Carter v. School Board of Arlington County, Virginia Appendix on Behalf of Appellants
Public Court Documents
December 7, 1949

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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Carter v. School Board of Arlington County, Virginia Appendix on Behalf of Appellants, 1949. d6e90e19-ad9a-ee11-be37-00224827e97b. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/9ac30853-32e6-489b-96ee-7d5a69e22d86/carter-v-school-board-of-arlington-county-virginia-appendix-on-behalf-of-appellants. Accessed April 19, 2025.
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APPENDIX ON BEHALF OF APPELLANTS UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FO R T H E FO U RTH CIRCUIT, No, 6064. CONSTANCE CARTER, an infant, by her Parent and Next Friend, ELEANOR TAYLOR, et al„ Appellants, versus THE SCHOOL BOARD OF ARLINGTON COUNTY, VIRGINIA, a body corporate, and FLETCH ER KEMP, Superintendent of Schools of Arlington County, Virginia, et al., Appellees. A p p e a l f r o m th e D is t r ic t C ourt o f th e Un ited St a t e s fo r th e E a stern D ist r ic t o f V irg in ia , Alexandria D iv isio n . H il l , M artin & R obinson , 623 North Third Street, Richmond 19, Virginia. L eon A. R ansom 1939 13th Street, Washington, D. C. Counsel for Appellants Lawyers Publishing Co. , Inc.—Richmond, Va. INDEX TO APPENDIX Page Amended Complaint ..................................................................... 1 Petition for Intervention ............................................................. 12 Extracts for Testimony ............................................................. 17 Eleanor Taylor .......................................................................... 17 J. Ruppert Picott ................................................................... 23 Martin D. Jenkins ................................................................ 78 Edward B. Henderson................................................................. 150 Ellis O. Knox .......................................................................... 157 Julius Brevard .......................................................................... 207 Peggy Council .......................................................................... 211 Charles J. Walsh ..................................................................... 223 Stephen McClelland Sydnor ............................................... 234 William A. Early .................................................................... 241 Howard A. Dawson ............................................................... 246 Elizabeth Pfohl Campbell 269 William A. Early (Recalled) ............................................. 271 Allen C. Brodnax ..................................................................... 275 William A. Early (Recalled) ............................................... 276 Peggy Council (Recalled) .................................................... 277 C. N. Bennett ............................................................................ 283 Simon L, Alsop .......................................................................... 288 William H. Barnes ................................................................... 297 J. Ruppert Picott (Recalled) ............................................... 310 Martin D. Jenkins (Recalled) 314 Ellis O. Knox (Recalled) ...................................................... 323 R. Worth Peters ........................................................................ 328 Excerpts from “A Report On a Comparison of the Wash ington-Lee and Hoffman-Boston High Schools, Arlington County, Virginia,” by Howard A. Dawson 331 Table XXX — Number & Titles of Books Under Each Classification in Libraries of Washington-Lee and Hoffman-Bos ton Schools, Arlington County, Vir ginia ........................................................ 332 INDEX (Continued) Page Table XXXVII — Courses a Student Has An Opportun ity to Take In a Three-Year Cycle, Washington-Lee and Hoffman-Bos- ton Senior High Schools, Arlington County, Virginia ......................... 333-334 Table XXXIX — Club and Activity Programs in Wash ington-Lee anl Hoffman-Boston Sen ior High Schools, Arlington County, Virginia, 1948-49 .................................. 335 Table XXXX — Summer Programs of Instruction, Washington-Lee and Hoffman-Bos ton Senior High Schools, Arlington County, Virginia, 1948-49 336 Appendix H — List of Subjects Taught By Grades and Number of Pupils Enrolled in Each Subject, Washington-Lee and Hoffman-Boston Senior High Schools, Arlington County, Virginia, 1948- 49 337-339 Excerpt from Plaintiff’s Exhibit 94 — “Report of Principal, June 10, 1949” 340 Excerpt from Plaintiff’s Exhibit’s 99 — “A Comprehensive Program of Education for Virginia’s Public Schools” .... 340 Opinion of the Court ..................................................................... 343 Final Decree 364 UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FO R TH E FO U RTH CIRCUIT. No. 8064. CONSTANCE CARTER, an infant, by her Parent and Next Friend, ELEANOR TAYLOR, et a l, Appellants, versus THE SCHOOL BOARD OF ARLINGTON COUNTY, VIRGINIA, a body corporate, and FLETCH ER KEMP, Superintendent of Schools of Arlington County, Virginia, et al., Appellees. A p p e a l fr o m th e D ist r ic t C ourt o f th e U n ited Sta t es fo r t h e E a stern D is t r ic t o f V irgin ia , Alexan dria D iv isio n . APPENDIX ON BEHALF OF APPELLANT AMENDED COMPLAINT FOR A MANDATORY INJUNCTION AND FOR A DECLARATORY JUDGMENT (R. pp. 15-22) 1. The jurisdiction of this Court is invoked under Judicial Code, section 24 (1) (28 U. S. C. section 4 1 (1 )) , this being a suit in equity which arises under [ 2 ] the Constitution and/or laws of the United States, viz., the Fourteenth Amendment to said Constitution, andy'or Sections 41 and 43 of Title 8 of the United States Code, wherein the matter in controversy ex ceeds, exclusive of interest and costs, the sum of $300.00. The jurisdiction of this Court is also invoked under Judicial Code, section 24 (14), (28 U. S. C., section 4 1 (1 4 )) this being a suit in equity authorized by law to be brought to redress the deprivation, under color of law, statute, regulation, custom and usage of a State, of rights, privileges and immunities secured by the Constitution of the United States, viz., the Four teenth Amendment to said Constitution, and of rights secured by laws of the United States providing for equal rights of citizens of the United States and of all persons within the jurisdiction of the United States, viz., sections 41 and 43 of Title 8 of the United States Code. 2. Plaintiff shows further that this is a proceeding for a declaratory judgment and an injunction under Section 274d of the Judicial Code (28 U. S. C., sec. 400) for the purpose of determining a question in actual controversy between the parties, to-wit, the question of whether the practice of the defendants, in adopt ing, enforcing and maintaining the policy, custom and usage by which plaintiff and other Negro children of high school age in Arlington County, Virginia, are denied and deprived of the same or equal educational facilities, courses and curricula in the public high schools of Arlington County, Virginia which are fur nished and provided for white school children of Ar lington County possessing the same qualifications and experience, solely on account of their race and color [ 3 ] is unconstitutional and void, being a violation of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States and of the laws of the United States and of the Constitution and Laws of the Commonwealth of Virginia, all of which will appear more fully herein after. 3. All parties to this action, both plaintiff and de fendant, are citizens of the United States and of the State of Virginia, and are resident in and domiciled in said State. Defendant School Board of Arlington County at all times mentioned herein was and is by law declared to be a body corporate and is an agency of the State of Virginia. 4. Plaintiff, Constance Carter, and her Mother and Next Friend, Eleanor Taylor, are colored, persons of African descent and of the Negro race and blood. They are taxpayers of the County of Arlington and of the State of Virginia. Plaintiff is an infant of school age, required by the laws of the State of Virginia to at tend the public schools of the County of Arlington. Having completed, in June, 1947 the requirements for Junior High School Education established by the de fendants, plaintiff is now eligible for and required by law to enter the Senior High School Division of the public school system of Arlington County, Vir ginia. This suit is brought on her own behalf and also on behalf of more than three hundred other per sons, namely students in the colored schools of Ar lington County, Virginia, similarly situated and affect ed, as will hereinafter more fully appear, and who are too numerous to be brought into this court. 5. Defendant School Board of the County of Ar lington exists pursuant to the laws of Virginia as an [ 4 ] administrative department of the State of Virginia discharging governmental functions ( Constitution of Virginia, Article IX, Section 133; Chapter 33, Sec tions 653, 653al, Michie’s Code of Virginia, 1942, as amended). Defendant Fletcher Kemp is Superinten dent of Schools of Arlington County, Virginia and holds office pursuant to the Constitution and laws of Virginia as an administrative officer of the public free school system of Virginia (Constitution of Virginia, Article IX, Section 133; Chapter 33, Sections 611, 611a, Michie’s Code of Virginia, 1942, as amended). Defend ant Fletcher Kemp is made a defendant herein and is sued in his official capacity. 6. The State of Virginia has declared public ed ucation a State function. The Constitution of Virgin ia, Article IX, Section 129, provides: “Free schools to be maintained.---- The general assembly shall establish and maintain an efficient system of public free schools throughout the State.” Pursuant to this mandate the General Assembly of Virginia has established a system of free public schools in the State of Virginia according to a plan set out in Chapters 33 and 35, Michie’s Code of Virginia, 1942 as amended, Provision has been made for the establish ment of separate schools for white and colored per sons with the positive duty of maintaining these sep arate and segregated schools under the same general regulations as to management, usefulness and efficiency (Section 680, Michie’s Code of Virginia, 1942, as a- mended). The. establishment, maintance and adminis tration of the public schools of Virginia and of the public school system of said state is vested in a [ 5 ] State Board of Education, a Superintendant of Public Instruction, division superintendents of schools and county and city school boards (Constitution of Virgin ia, Article IX, Sections 131-183; Section 611, 611a, Michie’s Code of Virginia, 1942, as amended). 7. By virtue of Chapter 33, Section 682, Michie’s Code of Virginia, 1942, as amended, all children be tween the ages of seven and twenty are entitled to a free education at the public expense; between the ages of seven, and the the end of the fifteenth year all such children, by virtue of the provisions of Chapter 33, Sec tion 683, Michie’s Code of Virginia, 1942, as amended, are compelled to attend the public free schools. The duty of enforcing this system is imposed upon the several county and city school boards, including the defendant School Board of Arlington County (Chapter 33, Section 660, Michie’s Code of Virginia, 1942, as amended). Negro and white children alike must meet these requirements and are entitled to the same pri vileges therein (Chapter 33, Section 680, Michies Code of Virginia, 1942, as amended). 8. The public schools of the County of Arlington, Virginia, including the Hoffman-Boston Senior High School (for Negro pupils) and the Washington-Lee Sen ior High School (for white pupils) in the City of Arling ton, Virginia, are under the direct control and super vision of the defendants acting as an administrative department or division of the Commonwealth of Vir ginia (Virginia School Code, Chapter 33, Sections 653, 653al, 672, Michie’s Code of Virginia, 1942, as amend ed ); the defendants are under a duty to maintain an effi cient and equal system of public schools in the County of Arlington for the white and Negro pupils of said [ 6 ] county (Michie’s Code of Virginia, 1942, as amended, Chapter 33, Sections 611, 680); and to enforce the school laws of the Commonwealth of Virginia ( Michie’s Code of Virginia, 1942, as amended, Chapter 33, Sec tion 660). Defendants are under a duty to provide the same or equal facilities, equipment, courses of instruc tion, curricula and efficiency of instruction in the schools maintained for Negoes as those maintained for white residents of the county (Chapter 33, Section 680, Michie’s Code of Virginia, 1942, as amended). 9. Defendants over a long period of years have con sistently pursued and maintained and are now pursuing and maintaining the policy, custom and usage of pro viding for white pupils of the Senior High Schools of Arlington County, Virginia, courses of instruction, cur ricula, facilities for educational and recreational instruc tion, materials and supplies for such instruction and other educational opportunities which are denied to the Negro Senior High School pupils of Arlington County, Virginia, solely on account of their race and color, all of which practice, custom and usage is dis criminatory and contrary to the laws and Constitution of the United States and of the State of Virginia. 10. Plaintiff has completed, as of June, 1947, all of the requirements for a Junior High School education prescribed by the defendants. As a result thereof, she is entitled to a free education in the Senior High Schools of Arlington County, Virginia for the courses prescribed and offered therein. On to-wit, the 4th day of September, 1947, that being an official registra tion date for pupils in the said public schools of Ar lington County, Virginia, plaintiff presented herself to the Hoffman-Boston Senior High School (for Negro [ 7 ] pupils) in Arlington County, Virginia, and requested enrollment therein and registration for the courses in Spanish, Civics III, Typewriting and Physical Educa tion as elective courses, in addition to the required courses provided by said school under the curriculum estabished by state law for all pupils in said public school system. Plaintiff was advised and informed, and therefor believes and avers, by the principal of said school, that no course in Spanish or Civics III was offered by said PIoffman-Boston School, and that no course in Typewriting could be offered plaintiff at the present time because, while there were machines available, there were no tables or desks upon which thy could be operated, and that there were no facilities of any kind available for the course in Physical Ed ucation. 11. Being advised and informed, and therefor be lieving, that said courses desired and requested by plaintiff were being offered at the Washington-Lee Senior High School (for whites) in said Arlington County, Plaintiff presented herself to said Washington Lee High School on the same date to-wit, September 4, 1947, and requested admission therein for the same courses as aforesaid; plaintiff was informed and ad vised, and therefor avers, that said courses of instruc tion are now offered to the pupils of said Washington- Lee High School; that typewriters and typing tables or desks are furnished and provided at the county and state expense to the pupils thereof by the defend ants herein and that adequate facilities for instruction in Physical Education, including athletic fields, gym nasium and equipment are likewise provided for the pupils in said school; nevertheless plaintiff was denied [83 and refused admission to and registration in the courses solely on the ground and for the reason that she is a person of colored blood, of African descent and of Negro race and blood, and that said Washington-Lee High School is maintained only for persons of the white race and blood. 12. The curricula and facilities provided at Hoffman- Boston and Washington-Lee Senior High Schools for pupils possessing the same qualifications and having attained the same degree of educational proficiency are based solely on the race or color of the pupil and amount to an unlawful discrimination which consti tutes a denial of due process of law and equal pro tection of the laws guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, and is therefore unconstitutional and void. 13. In enforcing and maintaining the policy, reg ulation, custom and usage by which plaintiff and other Negro pupils in the public schools of Arlington County, Virginia, are offered less and inferior courses of ed- ueation, and denied the privilege of taking certain courses that are offered to white pupils of the county having the same qualifications and educational back ground and experience, solely on account of their race and color, defendants, as administrative officers of the Commonwealth of Virginia, have violated and are con tinuing to violate the equal protection of the law and due process clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States and Section 41 and 43 of Title 8 of the United States Code. To the extent that defendants in enforcing said discriminatory system are acting under color of statute, regulation, policy, custom or usage, said statute, regulation, policy, cus 19 j tom or usage is void and unconstitutional, and to the extent that defendants may be acting without benefit of statute, regulation, policy, custom or usage, their acts are nevertheless acts of the State, similarly void and unconstitutional. 14. Plaintiff, Constance Carter, her Mother and Next Friend, and those on whose behalf she sues, being similarly situated, are citizens and residents of the Commonwealth of Virginia and contribute directly and indirectly to the creation of the common public school fund of the County of Arlington and the Commonwealth of Virginia, which said fund is de voted to the maintainance of the public schools of Virginia (Constitution of Virginia, Article IX, Sec tions 135, 136; Chapter 33, Sections 657, 698a, 699, Michie’s Code of Virginia, 1942, as amended). Under the Constitution of Virginia said public school fund is to be administered for the equal benefit of all the people of the state (Constitution of Virginia, Article IX, Section 135). 15. By virtue of the discriminatory practice, custom and usage of the defendants regarding the educational facilities and courses offered to plaintiff and those simar- ly situated hereinbefore set forth in Paragraphs 10,11, and 12, the plaintiff is denied an equal and proportion ate participation in the benefit derived from that portion of the taxes paid by her and her parent and next friend and devoted to the public school fund; she is denied said equal and proportionate benefit and participation solely on account of her race and color, contrary to the pro visions of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitu tion of the United States and thereby suffers and sus tains special and particular damage from the discrim- [ io j iiiatlon practiced against her in the distribution of the fund which her taxes help to create; and she is with out remedy save this Honorable Court issue its writ of injunction restraining the defendants from expend ing, on an unconstitutional basis, and according to the discriminatory and unconstitutional practices and usages hereinbefore set forth, the public school funds to which plaintiff contributes and which is used for the maintenance of the public school, by which special courses of instruction, privileges of education and ed ucational facilities are furnished to the white pupils of Arlington County and are denied to plaintiff and those on whose behalf she sues. 16. Plaintiff and those similarly situated and affected on whose behalf she brings this action are suffering irreparable injury and are threatened with irreparable injury in the future by reason of the acts herein com plained of. They have no plain adequate or complete remedy to redress the wrongs and illegal acts herein complained of other than this suit for a declaration of rights and an injunction. Any other right or remedy to which plaintiff and those on whose behalf she sues, who are similarly situated, could be remitted would be attended by such uncertainties and delays as to deny substantial relief, would involve a multiplicity of suits, cause further irreparable injury, and occasion damage, vexation and inconvenience not only to the plaintiff and those similarly situated, but to defend ants and governmental agencies. 17. There is between the parties hereto an actual controversy as hereinbefore set forth.J W HEREFORE, THE PREMISES CONSIDERED, Plaintiff respectfully prays: [ 1 1 ] 1. That the process of this Court may issue to the Defendants herein requiring them and each of them to answer the exigencies of this complaint. 2. That upon the filing of this complaint, as may appear proper and convenient to this Court, the Court advance this causes upon the docket and order a speedy hearing of this action according to law, and that upon such hearing: a. That this Court adjudge and decree and de clare the rights and legal relations of the parties to the subject matter here in controversy, in order that such declaration shall have the force and effect of a final judgment or decree. b. That this Court enter a judgment or decree declaring that the policy, custom or usage of the defendants in adopting, enforcing or maintaining a system of education, offering courses of instruc tion and affording facilities for educational pur poses to Plaintiff and other Negro pupils similarly situated differing from and inferior to those pro vided for and offered to white pupils of Arlington County, solely on account of their race and color, is a denial of the equal protection of the laws guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States and is therefore unconstitutional and void. c. That this Court issue a permanent mandatory injunction restraining the defendants, and each of them, from making any distinction or difference in the type of instruction, number of courses offered, methods of instruction, facilities provided for in struction, or in any other manner or wise afford ing Plaintiff and those on whose behalf she brings [ 1 2 ] this action educational opportunities differing from those offered to and afforded white senior high school pupils of Arlington County, solely on ac count of their race and color: or, in the alternative, this Court issue a permanent injunction restraining the defendents, and each of them from denying Plaintiff and those on whose behalf she sues ad mission to and enrollment in the Washington-Lee High School. 3. Plaintiff further prays that this Court will allow her costs herein and for such other and further relief as may to the Court seem just and proper in the pre mises. ft ft ft ft ft PETITION FOR INTERVENTION (R. pp. 1272 1275) 1. Petitioners, Julius Brevard and Peggy Council, both infants, suing herein through their respective par ents and next friends, Julius Brevard and William Council, say they reside respectfully at 2900 20th Street South Arlington, Virginia and 3458 22nd Street South Arlington, Virginia; that they are Negroes, de scendants of the African race; that they are citizens and residents of the State of Virginia and of the United States; that they are registered and enrolled students of the Hoffman-Boston High School of Ar lington, Viringia; that they are members of the class on whose behalf the original claimant filed this suit; that they are entitled to the benefit of any decree or order passed herein; and that they are within the original jurisdiction of this court in this cause. [ 1 3 ] 2. That they adopt the original complaint in this cause, as amended, and all of the prior pleadings here in, as fully and completely as if herein copied again; that they waive all notices, summons and other formal requirements as to their participation in this cause; that they adopt and are bound by all prior proceed ings herein, including the taking of testimony, as fully and completely as if they had been original complaints; and that they join in the prayers of the original com plaint except as they may be modified by the additional prayers in this, their petition for intervention. 8. That they have a common interest with the orig inal complaint herein since the filing of the orginal complaint herein facts have occured which materially affect the rights of the intervenors and which should be brought to the attention of this court, as wall more fully hereinafter appear. 4. That on September 6, 1949 the Intervenor, Julius Brevard was accepted and enrolled as a duly accredited student in the Hoffman-Boston High School at Arling ton, Virginia, said school being one operated and main tained by the defendants for the education of Negro youth in Arlington County, Virginia; that the said In tervenor applied to and asked from the proper officials in charge of said school, being the agents of the de fendants herein, for instruction in a course known as “Auto-mechanics”; that said course is regularly given and announced as a course for credit in the Washington- Lee High School, a school maintained and operated by the defendants herein for the instruction of white youth in Arlington County, Virginia; that the Inter venor was informed, and believes, and therefore avers that no such course was available or given in the Hoff man-Boston School for Negroes; that he could not be [ 1 4 ] granted admission to such course in Washington-Lee High School inasmuch as that school could accept only white pupils, that no such course of instruction was available to him in Arlington County, Virginia, because he was a Negro; and that, by reason of such denial and refusal he has been and is being deprived of a right to an education of his own choice solely on account of his race and color, all in violation of the laws and Constitutions of the State of Virginia and of the United States. 5. That on September 6, 1949, the Intervenor, Peggy Council was accepted and enrolled as a duly accredited student in the Hoffman-Boston High School at Arlington, Virginia, said school being one operated and maintained by the defendants for the education of Negro youth in Arlington County, Virginia; that the Intervenor, on said day, applied to and asked from the proper officials in charge of said school, they being the agents of the defendants herein, for instruc tion in a course in “Latin”, for a course in Chemistry and for a course in “Shorthand Reporting”; that the courses in Latin and Chemistry were required courses for her further education in a School of Nursing, which she desires to attend in order to accomplish her aim and purpose in life, that of being a nurse; that she was advis ed by the agents of the defendants that there was no course in “Latin” offered in the Hoffman-Boston High School; although such course is now, and always has been offered regularly at the Washington-Lee High School, a school maintained and operated by the defend ants for the instruction and education of the white youth of Arlington County, Virginia; that she was advised that there was and would not be offered any course of instruction in Latin to her in Arlington County, Vir [ 1 5 ] ginia, during the current semester of the school year; that she could not attend the Latin classes in Wash ington-Lee High School, because of the fact that she is a Negro and said school is maintained solely for the instruction of white pupils; that she was informed that there was no class in Chemistry at Hoffman-Bos- ton High School for the current semester of the school year; that there is a class in Chemistry at Washington- Lee High School for the present and current semester of the school year; that she was informed, and be lieves, and therefore avers, that she could not attend said class in Chemistry at Washington-Lee High School because of the fact that she was a Negro and that she was a Negro and that said Washington-Lee High School was maintained and operated by the defendants for white youth only; and that she was further informed that she could not and would not receive instruction in Shorthand Reporting for the current school semester for the reason that there was no such course of instruc tion provided for in the curriculum of the Hoffman- Boston High School, although there was similar in struction then and now being given at Washington- Lee High School; that she, being a Negro, was not eligible for admission to such instruction at Washing ton-Lee High School, then and now being maintained and operated by the defendants herein solely for the education of white pupils of Arlington County, Vir ginia; and that she has been and is now being de prived of and denied the right to an equal education by the defendants herein solely because of her race and color, all in violation of the laws and Constitu tions of the State of Virginia and of the United States. W HEREFORE, THE PREMISES CONSIDERED, the Intervenors, and each of them, pray: [ 1 6 ] 1. That all of the prayers of the original complaint herein be granted. 2. That this, their petition in intervention, be con sidered as a part of the original complaint herein and be treated and considered as though filed at the same time and against the original parties defendant. 3. That the relief prayed for by the orignal com plainant, in entirety, be extended to the advantage and relief of these intervenors and all others similarly situated. 4. That the Court issue its declaratory judgment in this case, in favor of the Intervenors, Julius Brevard and Peggy Council, and all others similarly situated, to the same extent and within the same limitations, as it may issue in the case of the original complainant herein. 5. That the Court may order and decree that the defendants be required to furnish the said Intervenors, and each of them, the same and identical type of instruction prayed for, and offered to the white stu dents of Arlington County, Virginia, in Arlington County Virginia at Hoffman-Boston High School; and that, in the alternative, the Intervenors be enrolled and reg istered in the Washington-Lee High School in Arling ton County, Virginia for the courses desired and re quested by them and each of them for the current school year and semester thereof. 6. And for such other and further relief as may to the Court seem just and proper in the premises, includ ing all relief originally prayed for by the original complaint herein. # # # # [ 1 7 ] EXTRACTS FROM TESTIMONY ELEANOR TAYLOR D ir e c t E xam ination (R. p. 252) By Mr. R a n so m : Q. State your name and address. (R. p. 253) A. My name is Eleanor Taylor, ad dress 3425 South 22nd Street, Arlington. Q. That is Arlington, Virginia. A. Arlington, Virginia. Q. Are you the mother of Constance Carter? A. I am. Q. Who is the plaintiff in this case? A. Yes, I am. # # * * # Q. At the time that this suit was brought were you then a resident of Arlington County, Virginia? A. Yes, I was. Q. And still are? A. Yes. Q. Is your daughter in school at the present time? A. Not today. Q. I mean she is still attending school? A. Yes. .Q Where has she attended school, Mrs. Taylor? A. Before she was in Dunbar High School and then finished up the term in Hoffman-Boston. Q. Where is Dunbar High School? A. First and O Streets, Northwest, Washington. Q. Did she attend any other school in Washing ton? (R. p. 254) A. Francis Junior High School. [ 1 8 ] # # Q. Why did she go to Francis Junior High School in Washington and Dunbar High School in Washing ton rather than attend the high schools in Arlington? A. They have better facilities for you there. They don’t have a junior high school in Arlington that I know of. Q. Do you know whether or not she tried to get some courses at Hoffman-Boston which were not avail able to her? A. Yes, she did. She tried and didn’t get them. Q. And they were not avaiable in that school? A. Not available at that time. # # # # * Q. Pay no attention to that. Mrs. Taylor, during the time that your daughter was attending the schools in Washington were you billed for tuition for her? (R. p. 255) A. Yes, I was. Q. Have you paid any tuition for her? A. I paid tuition in ‘46 and ‘47 and one in ‘49. & # # & $ Q. This is a letter addresed to you by the Director of Finance of the Public Schools of the District of Co lumbia. Do you remember receiving such letter? A. Yes, I do. Q. In which it points out that on December 3, 1946, you paid $26.40 for your child’s tuition? A. That is right. Q. And on January 29, 1947, you paid $16.72? A. I did. Q. And that there was $38.59 paid by Arlington [ 1 9 ] County for her and subsequently $28.29? Is that cor rect? (R. p. 256) A. Yes. # # # # # Q. As of June of this year were you billed by the District for a balance of $106.00? A. That is right. Q. For tuition paid by you for the education of your child in Washington? Is that correct? A. Yes. # # # # * Q. Did your daughter attend Hoffman-Boston last year? A. Yes. t (R. p. 257) Q. And expects to attend this year? A. Yes. C ross E xam ination B y M r . D ouglas: Q. Mrs. Taylor, how old is your daughter now? A. Seventeen. # # # # # (R. p. 258) Q. Your daughter complained in her amended bill of complaint that she made application at the Hoffman-Boston High School in the fall of 1947, that is when school opened in the early autumn of 1947, for instruction in Spanish but that she was advised that that course was not offered. Where did you get the information on which you based that al legation? [ 2 0 ] A. That they didn’t have it? Q. Yes. A. They told me they didn’t have it. Q. Who told you? A, The principal of the school. Q. Mr. Sydnor? A. That is right. O. Who asked him about that course? A. I asked him. Q. And you are quite certain that he told you that that course was not being offered that year and would not be offered that year? A. He said that wasn’t offered. Q. Do you know, as a matter of fact, whether that course was given at the high school? A. At what high school? Q. At the Hoffman-Boston High School? A. I don’t think it was. (R. p. 259) Q. The complaint alleges that she was denied the opportunity to take a course known as Civics 3. Who requested that she be given a course known as Civics 3? A. Who gave her the request to ask for that sub ject? Is that what you said? Q. Who requested information as to that subject? A. I did. Q. Of whom did you request? A. I requested it all from the Principal of the school. Q. When you went there to make that request did anyone else go with you? A. Constance. Q. Who else? Didn’t your attorney, Mr. Ransom, go with you? A. Yes, I think Mr. Ransom did. It has been so long, I have to think. Q. You have plenty of time to think and we don t mean to crowd you. Isn’t it a fact that the conversa tion that was had with Mr. Sydnor was had by Mr. Ransom with Mr. Sydnor? A. Partly. Q. Are you sure that he did not make these re quests rather than you? A. No. Q. You made them yourself? A. Yes. (R. p. 260) Q. Do you know whether or not the Civics 3 was given that year in the high school? A. They said they didn’t have it, I don’t know whether it was given. She didn’t get it. Q. Did anyone tell you that that was an 11th grade subject and that your daughter wouldn’t be eligible to take it until the next to the last year of her high school course? A. I don’t remember anybody telling me that. # # # # # Q. What conversation took place on the occasion that we are talking about concerning a course in type writing? A. They didn’t have it. They had a few typewriters but no tables and — let me see what else. She just couldn’t get it then. (R. p. 261) Q. How do you know she couldn’t get it then? A. That is what he said. Q. Who said that? A. The principal. [ 2 2 ] Q. Who asked the Principal about the course in typewriting? A. She did. Q. You mean your daughter? A. Yes. Q. Who asked the Principal about the course in Civics? A. Well, Constance and I asked these questions together. We went to the school to get the information and we simply talked about it. * * * * * A. How did you happen to ask about her taking Civic 3? A. Because those were her desired subjects. » * * * * (R. p. 262) Q. What did you do after you left the Hoffman-Boston School on that occasion? A. What did I do? I went to Washington and Lee to see if we couldn’t get the courses there. Q. And what were you told there? A. I was told that he didn’t have any authortiy to admit colored students. Q. Where did your daughter then go to school in the next following school year? A. She went on to Dunbar. Q. Did she get the courses that she wanted at Dunbar? A. Yes, she did. Q. Did she take them? A. Yes, she did. * * * * * [ 2 3 ] (R. p. 263) A. No, I don’t think so. <* # X* # # ■ (R. p. 265) Q. And, as you think about this matter, you are certain in your recollection that Mr. Sydnor, the Principal of the Hoffman-Boston School, told you that these courses about which we have been talking were not being offered at the Hoffman-Boston School? Is that correct? (R. p, 266) A. He said she couldn’t get them right then. Q. Right then? A. Yes. Q. When did he say she could get them? A. He didn’t know. # # # # Q. Where did she attend the first half of last year? A. Dunbar High School. # # # # # (R. p. 268) J. RUPPERT PICOTT D ir e c t E xam ination B y M r . R o bin so n : Q. Will you state your name? A. J. Ruppert Picott. O. Where do you live, Mr. Picott? A. In Richmond, Virginia. Q. What is your age? A. Thirty-eight. [ 2 4 ] Q. What is your position? A. I am Executive Secretary of the Virginia Tea chers’ Association. Q. How long have you held that position, Mr. Picott? A. I have been there since 1943. Q. What is the nature of that organization? A. A professional organization of the 5,145 teachers in Virginia. Q. In what do your duties as Executive Secretary of that organization consist? A. We are primarily concerned with the teachers, white and colored, who work in the schools for colored children in the State and, of course, we are interested in better education for children and improved work ing conditions and, generally speaking, our program (R. p. 269) is based on the welfare of the child with particular emphasis on the improvement of the ed ucational opportunities for all children, white and negro. Q. What previous experience, if any, did you have in the field of education prior to the time that you be came Executive Secretary of that organization? A. I was a teacher in a rual high school in South Boston, I think, for a year. I was a principal of a school in the City of Newport News of 29 teachers, an ele mentary school, for about seven years. I taught in two colleges, one of which was Hampton Institute and 1 taught in a city high school. Q. And over what period of time and term of years did this experience to which you have just testi fied extend? A. A period of about fifteen years, I would say. Q. And what are your academic qualifications, Mr. Picott? [ 2 5 ] A. I have a college degree from Virginia Union University in Richmond. I have had courses in educa tion at Hampton Institute. I have a Master s Degree in eductional administration and supervision from Temple University in Philadelphia and I have done, I believe, a large part of the work at New York University to ward a Doctor s Degree in education. Q. Mr. Picott, did you have occasion to examine (R. p. 270) the Washington and Lee High School and the Hoffman-Boston High School in Arlington County, Virginia? A. Yes, I have had the opportunity of being at the Hoffman-Boston School on numerous occasions in the past four or five years. I was, however, at both of those schools, I believe, August 20th and 21st at any rate, the Saturday and Sunday of that weekend. Q. Of what year? A. Of this year, the past month. Q. Please state whether or not upon the latter oc casion you made a detail inspection of both the Hoff man-Boston and the Washington and Lee High Schools? A. Yes, I think we spent all day Saturday and a major portion of the day on Sunday morning or Sun day. Q. Mr. Picott, did you have occasion to make an examination of the facilities for instruction in art at the Washington and Lee High School? A. Yes, I did. Q. Will you state for the information of the Court what facilities you found at that high school for in struction in art? A. There seemed to be the proper tables for draw ing. * * * * * [2 6 ] (R. p. 271) A. I was very much impressed with the drawing boards which project from the side of the room. B y th e C o u r t : Q. Which school are you speaking of? A. The Washington and Lee School. There was no drawing facility at Hoffman-Boston School that I saw, certainly comparable to this. These drawing boards — I haven’t seen them at any other school. I thought they would add greatly to ability to draw because they swing out from the wall. It seemed to me, in addition, that the room was conducive — very frankly, there was one picture in the room to which I object stren uously because of its racial attitude which was shown but, other than that, it seems to me that the facilities were fairly adequate. B y M r . R o bin so n : Q. Please state whether or not the drawing boards (R. p. 272) or easels to which you have just referred in your testimony are those which are shown in Plain tiff’s Exhibit No. 40? A. Yes, that seems to be it. Q. Please state whether or not at the Washington and Lee High School instruction in art is offered in a separate classroom or in separate classrooms? By that I mean in specially equipped classrooms? A. It seems at least in this room there was special equipment for the offering of it so I should say yes. Q. Please state what, if any, facilities you saw at the Hoffman-Boston School for instruction in art? A. I saw none. I don’t recall any that could be said to be specially designed for that purpose. [ 2 7 ] Q. Please, Mr. Picott, state your opinion as to wheth er or not the facilities for instruction in art at the Washington and Lee High School are superior, in ferior or comparable to those of the Hoffman-Boston School? A. Unquestionably superior. I would say there was no other way to look at it. They were unquestionably superior. Q. Did you have an occasion to make an examina tion of athletic fields and playing areas, and that sort of thing, at the Hoffman-Boston and at the Washing ton and Lee High Schools? A. Yes. (R. p. 273) Q. Please state what athletic facilities and facilities for recreation you found at the Washing ton and Lee High School? A. They seemed to be very good. In front of the building you had this huge and, I would say, very fine athletic field with concrete stand, with a track around it and with other facilities, in addition, of course, to your indoor arrangements which you might have. All of these details are apportioned so they can be well used for the purpose, whereas at Hoffman-Boston I saw a field, not all level, certainly on August 20th it appeared as if it couldn’t be used at all because a large portion of the field is downhill to the ravine or the highway which is in the rear of the school, and I certainly saw no track around the school or any thing that would approach a comparison of the two. Q. Did you see any grandstand facilities over at Hoffman-Boston School? A, They weren’t there on August 20th. Q. Any artifical lighting facilities? A. Oh, no, of course not. [2 8 ] Q. Any football gridiron or baseball diamond? A. No. Q. Did you see any facilities at all at Hoffman- Boston School which, in your opinion, could be used for sports, for play and for recreation? (R. p. 274) A. I saw very little. Q. Did you have an occasion to make an examina tion of the auditorium at the Washington and Lee High School? A. Yes, I did. Q. Will you state for the information of the Court the situation at that school with reference to an aud itorium or with reference to one or more auditoriums? A. I think there was an adequate auditorium, the main auditorium, which has, as I understand i t ---- have been informed has a seating capacity of about 1157, say roughly about 1200 persons, with a stage facing it. These seats are fixed theatre auditorium type seats and I sat in one. They are comfortable. Immediately behind the movable partition, which is or can be used as a part of the auditorium, is the gymnasium floor. I would assmne that if you put chairs in the gymnasium and faced from the side you might easily seat 2,000 persons. There might be some difficulty but you might do it. Q. Please state whether or not there were any other seating facilities in the auditorium or gymna sium portion of the auditorium than the seats in the auditorium proper to which you have just testified? A. Well, there was a balcony which I think I have overlooksd. (R. p. 275) Q. Please state whether or not there were any seating facilities on the stage portion of the auditorium which you recall? [2 9 ] A. On the day I was there I don t believe I saw too many chairs. That was the portion I was speaking of — from the gym portion. Q. Did you observe any facilities in the auditor ium at the Washington and Lee High School for the showing or projection of moving pictures? A. Oh, yes. Washington and Lee auditorium seem ed to have been built some years ago at a time, I suspect, when all of these auditoriums were equipped with a moving picture booth and there seems to be one. I didn’t go up and examine it but it appears to be there. Q. Will you describe for the information of the Court the size and the set-up, as far as you can, of the stage or the gymuasium portion of the auditorium? A. Will I describe that? Q. Yes. A. Well, I don’t recall the feet involved but it seemed to be adequate as a playing floor for basket ball games. Q. Please state whether or not any basketball court was marked out on this particular portion of the floor? A. Yes, there was. (R. p. 276) Q. Now, Mr. Picott, did you have oc casion to make an examination of the auditorium at the Hoffman-Boston School? A. Yes. Q. Please state for the information of the Court what you saw and found there? A, The auditorium at the Hoffman-Boston School is one with some handicaps. There is a stage, small. There are seats, I think, something like 300 is the capacity, or thereabouts. They have folding chairs, not [3 0 ] the stationary type of seats. The objection I would have to it is that in the center, as I recal it, there are two piers that support the roof so that you have this support which would effectively, in my opinion, block it from being used for anything else but an auditorium and even there you would have some difficulty in looking around some of these supporting girders. Q. How does the size of the stage of the auditorium at Hoffman-Boston compare with the size of the stage or gymnasium portion of the main auditorium at Wash ington and Lee? A. Hardly any comparison. The Washington and Lee arrangement is obviously many times larger. # # # # # (R. p. 277) A. The Hoffman-Boston stage is much smaller, certainly not one-tenth as large. Q. Is it large enough to permit the playing of basketball games? A. No. Is the Hoffman-Boston School stage large enough, you mean? Q. Yes. A. The answer is no. Q. Is it large enough to permit the playing of any games, that is group games, of course? A. No. You might put a table up and have a game of pin-pong, or something of that sort, but not a group Same. Q. How did the facilities and appointments and equipment within the Hoffnam-Boston School com pare generally with those in the main auditorium at Washington and Lee School? (R. p. 278) A. Oh, from the standpoint of com- [ 3 1 ] pleteness, of cheerfulness, of attractiveness, of general all-round wholesome attitude that might serve as a motivation, there is no comparision. Obviously, the Washington and Lee auditorium was designed for the purpose, whereas when you look at it from that view point it appeared as if the Hoffman-Boston is a mix ture — when you look at it from that viewpoint. Q. Please state your opinion as to whether or not the auditorium facilities accorded the white pupils at the Washington and Lee School are superior, inferior or comparable to those which are accorded negro pupils at the Hoffman-Boston School? A. Superior. Q. How many auditoriums did you find at Hoff- man-Boston? A. I recall seeing in the main auditorium---- Q. Hoffman-Boston? A. I beg your pardon — just one. Q. How many auditoriums do you recall examin ing at Washington and Lee High School? A. At least two, maybe more. One auditorium is used for band practice — appeared to be. Q. Please state whether or not the auditorium which you have just mentioned is the same auditorium which previously has been referred to as the main auditorium concerning which you previously testified? (R. p. 279) A. It is not. The two are different. Q. Will you describe, for the information of the - Court, the set-up and the facilities and the equipment in the band or music auditorium? A. There is a stage on which, on August 20th, I believe, there were music stands at least and then there were chairs — I would surmise a hundred, I think — in the room so that you have a small audi [ 3 2 ] torium which might be used as a multi-purpose room for band practice and things of that nature. Q. Please state whether or not the auditorium con cerning which you have just testified is that portray ed in Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 72? A. Yes. This is it, No. 72. Q. Mr. Picott, how does the size of the auditorium shown in Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 72 compare with the single auditorium at the Hoffman-Boston Pligh School? A. I would say the Hoffman-Boston High School is slightly larger, not too much. The one advantage of this even small second auditorium or second audi torium is that you have your view which is not ob structed by any supports in the center of the room. Q. Did you discern any auditorium for the band or for instruction in music, if any, at the Hoffman- Boston High School? (R. p. 280) A. No. I saw a room which at one time was the Principal’s office. It appears as if they have pushed him out and now that is being used for a music room. Whether for a band, I don’t know. Q. Did the room which you have previously men tioned have a stage? A. No. M r . D ouglas: W h ich room? M r . R o bin so n : At the Hoffman-Boston that was pre viously used as a Principal’s room. A. No, it does not. It is a very small room. B y M r . R o bin so n : Q. Did you make an examination of the typewrit ing room at Washington and Lee High School? [ 3 3 ] A. I did. Q. Will you state for the information of the Court, what facilities and conveniences you found there? A. I found adding machines, a mimeoscope, I think, was there adequate tables for typing Q. Directing your attention, Mr. Picott, to Plain tiff’s Exhibit No. 31, will you state for the information of the Court what that is? A. That is the business office or Principal’s outer office. Q. At what school? (R. p. 281) A. Washington and Lee. Q. Will you describe the facilities in that room, please? A. It seems to be quite adequately equipped for the Principal’s office. I was intrigued with the device for immediately finding names, the register, which is quite handy when you want to find the names. It appears on examination that most of the students have their names recorded in the Kardex arrangement. Q. Does that appear in Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 31? A. Yes, it does. Q. In which portion? A. To the right of the picture viewed from the reader’s standpoint. Q. Did you make an examination of the business office at PIoffman-Boston High School? A. Yes, I did. The Principal appears to have a por tion of the librarian’s office or workroom. (). Did you see at the Hoffman-Boston School any facilities which were the same or substantially equal to the facilities in the business office at Washington and Lee Pligh School as shown in Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 31? [ 3 4 ] A. No, of course not, because, in the first place, there isn’t enough room. The Principal at Hoffman- Boston only has room enough for his chair and per haps a very small table and if the librarian is to get (R. p. 282) in this space, which I am sure isn’t three feet wide by ten, perhaps about, there is not space for this type of equipment. In addition, it didn’t seem to be there, certainly not all, as was evidenced by a visit to the Washington and Lee School. Q. Mr. Picott, did you obsrve the Principal’s office at Washington and Lee High School having any device or arrangement for communication between that office and the remaining rooms in that building? A. Yes. It appeared at the Washoington and Lee School the Principal has one of the more advanced types of intercommunication systems. He has a com plete dashboard in front of him with a chair in front and he can sit and just by pressing a button, can listen in, I would assume, and can speak with any one room or with all of the rooms in the entire in stitution at will. Q. Did you see any such device or system in stalled or in operation at the Hoffman-Boston High School? A. No. Q. Did you make an examination of the classroom or classrooms employed at Washington and Lee High School for instruction in bookkeeping? A. Yes, I looked at the bookkeeping room. Q. Will you describe the facilities which you found in that room? ( R. p. 283) A. There appeared to be s o m e a t least, a type of the newer chairs for typing or for desk work, with adding machines or several adding [ 3 5 ] machines, and other equipment such as typewriters which are needed in such rooms. Q. Did you examine to see whether or not at the Hoffman-Boston High School there is a room which is especially designed for instruction in bookkeeping? A. I saw no such room nor did I see any adding machines. Q. Did you see any other equipment at the Hoff man-Boston High School of the same type or sub stantially similar to the bookkeeping equipment em ployed at the Washington and Lee High School? A. I think the answer to that is no. Q. Did you examine the cafeteria facilities at the Washington and Lee High School? A. Yes. I was impressed on several counts. One I — certainly not unique but certainly helpful — the arrangement of entering the cafeteria from the hall which is on the right side of the building — the right end of the building, facing the building. I looked also for exits from the cafeteria. There were several and they seemed to provide easy space to get out. I took a look into the kitchen and it seemed to be amply arranged. The place is quite attractive. Apparently large enough to seat a number of the pupils at any one session or any one time. I would count the cafeteria at Washington and Lee School as being adequate as (R. p. 284) cafeterias go for the purpose. Q. Did you make an examination for cafeteria fa cilities at the Hoffman-Boston High School? A. Yes, I looked for that. Q. Did you find any facilities for cafeteria service or any caferteria whatsoever at the Hoffman-Boston High School? A. I found no cafeteria. [ 3 6 ] * # # * * Q. As to Hoffman-Boston School, I understood you to say there was not as ample equipment there as in Washington and Lee. Was there any equipment? A. No, I saw no room which had been set up aside apparently for the teaching of bookkeeping. (R. p. 285) Q. How about the machines? A. I saw no machines. I was there on August 20th which was summer and conceivably one or two might have been put away but I saw no machines while I was there, whereas there were machines available and on the desks and several adding machines when I was at the other school. Q. Will you state for the information of the Court what you observed as to classrooms in the Hoffman- Boston School and in the Washington and Lee High School, used for the education and instruction of sen ior high school pupils? A. I think a general statement might be made which could be supported certainly, I think, from the visit, that generally speaking, the facilities and equipment in the classrooms at the Washington and Lee School- all such things are, for the most part, superior to that found at the Hoffman-Boston School. It would ap pear — well, to begin with, the Washington and Lee School is a much more attractive place. There is no comparison when you look at the two schools from attractiveness. I almost think you could make that state ment without fear of contradiction, that there is no comparison between the two schools. It is true one is large and the other is small, but certainly they just aren’t two similar schools. In addition, it would ap pear that in special rooms such as Art and in book [ 3 7 ] keeping, and certainly in the rooms devoted to voca- (R. p. 286) tional studies, the equipment at the Washington and Lee School is superior to most of the schools in the entire State of Virginia, white or colored, and at the Hoffman-Boston School it either does not exist at all or else is only fair. Q. I should like to direct your attention to Plain tiff’s Exhibit No. 42 which is a photograph of a class room at the Washington and Lee High School. A. I have it. Q. Will you state whether or not you saw at tire Hoffman-Boston High School any classrooms com parable with the classroom which is shown in Plain tiff’s Exhibit No. 42 at at the Washington and Lee High School? A. No, I did not. This seems to be one of the larg er rooms which again might be used as a resource room, a multiple purpose room, and which in the ag gregate could easily seat many more persons than you would normally expect in a classroom. I would say seventy-five or one hundred persons might be seat ed here. This room could be used for teaching where you needed to have a larger group together than you would normally expect in regular classroom instruc tion. Q. Mr. Picott, will you express your opinion as to whether or not the classroom facilities for the in struction of senior high school pupils at the Wash ington and Lee High School are superior to the class room facilities offered at the Hoffman-Boston High (R. p. 287) School for the instruction of senior high school pupils there? A. Yes. When you count in the special facilities that seem to be available, the special multi-purpose [ 3 8 ] rooms, the special equipment, it seems to me the pen dulum swings heavier in favor — quite heavier in favor of the Washington and Lee School. Q. Did you make an examination of the corridors at the Washington and Lee High School and the Hoff man-Boston High School. A. Yes, I did. Q. Will you state for the information of the Court how these compared? A. One was not too clean. The Hoffman-Boston School seemed to be not too well kept in order and I think I should add that was prior to school, in fair ness, and also at the time the Washington and Lee corridors were being painted. Q. Was there any renovation at that time taking place in the Hoffman-Boston High School? A. No. I talked with the janitor, I belive it was, and I think they washed some of the walls but I saw no painting going on. Q. Mr. Picott, I should like to direct your attention to Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 43 which is a photograph of the distributive education room or office at Washington and Lee High School. (R. p. 288) A. I recall that, yes. Q. Did you make an examination of this room? A, Yes, I did. Q. Will you state for the information of the Court the purpose of this room? A. The State of Virginia, along with a number of other states, participates in a program which I think is rather widespread in America whereby a student may spend a portion of his time in the classroom and then he would have some actual work experience in the field. Your better high schools will have to [ 39 ] do that. They do in Virginia, both white and negro. For example, on the walls of this room at the Wash ington and Lee School there was a huge banner which said “Distributive Education,” and on the sidewall, that is the side facing the door, there were very good pictures of department store participation on the part of some of these pupils. One could very easily gather from the literature which was available that here was a room where teacher or teachers will work with children from the viewpoint of making a corelation between the school work and the actual work in the field so that when the pupil finished at Washington and Lee School he might, without difficulty, or cer tainly with greater facility, be able to make the transi tion from the school to work. (R. p. 289) Q. Did you make an examination of the HofFman-Roston High School to determine whether or not there were facilities there the same or substantially similar to those at Washington and Lee concerning which you have just testified? A. Yes, I looked particularly but I didn’t see it. Q. Did you find any facilities whatsoever at Hoff- man-Boston High School? A. I saw nothing that would indicate on that day that Hoffman-Boston had such a course. Q. Mr. Picott, did you have an occasion to examine the room which is shown in Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 36, a guidance room or office at Washington and Lee High School? A. Yes, I did. I would like to get that. May I look at the one you have to refresh my memory? Q. Did you have occasion to examine that, Mr. Picott? A. Yes, I did. [4 0 ] Q. Will you state for the information of the Court what facilities and equipment you found there? A. It appeared that there are two desks in the room. At the time there were a number of boxes on the desks and possibly one typewriter table with a telephone. It would appear that here a special person trained in guidance might use this facility to aid pupils from this office. In addition, there was a washstand. The part that impressed me about it was not the view of the office or the equipment of the office because I (It. p. 290) think that is not unusal; I was impressed that there was in this school a room set aside for the guidance instructor and that there was no such room at the Hoffman-Boston School. Q. At the Hoffman-Boston School were there any facilities whatsoever for the guidance of pupils? A. Well, of course, in education, I think, at least some people do, that every teacher is a teacher of guidance but over and above that, in the better schools we have special persons. By special persons I mean persons who have a Master's Degree in guidance who have pursued further work toward a doctorate in guid ance. Guidance is a special field and those persons might easily know more about the subject and be more helpful specifically to pupils than could the av erage teacher. They would obviously have more time because they would devote their full time to the sub ject and the Washington and Lee School seems to have at least a room for such a person. Q. Did you find any special facilities for guidance at Hoffman-Boston? A. I saw none. Q. Mr. Picott, did you have occasion to examine [ 41] the gymnasium at the Hoffman-Boston and at the Washington and Lee High Schools? A. I am not advised that the Hoffman-Boston has (R. p. 291) a gymnasium per se. There are at least two gymnasiums, a boys’ and a girls’ at the Washing ton and Lee High School. Both seemed, on the day we visited them, to be quite well equipped. I think you ought to say that the boys’ gymnasium — at least the rooms adjoining the gymnasium showed there were boys at Washington and Lee without a doubt, but other than that the wall marking, the facilities in cluding lockers seemed to be quite good for the pur pose. Q. At this point, let me ask you this question: How many gymnasiums did you see at Washington and Lee? A. I recall vividly two at least, two full gymnasiums. Q. Please state whether or not you have or will refer to one of these two as the boys’ gymnasium and the other as the girls' gymnasium? A. Yes, one used by boys and one by girls. Q. Will you state for the information of the Court the location of the girls’ gymnasium with reference to the auditorium at the Washington and Lee High School, the main auditorium? A. The girls’ gymnasium is approached facing the stage. To a person facing the stage of the auditorium, the girls’ gymnasium, I believe, is to the left, whereas the one for boys is the one immediately behind or on part of the stage. I believe I am correct in that, Q. With reference to the gymnasium which on the (R. p. 292) stage of the auditorium at Washington and Lee, will you state for the information of the C o u rt---- [4 2 ] A. Just a moment. I believe, upon thinking about it, I have them just in the opposite order from what they are. Q. Will you state now? A. Yes, I would like to say that after I think about it, because I saw certain portion of the curtain which was used, for example, as a dressing room, a part of it, the girls’ gymnasium appeared to be the gymnasium right behind a part of the platform or stage of the main auditorium, whereas the boys’ is to the left. I think I am correct on that now because I think I remember we had to walk through several passage ways and find keys to get through the boys’ portion. Q. What facilities or set-up did you find with respect to the gymnasium which you have identified as a girls’ gymnasium? A. There were shower rooms, toilet facilities, cer tainly a large enough play space marked off, adequately marked so that a girls’ basketball team might easily be held in that gymnasium. Q. What about a boys’ basketball gymnasium? A. I think it is probably standard for boys, and girls could use it with some revisions. Q. I should like to direct your attention to Plain tiff’s Exhibit No. 18. Please state whether or not that (R. p. 293) is the auditorium which you have re ferred to as the girls’ auditorium? A. Yes. Q. I mean the gymnasium which is referred to as the girls’ gymnasium? A. Yes. There is a standing basketball goal, yes. Q. Please state what the structure is on the right- hand side■ of that photograph? A. There is a piano. [ 4 3 ] Q. On the rigbthand side? A. That is a tier of seats possibly for a basketball game, for persons who might look on. Q. Please state whether or not you had occasion to examine to see whether or not there were any shower facilities adjoining the girls’ gymnasium? A. Yes, there were. Q. Will you examine Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 20 and state whether or not a portion of those facilities are shown in that photograph? A. Yes, this is the one. Q. Will you state for the information of the Court what other facilities you found adjoining the girls’ gym nasium? A. Well, you had your lavatory facilities, toilet (R. p. 294) facilities, in addition to the shower facili ties. I believe there was a room for dressing — lockers. Q. Please state whether or not the facilities which you last mentioned are those shown in Plaintiff’s Ex hibit No. 22? A. Yes, that is correct. There was a big locker room right off from the gymnasium. Q. Mr. Picott, did you see a team room adjacent to the girls’ gymnasium? A. Yes. Q. Is the room a portion of which is shown in Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 21? A. Yes. This is a room apparently where they had what they call still pracitice for football. The room had pictures of the football players in action and there was a blackboard on which, as I recall it, there were some designs for plays. So that there appeared to be a special room in the Washington and Lee School where the boys who play football might be versed [4 4 ] in that practice in the classroom in addition to what ever practice they get outside of the building itself. Q. Directing your attention to Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 28, please state whether or not that is the gym nasium at Washnigton and Lee High School which you have referred to as the boys’ gymnasium? A. Well, I don't seem to have 28 here. Yes, this (R. p. 295) seems to be the boys’ gymnasium. Q. Did you notice any facilities which were a part of or connected with that particular gymnasium? A. Yes, there seemed to be a shower room, ad equate lockers which extended down a portion of a room or a walkway, toilet facilities, and with a gym floor adequately marked, with basketball goals or the backstop for basketball. Q. Mr. Picott, please state whether or not the facil ities which are known as the boys’ gymnasium are in addition to those facilities which are a part of the gymnasium which you have previously referred to as the girls’ gymnasium? A. Yes, there are two of them. In other words, a girls’ and a boys’. Q. Please state whether or not the facilities of the girls’ gymnasium might be used for such atheltic con tests as basketball, boxing, wrestling, and that sort of th in g ---- boys’ teams as well as girl teams. A. It would appear so, yes. Q. Did von find any gymnasium at all at Hoffman- Boston School? A. I found no gymnasium per se. There is an au ditorium from which I suppose you might remove the folding chairs but even there, in my opinion, it is entirely impossible to play a game of basketball because of these uprights which support the roof and which [ 4 5 ] come down to the floor actually in the auditorium. (R. p. 296) For example, we had in this room cer tain supports to the ceiling or to the roof. You can see that they would effectively, if your space was limited, block any game of basketball or any such other activity of that sort. Q. Please state whether or not, in order to use the auditorium at Hoffman-Boston High School to any degree for such puposes, it would be necessary to make any physical improvement of any equipment therein before it could be used for such purposes? A. I should certainly think you would be at a terrific disadvantage for playing basketball or volley ball or any of these other games because of the sup ports, these upright supports. Q. What about the seats? A. The seats would have to be moved and I may remark on that, if I may, that this combination gym nasium-auditorium which is in some of our schools — in the minds of many persons who have had to do with education, they are certainly not a good solution to the problem. If it is used frequently for gymnasium purposes, then it is always dirty and sometimes filthy so that it cannot be effectively used for an auditorium. In other words, what I am saying is that in the minds of at least some persons who have to do with educa tion in our State, the combination of a gymnasium- auditorium is a serious mistake. I taught in one high (R. p. 297) school which had that in a city and we came to the conclusion that it was a great mistake. There is the added disadvantage of unattractiveness for an audi torium. You never can have the attractiveness or keep it so if it is used frequently as an auditorium, so that either you have a very poor combination auditorium- [ 4 6 ] gymnasium or you just use it for one or the other. In my judgment, it is never satisfactory and I have come to this conclusion after having taught in a high school where there was one for a period of five years. May I also say this? It is a solution that is some times used to save money but I think quite unsatis factory. Q. Please state whether or not, in you opinion, the gymnasium facilities at the Hoffman-Boston School are equal or unequal to those at the Washington and Lee High School? A. There is no comparison, the fact is, definitely not. In my judgment, there is no gymnasium at the Hoffman-Boston School. There is an auditorium which I suppose might be used for light calisthenics but, even so, they are handicapped, so in reality I find it difficult to see any comparison between the two. Q. Did you make an examination of the library at Washington and Lee High School? A. Yes, I did. I was impressed with that library at (R. p. 298) Washington and Lee. I have had an op portunity to visit some of our better colleges. The li brary there at Washington and Lee, from the stand point of the cost, from the standpoint of attractive ness, particuarly the portion which is the second por tion, the card file or section, is quite attractive. For example, the type of lights make it extremely nice from the standpoint of motivation. In my experience, the Washington and Lee — least part of the library, the second room would do credit to any of our small colleges. Q. Did you find any workroom or any office or some of the rooms adjacent to the library at the Wash ington and Lee High School? [4 7 ] A. Yes, there seemed to be adequate workrooms. B y M r . D ouglas: Q. The witness has used the word “motivation”. He used it once before and I don’t know what it means. A. In education, we think in terms of a child be ing helped because of his surroundings to actually study and to participate in the program. By motiva tion we mean sometimes an intangible thing, that is, in the attractiveness of the library. For example, when I was in the Washington and Lee library I sat down in one of the chairs because to me here was a place beautiful of itself. # # # # $ B y M r . R o bin so n : (R. p. 299) Q. Mr. Picott, did you make an ex amination of the library at the Hoffman-Boston School? A. Yes. (.). Will you describe, for the information of the Court, the equipment and the facilities and apoint- ments of that library. A. There were not so many books on the shelves but the major portion of the library is books and mag azines. I had no opportunity to look at the books and magazines except casually. The Hoffman-Boston li brary, compared to the Washington and Lee library — the Hoffman-Boston is a practical place, whereas the Washington and Lee library is a beatiful place, as well as practical. Q. Mr. Picott, please state your opinion as to wheth er or not the physical set-up and equipment of the [ 4 8 ] library of Hoffman-Boston High School makes that library equal to or leaves it unequal to the library at the Washington and Lee High School? A. I would say the Washington and Lee library is way head and shoulders over tire Hoffman-Boston library. If I were a student at the Hoffman-Boston School I would be willing any day to trade for the Washington and Lee library. B y th e C o u r t : (R. p, 300) Q. When you speak of the library, are you referring to the room or are you referring to the contents? A. I am referring to the room, to the chairs, to everything else except the books. I saw the books but I had no time to actually look at every book and put them down and see just which one was better. I am referring to everything in the library except the books. Q. You mean the facilities for the use of the books or the books themselves were of a practical character? A. No. I make no comment as to the books but the room itself was simply another room. There was nothing unusual about it. B y M r . R o bin so n : Q. At which school is that? A. At the Hoffman-Boston School. Q. Mr. Picott, did you have occasion to examine the facilities for instruction of music at the Washing ton and Lee and Hoffman-Boston High Schools, re- (R. p. 301) spectively. A. Yes. I would like to refresh my memory from [4 9 ] one of the pictures outside of the special music room. I recall this room. This is a classroom, I suppose the average size, although it might be slightly larger. There is a baby grand piano in the front which is needed, of course. There is a teacher’s desk; there are several paintings on the wall. There was one painting which I insist I will object to, but it is there. There were several paintings showing several nationalities. There appeared to be some sort of filing cabinet in the left- hand corner, looked at from the reader’s viewpoint. There was at least a podium or stand from which a director might place the sheet music and, of course, direct the band or orchestra. There were movable chairs. There was a little shelf for books. Q. Did you notice any facilities at Washington and Lee High School for storage of musical instru ments? A, Yes, I did. I recall seeing some, I think, in the passageway through this room. There is a little pass ageway through this room which is lined on either side by storage cabinets. I think I am correct on that. From the hallway you first enter into this passageway and then to the music room. That is my memory on it. Q. You have previously testified with reference to the music or band auditorium at the Washington and Lee High School. Please state whether or not you (R. p. 802) recall seeing any lockers or other facilities in that auditorium for the storage of musical instru ments? A. At Washington and Lee? Q. Washington and Lee band auditorium. A. There seemed to be adequate storage space. Q. Mr. Picott, did you examine the Hoffman-Bos- ton High School for the purposes of determining what, if [5 0 ] any, facilities for instruction in music were afforded there? A. I saw none. My understanding is, upon ask ing questions at the time, that the Principal's former office is now used as a music room. If so, you have a space which is not much larger than this jury box here, certainly not very much larger than this space here which of course, would be totally inadequate for the purpose. I don't recall seeing any storage space. Q. Please state whether or not the music room at the Hoffman-Boston, concerning which you have just testified, is the room which is shown in Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 11? A. Yes, this seems to be the music room or what I was told is the music room. Q. Will you state whether or not the facilities afforded at the Hoffman-Boston High School for the instruction of pupils there in music are equal or are unequal to those facilities which are afforded white pupils at the Washington and Lee High School for (R. p. 303) instruction in music? A. There is obviously no comparison. It isn’t al ways necessary, for example, to have a piano but it is nice to have a baby grand piano, whether it is in good or poor state of repair. It is very fine to have a space to store the instruments. All of that, I would say, undeniably would put Washington and Lee music room in the category of being superior to the Hoff man-Boston music room or so-called music room where none of these facilities were in evidence as of the day when I visited the room. # # # # # Q. Mr. Picott, did you have occasion to examine [ 5 1 ] the science laboratories at the Washington and Lee High School? A. Yes, I did. I would like to have a picture though to refresh my memory on it. Q. How many different science rooms did you see or examine at the Washington and Lee High School? A. My memory is that I looked at at least four. There may have been others. (R. p. 304) Q. Please state whether or not the science room that is shown in Plaintiff’s Exhibit Nos. 29 and 70 are two of the science rooms at the Wash ington and Lee High School which you examined. A. Yes. Q. Will you describe the facilities in these and any other science rooms which you examined at that school? A. No. 29 seems to be a room where allergy is taught. I would look at it from that standpoint because of the type of desk or table which is there; also because of the wall space and how it is used, the table at the front, so that it appears, for biology at least, this is fairly well equipped. Of course, it is difficult in August to say how it would look in September, but, at least, there appears to be the equipment necessary, as to Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 29 for this science room. As to No. 70, there again, there also appears to be a room which might be used for the teaching of science and which has equipment adequate, I would say. Q. Are you able to testify what particular science is taught in the laboratory which is Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 70? [ 5 2 ] A. I would say chemistry might be taught and physics. O. Did you see any science room or rooms equip ped for instruction in physics at the Washington and Lee High School? (R. p. 305) A. Yes, it would appear to be. Q. For instruction in general science at the Wash ington and Lee High School? A. Yes, I would say in Plaintiff’s Exhibit 7, that room might be used. You have got a demonstration table in the front portion of the room; you have got the movable ch a irs---- B y M r . D ou glas: (). Did you say No. 70? A. I was speaking in terms of No. 7. Let me look at 70 again. I suppose general science might be taught in No. 70. I think room No. 7 measures up more to it. Science rooms are interchangeable, at least to some extent. B y M r . R o bin so n : Q. My question was not whether or not general science might be taught in the science room which is shown in Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 70 but whether or not in the Washington and Lee High School you saw any room or lavatory which might be devoted to in struction in general science? A. Yes, I did see such room. Q. Did you make an examination of the science facilities at Hoffman-Boston High School? A. Yes, I did. Q. Will you state whether or not they are the (R. p. 306) facilities which are shown in Plaintiff’s Exhibit Nos. 6 and 7? [5 3 ] A. Yes. This appears to be the room in the Hoff- man-Boston School. Q. No. 7? A. No. 7 appears to be a room in the Hoffman- Boston School. Q. How many science rooms did you find in the Hoffman-Boston School? A. I am not too certain whether No. 6 and No. 7 is the same room, a different view, but I recall see ing one at least. There may have been others. Q. Did you see any equipment for instruction in science at Washington and Lee High School other than that shown in Plaintiff’s Exhibit Nos. 29 and 70? A. Yes, I recall seeing several rooms where ap parently science was taught. Q. Did you see any apparatus other than shown in these photographs at the Washington and Lee High School? A. Yes, I think so. Q. Will you describe, for the information of the Court, in a general way, what additional equipment or apparatus you observed at the Washington and Lee High School? A. I believe I recall seeing microscopes at least in one room, additional tables for experimentation, tea cher’s desk, etc. (R. p. 307) Q. Did you see any equipment of sub stantial character or apparatus of substantial character for instruction in science at the Hoffman-Boston High School other than that which is shown in Plaintiff’s Ex hibit Nos. 8 and 7? A. I think this covers it very well. Q. Did you see any microscopes at Hoffman-Bos ton High School? [5 4 ] A. I didn’t see any. I saw none, so I had no way of knowing whether they had any. Q. Please state whether or not, in your opinion, the facilities for instruction in science at the Hoffman- Boston High School are equal or unequal to the facili ties for instruction of science in the Washington and Lee High School? A. At the Washington and Lee High School there are facilities that are superior because of the number of rooms. That per se would not be a rea son for thinking they are superior, but there are enough rooms where you might have special at tention given to a particular subject in a particular room. I think the conclusion might easily be reached Q. In your professional opinion, Mr. Picott, is it better for the students in science to have a separate room devoted to the instruction of a particular type of science as, for example, a separate and specially equipped room for physics and another for chemistry and another for biology and another for general science, (R. p. 308) than it would be to have a single room or laboratory equipped in which different courses in science might attempted to be taught? A. The answer is obvious to that. You can cer tainly have a broader space and by broader space I mean more facilities and more equipment which would mean that you would have better opportunity to use more of this equipment and become acquainted with its use and your instruction might be helped if you had separate rooms. Obviously, you could do a better job if you had a room especially devoted to physics than if you had all of the sciences, chemistry, physics, biology and general science in one room. Of course, [55] that assumes also that you would have teachers who might be likewise defined in their majors. Q. Mr. Pieott did you make an examination of the teacher’s lounges at the Washington and Lee High School? A. Yes. I was impressed with their abundance and with their decorations. I think there might be some question as to whether they are large enough but, if I know teaching correctly, they are large enough for the time that teachers would have to use a lounge room, which isn’t too often. Q. About how many lounges for teachers did you see at the Washington and Lee High School? A. I don’t know if I can accurately count up but I recall seeing a lounge for men and for women, I would say, on each floor there are three floors. 1 am (R. p. 309) not too sure about that. Q. Will you describe for the information of the Court the equipment and the conveniences and the appointments which you saw in the teachers’ lounges at Washington and Lee High School? A. I recall in one lounge for the men there was the usual lavatory facility. There were chairs bound with new plastic material or they might have been real leather. I would suppose they were the ordinary plastic bound sofas and lounge chairs. There was a table. I recall vividly on the second floor, facing the building to the right rear, there was quite an impres sive woman’s lounge. I say impressive because I thought it was equipped fairly well for the purpose, that is with the usual table, possibly as many lounge chairs and one large lounge and many other smaller chairs, with a wash basin. Q. Any lavatory facilities? A. And lavatory facilities. Q. What, if anything, did you find at the Hoff- man-Boston High Schoool in the way of a teachers’ lounge or lounges? A. There is a section off from the platform of the auditorium which I understand had marked on it, if I remember correctly, a lounge. (R. p. 310) Q. Please state whether or not this is the portion of the Hoffman-Boston High School which is shown in Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 9? A. Yes, it is called a teachers’ lounge. At the time we visited it, there was a washstand, there were two tables, one turned on top of the other one; there were no lounge chairs, no appointments certainly that were recommended as a lounge. I don t know whether it was a lounge for women or men. I recall seeing stored in the corner some mats for tumbling and, generally speaking, it was certainly not impressive of being con ducive to rest that a lounge, I suppose, is designed to afford. Q. How did it compare in size with the lounges found at the Washington and Lee High School for teachers? A. Generally speaking, the Washington and Lee lounges are rectangular, if I recall, whereas this space, taking out the space taken up by the steps, is al most a square. The Washington and Lee lounges are larger. Q. Did you find any equipment in the so-called teachers’ lounge at the Hoffman-Boston High School of the same or similar character as the equipment found in the teachers’ lounges at the Washington and Lee High School? A. I am glad you said "so-called because if it [5 7 ] hadn’t been labeled “Teachers’ Lounge”, I should not have known that it was a teachers’ lounge, where as obviously one, upon entering the teachers’ lounge (R. p. 311) in the Washington and Lee School, would know that this is a teachers’ lounge and I think that is as it should be. Washington and Lee has the proper type of lounge, maybe not enough of them, and this word “so-called” is the word that applies to it. Q. Did you see any equipment in the lounge of the Hoffman-Boston which was the same or substan- iallv similar in character to any of the equipment which you found at Washington and Lee? A. No. Q. Did you make an examination of facilities for instruction in typewriting at the Washington and Lee High School? A. Yes. I went in the room for typing. Q. Will you describe the facilities which you ob served at the Washington and Lee High School? A. May I have the pictures on that? Well, the basic difference that I saw in the two rooms, aside from their size, and the preponderance of typewriters in the Washington and Lee room, was the mimeograph ma chine which was very much in sight in Washington and Lee and which, to my way of thinking, is a good ad dition to the teaching of commercial subjects or to a commercial course. I do not recall seeing a mimeo graph machine in the Hoffman.-Boston School. I wouldn’t want to say there wasn’t one in the room designed for that purpose but I don’t recall seeing it. (R. p. 312) Q. How many rooms at Washington and Lee are devoted to instruction in typewriting? A. I remember seeing two, I think. [ 5 8 ] Q. How was the equipment in these two rooms so devoted to instruction in typewriting? A. Both rooms were quite filled with typewriters. In almost all available space in both rooms you found typewriters. Q. Did you have an occasion to examine the facili ties for instruction in typewriting at the Hoffman- Bos ton High School? A. Yes, I did. If I counted them correctly, there were nine. I think the figures are immaterial. I count ed the typewriters but, at least, they were all stored on the desks on one side of the room. Q. Nine typewriters, did you say? A. I would say that. I wouldn’t want to be too certain of the number. I remember counting them for my own purposes. Q. How many rooms are devoted to instruction in typewriting at Hoffman-Boston? A. It really appears that a portion of one room is. Q. Did you notice any charts and other instruc tional aids present in the typewriting classroom at Washington and Lee? A. Yes. There was the Royal typewriter chart, Underwood typewriter chart and the Underwood type writer firm seems to have designed a chart which was (R. p. 313) hanging from the wall. I didn’t see any charts at the Hoffman-Boston School. It might be that those charts are available but they weren’t there on the day I made the visit. Q. Please state your opinion as to whether or not the facilities for instruction in typewriting at the Hofi- man-Boston School are equal or unequal to the facili ties afforded for the instruction of typewriting in the Washington and Lee High School. [5 9 ] A. Here is the type of thing that I think one ought to pay attention to: Certainly good posture is essential in the teaching of typing. In most of the chairs and most of the seating arrangements at the Washing ton and Lee School I found what is considered by many to be the proper type of chair, whereas, on the contrary, at Hoffman-Boston some of the chairs were the simple type of folding chair, which it seems had been borrowed from the auditorium and I presume, when the auditorium is in use, must immediately be carried back to the auditorium. Items of that sort, it seemed to me, need attention. Q. Did you make an examination of the Washing ton and Lee High School with reference to site, grounds, and architectural construction of the buildings which compose that school unit? A. Yes. (R. p. 314) Q. Will you describe for the informa tion of the Court what you observed in that connec tion? A. I should say that certainly as compared — and I emphasize “as compared” — to Hoffman-Boston, the Washington and Lee School is a beautiful place. I have seen many schools that are much more beauti ful, if you want to make the comparison, in other states, but in my opinion the Washington and Lee School outside of one other high school in Virginia, the one located in Winchester is about as beautiful as any other school in the State of Virginia. That is a matter of opinion, and I am referring, of course, to the white high schools. Obviously, there is no com parison of the two when you look at the Hoffman- Boston High School. Again, I think that the Hoffman-Boston School wasO ? [6 0 ] designed on the old pragmatic theory that what you put up you insist be useful and that ornaments are entirely out of the question. Q. Do ornaments in any wise affect the instruc tional value of the school? A. I would say they add to the the morale of the school as far as beauty goes. I would say yes; it might be a question as to how much. I always notice, how ever, that the better high schools all over our State of Virginia are, particularly those for at least one group of people, always ornamental. I have come therefore to the inescapable conclusion that if you wish the (R. p. 315) community to have pride in the school, then the school, in order to be the community type of school, to afford the type of spirit, esprit de corps that we want, should have some decoration. I think it adds to the school. Again, there may be persons who feel that all you need is a teacher on one end of a log and a pupil on the other end, but most people in education have long ago decried that pernicious consent and now look upon the school as being first of all, useful, but also beautiful. Q. Would you express an opinion as to the com parison of these two schools in those respects, that is, whether Hoffman-Boston is equal to or unequal to the Washington and Lee High School in those respects? A. It is difficult for me and I should think it would be difficult for any person in education or out of ed ucation to honestly look at the two buildings and not choose the Washington and Lee building. # # # & # (R. p. 316) Q. Mr. Pieott, did you have occasion [ 6 1 ] to examine the industrial arts facilities at Hoffman- (R. p. 317) Boston High School? A. Yes, I did. We were there on Sunday morning because we couldn’t get in on Saturday. Q. How many industrial shops or vocational shops did you see at the Hoffman-Boston High School? A. There was one room. I would suppose you could call that the shop. Q. Please state whether or not the facilities which you have just made reference to are those which are shown in Plaintiff’s Exhibits Nos. 67 and 68? A. That is correct. Q. How many vocational shops did you see at the Washington and Lee High School? A. In this regard or category, Washington and Lee obviously has one of the finest set-ups of any high school — I would say it compares favorably with any high school in America, that is, those east of the Miss issippi that I have had contact with. It has an adequate building, easily divided into a half dozen or more rather complete shops. B y th e C o u r t : Q. Is it a building separate from the high school? A. Yes, a separate building which apparently has been erected at some cost and the equipment seems to be the best type available. B y M r . R o bin so n : (R. p. 318) Q. I should like to direct your atten tion to Plaintiff’s Exhibits Nos. 53 and 54, being photo graphs of the industrial arts shop in the Washington and Lee High School. A. Yes. [ 62] Q. Did you examine that shop? A. Yes, I did. I spent some time there. Q. Would you express an opinion as to whether or not the single shop which is found at the Hoff- man-Boston High School is equal to or is unequal to the industrial arts shop alone at the Washington and Lee High School? A. I should think this one room, one shop alone, at the Washington and Lee School is superior defi nitely to the entire shop at Hoffman-Boston. Here are my reasons. This one shop seems to have more equipment. The arrangement of the equipment in the Hoffman-Boston School — you have got some brick laying over here in the corner which apparently was left in June, not in the best of condition or order, and you have got another something over here. There didn’t seem to be any semblance of a type of orderly arrangement that you have in the shop at Washington and Lee. It would appear to me definitely that this one shop might have merit and would be rated above the shop at Hoffman-Boston. I am not saying any thing at all about the numerous other shops at Wash ington and Lee. Q. In addition to the industrial arts shop, please (ft. p. 319) state whether or not you examined the automobile mechinics shop at the Washington and Lee School which is shown in Plaintiff’s Exhibits Nos. 51 and 52? A. Yes, I did. I was impressed with several things. Here you have got a 1949 Pontiac in cream color facing the door. Q. For what purpose? A. This is one of these dual cars. In the State of Virginia we have rightly gone on record to do some [ 6 3 ] thing about the terrific toll of accidents that we have and so many schools now are teaching youngsters how to drive cars, and, in my humble opinion, it is a fine move. It is under our Department of Physical Education — safety. I immediately wondered did the Hoffman-Boston have any 1949 Pontiac car of similar type. I did not find that. In addition, it appears that this shop is quite well equipped for the purpose. For example, there are several engines which would seem to be in sight on which I assume the students worked at times to get practice. Of course, space would not permit that in the shop at Hoffman-Boston, to say nothing of other considerations. Q. Did you see anything in the vicinity of the automobile mechanics’ shop at Washington and Lee which was an aeroplane? A. Yes, I saw the body parts of a former plane (R. p. 320) minus the wings. I believe that is what it was, which was at one time an aeroplane, yes. Q. Did you see anything at all at Hoffman-Boston High School which would afford facilities for instruc tion there of a course or courses in automobile me chanics? A. No, not in automobile mechanics. Q. Mr. Picott, I should like to direct your atten tion to Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 55 which is a photograph of the mechanical drawing room. Did you make an examination of the mechanical drawing room at Wash ington and Lee High School? A. Yes. The room is filled with tables suitable for drawing, with drawers on one side—the type desk which has leg space on one half of the desk or a similar portion of that desk and on the righthand side, that is the righthand side of the person facing the desk. [ 6 4 ] who is sitting at the desk, there are several drawers. The top is flat. The type of chair or seat is the school type which is generally found in the mechanical arts rooms. There was a library, certainly a small book case. The lighting seemed to be excellent, at least, it seemed to be adequate for the purpose. We turned on the lights and it looked to me, and all in all I would say, with a good teacher, this mechanical drawing division would stand up with the other parts of the shop. Q. Did you see any facilities whatsoever for in struction in mechanical drawing at the Hoffman- Bos ton High School? (R. p. 321) A. I recall none. Q. Mr. Picott, I should like to direct your atten tion to Plaintiff’s Exhibits Nos. 56 and 57, the photo graphs of the machine shop. A. Just a moment please. Q. At the Washington and Lee High School. Did you make an examination of this shop? A. Yes. This shop seems to have quite an abund ance of machinery. It would appear that here is a place where a sizeable — in quotation marks — chunk of money has been spent to equip the shop and I again think rightly so. There appear to be numerous types of machines, heavy and light in addition to the Link trainer which was in the rear part of the room which is used for, I suppose, if it is used at all, training in aviation or pre-aviation courses. I was very much impressed also with the fact that you have got some desks right in the shop. This is one of the larger rooms. Q. Did you see any facilities whatsoever at the Hoffman-Boston School which in any way were sim [ 6 5 ] ilar or comparable to the facilities in the machine shop in the Washington and Lee High School? A. Oh, no. There was no comparison. Q. Was there any machine shop or anything re motely resembling a machine shop at all at the Hoff- (R. p, 823) man-Boston High School? A. It is possible that several of these lathes in this one room alone cost almost as much as the entire equipment in the Hoffman-Boston shop. Q. Is your answer to my question “no”? A. No. Q. Mr. Picott, directing your attention to Plain tiff’s Exhibit No. 58, which is a photograph of the sheet metal shop of the Washington and Lee High School, did you make an examination of this room? A. Yes, I did. Q. Will you say for the information of the Court the equipment and appointments which you found present in that room? A. There was evidence, for example, of tables suit able for sheet metal work, and in the roof part of the room there was some actual sheet metal work that I presume had been done by the pupils or cer tainly there were examples of the proper type of sheet metal work which should be done. There was an office, I would say, for the instructor and the part that impressed me was that I saw no sheet metal work at all, if my memory is correct, in the Hoffman- Boston School. Q. Did you see any facilities at all in Hoffman- Boston for the instruction there of courses or a course in sheet metal work? (R. p. 323) A. There wasn’t any evidence on the day I was there. [ 66 ] Q. Mr. Picott, directing your attention to Plain tiff’s Exhibits Nos. 59 and 60, being photographs of the woodworking shop at Washington and Lee High School did you make an examination of that shop? A. Yes. Here is obviously a very well equipped shop. For example, the equipment extends to the por tion on the rear of the building which carries away all of the waste or sawdust outside of the building so that in most of the machines you don’t need to sweep it up, but in most of them the sawdust is automatic ally carried out of the room. Q. Are they the ducts which are shown in the photographs? A. Yes. A good bit of money has been spent on ducts runn in g to many machines or most of the machines, so there was no need to sweep up even the sawdust that would accrue from cutting a piece of board. We saw some samples of some of the work. Q. Can you refer to the photographs and point out such examples which you have just mentioned? A. Yes, there was a cabinet which was in evidence which is on Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 59. Q. On which side? A. On the righthand side from the reader’s view. (R. p. 324) (). In what position is it shown to be? A. It is flat with the doors or glass portion facing upward. It could very well be used for book storage and I thought it was certainly a fair example of good teaching, if that is a sample of the work. If I recall also we saw doors, complete doors. Q. Can you refer to either of the two photographs and to such an example? A. Yes. In Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 60 there is to the right center an example of a door which I took [ 67 ] up and looked at from all sides and this door was made in the shop. It is more or less a very good pro fessional job so that it appears that not only the facilities are adequate but here you have got a shop that does fairly good work. Q. Did you see any facilities of the Hoffman-Bos- ton High School the same or substantially similar to the facilities contained in the woodworking shop at Washington and Lee High School? A. Definitely, no. The woodworking shop — the answer is no. Q. Please state v/ether or not, in your opinion, the industrial arts shop at Hoffman-Boston High School is equal to or unequal to the woodworking shop at Washington and Lee High School? A. I would say unequal. (R. p. 325) Q. Calling your attention, Mr. Picott, to Plaintiff’s Exhibit Nos. 61 and 62, being photo graphs of the printing shop at the Washington and Lee High School, did you make an examination of this printing shop? A. Yes. There was in evidence a sample of the work that was done there. This print shop seems to have a galley for type, they have one or two short run machines for practice, tables, a display of the different type of type, that is actual lead type that is used, Gothic or Roman, etc. I would say that this shop certainly could give a person the beginning of work ing in a print shop so he could secure a job and fit in rather well as an apprentice in a regular business. Q. Did you have an occasion to examine the Hoff man-Boston High School to determine whether or not it had any printing shop or any facilities whatsoever for instruction in printing there? [ 68] A. I saw none whatsoever. Q. Mr. Picott, would you express your opinion as to whether or not the equipment for instruction in vo cational subjects at Hoffman-Boston High School is equal to or unequal to the equipment and the facilities afforded for the instruction of vocational subjects at the Washington and Lee High School? A. There is no basis, as I see it, or certainly very (R. p. 326) little for comparison — Washington and Lee School is so superior. Q. Both with respect to physical plant and set up, facilities and equipment? A. I would say yes. Q. Would you express your opinion, Mr. Picott, as to whether or not the facilities and equipment and the appointments and conveniences for academic in struction at the Hoffman-Boston High School are equal to or unequal to those afforded for the academic in struction of pupils at the Washington and Lee High School? A. There is, of course, a difference in the size of buildings which must he taken into consideration, so that you have more rooms at the Washington and Lee than you have obviously at Hoffman-Boston, but, outside of that, the equipment and the facilities for academic training at the Washington and Lee School seem to me to be definitely superior. Q. In your previous testimony, Mr. Picott, you made reference to a certain painting or picture in the art classroom at Washingto nand Lee High School. Will you give the Court the benefit of your explana tion in regard to that? A. Yes. I suppose I had no reason to be riled but I wish the picture hadn’t been there. [ 6 9 ] Q. Which room was it in? A. It was in the art room, I belive. You have pic- (R. p. 327) tures of four or five nationalities and here I suspect the teacher has taken for her pupils samples of the best that these nationalities have as a part of their racial culture and background. For example, in the Spanish, you have the Spanish dancer which is in herently a part of the great Spanish tradition. Like wise, in the Chinese there was something which praised the Chinese and which I would assume would tell the generation of white boys and girls who might, attend Washington and Lee that the Chinese are a great people and here is something to tell you they are great, but right in the center was this picture of the race of which I happen to belong, and a picture which I hope is not indicative of the thinking, of that teacher nor the school. I was ashamed of it. Here was a picture of a number of persons of my r a c e ---- and I suppose the teacher wanted it to be typical, although I despise such an assertion — here was a picture of two persons who were shooting, as we call it, craps, in quotation marks. If that is indicative of the desire on the part, either of that teacher or of the school itself, to promote racial good feeling and to teach white boys that the negro race has something in it besides those certain conditions, then I think you have a very poor way of demonstrating it. Certainly I would have felt much better about the whole thing if I hadn’t seen that picture. If they want to keep the Chinese, fine, or Japanese or even any other group, (K. p. 328) fine. I would like to see that picture come down because it would do something to every white boy and girl who attends that school. # * # * # [ 70 ] (R , p. 329) B y the C o urt : Q. In the Hoffman-Boston School is the shop in a separate building? A. Yes, sir, the shop is in a separate building in the rear of the main building. In one part of the room, right on the ground there is a hallway between the building. One part is the home economics department and the other part is the shop. Q. One room? A. Well, it is two rooms actually. . Q. I mean for the shop. A. One room in the shop. Q. Is it a one-story building? A. One-story building which was built afterwards so that you have got about two good classrooms, one used for the shop, maybe slightly larger, and the other used for a home economics unit. Q. The shop is devoted to what type of industrial arts — that one-room shop? A. They try to do several things there. I would say certainly bricklaying was in evidence and I v/ould say they likewise teach some general shop. Q. What do you call general shop? (R. p. 330) A. It would be an indication — for example, they had some woodwork, more of the toy nature than anything substantial. There was some little device for holding a vase on a wall which would be wood-working but quite of an amateurish nature. There was also bricklaying and possibly some — I doubt if there was much else. Q. And automobile mechanics? A. No automobile mechanics. Q. What type of tools were in that room? [ 71] A. There were some tools which were locked up which could be seen, tools like wrenches, hammers, etc. Q. Any carpenter tools? A. Yes, some carpenter tools. Q. Any bricklaying tools? A. I don’t remember seeing some but they must have had because they had bricklaying and some bricks were in evidence on the concrete floor where the in structor had been teaching the boys how to lay bricks and make a comer, so apparently they do have brick laying. # # # * # (R. p. 337) C ross E xam ination B y M r . D ouglas: Q. Perhaps that was it. Let us leave that for a monment. Is there any demonstrable relation that necessarily follows between bigness and excellence of educational opportunity or instruction? A. You can find authority on both sides. At the moment I can't think of such authority. I could cer tainly produce it if requested in time. In Virginia, our State Board of Education has for a long time decided that the best school that you can have is what we call a comprehensive high school. That comprehensive high school would have about five or six hundred pupils. We feel in Virginia that (R. p. 338) a high school of about five or six hun- [7 2] dree! pupils will enable you without too high a cur rent operation cost and per capita cost to offer a broad curriculum. You would be able to have tea chers who might teach chemistry alone or physics alone. You would be able to employ a coach who has a major in physical education rather than some person who teaches business but has an interest in physical education. We feel definitely that a high school of fifty or one hundred is not the comprehen sive or the best type of school. So in the State of Virginia we are talking in terms now of the compre hensive school of about five hundred children. When you go over that number, obviously you may or may not have a continued good school. There is very de finitely a tendency on the part of some of our big schools — I have had a chance, for example, to talk some years ago to the Principal of one school in Brook lyn, New York, which had ten thousand high school students, on the question of whether that school is better because it is a large school or would you prefer to have a school of one thousand. That particular Principal in the field felt that he could offer more by having this big school but he insisted in talking in terms of trying to keep the personal contact that you might have and dividing the school into smaller units. I saw very definitely there are points on both sides for a good school. Smallness of itself may definitely (R. p. 839) be a handicap and yet bigness of itself may be a handicap. It depends on your school orga nization. It depends on the offering. Any number of factors must be considered before you could say yes or no. It is not the type of question to which I would want to say categoroically yes or no. # # # # # [ 7 3 ] (R. p. 340) (The question was read as follows: “In draw ing the comparison have you taken into consid eration the number of students who had to make use of the facilities that you have compared? Do you understand the question?”) A. Yes, I have, because I feel that one child should be given the opportunity, if he has the qualifications and desire, under the democratic theory, to have that course if he is eligible for it. * # # # w (R. p. 341) Q. If you accept as a fact that at the Hoffman-Boston High School all students of all grades are given regular required physical instruction as a part of their curriculum or courses and if you accept as a fact that at Washington and Lee High School there are so many students that only the 10th grade can have physical instruction, would that make any dif ference in your comparison of the facilities of the two schools? A. I would like to comment hurriedly on that, if I may. Q. How about answering the question yes or no and then comment? A. (R. p. 342) A. The answer would be no, for this reason: I saw no facilities at Hoffman-Boston for 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, or 12th grade children except out door facilities or slight calisthenics which could be offer ed in the auditorium, so that the children, especially on. rainy days — I would like to know what they do when it rains — whereas, regardless of the number of pupils which could use the facilities at Washington and Lee— [ 7 4 ] and I am certain they need more facilities — schools always do — there are at least some facilities like gym nasiums which can be used by some of the children whereas no gymnasium at all for any grade exists at Hoifman-Boston. That is the crux of my thinking. * * * * * ( R. p. 871) Q. I am asking you whether you know that Washington and Lee has equipment superior to that of Hoffman-Roston? I am not talking about the building or the architecture or the lawn; I am merely talking about the equipment that is contained in the science room. A. I would say it is superior because you have an extensive operation of four rooms with a class in each subject one year which you cannot have in a smaller school and therefore, because you have an op portunity, it is a superior operation all around, it seems to me. That is a matter of opinion, of course. Q. And because it has those four rooms and has a class going each year, instead of giving the science in rotation, you draw the conclusion that the facilities are superior? A. Yes, I think that is a sensible conclusion. * * * * * (R. p. 372) Q. So you wouldn’t think of main taining four separate rooms with four separate sets of equipment when there were only twenty-five stu dents in the group? A. I must come back to the one child. If there is only one in the democracy who is entitled to get the courses that he needs — and it is a question, it seems to me here, not of how many pupils you have but [ 7 5 ] a question of taking care of your pupils and if it is one negro boy, it seems to me it ought to be done. Q. Isn’t it a fact that one teacher teaching two related sciences, such as chemistry and biology, hav ing one room and one place to work, one demonsrta- tion table, can give better instruction than teachers who switch back and forth from one room to the other? A. In fact, just the opposite. We have become in America a nation of specialists and, definitely speak- (R. p. 373) ing the case is just the opposite. If you have got people who have specilialized in biology and who go to Woods Hole, Massachusetts, every year to study biology, naturally, they would be better per sons. I would much prefer to be taught by specialists. That isn’t always true. # # # # * (R. p. 374) Q. While you are on that subject of the spirit of the school, doesn’t a student in a small school benefit infinitely more in absorbing the spirit of the school than a student in a large school? A. That isn’t true. I don’t think you can get facts to show that, simply because you have a small school, you have a good school. You come back to that. It depends on the school. A small school can be a de finite handicap because it doesn’t have certain sports, for example, and the morale would be low. It de pends on the school. I certainly would feel that there is great virtue in being average, perhaps five hundred. There may or may not be virtue in being large but the answer is certainly is not a definite one, either yes or no. # # a # # [7 6 ] R e d ir ec t E xam ination (JR. p. 380) B y M r . R o bin so n : Q. It is necessary, Mr. Picott, to assemble, as a general rule, all of the pupils of a given high school, either in the auditorium of that school or in the gym nasium of that school, at one single time or at any single time? A. I can think of a few instances where you want all of your pupils together. There may be some. As a general rule, you probably divide your pupils per haps according to age levels or perhaps for various other reasons. Q. Considering the enrollment of Washington and Lee High School at somewhere between eighteen hun dred and nineteen hundred pupils, would you state your opinion as to whether or not the auditorium fa cilities and the gymnasium facilities at that school (R. p. 381) are adequate for the needs of the pupils and for the purposes for which those facilities are there maintained? A. It seems to me they are quite adequate. The auditorium will seat 1157 or 1127, approximately, which means that more than half of your pupils or there abouts, could be seated at one time and, when you put in the additional space, you might get most of them. Certainly, your gymnasium facilities, it would appear to me, if you had a stagger system, you could arrange to give physical education to all of your child ren provided the administration worked out the system properly at sometime during the week, because you could arrange such a stagger system for it. Q. Mr. Picott, please state whether or not it is [ 7 7 ] possible in the main auditorium at Washington and Lee High School to have one activity conducted in the auditorium and another activity conducted in the girls’ gymnasium which is, in fact, the stage of that auditorium, all at one time? A. Yes, sir. It appears so because you have folding doors which serve as a partition between the platform of the auditorium and the gymnasium portion and simply by means of closing those folding doors prop erly, it would be possible to have two activities go ing on at the same time, one in the auditorium and the other in your gymnasium section. (R. p. 382) Q. Please state whether or not at the same time it would also be possible to have, going on simultaneously, another activity in the music auditor ium of Washington and Lee High School? A. Yes. Q. Is it possible that there could be conducted at Hoffman-Boston High School more than a single ac tivity which would require the use or a need for au ditorium facilities? A. No, because there are no partitions or folding doors to separate any space in the Hoffman-Boston auditorium. Q. Referring again to Washington and Lee High School, would it also be possible to have conducted in the boys’ gymnasium an activity in addition to activities which might be simultaneously conducted also in the main auditorium in the girls’ gymnasium and in the music auditorium? A. I should think yes. # * # ** « (R. p. 383) Q. If it should be necessary to use the [7 8 ] auditorium or, as Mr. Douglas called it, the assembly room at Hoffman-Boston High School for study pur poses, would it be possible at any plase at Hoffman- Boston High School to conduct an activity at the same time which would require a need for auditorium facili ties? A. Very difficult. The only other space I could think of that you might use would be the library and then you wouldn’t have the library in use as a library, so the answer would probably be no. # # # # MARTIN D. JENKINS D ir e c t E xam ination (R . p. 384) B y M r . R a n so m : Q. Will you state your full name and title? A. Martin D. Jenkins. Q. And your address? A. Baltimore, Maryland. Q. Will you state to the Court your academic ac hievements and degrees and the schools from which you obtained degrees? A. I have a Bachelor of Science Degree from Ho ward University, Bachelor of Arts Degree from In diana State Teachers’ College, Master of Science De gree in Education from Northwestern University and a Ph. D. Degr ee. Q. That is Doctor of Philosophy? A. That is right, from Northwestern University. Q. Assuming that the Doctor of Philosophy was the last one, when did you receive that? [7 9 ] A. 1935. Q. In what field did you specialize for your ed ucation in these various schools? A. In the field of education after the first under graduate degree. (R. p. 385) Q. Have you had any teaching or ed ucational experience in actual practice? A. I have taught in a number of different colleges, first the Virginia State College. Q. What year? A. 1930 to 1932, then at North Carolina A. and T. College, 1935 to ’37, then Dean of Instruction at Cha ney 1937 and ’38, and I have taught at Howard Uni versity for ten years. Q. In all of those experiences were you engaged in the field of teaching education as a subject? A. Yes. Q. Have you had any experience, Dr. Jenkins, in investigating schools and making surveys of educa tional systems throughout the country? A. Well, a good part of my time during the last ten years has been in this type of activity. I am a mem ber of the Bureau of Educational Research at Howard University. In 1940 and ’41 I was senior specialist in higher ed ucation at the United States Office of Education, at which time I had an opportunity to make studies of negro schools in each of the seventeen southern states and the District of Columbia. I have also been a staff member of the study of public schools in Delaware which was done under the aus pices of the American Council on Education at the (R. p. 388) direction of the Legislature of the State of Delaware. [8 0 ] I was also a staff member of the survey staff for the study of public schools and colleges in the State of Maryland which was also done under the auspices of the American Council on Education. Q. Was that also under the direction of the General Assembly of Maryland? A. Paid for by the General Assembly of the State of Maryland. I have done a number of individual studies — studies of individual school systems in Char lotte, North Carolina, Little Rock, Arkansas, Baltimore, Maryland, and at various times in Washington, D. C., and the study here in Arlington. Q. The study in Arlington was done at the request and under the direction of counsel for the plaintiff in this case? Is that correct? A. That is right. Q. Have you any publications to your credit in the field of education? A. Well, I have written several monographs in the field of education and perhaps fifty different art icles appearing in the leading professional and ed ucational journals. Q. Are you listed in ‘'Who’s Who in America” as a leader in educational field, to your knowledge? (R. p. 387) A. Yes, I am. Q. Are you listed in any of the other so-called compendia of the leading educators, to your know ledge? A. Well, “Who's Who in America” of course covers the entire field of American life. I am listed also in Leaders in Education which is sort of who’s who of people in education and I am to be listed in the new volume being issued by Marcus & Company, the pub lishers of “Who’s Who in America”, in a volume en [ 8 1 ] titled “Who Knows and What’ in which they attempt to present biographical sketches of the experts in each field in the United States, such as metallurgy or ar cheology or education. I have the honor of being -in vited to be listed in that volume which is a forthcom ing publication. Q. One further question before I tender you to the Court. You stated that from the period of 1940 to 1941 you did study the negro schools in seventeen of the southern states under the auspices of the United States Office of Education? A. That is right. Q. You were a senior specialist in that? A. That is right. Q. That was your title? A. Yes. Q- Were you on loan from Howard University for that period? (R. p. 388) A. At that time. M r . R a n so m : I wish to tender Dr. Jenkins to my opposing counsel and to the Court as an expert, with the understanding that I will, of course, ask him to offer opinions based upon his own observation and upon his general field of knowledge. T he C o u r t : Any cross exam ination? M r . D ouglas: N o. T h e C o u r t : Let him be admitted. B y M r . R a n so m : Q Dr. Jenkins, at the request of counsel for the [ 8 2 ] plaintiff in this case, did you in 1947 make a study and an examination and a comparison of the Hoff- man-Boston High School and the Washington and Lee High School in Arlington County, Virginia? A. Yes, in late ’47 and early 1948. Q. And is that the report which you submitted to me on January 21st of 1948? A. Yes. # * # # # (R. p. 389) Q, Dr. Jenkins, since you completed your exmination and comparison of those two schools in late ’47 and made your report in ’48, have you had an opporunity to examine statistics and studies of the two schools in Arlington County which have been pre pared by Dr. Dawson, Howard A. Dawson, Director of Rural Service for the National Education Associa tion, which purports to bring that information up to date? Have you had an opportunity to examine that? A. I have seen the report by Dr. Dawson dated August 1949, and a supplementary appendix. Q. And did you see a copy of the statistics that were prepared for him or under his direction upon which his report is based? A. Yes, and largely incorporated in the memoran dum. # # # # # (R. p. 391) Q. Dr. Jenkins, in preparing your own report which you made on January 21, 1948, to what information did you have access? A. Well, I followed the usual procedure in studies of this kind, I had access to certain statistical data which was provided by the School officials such as en [ 8 3 ] rollment and curriculum and the like. I visited both of the schools concerned, Hoffman-Boston and Wash ington and Lee, and talked with the Principals, sup ervisors, teachers, — some teachers — superintendents, observed the equipment, observed some of the classes in both schools. Q. Did you observe the actual facilities at both schools, physical plant, the equipment that was used in the classrooms? A. I paid very careful attention to those items. Q. Did you also talk to the various teachers as (R. p. 392) to the method of instruction used in the two schools so as to make a comparison? A. To some extent. There was no attempt to in terview each teacher nor was any attempt made to explore with any individual teacher fully the question. Q. Did you discuss with the Principals or the pre siding officers at each of the schoools the types of courses and the names and numbers of courses offered and then discuss with them the method in which those courses were taught? A. Again, in a partial way. Q. What do you mean by “partial”? Will you ex plain that? A. There was no attempt, for example, in either school to go down course by course and ask what methods are used in teaching this course and what mehods are used in teaching this course. On the other hand, where at the Hoffman-Boston five or six grades are in one class, then an attempt was made to find out from both the Principal and the teacher how the work was accomplished. Q. For our benefit, will you tell us, first, so far as class structure is concerned of the two schools, [8 4 ] whether they are divided into different age groups or different educational levels or not? A. At the Hoffman-Boston School there is an ele mentary junior-senior high school organization and Washington and Lee is a junior-senior high schol, pre- (R. p. 393) dominantly a senior high school. At the time I studied the Hoffman-Boston School it was pre dominantly an elementary school in terms of the num ber of pupils enrolled. Q. As to the administration of that school, that is the immediate administration, is the Principal, I suppose you call him, the supervisor of the school, the officer in charge — does he have charge of both elementary, junior and senior high work? A. Yes. At the time I made this study he was res ponsible for three units. * * * * * (Ft. p. 394) Q. Just in order to make the record clear, how are these schools designated racially? What is Hoffman-Boston School? A. The Hoffman-Boston School is what is com monly known as a negro school. Q. Washington and Lee is what? A. Meaning that the Hoffman-Boston School only- takes children who are negroes. I won’t atempt to go into a definition of that. At Washington and Lee only those children who are known as white persons attend. * * * * * (R. p. 395) Q. During the period that you made this report, did you make an inquiry as to the number of students who are of either compellable or permiss- [ 85] able age in Arlington County who were attending schools outside of the County, either at their own expense or under some compensation system provid ed by the County? A. There was a plan at this time whereby many of the pupils who normally would have attended Hoffman-Boston were going to the Washington schools, Q. You mean the District of Columbia schools? A. The District of Columbia schools. *s # *> * * (R. p. 398) A. During ’46-’47 the Arlington School Board paid the tuition of twenty-one negro schoool pupils who were attending the senior high schools in Washington, D. C. Q. Dr. Jenkins, after having examined the stat istics that have been prepared by Dr. Dawson which puport to bring the facts up to date, that is since you made your report, have you found any appreciable- change in ratios as to attendance at either of these schools? A. Yes. Q. How did that change occur, assuming the stat istics are correct? (R. p. 397) A. Well, there are two interesting things. One is that enrollment of senior high school pupils at Hoffman-Boston School has greatly increas ed. The second is that there seems to be a general decrease in the school population among the negro population of Arlington. I don’t know whether negroes are leaving Arlington, or not. There is a slight or some increase in the white school population as a whole, including the elementary. [ 8 6 ] Q. Do you have any explanation for that, any con clusion as to why that has occurred? A. Not the latter. It is my understanding — I don’t think it is either of these reports, however, that the School Board no longer is paying the tuition of negro pupils who attend the Washington, D. C., schools and therefore, many of those pupils are now attend ing the Arlington School. That is a matter of hearsay, however. # # # # # (R. p. 398) Q. In the studies you have made in comparison with the figures that are brought up to date, that is by Dr. Dawson, assuming that a con clusion is reached by Dr. Dawson to the effect that there is more money spent per negro child for ed ucation in Arlington County than there is for the white child — and that includes the overall picture, capital outlay, actual tuition costs, library and every other facility that is provided — does that have any significance, the fact that more is spent on the negro child than on the white child? A. It has some significance but it is not crucial, I should say. It was not a crucial way of testing the hy pothesis, I say, that schools for whites and negroes are equal. Q. That is the question I want. Would that be proof that the negroes are getting superior education, because more money is spent for them? A. No. I would like to explain what I mean by that. It is common practice in American education in comparing school systems, to compute the per cap ita eductional cost and draw certain conclusions about the relative merits of school systems, which is an ac- [ 87] (R. p. 399) ceptable procedure where school popu lations are of comparable size. It is well known, how ever, that where there is a disparity, where there is disparity in the size of the populations being com pared, the per capita costs are almost or might al most be worthless and I am surprised to find that Dr. Dawson places so much confidence in that partic ular figure. If I might explain by an example how it might operate, the data here show — I don’t recall now but I could refer to this — that the per capita costs at Hoffman-Boston are considerably greater than those at Washington and Lee. I think the greatest differential is in custodial costs where it is computed that it costs $78.00 a pupil, or something of the sort, for the custodian at Hoffman-Boston and only a dollar or so at Washington and Lee, which might make an unsophisticated person think that the Hoffman-Boston pupil is getting seventy- eight times as much janitorial service. But back to the point, we might have a situation of this kind: Let us take a course that is not being offered, no claim that any part of it is being offered at Hoffman-Boston — print ing — but it is being offered at Washington and Lee. It is my understanding that if printing is available to a white child in this community it must also be available to a negro child and therefore the School Board must set up a complete unit of printing at Hoff man-Boston. Let us say that that is true. That may (R. p. 4.00) cost, to set up a printing shop, $20,000 in capital outlay — just a rough guess. You certainly would have to employ a printing teacher at about $3,000.00 a year. We would have to buy supplies, and so on. Let us hypothesize that we have one pupil taking that and then somebody comes along and com [8 8 ] putes the per capita cost that will run up in current expense to perhaps $4,000.00 per snnum, or we may compute the per capita cost in capital outlay for a particular year and it may run up to $20,000 per pupil where at the Washington and Lee School the comparable cost may be, let us say, $200.00 for cur rent operating expenses and $50.00 per pupil for captial outlay. Now, as I say, the naive person may look at those two figures — and I hope it is clear to the Court that this is just a hypothetical example — may look at these two figures and say, “With this great differential, $4,000.00 per pupil for current operating expenses in one school and only $50.00' in another, certainly these persons are being well treated”, but it does not take an educator nor a lawyer to see that that does not reveal at all the matter of equality. As a matter of fact, it may be that even under that cir cumstance the facilities offered the single pupil at Hoffman-Boston are not equal, and I might go on with examples of that kind. The conclusion is, in my opinion, that where there (Pi. p. 401) is — and I think this is a generalization which you might apply to any situation — that where there is a great disparity in the school population being compared, comparisons on a per capita basis, whether for expenditures or for use, are worthless. Q. Would that same conclusion be true for the expenditures that are made for teaching personnel? In other words, the fact that the amount per student that is used just for teachers, to pay the salaries of teachers — could that authoritatively be compared as a basis of determining whether there is equality or not with the amount that is spent over in another school which is operated for a seperate racial group? [ 8 9 ] A. I think that is false under the same general ization that was illustrated by the example that I gave. The answer would be no. (R. p. 403) A. I don’t quite understand the ques tion. I guess I had better clarify that in this fashion: As I understand your original question, we did not have the word “ratio” in it as to whether the number of teachers employed in each of these schools is of some significance. Of course, it is. I am illustrating. We might get to the point at Hoffman-Boston or Wash ington and Lee, as far as that is concerned, or school X, to get away from the emotional connotations of these situations, and you might say we have only one pupil, we have one negro pupil, and we have got to pro vide for him and we will give him one teacher and that teacher will teach everything. The one teacher would not be sufficient. I will put it that way. When we get into the matter of ratios, we might use the same example. I would say if there were only one negro pupil in this County, he certainly couldn’t go to Washington and Lee School and the School Board certainly would set up a school for him and they would have to provide a minimum of, let us say, ten teachers, giving a ratio of ten teachers to one pupil. Let us suppose — I think Dr. Dawson states somewhere that you have got to have at least ten teachers. I am not certain about that. But let us sup pose the School Board provided only five teachers, (R. p. 404) then you would have a ratio of one pupil to five teachers. You go to Washington and Lee School and you will find a ratio of twenty-two pupils to one teacher. There is a great difference there, talking about ratios, and said no. [ 90] In this example, even though we have the ratio of one pupil to five teachers, I think it could still be demonstrated that there was inequality there, even though the ratio was greatly---- B y M r . R a n so m : Q. I think you have cleared it up and your an swer has made my question clear. That is the point I wanted to determine, because it is a small school and the fact that there are few teachers over there, you can justify the small number of teachers because of the small number of pupils if you are going to maintain separate schools? Is that correct? A. That is right. You have to go back further than those ratios. Q. So far as the two schools are concerned, basing your conclusion upon not only your own examination but the report that Dr. Dawson made, are you of the opinion that Hoffman-Boston at the present time has an equal or substantially equal — and I am using that word “substantially” very advisedly because I am going to withdraw it from any consideration — (R. p. 405) at least, I hope to withdraw it from any consideration in this case, but I am using it now for the purpose of getting an opinion from you — do they have an equal teaching facility at Hoffman-Boston in comparison with that of Washington and Lee? By teaching facility I mean do they have a sufficient number of teachers to give the courses that are offered or should be offered at the school? A. No. Q. And that is a conclusion you arrived at even after examining this last report of Dr. Dawson and that is based on the latest figures available to you? [ 91] A. Yes. Q. Where is the deficiency, if you can point out any? A. I am not able to say in great detail but I can give some examples. It would be over in the area of shop work for example, where at Washington and Lee there are several shop teachers, each in his spe cialty, and I think no one would argue that at the vocational level the teacher must not be a specialist in his field. At Hoffman-Boston we have one general shop teacher, who, as I gather from Dr. Dawson s report, since he said units of other courses are taught, I take it at the Hoffman-Boston School there is a single teacher that teaches industrial arts, bricklay ing as a vocation, and I take it also — this comes (R. p. 406) from Dr. Dawson — I take it also he teaches a vocational unit in auto mechanics, a voca tional unit in sheet metal and maybe vocational unit in something else but, to get to your question---- Q. May I interrupt. Do you understand from Dr. Dawson’s report that this man teaches the voca tional units in those specialties that you have just enumerated? A. I say that that is my understanding of the re port. Q. The report will speak for itself. A. But to get back to your original question, I will say that I don’t know of anybody — I shouldn t say that because I have been in a lot of cases of this kind and some surprising statements are made, but you would require several teachers in the shop. I was about to say that we can in this academic work argue that a person who is a specialist in history ought to be able to teach physical education. Some [ 9 2 ] body might make that argument, but certainly no body can argue that a man who has training in auto mechanics can teach printing, so you must have ad ditional teachers there. 1 would say further in the languages that you would need to have additional teachers at the Hoffman-Bos- ton School and probably in the sciences, but I am not prepared to go into a detailed analysis of the needs there. Q. I don’t want you to go into a comparison of (R. p. 407) the individual teachers or to go into their capacities. I wanted to get your general opinion. While we are on that point, would the compara tive experience of teaching both in Arlington County and elsewhere have any significance in determining the problem of equality in the schools? For instance, let us assume from Dr. Dawson’s report and your own study, that there are a number of teachers in Wash ington and Lee who have taught in Arlington County for a long number of years. I think in the Hoffman- Boston School probably six or seven years is the max imum of experience. There are some reasons assigned for that. Would the factor of teaching experience af fect the quality offered the children of the County? A. Yes. May I extend that remark? Q. Certainly. A. I would say yes, with qualifications. The State of Virginia says yes — period — because the salary scale is based on experience. I don’t suppose the State or Arlington just gives teachers money because of need but rather the salary scale in this State is based — or in Arlington is based in part on experience so that up to a certain number of years of experience — I don’t know whether it stops at ten years or twenty, [ 9 3 ] but, up to a certain point, the more years of experience a person lias had, the more money the school system pays him, and that is clearly based on the assumption (R. p, 408) that he is worth more, that he is better able to direct the development of children. That is the answer clearly. There can be no dispute on that point. That is the answer of the Arlington School Board and of the State and I would agree with them in part. My reservation is that I think sometimes a teacher can have too much experience in individual cases. Q. Assuming that Dr. Dawson concludes that, after maybe four or five years, experience is relative ly unimportant; would you agree or disagree with that? A. I would disagree and I think that the State school salary schedule and the salary schedule in the Arlington schools would, of course, controvert that statement. What I meant when we have too much ex perience, we sometimes find a teacher with, let us say, forty years of experience who is just too old for the system and yet almost all salary scales have in crement up through not more than twenty years tea ching experience and then they stop. Q. If you will refer to Dr. Dawson’s report — do you have that before you? A. Yes, I do. Q. Will you look at his Table 11 on page 27? A. Yes. Q. Looking at those totals, what would be your opinion — those tables, incidently, give the age or years experience in both schools of the number of (R. p. 409) teacher What would be your opinion as to the comparative efficiency of the teachers in the [9 4 ] two schools, without regard to the numbers involved, just based upon the experience ratings? A. Well, it shows here — I will have to look at this table. Counsel will understand that I have not had an opportunity to examine in detail each of these many tables. It may take a minute or two. There are 78 teachers in the Washington and Lee School and the median teacher has had about nine years of experience. There are ten teachers in the Hoffman-Boston School and the median teacher has had about five years of experience. So your question as posed, just on the fact of experience, discounting all other factors, the teaching staff at the Hoffman- Boston School is superior — of the Washington and Lee School is superior to that of the Hoffman-Boston School. Q. While we are on this subject of teachers, you had occasion to make your own study as to the tea ching load at Hoffman-Boston and at Washington and Lee, that is the number of classes taught that are taught today and the number of subjects. I think per haps there are two divisions. It is the number of hours actually taught and also the number of sub jects that are taught and you also have seen what Dr, Dawson says is true as of today. What is your opinion (R. p. 410) as to the comparison between the teaching load, using the testimony that I have used as to the two schools? Is it an undue burden at Hoffman-Bos ton or is it an undue burden at Washington and Lee upon the teacher in that they have to teach more classes or more hours or have to teach more subjects than the teachers at the other schools? Compare them either way; I don’t care. A. Let me take up both of those because they are [9 5 ] two different things. First, I have here the number of different subjects taught and one of the striking things which I observe in the 1947-48 year is that the teachers at the Hoffman-Boston School have to teach a number of different subjects, while those at the Wash ington and Lee School were almost altogether in the fields of specialization. I have here, for example, showing in this tabulation, subjects such as history and civics, science and biology, and so on, are regard ed as a single subject. I think attention needs to be called to a difference but a defensible definition made by Dr. Dawson in his covering of this same topic where, as I understand, he would define a sub ject in terms of number of different preparations. Q. Will you explain that for us? A. I hope this doesn’t become too confused on the terminology of education. I am in the statistics going to quote subjects as major fields of knowledge because (R. p. 411) what I wanted to get at here was whether the teacher was competent in terms of his training to teach the subject concerned. As 1 understand, Dr. Dawson’s summary on this same point was not con cerned with that. He was oncerned with how much work the teacher had to do after school. I wasn’t too much concerned with that. He was concerned with the number of different preparations. It is my under standing if a teacher had one subject in English literature and another subject in American literature, that would count as two subjects, while in the stat istics I am going to cite here, I would count it only as one. You see, Mr. Ransom, the State of Virginia, and every other state in the United States, as far as that is concerned, has set up certain certification require [ 96 ] ments in which a person who teaches a subject must have a certain amount of work in that field, the as sumption being that a person needs to know the sub ject he teachers. This report shows that in ’47-’48 there was a total of 81 teachers at Washington and Lee School and 78 of them taught one subject in their own field of specialization. Dr. Dawson’s report will show something else because of the difference in de fining the terms. The other three taught two subjects. At Hoffman-Boston School one teacher taught one sub ject, three taught two subjects — two; I am sorry. I will go back over that. At Hoffman-Boston School, one (R. p. 412) teacher taught one subject, three teachers taught two subjects, two teachers taught three sub jects, one teacher taught four subjects, and there is an example here somewhere of a teacher in ’46-’47, Miss Griffin, who taught five different subjects — history, english, typing, physical education and math ematics. I do not have in this report any study of Miss Griffin’s qualifications but she did not at that time have certification in history, english, typing, physi cal education and mathematics, and that is the gen eral thing in this report, although that is an unusual case. That is what I was trying to show here. The second part of your question was concerned with the teaching load, the number of pupils, and I think Dr. Dawson’s report shows — I don’t know on which p a g e------- M r . R o bin so n : Page 30. A. (continuing) Total number of pupils taught, both junior and senior high schools — this would show” that the teaching load of the Washington and Lee [ 9 7 ] teachers is somewhat higher than that of the Hoffman- Boston teachers and therefore they are better off. B y M r . R a n so m : * Q. I am not talking about the number of teachers, I am talking about the number of hours per day that the teachers teach in classes. A. I am answering the question in number of pu- ( R. p. 413) pupils taught. I am through with this number ( R. p. 414) of subjects. A. I can say this, that at the time the study was made, there was no teacher of physical education at Hoffman-Boston. I think that five teachers taught physi cal education or were supposed to have taught physi cal education. They did not hold certification in this field and, as a matter of fact, in some of the observa tions I made — I can’t say that this went on during the entire year and I want to make that clear, but in some instances, at least, the teacher did not direct the physical education. It was more or less a free period for pupils in which physical education was listed but the pupils were doing whatever they wanted to do in going about the building and talking or what not and the teacher was doing the same thing, but there was no certification there and that is the question you have asked. Q. In your opinion, is that good educational prac tice? A. No. I want to make it clear that I did not ob serve throughout the year and I would not claim that was typical. Q. Still talking about teachers, in your original re port you found that, of course, on paper there was [ 98 J no difference so far as the salaries of teachers was con cerned, that is, theoretically negro and white teachers (R. p. 415) paid alike on the basis of their experience and their educational attainments. A. I wouldn’t say theoretically. They are paid ac cording to the same salary scale. Q. But you did find that the median salary for negro teachers was much below that of the whites? Is that true? A. Yes, that is true, and I know that Dr. Dawson’s report shows that is true now. In fact, the differential for this year is greater than it was last year. Q. The differential this year is actually greater than it was at the time you made your study? A. Well, I would have to refer to the figures for that. I just noted that for the second year covered by Dr. Dawson. Q. Look at Table 8 on page 22 of Dr. Dawson’s report and your own figures on page 4 of your report. Your tables is on page 5, your conclusions on page 4. A. Dr. Dawson’s report shows that in ’46-’47 — this covers the same period, so we could use Dr. Dawson’s report — the median salary of Washington and Lee teachers in ’46-’47 was $2,861 plus, Hoffman- Boston $2,274, a difference of about $600.00. For the next year, ’47-’48, the difference is approximately $425.00. For the current year or rather for ’48-’49, the difference is $542,00. (R. p. 416) Q. $542.50, to be exact? A. That is right, so that although the difference is not as great as it was in ’48-’47, it is greater than it was in ’47-’48 and I want to make clear that that dif ference is not a difference in scale. They both pay ac [9 9 ] cording to the same scale but it reveals a difference in qualifications, that is the qualification set up by the School Board of Arlington County — not my qualifica tions. Q. That is what I wanted. The difference, because of the qualifications of the teachers that are employed under the sytem that is in existence over there at the present time? A. That is right Q. Doctor, let us get down to these plants. As suming that the plants have not been increased in size, that is so far as building structures are concerned, ex cept in one respect, that there has been a two-room elementary building erected on Hoffman-Boston ground since you were there, and assuming that the build ings are otherwise in substantially the same condition as to external structure and the number of rooms in volved, will you tell us whether or not the two schools can afford equal instructional opportunities to the members of the two races if they are segregated for education? I am talking about the building itself and the rooms; I am not talking about equipment or any thing else. A. The answer to that question would have to be (R. p.417) no, with this qualification or explanation, that the Hoffman-Boston School has no facilities — I would say meagre facilities for physical education for the standard high school sports, such as basketball, and would require more space for that. It did not have an adequate amount of space for shop subjects and possibly not for commercial education. Q. Possibly what? A. Possibly not enough space for physical education. There is no provision for a lunch room which would need [ 100] to be made or cafeteria. There is no provision for art. Did I mention art? Q. No, you haven’t. Is there any provision for music? A. I thought I mentioned music. I should mention that also. So that, in the absence of any possible pro vision for the subjects and field of knowledge I have mentioned, it would be impossible to provide equality under those conditions. # # # # & (R. p. 418) Q. In the light of your own observa tion and the photographs you have seen on the con ditions of the two auditoriums today, would you say that there is equality in the auditorium provisions at the two schools? A. No, there is not. Q. And in whose favor or disfavor? A. In favor of Washington and Lee pupils. Q. When you were at Washington and Lee you saw the two gymnasiums that are used there? A. I did and the adjacent dressing room. Q. Showers and locker facilities? A. All of which are an integral part of gymnasium facilities. (R. p. 419) Q. Each one of those capable of being used independently of the other? A. Yes. Q. Did you find any similar facilities at Washing ton and Lee — I mean at Hoffman-Boston? A. No. Q. Is there a gymnasium at all there, to your know ledge? A. Only by courtesy of title. [ 1 0 1 ] Q. What do you mean by that? A. Well, the room which is called a combination au ditorium and gymnasium, I think, referred to that in my report, because that is what it is called — actually it is not a convertible auditorium-gymnasium. The ceiling is not high enough for gymnasium purposes. The lights hang down and are not protected; the win dows are not protected; so that it is only by courtesy or discourtesy that it may be called a gymnasium. Act ually, it is not a gymnasium in a functional sense and it cannot be. O. Doctor, in your opinion, after all the chairs are removed from there and assuming that those lights were protected and the windows were protected, is that room large enough for any competitive indoor sport, such as basketball, which I understand is one of the things that you refer to as a common school (Ft. p. 420) sport? A. I don’t remember that. Q. You do remember there are supporting posts? A. That is right. I don’t remember the dimensions of the room and I don’t know now the dimensions of a minimum size basketball court, so I hesitate to an swer that. I think I should add this too: An integral part of the gymnasium is the provision made for sani tary facilities. You see, these things are put in schools to educate the pupils. I mean in a gymnasium facility there should be showers, lockers and the like which are provided at Washington and Lee School but, as I re call, are not provided at ail at the Hoffman-Boston School as a part of the gymnasium facilities. Q. Will you still be of the opinion that the facili ties for recreation at Hoffman-Boston in the so-called auditorium-gymnasium are still inferior to those at [ 1 0 2 ] Washington and Lee, if I should tell you that since you saw the auditorium over there they have put some lockers in the hall. There are no showers, no addition to the plumbing facilities at all, but there are lockers which are — well, they are lockers. I won’t say what they are for. Would that make any difference in your conclusion as to the inferiortiy? A. No, it would not affect the conclusion. Q. You would still say that the provisions at Wash ington and Lee are far superior to those at Hoffman- (K. p. 421) Boston? A. That is right. Q, Do you recall, when you were at the negro school, Hoffman-Boston, where the principal’s office is located? A. Yes. Q. On what floor was that? A. Well, that was on the second floor, I think it was on the second floor facing the front of the build ing. Q. If I should inform .you, and it the facts will disclose, as they have been testified in this testimony prior to your appearance on the stand, that that room which was formerly occupied by Mr. Sydnor, the Prin cipal, as his office, has been converted into what is called a music room with no structural change in it and with no instruments placed therein, would you say that compares equally or unequally with the music instruction that is afforded at Washington and Lee? A. I would say it was unequal. # # # * # (R. p. 422) Q. Assuming that the choral room and music room at Washington and Lee are sound [ 1 0 3 ] proofed — that the choral room is well sound-proofed with Celotex and the instrument room has poor sound proofing — the instrument room has no sound-proof ing — would you then say in comparing that one room, which was the Principal’s office — would you say that it is better — I am sorry I am getting tangled up — the opportunities for music instruction in Washington and Lee are superior or inferior to those of Hoffman-Bos- ton? A. The facilities at Washington and Lee are far superior, regardless of the sound-proofing. There are differences in sound-proofing, of course, the matter of size, the matter of the facilities, the piano, the sound reproducing machine. I don’t see how the choral group gets in this small Principal’s office. Q. Let us move on. When you were at Hoffman- Boston, and assuming that there has been no change, did you find any facilities for instruction in art? A. No. (R. p. 423) Q. Would you say therefore, that the opportunities for instruction in art are equal or unequal in the two schools? A. Obviously unequal. Q. Is art instruction considered essential or at least helpful toward a general well-rounded education for a high school student? A. I think there would be absolutely no disagree ment among American educators or, indeed, the en tire aesthetic side of experience that it is an essential part of the curriculum of children in American schools. Q. You said the entire aesthetic side; you include music along with that? A. That is right. Q. This is not aesthetic but it is a question of es [ 1 0 4] sentials. Physical education is also considered an es sential part of the general education at the high school level? Is that correct? A. That is light, and, of course, in Virginia, it is required. I think I pointed out in my report that the provision made at Hoffman-Boston High School at the time I made this study did not meet the legal require ments of the State of Virginia and I don’t know how the Board got away with breaking that law. e # * # * (B. p. 424) Have you seen the pictures of the library at the Hoffman-Boston School that have been introduc ed in evidence? A. Yes. Q. That library has been changed since you made your personal inspection? Isn’t that true? A. Yes. Q. Have you examined in Dr. Dawson’s report, the appendix which is supplementary to his main report (R. p. 425) on page 10, appendix B — have you ex amined the list of the periodicals that are provided in the two high schools? A. Which page is that? Q. Page 10 of the appendix, appendix B? A. Yes, I have seen that listing. Are you referring to the listing on page 38 of the appendix? ■Q. Page 10 of the appendix and it is probably in another place in the report. A. Yes, I have examined this. ■Q. Assuming that there are ninety periodicals furn ished for Washington and Lee High School as against, I believe, fifteen or twenty-one — I am not sure since you have my copy — at Hoffman-Boston, would you [ 1 0 5 ] say that without regard to the book content, just per iodical content of the library, that the facilities are equal? A. No, they are unequal. * & * # # (R. p. 426) Q. Make any comment you want, A. I think it is rather important. There is shown here a listing — I don’t know the number but certainly there are three or four times as many magazines and periodicals available to the child attending Washing ton and Lee Scohol as to the child attending Hoffman- Boston School. You might wind this up with this per capita too because it is a good illustration. A slanted opinion might be given that when we divide the num ber of periodicals by the number of pupils that the pupil at Hoffman-Boston is better off than the pupil at Washington and Lee but here we get a clear ex ample of the fallacy involved in any such reasoning. Actually, the white child in this community lias avail able to him many, many periodicals which the negro child never sees. The negro child doesn’t have them in the home and neither does the white child. The only place he can see these are in the school and the only place he has direction in using them. I could look at any of a dozen of these things but let us take the United Siaes News, a very important summary of national news, what goes on in the Con gress. Here is a pupil who is assigned a term paper or essay in civics in learning to be an American cit- (R. p. 427) izen. If he is at the Washington and Lee School he may go and look at this United States News. If he is at the Hoffman-Boston School he may not, and we could take that right on down the line, and it [ 108] is quite clear, and I don’t see how the National Ed ucation Association or Dr. Dawson could come to any other conclusion but that it is quite clear that the child who has access only to this limited number of periodicals is disadvantaged in his educational de velopment compared to having available this long list, nor do I think it is a relevant argument to say that this listing here is a longer listing than is furnished to white children in some other county in Virginia. It is clear here that in this community the white child has many more opportunities for experience and de velopment in the area of magazine and periodicals than the negro child does in this community. That is just crystal clear and you can’t by any hocus-pocus of per captia usage break down the validity of that argument which is apparent to any logical mind, I would think. It doesn’t require any extended train ing to say that that is true. If you wish me to, I could point out many of these other periodicals which are available in one school and not in the other. (R. p. 428) A. Here is an example, and I will try not to be so verbose, but to take care of the matter of the Saturday Review of Literature, which I suppose is read by most of the well educated people along the eastern seaboard, at least, the child gets access to the Saturday Review of Literature during his high school days. It is available in one school and not in another. I think that is an example of how the child is handi- (K, p. 429) capped in a minor way in this instance in. his educational development. [ 107 J B y M r . R a n so m : Q. I am going to leave the library in a moment. I will probably have a question about that later but I want to go into the question of the science teaching at the two schools, that is the science facilities. Do you recall how much space or how many rooms were devoted to science teaching at Washington and Lee when you visited it? A. I think that is shown in the report. I think there were four science rooms. I may be in error. Q. Did you observe the equipment available there? A. Yes, I did. Q. Did you observe the number of 'rooms which are devoted to the teaching of science at Hoffman- Boston? If so, how many do you recall? A. Yes, there was one room. Q. Did you observe the equipment there? A. Yes. Q. Assuming that there are no changes in the num ber of rooms or in the type of equipment, are the pro visions for teaching science at Hoffman-Boston equal to those of teaching science at Washington and Lee? A. No. Q. Explain where the difference lies? (R. p. 430) A. I think if we use Dr. Dawson’s re port, we could bring that right up to date. It is not necessary to make that assumption. If we were to look in the appendix at the equipment---- Q. Appendix B, page 14? A. Yes. Following the instruction of the Court I will not go into detail at this point. Q. You don’t need to enumerate. A. The general tiring is that there is much more [ 1 0 8] equipment available in the sciences in each instance, whether in biology, chemistry, or physics, for the in struction of pupils at Washington and Lee School. Let us start with the first item and I am not going to say any more about it. The Washington and Lee pupil has — there are thirty-four microscopes. At the Hoffman-Boston there are no microscopes. Q. There is one. A. There is one miscrope. There are opaque pro jectors — in general, there is a great deal more equip ment and greater variety of equipment. In the teaching of science, although in high schools generally the demonstration method is used rather than the laboratory method, it is not simply a matter of the teacher standing up and giving demonstrations- The pupils themselves participate, set up small dem onstrations of their own, and it is simply not possible (R. p. 431) with the difference in the amount of equip ment to have the same level of instruction. Q. Doctor, as far as the teaching of the commer cial subjects are concerned, assuming that at Wash ington and Lee there are typewriting machines, just as there are at Hoffman- Boston School, but that they also have business machines such as the adding ma chine, the mimeograph and perhaps other duplicating machines but do not have anything but the typing machines at Hoffman-Boston, would you say that the teaching of the commercial courses can be or is equal? A. I would say they are unequal. Q. Against whom would the inequality exist? A. It would be in favor of the Washington and Lee pupils. Q. Now, finally we come to the shops. Let us as sume that there has been no change in the shops since [ 109] you made your inspection. If you will refer to the Dawson appendix E, starting at page 18, and continu ing through, what would you say as to the compara tive abillity to teach shop subjects, vocational subjects, at the two schools, just looking at the list of equip ment that is available without reference to the courses? A. Well, the provisions at Washington and Lee are (K. p. 432) far superior to those at Hoffman-Boston. Q. You will notice that both of those schools have what is listed as a general shop. Aside from that, there are no provisions, according to the report that you are now examining, for teaching the subject of automobile mechanics, mechanical drawing, machine shop, sheet metal work, printing shop or the wood shop. In your opinion, can those subjects be taught in the general shop that you saw at Hoffman-Boston with the equipment that is there and listed here and in the space that they have at the present time? A. Not as vocational subjects. Q. Would it be possible to even, give any dem onstration work with the equipment that they have on these various subjects? A. Well, there is no equipment listed here in these subjects other than for mechanical drawing. I seem to recall in Dr. Dawson’s report it was stated that cer tain vocational units were offered in this school. It is not clear to me how this is possible or what the de finition of a vocation unit is. I note at the Hoffman- Boston School there is a grinder, for example. It may be in the machine shop the student may learn to grind a chisel and that may be a unit — I don’t know — but I did not see how it would be possible at all to offer units from the equipment listed here, to offer voca tional units of any of these other subjects. [ 1 1 0 ] (R. p. 433) Q. I think at the moment we can aban don this question of the physical equipment. When you were there did you discover, when you made your ex amination, any infirmary at either school for the care of children who might become temporarily ill? A. There was, as I recall, an infirmary at the Wash ington and Lee School. I don’t recall a provision at Hoffman-Boston; I am sorry. Q. Dr. Jenkins, I want you to look at Table 30 in the appendix or in the report on page 55 of the Daw son report which refers to the number and titles of the books that are in the schools. Do you have that before you? A. Yes, I am looking at that. Q. Will you tell me the total number of volumes in the two schools, that is, in each school, as it ap pears from that report. (R. p. 434) A. This shows a total of 8,682 for Washington and Lee, 1,007 for grade 7 to 12 and 211 for elementary. I don’t know on what basis that dis tinction is made. Q. Without going into the classification of those works which appears from the table, will you express an opinion as to the relative efficiency for teaching purposes of the two libraries? A. The library at Washington and Lee, both from this and from my observation of the types of books they have, is far superior to that of Hoffman-Boston. Q. Would the fact that Hoffman-Boston has fewer pupils have any relation to the necessity for fewer volumes of works over there? A. Only a very minor relationship as it may relate to duplicate copies. The larger school may need more duplicate copies of certain general references and [ I l l ] other books but that is a minor item and, substan tially, the Hoffman-Boston School would have sub stantially the same number of volumes as Washington and Lee and I won’t take the time to go into the same general explanation of that. It is the same thing I men tioned under the periodicals. Q. Why should they have the same number? I do you want to answer that? A. I say I can repeat that. It is the same thing I mentioned under periodicals. We could take the same (R. p. 435) type of example. Q. When you were over there in 1947, and from the examination of the pictures that you have seen here and which have been introduced in evidence, you have a general knowledge of the atheltic fields at both schools, that is the outdoor recreation space? A. Yes, the outdoor space. Q. Is there, in your opinion, an adequate outdoor recreation space at Hoffman-Boston? A. No. Q. Is there such an adequate space at Washington and Lee? A. Yes. Q. Does the atheltic space, that is for outdoor rec- reaction, have any educational value? Does it affect the quality of education that can be offered at the sep arate school? A. I think it quite obviously does. Q. In what respect, sir? A. At Washington and Lee School there are pro visions for playing football, a football field, soccer if they wish to play soccer; there is a running track in which they may have events in running, jumping, and the like, and those physical education activities are [ 112] an integral part of the development of youngsters in (R. p. 436) their general education. That is one. Second, the provision of these facilities for these sports in these days, fortunately or unfortunately, pro vides a great motivating factor. Many boys stay in high school because they can play football. That is their major interest and as an educational program, we build on that interest and try to get the pupil to learn something in addition. Certainly among the ne gro boys whom I know very well, the success of negroes in athletics recently, in professional football teams and professional baseball teams and in track events, Olym pics and inter-collegiate events, have aroused great interest in that area. At Hoffman-Boston there is no opportunity for yougsters to engage in those activties. Therefore, they lose the general educational value and they lose the motivating value of the experience, i might mention also there is a certain vocational value. Fortunately, or unfortunately, a good football player at Washington and Lee, if he is good, and he makes the All-State team, doesn’t have to worry about his college expenses. If he is very good he may get fifty or one hundred offers from colleges all over the country to go to college at no cost and that is possible because there is a football field where he can build up a rep utation of that kind. (R. p. 437) Further, it may be that vocationally he may get on a pro team and earn a living. Those are the three things that I have mentioned that pupils in Washington and Lee have an opportunity, simply because the physical facilities are available and which pupils from Hoffman-Boston are absolutely excluded altogether Q. I am going back to a point that I asked you a [ 113] little while ago. I don’t think that I developed it as thoroughly as it should be. In the commerical courses that are offered at the two schools did you find at Hoffman-Boston any provision such as a bookkeeping room where bookkeeping may be taught? A. No. Q. Did you find any equipment such as calculat ing machines over there which could be used for in structional purposes at Hoffman-Boston? A. Other than typewriters, there was no equip ment. ' Q. 1 am talking about calculatng machines. A. No calculating machines. M r . D ouglas: D o you m ean adding machines? M r . R a n so m : There are several types. B y M r . R a n so m : Q. Where a student is not taught the use of various calculating machines, is it thoroughly taught? A. A student is greatly handicapped. (R. p. 438) Q. If he does not have that type of instruction? A. That is right. Q, At Washington and Lee, of course, you did see those calculating machines? Is that true? A. One or more. Q. Come to the cafeteria. Was there a cafeeteria at Hoffman-Boston? A. No. Q. Any type of provision for the feeding of child ren that you saw? A. As I recall, there was no provision whatever for them. [ 1 1 4 ] Q. Is there a cafeteria at Washington and Lee? A. Yes. Q. Does the existence of a cafeteria in the school itself have any value, either educational or otherwise, and, if so, will you tell us what it is? A. There again, it is a question on which all ed ucators in this country are agreed, that the educational value of the school lunch program and the cafeteria program is part of the integral part of the students educational experience and it is revealed in part by the fact that the Federal Government now spends millions of dollars in helping schools to develop lunch programs. The educatiaonal value is this, that many, many (R. p. 439) children in our schools come from under privileged homes and in the past, when I was in school, a youngster would get a cold jelly sandwich and a cold bean sandwich and an apple and that was his lunch, and it has been found that there is a relation ship between the student’s health status and his gen eral vitality during the day and the kind of meals that he eats. So that if it is possible for a child to get a hot, well-balanced lunch in the middle of the day, that contributes to his immediate physical efficiency and vitality. Secondly, there is the matter of developing health habits. In developing American youth we want to get them so they can choose the right kind of diet and one of the objectives of a well-organized cafeteria, one of the objections of the cafeteria at Washington and Lee High School, is to train children in the selection of good foods. That is conceivably as im portant as learning the ablative in Latin. The child [115] ren at Hoffman-Boston have no such opportunity for development in this area. Q. Yesterday there was some discussion of the courses offered in Washington and Lee High School which were not offered at Hoffman-Boston, a course in so-called distributive education. Assuming that there is a special room provided for that at Washington and Lee and no such room and no such work done at Hoff man-Boston, would you say that there is therefore in- (R. p. 440) equality in the services that are offered the children, in the respective schools? A. Yes. Q. Does distributive education, as it was explain ed to us from the stand yesterday, have any particular value in an educational system, that is, does it have value such that it ought to be offered, in your opinion, to all children, if it is offered to any? A. Well, I don’t recall how it was described yes terday. I will answer the question in the light of what is offered in these two schools. No distributive edu cation is offered at Hoffman-Boston. Washington and Lee does have some phases of distributive education. Distributive education is concerned in general with the matter of the distribution of goods. They get people, such as sales persons and the like. It is my understanding now at the Washington and Lee School —I may be in error but it is my understanding that there is a part-time program in which children will do some of their work in school and get their practical experience in the community. Whether or not there is a part-time school, there is certainly instruction in such things as salesmanship. We are a great selling nation and a large proportion of our employed labor forces are in the area of dis [ 1 1 6 ] tribution and the children who have an opportunity for training in that field certainly have an advantage ( R. p. 441) as a group over children who do not have it Further, the children make contacts through distribu tive education with prospective employers. I don t know how many negro salesgirls may be found in Arlington but there may be some relationship between the num ber to be found in department stores and the like and the opportunities they have for training. There may be some such relationship. Q. Is it an accepted belief among educators that there should be guidance work done in the high schools and that there should be someone who devotes the major portion of his or her time to guidance of stu dents? A. I am trying to think whether I should answer “yes” or “no”, to that question. Q. Let me break it down for you. First of all, is guidance work necessary in a school? A. Yes. Q. Would it, in your opinion, be advisable to have a room where the guidance of students, individual guidance, could be conducted privately? In other words, would it be advisable to have a guidance office? A. Yes, that would be a desirable thing. Q. Do you know whether or not there is such an office room devoted to that purpose alone at Wash ington and Lee School? (R. p. 442) A. I think there was such a room at Washington and Lee. I am not too certain about that but I think so. Q. Do you know whether there was such a room at Hoffman-Boston? A. No, there was no such room at Hoffman-Boston. [ H 7 ] Q. Do you know whether there was any teacher over there who devoted her time to guidance work? A. No, there was not. Q. While we are on that subject, what is the value of guidance work in an educational system? A. Again, I don’t want to give the appearance of lecturing. Q. If you can answer in one or two sentences? A, It isn’t a question that could be answered in one or two sentences because it goes back to the whole philosophy of education in this country where we put emphasis on the value of the individual, and the pur pose of guidance is to help the individual child to ex press his own abilities and interests, how intelligent he is, how proficient he is in academic subjects, what his interests are. Its purpose further is to acquaint the youngster with the opportunities he has for develop ment vocationally, to know what the opportunities are in government service or in mining or any of the other (R. p. 443) occupations. Guidance extends into the personality area. It is an attempt to help the individual to become adjusted and get along with other individuals socially and in select ing avocations of music or art which contribute to the fuller life. Q. It resolves itself into this, that it is a matter of individual counselling between whoever is doing the guidance and the particular student. A. That is an essential technical ---- Q. And therefore, it could be more properly done if it were done in a private room? A. That is right. Q. Let us move on, please. In regard to a library — A. I had better qualify that and say there are [ 118] some phases of it that need to be done face to face with the individual. There are many phases of guid ance that are carried on. in groups or in classrooms. I wouln’t want to say it is exclusively a personal matter between counselor and student. Q. In dealing with the library, I neglected to ask you about some of the requirements. Is it either a re quirement or is it necessary that there be a room which might be designated as the library office or workroom for the use of the person who is in charge of the li brary? A. I take it it would be desirable certainly to have a room for a workroom for the accumulation and cata- (R. p. 444) ioging of books, for the repairing of books and periodicals and the like. Q. Assuming — and you can make the assumption from the photographs that are in evidence here, that at Hoffman-Boston High School there is, immediately adjacent to the library, a room, somewhere that may be six by ten or seven by ten — approximately that size — which has now been controverted into the Principal’s office and is being used by the Principal as the administrative office, and that is the only ad ministrative office in Hoffman-Boston, would you. say that is good educational practice, depriving the library of any office and using that as the administrative office? A. Does it have an outside window? Q. No outside window. A. Does it have a waiting room for students who are waiting to see the Principal? Q. No waiting room? A. No. Q- You say “no”; it is bad practice? A. Yes. [ 119] Q, Do you recall on your visit to Hoffman-Boston seeing a room which was designated as the teachers lounge? A. At Hoffman-Boston? Q. At Hoffman-Boston. (Pi. p. 445) A. Yes. Q. Do you recall where that room was? A. I think it is adjacent to the auditorium. Q, A room oft the stage? A. I think so. Q. Did you see teachers’ lounges at Washington and Lee? A. I think I saw the men’s lounge over there but, again, I am a little hazy on that. I am not too certain that I did. Q. Are teachers’ lounges desirable in any well- rounded educational system? A. Yes, they are highly desirable. Q. What value do they have? A. They give the teacher an opportuity for relax ation and getting away for a few minutes, at least, from the hubbub of the school day and primarily for the purpose of relaxation and revitalization of the teacher, therefore making the teacher a little more effective and efficient when she goes back to the classroom rountine. Q. One last question before we get into an entirely different field, Doctor, and that is this: I think in your report and certainly Dr. Dawson’s report there is some reference to the architectural construction of the two plants, the exterior views, and their relative appear ance. While I know that you are not an architect and (R. p. 446) I haven’t tried to qualify you as such, can you, as an educator, looking at the buildings from [ 120] the standpoint of the impression that they will make upon the relatively young mind of the student who is coming to the schools, say that there is equality or in equality between Washington and Lee and Hoffman- Boston? A. Well, I would say that the Washington and Lee building is much more pleasing in its general ar chitectural appearance, much more pleasing than the Hoffman-Boston School. Q. I am going to leave you on the comparison of the two schools and we are going to talk about study now — course. At both schools technically there are three courses of study offered, one known as academic, one as commerical and one as general high school courses. I say technically they are offered or, at least designated as being offered at both schools. Will you detail the differences between those three (R. p. 447) types of courses of study for us? A. In a large high school it is possible to have a comprehensive program offering what we call a differ entiated curricula, that is, curricula which are des igned to meet the needs of different groups of students. In the present instance, there are three curricula available at Washington and Lee — either three or four. There is the so-called academic curriculum which is primarily for college preparatory course for perhaps thirty-five percent of youngsters who are going on to college. There is the commerical curriculum, centered around typing, shorthand, bookkeeping, office practice which is designed to prepare youngsters for secretarial and office positions. [ 121] There is a general curriculum which is usually orga nized for pupils who do not intend to go to college, chiefly because it is thought they don t have the ability to do so, find who are not taking a specialized voca tional curriculum. I think that the general view of the curriculum is that it is an offer to hold the children in school. Now, there must also be at Washington and Lee a spec ialized vocational curriculum for individuals who are taking printing, auto mechanics, sheet metal, aviation (K. p. 448) training, and the other specialized shop courses. At the Hoffman-Boston School there is only the one curriculum offered, the general curriculum. It is my understanding — the people who are in timately concerned with this may correct this but it is my understanding that there is not yet a specialized commercial curriculum in which it offers all of the sub jects necessary for a diploma in commercial work but I may be in error. Certainly at the time I made my study there was no such curriculum. Q. If you refer to Table 36 on page 65 of the Dawson report you will find the three types of diplo mas and the courses that are offered under them, according to the records of the School Board. Have you that before you now? A. Yes. Q. Do you find anything in there which show's that they give any of the subjects at Washington and Lee which will qualify the student for either the commer cial or what is called the general academic diploma? I see they have them reversed. Washington and Lee has academic first and general last — and under Hoff man- Boston, what? A. No, there is no provision here for commercial [ 122] or academic. I think I might add this: I don’t know where the Washington and Lee authorities place their (R. p. 449) shop courses. It would be general prac tice, I think, in American education to add another curriculum, the vocational curriculum for youngsters who are taking shop work, which would make a fourth. At Washington and Lee whether that is included in the electives for the general diploma, it wouldn’t be good education practice to do that. It certainly wouldn’t be the academic or commercial and it might be well to ascertain. We have a youngster taking automobile mechanics, which is his curriculum. It would hardly be one of these three but I don’t recall now — I should have investigated that a little bit more closely. O. Leaving out that question of the vocational work, there, are only three curricula that are avail- at Hoffman-Roston — three at Washington and Lee and only one at Hoffman-Boston? Is that correct? A. That is right. $ # # # # (11. p. 450) Q. I think you have probably answered (R. p. 451) the next question I am going to ask and really what I wanted to get at. The question of what he is taught in high school has a great deal of import ance as to whether he can be admitted to college, whether he is acceptable for college work? Isn’t that true? A. I want to make this clear too: This statement, as it reads — and I must answer your question — this statement I agree with as it reads but we have to under stand what it means. Certainly, the pattern of sub jects the student has has a great relationship. If no language is available it is not likely that the student [ 123 ] will become a specialist in for gem languages. If there is no mathematics, it is not likely lie will become an engineer. But what I am saying is that the measure or criterion of equality or inequality does not lie alone on the matter of whether he is going to be successful in college because only a relatively small percentage of children in these schools go to college anyway. Q. But if the courses that are offered in a given school are limited, then his opportunity or his chance of being acceptable at a college may be affected by the offer? Is that correct? A. That is right. Q. Turning to page 66, Table 37 of the Dawson report which brings it up to date, have you examined (R. p. 452) the specific courses that are offered at the two schools and compared those? A. Yes. Q. Going to specific questions then, if you have made this study in the field of English alone — let us start with that — there are no courses in either speech nor journalism offered at Hoffman-Boston School but they are offered at Washington and Lee. In your opinion, does that make the course or courses available in English at the two schools equal or un equal? A. In my opinion, they are unequal. Q. Is it possible, in your opinion, to do an equal j;ob of teaching those two subjects that I have men tioned by organizing some extra work in the regular English class at Hoffman-Boston? A. Not on the basis of inequality because once you do that, you have got to slough off some of the normal content of the course. Q. Picking another one just at random, you have [ 124 ] solid geometry that is offered at Washington and Lee and it is not offered at Hoffman-Boston. In your opin ion, is this equality of offering to the two groups of children? A. No. Q. Let us assume that Dr. Dawson states that in his opinion solid geometry could be adequately cover- (R. p. 543) ed for the negro children who are attend ing Hoffman-Boston High School by a supervised cor respondence course, would you say that is equality? A. No. Q. Do you think it can be adequately taught that way? A. It isn’t clear to me what is meant b y ---- Q. I mean in comparison with the courses the child ren in Washington and Lee would get? A. The answer is no but I say it isn’t clear to me what is meant by the term “supervised correspond ence study”. I am not familiar with that. I know what correspondence study is but I am not clear in what is meant by supervised correspondence study, but even if it were supervised, — well, I take that back, because if it were supervised to the extent of the teacher act ually teaching the course, it might resolve itself into another teaching situation, with somebody else pro viding the textbooks. The general answer would be no. Q. I take it you do not understand what is meant by the term “supervised correspondence”? A. I don’t. It is Dr. Dawson’s. Q. Neither one of us knows what he means by it and we will postpone any further questioning on that until after he has explained what he means by it. A. All correspondence study is supervised by the (R. p. 454) institution or person in charge of the course, [ 125] in that sense that the person who is taking the course writes out his lessons and sends them back to be mark ed and criticized. In that case the “supervised” would be a redundant term. I think I know what is meant here but I wouldn’t want to venture an opinion on it. You asked me further — I think that is the extent of that question. A. Just running down the list, I am going to call, certain, subjects here and then I will ask you a gen eral question about all of them: Assuming that com mercial arithmetic and general mathematics are offer ed in Washington and Lee and not offered at Lloff- man-Boston, that economics, world history, economic geography and Latin-American history are offered at Washington and Lee and not offered at Hoffman- Bos ton, that Latin is offered at Washington and Lee and not at Hoffman-Boston, that commercial law is offer ed at Washington and Lee and not at Hoffman-Bos ton, that business correspondence is offered at Wash ington and Lee and not at Hoffman-Boston, that book keeping is taught at Washington and Lee and not at Hoffman-Boston, that you have mechanical drawing at Washington and Lee and not at Hoffman-Boston, that you have courses in fine arts, music appreciation and art appreciation at Washington and Lee and not at Hoffman-Boston, that you have commercial art at Washington and Lee and not at Hoffman-Boston and then, of course, you have all of the extra activi- (R. p. 455) ties such as band and cadet training which are listed as courses in the curriculum. Would you say that the educational opportunities at Hoffman-Boston are equal to those available at Washington and Lee? A. No, they are unequal. Q. Are any of those courses I have listed — do you [ 126] consider them all courses that are proper to be taught to all of the citizens of the community — should be offered, I mean, to all of the citizens of the community, made available to them if any of them want them? A. Yes. Q. They are all standard courses for high school study? Is that correct? A. Well, as listed, they are commonly found in American high schools. Q. That is what I meant, they are commonly offer ed in the better high schools throughout the country? Is that correct? A. Commonly and some in the poorer ones — some in the better high schools and some in the poorer ones, as well. Q. It has been called to my attention, and I will ask you this question: I have named some courses that are offered in Washington and Lee School that are not offered in Hofrman-Boston. I have omitted some. I mentioned the choral work, music, which in cludes the glee club, both boys and girls and mixed, the special work shop to which you have already re- (R. p. 456) ferred, such as auto mechanics, machine shop, printing sheet metal work, woodworking, and then there is a course in retail selling, one in consumer buying and then, of course, I mentioned the cadets, both boys and girls — cadet band and the orchestra, and there is a course in automobile driving training, a course in home nursing — that course is given in both schools — a course in physical eudcation. Those courses which I did not name before are all offered at Washington and Lee and not offered at Hoffman- Boston. In view of th a t---- «? * flf # * [ 1 2 7 ] M r . Ranson: If that is true, and I am in formed now it is true, I correct my statement to that affect. Leaving out physical education and home nursing, both of which are offered in both schools, your answer is still the same as it was when I presented it to you before? (R. p. 457) A. Yes, although I did not follow in de tail. There is, in Appendix R on page 39, a list of the courses not offered in the 1948-49 year and, on the basis of those data, my opinion would still be the same. Q. That there is an inequality in the educational opportunities afforded? A. Yes. I might qualify my answer there with re ference to one thing where on the report, page 68, it is shown that shorthand is offered, I believe, at Hoff man- Boston and yet the appendix shows it was not offered during this three-year period, so I am basing my response on the appendix, rather than o n ---- Q. You are going upon what was actually offered according to the appendix? A. That is right. Q. Is there any educational value in a summer school and the offering of courses during the summer? A. Yes, I think so. Q. Let us assume that an announcement is made to the effect that summer school will be given if any body wants it but no courses are set up, and where an actual series of studies are set up in another school, would you say that the two offerings are equal? A. No, they are unequal. Q. In other words, the courses should be there and. (R. p. 458) made available? Is that correct? A. Yes. [ 128] Q. Is it true that there are some activities com monly designated as pupil activities or extra-curic- ular activities, which have some relation, to the ed ucational process in the schools? A. Yes. All of the so-called extra-curicular activi ties are actually part of the pupil’s total educational experience to the extent that some educators don’t use the term “extra-curricular”. They call them co- curricular activities. Q. On page 73 of the Dawson report, Table No. 39, you will find a listing of the club and activity pro grams in the two schools. Do you have that before you? A. Yes. Q. And you will notice, of course, the number stated for each school. Do you believe that the num ber of activities in the two schools has any relation at all to the size of the school — or let me put it another way: Shtould the number of activities be limited by the size of the school? A. Logically, the answer is no for equality and yet, where you have a small school, it is inescapable that you can’t have as many activities in a school where there are ten pupils as you can in a school where there are ten thousand but that is just a matter of inequality. (R. p. 459) Q. Let us take certain activities; for example, the cadet corps. Should there be any denial or refusal to have a cadet corps at one school because of the fact that there are only a few boys there or should they all have the benefit of that same oppor tunity of military training? A. They have got to have the same opportunities and therefore if the facilities are to be equal, there must be a cadet corps for the youngsters at Hoffman- E 129 ] Boston School. Q. What you are saying then is that so far as the opportunities are concerned to participate in these activities, the same opportunities should be available at both schools? Is that correct? A. That is right. Q. The mere physical size of the school or the school population may make some of them impossible? You may not have enough men to have a band? A. Impossible or ridiculous but that is the situation. Q. Incidentally, on that same program I want to call your attention to this, that there are certain subjects or activities marked there with asterisks which carry credit, academic credit toward graduation apparently. Is that true? A. That is what is said here and I have found that to be true in 1947. (R. p. 460) Q. And there are no such subjects carrying academic credit offered at Hoffman-Boston? A. None noticed. I might point out here also that under Washington and Lee there are subject clubs and under Hoffman-Boston are noted these subject clubs as individual clubs, business, club, science club, and so on, so that I don’t know how many subject clubs there are now — science club, art club, and so on, but if those were listed, the listings for Washington and Lee would be considerably longer than it appears here, maybe twice as long. # # # # # Q. What is meant by the term “accreditation of a school” when you use it in reference to high schools in the State of Virginia, or elsewhere? A. There has grown up in this country the custom [ 130 1 of rating or accrediting schools. High schools are ac credited on at least two levels. I think we need to be concerned here with only two levels. They are accred ited by the State, sometimes a State university, acting for the State, and sometimes by regional associations. I will take those separately. The general purpose of accreditation is to assure (R. p. 461) (1) that the school has a certain mini mum, meets certain minimum standards, so that there is a great difference in the quality of accredited schools. One accredited school is not necessarily as good as another. Accreditation, whether by the State or by the regional agency, simply says that this school meets certain minimum standards. The other purpose of accreditation is to certify so to speak, that the graduates of this particular school, that is accredited have met certain minimum require ments and therefore are eligible for admission to cer tain institutions of higher education. That is the par ticular objective of the regional accrediting association. I think there are six different regional accrediting associations. Virginia falls in the area of the Southern Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools. Wash ington, for example right across the river, is in another accrediting association, the Middle States Association. When a school is accredited by the Southern Asso ciation, then its graduates may go on normally to any in stitution in the United States and enter without exami nation. I say “normally” because some of the private in stitutions set up qualifying examinations for anyone who enters. On the other hand, if the school is not ac credited by the Regional Association, many colleges — in fact, the majority of the colleges in the United States either will not admit the individual or will admit him [ 131 ] (R. p. 462) only by special examination. Q. Then accreditation status is a thing of value to the school? A. It is a thing of great value. Q. Directing your attention to the two schools that we h av e---- A. Not only to the school but to the students, the graduates. Q. Directing your attention then to the two schools that we have under consideration at the present time, do you know whether Washington and Lee High School is accredited both by the Virginia State Depart ment of Education and by the Regional Association? I think you said it is the Southern Regional Association? A. Southern Association of Colleges and Second ary Schools. Q. Was Washington and Lee so accredited? A. Yes, it was then and is now accredited by both of these agencies. Q. At the time you made your examination was Hoffman-Boston accredited by either? A. No, it was not. Q. Is it accredited by either at the present time? A. According to Dr. Dawson’s report, it is accred ited by the state of Virginia on a qualified accredita tion. I am not prepared to say what this term means — (R. p. 463) “qualified accreditation.” If that is the usual procedure for accrediting schools during their first year, that would be acceptable as regular accred itation by the State. (,). You mean probationary? A. That is right. If it is qualification on the basis of shortages at some points, then it may not be accred ited on an equal basis. You can ascertain that, how [ 132 1 ever, from some other witness. Hoffman-Boston is not accredited by the Southern Association. Q. Since you say it is not accredited, are the stu dents who are attending Hoffman-Boston High School receiving or are they eligible to receive the same ad vantages as those who are attending Washington and Lee High School? By “advantages” I mean the oppor tunity to enter colleges without examinations? A. Those who wish to enter colleges in the main, colleges either public or private, located outside the State of Virginia, or private within the State of Vir ginia, are greatly disadvantaged. It is customary, and I take it is true in Virginia for a State institution of higher education, public, to admit without qualifica tion graduates of the State accredited schools. Outside of the State not too much attention is given to the matter of State accreditation. (R. p. 464) Q. You said they are at a disadvantage. I am not sure it is clear in the record. Which group is at a disadvantage? A. The group who attended the non-accredited high schools because there are many institutions —- I cited in my own report three of the institutions at which students from Hoffman-Boston normally go. In two of those the matter of regional accrediation would adversely affect the student’s entrance and that would be generally true in colleges throughout the United States. Q. In arriving at accreditation, can you enumerate very briefly and generally the factors that determine whether or not the Regional Association will approve or diapprove the school or accredit it? A. I would rather not go into too much detail but they take up such things as the qualification of tea f 133 1 chers, the scope of the curriculum, and the library, the pay of teachers — in general, the kind of things we are covering in the testimonoy in this trial. Q. Those factors apparently have not yet enabled this school to reach the acreditation that you men tioned as being an asset to the school? A. I am not prepared to say that. The school is not now accredited and its students are handicapped. Why it isn’t accredited, I don’t know whether the Southern Association would accredit it or not. I doubt (R. p. 485) but that it is a matter of opinion. Q. In connection with accreditation, I note from your report that there are certain honorary awards that are apparently given to schools themselves and place the school in a position of some preeminence in com parison with other schools because of the type of offer ings that are made there. You refer to them, on page 35 of your report, I believe, as honorary awards such as the National Honor Society. Is membership of the school in such a society of any value to the student? A. In my opinion, membership in the society men tioned, National Honor Society, is of great value. Many colleges will give scholarships to students simply on the strength of their membership in the National Honor Society. To explain to you, the National Honor Society is the scholastic equivalent of Phi Beta Kappa on the college level and eligible high schools, and only first class high schools, are eligible and may establish chap ters to which a certain percentage of senior students and, in some cases, junior students, are elected, pri marily on the basis of scholarship, sometimes condi tioned by school citizenship. The very fact of being a member of the National Honor Society gives the young sters a great deal of prestige. t 1 3 4 1 I mentioned the matter of scholarships. In colleges (R. p. 486) in these days, when it is difficult to get into colleges, if two individuals are applying for admis sion and one is a member of the National Honor So ciety and one isn’t, that is likely to be a factor weight ed in favor of the individual in the National Honor Society. Employers certainly look at this matter of mebership in this national organization that has chap ters throughout this country. If a girl wants a job as a typist, salesman, salesgirl, the fact that she is a member of this Society is a matter of some advantage. The other thing mentioned here, that this school also confers a Rausch & Lomb honorary science award — and in connection with this citation is the state ment that by virtue of its standards this school is qual ified to confer this award for scholastic achievement, what I have said about the National Honor Society applies also, although not in so large a scope. Q. One is a general scholarship and the other is science? A. That is right. The fact that the youngster at Hoffman-Boston has no opportunity to compete for these awards is, in my opinion, a disadvantage to him. Q. You have in your statements several times used the phrase “this school”. Those awards are available at Washington and Lee? Is that your statement? (R. p. 467) A. That is right. Q. And not available at Hoffman-Boston? A. That is right. Q. If you will turn to page 63 of Dr. Dawson’s re port there is a statement there to which I am going to direct your attention. It is in the second paragraph and I want your comment on that. It reads as follows: [ 135 1 “In the opinion of the author of this report, no high school is under obligation to prepare students to meet the various standards, many of them supported only by tradition and custom, of the private colleges in the United States. It is sufficient if the high school grad uates have had an opportunity to prepare to enter the colleges maintained by the State in which the high school is located.” With that statement before you, and in view of what you have said about accreditation, do you think that that is an accurate or fairly accurate statement of how the schools should be judged as to equality; if both schools have State accreditation and therefore can have their students admitted to the State colleges, is that a sufficient criterion so as to say that we have equality between the two schools? A. I may say that I don’t think this statement re fers to or is intended to refer to the matter of accred itation. Q. I don’t think so but I am asking you in con nection with that. (R. p. 488) A. Of course, this is a debatable point — what you want your high schools to do — but I think it is quite clear that if in a given community, such as Arlington, white children may and do attend a high school “prepares students to meet the various standards of all the private colleges in the United States,” and negro children attend a high school which does not so prepare them, then there is inequality. I don’t think the statement is relevant in the issue in volved in this case. It is a general debatable point. The question, as I see it, is whether there is inequality for the youngsters in any particular community, if that answers your question. Q. And in view of your examination and study of I 136 1 these reports, what is your conclusion as to the inequal ity of opportunity offered to the two types of children that we have under consideration? A. You mean in terms of all the factors considered? Q. Yes. A. There is no question whatever in. my mind that, considering all factors, the students at Hoffman-Bos- ton School are afforded a far inferior opportunity for educational development than that afforded pupils in the Washington and Lee High School. Q. I am trying to wind up as quickly as I can now. I do want to develop on more problem. (R. p. 469) There has been some question raised, by vitrue of the Dawson report, which seems to be based upon this — that because of the size of the school, the number of pupils attending, no harm is done to the child who has to attend the smaller school, the negro school in this case, because of the fact that any given course in not given to him in any particular sequence or in consecutive years or in other words, that no harm is done in alternating courses or in giv ing them out of sequence. Will you advise the Court whether that is a good academic practice or not? It has been called to my attention that I should say, when those courses are alternated they are not given every year. They may be given in alternate years as well as alternate in subject-matter. Is that an advant age or disadvantage to the student? A. In my opinion, that is a decided disadvantage. Q. Why? A. I would like to amplify that. We all recognize under normal circumstances, where the question of racial segretation is not involved, that the small high school for economic and common sense purposes simp [ 137 3 ly cant offer the kind of program and extent, scope and freguency that can be offered in a larger high school and that is why we are abandoning these small high schools and getting consolidated high schools. 1 mean that is just a common sense viewpoint. But even there, it is recognized that — what I am saying is that it is common practice in very small high schools to have this rotation of courses and offering courses every two or three years and we can understand why that is nec essary, when the factor of race is not involved, but that is a disadvantage for several reasons and three occur to me. One: Many of the fields of knowledge as organized in the curriculum must be organized on a sequential basis. One must have algebra 1 before one has algebra 2, obviously. One must have algebra before one has trigonometry. One must have beginning French, com monly French 1, before he has French 2. So that for many subjects — not all but many — it is essential that we have this sequence which cannot be provided under this cycle. For example, in 1947, the report I made shows that in Spanish — it offers an excellent example of the thing I am talking about. I will quote: “At the Hoffman-Bos- ton School all the pupils in 9B, 10A, 11 A, 11B, 12A and 12B are taught throughout in the same classes.” In die first semester 1947-48, all the pupils in these seven half grades took exactly the same schedule and were taught in general the same content, so that we had during the first hour all the high school students taking Spanish. Clearly the person has to have begin ning Spanish before he has his second semester or (R. p. 471) third semester Spanish which isn’t possible in this particular organization. The second thing is that 1 138 1 our subjects are organized on the basis of the matura tion level of students. I will explain that. It is a pyscho- logical term. B y M r . D ouglas: Q. How do- you spell it? A. M-a-t-u-r-a-t-i-o-n. The layman would say “level of maturity” but the psychologist would say “matura tion level”. For example, as the child grows older phy sically lie can comprehend material of increasing dif ficulty — comprehend increasingly difficult material, so that a child can learn addition before he is ment ally able to- comprehend trigonometry. The high school curriculum is based, in part, on this concept of matura tion level so that where our 9th grade youngster might normally understand beginning algebra, lie has not yet normally and typically developed enough mentally to understand trigonometry, so that goes through all of our subjects. The second objection to this offering of courses in two or three-year cycles raises the question of what to do with the failing student. What happens when a student fails one of these subjects on a three-year cycle and then lie has to wait three years to make the sub ject up? I think it is fair to conclude that in any school (R. p. 472) which has these cycles there is a tendency to lower standards and not fail students because fail ing students bring up too many curriculum problems. I am not saying that that is true in this instance, al though it would be of great interest to learn the inci dence of failure in these two schools. I think certainly there would be that tendency. The third objection would be in the matter of transfer [ 139 1 students, both those transferring from within the system to outside or those coming from outside the system inside, that is, here is a family which moves in and they have a 10th grade youngster who has been, let us say, moved from Washington and who has had the nor mal curriculum. Granted that normally his curriculum would not fit exactly since he comes from another school system but certainly he would be greatly handicapped if he finds that he has had the subject they have taken this year and he has to wait two years or maybe three to get the subject he needs. Similarly, with a student trans- fering outside the community — and I am sure we must look at this as a whole in terms of the development of all these children — would be subject to the same dif ficulties. What I have attempted to point out here is the difficulty is there, despite the fact that whenever we have a small school organization it is necessary, but it does set up inequality clearly. Q. And there does exist, so far as these two schools (R. p. 473) are concerned, that is, they have the cycle as you suggest necessarily at the present time at the Hoffman-Boston School and that same condition does not exist at Washington and Lee? A. Yes. # * # # # ( R. p. 474) Q. Then finally, Doctor, in your last sec tion of your report you have apparently formed some opinions and I want to find out if these are valid: Con sidering the type of education that is offered at Hoff man-Boston as compared with that offered at Washing ton and Lee, what importance or effect does it have upon the ability of the school to retain its membership, its student population, and encourage them not only to [ 1 4 0 1 stay throughout the entire period offering at Arlington but to increase their education afterwards? In other words, I think you referred to it as holding power. Considering the differences, will you compare what normally is to be expected and, as shown from your studies, has happended so far as the two schools are concerned? A. Well, as a generalization, the better schools tend to hold pupils longer than poorer schools. At the time that I made that — 1947-48 or 1946-47, I think (R. p. 475) the last time the data were available in my study, my report, I noted a great dropping out of children at high school level. It shows a peculiar thing which I can’t account for too well, namely, that at the 18-year level, if we take out these several hundred — I don’t know how many there are but the school offi cials should know exactly how many of these Arlington people are included in the statistics; if we take them out we find the startling factor that there are propor tionately more 18-year old negroes in school than white and I just doubt that but I don’t have any statistics to show it. Q. Normally and in normal times I believe you stated that the better the school the greater the chances are that the child will continue his education? A. I think that is a fair generalization. Q. What is the effect upon the school and upon the community in general of the children dropping out before they have completed this minimum educa tion that is offered by the Public School System? A. Well, that would take a long lecture and I will simply summarize by ■— ■ Q. As you have tried to put it here? A. It results in under-exploitation of the natural [ 141 ] resources of the country, the natural resource in this case being the human resources because children who (R. p. 476) are under-educated and under-trained are not effective in their vocational life. # # # # # Q. Your answer was that it did have an adverse effect? A. I will try to, in brief, say that because the stu dent is under-trained he is likely to get into a voca tion which is below his normal level of performance. He is likely to be among the first to be unemployed (R. p. 477) and therefore, to go into areas of delin quency and other anti-social behavior. & # # & # C ross E xam ination B y M r . D ouglas: # * * # fc (R. p. 482) Q. And I believe you testified that courses should be made available whether any stu dents had indicated their desire to participate or not? A. Yes. * * * # * (R. p. 488) Q. That she was denied equality be cause of an existing policy of racial discrimination. As a school administrator, would you advocate em ploying a faculty and organizing a school for the sum mer quarter at Hoffman-Boston where no student had indicated his desire to gain instruction in such a quarter or session? [ 142 1 A. Yes. May i extend that? Q. If you feel it is necessary to qaulify your an swer. A. I said under the circumstances as they exist in Arlington County, the answer would be yes. Q. And would you draw from the failure of the School Board to organize such a school under those circumstances an inference that racial discrimination was intended by that failure? (R. p. 484) A. It would be very difficult for me. Attorney, to say what was intended. I know some of the men on this Board and I wouldn’t want to say about the intention. I would say, however, that the result is discrimination. Q. What would you do, getting back to the prac tical level — have the teachers go over there and sit in their rooms, hoping that they will get a customer, even though no customer had indicated when he was invit ed to indicate that he wanted to buy what they had to sell? A. That is right. Q. About this cadet corps, how many students were in tire senior high school last year? A. That is in the record. I will look. Which do you want? For which year? Q. ’47-’48 or ’48-’49. A. I think I have it. Which grades do you want? Q. If you will look at page 4, the number is given as 48 for that year and 18 for the preceding year and 12 for the year preceding that. A. In grades 10 to 12, that is right. Q. As an administrator, what would you do about [ 143 ] organizing a cadet corps among the boys and the girls, respectively, in that group? A. I wonder if I may comment on that question? (R. p. 485) Q. Perhaps if I withdraw the question you won’t have to comment on it. Would you advocate the organization of a cadet corps for the boys and a cadet corps for the girls in a group of 9 students such as was the case in 1946-47? A. Yes. Nov/ I want to explain that, if I may. Q. Go right ahead. A. Of course, that is a ridiculous answer. Q. I didn’t say so. A. I said so. As an educator, I say it is rediculous but it is what this system of segregation brings us to. As I understand it, in our system we must offer the same opportunity for the negro child as for the white. Therefore, we are in the ridiculous position, it seems to me, of subscribing to something which is educa tionally unsound but which we are bound to do in ac cordance with the legal requirements. Q. You have criticized the Hoffman-Boston or the public authority here in that Hoffman-Boston did not in those years have a competitive football team. A. I did not criticize. I simply mentioned that as an objective fact. Q. The fact that there was not a football team in any of those three years. Do you regard that fact as evidence from which you infer discrimination on ac count of race? A. Yes. (R. p. 486) Q. Do you draw the same inference from the failure of that school to maintain a band or an orchestra when there were twelve students in the school body? E 1 4 4 1 A. Yes. a * * * * Q. Not quite. There is a little field at the back where the girls play softball but it doesn’t amount to much. Do you regard interscholastic competitive ath letics as any part of a good school system? A. Yes, I think that is a desirable part. Q. Suppose it were a fact that the existence of (R. p. 487) those activities deprived the average stu dent of access to play fields because those play fields were pre-empted by tire specialists on the teams, would you still regard that as being an unmixed blessing for the school that has them? A. I don’t think I would accept your premise. I would think that would constitute bad school admin istration. I don’t believe that that is a necessary con sequence of interscholastic atheltics in any particular school since normally the practice for the interscho lastic atheltics is after the regular school day. Q. Do you regard the vocational aspects of high school competitive athletics as being an asset or a li ability of the athletics program? A. Well, in terms of the total program, not too im portant but for the individual boy it may be tremend ously important. Q. May it not likewise be a great liability? A. I don’t think so, not necessarily. # * # # # (R. p. 490) Q. Can you assign any reason why the gymnasium or auditorium at Hoffman-Boston can not be used in bad weather for the conduct of those [ 145 ] elasses that are required to be given as a part of that course? A. Well, of course, it can be used and I assume it is used for physical education activities. You mention ed a while ago some of the trend in education and certianly one of them is to get away from the calls- thenic and exercise sort of thing into the functional kind of games which these high school youngsters en joy and it would not be possible in the present struct ure and present facility to play the so-called ballgames. * # # # # (R. p. 491) Q. As an administrator, would you ad vocate the installation of a guidance counselor — is that what you call them? A. That is one name for them. Q. In a high school of twelve students? A. If such a specialized counselor is available to white children in the community, I think that one must be made available for the negro children, so the an swer would be yes, under the conditions existing in Arlington County. Q And a failure to have such a person you would consider evidence of discrimination? A. Yes. Q. Isn’t it a fact that in dealing with such small numbers of students the teachers are in a far better- position to afford that guidance than is a counsellor who sees them only when called upon to see them? A. Not necessarily. Q. You say not necessarily? Do you mean that may be true? A. It depends on the training of the teachers. This matter of guidance takes certain specialized training [ 148 1 which your guidance counsel has. It is just as if — I won’t use the example. Q. So that your answer is what? (R. p. 492) A. As indicated. Q. Isn’t that person best qualified to counsel an other person who best knows the problems of that other person? A. That is only half of the story. He ought to also have certain technical proficiency. That is why a pa rent who knows his child is not always, although he frequently is, the best person to offer advice to the child. Q, How long has this business of guidance counsel lor been going on in public schools? A. The public schools of Arlington? Q. I mean, generally in the jargon, the technique of the profession? A. I think that movement gained momentum dur ing the early twenties in American schools generally. I don’t know a thing in the world about the Arlington practice, when it began. # # ■ # # * (R. p. 494) Q. In evaluating the library content about which you have testified, you made no examina tion of the books themselves as to their copyright dates or otherwise as to their contents, did you? A. Yes, I did — not every book, you understand, but a general sampling. Q. Can you make any general observation as to the relative newness of the books in the two libraries, as to their coypright dates? A. I can as of 1947-48. Q. You say you cannot? [ 147 ] A. I say I can. Q. What would you have to say as to that? A. That in general the holdings at the Washington ( R. p. 495) and Lee library were well diversified and many of them have very recent copyright dates. At the Hoffman-Boston School the books were not at that time cataloged but, in looking at the actual books themselves, very few of them — the general picture was very old books, many of which had been donated by other libraries and which had very old dates of publication. I will refer to my report. Q. I will agree with you that that is correct. a # # * * Q. I will concede everything that you are saying about the books of that vintage being indicated. Do you know whether those books have all been replaced by new books since that time? A. I don’t know . Q. If they had been replaced by new books, would that have any bearing on your opinion as to the relative merits of the two libraries? A. I will say this, that it would be helpful but it would still not be equal, according to the statistics (R. p. 496) presented here in the Dawson report. Q. Which is the higher requirement or set of re quirements for accreditation — those prescribed by the State or those prescribed by the Southern Conference? A, In general, and certainly by reputation, the standards of the Regional Accrediting Association, Southern Association, are higher than those of the State. Now, we may, upon analysis in particular states, find certain items which are more stringent than those of I 1 4 8 1 the Southern Association hut that generalization is cer tainly true. * # # * # (R. p. 497) Q. On that question of salaries, Dr. Jenkins, I believe you said that the salary scale of sal aries paid to the white and colored teachers was ident ical, didn’t you? A. That is right. Q. And that the median or, as I could call it, the average, is higher among the whites because they had had longer service than the average colored? A. Well, either that or training, whatever the fact ors are that enter. I think the differential is largely a matter of experience. & # O # (R. p. 498) Q. And I believe you cited the schedule of increases which accrued from year to year in the salary scale of teachers based on their increasing ex perience as conclusive evidence, perhaps, that the greater the experience of the teacher the more val uable that teacher becomes? Is that true? A. I concluded that was conclusive evidence that that is what the School Board thought. Q. You don’t agree with that? A. I agree with that within limits. I indicated this morning that you might get teachers who get in a rut and get too old to teach but, as a generalization, I think that would apply to teachers as well as to at torneys, that with the amount of experience gained the individual becomes more proficient in his profes sion up to a certain point. # # # # # I 149 ] (R. p. 500) Q. And do you entertain the opinion that all courses ought to be offered in all of these sub jects without regard to demands by qualified students? A. If they are available to white students, yes. Q- Do you entertain the opinion that it is the duty of the School Board or the public authorities to main tain teachers in rooms adequate for instruction in those subjects and with facilities necessary to teach them, whether there is any demonstrated demand for the subjects or not? A. Yes. It may become very expensive. Q. And do you draw from the failure of the public authorities to maintain such facilities for which no request has been made the inference that there is ra cial discrimination? A. Yes. * * * * # R ed irec t E xam ination B y M r . R a n so m : Q. Doctor, is it a general practice among admin istrative officials of school systems to wait until some student comes around and asks them to install a par ticular course in the school or is the contrary true, (R. p. 501)that the administrator determines that there is a community need for a specific type of instruction and makes the course available to the student? A. I believe it is the common practice for the school authorities, either as authorities or delegating that to curriculum committees of teachers or other people in the community, to establish the curriculum [ 150 1 and not to wait for individual students to ask for partic ular courses. # # * # # EDWARD B. HENDERSON D ir e c t E xam ination (R . p. 5 0 2 ) B y M r . H i l l : Q. Will you state your name, occupation and ad dress to the Court? A. Edward B. Henderson; I am head of the Depart ment of Health, Physical Education and Safety, Public Schools, Washington, D. C. I live in Falls Church, Virginia. Q. Dr. Henderson, how long have you held your present position? A. As head of the department, about twenty-five years. Q. What professional degrees do you have? A. Well, I have an A. B. from Howard University, Master of Arts, Physical Education, Columbia Univer sity, and have done other studies but those are the (R. p. 503) two degrees that I have. Q. I understand you to say you have been head of the Department of Physical Education over twenty years. Prior to that what were you doing? A. Teaching physical education since 1904. Q- And that teaching experience was in what type of school? A. Except for the first year, and then part-time, in senior high schools. t 1 5 1 3 Q. Have you written any work in your field or written any articles in your field, Doctor? A. I have written editorials quite frequently for the Journal of Health, Physical Education and Recre ation, and for a number of other publications. One book, which is in the course of revision now, is The Negro in Sports. Q. Do you belong to any national association re lating to your field of activity? A. I served on the joint Army and Navy Welfare Committte during the war, the American Physical Fitness Committee. I served on the National Commit tee of the American Association of Health, Physical Education and Recreation. I have headed a number of official organizations in athletics and have been mem ber of a number of societies in the field of physical education and recreation. (R. p. 504) M r . H i l l : I will tender Dr. Hen derson as an expert in physical education. T he C o u r t : Do you desire to cross-exam ine? M r . D ouglas: N o, not as far as I am able to forsee now. T he C o u r t : L e t him b e adm itted as such. * # # ’ # # B y M r . H i l l : Q. Dr. Henderson, did you accompany us when we made an inspection of the Hoffman-Boston School and the Washington and Lee School, on August 20th of this year? A. Yes. [ 152 1 Q. The time we took several photographs and what not? A, Yes. Q. Have you made any previous visits to either or both of those schools? A. On one occasion I was there at Hoffman-Bos ton. I think I talked to a group there but not during its normal classrooms, and I drive by frequently the Washington and Lee High School. (R. p. 505) Q. From your observation on those particular days of the facilities available for physical education at both the Washington and Lee High School and the Hoffman-Boston High School, can you give us an opinion as to whether or not the facilities at the two schools are equal or at one they are superior or inferior to the other and, if so, please state which school. A. Well, in general, the facilities for physical edu cation, as I conceive it, at Hoffman-Boston School are decidedly inferior to the facilities offered the children at Washington and Lee. Q. With respect to a physical education in itself, aside from the competitive sports, were the facilities at Hoffman-Boston comparable to those at Washington and Lee? A. No. Q. From your observation in respect to those schools, did you note whether or not they had showers at one or both schools? A. There were showers serving both gymnasia or the gymnasia at the Washington and Lee but I didn’t observe any showers related to what is purported to be the semi-auditorium-gymnasium at Hoffman—Bos ton School. [ 153 ] Q. Are showers essential in a secondary school or I should say, do they have any educational value? A. Most programs of physical education and health (R. p. 506) in secondary schools are considered to be very insufficient unless there is opportunity for dress ing for physical education classes in uniforms, follow ing them with baths. In fact, in many of our schools we consider the bath very essential as an educational adjunct to physical education. Q. Would the fact that one school had showers and the other one did not have showers in itself be an element of inferiority so far as the school was con cerned? A. Decidedly so, in my opinion. Q. With respect to competitive sports, do they have any educational value on the secondary school level? A. Competitive athletics have become in recent years an integral part of the physical educational pro gram in most secondary schools from the point of view of health, increased physical vigor, character training particularly, and generally fitting the boy to meet the opportunities of American citizenship and life. Q. Does the fact that competitive sports are pro vided at one school and not provided at the other be come an element of inferiority between the two schools? A. I should think so, yes, in that in one school it tends to hold pupils in school probably longer and at tracts people to the school. We have found in our school systems, where there are no athletics, boys tend not to stay in school so long, and tend to go to school where (R. p. 507) is provided an opportunity for competi tive sports. Q. My question sort of assumes that there were com [ 154 1 petitive sports at Washington and Lee. From your ob servation have you seen or have you actually observed pupils of Washington and Lee being trained in various sports and, if so, will you state some of the sports that you have observed at Washington and Lee? A. Practically all the outdoor seasonal sports be cause I drive that way frequently to and from home. [ can’t say about the indoor sports only by reputation be cause I am in a system where the boys frequently play the boys of Washington and Lee at basketball, but I have seen the girls activities, such as archery; I have seen track in its various ramifications, jumping, shot throwing, and I have seen football practice and I have seen baseball at Washington and Lee. Q. And you have observed a basketball court within the interior of Washington and Lee? Is that right? A. Yes. Q. Does available play space or available space as such, undeveloped, have any real significance so far as eductional programs are concerned for schools? A. It has some. It furnishes opportunity for what we call free play or general moving about in activity and might have some advantages if there are shade trees ( R. p. 508) around and grass but not a regular physical education program. It doesn’t afford that opportunity per se. Q. That is what I mean. To a regular physical ed ucation program, does it have any particular advantage? A. Only as space advantage is all. C ross E xam ination B y Mr . D ouglas: Q. Dr. Henderson, were you aware that there was [ 155 1 no course in physical education given to the students of the 11th and 12th grade in the Washington and Lee High School? A. Not before I heard it stated here. Q. Were you aware that all students of the Hoffman - Boston High School are given a course, which is requir ed, and that they are taught by an accredited teacher in that subject? A. I have heard it mentioned that they were given calisthenics and some activity purporting to be physi cal education. Q. Assuming those two sets of facts to be true, would that affect your conclusion as to the comparative value of the courses offered in the two schools? A. No, for the reason that without any information to the contrary, I can’t conceive of a reason other than administrative, why the period between 9 and 3 o’clock (K. p. 509) at Washington and Lee couldn’t afford physi cal education activities for all the students, in view of my experience with student bodies almost as large in the City of Washington and with smaller facilities. (). Without dealing with the reasons why they are not given, if they are not given, if that course is not given to any substantial body of the students, those stu dents are getting a course inferior in that respect to the courses offered students who are getting that instruction? Isn’t that true? So that the reason why they are not given hasn’t anything to do with it, has it? A. Except that I can’t conceive of the Hoffman-Bos- ton students getting a course in physical education, such as required by the State of Virginia, with the lack of facilities that I know to be present there. # # * # # [ 1 5 6 3 (R. p. 510) Q. You spoke of competitive athletics as related to character building in the individual, Doctor. Were you speaking of the individual student as a whole or the individual students as a whole or only to those who become competitors A. I would say that all students who engage in game activity under good teaching supervision, who learn fair play and courteous treatment, one or the other, and the exchanges that go along, have the opportunity under leadership and guidance to learn those traits of character that we appreciate and think desirable in American cit izenship. Q. I think perhaps you misunderstood my question. My question was — if Armstrong High School of Wash ington has a splendid football team, playing competitive games with other high schools, does the exitence of that football team improve the character of the members of the team or the character of the members of the stu dent body? A. It improves the moral of the student body and also teaches them as spectators —■ improves the charact er of the boy who takes part in the game and also im proves character traits even in training for the game —- various types of traits. Q. If that activity deprived a great many students of play space, even though what you call free play (R. p. 511) space, you think the benefits of having a competitive team will outweight that disadvantage? A. May I suggest I can’t conceive of that for this reason, that most of our competitive athletic training periods and game periods are at the close of school, whereas most of the children have intra-mural activity and physical education within the school day in periods [ 157 I set aside for that by the administration and therefore the athletic program does not materially interfere with the normal physical education program. I might add that we are on a five-day week physical education pro gram. Two periods are in health and three in activity and we usually take one of the periods for intra-mural within the class period so those students actually get game experiences within their class period. # # # * # Q. And the game experience for the normal student is the thing that is of great value? A. It is. Q. And the more general that experience is enter tained or enjoyed by the student body, the greater is (R. p. 512) the benefit? Isn’t that true? A. To those who take part, yes. # # # * & ELLIS O. KNOX D ir e c t E xamination (R . p. 513) B y M r . R o bin son : Q. State your name. A. Ellis O. Knox. Q. Your age? A. Forty-nine. Q. Where do you reside, Dr. Knox? A. Washington, D. C. Q. What is your occupation? A. Professor of education. [ 158 3 B y M r . D ouglas: Q. Where? A. Howard University. B y M r . R o bin so n : Q. How long have you been at Howard University? A. Eighteen years. Q. What other positions, if any, have you occupied during the eighteen-year period that you have been connected with that institution? A. I was director or teacher training for the tea chers in the vocational work in the schools of Washing ton. I have engaged in surveys of different characters while in Washington. Those are the major types of positions. (R. p. 514) Q. What are your academic qualifica tions, Dr. Knox? A. I have an A. B. from the University of Cali fornia, and an A. M. from the University of Southern California, and a Ph. D. from the University of South ern California. Q. Over what period of time have you been en gaged in the field of education? A. Thirty years. Q. Prior to the time that you went to Howard University, did you also engage in teaching on the high school level? A. Yes. Q. In what department or school of Howard Uni versity are you now teaching? A. The department of education. O. Is that in the liberal arts school or in some other school. [ 159 ] A. The College of Liberal Arts. Q. Then, Dr. Knox, did you have any special group or groups of pupils whom you teach there at that in stitution? A. Yes, those who are preparing largely for sec ondary school teaching, those who are preparing for — Q. To teach in high schools? A. To teach in high schools. Q. What publication, if any, Doctor, have you made? A. Several publications over a period of years. (R. p. 515) Would you care for titles? Q. You might. A. I have made a study dealing with the philo sophy underlying the trend in the industrial and vo cational education, studies dealing with tire research among negroes and incident to negroes, studies deal ing with changes in curricula patterns. Q. What profesional societies, if any, are you a member of? A, National Education Association, National So ciety of Philosophers of Education, the American As sociation of University Professors. Q. Do you also belong to the American Teacher.1 Association? A. Yes. M r . R o bin son : If Your Honor please, we should like to tender Dr. Knox as an expert for puposes of testifying in this case. M r . D ouglas : We agree. T he C o u rt : Let him be so admitted. [ 1 8 0 ] B y Mr. R o bin son : Q, Have you had occassion to make a study of the Washington and Lee High School and the Hoffman- Boston High School in Arlington County, Virginia, on the basis of data supplied to you for that purpose and (R. p. 516) on the basis of personal observation? A.. I have perused the data which was supplied to me and made a very hasty observation of Hoffman- Boston. Q. Will you state for the information of the Court the data and information you have examined for this particular purpose? A. Yes. i examined a study prepared by Dr. Jen kins and the study prepared by Dr. Dawson — those two — all the data pertaining thereto. Q. Did you consider, Dr. Knox, the portion of the Jenkins survey and also the portion of the Dawson survey relative to the teaching experience of teachers in the Washington and Lee and Hoffman-Boston High Schools? Did you make an examination of that data? A. Yes. Q. On the basis of the information contained in these two reports, and particularly the information which was set forth in Table No. 11 on page 27 of the Dawson report, are you able to express an opin ion as to whether or not the teachers who are at the Hoffman-Boston High School are equal or are unequal to those at the Washington and Lee High School in point of teaching experience, if you are going to de fine teaching experience as it is defined in in this table on page 27, that is, if you mean number of years (R. p. 517) of experience, the median teacher at Wash ington and Lee has a greater number of years of ex [ 161 1 perience than the median teacher at Hoffman-Boston. Q. Will you state for the information of the Court what if any, value there is to a pupil in having an experienced teacher? A, Yes, I think there is great value in having an experienced teacher. I think, beyond a shadow of doubt, we are concerned with developmental programs of the youth. A teacher who has been in a community and has been able to study that environment and gained varied experiences, at different times under different conditions, is much better qualified to give instruction to children in that community so that they may adjust and adapt themselves to varied experiences and re quirements than a teacher who has had less broad or limited opportunity to become familiar with that community. Q. Dr. Knox, did you consider the portion of these reports devoted to a consideration of salaries, respect ively, paid to teachers in the Washington and Lee and Hoffman-Boston High Schools? A. Yes, casually. Q. On the basis of your examination of this data, considering particularly the data contained in Table No. 8 on page 22 of the Dawson report, will you state your opinion or conclusion with respect to the relat ive qualifications of teachers in those two schools, (R. p. 518) based upon that information? A. If I address myself to the data for the year 1948-49 for each school — and I suspect the same will hold true for the previous years — I find, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the teachers of Washington and Lee received — or a greater percentage of teachers — I will say it this way: A greater percentage of teachers [ 162 ] of Washington and Lee received advances in salaries than is the case in Hoffman-Boston. Q. How do the teachers of those schools compare in that school session in terms of median salary? A. Washington and Lee is more favorable. » o o * *> (R. p. 520) Q. Will you cite Dr. Knox, the con nection, if any, between the matter of qualification of a teacher and the matter of the salary paid to that teacher as a general consideration? A. In general, the profession of education, as else where, the better qualified demands the higher salary and receives the higher salary as a result of the de mand. * * * * * Q. Dr. Knox, did you have an occasion to ex amine the portion of these two reports having to do with the matter of the number of different subjects taught by teachers in the two schools under consid eration? A. I examined that. Q. On the basis of the information contained in these two reports, and particularly Table No. 14 on page 31 of the Dawson report, would you express your opinion as to whether or not the teaching staff and arrangement at the Hoffman-Boston High School is equal to or is unequal to the same at the Washington and Lee High School so far as concerns the matter (R. p. 521) of the number of different subjects taught by teachers? A. It is not the same. Do you want me to explain that? [ 163 ] Q. Please, A. I find six of eleven teachers, more than fifty per cent of the teachers at Hoffman-Boston, teaching five or more subjects. I find only two, for example, of the seventy-nine teachers at Washington and Lee who teach five or more different subjects. If I intepret this table correctly---- Q. Will you cite, Dr. Knox, the value or the im portance of the matter having a teacher teach or not teach a number of different unrelated, subjects? A. It is very desirable on the secondary level for a teacher to teach as far as possible, only related sub jects. Pratices differ. Some schools desire to have tea chers teach the same subject only, providing the school is large and has a sufficient number of teachers, but even in larger schools there seems to be a trend in the direction of having a teacher teach one or two different subjects so as to prevent what one might call the blight of specialization but in no instance would a teacher in a school where desirable practices obtain be required to teach more than two subjects for no other reason than on the college level and (R. p. 522) in the teacher training institutions she has a major and a minor and it is highly desirable that she be confined to teaching those subjects which she has prepared in collegiate work in the area of her major and minor rather than in the other fields. # # # * ft Q. Will you state, for the information of the Court, the value to any given school of the courses of instruc tion which are contained or which are offered at that school? A. Yes. The courses of instruction form the back [ 164 1 bone of your whole educational environmental pro gram — very important. Q. Will you state whether it is a better practice to have a large number of varied courses or a better pracitce to have a smaller number of courses of in struction in a given school? A. Very desirable to have a large number. Q. What are the advantages of a course offering which consists in a large number of varied courses? A. In summary, the outstanding advantage is that (R. p. 523) it affords the pupil a richer opportunity for broadened experiences. (R. p. 524) Q. Dr. Knox, I should like to call your attention to Table No. 6 which is set forth on page 9 of the Jenkins report. A. I have it. Q. And Table No. 36 which is set forth on page 65 of the Dawson report. A. I have it. Q. And ask you to state your opinion, on the basis of the information contained in the respective reports at the respective pages and in the respective tables which I have mentioned. A. My opinion is that it is very difficult to compare the curricula at the Hoffman-Boston and the Wash ington and Lee, not alone because of the great dis- (R. p. 525) parity in the numbers at the two schools but because of the fact that — well, in the Dawson report on page 65 I find a general diploma. I find in there no language at all. I have been informed, I might say, that during alternate years sometimes languages are given but the Hoffman-Boston does not impress me as being a complete curriculum. I see some sub- [ 1 6 5 I ieets there under a caption of “'General Diploma” but there is no such thing as an unified curriculum pat tern or technique for determining an unified curricu lum pattern which seems to have been employed other than, I might say, prevailing practice or precedent or else convenience, but when I go over to the Wash ington and Lee it certainly appears that there has been employed some very skillful and competent think ing in regard to the establishment of that curriculum. Take, for example the commercial diploma and the courses listed thereunder. They are grouped in terms of that which in education would certainly- effectuate in what one might call a very useful and practical and decidedly desirous commercial diploma. There seems to be an organization and a pattern of curricula which is absent in the case of the Hoffman-Boston for the reasons stated. Q. In the light of the information to which you have just referred, would you express your opinion as to which of these two curricula you would regard as superior to the other? 1 should like to- phrase my ques- (R. p. 526) tion this way: As to- whether or not the courses of instruction, on the basis of this information, offered at the Hoffman-Boston are equal to or unequal to- those which are offered at the Washington and Lee High School? A. Without doubt, the courses offered at the Hoff man-Boston School are inferior to those offered at the Washington and Lee for this basic reason, that we are concerned today on the high school level with students having opportunities which are more than in tellectual. Intellectual growth must be accompanied, supplemented and enhanced by physical growth, [ 166 1 emotional, moral, and the traditional subjects of Eng lish, social science, science, mathematics, make basic ally for what one might call intellectual growth, while if we go over to Washington and Lee we find courses down there such as dramatics and I find courses such commercial law, business correspondence, languages especially which 1 don’t find in the Hoffman-Boston list. (R. p. 527) Is it your conclusion with regard to the superiority of the curriculum offered at the Wash ington and Lee High School affected by the situation relative to instruction in vocational subjects at these two different schools, concerning which you have just- testified? A. Yes. I believe that every high school should afford vocational training — every high school. # & * * # (R. p. 529) Q. At this point let me ask you a few additional questions. A consideration of Table 37 of the Dawson report reveals that courses in speech are offered at the Washington and Lee High School which are not offered at the Hoffman-Boston High School. Will you state for the information of the Court the value of such a course to a high school pupil? A. Yes. Every high school pupil needs an oppor tunity for remedial experiences insofar as oral and, for that matter written expression of the English lan guage and a course in speech, without shadow of a doubt, is the best possible opportunity to give him an opportunity for remedial work, improvement and de velopment. Q. A further consideration of the tables reveals f 1 6 7 1 courses In journalism taught at Washington and Lee High School but not at Hoffman-Boston High School. Do courses in journalism have any value to a high school pupil? A. Yes. However, 1 want to be very well under stood. I am not going to place courses in journalism insofar as their essential character, in the same cate gory in which I would place courses in speech but I certainly think that my answer to the question, if I understood it, do courses in journalism, have value to the high school curriculum? — my answer to that question is yes. Q. Looking further at the table, Doctor, I see that (R. p. 530) the course in solid geometry is offered at Washington and Lee but not at Hoffman-Boston, Will you state for the information of the Court the value to a student of a course in solid geometry? A. Yes. Many of the students who are in the High School will later go into technical institutes. Those who do not go* to technical institutes but go even in to professional collegiate classes for advanced colleg iate classes can well profit from, and those in technical and somewhat professional courses will find it abso lutely imperative to have a foundation in solid geom etry or they will be impeded in their collegiate work and will be forced to take it on the collegiate level. I will grant though insofar as solid geometry it is one subject where in many high schools, large and small of the country, they fall down but the desirable prac tice is certainly to afford solid geometry and a school which affords it is superior to that extent to a school which does not afford it. Q. Further reference to the tables shows that a [ 168 1 course in commercial arithmetic is offered at Wash ington and Lee but not at Hoffman-Boston. Does a course in commercial arithmetic have value to a stu dent and, if so, what value or values? A. I would characterize a course in commercial arithmetic as an elective. Those students who do not intend to pursue collegiate education and intend to (R. p. 531) go into any of the commercial fields will find it absolutely essential to pursue a course in com mercial arithmetic. Those who go into professions on the college level may not find it so essential but those who go into any type of college work of a general character could well afford to indulge in commercial arithmentic as an elective. By t h e C o u r t : Q. What is commercial arithmetic? A. More or less arithmetic which involves some of the rapid addition and rapid subtraction, division, mul tiplication, rapid methods of employing those funda mental concepts. B y M r . Robinson: Q. Looking further at the table, Dr. Knox, a course in general mathematics is offered at Washington and Lee but not at Hoffman-Boston. Will you state the value to a student of a course in general mathematics? A. I hesitate because I can answer that question only if I understand the administrative reasons for including a course in general mathematics at Wash ington and Lee and, to my mind, general mathematics would be an exploratory course and if we have stu dents who are more or less deficient or retarded ment t 1 6 9 1 ally, or for some other reason, then I would give him general mathematics for exploratory purposes. (R. p. 532) I think in any number of high school students you would find some who would need re medial work. If the course in general mathematics — and I am not familiar with it — at Washington and Lee is an exploratory course, then I certainly believe it has high value and any secondary school could well afford such course. If general mathematics at Wash ington and Lee, which I don’t believe is explained — if it has any other concept other than exploratory course, then I am unable to answer the question; I have no knowledge. Q. Dr. Knox, referring again to tire table, courses in economics, world history, economic geography and Latin-American history are offered at Washington and Lee but not at Hoffman-Boston. Will you state for the information of the Court the value to a pupil of having such courses in the curriculum? A. Yes. I think those courses are very essential. If you pardon the reference, since my major field of preparation was in the area of social studies, I would say that those of us who consider ourselves college teachers in the field of social studies, preparing high school teachers, definitely recommend that a high school teacher camiot possibly teach English — I beg your pardon — history, except that she is able, in her teaching of history, also to evidence a thorough know ledge of these courses. Now then, on the high school (R. p. 533) level we state that in order that those courses might have the fullest possible value, the tea chers should likewise afford an elective for those studies. In the areas of economic geography and Latin American [ 170 1 history our whole concept of social studies is so broad that we are concerned with not a narrow specializa tion but with broaden experience in the whole field of international as well as inter-community and inter state. They have great value insofar as broadening the experience of youth and giving us what we understand the fundamental concept of social studies is. Q. Again referring to the table, Dr, Knox, courses in Latin are taught at Washington and Lee but not at Hoffman-Boston. Will you explain the value to a pupil of courses in Latin being in the curriculum at tended by him? A. I think Latin could well be an elective. It is one subject I am not a specialist in — the classics — and not being a classist, I certainly know that I would be condemned by this answer, but it is a course which I think has value as an elective and could be well afforded for those students who expect to follow their high school work by collegiate work which would require a higher type of literary specialization. Q. Courses in commercial law, in business corres pondence and in bookkeeping are, according to the table, taught at Washington and Lee but not at Hoff man-Boston. Will you explain the values of those (R. p. 533a) courses to a pupil? A. Yes, Every high school pupil has to have op portunities for some elective and, depending upon his goals and his economic opportunities, it is very helpful if the child is able to elect courses in the field of business and if he prepares himself, even for tempo rary work — let us say going to make a little money before he goes into college, he can find himself greatly- helped by having elected such courses as those to which you referred. [ 171 1 Q. The table further reveals that a course in me chanical drawing is included in the curriculum in the Washington and Lee School but not in that of the HofFman-Boston School. Will you explain the value to a pupil of such a course? A. As an elective and perhaps dependent upon the guidance direction which the pupil has in the high school, I think mechanical drawing is certainly very, very essential. I cannot conceive of any number of students, boys especially, in any high school wherein about one in five due to his own talent and desires, does perhaps expect to go into a technical field or technical institute and pursue high school courses pre paratory thereto. For such a student mechanical draw ing would be quite essential. To others it would be a very wholesome elective. Further reference to the table shows that courses (R. p. 534) in fine arts and in art appreciation are offered at Washington and Lee but not Hoffman-Bos- ton. Do these courses have value to a pupil, and, if so, what values do they have? A. Yes, they have value because, as I stated be fore — if you will pardon the repetition — we are concerned on a high school level with developmental programs. We are not concerned with students com ing out and narrowly prepared by specializing in cer tain fields, and if one is going to have a develop mental program one must have an opportunity to en gage in his experiences in the products of art and the products of music and art appreciation; fine arts, and music appreciation are very definitely desirable for the type of programs which we want on the secondary level. [ 172 ] (R. p. 535) Q. The curriculum of Washington and Lee includes music appreciation, mixed chorus and glee club for boys and glee club for girls. In what way, if any, does the inclusion of these in the curricu lum at Washington and Lee High School become of value to the pupils attending that school? A. They afford a greater opportunity for cultural growth, for stimulation and appreciation of that which we call the cultural development of studies — very defi nitely. # e * * * (R. p. 536) Q. Dr. Knox, have you had occasion (R; p. 537) to inspect the facilities for vocational in struction for Hoffman-Boston High School? A. I have — very hurried observations. Q. During the course of your observation did you see there at Hoffman-Boston High School any facilities for instruction in automobille mechanics, in machine shop, in printing, in sheet metal or in woodwork? A. Absolutely no facilities for teaching automobile mechanics or for teaching printing and very inade quate material, most inadequate material. I would like to emphasize — most inadequate materials for machine shop, sheet metal and woodwork, based upon the very hurried visit which I made. I might say I asked questions in regard to the facilties for teaching those and, as a rule, in response to the question I was shown what was available. If that is all that is available, then it was most inadequate. Q. Did you have occasion, Dr. Knox, also to ob serve the photographs which have previously been of fered in evidence of the facilities of the machine shop, I 1 7 3 3 the sheet metal shop and the woodworking shop at the Washington and Lee High School? A. Yes, I saw those photographs. Q. Did you see at Hoffman-Boston High School any facilities the same or substantially similar in char acter for instruction in those areas? (R. p. 538) A. Definitely not. Q. On the basis of this information, will you state the value to a pupil attending the Washington and Lee High School of the courses in automobile mechanics, machine shop, printing, sheet metal and woodworking? A. Yes. The student at Washington and Lee is af forded an opportunity to gain experience in industrial art of a much more extensive character than the ex periences afforded the student at Hoffman-Boston, even if, as indicated by the listing here, they are given in a general shop, if machine shop, sheet metal, and woodworking are given under general shop, and I don’t understand — I can’t understand — how one shop could teach machine shop, sheet metal and woodwork ing in a general course and, by analogy, if you please, any more than I understand how one classroom could teach history, English and foreign languages because the very character of the instruction required for tea ching those courses is of such a nature that it almost prevents, to the extent of my knowledge, offering those courses in a sequential or even inter-related manner. I would have to know a great deal more about them. How long would this general shop extend — two years’ time or one years’ time or three semesters? I would have to know a lot more about that than I know at the present time. (R.p. 539) Q. Dr. Knox, the table further reveals courses in retail sales and in consumer buying are of [ 174 1 fered at Washington and Lee but not at Hoffman- Boston. What, if any, values do these courses have to the pupils who take them? A. Values insofar as experiences in the area of dis tributive education. We want our high school students, above all else, to be able to engage in an understand ing of selling and buying, salesmanship work; wheth er they actually become salesman or not, they at least are going to become husbands and wives, father and mothers, and they are better able to engage in an understanding of what we might call salesmanship and industrial and commercial relationships to our community. Q, Dr. Knox, further reference to the table shows that the curriculum of Washington and Lee includes cadets for boys and cadets for girls, cadet hands and an orchestra. What, if any, values do these have to the pupils attending that school? A. They have a very, very high disciplinary value as well and I am sure those who are better qualified than I am to speak would say they have values in the realm of health and phycial welfare as well as stim ulating in those boys and girls a certain type of ap preciation for our whole American way of life, to the extent to which a military atmosphere has importance in developing and stimulating a concept of pride in our (R. p. 540) American life and its existence. Q. Dr. Knox, the table further shows that at Wash ington and Lee, but not at Hoffman-Boston, a course in driver training is offered. Will you state the value to the pupil of such a course? A. I think every high school student — I don’t know what the law is in Virginia; you would have to tell me that, insofar as how old a student should be [ 1 7 5 3 before he is able to drive an automobile, but if it is 15 or 16 as in some states where I have lived, most high school students certainly have reached the legal age to drive a car and if they receive training of a directed character in how to drive a car, it is vastly superior to learning to drive a car in a non-directed manner. Q. Dr. Knox, will you express your opinion as to whether a curriculum which contains courses in speech, in journalism, solid geometry, commercial arithmetic, general mathematics, economics, world history, eco nomic geography, Latin-American history, Latin, com mercial law, business correspondence, bookkeeping, mechanical drawing, fine arts, art appreciation, com mercial art, music appreciation, mixed chorus, glee club for boys, glee club for girls, retail sales, consumer buy ing, cadets for boys, cadets for girls, cadet band, or chestra, driver training, automobile mechanics, print ing and other units of machine shop, sheet metal and (R. p. 541) woodworking in the fashion which you have previously testified is superior to or is not super ior to a curriculum which does not contain any of those courses? A. It is superior. # £ O # * Q. I should like to call your attention to pages 12 and 13 of the Jenkins report. A. I have it. Q. And to Table No. 40 on page 73 of the Dawson report, from which you will see that summer school is offered at Washington and Lee but not at Hoffman- Boslon. Will you explain the values, if any, of a sum [ 176 1 mer school session to the pupils who are enabled to take advantage of such a session? A. Yes. There is a well agreed upon concept among professional educators that we should extend educa tional opportunities, as far as possible, for twelve months during the year. Now then, there is, of course, an interpretation insofar as what the 11th of even the 10th month and 11th months might include but they definitely state that if a child has the environment of the school during the summer for its disciplinary, as well as its instructional value, that the school services (R. p. 542) will be of much greater value than a school wherein the child is denied any opportunity for instructional, recreational or developmental pro grams during the summer. Q. Have you, Dr. Knox, examined the portions of these reports having to do with the pupil activity pro gram at the Washington and Lee and at the Hoffman- Boston Schools? I call to your attention in this connec tion particularly, Table 80, page 15 of the Jenkins report and to Table No. 39 on page 72 of the Dawson re port. First, let me ask you to state for the information of the Court the value to a pupil of a well-rounded pupil activity program? A. I would prefer — and I suspect that I am cor rect — I hope that I am — to call those what are sometimes called extra-curricula programs and cer tainly extra-curricula programs allow the student to express himself in a manner which permits greater in dependence, greater possibility for expression, free from the classroom discipline, and it promotes, stimu lates and motivates individual and social growth to a greater extent than can possibly be done in the conven tional classroom. I 177 ] Q. On the information contained in these two tables, will you state whether the student activity pro gram at the Hoffman-Boston High School is equal to or is not equal to that at the Washington and Lee High (R. p. 543) School? A. I find a discrepancy insofar as the two tables to which you have referred me, Mr. Counsellor, i find in one table that at the Hoffman-Boston there were only three of these activity programs and I find in another table that — well it looks to me like twelve or fifteen down here but I would say that the extent to which any school---- Q. Let me ask you to do this, in view of the cir cumstances which you have mentioned: Will you ex press your opinion, on the basis of the information which is contained in Table 80, page 15 of the Jenkins report, first, and then also express your opinion as a separate opinion on the basis of the information con tained in Table 39 of the Dawson report? A. As a result of Table 8 of the Jenkins x'eport, the activity program of Washington and Lee is vastly super ior to the activity program at Hoffman-Boston the rep- restentations on page 72 of the Dawson report evidence a richer pattern of activity program offering at Wash ington and Lee than at Hoffman-Boston. I must say this, that to some extent numbers in these tell us very little and that is one reason I am hesitating. On the Jenkins report we have three. It is just com mon sense and I think anyone would agree that three activities couldn’t in any manner afford the number of experiences which this great list of actvities affords. (R. p. 544) I see quite an increased number in the Dawson report and, regardless of the fact that the num ber has been increased, when I check very quickly here [ 1 7 8 1 the activities afforded at Washington and Lee which are denied or are not afforded at Hoffman-Boston, the experiences are greater for the students at Washing ton and Lee. * « * * * Q. Will you state whether or not a variety of dif ferent pupil activities avaiable to a pupil has value and, if so, what value? A. Yes, because insofar as activity programs, we want the student to have an opportunity to sample as many possible different activities in a broad — shall I say horizontal set of experiences which we desire to afford him rather than a vertical or intensive exper ience in any one or two limited courses. Q. Did you have an occasion to examine the por tions of these reports relative to libraries at the Hoff man-Boston and at the Washington and Lee High Schools? (R. p. 545) A. Yes. Q. Calling your attention to the information set forth in Table No. 9 on page 18 of the Jenkins report to that which is set forth in Table No. 30 on page 55 of the Dawson report, will you express your opin ion as to whether or not the library at the Hoffman- Boston High School is equal to or unequal to that at the Washington and Lee High School in point of book holdings? A. In point of book holdings it is not equal. Q. What, if any, values result to the pupil from having a large collection of books and in having a collection of books on a large number of varied sub jects? A. That, of course, I can talk about for an hour. [ 179 1 Briefly summarizing from the American Library As sociation report, which is certainly accepted univer sally in America as elsewhere along this line, they state as a standard 2,000 volumes for even the smallest possible high school unit. All right. Now then, the reason therefor is that a child on the high school level must have a great number of opportunities for vicarious expenriences and the best way to afford vicarious ex periences is through the realm of broad literary read ing. Also, of course, for reference purposes, what is commonly called collateral reading. The greater the number of books, the greater the opportunity the tea cher will have to direct the student in library reading (R. p. 546) which will enable the child to learn how to think rather than what to think. Q. I should also like to direct your attention, Dr. Knox, to Table 10 on page 19 of the Jenkins report. A. I have it. Q. And to Appendix B, commencing on page 10. A. I don’t believe I have a copy of the appendix. What page again? Q. Page 10, Appendix B. They show the news papers, magazines and periodicals in the school library at Washington and Lee and at Hoffman-Boston. 1 should first like to ask you, Dr. Knox, as to whether the size and the variety of the library holding with respect to newspapers, magazines and periodicals have any value to the pupils attending a given school? A. Yes, they do. Q, Will you state what these values are? A. We can hardly conceive of a high school youth maturing properly and openly into adulthood without having an opportunity to profit by current literature and in his reading of these magazines he has an oppor [ 180 1 tunity to acquaint himself with that which is a part of his current every-day contemporary existence. Q. On the basis of the information contained in these two tables, would you express your opinion as (R. p. 547) to whether or not the library of the Hoff- man-Boston School is equal to or is not equal to the library at the Washington and Lee High School in point of newspapers, magazines and periodicals? A. In the light of what the report gives, both the Jenkins and the Dawson — well, the two libraries are not comparable. Washington and Lee is so superior that there is no — inclusive of the material on this Ap pendix on page 10, a list of magazines. I might say, Mr. Counsellor, if you will permit, that this was one portion of the monograph which I studied in detail and there are standards published by several asso ciations, not only the American Library Association, H. O. Wilson and the Office of Education, and the list of magazines and periodicals listed for Washington and Lee measures very favorably to the recommended list afforded by those educational agencies. The list at Hoff- man-Boston by comparison is sadly lacking. Q. Are you familiar with the portions of these re ports having to do with library facilities? A. Yes. Q. Are you in postion to express an opinion as to the quality or the inequality of the library facilities at the Hoffman-Boston Hgh School as compared with those at the Washington and Lee High School in point of such library facilities? I should like to call your atten- (R. p. 548) tion in this connection to Table 33 on page 45 of the Dawson report and also to Table 29 on page 54 of that report. On the basis of this or any other information which you may have relative to these f 181 1 libraries, including the photograph thereof which you have previously examined, would you express an opinion as to whether or not the library at the Hoffman-Bos- ton High School is equal to or is not equal to that at the Washington and Lee High School? A. I studied these tables dealing with the libraries as a result of what was afforded to me by counsel and I was very, very interested, to say the least. I find in the Jenkins report on page 18 two listings and a reference to books. I find in the Dawson study on page 45, dealing with the libraries, a description of the room. I found in the column dealing with arrange ments one large room, workroom. I point in Item 7 for both Hoffman-Boston and Washington and Lee to the characterization as very attractive, in spite of the fact that the Hoffman-Boston one large workroom has an indicator showing that it was also used as a Prin cipal’s office and for a library to also be used as a Prin cipal’s office and still be very atractive as a library arouses confusion in my mind. I will be sincere and I find myself unable to understand that comparison. I can’t conceive of the meaningfulness of that which is given on page 45 insofar as “adequately”. I can’t under- (R. p. 549) stand it. & # # # * (R. p. 553) Q. Dr. Knox, on yesterday you ex pressed some difficulty in the interpretation of certain of the data contained in the Dawson report. Will you explain to His Honor the nature and the source of your difficulties in this connection? A. Yes. If we refer again to pages 45 and 54 of the Dawson report, the tables on those pages, and turn to 45 first, in the Dawson report I see that insofar [ 1 8 2 3 as the Hoffman-Boston School, one large room is in dicated as a workroom. I am unable to determine the meaning of the arrangement in that large room since I understand that the room is also used for a Principal’s office and I think insofar as the Principal's office requiring a waiting room, requiring some space, at least, for the Principal’s conferences and to have a Principal’s office in the library confuse me insofar as (R. p. 554) item No. 7 which is “very attractive”. Also, in that column I see that the ceiling height is 13 feet. The Washington and Lee School I see a ceiling height of 20 feet and I am inclined to believe that a ceiling height of 13 feet, relatively low, because of the lack of ventilation facilities, because of the noise — I believe this room referred to is next to the gymnasium. Also, I think of the fact that insofar as that ceiling height, which would include again the Principal’s office, the waiting room for the Principal, a conference room — those conditions tend to make me a little confused in regard to the listing down there of “very attractive” as a libraiy. If we go over to page 54 very quickly, I find there that eight tables — I have understood from perusing the report that the Hoffman-Boston libraiy accomo dates all the students in that school. I believe you have in that building an elementary school as well as a junior and senior high school. From the tables, in cluded in this report, the enrollment of the junior-sen ior high school last year, if I am not mistaken, totalled 272. I don’t have the figure for the elementary school enrollment. I presume, of course, that it is larger than the junior high school enrollment and the senior high school enrollment or perhaps larger than both but [ 183 1 when I see eight chairs, eight tables, thirty-eight chairs, I am unable to understand in my own mind the extent to which those may prove adequate or inadequate un til I know the extent to which this particular room (R. p.555) services all the students at Hoffman-Bos- ton, both elementary as well as junior and senior high. My last statement in that instance would be that even if there were 270 junior and senior high school students alone serviced in that library room that the matter of tables and chairs might not prove adequate. One other item there: I notice that in the Washing ton and Lee there was definitely a newspaper rack. I am very much of the opinion that libraries should provide adequate facilities for newspapers for the ob vious reason. I checked to see what facilities were pro vided at Hoffman-Boston and I saw no rack or other mentioned made of other facilities for newspapers and their use in tire library. One final statement in regard to the catalog drawer. In my brief visits to the Hoffman-Boston I looked through that 24-card catalog drawer and I counted very carefully the number of drawers which were used for card catalog purposes and I found there only six drawers of the 24 which had any regard at present were being used at all for cataloging purposes. Q. Is it necessary, Dr. Knox, that waiting facilities be a part of or connected with the Principal’s offce of a senior high school? A. Certainly. Q. Do you consider the arrangement at Hoffman- (R. p. 556) Boston where the Principal’s office is lo cated in the workroom of the library, a desirable ar rangement for a high school? A. No. [ 184 1 Q. Will you state your reasons for your conclusions in that regard? A. The Principal’s office and library must, above all else, afford facilities for, shall we say, conferences frequently of a confidential character. A student’s busi ness with the Principal is of such a nature that quite frequently confidence is very, very desirable and nec essary and also the Principal must, above all else, have facilities for availing himself of records, reports, files, one might say, and perhaps some library or reading ma terial for the Principal in Inis office of a profesional nature or else of a community character. That is the reason for my statement. Q. Calling attention, Dr. Knox, to the Table No. 23 on page 45 of the Dawson report, examination will reveal that the library of the Washington and Lee High School is sound-proofed while the library at the Hoff- man-Boston High School is not. Would you consider sound-proofing of the library at the Hoffman-Bostou School necessary, in view of the library set up there, as you have testified? A. Again, by lack of understanding of the table enters into the consideration. Certainly if 270 junior and senior high school students are to use that library (R. p. 557) and the square feet in the library are 1617 square feet, we use a standard there and I think also the staandard of the Southern Association, as I found it in the appendix of Dr. Dawson’s report, would call for about 1625 square feet as a desirable minimum. Of course, the difference is very slight but the room would be very well filled. I arrived at that by taking standards which education had used, merely a room large enough for the largest class, and that is 45 stu dents in the Hoffman-Boston, plus 20, which is merely [ 1 8 5 ] the formula, and then 25 square feet per student and I find that room perhaps — 1617 square feet as against the desirable 1625 — the number of square feet there relatively negligible. However, with that number of square feet being occupied by junior and high school students, let alone the fact that perhaps the elementary school students at Hoffman-Boston also are required to use that library, certainly with that number of stu dents, every oppotunity for silence should be provided and, without any sound-proofing, at times it must be at least very noisy. Q. Dr. Knox, would your conclusions in these re gards be at all affected, assuming that the enrollment at the Hoffman-Boston High School was, for the ses sion 1948-49, a total of 148 in grades 8 to 12, inclusive, and a total of 225 pupils in grades 1 to 7, inclusive? A. It would. (R. p. 558) Q. Would you explain in what way? A. That total of students in grades 1 through 7 and 8 through 12 would be of such a character that the square feet as indicated in this column would be cer tainly for below the minimum, far below the desirable minimum. Q. Dr. Knox, on the basis of the information which is contained in the Jenkins report and in the Dawson report which you have examined, would you express your opinion as to whether or not the library facilities afforded pupils at the Hoffman-Boston School are equal to or unequal to those afforded pupils attending the Washington and Lee School? A. From my perusual of the material I definitely conclude that the library facilities of Hoffman-Boston are inferior to those of the library facilities at the Wash ington and Lee School. [ 186 1 Q. Dr. Knox, in the Dawson report there is in formation and data contained relative to the alter nation of courses at the Hoffman-Boston School. Would you express your opinion as to whether or not a cur riculum in which the courses are alternated is equal to or is unequal to a curriculum in which the courses are not alternated but rather the courses are taught each and every year, that is, each course is taught each year? A. You see, the matter exigency as well as admin istrative reasons for the alternating enter into a con- (R. p. 559) sideration there in my mind. Certainly the desirable practice is to have courses offered each year. If the alternation is merely because of the exi gency for one particular year or one particular semes ter and then there is a resumption of annual offering of courses that would be one thing but if there is a regular practice of alternating the courses over the period of two or three years as I found indicated in one of the studies, that is undersirable and contrary to the best practices along that line. Q. Will you state why you consider that practice undersirable or why it is considered undesirable? A. Well, alternation of courses requires at least a greater extension of teaching on the part of the faculty- members. If a teacher on the high school level tea ches certain courses one year and if another year she has to teach certain other courses, it makes for addi tional preparation and tends to prevent the teacher from becoming as thorough in any one or two courses which we ordinarily like to think that the high school teacher has specialized to teach, so it is definitely a greater burden for the teacher to have to teach differ ent courses from year to year as is the case where [ 1 8 7 1 courses are alternated; also, insofar as the student, if a student were to fail a course one year, it might be, depending upon the year- of school in which he finds himself when he fails a course, that the student would (R. p. 560) not be able to take that course again prior to the normal period of graduation and I think, be yond a shadow of doubt, finally, that it has been found where courses are alternated there is a tendency to level down instructions so as to prevent failing or maladjustment of students insofar as grade placement for the reason mentioned. Q. Does the maturation point become involved in sofar as a system of alternating courses is concerned? A. There is a question which is somewhat moot. We ordinarily like to think of an eighth grade level because it contributes to homogeneous grouping. We like for high school students of the same age, as far as possible, to be grouped in terms of age for social reasons. We are not only concerned with the intellect ual development of the high school child but we are concerned with his social development. Therefore, if there is a consideration for eighth grade grouping and if there is a homogeneity there, it is highly desirable. The maturation then of the child is certainly affected when he is forced, through the rotation of courses, to take courses with students who may be of different age level. It doesn’t necessarily follow that the rotation would bring about a readjustment of age levels but practice, I think, will show that only too frequently a rotation involves age differentials and also that the rotation would affect, in that case, a consideration (R. p. 561) of the maturation level. # ** [ 188 ] Q. Dr. Knox, did you have an occasion, in the course of your study of these two schools, to consider the matter of sites and exteriors and grounds, and that sort of thing, of the Washington and Lee and Hoff- man-Boston High Schools? A. Yes. I read what was included in the two studies presented to me. I observed the photographs which were presented and also I have visited the site of each (R. p. 562) of the schools. Q. Upon your visit at the Hoffman-Boston High School were you able to get any sort of a panoramic view from that school such as has been questioned about in the earlier testimony in this case? A. I did not? B y M r . R o bin son : Q. Did you make any effort to make such an ob servation from the Hoffman-Boston High School? A. Yes. Q. Will you express your opinion as to whether or not in the matter of site, in the matter of grounds and in the matter of exterior construction, the Hoffman- Boston School is equal to or is unequal to the Wash ington and Lee High School? A. My response includes a consideration of the fact that a site .must provide at least safety facilities, some health conditions, something of an aesthetic character, and insofar as those three items, safety — because the (R. p. 563) fact that Hoffman-Boston is not graded, there are no pavements on the site which I recall — I hope I am not in error there at Hoffman-Boston, — the mud and other elements during rainy and incle ment weather would, of course, detract from the safety [ 189 ] value. Insofar as aesthetic value, it cannot be com pared to a site such as I saw at Washington and Lee which has pavements and where there is definitely shrubery around the school, well tended and well kept up. Q. Dr. Knox, what, if any, values result to a school and to the instruction of pupils attending that school from the presence of an auditorium or auditorium fa cilities there in? A. The values are certainly very, very great be cause we expect high school students to be able to participate in shared opportunities and in order to a maximum opportunity of a shared character. Q. On the basis of the information which is con tained in the Jenkins and in the Dawson reports, will you express your opinion as to whether or not the au ditorium facilities which are contained at the Hoffman- Boston School are equal or are unequal to those which obtain at the Washington and Lee High School? A. On the basis of information I find in the reports, the auditorium at Hoffman-Boston is decidedly infer ior. Q. What values, if any, result from the presence (R. p. 564) of the gymnasium facilities in, a high school? By that I mean to the pupils attending that school? A. Values of hygienic as well as physical character as well as instructional character insofar as formal courses in the field of physical education. Q. On the basis of the information which you have considered, will you express your opinion as to wheth er or not the gymnasium facilities, if any, afforded at the Hoffman-Boston High School are equal to or are unequal to those which are afforded to pupils attend- [ 190 ] ing the Washington and Lee High School? A, From my observation of the Hoffman-Boston High School there is no gymnasium. There is an au ditorium room wherein chairs are sometimes removed and sometimes the opportunity for formal calisthenics is provided but, regardless of what it is called, I can not yield to the statement that that is a gymnasium. There is no equipment for gymnastic exercises and, since games are a part of — I understand from physical education experts — a part of our gymnasium facilities, there is absolutely no room for indoor games or for sporting activities of that character. Q. Please state your opinion as to whether or not as to this point the Hoffman-Boston is equal to or is unequal to the Washington and Lee High School? A. In the light of the information I have, it is un- (R. p. 565) equal. # # * # # (R. p. 568) Q. Dr. Knox, will you, as briefly and as concisely as you can, state the values which result to the pupils from the presence of infirmary facilities in a given high school? A. The provision of remedial health measures as well as preventive health measures. # # * # # O. Would you say that a school which contained infirmary facilities is equal? Would you say that a school which does not contain infirmary facilities is (R. p. 569) equal to or unequal to a school which does contain those facilities? A. Unequal. $ Sf «Fe E 191 1 Q. Dr. Knox, will you state whether or not there are values to be derived by a pupil attending a school in which there is a music studio, in which there is an art studio for purposes of instruction in those two courses? A. There are values, positive values. Q. On the basis of the information which you have, would you express your opinion as to whether or not the facilities for instruction in music at the Hoffman- Boston School are equal to or are unequal to those which are afforded at Washington and Lee High School? A. If I recall correctly, there are no specific class room provisions for a music room,, so-called, or an art room, providing instructional opportunities at the Hoff- man-Boston. I hope I do not err in my recollection. In that case, instruction in music and art could not be given as effectively in a school which does not have those rooms as in a school designed and constructed (R. p. 570) with definite rooms designed for teaching purposes. Q. Dr. Knox, on the basis of the information which you have examined, will you express your opinion as to whether or not the equipment at the Hoffman-Bos- ton School for instruction in courses in science, includ ing general science, chemistry, biology and physics, is equal to or is not equal to the equipment which is afforded for instruction of those courses at the Wash ington and Lee High School? A. The studies themselves — Dr. Jenkins’ study and Dr. Dawson’s study — both evidence the facilities for offering the course at Hoffman-Boston are not com parable to the facilities at Washington and Lee. Both studies evidence that. [ 192 ] Q. Will you state whether or not different sanitary facilities are necessary for pupils of elementary age and pupils of high school age, either junior or senior high school? A. Yes. There are definite standards established for elementary school students, which differ from those established for high school students insofar as sanitary facilities. Q. On the basis of the information which you have considered, will you express your opinion as to whether or not a school which contains a cafeteria is superior in this regard to a school which does not? A, A school with a cafeteria is certainly superior. (R. p. 571) Q. On the basis of the information which you have considered, would you state whether or not, in your opinion, the Hoffman-Boston School is equal to or is unequal to the Washington and Lee School in point of teachers’ restrooms? A. I think I found in the material which I studied that Hoffman-Boston has a restroom for women tea chers only, that the Washington and Lee provides a restroom for both men and women teachers. There is a principal there which is readily apparent. Q. Are there advantages to be derived from the presence of teachers’ restrooms in a given school which are not to be found in a school which does not con tain such facilities or which does not contain adequate facilities of that type? A. Building sttandards for high schools, without ex ception, to the best of my knowledge, require teachers’ restroooms. Q. Are there values to be derived by tire pupils at tending a given school from the presence in that school [ 193 1 of a separate band auditorium and a separate room for instruction in the course in bookkeeping, together with calculating devices avaailable in the latter class room? A. Insofar as instruction in band, standards for the room are of character that it is desirable to have a room specially designed for band instruction and per haps other classes might be included but, at least, (R. p. 572) specially designed for band instruction. In sofar as bookkeeping — am I correct? Q. That is correct. A. Insofar as bookkeeping, I don’t know of any special design for a room. To the best of my know ledge, there is none, but the facilities in the room for bookkeeping, for the lesson units or learning situations which arise would certainly require special equipment. Q. Are there values which are to be derived by a pupil from the presence of a distributive education room or office and a guidance office which otherwise would not be derived if those facilities were lacking. A. Insofar as distributive education office, that quesiton could receive a great deal of discussion. I don’t want to take a position in regard to that matter of distributive education but I will take a very posi tive position insofar as the guidance question. We con ceive of guidance and counselling to be so essential, so highly specialized and so very definitely a part of the present day high school student s program, that there should be very special facilities for guidance and counselling. Q. Calling your attention to the information con tained in the Jenkins survey and also in the Dawson survey relative to the accreditation status of the two E 194 1 high schools in question, will you first express the value to a given school and to the pupils attending such school of accreditation both by a state agency (R. p. 573) and by a regional agency. Q. Accreditation affords the school a knowledge of certain minimum standards of achievement. Accred itation by a State agency is usually lower that that of a regional agency and especially in the case where a State also is part of a regional agency, we find that membership in the regional agency is usually — the standards of the regional agencies are ususally higher than those of the State agency. I answered that question that way because in the matter of accrediting associations, we know that one of chief values from a recognition of minimal standards is to allow colleges and universities to avaluate the high school training of applicants for matriculation and we know that there are certain regional agencies throughout the United States which establish standards superior to those of the states within those several re gions. There is a case, however, of one s ta te ---- # # * * * (R. p. 574) Q. Will you state the value to pupils attending a given school of the fact that at that school honorary awards for scholarship might be conferred upon the pupils there? A. First, I think it has high value in building of morale on the part of the student; seondly, it has a vocational value insofar as providing a degree of hom ogeneity for students who have attained awards, group ing these together on certain occasions and benefit ing from the interrelationship of such grouping. It has [ 195 1 also some economic value. A student who receives a high school award quite frequently is able to gain a scholarship in a university more readily or even to secure employment during the summer or after school hours. Q. Dr. Knox, on the basis of the information which you have considered in connection with the Hoffman- Boston High School and the Washington and Lee High School, would you state your opinion as to whether or not the educational opportunities, advantages and faci lities afforded pupils attending the Hoffman-Boston School are equal to or are unequal to the educational op portunities, advantages and facilities which are afforded pupils attending the Washington and Lee High School? A. In view of the information which I have studied, the opportunities at Hoffman-Boston are inferior to the (R. p. 575) high school opportunities at Washington and Lee. « # # # « C ross E xamination B y M r . D ouglas: # # # # # (R. p. 579) Q. (The question was read as follows: Assuming that no one had requested such courses, would you, as an expert in the field of school admin istration, advocate those courses be set up at Hoff man-Boston School?) A. Yes. [ 1 9 6 1 B y M r . D ouglas: Q. Would you advocate that a teacher, specially certifiicated for those courses, be employed and placed at the teaching station in that school? A. Yes. Q. Would you advocate that rooms be provided for instruction in those courses? A. Certainly. Q. Would you advocate that those rooms be fur nished? (R. p. 580) A. Certainly. (R. p. 586) Q. If those were facts, would you still say that you would advocate setting up these different classrooms with these different teachers when they had no prospective students to teach, just to be able to say you offered the courses? A. When they had no prospective teachers to teach? Q. Prospective students to teach? A. I would have the teachers survey the demands and needs and if the demands and needs recjuiie that those courses be provided, they should be provided, Q. I agree with that entirely, but did you not say a few moments ago that you would provide those courses without regard to the demand? A. I did not. I said without regard to the students demands which is different from the demands as estab lished by a teacher or administrative committee study ing the needs. Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by student demand. I am conceiving you mean the students go there and say, “I want this course; I want that course.” That isn’t the way we establish a cur riculum. Q. How do you ordinarily establish the fact of f 197 1 (R. p. 587) whether or not there are going to be stu dents to take a course if you give it? How do you go about establishing that? A. We make a study. B y th e C o u r t : Q. Who makes the study? A. The administration and the faculty usually. The Superintendent and the Principals of the schools? A. Yes and, in the case of a small school, the Su perintendent and the Principal and in the case of a large school perhaps just the Principal but, of course, under the supervision of the Superintendent. B y M r . D ouglas: Q. Proceed. T he C o u r t : I interrupted. You said "We proceed to do so and so.” A. We make a study of the students population of previous years, a study of population trends in the com munity and a study of the potential needs of the stu dents who will matriculate in the future. B y M r . D ouglas: Q. Does that complete your answer? A It does. Q. Do you state that it is the duty of the Principal and the Superintendent, or other proper administra tive authorities, to make such a study in connection (R. p. 588) with curricula offerings? [ 198 1 A. To make or delegate the making of such a study to that faculty member — definitely. (R. p. 600) O It was testified here, Doctor, that if there were only eighteen students in a high school, including male and female students, a cadet corps ought to be maintained at that High School. Do you agree with that conclusion? A. As I remember the reference made to that ques tion, the response was in keeping with a concern for equalization of educational facilities for all youth in that community, in light of that concept, if equaliza tion of educational facilities are to be obtained, then a cadet corps must be established for the eighteen, twelve, t e n ---- Q. Or one? A, If equalization of educational opportunities are to be provided, it must be established, yea, verily, for one. Granted, it is absurb economically, but the whole cost of segregation is a luxury which economically is very unsound. Q. I cheerfully concede that. I think that is an uni form opinion but I am not speaking of the economic disadvantage. Is it actually practically possible to have a cadet corps with one or nine students? A. For all practical purposes it is absolutely ab surd but it is absolutely necessary if equality of oppor tunity is to be given. B y t h e C o u r t : Q, You mean it is logical. A. It is logical to have a cadet corps? (R. p, 601) Q. I mean you indicated it is logical if there is going to be segregation? [ 199 1 A. If there is going to be segregation it is logical to have a cadet corps for nine if a cadet corps is afford ed elsewhere. B y M r . D ouglas: Q. If there is only one student in the group, is it logical to have a choral society? A. That student must be afforded the same oppor tunities as any other student in that community and therefore it is logical if there is to be equality of op portunity insofar as choral study. Q. When you use the word “same” do you regard that word as synonomous with “identical”? A. No, I do not. I regard it to connote comparable opportunities for instructional growth and develop ment. Q. Do the administrative school officials of Arling ton County have the duty of determining whether it is practical to establish a cadet corps under the cir cumstances indicated in the questions? * # # # # (R. p. 802) A. They have the responsibility of es tablishing a cadet corps. Q. Do they have die responsibility of determining whether or not one should be established? A. They have the responsibility of establishing it for ten students, if it is established elsewhere for stu dents of a comparable age-grade level. Q. To pursue this question one step farther, I will ask you whether or not there is a course recognized in secondary education, known as the mixed chorus or instruction in mixed choral work? [ 2 0 0 1 A. Yes. Q. If there were only one student in the group, would the School Board have the duty of giving instruc tion in mixed chorus? A. You want my response as an educator now? Q. Yes, only as a professional man and an educa tor. A. As an educator, if there is only one student in the group, the responsibility would be to allow that (R. p. 603) student to engage in mixed choral instruc tion where the group classroom situation is establish ed. As an educator, that is the only educationally sound statement which I can possibly conceive of. Q. Doctor, in a very small school can guidance be afforded better by a specialist who comes to that ( that) school periodically for the purpose of guiding and counselling or by a teacher who is in constant touch with his or her group of students? A, At all times guidance can be afforded better by the specialist. Q, So that the pysehological theory of guidance possessed by the specialist and not possessed by the ordinary teacher is the important consideration? A. Very important. Q. What relative value do you place upon the fac tors of acquaintance with the child, acquaintance with the child’s home environment and with the child’s ec onomic background which the good teacher presum ably has? Do you accord those factors no weight? A. Not as much weight as I would accord the fac tors of a professional guidance specialist any more than insofar as those factors, the mother and father and aunt and uncle and grandparents have more know ledge in regard to the home economic situation and t 2 0 1 1 those things but they aren’t able to counsel as well in (R. p. 604) instructional matters as the teacher and, insofar as the child’s full development, the child specialist is much more competent by training, prep aration and experience. Q. I take it then it would make no difference or very little difference whether the counsellor had ever seen the patient or the child before? A. The counsellor would not give any diagnostic nor remedial measures upon the first — shall we say consultation — with the child of a firm character any more than a medical doctor would do so as a result of the first visitation. The two cases are quite compar able and the guidance counsellor in our field of pro fessional education is as highly specialized insofar as diagnosing and prescribing remedial measures as the medical official in his field of health. Q. That would depend upon how sick the patient was, wouldn’t it? A. Regardless of how sick the patient is, I think the medical doctor today is not concerned with the curing of the patent at this time but studying that which will prevent the patient — he is concerned with preventive medicine, as I understand it. I am not a medical man and I go to them as little as possible but I understand he is preventive rather than remedial. # # # # # (R. p. 609) Q. It is customary to find infirmary rooms in very small high schools of the size of Hoff- man-Boston? A. It is highly desirable to have a room for an in firmary in every high school, regardless of size. Q. Is there any reason why the student couldn’t [ 202 3 get the same or equal care in a small school if there was a nurse in atendance and if there were space a- vailable in the teachers’ restroom and accommodations in the restroom for the care of that student? (R. p. 610) A. If the teachers’ restroom were so equipped, then the teachers’ restroom would be an infirmary and it would not be a teachers restroom. I cannot conceive of a teachers’ restroom being equip ped to serve adequately as a teachers’ restroom and at the same time as an infirmary. Q. If it had a couch in it, it would do substantial!}’ the same for a child who needed that special service, wouldn’t it? A. I don’t agree. My answer is no. I will be very glad to elaborate. * & ** # . # R ed irec t E xamination (R . p. 611) B y M r . R obinson: Q. If the evidence should develop, Dr. Knox, that the library at Washington and Lee was not sound proofed, would that change your conclusion that the library facilities afforded pupils there are superior to those afforded the pupils at the Hoffman-Boston School? A. No, because I find more differentiation and some differentiation of greater importance than the sound-proofing as such. That one item you refer to, Counsellor, sound-proofing, would not change my con clusion. B y the Court: Q. Dr. Knox, let me ask you this: If you were the [ 203 1 administrator at Hoffman-Boston School, tell me just what you would do in ascertaining what courses should be included in its program or curriculum? A. I would request the Superintendent to allow me, or members of my faculty to whom I would delegate authority, to meet with the delegated faculty members or Principal of Washington and Lee and, togeather with the faculty of my school and school and those of Washington and Lee, we would study this whole community, not in regard to any racial elements or (R. p. 612) racial opportunities. Q. How would you study it? You wouldn’t go from house to house? A. We would call in the parents. Q. Parents of whom? A. Of the children. Q. Of the children in attendance at the school? A. And any other interested parents, such as those whom we contact through our parent-teachers organi zation, associations, our civic groups. Q. What would you do after you convened them? A. We would convene them and we would more or less discuss with the many questions in regard to the addition, deletion or changes of questions which we didn’t have ourselves sufficient information on. Per haps we would ask such question as sex education, let us say, a question which we believe is necesary for the parents of that community to express themselves on. Most of the question regarding courses would not require that because prevailing practice would tend to allow us to determine the expediency of those courses but there frequently arises a question of a character wherein we need to give consideration to all members of the community, the total community. I 204 1 Q. Would you ask their opinion, for instance, whether a course in Spanish should be given or is that (R. p. 613) too much in detail or too specific to be submitted to a group such as you mentioned? A. Under ordinary circumstances we would not ask about a course such as Spanish or those languages; we would merely, by working with the faculty at Wash ington and Lee and recognizing the values of Spanish in the curriculum — you asked me if I were Principal, We would make provisions at Hoffman-Boston for lan guage courses, comparable to those which they found to be succesfully given at Washington and Lee. Q. What I am trying to reach is at what point do logic and practice converge? Suppose, after you went through the procedure that you have outlined, you found no necessity for teaching Italian or Spanish, or what ever it might be, at the Hoffman-Boston School; would the establishment of such a course there be prompted by logic only, that is, on the ground, that there is such a course at Washington and Lee? A. Not at all. I cannot conceive, Your Honor, of a group of five colored students and five white students having any difference insofar as need for course in Italian or Russian or French. I can’t conceive of it. At my own institution, we offer courses in Italian — Howard University, which is predominantly negro. Q. I didn’t mean Italian particularly — French? (R. p. 614) A. I can’t conceive on a racial basis — I don’t find any difference insofar as race. Q. Would it be on a racial basis? Suppose you, as administrator, proceeded as you have outlined and found from this analysis of the community that there was no demand for French and so therefore, as an ad [ 205 1 ministrator, you did not put French in at the Hoffman- Boston School; Would you consider that would be an ommision due to racial reasons, only? A. No, your Honor. If I found, after my consulta tion with the curriculum construction committees, as we call them, of Washington and L e e ---- Q. Construction committees? A. Curriculum construction committees — they very definitely offer French there and are offering the French successfully and I find out that I have four or five students — I am saying five students — I believe that one out of every five high school students, regardless of their racial idenity, would profit by and themselves enjoy, I would s a y ---- Q. Leave the racial question out entirely. Suppose you were on a curriculum construction committee of Washington and Lee and you found no demand there for some higher mathematics and yet over in Hoffman- Boston School there was a demand for that, would you (11 p. 615) as an administrator, put it in Washington and Lee? A. I very definitely understand your question, Your Honor, but you are asking me question which in pro bability wouldn’t operate so that I am without exper ience. If I had five students at Washington and Lee and five at Hoffman-Boston, I for the most part will find out their interests, as well as their needs, are quite parallel. Q. You think the probabilities are that you wouldn’t meet any such experience as that? A. Thank you. Q. Tell me now about this specialization. What is it that keeps teachers from being driven to despair t 206 1 through monotony of teaching the same subject year after year? A. The fact that in professional education now we absolutely recommend, and most good administrators require, that teachers indulge in what we call teaching planning, in professional jargon and that she improve her lessons each and every day. If she taught the same course, she doesn’t teach the same material, she doesn’t teach the same course this year. She uses new material. She vitalizes, she changes, and she no longer teaches that other than what can be studied afresh each morn ing. Q. Is there much diversity or variety that you can put in teaching, for instance, arthmetic? A. A great deal. I am not a mathematician or an (R. p. 616) arithmetic specialist, but my colleagues who are have examples in such excellent universities as we find in New York with Columbia, which in our field they very definitely have given us, and teachers throughout the country, examples of highly vitalized instruction in the field of arithmetic. Q. If that same teacher teaches year after year, he would, if he kept abreast of the best thought, vary his method of presenting the subject? A. He would vary the content. The examples he would give the child in arithmetic this year might be examples which would have to do with understanding perhaps some of the matters in regard to our present national concept of our loans to Europe or something of that nature. Last year in an arithmetic problem it would be concerned with perhaps having to do with understanding the National Election, the presidential campaign. He just doesn’t give facts as such. He gives I 207 ] facts in relation to their value in the child’s every-day life at the time the child is living each and every day in the successive years that he is within the educational institution. # . # # # * JULIUS BREVARD Direct Examination (R. p. 617) B y M r . M a r t in : Q. What is your name and age? A. Julius Brevard. Q. Your age? A. Fifteen. Q. Where do you live? A. 2900 South 20th. Q. And in what city? A. Arlington. Q. You are a colored person I believe? A. Yes. Q. Do you know Miss Constance Carter, the plain tiff in this suit? A. Yes. Q. Is she also a negro? A. Yes. Q. Do you attend high school at the present time? A. I do. Q. What high school do you attend? A. Hofiman-Roston. Q. That is Hoffman-Boston High School in Arling ton? A. Yes. [ 208 1 (R. p. 618) Q. Did you attend the high school last year? A. I did. Q. What high school did you attend last year? A. Armstrong Technical High School. Q, Is that in Washington, D. C.? A. Yes. Q. And in what grade are you now? A. I am in 10-B, Q. What courses did you take at Armstrong Tech nical High School last year? A. I took a course in auto mechanics and, under that, drafting and blueprint reading. Q. Under auto mechanics, drafting? A. Blueprint reading and blueprint making. Q. What courses are you taking at Hoffman-Boston High School now? A. Right now I am taking biology, English, math, physical education and shop. Q. What kind of shop? A. It is general shop. Q. Are you also taking typing? A. Yes, sir. Q. When did Hoffman-Boston High School open? A. It opened the 6th. Q. On the 6th of this month? A. Yes. (R. p. 619) Q. Who is your Principal there? A. Mr. Sydnor. Q. When you entered school what did you tell Mr. Sydnor, if anything, with reference to the courses you have been taking or desired? A. I asked Mr. Sydnor could I take auto mechanics [ 209 J at Hoffman-Boston High School and he said he didn't have them then and he didn’t know whether they would have them at all, Q. Has any provision been made for you to take auto mechanics, blueprint reading or blueprint mak ing or drafting, so far as you know, at Hoffman-Bos ton? A. None. Q. And you have been attending Hoffman-Boston High School since it was opened? A. Yes, sir. # # # # & Cross Examination (R. p. 620) By Mr . Douglas: Q. When did you ask Mr. Sydnor about this matter? A. I asked Mr. Sydnor the first day of school. Q. On the first day of school? Where did you see him on that day? A. I saw him in his office. Q. In view of his answer, have you been back since to inquire whether he had found out whether such a course as auto mechanics would be given? A. His answer led me to believe that he wasn’t go ing to try to get any of the subjects I asked for. # # # # # ( R. p. 621) Q. Did he tell you anything as to wheth er or not there would be a course next year for you? A. He did not. £ # # # # [ 210 1 (R. p. 622) Q. When did you determine that you wanted to take auto mechanics at the Hoffman-Boston School? A. I had been taking a course of study for auto mechanics last year and I wanted to continue that course of study but I am forced to come to Hoffman- Boston School and I wanted to know whether they could give that course of study over there. # # * # # (R. p. 624) Do you still want to take that course? A. I do. Q. Did Mr. Sydnor say anything to you that if you wanted to you would be given the opportunity to at tend the colored regional high school at Manassas and you would be furnished transportation to that school if you wanted to take that course? (R. p. 625) A. He didn’t say anything about that. Q. He didn’t say anything about that school at all? A. He didn’t. # # # # * (R. p. 627) Did there ever come a time when any body asked you what you wanted to take in school this year? A. In Hoffman-Boston? Q. Yes. A. No, they haven’t. # * # # * R ed irec t E xamination (R. p. 629) By M r . M a r t in : * # # # * [ 211 ] Q. If you wanted to continue taking auto mechanics why didn’t you continue at Armstrong Technical High School in Washington this year? A. Because of the rate of tuition. Q, You were having to pay tuition to go over there? A. Yes, I would have had to pay it this year. Q. Because you were living in Arlington? Is that corret? A. Yes. # # # # # PEGGEY COUNCIL D ir e c t E xam ination (R. p. 630) By M r . M a r t in : Q, Tell me your name and address, please. A. My name is Peggy Council. I live at 3458 South 22nd Street, Arlington. Q. How old are you? A. Fifteen. Q. Are you attending school this year? A. I am. Q. What school? A. Hoffman-Boston. Q. Hoffman-Boston High School in Arlington? A. Yes. Q. And you live in Arlington? A. I do. Q. What school, if any, did you attend last year? A. Last year- I attended Hoffman-Boston in Arling ton from Dunbar in Washington. That is where I came from. [ 212 1 Q. How long did you attend Dunbar High School in Washington? A, I only attended Dunbar a half year. I had to come back to Arlington because I lived here and be cause the tuition fee which I couldn’t pay. (R. p. 681) Q. And then you left Dunbar in the middle of the term last year to came to Hoffman-Bos- ton? A. I did. Q. And you attended Holfman-Boston the rest of the year last year? A. I did. Q. And enrolled there again this year? A. Yes. Q. And what grade are you in at Hoffman-Boston now? A. 11-B. Q. What courses are you taking there now? A. This year I am taking physics, civics, typing and English. Q. Did you start in any other courses this year which you are not taking? A. Well, at the end of school we were given an election sheet to sign up for Latin and shorthand but there is no Latin and shorthand this year and no chem istry. Q. When were you given those elective sheets? A. At the end of school, about a week before the end of school? Q. You mean last June? A. Yes. Q. Before school was closed? A. Yes. [ 213 1 (R. p. 632) Q. Did you fill out those elective sheets that were given you? A. I did. Q. What did you put down on those sheets you wanted to take this year? A. This year I wanted chemistry, Latin, shorthand and typing. # # # * # Q. Are you taking any of those courses that you applied for last year? A. No. Q. You put down that you wanted to take Latin this year? A. Yes. Q. Are they offering a Latin course there this year? A. No, they are not. Q. I believe you put down that you wanted to take shorthand last year? A. Yes. Q. Are they offering any course in shorthand that you could take this year? A. No. Q. You put down that you wanted to take chemis try last year? A. Yes. (R. p. 633) Q. Are they offering any course in chemistry that you can take this year? A. No. Q. Did you turn in that elective sheet last year? A. I did. Q. Are you taking any foreign languages this year’ at all? A. No. [ 214 ] Q, And you are in grade 11-B? A. Yes. Q. Do you know whether or not it is necessary for you to take any other courses in foreign languages in order to enter college? A. Yes, it is; it is necessary for me to take Latin. Q. Did they offer any course in any foreign lan guage for you this year that you could take? A. They offered a course in Spanish but it was an advanced course and the girls had been taking it a half year before and therefore I couldn’t enter an ad vanced course. Q. That is one of those alternating courses they have over there I believe? A. Yes. Q. Are you taking any physical education? (R. p. 634) A. We were assigned physical educa tion yesterday. In the class was 10-B, 11-A, 11-B, 12-A and 12-B. Q. You mean all of you were taking that course to gether? A. Yes, six-. Q. Are you takiixg that course now? A. No, I withdrew yesterday. Q. Did anybody else withdraw with you? A. Three other girls. Q. You said you are taking civics now? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is there any other class taking civics with you? A. 11-B, 12-A, and 12-B. Q. All of you are taking civics in the same room? A. Yes. Q. You say you are taking physics? [ 215 1 A. Yes. Q. Any other classes taking physics with you? A. 11-B, 12-A and 12-B. Q. All in the same room? A. Yes. Q. Under the same teacher? A. Yes. Q. Are you taking typing? A. Yes. (R. p. 685) Q. Is anybody else taking typing with you? A. 11-A. Q. 11-A and you are in 11-B? A. Yes. Q. In the same room at the same time with the same teacher? A. Yes. Q. You said you were taking English. Any other classes taking English with you? A. 11-B, 12-A and 12-B. Q. All at the same time in the same room under the same teacher? A. Yes. Q. And you are taking typing and did you apply for shorthand also? A. I did. Q. What did they tell you about shorthand? A. Mr. Sydnor said he had considered the schedule of the teacher teaching shorthand and if he could he would work it out. I signed up for it last year and it should heve been worked out through the summer. # # # # # (R. p. 636) Q. And you are colored? [ 216 1 A. Yes. C ross E xamination B y M r . D ouglas: Q. When did you talk to Mr. Sydnor about these' problems? A. Well, at the end of school. He knows that I have a special program and I consulted him each time be fore going to any classes because most of the time my program has to be changed, so I let him know ahead of time so that he will have plenty of time to work out a program. Q. When you say at the end of school, you mean at the end of school in June? A. Yes, about two weeks before. Q. You consulted him? A. Yes. Q. When you say you have a special program, what does that mean? A. When I came from Dunbar I had signed up for the subjects over there and my records were sent to Hoffman-Boston to Mr. Sydnor. Some of the subjects he couldn’t offer me so therefore my program had to be changed all over because what the IG-B’s were taking then I already had in junior high school so there was no use wasting my time going back taking some- (R. p. 637) thing else. Q. He undertook to arrange a special course adapt ed to your needs as a transfer student? A. Yes. Q. And did you get what you wanted last year? A. No. [ 217 1 Q, You say you have not withdrawn from the school? A. No. Q. I misunderstood you then. You said something about “I withdrew and three other girls also withdrew.” A. From the physical education class. Q. You merely withdrew from that class? A. Yes. Q. Isn't that compulsory? A. Well, he said he would try to work in another class for us and stay out this week. Q. He told you to stay out this week? Who told you that? A. Mr. Sydnor. Q. And he was going to make some further effort to rearrange the schedule? A. Yes. Q. You say in the English class you recieve instruc tion with the members of classes 11-A, 12-A and 12-B? (R. p. 688) A. 11-B, 12-A and 12-B. Q. I wasn’t sure but you correct me if I am wrong. How many students are there in that English class? A. I can’t say because I didn’t bother to take notice of how many there were. Q. Approximately how many were there? A. Approximately twenty-five. Q. What is given in your English course? What subject does it cover generally? A. We haven’t been assigned to what it will cover this year because we have just registered in those classes now. We haven’t been given the course. Q. In your civics class you go to a class that con [ 218 1 sists, as I understand your testimony, of members of several different grades? A. Yes. Q. And what are those several different grades? A. 1X-B, 12-A and 12-B. Q. And how many approximately are in that class? A. Twenty-five. Q. And you go to the physics class? Is that right? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you have the same general situation there? A. Yes. Q. And the typing class. What classes are combined (R. p. 639) in that one? A. 11-A and 11-B. Q. And how many students in that class? A. About twenty-six. Q. And you said you were in 11-B? A. Yes, sir. Q. So after this semester you have another full year? A. Yes, sir . Q. Isn’t the shorthand course you requested given in the last year of your school work? Didn’t anyone tell you that? A. No. Q. Where are you going to college? A. I can’t say right now where I am going because my course has been messed up. Q. But you do know that you will have to have Latin to go to college? A. Yes. Q. Is that true of all the colleges that you have considered going to or which colleges have you found [ 2 1 9 1 required Latin as a condition prerequisite to entering? A, In the nursing course in most colleges Latin is necessary. ('). How did you find that out? A. Because when I went to Dunbar we had a (R. p. 640) counsellor there. Q. Did I ask you about how many were in your physics class? A. Yes, I think you did. Q. What did you say — about the same number? A. Yes. Q. About twenty-five? A. Yes. Q. As I understand it, you have withdrawn from your physical education class and I don’t want to put any words in your mouth — you correct me if I am wrong — that you have withdrawn from your physical education class at the suggestion of Mr. Sydnor to see whether a rearrangement could be made to give you certain courses that you wanted that you haven’t been promised yet? A. That is right. Q. And did I further understand that Mr. Sydnor suggested that you stay home this week or stay out of the physical education class? A. Stay out of the physical education class tills week. Q. And has he advised you yet what he has been able to work out for you? A. No. Q. Do you know what he was trying to do? A. He was trying to work in shorthand. I think if (R. p. 641) he had been able to do that he would have worked that out during the summer. [ 220 1 Q. That is sort of a conclusion that you reached? He couldn’t tell about that until he found out how many folks wanted to take shorthand? A. He knew that in the summer because all of us children that were leaving school last summer had elected all the classes on which they were to elect when they came back this year. Q. Don’t the students over there all take short hand in their last year? A. Shorthand has never been given there before. Q. You think he would have known from the elec tive list that you filled out in June. A. Yes. Q. You haven’t heard yet from Mr. Sydnor wheth er he has been able to arrange it or not? A. No. £ # # # # ( R, p. 643) Q. Had you had any Latin at Dunbar? A. No, I was to take it my next year there. Q. In order to get any credit for it on account of admission to college, if you do have Latin, aren’t you required to have two years of Latin? A. Yes. Q. If you only had a year and a half to go in Hoff- man-Boston, how were you going to get your Latin credit? A. I was going to have to take a post graduate course for the other half. Q. And where were you going to take the post grad uate course? At Hoffman-Boston? A. No. Mr. Sydnor told me when I first entered Hoffman-Boston that after finishing school that he 1 221 ] would see that I was admitted to a Washington School to take this post graduate course. * # # * * (R. p. 844) Q. He didn’t say anything about tak ing it at Hofiman-Boston? A. No he didn’t. * # * * # Q. When they started charging tuition in Washing ton — there was a time when Arlington County paid your tuition for going to Washington? A. Yes. Q. And after Arlington stopped paying your tui tion in Washington, you came to Hoffman-Boston? A. Yes. # # * # # (R. p. 645) Q. You say you were to take it at Dun bar. Why didn’t you take it at Dunbar while you were there? A. When I came from junior high school I had to have another half year of French. I took it out at Dun bar* and the next year would have been my year to enter Latin. Q. Why didn’t you enter Latin? A. I had to leave Dunbar. Q. You only went to senior high school a half year at Dunbar? A. Yes. Red irec t E xamination Bv M r . M a r tin : « & # # # f 2 2 2 3 (R. p. 646) Q. And the County stopped paying your tuition and you had to leave and come over here? A. Yes. Q. When you came over here last year did you advise Mr. Sydnor that you wanted to take Latin? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you couldn’t get it last year? A. No. Q. And you put it on your elective sheet in June? A. Yes. Q. And you can’t get it this year? A. No. Q. And the County still doesn’t pay your tuition to Washington where you can get it? A. No. M r . M a r t in : That is all. B y th e C o u r t : Q. When was the last time that the civics class met? A. Yesterday. Q. Was that the first meeting of the class too? A. Yes. Q. And there were twenty-five present? A. Yes. ( R. p. 647) Q. Do you understand that is to be the final distribution of the students for that class? A. What do you mean, that all of those classes are to be kept together? Q. Yes. A. Yes, sir. Q. That simply wasn’t a meeting of the classes for later separation? [ 223 1 A. No. Q- And A. Yes. Q- And A. Yes. # that is true of English? of physics? CHARLES J. WALSH D ir e c t E xamination B y M r . D ouglas: # # * # # (R. p. 674) Q. In your opinion, do those courses offer adequate instruction as given at the Hoffman-Bos- ton School? A. I don't make any pretense that that one single shop there offers an adequate vocational program but I do say that it is the policy of this Board to give these youngsters that training. If we can’t give it with the present facilities, the Board will pay the tuition at Manassas or elsewhere. # # # * C ross E xamination B y M r . M a r tin : # # # # # (R. p. 705) Q. You mean if a student makes a re quest this year for a course and if, by some circum stance, it is not offered this year, no record is kept of that aplication? [ 224 I A. The usual procedure on that is simply this: The youngster goes in to register for the course and if the Principal hasn’t set it up, they get in touch with us and we try to make some sort or arrangement about it. Q. There was testimony this morning that a stu dent at Hoffman-Boston in the 10th grade made ap plication at the beginning of school for auto-mechanics and related subjects — drafting, blueprint reading and making, and so forth — and was unable to obtain them. Does a white student in similar circumstances, attend ing Washington and Lee School, have to first demand that that course be given before he can take the course in auto mechanics and allied subjects? A. No. Q. There was testimony this morning that last year a student at Hoffman-Boston School made application for shorthand, Latin, Chemistry. Does a white student at Washington and Lee High School in similar circum stances have to make such a demand before being able to take that course? A. In some cases, yes,. In some cases he is denied those courses. In the case of auto mechanics, he would be denied the course because we can only handle — (R. p. 706) of two thousand children, as I pointed out before, we are so crowded that we can only handle — our capacity is twenty-five children in the auto me chanics shop a day and therefore we probably don’t handle one-third of the requests on those courses. Q. I understand, Mr. Walsh, he is denied the op portunity of taking auto mechanics because the class is over-crowded and he is unable to secure auto me chanics in that class at that particular time? A. Yes. [ 225 1 Q. He is not denied it because of his race or color, is he? A. No. (R . p. 710) B y M r . M a r t in : Q. Is the reason you don’t permit this boy to at tend Washington and Lee High School because he is a negro and white children only are attending Wash ington and Lee High school. (R. p. 711) A, Because the statute provides sepa rate facilities for negroes and whites and the answer then would be yes. Q. The answer to it is “yes” and the same applies to this young girl who testified this morning with re ference to the course that she had applied for last June? A. Correct. Q. How long has the School Board been offering Speech 1 and 2 at Washington and Lee High School? A. I don’t recall without having access to the rec ords. Q. Do you know of your own knowledge whether any white child has ever made application or has ever made a demand for that course at Washington and Lee High School? A. Not to my knowledge. I don’t know. # # # # # (R. p. 713) Q. Assuming that the student did that and then decided he wanted to take auto mechanics, if that were a colored school in Arlington County? A. Well, at the present time we would offer to give [ £ 2 6 1 him the instruction elsewhere. That is all we could do. Q. When you say elsewhere, you mean somewhere else out of the County within the State or within Wash ington? A. Within the State. Q. Somewhere within the State you would offer him auto mechanics? A. Manassas Negro School Q. How far is Manassas from Hoffman-Boston High School? A. I don’t recall the exact number of miles. Q. In what county is it? A. Prince William County. Q. In Prince William County. A. I believe Prince William County. T he C o u rt : It is about twenty or twenty- five miles, isn’t it? (R . p. 714) M r . D ouglas: It is about twenty- five miles. B y M r . M a r t in : Q. And how would he get to Manassas? A. A regular bus that takes the negro children from Fairfax to Manassas. # # * * # (R. p. 718) Q. Didn’t you testify earlier on direct examination that the better procedure in establishing courses of study for high school students is to plan the whole four-year program, the courses of study in progressive order? [ 227 1 A. That is correct. Q. That it is very inferior administration to put in one course here or there when a student demands it, regardless of need? A. That is correct. Q. Then aren’t the colored students being disad vantaged, the students at Hoffman-Boston School be ing by reason of their race and color and having to at tend that school? A. Not necessarily. It simply proves my point that this School Board is making every effort possible to provide the subjects that the children in Hoffman- Bos ton want. I don’t say it is good practice. Q. We are not speaking about effort; we are speak ing about accomplishments. Their efforts haven’t culm inated in the accomplishments of providing equal courses of study at Hoffman-Boston as are at Wash ington and Lee, have they? A. I don’t say that the two schools are equal in (R. p. 719) any respect. Q. You don’t say the two courses of study are equal either, do you? A. No. * # * * # (R. p. 730) Q. One question about the library. Would you say that the library at Hoffman-Boston is or is not equal to the library at Washington and Lee? A. It certainly isn’t equal in size. Q. Would you say it is equal in content? A. Nor equal in content. Q. Then I understand your answer to be that they are unequal? A. Unequal. It isn’t necessary to be. [ 2 2 8 1 (R. p. 731) Q. Of course, I believe you testified that the courses of study offered at the two schools are un equal? A. That is true. (R. p. 732) Q. On tire whole, Mr. Walsh, would you say that the facilities available for the students, high school students, at Hoffman-Boston High School are unequal to the facilities offered at Washington and Lee, that is, taking into consideratioino the courses of study, the equipment facilities, buildings and grounds? A. No, they are not equal. # # # # ** R ecross E xamination B y M r . M a r t in : # # # # * (R. p. 735) Q. Did I also understand you to say at the beginning of the cross examination that, so far as you know, you don’t know of any time when a white student or student at Washington and Lee had to de mand a course before he could take it? Courses that are, being taught now? A. That is right. Q. And all courses except those that are listed on page 66 of Dr. Dawson’s report, which are taught at Washington and Lee, the colored children will have to make demand for before it is either installed or offered to the child either at Hoffman-Boston or at some other place in the State? A. He has to register for it. [ 229 1 (R. p. 786) Q. When you say register, he has to request it? A. Yes. Q. And a white child under similar circumstances does not have to do that? A. If the course were not being offered at Wash ington and Lee and there were as many as eighteen desired the course, it would be possible to put the course in. Q. I will have to ash you one other question. Since these courses were not requested or previously request ed or demanded by the student at Washington and Lee, how did you come to install those courses? Didn’t you do, as you stated, the proper method of installing courses is to find out the needs of the students in that particular area and establish the courses for those stu dents in that area? A. The students indicated a desire for those courses. (>. But you still don’t install those courses until you determine there is a necessity for them; I mean that it would be advantageous to the students to take them? A. That is true. Q. And you have found out that it was advanta geous for the students in Arlington area to take the courses offered at Washington and Lee High School? Is that true? A. Well, in some cases I don’t know whether it would be advantageous or not, but, nevertheless, there was a demand for those particular courses. (R. p. 737) Q. A specific demand, you said? A. I say there was a general demand for the stu dent body of that size for those particular courses. [ 230 3 Q. When you say it is a demand, you mean it is a need? You found a need for it in the community? That is your answer? A. That is right. * * * * * (R. p. 746) Q. I understood you to say — and I want vou to correct me if I am wrong — that these courses are at present time being offered to the students at Wash ington and Lee and that the only reason a student at Hoffman-Boston does not get them is because no de mand has been made for them but do I further under stand you now to say that the student at Hoffman-Bos ton must not only make a demand for them or request, if you prefer that word, but that you investigate that student previous experience, courses of study, and de termine whether you are going to offer it to that stu dent at Hoffman-Boston? A. There is always a practical situation to look over any student’s record. For one thing, suppose they were registering for physics; they might not have the math ematical background that would enable them to carry on the course successfully. O. And that is the purpose of a guidance councel- lor, is it not? A.. That is correct. Q, And you do not have a guidance counsellor at Hoffman-Boston? (R. p. 747) A. That is correct, but we have a full time teaching Principal that devotes a great deal of his time to senior high school, who has a Master’s Degree and lias taken work in guidance and serves the same purpose. Q. You say full-time teaching Principal? [ 231 1 A. We have a full-time non-teaching Principal who spends a great deal of his time. # # # * * (R. p. 754) Q, And you don’t know whether Ma nassas or any other schools where you might send this child, are able to offer the courses that von have de- termined desirable in Arlington County, that you offer at Washington and Lee? Isn’t that true? A. Not until I would check with them. Q. And it is your present intention to send those children to Manassas or some other place without know ing whether they can secure the other courses that are necessary and desirable? A. Of course, I suspect if Manassas couldn’t, the Washington vocational schools would be able to give them more than we would be able to give them. Q. You might find it undesirable to send them to Manassas, in which case you would transfer and send them to Washington? A. I simply said a younster, if he couldn’t get what he wanted in Manassas school, the Board has sent children to Washington and paid their tuition and I am sure that they would not object to doing it again in a matter of satisfying the requirements of that par- (R. p. 755) ticular youngster. # # » * # (R . p. 758) B y M r . M a r t in : Q. You are Mr. Charles J. Walsh, Assistant Super intendent of Schools of Arlington County, in charge of personnel, who was on the stand yesterday afternoon, I believe? A. That is right. I 2 3 2 1 Q. Mr. Walsh, as I recall it, on your examination of yesterday you testified that the School Board of Ar lington County has always attempted to give to the ne gro children in Arlington County educational oppor tunities equal to those given to white children in the Countv and cited as an incident thereof the case of a young student named Davis, a citizen of Arlington (K. p. 759) County, that the School Board sent to Ma nassas and paid his tuition there, I believe? A. I said the request came in in the form of a letter to the School Board. The School Board acted on it and agreed to pay the boy’s tuition at Manassas and, in addition to that, further agreed in the same motion to pay tuition on any negro boy or girl that wanted to attend the school and take a vocational course that couldn’t be obtained at Hoffman-Boston. Q. I believe his applcation was based on the fact that he wanted to take certain courses of study that were not offered at Hoffman-Boston and that were offered at Washington and Lee and that was the basis upon which you agreed to pay his tuition and send him to Manassas? A. I don’t recall whether he registered at Hoffman- Boston or not. He made the request for the payment of tuition at the Negro Vocational School at Manassas. Q. Since you brought in the name of that student, Mr. Walsh, I assume you are familiar with the outcome of that particular incident? A. No, I am not. Q. Don’t you know, as a matter of fact, that Ma nassas never did accept that boy as a student? A. I was not aware of that. Q. Don’t you know, as a matter of fact, the School I 2 3 3 ] (R. p. 760) Board of Arlington County never paid Manassas one dime for the education of that boy? A. I know the School Board would have paid the boy’s tuition had any bill been rendered because it is a matter of record. Q. Regardless of what the School Board might or v/ould have done, as a matter fact the School Board never did pay one dime for the education of that boy at Manassas, did they? A. To my knowledge, no bill was received. Q. And to your knowledge, didn’t Manassas refuse to enroll him over there and didn’t the boy come back to Hoffman-B os ton and graduate from Hoffman-Bos ton last June? A. The Principal of the School at Manassas inform ed me that the boy would be admitted. Q. Was he admitted? A. I don’t know whether he was admited or not. Q. Didn’t that boy graduate from Hoffman-Bos- ton last June? A. I am unable to say unless I had the records. Q. Do you have records showing the graduates of Hoffman-Boston School last June? A. Yes. Q. Will you get those records and bring them here today to inform the Court as to whether or not that (R. p. 761) boy did not register and did not attend Manassas School last June but did come back to Hoff- man-Boston and register and attend school and grad uate from Hoffman-Boston School last June? The Court: Do you know that he did? Mr. Martin: I understand that he did. [ 2 3 4 ] Mr . Douglas: If counsel says he did, we will admit he did. I don't have any knowledge on it. * * * * * (R. p. 764) Q. That is assuming, as happened in this case, that the child is sent to a school over which you have no control, no jurisdiction, and further that you do not determine whether or not he is getting ed ucational opportunities required or necessary and which are given in Arlington County to other students of a different race? Do you say that is good educational practice? A. The school there has the same supervision and same control. Q. But you don’t say as an educator, as an admin istrator of the schools in Arlington County, that the school in Manassas has the same obligation to educate the Arlington County children as the Arlington County School Board does, do you? A. No, I would not say so. * * * * * St e p h e n McCl e l l a n d s y d n o r D ir ec t E xamination By Mr. Douglas: * * * * * (R. p. 776) Q. Will you state whether or not you had tables, chairs, and other necessary physical equip ment to enable you to give that course at that time? A. We had neither typewriting tables nor chairs. L 235 1 Q. When? A. In 1947, that was — the year of ’47-48. Q. And what did you do about that to enable you to give the course? A. Well, we used some of the desks and tables that we had but they were not typewriting tables nor type writing desks. * * * * * C ross E xamination (R . p. 803) B y M r . M a r t in : Q. On the program offering for courses to be given for this year was Speech 1 and 2 on your program offer- ing? A. No. Q. Was journalism, either 1 or 2, on your program offering? A. No. Q. Or solid geometry or commerical arithmetic? A. No. Q. Or economics, world history, economic geo graphy or Latin-American history? A. Latin American history — not unless it should come in the total but world history and economic geo graphy would be considered. It may be listed as social subjects but the required courses fall under that. Q. Was it in your program offering for this year? A. I think we have history in the 11th grade. Q. I will ask you this question: Are you at the pre sent time offering to students at Hoffman-Boston School courses in economics, world history, economic geo graphy or Latin American history? [ 236 1 A. We are not offering Latin American history. Q. Are you offering economics? A. We are not offering economics. Q. Are you offering economic geography? '(R. p. 804) No not economic geography. Q. Are you offering world history as a separate course? A,. Yes. Q. Are you offering at the present time either La tin. 1 or Latin 2? A. Neither one. Q. Are you offering at the present time commer cial law? A. No. Q. Business correspondence? A. No. Q. Bookkeeping? A. No. Q. Shorthand? A. That will be in the offering. Q. You said that will be offered? A.. Yes. Q. Mechanical drawing as a separte course? A. No. Q. Fine arts? A. Yes, we are offering fine arts. Q. You the offering a course in fine arts? A. No, we are only offering music and art appre ciation and courses like that. Q. You are offering a course in art appreciation? (R. p. 805) A. Yes. Q. And you are offering another ocurse in fine arts? A. No, we are not. [ 2 37 1 Q. Are you offering a course in commercial ait? A. No, we are not. Q. Are you offering a course in printing? A. No. Q. Sheet metal work? A. No. Q. Retail sales? A. No. Q. Consumer buying? A. No. Q. Driver training? A. No. Q. Do you have a cadet corps for either boys or girls? A. No. Q. I believe you testifed it is your general practice not to offer these courses. Are you offering at the pre sent time auto mechanics? A. No. Q. I believe you stated it is not your general prac tice to provide a course for one or two particular stu dents? A. It has been our practice. Q. It has been your practice to offer these courses (R. p. 806) for any particular student? A. It has been our practice not to before last year. Q. I believe you stated that Miss Campbell came there last year and desired chemistry but she came in the middle of the year and, of course, your class be gan at the beginning of the term? A. Yes. Q. And she couldn’t get in that class and it is one of those alternating courses so she can’t take it this year? I 238 ] A. That is correct, as far as I am concerned. Q. So she couldn’t take it last year in the second semester and she couldn’t take it this year and if she is there next year and hasn’t graduated she probably will be able to take it? Do I understand that to be your answer? A. That would be correct, if she is there. Q. And the same would apply to any student who happened to be a senior this year? Of course, if he were a senior this year and hadn’t already taken chemistry, he wouldn’t be able to take chemistry at all in the high school? A. In that case it would be referred to the School Board. Q. I believe you testified that the responsibility so far as you are concerned, for offering these courses would rest entirely in tire administrative department? (R. p. 807) A. Yes. I have to let them know the peculiar cases and what do they think best or what can we do. Q. You inform the School Board about these re quests? A. Yes. * * * if # Q. I believe you stated that there are fifteen stu dents in your English classes, that there are nine 11-Bs, (R. p. 808) four 12-As and two 12-Bs, all of those taught in the same room by the same teacher at the same time? A. Yes. Q. And the civics — the same rule applies? A. That is right. Q. And physics? [ 239 1 A, That is right. Q. And typewriting? A. Yes, it was true in typing. Q. So the 11-B, 12-A and 12-B, so far as these four courses are concerned, are taking them at the same time and under the same teacher, and you have eighteen advanced students in typing, I believe you testified? A. I believe Miss Carter would make the eigh teenth. Q. And you testified there are more than that in the beginners’ class? A. Yes, that is correct. Q. How many typewriters do you have? A. We have seventeen typewriters that have been purchased by the School Board to be used in the classes, with a requisition for ten new typewriters that have been ordered through the School Department. Q. But have not arrived? A. Have not been delivered. We only have seven teen at present. * » * * * (R. p. 812) So you only have twelve regular teachers who teach there regularly or all the time at II oilman- Boston? A. That is correct. Q. And all of those are high school teachers? A. Yes, junior and senior, you understand. Q. And how many classrooms do you have there in the high school department? A. We have six regular size classrooms — seven, in cluding a room that is smaller than the regular* that would seat only eighteen pupils. [ 240 1 Q. Then unless you could get the students together (R. p. 813) on these various electives they mentioned they wanted and to give up some of those electives or to transfer or combine some of them, it would be im possible for them to take all of the courses that they require under the present set-up as it is now? A. I think that is correct. You mean all of the courses that you named to be offered, and I told you no? Q. Yes. A. No, it would be impossible to offer all of those. Q. And it would be impossible to offer all of the courses that the students have requested last year and this year that are not now offered, would it not? A. All of them? Q. Yes. A. I would say yes, it would be impossible to offer all of them — the ones that we have just mentioned — auto mechanics and one or two others. Q. You only have one man teaching vocational ed ucation? A. That is right. # # # # # (R. p. 815) Q. Do you recall a young fellow named Alfred Calvin Davis last year who went to Manassas? A. Yes, I do. Q. I believe he stayed there about a week and then came back to Hoffman-Boston? A. I know he came to Hoffman-Boston. Q. He graduated in June from Hoffman-Boston? A. That is right. # # * * t 2 4 1 ] WILLIAM A. EARLY D ir e c t E xamination * # # # # B y M r . D ouglas: (R. p. 832) Q. What, if any, arrangements have been made with the Superintendents of Schools in charge of the Manassas colored school whereby Arling ton County colored students are permitted to attend that school, Mr. Early? A. We have made formal application to the Super intendent, Worth Peters, who operates the school as it is located in Manassas and have been granted permis sion to send to that school, either as day pupils, travel ling to and from or as boarding students — they have boarding facilities there — from Arlington County. That permission has been granted. Q. And upon the basis of what financial arrange ment? A. That Arlington County pay the cost. # # * * * (R. p. 836) B y th e C o u rt : Q. What School Board then would have direct con trol of the Regional School at Manassas? A. It is made up of members of each of the School Boards of the three governing bodies that have put their capital outlay there. Q. What is the designation of that Board? A. It is the School Board of the Negro Regional High School of Manassas as the Regional High School Joint Committee of Control. [ 242 1 Q. It isn’t a regular city or county School Board? A. No. Q. It is a special board of governors for that school? A. That is right, set up by statute. « # * * * (R . p. 842) B y M r . D ouglas: Q. Will you state whether or not the county School Board of Arlington has determined upon a policy of sending any colored student from this County, who may require subjects not taught in this County, to this school at Manassas? A. Yes. According to the School Board’s action of a year or more ago, they established the policy of pay ing the tuition and transportation of any student, qual ified student, who wished to attend classes that would not or could not be offered at the local negro high school. * * * * * C ross E xamination B y M r . H i l l : * * * * * (R. p. 863) A. The School is administered by the Manassas Regional High School joint Committte for Control which is made up of Board Members from three different counties and they appoint Mr. Peters as their Superintendent in Charge. Q. And the Superintendent is an ex-officio or ad visory member of the Board with non-voting privileges? A. That is right. [ 243 1 Q. And if the institution of any particular course requires any expenditures of funds, those funds have to be acquired in what manner, do you know? A. They either come from local sources which would be the counties, State sources or tuition sources. I don’t think they have any endowment. They may have a little. Q. If these funds have to come from local sources, (R. p. 864) then you mean that they would have to be jointly contributed by the three contributing School Boards? Is that correct? A. That is right. Q. So there has to be concurrent action on the part of the Boards of Supervisors of three different counties for the school fund? A. No, from the School Boards of those counties. Q. Each School Board in its county has to go to its Board of Supervisors in its county for its money? A. Yes, but money allotted to the School Board can be used without recontacting the Board of Supervisors. # * # * * (R. p. 866) Q. Do I understand you to mean by that that you are going to send all of your white voca tional students to the Manassas Regional School? A. Those which can be taken care of by Manassas that we do not have facilities for at the present plant. Q- Are there any negroes who fall within that same general category? A. All of them. Q. What negroes can stay in Arlington and get sheet metal? There has been a lot of testimony about that — or auto mechanics? A. None, at the present time. [ 244 1 Q. So the mere fact that a white pupil has to go out is not because he is white but just because he hap pens to be late in coming in the course or due to the (R. p. 887) normal course of operations, the class is filled when he arrives there? Is that correct? A. That is correct, the same way you would be if you had gone to the store and the sugar had been given to the man ahead of you and you didn’t get any, you would be discriminated against. Q. That is not discriminating. You happen to lose out due to the circumstances of the situation. Is that true with respect to negroes? Do they go out of Arling ton County or do you propose to send them out of Arlington County merely because facilities happen to be filled up or because of this race and color? A. Because we do not have the facilities. Q. Why is it they can’t compete for available places at Washoington and Lee Vocational School? A. The School Board has no discretion on that. That is set up by the statute under the State law over which we have no control. Q, And the State law says the negroes can’t attend schools with the white? A. And vice versa. The white cannnot attend school with the negroes. In other words, the white students cannot enroll at Hoffman-Boston. # * # # # (R. p. 868) But the negro student who wants to take vocational training can’t enroll because he is a negro and because of the fact that you set Washington and Lee up as a white school? Is that correct? A. That is correct, in the same sense that a five [ 245 1 year old child cannot enroll in the schools because the State law says we cannot take him until he is six. * # « » * (R. p. 872) Q. And a better opportunity than a community which pays much lower salaries. Let me ask you one other question: Isnt the salary scale of Prince William much lower than Arlington County? A. I don’t know how much it is but Arlington pays the best salaries in the State. # . # * # # (R . p. 8 8 8 ) B y M b . H i l l : Q. Mr. Early, coming back to this regional proposi tion, how do you propose to get the children to Ma nassas and maintain them there? A. Either through transportation of our own or with arrangements with Fairfax. Q. Have you got transportation of your own? A. We can provide it. (R. p. 889) Q. I am asking you do you have it available? A. Yes, we can provide it. Q. What kind of transportation do you have avail able now? A. Adequate transportation if we need it. Q. What type? By airplane or what? A. We have a car or can lease, rent or buy buses, either one. Q. But you don’t have anything under your present control? You are merely saying you can go down and buy a bus or go down and buy an automobile? A. We have an automobile that could be used for that purpose. [ 246 1 Q. If during the course of this week in the rearange- ment of these schedules, and so forth, has been testi fied, Monday morning you want to send ten or twelve children to Manassas, how do you send them? A. We would make arrangements with Fairfax County. Q. Who controls that transportation? A. Mr. Woodson, Superintendent of Schools, Fair fax County. They have the same arrangement with Alexandria. (R. p. 891) Q. And all of these arrangements are by virtue of these argeements you have talked about so far and will be under the control of the Joint Com mittee of Joint Control, or whatever policy there may have — it will be that Committee that has control of the school? A. That is correct. Q. And the transportation will be the transporta tion under the control of the Fairfax County School Board? A. That is correct. # * * # # HOWARD A. DAWSON C ross E xamination B y M r . M a r t in : * # # # # (R. p. 918) A. The fact that under my name ap pears the words “Director of Rural Service, National Education Association”, is merely to identify me. It does not mean that what I have to say in any way rep [ 247 1 resents the National Education Association. I would have no authority to commit the Association on any matter of this kind. So this report is to be contrued as a report for which I am wholly responsible. # # # # # Q. Would you say that your conclusions in this re port accurately reflect the opinions and beliefs of the National Education Association, or not? (R. p. 919) A. I haven’t the slightest idea, because they haven’t expressed any opinion on it. I said this is my report and not the National Education Associa tion’s. # * * * * (R. p. 922) Q, Dr. Dawson, I believe you stated that you have a Master of Arts Degree, and also a Doctor of Philosophy Degree? A. I did. Q. Are both of those from George Peabody College in Tennessee? A. That is right. Q. Do you hold any degrees from any college any place in the United States other than in Tennessee? A. I do not. Q. Tennessee, I believe, also operates under a seg regated school system? A. Yes, sir. I don’t see what that has to do with the degree I have. Q- I didn’t ask you that. I asked you do the schools operate under a segregated system? A. Certainly. & •» # $ L 243 ] (R. p. 929) Q. That is the beginning of your re port. Is your whole report here, including your appen dix, based upon what you consider facts, including this alleged fact? In order to determine whether or not the school facilities are equal or can be made equal, it is nec essary to take into consideration or keep in the back of your mind that they must be handled under a seg regated system in Arlington County. Is that a fact? A. Yes, and now I want to explain my answer, if I may have permission. I undertook to make this study to aid the Board of Education in improving educational (R. p. 930) facilities in Arlington County. In order to do that I had to know the limits under which the Board of Education could work. I did not undertake the job of advising the Board of Education to do something which they legally had no power to do. Segregation of schools under the laws of Virginia is a fact, and it was an essential fact to the study that I had to make. It made it necessary that I make recom mendations with respect to separate schools for Whites and Negroes. I wouldn’t want to undertake a job of advising the Board of Education how to circumvent the law. # # * # # (R. p. 931) Q, And your report further shows in its preamble or preliminary phase of it that Hoffman- Boston is set up and operated for Negro children and that Washington and Lee is set up and operated for White children because of the segregation law in the State of Virginia? A. That is right. [ 2 4 9 ] Q. Isn’t your conclusion to the effect that the rea son there are inequalities between the operation of the (R. p. 932) two schools for the two different races be cause of the segregation law in the State of Virginia? # * # # # T he C o u r t : As I understand it, the ques tion is whether or not segregation does not ac count for the inequalities. M r . M a r t in : T h at is the question. T he W it n e ss : Yes, because the segregation law has resulted in the Hoffman-Boston School of necessity being a small school because of the small population and therein lies the answer to most of the problems. # # =» # « (R. p. 942) Q. Would you say, as far as the ex terior of the schools are concerned, as far as the facili ties for physical education are concerned, that they are equal, Doctor? A. As far as an athletic program is concerned, foot- (R. p. 943) ball and baseball and track, they are not comparable. However, I pointed out in my report that the athletic field and stadium at Washington and Lee are support ed by the Athletic Association and not by the School Board. Q. It is operated on School Board property, isn’t it, Doctor? A. That is my understanding, sir. Q. They have teachers paid by the School Board, supervised athletics at Washington and Lee? [ 250 ] A. I am not certain whether they are paid by the School Board or the Athletic Association. As I remember it, the coach is probably paid by the School Board, but I wouldn’t want to make that state ment for certain. You will have to ask Mr. Walsh or Mr. Early. Q. Doesn’t your report show that the physical ed ucation department of Washington and Lee is paid by the School Board and operated by the School Board? A. The physical education department where you have gymnasium and calisthenics and that kind of train ing, certainly that is a direct part of the school program and included in the curriculum and they have such in struction in both schools. * » * # » (R. p. 951) Q. I beg your pardon. I show you Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 3, which is the auditorium at Hoffman-Boston. A. Yes, I think that is it. Q. And I show you Plaintiff’s Exhibit 17, which purports to be the auditorium at Washington and Lee? A. Yes, I think that is it. Q. Will you state that those auditoria are compar able or equal? A. They are quite different. Q. In what respect? A. Well, the Washington and Lee Auditorium are (R. p. 951) much larger. In the auditorium at Wash- ginton and Lee they have stationary seats. In Hoffman-Boston they have moveable seats because they do use the auditorium for certain gymnastic purposes. In both cases they have a stage and in the larger au [ 251 1 ditorium the stage is larger than the one at Hoffman- Boston. For most purposes for which we want just a school auditorium, if we weren’t concerned with physical ed ucation, I would say that adequate instructional op portunities could be carried on at Hoffman-Boston. It is a little like trying to compare a rabbit to a horse to compare those two school buildings. They are just dif ferent. They serve different purposes and different sizes of school bodies. They are not easily made, com parable. Q. Doctor, from an educational standpoint, speak ing about in general the opportunities for educational development in Aldington County, that same conclu sion can be reached with most of the phases of educa tion there in trying to compare Hoffman-Boston School for Colored Children, to Washington and Lee for White (R. p. 952) Children, that it is like trying to compare a rabbit to a horse, is it not? A. Just about like it. (R. p. 953) Q. Don’t you feel, Doctor, speaking as an expert from an educational standpoint, that the child ren attending Hoffman-Boston School just as much en titled to an auditorium comparable in all respects to the auditorium provided for other children in Washing ton and Lee? A. Well, I would say yes, if I know what you mean by comparable. For example, I wouldn’t say they ought to have one as large as Washington and Lee. I would say the}/' ought to have as good seats and as good stage and as good lighting facilities and it ought to be sufficiently as large to accommodate the number of students. [ 2 5 2 1 Q. And facilities for motion pictures and other things that they have at Washington and Lee? (R. p. 954) A. Sure. Q. Do they have those at Hoffman-Boston? A. No, they do not have facilities for motion pic tures. # # * * * (R. p. 958) Q. They have those facilities at Wash ington and Lee, and they do not have those, or equal facilities, to those at Hoffman-Boston. Then in those reports at least Hoffman-Boston is not equal to Wash ington and Lee; is that true? A. In some respects it wouldn’t be equal, but the main point is that they are different. # # # # # (R. p. 962) Q. When they finish school they won’t know how to make blueprints. A. They won’t get instruction in blueprint making at Hoffman-Boston and they couldn’t go to Washing ton and Lee to get it. Q. And they don’t have any place to make them, if they had the course available at Hoffman-Boston? A. Not now. Q. So in that respect the schools are not equal, are they, Doctor? A. In that respect they are not equal, if by that you mean they are not alike, or the same. * # ii # # (R. p. 971) Q. Why is it more necessary to teach a child a specialized course in auto mechanics or machine shop or sheet metal work or printing or woodworking [ 2 5 3 1 at Washington and Lee than it is at Hoffman-Boston? (R. p. 972) A. That is an administrative necessity. Q. You mean economic necessity? A. Not a matter of educational mothods of teach ing or efficiency; it is made necessary by the adminis trative situation under which you have to operate the two schools. Q. That is administrative necessity based upon ec onomic necessity, the size of the school and the segre gated setup in Arlington County? A. That is correct. Q. What is the ultimate result of that? A. I don’t know what results you are looking to. Q. It is discriminating against those children at Hoffman-Boston, isn’t it? A. No, I don’t think it is discriminating against them. You asked me personally whether I would have segregated schools in Arlington County if it were not required by law. My answer is no. I suppose that will surprise you, too. Q. From your report, Doctor, I am surprised, but do you say that the segregation of school children in Arlington County, then, in certain aspects, at least, which we have gone over this morning, does provide, or culminate in the children at Hoffman-Boston getting (R. p. 973) an unequal education? A. It is unequal in the sense that there are certain types of instruction which I have enumerated in my report, of which printing and automobile mechanics are two examples which are not offered at Hoffman- Boston, and they could not feasibly be offered there. # # # # # [ 254 ] (R. p. 974) Q. I am not trying to make you state anything. I am asking your opionion on certain courses of study. We will get to home economics after a while. I am merely asking you as a result of this separation, segregating the forty-eight children over at Hoffman- Boston, if they are not getting an unequal education in these courses that I have mentionad this morning? Aren’t they getting an unequal education because of that separation or that segregation, or whatever you want to call it? A. My answer is that they are not getting an ident ical education, and they probably couldn’t within the reasonable limits of economy, but so far as saying that their educational opportunities are unequal because they are different, I wouldn’t say that. # # # # # (R. p. 985) Are the students at the two schools af forded an equal opportunity to learn trades and busi nesses, based on the fact brought out here as to the plant facilities and equipment? A. They are not at the two schools, of course, be cause in auto mechanics and printing those subjects are not taught. I think it was brought out that the School Board would arrange for students who wanted that kind of instruction to be sent to Manassas. It is not taught at Hoffman-Boston. In those two instances I agree with your statement. (R. p. 990) Q. Is your conclusion the same on other phases of the report as it is on this one, such as the course in automechanics, that is a colored child in Hoffman-Boston desires to take automechanics he ap plies to his teacher and his teacher applies to Wash ington and Lee and ultimately he may be able to get [ 255 ] a course in automechanics, and that is not discrimin ation? A. I do not agree with that way of building a school curriculum. I certainly don’t advocate it and when you are talking about courses of study you are talking about one thing, and when you are talking about a book or magazine, you are talking about an entirely different thing. I heard the testimony about the way you build up a curriculum. I wouldn’t build a curriculum in any school on the basis of folks coming around and asking for what they might: want. The proper thing to do is (R. p. 991) to make a scientific study of the needs of the pupils and of the community and then take into consideration the resourscs, financial and otherwise, and set up a curriculum which has been developed by the educational experts in consultation with the parents concerned, and set it up out of some inimity of agree ment. I don’t know of an educational system anywhere in the world that could operate on the baisis of sticking in a course just because some parent or student came along and asked for it. # # # * # Q. And if they require a colored child to do such and give him a course of study based upon what he thinks he needs and do not put that course into the (R. p. 992) school until the child asks for and at the same time provides useful courses, whether that course or another course at the White school, that is at least some evidence of discrimination against that colored child, isn’t is, Doctor? A. Not necessarily an evidence of discrimination. It [ 2 5 6 ] is more likely to be an evidence of trying to make a prudent expenditure of school funds. I think that a Negro child that wants to study automechanics should be given that opportunity, but I don’t think it has to be given at Hoffman-Boston. It ought to be given some where in accordance with state law and I certainly would not deny him that opportunity when that is one of the regularly established courses. You will remember that at Washington and Lee they do not set up a course unless there are eighteen stu dents that want it. Obviously, if you applied that rule to Hoffman-Boston, you wouldn’t have any courses at all. So you need a different rule as to the number of students, but just the mere fact that a course is offered over at Washington and Lee and not offered at Hofl- man-Boston and a student comes up and asks for it, in (R. p. 993) my opinion, the School Board is hardly jus tified in spending the taxpayers’ money to set up a course for one pupil if they can do it otherwise. The pupil is certainly entitled to the instruction. Q. That is the reason I asked you the question be fore as to whether or not your testimony was colored by your previous experiences, whether or not it is eco- nomicaiy feasible, economically sound for the School Board of Arlington to set up a separate course in auto mechanics because one colored child asked for it at Hoffman-Boston. A. It is not economically feasible. Q. But it is educationally unsound for them not to do it, is it not, if they offered the course at Wash ington and Lee? A. No, it is not educationally unsound not to offer it at Hoffman-Boston. It would be discrimination if they f 257 1 do not make it possible for that student to have auto mechanics, and it doesn’t necessarily have to mean that it has to be in Arlington County, according to my point of view. Q. You advocate that it should be a segregated set up somewhere else. You say that is educationally sound? A, If a student were sent anywhere in Virginia the (R. p. 994) answer is obvious that it would have to be segregated. Of course, I think in a situation such as Arlington County, where the number of Negro pupils is small, segregation as a necessity is uneconomic, and I told you before if it weren’t for the Constitution and stat utes — # a # « # (R. p. 997) Q. So, on the whole, the commercial department, assuming that the purposes for having a commercial department were the same at each school, at Hoffman-Boston it is not equal to that at Washing ton and Lee; is that true? A. There, again, the answer is that it isn’t the same. What they undertake to teach is the same, although we could certainly say the pupils at Hoffman-Boston were handicapped by not having a calculating machine. (R. p. 998) Q. They have a mimeograph machine at Washington and Lee which they use, don’t they? A. Yes, they use that for general school purposes and, of course, the students in the commercial depart ment, I understand, run those sheets through the mim eographing machine. [ 258 1 Q. And they don’t have any mimeograph machine at all at Hoffman-Boston? A. I think that is right. They do not. # # # * # (R. p. 1012) Q. Don’t you feel that a group of children, regardless of whether they are White or color ed, living in a local community such as Arlington (R. p. 1013) County, should have an opportunity to take the same courses of study or the same type of courses of study rather than, as I understand they do in Arlington County, teach the White ehlidren auto mechanics and printing, and teach the colored child ren bricklaying? A. They ought to have the educational opportunity. I reiterate, however, that it wouldn’t of necessity have to be offered at Hoffman-Boston School. At least, I don’t think it would be good administrative practice or good economy in the use of public funds. Q. You are speaking now from economic standpoint and not from good educational practice, aren’t you? A. It wouldn’t be good educational practice to offer those courses at Hoffman-Boston. Q. Even though children are in the same local com munity? A. If there is any other feasible way for those stu dents to get that training more economically, it should be done. The mere fact that arrangements of that kind happen to be matters of inconvenience has for a long time been decided as not being a valid consideration. The fact that some children have to travel further to go to school than others is no evidence of discrimina- (R. p. 1014) tion, and I have never read a case in which it was so held. I 259 1 $ # & * # (R. p. 1015) Q. I don’t believe I made myself clear in the question. I meant assuming that all of the child ren are from the same local community, such as in Ar lington County, where the children may live next door to each other, or within the same block, or across the street from each other, asuming all of them are in the same local community and after completing school will have to compete with each other in the same type of vocation? A. Unfortunately, under the Constitution and laws of Virginia there are two separate communities, even if they do live next door to each other, and what I said is just as applicable. You remember I pointed out what would happen in a county all under the same board of education. In other words, you run right square into this segre gation business, which I can’t do anything about. * * # # * (R. p.1024) Q. Do you think the child who has successfully completed a course in journalism at a high school has a better opportunity to get a job as a jour nalist than one who does not have any credit course? A. The chances are he would have a better oppor tunity to get a job, provided be was a proficient student. (R. p. 1025) Q. Isn’t it general practice for a tea cher who is assigned to teach the course in journalism to be proficient in journalism; to have some practical experience in journalism? A. I don’t know whether she would have actual practical experience in the way of employment. I would say she should have some specialized training in her f 2 6 0 1 collegiate career in that field if she is going to teach journalism. Q. The same applies to a teacher who is going to teach speech; is that correct? A. Yes, except that any teacher who has majored in English preparing to teach had instruction in spoken (R. p. 1026) English, and for the pin-pose of instruc tion on the high school level she ordinarily will be qualified to teach what could reasonably be taught in high school. Q. Do you have any information that the teacher who teaches English at Hoffman-Boston is qualified to teach speech and journalism, or has had any exper ience, either practical or otherwise, in journalism? A. No; I have not examined the transcripts of cred its or talked with teachers, so I could not answer that. What I pointed out was that the administration of the schools in Arlington County could organize their instructional courses so as to do that. Whether they are actually doing that or not, I don’t know. # * * # * (R. p. 1027) Q. On page 75 of your report, in par agraph 3, it states that the School Board should con tract with the Board of Regional Vocational and High School for Negroes at Manassas to accept any Negro pupils at Arlington County that want instruction not offered at Hoffman-Boston, pay the tuition and trans portation expense for such pupils. I believe the testimony has been that Manassas is some 28 or 30 miles from Arlington. Would you say that by sending certain of their child- (R. p. 1028) ren outside of the county to a school 25, 38 or 30 miles away while permitting the others to get [ 261 1 their education within the county was not discrimina tion? A. I don’t think it is discrimination. It is an inci dent of this whole question of classification based on segregation. It is a matter of the Board doing the best it can to administer the school system under its limita tions, and with the resources it has in hand. Q. But even assuming that the courses of study at Manassas were the same as those at Arlington, is it not the classification which puts an extra burden upon the children who are forced to go outside of their county? A. Well, in the sense that segregation may place an extra burden any where, yes. Q. That is, we are assuming that the courses of study at Manassas are equal. Suppose the child who goes to Manassas to take vo cational courses comes back to Hoffman-Boston to com plete his high school education, and certain of these three-cycle courses were offered there last year, what happens to that student who is not able to take that (R. p. 1029) course, who has to wait two more years before he is able to take it? A. It is entirely possible he would be inconven ienced a year. Q. And he would not be discriminated against; would he not? A. Well, I don’t know. You may have one idea of discrimination and I another. I do not think it is a matter of discrimination simply because of race or color. It is a fact that it incident to the situation over which the Board has no control because that was settled by the State law. I 262 ] They do have within their discretion the decision to make as to what is the best educational program and how it best should be afforded, so long as they conform to the State law and the requirements of the State Department of Education. In doing what I have suggested they would have done both. I do not consider that a matter of discrim - in filiation or any intention to discriminate because of race or color. It is a natural concomitance of a situa tion that cannot be helped. Q. What is your idea of discrimination? * « * « * (R. p. 1080) T h e W it n e ss : I think, if the School Board said “No, we won’t teach that course because you are a Negro,” that would be discrimination. If they say “We won’t teach you this course because it is not practical under the limitation of law under which we have to ope rate”, that is not discrimination. It is an incident of classification. B y M r . M a r tin : # # # * % (R. p. 1033) Q. You don’t have any information as to whether the State of Virginia will give any credit for any such correspondence courses in higher mathematics from out-of-state- schools? A. I do not know, but it would be easy to fnd that out. Q. Did you say that a student taking a correspond ence course in higher mathematics is not disadvantag ed from one who is taking a course in a classroom with other students in higher mathematics? [ 2 6 3 i A. He may be disadvantaged in the fact that lie would have to do more work than he ordinarily does (R. p. 1034) in a class. He would not be disadvantaged insofar as he could master the subject, because it has been demonstrated that mastery of a subject in cer tain fields by correspondence is rather superior. I have done some correspondence work. From the standpoint of work, it is a hard way to get an educa tion, it is a hard way to get an education, but it can he done, and the student can make out. Q. And the supervision of a teacher in the class room? A. He misses that even in small classes where you teach classes with one pupil or two or three. A cer tain amount of social stimulation from a group will necessarily be missed. One way to make up for it is by increased time relationship between the pupil and the teacher. Q. Your answer would be the same in these courses: commercial arithmetic, general mathematics, referring to paragraph 5 of your report, page 68; would it not? A. Yes; except that in a case like general mathe matics it would also be true of general science. Also, in a school such as IIoilman-Boston, there certainly ought to be classes organized. If I had to take my choice between, not taking general science, or not hav ing these specilized sciences, I would prefer to have the general science taught by a well-qualified teacher. That ( R. p. 1035) subject is in a different category from solid geometry, for example Q. Rut it is better to have general science and cer tain specialized scientific courses, is not that true? A. That is true. [ 264 1 Q. That is, to have a separate course for separate unit credits for those courses? A. It is desirable to have both. Q. I notice in the second paragraph of page 5 that it is stated that economics, world history, economic geography and Latin-American history are ordinarily taught at Washington-Lee and not given at Iloffman- Boston. You state that economics and economic geography can well be provided in the course of civics and social studies. World history and Latin-American history are definite deficiencies that should be remidied if any qualified student asks for such instruction. I understand from ths paragraph that none of these four courses are offered at Hoffman-Boston, although all were offered at Washington-Lee? (R. p. 1036) A. Yes; I think the table shows that. Q. Of course, that is a definite deficiency in the school curriculum at Hoffman-Boston? A. As I pointed out, yes. Q. On page 69 of your report, Doctor, dealing with paragraphs numbered 7 and 9 where Commercial Law— A. I beg your pardon? What page was that? Q. Page 69 dealing with commercial law and book keeping, both of which are taught at Washington-Lee, and neither of which is taught at Hoffman-Boston. Did you say that they can- be offered as well to the students at Hoffman-Boston by a supervised corre spondence course as they are being offered at the pre sent time at Washington-Lee? A. They can be adequately offered with the same (R. p. 1037) limitation that I agreed to a while ago: whatever is missed through the stimulation of being E 2 8 5 ] with other students is a factor that you would have to evaluate to accompany your point of view. (R. p. 1043) Q. I believe you stated that driver training should be taught at the Hoffman-Boston school? A. Certainly everybody who is going to drive an automobile would profit from that kind of instruction. * • * * # (R. p. 1044) Q. The so-called vocational shop and (at) Hoffman-Boston is taught for only one hour class period just as all the other class periods are taught? It is not a vocational shop. It is a general shop, is it not? A. Primarily, that is what it is. Mr. Halstead has done a pretty good job. According to technical information bricklaying is not a vocation, although actually it is. Q. The general shop at Hoffman-Boston is not set up as a specialized and departmentalized unit on a unit basis? A. No; it is not. Q. Such as that at Washington-Lee? A. No; it is not run the same way. Q. The purpose of the vocational shop which you have at Washington-Lee is to teach the school children to he journeyman, when they come out in their particu lar trade; is it not? (R. p. 1045) A. I think that is tue in some of these vocational schools and courses, especially automobile mechanics. It cannot teach them to be a journeyman, because you understand that a high school graduate is not going to get to be a journeyman in high school. He [ 2 6 8 1 is going to have to serve an apprenticeship, The labor unions take care of that. (R. p. 1046) Q. You stated a number of times that a lot of these courses are not specifically mentioned by name as being taught at Hoffman-Boston which are taught at Washington-Lee could well be taught in con- (R, p. 1047) junction with some of the courses at Hoff man-Boston. I have asked about certain specific courses, but do you have any information, direct information from any of the teachers at Hoffman-Boston which will show that they are capable of teaching these related courses which you mentioned here this morning and this afternoon in their regular courses of study, A. No; I do not. What I did in my report was to recommend to the Board of Education and the Super visor and administrative officals that they can make it their business to see that the teaching was done in that way. I have little doubt that the teachers who are in Hoff man-Boston have the requisit training and qualifica tions to do the job that way. However, I hasten to say that usually any group of teachers anywhere you could find, whether in a white school or a colored school, do the kind of thing I am talking about only when they have a skillful adminis trative and supervisory leadership. But of necessity, the training they have in college gave them a knowledge of these various subject matter fields, which would make the kind of coordination and correlation I am talking about feasible. # * # * * E 2 6 7 1 (R. p. 1048) Q. Dr. Dawson, you have stated that the cause of giving a lot of these different courses in Washington-Lee and so few courses in Hoffman-Bos- ton was because of the difference in the size of the schools? A. Yes, sir. Q. You recognized the fact, of course, in your re port that there are differences in the courses of study offered? A. Yes; and I tried to point them out specifically. Q, And there are differences in the other equip ment. For instance, i don’t know whether I brought it out or not, but I do believe that on pages 53 and 61 of your report it shows what I am talking about. On page 53, for instance, dealing with cafeterias and lunch services, you state chat there is an adequate cafeteria (R. p. 1049) and an excellent lunch program, and I believe that there is no cafeteria or luncheon program at Hoffman-Roston. 1 believe that is true; is it not? A. Yes; that is correct. Q. It is a recognized fact, is it not, that cafeteria and lunch programs are essential to a well-regulated high school? A. Not essential, but highly desirable, There certain ly should be one for all school children in Arlington County, whether Hoffman-Roston or otherwise. Of course, I did point out here that they should have a lunch, program. I also pointed out 1 didn’t consider the fact that they did not have one over there evidence of inten tion to discriminate on the part of the Board of Educa tion, because I saw that Dolly Madison Junior High School for white people is one with 600 whites peoples, and they did not have any cafeteria, either. [ 26S 1 I did not think it is by design that they did not have one. It is because the thing grew up over there like Topsy. They should get around to establishing cafe terias. Q. I do not believe the issue here is the question of actual intent of the School Board as to whether or not they intended to discriminate or not. I believe it (R. p. 1050) is whether or not they are providing equal facilities for the two schools. A. They did not provide cafeterias at Hoffman-Bos ton. # # # # # (R. p. 1056) I believe you state here that Wash ington-Lee High School is accredited both by the Vir ginia State Department of Education and the Southern Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools? A. Yes. Q. And up until 1948-1949 Hoffman-Boston High School was not accredited by the Virginia State Board of Education, but it is accredited at the present time on the probationary list? A. Yes; that was the information I was given by the administrative authorities. <Q. And that at the present time Hoffman-Boston High School is not accredited yet by the Southern As sociation of Colleges and Secondary Schools? A. It was not at the time I made this report. I have not checked any further. # # * * * (R. p. 1057) Q. Now, what is the advantage of a school being accredited by the Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools? [ 269 1 A. Well, it gives public recognization as to the qual ity of the school and what the teachers qualify as, and how well the school is operated. It gives notice to the public that the school is organized and it has such merit that it is recognized by this Association, and the states in that Association. # # # * # ELIZABETH PFOHL CAMPBELL Cross E xamination By Mr . Ransom: # # # # # (R. p. 1080) Q. But you are still expressing your personal view. My question is this: Suppose there is only one Negro student who wants a unit course in journalism. No matter whether she might get better instruction by tak ing it up under a teacher, but if she wanted a unit course, and if there are such unit courses available at Washington-Lee and not available at Hoffman-Boston, will the Board put that course in? A. I don t think they would be justified in putting it in. That would be my answer. We could send her to Manassas if she show enough aptitude. * # # # # (R. p. 1082) Q. And I appreciate your views as a member of the Board. That is exactly what I want to get. Now, you have this unit course already down at - Washington-Lee High School. Let’s assume that we 1 2 7 0 1 have this one Negro child, and let us say, to meet your conditions, that after discusing it with her parents she has intelligently decided that she wants this course. A. Not after discusing it with her parents. ( R. p. 1083) Q. I said after the child had discussed it. A. No, not after the child had discussed it with her parents. Q. Pardon me. Will you let me finish the question, Mrs. Campbell? A. Yes, sir. Q. After she had intelligently discussed the matter with her parents, let us say that she wanted this same unit course, but not as a part of this generalized in struction in the general course. She wanted a unit course, and she comes to the Board with that request. Do I understand you to say that you would not set it up until after you had personally taken up time and decided whether or not she ought to do it? A. I would prefer not to do it. I would prefer to see that she was tested to find out whether she could use that course, that is, whether she had the ability to use it, whether there was any pracital reason why tax money should be spent to offer one course to one pupil who has no reason and perhaps no ability to use it. ** & * # * (R. p. 1087) A. Well, state your question again, would you? Q. The one Negro child in Arlington County who wanted a unit course which is avaiable to all white children at Washington-Lee High School can not get'1 it in Arlington County colored high school, no matter [ 271 ] what her ability is, whereas she could get it if she were white, no matter what her ability, at Washington-Lee High School? Now, can you answer that “yes” or “no”? A. I can answer it, but I don’t think you have asked the question right. Q. Well, will you answer it, please, and then you can say anything else you want to. A. Well, no. WILLIAM H. EARLY (Recalled) D ir e c t E xamination B y M r . D o u g l a s : * # * # # (R. p. 1090 )Q. By what means are those persons being transported to Manassas? A. The two girls and the one boy are transported by an arrangement with Fairfax County. Then we have purchased a bus and are sending the forty-one or forty-two boys to Manassas in it. Our Negro student is going on a Fairfax bus by the same arrangement or contractual arrangement that we have for the two white girls and one white boy coming out of the Falls Church area. * * * * • . # C ross E xamination B y M r . M a r t in : ft ft ft ft ft [ 272 ] (R. p. 1105) Q. I believe you stated that she tried to take chemistry and she couldn’t get it, but that in all probability it would be offered next year? A. That has been the plan, that is, alternating courses each year. Q. They teach chemistry at Washington-Lee every year, don’t they? A. I think so. Q. And Miss Council tesified that she was at Hoff- man-Boston from the middle of the term until June of last year and couldn’t get chemistry last year either? A. I believe that was a matter of choice, Mr. Martin, by vitrue of the fact that she could have (g)done into that class for a half vear, had she wanted to. (R. p. 1106) Q. Wasn’t her testimony that that class had begun in September and that she couldn’t enter the class in the middle of the year-? A I don’t remember. Q. And that she can’t get it this year, and that she is within, at the present time, a year and a half of grad uating from high school, or about a year? A. I believe it would be about a year; that is right. Q. When do you expect her to be able to take chemistry in an Arlington County School? A. It will be available for her the entire year next year-. You see, she is a transfer student. We set this school up and operate it according to the students that are within its borders, within its jurisdiction, at the time. We have never been able, in any school I have ever konwn, to take care of all the variations of transferees that might want to come to you. You never know when they are going to show up. [ 273 1 Q. Well, a white student, under the same or similar circumstances, whether a transfer student or living in Arlington County, could have taken chemistry before graduating from high school if that person had applied for it at the beginning of this school term? (R. p. 1107) A. That is correct. Q. And Peggy Council can’t take it because she is colored and is not permitted to attend a white school; is that correct? A. She can’t take it because the school she is at tending doesn’t teach it this year. Q. What school do you provide in Arlington County that she can take it in? A. We don’t provide any in Arlington County that she can take it in. Q. Now, you stated the reason she couldn’t take Latin is because she had only a year and a half to go, and she would, of course, graduate before she had a sufficient amount of Latin completed to obtain credit in college; that is true, isn’t it? A. Yes. That is correct. Q. But when she applied for Latin last February, she had only a year and a half to go and she could have been within a half year of completing the Latin course by the time she had completed her other sub jects; isn’t that correct? A. Coming at the middle of the term that way, there are very few courses in a seven-five school that start (R. p. 1108) at the half year point, if any. I am not sure of any that start at the half year mark. Therefore, she would have had to wait over until this year anyway had she wanted to take it. It was not offer ed by virtue of tire fact that there was no demand for it, particularly. [ 274 1 O. There was one demand for it? A. We have never been able to substaniate that with our records, so we won’t know. Q. Well, regardless of whether it was a demand or not, the course of study in Latin, although she claim ed it was necessary for her college preparatory work, was not offered to her, while it was at the same time being offered to other children in the county who were not Negro; is that right? A. Well, I think Mrs. Campbell brought out a while ago the fact that only those students whe were guided or were encouraged to go into that type of curriculum would go into it at any school. Therefore, I don’t know that I can answer your question by “yes” or hto”. We are not offering it this year because, according to our records, we had no requests for it. Q. But, Mr. Early, you are speaking now as ad ministrative officer of the school system in Arlington (R. p. 1109) County while Mrs. Campbell was speak ing as a member of the School Board and stating what she would like to do as a member of the School Board and as a mother. But you don’t profess to examine every Negro child who wants to take some course of study that is not offered at Hoffman-Boston but which is offered at Washington-Lee, do you? A. We have to rely upon the administration at Hoff- man-Boston to advise us as to what they would recom mend, and we have done that right along. #& [ 275 ] ALLEN G. BROADNAX D ir e c t E xamination B y M r . R obin son : # # * # # (R. p. 1124) Q. Please state whether or not you have had occasion to make a series of photographs of the Manassas Regional High School at Manassas, Vir ginia? A. Yes, I had occasion to do so on September 30, 1949. * * * # & (R. p. 1129) Q. Did you make an examination for purposes of determining whether or ont there was any gymnasium or gymnasium facilities at Manassas Re gional School? A. Yes. Q- Did you find any gymnasium or gymnasium fa cilities there? A. No. Q. Did you see any art room at that school? A. No. Q. Any band auditorium? A. No" Q. Any bookkeeping classroom? A. No. Q- Any distributive education room? A. No, I didn’t. Q. Any guidance office? A. No. Q. Any music room? A. No. [ 276 1 (,}. Any teachers' lounges? A~, N o. * * * W. A. EARLY R ed irect E xamination B y M r . M a r t in : e a * # * (R. p. 1138) Q. At the present time the children who are attending Hoffman-Boston School now are not permitted to take printing, are they? A. We have had no demand for printing. O. Does a white child who goes to Washington and Lee School have to make a demand for a course in printing to be instituted for him? A. That is correct. Q. Isn’t the course already instituted in printing (R. p. 1139) for the children at Washington and Lee? A. That is correct. Q. He doesn’t have to make a demand for a course to be instituted? A. That is the way it started, yes. Q. When did it start? A. I don’t know. Q. It was in there when you came there? A. That is correct. Q. The children who entered in September at Washington and Lee, the white children, were able to take the printing and the course was available for them to take printing in September? A. If there was room for them, yes. [ 277 1 0 . And whether or not there was room for the children in Washington and Lee to take printing, no colored child could take printing anywhere under the supervision of the Arlington County School Board, could they? A. That is correct. * $ # ft ft (R. p. 1142) Q. Have you been to Manassas since the last hearing when we were here in the first part of September to determine whether or not there are faci lities at Manassas for teaching auto mechanics, mechan ical drawing, machine shop, sheet metal worok, print shop, or wood shop or whether any of those courses are being offered at the present time? Have you been there to make an examination and inspection to determine whether or not those things are true? A. No. ft * ft ft ft PEGGY COUNCIL (Recalled) C ross E xamination B y M r . M a r tin : ft ft ft ft ft (R. p. 1145) Q. You entered PIoffman-Boston School in September of ’48? A. Yes. ft ft ft ft ft Q. What courses of study are you taking at the present time, Miss Council? [ 278 ] A. Civics, physics, shorthand, typing, home econ omics and English. Q. I believe you testified at the previous hearing (R. p. 1146) that you were taking typing. You stated you were not taking shorthand and desired to take shorthand? Is that correct? A. Yes. Q. When did you begin taking the course in short hand? A. It was in the early part of October. Q. That was since the last hearing? A. Yes. Q. I believe you also testified that you desired to take Latin? Is that correct? A. Yes. Q. And that you were not able to do so? A. Yes. Q. Are you taking Latin at the present time-'? A. No, I am not. Q. You stated that you began attending Hoffman- Boston in September of last year? A. Yes. Q- Did you desire to take Latin at that time: A. I did. Q- Was it offered at that time? A. No, it wasn’t. Q- Were you able to take it at all last year'? A. No. Q And you haven’t been able to take it this year: A. No, I haven’t. <R. p. 1147) Q. Are you taking any type of phys leaf education at the present time? A. No. Q. I believe you testified the last time you register [ 279 ] ed in a course of physical education but later with drew? A. Yes. Q. And why was that? A. 9-B, 10, 11 and 12, are all taking the same course. Q. Are they still taking the same course at the pre sent time? A. Some of the other girls withdrew from the class. The class is still in opration but not all the girls are there that were there when it first started. Q. I believe you testified at the last hearing that the Principal of the School told you or agreed for you to withdraw from that course, that other arrangements would be made for you to take physical education? A. Not to take physical education but other ar rangements were made. The first week I was out of the physical education class I was assigned to study in the library and about the second week lie asigned me to home economics class. Q. And in what grade are you now? A. 11-B. Q. And when are you supposed to graduate? A. I am supposed to graduate next Febraury. (R. p. 1148) Q. This coming Febraury? A. No. Q. February after this coming? A. Yes. Q. You have a little less than a year and a half of school now? A. Yes. Q. And I understand you requested the course in Latin when you entered there September before this last? A. Yes, I did. [ 2 8 0 1 Q. And you haven’t been able to take it yet? A. No, I haven’t. * * * * * (R. p. 1153) Q. You testified that you desired to take Latin. When did that desire first arise in your mind? A. While I was at Dunbar we also had to fill out an elective sheet and I gave my desires for shorthand and, if I recall correctly, Mr. Sydnor received m y ---- Q. You said Dunbar. Let us get these things straight. It was while you were at Dunbar? A. Mr. Sydnor received my elective sheet from (R. p. 1154) Dunbar and Latin was on that. At the close of school I also desired Latin and I haven’t gotten any Latin as yet. Q. You have seen this card which is identified and has been admitted in evidence as Defendant’s Exhibit— I beg your pardon — I think you have not seen this card. I now show you a paper which has been intro duced in evidence here as Sydnor Exhibit A and I ask (R. p. 1155) you whether that is in your handwriting? A. It is. Q. When did you write out that card? A. I wrote this card out about May and this is the one that was handed to Mr. Sydnor personally. I gave it to him myself. # sft # # # Q. What is the purpose of that writing on that card? A. This is an elective. There was another elective, as I stated in my last testimony, that was given to my home room teacher, Mrs. Wilson, with the class report. [ 2 8 1 ] Q. Is it customary to take out two such schedules of the courses that you want to take? A. When I filled out this one I didn’t have the understanding that we were to elect our courses if La tin wouldn’t be offered. I didn’t have that understand ing when I filled this out. After I got the understanding that Latin would be offered at Hoffman-Boston this year I filled out another sheet which Latin was on. Q. Is that why you didn’t put Latin on that card? A. Yes, because I didn’t have the understanding it (R. p. 1156) was to be offered. Q. When did you first find out that Latin would be offered? A. It was in June. I don’t recall. * # # # # Q. If you handed the first card to Mr. Sydnor why did you hand the other card to someone else? A. I handed the other card to my home room tea cher because she was the one that gave it to us and we were to fill them out and hand them back to her. * # # # # (R. p. 1158) Q. Did anyone tell you — I believe you testified that you understood that you couldn’t complete your two years of Latin beginning at the point at which you found yourself last September and that you were going to take some post-graduate course? A. Mr. Sydnor said I would be able to take a post graduate course after finishing high school in Wash ington without much expense from my parents. Q. You couldn’t start the last half of the second (R. p. 1159) year of Latin in September in the Wash ington School System [ 282 1 A. I don’t know. Q. Wouldn’t you have to wait until February follow ing your graduation from Hoffman-Boston before you could start taking the last half year of Latin? A. I don’t know. Q. Have you determined in what school you are going to take your nursing instruction? A. At the rate I am going now, I won’t be able to take any musing. Q. Why? A. Because I haven’t had any Latin and the way it looks, I won’t get any. Q. Have you determined what school you would attend if you did take nursing instruction? A. Hampton. Q. Do you understand that at Hampton Latin would be required as a prerequisite for admission? A. As I understaand it, Latin is required for nurs ing because most prescriptions are written in Latin. R ed irec t E xamination (R . p, 1180) B y M r . M a r tin : Q. One or two other questions. I believe you testi fied the last time that you also applied for chemistry. Are you taking chemstry now? A. No, I am not. Q. You haven’t been able to take either chemistry or Latin since you have been at Hoffman-Boston? A. No, I haven’t. Q. Is it your understanding that both of those courses are necessary for you to attend nursing school? 1 283 1 A. Yes. Q. Has the Division Superintendent or any of the members of the administration offered to provide a course for you in either of those courses? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Regardless of whether you have read this peti- (R. p. 1161)tion, did you apply for those courses either on or about the beginning of the school term in Sep tember of this year or before that time in Hoffman-Bos- ton? A. I did. Q. And you haven’t been able to obtain either of them since? A. No. # # # # # C. N. BENNETT D ir ec t E xamination By Mr. R a n so m : Q. Mr. Bennett, will you state your full name and address? A. My full name is C. N. Bennett, Manassas, Vir ginia.O Q. And what is your occupation, Mr. Bennett? A. Principal of the Manassas Regional High School. Q. Is that the Regional High School maintained (R. p. 1162) at Manassas for the education of negroes? A. It is the Manassas Regional High School. Q. Is it for the education of negroes? A. Yes, it is. * * # * # [ 284 1 B y th e C o u rt : Q. As Principal, is it one of your duties to make up the curriculum for the year? A. As the Principal, it is my duty to plan cooper atively with the faculty and the School Board for our curriculum. Q. Who makes up the curriculum finally? A. Who makes up the curriculum finally? Q. Yes. A. It is planned cooperatively. Q. It comes out of the cooperative consideration? (R. p. 1163) A. Yes, sir. B y M r . R a n so m : # # # # # Q. Now, Mr. Bennett, I want you to examine that schedule of your offerings at Manassas Regional High School and tell me whether or not economics appears upon that schedule, a course in economics? A. A course in economics does not appear on that schedule. (R. p. 1164) Q, Does a course in busines mathe matics appear upon that schedule? A. A course in business mathematics does not ap pear. 1 may say those two course do not appear due to the fact that they haven’t been requested. Q. Does a course in bookkeeping appear upon that Schedule? A. No, it does not appear on that schedule. It did appear on the first schedule but that course was made available but we didn’t have enough requests for that course. [ 285 J Q. You had some requests but not enough? A. Not enough. Q. How many requests did you have? A. I don’t think we had over five or six requests. Q. So you took it off the schedule? A. Yes. Q. Have you a course in solid geometry appearing on that schedule? A. No. Q. Do you have a course in trigonometry appear ing on that schedule? A. No request was made for any of those. They axe (R. p. 1165) available but no requests have been made. Q. You do not give them at the present time and the schedule is made up without them? A. The first schedule was made with them on but the fact is no request was made for them. Q. Is there a course in Latin on that schedule? A. No requests were made for Latin. Q. Does there appear upon that schedule any place a course in instrumental music? A. There aren’t any courses given in instrumental music because of the fact that no request have been given up to now. May I say that instrumental music is available. Q. Rut it is not scheduled there? A. It is not scheduled because---- Q. Do you have a course in mechanical drawing appearing there? A. Not on this particular schedule and that is also due to the fact that not enough were available for that particular course. Q. Do you have an exploratory course in shop in t 286 1 the 8th grade, or anywhere else as far as that is con cerned? A. There are some exploratory courses, yes. Q. What exploratory courses? A. Home economics. Q. I said in the shop? ( R. p. 1166) A. We don’t have any in shop at this time. Q. One other question: Do you have a course in shop mathematics appearing on that schedule? A. No requests have been made for shop mathe matics. Q. I ask you does it appear on that schedule? Is there any provision for it? A. No. Q. Is that so? A. Shop mathematics is available. Q. It doesn’t appear upon the schedule? A. No. Q. You have no provision for it on this schedule? A. Not on this schedule. Q. So those courses I named are not available in the sense that they are scheduled for this current year? A. Those courses are available. Q. Isn’t your schedule in operation? A. Certainly this schedule is in operation and I am contending that those courses are available but not enough requests have been made. Q. Were there requests for any of those courses I named other than the ones you spoke of? A. You spoke of bookkeeping and there were a few. Q. Were there requests for any other courses? A. No. [ 2 8 7 1 (R. p. 1187) Q. That is the only one you had re quests for and didn’t keep on your schedule? A. That is right. # # # * # By the Court: Q. None of them that counsel has mentioned is being offered? Is that right? A. May I have something to say? Q. Answer that and make any explanation. A. Yes, none are. (R. p. 1168) By Mr. Ransom: Q. I haven’t asked you for any material and I don’t intend to ask you for anything more except this one question: Do you have a student in your school at the present time by the name of Green — I forget his first name, — who is a student from Arlington County? A. Yes, we have. Q. Is he the only student you have from Arlington County at the present time? A. As far as I know. Q. What course is he taking there? A. He is taking a course in general mechanics. Q. Is that what he applied for when he came there? A. That is what he told me he wanted. Q. He told you he wanted general mechanics? A. Yes, he did. [ 288 1 SIMON L. ALSOP D ir e c t E xamination (R . p. 1171) B y M r . M a r tin : Q. What is your name, please? A. Simon L. Alsop. Q. Where do you live, Mr. Alsop? A. Manassas? Q. What is your occupation? A. Teaching. Q. Where? A. Manassas Regional High School. Q. How long have you been a teacher there? A. Since the start of the school session. Q. In September? A. That is right. Q. And what course of study do you teach? A. I am teaching a coursee in general mechanics. Q. I show you Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 89 which has been identified as the program which is at the present time being taught at Manassas Regiional High School and I notice on that program that Mr. Alsop teaches general metal. Does that Mr. Alsop refer to you? A. The Mr. Alsop refers to me but since this sched- (R. p. 1172) ule there has been a slight change. Q. What change? A. Mr. Smith is general metals teacher and I am the general mechanics teacher. That was a typograph ical errror. # # 4* # # (R. p. 1174) Q. Do you teach any auto mechanics over there? [ 2 8 9 1 A. I do. Q. Since when? A. Since the beginning of the course. Q. When did the couse begin? A. I am afraid I wouldn’t remember the date. Q. The first part of September? When school open ed? A. Not the first part but sometime in September. Q. You began teaching auto mechanics at Manas sas Regional High School? A. Yes. Q. What equipment do you have for teaching auto mechanics? A. I have hand tools. Q. What kind? A. You mean what trade make? Q. I mean what kind of hand tools? What do you have over there to teach auto mechanics with? A. I am afraid I don’t understand. Q. Do you have hammers, saws, wrenches or any metal machinery, metal working machinery of any (R. p. 1175) kind? Do you have a Chevrolet car on which to work? M b . M a r t in : Let the record show that the witness hesitates, if Your Honor please. B y th e C o u rt : Q. Do you understand that question? A. I am afraid I don’t. Q. He wants to know if there is a Chevrolet car at the shop that you use in teaching? A. There is a Chevrolet truck there. [ 290 1 Q. Do you use that in illustrating to the students the different parts of the car? A. Is it the understanding of the Court that that is a new course, a beginners’ class? Q. Any class. You do have a class in auto mechanics, I understood you to say? A. General mechanics and I am teaching auto me chanics. Q. When you teach the students in auto mechanics do you show them how to use automobile tools? A. Such tools as they have been able to use up to this point. What I am trying to say is that they aren’t trained and it will take time for them to get into au~ taomobile over-haul and things of that sort but things like changing tires and minor maintance, I am trying to familiarize them with that sort of thing right now. Q. And you haven’t any students in auto mechanics (R. p. 1176) that are beyond* that stage? A. At the moment, if they are, I haven’t found it out. Q. How do you show them to put on tires and take off tires? How do you go about it? A. Well, I have been giving them the theory I think necessary and then I have taken them out and let them change a wheel just to be changing a wheel. Q. A wheel on what — on the Chevrolet truck or on some other car? A. We have changed wheels on my car, for in stance. Q. Is there a car there specially for the use of the students in taking off tires and putting on tires? A. I don’t know for what purpose the truck has been there but I do know that we had it in the shop I 291 1 for experimental purposes, so far as those purposes are covered. B y Mb . M a r t in : Q. Whose truck is that, Mr. Alsop? A. I am afraid I don’t know that. Q. Is it still there? A. It is. Q. Was it there last night? A. If I am not mistaken, it was there. Q. Do you know Mr. Lester Banks sitting over there. (R. p. 1177) A. You mean was it in the shop? Q. Yes. A. No, it was not in the shop. Q. Where was it? A. I guess it was parked out in front. I didn’t look for it. Q. Whose truck is it? A. I am sorry, I don’t know. Q. Is it a new truck or an old truck? A. It is a good truck. Q. New truck? A. I wouldn’t know if it is new or not. Q. Do you know the year model? A. I am afraid to say. I wouldn’t know the model but I know it is a late model. Q. Are you an automobile mechanic? A. I am. Q. You don’t know the model of this truck? A. If I may say, I am pretty sure that you can't exactly tell the model of a truck, unless you trace the [ 2 9 2 i engine number, just by looking at it because several models are identically the same and that goes for auto mobiles. Q. Your boys are over there working on that track and changing tires and you don’t know who it belongs to? A. I am not interested. (R. p. 1178) Q. Do you know how many miles that truck has on the speedometer? A. I haven’t looked at the speedometer. Q. What kind of tools do you use when you are using somebody else’s truck? You say you change tires. What kind of tools do you give your hoys when you change tires on that truck? A. I usually give them a lug wrench to change the wheel. Q. I am talking about the tires now. A. You would have to have a couple of tire irons and maybe a hammer. Q. You need a jack? A. Yes. Q. You give the boys that jack and tire irons and lug wrench and have them changing tires on that truck? Is that it? A. Well, you recall I believe I said I used my car mostly. ft ft ft ft ft (R. p. 1180) Q. Mr. Alsop, we have found now that you have tire irons, a jack and a lug wrench to teach auto mechanics. What other instruments do you have there to teach auto mechanics? A. If I could have known I could have brought you a list of the instruments that I have but I am afraid it [ 2D3 I wouldn’t be fair to you, or me either, to try to call off a few that we have because 1 might miss some of them and I might call something we don’t have. I will be glad to take an inventory and bring that to you in the very near future. Q. That is ali right. I understood you to say you had been teaching auto mechanics since the first part of September and I understand this is the 25th of Oc tober. Can't you think of any instruments or any equip ment that you have there to teach auto mechanics other than a lug wrench, jack and tire irons? A. Well, you see, there is quite a bit of theory. I don’t know if you have thought about that. Q. You teach the theory of auto mechanics, too? A. That is right, yes, I try to. Q. And changing tires? A. Well, not necessarily changing tires but theory. * * & # # (R. p. 1181) Q. Do you have any motor analyzers there? A. No. & Q. Do you have any practice engines there, auto mobile engines, other than your car and somebody else’s track? A. I think there are to be or there is to be an engine. Q. I don’t believe you understood my question. I asked you if there are any there now? A. Not that I know of. Q. Do you have a drill press there used in auto mechanics? A. I do. Q. Do you have a valve grinder? A. No. ' I 2 9 4 1 Q. Do you have any armature lathes? 1 don’t mean your regular general metal lathes, but armature lathes for automobile mechanics? A. As far as I know, they are on order. Q. Do you know what an armature lathe is, Mr. Akop? A. I think I do. Q. You are not sure? A. I am sure I do. Q. Do you have a chain hoist there to hoist those automobile engines up? A. No. Q. Do you have any battery chargers? (K, p. 1182) A. No, but we have generators. Q. You don’t have a battery charger? A. No. Q. Do you have any air compressing machines? A. You mean just air compressors? Q. Yes. A. We are in the process of building one now. Q. You are building your own air compressor? A, I should have said remodeling. Q. What do you mean — remodeling? A. We had to repair the tank. Q. Where did you get that tank? A. It was the one used in the old shop, I under stand. I don’t know too much about the machinery. Q. Is it in working condition at the present time? A. We are working on it. Q. Do you have any speedometers there, experi mental speedometers, that you use in automobile me chanics? A. Any what? Q. Experimental speedometers? You know, a speed ometer on an automobile? A. No, I don’t think you will find mechanics ex perimenting on speedometers. They are usually sent to speedometer specialists. (R. p. 1183) Q. Isn’t your general mechanics course at Manassas primarily an exploratory course in (R. p. 1184) vocational mechanics? A. Would you mind explaining? Q. Don’t you just teach the students who come there in the first year, teaching them the general idea of mechanics and mechanical ability so they can take specialized courses in mechanics later? A. I am afraid I don’t quite understand you. I would like to say this: The course is going to have to be a beginners’ course because they do not have mechan ical background or, I should have said, mechanical ex perience heretofore. They haven’t had. Q. And you don’t have mechanical tools, either, do you, to teach a general course in auto mechanics? A. I have quite a few hand tools. Q. Do you recall talking with me about two or three weeks ago when I was up there one Saturday? A. I have talked to so many people. Q. Do you remember that day when myself and Mr. Robinson and Mr. Banks and Mr. Picott and Mr. Broadnax came up there and took pictures in that shop and every instrument you showed us in that shop and you went around with us all over that shop? Don’t you recall that? A. I remember somebody taking pictures. Q. Don’t you recall Mr. Bennett carried us over [ 2 9 6 1 there and introduced us to you? Do you recall that? A. I remember it. (B. p. 1185) Q. And do you recall talking with me about your course of study there at that time? A. I don’t recall talking to you concerning the course of study, but talked to somebody. Q. Do you recall telling me, Mr. Alsop, in the pres ence of Mr. Robinson, Mr. Banks, Mr. Picott and Mr. Broadnax that you didn’t have any course in auto me chanics? Don’t you recall that? A, I recall telling you that I had a course in general mechanics. Q. And don’t you recall telling me that is all you had? A. I still say that I have a course in general me chanics.' Q. And that is all you have got over there, isn’t it? A, I don’t understand what you mean — all I have. Q. Is the equipment to teach a course in general mechanics an exploratory course in general mechanics to give the rudiments of all of these other courses? Isn’t that right, Mr. Alsop? A. You are saying I don’t have auto mechanics at all? Is that what you are saying? # # # * # (R. p. 1186) Q. Mr. Alsop, I will ask you tins ques tion: Do you have any facilities or any equipment to teach transfer students, say third year- students, auto mechanics who came over there and wanted a course? Do you have any facilities or equipment or anything to teach them that? A. I have some equipment. Q. What? 1 2 9 7 ] A. To teach auto mechanics, but I couldn’t say my equipment is adequate or is like it should be by any means but I can’t say by the same means that I don’t have any equipment. * & # * # (R. p. 1187) Q. What would be the necessary in struments and facilities that you would need to teach a second year course in auto mechanics? A. You would have to give me a little time. Q. You can’t think of it offhand? A. All of the tools and equipment that I am going to need to set up a second year automobile mechanics training shop. Q. First, second and third year? A general course? How many years does a general course in automobile mechanics last? A. That depends. Q. It depends on what? A. On the set-up of the course. # * * # # WILLIAM HENRY BARNES D ir e c t E xamination (R . p. 1 189) B y M r . R obinson : Q. State your name? A. William Henry Barnes. Q. Your residence? A. Manassas, Virginia. Q. Your age? (R. p. 1190) A. Forty-six. [ 298 1 Q. Where do you reside, Dr. Barnes? What is your present position. A. I am an educator. Q. And what postion do you occupy and where at the present time? A. Chairman of the Department of General Ed ucation at Wilburforce State College, Wilburforce, Ohio. Q. Please state whether or not in the past you have had any connection with the Manassas Regional High School at Manassas, Virginia? A. For thirteen years I was Pdincipal of the Ma nassas Regional High School, being the first Regional High School in the State of Virginia. Q. Will you state when your connectiion with that institution terminated? A. My connection with the Manassas Regional High School terminated on August 15, 1949. Q. Dr. Barnes, will you state for the information of the Court your educational qualifications? A. Besides Bachelor’s Degree from Wilburforce, I hold a graduate degree in Theology from Payne Theo logical Seminary. I will give this in the order in which it occurred. Q. You mentioned a Bachelor? A. Bachelor of Arts, above that a Bachelor of Di- (R. p. 1191) vinity from Payne Theological Seminar)7, two consecutive summers in the School of Social Ad ministration at Ohio State University. I took a Master of Arts Degree from the School of Education at Boston University and two consecutive summers at Harvard University in the School of Education there. Q. Do you have any honorary degrees? L 2 9 9 ] A. I have an honorary degree, Doctor of Laws. Q. What institution? A. Wilburforce University. Q. Please state for the information of the Court what if any, affiliation or connections you have with organizations or institutions in the field of education. A. For seven years I was connected with the Hender son Institute at Hendreson, North Carolina, as the As sistant Principal there. I came from there to the Manas sas School where I was Principal. I have been President of the Virginia State Teachers Association. For three consecutive summers I was instructor at the Laboratory School of Boston University, located at Hillsboro, New Hampshire. Only white students were in attendence there. Q. Please state whether or not you have in the past had any connection the Denny Commission? A. I was also a member of the Denny Commission, one of the sub-coommittees. M r . R obin son : We desire to tender this wit- (R. p. 1192) ness as an expert for such questions of expert testimony as we may desire to elicit from him. His examination apparently will con sist in non-expert testimony but I want him for the purpose if we should desire to go into matters of expert opinion. T he C o u r t : All right. M r . D ouglas: No questions. B y M r . R obinson : Q. In his testimony Mr. Broadnax made reference [ 3 0 0 ] to a dining room at Manassas Regional School. Is that a permnent affair there, so far as you know? A. The dining room at Manassas is in connection with the residence project. Since I have been away, since August 15th, I understand now that it is being used as a cafeteria. It is of small space and the ques tion is whether or not it would be adequate as a cafe teria because it could only seat about forty pupils, maybe fifty — let us say fifty pupils comfortably. (R. p. 1193) Q. Where is the auditorium of that institution, located? A. The auditorium is located, as was testified here, in the attic of the Carnegie Building. Q. And for what purpose is it? A. On the third floor. Q. For what purpose is that bulding used? A. The Carnegie Building is generally conceived of as the classroom building. Q. Is it a fireproof building? A. The building is not a fireproof building. Q. How many exits do you have to this auditor- iujn? A. There are three exits, one in the front and one on either end. # * # * # Q. When were you the last time at the Regional School? A. My home is right off the campus and I see it (R. p. 1194) practically every day. Q. When was the last time you saw there? A. This morning when I left home. Q. In your previous testimony and in your testi- [ 3 0 1 1 mony to follow have you and will you be testifying as to conditions as of the present time? A. There are conditions that I can only testify as of August 15th when I left. Q. Will you state, in connection with your subse quent testimony, whether the testimony which you are giving relates to conditions as of August 15th or as of the present time. A. I will. Q. Let us check back for a moment. The auditor ium — are they the present conditions there or as of August 15th? A. I only know as of August 15th. Q. The cafeteria? A. As of August 15th. (R. p. 1195) Q. Are there any locker facilities for the pupils at Manassas or were there as of August 15th of this year? A. As of August 15th of this year in the classroom, there are no locker facilities. In the new shop building, however, there are locker facilities. Q. Will you state for the information of the Court the last time you made an inspection of the new shop building? A. I asked the Principal’s permission on Friday, this past week, after I had arrived home, if he would per mit me to look around and I went in the new shop building at that time. Q. Did you inspect it throughout? A. I did. & # # # [ 302 ] Q. Dr. Barnes, I show you Plaintiff’s Exhibit Nos. 77, 78 and 79 which are in evidence in this case and I will ask you to examine them and state for the in formation of the Court whether they show all or sub stantially most of the equipment in the three shops which those photographs portray? A. Exhibit No. 79, general carpentry, that is all that is in the shop, as I saw it on Friday. Q. Would you examine Exhibit 78? A. Exhibit 78 is the masonry shop, the general ma sonry shop with the exception of some brickwork that was put up there on Friday where probably the class in instruction had been carried on. Everything is there with the exception of the brickwork. Q. Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 77? A. That is the general mechanics shop. That was (R. p.1197) all the equipment that I saw in the shop on Friday. & * * # # (R. p. 1199) Q. Do you know whether or not the course in general mechanics or the course in general carpentry or general masonry or general metals, or either of those courses, is what is known as an explora tory course? A. The course in general mechanics — may I say this? A study was made of the Washington and Lee, not knowing that this would be brought in at this time, in May, of the Washington and Lee vocational set-up. Q. Who conducted that study? A. I conducted that study in company with the four shop teachers who had worked with me for a number of years. Q. And for what purpose was that study made? [ 3 0 3 ] A. That study was made in order to set up an ad equate shop program for the instruction of negro youth at Manassas in view of the fact that we were going in to a new shop. Q. To he modeled after the set-up of vocational subjects at Washington and Lee? A. Certainly. I was referred by the State Board of Education to see Washington and Lee set-up because they had a model set-up for the State, I understand one of the best set-ups for vocational training in the State of Virginia. O. Are you thinking of Washington and Lee High (R. p. 1200) School in Arlington County? A. Washington and Lee High School in Arlington County, I am speaking of. Q. Will you proceed? A. We came over and made a study of that pro gram. Mr. Ormes, who is head of the shop, was very courteous and all of the instructors — in conference with all of the instructors of that shop they explained to us the system that they had and it having been re commended by the State Board of Education, we set out a program. This program was revised in order to meet the needs of the pupils in this area and it was presented in the Board Meeting to the Joint Commit tee for Control for approval in the April meeting. Q. Dr. Barnes, do you have a copy of your report as Principal, made to the Joint Committtee for Control of Manassas Regional School at its April meeting? A. I have it before me. Q. Is that report now a part of the official records of that institution? A. The minutes will show that the report of the Prin- [ 304 1 cipa! was accepted and filed as a part of the minutes of the meeting. Q. Will you state whether or not the paper which I now hand you is a copy of the report which you have just mentioned? (R. p. 1201) A. This is a copy of the report which I have just mentioned. Q. Will you state for the information of the Court whether in this report you went into a proposed set up for vocational courses to he offered at Manassas Regional High School? A. This report is a proposed set-up for the Regional High School, including the equipment necessary to im plement the courses that were proposed. # # # * * Q. Will you state whether or not the recommeda- tions set forth in your report were followed by the au thorities responsible for the conducting of the school? A. Up to August 15th that report had not been ac cepted. Q. Have you upon other occasions made recom mendations and requests to the Committee for Joint Control of that school, which recommedations have not been followed? A. I have. Q. Do you have copies of the reports containing those recommendations? (R. p. 1202) A. I do. Q. Dr. Barnes, I hand you three papers purporting respectively to be copies of, first, a report on the status of the Manassas Regional High School dated January 16, 1946; secondly, a copy purporting to be a copy of the Principal’s report to the Joint Committee for Con f 305 1 trol at the February meeting and a copy purporting to be a copy of the Principal’s report to the Joint Com- rnitte of Control at the March meeting and I ask you to examine them and state for the information of tire Court whether they are the reports, or some of the re ports, to which you have referred? A. These are the reports to which I have referred. (R. p. 1203) Q. Will you state for the information of the Court the year? A. Of course, there is one report that dates back to January, 1946. B y t h e C o u r t : Q. What is the date of the other report? A. February and March meeting. Q. Of this year? A. Of this year. * # # # # ( R . p . 1206) B y M r . R o b in s o n : Q. Were you familiar with the Joint Committee for Control pursuant to which the Regional School for Manassas was operated? A. I am, Mr. Counsel, and the fact that this was the first Regional School and all of the legilation---- T he C o u r t : He asked you if you were fam iliar with it. B y M r . R o b in s o n : Q. Will you state for the information of the Court what general policy is pursued relative to teachers’ sal [ 306 ] aries, relative to instructional program, and the other (R. p. 1207) phases of the educational process there? A. The school is operated by the Joint Committee for Control according to legislative enactment. It is made up of representatives from the County School Boards that have equity in the property there. Q. Would you name those, those School Boards? A. Fauquier, Fairfax and Prince William. Two members of each of those County School Boards are on it and then the Superintendents are also consultants or ex-officio members of the Board. The Board elects its Chairman and appoints an Executive Officer. Q. Will you state for the information of the Court whether or not the Committee for Joint Control of the Manassas Regional School follows any general policy with respect to its activities in the conducting of that school? A, It is the general policy of the Joint Committee for control to operate in conformity with the policies of Prince William County in which the school is lo cated. Q. Do you have any written evidence of that de claration of the policy by the Joint Committee for Con trol? A. Yes, I do. Q- Will you state for the infomation of the Court what evidence in that connection you have? A. I have a report that I presented to the Joint Committee for Control after laboring with the people (R. p. 1208) of this area and finding out their dis satisfaction as to the manner in which — I pointed out to the Board of Control in which they had passed a certain resolution which placed the operation of the [ 307 I Regional School under the administrative polices of Prince William County and in this report dated June 10, 1949, I called attention to that fact and asked that some consideration be given in not confining the op eration of the Manassas Regional School to the policies of Prince William County but take into consideration the needs and interests of taxpayers in Fairfax and Fau- quir County and any other County that was partici pating in this project, should they come in later on. Q. Is this the report? A. That is the report. Q. Will you state whether or not this was a report submitted to the Committte for Joint Control by you as Principal of that institution? A. The report of the Principal, June 10, 1949, to the Joint Committee for Control of the Regional High School. # # # # # Q. In what ways or in what different phases of the educational process there has that policy been pursued? For example, has it been pursued with reference to the (R. p. 1209) amount of teachers’ salaries to be paid? A. By the way, that was the thing that brought about that resolution — the matter of teachers’ salaries. The teachers felt, since they were teaching Fairfax County chlidren---- B y t h e C o u r t : Q. The question was — was it followed in respect to salaries? A. It was followed in respect to salaries. Did you ask for any reason? [ 308 ] B y M r . R o b in s o n : Q. Dr. Barnes, did that policy cause you any diffi culty as Principal of that institution in securing com petent teachers? A. It did. Q. Will you state for the information of the Court how it caused you difficulty? A. Teachers remained very much dissatisfied and, as Principal, I realized the best education could not be received by these children with dissatisfaction in the staff and for that reason I brought it to the attention of the Board. Q. How did and how do the average salaries paid to teachers in Prince William County compare with the averages in Fauquier and Fairfax Counties? A. According to my recollection, I think Prince Will iam County has the lowest salary scale of any of the (R. p. 1210) participating counties in the Regional High School plan. Q. Please state whether or not pursuant to this policy any dissatisfaction arose with reference to the institution of a twelve-year program at Manassas Re gional School? A. The reports which have been submitted as evi dence will show that in 1948 a request was made, or thereabouts, according to my recollection, for the institution of a twelve-year system because Fairfax had a twelve-year system. Prince William did not have a twelve-year system and hence the Board would not institute a twelve-year system until Prince William County School Board decided that it wanted the twelve year system and could afford it, and hence, in March, 1949, which I think that report will show, they, the [ 309 3 Prince William County School Board, decided on a twelve-year system for the Regional High School, Q. Dr. Barnes, will you state the policy of Prince William County with reference to gymnasium facili ties and gymnasiums at the high schools in that county? A. There is no gymnasium at the Regional High School. There are gymnasiums used by the Osborne High School and also I don’t thnik there is over at the Vocational School itself, being used as a gymnasium. I think the crowded condition makes that a classroom. Q. Will you state for the information of the Court whether there was any delay in the construction of the (Ft. p. 1211) new vocational building at Manassas which has been the subject of considerable testimony here? A. Yes, I will. Q. There was delay. Q. Will you state briefly what the occasion for that delay was? ft ft ft ft ft A. The occasion was that the $75,000.00 remained in Richmond over a period of two or three years before it was used to construct the shop building. ft ft ft ft ft Q. I have a couple of further questions to ask you. (R. p. 1212) Are you familiar with the value of science equipment at Manassas Regional High School as of the date you left? A. I think so. Q. Will you state for the information of the Court the approximate value of the science equipment there? [ 310 1 A. Well, I would estimate the approximate value as being less than a thousand dollars. Q. Do you recall the number of magazines and newspapers subscriptions at that institution as of the date that you left there? A. I do. Q. Will you state the figures in that connection? A. In my last school year we had approximately a subscription of 48 magazines. Will you permit further comment? Q. Make it brief, please, A. That 48 magazines were not supplied by the School Board; they were supplied out of funds that the citizens of Northern Virginia assisted the librarian in subscribing to magazines for the school. Q. Dr. Barnes, what if any, amount of indoor space is available at Manassas Regional School for physical education? A. There is no indoor space provided at Manassas Regional School for physical education. # # # # # J. RUPPERT PICOTT (Recalled) D ir e c t E xamination B y M r . R obinson : * « # # it (R. p. 1214) Q. Mr. Picott, please state whether or not you have had an occasion to make an inspection of the Manassas Regional High School for negroes at Ma - nassas, Virginia? [ 311 1 A. I visited it once since the hearing here in Sep tember. Q. Did you make an inspection or examination of facilities at that institution? A. Yes, I did, in company with several other per- (R. p. 1215) sons. Q. Do you recall the date on which that examina tion was had? A. I recall the latter part of September, 1 think it was. I am not sure of the exact date. Q. And I believe you previously testified that you had also made an examination of the facilities at Wash ington and Lee High School in Arlington County, Vir ginia? A. Yes. Q. Mr. Picott, please state whether or not upon your examination you saw at Manassas Regional School any gymnasium or gymnasium facilities or art: rooms or band auditorium, bookkeeping classrooms, distributive education rooms, guidance office, music room or teachers’ lounges? A. I do not recall seeing any of those facilities. Q. Please state whether or not, in your opinion, the auditorium facilities, cafeteria facilities, library faci lities, athletic facilities, classrooms, corridors, lavatories and science rooms at the Manassas Regional School are equal to, unequal to or equivalent of the same facilities, respectively at the Washington and Lee High School? A. It is unequal. I can enlarge on that. Q. Is it your opinion that each of these facilities is unequal to the same facility at Washington and Lee High School? A. As last mentioned, as called by you, yes. [ 312 3 (R. p. 1216) Q. When you say unequal, will you state whether or not you mean inferior or superior? A. The word is inferior. If I might give an explana tion of one of them, I think it would serve for the others. Q. Confine yourself to that. A. For example, the auditorium at Manassas is on the third floor and the day we were there it was ter ribly crowded, most inaccessible and I think inadequate and unattractive in appearance, whereas just the op posite was true of Washington and Lee School. # # # # # (R. p. 1217) Q. Upon your inspection in Septem ber of the facilities at that institution, did you see your self any equipment or any facilities for instructor! in vocation courses other than those which have been testified to on today? A. No, I did not. Let me answer it in the affirma tive — I did not see it. C ross E xamination B y M r . D ouglas: Q. The day you were over there I understand there was an assembly of the school in the auditorium? A. Yes, there was before we left. * * « # # (R. p. 1218) Q. The auditorium was pretty well crowded at that time? A. Quite. * * * # # ( R. p. 1221) Q. Let me ask you about the laboratory f 313 J facilities over at Manassas. Did you examine those? A. Yes, I did. * * « * * Q. I show you a photograph identified as Plaintiff’s Exhibit 83 and ask you to state whether or not that in dicates space for individual students working by the research method? A. This picture shows this space for working was in usch dilapidated shape —- and I mean just that — (R. p. 1222) that I asked the person who was in the room was it ever used. The bottles were in the comer, as you see, and the picture adequately portrays it and the answer which I recieved from one of the teachers was that as of the time we were there it had not even been used. As a matter of fact, I doubt if it had been cleaned. # # & # & Q. You were there last September, the latter part of September? A. Or the first of October. Q. Was Carnegie Hall then being fully remodeled? A. No, Carnegie Hail is in bad shape. The flooring is in bad shape. As a matter of fact, what Carnegie Hall needs perhaps is not a remodeling job but a much more drastic approach to it. * * * * # Red irec t E xamination (R . p. 1224) Q. B y M r . R obin son : Q. In your professional opinion are the facilities [ 3 14 1 which are afforded at Manassas Regional School for education of a pupil who desires a vocational course equal to or unequal to or comparable to the facilities available at Washington and Lee High School for a (R. p. 1225) pupil who desires to attend there for a vocational course? A. I must base my answer on the last visit when 1 was there and, as of that time, they were not, in my opinion. DR. MARTIN D. JENKINS (Recalled) Direct E xamination (R. p. 1226) B y Mr . Ransom: Q. Dr. Jenkins, you were in court yesterday when Dr. Dawson testified? A. A large part of the time. Q. Did you hear him testify to the effect that he made his examination of Hoffman-Boston School his first examination on the last day of the school term and went back once, I think, during the summer when school was not in session? A. I certainly heard him make the first statement. I don’t know about his visit during the summer. Q. When did you make your examination of the (R. p. 1227) school? A. The specific date I don’t recall but I visited both the Hoffman-Boston and Washington and Lee Schools in the middle of the year when schools were in regular session and regular class work was being conducted. [ 3 1 5 ] Q. And observed the comparative efficiency and activities of the school while they were in actual op eration? A. To the extent that I indicated in my previous testimony. Q, Dr. Jenkins, are you familiar with the entrance requirements of universities throughout the country and particularly, let ns say, Howard University? A. I am. Q. Let us assume, sir, that a student applying at Howard University, for example, with, among her cred its for admission from graduation from high school, one year of Latin, would that student be admitted to the University? A. I may say that I am going to describe the prac tice at Howard which I will say would be general in American imiversitiees. Howard will require two years of a foreign language, Latin being defined as a foreign language. If a student were to present only one year, the student would be admitted on condition and then would take the equivalent of the second year of Latin in college and be given entrance credit for it rather than college credit, so that a student who presents one year of Latin is in a better position than one who has (R, p. 1228) no language credit to present. Q. At my request I had an assistant examine cer tain volumes or publications dealing with education, particularly with the problem of the values or efficiency of large and small secondary schools. Have you at my request examined the excerpts from these books? A. I have. Q. I am going to offer these to you and ask you to identify them and read what you consider to be the f 8 1 6 I pertinent portion. Will you tell the Court what that volume is and refer to the section from which you read? A. This is The Encylopedia of Educational Re search prepared under the auspices of the American Educational Research Association. The editor is Walter S. Monroe who is Professor of Education at the Univer sity of Illinios. This book, which was prepared actually by several hundred experts in the field of education, is an authoritative summary of the status of research in various fields and general practice in education. When you want to learn what is going on in a particu lar area, you first have access to this volume to get a summary. There is a statement here relative to secondary ed ucation. This summary was prepared by Dr. Arwood Northby of the University of New Hampshire, and I will quote. This is under the general heading “Secon dary Education,” under the sub-heading “Organiza tion,’' and under the further sub-heading, “Size of School,” and, as I indicated, this does not express Dr. :N ortliby’s opinion necessarily, except conclusions (R. p. 1299) drawn. This represents a summary of the research in this field. (R . p. 1230) B y t h e C o u rt : Q. D oes that express your opinion, too, Doctor? A. Yes. M r . D ouglas: I will withdraw the o b jed tion. [ 317 1 A. I am quoting on page 1079: “Investigations concerning the effect of school size upon school organ ization and administration may be classified into two groups. In the first are the surveys of small high schools and in the second the comparative studies of schools of different sizes. Both types of investigations reveal that the small secondary school possesses num erous limitations such as, for example, a limited, nar row curriculum and over-burden teaching staff and an inadequate plant and equipment. The comparative studies show that an increase in school size is usually accompanied by decrease in school costs and increase in the curricular and extra-curricular offering and an increase in the number of desirable organizational and administative procedures. On the basis of the criteria employed, these investigations indicate a minimum, en rollment of from fifty to sixty pupils per grade for effective school operation.” (R. p. 1231) I want to insert a comment at that point. The definition “fifty to sixty pupils per grade”, means fifty to sixty pupils in the 12th grade, 111 h grade, 10th grade, and so on, in each of such grades. I am now continuing the quotation: “Increase in school efficiency continues with increases in school size until enrollments of from 150 to 200 pupils per grade are reached. Beyond this point improvements attributable to school size are few. “When school size is expressed in terms of the size of the teaching staff, results of investigation based upon present standards for the scope and organization of the curriculum for teaching load indicate that from 8 to 10 teachers as the minimum necessary for the opera tion of an efficient school. Size of a school enrollment [ 3 1 8 ] operates as a conditioning factor regardless of the type of organization.” # # # # # (R. p. 1232) Q. Dr. Jenkins, will you comment upon that quotation you just read? A. The comment is that this shows clearly enough for most any professional educator, at least, that the preponderance of research evidence indicates that the small high school does not yield as good educational (R. p. 1233) outcome as the large high school up to the point of largeness as indicated in the article. * # $ # ( R.p 1236) Q. Under the problem of administra tion in small schools is it your opinion that financial problems arising from one or more of the following factors — insufficient State aid, inadequate support of high schools, excessive cost of the small high schools, low assessed valuation, high per capita costs, the varied ability of the district to provide funds and the reluct ance of the School Board to provide funds for services, coupled with fixed budget, all tend to make adminis tration in a small school more difficult than in a large school? (R. p. 1237) A. That problem exists. Q. Is there another problem such as the fact that the plant and equipment usually are inadequate or are poorly planned for functional program and that there fore there are limited instructional aids as a problem of administration? A. It is. Q. Is it likewise a problem that because of the smallness of enrollement there is a prohibition against [ 3 1 9 1 the divesity of elective offerings which may prevent class stimulation and which makes for a lack of com petition in the classes? Is that another problem of ad ministration? A. Yes, that is another problem, Q. Does the very fact of the smallness of the ad ministration unit effect the administration? A. Yes. Q. Are there organizational problems in the small school which affect administration which are not ex- istant or, at least, not as extensive in a large school which again affect the administration? A. Yes. Q. As to the program of the school, would the re stricted curriculum offering, the tendency to adhere to traditional curricula the domination by colleges over the question of curriculum with an insufficient recogni tion of the importance of building the curriculum in terms of the problems and in the opportunity found in (R. p. 1238) the immediate environment and of the needs of the youth — will that in a small school create a problem so far as programs are concerned? A. Yes. Q. The fact that in a small school you can have very little or no special services such as health and guidance — does that again affect the program adver sely? A. Yes. Q. The fact that there has to be necessarily limited pupil activity — is that an adverse factor insofar as your program is concerned? A. Yes. Q. And in a small school, because there can be t 8 20 1 very limited or no vocational educative program, does that affect your general program? A. Yes. Q. And, finally, insofar as your staff is concerned, the fact that often in small schools you find inexper ienced teachers who are inadequately prepared or are ineffective or without understanding of the rural pro blems, the fact that there may be a shortage of good teachers available to small schools and teachers who are not as well trained or not well trained by teacher education institutions — is that an adverse factor so far as your staff is concerned? A. In small schools generally. (R. p. 1239) Q. And in a small school, because you have a small staff, plus your inability therefore to em ploy sufficient supervisory personnel and specialized teachers — is that an adverse factor? A. Yes. # # # * # (R. p 1240) Q. In view of the factors that I have (R. p. 1241) named, would you say that your opinion as to the relative effectiveness or efficiency of the small school against the large school which you have earlier expressed is still the same? A. Yes. May I amplify that? What I am doing here is expressing an opinion about large schools and small schools generally without reference to any particular large or small school. I would also like to point out, however, that in this publication which has been pub lished after my original survey of these two schools that many of the points mentioned there as problems were mentioned in my survey or study as problems of the Hoffman-Boston School, [ 321 ] Q. And when you expressed that opinion which you have just expressed now, you are adopting the opinion that appears in a bulletin, an official bulletin, of the Federal Security Agency, Office of Education? A. I wouldn’t quite like to put it that way, Mr Ran som, because I had expressed that opinion before this was published. They are concurrent opinions. Q. I will hand you this document and ask you to identify it. A. This is from the Bulletin of the State Board of Education, published in Richmond, Virginia, a Study of the Efficiency in Relation to Size of High School by M. L. Combs, who was with the Division of Research and Surveys. This is a study in which the State Depart- (R. p. 1242) ment of Education was concerned with the effect of size on efficiency of schools. « # £ # (R. p. 1244) A. May I add this? By Mr. Ransom: Q. Complete your answer. A. I wanted simply to substantiate the opinion mentioned by the Court that this is not a statement of policy, The State Department may have arrived at a policy after a study of this kind but this is a study which was issued by the State Department of Educa- tion. Q. Yesterday the statement was made in examina tion — A. I would like to add that there is an additional statement of policy, however. Q I am glad you called my atention to it. Will you identify this document? t 322 1 A, This is a mimeographed document by the State (R. p. 1245) Board of Education entitled “A Compre hensive Program of Education for Virginia Schools”, and I would interpret this as a statement of policy by the State Department of Education. To point out the distinction, this study is a study which is published by the State Department. This is, in my opinion, a state ment of policy. $ * « * * (R. p. 1247) Q. The statement was made by Dr. Dawson that it is the general agreement among edu cators that the great majority — it was a question ad dressed to him on page 841: “That is your personal be lief, but it is the general agreement among educators, that is, a great majority of educators, that they believe that a large school is a much better school, more effi cient in all respects than a small school.” His answer was: “No; among people who specialize in the admin istration of schools of medium and small size, that cer tainly would not be true.” Is that a true statement as to the majority view, in your opinion? A. I think there is no question but that the majority view among educators is that a large school is superior to a small school in its educational outcome and pos sibility for development of children and in economy. They are defining a large high school in terms of a high (R. p. 1248) school of, let us say, 800 or 1,000 pupils and they are thinking of small high schools as being high schools even larger than Hoffman-Boston, so I would say that Dr. Dawson’s comment certainly flies in the face of the literature and of the excerpts which were read. L 3 2 3 1 B y th e C o u rt : Q. Regardless of wliat the majortiy opinion is, wliat, in your opinion, is the better thought on the subject? A. I have already expressed that, that my own. op inion is that a large high school as defined, not too large a high school, is superior to a small high school. I was addressing my comment to the question you asked about Dr. Dawson's statement about what the majority of educators thought. & & # # C ross E xamination B y M r . D ouglas: Q. You speak, in giving your opinion as to the question asked you — you are qualifying that by saying you are speaking of a large high school but one that is not too large. What number would you put on the large high school by way of defining the maximum (R. p. 1249) enrollment beyond which the peak of efficiency would be passed? A. I would think that these large metropolitan high schools with three, four, five, six or seven thousand pupils would be too large. I would think a high school of two thousand pupils would not be too large, al though, larger than optimum. Q. Larger than optimum but not too large? A. That is right. ELLIS O. KNOX (Recalled) D ir e c t E xamination B y M r . Ne w s o m : Q. Dr. Knox, you have testified previously in this [ 324 1 case and qualified as an expert. Assuming that it were testified yesterday by Dr. Dawson, beginning on page 722 — I will not read all of the question but there is a quotation addressed to the Doctor from his own re port that “The chief result of having to maintain seg regated schools in Arlington County is the difference in the size of the two schools under consideration.” Going on. over to the following page and a continu ation of that question, it is asked whether or not it (R. p. 1250) would be possible for the student in the smaller school, such as Hoffman-Boston, to get an ed ucation — comparable educational opportunities and facilities to one in a high school having a total popu lation of 1881. The answer is, “It would be possible for a student in the small school to get a comparable education within the limits of the minimum standard of education required by the State. They could not get identical educational opportunities. Of course, there are certain courses in large schools that are uneconom ical to offer in. a small school and there are differences, to be sure.” I do not know whether you have expressed an opin ion on that before. I wasn’t able to find it in the record. I wanted to ask you what is your opinion. Should there be any difference in the opportunity to get an educa tion, to get equal education, without any difference at all because of the size of the schools where they are segregated because of race or color? A No, there should be no difference because of size, regardless of the cause of the size. Q, I want to direct your attention to another quota tion of yesterday on which I have not had your opinion before. There is an answer made yesterday: “Eduea- [ 325 J tion is always supposed to be adapted to the pupils being educated in the community in which they lived (R. p, 1251) Going on down — “That is the broad general purpose of education,” On that, if the school’s purpose is to adapt or to furnish the education to the needs of the community, should there be any distinction in the type of education offered where the pupils are segregated on the basis of race? A. No, there should be no distinction. The educa tional opportunities, if I may expend it, should be equal to every child in the community regardless of race and every child should have an equal chance to profit from and participate in the opportunities of that community, Q. Suppose that it was said that “Unfortunately, under the Constitution and Laws of Virginia there are two separate communities, even if they do live next door to each other, and what I said is just as applicable. You remember I pointd out what would happen in a county all under the same Board of Education. In other words, you run right square into this segregation busi ness, which I can’t do anything about.” If that answer were made to a question as to whether or not it was wise Or economically unsound to offer courses in one school because of the fact that it couldn’t be offered in another school because of the fact that the school was small or that it was economically unsound, would you say that is sufficient justification for saying to one group of children, “You can’t have the type of educa- (R. p. 1252) tion that is being offered to us?” # # # * # (R. p. 1253) Q. Do you agree or disagree with that statement? 1 328 1 A. I disagree with the statement and I would like to explain the reason why I disgree, because whenever we have schools operating in communities subject to laws such as those in the State of Virginia, the whole matter of economy must be redef ined and must be dealt with in light of educational opportunities for children. Q. When you testified before I asked you to com ment at that time upon the statement made in Dr. Dawson’s report to the effect that certain courses which are given at Washington and Lee School and which are not given at Hoffman-Boston could be effectively given at Hoffman-Boston under a system of supervised study. (Pi. p. 1254) I believe at that time you were unable to answer because of the fact that you did not under stand the meaning of “supervised correspondence study.” Assuming that Dr. Dawson explained that yes terday as follows: “The lessons are prepared in serial, ordinarily by a qualified teacher of solid geometry, based upon a textbook, and including exercises de signed to enable the student to master the subject. He studies that subject more or less on his own time, or sometimes it is assigned to him in school, and he is given such direct or also incidental assistance from a teacher in the school as he may need. You simply do not have a formal recitation of, say, fifty-five minutes, five days a week. He is graded and his papers are sent in to the school that offer's the course. He is graded, the papers are returned to the teacher. When he has completed the course, he receives a high school unit of credit just as if he had taken it in a regular class in high school.” Skipping the portion as to the number of courses so taught, “It has been demonstrated it can be done very well.” [ 327 1 Previous to that this statement was made: “It Is call ed ‘supervisoury’ because it is under the supervision of a teacher and, by the way, it is sometimes supervised by a teacher who is not a specialist in a given subject matter.” Will you give the Court the benefit of your opinion ( I t p. 1255) on the efficacy of that type of education and whether or not it constitutes equality of teaching with that given in a school where the students are taught in a formal class by a regular teacher. A. It is my opinion that that type of education, if that Is what is meant by “supervisory extension work”, is certainly not as efficient as instruction given in the classroom and that it certainly is of a lower level of value than courses offered students on the secondary and, for that matter, any other level where there is op portunity for direct contact between the teacher and the student for the basic reason that any such exten sion work places a premium upon written expressions and the interpretation of written material on the part of the instructor, while at a classroom situation there is opportunity for judging both oral and written expres sions with the concommitant intellectural and emo tional values which are a part of grading any pupil for his classroom instruction. Q. Assuming that courses are given at one school in a regular class and because under a system then in vogue persons who happen to be members of the negro race are required to attend another school where those same courses are not given and the course is given to that student who desires it by this supervised corres pondence method, would you say that is discrimination On account of race? [ 328 3 & R. WORTH PETERS D i r e c t E x a m in a t io n ( R . p . 1256) B y M r . D o u g l a s : Q. Will you state your full name and address? A. R. Worth Peters, Manassas, Virginia. Q. What is your profession? A. I am Superintendent of Schools in Prince Will iam County. Q. Plow long have you held that office? A. A little over three years. Q. And by virtue of your office are you the Super vising Director or do you have within your system the Regional Vocational School at Manassas about which there has been testimony here today? (R. p. 1257) A. As Executive Officer of the Board of Control, I have the responsibility for the supervision of that school, yes. * * * * * (R. p. 1261) Q. Do you have a course in sheet metal work? A. As a part of general metals. Q. You don’t have a course in sheet metal work? A. No. Q. Do you have a course in printing? A. No. * * * * * (R. p. 1264) Q. Do you know who owns that Chev rolet truck they were talking about this morning? f 329 1 A, No, frankly, I don’t know. I don’t know what Chevrolet truck they are referring to. Q. Do you have any experimental automobile there for the students to use in the automobile shop? A. The policy in the conduct of auto mechanics shop, so far as Prince William County is concerned, including the Regional High School, is to utilize what ever equipment is available for instructional purposes, regardless of whether it is owned by the school or by private individuals. We quite often take a private car under certain conditions into a shop for instructional purposes and do overhaul or other jobs on it, but, as was testified this morning, the students of this class are not yet advanced to the point that they can do an overhaul job or a major repair job. They have much yet to learn of basis fundamentals of mechanics before they can go on. Q. On what are they going to learn basic mechan ics? A. They will Ieam on the engines and motors in the available cars and trucks and tractors and farm ma chinery that will be made available and is there now. We have a tractor on the farm that is available for them to use for instructional purposes at the present time; we have additional farm machinery as a part of the mechanics course. Q. As a part of the mechanics course? A. General mechanics course, including auto me chanics. Q. What type of farm machinery do you have for the mechanics course? A. We have available to the mechanics course for repair and maintenaance and operation and study such (R. p. 1266) things as the hayrake, the mower, manure [ 330 1 spreader — such things as that — the normal farm ma chinery. # 0 * * & Excerpts From “A Report On A Comparison of the Washington-Lee and Hoffman-Boston High Schools, Arlington County, Virginia” By Howard A. Dawson And Appendix Thereto TABLE XXX cq 8 Number & T itles of Books under E ach Classification in L ibraries of W ashington-Lee and Hoffman- Boston Schools, Arlington County, Virginia Dewey-Dec. Number 000 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 WASHINGTON LEE Classification No. Vol. General Works 423 Philosophy 81 Religion 52 Sociology 939 Language 112 Science 563 Useful Arts 877 Fine Arts 422 Literature 1000 History, Travel, Biography 2013 Fiction 2200 T otal-7 -1 2 Grades 8682 Elementary HOFFMAN-BOSTON Dup. No. Vol. Dup. 128 7 d 10 bSo 4 S 134 13Q ft* 40o 52 4 ocr 109 9ft-P 45 B' 54 13 BoCTQ 112 3 B 389 13 aC/3 1077 62 211 t 3 3 3 J TABLE XXXVII Courses a Student Has an Opportunity to Take in a Three-Year Cycle, Washington-Lee and Hoffman-Boston Senior High Schools, Arlington County, Virginia Washington-Lee English IIs English IIIs English IVs Speech I Speech II Journalism I Journalism II Trigonometry * Algebra IIs Plane Geometry® Solid Geometry Commercial Arithmetic General Mathematics Civics2 Problems of Democracy2 American History® Economics World History Economic Geography Latin American History Chemistry® Physics® Biology® Latin I Latin II Spanish I® Spanish II® French I3® French IF® Commercial Law Business Correspondence Bookkeeping Hoffman-Boston English II® English III® English IV® American History* Civics and Social Problems2 Physical Education1* (Each year) Biology* Chemistry* Physics* General Science — Advanced Algebra I (Each year) Algebra II® Plane Geometry® Trigonometry® Spanish I® Spanish II® French I* French II® Social Studies2 Home Economics I Home Economics II Home Economics III Shop I* Shop II* Bricklaying Typewriting* Shorthand Music* (Each year) Art* (Each year) Home Nursing® (Continued on next page) [ 334 ] (Table XXXVII, concluded) W ashington-Lee Hoffman-Boston Shorthand’* Typewriting* Mechanical Drawing Fine Arts Art: Appreciation Commercial Art Music* Music Appreciation Washington-Lee Mixed Chorus Glee Club — boys Glee Club — girls Shop — Special* Shop — General* Auto Mechanics Machine Shop* Printing Sheet Metal* Woodworking* Retail Sales Consumer Buying Home Economics I* Home Economics II* Home Economics III* Cadets — boys Cadets — girls Cadet Band Orchestra Driver Training Home Nursing* Physical Education* 1 2 3 4 1. No credit toward graduation in the subjects. 2. Civics and Problems of Democracy are in reality covered in Social Studies and Civics and Social Problems. 3. Only one year of French was offered in 1948-49. 4. Units in this work are taught in the Hoffman-Boston School ta the general shop to fit the needs of individual students. TABLE XXXIX Club and Activity Programs in W ashington-Lee and Hoffman-Boston High Schools, Arlington County, Virginia, 1948-1949 W ashington-Lee * Boys’ Glee Club “Gills’ Glee Club “Mixed Chorus “Junior Girls’ Glee Club “Orchestra “Band “Boys’ Cadet Corps “Girls’ Cadet Corps Honor Society Student Council Student Newspaper Staff Year Book Staff Dramatics Hi-Y Organizations Tri-Y Organizations Bible Club Various Subject Clubs Football Basketball Baseball Track Crew Golf “Important: Curricular subjects Hoffman-Boston Student Council Student Safety Patrol Junior League Music Club (Vocal and Band) Dramatic Club Athletic Club Honorary Society Science Club Arts and Crafts Club Business Club NOTES: 1. These clubs were sponsored by separate teachers. 2. They were operated during the activity period. 3. The small number of clubs is in keeping with the small enrollment. in the schedule. These subjects carry credit. TA B LE X X X X Summer Programs of Instruction, W ashington-Lee and Hoffman-Boston Senior High Schools, Arlington County, Virginia, 1948-49 W a s h in g to n -L e e English at all levels for Sr. High School Mathematics at all levels for Sr. High School Civics Problems of Democracy World History Economic Geography Biology Spanish Shorthand Typewriting American Historv Hoffman-Boston No senior high school pupil expressed a desire to enroll for summer school classes. APPENDIX H 1, L ist of Subjects T aught by Grades and Number of Pupils E nrolled in E ach Subject, W ashington Lee and Hoffman-Boston Senior High Schools, Arlington County, Virginia, 1948-49. No. of Pupils Subject Grade 10 46- 47- 48- 47 48 49 English 658 686 710 Speech Journalism 16 24 50 Trigonometry Solid Geometry Algebra, Adv. Geometry, Plane 396 433 439 Comm’l. Arith. 213 211 223 Gen. Math. Adv. Civics 32 Prob. of Democracy American History Economics World History 83 108 115 Econ. Geography Latin Amer. Hist. 149 168 115 Chemistry Physics SHINGTON-LEE No. of Pupils No. of Pupils Grade 11 Grade 12 46- 47- 48- 48- 47- 48- 47 48 49 47 48 49 496 425 594 437 470 481 17 24 48 10 6 12 10 7 13 28 30 49 54 51 86 402 302 335 224 227 239 175 228 244 367 536 632 53 47 22 17 29 202 183 228 136 120 149 (Continued on Next Page) HOFFMAN-BOSTON No. of Pupils No. of Pupils No. of Pupils Grade 10 Grade 11 Grade 12 48- 47- 48- 48- 47- 48- 46- 47- 48- 47 48 49 47 48 49 47 48 49 2 14 31 1 5 18 9 1 5 2 1 18 9 5 14 5 1 1 13 5 18 5 APPENDIX H-Ccmtinued 1. L ist of Subjects T aught by Grades and Number of Pupils E nrolled in E ach Subject, W ashington- Lee AND HOFFMAN-BOSTON SENIOR HlGH SCHOOLS, ARLINGTON COUNTY, VIRGINIA, 1948-49. WASHINGTON-LEE HOFFMAN-BOSTON No. of P upils No. of P upils No. of P upils No. of Pupils No. of Pupils N o. or P u p ils Subject Grade 10 Grade 11 Grade 12 Grade 10 Grade 11 Grade 12 46- 47- 48- 46- 47- 48- 48- 47- 48- 4 6 - 47- 48- 46- 47- 48- 4 6 - 4 7 - 4 5 - 47 48 49 47 48 49 47 48 49 47 48 49 47 48 49 47 48 49 Biology 418 533 536 14 5 1 Latin 186 146 179 20 20 Gen. Science, Adv. 31 Spanish 170 221 229 19 8 1 French 45 27 44 20 Cormn’i. Law 28 24 33 Business Corresp. 30 30 26 Bookkeeping 88 76 125 30 23 Shorthand 157 107 131 30 40 40 22 22 15 Typewriting 235 289 342 130 116 114 22 20 15 2 14 21 5 10 9 1 7 Mechanical Draw’g. 70 13 99 30 13 20 35 26 12 Fine Arts 70 88 23 19 Art Appreciation 5 4 8 5 4 8 5 4 8 Comm’l. Art 36 36 50 Music 13 14 14 12 13 14 Music Apprec’n. 6 10 15 5 7 9 6 6 9 £ A Mixed Chorus 20 10 15 30 20 28 33 13 21 8 5 4 Glee Club, Boys 4 5 7 14 15 14 16 15 15 (Continued on Next Page) WASHINGTON-LEE HOFFMAN-BOSTON APPENDIX H—Concluded 1. L ist of Subjects T aught by Grades and Number of Pupils E nrolled in E ach Subject, W ashington- Lee and Hoffman-Boston Senior High Schools, Arlington County, Virginia, 1948-49. No. of Pupils No. of Pupils No. of Pupils No. of Pupils No. of Pupils No. of Pupils Subject Grade 10 Grade 11 Grade 12 Grade 10 Grade 11 Grade 12 46- 47- 48- 46- 47- 48- 48- 47- 48- 46- 47- 48- 46- 47- 48- 46- 47- 48- 47 48 49 47 48 49 47 48 49 47 48 49 47 48 49 47 48 49 Glee Club, Girls 20 20 19 15 16 17 15 14 15 Shop, Special 5 3 Shop, General 4 9 5 5 3 1 Auto Mechanics 20 18 £1 17 14 18 Machine Shop 13 27 21 8 24 18 Print Shop 14 15 15 10 14 15 Sheet Metal 16 15 15 14 14 14 Wood Shop 16 13 17 11 13 14 Retail Sales 26 43 26 Consumer Buying 38 70 71 Home Economics 40 30 70 19 11 7 5 6 2 10 10 I 4 6 Cadets, Boys 50 45 40 65 67 68 60 63 52 Cadets, Girls 15 17 12 30 31 21 30 27 19 Cadet Band 10 8 9 16 13 15 14 10 13 Orchestra 6 7 12 6 8 9 6 7 8 Driver Training 16 14 9 12 10 7 Home Nursing 24 12 Phys. Eduea’n, 485 488 872 2 14 31 1 5 18 9 1 5 [ 3 40 J Excerpt From Plaintiff’s Exhibit 94 ' “REPORT OF PRINCIPAL, JUNE 10, 1949” To The Joint Committee For Control of (Manassas) Regional High School Page 1: 1. A resolution passed at the regular meeting of the Committee in April has met with disfavor on the part of both teachers and citizens in the adjoining coun ties. I was instructed in a letter dated April 7, 1949 to pass this resolution on to the teachers. The resolu tion follows: “Re it resolved by the Manassas Regional High School Joint Committee for Control that the gen eral policies for the administration of the Manassas Regional High School are in conformity with the pol icies of the Prince William County School Board in its operation of schools located within the same county as the Manassas Regional High School and that these policies specifically dictate that the salary schedule of the Manassas Regional High School shall be the salary schedule of the Prince William School System. E xc er pt fr o m P l a in t if f ’s E xh ibit 99 “A Comprehensive Program of Education for Virginia’s Public Schools” Pages' 6 -7 : 1 341 J * * * * * Optimum Size o f High School From an analysis of the comprehensive program of high school education, it is accepted that the breadth and variety of offering required for this comprehensive program and the staff needed to administer and teach it can be provided with maximum efficiency and econ omy both educationally and financially in a high school of approximately 600 to 1,200 pupils. As enrollments decrease within the range from 1,200 to 600, the finan cial ability of most counties and cities is such that the gradually increasing per capita costs of education can be met. In the small high school man power is wasted, and it becomes impracticable to provide a comprehen sive offering both from an educational and economical point of view. As enrollments fall below 600, the evi dence shows that the per capita costs of comprehensive programs increase in about the same proportion that the enrollments decrease, resulting in limited offerings, at excessive per capita costs. This is illustrated graphically in the chart on page 6-a. It seems clear that the larger the school up to 1,200 the better the opportunity to provide an adequate pro gram, and the advantages of the 600 to 1,200 pupil high school are obvious; however, it is recognized that in some smaller counties and in other counties on ac count of topography and distribution of population, as well as present locations of substantial buildings, ex ceptions to the enrollment goals above will be necessary and under these conditions smaller high schools should be operated. [ 342 1 It should be noted, however, that the costs of com prehensive offerings in high schools of small enrollments — for example, from 200 to 300 or 400 — are such that limited programs will result. It is recognized, never theless, that some of the smaller counties even after consolidations will have high schools in this enroE- ment range on account of the factors presented in the foregoing statements. While these schools will be in aH probability unable to provide complete comprehen sive offerings, they can provide greatly improved pro grams over the existing offerings in the smaller high schools. * * 1 343 1 (R. p. 1277-1301) OPINION OF THE COURT. The complaint here is that in their operation of the public schools the School Board and Superintendent of Schools of Arlington County, Virginia, have discrim inated against Negro students by failing to provide them, solely on account of their race or color, with facilities and opportunities for high school education equal to those furnished the white students. It is a class suit — on behalf of all Negroes of high school age residing in the county — and jurisdiction of the Fed eral court is predicated on an averred denial of the due process and equal protection clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. Appropriate relief is prayed by way of a decree declaratory of their rights and an injunction restraining a continuance of the alleged deprivations. This action was commenced on September 4, 1947, but for good cause, on agreement of the parties, it was continued from time to time and the trial was not com menced until September 6, 1949. By the original com plaint, as amended October 15, 1947, Constance Carter, the plaintiff, alleged that she was a person of African descent, a resident of Arlington County, State of Vir ginia, and an infant of school age required by the laws of Virginia to attend the public schools. She charged that in September 1947, being eligible to enter, she sought registration in the high school designated for Negro pupils in Arlington County and requested en rollment, in addition to the required courses, for the elective courses of Spanish, Civics III, Typewriting and Physical Education, but that she was advised by the [ 344 ] principal of the high school that no course in Spanish or Civics II was offered, that typewriting could not be offered because, though machines were available, there were no tables or desks for the purpose, and that no course in physical education was provided. Thereupon, she avers, she applied to the high school in Arlington County set apart for the white children, to take the courses desired by her and then afforded there, but that she was denied admission by reason of her race or color only, pursuant to the mandate of the Constitu tion and statutes of Virginia segregating the races in the public schools. The defendants, who are the legal authorities for the establishment, maintenance and operation of the public schools in Arlington County, are charged with pursuing, and having over a long period of years pursued, a policy, custom and usage discriminatory against the negroes, solely on account of their race or color, in providing educational facilities for colored high school pupils in the County. The defendants deny any difference in the facilities for the white and colored high schol children, they deny any discrimination whatsoever, and they especial ly deny that any disparity in the facilities is due to race or color, or to an intent, purpose or policy of discrimination. They traverse categorically the allega tions that Constance Carter was refused any of the courses she sought; they say she was expressly told that the coures mentioned in her inquiry would be taught, and that any other course would be given as and when qualified students required them. During the course of the trial Constance Carter mar ried and withdrew from school. With the consent of die defendants, intervention was permitted of two in- [ 8 4 5 ] fanfc colored high school students, Julius Brevard and Peggy Council, both residents of Aldington County, Virginia. Their petition simply nominated the inter veners as specific plaintiffs to prosecute the suit for the class and sets forth their own experiences in un successfully seeking courses of instruction at Hoffman- Boston. Brevard averred that he desired to take auto mechanics in the colored high school but that it was refused him as not offered, although it was available in the high school for white children. Peggy Council says that she asked for courses in Latin, Chemistry and Shorthand Reporting, but that they were not obtain able, although taught in the white school. Generally the discrimination is charged in the phys ical equipment, such as buildings, teaching tools and recreational areas, as well as in the curricular offer ings and the qualifications of the intructional staffs. We pass to a consideration of each of them. C omparative H igh School Population Perhaps the outstanding fact in this case is that for the last three sessions the white high school has had an average of 1800 students and the colored high school 26. There are but two high schools in Arlington County. The white high school is the Washington-Lee High School and the colored is the Hoffman-Boston High School. Both house junior high school classes in addition to the senior high school, the latter comprising Grades 10, 11 and 12. Hoffman-Boston also includes element ary classes, but the total school population there, for elementary, junior and senior high school, is less than [ 3 4 6 J 300. Washington-Lee has no elementary pupils and its total population, junior and senior high school, is about 2300. These figures are the school populations for the sessions 1946-47 and 1947-48. There was no substantial change in the 1948-49 session in the white school, but for that year the high school at Hoffman- Boston increased, from 12 to 18, in the two prior school years, to 48, of whom 13 were boys and 35 were girls, but during the two previous years there were only 3 boys in high school. School P lants The photographic exhibits placed in evidence are accurate and most informative. Their accuracy was con- armed by a personal inspection by the judge of this court of the buildings, rooms and grounds of each school. Hoffman-Boston is a two-story brick building erect ed in 1923 with additional class rooms added in 1930, and a separate temporary structure for elementary classes was put up in 1948. A vocational building, a few yards distant from the main building, was con structed in 1941. Washington-Lee likewise consists of a brick build ing and a separate shop building. The main building is of three stories and was put up in 1925. Additions came in 1932 and 1935. The separate shop building was not available until 1942. Hoffman-Boston has grounds of about 6 acres, for its 300 students, and Washington-Lee has approximately 12 acres for 2300 pupils. The latter is located in or near the commercial zones of Arlington County (an almost urban county) and consequently is adjacent to [ 3 4 7 1 streets and business traffic arteries. Hoffman-Boston is in the southern end of the County adjoining the golf links of the Army-Navy Country Club, removed from business and industry, and is sited on an eminence overlooking the Shirley Highway and the approaches to the Pentagon Building and the City of Washington. The buildings of both schools are in good repair and condition and are well maintained. C om pa ra tive E xpenditures While it is not a decisive factor because of the great divergence in the population of the two schools, the per pupil expenditures for the two schools is signifi cant in a search for discrminatory neglect. For the sessions of 1946-47 and 1947-48 more than twice as much was expended, per senior high school student, for teachers’ salaries, in the Hoffman-Boston than in Washington-Lee. During these sessions the amount paid per pupil for the operation and mainten ance of Hoffman-Boston was 2M or 3 times that for Washington-Lee. During the last session, 1948-49, tire difference was not so great in the per pupil teachers’ salaries, because of the increase in tire number of Negro students in the high school, but iir that year the main tenance of the schools per pupil was $3.52 for Wash ington-Lee and $76.67 for Hoffman-Boston. The expenditures for other facilities is worthy of note. In 1947-48 Washington-Lee received for library books $912.00 against $150.00 for Hoffman-Boston, while in the school year just past the expenditures for the same purpose were $1038.00 at Washington-Lee and $735,000 tor Hoffman-Boston. For shop and similar equipment $800.00 and $2200.00, respectively, was laid [ 3 4 8 1 out in each of the last two sessions for Washington-Lee, and at Hoffman-Boston, $200.00 and $1500.00. For commercial instruction equipment at Washington-Lee $500.00 was expended in 1947-48 and $250.00 at Hoff- man-Boston. Moreover, the capital investment figures at each school shows an average for the last three sessions for each high school pupil to be $721.00 for the colored and $417.00 for the white student. I n terio r F a c il it ies o f B uildings The class rooms of the two schools are comparable in every way. Inspection was made of all the lavatories and toilets, and they were found to be sanitary and modem in both schools. Each school has an auditorium. The one at Wash ington-Lee is much larger but it will seat at one time only about half of the student body. Because of the permanency of its seating arrangement, it can be used for no other purpose. At Hofiman-Boston the auditor ium is not as extensive and is simpler in design, but is well appointed and apparently quite adequate. It will accommodate at one time all of the junior and senior high school students of the school. It is none theless interior because its seats are not fixed theatre seats but are movable. Indeed, it is for this reason more valuable, being convertible to other and numerous purposes requiring unoccupied floor space. At Washington-Lee there are two gymnasiums. One, used by Lie giris, is a recessed extension of the stage ot the auditorium, but equipped with sliding parti tions between tnem. It was planned so as to allow oc cupants ot trie auditorium to witness activities on the floor of Lie gymnasium, but this has not proved prac 1 S49 1 ticable. The level of the auditorium seats is too low to permit a full view of the gymnasium. Separate and simultaneous use of the gymnasium and the auditorium is not possible because the noise from the gymnasium interferes with the program on the stage of the audi torium. The gymnasium floor is not large enough to allow room for a regulation basketball court, but is used for basketball and affords space for gymnastic equipment. There are showers for the participants. The other gymnasium is used by the boys and is sufficient for basketball or similar games, although not large enough for a regulation basketball court. At Hoffman-Boston there is no separate gymnasium. The auditorium, by the removal of the seats, is convert ible for use in calisthenics and such other uses as the small high school student body could make of a gymnasium. Mats and other gymnastic equipment are furnished. However, the structural columns in the room interfere with ball games and it contains no courts for them. There are no showers. It does not have the advantage of giving an area for recreation and phys ical education every day to all the students, which is not obtainable by the Washington-Lee students, as its gymnasiums can receive not more than haif of the students each day, and only half of the students can receive physical education. However, the Hoffman-Bos ton gymnasium is not adequate and will be discussed again. Home economics instruction facilities are far better at Hoffman-Boston than at Washington-Lee. Indeed, at the latter no real provision is made for this course in respect to sleeping, living and dining-room facilities. Washington-Lee has a room for choral music, accom- [ 3 5 0 3 modating 63 persons, and one for instrumental instruc tion, having a capacity of 50 students, while Hoffman - Boston music classes meet in its auditorium for choral and instrumental music, and some music classes are held in a small class room, formerly occupied as an office by the principal. The auditorium and. class room in Hoffman-Boston provide accommodations equal to the special rooms in Washington-Lee, and considering again the difference in the number of students, the ad vantage is in favor of Hoffman-Boston. Library space and equipment in each school are most acceptable. The space at Washington-Lee is more ex tensive that that at Hoffman-Boston, but still again the smaller demand at Hoffman-Boston gives each of its students greater opportunity to use the library. The libraries of both schools contain general works, and books on history, sciences, biography, and other appropriate subjects. Both have current periodicals and newspapers. Washington-Lee has far more volumes in number, and a greater variety of newspapers and per iodicals, but the defendants are ready to provide any book, newspaper or periodical required or desired at Hoffman-Boston. Perhaps the facility most disputed is the shop room space and equipment. Each school has a separate build ing for the teaching of the industrial arts. Washington- Lee has separate shop rooms for automobile mechanics, machine work, and printing as well and woodwork. Hoffman-Boston has all of this, save automobile me chanics and printing, in one shop. It is in a separate building, and is well equipped and capably staffed Bricklaying is available at Hoffman-Boston but not at [ 3 5 1 1 Washington-Lee. We will later discuss the absence of auto mechanics and printing at Hoffman-Boston. A cafeteria exists at Washington-Lee, while none is at Hoffman-Boston. This may well be accounted for by the difference in the demands therefor by reason of the disparity in the school populations, and it is doubtful that a cafeteria is needed. There is none in one of the county’s latest white junior high schools. E xterio r F a c ilities Hoffman-Boston has no football field or baseball dia mond, stadium or running track. Its student body of 3 boys in the sessions 1946-47 and 1947-48, and 13 in the session 1948-49 would not support such teams. It does have outdoor basketball courts, soft ball diamonds, horseshoe pitching grounds and areas for other play. The grounds of one school compare favorably with that of the other in appearance and maintenance, but the grounds at Hoffman-Boston should be further graded and trimed. H ea lth Supervision Each school has the services of a health nurse. Wash ington-Lee has an infirmary, but Hoffman-Boston none. The latter has dental inspections while Washington- Lee has none, and each school provides for physical examination, and sight and hearing tests. T eachers Teachers’ salaries in Arlington County are among, if not, the highest in the State. The compensation of teachers of white and colored teachers is on the same basis. If the teachers of the white school are paid more [ 352 J than in the colored school, it is because the former have experience. They are not selected because of greater experience, but greater experience is more read ily found among white teachers because the Negroes have devoted their time to this profession from as early a date as have the white population. As to the respective qualifications of the white and Negro facilities, it is to be observed that in the Negro schools no teacher is without a baccalaureate degree, while in the Washington-Lee High School almost 10% of the teachers are without such degree. Each white teacher must daily instruct about 15% more pupils than the colored teacher. In Washington-Lee nearly all teachers instruct in but a single subject. At Hoffman-Boston a teacher may give two or three subjects. Sound argument can be made for the advantages of both. For the first, specia lization is said to lead to expertness; for the latter, co ordination of the several subjects is said to be gained. This difference in method has not been shown to result in a difference in teaching results in the two schools. N atural Scien ce F a c ilities Each school teaches biology, chemistry and physics. Washington-Lee has a greater quantity of equipment. It has several science rooms. Hoffman-Boston has am ple equipment and, although it is in a single science room, it affords facilities equivalent to those at Wash ington-Lee. Curricula The course of study offered in each school at the present time is such as to place them both on the ac [ 353 ] credited list of the Virginia Department of Education. The Hoffman-Boston School was not so accredited un til the session of 1948-49. The Southern Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools, a voluntary organiza tion setting up standards of education, has approved the Washington-Lee diploma. This body has not yet approved the Hoffman-Boston School and application has not been made for such approval. Apparently it is now eligible for approval. There are many subjects taught at Washington-Lee that are not taught at Hoffman-Boston. However, the evidence conclusively shows that there are no courses requested or desired at Hoffman-Boston which have not or will not be provided. The method of ascertain ing what subjects should be taught at Hoffman-Boston is practical and approved by educationists. It includes a survey, made in the spring of each year, to ascer tain what subjects will be desired for the following session. This survey is accomplished by issuing inter rogatories to the students then in attendance asking what will be desired by them for the next session, by inquiring of the curricular demands through public meetings of parents, such as parent-teacher associa tions and similar organizations, and by making inquiry in any other known fields. Any course found needed is provided. The school au thorities have adhered to this practice in the past and now vouch in this case their willingness to meet in the furture any demand for any high school course. The specific demand made by the named-plaintiffs may well now be discussed. [ 3 54 ] Applica tio n o f C onstance C a rter According to her mother’s testimony, Constance Car ter, the original plaintiff, applied in September 1947 to take Spanish, civics III, typewriting and physical education at Hoffman-Boston but was told they were not available to her. Actually, all of these courses were given in the session 1947-48. The principal denies that she was in fact refused them, but he says she would have been refused civics III because it was for advanc ed students only. Although present in court, Constance Carter did not testify to corroborate her mother. The principal says that he understood the application to include physics III (and the complaint here first alleg ed physics III) and he advised that the physics course was not available. She then matriculated in a Wash ington, D. C. school, for the first semester so she could take the desired courses, but she seems not to have taken them there. She returned to Hoffman-Boston for the second semester. Applica tio n o f Peggy C ouncil This intervenor entered Hoffman-Boston as a 11-A student in February 1949. She says she unsuccessfully applied, on September 6th of this year, to take Latin, chemistry, shorthand, and typing. She was then an 11-B and eligible to take three of them only. There was a teacher ready and qualified to teach Latin, but as Peg gy Council had not signified her intention, upon the interrogatory given her for the purpose last May, to take Latin this session, and as no other student had asked for it, Hoffman-Boston did not intend to give Latin, and for these reasons the principal informed her it was not available. Shorthand and typing both are t 355 ] being given. Typing has been offered for several years. On the first day of school it was thought that short hand should not be given until the students had com pleted their typing courses. However shorthand is now offered. Chemistry is given in alternate years. It was given last year, but this year instead there will be bio- logy, botany and physics. Although chemistry was list ed as available for this year, Peggy Council did not check it as desired when last May she made out a card of the courses she wished this session. At Washington- Lee no course is offered unless as many as eighteen stu dents ask for it. Applica tio n o f J ulius B revard This young man testified that on the second day of this trial, which was the second day of school, he ask ed the principal of Hoffman-Boston if he could take auto mechanics and was told it was not to be had. The principal testified that the inquiry was made of him casually “in a transit period”, when he was moving from the classrooms to the office, and the request was never pressed seriously or discussed with him in his office, and he had had no opportunity to discuss the matter with Brevard so as to give a final decision. The Assistant Superintendent stated that the principal could not give the final answer on such a question and it had not been brought to his office by the student or his parents. Apparently the request was never seriously pressed. No other student had ever sought the course. It cannot be said that this course has been denied Bre vard. I 356 ] P a s t R e c o r d o f O fferin g s As demonstrating the fulfillment by the Hoffman- Boston School of the real demands of its students, the following uncontroverted testimony is enlightening, Hoffman-Boston's Negro principal was questioned and answered as follows: “Q. I now ask you whether or not you have ever received a request from any qualified student for any course that you have not been able to give prior to the current years teaching, that is to say, the year that began this week, and, if there are any exceptions, you may state the exceptions, “A. I may not remember all but I think there has been one. I know there has been one,” (He then named electrical engineering as having been asked and refused, no high school offering it as a course.) The Assistant Superintendent of Schools testified: “Q. With the exception of the Davis case which you have just mentioned, will you state whether or not any course has been denied to any qualified colored student who requested it in the Arlington County school system, if that course was available in the white schools? “A. Up until today, not to my knowledge.” Davis’ was a request for a vocational course not given at Hoffman-Boston and he was placed at the Manassas Negro Vocational School in accordance with his wishes. Explanation was made that, with the instant suit on trial and the school authorities in court during the [ 357 ] first days of the session, the final curriculum at the schools of the county had not been finally settled for the session 1949-50 at the time the witnesses testified or when students Council and Brevard registered. Offering With No Applica tio n s The plaintiffs take the postion that if there are to be two high schools in Arlington County, one for the white and the other for the colored children, then constitutional equality demands that the colored school offer every course available in the white school, wheth er or not there are applicants for it. Therefore, they urge that it is discrimination if Hoffman-Boston does not make available every item of the Washington-Lee curriculum. This view is likewise advanced as to facili ties. In respect to both courses and facilities it is press ed to the extent of earnestly contending that the same and identical courses and facilities must, to avoid dis crimination, be provided at each school, and that they must be offered although there may be no applicants for their study or use. For instance, that a faculty and organization for a summer school should have been provided at Hoffman-Boston, although its students were actually invited to register for the summer quarter and none applied; that teachers for such a summer course should have been sent to the rooms, and waited daily, until a possible student presented himself; that a teacher and a room should be ready at Hoffman- Boston for every course taught at Washington-Lee, no matter no pupils; that there should be a cadet corps at Hoffman-Boston High School, because there is one at Washington-Lee, although Hoffman-Boston High [ 358 ] School students consisted of only 3 boys and 9 girls in the 1946-47 session, 3 boys and 15 girls in 1947-48 and 13 boys and 35 girls in the session of 1948-49; that the failure to have a football team among the boys during those years was evidence of discrmination, as was the failure to maintain a football field and stadium. These, it is said, are logically the burdens unseverably attach ing to segregation. The Court does not believe that the failure of Hoff- man-Boston to make empty offerings is discrimination. Deprivations falling within the prohibition of the Four teenth Amendment must be actual as well as logical. RECAPrruLATioN o f Advantages and D isadvantages The evidence shows that each school has some ad vantages over the other, and each school has disad vantages not suffered by the other, but a summary of them discloses that Hoffman-Boston and Washington- Lee give substantially the same treatment to each of their high school students. Washington-Lee offers courses in auto mechanics and printing; Hoffman-Boston does not. Hoffman-Boston gives a course in bricklaying, Washington-Lee does not. The home economics instruction facilities at Hoffman- Boston far exceed the correponding facilities at Wash ington-Lee. Hoffman-Boston offers physical education to all of its high school students, but none is offered at Washing ton-Lee to the students of the 11th and 12th grades; some 900 in number. Washington-Lee is so overcrowded that its corridors must be made into one-way-traffic arteries; study hours there must be spent in the rear rooms then being used [ 359 ] for class instruction; Hofiman-Boston has no such over crowding. At Hoffman-Boston two teachers of physical educa tion are provided for 375 children, while at Washing ton-Lee four must handle 1100 children. The library at Hoffman-Boston will accommodate all of its senior high school at one time, while at Wash ington-Lee only 6% or 7% of its students may be so accommodated. Thus the student at Washington-Lee has very limited library access, but the Hofiman-Bos ton student has easy and unrestricted enjoyment and benefit of the library. Again, the sizes of the classes at Hoffman-Boston are far more favorable. As an average Hoffman-Boston has between 20 and 25 to a class; at Washington-Lee a great many of the classes contain more than 35. As we have already explained, the location of Hoff man-Boston is by far the better, having no constant traffic hazards as does Washington-Lee. The grounds are more spacious at Hoffman-Boston for each student, the available play ground greater. It is fair to say that in classroom instruction the op portunities and facilities offered to the high school stu dent at Hoffman-Boston are greater than those provid ed at Washington-Lee. This is because, with the phys ical equipment equal, the Hoffman-Boston boy or girl receives a more individual instruction, enjoys a closer personal relationship to the teacher, is subject to a clos er study by the teacher for counsel and guidance, and receives instruction under coordination and corre lation of subjects, rather than through a department alized form of instruction too often delaying the real ization of the relationship of all subjects of study. Then, [ 360 ] too, at Hoffman-Boston the individuality of the pupil is not “lost in the crowd”. These are but the usual ad vantages to be gained from a school where the scholars are few. No D iscrim in a tio n E xists Upon a review of all the evidence, as clarified by a view of the various faciliities of the two schools, the Court finds there is no discrimination. Certainly none has been proved by a preponderance of the evidence. Segregation as D iscrim in a tio n It is said that, if the high school students of Hoff man-Boston were not forbidden by segregation to at tend Washington-Lee, they would not be denied the opportunities of a large-populated school, such as a cadet corps, football, baseball and other activities de pendent on numbers in a student body; that they are entitled to the opportunity whether or not availed of; and that the absence of opportunity due to size of school population, is actually due to segregation, which in turn Is based on race or color and therefore uncon stitutional. We do not have to pass upon the question whether segregation is in itself discrimination, because as we have already pointed out, no discrimination in fact is found. A fortiori, none is based on race or color. Indeed, the advantage is with the Hoffman-Boston student for educational opportunity in the classroom. There are differences in the schools but they are only differences and nothing more. 1’hey exist between any two schools, whether for white students only, or for colored stu dents only, or for both races. They could spring from [ 361 ] a variance in size of schools, in the location of schools, or in the methods or manner of instruction, but such differences are not the discriminations outlawed by the Fourteenth Amendment. The Court recognizes that neither the State constitu tion’s mandate of segregation, nor economy to avoid the greater expense arising from the duplication of facilities necessary for segregated education, can excuse discrimination. Equality of treatment is uncondition ally enjoined upon the State government by the Four teenth Amendment in favor of all its citizens. All citi zens must receive from the State in equal measure its protection and benefit. But neither the same nor simi lar treatment is commanded by the Amedment. Equal in its eyes means equivalent. It is obvious that identi cal treatment would not carry to every citizen equal protection or equal benefits under the law. The State has never been proscribed by the Fourteenth Amend ment from using different groups of its citizens, or from varying the form of its benefits, that every citi zen’s share may be equal in value. However, if we must pass on the legal validity of seg regation, we find that segregation in the public func tions of the State, including education in public schools, is exclusively a State matter, and under the present decisional law of the Supreme Court, is not question able save to assure equality. The United States Court of Appeals for this Circuit has quite recently said so. Corbin et al v. County School Board of Pulaski (No vember 14, 1949). Needs at H o ffm a n -B oston Returning to the facts of the instant case, and it is [ 362 ] wholly factual, we say that undoubtedly the gymnas ium at Hoffman-Boston should be improved, showers put in, sufficient rest rooms for the male teachers in stalled, its corridor walls should be painted, its grounds improved, and perhaps a cafeteria added. It is per tinent here to notice that in November 1948, at the instance of the School Board, an issue of bonds was voted by the people of the county containing an item of $250,000.00 for the construction of a gymnasium, ad ditional shop facilities, infirmary, cafeteria, showers and rest rooms. This money will be used in accordance with plans already in hand for the erection and instal lation of these improvements. But these, and similar inadequacies, are deficiences rather than discriminations. They are matters within the jurisdiction of the administrative branch of the state or county government. They are inadequacies or omissions that might be found existing in any school. They are not the result of discrimination. Such con ditions are to be corrected by appeal to the administra tive authorities. It is clear from the evidence that there has been no intent, purpose or policy on the part of the defendants to neglect or discriminate against the colored schools of Arlington County. The unchallenged testimony that the elementary colored children are housed better than the white children of that class reveals an entire ab sence of intent to discriminate between the races in the schools. While “no intent” will not excuse actual disparity of treatment, if traceable to race or color, still just as truly, every inadequacy or insufficiency of pro vision in educational opportunities or other public fa cilities, is not discrimination, or evidence of discrimina [ 363 ] tion, as denounced by the Fourteenth Amendment, A difference in provision may exist between the white, between the colored citizens, or between the white and colored citizens, without fouling the Amendment, if it is the result only of unattentive stewardship or faulty judgment or shortsighter planning by the respon sible authorities. These are defects of administration for administrative correction, not constitutional offenses for judicial interference. R egional School at M anassas The defendants showed that the Regional Vocation al School, which is maintained by the Counties of Prin ce William, Fairfax and Fauquier, at Manassas, Virgin ia, some 20 or 25 miles from Hoffman-Boston, had en tered into an agreement with Arlington County to accept for matriculation in its vocational courses stu dents from Arlington County the evidence was that this arrangement would take care of both white and colored students desiring to undertake vocational courses not available in the Arlington County schools. By virtue of this agreement approximately 40 or 50 white students have been entered there by Arlington County, and the defendants state that any student at PIoffman-Boston, not provided with the desired voca tional study, will be given the courses, at the entire expense of Arlington County, in the Regional School at Manassas. For the transportation of the students to and from the School the County will operate conven ient buses. The plaintiffs contend that this is not an equal op portunity in respect to the course of auto mechanics and similar omitted courses, for the reason that the [ 364 ] courses are actually offered at Washington-Lee and only the overflow of its students are sent to Manassas, while at Hoffman-Boston no such courses are offered, even for one student. Although the judge of this court visited and in spected the facilities for the Negro students at the Ma nassas School, and finds them to be equal to those at Washington-Lee, it is unnecessary to pass upon this question, because there has been no showing of a de nial by the Arlington County authorities of any such course to a Negro student. In conclusion, we find that the evidence does not make out a case of discrimination. The complaint will be dismissed. This opinion is adopted by the Court as a statement of its findings of fact and conclusions of law. # * # * * (R. p. 1302-1303) FINAL DECREE. This cause came on to be heard upon the complaint, and amended complaint, of Constance Carter, and upon the intervening petition of Peggy Council and Julius Brevard, and upon the answer of the respond ents thereto, as well as upon the evidence offered by all of the said parties, and was argued by counsel. Upon consideration, the Court, for the reasons set forth in its written opinion dated December 7, 1949 and filed in this cause, finds that the allegations of the said complaint, as amended, and the said petition are not sustained by the evidence, and, therefore, it is [ 365 ] ORDERED by the Court, upon the findings of fact and conclusions of law made and stated by the Court in said opinion, that the said complaint, as amended, and the said petition be, and they are hereby, dismiss ed, that the defendants recover of the plaintiffs and petitioners their costs herein, and that this cause be stricken from the docket,