White v. Florida Hearing Transcript II
Public Court Documents
September 22, 1969

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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. White v. Florida Hearing Transcript II, 1969. 433be5fe-c89a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/9d0ce72f-9f58-430b-b40b-8f6f4850344a/white-v-florida-hearing-transcript-ii. Accessed August 19, 2025.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I-N—D-E—X NAME OF WITNESS PAGE NUMBER BARBARA HAMMOND .......................... 4 NORMA H. BROOKS........................... 20 JUANITA HOLLIS............................ 43 ANCHOR FLYNN.............................. 59 GLORIA JEFFERSON ........................ 76 FLOSSIE MeCLARY........................... 86 BERNICE H. CLAUSELL ...................... 96 ALBERTA WHITE ............................ 107 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. GUAR I SCO: All right, let’s get the hearing unde:: way. Mr. Marshall, you have some witnesses you wanted to use but did not have them here the last time. Are they here today? MR. MARSHALL: Yes, one is here and one is not. I want to call Mrs. Flossie McClary. MR. GUARISCO: All right, she needs to come up here and be sworn. Mr. McClure, do you have some coming in? MR. McCLURE: Yes, sir, but they have been sworn. MR. GUARISCO: They’ve all been sworn, yours have? MR. McCLURE: Yes, sir. MR. GUARISCO: And do you have some coming who are not here now? MR. MARSHALL: Yes, I do. MR. GUARISCO: Why don’t we swear in Mrs. White now at the same time because she was not sworn in the last time and then when the other witnesses come in we will take care of them at that time. MR. McCLURE: Mr. Chairman, I do have one who was not sworn but she's not here yet but she will be here shortly. MR. GUARISCO: Well, when you see one coming in through the door, let me know. We have the Rule invoked here. If the Court Reporter will, then, we can swear these two witnesses in. (witnesses sworn a n d instructed on the rule by the REPORTER.) MR. GUARISCO: Gentlemen, we would like to, and I’m sure that you do, too, have some decision this morning as to the testimony being completed. It is my suggestion that if we do that a waiver of any proposed order being submitted to us be waived at this time, otherwise we will have to prolong this thing for days. Are you in agreement to do that, to waive any proposal that you might submit for findings? MR. McCLURE: We have discussed this earlier and since we do have a Court Reporter I have no objection to waiving that because we have all the findings here in the transcript. MR. GUARISCO; You understand, of course, that you will be given an opportunity to file any exceptions to the written findings at a later date, is that agreed? MR. McCLURE: Yes, sir, fine. MR. -MARSHALL: Yes. MR. GUARISCO: Well, let the record show that both counsel have waived the filing of a proposed finding and save the right to file exceptions to any findings that are filed at a later date by the School Board. This will enable the School Board to render the decision today after the testimony is taken. The other thing Iwould like to call to your attention is that since you tried to use 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 your witnesses to the maximum without being repetitious in order that we may proceed with this thing as rapidly as possible today and conclude it. The last time we worked our Court Reporter a little harder than we should have but we were trying to get out of here, so about an hour and fifteen minutes from now, we will stop and give her a break because an arm gets numb after so much writin: so fast, and so particularly. Is there anything else tha anybody wants to bring up? MR. McCLURE: Nothing here. HR. GUARISCO: All right, Mr. McClure, you still hav your case to present so you may begin with your witnesses BARBARA HAMMOND was called as a witness and having been previously sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McCLURE: Q Miss Hammond, I believe that you have previously been swo: is that correct? A Yes, I have. 3 Would you state your name and address, please? A Barbara Hammond, 3199 North Ridge Road. 3 And where do you work? A. Pineview Elementary. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Pineview Elementary? A Area. Q How long have you worked there? A One year. Q One year, and what positions have you had or what jobs have you had during the time you have been at Pineview? A I started working as an aide, a teacher's aide. Q Teacher's aide? A Yes, and then I moved up to library aide. Q What is your present position now? A Now, I am working as a clerk-typist in the library in the office. Q You work in Mr. Tooks' office? A Yes. Q All right, in your job as secretary - - of course, let's take your job as aide. What classrooms were you a teache aide in? A I was a teacher's aide in the classes of kindergarten, first, second and third grades. Q Have you ever been a teacher's aide in firs. White’s room? A No. Q What occasion, if any, have you ever had to be present in Mrs. White's room? A Well, there were occasions where I had to go in and I would carry memorandums around. As an aide, in my job I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 did different duties. If they were short and they needed someone to carry a memorandum around, I would carry the memorandum around and I had several occasions to go into her classroom to take a memorandum. Q Now, what occasion did you have to be in her room as a teacher's aide. A None, really. Q None? A No. Q Now, when did you start as a secretary there in the schoo A That was March. Q March? A In March. Q And you stated that you had occasions to carry memorandum; in that job as secretary? A Yes. Q Were you ever called on to deliver memorandums or message ; to Mrs. White? A I was called on to deliver them. I carried them to all the teachers and Mrs. White was one of the teachers. Q Do you recall when this was, during what time that you mav have delivered any messages or memorandums to Mrs. White? A It was several occasions. Q Several occasions? A Uh-huh. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Would you explain to the Board exactly what your duties were in delivering these messages or memoranda to Mrs. Whi and what reaction she may have had to these memoranda? A Well, there was several occasions that I remember that I carried in memorandums and I would give them to her and she would read them and she would just mumble something. There was one occasion on one morning when there was a meeting being held and I was told to tell the teachers when they came in that the meeting was in the library and I specifically told Mrs. White that they were having a meeting in the library and she said to me, "Well, I'm not a teacher, anyhow," and kept, you know - - usually, when I would carry memorandums she would read them and mumble something, you know, and I would just keep on goinc Q All right, what were your instructions and who were the memorandums from? A The memorandums were from the office, to take them to each teacher and have them sign it. Q You say they were from the office, who in the office? A Mr. Tooks. Q Were there ever occasions where Mrs. White did not read the memorandums? A There were several occasions that I remember that I carric them in and she just signed her name. Q All right, would you explain approximately when this may 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 have happened and how many times it happened? A Well, it would be sort of hard to say but this I remember was specifically in April that I was taking it around but I can’t remember just what it was about. Q April of what year? A This past year. Q 1969? A Yes, 1969, and I carried it in and she just mumbled some thing and signed her name. Q Did she read the message? A I don't know, I couldn't say that she read it. Q All right, would you describe to the Board how you de livered the memorandum and what Mrs. White's reaction was of what she did when she signed it? A Well, on one of the occasions when I went in she was nodding and I just said, "Mrs. White," and she woke up and, you know, I put it in front of her on her desk. Q She was nodding? A Yes. Q Was this during any lunch break or was it during the class A Well, the children were all in the classroom and I'm quite sure the children had already had their lunch. Q All right, how cculd you tell that Mrs. White was nodding|? A Well, she had her head down and her eyes were closed. Q Did she bring her head up when you came into the room? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 No, it was after I had gotten over to her desk and spoken to her. } Would you tell in your own words from the time you enterec the room until the time you get to Mrs. White’s desk and she lifted her head? \ Well, her room - - in her room her desk is in a corner kinda like this by a window so you have to walk a distance before you get to her desk. When I walked in the children were in there and they were talking and running around the room and I walked over to the desk and her head was down on the desk like that. If someone walked in a class room, to me you should be able to see them, you know,if your eyes are open. Q All right, we have a diagram of the classroom over here on the board and I would like for you to point out to the Board where the door to Mrs. White's classroom was and the position of her desk and the route that you took to get to her desk. Would you come over here, please? A (Witness went to blackboard.) Q All right, would you tell where the office was and where you came from when you went to her desk? A Yes, this is the office right here. I came from here anc I went up the hallway and into Mrs. Hollis' room and across to Mrs. White's room. Her desk is here and I walked straight across the room and over to her desk. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Now, which way were the students faced at this time? Wou you mark where Mrs. White’s desk was in her room, just a little black box or something there? The children were facing toward the blackboard here. Thi is the blackboard and the children were facing toward the blackboard and also their desks were. Q You walked all the way across the room? A Yes, sir. Q When did you first notice that Mrs. White was nodding? A When I first entered the room. Q All right, and her desk was where? A Here, (indicating.) Q Did you call to her at any time? A I didn't call to her but I just walked over to her and called, "Mrs. White". Q All right, you may have a seat. (Witness seated.) During these trips into the classroom did you observe the conducfl of the children in the classroom? A Yes. Q Would you explain in detail exactly what you saw the children were doing? A There were occasions when I would enter the room that thek would be running all over the room and throwing paper and just, you know, unruly in general. Q Was Mrs. White present during this time? 11 1 A Q A Q 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 A 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Yes. On how many occasions did you see this happening? Oh, boy, I can’t nention how many times I actually saw this Well, could you give us an average? Would this be the beginning of the ’68-'69 school term or when you were there as an aide? There were several occasions when I would go in to the hallway there, because I had to go to Mrs. Williams’ room and her classroom is on that hallway, and I would go by there and I would see the children being unruly on number of occasions. On how many occasions did you deliver messages to Airs. White, say on a weekly basis, how many times a week? Well, this varied and I couldn't actually say how many times in one week because some weeks I wouldn't have to take any around and then at least two or three times a month, I could say that I did that, I believe. Okay, can you tell the Board if you observed any work of the children on the blackboards in Mrs. White’s room? ArtR. MARSHALL: Air. Chairman, I would like to object to any leading questions. "Did you observe any children* work", and all the witness has to do is answer yes or no and certainly this is a leading question on the part of Air. McClure. AdR. GUARISCO: I will sustain that. Air. McClure, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 please phrase your questions so that you can avoid suggest ing answers and leading the witness. MR. McCLURE: I sure will. Q What, if anything did you observe on the blackboard in Mrs. White’s room? A Well, there were the alphabets. Q And what else? A That's about all and during Christmas she had some Christmas decorations that had been, you know, purchased, the cardboard type decorations and such. Q Any other decorations up there during the Christmas seasor other than the ones she purchased? A I didn't see any. Q At your other visits to the classroom, did you visit there on other occasions during a holiday season? A No. Q When you delivered messages in there, what did you observe up on the blackboards? A Nothing, really. MR. McCLURE: I have no further questions. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MARSHALL: Q Mrs. Hammond, what areas are you certified to teach in, please? A None. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I went to elementary and high school in St. Augustine and I attended Florida A&M a year. Q When were you hired as a teachei's aide at Pineview? A August of 1968, the school term ,68-,69. Q What year did you attend Florida A&M? A 1950. Q 1950? Yes. Q What positions have you held since 1950? A I have none. My husband has been in the service and I have been travelling with him. Q Have you held any other teaching positions? A No, I have worked in the Red Cross and I have worked in the schools as a Red Cross volunteer nurse’s aide. Q Are you from Tallahassee, were you born in Tallahassee? A No, I'm not. Q When did you get to Tallahassee, 1950? A I came in September of 1950 and I stayed on until June of 1951. Q And when did you return?^- A I have been back several times, but to live - - MR. McCLURE: I would like to object because I think it is immaterial when she first came to Tallahassee. q Where did you go to school? MR. GUARISCO: I will sustain the objection because we are going far afield. There was nothing in direct brought out in these matters and the individual’s person4l background has no bearing on this. Mrs. Hammond, have you had any special training in Library Science or any special training at all in Library Science ? No. I believe you testified that you became secretary to/ * Mr. Tooks in March of 1969, is that correct? Yes. And I believe you also testified that you had no occasior to visit the room of Mrs. White prior to that time, is that right? No, I didn't say that. But you never visited her class as a teacher’s aide, is that right? When I carried memorandums I was a teacher's aide. You mean in March of '69? Yes, the first part of March. Now, when did you begin to deliver these memorandums, in March of '69? I delivered memorandums from the very beginning of the school term. August of *68? No, not August but in September when the teachers came back and I was called on to deliver them at certain times. Do you know the schedule of the students who were in Mrs. White's classroom, did you know their schedule? No, not the entire schedule. I knew what time they were supposed to have lunch. How did you know that? Because my lunch hour was during that time and sometime I would assist with the counting of the lunches out. You know, we have a list and we check the list off as the children would deliver the lunches. What would you do when you delivered these messages, what would you do after you handed the message to Mrs. White, the memorandum? After I gave it to her and she signed it then I would leave the classroom and go on and deliver it to the other teachers. Did you have more than one, did each teacher have a memo- dum? No, there was one memorandum for all the teachers and they had to initial it. Did you stand there while the memorandum was being read, is that right? Yes. And you say on each occasion Mrs. White would read the message, however, the memorandum that you delivered? No, I didn't say that. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I said she did not read them. Q I’m sorry? A I said she did not. Q She did not? A That’s right. Q Didn't you say that she would read the memorandum and then she would mumble something? A I said that she would glance at them and mumble something. Q She would glance at them? A That's right. Q You mean she never read a memorandum? A I can’t say that she never read a memorandum. Q How many times would you say that she did not read the memorandum? A I said that in April I remembered specifically the inci dent that when I carried the memorandum in and she mumbled that she wasn't a teacher. Q And that's only one occasion, is that right? A That's the only occasion that I can remember specifically where she really did not read it and I can say that she did not read it. Q And you are currently at Pineview, are you not? A Yes. Q How well do you know Mr. Tooks, are you related to him? Q Well, what did you say? 17 1 1A No, I'm not. Q Are you related by marriage? A By marriage. Q Are you Mr. looks' sister-in-law? A Yes. MR. MARSHALL: I have no further questions. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McCLURE: Q Mrs. Hammond, the fact that you might be Mr. Tooks' sister- in-law by marriage, do you feel that you can still tell what you saw and tell it like it was? A Yes, sure. Q Would this relationship make you say that you saw Mrs. White sleeping when she wasn't sleeping? A No, it would not. Q Would it in any way affect the testimony that you have given here today? A No, it would not. May I say something? Q I think probably not. MR. GUARISCO: If counsel will ask you a question you can respond; otherwise, we will wait until one of the asks you a question. MR. McCLURE: I have no further questions. MR. MARSHALL: I have just one question or so. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 m 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARSHALL: Q Isn't it true, Mrs. Hammond, that you told Mrs. White later that you never saw her sleeping or nodding in class A No, I never said that to Mrs. White. Q You never said that to her? A No, I did not. Q Was this only on one occasion that you - - MR. GUARISCO: Mr. Marshall, I believe one of your witnesses just came in, so let's get them sworn in and put under the Rule. (WITNESSES CAME FORWARD, WERE SWORN AMD PLACED UNDER THE RULE BY REPORTER.) BY MR. MARSHALL: Q Mrs. Hammond, was this just one occasion that you enterec Mrs. White's room and you saw her nodding? A I entered Mrs. White's room so many times during the yeai carrying memorandums and several times, more than once, did I see her nodding. As a matter of fact, I have passed her classroom and seen her nodding while I was go ing down the hall. Q You have? A Yes, you know, when your head bobs, you are asleep, usual, Q You could not tell, though, could you? You say you think A Well, when you walk in a classroom and you cross the room to me, in all the other classrooms that I went in, the RECROSS EXAMINATION I teacher immediately noticed me and spoke to me when I walked in. Her eyes would be closed and I would walk right up to her desk before she would say anything. But the occasions when you passed the hall, you could see her clearly? No, I could not say absolutely about that. Now, you say that the children were unruly. Were they really any more unruly than any normal elementary class? For a teacher to be in the classroom, I would say so. But these are elementary children and they are very young. Weren*t the other classrooms in about the same - - No, I can't say that. This was only in Mrs. White's class? No, there were different classes but not all at the same time. So this was not confined, then, to Mrs. White, is that right? That's right but the majority of it was in that hallway over there. There's two, four, six, twelve classrooms in that hall and when I would go down there - - I can't say just exactly what time, but there were several times when I did go by and I felt that the children were quite unrul'r and they were very loud and they were throwing paper and she was sitting there in the room. MR. MARSHALL: No further questions. 19 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. McCLURE: No further questions. MR. GUARISCO: Do you need the witness or can we dismiss her? MR. MARSHALL: We can dismiss her as far as I'm concerned. MR. McCLURE: She can be dismissed. MR. GUARISCO: All right, you may be excused. (WITNESS EXCUSED.) NORMA H. BROOKS was called as a witness and having been previously sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY .MR. McCLURE: Q Would you state your name and address, please? A Norma H. Brooks, 1621 Hernando Drive, Tallahassee. Q And where are you employed? A Pineview Elementary School. Q How long have you been there? A Two years. Q What type work do you do at Pineview? A Fifth grade teacher. Q Fifth grade teacher, and you have been teaching there foi two years, is that right? A Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q How long have you been in the teaching profession? A Fifteen years. Q And where have you taught before you came to Pineview? A At Barrow Hill Elementary School. Q You will have to speak up, now, so everyone can hear you. A All right, that was Barrow Hill Elementary School. Q Do you know Mrs. Alberta White? A Yes, sir, I do. Q How long have you known her? A Well, I really don’t know how long I have known her but I worked with her for two years. Q You have worked with her for two years at Pineview? A Yes, this was at Pineview. Q All right, I would like to direct your attention to the beginning of the *67-'68 school term, not this past one but the term before. On what occasion, if any, have you had to work with Mrs. White? A I was grade level chairman of the fifth grade in *67-'68 and she was working on the fifth grade level. Q Could you tell the Board about what relationship you had with Mrs. White in this type work? A Well, in the beginning of the school year I think we had one misunderstanding at the very beginning of the school year when it was time to give the reading inventory test and she wasn’t agreeable and didn’t think that it was 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 necessary to give it because she thought that it was a waste of time. Q Was this a standard thing required of all teachers to do? A Yes, we were giving the inventory tests to find out the reading levels of the children. Q All right, and where did those instructions come from to find out the reading levels? A I think from the curriculum coordinator. Q Did Mr. Tooks confirm that particular idea? A Well, I'm sure he did. Q And what did Mrs. White say about it? A Well, she said she thought that it was waste of time to give them. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I don't believe the witness is being responsive. The question was asked what did she say and the witness answered as to what Mrs. Whit|e thought. MR. GUARISCO: All right, and I will ask you to talk a little louder, too, so that we can hear. Some of these answers we are barely able to hear. Ask the question aga Mr. McClure, if you will, and we will pick it up from ther MR. McCLURE: I would like to have the Court Reporter read it back, if she would. (LAST QUESTION AND ANSWER READ BY THE REPORTER.) Q She said what, then? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it because it wouldn’t help the children. Q On what occasions have you had to go into Mrs. White'3 room? a Well, I have been in Mrs. White’s room several times. I do remember one time in particular when I went in there and she was sitting to the desk with her had down and - - Q Would you describe to the Board what you mean by having her head down? A Well, down in this manner (demonstrating) and I walked up to her desk and she didn’t move and I called her and she, you know, responded but at first her head was down like this and I walked all the way over to her and I touched her and called to her. Q How many times did you call to her? A Possibly twice. Q Would you come over here and demonstrate where Mrs. White room was? This is a diagram of the school and this is the diagram of the classroom assignment in the '68-'69 year so she might have been in a different room then. A It’s right here, I believe. Q All right, would you tell the Board which direction you came from? A This is my room over here and I came across the hall. Q All right, and would you mark an "X" where Mrs. White's A She said that she thought it was a waste of time to give 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 desk was at that time? A It was sitting about here (indicating.)* Q And you proceeded from the door and would you again tell how you approached Mrs. White? A I came in the door here and walked across to Mrs. White and, of course, she did not move at the time that I came in and then I called her name and then I touched her and after I had touched her she responded. Q Did she respond when you touched her? A Yes. Q All right, you may be seated, (witness seated.) Can you recall any other instances where you observed her with he head down? A Those are the only two times that I remember in ’67-*68. Q Were the children in the room during this time, in the classroom? A Yes, they were. Q Could you tell the Board what the children were doing during this time when you walked into the classroom? A Well, there were a few that seemed to be getting some lessons and over half of them were just talking. Q Then over half of them weren't getting their lessons? A Weren’t getting their lessons, that’s right. Q What instructions did the faculty have, if any, in the ’67-'68 school term about displaying children’s work? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IS 20 21 22 23 24 25 \ A Well, we were supposed to display as much of the children work as possible. Q And where did those instructions come from? A They came from the curriculum coordinator and also the principal, too. Q Why is it important to display children’s work? A Well, I feel it's important because it makes the child - to a certain degree he might feel that he was having a little competition when he sees the work up and sees how others do it and there is an incentive there to him to see his work up. Q When is this work particularly stressed? A When - - well, during the whole school year, really. Q Are there specific occasions around holiday seasons that teachers normally put children's work up? A Well, maybe during holidays but usually the whole year around, really. Q Did you observe or have occasion to go into i'Ars. White's room during any of the holiday seasons? A Well, I imagine I have been in there during the holiday seasons. I did observe that she had a lot of commercial type materials up. Q When was this? A Almost during any holiday. Q What do you mean when you say she had a lot of commercial 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 stuff up there? A Well, the type material that you buy in the store and not the type that children would make. Q On how many holidays did you go into her room? A Oh, I imagine whenever there was an occasion. I just wouldn't go in there. Q What school term was this during? A The 1967-'68. Q Did you have any occasion to go and observe this past school term? A I probably didn't pay any attention this past school year Q What is your professional opinion of the effect of using commercial decorations rather than the children's works; what effect, in your professional opinion as a teacher, would this have on the children? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I object to that becaus there has been no proper foundation. We are going into a psychological area and I don't know whether the witness is qualified. MR. McCLURE: Mr. Chairman, I think she testified that she has been in the teaching profession for fifteen years and I believe that would qualify her as an expert witness. MR. GUARISCO: I'll overrule the objection, go aheac MR. McCLURE: Would you read the question, please? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (QUESTION READ BY REPORTER.) A Well, personally I don't know if it would have ary effect on the child other than children just like to do art work and this type of thing and they like to sse their work up. Q But you also testified that it puts competition in the children's attitude? A Yes, to a certain degree. Q Is this a healthy attitude? A Well, as far as art and if the person can draw, I see nothing wrong with it. Q Now, did your room move during the '68-’69 school year? A It was in the same place. Q It was in the same place, and Mrs. White's room was then moved before this past year? This is a diagram of the school here. A That's right. Q Now, did you go by her room to and from your room? A Whenever I would go to the lounge or the principal's office I would have to pass in that direction, Q All right, and would this be on a daily basis? A Constantly, because the restrooms and the library and the principal's office and everything is on that other end. Q And how often would you see Mrs. White during a school day? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Well, quite often. I really wouldn't know just how often Q But you did see her on a daily basis? A Surely. Q Did you have occasion to observe Mrs. White's personal clothes at the school? A Yes, sir, I did. Q Would you describe in detail the type of clothing that she wore and her appearance in general? A Well, some days she wasn't as tidy as others and some days her clothes seemed to be a little soiled. Q All right, and which would you say would be the most frequent? A Well, untidy, I guess, more so than soiled. Q Untidy? A Yes, more so than soiled. Q In your professional opinion as a teacher, what effect does an untidy appearance have on the children? A I think children like to see teachers tidy and clean. Q In your professional opinion as a teacher, why should a teacher appear tidy and clean? A Well, you are trying to stimulate and teach the child to be tidy and clean so I feel that you need to exemplify those qualities yourself. Q And what effect does a personal appearance have on the teacher% effectiveness to teach and to command respect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and discipline? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I will again object to that because this seems to be going beyond the profession qualifications of this witness. MR. McCLURE: Again, Mr. Chairman, I think that as a teacher of fifteen years she can^form a professional opin as to what effect the appearance of the teacher has on her ability to convey the education she is supposed to give the students. MR. GUARISCO: I am going to overrule this on the basis, Mr. Marshall, that we really don't have a jury here and we just have a panel of officials who are trying to evaluate and be fair on both sides. I think that the question was all right to bring this out but, at the same time, let's stay with materiality and hold the questions down to where you can make a point in the material that you are trying to prove. MR. McCLURE: All right, sir, I sincerely believe that the appearance and the effectiveness of a teacher would be material. MR. GUARISCO: I think you've got a point there that needs to be brought out and the panel can evaluate it. MR. McCLURE: All right, would you repeat the questi< please? (QUESTION READ BY REPORTER.) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I think that if the teacher is tidy and clean, then the children will more or less emulate and, of course, they will follow some of the same things that they see their teacher is doing. q What is your professional opinion on a teacher maintaining a clean classroom? What effect does this have on the children? A Well, I think when the children have been motivated and interested in the classroom that they will try to keep th< classroom as clean as possible, but I think the teacher needs to stress this point. Q What effect would a dirty or a littered classroom have, in your professional opinion, on the students themselves? A Well, it might take away some of the learning habits of the children. Q Then, it would be a distraction, is that what you’re sayi: A Yes. MR. McCLURE: No further questions. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MARSHALL: Q Mrs. Brooks, were you at Barrow Hill at the same time Mr. Tooks was there? A Yes, sir, I was. MR. GUARISCO: Would you speak up a little, please? Q And then how long were you there with Mr. Tooks? A Q 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 «Q 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Q A Q A About six years. And you transferred to Pineview at the same time, or about the same time that .Mr. Tooks transferred, is that right? I did.":. ... Let me clarify once again about the inventory test. You testified that was to test the reading capacity of the children, is that right? Yes, trying to place the children together according to their needs and skills that they needed in reading. Does that test, then, determine the interest level of the student or the reading level of the student? Well, it tests the reading level and, of course, this is where we will place them according to the skills that they need. Now, was that test administered, this test that you're talking about? Yes, it was administered. So what you were saying was just an opinion given by Mrs. White, you didn't mean to say that she refused to give the test, did she? At first, she was reluctant but if I recall correctly I think she did administer it. She did, because the children were placed, so she did 25 give the test? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A That's right. Q And I suppose you have many opinions, just like the ones you expressed today? so A Well, I had the right to do/on that one because of what she said. Q I mean, but you have your own personal opinions about things? A You mean about anything? Q That's right. A Surely. Q Just like Mrs. White had a personal opinion then, that had nothing to do with running the school or giving of the tests because one was given? A Well, it had something to do with the test because she made the statement. Q But on the administrative level this had nothing to do with it because the test was given? A Well, the possibility that it was delayed and was not given at the time designated. Q Was it delayed? A Offhand, I really can't remember. Q Tell me what time are teachers normally - - what time do teachers arrive at Pineview Elementary School in the mornings, can you tell us that? A Eight o'clock. Is that the time you arrive? Eight or a little before. Is there any requirement that you be there before eight o'clock? MR. McCLURE: Your Honor, Mr. Chairman, I would like to object to that line of questioning. I don't believe I brought anything out in direct about the time. MR. GUARISCO: No, there was not. I don't recall anything being brought out about the time of arrival. I think this was Mr. Tooks a couple of days ago that testi fied on this. MR. MARSHALL: Respectfully, Mr. Chairman, nothing was brought out about the condition of Mrs. White's room but the question was asked, what, in your opinion,would the appearance of the room have on children and I think that I can relate it to other testimony. MR. GUARISCO: All right, I will allow you to ask the question but hold the questions to what is really pertinent to direct examination. / MR. MARSHALL: Well, I withdraw the question. Mrs. Brooks, the commercial arts that's on the bulletin board during the school year, where does that come from? You purchase It. Does the school purchase that? No, individuals purchase that type material. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q And do you also purchase that type of material? A No. Q You do not? A No. Q How about other teachers, have you observed any other commercial material by other teachers? A I imagine some of the other teachers do purchase it. Q You have seen it in the school, is that right? A I don't remember seeing it. Q You don't remember seeing it? A Offhand, I don't remember seeing it. Q But you do remember seeing it in Mrs. White's room? A Yes. Now, when I say I don't remember seeing it, I don'1 remember seeing it there at Pineview but I do remember some years ago we used to purchase it but I do not re member seeing any there. I don’t remember offhand seeinc any. Q So you didn't see any in Mrs. White's room? A Well, I said that I saw some in hers, because I had a reason to go in there. Q Did you also go in all the other rooms, other than Mrs. White's and your own? A Yes, occasionally. Q Do you observe these other rooms when you go in them? A Naturally, when you go in a room you observe them. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q And you can’t recall seeing any of that commercial art ir other rooms other than Mrs. White’s? A Offhand, right now, I can’t. Q Is there any particular reason why you remember Mrs. Whi1 room? A Well, as being grade level chairman, you are naturally going into the room constantly and when you go into a room you certainly would observe it, yes. Q Did you go into other rooms constantly? A No, I would have no reason to. Q Now, would there be any work at all by the students on the bulletin board? A I remember on one or two occasions I did see a few pieces of art work demonstrated. Q Now, tell us what you mean. You say that you had occasior to place on the bulletin board - - you said you had in structions to place on the board as much work of the students as possible, is that what you said? A That’s right. Q And in certain instances it was varied, I suppose, as to the amount of work that could be placed on the bulletin board, is that right? A That’s right. Q Now, you talked about the dress of Mrs. White and said that it was untidy on occasions. Was the occasions more untidy rather than tidy? Well, I mean to me. To you? Yes. S ; So that that's just your personal opinion, is that it? Yes. Would you say that she is untidy today? No, she doesn’t seem to be untidy today. Did you report these occasions when you would notice the dress of Mrs. White, as well as her conduct in the class room, would you report this to the principal, Mr. Tooks? Definitely no. You would not? I would not. Why wouldn’t you? I wouldn't have any reason to. Certainly other teachers also on some days would be a bit untidy at Pineview, would they not? I imagine there are occasions when all of us might be. That's right, so how about the time you testified you noticed Mrs. White? Did you say that she was asleep when you came into the room? She seemed to be asleep to me because anytime you walk into a room and walk all the way across the room to a person and call to them, call their name, and they don't 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - - answer, to me they would be asleep. Q When was this, if you can recall? A This was in the year '67-’68. Q Did you report that? A I would not have any reason to report anything like that. Q Did you on any other occasions see this except this once? A I saw it twice. Q Twice? A That's right. Q And when was the next time? A This was during '67-*68. Q Both was during the '67-'68 year? A Yes. Q Did you report either of these two instances to - - A I had no reason to report this. Q And you know that she did teach there last year, is that right? A That's right. MR. MARSHALL: I have no further questions. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McCLURE: Q Mrs. Brooks, on Mrs. White's untidiness, did you observe or would you say that you observed her untidiness on isolated instances or was it a common occurrence? A To me it was a common occurrence, not just certain instar 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 IS 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Would this be a common occurrence in the '67-'68 school term? A That's right. Q And did this practice continue in the '68-'69 term? A Well, several of the times that X saw her. Q Which term was this in? A '68-'69. Q So then you observed her untidy appearance over a two-yea period? A That's right. MR. McCLURE: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Marshall has stated that we did not bring out any testimony as to the appear ance of Mrs. White's classroom through the testimony of Mrs. Brooks here but, if I recall correctly, I think we did ask her that. MR. GUARISCO: I think you did too, but that, of course, will be evidenced in the record to be reviewed later. MR. McCLURE: Well, I wanted to ask her several questions on redirect and I would like a ruling from the Chair. MR. GUARISCO: No, I didn't say you hadn't done it. I distinctly remember you asking about the tidiness of the room and so forth. If you have some questions you want to ask in that direction, you may proceed. 39 MR. McCLURE: All right, thank you. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, may I just have a con tinuing objection to any quetioning now about the appearahce or the cleanliness or tidiness of the room. This certain|L has not been gone into on cross. MR. McCLURE: I think on redirect that I’m allowed to ask some more questions on this. MR. GUARISCO: I am going to allow you to ask the questions. If it only goes to exploring both sides of this and allowing all the record to be complete for us to really arrive at a conclusion. BY MR. McCLURE: Q Could you tell the Board what you observed and the appear ance of Mrs. White's classroom on the times that you have been in there? A Well, I remember one time, you know, there was just a lot of paper and children all over the floor and things like that on several occasions. Q And did you observe anything else in the classroom so far as untidiness or uncleanliness? A Well, she did have some curtains with a lot of boxes and stuff back of them and the curtains were just thrown up at that time and the boxes were showing. Q What was under the curtains? A Boxes and things like that. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q What kind of boxes are you talking about? A Well, the only thing I remember are corrugated boxes but I don't know or did not observe what was in them. Q What about during the '68-'69 school term, what did you observe insofar as the appearance was concerned? A Well, only by passing the door. I didn't have much occasion to go in her classroom during the '68-'69 schoo . year. Q But you say that you did pass the door? A I did pass the door. Q What did you observe when you passed the door? A Well, I observed the children playing and several times she would be sitting up with her head in her hand like that. MR. McCLURE: No further questions. RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MARSHALL: Q You now talk about curtains being hung. Are there close|t in these rooms? A Yes, sir, there are. Q Is there one in Mrs. White's room? A That's right. Q Mrs. Brooks, isn't it true that the conduct that you hav|e described, like the kids talking, this is a normal oc currence at Pineview, isn't that right, the kids talking'; 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Well, they talk at all schools to a certain degree. Q In addition, if a person’s head is in his hand, as her head was in her hand, there’s nothing wrong with that, is there? I'm sure that your head has been in your hand on occasion while you have been a teacher at Pineview, is that right? A I don't recall. Q You don't recall, and do I understand you correctly to sa that you did not visit Mrs. White’s classroom as often in '68-'69, in that school year? A That’s right, because we were working on different grades Q And even paper being on the floor, I'm sure there’s papei on the floor in your classroom sometimes, isn't that righ A Yes, but I’ll say that it was a large quantity of paper on the floor in her room. Q Did you ask Mrs. White why there was a large quantity of paper there? A No, I did not. Q So you don't know why or how it got there? A I surely did not. Q And this was on one occasion? A That’s right. Q In ’68-'69 or ’67-'68? A This was one occasion when I just passed the door in '68-’69. 42 MR. MARSHALL: No further questions. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY Q Q A MR. McCLURE: Mr. Marshall has asked you about kids normally talking. What degree of noise does the normal talking of children in the class compare with the degree of noise you heard in Mrs. White's class? Well, there was a great degree of noise during that time. We minimize the talking as much as possible because we feel that we can do a better job of teaching when we have less noise. Is there any doubt in your mind that Mrs. White was asleep at those times that you observed her? I would say that she was asleep. MR. McCLURE: No further questions. MR. GUARISCO: All right, are there any questions of the Board? I believe then that we can, without objec tion, dismiss this witness. You, Mrs. Brooks, may leave for the day and go about your business. Let's take a break but before we do, gentlemen, let me say that we have only had two witnesses in an hour. At the rate we are going we will be here all night, so let’s see if we can speed this up and get the pertinent material in the record but, at the same time, speed it up somewhat. Let' take about a five or ten minute break. s 43 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (BRIEF RECESS WAS TAKEN.) JUANITA HOLLIS appeared as a witness and having been previously sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McCLURE: Q Would you state your name and address, please? A Juanita Hollis, 3114 Glenwood Drive. Q Now, if you would just, in answer to ray questions, take your time and talk up where everybody can hear you and talk clear because the air conditioner is going and it is hard to hear. Where do you woik, Mrs. Hollis? A Where do I work now? Q Yes. A Hartsfield Elementary School. Q Where did you work prior to that time? A You mean all the years or just the year prior to this? Q Just start at the year back of that. A Pineview. Q How long did you work at Pineview? A Two years. Q What was your job at Pineview? A Fourth grade teacher. Q And how long have you been a teacher, Mrs. Hollis? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A About eleven or twelve years. Q Where did you teach prior to coming to Pineview? A Bond Elementary School. Q And prior to that, or was that the beginning of your teaching career? A I worked in Georgia, Cairo, Georgia. Q And how long did you teach school at Pineview? A Two years. Q What years was that? A It was '67-'68 and '68-'69. Q Do you know Alberta White? A Yes, I do. Q And where was your room in relation to Mrs. White’s room? A For the past year it was right across the hall. Q What about the year before? A She was down the hall from me. I don't know just how many rooms down now. Q All right, this is a diagram of the school last year. Would you come to the board and show the Board where youx room is? A (Witness to blackboard.) It was right here - - you mean last year? Q Yes, here's the office and here's the cafeteria and here are the restrooms and this is Mrs. White's room. Where was yours? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IS 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Right there. Q Almost directly across the hall? A Yes, sir. Q All right, you may be seated. (witness seated.) I would like to direct your attention to May and June of 1969, this past school year. During May and June, did you have occasion to pass by or observe Mrs. White's room? A Not to observe her room but, you know, just pass by it and notice it. Q Did you notice her room from your classroom? Could you see her room from your classroom? A If I were directly in front of the room. Q Did you notice or did you see anything unusual during May and June of the children or anything like that? A Not necessarily, no. Q What, if anything, did you observe of the children cominc in and out of the classroom or Mrs. White's room? A I would say for you to be a little more specific about what you are referring to. Q Did you have occasion to see the children coming in and out of Mrs. White's classroom during the school day? A You mean when they would come in and out from PE or from music or something of that nature? Q Then and at any other time while the classes were in session. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Not necessarily observe but you could see from time to time that they would walk in and out of the room. Q Did you see any of the children coming in and out of the room while the class was in session? A Yes, you would see them. Q Did you ever have any occasion to send Mrs. White’s children back to her classroom? A Not necessarily send them back. Q All right, what occasion did you have to talk with her children out in the hall, if any? A Well, once I asked a couple of the children if they knew where they were supposed to be. Q Would you explain that to the Board? That’s the point I’m getting at. A Well, once or twice I happened to notice the children in the hall and I happened to know that they were Mrs. White children, so I just asked them, because I just noticed them in the hall and I didn’t know why they were there, I would ask them where they were supposed to be and they would say - - well, they never would answer me about where they were supposed to be and I would say, "Well, do you know where you are supposed to be," and they would say yes and that was all. I didn’t go directly behind them to see if they were going where they were supposed to be or not, but I did mention to them, "Did you know 47 Q A Q A Q 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 || A 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 <‘d Q where you were supposed to be" and they would say yes. What did you do when you found out where they were suppos to be? I never found out where they were supposed to be. Did you send them back to Mrs. White’s classroom? No, I didn’t necessarily send them back. In your professional opinion is it normal to have children coming in and out of the classroom a 11 during the day? That all depends on the purpose for them going in and out of the room. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, once again there has been no testimony about children coming in and out of anybody’s classroom. MR. McCLURE: Mr. Chairman, I believe she testified that she did see some out in the hallway and she talked to them. MR. GUARISCO: Mr. Marshall, if you have reference to other witnesses that, of course, has no bearing on what the other witnesses have said. He asked the questic earlier and she replied that there were some students ou . in the hall, that she did see students out of the class room while classes were in session and I think he -an pursue and develop that further so I am going to overrule the objection. Go ahead, Mr. McClure. In your professional opinion, is it a normal practice fo. n 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a teacher to have three or four of her children out all the time in the halls outside the classroom? A Well, the way you say it, "all the time" - - Q Well, during the classroom day. A As I said earlier, it all depends on why they are out and I don’t know whether it would be normal or not, but the way you asked me that question, I'm not sure. Q Did you see any children out of Mrs. White’s classroom and in the hall that woJd be in an abnormal situation? A I really had no way of knowing whether this was abnormal. Q All right, we won’t pursue that any further. Now, I wouls like to direct your attention to the spring of 1969, also. Were you present at a meeting in Mr. Tooks’ office when Mrs. White was also present? A Yes. Q Would you tell or describe to the Board what you heard the purpose of the meeting to be and the reaction of any people that were there? A Well, I can state this briefly but, you know, I can't give you exactly every detail. MR. GUARIXO: Let me say this, Mr. McClure, and to the witness. We would like to get everything we can on this matter. A woman's job depends on it but, at the sane time, the reputation for the school system and what is beneficial for the students is involved. If you have the 49 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 answer to these questions don't hedge, give him the answer, and if you don't have the answer, just tell him you don't have it, but let’s get the answers out where the record can show it and we can evaluate it. Would you testify as to what took place in the room, please. I was called to the office and when the meeting started, it was early in the morning sometime but I don't remember the exact time. To me it appeared that Mr. Tooks wanted to talk to Mrs. White to tell her some of the things that he was expecting and that he was displeased with and I was just sitting there to listen. Why had you been called into that meeting? Why had I been called into the meeting? Yes, uh-huh, were you a grade level chairman or something like that? Yes. Please tell the Board, if you will, what took place and what you observed. Well, the best I can remember of what took place is that when we were called in and Mr. Tooks explained the purpose of why we were there and the main thing was to tell Mrs. White of some of the things she was not doing that he felt she should be doing and, to be specific, I can't name too many things. I remember one thing that he men tioned was about the bulletin board and said that she was 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 not working up to what expected of her. In essence, that what he was talking about and there were several things said but for me to tell you word for word what was said I can't do it. Q Well, all right, just to the best of your recollection. What was Mrs. White's reaction to this conference with Mr. Tooks? A Well, she sat there and she listened for awhile and when she had an opportunity to defend herself, she did. Q Would you describe - - did she start crying or anything like that? A Well, to me she didn't start crying in there. Of course, I did see a tear roll down her face. Q Would you continue, then, and tell us what you saw or wha you saw or observed until she left the office and then after that? A Would you state that again, please? Q Would you tell the Board what you observed when she started to respond to to. Tooks, to Mr. Tooks' questions, and the conversation from the time she started to responc and when she left the room? A You mean to be specific about what she said? Q I don't mean specific, but generally. How did she act from that time until right after she left the room? A Well, this was a question that was asked and she was 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 IS 18 17 18 IS 20 21 22 23 24 25 attempting to answer. He would say certain things and she was trying to answer and give her reasons why she was doing certain things. She would do this at that particul. time. Q Did she become emotional? A Well, it didn’t appear that she was too emotional in the office, not to me. Q All right, what about outside the office? A Once she left out of the office, she started back to the classroom and at this time she had tears coming down her face. I said to her, I said, "Mrs. White, I think it wou be best for you to go down to the lounge and get yourself together before you go back to the classroom." She said that she didn’t want to go to the lounge and she would prefer going home, or something of that nature that she said and she stepped in the hall and I still tried to persuade her to go to the lounge and she wouldn’t do it. I did not feel that she should let the children see her crying. Q Why did you feel like the children ought not to see her crying? A I just didn’t feel she should let them see her cry. Q Was she crying at this point? A Well, not in an outburst of a cry but the tears were run ning down her face and, to me, you shouldn’t ever let the 52 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ! A 10 2 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 | BY 23 24 25 Q A Q A Q A Q A Q children see you upset in that nature. What, in your professional opinion, would this have as to the effect on the children, to see the teacher in this state? Well, I don’t know, but I just don't feel you should let the children know that something was wrong and you certainly could not be yourself in the classroom. Did Mrs. White return to her classroom? Not at this particular time. She did turn and some other teachers came up and she turned and went to the lounge. Then where did you go after that? I went on to my room. Were any of Mrs. White's students out in the hall or any thing like that at that time? Yes, some of her children were there. Did you see Mrs. White return to the classroom? Later on I did. You say later on, was this after she had gone to the lounge? Yes. MR. McCLUREs No further quistions. CROSS EXAMINATION MR. MARSHALL: Mrs.Hollis, your room was almost across the hall from Mrs. White's room during the 1968-'69 school year? Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Did you have occasion to observe Mrs. White's room and the general condition of her room from time to time durin< that school year? A Not necesarily observe her classroom. If you are saying had I been in there, yes. Q You had been in there? A Yes. Q On these occasions when you went in was the room untidy or how would you describe it? What did you see when you went in there? A Well, I didn't go in the classroom to see the room but just walking in I didn't see that it was untidy. Q How many times would you say that you have gone in the room during the '68-'69 school year? A It would be hard for me to answer that specifically. Q Would it be more than once? A Yes. Q More than twice? A Yes. Q More than five times? A I don't know about that but probably so. Q Now, Mr. McClure asked you about children in the hall anc you said once that you asked some students to return baci to Mrs. White's classroom. A Not necessarily to return but I asked them, you know, wh< 54 were they doing in the hall and did they know where they were supposed to be. And did they just leave or did you tell them to go some place? No, I didn't tell them to go any place. They just told me yes, that they knew where they were supposed to go. But you didn't know why those students were in the hall, did you? No. Now, Mr. McClure said or asked you was it unusual or ab normal for children to be always in the halls. Did you see children always in the hall in front of Mrs. White’s door or near Mrs. White's room? No. How many times would you say you saw children near her room in the hall? To answer the question, there might have been some childrjen from other classrooms that would be walking down the hall as well so it would be hard for me to say how many times I saw children in the hall by her room. So there would be children from other classrooms walking up and down the hall from time to time as a common oc currence? Yes. Now, did you ever, on the times that you were in Mrs. White's 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A classroom, did you ever see her asleep or appear to be asleep to you? No. When you were in the classroom, tell me, is it a common practice in the Pineview Elementary School to have comme cial art displayed on the bulletin boards, is that common Ask that question again. Is it a common practice for commercial art to be displaye on bulletin boards at the Pineview Elementary School? Not necessarily a common practice but you would see some You would see some? Yes. Did you have some in your room? Yes, some. And did you see some in any of the other teachers' rooms that you would go into from time to time? You would see some. Now, the times that you went into Mrs. White's room, did you see any work by the children on the bulletin boards? Yes, I've seen some children's work. Now, let me direct your attention to the spring of 1969, that meeting. Was that the spring of '69 or was that November of '68 that you are talking about? Well, to be exact, I wasn't sure what time of the year ii was but I was told that it was in November. I just know that it happened during the school term. Now, let's go back to that meeting. Was there anything said by Mr. Tooks that would upset Mrs. White or make hei become emotional? Well, I couldn't be specific and state anything definite that was said but, to me, maybe if it was myself and the person was talking to me that it probably would have ups^t me some. It would te/e upset you some? Yes. Can you recall specifically what was said or what, in general, was said to make you upset? No, I can't think of anything specific. But you can recall that it probably would have made you upset had you been the person to whom this was directed t|o? Yes. Now, during the '67-'68 and the '68-'69 school years, die you also see - - you would see Mrs. White, naturally, frem time to time? Yes. Can you recall anything out of the ordinary about her appearance on these times when you saw her? MR. McCLUREs Mr. Chairman, I would like to object 56 to that because I don't believe I brought anything out b> this witness as to her appearance. MR. GUARISCO: I will sustain that. There was nothirg on direct in that respect. MR. MARSHALL: Respectfully, Mr. Chairman, he did go into occasions when Mrs. Hollis did see students and he did ask her whether she would come into the room so, ap parently she did go into the room and apparently she did because she was the teacher and she would have to see Mrs. White. That was brought out on direct and the fact that she was a teacher there for two years and was right across the hall. MR. GUARISCO: That’s true, but nothing specific was in the - - Could we have that question read back again? (QUESTION READ BY REPORTER.) MR. GUARISCO: You are talking about personal appeal- ance, now? MR. MARSHALL: Personal appearance, yes. MR. GUARISCO: Nothing was brought out in that respect with regard to this witness on direct examination so I will overrule that. I sustain Mr. McClure but his request is overruled. Mrs. Hollis, I believe there were some questions as to being based on your professional opinion as a teacher - MR. MARSHALL: I will withdraw that, no further questions. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McCLURE: Q In this conference that you had in the office with Mr. Tot and Mrs. White, when Mrs. White was being questioned thext and right after she left and when she went cut into the hall, did she at any time scream at the top of her voice or make any outburst or anything like that? A Not immediately after she left out of the office but she did scream some. Q When did she scream? A During the time that she was on her way to the lounge. Q Was it a loud scream or what? A Yes, I would say so. Q Was she crying at this time? A Well, yes. Not necessarily, you know, crying but as far as tears running down her face, yes. Q And she was screaming? A Yes. Q What was she saying when she was screaming? A I don't know if I can state exactly. Q To the best of your recollection, and this is real import A I'm trying to think if I can say exactly what it was. Q Did she direct those screams at anyone individual? A No, she didn't direct it to one individual. Q Do you recall what she might have been screaming? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I can't think of any particular words. There wasn't any thing as far as words were concerned, really, it was just real emotional. Q Was she screaming at the top of her voice? A Well, it was just loud. That's the best I can describe i MR. McCLURE: No further questions. MR. GUARISCO: Do the Board members have any questio|n (No response.) Can this witness be excused? MR. MARSHALL: I would like, Mr. Chairman, to have Mrs. Hollis remain. We might possibly call her as a part of our presentation. MR. GUARISCO: All right, she will then have to go back to the witness room and do not discuss this case with anyone. ANCHOR FLYNN was called as a witness and having been previously sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY /MR. McCLURE: Q Would you give us your name and address, please, Ma'am? A I am Mrs. Anchor Flynn and I live at 212b Jackson Bluff Road, Apartment X-102. Q All right, and where do you work, Mrs. Flynn? A I work at Pineview Elementary School. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q What is your job there? A Kindergarten teacher. Q How long have you been teaching at Pineview? A This will be my second year. Q This coming year? A Yes, sir. Q So you have been at Pineview for one year, is that right? A Yes, sir. Q How long have you been in the teaching profession? A This will be my third and a half year. I did spend one summer in Head Start. Q Do you know Mrs. Alberta White? A Yes, sir. Q Would you point her out to the Board? A She’s the lady sitting right next to the gentleman in the blue shirt. Q How long have you known Mrs. White? A The year that she and I both taught at Pineview at the same time. Q All right, I direct your attention to this past school year, in November of this past school year. A Yes, sir. Q And I ask you to tell the Board about any meetings or any other groupings that you might have attended where Mrs. White was present. As best I can remember she and I were at all of the same faculty meetings which were held in the library. Did you attend all of the faculty meetings there? Yes, sir, as far as I remember. Did you ever - - what, if anything, did you ever observe Mrs. White doing out of the ordinary at faculty meetings? I remember one particular faculty meeting. It might have been two, now, but I am not sure of the number, where Mrs. White made quite a point of turning her back to Mr. Tooks and to whomever would be standing at the podium speaking. Have you ever observed anything else that Mrs. White did? Yes, sir, she frequently slept through faculty meetings. She slept? Yes, sir. How could you tell she was asleep? Well, I assume that if a person is sitting at a table resting their arm with their eyes closed and a rhythmic breathing, that this means that they are asleep. And when was this that you remember? You say you rememb€ a specific faculty meeting. When was that specific facu] meeting, and I don’t mean the day but at what particular time? ty The previous instance that I spoke of was toward the end of the year. I would say that it was either March, Apri:. or May, sometime in the spring. The other occurred inter mittently throughout the year. And when you talk about the "other" what do you mean? I mean the sleeping. On how many occasions did you observe Mrs. White asleep a; faculty meetings? I would say at least three or four times. And this was during the school term? Yes, sir. Now, you being a teacher at Pineview Elementary School, too, you had occasion to see Mrs. White on a daily basis? I wouldn't say that I saw her every day, now, but I usual., saw all faculty members at least once a week. What can you tell the Board, if anything, about Mrs. Whiti general appearance? Well, I would say that in my opinion Mrs. White’s appear ance could be better. Could you tell why and how? Well, I feel like if we are teachers instructing children that we should at least be what I would term neat and clean and presentable. We are there to set an example and many times I felt like Mrs. White's dress was inappro priate . All right, is this your professional opinion as a teacher'. Yes, sir. Can you remember in specifics what you may have observed of Mrs. White's appearance? One particular instance I remember that she wore what I would term as more of a type of an evening dress. It had sheer net sleeves and was kind of long, black Crepe, so to speak, and with it she wore loafers and they weren't very clean. You say they weren't very clean? No, sir. What about her other clothes, were they very clean? At the different times that I had seen her, no, they were not clean. They appeared as if they had been worn many times. What effect, in your professional opinion, does this have on the children? Teachers have several duties and the main job, of course, is to teach. If you are with a child from morning to the late afternoon, you should present to him a good example. He should be able to look up to you and say that this is perhaps he might work to be and if she is setting the ex ample for her children it was inappropriate. Now, did you have an occasion to hear anything that your little boy may have said with regard to - - Yes. \j*: MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I must object to anything 63 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ! that any little boy said as not being relevant to this hearing. MR. GUARISCO: Let me ask this: was this said in the presence of Mrs. White? MR. McCLURH: No, sir, I don’t think so. WITNESS: No, sir, it wasn't. MR. GUARISCO: Under the hearsay rule, then, I would have to sustain the objection. MR. McCLURE: No further questions. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MARSHALL: Q Mrs. Flynn, what is your first name? A Anchor. Q How do you spell that? A A-n-c-h-o-r. Q Now, you say that you would see Mrs. White at least once a week? A Yes, sir. Q It's not your testimony that everytime you saw her she was untidyj that's not your testimony, is it? A Mr. Marshall, I don't remember every time that I saw her. Q You also saw other teachers at Pineview ? A Yes, sir. Q And I'm certain you must have seen other teachers who, or occasion and in your opinion, of course, were not what 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you would call immaculate, that they, too, were untidy on occasion? A If you mean untidy from a day's work with children, yes, sir. I, myself, have been that way. Q No, I mean untidy from a dress standpoint. A Not to the extent as Mrs. White, no, sir. Q But they would be untidy? A Not unclean and not in a dress that had been worn for several days, no. Q My question is whether or not they were untidy. A To some degree. Q Just like anybody could be untidy on occasion, that's human nature almost, isn't it? A Not to the extent of Mrs. White, no, sir. Q But it is a part of human nature? A We can all be untidy, yes, sir. Q Can you remember occasions when she was not so untidy? A I remember one distinct occasion and that is the only one that I remember. Q No, when she was not so untidy. A Yes, sir, it was very much to the other extreme, yes, sir. Q And the only untidy condition that really sticks out is just that one time with the black dress and - - A No, sir, I would say that was inappropriate dress at that time. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Not untidy, inappropriate? A Inappropriate and untidy, yes, sir. Q Mrs. Flynn, this is a chart of the 1968-'69 school year. Can you indicate to us where your room is? A Last year? Q Yes. A It's the second column from the right, the first one at the bottom where it says "Flynn". Q You could not observe Mrs. White’s room from where you were, could you, wasn’t that a different wing? A While I was in my room and she was in hers, is that what you mean? Q Eight. A No, sir. Q Do you have occasion to display commercial art in your classroom? MR. McCLURE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to object to that question because I don’t believe I brought out anything on direct. MR. GUARISCO: I'm sorry, I missed that. Would you repeat the question? (QUESTION READ BY REPORTER.) MR. McCLURE: And I objected because in my direct examination I did not bring that out. MR. GUARISCO: I don't recall anything on direct on 67 A 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 || A 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q Q A Q A that particular subject so I am going to sustain that objection. Now, in the faculty meetings, Mrs. Flynn, you say on one occasion Mrs. White turned her back to the speaker? I didn't mean to pinpoint a certain number, Mr. Marshall. I said that this occurred in the latter part of the year. I know it happened at least once and it might have been twice. In these meetings did you observe any conduct by other teachers that you felt in your opinion may be like Mrs. White's? Now, you're speaking of the attitude that she might have projected when she turned her back? Yes. No, sir, I did not. Would you observe others who may be talking while the speaker was talking? Occasionally. If the comment provokes discussion among c large group of people, teachers are just as bad as childi Yes, they will sit and talk. And that could be the same manifestation as turning your back? No, sir. In your opinion it could not? Yes, sir, in my opinion it could not. en. Did you have assigned seats when you would go into the faculty meetings? No, sir. So then would you sit anywhere near Mrs. White or would it vary? I can remember perhaps one occasion where we sat near each other. But on other occasions you would be some distance away or at least not right next to her? Not necessarily, we could be anywhere. But on these occasions were you really close enough to see that she was sleeping or was that just your opinion? On one I would say that she and I were as close and myself and /At . Tooks right now at the table. How could you tell she was asleep? Well, do you want me to demonstrate? MR. GUARISCO: Let’s let the lady demonstrate. We want to get to the facts of the case and maybe she can show us exactly what happened. (witness demonstrated position of respondent.) Do that again so that we can all see it. (Witness complied.) And then there would be what I termed rhythmic breathing. You know, when a person sleeps there are certain sounds through the nostrils and the mouth ane this is what I heard and I could see. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q I thought you said you weren't close except on one occasii A I say that this is the one particular instance that I remember, Mr. Marshall. Q Well, when you demonstrated were you asleep? A No, sir, I was not. Q And by the same token, she might have not been asleep? A Yes, sir, I would assume that she would be the only per son who would know that she was really and truly asleep. Q You didn't go over and shake her and tell her to wake up, did you? A No, sir. Q Did anybody do that? A Not that I remember, no. Q And there were other people close to her, obviously? A At this particular time I think we were the only two people at the table because it was a table back in a corner of the library. Q On other occasions certainly there would be people next to her and they didn't shake her to wake her up? A No, sir, they did not. MR. MARSHALL: No further questions. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McCLURE: Q I would like to ask you about three or four questions on redirect. On what occasion did you testify that you reca 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mrs. White was dressed extra nice? A This was, let’s see, Memorial Day, May 30th. Q And why do you remember it was Memorial Day? A Maybe it was May 31st. Well, Number one, it was a holiday and I felt like we shouldn't be in school and, number two there was also a program that day and I had discussed the subject with my children. Q Who was in charge of that program? A Mrs. White and her class. Q Were their parents and the rest of the faculty there? A Well, the way we do a program is that if there is an intermediate teacher in charge of the program, then that wing goes to the program and if it's primary, then it goes the other way. I presume the faculty from that wing was at that program, yes,sir; I was not. Q You were not what? A I was not at the program. Q But you did observe her dress on that day? A Yes, sir, I did. Q And did you observe Mrs. White anywhere else on that day? A Yes, sir, I saw her later on during the day. I saw her earlier in the morning and then later in the afternoon. Q But this was the day she had the program or the assembly for Memorial Day? A Yes, sir. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q What is your opinion of her dress on that day as compared to what you generally saw her dressed as? A Well, in my opinion Mrs. White looked absolutely lovely that day. She had on a very attractive dress, which I think was red, white and blue and matching shoes and I believe a bag. Her hair was fixed very attractively and she looked quite nice that day. Q And then how did you observe her generally during the school year? A As a complete contrast that day as compared to any other time that 1 had ever seen her. Q By contrast, do you mean that - - MR. MARSHALL: I object to what Mr. McClure is about to testify to. Obviously you can do better than that. MR. McCLURE: Thank you, Mr. Marshall, but I wasn't about to testify to anything. MR. GUARISCO: All right, proceed, Mr. McClure. Q Did you make a comparison on what she generally dressed like - - you say it was a complete contrast, what do you mean by that? A The day of her program, in my opinion, she looked the way she should look all the time for school. Perhaps not high heels all the time but her appearance was very cheerful. Q How was her general appearance during the remainder of th< school term? A It was not godd at all. Q What do you mean by not good? A Well, she was untidy, not very clean, her hair not always combed, this type of thing. Q Mr. Marshall has asked you about your being maybe a distance from Mrs. White at faculty meetings and about being able to tell whether she was asleep or not. Is there anything wrong with your vision? A No, sir. Q What vision do you have? A Well, I don't wear glasses at any time so I assume it's 20/20, or whatever it's supposed to be. Q Now, you stated that she was breathing in a rhythmic type manner and that were sounds coming through her mouth and nostrils. Is there a term that you might use for this? A Light snoring. MR. McCLURE: Thank you, no further questions. RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MARSHALL: Q You mean to say that she could sit on "X" number of oc casions in faculty meetings and snore and nobody would say anything to her? A Yes, sir. Q Nobody would say one word? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I am saying, Mr. Marshall, that I never observed anyone awakening her, that’s what I'm saying. Q And she would snore in such a way that you could hear he: A Well, I don’t believe that I said loud snoring. I said light snoring and this occurred when I sat hear her, near enough that I could hear her. Q And this was just on the one occasion that you were near her and not everytime? A As far as hearing her, I could hardly hear her across the room. Q And you heard the snoring when she was next to you and you said nothing to her? A That’s right. Q Did you mention this to Mr. Tooks? A I did not. Q Now, on personal appearance wouldn't you say that Mrs. White's dress on that Memorial Day was kind of extra special because it was an assembly program that she had to conduct? A I say it was extra special because it was much different than anything she had ever worn. Q Would that be your standards, your being a much younger woman than Mrs. White? A No, sir, I would never say that. Q You would never say what? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A That an older person shoiild wear something much different than a younger person. Q You wouldn't say that? A No, sir, I would not because I'm not that young. Q Would you say that an older person should wear the same dresses as a younger person? A It depends on how many years there are between the young person and the older person. Q Just one more question or so to clear up a point. You said "general appearance," meaning cheerful and the way - - did you mean dress or did you mean manner and some thing other than physical dress? A I mean her appearance, as I am looking at you right now. Q But it may very well be that a person can't afford to look that way every day, is that right? A No, sir, I wouldn't say that. I think anyone in the United States of America can afford to be clean. Q We were talking about tidy and untidy, not cleanliness and uncleanliness. A That's right, but cleanliness has to do with tidiness in my opinion. Q Are you saying she was unclean or untidy? A On occasion I have noticed both, yes, sir. Q You have noticed both? A Yes, sir. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Have you noticed that among other teachers at - - A No, sir, I have not. Q Have you observed untidiness on the part of the other teachers at Pineview? A I think I answered that before, yes. Q And have you observed uncleanliness on the part of other teachers at Pineview Elementary School? A No, sir. Q But then you don’t see them all every day, do you? A No, sir. MR. MARSHALL: No further questions. MR. McCLURE: No further questions. MR. GUARISCO: Any questions from the Board? (No response.) Any objection to this witness being excused for the day? Ml. MARSHALL: I have no objection. MR. McCLURE: Is there any objection from the Board or counsel if she would like to remain in the room? MR. GUARISCO: She can stay if she wants to, the choice is hers 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GLORIA JEFFERSON was called as a witness by the Board, and having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McCLURE: Q State your name and address, please. A Gloria Jefferson, 1630 N.E. Capital Circle. 0 Where do you work, Miss Jefferson? A Pineview Elementary School. Q What is your job there? A Secretary, bookkeeper. Q How long have you been secretary there? A At Pineview since April of 196S. Q In your job as secretary do you have any occasion to — first of all, do you know Mrs. White sitting there? A Yes, I do. y Would you describe that that's her sitting at the end of the table? A Yes, sir. Q That is Mrs. White? A Yes. Q In your job as secretary did you have any occasion to talk with Mrs. White or deliver messages to her? A Yes, I have. Q On delivering of messages how many times would you deliver messages to Mrs. White? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Well, I really canft say the number of times but I have delivered messages quite often out of the office and whenever there were messages to take, I would take them. y Would this be on a daily basis? A Yes, sir. y When you took messages to Mrs. White, who were these messages from? A Mr. Tookes. y All right, and when you delivered them to Mrs. White did you deliver them to her room? A Yes. Q What was her response to the messages that you might take in there? A Well, all those I had taken she had, you know, responded just as the other teachers did except for one. MR. GUARISCO: Would you speak a little louder. y Repeat that, please. A All those that I had taken, memos from the office, she had responded just as any other teacher would. Q Did you say except for one? A Well, this was a letter. y What letter was that you are talking about? A On April the 24th I had typed up a letter from Mr. Tooko to Mrs. White and I took it to her classroom and she refused to tale it, so I took it back to the office and 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I told Mr. Tookes about it and he said that we would just mail it to her. y And that was on April 24th? A Yes. MR. McCLURE: Mr. Chairman, do you have the lette that she is referring to? MR. GUARISCO: I think the Court Reporter has all of the documents. Did you bring them with you? REPORTER: I apologize, but I did not bring them. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I know, for the purposes of the record, that the Court Reporter has that letter and that if we have a copy that I would certainly stipulate to using the copy. 0 You say Mrs. White refused to take the letter, is that right? A Yes, sir, she did. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. McClure, here is that copy of the letter that you can use. MR. McCLURE: All right, thank you. (4 I would like to have you examine that and ask you, is this the letter you typed for Mr. Tookes? A Yes, it is. Q Is that his signature on there? A Yes, sir, it is. Q And is there a letterhead on here? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A You mean under — y Up here. A Yes. W And that's Pineview Elementary School? A That's right. Q And this was an official communication from Mr. Tookes to Mrs. White? A That's right. W On the occasions that you have had of going in Mrs. White's room, what occasion have you had, if any — excuse me, let me ask you this. Do you recall a meetin that was held in Mr. Tookes' office during the spring of 1968-69 school year when Mrs. White was there? A Yes. Q Who else was present? A Let me see, in the spring. I believe nobody but Mr. Tookes and Mrs. White in the springtime of the year. 0 All right, I would like to direct your attention to on or about November 12, 1968, which would be in the 6 8 -6 9 class year. A Yes, sir. Q Do you recall a meeting whereby Mr. Tookes and Mrs. White and Mrs. Hollis and Mrs. Manning were present? A Yes I do. Q Were you in the room at the time? 5 80 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A W Q A Q W A Q A No, I wasn't. What noises, or what did you observe coming out of the office, or subsequent to the meeting breaking up? Well, I was in the outer office and after the meeting, about two or three minutes after, I heard these noises coming from the lounge so I opened the door to see what it was. I couldn't see who it was but later on somebody told me that it was Mrs. White hollering and screaming, you know. Were they loud screams or what? Yes, they were because they scared me. Would you point to the board where you were when you started hearing these loud noises, and where Mrs. White was, and this is a diagram over here and I would like for you to come over here and point that out here on the board. (Witness at blackboard) Well, this is the office and this is the outer office here. Mr. Tookes' office is right here, so what I could see she came from the side door to the lounge, right around here, and this is where I heard the noises. And you were in the office at the time? Yes, sir I was. Was the door closed? Yes sir, it was.25 MR. McCLURE: No further questions. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MARSHALL: y Miss Jefferson, you weren’t present inside that room on November 12 where the meeting took place between Mrs. Hollis, Mrs. Manning, Mrs. White and Mr. Tookes, were you? A No, I wasn’t. y So you don’t know whether or not anything was said by anybody that would certainly cause that kind of emotional response? A No, I don’t. y And I suppose that you have had emotional responses like that in your lifetime, is that correct? A Would you repeat that statement again, please? y I’ll strike it. Now,you say as a part of your — you are the secretary and bookkeeper? A Yes, sir. y Do you also keep the records out at the school? A Yes I do. Q Are you the custodian of the records at the school? A Well, Mr. Tookes would be. I'm sorry, I think I might have misread your question, y If I would want a record from the school, would I go to you and ask you first and you would clear it with Mr. Tookes and you would give it to me? Yes, sir. So you are the official custodian of the records? Well, yes, I would think so. And you are the one that would tell me what records are kept in the day to day course of administration at Pineview Elementary School, is that right? (Witness nodded affirmatively) Now, did you say that as a part of your job you would deliver memoranda or notes or messages to Mrs. White? Yes. Do I understand you correctly to say that on each occasion she would read this memoranda as any other teacher would and sign it? Yes, those that I*ve taken down there, yes. So how many times would you say you have gone in and out of Mrs. White's room delivering messages over a two-year period? That's sort of hard to say» On these occasions did you observe the general conditioi of Mrs. White*s room while you were in there? MR. McClure: Mr. Chairman, I would like to object to that. MR. GUARISCO: I will sustain the objection. There was nothing in direct brought out about the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 appearance or the room of the person herself, so let’s stay within the bounds of direct examination. Q But do you dress normally for school the way you are dressed today, about the same? A Well, yes, sometimes. MR. McCLURE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter an objection to that, too, since that wasn’t brought out on direct. MR. GUARISCO: I will sustain that objection. Mr. Marshall, if we will stay within the bounds of the testimony brought out on direct we will move this hearing to a conclusion. Let’s stay within the limits. MR. MARSHALL: In respect to the wishes of the Chairman, I have no further questions of this witness. MR. GUARISCO: You have no further questions. You don’t feel you’ve been cut off, do you. MR. MARSHALL: No. MR. GUARISCO: Do you have any further questions, Mr. McClure? REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McCLURE: W Miss Jefferson, you testified that you were the custodian of the files. This is under Mr. Tookes* direction, is that right? A Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q If someone came in there looking for a file on a teacher would you have to check with Mr. Tookes before you allowed that? A Yes. 0 So then he is really the person who has the responsi bility as the official custodian of the files? A Yes. MR. McCLURE: No further questions. MR. GUARISCO: Any further questions of the Board or of counsel? (No response) MR. McCLURE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to possibly keep this witness as a rebuttal witness. MR. GUARISCO: All right, you will have to go back to the witness room to be used possibly as a rebuttal witness later. I'm sorry that you will have to stay a little longer. MR. McCLURE: Mr. Chairman, we have no further witnesses at this point but we would like to reserve Mr. Tookes as perhaps another rebuttal witness. MR. GUARISCO: Well, you can do that and let's take a five-minute break so you can get a chance to get your witnesses together. (BRIEF RECESS WAS TAKEN) MR. GUARISCO: All right, let's proceed. MR. MARSHALL: I would like to make a short open 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 statement, if I might, Mr. Chairman. MR. GUARISCO: Go right ahead. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, members of the Board, and others. Let me first concur with Mr. McClure that this is an unpleasant task and is certainly an unpleasant situation, not only for Mrs. White but I’m sure for Mr. Tookes, as well as myself. I know both Mr. Tookes and I know Mrs. White and I respect them and I admire both persons. Despite the fact that it is an unpleasant task, it is something that must be decided by the Board and certainly our case will be brief, our presentation will be brief. We will show that Mrs. White is a teacher, having graduated from Florida A. & M. University in 1929; that she has continuously since that time been employed by the Leon County School Boarc that she has from time to time returned to school and furthered her education; that she is a good instructor; that there is no basis for the charge of being an untie; or an unclean person because, in fact, she is and we have witnesses to that effect. Certainly there has beo: no questions raised as to the competency of Mrs. White and I shall also show that there has been no insubord ination; that she has responded to all of the wishes of Mr. Tookes, the principal, including the reading of the memoranda and the reading of all notes and message 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sent to her to be read by anyone, secretary or teacher’s; aides, and that certainly we hope to show that Mrs. Whit ought to be retained for the coming school year as a teacher at Pineview Elementary School in the Leon County School Board system. MR. GUARISCO: All right, sir, you may call your witness. FLOSSIE MeCLARY was called as a witness for respondent and having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MARSHALL: Q For the record state your name please. A My name is Flossie Thompson McClary. Q What is your occupation, Mrs. McClary? A I am a teacher in school here in Leon County, School "C 1 Q How long have you been teaching in the Leon County School system? A Thirty-six years. Q Mrs. McClary, have you ever had an occasion to work as a teacher with Mrs. Alberta White? A I have worked in the schools with Mrs. Alberta White for nineteen years. Q And have you ever had occasion to work at the Pineview Elementary School? I worked at Pineview Elementary School with Mrs. Alberta White for twelve years. Twelve years. Yes. Now, Mrs. McClary, tell me during this twelve-year period that you worked at Pineview Elementary School with Mrs. White, did you have occasions to observe the dress, the way she was dressed, the dress of Mrs. White? Yes. Can you tell us, please, how you would characterize that dress? Well, in Leon County we have no policy of how you dress , I see. Each person in the school system is able to dress according to their, I guess, financial obligations. And how would you characterize the dress of Mrs. White, how was she dressed? Well, I would say she came to school looking like the average teacher would dress. She was clean and wore suitable clothes, I guess, according to her finances. When is the last year that you worked with Mrs. White in the Pineview Elementary School? I worked with her through the year of 196&-69, or I guess you would say the term of 68-69. So you have just now transferred to School "C", is that right? Yes. So that during this twelve-year period her dress was not untidy in your opinion, is that right? I think she looked all right. How about her personal hygiene, did you have occasion to observe this over this twelve-year period and, if so, how would you characterize it? You mean the cleanliness of her room? No, her personal hygiene. I thought she was all right. And you would see her from time to time during this twelve-year span? Yes, lunch hours and sometimes committee meetings and at faculty meetings. Now, during the twelve-year period did you have occasion to pass the room of Mrs. White where she taught? During that twelve-year period she taught my daughter. She taught your daughter? Yes. Okay, would you pass her room sometime from time to time? Yes. During this twelve-year period would you go inside the room from time to time? Oh, yes, when my daughter was in there. Now, when you would pass the room and when you would go inside the room have you ever observed Mrs. White asleep? I haven’t ever seen her asleep in school. During this twelve-year period did you also attend faculty meetings at Pineview Elementary School? Yes I did. And during this period did you ever see Mrs. White alseop during a faculty meeting at Pineview Elementary School? I didn’t notice her as being asleep. I was busy looking probably at the person who was talking. MR. MARSHALL: No further questions. CROSS EXAMINATION . McCLURE: Mrs. McClary, where is your room? This is a diagram that has been introduced into evidence of Pineview Elementary School. This has been introduced into evidence. I would like for you to point out for the Board where your room is. (Witness to blackboard) Here is the office and here is the cafeteria and the library and I would like to know from you where is your room and where is Mrs. White’s room. 39 (Witness pointed to spaces on diagram) I would like to have it go into the record that Mrs. McClary has pointed out her room as being in a different portion of the building, is that correct? Yes, it is. MR. GUARISCO: That building is divided into two wings, is that right? MR. McCLURE: Yes, sir, this is an open area in here, I believe. MR. GUARISCO: So you were in one wing and Mrs. White was in another wing? WITNESS: That’s right. And say this is north, where would your room be insofar as north, south, east and west? Would your room be on the north side of the north room, is that right? Yes. And Mrs. White’s room would be in the southeast corner, about, of the school and away from your room? Yes, she was away from my room. Then you would be in class during the same time Mrs. White would be in class? Yes, I would be teaching at the same time she was teaching I imagine, and I was in the primary department and Mrs. White was in the intermediate department. Then you have not been able to observe her during her 90 91 classroom because you were in class, also? As a teacher I have not been able to observe the learning experiences that were set up in Mrs* White's classroom. Then you would not know whether or not Mrs. White had any lesson plans in her classroom? As a teacher I could not say whether she had lesson plans or not. And you would not know whether she had her class divide i up into reading levels or not? No, sir, I couldn't tell you that. And you would not be able to say for sure if Mrs. White had ever slept in class, would you? I have never seen her. You have never seen her but you don't see her during classroom hours on a particular day, do you? No, I'm up in the north end. Then it's possible for her to have slept in her class room and for you to have not seen it? Well, I haven't seen her. But that is possible? It's possible. And you have never seen or been present in Mrs. White'o room when messages from the principal were delivered to you, is that correct? No, I haven't. Then it’s possible that those messages delivered to her by one of the secretaries in the school, she would not have read those messages and you wouldn't know whether 92 she had or not, would you? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I would object to that as calling for speculation on the part of the witness. She can't speculate as to what happened if she was not there. MR. GUARISCO: Did you want to make a response to this? MR. McCLURE: Yes, sir, I believe that this is within the miles of cross examination to show that she has not observed Mrs. White on a daily basis and that it would be possible that, if other people testified, she was asleep, that it would be possible that she was, in fact, asleep and Mrs. McClary would not have known it. MR. GUARISCO: This objection was directed to the messages, was it not? MR. MARSHALL: Well, at the messages and asking what Mrs. White would do with the message when the witness was not present. MR. GUARISCO: I am going to sustain your objection as to that particular phase of it relating to messages, memorandums and so forth. Anything else that she could have general knowledge of by observing it, that's going to another proposition altogether. You have never seen any messages delivered into Mrs White's classroom, have you? No, I haven't. 93 And you would not know what went on when those messages were delivered? No, I couldn't say. And your room being on the opposite end of the school you wouldn't know whether her classroom was noisy or not during the school year of 67-68 and 68-69; in other words, you've never — Well, I had a chance to go out on the physical ed field at times and we were near her room and I didn't hear any excess noise from her room, no more than any other class on that south wing. While you were out on the physical ed field and the children out there would be playing and making noise, tc|o? Yes, they would, but we were near that area. But it would be noisy enough out on the school ground to where you probably couldn't hear anything, couH you? Oh, well, we had to come into the building, too, but we didn't hear any more noise from her room than from the rest of the classrooms, in passing. And on her dress, her personal attire, and I know that this is a very personal thing to ask and I don't like to 19 94 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ask it, but you said that her personal dress and every thing was just generally okay, is that right? A Well, I thought it was. Everybody doesn’t dress alike noway. Q Have you ever seen her come to school with a dress that she may have worn several days in a row? A I didn't notice. Q Have you every seen her come to school where her dress may have been soiled when she got to school, not after she got to school but when she got there? A I haven't seen her in the morning with a soiled dress on. Q But you wouldn't have noticed that on a regular day to day basis? A No, as I say I didn't see her every day. I was in my classroom. MR.McCLURE: I have no further questions. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MARSHALL: Q Mrs. McClary, you were testifying as to a twelve-year span, is that right? A Yes. Q And this diagram that was produced was just for last year's classroom position, is that right? A Yes, I have worked in her wing along with her during 25 that whole twelve years. My room has been about the second room from her in previous years Previous years? 95 Yes. So then you were right there with her in previous years? Yes. MR. MARSHALL: I have no further questions. MR. McCLURE: No further questions. MR. GUARISCO: Any questions from the Board? (No response) Is there any objection to this witness being excused? MR. McCLURE: No objection. MR. GUARISCO: All right, Mrs. McClary, you may either stay in the room the rest of this hearing or go about your business if you need to leave. (Discussion off the record) MR. GUARISCO: Let the record show that both attorney for the county and for the respondent stipulate that a diagram of the classroom layout and general layout of the Pineview School building is submitted into evidence and there is no objection from the respondent. MR. MENENDEZ: This is a layout for what year? MR. GUARISCO: This is the 68-69 school year and it is not drawn to scale but it is a representative of the location of the rooms and it is admitted into evidehce as County Exhibit No* 14 • MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, at this time I don’t intend to recall Mrs. Hollis and if it’s all right with Mr. McClure we will have her excused. MR. McCLURE: That will be fine, no objection. BERNICE H. CLAUSELL was called as a witness for respondent and having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MARSHALL: y For the record state your name, please. A My name is Bernice H. Clausell. Q Can you spell Clausell for us? A Oh, yes. Q Will you spell Clausell for us? A C-I—A-U-S-E-L-L. Q And what is your address, Mrs. Clausell? A 102S Joe Louis Street, Tallahassee, Florida. Q And what is your occupation, please? A I am a teacher. Q Here in Leon County? A In Leon County. y What school do you teach in, please? A Right now I’m at middle school "F11. How long have you been a teacher in Tallahassee? Thirteen years. During this thirteen-year period have you had occasion to teach with Mrs. Alberta White in the school system of Leon County? Yes. What years did you teach with her, please? The 1967-68 and 68-69 years. And where was this, please? Pineview. Pineview? That’s right. Now, where had you taught prior to coming to Pineview? Griffin Junior High School. Griffin? Yes. During this two-year period, Mrs. Clausell, two school year periods, did you have occasion to observe Mrs. White with her students in the Pineview Elementary School Yes. Can you tell us what, if anything, you observed during the 67-68 school year while you taught at Pineview? MR. GUARISCO: That’s rather broad, counsel. If you would narrow it down to more specific categories as to what you want here. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Tell me, Mrs. Clausell, in the Pineview Elementary School. do the teachers, or did you, display commercial art work? A Yes, I do. y You do? A Yes, I have quite a bit of it. y You do have quite a bit of it? A Yes. Q Have you observed other classrooms at the Pineview Elementary School? A Yes. y And was there any commercial art in the other classrooms at Pineview Elementary School? A Some• y There was some? A Yes. y In most of them there was some, is that right? A Well, I would say many of them. y Did you ever have occasion to observe the room, the classroom or school room, of Mrs. White during this time? A Yes, I have been in her room. y And have you observed commercial art in her room? A Some• Q Did you observe any work of students in her room? A Some, yes. y Where would it be? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A You mean in the room? W Yes. A On the boards. Q Did you observe or can you recall any particular work by students of Mrs. White? A Well, I can remember a mural that her students made last year. It was in relation to a chapel program and it seemed to have been an outgrowth of some lesson that they had been having. This was on the floor, it wasn^ on the board. It was all the way across the floor and it seemed that each child had been working on this mural and they had made trees and automobiles and various things. Q Did you see the students go about this work? A Yes. W How did they appear to you as students? A As students? Q Yes. A You mean were they happy or what? Q Yes. A Oh, yes, they were happy. Q Now, during this two-year period, did you from time to time — you would see Mrs. White from time to time, is that not correct? A Oh, yes, I would see her almost every day. Can you tell the Board, characterize for us, please, the dress of Mrs. White and how she would be dressed during this two-year period? Well, I think Mrs. White would be dressed according to Mrs. White1s personality, I would say. Each person dresses according to the way they feel they will look well. Would you say that she was untidy or unclean? No, I wouldn*t say that she was untidy nor unclean but she wore a different kind of dress than I would wear because those were the kind of dresses she liked. Kind of like this morning, right? That*s right, evidently. On these occasions when you were in Mrs. White*s room did you observe anything about the appearance of the room, the classroom? You mean the neatness of it? Yes. Well, to me it looked like just a regular elementary room, a room full of children. You know, you can*t always have it spic and span when the children are really working. Her room looked about like the rest of the rooms when the children are working. Now, there arn sometimes when the rooms can be cleaner than other times All rooms? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A All I have ever observed. Q Mrs. Clausell, in your professional opinion is there any particular contribution that you think Mrs. White makes to students at the Pineview Elementary School? A Yes, Mrs. White's relation to the children, and this is my personal reaction to Mrs. White, I felt that she was quite motherly, you know, and it seems to me that the children need that kind of a relationship in elementary school. Q Why is that? A Why do the children need a motherly relationship? Q Yes. A Because it's natural for a child to relate to a mother and I have seen many times Mrs. White would have the child out in the hallway trying to counsel with the child. Maybe the child, you know, had hit another one and I would pass by there and I would ask her what was the matter and she would say "well, this fellow just won't live right with the others and I'm trying to help him." So I felt that she was trying her best to get the children to live together peacefully as they should in whatever way she felt she could do that. W Now, along those lines is there any particular incident that you can recall, other than the ones you just men tioned, about Mrs. White that sticks out in your mind? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Well, sometimes in passing out in the hallway I would see the children up there at her desk, talking to her and I have seen her at the board working with the childr There was one occasion, and this doesn*t have to do with teaching, but one occasion that was very outstanding in my mind about Mrs. White's attitudes towards school. MR. McCLURE: Mr. Chairman, I believe that she is about to testify to something that is outside of her teaching duties and I would like to object to that if that is the result of that answer there. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, respectfully, it has been brought out that 7 : 3 0 is outside of the teaching realm of Mrs. White and all other instructural personnel at the school, and certainly that was brought out in the testimony by Mr. Tookes, as to what occurred at 7:30 in the morning and I think that this is along the same line MR. McCLURE: Well, if this testimony is from 7:3C on to 3:15, I have no objection. MR. GUARISCO: Are you going to stay within the school time, during the time that school is in session? MR. MARSHALL: Yes sir. MR. McCLURE: Then I will withdraw my objection. MR. GUARISCO: All right, go ahead. You can proceed. Well, this was at school. It is just to show the kind <b 28 103 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 person she is, that's what I was trying to bring out. Two of the children had been fighting and both of them were in my room and I had not arrived at school yet. Q What time was this? A It was about a quarter to eight, I would say, or ten of eight or something like this. This girl student had cut a boy student and the blood was in the hallway, all the way down the hallway, and when I arrived I saw Mrs. White out there with a mop and I spoke to her and said, "Mrs. White, what in the world are you doing with a mop, and she said that she was mopping. I said, "Why are you mopping?" she said, "Well, Ifve got to mop this blood up because one of your girls has harmed one of the boys." I said, "Well, it's very nice of you to get it up," and she said, "Somebody's got to get it up because if Mr. Tookes would see this he would have a fit." So I said, "Well, that's real nice of you to get this up," and she went on mopping. She didn't pay me any mind but just went right on mopping with a couple of students out theije to help her. MR. MARSHALL: I have no further questions. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. McCLURE: y Mrs. Clausell, you mentioned the chapel program. A Yes. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 y Would that be the Memorial Day Program this past year? A I think it was; I believe it was, yes. Q Did you say or did you testify, and I’m not too sure of this, that Mrs. White was dressed up real nice for that? A I didn’t say anything about Mrs. White’s dress at the chapel program but I can say something about it. Q What was your testimony on the chapel program? A I just said that the children had made a mural. Q What was the mural about? A I think it had a cemetery and crosses and cars and trees and that’s about all I can remember of the mural. Q The mural was depicting a scene of a cemetery? A It was something seemingly to memorialize the soldiers, it seemed to me, kind of a patriotic thing. Q It had the scene of graves and crosses? A I don’t know, now. Don’t ask me all of that because I couldn’t remember that. All I can remember is that the children worked on it, you know. y They worked on the mural painting crosses and graves anc things like that? A And trees and automobiles and different kinds of cars, y Were you ever present at any time at any meetings that Mr. Tookes had with Mrs. White? A No, I can’t remember any. y Did you ever go into Mrs. White’s room to examine any oi 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 teaching materials or lesson plans? A Well, not examine* I wouldn't say to examine, no. Q Have you ever seen any lesson plans? A I have seen some material but I wouldn't say they were lesson plans. Q Then you have never seen any lesson plans in Mrs. White’s room? A No. MR. MARSHALL: I'm going to object to this because it is not in cross to anything brought out on direct. MR. GUARISCO: I will sustain the objection. MR.McCLURE: Mr. Chairman, she has testified that she went in there and observed Mrs. White's room and observed this, that and the other, and I'm just trying to find out specifically what she saw. MR. GUARISCO: She stated that she never saw these work plans and I think that is responsive to your quest:.' Q In your entry into Mrs. White's room did you ever observ the children in any groupings or anything? A Yes. MR. MARSHALL: I would like to have a continuous objection to any groupings, specifically this as was brought out with Mrs. Hollis when she said she was just across the hall and he attempted to ask what she observ ed and so on 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR, GUARISCO: I sustain the objection. We could put you both under oath here and let you testify, but we won’t do that. MR. McCLURE: Yes, I believe Mr. Marshall is testifying now. No further questions. MR. MARSHALL: I have no further questions. MR. GUARISCO: Do any of the Board members have any questions? (No response) Do you want this witness dismissed, any objection? MR. McCLURE: No objection. MR. GUARISCO: All right, you can stay in the room or you can go about your chores of the day. 107 1 ALBERTA WHITE 2 appeared as a witness in her own behalf and having been 3 duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. MARSHALL: 6 Q For the record state your name, please. 7 A My name is Alberta Taylor White. 8 Q And what is your address, please? 9 A 1122 West Orange Avenue. 10 Q Is that here in Tallahassee? 11 A It is. 12 Q What is your occupation? 13 A My occupation is a teacher. 14 Q And where do you teach? 15 A Well, last year I taught at Pineview Elementary School. 16 Q And how many years have you been a teacher? 17 A Forty. 18 Q Where did you teach the year before — how long did you 19 teach at Pineview Elementary School? 20 A Twelve years. 21 Q Twelve years? 22 A That's right. 23 Q And where did you teach before Pineview Elementary School? 24 A Before Pineview I was at Bond Elementary. 25 Q How long did you teach there? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Ten. Q Now, Mrs. White, where did you go to school? A I went to school at Florida A & M from the third grade through college. Before that, from the first, second and third grades I went to a church school by the name of St. Michael All Angels Episcopal School, which my people paid for my education from start to finish. Q Now, Mrs. White, what year did you graduate from Florida A & M University? A I finished high school in 1928. Q And when did you finish college? A I finished college in 1945. Q Since 1945 have you had occasion to go back to school? A I go back to school practically every year. Q Did you go last summer? A Yes, I went to a workshop last summer at Fort Walton Beacfi at Chocktahatehee High School there for studies in Specia Ed because I had been informed by my principal that I would be one of the Special Ed teachers for the year. So when this Special Ed conference came about he called me to come to the school one day during the summer and he made the contact for me and gave me the time and I received the papers and I proceeded and went on to Fort Walton and stayed the week of the conference. Q Now, what summer was that, Mrs. White? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A That was last summer. Q This summer that we're in now, have you gone to school this summer? A Yes, I took Triple A Science this summer. Q Where did you go to take that? A I went to W. T. Moore Elementary School. Q And do you recall what grade you received? A I received the grade of "A". Q Now, Mrs. White, can you tell us what grade you taught at Pineview for 1967-68? A In 1967-1968 I had the fifth grade. Q And for 1968-69? A In '68-'69 I was supposed to have been Special Ed but I ended up with the fourth grade. Q Now, during the 1967-68 and 1968-69 school years, Mrs. White, to the best of your recollection did you -- let's talk about the displays in your classroom. What did you display, what kind of work? A Well, I displayed work in the four areas of the elemen tary school; language, art, social studies, mathematics and science, and a little art in between that. Q And what was — was any of this the work of the students? A Yes, it was the work of the students. Q Now, during the holiday seasons for 1968-69 or 1967-68 did you display the art work of your students during this time? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 IS 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A During the holidays we did have some work from the child ren and I also had some commercial material, too, and my main point in having that was where the children could work on art in the spare time, free time, and mine was put up there for a guide so they could look at the things and see how it was supposed to be shaped and what not. I did not allow them to take it down and trace it to make them another picture like mine. They had to sit at their desk and look at what was there and if they wanted to make a Santa Claus or wanted to make a candy cane or wanted to make a wreath of flowers then they could glance at that particular thing and get an idea as to how to put it together. That's what my commercial art purpose served, as well as beautifying the room. Q Now, Mrs. Wite, just as a part of preparatory work, being a teacher, what, if anything, do you do prior to beginnir school and during the school year as a part of preparing yourself? What do you do, if anything? A You mean like going to school? Q No, just as a part of preparing yourself for a school day A Oh, for preparing myself for a school day I would read professional books; I would look up certain topics and skills and 1 would develop them to the point and I would also find seat work that would help the children in a particular skill and I would write it out and after we 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 got the aides -- I would write out the things that I wanted and I would give it to the aides for them to type it out and I would make enough copies for all the childre: to have, the different copies of different things. I have a lot of the samples of them if you would like to seem them out there in my car now. Q What do you call these things you're referring to? A Reading lessons, skills of dividing words into syllables, making compound words, things like that; language, social studies, Florida, things about Florida and other parts of the state and what have you. Q Is this aammonly called a lesson plan? A These are the work sheets that you prepare after you make a lesson plan so that you have something to present to the children when you go into the classroom to talk or to teach them about these things. Q And you would do this on a daily basis? A Yes. Q Now, let me just jump one second and direct your attentio to the date of November 12, 1968. Did you attend a con ference or a meeting on that date? A Yes. Q Can you tell us who was present? A Mrs. Hollis, Mr. Tooks and Mrs. Ida Manning. Q As best you can recall, can you tell us and tell the Boarji what was said by Mr. Tooks to you on that date, Mrs. Whit Well, I think it was about 8:15 when we were seated in his office, so he began his conversation talking about some of the commercial things that I had and he thought I had too much of it and he didn't see where it was serving any good purpose and wasn't helping the children any. So when he finished his discussion I said to him, I told him that I was sorry and I said, "If you don't want it up there, Mr. Tooks, I can take it down and burn it up." Of course, I told him I'd bought it. So he further said then that I was taking the wrong attitude and he said, "You take your money and buy commercial material and then grumble about paying a dollar a month for coffee. You could have saved that and paid for the coffee." Of course, I guess over a period of forty years I would have this room full of junk. Mrs. White, are you — I didn't finish. So after he got through saying that he pointed me up to Mrs. Hollis and Mrs. Manning and saic "They can help you to fix your room better than it is," and then he wheeled around on his chair in the office and he said, "I'm just not going to have it, Mrs. White." He said, "What I'm going to say to you now, I don't give a damn who it hurts, and it's you, Mrs. White," and then he reemphasized his materials and that was the point that kind of upset me a little bit while being in the office because he was the principal of the school and if he didn't give a damn, who should? Okay, now Mrs. White, during the twelve-year priod that you taught at Pineview Elementary School have you ever gone to sleep or been asleep in your class? No, not that I know of. Nobody has ever awakened me and told me that I was asleep. And at faculty meetings have you ever been asleep? No, I have never been asleep at faculty meetings. Faculty meetings usually are in the afternoon and after a day's work a lot of times you will put your head in your hand, but because my head was in my hand or my elbow was propped up on a table and I was looking like that, I wasn't asleep because I heard what was going on in faculty meet ings and I don't think people asleep can hear what's going on. Now, can you characterize for us, just limiting it to the 1967-68 school year, during that time tell us something about the general appearance of your classroom itself. Well, to me, it satisfied me and it's like everything else in ray estimation. The clothes that I wear satisfy me because I am the one to produce the money to get them. I am the sole bread earner in my home. I don't have a husband or anybody else or any other source to live upon. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 My money has to stretch out over everything in the home and then I have a blind sister that I have to look out for. So I do have to budget closely, but the clothes that I buy and the clothes that I wear are appropriate and simple enough to wear anywhere and I do know how to wash and iron and I do keep them clean. Some materials may look dirty to you but they are still clean. I send my clothes to the cleaners every month and I pay about $12.00 a month to the cleaners and I don't see how I could get nasty in 20 days spending that much money for cleaning. Q Now, about the classroom itself? A Well, the classroom -- if you're doing anything in your room like paper cutting and what have you, such as paint ing or drawing, there's going to be some paper on the floor. Every time a child cuts something he's not going to get down there and pick it up and neither am I going to do it. If I'm cutting out letters all the trash is going to fall on the floor, but at the end of the day we usually have the children -- I usually have my child ren tidy ip the room because they're leaving out. I don't expect them to be janitors and I'm not one, either. Ther are janitors hired there to do the work, so I don't see where I should take the children and make them be janitor when I could be teaching them a lesson. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q But you do have them — A I do have them tidy up a little bit but I don't have them do janitorial work because their parents didn't send them to school to be janitors. They send them to school to learn. Q Now, during the '67-'68 and '68-'69 school year did you receive memorandas or notes or messages or notices to be read from Mr. Tooks? A Yes, I did. Q What did you do with these? A I would read them and sign them because I think a person would be very stupid to sign their name to something that they don't know what it's all about. I can read real fas : and I don't have to have a half a day to read a notice. Q Now, Mrs. White, during this two-year period pan from '67 to *69, did you ever allow your students to just run rampant up and down the hall or throughout your classroom' A No, I didn't allow them to rim wild, so to speak, but there were occasions when my children, and all other children in the school, had to participate in other prog rams. They had to go to PE, music and student council and I always told mine when we got an hour -- say student council was going to meet at 2:30, I told them don't dist urb the class, for them to go. I told them they were the council member, for them to look at the clock and when it 116 was 2:30 for them to just get up and go and not disturb the class. The same with music, when it was time for the to go to music, then just go on out of the room and go and PE was the same way. At the end of the year we have to do that because the PE person does not have the class room and the music person has a group of children assigned to them, so they make a program by having all the children that are assigned to them from all the rooms in the build ing. They will take two or three out of my room and some out of another, and like that. Naturally, that's a part of the school and I couldn't object to those children about going. Sometimes they were called out for patrol meetings and things of this nature and the children would have to go out. Now, Mrs. White, as a part of your lesson plan or your classroom materials that you have testified to in the past, did you ever include any records that you would consider distasteful to the school or to an educational system? No, I didn't. I have a set of long playing records that's put out by the Reader's Digest and I use a lot of Reader's Digest material for the children that I buy myself, the little Reader's Digest,and they have nice little stories and things that you can use for the children and they put these records out for an educational purpose and the ten long playing records that I have came from an educational 117 firm. It wasn't just something that I picked up on the newsstand. It was shipped to me; it was ordered just likje you would order any other piece of educational material. I have a film strip projector that I bought myself. I don't have to use the school's film strip projector be cause I have my own but I do use the film sometimes becatis I don't have enough of the different kinds of film. When I go to the library I don't use nothing hit the film because I have my own projector to show the film on. Now, what time, Mrs. White, do you normally arrive at the Pineview Elementary School? Well, I've got a habit for this reason of going to school around 7:30. When Pineview Elementary was started in 1957 that was the opening date for Pineview School and we didn't, the Board didn't or somebody did not give us a lunchroom manager so I was the lunchroom manager and a classroom teacher. So I had to go to 7:30 to meet the people to receive the groceries, to meet the cooks, and get things lined up so that the children and all the rest of us could have something to eat, as well as teach a fourth grade class and that's why I got accustomed to going to school at 7:30 and staying until 5:00 and I did that up until the School Board hired a man^r for Pinevie|w Elementary School, which was three years later. Mrs. White, during this time that you have been coming to 118 school at 7:30, let me direct your attention to the school year '67-'68. Was there ever an occasion when you heard music being played in your classroom -- rather, when you heard music being played in a classroom other than your own? Yes. Would you tell us about that, please? Every one of us had a record player. We had keys and we locked our rooms in the afternoon, but the rooms were opened in the morning by the janitor and the children would go to the rooms and play records, all the rooms. This particular morning that Mr. Tooks mentioned that he called me on the intercom, well, when I walked in the room they had these records and they were already play ing the record player and already dancing when I walked in. So, naturally, he was there and he didn't stop them. I couldn't tell them because I wasn't there to tell them not to play the records. There were not just records going on in my room, they were going on in other places and they were dancing. He called to my room specially and told me he was enjoying the music, so I said, "Oh, you are?" Certainly he was there ahead of me and if there was something going on wrong he should have stoppec it before I got there. I wasn't supposed to be at school until 8:00, anyway. I didn't have to be there at 7:30. And that's why you misunderstood him, because you thought he really was enjoying the music? Anybody else would have. Now, tell us what you did, if anything, with the record player after this incident. After the incident I just locked the record player up in the cabinet and let it stay there. I didn't use it any more for anything. Did you hear any music, then, after this early in the mornings? Yes, you would hear the radios and the TV's. Some of them had TV's in their rooms and the TV's would be play ing. I didn't have a TV in my room, I only had a record player. Can you tell us, as a part of your general planning and in the school year, do you als o plan field trips and parent visits for your children? Yes, I plan field trips and plan visits for the children. I took my fifth grade class to Rose Printing, to the Weather Bureau, to Seminole Flying Field, and to the washateria and I think that's enough field trips for any child in one year. How about your fourth grade, did you take them? In the fourth grade I took the children to the Capitol and we took walking tours on the campus and I had anothei trip scheduled for them but we had a conflict with the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 buses and the buses had to be used for another purpose and we never did work around to the other trips, but we went out on the school ground and looked at where they was working on building a new road and looked at the machinery and things like that. We went on a butterfly hunt, or whatever you want to call it, insect selection just around the school area, walking, and we also picked up some leaves and things like that for observation, you know, and moss and what not. Q Now, at the end of the '67-'68 school year, Mrs. White, did you receive — in fact, have you ever received any letter stating you would be on a trial basis for a year? A No, I have not. I was called to the office by Mr. Tooks and told that he was moving me from the fifth grade into Special Ed and for me to prepare myself for Special Ed and that's what I proceeded to do. Q Have you ever been told by Mr. Tooks that you were on a trial basis? A No, I have not been told that. MR. MARSHALL: May I just have one moment, please? (Pause) No further questions. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. Me CLURE: Q Mis. White, you realize that the evidence, if believed by the Board, would cost you your job? L21 Sure, I know that. The evidence, or whatever you call it, I have another name for it. The testimony. I just hope the Board knows the truth. It's not — MR. GUARISCO: Mrs. White, you answer his questions, be responsive to his questions, otherwise we will be here all day. Answer his questions to the best of your ability and let the record reflect that then, if we need to get clarification we will ask you additional questions. WITNESS: Thank you. All right, these displays that you said you had the child ren participate in, what percentage of these displays werE commercial and what percentage were the children's? Well, the larger percent was the children. I would have one or two pieces on what was considered my bulletin boar|d. Okay, you said that you didn't believe the children and yourself should be janitors in the class. Do you feel the teacher has a responsibility to keep her class look ing nice during the school day? Sure, but if you have an activity going on and somebody walks in your room and criticizes the activity because something's on the floor, that doesn't make sense because you're working. Didn't you testify to the fact that you leave the trash on the floor and at the end of the day you clean it up? No, I did not. I said at the end of the day we would tidy up the room. You didn't say that you left all the cuttings — I didn't leave everything there, no, because we had to eat in our rooms, you know. That's where we had our lunches was in the classroom and from the morning period to near lunchtime we would tidy up the room so we could eat in there. Do you think that leaving trash and paper on the floor during the day is a distraction to the students? I think if they put it down there from an activity it would not be a distraction. You don't think that if they were cutting up paper and they finished that activity and left the paper on the floor that would not be a distraction? They wouldn't leave it there after they finished the activity. It wouldn't be left there, no, they would clean it up behind the activity. I thought you were saying that it wasn't picked up. We picked it up behind the activity. You're not going to just cut out one "A" or one "G" or something and then reach down and pick the paper up right then and there. So if other people have come by and said they have seen trash on the floor over a continued period of time, you are saying that they wouldn't know whether it was just 122 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 right after an activity or not? A No, they wouldn't because they weren't in my room. I wouldn't know what's going on in theirs and I don't go around criticizing anybody's room; no teacher's room do I criticize. I don't know what her schedule is when I pass by there and if I see something on the floor, it's just on the floor; that'sher business. Q All right, what about the letter of April 24th that we're talking about? You heard Miss Jefferson testify that you refused that letter? A That's right. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I don't recall anything being brought out on direct about a letter of April 24th. MR. McCLURE: Well, one of the messages that I believe Mr. Marshall directed some — MR. GUARISCO: I believe there was a question asked about whether she had received any notice about being on trial or being changed from one class to another. Did you have reference to a letter at that point? MR. MARSHALL: No. MR. GUARISCO: You did ask some questions with regar to any communications from Mr. Tooks. MR. MARSHALL: About being transferred. MR. GUARISCO: About a trial situation and her work ing position. You asked if she had had any communication from him in that respect. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. MARSHALL: That was for the school year 1967-68, being on a trial basis that year, not for 1969-70. MR. GUARISCO: You're referring to 1967-68? MR. McCLURE: I was referring to April 24, 1969. This is what I was referring to. MR. MARSHALL: I mentioned nothing about that. MR. GUARISCO: I'll sustain the objection. Q I believe you testified, Mrs. White, that you had support ing materials that you followed the class day with, the different supporting materials or things that you brought to teach the children from? A That's right. Q Did you have a lesson plan to show what materials were there? A Yes, I had them and I can get the things out of the car now for both years. Q Where did you keep the lesson plans, in your car or there at the school? A In my desk, on my desk at school. Q Then if somebody else said that they came in and looked for lesson plans while you were not there teaching — MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I would like to object to that. If somebody else said it, obviously one would be true and the other — MR. GUARISCO: Well, he's making a point here and 125 asking a question and I don’t believe he finished his question before there was an objection. Let's let him complete the question and see if he can tie it into any thing. I will overrule the objection at this point and you may continue with your question. So then if someone did come in and say that they didn't find any lesson plans, that would be in direct conflict with what you say? Well, you know it would have to be in direct because I have lesson plans; whether they saw them or not I do have lesson plans. not Then it would/be possible for someone to come into your classroom and not find lesson plans there? No. I believe you testified that you never realized that you had ever been asleep in class? No. But it's possible not to realize that you were asleep but that you could have been asleep, is that right? No, I will object to saying that I could have been. Point blank, no, I have never been asleep. Are you saying that you have never been asleep? And if there was testimony to the contrary then that would not be accurate, is that right? 126 1 A That's right. 2 A Q Then if we had the three other people here who did testify 3 that you had been asleep in class they wouldn't be tell- 4 ing the truth? 5 A No, they wouldn't. 6 A MR. MARSHALL: I object to that line of questioning. 7 MR. GUARISCO: Well, I think that she's a hostile 8 witness and this is cross examination. He can lead and 9 he can ask certain questions on the basis that he wants 10 to determine her veracity. I think it's in order. 11 MR. MARSHALL: I think he's calling for her to give 12 opinions as to what other people say and as to whether or 13 not that is the truth or — 14 MR. GUARISCO: Well, it's not so much an opinion. 15 She was sitting here and she heard what the testimony was 16 on previous witnesses and it's just a matter of whether 17 H she agrees or disagrees with them. Go ahead. 18 MR. McCLURE: She's the respondent here. 19 MR. GUARISCO: That's right, and I'll overrule the 20 objection. 21 Q Then if Mrs. Hammond said that she came in there and saw 22 you asleep in class, she wouldn't be telling the truth, 23 is that right? 24 A No, she did not tell the truth. I wouldn't say she would 25 not be telling the truth, I will say she did not tell the truth. 127 And neither did Mrs. Flynn? Neither did any of them that said it. Any of them what said they came in my room and saw me asleep. And neither did Mrs. Brooks? Neither did Mrs. Brooks. This is just something that is planned up to get me out of a job. And you feel they're all against you? Yes, I know it because there's no truth in it. You feel like everybody's against you in that school? Yes, all of those that testified, they testified because they wanted to see me without a job. And you feel like at this time that they're lying because they want to get rid of you? That's all. And what advantage would they have of getting rid of you? So they could get some of their friends in. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, this line of MR. McCLURE: I'll withdraw that question. MR. GUARISCO: I'll sustain the objection. Then if Mr. Tooks testified that he couldn't find any lesson plans in your classroom and Mrs. Brooks testified that she couldn't find any lesson plans in your class room, they would be plotting against you, too, is that it? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I object to the way he is phrasing "plotting against you", which is in the minds of Mr. Tooks and Mrs. Brooks and I don't feel that that's a proper question. MR. McCLURE: She's already testified that she feels like all these folks are against her. MR. MARSHALL: But you're talking now about a plot of some kind? MR. GUARISCO: I don't think it's material at this point. Mr. McClure, would you ask the direct question with regard to the individuals? Then if Mr. Tooks said that you didn't have a lesson plan he would not be telling the truth? No, sir, because I can go and get the lesson plans out of the car and show them to you. But if he said they weren't in your classroom — Well, there wasn't no place else for them to be but in the classroom. And then Mrs. Brooks would also be lying if she said she came in there on several occasions to teach your class and they weren't there? Mrs. Brooks didn't teach my class. Then she wouldn't be telling the truth on that? No. Then nobody is telling the truth in this case except you and your witnesses? I wouldn't say that, either. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q You have heard the testimony of Mr. Tooks that during the 197-68 school term your desk and your room were in a deplorable condition? A Yes, I heard that. Q So he wouldn't be telling the truth if he said there was something on there? A Well, why was it there? Here's the thing, now, Triple A Science demands some things and I taught three or four Triple A Science lessons with the aid of Mrs. Hollis, and she's here and she was grade level chairman, before I took the Triple A Science course this summer myself. We had taste and smell and in taste and smell we had to have some kind of candies, sour balls candy, chocolate candy, and bran bread, which I had to cook at home where you just take the flour and make it up and spread it out and cook it with nothing in it, you know, for taste. We had a mold garden and, well, if bread is going to mold it has to sit somewhere and it certainly was there on the science table, some bread. We had one occasion where we had to have vinegar, sugar, salt, and many other things and if you would look through the Triple A Science kit you would see that these lessons ask for these things and I had them to teach the lessons. It was not for a filthy purpose; it was something that Triple A Science asked that you use and I had it there for that purpose 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and there wasn't no point in me hauling it up and down the road if I was going to teach the children. I brought it one day and I let it stay there until we finished the lesson and when we finished the lesson everything was cleared away. We ate in the classroom, anyway. Q But you do admit that there was partially eaten food? A No, it wasn't no partially eaten food. I'm telling you what it was for and if you will look at a Triple A Scienc■ kit you'll see what it was for. Q All right, were there food wrappers and candy on your desk in your room? A I bought two Hershey bars and the children ate the things. I bought a bag of sour ball candy for taste with my own money and we had lemons, sugar, salt, and many other things and then you have a little score sheet that you give the children to write on and after they would eat these things or smell them or taste them, they would write what they thought it smelled like. We even had some peanut butter wrapped in some paper there. We had a lot of things under taste and smell. Q All right, but you did have those things there and how long would you leave those things on your desk? A Well, you wouldn't leave nothing over a weekend like that. Q But you think you may leave it for several days during the week? Well, certainly if you're teaching a lesson. There are three or four different activities to some of the Science lessons. You do one activity today and you do the next activity tomorrow and you do the next activity the next day. Well, that would call for it to be there on hand for three days if you have three activities in the lesson and 1 think some of my co-workers here know what Triple A Science calls for and you don't just finish the lesson the first day you have it. Does the lesson plan call for leaving candy wrappers on your desk for more than one day? If I bought candy it's supposed to have been wrapped. When I got it out of the store it was wrapped but when I opened it and had the lesson the children ate the candy. Let me direct your attention to the meeting you had in Mr. Tooks' room on November 12, 1968. That's right. Did you, either in the office or outside of the office oi in the hall or in the lounge, at any time start screaming and hollering? When we left the office -- if they hadn't bothered me I probably wouldn't have said nothing, although I was pretty full. Like Mrs. Hollis described, I know I was crying and I did like that (demonstrating) to catch a tear and she said, "Don't go in the room and let the 132 children see you crying, just go to the lounge and pull yourself together." Then I turned around to go to the lounge and I met the music teacher and then she started and wanted to know what was wrong, "What's wrong with you; what's wrong with you?" I didn't want to talk so I just said, "Oh, Lord have mercy, don't you all bother me," and, of course, I screamed. I went on in the teacher's lounge and got in the bathroom and fastened up in the bathroom. Did you continue to scream? I screamed a little bit until I got it all out of my chest and then I washed my face and by the time I walked out of the bathroom Mrs. Manning came to me and said, "Mr. Tooks wants to see you and Mr. Tooks says for you tc go home but he says come by the office," and I said, "Well, I don't have my things." So Mrs. Manning accompanied me to his office and she told me to leave, that she didn't think that I should be there, that I was mentally unbalanced and things like that. Did you go back to your classroom after that? My pocketbook was down there with my car keys in it and I had ray typewriter down there and one or two other thing and I had to go back to my room. Did Mr. Tooks offer to send someone down to your classroom to get your pocketbook and your keys for you? No, he didn't. Q He didn't offer that at all? A No, because I don't guess he knew they were down there. He didn't offer to send anybody but he sent Mrs. Manning after me and there were no children in the room when I went back because they were in PE and Physical Ed. There was no children in there, the room was empty. Q But you did go back to the room. A Sure, I'm not going to tell any story. I had to go back to the room to get my things. I couldn't have gotten the car out because my car keys and all that was in the room. MR. McCLURE: I have no further questions. MR. MARSHALL: I have no further questions. MR. GUARISCO: Any questions from the Board? (No response) I have a few questions. BY MR. GUARISCO: Q Mrs. White, how old are you? A I have a birthday the 16th of September and I'll be 61. Q You will be 61? A Yes. Q And you've been teaching 40 years? A Yes. Q So you were 21 when you started? A Almos t. You made a statement earlier to the effect that when Mr. Tooks gave you instructions that you were not to use the Q 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 record player for the type of music that was being played that you then locked it up and never used it again. Do you mean never again that year? A No, I mean the children. I would use it but, you see, it was out on the table when they was playing it before. It was just out there in the room on a table and I didn't lock it up at the end of the day, see, and that's why they could go in there at 7:00 in the morning and play it. But after then I locked it up and, see, the children couldn't get it after I locked it up until I unlocked the cabinet and played it myself. Q The statement you made before was that you didn't use it for anything else after that. Did you mean that? A I mean the children didn't; I'm sorry. MR. DAVIS: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask a question. MR. GUARISCO: Mr. Davis, I'm going to have to say chat you weren't here the first day and you weren't here a part of this morning and I don't think you can parti cipate in this. MR. DAVIS: All right. MR. GUARISCO: Any other questions by anybody on the Board? (No response) All right, we'll excuse you and you can return to your seat. Do you have rebuttal? MR. McCLURE: No, no rebuttal. MR. GUARISCO: Anything either one of you want to 135 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 bring up before we adjourn for an executive session of the Board, which we will do in a room down the hall? MR. McCLURE: I didn't know whether we would have an opportunity for a short closing statement. MR. GUARISCO: If you feel you have to make one, both of you, I would prefer that you hold it down. We've got a lot on the record, anyway, but if you feel like you want to summarize it and tie the whole thing together you can each have five minutes and that ought to do it. Let'3 give you about a two-minute break here and give you a chance to gather your thoughts. (BRIEF RECESS WAS TAKEN) MR. GUARISCO: All right, we will give each one of you five minutes for summation. Both of you, as I under stand it now, for the record, have stipulated to waive any recording of this summation and at the end of that time, I'll let you know when your five minutes are up, we will then proceed with the rest of the proceedings here. (SUMMATIONS NOT REPORTED) MR. GUARISCO: All right, let's get back on the record for a minute. We will have an executive session; that is, the Chairman of the Board and the three members who have sat throughout this hearing or proceedings. Mr. Broward Davis will be excused in that he has not participa ted and therefore should not be in the room deliberating with us at this time. This, as I understand it, both of you will stipulate and agree to. Is that right, Mr. Marshall? MR. MARSHALL: Yes, sir, I think you're correct. MR. McCLURE: I agree with that. MR. GUARISCO: We will, however, meet with our attorney, Mr. Carothers, and Mr. Ashmore,as secretary of this Board, will be with us in the room. Only the four of us will have the prerogative of voting and making a decision. As sonn as we're done we will return to this room and let you know what decision we have arrived at and we will try to be here as soon as we can once we have made our deliberations. So I believe there are a set of charges there that we would want to take with us. (BOARD RETIRED AT 12:30 P.M.; RETURNED AT 1:15 P.M.) MR. GUARISCO: We are back on the record, now. Afte deliberation, by unanimous decision of the four Board members, who have sat here and heard the testimony and the proceedings in this hearing, it is our conclusion that Charge 1, misconduct in office, Paragraphs A and B, have been sustained by the testimony presented; that Charge 2, wilful neglect of duty and gross insubordina tion, have not been sustained by the testimony; that Charge 4 -- that last was 2 and 3 — incompetenty, Paragraphs A and B, have been sustained by the testimony 137 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 presented, and it is the decision, the unanimous decision, that Mrs. Alberta Taylor White be discharged and her contract of employment cancelled. So pursuant to stipula tion of both counsel, the findings will be reduced to writing and submitted to you upon completion and receipt of the transcript, at which time you will be allowed to file exceptions to the findings as they are submitted to you and ample time given you for the filing of such ex ceptions. Are there any questions anybody has? All right, we will stand adjourned with regard to this hearing. (HEARING WAS ADJOURNED) 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 F L O R I D A ) COUNTY OF LEON ) CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER I, CAROL C. CAUSSEAUX, C.S.R., Official Court Reporter in the Second Judicial Circuit of Florida, Notary Public, Stat of Florida At Large, do hereby certify that I reported the foregoing proceedings in shorthand and by Audograph recording at the time and place and in the cause indicated in the captio that the same has been reduced to typewriting under my direct supervision and that the preceding pages 1 through 137 » inclusive, constitute a true and accurate transcription of my notes and records of said proceeding. I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither related to nor employ by either counsel or party involved in this litigation and that I have no interest, financial or otherwise, in the outcom of the same. WITNESS my hand and official seal at Tallahassee, Leon County, Florida, this 22nd day of September, A.D., 1969. CAKOi- v.. •*., C5R. 308 L e o n C ounty Courthouse P. O . Box 9 6 4 Tallahassee,Floricla 32301 Notary Public, State of Florida at Large Com Mission Expires Dec. 3, 1970 Bor.JeJ By A n v -rc a n Fire & C asua lly Co.