NAACP v. Thompson Transcript of Record Vol. IV
Public Court Documents
September 24, 1964
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. NAACP v. Thompson Transcript of Record Vol. IV, 1964. 251fe915-bf9a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/a53f96a0-39ca-4723-a25a-2589a7e7133e/naacp-v-thompson-transcript-of-record-vol-iv. Accessed July 22, 2025.
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Transcript of Record
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FIFTH CIRCUIT
NO. 21741
NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT
OF COLORED PEOPLE, ET AL, APPELLANTS
VS .
ALLEN THOMPSON, MAYOR OF THE CITY OF
JACKSON, MISSISSIPPI, ET AL, APPELLEES
VOLUME IV
Pages 872 through 1170
ii«
(App ea
for
1 from the United States
the Southern District of
District Court
Mississippi)
V
VOLUME IV I N D E X (Continued) Page
TRANSCRIPT CONTINUED of TRIAL OF FEBRUARY 3 , 4 t 5,
6, 27 and 28, 1964 872
Arvene Lee Adams continued 872
Dir . Cr. R edir . Recr.
Helen O’ Neal 879 886 893
Frankie Adams 894 900 929 935
Will Palmer 940 946
Bette Anne Poole 952 960 980
WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 1960 983
John Br©mley Garner 985
Memphis Norman 1004 1015 1030
Cleveland Donald 1030 1033
McHenry Adams 1036 1046
Willie Ludden 1051 1060 1100
Def’s Exs.8,9,iden 1096
Rev. Edwin King 1101 1118
Def’s Ex. 10,iden 1126
Albert Lassiter 1162
Dr . A . D . B eit t el 1165
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872 .
A. Adams, Dir.
us a little longer, and I think we will be able to make this all
clear. I can’t cite any precedent, because, - we have worked
hard on this thing, - it just hasn’t been done before, but I
would like to have an opportunity to at least put it into the
record.
MR. WATKINS:
Your honor, may I say a word? Paragraph 6 of the
Complaint alleges what these people did and what they contend
they were constitutionally entitled to.
THE COURT:
Paragraph what?
MR. WATKINS:
Six. Paragraph 8 of the Complaint alleges what they
say the defendants wouldn’t permit them to do. In other words,
6 is what they say they were entitled to do, paragraph 8 is what
they say we wouldn’t let them do. When you read these two para
graphs in connection with the prayer, there is not one point in
this Complaint that raises an issue with respect to anything ex
cept the public demonstrations involving some 700 arrests on the
streets of the City of Jackson.
Now they want, by the use of the word "policy” to
turn this into a case which at the least brings into evidence
every type of arrest in parks, bus stations, on buses, in pri
vate churches. It won’t mean anything after it is in, — that’s
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873 ..
A. Adams, Dir.
my point. It’s perfectly immaterial to the issues involved in
this case. Whether this girl was rightly or wrongly denied a
visit to a private church in Jackson could not possibly have
anything to do with this lawsuit.
MR ■ BELL!
Let me say, your honor, in answering our Complaint
the defendant denies all the allegations in it. This left us
with the problem and the burden of proving not only that all the
situations we set forth in illustration in paragraph 6 had oc
curred, which we had been trying to do, but to proving that they
had occurred as a part of a policy that any person as I have in
dicated who protested racial discrimination is going to be sub
jected to arrests or harassment.
I think this situation is certainly analogous to the
time when a police officer is brought up on a charge of police
brutality for hitting a man over the head. Now, in response to
that charge, your honor, if this officer was willing to indicate
that he probably used whatever force was necessary, and in the
absence of an awful lot of proof to the contrary, that police
not
officer is probably/going to be found guilty of police brutality
because often it is necwssary to use force.
However, if the plaintiff used police brutality, if
they were able to show that he was not only hitting someone over
the head on that occasion, but that particular policeman had
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A. Adams, Dir.
been hitting people on the head for the last few years, he had
been hitting them on the head since the particular incident
which caused the suit, and as to one indication and another
gives the impression that he is going to continue hitting people
on the head when they are arrested, then I think that plaintiff
has gone a lot further toward proving his case.
Now, he may introduce these prior assaults not to
show that these policemen should be convicted as to those, and
similarly here, we don’t introduce all this prior proof to show
the defendants should somehow be held accountable for the mat
ters in 1961, that the facilities should be ordered desegregated
but we do think that it does show the policy, we do think it
does show the intent of the defendants in regard to this policy,
and that is why a policy, in my reasoning, is one of the most
difficult things to actually prove. If we can’t even put the
defendants on and ask them what the policy is, we have been pre
vented in this, we have to show it ourselves, and we ask the
Court for the opportunity to put our case before you, and then
when the case is before you, you would have an opportunity to
strike it or permit it as you will.
THE COURT:
I realize your difficulty in proving policy. That
is the reason I have been rather indulgent, but I am also mind
ful of the part the pleadings play in any lawsuit. You just
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A. Adams, Dir.
can’t file something over here, and walk off and leave it, and
try something completely different before the Court. We have a
very liberal rule, of course, of notice pleadings, and I have
been extremely indulgent far beyond my own view of your rights
to make proof within the legitimate range of your pleadings here
because of this problem you have of policy to prove and estab
lish, but I think I have heard enough on this, I will sustain
the objection.
MR. BELL:
I won’t argue any further on it.
THE COURT:
Go on with your proof.
MR. BELL:
I would have liked to have had this record before
you. We are interested in getting relief from you and not from
some other place. I have to request that we be permitted to
put on this testimony as it arises -
THE COURT:
I will let you make your oral proffer. Just state
what you want to prove.
MR. BELL:
Well, I think in this situation -
THE COURT:
Well, that is the way I want you to prove it. So
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A. Adams, Dir.
proceed.
MR * BELL :
I think Rule 43c, if I may, your honor, provides in
its last sentence that in actions tried without a jury, the same
procedure may be followed as to the offer, except that the Court
upon request shall take and report the evidence in full unless
it clearly appears that the evidence is not admissible on any
grounds or that the witness is privileged.
THE COURT:
I don*t want to hear any more on that. I am fully
familiar with that rule. I am saying that it is not competent
for any purpose, and that is the reason I am letting you build
your record, you can state in the record for the record as your
proffer what it is that you offer to prove by this witness.
MR, BELL:
That is why I am saying, your honor, the rule, as I
understand it, gives us the right to actually put the testimony
in evidence.
THE COURT:
I don't think so.
MR . B ELL:
Could I be heard on that, your honor?
THE COURT:
876.
No further, I am thoroughly familiar with that rule
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877 i
A. Adams, Dir.
MR. BELL:
Could we then perhaps have about a five-minute re
cess to determine what we should do. I had no idea that we
would not be permitted to abide by the rules, to put on testi
mony so that could be presented to the Court of Appeals in
this fashion -
THE COURT:
I am offering to let you make your proffer of proof,
I dontt know what more you want unless you want to waste some
more time asking this witness questions that I think are com
pletely outside the range of your pleadings, as I have already
ruled.
MR. BELL:
Could we still perhaps have a five-minute recess,
to determine what we should do on it?
THE COURT:
All right, take the recess, - we will just remain
in here. I want to get along on this case.
(At this time there was a recess for those
who wished to confer, with the Court remaining
in attendance in the court room, after which
the proceedings continued as follows:)
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878 .
MR. BELL:
A. Adams - Dir.
Let the record show that if the witness had been
permitted to testify concerning her visit to the Trinity
Lutheran Church in Jackson, Mississippi, on November 10th,
it is counsel's opinion that she would have testified that
when she and a small group of others approached the Church
they were told by an official of the Church that negroes
were not welcomed, and that while discussing the matter with
him policemen approached the group and threatened this witness
and her companions with arrest unless they immediately departed.
The group then did depart and in that way avoided
arre s t.
The witness would further testify that her purpose
in going to the Trinity Church, which is generally thought of
as a white church, was an effort to meet and discuss her posi
tion on racial segregation with persons who are Christians and
therefore would hopefully be more amenable with and sympathetic
to her views.
I think that should do it.
I think we have no further questions.
BY THE COURT:
All right.
BY MR. TRAVIS:
No questions. (Witness excused)
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879 .
HELEN 0' NEAL
having first been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Will you state your name?
A. Helen O'Neal.
Q. Do you live in Mississippi?
A. That's right, Clarksdale.
Q. You are going to have to talk extremely loud. Are
you a student now?
A. No, I am not.
Q. Where are you living at the present time?
A. Tougaloo, Mississippi.
Q. Did you take part in 1963 in certain protest
activities?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did one of them concern a park?
A. That's correct.
Q. Tell the Court what happened when you went there.
A. It was on July 7th. We went to Battlefield Park.
Q. Who is "We"?
A. I went to the park with a group of students, Jessie
Harris, Hezekiah Watkins and some others whom I can't remember.
Q. And what did you do in the park?
A. We played ball and went swinging
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0*Neal - Direct
Q. Were you able to continue playing ball?
A. No, we were stopped by the police officers of
J ackson.
way
Q. What happened?
A. They drove us out of the park and we were
home and they arrested us.
Q. What did they arrest you for?
A. The charge was obstructing the sidewalk.
Q. Where were you?
A. On the corner of Dalton and Florence.
Q. How many of you were there?
A. About fifteen.
Q. You are a negro are you not, Miss 0*Neal?
A. That*s correct.
Q. What were those who were with you?
on ou r
A. Negro.
Q. Are there any sidewalks in that area?
A. No there is no sidewalk.
Q. What part of the area were you walking on?
A. Next to the curb.
Q. Were you arrested on another occasion in August?
A. In August for canvassing.
Q. Tell the court what happened.
A. I was asked to canvass for the first primary and I
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881.
0*Neal - Direct
was going from house to house knocking on the doors, telling
people that they could take an affidavit to the poll. I was
on my way to the fourth house — -
BY THE COURT:
Speak out a little please.
THE WITNESS:
I was arrested on my way to the fourth house, for
passing out handbills without a permit.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Under what circumstances were you arrested? Did
the police say anything to you? Did they tell you initially
what you were arrested for?
A. No.
Q. What happened?
A. I was starting to the fourth house and they told me
l,come here, girl1*, and I went. Then they called in to the
police department and I could hear them tell the police depart
ment that they had a subject, and they told him to bring the
subject in.
Q. Did they place you under arrest?
A. They placed me under arrest then, and told me to get
in the car.
Q. What?
A. They told me to get in the car.
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882 .
0*Neal - Direct
Q. Did they tell you what the charges were?
A. No.
Q. When did you find out?
A. I found that out, I think, when I was being booked.
Q. Down at the station?
A. That*s true.
Q. Had they talked to anybody else about it, to your
knowledge?
A. I don*t know.
Q. What type of literature or pamphlet was this?
A. I had a short sheet of paper telling people what
church to go to.
Q. For what purpose?
A. To pick up an affidavit to take to the polls in the
first primary, and then I had the affidavit that they would
fill out for the first primary.
Q. Had you been leaving this on the outside of the
houses?
A. No, I hadn*t.
Q. Had you been inside as you told them?
A. I had been inside.
Q. Had any person to whom you had spoken complained?
A. No.
Q. Now are these your only two arrests for protesting?
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883 .
O’Neal - Direct
A. No.
Q. When were you arrested before that?
A. r was arrested in 1961.
Q. For what?
A. For picketing the Southern Governors Conference.
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, we want to object to this
witness’s activity in 1961 with reference to the Southern
Governor’s Conference.
BY THE COURT:
Southern what?
MR. WATKINS:
Southern Governor’s Conference.
MRS. MORRIS:
If the Court please, she said she was arrested for
picketing in 1961 and I think this comes within the area of
the policy, if for no other reason.
THE COURT:
I will overrule the bbjection, go ahead.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. You were picketing in 1961.
A. That is correct.
Q. How many persons were there?
A. One other person.
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884 .
o.
A.
to the st
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
them said
O’Neal - Direct.
How were you walking?
We were walking next to the curb , the sidewalk, next
reet part.
Whe re ?
In front of the Heidelberg Hotel on Capitol Street.
Is that where the conference was taking place?
That* s right.
And did you have signs?
We had signs.
What did they say?
I can remember now what they said. I think one of
‘♦Governor, lead us to the future and not to the past”.
THE COURT:
Said what?
A. ‘‘Governor, lead us to the future and not to the past.”
MRS. MORRES:
Q. Were there signs protesting civil rights
A. There were signs protesting the Governor’s
ference which fitted into the area of Civil Rights.
Q. How long were you able to picket ?
A. We picketed for about fifteen minutes.
Q. Then what happened?
A. After about ten minutes one police officer came up
and told us, me and the other person I was with, to move on,
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885 .
0TNeal - Direct
and we continued to picket, and then he went and made a call,
I’m not sure, and other police officers, one of them was Captain
Ray, and he told the other person to move on, and by the time I
made it up there, he said, ’’girl, what are you going to do?”
And I just told him I was with the other person, and they put
us under arrest.
Q. Did you know what you were arrested for?
A. Breach of the peace.
Q. Was any crowd gathered?
A. No.
Q. Were you blocking any pedestrians in the area?
A. No.
Q. And there was no crowd gathered?
A. No crowd, there were some people on the other side of
the street who were Negro friends of mine.
Q. And there was nobody else gathered to watch.
A. Nobody else.
THE COURT:
Q. Are you a student at Tougaloo?
A. No, I am working there on a special educational
proj ect.
Q. That is at the college.
A, That is correct.
Q. What age person are you?
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886 .
MRS
MR.
you
O’Neal - Direct
A. Twenty-two.
Q. You finished out at Tougaloo.
A. I finished at Jackson State.
MORRIS:
I have no further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
TRAVIS:
Q. Who are you employed by?
A. I am employed by the Deibold Group of New York City.
Q. What is the Deibold Group?
A. It is a group that works with automation.
Q. Who were you employed by prior to this time, in 1961?
A. 1961 I was a student, I was not employed.
Q. Now, you didn’t tell us who this other person was that
were arrested with in 1961? Who was it?
A. Richard Haley.
Q. Who was Richard Haley?
A. A field secretary for CORE at that time.
Q. Field secretary for CORE at that time.
A. That is correct.
Q. Were you employed by CORE at that time?
A. No, I was not.
Q. Was that a CORE demonstration -
A. No, it was not.
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887 .
O’Neal - Cr,
Q. Was it a CORE Demonstration or a NAACP?
A. It was neither.
Q. It was neither. What was it?
A. Jackson non-violent movement demonstration.
Q. What is the Jackson Non-Violent Movement?
A. At that time the Jackson Non-violent Movement was a
group made up of students from Jackson, Mississippi.
Q. What did the other signs say?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. How does this sound, - ’’Why don’t you join the United
States?”
A. I don’t remember.
Q. Now, you stated that you were arrested also for pass
ing out handbills on 8-2-62, is that correct?
A. I am not sure of the date, I know it was the Friday
before the First Primary.
Q. That was in August.
A. That is correct.
Q. The first part of August - would August 2nd sound
about right?
A. If that is Friday before the first primary.
Q. And you were charged with distributing handbills with
out a permit. Did you have a permit for that?
A. I wasn’t distributing, I was canvassing.
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O’Neal - Cr.
888 .
Q. Well, you said you had the handbills.
A. I was taking things to people’s houses, I wasn’t dis-
t ributing
Q. Did you have a permit -
A. No, I did not.
Q. To carry handbills to people’s houses?
A. No, I didn’t have a permit.
Q. And as a matter of fact, you paid a $25.00 fine on
that charge, and it has been disposed of, isn’t that right?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Did you have an attorney in that case?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And who was your attorney?
A. Attorney Hall.
Q. And he sits here at the counsel table in front of you,
that is the honorable Carsie Hall.
A. That is correct.
Q. And he had your authority to handle that case in any
way he saw fit.
A. That is correct.
Q. And if he paid a $25 fine for you about August 2,
1963, and the case was disposed of in that manner, - that was
all right with you.
MRS. MORRIS:
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889 .
THE
MR.
we re
OJNeal - Cr.
r object to that, your honor, -
COURT:
I will sustain the objection.
TRAVIS:
Q. Now, you say this was July 7th.
A. July 7th.
Q. Are you sure it was not June 7th?
A. June 7th. I mean June 7th.
Q. You said July, but it was June.
A. June 7th.
Q. And you are sure.
A. I am positive.
Q. Now, you weren’t arrested in the park?
A. No, I was not.
Q. You were arrested many blocks away in a public street,
you not?
A. That is correct.
Q. What street were you arrested on?
A. On the corner of Dalton and Florence.
Q. Now, are you familiar with Florence at all?
A. I lived on Florence, I was on my way home.
Q. I thought you lived at Tougaloo.
A. I do now.
Q. You do now.
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890 .
0*Neal - Cr.
A. Yes.
Q. Well, in any event, when was the first time and where
were you the first time when Chief Ray asked you to move out of
the street?
A. I don’t remember him asking us to move out cf the
street, he asked us to leave the park, and we left.
Q. How many times did you see him when you were in the
street? How many of you did you say there were?
A. About fifteen.
Q. Would it surprise you to know that there were more
than that?
A. There were a lot of people outside - there were police
cars following -
Q. I am speaking of the group that you were with when
you were arrested.
A. No, it was about fifteen.
Q. This is the same group that Hezekiah Watkins was
with?
A. That is correct.
Q. You can’t tell us whether or not or if so how many
times Chief Ray asked you to move out of the street?
A. No, I can’t.
Q. Well, you are not telling us that he didn’t ask you
to move out of the street, are you?
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891 .
OtNeal - Cr.
A. Well, I didn’t hear him tell us to move, now.
Q. Well, did you see a police car come by you -
A. (interposing) I saw several police cars riding along
side of us.
Q. And you are not in a position to tell us whether or
not those police officers sent those vehicles after you or that
they asked you to move -
A. No.
not
Q. You are/saying that they did not ask you to move, you
are simply saying that you did not hear it, if they did.
A. That is correct.
Q. Just one question relating to this picketing on July
19, 1961, you knew that that was a meeting of the Southerner
Governors Conference, did you not?
A. That is correct.
Q. And that there were governors from all the southern
states.
A. I knew that there were governors from Arkansas,
Louisiana, Alabama, and Mississippi.
Q. And those were the only ones that you were concerned
with.
A. I knew they were there.
Q. You knew they were there. Were your signs complimen
tary to those men or uncomplimentary?
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892 .
O’Neal - Cr.
A. Well -
MRS. MORRIS:
Your honor, I think she can say what the sign
said, but I object to her interpreting -
THE COURT;
I will let you rephrase your question. Sustained.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Do you remember what the signs said?
A. I remember only what one sign said.
Q. You don’t remember what most of the signs aid.
A. There were four signs, I remember.
Q. There were four signs, and you only remember what one
of them said.
A. I remember what one said.
Q. One. Now, are you familiar with the tenor of the four
signs?
A. I am familiar with the one I remember.
Q. Well, do you know what the other - generally what the
other four had on them?
A. I can’t remember.
Q. Who printed these signs?
A. I did.
Q. Well, did you intend to be complimentary or uncom
plimentary?
A. I think the one that L remember was a plea.
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893 .
O’Neal - Cr. O’Neal Redir.
Q. Well, was that plea complimentary or uncomplimentary?
A. I don*t know whether the plea was complimentary or
uncomplimentary?
MR. TRAVIS:
That is all.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. The time you were on Dalton Street after leaving the
park, you indicated that police cars were following the group
you were with?
A. That’s right, they were riding alongside.
Q. For how long a period of time did they do that?
A. Well, I guess this is about seven or eight blocks
from Florence, I am not really sure, and I am not sure how long
it took us to walk that distance , I guess about ten minutes.
Q. And where had you started from?
A. From tBne park.
Q. Did this area have a sidewalk as such?
A. No, it does not.
Q. What area were you walking in on the street?
A. The street has a little thing, a little line, where
people walk when they are walking, right next to the curb, -
about this wide.
Q. Approximately three feet?
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894 .
MRS
wa s
MRS
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0*Neal - Redir.
A. I guess so,
Q. And you were walking there, in that area.
A. That is correct.
. MORRIS:
That is all. (Witness excused)
FRANKIE ADAMS
called as a witness, was duly sworn, and testified:
. MORRIS: DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q. What is your name?
A. Frankie Adams.
Q. Where do you live?
A. Jackson, Mississippi.
Q. How long have you lived here?
A. Three years.
Q. Where were you born?
A. Clinton, Mississippi.
Q. I canTt hear you, you will have to speak louder.
A. Clinton.
Q. Mississippi?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I call your attention to the summer of 1963,
you participate in any protest demonstration on June 13th?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Where did it start?
A. The demonstration began on Farish Street to Rose St
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895 .
FRANKIE ADAMS, Dir.
Q. And how many were in the group?
A. Oh, about 80.
Q. And where were you walking?
A. We were walking on Rose Street.
Q. Where had you been before you got to Rose Street?
A. Before we got to Rose I had been in a meeting at Pearl
Street Church.
Q. Were there police in the area at the time?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. Were you walking on the sidewalk or the street?
A. On the side of the street.
Q. On the side of the street?
A. Yes.
Q. How long had you walked before you came upon a police
man?
A. We had walked about a block and a half, I guess.
Q. Were you in any formation?
A. We were walking in two’s.
Q. Did you have any signs, flags or anything?
A. We had American Flags.
Q. Were there any people in the area, any onlookers?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. Where were they?
A. Some were standing in their yards, and some on the
896 .
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FRANKIE ADAMS, Dir.
sidewalk.
Q. How many policeman do you think were in the area?
A. I would say about 25.
Q. Where were they?
A. Well, some was at the intersection of Rose Street
and I remember seeing some -
Q. Wait a minute, at the intersection of Rose Street
and what?
A. Pearl, and I remember seeing some on the sidewalk,
maybe some in people’s yards.
Q. And there were some in people’s yards too.
/ A. Yes.
Q. Now, were you arrested on this occasion?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Who arrested you? Do you know?
A. No, I don’t.
Q. What were you charged with?
A. Parading without a permit.
Q. The group that was walking, were they singing or
talking or anything?
A. No.
Q. Was it a quiet participating?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you participated in a protest from Brinkley
and
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897 .
(Frankie Adams - Direct)
High School on May 31st?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Now, other than those two occasions, were you
arrested in any other protests in 1963?
A. I was arrested on June first and July 24th.
Q. Now, what happened on July 24th?
A. On July the 24th a group of Negro citizens had
met at Farish Street Baptist Church for our usual workshop
meeting.
Q. What were you having a workshop for?
A. Beg your pardon.
Q. What were you having a workshop for?
A. In our workshop meetings, we were getting pupils
to go out and get people to register.
Q. To vote?
A. And to vote. And we had met at Pearl Street for
this workshop meeting, and we also had planned to go out to
the new airport.
Q. Did you go to the airport?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And you returned from the airport?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. What happened then?
A. When we returned from the airport, just as we
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898 .
(Frankie Adams - Direct)
had gotten in the church they said that Jesse Harris had been
arrested for contributing to the delinquency of a minor, and
most of the kids got upset about this, so they all hollered:
"Let's protest — let's picket the jailhouse", and we got to
gether and did this in an orderly fashion, and after we had
gotten together, twelve of us, we climbed out the window of
Farish Street Church and went out the back.
Q. Why did you go out the back door?
A. Because on the front, I think it was about two
cars of policemen on the front, and so after we had gotten out
the back, we went behind College Library and there we got into
two cars and went to the jailhouse and picketed it up and
down the sidewalk in two's until the officers came out, and
they looked at first and then they told us that we was under
arrest.
Q. Where were you picketing?
A. Where were we picketing?
Q. What area — were you on the sidewalk or in the
street?
A. On the sidewalk.
Q . On what part of the sidewalk?
A. What part of the sidewalk?
Q . Do you know?
A. No, I don't.
899 .
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(Frankie Adams - Direct)
Q. Were people —
MR. TRAVIS:
24th?
Pardon me, are we still talking about July the
MRS. MORRIS:
I hope so.
Q. Are you sure of the date?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. As near as you remember, it was July the 24th?
A. Yes.
Q. I believe you said you were picketing out in
front of the Police Station?
A. No, in front — it's the City Jail.
Q. Now, were people able to go by you at that time?
A. Yes, I know people was able to go by, because
as we were picketing, some Negro students passed us and look
ed and they said: what are you doing. We didn't give them
any reply.
Q. Now, what were you doing at that time? Why
were you in front of the City Jail?
A. Well, we was protesting because they had arrest
ed — a white citizen, I mean, a policeman, had arrested
Jesse Harris for —
Q. Who is Jesse Harris?
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900 .
(Frankie Adams - Direct)
A. Jesse Harris — who is Jesse Harris? Well, as
far as I know,he is a member — he works with the SNCC group.
Q. Now, had he been working with any group that
you know about?
A. No, I don't.
Q. He had been working in civil rights work, as
far as you know?
A. Yes.
THE COURT:
Is he white or colored?
THE WITNESS:
Jesse Harris is a Negro.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. You're a Negro, aren't you, Frankie?
A. Yes, I am.
MRS. MORRIS:
That completes my questioning.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Now, you said you were arrested on how many
occasions in 1963?
A. Four.
Q . Four ?
A. Yes.
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901 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
Q. When was the first of these occasions?
A. The first one was on the 31st of May.
Q. And where was this?
A. On Livingston Road.
Q. How many persons were arrested on that occasion
with you, do you know?
A. I’m not sure, but it was between eighty and one
hundred.
Q. Well, it was a large group of you then?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And where had you gotten together on this occa
sion?
A. We have a Youth Council in our neighborhood.
Q. The Youth Council of what?
A. The North Jackson Youth Council.
Q. Of the NAACP?
A. Yes.
Q. All right, and you are a member of that?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Was it the Youth Council of the NAACP that organi
zed this parade that you were in on May 31st?
A. I wouldn’t say the Youth Council organized it.
All the students was willing to protest and they was willing
to demonstrate.
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(Frankie Adams - Cross)
Q. Well, did you get together at the NAACP Youth
Council Meeting — is that where you started from?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Would it surprise you if I told
you it was ninety-four of you arrested on that occasion?
A. It could have been. I said it was between
eighty and one hundred.
_________________________________________________________________________902.
Q. And they were not all minors, were they?
A. No.
Q. How old are you?
A. I’m eighteen now.
Q. Now, on this occasion, you were on Livingston
or Ridgeway?
A. Livingston.
Q. Livingston. And did the police officers
approach you and stop you?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Did they ask you whether or not you had a per
mit to parade?
A. They did.
Q. They asked you that on three occasions, did
they not? We're speaking of May 31st.
A. I’m not sure. They could have.
Q. Well, you’re not going to tell the Court or me
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(Frankie Adams - Cross)
that you were not asked several times whether or not you or
any member of that group had a permit to parade?
A. I said they asked us did we have a permit to
______________________________________________________________________________ 903 .
parade.
Q. All right. And after that — you didn't have
a permit to parade, did you?
A. No, we didn't.
Q. You did?
A. We didn't.
Q. You did not. And after that the police officer
asked you and the others to disperse and move on out of the
area and stop blocking the street, didn't he?
A. Well, we wasn't blocking the street, but they
asked us to disperse.
Q. He asked you to disperse and move out of the
street several times, did he not?
A. I don't recall him asking us to move out of
the street. I know they asked us to disperse.
Q. All right, he asked you to disperse and there
were a number of them that did disperse and move on out of the
street, were there not?
A. That's right.
Q. So everybody that wanted to move out and dis
perse and get out of the street had an opportunity to do so, is
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904 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. But you were not one of those who dispersed
and moved out of the street, were you?
A. No.
Q. And you and ninety-three others were then
arrested on this occasion?
A Yes. I don't know whether there was ninety-
three others, but I know I was arrested.
Q Well, you said it was between eighty and a
hundred. But there were a large number of you arrested in the
street on this occasion?
A Yes.
Q All right. Now, you had taken that street
over, had you not?
A No, we hadn't taken the street over.
Q What had you done?
A. Well, as a matter of fact, we were not in the
street at all, because it's a larger side on the side of the
street. We wasn't in the street — we was on the side.
Q. On the side of the street?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there a sidewalk there?
A. No, it's not a sidewalk there.
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905 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
Q. So you were in the street then, is that right
or wrong?
A. Well, I still say we wasn’t in the street.
Q. All right, you say you were not in the street.
Then you were over on the dirt or entirely out of the street?
A. Yes, we was out of the street.
Q. All right. Now, did you have any difficulty
making bond, getting out of jail on this occasion?
A. No, I didn’t.
Q. You did not?
A. No.
Q. As a matter of fact, you didn’t have any
trouble making bond and getting out of jail on any one of
these other occasions that you were arrested on, did you?
A. I’m afraid I don’t understand.
Q. Well, you were able to get out of jail when
bond was supplied for you, were you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Nobody gave you any difficulty on that, on
each one of the four occasions that you were arrested last
summer?
A. No.
Q. Is that right?
A. Yes.
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906 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
Q When was the next time you were arrested?
A The next time that I was arrested?
Q That's right.
A June the first.
Q June first — that was the very next day?
A Yes .
Q Now, where did you start from on this occasion*'
A From the Temple on Lynch Street.
Q Is that the Masonic Temple on Lynch Street?
A Yes, it is.
Q. And that's the headquarters of the NAACP, is
it not?
A Yes, it is.
Q Was this another one of your NAACP workshops
that you left from on this parade?
A Well, it really wasn't a workshop, but —
Q. It was an NAACP meeting, is that correct?
A. Well, I would say it was a Jackson Movement
meeting. I wouldn't say it was NAACP.
Q. What’s the difference between the NAACP in
North Jackson and the Jackson Movement?
A. Well, in the Jackson Movement, all the people
could not be members of the NAACP.
Q. What kept them from being members of the NAACP:
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907 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
A. I'm afraid I can't answer that.
Q. Well, why did you say it?
A. Why did I say it?
Q. Yes.
A. What —
Q. Well, let's move on, if you don't know. Let's
get back to this next day that you were arrested on, June the
first. You left the NAACP meeting or whatever it was or
Jackson Movement or whatever it is, and went in the street
where?
A. Lynch Street.
Q. Lynch Street. And where were you — did you
go from the Masonic Temple into Lynch Street?
A. Yes.
Q. And you went into the middle of the street on
this occasion, or into Lynch Street?
A. I don't remember.
Q. How many of you were in this group?
A. I'm not sure, so I won't say.
Q. Well, would it surprise you if I told you ther5
were ninety-two of you arrested on this occasion?
A. Could have been. I really don't know.
Q. Could have been. Now, I wish you would tell
me whether or not you went into the street?
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908 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, she has already answered that.
She said she didn't remember.
THE COURT:
All right, go ahead. If she didn't remember,
that's sufficient. If you want to refresh her memory, all
right, go ahead.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Now, you weren't arrested at Lynch Street,
were you?
A. No, I wasn't arrested there.
Q. You were arrested at Pascagoula and Poindexter
weren't you?
A. I believe so.
Q. Now, were you on Poindexter or Pascagoula
when you were arrested?
A. I'm not sure which one of the streets it was,
I'm afraid.
Q. Now, I don't want to impose on your memory,
but could you tell me whether you were on the street or the
sidewalk at the time you were arrested?
A. I don't remember — I don't remember that
occasion too well.
Q. Did you have a permit to parade on this
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occasion?
909.
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
A. No.
Q. Did the officer again ask you if you had a per
mit to parade — twice, three times?
A. I'm not sure. I don't quite remember, but I
know I marched on that —
Q. In the street?
A. I don't remember.
Q. You don't remember. Now, did the police officer
on this occasion ask you to move out of the street or disperse
and move on, or have you forgotten that also?
A. I've forgotten that also.
Q. Now, what about — but you do remember on this
occasion you were placed in jail, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You're sure of that?
A. I'm sure.
Q. All right, and you didn't have any difficulty
when your bond was provided, getting out of jail, did you?
A. No.
Q. All right. Now, when was the next occasion
that you were arrested on?
A. June 13th.
Q. June 13th — was this also for parading without
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910 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
a permit?
A. That's what the officer say it was.
Q. Excuse me, I missed your answer.
A. That's what the officer say it was.
Q. All right, what do you say?
A. Well, really to my idea, we wasn't parading.
Q. What were you doing?
A. Well, walking down the street peacefully, uh —
Q. Let me —
MRS. MORRIS:
You interrupted, counsel.
MR . TRAVIS:
Q. Go ahead.
A. Walking down the street peacefully and trying
to show the white people of Jackson, Mississippi, that we
weren't satisfied with the things that we have to put up with.
Q. Well, that's not a white neighborhood out there,
is it?
A. Well, we really didn't get where we was on our
way to.
Q. Didn't get what?
A. We really didn't get where we were on our way
to. We were stopped before we —
Q. I see. Well, let me ask you. You said — you
911 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
said you were in the street. Now, I don’t want to impose on
your memory, but are you sure you were in the street this
time?
A. Am I sure?
Q. Uh huh. This is the 13th of June — Rose Street
at Deerpark?
A. Yes, we were in the street.
Q. All right, you were in the street. How many of
you were in the group on this occasion?
A. Well, I know — I’m not sure, but it was be
tween — it was between — I'm not sure, but I know it was
eighty some people.
Q. Eighty-four — is that about right?
A. Yes.
Q. That were arrested. Now, there are sidewalks
out there, aren’t there?
A. Yes, there are.
Q. But you weren't on these sidewalks?
A . No.
Q. You were in the street?
A. Yes.
Q. And the other eighty-four people — eighty-
three people that were arrested were in the street with you?
A. I don’t know that, because I don’t know who was
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912 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
behind me — I mean way back behind me, so I can only speak for
myself.
Q. Well, you said they were in two's — I thought
you said, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, were they behind or just where?
A. Well, I can't see a mile behind me.
Q. Were they a mile behind you?
A. Beg your pardon.
Q. Were the people in two's a mile behind you on
Rose Street?
A. I don't know how far they were behind me.
Q. How far were they in front of you?
A. Well, there was about six couples in front of me.
Q. Well, now, you can be sure about the six couples
in front of you, can't you?
A. Of course.
Q. Of course. Where were they in the street — in
the middle of the street or —
A. They were on the side of the street.
Q. On the side of the street. Which side of the
street were they on?
A. I don't remember.
Q. You don't remember. Now, that's a very narrow
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
street, isn’t it — Rose Street?
A. Well, I haven't really looked at it. I mean,
you know, really looked at it real hard, so I don’t know
whether it’s narrow or not.
Q. What happened to traffic when you all were in
913 .
that street?
A. Well, I couldn’t really say, because I don't
know.
Q. Well, you weren't concerned about traffic, were
you?
A. I wasn’t concerned about traffic. Well, we
wasn't blocking traffic, I don't think. We was on the side of
the street.
Q. Well, now, were you on the sidewalk or in the
street?
A. I was on the side of the street.
Q. Well, now, you told me that there were sidewalks
there?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. Now, that street is for use of vehicular traffic
and the sidewalk is used for foot traffic, are they not?
A. I guess so.
Q. And doesn't just common knowledge and reason
cause you to know that is true, that the sidewalks are for
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914 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
foot traffic and the streets are for vehicular traffic?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to the form of the question.
It's argumentative.
THE COURT:
Yes, I think so. All right, go ahead.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Well, I just want to be sure that you were in the
street and not on the sidewalk?
A. Yes, I was in the street.
Q. All right. Now, again the police officers
approached and stopped you, didn't they — this is the third
time I'm talking about?
A. They did.
Q. And he had a bull horn, a loud speaker, did he
not?
A. I think so.
Q. And again he asked you if you or anybody in the
group had a permit to parade, did he not?
A. Yes.
Q. Several times, did he not?
A. Twice.
Q. Twice. And nobody had a permit to parade, did
they?
915 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
A. Well, so no one gave a reply — I didn’t hear
anyone give a reply.
Q. I didn’t ask you about any reply that was given.
I asked you if you or anyone in this group had a permit to
parade?
A. Well, I can’t speak for anyone else, but I know
I didn't have a permit.
Q. You didn't — well, as far as you know, did any
one else have a permit to parade?
A . I don’t know.
Q. You don’t know. Now, by now you ought to have
realized that you needed a permit to parade — June 13th.
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, he's arguing again with the witness.
That's not even a question.
MR. TRAVIS:
THE COURT:
I will withdraw the question
All right.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. I ask you this. Did the officer then, after
determining that you didn’t have a permit, ask you to disperse
and move on, move out of the street?
A. They did.
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916 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
Q. He asked you that several times, didn’t he?
A. Twice.
Q. Twice. And there were some of them with this
group that did move out of the street and onto the sidewalk,
were there not?
A. I don’t know.
Q. You don’t know?
A. I don’t know whether they moved. I mean, I
can’t — I didn't move, but I don’t know whether —
Q. You know you didn’t, but you had plenty of time
to move if you wanted to, out of the street, didn't you?
A. I did.
Q. So you just took the street over?
A. No, I didn’t take the street over.
THE COURT:
Did some of them move who were ordered to move,
or do you know?
THE WITNESS:
I don't know.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Now, there were a large number of people on the
street out there on this occasion, were there not?
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(Frankie Adams - Cross)
917 .
A. A large number of people?
Q. I mean other than those that were taking over
the street?
A. Well, there was some on the sidewalks and in
their yards
Q. Well, was there a large number of them?
A. As far as I could see, yes.
Q- And were these people quiet, or what was going
on?
A Well, I really couldn't tell you what was going
on, because I wasn't too concerned.
Q. Well, you were there, weren't you?
A Yes, I was there.
Q Well, I was not, so I’m trying to get you to
tell me, so we will know. I want to know if there was any
kind of rusing, hollering, yelling, screaming, or anything
like that that went on at this time?
A. Well, the people on the sidewalk, yes, they kind
of made some noise. I mean, there wasn’t any demonstrations.
Q Was there anything that was disorderly or noisy
or anything like that?
A Well, that depends on what you call disorderly
and noisy.
THE COURT:
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918 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
Depends what?
THE WITNESS:
noisy.
I say it depends on what you call disorderly and
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. That's all you can tell us about this occasion -
June the 13th? Did you hear any profanity or anything like
that?
A No, but I was struck by an officer on this occa-
sion.
Q You were struck by an officer?
A Yes .
Q What officer was that?
A I really don't know, because all of them wear —
just about all of them wear blue suits, and they all look alik
to me.
Q Well, you had been to these workshops and so on
that the NAACP sponsored, hadn't you? You have already told
us that you have.
A Beg your pardon.
Q You have already told us that you have been in
a number of these NAACP workshops?
A. Yes, I have.
Q So I take it you knew what to do in case some
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919 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
policeman hit you or struck you in any way?
A. I beg your pardon.
Q. I take it then, that you knew at this time what
to do in the event some policeman struck you?
A. Well, at this time, I wasn't aware that a police
officer was going to hit me.
Q. Where did you get struck — where were you struc
A. After I was arrested and taken to the fair
grounds, I had gotten out of the city truck, I guess you would
call it, to pick up my cap, and as I was getting back in, the
police officer struck me across my back.
Q. All right. Did you make any complaint to any
official of the city of Jackson about this?
A. I did.
Q. And who did you complain to — what official of
the city of Jackson?
A. I made out an affidavit, you know.
Q. All right, did you make out an affidavit to the
city of Jackson?
A. To the city of Jackson?
Q. Did some representative of the city of Jackson
give you an affidavit to sign and did you sign it?
A. Well, Lawyer Young gave me the affidavit to
sign.
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920 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
Q. Well, now, he was your lawyer, was he not?
A. I suppose so.
Q. Let me put it this way. He was the lawyer repre
senting you in these matters?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you make any complaint to anybody, other
than this affidavit, you say?
A. No.
Q. Did you complain to any agency of the Federal
government about this blow you received?
A. Well, I complained to the officers that was down
at the fairground, and they let me stay there for about an
hour before they came in to take me up to the hospital. And
after they took me up there, I had to stay in University for
about two hours before they came in to see about me up there.
So I feel it wouldn't do any good to talk.
Q. Well, you weren't in too bad a shape then, I
take it?
A. Well, I stayed sore for about tWo weeks and I
was bruised, and then it was across my back also.
Q. Did you attempt to jump off of one of these
trucks?
A. No, I didn't attempt to jump off a truck.
Q. Now, let me ask you this. Was that the last
921
1 (Frankie Adams - Cross)
2 occasion that you participated in one of these parades?
3 A. No.
4 Q. When was the next occasion then?
5 A. July the 24th.
6 Q. July the 24th. And that was the one that your
7 counsel was asking you about, I believe. That was when you
8 jumped out of the window of the Farish Street Baptist Church?
9 A . Yes.
10 Q. And you all were all excited?
11 A. I beg your pardon.
12 Q. Well, the ones that jumped out of the window —
13 that climbed out the window — you said the kids got upset
14 and said: let’s hit the jailhouse. What led up to them be
15 coming upset?
16 A. Well, they had arrested Jesse Harris and we
17 wanted to protest about it.
18 Q. Now, is that Jesse James Harris?
19 A. I don’t know. All I know is just Jesse Harris.
20 Q. Did you know him?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. All right. And when you say you were upset,
23 describe just what you mean by being upset — were you angry
24 and mad about it?
25 A, Well, I can only speak for myself. Yes, I was
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922 .
angry.
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
Q. You were mad. Now, who was this that screamed,
"let’s hit the jailhouse"?
A. I didn’t say anyone screamed: "let’s hit the
jailhouse" .
Q. Well, who — you said that you were upset and
somebody shouted: "let’s hit the jailhouse".
A. Well, I don’t know, because most of the kids
was ready to picket the jailhouse.
Q. Well, in your examination with the other attor
ney, you said that somebody said "let’s hit the jailhouse".
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to that. It’s not my
recollection that the witness testified that anybody yelled:
"let’s hit the jailhouse".
MR. TRAVIS:
I’ll stand on the record.
MRS. MORRIS:
I will, too.
THE COURT:
I remember something like that. Let her
straighten it out by question and answer. Go ahead.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Was such a statement made?
923 .
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(Frankie Adams - Cross)
A. I said — yes, I said that someone said: let's
picket the jailhouse.
Q. I understand you say "picket” now. I ask you
if you said before: "let's hit the jailhouse"?
A. No, I told you before I never said that anyone
said, "let's hit the jailhouse."
Q. All right. Now, when you went out the window
how many of you went out the window of the church?
A. It was twelve or thirteen of us.
Q. And was this when you went out to the airport?
A. We had gone out to the airport before then, yes
Q. Well, now, what had you done at the airport?
A. We wanted to go see the new airport and see was
the things — the facilities at the airport desegregated as
they had said. They were supposed to be.
Q. Well, that's a facility of the city of Jackson,
is it not?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you find it met to your satisfaction or
not?
A. Well, they didn't exactly meet our satisfaction.
I mean, the facilities did, but the white people out there
were rather nasty.
Q. There were police out there, were there not?
924 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
A. Yes, there was.
Q. And they didn’t in any way, prevent you from
doing anything you wanted to do out there, did they?
A. No.
Q. And you stayed out there quite a while, did you
not?
A. About two hours.
Q. You stayed out there about two hours, and
checked out everything out there, didn’t you?
A. I wouldn’t say everything.
Q. Well, let me phrase it this way. You went
everywhere you desired to go?
A. Yes.
Q. And the police of the city of Jackson,in no
way,interfered with you, did they?
A. Beg your pardon.
Q. The police of the city of Jackson, in no way,
interfered with you, did they?
A. No, they didn’t say anything to me.
Q. Now, you left the airport, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And came back to —
A. Farish Street Baptist Church.
Q. And this is the time that all of this occurred?
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925 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
That is when you heard about Jesse Harris?
A. Yes.
Q. And you then went in a group from the Farish
Street — how did you go to the jail?
A. In two cars.
Q. And whose cars were these?
A. Well, the one I went in was Mr. I. C. Walker’s.
Q. Who is he?
A. A member of the South Jackson Youth Council
out there.
Q. Of the NAACP?
A. Yes.
Q. And you went down to Pascagoula Street and
began your parade?
A. I guess it was Pascagoula. I know we got out
and got on the sidewalk.
Q. Well, the jail is on Pascagoula — the City
Jail. Is that where you were?
A. Yes.
Q. All right, so you got out on the corner there
and how many of you were there?
A. Twelve or thirteen, I’m not sure.
Q. Twelve or thirteen of you, and what were you
doing?
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926 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
A. Picketing the jailhouse.
Q. Picketing the jailhouse. And did you have on
signs or something?
A. Yes.
Q. All of you had signs?
A. No, because I didn't have one.
Q. What did you have?
A. I didn't have anything. I was walking up and
down the sidewalk.
Q. And how were you all walking?
A. In two's about five feet apart.
Q. In two's and following one another on the side
walk, is that right or wrong?
A. That's right.
Q. And you turned around then and marched back
and forth, is that what you are telling us?
A. Yes, we walked back and forth.
Q. How long did this go on?
A. About five minutes, I would say.
Q. All right. What happened to the people try
ing to use the sidewalk during this period of time?
A. Well, the ones that was trying to use it
passed by.
Q. Well, do you know how they had to move to pass
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927
you?
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
A. Well, no, but I know they got by.
Q. Now, again a police officer approached you,
did he not?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he ask you again whether or not you had a
permit to parade?
A. Well, I'm not sure, but as I recall, the
police officer came out of the jailhouse and they stood up and
looked, but they didn't say anything for a few minutes, and
then they just say: you are under arrest. They didn't ask
us for a permit. .
Q. Well, they watched you then for a while?
A. Yes.
Q. For a period of time before they did anything?
A. Yes.
Q. And after this period of time, they did take
some action?
A. Beg your pardon.
Q. After this period of time that they observed
you, they did take some action after that, did they not?
A. Yes, they took our signs and told us that we
were under arrest.
Q. Can you tell us whether or not they asked you
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928 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
to move on — to disperse and move on?
A. I said I didn't remember them telling us that.
Q. Are you telling us that they didn't or that
you just don't remember?
A. I don't believe they told us.
Q. All right. Did they ask you whether or not
you had a permit to parade?
A. The only thing I remember that the police
officer said was: you are under arrest.
Q. Well, did you have a permit to parade on this
occasion?
A. No.
Q. Did anybody in the group have a permit to
parade?
A. I can only speak for myself.
Q. Insofar as you knew, did anyone in the group
have a permit to parade?
A. No.
Q. Is that true on each of these other three
occasions?
A. I said I couldn't speak for anyone else.
Q. And again I say, insofar as you know person
ally?
A. As far as I know personally, no.
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929 .
(Frankie Adams - Cross)
MR. TRAVIS:
That's all.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MORRIS:
Q. On May 31st, you said you had been at a Youth
Council Meeting. Were there people at that meeting other
than members of the Youth Council?
A. Yes.
Q. And similarly on June first, you said you had
been in a small meeting of the Jackson Movement?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what organizations belong to the
Jackson Movement?
A. What organizations belong to the Jackson Move
ment?
Q. Uh huh, or what persons?
A. What —
Q. Are there other organizations other than the
NAACP in the Jackson Movement?
A. Yes, there are SNCC and CORE.
Q. Now, are there individuals in the Jackson
Movement?
A. Individuals?
Q. Is there a ministerial association in it —
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930 .
(Frankie Adams - Redirect)
ministers?
A. Yes, there are.
Q. Now, how old were you last summer?
A. Last summer — seventeen.
Q. Was your case handled by a juvenile authority?
A. May 31st, yes.
Q. Pardon?
A. May 31st.
Q. May 31st. So your mother came and picked you
up?
A. Yes .
Q. And it wasn't necessary for you to raise bail?
A. No.
Q. As a matter of fact, they didn't accept bail
for juveniles, did they?
A. No.
Q. Now, on Livingston Street which is where you
were on May 31st, is there any sidewalk out there in that
area?
A. On Livingston Street?
Q. That's right.
A. On the school campus, there are, but —
Q. After you leave the school?
A. After you leave the school campus, there are
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931 .
none.
(Frankie Adams - Redirect)
Q. And when you were walking in that area off
the school campus, were you walking on a pathway?
A. Yes, there is a pathway.
Q. When was your birthday — your eighteenth
birthday?
A. June.
Q. June what?
A. First.
Q. June first?
A. Yes.
THE COURT:
June first of what year?
THE WITNESS:
Nineteen-forty-six.
THE COURT:
Nineteen when?
THE WITNESS:
Forty-six.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. On June the 13th on Rose Street, do you re
call that?
A. Do I recall that?
Q. Being on Rose Street on June the 13th, — you
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932 .
(Frankie Adams - Redirect)
were just talking about it?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. I think you said you had come from the church,
the Pearl Street Baptist Church on Rose?
A. Yes.
Q. Or the Pearl Street Methodist Church?
A. The Pearl Street Methodist.
Q. Did the policemen ask you to move onto the
sidewalk or did they just ask you to move on?
A. The policemen asked us to disperse.
Q. He didn't say anything about moving from the
side of the street to the sidewalk?
A. No.
Q. He indicated you had to go out together,
did he not?
A. Beg your pardon.
Q. He indicated that you had to go out of the
area all together, did he not?
MR. TRAVIS:
Your Honor, this is her witness, and I sug
gest she’s leading.
THE COURT:
Sustain the objection.
MRS. MORRIS:
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933 .
(Frankie Adams - Redirect)
Q. Now, you were talking about people on the porches
or on the property near the street. Were these people part of
the demonstration?
A. No.
Q. Now, was your group orderly? You spoke about
this other group being noisy.
A. Our group was orderly.
THE COURT:
Let me see about these people that she was just
asking you about that were not in your group. What race did
they belong to?
THE WITNESS:
Well, I couldn't say, because I recall seeing
some whites — I mean, it was a mixed group.
THE COURT:
Mixed people. All right, go ahead.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Do you know of any other public facility in the
city of Jackson, other than at the airport, that you can use
as you want to, on an unsegregated basis?
MR. WATKINS:
We object to that, if it please the Court. It's
calling for a conclusion from this witness as to whether she
can or can't use certain facilities in the city of Jackson.
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934 .
(Frankie Adams - Redirect)
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I think she's competent to make a
conclusion. She lives here in Jackson, and I'll take them one
by one, but now the record indicates that the airport is repre
sented as Jackson's unsegregated facility.
THE COURT:
Well, that's her testimony. If she has any per-
sonal knowledge, I'll let her testify of her personal knowledge
and personal experience.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Would you answer that for me?
THE COURT:
MRS. MORRIS:
For the purposes previously indicated.
THE COURT:
Pardon?
MRS. MORRIS:
For the purposes previously indicated.
Q. Do you know of any other facility in Jackson,
other than the airport, that a Negro can use on a completely
unsegregated basis, unharassed by the police?
A. No, I don't.
MRS. MORRIS:
Thank you. That's all.
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935 .
(Frankie Adams - Recross)
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TRAVIS:
Q. You are not saying that that's not true? I mean,
that there are not places that you can use on an unsegregated
basis?
A. There are places that I know of that I can't use.
Q. Let me ask you this. Let's take them — there
are about two hundred of them — let's take them one by one.
Tell me the first one that you can't use on an unsegregated
basis?
MR. BELL:
Your Honor, isn't that going a little far into
cross-examination. She has answered the question. Now, does
she have to name every segregated facility in Jackson in order
to support her answer. She doesn't know herself any other
places in the area other than the airport that's on an unsegre
gated basis.
THE COURT:
I'll let him ask what facility that she knows of
her own experience that are not operated on the same basis as
the airport.
MR. TRAVIS:
Your Honor, in her previous testimony, she said
that there were no places in Jackson that she could go.
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936 .
(Frankie Adams - Recross)
THE COURT:
She said that she didn’t know of any. That’s my
understanding of her testimony, and I’ll let you follow that.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Now, what about the park — Livingston Park
today? Have you been out there today?
A. Have I been out there today?
Q. Well, most of these occurred in June — May,
June and July?
A. No, I haven't been at Livingston Park.
Q. So you can’t say that you can’t use that park
in any way that you see fit, as every other citizen in the
city of Jackson, can you?
A . Beg your pardon.
Q. Can you tell the Court whether or not you can
use the facilities at Livingston Park Zoo, a municipal facil
ity, in any manner that you see fit, if proper?
A. No, we can’t use it.
Q. You can’t use it?
A. No.
Q. How do you know you can’t use it?
A. Well, some students has tried the park and they
couldn't use it.
Q. I’m speaking of last summer. What do you know
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(Frankie Adams - Recross)
personally about it?
937 .
A. Well, about Livingston Park?
Q. Right.
A. Well, personally I don’t know anything about it.
Q. You don’t know anything about it. What facili-
ties have you tried to use in the city of Jackson and been
denied the right to use?
A. What facilities have I tried —
Q. What facilities in the city of Jackson have you
tried to use and been denied the use of them? You have told
us that you used the airport as you saw fit, and I’m asking
you now what facilities in the city of Jackson have you tried
to use and been denied the use of — personally, you?
A. Well, I personally haven’t tried any, but why
should I try — I mean, if I had the chance to try, maybe I
would have, but why should I when I know what’s going to happi
when I do.
Q. Now, the question was, what facilities have you
tried to use in the city of Jackson and been denied the right
to use them — and you said "none”, is that right?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And I take it you have not tried to use any?
A. Well, can I explain myself, please?
Q. I'm asking you —
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938 .
MRS. MORRIS:
(Frankie Adams - Recross)
I think she has the right to explain, counsel.
MR. TRAVIS:
She does.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. I'm asking you this. You say that you have not
tried to use any of them, and haven't been denied the right
to use any of them, is that right?
A. That's what I said, but may I explain?
Q. You certainly may.
THE COURT:
Go ahead.
THE WITNESS:
Well, the Jackson ministers have went and —
MR. TRAVIS:
Now, just a minute. I object to anything that
anybody else has done, Your Honor, and move that it be strick
en .
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, we have already been through this
with reference to whether one can rely on complaints of dis
crimination. We are not in a hearsay area. We are not trying
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939 .
(Frankie Adams - Recross)
to prove the truth of it. We are just trying to prove, how
ever, that it’s common knowledge of the occurrences here in
Jackson.
THE COURT:
Well, I think she has told us about what she
knows. I think she has answered the question.
MR. TRAVIS:
That's all, Your Honor.
THE COURT :
(Witness excused)
All right, who will you have?
MRS . MORRIS :
Your honor, we will call Will Palmer.
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940 .
WILL PALMER
having first been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MORRIS:
Q. What is your name?
A. Will Palmer.
Q. Do you live in Jackson?
A. Yes, mam.
Q. How long have you lived here?
A. Seventeen years.
Q. How old are you, sir?
A. Eighteen.
Q. Where were you born?
A. Rankin County.
Q. During the summer of 1963, on June 14th, where were
you?
A. June 14th I was arrested on the corner of Capitol
and Roach Street.
Q. What were you doing?
A. I was walking down Capitol Street, and an officer
stopped me. I had on a NAACP T-shirt, and an officer stopped
me and just arrested me, me by myself, he said I was demon
strating .
Q. You were by yourself?
A. Yes, mam
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941
(Palmer - Direct)
Q. And you were arrested by a policeman?
A. Yes, mam.
Q. You had on a shirt with NAACP on it?
A. Yes, mam.
Q. Did you have any flags or placards?
A. No, mam, I didn’t have no flags.
Q. And what were you arrested for and charged with?
A. The officer said I was parading without a permit.
Q. Parading without a permit?
A. Yes, mam.
Q. Now on May 31st, you were in Brinkley High School?
A. Yes, mam.
Q. And were you a part of the procession leaving the
high school grounds?
A. Yes, mam.
Q. How were you proceeding?
A. We left in two’s, came down the school grounds we
were singing. When we got off the school grounds on the
street, we didn’t sing any more. We just walked all the way
down to Livingston Road, about five blocks to Ridgeway. We
wasn’t singing or nothing, and the officer backed up and
begged, and we were walking in two’s - we wasn’t on the
street - we were off the street ----
BY THE COURT:
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942 .
(Palmer - Direct)
Q. What were the officers begging you about?
A. I didn’t say he begged us. I said he backed the car.
Q. Oh, backed the car, is that what you said?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I s e e .
A. W"e were walking down the street and he backed the
car.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. The car was following the group of students who
were proceeding down the street?
A. Yes, mam.
Q. Was there more than one police car out there?
A. There were two policeman’s cars.
Q. And did it follow that group?
A. They followed the group until we got down to Ridgeway.
We got down there and they had called some more officers. We
got down there it was a big crowd of officers, T don’t know
how many it was.
Q. You don’t know how many it was but you say it was a
large group?
A. Yes, mam.
Q. Do you know what you were charged with on that
occasion?
A. Parading without a permit.
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943 .
(Palmer - Direct)
BY THE COURT:
Q. That was on Livingston Road?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the date of that?
A. May 31st.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Were you arrested after May 31st?
A. I was arrested on June 12th.
Q. At that time were you in the group on Lynch Street?
A. Yes, mam.
Q. And that was the day after the murder. Now, were
you taken to the jail after you were arrested on June 14th?
A. We were taken to the fairgrounds. On June 14th we
were taken to the fairgrounds.
Q. To the fairgrounds?
A. Yes, mam.
Q. This was the time you were by yourself?
A. Yes, mam.
Q. How long were you out there?
A. I stayed down at the fairgrounds two days.
Q. Two days?
A. Yes, mam.
Q. Now after the 31st where were you taken?
A. After the 31st - the 31st was on a Friday. We were
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944 .
(Palmer - Direct)
taken down to the fairgrounds. They sprayed us that Saturday
morning, they sprayed us with mosquito stuff. They closed the
doors.
Q. They sprayed the area for mosquitoes?
A. They sprayed right there in the building where we
were. They closed the doors. The next morning the man came
in there and asked us if we had any complaints, E asked him
why did we get sprayed, and he told me to come on out, and he
took me to the city jail.
Q. And how long were you in the city jail?
A. r stayed in the city jail five days.
Q. Now were you arrested after June 12th?
A. L was arrested June 14th.
Q. Now you said you were in the group on Lynch Street
on June the 12th.
A. June 12th E was with the group on Lynch Street.
Q. Were you arrested after that.
A. E was arrested June 12th.
Q. Where were you taken?
A. To the fairgrounds.
BY THE COURT:
Q. Were you arrested on June 12th and June 14th?
A. Yes, sir, Ewas.
MRS. MORRES:
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945 .
(Palmer - Direct)
Q. Where were you taken on June 12th?
A. I was taken down to the fairgrounds.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. 1 stayed there two days.
Q. Were you released from the fairgrounds or from the
jail?
A. r was released from the fairgrounds.
Q. On the day you were arrested by yourself, you say
you were on Capitol Street, where had you come from, where
had you been before then?
A. r had been out to Pearl Street church.
Q. And you had gone down Capitol Street alone?
A. Yes, mam.
Q. No other one?
A. No one except myself.
Q. Where had you walked?
A. r walked up on the left hand side of Capitol and on
the right hand side of Capitol and T got down to Capitol and
Roach and an officer arrested me.
Q. What distance had you covered while you were on
Capitol Street?
A. What distance? rt was, T would say about three
blocks.
Q. Were you causing any disturbance or making any noise?
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(Palmer - Direct)
A. I wasn’t saying nothing to no one.
Q. Were you quiet all during this period?
A. Yes, mam.
Q. Before you were picked up?
A. Yes, mam.
BY THE COURT:
Q. You say you went up one side of Capitol--
A. r went up the left side of Capitol and came down the
right side of Capitol.
Q. Let’s see. I want to get your directions. Let’s talk
about the north side and the south side of Capitol Street.
Which one of them did you go up?
A. I went up on the north there and came down on the
south side.
M R S . M O R R r S :
Q. You are a Negro, are you not, Mr. Palmer?
A. That * s right.
M R S . M O R R I S :
I have no more questions.
C R O S S E X A M I N A T I O N
B Y M R . N I C H O L S :
Q. I want to ask you about your arrest on May 31, 1963,
on Livingston Road. You were coming from where?
_______________________________ 946 .
A. Brinkley High School
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947 .
(Palmer - Cross)
Q. Brinkley High School?
A. That’s right.
Q. And approximately how many people were walking along
with you?
A. About eighty or ninety people.
Q. Eighty or ninety people?
A. That’s right.
Q. And about that many were arrested out there were
they not?
A. T ru e .
Q. Ts it not true that some people in the procession that
you were in were carrying placards that had writing on them?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. Sit here and think a minute, didn’t some of the people
in the parade have placards that said ’’End Brutality in Jackson
NAACP” - don’t you know that of your own knowledge?
A. I don’t remember seeing that.
Q. You didn’t see anybody with a placard?
A. No, I don’t remember seeing any.
Q. Did you see anybody carrying small American flags?
A. No, didn’t nobody have flags.
Q. No flags in the parade?
A. No flags in that parade.
Q. About what time of day did this occur?
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948
(Palmer - Cross
A. It was between 2: 30 or maybe 3:00 o’clock
the hour of 2:30 and 3:30.
Q. What?
A. Between the hour of 2:30 and 3:30.
Q. Do you know who arres ted you?
A. Captain Ray.
Q. Captain J . L. Ray?
A. Yes, sir, he’s a police officer.
BY THE COURT:
Q. Is this on May 31st?
A. May 31st.
MR. NrC HOLS :
Q. Was this along about Ridgeway Street?
A. rt was on the corner of Ridgeway and Livingston Road.
Q. Do you know Lieutenant Wilson, a police officer?
A. No, r don’t know him.
Q. As regards your arrest on the 12th day of June on
Lynch Street?
A. That’s right.
Q. Approximately how many people were with you?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. Would approximately 146 be the approximate number of
the group?
A. It was a crowd, but I don’t remember how many there
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949
(Palmer - Cross)
were.
Q. Had you been to Masonic Temple?
A. Yes, 1 had.
Q. Did you march out of Masonic Temple into Lynch
Street?
A. That *s co rrect.
Q. And you got into the street, rather than on the side-
walk? His answer was "Yes1*, T believe, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. How far did you march until you got to the point
where you were arrested?
A. We got down to, T believe it was Rose Street.
Q. Rose Street?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see any officer use a hand microphone?
A. Hand microphone - No, T don’t remember.
Q. Did you hear any officer talk to you that day?
A. L heard them when they said, we were under arrest,
disperse or we were under arrest.
Q. Did he say "disperse, you are under arrest"?
A. He say "or we were under arrest".
Q. Did you hear him ask anybody if they had a permit to
parade?
A. No, r donTt remember hearing him say that
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950 .
(Palmer - Cross)
Q. Did you have a permit to parade?
A. No, I didn’t have a permit.
Q. Do you know of anyone else in your group that had a
pe rmit?
want
male
same
did
A. No, r don’t.
Q. With regard to your arrest on June 14th, 1963, r
you to tell me whether or not you know a boy, man, colored
citizen, by the name of Walter Simmons?
A. Who.
Q. Walter Simmons?
A. No, r do not.
Q. Do you know Marvin Livingston?
A. Marvin Livingston, no, T don’t know him.
Q. Do you know Henry Mason?
A. No.
Q. Do you know Kenneth Rollins?
A. No.
Q. I will ask you this, was anyone else arrested at the
time you were on Capitol and Roach?
A. L was arrested by myself on Capitol and Roach streets.
Q. Did you stay on the corner of Capitol and Roach or
they take you down to the police department?
A. Did r stay there?
Q. Yes, what happened to you after you were arrested?
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951 .
(Palmer - Cross)
A. r stopped for the red light, the light went red, and
the police stopped me right there on that corner, he asked me
did I have - he was going to break up all this demonstration,
and he called and told me r was under arrest.
Q. And how long did he keep you there?
A. He kept me until the paddy wagon came.
Q. Were you the only one in the paddy wagon?
A. Yes.
Q. You rode in the paddy wagon by yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that correct?
A. That * s right.
Q. Now how were you dressed that day?
A. 1 had on a NAACP T-shirt and a pair of grey khaki
pants.
Q. Trm sorry, I didnrt hear you.
A. I had on a NAACP T-shirt and a pair of grey khaki
pants.
Q. Grey Khaki pants and a NAACP T-shirt?
A. ThatT s right.
Q. You had nothing in your hands while you were walking?
A. I had nothing in my hands.
MR. NICHOLS:
That *s all.
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BETTE ANNE POOLE
952 .
having first been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DrRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
Q. Will you state your name please?
A. My name is Bette Anne Poole.
Q. Will you spell it for the court reporter?
A. B-e-t-t-e A-n-n-e P-o~o~l~e.
Q. And your residence?
A. Tougaloo College, Galloway Hall, Tougaloo, Missis
sippi .
Q. Are you a student there?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your classification?
A. Senior.
Q. Are you - what is your race?
A. Pardon?
Q. What is your race?
A. Negro - black.
Q. Have you been arrested in Ja
participating in racial demonstrations?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. When did that occur?
A. Well, the first time I was arrested was, I think, on
December 14th, 1962.
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953 .
(Poole - Direct)
Q. Are you sure about that date?
A. Not too sure.
Q. Was it on or about that date?
A. rt was around December 14th.
Q. All right. What happened on that occasion?
A. We went down to picket on Capitol Street and after
we got out of the car —
Q. Excuse me. Who was with you at the time, how many
people?
A. Six of us - altogether there was six.
Q. Where did you go?
A. We went to picket in front of WoolworthTs and part of
Shainberg * s.
Q. Which street is that?
A. Capitol Street.
Q. Did you have signs?
A. Yes.
Q. What did your signs read?
A. Well, in effect they read "Boycott Capitol Street
because of discriminatory practices."
Q. What discriminatory practice are you referring to?
A. Well, from my own personal experience, whenever T
have gone into a store in Jackson I was given no courtesy at
all and T wasn’t served on "First Come, First Served" basis.
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954 .
(Poole - Direct)
I found that negroes couldn’t be hired in these stores as sales
clerks. The only jobs they got were manual jobs such as
sweeping up the floors and cleaning up the place.
Q. And you indicated your personal experience under this
disc rimination?
A. Wellj as far as courtesy titles were concerned and as
far as segregated seating and eating facilities, and the ’’First
come, First served” basis.
Q. Will you tell me the manner in which you and the
persons with you conducted this protest?
A. Yes. We got out of the car and we put our picket
signs on. We walked almost next to the curb on the left side
of the parking meters. We were close to them. We weren’t
touching them though. We walked down about, maybe, ten feet
and then we turned around about-face and walked half way back
and then Captain Ray and about twenty or thirty policemen
arrested us.
Q. Well about what time of the day was this?
A. It was about 9:30. It was very cold. I think the
temperature was about 26 degrees, and there weren’t too many
people on the streets because it was so early in the morning.
The only people T saw were the managers and the sales clerks
who had come out of the stores to watch and maybe two or three
custome rs.
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(Poole - Direct)
Q. If any one had tried to pass would they have had any
difficulty getting by?
A. I don’t think so. Maybe they would have had
difficulty getting by the policemen since there were so many
of them and there were only six of us. That’s the only reason
I can see why nobody could get by.
Q. You said you came by car, where did your car come
f rom?
_________________________ 9 5 5 .
A. Tougaloo College.
Q. Were the other students with you all from Tougaloo
College?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you indicate what their race was?
A. All the students were Negroes and there was a
faculty member and his wife and they were both Caucasians.
Q. In the group that was picketing?
A. Yes,
Q. How had you and the group decided and why had you
decided to make this type protest?
A. The reason we wanted to make this protest was to
get the negroes to boycott Capitol Street because of the
segregation policies that we were confronted with everytime
we went down to shop, and that was the only reason, and we
felt it was only right, you know
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956 .
(Poole - Direct)
Q. Why did you use this method?
A. It was the only way in which we could voice our
opinion because as negroes we don’t have access to the mass
media such as television and newspapers, and we have one
Negro station but r don’t think they allow us to give such
type announcements on it, and the white stations won’t do it
for us either; they won’t announce it.
Q. Now after you got out of the car and got your sign
adjusted and begin to picket approximately how much time passed
before you first saw the policeman?
A. Well, it was between one minute and two minutes
because we only - H’m sure we didn’t picket over a minute and
a half, because time the policeman saw us they came right over
and arrested us, and r think they had been notified before
hand about this demonstration and they were there prepared.
Q. Tell us again how the police approached you, what
they said, and what happened up until the time of your arrest.
A. Well, I was on the end of the picket line and my
back was turned, you know, toward the policemen, and finally
r heard all this noise, the policemen coming over and talking
to the rest of the picketers. r turned around, and the first
person I saw was Captain Ray taking off their signs and
telling them they were under arrest. T don’t remember him
saying ’’move on” first, or anything. He just told me that
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957 .
(Poole - Direct)
I was under arrest.
Q. Did he indicate to you why or on what charge he was
arresting you?
A. Well, I don't remember him telling me this, but
after 1 got down to the police station I found out that we
were arrested for parading without a permit, and obstructing
the sidewalk.
Q. Were you released subsequently?
A. Yes, we were released three or four (
t remember now just how long it was. I
five days, I'm not sure .
Q. If you know was a bond posted on you
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the amount?
A. Five hundred dollars on each charge.
Q. Were you subsequently tried?
A. No.
Q. D o you know whether you were subs equ
City Court?
A. Oh, I don't know the date, but I do remember we
had a trial. We were convicted and the case was put on
appeal.
Q. When you were convicted what was your fine?
A. I think it was a thousand dollars.
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958 .
MR. NICHOLS:
(Poole - Direct)
Defendant objects to what she thinks.
MR. BELL:
Q. Tell us if you know.
BY THE COURT;
Tell us what you know.
THE WITNESS:
I think it was a thousand dollars.
MR. NICHOLS:
We object to what she thinks, and move it be stricken.
BY THE COURT:
I sustain the objection.
MR. BELL:
Q. If you know, say what it was.
A. A. thousand dollars.
BY THE COURT:
Q. Did he give them any time to serve?
A. Six months.
Q. And that*s presently on appeal?
A. Yes, sir.
BY THE COURT:
Any further questions?
BY THE WITNESS:
Did you ask me about all my arrests?
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959 .
MR. BELL:
(Poole - Direct)
I think, Your Honor, at this point, based on your
earlier rulings in connection with church arrests, I would
assume that you would make the same ruling to an objection
concerning testimony as to other arrests, as to the arrest
of this witness of a similar nature, is that correct?
BY THE COURT:
In other words, you are telling me that you are now
making the same proffer for her of some church incident.
MR. BELL:
That*s correct, if you are not willing at this
time to make a ruling different from that you made earlier.
BY THE COURT:
That*s right. T will accept that as a proffer
and make the same ruling.
MR. BELL:
All right. In that case, just let the record
show that this witness, if permitted to testify as to other
arrests for racial protests, would testify that on two
occasions she has been arrested while attempting to
visit the Capitol Street Methodist Church, which church
is known as a white church in Jackson, Mississippi, and the
witness would further indicate that she attempted to attend
these churches, church services, in order to get to know
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960 .
(Poole - Cross)
white persons and to give them a chance to know Negroes
on equal basis.
BY MR. TRAVIS:
We object to that.
BY THE COURT:
I will sustain the objection.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Where are you from, your home, please?
A. Chicago.
Q. Chicago, and how long have you been away from
Chicago ?
A. Since September.
Q. Of what year?
A. This year.
Q. I believe you said you were arrested in December
of 1962?
A. Yes, but I have gone home since then.
Q. I see. You are a resident in Chicago?
A. Right.
Q. And you go to school at Tougaloo?
A. Tougaloo, yes.
Q. You say there were six of you this December 16th,
1962? ThatTs the best you could recall as to the date, I
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961 .
A. I said 14.
Q. 14 of you?
(Poole - Cross)
A.
Q.
arrested
A.
Q.
r said the 14th of December.
December 14th, 1962, and how many of you were
on that occasion?
Six.
Now how were you walking, in circles on the side
walk?
A. No, we were not walking in circles. We were
walking in a straight orderly line.
Q. How did you make a turn?
A. We turned about face. We turned around. We
stopped in our tracks and turned.
Q. What did that do to people behind you when you
stopped and turned around and started walking the other
way?
A. Nobody was behind us. Nobody was on the street.
Q. What placard did you have, if any, on that
occasion?
A. Boycott Capitol Street - DonTt shop where you
can’t work, or something to that effect.
Q. You had a sign that read "Boycott Capitol Street"?
A. Yes
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962 •
(Poole - Cross)
Q. NAACP?
A. r don’t know if that was on there or not. It
probably was.
Q. It probably was, - and what was the other sign
you had?
A. r don’t know what was on the rest of the signs.
Q. Since you say that probably NAACP was on that sign
that said "Boycott Capitol Street" r take it that it was the
NAACP that organized this group and got you together?
A. No.
Q. Where had you gotten together?
A. We got together on campus.
Q. At Tougaloo?
A. Yes.
Q. And I believe you said a member of the faculty
got you together, and his wife?
A. No, I didn’t say that.
Q. Well they were with you?
A. They picketed with us.
Q. Where had you gotten together, before you came to
Capitol Street, what was your point of origin? Where did you
come from?
A. Some of my friends and T had started talking about
the segregation practices on Capitol Street and we did not
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963 .
(Poole - Cross)
like it, and so we started voicing our opinion among the
other students and we asked if maybe they would like to picket
a store on Capitol Street, and we talked to this particular
faculty member and he said that he would go on it too, and
we were very happy that he would, he and his wife both.
BY THE COURT:
Q. Were you picketing these two stores or was there a
picketing of all of Capitol Street?
A. Well we wanted to picket all of Capitol Street but
we couldn’t because we didn’t have enough people so we got
out of the car in front of Woolworth’s because I think at that
time they had two lunch counters, one for whites and one for
negroes and that was a symbol of segregation and we did not
like it, so we got out there and started picketing.
BY MR. TRAVES:
Q. Now that was some private businesses on Capitol
Street that you were picketing?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you
white one?
A. I didn’t say
Q. What was his
BY MR. BELL:
Objection, Your Honor That is irrelevant and we
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964
(Poole - Cross)
would like to object.
BY THE COURT:
r will overrule that objection.
BY MR. TRAVIS:
Q. What was his name?
A. His name was Mr. John R. Salters.
Q. I take it that this was his wife and not some other
faculty member’s wife - this was his wife?
A. Right.
Q. Do you know where he is now?
A. I have no idea where he is .
Q. Is he presently on the faculty of your college?
A. I don’t think so.
Q. What’s he doing now, where is he, if you know?
A. I don’t know.
Q. N ow this boycott of Capitol Street , who organized
that? Who got that together?
A. Well, like I said, some of my friends and I got to
gether and we talked about it, and we wanted to find some way
in which we could do something about it. This was the only
effective way we could see to do it because we don’t have
access to the news media here to tell the negroes to stay
off, so the only way we could do it was go down and do the
picketing
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(Poole - Cross)
Q. Was that the reason you got the leaflets out, the
pamphlets ?
A. After we started talking about it with our friends
we decided that we could make up some leaflets of our own and
we did.
_____________________________________________________________________________ 965.
Q. And that was to boycott these places on Capitol
Street?
A. Yes.
Q. Did that go on over into T63?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. I hand you Exhibit D-3 for Identification
witness Evers and ask you to examine it and tell me
or not this is the type of leaflet or hand bill you
about?
to the
whether
are talking
A. Yes.
BY THE COURT:
You are nodding. What does that mean?
BY THE WITNESS:
I said “Yes11.
BY MR. TRAVIS:
Q. The same is true of Exhibit D-4 for Identification to
the witness Evers, is it not? That *s a photostatic copy of
one of these.
A. Yes
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966 .
(Poole - Cross)
Q. The same would be true of Exhibit D-5 for identifica
tion to the witness Evers, would it not?
A. Yes.
Q. Now this boycott was advertised widely by your group,
was it not?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was your group?
A. Well, after my friends and I started talking about it
on campus to the other students we decided to ask some organiza
tion or somebody who could help us, you know, so we decided to
organize a NAACP Youth Chapter on our campus and we did, and
we asked the NAACP to help us in any way that they could.
Q. So then the NAACP then took over and assisted you in
your boycott of these down town or Capitol Street and the
private businesses on Capitol Street, is that correct?
A. No, that*s not true. They didnTt take over. They
helped us. They assisted us. We did the planning because we
did have a NAACP chapter.
Q. And you put the boycott into effect?
A. Yes.
Q. So what you are telling us is then that the boycott
originated in Tougaloo?
A. Well, yes.
Q. Now, are you familiar with Capitol Street?
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967 .
(Poole - Cross)
A. I think I am - Yes, r am.
Q. How long a street is Capitol Street?
A. It's a long street.
Q. Let me say from the Old Capitol to the Illinois
Central railroad underpass.
A. I don*t know where the Old Capitol is located.
Q. It»s a dead end - the east end of the street.
A. I will say from five to six blocks. I am not - I
can - I know the area between Farish Street and I am not
familiar with the names of the streets. I am familiar with
about two or three blocks where the department stores are
located.
Q. You are boycotting all of it but you are not familiar
with it - is that what you are telling us?
A. r donTt know the names of the streets but I know
some of the business establishments on the street that T have
gone in and bought things before the boycott.
Q. Well now you said that you had personal knowledge
of employment and other practices ---
A. Yes.
Q. -- at these down town stores?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell me of any instance of personal knowledge that
you have of employment practices of any private business on
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968 .
(Poole - Cross)
Capitol Street.
A. L have talked to quite a few negro high school
graduates ---
Q. Just a minute. I’m not talking about anybody you
talked to. r*m speaking of any conversations you have personal
ly had or heard with any operator or personnel people of any
private business on Capitol Street.
A. L have talked to people who wanted to apply for these
jobs.
Q. Have you ever personally applied yourself?
A. No, r haven* t.
Q. Were you ever present when anyone personally applied
for a job on Capitol Street?
A. No, r have never been present.
Q. So you have no personal knowledge of employment
practices on Capitol Street?
A. From talking to these people t do.
Q. That*s from talking to somebody else and they talked
to somebody else - r*m asking you.
A. No, r don’t think they talked to anybody else.
Q. r*m asking you if you have any personal knowledge --
A. Personal contact with the manager of personnel, no.
Q. No, is that correct?
Now, Capitol Street is quite a long street, is it not?
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969 .
(Poole - Cross)
A. That’s true.
Q. And there are many businesses on Capitol Street?
A. Yes.
Q. All types of businesses?
A. All types.
Q. And they are all private businesses are they not?
the
as
A. Yes.
Q. There are no businesses on Capitol Street operated by
City of Jackson?
A. Not that r know of.
Q. And you are boycotting all of these private businesses
r understand it, is that correct?
A. Yes, because of their segregation policies.
Q. And if that puts them out of business that’s all
right too?
A. It’s not - to me personally it’s not all right because
r feel that they should hire people who are customers in their
stores and patronize them. If they don’t hire people who
patronize them Z advocate that these people not give them
their money.
Q. In other words, you don’t put any basis on a man
being able to operate his business as he sees fit?
A. To some extent X do.
Q. To the extent that he does what you want him to do?
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970 .
(Poole - Cross)
A. Not that L want him to do but that he should do,
what I think he should do.
Q. What you think he should do - so you do think he
should operate the way you think he should operate?
A. Not really.
Q. What do you think?
A. Not so far as - well, only so far as hiring is
concerned but not other management duties, no.
Q- If you can tell him who to hire and fire why can*t
you tell him any other -—
A. Not that I want him to hire any particular person,
but I donft think that he should discriminate against a person
who wants to be employed just because of race. If this person
shops at his store he should at least be appreciative enough
to hire a couple of people, yes.
Q. That*s the only qualification you place on them,
that if they do business there he ought to hire them?
A. Not everybody, XTm sure he couldnTt hire everybody
that shopped in the store, but this isn*t the only reason.
There are other segregation problems they have here in Jackson
besides hiring.
Q. You can finish your answer.
A. There are other reasons besides the hiring part.
You have segregated seating facilities, restroom facilities,
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971 •
(Poole - Cross)
eating facilities, no courtesy titles whatsoever, and I have
been in the stores at the counters waiting to pay for the goods
I had just gotten and a white person walks up and the sales
clerk stops waiting on me and waits on the white person, and
I had to stand there, and I don’t feel too good about it at
all.
Q. Vfhat store was that and what date was it?
A. T don’t know the date. I can’t remember the store,
but it happened a lot of times to me.
Q. If you don’t remember the date and don’t remember the
store —
A. It was during 19 61.
Q. During 1961?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the only experience you have had?
A. I know that I can’t eat at these lunch counters.
Q. Have you ever tried to?
A. No, I haven’t because I knew what would happen, and
I saw what would happen.
Q. You have never---
A. I went in the bus station, the Greyhound bus station,
to buy a ticket. I waited at that counter for at least thirty
minutes. A. friend of mine came in from Tougaloo and he waited
too with me and after they finally decided to wait on us after
97 2 .
(Poole - Cross)
he had gotten through eating a candy bar and watching a program
on TV, we went and sat down. We sat there for about two
minutes and a white cab driver got out of his cab, came in
and beat up the fellow. So we called the police. The police
station isn't too far from the Greyhound bus station, and it
took the police thirty minutes to get there. After they got
there they looked inside the door and they said ,lWe don't
see him" and by this time the man could be anywhere in town.
And r know from that experience that if I had went and sit at
a lunch counter I probably would have been done like a friend
of mine was done, 1 could have been killed.
Q. Can you tell me what date this was?
A. No, I can't, but I can check with the police station
and find out.
Q. You are sure of that?
A. Yes, I'm positive.
Q. Do you know who the man was?
A. I know him when I see him and I have seen him several
times because 1 have gone back in there.
Q. Well now, the bus station is not on Capitol Street.
A. The bus station is not on Capitol Street but it's
still in Jackson.
Q. My question was again, when on Capitol Street ——
A. Well 1 told you. I have never sat at a lunch counter
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973 .
(Poole - Cross)
on Capitol Street, ----
Q. All right, -—
A. -----because of the previous experience I had in
the bus station.
Q. But that*s not Capitol Street.
A. It's not Capitol Street but it?s still in the City of
J ackson.
Q. Nobody gave you, - no representative of the City of
Jackson approached you at the bus station during this time,
did they?
A. Not that L know of, only the policeman who came in
later, that*s the only person.
Q. They investigated your complaint of this assault.
A. They didn*t do anything but look in. They saw this
fellow after he was beaten up and they told him to come down to
the police station and sign an affidavit, and thatTs all that
happened, - nothing else.
Q. Did he go to the police department and sign an
affidavit?
A.
Q.
without a
A.
Q.
Yes, he did - yes.
On May 31st, 1963, were you arrested for parading
pe rmit?
Yes, I was.
Where were you on this occasion?
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974 .
(Poole - Cross)
A. t was on Farish Street.
Q. And how many others were arre ssted with you, if you
know?
A. I don ’t know.
Q. Could you tell me about how many?
A. Well, there were about thirty five or f o rty people.
rt was about thirty people in the paddy wagon with me. We were
paeked in there just like sardines •
Q. I’m not speaking of the paddy wagon after you were
arrested. r*m trying to -—
A. Well, these were the only people T saw arres ted and
they were a r re sted with me •
Q. Where did you come from?
A. From Farish Street Baptist Church.
Q. From Farish Street Baptist Church?
A. Right.
Q. And would you be surprised if r told you that there
were 322 persons arrested with you on this occasion?
A. No, I wouldn’t be surprised.
Q. That’s about right, isn’t it?
A. T’m sure that it is.
Q. Now, that’s a pretty large number of people, isn’t it?
A. This is true.
Q. You say you came from the Farish Street A.M.E. Church?
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975 .
(Poole - Cross)
down to
meeting
A. I said Baptist.
Q. Baptist Church, - had you been to a meeting there?
A. Yes, I had.
Q. Who was sponsoring that meeting?
A. I don*t know.
Q. Well what were you doing at the meeting?
A. We were having the meeting - we were going to go
the Mayor* s office, and protest.
Q. You were going to the Mayor* s --
A. (interrupting) I can*t remember who chaired the
, because I*ve been to so many of them.
Q. Excuse me, I didnft understand you,
A. I can’t remember who chaired the meeting.
Q. All right. Well what organization was in charge of
the meeting?
A. r*m not sure because there were three organizations
working in Jackson at that time. Usually they did it to
gether. I don*t know if one particular organization was over
the meeting or not.
Q. If there were several organizations, what several
organizations would that be that were sponsoring this meeting?
A. NAACP, CORE AND SNCC.
BY THE COURT:
What was that last term? I never have understood
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976 .
(Poole - Cross)
that. Slick, you say?
THE WITNESS:
SNCC.
BY THE COURT:
Q. SNICK?
A. SNCC - it’s pronounced like S-N-I-C-K.
BY MR. TRAVIS:
Q. What does it stand for?
A. Student Non-Violence Coordinating Committee,
Q. Did you discuss a demonstration or parade prior to
going into the street on this occasion?
A. Yes.
Q. Were representatives from NAACP, SNCC And CORE present
at this meeting?
A. There were members there.
Q. Were there representatives, officers of these organi
zations present?
A. I can't remember. I don*t know.
Q. But normally these groups were the ones in charge of
all of these mass meetings, were they not?
A. Yes.
Q. ThatTs true?
A. Yes.
Q. So somebody did chair the meeting, although you donTt
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977 .
(Poole - Cross)
know who it was?
A. Yes, somebody did chair the meeting.
Q. Were you asked to go into the streets and demonstrate
on this occasion?
A. Well, people were urged to go.
Q. The chair, whoever did chair it, --
A. Yes.
Q. -- urged you to go into the streets and demonstrate?
A. Well, they were asked to, yes.
Q. Would you explain it for me?
A. Well, they just asked people to go down and protest
at the Mayor’s office.
Q. And you would go from this church to the Mayor’s
office ?
togeth
side,
by us
Capito
A. Right. We would walk down to the Mayor’s office
er in an orderly organized line of two people side by
on the sidewalk, and not to obstruct anybody from walking
or beside us or what have you.
Q. And which sidewalk were you on?
A. We were on the left side of the street going toward
1 on Farish.
Q. Then you had crossed the street from the Church?
A. No.
Q. You were on the same side as the church?
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978 .
(Poole - Cross)
A. Right.
Q. The church, if you went - you are speaking of looking
from Capitol back?
A. Right.
Q. Who was on the other sidewalk across the street?
A. There were people going into the stores and doing
their daily shopping, r guess.
Q. There were quite a number of people trying to use
Farish Street on this occasion, were there not?
A. The only people I could really see were policemen.
H m sure there were about a hundred policemen there and if
anybody was blocking the sidewalks it was them. Because before
the policemen appeared the line was orderly. When the police
came they said "all right, break it up", "break it up" and
they started hitting people. And where could the people go.
They had to get out of line and get off the street, and they
would have to get disorganized. They couldn’t remain side by
side anymore, because the police broke them up. If any
obstruction was done, it was done because the police made it
happen.
Q. It is true that the police formed a line across the
street, is it not?
A. They didn’t only form a line across the street. They
went into the crowd and they started hitting them
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979 .
(Poole - Cross)
and making them get off of the sidewalk and where could they
go except into the street and into stores? Where else could
they go? Nowhere else. They couldn’t disappear and vanish.
Q. Now you have given us a nice dissertation and I
appreciate it. Again I would like to ask you was there a line
of police officers across the street so that you could not go
beyond ?
A. Yes.
Q. And was there an officer there with a bull horn or
loud speaker?
A. Yes.
Q. Did this officer ask you to disperse?
A. Yes.
Q. He first asked whether or not you had a permit to
parade, didn’t he?
A. I was near the end of the line and if he said it I
didn’t hear him.
Q. Well, you are not saying he didn’t use the bull horn?
A. I saw him use it. I could see him but I could not
hear what he said.
Q. How far away were you from him?
A. X don’t know, because I was on the end of the line
and X don’t know how long the line was.
Q. Did you have a permit to parade on this occasion?
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980 .
(Poole - Cross)
A. No, I didn’t see why we should. We weren’t parading.
We were walking, two by two. We were protesting, so why should
we have a permit to parade?
Q. You took the sidewalk over, didn’t you?
A. No, two people walking together on a sidewalk doesn’t
block it.
Q. I thought you told me there were 322 of you.
A. But they were in sections. They were walking behind
each other, two by two. They weren’t all out in a mob. They
were walking in a line.
Q. Do you know of anybody else in that group that had
a permit to have a parade on that date?
A. No, I don’t.
BY MR. TRAVIS:
That’s all.
BY MR. BELL:
Could I ask another question?
BY THE COURT:
Yes.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
Q. Do you know Willie Luden?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see him on that date?
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981 .
(Poole - ReDirect)
A. r saw him.
Q. Didyou see what happened to him?
A. No.
Q. You indicated that you were toward the rear of this
lengthy line.
A. Yes.
Q. Now prior to leaving the church on that occasion,
can you tell the court something about the nature of the
meeting. Did many people speak or a few?
A. There were a few people who spoke. L don’t know -
I can’t remember who were the speakers though.
Q. Were there - was there generally order or somewhat
of confusion in the church prior to the people getting ready to
move out?
A. There was order.
Q. Was there any instructions as to the conduct of the
individuals as they proceeded down towards City Hall?
A. Yes.
Q. What instructions were they?
A. They were told to walk two by two in the line and
stay - don’t block the sidewalk. That was the main thing.
Stay in an orderly organized line and walk side by side.
Q. When you came out of the church what did the line
look like in front of you?
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982 .
(Poole - ReDirect)
A. People ahead of me were getting restless and r will
say, I can’t estimate it in feet, but from the middle of the
line back to me we were still walking side by side, but up
around the police the people were getting disorganized because
the police were telling them to move on.
Q. Were some of those people then running out into the
street?
A. Yes.
MR. BELL:
No further questions. (Witness excused).
BY THE COURT:
All right. We will take a recess until 9:00 o’clock
in the morning.
(At this time Court recessed, and reconvened at 9:00 o’clock
A.M., Wednesday morning, February 5th, 1964).
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983 .
(The trial continued at 9:00 o’clock A.M., February 5th, 1964).
MR. WATKINS:
If it please the Court, Defendant is going to object
to any testimony from John Garner. He sat in the court room
practically all afternoon Monday afternoon listening to the
testimony after the rule had been invoked.
MR. BELL:
Plaintiff’s counsel were not aware that the witness
had come into the court room. As a matter of fact, we thought
that all of our witnesses were being instructed by the Marshal
to go straight to the witness room.
BY THE COURT:
That’s what E told counsel. The marshal wouldn’t
know who your witnesses are I wouldn’t think. That’s the
reason that’s a recognized responsibility of counsel. Let’s
see what the situation is. Where is the witness?
MR. BELL:
This is the witness. He wasn’t here when the rule
was invoked.
BY THE COURT:
Q. Were you in the Court Room all Monday afternoon?
A. I was in the Court Room while one witness testified.
Q. Which witness was that?
A. I don’t remember but she was testifying about an arrest
made on the 31st of May and going to get her daughter on the
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(Garner - Direct)
1st of June when she was struck in the back of the head
984 .
Q. Did you know the rule had been invoked?
A. No, I did not.
Q. When did you start sitting in the court room, right
after the Court convened at 1:30?
A. No, sir, r didn’t get here immediately. I am not
sure exactly when it was.
Q. How long were you in the court room?
A. During the testimony from that witness.
Q. What caused you to leave then?
A. The Court adjourned.
Q. Did anybody tell you the rule was invoked?
A. No.
Q. Why didn’t you come back in Court?
A. Because I learned after court adjourned that day that
the rule was invoked.
BY THE COURT:
I will let him testify.
BY THE WITNESS:
T’m sorry, Your Honor.
BY THE COURT:
That’s the responsibility of counsel because nobody
with the Court can possibly know who your witnesses are. That’s
just an onerous burden
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985 .
(Garner - Direct)
T OHN BROMLEY GARNER
having first been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
Q. Would you state your full name please?
A. J ohn Bromley Garner.
Q. Your residence?
A. Tougaloo College, Tougaloo, Mississippi.
Q. Your job or profession?
A. Physics teacher.
Q. Where do you teach?
A. Tougaloo College.
Q. Would you indicate whether your race is negro or
white ?
A. White.
Q. Would you indicate your church affiliation, if any?
A. Methodist.
Q. Do you belong to a church in the local area?
A. Yes, Ido.
Q. Would you tell us the name of that church please?
A. Galloway Memorial Methodist Church.
Q. I ask you whether or not you have ever been prevented
from bringing to that church persons who you wish to bring there
because of the action of the defendant, the City of Jackson?
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986
(Garner - Direct)
MR. WATKINS:
Tf it please the Court, we object to this. Counsel
well knows that the Court has ruled that church instances are
not admissible in evidence in the issues of this case. I think
it is objectionable on counsel's part to again offer this type
of testimony.
BY THE COURT:
I sustain the objection.
BY MR. BELL:
Your Honor, could I be heard?
BY THE COURT:
No. r have heard you throughout.
BY MR. BELL:
r am not arguing this evidence for the same purpose,
Your Honor.
BY THE COURT:
What is your purpose?
BY MR. BELL:
r would like to call Your Hono
a provision in Wigmore on Evidence, that
be inadmissible for one purpose, if offe
purpose it is admissible. The fact that
for the first purpose does not prevent i
rTs attention to
while testimony may
red for another
it is inadmissible
t from being admissible
for the second purpose
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987 .
(Garner - Direct)
BY THE COURT:
I am familiar with that. Where does that help you?
I don’t see how that helps you at all.
BY MR. BELL:
In this instance we have a large body of testimony
which will come on a little later in the day --
BY THE COURT:
Well, the body better not get too big because I am
just not going to turn this whole term over to this case. T
tried to simplify it and tried to streamline it and tried to
find out what the issues were but L didnft get the slightest
bit of cooperation out of counsel for either side. You just
havenft helped me try this case in any permissible length of
time, so don’t talk to me about having a big body of evidence,
because I’m not going to sit here and listen to it.
BY MR. BELL:
Well, Your Honor, we have tried in every way possible
to explain what we are trying to do in this case.
BY THE COURT:
1 know what you are trying to do. You are trying to
try the lawsuit and if you tried the case like you are trying to
try it you wouldn’t need but one lawsuit. You wouldn’t need
courts any more. You are just trying to expand this too much.
Let’s just try the lawsuit that’s in your pleading and that’s
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98F .
(Garner - Direct)
all I’m going to hear.
BY MR. BELL:
You have indicated in your own action on preliminary
injunction that in order to get the relief we are asking for in
this lawsuit we have to show an extraordinary circumstance in
this community that would justify relief that would take from
the state courts and the state police their right to arrest whom
ever they wish and to prosecute whomever they wish. This type
of relief while given some time in the past certainly has not
been given unless there is a showing as said in (Reporter could
not understand) of extraordinary circumstances. We hope to show,
in a very brief time although with quite a bit of evidence that
we have carefully marshaled, that not only have all of these
arrests that we have been showing taken place of persons who
have been protesting against racial segregation, not only have
these persons been, almost to a man, convicted, but that these
arrests, these prosecutions and convictions, have not taken
place in a neutral society; that is, they have not taken place
in a society ---
BY THE COURT:
Well, this is all argument, and you are trying to
make evidence out of argument, and I don’t so regard it. So
what is the purpose? You say that evidence inadmissible for
one purpose is not admissible for another purpose. What is
your purpose that X don’t understand?
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989 .
(Garner - Direct)
BY MR. BELL:
We want to show the testimony of this witness and
other witnesses to the effect that the community atmosphere
in Jackson and in Mississippi contributes to and is a part of
a policy of requiring racial segregation by which the defen
dants are enforcing by every means; that any person who tries
to depart from this policy, whether it be a public facility or
a private facility, is arrested or otherwise harassed by the
defendants in accordance with this policy; that the protesters
can not have their views made public or bring their views to
the public in any other way but protesting, and any effort to
do so, any person who helps them in doing so, feels the policy
of arrest or harassment as conducted by the defendants, and in
this way we hope to show that not only are there illegal arrests,
not only are there illegal prosecutions, but there is here the
extraordinary circumstance of the whole community feeling that
contributes to this policy and it would justify the kind of
relief we are asking for.
BY THE COURT:
I will sustain the objection to your question. Do
you want to ask him another question?
BY MR. BELL:
All right.
Q. I ask you, Mr. Garner, whether or not you have ever
been arrested while trying to make public your views concerning
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990 .
(Garner - Direct)
racial segregation?
BY MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, r am going to object to that.
Counsel well knows the only time this man has ever been arrested
has been in connection with church activity that he tried to
ask the other question on and the Court ruled out. Now I think
counsel is bordering on contempt of this Court by asking him
the second question knowing full well it is within the ruling
of the Court in the first place.
BY MR. BELL:
Well, I don’t know that this is the only time this
man has been arrested. I think counsel’s argument certainly
shows as it showed yesterday that there is no surprise in this.
The arrests were actually made by the defendants. They have
the arrest records right before them, and it is an effort to
hamper us in putting on our case.
BY THE COURT:
I don’t see that the City of Jackson has got a thing
in the world to do with the policies of the Galloway Memorial
Church or that Lutheran church that this other witness was
involved in.
BY MR. BELL:
Our problem on it — well, let me say it this way.
We hope to show and I think we can show that the members of the
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(Garner - Direct)
defendant have themselves interfered with the policy, in the
making of the policy, of these individual churches. We hope
to put on a witness later in the day that one of the defendants,
a high city official, who has written a letter which threatened
intimidation of the particular church of which he was a member
unless a vote was conducted that would require segregation in
that church.
__________________________________ 991 .
I think this goes right to the heart of the issues in
the case. I think it goes to the heart of the problem which we
have with the statutes that require every official to do every
thing in his power to maintain segregation. When we show these
statutes, as we have done in other cases, by themselves the
courts who were hearing them said, well, that’s an indication
of what the state’s position is and there is no showing here
that there is any effort to enforce them. What we are trying
to do in this case, Your Honor, is to show that these statutes
are being enforced. There are more ways to enforce a statute
than by arresting an individual. Some of these statutes don’t
have criminal provisions, but they are there as instructions to
the city officials including the defendants here and they are
enforcing them, and this is the kind of thing we have.
BY THE COURT:
What was your question to him?
BY MR. BELL:
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9 92 .
My question was
while attempting to make
segregation.
(Garner - Direct)
whether he had ever been arrested
public his views concerning racial
BY THE COURT:
I will overrule the objection to that particular
question.
THE WITNESS:
A. Yes.
MR. BELL:
Q. Can you tell us when that arrest took place?
A. When?
Q. Yes?
A. The 20th of October, about 9:25 A.M.
BY THE COURT:
If that’s in connection with the church matter, I will
sustain the objection to that.
I understand your position counsel, it’s no use in
your keeping on belaboring the Court after I thoroughly under
stand your point. You go to something else.
MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, in order that this record may
want to call the Court’s attention to the fact that
well knows that the matters involving the church is
show it, I
counsel
a separate
matter, an entirely separate suit; that that suit has been
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(Garner - Direct)
tried in this court and is going to be heard on appeal on the
merits in Jacksonville, Florida, before the Court of Appeals
____________ 993 .
on February 13th, 1964. Counsel well knows that’s a separate
lawsuit. He well knows the issues there are not within the
issues of this case. This witness took the stand in that
suit and counsel is merely now trying to embody what was
brought in that suit in this case, which is already set for
argument before the court of appeals.
BY THE COURT:
I don’t know what counsel knows, but I know what
I know about these pleadings, and you have my ruling. All
right. Go ahead.
BY MR. BELL:
You have already sustained his objection to that?
BY THE COURT:
Yes, that’s right.
BY MR. BELL:
In that case, Your Honor, I would like to make an
offer of proof as provided by Rule 43C.
BY THE COURT:
All right. Make your proffer.
BY MR. BELL:
While I will comply with your ruling as of yesterday
to make it through a statement, I think it behooves me to
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(Garner - Direct)
just call your attention to a Fifth Circuit case on this
matter - just one second please. I*m sorry, T can’t find it,
I thought r had it here.
BY THE COURT:
Go along, counsel. I am thoroughly familiar with the
Rules. I’ve practiced over here a long time probably three or
four times as long as you have.
BY MR. BELL:
____________________________________________________________________________ 994 .
All right, Your Honor. You’ve overruled my motion
to make the offer of proof through the testimony of this
witness?
BY THE COURT:
That’s right. I think that’s a matter that addresses
itself peculiarly to the sound discretion of the trial judge
and L’m not sitting here as a figurehead for anybody.
BY MR. BELL:
Let the record show that if the witness, John Garner,
had been permitted to testify, or if he had been permitted to
testify as provided under Rule 43c of the Federal Rules of Civil
Procedure, he would have indicated that on Sunday, October 20th,
that he, a member of the Galloway Methodist Church, went to his
church along with two ministers who are white and one student
who is a negro, intending to take these persons as visitors;
that he entered his church and was proceeding to a Sunday School
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995 .
(Garner - Direct)
class when an usher halted him and indicated that the negro
guest would have to leave. The witness engaged in conversa
tion concerning this matter with the usher and after several
moments a policeman was called. The policeman ordered the
negro guest to leave and then ordered both the witness and his
guests to leave the church. The witness stated that he was a
member of the Church and that under church rules all members
and their guests and friends were welcome, refused to leave,
and he along with his guests were arrested and charged with
trespass and disturbing public worship. They were released
after placing one thousand dollar bonds.
The witness would further have testified that he felt
it was his right as a member of the church to take guests and
friends to the service, and that he feels moreover that had
he been permitted to talk with the minister as he requested
and had not the police interfered he would have been able
to convince church officials that his guest, regardless of
their race, should have been admitted to the service.
BY THE COURT:
Is that substantially what you would testify, Mr.
Garner?
BY THE WITNESS:
Substantially, yes
BY THE COURT:
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996 .
(Garner - Direct)
r will sustain the objection to that because this is
not a church case, and T don*t see how a church case could be
tried without that church being a party to the suit. r think
this Court would have no jurisdiction whatsoever of this case
if this were a church case and if that church and the Lutheran
church were parties to this suit, which they are not. T think
if such indispensable parties are not here L couldnft hear a
controversy with them and L say it*s outside the ambit of the
pleadings, so L will sustain the objection.
MR. BELL:
VTe have no further questions.
VTe would only say for the record, Your Honor, that we
offered this witness (l) to show the continuing policy alleged
in the complaint of the defendants to arrest any person who
seek to make a protest against racial segregation; and (2)
to show that the policies of the defendant take place and are
conducted in a community which is hostile to racial desegrega
tion and where there is a view held by both public and private
officials that segregation must be carried out at all times and
anyone who departs from it must suffer in one fashion or another,
BY THE COURT:
You see this matter was here and L didn»t remember
when you started talking, but since you have been talking and
since this man has been on the stand T recall that it was he
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997 .
(Garner - Direct)
from whom the testimony was elicited that the Galloway Memorial
Methodist Church, through its Board of Stewards, T believe,
which is its governing body, had promulgated a policy which
was being violated by the very thing that he was doing on this
occasion.
MR. BELL:
VTell this is part of it. We hope to show later on
that this is the policy they had adopted.
BY THE COURT:
rt is the policy of the church, is my recollection.
MR. BELL:
This is the policy of the church and E think it is
important for us to show the policy of the church, not only
this church but many other churches, to show the community
feeling in which the defendants policy is carried on.
Now we had two other witnesses and to move along
we would like to call them to the stand and get their names
and make brief proffers, as to their testimony.
BY THE COURT:
Well, to save time you may simply give the names of
the witnesses and if the testimony is going to be substantially
like Garner*s you may simply say so.
What is the next witness’s name?
MR. BELL:
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9 9 8 .
(Hannah)
This witness is Ida Catherine Hannah.
BY THE COURT:
A H right. Just name her and this other witness,
whatever that witness’s name is __
MR. BELL:
The other witness is Herman Glass.
BY THE COURT:
All right, --- being duly sworn before the Court
that she offers the testimony substantially as follows:
That’s your proffer. X can’t see to save my life the difference
between a good proffer by counsel, allowing counsel to state
in his language rather than the witness’s language. X believe
that’s much better and X say that after long years of experience
doing it myself.
MR. BELL:
X would agree. The only problem is -- X would like
to put on all of my testimony by standing up here and talking,
but the Court of Appeals has said as the reason of this rule
is that if the witness has actually put the testimony on
if the Court of Appeals reviewing the record determines that
the ruling by the Court was improper they can then go on and
take notice of that testimony just as though it was admitted,
and if it is just a proffer it is likely that it will be
necessary to indicate the facts, thus taking a lot of time and
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999 .
effort.
(Hannah)
BY THE COURT:
I wouldn*t see anything whatsoever in that kind of
conclusion because when you say what she testifies to so far
as this record is concerned that witness has so testified, and
if they are so disposed to take the record if it were a ques
tion and answer they would certainly be at liberty to do it on
a proffer of counsel.
MR. BELL:
All right, sir.
Witness Hannah, a junior at Tougal
permitted to testify would have testified th
the Capitol Street Methodist Church on Octob
13th and October 20th; that on October 6th s
with her was turned away from the church by
that they were not welcome. They were then
by the police and started to leave but were
charged with trespass and disturbing public
required to post one thousand dollars bond f
The arrest was by the Jackson City police.
On October 13th she again attempte
Capitol Street Methodist Church. On this oc
car followed them almost all the way from th
00 Coll ege, if
at she visited
e r 6th, 0ctobe r
he and a group
an ushe r who sa
ordered to leave
arrested and
worship and were
or the release.
d to visit the
casion a police
e campus and
turned them away before they could make an effort to enter the
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(Hannah)
(Glass)
church.
On October 20th they again made an effort to visit
the Capitol Street Methodist Church and again were arrested
on a similar charge and released on a similar bond by the
officers of the Jackson police.
The witness would further testify that her efforts
to visit the Capitol Street church were to worship there and
also to communicate with fellow Christians her views concerning
racial segregation.
Now the final one, - would you want to have that
individual sworn also or could we just ---
Witness HERMAN GLASS, a negro student at Tougaloo
College on November 17th, 1963, along with two white ministers,
made an effort to visit Galloway Methodist Church. They were
stopped at the entrance of the church by an usher who said
that the two white ministers were welcome but that the negro
would not be admitted. The group was then asked to leave the
church property and indicated they would do so but wished to
stay in the area. The usher was unable to tell them exactly
where the property line ended and in front of the church con
tinued his discussion with the witness and his friends
concerning whether or not they should be admitted.
Policemen who were in the area came up and asked the
group to leave. The group refused to leave and were placed
____________________________________________ __ 1 0 0 0 .
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1001 .
(Glass)
under arrest and charged with disturbing the public worship
service. To the best of this witness*s understanding he was
released the following day after a five hundred dollar bond was
placed with the authorities. This witness also had attempted
to visit the church to communicate his views in a peaceable
fashion concerning racial segregation.
I would just like to add to the record on this general
line of testimony that the prayer of the complaint in paragraph
3(g) —
BY THE COURT:
That what?
MR. BELL:
The prayer of the complaint --
BY THE COURT:
VThat number?
MR. BELL:
Paragraph 3(g).
BY THE COURT:
That must be in the second count.
MR. BELL:
Lt*s at the end of the first count, Your Honor.
BY THE COURT:
Paragraph 3(g), - oh, in the prayer?
MR. BELL:
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1002 .
I think page 9 of the first count, though X believe
that there is a similar provision after in the second count,
but r think the first count is the — well, in the second count
the appropriate paragraph would be 2(d).
Now in the first count we asked for an injunction
against further efforts to interfere with or enjoin peaceable
or orderly demonstrations conducted by the plaintiffs. Then in
the prayer in count two we asked specifically for injunction
against the further prosecution of the effort made by the
defendants to obtain an injunction against certain activities
which plaintiffs designated as a peaceful protest.
Now in the pre-trial order of this case, paragraph
4, it was indicated that all previous testimony, and Mr.
McClendon made it clear that that should include exhibits,
should be treated as part of the record in this case. And you
will recall in the prior hearing of the case on preliminary
injunction Mr. Watkins indicated, we have no objection to their
filing for the court’s consideration a conformed copy of the
entire proceedings in the Chancery Court of the First Judicial
District of Hinds County in which the City of Jackson obtained
a temporary injunction against certain defendants therein
named, some of whom are the plaintiffs in this case from
demonstrating or engaging in unlawful boycotts and other type
demonstrations. (There is no page 1003, go to page 1004)
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So that we do have as a part of the record in this
case the whole body of the pleadings of the effort by the
defendants pleadings in the case in the Chancery Court. Now
a part of those pleadings as counsel for defendants well know
is that there is an effort to enjoin against what they refer
to as l,kne el—ins1* and what we refer to through these witnesses
as efforts to peacefully communicate with churches to get their
members to admit persons without regard to race. So they are
a part of the pleadings in this case.
BY THE COURT:
Counsel I have heard enough from you on that. You can
be seated. I don*t want to hear any more out of you on that
pleading because I have read that pleading very carefully.
You are talking about one thing and arguing about something
else. I donTt want to hear any more from you about that be
cause L am thoroughly familiar with these pleadings.
MR. BELL:
All right, Your Honor.
We call as our next witness Memphis Norman.
MEMPHIS NORMAN
having first been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q. Would you state your full name?
________________________ _____________ ________________________________________ 1004 .
BY MR. BELL:
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1005
♦Norman Pirectl
A. Memphis Norman,
Q. Where do you live?
l. r am attending college at Tougaloo College My home
is Wiggins Mississippi
BZ THE COURT:
T didnvt get your first name /ou said your last
name was Norman.
THE WITNESS:
Memphis Norman
MR. BELL:
Q. What is your classification at Tougaloo College?
-a. Senior,
Q. Are you a negro?
A. Zes
Q. Have you ever participated in any demonstrations
protesting racial segregation?
A. Zes I have
Q. Did you participate in such a demonstration on the
28th. of May 1963?
A. Zes I did
Q. Would you tell the Court what happened on that
occasion 9
A. On May 28th three students from Tougaloo College
participated in a sit-in at Woolworth Five and Ten Store on
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1006 .
(N orman - Direct)
Capitol Street. We entered the store about 11:00 o?clock and
remained in there for about fifteen minutes. During this
fifteen minutes we bought some items, at least we purchased
some items from the store, and at about 11:30 we went over
and took seats along the lunch counter to buy some food. We
had ordered three hamburgers and three cups of coffee. The
waitress refused to give us service. She mentioned that there
was a negro counter in the rear of the store. rt was our
contention that a public lunch counter should be able to serve
to everybody and not just to whites and exclude negroes, and
we went and sat on the counter to order food.
She refused to give us service and we sat on by the
counter. The lights over the counter were turned out and
ropes were put around the other stools of the counter.
News men began to gather around the counter and
there were some camera men there also, and r would gather there
were about two hundred spectators there in the store.
We sat on for about thirty minutes to an hour in
which time some smoke was blown on the three of us.
Q. Who did that?
A. Beg your pardon.
Q. Who did that?
A. T didnTt look back to see who it was some person
from the group of spectators that did this.
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(N orman - Direct)
rn a few minutes someone struck me from behind on this
side of the head and I was pulled from the stool. The other
two girls on the stools were pulled away too. And I was, — the
man that pulled me from the stool began to kick me in the
______________________ 1 0 0 7 .
stomach and on the head and in the back, and I tried to get
up and he knocked me back down again.
r made no attempt to resist. This continued for
about four minutes, or five minutes. There was a plain clothes-
man, a man that I took for a detective, and a man with a polo
shirt came in and took me out. I was arrested on a charge of
breach of the peacef disturbing the peace.
Q. Do you know whether the person who attacked you was
also arrested?
A. Yes, I learned later that he was arrested.
Q. Let*s go back. When you sat down and requested
service, can you tell me whether you and your group were acting
in a boisterous fashion, in other words, acting in a manner that
you would not be served?
A. No, we weren’t.
Q. Was any indication given to you as to why you were
not served?
A. The only thing that she told us that there was a
negro counter in the rear of the store and we should go there
for service
1 0 0 8 .
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(Norman - Direct)
BY THE COURT:
Q. T don ? t believe T understood you very clearly about
who it was that pulled you off the stool and who it was that
you say kicked you in the stomach and struck you.
A. Well later I learned his name as being Mr. Benny
Oliver.
Q. Who is he?
A. An ex—policeman from the police department.
Q. He is not a policeman now?
A. No. he is not. He was an ex-policeman.
Q. Mr. Benny Oliver?
A. From Anquilla.
MR. BELL:
Q. I ask you whether when you and your group took your
seats at the lunch counter whether there were any policemen
in the store or in the immediate vicinity?
A. Well, when we approached the counter, there were two
policemen in the store that we saw. After we sat down we looked
about to see if there were any policemen after we saw the
spectators gathering but there were no policemen in the store
at all.
Q. In other words, you saw the policemen when you sat
down?
A. That’s right.
1 0 0 9 .
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(N orman - Direct)
Q. But when the crowd began to gather you did not see
the policemen further?
A. That's right.
Q. Did the spectators grow slowly or not?
A. You mean in size?
Q. Right.
A. Yes, the group got larger.
Q. What was their mood?
A. Well there was jeering from the audience and some
slang words coming from the audience. We were accused of
being communist agitators and that sort of thing.
Q. Was this carried on loudly?
A. Yes, it was loud.
Q. And approximately how long did this jeering and all
go on prior to the time you were struck?
A. As T mentioned, it was between, - I had no watch
to tell time - it was between thirty minutes and an hour.
There was a lot of confusion, people were jeering and yelling
and this sort of thing, and we were sort of upset too.
Q. To your knowledge during this period of time did
any officers of the Jackson police or any other officers
attempt to disperse this unruly crowd?
A. No, there were not any attempts by any policeman
25 to disperse the crowd
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(N orman - Direct)
Q. To your knowledge was any effort made by any persons
to call for police help?
A. Not to my notice.
Q. Would you review with us again how you were struck
and knocked from your stool?
A. X was hit from behind on this side of the head.
Q. Which side are you referring to?
A. The right side.
Q. All right.
A. And X fell being pulled from the stool I fell on the
floor, and I made no attempt to resist anything, fight back.
Q. Why didnVt you make any attempt to resist?
A. This was a non-violence protest against segregation.
Q. What is the significance of that, your failing to
offer any resistance?
A. X felt that to fight back would accomplish nothing
and I felt that if, - well, this would create more confusion,
to fight back.
____________________________ _______________ ___________________________________ 1 0 1 0 .
Q. So you offered no resistance?
A. That *s right.
Q. How long did the beating go on before it was stopped?
A. As X said about four to five minutes.
Q. Who did stop it?
A. There was a plain clothesman r took that he was a
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1011 .
(Norman - Direct)
detective, and a man in a polo shirt. I donTt know whether he
was a manager of the store or anything like that.
Q. During this time did any of the other spectators
attempt to stop your beating?
A. No.
Q. During the time, the half hour to the hour, were
the other students with you molested at all?
A. No, they were not. There were a few thumb tacks and
a few other items thrown from the audience on us.
Q. What happened after you were taken out of the store?
A. I was taken down to the police department and I was
booked with disturbing the peace, r was fingerprinted and they
took pictures of me. I waited about thirty minutes and I was
taken to the hospital for examination.
Q. What did that examination show?
A. Well, they found that nothing was wrong with me,
and r was taken to a negro doctor, Doctor Williams on Lynch
Street, and he told me T had suffered a slight concussion be
cause I was bleeding from the ears, mouth and from the nose.
Q. Did you have any other injuries at all?
A. Yes, I suffered a cut here on the forehead and on the
cheek here.
Q. Were you subsequently tried on the charges on which
you were arrested?
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1 0 1 2 .
(Norman - Direct)
A. No, I wasn't, During the trial the charge against me
was dropped and I served as a witness against Mr. Oliver.
Q. Mr. Oliver is the man you later identified as your
assailant?
A. That*s right.
Q. What was Mr. Oliver charged with?
A. He was charged with disturbing the peace, the same
as r was, and he was given thirty days in jail.
Q. He was found guilty?
A. Yes. He was given thirty days in jail and a hundred
dollar fine.
Q. Do you know whether he actually served that sentence
or paid that fine?
A. No, E do not, not to my knowledge.
Q. r ask you whether there were police officers outside
Woolworth*s when you and the others in the group went into the
store?
A. There were policemen outside on Capitol Street on
the sidewalk when we went into the store and we found out later
from some friends that during the time ----
MR. WATKINS:
We object to what some friends told him later, Your
Honor, - that»s purely hearsay.
BY THE COURT:
1013 .
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(Norman - Direct)
I will hear him and then rule on it, let’s see what
it is .
MR. BELL:
Go on and testify so the Court can determine whether
it is competent testimony.
A. L found out later from some of my friends and from
my college chaplain that there were some policemen standing
outside the store during the beating.
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BY THE COURT:
E will sustain the objection.
MR. BELL:
Q. But you did yourself see policemen outside the store
when you and your group went in?
A. That*'s right.
Q. Do you remember approximately how many policemen
were outside?
A. No, r don’t remember.
Q. Do you remember whether it was a large or small
numb e r?
A. Well, they were strung out all down Capitol Street.
Q. So you would say there was a large number of police
men?
MR. WATKENS:
We object to his leading, Your Honor.
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1014 .
BY THE COURT:
Sustain the objection.
MR. BELL:
(Norman - Direct)
Q. You say they were strung out all down Capitol Street?
A. Yes, sir, in small groups.
Q. At approximately what intervals were they strung out
and approximately how many were they in small groups?
A. It was really scattered down Capitol Street. They
weren’t any specific distance apart.
Q. How long have you been in the Jackson area?
A. L have attended Tougaloo College, this is my fourth
year there.
date
Q. Are you fairly familiar with Capitol Street?
A. Yes, L am, quite familiar with it.
Q. Were there more policemen on Capitol Street on that
than there normally are?
A. Yes.
Q. Were there a great many more or just a few more than
usual?
A. There were a great many more that day.
Q. When you were carried out of the store did you notice
whether there were policemen outside the store or in the area
at that time?
A. There were policemen outside the store.
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1015 .
(Norman - Direct)
Q. Were they in great or small numbers?
A. r would estimate between twenty to twenty five.
Q. In the immediate vicinity of the store?
A. Yes, because there were some people who had been
arrested for picketing just across the street from Woolworth’s.
Policemen had come to take them away and the ones on the other
side came over to the side of the street Woolworth’s is located
on.
Q. Now when you were carried out of the store, did you
notice whether or not any of the policemen who were outside
were making any effort to disperse the unruly crowd of persons
in the store?
A. No, no attempts were made to disperse the crowd.
MR. BELL:
r think no further questions, Your Honor.
CROSS EXAHINATrON
BY MR. NrCHOLS:
Q. This altercation occurred T believe you said on the
28th of May?
A. That’s right.
Q. Now what did you do when you first went in Woolworth’s
s to re?
A. We bought a few items.
Q. What did you buy and where in the store?
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10-Lb .
(Norman - Cross)
A. I bought two flashlight batteries, a gas book and a
note pad.
Q. Did you have any particular purpose in mind in
purchasing these items?
A. No particular purpose.
Q. Did you go there for the purpose of buying the flash-
light batteries and the note book?
A. We went for the purpose of — we wanted to protest
the segregation pattern.
Q. Did you want to protest anything about flashlight
batteries and notebooks?
A. No.
Q. Did the thought to purchase these batteries occur
to you after you got to the store or was that part of your
plan?
A. We wanted to buy some items so that we could be
patrons of the store and not just go there for the purpose of
protesting or sit-in demonstration. We wanted to be patrons
of the store and thereby we felt that we had the right being
patrons of the store to be customers at the lunch counter
anywhere in the store that we wished.
Q. So your purpose was to establish yourself as patrons
before you went to the lunch counter, is that right?
A. T h a t Ts right
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1 01 7 .
(Norman - Cross)
Q. Now are you familiar with Woolworth’s store?
A. Yes.
Q. You have been in there many times?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it not true that that store is a very long store?
A. That’s right, it is long.
Q. Ts it not true that it is completely filled with
small counters?
A. Yes.
Q. Ls it not true that these counters are piled high
with merchandise up to, say, the eye level of the average
pe rs on?
A. Most of them you can see across but there are some
that you can’t see across.
Q. Tell me whether you can stand in the front door of
Woolworth’s and see all the way through that store in an
unobstructed fashion.
A. The store is built north-south. The counters are
north-south. The counter we were sitting at we could look
outside the store, nothing obstructing our view.
Q. Now the counter, where was the counter you were
sitting at in relation to the front door?
A. The counter is along this way and the front door is
this way, and we were sitting along the counter here and the
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1 0 1 8 .
(Norman - Cross)
front door
Q.
A.
Q.
was this way.
The front door faces south, I believe, does it not?
That*s right.
And if you walk in the store you walk to the north,
is
of
that
the
C'orrect?
A. Walk to the no rth.
Q. And the counter is
store, is it not?
A. In the west of the
Q. Would it be to the
located in the northwest corner
store.
north or the south on the west
side?
A. I don*t get your question right clear.
Q. Is it closer to the front door or the back door?
A. The counter is closer to the front door.
Q. How far is it from the front door?
A. It runs down-- I don*t know exactly in terms of
Q. You are not attempting to tell the Court that it runs
the whole length of the west side of the store, are you?
A. No, I am not attempting to say that.
MR. BELL:
Your Honor, we would like at this time to enter a
general objection to the type of question we have had right
along. I think there should be some showing of what counsel
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1 0 1 9 .
(Norman - Cross)
has in mind except consumption of time in this type of cross
examination. This man doesn’t have to be an architect and
have the plans of the store. He goes on at great length on
every witness.
BY THE COURT:
Well, counsel, you know the court can’t try a case
until I’ve heard it and that’s the reason the latitude on cross
examination is very wide.
MR. BELL:
Your Honor, I would have not the same objection to
it, but we are being greatly limited in our proof, the proof
that we are able to put on. Counsel on the other side has
even cross examined almost complete without any rulings on it
at all in the hopes that somehow they can catch someone in an
inconsistency or something with no showing that it relates to
the case.
BY THE COURT:
I can’t make any comparison between my rulings on
this and rulings on things which you have submitted, and 1
don’t like your intimations.
MR. BELL:
All right, Your Honor, I just wanted to enter the
objection.
MR. NICHOLS:
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1 0 2 0 .
(Norman - Cross)
Q. Now I am trying to ask you how far the lunch counter
is from the front door?
A. I don*t know in terms of feet but anyone sitting at
the lunch counter can see out the front door. There were no
people sitting between us and the door. The stools, as I
mentioned, had been blocked off and just sitting there you can
look out the front door.
Q. You mean you sat at the blocked off portion of the
lunch counter?
A. The portion that we were sitting in was not blocked
off.
Q. Oh, there was a blocked off portion there but you
sat at an open portion, is that correct?
A, We sat there before the place was blocked off.
Q. How many people were with you?
A. There were three of us.
Q. Were they all negroes?
A. Yes.
Q. There were no white people with you?
A. There were some came and took my seat when I left
after I was beaten but when we went there there were only three
negroes.
Q. Is it not true that John Salters was with you that
day?
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1021 .
(Norman - Cross)
A. He was with us that day. He came in and sat after I
left, after I had been taken to the hospital and to the police
department.
Q. Is it not true that Dr. Beitle was there that day?
A. Yes, he was in the spectators.
Q. Ls it not true that he was then and is now president
of Tougaloo College?
A. He is president of Tougaloo College.
Q. He is white, is he not?
A. He’s white.
Q. Now prior to your going to Woolworth’s store for the
purpose of establishing yourself as a patron and seeking service
at the counter, did anyone in your group or did you notify any
of the news media of your intention?
A. Not to my knowledge. I knew nothing about this
communication.
Q. Now, you went in and sat down. Did anything occur
prior to your being struck?
A. As I mentioned, there was some jeering, some slang
from the audience and as I mentioned some thumb tacks were
thrown and cigarette butts and that sort of thing.
Q. Did you turn around and look at the crowd that was
jeering?
A. No.
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1022 .
(Norman - Cross)
Q. How were you sitting at the counter?
A. We were facing the counter.
Q. And of course you were unable to see the crowd be
hind you, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. For all you knew the crowd might have had both colored
and white people in it, is that correct?
A, That’s right.
Q. So the Joering might have come from both negroes and
white people, is that correct? I moan for all you know.
A. Well, they were back there and I didn’t look back
there. It could have.
Q. And you were struck from the rear; that is, you were
not struck from the side, but someone to your rear, is that
correct?
A. T h a t ’ s r i g h t .
Q, Ani l y o u h n v e n o i d e a w h o h I m o k y o u T
A, N o t a t l Im l I 1 me 1 h a d n n 1 d o n w h o « t
U- W a l l 4 p y o u k n o w n o w w h o s t r u o k y o u ?
A. 1 k n o w n o w .
U W a l l , wl i n s 1 m u k y © n t
A, M r , It e n d v O l i v e r .
Q. Ho w d o y o u k n o w M i n i ?
A. H e t e s t 1 1' l e d t h a t h e d i d .
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1023 .
(Norman - Cross)
Q. I believe he testified that he struck you several
times while you were on the floor?
A. That’s right.
Q. Are you certain that he testified that he struck you
while you were on the stool?
A. I testified before that I had no idea who hit me from
behind. He testified himself that he beat me while I was on the
floor.
Q. But he did not testify that he was the one that
originally struck you, did he?
A. That’s right.
Q. Consequently you don’t know the race of the person
that struck you originally, do you?
A. No, L don ’ t.
Q. r mean it could have been a negro or a white man,
a Chinese or something like that, is that correct?
A. Yes, it could have been.
Q. Oliver is the one that pulled you from the stool?
A. He is the one that pulled me from the stool, and then
beat me.
Q. Yes, he is the one who committed assault on you.
A. That’s right.
Q. r believe he kicked you while you were on the floor?
A. T h a t ’s right.
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1024 .
(Norman - Cross)
Q. Ajid committed other assaults on your body, is that
correct?
A. That’s right.
Q. Now at the time that was going on were there any
police inside Woolworth’s store, to your knowledge?
A. Not to my knowledge there were none in there.
Q. Immediately prior to your being struck, that is, just
before you were struck, while you were sitting at the counter
did you have occasion to look about that store and ascertain
whether or not any police were inside the store at that time?
A. As I mentioned when we went in the store and sat
down there were two policemen in the store that we saw. We
saw no policemen after that, none whatsoever.
Q. That was when you fi rst went in?
A. Yes, when we first went in.
Q. Was it before you bought your flashlight batte rie s ?
A. It was during the time that I bought my flashlight
batteries.
Q. About that time?
A. About that time.
Q. Did you have occasion to see those policemen any
time after that?
A. No.
Q. So as far as you know they might have been just
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(N orman - Cross)
passing through and walked on out, is that correct?
A. That’s right, or they could have been over on the far
side of the store.
Q. r believe you stated a police officer broke up this
assault.
A. I said a man in plain clothes, he might have been a
detective.
Q. You don’t know whether he was a police or not?
A. No.
Q. And you testified somebody in a white shirt?
A. A polo shirt, green polo shirt.
Q. Polo shirt?
A. That’s right.
Q. Someone pulled Oliver away from you?
A. That’s right.
Q. At what point did a police or someone you recognized
as a policeman have contact with you after the fight?
A. Well, I was taken to a policeman’s car, - there were
three in the car. That’s the first time L saw a policeman in
uniform.
Q. You were taken from the store to a policeman’s car?
A. Yes.
Q. Who took you there?
_____________ __ _______________________________ 1 0 2 5 .
A. The man in the polo shirt and the one with the plain
1026 .
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(Norman - Cross)
suit on.
Q. Did he identify himself as being a police officer?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any particular reason for going with
them?
A. He took me with him. I was caught by the arm. The
man with the polo shirt caught me on this side and the one
with the plain suit caught me on this side and they took me
from the store.
Q. Man in the plain clothes on the other side?
A. Yes sir, one on this side and one on this side.
Q. One was on either side of you, and did they say
anything to you at the time they were taking you?
A. No, they didn’t.
Q. Did they say anything at the time they met the
policemen?
A. No.
Q. They didn’t say "here he is, we are turning him over
to you" or anything?
A. No, they didn’t.
Q. What if anything did the police say to you?
A. There was no communication with the police until r
was questioned as to my identity.
Q. As a matter of fact, at that time, having been kicked
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1027 .
(Norman - Cross)
and cut about the eye, you were kind of dazed, were you not?
A. Yes, r was, but r was conscious.
Q. Oh yes, you were able to walk.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were bleeding about the face were you?
A. Yes, but T could see.
Q. You could see of course. Did you mean to tell me in
that condition you then made a mental note as to the number of
policemen outside the store at that time?
A. r was conscious. r could see. r could count. Yes.
Q. Did you have a conversation with Dr. Beitle when you
came out of the store?
A. No, r didnTt.
Q. You were taken by the police to the hospital, were
you not?
A. r was taken first to the police station.
Q. Then you were taken for medical treatment?
A. Yes, after leaving the police station T was taken
for medical treatment.
Q. Then you appeared in City Court on the 31st day of
May at the trial of Benny Oliver, did you not?
A. That*s right.
Q. And you testified there similar to what you testified
here as concerns the incident, is that correct?
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1028 .
(Norman - Cross)
A. That’s right.
Q. And is it not true that Benny Oliver was convicted
by the City Municipal Judge and, as you say, fined and given
a jail sentence?
A. That ’ s t rue .
Q. And the charges against you were dismissed?
A. That’s right.
Q. Were the other parties with you at the lunch counter
that day, - do you know of your own knowledge whether or not
they were arrested?
A. They were not arrested, not even the ones who joined
them afterwards.
Q. I beg your pardon.
A. Not even the ones who joined them afterwards were
arrested.
Q. Other parties came in in your group and took your
place?
A. That’s right.
Q. They were not arrested by the police.
A. That’s right.
Q. You mentioned that you had planned to go to Wool-
worth’s for this purpose, as you have already told the Court.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was this planning session held at Tougaloo College?
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(Norman - Cross)
A. It was my wish before the demonstration to take part
in some action to show my personal belief as a citizen of
Mississippi and of America that I could go any where I wish
in the public as a free man and sit at any lunch counter I
wanted to to obtain service.
Q. I understand. You told us that, but that's not the
question.
______________________________________ _ 1 0 2 9 .
A. I was approached by some students that there would
be a sit-in demonstration and I wanted to take part in it.
And we left campus and assembled at the Masonic Temple for
direction as to where to go and what was to be done.
Q. Who gave you these directions?
A. I disremember who it was. It was at the Masonic
Temple. It was some NAACP officials.
Q. Prior to going to the Masonic Temple, had you met
with John Salter at Tougaloo?
A. No.
Q. Concerning this - planning this?
A. No.
Q. Was John Salter with you out at Masonic Temple
that day?
A. He was out there.
MR. NICHOLS:
May it please the Court, that's all
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1030
(Norman - Redirect)
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
Q. When you went to the Masonic Temple with the others
who volunteered to take part in the protests and you said you
received instructions, will you tell the Court the nature of
those instructions?
A. Before I left the campus I had no idea directly as
to what actions I was to participate in. I found out later
that I was to participate in a sit-in demonstration at Wool-
worth* s lunch counter on Capitol Street. This would be a
non-violent protest. If I was attacked I was not to fight
back, and - well, this was my personal conviction anyway,
non-violent.
Q. Was that pretty much the instructions you received
the re ?
A. Yes, that was all.
MR. BELL:
No further questions.
(Witness excused).
CLEVELAND DONALD
having first been duly sworn, testified as follows.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
Q. State your full name please.
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1031 .
(Donald. - Direct)
A. Cleveland Donald.
Q. And your age?
A. Seventeen.
Q. Are you a student?
A. Yes I am.
Q. Where?
A. Tougaloo College.
Q. Have you been involved in protesting against racial
segregation?
A. Yes, r have.
Q. Were you or were you not involved in protests against
racial segregation on May 31st?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And were you again involved in protests against
racial segregation on June 12th?
A. Yes I was.
Q. Have you made efforts to protest against racial
segregation at the public library in Jackson?
A. Yes I have.
Q. When did that effort take place?
MR. WATKINS:
If it please the Court, we object to that now. Tt is
not within the issues of this lawsuit.
BY THE COURT:
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1 0 3 2 .
Sustain the objection.
(Donald - Direct)
MR. BELL:
Mr. Watkins, Your Honor, made that objection again
on similar testimony concerning the present policy of the
public library and the court overruled it and I don’t see why,
since it is part of the proof you have permitted us to make,
he is making the same objection on it. We had a fitness who
over his objection was permitted to testify as to what occurs
at the public library in Jackson now when negroes go there to
use its facilities.
BY THE COURT:
I just don’t think these public facilities are at
all involved in what is presented by the complaint in this
case. It is predicated entirely and alone on the first count
which is demonstrations against businesses on Capitol Street,
and I am just not disposed to expand those issues at all.
MR. BELL:
All right, Your Honor, I won’t argue the point, but
I will make a proffer.
BY THE COURT:
All right.
MR. BELL:
The testimony of the witness having been objected to
and the Court having sustained the objection, counsel for
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1033 .
(Donald - Direct)
plaintiff made an offer under Rule 43(c), and the Court having
advised counsel making the offer to make a proffer of such
testimony states:
That if the witness had been permitted to testify
he would have said that he had been visiting the public library
in the City of Jackson, which library has in the past been
designated for white persons only; that he visited such library
about June 1st, 1963, and while he was not excluded from the
library a member of the City police force who was on duty at
the Library followed him all about the library. He was per
mitted to use the library and has done so several times but on
each occasion the policeman who is on duty follows him around
and generally stands near his seat.
It is his purpose to protest the continued refusal
of the City officials to permit negroes to use public facili
ties including the library on basis no different than white
persons are able to use these facilities.
BY THE COURT:
All right.
MR. BELL:
VTe have no further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Where do you live or reside?
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1 0 3 4 .
(Donald - Cross)
A. I live at 3030 Marion Dunbar, Jackson, Mississippi.
Q. Now you testified on May 31st, 1963, you were
arre sted?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. You didn*t give us any of the details.
A. No, I did not.
Q. Where was this arrest?
A. I was arrested on Livingston - at the corner of
Livingston Road and Ridgeway Street.
Q. And there were a large number of you arrested at that
time, weren't there?
A. Yes, there were.
Q. How many?
A. There were about between one hundred and two hund red
people.
Q. Who had put you together; how had you gotten together,
that many people?
A. We did this on our own.
Q. Just a spontaneous ---
BY THE COURT:
Mr. Travis, I am disposed to follow the rule, which
is that this is outside the scope of the direct examination on
a witness of this kind particularly when you are going into
have been into so many different times.something that we
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(Donald - Cross)
BY MR. TRAVIS:
Q. All right. I will pass to the next one and simply
ask him this - you mentioned a second arrest?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. Where was that?
A. This was on Lynch Street.
Q. Lynch and Poindexter?
A. Yes.
Q. And I believe there were 146 of you arrested on that
occasion?
A. I am not sure of that.
Q. There was a large number?
A. Yes, there was.
MR. TRAVIS:
That*s all.
MR. BELL:
No further questions.
BY THE COURT:
That was my interpretation of the proper application
of the sound judicial discretion to apply the rule. I think you
can see what my attitude is toward this particular situation
where it is different in the interest of getting rid of the
case.
MR. BELL:
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(Donald - Cross)
(Adams - Direct)
Well, I wanted to make a statement prior to calling this
witness that our objection was as to what we felt was the in
consistency as to the rulings on relevancy, and not an indica
tion or any intimation of any bias or anything by the Court.
I wanted to make that clear.
(Witness excused).
McHENRY ADAMS
having first been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Give us your name please.
A. McHenry Adams.
Q. Where do you live?
A. 3143 Tougaloo Street, Jackson, Mississippi.
Q. How long have you lived in Jackson?
A. All my life.
Q. How old are you?
A. Sixteen.
Q. Are you a negro?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you belong to the YMCA?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have a YMCA membership card?
_____________________________________ _____________ 1036 .
A. Yes.
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1 0 3 7 .
(Adams - Direct)
Q. What type YMCA facilities are here in Jackson?
BY THE COURT;
Counsel you don’t speak distinctly either. I can’t
hear you.
MRS. MORRIS:
I’m sorry, Your Honor.
MR. WATKINS:
If it please the Court, I am going to object to the
question "What type YMCA facilities are here in Jackson?"
That hasn’t got a thing in the world to do with this lawsuit.
MRS. MORRIS:
I will withdraw the question.
BY THE COURT:
Counsel you are from a different part of the country
from me and I can’t understand your enunciations so very well.
MRS. MORRIS:
I will try to talk slowly and loudly.
BY THE COURT;
All right, thank you.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Have you used the YMCA facilities in Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. Are they segregated?
MR. WATKINS:
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1038 .
We object to that, if it please the Court. Whether
YMCAs are segregated in Jackson doesn»t have a thing in the
world to do with this case.
BY THE COURT;
I will overrule the objection. Go ahead.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Did you make an attempt to use other YMCA facilities?
A. Repeat that question.
Q. Did you try to use the white YMCA?
MR. WATKINS:
May I have a standing objection on this, Your Honor?
BY THE COURT;
Yes, I will sustain your objection to that.
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, may I say this. Now we get back into
the policy as to relevancy. What we are talking about in this
case is the right for people to protest segregation in Jackson.
This is another group of students who went to the YMCA during
the summer of 1963. I will try to fix a date for you.
BY THE COURT:
Were they protesting or were they trying to use the
facilities?
MRS. MORRIS:
I think it was a protest because I think they were
pretty well aware of what treatment they would receive when they
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(Adams - Direct)
got there.
BY THE COURT:
Well--
MRS. MORRIS:
Excuse me, Your Honor, I don’t want to cut you off,
but I can’t see any great difference between this and the group
that went to Primos. That’s a private facility. The Supreme
Court has already ruled in the Longhart and Peterson cases that
it may be a means of protest.
BY THE COURT:
Well, I have tried to allow you some latitude because
I believe that’s within the contemplation of our notice pleading
rule, being very liberal, but I just don’t believe that’s in
tended to make an entirely different case from that which you
stated in your complaint, and my view of this complaint is that
it’s one about which there have been demonstrations about things
on Capitol Street and the activities and connections of the
City with those private businesses and their participation and
their disposition of the matters with respect to private
businesses on Capitol Street, and I see nothing else involved.
That’s the reason I keep ruling as I do. I don’t see the
pertinency or relevancy of matters that are not involved on
Capitol Street. I understand what your viewpoint is. I know
_______________________ ________________________________________________ 1 0 3 9 .
what your thinking is, and I know what your difficulty is in
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1040 .
(Adams - Direct)
making your proof but I still think we are obliged to follow
our pleadings.
MRS. MORRIS:
May I make one more statement before Your Honor rules
on this?
BY THE COURT:
Yes, you may.
MRS. MORRIS:
Vfhat we are trying to show the court or whatever court
will eventually rule on this is what happens when the defendants
or agents of the defendants superimpose themselves upon the
community attitude, or between what might be a private dis
criminatory attitude of the public who had the intervening hand
of the government at that time. And I am trying to show that
in this instance as in other instances that Mr. Bell has been
talking about.
BY THE COURT:
Well, that aspect of it is what I have been interested
in, and interested in the pertinency and relevancy of that
aspect of it. That’s the reason I have let you go somewhat
beyond the pleadings in other matters. I will see what you’ve
got in mind. Go ahead and ask your question.
Q. Will you tell us when you went to the YMCA?
MRS. MORRIS:
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(Adams - Direct)
A. You mean the segregated YMCA?
Q. That’ s right.
A. The one on State Street.
Q. You knew it was segregated when you went there,
didn’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. And that it was for white persons only?
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, I would like to ask that
counsel not lead the witness. She can ask him what he did.
BY THE COURT;
Well, I don’t believe that’s too leading. Go ahead.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. How many persons were with you?
A. Three of us - four including myself.
Q. Were they all negroes?
A. They all was negroes.
Q. Do you know whether they belonged to the YMCA?
A. Most of them said they did.
Q. You yourself did?
A. Me myself, I belonged to it.
Q. Now what happened when you got to the YMCA?
A. We first got there we asked the man could we use
___________________ _______ ____________ ______________________________________ 1 0 4 1 .
some of the facilities that was there He told us that the
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(Adams - Direct)
1042
Y was segiegated and that we couldn’t - as long as we had been
living in Jackson we knew we couldn’t use the white Y.
Q. How long did you stay there on the inside of the Y?
A. About an hour.
Q. Did he allow you to stay during that period or did
he ask you to leave?
A. He allowed us to stay.
Q. Did you talk to him during this period?
A. Yes, we talked to him during that period.
Q. Subsequent to this, after you finished talking to
him, what did you do?
A. We asked him could we have any water and he give us
some water. He told us we had to leave, and we told him we
would like to stay at the Y, and so we went out and sat on the
steps and so a group of white kids came by. They didn’t ask to
come in but they went on around to the back. So he came out and
asked us to move. I guess they went inside and told him.
Q. Did you move at that time?
A. No.
Q. Did the policemen come along?
A. No, they didn’t come along after he told us to move
but a few minutes later the president of the Y came and asked
us to move and he was the one called the police.
Q. Did the police come?
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1043 •
(Adams - Direct)
A. Yes they came, and they asked us to move on.
Q. Where were you at this time?
A. We were on the steps.
Q. At the Y?
A. At the Y.
Q. Were you quiet or singing or what were you doing?
A. We was quiet.
Q. What did the policeman do?
A. He taken our names and asked us whether we could
move on or he would take us to jail. We didn’t say anything so
he told us to get in the car.
Q. Do you know what you were arrested for?
A. Trespassing on private property.
Q. Were you taken to the jail or to the fairground?
A. We was taken to the city jail.
Q. How long were you there?
A. Seven or eight days.
Q. When you were released, how were you released?
A. T was released to go to a school until school started,
a farm school.
Q. What kind of school?
A. I don’t know. He told us it was a jail school or
something like that, until school started back.
Q. Did you go to this school?
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1044 .
(Adams - Direct)
A. We went to the school for one week until they taken us
down to the fairgrounds, and left us down there, so we didn’t
go back. So they picked us up again for contempt of court.
Q. Where did they send you this time?
A. They sent us to a marching school.
Q. A school building, a regular school - public school?
A. Yes.
Q. One of the negro school buildings?
A. One of the negro schools.
Q. Now while you were down at the fairgrounds in this
“school1*, what did you do during the time you were there?
A. They gave us some books to read, but we didn’t have
an instructor or anything.
Q. How many of you were down there?
A. At this time about ten.
Q. Now you took part, - did you take part in any other
protest demonstrations this summer?
A. No more than from Brinkley School, the last day of
school.
Q. That was on what day, if you remember?
A. June 31st.
Q. June 31st or May 31st?
A. May 31st.
Q. And that was from Brinkley School?
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1 0 4 5 .
(Adams - Direct)
A. From Brinkley school.
Q. Were you in any other demonstration?
A. One more, the day after - I mean, June 1st.
Q. On both occasions were you arrested?
A. I was arrested.
Q. Were you served with a subpoena to appear here?
A, Yes, I was.
Q. Where were you served?
A. On my job, at Manhattan Restaurant.
Q. What happened when you were served?
A. Lady, after they served it, she said I was fired.
Q. Do you know why you were fired?
WATKINS:
May it please the Court, he
fired because he was subpoenaed as a
some lady said something to him. We
is now
witness
contend
saying he was
by plaintiff and
that*s not relevant,
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, this is very relevant. It goes to the
policy here in Mississippi and really the attitude here in
Mississippi. This witness was sent back to this woman to
ascertain why he was fired, and I think it is very relevant
to the main issue of our suit, the essence of it.
BY THE COURT:
I donTt see how the defendants in this case could be
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1046 .
(Adams - Direct)
charged with the attitudes of some individual citizen or their
activities, I sustain the objection, I can*t regard his tes
timony as being a demonstration at this YMCA. That»s no
demonstration, and X don*t so regard it,
MRS. MORRIS:
X offer it as a proffer under rule 43(c), - the
witness would testify that he was fired from his job and when
he inquired as to why his employer told him that she didnft
want anybody associated with the NAACP working for her.
v \
BY THE COURT:
All right.
MRS. MORRIS:
I have no further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. NICHOLS:
Q. Now did anyone tell you to go to the YMCA the day you
went there?
A. No.
Q. How did you make up your mind to go to the YMCA?
A, I just - a group in a work shop, a group of children
wanted to go and I wanted to go also.
Q. Who went with you?
A. Three other boys.
Q, What were their names?
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1047 .
said
it?
went
(Adams - Cross)
A. I can’t recall their names.
Q. Was Charles E. Ross with you?
A. Yes, that was one.
Q. Was Ronnie Scott with you?
A. That was one.
Q. Was Julian L. McLaren with you?
A. r think so.
Q. And that was on the 19th day of July, I believe you
A. That ’ s right.
Q. And it was about 4:15 or 4:30 in the afternoon, wasn’t
A. It was about that, not to be exact.
Q. Where had you been just before that? i
A. Where had 1 been? Repeat the question please.
Q. Where had you been just before you went to the YMCA?
A. At a Church.
Q. At a Church?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What church was it?
A. Pratt Memorial.
Q. Had you been to the Masonic Temple just before you
out there?
A. No
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(Adams - Cross)
Q. How did you get to the YMCA?
A. It was a boy that taken us out there.
Q. A boy took you out there?
BY THE COURT;
Please speak a little more distinctly. r can’t hear
you very well.
THE WITNESS:
A. It was a young man that taken us out there.
MR. NICHOLS:
____________________ ________ _________________ 1 0 4 8 .
Q. How did he take you out there?
A. In a car.
Q. You remember what kind of car it was? Was it a
Valiant automobile?
A. Not to be exact.
Q. You don’t remember?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. Now did you have a membership card in the YMCA at the
time you went there?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it not true that that membership card had been
expired by some four months at the time you went there?
A. It had been expired a little bit before school was
out.
Q. And school was out when?
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1049.
(Adams - Cross)
A. June 3 Lst, I mean May 31st.
Q. And your card was expired or out at the time school
got out?
A. Yes.
Q. So if you went there two months later and you didn’t
have a card, a Y card at that time, did you?
A. I got a new card from our Y on Farish Street.
Q. At the time you went to the YMCA was your membership
card expired or not?
A. No, it wasn’t expired.
Q. Tt was not. How about Ronnie Scott, do you know
whether his card was expired at the time you went there?
A. No, I don’t.
BY THE COURT:
I understood that the defendant objected to going
into this testimony and I sustained the objection.
MR. NICHOLS:
I beg your pardon. I didn’t understand that you had
sustained it.
BY THE COURT:
Yes, I said I didn’t see the relevancy of any of
their testimony.
MR. NICHOLS:
I beg your pardon.
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1050
MR. BELL:
(Adams - Cross)
As with all these witnesses, Your Honor, the defense
seems to be prepared on all of these arrest records and are
able to cross examine and bring out facts that we didn’t know
about these witnesses ourselves.
BY THE COURT;
That’s the reason we come to court. We often find
out things in Court, you know, but you had the facilities of
discovery available to you and if you had run it down you could
have found out everything you wanted to know.
MRS. MORRIS:
For my information, would you tell me what is the
status of this witness’s testimony?
BY THE COURT:
I have ruled and I do rule that his testimony about
going to the YMCA was not relevant to any issue in the case,
and as I thought you understood by what you said there r was
treating it as a proffer.
MRS. MORRIS:
That’s what I wanted to know.
MR. BELL:
No further questions of this witness.
BY THE COURT:
All right. VTe will take a ten minute recess.
(Witness excused)._________
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1051 .
(Ludden - Direct)
WILLIE LUDDEN
having first been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MORRIS;
Q. State your name please.
A. Willie Ludden.
Q. Where do you live, Mr. Ludden?
A. 3264 Cushman Circle, Atlanta, Georgia.
Q. Where are you employed?
A. I am employed by the National Association for the
Advancement of Colored People.
Q. In what capacity?
A. Youth Field Secretary for Southeast Region, NAACP.
Q. And the Southeast Region includes Mississippi.
A. Mississippi, yes.
Q. Were you in Mississippi during last summer, the
summer of ’63?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you participate in any demonstrations?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you participate in the one on May 31st, 1963?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened then?
A. On May 31st, 1963, I met at the Farish Street Baptist
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1052 .
(Ludden - Direct)
Church on Farish Street. At this church there were several
hundred students also. During the meeting several persons made
statements and of course after this we filed out of the church
in a column of two and proceeded down Farish Street eastward
toward in the general direction of Capitol Street in route to
the City Hall.
Q. Why were you going to the City Hall?
A. We were going to the City Hall to protest the previous
discriminatory practices and of course police brutalities that
occurred in the previous demonstration.
Q. Xn what formation were you proceeding down the street?
A. We were in a column of two walking near the curb,
very close to the curb, and spaced approximately five yards
apart.
Q. Now had any instructions been given to the group
before they left?
A. Yes, there were instructions given. Of course all
of the students were searched and of course they were asked to
submit any items that could have been used or could have been
considered as weapons, and of course after this they were asked
to march peacefully or walk peacefully near the curb in columns
of two’s approximately five yards apart. They were to talk to
no one and not to break file.
Q. Now were there any policemen in the area?
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(Ludden - Direct)
A. Yes, there were.
Q. Where were they?
A. At the beginning of the meeting there were several
who rode eastward and westward on motorcycles patrolling the
area in front of the church and of course there were some
several blocks down at each end of Farish Street, and they
set up some type of barricade there. Later after leaving the
church we found that there were several hundred policemen
gathered approximately a block and a half or two blocks on
Farish Street east of the church.
Q. How long did the procession, - or how far did the
procession get?
A. Less than two blocks, approximately a block and a
half from the church.
Q. In what part of the group were you?
A. I was in front of the group.
Q. What happened when you reached the police?
A. I was stopped by a captain. I don’t recall his name.
I was stopped and of course I was approached approximately five
yards forward from the remainder of the police and I was asked
if I had a permit to parade. And of course I informed the
officer that I was not parading and of course that I had no
such permit. However, approximately three to five days prior
to this incident Mr. Evers, Medger Evers, had tried to secure
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1054 .
(Ludden - Direct)
a permit from -—
MR. TRAVIS:
Your Honor, we object unless he has personal knowledge
of this now.
THE COURT:
I assume that he does. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS:
(Continuing) I told him that Mr. Evers had tried to
secure a permit from the City and of course he was unable to
do so, and upon this he said, you would either have to turn
around and go back from where you came or you will all be
arrested. And of course I told him that we had no intention
of going back; that we had a destination in mind which was the
City Hall, and if he would please excuse me we would like to
continue.
Upon this he did move to the side and we proceeded,
and of course when we reached the human barricade of policemen
I asked them if they would please excuse me, that I would like
to pass through, and of course they did, the first rank or the
first three or four ranks opened and I was able to enter — I
was permitted to enter. And of course once I had gotten
within the ranks some policeman made the statement, "Where does
this negro think heTs going" and of course I was struck by a
club and of course I was converged upon by several policemen.
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(Ludden - Direct)
And of course I was knocked to the ground and dragged and of
course kicked. I was kicked several times and then thrown into
a truck and taken to the fairgrounds.
Q, How long were you at the fairgrounds?
A. I was at the fairgrounds approximately an hour and
fifteen minutes. During this time I was made to stand away
from the remainder of the group in the center and I was allowed
to talk to no one. I was approached several times by officers
at the fairgrounds asking me to persuade these students to
stop singing and I told them that I didn^t have the power to
do this and even if I did I was not sure that I could stop
them from singing. I wouldn*t want to stop them from singing.
So he approached me approximately fifteen minutes later and
of course I asked him if I could see a doctor and of course he
told me no, he wasn^t going to do anything for me as long as
those students were singing. So after this he came again a
few minutes later and he asked me if I was sure that I wouldn*t
make them stop singing, and I told him l,No, I would not.”
He motioned for two plain clothes men to come up, who later
identified themselves as marshals or something, and showed some
badges, and of course they took me down to the city jail. They
booked me there. I requested medical attention and of course
1 was denied this, and I was also denied the right to call a
__________________ ___________ ____________ __________________________________1055 .
lawyer I was then placed in a cell, a cell alone there
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1056 .
(Ludden - Direct)
Q. Were you released that same night?
A. Yes, I was.
There was another fellow inside of the cell next to
mine who heard me talking and of course when the lawyer came
down to get him to release him from jail he told the lawyer I
was there without medical attention and the lawyer proceeded to
get me out of jail.
Q. As far as you know, was the May 31st procession
o rde rly?
A. Yes, it was very orderly until of course the police
started swinging their clubs, and of course making personal
contact, physical contact, with the students and of course
this started some confusion, but it was because of the fact
that they had been converged on by police officers.
Q. Now did you participate in any picketing during that
period?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was it?
A. It was in the general vicinity of Woolworth^s store.
Q. Were you near any other of the plaintiffs?
A. Yes, I was near Mrs. Ellison,
Q. Now did you witness any other demonstrations during
the summer?
A. Yes, I did.
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1057 .
(Ludden - Direct)
Q. Can you tell me which ones?
A. I witnessed the one on June 13th and June 14th, I
believe.
Q. What happened after that?
A. On the 13th?
Q. Yes.
A. There were approximately ninety or a hundred students
who walked out of the Masonic Temple on Lynch Street and pro
ceeded eastwardly on Lynch Street, and they were carrying
American flags. They walked approximately two blocks before
they were stopped by a barricade of policemen and of course
the policemen converged upon them, swinging their clubs, and
arrested the group.
Q. Where were they walking?
A. They were walking on Lynch Street.
Q. Are you sure this was on the 13th, or was it the
12th? How near was it after Evers was murdered?
A. It was only a few hours after that - I can’t say.
Q. It would be June 12th then wouldn’t it?
A. 12th, that’s right. June 12th. On the 13th the
group left the church - I am not clear on the street - and
proceeded up Rose Street in the general vicinity of Jackson
and of course they were closed in on by police from the front
and the rear
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I 058
(Ludden - Direct)
Q. How many policemen were in the area?
A. There was anywhere from one hundred to two hundred
policemen.
Q. Where were they with regard to Rose Street?
A. Approximately two blocks or two and a half blocks
from Lynch Street on Rose Street headed northward, and of
course policemen came from the front and from the rear, and
of course they arrested many people who were just spectators
who had not taken part in the walk at all.
Q. Were policemen off the street and on private property
also ?
A. Yes, there were several who went on to the porches
of people who were watching and of course some of the people
on the porches were beaten, and I can recall Mr. John Salters
being knocked from a porch and he was hit in the head several
times by one policeman.
Q. What was the conduct of the people in the procession?
A. They were very peaceful. They were marching orderly,
walking orderly until of course they were converged upon and
of course some of them dispersed and others remained walking
peacefully.
Q. You were in and out of the Masonic Temple a number
of times during that period?
A. Yes, I was.
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1059 .
(Ludden - Direct)
Q. Did you notice policemen in the area at any time?
A. Yes, there were policemen usually in the area from
approximately 7:00 AM in the morning throughout the day. Some
of them were stationed there in cars and at one time they
brought chairs out and of course they put up house there,
so to speak, in front of the Masonic Temple.
Q. How long were you in Jackson during the year?
A. I was in Jackson approximately two and a half months.
Q. Now in regard to these demonstrations, did you have
occasion to talk to the persons prior to their going out on
some occasions?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Were they given any instructions as to conduct?
A. Yes, they were given instructions. Most of all they
were asked to be peaceful, not to talk to anyone during the
course of their walk. They were asked not to retaliate in
any way when converged upon by others. They were asked not
to carry any weapon or anything that could be considered a
weapon. And of course they were asked if they had permission
from anyone to go, whether they were going voluntarily or how
they were going.
Q. Did you attend mass meetings during this period?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you know whether other groups were a part of those
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1060
(Ludden - Direct)
mass meetings?
A. Yes, CORE was a part, and SNICK, and there were
church groups and other civic and social organizations.
Q. During this demonstration on Rose Street, do you
recall seeing any other activity by the police?
A. Yes, I recall seeing - and this not only occurred
on this particular date but I recall seeing them take the
American flags that the youths were carrying and of course
they were torn up and many of them were hit with the flag,
and they were thrown most of them to the ground.
Q. What happened on the 12th?
A. On the 12th also this happened.
MRS. MORRIS:
That’s all I have.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR.
months
was in
assign
TRAVIS:
Q. You say that you were in Jackson for two and a half
during these demonstrations?
A. I did not say during the demonstrations. I said I
Jackson two and a half months during the summer.
Q. Was this during the period of these demonstrations?
A. Some of that time, yes.
Q. What was your function? You are not normally
ed to Jackson, are you?
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1 0 6 1 .
(Ludden-Cro s s )
A. I cover six states and Mississippi is one of those
six states. Jackson is, of course, a city within the State of
Mississippi.
Q. Why was it necessary for you to spend two and a half
months in Jackson?
A. This is part of my job. My job is to organize, to
help organize and to re-organize College Chapter Youth Councils
and also to coordinate and direct youth activities.
Q. I take it from what you have just said it was part
of your duty to organize these chapters, as you call them,
that you had here in Jackson to demonstrate.
A. Did I organize them to demonstrate?
Q. You told your attorney that you told them how to
demonstrate and what to do, and Z am just asking you if you
organized them to demonstrate.
A. r can’t recall telling the Attorney. I mentioned
the things we would not do. We would not retaliate violently
in any way. We would be peaceful.
Q. I know you told them what you would not do. Z am
asking you now if you would tell me what you told them to do.
A. Zf Z would tell you what Z told them to do?
Q. Right.
A. The same thing Z told counsel. Z will repeat it,
howeve r We told them to walk peacefully, quietly, not to talk,
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1062
(Ludden — Cross)
not to retaliate when converged vipon by the opposition. We
asked them when walking on the sidewalk to walk as close as
possible to the curb and of course we asked them above all to
be peaceful.
Q. Now then I take it that you were in charge of
organizing these demonstrations.
A. Well, letrs put it this way. There was a committee
composed of different organizations and of course these
committees made plans, they made their plans for the various
activities and of course they took these activities back to the
general body for approval or disapproval. Of course if the
group disapproved them the activities did not continue. If
the group approved them, they did continue.
Q. You are a national officer of the NAACP are you not?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. A national representative?
A. Yes, I am,
Q. And when you went before this committee, as you call
it, you were consenting for the NAACP to do whatever this
committee wanted to do, is that the way I understand it?
A. We are an organization for the people and by the
people. It is a democratic organization and we usually work
with people on the local level. We can not do anything that
the people on the local level would not approve. We have to
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1063 .
(Ludden - Cross)
have the approval of these people.
Q. And when you say "these people" you mean your NAACP
people locally?
A. I mean - yes. Yes.
Q. According to your charter the National organization
sets the policy and approves all policies of local chapters,
don’t they?
A. L didn’t umie rstand you.
Q. I say you are familiar with the constitution of you
organization, are you not? The National constitution?
A. Yes, r am.
Q. Do you know what it provides f'o r so far as b ranches
and local affiliates iare concerned?
A. Yes.
Q. As to control by the national b ody?
A. Let me - -
Q. Just answer my question. Are you familiar with it?
A. Yes.
MR. BELL;
May he expl.ain his answer to the question, Your H on
BY THE COURT;
Q. Do you have an explanation you want to make?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right, you can make it.
1064 .
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(Ludden - Cross)
A. We are, in fact Z explained it in ray duties, - we
are responsible to help organize and to conduct the activities
in a local community, not to go there and to do it all our
selves, alone, or use the power of the national office to do
it. We do it with the consent of the local people, and this
is why we can not do these things without the consent of the
local people.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Then I take it you are not familiar with article 7
of your constitution.
A. Right off hand I can*t say that I am not familiar
with it and I can’t say that I am familiar with it.
Q. Can you identify Exhibit 1 to the witness Hurley*s
testimony?
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. Constitution of the national.
Q. Would you refresh your memory by examining 7?
Now would you care to further explain your answer?
A. Yes, I would go further, but it goes back to what I
said a few minutes ago. We can not go into a local community
to create nor organize a chapter unless it is the desire of
the community. We can use our power or authority to do this
if the community wishes us to but we can not do it providing
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1065
(Ludden - Cross)
the local community does not wish it. We have the constitution
set up for use in college divisions as well as for the branches.
They are to operate, once organized, within the aims and objec
tives or the scope of NAACP policies which are provided through
the constitution. Now we are to enforce these and of course
as long as the activities come within the realm of the consti
tution .
Q. Now if you will get to my answer. You were here to
enforce the constitution of the NAACP insofar as the local
affiliates were concerned, were you not? Was that not your
function?
A. Yes.
Q. So you were operating as a representative of the
national body for that, is that correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Now this committee you were speaking of, who was
chairman of that committee, steering committee I believe you
referred to?
A. No, r didn't refer to it as a steering committee.
Q. Well, the committee that you referred to, who was
the chairman?
A. There was no one
a different chairman. Now
chairman. At each meeting there was
r can't recall off-hand who chaired
each meeting
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1066 .
(Ludden - Cross)
Q. I am not speaking of the mass meetings. I am speaking
of this committee you said organized and approved all policy
and everything like that.
A. That*s the same committee I am speaking of.
Q. Did you call it a strategy committee?
A. I said a committee of persons representing different
organizations came together for the purpose of drawing up
plans for various activities.
Q. A coordinating or strategy committee.
A. You can call it that if you wish.
Q. What would you call it?
MR. BELL:
I would like before the witness answers this to enter
an objection to this whole line of questioning. Tt is com
pletely removed from the pleadings of the complaint alleging
that the defendants are preventing the plaintiff from peacefully
protesting. The answer of defendants merely goes down and
denies those allegations. There are no affirmative allegations
in that answer that any of the activities of the plaintiffs
were wrong or illegal. They merely denied that they were inter
fering with it. Lf any place is the proper place to plead surpri
this is it because all of this is aimed at trying to show, I
imagine, that there was something wrong about these meetings.
They want to know names of people, who met where. There is no
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1067 .
(Ludden - Cross)
preparation in the pleadings for this type of question at all.
Before I could understand when they would question witnesses
who testified about their arrest after attempting to make pro
test, that they wanted to make sure that they were telling the
truth. They were going back over their story detail by detail.
This individual has indicated participation in protests and
also being present at various meetings and having given in
structions, but they are going further and trying to get a lot
of details on how does this work, the constitution, and all of
that, and there is no foundation for it.
MR. TRAVIS:
I submit that there is ample foundation in the
questions that were asked this witness on direct testimony
and these exhibits that these plaintiffs have already placed
in the record.
THE COURT:
I will overrule the objection. Go ahead.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Did you tell me who the chairman was of this commit
tee?
A. I told you there were different chairman and at each
meeting there was another new chairman.
Q. Who was chairman on the 31st of May?
A. I can not recall.
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(Ludden - Cross)
Q. Was J ohn Salter known to you at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. During the two and a half months?
A. Yes, I knew him.
Q. And what was your relation to him or with him?
A. I had no relation, no personal relation with him. Mr.
Salter was advisor to the North Jackson Youth Council.
Q. Well then you did have an official relationship with
_______________________________________________________________________________ 1 0 6 8 .
him?
A. O.k., official.
Q. That’s what I am asking. Tell us about your official
relation with him.
A. Let’s say this. Mr. Salters responsibility was to
advise wisely the North Jackson Youth Council and of course T,
being over the Youth Council or in charge of the national
status of the youth council, constantly talked to Mr. Salter
according to programming, etc.
Q. Now your constitution for affiliates and local
chapters provides that no chapter shall operate beyond the
approval of any college that it is located in, is that correct?
A. This is true, yes.
Q. That’s the wording of your constitution.
A. Yes.
Q. So John Salter then was a representative of Tougaloo
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1 0 6 9 .
(Ludden - Cross)
College. He was a faculty member of Tougaloo College.
A. That t s right.
Q. He was representing Tougaloo College and the faculty
of Tougaloo College on your branch of your affiliate, is that
correct?
A. No, he was not. The constitution, if you read it
carefully, you can also recall that an advisor can be any adult
who holds membership with our association and who is recommended
by the branch, the board of the branch, and this is how Mr.
Salter became advisor to the North Jackson Youth Council. He
wasn't actually representing the North Jackson Youth Council
as a college faculty member.
Q. Well he was known to you as a faculty member of
Tougaloo College.
A. He was a faculty member of Tougaloo College.
Q. Now in regard to these mass meetings you attended,
you did attend a number of these mass meetings in your official
capacity, did you not?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. How many would you say you attended during these two
and a half months you were in Jackson?
A. Numerically 1 could not say.
Q. A. large number of them?
A. Yes, T would say a great deal, yes.
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1070 .
(Ludden - Cross)
Q. Did you participate as an active speaker in these
meetings?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Let me ask you if you attended a meeting on May 21st,
1963, at the A.M.E. Church at 925 ¥est Pearl Street, Jackson,
Mississippi?
A. r can not say.
Q. Do you remember a meeting along about that time
in which you were introduced by the field secretary of the
NAACP Medger Evers and you spoke at this meeting?
A. I can not recall that one. I was introduced by
several persons at several times, and I can not recall right
off hand.
Q. Do you recall whether or not Rev. Salter was at this
meeting?
A. No, I can’t.
Q. Could you tell us whether or not you encouraged the
people present at this meeting to do whatever was necessary to
accomplish their goals, to accomplish them by any means?
A. I can’t remember that either.
Q. You are not telling us that you didn’t say that?
A. No, I am saying that I can not remember it.
Q. All right. Can you tell us whether or not at this
same meeting Rev. Salter was introduced as a faculty member of
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1071
Tougaloo
A.
Q.
A.
(Ludden - Cross)
College and was there representing Tougaloo
I can not remember.
You have a short memory on that.
I can’t say that my memory is so short but
College?
T don * t
remember it.
MR. BELL:
Your Honor, we are going kind of far afield again.
I don’t know what the concern about Tougaloo College is. In
general counsel for defendants seem to be trying the injunction
suit over here in Federal Court and the issues are certainly
different. I want to object to it. I don’t see the relevancy
of all of this.
MR. TRAVIS:
I am just trying to find out what his activities in
these meetings consists of.
THE COURT:
Well go on, and make your examination as short as
po s sible.
MR. TRAVIS:
All right, sir.
Q. Did you attend another mass meeting on May 28th
about 7:30 at this same church?
A. I don’t recall that.
Q. Do you recall making any - had you been to Berlin?
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(Ludden - Cross)
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Did you make any statements in that meeting about
having been to Berlin and comparing Berlin to Jackson?
A. I can’t recall.
Q. But you don’t tell us that you didn’t?
A. I said I can’t recall.
Q. Did you attend the meeting on May 31st, and it is not
the same meeting we are talking about, that occurred after the
demonstration in the street?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Let me ask you at that meeting if you were not intro-
duced in your official capacity?
A. Yes, 1 was.
Q. Do you recall what you said at that meeting to the
assembled group?
A. No, I can not.
Q. Would you tell us whether or not you have made this
statement or a statement similar to this: If you don’t join
those students who are fighting your battles in the street,
then I think you are a coward. Did you make that statement?
A. I can not recall.
Q. Would you tell us that you did or did not make it?
A. I said I can not recall.
Q. Then you don’t admit or deny it?
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(Ludden - Cross)
A. I simply said that I can not recall whether I made the
statement or not.
Q. Now, in regard to the episode that you referred to on
the street on May 31st, you say that you left this church, 1
believe, about what time in the afternoon?
A. Specifically I can't say. It was between 3:00 and
5:00 o’clock.
Q. All right, now what had occurred in this church before
you left it?
A. Several persons talked at random to the people
gathered there and of course there were some religious sessions
held; and upon entering the church all persons were asked to
submit any item or any weapon of course they had, anything they
had that could be considered a weapon.
Q. You got a good many knives and other weapons of that
type, didn’t you?
A. I wasn’t in charge of this.
Q. You weren’t in charge of the knives?
A. No, I wasn’t in charge of the operation, the collec
tion of these items.
Q. Continue if you would and tell us what transpired,
who spoke, and so on.
A. There were several individuals that talked but I can’t
recall what was said. One of those individuals was Dave Dennis
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(Ludden - Cross)
Q. Who is Dave Dennis?
A. He»s field secretary for CORE. Rev. Whitney, I believt
He»s minister at this church, pastor of this church, I believe.
Of course there were one or two other individuals I can’t re
call .
Q. Well you talked to them, didn’t you?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you tell them at this meeting?
A. Well, I lead the religious service. E led the prayer
and a couple of songs. I can’t recall the name of the songs
now.
Q. There was a large group of persons in this church at
this time, was there not?
A. Yes.
Q. And they were encouraged by you and the others in
charge to do what?
A. Well I guess you would say prayer is encouraging them
to do something, I think I encouraged them to pray. What the
others encouraged them to do I don’t know, or whether they
encouraged them I can’t say. I encouraged them to pray.
Q. Well you were there while this went on, weren’t you?
A. Yes, I was there.
Q. And they were encouraged to do more than just pray
because they took some other action a few minutes later, didn’t
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(Ludd en - Cross)
they?
A. I said I can't recall what the other people said. I
can only recall what I said.
Q. Well, in any event, you were there in your official
capacity?
A. Yes.
Q. They did go into the street and sidewalks after that,
did they not?
A. They went onto the sidewalks. Any who went on the
street were forced there either by policemen or some other
person.
Q.
A.
Q.
were you
church?
Who told them to go out the church doors?
I can't recall who asked them to.
I thought you - when you were leading this prayer
in the front of the church or in the back of the
A. I was in front of the church.
Q. At the front of the church, well how did you get at
the head of the group that left the church then. What arrange
ments - was some special arrangement made so that you could
lead them out?
A. Special arrangements - what ---
Q. Did you leave the platform and go to the rear of the
church before the services were, - before this mass meeting was
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(Ludden - Cross)
concluded?
A. I can’t recall that anyone went out of the rear of
the church.
Q. Let me ask you this. How did you come to lead this
particular procession?
A. Well I happened to be the first person to walk out of
the side door.
Q. That was just a coincidence?
A. L guess you can call it that.
Q. Now you say that an effort had been made to obtain
a permit to parade on this occasion and it had been refused?
A. Yes.
Q. So you knew then that - you knew this. You knew that
a permit to parade had been denied.
A. Yes, T did.
Q. And you did then go into the streets with this parade
and the sidewalks.
A. We were not parading.
Q. Why did you feel it was necessary to ask for a permit
to parade when you werenTt parading?
A. We wanted to parade at one time but at this particular
time we were not parading. We were merely walking down the
sidewalk.
Q. Well you were in a formation, weren’t you?
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(Ludden - Cross)
A. Yes, we were.
Q. And you had a common purpose, didn*t you?
A. We had what?
Q. You had a common purpose.
MR. BELL:
Your Honor, we object. He is now going into whatever
his idea of legal terminology of parade is and trying to get
the witness to go along with him. He has already testified as
to what he thought he was doing and why.
THE COURT:
Well, hefs on cross examination. Overruled.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. 1 believe you told us you encouraged all of these
people to go some place?
A. No, Z didnft tell you that.
Q. Well where were you going? T thought you had already
testified about that.
A. I was in route to city hall and of course where the
others behind me were in route I can not say. 1 assume they
were going to the same place. They were going in the general
direction.
this
done
Q. Now you
to go to the
Tt is true
said encouragement
City Hall, and you
that everybody had
was given the group on
said how it was to be
instructions in this group
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(Ludden - Cross)
where they were going, is it not, or what is the truth of the
matter?
A. The group had been asked to walk close to the sidewalk
approximately five yards apart and not to retaliate in any way
with any violence or any force in case they were converged upon.
Q. Now I would appreciate it if you would answer my
question as to whether or not you had a common purpose all of
you going to the City Hall?
A. Well r can not speak for the other three or four
hundred people. I can not say what was on their minds, but I
can say that I was in route to City Hall.
Q. Can you tell us whether or not it was your understand
ing that that was where this parade or march was to go?
A. Yes.
Q. Now as you approached the police line, you were at
the head of this formation, were you not?
A. I was in front, yes.
Q. And they were strung out quite a distance behind you,
in formation, as you say two by two.
A. I didn’t look back. I don’t know.
Q. So you were stopped?
A. Yes, I was stopped.
Q. Now let’s go into exactly the manner in which you were
_________________________________________________________________________________ 1078
stopped. There was a police officer there that had a bullhorn
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(Ludden - Cross)
did he not?
A. He had a bullhorn but he did not use it to request
that r stop. As a matter of fact he was only a few feet away
from me when he asked me to stop.
Q. Who was this officer?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. What was his rank?
A. He was a captain.
Q. Did he have a bullhorn in his hands?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. He recognized you, didn’t he?
A. I don’t know. He never referred to me by my name.
Q. He knew you were in charge of the formation or
addressed you in such a manner that would lead you to think
he thought you were in charge of the formation, did he not?
A. I can not say that either. He merely asked me to
stop, and I imagine he would have asked anyone, the first
person he got to, to stop. I happened to be the first person
that approached him.
Q. I thought you told your counsel a minute ago when you
were talking to her that he asked you on several occasions to
encourage the people to disperse.
A. He asked me once to turn around and go back where I
had come from or he would arrest the whole group.
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1080
(Ludden - Cross)
Q. Didn’t you tell your counsel that he asked you to
help him or do something about getting the crowd to disperse?
A. This was not during the walk. This was after we had
been arrested and placed in the fairgrounds that this occurred.
Q. Let me ask you this. Did he ask whether or not any
body in your group had a permit to parade?
A. I don’t know. After I proceeded through the police
men that’s all I remember for a while. Things happened so
fast. I donTt know whether he talked to anyone else or not.
I can’t be sure.
Q. Did he ask you to disperse over the bullhorn, the
whole group?
A. I can’t recall his ever using it. I don’t recall.
Q. You don’t know whether these people behind you were
on the sidewalk or in the street or just where they were, do
you?
A. Let me say this. They came out of the church on the
sidewalk. What happened then L can not say.
Q. And if they went in the street you don’t know when
they went in the street because I believe you said you didn’t
look back.
A. After I had been - let me say this. After I had
been taken into the wagon, of course it was visible to me from
the wagon, from the opening of the truck, as to what was taking
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1081 .
(Ludden - Cross)
place out on the outside then.
Q. At that time the streets were full, were they not,
of people?
A. There were many of them - most of them were still on
the sidewalk, and I recall seeing some of them being in the
street and of course forced into the street by policemen.
Q. What was the - would you describe this as a wild,
unruly group?
A. r think that most of the disturbance was caused by
the police. They seemed to be the group that was more dis
organized than the students themselves.
THE COURT:
Q.
striking
A.
beat me.
does this
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Tell me this, what was the occasion for the officer
you?
Sir, L haven’t been able to recall yet as to why they
The only thing I remember, T heard a voice, Where
negro think he is going.
Where what?
Where does this negro think he is going.
Talking to you?
Yes, sir, I suppose so, and of course he hit me
then.
Q. What did you say?
A. I didn’t say anything. As a matter of fact I didn’t
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1082 .
(Ludden - Cross)
have time to say anything. I was converged upon by several
officers at that time and they were all swinging and --
Q. Who hit you?
A. There were several. I was knocked to the ground and
I was dragged out of the group by two policemen and while in
the rear 1 was struck while on the ground several times.
Q. Why was that?
A. I don’t know, sir. I don’t know. I did not retaliate
a n d--
Q. Are you telling me that you didn’t do and didn’t say
anything other than just what you have stated which caused
someone to strike you?
A. No, sir, I did not:. No, sir, I did not.
MR. TRAVTS:
Q. Did you resist in any way when plac ed under arrest?
A. No, I did not. I had in my hand an Arne rican flag
and of course this flag was taken from my hand and of course it
was to rn up.
Q. Who took it from your hand?
A. One of the police officers.
Q. Do you know how many flags were in that particular
demonstration?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Did everybody have flags?
A. I don’t know
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1083 .
(Ludden - Cross)
THE COURT:
Q. What size flag was it?
A. It was approximately, - the one T had was approximately
twelve by fourteen inches - twelve by sixteen.
Q. On a stick?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long a stick?
A. r guess about two feet, 24 inches.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. As a matter of fact, what you tried to do was to
walk through these police, did you not, after they stopped
you? You refused to stop?
A. You say walk through the policemen?
Q. That’s right, - you refused to stop.
A. I did stop when I was asked to stop
Q. Then you started up again, moving forward.
A. After the policeman moved to the side, - I asked him
if he would please excuse me, and of course he moved to the
side and I proceeded,once I had reached the first rank of the
policemen, I asked this policeman the same thing, the one that
was directly in front of me and of course he moved to the side
and this followed two or three ranks back.
Q. What you are telling the court is that the police
ranks divided and let you walk into them, is that right?
1084 .
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(Ludden - Cross)
A. That is true.
Q. There was a solid line across the street and you
walked up and they moved apart and let you go through?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the other occasion that you were arrested on?
A. r think it was the 28th, I am not sure.
Q. Could it have been the 29th?
A. 29 th.
Q. You were charged with obstructing the sidewalk on that
occasion, weren’t you?
A. I was.
THE COURT;
VThat was the date of this one - 29th of what?
MR. TRAVIS:
May, Your Honor, pardon me.
Q. Were you tried in municipal court of the City of
Jackson on that charge?
A. We had a preliminary hearing.
Q. I don’t want to argue with you but we don’t have
preliminary hearings on misdemeanors.
A. Well I guess w e --
Q. Did you have a hearing?
A. Yes.
25 Q. What was the outcome of that hearing?
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(Ludden - Cross)
A. I can’t recall. I think it is still in Court. I
don’t know what was the outcome.
Q. You don’t know whether the charge against you was
dismissed by the court or whether you were convicted by the
court?
A. No, I can’t recall.
Q. You mean you went in court and had a trial and don’t
know what the results of it were?
A. T have been in many courts and on many trials and r
donJt remember this occasion.
Q. You mean you as an individual have been a defen
dant in many cases?
MR. BELL:
Let me suggest, Your Honor -
¥e hope to show these records as the judiciary
proceedings and L think it is probably the best evidence.
MR. TRAVIS:
Your Honor, T agree with that, but I am simply
trying to check this witness’s memory. He seems to have a very
convenient memory in one area and no memory in another area.
THE COURT:
He said he didn’t remember. Go to something else.
MR. TRAVIS:
Q. Now the other two occasions that you say you
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1086
(Ludden - Cross)
witnessed, that was June 12th, as I understand it?
A. June 13th.
Q. There were two of them June 12th or June 13th and
14th you said and I think your counsel came along and testi
fied that it was the 12th and you agreed with her, is that
right?
A. 13 th.
Q. Well what did you all finally decide?
A. 12th and 13th.
Q. 12th and 13th. All right. Let me ask you about
June the 12th, where was that?
A. That was on Lynch street.
Q. Lynch Street, - where did this group get together?
A. They left the Masonic Temple on Lynch Street. This
was where they left the building.
Q. We re you in charge of
togethe r and put them in the St
A. No, r was not.
Q. You were there?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. What these people did
did it not as a national office
A. Yes, it did •
Q. All right. Now, when
1087 .
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(Ludden - Gross)
where did they go in Lynch Street?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I am going to object to this. We have
been over the events of June 12th with every witness who testi
fied all during yesterday. I think it must be at least twelve
times. I think at this time we all agree that the group were
out in the street, how they proceeded and where the police were,
and where the police were standing. I don’t know what purpose
it serves to go over and over and over it.
MR. TRAVIS:
I agree with what she says but this is a national
offieer of the NAACP and it is my purpose to show that these
people went into the street with his full knowledge and con
sent and approval.
THE COURT;
All right, ask him about that, and then we will go to
something else.
MR. TRAVIS:
All right, sir.
Q. Now these people went into Lynch Street, did they not?
A. Yes.
Q. Into the middle of the street?
A. Yes.
Q. And that blocked traffic and caused a lot of traffic
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(Ludden - Cross)
congestion problems, didn’t it?
A. As I recall traffic had already been blocked by the
policemen who had assembled themselves at two different areas
of Lynch Street. There was no traffic in that vicinity.
Q. Now did you tell the people to go into the street?
A. No, I did not.
Q. They went into the streets, didn’t they, and they
stayed in the streets?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. And there is a wide sidewalk on both sides of Lynch
Street for people to walk on, is there not?
A. On one side.
Q. Why didn’t you encourage these people then to go onto
the sidewalk and make their procession in an orderly manner
rather than get out in the street?
A. I did not address the group at all that day.
Q. I did not understand you.
A. I did not address the group at all.
Q. Did you know the plan for this particular demonstra
tion?
A. No, I didn’t.
Q. You mean you were a national officer participating
in a demonstration and didn’t even know the plans for it?
A. L did not participate in the demonstration.
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1089.
(Ludden - Cross)
Q. You watched it?
A. I observed it.
Q. Why did you not
A. I do not partici
Q. Should I assume
testimony as to what you s
that day without going int
this ?
participate?
pate in all of our d
that you would give
aw on the 13th and y
o it that you have j
emonst rations.
the same type
our actions on
ust given about
A. Yes, sir.
MR. TRAVIS:
I apologize, Your Honor, for having taken so long
with this witness. Mr. McClendon has a few questions.
MR.
the
N ew
McCLENDON:
Q. I understand that you are a full time employee of
National Association for Advancement of Colored people, a
York corporation?
A. That * s right.
Q. What is your title with that corporation?
A. Youth Field Secretary for the Southeast Region.
Q. As such Youth Field Secretary where is your office?
A. I work out of the Regional Office in Atlanta,
Georgia.
Q. Are you in charge of the Atlanta office?
A. No, I am not.
1090
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(Ludden — Cross)
Q. How long have you been Field Secretary for the
Atlanta office?
A. Thirteen months.
Q. Ts Ruby Hurley your superior?
A. Not immediate superior.
Q. Who is in charge of the Atlanta office?
A. Letts say she is in charge of the Regional Office
and branches. My office is in the same building as Mrs.
Hurley»s. I am working out of her office.
Q. 1 see. You have quite a large office in Atlanta,
haven*t you?
A. Yes.
Q. How large an office?
A. We have three national officers working out of this
particular regional office, and of course we employ three full
time secretaries. And we have a local chapter operating out
of the same building. We have about eight offices there in
all.
Q. You say this corporation maintains an office in
Atlanta with eight full time employees?
A. No, I did not say that. 1 said we have eight office
rooms. We have three national officers there and of course we
have a local executive secretary for these officials.
Q. Do you want to tell the Court how many people work in
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1091 .
(Ludden - Cross)
that office of the national corporation or do you want me to
pull it out of you office by office?
MRS. MORRIS ••
Your Honor, 1 don*t see any relevancy in how many
employees work in a regional office, at Atlanta, Georgia.
THE COURT;
What is the relevancy of that?
MR. McCLENDON:
If the Court please, this is a national corporation
suing the State of Mississippi for admission to do business,
it is before the Court, and they have been doing business in
Mississippi for years, and we just want to show the size of
the corporation that*s operating.
THE COURT:
1 don* t see the relevancy of what you are asking him
about Atlanta, 1 sustain the objection.
MR. McCLENDON:
Q. You are a full time employee of this corporation?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. You are paid by the corporation?
A. Yes.
Q. Is Charles Amhurst a full time employee of the
corporation?
A. Yes
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1092 .
(Ludden - Cross)
Q. He is paid by the corporation?
A. Yes.
Q. I hand you here Exhibit 1 to the testimony of the
witness Evers and ask you if that is the constitution and by
laws of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored
People, a New York corporation?
A. Yes.
Q. I hand you here Exhibit P-2 of the testimony of Ruby
Hurley and ask you if that is the constitution and by-laws of
the local branches of this New York corporation?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. McCLENDON:
For the purpose of the record, the first Exhibit was
Exhibit 1 to the testimony of Ruby Hurley instead of the
witness Evers. I apologize for that error.
Q. Now looking at Exhibit P-2 would you tell the Court
whether or not the Mississippi office operates under the pro
visions of that constitution and by-laws?
A. Let me say this if I may.
Q. Would you answer my question?
THE COURT:
Answer it and then you can make any explanation you
want.
THE WITNESS:
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1093 .
(Ludden - Cross)
A. Well, I can’t say. Now may I proceed?
I work under, - I operate under a different constitu
tion. We have a constitution for the college and youth
division of the association and that constitution is different
from those of the branches.
THE COURT:
The constitution that you have been shown is not the
constitution of the New York Corporation?
THE WITNESS:
The blue one is but the white one for the branches
is not. We operate under the college and youth division
constitution. It is a different constitution altogether.
MR. McCLENDON:
Q. Do you have a copy of the constitution and by-laws
that you work under?
A. I think T have one in the back.
Q. This is the constitution and by-laws that the branches
operate under?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And so far as you know the Mississippi branch
operates under the provisions of this constitution?
A. Yes.
Q. So so far as you know the operation in Mississippi
is the same as other Southern states wherein you work?
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1094
(Ludden - Cross)
A. Yes.
Q. What were your duties with the New York corporation
prior to becoming field secretary?
A. T was not, — I was working voluntarily with the
association. I was State Youth Advisor for the State of Georgia
Q. That was as a voluntary worker, - prior to that you
received no pay?
A. That*s right.
Q. But since you became youth secretary some thirteen
months ago you have been a full time employee?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you make prior official visits to the State of
Mississippi? r mean by prior, visits prior to the time you
came here for a period of two and a half months?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you tell the Court when they were?
A. r donft recall the exact date. It was in the month
of April. T came here the first of April and of course I
stayed two or three days and then I left and went to other
parts of Mississippi.
Q. Did you come here in the year 1962?
A. No, I did not.
Q. You stated that you did not have a copy of the
college and youth division constitution and by-laws with you.
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1095 .
(Ludden - Cross)
Ls one available to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it in the court room?
A. It’s in the witness room in the rear.
Q. Could we see that?
A. Yes.
THE COURT:
We will take a recess
(Following the noon recess, the
witness Ludden continued).
until 1:30.
cross examination of the
MR. McCLENDON:
Q. Before the noon recess you were asked to bring the
constitution and by-laws of the college chapters of the
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.
Do you have that?
I will ask the Court please that these be marked for
identification so that we can have a chance to compare them
and we will determine later ----
THE COURT:
How many are there?
MR. McCLENDON:
Just two.
THE COURT:
All right, t h a t ’s D e f e n d a n t ’s Exhibit 8 and D e f e n d a n t ’
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1 0 9 6 .
(Ludden - Cross)
Exhibit 9 both for identification.
(Same was marked by the reporter as Defendants
Exhibit 8 and Defendants Exhibit 9, both for
identification).
MR. McCLENDON:
Q. Now since it has come out that you have more than the
one set of constitution and by-laws that were introduced at the
beginning of this hearing, r will ask you how many other
different sets of constitution and by-laws does this corpora
tion have?
A. None othe rs.
Q. You testified before the
Current was your immediate superio
A. No, r did not. I was as
immediate superior and I said "no“
Q. Ts Gloster Current your
A. No, he is not.
Q. Who is?
A. Mr. Laplois Ashford.
Q. Tell us if you will how
noon recess that Gloster
r, is that right?
ked if Mrs. Hurley was my
•
immediate superior?
many members this corporation
has.
A. Z can not give an accurate account for them since
many of the membership have not been offically tabulated. It
is somewhere between five hundred and six hundred thousand.
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1097 .
(Ludden - Cross)
Q. Do you have a list of those members?
A. No.
Q. Could you get such a list?
A. No.
Q. The constitution for the local chapter requires that
they keep a list out there. Do you have that available?
A. No.
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, L am going to object to this line of
questioning. I think it is totally irrelevant to the issues.
THE COURT:
What is the relevancy of the list?
MR. McCLENDON:
We just noted that was one of the requirements, Your
Honor, and we wanted to find out if he had one.
THE COURT;
I sustain the objection. Go ahead.
MR. MCCLENDON:
Q. How many full time employees does this corporation
have in its Lynch Street office?
A. Tn the Lynch Street office?
Q. Yes.
A. One, that is from the national office. They also
employ two secretaries
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(Ludden - Cross)
Q. And they are employed locally?
A. Yes.
Q. How many other full time employees do they have
stationed in Mississippi?
A. None other.
Q. Did you state before the noon recess that the Missis
sippi chapter and the Mississippi part of this corporation was
operated in the same manner as the other chapters in Alabama
and other neighboring states?
A. No, we do not operate in the State of Alabama.
Q. You do not operate in the State of Alabama?
A. No.
Q. Do you operate in the State of Louisiana?
A. Yes.
Q. Is the Mississippi chapter operated very similar to
that?
MRS. MORRIS:
r am going to object to this line of questioning.
The witness is a youth advisor. He works with the youth. He
is not an expert on the entire corporation. These questions
could have been more properly determined from someone who works
in this area. This is not his area.
T will let him answer if he knows. I donft know
THE COURT:
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(Ludden - Cross)
whether he knows or not. I understood this corporation did
business in 48 states.
MRS. MORRIS:
Forty nine.
THE COURT:
Forty nine states, - Alabama is the only one it
doesn’t do business in, is that right?
MRS. MORRrS:
That’s right.
THE COURT:
All right, go ahead.
THE WITNESS r
A. I have never been in the State of Louisiana and T
wouldnTt know.
MR. McCLENDON:
Tf the Court please, that was my next question, how
many states they operated in. I will take counsel’s statement
as to this speaking for the corporation, and that will be all
from this witness, that they do operate in forty nine states.
THE COURT:
All right. That’s in the record. That was stated at
the very start.
MR. McCLENDON:
I’m sorry I missed it
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1100 .
(Ludden - Redirect)
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Have you filed with the Justice Department or any
other bureau anything to do with this beating by the policeman?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. When was that ?
A. That was on the first of June.
Q. Have you ever to your knowledge run into a police
club ?
A. No, I have not.
THE COURT;
Q. Let me see if I understand this statement in the
record that the NAACP, the New York corporation, operates in
all of the fifty states except Alabama.
A. With the exception of Alabama, yes.
Q. In other words, it operates in Hawaii and Alaska and
Mississippi and every other state in the Union except Alabama?
A. Yes, sir.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Have you stated, I am not sure, Mr. Ludden, how a
youth advisor to a youth council is selected?
A. Yes, I did earlier.
Q. Is his selection on a local level?
A. Yes.
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1101 .
(King - Direct)
MRS. MORRIS:
I have no further questions.
(Witness excused).
Parties having testified can remain in.
REVEREND EDWIN KING
having first been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MORRIS:
Q. Give us your name please.
A. Reverend Edwin King.
Q. You are a plaintiff in this action, aren’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. Where do you reside? What is your address?
A. At Tougaloo College, Tougaloo, Mississippi.
Q. During the summer of 1963, with reference to
demonstrations, did you participate in any?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Would you tell us what they were?
A. I participated in one demonstration which was on
May 30th, I believe. It was on a Thursday. We were trying to
protest police brutalities and the whole system of segregation
A number of us met here in this building, since this was a
Federal building. We were both trying to make an appeal to
decent people in Jackson to protest what their police were
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1102 •
(King - Direct)
doing to high school students; also by coming to the Federal
building we felt we would at least be allowed to make our
statement. One of the members of our group was to make a
statement protesting conditions here in Jackson, an appeal
for a bi-racial committee. However, we were not allowed to
do this.
Q. How many were involved in this?
A. I don’t remember exactly. I would say less than
fifteen and more than ten.
Q. And it took place in front of the Post Office?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember how long you were out there?
A. We could not have been out more than a few seconds
before the police came towards us. One of the members of our
group, a negro minister, « T am not sure which one now - was
to lead in a prayer and read a scripture, and he wanted to make
a statement, as T said, appealing to the people of Jackson,
but he never got to the point of making the statement, because
the police came up.
Q. Do you remember how many policemen were in the area
on that day?
A. No r do not, exactly. There were, I would say, more
than a dozen, many more than that but 1 don’t remember exactly.
Q. Hi the immediate area?
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1103 .
(King - Direct)
A. I really wasn’t paying that much attention. They
began coming up. We had come out. The minister was trying to
lead in prayer. I bowed my head and tried to hear him. I have
an image of what happened - ten or twelve coming up. I seem to
think that there were more back around, standing around with
the crowd. There were a crowd of people standing around and
the police seemed to be standing with them.
Q. Were you arrested on that day?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Did you offer any resistance to policemen who arrested
you?
A. I had come out and the minister was leading in prayer.
The police came up, and I felt we were doing nothing wrong, and
I knelt in prayer on the steps of the post office and was
carried away, I assume under orders of the police.
Q. How long were you in jail?
A. I was in jail only five or six hours and was released
on bond. I think everyone else was in jail over night.
Q. Now did you participate in or see any other demon
strations?
A. I saw other demonstrations. I did not participate in
Q. Which ones did you see, as far as you can remember?
A. Well, as far as I can remember, I probably won’t be
any,
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(King - Direct)
sure of the exact dates on these; there may be records. Particu--
lar demonstrations I remember for particular reasons - I am
trying to think back to the week. I saw a demonstration on
Saturday after I had been arrested - it probably would have
been the first of June or maybe the second. I didn't see the
first demonstration on Farish Street. 1 did see one in West
Jackson. I remember this one because I can remember a lot of
small children were involved in this carrying American flags.
Q. Where was this one?
A. It left the Masonic Temple, perhaps a hundred people,
perhaps less, mostly high school students, junior high school
students and some younger, walking in pairs and carrying small
American flags.
Q. Do you remember where they were walking?
A. They were walking on the sidewalk. I think they had
originally hoped to be able to walk all the way to the City Hall
or even to stand above the concentration camp at the fair
grounds, where they had hoped to be able to sing freedom songs
and hymns to the several hundred children who had been arrested
the day before.
Q. How far did they get?
A. They only got a block or so before the police moved
in on them and then they began moving off of Lynch Street, I
think down Rose street or Pascagoula. It definitely wasn't a
______________________________________________________________________________ 1 1 0 4 .
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1105 .
(King - Direct)
white neighborhood because the streets werenU paved and there
were no sidewalks so they had moved back to a graveled dirty
road. It was a negro neighborhood but I don*t remember the
exact street. There they were stopped. Police came in
swinging their clubs at the children. That was the first
demonstration of any large number of people I saw.
Q. Do you remember what date that would have been?
A. That would have been Saturday, I think, June 1st.
It could have been May 31st or June 2nd, I don*t remember, but
that was in the first week of major demonstrations here in
J ackson.
Q. Where were you standing -—
A. (Interrupting) of last year, - it was last year.
At that time I was standing — well I had followed the group down
for a distance so that I was walking behind them on the opposite
side of the street and then they began to run when the police
began moving in on them and I was standing on the porch of a
negro home there. I don?t remember whose home.
Q. Now did you witness any others?
A. Yes. There was a demonstration, several demonstra
tions the morning after Medger Evers was murdered. The first
of these T saw was a group of negro ministers of the City who
met in Pearl Street A.M.E. church for prayer and consultation
about the situation and the ministers decided that before
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1106 .
(King - Direct)
masses of people began protesting and demonstrating, as evidently
from
was about to happen/the feeling in the community that the
ministers themselves would go to the Mayor and try to appeal
to the Mayor for a bi—racial committee to see if people could
work these things out. At that time many people particularly
felt that the Jackson Police had a great deal of responsibility
for Medger Evers’ murder. There was this feeling in the negro
community. Nobody knew any of the details that have come out,
you know, in Court recently. This was the first feeling, and
there was a great deal of hostility toward the police because
for the preceding two weeks the police had harassed Mr. Evers,
had followed him almost everywhere he went, and then suddenly
he was killed and the police did not follow him home. It was
probably just coincidence but the feeling in the negro community
against the police was extremely high. The negro ministers
felt that they should go to the Mayor; that they should try to
appeal that they get a bi-racial commission started and con
ferences with the Mayor and the best people of Jackson be
included in this bi-racial commission.
So about a dozen or perhaps fourteen or fifteen
ministers walked out silently and left the church walking in
single file toward the town. They were met by police and
arrested, taken to jail.
Late that afternoon, once the word spread that the
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1107 .
(King - Direct)
ministers walking in single file had been arrested for we
didn’t know what - parading without a permit, the thing they
usually charge people with - once word spread in the negro
community that their own ministers had not only not been
allowed to see the Mayor but were thrown in jail, things were
really triggered then. Several hundred people gathered at the
Masonic Temple wanting to do something. Many of these people
then had a march, a protest demonstration. I would say at this
point their anxiety was such that they were not protesting
specific things such as the killing of Medger Evers but the
whole pattern of segregation, everything that this had done
to them.
These people started out, T think they started out
down the sidewalk. They were carrying American flags. I don’t
remember whether they had any posters or not. Sometimes people
had posters calling for an end to police brutality. But at this
point there had been so much police brutality, especially toward
women and children, that was one of the key things people were
protesting, so that signs frequently called for either an end
to brutality, establishment of a bi-racial committee in Jackson,
which at this point was seen as a way to end the brutality,
and some signs called for voting rights. But things were done
so hastily that if there were signs I wouldn’t remember
specifically what they said and so on. Many of these people
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1 1 0 8 .
(King - Direct)
did walk down Lynch Street in this demonstration.
THE COURT:
Is that in answer to your question? Did you ask him
a question that called for that length of an answer?
THE WITNESS:
I am trying to describe the ones I saw. This was
about the third demonstration I had seen, sir.
THE COURT:
All right.
THE WITNESS:
(Continuing) These people went down Lynch Street,
toward Jackson hoping to get to the City Hall where the
ministers had been taken to the jail across the street. I
don’t know why the decision was made to walk down the street.
If ministers could be arrested for walking single file on the
sidewalk obviously no form of protest was going to be allowed
in this town anyway.
MR. WATKINS:
If it please the Court, we object to the witness
drawing conclusions and attempting to state what other people
think.
THE COURT:
I sustain the objection.
THE WITNESS:
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1 1 0 9 .
(King -
I wasn’t in the demonstration. I
I led in prayer before the people moved out
MRS. MORRIS:
Direct)
was there - in
in the street.
fact
Q. Do you remember how many police were in the area that
day?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
around in
Jackson p
sheriffs,
occasion.
I would think perhaps a hundred or more.
Do you know where they were?
Yes.
Where were they?
To the best of my ability - there were so many people
various kinds of uniform that L don’t know which were
olice, which were State troopers, which were deputy
and there may have been people deputized for the
Q. Were there state troopers out on that day?
A. I think they were state troopers. The first group a
little beyond Rose Street, police met this group of about two
hundred people who were demonstrating, walking towards town.
They had gone beyond the corner of Rose and Lynch. At this
time I was on a church overlooking the street, so L had a very
good view of what was going on, although not of individual
persons, I could certainly see the people. This is a church
that has a flight of stairs going up to it. I think it’s a
Baptist Church. I am not sure which church, but it is a church
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1110 .
(King - Direct)
on Lynch Street. Several of us were on the balcony there.
The reason we went along following this was so we could report
to the F.B.I. and the Justice Department what scenes of bru
tality we saw, because there had been so many reports coming
in from children of brutality but there had not been many people
adults, or in my case a minister, of course, who had actually
seen the brutality and we were expecting it because it had
happened so much. So I went up so L could really see what
was happening.
The people came like this and the police were here.
I remember these were blue uniforms. I think these were Jackson
police. They were officers of the law.
Q. Reverend King, they are taking this down on a record.
When you say l,like this11 it won't get that.
A. r?m sorry. Keep me straight. The people were moving
towards town, towards the east, and the policemen were moving
west on Lynch Street and met them. At about the same time that
this happened a group, I think perhaps in brown uniforms maybe
in short sleeved shirts, came marching down Rose Street, cadence
counting hup 2, 3, 4 - this sort of thing - with some kind of
guns. I know nothing about guns. I assume they were rifles -
people said theyfve got rifles. I don*t know - they were not
revolvers, they were big guns. They marched down and they
turned into the backs of the people meeting the police.
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1111 .
(King - Direct)
Perhaps fifteen or twenty of the people in the demonstration
broke when they saw this company of almost soldiers marching
toward them. Most of them stayed. The police began moving
into the demonstration on Lynch Street moving west as these
other lawmen moved in with guns aimed toward them, moving east
ward .
I saw clubs going in the air. I could see people
being struck by the police. I don*t know which ones. As I
said I am not sure these were Jackson police. There were so
many law enforcement people here. I would see people holding
on to American flags and sticks going around them, then you would
see several policemen close in around the person so that you
could no longer see the person. You could see an American flag
still being held in the air. You could see clubs swinging and
then suddenly the American flag would fall. We assumed what
had happened, but L wasn*t standing next to it, so it was an
assumption.
This would be the kind of thing I would report to the
Justice Department that 1 would assume that someone was beaten
at this point, but there would be a crowd and the police would
have closed in around them.
After everyone was arrested and taken off in trucks,
then the statehighway patrol or whoever they were or the county
men formed all the way across the street, and T believe police
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1112 .
(King - Direct)
joined them but I don’t really remember that well whether the
police joined them. They moved west on Lynch Street from the
Rose Street area out towards Jackson College. Many people had
joined them on their porches along the street singing freedom
songs. There was a great deal of tension in the air.
As 1 said earlier many of the negroes identified the
Jackson police and were hostile towards the police because of
the murder. I think this is understandable. No one had any
evidence or anything. This was just a mood we had to deal with.
THE COURT:
I think you had better ask him questions. I donTt
think he’s going to get through this afternoon.
THE WITNESS:
O.k., ITm sorry. Anyway, they moved down the street
again clearing the street, people running before them with cadenc
count, marching. Police would come to a porch where people
would be singing freedom songs, they would aim their guns at
the porch and orders would be given for people to stop singing
on the porch and the people would stop singing. Everyone had
to run and clear the street before the police.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. This was after the arrest of the demonstrators?
A. This was after the arrest o f the demonstrators.
These were all people along the sidelines.
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1113 .
(King - Direct)
Q. Now this was, - what time was this?
A. This was about 12:30 or 1:00 o’clock, 2:00 o’clock.
Q. You had transported on prior occasions some people
down town, had you not?
A. Yes, r had, but I had not seen many of these demon
strations. I had just given people rides to town to picket
and things like this.
Q. Now did you see any on the 13th?
A. This was two days after Medger Evers’ murder, yes.
Q. Yes, two days.
A. Yes, I did. Again there was a demonstration similar
in nature to the first. A group of people met in Pearl Street
church, perhaps only a hundred this time, moved out of Pearl
Street church, down Pearl Street, west on Pearl Street to Rose
Street, and then moved north on Rose Street. They were hoping
to reach Capitol Street and then to march to downtown Jackson
and to go to the City Hall, again to register their protest
and appeal to the Mayor for a bi-racial committee. The
necessity of getting into downtown Jackson was the feeling
that many white people would support a bi-racial committee
if they knew the negroes really wanted this, and were really
trying to do this. And the demonstrations in a negro neigh
borhood would never be communicated to white people. The news
papers, T.V., radio and so on, we felt were not really fairly
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1114 .
(King - Direct)
communicating the negro*s views and the only way he could
express his grievances was a public demonstration. These
people marched down the street too rather than on the sidewalk
as the first demonstration.
Q. They were on the side of the street, weren’t they?
A. Oh, yes.
MR. WATKINS:
We object to counsel’s leading.
THE COURT:
Sustain the objection.
THE WITNESS:
Well, o.k. And again I think they were marching
in two’s. They weren’t blocking the street. They got about
as far as a bakery, I believe it’s Hart’s bakery - it would be
Hart’s bakery. I don’t know the street corner. It’s on Rose
Street about a block north of Pearl street. Here they were
met by police in the streets. 1 think everyone had expected
that the police would meet them here. Again the procedure
was just about the same as in all demonstrations. The police
rapidly arrested the demonstrators, the demonstrators were
never fighting the police. Usually the demonstrators stood
while the police moved in on them.
People on porches in the neighborhood - I had come
up b y this time, I had been in the church. I had walked up
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1 1 1 5 .
(King - Direct)
from the church and was standing on the porch of a house where
a number of people were standing. I have forgotten who owned
the house or who lived there. We asked the lady if we could
stand there and she said we could, anybody could stay in her
yard or house who wanted to. We stayed there and we watched to
see what the police did. As the demonstrators were being
carried off in trucks we assume to jail they would cheer from
the trucks and the people on the porches would cheer back and
sing freedom songs to encourage those going to jail. The police
moved in to the people on the porches and charged the porch
where we were, running toward the porch and people began to run
and jump to get out of their way. There were several people
arrested on that occasion. I didn’t see anyone on the porch
get beaten although that was, I think, because of the panic.
I was told that persons standing on both sides --
MR. WATKINS:
We object to what he was told,
THE COURT:
Ove rruled.
THE WITNESS:
Anyway I am saying I didn’t see any brutality on the
po rches.
MRS. MORRIS:
Q. You were arrested later on an affidavit made on that
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1116 .
period?
(King - Direct)
date, were you not?
A. I was arrested after Medger Evers' funeral. They
told me at that time that they were arresting me for cursing
the police.
Q. On the 13th?
A. On the 13th.
Q. Let me ask you this, Reverend King---
A. I was not in the demonstration that day.
Q. You were in and out of the Masonic Temple during this
►
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Did you notice any police in that area?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were they?
A. Parked across the street, cruising up and down.
Any time I would come out of Masonic Temple L would be followed
by police. I was in and out of the Temple so much there probab
ly were times when I wasn't followed. But 1 remember after the
affair on Rose Street that I went back to the temple, was
followed from Rose Street back to the temple and when T left
the temple that afternoon I was followed for at least forty
to forty five minutes by police that day. T remember it very
clearly because I would try to shake them, get rid of them and
did on occasion. They would pick me up again later. The next
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1117 .
(King - Direct)
day I was followed, and on the morning of the funeral I was
followed to the funeral by police. I saw police around the
funeral. I went to the airport that morning to meet some who
were coming to town. I saw plenty of police there. I was
utterly amazed when I was arrested on Saturday afternoon and
police said they had a warrant out for something that had
happened several days earlier.
Q. Had you been attending these mass meetings, Reverend
King?
A. Yes, daily.
Q. Are you familiar with the organizations and the
individuals who were working with these meetings?
A. Yes.
Q. To your knowledge, did any of the organizations or
any of the persons have any plans for June 15th?
A. This was the day of the funeral?
Q. Y e s.
A. The only plan for the day of the funeral was the
funeral itself and a procession after the funeral service back
to the funeral home.
Q. A demonstration was discussed, wasnTt it?
A. Yes. The decision was made that there would be no
demonstration as there had been in the past. There would
probably be several thousand people at the funeral, and that
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1118 .
(King - Direct)
these people would just walk in a quiet fashion behind the
hearse and the family cars back to the funeral home. Other
than this there was no demonstration planned. There was
certainly no attempt to have picketing, to have signs or any
of the things we had attempted in other demonstrations. No
one even carried flags on this occasion. The only flag was
that on Mr. Evers* casket.
MRS. MORRIS:
I think that*s all the questions I have.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q. When did you come to Tugaloo?
A. We pronounce that word Tougaloo.
Q. I understand how you pronounce it. I have called it
Tugaloo all my life and with your permission I am going to
continue to do so.
A. Well, 1*11 give you permission, but as a courtesy,
just as if it were a family name or something, it happens to
be an Indian name, but as a courtesy we would appreciate it if
you would pronounce it Tougaloo.
Q. I asked you when you started your service with that
institution.
A. In February, 1963.
Q. Where did you live prior to that time?
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1119.
(King - Cross)
A. I had been in seminary in Boston University School of
Theology and in graduate school, - this is a Methodist school,
- for five years prior to that, although Mississippi is my
home.
Q. Shortly after you came to the college you interested
yourself in organizing and promoting the campaign to boycott
the Capitol Street stores and other stores, did you not?
A. There was a campaign in existence when I came here.
Q. And you interested yourself in that campaign, did you
not?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And throughout these demonstrations that took place
in 1963, you took an active part in that boycott campaign,
didn* t you?
A. I never shopped on Capitol Street where negroes are
not treated with courtesy.
Q. You took more part in it than that, didn*t you?
DidnTt you arrange for the demonstration in the nature of
picketing in front of stores on Capitol Street?
A. Yes, I was involved in these. In these particular
demonstrations T usually was in with the group of people who
talked about what might happen, and frequently led in the
worship service before they went out.
Q. And you would take them down town to the point where
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(King - Cross)
you wanted them to march, wouldn’t you?
A. r really don’t remember. I drove some people down
town that went into Woolworth’s. T drove some people down,
some women, some parents who went to the City Hall. I may
well, - I am not saying T did not drive anybody down to picket.
I just don’t remember. I certainly would have done it if any
one had asked me. r am not trying to get out of it. I was very
glad they went and would help in any way I could. r just don’t
remember whether L did or not.
Q. Did you help prepare the literature which was dis
tributed during the demonstrations with reference to the boycott
movement?
A. r am not sure which literature you are referring to.
I don’t know of any literature which was distributed during the
demonstration s.
Q. And by ’’during the demonstrations” I am talking about
beginning with the demonstration of December 12, 1962.
A. In these demonstrations there were perhaps seventy or
eighty thousand pieces of literature distributed in the white
and negro commiinities, prior to this, and I did help with one
of these statements.
Q. I will ask you whether or not you either helped
prepare or distribute what has been identified here as Defen
_____________________ 1120 .
dant’s Exhibit 3 for identification to the witness Charles
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1121 .
(King - Cross)
Evers?
A. Yes, r recognize it.
Q. Did you both help prepare it and distribute it?
A. Charles Evers? - All I can say is what I did. I did
help with this. I will speak for myself.
Q. All right, that’s what I am asking.
A. Many other people would have helped with it also but
I wouldn’t be sure who did or who did not.
Q. You helped in the preparation and distribution of
this ?
A. I helped in the preparation of it.
Q. DidnTt you also distribute it?
A. Yes. I mailed some out. We mailed some of these out
to white ministers in Jackson whose names we got from the tele
phone directory. We wanted them to know what simple things the
negroes were asking for.
Q. r show you what has been marked here as Defendants
Exhibit D-5 for identification of the witness Evers and I will
ask you if you had anything to do with the preparation or
distribution of that type of literature?
A. It is the same, isn’t it? Maybe I didn’t read the
other one carefully. There is a slight difference in the two.
So I am not sure which one. I helped prepare one of them.
There may have been others prepared later. Obviously one came
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1122 .
(King - Cross)
after the other. Wfiat 1 did, this says "Negro Shoppers and
Friends”, and then described the Jackson movement and so on.
It was my suggestion that the "and Friends” be added to this
statement. Other than that 1 did not help in preparing it. We
did this because so many white people had contacted us saying,
we are joining you in the boycott, all we can do.
Q. So this literature which calls for a boycott of all
stores on Capitol Street which has the expression ”and Friends”
on it, you helped in the preparation of it?
A. Yes, because so many white Christians had called at
the college, most of them never identifying themselves, oh,
we had letters and things like this from them, we felt that
it was almost racial in tone to say "Negro Shoppers” don*t do
this when we had so many white friends helping secretly.
Q. And what was the Jackson Boycott Movement?
A. Well, the Jackson Movement, - r am not sure what the
Jackson Boycott Movement is. r am not familiar with that
phrase. The boycott was part of the Jackson Movement. This
was something that anybody in Jackson could participate in
just by withdrawing their purchasing power. I don*t think
it was ever, you know, ever anything organized just as the
Jackson Boycott Movement. This phrase may be used. I am not
familiar with it.
Q. I show you what has been offered as Defendants
1123
(King - Cross)
Exhibit 6 for identification to the witness Charles Evers which
purports to be a letter or statement addressed to Jackson
business men, at the bottom of it, the Jackson Area Boycott
Movement, January, 1963, with a postmark of Tugaloo - that's
Tougaloo, as you call it - on it.
A. Thank you.
Q. Are you familiar with that, either the preparation or
distribution of it?
A. I wasn't here in January, 1963.
Q. I realize that, but that's been in existence ever
since January, 1963. Did you become familiar with it after you
got to J ackson?
A. Let me read it.
Q. Please do.
A. I probably did.
Q. Read it please.
THE COURT;
I don't know whether my notes are correct or not.
The witness here identified Exhibit D-3 as being one he had a
part in preparing, and then he said something about another
exhibit that had "and Friends" on it, and I don't know what
number that is.
MR. WATKINS:
D-5, Your Honor. I think the witness said - both of
1124.
(King - Cross)
them have "and Friends" on them - I think he said he helped with
the preparation and distribution of both, D-3 and D-5.
THE COURT;
Is that what you intended to say, Mr. King?
THE WITNESS:
Well, I suggested the phrase "and Friends". I don’t
know which one, I really don’t. Once I suggested it, I guess
r helped with the second one too.
THE COURT:
I just understood him to say one of them and I didnTt
understand him to say both.
THE WITNESS:
I am not sure which myself. I will accept the
responsibility for both.
MR. WATKINS:
He said one, and when he realized the phrase "and
Friends" is on both of them, Your Honor, I understood him to
tell me that he then assisted in the preparation of both of
these.
THE WITNESS:
Since that phrase was used, - I suggested that phrase
THE COURT:
You see, I don’t know what’s on either one of those
things, so I am just trying to find out
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1125.
THE WITNESS:
I think I have seen
very similar to it. There was
mailed out.
(King - Cross)
this one. I have seen things
a lot of literature like this
MR. WATKINS:
was
Q. You recognize that as a part of the literature
used in connection with the boycott movement?
A. Yes.
that
Q. And you know it was distributed although you didnTt
distribute it yourself.
A. I was told it was distributed. I may have sent some
out like this. We tried to make mailings to white ministers
so that they would know what was going on. We may have included
this in the mailing.
Q. I would like to ask you if the same is true of this
statement addressed to the business men of Jackson, which has
at the bottom of it Jackson Boycott Movement, Spring, 1963.
A. I will just glance over this because I was not that
directly involved in it, but I did see much of the material so
I imagine I have seen it.
My answer would have to be just about the same.
Q. That is a part of the literature that was used in
connection with the boycott?
A. Yes, it is certainly typical of the things that were
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1126 .
(King - Cross)
expressed, but I was not preparing it in detail.
MR. WATKINS:
We would like for this to be marked for identifica
tion as an exhibit to Reverend King’s testimony.
THE COURT:
That’s Defendant’s Exhibit 10 for identification only.
(The said paper was marked by the Reporter as
Exhibit 10 for identification only to the
testimony of the witness, Reverend Edwin King).
THE WITNESS:
It may never have been mailed out. I jus
MR. WATKINS:
Q. And you have been active in that boycott
from that time up to today, haven’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. You still are?
A. Certainly, I won’t shop on Capitol Street
take my business to places where all Americans are
fairly.
t don’t know.
movement
. I will
t reated
Q. And as long as Professor John Salter was at the
College he also was active in the participation of this boycott
movement, wasn’t he?
A. I don’t know whether I can answer a question for
other people or not. It would be to the best of my ability.
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1127.
(King - Cross)
Q. Do you know whether he was active?
A. Yes, he was active.
Q. He was active. I will ask you if Dr. Biettel, the
president of the College, has not also been active in the boy
cott movement?
A. To the best of my knowledge he has not been. As a
person, as a Christian person in Jackson he may well not be
shopping in stores that discriminate. I have never talked to
him. r don’t know whether he is doing this or not. I just
don’t know. As far as being active in the boycott he certainly
hasn’t been. The boycott is the kind of thing that anybody coulc
participate in.
Q. The College has given you permission to take the
active part that you have taken in it, has it not?
A. No.
Q. Has it expressed any disapproval?
A. No. The College didn’t give permission or express
disapproval about my work as chaplain, dean of students and
what we teach in the class room. There are a lot of things
that go on that the College neither expresses approval or dis
approval about.
Q. Reverend King, when you came to the front steps of
this building on May 30, 1963, did you come for a prayer
service?
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1 1 2 8 .
(King - Cross)
A. This was to be the beginning of what we were doing.
We were going to have a prayer service to unite us together,
then one of our members was to make a statement appealing to all
people of Jackson for an end to police brutality and for a bi-
racial commission. The prayer service was a part of it, but it
was only a small part of what we were doing - to make a public
protest.
Q. You intended to conduct a public religious service
there in front of the building and then you expected to have
speaking following it?
A. Yes. Oh, the prayer was for our benefit. We were
going to bow our heads in prayer before the statement was made,
especially when we saw the policemen around, people who had
gathered behind us in the post office, you could hear cursing
and things like this.
Q. Didn’t one or more members of your group pray out
loud there in front of the building?
A. One man was going to try to, yes.
Q. Didn’t he?
A. I could not hear. There was so much cursing going on
from white people.
Q. Was that a part of your plan for him to pray out loud
there on Capitol Street?
A. Yes, like Salvation Army or someone might pray on the
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1 1 2 9 .
(King - Cross)
street corner hoping to appeal to people just passing by on the
street.
Q. Somewhere in the Bible doesn’t it tell us to repair to
our closets and pray to God in private and not to pray in public
as some people do?
A. That may be your interpretation of the scripture.
Q. You donTt recall anything of that kind?
A. The Bible tells us a lot of things. I donTt think it
ever said ’’Don’t pray in public.” If it ever said this there
would be no temple built in Jerusalem, and Jesus of course
would never have prayed while he was on the cross. T would
think this situation was a little more similar to that with a
howling, jeering mob of white Jacksonians and police like Roman
soldiers around. r don’t think any of us should compare our
selves with Jesus, but the Bible certainly doesn’t say never
pray in public. And as I say, we were praying because we saw
these people and felt we would need strength and support. One
of our members was later to make a statement, a broader state
ment, not just a prayer.
Q. You intended to attract a crowd on Capitol Street
that day, didn’t you?
A. Well, what we had really hoped was that there might
be some concerned people that time of the day that would hear
what we were saying, that the television and radio might pick
(King - Cross) 1 1 3 0 .
it up and that through this means of public communication we
could reach the good people of Jackson who we were convinced
and are still convinced would not condone what the police of
Jackson had done the three preceding days.
Q. Am I to take that as an affirmative answer to my
question that you intended to draw a crowd?
A. We were not particularly concerned whether there
was a huge crowd right there or not. We wanted to reach any
people we could reach, one person or a hundred persons.
Q. You do know that there were thousands assembled
there around you on Capitol Street that day, don-t you?
A. I am not good at numbers. There was a large
crowd. I remember walking through the crowd as they cursed
about half an hour before the demonstration had begun and it
was so big I wondered why the police hadn?t done something to
control it. They were certainly blocking the sidewalk. I
think they had spilled over into the street.
Q. And the police on more than one occasion asked and
then ordered your group to disperse and move on away from that
place, didn^t they?
A. They did this as one of our members was leading in
prayer and I was praying. I certainly felt under the circum
stances that we had a right to be there. I don?t know why
the police singled us out, except the fact that we were
protesting segregation and this mob was affirming segregation.
(King - Cross) 1 1 3 1 .
Q. Reverend King, my only question to you was whether or
not the police first requested and then ordered your group to
disperse and move on.
A. They were saying something like that. I was trying
to concentrate on my prayer in spite of all the cursing and
screaming going on. I feel sure they did. They frequently told
them to move on, but as I said even had everything been very
calm and the police had asked us to move on we were not doing
anything that the police had a right to tell us to move on.
Q. You have indicated that the crowd, a large crowd,
around you that day was unfriendly, haven’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. You have indicated or said that the police under
those circumstances asked you and your group to disperse and
move on.
A. No, T did not say that. I think the police would
have asked us to disperse under any circumstances.
Q. I didn’t ask you what you thought. T asked you if
they didn’t ask you to disperse and move on.
A. O.k., that’s not what you said a minute ago. You
asked me - you were sort of suggesting why the police asked us
to move, and I don’t want to answer that kind of question. I
have assumptions -- all I can say is that the police came up
while one of our ministers was trying to lead in prayer and
ordered us to move, the best I could hear with all the noise
(King - Cross) 1 1 3 2 .
around.
Q. And you declined to move?
A. I continued praying.
Q. You refused to obey the police order.
A. If thatTs the way you put it.
Q. You have told me on the occasion of one of those
demonstrations that you witnessed that the children started a
march, which you said was headed for City Hall, and during
which you said they intended to march and sing, is that correct?
A. I think they intended to sing after they got to the
City Hall or to the area near the fairgrounds where so many
others were imprisoned. I don*t know whether they planned to
sing while they walked or not. I donft think they did.
Q. How did you know what their intentions were?
A. Because I had met with them before they moved out.
Q. Had you helped plan the demonstration?
A. Yes, I had.
Q. In the planning of the demonstration, were they to
march on the street or on the sidewalk or where?
A. They were to walk in orderly pairs, as school children
frequently do, two by two, down the sidewalk, to reach their
destination.
Q. How many were there to be?
A. Any number who wanted to.
Q. Well, how many of them were there in the march?
(King - Cross) 1133 .
A. On one occasion I think there were about twelve or
fifteen hundred who tried to march. Most of them were stopped
at their schools and never got to downtown Jackson.
Q. I’m talking about the day you were telling the Court
about when they were supposed to march and sing.
A. I mentioned this as several days. One day there
were about a hundred. One day there were about two hundred. On
the occasion on Rose Street I think there were about eighty.
Q. Singing could very well have been a part of their
marching process?
A. No, they were not supposed to sing. They were to
sing when they got to their destination.
Q. I thought you told me a minute ago that for all you
knew they were going to sing on their way.
A. No, I thought that was very clear. I don’t know why
you understood it that way. I said that they were going to
sing when they got to their destination. They were walking
quietly. If they did sing I donTt remember it. They may
have sung. No one planned for them to sing walking down the
street, slthough I’m not sure what’s so dangerous about school
children singing.
Q. Now the reason you were in and out of the Masonic
Temple on Lynch Street so much and the reason you were near so
many of these demonstrations was the fact that you were partici
pating in the organizing and planning of them, wasn’t it?
(King - Cross) 1134 .
A. Yes, I was very concerned about what happened to
the people. In otherwords, we had come to the temple when we
heard that a large group of people had gathered and wanted to
demonstrate, to try to put some order in it, and to instruct
them.
Q. I want to talk to you a few minut
curred, I think, on the 13th of June, 1963,
Park Streets, and, to bring it back to your
I am talking about was the occurrence where
porch of a home.
A. Near the bakery?
Q. Yes.
es about what oc-
at Rose and Deer
mind, the occurrence
you were upon the
A. O.k., is Deer Park the Street?
Q. I think so, but I would have to ask you. I wasn’t
there.
A. I am not familiar with Deer Park.
Q. Well, was it on Rose Street?
A. Yes.
Q. All right, I will refer to it as Rose Street. Now,
at that time and place how many demonstrators were on the side
walks or streets?
A. There were perhaps eighty to one hundred, - may have
been as little as fifty or sixty, and I think most of the
demonstrators were walking on one side of the street. Some may
have been on the sidewalk. I don’t think so.
(King - Cross) 1135.
Q. Rose Street is a narrow street, isn’t it?
A. More narrow than some.
Q. Isn’t it approximately fifteen feet wide?
A. I will accept your estimate on that.
Q. It’s much narrower than most streets in Jackson,
isn’t it?
A. Well, for a negro neighborhood it’s fairly wide.
It certainly was^ one that three or four cars could go by on.
Q. It was a negro neighborhood.
A. At that point it was a negro neighborhood.
Q. I believe you stated that you were on the porch of
one of the homes, or were you in one of the homes?
A. Both.
Q. Both, - whose home was it?
A. I don’t remember the lady’s name. It was the first
time I had been there.
Q. Was it a colored home?
A. Yes.
Q. I want to ask you if there weren’t throngs of people
gathered on both sides of the street up into the yards of the
houses around these demonstrators?
A. Yes, there were.
Q. They were people who were obviously antagonistic to-
ward the efforts of police, I would say to control, you would
probably say to interfere with the demonstrators, isn’t that
(King - Cross) 1136
co rrect?
A. O.k., yes, but they were not doing anything to inter
fere with the police.
Q. They were extremely hostile in what they said to the
police, weren’t they? Didn’t they threaten the police?
A. No.
Q. Didn’t they use profanity toward the police?
A. No. The only person I’ve ever heard cursing in
Jackson has been the city policemen and white women in Wool-
worth’s and men in Woolworth’s.
Q. I have not asked you about any occasion except on
Rose Street.
A. All right. I am not sayirifg that there was no cursing
but I did not hear any.
Q. Didn’t you hear cursing directed toward the police
coming from the porch on which you were standing?
A. No. I was accused of cursing the police myself, and
I heard no cursing. I certainly didn’t, and I heard none coming
from there. All I can testify is what I didn’t hear, and there
may well have been some. A lot happened that day that I saw and
a lot happened that I didn’t see. So all I can say is that I
didn’t hear the cursing. It could well have happened, I didn’t
hear it and from my past experience I would think it didn’t
happen.
Q. Professor John Salter was with you on that occasion,
(King - Cross) 1137.
wasn’t he?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. He was also a teacher in the college where you were
teaching, wasn’t he?
A. Yes.
Q. How did the two of you happen to be in that colored
home at the time of that demonstration that day?
A. We had been in Pearl Street Church. I had read
scriptures and led in prayer before a group. At this point,
many of our own students were in this demonstration. We were
following to see, as I said, again to make report back to the
Justice Department about what was happening. We wanted to see.
I had not seen this first major demonstration on Farish Street
and 1 had heard stories. As you would say, what you hear doesn’t
mean the truth. I am from Mississippi, from Jackson, and I had
heard so many reports about white policemen beating children and
beating women, I sort of did believe it and didn’t believe it,
so I wanted to see that what was reported in the confusion of
the moment would not be something someone else had seen but
something I had seen myself. This is why I went, to see how
the demonstrators behaved and to see how the police behaved.
I think this is what everyone on the side lines was doing,
watching the demonstration in the street.
Q. You mentioned a large number of the demonstrators
being children from your college.
(King - Cross) 1138 .
A. This particular demonstration I would say there
were twelve or fifteen college students out of the sixty or
eighty in it.
Q. As a matter of fact, students from your college
have spearheaded practically all the demonstrations that have
taken place in the past eighteen months in Jackson, haven*t
they?
A. It is my understanding that a thousand students from
Jackson State College were protesting last night or the night
before.
Q. I don’t know what happened last night or the night
before. I haven’t had a chance to investigate that, but let
me ask you this question and please try to answer it. Up
until that demonstration last night or the night before haven’t
the Tugaloo students played a prominent part in every demonstra
tion in J ackson?
A. Negro and white students who attend Tougaloo College
who were concerned as Americans and Christians have played a
prominent part in protesting segregation in Jackson.
Q. In all the demonstrations?
A. I don’t know about all the demonstrations. Certainly
not last summer in all the demonstrations. There were demon
strations that Tougaloo people were in. There were so many
demonstrations, there must have been demonstrations that they
weren’t in. They certainly were not there as the Tougaloo
(King - Cross) 1 1 3 9 .
demonstrators.
Q. Did you witness any demonstrations where Tougaloo
students weren’t represented?
A. I just don’t remember. I do know that I was aware
that in many of the demonstrations my students were there, and
that’s one reason I was there, that’s why I was in Woolworth’s,
because they were my students. I was their pastor, but I was
concerned about everyone else in the demonstration.
Q. And those kids were in the street on the advice
and following the example of their chaplain in that college,
weren’t they?
A. They were there on the advice of many people, that
wanted to go themselves. I said that I felt that the protest
all over the country and in Jackson was a good thing and was
even part of their Christian witness. As I said, I led in
prayer before they went out. Many of them expected to be
treated very badly. Many of them were very frightened. I
certainly didn’t attempt to say that they had nothing to fear.
Q. You encouraged them to take part in these demon
strations .
MR. BELL:
Your Honor, before we go any further, I think we are
at least entitled to see the law which makes it somehow a crime
for Tougaloo students to take part in demonstrations. I think
the witness has answered the question, and I can’t see the
(King - Cross) 1140 .
relevancy of any of this.
THE COURT:
I overrule the objection.
MR. WATKINS:
Q. As a matter of fact the hundreds and hundreds of
school children who are now on the criminal records of the
City of Jackson have been put there on the advice of people
like you, haven’t they?
A. No. As I mentioned earlier, at one point there
were about twelve hundred high school students in Jackson
ready to move and they were joined the next day by hundreds of
junior high school students. I think they were put there, as
much as we understand, because of what Mr. Bill Conner
did in Birmingham and what they had seen on television and
the inspiration of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King.
Most of these people, the students and the children,
when these people began demonstrating and once the police moved
onto their high school campus with dogs, what people at Tougalo
thought or what people at the NAACP thought, or what the
ministers of Jackson thought, - I don’t think anybody locally
inspired them. I think they were inspired to their courageous
acts by what they had lived under for ten years or for eighteen
years, however old they were, and what they had seen happening,
especially in Birmingham.
This thing was building up in the whole negro
(King - Cross) 1 1 4 1 .
community and I think Tougaloo is part of the response to the
community. I am trying to be fair with you and I don’t think
you could say that they led them, especially for the high
school students.
Q. You have told us on both direct and cross that the
feeling was extremely high in the negro community in Jackson,
haven’t you?
A. Yes, it certainly was.
Q. Did you or Professor Salter do anything to try to
calm down that high feeling among the negroes or did you en
courage them emotionally?
A. I feel that by advising them to go out into the
streets, to march to the City Hall, to attempt to communicate
with the Mayor, to sing patriotic songs and hymns in front of
the City Hall, to try to reach the jail, through all of these
things we were doing everything possible to calm the demonstra
tions because we urged them to do this in a non-violent way.
As American citizens they certainly have the right to protest
and as Christians they have the duty to witness to their faith.
I would never say that a Christian pastor should
calm a situation where witness is needed. T think the advice
we gave them on how to make their witness was a calming advice.
Q. You were present at most of the mass meetings that
were held to plan these demonstrations in Jackson during that
period, weren’t you?
(King - Cross) 1142.
A. Yes.
Q. You were present at a meeting held at 7:30 P.M.
on May 21st, 1963, at the A.M.E. Church on Pearl Street,
weren’t you?
A. Yes. Right now Z don’t remember which particular
meeting, but Z was there Z’m sure.
Q. Well, let me ask you if you don’t recall that
Professor John R. Salter was introduced as a faculty member of
your College, and was described in the introduction as chair
man of the strategy committee of the movement, - do you recall
that?
A. He probably was chairman that day and so he would
have been introduced that way, and he certainly was a profes
sor at the College. He would have been a co-chairman at that
meeting.
Q. Don’t you also recall that he spoke at that meeting?
A. Z don’t recall these things. Z will accept anything
you have to say on it that he said. Zf you happen to have the
record — -
Q.
following s
A.
Q.
but if that
Let me ask you if he didn’t make, among others, the
tatement?
O.K., as much as Z remember.
’’The plan is to boycott the businesses in Jackson
doesn’t work there will be no end to the demon
strations in Jackson
(King - Cross) 1143.
A. That sounds like a statement he could have made,
and that twenty other people could have made. I can’t say
exactly.
Q. It is the typical type of statement that was made
at those meetings, wasn’t it?
A. Yes, that demonstrations in protest of segregation
would be continued. That’s when we were hoping to continue
them until we got a bi-racial committee or some agreements were
met by the Mayor and of course the Mayor did meet some of our
ag reements.
Q. You also attended a meeting on the night of May
28th at that same church at 9:30 P.M., didn’t you?
A. Probably. I don’t remember any meeting starting
at 9:30. rt must have started earlier.
Q. Do you recall at that meeting that Dave Dennis,
Field Secretary of CORE was introduced?
A. Dave Dennis spoke at many meetings. I assume he
spoke at that one.
Q. Do you recall him saying, and I quote: ”We must
prepare for war for the snake is still in the grass.”
A. I don’t remember the quotation. It sounds like a
reasonable thing to say. I am sure he also said, ”tfe must be
non-violent no matter what method of war the police use against
us.” He spoke constantly about being non-violent. He fre
quently led in the non-violent workshop, which was one of his
(King - Cross) 1144.
major roles in the movement. Everyone knows that CORE is a
non-violent organization and this is why he was here to help
us. The people of Jackson appealed to all of the Civil Rights
groups in the country to give us help in their special ways,
so if he made a statement like this, I wouldn’t want to say
that he said there will be war in Jackson and let you think
that he made the implication that negroes would be violent
because T am sure he did not.
Q. Didn’t John Salter address that meeting?
A. He probably did.
Q. Didn’t he say among other things, and I quote: ”We
will never trifle with our rights; we will take our rights.”
Didn’t he say that?
A. He probably did. I think it’s an excellent state
ment. Tf he didn’t say it, Medger Evers would have or someone,
certainly, would have said that or this kind of a thing.
Q. Were you present at a meeting held at the Masonic
Temple on the night of May 31st, 1963?
A. On most of these I will say I was. There were one
or two meetings T was not present at but at almost every meeting
the same kind of things were said. So the way the questions are
going r could probably say ”Yes, this is the kind of thing that
happened.” I think T was there.
Q. Do you recall Roy Wilkins, executive secretary of
NAACP, addressing that meeting?
(King - Cross) 1 1 4 5 .
A. The only meeting he addressed that summer r was
there. r was in a committee meeting part of the time but I
had certainly talked to Mr. Wilkins and I heard most of his
speech.
Q. Do you recall his telling that group there that
night, "They can’t stop it. They are just like Hitler. All
they need is an oven in there to bake you as Hitler did the
Jews." Do you remember that?
MRS. MORRIS:
Your Honor, I object to this line of questioning.
First, it sounds strongly like interrogatories being read into
evidence. Second, the witness has said he doesn’t remember,
and I don’t know what purpose it serves to go on with this.
THE COURT;
Of course, to answer your objections in the order in
which you list them, that’s the only way he could get a deposition
in when the witness is present to ask him questions like he is
asking him. Of course he can’t answer anything he doesn’t know.
I think he’s thoroughly capable to take care of himself.
MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, he has either accepted or identified most
statements or quotations I have given him from these meetings.
THE COURT;
Go ahead.
MR. WATKINS:
(King - Cross) 1146 .
Q. Do you recall that statement having been made by
Roy Wilkins that night?
A. r think r do. As I said , I was in a committee
meeting part of this time, and Mr. Wilkins made a statement
either the re or at another meeting earlier that day. He did
make a statement to this effect. Many people made a statement
to this effect. r remember it particularly because of people
here in Jackson who made similar statements and I remember
thinking, isn’t it interesting that Mr. Roy Wilkins and people
in Jackson, white people, thought the same way. He did describe
the conditions similar to Nazi Germany or Nazi concentration
camps. I was down in the place. I saw the kind of brutality
and things going on down there, I saw torture going on down
there. r think the only thing we have in our historical back-
ground in recent years would be Nazi Germany to compare it t o.
Q. To compare Jackson to?
A. Ye s. Now whether this is the exact words of Mr. Roy
Wilkins, - T doubt if he even remembers his exact words, on
that occasion. T think it’s certainly a very fitting descrip
tion .
Q. After making what you describe as a very fitting
statement to that group, do you recall his telling the group,
’’They can’t stop you.”?
A. Well that, - anyone who came here to Jackson said
this, and it is certainly true. No one can stop the negroes
(King - Cross) 1147 .
in Jackson, no matter how many concentration camps.
Q. Do you recall Willie Ludden addressing that
meeting?
A. No, I donft. Wait, let me ask you. I think, -
Mr. Ludden - several people came in, and I believe Mr. Ludden
came in, who had been beaten. There were two people who had
been brutally attacked by the police that day who spoke to the
meeting that night, and L think Mr. Ludden was one of them.
He may still have been in jail at that time. I talked to him
a lot afterwards about his beating. rYm not sure whether I
talked to him personally about it or what he said to a meeting
or what he said to a committee or to the Justice Department.
But if you ask a quote I can say this is the type thing I
heard him say or L did not hear him say. I*m not sure he
was at that meeting.
Q. Do you recall him stating to the group publicly at
that meeting, “If you don*t join those students who are
t *■fighting your battle, then I think you are a coward.11?
A. No, L don*t, but again I say that I was in a com-
nittee meeting off and on that night too, and I don*t remember
whether he was even there.
Q. Did you attend a mass meeting on June 4, 1963, at
the Pearl Street A.M.E. Church at 8;00 P.M.?
A. 1 think I did.
Q. Do you recall John Salter addressing that meeting?
(King - Cross) 1148 .
A. If I was there and John Salter addressed it, I
did. I was out of town several of those days. I just don*t
remember the dates. I think I was out of town around the 7th,
8th, 9th or 10th, somewhere along there, so I would have been
there on the 4th.
Q. Do you recall John Salter saying, "VTe are going to
keep pushing until we win.1*?
A. I donTt recall the exact statement. It sounds like
something that he and many others would have said.
Q. Do you recall or remember Gloster Current addressing
that meeting?
A. Mr. Current addressed several meetings.
Q. Do you recall, - incidently, you did know that he
was a national director of branches of the NAACP, did you?
A. Yes. I said earlier that the Jackson negro people
had asked for help from everybody.
Q. Do you recall his telling that group, tlWe already
have $50,000.00 invested in you people?
A. I donTt remember any specific amount of money
mentioned in a rally. He did tell us the NAACP would support
the negro people of Jackson. I remember this was the essence
of what he had to say, and this was good news for us at the
moment. Now as to specific amounts of money, I don*t remember.
Q. Do you recall Medger Evers addressing that meeting?
A. I think so
(King - Cross) 1149 .
Q. Do you recall his telling the group that the demon
strations in the streets in Jackson would continue?
A. He certainly said that while he was alive.
Q. Do you recall his saying that at that meeting?
A. No, I don’t. When I say ’’yes’* and wnolt I mean I
believe you if you said it, if you have a quotation on it,
and you had your men, - somehow you had your men in the building
Q. Did you attend the meeting on June 7, 1963, at 8:00
o’clock P.M. at the Masonic Temple on Lynch Street?
A. Do you remember what day of the week that was,
because I did leave town at one point.
Q. June 7th.
A. O.k., let’s say that I did.
Q. Did what?
A. For all 1 can remember I did attend the meeting.
I don’t remember when I went out of town - 1 was out of town
Saturday, Sunday, Monday and Tuesday. 1 got back to town the
day Medger was killed.
Q. Do you know who Dr. H. Claude Hudson is?
A. This question was asked me earlier and 1 didn’t
remember. I think now that he is somebody from the West Coast,
a negro business man or insurance man or something like that.
I have never met him before.
Q. Isn’t he a member of the National Board of Directors
of the NAACP from Los Angeles, California?
(King - Cross) 1150 .
A. I wouldn’t know that. I didn’t associate him with
the NAACP at all. He could be.
Q. Did you hear him address that meeting?
A. If I was there I probably heard him.
Q. Do you recall hearing him?
A. No, but we had so many speakers. He just must not
have been someone that I remember, or I may have been talking
to someone else. Sometimes some of us would go out during a
committee meeting and talk about someone else who was to speak
later or to decide on which minister would lead in the prayer.
You know it was just technical matters going on in the meeting.
I don’t remember Mr. Hudson.
Q. Do you recall his making this statement to that
public meeting, l,The streets of Jackson might be red with
blood. Your bodies might be mangled in the street. Then if
we have to do it we will do it.1*?
A. 1 don’t remember the quote. It’s the kind of thing
that other people might have said. 1 have said this sort of
thing to the people because after what 1 had seen the police
doing I thought that the streets might well have run red with
blood, but anybody who said this would have meant negro blood.
The last part of the statement, 1 don’t know what it means.
Q. You were willing for the streets of Jackson to run
red with blood if it took it to get what you wanted done in
this city, weren’t you?
(King - Cross) 1151 .
A. As a matter of Christian principle, r think the negro
people will have to sacrifice and I think the streets of Jackson
will run red with negro blood, but this is your responsibility
for every drop of blood that is shed.
Q. And you are encouraging what you know and believe
will eventually lead to blood in the streets of the City of
Jackson, aren't you?
A. I am encouraging people voluntarily to follow what
1 consider to be the way of the cross and at mass meetings, as
I did last night, I tried to explain this in terms of Christian
theology. As I said earlier, the only historical context we
have is Nazi Germany. The only religious concept that can have
any meaning for the negroes of Jackson is voluntary suffering
following Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour who went to the
cross.
Q. Do you recall Dick Gregory addressing that meeting?
A. I remember Mr. Gregory addressing one meeting.
Q. Do you recall his saying to that group, wLet?s bust
them, and 1 say to the policemen in the house, you go back to
your big white daddy and tell him ?stretch the barbed wire baby
'cause we is coming.w Do you remember his saying that?
A. He said so many things like this that night. That
sounds like it, describing barbed wire. He meant the stock
buildings where the boys and girls had been put.
Q. And those kind of statements were made to groups, a
(King - Cross) 1 1 5 2 .
large part of which were teen-age children, weren’t they?
A. At that point most of the teen-age children were in
jail. That’s why he was making the statement. Those state
ments were made in meetings that ran four hours, very long
meetings. Any person who spoke, spoke for a long time. If
he had a few statements that I guess you consider inflammatory -
Q. (interrupting) Don’t you consider them inflamma-
to ry ?
A. I consider them inspiring and truthful. He said
many other things too. I think if you are reading statements
to be fair you should present every word that was said. Mr.
Gregory - I guess it’s his business to have sharp things to
say.
Q. What do you remember that Dick Gregory said that
night that was inspiring?
A. I don’t remember anything hardly anybody said. We
have had maybe a hundred mass meetings, and I have met Mr.
Gregory on several occasions. I remember he spoke very very
late that night. The meeting went on and on and on. That’s
about all I can remember. You remember strange things. I just
kept vencfering when th$- would ever get around to stopping.. I guess I
was tired.
Q. With feeling in Jackson, as you say,
community already running high you endorsed and
in the colored
encouraged that
kind of statement I have just read to you
(King - Cross) 1153 .
A. I don?t think anybody at a mass meeting could be
responsible for endorsing and encouraging any specific thing
anybody else said. Any meeting we had in Jackson we usually
get a few slightly different interpretations of something. I
think the people at a meeting like this would take things as
they were said in the spirit of the evening. The details of
how something would be done were always worked out with the
emphasis on non-violence. As far as I know every demonstration
that was planned in this city and carried out was done so in a
totally non-violent way.
Q. Why talk of this business of blood in the streets
and barbed wire if your aim is non-violence?
A. Our aim is non-violence to the persecutors. My aim
as a Christian minister is to explain that there probably will
be violence, that your blood may be shed, but donft be surprised,
don*t give way to hate and anger when this happens. Letfs
face the situation realistically. We know how warped and sick
the segregated mind is. We know that the people in Mississippi
will enforce segregation by violence as a final resort.
I think we will deceive ourselves if we don*t say
that, if we are not honest with the people who are going out on
demonstrations. Then, after you have admitted this, you try to
say "nevertheless, you must be non-violent." I myself have many
times seen people and I say, "please, donft go on this demon
stration. You are too angry, you are too nervous, you are too
(King - Cross) 1154 .
upset. Wait and go tomorrow, or we need somebody to answer the
telephone.** Because some people could not, I felt, could not
respond in a Christian, loving, non-violent way. And other
people did the same thing. Everybody you have mentioned just
about - Medger Evers, John Salter, Willie Ludden, David Dennis -
all of these people would encourage some people who had the
spiritual resources and strength to be non-violent to demon
strate, and we would encourage others who did not, not to do
s o .
In other parts of America you may not have to worry
about this, because most Americans can assemble to protest
grievances at will. We had to be concerned about these things.
Q. You attended the march incident of the funeral of
Medger Evers, did you not?
A. Yes, r did.
Q. The City issued a permit for that march which was
to begin at the Masonic Temple on Lynch Street and go to the
funeral home which was near the north end of Farish Street, is
that correct?
A. r heard that.
Q. Didnvt you march?
A. Yes.
Q. Lsn*t that the course you marched?
A. Yes, that is precisely what happened. The funeral
procession went quietly from the Masonic Temple to the funeral
(King - Cross) 1155 .
home and dispersed.
Q. All right. Now about how many people marched?
About five thousand, didnTt they?
A. That’s what I heard.
Q. As that march followed its intended route from the
Masonic Temple on Lynch Street to Farish Street and up Farish
Street, the police had blocked off every side street which the
march had to pass so that there would be no traffic interfering
with the march, hadnTt they?
A. I don’t know why the police blocked it.
Q. Are you telling the Court that you don’t know that
police kept traffic away from that march so that it could be
conducted in the manner and spirit in which it was intended?
A. Yes. The police were there at the crossings. 1
don’t know why they were there.
Q. No traffic interfered with the march, did it?
A. No, no traffic interfered with the march.
Q. As the police stood at the crossings which the march
passed, didn’t they have their caps and helmets removed in a
respectful manner?
A. I think I remember noticing some of them did. T
don’t think all of them did. L don’t know whether it was in
a respectful manner or just a hot day. If they were doing
it in a respectful manner then T think they are to be commended
for this L wasn’t particularly noticing what the police were
(King - Cross) 1156 .
doing. Medger Evers was my friend. I don’t remember the
police - I remember the police were not interfering with the
march.
Q. The police were trying to help with the march as
much as they could, so far as you could tell, weren’t they?
A. Yes, if this is what they were there to do.
Q. What is the approximate distance from the Masonic
Temple to the Funeral Home on Farish Street?
A. Probably two miles.
Q. After that march had proceeded that two miles with
the police protection that you have described, I want to ask
you if the last four or five hundred people in that march on
Farish Street didn’t turn on the police and throw bricks and
bottles and anything they could get their hands on, at the
police in that area?
A. I understand that situation very well and that’s
absolutely not true. They did not do that.
Q. Did you witness it?
A. Yes, I did. I did not witness the bricks and
bottles, this thing that you are talking about; I witnessed
the end of the funeral procession which was quiet, dignified,
people crying as they came up to the funeral home. They
certainly were not doing any of the things you mentioned,
Q. Well could you explain to the Court how fourteen
policemen were injured on that occasion on Farish Street that
(King C r o s s ) 1 1 5 7 .
day?
A. r can explain a few things that I heard.
Q. No, I am asking you only what you saw. Weren’t you
there?
A. I was there when the funeral procession ended, and
no police were injured when it ended. I heard that about a
half an hour later after the police had beaten a number of
people that some people were injured. Certainly nobody in the
funeral procession did anything like that. They came to the
funeral home. They were crying. People were waiting outside
the funeral home to go in and view the body once more before
it was sent to Arlington. Some people stood around quietly
and some'people ---
Q. (Interrupting) And you didn’t see a single brick
thrown or a single bottle thrown?
A. No, I was around for about a half an hour and I was
arrested on the second floor office --
Q. (interrupting) I will get to that in just a minute,
A. No. I didn’t see a single bottle thrown or brick
thrown.
Q. Don’t you
Attorney Generals of
that march, and came
by a thrown brick?
know that John Doar, one of the Assistant
the United States, was participating in
very near getting seriously injured himself
A. The way you are phrasing that does not explain the
(King - Cross) 1 1 5 8 .
situation. There was a brick throwing incident about thirty
or forty minutes after the funeral procession had ended, after
another spontaneous demonstration had started, after a large
group of people had stood in the street saying, jail us, jail
us, ready to go to jail, still singing quietly, then the
police turned with dogs and guns and chased them down the street.
Q. Did you see that?
A. Yes, I saw that. A number of people were injured
and I think about forty minutes after this, after the police
had pushed the people back about two blocks, then the tension
was such that people, not those who were demonstrating, but
people began to throw bricks and bottles, a few. By this
time--
Q. You did see some bricks and bottles thrown?
A. 1 had been arrested by this time. I was arrested
about half an hour after the last person in the procession,
after the funeral procession was over. There were certainly no
bricks and bottles thrown in that period although there was
police action.
Q. Are you telling the Court that the people involved
in the throwing of bricks and bottles on Farish Street were
not parties participating in the march for Medger Evers' funeral?
A. 1 think that's a very, very apt description. The
people who throw bottles and bricks were not people involved
in the march for the funeral. The march had been conducted
(King - Cross) 1 1 5 9 .
just as we planned it, just as peacefully as we had planned
it. You had given us permission to do it. I think we marched
the five thousand people peacefully and could have done so on
any occasion that the police in Jackson were willing to give
us protection to do so.
I think our assembly on the steps of this building
could have been just as peaceful as that march was had we been
protected, -I think any of the demonstrations I have described
if the police had protected us. At the points where the police
made the arrests there weren’t even any hostile white crowds.
The funeral was just as planned.
Q. And you were arrested that day on the second floor
of an office building there on Pearl Street, weren’t you?
A. Right.
Q. And when the police came up to arrest you, you got
down on the floor and they had to bodily carry you out of that
building, didn’t they?
A. They dragged me out.
Q. They dragged you out - how?
A. Just pulling me.
Q. You wouldn’t go?
A. I didn’t know what they were coming in the building
for. I said do you have a warrant to come into this building?
As I remember it, T think I was cursed at that time. Whereupon
I knelt and began praying. I had a prayer book with me that T
(King - Cross) 1 1 6 0 .
had at the funeral and I opened it and was trying to read
it.
Q. Whether you were praying or not, you got down on
the floor and wouldn’t get up and they had to carry you out.
A. I will not cooperate with anyone doing the things
the Jackson police are doing. This is a religious and moral
conviction. If I felt that; I had been doing something to
warrant their bursting into this office and then to accuse me
of something that had gone on two and a half days earlier, when
they had been following me for two and a half days. I took no
part in the situation, and to remove myself as far as I could
from the situation, I opened the prayer book and tried to read
from it.
Q. The expression you have just used pretty well
describes your attitude, doesn’t it, Reverend King, that --
A. (Interrupting) I was just describing ---
Q. (Continuing) Just a minute. Just a minute — that
you will not cooperate with the Jackson police?
A. When they are doing the type things they were doing
that day. I asked did they have a warrant to enter the
building. I was cursed and told that it did not matter. At
that point, I think not only as a matter of religious convic
tion but I think I wouldn’t be showing the proper respect to
American law which this country was built on if I co
operated with the police in doing the kind of things which
(King - Cross) 1161
they were doing. They had no warrant for ray arrest. They
had no warrant to enter the building.
Q. Are you continuing to encourage young negroes in
this town to demonstrate on public streets?
A. It hasn’t been discussed recently.
Q. We are discussing it now. I am asking you, are
you continuing --
A. You asked me would I continue.
Q. No, are you today continuing to advise young negroes
to demonstrate?
A. I haven’t talked to anybody today.
Q. Have you done it recently?
A. No.
Q. Have you given up the idea of encouraging them to
demonstrate?
A. No.
Q. You intend to continue to do so?
A. O.k., yes.
MU. WATKINS:
That’s all
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1162 .
MRS .
A.
MORRIS :
Q. I have one question, have you ever
A. No .
Lassiter, Dir.
resisted arrest?
MRS. MORRIS:
I have no further questions.
(Witness excused)
THE COURT:
. ... » •- • * •* •
Who do you have?
MR, BELL:
Albert Lassiter, Your Honor, the deputies are bringing
him in, but I would say at the outset that his testimony is of
the type which on some witnesses you have permitted
I would like to make an offer to you as to
what the testimony concerns before, —
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. BELL:
His testimony concerns an arrest at the public library
in March of 1961 and, of course, it is introduced for
the purpose of showing the policy of the defendants who arrest
persons in situations like this, not only during the period of
demonstrations, but anytime anyone goes against the policy of
segregationists.
MR. WATKINS:
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1163 •
A. Lassiter, Dir.
Your Honor, we object to the library testimony with
reference to the library arrest in 1961 as not being within the
issues involved in this case.
THE COURT:
All right. I will sustain that objection and let you
make substantially the same proffer that you made in the previous
matter. Is that what you wish to do?
MR. BELL:
Yes, if you are not going to allow us to put it on,
Your Honor, then we will make that proffer.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. WATKINS:
Your Honor, while counsel is looking for that, let me
point out that there are some 15 witnesses who have been held
here since 1:30 who have businesses to conduct and things to do
and they came here at 1:30 and were told that they would be used
If they are not going to be used for the rest of the afternoon,
I think they ought to be excused.
THE COURT:
Well, of course, I don*t know what counsel’s plan is.
What is your plan about that?
MR, BELL:
We hope to use them, — we would have used them had
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1 1 6 4 .
A. Lassiter, Dir.
we gotten into that aspect of the case. As you know, they spent
an hour on cross examination of one of the witnesses whose
testimony on direct was something like 10 or 12 minutes. Those
are the things that we don’t have any power over. We are trying
to do the best we can in not inconveniencing these people as I
think the record shows, but we are going into that aspect of the
case now —
THE COURT:
Do you have a list of those that you want to call this
afternoon?
MR. BELL:
Yes, I think we will probably be able to go through
all of this, Your Honor.
MR. BELL:
The witness, Albert Lassiter, L-a-s-e-i-t-e-r, a
student at Tougaloo College, and a resident of Vicksburg, Mis
sissippi, if permitted to testify, would have stated that on
March 27th, 1961, he, a Negro, and others went to the public
library in Jackson on State Street and entered for the purpose
of using the facilities. They also entered to protest against
the policy as they knew it, which policy limited use of said
library to persons of the white race.
After five or ten minutes, during which the few p e r
sons inside the library paid no particular attention to the
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1165 •
group, policemen came in and asked the witness whether or not he
knew where the Negro library was located and indicated that he
would show him, and escorted him out of the library. Another
police officer ordered all the students out; no one moved, and
all were placed under arrest. They were charged with breach of
the peace, released on $500.00 bond, were subsequently found
guilty in the City Court and fined $100.00 and 30 days in jail,
which jail sentence was suspended. The cases are on appeal and
to the knowledge of the witness the cases have not been called
to trial.
THE COURT;
Do you want to note your objection in the record?
MR, WATKINS:
Yes sir, we object to that, as far as the evidence in
this case, as not being within the issues of the case.
THE COURT;
Yes, I think so. 1*11 explain my views , I
don’t believe it’s within the ambit of the pleadings.
DR. A. D. BEITTEL
being called as a witness by the plaintiff and after first
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
MR « BELL•
Q. Will you state your full name please?
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1166 .
A. D. Beittel, J)ir.
A. A. D. Beittel, B-e~i-t-t-e-l,
Q« And your residence?
A. Tougaloo, Mississippi.
Q. And your occupation or profession?
A. President of Tougaloo College.
Q. And where is that College located?
A. At Tougaloo, Mississippi, a short distance from the
city limits of Jackson.
Q. Tell us whether you are or are not familiar with the
various policies: of the Tougaloo College with respect to the
students, and their conduct, and their participation in activi
ties?
A . I am.
Q. Tell us, if you can, what is the policy of Tougaloo
College as to student participation on one side or another of
the issue of racial discrimination?
A. Our policy is the policy, I take it, of any good
college to allow a large measure of freedom to both faculty mem
bers and students. So long as the activity of the faculty
member or student does not interfere with their responsibility
to the college, we feel that as citizens of the United States
it’s their own decision as to their participation.
Q. Now, tell us, if you know, whether or not the college,
as an institution, has taken any part in the current racial protests
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1167 .
A. D. Beittel, Dir.
as they happen in the Jackson area?
A. It has not, we are an educational institution.
Q. Tell us, if you can, whether or not the college has
taken any steps to prevent students or faculty members from
taking part in such activities?
A. Only with the reservations I have already made.
Q. And so your answer would be —
A. That is, we have not had any prohibition of activities
but we have made it clear that people have responsibility of the
college as both students and faculty members which we expect
them to carry out.
Q. Now, the student body at Tougaloo is primarily Negro
or white?
A. Primarily Negro, but we have white students also.
Q. And the faculty at Tougaloo College is primarily Negro
or white?
A. Roughly, 50-50.
Q. Tell us, if you know Dr. Beittel, whether or not the
policy in reference to student and faculty participation in
racial demonstrations of protest is well-known or little known
in the community?
A. 11 m afraid I couldn^t answer that clearly. I don*t
know what people in the Jackson community think. I think in
general no effort has been made to conceal the policies under
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1 1 6 8 .
A. D . Beittel, Dir,
which we operate.
Q. As a result of this policy, has the Tougaloo College
been subjected to any actions or other response from either
governmental or private individuals?
A. There has been some response on the part of private
individuals, yes.
Q. Well, has there been any response by officials of the
local government?
A. Yes, I suppose, there was an attempt to get an injunc
tion against the College to prevent the College from doing things
which it has not done.
Q. Is that the case that is still pending in court?
A, It is still pending in court, the Chancery Court.
Q. Now, as the result of the filing of that injunction,
was there an effort by the College to obtain counsel to defend
the suit?
A . Yes.
Q. And can you tell us what the result of those efforts
were?
A. Well, we — let me put it this way — a member of our
Board of Trustees was convinced that it is good legal practice
that anybody charged with any crime or offense can get good
counsel. I understand this is one of the policies of the
American Bar Association and so he said that he was quite sure
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A. D. Beittel, Dir.
this Member of our Board of Trustees, that we could get good
counsel in Jackson to defend the College in this suit.
He investigated. He found out that he was wrong, that
so far as we know none of the better lawyers, white lawyers in the
City of Jackson, will participate in the defense of a case of
this kind.
MR. WATKINS:
Excuse me, Dr. Beittel
want to object to this. This is
as this witness is concerned. I
testimony that he does not ——
THE COURT:
Doctor, you can only testify what you know of your own
personal knowledge and 1*11 let him ask you that question again.
MR e B ELLt
Q. I ask you, Dr. Beittel, whether or not you received,
as President of the College, a report from your Trustees who had
been designated to locate and hire legal counsel for the purpose
of defending your College in this suit?
MR. WATKINS:
May it please the Court, we object. The Trustee
will be the witness who should present that testimony.
THE COURT:
Well, 1*11 let him tell what the report was, but he
1169.
. If it please the Court, I
apparently all hearsay as far
think it is apparent from his
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A. D. Beittel, Dir.
was going into some detail about the experience of the Trustee
and that’s what I was sustaining the objection on.
MR. WATKINS:
That was the report, sir, that he couldn’t find a
lawyer —
THE COURT:
Well, I’ll let him say that.
THE WITNESS:
A. I did receive a report from the Trustee that he was
unable to find a lawyer of the kind suggested.
MR. BELL:
Q. Did the Trustee indicate in the report what reasons
were given why this lawyer could not be found?
MR. WATKINS:
If it please the Court, this is hearsay.
THE COURT:
I’ll sustain that objection.
MR. BELL:
Even if it were in the report, Your Honor?
THE COURT:
Sustain the objection.
MR , B ELL:
Q. Did Tougaloo College finally retain local counsel?
A . Yes.