Correspondence from Guinier to Edwards
Correspondence
January 14, 1982
Cite this item
-
Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. NAACP v. Thompson Transcript of Record Vol. II, 1964. f11ee915-bf9a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/89725766-c9de-4753-a2b9-25e01d5615ee/naacp-v-thompson-transcript-of-record-vol-ii. Accessed August 19, 2025.
Copied!
Transcript of Record
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FIFTH CIRCUIT
NO. 21741
NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT
OF COLORED PEOPLE, ET AL, APPELLANTS
VS .
ALLEN THOMPSON, MAYOR OF THE CITY OF
JACKSON, MISSISSIPPI, ET AL, APPELLEES
VOLUME II
Pages 286 through 573
(App eal
the
from the United States District Court
Southern District of Mississippi)
for
I N D E X (Continued)
V0LUME_II
TRANSCRIPT OF TESTIMONY OF JAMES BROWN AND LUCIAN
RICHARDS IN CIVIL ACTIONS NO . 3430 AND 3431 ON
JUNE 12, 1963 286
Dir . Cr . R edi r . Recr.
Lucian Richards 288 291 297 298
James Brown 299 301 311 311
TRANSCRIPT OF HEARING ON COUNT TWO OF COMPLAINT 312
Dir . Cr . R edir . Recr.
Heber A. Ladner 318
Joe T. Patterson 325
Martin R. McLendon 345
Plaintiffs Rest
EXHIBIT D-l
Hearing Concluded
ANSWERS OF PLAINTIFF RALPH EDwIN KING TO QUESTIONS
ON ORAL EXAMINATION, JANUARY 30, 1964 370
TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL, FEBRUARY 3, 4, 5, 6, 27, 28, 1964 392
Dir. Cr. Redir. Recr.
Ruby Hurley 2
Plaintiff Ex. 1 396
Plaintiff Ex. 2 396
Plaintiff Ex. 3 398
P1.’s Ex . 4 398
Def enda ntT s Ex. 1 for Iden . 404
Def enda nt ’ s Ex. 2 for iden . 408
Cha rl es Evers 418 43 2,466 457 461
Def enda nt’s E x . 3 and 4 for ici en . 438
Def enda nt’s Ex. 5 for iden . 439
D ef endant *s Ex . 6 for iden 441
Mrs . Doris Alliso n 475 484 501
497
Rev. R . L . T . Smith 505 529
V erna Anne Bailey 546 555 572
349
350
369
Page
i n .
286 .
(T284) IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI
JACKSON DIVISION
IN THE MATTER OF THE APPLICATION OF
LUCIAN RICHARDS FOR A WRIT OF HABEAS
CORPUS No. 3431
Consolidat ed
IN THE MATTER OF THE APPLICATION OF
JAMES BROWN FOR A WRIT OF HABEAS
CORPUS No . 3430
TRANSCRIPT OF TESTIMONY
APPEARANCES: Mrs. Barbara A. Morris, 20 West 40th St.,
New York, N. Y.
Hon. James Young, 115^ N. Parish Street,
Jackson, Miss.,
for petitioners.
Hon. Thomas H. Watkins, Plaza Bldg., Jackson,
Miss.;
Hon. E. W. Stennett, City Hall, Jackson, Miss.
Hon. Robert .Nichols, Jackson, Miss.
for respondents.
BE IT REMEMBERED that on Thursday, June 13, 1963, the above
entitled cause came on for hearing before the Honorable
S. C. Mize, U. S. District Judge, at Biloxi, Mississippi,
in the Southern Division of the Southern District of Missis
sippi, and the following proceedings were had and entered of
record, to-wit :
(T285) MR. WATKINS :
We’d like the record to show that the petitioners,
287 .
James Brown and Lucian Richards, are present in court in
the custody of the respondents.
THE COURT:
Might bring them into the bar and let them be
seated over there by counsel.
I note from the record in the files here that
Judge Cox has already entered an order consolidating these
two cases for hearing on the petition, and is that agreeable
to petitioners?
MRS . MORRIS :
Yes .
THE COURT:
Agreeable with you, Mr. Watkins?
MR . WATKINS :
Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
I have read the applications, so I will hear from
you. Any evidence to be introduced, or are you standing on
the record?
MRS. MORRIS:
I would like to introduce evidence from the two
petitioners, but prior to that, I find I have to amend the
affidavits for these petitions. In Paragraph 1 they allege
they are residents of the City of Jackson. It was my under-
L. Richards, Dir 288
(T286)
standing, and theirs’, that the fell within a definition of
a resident. Both of them have been here shorter periods of
time, one from New York and the other from St. Louis. I
would like the record to show that.
THE COURT:
Which one is from New York?
MRS . MORRIS :
James Brown.
THE COURT:
And the other one is from St. Louis?
MRS. MORRIS:
Yes, Your Honor. They have been residing in
Jackson for a period of time.
THE COURT:
You say you desire to offer evidence on the
petition?
MRS . MORRIS :
I do. I would like to call Lucian Richards.
LUCIAN RICHARDS called as a witness, having first
been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MORRIS:
Q State your name?
A My name is Lucian Richards.
L. Richards, Dir. 289 .
Q And your occupation?
A I am a nurse anesthetist at City Hospital, St.
Louis .
Q I call your attention to June 5, 1963, and ask you
if on that day you were arrested by police in the City of
Ja ckson?
A Yes, I was.
Q Prior to that arrest can you tell me what you were
doing?
A Prior to this arrest I and five other persons were
walking approximately five feet apart next to the curb on, I
think, Capitol Street — I am not sure. I think it was Capitol
Street, and at approximately 2:15 p.m., I would imagine.
Q Was there any pedestrian traffic on the sidewalk?
A At the time we were walking I saw no persons on
the sidewalk.
Q Were you walking on the sidewalk properly?
A We were walking approximately one foot from the
street, on the curb.
Q On that day did you have occasion to be arrested
by police?
A Yes, we were arrested.
Q Had you walked any distance before then?
A We had walked one block and we had started about
L. Richards, Dir. 290 .
mid-way the next block when we were stopped by the officers.
Q Was there any conversation between you and the
officers?
A Yes, there was. May I state the conversation?
Q Plea se.
Q As I remember, one of the officers asked me if I
had a permit to parade and I said I did not have a permit.
At this time he asked me to move on and almost simultaneously
he said I was under arrest and that I should step aside,
which I did.
Q Were you carrying anything at this period of time?
A I was carrying one small American flag.
Q What about the others?
A They were carrying a similar flag.
Q Were there any posted signs or things of that nature
being displayed?
A We had on wool shirts, sweaters, and these shirts
had various inscriptions on the back. The particular shirt
I was wearing had "God is on our side", I think it was.
Q Did you have any occasion to have difficulty with
traffic during the time you were there?
A Definitely not. There was no difficulty with traf
fic.
MRS . MORRIS:
L. Richards, Cr. 291.
I have no further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR . WATKINS:
Q All of you were dressed alike?
A Yes, we were.
Q All of you came there by pre-arranged plan?
A Yes, sir.
Q When and where was that plan made?
A The plan was made, as I remember, at a building on
Lynch Street, a public building, I think it was, a masonic
building, I think.
Q With whom did you meet and discuss your plans for
that day?
MRS. MORRIS:
I object to that. It is not within the scope of
my direct examination and certainly not relevant. He was
arrested for parading without a permit. That involved walk
ing on the streets of the City of Jackson. I don’t think
the rest is relevant at all.
THE COURT:
Overrule the objection. As I understand it, cer
tainly when you put one on the witness stand the fact that
you didn’t go into that feature of it is no longer a ground
for objection. He is subject to cross-examination about any
L. Richards, Cr. 292 .
relevant matters. Of course, this is a civil action and
wherein he is charged under state law. So I think the cross-
examination is proper to determine, not specifically for this
court to determine, unless it is so apparent that there was
no parade, because it is a question of state law. So I think
it is competent to go into just everything — where it was
planned and whether or not they had a petition filed for
application for a parade, or whether a certificate had been
granted or not. So I think it competent on cross examination
and will overrule the objection.
Q My question was, with whom did you discuss your
plans that morning for this event?
A I discussed the plans with eight other young fel
lows. I don’t recall all of the names. I don’t know all of
them. They were young fellows, younger than myself.
Q Who was the leader of the group:
A At the time I was the leader of the group.
Q And it was an NAACP group?
MRS. MORRIS:
I obj ect to that .
THE COURT :
Overrule the objection.
A. I am not a member of the NAACP, and, as far as I
know, this was not a NAACP group.
293 .
(T290)
Q Weren’t you wearing a shirt that had NAACP on the
front of it?
A Yes, we were.
Q Why were you wearing that if you weren’t a member
of the NAACP?
A I asked the same question and the answer given me
was that — I don’t know this to be true or not — that the
police were confiscating placards, so this was a bit of
strategy — that we wear the shirts.
Q Whose idea was that?
A I do not know. The shirts were there when I
L. Richards, Cr.
arrived .
Q Was that John Salter’s idea?
A I don’t know Mr. Salter.
Q Don’t you know that he is Chairman of the Strategy
Committee for the demonstrations that are going on in Jackson?
A No, sir, I don’t.
Q Well, whose strategy was it?
A I have no idea .
Q Now, as I understand it, you claim to have requested
a permit for this parade?
A I understand a permit was requested. I might add
that I had only been in Jackson eight days. I don’t know the
prior proceedings that has been going on here.
L. Richards, Cr. 294 .
Q Don’t you allege in Paragraph 5 of your sworn
p etition:: "Petitioner avers that a permit was requested."?
A This is the information I had, yes.
Q Where did you get that information from?
A From the people at the temple. I think one of the
fellows as David Dennis.
Q David Dennis is the field representative for the
Congress of Racial Equality in Mississippi?
A Yes, sir.
Q And he told you they had requested a permit for the
parade and it had not been granted?
A I asked him if he had requested one and he said he
had . As far as I know one had not been granted.
Q Were you also familiar with the fact that the
Shriner s in Jackson had requested a permit for a parade either
that day or one day near that day and it was denied?
A At the time I did not know.
Q You found out since?
A Yes, I saw it somewhere written down.
Q And you all decided to go ahead and parade without
the permit?
A Yes, sir .
Q You knew that there was a city ordinance which
required a permit from the mayor before parading?
(T292)
L. Richards, Cr. 295.
QA I was not under the impression we were parading.
I have conducted similar demonstrations in other places and
they were not termed as parade.
Q Where have you conducted other demonstrations?
A St. Louis and Chicago.
Q when did you last conduct one?
A Two weeks ago in St. Louis.
Q What was the purpose of that?
A Discrimination in hiring. We were protesting.
Q For whom were you parading?
A We were parading for the Congress of Racial Equality.
Q And for whom were you parading in Jackson?
A This is an independent project for me — I don’t
know. I understand you have a chapter of the NAACP and CORE
in Jackson. The only person I know is Mr. Dennis.
Q You also know that both of those organizations have
joined in a set of demonstrations that have been going on for
a number of weeks?
A I have that information, Yes, sir.
Q You have seen these posters they have passed out
urging people not to shop of Capitol Street, and with the
names of both NAACP and CORE on them, haven’t you.
(hands to witness)
A This is my first time of seeing this poster.
L. Richards, Cr. 296 .
(T293)
Q You do know that is the purpose of the demonstra
tions, don’t you?
A I would imagine, yes.
Q After you were arrested, soon after you were
arrested, you were advised that you would have your freedom
by posting a $225.00 bond, weren’t you?
A I was asked if I would care to call my lawyer, and
I said no, I didn’t want to call. I had no knowledge of a
$250.00 bond.
Q I said $225.00.
A $225.00. Sorry.
Q Was it part of the plan that you would be one who
would remain in jail in order to have this proceeding con
ducted — this habeas corpus proceeding?
A I decided to remain in jail because I feel it is
morally wrong to have any type discrimination as you have in
Jackson and other places. This is why I remained in jail.
Q You also understand, don’t you, that your trial
was set for 4:00 p.m. in Jackson Monday June 10th, and that
at the request of your attorneys you were not tried at that
time pending the outsome of this proceeding?
A This would be my understanding, yes, sir.
Q And you are represented by a New York attorney and
by a Jackson, Mississippi, attorney, is that correct?
L. Richards, Cr. 297 .
A Yes sir.
Q For what purpose did you come to Jackson, Mississippi?
A To visit Mr. Dennis.
Q At his request?—
4
A No, sir .
q — to participate in the Jackson demonstrations?
A If I considered it important enough to do so, and
I did, Yes sir.
Q Considered what?
A If I considered worthy to demonstrate that I should.
(T294) So I decided to demonstrate.
Q And you did demonstrate on the occasion when you
were arrested?
A Yes, sir.
MR. WATKINS:
That is all.
THE COURT:
Any redirect?
MRS . MORRIS:
Yes, please.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS . MORRIS:
Q Can you tell us the purpose of your walking on the
street on June 5th?
L. Richards, Redir. 298 .
A The purpose of my walking, and I assume the purpose
of the others, were to protest the unfair practices in Jackson.
And this is the reason I was walking — to protest discrimina
tion and the inadequate facilities of the Negro community here.
Q You stated there were five people with you?
A Yes, ma m .
Q Did you endeavor to parade, within that word
"parade”? Did you consider it a parade?
MR. WATKINS :
We object to that. This is leading the witness.
THE COURT :
Overrule the objection.
A No, Mam. I have never heard the word "parade"
until I arrived in Jackson. We never consider it a parade.
(T295) MRS. MORRIS:
No further questions.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q You were walking in tandem, that is, one right
behind the other, down the street, weren’t you?
A Yes, sir.
Q You were dressed in uniform, similar to clothing,
weren’t you?
A Yes, sir.
L. Richards, Recr. 299 .
(T296)
Q You were each carrying a flag, weren’t you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you were doing it as a demonstration?
A As a demonstration, yes.
Q And you tried to get a parade permit before you
did it?
A A parade permit, Sir?
Q Yes.
A I assume they did. I don’t know.
MR. WATKINS:
That is all.
(Witness excused.)
JAMES BROWN called as a witness, having first been
duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS . MORRIS:
Q Mr. Brown, give your name and occupation.
A James Brown. I just came from New York five weeks
ago and I am not working anywhere for time being.
Q On June 5th were you in Jackson, Mississippi?
A Yes.
Q You had occasion to be arrested?
A Yes, I was arrested on Capitol Street.
Q Can you tell me the details that led up to the
J . Brown, Dir 300 .
(T297)
arrest?
A Me and four more youngsters was walking down the
street with an American flag.
Q How far apart were you walking?
A About five feet apart.
Q Were you wearing shirts?
A Yes.
Q Did they have anything printed on them?
A "Fighting For Our Equal Rights".
Q What portion of the sidewalk were you walking on?
A Walking on the side of the curb where the meters is,
off the sidewalk.
Q Was there any jamming of pedestrians, traffic or
street traffic during the course of your walk?
A No .
Q How long did you walk?
A We walked one block.
Q Do you know the policeman who talked to you?
A Yes. I think that’s him right back there.
Q You want to point out which one it is for me.
A He’s setting right there. (Indicating)
Q Did you have any discussion with the policeman?
A No. When I got there he walked across the street
and said "you was under arrest"
J . Brown, Cr 301 .
(T298)
Q That’s all?
A He said, "you under arrest, you under arrest, you
under arrest and you under arrest." Then he say, "give me
the flag", and I gave him the flag.
MRS. MORRIS.:
I have no further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS :
Q How long had you lived in New York?
A This last time I been there a year.
Q Where did you live before that?
A I was born in Jackson.
Q When did you leave Jackson to move to New York?
A I left Jackson in 1948.
Q What kind work did you do in New York?
A Well, I worked at a book binding factory, and I
worked at a hospital, and I sold Fuller products.
Q How did you happen to return to Jackson a week
ago, or whenever you came back?
A To see my grandmother.
Q Did you come back at the request of any organiza
tion such as the NAACP or the CORE?
A No..
Q When did you make your first contact with either
J . Brown, Cr. 302 .
(T299)
one of those organizations after you got back?
A well, it was Monday, a week ago Monday. My little
cousin — . It was Tuesday a week ago. My little cousin he
come by there and he asked me ’’Would you come over there and
go with us to march with us tomorrow?” I say, ”1 don’t know.”
I say, ”1 might.”
Q Was that the day before your arrest?
A Yes.
Q He came and asked you to go march with them?
A Yes.
Q Did you go meet with them somewhere before the
march?
A No, didn’t go nowhere. I was at home.
Q How did you know when and where they were going to
march?
A The way it went, I went over there with him.
Q Went over where?
A Cross town.
Q Where? Where did you go?
A To a hall. I don’t know where it is.
Q On Lynch Street?
A I couldn’t tell you, exactly sure.
Q Who was there?
A Beg pardon.
J . Brown, Cr 303 .
Q Who was there?
A Who was there? Well, I met him there, (indicating)
the fellow that was up here talking and my cousin and some
more people was there talking.
Q Is that when you were making the plans for the
ma rch?
A I wasn’t making any plans.
Q Is that where the plans for the march were made?
A That’s where they was at, there, when I made it
there.
Q And is that told you when and where you would
march?
A He didn’t tell me what I was going to march, or
anything. He just told me to come on and go with them, so I
went. And we set down there and we played cards, didn’t no
body say nothing. So a gentleman stood up and asked me,
’’would you care to demonstrate?” I say, ”1 don’t know.” I
say, ”1 might.” So my little cousin say, ’’come on and go
ahead,” so I didn’t say nothing else.
Q Did you talk to your grandmother about it?
A No, I didn’t. She asked me where was I going and
I said I was going to town.
Q You didn’t tell her you were going to demonstrate?
A No
J. Brown, Cr 304 .
(T300) Q Was it at that that meeting that they gave you the
shirt to wear with NAACP on the front and something on the
back?
A Yes, he gave me a shirt to wear.
Q At that meeting?
A I had done left the meeting when I put the shirt
o n .
Q Who gave you the shirt?
A I don’t know the man’s name.
Q A man you don’t know gave you a shirt to wear?
A Yes.
Q To use in the demonstration?
A Yes.
Q What was on the front of it?
A N A C P .
Q Are you a member of the N A C P?
A Sure.
Q Were they paying you something for doing it?
A No .
Q Promise you anything?
A No, Sir, they haven’t promised me anything.
Q What was on the back of it?
A ”I’m Fighting For My Equal Rights” .
Q Did you think of that slogan, or did someone else
J . Brown, Cr. 305 .
(T301)
put that on the shirt?
A It was on there when I got it.
Q Were you carrying a flag?
A Yes, I was carrying a American flag.
Q Who furnished you with that?
A A man gave me a flag.
Q What man?
A I do not know his name.
Q Did he give you those things or did he lend them
to you?
A He gave them to me.
Q He gave them to you?
A He gave me the flag, but they took the flag.
Q He took the flag?
A The policeman took the flag.
Q Where were you told to meet them? Where was the
march to begin?
A Beg your pardon?
Q Where was the march to start?
A I started off in the middle of the street.
Q And you were marching single file?
A Just about five or six feet apart, when we was walk
ing.
Q Do you know what efforts had been made to get a
J . Brown, Cr. 306 .
(T302)
permit to make that march?
A I sur e didn’t.
Q Did you hear any discussion of that?
A No, I sure didn’t.
Q Well, you realize that you allege in your sworn
petition that an effort was made to get a permit, don’t you?
MRS . MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to that. He’s not accurately
reporting what the petition says. It starts out "On informa
tion and belief".
THE COURT:
I overrule the objection.
MR . WATKINS:
Q Do you know anything about efforts that were made
to get a permit for that demonstration?
A Yes, they said they was getting a permit.
Q Who said that?
A I do not know none of the peoples’ names or any
thing.
Q As you were marching one behind the other, each
with the shirts with NAACP and the slogan on the back and
carrying the American flag, you were marching down the
street, was it Capitol Street?
A Yes.
(T303)
Q And you attracted some attention by the passersby —
people passing by, didn’t you?
A Well, we was marching — walking down the street and
so everybody just run out of the store, and the movie camera
man, they must have been waiting; they was right across the
street there with their cameras.
Q That’s an interesting point. How did the movie
camera men just happen to be there at the time you were walking?
A I don’t know, but he got right in my face with it.
Q Don’t you know that you notified the press media
and the cameramen as to when and where you were going to march
so they would meet you there?
A Who notified them?
Q You or somebody working with you?
A I didn’t notify nobody.
Q Did some of your friends?
A I don’t know. I couldn’t tell you.
Q When you decided to demonstrate or take part in
these demonstrations in Jackson, did you know what the pur
pose of the demonstration was?
A By the way I heard it. I heard them talking about
demonstrating, that people had been demonstrating, so I
listened to it on the news. So, I never did come to town or
anything, and didn’t think nothing about it.
J . Brown, Cr. 307 .
308 .
Q So you really ever find out what the demonstrations
were all about?
A No, sure didn’t .
Q But you demonstrated anyway?
A Yes.
Q You demonstrated in a demonstration with the camera
men meeting you there at the place where you demonstrated,
didn’t you?
A They come across the street. They was all across
the street walking.
Q And you knew you hadn’t been able to get a permit
for it, didn’t you?
A Well, I tell you, they had a permit coming through,
I read through the plans there. I did not know exactly from
the first beginning.
Q Did they tell you they were going to bond you out
(T304) if you got arrested?
A No, they didn’t tell me nothing like that.
Q Did they tell you they weren’t going to bond you
out ?
A They didn’t tell me nothing like that.
Q Did you raise the question of whether or not you
were going to be arrested?
A I figured probably I would be arrested cause the
rest was marching and they was arrested.
J . Brown, Cr 309 .
Q Well, you figured that you were doing something
that was illegal, didn’t you?
A I figured it was illegal.
Q Did you know that one of the purposes of this cam
paign that has been going on in Jackson for several weeks was
to try to persuade people not to shop on Captiol Street, and
have you seen one of those? (hands to witness)
A First time I ever saw one in all my life.
Q And the first time you’ve found out what it all
about that you were demonstrating in Jackson, too?
A Yes, sir.
Q As you paraded down the sidewalk did you notice
that the people on the walk who normally using it backed up
against the buildings to let you go by?
A We was right here on the little sort of curb like
that walking on it. We was not walking out in the middle of
the concrete.
Q I understand that. You were walking on the curb
and as you were walking on the curb did other people who were
(T305) using the sidewalk normally back up against the building to
let you go by?
A They didn’t back up — didn’t have to back up. We
was over there where the cars was, right there on the side
where you put your money in the meter at. We was right there.
J . Brown, Cr 310 .
The sidewalk is over on this side.
Q I understand where you were, but didn’t they, the
other pedestrians, stop walking and get up against the build
ing?
A I wasn’t paying that much attention to them.
Q You don’t know. Now, you were marching one right
behind the other, is that correct?
A About five feet apart.
Q All dressed alike?
A Well, we had on sweaters alike.
Q With the same emblems and slogans?
A I don’t know what the others had behind their’s —
wrote behind their’s, but I know what I had on mine.
Q The same emblem on the front?
A Yes .
Q And each of you carrying a flag?
A Yes .
Q And you were arrested because you didn’t have a
permit for that demonstration, is that right?
A He didn’t ask for no permit when he arrested me.
(T306) He just said, "you under arrest, you under arrest, you under
arrest and you under arrest.”
MR . WATKINS :
I believe that’s all
(T 3 0 7 )
(T308)
J. Brown, Redir. & Recr. 311.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS . MORRIS :
*
Q Are you concerned for your equal rights?
A Yes.
MRS. MORRIS:
I have no further questions.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR . WATKINS :
Q Did you have a permit for that march?
MRS . MORRIS:
He has asked that.
A You asked me once.
MR. WATKINS:
He was asked that question several times. I just
want to be sure the record shows he did not have a permit.
MRS. MORRIS:
I think the record does show that.
MR . WATKINS:
All right. That is all.
(Witness excused.)
(The foregoing instrument carries proper Court
Reporter’s Certificate which is not copied here.)
(The foregoing instrument carries proper Certificate
of Service which is not copied here.)
312 .
(T215)
(T216)
(Title Omitted - FILED JUL 13 1963)
HEARING ON COUNT TWO
OF COMPLAINT____
APPEARANCES:
HONORABLE FRANK D. REEVES, Washington 1, D. C.;
HONORABLE JACK H..YOUNG, Jackson, Mississippi;
Appearing for the Plaintiffs.
HONORABLE JOE T. PATTERSON, Attorney General, State of
Mississippi, Jackson, Mississippi;
HONORABLE MARTIN R. McLENDON, Assistant Attorney General,
State of Mississippi, Jackson, Mississippi;
Appearing for Defendants in Count Two.
BE IT REMEMBERED that on to-wit, Monday, June 24, 1963, the
above style'd and numbered cause came on for hearing before
the HONORABLE SIDNEY C. MIZE, United States District Judge
for the Southern District of Mississippi, on Count Two of
the Complaint, at Hattiesburg, Mississippi, in the Hatties
burg Division, when the following proceedings were had and
entered of record:
BY MR. REEVES:
If Your Honor please, the affidavit includes a
development in connection with this matter which certainly
comes as a surprise to counsel in that since the motion is
filed the State acting through the Governor and the Secretary
: ; : x
313 .
of State has denied the application of the corporate plaintiff
here for domestication. That denial will be effective I
assume in the form of a letter from the Governor dated June 17
to the Secretary of State which notice was then transmitted by
letter dated June 19 to the plaintiff corporation which notice
as of this morning --- unable to understand counsel mumbling
we had not received. Now there is in my mind a question as to
whether under the circumstances we would not need to develop
additional evidence beyond that which presently appears in the
record particularly in view of the fact that the denying the
application for domestication includes no reason for that
denial. However, if Your Honor would indulge me before
making a decision as to whether to request Your Honor to grant
us a continuance for that purpose I would like to consult by
telephone with the general counsel of the NAACP in New York
and have his guidance in deciding to proceed today without
the additional evidence or to ask Your Honor to continue the
mat ter .
BY THE COURT :
Very well, let’s see, General, if he wants a con-
(T217) tinuance for some thirty days would that be agreeable with
you?
BY MR. MCLENDON:
We have no preference in the matter.
314 .
Very well, it will be satisfactory to me. I can
see where that would of course take you by surprise and pre
sents probably some new question at least some question about
which you have not thought and if you want to postpone it I
could do that but it would be at least thirty days before I
can hear it on its merits.
BY MR. REEVES:
May I raise this question in that light. I was not
present in Biloxi when this matter came up before Your Honor
last week but I am advised at that time a request was made by
counsel representing the plaintiffs for the Attorney General
to stipulate that pending the hearing of the termination of
this issue the State would not take any action, any punitive
action or any action which would be available to it under the
circumstances and a thirty day continuance -- unable to under
stand counsel mumbling --- by virtue under the statute a
corporation which has been denied domestication is subject to
certain penalties. We of course certainly would not want to
run that risk so I would wonder if Your Honor’s suggestion of
thirty day continuance would mean could be granted under con-
(T218) sideration of the State’s agreement to allow matters to remain
in status quo until this matter could be heard and determined.
BY THE COURT :
BY GENERAL PATTERSON:
315 .
Our position, if Your Honor please, is we are here
ready to answer on this matter and if the matter is to be
continued for thirty days then of course we certainly want the
record to show it was continued at the request of the com
plainants and not our request and we are not even joining in
t hat reque st .
BY THE COURT:
Yes, I understand that, but the reason I was sug
gesting thirty days while you were not requesting it you were
still not objecting to it if they requested it but you would
not make any agreement as to what your conduct would be during
that period of time so that I will give you time to confer and
if you want to I could give you until two o ’clock if you
wanted that long.
(T219) BY MR. REEVES:
I don’t think it would require that long, Your
Honor. We were prepared to go forward as I said on the state
of the record as it existed and I want to be sure that the
record that this is clear that we are prepared to go forward
this morning on our motion for preliminary injunction on the
state of the record as it existed at the time the motion was
filed. The reason for the request is only by virtue of the
fact that the State failed and refused to act on this applica
tion from December, 1962 until after this motion was filed and
316 .
has within the last week acted.
BY THE COURT:
Well, I will ask you this question and you probably
can answer it and if not all right but now then isn’t sub
stantially the only relief you ask against these three defend
ants in Count Two was to require them to act upon that appli
cation either to admit or deny the registration of the corpora
tion.
BY MR. REEVES:
It was more than that not to require them to act to
admit or deny but to require them to act to admit because in
so far as we’re advised and still are advised there is no
reason why the domestication should not be granted.
BY THE COURT :
But now could the Court in the matter of a discre
tion for them to, judicial discretion of course, for them to
(T220) act and the only thing the Court can do is compel them to act
or is it your contention that the Court can go ahead and com
pel them now.
BY MR. REEVES :
We submit it would be our position that uh uh in
the light of the factual allegations in this case and we will
argue if we have to proceed that the denial of domestication
is in and of itself a discriminatory act in violation of the
317 .
constitutional rights of this plaintiff.
BY THE COURT :
Very well, you may confer.
BY GENERAL PATTERSON:
Your Honor was imminently correct in that this
boils down to they are seeking to get an order from the court
compelling the Governor and the Secretary of State and myself
to act and that is the whole gist of their complaint to com
pel us to take action as requested by them, fact we have
already taken action, that is we have denied it.
BY MR. REEVES:
I would respectfully submit I think the prayers of
i
our complaint will show that uh specifically we not only
request action but we request action in the granting of the
domesticati on.
BY THE COURT:
Very well, I will let you confer with your asso-
(T22l) ciate counsel and then come back here.
BY MR. REEVES:
Thank you, sir.
(At which time the hearing of this cause was recessed
so that counsel for plaintiffs might confer with associate
counsel and was then again resumed, with same parties present
as previously.)
318 .
We are ready to proceed sir.
BY THE COURT:
You are ready to proceed. You are going to proceed
on the record?
BY MR . REEVES:
Yes sir, we are going to take testimony, Your
Honor .
BY THE COURT :
You’re going to take testimony. How long you
figure your testimony will take, Mr. McLendon?
BY MR. McLENDON:
We won’t have any testimony, Your Honor. We are
prepared to submit our affidavit on the facts that exist and
I don’t see how they can be conflicting.
BY MR. REEVES:
We will have the testimony of Mr. Ladner, Sir.
BY THE COURT :
Very well. Who will you have?
(T222) BY MR. REEVES:
I would like to call if I may Mr. Ladner, the
Secretary of State.
HONORABLE HEBER A. LADNER, a Defendant, called as
BY MR. REEVES:
a witness by Plaintiffs, was sworn and testified as follows
319 .H. A. Ladner, Cr.
BY MR . REEVES :
Q Please state your full name?
A Heber Austin Ladner.
Q And your official position the State of Mississippi?
A Secretary of State.
Q And for how long have you held t ha t po sition?
A Since 1948.
Q So that you were Secretary of State in December,
1962 when the plaintiff corporation NAACP filed application
for domestication?
A That’s true.
Q Can you tell me sir what if any disposition was
made by you of that application of the papers filed in con
nection with that application?
A The application was handled by my Deputy Secretary
of State, Mr. Carr, who has been in charge of the Corporation
Division some twenty years or more. It was received on
December the 3rd I believe and on December the 4th was trans
mitted to the office of Attorney General.
Q And since the date of that transmission to the office
of the Attorney General has your office had any further or
taken any further action or have any further action with
reference to that application?
A Well, actually I have no responsibility with
320 .
(T224)
H. A. Ladner, Cr.
reference to the handling of non-profit charters. It is
solely the responsibility of the Governor and as a matter of
fact the application was sent to my office in error in the
first place. It should have been transmitted to the Governor’s
office.
Q And you did in fact transmit it to the Attorney
General?
A My deputy, Mr. Carr, transmitted it, yes.
Q Well, now did there come a time when you were
advised that any action had been taken when you were officially
advised any action had been taken with reference to that
application?
A The action was taken on the 17th I believe of June.
Q And that was after you were served with a summons
and a complaint in this case?
A I believe that’s correct.
Q And can you tell us what the action was?
A Well, the Governor simply transmitted a letter to
us denying the domestication of the National Association for
the Advancement of Colored People, a New York corporation.
Q Can you tell us sir in what office of the State of
Mississippi the records are maintained with reference to what
corporations are accepted for domestication?
A Well, all of the records are kept in my office is
321 .
the place of recordation corporate, corporations.
«
Q Would you be able to tell us then sir during the
period since December of 1962 to date how many foreign corpora
tions have been accepted for domestication?
BY MR. McLENDON:
If the Court please, we object to the form of that
question. We are dealing with foreign non-profit corporation.
If he will restate it so that he will put his hypothetical
case in line with the case involved.
BY THE COURT:
H. A. Ladner, Cr.
Yes sir, sustain the objection.
BY MR. REEVES:
Q Can you tell us sir how many foreign non-profit
corporations have been accepted for domestication in the
State of Mississippi since December, 1962?
A Very few if any.
Q Are you able to state whether there have been any?
A I think not.
Q And are you able to state sir how many have
applied?
A So far as I know only one.
Q And is that one the plaintiff corporation?
A The one in question now.
Uh as a matter of fact, Mr. uh Ladner, the statuteQ
322 .
providing for uh domestication did not become effective until
(T225) January 1, 1963. Is that correct?
BY MR. McLENDON:
We object to that question, if the Court please.
The statute became effective in 1906 and certainly Mr. Ladner
is not in a position to argue with the Code.
BY THE COURT :
I will sustain the objection. It’s a question of
law and of course the statute speaks for itself.
BY MR . REEVES:
Q Were you aware that there was an amendment to the
statute effective in January, 1963?
A Well, as I said in the beginning I have no juris
diction over non-profit corporations.
Q The question is are you aware there was an amend
ment ?
BY MR. McLENDON:
We object to him continuing to ask him questions
concerning what the law is. The statutes are available.
BY THE COURT:
Well, that doesn’t ask him what it is. He is simply
asking if he was aware or knew an amendment was made in 1963.
I will overrule that objection.
A Oh I was advised, yes.
H. A. Ladner, Cr,
323 .
Q Now has the Attorney General or the Governor com-
(T226) municated to you any reason for the refusal or for the denial
of the application of the plaintiff corporation?
A Well, the record speaks for itself. The letter
transmitting the application to me with denial was very brief
said it is therefore denied.
Q That letter is not a part of the record so that’s
why I am asking you the question. Do you intend to put that
letter in the record sir?
BY MR. McLENDON:
We object to that, if the Court please.
BY THE COURT:
Sustain the objection.
BY MR. REEVES:
Q will you then answer the question are you aware
either from the Attorney General or from the Governor of any
reason that has been given for the denial of the application
of the plaintiff corporation for domestication?
A I am not .
Q Did you transmit notice of the denial of the
application to the agent or representative of the plaintiff
corporation?
A To the president of the NAACP .
H, A.- Ladner, Cr.
BY MR. REEVES:
324 .H. A . Ladner, Cr.
Q And when did you transmit that notice and by what
means?
A I believe was on the 19th, June 19th.
Q And by what means sir?
A What is the question?
(T227) Q By what means?
A By mail.
Q By regular mail?
A Regular mail.
Q So that you have no actual knowledge as to whether
that notice was received?
A That’s correct.
Q And is it correct sir that that transmittal of
notice by you also came after you were served with summons and
complaint in this case?
A That ’s true.
Q And after this motion was set for hearing?
A I don’t know about this particular, I think that’s
true, y e s ,i
BY MR. REEVES:
I have no further questions of this witness sir.
BY THE COURT:
Any examination by Defendant?
BY MR. McLENDON:
325 .
(T228)
We have no questions of this witness.
(Witness excused.)
BY MR . REEVES:
I would like to call the Attorney General, sir.
BY T HE COURT :
All right sir.
HONORABLE JOE T. PATTERSON, a Defendant, called as
a witness by Plaintiffs, was sworn and testified as follows:
BY MR. REEVES:
Q Please state your name sir?
A Joe T. Patterson.
Q And your official position of the State of Missis
sippi?
A Attorney General.
Q And for how long have you held that position?
A Since January, 1956.
Q You were Attorney General of the State of Missis
sippi then when the application for domestication was filed on
the part of the plaintiff corporation in this case?
A I was.
Q Now did you as Attorney General take any action
with reference to that application?
A I did.
J. T. Patterson, Cr.
Q Will you tell us what sir?
A I examined it and I referred it to the Governor
with my recommendations as required by statute.
Q Are you referring to the requirement of Section
5340 of the Code.
A I believe that is correct.
Q And will you tell us sir what was your advice
under the statute as to the legality and constitutionality
of the articles of incorporation?
A I have my letter of transmittal which will speak
for itself. Shall I read the letter?
BY THE COURT:
Yes sir .
A January 29, 1963. Honorable Ross R. Barnett,
Governor, State of Mississippi, New Capitol Building, Jackson,
Mississippi. Re: Application for domestication of National
Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Dear
Governor :
BY MR. REEVES:
Q Excuse me. Would you give the date of that letter?
A I stated it. January 29, 1963.
Q I am sorry. Thank you.
A Dear Governor Barnett: The above styled application
for domestication has been examined by this office. The sta
J. T. Patterson, Cr. 326.
tutes of this state currently in force have also been examined
327 .
Based upon my examination of the charter and the current
statutes it is my opinion that the application for domesti
cation is not authorized to be approved by your office. The
application is hereby delivered to you with the recommendation
that it be denied, returned to the office of the Secretary of
State for filing and the parties submitting the same be so
notified. Sincerely yours, Joe T. Patterson, Attorney General,
by Martin R. McLendon, Assistant Attorney General.
Q General Patterson, are you able to state what
(T230) specific conflict you found between the application as filed
and the articles of incorporation as filed in this case and
the statute of the State of Mississippi?
BY MR. McLENDON:
If the Court please, we are going to object to that
for the reason that it is the duty of the applicant for domes
tication to comply with the law and not the Attorney General
to tell him what the law is.
BY MR. REEVES:
May I be heard?
BY THE COURT :
Yes .
BY MR. REEVES:
It is our position as Your Honor of course realizes
we have been denied domestication. The Attorney General now
J. T. Patterson, Cr.
328 .J. T. Patterson, C r .
advises that as he is required to do under the statute he
examined the submission made and made the determination as
he states in his letter that under the laws of the State of
Mississippi the submission did not conform thereto. Now the
Attorney General is presently on the stand and doesn’t seem
to me there is no reason why we shouldn’t examine into it
and --- unable to understand counsel mumbling --- as to what
respects this application failed to conform because the deter
mination apparently is one which has been made by the Attorney
General and by no one else.
(T231) BY THE COURT :
I believe I will overrule that objection. I think
he is entitled to know the reason that prompted the Attorney
General to render the opinion to the Governor.
A Rephrase your question.
BY M R . REEVES:
Q Question was will you amplify the statement in
your letter to the Governor that based upon my examination
of the charter and the current statutes it is my opinion that
the application for domestication is not authorized to be
approved by your office. Other words what specific what
specific basis specific statute of --- unable to understand
counsel mumbling -- did you base that opinion?
A In dealing with this particular application for
329 .J. T. Patterson, Cr.
domestication I was acting under the authority of Section
5310.1 of the Oode of 1942 which appears in the supplement
to the Code.
Q I wonder if you could properly --- unable to under
stand counsel mumbling --- the provision of that section?
A Which provides as follows: Upon receipt of fore
going application from Secretary of State the Attorney General
or his assistants at his direction may in his discretion make
such investigation as he may deem necessary to determine in
his opinion whether the issuance of the charter to the corpora
tion as applied for is contrary to the best interest of the
(T232) State of Mississippi and the applicants and all persons inter
ested in such application shall cooperate with the Attorney
General and thereupon should he be of the opinion that the
issuance of the charter as applied for is not to the best
interest of the State of Mississippi even though the applica
tion on its face is not violative of the Constitution or laws
of the State of Mississippi he shall prepare and submit to
the Governor of the State of Mississippi his opinion why the
issuance of such charter would not be to the best interest of
the State of Mississippi and which shall be by separate docu
ment accompanying the application. The Attorney General shall
not be liable officially or individually for libel, slander
or any other action in anyway because of such opinion or its
J. T. Patterson, Cr 330 .
(T233 )
contents or in connection therewith. That’s closing the
reading from the Code. There are other provisions that’s
out of context of that section you might say.
Q I understand then that uh this letter of January
29th that you read in which you state that uh it’s your
opinion the application for domestication is not authorized
to be approved by the Governor’s office was pursuant to your
action under the statutory provisions to which you have just
referred?
A That’s right. I did not deem it to the best
interest of the State of Mississippi.
Q Well, now under that statute as you read it it
provides for the submission of an opinion to the Governor as
a separate document. Did you submit such an opinion sir?
A No, I did not. I merely submitted the letter.
Q Well, now can you tell us since you did not submit
such an opinion in compliance with the statute on what basis
you made the determination?
BY MR. McLENDON:
If the Court please, we object.
■y
BY MR. REEVES:
Let me finish my question please.
Q On what basis you made the determination that the
domestication of this corporation would not be to the best
J. T. Patterson, Cr. 331 .
interest of the State of Mississippi.
BY MR. McLENDON:
If the Court please, we object to the question for
the reason that he has testified that he made the determina
tion or the determination was made by his office and the
record shows it was made by one of the assistants and that he
made it in the exercise of his discretion as Attorney General
of the State of Mississippi and it is not as an officer of
the State and certainly he is being sued as an officer but we
register our objection because he stated it was his opinion
and that we think is sufficient.
BY M R . REEVES :
If Your Honor please, I think whereas the letter
recognizes that we recognize the exercise of discretion but
discretion by a state officer may not be arbitrary discretion.
(T234) The only way we have of determining in this instance as to
whether it is or is not arbitrary discretion is to determine
the exact and specific reasons it was exercised. This is
the officer who exercised it. He purports to have exercised
it pursuant to a particular state statute which by his own
admission he did not specifically comply with and the only
way we can and the only way we will know as to the basis on
which it was determined that this corporation should not or
that the domestication of this corporation would not be in
the best interest of the State in the opinion of this officer
is by examining the basis on which he made that opinion.
BY THE COURT :
I think I will sustain the objection to that ques
tion. He specified he based it upon that statute and then
it’s up to the Governor as to whether he will follow that or
not. The things which prompted him on which to form his
judgment and it was in his discretion it was not to the best
interest would be irrelevant to the issues involved in the
present case. I will sustain the objection to that question.
BY M R . REEVES :
Q May I ask did you in your examination of the
articles of incorporation of charter and submission made by
plaintiff corporation uh make a determination that any of
those submissions in anywise violated any provision of the
constitutional laws of the State of Mississippi?
(T235) BY MR. McLENDON:
If the Court please, the record the opinion that
he wrote was that it did and did not comply with the laws
and we submit that the record speaks for itself and we there
fore object to him being required to answer that question.
BY THE COURT:
J. T, Patterson, Cr. 332.
Now what was the purport of that question?
(T236)
BY MR. REEVES:
The purport was whether or not he made a determina
tion in his examination of this charter uh under the law of
the State of Mississippi that the charter in anywise violated
any law the Constitution or any law of the State and I might
say that question, if Your Honor please, on the provisions
of Section 5340 of the Mississippi Code which provided in
part that if the Attorney General shall certify to the Gover
nor that he finds nothing in said charter or articles of
incorporation that are violative of the constitutional laws
of the State the Governor of the State may approve the same.
Now he has in this instance merely stated an opinion that the
application is not authorized to be approved by your office.
Your Honor has foreclosed our inquiries as to the basis of
this general opinion, I am trying to find out what in his
specific opinion.
BY THE COURT :
The question is whether or not he took into con
sideration whether it violated any of the provisions of the
Constitution of the State of Mississippi or was it in com
pliance. I will overrule the objection.
A Restate your question please.
BY MR. REEVES :
Q In your examination of the charter and articles of
J. T. Patterson, Gr. 333.
incorporation of the plaintiff corporation did you determine
that it did or did not violate the Constitution or laws of
the State of Mississippi in any particular?
A Only to the extent that I determined that it was
not to the best interest of the State of Mississippi that the
NAACP be domesticated to do business in the state.
Q Now I don’t believe that’s responsive to my ques
tion. Uh the question is did you determine that it violated
any provision any specific provision of the Constitution or
laws of the State?
A Except to one extent, further extent dealing with
non-profit non-share corporations Subsection 1 of Section
5310.1 which provides among other things that three members
of all of whom shall be adult resident citizens of the State
of Mississippi authorized by any of said organizations in its
minutes to apply for the charter that deals with granting of
charters to non-profit non-share corporations.
Q Do I understand that you made an investigation and
determined that this application did not comply with that pro
vision of the charter?
A It does not comply on its face. Your certified
copy of your charter of incorporation shows it to be a New
York non-profit corporation, the incorporators all being
J. T. Patterson, Cr. 334.
residents of the State of New York or some other state close
J. T. Patterson, Cr 335 .
to the reby.
Q Do I understand you to be saying sir that this
section of the statute to which you are referring applies
to foreign corporations seeking domestication? In other
words a foreign corporation seeking domestication?
A That has always been our position that a foreign
corporation certainly must comply with our own laws to be
entitled to domestication.
Q I want to be sure I understand that includes then
a requirement that the foreign corporation seeking domestica
tion must include three residents of the State of Mississippi
in its uh board of directors?
A That’s right .
Q And this you base on Section 5301.1?
A That’s right, and bear in mind that was only one
reason for my recommendation.
Q Are you prepared to give us any other reason
sp ecifically?
A I didn’t think it to the best interest of the
State of Mississippi as authorized by the statute?
Q Then those are the only two reasons?
A That is correct.
Q Now did you subsequent to your letter of January
29, 1963 prepare or submit any memoranda or other documentatio
for your opinion to the Governor?
BY MR. McLENDON:
We object to that, Your Honor. He has already
answered it .
BY THE COURT:
Overrule your objection.
A I did not .
BY MR. REEVES:
Q Did you subsequent to January 29, 1963 discuss
with the Governor the basis for your opinion in this instance?
A I would have to answer that by saying I may or I
may not have. I confer with the Governor quite often. It’s
possible that I did and then on the other hand it’s possible
that I did not.
Q To be more specific sir have you since the filing
of the complaint in this action discussed with the Governor
the domestication of this corporation?
A No, I didn’t discuss with him domestication of the
corporati on.
Q Were you advised prior to the Governor’s letter of
June 17th, 1963 that it was his intention to deny domestica
tion of this corporation?
A No, I stood on my letter of transmittal to him and
J. T. Patterson, Cr. 336.
it was a matter of discretion with him as to whether he acted
J. T. Patterson, Cr 337 .
in accordance with my recommendations or not.
Q Between the date of your letter of January 29,
1963 and the Governor’s letter of June 17, 1963 acting upon
this application you were not advised of the action that the
Governor intended to take.
A The Governor was not called upon to advise me of
the action that he took.
Q Whether called upon or not did he advise you?
That’s the question sir.
A I don’t recall that he did, I made my recommenda
tion and after I transmitted it to him with my recommendation
it became a matter of executive discretion with him as to
what action he saw fit to take.
Q Now when you appeared in the Jackson Division of
this Court uh last Saturday, a week ago Saturday or a week
ago this past Monday were you at that time advised that the
Governor intended and would act within any reasonable period
of time upon this application since there had been no action
since January of ’63?
A No.
Q You did not anticipate that?
A I did not know.
Q May I direct your attention to Section 4065.3 of
the Code of Mississippi which in effect requires all State
J . T . Patterson, Cr. 338.
officers to utilize their office to maintain segregation of
the races in the State of Mississippi and ask you sir if that
was a factor in your determination that the application of the
domestication of the plaintiff corporation would not be in the
best interest of the State of Mississippi?
BY MR. McLENDON:
If the Court please, we object to him being
required to answer that question for the reason (l) he has
stated what his reasons were; (2) there is no integration or
segregation issue involved in this case, it’s a matter of
corporate law dealing with the right of this plaintiff corpo
ration to compel the State of Mississippi to domesticate it
or approve its application for domestication and segregation
or integration simply does not enter into it.
BY THE COURT:
I will overrule the objection.
BY MR . REEVES:
Thank you.
A If that statute was a factor in arriving at the
determination that I made?
Q That’s right sir.
A It was not.
Q May I ask another question then sir. Are you
familiar and I assume you are since you reviewed it with the
339 .J . T . Patterson, Cr .
statement of the purposes of the National Association for the
Advancement of Colored People?
A Yes, I read your charter. Frankly, I have read it
two or three times.
Q And you are familiar with the fact that the purpose
for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored
People as set forth in its charter are to aid and assist and
to develop the citizenship rights of negro citizens of the
United States without segregation and discrimination, are you
aware of that sir?
A Yes.
Q Now can you tell us whether that fact was a factor
in your decision to recommend against the granting of domes
tication to this corporation as being not in the best interest
of the State of Mississippi?
BY MR. McLENDON:
If the Court please, we would like to register the
same objection. He has already testified reasons he gave and
I don’t think the Court wants to indulge him going into
every statute.
BY THE COURT:
Well, I will overrule that objection, it goes to
the same thing that in other words whether it was any dis
crimination and that’s what he is driving at so I will let him
J. T. Patterson, Cr. 340 .
go into it a reasonable length, I will overrule that objec
tion.
BY MR. REEVES:
Thank you sir.
BY THE COURT:
You remember the question, General?
A I would like to have the question restated when
the stenographer can please.
BY THE REPORTER:
"Now can you tell us whether that fact was a fac
tor in your decision to recommend against the granting of
domestication to this corporation as being not in the best
interest of the State of Mississippi?"
A My observation and experinence with the NAACP
which now covers about fourteen years led me convinced me
that it is not to the best interest that the NAACP be domes
ticated authorized to do business within the State of Missis
sippi. I have found that the NAACP like a good many organi
zations of that kind do not stick to the stated purposes of
their corporate charter but go far beyond what their stated
objectives and purposes is. For instance, your charter says
nothing about the method in which the NAACP will employ in
attempting to attain their objectives, it says nothing about
promoting riotous parades and disorders, inflammatory speeches,
J. T. Patterson, Cr 341.
meetings and things of that kind that they do indulge in none
of which is referred to of course in the charter of incorpora
tion. That’s the reason I said it was not to the best inter-
(T243) est of the State of Mississippi for this organization to have
the stamp of approval of the State of Mississippi placed upon
it .
BY MR. REEVES:
Now then in terms of these specifics which you
have now indicated one you it was your conclusion based upon
this fourteen years merely of observation?
A Observation and experience in dealing with the
NAACP at times.
Q And that that was one of the things that you took
into consideration in arriving at your opinion?
A Just one, yes. There are many others.
Q Let’s take them, let’s examine them, will you take
this one specifically what observation or experience you had
with the NAACP over this fourteen years which led you to the
conclusion that the NAACP has had as one of its purposes or
that the methods of the NAACP were in conflict with the best
interest of the State of Mississippi specifically.
BY THE COURT:
I believe, counsel, you have gone into that far
enough now and unduly prolonging the trial of the case to go
342 .
further. He has given you the basis of why he made the
recommendation that he did and I think that’s sufficient so
you have gone into that far enough.
BY MR. McLENDON:
Thank you, Your Honor. We were about to interpose
our objection.
BY M R . REEVES:
Q May I ask this question, Mr. Attorney General,
within the period since you have been Attorney General can
you tell us the number of foreign corporations upon whose
application you have passed for domestication?
BY MR. McLENDON:
If the Court please, we object, we are dealing
with non-profit organizations.
BY MR. REEVES:
Non-profit membership corporations?
A I would not know.
Q Well, in the years —
A So far as I know not any. I just don’t know. We
keep no account of that in our office.
Q Would that, would your answer be the same if I
asked during the period since December, 1962 and to date have
you had occasion to pass upon or to render an opinion to the
Governor upon the application of any other non-profit member-
J. T. Patterson, Cr.
343 .
ship corporation seeking domestication in the State of
Missis sippi ?
A I don’t think we have. I don’t know of it if we
have.
Q Within your recollection do you know of any other
non-profit membership corporation that has applied and been
refused domestication? Now if Your Honor please, I don’t
know about this business of coaching the witness while he is
testifying on the stand.
A May I state to the Court it’s not a matter of
coaching. Mr. McLendon handles —
BY THE COURT:
I will let Mr. McLendon remind him of anything or
you can call Mr. McLendon. It’s very apparent here Mr.
McLendon handled all this matter, the Assistant Attorney
General, and in order to expedite the trial I think it’s not
improper for him to advise him but if you object to it why
then Mr. McLendon why you can just keep your seat and General
Patterson if you don’t know or don’t remember you can just
say so and that ends it.
A It’s not a matter of coaching because it’s
strictly a matter of fact, Your Honor, and whatever Mr.
McLendon states with reference to that certainly I would
state as a fact myself and I thought we were saving time.
J. T. Patterson, Cr.
(T246)
BY MR. REEVES:
I have no objection just so I can hear it.
A So often when corporate charters come to the office
many times I am out of the office, lot of times even when I
am in they are referred directly to Mr. McLendon and frankly
I don’t even see them so so far as I know none have been
approved, it may be that there have been some and Mr.
McLendon is available here if you want to examine him in that
respect .
J. T. Patterson, Cr. 344.
BY MR. REEVES:
All right sir. Excuse me just a moment. I would
excuse this witness if Your Honor please and would like to
call Mr. McLendon.
BY GENERAL PATTERSON:
I would like to make one further statement in addi
tion to a question I was asked a little while ago on best
interest in my fourteen years in dealing with the NAACP in
that I have seen them come in and promote and stir up liti
gation and at times strife and disorder when it was wholly
uncalled for and I don’t think that an out of state corpora
tion guilty of such that it is to the best interest of the
State of Mississippi that they have the stamp of approval of
the State by granting to them a license you might say to do
business in the state.
M. L, McLendon, Cr 345 .
BY MR. REEVES:
Now Your Honor please, I am at a disadvantage.
Your Honor has foreclosed my inquiry into the specific basis
upon which the Attorney General is stating his general con
clusion and if that is to be foreclosed then I would respect
fully move that this portion of his answer be stricken because
obviously we are left defenseless against such a general
allegation as that.
BY THE COURT:
Yes, it was a voluntary statement so I will sus
tain the motion to exclude i t .
(T247) BY MR. REEVES:
Thank you sir.
(Witness excused.)
HONORABLE MARTIN R. McLENDON called as a witness
for and on behalf of Plaintiffs, was sworn and testified as
follows :
BY MR. REEVES:
Q Mr. McLendon, as I, state your name for the record?
A Martin R. McLendon.
Q And your official position of the State of Missis
sippi?
A I am an Assistant Attorney General.
Q And for how long have you been such?
A Seven and one half years.
Q And is it correct that one of your particular
duties is the handling of corporate corporate corporate
applications for domestication in the Attorney General’s
o f f i c e ?
A That is one of my duties, yes.
Q Are you able to tell us sir over what period since
you have been since that has been one of your duties how many
applications you have had for domestication by foreign non
profit corporations?
A If I may preface that by I took the corporation as
one of my assignments in 1958 in March of that year and to
my own certain knowledge I don’t know the exact number of
foreign non-profit corporations who have sought domestication.
I do know for a fact and I can testify positively that since
that date none have been approved or recommended approval to
the Governor’s office by us.
Q Could you estimate the number sir?
A Frankly I don’t know.
Q Now you say that none have been recommended by
your office for approval?
A That’s right .
Q Would you be able to state whether any were approved
M. R. McLendon, Cr . 346.
by the Governor?
Mo R. McLendon, Cr 347 .
A Uh all I can say in that regard is that the
Governor most usually takes our recommendation on that.
I haven’t gone back to check but I do know recall specifi
cally a Florida non-profit was rejected and another New York
non-profit was rejected in that time but I don’t recall
specifically because it was my interpretation of the statute
at that time that all non-profit foreign non-profit charter
applications by usually could not comply with the provision
of Mississippi law at that time as was earlier discussed
with Mr. Patterson.
Q Now in connection with this particular application
the application of the plaintiff corporation NAACP did you
participate in the processing of that application?
A The opinion that Mr. Patterson read was written
by me, yes.
Q Are you then the officer in the Attorney General’s
office who made whatever investigation was made of the charter
and the laws and interests of the State of Mississippi and so
recommended this opinion to the Attorney General?
A Uh I am hesitant, Your Honor, because the matter
was discussed between the Attorney General and I but the
record shows that the recommendation was made to the Governor
and his question said my recommendations to the Attorney
General
348 .
Q My question was did you since you say you handled
it did you make a recommendation to the Attorney General
which was the basis of his action in making this recommenda
tion to the Governor?
A Yes.
Q And are you able to tell us specifically upon
what basis you concluded and therefore recommended to the
Attorney General that the domestication of this corporation
would not be in the best interest of the State of Mississippi?
A The Attorney General has gone into it and if you
want me to go into it further I will.
Q You indicated I believe that you did the —
unable to understand counsel mumbling---?
A As he explained to you Mississippi statute 5310.1
requires that all domestic non-profit corporations consist
of members who are residents of Mississippi and of course
that is the would apply to foreign corporations that applied
for domestication because under the theory we think it’s
sound that you can’t do indirectly what you cannot do
directly and in order for a corporation to take on a non-
profitor an association to take on a non-profit structure and
thereby would be entitled to tax and other advantages offered
by the State of Mississippi the legislature deemed it proper
that they should be resident.
Mi R. McLendon, Cr.
Q That’s one reason. Now were there other reasons
involved in your recommendation to the Attorney General sir?
A I personally had no other reasons, no.
Q You had no other reasons?
»
BY MR. REEVES:
I have no further questions of this witness.
(Witness excused.)
M. R. McLendon, Cr. 349.
BY THE COURT:
Anything further?
BY MR. REEVES:
we have no further evidence.
(Plaintiffs Rest.)
BY THE COURT :
Any testimony by the Defendants?
(At which time Court recessed at 11:13 A.M. for five
minutes .)
BY MR. McLENDON:
Your Honor, before we go forth may we ask the
plaintiffs if they have finished with Mr. Ladner, they sub
poenaed him as a witness.
(T251) BY MR. REEVES :
Oh yes, Mr. Ladner is excused. I am sorry.
BY MR. McLENDON:
If the Court please, we offer Mr. Ladner’s
350
affidavit as to the records in his office concerning the
case presently pending before the Court. We think it’s
in admissible form as an official certification certificate
and affidavit as an official.
BY THE COURT :
Very well, let it be marked and received in
evidence.
(Received and marked Exhibit D-l)
BY MR. McLENDON:
Let the record show with that introduction the
defendants rest on the motion for preliminary injunction.
(Defendants Rest.)
BY THE COURT:
Anything in rebuttal?
BY MR . REEVES :
No sir.
BY THE COURT:
Very well, gentlemen, you can proceed. Gentlemen,
I suggest you take fifteen minutes to the side in argument
and then I am going to let you submit briefs within the next
few days such reasonable time as you want to because I may
want to wait and see what the Court of Appeals does Wednes-
(T252) day with the appeal on Count One. Certainly I am not going
to decide the case before that time but if you think fifteen
351.
minutes to the side will be sufficient to state your posi
tion and make your argument and then give me if you don’t
want to write a brief just give me the citations of your
authorities would be sufficient. Very well.
BY MR. REEVES:
The factual basis for this motion is set forth in
so far as the plaintiffs are concerned in their verified
complaint, specifically Count Two thereof and the affidavits
and the testimony that has been received by the Court.
Although we indicated at the outset that Count One was not
at issue for purposes of these proceedings we do submit that
the record as made in Count One uh does have a bearing uh in
the establishment for our purposes is what we say is the
climate or background of uh action state action uh in this
situation upon which Count Two is based and as Your Honor
will note we reassert and reallege for purposes of Count
Two those allegations. Now the new circumstances which has
come into this case since the filing both of the complaint
and the motion is the action by the State of Mississippi
through its Governor in denying the application for domes
tication, however and we would like to point out to the
Court that that application filed in December, 1962 acted
upon by the Attorney General according to his testimony
(t253) today in January of 1963 was not acted upon finally by the
352 .
Governor of the State until after this action was commenced
and contrary to the suggestion that all that we were seeking
by way of relief in that particular regard was that action
be taken I would point to the prayers of the compalint it
self in which we ask that the plaintiff, that the defendant
or these defendants be restrained from refusing to register
the plaintiff corporation as duly qualified to do business
in the State of Mississippi so that although at the time we
filed the complaint we were not in a position to know what
action the State of Mississippi had taken, contemplated
taking or would take we asked for relief against their
doing that which they have done; namely, denying us domes
tication and we further of course ask that they be restrained
from taking any action in the courts of the United States or
the State of Mississippi to enjoin or bar us from that is
the plaintiff corporation from conducting its business or
from pursuing their lawful objectives within the State of
Mississippi including the encouragement, organization and
participation in demonstrations and activities designed to
end racial segregation in Jackson, Mississippi. Now as the
compalint, verified complaint, the affidavits and the evi
dence which has been adduced both at Jackson and here as
demonstrated it is our position that the State of Mississippi
acting by and through various officers including both officers
353 .
on the state-wide basis as well as local officers in Jackson
have sought and have effectively precluded and prevented the
(T254) plaintiff corporation, its members and those of the class
with which it identifies from pursuing we submit lawful
objectives within the State of Mississippi designed and
directed toward the end of racial discrimination and segre
gation within the state and thus we would submit within
particular relatioship here as it relates to Count Two that
the denial of domestication to the corporation which in
effect would serve to preclude the corporation from con
tinuing its program and activities in Mississippi is in
furtherance and is in pursuance of this general plan and
general uh pattern of action on the part of officials of
the State of Mississippi to violate the constitutional
rights of the plaintiff corporation and its members by
denying them the opportunity and the right we submit to
proceed to carry out their lawful objectives. Now there has
been introduced in this the element today that the State
acting through the Governor and allegedly pursuant to the
laws of Mississippi has denied the application to domesti
cate. We do not have and the Court does not have the bene
fit of the specific reasons or basis upon which the Governor
exercised his statutory discretion other than as may be
reflected in the testimony which has been adduced here today
354 .
by the Attorney General and his assistant as to the basis
of their recommendation to him that he deny the application
but I would point out to the Court I think this is signifi
cant that there is no evidence that has been adduced in
behalf of the State or the Attorney General to indicate any-
(T255) thing at all contrary to what we set forth in our petition
and I would submit to the Court that in order to domesticate
in the State of Mississippi insofar as the law heretofore has
been explained or stated or suggested by the appropriate
officials of the State of Mississippi it was necessary that
a corporation comply with Sections 5339, 5340 and 5341 of
the Mississippi Code of 1942 and we submit that there has
been no evidence indicating that this corporation did not
comply with those three sections. The fact that it is now
alleged and/or testified to by the Attorney General and by
his assistant that there was a failure of compliance with
Section 5310 of the Code of Mississippi providing that as
they say that a foreign corporation seeking domestication
must include on its board of directors at least three resi
dents of the State of Mississippi I say sir that one this
is not a requirement of which this corporation and in so
far as the evidence in this case is concerned any corporation
has ever been informed or advised that the particular statu
tory provision to which reference is made specifically applies
355 .
to non-profit domestic corporations and according to the
testimony here today, Your Honor, will recall in so far as
these officers of the State can recall there has not been
a similar denial on this basis to a non-profit corporation
seeking to be domesticated in the State of Mississippi. We
would submit that even assuming their interpretation of the
Mississippi statutes that a domestic or a foreign corpora—
(T256) tion seeking domestication must comply with all of the
statutory provisions applicable to uh domestic corporations
that we submit that that provision as applied to this corpora
tion and to other non-profit foreign corporations unless
specifically provided in the statutes providing for domesti
cation could not and would not be applicable or properly
applicable consistent with the provisions of the 14th amend
ment as to due process and its protection. We would say
further that the reason given by the Attorney General for
his recommendation to the Governor which as I said in so far
as this record is concerned represents the only basis upon
which we can determine why the application for domestication
was denied includes and we submit the last answers of the
Attorney General to questions put to him on direct examina
tion makes clear that the determination of the Attorney
General that the domestication of this corporation would not
be in the best interest of the State of Mississippi is related
3 56 .
to and is in fact based upon his conclusion that the pur
poses and objectives of this corporation are in so far as
he is concerned and in so far as they serve as a basis for
his recommendation not in the best interest of the State of
Mississippi so that I think that the real inkling in this
case is as to those purposes as they appear on the record
because I would submit that the Court could not merely on
his opinion and without any factual basis upon which he
reached that opinion other than his statement of his observa
tion uh make a conclusion or examine his conclusion you
(T257) would have to examine it on the record as appears here and
the record as appears here is in the charter and the articles
of incorporation as submitted of the corporation as submitted
with the affidavit which Your Honor has just been handed and
which purposes as set forth in the charter and I refer now
to the certificate of incorporation which specifically as
was stated to seek by lawful means to improve the status
and position of negroes in the United States and in the
State of Mississippi against racial discrimination and segre
gation so that we cannot say that in this case we are dealing
solely and only with a matter of corporate law because our
theory of the case and our basis for bringing this action
is that the corporate laws as we submit and contend in Count
One of this complaint as to other laws in the State of
357 .
Mississippi are being used to frustrate these plaintiffs in
carrying out legitimate constitutional protected uh objec
tives in the State of Mississippi.
BY THE COURT:
Suppose some non-profit foreign corporation call
it whatever you want to, well, call it the Citizen’s Council,
suppose a citizens council foreign corporation was to be
formed and its purposes were to raise money and to employ
counsel and to investigate and to oppose lawfully and legally
the fights that are being made by NAACP and others that are
similarly situated and to investigate CORE and all those and
(T258) lawfully and legally and peacefully and its purpose was to
raise funds so as to oppose that organization and should file
three citizens of Mississippi jointly on it and come in here
and present that the Attorney General should say to the
Governor on the face of it why its lawful and on the face
of it it conforms to the constitution yet its not to the best
interest of Mississippi. Would the Governor be justified in
turning down a charter like that?
BY MR. REEVES:
Well, I will have to answer that two ways. I
don’t mean to evade a direct answer. As we read the section
under which the Governor acts uh referring now to Section
5340 of the Code it provides that after a copy or authenticated
358 .
copy of the charter and articles of incorporation has been
filed with the Governor and nowhere in these sections is
there any reference to compliance to 5310 the latter shall
take the advice of the Attorney General as to the legality
and constitutionality of the articles of incorporation and
if the Attorney General shall certify to the Governor that
he finds nothing in said charter or articles of incorporation
or association that are violative of the constitution or laws
of this State the Governor may approve same. The Governor
may require amendments or alterations or if deemed expedient
by him he may withhold his approval entirely. Now to reach
the question that you have posed we would have engraft upon
(T259) the statute as it is written this additional reason best
interest .
BY THE COURT :
Here is the next question in my mind. He is given
discretion and it doesn’t say he shall do it. Of course cer
tainly he could not discriminate and I am assuming that there
is no discrimination but he just decided it wouldn’t be for
the best interest of the State and exercised discretion to
withhold approval. Now how far does the law go in compelling
him to exercise discretion contrary to what he believes and
finds wouldn’t be to the best interest of the State?
BY MR . REEVES :
359 .
This is what I am saying sir that certainly the
principle that any statutory provision must have some deter
minable standards other words otherwise the statute I would
submit would be subject to attack for vagueness. I submit
that this statute does provide standards and those standards
does not include the vague standard which Your Honor is sug
gesting or which the Attorney General says is the standard
on which he acted, namely; the best interest of the State.
BY THE COURT:
In other words your reply to me would be that he
would have to approve that --
BY MR. REEVES:
(Int erruot ing) I would say sir that unless he could
find within the framework of this statute that that charter or
(1260) articles of incorporation were violative of the Constitution
or laws of the State, not as I said this vague standard of
best interest of the State, or unless he was prepared, now I
would take one step further, if he were prepared the Governor
or the Attorney General to relate this statement of best
interest to some measurable or specific and determinable
fact but to leave it at this subjective area which as I
says devise as Your H0nor undoubtedly observed here defies
the effort of the person affected to determine why, how, in
what particular, in what respect it failed to meet the standard
360 .
as prescribed by the State. I say that such a statute if
its to be interpreted and applied as the Governor of Missis
sippi has applied it in this instance would be vague, would
be so vague that it would be in and of itself violative of
due process .
BY THE COURT:
Very well. Let me hear from the Attorney General
briefly now and I will let you brief it as full as you want
to and when we get through here we will discuss how soon the
briefs will be filed.
BY MR. McLENDON:
If the Court please, we would like first to clear
up some misstatements of or obviously errors made on the
part of counsel for the plaintiffs. Mississippi statute
does not require that three directors of a corporation be
residents of Mississippi. The statute requires that all
(T261) incorporators be adult resident citizens of the State of
Mississippi and that is very similar to a New York statute
under which this plaintiff corporation was formed and another
mistake I would like to clear up there is no evidence he says
of any being rejected. If I recall correctly I stated posi
tively and unequivocably that no foreign non-profit corpora
tion had met the approval of the Attorney General’s office
since March, 1958 when I started examining corporate charters.
361.
I recall specifically rejecting some and having some rather
heated correspondence from counsel from the other states.
As I say that is we think a statutory requirement, we think
it is within the legal right. The statute of course that’s
been referred to it provides for a domestication procedure.
I might add that none other than Mississippi Power and Light
Company, a foreign corporation for profit, has followed this
procedure within the last six months and has been approved.
Of course it applies equally as well to profit and non-profit
corporations. The statute provides procedure that has been
discussed previously, it provides what will be done which has
been gone into. Now then the statute says after it authorises
the Governor to approve the application for domestication "or
if deemed expedient by him he may withhold his approval
entirelyn . Now that’s the authority of the Governor of the
State of Mississippi which is the authority of the State of
Mississippi in dealing with corporations. Now that is exactly
(T262) what has been done. Now the counsel seem to make some vague
point on the fact that none of the allegations of part 1 had
been denied. We submit the time for answer has not passed
and we certainly intend to meet that issue at the proper
time but this issue here case right now is on an application
for preliminary injunction which would necessarily based on
what he asks for even had the Governor not acted as he did
362 .
would necessarily require a mandatory injunction of the
Governor. It would require him this Court orders you to
approve the application for domestication. That is what it
would require. That is the ultimate relief that they seek
and we submit it is not a proper subject for preliminary
injunction. We uh of course the Court of Appeals has had
opportunity to speak recently on granting the entire relief
in a preliminary injunction and I feel sure the Court is
familiar with that case so I won’t discuss the facts of it
but its Miami Beach Federal Savings and Loan vs. Fallen uh
reading from the case "The judgment afforded appears to pro
vide the plaintiff with practically all of the relief if not
more than they sought on the merits in granting the stock
holders the right to fill vacancies of the board of directors
occurring between annual meetings — unable to understand
counsel.— ” It goes on to say it further restrains a public
I mean an agency of the United States from exercising its
statutory function merely on unproved and vague allegations
that representatives of the agency acted improperly and it
adjudicates rights of and enjoins persons not even parties
(T263) to the litigation. A mandatory injunction of this nature
especially at the preliminary stage of proceedings should
not be granted except in rare instances where the facts and
law are clearly in favor of the moving party. Now there is
363 .
no dispute as to the facts the State of Mississippi acting
in its sovereign capacity has rejected this application for
domestication so there can’t be any dispute of fact but
there is I assume going to be a very clear dispute of law.
This of course this particular case was a legal dispute too.
Here the dispute concerns the proper interpretation of
Section 5 of the charter, that’s an interpretation of the
charter of this corporation. The defendants have even
offered to submit proof — unable to understand counsel---.
This issue should be resolved before an injunction is issued
and in this case we have already submitted an established
practice on the part of the State of Mississippi extending
over a period of years that all corporations domestic and
foreign must be incorporated by residents of the State. We
think that is a constitutional valid restriction. The Court
goes on to say we have repeatedly held in order for a prelimi
nary injunction --- unable to understand counsel --- does not
and cannot decide the merits of the case. There was one
Court of Appeals case from the Fifth Circuit and two from
the Fifth Circuit. So we submit here, Your Honor, the first
and the most we think one of the most serious issues to be
decided by the Court is the initial jurisdiction of the Court.
(T264) We think that the 11th amendment of the constitution uh pro
hibits this Court from exercising jurisdiction over the State
of Mississippi because of what they seek this court to order
is a relinquishment or a performance of a sovereign right.
We think that certainly deserves exploring before the Court
considers entering any preliminary injunction which would
effectively afford them all the relief that they seek. Cer
tainly we are not in a position to urge it here now but we
merely point out that that is we think a vital concern to
the Court and will be when this case is gone into. We
recognize the divergent rulings of the Supreme Court on it
but the constitutional provision still stand and it stands
as having been interpreted that when the officer has no
personal interest and if he acts his act is not uh if he
acts in an official capacity as an officer of the State of
Mississippi it has a direct effect on the state and not on
that officer he of course cannot be pecuniarily liable and
of course the Federal Courts do not have jurisdiction of him
to order him to act otherwise. Of course there are numerous
cases on it. With the Court’s permission I will read
excerpts from uh from the case dealing with Great Northern
Life Insurance Company vs. Reid.
BY THE COURT:
Well, I believe, Mr. McLendon, I will let you file
a brief on those and I will read them. We have got such
limited time here and I can really and truly get more out of
365 .
(T265) it a decision or authority when I read it myself than I can
when attorneys quote it to me. I have got to get it down
and underscore certain phases of it so if it suits you I
will let you gentlemen submit it on briefs. Now how much
time you want to file your brief?
BY MR. REEVES:
Let me here again refer to the fact, Your Honor,
in light of the action taken by the State since this motion
was filed we are placed in the position any delay in the
decision of this issue places us in jeopardy unless the
state is willing to grant stay or the Court to impose a
stay until such time as you are able to reach a decision so
we would make it instanta if Your Honor would say so.
BY THE COURT:
Do you have a written brief already?
BY MR . REEVES :
We do not have a memorandum because we simply did
not anticipate the issue that has now arisen.
BY THE COURT:
Well, if you will get me up a brief I will cer
tainly get to work on it right away without delay.
BY MR. REEVES:
You appreciate our position we don’t want to
nt.
366 .
shorten the time for the other side or for ourselves but we
are now under the hammer where uh until some action is taken
(T266) by this Court we are without protection in view of the denial
of our application for domestication.
BY THE COURT :
Well, how long do you think you could, how soon
do you think you could get me your brief?
BY MR. REEVES:
If we could have---
BY THE COURT:
If you want to you can make it a letter form if
you want to. What I want is authorities as near applicable
as you can get them and any point that’s well settled you
needn’t cite a hundred authorities on that but the contro
versial ones cite me some authorities the nearest in point
upon which you rely and as many as you think reasonably
necessary and I will get right to work on it.
BY MR . REEVES :
I would like to suggest under the circumstances
Friday of this week in the light we have two other briefs
I believe as you know that are due before this Court before
the Fifth Circuit.
367 .
(T267)
BY THE COURT:
You think you will have yours in by Friday of this
week, today is Monday and now then can you have yours within
five days after you receive his?
BY MR. McLENDON:
We can try, Your Honor.
BY THE COURT:
Well, you can write your argument and your
authorities now, I mean you don’t have to wait until you get
his when you have time and then of course you can within
that five days period after you receive his why you can---
BY MR. McLENDON:
Did I understand that five day period would be
the following Friday, that’s five working days or does the
Court want it to run continuously?
BY THE COURT :
Well, let’s say you might make it Thursday of that
week.
BY MR. REEVES:
May we understand, Your
days time which will now transpire
be able to consider this case that
Honor, in view of the ten
before Your Honor would
the plaintiff corporation
may have uh either by order of the Court or agreement of
counsel sort of a stay pending the action of this Court?
BY MR. McLENDON:
If the Court please, that is the issue.
BY THE COURT:
I want to do it after thorough consideration, I
want to rule on it the right way as soon as you get your
(T268) briefs in. Today is the 24th, you are going to have yours
in by the 28th of June and yours would be Friday, the 4th
of July is coming in there, you get me yours in by Friday.
BY M R . REEVES :
May I then say, Your Honor, without being able
to control any action on the part of the state that if
between now and the time Your Honor receives his brief
there should be any action by the state against the plain
tiff corporation we might have access to Your Honor on that
ba sis .
BY THE COURT:
Yes, you can have access to me or the Court of
Appeals or anywhere, I am not going to try to control your
a ct ions .
BY M R . REEVES :
368 .
As I said we are without relief until you act.
369 .
(T269)
BY THE COURT:
I understand so you can come to me anytime you
want to if the state takes any action that you think they
oughtn’t to, give them notice that you are coming to me
though because I am not going to sign anything or hear
anybody without notice to the other side even if its only
with three hours so with that understanding then I don’t
think it’s necessary since it is a matter of record and I
expect I will be doing some independent research on this
I am going to be studying the record so that I can rule
properly after I get your briefs in.
(Hearing concluded at 12:02 P.M., June 24, 1963.)
(The foregoing instrument carries proper Court
Reporter’s Certificate which is not copied here.)
(R464) (Title Omitted - FILED JAN 30 1964)
In accordance with this Court’s instructions at
the hearing on January 25, 1964, plaintiff, Rev. Ralph Edwin
King, hereby responds to the following questions propounded
by defendants on oral examination:
1. Q. What is your connection, if any, with the National
Association for the Advancement of Colored People?
A. I have no connection with the. NAACP through offi
cial office or membership.
2. Q. If you have any connection with them, how long has
it existed?
A.
3. Q. Does Tougaloo College maintain and support a
Chapter of the NAACP?
A Tougaloo College does not own or support any
organization to my knowledge. There has been a college
chapter of the NAACP on the campus as a student organi
zation similar to the social fraternities which are
independent organizations.
4. Q Are you active for Tougaloo College in its NAACP
Chapter?
A. No .
5. Q Is Dr. Beittel, the President of Tougaloo College,
370 .
active in its NAACP Chapter?
A.
(R465) 6. Q. What officials or professors of Tougaloo College
are active in the College’s NAACP Chapter?
A.
7. Q. Did you support personally any of the activities
of the Freedom Riders?
A. I am in sympathy with the attempts of people to
exercise their civil rights. While I was in Boston, I
made a contribution to help the Freedom Riders and
later, when in Jackson, Mississippi, I visited the
jails in behalf of other Ministers of Mississippi who
were concerned about the physical condition of those
individuals who had been arrested in the ’’so-called
freedom rides” .
8. Q. Did you personally support in 1963 racial demon
strations in the City of Jackson?
A. My participation in the protest activities against
segregation in Jackson in 1963 as set forth in the
deposition are herein.
9. Q. Would you tell me where those meetings took place?
A. Open meetings were held regularly in Negro churches
and in the Masonic Temple.
10. Q. Who else besides you would lead in these demonstra
371 .
tions?
372 .
(R466)
A. A number of people participated in advising persons
as to nonviolent activities. Those whom I remember were
Reverend James Allen, Boston, Massachusetts, David
Dennis, John Salter, Reverend Bruce McSpadden, Boston,
Massachusetts, Jesse Harris, George Raymond, Medgar
Evers.
11. Q. During the 1963 demonstrations in which you took any
part, who was making the decisions as to the course of
action to be followed?
A. Many issues were decided upon by the Negro community
who attended mass meetings in the evening and indicated
their desires. On some occasions persons such as Doris
Allison, many Negro ministers, David Dennis, John
Salter, Medgar Evers, discussed events and proposals
were evolved .
12. Q. What part, if any, did Tougaloo College play in
those decisions?
A . None .
13. Q. were the demonstrations ever called off in Jackson
or terminated?
A. I have no knowledge of this.
14. Q. Are you familiar with the movement to boycott all
stores on Capitol Street from State to Mill?
A . Yes
373 .
15. Q. Do you know who did prepare it?
A. I was not in Jackson, Mississippi when it was pre
pared.
16. Q. I call your attention to the fact that what I assume
to be the supporting organization shown on the bottom of
it include ’Tougaloo College NAACP Chapt.T Do you
recognize that as one of the pamphlets put out by the
Tougaloo College NAACP Chapter?
A. I was not in Jackson, Mississippi when it was pre
pared.
17. Q. Have you ever participated in the distribution of
that pamphlet?
A. I was not in Jackson, Mississippi when it was pre
pared.
18. Q. Have you participated in the preparation of this or
a similar pamphlet?
A. Yes. Several pamphlets were prepared encouraging
the Negro public and friends to participate in selective
buying because of courtesies which were not afforded
Negroes; inability of Negroes to use all facilities in
stores, and other discriminatory practices. The
"friends” were included because numerous persons called
anonymously identifying themselves as white and refusing
to give their names, who stated they supported the
374 .
(R467)
selective buying campaign because of the inequality
forced upon Negro citizens in Jackson.
19. Q. Have you distributed this or any similar pamphlet?
A. In April or May, I mailed several of the pamphlets
to white Christian ministers in town whose names were
taken from the telephone directory since I was sure they
would support the Christian aims of the program.
20. Q. ^id you ever become active in that movement?
A. In April or May, I mailed several of the pamphlets to
white Christian ministers in town whose names were taken
from the telephone directory since I was sure they would
support the Christian aims of the program.
21. Q. What is the North Jackson Youth Council of the NAACP?
A. As far as I know, its a Youth Council of the NAACP in
the North Jackson area.
22. Q. Are you a member of it?
A . No .
23. Q. Have you taken any public action in Jackson during
the year 1963 in furtherance of the statements contained
either in Exhibit A for Identification or this pamphlet
— bulletin — of the North Jackson Youth Council?
A . Yes .
24. Q. I hand you another pamphlet which is entitled at the
bottom ’JACKSON MOVEMENT’, and I will ask you whether you
375 .
(R468)
had anything to do with the preparation or distribution
of that pamphlet or any similar pamphlet?
A. In April or May, I mailed several of the pamphlets to
white Christian ministers in town whose names were taken
from the telephone directory since I was sure they would
support the Christian aims of the program.
25. Q. Have you ever seen it before?
A . Yes.
26. Q. Have you ever distributed it?
A. In April or May, I mailed several of the pamphlets to
white Christian ministers in town whose names were taken
from the telephone directory since I was sure they would
support the Christian aims of the program.
27. Q. Have you attempted any public action in furtherance
of the statements contained on it?
, A. The meetings have encouraged people to purchase where
they are accorded courtesies, able to use the facilities,
treated with respect, and given other privileges general
ly accorded only to white persons in Mississippi and in
Jackson.
28. Q. Has that pamphlet played any part in your activities
for Tougaloo College and the NAACP?
A. My activities for Tougaloo College consisted of being
Chaplain and Dean of Students. As I have stated before,
376 .
I am in sympathy with attempts to achieve Civil Rights
for Negroes by lawful means.
29. Q. Do you know why the stores on Capitol Street from
State Street to Mill Street were being boycotted as
indicated by Exhibits A, B and C?
A. As I stated before, Negroes were encouraged not to
purchase in those establishments which discriminated
against them in anyway, which did not accord them
courtesies, and other matters such as those set forth
in No. 27.
30. Q. Do you know whether there was any reason for it other
than those shown in those three exhibits?
A. I have set forth the reasons above, all of which had
to do with discrimination and segregation of Negroes or
other segregationist activities adverse to Negroes.
31. Q. Do you know anything about the internal management or
operation of any of those stores, particularly with
respect to their hiring of Negroes or their serving of
N egro e s?
A. Generally Negroes are not hired in other than menial
capacity jobs.
32. Q. Do you know that information about any stores on
Capitol Street between State and Mill?
A. Generally Negroes are not hired in other than menial
377 .
(R469)
capacity jobs.
33. Q. Why would you participate in the boycott of stores you
didnTt know anything about, either their practices,
policies of employment or otherwise?
A. Generally Negroes are not hired in other than menial
capacity jobs.
34. Q. I will ask you whether you attended a meeting which
began at 7:30 P . M. the night of May 21, 1963, at the
Pearl Street AME Church, located 925 West Pearl Street?
A. During the latter part of May and the early part of
June, I attended evening meetings, almost every night, I
do not remember specific meeting on specific dates, but
in all probability, I attended this one along with others.
35. Q. I want to ask you whether or not there was a group of
students from Tougaloo College also present at that
meeting?
A. Many people were present at the Mass Meetings in
cluding Tougaloo students who were there as individuals,
not representing the College, or with College authoriza
tion.
36. Q. I will ask you whether the President of Tougaloo, Dr.
Beittel, was present?
A. To my knowledge, Dr. Beittel was present at one meet
ing
378 .
37. Q. IsnTt it a fact that plans were made at that meeting
for public demonstrations in the City of Jackson?
A. The evening meetings which were held were Mass Meet
ings to protest discrimination and segregation of Negroes
in Jackson and Mississippi. Protest activities were
discussed in the course of the meetings, and statements
made to the effect that if civil rights were not accorded
to Negroes, they, with those who sympathize with them
would protest that segregation and discrimination in
whatever lawful forms were available to them.
38. Q. Isn’t it also a fact that Dr. Beittel made his
speech to those assembled at that meeting?
A. Dr. Beittel spoke at one of the meetings on behalf
of the Mississippi Council of Human Relations. He read
a letter from this organization and did not speak on
behalf of Tougaloo, but as an individual.
(R470) 39. Q. Are you willing to tell me anybody who spoke to
those assembled at that meeting?
A. Anybody I remember.
40. Q. Did John R. Salter speak?
A. John Salter and Medgar Evers spoke at most of the
meetings and probably at this one.
41. Q. Was Medgar Evers present at that meeting?
A. John Salter and Medgar Evers spoke at most of the
379 .
42.
43 .
44.
45.
46.
meetings and probably at this one.
Q. Then you are not willing to answer my questions with
respect to that meeting?
A. John Salter and Medgar Evers spoke at most of the
meetings and probably at this one.
Q. Were you present at a meeting held in the Pearl
Street AME Church in the 900 Block of West Pearl Street
at 9:30 A.M., May 29, 1963, at which plans were made for
public demonstrations in the City of Jackson?
A . See 34 .
Q. Who were any of the people who spoke at that meeting?
A . See 43 .
Q. Is it not a fact that plans were made at that meeting
for public demonstrations on the streets of Jackson,
Mississippi?
A . See 37.
Q. As I recall it, Reverend, in the early part of your
deposition, when I was asking you to tell me what part
you took in these demonstrations, you told me I would
have to ask you about specific times and places. Now,
I am doing that, giving you the time, place and the
meeting, and you are declining to answer. Am I to
gather that you are not going to tell me anything about
your participation in these demonstrations here today?
380 .
(R471)
A. No .
47. Q. I want to ask you if you were present at a meeting
held at 8:30 P»M., on May 29, 1963, at the Pearl Street
AME Church, at which plans were made for public demon
strations in the City of Jackson?
A . See 34 .
48. Q. Do you decline to give me any information with
respect to what part you took or anyone else took at
that meeting?
A. No .
49. Q. Was the campaign to boycott Capitol Street from State
to Mill discussed by one or more of the speakers at that
meet ing?
A. At most meetings Selective Buying on Capitol Street
was discussed by more than one of the speakers. I do
not remember which individuals spoke at what meeting.
50. Q. Were the persons in attendance at that meeting urged
to take violent action, if necessary, in the demonstra
tions in Jackson?
A. All participants in protest activities were always
cautioned to be non-violent. No one was advised to use
violence.
51. Q. Were you present at a meeting held at the Masonic
Temple, located at 1072 Lynch Street, on the night of
381.
(R472)
May 31, 1963?
A . See 34 .
52. Q. I am talking about meetings planning for demonstra
tions, to be just as specific as I know how.
A. (Not a question)
53. Q. You decline to tell me about any of those meetings?
A. No .
54. Q, At the meeting of May 31st I have just asked you
about, was Roy Wilkins, the Executive Secretary of the
NAACP, present?
A. Roy Wilkins attended one of the meetings. I do not
know which one, although it was probably on May 31, if
you indicate so.
55. Q. Did he make a talk to those assembled at that meet
ing?
A. Mr. Wilkins spoke at the meeting he attended.
56. Q. I will ask you whether at that meeting Roy Wilkins
made the public statement that the officials of the City
of Jackson were, and I quote, ’Just like Hitler, all they
need is an oven in there to bake you as Hitler did the
Jews’, close quote?
A. I recall a statement like that, or similar to that.
57. Q. Did Medgar Evers address that meeting?
A. Medgar Evers addressed most meetings.
382 .
58. Q. Were members of both races — I mean by that the
Caucasian and Negro races -- present at that meeting?
A. Yes. The police department of Jackson, Mississippi
seems to have sent one of their men to each of certain
meetings. Consequently, defendant is aware that both
races were present.
59. Q» Were those present urged to take violent actions on
the streets of the City of Jackson?
A . See 50 .
60. Q. Were you present at a meeting held at the Pearl
Street AME Church on the night of June 4, 1963?
A . See 34.
61. Q. was that a meeting held for the purpose of planning
demonstrations on the streets of the City of Jackson?
A. Meetings were held by individuals who were interested
in securing Civil Rights for Negroes. The purpose of
meetings was to bring these persons together so that they
could consult with one another, decide upon future
activities, and receive general information as to the
progress of attempts to petition the government to do
away with segregation and discriminatory practices toward
Negro citizens in Jackson and Mississippi. Lawful pro
test activities were discussed in the course of these
meeting
383 .
(R473)
62. Q. What part did you play, if any, in that meeting?
A. At different meetings, I addressed the group, and at
some occasions gave the benediction on opening or other
prayer.
63. Q. Do you know George Raymond?
A . Yes.
64. Q. Was he present at that meeting of June 4th?
A. George Raymond was present at a number of meetings.
I do not recall which ones.
65. Q. Do you know Gloster Current?
A. Yes, I do.
66. Q. Was he present at the meeting of June 4, 1963?
A. Gloster Current was present at a number of meetings.
I do not recall which ones.
67. What connection, if any, does he have with the NAACP?
A.. Director of Branches.
68. Q. Did he state at that meeting of June 4th how much
money the NAACP had invested up to that point in the
demonstrations in the City of Jackson?
A. I do not remember any particular statements made at
particular meetings. He may have made a general esti
mate of money. The NAACP was required to put up for
cash bail bonds in order to acquire the release of a
number of persons who had been arrested by Jackson police
384 .
(R474)
for attempting to exercise their constitutional rights.
69. Q. Did he tell the people there assembled, and I quote:
’The resources of the NAACP are behind you?
A. Probably.
70. Q. Were the people assembled at that meeting publicly
urged to use force, if necessary, in their demonstrations
on the streets of Jackson?
A . See 50 .
71. Q. were you present at a meeting held on the night of
June 7, 1963, in the Masonic Temple on Lynch Street?
A . See 34 .
72. Q. What part, if any, did you take in that meeting?
A See 52.
73. Q. Were those assembled at that meeting urged to con
tinue to demonstrate forcibly, if necessary?
A. No. See 50.
74. Q. You knew at that time that you and others had been
enjoined by The Chancery Court of the First Judicial
District of Hinds County, Mississippi, from participating
in any further illegal or unlawful demonstrations, didn’t
you?
A. I knew when the injunction was handed down by the
Hinds County Court.
385 .
75.
76.
77 .
78 .
79.
80.
81.
82 .
Q. Do you know Dr. H. Claude Hudson?
A. I do not know him personally.
Q. Isn’t he a member of the National Board of Directors
of the NAACP?
A. I have no personal knowledge of this.
Q. Wasn’t he present at the meeting of June 7, 1963?
A. He was present at one of the meetings, I do not
remember which one.
Q. I want to ask you if he didn’t make the statement to
those assembled at that meeting, and I quote: nThe streets
of Jackson might be red with blood, your bodies might be
mangled in the streets’?
A. That statement was made in the context of his
encouraging people to stand up for their rights and to
protest segregation despite mistreatment or beatings by
the police.
Q. Did he make any similar statement to that?
A . See 78 .
Q. Did Medgar Evers address that meeting:
A . See 57 .
Q. Were those present at that meeting urged to take
violent action?
A. See 50.
Q. Did Dick Gregory appear at that meeting?
386 .
(R475)
A. He appeared at one of the meegings.
83. Q. Has he ever made this statement or a similar statement
in your presence, and I quote: ’When I got in town last
night, I learned they had an injunction against me. Hell,
they been putting me in jail all over the south without
that.’ Close quote?
A. I do not remember specific statements but I do rem
ember he said that or something similar to that.
84. Q. You decline to state whether he made any such state
ment in your presence?
A. See 83.
85. Q. On the night of June 7th you did know about the
Chancery Court injunction, didn’t you?
A . See 74.
86. Q. Do you know whether anyone took Negroes to white
Churches in the City of Jackson the morning of June 9th?
A. On June 9th, I was in New York City. I read in the
New York papers about the police arresting persons who
were attempting to go to church to worship God.
87. Q. On how many Sundays have you done that since June
9th?
A. On several Sundays, the dates I do not recall.
88. Q. That type of demonstration is known as a ’kneel-in’
isn’t it?
387 .
A. I have attended or attempted to attend Christian
churches with other individuals who were attempting the
same thing. I characterize it as people trying to go to
Church to worship God.
89. Q. Are you willing to tell me about any meetings you have
attended for the purpose of planning demonstrations in
Jackson?
A . Yes .
90. Q. And you are not willing to tell me about any of your
visits to any church in the City of Jackson in the company
of Negroes?
A . See 88 .
91. Q. And you helped to plan and arrange that demonstration
that day?
A . See 93 .
92. Q. Your Bill of Complaint does deal specifically with
what was taking place there on Rose Street that day,
doesn’t it?
A. Partially.
(R476) 93. Q. Now, let’s get back to what type demonstration that
was and who planned it. Who planned it?
A. Citizens were attempting to march to the City Hall to
petition for redress of grievances particularly for the
murder of Medgar Evers and lack of police protection
388 .
afforded to him and other Negroes. Generally the same
group with the exception of Medgar Evers.
94. Q. Reverend King, I believe you publicly announced that
you were not going to pay any attention to the injunction
issued by the Chancery Court of the First Judicial Dis
trict of Hinds County on June 6, 1963, in Cause No.
63,429, did you not?
A. To my knowledge, I have never performed any unlawful
activities; consequently, I do not believe I have vio
lated the injunction which prohibited only unlawful acts.
95. Q. DidnT t you state that you intended to continue to
enter places of public accommodation and request service
at lunch counters with racially integrated groups?
A . See 94 .
95. Q. Didn’t you further state publicly you intended, if
refused service, to remain on the premises even though
asked to leave?
A . See 94 .
96. Q. Then you decline to tell me whether you publicly
defied the injunction issued by the Chancery Court of
Hinds County?
A . S ee 94 .
97. Q. Did you obey that injunction?
A . See 94 .
389 .
(R477 )
98. Q. In these activities that you have told me about that
took place on Rose Street, Farish Street, the churches
that you visited, and the demonstrations that you helped
plan, although you may not have participated in them,
were you acting as a representative of Tougaloo College?
A . No .
99. Q. What is Tougaloo Southern News?
A. It is a magazine sent to Alumni to the best of my
knowledge.
100. Q. Is it the official paper of the school?
A. I am not sure but I think so.
101. Q. Have the officials of Tougaloo College approved your
participations in these demonstrations?
A. The officials at Tougaloo neither approve nor dis
approve of the personal activities of the faculty.
102. Q. Has any official of the college expressed disapproval?
A . See 101 .
103. Q. How many times have you discussed these demonstra
tions with the President, Dr. Beittel?
A. Dr. Beittel has discussed his concern for students
at Tougaloo who were in jail at the hands of Jackson
police and for others who received injuries through
that a gency.
104. Q. What position did he take?
390 .
(R478)
A . See 101 .
105. Q. He knew that both you and John Salter, Jr., were
very active in these demonstrations, did he not?
A. Undoubtedly.
106. Q. Did he cooperate?
A. As far as I know, Dr. Beittel is in sympathy with
Negroes’ attempts to achieve civil rights.
107. Q. Did he give you any help in these activities?
A. He encouraged me as Chaplain to see about the
injured and jailed students.
108. Q. Are you a member of the Community Party?
A . No .
109. Q. Now you are declining to tell me who and where the
plans for this demonstration on Capitol Street at which
you were arrested were made?
A . No .
110. Q. Before you reached the postoffice building and as
a part of the planning of that demonstration, you all
notified the news media and the television people of
the fact the demonstration would be put on and what
time it would be put on, didn’t you?
A. I don’t know.
111. Q. Why did you notify the news media of your plans to
do this on the steps of the postoffice?
391 .
A . See 110 .
- L l L Rev. Ralph Edwin King, Jr.__
Rev. Ralph Edwin King, Jr.
SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED BEFORE ME on this 29th day of
January, 1964 .
/s/ Jack H . Young_______________
Notary Public
My Commission expires Sept. 25, 1967.
(The foregoing instrument carries proper Certificate
of Service which is not copied here.)
392 .
IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE UNITED STATES FOR THE
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI - JACKSON DIVISION
CIVIL ACTION NO. 3432 (J) (C)
5
6
7
NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT
OF COLORED PEOPLE, A NEW YORK CORPORATION:
ROY WILKINS; CHARLES EVERS; WILLIE B» LUDDEN;
REVEREND RALPH EDWIN KING; DORIS ERSKINE and
DORIS ALLISON PLAINTIFFS
8
9 VS »
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
ALLEN THOMPSON, Mayor of the City of Jackson,
Mississippi; D. L. LUCKEJ, TOM MARSHALL, City
Commissioners;'W. D. RAYFIELD, , CHIEF OF POLICE,
City of Jackson, J. L. RAY, DEPUTY CHIEF OF
POLICE, Jackson; M, B. PIERCE, ASSISTANT CHIEF
OF POLICE, Jackson; JA. TRAVIS, City Prosecuting
Attorney, Jackson; R. G.NICHOLS, Special City
Prosecutor; T« B. BIRDSONG, Commissioner of
State Highway Patrolmen; J. R 0 GILFOY, Sheriff
of Hinds County; PAUL G. ALEXANDER, County
Attorney, Hinds County, Mississippi, HONORABLE
PAUL B. JOHNSON, JR*, Governor of the State of
Mississippi, JOE T. PATTERSON, Attorney General
of the State of Mississippi; and HEBER LADNER,
Secretary of State DEFENDANTS
19
J
20
21
22
TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL HELD BEFORE JUDGE HAROLD COX
.... o-=n-mc— x— f
Monday, February 4, 1964, Tuesday, February 5, 1964,
Wednesday, February 6, 1964, Thursday, February 7,
1964, and Thursday, February 27, 1964, Friday, February
£8, 1964.
Trial held in the Federa
24 APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 23 Jack H. Young,
1 Court Room, Jackson, Mississippi
115^ North Farish Street, Jackson,Miss,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
393 .
Carsie A. Hall, 115^ North Farish St., Jackson, Miss.
Derrick A. Bell, 10 Columbus Circle, New York 19, N.Y.
Barbara A. Morris, 20 West 40th St., New York 19, N. Y„
FOR THE DEFENDANTS:
Thomas H. Watkins, of Watkins & Eager, 800 Plaza Bldg.,
Jackson, Mississippi.
Jack A. Travis, Electric Building, Jackson, Miss.
Robert G. Nichols, Lamar Life Building, Jackson, Miss.
E. W. Stennett, City Hall, Jackson, Mississippi
FOR THE DEFEMANTS GOVERNOR PAUL B. JOHNSON, JOE T. PATTERSON,
HEBER LADNER AND T. B. BIRDSONG:
Martin R. McLendon, Assistant Attorney General of the
State of Mississippi, New Capitol, Jackson,
Mississippi.
( The hearing opened promptly at 9 A.M. Monday, February
3, 1964, before Judge Harold Cox, in Jackson, Mississippi, and
the proceedings were as follows:)
P R O C E E D I N G S
RULE INVOKED.
THE COURT:
MR. BELL:
All right
We will call as our first witness, Mrs. Ruby
Hurley.
MRS., RUBY HURLEY
After having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
394 .
BY MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Mrs. Hurley, will you give us your name and address
and where you are employed and by whom?
A. Mrs. Ruby Hurley, Atlanta, Georgia, Southeast
Regional Secretary for the NAACP, National Association for the
Advancement of Colored People.
Q. You are employed by the New York corporation?
A. That is right.
Q. And what does the Southeastern Region encompass?
A. The Southeast Region is composed of Florida,
Georgia, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina and Tennes
see, six states.
Q. And how is the NAACP constructed in regard to the
corporation and its affiliates?
A. The NAACP is an incorporated non-profit member
ship organization chartered under the State laws of New York
with local affiliates in some thousand or more communities in
forty-nine states. The local units are unincorporated.
Q. What is the purpose of the NAACP?
A. The NAACP is organized to use all legal and law
ful means to end discrimination as it affects Negroes, in all
aspects of American life.
Q I am going to show you two documents and ask you
if you will identify them?
A Yes. The white back cover is — covered document
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
is the Constitution and By-Laws for branches —
THE COURT:
I can't hear you very well.
THE WITNESS:
A. The white covered document is the Constitution and
By-Laws for the branches of the Association. The blue back
cover is the Constitution for the National Association — the
national body.
MRS. MORRIS:
I would like these admitted in evidence if there
is no objection.
THE COURT:
I believe it would be better to offer them one at
a time and give them separate numbers.
MRS. MORRIS:
_______________________________________________ ____________ 395.
Yes. First, I will give you that one.
THE COURT:
Do you want to look at them?
MR. WATKINS:
We have seen them, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
All right. They may be admitted in evidence and
the blue one is marked Plaintiff's Exhibit One and the white
one Plaintiff's Exhibit Two.
(Whereupon, the above described blue
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
396 .
backed document was marked Plaintiff’s
Exhibit No. 1, and the above described
white backed document was marked Plain
tiff’s Exhibit No. 2, and admitted in
evidence.)
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. How did you become a member of the NAACP?
A. Any person who subscribes to the principles and
policies for which the NAACP stands and pays a membership in
the Association can become a member of the Association.
Q. And how are the branches governed?
A. The branches are governed, number one, by the Con
stitution, the white covered book that we have there, and by
the officers and the executive committee elected by them.
Q. And this is separate and apart from the Constitu
tion to the national office?
A. This is true.
THE COURT:
Q. I assume it’s a non-stock company?
A. It is, yes.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. This is a non-profit membership corporation?
A. Non-profit membership corporation.
THE COURT:
Q. Non-profit, but also non-stock?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
397 .
A. Non-stock, this is true.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. I have here two more documents. I wonder if you
could identify them for me?
A. These are copies of the resolutions as have been
adopted by conventions of the Association in annual session.
This one was adopted by our annual convention — these resolu
tions, rather, were adopted by our annual convention which met
in Atlanta, Georgia in 1962, and these are the resolutions that
were adopted at our last convention in Chicago in 1963.
MRS. MORRIS:
I would like to offer these. They are identifi
able — I will give you the one for '62 first, and then the one
for *63.
THE COURT:
Has the defense seen those?
MR. WATKINS:
Yes, sir.
THE COURT:
Which one is offered first?
THE CLERK:
1962.
THE COURT:
All right. Mark those Exhibits three and four
respectively.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Whereupon, the above described document
dated 1962 was marked Plaintiffs Exhibit
No. 3, and the above described document
dated 1963 was marked Plaintiff's Exhibit
No. 4, and admitted in evidence.)
MRS. MORRIS:
The only other question I have had to do with the
charter, but Mr. McLendon said this is the paper to which he
referred when he had the interlineation made in Paragraph Four
of the Pre-trial Order, so it is already in evidence.
THE COURT:
All right.
MRS. MORRIS:
I have no further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q. What duties do you have in connection with the
operation of the local chapters of the NAACP?
A. I didn't understand the first part of your ques
tion .
Q. What are your duties incident to the operations
of the local chapters of the NAACP?
A. I am responsible for the interpretation of NAACP
policy when questions arise in local chapters — local branches
_________________________________ (Hurley - Direct)_______________ 398 .
of the Association.
(Hurley - Cross) 399 .
1
2 j
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
xoj
11!
12
13
14
15
16
17
Q. Do I understand correctly that you interpret the
policies of the NAACP throughout the six Southeastern states
that you have mentioned?
A. Where questions arise and they come to my atten
tion — this is one phase of my work. I have a responsibility
also of suggesting programs in conformity to our policy when
questions arise. I have to speak when I'm asked to speak.
There are a number of things I have to do.
Q. What connection do you have with local chapters
of the NAACP during public demonstrations sponsored by those
chapters?
A. None at all, unless I am asked in to a community.
Q. My next question is, were you asked in to the
demonstrations which were taking place in Jackson, beginning
generally in December of 1962, and continuing generally through
the year of 1963?
A. I was not.
18 MRS. MORRIS:
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Your Honor, I would object to this line of ques
tioning. It’s not within the scope of the direct examination
and has no relationship to it.
THE COURT:
Well, I think that is a good objection under the
rule, but I will overrule it because I just don't follow that
rule here.
(Hurley - Cross) 400.
1 MR. WATKINS:
i
2 Q. I believe you told me that you had not been asked
3 to make any interpretation during the Jackson demonstrations?
4 A. This is true.
5 Q. Are you familiar with the literature distributed
6 in and around Jackson during the Jackson demonstrations?
7 A. My only knowledge of the literature was that that
8 came in Chancery Court the other day.
9 Q. You have seen the pamphlets which were distributed
10 bearing the endorsement of at least four local NAACP chapters,
11 haven't you?
12 A. I w a s n ’t aware of them having been distributed,
13 Counselor. I think you showed me those the other day in the
14 Chancery Court hearing. T h a t ’s as much knowledge as I had of
15 t h e m .
16 Q. Well, I want to now show you Exhibit "A” to the
17 deposition of Reverend Ralph Edwin King in this case, which
18
! appears on page 13 of that deposition, and I want to ask you
19 if you recognize that as NAACP sponsored literature in the
20 Jackson area?
21 MR. BELL:
22 Just a second. I d o n ’t know that the deposition
23 of R e verend King has been placed in evidence at all or whether
24 it was suitable to use that word — the wording "exhibit to the
25 d e p o s i t i o n " .
(Hurley - Cross) 401.
MRS. MORRIS:
I might add, Your Honor, there is no testimony
that this has been distributed yet. The witness said she didn't
know it was distributed.
MR. WATKINS:
If it please Your Honor, the deposition is on file.
The deposition shows that they were distributed, and the Plain
tiff, Reverend Ralph Edwin King, distributed some of them him
self .
THE COURT:
Well, I will let her answer what she knows about
it. It's not in evidence, that's correct, but I'll let her
answer due to the fact that it is attached to his deposition,
only by way of identifying it.
MR. WATKINS:
All right.
THE WITNESS:
I don't know anything about this at all.
s'
MR. WATKINS:
Q. Let me ask you whether or not that exhibit cor
rectly reflects the principles of the NAACP?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to this on the same ground —
to this entire line of questioning. She doesn't know anything
about that document.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Hurley - Cross) 402 •
THE COURT:
All right, I'll overrule the objection, and I'll
grant you a continuing objection on that ground.
THE WITNESS:
I can only say that the exhibit seems to indicate
a discontent with racial practices by some of the stores in
Jackson, and if this is what the NAACP groups found, then it
would be within the policy of the Association to state such ob
jections .
MR. WATKINS:
Q. Now, just a matter of a few days ago, you were
handed a copy of that same piece of literature in the Chancery
Court of the First Judicial District of Hinds County, Missis
sippi, in the case of City of Jackson versus NAACP, and others,
and you unequivocably stated that that did correctly reflect
the principles of the NAACP, did you not?
A. I'm not sure that this was the same leaflet. It
may have been — I don’t recall this particular leaflet as
being the same one. I'm not positive in that sense, but I say
still that we are opposed — the Association — that this would
be within the policy of the Association, if this is what the
people of Jackson demand.
THE COURT:
Keep your voice up so everyone can hear you.
THE WITNESS:
(Hurley - Cross) 403 .
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
« |
12
13
14
i
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
I’m sorry.
MR. WATKINS:
Now, for purposes of identification in this rec
ord, Your Honor, I would like for the reporter to identify —
well, I would first like to offer in evidence this pamphlet
which this witness has identified as being in conformity with
the principles of the NAACP, and I will show later that this is
one of the pamphlets distributed by the NAACP in the Jackson
area during these demonstrations.
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I'm going to object to it until it’s
shown who distributed it, if it was distributed by somebody in
the Association that is connected up with these activities,
whether or not it is in accordance with the policy of one
group or whether it entered into these activities at
any time.
I think at some later time we would be able to
establish it.
THE COURT:
Well, I'll let that exhibit — that one page
which is the handbill, is that correct, Mr. Watkins?
MR. WATKINS:
Yes, sir.
THE COURT:
25 Let it be marked Defendants' Exhibit One for
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Hurley - Cross) 404 .
identification.
(Whereupon, the above described document
was marked Defendants* Exhibit No. 1
for identification.)
MR. WATKINS:
Q. Now, I hand you Exhibit "B" to the deposition of
Reverend Ralph Edwin King, one of the Plaintiffs in this case,
appearing on page 17 of his deposition, and it’s entitled:
"North Jackson Action, Official Bulletin of the North Jackson
Youth Council, NAACP, Jackson, Mississippi" dated November 30,
1962, and I will ask you first if you are familiar with that
piece of literature bearing the name of the NAACP's local or
ganization?
A. This appears to be a copy of the bulletin that you
showed me in the other case the other day. That's the extent
of my familiarity with it.
Q. You have read it a number of times, haven't you?
A. I read it the other day and I am glancing at it
today — just once — the first time I had seen it was the
other day.
Q. It purports to state the NAACP's grievances here
in the City of Jackson in connection with the demonstrations,
doesn't it?
A. There seems to be one item with reference to the
statement of grievances.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q. And it purports to suggest a course of action
which the NAACP is suggesting to all other members of the
Negro race, and all members of both races if they would follow
their advice, isn’t it?
A. Well, this is, as I said, a copy of a release by
the North Jackson Youth Council of the NAACP — not the NAACP,
the North Jackson Youth Council.
Q. I believe my question was, that it purports to
suggest a course of action to be followed during the Jackson
demonstrations?
A. It appears to be that.
Q. And it is in conformity with the principles of the
NAACP, is it not?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I have a similar objection to this
and any other document with which the witness is not familiar,
and which it has not been shown has been disseminated by the
Plaintiff or its agents.
THE COURT:
Well, I will let her tell us what she knows, if
anything, about these documents. I think your objection goes
more to the weight than to the compentency, so I will overrule
your objection.
I can only say that the — if the Jackson Youth
(Hurley - Cross) 405.
THE WITNESS:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Hurley - Cross) 406 .
Council has found that there is discrimination as described,
then — and they propose a course of action to protest that
discrimination, it is in accordance with NAACP policy. I see
here that there is — once again, that there’s a question of
boycott movement. The NAACP does not use that terminology in
the national sense, but this is a local group over which we
would have no control.
THE COURT:
Mr. Watkins, what is the relevancy of some other
organization’s activities even if it does happen to coincide
with the NAACP?
MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, I don’t consider this as some other
organization, since it is a branch of the NAACP — the North
Jackson Youth Council of the NAACP.
THE COURT:
It is a branch?
MR. WATKINS:
That would be my normal assumption I would draw
from that.
THE COURT:
In other words, you are saying it is a subsidiary
MR. WATKINS:
Yes, sir.
THE COURT:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Hurley - Cross) 407 .
— or is it a real branch, just another office
of the NAACP?
MR. WATKINS:
What the connection is with the national organiza
tion, I would have no idea, Your Honor, but since it bears the
name of the NAACP on it, I would think that the national organi
zation either ought to approve of what this local organization
does or stop them from doing it if they don’t approve — using
their name.
THE COURT:
Go ahead. I’ll listen.
MR. WATKINS:
I would like to now offer in evidence Exhibit "B"
to the deposition of Reverend Ralph Edwin King, about which
the witness has just testified.
MRS. MORRIS:
I have the same objection to the admission of this
as I did to the previous document. That hasn’t been properly
identified.
THE COURT:
Well, I wouldn’t admit it in evidence at this
time — if I had enough before me to decide whether it was
competent or not, but I will let it be marked Defendant’s
Exhibit Two for identification.
(Whereupon, the above described document
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Hurley - Cross) 408 .
was marked Defendant’s Exhibit No. 2
for identification.)
MR. WATKINS:
Q. What is the Jackson movement?
A. I do not know.
Q. Do you know what connection, if any, the local
chapter of the NAACP have with the Jackson movement?
A. I do not know.
Q. And I believe you told me that you had not taken
any part in either the planning or the demonstrating that took
place in Jackson?
A. That is true.
Q. Well now, isn’t it true that you attended a mass
meeting to plan some of these demonstrations —
A . No —
Q. — which was — just a minute — which was held
at the Masonic Temple on Lynch Street at 7:30 P.M. on June 2nd,
1963?
A. I attended a mass meeting, but it was not in
planning — not for planning demonstrations, that I was aware
of, at least.
Q. What did take place at that meeting?
A. I don’t remember too much of what took place
other than people speaking. I don't remember who spoke.
Q. You were there?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Hurley - Cross) 409 .
A. Yes,
Q. Who is Gloster Current?
A. Mr. Current is a director of branches for the
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, and
my immediate superior.
Q. And where does he — where is his office?
A. In New York.
THE COURT:
What's his name again, please.
THE WITNESS:
Gloster B. Current. C-u-r-r-e-n-t (Spelling).
MR. WATKINS:
Q. Wasn't he present at that meeting the night of
June 2nd?
A. I'm not sure that he was. He may have been.
Q. Didn't he address the meeting?
A. I'm not sure about that. He may have.
Q. Do you mean to tell this Court that you were
present, that your boss from New York may have been present
and may have addressed the meeting and you not knowing it?
A. Well, I’m saying this — I came in that day. I
went to the office — went upstairs to the office. I went to
the meeting that night. Mr. Current was in town during the
day and he was to leave town to go to his daughter's gradua
tion or his son's graduation — whether he left that day or the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Hurley - Cross) 410 .
next day, I don’t remember.
Q. Is it not a fact that at that meeting that night,
Gloster Current addressed the meeting and said, among other
things, the following: Quote: "We already have fifty thousand
dollars invested in you people. The resources of the NAACP are
behind you." Didn’t he make that statement?
A. I don’t remember that he did. I didn't hear it.
Q. Did Medgar Evers address that meeting?
A. I don't remember that.
Q. Did you hear him tell the group that the demon
strations in the streets of Jackson would continue?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Well now, didn't you also attend a mass meeting
at the Masonic Temple in Jackson on the night of June the 7th,
1963 at eight o'clock P. M.?
A. I attended a meeting on June 7th, yes.
Q. Well, was it not at the place that I designated?
A. This is true.
Q. I'll ask you if Dr. H. Claude Hudson of Los
Angeles, California, and a member of the NAACP's national
board of directors, wasn't present and that he didn't address
that meeting?
A. Dr. Hudson was present and from the record on
last Wednesday, he addressed the meeting. I don't remember
what Dr. Hudson said, or not — I don’t remember hearing him
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
THE COURT:
Can you all hear over there all right?
MR. McLENDON:
(Hurley - Cross) 411.
Not very well, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
You are not speaking quite loud enough. I thought
we were going to have a big crowd up here or I would have
stayed in the small courtroom.
MR. WATKINS:
Q. Isn’t it a fact that that night at that meeting,
Dr. Hudson told the group that the NAACP is the steel, super
structure of this movement. Didn't he make that statement?
MRS. MORRIS:
I object to this line of questioning. The wit
ness has testified that she didn't remember.
THE COURT:
If she doesn't remember, of course, she wouldn't
know about that. I sustain the objection.
MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, I submit that I have a right to re
fresh her memory with statements made in her presence.
THE COURT:
Well, if she can remember it, yes.
MR. WATKINS:
That’s the reason — I'm trying to refresh her
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1 1
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Hurley - Cross) 412 .
memory, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
All right, go ahead.
MR. WATKINS:
Q. You don't recall that, statement being made?
A. I do not.
Q. Is it not a fact that at that meeting, Dr. Hudson
stated in your presence and to the group: Quote: "The streets
of Jackson might be red with blood, your bodies might be
mangled in the street, and then if we have to, we’ll do it."
Closed quote.
MRS. MORRIS:
I have the same objection to this question. The
witness has already testified that she doesn't remember. He
can take it down categorically statement by statement.
THE WITNESS:
I'll let him ask her if she remembers.
MR. WATKINS:
Q. Wasn't that statement made?
A. I'm not sure at all that it was made in my pres
ence, sir. I was not in the meeting during it's entirety,
and I don't remember what Dr. Hudson said. As I said the
other day, I'm not at all sure that I was in there while he
was speaking.
Q. You don't recall his making that statement?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1 1
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
29
(Hurley - Cross) 413 .
A. I do not.
Q. Do you recall Dr. Gene Noble addressing that
meeting?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Do you recall Dr. Gene Noble being there?
A. I recall that Dr. Gene Noble came to Jackson with
Miss Lena Horne, as I said the other day, is a friend of hers,
but I don’t remember that she spoke.
Q. Do you recall Dick Gregory addressing that meet
ing?
A. I do not.
Q. Was Dick Gregory there?
A. He was there. The time he came, I don’t remember,
and I don’t remember whether I was in there when he spoke.
Q. I will ask you if it’s not a fact that when you
were present in that room, Dick Gregory addressed that meet
ing and said, among other things, quote: "Let’s bust them.
Let’s go until we can’t go no more, and I say to the policemen
in the house, you go back to your big white daddy and tell
him 'stretch the barbed wire, baby, 'cause we are coming.'"
Closed quote. Didn’t he make that statement?
A. I don't remember that statement at all.
Q. Who sponsored those two meetings?
A. I really don’t know who sponsored them. I came
to it — to Jackson to confer with Evers and he asked me to go
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Hurley - Cross) 414 .
to the meetings with him. I didn't ask who was sponsoring
them.
Q. The meeting of June the 7th, didn't you partici
pate in it yourself?
A. I introduced Lena Horne. I was asked to intro
duce Miss Lena Horne, who happens to be a friend of mine.
Q. What did you tell the group was the purpose of
Miss Lena Horne being there?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Do you remember anything you told them?
A. I really don't. The only thing I remember is that
I asked that there be no smoking in the audience. I do remem
ber that, but what I said, I don't remember. I did not have
it written.
Q. Why were you at the meeting?
A. I was asked to introduce Miss Horne and I went
down to introduce her.
Q. And that's the only thing you can tell this Court
about what took place that night?
A. That's all I can remember about the meeting.
Q. Well now, the other day in Chancery Court when I
asked you that question, you said, yes, you could tell me
something else that happened that night.
A. I said I can tell you those two things, yes, but
these did not refer to what went on or who said what at the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Hurley - Cross) 415 .
meeting. I can remember, as I said the other day, that Evers
handed me a note indicating that there were some people smok
ing and to ask that there be no smoking in the courtroom.
I remember that I looked at him — he pointed in
the direction where the smoke was coming from. I made the
announcement and three white men got up and left very shortly
after I made the announcement, and I remember that after we —
in later days after the picture appeared that one of the three
men was identified by a number of people as being Beckwith.
Q. Now, your testimony in Chancery —
THE COURT:
Who?
THE WITNESS:
Beckwith.
THE COURT:
Oh.
MR. WATKINS:
Q. Now, your testimony in Chancery Court the other
day was the unequivocal statement that the three white men
got up and left, one of whom was Beckwith?
A. One of them was Beckwith. Well, I qualified it
now because nobody knew who Beckwith was, as Beckwith at that
time. Evers was still living. Evers was killed five days
later and Beckwith’s picture appeared subsequently, and many
of us who went over what had happened during those days prior
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Hurley - Cross) 416 .
agreed that Beckwith was in the auditorium that night — that
he was one of the three men who left.
Q. Now, shortly after your testimony in Chancery
Court a few days ago, you were subpoenaed by the District
Attorney of Hinds County to the Circuit Court of Hinds County,
weren't you?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. When you reported to that Court, you stated un
equivocally that you could not say that Beckwith was present
at the meeting of June 7th, 1963.
A. I beg your pardon. I did not say that.
Q. What did you say?
A. I said just what I have said here. This was not
in Court. I was not in Court at all. I was talking with
counsel and with the Chief of Police the other day.
Q. Didn't you tell them you could not identify Beck
with as being the man at that meeting of June 7th?
A. No, sir. No, sir, I did not say that.
Q. Did you tell them that you could identify him?
A. Yes. I’m still under subpoena in case they want
me to testify.
Q. Then do I understand that you are telling the
Court now that one of the three things that you can remember
about your attendance at that meeting of June 7th was that you
introduced Lena Horne, that Medgar Evers handed you a note
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Hurley - Cross) 417 .
asking that the three men be asked to stop smoking in the room,
that that request was made and that three white men got up and
left, one of whom was Beckwith?
A. This was my statement.
Q. And that is your testimony today?
A. Yes.
Q. And you are not able to tell us anything that a
single speaker said at that meeting that night, including
Lena Horne?
A. I don’t remember what people said. I attend
hundreds of meetings during a year, and during that particular
period, I was involved in something else other than meetings
in my mind. Subsequently, as I indicated the other day, I
simply have forgotten most of what happened the week prior
after Medgar Evers was killed.
I remember what he did last. I remember the note
because this was the last written word that I had from Evers.
I remember my relationship to him that night because that was
the last time that I talked with him before he was murdered.
Q. You did know when you went to this meeting that
it was a meeting in connection with the Jackson demonstrations
that were going on, didn’t you?
A. I knew that.
Q. Dr. Claude Hudson is a member of the Board of
Directors of the National NAACP, isn't he?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A. Yes, he is.
_________ (Hurley - Cross)____________418 .
MR. WATKINS:
I believe that's all, Your Honor.
MRS. MORRIS:
Can she stay?
MR. WATKINS:
I may want to call her back.
(Witness excused.)
MR. BELL:
We will call Charles Evers.
CHARLES EVERS
After having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
Q. Will you state your name and address, please?
A. Charles Evers, Field Secretary for the NAACP,
State of Mississippi, 1072 Lynch Street, Jackson.
Q. What is your race?
A. I beg your pardon.
Q. What is your race?
A. I guess I'm classified as a member of the Negro
race.
Q. How long have you lived in Jackson?
A. This last time I've been here now for seven
months. Since June the 13th, I believe, I have been living
(Evers - Direct) 419 .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
in Jackson — 1963.
Q. Did you live in Jackson prior to that time?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When was that?
A. It was back in nineteen forty — in the early
forties.
Q. Where were you born?
A. I was born in Newton County, Decatur, Mississippi.
Q. Can you bring your voice up a little?
A. Newton County, Decatur, Mississippi.
Q. How did you come to get the job in which you are
presently employed?
A. After my brother was assassinated, I took over
his job as Field Secretary — replaced him.
Q. What was your brother’s name?
A. Pardon.
Q. What was your brother's name?
A. Medgar Wiley Evers.
Q. And you have held this job now for how long?
A. Since June 17th, '63.
Q. Would you summarize for the Court the duties and
the obligations of this job?
A. The duties of the job, more or less, is to help
25
to make it a better place for all citizens who live in Missis
sippi, and particularly the Negro citizens.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
(Evers - Direct) 420 .
THE COURT:
When did you take over this job?
THE WITNESS:
June the 17th, '63.
MR• BELL:
Q. In what manner do you try to achieve a better
life for the Negroes and all citizens in the State of Missis
sippi?
A. Number one, we do work within the framework of
the laws of Mississippi. We try to test those who we feel are
unjust through Courts. We encourage Negroes to register and
become qualified voters. We encourage Negroes to spend money
only where their money is respected and they are respected.
We encourage them to work on drop-outs — stay in
school to get a decent education, of such we have. We en
courage them to be moral, decent, respectful citizens and de
mand respect from others. And we encourage them to report any
injustice been thrown upon them through anyone, whether
Negro or white, and particularly the police brutality that*s
been imposed upon our people by the local police officials
in different localities throughout the State.
Q. Now, you have these aims — what conditions are
these goals intended to correct? What conditions in the mind
of your organization are these aims intended to correct?
A. To correct — number one, police brutality is our
(Evers - Direct) 421.
greatest objective now. And number two, to get Negroes regis
tered and vote. Number three, to desegregate all facilities in
Mississippi and make it a place where all people can be accept
ed regardless of race, creed or color. Number three, to educate
our people in integrated schools, and number four is to become
an American in Mississippi.
Q. Now, are you interested in these goals for your
self or who are you interested in achieving these goals for?
A. I am interested in achieving these goals for all
of the people in Mississippi.
Q. Do you understand that you are a Plaintiff in
this action?
A. I do.
Q. Tell the Court, if you can, your understanding
of what you hope to achieve by this lawsuit?
A. I hope to achieve the rights that have been given
us long ago — the right to demonstrate or to protest peace
fully as long as it’s within means without jeopardizing the
future or harming anyone — any property.
I hope to get the right to picket and the right
to hold meetings without being molested or intimidated by the
law officials of the different cities, without my people being
misused and abused to and from the meetings and not being in
timidated, and without — give justice in the Courts, and be
able to hold jobs in different places of Jackson, even as
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
29
(Evers - Direct) 422 .
attorneys, work in the Sheriff’s office as clerks, even get
into the Mayor's office if that ever become possible, to have
clerks, and even some day have someone able if they are quali
fied, to run for any political office that any other citizen
can run for in Mississippi.
Q. Now, in carrying out this program and trying to
reach these goals, have you, as Field Secretary, experienced
difficulties and if so, would you tell the Court about some of
these difficulties?
A. The difficulties that I've experienced is the
same that Medgar and I experienced all our — ever since we
wanted to be free. Number one, constant threats from anonymous
callers, interference from police throughout the State, the
denial of the right to participate and to be served in differ
ent public accommodations, the right — denial of the right to
get a drink of water in public fountains, denied the rights
for my children or any other child — Negro child to
participate — and swim in the public swimming pools in Missis
sippi; denied the right to go and play in the parks with my
kids or with my family or with other Negro families in Missis
sippi .
We have been arrested because of the fact that we
wanted to be in the parks. The pools have been closed in
Jackson, particularly because we wanted them on an integrated
basis.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Direct) 423 .
MR. WATKINS:
If it please the Court, I don't want to interrupt
this answer, but the witness is far beyond and outside the
issues of this lawsuit which are whether or not certain speci
fic demonstrations were lawfully or unlawfully being conduct
ed on the streets of Jackson beginning in December of 1962, to
and through the year 1963, and this witness is attempting by
those statements to make a mass coverage of every type of
grievance that Negroes may ever have thought they have suffered
from any source throughout the years, and I submit that the
issues of this lawsuit are not that broad and should be con
fined to the issues made by the complainant in this case.
MR. BELL:
Your Honor, a great deal of answers has to be
given. First, he hasn't —
THE COURT:
I can't hear you very well.
MR. BELL:
First, he hasn't allowed me to tie up the testi
mony. He interrupted right in the middle of the question.
Second, I don’t know if counsel has read the complaint, because
the issues are certainly far broader than concern over the May
and June demonstrations, as we pointed out in the pre-trial
conference of last week. And third, I would like the record
to show that counsel for the defendants is referring to the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Direct) 424 .
witness in his class as Negroes. Therefore, I think the objec
tion should be overruled.
THE COURT:
I’ll let you go on. Let's stay on the issues
now. We do have notice pleadings in this Court.
MR. BELL:
Well, I think — I think the complaint —
THE COURT:
That doesn’t mean that we don't stay on the
issues. All right, go ahead.
MR. BELL:
Q. Mr. Evers, in carrying out or trying to obtain
these goals, have you and the organization you represent made
efforts to protest publicly against the situation, and if so,
would you discuss these efforts?
A. One is,we have organized voter registration
classes and drives, and we had a tremendous amount of persons
going down to register and vote — to register during the
months of July, August and September.
During this time, the Registrar closed the books
as no more than a form of intimidation and stopped us from
registering. That's one obstacle —
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, I want to object to
that. The voter registration hasn't got the first thing to do
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Direct) 425 .
with this lawsuit. It's the basis of an entirely different
lawsuit.
THE COURT:
I’ll sustain your objection on that.
MR. BELL:
THE COURT:
MR. BELL:
Could the witness be heard on that?
What?
The question to the witness was: what are the
activities that they had tried to engage in in protesting
against the conditions in which they find themselves living in
this State.
The witness began to tell about — what inter
ference has occurred as a result of activities by the defend
ant, with these activities which are, in part, in protest
against the conditions existing in the State.
Now, the witness is trying to tell about some of
the activities they have engaged in and what interference that
has occurred.
THE COURT:
I don't think his answer was responsive to your
question.
MR. BELL:
Perhaps I could rephrase the question.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Direct) 426 .
THE COURT:
All right. Of course, I think his answer was
directed to a field that's not involved in the suit.
MR. BELL:
Let me rephrase the question.
Q. Mr. Evers, would you tell the Court what inter
ference, particularly from the City Officials, you and your
organization have experienced as a result of your efforts to
carry out your goals to achieve first class citizenship for
Negroes?
A. Number one is the closing of the voter registra
tion books. Number two —
MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, I object to that and move to strike
it, as not having anything to do with this lawsuit.
THE COURT:
I'll sustain the objection. Strike it.
MR. BELL:
Your Honor, in that case we would like to have
the witness, in order to make the record, to testify as to this
point under Rule 43(c) of the Federal Rules,
THE COURT:
Just make your proffer for the record, and I'm
sustaining the objection only because it's not within the
issues made by the pleadings that you made.
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Direct) 427 .
MR. BELL:
I would prefer if the witness were permitted, I
think, under the Rule, to make the statement that he was going
to make concerning it rather than just a mere proffer.
THE COURT:
You make your statement. I think we can do it
quicker.
MR. BELL:
As to this point, the witness, if permitted to
answer, would have testified that, among other methods to obta
equal rights for Negroes in the State of Mississippi, there
were efforts made to hold voter registration — have a voter
registration program and to get large numbers of Negroes to
register and vote.
This program took on a new thrust, a new meaning
after the death of Medgar Evers, Field Secretary of the NAACP,
and that during the summer months of 1963, large numbers of
Negroes attempted to register and vote in Hinds County; that
the office of the voting registrar was closed, allegedly be
cause of a lack of help, and that offers from the witness to
provide such secretarial or other clerical help were rejected,
and that the voting office was closed at a period immediately
preceding a primary election.
THE COURT:
That's the end of your proffer?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Direct) 428 .
MR. BELL:
Yes, sir.
THE COURT:
All right. I will sustain the objection, as not
being within the annals of the notice pleadings you have
made.
MR. BELL:
Q. Mr. Evers, what additional efforts have you and
your organization made to protest against the conditions that
you find existing in the State?
A. We have a selective buying program.
Q. Would you explain that?
THE COURT:
Have what? I didn’t understand you.
THE WITNESS:
A selective buying program — selective buying.
MR. BELL:
Q. Would you explain the reasons for that program
and the aims of that program?
A. The reason for the program is quite simple, that
Negroes are not — we're asking Negroes not to spend money
where they can’t be hired. We are asking them not to spend
money where they can’t be served, at lunch counters, et cetera.
We are asking them not to spend money where they
are called by their first names — "boy", "girl", "Jane" and
(Evers - Direct) 429 .
1 " J o h n " . We ask them to spend money only with those persons
2 who respect them and who give them their courtesy title. We
3 feel that this is one method and one of the greatest methods
4 in order to bring the awareness of the Negroes strive for free-
5 dom — to keep the money and spend it where it*s appreciated.
6 Q. And what interference have you encountered in
7 carrying out this selective buying campaign?
8 A. We have been — it has been stated that if anyone
9 is caught or heard of trying to encourage others not to spend
10 their money —
11 MR. WATKINS:
12 May it please the Court, "it has been stated" —
13 we object to that as hearsay; I want to know from what source.
14 MR. BELL:
15 Q. Would you indicate who made the statement?
16 A. The Mayor of Jackson stated, and I quote: "Any-
17 one who interferes wi t h anyone the right to shop will be prose-
18 cuted. We have three hundred or more policemen standing by to
19 protect any Negro who wants to come down town and shop."
20 Q. Now, what method has your organization — you
21 and your organization used in trying to get other Negroes to
22 adopt the selective buying program?
23 A. We use telephone calls. We use door to door
24 canvassing. We use any method that we feel would be under-
25 standable by the ordinary person of Jackson and throughout the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Direct) 430 .
State of Mississippi.
Q. Are these methods — can you designate these
methods as voluntary or —
A. Voluntary — by voluntary effort — workers.
Q. What success has the selective buying campaign
had?
A. It has been very effective, we feel. It hasn't
done the entire job yet, but we certainly intend to continue to
press, and to continue to encourage our people not to buy until
we can get the things that we are asking for.
Q. Is there a particular period during the time
since you have taken over as Field Secretary, that the selec
tive buying campaign had a particularly successful effect?
A. Yes. One of the noticeable ones is when the City
Bus Line, a few weeks ago, requested from the City Council to
drop, I believe it was five or six of their daily runs because
of lack of patronage of the Negroes — aren't shopping down
town, and they asked the Mayor and City Council to let them
drop the lines, and the Mayor came back and said "no".
That alone is one thing to let us know that it
is being effective. Number two, there are other things —
there are businesses going out of business who had hereto
before depended, I would say seventy-five or eighty percent on
Negro business. Many of them have closed.
Q. Now, is it the purpose of the campaign to cause
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Direct) 431.
anyone to go out of business per se?
A. No. Our aims and objectives are to get Negroes
hired, to get Negroes to be treated as any other customer who
comes into the store who trades with them — not to put anyone
out of business or create any hardship on anyone. But we feel
that it’s our duty and that we should be respected and treated
as anyone else, and that’s all we're asking.
Q. Is there another instance of recent date concern
ing the — involving the selective buying campaign that indi
cated to you whether the Negro community did or did not support
that program?
A. During Christmas we asked that we have a complete
black Christmas, and not to buy anything at all for Christmas,
no more than we just had to have, and we would say we had a
hundred percent cooperation from the Negroes.
Q. Now, what do you base that conclusion on?
A. Because we had — we bought no Christmas lights,
no Christmas trees. The merchants had to throw them out, we
hope. We bought no Christmas decorations whatsoever, visible
from the streets to be seen. No Negro neighbor's home in
Jackson had a Christmas tree in their front window or on the
front lawn, and that showed the unity of the movement.
Q. And the purpose of this particular protest was
what?
A. Was to help to encourage the Negroes to know —
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Direct) 432 .
let them know their power in spending and how it could cripple
and hurt those who defy us, and those who will not come around -
to show the unity of the Negroes in Jackson.
Q. Now, have individuals, members of your organiza
tion and supporters of your organization been arrested during
the period since you have been in office, as a result of any
activities concerning your program?
A. Yes, there were six mothers who were arrested
because they were peacefully walking down Capitol Street, I
understand, with flags in their hands — American flags. They
were hurled — hustled and thrown and put into the cars and
carried to jail, just because they were peacefully walking up
and down Capitol Street, in protest of the discrimination prac
tice that's carried on on Capitol Street.
Q. Tell me, if you know, whether you or your group
has been able, since you came, to Jackson, to make any public
protests of this nature without arrest?
A. I understand — not that I know of. I've never -
we haven't been able to show any form of picketing or marching
without being arrested.
MR. BELL :
I think that's all, Your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q. It's not clear to me during what period you have
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) 433 .
lived in Jackson. You said you lived here in the early forties
How long was that?
A. Oh, I worked over at the Trailways Bus Station
in 1940, and I went in the Army in *41, so it wasn't too long.
Originally, I came here to go to school and I worked over at
the Trailways Bus Station for — oh, I would say about seven
or eight months. That was my first time actually living here.
Q. And that was during what year?
A. 1940.
Q. And where were you in school?
A. Pardon.
Q. Where were you in school?
A. I was going to school at Newton at that time.
came over to work during the summer to save some money so I
could go to school.
Q. Now, did you live in Jackson at any time after
that, prior to June the 17th, 1963?
A. Not after that.
Q. Then from 1940 until June 17, 1963, you were not
here?
A. Not as a resident. In Jackson, you mean?
Q. Yes.
A. Right.
Q. Where were you living?
A. Well, I was in the Army for five years.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) 434 .
Q. What five years?
A. From 1941 to 1946, and I went back in 1950 to
*51, and during that time I was in school at Alcorn A. & M.
College from '46 until *50. I went back in the Army and came
out in '51.
Q. And where were you living from ’61 to *63?
A. From *51 to '63, I lived — went back to my
original home which is over in Neshoba County — Neshoba County,
Philadelphia, Mississippi. I stayed there until *57, when I
moved from there to Robbins, Illinois.
Q. Where?
A. Robbins, Illinois. It’s a suburb of Chicago —
Robbins, Illinois.
Q. And how long did you live there?
A. Until I came back here in *63.
Q. And you came back here to take your brother's
place?
A. Right.
Q. What is the Jackson movement?
A. The Jackson movement is — I think it's almost
self-explanatory. It's a movement of all the people of Jack-
son, including preachers, laymen, Catholics and all.
Q. It includes the people who are supporting the
demonstrations, boycotts, selective buying which you mentioned?
A. It includes people who are for civil rights.
435 .
Q. And that would include the NAACP?
A. We are certainly for civil rights.
Q. And the NAACP has been a part of the Jackson
movement here in Jackson, hasn't it?
A. The NAACP is made up of local citizens of Jackson.
Naturally, any movement would take in part of the NAACP.
THE COURT:
Just answer his question. Don't argue with him.
Just tell him what you know.
MR. WATKINS:
Q. Do you know what I'm talking about when I say
the Jackson movement?
A. I don't know whether — I don't know what's your
interpretation of it.
Q. Don't you know that you have put out literature,
sometimes put NAACP on it and sometimes you put "Jackson Move
ment" on it?
A. Well, I'm responsible in the NAACP on it.
Q. Are you not familiar with that that's come out
with "The Jackson Movement" as the name on the bottom of it?
A. It's quite possible that I —
Q. Well, let me hand you this one which has at the
top of it: "Negro shoppers and friends, the Jackson Movement
belongs to you", and then it asks them not to trade at certain
places, and it's got "Jackson Movement" at the bottom. Now,
_________________________________ __ (Evers - Cross)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) 436 .
you know what the Jackson Movement is, don't you?
A. (Nodding)
Q. He's nodding to the affirmative.
A. Yes, yes.
Q. And you are a part of it?
A. Yes.
Q. And your organization, the NAACP, is a part of
it?
A. Yes.
Q. And CORE is a part of it?
A. I don't speak for any but the NAACP.
THE COURT:
Speak up, please.
THE WITNESS:
I say I don't know whether CORE is or not.
MR. WATKINS:
Q. You don't know whether CORE is a part of it?
A. No, I don't.
Q. What about Tougaloo College?
A. I don't know whether they're a part of it.
Q. You don't know that they have taken a leading
part in it?
A. No, I don't.
Q. You can identify that as one of the many pieces
of literature that have been distributed under the name of the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
"Movement" through your organization, can't you?
A. No. I have never seen this piece before.
Q. You have never seen that before — none like it?
A. None like it — not even that, no, sir, I haven't
Q. I will ask you if you are familiar with that one
which does contain the NAACP's name on it?
A. I've never seen this one before. I haven't seen
them. I'm not saying that — I haven't seen those before.
Q. Are you familiar with any of the literature that
has been spread around Jackson here in connection with what you
call the selective buying campaign?
A . I am.
Q. Do you have any of it?
A. Not with me. You have some of it. I saw it a
few minutes ago.
Q. Well, I've shown you two. What about this one —
you've never seen that before, don't know anything about it?
THE COURT:
Mr. Watkins, do you want some kind of identifica
tion? You ask him "have you seen this'.' — the record wouldn't
show much about that, would it?
MR. WATKINS:
Yes, sir. I would like for the first one that I
showed him, the yellow one, to be marked for identification, if
(Evers - Cross) 437 .
I may, Your Honor.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) 438.
THE COURT:
That is Exhibit three for identification.
(Whereupon the above described document
was marked Defendants’ Exhibit No. 3
for identification.)
THE COURT:
All right, you can go ahead, Mr. Watkins.
MR. WATKINS:
All right, sir.
THE COURT:
Do you want these marked?
MR. WATKINS:
Please. That’s what I was waiting on — the next
exhibit. I had asked him about three of them, Judge.
THE COURT:
All right. Let the paper captioned "Negro
Shoppers, Don’t Buy on Capitol Street", be marked Defendants’
Exhibit No. 4 for identification.
(Whereupon, the above described document
was marked as Defendants’ Exhibit No. 4
for identification.)
MR. WATKINS:
Q. This pamphlet headed "Negro Shoppers and Friends",
are you familiar with that?
A. No.
439 .(Evers - Cross)
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1 Q. Never seen it before?
A. No, I haven't.
MR. WATKINS:
I would like for this to be marked for identifica
tion .
THE COURT:
That would be Defendants’ Exhibit No. 5 for iden
tification .
(Whereupon, the above described pamphlet
was marked as Defendants' Exhibit No. 5
for identification.)
MR. WATKINS:
Q. This piece of literature is addressed to the
Jackson Businessman, and it appears to have on the bottom of it,
the Jackson area boycott movement, January, 1963. I’ll ask you
if you are familiar with that?
A. No.
Q. You haven't even looked at it.
A. I know I haven't because I don't —
THE COURT:
You’re not speaking distinctly enough for me to
hear you.
THE WITNESS:
I say, no, I don’t know anything about this, be
cause first, we don't use the word "boycott", so I couldn’t be
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) 440 .
a part of it.
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I am going to object to this ques
tioning. It’s dated January, 1963 — the witness testified
that he got here in the summer of *63 and prior to that time
he had been in Chicago.
MR. WATKINS:
It so happens, Counsel, that this has been dis
tributed since January.
MRS. MORRIS:
Well, you haven't proved that, Mr. Watkins.
MR. WATKINS:
Well, I haven't had an opportunity to.
THE COURT:
All right, go ahead.
MR. WATKINS:
Q. You have not seen that?
A. No, I haven't.
MR. WATKINS:
I would like to make that an exhibit for identi
fication .
THE COURT:
Mark that Defendants* Exhibit 6 for identifica
tion .
(Whereupon, the above described document
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) 441 .
was marked as Defendants' Exhibit No. 6
for identification.)
MR. WATKINS:
Q. I hand you Exhibit "B" to the deposition of Rev
erend Ralph Edwin King, which has at the top of it: "Official
Bulletin of the North Jackson Youth Council, NAACP", and I'll
ask you if you're familiar with that?
A. No.
Q. You are not?
A. No.
Q. I hand you Exhibit D-l for identification in this
case which appears at page 13 of the deposition of Reverend
Ralph Edwin King, and I'll ask you if you are familiar with
that?
A. No, I'm not.
Q. Have you ever seen it before?
A. Never have.
Q. I show you Exhibit "C" to the deposition of Rev
erend Ralph Edwin King appearing on page 21 of that deposition,
and I'll ask you if you are familiar with that?
A. No, I'm not.
Q. Ever seen it before?
A. Never have.
Q. Do you have copies of the literature which the
NAACP has distributed in connection with this selective buying?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
442 .(Evers - Cross)
A. I don’t have any at hand, no.
Q. Where is it?
A. I don't — you don't have any there that I'm
familiar with.
Q. I say, where is it?
A. It's probably distributed. I hope it's in the
homes of people.
Q. Do you have any copies left?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. None in your office?
A. There may be.
Q. What about your attorneys?
A. My attorneys — I don't think they have — I don't
know whether they have any or not.
Q. When you return to your office, will you look and
see if you have any evidence of the type literature that the
NAACP has been distributing?
A. I see — you have some here that I have distri-
buted.
Q. You haven't identified any that I've shown you.
A. None of that though, but you have some.
Q. Well, suppose you bring me what you've got.
A. I've already sent it to Chief Pierce. He has
some already.
Q. The actions which the local chapter of the NAACP
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) 4 4 3 .
have taken in connection with these Jackson demonstrations are
in accord with the national policy of the NAACP, aren’t they?
A. I can only speak for what happened since I have
been here. We haven’t had any mass demonstrations, and as far
as the national office, I don't know whether it is or not.
Q. The selective buying campaign that you seem to
be very familiar with is in accordance with the principles of
the national organization, isn't it?
A. That's left up to the local organization — local
chapters to use any means that they feel that's beneficial and
most helpful for them in their locality. The national office
doesn't tell us what to do in the local chapters. We have a
policy — we have a copy of our Constitution, to stay within
the remnant, but what we do on a local level is left up to the
local officials.
Q. Has the national office disapproved of anything
that your organization has done since you have been the head
of it here in Jackson?
A. Yes, they have.
Q. What?
A. The bulletin you have there on "Murder, Incor
porated" is one. They disapproved of that.
Q. They disapproved your issuing that bulletin?
A. Right.
Q. Now, I haven't shown you a bulletin on "Murder,
(Evers - Cross) At a .
1 I n c o r p o r a t e d " .
2 A. I saw it v/hen I first came in.
3 Q. Since you have mentioned it, I want to ask you
4 if that's the bulletin you are talking about?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That was put out by your organization?
7 A. The local —
8 Q. Of your organization?
9 A. Yes, the local.
10 Q . The NAACP?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. May I ask you why the NA A C P does not show i t ’s
13 name anywhere on here?
14 A. Is that necessary? I admit — I don't know why.
15 Q. Were you ashamed of it?
16 A. Not a bit.
17 Q. Why didn't you put NA A C P on it?
18 A. Actually, I d i d n ’t think it was necessary.
19 Q. You prepared it?
20 A. I helped to.
21 Q. You and who else?
22 A. There were many of us got together.
23 Q. Well, who?
24 A. I ’m only responsible for me. I helped.
25 Q. Well, who with you helped to prepare it?
(Evers - Cross) 4^5.
MR. BELL:
We are going to object, Your Honor. I don’t
think that’s relevant at all.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
MR. WATKINS:
Q. Who helped you prepare it?
A. Many helped prepare it — the President of the
local branch.
Q. Who is that?
A. Mrs. Allison. My secretary in the office, and
myself.
Q. And the only identifying name that you put on it
was: "The Jackson Movement Information Bulletin", wasn’t it?
A. Right.
Q. And didn’t identify any particular organization
that had anything to do with it?
A. Right.
Q. What other organizations participated in this?
A. I said before, all ministers, all laymen, all
businessmen, all Negroes who want equal rights in Jackson
participated in this by approving this bulletin.
Q. Did the Tougaloo Chapter approve of it?
A. I didn't consult Tougaloo. I'm sure they would.
Q. It's in accordance with the principles as
(Evers - Cross) <•4: .
heretofore stated by Tougaloo, is it not?
A. I don't know about Tougaloo's policies.
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, this one document that
the witness has identified, I offer in evidence as Exhibit 7.
THE COURT:
Defendants' Exhibit 7 for identification.
MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, he has identified it.
THE COURT:
Yes. I'll let you put it in when it comes your
turn to make your part of the record. Go ahead.
MR. WATKINS:
I see. All right.
Q. Now, you have told us that in your opinion the
selective buying campaign, as you call it, has been most effec-
tive, haven't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Actually, if your people know of a Negro that
buys from a store that you list on your literature — we’ll
say any store on Capitol Street between Mill and State —
oftentimes the purchases of that person from that store are
destroyed on the street, jerked from the possession of tho
purchaser, aren't they?
A. I never heard of that.
(Evers - Cross) 44 7.
Q. You never heard of that? You haven't condoned
or instigated any of that?
A. No, we don't do anything of that sort. All we do
is ask them to use their own morals and their own self respect.
We don't instigate any violence at all.
Q. Do you know of anyone who has?
A. No.
Q. Do you know of an incident where the Negro church
purchased an organ — an organ from Werlein's and were re
quired — or made or persuaded to send it back?
A. The Mayor said that on television.
Q. Are you familiar with that?
A. I just heard the Mayor's statement.
Q. Do you have any other knowledge or information
about that?
A. No, no more than I heard him say.
Q. Did you have anything to do with suggesting or
persuading that church to send that organ back?
A. I've never been in the church.
Q. That doesn't answer my question. Did you have
anything to do with persuading or pressuring that church to
send that organ back?
A. No.
Q. Either directly or indirectly?
A. Not directly.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1 1
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) •̂4 F .
Q. Do you know anybody who has?
A. No, I don't. The only thing I know is what the
Mayor said.
Q. And you took no part in it?
A. No part at all.
Q. You state that this so-called selective buying
program is to put some people out of business, is that correct?
A. They went out of business because they didn't
want to do the things we were asking. They went out themselves
we didn't put them out.
Q. And you attributed that to the — what you call
selective buying, and what I call boycotted?
A. Not necessarily. Maybe they did it on their own.
I don't know why they did it.
Q. I understood you to say on direct that that
action had been very powerful and it showed the power of the
people you influenced to cripple and hurt — isn't that what
you said?
A. I didn't say that.
MR. BELL:
The words he put into the record certainly shows
he never indicated that, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
Well, I'll let him ask it.
MR. WATKINS:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1 1
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) 44 9 .
I will ask him on the record as to whether he
used that language, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
I’m listening to the answers, not your questions,
particularly.
MR. WATKINS:
Q. And you were willing by that campaign to put
people out of work, if necessary, if they didn’t do what you
thought they ought to do?
A. If they don’t, we are willing not to shop any
place, unless they are willing to treat us as any other custo
mer. Now, if they want to go out of business, we have no con
trol over that.
Q. Now, your campaign has told them not to shop at
any store on Capitol Street from Mill to State Street, hasn't
it?
A. I believe that’s the section.
Q. And that’s without exception?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, what do you know about how many, if any,
Negroes are employed, we’ll say, at O ’Ferrall’s Jewelry Store?
A. I know that they aren’t employed as clerks and
as stenographers and as secretaries. Negroes have been em
ployed in Jackson and in Mississippi all the time sweeping
floors. We want them in first class jobs as clerks and
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1 1
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) 4 50 .
secretaries and salesmen.
Q. Let me suggest you answer my question. Do you
know how many Negroes are employed in O'Ferrall's?
A. No.
Q. Do you know in what capacities they are employed,
if any?
A. No.
THE COURT:
I don’t believe I heard the answer.
THE WITNESS:
No, I don’t.
MR. WATKINS:
Q. Do you know of your own knowledge how people —
how Negroes are treated who shop in O’Ferrall's?
A. No, I don’t.
MR. BELL:
I think if he has the opportunity to explain —
after he answers the direct question,to explain what the bases
of his answers are.
MR. WATKINS:
He hasn’t asked to explain, Counsel.
MR. BELL:
Well, if he has the opportunity —
THE COURT:
Now, listen, you address your objections to the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) 451 .
Court. He can make any explanation he wants to. If he has
indicated, I haven't detected it.
MR. WATKINS:
Q. Now, I have selected one store on Capitol Street
by random. You didn't know whether they employed Negroes or
didn't. You didn’t know in what capacity they were employed, if
they were, and you didn't know how they treated Negroes who
came into that store to shop.
Now, do you have that same information about any
other store on Capitol Street — do you have a blanket put under
the boycott that you say is so effective?
A. I know about Woolworth's. I know they put Wool-
worth's and I know that all other stores on Capitol Street —
I'm generalizing like most people do generalize. You will get
the same treatment in any other store that you got in WoolwortHs
I think that's natural what happened in Woolworth's.
I can't go in Woolworth's and get a — and sit
down to the counter and have a sandwich. I can't go in there
and get a drink of water. I can’t go in Walgreen's and sit down
to the counter. I can't go in there and have a sandwich. I
can buy a box of aspirin, but I can't be served.
Now, those are the reasons why we said no other
store in Jackson will employ Negroes as salesmen in Capitol
Street.
Q. Now, you've mentioned two stores —
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) * 52 •
A. That I know of.
Q. — on Capitol Street. Do you know how many stores
there are on Capitol Street between Mill and State Street, and
can you name me any other store on the street that you are
familiar with either their hiring practices or how they treat
Negroes in the store?
A. I know they don't have Negro clerks. I know that.
I've gone into them and I've observed them.
Q. My question was: can you name me another store
on Capitol Street that you are personally familiar with their
hiring practices and how they treat Negroes?
MR. BELL:
I object, Your Honor. He has already answered
two or three times now what his answer is to that — to his
knowledge, none of them do.
THE COURT:
I think his question is more specific, and I'll
let him answer if he can. If he can't, just say so.
MR. WATKINS:
Q. Now, you told me two stores that you were per
sonally familiar with. Why do you boycott all the stores on
Capitol Street from State to Mill when you don’t actually know
of but two stores and what goes on inside of them with refer
ence to the treatment of Negroes?
A. Well, I know that all those stores, and I'll go on
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
(Evers - Cross) 453 .
record as saying it, have not hired Negroes as clerks and secre
taries on Capitol Street — no store.
Q. And is that the sole basis of the boycott?
A. And I know that all stores —
Q. Answer my question, please.
A. I'm going to give you some more basis — and that
not any of them address my people as Mister and Mrs. I know
this and I'll go on record as saying it.
Q. Now, again I go back — you have mentioned two
stores. You just told me you don't know about O'Ferrall's. Do
you know it about any other than the two stores you have named?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What?
A. From practical experience.
Q. Well, what are the stores?
A. The Parisian, McRae's — any of them.
Q. Have you been in their place of business?
A. I have been in McRae's personally.
Q. How about the Parisian.
A. I've been in the Parisian, but I don't know their
policies. I know they don't have Negroes hired. I know they
don't address them as Mister and Mrs. I know you can't drink
water from the water fountain. I know you can't use their wash
rooms . I know this.
Q. All right, now, you've named four stores on
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) 454 .
Capitol Street. Do you know the policies — hiring policies
and how they treat Negroes personally in any other store on
Capitol Street?
A. They are generally the same. No, I don’t.
Q. Well, you either do or you don’t.
A. I don't.
Q. And yet you lay down a boycott covering every
store on that street, didn't you?
A. We're not boycotting.
Q. And you say you will run them out of business un
less they do what you want them to?
A. I didn't say that.
Q. You don’t know whether they're doing what you want
them to or not, do you?
A. I didn't say that.
Q. I say, you don’t know whether they're doing what
you want them to or not, in nine-tenths of the stores on that
street?
A. They don’t have Negroes hired.
MR. BELL:
Let us enter an objection that this is not a
criminal defendant. The witness is a plaintiff in the case.
He is trying to answer to the best of his ability, and I don t
think it’s necessary for Counsel either to raise his voice or
yell or speak in any way different than he would speak to one
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
(Evers - Cross) 4*55 .
of the defendants.
MRS. MORRIS:
Further, Your Honor, the question is argumenta
tive .
THE COURT:
What was that?
MRS. MORRIS:
The question is argumentative. He is arguing with
the witness.
THE COURT:
Well, it may be argumentative. I'll overrule the
objection. He's on cross-examination.
MR. WATKINS:
Capitol
Q. You mentioned six people that were arrested on
Street. Were you present?
A. No.
Q. Then that was purely hearsay, wasn’t it?
A. What I saw on TV.
MR. WATKINS:
We move to strike the testimony with reference to
six arrests on Capitol Street, Your Honor, as being purely and
solely hearsay.
MR. BELL:
Just a minute, Your Honor, before you strike it.
There are certainly other methods that he could receive that
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
information in which it would be competent in his testimony
here today.
THE COURT:
I can hardly hear you. The acoustics are so bad
in here.
MR. BELL:
I’m sorry. I was saying that we would certainly
object to the striking of his testimony, in that there are
competent ways — there are other methods in which he could
have heard and received this information other than witnessing
it personally, which would be competent for him to testify
here this morning.
THE COURT:
Yes, I'll overrule the objection. I mean, I’ll
overrule your motion and sustain your objection.
MR. WATKINS:
Q, You are familiar with the fact, are you not, that
!
the lunch counter in both Walgreen’s and Woolworth’s has been
I
closed?
A. Yes, sir, now they are.
Q. And you are continuing your boycott against all
stores on Capitol Street from State to Mill without knowing
the hiring practices or how they treat Negroes in those stores,
other than the ones you've mentioned, haven't you?
(Evers - Cross) 456.-- .— ----------------- — - — "
A. I know how they have treated them.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) 457 ._________________________ ________________ -______________________ __I—
Q. And you are continuing your boycott?
A. We're not boycotting them. We're just not spend
ing .
Q. And you are urging all other people not to spend,
aren't you?
A. It's up to them. We ask them not to spend.
MR. WATKINS:
No further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
Anything further?
MR. BELL:
Just one or two questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
All right.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
Q. Now, you indicated, Mr. Evers, that you had only
personally experienced the type of situation that you are trying
to solve through the selective buying campaign in a few of the
stores on Capitol Street, is that correct?
A. Right.
Q. Now, have you received any other information —
have you received information concerning the practices and
policies of other stores from members of the organization
which you represent?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) f r.
MR. WATKINS:
If it please the Court, we object to that as
hearsay.
THE COURT:
I'll overrule the objection. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS:
Would you rephrase that, please?
MR. BELL:
Q. Well, let me ask you this way. In your position
as Field Secretary, do members of your organization, the NAACP,
bring to you complaints against discrimination?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you received such reports concerning dis
criminatory policies and things from other stores on Capitol
Street than those you mentioned?
MR. WATKINS:
If the Court please, we object to that. That’s
giving us no opportunity to cross-examine the person alleged
to have been discriminated against. That’s just a blanket
covering every store on Capitol Street.
MR. BELL:
Well, I think there’s an adequate precedent on
this all the way back to the officials, including the Mayor in
this case, have been permitted to testify as to things that
they received officially as part of their duties.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
THE COURT:
I don't think you could prove discrimination by
any such testimony, but I believe the testimony is competent
that it's said to exist, so I’ll overrule the objection.
MR. BELL:
Q. Did you indicate that you have or have not re
ceived reports as to other stores on Capitol Street?
A. I have.
Q. Now, have you received any reports that any of
the stores on Capitol Street have either before or now adopted
the various steps as far as treating Negroes equally, hiring
them equally, allowing them to use their facilities on a de
segregated basis? Have you received such reports as to any of
the stores?
MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, we object to that for the same reason.
It's something that somebody told him about Capitol Street.
THE COURT:
It wouldn’t prove the fact — I certainly say
that, and I would sustain it for that reason, but I’ll over
rule it for the reason that I think it’s competent to estab
lish the contention that discrimination exists.
MR. BELL:
Q. Did you answer that question?
A. I haven't. Would you ask it again, please?
(Evers - Redirect)_________ * - . I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Redirect) *Si .
Q. The question was: whether you have received re
ports that any of the stores on Capitol Street have indicated
that they would adhere to the various steps in your selective
buying campaign?
A. I would like to answer it, but I wouldn’t like to
give the store, if that’s possible. Stores have indicated
that — one or two, in particular, would be willing to abide
by the rules and open their doors, but they were afraid that
reprisals would come from their fellow citizens and others, so
therefore, they won’t even make the first step.
I have gotten the report that there are some who
are willing to do the things we are asking, but they are afraic
that reprisals would come from their neighbors and others, so
therefore, they don’t want to make the first move.
Q. Are there stores outside of the Capitol Street
area which adhered to segregated policies, but which now have
indicated to you that they will serve Negroes on an equal
basis and upgrade them in jobs?
A. They have.
Q. When you receive such reports, is there any rea
son why the selective buying campaign is maintained against
such stores?
A. They are not maintained against them.
Q. Are the people who you represent advised, through
leaflets and otherwise, what the changed policy is concerning
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
23
these stores?
A. Right. Through mass meetings and leaflets, we
advise that these persons have complied with our request and
ask them to go and show your appreciation by spending your
money back with them.
Q. Are you and your organization willing or not will
ing to do the same thing as to stores on Capitol Street?
A. Anyone, yes, we are.
MR. BELL:
(Evers - Redirect) 4G1.
I think that's all.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q. Counsel asked you if you had been advised as to
how other stores on Capitol Street either hired or treated
Negroes, and you stated that you had been. By whom were you
so advised?
MR, BELL:
Your Honor, on some of these,let me state my
objection to this kind of question this way. We have no ob
jection to Mr. Evers and some of the other witnesses giving
the Court the information that is requested as to who provided
this information and who helped with this, but I think there
is a serious question of privilege here; that is, while not
carved out of the traditional idea of the lawyer-client
privilege and the doctor-patient privilege, I think for the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Recross) 4f>2.
same reasons on which those privileges are based, the persons
in the position as Mr. Evers have a privilege to, either one,
not give the information as to names in this line of question
ing, or to give those to you in such circumstances so that they
would not become public knowledge.
I think it requires some taking of judicial
notice as to the situation that exists in Jackson and in Mis
sissippi, but I request that this be done and that the names
of such persons, if you feel that they are competent, be given
to you in such a way that they wouldn’t become public knowledge
THE COURT:
Let me hear that question again. Repeat the ques
tion to me, please.
MR. WATKINS:
Q. On redirect examination, you told your counsel
over my objection that you had had reports with respect to
other stores on Capitol Street as to their hiring practices
and how they treated Negroes, and my question is, who gave you
those reports?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, before that is answered, let me make
another objection. One of the bases for the ruling by the
Supreme Court that membership in this organization need not be
made public is to protect that freedom of association in such
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Recross) 4o 3 .
stp.tes ps Mississippi, where there are reprisals taken against
people i’or those type activities, and I think the same thing
is applicable in this instance, so far as the individuals arc
concerned. I would base my objection further on the First
Amendment.
THE COURT:
I don’t see any element of privilege in this
particular question. I'll overrule the objection.
THE WITNESS:
I don’t know the persons who told me.
MR. WATKINS:
Q. About what store were they talking?
A. They didn't name the store.
Q. Then when you told the Court that you had had
reports from people about other stores on Capitol Street, you
don’t know who the person was or what they said or what store
they were talking about?
A. I know what they said.
Q. You don’t know what store they were talking
about?
A. I have an idea.
Q. But you don’t know?
A. I have an idea. As I said, I wouldn’t v/ant to
give the store, even if I knew. It wouldn’t be fair to give
the name of the store.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Recross) *6 4 .
Q. Now, you have told me about Capitol Street. Of
course, your campaign is aimed at stores in addition to those
on Capitol Street, isn’t it?
A. Right, yes.
Q. And it has in particular aimed at Hart’s Bakery
hasn't it?
A. That's one on the selective buying list.
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to this. It’s not proper
redirect — it was not brought out on cross-examination.
THE COURT:
I don't remember that on cross-examination
either, Mr. Watkins.
MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, they went into this question of this
selective buying and why they were doing it. I thought that
was sufficient to entitle me to go into it a little further.
THE COURT:
I think there would have to be an end to examina
tion. I'll sustain the objection.
MR. WATKINS:
Q. Now, on redirect, you stated that some stores in
Jackson had agreed to do what your organization wanted done,
and that therefore, the boycott had been lifted as to said
stores. What stores were those?
(Evers - Recross) /? I- o •
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
A. I would rather not —
MR. BELL:
Just a minute, Mr. Evers. Your Honor, again we
would like to renew that objection on privileged information
to preserve some of these folks from reprisals.
THE COURT:
I'll sustain that objection.
MR. WATKINS:
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Your Honor, let me state for the record here.
That's a fact that they did not have to bring out unless they
wanted to. They voluntarily brought out the fact.
THE COURT:
Yes, sir, but I think you've got some innocent
parties that might get hurt unnecessarily by an answer which
couldn't be too relevant to any issue here, and I'll sustain
the objection.
MR. WATKINS:
Q. Do you have any literature that has been issued
by your organization in connection with releasing any stores
from the boycott?
A. No.
Q. You stated that there was some, didn't you?
A. No.
Q. I thought you said you advised the public.
25 A. Yes, sir. I don't have any on hand.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Recross)
Q. But there was some?
A. They were advised through public means, through
telephones and some bills.
Q. And what did those bills say?
A. It only lists those that you have — those that
are still on the selective buying list. We left those off who
aren't on the selective buying list. Those that are on the
selective buying list are on your list. Now, if their names
don't appear on there, then they know they are off the selec
tive buying list.
We don't want to incriminate them or have them
come in contact with these outsiders who would inflict some
type of hardship on them, so we don't go around calling their
names.
Q. What connection do you have with the national
organization?
A. I am Field Secretary for the State of Mississip
pi.
Q. Who pays you?
A. I am paid out — I am given expense out of New
York.
Q. Who pays your salary?
A. They pay my salary, what little it is. It's more
or less — almost a voluntary thing.
Q. Do you make periodic reports to the New York
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Recross) 467 .
office?
A. Do I make reports?
Q. Yes.
A. If they request them,I do. I don't have any set
time to make reports.
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I'm going to object to this line of
questioning, too. I don't think that this was brought out on
redirect.
THE COURT:
I can't hear what you are saying.
MRS. MORRIS:
I don't think that we brought this out on re
direct, and this line of questioning is not proper.
THE COURT:
I sustain the objection.
MR. WATKINS:
That's all.
MR. McLENDON:
If the Court please, we represent four of these
defendants. I haven't had an opportunity to cross-examine
this witness. Could we carry on that line of questioning?
THE COURT:
Who are you representing?
MR. McLENDON:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
The head of the Highway Safety Patrol, the
Secretary of State, the Governor, and the Attorney General.
THE COURT:
I think you all ought to agree on some one coun
sel to conduct your examination, so we don't have to switch to
too many. I'll let you ask him that question though.
MR. McLENDON:
Well, I had a series of questions, Your Honor,
along that line.
THE COURT:
All right. I don't know of any reason why this
examination couldn't be conducted by one counsel, because it
seems to me that your interest is pretty much identical.
MR. McLENDON:
■
Well, it is, Your Honor, except on two counts. |
The interest of Mr. Birdsong is quite identical with the other 1
defendants, but the interest of the Governor and the Secre
tary of State and the Attorney General are on the second count.
THE COURT:
I understand we haven't touched on the second
count. That's the mandatory injunction feature, isn't it?
MR. McLENDON:
Yes, sir.
THE COURT:
(Evers - Recross) 468.
I just don't recall any testimony touching on
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) 4 o I .
that. Do you have some cross-examination on something that
has been touched on on direct?
MR. McLENDON:
Yes, sir.
THE COURT:
All right, go ahead.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. McLENDON:
Q. Would you state to the Court again your duties
to the national corporation — what duties do you perform for
them?
A. I'm Field Secretary for the State of Mississippi.
Q. Do you make periodic reports to the national
organization?
A. Yes.
Q. What periods do those reports cover?
A. It all depends on what the national office re
quests — the period they request.
Q. Well, since you have been national — strike the
nation — state secretary since June of last year, how many
reports have you made?
A. I don’t know. I don’t keep a record of them.
Q. I believe you stated that the national corpora
tion pays you your salary, is that right?
A. Yes.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1 1
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) 470 .
Q. Do they pay your expense account?
A. Well, that’s included in the salary.
Q. Does the national organization pay the rent on
your office that you maintain on Lynch Street?
A. No, we pay our own rent,
Q. You do maintain that office. Do you rent it or
do you own it?
A. Rent it.
Q. And you maintain a staff in that office, is that
right?
A. Right.
THE COURT:
Does the New York corporation have an office in
Mississippi?
THE WITNESS:
No more than ours.
THE COURT:
Well, is that an office in Mississippi?
THE WITNESS:
Yes, I guess it would be.
THE COURT:
So your answer would be that you do maintain —
that is that the National Association for the Advancement of
Colored People does maintain an office in Jackson, is that
right?
(Evers - Cross) 471.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1 1
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
MR. McLENDON:
Q. And that office is located where?
A. 1072 Lynch Street, the Masonic Temple Building.
Q. In the City of Jackson?
A. Right.
Q. Now, that office maintains a telephone in the
name of the national organization, does it not?
A. That's right.
Q. Who pays that telephone bill?
A. The local pays part and the national pays part.
Q. So part of the expense of maintaining that
office is borne by the national corporation?
A. Right.
Q. As a part of your duties as Field Secretary of
this national corporation, do you hold meetings in the state
of Mississippi?
A. That's right.
Q. In the name of the corporation?
A. Right.
Q. Do you distribute literature in the state of
Mississippi in the name of this foreign corporation?
A. I beg your pardon.
Q. Do you distribute literature in the State of
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1 1
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Evers - Cross) 472 .
Mississippi in the name of this foreign corporation?
A. Did you say "foreign corporation"?
Q. The New York corporation?
A. Oh. Occasionally, yes, we have certain types of
literature. It depends — pamphlets and such — I believe you
have some of them there.
Q. Now, when you hold these meetings, do you col
lect funds to support the local and the national organization?
A. Not necessarily. Occasionally people contri
bute. It's a non-profit organization and occasionally people
do contribute, but we don't hold meetings just to raise funds.
Q. I recognize that, but as a part of the meeting,
do you permit people to make contributions?
A. Sure.
Q. Both to the national and to the local?
A. It's always to the local and then we disperse
it whichever way we see fit.
Q. You disperse the funds to the national from the
local, is that right?
A. In most cases.
Q. And all of these activities by you are in sup
port of the national corporation, are they?
A. Now, as I said before, not all of them. We do
some things on our own, but usually we're supposed to clear
them with the national.
(Evers - Cross) 4'.’3 .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1 1
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q. And your primary duty is owed to the nations 1?
A. Pardon.
Q. Your primary duty, as Field Secretary, is to
the national corporation, is that right?
A. Of the State of Mississippi.
Q. Of the State of Mississippi?
A. Right.
Q. But your duties are owed to the national corpora
tion — your allegiance is to your employer?
MR. BELL:
Your Honor, I think the witness would be able
to — I don't think he’s trying not to be responsive, but I
think the questions are so framed in trying to get the issues
of law rather than the actual facts.
THE COURT:
I'll let him rephrase his question — and be
sure you understand his question before you answer it. All
right.
MR. McLENDON:
Q. Are your duties the same as those of Medgar
Evers?
A. That's right.
Q. You are now performing the duties that he per
formed?
25 A. R i g h t .
(Evers - Cross) 4 74 .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1 1
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
How long did he perform those duties?
A. I believe he — he actually was made Field
Secretary — hired as Field Secretary in December of 1954, up
until he was killed on June the 11th or 12th of 1963.
Q. Was there a Field Secretary before him?
A. No.
Q. He was the first Field Secretary and he served in
that capacity from *54 until June of ’63?
A. There was not a paid Field Secretary — he and
I both had worked the same, but he was the first paid Field
Secretary.
Q. This corporation then started paying a Field
Secretary and maintaining an office in 1954?
A. Right.
Q. And the activities carried on by your brother
as predecessor to that office, are similiar to those you now
carry on?
A. Right.
MR. McLENDON:
That’s all, Your Honor.
MR. BELL:
I don’t believe we have any further questions,
Your Honor.
THE COURT:
25 All right. Now, next time we’ll have the direct
(Allison - Direct) 475 .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
1 1
1 2
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
examination and then we’ll have both crosses and then the re
direct .
MR. McLENDON:
Your Honor, I want to apologize for that. Tom
closed out the cross-examination before I had a chance to tell
him that I had some questions to ask.
THE COURT:
All right, thank you. We'll take a ten minute
recess.
(After a ten minute recess, the Court resumed
as follows:
MR. BELL:
We call as our next witness, the plaintiff, Mrs.
Doris Allison.
MRS. DORIS ALLISON
After having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
Q. Would you state your name and your address,
please?
A. Mrs. Doris Allison, 2927 Booker Washington
Street, Jackson, Mississippi.
Q. How long have you resided in Jackson, Missis
sippi?
25 A. I was born and reared here in Jackson,
(Allison - Direct) 476 .
Mississippi.
Q. Would you state your race?
A. Negro.
Q. What do you do for a living, Mrs. Allison?
A. Housewife.
Q. Do you have any job?
A. I am now president of the Jackson Branch of the
NAACP.
Q. I was asking — do you do any work other than
as a housewife?
A. That’s all.
Q. Do you have any organizational offices?
A. None other than the NAACP.
THE COURT:
Speak up a little louder, please.
THE WITNESS:
None other than the NAACP.
MR. BELL:
Q. How long have you been with the NAACP?
A. As an officer, since January, 1963, but prior
to that, I did participate in all of their meetings.
Q. How far back have you participated in them?
A. I would say the latter part of '54 or there
about — either the latter part of ’54 or the early part of
’ 55.
(Allison - Direct) 477 .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q. Now, what office do you hold in the NAACP?
A. I am president of the Jackson Branch of the
NAACP.
Q. Would you tell the Court how you became active
in the NAACP?
A. Well, after participating in the meetings — I
was a personal friend of the late Mr. Medgar Evers, and I was
a seamstress, and as I would visit him from time to time at
his office at 1072 Lynch Street —
Q. You were a what?
A. I was a seamstress —
Q. I see.
A. — before I taken over the office, but on visit
ing him, you know, and he said that he could use me, that he
was having trouble getting the Negroes to come in and work with
him because they were afraid of intimidation and reprisals,
and that’s when I offered my services.
I first served as Chairman of Membership, and
from then — January, 1963, is when I was elected to office
as president of the branch,
Q. In your activities as membership chairman and
as president, have you experienced any difficulties in getting
memberships for the NAACP?
A. Yes, I have.
25 MR. WATKINS:
(Allison - Direct) 478
If it please the Court, we object to that as
immaterial.
THE COURT:
Well, go ahead. I'll overrule the objection,
She has answered. Ask her something else.
MR. BELL:
Q. Would you indicate whether you have had any
difficulties?
A. I have.
Q. Would you explain those difficulties?
A. Well, the Negroes are just afraid.
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, she is stating the
opinions of another person.
THE COURT:
Yes. I sustain the objection.
MR. BELL:
Q. Would you indicate how you knew about the fear
of the Negroes to take membership?
A. Well, that's what I was told on numerous occa
sions .
MR. WATKINS:
hearsay.
May it please the Court, we object to that as
MR. BELL:
(Allison - Direct) 479.
1 That's certainly not hearsay. She is told.
2 THE COURT:
3 I overrule the objection.
4 MR. BELL:
5 Was the answer completed?
6 THE COURT:
7 She has answered it.
8 MR. BELL:
9 Q. Now, as the branch president of the Jackson
10 Branch, what are your goals and aims?
11 A. Our goals and aims of the NAACP is for the
12 betterment of the race, especially the Negro race here in
13 M i s s i s s i p p i .
14 Q. Are there any problems that you see that you
15 are trying to correct?
16
! A. There is. The discrimination against Negroes
n i in public facilities, of the schools and of the voting rights.
18
1 MR. WATKINS:
19 May it please the Court, we object to that and
20 move to strike thbse items about which she complains which
21 are not involved in this litigation.
22 THE COURT:
23
24
Well, I'll overrule the objection. I don't
think it's involved, but go ahead.
25 MR. BELL:
(Allison - Direct) 480 .
Q. Now, what efforts have you made to correct what
you feel are problems in Mississippi and in Jackson - what
efforts have you and your branch?
A. Well, first of all, at the offset of our efforts
to lead some relief to this system — at first, we asked for a
meeting with the City officials, to sit down and talk over our
grievances, and when this was denied to us, that's when we
decided to bring our grievances to the public in demonstra
tions, sit-ins and picketing.
Q. Have you ever personally participated in any of
these protest efforts?
A. I have.
Q. When was that?
A. On the 29th of May, 1963.
Q. What did you do on that day?
A. I picketed in front of Woolworth’s.
Q. Was there anyone with you?
A. There was.
Q. How many people?
A. There were five people involved in this particular
demonstration, and I made six.
Q. Were you carrying signs?
.
A. I was.
Q. What did those signs say?
A. " D o n ’t shop on Capitol Street".
(Allison - Direct) 481.
Q. And what was the reason for the request not to
shop on Capitol Street?
A. Because the Negroes, as long as I can remember,
they have not been able to work in jobs on Capitol Street
other than maids or busboys. They were not treated as other
customers, and using the title of Mister and Mrs. or Miss.
Q. Do you have any other problems in that regard?
A. Yes. There were no restroom facilities for
Negroes. I personally would avoid going to Capitol Street on
the day that I had to take some medicine, because on some
occasions, I would have to turn and go down to the Illinois
Central Railroad Station to use restroom facilities or around
on Capitol Street to use restroom facilities, and then come
back and resume my shopping.
Q. You said "around on Capitol Street" — did you
mean —
A. On Farish Street. Pardon me.
Q. Now, I want you to speak from your own knowledge,
Mrs. Allison. Have you personally received these rebuffs as
far as using the restrooms, or refusing to call you Mrs.,
addressing you by a courtesy title, and some of the other
problems — have you personally experienced these things?
A . I have.
Q. Over what period of time?
A. All my life. I am forty-six years old and I have
(Allison - Direct) 462 .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
HI
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20 l!
21
22
23
24
25
encountered this since I was able to go to Capitol Street
alone.
Q. Now, is it or is it not correct that this was the
reason for your protest on May 29th?
A. That's right.
Q. About what time in the day was this protest made?
A. Approximately 12:15.
Q. And can you tell me how the protest was carried
out — that is, where were you walking in front of Woolworth's,
how were you spaced out?
A. Well, I would say we were spaced approximately
six to eight yards apart walking just as near the edge of the
walk as we possibly could get to the extent I would always
have to avoid the parking meters there on the edge of the
sidewalk.
Q. Were you making any noises of any type, loud
singing or shouting or anything of that nature?
A. No.
Q. Were individuals who were passing able to get by
on the street?
A. Yes.
Q. The individuals who were passing, what reaction,
if any, did they have to your being present there?
A. We wasn't there — I wasn't there long enough
before I was arrested.
(Allison - Direct) 483 .
Q. Well, approximately how long were you there be
fore the police came up to you?
A. Approximately two to three minutes.
Q. Then what happened?
A. Then the policeman came up and said that I was
under arrest.
7 Q-
8 A.
9 Q.
10 that time?
11 A.
12 Q-
13 A.
14 off to jai
15 Q-
16 were arres
17 A.
18 Q.
19 mean here
20 A.
21 Q.
22 A.
23 Q.
24 A.
25 MR. BELL:
I d o n ’t r e m e m b e r .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 I
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
No further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
Jack, I believe we’ll take a recess here until
1:30.
(After a lunch recess, Court resumed as
follows:
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TRAVIS:
(Allison - Direct) 484.
Q. You have testified previously on direct examina
tion that you were arrested by the Police Department of the
City of Jackson on May 29th, 1963, is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And I believe you stated that you were later tried
in the Municipal Court of the City of Jackson?
A. I said there was a preliminary hearing.
Q. All right, and you were represented there by —
who was your attorney?
A. My attorney was Jack Young.
Q. Jack Young, and he represented you in that pro
ceeding, and I believe you told the Court also that you
didn’t know what the disposition was of that case in that
Court at that time?
A. Correct.
Q. And you were there?
A. Correct.
(Allison - Direct) 4F5 .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12I
13;
14
15 I!
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q. When the case was tried?
A. Correct.
Q. Were there any of the other plaintiffs with you
in that group at that time — in this case?
A. There was. All of them that was arrested at the
time that I was, they were present.
Q. The question I asked you was whether or not there
were any of the plaintiffs in this lawsuit that you are a
plaintiff in here, with you on that occasion and were, in fact,
arrested at the same time you were?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Do you know who was with you — the other five?
A. When I said -
Q. You said there were six of you — you and five
others were arrested on the 29th. I'm asking you if you know
who the other five were?
A. I know their faces, but not their names.
Q. How did you get down on Capitol Street with these
five people that you do not know their names?
A. I did.
Q. Who set it up for you?
A. Well, it was set up within the organization.
Q. Within what organization?
A . The NAACP.
Q. And who set it up for the NAACP?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Allison - Direct) 48c .
A. I couldn't — I don't know that.
Q. Isn't it a fact that Willie Ludden, one of the
plaintiffs in this case, was with you this particular time?
A. He was not.
Q. And he is a national officer of the NAACP, is he
not, out of the national office?
A. He is.
Q. Now, I believe you heard the previous witness
testifying about this selective buying campaign, did you not?
A. Correct.
Q. And you were present in the Courtroom at the time
he testified, were you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And he stated that he was the Field Secretary of
the NAACP for the State of Mississippi, and that he, I believe,
took his orders from the national office in New York?
A. Not always — that's not always the case.
Q. I see. Well, now, you testified that you were
the president of the local NAACP chapter?
A. Right.
Q. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, what is the local NAACP chapter?
A. I works with all the committees that's function
ing within the NAACP branch.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Allison - Cross) 487 .
THE COURT:
Speak up a little louder, please.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Who elected you president — by what group were
you elected president?
A. The executive board of the NAACP.
Q. For the State of Mississippi?
A. State of Mississippi — I mean, Jackson.
Q. The City of Jackson?
A. Local branch, that’s right.
Q. Local branch — so then you are the one that’s in
charge of this selective buying or boycott,or whatever it is,
movement?
A. No, I’m not.
Q. Who is in charge of that?
A. Well, the movement is chaired by Reverend
R. L. T. Smith.
Q. Now, that’s the Jackson movement you are talking
about?
A. Yes.
THE COURT:
Reverend who?
THE WITNESS:
Reverend R. L. T. Smith.
MR. TRAVIS:
(Allison - Cross) 488
Q. What is the purpose of this selective buying cam
paign?
A. Well, the sole purpose of this selective buying
campaign is to bring to the attention of the officials of
Jackson that the Negroes desire to participate in jobs as
clerks at the same price as whites, and being able to work as
clerks, other than maids or busboys, and also, if I may say it.
Q. Go ahead.
A. That they can be treated with courtesy in using
the title of Mister or Mrs. or Miss, and be able to use the
restrooms, be waited on at lunch counters.
Q. Now, you said you wanted to call that to the
attention of the officials of the City of Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. You don't think that the officials of the City of
Jackson have anything to do with the operation of these stores
on Capitol Street or anywhere else, do you?
A. We feel if we have any grievances to bring, that
would be the proper party to bring them to, the officials of
the City.
Q. And you are talking now of complaints against
businesses — private businesses on Capitol Street?
A . I am.
Q. And you say the only place you can bring those
complaints are to the officials of the City of Jackson?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Allison - Cross) 489 .
A. We use the selective buying campaign against the
merchants of Mississippi because the Negroes are not hired as
clerks on Capitol Street.
Q. Now, the previous witness testified — go ahead.
A. They are not allowed to use the restroom facili
ties, public drinking water fountains, as other customers here
in Jackson, Mississippi.
Q. All right. Now, the previous witness testified
that he realized that this crippled and hurt those who defied
the NAACP in the Jackson movement. Is that the way you under
stand it, too?
A. Would you repeat that question, please?
Q. He testified that this movement crippled and hurt
those who defied it — it crippled or hurt them, and that was
the purpose of it.
MR. BELL:
I object, Your Honor. I don’t think that is
either the words or the sense of the previous testimony. I
don’t recall any testimony like that.
THE COURT:
Well, she’s on cross-examination. I’ll let him
ask her.
THE WITNESS:
Well, the only way I know to answer it — this
was the previous witness's idea — thoughts.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Allison - Cross) 490 .
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. What are your thoughts as to how that affects
private businesses.
A. Well, as a whole, we are not doing this to affect
anything. We just only want to bring our grievances to the
attention of the merchants.
Q. Now, is the Jackson chapter of the NAACP a part
of this Jackson movement?
A. I would say it is.
Q. Now, you are president of the Jackson chapter of
the NAACP. If anybody would know, you would.
A. I know, but the movement is an organization. It
is affiliated with the NAACP, but they have the chairmen —
their own chairmen and officers.
Q. Is the NAACP affiliated with the Jackson movement
or is the Jackson movement affiliated with the NAACP?
A. The Jackson movement is affiliated with the NAACP
Q. So then the Jackson movement would be a part of
the NAACP?
A. I would say so.
Q. The previous witness testified that the Jackson
chapter was responsible for the printing of this particular
document that I hand you, Exhibit D-7 for identification, to
the witness, Charles Evers. Can you identify that document
for the Court?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Allison - Cross) 4 9 1 .
A. I have soon this document. It was completed when
I seen it, and the only thing that I had to say about it was
that I was in accord with the majority.
Q. All right. So then the previous witness was
correct when he said that this was published by the Jackson
Chapter of the NAACP?
A. I didn't say that.
Q. What would you say?
A. I would say that this pamphlet was put out by
the movement, and as I previously stated, when this was brought
to my attention, I just told them that I was in accord with the
majority.
Q. So you approved then, this publication?
A. I would have to say yes.
Q. I hand you Exhibit D-3 for identification to the
witness Evers, and ask you if you can identify it?
A. I can't say that I can identify this as an indi
vidual, because I have —
Q. Well, let me ask you this.
THE COURT:
She didn't finish her answer, I don't believe.
MR. TRAVIS:
THE WITNESS:
Excuse me, I'm sorry.
Individually, I can't say that I have seen this
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Allison - Cross) 492 .
before. I have saw, on occasion, several pamphlets, hot T
can’t say — just taking a guess — I have saw this one.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Now, that is a pamphlet of the Jackson movement,
is it not?
A. Yes, it says here.
Q. And that is the same movement that we were talk
ing about previously that was responsible for this other pub
lication here?
A. Over a period of time, I have saw several pam
phlets, but I can't say individually I have saw this one.
Q. Well, may I ask you this. Are all these pam
phlets in the same general nature?
A. I would say yes.
Q. Have you had a part in distributing any of these
pamphlets or causing them to be distributed?
A. I have not, no.
Q. Is the Jackson NAACP Youth Council a part of
your organization?
A. We do have a youth council.
Q. It's also an affiliate then of the Jackson NAACP
Chapter?
A. Yes.
Q. I hand you Exhibit D-l for identification to the
witness Hurley, and call your attention to that document, and
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Allison - Cross) 493 .
ask you if you've ever seen one like it before?
A. I have not ever saw this pamphlet before.
Q. Have you ever seen one similar to it?
A. I can't say that I have.
Q. You notice that the — one of your affiliates,
the Jackson NAACP Youth Council, is listed on this pamphlet?
A. Yes. I also see SNCC and CORE. No, I have never
saw this pamphlet before.
Q. All right. Do you approve of what you see there?
A. I would have to answer yes.
Q. I hand you another exhibit — Exhibit D-6 for
identification to the witness Evers, and ask you if you are
familiar with that instrument, and if the Jackson Chapter of
the NAACP had anything to do with that?
A. I'm not familiar with this because we never use
the title "boycott". We never use that.
Q. Well, then you don't know —
A. I have never saw this before. I have never saw
that before.
Q. And you don't know who is responsible for send
ing it out?
A . I do no t.
Q. Is your organization, in any way, associated with
the Jackson Area Boycott Movement?
A. Would you repeat that?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
29
(Allison - Cross) 4 J 4 .
Q. Is your chapter, the chapter of which you are
president, in any way affiliated with the Jackson Area Boycott
Movement?
A. No, we are not, because that’s one word that we
do not use, is boycott in any phrases.
THE COURT:
We are making some substitutions of people who
are no longer in office. Mr. J. R. Gilfoy, Sheriff of Hinds
County, he’s not in office. He has a successor.
MR. BELL:
I understand. When we made the substitution of
the Governor, the other side indicated that that was the only
office that had changed, but perhaps we can prepare an appro
priate motion under Rule 25. Thank you.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Now, you testified that there were — that cer
tain people had told you that certain practices were carried
on in the private businesses downtown. Have you ever talked
to the manager of any store on Capitol Street or anywhere else
in the City of Jackson about these complaints that you allege
you have?
A. As far as using the restrooms and drinking out
of the water fountains, and so forth?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
29
(Allison - Cross) 495 .
Q. Whatever your complaints are — I'm asking if y
ever talked to any of them about it?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever made any complaint to any person
nel people in any of these organizations or businesses on
Capitol Street or elsewhere in the City of Jackson, personall
A. I can't say I made complaints, but I can defi
nitely say that have asked them any number of times over the
years if it would be permissible for me to use the restroom
or sometimes to drink water. They were very polite, but they
answered no. They said they had no colored facilities.
Q- All right, now let me ask you in personnel,
hiring — you made some statements about hiring practices.
I'm asking you if you have ever discussed this with any of the
personnel people in any of these private businesses in the
City of Jackson — these alleged hiring problems or complaints
that you have?
A. I have — not to the merchants on Capitol Street
but I very definitely have at the grocery stores out.
Q. What grocery store and what manager have you
complained to?
A. Well, I talked with the proprietor of Glorioso.
I also talked to the proprietor of —
Q. Well, now, Glorioso's is not one of these men-
tioned in your boycott, is it?
(Allison - Cross) 496 .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A. He has been.
Q. Well, go ahead, tell me about any other managers
or store owners that you have talked to — their names.
A. The proprietor — I don’t know all of their
names. The proprietor of Star Market — Super Market.
Q. Is Star Market on your boycott list?
A. It has been.
Q. Is it on there now?
A. No, it’s not.
Q. All right, who else have you complained to —
what other stores — private businesses?
A. Well, we didn’t so much complain to an indivi
dual, but we did complain to the Mayor and his answer was
this —
Q. What man?
A. The Mayor, and his answer was this: that the
merchants were free to hire any person that they choose.
Q. In other words, he told you that they were pri
vate businesses and that they could carry on their businesses
as they saw fit, and it was no business of the City of Jackson?
A. Correct.
Q. And that’s the only complaint you have against
the City of Jackson in that regard?
A. I would say yes.
Q. All right. Now, who tells you what to do in
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Allison - Cross) 497 .
relation to the activities of your Jackson movement? Who
interprets these resolutions and so on of the national NAACP?
A. Mr. Gloster Current of New York City. He is
over all the branches.
Q. And is he the one you take your orders from?
A. Correct.
Q. And he is director of branches of the — he is
the national director of branches of the NAACP out of New
York?
A. He is, yes.
MR. TRAVIS:
I don't have anything further, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
Mr. McLendon.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. McLENDON:
Q. As president of the local chapter of the NAACP
are you a paid employee of that organization?
A. My service is voluntary.
Q. I beg your pardon.
A. My service is voluntary.
Q. How often does the local chapter meet?
A. In what way — meet?
Q. Well, do you have meetings?
A. You mean as far as the board meeting is
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
(Allison - Cross) .
concerned?
Q. The organization, whatever it is?
A. What 1 mean, were you referring to a mass meet
ing or a board meeting?
Q. Well, suppose you describe both of them and toll
us how often each one meets.
A. All right. We have a regular branch meeting
the first Monday of every month. We have an executive board
meeting the first Wednesday of each month. We have a mass
meeting twice a week on Tuesday night and Thursday night.
Q. Now, is the Field Secretary, who is an employee
of the corporation, is he in regular attendance at those meet-
ings?
A. No, he’s not.
Q. Does he ever attend them?
A. Sometimes.
Q. Does he attend as an official of the corpora-
tion?
A. How do you mean?
Q. Well, is he in charge of the meeting when he is
there?
A. Definitely not.
Q. Who is?
A. As a whole, the officers, but very often, Mr.
Evers doesn’t be present.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Allison - Cross) 499 .
Q. Now, do you distribute literature at these
regular meetings?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you collect any funds at these regular meet
ings?
A. Sometimes, yes — sometimes, no.
Q. How about the mass meetings?
A. Those that want to contribute, we will accept.
Q. Do you, as a member of this corporation, pay a
membership dues to it?
A. No, there are no dues as far as you being
affiliated — as a member is concerned, no.
Q. How do you become a member?
A. Well, you just take out a membership.
Q. How do you take out a membership?
A. Just say I want to become a member of the NAACP,
and you can pay it all, you can pay the minimum fee or what
ever amount.
Q. But there is a dues payment when you become a
member?
A. When you become a member, definitely.
Q. Tell the Court,if you know, what is done with
that money?
A. The paying of these fines for one thing.
Q. Does it go to the Field Secretary?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Allison - Cross) s o o .
A. No, definitely not. The Field Secretary don’t
even see this money.
Q. When you became a member, who did you pay?
A. Well, they have a membership committee, and you
can take out membership with any of these members of the commit
tee — the board members.
Q. I'm asking you what becomes of the money that you
pay for membership in this organization?
A. What becomes of it — well, whatever debts that
we incur.
Q. Well, does it remain in the local treasury?
A. A portion.
Q. All right, tell us about the portion that does
not remain in the local treasury. Where does it go?
A. National office.
Q. So each member of the corporation pays to become
a member of the local and the national corporation at the same
time?
A. Yes.
Q. And the initiation fee or membership dues is
divided between the local and the national?
A. Correct.
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I might speed things along. All this
information is in exhibits already, except for the Constitution
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Allison - Cross) SOI .
THE COURT:
I'm sorry, I can't hear you.
MRS. MORRIS:
All this information is in the exhibits one and
two already. It’s not a secret exactly.
THE COURT:
I see .
MR. McLENDON:
Those exhibits were introduced this morning and
I haven’t had a chance to read them.
THE COURT:
Anything further?
MR. McLENDON:
No, Your Honor.
BY MR. BELL:
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Q. You indicated, Mrs. Allison, that the only com
plaint against the City of Jackson in regard to the selective
buying campaign was that the Mayor indicated that he would not
be able to help correct the problems that you had with the
merchants. Now, are there any other complaints or charges
which you have against the City of Jackson?
MR. McLENDON:
Just a minute, Your Honor, he is now leading his
own witness and attempting to elicit additional testimony out
(Allison - Redirect) 50 2 .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
of her that she has not given. This is leading and suggesting.
THE COURT:
I’ll overrule the objection. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS:
Would you repeat that question.
THE COURT:
Just don’t lead her though. Just let her answer
the question.
MR. BELL:
Q. Do you recall indicating an answer to counsel for
the defendants question?
THE COURT:
You ask your question. I’ll sustain the objection
to the form of your question. Let her answer.
MR. BELL:
Q. Would you again list the complaints that you and
your branch have against the City of Jackson?
A. Well, on my previous direct questioning, I did
state that the discrimination here in the City, as far as the
hiring of Negroes on Capitol Street, and the title used when
referring to a Negro as Mister, Miss or Mrs, and also the
discriminatory practice against Negroes as far as their voting
rights are concerned.
Q. Do you have any other — do you and your branch
have any other charges in the racial field against the City of
1
2
3
4
5
0
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Allison - Redirect) 503 .
Jackson?
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, this is the third time
he has tried to get her to say something else.
THE COURT:
I'll sustain the objection.
MR. BELL:
Q. Do you have— Mrs. Allison, in your branch program,
would you list any other grievances you have against the City
of Jackson?
MR. WATKINS:
We object to that as the fourth time he has tried
to get her to say something.
THE COURT:
I'll let you ask your question one more time, but
just ask her to state what her reasons are, and if she wants to
state them, well, just let that be the end of it. You can’t
keep pumping her and suggesting.
MR. BELL:
She hasn’t had a chance to answer, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
Well, she’s not entitled to answer a leading ques
tion.
THE WITNESS:
The discriminatory practice as far as hiring of
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Allison - Redirect) 504 .
Negroes and upgrading them and above all, the police brutality
acre in the City of Jackson, along with the Negro being denied
the rights to vote.
MR. BELL:
Q. Have you been arrested, Mrs. Allison, in the City
of Jackson?
A. I have.
Q. Who were you arrested by?
A. I did not know at the time, but later —
Q. I donft mean the name, but which police force did
the arresting officer belong to?
A. The City.
Q. What city?
A. The City of Jackson.
Q. And the arrest you mention now, is that the
arrest that took place on May 29th, 1963?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you just say again what you were doing when
you were arrested?
A. I was picketing.
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, this is improper. We
object on the grounds that it is improper redirect. We did not
go into details of what occurred at the time of her arrest in
any respect.
(Allison - Redirect) 505.
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 I
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1 THE COURT:
MR. BELL:
Well, she has answered. We'll let that go.
No further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
MR. BELL:
All right, who do you have?
We will call as our next witness, Reverend R. L.
T. Smith. Now, I would like to say this, Your Honor. Under
your interpretation of the Rules, when a witness testifies, the
plaintiffs in the case have to leave the Courtroom, if they
themselves have not testified.
REV. R. L. T. SMITH
After having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
Q. Sir, will you state your full name and address?
A. R. L. T. Smith, 1613 Morehouse Street, Jackson.
Q. How long have you been a resident of Mississippi?;
A. All of my life.
Q. And how long have you been a resident of Jackson?
A. Forty years.
Q. Would you state your race, please?
A. Negro.
Q. And what are your professional or business
(Smith - Direct) 506 .
1
2
3
4
5
0
7
8
9
10
11 !
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
connections?
A. Well, I am a minister. I'm a retired letter
carrier, farmer, real estate.
Q. I can't hear you.
A. I am a retired minister — I mean, I am a minis
ter, a retired mail carrier, real estate operator, and of
course, I am engaged in the effort now to secure —
Q. As far as your business associations, do you have
any other business associations?
A. Well, yes, I do — a grocery business and general
merchandise business.
Q. I see. Are there any other business associations
you have?
A. Well, yes, in the building and loan business.
Q. Now, are you active in any of the local organiza
tions?
A. Well, yes, I am.
Q. Would you name those, please?
A. Well, I'm active in the Baptist — organized
Baptist work in this area. I'm interested in the Council of
Federated Organizations in the State of Mississippi, chairman
of the finance committee of that group.
Q. What does that group do?
A. Well, it’s composed of the National Association
for the Advancement of Colored People, the Congress of Racial
(Smith - Direct)
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
Hi
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20 i
21
22
23
24
25
1
50 7 .
Equality, the organization commonly called SNCC, Women Power,
Unlimited, the Baptist Ministers Union and the Interdenomina
tional Ministerial Alliance, and the Jackson Committee on Human
Rights.
THE COURT:
Is that one name?
THE WITNESS:
No, sir. The organization is the Jackson Move
ment. I mean, the Council of Federated Organizations is —
wait a minute, I’m a little ahead of myself on that. The
Council of Federated Organizations is composed of the National
Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the Congress
of Racial Equality, SNCC.
MR. BELL:
Q. Do you know what those initials stand for — SNCC?
A. It*s the Student Non-violent Coordinating Commit
tee, I believe is what it stands for.
Q. All right.
A. What I was saying a while ago had reference to
the Jackson Movement for freedom and human dignity, and that
Movement is composed of the same organizations that I mentioned
before, but in addition to that, we have Women Power, Unlimited,
we have the Baptist Ministers Alliance, the Interdenominational
Ministerial Alliance, and the Jackson Committee of Human Rights.
Q. These latter groups are all part of the Jackson
(Smith - Direct) 50S .
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 :
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1 Movement?
A. For freedom and human dignity.
Q. And do you hold any position — any official
office in the Jackson Movement for freedom and dignity?
A. I'm chairman of that group.
Q. Now, what is the aim or the goals of the organi
zation in which you are affiliated?
A. Full freedom for all citizens in the State of
Mississippi, regardless of their race, creed or color. It's
common knowledge that the Negro citizens do not have that here
in the State of Mississippi.
Q. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.
A. In the organization, it is generally known that
Negro citizens in the State of Mississippi do not get their
full freedom and we are not accorded human dignity, and that's
on all levels of human participation here.
Q. Would you summarize for the Court the various
areas in which your organizations are trying to work to correct
this problem?
A. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you, sir.
Q. Would you summarize for the Court some of the
problems of discrimination or lack or equal opportunities or
rights that your groups are working on?
A. Well, as best I can. I could make an overall
statement that would repeat what I've just said — that covers
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10|
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
1 all activities that a Negro citizen has to face here. We run
into discrimination in every phase of everyday life. Of
course, I could go into specifics.
Q. I would like you to at least summarize — what
are some of the aspects of life that you run into these prob
lems?
A. Oh, I'm trying to think now not of the problems
themselves, but just where to begin. Well, a Negro citizen in
this area — I have been here all of my life — is denied the
human dignity on most every transaction, whether it be busi
ness, whether it be official, whether it be social or whatnot,
and I have reference to that it's common to address Negroes,
"boy", "uncle", "George", regardless of his age, and I for one,
and I'm sure that those in the Jackson Movement for freedom
and others think that the time has passed to address the Negro
man my age "uncle" simply because he's a Negro and simply be
cause he*s a man of that age — or to call him "George", "boy",
or anything.
We think the time is out for that. It's un
worthy of a free state or free people, and we are organized
to try to get our fellow citizens, everybody, to see that we
hurt ourselves and we hurt our state when Negro citizens are
not accorded ordinary human dignities in ordinary trans
actions of life.
Q. Have you made any effort — or your group made
(Smith - Direct) 50').
(Smith - Dix'oct) 510
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10 !
■
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
any effort to convey your feelings to the City Officials of
Jackson, Mississippi?
A. Yes, we have.
Q. What were they?
A. Well, they werein the form of appeals to the
Mayor and City Commissioners that we would sit down as free,
intelligent men and examine the problems that we face as best
we could and try to, on a give and take basis — I mean, give
and take, in the sense that we would show respect for each
other, that we could carefully and intelligently examine these
problems and see if we couldn't start on the road to solutions.
Q. Now, how did you attempt to make contact with the
Mayor and City Officials?
A. By letter, by telephone, by personal contact.
Q. Can you summarize the response you got to these
efforts to make contact?
A. We were — I'm sorry. I cut you off, I'm sorry.
Q. No, I just asked what was the response from the
City Officials to these efforts to make contact for the purpose
of sitting down for discussions?
A. We were able to get at least three meetings with
the Mayor and the Commissioners.
Q. Who is "we"?
A. Well, we had the committee that came from the
Jackson Movement for Freedom and Dignity that did meet with the
(Smit1' •• Direct) 511 .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10 :
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
Mayor and Commissioners.
Q. I see.
A. And there was some agreements reached on the
matters that were taken under consideration, and some progress
was made, but something got in the way there somewhere, and
so far as the practical application of it, it seems that all
of these things that were agreed upon were not fully realized,
and for the last several months, we have tried to have another
conference with the Mayor and Commissioners, but we have not
been successful.
Q. I ask you whether or not — whether the points
that you were bringing up with the — your committee bringing
up with the Mayor, dealt with segregated schools?
A. Yes, it did. His statement there was —
MR. WATKINS:
We object to that, may it please the Court. This;
is not a school case.
THE COURT:
Segregated schools?
20 MR. BELL:
I'm asking him what points, among those that he
brought up with the Commissioners and the Mayor, in a general
effort to make known to the City, what the Negroes feel regard
ing them, and I think it's very pertinent to this whole suit.
It concerns the —
(Smith - Direct)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 j
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
51 2 .
THE COURT:
Well, I'll overrule the objection. Let's don't
pursue that any further, because I don't think that's in issue.
MR. BELL:
What's that, Your Honor?
THE COURT:
I said I don't understand that to be in issue.
MR. BELL:
Maybe I should take just a moment, Your Honor, to
say what I think is in issue.
THE COURT:
That's what I tried to find out from you all in
the pre-trial conference and I didn't have much success.
MR. BELL:
I'm sorry, Your Honor. I thought I had given one
of my better performances, and I guess that I did not, but the
issue in this suit is not as Mr. Watkins indicated — limited
to whether or not the arrests during the protests of last May
and June, were valid arrests on a breach of the peace, tres
passing and whatever else the people were arrested for, or
were violations of Constitutional rights.
The issue in this suit is whether or not, on the
facts — we hope to show the facts — that the plaintiffs want
to have a right to make public protests of discrimination
wherever it exists, of segregation wherever it exists, and
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
Hi
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
whether or not their efforts to make such protests have been
frustrated by the City Officials and by the other defendants,
through arrests and other harassments.
We are hoping to get injunctive relief against
such arrests and against such harassments, so while the parti
cular protest effort may be aimed at making public the feelings
of the Negroes that the segregated schools should — in fact,
we're not here talking about trying to desegregate schools. I
don't think it's important.
THE COURT:
I don't think you're too far from it. I've over
ruled his objection. Go ahead.
MR. BELL:
Q. I think, Reverend Smith, I had asked you whether
or not you and your group had discussed with the Mayor the
problem of segregated schools?
A. We did.
Q. Now, what position did your group take as to that?
A. We took the position that the schools should be
desegregated. The Mayor made the statement to us in this open
committee meeting, that that matter was in the Courts and he
would abide by the decision of the Courts, and suggested that
we not take that up at that time.
Q. I ask you whether or not the group took up with
the Mayor, the problem of segregated governmental facilities
__________________ ____________________________(Smith - Direct) 513 .
(Smith - Direct) 514
1:
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
Hi
12
13
14
15
16
17 II
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
in the city of Jackson?
A. We did, and his answer — to be frank with you,
was very evasive. You might look at it from one slant — he
was saying he would obey the courts there, but the practical
application, it seems, has been different.
Q. Now, what other points did the group take up in
the opportunities it had to sit down with the Mayor?
A. Well, we took up the hiring of Negro policemen
and Negro crossing guards, the upgrading of Negro employees
in the city government, and among other things, the hiring of
at least one Negro driver of a garbage truck.
Q. Were there any other points?
A. Without reference to notes, I don't recall right
this minute.
Q. Now, can you tell me what has been the result of
these meetings, as far as the — strike that. Did the Mayor
indicate at the time you were meeting with him that he would
or would not honor any of these other commitments you were ask-V
ing for?
A. On one occasion, he seemed to have agreed to every
thing that we had asked for to some degree, and I believe it
was on that occasion,after he was called back in his office to
answer the telephone, and he came back and changed his mind,
and of course, his answer was different from what he stated
the first part of that conference.
(Smith - Direct) 515 .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 |
12
13
14
15
16
17
Q. Do I understand, now, did he at one point promise
to honor the commitments?
A. Yes, he did. Now, I say telephone — I d o n ’t
know whether it was the telephone or somebody said to come to
the telephone, and he was back in there a good while. But when
he came back out of his private chambers into the Council
chambers, his whole attitude, of course, had changed.
One other thing occurs to me, if I may, about the
points that were discussed on that occasion, and that was the
desegregation of the parks, and he agreed that he would abide
by a Court ruling on desegregation of the parks, but in the
subsequent meeting he went the other way and said: "you all
have got your parks and we've got our parks".
Q. Now, when is the last time you made an effort to
meet with the Mayor?
A. Oh, I would estimate it to be about — maybe three
months ago, somewhere in the neighborhood of three months ago.
We tried time and again since the last meeting with him, and
19 we went up to the Council chambers. We thought that the situa-
20 tion here was of such urgency that we should not sit down and
21 let things slip into a deteriorating condition or a worse con-
22 dition, and we went there and tried to see the Mayor.
23 After waiting around, I would say a half hour or
24 som e t h i n g like that, he did come out of his private chambers
25 on the other end and said: "I'm not going to see you all."
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
(Smith - Direct)
Well, he didn't greet us, which all these years,
he's always been the man that greets you at least. He didn't
give any kind of greeting. He caught us by surprise — we had
to look up. We actually didn't know whether he was talking to
us or what. By the time he had our attention, he said: "I'm
not going to see you all."
Q. At that time, what particular points did you want
to bring to his attention?
A. Well, we wanted to review the progress on our
prior agreement, among other things, and we wanted to discuss
the problems that were facing us at that time and see if these
matters couldn't be settled around the council table like we
thought men of wisdom would want to do.
Q. Has there been, Reverend Smith, an effort by you
or your groups to get the Mayor to appoint a bi—racial commit
tee for Jackson?
A. Yes, it has.
Q. Could you tell us about those efforts?
A. Well, we have tried that repeatedly, and on each
occasion, he has said that he would not appoint one. He
finally did say, after so many people talked in a manner that
toward putting
we thought was logical / him in favor of that, he said:
"Well, I'll put it this way. I'm not going to appoint one at
this time."
We went to several leading businessmen here in the
(Smith - Direct) 1 .
1 city, thinking that our cause had merit; that men of good judg-
2 ment and good will could discuss these problems and keep down
3 the flare-ups and keep down the violence, but in each instance,
4 they made reference to some type of agreement — that they
5 decided to let the Mayor handle it, and t h a t ’s as far as we got
6 with it.
7 Q. In other words, you have been unable to make
8 agreements with private firms and things of this nature, be-
9 cause they are relying on the Mayor?
10 A. No, these were private individuals of great in-
11 fluence in the City.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. And we went to them because we thought they might
14 use their influence to get the Mayor to — if he didn't want
15 to appoint it, to at least not discourage it — the establish-
16 ing of a bi-racial committee in the city.
17 These men that we discussed it with, and some of
18 them hold very high positions here in the city, they gave us
19 the impression that this matter had been discussed in various
20 organizations, and it had been decided to let the Mayor and
21 Commissioners handle it.
22 Q. What part have your organizations played, if any,
23 in the selective buying campaign in Jackson?
24 A. Well, we have heretofore and we still encourage
25 people to spend their money where they can be respected. That
• •
(Smith - Direct) 518 .
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
1 basically is what the selective buying campaign stands for.
That is one way of calling attention to the fact that we want
to be free, want to be recognized, we want our wives and our
daughters to be addressed as Mrs. when we are spending our
hard earned cash, and we want some of the jobs that go along
with the businesses built up by our patronage. That basically
is what the selective buying is intended to do.
Q. Now, in the persons that you come in contact —
the Negroes in Jackson that you come in contact through your
business and organization affiliations, what response do they •
have they given to you as regards support or non-support for
this selective buying campaign.
14
15
16
17
18
\
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, we object to that as
hearsay. He's asking this man what response he's gotten from
individual businessmen.
MR. BELL:
And by its very terms, Your Honor, it's not hear
say. I asked him what they told him, not what the truth of
the matter is, but what they told him when he went to them
and asked for their support on this thing.
MR. WATKINS:
And that's without giving us any opportunity to
cross-examine that particular businessman with reference to
the quotation that you're going to get from this witness about
(Smith - Direct)(Smith - Direct) 519.
1 what he said.
2 MR. BELL:
3 Yet the rule, Mr. Watkins, is to deter-
4 mine whether — is based on giving the opportunity to the
5 person who is giving the testimony. Now, here in testimony
6 we are attempting to elicit what Mr. Smith has learned from
7 others, you see. Now, whether he has learned the truth or not
8 is irrelevant, but what you are able to cross-examine him on
9 is what he has learned, so the fact that he has learned this
10 from this source or another source is not —
11 THE COURT:
12 I'll overrule the objection. Go ahead.
13 THE WITNESS:
14 Would you please ask your question again. I
15 didn't get it clearly.
16 MR. BELL:
17 Q. You have explained the selective buying campaign
18 and I asked you in the contact that you have throughout the
19 city, what response have you gotten from the Negro citizens
20 concerning the selective buying campaign?
21 A. Between eighty-five and ninety-five percent effec-
22 tive, sir.
23 Q. Now, what do you mean by that?
24 A. Well, I mean favorable to the effort to secure
25 human — to spend our money where we can be respected.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
23
(Smith - Direct)
Q. Now, what methods have you used to get your views
to the community?
A. We have weekly mass meetings and we have speakers
that will discuss these matters to those who are present, and
of course, the individuals will contact other individuals that
they live in their house with or that they live in their com
munity with, or that they work on their jobs with or they ride
on the bus with and whatnot. And that method — of course,
there has been very little publication stating our full point
of view in the newspapers, but there has been a little pub
licity of that matter in some newspapers.
Q. Is there generally, would you say from your —
strike that. What other methods have you used, if any, to
disseminate your views to the community?
A. Other than the mass meetings?
Q. Other than the mass meetings?
A. There have been a few television and radio appear
ances that have called attention to these matters.
Q. How many of those have you sponsored?
A. Well, there have been one or two on television —
radio — oh, I don't know. I would say roughly around four
or five combined, altogether.
Q. Over a period of time of how long did that occur?
A. Well, I would say within the past six months — at
_______________________________________________________________________________ :.2 .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
521 .
(Smith - Direct)
least three and possibly more. It could be four or five.
Q. Are there any other efforts or methods by which
you have been able to get your views to the community?
A. Well, there have been some leaflets printed, some
of them that we had full knowledge of and okayed their con
tents, and some of them that we did not have full knowledge
of.
Q. Who prepared the ones you didn't have full knowl
edge of?
A. I don't know.
Q. Has there been any interference in your efforts
to disseminate your views through mass meetings or leaflets
or what have you?
A. I have been told that there has been some inter
ference in the passing of the leaflets.
Q. Do you know of your own knowledge of such inter
ference?
A. I wasn't present when such interference was
carried on.
Q. Are you able to get your views expressed in the —
strike that. In your opinion, do the local newspapers express
the points of view of the Jackson Movement for Freedom and
Dignity?
MR. WATKINS:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
5 22 .
(Smith - Direct)
We object to that as calling on the witness fox
an opinion, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
I sustain the objection.
MR. BELL:
Q. Have you or your group been able to get your
views expressed or published in the papers in Jackson?
MR. WATKINS:
We object to that. He is calling again for an
opinion from the witness.
THE COURT:
Overruled. Go ahead.
MR. BELL:
Q. You may answer.
A. There has been one weekly paper here that we were
able to get our views in.
Q. What is the name of that paper?
A. The Mississippi Free Press.
Q. Have you been able to get your views published
in the Jackson Daily News?
A. I haven't, no. I haven't.
Q. Have you been able to get your views expressed in
the Clarion-Ledger?
A. I have not.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
523 .
(Smith - Direct)
Q. Now, as to the Mississippi Free Press, who pub
lishes that newspaper?
A. The Hyco Publishing Company.
Q. And how many pages does it have?
A. Most times, four — it's a little tablet, a small
newspaper.
Q. Would you say that the distribution of that paper
is large or small?
A. Very small.
Q. Would you know whether or not that paper is dis
tributed in any substantial numbers in the white community?
A. It is not.
Q. Now, what efforts have your group made to have
your views, other than those indicated, disseminated in a
fashion that would go to the white community?
A. The radio and television is about the only effec
tive way we can reach the white community.
Q. Would you say you have unlimited resource to the
radio and television here?
A. Not at all.
Q. Would you recount the times when you were able to
go on either radio or television, either you or members or
Negroes or other persons whose views support the cause here in
Jackson?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
524 .
(Smith - Direct)
A. That was some time in — oh, in the summer. I
don't remember the date there.
Q. Well, how long — as to the first instance, what
type of program was that?
A. Well, these views had to do with the voting rights
of Negroes, and they had to do with the word — using the word
"nigger" which is very offensive to the average Negro. We run
into it in our Courts, and among the other things that we hope
to eliminate — it tears something out of the average Negro
to hear the word "nigger" expressed by anybody, in Courts, in
business, in the street or on the job.
Q. Reverend Smith, who appeared on this first broad
cast, if you recall?
A. You mean that was made to express our views?
Q. That's right.
A. I appeared on it several times, and Mr. Evers —
Mr. Medgar Evers appeared on it more than six months ago, and
then Mr. Charles Evers a little later, and then Mr. Aaron Henry.
Q. Now, is that how many times — six times all
told?
A. Frankly, I just don't know how many.
Q. Can you remember how many times you were on con
cerning this problem?
A. Well, I was on at least twice in the past six
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Smith - Direct)
months. It was in the heat of the freedom voting campaign
that these matters were brought in, as a matter of fact, be
cause they were tied in with the freedom voters.
Q. And you say that Mr. Medgar Evers was on once?
A. Oh, more than once, but I recall that he was on
not too long before he was assassinated.
Q. Do you remember how many times he was on all told
during this time?
A. No, I don’t.
Q. Was it more than twice?
A. Frankly, I don’t recall.
Q. And Mr. Charles Evers was on once?
A. No, he's been on at least twice.
Q. Now, when you say "on", does that mean a whole
program itself or was it during a news program?
A. Oh, the last time I was on, I think mine was
limited to a few minutes. It was just a little more than a
spot announcement.
Q. Was that on a news program?
A. Well, when it was taped, we were not sure where
abouts on the program it would be shown, but it so happened
that in each case it was shown as a part or near the Brinkley
News Broadcast.
________________________________________ 525 .
Q. Have you been arrested, Reverend Smith, while
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
526 .
(Smith - Direct)
participating in this program?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Would you tell the Court the details about that?
A. Well, the next morning after Mr. Medgar Evers was
murdered, there was so much confusion, and thus with the situa
tion as it was, groups — ministers met out at the Pearl Street
A. M. E. Church and we thought that it would make good sense
to go down and talk with the Mayor and see if we couldn't all
blend our thinking, our hearts and minds and forces together
to keep the lid on, rather than have more violence, and at the
same time, we wanted to protest the murder or Mr. Evers.
We left the church, as ministers, and started
down Pearl Street to come down to the City Hall to talk the
matter over with the Mayor. It was agreed among us ministers
who were there, that we would just walk one beside the other
and be not less than fifteen feet apart.
We got as far as the five hundred block of Pearl,
I believe the church is in the nine hundred block, and some
body called me back. I was in front of the group there and
another man was with me, and we found that they had stopped
them back down at the intersection at what they call Short
Minerva.
Q. Who stopped them?
A. The police had stopped them down there, and after
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
527 .
(Smith - Direct)
a very short discussion, why,they arrested us and carried us
to the City Jail.
Q. Did you indicate to the police the purpose and
»
where you were going at that time?
A. Well, we told them we were going to talk.
Q. And what was the response of the police?
A. I don’t know what all was said right off, but
they said that we couldn’t go.
Q. And you say you were arrested?
A. Yes, we were.
Q. And what charges were placed against you, if you
know?
A. I haven't found out until this day.
Q. Have you ever been tried?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. How long was it before you were subsequently re
leased?
A. Oh, I would say we were in there between three
and four hours, and we asked the arresting officer what they
were arresting us for, and they never would tell us, and when
they booked us, I asked them what were they booking us for,
and there seemed to be quite a bit of confusion, and they never
did tell us what they were arresting us for or what they were
booking us for.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
526 .
(Smith - Direct)
Q. Now, Reverend Smith, do you spend a large or a
small amount of time engaging in these organizational activi
ties with the COFO groups and the Jackson Freedom Movement
«groups?
A. I spend a large amount — when I say a large
amount, I spend more than half my time with them.
THE COURT:
Let me ask you this. You say you don't know the
status of the case against you.
THE WITNESS:
No, sir, they never did tell us what they arrest
ed us for.
THE COURT:
Did you get out on bond?
THE WITNESS:
They let us out — I think each one signed his
own — something. Nobody came up with bond. It didn't require
any bail and that was not a property bond that we signed there.
THE COURT:
And you never have been tried?
THE WITNESS:
No, sir,
THE COURT:
You were never notified of a trial date?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Smith - Direct)
THE WITNESS:
___________________________________________________________ 529.
THE COURT:
No, sir.
%When was that that you were arrested?
THE WITNESS:
That was the next day after Mr. Medgar Evers was
killed.
THE COURT:
When was that?
THE WITNESS:
It must have been the 12th of June, 1963.
MR. BELL:
We have no further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Reverend Smith, do you recognize me? Do you know
who I am?
A. I've known you since you were that high, Mr. Bob
Nichols.
Q. You and I have been on a first name basis for
over forty years, have we not?
A. Well, you're not much over forty years old, and
you can say that.
Q. As a matter of fact, when I was that big, I was
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
530 .
(Smith - Cross)
living on the corner of St. Ann and Pinehurst and you were
carrying the mail out there, is that right?
A. That's right.
*Q. And several years prior to that time, you had
been the chauffeur for Mr. R. E. Kennington, who owned the
biggest department store in town?
A. That's correct.
Q. As a matter of fact, you and I kind of grew up
out there in the same neighborhood together, didn't we?
A. Well, maybe that's an overstatement now, but I
watched you grow up in that neighborhood.
Q. Now, does it offend your dignity for me to call
you Robert now or would you rather I would call you Reverend
Smith?
A. Well, the last name,, if you don't mind. Robert
smacks of slavery.days .
Q. All right. You may address me any way you like
and I'll call you Reverend Smith.
A. Well, you're Mr. Nichols.
Q. All right. Now, Reverend Smith, you stated that
you owned several businesses here in town. You own a grocery
store?
A. My family owns one.
Q. You own part of it, do you not?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
28
53 .
(Smith - Cross)
A. Well, it’s my family, that's right.
Q. I beg your pardon.
A. I say, it is my family, and my family does own
one.
Q. You stated you were in the real estate business,
is that correct?
A. Well, I handle a little real estate, that's cor-
rect.
Q. You referred to yourself as a real estate opera-
tor?
A. Well, I operate my own real estate.
Q. You have rental property?
A. That's right.
Q. You stated you were in the building and loan
business, is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Do you own part of a building and loan associa-
tion, is that what you are saying?
A. Well, it's a stock company.
Q. What?
A. It is a stock company.
Q. What is the name of it?
A. Wait a minute — it's a mutual association, but
it has shares. It's State Mutual Federal Savings and Loan
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
532 .
Association.
Q. Do you own stock
A. Well, it's not a
(Smith - Cross)
in this?
stock company. I have some
shares in it.
Q. You've got some shares. Are you on the Board of
Directors?
A . I am.
Q. Do you hold any office in it?
A. Well, I am on the Board of Directors.
Q. You are a director. Are you president or vice-
president?
A. I'm not the president.
Q. Now, Reverend Smith, you stated you came to
Jackson approximately forty-two years ago, is that correct?
A. Oh, it's somewhere around forty or forty-one.
Q. And from where did you come?
A. Utica, Mississippi, right here in this county.
Q. And did you have any wealth with you when you
came to Jackson?
A. What do you mean by wealth?
Q. Well, did you have a large amount of money when
you came to Jackson?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I'm going to object to this line of
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
533 .
(Smith - Cross)
questioning. I don't see any relevancy in Reverend Smith's
wealth or what he does for a living.
THE COURT:
4
I don't know what he's leading up to, but go
ahead. He's on cross.
MR. NICHOLS:
I'm leading up to show the tie-in with this boy
cott movement with Reverend Smith's businesses, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
Go ahead. I'll overrule the objection.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Now, you have explained how the Jackson Movement
has sponsored the selective buying system and there's nothing
about that you want to change at this point, is there?
A. Change, like what?
Q. You stated on direct examination that the Jackson
Movement, of which you are the head, sponsors the selective
buying system, along with the local NAACP Chapter, is that
correct?
A. It does encourage Negro citizens to spend their
money where they can be respected. That is basically what
it — where they can be respected and where they can get jobs
commensurate with their ability.
Q. And one of the parties that was listed on the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
(Smith - Cross)
boycott, I believe, was the Star Market and Grocery?
A. I don't know about any boycott. We don’t have
any boycott. Ours is selective buying, and buying where we
«
are given due respect.
Q. I'm sorry. The selective buying certainly did
list as one of the offenders, the Star Market here in Jackson,
did it not?
A. It seems to me that they were on the selective
buying list at one time.
Q. And in the Star Market's system, are their
stores — their stores are in competition with the Smith Groc
ery Store, are they not?
A. Well, every store is competitive with another if
they're selling the same things.
Q. And are the Negro dollars appreciated at the
Smith Grocery Store?
A. Well, anybody's dollars — whether he's white,
Negro or Chinaman, we're glad to sell to anybody if he's got
the money.
Q. In any of the various businesses you are con
nected with, Reverend Smith, do you employ any white people?
A. In what capacity?
Q. In any capacity.
_______________________________________________________________________________ 534 .
A. We have not yet had any as sales clerks or
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
28
j 3 j •
(Smith - Cross)
butchers. But I might say here, we have no objection to it.
If some competent white person would come there and apply for
a job, if we felt like he or she was able to do the job, we
4certainly wouldn't have a reason in the world to turn
him down.
Q. But that decision would be up to you, would it
not?
A. Well, it's a family enterprise. It would be
maybe my —
Q. It would be up to the family, as owners of the
store, to decide whether or not to employ me if I came down
there for a job?
A. Well, that would go for anybody — anybody who
came for a job.
Q. Now, aren’t you of the opinion that a personally
owned store on Capitol Street should at least be afforded the
same opportunity?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to the form of the question.
He's asking for an opinion.
THE COURT:
I sustain the objection. Let me see how this
list works. Does a fellow get his name on the list that you
can trade with, or if he gets on the list, does that mean that
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
(Smith - Cross)
you are not to trade with him?
THE WITNESS:
_______________________________________________________________________________5 3o .
Well, Judge, it works in this way. For instance,
we've had an instance there where a Negro lady customer was
abused, and we found that one way to make a man stop and think
about abusing —
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
Did you understand my question?
What was that?
THE COURT:
Did you understand my question? I want to know
if a business got on the list, does that mean that you were to
trade with them or does it mean that you weren’t to trade with
them?
THE WITNESS:
Well, we left that up to the individual. That’s
up to the individual with the money in his pocket. But we
simply relate to him that: here’s a case where some of our
people have been abused or some other grievance that we have
there, we had not been able to settle it otherwise and —
THE COURT:
I’m trying to find out what your signal was.
THE WITNESS:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
23
537 .
THE COURT:
I'm sorry, sir.
(Smith - Cross)
I said I was trying to find out what the signal
was that you gave to people that you wanted to trade with or
that you didn't want to trade with. Did you put them on the
list or did you not put them on the list? In other words, say
if you had a list with the Star Market on it, would that mean
that you were to trade with Star Market or were not to trade
with Star Market?
THE WITNESS:
That's left to the individual. That's left en
tirely to the individual, but the grievance would be mentioned
to the individual, and if that individual felt like spending
and they
his money there/didn’t rob his children or didn't rob him of
human dignity, of course, there wouldn’t be a thing in the
world we could do about that.
THE COURT:
You don't understand my question?
THE WITNESS:
MR. BELL:
I'm afraid I don’t if —
Reverend Smith, what Judge Cox is asking you —
is the method that you are using, that is — I believe it’s
true that when a store abuses a customer, a Negro customer,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
538 .
(Smith - Cross)
and you have been unable to do anything about this, you put
that store on a list so that other Negroes will know that
this is a store that is not treating Negroes with dignity.
Isn't that correct?
THE WITNESS:
That's what I'm trying to say, Judge.
MR. BELL:
And then when the store has corrected the situa
tion — whatever abuses you feel they have corrected, then
you simply take their name off the list, is that correct?
THE WITNESS:
That is correct
THE COURT:
It don't look to me like that ought to have been
so hard to answer if you knew the answer to it. Go ahead.
MR. NICHOLS:
THE COURT:
Are we back on cross-examination now, Your Honor'
Yes, sir.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Now, Reverend Smith, I show you Exhibit D-4 to
the witness, Charles Evers, which purports to be a handbill
distributed here on Capitol Street, and ask you to look at it.
Have you seen any handbills like that?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
539 .
(Smith - Cross)
A. I have seen some like this, and I don't believe I
have seen the copy of this one.
Q. You will notice that this handbill says: Don’t
«Buy on Capitol Street and the following other businesses where
ver they may be located in Jackson. It lists Bagby-Hall
Motors, Jitney-Jungle Grocery Stores, McRae's Department Store,
et cetera. Now, just what did your organization mean when they
sent out a circular like that?
MRS. MORRIS:
I object to that, Your Honor. He hasn't establishc
that the organization sent it out. He hasn't even —
THE COURT:
I can't hear a word you're saying.
MRS. MORRIS:
I'm having a hard time with you, too, Judge Cox.
I think it's the room. I said I object to the question because
it hasn't been established that his organization did, in fact,
send this out. The witness has testified that he has never
seen this before, and that is what is before the Court now.
THE COURT:
Well, I'll overrule the objection. Let's see what
he does know about it. He can't tell about something he doesn't
know. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
540 .
(Smith - Cross)
I don't know anything about this. I haven't seen
a copy of that one before.
MR. NICHOLS:
tQ. Now, look at that one. That one says: Don't buy
on Capitol Street, and it lists some stores. It says down at
the bottom, North Jackson NAACP Youth Council, et cetera. Now,
tell me what that means to you?
A. Well, I'll tell you, I don't know anything about
this one. I had nothing to do with it — the Jackson Movement
did not put this one out.
Q. That's fine. Just tell me — does that mean I
should or should not buy at those stores?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to that. The witness has
testified as best he can. He says it doesn't mean anything to
him — he doesn't know what it means, and counsel persists with
the same question.
THE COURT:
Well, of course, if it doesn’t mean anything to
him, that's the answer. I think Reverend Smith can take care
of himself all right. He’s on cross-examination.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Reverend Smith, do you know of any circulars that
have ever been put out by your group that informed the general
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
541 .
(Smith - Cross)
public that any store had acceded to your wishes, and there
fore was off the selective buying list?
A. Frankly, I don't recall, but in our general mass
meetings, when some have removed those objections, it is pub
licly announced. I do know that the public is informed that
the objections have been removed. Now, whether they have been
on the list or not, I'm not sure, Mr. Nichols.
Q. Have you ever stated it on TV or radio that any of
these objections were removed as concerned any particular
business?
A. You mean me personally or somebody else?
Q. You personally or anyone.
A. No, I don't recall making that on television or
radio myself, nor do I recall anybody else.
Q. Do you own any of the Hyco Publishing Company?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Now, you said that you weren't able to get your
views expressed in the city newspapers. Now, state to the
Court what efforts you have made to get your views expressed
in either of our city newspapers?
A. You mean by trying to get — well, wait a minute,
I'll put it this way. We've had representatives from our local
newspapers -- those men told us that they represented the local
newspapers — at our mass meetings time after time, and in fact
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
_______________________________________________________ U 2 .
(Smith - Cross)
I have spoken to some of them as to why it is they come out and
seem to take notes on all of our speeches — we give them
copies of all of our speeches, and we never see not one line in
the local newspapers. That’s one instance.
Q. Have you made any other efforts to get these
speeches printed or your views expressed in the newspapers?
A. Well, frankly, after the newsmen were there and
they wouldn't print it, we didn’t think any other method would
be effective.
Q. Do you know the owners of the two papers?
A. I do.
Q. Have you ever contacted them about this matter?
A. Not in reference to that.
Q. So then you have just left it up to the discre
tion of a particular reporter?
A. Well, it’s a little more involved than that, sir.
Q. Now, the first time you appeared on TV — I be
lieve you said it was two times in the last six months?
A. I think it was. I think it was two times.
Q. And what was the subject of your appearances?
A. I don’t recall right off. It had to do with
voting rights and the encouragement of voter registration,
and the acquiring of human dignity by honorable means, but
what the subject was, right now I don't recall.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
29
543 .
(Smith - Cross)
Q. And you appeared two times on that same subject?
A. In the general area of voting rights.
Q. Was this time you bought or time that was given
to your organization?
A. I don't recall. I do recall that on the last time
the owners at the television station did contact me for some
strange reason, and wanted me to make some comments, and of
course, after some correspondence back and forth, it was de
cided, instead of picking the subject for me to talk on, it
was decided to let me use my own subject.
Q. I believe you attended a mass meeting on May 29,
1963, at the A. M. E. Church at approximately 8:00 P.M. that
night, didn't you?
A. I don't remember dates, but there's very few of
the mass meetings that I have missed — I'll put it that way.
Q. That was the night — to refresh your memory —
Ruby Bryant, you, Medgar Evers, Charles Jones spoke at that
meeting. Do you recall that meeting?
A. Most likely I spoke if there was a meeting there.
Q. Do you remember the subject of your speech that
night?
A. I sure don't, Mr. Nichols. If you will tell me
what it is, I can very quickly tell you whether I spoke on it.
Q. I want to see if we can find out whether you
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
544 .
remember it.
(Smith - Cross)
A. That brings me back. I usually give newspaper
reporters a mimeographed copy of speeches, but we finally quit
that because, as I said, the newspapers never printed any of
them and we couldn't see any useful purpose in handing them
out, but if you have a copy of it there, I'm sure I'll recog
nize it.
Q. Now, did you attend a meeting on May 31, 1963, at
the Masonic Temple which occurred about 7:30 P.M. that night?
A. I might have. As I say, there's very few of them
that I've missed.
Q. I believe that was the meeting when the principal
speaker was Roy Wilkins.
A. I was there that night.
Q. Did you hear all the speeches that night, and go
on the platform?
A. I'm sure I was on the platform and I must have
heard them all.
Q. Did you hear Roy Wilkins make this statement
whereby he referred to the Mayor and the Chief of Police in
this manner? He said, quote: "They are just like Hitler.
All they need is an oven there to bake you as Hitler did the
Jews." End quote.
THE COURT:
545 .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Smith - Cross)
Excuse me. I couldn't hear all you said, Mr.
Nichols.
MR. NICHOLS:
I'm sorry, sir. I asked him if he heard this
quotation that Roy Wilkins made. Quote: "They are like Hit
ler. All they need is an oven there to bake you as Hitler did
the Jews." End quote. I asked him if he heard Wilkins make
that statement.
THE WITNESS:
I don't recall having heard him make that state
ment .
THE COURT:
Can you hear him all right?
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir, I can hear him.
THE COURT:
Maybe my hearing is bad.
MR. NICHOLS:
Q. I ask you whether or not Willie Ludden was at
that meeting that night?
A. I really don't recall, Mr. Nichols.
Q. You have been arrested in the city of Jackson one
time, is that correct?
A. That's correct, sir.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
546 .
(Smith - Cross)
Q. And no bond was required of you when you were
released, is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And you have never been tried for any offense?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you know the disposition of your case?
A. No, sir, never have found out. I mean they
haven't notified us to come to any trial or anything. I don't
know what it is.
Q. Did you employ the services of a lawyer?
A. No, sir.
MR. NICHOLS:
That's all we have, Your Honor.
MR. BELL:
We have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
All right. Who do you have as your next witness?
MR. BELL:
We call as our next witness Verna Anne Bailey.
VERNA ANNE BAILEY
After having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MORRIS:
Q. Will you state your name and where you live and
547 .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
29
(Bailey - Direct)
your age?
A. My name is Verna Anne Bailey. I live at 1502
Florence Avenue, Jackson, Mississippi. I am sixteen years old
Q. Have you ever been arrested while trying to use
the parks or the zoo?
A. Yes, I have been arrested. I was arrested, I
believe, in July, 1961.
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, we want to object to
the testimony elicited from this witness with reference to
occurrences in the parks and zoo in 1961. It is not part of
the issues framed by this lawsuit. They have got some six
or seven hundred arrested involved in this suit, but this is
not one of them.
We submit that we will never finish this lawsuit
if we branch out in every objection that has been made in
Mississippi, other than those confined in the limits of this
lawsuit.
MR. BELL:
Your Honor, as we indicated at the pre-trial con
ference, the duty and the obligation and the burden on the
plaintiffs in this suit is to show that the City officials
have been violating the Constitutional rights of the plain
tiffs and their class on every opportunity — on each instance
546 .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Bailey - Direct)
when they attempted to use facilities or attempted to protest
discriminations, they were arrested, and we indicated at that
point that while the major group of those arrests took place
during a certain period, that in order to prove that this
group was a part of the policy of arresting everyone who tried
to use the facilities or go against the policy of segregation,
we were going to show that at least as far back as 1961, indi
viduals who tried to use facilities on a desegregated basis or
who have tried to make any protests, have been arrested, so
it's part of the policies we are trying to show — that it's
gone on before last year.
Although we made a cut-off date, I think we indi
cated at that time that we wouldn’t go beyond 1961 — and that
it was carried on through 1963, and as a matter of fact, it is
carried on up to the present time.
THE COURT:
I am going to reserve the ruling on that. I'm
not sure enough about what the issues are. I'll take the com
plaint home tonight. I'll reserve the ruling, so go ahead.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Can you tell me when in 1961 you were in the zoo
and where it was?
A. It was in the month of July. We went to Living
ston Park — a group of students, some older than me and one
younger.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
549 .
(Bailey - Direct)
Q. Were these Negro students?
A. These were Negro students.
Q. And are you a Negro?
A. I am a Negro.
Q. What else happened?
A. Well, we walked around for a while and then we
sat. The reason we went there was because a week before that,
our Mayor was on TV and he told us that we could use all park
facilities, and we decided to find out for ourselves. Since
our Mayor did say that, we decided to go out to the zoo.
When we got there we walked around for a while
and then we sat. We stayed about an hour and a half and no
body said anything to us. We went to get some popcorn and
came back and then some policemen arrived and asked us to get
up, but we didn’t pay any attention to them.
We talked among ourselves and they said: "Are
you going to get up?" We still didn’t say anything. He
say: "If you don’t get up, we’re going to place you under
arrest." He say: "Are you getting up?" We say: "no, we
aren’t getting up." So he told us that we were under arrest
and told us to stay there for a while until he called to some
of the other kids.
Then he told us to line up to get in the paddy
wagon. When we got down to the jailhouse —
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
550 .
(Bailey - Direct)
Q. Let me stop you here. During the time you were
in the park before you were arrested, had any crowd gathered
in the area where you were?
A. No, hadn’t any crowd gathered. I mean, the
white people — they didn’t even pay any attention to us. I
mean, they seemed as if this was a regular thing.
Q. They arrested you?
A. Yes, they arrested us •
Q. And how long were you kept in jail?
A. For about two hours.
Q. Did you subsequently come up before the juvenile
court?
A. Yes, I did. After they let me out of the cell,
they took me to Mr. Osborne’s office and then they brought
the Judge, and the Judge asked me a lot of questions — my
name, address, did I go to school and how did I do in school.
I told him I was an "A” student. He said I seemed to be nice
and asked me did my parents know I was there. I told him,
yes, my parents knew I was going to the zoo, and then he said
he was going to find out if I could go home or should I stay
in jail, but he decided to let me go home.
Q. Did you appear before him again?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What disposition did he make of the case — what
551.
1 (Bailey - Direct)
2 did he do with it?
3 A. He had me on probation for a year and told me I
4 had to write a term paper. I turned the term paper in, and
5 he let me come off probation because he said he suspended
6 the sentence since I had been so good. He told me that I had
7 a very good term paper and said that he would turn it over to
8 Jackson College to C. C. Moseley and that he would send me
9 the original copy.
10 Q. What was the subject matter of the term paper?
11 A. The prevention of juvenile delinquency.
12 Q. How old — were there any restrictions placed on
13 you during the time you were on probation?
14 A. I had to be in every day at six o ’clock except
15 on Saturdays, I could stay out until eleven, but if I wanted
16 to go anywhere, my parents had to be with me.
17 Q. And how long were you on probation before the
18 sentence was suspended?
19 A. For six months.
20 Q. Was there any other — was there some talk or
21 some discussion during this time about a water fountain con-
22 cerning another girl or another child?
23 A. Oh, yes, he accused me —
24 Q. Who is he?
25 A. The Judge said that a lady had made a complaint
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
552 .
(Bailey - Direct)
that I had pushed her —
THE COURT:
Had done what?
THE WITNESS:
That I had pushed her little girl — the Judge
said that a lady made a complaint that I had pushed her little
girl from the water fountain. I remember getting some water
because I wanted to see how white water tastes, you know, that
white people don't want us to drink, and I wanted to see how
did it taste. And I tasted the water, but it wasn't anybody
around, no little kids or anything.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Now, during the summer of 1963, did you take
part in any of the protest demonstrations?
A. Yes, it was on June the 12th.
Q. Tell me what happened on June the 12th?
A. On June the 12th, after Mr. Evers' death, I was
real excited, angry with everybody, and I wanted the white
people to know that — that I didn't think they were treating
us right, so they were having a meeting and they asked for
volunteers to march, and I was all for it because I wanted to
march.
We started marching from the Masonic Temple
Building on Lynch Street.
553 .
1 (Bailey - Direct)
2 Q. Tell me what formation you were walking in?
3 A. In two's — in a line of two's.
4 Q. Was it an orderly process?
5 A. It was in order.
6 Q. And this was on the morning that Mr. Evers was
7 shot, wasn't it?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. Were there policemen in the area?
10 A. Yes, there was one across the street from the
11 Masonic Temple. Before we got to the corner of Rose Street —
the corner of Rose Street and Lynch Street, there were police-
13 men from all directions, in front of us and on both sides, but
14 I don't remember any behind us.
15 Q. How far did you walk before the policemen appear-
16 ed — before you saw the policemen as you just described?
17 A. About half a block.
18 Q. And how long did this take?
19 A. About five minutes. I believe it was a Captain
20 that told us to disperse or that we would be arrested. It
21 wasn't in the same words, but he said to disperse or we could
22 leave — anybody could leave if they wanted to, but if we
23 didn't leave, we were going to be arrested.
24 We didn't leave and so he said: "Get them, boys"
25 and he took my flag and hit me in the side with this club, and
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
554 .
(Bailey - Direct)
he hit a girl named Barbara Hayes and she fell out, and one
of the boys picked her up and told the cameramen to take that
picture, since they were taking everything else, to take that
picture.
They put us into paddy wagons, you know, trucks
and paddy wagons. They had trucks and paddy wagons, but I was
in a truck, and they took us to the fairgrounds and had the
girls on one side and the boys on one side, and took our names
and addresses and they gave us some small cots to sleep on.
Later on that night they called us out, one by
one, to question us, to get our name and address again, and
our parents name and so forth.
Q. How long were you out at the fairgrounds?
A. For three days.
Q. Now, was there any charge made, or how was the
charge disposed of?
A. Well, Mr. Calhoun came to the fairgrounds to get
us carried us to the City Jail to the Judge's chambers, and
the Judge said that since my father — no, he asked that —
my father had come in from Vicksburg, and he didn't know that
we were in jail, and he said that when he came in his best
friend had been killed and his three children were in jail.
So the Judge said that since he knew that Mr.
Evers and daddy were good friends that he would drop the case
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
555 .
(Bailey - Direct)
then — was all that he would do right then, and then he let
us go — no probation or anything, no term paper — just let
us go.
Q. The time you were put on probation in 1961, were
there any other restrictions placed on your activities?
A. No.
MRS. MORRIS:
I have no further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TRAVIS:
Q. What did you say your age was?
A. Sixteen.
Q . Now?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You are sixteen years old now?
A. Yes.
Q. And you say on June 22, 1961, you were arrested
in Livingston Park Zoo?
A. It was June or July, yes, that's right.
Q. June 22nd, 1961, I believe.
A. Yes.
Q. All right, excuse me. I believe I did say July.
Now, do you know who arrested you on that occasion?
A. No, I don't remember.
(Bailey - Cross)
Q. Do you know how you were conducting yourself in
the park on that particular occasion?
A. Yes.
Q. I believe you said you spent about an hour and
a half in the Zoo sitting around on various benches?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, would you tell me whether or not
you were alone or were there other persons with you on this
particular occasion?
A. I was with a young fellow and there were four
more fellows and two more girls.
Q. All right, now, this young fellow you were with
what was his name?
___________ _______________ 556 ,
A,
Q.
A.
Q.
Willis Logan.
How long had you known him?
Oh, I had been knowing him about five years.
About five years. Were you sitting on the bench
with him?
A. Yes, that’s right.
Q. Would you describe to the Court the manner in
which you were sitting on the bench with him — how he was
sitting with you or vice versa?
A. I was sitting here and he was sitting over there
Q. Would you tell the Court whether or not he had
557 .
1 (Bailey - Cross)
2 his arms around you or was touching you in any way?
3 A. No, he definitely d i d n ’t have his arms around
4 m e .
5 Q. All right. Y o u ’re sure of that?
6 A. I'm positive.
7 Q. All right. Let me ask you this. You
8 said that you were taken to the police station?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. And I believe you say that the Youth Court —
11 Juvenile Court took you over at that point?
12 A. There were some policemen questioning me. They
13 questioned me , and then they took me to Mr. Osborne's office.
14 Q. Now, you know who Mr. Osborne is?
15 A. Y e s .
16 Q. Who is he?
17 A. H e ’s over the juvenile delinquents.
18 Q. The Juvenile Delinquent Department of the City
19 Police Department — the Police Department of the city of
20 Jackson?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, did you talk to Mr. Osborne?
23 A. Y e s .
24 Q. He treated you fairly, didn't he?
25 A. Y e s .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
558 .
(Bailey - Cross)
Q. And the Juvenile Court that he took you before
treated you fairly, did it not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were released?
A. Yes.
Q. You were complimented highly on the term paper
you had written at the direction of the Court?
A. That's right.
Q. The Court was well pleased with this essay you
had written?
A. Yes.
Q. And commended you on it?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you know who that Judge was?
A. Judge Guernsey.
Q. And he's the County Judge of the First Judicial
District of Hinds County, Mississippi, is he not — the Youth
Court Judge?
A. Yes.
Q. You deny that there was any pushing going on by
you or anyone else on this particular occasion?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, on June 12th, 1963, I believe you told the
Court that you were angry?
1
2I
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
HIi
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Bailey - Cross)
A. Yes.
Q. You were angry, I believe you said, and wanted
to let the white people know that you were angry?
A. That’s right.
Q. Now, what did you do about that and where did
you go to let them know that you were angry?
A. Well, I went to the Masonic Temple Building,
and they were having a meeting.
Q. They were having a meeting — who?
A. The people there — I can’t remember who all
were there.
Q. Who sponsored this meeting?
A. I don’t know.
Q. You just went to the meeting and you didn’t know
who was sponsoring it or anything?
A. Usually I always go up to the Masonic Temple.
Q. Why do you always go up to the Masonic Temple?
A. My father works there, and also there is the
NAACP office and I go down to the NAACP office.
Q. Well, then the NAACP encourages you to come up
to the office?
A. No.
Q. Then why do you go?
A. I went on my own.
t; c o
560 .
1 (Bailey - Cross)
2 Q. Let me get back to this meeting on the 12th of
3 June. I want to find out why you went to the meeting at the
4 Masonic Temple?
5 A. The reason I went to the meeting is because I was
6 upset over Mr. Evers' death and I wanted to know if there was
7 anything that I could do to show the people that I didn't like
8 what they were doing — the way they treated me and Negroes.
9 Q. All right. You were angry then when you arrived
10 there?
11 MR. BELL:
12 I think she used the word "upset".
13 THE WITNESS:
14 Upset.
15 MR. TRAVIS:
16 Q. When you got there, was there a meeting in
17 progress?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And who was conducting this meeting?
20 A. I don't remember. There were a lot of people
21 getting up, over the meeting — I mean, anybody — I mean,some
22 of the people just get up, and you couldn't say who in parti-
23 cular, because I don't remember all of them.
24 Q. How many people were present at this meeting?
25
------
A. About a hundred and fifty.
56 i .
(Bailey - Cross)
Q . How many?
A. About a hundred and fifty.
Q. You're sure there weren't more than that?
A. There could have been, but I think it was a
hundred and fifty.
Q. All right. Do you know how many people were
arrested with you?
A. I think it was about a hundred and fifteen.
Q. You think so. You wouldn't be surprised if I
told you it was a hundred and forty-six, would you?
A. No, I wouldn't, because I'm not sure.
Q. Now, were the rest of these people attending this
meeting, were they angry like you?
A. I don't know. I didn't talk to everybody there.
Q. Well, you listened to them, didn't you?
A. I listened to the people, but they were upset,
but I couldn't say they were as upset as I was.
Q. All right, but they were upset.
A. I guess you can say that.
Q. And were their feelings much the same as yours
were?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, what did you all propose to do
about this?
562 .
1 (Bailey - Cross)
2 A. Well, they asked for volunteers to march.
3 Q. Who asked for volunteers to march?
4 A. One of the fellows that was over the meeting.
5 Q. Well, who was this — one of these fellows —
6 you mean you don't know who he was?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Well, was this the NA A C P office?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Was this this Jackson Movement thing or what
11 was it?
12 A. It was the Jackson Movement, but it wasn't in
13 the NAACP office. It was downstairs.
14 Q. In the auditorium — the auditorium is upstairs,
15 isn't it?
16 A. No.
17 Q. It's downstairs?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. All right. So this is in the ten hundred block
20 of Lynch Street, isn't it?
21 A. 1072 Lynch.
22 Q. 1072 Lynch Street, and that's where this meeting
23 was taking place?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. Now, Poindexter and Lynch Street, where you were
563 .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Bailey - Cross)
arrested, is in about the four hundred block, isn't it — or
five hundred block? Which is it?
A. It's in the fifteen hundred block — I don't
know.
Q. You were coming toward town, weren't you?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. Now, when you left the Masonic Temple — that's
where you said you had the meeting, is it not?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you go from the Masonic Temple to Lynch
and Poindexter, where you said you were arrested?
A. We went in two’s, and we marched out, and the
fellow that was leading the line —
Q. All right, just a minute, let me ask you this.
You marched out — you marched out where?
A. From the Masonic Temple Building out the door.
Q. Out the door and into what?
A. Into the street.
Q. Into the street?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, when you say you marched into the street,
you marched out into Lynch Street, not the sidewalk, the
street?
A. That's right.
-
564
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Bailey - Cross)
Q. Now, you went into the street, and which way did
you go in the street?
A. We got in the middle of the street and turned
left.
Q. Was this quite a crowd of you?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you say — I believe you said you thought
it was a hundred and fifteen or so?
A. I thought so.
Q. But you said you wouldn't be surprised if I told
you it was a hundred and forty-six that were actually arrested
on this occasion? Is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, all these people, including yourself, were
in the street, were they not?
A. That's right.
Q. They were not on the sidewalk?
A. No.
Q. And there are sidewalks on either side of that
street, are there not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you know, don’t you, that Lynch Street is
one of the more heavily traveled thoroughfares in this city?
A. Yes.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
565 .
(Bailey - Cross)
Q. Do you know what gave you the right to go out
in the middle of the street and interfere with traffic?
A. Well, since the white people do drive up and
down Lynch Street, we wanted to stop them so that they would
know that we didn't like what they were doing.
Q. So you just went out in the middle of the street
and stopped the traffic?
A. Yes.
Q. And you didn't take into consideration that that
was damaging?
A. No.
Q. You did block traffic?
A. Yes.
Q. And you blocked it both ways, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. As a matter of fact, the police had to cut off
traffic on this occasion in both directions in order that
nobody would get hurt out there, did they not?
A. In order that no one would get —
Q. Let me strike that and ask you was it necessary
for the police to cut off traffic in that area when you were
in the street, you and your crowd?
A. I remember the policemen stopping us going
straight across, but as far as them stopping traffic — I
566 .
1 (Bailey - Cross)
2 guess you could say they stopped traffic when they stopped us,
3 because they — I mean, they could have gone around the side
4 of us, the cars could have. They could have gone around the
5 s i d e .
6 Q. Well, that s t r e e t ’s not — the middle of that
7 street is not normally used for pedestrian traffic, is it, for
8 you and others to get out and walk in the middle of that
9 street?
10 A. No.
11 Q. It's normally used for vehicles — automobile
12 traffic, is it not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. T h a t ’s what i t ’s there for, i s n ’t it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you knew that?
17 A. Yes, I knew it.
18 Q. All right. Now, when you approached this Poin-
19 dexter, I believe Lynch and Poindexter Street is where you
20 say you were arrested — you say there was a line of police
21 officers across the street at that point?
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. And you say there was a police captain there?
24 A. I believe he was the captain. He was the one
25
j-----
that s p o k e .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
56 7 .
(Bailey - Cross)
Q. Do you know who that police captain was?
A. No.
Q. What did this police captain do?
A. He told us to disperse.
Q. He asked you to disperse?
A. That's right.
Q. How many times did he ask you to disperse?
A. I think it was twice.
Q. Twice. And isn't it true that he asked you to
disperse and move out of the street?
A. No, I don't think so. He said to disperse or
either one, anybody could get out of the line if they wanted
to —
Q. He gave you an opportunity —
A. — but if you wanted to stay, you could stay and
get arrested.
Q. All right, he gave you an opportunity to get out
of the street?
A. That's right.
Q. What else did he do on this occasion before you
were arrested?
A. He told the policemen to "get them, boys".
Q. Did he ask if anyone in the crowd had a permit
to parade?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
568
(Bailey - Cross)
A. I don't remember.
Q. You wouldn't deny that he did?
A. No, I wouldn't deny it.
Q. You wouldn't deny that he asked you that on two
or more occasions, would you?
A. Since I don't remember, I certainly couldn't
deny it.
Q. All right. But you did understand that he was
giving you an opportunity to get out of the street?
A. Yes.
Q. Why didn't you get out of the street?
A. Because I did not want to get out of the street.
Q. You didn't want to get out of the street?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, do you know what you were charged with on
this occasion — this last occasion that you mentioned?
A. I believe it was marching without a permit.
Q. Parading without a permit. Well, did you have
a permit to parade?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Did anybody in your group have a permit to
parade?
A. No.
Q. And insofar as you know, did anybody in your
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
(Bailey - Cross)
group or you, try to obtain a permit from the Mayor and the
City Council of the city of Jackson to parade on this occa
sion?
A. No. I knew that our ministers had gone to talk
to the Mayor, and he didn't seem to do anything about it.
Q. You weren’t there on this occasion, were you?
A. And he said he wasn't going to do anything about
it. I wasn't where?
Q. You weren't with your ministers when they talked
to the Mayor, were you?
A. No, I wasn't.
Q. So you don't — anything you would tell the
Court would be what these ministers told you after this meet
ing — that would be hearsay. Do you have personal knowledge
of anybody making any effort to obtain a permit to parade on
June the 12th on Lynch Street?
A. No.
Q. And you didn't?
A. No.
Q. Now, when you were taken in again, you went be
fore the Youth Court?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes, and you were again discharged by the Youth
569 .
Court?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
570 .
(Bailey - Cross)
A. Yes.
Q. And your case was handled promptly as could be
expected under the circumstances?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you stated, and I wish you would state it
again, because I didn't quite understand what you were saying,
that when this police captain stopped you, you were struck in
some manner?
A. Yes. The policeman was trying to take this
flag from me, and he punched me in the side with his club
that he had in his hand.
Q. He punched you in the side?
A. Yes.
Q. What policeman was this?
A. I don't know. They all look alike to me.
Q. They all look alike. Well, was he a police —
patrolman or was he a captain and had on a white shirt?
A. He had on a blue shirt, I believe. I'm not sure
about that.
Q. Did you make any complaints about that to any
body? Did you make that fact known?
A. No. I talked it over with some of the other
kids, but —
Q. You did what?
571 .
1 (Bailey - Cross)
2 A. I talked it over with some of the other students.
3 Q. All right. Did you make it known to the Police
4 Department of the city of Jackson or any official of the city
5 of Jackson?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you make it known to the F.B.I. or any federal
8 agency?
9 A . N o .
10 Q. That you had been struck on that occasion?
11 A. No.
12 Q. So it was so insignificant to you at the time you
13 d i d n ’t feel it was necessary to complain to any of the authori-
14 ties about it?
15 A. It was significant.
16 Q. But it was not significant enough for you to make
17 any complaint to the local or federal authorities?
18 A. No.
19 THE COURT:
20 Did the officer hit you deliberately or was it an
21 accidental punch?
22 THE WITNESS:
23 Well, he was punching everybody, but maybe it was -
24 I d o n ’t know if it was deliberate or not, but when he was try-
25 ing to put me up into the truck, t h a t ’s when it happened.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
572.
(Bailey - Cross)
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. You didn't require any medical attention then or
after?
A. No.
Q. In other words, it was just nothing more than a
tap with a night stick that you are talking about?
A. Well, I wouldn't call it a tap.
Q. Well, a push or a shove.
MR. TRAVIS:
That's all, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
How wide would you say that Lynch Street is at this
point where the crowd was arrested?
THE WITNESS:
I don't know, sir.
MRS. MORRIS:
I didn't hear your question or the answer.
THE COURT:
She said she didn't know. I asked her how wide
Lynch Street was at the point where she was arrested, and she
said she didn't know.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MORRIS:
Q. When you say the police were across the street at
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
573 .
(Bailey - Redirect)
the point where you were arrested, you mean the sidewalk across
the street and of course, the sidewalk along the thoroughfare?
A. Yes, they were on the sidewalk.
Q. And the group that started out to march — were
they occupying all of the street?
A. No.
Q. How much of the street were they occupying, if you
can tell me?
A. Just the middle of the street — it wasn't too
much.
Q. And you were two by two?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. And people had been arrested while using the side
walks, had they not?
A. That's right.
Q. Before this had happened?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. Until the policemen had blocked the sidewalk,
traffic was able to get by on either side of you, was it not?
A. That's right.
MRS, MORRIS:
I have nothing further.
THE COURT:
All right, we’ll take a fifteen minute recess.