
2 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
3 Q. Exhibit 2, is that one of the
4 attachments?
5 A. I don't believe. The memorandum
6 of June 4 was an attachment that I
7 received.
8 Q. Exhibit 3, Defense Exhibit 3. Do
9 you recall that as an attachment?
10 A. Yes.
11 THE COURT: That's what, the
12 resolution?
13 THE WITNESS: There's ..a copy
14 of the resolution of the City Council.
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
16 Q. And did you render an opinion in
17 response to Mr. Papale's letter Exhibit 1,
18 formal opinion of the Attorney General's
19 Office?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. I'm going to show you Exhibit .4,
22 sir, and tell me whether or not that's an
23 accurate copy of the original opinion
24 letter drafted by you for the office of the
25 Attorney General, State of Louisiana?
26 A. Without reading each word I think
27 that I would be able to ,say that is an
1 accurate copy of the original that I had
2 rendered to Mr. Papale.
3 Q. Was that the opinion of the
4 Attorney General at the time you wrote that
5 letter?
6 A. Yes, it was.
7 Q. What's the date of the letter,
8 sir?
9 A. June the 15th, 1987.
10 Q. What's the formal attorney?
11 A. 87424.
12 Q. Is that still your opinion today?
13 A. That's correct, it is- -
14 THE HABANS: That's all the
15 questions I have of Mr. DeJean.
16 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. •240RIAL:
17 Q. Mr. DeJean --
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. With respect to this particular
20 opinion letter did you have occasion to
21 review the legislative intent or purpose
22 involved in the change of the law by Act
23 669?
24 A. I didn't go into any of the
25 history involving the legislative adoption.
26 It was primarily an analysis of the
27 language that was confined in the statute.
236
1 . Q. At the time you prepared that
2 particular opinion letter, were you aware
3 of the confusion that had resulted
4 beforehand with regard to the aborted purge
5 attempt.
6 MR. HABANS: Objection to
7 the nonspecific character of the question,
8 Your Honor.
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
10 Q. Talking about the previous
11 litigation that your office was involved
12 in?
13 A. Very generally, sir.
14 Q. You weren't specifically involved
15 in that litigation?
16 A. No, I was not involved. I think
17 Mr. Arthur Phibb of the Attorney General's
18 office in New Orleans represented Mr.
19 Papale.
20 Q. So at the time you prepared your
21 opinion you were not aware that Mr. Papale
22 hadn't even commenced his purge in January,
23 were you?
24 MR. HABANS: Objection. I
25 think that assumes a fact not in evidence.
26 MR. MORIAL: Cross
27 examination.
1 THE COURT: But I think
2 you've got to lay some basis for that
3 question though.
4 MR. MORIAL: The basis is in
5 the record. It's already been admitted by
6 Mr. Papale.
7 THE COURT: I know, but this
8 witness don't know that.
9 MR. MORIAL: Excuse me. I
10 would only suggest that given the fact this
11 is cross-examination, I don't see what
12 foundation I have to lay.
13 THE. COURT: You'd better be
14 more. specific in your questioning then. I
15 don't think the question is worded --
16 MR. HABANS: May I be heard?
17 in the record it will show , that Mr. Papale
18 said they ordered the cards from the
19 Ct*Dramissioner of Election in the month of
20 January which we contend is the beginning
21 of the canvass process. Counsel is saying
22 Mr. Papale admitted not starting in
23 January, and I think that's unfair to
24 state.
25 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
26 Q. Mr. DeJean, were you aware of any.
27 of that?
1 A. Any of what?
2 THE COURT: What he just
3 said, now that we've got it in a position
4 where you might be able to answer it.
5 THE WITNESS: I was aware
6 that there had been litigation because I
7 knew when I got the opinion request. In
8 fact, I think I had sent the opinion
9 request to the New Orleans office and it
10 came back to me because of the New Orleans
11 ' office having been involved in the
12 litigation. And I believe Mr. Warren
13 Mouledoux, the first assistant, referred it
14 back to the Baton Rouge office where I'm
15 located and --
16 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
17 Q. You really had no Rwareness of
18 when the purge commenced or when it didn't
19 commence?
20 A. No, I didn't have aily knowledge
21 of the details of exactly what actions had
22 been taken by the Registrar's Office at
23 what time.
24 Q. Were you under the impression
25 that prior to that there had been
26 compliance with the law, prior to your
27 opinion letter when Mr. Papale wrote you
1 asking for postponement?
2 MR. HABANS: I have to
3 object as to what complies with the law
4 means. We obviously have a dispute as to
5 what the law is. For counsel to ask this
6 witness a question like that, it makes no
7 sense.
8 THE COURT: You're talking
9 about the formal law?
10 MR. MORIAL: Yes. I'm
11 talking about the law with respect, Your
12 Honor.
13 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
14 Q. You had a rare situation where in
15 May the purge was stopped by T.R.O. and
16 permanent injunction. And at that point
17 and time when the request came to you, were
18 you aware of the sequence of events?
19 A. Very vaguely. Very vaguely.
20 Q. Did you have an opportunity to
21 review all of that? You pretty much
22 prepared the opinion by looking at the
23 language?
24 A. That's correct.
25 THE COURT: You interpreted
26 the statute?
27 THE WITNESS: I looked at
240
1 the statute and made my determination from
2 . what the statute contained. And also I
3 might add that because I perceived that it
4 was a very sensitive matter, I ran it
5 through an irregular staff review and
6 several different attorneys reviewed the
7 draft opinion that I had prepared and all
8 concluded that the draft was correct.
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
10 Q. Did the General review it?
11 A. I don't think he specifically
12 reviewed it. The Attorney General himself.
13 did not specifically review it. He may
14 have seen a draft, but I'm not sure.
15 Q. You .don't know?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You wouldn't disagree with me if
18 I told you that he didn't see it?
19 A. I wouldn't.
20 MR. HABANS: Objection,
21 counsel. He said he's not sure.
22 THE COURT: He doesn't know,
23 he can't answer that. Whoever did review
24 it reviewed it from the standpoint of
25 interpreting that statute. They didn't
26 have a memo of all the facts that had taken
27 place up to that point, did they?
1 THE WITNESS: No, Your
2 Honor.
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
4 Q. And they also didn't have with
5 them any review of the legislative intent
6 and history of why, in fact, the law was
7 changed.
8 A. I can't say what Mr. Phibb and
9 what Mr.. Vick and Mr. Mouledoux did and
10 perhaps the Attorney General had available
11 to them.
12 Q. But you yourself did not have any
13 of that available?
14 A. I did not have the details of the
' 15 prior cases and chronology of what had
16 occurred.
17 Q. And the legislative intant or
18 history either?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You didn't have an oppd,rtunity to
21 speak with any legislators?
22 A. No, I didn't talk to any
23 legislators. I didn't listen to any
24 committee tapes, didn't go through any of
25 that.
26 Q. Didn't talk to the staff of the
27 committee or anything of that sort?
242
1 A. No. I think I did speak with Ms.
2 Cynthia Rougeaux (phonetic) who is the
3 staff counsel for the House and
4 Governmental Affairs Committee who used to
5 be my law clerk.
6 MR. MORIAL: I have no
7 further questions.
8- MR. HABANS: No redirect,
9 Your Honor. If the Court please, we have
10
11
12
delivered certain records of the Voters
Registrar's Office which we would. ask Your
Honor to re-allow us to take possession of
13 it.
14 THE COURT: They're original
15 orders.
16 MR. MORIAL: May I make my
17 offer of evidence?
.18 THE COURT: Yeah.
19 MR. MORIAL: In connection
20 with the testimony of all of my witnesses,
21 Your Honor, I'd like to offer, file and.
22 introduce into evidence what has been
23 previously marked as P-1 resolution,
24 R-87-94 of the New Orleans City . Council
25 dated June 4th, 1987. P-3, which is a
26 letter to the Honorable William J. Gust
27 from Mr. Papale dated June 9th, 1987. P-4
1 which is the Act Number 669 of 1986 which I
2 would point out to Your Honor has the title
3 and the body independent in copy. I don't
4 think the title of the Act is included
5 within the statute book in accordance with
6 the Constitution. That's P-4. And I would
7 offer and introduce into evidence those
8 •exhibits on behalf of the plaintiffs.
9 MR. HABANS: No objection,
• 10 Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Do you have an
12 offer?
• 13 • MR. HABANS: I do have an
14 offer. Defense Exhibit 1 identified by Mr.
15 DeJean. Exhibit 3 also identified by Mr.
16 DeJean.
17 THE COURT: That's the
18 resolutiwA?
19 • MR. HABANS: Yes. And 4
20 which was the Attorney General's opinion
21 and Defense Exhibit 7 also referred to as
22 P-2 consisting of the correspondence
23 concerning the move of the Registrar's
24 Office.
25 THE COURT: All right.
26 THE COURT: Let me ask you,
27 Mr. Morial, are you going to need any of
244
1 these records, because there's no sense of
2 them bringing them back if you're not going
3 to have need- for them. -
4 MR. HABANS: We're going to
5 ask Your Honor that these records not be
6 taken apart or the cards out of sequence
7 because these records have to be used by
8 the Registrar's Office in making sure that
9 the next canvass card is accurately done.
10 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, the
11 only thing I want is the first set of cards
12 which were actually mailed out by the
•
13 office.
14 MR. HABANS: What Mr: Morial
15 must not understand even at this late
16 stage, the first set of cards were received
17 by legally and properly registered voters
18 and not returned to the --
19 MR. MORIAL: I want the set
20 that came back.
21 MR. HABANS: That's them.
22 That's what you have right there.
23 0 MR. MORIAL: The first set,
24 they all weren't mailed at the same time.
25 MR. HABANS: We'll stipulate
26 that all -- we will stipulate on behalf of
27 the Registrar of Voters, •Your Honor, that
245
1 the first canvass cards in the 1987 canvass
2 were mailed, placed into the United States
3 Postal Service on February 10, 1987 which
4 is what we've represented in our briefs.
5 MR. MORIAL: I agree to that
6 stipulation. Joint stipulation.
7 THE COURT: Now can they
8 take the cards away and not bring them
9 back?
10 MR. MORIAL: Yes, Your
11 Honor.
12 THE COURT: See y'all
13 tomorrow . at 9:30.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
246
•
1 TUESDAY, JULY 21, 1987
2 MR. HABANS: We call Julie
3 Nagel to the stand, please, Your Honor.
4 JULIA NAGEL, 3210 Memorial
5 Park Drive, #153, New Orleans, Louisiana
6 70114, on Tuesday, July 21, 1987, after
7 having been first duly sworn to tell the
8 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
9 truth, was examined and testified as
10 follows:
11 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
12 Q. Ms. Nagel, tell the Court what
13 your full name is and what your occupation
14 is?
15 A. Julia Cruse Nagel, a Voter
16 Registration Specialist.
17 Q. How long have you worked in the
18 voter registration office, that is, the
19 Office of the Registrar for the Parish of
20 Orleans?
21 A. 14 years.
22 Q. Would you tell the Court what
23 position you first held and how you came
24 Ito belto object} promoted to Voter
25 Registration Specialist?
26 A. I started as a clerk typist one
27 which was strictly a file clerk then. And
247
7
9
1 I got promoted to Deputy one after a year
2 and a half. And from there I went up to
3 Voter Registration Specialist which was a
4 year later.
5 Q. Is it fair to say you worked your
6 way up from. the bottom?
7 A. That's right.
8. Q. How long, tell the Court please,
9 have you been a Vote Registration
10 Specialist within that title within the
11 office?
12 A. About a year and half.
13 Q. And how long, if at all, have you
14 been involved with handling the annual
15 canvassvass of registered voters in
16 one-fourth the precincts?
17 A. Six, seven years.
,18 Q. Would you tell the Court how the
19 wards are selected? That is, the wards in
20 the precincts that are selected for annual
21 canvassvass?
22 A. Broken up we started with the
23 first ward, and what we did, we
24 approximated a fourth of all the precincts.
25 So the first year we canvassed Wards 1
26 through 7, the second one we did the
27 canvass it was 8 and 9, then it was 10
248
1 through 14, and then 15 through 17. And we
2 just repeat the cycle each year.
3 Q. Was any consideration given to
4 the racial composition of any precincts or
5 any ward in selecting which ward or
6 precinct to canvass?
7 MR. MORIAL: Objection.
8 Leading.
9 THE COURT: Don't lead him.
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
11 Q. Please tell the Court whether or
12 not any consideration was given to race,
- 13 .color, sex or any other information about
14 the registered voters in any ward
15 whatsoever.
16 MR. MORIAL: Same objection.
17 THE COURT: You're leading.
18 You're suggesting the answer to her.
19 Canvass you rephrase your question without
20 leading her?
21 MR. HABANS: Yes, Your
22 Honor. I thought whether or not cured
23 that, but if it doesn't, I'll rephrase
24 that.
25 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
26 Q. Ms. Nagel, please tell the Court
27 what considerations are given to which
249
1 wards to canvass each year, if any?
2 A. Just the fact that it was
3 one-fourth of the precincts, and we started
4 with Ward 1. It just happened (to belto
5 object} the first year that the law had
6 been changed from all wards and precincts
7 to one-fourth of the parish.
8 Q. Would you tell the Court, were
9 you present yesterday during the testimony,
10 ma'am?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you hear allegations made by
13 several witnesses that wards are selected?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. Because of the racial
16 composition?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 M. MORIAL: Objection.
19 There were no alLegations. It was factual
20 testimony.
21 THE COURT: There was
22 testimony. He's complaining you used the
23 word allegations.
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
25 Q. Yes. Witnesses allege that was
26 true; is that correct? You heard that
27 testimony?
1
2
3
4
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was that true?
A. No, it wasn't.
Q. Would you tell the Court what
5 consideration, if any, is given to whatever
6 elections are being held in a given year in
7 determining what wards to pull or to
8 canvass?
9 A. None that I know of.
10 MR. MORIAL: Objection.
11 Leading.
12 THE COURT: She already
13 answered it.
14 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
15 Q. Did you have anything to do with
16 the relocation of the Registrar's Office
17 from its other address to City Hall?
18 MR. MORIAL: Objection
19 leading. I think he's got to lay a
20 foundation and I think --
21 MR. HABANS: This is
22 absolutely predicate testimony. If we want
23 to be here all day.
24 THE COURT: His objection is
25 for the leading nature of the questions
26 you're asking.
27 MR. HABANS: What I'm
1 saying, this is harmless predicate.
2 THE COURT: I think it's
3 harmless, too. As long as he makes an
4 objection, I'm going to have to rule on the
5 objection.
6 MR. HABANS: I appreciate
7 that. I will do it the long way.
8 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
9 Q. . Please tell the Court whether or
10 not anything unusual happened in December
11 or January of -- December of 1986 to
12 January of 1987?
13 A. - Well, we were informed by the
14 city December 17th, I believe, that we
15 would be moving December 29th; But the
16 Monday before Christmas, which I think was
17 the 22nd of December, they started moving
18 us. And they moved us piece by piece. And
19 the city official that moves us, or
20 whatever you call them, the workers, they
21 just dumped everything in our office.
22 There was nothing done systematically? I
23 personally emptied my Lektriever, which is
24 400 drawers. And we carried them over in
25 my van to the office. I personally
26 unhooked each and every computer terminal
27 and carried them over. There was nothing
252
...
1 to hook them up to because we didn't have a
2 drop line.
3 Q. Excuse me. Tell the Court what a
4 drop line is.
5 A. A drop line is when the telephone
6 company comes in and they drop a line into
7 the office so we canvass be hooked up with
8- Baton Rouge, the main computer terminal
9 center, so that we canvass have access to
10 our records.
11 Q. Would you tell the Court what the
12 position of the office was with respect to
13 the move?
14 A. It was in chaos. It took us
15 almost three weeks to get it in some kind
16 of working order so that we could work out
17 of the office.
.18 Q. Prior to the move, where was the
19 Registrar's Office housed?
20 A. 823 Perdido.
21 Q. Did the Registrar's Office have
22 any other office?
23 A. Yeah, we had six locations.
24 Q. Was there any in City Hall?
25 A. One substation at Room 1E01.
26 Q. Would you tell the Court at which
27 offices did the Registrar's Office have
253
1 computer terminals?
2 A. We have one in our Algiers office
3 which is at -- I don't know the address.
4 It's on Wagner Street in the courthouse,
5 Room 105. And we had one terminal hooked
6 up in 1E01, and six terminals at the main
7 office, 823 Perdido.
8 MR. MORIAL: Objection to
9 the relevance of this testimony on the
10 basis, that nowhere •in the law does it
11 suggest that the reasons being put forth
12 exonerate anyone from responsibility from
13 complying --
14 MR. HABANS: She just
15 testified as to how many computers.
16 MR. MORIAL: Objection only
17 to relevance.
18 THE COURT: Overruled at
19 this time.
20 MR. HABANS: Thank you.
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
22 Q. Ms. Nagel, would you tell the
23 Court what the total number of computer
24 terminals available to the Registrar's
25 Office was at the time of your move in
26 December, 1986?
27 A. Eight.
254
1 Q. And after the move, that is, the
2 day immediately following the move?
3 A. Two.
4 Q. And where were those two?
5 A. One in the substation at 1E01 in
6 City Hall, and one in Algiers.
7 Q. When was it you were physically
8 moved out of 823 Perdido?
9
10 think they brought the rest of our stuff
11 January -- that Monday, the first Monday in
12 January, the 2nd or 3rd. I don't know
13 which date it was.
A. I think it was the 30th. And I
14 Q. Please tell the Court when all of
15 your computer terminals were back hooked up
16 again in the new office in City Hall?
11 A. It was March 16th when we were
18 first running properly with all full eight
19 terminals.
20 Q. Would you tell the Court also
21 whether or not there were any elections
22 conducted during the month of January,
23 1987?
24 A. January 17th, 1987.
25 Q. And what election was that, if
26 you know?
27 A. It was, I believe, a proposition
255
I election.
2 Q. Describe for the Court what sort
3 of activities the Registrar's Office
4 engaged in to accommodate that election?
5 A. Well, we worked half of our
6 employees in Room 1E01 and the other was
7 the main office.
8 Q. What's the number of the other
9 office?
10 A. Room 1W12.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 A. And we had everybody going to
13 1E01 t•first. But we made all the people
14 who were registering and changing their
15 addresses come to 1W12 and we strictly had
16 the absentee voting in 1E01. It was a
17 little too small to have all of our books
18 to handle all the people- that came in for
19 absentee voting.
20 Q.
It waa chaotic.
Would you expiain for the benefit
21 of the Court why the Registrar's Office .
22 needed eight computer terminals?
23 A. We have a large amount of changes
24 of address that come in, we have a death
25 list that comes in monthly and it takes a
26 few days to do. We have a felony list that
27 comes in monthly, and that's a lot of
256
1 research we have to do. We are constantly
2 getting cancellations from other parishes
3 and other states, people that are
4 registered move out of the parish. We have
5 just a large amount of registered voters.
6 We have approximately 800 people registered
7 each month and that's just -- that's not
8 before the election. Sometimes we have up
9 to 15,00 .0 people to register within a week
10 before an election.
11 Q. Please describe -- let me ask you
12 this: Does your office have any function
13 t all with respect to Civil Service?
14 A. That's another thing.
15 MR. MORIAL: Objection,
16 leading. I'm just going to enter a
17 continuing objection.
18 THE COURT: It seems to be
19 harmless leading of the witness. He's just
20 trying to save time really.
21 MR. MORIAL: Let the record
22 reflect the objection.
23 THE WITNESS: Civil Service,
24 whenever they open a test in the city, all
25 the people that apply have to be registered
26 voters and we have to certify them. And it
27 just so happened that in January, right
257
•
1 around the election time, they opened the
2 police and firemen positions. And we had
3 thousands of people coming in in the two or
4 three weeks it was open that needed to be
5 certified and that took a lot of time. You
6 have to research them and most of them are
7 not registered, so we have to register
8- them. And you have to do research to see
9 if they're registered within the state
10 system and we send cancellations. And it
11 takes a lot of your time to stop and fill
12 applications out and help them fill them
13 out and -certificate them.
14 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
15 Q. What, if anything, do you use to
16 research these individuals to see if
17 they're registered voters?
.18 A. The computer. And we only had
19 _one system. We had three terminals hooked
20 up in 1E01. That's all the system allowed.
21 And one of them strictly for doing change
22 of address and new registrations and trying
23 to keep that up so we wouldn't get too far
24 behind on that. We had one strictly for
25 research. And we ended up using two of
26 them for research.
27 our daily work.
And it put us behind in
257
1 Q. Would you please tell the Court
2 if the fact of an election does anything to
3 your office that causes any effort?
4 MR. MORIAL: Objection.
5 Leading.
6 THE COURT: I don't think
7 that's leading. Overrule the objection.
8 Answer the question.
9 THE WITNESS: Whenever we
10 have an election, three weeks prior to the
11 election we start absentee voting, or
12 - depending on the election, two weeks prior.
13 And that puts all our records on hold. and
14 everything is stopped until the election,
15 until the absentee voting is completed,
16 then we canvass start processing. Usually
17 it just takes all of us to Landle absentee
18 voting. We have such a lare amount of
19 people that do vote absentee.
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
21 Q. What, if anything; happens after
22 an election?
23 A. We start right away entering
24 registration, pulling the mailing changing
25 address and we post our books. It takes 30
26 days. We only use two, three terminal to
27 do it.
258
1 Q. What do you mean by post your
2 books?
3 A. Each election is entered into the
4 computer. Every individual voter that's
5 registered we put yes or no he did not.
6 It's entered. Each page of every book that
7 has come back into the office after the
8 election is posted.
9 THE COURT: That's the
10 books?
11 THE WITNESS: At the poles.
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
13 Q. How does one enter an election as
14 you described?
15 A. You call the page up on the
16 computer and you have a one and a two key,
17 one for yes, two for no, and you hit yes,
18 no all the way down the page. And you roll
19 the page over. And once you've finished
20 all the voters throughout the city or all
21 the precincts that were in the election,
22 then you call Baton Rouge and tell them. I
23 sent a memo •through the computer to Baton
24 Rouge to let them know I finished posting,
25 and they automatically post the books.
26 Q. Would you tell the Court if
27 anyone or several people in the office had
1 designated responsibility for handling the
2 canvass in 1987?
3 A. I did.
4 Q. What, if anything -- withdrawn.
5 When did you first do anything to begin the
6 canvass?
7 A. January 27th I called through the
8 computer for the first canvass notices.
9 Q. When you say you called through
10 the computer, what is that?
11 A. I sent a memo to Baton Rouge
12 asking them to print the canvass cards,
13 first notice, for Wards 8 and 9.
14 Q. Ma'am, I'm going to show you the
15 original piece of original computer paper
16 and a Xeroxed copy that you made of it for
17 me. I'm going to mark it Defense Exhibit 9
18 for identification. Please compare the
19 XerOxed copy and the computer sheet and
20 tell us whether or not -- tell us what
21 those are, would you please?
22 A. This is the memo that I sent to
23 Development Office in Baton Rouge to print
24 the canvass first notice.
25 Q. What's the date that memo was
26 sent?
27 A. It was sent January 27th, 1987.
1 Q. In connection with this I offer,
2 introduce and file. into evidence
3 Defendant's 9:
4 THE COURT: May I see it?
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
6' Q. Would you tell the Court why that
7 was done on January 27th?
8 A. We were told by Jerry Fawler's
9 office --
10 MR. MORIAL: Objection.
11 Hearsay.
12 THE COURT: Objection
13 sustained.
14 EXAMINATION •BY MR. HABANS:-
15 Q. Would you tell the Court what you
16 did upon -- what happened after you sent
17 that Exhibit 9 to Jerry Fawler'a office?
18 MR. MORIAL: Objection. She
19 didn't testify that anything was sent to
20 Jerry Fawler's office.
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
22 Q. Excuse me. Where did you send
23 Exhibit 9?
24 A. I sent it to the Development
25 Office.
26 Q. Beg your pardon. What is the
27 Development Office?
261
1 A. That's the office in Baton Rouge.
2 It's Located right by Jerry Fawler's office
3 and it's all the same office •and they just
4 do all the work. They do all the main
5 work.
6 Q. What do they do with respect to
7 canvassing as far as this office in New
8. Orleans is concerned.
9 A. They print all the cards and they
10 send them to us.
11 Q. What cards are you referring to?
12 A. The canvass cards.
13 Q. Ms. Nagel, I'm going to show . you
14 what's been marked Defendant's 10 for
15 identification. Would you look at that and
16 tell me if you recognize what that is?
17 A. This is the first canvass notice
.18 that we mail-out to all registered voters
19 in the precincts that we're canvassing.
20 Q. Is this an original or what?
21 A. This is a copy of one front and
22 back that went out to a voter that was
23 returned.
24 Q. Is this the same -- tell the
25 Court whether or not this is the same
26 wording that's on all the canvass cards,
27 the first card?
262
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. Whose wording is that?
3 A. That's -- it comes out of the law
4 book, the election code.
5 Q. Where do you get the card from,
6 the original of that card? Where does it
7 come from?
8 A. It comes from the Elections and
9 Registration Office, what I call the
10 Development Office.
11 Q. Would you tell the Court when you
12 received, if you remember, when you
13 received the first canvass cards after
14 sending your request on January 27th?
15 A. Okay. I received it that
16 followiag Monday which would have been
17 February 2nd.
18 Q. Would you tell the Court what, if
19 anything, the Office of the Registrar does
20 after the print of the first canvass cards
21 are received?
22 A. There were 90,647 canvass cards
23 to be exact that came back for Wards 8 and
24 9. Each one of them has to be gone through
25 to make sure that the address is printed in
26 the proper place, that the permit number is
27 in the upper righthand corner. And the
1 ones that aren't are pulled and we have to
2 make sure that there's no blank cards and
3 they're in zipcode order and they're
4 bundled in about two-and-a-half inch
5 bundles and they're put in zipcode trays
6 and marked and they're brought over to. the
7 Post Office.
8 Q. What number did I give that
9 exhibit, ma'am?
10 A. 10.
11 Q. In connection --
12 THE COURT: Are you offering
13 . 10 in evidence?
14 MR. HABANS: In connection
15 with that I'd like to offer Exhibit 10 into
16 evidence, Your Honor.
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
18 Q. Ms. Nagel, let me show you what's
19 been marked for identification Defendant
20 11. Please take a look at that and tell me
21 if you recognize that?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Tell the Court what it is.
24 A. Whenever we take mail -that's
25 presorted to the Post Office we have to
26 fill one of these forms out, Statement of
27 Mailing with the permits and prints. It
264
:.• Yr I
has our permit number, the date that it's
2 brought over there and the total in
3 mailing.
4 Q. Can you tell the Court whether
5 Exhibit 11 has anything to do with the
6 canvass .cards?
7 A. It was the canvass cards when we
8 brought them over to mail them February
9 10th.
10. Q. And what day, in fact, were they
11 mailed?
12 A. They were mailed that day,
13 February 10th, the day they're brought over
14 there.
15 Q. With respect to the mailing of
16 presorted first class postcards, in your
17 experience, do those postcards receive a
18 postmark?
19 A. No. Whenever •you presort mail it
20 doesn't receive a postmark. What happens
21 is when the mail comes back it's stamped by
22 the Post Office and dated the day they
23 return it to you to the office.
24 THE COURT: Would I be
25 correct in assuming that from February the
26 10th when you received those cards -
27 February the 2nd when you received those
1 cards to February the 10th when you mailed
2 those cards that y'all were going through
3 this 90,000 cards checking the zip and
4 everything else?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
8 Q. Would you tell the Court how many
9 . people in the Registrar's Office
10 participated in checking the first canvass
11 cards before mailing?
12 A. There were three of us.
13 Q. After the mailing
14
15 tell the Court when the first return -
16 withdrawn. Let me ask you this: Would you
17
18 canvass cards with respect to the delivery
19 or return of those items?
20 A. Okay. You mean what happens?
21 Q. Physically what does the card .
22 require the Post Office to do?
23 A. The card requires that the Post
24 Office deliver only as addressed. If not,
25 to return them. And most of the time they
26 return them, they put a stamp on some of
27 them that they have a forwarding address or
February .
10th, 1987, Ms. Nagel, would you please
explain the instructions on the first
266
1 they'll be marked forwarding order expired
2 or an address which is out of the state or
3 out of the parish. It takes approximately
4 six to eight weeks before we finish getting
5 cards back from the Post Office.
6 Q. You mean after February 10th it
7 took this year six to eight weeks for the
8. last cards to be returned?
9 A. Definitely. It takes several
10 weeks, at least six to eight weeks, before
11 we get all the cards back and it's just a
12 little trickle of cards like 20 or 30 a
13 day.
14 Q. What does your office do with the
15 cards that are returned and that is not
16 delivered as addressed?
17 A. We go through each and every
.18 card. Every one that is not delivered as
19 addressed, the forwarding order. expired or
20 it an out of state or out of parish .new
21 address, those cards are taken, they're put
22 in alphebetical order and each card is
23 entered, each voter has a sequence number,
24 computer number, that's what we call them
25 now. And each computer number is entered
26 into the screen to the computer. It's
27 called up on the screen. The card is
267
1 physically compared to the computer screen.
2 If the data is identical then at the bottom
3 there's a date that says canvass and we
4 enter a new date. It doesn't matter what
5 the new date is as long as it's the same
6 one. We enter a new date for the second
7 notice to be printed when we're finished
8 everything.
9 Q. Would you give the Court some
10 idea how many people and how long it takes
11 to do that computer entry function when
12
13 eight terminals or whatever to work with?
14 A. We usually work four people, four
15 terminals, and it takes approximately 10
16 days.
17 Q. After February 10th when was the
18 first cards starting to come in?
your computers are all up and when you have
19 A. Usually in about three to four
20 days.
21 Q. How would you describe the flow
22 of cards initially? That is, after the
23 three or four days after mailing?
24 A. The first two or three days it's
25 like 30 or 40 cards, and then we'll get a
26 whole mail sack filled. We'll get two or
27 three of those. And they usually come
1 every other day. And after that it starts
2 trickling down 200, 300 cards a day until
3 it gets down to 10 and 20. That's usually
4 about six to eight weeks later.
5 Q. Ms. Nagel, beginning three days
6 after February 10th when you receive just a
7 few cards and then these sacks of cards
8 come in, describe for the Court what the
9 condition was of available computer
10 terminals for operators to input this new
11 information?
12 A. There weren't any available. We
13 had only three . terminals working. At the
14 time we had one post, the January 17th
15 election. We had one doing new
16 registrations arid update changes of
17 address, and we had one for research for
18 handling the people that were coming in.
19 We had none available to do the canvass
20 until March.
21 Q. Do you know what the reason for
22 the delay in hooking up your computers
23 were?
24 A. The city didn't notifiy us 60
25 days prior and South Central Bell and AT&T
26 wants 60 days notice to put a drop line in
27 for computer terminal.
1 Q. Do you remember when South
2 Central Bell finally came to your office?
3 A. They came on March 12th, 1987.
4 Q. How long were they in your office
5 before they finished doing their work?
6 A. They were in for two days and for
7 some reason they had trouble getting our
8 line up. We didn't have a terminal in the
9 main office until March 16th.
10 Q. Ms. Nagel, what does the
11 Registrar's Office employees, what do they
12 do with respect to those first canvass
13 cards returned by the Post Office that
14 indicate a new address within the parish?
15 A. We put them in alphebetical
16 order. We go to the Lektriever files. We
17 pull the original LR-1 card and then we
18 process it. And in order to do that we
19 have to sit at the terminal and change the
20 address. We have to look,, you know, the
21 new ward and precincts. We have to check
22 the zipcode because the Post Office does
23 give wrong zipcodes. We've discovered
24 that. All the data is entered. The next
25 day the data is called up through the
26 computer and we have somebody else to check
27 to make sure all of it is entered
270
correctly. If not it is re-corrected.
2 After a week we get labels. We put the
3 labels on which has each individuals name,
4 ward, precinct and computer number, and
5 then the cards are re-filed into the
6 Lektriever.
7 Q. What affect does that have with
8 respect to these people that have address
9 changes?
10 A. We had so many of them coming in,
11 it was time consuming. And every voter got
12 a new I.D. card in the mail.
13 Q. For those voters who moved but
14 didn't notifiy the Registrar's Office, but
15 the Post Office notifies the Registrar's
16 Office of the new address, do they remain
17 registered voters?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. What happens to the precincts or
20 ward where they're registered now, I mean?
21 A. Well, they're taken out of that
22 one and put into a new one -- the one that
23 they were registered in before?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. They're taken out of that one and
26 put into their new ward and precinct and
27 they all receive a card. Some of them come
271
:-r •
1 back that they haven't moved or for some
2 reason or another, maybe it's their parents
3 house, and we'll move them back if they
4 request it.
5 Q. Let me ask you this: Is it
6 necessary for a voter who moves and who
7 leaves a forwarding address with the Post
8. Office that has not expired that you all
9 learn of during the canvass, is it
10 necessary for that voter to do anything to
11 remain legally registered to vote?
12 A. No, sir.
13 MR. MORIAL: Objection.
14 Leading.
15 THE COURT: Don't lead the
16 witness.
17 MR. MORIAL: Just let the
18 record reflect a continuing objection to
19 the continuing nature of the leading
20 questions.
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
22 Q. What, if anything, does a voter
23 need to do under those circumstances?
24 A. If he's caught in the canvass and
25 he still has his order, his forwarding
26 order at the Post Office, he doesn't need
27 to do anything. We'll handle it when the
272
1 card comes back from the Post Office.
2 Q. Immediately next election, tell
3 the Court whether or not that voter is a
4 registered voter?
5 A. He'll be a registered voter at a
6 new ward and precinct.
7 Q. After your computer terminals
8 came up, that is, the six terminals that
9 were installed in your main office in City
10 Hall where the city made you move --
11 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
12 Q. -- how long after the computer
13 terminals came up did y'all begin working..
' 14 on the canvass cards?
15 A. Immediately. We started right
16 away. I had four people working on them.
17 Q. How long did it take before all
18 of the information that was returned from
19 . the Post Office was inputted into these
20 computer terminals after March 16th when
21 they became available?
22 A. Approximately two weeks, two to
23 three weeks.
24 Q. What next happened after that,
25 ma'am?
26 A. On April 15th is when I called
27 for the second canvass notice to be printed
273
1 which is the letter of irregularity.
2 Q. And how long after that were
• 3 those received?
4 A. Well, there was no elections
5 going on in the state. We got the cards
6 , right away. I guess about around the 21st
7 or the 22nd of April.
8 Q. And what, if anything, was
9 required after you receive those cards?
10 A. Those cards, we have to go
11 through those •cards a little bit better.
12 What happens with -- a lot of times people
13 - are changing their address. • _So on the
14 second notice what we have to do is make
15 sure that we didn't catch anybody that had
16 changed their address from the time I
17 called for the cards until the time I
18 received them. So we go through all the
19 cards and make sure that they have to go
20 into the second canvass. The letter of
21 irregularity is sent and then we mail them.
22 And they were mailed on May 4th, 1987.
23 MR. MORIAL: Excuse me. Can
24 I see that exhibit again?
25 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
26 Q. Ms. Nagel, I'm going to show you
27 Defense Exhibit 12 and ask you to tell the
274
1 Court if you recognize that piece of paper?
3
2 A. Yes, I do. That's the one where
3 we brought the mail over on May the 4th,
4 the second letter of irregularity to be
5 mailed.
6 Q. What was the' date that the second
7 notice, the card of irregularity, what date
8 was it mailed?
9 A. May 4th, 1987.
10 Q. How many pieces of mail -- how
11 many cards were there?
12 A. There were 11,759:
13 . Q. That's down from the 90,000 plus?'
14 A. It was 90,647.
15 Q. Would you .tell the Court what, if
16 anything, was done -- withdrawn. In
17 connection with this' testimony, I'd offer
18 Defense Exhibit 12 into evidence, Your
19 Honor.
20 THE COURT: Let me see it.
21 MR. HAWANS: May 12 be
22 admitted?
23 THE COURT: Yeah.
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
25 Q. I'm going to show you Defendant's
26 13. Please tell the Court if you recognize
27 that?
275
•
1 A. This is a copy of a second
2 canvass notice that was returned, front and
3 back.
4 Q. What other title is that given
5 sometimes in the testimony?
6 A. It's a letter of irregularity
7 Q. And would you tell the Court if
8 this is an exact Xeroxed copy of one that
9 was used in this last canvass?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 THE COURT: Is that what
12 appears in the paper?
13 • THEA WITNESS: Just the name
14 and address appear in the paper.
15 THE COURT: • In Connection
16 with that one there?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
18 Every one of those cards that are mailed,
19 their name appears in the paper.
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
21 Q. Please tell the Court when the
22 names are compiled and advertised in the
23 Times-Picayune?
24 A. Names are put in the paper
25 approximately within five days after the
26 mailing of the cards.
27 Q. In fact, was there a publication
276
1 of the names of all voters who received the
2 second or the card of irregularity?
3 A. Yes, there was. It was printed
•
4 in the paper May 7th, 1987.
5 Q. And Ms. Nagel, do you have
6 knowledge of any problem that arose as a.
7 result of that advertisement?
8 -
9
10
11
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Summarize for the Court what the
problem was?
A. When we put it in the paper it
12 was a Thursday and I knew it had to be
13 three days for the notice in the paper and
14 I just went seven, eight, nine, ten and
15 just said it would be the tenth would be
16 the returnable date which happened to fall
17 on a Sunday. And I didn't pay any
18 attention to the date.
19 Q. Ms. Nagel, did anypne.direct you
20 to publish it that way?
21 A. No. Well, the Dean asked me what
22 day were we putting it in the paper and I
23 said it would be on the Thursday the 7th
24 which was within five days and three days
25 from that -- I just went seven, eight,
26 nine, ten, not paying attention to the day,
27 just the amount of time.
1 Q. And that advertisement was later
2 declared pull by the Court, right?
-A. Right.
4 Q. Have you been able since that
5 time or have you done anything to process
6
7 that card and to advertise again?
8 A. The only thing we did is we
9 updated the canvass date on all of the
10 canvass cards, the second cards that came
11 back, so that if we can redo the canvass
12 we'll be ready.
13 Q. •Would you tell the Court: in your
14 experience having -handled the canvass for
15 the Office of the Registrar in Orleans,
16 tell us how many cards ara left that need
17 to be canvassed?
18 A. There's approxiAately 8,000 cards
19 left. We got a real larçe. amount of
20 changes of address and it's probably less
21 than that now because we're still getting
22 people that come in every day to change
23 their address. And whenever we call them
24 up on the screen and we see the canvass
25 date for the new canvass that we haven't
26 run yet, we take the date off so they won't
27 receive a card.
the card of irregularity or to re-process
278
1 Q. Has your office done anything to
2 your knowledge to request voters to change
3 their addresses?
4 A. Yeah. We print it for, I think,
5 five days in the paper a change of address
6 form.
7 THE COURT: When was this
8 done?
9 MR. HABANS: I'm about to do
10 that right now.
11 THE WITNESS: I was on
12 vacation when it was done.
13
14 Q. I'm going to show you Exhibit 8.
15
16
17
18
19 printing, the actual size too, that went in
20 the paper of the Time-Picayune.
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
22 Q. What does that purport to do,
23 ma'am?
24 A. It says "Attention Registered
- 25 Voters in Orleans Parish." If you have
26
EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
Do you recognize Exhibit 8? I'd like to
offer Exhibit 13.
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: This is the
moved and not changed your address to fill
27 out the form below and mail it to us. And
"\I"
1 it's got all the information they •need to
2 change their address.
3 MR. HABANS: *I offer
4 Defendant's 8 into evidence.
5 THE COURT: Did you get any
6 response to this?
7 THE WITNESS: Yeah, a.couple
8 of hundred.
9 THE COURT: Are they pulled
10 out of the 8,000?
11 THE WITNESS: A lot of them
12 were. I don't know how many were pulled
13- out. •But a lot of then were.
14 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
15 Q. Since your office has been under
16
17 Jedge of this Court, have you been able to
18 t6 go forward with any of the canvass
19 aativities?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Would you tell Judge Rivet if the
22 Court •were to allow your office to commence
23 to finish the canvassing effort for 1987
24 how much time would it take to finish the
25 annual canvass?
26 A. 29 days.
27 Q. How have you computed that?
a Temporary Restraining Order issued by a
1 A. What I would do I would call for
2 the second notice to be reprinted, the
3 letter of irregularity to be reprinted. It
4 would take the Development Office
5 approximately two to three days to get the
6 cards back to me. It would take me
7 approximately four days to go through them
8 and get them in zipcode order and we can
9 mail them as soon as we finish. And it
10 would take 10 days from the date we mail.
11
12 And' we allow an additional 11 days which is
Under the law we have to allow 10 days.
13 21 days total. And we can start taking
14 them off the computer, canceling them.
15 Q. I think that might have computed
16 out to 28 or 29; is that righ:?
17 A. Somewhere around thttre.
18 Q. Is your office physLcally -- tell
19 the Court whether or not your office is
20 physically able to do that rIght now if
21 allowed to do so?
22 A. Yes, we were.
23 Q. Does your computer system work
24 now?
25 A. Yes, it does.
26 Q. What precincts were canvassed in
27 1986, Mrs. Nagel?
1 A. Wards 1 through 7.
2 Q. And what precincts, which
3 precincts were canvassed in 1985?
4 A. That would have been Wards 15
5 through 17.
6 Q. And in 1984?
7 A. That would have been Wards 10
8. through 13 --10 through 14, excuse me.
9 Q. And 1983?
10 A. Wards 8 and 9.
11 Q. Has the Office of the Registrar
12 of Voters deviated from the chronological
13 order that was established years ago?
14 A. No.
15 Q. When do the poles close -- excuse
16 me. When do the voter registration rolls
17 close for the October 24th primary election
18 of this year?
19 A. September 24th.
20 Q. And if you were allowed to go
21 forward to. complete the canvass it would be
22 completed how long before the rolls close?
23 A. I'd have to see a calendar to
24 give that date. I don't know.
25 Q. If today's July 21st.
26 THE COURT: Here you are.
27 THE WITNESS: Thank you. It
1 would be about four weeks before the books
2 are closed, five weeks, we could be
3 finished. So we could be finished our
4 canvass August 24th at the latest.
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
6 Q. Are you familiar with a subpoena
7 that was served on the Registrar of Voters
8 to bring LR-1's, that is, the original
9 registration documents for the named
10 plaintiffs in this lawsuit?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was that subpoena served on your
13 office by me?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Would you take a look at those
16 and till us if those are original LR-1
17 recorcis of the Registrar's Office?
18 A. Yes, they are.
19 Q. Referring to suit number
20 87-11071, the suit that brings us into
21 court today, ma'a, I'm going to ask you if
22 there is a registered voter by the name of
23 William Saulberry?
24 A. Yes, there is.
25 MR. HABANS: Your Honor, am
26 I on Exhibit 14, •sir?
27 THE COURT: Yeah.
1 MR. HABANS: Thank you.
2 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
3 Q. Do you have the original voter
4 registration documents from Mr. Saulberry?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Would you tell the Court whether
7 or not Mr. Saulberry is subject to having
8 his vote purged as a result of any canvass
9 that will be conducted by your office this
10 year?
• 11 MR. MORIAL: Objection.
12 Leading question.
• 13 • THE COURT: • I don't see
14 where it's leading.
15 MR. HABANS: I'm not
16 suggesting the answer, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Objection
18 overruled.
19 THE WITNESS: No, he's not
20 going to be canceled. He's not the
21 second part of the canvass.
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
23 Q. In connection with this testimony
24 I'd like to offer a Xeroxed copy of Mr.
25 Saulberry's original records so we can
• 26 return the original to the Lektriever. The
27 next named individual is a gentleman by the
1 name of Wayne Riley. Do you have the
2 original voter registration cards for him?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Would you please tell the Court
5 whether Mr. Wayne Riley will have his
6 registration canceled as a result of
7 anything to do with the activities
8 conducted by the Registrar's Office
9 incident to any canvass if allowed to be
10 completed?
11 A. No, he won't, because he received
12 his letter of irregularity and he responded
13 to it with his current address.
14 Q. Do you have the date when he
15 responded with his current address?
16 A. May 14th, 1987.
17 Q That would be before this lawsuit
18 was filed on July 2nd; is that correct?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. In connection with that testimony
21 I'd like to offer a Xeroxed copy of Mr..
22 Riley's registration as Exhibit 15.
23 There's a Henry A. Dillon, III who's
24 present in court among the named plaintiffs
25 in this suit. Do you have a voter
26 registration card for Mr. Dillon?
27 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Would you tell the Court whether
2 or not Mr. Dillon will be purged as a
3 result of any activity conducted by the
4 Registrar of Voters Office if the annual
5 canvass is allowed to continue?
6 A. No, well -- no. He. apparently.
7 received his first card. He did not return
8 to our office.
9 Q. In connection with Mr. Dillon's
10 registration, offer Exhibit 16. Mr. Carl
11
12
13
14
Galmon, •a witness yesterday who testified.
Do you have his voter registration cards?
Yes,
Q. Would you tell the Court whether
15 or not Mr. Carl Galmon will have his
16 registration purged or removed from the
17 rolls a s •a result of anything the Registrar
18 of Voters Office will do if allowed to
19 complete •the canvass?
20 A. No, sir, he will not. He
21 received -- apparently he received his
22 first canvass notice because it was never
23 returned to our office.
24 Q. I offer Exhibit 17, Your. Honor,
25 for Mr. Galmon. Now, the next gentleman is
26 listed only as Reverend Raymond Brown. Do
27 you know if there is a voter registration
286
1 card for Reverend Raymond Brown?
2 A. We don't have one marked received
3 Raymond Brown. But we do have five Raymond
4 Browns registered in the 8th and 9th ward
5 in Orleans Parish. I have all five cards
6 with me.
7 Q. Would you check all the five to
8. see if any of them is subject to being
9 canceled by virtue of the canvass that has
10 been started and if it is finished by the
11 Registrar's Office?
12 A. Okay. I got four of them that
13 apparently received their cards. They
14 won't be in the canvass. And one whose
15 card was sent back by the Post Office with
16 a new address of 637 Flood Street.
17 Q. What did you do in responsst to
18 learning the new address on that par.icular
19 Raymond Brown?
20 A. On February 26th, 1987 his
21 address was changed and he was sent a new
22 I.D. card.
23 Q. So as a result of the voter purge
24 or canvass conducted by the Registrar's
25 Office, if allowed to go to completion,
26 will any of the Raymond Browns that you
27 have mentioned be removed from the rolls?
287
1 A. No, sir.
2 Q. In connection with that
3 testimony, Your Honor, I would like to
4 offer, introduce and file into evidence
5 Defense Exhibit 18 in globo consisting of
6 all the Raymond Brown cards.
7 Q. Deidra Harris. Do you have her
8 card?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Would you tell the Court whether
11 or not anything will be done to cancel Ms.
12 Deidra Harris' registration as a result of
13 any canvass activities by the Registrar's
14 Office?
15 A. Apparently not. She apparently
16 received the letter, first card. She's not
17 in the canvass.
18 Q. Offer Exhibit 19 for Ms. Harris.
19 Q. Russell Henderson. Please tell
20 the Court whether Russell Henderson's card
21 is there?
22 A. Yes. I have it.
23 Q. Will Mr. Henderson lose his right
24 to vote as a result of anything that the
25 Registrar's Office does in this canvass?
26 A. Mr. Henderson's in Ward 14. He
27 hasn't been canvassed at all.
288
1 Q. In connection with Mr.
2 Henderson's cards, I'd offer Exhibit 20
3 into evidence. Llewelyn Soniat.
4 A. I have her card.
5 Q. Tell the Court whether Llewelyn
6 Soniat will be removed from the rolls of
7 voters as a result of anything to do with
8 the purge in 1987?
9 A. No, she will not. She's in Ward
10 17. She wasn't in the canvass.
11 MR. MORIAL: He.
12 THE WITNESS: Excuse me.
13 He.
14
15 21.
16 EXAMINATION LY MR. HABANS:
17 Q. Thu only other named defendants
- 18 are John Doe, James Doe and Jane Doe. Do
19 you understand those to be fictitious
20 people?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. And there are two organizations
23 that are named in the petition. The
24 Louisiana Voter Registration Education
25 Crusade, Inc. and Louisiana League of Good
26 Government.
MR. HABANS: I offer Exhibit
o either of those have a
27 right to cast votes in elections in this
1 state according to the Registrar of Voters
2 Office?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Those are two corporations. Do
5 corporations vote?
6 A. No.
7 Q. In your duties in the Registrar's
8 Office, ma'am, have you ever been
9 instructed to take into consideration sex
10 religion, race or any other factors in
11 order to determine whether a voter is
12 qualified.
13 MR. MORIAL: Object_ion.
14 Leading.
15 THE COURT: Objection
16 sustained.
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
18 Q. Please tell the Court what
19 criteria you take into consideration in
20 determining who in Wards 8 and 9 were ta, be
21 canvassed this year?
22 A. Everybody. It doesn't matter.
23 It's just everybody in Wards 8 and 9.
24 Q. You say it doesn't matter?
25 A. It doesn't matter what there
26 race, sex or party affiliation is.
27 MR. HABANS: That's all the
1 questions I have, Ms. Nagel. Please answer
2 their questions.
3 THE COURT: Cross?
4 MR. MORIAL: May I see the
5 exhibits that have been entered?
6 THE COURT: I'm going to
7 give you all of them from yesterday, too.
8 Keep them together.
9 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
10 Q. Ms. Nagel, you've testified that
11 it will take 29 days to complete this
12 particular canvass, right.
13 A. The second part of it, yes.
14 Q. You're aware of the earlier ad
15 which was thrown out, correct? .
16 A. Yes, I am.
17 Q. You're aware that that judgment
18 was entered on the 29th day of May, 1987
19 Morial or less?
20 A. I guess so.
21 Q. You wouldn't disagree if I told
22 you that's the impact date of that previous
23 judgment?
24 A. No, I wouldn't disagree.
25 Q. You're aware of the fact that the
26 Temporary Restraining Order in this
27 particular case was not issued until
1 June -- excuse me, July 2nd, 1987?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know how many days there
4 are between the 29th f May and the 2nd of
5 July, 1987?
6 A. Not without looking at a
7 calendar.
8 - Q. But it's more than 30 days?
9 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
10 Q. Your office did nothing during
11 that time period, did they, to complete
12 that canvass, although at that particular
13 point and time they were under no
14 restraining orders or injunctions to do
15 such that you are aware of?
16 A. I don't understand.
17 Q. What, if anything, did your
18 office do in June' - when there was no
19 injunctions or re-straining orders in effect
20 to complete this canvass?
21 MR. HABANS: Excuse me. I
22 object to the way counsel is posing it. It
23 was, in effect, a resolution that was
24 issued by --
25 MR. MORIAL: Objection to
26 counsel testifying.
27 MR. HABANS: I'm not
1 testifying.
2 THE COURT: Let me hear what
3 his objection is.
4 MR. HABANS: He's asking
5 this witness to comment on what was in
6 effect. She could certainly say whether.
7 the office did anything or didn't do
8 anything. Counsel is trying to argue his
9 case through this witness. As counsel well
10 knows, at the request of one of the
11 plaintiffs in this case -
12 MR. MORIAL: Object to the
13 testifying by counsel.
14 MR. HABANS: This isn't for
15 the record. This is for the Court's
16 education.
17 THE COURT: I've got to hear
18 his objection.
19 MR. HABANS: As Mr. Morial
20 well knows, one of his clients and he asked
21 the City Council to issue a resolution that
22 was testified to.
23 THE COURT: That's in the
24 record.
25 MR. HABANS: Of course it
26 is. And this witness is being asked
27 whether there was some legal impediment to
1 go forward with her office duties. As Your
2 Honor knows, Mr. Papale was under the
3 resolution. He sent it to the Attorney
4 General. The Attorney General said to go
5 forward.
6 THE COURT: That's all in
7 the record.
8. MR. HABANS: He's got her on
9 cross-examination. He can ask her -- it's
10 a perfectly legitimate question. What did
11 her office do from May 29th 'till the time
12 that the T.R.O. was issued? I have no
13 objection to your question as being while
14 there was no restraining order or other
15 problem.
16 MR. MORIAL: It's the same
17 question.
18 THE COURT: Rephrase your
19 question to ask her . what did the office do
20 during that time -
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
22 Q. What did your office do during
23 June?
24 A. Nothing as far as the canvass is
25 concerned.
26 Q. Now, there's another canvass, Ms.
27 Nagel. It's a canvass for voters who have
1 not voted in four years, correct?
2 A. Right.
3- Q. Are you aware of the fact that at
4 no time was your office under a restraining
5 order prior to July 2nd to conduct that
6 canvass?
7 A. Well, we started it but we
8 stopped it.
9 Q. When did you start it?
10 A. I don't remember the dates.
11 Q. How far did you get in that?
12 A. We just had the cards printed.
13 Q. And when did you request for
14 those cards to be printed?
15 A. It was either the end of June --
16 it had to be the eneing of June.
17 Q. So no effc,rts were made from
18 January 1 until the end of June to even
19 commence the four year canvass?
20 A. We never do it until we finish
21 the change of address canvass.
22 Q. But you're aware that the law was
23 changed by the legislature last year with
24 respect to those canvasses?
25 MR. HABANS: Objection. It
26 was changed only with respect to the annual
27 canvass.
1 THE COURT: That's right.
2 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
3 Q. You're aware of the Attorney
4 General's opinion in this particular case?
5 MR. HABANS: Excuse me.
6 This witness is an employee of the
7 Registrar. We don't have to - .10
8 THE COURT: Answer the
9 question.
10 MR. MORIAL: She's the
11 person responsible for these actions.
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
13 Q. So your testimony is during June
• 14 your office did nothing?
15 A. As far as the canvass is
16 concerned.
17 Q. Was there a reason?
18 A. The Dean -- Mr. Papale informed
19 me that we were stopped by the City
20 Council. That's all I know.
21 Q. Do you know the date of that City
22 Council resolution?
23 A. No, I don't, not offhand.
24 Q. How long have you been doing the
25 annual canvass?
26 A. About seven years.
27 Q. Were you aware that the law was
1 changed in 1986?
2 A. Yes, I was.
3 Q.
4 that?
5
6
When did you become aware of
A. I don't know. Sometime in '86.
Q. Being the person responsible for
7 these canvasses, do you keep up with
8 changes in the law on a periodic basis?
9 A. Whenever Mr. Papale gives them to
10 me.
11 Q. So you do nothing on your own?
12 A. No. I strictly go by what he
13 tells me to do,.
14 Q. What he tells you. At any time
15 did he tell you that the law was changed?
16 A. Yes, he did.
17 Q. Do you recall when he told you?
18 A. It was sometime in 1986 after the
19 law was changed.
20 Q. As a result of that, did you feel
21 it was necessary for you to do anything .
22 different with regard to the canvass given
23 the timing restriction?
24 A. Just that we had to call for the
25 first notices in the month of January.
26 Q. Isn't it a fact, ma'am, that that
27 argument has been put forth now that this
1 litigation has been commenced and that at
2 no time did you all contemplate that before
3 January?
4 A. No.
5 Q. So at all times you just thought
6 you had to order the cards in January?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. Did you read the law?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. The law says that the canvass
11 shall be conducted in January?
12 A. That's right.
13 . 0 Q. It makes no mention of the cards. •
14 It makes no mention of starting date, does
15 it?
16 A. No. But that is what the canvass
17 is, the cards, mailing of the cards.
18 Q. The canvass is a mailing of the
19 cards?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. You've testified today that the
22 mailing of the cards didn't take place
23 until February 10th?
24 A. Right. But we called for them in
25 January.
26 Q. But you've testified that the
27 canvass is the mailing of the cards?
.7)
1 A. (No response by witness).
2 Q. We all know it took place for
3 February 10th,
4
5
A. Not until February 10th of 1987.
Q. What took place, the mailing?
6 MR. HABANS: Counsel is
7 testifying. He's not asking questions.
8. THE COURT: He's doing the
9 same thing he objected to you doing.
10 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor,
11 this is cross-examination.
12 THE COURT: That don't give
13 you a right to testify. You ask the
14 questions.
15 MR. MORIAL: I think it
16 gives me a right to ask leading questions.
17 THE COURT: Ask the
.18 questions. There's no objection to you
19 leading. He's objecting to you. testifying.
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
21 Q. You've testified that February
22 10th was the date the first cards were
23 mailed?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. Ms. Nagel, you earlier testified
26 that the city informed you all of the move
27 on December 17th, 1987, correct?
1 A. Right.
2 Q. Are you aware that the city
3 notified Mr. Papale in June of '86 that you
4 all had to move?
5 A. Yes, I was, but they never told
6 us when.
7 Q. Excuse me?
8 A. They never informed us when we
9 would be moving.
10 Q. You knew you had to move?
11 A. We knew we eventually would have
12 to move.
13 Q. There came a time around November
14 when you all requested a postponement of
15 the move, correct.
16 A. As far as I know, yes.
17 Q. And the reason for the
18
19
20
21 A. I'm not aware of that.
22 Q. You didn't hear the testimony of
23 Ms. Dixon on yesterday?
24 A. Yes, I did, but I can't remember
25 everything she said.
26 Q. So would it be fair to say that
27 you knew far in advance of December that
postponement was requested because the city
asked you all to move in, I guess, sometime
in December?
1 you would have to move. You just didn't
2 know what time?
3 A. Yes, we knew we were moving. We
4 didn't know when.
5 Q. And it's a fact at the beginning
6 of December, 30 days before you actually.
7 moved, you knew that you would have to move
8 before the end of the year?
9 A. No. We found out December 17th.
10 Q. So your testimony today is that
11 you didn't know before December 17th that
12 you had to move?
13 A. Before the end of the year,
14 right. That's all I knew was December 17th
15 I was told we were moving before the end of
16 the year.
17 Q. You had heard nothing else about
18 the move?
19 A. Sure, I knew. But they didn't
20 say when.
21 Q. You weren't aware of the fact
22 that they had earlier requested that you
23 move in December?
24 A. No, I wasn't.
25 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Papale
26 requested that that move be postponed?
27 A. I knew, yes. I did know that.
1 Q. Ma'am, why didn't you call for
2 the canvass cards before January 27th?
3 A. Because of the election and the
4 fact that we never had any terminals.
5 Q. Could you have done it before
6 January 1?
7 A. I didn't see any purpose. The
8 cards -- we update our canvass records -
9 not our canvass records, excuse me. We
10 update our rolls on a daily basis. We take
11 people off the rolls for various reasons
12 and we put new registrations on. And I
13 didn't see any reason until January.
14 Q. Even though the law had changed?
15 A. But it said to do it in January,
16 and we did.
17 Q. Excuse me?
18 A. It said we had to conduct it in
19 January, and we did.
20 Q. And your testimony is that you
21 conducted the canvass in January?
22 A. We started it.
23 Q. No. Did you conduct it in
24 January?
25 A. Well, starting is conducting it
26 as far as I understand.
27 Q. Let's go through the steps in a
1 canvass. The ultimate, would you agree,
2 goal of a canvass is to remove certain
3 persons names from the voting rolls?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. As of this very minute has
6 anyone's name been removed from the voting
7 rolls in connection with the canvass which
8 you commenced in January?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And if you were allowed to go
11 forward with this canvass at this time,
12 when would those persons names be removed?
13_ A. We would start removing them
14 August 24th.
15 Q. Are you referring to' some notes?
16 A. No. This is just a calendar.
17 Q. When would they actually be
18 removed?
19 A. W'd start on the 24th. It takes
20 a ilaw days. It's a lot of cards. 8,000
21 cards with three people working. -
22 Q. Let's say it would be 30 days
23 later?
24 A. No. About 10.
25 Q. They'd be removed?
26 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
27 Q. They'd be gone from the rolls?
1 A. Right.
2 Q. That is with reference to the
3 canvass, correct?
4 A. That's part of it.
5 Q. Do you know how many people are
6 being subjected to removal for failure to
7 vote in four years?
8-
9
10
11
A. None right now.
Q. Excuse me?
A. None.
Q. Because you all haven't
12 calculated that number; isn't that correct?
13 A. .e c.anceled that canvaps. We
14 don't have cards for it. I don't know how
15 many. The computer tells me how many
16 people haven't voted in four years.
17 Q. Is it the plan of your office to
.18 go forward with that canvass before the
19 election?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Who would know that?
22 A. I guess Mr. Papale would.
23 Q. Have you been given any
24 instructions -- you indicated that you
25 ordered those cards. Where are those
26 cards?
27 A. They've been destroyed.
304
1 Q. They've been completely
2 destroyed?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. In other words, you would have to
5 order new cards?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. And if you ordered new cards
8 later this week, when would you receive
9 them?
10 A. In a few days. Approximately
11 two, three days.
12 Q. Who in your office knows how many
• 13 • people citywide would be subjected to
14
• 15
16
17 we get the cards from the computer room we
18 would know how many. The computer knows
19 how many people voted in four years.
20 • Q. Last year you conducted the
21 failure to vote for four year canvass?
22 A. No, we didn't.
23 Q. When was the last time you
24 conducted it?
25 A. 1985.
• 26 Q. For failure to vote every four
27 years?
cancellation for failure to vote in four
years?
A. Offhand nobody except as soon as
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. Isn't your office responsible for
3 doing that on an annual basis?
4 A. As far as I know.
5 Q. Why wasn't it done in '86?
6 A. Because of all the confusion we
7 had with getting our books onto the rolls,
8 onto the computer rolls.
9 Q. So because you couldn't get your
10 books together, you just didn't do it?
11 A. I don't know if there was any
12 other reason.
13 Q. You're aware of the law?
14 A. Some of it.
15 Q. You're aware that's a continuing
16 annual esponsibility of the Registrar?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Do you know if Mr. Papale
19 receivel permission from the Attorney
20 Genera i to cancel that particular canvass?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Did you yourself ever see an
23 Attorney General's opinion?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you yourself ever request an
26 Attorney General's opinion?
27 A. No.
1 Q. Do you know if he received any
2 permission from the Board of Election
3 Supervisors to cancel that canvass?
4 A. I'm not sure about •that.
5 Q. Did you yourself see any
'6 correspondence from them?
7
8
9
10
11
12
A. No.
Q. So in other words, for two years
y'all haven't conducted that particular
canvass?
A. Since 1985, right.
Q. Uh-huh (affirmative). And you
13 yourself do not know whether or not it's
14 going to be conducted this year?
15 A. It should be, but I don't know.
16 Q. And only .Mr. Papale would know?
17 MR. HABANS: Counse:. has
18 asked that.
19 THE COURT: Repetit:lous
20 counsel. We're dragging this thir.q on.
21 Let's get finished with this case.
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
23 Q. The Board of Election
24 Supervisors, Development Office, as you've
25 referred to it, is fairly prompt in getting
26 the cards to you?
27 A. When there's not an election,
1 yes.
2 Q. So you've testified that it
3 usually takes one week for them to prepare
4 as much as 90,000 cards?
5 A. Sure. There was a lot of cards
6 and they handled a lot of elections that
7 month.
8 Q. Is it fair to say if you had
9 ordered those cards before you moved you
10 would have had them before January 1?
11 A. Probably.
12 Q. When you conduct -- strike that.
13 You've testified that you all have received
14 in response to this --
15 THE COURT: The record don't
16 know what this is. Identify it.
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
18 Q. Defense Exhibit Number 9. •Many
19 of those, several hundreds, have come back,
20 correct?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. Ms. Nagel, this. notice is
23 directed at all of the voters in the city,
24 correct?
25 A. Right.
26 Q. There's no inf rmation on this
27 particular notice, is there, directed at
1 voters in Wards 8 and 9?
2 MR. HABANS: Objection. The
3 documents speaks for itself.
4 THE COURT: The document
5 speaks for itself. Objection sustained.
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
7 Q. You've received from, in response
8 to this particular card, several of these
9 that have returned. Is it fair to say that
10 they've been spread out over the city?
11
12
A. Yes.
Q. So they're not specifically for
13 Wards 8 and _9?
14 A. don't know how many are from
15 Wards 8 and 9. But I know some are.
16 Q. These persons William Saulberry,
17 Wayne Rile', to specifically name them, are
18 you aware l'hether or not their names were
19 published cn the notice in the newspaper on
20 May 7th, 1387?
21 A. I'm not sure about Mr. Saulberry.
22 But I know Wayne Riley probably was because
23 he received a citation. Mr. Saulberry
24 changed his address in our office on May
25 13th, 1987. So possibly he could have
26 received the card of irregularity and his
27 name would have -
1 Q.
2
Did the cards for him come back?
A. No. I don't have a record of it
3 in the first canvass. Oh, yes I'm sorry.
4 I misunderstood. The first canvass didn't,
5 come back.
6 Q. He had been subjected to
7 cancellation?
8 A. No. He was subjected to a letter
9 of irregularity. We don't cancel.
10 Q. Which subjects one to
11 cancellation?
12 A. Yeah.
13 THE COURT: He came into the .
14 office?
15 THE .WITNESS: He came into
16 the office. He appeared May 13th, 1987 and
17 changed his address, which took him out of
18 the canvass.
19 MR. MORIAL: No further.
20 questions, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: You can step
22 down.
23 MR. HABANS: One other
24 question, Your Honor.
25 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
26 Q. Ma'am, if you were able to start
27 and go all the way through to completion
1 with the canvass, that is, from the moment
2 you first ordered your canvass cards 'till
3 the last name is taken off of the rolls
4 after advertisement and legal delays, as
5 you understand it, how long does it take
6 your office to finish the canvass if your
7 computers are all up and everything is
8 beautiful?
9 A. You're talking about just the
10 second part of the canvass?
11 Q. No, ma'am, the whole thing?
12 A. From the first card?
13 Q. Yes. You said 29 days for the
14 second part. How long does it takes for
15 the whole canvass?
16 A. About three months. Three to
17 four months.
18 Q. You can't finish in the month of
19 January physically anyway, can you?
20 A. No way.
21 MR. HABANS: Thank you.
22 That's all I have.
23 * * * * * *
24
25
26
27
1 MR. HABANS: Your Honor,
2 we'd call Sam Altobello.
3 SAM J. ALTOBELLO, 1221
4 Elmwood Pk. Blvd., Harahan, Louisiana
5 70123, on Tuesday, July 21, 1987, after
6 having b,een first duly sworn to tell the
7 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
8 truth, was examined and testified as
9 follows:
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
11 Q. Mr. Altobello, you've been sworn,
12 sir?
13 • A. Yes, I'v been sworn.
14 Q. Would you tell the Court your
15 full name and,what you do?
16 A. My name is James J. Altobello.
17 I'm the Registrar of Voters for Jefferson
18 Parish.
19 Q. How long have you been Registrar
20 for Jefferson?
21 A. 1'm in my 17th year.
22 Q. Are you familiar with the
23 requirements of law that apply in your
24 office, sir, with respect to the
25 canvassing?
26 A. Yes, I am.
27 Q. Sir, before that what was the
1 policy of your office? That is, before the
2 '86 amendments as far as canvassing?
3 A. Whenever we felt we had a slack
4 period is when we canvassed.
5 Q. Did you take into consideration,
6 sir, anything about the next elections or
7 anything like that?
8 A. No. Jefferson Parish has too
9 many elections. We can't abide by that.
10 Q. So far this year, how many
11 elections has Jefferson had?
12 A. Four elections.
13 Q. How many more do you have
14 scheduled as we sit here?
15 A. Four more.
16 Q. Mr. Altobello, would you be good
17 enough to tell the Court in your effort to
18 comply with the statute when you began your
19 canvass for the 1987 canvass?
20 A. I initiated that --
21 MR. MORIAL: I just want to
22 object because I don't think any of this
23 testimony is relevant. I think it's
24 prejudicial. It's not relevant because the
25 only thing is at issue here is what the
26 Orleans Parish Registrar of Voters did.
27 THE COURT: This law applies
1 to all the parishes. It doesn't apply, to
2 Orleans Parish.
3 • MR. MORIAL: The Court is
4 entirely correct in that statement.
5 However, what is at issue in this
6 litigation is the actions of the Orleans
7 Parish Registrar of Voters.
8. THE COURT: We now have
9 another Registrar and his interpretation of
10 the statute. Objection overruled.
11 MR. HABANS: We've cited
12 contemporaneous construction provisions of
. the law.
14- THE COURT: Proceed.
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
16 Q. Mr. Altobello, would you tell the
17 Court what you did and when you did it to
:448 begin the 1987 canvass?
0 19 A. Well, I think I initiated -- I
20 called for my cards sometime in the latter
21 part of December. I got my cards on the
22 30th of December and mailed them then.
23 Q. That would be the 30th of
24 December?
25 - A. 1986 yes, sir.
26 Q. Why did you mail your cards
27 before January date?
1 A. Well, I knew I had a canvass in
2 January as prescribed by law. So I picked
3 a date that I would mail them to where I
4 can do my canvass because canvass takes
5 quite a while. We know that.
6 Q. How many registered voters are
7 there in Jefferson Parish?
8 A. At the time I canvassed there •was
9 204,000 registered voters.
10 Q. How does that compare with
11 Orleans?
12 A. I don't know what Orleans has,
13 250,000 or 260,000.
14 Q. When you sent -- when did you
15 mail your •first canvass cards if you
16 remember?
17 A. The canvass cards?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. On December 30th.
20 Q. And how lorlg after that was it
21 before your office completed its function
22 of attempting to complete all of the
23 canvass and purging of voters?
24 A. We finalized around February the
25 25th.
26 Q. Sir, you didn't finish in the
27 month of January, did you?
• - •
1 A. Impossible.
2 Q. Did you move between December
3 30th and February 25th, I believe you said.
4 A. No.
5 MR. MORIAL: Objection.
6 Leading.
7 THE COURT: Don't lead.
8 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS.
9 Q. Please tell the Court whether or
10 not anything happened to your office with
11 respect to its address from the date you
12 mailed the canvass cards until your canvass
13 was complete?
14 A. Well, I knew I was going to move,
15 but didn't know when. So we did this a
16 little bit earlier than we normally do it
17 by mailing the cards out in December. We
18 usually mail them out in January as we have
19 been in the past. We knew we were going to
20 move and didn't know when. At first we
21 were going to move before the first of the
22 year and sometime right after the first of
23 the year and it was an architectual
24 problem. And when they solved that they
25 finally decided on a special date. And
26 that was thrown out. It was in March.
27 Then we finally moved on April the 28th.
316
1 Q. Is it fair to say, sir, that you
2 did not move or relocate your office from
3 the time you mailed the cards until you
4 finished your canvass?
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
A. No, I was in place.
Q. Therefore, what was the address
of your office during the entire month of
January?
A. 300 Metairie Road.
Q. I take it now you're in another
location?
A. Yes.
13 Q. During the period that your
14 office conducted this canvass can you tell
15 the Court whether or not it was necessary
16 for your personnel to use computer
17 terminals?
18 A. Yes, positively. You have to
19 depend on that.
20 Q. Would you tell us, tell the
21 Court, whether or not your computer
22 terminals were operational?
23 MR. MORIAL: Objection.
24 He's leading the witness.
25 MR. HABANS: I'm asking
26 whether or not. I'm not suggesting yes
27 or -
1 THE COURT: Whether or not
2 doesn't take it out of the leading factor.
3 It's still leading.
4 MR. HABANS: This is so
5 harmless, I find this is disruptive.
6 MR. MORIAL: But the record
7 must be complete and the record must be
8 clear.
9 THE COURT: You can ask
10 him -- instead just ask him were your
11 computers in operation? That's all.
12 MR, HABANS: I can ask it
13 that way? Were your computers in
14 operation?
15 THE COURT: Certainly.
16 That's not leading.
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
18 Q. Please tell the Court the
19 condition of your computers from the time
20 you mailed your canvass vards until the
21 time the canvass was complete somewhere
22 around February 25.
23 A. Everything was okay. We had no
24 problems with our computer.
25 Q. As you apply the law, Mr.
26 Altobello, in Jefferson Parish, are you
27 familiar with what Section 192 of the
1 Election Code is?
2
3
A. Yes, I am.
Q. As you apply Section 192, sir,
4 what do you interpret the term "in January"
5 to mean?
6 A. It's initiating the canvass in
7 January. Now, I've conducted my canvass in
8- January this year and last year. But it
9 always takes much more than one month to do
10 it. Again, I say it's physically
11 impossible for a parish of my size or
12 Orleans, Caddo or East Baton Rouge. I name
13 those four because we're in contact with
14 each other constantly. And it can't be
15 done in one month.
16 Q. Sir, did Jefferson Parish hold
17 any elections in January or February within
18 the period that your canvass was going on?
19 A. Yes. I had an election January
20 17th.
21 Q. Did you interrupt in any way your
22 canvass because of the election?
23 A. No, sir.
24 Q. How do you interpret the
25 beginning of the canvass process, sir?
26 A. You mean the time period?
27 Q • No, sir. What physical act would
1 you •say begins the canvass process?
2 A. By the cards. By initiating,
3 getting the cards and mailing out the cards
4 is the physical act of canvass in the
5 parish.
6 Q. When you say "getting the cards,"
7 what are you talking about?
8 A. From the Development Center in
9 Baton Rouge through the Commissioner of
10 Elections Office.
11 Q. What would be the first step in
12 the process of sending out the canvass
13 cards?
14 A. After you get them?
15 Q. Before.
16 A. Before you get? You ask them for
17 them, you give them the wards and
18 precincts. This year I had Ward 1 through
19 4 and portions of 5. Then after we get the
20 cards they send the cards to us with all
21 the legal language on it and we mail them
22 out.
23 MR. HABANS: Thank you, Mr.
24 Altobello. That's all I have.
25 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
26 Q. How you doing, Mr. Altobello?
27 Whet• did you complete your canvass?
1 A. February 23rd or 25th of this
2 year.
3 Q. . It was completed?
4 A. It was completed.
5 Q. Now you were aware that the law
6 had changed?
7 A. Yes, I was.
8 Q. And as a result of that, you did
9 some things differently, did you not?
10 A. Well, I did it differently only
11 because we were told we were going to move
12 prior to the first of the year or right
13 after the first of _the year. But it
14 happened that I moved on April the 28th of
15 this year.
16 Q. Is it fair to say that you
17 planned your activities so that you would
18 mail your first set of canvass cards at the
19 very beginning of January?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. And you also knew you had
22 to move, correct?
23 A. Contemplating. Yes, we knew we
24 were going to move.
25 Q. As a result of that you took some
26 preparatory steps to insure that the
27 statutory functions of your office were not
1 interrupted?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Now, you say your parish has some
4 200,000 voters?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And it took you approximately
7 seven, eight weeks to complete the -
8
9
A. Yes, that's about the norm.
Q. That's from -- when you say
10 that's about the norm, that's what it
11 takes it's always taken?
12 A. Always, yes.
13 . Q. That's doing it efficiently and
14 doing it continuously?
15 A. Yes You have to understand that
16 we have to depend on the return cards from
17 the postal department. They don't always
18 come back in bundles. I think someone's
19 testified to that prior to me. We get them
20 in dribs and drabs and we wait until we get
21 enough and we go through our publishing and
22 five-day notices.
23 Q. Would you characterize some
24 elections as major and some as minor?
25 MR. HABANS: Objection, your
26 Honor. I don't understand what those terms
27 mean as counsel is using them. I'm not
sure it means the same to everybody.
2 THE COURT: Well, you're
3 talking about general and special
4 elections, is that what you're talking
5 about.
6 MR. MORIAL: In a sense,
7 yeah.
8 THE COURT: I think you
9 ought to ask him that.
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
11 Q. Is there a difference between
12 general and special elections?
13 A. You •have a primary election
14 first, then you have a general. Primary is
15 when everybody runs and what's left over
16 that'a a general election. They call them
17 runso2fs. But you also have proposition
18 election and special elections. So
19 actually a primary or general election is
20 the 6, ggest elections.
21 Q. On average since the primary
22 elections and special elections are bigger
23 elections it would mean that voter turn-out
24 and voter interest is much higher?
25 A. Yes, it is.
26 Q. You are familiar with the January
27 law change. Do you have any appreciation
1 as to why the legislature changed that law?
2 A. For two reasons really. I
3 testified on that particular piece of law a
4 few years ago. They finally did it. One
5 of the reasons was uniformity. Another
6 reason was at one time we did the whole
7 parish. It was too expensive. The
8- parishes couldn't affoiCI to give us the
9 money that we needed. Now they do the
10 one-fourth of it. It was changed years
11 ago. But I believe in essence, the thing
12 was uniformity.
13 Q. So all Registrars would conduct
14 their canvasses at the same time?
15 A. Mr. Morial, I have a bill -- I'm
16 trying to get a bill passed now c;here we
17 don't canvass. Registrars don't canvass
.18 physically. Let the Commissione:7 of
19 Elections Office canvass and bill the
20 parishes for it all in January.
21 Q. Uh-huh (affirmative). Did you
22 have any appreciation of any effect that
23 the timing of canvassing may have on the
24 voting public?
25 A. No, I don't take that into
26 consideration at all. I have too many
27 elections in my parish.
1 Q. Do you know if the timing of the
2 canvass, not from your standpoint, but from
3 the standpoint of the reactions you receive
4 from the voting public, is it any different
5 if the timing is nearer to a major
6 election?
7 A. The complaints are a little more
8 numerous, but not enough really.
9
10
11
Q. Not in your parish at least?
A. No, not in my parish.
Q. And in your parish is it fair to
12 say most of the time voter turn-out is not
13 as high as in a parish like Orleans?
14 A. We get 70, 80-percent turn out.
15 Q. In major elections?
16 A. Major elections.
17 Many local issues they're not as
18 contested as they are in Orleans?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Sir, you conducted the four-year
21 failure to vote four-year purge?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. When did you complete that?
24 A. June.
25 Q. Did you do it in '86?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And did you do it in '85?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And it is your appreciation
3 that's an annual requirement?
4 A. It's prescribed by law that we
5 should do it.
6 Q. And you don't know any provision
7 of law which allows you to unilaterally
8 postpone it, do you?
9 A. None that I know of. I'm not
10 aware of any.
11 Q. The function of your office is
12 ministerial?
13 A. That's right.
- 14 Q: They're not discretionary?
15 A. No. Well, we have some
16 discreticn when we have a problem. The
17 state works with us. The Commission of
18 Election •works with us. Yes. They give us
19 some leevay by the direction of the
20 Attorney General's office, also.
21 Q. Have you ever had a problem in
22 your office that was of such a nature that
23 you had to cancel a purge or a canvass?
24 A. No.
25 MR. MORIAL: No further
26 questions, Your Honor.
27 THE COURT: Okay.
1 MR. HABANS: No redirect,
2 Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: You can step
4 down. Thank you.
5 MR. HABANS: Call Dean
6 Papale, Your Honor.
7 A. E. PAPALE, Room 1W12,
8 City, Hall, 1300 Perdido, New Orleans,
9 Louisiana 70112, on Tuesday, July 21,
10 1987, after having been first duly sworn to
11 tell the truth, the whole truth, and
12 nothing but the truth, was examined and
13 testified as follows:
14 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
15 Q. Mr. Papale, please tell the Court
16 what your educational background is?
17 A. I have an A.B. degree from the
18 University of Pennsylvania. I have a LLB
19 from a Catholic University of America.
20 I've completed all the requirements or the
21 SJD degree at the Catholic University of
22 America. And I have an Honorary Doctorate
23 of Law degree from various universities in
24 New Orleans.
25 Q. Dean Papale, would you tell the
26 Court what you did before you became
27 Registrar of Voters?
1 A. I taught law for 20 years at
2 Loyola University. And then I served 19
3 more years at Loyola University as Dean of
4 the School of Law.
5 Q. How long have you been Registrar
6 of Voters for the Parish of Orleans?
7 A. Since May 25th, 1970.
8 Q. Dean Papale, have you recently
9 made any public announcement concerning
10 your retirement?
11 -MR. MORIAL: Objection, Your
12 Honor. That is just so irrelevant.
13 THE COURT: What's that got
14 to do with this case?
15 MR. HABANS: I las simply.
16 going to say he's announced his retirement
17 after being Registrar for 17 years.
18 MR. MORIAL: I move to
19 strike.
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
21 Q. Withdraw the question, Dean
22 Papale. Dean, would you "please tell the
23 Court what considerations you, take into
24 account, if any, in determining what wards
25 you will canvass annually?
26 A. We don't look to any criteria
27 other than we do one-fourth of the
328
1 precincts each year. We started with Ward
2 1 through 7 and went on just as Ms. Nagel
3 has testified.
4
5
6
7
8.
9 year?
Q. After 1 through 7, then 8 and 9?
A. That's right.
Q. And after 8 and 9 what else?
A. 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14.
Q. And then the rest in the next
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. Dean Papale, how long have you
12 been going through this rotation in the
13 same way with •the wards?
14 A. Ever since the time of the
15 election code.
16 Q. And how many years has that been
17 roughly, sir:
18 A. I think the election code went
19 into effect lither in '74 or '76.
20 Q. Dean Papale, would you tell the
21 Court what criteria, if any, you took into
22 consideration in determining why you
23 started at Ward 1?
24 A. It was the simplest thing to do.
25 You start from 1 and go onto 17.
26 Q • Dean Papale, what criteria does
27 your office take into consideration in
1 determining what voters in the designated
2 wards will annually be canvassed?
3 A. - No criteria.
4 MR. MORIAL: In an effort to
5 expedite it, I would stipulate that Dean
6 Papale's testimony with respect to this
7 this line of questioning would be the same
8 as Ms. Nagel with regard to --
9 THE COURT: That will save
10 some time.
11 MR. HABANS: All right, Your
12 Honor. That's fine. We'd accept the
13 stipulation. May I have the exhibits back,
14 please? And may I understand the
15 stipulation that in all respects Dean
16 Papale's testimony would be the same
17 concerning the mailing.
18 THE COURT: Everything she
19 testified to.
20 MR. HABANS: Very good.
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
22 Q. Dean Papale, some question was
23 raised concerning a voter purge conducted
24 by the Republican party last year. Did
25 your office have anything to do with that
26 purge?
27 A. None whatever except to the point
1 when Judge Lee in Alexandria filed a
2 Temporary Restraining Order which became
3 final and we were told to stop doing
4 anything concerning that so-called purge.
5 Technically, it's a challenge under Section
6 196 of the Election Code. I thought we put
7 that baby to bed yesterday.
8 Q. Dean Papale, did you file a
9 report with the City Council concerning
10 your activities?
11 A. I did.
12 Q. I'm going to show you what's been
13 marked for identification Defense Exhibit
14 2. Please look at that, Dean, and tell us
15 if that is a copy of the reports you filed
16 with the City Council?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. Did you do anything with that
19 report other than file it with the city
20 council.
21 A. When I requested an opinion from
22 the Attorney General, which was issued on
23 my request, a copy of this was attached to
24 the request for an opinion.
25 Q. I'm going to show you Defense
26 Exhibit Number 1 already in evidence, Mr.
27 Papale. Tell the Court what that is again?
I A. That's a request for an Attorney
2 General's opinion as to whether or not I
3 could postpone the annual canvass until
4 after the election of November the 21st,
5 whether I could postpone the annual canvass
6 of registered voters who have not voted in
7 a four-year period, and include with each
8 and every future notice --
9 Q. That's all right, Dean. The
10 document is already in evidence. The
11 opinion that every excuse me, the report .
12 marked Defense Exhibit 2 was attached to
13 - Defendant 1?
14 A. That's right.
15 , MR. HABANS: I'd like to
16 offer Exhibit 2 into evidence.
17 THE COURT: All right. You
18 marked it?
19 MR. HABANS: I have, Your
20 Honor.
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
22 Q. Mr. Papale, I'm going to show you
23 a letter dated June 7th and ask you if you
24 can identify that. It's marked for
25 identification Defendant's 5?
26 A. Yes, I'm familiar with this
27 document.
1 Q. Now, the date of the Exhibit 1,
2 the letter requesting the opinion of the
3 Attorney General, is dated June 9th; is
4 that right, sir? This is Exhibit 1, sir.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the letter that we're
7 referring to is two days before on June
8 7th; is that correct?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. I'd like to offer, introduce and
11 file into evidence Defendant's 5
12 THE COURT: What is it? A
13. letter from whom to whom?
14 MR. HABANS: It's a letter
15 to Mr. Guste -- Attorney General Guste from
16 Mr. Papale.
17 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, I
18 object on the basis of relevancy.
19 THE COURT: I don't know
20. what relevancy it has. That's not the
21 letter where he sets up all the resolution
22 and everything, is it?
23 MR. HABANS: Yesterday Mr.
24 Morial attempted to make something out of
25 what I perceived to be a suggestion that
26 Mr. Papale didn't disclose all the facts to
27 the Attorney General. I'm offering that
1 letter in response to that.
2 THE COURT: We got it
3 before. I'm going to let it. Mark it for
4 identification.
5 MR. HABANS: Thank you. It
6 is.marked.
7 THE COURT: There's nothing
8- new in that. We've had all of that before
9 me.
10 MR. HABANS: I will offer it
11 and you've introduced it, you said, Your
12 Honor.
13 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
14 Q. And I'm going to show you Defense
15 Exhibit Number 6, sir. Is that
16 correspondence between you and the City
17 Council?
.18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. Offer Exhibit 6 into evidence,
20 Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Which Exhibit,
22 6?
23 MR. HABANS: A letter from
24 Mr. Papale to the City Council dated June
25 22.
26 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
27 Q. Mr. Papale, are you familiar with
1 a reauirement of law that every precinct
2 must be canvassed at least every four
3 years?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Can you tell us whether or not
6 your office has managed to do that on a
7 four-year cycle?
8 A. We have done that.
9 Q. Has your, own house been
10 canvassed, Mr. Papale?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Mr. Papale, did you have any
13 communication with the City. Council
14 concerning your move -- excuse me, not the
15 City Council, the Administration of the
16 City of New Orleans at the time that they
17 were contemplating 7-Aloving your office?
18 A. Yeah, a 1pt of correspondence.
19 Q. Would you tell the Court what
20 your position was with respect to the move
21 prior to January 17th?
22 A. I resisted it for the simple
23 reason that we had an election coming up in
24 November. I didn't want to be involved in
25 a canvass during the election.
26 Q. Excuse me --
27 THE COURT: I think you're
1 talking about past that.
2 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:
3 Q. Yes, I am. I'm talking about
4 from December through January, sir?
5 A. Ask the question again.
6 Q. Yes, sir. What was the position
7 that your office took concerning being
8 moved or the intent of the City of New
9 Orleans to move your office prior to
10 January 17th?
11 A. Again, I tried to get them to
12 postpone it until after that election.
13 Q. What was the reason that you
14
15 A. The reason was that it would
16
17 the computers were down, we were moved
18 without much ado. We were thrown into a
19 chaotic situation. And it would be
20 extremely difficult to conduct or service
21 that election without a full compliment of
22 our computers which we need particularly on
23 election day when people call in and say
24 their certificates are not in the precinct
25 binder and they have other difficulties and
26 we have to check the computer to see if
27 these people are registered, and if they
asked for postponement?
cause a great deal of difficulty because
1 are, then we permit those people when the
2 commissioner calls to vote by affidavit.
3 Q. Dean Papale -
4 THE COURT: Let me ask him a
5 question. The election you're talking
6 about is the proposition election?
7 THE WITNESS: That's right.
8 THE COURT: That's in
9 January?
10 THE WITNESS: Yeah. My
11 reference is to all elections. We have
12 installed on election day what we -
13 THE COURT: No, but his
14 question was why did you oppose moving and
15 obviously your answer is in connection with
16 when you talk about the chaotic condition
17 you're talking about in connection with the
18 January 17th election, proposition
19 election?
26 THE WITNESS: That's
21 correct.
22 THE COURT: I'm trying to
23 understand what he's saying.
24 MR. MORIAL: I think maybe
25 we misunderstood. I think he was referring
26 to the November 4th election.
27 THE COURT: We got past
1 that. We straightened out on that. Mr.
2 Habans straightened him on that. He did
3 . get that extension of time. We're talking
4 about -- I think his testimony now is in
5 connection with the January 17th.
6 MR. MORIAL: I think that's
7 when he said he initially resisted when the
8 November 4th --
9 THE COURT: Originally, yes.
10 MR. MORIAL: And they gave
11 him a grace period.
12 THE COURT: That's right?
13 THE WITNESS: That's
14 correct.
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. HABANS:.
16 Q. Mr. Papale, ws your request to
17 extend your move until, after January 17
18 granted by the City?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. Mr. Papale, was it the fault of
21 your office in any way that you know of
22 that your computer system was not
23 operational until March 16th, 1987?
24 A. No fault on our part.
25 Q. Mr. Papale, do you take into
26 consideration any demographic or other
27 criteria in determining what wards will be
1 canvassed with respect to what the
2 plaintiffs contends are major elections?
3 MR. MORIAL: Objection.
4 It's been asked and answered.
5 THE COURT: Repetitious,
6 counsel. It's been covered.
7 MR. HABANS: If it's been
8. clear that it's been answered no.
9 THE COURT: It's been
10 covered.
11 MR. HABANS: I have no
12 further questions of Dean Papale.
13 THE COURT: Mr. Morial, any
14 cross?
15 MR. MORIAL: Very briefly,
16 Your Honor.
17 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
.18 Q. You recall testifying in the
19 Republican canvass purge trial?.
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. You recall giving testimony that
22 having challenges and canvasses near major
23 elections would impair the ability of your
24 office to conduct absentee balloting?
25 A. I have no recollection.
26 Q. Do you have any recollection in
27 that trial of referring to the persons who
1 were going to be purged as dead wood?
2 A. No, sir.
3 Q. Do you want to read this
4 transcript?
5 A. If it's in there, I said it.
6 MR. HABANS: Your Honor, if
7 the Court please, this was done -
8 THE COURT: What's that got
9 to do with the issue before me?
10 MR. MORIAL: It's just
11 impeachment.
12 MR. HABANS: This is
13 repetitious of what Mr. Morial did when he
14 called --
15 THE COURT: It's not new to
16 me. I've heard it before.
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
18 Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Papale, you
19 received an opinion of the Attorney General
20 -sometime in the middle of June, correct?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. And it was your interpretation
23 according to that opinion that you could
24 complete the canvass, correct?
25 A. That's correct.
26 Q. Okay. Between June approximately
27 the 15th or so, when the Attorney General's
1 opinion was issued and July 2nd, 1987,
2 what, if anything, did your office do
3 toward completing the canvass?
4 A. We didn't have to do anything.
5 Q. You didn't have to do a thing?
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. You didn't have to mail cards?
8 A. Eventually we would.
9 Q. What was the reason for delay?
10 A. The outcome of the Attorney
11 General's opinion.
12 Q. I'm talking about after the
13 Attorney General's opinion was decided and
14
15 A. Well, it was a resolution passed
16
17
18 Attorney General's opinion answered in your
19 mind what you should do with respect to the
20 City Council resolution?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. So, is it fair to say that that
23 was approximately in the middle of June?
24 A. If that's the date of the
25 Attorney General's opinion.
26 Q. I'm asking you in that window of
before the restraining order was issued.
by the City Council.
Q. You've testifiei that the
27 time --
1 THE COURT: Give him the
2 date of the T.R.O. and the date.
3 MR. MORIAL: Do you have the
4 Attorney General's opinion?
5 MR. HABANS: It's in
6 evidence.
7 THE COURT: What's the date
8 of the Temporary Restraining Order?
9
10
11
12
MR. MORIAL: July 2nd.
THE COURT: You want to know
between those date?
EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
13 Q. Between June 15th, 1987 whi_ch is
14 the date of the Attorney General's opinion
15 which has been admitted into evidence as
16 Defense Exhibit 4, and July 2nd, 1987 when
17 the Temporary Restraining Order was issued
18 in this case, what, if anything, did your
. 19 office do to complete the canvass?
20 A. Wrote a letter to the City
21 Council alerting them that we were going to
22 start.
23 Q. Was any mail put -- were any of
24 the cards placed in the mail?
25 A. Not yet.
26 Q. When had you planned to do that?
27 A. In due course.
342
1 . Q. What does due course mean?
2 A. Whenever we found it appropriate
3 to start that canvass from where we left
4 off.
5 Q. Does it mean the same thing as
6 with all deliberate speed?
7 A. I have no such mandate.
8 Q. No such mandate to do what?
9 A. To go with all deliberate speed.
10
11
12
13 perform them in the proper manner as soon
14 and as expeditious as possible.
15 Q. Is it your testimony here today
16 that all the law requires you to do is
17 start the canvass in January?
18 A. That's my opinion.
19 Q. And is it your position here
20 toclAy that you could complete the canvass
21 whenever?
22
23
24
25
26 Q. Whenever you finished it. It
27
I have to take into account all of the
functions, all of the duties, not just one.
I have multiple functions to perform and I
MR. HABANS: Excuse me. I
object to the "whenever," Your Honor. What
does that mean?
EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
didn't matter whether it happened soon
1 after January or any time?
2 A. As Ms. Nagel has testified, we
3 called for the canvass cards on the 27th of
4 January. Those cards -
5 Q. Can I interrupt? Can you answer
6 my question?
7 A. Yes.
8. THE COURT: I think the
9 question has already been answered. You
10 adopted the testimony of Ms. Nagel, and
11 she's answered that question.
12 MR. MORIAL: I don't know if
13 she answered the question with regard to
14 the position of the office with regard to
15 whether they feel the law requires them to
16 complete the canvass.
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. MORIAL:
18 Q. Do you have discretien? You can
19 complete it whenever you want? .
20
21 no.
22
23 it?
24
A. I didn't say that. would say
Q. No? When do you have to complete
A. As soon as possible after we
25 start and you know full well that we were
26 not able to start until this date.
27 Q. I know Mr. Altobello was able to
1 start and his office was moving. No
2 further questions.
3 MR. HABANS: Objection.
4 Move to strike counsel's last speech. It
5 wasn't a question.
6 THE COURT: It's a court of
7 record. We don't strike anything.
8 MR. HABANS: Your Honor, we
9 have prayed for attorney's fees in accord
10 with our -- we filed two exceptions, those
11 of no. right and no cause of action and --
12 THE COURT: You're talking
13 about dissolve the restraining order?
14 MR. HABANS: A Motion to
15 Dissolve the Restraining Order.
16 THE COURT: Make the
17 evidence. What kind of evidence do you
18 have on that?
19 MR. HABANS: I have a
20 computer printout of the timing and
21 expenses that we have incurred.
22 THE COURT: Mark it for
23 identification.
24 MR. HABANS: I've marked it
25 for Exhibit 22, Your Honor. For trial time
26 on today we have -- we started at 9:30, as
27 I recall. So that's one and three quarter
1 hours.
2 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, we
3 too have prayed for attorney's fees.
4 THE COURT: You got
5 exhibits?
6 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, I
7 have no exhibits because it would be my
8 appreciation that it would be appropriate
9 to submit those after trial.
10 THE COURT: Come take the
11 stand and you can tell us what you charge
12 per hour and the number of hours you spent.
13 MR. HABANS: Your Honor, in
14 connection with this offer, before Mr.
15 Morial does that, I would like to also
16 offer, if the Court bears with me one
17 moment the letter from the Attorney
18 General, which contains an hourly rate that
19 I can charge and staff members in my office
20 could , arge which I've marked Exhibit 23
21 and offer that into evidence. I've also
22 marked, I believe, Exhibit 24 which is a
23 copy of the applicable section authorizing
24 the Attorney General to do that. And
25 Defense Exhibit 22 is the total statement
26 of my time through last evening together
27 with the time for today, Your Honor, which
•
e•-•
1 I would offer, introduce and file into
2 evidence in support of the attorney's fee
3 0 - award.
4 THE COURT: I'd like to have
5 all those exhibits together if you don't
6 mind.
7 MR. HABANS: Yes. I'll hand
8 them to you all together.
9 MR. MORIAL: Your Honor, I
10 can submit to you the requisite affidavit
11 and bills before •the close of business
12 today.
13 THE COURT: Before the close
14 of business -today? I'll be long gone out
15 of here. My duty time was up yesterday. I
16 extended convenience to everybody around
17 here and I expect to close it out in an
18 hour or so.
19 MARC MORIAL, 639 Loyola
20 Avenue, Suite 1610, New Orleans,
21 Louisiana 70113, on Tuesday, July 21,
22 1987, after having been first duly sworn to
23 tell the truth, the whole truth, and
24 nothing but the truth, was examined and
25 testified as follows:
26 MR. MORIAL: For the record
27 my name is Marc Morial. I'm,a licensed
347
1 attorney in Louisiana. I was admitted to
2 the bar in 1984. I too am a graduate of
3 the University of Pennsylvania. Received
4 my BA degree in 1980 in the field of
5 Economics.' Graduated in 1983 from
6 Georgetown University School of Law. Spent
7 two years with the law firm of Barham &
8 Churchill in New Orleans. Since then I've
9 been engaged in the private practice of law
10 in New Orleans for Marc Morial Professional
11 Law Corporation. In connection with this
12 proceeding I have been retained by my
13 clients here today the Louisiana Voter
14 Registration Education Crusade, et al to
15 prepare this lawsuit, do all legal research
16 necessary as well as try this case.
17 Preparation for this particular lawsuit
18 began on June 22nd, 1987 and continued
19 through the date of filing of this lawsuit
20 which took place on July 2nd 1987.
21 Approximately 15 hours were spent in
22 preparation, research, interviewing
23 clients, preparing the pleadings and
24 affidavits in connection thereto. On July
25 2nd, one hour was spent in court delivering
26 and presenting the Temporary Restraining
27 Order to the Court and obtaining a
348
1 signature thereon. On the following week
2 preparation was spent on trial, defending a
3 Motion to Continue filed by the defendants,
4 preparing an Opposition to a Writ prepared
5 by the defendants of the Fourth Circuit
6 Court of Appeal. Approximately 12 hours
7 was spent during that week on those various
8. matters as well as for preparation for
9 trial. On yesterday and today time was
10 spent in court trying this case. I think
11 the approximate number of hours is nine.
12 And in addition to that, each morning
13 approximately one,. hour was spent in
14 preparation for trial and on yesterday
15 evening approximately two and a half hours
16 was spent with my clients reviewing this
17 day's testmony and preparing for today's
_18 proceedings. My applicable rate is $85.00
19 per hour for time spent in connection with
20 this litigfttion.
21 THE COURT: You got anything
22 to ask him?
23
24
25
MR. HABANS: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Step down.
MR. HABANS: Your Honor, do
26 you need me to swear to the information I
27 have submitted to the Court.
349
1 THE COURT: Huh-uh
2 (negative.
3 MR. HABANS: Thank you.
4 THE COURT: Its 11:25. If
5 y'all want to argue, I'm going to give you
6 to 12:00 o'clock. You each have 20 minutes
7 to argue if you want to argue.
8 MR. MORIAL: Yes, Your
9 Honor.
10 (PLAINTIFF AND DEFENSE ARGUED THEIR CASE)
11 THE COURT: The matter is
12 submitted and I'll make my report to Judge
13 Ganucheau.
14 * * * * * * *
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
.350
1 THE LA. VOTER REG., ET AL CASE NO. 87-12071
2 v.
3 OFFICE OF REGISTRAR OF
4 VOTERS, ET AL DIVISION "K"
5
6
7
I A!
8
9 CERTIFICATE
10
11
12
13 accurate transcript of the testimony, given
14
15
I, Jan I. Schmidt, CSR, RPR,
Official Court Reporter, do hereby certify
that the foregoing 351 pages is a true and
during the above-numbered and entitled case
on July 20, 1987 and July 21, 1987 before
16 the HONORABLE CHARLES RIVET, Presiding
17 Judge.
18
19
20
Jaff I. Schmidt, CSR, RPR
21 Official Court Reporter
22
23
New Orleans, Louisiana
24 August 5, 1987
25
26
27
351