United States v. Scotland Neck City Board of Education Appendix Vol. 1
Public Court Documents
June 16, 1969 - October 12, 1971
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. United States v. Scotland Neck City Board of Education Appendix Vol. 1, 1969. 9fe4a5ca-c79a-ee11-be37-000d3a574715. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/a9071656-3004-4c40-a224-43bb212e22b9/united-states-v-scotland-neck-city-board-of-education-appendix-vol-1. Accessed May 05, 2025.
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A PPEN D IX
Vol. I (pp. 1-418)
In T h e
&uprone fflmtrt of % InxUb States
October T erm , 1971
No. 70-130
U n it ed S tates of A merica ,
Petitioner,— v.— ’
S cotland N eck City B oard of E ducation , et a l .,
Respondents.
No. 70-187
P attie B lack Cotton , et a l .,
_ y __ Petitioners.
S cotland N eck City B oard of E ducation , et a l .,
Respondents.
ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT
ON APPEALS FOR THE FOURTH CIRCUIT
PETITIONS FOR WRITS OF CERTIORARI FILED APRIL 22, 1971
AND MAY 20, 1971
CERTIORARI GRANTED OCTOBER 12, 1971
In T h e
Suprottp (Emtrl of % Hnitpli Elates
October Term , 1971
No. 70-130
U n it ed S tates of A merica ,
■v.—
Petitioner,
Scotland N eck City B oard of E ducation , et a l .,
Respondents.
No. 70-187
P attie B lack Cotton, et a l .,
Petitioners.
— v.—
S cotland N eck City B oard of E ducation , et a l .,
Respondents.
ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT
ON APPEALS FOR THE FOURTH CIRCUIT
INDEX TO APPENDIX
Certified copy of docket entries...... ...............................
Complaint ______________________________
Plaintiff s notice of motion and motion for a preliminary
injunction ________________________________
Plaintiff’s notice of motion and motion for leave to join an
additional party defendant and to file an amended com
plaint _________________________________
Response to plaintiff’s motion for a preliminary injunction,
motion for leave to join an additional party defendant]
and motion to file an amended complaint
Answer of all defendants with the exception of Halifax
County Board of Education ____________
Page
1
26
39
41
43
47
ii INDEX TO APPENDIX
Page
Response to plaintiff’s motion for a preliminary injunction,
motion for leave to join an additional party defendant,
and motion to file an amended complaint_______________ 51
Answer of Halifax County Board of Education____________ 56
Notice of hearing by Judge Butler ______________________ 60
Order that Clerk file amended complaint and U. S. Marshal
serve copies upon defendants__________________________ 61
Amended complaint ___________________________________ 62
Answer to amended complaint by all defendants except Hali
fax County Board of Education______________________ 69
Answer of defendant Scotland Neck Board of Education___ 72
Transcript of hearing on August 21-22, 1969_____________ 76
Deposition of Ferd Harrison____________________________ 96
Deposition of C. M. Moore, Jr_____ _____________________ 117
Deposition of Craig Phillips------------------------------------------ 153
Deposition of W. Henry Overman_______________________ 218
Deposition of Henry Harrison--------------------------------------- 365
Deposition of Frank P. Shields.-------------------------------------- 419
Deposition of Aubrey Powell----- ...---------------------------------- 460
Deposition of F. Boyd Bailey----------------------------------------- 493
Affidavit of J. L. Pierce------------------------------------------------- 580
Plaintiff’s Exhibit #1 ------------------------------------------------- 585
Plaintiff’s Exhibit # 2 ------------------------------------------------- 587
Plaintiff’s Exhibit #3 ------------------------------------------------- 679
Plaintiff’s Exhibit #5 ------------------------------------------------- 681
Plaintiff’s Exhibit # 7 ------------------------------------------------- 683
Plaintiff’s Exhibit #8 ------------- 684
Plaintiff’s Exhibit #9 ________________________________ 686
Plaintiff’s Exhibit # 1 0 ________________________________ 687
Plaintiff’s Exhibit # 1 1 ------------------------------------------------- 688
Plaintiff’s Exhibit # 1 3 ________________________________ 727
Plaintiff’s Exhibit # 1 4 ________________________________ 746
Plaintiff’s Exhibit # 1 7 ________________________________ 759
Plaintiff’s Exhibit # 1 8 ________________________________ 761
Order dismissing certain defendants____________________ 788
Memorandum opinion of Judge Larkins__________________ 790
Amended answer of the Scotland Neck City Board of Edu
cation ______________________________________________ 793
INDEX TO APPENDIX
Motion of defendant Scotland Neck City Board of Educa
tion that order be entered modifying temporary injunc
tion ________________________________________________ 798
Order allowing Scotland Neck City Board of Education to
use private donations for expenses and fees incurred____ 800
Motion of Robert Morgan, Attorney General of North Caro
lina, to intervene in this action in behalf of the state of
North Carolina, as party defendant___________________ 801
Order allowing intervention of Robert Morgan, Attorney
General of North Carolina, in behalf of the state of North
Carolina ____________________________________________ 804
Answer of Robert Morgan, Attorney General of North Caro
lina, in behalf of the state of North Carolina____________ 806
Order allowing motion of Halifax County to be dismissed
as to the question of constitutionality of the Act creating
Scotland Neck U nit__________________________________ 812
Answer to plaintiff’s interrogatories by defendant Halifax
County Board of Education___________________________ 814
Memorandum opinion and order of Judge Larkins________ 928
Order amending order of 11/24/69---------------------------------- 925
Motion for leave to intervene by additional plaintiffs Pattie
Black Cotton and Edward M. Francis, public school teachers
of Halifax County, and others ----------------------------------- 926
Transcript of hearing on December 17, 1969______________ 931
Memorandum opinion and order allowing motion to inter
vene _______________________________________________ 994
Complaint in intervention________________________________ 1000
Answer of defendant Scotland Neck City Board of Educa
tion to the complaint in intervention___________________ 1029
Answer to complaint in intervention by board of county
commissioners of Halifax County_______________________ 1046
Answer of defendant Halifax County Board of Education
to the complaint in intervention_______________________ 1051
Order that motion of defendants that effective date of imple
mentation be delayed until on or about 6/1/70 is allowed;
“Proposed Interim Plan” of defendant Halifax County
Board of Education be implemented by board no later
than 6/1/70 _________________________________________ 1058
Opinion and order that further implementation of Chapter
31 of the 1969 Session Laws of North Carolina is perma
nently enjoined ______________________________________ 1062
Page
IV INDEX TO APPENDIX
Judgment that Chapter 31 of the 1969 Session Laws of
North Carolina creating Scotland Neck Administrative
Unit is declared to be unconstitutional and null and void.
Defendants, their respective officers, agents, etc., are
permanently enjoined from all further proceedings pur
suant to said statute_________________________________ 1085
Amended order, amending order of district court dated
5/18/70 ____________________________________________ 1086
Notice of appeal by Scotland Neck City Board of Education _ 1087
Notice of appeal to the United States Court of Appeals for
the Fourth Circuit by Robert Morgan, Attorney General
of North Carolina, North Carolina State Board of Educa
tion, and Dr. A. Craig Phillips, State Superintendent of
Public Instruction___________________________________ 1088
Motion of defendant Halifax County Board of Education for
further amendment to “Proposed Interim Plan” _________ 1089
Plaintiff’s response to defendant’s motion to amend interim
desegregation plan approved May 19, 1970______________ 1092
Defendant Scotland Neck City Board of Education’s Answer
to motion of Halifax County Board of Education________ 1094
Plaintiffs’ in intervention opposition to defendant’s motion
to amend interim desegregation plan approved May 19,
1970 _______________________________________________ 1096
Order denying motion of defendants to amend the order
of May 19, 1970, with respect to the operation of Scotland
Neck School and Brawley School (Judge Larkins)______ 1098
Affidavit of W. Henry Overman dated September 15, 1970
(Enrollment Statistics)_______________________________ 1100
Affidavit of W. Henry Overman dated December 2, 1970
(Enrollment Statistics)_______________________________ 1102
Opinion and judgment of the United States Court of Appeals
for the Fourth Circuit dated March 23, 1971_____________ 1104
Opinion of the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth
Circuit in Wright V. Council of the City of Emporia, March
23, 1971 ___________________________________________ 1119
Order staying the mandate dated April 21, 1971___________ 1151
Order of Supreme Court of October 12, 1971 allowing certi
orari in No. 70-130__________________________________ 1152
Order of Supreme Court of October 12, 1971 allowing certi
orari in No. 70-187___________________________________ 1152
Affidavit of W. Henry Overman dated October 14, 1971 (En
rollment Statistics)___________________________________ 1153
Halifax County map indicating the school districts and dif
ferent schools_______________________________________ 1155
Page
1
CIVIL DOCKET
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
DATE PROCEEDINGS
6/16/69 Fil. & ent. COMPLAINT—Alleged violation of
Civil Rights—Plff. prays that Court find pro
visions of Chapt. 31, ’69 Sessions Laws in vio
lation of Equal Protection Clause of 14th
Amendment & enter order enjoining defts., etc.
from giving any force or effect to provisions
of Chapt. 31, & from doing anything or act
which may be called for in the provisions of
Chapt. 31.—Plff. further prays court enter or
der enjoining deft. Halifax County Bd. of Ed.,
etc., from failing or refusing to afford equal
educational opportunities to all students without
regard to race, & requiring the Board to take
prompt steps toward assigning pupils to schools
without regard to their race on basis of unitary
geographic attendance zones, etc.—Plff. further
prays that defts. be ordered to see such technical
assistance as may be necessary from Office of
Ed. of Dept, of H.E.W. for preparation & sub
mission of plan to accomplish this result at
earliest practicable date. 7 cc to U.S. Marshal
for service (Exhibit “A” Attached)
Issued Summons with Complaint to U.S. Marshal
—orig. & 7 cc to U.S. Marshal
7 / 1/69 Fil. & ent. U.S. Marshal’s Return on Summons
w/complaint: On 6//18/69 at Scotland Neck:
Service made on Frank P. Shields, J. W. An
drews & J. I. Walston. Endeavor made on this
date to serve F. G. Shearin & Ferd L. Harrison
without success. On 6/19/69 at Scotland Neck
service made on Ferd L. Harrison as Mayor and
2
DATE PROCEEDINGS
as Chairman of Bd. of Commrs. of Town of
Scotland Neck, N.C. On 6/19/69 at Littleton,
N. C., service made on C. M. Moore, Jr., Chair
man, Halifax Co. Bd. of Ed. On 6/26/69 at
Scotland Neck, N.C., service made on F. G.
Shearin.
7 / 7/69 Fil. w /Judge Larkins—STIPULATION & ORDER
extending time within which deft. Halifax Co.
Bd. of Ed. may file answer or otherwise plead
to & including 8/8/69. (LARKINS, J.) (Civ.
O. B.#VI,P.1916) 1 cc to U.S. Atty.
Fil. w /Judge Larkins—MOTION and ORDER ex
tending time within which defts. Harrison, as
Mayor of Town of Scotland Neck; Andrews,
Shearin, Shields & Walston, as members of Bd.
of Commrs. of Town of Scotland Neck; and
Town of Scotland Neck, a public body corpo
rate, may have to file answer or otherwise to
and including 8/7/69. plead (LARKINS, J.)
(Civ.O.B.#VI,P.1917) 1 cc to U.S. Atty. Cy. to
Mr. Josey by Judge.
7/10/69 Fil. & ent. PLAINTIFF’S NOTICE OF DEPO
SITION of W. Henry Overman, Benjamin F.
Currin, Fred L. Owen & Paul H. Johnston on
7/14/69 at 9:30 a.m., in offices of Halifax Co.
Bd. of Ed., Halifax, N.C., by plff. Also Depo
sitions of Aubrey Powell, Franklin Bailey &
Harrison, Ferd L., to be taken on 7/15/69 at
9:30 a.m., at City Hall, Scotland Neck, N.C., by
plff., along with deposition of Frank P. Shields.
w/Cert. of Service
7/14/69 Fil. & ent. PLAINTIFF’S NOTICE OF DEPOSI
TION of Dr. Craig Phillips on 7/16/69 at 3:00
p.m. in offices of State Superintendent of Public
Instruction, Raleigh, N.C., of Claude K. Josey on
7/15/69 at 2:00 p.m. at the City Hall, Scotland
Neck, N.C.—by plff. w/Cert. of Service
DATE PROCEEDINGS
7/17/69 Fil. & ent. PLAINTIFF’S NOTICE OF MOTION
AND MOTION FOR A PRELIMINARY IN
JUNCTION—asking to be heard at time and
place to be set by the Court. (Cy. to J. Larkins)
Fil. & ent. Plaintiff’s MEMORANDUM OF
POINTS AND AUTHORITIES (Clk.’s cy. to
Judge)
Fil. & ent. PLAINTIFF’S NOTICE OF MOTION
AND MOTION FOR LEAVE TO JOIN AN AD
DITIONAL PARTY DEFENDANT AND TO
FILE AN AMENDED COMPLAINT—Notice
that motion is to be heard 8/1B/69 at 10:00 a.m.,
in courtroom of U.S. Dist. Ct., Fed. Bldg.,
Trenton, N.C., or as soon thereafter as can be
heard. (Clk.’s cy, to J. Larkins)
Fil. & ent. Return on Civ. Subpoena: Executed on
7/13/69 at Scotland Neck, N.C., by service on
Henry Lee Harrison. Served by Dept, of Justice
Atty. Richard Bourne
7/23/69 Fil. & ent. U.S. Marshal’s Return on Deposition
Subpoena: Executed on 7/15/69 a t Raleigh,
N.C., upon Dr. Craig Phillips
Fil. & ent. Deposition Subpoena Return by U.S.
Marshal: Executed on 7/11/69 at Scotland Neck,
N.C., upon Frank P. Shields.
8/14/69 Fil. w/Judge Butler—NOTICE OF HEARING in
U.S. Dist. Ct.Rm., in Post Office Bldg., Raleigh,
N. C., on Thursday, 8/21/69 at 10:00 A.M. be
fore Butler and Larkins, U.S. Dist. Judges.
(Case consolidated with Alvin Turner, et al vs.
The W arrenton City Bd. of Ed., et a l)—Counsel
directed to submit a copy of brief or memor
andum in support of their respective contentions
to each of the dist. judges on or before noon
on Wednesday, 8/20/69. (BUTLER, J.) (Civ.
O. B .# VI,P.1929) Copy to attys. of record from
J. Butler’s Office. (Orig. to J. Larkins for file)
4
DATE PROCEEDINGS
8/20/69 Fil. & ent. ANSWER TO AMENDED COM
PLAINT by all defts. w/exception of Halifax
County Bd. of Ed. & Scotland Neck City Bd. of
Ed.—praying that relief as prayed for by the
plff. be denied and that plff. be taxed with costs
& disbursements of this action & further pray
that this action be dismissed as against them as
set forth in its motion heretofore made. Cert,
of Ser. attached thereto. (Orig. held in Raleigh
office to be placed in file on 8/21/69 at hearing.)
Fil. & ent. ANSWER TO AMENDED COM
PLAINT by Scotland Neck City Board of Edu
cation praying that Court give additional time
for them to file answer to & including 9/5/69;
that trial of this action on its merits not be
scheduled until this deft, can, through dis
covery procedures, prepare for trial; & that in
any event this action be dismissed and plff. de
nied each & every prayer in amended complaint
& plff. be taxed with costs & disbursements. Cert,
of Service attached thereto. (Orig. held in
Raleigh office to be placed in file on 8/21/69 at
hearing.)
Received in this office four copies of Brief of
plaintiff for Clerk’s file and for the use of the
Judges at hearing.
Fil. & ent. MOTION TO INTERVENE by Mary-
etta Richardson, in behalf of herself, & of her
infant children, Montenia, Timmie, Charlotte &
Jimmy, et al. Exhibit A, Pleading in Interven
tion, attached thereto
Fil. & ent. CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE as to
Motion to Intervene & Exhibit A.
8/22/69 Fil. & Ent. AFFIDAVIT of WILLIAM ROBERT
RICHARDSON; 1 copy.
5
DATE PROCEEDINGS
8/22/69 Fil. & ent. U. S. Marshal’s Return on Civil Sub
poenas: Executed on 8/18/69 at Raleigh, N.C.,
by service on Dr. A. Craig Phillips. Service upon
Macon L. Moore on 8/16/69 at Littleton, N.C.
Service upon Frank P. Shields on 8/16/69 at
Scotland Neck, N.C. Service upon Franklin B.
Bailey on 8/19/69 at Scotland Neck, N.C. Serv
ice upon Henry L. Harrison on 8/16/69 at Scot
land Neck, N.C. Service on C. B. Martin 8/19/69
at Tarboro, N.C. w/check for $27.00. Service
on J. W. Talley 8/19/69 at Roanoke Rapids,
N.C., w/check for $27.60. Service on Hugh D.
Randall 8/20/69 at Supt.’s Office, Henderson
ville, N.C. w/check of $45.10. by J. Paul Teal,
Jr., U.S. Marshal, W.D.N.C., by Thomas J.
Greene, DUSM. Service on Vernon L. Dusen-
bury 8/20/69 a t High Sch. Bldg., Tryon, N.C.,
w/check for $45.00 by J. Paul Teal, Jr., U.S.M.,
W.D.N.C., by Thomas J. Greene, DUSM. En
deavor made to serve Robert Clary at Roanoke
Rapids, N.C., on 8/19/69 & learned that subject
was out of State & would be out for a week.
Atty. Josey’s office (Scotland Neck) advised
8/20/69.
Fil. & ent. U.S. Marshal’s Return on Civ. Subpoena
to Produce Document: W. Henry Overman
served on 8/16/69 at Roanoke Rapids, N.C.
Fil. & ent. U.S. Marshal’s Return on Summons
w/Amended Complaint: Following served on
8/16/69: Macon L. Moore, Chairman, Halifax
Co. Bd. of Ed., at Littleton, N.C. J. A. Andrews,
F. G. Shearin & D. E. Josey, Jr., Bd. Members
of Bd. of Commr’s. of Town of Scotland Neck,
at Scotland Neck, N.C. Ferd L. Harrison served
as Mayor & as Chairman of Bd. of Commrs.
Town of Scotland Neck, N.C., at Scotland Neck,
N.C. Frank P. Shields, Chairman Scotland Neck
City Bd. of Ed. at Scotland Neck
6
DATE PROCEEDINGS
7/23/69 Fil. & ent. U.S. Marshal’s Return on Deposition
Subpoena: Executed 7/11/69 at Scotland Neck,
N.C., upon Ferd Harrison, Mayor of Scotland
Neck.
Fil. & ent. DEPOSITION SUBPOENA Return by
U.S. Marshal: Executed on 7/11/69 at Scot
land Neck, N.C., upon Franklin Bailey.
Fil. & ent. U.S. Marshall’s Return on Deposition
Subpoena: Executed on 7/11/69 at Scotland
Neck, N.C., upon Aubrey Powell.
Fil. & ent. U.S. Marshall’s Return on Deposition
Subpoena: Executed on 7/11/69 at Littleton,
N.C., upon Paul H. Johnson.
Fil. & ent. U.S. Marshal’s Return on Deposition
Subpoena: Executed on 7/11/69 at Littleton,
N.C., upon Fred L. Owen.
Fil. & ent. U.S. Marshal’s Return on Deposition
Subpoena: Executed on 7/11/69 at Halifax,
N.C., upon Benjamin Currin. Return on 7/11/69
at Halifax, N.C. upon W. Henry Overman by
delivering coy to Benjamin Currin Asst. Supt.
of Schools.
7/31/69 Fil. & ent. PLAINTIFF’S NOTICE OF DEPOSI
TION of Dr. A. Craig Phillips, in office of State
Superintendent of Public Instruction, Ed. Bldg.,
Raleigh, N.C., at 3:00 p.m. on Monday, 8/4/69
as well as depositions of Franklin Bailey & C.
Macon Moore at office of Home Building & Loan
Asso., East 10th St., Scotland Neck, N.C., at
9:30 a.m. on 8/5/69. w/Cert. of Ser.
8 / 4/69 Fil. & ent. RESPONSE TO PLAINTIFF’S MO
TION FOR A PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION,
MOTION FOR LEAVE TO JOIN AN AD
DITIONAL PARTY DEFENDANT, AND MO
TION TO FILE AN AMENDED COMPLAINT
by each deft, with exception of Halifax County
Board of Education. w/Cert. of Service
7
DATE PROCEEDINGS
8/ 8/69
Fil. & ent. ANSWER of all defts. w/exception of
Halifax Co. Bd. of Ed. praying tha t action be
dismissed—that if action is not dismissed as
against these answering defts. for reasons men
tioned in 1 thru 3 in Answer, that the Court
together with a jury hear all evidence and deter
mine all issues & make declaration that Chapt.
31 of ’69 Session Laws of N.C. is not in vio.
of 14th Amendment to U.S. Constitution & that
action be dismissed—that costs and disburse
ments of action be taxed against plff. w/Cert.
of Service
Issued NOTICE OF HEARING ON MOTIONS at
Raleigh, N.C., on 8/25/69 at 2:30 p.m., or as
soon thereafter as counsel can be heard, in the
U.S. Courtroom, Post Office Bldg. Cy. to Atty.
Gen. of U.S., U.S. Atty., Schwelg, Dept, of
Justice Atty., Kennedy, Dept, of Justice Atty.,
Atty. Crew and Atty Josey—mailed by certified
mail.
Fil. & ent. Defendant Halifax County Bd. of Ed.
RESPONSE TO PLAINTIFF’S MOTION FOR
A PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION, MOTION
FOR LEAVE TO JOIN AN ADDITIONAL
PARTY DEFENDANT, AND MOTION TO
FILE AN AMENDED COMPLAINT. w/Cert.
of Ser. & Exhibit A attached
Fil. & ent. ANSWER of deft. Halifax County
Board of Education—praying that action be
dismissed and that if action is not dismissed
as against this deft, for reasons set forth in
this answer, that the court together with a jury
hear all evidence & determine all issues & make
necessary declaration & finding raised in this
action; that costs & disbursement of this action
be taxed against plff. w/Cert. of Ser. & Exhibit
A attached.
8
DATE PROCEEDINGS
8/15/69 Fil. & Ent. ORDER that deck file amended com
plaint & U.S. Marshal serve a copy on defts. in
amended complaint, deft, shall file answer or
other pleading with respect to amended com
plaint prior to noon 8/20/69. (LARKINS, J.)
(Civ.O.B.#VI,P.1928) 8 cc to U.S. Marshal for
service along with complaint. (Orig. to J.
Larkins for file)
Fil. & ent. AMENDED COMPLAINT—w/Exhibit
A attached. 8 cc to U.S. Marshal for service.
(Orig. to J. Larkins for file along w/Clk.’s cy.
for his convenience)
Issued Summons w/Complaint & Order to U.S.
Marshal for service—Orig. & 8 cc to Marshal
Made endeavor to serve J. I. Walston at Scot
land Neck, N.C. & learned deft, on vacation &
could not be located. On 8/19/69 at Scotland
Neck, N.C., served J. I. Walston, Member of
Bd. of Commrs. of Town of Scotland Neck, N.C.
8/25/69 Fil. & ent. ORDER—that motion to dismiss by
defts. Ferd L. Harrison, J. A. Andrews, F. G.
Shearin, J. I. Walston, D. E. Josey, Jr. & Town
of Scotland Neck, is allowed; deft. Scotland
Neck City Bd. of Ed., its officers, etc. are en
joined from taking any action pursuant to pro
visions of Chap. 31 pending final determination
on merits of the issues raised; pursuant to pro
visions of R.65 (c) of F.R.C.P., no security shall
be required of plff., U.S.A., & order to become
effective at 12:00 Noon, on Mon., 8/25/69,
(Judges, Larkins & Butler) (Civ.O.B.#VI,P.
1942) Cy. to Attys. Ellis, Creech & Crew. Cy.
to defts. Frank P. Shields, Chairman Scotland
Neck City Bd. of Ed., Scotland Neck, N.C. &
Macon L. Moore, Chairman Halifax Co. Bd. of
Ed., Littleton, N.C.
9
DATE PROCEEDINGS
8/25/69 Fil. & ent. MEMORANDUM OPINION (Findings
of Fact & Conclusions of Law) Filed in support
of order of this date and is included therein by
reference. (LARKINS, J.) (Civ.O.B.#VI,P.
1943) Cy. to Attys. Kennedy, Crew & Josey.
Cy. to defts. Halifax Co. Bd. of Ed., Macon L.
Moore Chairman, Littleton, N.C., Ferd L. Har
rison, Mayor & Chairman of Bd. of Commrs. of
Town of Scotland Neck; Bd. of Commrs. of
Town of Scotland Neck—J. A. Andrews, F. G.
Shearin, J. I. Walston & D. E. Josey, Jr.; Town
of Scotland Neck through Mayor & Scotland
Neck City Bd. of Ed. through Frank P. Shields,
Chrmn. Scotland Neck City Bd. of Ed.
Fil. & ent. DEPOSITION OF DR. CRAIG PHIL
LIPS taken at Raleigh, 8/4&5/69
Fil. & ent. DEPOSITION OF HENRY L. HAR
RISON taken at Halifax, N.C., 7/23/69
Fil. & ent. DEPOSITION OF FRANK P.
SHIELDS taken at Scotland Neck, N.C.,
7/24/69.
Fil. & ent. DEPOSITION OF FERD L. HAR
RISON taken at Scotland Neck, N.C., 7/24/69
Fil. & ent. DEPOSITION OF AUBREY POWELL
taken at Scotland Neck, N.C. 7/24/69
Fil. & ent. DEPOSITION OF W. HENRY OVER
MAN taken at Halifax, N.C., 7/14&15/69.
8/26/69 Fil. & ent. ORDER that deft. Scotland Neck City
Bd. of Ed. have until 5:00 p.m., 9/5/69 to file
amended answer & further ordered that copy
of same be served upon plff. as provided by
Fed. Rules Civ. Procedure. (LARKINS, J.)
(Civ.O.B.#VI,P.1944) Cy. to Attys. Josey, Ken
nedy, Crew & U.S. Atty.
Fil. & ent. DEPOSITION OF F. BOYD BAILEY
taken at Scotland Neck, N.C., 8/6 & 7/69.
10
DATE PROCEEDINGS
8/27/69 Fil. & ent. DEPOSITION OF C. M. MOORE, JR.,
taken at Scotland Neck, N.C., 8/6/69.
8/29/69 Fil. & ent. U.S. Marshal’s Return on Civ. Sub
poena: Served 8/22/69 at Raleigh, N.C., upon
Coline Jackson. On 8/20/69 at Red Springs,
N.C., service upon I. J. Wicker.
9 / 3/69 Fil. & ent. AMENDED ANSWER of The Scotland
Neck City Board of Education—praying that
Court declare to be constitutional Chap. 31 of
1969 Session Laws of N.C.; that temporary in
junction issued on 8/25/69 be dissolved; & that
Court retain jurisdiction of cause for receipt
of plan of transfer to be submitted by this deft,
to the Court & for hearing of any objection that
may be filed thereto. w/Cert. of Service
9/13/69 Fil. w/Judge Larkins, Jr. MOTION of deft. Scot
land Neck City Bd. of Ed. praying that order
be entered modifying temporary injunction or
der of 8/25/69 to effect that said deft, be allowed
to receive donations from private sources & use
such funds, together w/tuition funds now in its
hands, for repayment of amts, paid by parents
of tuition students, & further that Board be per
mitted to use said privately donated funds for
purpose of legal expenses and fees incurred &
to be incurred until this matter is finally deter
mined. Cert, of Service attached thereto
9/22/69 Fil. & ent. PLAINTIFF’S INTERROGATORIES
w/Cert. of Service (2 filed copies returned to
Atty. Kennedy)
10/ 1/69 Fil. & ent. ORDER that deft. Scotland Neck City
Bd. of Ed. be allowed to receive donations from
private sources and use such, together with
tuition funds in hand, for repayment of amts,
paid for students tuition, & further Board be
permitted to use such funds for legal expenses
11
DATE
10/ 7/69
10/13/69
10/13/69
10/15/69
10/16/69
10/30/69
10/30/69
PROCEEDINGS
& fees incurred. Clk. to serve copies of this order
upon counsel. (LARKINS & BUTLER, J.)
(Civ.O.B.#VI,P.1962) 1 cc to U.S. Atty., Attys.
Schwelb & Kennedy, atty. Crew, Josey & Joyner
Issued Notice of Pre-Trial Conference at Raleigh,
N.C., on Wed., 10/15/69 at 2:30 p.m. Cys. to
U.S. Atty., Schwelb, Kennedy, Crew, Josey &
Joyner. 1 cc to J. Larkins (Cont’d.)
Issued Notice of Pre-Trial Conference at Trenton,
N.C., on Mond., 10/20/69 at 12:00 Noon in
Judge’s Chambers, U.S. Post Office Bldg. Cy.
to Attys. Schwelb, Kennedy, Crew, Josey &
Joyner & U.S. Atty. 1 cc to J. Larkins
Fil. & ent. MOTION OF ROBERT MORGAN, AT
TORNEY GENERAL OF NORTH CAROLINA,
TO INTERVENE IN THIS ACTION IN BE
HALF OF THE STATE OF NORTH CARO
LINA, AS PARTY DEFENDANT w/Cert. of
Service, Proposed Answer and Proposed Order
attached. Copy of pleadings fwd. to J. Larkins,
w/orig. of order.
Fil. & ent. PLAINTIFF’S INTERROGATORIES
TO DEFENDANT HALIFAX COUNTY
BOARD OF EDUCATION. w/Cert. of Service
2 “filed” copies returned to U.S. Dept, of Justice.
Fil. & ent. HALIFAX COUNTY BOARD OF ED
UCATION DESEGREGATION PLAN—OC
TOBER 15, 1969. w/Map attached. (J. Larkins
furnished copy by Atty. Crew)
Fil. & ent. TRANSCRIPT OF HEARING ON MO
TION OF PLAINTIFFS FOR PRELIMINARY
INJUNCTION AND DECLARATORY JUDG
MENT (in two volumes).
Fil. & ent. EXCERPT FROM REPORTER’S
NOTES on hearing on Saturday, 8/23/69 in
Raleigh, N.C. original only.
12
DATE
10/30/69
*11/3/69
11/ 4/69
11/ 3/69
11/ 7/69
PROCEEDINGS
Filed & Ent. ORDER—allow motion to intervene
—plaintiff’s Maryetta Richardson, Montenia,
Timmie, Charlotte, and Jimmy Richardson, on
behalf of several other citizen and residents of
Halifax County, N.C. copies to all attorneys of
record. (Judge Butler & Judge Larkins signed
10/30/69) (Civ.O.B.VI—P. 1977)
Filed & Ent. ORDER—allow intervention of Rob
ert Morgan, Attorney General of North Caro
lina, in behalf of the State of N.C. (Judge But
ler & Judge Larkins) (Civ.O.B.#VIpage 1978)
Filed & Ent. ANSWER TO PLAINTIFF’S IN
TERROGATORIES—alongwith names and color
of all teachers, w/copy each, and letter of serv
ice by mail of each.
Filed in open court, ORDER—on motion of de
fendant Halifax County, allowed be dismissed
as to the question of constitutionality of the
Act creating the Scotland Neck Unit. Defendant
will no longer be required to defend or appear
concerning the constitutionality, but is not re
lieved of action involve other violations of Civil
Rights Act. (Judge Larkins) (Civ. 0. B. # V I
—P. 1980)
Received: NEWS CLIPPINGS—Scotland Neck
Commonwealth and News Observer, Envelope.
Filed & Ent. LIST OF WITNESSES FOR SCOT
LAND NECK CITY BOARD EDUCATION
w/copy.
Filed & Ent. LIST OF EXHIBITS THAT SCOT
LAND NECK CITY BOARD expects to use at
trial of m atter on its merits.
Forwarded to Judge Larkins—Plaintiff’s Exhibit
No. 2, School Survey.
Duplicate of original filed 11-3-69.
13
DATE PROCEEDINGS
*11/3/69 Fil. & ent. ANSWER OF ROBERT MORGAN,
ATTY. GEN. OF N.C., IN BEHALF OF THE
STATE OF N.C. — INTERVENOR-DEFT.,
praying that Chap. 31, Sessions Laws of 1969,
enacted by Gen. Assembly of N.C. be declared
constitutional and valid; action be dismissed
and Temporary Restraining Order heretofore
entered in this action be dismissed; such other
relief granted by court as may be proper and
just. cy.
11/13/69 Fil. & ent. ORDER EXTENDING TIME TO FILE
TRIAL BRIEF. (LARKINS, J.) (Civ.O.B.
#VI,p.1983) Cy. to all counsel of record this
date.
Fil. & ent. MOTION PENDING THE LITIGA
TION, cy.
PLAINTIFF’S OBJECTIONS TO THE
DEFENDANTS PLAN DESEGRATION
OF ITS SCHOOLS (no cy.)
PLAINTIFF’S MEMORANDUM IN SUP
PORT OF ITS OBJECTIONS TO THE
PROPOSED DESEGREGATION PLAN
OF DEFENDANT AND PLAINTIFF’S
MOTION PENDING THE LITIGA
TION. (no cy.)
MEMORANDUM OF PRE-TRIAL CON
FERENCE. (no cy.) (LARKINS, J.)
(Cy. of letter to J. Larkins from Dept, of
Justice states all counsel have been
served.) (Civ.O.B.#VI.P.1984)
11/14/69 Fil. & ent. MEMORANDUM BRIEF OF ROBERT
MORGAN IN BEHALF OF NORTH CARO
LINA, Copies of notice of brief mailed to all
attys. of record.
Fil. & ent. STATEMENT OF ISSUES, by plain
tiff.
11/20/69
14
d a t e p r o c e e d in g s
11/24/69 Issued Notice of Hearing'—to all counsel of record,
hearing set on constitutional issues and plan of
desegregation for 12/17/69.
11/24/69 Fil. MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER
that Board of Ed. of Halifax Cy. submit on
12/15/69 a Plan to terminate present dual
school system at once and to operate only uni
tary schools; further that a hearing upon said
Plan shall be held in Raleigh, N.C. on Thursday,
12/18/69. 1 cc—J. Larkins’ office mailed copies
to all counsel of record & retained cy. (LAR
KINS, J.) (Civ.O.B.#VI,P.1994) (Ent. 11/28/
69)
11/26/69 Fil. & ent. PLAINTIFF’S REPLY BRIEF TO
MEMORANDUM OF DEFENDANT-INTER-
VENOR Cy. to J. Butler & Larkins & 2 cy. to
plff.
12/ 5/69 Fil. & ent.—ORDER to amend order of 11-24-69.
The Board of Ed. is to submit with plan on
12/15/69 to terminate the present dual school
system, projected statistics for student bodies
& faculty by race & school, and a map depicting
any proposed zones or attendance areas for
each school. (LARKINS, J.) (Civ.O.B.#VI,
P.2000) Cys. mailed to all counsel
12/12/69 Fil. & ent.—ORDER—deliver to Mrs. Wilda Y.
Hauer, cy. of transcript to be returned to the
office of Clerk, Tuesday, 12/16/69. (Civ.O.B.
#V I, P.2008)
12/15/69 Received copy of Resolution of Halifax County,
Interim Plan, letter to Dr. J.L. Pierce, amended
Interim Plan, map of project statistics for stu
dent body, and statistics for faculty by race,
with copy of letter to Judge Larkins who re
ceived the originals and one copy of each paper.
(Clerk’s Office has not had the orig. for filing)
15
DATE PROCEEDINGS
12/17/69 Fil. & ent. MOTION FOR LEAVE TO INTER
VENE, by Pattie Black Cotton & Edward M.
Francis, teachers, and minor students by next
friends, (ent. 12/19/69)
Fil. in Open Court—Plff’s. Proposed Findings of
Fact, Conclusions of Law and Proposed Order
w/cy. of Memorandum Opinion of U.S.D.C.—
E.D. Arkansas, Pine Bluff Div. (Ent 12/19/69)
Fil. & ent. MARSHAL’S RETURN on service of
Civ. Subpoena on Henry L. Harrison, at Scot
land Neck, N.C., 12/15/69 J. W. Norton, USM.
Fil. & ent. MARSHAL’S RETURN on service of
Civ. Subpoena on Dr. B. Paul Hammack by
leaving copy with wife at res. at Elizabeth City,
N.C. 12/15/69. J. W. Norton, USM
12/18/69 Fil. & ent. SCOTLAND NECK CITY BD. OF ED
UCATION-BRIEF SUMMARY OF DEPOSI
TIONS. (J. Butler has orig. & J. Larkins has
cy. Filed in Open Court)
12/19/69 Fil. & ent. FURTHER CONTENTIONS FOR IN
TERVENTION By Pattie Black Cotton & Ed
ward M. Francis, teachers, & minor school
children w/Cert. of Ser. & Proposed ORDER
MAKING ADDITIONAL DEFENDANTS. Cys.
of filing to J. Larkins w/orig. proposed Order
of Cert, of Ser. on additional Defts. of Motion
& Complaint in Intervention.
12/19/69 Fil. & ent. MARSHAL’S RETURN of service of
Civ. Subpoena on Vernon L. Dusenbury at
Tryon High School, Tryon, N.C. on 12/15/69.
Thomas M. Green, DUSM, W.D.N.C.
Fil. & ent. MARSHAL’S RETURN of service of
Civ. Subpoena on Hugh D. Randall at Bd. of Ed.
Hendersonville, N.C. 12/15/69. Thomas J.
Greene, DUSM, WDNC
16
DATE PROCEEDINGS
12/22/69 Fil. & ent. OBJECTIONS OF N.C. STATE BD.
OF ED. and DR. A. CRAIG PHILLIPS, STATE
SUPT. OF PUBLIC INSTRUCTION, TO MO
TION AND COMPLAINT IN INTERVEN
TION. 2 cys.
12/23/69 Fil. & ent. INTERVENORS REPLY TO OBJEC
TIONS TO INTERVENTION w/Cert. of Serv
ice Served on Frank D. Wilson, Sr.
Fil. w/Judge Larkins—DEFENDANT, HALI
FAX COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION’S
OBJECTIONS TO MOTION FOR LEAVE TO
INTERVENE BY PATTIE BLACK COTTON
AND EDWARD N. FRANCIS, ET AL. w/Cert.
of Service and MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT
OF ITS OBJECTIONS
Fil. & ent. 12-29-69—TRANSCRIPT OF HEAR
ING ON DESEGREGATION PLAN AT RA
LEIGH, N.C. ON DECEMBER 19, 1969 by
Ward Allen Court Reporter. Cy.
12/24/69 Issued NOTICE OF HEARING—On Objections
to Motion for Intervention, to all counsel
of record—At Trenton, N.C. 1/2/70 at 12:00
noon in Chambers, cy. to J. Larkins
Fil. & ent. MARSHAL’S RETURN ON SERVICE
—Served Summons on Charles E. Fleming Dec.
22, 1969
Fil. & ent.—RESPONSE OF DEFENDANT,
SCOTLAND NECK CITY BOARD OF EDU
CATION, TO MOTION OF PATTIE BLACK
COTTON, ET AL FOR LEAVE TO INTER
VENE. w/Cert. of Ser.
12/29/69 Fil. & ent. MOTION OF BOARD OF COUNTY
COMMISSIONERS OF HALIFAX COUNTY
FOR ADDITIONAL TIME WITHIN WHICH
TO FILE ANSWER AND OBJECTIONS TO
THE MOTION FOR LEAVE TO INTERVENE
17
DATE PROCEEDINGS
AND MAKE NEW PARTIES FILED HERE
IN BY JAMES R. WALKER, et al. Cy. to
J. Larkins — J. Butler
Fil. & ent. ORDER—Granting extension of time
to Board of County Commissioners of Halifax
County. Cy. to J. Buttler & J. Larkins. (Civ.
O.B. # VI,P.2013)
12/30/69 Fil. & ent. PLAINTIFF’S MEMORANDUM IN
OPPOSITION TO THE MOTION FOR LEAVE
TO INTERVENE FILED DEC. 17, 1969 ON
BEHALF OF PATTIE BLACK COTTON AND
OTHERS, with MOTION—The Plff. moves this
court deny the pending Motion for Leave to
Intervene.
12/31/69 Fil. w /Judge Larkins—OBJECTIONS OF THE
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS OF
HALIFAX COUNTY TO MOTION AND COM
PLAINT IN INTERVENTION AND TO IT
BEING MADE A PARTY DEFENDANT TO
THIS ACTION. w/Cert. of Service
1/ 8/70 Fil. & ent. RESPONSE TO MOTION FOR LEAVE
TO INTERVENE by Deft. Littleton-Lake Gas
ton School District and Russell N. Manning.
(Orig. mailed to J. Larkins to place in case
file.)
Fil. w /Judge Larkins—REQUEST OF THE
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS OF
HALIFAX COUNTY THAT THAT PART OF
MOTION OF PATTIE BLACK COTTON, ET
ALS, REQUESTING THAT IT BE MADE A
PARTY DEFENDANT BE DISMISSED AND
DISALLOWED EVEN THOUGH INTERVEN
TION IS ALLOWED. w/Cert. of Service (J.
Larkins has copy.)
18
DATE PROCEEDINGS
1/ 9/70 Fil. w /Judge Larkins—MEMORANDUM OPIN
ION AND ORDER—Motion for Leave to Inter
vene (by Pattie Black Cotton, Edward M.
Francis & others) is allowed; FURTHER orig.
defts. & additional defts. named in complaint in
intervention (Mr. W. Henry Overman, Supt. of
Halifax Cy. Schs.; the Bd. of Commrs. of Hali
fax Cy.; Scotland Neck City Bd. of Ed.; Frank
lin B. Bailey, Supt. of Scotland Neck City Schs.;
Littleton-Lake Gaston Sch. Dist. & Russell N.
Manning, Supt. of Littleton-Lake Gaston Sch.
Dist.; & the N.C.St. Bd. of Ed., & Dr. Craig
Phillips, N.C.St. Supt. of Public Instruction)
are ordered to answer or otherwise plead within
20 days in accordance with R.12 of F.R.C.P.
FURTHER—Clerk to serve cy. of this paper
upon all counsel of record. (LARKINS, J.)
(Civ.O.B.#VI, P.2051) (Ent. 3/12/70) Cy.
served on all parties by J. Larkins’ office & J.
Larkins has Cy. as well as J. Butler.
Fil. & ent. COMPLAINT IN INTERVENTION
by Pattie Black Cotton, Edward M. Francis,
Public Sch. Teachers of Halifax County, et als.
1/12/70 Fil. & ent. TRANSCRIPT OF MOTION HEAR
ING AT TRENTON, N.C., JAN. 2, 1970.
1/26/70 Fil. & ent. MOTION of defts. Scotland Neck City
Board of Education Q Franklin B. Bailey, Supt.
of Scotland Neck Cy. Scls., for extension of time
within which to answer or otherwise plead to
Complaint of intervenors until 2/27/70. w/Cert.
of Ser. (Clerk’s cy. to J. Larkins)
Fil. & ent. ORDER extending time within which to
answer or otherwise plead to Complaint of in
tervenors to & including 2/27/70 for defts. Scot
land Neck City Bd. of Ed. & Franklin B. Bailey,
Supt. of Scotland Neck City Schools. (LAR
KINS, J.) (Civ.O.B.#VI,P.2052) Cy. to Attys.
Walker, Joyner, Josey, Crew, Howard & Atty.
Gen. Morgan.
19
DATE p r o c e e d in g s
Fil. & ent. MOTION TO ENLARGE TIME FOR
HALIFAX COUNTY BD. OF ED. TO FILE
ANSWER TO COMPLAINT IN INTERVEN
TION BY APPLICANTS, PATTIE BLACK
COTTON, ET ALS. (J. Larkins has cy.)
w/Cert. of Service
Fil. & ent. ORDER TO ENLARGE TIME TO
FILE ANSWER TO COMPLAINT IN INTER
VENTION for Halifax County Bd. of Ed. until
3/1/70. (LARKINS, J.) (Civ.O.B.#VI,P.2053)
Cy. to Attys. Walker, Joyner, Josey, Crew, How
ard & Atty. Gen. Morgan
1/28/70 Fil. & ent. MOTION TO DISMISS Complaint in
Intervention as against Russell N. Manning.
w/Cert. of Service Cy. to J. Larkins
Fil. & ent. ANSWER PRESENTING DEFENSES
TO COMPLAINT IN INTERVENTION by deft.
Littleton-Lake Gaston School District. w/Cert.
of Service. Cy. to J. Larkins
1/30/70 Fil. & ent. ANSWER OF DEFENDANT SCOT
LAND NECK CITY BD. OF ED. to Complaint
in Intervention & an affirmative plea that the
court preserve the present status of school at
tendance in the Scotland Neck School pending
the final determination of the issues in this
cause. w/Photostatic cy. of newspaper clippings
Cert, of Service attached thereto
2 / 2/70 Fil. & ent. MOTION OF DEFENDANT, BOARD
OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS OF HALI
FAX COUNTY, that it be granted additional
time within which to answer or otherwise plead
to the complaint in intervention filed herein by
Pattie Black Cotton, et al w/Cert. of Service
20
d a t e p r o c e e d in g s
2 / 2/70 Fil. & ent. ORDER TO ENLARGE TIME TO
FILE ANSWER OR OTHERWISE PLEAD TO
COMPLAINT IN INTERVENTION to & in
cluding 2/18/70 for Bd. of County Commrs. of
Halifax County. (LARKINS, J.) (Civ.O.B.#VI,
P.2029) Cy. to Counsel of Record.
2/17/70 Fil. & ent. ANSWER TO COMPLAINT IN IN
TERVENTION BY BOARD OF COUNTY
COMMISSIONERS OF HALIFAX COUNTY.
w/Cert. of Service. Cy. to J. Larkins
2/25/70 Fil. & ent. ANSWER AND MOTION TO DIS
MISS OF THE DEFENDANT, FRANKLIN B.
BAILEY, TO THE COMPLAINT IN INTER
VENTION. w/Cert. of Service
3 / 2/70 Fil. w /Judge Larkins—ANSWER OF DEFT.
HALIFAX COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCA
TION TO THE COMPLAINT IN INTERVEN
TION AND AN AFFIRMATIVE PLEA THAT
THE COURT DELAY FURTHER AND FINAL
DETERMINATION OF ALL OTHER ISSUES
RAISED HEREIN PENDING FINAL DE
TERMINATION OF THE CONSTITUTION
ALITY OF THE ACT CREATING THE SCOT
LAND NECK CITY SCHOOL ADMINISTRA
TIVE UNIT AND ALSO DELAY ANY FUR
THER ORDER FOR IMPLEMENTATION OF
ANY SCHOOL DESEGREGATION PLAN UN
TIL JUNE 1, 1970. w/Cert. of Service
5/19/70 Fil. & ent. ORDER that motion of defts. that
effective date of implementation be delayed un
til end of school year—on or about 6/1/70—is
allowed; and that “Proposed Interim Plan” of
deft. Halifax Co. Bd. of Ed., same having been
adopted by Court be Implemented by Bd. no later
than 6/1/70. Further-motion of plff. for immedi
ate implementation at mid-year is denied.—Clerk
21
DATE PROCEEDINGS
to serve copy upon all counsel of record. (LAR
KINS, J.) (Civ.O.B.#VII,P.2093) Cert. cy.
mailed to Civ. Rts. Atty. Kennedy, Attys. Crew,
Josey, Joyner, McLean, Parker, Walker, Creech,
Att. Gen. of N.C., Halifax Co. Bd. of Ed. & W.
Henry Overman, Supt.
5/26/70 Fil. & ent. OPINION and ORDER that further im
plementation of Chapter 31 of the 1969 Session
Laws of N.C. is permanently enjoined & Clk.
directed to serve copies of this Opinion & Order
upon all counsel of record. (J. BUTLER & J.
LARKINS) (Civ.O.B.#VII,P.2098) Cert. cy.
to Civ. Rts. Attys. Howard & Kennedy, Attys.
Walker, Crew, Josey, Joyner, Creech, McLean,
Parker & Atty. Gen. of N.C. Cy. to J. Larkins
5/26/70 Fil. & ent. JUDGMENT that Chapter 31 of Ses
sion Laws of North Carolina 1969 creating Scot
land Neck Administrative Unit is declared to be
unconstitutional & null & void. Defts., their
respective officers, agents, etc., are permanently
enjoined from any & all further proceedings
pursuant to said statute. (J. BUTLER & J.
LARKINS) (Civ.O.B.#VII,P.2099) (Ent. 6 /
10/70)
*6/ 3/70 Fil. & ent. MOTION to amend “Proposed Interim
Plan” of deft. Halifax Co. Bd. of Ed. as pre
pared by N.C. Dept, of Instruction. w/Excerpts
from Minutes of Halifax Co. Bd. of Ed. Meeting
4/6/70 & Ltr. to W. Henry Overman from J. L.
Pierce, Director, Div. of Sch. Planning attached
thereto
*6/ 2/70 Fil. & ent. (Revised) HALIFAX COUNTY MAP
indicating School Districts and different schools.
6 / 3/70 Fil. & ent. AMENDED ORDER—that “Proposed
Interim Plan” of deft. Halifax Co. Bd. of Ed.
subject to secondary amendments of Bd. in
cluded in Proposal to Court be amended as set
22
DATE PROCEEDINGS
out in Motion; that Order of this Court dtd
5/18/70 is amended........ Clk. to serve cys. upon
all counsel. (LARKINS J.) (Civ.O.B.#VII,
P.2100) Cert. cy. to Civ. Rts. Atty. Howard &
Attys. Walker, Crew, Josey, Joyner, Creech,
McLean, Parker & Atty. Gen. of N.C.
6/17/70 Fil. & ent. NOTICE OF APPEAL by Scotland
Neck City Bd. of Ed., deft. Following' counsel
served w/notice & advised of Local R.10 A&B
and Rule 10 & 12 along w/deft. filing: Civ. Rts.
Atty. Howard, Attys. Walker, Crew, Josey,
Joyner, Creech, McLean, Parker & Atty. Gen. of
N.C.
**6/29/70 Fil. & ent. BOND FOR COSTS ON APPEAL in
amount of $250.00—U.S. Fidelity and Guaranty
Co., Surety
7 / 1/70 Fil. & ent. NOTICE OF APPEAL by Robert Mor
gan, Atty. Gen. N.C.; N.C. State Board of Edu
cation and Dr. A. Craig Phillips, State Super, of
Public Instruction. Parties filing advised as well
as the following of Gen. Rule 10A & B, U.S. Dist.
Ct., E.D.N.C. and Rules 10 & 12 F.R.A.P.: How
ard, Civ. Rts. Atty.; Walker; Crew; Josey;
Joyner; Creech; McLean & Parker
7 / 2/70 Fil. & Ent.—BOND FOR COST—by defts.
$250.00, Great American Insurance Co. Surety.
7/13/70 Issued NOTICE OF HEARING ON MOTION TO
AMEND INTERIM PLAN at Raleigh, N.C., at
11:00 A.M., Tues., 7/21/70—Courtroom # 2.
Copy mailed to Attys. Landsberg, Walker,
McLean, Crew, Josey, Joyner, Creech, Parker
& Atty. Gen. of N.C. cc to J. Larkins
**6/25/70 Fil. & ent. MOTION of deft. Halifax County Board
of Ed. for further amendment to “Proposed
Interim Plan” of this deft. w/Cert. of Service
& Exhibit A (Map) attached (This motion filed
w /J. Larkins)
23
DATE
7 / 3/70
7/14/70
7/15/70
7/21/70
7/27/70
7/28/70
PROCEEDINGS
Received by J. Larkins & placed on docket a t his
request: Cy. of ltr. from Atty. Josey to Clk.
Phillips, 4th Cir. Ct. of Appeals, w/cy of Mo
tion for Shortening Time for Filing Briefs
w /4th Cir. Ct. of Appeals & Proposed Order
Fil. & ent. PLAINTIFF’S RESPONSE TO DE
FENDANTS’ MOTION TO AMEND INTERIM
DESEGREGATION PLAN APPROVED MAY
19. 1970
Fil. & ent. CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE of Plff.’s
serving aforementioned Response upon defts.
Fil. & ent. defendant Scotland Neck City Bd. of
Ed.’s ANSWER TO MOTION of Halifax County
Bd. of Ed., dtd. 6/24/70, stating that it does not
object to said motion & joins w/deft. Halifax
Cy. Bd. of Ed. in requesting Court that said
Motion be allowed. w/Cert. of Service jw t
Fil. & ent. PLAINTIFFS’ IN INTERVENTION
OPPOSITION TO DEFENDANT’S MOTION
TO AMEND INTERIM DESEGREGATION
PLAN APPROVED MAY 19, 1970—praying
tha t the Court deny Motion of Deft. Sch. Bd. to
amend Order of 5/19/70 as amended by order
of Court on 6/1/70.
Fil. & ent. EXHIBIT E of Plaintiffs’ in Interven
tion—an additional exhibit to their Complaint
in Intervention.
Fil. & ent. TRANSCRIPT OF HEARING ON THE
MERITS, 12/17/69, before Judges Butler &
Larkins in Raleigh, N.C.
Fil. & ent. ORDER that motion of defts. to amend
the Order of 5/19/70 with respect to the oper
ation of the Scotland Neck School and the
Brawley School is denied; and Further Ordered
that the Clerk serve copies of this order upon
all counsel of record. (LARKINS, J.) (Civ.O.B.
24
DATE
7/28/70
3/19/71
3/24/71
4 / 5/71
4 / 9/71
PROCEEDINGS
#VII,P.2128) Cert. cy. to Civ. Rts. Attys.
Dempsey & Kennedy, Jerris Leonard, Asst. Atty.
Gen., c/o Leslie Smith, Jr., Atty., Ed. Sect.,
Walker, Mitchell, Crew, Josey, Joyner, Creech,
McLean, Parker & Atty. Gen. of N.C.
Fil. & Ent.—CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE by
delivering a copy of the Exhibit “E ” to Com
plaint of Plaintiffs in Intervention.
Mailed record on Appeal to 4th Cir. Ct. of Ap
peals—8 Volumes Cy. of transm ittal letter
w/Index to Attys. of Record & Judges Butler &
Larkins.
Fil. & ent. NOTICE of Hearing on Motion for
Supplemental Relief to be set by the Court.
Fil. & ent. MOTION FOR SUPPLEMENTAL RE
LIEF by plff. w/Cert. of Ser. as to Notice &
Motion w/Attachments to Motion. (Cy. to J.
Larkins) jw t
Fil. & ent. OPINION of 4th Cir. Ct. of Appeals
reversing decision of this court which declared
Chapt. 31 of 1969 Session Laws of N.C. uncon
stitutional and permanently enjoining any fu r
ther implementation of the statute.
Fil. & ent. ANSWER of SCOTLAND NECK CITY
BOARD OF EDUCATION TO MOTION BY
THE PLAINTIFF UNITED STATES OF
AMERICA FOR SUPPLEMENTAL RELIEF
w/Cert. of Ser. (Cy. to J. Larkins) jw t
Fil. & ent. MOTION TO EXTEND TIME FOR
FILING REPLY OR OTHERWISE PLEAD TO
PLAINTIFF’S MOTION FOR SUPPLEMENT
AL RELIEF w/ORDER extending time for
Halifax County Bd. of Ed. & all other defts. &
other parties hereto file reply to Motion for
Supplemental Relief or to otherwise plead to
25
DATE PROCEEDINGS
Midnight, 5/5/71. Right to shorten or extend
this time is retained by court. (DUPREE, J.)
w/Cert. of Ser. (O.B.#VII,P.2291) (Cy. to J.
Larkins) jw t
5/14/71 Fil. & ent. MOTION TO EXTEND TIME FOR
FILING REPLY OR OTHERWISE PLEAD
TO PLAINTIFF’S MOTION FOR SUPPLE
MENTAL RELIEF UNTIL FINAL ACTION
BY THE U.S. SUPREME COURT & ORDER—
ordered motion is allowed & Halifax County Bd.
of Educ. & all parties to suit be granted addi
tional time for filing a Reply or otherwise plead
ing to Motion for Supplemental Relief until 20
days after Supreme Ct. has ans. plff’s petition.
If said writ denied & extension of time until 30
dys after U.S. Supreme Ct. has rendered final
decision if w rit is granted. Right to shorten or
extend time is retained by court. (DUPREE,)
Civ.O.B.# VII,P.2315 cc: Crew, Josey, Walker,
Landsberg (Wash. D.C.) & Moody w/Cert. of
Service
5/27/71 Fil. & ent. MOTION TO RECONSIDER ORDER
ENTERED MAY 13, 1971—plff. prays that
Court reconsider order of 5/13/71 & will strike
that part of order granting all parties 30 days
after U.S. Supreme Ct. renders decision in Scot
land Neck, supra, if certiorari is granted, to
reply to plff.’s Motion for Supplemental Relief
and instead require all parties to respond with
in 20 days after Ct. rules on plff.’s petition
whether certiorari is granted or denied. w/Cert.
of Ser. 2 CC & 2 cys. to U.S.A.
Fil. & ent. NOTICE OF MOTION to be heard at
time & place determined by the Court.
Fil. & ent. MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT OF
MOTION TO RECONSIDER ORDER EN
TERED MAY 13, 1971.
26
[Caption Omitted]
COMPLAINT
CLAIM ONE
The plaintiff, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, al
leges :
1. This action is instituted by the United States of
America, pursuant to Sections 407(a) and (b) of the
Civil Rights Act of 1964, 42 U.S.C. §§ 2000c-6(a) and
(b). The statutory requirements for bringing such an
action under 42 U.S.C. §§ 2000c-6(a) and (b) have been
met as follows:
(a) The former Attorney General, Nicholas deB.
Katzenbach, received complaints in writing signed
by parents to the effect that their minor children,
as members of a class of persons similarly situ
ated, are being deprived by the defendant School
Board of the equal protection of the laws;
(b) The Attorney General has certified that he be
lieves these complaints to be meritorious;
(c) Attached hereto is the Attorney General’s certifi
cation that:
(1) the signers of the complaints are unable, in
his judgment, to initiate and maintain ap
propriate legal proceedings for relief and that
the institution of this action will materially
further the orderly achievement of desegre
gation in public education;
(2) after giving notice of the complaints to the
defendant School Board, he is satisfied that
the Board has had a reasonable time to ad
just the conditions alleged in such complaint.
2. This Court has jurisdiction of this action under 28
U.S.C. § 1345 and 42 U.S.C. § 2000c-6.
3. The defendant Halifax County Board of Education
is a body corporate, organized and existing under the
laws of the State of North Carolina. It has the duty
under North Carolina law to operate a public school
system in Halifax County, North Carolina, which is lo
cated in the Eastern District of North Carolina.
27
4. This action is brought against the defendant Ferd
L. Harrison in his official capacity as Mayor of the Town
of Scotland Neck, and against the defendants J. A. An
drews, F. G. Shearin, Frank P. Shields, and J. I. Wal
ston, in their official capacities as members of the Board
of Commissioners of the said Town of Scotland Neck.
The Mayor and the Board of Commissioners constitute
the governing authority of the Town of Scotland Neck.
In their official capacities these defendants are charged
under North Carolina law with conducting the operations
of the municipal government of the Town of Scotland
Neck, and in particular, are charged under Chapter 31,
1969 Sessions Laws, with appointing the initial members
of the Scotland Neck City Board of Education, which is
the governing board of the Scotland Neck City Adminis
trative Unit. These defendants reside in the Town of
Scotland Neck within the Eastern District of North Caro
lina.
5. The Town of Scotland Neck is a public body cor
porate, organized and existing under the laws of the
State of North Carolina and located in Halifax County
within the Eastern District of North Carolina. This
defendant is charged under North Carolina law with
providing municipal government within its jurisdiction,
and in particular, with levying and collecting taxes with
in its jurisdiction, including the taxes authorized by
Chapter 31, 1969 Sessions Laws to be paid over to the
Scotland Neck City Administrative Unit.
6. Prior to the 1965-66 school year the defendant
Halifax County Board of Education operated a completely
segregated school system based on race. Since that time
this defendant has operated its school system pursuant
to a freedom-of-choice plan of desegregation, modified
for the year 1968-69 by the assignment of some additional
Negroes to desegregated schools. This defendant operates
a total of seventeen schools, four of which have histori
cally been maintained for white persons, and thirteen of
which have historically been maintained for Negroes.
During the school year 1968-69 all of the approximately
2357 white pupils in the district remain in traditionally
28
white schools and 91% of the approximately 8196 Negro
pupils remain in all-Negro schools.
7. The defendant Board of Education presently con
trols and operates one school within the geographical
boundaries of the Town of Scotland Neck. This school
is a traditionally white school, known as the Scotland
Neck High School.
8. The defendant Board of Education proposes to as
sign students to schools for the 1969-70 school year pur
suant to its freedom-of-choice plan of desegregation.
9. On or about March 3, 1969, there was enacted into
law a statute known as “Chapter 31, 1969 Sessions
Laws,” (hereafter referred to as Chapter 31) a copy of
which is attached herewith as Exhibit A. Chapter 31
provides, in pertinent part, for the creation of a new
public school administrative unit to be known as the
Scotland Neck City Administrative Unit (Section 1).
The creation of this special school system was made
subject to majority approval at a special election held
only for the voters of Scotland Neck (Sections 3, 7 and
8 ). Chapter 31 further provides that upon the approval
of a majority of the voters and the creation of the Scot
land Neck City Administrative Unit, all school proper
ties located within the new school system and all monies
allocated for schools within the new school system, shall
become the property of the new system, and legal title
to such school properties shall be transferred by the
Halifax County Board of Education to the new Scotland
Neck City Administrative Unit (Section 5). After ap
proval of the new school system, the Mayor and Board
of Commissioners of Scotland Neck are required to ap
point the initial members of the Scotland Neck City
Board of Education, which Board is to administer the
new school system (Section 2).
10. There are at present 399 white and 296 Negro
students who reside within the boundaries of the Town
of Scotland Neck, who attend schools operated by the
defendant Halifax County Board of Education, and who
became eligible to attend schools operated by the Scot
land Neck City Administrative Unit with the approval
and creation of such a new school system.
29
11. On April 8, 1969 a special election was held in
Scotland Neck pursuant to the provisions of Chapter 31,
in which a majority of the votes cast were in behalf of
approving the creation of the Scotland Neck City Ad
ministrative Unit. The provisions of Chapter 31 became
effective and operative on or about April 8, 1969.
12. The enactment and implementation of Chapter 31
commands, encourages and fosters segregation based on
race or color in the operation of the public schools of
Halifax County in that it interferes with the further
desegregation of the schools of Halifax County by limit
ing the opportunity for Negro public school children re
siding in Halifax County but outside the Town of Scot
land Neck to obtain a desegregated education.
13. Chapter 31 sets up a separate school system which,
on grounds of its size and pupil enrollment, has no edu
cational justification and is contrary to general North
Carolina policy of consolidating schools and school sys
tems.
14. The enactment and implementation of Chapter 31,
for the reasons set out in paragraphs 13 and 14, denies
equal protection of the laws to Negro children of school
age residing in Halifax County, outside the boundaries
of Scotland Neck, in violation of the Fourteenth Amend
ment to the United States Constitution.
15. Unless restrained by order of this Court the de
fendants as described in the preceding paragraphs will
continue to give force and effect to the provisions of
Chapter 31 to the injury of the Negro school-age children
residing in the areas formerly within the jurisdiction of
the defendant Halifax County Board of Education.
CLAIM TWO
16. Paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 6 and 8 of Claim One of this
complaint are realleged in this Claim and incorporated
herein by reference as if fully set out.
17. The defendant Board of Education for the 1968-
69 school year assigned 5 white teachers and 31 Negro
teachers to schools predominantly or exclusively of the
opposite race, while assigning 118 white teachers and 286
Negro teachers to schools predominantly or exclusively
30
of the same race. All of the schools in the Halifax
County School District remain racially identifiable by the
composition of their faculties.
18. There are educationally sound alternative methods
of student assignment available to the defendant Board
of Education, such as geographic zoning, or consolidation
of schools or grades or both, which promise a speedier
and more effective conversion to a unitary, nonracial
school system than the freedom-of-choice plan presently
in effect. The technical assistance of the Department of
Health, Education and Welfare is available to the de
fendants pursuant to 42 U.S.C. 2000c-2 et seq. in the
preparation, adoption and implementation of a suitable
alternative plan.
19. The defendant Board of Education, in operating
and maintaining a public school system within Halifax
County, has failed and refused to adopt and implement
a desegregation plan which will convert the dual system
based on race into a unitary, nonracial school system at
the earliest practicable date, and has further failed and
refused to eliminate and offset the continuing effects of
its past discrimination.
20. The acts, practices, and policies of the defendant
described herein deny equal protection of the laws to
Negro children of school age residing in the jurisdiction
of the defendant Board of Education, in violation of the
Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.
21. Unless restrained by order of this Court, the de
fendant Halifax County Board of Education will con
tinue to deny equal protection of the laws to Negro chil
dren residing in the jurisdiction of this defendant in
Halifax County as more fully appears in Claim Two of
this complaint.
WHEREFORE, the plaintiff prays that this Court,
after a hearing, find the provisions of Chapter 31 in
violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the Four
teenth Amendment, and enter an order enjoining the
defendants, their officers, agents, employees, and succes
sors, and all persons in active concert or participation
with any of them from giving any force or effect to the
provisions of Chapter 31, and from doing any thing or
31
act which may be called for in the provisions of Chapter
81.
The plaintiff further prays that this Court enter an
order enjoining the defendant Halifax County Board of
Education, its officers, employees, agents and successors,
and all persons in active concert or participation with
any of them, from failing or refusing to afford equal
educational opportunities to all students in the jurisdic
tion of the Halifax County Board of Education without
regard to race, and requiring said persons to take prompt
affirmative steps to eliminate the racial identities of the
schools of said school system with respect to pupils, facul
ties, transportation, and new construction, and to assign
pupils to schools without regard to their race on the
basis of unitary geographic attendance zones, consolida
tion of grades or schools or both, or some other system
of assignment not based on the choice of the pupil or
his parent. The plaintiff further prays that the defend
ants be ordered to seek such technical assistance as may
be necessary from the Office of Education of the Depart
ment of Health, Education and Welfare for the prepara
tion and submission of a plan to accomplish this result
at the earliest practicable date.
Plaintiff further prays that this Court grant such ad
ditional relief as the needs of justice may require, to
gether with the costs and disbursements of this action.
/ s / John N. Mitchell
J ohn N. Mitchell
Attorney General
,/s / Jerris Leonard
Jerris Leonard
Assistant Attorney General
Robert H. Cowen
United States Attorney
/ s / Frank E. Schwelb
F rank E. Schwelb
Attorney
Department of Justice
32
[Caption Omitted]
CERTIFICATE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
I, JOHN N. MITCHELL, Attorney General of the
United States, hereby certify, that the former Attorney
General Nicholas deB. Katzenbach received complaints in
writing signed by parents of minor children in Halifax
County, North Carolina, alleging that said children are
being deprived by the Halifax County Board of Educa
tion of the equal protection of the laws; that I believe
the complaints to be meritorious; that the signers of the
complaints are unable, in my judgment, to initiate and
maintain appropriate legal proceedings for relief; that
after giving notice of the complaints to the said Board
of Education I am satisfied that the said Board of Edu
cation has had a reasonable time to adjust the conditions
alleged in said complaints; and that, in my judgment,
the institution of this action will materially further the
orderly achievement of desegregation in public education.
This certification is made pursuant to the provisions
of Sections 407(a) and (b) of the Civil Rights Act of
1964, 42 U.S.C. §§ 2000c-6(a) and (b).
Signed this ____ day o f _____________, 1969.
/ s / John N. Mitchell
John N. Mitchell
Attorney General
33
Exhibit A
[State Seal]
STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA
Department op State
I, THAD EURE, Secretary of State of the State of
North Carolina, do hereby certify the following and
hereto attached four (4) sheets to be a true copy of
Chapter 31, 1969 Sessions Laws entitled “AN ACT TO
IMPROVE AND PROVIDE PUBLIC SCHOOLS OF A
HIGHER STANDARD FOR THE RESIDENTS OF
SCOTLAND NECK IN HALIFAX COUNTY, TO ES
TABLISH THE SCOTLAND NECK CITY ADMINIS
TRATIVE UNIT, TO PROVIDE FOR THE ADMIN
ISTRATION OF THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN SAID
ADMINISTRATIVE UNIT, . . . ratified on the 3rd
day of March, 1969, by The General Assembly of North
Carolina the original of which is now on file and a mat
ter of record in this office.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my
hand and affixed my official seal.
DONE IN OFFICE at Raleigh, this the 17th day of,
March, 1969.
/s ,/ Thad Eure
Secretary of State
[SEAL]
By ,/s / Clyde Smith
Deputy Secretary of State
34
NORTH CAROLINA
GENERAL ASSEMBLY
1969 SESSION
RATIFIED BILL
Chapter 31
H ouse B ill 22
AN ACT TO IMPROVE AND PROVIDE PUBLIC
SCHOOLS OF A HIGHER STANDARD FOR THE
RESIDENTS OF SCOTLAND NECK IN HALIFAX
COUNTY, TO ESTABLISH THE SCOTLAND NECK
CITY ADMINISTRATIVE UNIT, TO PROVIDE
FOR THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE PUBLIC
SCHOOLS IN SAID ADMINISTRATIVE UNIT, TO
LEVY A SPECIAL TAX FOR THE PUBLIC
SCHOOLS OF SAID ADMINISTRATIVE UNIT,
ALL OF WHICH SHALL BE SUBJECT TO THE
APPROVAL OF THE VOTERS IN A REFEREN
DUM OR SPECIAL ELECTION.
The General Assembly of North Carolina do enact:
Section 1. There is hereby classified and established a
public school administrative unit to be known and desig
nated as the Scotland Neck City Administrative Unit
which shall consist of the territory or area lying and
being within the boundaries or corporate limits of the
Town of Scotland Neck in Halifax County, and the boun
daries of said Scotland Neck City Administrative Unit
shall be coterminous with the present corporate limits
or boundaries of the Town of Scotland Neck. The gov
erning board of said Scotland Neck City Administrative
Unit shall be known and designated as the Scotland
Neck City Board of Education, and said Scotland Neck
City Board of Education (hereinafter referred to as:
Board) shall have and exercise all of the powers, duties,
privileges and authority granted and applicable to city
administrative units and city boards of education as set
forth in Chapter 115 of the General Statutes, as amend
ed.
Sec. 2. The Board shall consist of five members ap
pointed by the governing authority of the Town of Scot
35
land Neck, and said five members shall hold office until
the next regular municipal election of the Town of Scot
land Neck to be held in May, 1971. At the regular
election for Mayor and Commissioners of the Town of
Scotland Neck to be held in May 1971, there shall be
elected five members of the Board, and three persons so
elected who receive the highest number of votes shall hold
office for four years and the two persons elected who
receive the next highest number of votes shall hold office
for two years, and thereafter all members of the Board
so elected, as successors, shall hold office for four years.
All members of the Board shall hold their offices until
their successors are elected and qualified. All members
of the Board shall be eligible to hold public office as re
quired by the Constitution and laws of the State.
Sec. 3. All members of the Board shall be elected by
the qualified voters of the Town of Scotland Neck and
said election shall be held and conducted by the govern
ing authority of the Town of Scotland Neck and by its
election officials and pursuant to the same laws, rules
and regulations as are applicable to the election of the
municipal officials of the Town of Scotland Neck, and
the results shall be certified in the same manner. The
election of members of the Board shall be held at the
same time and place as applicable to the election of the
Mayor and Board of Commissioners of the Town of Scot
land Neck and in accordance with the expiration of terms
of office of members of the Board. The members of the
Board so elected shall be inducted into office on the first
Monday following the date of election, and the expense
of the election of the members of the Board shall be
paid by the Board.
Sec. 4. A t the first meeting of the Board appointed
as above set forth and of a new Board elected as herein
provided, the Board shall organize by electing one of its
members as chairman for a period of one year, or until
his successor is elected and qualified. The chairman
shall preside at the meetings of the Board, and in the
event of his absence or sickness, the Board may appoint
one of its members as temporary chairman. The Scot
land Neck City Superintendent of Schools shall be ex
36
officio secretary to his Board and shall keep the minutes
of the Board but shall have no vote. If there exists a
vacancy in the office of Superintendent, then the Board
may appoint one of its members to serve temporarily as
secretary to the Board. All vacancies in the member
ship of the Board by death, resignation, removal, change
of residence or otherwise shall be filled by appointment
by the governing authority of the Town of Scotland Neck
of a person to serve for the unexpired term and until
the next regular election for members of the Board when
a successor shall be elected.
Sec. 5. All public school property, both real and per
sonal, and all buildings, facilities, and equipment used
for public school purposes, located within the corporate
limits of Scotland Neck and within the boundaries set
forth in Section 1 of this Act, and all records, books,
moneys budgeted for said facilities, accounts, papers,
documents and property of any description, shall become
the property of Scotland Neck City Administrative Unit
or the Board; all real estate belonging to the public
schools located within the above-described boundaries is
hereby granted, made over to, and automatically by force
of this Act conveyed to the Board from the County pub
lic school authorities. The Board of Education of Hali
fax County is authorized and directed to execute any
and all deeds, bills of sale, assignments or other docu
ments that may be necessary to completely vest title to
all such property in the Board.
Sec. 6. Subject to the approval of the voters residing
within the boundaries set forth in Section 1 of this Act,
or within the corporate limits of the Town of Scotland
Neck, as hereinafter provided, the governing authority
of the Town of Scotland Neck, in addition to all other
taxes, is authorized and directed to levy annually a sup
plemental tax not to exceed F ifty Cents (50^) on each
One Hundred ($100.00) Dollars of the assessed value
of the real and personal property taxable in said Town
of Scotland Neck. The amount or rate of said tax shall
be determined by the Board and said tax shall be col
lected by the Tax Collector of the Town of Scotland Neck
and paid to the Treasurer of the Board. The Board
37
may use the proceeds of the tax so collected to supple
ment any object or item in the school budget as fixed by
law or to supplement any object or item in the Current
Expense Fund or Capital Outlay Fund as fixed by law.
Sec. 7. Within ten days from the date of the ratifica
tion of this Act it shall be the duty of the governing
authority of the Town of Scotland Neck to call a refer
endum or special election upon the question of whether
or not said Scotland Neck City Administrative Unit and
its administrative board shall be established and whether
or not the special tax herein provided shall be levied and
collected for the purposes herein provided. The notice
of the special election shall be published once a week for
two successive weeks in some newspaper published in the
Town of Scotland Neck or having a general circulation
in the Town of Scotland Neck. The notice shall contain
a brief statement of the purpose of the special election,
the area in which it shall be held, and that a vote by a
majority of those voting in favor of this Act will estab
lish the Scotland Neck City Administrative Unit and its
Administrative Board as herein set forth, and that an
annual tax not to exceed F ifty Cents (50^) on the as
sessed valuation of real and personal property, according
to each One Hundred Dollars ($100.00) valuation, the
rate to be fixed by the Board, will be levied as a supple
mental tax in the Town of Scotland Neck, for the pur
pose of supplementing any lawful public school budgetary
item. A new registration of voters shall not be required
and in all respects the laws and regulations under which
the municipal elections of the Town of Scotland Neck
are held shall apply to said special election. The govern
ing authority of the Town of Scotland Neck shall have
the authority to enact reasonable rules and regulations
for the necessary election books, records and other docu
ments for such special election and to fix the necessary
details of said special election.
Sec. 8. In said referendum or special election a ballot
in form substantially as follows shall be used: VOTE
FOR ONE:
( ) FOR creating and establishing Scotland Neck
City Administrative Unit with administrative
38
Board to operate public schools of said Unit and
for supplemental tax not to exceed F ifty Cents
(50^) on the assessed valuation of real and
personal property according to each One Hun
dred Dollars ($100.00) valuation for objects of
school budget.
( ) AGAINST creating and establishing Scotland
Neck City Administrative Unit with administra
tive Board to operate public schools of said
Unit and against supplemental tax not to ex
ceed Fifty Cents (50(0 on the assessed valua
tion of real and personal property according to
each One Hundred Dollars ($100.00) valuation
for objects of school budget.
If a majority of the qualified voters voting at such
referendum or special election vote in favor of establish
ing Soctland Neck City Administrative Unit, for crea
tion of administrative Board to operate public schools
of said Unit and for special supplemental tax as herein
set forth, then this Act shall become effective and opera
tive as to all its provisions upon the date said special
election results are canvassed and the result judicially
determined, otherwise to be null and void. The expense
of said referendum or special election shall be paid by
the governing authority of the Town of Scotland Neck
but if said Unit and Board are established, then said
Town of Scotland Neck shall be reimbursed by the Board
for said expense as soon as possible.
Sec. 9. All laws and clauses of laws in conflict with
this Act are hereby repealed.
Sec. 10. This Act shall be in full force and effect ac
cording to its provisions from and after its ratification.
In the General Assembly read three times and ratified,
this the 3rd day of March, 1969.
H. P. Taylor, Jr.
H. P. Taylor, Jr.
President of the Senate
Earl W. Vaughn
Earl W. Vaughn
Speaker of the House of
Representatives.
39
PLAINTIFF’S NOTICE OF MOTION AND MOTION
FOR A PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION
TO:
[C aption O m itted]
Mr. W. Lunsford Crew
Attorney at Law
Post Office Box 160
Roanoke Rapids, North Carolina 27870
Attorney for the Halifax County Board of
Education
Mr. Claude K. Josey
Hux, Josey & Livermon
105 West 11th Street
Scotland Neck, North Carolina 27874
Attorney for the Mayor, Board of Commissioners,
Town of Scotland Neck, and the Scotland Neck
City Board of Education
The United States, plaintiff, respectfully moves the
Court for an Order preliminarily enjoining the defend
ants, in accordance with the first paragraph of the prayer
for relief in the proposed Amended Complaint and, fur
ther requiring the defendant Halifax County Board of
Education forthwith to seek the assistance of the Office
of Education of the Department of Health, Education and
Welfare in the preparation and implementation of a plan
to completely disestablish the dual system of schools in
Halifax County at the earliest practicable date.
This motion is based on the pleadings and papers on
file herein and on evidence to be adduced at the hearing.
The grounds for relief are more fully set forth in the
Complaint. Preliminary relief is needed because the
1969-70 school year is scheduled to commence within a
few weeks, and, unless prompt relief is granted, the
schools of Halifax County and Scotland Neck will be
operated on a racially discriminatory basis, as more fully
set forth in the proposed Amended Complaint to the ir
reparable injury of the United States and the Negro
pupils of Halifax County.
40
PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that the United States will
bring this motion on for a hearing at a time and place
to be set by the Court.
Respectfully submitted,
Robert H. Cowen
United States Attorney
/ s / Frank E. Schwelb
Frank E. Schwelb
/ s / Francis H. Kennedy, Jr.
Francis H. Kennedy, Jr.
/ s / Richard W. Bourne
Attorneys
Department of Justice
41
PLA IN TIFFS NOTICE OF MOTION AND MOTION
FOR LEAVE TO JOIN AN ADDITIONAL PARTY
DEFENDANT AND TO FILE AN AMENDED COM
PLAINT
TO:
[C aption O m itted]
Mr. W. Lunsford Crew
Attorney at Law
Post Office Box 160
Roanoke Rapids, North Carolina 27870
Attorney for the Halifax County Board of
Education
Mr. Claude Kitchen Josey
Hux, Josey & Livermon
105 West 11th Street
Scotland Neck, North Carolina 27874
Attorney for the Mayor, Board of Commissioners,
and Town of Scotland Neck, defendants, and for
the Scotland Neck City Board of Education
PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that on the 13th day of
August, 1969, at 10:00 a.m. or as soon thereafter as
counsel may be heard, in the courtroom of the United
States District Court for the Eastern District of North
Carolina, U. S. Federal Building, Trenton, North Caro
lina, the United States will move this Court, pursuant
to Rules 15(a) and 21, F.R.C.P., for leave to join an
additional party defendant and to file an amended com
plaint, and as grounds therefor, shows the Court that:
1. On July 16, 1969, the complaint was filed in this
action, naming as defendants the Halifax County Board
of Education, the Mayor and Board of Commissioners of
the Town of Scotland Neck, and the Town of Scotland
Neck. The complaint alleged, in part here pertinent, that
the provisions of an act of the General Assembly of the
State of North Carolina, known as Chapter 31, 1969
Sessions Laws, created a new separate school system in
Halifax County, North Carolina, known as the Scotland
Neck City Administrative Unit, the governing body of
which is the Scotland Neck City Board of Education,
42
and that the act commands racial segregation in the
public schools of the Halifax County Board of Education.
The complaint prays that Chapter 31 be found uncon
stitutional, and that the defendants be enjoined from
giving any force or effect to its provisions.
2. The Scotland Neck City Board of Education, pur
suant to the command of Chapter 31, is preparing to
operate schools within its jurisdiction, commencing with
the fall term of school in September 1969.
3. In the amended complaint (a) paragraphs 1, 2, 3,
4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 and
22 are the same or with minor changes in wording, sub
stantially the same as paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9,
11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 and 21, respectively,
of the original complaint; (b) paragraphs 6, 11 and 12
are new; and (c) the paragraphs of the original com
plaint numbered 7 and 10 have been omitted. The relief
prayed for in both the original complaint and the amend
ed complaint is the same.
Plaintiff further prays for such additional relief as
the interests of justice may require and for the costs
and disbursements of this action.
/ s / Frank E. Schwelb
Frank E. Schwelb
/ s / Francis H. Kennedy, Jr.
Francis H. Kennedy, Jr.
/ s / Richard W. Bourne
Richard W. Bourne
Attorneys
Department of Justice
43
RESPONSE TO PLAINTIFF’S MOTION FOR A PRE
LIMINARY INJUNCTION, MOTION FOR LEAVE
TO JOIN AN ADDITIONAL PARTY DEFENDANT,
AND MOTION TO FILE AN AMENDED COM
PLAINT
Now come the defendants, Ferd L. Harrison, as Mayor
of the Town of Scotland Neck; J. A. Andrews, F. G.
Shearin, J. I. Walston, as members of the Board of Com
missioners of the Town of Scotland Neck; and the Town
of Scotland Neck, a public body corporate, by and
through their attorney, C. Kitchin Josey, and respectfully
show unto the Court:
[C aption O m itted]
1.
That the plaintiff, the United States of America, has
heretofore filed a motion in this cause for a preliminary
injunction and a motion for leave to file an amended
complaint and to join an additional party, to which mo
tions this response is directed.
2.
The date of August 25, 1969, has been tentatively set
for a hearing by the Court of the above motions of the
plaintiff.
3.
These responding defendants are not sufficiently in
formed and do not have sufficient information concerning
the operation of either the Halifax County Board of
Education or the Scotland Neck City Board of Education
and have no connection whatsoever with the operation of
these schools and education of the children involved to
be able to adequately present evidence and argument
against the plaintiff’s request for a preliminary injunc
tion, which information is exclusively in the hands of the
Scotland Neck City Board of Education, which is not at
this time a party nor will it be a party at the time of
the hearing on August 25, 1969.
44
Although as stated above these responding defendants
do not have any information regarding certain of the
averments contained in plaintiff’s complaint in regards
to the past, present or future operation of the Scotland
Neck City School Administrative Unit or the Halifax
County School Admniistrative Unit, it is clear from the
record that:
(A) The plaintiff, the United States of America, al
though it well knew that Chapter 31 of the 1969 Session
Laws of North Carolina creating the Scotland Neck City
School Administrative Unit was ratified on the 3rd day
of March, 1969, and that the referendum called for
therein was held and a favorable vote given on April 8,
1969, and that the members of the Board of Education
of Scotland Neck were in fact appointed on April 10,
1969, and were sworn into office on April 16, 1969, said
plaintiff waited until June 16, 1969, some two months
after the appointment of the Scotland Neck City Board
of Education, before filing suit to have this cause de
termined.
(B) The original complaint filed on June 16, 1969,
failed to name the Scotland Neck City School Board of
Education as a party defendant, which the plaintiff
knew at the time of said filing was in fact operating the
schools of Scotland Neck under the terms of Chapter 31
of the 1969 Session Laws of North Carolina, but instead
named these responding defendants as parties, none of
whom have any responsibility whatsoever for the opera
tion of said school.
(C) Although the United States of America, the plain
tiff, was under the law and under the rules of civil pro
cedure for the District Courts of the United States and
the Eastern District of North Carolina entitled to re
quest of the Court a preliminary injunction simultaneous
ly with filing its complaint on June 16, 1969, and have
a determination of such preliminary injunction or re
straining order made immediately and certainly by the
end of the month of June, 1969, the United States of
America for reasons known only unto itself delayed the
4.
45
request for a preliminary injunction or restraining order
for such a late period of time that a determination of
this matter w ill not be made until August 25, 1969, ap
proximately two days before the opening of the 1969-1970
school year.
5.
These responding defendants oppose the granting of
the plaintiff’s request for leave to file an amended com
plaint in that said amended complaint continues to in
clude these respondents as party defendants when as set
forth in these respondents’ answer heretofore filed, which
answer is asked to be taken as a part of this response
to plaintiff’s motions, it clearly appears that said pro
posed amended complaint should not include these de
fendants in that they have no responsibility or obliga
tions toward the operation or maintenance of the Scotland
Neck City School Administrative Unit or the Halifax
County School Administrative Unit and that these va
rious causes of action as averred by the plaintiff can be
prosecuted to a complete conclusion without the presence
of these defendants as parties thereto and that the reten
tion of the defendants, Ferd L. Harrison, as Mayor of
the Town of Scotland Neck; J. A. Andrews, F. G.
Shearin, Frank P. Shields and J. I. Walston, as members
of the Board of Commissioners of the Town of Scotland
Neck; and the Town of Scotland Neck, a public body
corporate, as parties to this action will be superfluous
and cause unnecessary expense and inconvenience to all
parties of this action including the United States of
America and particularly to the said defendants.
46
WHEREFORE, these responding defendants respect
fully request the Court that the plaintiff’s motions not
be granted and in any event not be granted until a hear
ing be held on all of said motions to permit these respond
ing defendants to be heard.
/ s / C. Kitchin Josey
C. Kitchin Josey
Attorney for Defendants:
Ferd L. Harrison, as Mayor
of the Town of Scotland
Neck; J. A. Andrews, F. G.
Shearin, Frank P. Shields
and J. I. Walston, as mem
bers of the Board of Com
missioners of the Town of
Scotland Neck, a public
body corporate
47
ANSWER
The defendants, Ferd L. Harrison, as Mayor of the
Town of Scotland Neck; J. A. Andrews, F. G. Shearin,
Frank P. Shields and J. I. Walston, as members of the
Board of Commissioners of the Town of Scotland Neck;
and the Town of Scotland Neck, a public body corporate,
answering the complaint of the plaintiff says and alleges:
1.
That as to the averments contained in Paragraph One,
Claim One, these answering defendants are without
knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as
to the truth of these averments and hence deny same.
2.
The averments contained in Paragraphs Two and Three,
Claim One, are admitted.
[C aption O m itted]
3.
It is denied that Frank P. Shields was at the time of
the filing of the complaint or at the time of service of
said complaint or at any time subsequent was or is a
member of the Board of Commissioners of the Town of
Scotland Neck; but all other averments of Paragraph
Four, Claim One, are admitted.
4.
The averments contained in Paragraph Five, Claim
One, are admitted.
5.
That as to the averments contained in Paragraph Six,
Claim One, these answering defendants are without
knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as
to the truth of said averments and, therefore, deny same.
48
That as to the averments contained in Paragraph
Seven, Claim One, it is admitted that the defendant Board
of Education prior to April 8, 1969, did control and
operate one school within the geographical boundaries of
the Town of Scotland Neck, said school being predomi
nantly white and known as the Scotland Neck School;
all other averments are denied.
7.
The averments contained in Paragraphs Eight and
Nine, Claim One, are admitted.
8 .
That as to the averments contained in Paragraph Ten,
Claim One, these answering defendants are without
knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as
to the truth of said averments and, therefore, deny same.
9.
The averments contained in Paragraph Eleven, Claim
One, are admitted.
10.
The averments contained in Paragraphs Twelve, Thir
teen, Fourteen, and Fifteen, Claim One, are denied.
11.
That as to the averments contained in Paragraphs
Sixteen, Seventeen, Eighteen, Nineteen, Twenty and
Twenty-One, the entire Claim Two, these answering de
fendants are without knowledge or information sufficient
to form a belief as to the truth of said averments and,
therefore, deny same.
FURTHER ANSWERING the complaint of the plain
tiff, these answering defendants say that under the terms
of Chapter 31 of the 1969 Session Laws of North Caro
lina as more fully set forth in plaintiff’s Exhibit A, the
6.
49
Board of Commissioners of the Town of Scotland Neck
did in fact on the 10th day of April, 1969, appoint five
members of the Scotland Neck City Board of Education;
namely, Walter T. Anderson, Aubrey Powell, Frank P.
Shields, F. Boyd Bailey and Martha H. Holloman; and
since that date said School Board has in fact operated
the Scotland Neck City School Administrative Unit and
these answering defendants have had no duties to per
form in connection with said operation and have no con
trol whatsoever over the operation of said School Admin
istrative Unit; that said City School Board is an indis
pensable and necessary party to this action and these
answering defendants are not such necessary or indis
pensable parties, but are mere stake holders.
WHEREFORE, these answering defendants pray the
Court:
(1) That this action be dismissed as to the defendant,
Frank P. Shields, as a member of the Board of Commis
sioners of the Town of Scotland Neck.
(2) That this action be dismissed as to Ferd L. Har
rison as Mayor of the Town of Scotland Neck, J. A.
Andrews, F. G. Shearin and J. I. Walston, as members
of the Board of Commissioners of the Town of Scotland
Neck; and the Town of Scotland Neck, a public body
corporate, in that they are not the real party in interest;
and the plaintiff has not joined as a party the Scotland
Neck City School Board as a defendant, which School
Board is an indispensable party defendant.
(3) That this action be dismissed in its entirety for
that the plaintiff has attempted to join in one action a
claim against the defendant Halifax County Board of
Education for violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964
and a claim against the Town Commissioners of Scot
land Neck in which the plaintiff asserts that Chapter 31
of the 1969 Session Laws of North Carolina is in viola
tion of the United States Constitution and requests the
Court to enjoin the Town Commissioners from perform
ing their duties under said Session Laws, all of which
is a misjoinder of causes and parties.
50
(4) That if this action is not dismissed as against
these answering defendants for the reasons mentioned in
one through three above that the Court together with a
jury hear all evidence and determine all issues and make
a declaration that Chapter 31 of the 1969 Session Laws
of North Carolina is not in violation of the Fourteenth
Amendment to the United States Constitution and that
this action be dismissed.
(5) That the costs and disbursements of this action
be taxed against the plaintiff and for such other and
further relief as may be just and proper in law and
equity.
,/s/ C. Kitchin Josey
C. Kitchin Josey
Attorney for Defendants:
Ferd L. Harrison, as Mayor
of the Town of Scotland
Neck; J. A. Andrews, F. G.
Shearin, Frank P. Shields
and J. I. Walston, as mem
bers of the Board of Com
missioners of the Town of
Scotland Neck, a public
body corporate
51
RESPONSE TO PLAINTIFF’S MOTION FOR A PRE
LIMINARY INJUNCTION, MOTION FOR LEAVE
TO JOIN AN ADDITIONAL PARTY DEFENDANT,
AND MOTION TO FILE AN AMENDED COM
PLAINT
Now comes the defendant, Halifax County Board of
Education, a body corporate, by and through its attor
ney, W. Lunsford Crew, and respectfully shows unto
the court:
1. That the plaintiff, the United States of America,
has heretofore filed a motion in this cause for leave to
file an amended complaint and to join an additional party
defendant and a motion to have a preliminary injunction
granted to which motions this response is directed.
2. A hearing by the court of the above motions of the
plaintiff has been set for August 25, 1969.
3. That this responding defendant does not have suf
ficient knowledge regarding the operations of the Scot
land Neck City Board of Education or the Town of Scot
land Neck, as said defendant, neither sponsored or en
couraged the creation of the Scotland Neck City School
Administrative Unit, to enable it to properly present
evidence or argument against plaintiff’s request for in
junctive and other relief sought against said boards.
4. That in further response to plaintiff’s motions with
respect to this answering defendant, said defendant al
leges :
(A) The plaintiff, United States of America did not
institute this action until June 16, 1969, though all of
the facts and allegations set forth in its complaint were
known to said plaintiff since March 3, 1969 and said
plaintiff had common knowledge of the opening and clos
ing dates of the Halifax County Public Schools for sev
eral months and even years prior to the institution of
this action.
(B) The plaintiff, United States of America failed to
request a preliminary injunction or restraining order
[C aption O m itted]
52
when its complaint was filed on June 16, 1969, but de
layed for such an unreasonable period of time that a
hearing date for said motion could not be had until Au
gust 25, 1969, the same week that the Halifax County
Schools and the Scotland Neck City Schools are scheduled
to begin operation for the 1969-70 school year.
(C) That this answering defendant says that it has
at all times attempted to comply with the laws of the
State of North Carolina and the United States of Amer
ica; though the problems confronting said defendant are
unique in that there are approximately 10,655 students
in the county system, 8196 are Negro, 2357 are white
and 102 Indian with 322 Negro teachers, 123 white and
2 Indians; that said defendant began integration in Hali
fax County Schools in 1964 when six Negro students were
assigned to and attended the Enfield School; that after
passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1964, the schools of
Halifax County were operated on a Freedom of Choice
Basis for 1965 & 66 under plans prepared by defendant
and approved by the United States office of Education
and during 1966-67 and 1967-68 under plans prepared
by the United States office of Education; that said Free
dom of Choice resulted in approximately 350 Negro and
Indian pupils attending predominantly white schools and
12 teachers teaching across racial lines; that in the sum
mer of 1968, this defendant submitted a proposal to the
Justice Department which would transfer approximately
600 additional students and 20 additional teachers to
schools other than their predominant race at the begin
ning of the 1968-69 school year and proposed further
steps for the 1969-70 school year and complete desegre
gation of the school system not later than the 1970-71
school year which plan was rejected by the United States
Department of Justice; that subsequently the Board sub
mitted to the Department of Justice another plan pro
viding for the transfer of seventh and eighth-grades from
three all Negro schools (approximately 397 additional
students) to predominantly white schools; the transfer
of seventh grade from one all Negro school, (approxi
58
mately 116 additional students) to a predominantly white
school and the transfer of 18 additional Negro teachers
from all Negro schools to predominantly white schools
and to assign the transferred students and teachers to
classes without regard to race or color and to present a
plan on or before March 15, 1969 for complete disestab
lishment of the dual school system and complete compli
ance with the provisions of the Civil Rights Act at the
beginning of the school year 1969-70 which plan was
accepted by the Justice Department on August 22, 1968;
that on February 8, 1969, the defendant adopted a plan
which is attached hereto and labeled defendant, Board
of Education’s Exhibit A and incorporated herein by
reference which plan was submitted to the Justice De
partment on February 10, 1969; that said plan was re
jected by the Department of Justice on March 3, 1969
and the defendant board adopted a resolution to operate
its schools on a Freedom of Choice Plan for the school
year 1969-70 due to the many unknown factors beyond
the control of said defendant Board, which factors in
cluded a bill in the General Assembly creating the Scot
land Neck School Unit and the Littleton-Lake Gaston
School District, and a survey report which included an
interim report and long range plans recommended by the
Division of School Planning of the North Carolina De
partment of Public Instruction; that it was impossible
and impractical for this defendant to proceed with addi
tional plans until the number of administrative units
and the number of students for assignment and the loca
tion of the new consolidated schools became known.
That this defendant neither initiated nor encouraged
the creation of the Scotland Neck School Unit nor the
Littleton-Lake Gaston School Unit, but cannot proceed
with intelligence until the future of these units is judi
cially determined.
(D) The plaintiff, United States of America even if
it had had a right and been entitled to the injunctive
relief and restraining order, if it had requested the same
when the original complaint was filed in this action,
which right this answering defendant emphatically de
nies, it has abdicated such right by waiting until two
54
days before the opening date of school to request such
relief.
5. This responding defendant opposes the granting of
the plaintiff’s request for a preliminary injunction in
that it would be detrimental to the education of all the
children _ enrolled in the Halifax County School System
in that it would now be impossible for this defendant to
make the necessary changes in two days before the open
ing of school or during the 1969-70 school year for the
transfer of students and teachers from class to class or
school to school, would be contrary to the accepted prac
tices of good and efficient teaching.
6. That as set forth in detail above and in this de
fendant’s answer, this defendant has conscientiously and
consistently adopted and suggested changes the end re
sult of which would be increased integration in the public
schools of Halifax County; that if the plaintiff through
its agent, the Justice Department had not refused to
accept the tentative and final plans for complete integra
tion of the Halifax County Public School System, total
integration would now be an accomplished fact.
7. That until the constitutionality of the Scotland Neck
City School Unit and the Littleton-Lake Gaston School
Unit has been finally judicially determined, this defend
ant cannot prepare a feasible plan of desegregation in
its_ schools for_ the number of schools, administrative
units, and pupils will not be finally known until that
time; that by the time a judicial determination is made,
this defendant will have additional information with re
spect to the recommended consolidation of its high schools,
which recommendation is being vigorously pursued, and
can then submit a lawful and intelligent, workable and
acceptable plan for the following school year, thus avoid
ing disruptive transfers and practices during the 1969-
70 school year.
8. That the injunctive relief sought by the plaintiff,
United States of America if granted would result in
irreparable injury of the plaintiff and all of the Negro
and white children in the public schools of Halifax
County.
55
WHEREFORE, this responding defendant respect
fully requests the court that the plaintiff’s motion for
injunctive relief not be granted now and not be granted
until a hearing is held on all motions and pleadings and
all issues raised by said pleadings be heard and finally
adjudicated.
/ s / W. Lunsford Crew
W. Lunsford Crew
Attorney for Defendant,
Halifax County Board of
Education
56
ANSWER
The defendant, Halifax County Board of Education, a
body corporate, answering the complaint, alleges and
says:
1. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
1, Claim One, this answering defendant is without knowl
edge or information sufficient to form a belief as to the
truth of said allegations and hence denies the same.
2. The allegations contained in Paragraphs 2 and 3,
Claim One, are admitted.
3. The allegations contained in Paragraph 4, Claim
One, are not denied.
4. That the allegations contained in Paragraph 5,
Claim One, are admitted.
5. The allegations contained in Paragraph 6, Claim
One, are denied.
6. The averments contained in Paragraph 7, Claim
One, are denied as the school therein referred to is now
operated by the Scotland Neck City Board of Education.
7. The allegations contained in Paragraphs 8 and 9,
Claim One, are admitted.
8. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
10, Claim One, this answering defendant is without
knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief as
to the truth of said allegations and therefore denies the
same.
9. The allegations contained in Paragraph 11, Claim
One, are admitted.
10. The allegations contained in Paragraphs 12, 13,
14 and 15, Claim One, are denied.
11. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
16, Claim Two, Paragraphs 1 and 6 incorporated therein
are denied; Paragraphs 2 and 8 are admitted and Para
graph 3 is not denied.
12. The allegations contained in Paragraph 17, Claim
Two, are admitted.
13. The allegations contained in Paragraphs 18, 19,
20 and 21, Claim Two, are denied.
[C aption O m itted]
57
FURTHER ANSWERING the complaint of the plain
tiff, this answering defendant says that it has at all
times attempted to comply with the laws of the State of
North Carolina and the United States of America; though
the problems confronting said defendant are unique in
that there are approximately 10,655 students in the
county system, 8196 are Negro, 2357 are white and 102
Indian with 322 Negro teachers, 123 white and 2 In
dians; that said defendant began integration in Halifax
County Schools in 1964 when Six Negro students were
assigned to and attended the Enfield School; that after
passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1964, the schools of
Halifax County were operated on a Freedom of Choice
Basis for 1965 & 66 under plans prepared by defendant
and approved by the United States office of Education
and during 1966-67 and 1967-68 under plans prepared by
the United States office of Education; that said Freedom
of Choice resulted in approximately 350 Negro and In
dian pupils attending predominantly white schools and
12 teachers teaching across racial lines; that in the sum
mer of 1968, this defendant submitted a proposal to the
Justice Department which would transfer approximately
600 additional students and 20 additional teachers to
schools other than their predominant race at the begin
ning of the 1968-69 school year and proposed further
steps for the 1969-70 school year and complete desegre
gation of the school system not later than the 1970-71
school year which plan was rejected by the United States
Department of Justice; that subsequently the Board sub
mitted to the Department of Justice another plan pro
viding for the transfer of seventh and eighth grades
from three all Negro schools (approximately 397 addi
tional students) to predominantly white schools; the
transfer of seventh grade from one all Negro school, (ap
proximately 116 additional students) to a predominantly
white school and the transfer of 18 additional Negro
teachers from all Negro schools to predominantly white
schools and to assign the transferred students and teach
ers to classes without regard to race or color and to
present a plan on or before March 15, 1969 for complete
disestablishment of the dual school system and complete
58
compliance with the provisions of the Civil Rights Act
at the beginning of the school year 1969-70 which plan
was accepted by the Justice Department on August 22,
1968; that on February 8, 1969, the defendant adopted
a plan which is attached hereto and labeled defendant,
Board of Education’s Exhibit A and incorporated herein
by reference which plan was submitted to the Justice
Department on February 10, 1969; that said plan was
rejected by the Department of Justice on March 3, 1969
and the defendant board adopted a resolution to operate
its schools on a Freedom of Choice Plan for the school
year 1969-70 due to the many unknown factors beyond
the control of said defendant Board, which factors in
cluded a bill in the General Assembly creating the Scot
land Neck School Unit and the Littleton-Lake Gaston
School District, and a survey report which included an
interim report and long range plans recommended by the
Division of School Planning of the North Carolina De
partment of Public Instruction; that it was impossible
and impractical for this defendant to proceed with addi
tional plans until the number of administrative units
and the number of students for assignment and the loca
tion of the new consolidated schools became known.
That this defendant neither initiated nor encouraged
the creation of the Scotland Neck School Unit nor the
Littleton-Lake Gaston School Unit, but cannot proceed
with intelligence until the future of these units is judi
cially determined.
WHEREFORE, this answering defendant prays the
court:
1. That this action be dismissed as to this defendant
as the defendant was not a party to the creation of the
Scotland Neck School Unit.
2. That this action be dismissed in its entirety for
the plaintiff has attempted to join in one action a claim
against the Town Commissioners of Scotland Neck in
which it is alleged that Chapter 31 of the 1969 Session
Laws of the State of North Carolina is in violation of
the United States and a claim against this defendant,
Halifax County Board of Education for violation of the
59
Civil Rights Act of 1964 which is a misjoinder of causes
and parties.
3. That this defendant be allowed a minimum of ninety
days after the final judicial determination of the legality
of the Scotland Neck School Unit and the Littleton-Lake
Gaston School Unit in which to submit tentative plans
to the proper authority for implementation of the inte
gration of the schools within its system pursuant to law.
4. That if this action is not dismissed as against this
answering defendant for the reasons above set forth that
the court together with a jury hear all evidence and de
termine all issues and make the necessary declaration
and finding raised in this action.
5. That the cost and disbursement of this action be
taxed against the plaintiff and for such other and fur
ther relief as may be just and proper.
/ V W. Lunsford Crew
W. Lunsford Crew
Attorney for Defendant,
Halifax County Board of
Education
60
NOTICE OF HEARING
TO COUNSEL OF RECORD:
TAKE NOTICE that the above-entitled cases have
been set for hearing in the United States District Court
room, Post Office Building, Raleigh, North Carolina on
Thursday, August 21, 1969, at 10:00 A.M., before Butler
and Larkins, United States District Judges. The cases
will be consolidated for hearing and heard upon the
following issues: (1) The constitutionality of certain
local acts of the 1969 North Carolina General Assembly
described in the pleadings; and (2) preliminary and
permanent injunction restraining the defendants from
enforcing and applying state statutes, and (3) any other
motions.
Counsel are directed to submit a copy of brief or
memorandum in support of their respective contentions
to each of the district judges on or before noon on
Wednesday, August 20, 1969.
/ s / Algernon L. Butler
Chief Judge
United States District Court
[C aption O m itted]
August 14, 1969
61
ORDER
The plaintiff having filed its motion for leave to add
the Scotland Neck City Board of Education as an addi
tional party defendant and for leave to file an amended
complaint, and it appearing to the court that the motion
should be granted.
IT IS ORDERED, ADJUDGED AND DECREED that
the clerk shall forthwith file the amended complaint in
this action. The United States Marshal shall forthwith
serve a copy of the complaint on the defendants named
in the amended complaint, and pursuant to Rule 15(a ),
Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, the defendants shall
file their answer or other pleading with respect to the
amended complaint prior to noon August 20th 1969.
ORDERED this 15 day of August, 1969.
[C aption O m itted]
/ s / John D. Larkins, Jr.
J ohn D. Larkins, Jr.
United States District Judge
62
AMENDED COMPLAINT
CLAIM ONE
The plaintiff, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, al
leges :
1. This action is instituted by the United States of
America, pursuant to Sections 407(a) and (b) of the
Civil Rights Act of 1964, 42 U.S.C. §§ 2000c-6(a) and
(b). The statutory requirements for bringing such an
action under 42 U.S.C. §§2000c-6(a) and (b) have been
met as follows:
(a) The former Attorney General, Nicholas deB.
Katzenbach, received complaints in writing signed
by parents to the effect that their minor children,
as members of a class of persons similarly situ
ated, are being deprived by the defendant Halifax
County Board of Education of the equal protec
tion of the laws;
(b) The Attorney General has certified that he be
lieves these complaints to be meritorious;
(c) Attached to the original complaint filed herein is
the Attorney General’s certification that:
(1) the signers of the complaints are unable, in
his judgment, to initiate and maintain appro
priate legal proceedings for relief and that
the institution of this action will materially
further the orderly achievement of desegre
gation in public education;
(2) after giving notice of the complaints to the
defendant Halifax County Board of Educa
tion, he is satisfied that the Board has had a
reasonable time to adjust the conditions al
leged in such complaint.
2. This Court has jurisdiction of this action under
28 U.S.C. § 1345 and 42 U.S.C. § 2000c-6.
[C aption O m itted]
63
3. The defendant Halifax County Board of Education
(hereinafter the Halifax County Board) is a body cor
porate, organized and existing under the laws of the
State of North Carolina. It has the duty under North
Carolina law to operate a public school system in Halifax
County, North Carolina, which is located in the Eastern
District of North Carolina.
4. This action is brought against the defendant Ferd
L. Harrison in his official capacity as Mayor of the Town
of Scotland Neck, and against the defendants J. A. An
drews, F. G. Shearin, D. E. Josey, Jr., and J. I. Wal
ston, in their official capacities as members of the Board
of Commissioners of the said Town of Scotland Neck.
The Mayor and the Board of Commissioners constitute
the governing authority of the Town of Scotland Neck.
In their official capacities these defendants are charged
under North Carolina law with conducting the operations
of the municipal government of the Town of Scotland
Neck, and in particular, are charged under Chapter 31,
1969 Sessions Laws, with appointing the initial members
of the Scotland Neck City Board of Education. These
defendants reside in the Town of Scotland Neck within
the Eastern District of North Carolina.
5. The Town of Scotland Neck is a public body cor
porate, organized and existing under the laws of the
State of North Carolina and located in Halifax County
within the Eastern District of North Carolina. This de
fendant is charged under North Carolina law with pro
viding municipal government within its jurisdiction, and
in particular, with levying and collecting taxes within
its jurisdiction, including the taxes authorized by Chap
ter 31, 1969 Sessions Laws to be paid over to the Scot
land Neck City Administrative Unit.
6. The Scotland Neck City Board of Education (here
inafter the Scotland Neck Board) is a body corporate,
organized and existing under the law of the State of
North Carolina known as Chapter 31. It has the duty
under North Carolina law to operate a public school sys
tem in the Town of Scotland Neck, in Halifax County,
North Carolina, which is located in the Eastern District
of North Carolina.
64
7. Prior to the 1965-66 school year the defendant Hali
fax County Board operated a completely segregated school
system based on race. Since that time this defendant
has operated its school system pursuant to a freedom-of-
choice plan of desegregation, modified for the year 1968-
69 by the assignment of some additional Negroes to de
segregated schools. During the 1968-69 school year this
defendant operated a total of seventeen schools, four of
which have historically been maintained for white per
sons, and thirteen of which have historically been main
tained for Negroes. During the school year 1968-69 all
of the approximately 2357 white pupils in the district
remained in traditionally white schools and 91% of the
approximately 8195 Negro pupils remained in all-Negro
schools.
8. The defendant Halifax County Board proposes to
assign students to schools for the 1969-70 school year
pursuant to its freedom-of-choice plan of desegregation.
9. On or about March 3, 1969, there was enacted into
law a statute known as “Chapter 31, 1969 Sessions
Laws,” (hereafter referred to as Chapter 31) a copy of
which is attached herewith as Exhibit A. Chapter 31
provides, in pertinent part, for the creation of a new
public school administrative unit to be known as the
Scotland Neck City Administrative Unit. The creation
of this special school system was made subject to ma
jority approval at a special election held only for the
voters of Scotland Neck. Chapter 31 further provides
that upon the approval of a majority of the voters and
the creation of the Scotland Neck City Administrative
Unit, all school properties located within the new school
system and all monies allocated for schools within the
new school system, shall become the property of the new
system, and legal title to such school properties shall be
transferred by the Halifax County Board to the new
Scotland Neck City Administrative Unit. After approval
of the new school system, the Mayor and Board of Com
missioners of Scotland Neck are required to appoint the
initial members of the Scotland Neck City Board of Edu
cation, which is to administer the new school system.
65
10. On April 8, 1969 a special election was held in
Scotland Neck pursuant to the provisions of Chapter 31,
in which a majority of the votes cast were in behalf of
approving the creation of the Scotland Neck City Ad
ministrative Unit. The provisions of Chapter 31 became
effective and operative on or about April 8, 1969.
11. Pursuant to the provisions of Chapter 31, the
Halifax County Board has relinquished to the Scotland
Neck Board control and operation of school facilities lo
cated in Scotland Neck, which the Halifax County Board
controlled and operated during the 1968-69 school year.
But for the operation of Chapter 31, the Halifax County
Board would control and operate these school facilities
for the 1969-70 school year.
12. The Scotland Neck Board has hired a Superin
tendent of Schools, and is preparing to open its schools
for the semester beginning in the fall of 1969. The
Scotland Neck Board proposes to assign, or has assigned,
for the 1969-70 school year, all of the 399 white pupils
and the 298 Negro pupils residing within the Town of
Scotland Neck, to schools under its jurisdiction. During
the 1968-69 school year these pupils attended schools
operated by the Halifax County Board.
13. The enactment and implementation of Chapter 31
commands, encourages and fosters segregation based on
race or color in the operation of the public schools of
Halifax County in that it interferes with the further
desegregation of the schools of the Halifax County Board
by limiting the opportunity for Negro public school chil
dren residing in the jurisdiction of the Halifax County
Board but outside the Town of Scotland Neck to obtain
a desegregated education.
14. Chapter 31 sets up a separate school system which,
on grounds of its size and pupil enrollment, has no edu
cational justification and is contrary to general North
Carolina policy of consolidating schools and school sys
tems.
15. The enactment and implementation of Chapter 31,
for the reasons set out in paragraphs 13 and 14, denies
equal protection of the laws to Negro children of school
age residing in the jurisdiction of the Halifax County
66
Board, outside the boundaries of Scotland Neck, in vio
lation of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States
Constitution.
16. Unless restrained by order of this Court the de
fendants as described in the preceding paragraphs will
continue to give force and effect to the provisions of
Chapter 31 to the injury of the Negro school-age children
residing in the areas formerly within the jurisdiction of
the defendant Halifax County Board.
CLAIM TWO
17. Paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 7, and 8 of Claim One of this
complaint are realleged in this Claim and incorporated
herein by reference as if fully set out.
18. The defendant Halifax County Board for the 1968-
69 school year assigned 5 white teachers and 31 Negro
teachers to schools where the faculties and student bodies
were predominantly or exclusively of the opposite race,
while assigning 118 white teachers and 386 Negro teach
ers to schools where the faculties and student bodies
were predominantly or exclusively of the same race. All
of the schools under the Halifax County Board remain
racially identifiable by the composition of their faculties.
19. There are educationally sound alternative methods
of student assignment available to the defendant Halifax
County Board, such as geographic zoning, or consolida
tion of schools or grades or both, which promise a speedier
and more effective conversion to a unitary, nonracial
school system than the freedom-of-choice plan presently
in effect. The technical assistance of the Department of
Health, Education and Welfare is available to the de
fendants pursuant to 47 U.S.C. 2000c-2 et seq. in the
preparation, adoption and implementation of a suitable
alternative plan.
20. The defendant Halifax County Board in operating
and maintaining a public school system within Halifax
County has failed and refused to adopt and implement a
desegregation plan which will convert the dual system
based on race into a unitary, nonracial school system at
the earliest practicable date, and has further failed and
67
refused to eliminate and offset the continuing effects of
its past discrimination.
21. The acts, practices, and policies of the defendant
described herein deny equal protection of the laws to
Negro children of school age residing in the jurisdiction
of the defendant Halifax County Board, in violation of
the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Consti
tution.
22. Unless restrained by order of this Court, the de
fendant Halifax County Board will continue to deny
equal protection of the laws to Negro children residing
in the jurisdiction of this defendant in Halifax County
as more fully appears in Claim Two of this complaint.
WHEREFORE, the plaintiff prays that this Court,
after a hearing, find the provisions of Chapter 31 in
violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the Four
teenth Amendment, declare the said Chapter 31 null and
void, and enter an order enjoining the defendants, their
officers, agents, employees, and successors, and all per
sons in active concert or participation with any of them
from giving any force or effect to the provisions of Chap
ter 31, from continuing to give any force or effect to
any action heretofore taken pursuant thereto, and from
doing any thing or act which may be called for in the
provisions of Chapter 31.
The plaintiff further prays that this Court enter an
order enjoining the defendant Halifax County Board of
Education, its officers, employees, agents and successors,
and all persons in active concert or participation with
any of them, from failing or refusing to afford equal
educational opportunities to all students in the jurisdic
tion of the Halifax County Board of Education without
regard to race, and requiring said persons to take prompt
affirmative steps to eliminate the racial identities of the
schools of said school system with respect to pupils, facul
ties, transportation, and new construction, and to assign
pupils to schools without regard to their race on the
basis of unitary geographic attendance zones, consolida
tion of grades or schools or both, or some other system
of assignment not based on the choice of the pupil or his
68
parent. The plaintiff further prays that the defendants
be ordered to seek such technical assistance as may be
necessary from the Office of Education of the Depart
ment of Health, Education and Welfare for the prepara
tion and submission of a plan to accomplish this result
at the earliest practicable date.
. Plaintiff further prays that this Court grant such ad
ditional relief as the needs of justice may require, to
gether with the costs and disbursements of this action.
John N. Mitchell
Attorney General
Jerris Leonard
Assistant Attorney General
Robert H. Cowen
United States Attorney
Frank E. Schwelb
Attorney
Department of Justice
69
[Caption Omitted]
ANSWER
The defendants, Ferd L. Harrison, as Mayor of the
Town of Scotland Neck; J. A. Andrews, F. G. Shearin,
and J. I. Walston, and D. E. Josey, Jr., as members of
the Board of Commissioners of the Town of Scotland
Neck; the Town of Scotland Neck, a public body corpo
rate, answering the amended complaint, allege and say:
1. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
1, Claim One, these answering defendants are not suffi
ciently informed concerning the averments contained
therein from which to form a belief and hence deny same.
2. That the allegations contained in Paragraph 2 of
Claim One are admitted.
3. That the allegations contained in Paragraph 3 of
Claim One are admitted.
4. That the allegations contained in Paragraph 4 of
Claim One are admitted.
5. That the allegations contained in Paragraph 5 of
Claim One are admitted.
6. That the allegations contained in Paragraph 6 of
Claim One are admitted.
7. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
7, Claim One, these answering defendants are not suffi
ciently informed concerning the averments contained
therein from which to form a belief and hence deny same.
8. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
8, Claim One, these answering defendants are not suffi
ciently informed concerning the averments contained
therein from which to form a belief and hence deny same.
9. That the allegations contained in Paragraph 9,
Claim One, are admitted.
10. That the allegations contained in Paragraph 10
of Claim One are admitted.
11. That the allegations contained in Paragraph 11
of Claim One are admitted.
12. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
12, Claim One, these answering defendants are not suffi
70
ciently informed concerning the averments contained
therein from which to form a belief and hence deny same.
13. The allegations and averments contained in Para
graph 13, Claim One are denied.
14. The allegations and averments contained in Para
graph 14, Claim One are denied.
15. The allegations and averments contained in Para
graph 15, Claim One are denied.
16. The allegations and averments contained in Para
graph 16, Claim One are denied.
17. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
17 of Claim Two which realleges Paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 7
and 8 of Claim One these defendants answer said para
graph in the same manner as above.
18. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
18, Claim Two, these answering defendants are not suffi
ciently informed concerning the averments contained
therein from which to form a belief an dhence deny same.
19. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
19, Claim Two, these answering defendants are not suffi
ciently informed concerning the averments contained
therein from which to form a belief and hence deny same.
20. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
20, Claim Two, these answering defendants are not suffi
ciently informed concerning the averments contained
therein from which to form a belief and hence deny same.
21. The allegations and averments contained in Para
graph 21, Claim Two are denied.
22. The allegations and averments contained in Para
graph 22, Claim Two are denied.
WHEREFORE, these answering defendants pray the
Court that the relief as prayed for by the plaintiff be
denied and that the plaintiff be taxed with the costs and
disbursements of this action.
71
DEFENDANTS further pray that this action be dis
missed as against them as set forth in its motion hereto
fore made.
/ s / C. Kitchin Josey
C. Kitchin Josey
Attorney for Defendants:
Ferd L. Harrison, as Mayor
of the Town of Scotland
Neck; J. A. Andrews, F. G.
Shearin, J. I. Walston, and
D. E. Josey, Jr., as mem
bers of the Board of Com
missioners of the Town of
Scotland Neck; and the
Town of Scotland Neck, a
public body corporate
72
[Caption Omitted]
ANSWER
The defendant, The Scotland Neck City Board of Edu
cation, a body corporate, answering the amended com
plaint, alleges and says:
1. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
1, Claim One, the answering defendant is not sufficiently
informed concerning the averments contained therein
from which to form a belief and hence denies same.
2. That the allegations contained in Paragraph 2 of
Claim One are admitted.
3; That the allegations contained in Paragraph 3 of
Claim One are admitted.
4. That the allegations contained in Paragraph 4 of
Claim One are admitted.
5; That the allegations contained in Paragraph 5 of
Claim One are admitted.
6; That the allegations contained in Paragraph 6 of
Claim One are admitted.
7. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
7, Claim One, the answering defendant is not sufficiently
informed concerning the averments contained therein
from which to form a belief and hence denies same.
8. That the allegations contained in Paragraph 8 of
Claim One are admitted.
9. That the allegations contained in Paragraph 9 of
Claim One are admitted.
10. That the allegations contained in Paragraph 10 of
Claim One are admitted.
11. That the allegations contained in Paragraph 11 of
Claim One are admitted.
12. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
12 of Claim One it is admitted that the Scotland Neck
Board has hired a Superintendent of Schools and is pre
pared to open its schools for students on August 28, 1969,
and it is further admitted that the vast majority of the
students who will attend the schools of the Scotland Neck
City Administrative Unit during the 1969-70 school year
73
attended schools operated by the Halifax County Board
during the previous year; all other allegations contained
in Paragraph 12 are denied.
13. The allegations and averments contained in Para
graph 13, Claim One are denied.
14. The allegations and averments contained in Para
graph 14, Claim One are denied.
15. The allegations and averments contained in Para
graph 15, Claim One are denied.
16. It is admitted that unless restrained by order of
the Court this answering defendant will continue to give
full force and effect to the provisions of Chapter 31; all
other allegations contained in Paragraph 16 are denied.
17. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
17 of Claim Two which realleges Paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 7
and 8 of Claim One this defendant answers said para
graph in the same manner as above.
18. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
18, Claim Two, the answering defendant is not suffi
ciently informed concerning the averments contained
therein from which to form a belief and hence denies
same.
19. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
19, Claim Two, the answering defendant is not suffi
ciently informed concerning the averments contained
therein from which to form a belief and hence denies
same.
20. That as to the allegations contained in Paragraph
20, Claim Two, the answering defendant is not suffi
ciently informed concerning the averments contained
therein from which to form a belief and hence denies
same.
21. The allegations and averments contained in Para
graph 21, Claim Two are denied.
22. The allegations and averments contained in Para
graph 22, Claim Two are denied.
FURTHER ANSWERING PLAINTIFF’S amended
complaint this answering defendant says and alleges:
1. That summons was served on this defendant and
this defendant was made a party to this action on Satur
74
day, August 16, 1969; which summons stated “You are
hereby summoned and required to serve upon Robert H.
Cowen, United States Attorney, plaintiff’s attorney, whose
address Post Office Building, Raleigh, N. C. an answer
to the complaint which is herewith served upon you, no
later than 12:00 noon, August 20, 1969. If you fail to
do so, judgment by default will be taken against you for
the relief demanded in the complaint.” ; which under
Rule 6 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure gave this
defendant only two and one-half days within which to
file this answer.
2. That this answering defendant has not had suffi
cient time to engage and confer with its attorney or to
prepare this answer and set forth the defenses which it
might have to plaintiff’s amended complaint and cer
tainly has not had sufficient time to adequately prepare
its defense for a trial of this action on its merits.
3. That although this defendant has not been officially
or legally notified of any such trial directly or through
its counsel it is in fact aware of the existence of an
order which Honorable Algernon L. Butler apparently
entered prior to this answering defendant becoming a
party to this action setting the trial, at least against all
other defendants, for ten a.m. Thursday, August 21,
1969.
4. That in the event that this answering defendant is
required to be present at said trial and present such
defense as it has, it will be totally unable to properly
present its defenses in that it has had a total of three
days within which to file an answer and prepare and
present its defenses.
WHEREFORE, this answering defendant prays the
Court that it be given additional time to properly pre
pare and file its answer up to and including the 5th day
of September, 1969, as permitted by Rule 12A of the
Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.
This answering defendant further prays the Court
that the trial of this action on its merits not be sched
uled until such time as this defendant can through the
75
discovery procedures permitted by the Federal Rules of
Civil Procedure adequately prepare for trial.
This answering defendant further prays the Court that
in any event this action be dismissed and the plaintiff
denied each and every prayer set forth in its amended
complaint and that the plaintiff be taxed with the costs
and disbursements of this action.
/ s / C. Kitchin Josey
C. Kitchin Josey
Attorney for Defendant:
The Scotland Neck City
Board of Education, a body
corporate
76
* * * *
[5] JUDGE BUTLER: Pursuant to notice to counsel,
this Court with two District Judges for the Eastern Dis
trict of North Carolina presiding, has been convened for
hearing of the cases consolidated for that purpose, the
case of Alvin Turner and others, Plaintiffs, against the
Warren County Board of Education, Defendants, and the
case of United States of America against the Halifax
County Board of Education and others, Defendants.
The Court will request counsel representing the sev
eral parties to present their respective evidence and a
concise statement of facts as they view it, and then coun
sel for the several defendants to present their evidence
with any statements of relevant facts as they respec
tively view them. After all the evidence is in, then the
Court will hear arguments of counsel as to the applicable
law.
The Court will recognize first the counsel for the
United States of America in the case of United States
of America against the Halifax County Board of Educa
tion and others.
* * * *
[22] MR. K EN N ED Y : Thank you, your Honor.
The evidence for the Government in The United States
of America v. The Halifax County Board of Education,
et al. will be submitted as follows:
With the Court’s permission we would like to offer
into evidence if and when available, or when available,
the depositions of the following named witnesses:
Dr. A. Craig Phillips, State Superintendent of Public
Instruction, State of North Carolina;
MR. W. Henry Overman, Superintendent of the Hali
fax County Board of Education;
Mr. Franklin P. Bailey, Superintendent of the [23]
Scotland Neck City School System;
Mr. Frank P. Shields, Chairman of the Scotland Neck
City Board of Education;
Mr. Henry L. Harrison, a citizen of Scotland Neck,
former member of the Halifax County Board of Educa
tion;
77
Mr. Macon L. Moore, Chairman of the Halifax County
Board of Education;
Mr. Aubry Powell, member of the Scotland Neck City
Board of Education; and
Mr. Ferd Harrison, Mayor of the Town of Scotland
Neck.
In addition, at this time we would like to offer into
evidence the Affidavit of Dr. J. L. Pearce, Director of
the Division of School Planning, North Carolina Depart
ment of Public Instruction.
* * * *
[24] MR. K EN N ED Y : I would like to present a
bound volume of exhibits, your Honor: Plaintiffs’ Ex
hibits Nos. 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17. There is a typed
index at the beginning of the document listing not only
the names and identities of the Exhibits 12 through 17,
but also the Exhibits Nos. 1 through 10, copies of which
have been attached as exhibits to the various depositions.
I make reference to them to keep the numerical sequence.
JUDGE BUTLER: You are offering, as I understand
it, Government Exhibits 12 through 17, inclusive, con
tained in the bound volume of exhibits?
MR. KENNEDY: Yes, sir. But Exhibits Nos. 1
through 10 are physically located attached to various
depositions, so that they can be located with the deposi
tions at which they were introduced.
JUDGE BUTLER: Then do I understand that Ex
hibits 1 through 10 have in effect been offered in evi
dence as attachments to various depositions?
MR. KENNEDY: Precisely.
* * * *
[26] I would like to have the clerk mark as Plaintiffs’
Exhibit No. 11 a document known as the Report of the
Governor’s Study Commission on the Public School Sys
tem of North Carolina.
The last Government Exhibit is No. 18 which is a
bound volume, your Honor. It contains thirty-one news
paper articles in the original, and I would offer them
merely for the proposition that these articles in fact
appeared in the newspapers designated and on the dates
78
indicated. We do not offer these exhibits for the truth
of the statements contained in the various newspaper
articles. I have already furnished Mr. Josey and Mr.
Crew copies, and I would ask— I have asked them if they
could see fit to agree that they are authentic copies of
the newspaper articles appearing on the dates and from
the papers indicated.
* * * *
[44] Q State your name and occupation, please, sir.
A W. Henry Overman, Superintendent of the Halifax
County Schools.
Q How long have you been superintendent?
A Of Halifax County schools?
Q Yes, sir.
A Twenty-two years.
Q Are you generally familiar with the records that
are kept under your supervision?
A Yes.
Q Would you please turn to the original copy of
Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 12, and can you identify that for
us, please?
A Yes.
Q Will you please tell the Court what that is, and
if that is a true and accurate copy of the original?
A Yes. This is a statement concerning students who
reside in other school systems who attend school in the
Halifax County school system, and it is accurate.
Q Does it also include a copy of a form submitted to
HEW in September 1967?
A Yes.
Q And are the figures therein accurate as of that
date?
A Yes.
[45] Q Will you please turn to Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No.
13. Can you identify that?
A Yes.
Q Will you please tell the Court what that is?
A That’s their report to the Department of HEW on
the school attendance in 1968, compiled October 4th.
79
Q Are there any corrections you would like to make
at this time to the first page of that exhibit?
A Yes. There was an inaccuracy in the totals at the
very bottom column. Instead of 110 in Column 1, it should
be 455. In Column 3 it should be 326.
BY JUDGE BUTLER:
Q 326. Is that the present figure or the corrected
figure?
A That is the corrected figure.
Q What is the present figure?
A The present figure in Column 1, vertical column,
8. Column 3, 4. And Column 6—
Q Just a minute. I’m not understanding that.
BY MR. KENNEDY:
Q Mr. Overman, let me see if we can get it. Is Col
umn 1 headed with the words “Total Minority and Non-
Minority Group, Fulltime Professional Instruction Staff” ?
A That’s correct.
Q Does the present number on the form read 110?
[46] A That’s the last horizontal column.
Q Should that in fact read 455?
A That’s correct.
Q And under Column 3, which is the total number of
the minority group, Negro fulltime professional staff,
does that read 76?
A It does.
Q And should it read 326?
A Correct.
Q And under Column 6, Total Minority Group, Full
time Professional Staff, it presently reads 76?
A Yes.
Q And should it read 326?
A 328.
Q 328. Thank you. Please turn to Plaintiffs’ Exhibit
No. 14.
BY JUDGE BUTLER:
Q Now, just a moment. Exhibit 13 is your report to
HEW of the school attendance for the year 1968-69; is
that correct?
80
A Yes, sir, ’68-69, the beginning of the school term.
Q With the correction that you have indicated, is it
otherwise correct?
A Yes.
[47] Q And is it authentic?
A Yes.
BY MR. KENNEDY:
Q Can you identify Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 14?
A Yes.
Q What is that, please?
A This is the form, Summary of Proposed Construc
tion Project, that was presented to the State Department
of Public Instruction, primarily for the use of State
building bond funds.
Q Is that a true and authentic copy, sir?
A Yes.
Q Would you please turn to Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No.
17. Can you identify that, please?
A I can identify it as to title and as to what it
consists of, but for the figures I cannot determine be
cause this is of the Weldon city administrative unit.
Q I’m sorry, sir. No. 17, the very last page in the
folder.
A Oh, yes, excuse me. I was reading 16. Yes, this
is a press release to the county newspapers, and it is
correct.
* * * *
[77] MR. JOSEPH W. TALLEY, called as a witness
by counsel for the Scotland Neck City Board of Educa
tion, having been duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:
DIRECT-EXAMINATION
BY MR. JOSEY:
Q Would vou give your name to the Court, please?
A J. W. Talley.
Q Mr. Talley, what is your occupation?
A Superintendent of Schools, Roanoke Rapids.
81
Q Is that in Halifax County?
A It is.
Q Mr. Talley, how long have you been Superintendent
of Schools of Roanoke Rapids?
A Since 1958.
Q Is that a city administrative unit?
A Yes.
[78] Q What was your position prior to the time you
became Superintendent of Schools in the Roanoke Rapids
city administrative unit?
A I was principal of the high school in the same unit.
Q How long were you principal of the high school in
that unit?
A About 12 or 13 years.
Q And prior to that what was your position?
A I was a teacher in that same unit.
Q And how long were you a teacher in that unit?
A Approximately 3 years.
Q You were also a coach?
A Yes.
. Q Now, had you taught school or had been a profes
sional educator prior to that time?
A No. All of my experience has been in the same
unit.
Q And where did you attend college, sir?
A Wake Forest and Duke University.
Q What degree, if any, did you get from either of
those institutions?
A A Bachelor’s at Wake Forest and a Master’s at
Duke.
Q And what high school? Did you go to public
schools?
[79] A Yes, I did.
Q What public school did you go to?
A Mebane High School in Alamance County.
MR. JOSEY: If your Honor please, I would like to
tender this witness at this time as an expert in the field
of public education.
MR. K EN N ED Y : We don’t have any objection to his
qualifications as a superintendent, but as to whether he
is an expert or not I have some reservations.
82
JUDGE BUTLER: You say in the field of public
education?
MR. JOSEY: Yes, sir.
JUDGE BUTLER: And not as a school administra
tor.
MR. JOSEY: In the field of public education.
MR. KENNEDY: I don’t know what expertise the
gentleman may have by way of study or writing, this
sort of thing, and I would like to lodge an objection for
the record.
JUDGE BUTLER: All right, we’ll hear from him.
BY MR. JOSEY:
Q How many students are in your unit, approxi
mately, Mr. Talley?
[80] A Approximately 2800.
Q And how many schools are there in your unit?
A There are 6, five elementary and one high school.
Q Now, Mr. Talley, were you also on a committee of
the Governor’s Study Commission that in fact produced
one of the plaintiffs’ exhibits, Plaintiff-Government’s Ex
hibit No. 11, the Report of the Governor’s Study Com
mission on the public school system of North Carolina?
A I was a member of one of the subcommittees, on
the Finance Committee.
Q Are you reasonably and generally familiar with
that Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 11, the Governor’s Study Report?
A Yes, I think I am.
Q I show you, Mr. Talley, what is marked for iden
tifications purposes the D efendan t Scotland N eck Board's
E x h ib it No. 1 which purports to be the Profile of Signifi
cant Factors in Education in North Carolina, a Ranking
of School Administrative Units, July, 1968, and ask you
if you are generally familiar with that document?
A Yes.
Q Do you know who publishes it?
A Yes.
Q Who does?
A The State Department of Public Instruction, the
Statistical Department, I believe, William Peek, Director.
83
[81] Q And do you know of your own knowledge that
for the last several years that the North Carolina De
partment of Public Instruction has put out such a docu
ment in order to rank and rate in certain categories each
and every public school administrative unit in the state?
MR. K EN N ED Y : Objection to leading.
JUDGE BUTLER: Objection overruled.
A I think that was the purpose of the publication.
It has come out several years and the content of it seems
to indicate this was its purpose.
MR. KENNEDY: Your Honor, I would like to strike
any—
JUDGE BUTLER: Well, yes. Unless he knows what
the purpose was, he could not testify. Objection sus
tained.
BY MR. JOSEY:
Q Mr. Talley, what, if anything, do you as a school
administrator use this hook for?
A I use it to see how the school unit that I work in
compares with the other school units in the state.
Q And in what categories of comparison do you— In
what categories do you compare your school with other
schools?
A The amount of financial support per pupil from
various sources; that is one category. Another is the
[82] number of graduates from the high school who enter
college or who go into fields of employment— this sort
of thing. Another is the number of pupils per teacher
in the various units. We are interested in seeing how
we compare. Most every aspect of the school system that
can be compared is shown in this publication I think.
Q In fact there are approximately 34 different tables
and analyses of all of the units set up in this Defend
ant’s Exhibit 1. Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, Mr. Talley, in what respects from a struc
tural standpoint, financial standpoint, is your city ad
ministrative unit different from the Halifax County ad
ministrative unit?
84
A In the financial support?
Q Financial.
A The Roanoke Rapids unit voted and levies a sup
plemental tax on the property in the district and uses
this to improve and to add to and supplement the other
sources of income.
Q And what is the amount of your supplemental tax?
A The rate is 50^ on the $100 valuation.
Q And approximately how much does this bring into
your budget each year?
A Between $220,000 and $250,000.
[83] Q Do you also get your per-student share of the
tax funds of Halifax County?
A Yes, we do.
Q And what are these funds that you receive from
your local tax supplement—what do you use those for?
A We use them for any purpose that the board might
determine they are needed for. But, chiefly, there are
two categories. We supplement every professional employ
ee’s salary, that is, we pay beyond what the state salary
schedule calls for. And then we supplement special cate
gories, special personnel, beyond the standard amount of
supplement. And then the third category is the number
of teachers employed beyond the state allotted number;
this takes a considerable amount of that money.
Q And what, if any, effect does this have on the stand
ard of education which your school maintains?
A I think possibly two effects. First, I believe that
we have a better chance, a better selective process, in
picking staff members. I believe we can get a little bet
ter choice because we pay a little more money than units
that do not offer supplemental salaries; and second, I be
lieve that our number of pupils per teacher is smaller
because of the extra number of teachers we employ that
we could not employ without this supplemental tax.
Q Now, in the category of local funds per student,
[84] where does your unit rank in the state, if you
know?
A I’m not sure I know. I believe it is within the top
ten.
85
Q Are there not approximately 160 units, that is ad
ministrative units, within the State of North Carolina?
A That’s right.
Q Do you know where Halifax County ranks in re
lationship to Roanoke Rapids— above it, below it, or
equal to it?
A Well, I think it’s below it.
BY JUDGE LARKINS:
Q Now, whose rating is this, Mr. Witness? Who
does the rating that puts you in the top ten?
A This rating is done by the Statistical department
of the State Department of Public Instruction. These
people take our financial reports, they compile them, they
provide this information, and they rank the units 1, 2,
3, on down the line.
BY MR. JOSEY:
Q Do you know where your unit ranks generally
relative to other units in the state, that is, the percentage
of high school graduates entering college?
A I don’t know that precisely.
Q Do you know whether it ranks higher or lower or
equal to that category for Halifax County school admin
istrative unit?
[85] A I believe higher.
Q Do you know where your unit ranks in relation
to other units in the state as to the pupil-teacher ratio?
A Not precisely. It ranks above the median right
much, but exactly where I’m not sure.
Q Do you know whether your unit ranks higher,
lower, or equal to the Halifax County unit?
A Again I think higher.
Q Do you know where your unit ranks in the cate
gory of library books per student?
A I give the same answer. I don’t know precisely,
but I think higher than Halifax County.
Q Now, Mr. Talley, isn’t it true that in each of these
categories of advantage in educational standards that
your unit ranks considerably higher than the units of
the Halifax County administrative unit?
86
JUDGE BUTLER: Are you referring now to all 31
categories?
MR. JOSEY: Yes, sir.
BY JUDGE BUTLER:
Q Do you know the answer to that?
A No, sir, I don’t.
MR. K EN N ED Y : I would like to lodge an objection
to counsel’s use of the word “standards.” I don’t know
whether we have established that [86] these are in fact
standards, if there are in fact standards.
BY MR. JOSEY:
Q Now, Mr. Talley, state whether or not any schools
in your administrative unit are in fact accredited by the
Southern Association of Colleges and Schools?
A Yes, sir. All of them are.
Q State whether or not there is a single school in the
Halifax County system that is in fact accredited by the
Southern Association of Colleges and Schools.
A I do not think there is.
Q What is this accreditation, what does it consist of,
Mr. Talley? Will you explain that to the Court?
A The Southern Association of Schools and Colleges
is the regional accrediting agency and they establish
standards for public schools, and the schools who aspire
to reach those standards join the association and work
toward meeting the standards that they prescribe; and
we think that this carries with it some prestige in terms
of college entrance and that sort of thing; and our unit
has been a member of the association for a very long
time.
BY JUDGE LARKINS:
Q Under what authority does the Southern Associa-
iton operate?
A I am not certain I can answer that, sir. It is
[87] the accepted accrediting agency for the South. There
is another one in the northeast and one in the central.
There are about four or five, I believe, in the nation.
87
BY MR. JOSEY:
Q As a professional educator and expert in the field
of public education, state whether or not public school
officials and professional educators consider this accredi
tation as some goal to obtain in raising the standards of
the schools?
A I believe that most of them do feel that this is a
desirable goal.
Q Now, Mr. Talley, state whether or not there is
competition among superintendents in this state and ad
jacent states for employment of teachers?
A Yes, there is.
Q What, if any, effect does having a supplemental
tax have on your ability as an administrator to obtain
competent teachers?
A It helps. To what extent I am not certain, but it
defenitely helps. The teacher wants to know first of all
usually, how much money will I make; and, secondly,
what are the fringe benefits; and, third, how little work
do I have to do.
Q At least in the category of funds, you have the
funds that the normal school unit, the average school
unit, [88] the Halifax County school unit that doesn’t
have a supplement, you have some funds with which to
deal with these people who want a little bit more money.
Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you have an opinion as to whether or not this
has enabled you to get better teachers than units that
do not have supplements?
A Yes, I think it does.
Q Do you have an opinion as to whether or not this
has enabled you to raise your educational standards for
all students?
A Yes, I think it does.
Q I believe you testified that you were generally fa
miliar with the Governor’s Commission Report which
the attorneys for the plaintiffs have introduced. I’ll ask
you if you in fact agree with the— Well, strike that.
I believe you testified that you are generally familiar
with the Governor’s Commission Report. I’ll ask you if
88
in fact— what is your understanding of the policy as set
forth in the Governor’s Commission Report concerning
elimination of small administrative school units in North
Carolina?
A Well, I think the theory and the philosophy
throughout the report suggests that small administrative
units— I believe the exact language is— “where feasible”
[89] should be merged with other small units to create
larger units. It makes a pretty good case of having
larger school administrative units than the one that I
work in, for example. But it does not say anywhere
that I know of that size alone is the criterion of a good
school, and it does not say that there are not some small
units that have good school systems.
Q Now, are you familiar at all with the finding of
the Governor’s Commission Report concerning the neces
sity for local control and local financial support? Are
you familiar with that generally, that phase of it?
A Quite a bit of the philosophy throughout the re
port calls for more involvement of the lay people, more
interest in the schools and, therefore, more support. I
think this is the theme that they have in mind.
Q Do you have an opinion, Mr. Talley, as to whether
or not the local citizens, at least in your area, would be
willing to financially support your school with the 50^
levy if in fact they did not have their own school board
and school administrative unit?
JUDGE BUTLER: Well, how could he know that?
MR. JO SEY: He has been there a long time. I think
he may have an opinion. I know he can’t know it, but
I believe he could have an opinion.
[90] BY JUDGE BUTLER:
Q As a matter of fact, you do have a special supple
mental levy, do you not?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know what the people would do if you
didn’t have that levy?
A No, sir. I never know what they would do.
JUDGE BUTLER: All right, I think that answers it.
89
BY MR. JOSEY:
Q Are you familiar with small school administrative
units who in fact do not have a special levy?
A I know of a few.
Q And how do they compare with either the large or
small units that do have a supplemental tax, in general?
A They don’t compare favorably at all. If they
haven’t got any extra money to operate on, they can do
very little in my opinion to have a good school system.
Q And what would be your opinion as to whether or
not that type of small administrative unit without a tax
should be consolidated with other units?
MR. K EN N ED Y : Objection. I don’t know what we
are talking about here— small units and large units. If
he would be a little more specific, I think it would shed
some light on it.
[91] JUDGE BUTLER: Objection sustained as to the
form of the question.
BY MR. JOSEY:
Q Do you have an opinion satisfactory to yourself
as to whether or not there are certain advantages to a
small administrative unit over certain large administra
tive units?
JUDGE BUTLER: I think you had better specify
what you mean by small and large. Give the number of
students or some other method so that he will know
what you are talking about.
BY MR. JOSEY:
Q _ Mr. Talley, do you know what the Governor’s Com
mission Report listed as the optimum minimum size of
an administrative unit?
A Roughly, yes. I couldn’t state precisely.
Q How many students?
A About 10,000 I believe as being optimum.
BY JUDGE BUTLER:
Q That’s the minimum?
A Optimum.
90
Q Minimum? Oh, the largest?
JUDGE BUTLER: You said optimum— what was
your question?
MR. JOSEY: I probably used the word “optimum”
and minimum, which I should not have used.
[92] BY MR. JOSEY:
Q You say that the optimum is 10,000; is that cor
rect?
A I think that is what the report says.
Q Do you recall whether or not there was a lower
figure used as more or less a minimum suggested size?
A I’m sorry, I do not.
Q Now, what do you consider to be a small adminis
trative unit on a state comparison?
A Well, a small administrative unit— I suppose you
would go to the average size and any below that would
be small and any above it would a large unit. I would
say that anything under 5 to 6 thousand would be con
sidered a small administrative unit in this state, but
some other opinion might have a different figure.
Q Now, isn’t it true that the—
JUDGE BUTLER: Now, don’t lead your witness and
put the words in his mouth. Just ask him the question
and let him answer it.
Q Now do you have an opinion as to whether or not
there are advantages of units that are considerably less
than 5,000 students as compared to some other units in
the state that are considerably over 5,000?
JUDGE BUTLER: Well, now, when you say con
siderably below and considerably above, that’s [93] very
indefinite. Would you state your figures so that the wit
ness might answer a definite question.
BY MR. JOSEY:
Q Do you have an opinion as to whether or not there
are certain advantages of a city administrative unit that
is under 2,000 with a supplemental tax over a unit of 10
to 11 thousand without a supplemental tax?
A Just on the factors you have mentioned, I think
there would be an advantage. There could be other fac-
91
tors, of course, that would take it in the opposite direc
tion.
Q Are you generally familiar with the general dis
persion and location of the schools in the Halifax County
administrative unit—general location?
A Yes, I think so.
Q Do you have an opinion as to whether or not a
unit in the Halifax County area with approximately
1,000 students with a supplemental tax of 50^ on the
$100 valuation would have certain educational advan
tages over what the Halifax County unit presently has?
Do you have an opinion as to whether they might or not?
A I definitely think that a unit of that many pupils
with a tax would have an advantage over the larger
unit with no tax.
Q What would be some of these advantages in your
[94] opinion?
A The employment of teachers, supplemental salaries
for teachers, supplementing the school budget in any
area that it might be short to the extent that the sup
plemental funds would do that.
Q Would that include broadening of curriculum?
A Yes, it could.
Q Does it in your unit?
A It does.
Q Would it include descreasing the number of pupils
that a teacher would have to teach?
A Yes.
Q What about the facilities? Would it have any ef
fect on the facilities?
A Insofar as the maintenance and repairs of the fa
cilities, it might. But so far as adding facilities, it would
not.
Q State what your supplemental funds can be used
for and are used for, under the law.
A Any item of current expense that the board deems
advisable to use the money for, as opposed to capital
outlay items. They cannot use it for that purpose.
* * * *
92
Q Mr. Talley, I believe that Mr. Kennedy asked you
to read certain sections of page 226 of the Governor’s
Commission Report on yesterday on cross-examination,
and you [116] said that you conditionally agreed with
the statement that: “Despite mergers and consolidations,
many small administrative units in the schools remain,
and their shortcomings are evident. Administrative costs
are higher. The smaller the school unit, the greater the
number of teachers and other employees that are neces
sary to provide a quality educational program for each
thousand pupils. Due to isolation or population sparsity,
some small administrative units may be necessary. Other
units could be consolidated without creating undue in
convenience or hazards for pupils.”
What did you mean by the conditions on which you
agreed with that statement?
A I think I was referring to the readiness of the
two units to merge. And by “readiness” I would mean
that consolidation within each unit had already pro
gressed significantly so that that job would not be to do
over again; and second, and possibly more important,
that both units were levying comparable tax rates so
that neither of the two units would have to lower stand
ards or lower opportunities for its students before a
merger of them would be feasible. This is my opinion
about that.
Q Are there in this state, units that are under—
school administrative units that are under 3,000 students
which do not levy a supplemental tax, to your knowledge?
A I think there are some, yes, sir.
# * * *
[135] MR. JOSEY: Mr. Randall, come around.
MR. HUGH RANDALL, called as a witness by coun
sel for the Scotland Neck City Board of Education, hav
ing been duly sworn, was examined and testified as fol
lows:
[115]
REDIRECT-EXAMINATION
BY MR. JOSEY:
93
Q Will you give the Court your name, please?
A Hugh Randall.
Q Mr. Randall, what is your occupation?
A Superintendent of the Hendersonville City Schools.
Q Hendersonville, North Carolina?
A Yes.
Q And, Mr. Randall, how long have you been super
intendent of that school?
A Fifteen years.
* * * *
[142] * * * Commission Report on the policy, that there
are advantages, certain educational advantages of large
units, but they would also say, to a man, that where a
large unit in numbers does not have sufficient funds,
does not have a supplemental tax to provide those funds;
and where in order to consolidate, great distances have
to be covered, there are many cases where the small
units would be far superior to the larger unit.
Mr. Martin, I believe, is also one of the original 17
members of the Governor’s Commission, and he would
testify that there are certainly numerous cases where
the overall policy would not be educationally sound to
consolidate the units and to eliminate a number of the
smaller units in this state which have sufficient funds to
operate. I believe all of them would testify that funds,
unfortunately, is the first item that must be obtained
in order to maintain a good education, and after that
the other factors can be obtained.
They would also all testify that one of the aims and
one of the findings and recommendations of the Gover
nor’s Commission Report was that more local participa
tion, more local financing, more local support be obtained
for our public schools in North Carolina.
I do hereby tender these witnesses for any cross-
examination by Mr. Kennedy.
DIRECT-EXAMINATION
BY MR. JOSEY:
* * * *
94
Q Mr. Dussenbury, you say you are familiar with
this Defendant’s Exhibit No. 1, Ranking of School Ad
ministrative Units in North Carolina?
A Yes, sir.
Q I ask you to turn to Table No. 5 and ask you as
to where your school ranks, Tryon City school ranks, in
the category of percentage of classroom teachers with
maximum experience for pay purposes?
MR. K EN N ED Y : May I make an objection and and
observation? The exhibit is in evidence, and we have
been over this before. If he has some factual evidence,
I think—
JUDGE BUTLER: Well, now, don’t we have exactly
the same situation as when you examined this witness
about the Governor’s Report?
MR. KENNEDY: If Mr. Josey will stipulate that
the other gentlemen will respond on cross-examination
the same way that Mr. Dussenbury and Mr. Randall
responded, then I won’t cross-examine any further.
[162] JUDGE BUTLER: Well, certainly what he is
about to testify to is in black and white and is available
to us to read, and I don’t see any necessity for it, but
I think since you took the time to cross-examine Dr.
Dussenbury, let him answer this one question. Let him
tell where Tryon ranks in all categories.
MR. JOSEY: Well, now, Judge, that will take a
long time. There are 36 categories. I don’t believe we
ought to do that. I think it would be nice, but—
JUDGE LARKINS: In all categories just tell us
where they rank— above or below average.
MR. JO SEY: If you will permit me to ask him a
leading question, I can suspend with him in two seconds,
if Mr. Kennedy and I—
JUDGE LARKINS: Well, ask the question.
[161]
REDIRECT-EXAMINATION
BY MR. JOSEY:
95
BY MR. JOSEY:
Q Isn’t it true, Mr. Dussenbury, that your school,
Tryon City school, in the category of percentage of class
room teachers with maximum experience for pay pur
poses ranks 14th in the state out of 160 units? That’s
in Table No. 5.
A In Table No. 5 we rank second in professional staff
—No, no, I was on page 5. Table 5.
Q Table 5, percentage of classroom teachers with
[163] maximum experience for pay purposes ranks 14th,
is that not true, in the state?
A This is correct.
Q Pupil-staff ratio, Table No. 14, is it not true you
rank 31st in the state out of 160-odd units in pupil-
staff ratio?
A This is true.
Q Is it not true in Table No. 15—
JUDGE LAKINS: Now, Mr. Josey, isn’t it true, or
it is true that the tables from which you are reading
are all correct. (To witness) Is there one that you
would question the figures in?
THE W ITNESS: To the best of my knowledge, they
are correct, sir.
JUDGE LARKINS: All right. We’ve got the book.
MR. JO SEY: Yes, sir. All right.
JUDGE LARKINS: Any questions from any of the
others?
MR. TAYLOR: I would like to ask him—
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. TAYLOR:
Q What is the population of the Town of Tryon?
A The Town of Tryon or Tryon Township?
Q The Town of Tryon.
[164] A Student population around 800 to 850. The
Town of Tryon itself is around 2200.
Q You draw your students, then, from outside the
town?
96
A The entire township, yes, sir. The town represents
a 1-mile radius from the center of town.
MR. CREW: I want to ask one question, the same
question of all four witnesses. I will address it to all of
them at the same time.
BY MR. CREW: (Cross-Examination)
Q I ask you if in your opinion as a school adminis
trator, if it’s not detrimental to the health, education,
and welfare of children that they be transferred during
the school year from class to class or from school to
school?
A I would think this would be detrimental, yes, sir.
Q I ask you if it is not administratively difficult if
not almost impossible to make drastic changes in your
plans for the school year within 3 or 4 days before the
opening day of school?
A It would create some difficulty, yes, sir.
* * * *
FERD L. HARRISON
Being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. BOURNE:
Q Would you state your name and address for the
record, please?
A My home address?
Q Yes, sir.
A Ferd L. Harrison, 1807 Fenner Street.
Q Mr. Harrison, do you hold any public office in
Scotland Neck?
A I have been Mayor since August of 1958 I believe.
Q Have you held public office prior to that in this
area?
A No, I have not.
Q Your first venture into politics?
A Right, first and only.
Q How much education do you have, sir?
97
A I have a B.B.A. degree from Wake Forest College.
Q Do you have children in school?
A Two.
Q Where are they in school, sir?
A They are in Scotland Neck School. One is in the
ninth grade and— one has just completed the ninth grade
and the other has completed the eleventh.
Q When did you first become aware of the movement
in the community to establish an independent school dis
trict for the Town of Scotland Neck?
A Oh, I’d say it was early January. My brother give
me a copy of the proposed bill with the information. He
thought the Town board should be aware of it since it
would involve them.
Q You were not aware of it before that time?
A No, nothing other than discussions over in the Idle
Hour that people would have about trying to improve
the education of our children.
Q When were these first discussions? Between Au
gust 1968 and this time in January that your brother
mentioned it to you when were these discussions? Do
you recall?
A I would say it was the latter part of December
possibly.
Q Were you aware of a trip that your brother took
to Tryon with Mr. Josey and Mr. Gregory?
A I knew they took a trip but what he went to— he’s
taken trips all the time, but I don’t inquire. He’s been
on the school board for fourteen years, and I’ve been in
city politics for eleven, and we kind of have an under
standing— I stay out of school board politics and he stays
out of city politics.
Q So you didn’t know the purpose of that, what it
was for, to Tryon?
A Nothing other than they were going to look at a
school.
Q The discussions which you had with people at Idle
Hour—-for the record, which I believe is a restaurant
here in Scotland Neck, is that correct?
A Right.
98
Q In those discussion did—what were the main areas
in which improvements were desired? I will be specific
in order to facilitate this and go through it faster. Do
you recall the—what problems there were with curricu
lum that people talked about?
A Well, I think that we have had, from the informa
tion as I listen to it, that your education was declining.
I saw that in my own children. And this is the major
interest that I had, was through my own children.
Q How was the curriculum declining, sir?
A How?
Q Yes, sir. Can you expand on what this decline was?
A Well, my—my children were—now about you ex
plaining what you want me to give you there a little
deeper.
Q Well, you said that you understood, I believe—
A Right.
Q — that there were inadequacies in the local school?
A Right.
Q Is that correct?
A Right.
Q And so, specifically, do you recall any specific in
adequacies that were mentioned with regard to the cur
riculum ordered at Scotland Neck High School?
A No, I don’t think it was in the curriculum. I think
it was more in— from the standpoint of teachers.
Q What was the weakness concerning teachers?
A Well, either they were not getting the subject across
to the students or they were having a problem getting
it across. Now what that was I don’t know.
Q Did anyone have any recommended solutions for
this?
A No.
Q Who were the persons you discussed this with?
A Well, I can— I can’t name you any particular peo
ple. It’s just the group of people that have coffee over
there about 8:30. The same ones there every morning.
If you come over there tomorrow morning, I will point
them out to you.
Q For the record could you tell me who some of
those people are who have coffee in the morning at 8:30?
99
A Occasionally Mr.— my brother, and Mr. Shields—
in there at 8:30. Mr. Josey is in there, 8:30 or 9 o’clock,
before he goes to the office. The Town Clerk is in there
some mornings before 8:30 or 9 o’clock.
Q What is his name?
A James Boyd.
Q Is that Junior or Senior?
A Junior.
Q Do you recall any of these people specifically talk
ing about the school?
A No, not specifically.
Q A nd. these conversations occurred approximately
what time, December of 1968?
A Oh, I would say so.
Q Do you recall any statements that the teachers
here in the Scotland Neck Schools were not certified to
teach?
A No, I don’t.
Q The subjects they were teaching?
A No, I don’t.
Q Do you recall any discussion to what their number
of degrees were?
A No.
Q I believe you stated that you were told by your
brother in January of 1969 that there was a—he showed
you a bill?
A A proposed bill.
Q And he indicated that there was a movement to
establish an independent school district for the Town of
Scotland Neck?
A Uh-hunh.
Q Is that correct?
A Right.
Q Did he mention at that time any specific areas of
improvement that that bill would bring about?
. A No- He just showed me the bill and let me read
it, and he said: I think that you as the Mayor and the
Town Board should be informed of this. I said: Okay.
We’re having a meeting this afternoon and I will give
it to them as a matter of information. And this was
all that was said about it.
100
Q Was this the first that the members of the Town
Board had heard of it, when you spoke to them about it?
A Yes.
Q Did any of them indicate to you officially or un
officially information as to this that they might have had
prior to it?
A No.
Q They might have had to it then or afterward?
A No.
Q None?
A No.
Q Did your brother indicate to you that any survey
by professional educators had been done of the needs of
the school, of the Scotland Neck School?
A No.
Q At any time since that meeting with him in Janu
ary of 1968 up until the time the bill was voted on here
in Scotland Neck did he indicate any results of any sur
veys by professional educators?
A No.
Q January 1969. Excuse me.
A No.
Q From January 1969 until the passage of the bill
here?
A Give me that question again if you-re changing
that date, if you will.
Q From January 1969, when you first heard of it
until the time the referendum was passed here in the
community creating the Scotland Neck School District,
did your brother mention any surveys of local needs and
areas of improvement done by professional educators
here in the community?
A No, not to me, other than what he had done; I
mean in the information that he had.
Q What-did anyone else mention any surveys to you
such as this?
A No.
Q During this period?
A No.
Q What information did your brother relay to you
as to the areas of improvement?
101
A You mean what the school system would mean?
Q Yes.
A Well, he just indicated— showed the plan for it
and he brought out the fact that— asked me what I— or
rather, he brought out the fact that this would be an
improved educational system, that we would have more
money to operate on if this thing was passed on by the
people of the Town, and that as such we could, of course,
hire better teachers and improve our education.
Q Did he indicate to you specifically how this money
would be spent in the future— this extra money?
A No. ,1 gathered just by my own guessing it would
be spent on teachers.
Q Did he indicate to you that there might be some
costs or administartive costs that this extra money—
some of this extra money might have to be used for?
A Well, I would assume that— when you say admin
istrative costs, you mean the superintendent I assume,
that some of that would have to go there, but he didn’t
indicate that.
Q He didn’t indicate that any money would go for
superintendent’s salary?
A No, because I never discussed that with him.
Q Office expenses, clerical expenses, bookkeeping, or
any of those expenses?
A No, he didn’t indicate any of that to me.
Q Did you get the idea that he had made a study as
to how much would go?
A No, I didn’t.
Q Did he or anyone else indicate to you— strike that.
During the period between January first, 1969, and the
passage of the bill did you have occasion to confer your
self, either alone or with others, with any professional
educator in the State of North Carolina concerning the
advisability—
A I did. On one occasion I went with the group
when they went to talk to Dr. Phillips. I was in that
group.
Q Was that in Raleigh?
A Right.
102
Q And what was Dr. Phillips’ opinion as you heard
it?
A His opinion was that— he took the stand that he
opposed this because it was inviolate— contrary to the
Governor’s Commission on Education.
Q Did he explain that the Governor’s Commission on
Education’s report— the document which I am showing
you right now— is in favor of merger between school
districts even across county lines?
A I don’t recall that, Mr. Bourne. I do recall that
he mentioned larger consolidated schools.
Q Were you aware in the fall or winter of 1968 and
’69 that a study had been done of Halifax County Schools
by the Department of Public Instruction?
A No, I wasn’t familiar with that.
Q I’m sorry. For clarification did you mean you
hadn’t read it or you just didn’t know that it had been—
existed?
A I knew a study was made of our schools, oh, way
back there because I had heard my brother say so, but
other than that I no nothing about it. I’ve never read
it, don’t know what it consisted of, or in what depart
ment.
Q You had no idea what recommendation, if any—
A No, sir.
Q — were made by it?
A No, sir.
Q I may have asked you this— what do you do for a
living aside from being Mayor? Is that a full-time job?
A No, this is part-time. I operate Ashford-Harrison,
Inc. It’s an appliance— Goodyear Tire dealership, and
I also have a dairy. I distribute or ship on the side,
operating the Scotland Neck Dairy.
Q Were you aware of the fact that in late July, ap
proximately July 27th, as a matter of fact, a letter was
written to the Board of Education of Halifax County by
the Department of Justice indicating that the Depart
ment of Justice had reason to believe the County school
systems were operated in a manner inconsistent with
federal desegregation law?
103
A If I did, I read it in the newspaper because I never
discussed it with anyone.
Q Between July 1968 and January first, 1969, did
you discuss school desegregation within Halifax County
with any person here in Town?
A No, sir. No, sir. That might sound mighty vague
to you, but that is a fact, because, like I said, I have
stayed out of the school. I’ve got enough headaches in
city politics.
Q Were you aware of the fact that there were— from
your children or from others— that there were Negro
pupils transferred to the Scotland Neck School from
Brawley School for the 1968-69 school year?
A Sure, I knew that.
Q Did you know that in the— that prior to that time
the only desegregation which occurred in Halifax County
Public Schools was on the basis of freedom of choice
plans?
A Right, I knew that.
Q Had you heard talk of any proposed merger of
Brawley and Scotland Neck High School into one school?
A Nothing other than the junior high over here, when
that was consummated.
Q But you knew of no proposal to consolidate the
other schools?
A No.
Q In September 1968 did you speak, along with some
other gentleman, at a P.T.A. meeting here in Scotland
Neck?
A Yes, I believe I did.
Q Concerning industrial development?
A Right.
Q And the need to preserve the public schools of the
community?
A Right, I did.
Q Was that meeting called and were you called to
that meeting immediately after it was publicly announced
that there would be the movement of the seventh and
eighth grade from Brawley?
A I don’t know about that. I don’t know about that
timing on that. I was just asked to appear on the pro
104
gram to speak on behalf of industrial development and
the effect of the public schools on industrial development
as I saw it, and this I did.
Q Did you have occasion during that speech to men
tion private schools?
A No, sir.
Q Are there any private schools operating in this
area?
A There is Enfield Academy.
Q Do you know when Enfield Academy was set up?
A No, I do not.
Q Do you know the race of the pupils who attend
there?
A I know that, yes.
Q What is it?
A White.
Q Did any persons here in the local community, after
the school bill was passed by the Legislature, and lead
ing up to the referendum, work in favor of the passage
of that referendum?
A I don’t know whether they did or not; I would
assume that some of that was done, sure, but I don’t
know that because nobody contacted me on it.
Q Do you know whether more people— do you know
how many people were registered to vote during the spe
cial registration period between April— well, leading up
to the April referendum?
A Would you give me that question again, please?
Q Do you know how many persons were registered
during the special registration period?
A Prior to the election?
Q Prior to the election.
A Of the school referendum?
Q Of the school referendum.
A The books were open prior to that, and a total of
657 registered. Of that, the breakdown by race, 344
white and 313 Negro.
Q How long did that registration period go on?
A Pm not sure. I think Mr. Boyd could give you
that, but I didn’t ask him that information.
105
Q As Mayor of the Town are you also a member of the
Board of Commissioners?
A Right. I am chairman of the Board of Commis
sioners. I conduct the meetings. I am not a voting
member however except in ease of ties.
Q I see. Do you know how many persons were reg
istered to vote here in Scotland Neck prior to the special
registration period?
A There was a total of 725 registered prior to that.
Of that breakdown, 678 we re white and 47 Negro.
Q Do you know how many persons were purged from
the voting list during that period, and their race?
A Right. There were 29 removed by challenge. Then
there were— there were 48 removed by the fact that they
were deceased or had moved out of our corporate limits
were no longer citizens. Of those 48, nine were Negro
and 39 white.
Q Of those challenged, do you know the race?
A No, I’m sorry, I do not.
Q But they were challenged, am I correct, at the polls
on the day of the referendum?
A No, they were challenged on challenge day. There
is a day set up at the end of registration as challenge
day when the books are open, and this is followed in keep
ing with the statutes of this State.
Q Is it customary here to have voters challenged in
local election?
A Yes, they have been challenged before.
Q Were you at the polls on the day of election?
A Yes. I voted.
Q Did you also stay there longer than was necessary
for you just to go up and vote?
A Probably five minutes. I stopped out at a tent to
talk with some people standing out there for a minute.
Q Were those people sitting around a card table?
A Yes. There were two groups. There was a group
of white citizens sitting at one card table and a group of
colored citizens at another.
Q I assume they were— is the tent you were referring
to the one where the white persons were sitting?
106
A Right.
Q Who were the persons?
A I can’t answer that. That’s how much impression
they made on me. I think that day the reporter took a
picture of it. You can get a picture from Mr. Rogers.
I think it’d show this.
Q Is— this is a clipping which purports to be from
the Scotland Neck COMMONWEALTH, April the 11th,
1969. Do you know the persons who are—
A This is my brother’s wife here.
Q Henry Lee Harrison?
A Right.
Q And who is the other one?
A This is Mr. Ennis Bryant here, and I don’t recog
nize this— is that— I don’t recognize that party. Of
course, I recognize him!
Q You say you don’t know who the other lady in the
picture is?
A I said this one is my brother’s wife, Mrs. Henry L.
Harrison, and I think that was Mrs. E. K. Veech, Jr.
I’m not sure of that, but that is who I think that is.
Q Is your picture also in that photograph?
A Well, if you can’t recognize that ugly thing, then
I’m sorry for you! That is I right there.
Q Do you know what these ladies were doing at the
polling place?
A Keeping a record of the people who voted—
Q Do you know—
A I would assume.
Q Do you know what the purpose of this record would
have been?
A To try to keep up with how many people were vot
ing, is the only purpose I could guess in it, and that
would be the same thing, would be true of the colored
citizens.
Q Would the goal there be to get those people out to
vote later in the day?
A Possibly so.
Q Do you know whether a car pool was operated later
that afternoon to get people to the polls?
107
A The only car pools that I saw operated were by the
colored.
Q Prior to election day did you see any literature
distributed in the Town of Scotland Neck in favor of
the passage of the referendum?
A No.
Q Do you know what the final results were in the
referendum, the precise numbers?
A We had a total vote of—let me explain this to you
off the record.
MR. BOURNE: Off the record.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
Q (Mr. Bourne) Do you know then what the official
tally for the vote was that day?
A The official vote that day was 1145 total votes. 14
spoiled ballots, 813 voted for the referendum and 332
voted against.
Q Of those do you know how many persons who voted
were white and how many who voted were Negro?
A No, I do not. I don’t have that figure.
Q Would that figure be available?
A You could—
Q Here in the city.
A You could get it by going through the— maybe the
registi ation books to see who voted and then break it
down from that perhaps.
Q On the day of the election how many persons, total
were registered and qualified to vote in the Town of
Scotland Neck?
A According to the record we have at the town hall,
after those people who were challenged were removed
and the deceased were removed, there were— it left a total
of 1305 registered to vote.
Q Of whom how many were white and how many were
Negro?
A That would be 678 and 344, less those removed; this
would be just a guess now because I don’t know’ how
many of those— of the 29 who were challenged— I don’t
know how many of those were of what race. 983 white,
108
341 Negro, other than the 29. Those 29 would have to
come off of those two figures to get you correct.
Q Other than the purged voters?
A The 29 who challenged.
Q And the purged, too?
A Well, I took those off the 48. They are taken off
of this figure.
Q Has the Board of Commissioners levied the fifty
cents tax bill permitted?
A Beg your pardon.
Q Has the Board of Commissioners of Scotland Neck
voted the fifty cents supplemental tax, the bill and the
referendum authorized?
A We have certified the election of the people of the
Town who— they voted the tax themselves, not the Town
Board. And we have billed out with our tax notices—
we are going to bill this in our billing because I think
it was set up in the bill itself— my understanding, and I
haven’t even read that, that the Town Collector would col
lect the tax and turn it over to the school board.
Q Has the Board of Commissioners levied the fifty
cents supplemental tax?
A I would say yes, yes, because our Town Tax Col
lector has been instructed to, as per the instructions of
the school board, to add this on and collect it for them.
Q When you first discussed the Scotland Neck Board
with your brother back in January— or was it December?
I’m not— in 1968?
A Well, I didn’t discuss it with him at any time. I
just— as I told you before, he gave me a copy of the
proposed bill and I read that bill totally to the Town
Board.
Q When you first discussed it did you know that it
was contemplated by those who were for the bill, who
were working for the bill, that students from outside
Scotland Neck would be permitted to attend the Scotland
Neck School on a tuition basis?
A Yes, because this is the law of the State of North
Carolina.
Q Did your brother make specific reference to that or
was there discussion with other persons, specific reference
to that?
109
A No, not with me.
Q Did you discuss that with your Board of Commis
sioners?
A No. As I stated before, I read the draft of the Act
to the Board, and I think if you will look in those min
utes, you will probably find that somewhere in there this
was given to the Board in substance as a matter of in
formation because it had not become law. It hadn’t even
been presented, I don’t believe, at that time to the Legis
lature.
Q Did you know about approximately how many stu
dents were contemplated for the school district?
A No, because I didn’t know at that time. I know
since then. But I don’t know how many children lived
inside the corporate limits of Scotland Neck.
Q When did you first learn that information?
A Sometime after the bill was introduced and it was
brought out in a hearing up at the Legislature.
Q How many persons do live in the Town of Scotland
Neck?
A I think it’s five hundred and some. Just how many,
I can’t tell you specifically.
Q It’s children of school age?
A Right.
Q Do you know how many persons it was contemplated
that would come in from outside on a tuition basis?
A No, I— it was projected. An estimate. No.
Q Do you know now?
A No. I could tell you approximately. I would have
to say, by subtraction, that I have heard it will be in
the vicinity of a thousand students, projected, in this
school, and if you take five hundred or so, or six hundred,
locally out, that will leave the balance to come from out
side. But as far as specific figures and the number of
children and their race, I can’t tell you, no.
Q Do you have an idea that the majority of those that
will go from outside will be white or Negro?
A I would say the majority would be white.
Q Do you have an idea of the range, would be eighty
percent white, ninety percent white, roughly?
110
A Oh, I would say probably sixty to seventy percent.
Q Sixty to seventy percent white coming into the
Town?
A Right.
Q Do you know what the percentage of—percentages
in this section of Halifax County who are white is out
side of the Town of Scotland Neck?
A About seventy-five percent colored in this area.
Q Say, east of Enfield and south of—
A I would say in our township area that the colored
race outnumbers the white probably three to one.
Q Within the Town of Scotland Neck do you have any
idea what the percentage of population is?
A No, I don’t.
Q White, I mean.
A I can tell you the approximate percentage of school
children in this thing. The figures that I have read from
the paper are three hundred— three hundred ninety or
three hundred eighty something white and two hundred
ninety-nine colored.
Q At the time the bill was introduced did you know
that the Scotland Neck junior high school facility was
located outside the city limits?
A Oh, yes.
Q Although it is just a stone’s throw from the city—-
A The border is on the corporate limits.
Q — from the street. At the time your brother talked
to you in January was any mention made of possibly
including the junior high school campus within the bor
ders of the district?
A No, not with me.
Q And you said that at that time you didn’t know
whether there would be a thousand pupils, or how many
pupils there would be in the school year?
A No.
Q But you did know that a tuition plan was contem
plated?
A Right.
Q From January till April 1969 did you hear your
brother, Mr. Henry Lee Harrison, make any statement
to the effect that an independent school for Scotland
Ill
Neck—strike all of that. Have you ever heard your
brother render an opinion as to the adequacy or inade
quacy of private schools?
A No, I haven’t.
Q Have you ever heard him make any statement in
dicating that the public school envisioned by this bill for
the Town was a better alternative than private schools?
A I don’t recall hearing him make any such statement.
Q Have you ever heard Mr. Josey make such a state
ment?
A No.
Q Mr. Gregory?
A No. What Gregory is that?
Q Thorne Gregory.
A Oh, no.
Q Mr. Frank Shields?
A No.
Q Do you know, or have you ever heard the term
‘pairing’ used with reference to public schools?
A I have heard the term, yes.
Q Do you have a general understanding of what it
means?
A No, not in the concept of education.
Q You don’t have a general idea?
A I do my own idea, but I don’t know whether it’s in
keeping with what this is all about or not.
Q Is your idea of pairing that pairing means that in
public education that you take a—take two schools which
are located relatively close together and take all the pupils
in those two schools in one set of grades— like grades
one through six— and put them in one school and all of
the other children in the other set of grades and put them
in the other school?
A Uh-unh, this would be my understanding of it.
Q Have you ever heard pairing discussed with ref
erence to schools in Scotland Neck?
A No.
Q Are you aware that pairing has occurred in neigh
boring counties?
A No, I am not.
Q Of Scotland Neck?
112
A No.
Q Or has been ordered by Federal Courts in neigh
boring counties?
A I have seen— read articles in the paper of proposed
pairing of schools in the South.
Q In the South?
A Right.
Q Are you aware that a pairing provision was in the
order of Bertie County?
A No, I wasn’t.
Q Do you know that Bertie County was involved in
school litigation?
A No.
Q Have you discussed the advisability of the private
school district with Mr. Josey?
A No.
Q Of the Scotland Neck school?
A Have I done what now?
Q Discussed the advisability of the separate school
district with Mr. Josey?
A No, I haven’t discussed it with him, other than when
this bill passed the Legislature.
Q Do you recall what he said at that time?
A No, I don’t.
Q I think you stated, did you not, that the ladies in
this photograph— Mrs. Harrison and the other lady whose
identity you are not absolutely sure of—
A It looks like Mrs. Veech.
Q Mrs. Veech. — were keeping some sort of record of
who voted and who did not?
A Right.
Q Do you know whether one of those ladies or some
other person still has that record?
A That I can’t answer. I don’t know.
Q Do you know any other persons who were working
with them, these two ladies?
A No. They are the only two that I saw there and
they are there in the picture.
Q Am I correct in understanding that the Town of
Scotland Neck has annexed some territory outside its— in
recent years?
113
A Right. It has.
Q Am I correct in understanding that in March 1968,
approximately, it annexed some property near the Braw-
ley School?
A No, I don’t know about the date. We annexed
some property over in the area adjoining Brawley School.
It’s a housing development.
Q Do you know approximately how many houses are
included in that?
A There are two homes in that now and—new homes.
Now I don’t know how many old residences; there were
one or two. There was a Superette business included and
also one other piece of property adjoining Brawley School
property which requested to come in.
Q Do you know the race of the persons who live in this
area?
A Negro. All Negro.
Q And the race of the people who live in the newer
homes?
A Negro.
Q Are there any other areas which in the last two or
three years have been annexed?
A There have been one or two over in the Negro area
who have been annexed in so that we could give them
water and sewage. I don’t know exactly how large it
was. It was a small parcel. For example, one parcel had
a corner of a lot which was out that he wanted to buy
and the other part was out and we took it in.
Q In the western section of the City has there been
any annexation?
A No, not in the last few years to my knowledge.
Q In the last five, or in your experience as Mayor have
there been any— eleven years?
A I don’t— I can’t recall whether there was a section
over beyond the— in the north end of Town. I’m not sure
when that came in, but I think it was annexed in the last
ten years. Maybe twelve.
Q How large an area is that?
A I would say, oh— excuse me.
MR. BOURNE: Off the record.
114
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
Q (Mr. Bourne) You believe there may have been
one in the last ten years?
A Perhaps one in the last ten years, and that would
be debatable because it could have been eleven or twelve,
approximately.
Q How many homes have been involved?
A In which section?
Q In the north end section?
A Oh, in the last— twenty or twenty-five have built
over there in the last ten years.
Q Are these rather new ranch-style homes near the
hospital?
A No, this is up on the northern end of Town.
Q Has there been any annexation in the northern end
of Town in recent years?
A No. I take that back. Excuse me. I believe we
did take in a section, a small section of land, that Mr.
House was developing, and this is some two or three—
maybe eight or ten new houses back over there behind the
hospital that has been taken in in the last three or four
years.
Q Was the property sold there to homeowners, occu
pied or to be occupied and owned primarily by white
persons?
A I don’t know about that. That would be a guess
on my part, to who he would sell it to.
Q The property already sold?
A The property already sold. Most of it was white,
all that. There was some Negro residences down the
street at the time it was bought or taken into Town. I’ll
say it that way.
Q Are there any present proposals to annex property?
A Not— if anybody comes in with—the owners of the
property come in with a request, I would say we would
annex any area that requested such.
Q Has it been any proposal brought before the Board
of Commissioners or before yourself by any person con
cerning annexation of the junior high school site?
A No.
115
Q Or property around it?
A No.
MR. BOURNE: I think you can go ahead.
EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEY:
Q Mr. Harrison, has it ever been any request by the
Halifax County Board or whoever— any request made of
the Town Commissioners since you have had anything to
do with it that you know of to have the Brawley School
annexed?
A No, there has not been.
Q Do you know of any area or citizens, Negro citizens,
who have made requests to have their property brought
into the city limits that have been denied that privilege?
A I know of none who have been denied. There was
one request made which was not completed, but the reason
was that we require that any realtor or any developer
who wants to be brought— have his area brought into
Town bring us a map with appropriate surveys, and
also have his streets shaped up in order for us to make
them over, and this is required, and Mr. Walter Clark
had an area over there—he discussed with one of the
members of the Board about bringing it in and we told
him we would be glad to take it in if he met these re
quirements and he never did because he died before he
ever finished.
Q Didn’t Mr. Walter Clark have some areas which
you people in fact, did bring some small areas in, in
fact you brought in previously?
A Yes, he did.
Q Which were Negro?
A Right.
Q This one particular one he didn’t quite complete
before he died?
A No. He didn’t never make up his mind whether
he was going to bring it in or not. He finally said he
thought he would, but he never did complete it, get the
maps and the street layouts, and so forth.
Q Is it your— in your opinion if any group of citizens
of Halifax County, whether they were Negro or white,
living adjacent to the corporate limits desired to come
116
into the corporate limits, is it your feeling that the Town
Commissioners would in fact agree to bring those into
the corporate limits and in fact extend the school limits,
so long as the tax was forthcoming from that group of
citizens?
A I think that they would be happy to bring them
in if they would request to come in regardless of what
group they might be, provided that they made the request.
Q Now, Mr. Harrison, I believe that the records show
that it was in along in the middle of June 1969 that the
suit was instituted against the Town of Scotland Neck
by the United States Government, the suit in which we
are now involved in, and at that time I ask you if in
fact Frank P. Shields was not a member of the Town
Commissioners?
A At that particular time that I was served with
my—with the summons Mr. Shields was not a member. I
don’t know the exact date, but the minutes reveal the date
that Mr. Shields resigned, and I believe it was somewhere
around the middle of June.
Q And had not been a member of that Board for ap
proximately two months?
A That’s right.
Q — at the time this suit was instituted, and he was
actually served as a party defendant?
A That’s right.
Q What is the name of the commissioner who was a
member of the Board of Town Commissioners at that
time but was not served and not named as a party?
A Mr. Andrews came on the Board prior to Mr.
Shields’ resignation to replace Mrs. Allsbrook who re
signed.
Q I believe Mr. Andrews was in fact named in the
suit—
A Right.
Q — and was served; it wasn’t D. E. Josey, Jr.?
A Pie was elected to the Board. When Mr. Shields
resigned, the Board took the position— I think the motion
was made that we not appoint a successor to him because
the election was coming up within two weeks, and we
felt that we would either put somebody on the spot and
that man would be under the gun, so to speak; and three
117
people filed for the race and we elected— the people
elected the man they wanted and Mr. Josey won that
position and he was, of course, sworn in.
Q Mr. D. E. Josey?
A D. E. Josey, Jr.
MR. JOSEY: I’m through.
* * * *
C. M. MOORE, JR.
Being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. BOURNE:
Q State your name and address for the record, please.
A My name is C. M. Moore, Jr., and I live in Little
ton, North Carolina, Halifax County.
Q What is your education, sir?
A I’m eleventh grade. High school.
Q Did you go to school here in Halifax County?
A No, I went in Warren County.
Q How long have you lived in Halifax County?
A Approximately fifty years.
Q Are you a member of the Board of Education of
Halifax County?
A Yes, I am.
Q How long have you been a member?
A Fifteen years.
Q That would be since 1954?
A Either ’54 or ’55. I’m not sure. Fourteen or fif
teen years.
Q How long have you been chairman of that Board?
A Approximately ten years.
Q Between 1954 and 1964, the 1963-64 school year,
what efforts did the Halifax County Board of Education
make to desegregate its public schools?
A Not any to my knowing.
Q When was— strike that. What date marks the be
ginning of desegreation of public schools in Halifax
County?
A Specific date?
Q Well, approximately what school year?
118
A Approximately 1965.
Q For the 1965-66 school year?
A Yeah, somewhere in there. I don’t have the record
with me and I can’t give a—
Q Until the 1968-69 school year is it true that the
only kind of desegregation which occurred was under
freedom of choice plans?
A Until the 1968-69? Yeah.
Q And isn’t that true that in August of 1968, ap
proximately a year ago, the Board of Education of Hali
fax County entered into an agreement with the Depart
ment of Justice by which the Board agreed to assign all
seventh and eighth grade pupils on a non-racial basis in
the County to formerly predominantly white schools, and
to enter into—to develop a plan for the 1969-70 school
year for total disestablishment of the dual system?
A Yes, it did.
Q Do you recall in the winter of 1968-69, last De
cember, January, the submission of a plan to the Depart
ment of Justice for desegregation for 1969-70?
A It was submitted, yes.
Q In the development of that plan were any other
plans considered?
A Several plans were considered, yes, sir.
Q Could you describe the alternative plans which were
considered?
A Without some records I couldn’t go into details,
but there were several suggestions on different— pairing
of different grades and transfer of different children, and
after hearing numerous groups of patrons of schools,
we come up with the plan that was submitted to Wash
ington, the Justice Department.
Q Was freedom of choice still an element of the plan
that you presented to the Department of Justice?
A When the plan was presented?
Q Yes.
A No, it wasn’t.
Q There was no freedom of choice in that plan?
A Oh, yes, there was some in the plan, yes, sure. I
thought you meant did we consider freedom of choice
when we considered the plan that was submitted to
119
Washington. We did not consider at that time a com
plete freedom of choice all over the County.
Q But there was some freedom of choice?
A Yes.
Q Did you consider— strike that. Are you familiar
with the School Survey of Halifax County written by the
Division of School Planning of the North Carolina De
partment of Public Instruction?
A Yes. We’ve had two or more and I’m familiar
with—
Q Are you familiar with the one that was published
in late 1968?
A I think so.
Q This?
A Yes.
Q Are you familiar with the interim plan which was
developed?
A I’d have to review that to refresh myself with it.
Q Do you recognize this document as the School Sur
vey, a copy thereof, Plaintiff’s Exhibit 2?
A Yeah.
Q And on pages 15 and 16 and 17 do you see the
interim plan as it was developed?
A Yes, I do. Yes, this plan was considered.
Q Does this plan not divide the Halifax County Ad
ministrative Unit as then constituted into four districts
and provide for consolidated high schools in each of those
districts and elementary schools in each of those districts
feeding each of those high schools?
A Yes, I would say so.
Q In considering this plan, isn’t it true that the
Board had developed by the superintendent’s office facts
as to the race of pupils who would be attending each of
these schools, approximately, if this plan were imple
mented?
A I think so, yes, sir.
Q Are these figures, this sheet of paper which I’m
now showing you, which is marked Plaintiff’s Exhibit
# 5 , these are the figures that you saw which indicated
the enrollment and— enrollment by race of the pupils who
would be attending those schools?
120
. A Now you refer to the four, to the schools that were
listed in this plan?
Q Yes, sir.
A This shows the number of children that would be
attending these schools. Whether this is in line with the
proposed plan you have over there I’m not— I don’t know,
unless I could have them both and make myself familiar
with them.
Q Have you ever seen a document such as this?
A Yes.
Q Is this the document which you are referring to?
A Yes, sir.
MR. JOSEY: Let me see that.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
Q (Mr. Bourne) Back on the record. Do you recall
why the State plan which would have provided for four
consolidated schools in the County, the interim plan, why
this was not adopted when you presented your plan to
the Justice Department and why another plan was
adopted in its place?
A The only thing I remember would be that some of
the Board members felt that this was not the ideal plan
and that the consolidation of two— one or two high
schools would be the ideal plan, and of course at that
time money was not available to do this.
Q In other words, are you saying that they preferred
the long-range plan, with some variation of the long-range
plan, to this interim plan?
A Yes, I am.
Q But for the short range, of course, the long-range
plan could not have been implemented in the 1969-70
school year, could it?
A No.
Q Construction would have been impossible, or virtu
ally impossible?
A Yes. For your information, one has already been
started and, of course, we couldn’t begin to get it ready
by the 1969-70 school year.
Q So the short-range plan could have been adopted for
the 1969-70 school year as opposed to the plan which you
121
presented to us which also did not involve major capital
expenditures, is that correct?
A It could have, yes,
Q As between those do you recall why this State plan
was not adopted, as opposed to the plan you submitted
to the Justice Department?
A The reason I would say would be because we had
a delegation preferring the plan that we submitted—
delegates and patrons, both black and white, that pre
ferred the plan we submitted.
Q Do you recall the members of the black delegations
which specifically preferred the plan that you presented
to the State plan which was developed by the Department
of Public Instruction?
A I don’t remember them by name. They were repre
sentatives from Scotland Neck, and some from Littleton,
and some from Weldon, and I might add they were not
in agreement among themselves, but the majority was in
favor of this plan as—
Q As opposed to the State plan?
A Yeah. Of course, if you will allow me to say this:
in agreeing to this plan we took into consideration dele
gations that we had had before the final meeting to adopt
this plan. We had a group of Negro patrons from the
Eastman School and they said that they did not intend
sending their children to a white school, that they were
perfectly satisfied where they were and they wanted to
keep their school in the community, and we had—
Q Were they referring to— excuse me.
A And we had a delegation from the Mclver School
in Littleton, which is an all Negro school, that was so
large we had to go to a different building to hold the
meeting. We had to go to the agriculture building. And
they were dissatisfied because we were moving the seventh
and eighth from Mclver School to a white school, and we
told them we had to do it in order to comply with the
Justice Department requirement.
Q Were these groups apprised of the fact that every
school within the district under the interim plan, except
one, would have been a majority black school?
A Yes, I’m sure they were, both through conversation
we had in the meetings and also through the press.
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Q What were the dates of these meetings that you
had?
A I do not know.
Q These were in December and January?
A I do not know. The minutes would show what dates
they were.
Q The minutes of the County Board?
A Yes.
Q These were official school board meetings, is that
correct?
A The one with the patrons from Littleton, Mclver
District School— school, were—was a regular meeting.
Now I don’t know— I believe the Scotland Neck delega
tion met with us in a night meeting, which would not
be a regular meeting. It was a call meeting for that
purpose.
Q Wasn’t that in September 1968, the meeting at
which the Mayor spoke on industrial development?
A No. I wasn’t at that meeting I don’t think.
Q And these were meetings specifically called to de
termine what sort of plan would be developed for 1969-
70 or for 1968-69?
A ’68—well, I’m not sure. I’m not sure. I believe
they were for 1969-70. But, now, the meeting with the
Mclver group— I’d like to clear myself—was in protest to
our moving the sixth and seventh grades to Aurelian
Springs.
Q So that concerned the 1968-69?
A 1968-69.
Q And was before this State plan was even com
pleted?
A Yes.
Q Did you consult with Reverend Deloatch?
A No.
Q Did you consult with Dr. Salter Cochran?
A No.
Q Or with his group, members of his group?
A He was in the meeting, but we just heard him
make a statement.
Q Was he opposed to the implementation of the State
plan?
123
A Not to my knowing.
Q But the others there were, you say, the other Ne
groes there were?
A They were not opposed to it, but they agreed to
this plan. The Scotland Neck group, the representative
that talked to me after— at the end of the meeting, I
don’t know his name—but I understand he was from
Scotland Neck—he said that he felt like we were doing
—making the best plan we could make, and I told him
then, I said, “If you come up with any opposition to it,
let me know.”
Q Have you ever discussed this with a man named
Forgan Berry?
A Where is he from? . . . No.
Q Do you remember generally endorsing— strike that.
Do you have any reason to question the educational ex
pertise of the people who wrote the School Survey for
Halifax County?
A No. You’re speaking of the State people?
Q Right.
A No.
Q Have you met with some of those people?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall the names of those persons?
A Dr. Pearce.
Q Dr. Pearce?
A Yes.
Q Do you accept their view that larger high schools
than presently exist in Halifax County, high schools
which would be consolidated and which would offer more
course offerings than presently are available in high
schools in Halifax County, do you presently accept that
view by them, that is, that is educationally desirable?
A In most cases, yes. There may be some exceptions
but in most cases, yes.
Q Now the long term plan that they developed, I be
lieve they recommended two consolidated high schools for
the whole county administrative unit, one in the south
eastern part of the county and the other in the north
western part of the county, is that not correct?
A That’s correct.
124
Q And I believe you have already stated that the
county has begun to move toward developing one of those
schools in the northwestern part of the county?
A Yes.
Q Do you know how many course oiferings that school
will have?
A No, I don’t. That has not been determined.
Q Do you know, generally, that because of its larger
size than the present high schools, that it will probably
have more course oiferings and more comprehensive pro
grams than of those that exist?
A That is one of the reasons that we have undertaken
it, because it was stated in the plan.
Q When did you first hear or get word of the de
velopment of the Scotland Neck School System before
the bill was introduced into the Legislature?
A When it was published in the papers, local papers.
Q Well, that would have been about January 1969,
shortly before the bill was introduced, is that correct?
A I don’t remember. Along about that time. I don’t
remember the exact date.
Q Were you aware that prior to that time citizens
from Scotland Neck, including Mr. Josey and Mr. Harri
son, had—were interested in developing a new—
A I knew nothing about it. See, I live seventy-five
miles from here, approximately. I might add this: it
was not discussed in any Halifax County Board meeting.
Nothing was brought up in a Board meeting about it.
We knew nothing about it.
Q Had you heard talk unofficially about it?
A No, I hadn’t.
q Was— the first you heard of it was in January of
1969 or thereabouts?
A Yes.
Q Do you know any Negro citizens from this area of
the County who are in favor or were in favor of the cre
ation of the Scotland Neck School System as a separate
school system?
A No, I don’t. I couldn’t call the name of a Negro
in Scotland Neck. I know some by face, because they
met with the Board, but by name I do not know them.
125
Q Do you know any citizens in the County, Negro
citizens in the County, who were opposed to the Scotland
Neck—
A No.
Q — School System?
A No, I don’t.
Q Now in— strike that. When the bill was first aired,
when Thorne Gregory, representative from this area,
announced that he was going to introduce the bill in the
Legislature and it first hit the newspapers, do you recall
being interviewed by any newsmen concerning your views
of the Scotland Neck System?
A Yes. I was called on the telephone.
Q Do you recall who called you?
A I can’t.
Q What newspaper he represented?
A I don’t remember his name. I cannot give you his
name.
Q Could it have been Marshall Lancaster?
A It could have been. I don’t remember his name.
Q Do you recall expressing any views as to the advis
ability of the system here, the separate system here?
A Yes, I remember making a statement about it.
Q Isn’t it true that you said you believed it would
be a good thing for the people of Scotland Neck to have
a separate system?
A Because of upgrading their school.
Q Isn’t it true that you said that'—that you explained
to the reporter who interviewed you that Negro students
outnumber whites in the County by four to one and that
in Scotland Neck you believed at that time that Negroes
only constituted about eighteen percent of the school popu
lation?
A Yes, I remember making that statement.
Q Isn’t it true that you said that by leaving the Hali
fax County System Scotland Neck could insure that the
ratio of Negro to white pupils would remain compara
tively low, and by ‘comparatively’ I think you meant—
MR. CREW: Object to what you think.
A I don’t remember making that statement.
MR. JOSEY: Off the record.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
126
Q (Mr. Bourne) But you do recall making a state
ment about the projected school population for Scotland
Neck would be eighteen percent Negro and the projected
—your view of the population of the County was about
four to one black?
A I remember making the statement, but later find
ing out that the percentage— eighteen percent was wrong.
That it was a higher percent than that.
Q Do you recall when you found that out?
A When I attended the next Board meeting and asked
the question.
Q So that was several weeks later?
A Yes.
Q If you want to tell me what the number, percent
age, that you learned was—
A I don’t remember the percentage. Some— maybe
forty percent.
Q But you’re not sure?
A I’m not sure.
Q Just higher than eighteen?
A I’d have to get my records.
Q Isn’t it true that you stated to this reporter that,
to this reporter, that the independent school system for
the Town of Scotland Neck was a better alternative to
private schools for white students, which had been estab
lished in eastern North Carolina the last several years?
A Would you state that question again?
Q Would be a better alternative to private schools
such as have been created in eastern North Carolina over
the past several years?
A I don’t remember making that statement, but I do
think it would be a better—
Q Do you recall telling him that we are losing white
children every day who apply for private schools. I’m
sure that next year we may lose a tremendous number?
A Yes, I remember making that statement,
Q And do you recall stating that the people in Scot
land Neck who you had talked to, whose attitude you
were aware of, did not think that the private schools
were the answer to the educational problems of their
children and they wanted— and for that reason they
wanted this system?
127
A Yes.
Q Who are these people that you talked to in Scot
land Neck?
A Those that attended our meeting that was held
prior to this— submitting this plan to the Justice Depart
ment.
Q Did that include—
A Some by name, was Mr. Josey and Mr. Harrison,
and—
Q Mr. Henry Lee Harrison?
A Yes.
Q And—
A Well, some others in this section. Mr. Leggett.
And I believe that’s all I remember by name.
Q Was Mr. Frank Shields in that group?
A I did not know Mr. Frank Shields at that time.
Q Do you recall now whether he was a member?
A No, I don’t recall now whether he was in that
meeting or not.
Q Was Mr. Bob Winfield in that group?
A I don’t know him.
Q Was the Mayor of Scotland Neck in that group?
A I do not know the Mayor of Scotland Neck.
Q And you recall these people telling you—
A In general conversation.
Q This was at the meeting, at the school board meet
ing?
A No, it was after the meeting, in general conversa
tion.
Q Mr. Moore, do you know the approximate number
of pupils, white and Negro, who attended schools last
year in the Halifax County Administrative Unit?
A Approximately ten thousand.
Q Total, and do you know the approximate racial
breakdown— I think you said it was about three and a
half to four to one—four to one I think you said—black?
A I said that would be my guess for Scotland Neck,
but in the County I think it runs seven to three. Some
thing like that.
Q Would you argue with the figure 78 percent Negro?
A No. I think Mr. Overman’s record would show
that. I’m just not familiar with the figures.
128
Q If it were 78 percent Negro or almost 80 percent
black, then that would mean that out of ten thousand
students there are approximately two thousand white
persons and approximately eight thousand— a little under
that—black persons attending school in the County?
A Well—
Q Is that not correct?
A Well, there are some few Indians which would have
to be accounted for, but other than that, that— it would
be that approximate figure.
Q Would you look at a form which I’m showing you
which purports to be under the signature of W. Henry
Overman, dated October 4, 1968, and the precise total
number of pupils is 10,655, and of them 102 are Ameri
can Indians, and almost 76 are non-white, and 8196 are
Negro?
A Yes.
Q Which would leave approximately 2300 white stu
dents in the system?
A Yes.
Q Are you aware of the number of pupils who will be
attending the Scotland Neck School next year?
A No, I’m not.
Q In general—you are not even in general?
A No.
Q Apprised of the figure?
A I don’t think we’ve been presented with those fig
ures yet. I don’t remember being presented with them.
They will come up at a later meeting. I may say this: I
have heard some guessing of eight through— all the way
from three hundred to eight hundred.
Q Is that the total enrollment or people transferring
in the County?
A I don’t know that— I’ve heard it would be 375 and
I’ve heard it will be eight hundred or nine hundred. I
just don’t know. I have not been presented with those
figures.
Q Would you argue with the figure approximately a
thousand pupils will be attending the school here as did
last year?
129
MR. CREW: We would object to assuming that. He
has said he doesn’t know, so I don’t think he would argue
with any figure.
Q (Mr. Bourne) Do you know whether a majority
of the students or pupils in the Scotland Neck system
will be white or Negro?
A I do not know.
Q Do you know of any agreements which have been
reached between the County School Board and the Scot
land Neck School Board concerning transfer of pupils
from one system to another?
A No. I don’t believe we made any agreement, not
to my knowing we haven’t, with the Scotland Neck School
Board.
Q No agreement has been made?
A Not to transfer students.
Q I’m just trying to refresh your memory now. Do
you know of any agreement concerning allowing pupils
living within the Scotland Neck—but who attended
Brawley School last year, and who would be going into
the eleventh and twelfth grade, any agreement which
would permit them to continue to go to Brawley?
A It is my understanding that the Scotland Neck
Board has agreed to permit them to go and under our
freedom of choice plan, why, they would be allowed to
go to Brawley.
Q So that there has been some that will be permitted
next year, so far as you know?
A So far as I know, that would be permitted next
year.
Q Will any of those students be charged tuition to
go to Brawley School?
A No.
Q Have there been any joint meetings of the Town
Board and the County Board of Education to work out
problems of changing from one system to the other?
A There have been two I believe.
Q What were the purposes of those meetings and what
were they—
A One was a meeting of representatives from both
boards in Raleigh with the State School Board, getting
130
information on how to transfer different school business,
and so forth. And then the other meeting was— in my
opinion was just to inform the Scotland Neck School
Board what we knew about the operation of schools. It
was just a general discussion. I don’t think any agree
ment was reached on any specific thing.
Q Has the County Board agreed to lease the junior
high school campus right on the edge of Scotland Neck
to the Town of Scotland Neck School Board?
A Yes. That was done in our June meeting I be
lieve.
Q That was your own meeting, not a joint meeting?
A No, it wasn’t.
Q And isn’t there some money involved in that trans
action— one dollar for one year?
A Yes. Very similar to the school we lease from the
Roanoke Rapids City Unit.
Q Before this agreement was—was finalized from the
point of view of the County Board, how long before that
was it that you first realized as a member of the County
Board that the Town of Scotland Neck, local board here
in Scotland Neck, would be trying to lease that property
or would be in need of that property?
A Well, I think that was discussed in our first full
board—joint board meeting, whether they would need
that property or not. I think it was discussed then,
which was probably at our April or May meeting.
Q The first one after the school district was set up?
A Yeah.
Q What instructions did the Board give to Mr. Over
man regarding the working out of any sort of agree
ment between the Board and the Town regarding this
property?
A That— that it be leased to them for one dollar a
year and the lease agreement to be very similar to the
one we have with the Roanoke Rapids City Unit on the
Chaloner School.
Q If the Board didn’t know how many pupils were
going to be— going into Scotland Neck, how was it de
termined that the County Board would not need that
property for the operation of the County schools?
131
A Well, the Scotland Neck children used those build
ings last year and we assumed they would need them
this year.
Q Isn’t it true that a number of pupils who attended
Scotland Neck School last year did not live in Scotland
Neck?
A I’m sure it was. I don’t know the number.
Q So is it fair to say that you simply assumed that
had there been need for it here last year that there
would be next year?
A Yes.
Q You did not really look into the number of pupils
in the County?
A Well, the number of pupils in the County will not
be known until they enroll for next year, and this was
all on the assumption that it would be needed here, and
was generally agreed with the Board that should Scot
land Neck not need the buildings and the County need
them, they would terminate the lease.
MR. BOURNE: I believe that’s all.
EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEY:
Q Mr. Moore, now isn’t it true that that decision on
whether the junior high building was going to be leased
to Scotland Neck or whether it was not was deferred
until that— those freedom of choice forms came back in,
and it was not until after it was determined by Mr.
Overman and Mr. Currin as to how many children basi
cally had at least chosen to go to Scotland Neck before
the Board of Halifax County definitely agreed to and
did in fact execute the lease? Wasn’t that— isn’t that
basically what happened?
A Yes, that is true.
Q That some discussion took place at the early meet
ing but the Board of Halifax County said that they
would not do anything about that school building, offi
cially at least, until the freedom of choice forms came
back and they had at least some indication of where the
students were going to be or at least where they chose
to be under the Halifax County School freedom of choice,
132
at least that gave some pretty fairly concrete informa
tion to Mr. Overman and the Board to determine whether
or not Halifax County Board was going to need that
building— isn’t that basically what happened?
A Yes, that is true.
Q Now in regards to—let me show you this article
from which— dated January 20, 1969, Raleigh NEWS
AND OBSERVER, January 20, 1969, under the staff
right of Marshall Lancaster, headlines, “Scotland Neck
Considers Separate School System,” and ask you to please
read that.
A At the beginning of the record—
Q I don’t mean read it out loud. Read it to yourself
if you will. . . . Now, this— this is a newspaper article
which is in the files of Mr. Bourne and Mr. Kennedy,
the United States Justice Department representatives
at this deposition, and what—where were you when you
were interviewed by this paper?
A I was at my home.
Q And was this a telephone interview by Mr. Lan
caster?
A Yes, it was.
Q And is there anywhere in there that he quotes you
as saying—the statement that Mr. Bourne asked you
about, the fact that Scotland Neck could insure that the
ratio of Negro to white pupils would be—remain rela
tively low by withdrawing from the County? Now that
is not a direct quote from you, is it, according to that
newspaper article? He doesn’t have that in quotation
marks like he does a number of other quotes from you,
does he?
A No, he doesn’t.
Q Neither does he have— of the statement that Mr.
Bourne asked you about, this is an alternative for pri
vate—to private schools in quotation marks from you,
does he?
A No, he doesn’t.
Q But he does have a number of other things that
are actually quoted from your interview, isn’t that cor
rect?
A Yes, it is.
133
Q Do you have any idea how much time you talked
to him on the phone?
A Approximately five minutes.
Q Did you know he was going to call you when he
asked you— to ask you about the percentage of students
and that sort of thing; did you have any opportunity to
prepare for any— to obtain any sort of figures at the
time—
A No, I didn’t.
Q Now, Mr. Moore, Mr. Bourne asked you if the
only desegregation prior to 1968 was under freedom of
choice, and I believe you said it was up until the Fall of
1968, is that correct?
A The best I can remember it was.
Q And hadn’t there been some integration of faculty
due to assignment by the Board, other than freedom of
choice, in that category prior to the Fall of 1968?
A Yes, it had.
Q And as far as you and the Board were concerned,
up until May of 1968 freedom of choice was the law of
the land, up until the Supreme Court in May of 1968
said differently, isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q And as far as you and the Board were concerned,
up until that point you were complying with the laws of
the United States of America and the constitution of
North Carolina, and the laws of North Carolina to the
best of your ability, isn’t that correct?
A Yes, we were.
Q Now, Mr. Moore, isn’t it true that immediately
after the decision of the Supreme Court in the Kent—
in GREEN v. KENT COUNTY, VIRGINIA, case, was
handed down in May of 1968, and I believe at the June
meeting of 1968, if in fact the Board of Education of
Halifax County at that meeting, and before any com
plaint was lodged as being in violation of the Civil
Rights Act of 1964, the Halifax County School Board
requested of the State school officials to conduct a survey
in order to come up with a plan, a State recommended
plan for the whole school system of Halifax County—
isn’t that your recollection?
134
A That’s true.
Q Now, isn’t it true, Mr. Moore, that in general Scot
land Neck Schools, that is, schools in the Scotland Neck
town limits, have for one reason or another in the past
seven— eight, ten, fifteen years, even— or certainly since
you’be been on the Board, received somewhat less, may
be, of their— of a per capita or per student share of
the various funds to build new buildings and to provide
new facilities, somewhat less for one reason or another?
A For capital outlay purposes, yes.
Q Mr. Moore, do you recall— do you recall sometime
in 1965, early part of 1965, that the Scotland Neck—
that the leaders, representatives, of the Scotland Neck
area, made a substantial effort to have a separate school
system set up and in fact— in the Scotland Neck area—
and in fact presented a bill through Mr. Thorne Gregory
in the Legislature for a separate school system consist
ing of several townships— do you recall that?
A That was in 1965?
Q That’s right. 1964 or ’65.
A I don’t recall that.
Q You don’t recall any—
A I vaguely remember something about it, but I
couldn’t— I’m afraid I couldn’t explain it.
Q Do you recall a meeting being called in about June
of 1965 by Senator Allsbrook in Halifax to a— a public
meeting to discuss the pros and cons of that separate
school unit bill? If you remember. If you don’t—
A I don’t believe I remember that. I was just try
ing to refresh my memory, but I don’t remember.
Q All right, sir. Now, Mr. Moore, do you remember
in the Spring of 1966 you and Mr. Overman, Mr. Har
rison and possibly others, going to Raleigh and talking
with the office— the people in the office of the State—
State Superintendent of Schools, and particularly the
office of school planning, State school planning, Dr.
Pearce, about a plan of new construction for certain
schools, buildings, throughout the County, and particu
larly a— which included a consolidated integrated high
school for the Scotland Neck area?
135
A Yes, I remember that very well. We had a con
ference with Dr. Pearce and his staff.
Q And to the best of your recollection one of the
phases of that proposed construction plan was to have
a—a new high school building built in the immediate
Scotland Neck area which would be an integrated— inte
grated high school, wouldn’t it?
A The best I can remember the plan was that we
would build a high school, a complete new high school,
in the Scotland Neck area for integration, to include in
tegrating the black and white students of this section.
Q And at that time isn’t it also your recollection that
as far as you were concerned Mr. Harrison, Henry Lee
Harrison, who is the only member who lived in the im
mediate Scotland Neck area, or the Board of Education
of Halifax County was in agreement with that and as
far as you know the people in Scotland Neck were—
would accept that and were willing to move along with
that program as far as—
A Yes. That information had been brought to us in
a Board meeting, and on several different occasions.
Q Do you remember why— why that plan was never
carried out?
A It was not approved by the State planning board.
Q Mr. Moore, wouldn’t you say that it is a fair state
ment to make that from your association with Mr. Har
rison on— Mr. Henry L. Harrison— on the Halifax County
Board of Education for the past ten or twelve years,
that he and the people of Scotland Neck have been as
flexible and susceptible to changing conditions and rea
sonably willing to accept change and to implement poli
cies of the H.E.W. and the laws of the— the changing
laws, changing school laws, as any section in the County?
A Yes, I would.
Q And wouldn’t you say it is a fair statement to
make that Mr. Harrison in the entire time he has been
on the Board has been— that he has been one of the lead
ers on the Board in trying to move forward and improve
education, not only for the Scotland Neck area, but for
the entire Halifax County?
136
A Yes, I would. He’s been very active in that ca
pacity.
Q And certainly the people of Scotland Neck and
their representatives, representatives on the Board of
Halifax County who lived in that area, have certainly
not been ones to drag their feet on moving forward in
education, have they?
A No, they haven’t.
Q Now I believe you mentioned some conversation
that you had— might have had with myself and Mr. Har
rison after— after some board meeting, Halifax County
School Board meeting. Hadn’t it always been Mr. Har
rison’s thinking as expressed to you from time to time
that the primary reason for backing this Scotland Neck
School bill and law was to improve the education of
the students who live in the Scotland Neck area over
and above everything else, both black and white?
A I’m thoroughly convinced of that.
Q And, based on your experience on the School Board
for many years, the Halifax County School Board, and
the knowledge you have of the— of the conditions in Hali
fax County, don’t you also— aren’t you also of the opin
ion that with this fifty cents additional tax in the Scot
land Neck School area and with the leadership of the
people who are interested in education in this area, that
the Scotland Neck School, under the new law, separate
system, has a good chance of improving its overall stand
ard of education for its students here?
A I think so, because there would be more money
available.
Q Now, Mr. Moore, in regards to the long-range plan
or the ultimate plan that the State came up with for
Halifax County, which I believe required a substantial
bond issue for the entire County, at the time this was
— this plan was completed by Dr. Pearce to the board
what was your personal opinion as to the possibility of
obtaining a favorable vote on such a bond issue?
A In my opinion it would be impossible.
Q Was that not the general thinking of the entire
Board of Education at that time?
A So far as I know it was.
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Q And your recollection of the discussion of the—
strike that. There was no official vote taken on whether
or not the bond issue would pass or fail by the Board,
was it?
A No.
Q But from your discussions with the individual
members and knowing what you know of the situation,
what was your impression of what the other board mem
bers thought of the possibility of such a bond issue pass
ing?
A I don’t recall any of them— any of them making
an opinion that it would pass. They all, all of them, all
the Board’s opinion was that it would not pass.
Q Even if the— if the voters in— who live in the
Halifax County School Administrative Unit boundaries
voted the majority for it, would that necessarily mean
that such a bond issue would carry?
A No. No, I don’t think so.
Q Why is that?
A Because of your population in the Weldon School
District and the Roanoke Rapids School District.
Q Isn’t it true that from a political standpoint, from
the standpoint of the number of registered voters in the
entire County, that those registered voters who live in
Roanoke Rapids and Weldon School Districts comprise
approximately half of the total voting population of this
County?
A Yes, I think so.
Q And hasn’t that to some extent been one of the
problems that any bond issue would— which had to be
submitted to— to get money for schools, isn’t that one of
the problems that has existed for many years in this
County?
A Yes, it has. And in my opinion the bond issue
that we are now paying off was only carried because
the people in Roanoke Rapids wanted it, not the— they
voted a large vote for it, one that we are now paying
off.
Q And what do you think the possibility of any— if
it were put to a vote, of any possible consolidating of
Halifax County?
MR. BOURNE: Object to that. That calls for specu
lation.
138
MR. JOSEY: We’ve been dealing in speculation for
two weeks on these depositions. I’m going to ask him
and you can strike it from the record at the proper time.
Q (Mr. Josey) Based on your experience in Halifax
County over the past fifty years, particularly on the
School Board, what do you think the possibilities of a
favorable vote in this County would be on consolidating
Halifax County Schools with Roanoke Rapids and Weld
on Schools?
A I don’t think it’s possible.
Q And don’t you agree that— wouldn’t you say it is
fair to say it is because they feel they’ve got a better
school system, possibly better teachers, more money to
run their schools with on a per pupil basis?
MR. BOURNE: I object to that.
Q (Mr. Josey) And in fact that is the reason they
would not want to consolidate with Halifax County—
isn’t that correct?
MR. BOURNE: I object.
MR. JOSEY (To W itness): Go on and answer.
A Yes. It’s been— we as a Board have been knowing
that all along, knowing all along that any good teachers
we get in the County wind up in Roanoke Rapids. They
pay a supplement and they get the better teachers. And
we have agreed among the Board members for a number
of years that their system is a better system than the
County system. They offer more subjects and have more
participation in all phases of the school.
Q (Mr. Josey) And wouldn’t you say, also, that one
of the— that they have— that they will raise these funds,
these supplemental taxes to some extent because they
have local members of their Board who have the author
ity to hire and fire their principals, their superintendents,
their teachers, whereas the other communities in the
County do not have that authority and control over their
local schools?
A Yes.
Q Isn’t that at least a part of it?
A Yes, I would say so.
Q And, Mr. Moore, aren’t there some problems which
are created for the Halifax County School Board admin
139
istratively because of the great distances between— from
one end of the County to the other that you would not
have if it were more compact physically?
A Yes. There are bussing complications because of
the distance that we— as I said awhile back, I live ap
proximately seventy-five miles from Scotland Neck. I
don’t know anything that’s going on in Scotland Neck.
I am just not in contact with it at all.
Q And as far as the— well, the consequences of Scot
land Neck being a separate unit and approximately eight
hundred to a thousand students attending Scotland Neck
School, that still will— there still will remain in the
Halifax County Systen nine or ten thousand students,
which is completely adequate for— as far as educational
purposes is concerned— for a sizeable unit. Isn’t that
correct? In Halifax County.
A I would think so, yes.
Q And the creation of a Scotland Neck Unit will not
diminish in any way, will it, the amount of County tax
money or State money or federal money per student for
the remaining part of Halifax County?
A I don’t think it would. It shouldn’t.
MR. JOSEY: Your witness, Mr. Crew.
EXAMINATION BY MR. CREW:
Q Mr. Moore, I believe you testified you had been on
the Board for approximately fifteen years and chairman
for some ten years?
A As best I can recall.
Q And you certainly didn’t serve that fifteen years
for the pay that you got, did you?
A No.
Q Have you at any time had anything in mind other
than improving the quality of education in the schools
of Halifax County?
A No.
Q Did the Halifax County Board at any time do any
thing to encourage the creation of the Scotland Neck
Unit?
A No.
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Q From your experience on the Board, Mr. Moore,
is it necessary that the schools have the support of the
people of the County in order to be successful?
A Yes.
Q In your opinion I ask you if the new private schools
that have been created in the last three or four years in
this County and in adjoining areas, I ask if in your
opinion the quality of education in those schools is not
inferior to that of our public schools?
A In my opinion I think they are.
Q If immediate and total desegregation should be or
dered in all of the schools of Halifax County, I ask if
in your opinion that would not encourage the building
of more private schools and the expansion of the private
schools now existing in this County and surrounding
counties?
A Yes, it would.
Q And I ask if in your opinion the net result of that
could not be and probably would be that there would
actually be less integration in our schools than we now
have if that should occur?
A Yes.
Q Now you spoke of the various meetings that the
School Board had and regular meetings and special meet
ings. I believe you stated that much of the opposition to
the school board’s plans for more integration met with
opposition from Negro delegations?
A Yes, sir.
Q And I ask you wasn’t there considerable opposition
from the parents in the John Armstrong Chaloner School
in the Roanoke Rapids area?
A Yes, there were.
Q And I ask you during your time on the Board if
you have not at all times tried to improve and expand
our school so as to improve the quality of education for
all students, including the Negro students in the County?
A Yes, we have.
Q And as a practical matter, from your knowledge of
the voting patterns and the voting precincts, I ask you
if it isn’t a fact that you as chairman of the Board have
141
gotten the majority of the Negro vote every time that
you have been a candidate for the Board?
A In my opinion I think I have.
Q Now you were on the Board when we had the bond
issue in 1958 or 1959, the three million dollar bond is
sue?
A Yes.
Q And the vast majority or a large percentage of
that which went to the County went to improve the
Negro schools in the County, did it not?
A The majority did.
Q Now when the School Board in March, I believe,
of 1969, voted to adopt the freedom of choice plan for
the school year 1969-1970, I ask if the bill setting up the
Scotland Neck Unit had already been introduced in the
General Assembly at that time?
A Yes, it had.
Q And at that time the bill setting up the Littleton-
Lake Gaston Unit certainly was in the discussion stage,
if it had not already been introduced?
A Yes.
Q I ask if it is not impractical and almost impossi
ble for the County Board of Education to make any
substantial changes implementing integration in our
schools until the Scotland Neck question and the ques
tion of the Littleton-Lake Gaston Unit have been offi
cially settled?
A Yes.
Q And I ask from your fifty years experience as a
citizen in the County and from your fifteen years mem
bership on the Board that if the recommended consolida
tion of the high schools in the county units, so that we
would have the two as recommended in the long-range
plan, once they become an accomplished fact I ask if it
would not be easier at that time to have total and com
plete integration in our schools as required by the fed
eral law?
A Yes, I think so.
Q Do you know, Mr. Moore, the ratio of Negro and
white students that there will—would be for the pro
142
jected enrollment for the Littleton-Lake Gaston School
for the current— for the coming school year?
A The district is composed of approximately 55 per
cent Negro and 45 percent white.
MR. CREW: That’s all.
MR. JOSEY: Let me ask one or two questions?
MR. BOURNE: Okay. Fine.
EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEY:
Q Mr. Moore, back in— in August of 1968 the agree
ment that was entered into between the Halifax County
School Board and the Justice Department was not as
Mr. Bourne said, but wasn’t it that the seventh and
eighth grade of certain Negro schools would be put into
each and every predominantly white school— that was
what we were to do, what the Halifax County School
Board was to do in the year 1968-69, isn’t that correct?
A Yes.
Q I believe Mr. Bourne said that every Negro sev
enth and eighth grade would be taken out and put into
a white school, but that was not the case, isn’t that cor
rect?
A That’s right.
Q Because there were certain schools, such as East
man, which were not physically close enough to any white
school in order to do that with Eastman?
A That’s right.
Q Eastman would still have remained black, totally
black?
A Yes.
Q And then the other part of the agreement was that
by March 15, 1969, the Halifax County School Board
would submit a plan to the Department of Justice which
would be in compliance with the Civil Rights Act of 1964,
isn’t that basically the agreement?
A That’s right.
Q Now, certainly by January of 1969, and in Febru
ary of 1969, isn’t it true that the Halifax County School
Board, and particularly Mr. Overman and Mr. Currin
at the board’s request, set about to come up with a plan
143
which in the opinion of the board attorney, and in the
opinion of Mr. Overman and Mr. Currin, would be in
substantial compliance with the Civil Rights Act of 1964?
A Yes, they did.
Q And in fact they came up with such a plan some
three or four weeks ahead of the deadline and submitted
it to the Department of Justice, and the reason that it
was submitted a month early was so that the Halifax
County School Board could get some decision early in
order to know what was going to be done for the year
1969-70, isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct. We wanted to get the information
to the patrons of the school community children before
the end of the school year.
Q And isn’t it true that that plan as submitted to
the Department of Justice as a practical matter elimi
nated— strike that word ‘eliminated’— integrated enough
Negro students into the white— the several predominant
ly white schools in this County to in fact eliminate every
predominantly white school and at least had in the neigh
borhood of fifty percent whites and fifty percent blacks
in practically every—in every white school in this
County?
A Approximately, yes.
Q Yes. And the School Board submitted that plan to
the Department of Justice in spite of opposition from
the blacks, the whites, and the Indians and everybody
else in— practically— in this County was on the neck—
back of the School Board for submitting that plan, and
the School Board was going to do that because they had
felt like there was a good faith effort in trying to com
ply with the law, isn’t that correct?
A Yes, it is.
Q And isn’t it true that the Department of Justice
sat on that plan for quite a long time before they re
jected it, isn’t that correct?
A For one or two meetings. I know one or two
months, I know. Maybe more. I don’t remember the
exact time.
A And isn’t it also true that the Department of Jus
tice was immediately notified— strike that. That when
144
the Department of Justice notified the Halifax County-
School Board of the fact that this plan was rejected, that
it did not in any way suggest any sort of minor changes
in it that could be accomplished, but in fact practically
rejected the thing from top to bottom to the extent that
the Halifax County School Board was left without any—
any plausible alternative?
MR. BOURNE: I object.
Q (Mr. Josey) Isn’t that correct?
A That’s right, we felt this was as far as we could
go and certainly further than the general public was go
ing itself.
Q And wasn’t it the feeling of the School Board and
the determination of the School Board all through the
Fall of 1968 and through the winter of 1968, and Janu
ary and February of 1969, that they were going to make
a strong determined good faith effort to comply with the
Civil Rights Act of 1964?
A Yes, we worked on that thing every meeting during
that school year, I think, trying to meet the deadline
and come up with a plan that would be acceptable.
Q And was it not the feeling of the School Board
and— the Halifax County School Board, after this plan
was rejected, that if some change was going to be made
in the Fall of 1969 that the Department of Justice should
make some prompt move so that Halifax County School
Board could have a reasonable length of time to plan for
the 1969 fall school year?
A Yes. We felt like we would need time to make
the change, if any.
Q In fact, nothing, an order, no communication, was
had from the Department of Justice or from H.E.W., or
any other governmental agencies until this suit was filed
on June 16, 1969, isn’t that right?
A Yes, to my knowledge that’s right.
Q Isn’t it also true, Mr. Moore, that each and every
time that the Department of Justice communicated with
— with the Halifax County School Board, back as early
as the summer of 1968, that the Halifax County School
Board immediately responded to their communication, co
operated with their investigators here during the sum
145
mer of 1968, and immediately upon hearing from the
Department of Justice that we were in violation—that
the Halifax County School System was in violation of the
Civil Rights Act of 1964, that the representatives of the
school— of the Halifax County School Board went to
Washington to discuss the matter with the officials of
the Justice Department, and in each case not only tried
to cooperate, but tried to help solve the problems that—
and solve the problems in a legal and lawful way in ac
cordance with the interpretation of those laws by the
Justice Department?
A Yes, that’s true.
Q And isn’t it your impression that you and other
members of the Board, and also the superintendent, Mr.
Overman, and the assistant superintendent, Mr. Currin,
and the attorney for the Halifax County School Board
have at all times been open and honest with the federal
officials, both H.E.W. and the Department of Justice,
in the facts and figures and conditions and circumstances
of the school system of Halifax County?
A Yes, that is true.
MR. JOSEY: Your witness.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BOURNE:
Q I believe you said in response to some of Mr.
Josey’s questions that it was immediately after the Green
decision— the GREEN v. NEW KENT COUNTY, in
May of 1968, that the Board of Education for the County
asked the State to run a survey of this County’s schools,
is that correct?
A As best I can remember, that’s correct.
Q Was one of the purposes of obtaining this survey
to obtain the best plan educationally for the desegregation
of the schools of the County?
A I didn’t get that question.
Q Was one of the purposes—
A Oh, yes, yes.
Q One of the purposes, not the only purpose, but one
of the purposes of this plan was to obtain the best plan
educationally for the desegregation of the schools in the
County?
146
A Yes.
Q Was this one of the problems that the Board con
sidered when it asked for the plan?
A Yes.
Q And I believe you stated that in—from— until 1964,
or five, there was no desegregation at all in public schools
in Halifax County, or at least in the Halifax County Ad
ministrative Unit?
A I believe I did state that, yes.
Q And that—
A 1964-65.
Q I think either 1964, or five. The record will
speak—
A I believe we had some segregation before then— I
mean integration before then. I should have brought my
minutes and I could have been a little bit—
Q At any rate it was in the mid-sixties?
A Yes, because we had integration from the Indian
race into both the white schools and the Negro schools
before that time.
Q But in white-Negro—whites in predominantly Ne
gro schools and Negroes in predominantly white schools,
you didn’t have any of that before 1964?
A I don’t think so.
Q Now I believe you stated there was a plan in 1966
for a consolidated high school to be here in this—to be
built here in this area, isn’t that correct? 1966, I be
lieve there was a plan; you went to Raleigh and talked
to Dr. Pearce about constructing a school in this area, a
consolidated high school, in this area?
A That’s correct.
Q And at that time is it not correct that you have
already stated that you were operating under freedom of
choice and that was your desegregation plan?
A I didn’t get that question.
Q Isn’t it correct that you were operating under free
dom of choice at that time?
A What year now?
Q 1966.
A Yes, I think so.
147
Q Do you know of any counties around here, in this
area of North Carolina, that were not operating under
either freedom of choice or no integration at all at
that time?
A Do I know of any counties?
Q Yes, sir, in this area, in 1966.
A Yes.
Q Which one?
A Well, Warren County for one.
Q Was operating under what system?
A Under freedom of choice.
Q But do you know of any that were not operating
under freedom of choice?
A No.
Q They were operating under pairing or complete
zoning of school districts?
A State the question again.
Q Do you know of any schools that were operating
with complete zoning at that time or pairing of schools
at that time in this area of North Carolina?
A No.
Q Was any plan by the Board of Education of Halifax
County to zone this County?
A No.
Q Any plan to pair the schools of this County?
A in 19—
Q ’66.
A There was discussion about it, but no plan.
Q Now I believe in response to a question by Mr.
Josey that you stated that the per pupil monies available
to the County Board of Education would not diminish be
cause of the creation of the Scotland Neck School System?
A I don’t think it would.
Q Isn’t it true that the County School System has lost
State allocation for an instructional supervisor and have
to either not have one of its instructional supervisors
or be funded out of County funds?
A That’s right.
Q Are there any other losses to the County in terms
of staff or other—in any other way allocation from the
State funds?
148
A Not that I know of. It hadn’t been brought to my
attention.
Q How many instructional supervisors did you have
last year?
A I believe it’s four. I’m not sure though.
Q Four?
A I think.
Q And this year you will have three?
A No, no four.
Q And one of those salaries will be paid out of the
County?
A It’s three. It will be whatever number it was last
year.
Q Now, I may have asked you this question. I just
want to clarify this information. When was the first time
that you heard that the junior high school campus might
be needed in the Town of Scotland Neck for the Town
schools?
A It was in the meeting that we—joint meeting that
we had with the Scotland Neck School Board, which was
immediately after the School Board was created, the
Scotland Neck School Board was created.
Q You had not heard talk that it might be needed
before that time, informally?
A No.
Q I believe you testified in response to questions by
Mr. Josey concerning the school system— systems planned
as submitted to the Justice Department in the late win
ter or early spring of this year, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Now are you generally familiar with the provisions
of that plan?
A Yes, I think so.
Q Isn’t that true that that plan divided the district,
the administrative unit into five zones?
A Four or five, as I remember it.
Q This plan received publicity in the local newspa
pers?
A Yes.
Q Was a map drawn in the local newspapers to—which
relatively accurately described the boundary lines of these
149
various zones and showed which schools were included in
these zones?
A I think so. I think that was paid for by the Coun
ty, by the County School Board.
Q I have here what purports to be a clipping. I
would like to ask you to look it over, simply to refresh
your memory. . . . Now is it substantially accurate to
say that one part of the plan would have placed all stu
dents in the attendance area of the William R. Davie
School in high schools in that area, and the children
of the elementary school, that is to say, grades one through
seven, of that age level, and that grade level, would
have gone to either Aurelian Springs or Everetts School
on a zoning basis?
A Yes, I think so.
Q And is it also fair to say that in the attendance
areas of the Eastman School all children living within
that area and attending grades eight through twelve
would have attended the Eastman high school and that
all children living in that area and attending grades one
through seven would have attended either Hollister, Pitt
man or White Oak School on the basis of lines drawn
across that larger attendance for separate elementary at
tendance for those schools?
A Yes.
Q Is it fair to say that all children living in the
Mclver area would attend that school as a union school,
grades one through twelve?
A Yes.
Q That was the plan?
A Youlre reading the plan?
Q Right. Now is it fair to say that in area one,
which was the area served— formerly served by the
Brawley High School and the Scotland Neck High School,
that all students would attend the Brawley School or the
Scotland Neck School, all high school students, on the
basis of freedom of choice?
A Yes.
Q That was the plan?
A Yes.
150
Q Is it not also true that all children attending grades
one through five living in the Scotland Neck and Brawley
attendance areas would attend one of those two schools
on the basis of freedom of choice, either the one or the
other, on the basis of freedom of choice?
.A. es
MR. JOSEY: Off the record.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
MR. BOURNE: He answered the question, the first
question that Mr. Josey objected to.
Q (Mr. Bourne) Now in reference to that last ques
tion was your answer based on the assumption—that
question— I said Scotland Neck and Brawley attendance.
I meant the attendance zones as defined in the plan, zone
one E, which is the zone of attendance for the elementary
grades for those schools and not for the high school
grades of the Brawley and Scotland Neck Schools?
A Yes.
Q Isn’t it also true that in zone two, which is served
by the Enfield and Inborden Schools, one of which is pre
dominantly white and one of which is and has been all
Negro, the Inborden School has been all Negro, that all
pupils in grades one through five and nine through twelve
would attend those schools on the basis of freedom of
choice, and that grades seven and eight would be as
signed to the Enfield School?
A Yes.
Q Now have we just recited for each one of the zones
the essentials of the plan that was submitted to the De
partment of Justice?
A Yes.
Q And is it not true that in one of those zones, the
Brawley-Scotland Neck zone, there would have been free
dom of choice for all high school pupils, grades nine
through twelve, and that in one of those there would
have remained freedom of choice for grades one through
five, all pupils, that is, area two, the Enfield-Inborden
area, and the other one for the smaller elementary area,
that would have remained freedom of choice for grades
one through five— the Scotland Neck area?
151
A Yes.
Q Now I believe you testified—well, strike that. Isn’t
it true that for area two, the Enfield-Inborden area, the
only zone of pupils into one school, both black and white
would have been for the seventh and eighth grades of
those schools?
A Yes. I can’t remember all of that stuff. . . . Yes,
that’s right.
Q Isn’t that precisely what happened in 1968-69 in
that area of the County, there was freedom of choice for
all grades except grades seven and eight in that section
of the County?
A I think that’s correct.
Q And grades seven and eight at that time were as
signed to the Enfield School?
A I think that’s right.
MR. JOSEY: Off the record.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
A There was only one grade in the 1969-70 school
year assigned to the Enfield graded school from the In-
borden School.
Q (Mr. Bourne) Now at the time this plan was sub
mitted, of course, the freedom of choice period for the
1969-70 school year had not been adopted, is that cor
rect?
A No.
Q Had not been carried out?
A No.
MR. BOURNE: I think that’s all.
EXAMINATION BY MR. CREW:
Q Mr. Moore, the Supreme Court has held in its re
cent decision that it is more concerned with the end re
sult of the various methods used by the school boards
than the methods— and by end results meaning the
amount of segregation over integration in the schools. I
ask you if in your opinion the plan about which you
have been extensively cross-examined, if that had been
approved by the Justice Department if the end result
152
would not have been you would have had more integra
tion in the schools of Halifax County than you have
ever had before?
A Yes.
Q And that plan was turned down by the Justice
Department?
A Yes.
Q And the day that it was turned down the School
Board then adopted freedom of choice for the school
year 1969-70?
A Yes.
Q And I ask if the School Board at that time had
not waited as long as they could in order to start mak
ing their plans for the following year?
A Yes.
Q It is in evidence that the hearing is set for Au
gust 25th, and the schools in our County open on or
about August 28th. I ask you if it is not impossible and
impractical to make substantial changes in the operation
of the Halifax County Schools or the Scotland Neck
School Unit within two days, that is, from August 25th
to August 28th?
A I think that would be impossible.
Q I ask if it would not be extremely detrimental to
the education of all children in the County that we at
tempt any transfer of students or transferring of teach
ers during the current school year?
A Yes, I think so.
MR. CREW: That’s all.
EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEY:
Q Projecting the plan which you submitted and which
the Halifax County School Board submitted to the De
partment of Justice in February of 1969, with particu
lar regard to the Scotland Neck School and in regard
to the Enfield School, taking the— taking the total num
ber of students which the Halifax County School Board
anticipated would— that is, the number of Negro stu
dents that they anticipated would select the Scotland
Neck School and the Enfield School based on the freedom
153
of choice in the grades where they had a freedom of
choice, and based on what the— the number of students,
Negro students, that would be assigned to those white—
each of those white schools, that is, the sixth, seventh,
and eighth grade in Scotland Neck and the seventh and
eighth grades in Enfield, and further considering the
projection of white students which would be— would not
be in attendance in the public schools for the year 1969-
70, did not the Halifax County School Board anticipate
that those two schools, Enfield and Scotland Neck, as
well as every other white school, predominantly—for
merly predominantly white school in the County would
be at least in the neighborhood of fifty percent Negro
and fifty percent white by the time that the school doors
opened in 1969-70?
A That was our opinion, yes.
Q So, based on the previous experience and on the
knowledge that the School Board and the Superintendent
and Assistant Superintendent had at the time that this
plan was submitted, if the plan had been implemented,
if the plan had been accepted by the Department of
Justice and had been implemented in the Fall of 1969,
wouldn’t it be fair to say that the projection was that
there would not be a predominantly white school left in
the County?
A Yes, sir.
MR. JOSEY: All right. I believe that’s all.
MR. CREW: That’s all.
(FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT)
* * * *
DR. CRAIG PHILLIPS
Being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. KENNEDY:
Q State your name and occupation, please.
A Craig Phillips, State Superintendent of Public In
struction.
154
Q How long have you been State Superintendent?
A Since January third, 1969.
Q How long have you been a professional educator?
A Since 1943, when I acquired my first degree in—
my A.B. degree in teacher education.
Q Do you have a PhD or doctorate?
A A doctors in education, yes, sir.
Q After you got your doctorate were you a super
intendent—were you a principal first?
A No. I had been a principal and when I got my
doctorate I moved into the assistant superintendency in
Winston-Salem, North Carolina, and subsequently at
Charlotte-Mecklenburg.
Q During the time you were at Winston-Salem was
there a merger between the school units of Winston-
Salem in Forsyth County?
A No. There was not while I was there.
Q Pardon?
A There was not while I was there.
Q Did that occur before or after you left?
A After I left.
Q Did you assist in planning for that?
A Worked on the staff in planning for that, yes.
Q In general, were there educational advantages that
resulted after the merger of the two systems?
A I was not there when the merger did take place.
It took place two years after I left.
Q When you were planning for the merger, did you
anticipate that there would be educational—
A Yes.
Q — educational advantages?
A Yes.
Q In general, what were some of these advantages?
A Curriculum improvement, staff improvement, bet
ter utilization of staff. Better decision making concern
ing location of facilities, basically those things which
would normally come with more efficient organization.
Q Prior to the merger what were the approximate
pupil populations for the respective units?
A Somewhere around— I’ll have to guess because I’m
not— don’t recall exactly. Somewhere around twenty-five
155
or thirty thousand in Winston-Salem and about fifteen or
eighteen thousand in Forsyth County.
Q After you went to your position with the Charlotte-
Mecklenburg System had that already been merged by
the time you got there?
A Yes.
Q Is the position you now hold as State Superin
tendent an elected one?
A Yes.
Q Did you participate in any of the study or research
that went into the report known as the Report of the
Governor’s Study Commission on the Public School Sys
tem of North Carolina?
A Yes.
Q Was that report published around December 3,
1968?
A Yes.
Q Does the report— are the names of a number of the
persons and their positions, who worked on the report,
published in the body of this document?
A Yes.
Q Do you know if any group of professional educa
tors in this State, whether with the State Department
of Public Instruction or the Board of Education, or with
any of the universities, or otherwise, who disagrees with
the results of the Governor’s Study Commission Report?
A There’s been some general disagreement with some
elements of the report, but the main report has the over
all endorsement of most of the educational professionals
in North Carolina.
Q Do you know what some of the areas of disagree
ment are?
A How specific do you want me to be? . . . Some of
it had to do with financing programs. Some had to do
with some disagreement on the actual merger of school
systems.
MR. JOSEY: Let me interrupt. We of course agree
on that stipulation that we always agreed to?
MR. KENNEDY: That’s right. The stipulations are
the same ones that occur at the opening of the deposi-
156
tion with Mr. Overman which was taken about two weeks
ago, I believe on a Monday.
MR. JOSEY: I just want that in the record.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Has the State Board of Educa
tion of North Carolina taken a position with respect to
the Governor’s Report?
A No, except to receive it as information. To com
mend the Commission on its work, but no other action.
Q Has Governor Scott spoken approvingly of the re
port?
A No, to my knowledge. I think he alluded to it in
his legislative message, but I’m not sure of the exact
wording.
Q Do you know if Governor Scott submitted a pro
posal to the legislature adopting the studies of the Com
mission?
A I think in the legislative message. I don’t know
that they were identified directly as commission recom
mendations.
Q I take it then that you are generally familiar with
the Study Commission’s recommendations of merger of
schools within units and merger between units and rec
ommendations as to minimum size—
A Yes.
Q —with respect to pupils. Now, with respect to
those last enumerated recommendations, namely, the ones
concerning merger of schools within units and merger
between units and minimum size, do you know of any
school educators anywhere in the country that disagrees
with those conclusions, recommendations?
MR. JAMES F. BULLOCK: May I interrupt just a
moment. I am not acquainted with any of the background
on this. Dr. Phillips, Mr. Moody had to be in Washing
ton and asked me to fill in. Would you please give me
just briefly the purpose of the meeting here?
MR. K E N N ED Y : Yes. This deposition is called by
the plaintiff, the United States of America, in the case
that the Government has against the Halifax County
Board of Education, the Mayor, Board of Commissioners,
and the Town of Scotland Neck, North Carolina. Dr.
157
Phillips has a copy of the complaint that we filed, which
he is now showing you. And we have taken some other
depositions of school officials at the local level.
MR. JOSEY: This doesn’t have to be on the record.
MR. K EN N ED Y : Off the record.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
A I am not aware of any specific objection of any
specific groups. This is all I know.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) So would it be fair then to say
that professional educators across the country, and in
cluding those in this State, with those exceptions as you
have already mentioned, generally favor merger between
units and across unit lines and favor minimum size as
stated in the Governor’s Study Commission Report?
A I am not sure that I can speak nationally because
we’ve got so many different kinds of organizational pat
terns. I think so far as the State is concerned this is a
fairly general educational consensus.
Q Now within the State Department of Public In
struction you have a Division of School Planning?
A Yes.
Q Can you briefly describe that, what this division
does?
A This division is staffed by a director and the peo
ple concerned with engineering-architectural services,
plus educational consultants. And the basic function of
the staff is to respond to the requests from local school
systems^ for, in the main, facility service of the school
system involved. It is a service of the agency and comes
specifically upon request from the local school unit for
these services. And, in the main, it is concerned with
physical facilities and long-range planning.
Q Have there been surveys in the last three years in
which the Division of School Planning has suggested or
recommended possible merger between school units?
A In the State?
Q Yes, sir.
A Yes, I think there have been several.
Q Are you familiar with the school survey involving
Tyrrell County, made in May 1968?
158
A No, I am not. I have not read that one.
Q Do you know what the recommendations are?
A No, I do not. I haven’t seen this.
Q Are you familiar with the recommendations in the
survey done for Durham City and Durham County,
1969?
A I have not read that.
Q Are you familiar with the recommendations made
in the Survey of the Halifax County Administrative
Unit?
A Yes.
Q Do you have a copy of that survey?
A Yes.
Q I ask you to turn to pages 15 and 16, and does
the interim plan appear on those pages, sir?
A Yes.
Q Are you generally familiar with what is recom
mended there?
A Very superficially familiar with it in terms of
specifics.
Q Do you know of any general or specific disadvan
tage from an educator’s point of view which would re
sult if that interim plan were adopted?
A Just a minor comment. Again, I would support
normally the work done by the Division of School Plan
ning in its report. Of course, as it spells out in that
report there, there are purely recommendations. There
are some diversity of organization that is reflected in
the interim plan that could be of concern in terms of the
various grade levels recommended in the different schools,
but it is based on the facilities available at the par
ticular time. Other than this, I must assume that the
planning report was basically sound in terms of the
judgment of the staff doing the job.
Q Could you— could you tell us a little more about
what you mean by grade organization at the particular
school, sir?
A Well, one of the senior high schools recommended
for grades ten and twelve, and then grades eight and
nine being a separate facility. And then another dis
159
trict, grades eight to twelve in the senior high and an
other ten to twelve. We are also concerned when there
is a system of education where there is some inconsist
ency with organizational structure, but there evidently
were basic reasons for this. I want to point out this was
made before I came on the job.
Q Do you have any reason on education grounds to
question the merger or the pairing of the schools that
resulted in these grade organizations?
A You need to define your school merger and pair
ing. They are two different—
Q As I understand, for instance, in District One,
formerly the Brawley School taught grades one through
twelve and the Scotland Neck School taught grades one
through twelve, but under the district— or the plan for
District One only grades ten through twelve would be
taught at Scotland Neck and a different set of grades
would be taught at Brawley. Now, am I correct in un
derstanding that your question was directed at the par
ticular grades that were taught at any particular campus
rather than at the fact of reorganization of the grades
between the two schools?
A I think I am simply saying that under the cir
cumstances as reported in the interim plan, I would sup
port the recommendations made. I question always the
validity of a distorted organization within a school sys
tem itself. This is not organization.
Q By ‘distorted organization within a system’ you
mean that it is inconsistent, as you pointed out, grades
ten through twelve at one school while another school
has grades eight through twelve?
A This is not the ultimate in a desirable organiza
tion, that’s right, remembering local problems always
exist around the State under a number of circumstances.
Q Are there educational advantages to taking, in
Halifax County, the grades, for instance, between Scot
land Neck and Brawley and reorganizing them as the
State Survey has done?
A Are there advantages?
Q Educationally, yes, sir.
160
A I would have to assume that as an interim plan
this—this was the best recommendation that could be
made by the panel of judges who took a look at the sys
tem.
Q Has anybody pointed out to you any reason to ques
tion this particular recommendation by the survey team?
A I haven’t discussed the interim plan with anyone.
Q Have you or did you discuss the possibility of a
separate school system for the Town of Scotland Neck
prior to the time that the Scotland Neck school bill was
introduced into the Legislature in January of 1969?
A Did I discuss?
Q Yes, sir.
A Yes.
Q With whom did you discuss?
A With representatives from the Scotland Neck com
munity.
Q Was this Mr. Josey and Mr. Harrison, who are
present here in this room?
A Yes, Mr. Josey and Mr. Harrison. I’m not sure
how many were involved. There were a number of names.
I’m sure it is a matter of record. There were about five
or six in the group that discussed this.
Q Do you have a record of who was here, who talked
to you?
A No, I don’t believe I do.
Q Do you recall who contacted you to arrange the
meeting?
A Either Mr. Harrison or Mr. Josey, or one of the
representatives, and I’m not aware of this. I don’t recall
it.
Q Did any person in the group explain the reasons
why a separate school system was sought for Scotland
Neck?
A Yes. This was discussed in the conference.
Q Other than these gentlemen that you have men
tioned, and yourself, who else was present?
A Let me ask you this, Mr. Bullock. I have no spe
cific records. Do I recollect as best I can?
MR. BULLOCK: If he’s satisfied with your best
recollection.
161
A There were several members of the staff, Mr. Ken
nedy. Mr. Davis was there, as I recall it, and I think
Mr. Melton, assistant superintendent, was in attendance.
I’m not sure. I would support whatever anybody else
said about who was there. We did not keep a specific
record because it was an informal conference.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) For the purpose of the record,
Mr. Davis is the controller?
A For the State Board of Education, yes.
Q What were the reasons given for desiring a sepa
rate school system for Scotland Neck?
A There, again—
MR. BULLOCK: If you don’t know, you don’t know.
A I would have to be speculative in terms of the
basic reasons I believe. Educational advantages for the
youngsters in Scotland Neck were discussed at length.
Tax support, possible tax support, that was not available
under county-wide support was discussed. Simply, con
cern about the quality of education for the youngsters
involved in Scotland Neck was the major discussion
point.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Was there discussion of an ar
rangement between the Halifax County Board and the
Department of Justice concerning the desegregation of
the Halifax County Schools?
A No, this was not discussed in the conference, at
any in which I participated.
Q Was there any discussion of the number of white
and Negro children in the County?
A Yes, the statistics of the County were discussed,
and the pupil population.
Q Who brought that up, sir?
A I don’t know.
Q Was there any discussion of the white and Negro
— of the number of white and Negro students that the
proposed Scotland Neck system would have?
A I think these statistics were discussed, yes, sir.
Q Was there any discussion as to the number of white
and Negro students who might be going to the Scotland
Neck School or the Brawley School as a result of a re
162
organization plan involving geographic zoning or pair
ing of grades?
A I don’t recall any discussion on that, no.
Q Was there any discussion about the interim plan
as suggested in the Survey?
A No, it was not. In fact, this material was not
there at the time, as I recall.
Q Were you aware at that meeting that arrange
ments had been made between the Department of Justice
and the Halifax County School System to provide a de
segregation plan that would completely desegregate the
Halifax County system by September 1969?
A I had very little knowledge of any of the delibera
tions at that point. This was shortly after I came on the
job.
Q Was there any discussion of private schools, either
in Halifax County or very near to Halifax County?
A Private schools were discussed in terms of the
movement across eastern North Carolina, the general pat
tern of movement, as I recall.
Q When did that movement start, sir?
A I do not know.
Q Was there a discussion of possible withdrawal of
students from the schools in the Scotland Neck area if
there was a further increase of desegregation?
A Concern was expressed, yes.
Q By you or by the other gentlemen?
A Just in the general discussion.
Q Is it your understanding that this concern was one
of the motives behind the suggestion for a separate school
system?
A No, I don’t know that for a fact.
Q Were there any statistics or numbers of students
mentioned who might possibly withdraw to the private
schools?
A I don’t recall the figure, Mr. Kennedy.
Q Was there any discussion about an educational sur
vey which might have been done to disclose the advan
tages for a school system the size of the one for Scotland
Neck?
163
A Could you repeat that one?
Q Were there any—was there any discussion of a
study by any person calculated to uncover educational ad
vantages which would come about once the separate school
system for Scotland Neck was created?
A I don’t recall mention of such a study.
Q Do you now know whether such a study has ever
been done?
A No, I do not.
Q Has anybody ever mentioned to you that such a
study would be done?
A No. I know of no such study.
Q Did you express an opinion to the group, profes
sional opinion, with respect to the educational advantages
for a school system the size of the one proposed for Scot
land Neck?
A Yes. I expressed a concern about this.
Q What were—what were your statements as best as
you can recall them, sir?
A They generally paralleled the kinds of things that
were reflected in the recent study made by the Gov
ernor’s Commission which related to minimal optimum
sizes of both schools and school systems. They also re
flected a general personal philosophy of mine that lends
toward the general merging of school systems where local
acceptance and local responsibility were a part of that
merger.
Q Was there any discussion or— strike that question,
please. Did you direct any remarks concerning the pos
sible effect on desegregation which the creation of the
separate school system would bring about?
A I think the only thing that I could be specific on
was to recall that— my concern about the eventual ratio
of black and white youngsters in the remaining county
system. This is the only thing that I recall expressing
directly.
Q What— in what ways, what kinds of things, if any,
did you think about, well, would occur if the Scotland
Neck system would be created? I mean I address my
remarks to what kinds of things would occur in the County
164
School System if the Scotland Neck School System were
brought to fruition.
A Again, I do not recall the specific things that were
said. I’m sure they related to the— accentuating the
problem of the majority, the black majority, school size,
which is a problem of our local northeastern section of
the State. I think they reflected the possible loss of
community support in terms of the power structure base
of any community that would give normal support to
increased resources so far as financing interests were con
cerned. I think these were the things that were dis
cussed in that context.
Q Were your remarks addressed to the group in your
capacity as the highest elected educational official in the
State of North Carolina?
A Well, I met with the group as the State Superinten
dent of Public Instruction, yes, at their request to dis
cuss the issues involved.
Q You had mentioned a few questions back that it was
your personal philosophy I think, that you had a per
sonal philosophy with respect to mergers of schools and
units I believe. Is that also your philosophy as an edu
cational educator?
A I expect the term, better than personal— substitute
the word ‘professional’ for ‘personal’.
MR. CREW: What was that answer?
A I substitute the word ‘professional’ for ‘personal’.
This is what you were asking?
MR. KENNEDY: Yes, sir.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) How long did your meeting last
with this group?
A I’d have to guess. I assume an hour, an hour and a
half. Anybody’s guess is as good as another.
Q Did you make any notes?
A Not at that session, no. No.
Q Did you write any letters?
A No, I don’t think I wrote any letters.
Q Did you have any other meetings with these persons
or have any telephone calls or conversations with any
of these persons after that?
165
A I’m not sure of the record. I’d have to check my
own calendar and see if it’s there. I’m sure there were
telephone conversations over a period of time discussing
the pros and cons. I have no actual record of these con
tacts.
Q Do you know whether any Negro persons anywhere
in the State of North Carolina were in favor of the crea
tion of the separate school system for Scotland Neck?
MR. JOSEY: May I have that again.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Do you know if there were any Ne
gro persons anywhere in the State of North Carolina who
expressed themselves in favor of the creation of the sep
arate school system for Scotland Neck?
A Not to me, no.
Q Were any of these persons who talked to you on
behalf of creating a separate school system Negro per
sons?
A No.
Q Did any of these persons who met with you indicate
that they had sought the support of Negro persons?
A I recall a comment being made by one of the par
ticipants— I’m not sure which— that it had been discussed
with some of the Negro leadership of the Scotland Neck
community.
Q I believe it is true, is it not, that the— a bill to
create a separate school system for Scotland Neck was
introduced sometime in the latter part of January 1969?
A I think that is right, yes, sir.
Q Did you have occasion to testify either to the Leg
islature or to a committee of the Legislature about that
bill?
A I appeared before the House Committee on Educa
tion, yes.
Q Did you have prepared remarks or did you have
any written prepared remarks?
A I spoke from some notes that I had prepared for
that presentation, yes.
Q Do you still have those notes, sir?
A Yes.
Q Can you give us the general direction of your re
marks? Were they against the bill or in favor of it?
166
A They were opposed to the bill.
Q Were any of your reasons the same reasons that you
have just told us about, that you gave to the group
who met with you earlier?
A They were basically the same.
Q Do you know of any other professional educators
who testified with respect to the Scotland Neck bill?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Is it true, then, as far as you know, the only pro
fessional educator who testified before the Legislature,
yourself, was against the bill?
A To the best of my knowledge.
Q Do you disagree on educational grounds with the
recommendations of the Governor’s Study Commission
Report or any of them?
A I signed the Governor’s Commission Report as one
of the seventeen member commission and gave it my en
dorsement.
Q Assuming that there exists a rural school system of
approximately ten thousand pupils, and assuming that
there was a proposal to carve out of that system a
smaller unit of approximately a thousand pupils, do
you know of any educational advantages that would re
sult from such a move?
A No. I could not specify any.
Q In general, are there advantages, educationally
speaking, in the operation of a school system with ten
thousand pupils over a school system of one thousand
pupils?
A It is my opinion that there are, yes.
Q Are some of these advantages set out in the Gov
ernor’s Study Commission Report?
A Yes.
Q Might one of the advantages be efficiency of opera
tion?
A Yes.
Q Is another one a lower per pupil cost of operation?
A I would not consider that an advantage, per se. An
educational advantage.
Q Is one of the possible advantages the assignment of
teachers to their major fields of study?
167
A Yes.
Q In their major fields of study?
A (Witness nods in the affirmative)
Q Is there another advantage possibly, a larger num
ber and a greater variety of subjects and courses offered?
A Yes, if appropriately organized.
Q Do you find in the larger system, that is, the ten
thousand pupil system, a greater effort made or a greater
amount of special educational services than in the smaller
system?
A Let me see. This is not automatically true simply
because of the size. There are smaller school systems
that are more efficiently organized, better financed, and
better supported. There is not an automatic upgrading
of efficiency simply on the basis of pupil population.
Q Are you familiar with a publication entitled “Or
ganization of the School System in Georgia,” by a man
named Mr. W. C. McClurkin?
A I know the name Mr. McClurkin. I do not know
the Georgia study.
Q Yes, sir. Wasn’t that publication used in the Gov
ernor’s Study Commission Report?
A I think Mr. McClurkin was quoted. I was not
aware that it came from that study. I would have to
check the reference.
Q Is he generally regarded among professional edu
cators as himself a professional educator? Is he a—
A Yes.
Q And is he generally regarded as a competent leader
in his field?
A Yes.
Q Would you regard him as an expert in this field?
A Yes. /
Q Since January of this year have you made any
public statements with respect to the possible effect on
the desegregation of Halifax County Schools that would
come about if the Scotland Neck bill were enacted?
A Let me get you to repeat that one again.
Q Have you expressed yourself publicly since January
1969 concerning the effect that the Scotland Neck sep
168
arate school system would have on the desegregation of
the schools of Halifax County?
A I have expressed on numerous occasions my concern
as State Superintendent about the creation of the Scot
land Neck unit, both before and after its creation by the
General Assembly. I don’t recall, except in one instance,
the television appearance— I don’t know what the date
was, but you can check the date—where a question was
asked by one of the panelists who— my opinion of the
relationship of this move to the problems of desegregation
and to the best of my knowledge I did indicate a con
cern about its impact on the total problems of the north
eastern section of North Carolina, and specifically Hali
fax County.
Q In general, would the creation of such a school
unit ameliorate those problems or would they accelerate
the problems?
A Well, I would repeat what I said a little while ago,
that, my opinion, it would accentuate the problems of
the majority, black majority school unit.
Q Has anyone asked either your office or the Division
of School Planning for assistance in setting up the Scot
land Neck School System?
A Yes. We have had numerous requests for help, and
throughout the Department, in terms of creation of the
unit, in terms of curriculum problems, financing prob
lems, staffing problems, the normal requests that would
come from a school unit to the Department.
Q Whom, or to whom or to what office are curriculum
problems addressed?
A We have an assistant superintendent for program
service, and he would coordinate the efforts of our pro
fessional staff.
Q Do you recall his name?
A Dr. Jerome Melton.
Q Going back for a moment to the January meeting
you had with the advocates of the Scotland Neck School
System, was there any discussion at that meeting about
charging tuition to students residing outside the limits
of the school system?
169
A Yes. Tuition was discussed, and I think that the
major discussion referred to how it could be done and
whether it could be done legally.
Q Well, was there any indication as to the race of the
majority of the students who would be paying tuition or
possibly be paying tuition?
A No, not to my recollection. I recall that it was
discussed. Tuition is always discussed as always open
to all.
Q Was there any discussion of the legal effects of
charging tuition, the legal problems involved in charg
ing tuition?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Would the tuition be available to persons trans
ferring from without, outside the Scotland Neck Unit to
inside the unit? Is that how it would work ?
A Yes. Tuition is— the charging of tuition is allow
able in any school administrative unit for children coming
from outside the unit into that unit.
Q Well, was there any discussion of possible legal
problems under federal law by allowing children outside
of Scotland Neck to transfer into Scotland Neck?
A No. To clarify the answer—
Q Yes, sir.
A The legality of charging tuition was discussed with
us and the question was asked about this legality, and
this answer was that it is legal for a school system to
charge tuition— if this is the legal element you’re talking
about.
Q I ask that one and I also asked was there a dis
cussion of the legality of merely permitting students from
outside the system, that is, outside, of the Scotland Unit,
to come into school in Scotland Neck?
A The question of legality of the allowing of children
coming from outside the unit into a unit on the basis
of tuition was discussed.
Q Without tuition?
A Without tuition?
Q Yes, sir.
A I don’t recall any discussion of that.
170
Q Was there any discussion of the effect on desegre
gation by allowing non-residents of the Scotland Neck
System to come—to go to school within the Scotland Neck
System?
A Not to my knowledge, a direct allusion to that. I’m
not sure I understand your question.
Q Well, taking the number of pupils in the— or who
will be in the Halifax County Administrative Unit this
fall under current projections and the number of students
projected to be in the Scotland Neck System this fall,
and then further dividing them by race, if I were to tell
you that approximately 300 white children would transfer
from the Halifax County Unit to the Scotland Neck Unit
and no more than about 40 Negroes from the Halifax
County Unit to the Scotland Neck Unit, would that—
MR. JOSEY: We’d better put you under oath.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) —would that add or detract from
the desegregation problems facing the Halifax County
Unit?
A I repeat what I have already said twice: that any
increase in the majority figure in the racial makeup of a
school system accentuates the problems from a standpoint
of simply the operation of the school system, and this is
the problem recognized nationally— the majority school
unit.
Q At your January meeting before the bill was in
troduced was there any discussion of a special taxing
district for Scotland Neck or for an area encompassing
Scotland Neck?
A Yes, the specific questions were asked and answered
about the creation of the special tax district, how this
would be done. We did discuss this with the partici
pants.
Q For clarification of the record, in general, can you
tell us how such a district is created? You don’t have
to go into any great detail.
A I think the discussion here was fairly simple be
cause you’re talking about the actual site of the Scotland
Neck District and the creation of a tax district for pur
poses of, school purposes, supplementation, of a school
system, the creation of the framework for a vote, tax
171
vote, to authorize up to a limit of special taxation for
supported public schools of that specific tax district.
Q Can a tax, special tax— can a special tax district
be created within a school administrative unit?
A Yes.
Q Can that be created without requiring the addi
tional creation of a separate administrative unit?
A It is my understanding it can. Of course, that is
spelled out in the public school laws of North Carolina.
Q Was— did you express an opinion as to the advisa
bility of—concerning a special tax district over a sepa
rate administrative unit for Scotland Neck?
A We discussed the possibilities of the creation of
the tax district and this was discussed also in the legis
lative hearing as one means of additional financial sup
port, but not in lieu of any particular—
Q Did you make any recommendations with respect
to a special tax district for Scotland Neck?
A No, because I also professionally have some major
concerns about the creation of special tax units within
the school units.
Q Would you tell us what they, what are your edu
cational reservations?
A Well, simply, again the disparity between the edu
cational opportunity within a unit where the local tax
district has available more supplemental tax dollars for
education. This is another pattern in the State and is
a part of the recommendations here, with the hope that
we can consolidate the special tax district.
Q If you had to make a recommendation for a choice
between— on the one hand— a separate school adminis
trative unit of approximately one thousand pupils and,
on the other hand, a special tax district for approximately
one thousand pupils, which would you recommend?
A I would not recommend either. I think the sepa
rate tax district— again, from the viewpoint of the State,
and this has to respect the local prerogative in making
that decision, which is basic in North Carolina— the
separate tax district would probably be the lesser of the
two in terms of impact, change from an organizational
standpoint. It still would pose some problems in my
opinion.
172
Q You told us earlier that you had some notes of
your comments to the Legislature on the Scotland Neck
bill. Could you make those available right now, sir?
A Is this in order? I have them in my Scotland
Neck file. They are rough notes.
MR. BULLOCK: Yes. They were of public record,
were they not?
A The meeting itself was a public meeting.
MR. K EN N ED Y : Could we take a break and get
those?
THE W ITNESS: Yes.
(RECESS)
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Do you now have the notes that
you used to give your remarks to the legislative com
mittee?
A Yes.
Q On the Scotland Neck bill?
A Yes.
Q Does that have at the top “Halifax County Notes” ?
A Yes.
Q Does that encompass some two and a half typed
pages?
A Yes.
Q Is there also written on the first page and the last
page some handwritten notes, in addition to the typed
notes?
A Yes.
Q Did you write those handwritten notes?
A Yes.
Q Do these notes and does this outline encompass the
substance of your remarks to the legislative committee?
A Yes.
Q Dr. Phillips, do you recall whether you gave—you
made comments with respect to each of these numbered
and lettered note headings?
A I did not go into near the detail that is reflected
in the five major points. I must assume that I touched
briefly on most of it, yet I do recall that I cut short
comments that I did give.
173
Q To your knowledge was there any stenographic re
cording or any other recording made of your remarks
to the Legislature?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Are these notes and is this outline a fair summary
of the remarks that you did give?
A Yes.
Q Do you know when the last separate administra
tive unit was created in this State prior to 1969?
A 1954, I believe is correct.
Q Do your notes reflect the number or the drop in
the number of separate administrative units in the State
in the last few years?
A Yes.
Q Is that a drop from 178 to 157?
A At the time of these notes I had it— seventeen had
been discontinued. And this went from— I think the
highest peak was 177 school units. And this dropped it
to a hundred— 17 was the figure I picked up somewhere,
in terms of having been discontinued, since the peak
was reached. It is now down to a hundred fifty-five I
think— the latest official count, schools. To clarify, at
this point, as I recall there were a hundred fifty-seven
school units in existence at that particular time.
Q Was there a merger which would account for the
lessening of the number from 157 to 155?
A There have been two mergers since this time. One
at Burke County and one in Cherokee County.
Q Was that a merger between a city unit within the
county and—
A These were two city units within county units in
both circumstances, moving from six units to two units.
Q And has there been the creation of the Scotland
Neck System and the Littleton-Lake Gaston and the War-
renton systems?
A Yes.
Q Did you express any opinion to the legislative com
mittee with respect to the Warren ton and Littleton-Lake
Gaston school districts?
A I was not aware of the Warrenton and Littleton-
Lake Gaston. I did not appear on those two cases as
174
they were presented to the General Assembly. I was
present at the Littleton-Lake Gaston hearing but did not
testify.
Q Were you in favor of those bills or against them—
this bill?
A I did not publicly take a stand. I opposed both in
the same light as I did the Scotland Neck.
MR. K EN N ED Y : Thank you, Dr. Phillips. Do you
gentlemen have cross-examination?
EXAMINATION BY MR. CREW:
Q Dr. Phillips, did the Halifax County Board of Edu
cation as such at any time advocate directly or indirectly
the creation of the Scotland Neck Unit as a separate
unit?
A No, sir.
Q I ask you if the problems of Halifax, Warren and
Northampton Counties are not— and other counties in
what is called the ‘Black Belt’— if they are not different
from the problems in the other counties in the State?
A They are different, yes.
Q Is it your opinion that the public schools which
we now have, the quality of education in the public
schools is superior to that in the private schools that
have been created in the last three or four years?
A I will have to distinguish, Mr. Crew. There are
a few—there are a few private schools which have been
created over a long period of time which in my opinion
do basically the same quality job as the evaluative public
schools in the community in which they operate. I do
not believe that the recently created— and I’m talking
about within the last two or three years— I do not be
lieve that the recently created private schools are doing
the basic quality job on a comparable basis with the
schools in the communities which they serve. This is
purely an opinion. There is no basis for this, except
opinion. And we do not have statistical evaluative data
that is reasonably available to make this kind of com
parison.
175
Q Is public support of the parents and the local tax
payer necessary for the success of our public schools?
A Yes.
Q I ask you if in your opinion the orders for imme
diate and total desegregation have encouraged the build
ing of private schools in many areas in the State?
A It is my observation that it’s had its effect on this
movement, yes.
Q Is it detrimental to the education of a child that
during the school year that he be switched from class
room to classroom or from school to school by court order
or otherwise?
A Would you repeat that one?
Q I ask if in your opinion it is detrimental to the
education of a child or children that there be drastic
changes during the school year which would force them
to be switched from one school to another or from one
classroom to another, or from one teacher to another
teacher?
A Normally, movement of this sort would be detri
mental to the youngster involved.
Q From the administrative standpoint is it easier for
school officials to plan during the school year for changes
to take place the following year?
A Yes.
Q Now I believe you have partially answered this
question, but of course there are one hundred counties
in North Carolina?
A (Witness nods in the affirmative)
Q And there are just about one hundred different
school systems, are there not?
A Actually, there are a hundred fifty-five different
school systems, yes.
Q And the problems in the smaller counties and larger
counties are entirely different, or different?
A The problems are different. I would not use the
word ‘entirely’.
Q I ask if the acts of civil disobedience which we
have in some of our high schools, and disregard for law
and order, are not any more prevalent in some of the
176
larger schools than in some of the smaller schools in the
State?
A I think the record would show that the most flag
rant problems of student unrest have taken place in the
urban communities. Now there is probably some cor
relation in size of schools, but it’s mainly been the rela
tionship with the urban community.
Q And you testified with respect to separate units or
special tax units. Dr. Phillips, I ask if many of the
opposed units, in particular, were not created for the
precise purpose of getting superior education or quality
education?
A A number of them were, as I understand the his
tory of it.
Q And the results with the goal of quality education
has been good in many of the separate administrative
units?
A In some, yes.
Q Yes, sir. Is it more difficult to get qualified teach
ers to teach in the schools that have had forced integra
tion at a more rapid pace than the parents— than the
community wanted; it is more difficult to get your better
qualified teachers to teach in those schools?
A . ^ is— the £eneraI opinion is that the school lead
ership in those communities would say that they have
difficulty in assigning teachers in schools that have more
of the problems that relate to integration.
Q Dr. Phillips, I ask if in your opinion either the
Justice Department or the Health, Education, and Wel
fare Department should attempt to force the implemen
tation of integration at a more rapid rate than the peo
ple of the community would accept, would it not result
actually in less integration in the Halifax County Unit
as such because the net result would be to force more
students into the private schools?
A I think the only thing I could answer to that, Mr.
Crew, is the same basic answer to the problem of the
majority black unit, and there has been a tendency, as
I look at the statistics of these systems, for some exodus
on the part of white parents of white youngsters because
of the problems of the majority unit.
177
Q Are you familiar with the recommendations for
some consolidation of schools in the Halifax County Sys
tem, some consolidation of some of the high schools?
A Yes, sir.
Q In your opinion would integration be more accept
able and easier to accomplish after this consolidation
program has been completed?
A I’m not sure I can answer that, Mr. Crew. Could
I go by it one more time, and let me be sure that I know
the question exactly.
Q There is a proposal which has now been acted on
by the local board to consolidate three or four of the
high schools in the southwestern part of Halifax County
in which the population is pretty well mixed. I believe
the plan would be for one high school to replace these
four ̂high schools. In your opinion— of course these
buildings are not in existence now. Once these buildings
are completed, that consolidation could be accomplished.
I ask if in your opinion integration as required by the
courts would be easier at that time than now?
A I think the record would probably show that where
new facilities, adequate facilities are available, that in
tegration of pupils, staff, and community are easier to
accomplish, and this I think would be demonstrated by
a number of school systems.
Q And is it not a fact that members of both races
have shown some resentment of being transferred to
schools of the opposite race rather than going to new
facilities?
A There certainly is a record of a conflict over pupil
assignment both ways. I’m not sure that I can assess
the social or sociological implications of it in trying to
answer that question.
MR. CREW: I believe that’s all. Thanks.
EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEY:
. Q . Dr. Phillips, I believe you mentioned this taxing
district in your direct examination by Mr. Kennedy, and
I will ask you if in fact the first time that this taxing
district was mentioned in connection with the Scotland
178
Neck School Administrative Unit formation was in the
Legislature with the discussion with the Scotland Neck
group?
A I thought we had discussed it in the earlier ses
sion. It was discussed in the legislative hearing.
Q But, in any event, this taxing district would more
or less tie down a—put a fence around the lines of the
school for— and only, basically, only students that lived
in that taxing district would be allowed to go to that
school without paying some commensurate tuition—
wouldn’t it?
A I think this is the interpretaton of the law, yes.
Q And there are several taxing districts, school tax
ing districts in the State presently, isn’t that correct?
A Yes.
Q And only those students that live within that physi
cal tax district are permitted to go to those schools un
less some special arrangements be made otherwise, isn’t
that correct?
A I will have to defer to the legal people for inter
pretation of the law. It’s been my understanding that
the youngster coming into that tax district with the
evaluative tuition paid for him, this would depend on
the local—
Q Yes, sir. That would be basically the same; it
would create whatever problems that the Scotland Neck
School Bill creates with respect to who comes in and
who goes out and who stays?
A I don’t know. I don’t think there is any differ
ence in the pupil assignment.
Q In the taxing district?
A Yeah.
Q, Now I believe you said that Cherokee and Burke
Counties— there had been mergers in those two counties
recently. Did I understand you to say that there were
six units totally that merged into two units?
A Three in each county. A county unit and two city
units in each of the situations.
Q And they merged into one total county unit?
A That’s right.
179
Q Now what size were they, approximately? Let’s
say the Burke County— do you recall?
A No. I will have to estimate. I think Burke County
totalled about 18,000 to 20,000 in three, that were in the
three systems.
Q And what about the Cherokee unit; it’s consider
ably—
A Considerably less. About 1400 or 1600 total.
Q So you end up with a system in Cherokee County
which is approximately 1400, which is very—just slight
ly larger even after the consolidation than that the Scot
land Neck Unit would be in any event, isn’t that cor
rect?
A That’s correct.
Q I believe you stated, did you not, that size of an
administrative— school administrative unit does not auto
matically in itself make a good educational unit, does
it?
A By itself, yes.
Q And, as a matter of fact, Halifax County, of ap
proximately 11,000 students, that is a county unit that
has existed for many years, certainly since 1936?
A (Witness nods in the affirmative)
Q Is approximately twice the size of—the Governor’s
Commission Report indicates should be the minimum size,
isn’t that correct?
A Approximately that, yes.
Q Doesn’t the Governor’s Commission Report indicate
that it should be at least five thousand students?
A It uses the figures for the comprehensive senior
high school or comprehensive junior high school of 750
minimum for those two sizes. It calls for the optimum
— and again it quotes different pieces of work done on
the fifteen to twenty thousand—but it talks about the
fact that a large number of the school systems in the
State are under five thousand. That is where the five
thousand appears in the report. To the best of my knowl
edge the report does not specify the actual minimum
size for the school unit.
Q So that, with the creation of the Scotland Neck
School Administrative Unit of some one thousand, it still
180
leaves the Halifax County School Administrative Unit
approximately ten thousand, which is completely—which
will in no way as far as size is concerned be detrimental
to the Scotland Neck School Unit or the Halifax County
School Unit, isn’t that correct?
A The criteria of minimum size is met in terms of
enrollment of the county, yes.
Q So that the educational disadvantages, as far as
size is concerned, will relate to whatever disadvantages
there is as to the Scotland Neck Unit itself, as far as
size is concerned, isn’t that correct?
A Run by that again.
Q I said by the creation of the Scotland Neck School
Administrative Unit, when we come to the mere criteria
of size as set forth in the Governor’s Commission Re
port, the only—the only children that couM be adversely
affected would be the children in the Scotland Neck
School Administrative Unit, isn’t that correct?
A On the criterion of size, yes.
Q Now, there are other, of course, criteria for edu
cational advantages of school administrative units other
than mere size, isn’t that correct?
A Yes.
Q What are some of those other criteria that you as
a professional educator and as the chief public school
official in this State would set up; what are some of the
other criteria?
A Well, size itself would relate to the ability to offer
a full comprehensive urogram for the children enrolled.
There are some specifics in terms of desirable numbers
of course offerings. There are desirable statistics in
terms of qualification of teachers and the ability of the
teacher to teach in the major field of training and experi
ence. There are administrative criterion in terms of
administrative and supervisory criteria, in terms of serv
ices to be offered by way of consulting services, in the
way of operational services. There are elements involved
in facility planning.
Q What is facility planning?
A Facility planning is the planning of the actual
school buildings, plus the equipment and space that is
181
necessary for programming. It has to do with labora
tories, shops, regular classrooms, multi-purpose spaces,
et cetera.
Q Now, if you as a professional educator go into a
school— into a school unit, not an administrative unit but
into a physical building that houses—has classrooms and
produces students and graduates students, what, as a
professional educator, would you say are the methods to
determine and test the product which a school is putting
out in way of students? How do you go about analyzing
what that school is accomplishing?
A Well, this, of course, is a— the most difficult prob
lem we have in eduation, the evaluation of evaluative
criteria which had been developed over a period of time,
which are reflected in the basic standards established
by the most recognized agencies for accreditation, which
is the Southern Association of Schools and Colleges, which
is a part of the network of eight or nine regional ac
crediting organizations. The standards set by this or
ganization are the best evaluative criteria we have avail
able. Now these, to be specific, relate to ratio of pupil to
teacher, staff assignments, size of libraries, numbers of
volumes in libraries, your course offerings, facilities, con
ditions of facilities, adequacy of facilities— I could go on.
There is a brand new Southern Association of Schools
and Colleges evaluative criteria which is extremely spe
cific in these measures, and yet they are difficult meas
ures to establish. A good school system is constantly eval
uating its effectiveness.
Q Are there any— strike that. Do the tests that
juniors and seniors in high school take in a particular
school— is that— and the scores that they make on these
tests, is that any indication at all of how the school is
doing in producing a student?
A In my opinion, Mr. Josey, the use of achievement
test scores or any other standard test results is a mini
mum kind of measure of the accomplishment of the par
ticular schools in which these students are being trained,
because there are so many variables in terms of back
grounds of youngsters, because the achievement score is
one of the lesser in my opinion of the evaluative measures.
182
Q Would you say that the number of students that
leave that high school and go on to higher education is
some indication of what—whether the school is poor or
good or excellent?
A Again, I would say this is a minor factor in the
measuring of the effectiveness of the school because it
is going to be related to the population being served.
Q And do you mean to say that that is a lesser— that
you give less weight to that analysis than you would
to the number of books in the library?
A I didn’t say that. I didn’t say that.
Q Well, didn’t you indicate that this number of books
per student in the library was one of the criteria under
which the Southern Association of Schools— if that is the
right name— does analyze and more or less grade a school
on its standard or set its standard or sets its standard
for a school—you did indicate that?
A I said it was one of them, yes.
Q One of them?
A I didn’t indicate the degree of importance in my
opinion.
Q Well, do they also use— give any weight to the num
ber of—percentage of students that leave that high school
and go on to higher education?
A As they do a true evaluation they weigh these re
sults against the basic backgrounds of the community
being served and the measurement has to take into ac
count the comprehensiveness of the programs, what has
happened in the other units that do not go. I would
not minimize the record of an individual youngster who
achieves and goes on to college. It is not necessarily
a good measure of quality of a high school as such, is
what I’m saying, to him.
Q But certainly in a community that has a back
ground which would—which—from which a substantial
number of students have for many years gone to college,
and if that number decreases without any decrease in
their background, it would indicate that the school is not
doing the job it should do, isn’t that correct?
A I’m not sure I follow your line of reasoning on it.
Would you ask it again?
183
Q Well, I think you said that it depends on the back
ground of the community as to whether or not—how
much weight you would give to the percentage of stu
dents that graduate who go to college; isn’t that correct?
Didn’t you say that?
A Yeah. I said this would be a measure—let me see
if I can clarify this for you. This would be a measure
of that phase of the total comprehensive program, of the
college preparatory program. There would be no re
lationship between the value of the college preparatory
courses and the number of youngsters succeeding in col
lege. This would be a measure of simply one phase.
Q In your private opinion, in your individual opinion,
do you give more weight to that particular category, that
is, the percentage of students that graduate who go on to
higher education or college, than you do to the number
of books in the—per student in the library in determining
whether or not a school is what it should be?
A I’m not sure that I can put a weight on it from
the standpoint of giving priorities to it. I think you’ve
got to look at the total assessment if you’re going to
measure what happens. I’m not sure that I can answer
that question.
Q But obviously the teacher-pupil ratio is one of the
most important things?
A It is.
Q That faces schools?
A Yes.
Q That is, the teachers are— if there are fewer pupils,
the teachers have to teach them, the better they can get
the job done and the better student they can turn out
basically, isn’t that right?
A The job that they are doing, that’s right.
Q Yes, sir. Now, Dr. Phillips, in your opinion is
there any connection with the amount of funds spent per
student and the standard that the school attains?
A Pupil expenditure is one of the measures, that’s
right.
Q As a matter of fact, that is a rather important item,
that is, money to hire teachers and money to have the
facilities, and money to— without which you just can’t
get the job done, isn’t that correct?
184
A It is a measure, yes. A very definite measure.
Q And another measure of the quality of a school is
the percentage of the teachers who have had prior ex
perience, isn’t that correct?
A Experience is a measure, yes.
Q Now, I believe your office got out some statistics
just prior to the time that you—maybe six months be
fore you took over this job, called “Profile of Significant
Factors in Education in North Carolina, a Ranking of
School Administrative Units, July 1968,” isn’t that cor
rect?
A That’s correct.
Q Is that an annual—has it been up to now an annual
publication by your office or by this office, or do you know?
A I do not know when it started. I know of the last
two years that it has been done.
Q Has it been done for July 1969?
A No, it has not.
Q Do you have any statistics similar to this that are
more current than the July 1968 publication?
A Not compiled, no. I think the statistics are avail
able. They have not been put in that form.
Q Now, Dr. Phillips, this document to which I just
referred, “A Ranking of School Administrative Units,
July 1968,” was of course put out by this office last year,
isn’t that correct?
A That is my—that’s right.
Q Do you know the purpose of this publication?
A I will give you my opinion.
Q Yes, sir.
A Its purpose was simply to compare school units in
North Carolina in certain basic categories. Its pur
pose, as I understood it, was not to imply either quality
or lack of quality by the establishment of rank; it was
actually an assessment of certain kinds of categories of
measure, not particularly quality measure, but measure
of school units in North Carolina. It was done, as I
understood it— I happened to have been a school superin
tendent or just ending up as a school superintendent when
the first one came out— to the best of my knowledge
185
it was presented as a comparative set of data concerning
the categories listed.
Q Well, each of the categories had some connotation of
quality or lack of quality, didn’t it, in your thinking,
and does today?
A Some of the measures in the report have to do with
the quality, and I’d have to look at it to give you— some
do not have to do with quality.
Q Percentages of classroom teachers with graduate
certificates would have some indication that those schools
had had—more teachers with graduate certificates would
be a little better— ought to be— than those that had fewer,
isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q And those— the category of percent of the staff with
other than A or B certificates would have some conno
tation in your mind and in the professional schoolman’s
mind as to quality, wouldn’t it— some slight indication?
A Some indication, yes.
MR. JOSEY: That’s all.
MR. K EN N ED Y : I want to mark this as Plaintiff’s—
Government’s Exhibit # 6 .
(MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION)
MR. K EN N ED Y : The parties stipulated that the
document marked Government’s Exhibit # 6 , which is
entitled at the top, typewritten, “Halifax County Notes”,
and comprising some two and one half pages, is a true and
authentic copy of the original document and may be used
in lieu of the original.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS TOOK
PLACE ON AUGUST 5, 1969)
EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEY:
Q Dr. Phillips, I believe that earlier Mr. Kennedy had
asked you if you had any notes that were made at the
time that you appeared before the various legislative
committees when this bill, the Scotland Neck School Bill,
was pending before the North Carolina Legislature earlier
186
this year, and you turned over to him a three-page docu
ment which was marked for identification purposes
‘Plaintiff’s Exhibit V.
A 6.
MR. KENNEDY: 6.
Q 6. And as I understand these notes were made as
an outline for talks which you may have been called on to
give but in fact you never gave these publicly, this entire
outline or statements made from the entire outline, did
you?
A That’s correct. The notes were made specifically
for the legislative hearing, the House Education Hearing.
Q And, of course these notes were compiled sometime
after the bill was introduced and, of course, were not
compiled prior to or at the time that this group from
Scotland Neck visited your office, isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct. They were actually compiled the
day before the hearing.
Q I will ask you, Dr. Phillips, isn’t it true that your
primary opposition to this Scotland Neck School Bill was
based on the fact that— that it is a policy— it was op
posed to the policy which you feel is the best general
policy, and also opposed to the Governor’s Commission
Report— isn’t that fundamentally why you opposed this
bill?
A I opposed the creation of the bill built upon by own
professional experience and built on the results of the
Commission’s Study, of which I was a part, and which
I help give some direction, but it was— as you indicate
my position was built on a belief that we not only did
not need to create additional administrative units, but we
needed to move in the direction of lessening the number
of administrative units in North Carolina.
Q But that does not mean that in a specific case that
a school created, the size of— Scotland Neck is now, under
this new bill, could not and with the proper support of—
financial and personal support, local support, become a
better school academically than it has been in the past
under the former situation—isn’t that correct?
A No. I’m not quite sure I follow you—your question
specifically. No, I opposed—
187
Q Let me—
A Excuse me.
Q Let me rephrase it then. You are not in any way
saying or have said in your direct examination that there
is no school system of a thousand, or small unit school,
administrative unit, which is not in fact better than some
of the larger units academically or practical—in any way
that you grade them—you’re not saying that are you?
A I think the only thing I can say is that I am op
posing and would oppose professionally, the position of the
State Superintendent, the creation at this moment in
history any school system with too few youngsters to pro
vide the kind of program that it is my responsibility to
help stimulate.
Q Yes. Now—
A I haven’t tried to compare this specific unit which
has been created with any other specific units from the
standpoint of that kind of evaluation. And I would want
to add one other— the Legislature did create within its
prerogative a new administrative unit, and the State De
partment of Public Instruction, which I represent, has
served, and is serving, this school unit as it would any
other school unit in North Carolina.
Q And, of course, somewhere in 1936 they permitted
any unit that had previously been a city unit to remain a
city unit or to become consolidated with a county unit;
at that time that was a general law passed in the late
thirties, is that not correct?
A As I understand it. I do not know the specifics.
Q And, of course, at that time, and for many years
prior to that time, Scotland Neck was a city school unit;
isn’t that your information?
A In general. I haven’t studied the history of the
State from that standpoint, but I understand this is cor
rect, yes.
Q And do you know— do you have any— from exam
inations of the schools— the records of the schools since
it’s been in your—under the State Superintendent of
Schools, do you know whether or not the Scotland Neck
School as a city unit improved greatly when it came into
1 8 8
a county unit, a large unit, approximately eleven or
twelve thousand unit?
A I have no knowledge of this.
Q When you say you have not— at least, in this deposi
tion or the evidence given here— attempted to compare a
small unit with a large unit in these notes, Plaintiff’s
Exhibit 6, at least you have some reference under para
graph 4(b) of a comparison of the Tryon School, the
Fairmont School, at least a review of these two small
city units indicated there, although the notes are incom
plete. Now do you recall what— what point that you were
going to make at that time?
A Let me correct one— I did not say that I had not
compared large and small units. I said that I had not
specifically compared the specific Scotland Neck unit with
a specific other unit.
Q Yes, sir.
A The purpose in including this item (b) under num
ber four was to— if I had the opportunity to describe two
typical small city units in the State. I did not at the
moment have the statistics available when I was going
over to make the presentation and I did not use this—
these statistics are available—but did not in the time in
volved in the presentation at the House Education Com
mittee even get into the statistics on this Fairmont-Tryon
system.
Q Well, do you know— do you have records here in the
office to show that— for instance, this first item here you
have is number of courses in high school. Don’t you have
records here that would indicate that Scotland Neck has
39 courses in high school and Tryon has 46 courses in
high school?
A These records are available. I don’t have them in
front of me.
Q But you have nothing— as far as you know that is
correct?
A I have no way of validating your figures. They can
be validated, yes.
Q But it is quite possible that Tryon, the smallest
school administrative unit in the State, has considerably
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more, number of courses, than the present Scotland Neck
School, high school, isn’t that correct?
A This is conceivable. I do not have the figures. I
can get them if you like.
Q Well, now Tryon is the smallest school administra
tive unit in the State at the present time, isn’t that cor
rect?
A Leaving out the three that have recently been cre
ated, yes. The last estimate I have of the Tryon system
is eight hundred pupils. Again, that can be documented.
Q A t least Tryon, at the time the Scotland Neck
School Administrative Unit was created by the act of the
Legislature, by the referendum on April 8, 1969, Tryon
was the smallest in the State?
A That’s correct.
Q And that is some approximately two hundred stu
dents smaller than it is estimated that Scotland Neck
will be, isn’t that correct?
A If you are using the thousand figure as an estimate
of Scotland Neck, yes.
Q Well, now, isn’t it—you say you do have figures that
would give certain criteria, certain analysis, of the Tryon
School?
A Yes.
Q And what— during the 1968-69 school year, what
was the second smallest school system that you have, if
you recall? Was it Tyrrell County? Have you got some
figures that you could refer to on—
A Table ten, I guess it is, page 35 in the ‘Ranking
in July 1968,’ the smallest enrolled is Camden— no, Tyr
rell is correct, 1133 in 1968.
Q So Tyron is the—was the smallest at that time and
Tyrrell was the next smallest out of all of the units in
the State, isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q Now I believe that you stated earlier in this hear
ing that the percentage of teachers with the graduate
certificates would be at least one criteria upon which to
determine whether—what level a school was on basically,
is that correct?
190
A Level of certification basically is one of the cri
teria.
Q Now, Dr. Phillips, I will ask you to refer to page
two of your— of this ranking of school administrative
units, dated July of 1968, and ask you if in fact Tryon
ranks 59th in the State in that particular category out
of a hundred sixty units, Tyrrell ranks 98th, and Hali
fax County ranks a hundred twentieth— if you will check
that, please, sir?
A Those figures are correct, yes.
Q So that would indicate at least in this one small
category_ a unit with 11,000 approximately students is
not as high up on the standard in this particular analy
sis as the two smaller—smaller administrative unit, is
that correct?
A That’s obvious, yes.
Q I call your attention to page nine, the chart there,
which says the percentage of professional staff not hav
ing regular teaching assignments, and I will ask you if
Halifax County doesn’t rank a hundred thirty-ninth and
Tryon— or Tyrrell County, a hundred twenty-ninth and
Tryon a hundred and eight. Halifax County, a hundred
thirty-nine, Tyrrell County, a hundred twenty-nine, and
Tryon a hundred eight?
A That’s correct. Tryon has three professional staff
who are not regularly scheduled teachers, according to
the statistics.
Q All right, sir. Now, so at least both Tryon County,
or Tryon city school, and the Tyrrell county school rank
slightly better in that particular category than Halifax
County, is that correct?
A They rank higher— I think you would have to do
some interpolation on how those three people were used
and what kind of actual assignments they had and what
kind of responsibilities they were able to carry, so I
would not use the word ‘better’ here as much as I would
the actual ranking in percentage.
Q All right. I call your attention to page 13, which
is a table four showing the percent of professional staff
paid entirely from local funds, and I will ask you if
191
Tryon doesn’t rank 54th in the State, Tyrrell County
ranks 87th, and Halifax County ranks a hundred thirty-
fifth?
A That’s correct. Tryon has two professional staff
paid entirely from local funds. Tyrrell has one and
Halifax has one.
Q So at least those smaller units are providing more
professional staff from local funds percentagewise than
the larger Halifax County Unit?
A That is what the ranking says.
Q All right. And I call your attention to page 17,
table five, which shows the percent of classroom teachers
with maximum experience for pay purposes. And ask
you if Tyrrell County doesn’t rank fifth in the whole
state, Tryon ranks fourteen, and Halifax County ranks
eighty-four?
A Those figures are correct, yes.
Q So there, again, this would indicate that the small
er units had a larger percentage of teachers with maxi
mum experience for pay purposes, isn’t that correct?
A By rank, yes.
Q And this, again, is at least in some small degree
a measure, some measure of the proficiency of a school?
A No. This particular one might he a negative meas
ure. I think you would have to get into some kind of
definition of whether they were community teachers who
had lived there all their lives and been there— again,
there is no yes or no answer to your question.
Q Well, wouldn’t you consider normally across the
board the fact that teachers had more experience for pay
purposes that they would be somewhat better teachers
than those who don’t have?
A No. No. No. Do you want any more than just
a ‘no’ or did you want to get into a discussion? . . . No,
I do not think that is automatically a validation of—
Q What you’re saying is some of the older teachers
are really over the hill as far as teaching and imparting
knowledge to the students and they are not as good as
some of the younger ones?
A Well, if you will compare the maximum “A” cer
tificate indicated people who have their twelve years,
192
which is maximum, but would have been in 36 years,
and compare that individual with a person who has a
graduate degree and additional training in the third,
fourth, or fifth year, then you’ve got to then assess what
are those statistics. I’m again saying this is not an auto
matic measure of quality to my standard.
Q But it would at least indicate the teachers in these
smaller units are not— the turnover, the attrition, is not
quite as great as in the Halifax County Unit, isn’t that
correct?
A That’s correct, yes.
Q For whatever reason?
A Yeah.
Q Now I call your attention to page 21, table six,
showing percent of classroom teachers with no prior ex
perience, and ask you if in fact Halifax County with
some ten or eleven thousand students has more class
room teachers with no prior experience at all than all
but eleven units in the State?
A That is the fact, yes.
Q And in fact Tryon has— is at the bottom of that
list, showing that it has none, has no teachers that are
teaching there now that have no prior experience?
A That’s correct.
Q And Tyrrell County, of course, is in better shape,
condition, as far as this particular chart is concerned,
or this particular ranking, than— somewhat than Halifax
County is. Isn’t that correct? They are—
A Tyrrell is number 38.
Q 38. All right. Now I call your attention to page
25, table seven, percent of high school graduates entering
college, and ask you if Tryon doesn’t rank fourth from
the top and Tyrrell a hundred thirty-fourth from the
top and Halifax County a hundred sixty-second from the
top in that category?
A Those figures are correct.
Q So there, again, this would indicate that the two
smaller schools, the two smallest in the State, are at
somewhat higher standard for that particular category
of ranking than the school administrative unit of Hali
198
fax County which has approximately eleven thousand
students, isn’t that correct?
A It says that they have a higher percent of high
school graduates going to college.
Q Yes, sir. And don’t you agree that that has some
— that that is some measure of proficiency and the stand
ard of the school?
A It’s— it’s two things. It’s a measure of the college
preparatory program, but you’ve got to go one step fur
ther and look at the results of what happens to the
youngsters, but it’s also an indicator of the kind of school
that it is in terms of its major focus. These are two
factors, and again you would have to weigh these closely.
Q Of course Tyrrell County basically is agriculture,
isn’t it?
A Yes.
Q It’s similar to— maybe not the same type of agri
culture, but it’s the same rural economy, rural people,
that— fundamentally that Halifax County is, and it is
down in the eastern part of the State?
MR. K EN N ED Y : Counsellor, is that a question or
comment?
Q (Mr. Josey) I ask you.
A Excuse me. Yes.
MR. JO SEY: I think he said ‘yes’.
A I said that—yes, that Tyrrell and Halifax were
similar.
Q (Mr. Josey) Similar, at least agriculturally ori
ented?
A They both still have a very low percentage of their
youngsters attending college.
Q Yes, sir. All right, sir, now I will direct your at
tention to page 29, or table eight, showing the percent
of high school graduates entering trade, business, or
other formal training, and ask you if Tyrrell County
doesn’t rank sixty-third in the State, Tryon ranks eighty-
sixth, and Halifax County ranks a hundred twenty-
third?
A Those figures are correct.
Q I direct your attention to page 33, which shows the
percent of the 1959 fifth grade graduating in 1967— I
194
believe that table nine, on page 33, shows only the county
units, isn’t that correct? It does not show the city units,
but I think it is just— shows the total county figure?
A Yes, it is based on total county, that’s right.
Q And I will ask you if in fact Tyrrell County
doesn’t— if it doesn’t rank in this particular category
thirty-second out of a hundred counties and Halifax
County ranks ninety-sixth out of a hundred counties?
A Those figures are correct.
Q Now I direct your attention to page 49, table four
teen, which shows the pupil to staff ratio, and ask you if
that staff ratio— does that mean teacher or teacher and
administrative personnel, or do you know?
A It is total—total personnel.
Q Total?
A Yes.
Q Paid professional people?
A That’s right.
Q I will ask you if in that particular category if Try-
on doesn’t rank thirty-first in the State, Tyrrell County
ranks sixty-ninth, and Halifax County ranks a hundred
thirty-eight?
A Those figures are correct.
Q All right, sir. Now I direct your attention to page
53, table fifteen, number of library books per pupil en
rolled, and I will ask you if Tryon City Schools, if that
doesn’t rank twelfth out of all the units in the State,
Halifax County ranks a hundred fortieth, and Tyrrell
is at the bottom of a hundred sixty?
A Those figures are correct.
Q Now, I direct your attention to page 89, which is
table twenty-four, per pupil expenditure of local funds
by the administrative unit, and ask you if Tryon does
not rank forty-eighth in the State, Tyrrell County ranks
a hundred ninth in the State and Halifax County ranks
a hundred twenty-fifth in the State?
A Those figures are correct.
Q N °w, Dr. Phillips, I direct your attention to table
thirty-three, which is local property taxes for schools,
percentages of property taxes for all purposes, and ask
195
you if in fact Halifax County is just at the median,
maybe slightly below the median, in the entire State in
that category?
A Halifax ranks sixty-second, that’s correct.
Q And I believe the median and the percentage is
forty, point eight percent of the taxes in— of all the taxes
that are levied in Halifax County that goes towards
schools, that is forty, point eight percent, isn’t that cor
rect?
A That is my understanding.
Q And the median for the State I believe, as shown
at the bottom of the page, is forty-two, point eight?
A Yes, forty-two, point eight.
Q So, in spite of the fact that Halifax County, at
least on what it has, taxes its people for schools about
the average of the State; it is certainly far below the
average in many of the categories of excellence, of per
formance, and certainly as evidenced by this profile of
significant factors in education?
A The rankings which we have gone through are con
sistently lower than the ranking as relates to local prop
erty taxes from schools as relate to property taxes for
all purposes.
Q Unfortunately some counties are just poorer than
others, isn’t that correct?
A Yes, some are poorer.
Q In the evaluation of taxes?
A Some could make a lot more effort than they make.
That doesn’t show in the rank.
Q And I take it, too, that some counties value their
property lower than it should be?
A Yes.
Q And so this is based on the valuation and the valu
ations vary?
A They do vary, yes.
Q From county to county?
A Yes, considerably.
Q Now, Dr. Phillips, getting back to the question that
I started—by the fact that you were opposed to the cre
ation of this Scotland Neck School Bill, that does not
mean to say that you feel that this Scotland Neck School
196
Administrative Unit cannot possibly improve the educa
tion of the children that will attend this school over
what those children had last year and the year before,
and in previous years, do you; you’re not saying that?
A My opposition to the creation of the unit was built
upon my belief and the inability of a school unit that
size to provide the kind or comprehensive program which
should be available to the youngsters. I made no com
parisons in terms of what they have now and what they
might have tomorrow.
Q But what you’re comparing is what you would like
to see happen in that area if there were sufficient funds
and money and buildings, and that type of thing, as com
pared to what Scotland Neck Administrative Unit is to
day— isn’t that basically what you are comparing the
Scotland Neck School Administrative Unit with, what—
on that basis rather than what it was last year and the
year before, and the year before that?
A My job by actual law requires of me to interpret
the needs of education in North Carolina and because
of this my concern would be in terms of what ought to
be in the way of educational quality.
Q But— and you took this stand against this thing to
some extent ignoring the practical aspects of obtaining
sufficient money from whatever source for this Halifax
County Unit to accomplish what you felt was in its best
interest in the long run, didn’t you?
A No. All we can do is recommend what should be
in the way of possibilities and this goes back to the
school planning division’s report itself, which projects the
needs, which is our role to play.
Q Do you have any— do you have any opinion as to
whether or not the funds could possibly be made avail
able _ for the long-range plan for the students in the im
mediate future or in the near future for implementation
of the long-range plan set forth in this department?
A You’re talking about State funds or local funds?
Q Any funds, from whatever source, would be avail
able, sufficient to accomplish that long-range program?
A My task is two-fold. One, to project as best we
can the total needs of this State in terms of a minimum
197
basic program, and we have to take into account where
youngsters are and what money is available. I have no
specific ability to assess the ability of that— local units
except in the statistics that are there, and have no con
trol over the local expenditures.
Q But even in the— even in the recommendations of
this department in that long-range program, even with
the passage of a rather substantial bond issue, which is
certainly indefinite, there was still a shortage of some
six or seven hundred thousand dollars— six hundred
thousand dollars with which to implement that program,
isn’t that correct?
A There was a proposal in this plan, how this six
hundred thousand dollars could be funded. In other
words, the potential was outlined. And, again, this was
our report.
Q Also this would require a county-wide bond issue
of substantial proportions?
A That’s correct.
Q And that is— would not only cover the physical
geographic area which is encompassed in the Halifax
County Administrative Unit, but it would also encom
pass a physical area that extended about the Weldon and
the Roanoke Rapids school administrative units, all three
of which were at the time in Halifax County political
subdivision, isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q Well, Dr. Phillips, as an educator do you feel that
there is a possibility that the school superintendent of
Scotland Neck School Administrative Unit can improve
the curriculum of the Scotland Neck School under this new
setup over what it has been for fifty years, or the last
fifty years, or at any time during the last fifty years?
A Which year are you talking about— fifty years
ago or last year?
Q Last year or any— the best year it’s had in the
last fifty.
A He will have a difficult time. I’m not sure that I
can honestly assess what he can or can’t do in compari
son with what is there today or was there fifty years ago.
198
The opposition to the creation came based upon our as
sessment of what we felt could be under a single school
system serving the entire county.
Q One of the things that— of course, there again the
people of Scotland Neck and the students of Scotland
Neck have very little control over whether the whole
county— Roanoke Rapids, or Weldon, and the Halifax
County units are going to consolidate, don’t they, politi
cally?
A Yes, they have their part.
Q But it is a very small part, isn’t it, of the total
population, of the total voting people?
A Yes, it is a small part.
Q As a matter of fact the property evaluation in the
Scotland Neck area is only about five percent of the total
of the county, isn’t that correct— somewhere in the neigh
borhood of that?
A I don’t have those figures. I would accept yours.
Q But it is a very small percentage?
A (Witness nods in the affirmative)
Q But you do know generally that as far as the vot
ing public in Halifax County— that Roanoke Rapids and
Weldon together have approximately fifty percent or a
little more than fifty percent of the voting population in
that entire county, isn’t that correct?
A This is my general understanding. I don’t know
the specifics statistically.
Q Well, now there are educators, professional edu
cators, in this State and other States who— who agree
that some decentralization of the school system ought to
take place, isn’t that correct?
A I have heard this discussed by a number, yes, and
you would have to define decentralization.
Q Well, certainly of the extremely large systems there
is a very substantial movement by some educators to de
centralize, put under local committees, local control, these
schools rather than have them run by a central office?
A No. No, this is not the pattern of North Carolina.
Q Now, isn’t Mr. James E. Allen, Jr., the United
States Commissioner of Education?
199
A He is not in North Carolina. You said in North
Carolina?
Q In North Carolina, or the United States?
A He is United States Commissioner and was a for
mer commissioner of the State of New York, yes.
Q And he is a rather competent professional school
man, isn’t he?
A He is a competent schoolman. He has differences
of opinion with people about control.
Q He has publicly stated, has he not, that decen
tralization, certainly in certain cases, is what he believes
is a proper approach to some of the problems which
exist?
A You want to talk about New York?
Q I’m just asking you hasn’t he made those state
ments?
A He’s make statements about that in relation to the
City of New York, yes.
Q And he also said that I am convinced that the best
schools are those where parents and other local people
have and take a real interest in what is being taught
and what is being hired?
A That is a very true statement. I subscribe to that
statement. That is different from a statement of control.
If you’re talking about physical control— you need to de
scribe what you’re asking me, because this is—
Q Well, aren’t there some problems which exist in a
— in a unit that is physically spread out as much as
fifty and sixty miles across and forty miles in north-
south depth; aren’t there some problems regardless of
how large the unit is, in numbers of students that exist,
merely because of the physical distances between schools?
A Yes, there are.
Q There are some definite problems?
A Yes. Yes.
Q And, obviously, in a county as big as Halifax
County some of the— some of these practical administra
tive problems, such as county teachers meetings, monthly
teachers meetings, things of that sort, are much more
of a problem than they could be in a compact city unit,
200
even though they need many more teachers and have
many more students, isn’t that correct?
A Geography is a problem, yes.
Q So at least to some extent, some of those problems,
although they may be minor, would be solved by—would
not certainly be as great a problem for Scotland Neck
School Administrative Unit as it would be if the Scot
land Neck Schools were in the Halifax County System
which it has been for several years; some of those minor
— distance—problems would be solved, wouldn’t they?
A Any problems of distance would be solved, yes.
Q Yes. And under the present setup, under the pres
ent law the local school— the local school advisory coun
cil have no— almost no authority at all in hiring teach
ers, in setting curricula, have almost no legal authority
or control over the local schools at all?
A They have no legal authority at all, certainly.
Q And in fact just some very few years ago they were
changed from district school committees to advisory coun
cils, isn’t that correct?
A No, not specifically. The local school units began
to move to single district rather than multi-district, but
they were not automatically changed from legal school
committees to _ advisory committees. This was opposition
of the local situation. In fact many local systems did
substitute because of their desire to involve local partici
pants; they didn’t substitute the advisory committee for
the originally legally constituted school committee, which
was a proponent for the employment of personnel, recom
mendation of maintenance and buildings.
Q Now, a number of the— a large number of recom
mendations in that Governor’s Commission Report, isn’t
that correct?
A Excuse me.
Q It was a rather sizeable field or area in which the
Governor’s Commission Report recommendations covered
isn’t that correct?
A Yes. I believe there were seventeen basic ques
tions which the Governor asked the committee to study.
Q And wouldn’t you say that the Legislature of North
Carolina, certainly in the history of the Legislature of
201
North Carolina, has been—tended towards being extreme
ly liberal in school matters, providing public education,
and in going along with educational aspects of the State
as compared to many other states in the Union, particu
larly the southern states—wouldn’t you say that’s true?
A It would have to be purely one single opinion. Our
Legislature has, because of the very nature, the degree
of State support in North Carolina has been very much
concerned about public education and has basically had
a good record in terms of support for the state-wide
program. There is still a lot to be done.
Q And yet, of course, there is a lot of new things
coming up; there’s always a lot of progress that needs
to be made every two years, isn’t that correct?
A Yes.
Q Now how many of the Governor’s— of this Gover
nor’s Commission Report recommendations were actually
passed into law by the Legislature of 1969?
A I do not have a specific accounting of legislation
which fulfilled the recommendations of the Governor’s
Committee. I would guess approximately forty percent
— thirty-five or forty percent of the Commission’s report
were directly implemented by the Legislature in some
form or another.
Q And, of course—
A Excuse me. Could I add one other thing?
Q Yes.
A A great deal of the recommendations did not re
quire legislative action. A good bit of it will be in re
sponse, or response to it will be through the State Board
of Education within its powers and the local boards of
education within their powers.
Q And, of course, one of the recommendations was
consolidation of units, smaller units, into larger, more
consolidated units, and in fact certain bills were intro
duced in the Legislature to accomplish this fact and it
was rather soundly defeated, isn’t that correct?
A Wait. You lost me on your question.
Q One of the recommendations which Mr. Kennedy
brought out in his examination of you, that was made
202
in the Governor’s Study Commission, was a consolidation
of present school administrative units, particularly the
smaller ones, units, into larger units, into larger units,
with some mention being made of optimum size or mini
mum size of five thousand students, isn’t that correct?
A The recommendation was that the basic unit for
school purposes be the county unit in North Carolina, with
a recommendation along with this, that legislation be
passed which would make it permissible for county units
to merge where two systems were too small to support
an adequate system. The legislation was passed to make
this permissible.
Q Permissible?
A Yeah. The recommendation was that the county
unit be the recognized school unit.
Q But there was also a bill introduced to require—
to eliminate all school administrative units under 7,500?
A No, sir. No, there was a bill which called for the
elimination of the general control funds provided by the
State Board of Education for units.
Q Which would in fact eliminate the unit?
A That would have to be an opinion.
Q Cut off their general control funds?
A Yeah.
Q And, of course, that was not passed?
A That was defeated, yes.
Q Now I believe also that Mr. Kennedy asked you if
you knew of any professional school people or groups— I
think that was the way he asked it—who were in favor
of the Scotland Neck School, passage of the Scotland Neck
School Bill, and I believe you said that you didn’t know
of any?
A That’s correct.
Q Well, now, Dr. Phillips, of course you know Mr.
Hugh Beam; who is he anyway?
A He is a legislator.
Q Who is— who has spent some odd thirty or forty
years as a professional schoolman in this State, isn’t
that correct?
A Superintendent of Marion city unit, yes.
203
Q And he was very much in favor of maintaining—
he was very much in favor of the Scotland Neck School
Bill; in fact, spoke on the House floor for it?
A He did that, yes.
Q And it is your opinion now that he is opposed to
the elimination of these small city units, isn’t that right?
A He expressed that opinion, yes.
Q And there are a number of others, school people in
this State, who are opposed to the elimination of the
small city units, isn’t that corerct?
A There are some school superintendents and school
board members in a number of the smaller units who
have strong feelings about the maintaining of their own
units, yes.
Q And wouldn’t you say that it is because— strike
that. And those people you have respect for their hon
esty and integrity, as well as their professional ability,
don’t you?
A I have no question about the honesty and integrity
of any of the schoolmen. I know I question the capa
bility of some, as well as some would question mine.
Q Now, Dr. Phillips, I believe you said in answer to
the last question that you felt that there were some school
people, some school superintendents, particularly, that
were opposed to eliminating some of the small school
administrative city units?
A Their own units, yes; in terms of that, yes.
Q Their own?
A Yes.
Q Now wouldn’t you say that there are any school
people that have something other than a selfish interest
in the position they take along that line?
A No, I didn’t say that. I say there were local school
superintendents who had concern about losing their own
units. I do not know of a single school man, that is,
except Superintendent Hugh Beam, who is a legislator’
who openly supported the creation of Scotland Neck Unit.
Q Now you know Mr. White, Mr. Vernon White, and
he is a former school superintendent, a principal?
A I didn’t know Mr. White was a former school prin
cipal. I didn’t know it.
204
Q And, of course, he was very much in favor of the
Scotland Neck School Unit; you know that?
A I knew he was a legislator. I did not know he was
a schoolman.
Q But now you’re not saying that the mere fact that
some school person, a professional schoolman in this State
differs with you in this respect to consolidation that he
is not capable; you’re not saying that?
A No. You’re putting words in my mouth now. Now
I answered the question as to whether or not I knew of
any specific schoolman or school organization in this State
that supported the Scotland Neck Bill, and I said: no.
Q Well, of course, most of them, the vast majority of
them were under your department, and when you opposed
it, that was going to keep ninety percent of them from
opening their mouth in favor of it, wasn’t it?
A That is your statement, not mine.
Q Don’t you agree with that?
A No. I am elected by the people. I work for the
people. I do not employ the school superintendents of
North Carolina.
Q But you work— they have to get funds from your
office; they also have to get approval for buildings, school
budgets, from your department?
A The State Board of Education. I am one member of
the State Board of Education.
Q But you are the chief member of that board, isn’t
that correct?
A No. No. No. I am a member ex officio of that board
and I am its secretary. There is a chairman of the State
Board of Education. No, I reject—you’re putting words
in my mouth.
Q But you do agree that what you say in some matter
of State policy in regards to consolidation, over not con
solidating, has some effect?
A I would hope so, yes.
Q Has some effect on every other professional school
man in the State, wouldn’t it?
A I would hope that my statements would have some
effect, yes.
205
Q And, as a matter of fact, very few professional
school people took a position one way or another, didn’t
they?
A I think that is correct, yes.
Q And, as a matter of fact, the only professional
schoolman who spoke against it was you?
A I am legally the State superintendent and by law
am charged with that responsibility.
Q When he asked you whether you knew any prof
essional school people who were for the bill or who were
publicly in favor of the bill, you said: no, but the truth
of the matter is the only person or professional school
group that opposed the bill publicly was your office, isn’t
that correct?
A To the best of my knowledge the only person who
appeared in direct opposition was my office, yes.
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q And, of course, you have explained why that was
true?
A (No answer)
Q Well, aren’t there a number of professional school
people in this State individually who you—who you know
who are not in favor of this idea of consolidating units?
A There is a minority of schoolmen in North Carolina
who do not generally favor the report of the Governor’s
Study Commission as it relates to the merger of school
units, and these in the main are the men who are involved
in some of the small— small units.
Q Well, those that are involved who know about smal
ler units, Mr. Dussenberry of Tryon, Mr. Talley of Roan
oke Rapids, Mr. Beam, formerly of Marion, and others
of this caliber who take the position that there is a
place for a small administrative unit, you don’t—you’re
not—you don’t say that these people are doing it only
to protect their selfish personal interest, are you?
A No. No, I respect—you have indicated three names.
I respect the two practicing superintendents on their own
school system and respect their honesty and integrity.
Q Well, do you have any opinion as to why they favor
the retention of those small city administrative units?
206
A No. They will have to answer that.
Q Sir?
A No. They will have to answer that. No. I can’t
speak for them.
Q But you do respect their honesty and their integrity
and their— certainly their experience and professional
knowledge in general?
A The two brackets that you mentioned, mentioned
specifically.
Q Yes.
A Yes. Excuse me. I think I ought to correct that
‘two’ to three practicing men—just Dussenberry and Tal
ley— ‘two’ is right.
Q Now, Dr. Phillips, there is not one school in Halifax
County that has been accredited with the Southern As
sociation of Colleges and Schools, is that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q There are some in the State that have been accred
ited?
A That’s correct. There is a school in Halifax County
— the Roanoke Rapids school.
Q But that is a city unit?
A Yes.
Q And wouldn’t you—wouldn’t you to some extent
agree that the ability of that—or those city units to raise
additional funds had something to do with— that is, Roan
oke Rapids—with their ability to become accredited?
A Funds had something to do with it, yes.
Q And, of course, they do raise funds in addition to
what funds the county gives them, and the State?
A They have a supplemental tax. I’m not sure what
it is. It is on record.
Q And, of course, Scotland Neck, under this new bill,
new law, will have a supplemental tax of approximately
fifty cents on the hundred dollar evaluation?
A That is my understanding.
Q Which is the maximum permitted by law?
A That’s right.
Q And, as a matter of fact, in this School Survey,
1963, which came out of this office just before you came
into office, says, on page 29, does it not, that probably
207
the one best single determinant in the quality program
of education is the financial factor; this is not to say
that money and quality education programs are synony
mous; only that many aspects depend largely on adequate
financial support?
A I would subscribe to that very strongly, yes.
Q And it further goes on to say that while the State
and federal monies assure the various school units in an
educational program, quality programs are more often
found where there are—where they are substantially sup
ported by local resources?
A It couldn’t be said better.
Q So to that extent, whatever great or small it is, the
Scotland Neck School Administrative Unit for the stu
dents that attended will have that possible opportunity of
a few more funds in order to improve its system, isn’t
that correct?
A I think that’s correct.
Q Now, Dr. Phillips, did you know that in approxi
mately 1965 the leadership of Scotland Neck, practically
the same people that visited your office earlier this year,
before this bill was introduced, introduced a somewhat
similar bill to create a school administrative unit, a sep
arate school administrative unit for the Scotland Neck
area?
A I’ve been told this, yes.
Q Did you know that our senator from Halifax Coun
ty in fact was the one that had that bill defeated, Senator
Julian Allsbrook?
A I’ve been told that, yes. I don’t know it for a fact.
Q And you have also heard that that bill was in fact
introduced by Mr. Gregory in 1965?
A No, I did not know that.
Q All right, sir. Well, now, also, Dr. Phillips, are you
aware that in 1966, in the spring, early spring of 1966,
that the representative of Scotland Neck area, representa
tive on the Halifax County School Board, together with
other members of the Halifax County School Board, com
municated with your office— then Dr. Carroll’s office, par
ticularly to Dr. Pearce, in the School Planning Division—
2U8
and requested permission to build a consolidated integrated
high school in the Scotland Neck area?
A No, I do not know that. I have not read this his
tory.
Q You are not familiar with that?
A No.
Q Not familiar with that at all?
A No.
Q Of course, the records of whatever negotiations—
whatever reasons that that was not done, whatever went
on, would be probably still in your office— at least Dr.
Pearce’s office?
A I assume they would be in the Board of Education’s
minutes if it came before the Board of Education, yes.
Q Would it be a fair statement to say, Dr. Phillips,
that— that even though you feel very strongly that school
administrative units should be four or five or six thousand
at least, that in this State, as the schools now exist, that
there are a number of city administrative units under
that that are fairly small, that is, three thousand and
below, that are better schools and turn out a better prod
uct than some of the larger school administrative units
— is that a fair statement?
A I would concede that, un-hunh.
MR. JOSEY: I think that’s all.
MR. K EN N ED Y : I’d like to go over a few things.
EXAMINATION BY MR. KENNEDY:
Q You mentioned, in response to one of Mr. Josey’s
questions, Dr. Phillips, I believe you testified before the
House Education Committee against the bill. How did
that come about; were you invited or were you asked to
speak, or how did that come about?
A The Chairman of the House Education Committee
asked if the State Board or the State Superintendent’s of
fice would like to be heard or the Chairman of the House
Education Committee asked if the State Board of Educa
tion and the State department would like to be heard.
Q Who was that, sir?
A Mr. Graham Tart was the chairman of the House
Education Committee.
209
Q Did he express an opinion in favor or against the
Scotland Neck bill?
A I don’t recall that Mr. Tart expressed his opinion
as the chairman of the committee.
Q Did the bill—was the bill reported out of that com
mittee?
A Excuse me. Was it—
Q Do you know whether it was reported?
A Yes, it was reported out.
Q Do you know whether there was any recommenda
tion made?
A It was reported out of the House Education Com
mittee without prejudice, as I recall. This is a matter of
record. I think this was the general thing.
Q Do you know whether or not the bill then went to
another committee in the House?
A It was my understanding that it was then sent to
the House Finance Committee.
Q Who was the chairman of that committee?
A Representative Thorne Gregory is the chairman of
the House committee.
Q Is he the— is he also the same man that introduced
the bill?
A I believe Mr. Thorne Gregory introduced the bill.
Q Was Mr. Gregory the man who met with you prior
to the introduction of the legislation?
A Yes.
Q Was there more than one meeting?
A I don’t believe he was here in this office with the
group that came. I did talk directly with him.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Did you just say that the Mayor—
A I did not keep actual records. Mr. Gregory was not
here in the meeting itself. Mr. Gregory was not here.
Q In response to one of Mr. Crew’s questions, in which
he asked you about a plan within the past few months
to build a consolidated high school in one area of Halifax
County, is that a—is the proposal to build that high school
one of the recommendations in the School Survey done by
the Division of School Planning?
210
A Yes. The basic proposal called for two senior high
schools as shown on page 14 of the report, in two basic
attendance areas. The interim plan called for three in
the transitional period. Really, I guess it was four alto
gether. But the one senior high school that I believe we
were taking about at that time was the initial one in that
upper area of the county.
Q Would that have effect on the education for the
children who would go to that school; would it improve
their educational opportunities or would it detract from
the educational opportunities?
A It is my opinion that it would improve it.
Q Mr. Josey asked about a bill in the Legislature to
cut off general control funds to the administrative units of
7500 pupils or less. Was such a — such an idea recom
mended by the Governor’s Study Commission?
A No.
Q Mr. Josey asked you questions about several tables
appearing in the ranking book, called the Ranking of
School Administrative Units, July 1968. Is it fair to
make any generalization from those questions that Mr.
Josey asked you about the general rankings in each table
that a small unit might fall into or a large unit might fall
into? Were you discussing in your answers to Mr. Josey’s
questions that all small units in the State, say, under
3,000 students would necessarily fall the same place where
the Tryon and the Tyrell County units fell, and all units
of ten thousand students would fall around where the
Halifax County Unit is located?
A No. I would not assume that, if I understand your
question correctly.
Q Do you understand my question?
A Yes. You better repeat it one more time so I do
understand it.
Q Can you draw any generalizations with respect to
each of those tables that Mr. Josey asked you about as to
whether all small units rank together in a block and all
units the size of Halifax County rank together somewhere
else on the scale?
A No, you cannot make any generalizations because
there are a number of other factors involved in each of
those.
211
Q Without getting specific to each table, are there
school systems of size, much larger than Halifax County,
that might rank above Tryon and Tyrrell County?
A Yes.
Q Of course, the ranking speaks for itse lf; you get the
specific facts from the pages of the publication itself,
can’t we?
A That’s correct.
Q With respect to those tables, all of those tables
that Mr. Josey asked you about, after you have answered
those questions for Mr. Josey do you have a different
professional opinion now about whether to support or not
to support a proposal such as the one from Scotland Neck
to create a small separate administrative unit?
A No.
Q I believe when Mr. Josey— although it may have
been Mr. Crew—you mentioned that you had a file on
Scotland Neck. Do you have a file on Scotland Neck?
A We have a file on every school system in North
Carolina in this office and other offices.
Q Do you have correspondence in that file relating to
this particular bill for the Scotland Neck system?
A Whatever has come into the Department in the way
of official documentation would be in that file or would
be in other appropriate school system files in the Depart
ment.
Q Are you familiar with the contents of that par
ticular file enough to describe in particular the contents
for us without having reference to the file itself?
A Not to the degree of being specific. I’m sure there
are statistics concerning studies made. There are clip
pings from the newspaper. There would be notes that
have been put in from time to time with the School Plan
ning Division, and things like this would be in the file
for Halifax County, and I assume they have set up a
Scotland Neck file now. We have a fairly complicated
filing system of administrative units. Anything that has
come in here would be in one of these two files.
Q Other than the files that contain routine records
required of all other administrative units, do you have
212
a personal file dealing with the bill to create the Scotland
Neck Unit?
A Oh, yes. It’s—you will have to really check with
my secretary to see how it is filed. I asked for the Scot
land Neck file. This is an accummulation of information
concerning the issue of legislation. Now whether it is
in the master file on Scotland Neck or something else
I would have to check with her.
Q Would you mind if we take a look at it?
A No. No.
Q In general does the Governor’s Study Commission
Report in the Index, roman pages— roman numeral eight,
nine, ten, eleven, twelve, and thirteen contain the names
of the Committee members assisting the Commission?
A Yes.
Q And are the professional titles of any of these mem
bers also listed by their names?
A They are.
Q In general are there a number of superintendents
and other professional educators on these various com
mittees?
A Yes.
Q And these are from the State of North Carolina?
A Yes.
(RECESS)
Q Dr. Phillips, thank you very much for getting your
personal files and your office files on Scotland Neck Dis
trict for us please. Do you have a— did you receive any
letters expressing opposition to the Scotland Neck bill?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell us who some of those letters were
from?
A One was a copy of a letter which was addressed to
Senator Julian Allsbrook from a Mr. Forgan Berry, Pres
ident of Halifax County School Masters Club. And an
other piece of correspondence which was addressed to me,
dated February 7, 1969, from Mr. Jim Casey, Jr. Route
1, Box 300 A, Scotland Neck, North Carolina.
Q Did you get any other type of correspondence?
A I believe that’s all.
213
Q Did you get any correspondence or materials from
the—
A This office received a copy of a statement made by
Dr. Salter J. Cochran of Weldon, North Carolina, repre
senting the Eastern Council on Community Affairs. This
was addresed to the Senate Finance Committee. This
copy was picked up at the committee hearing. It was not
sent to me by mail.
Q I see. Does that document have approximately five
printed pages, sir?
A Yes.
Q Is that dated February 19, 1969, at the top?
A Yes.
Q Did you get any other correspondence expressing
opposition?
A Also from the same Dr. Cochran in which he in
cluded a copy of a statement he had made before the Hali
fax County Board of Education. It is dated 24 January
1969.
Q Were these statements in general expressing favor
or disfavor of the Scotland Neck bill?
A The two letters were addressed to me, one, the let
ter—
MR. JOSEY: The 24 January I don’t think had any
thing to do with Scotland Neck. I don’t think so. I could
be wrong. I think that was a statement he made that had
to do with the integration plan.
MR. KENNEDY: Yes.
A Yes. This was a statement made to the Board and
we just received it as information. It concerned Halifax
County directly, yes.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Your last remarks—
A The one letter I received directly from Mr. Casey
was directed to me and was in opposition to the proposal.
The other correspondence was a copy of a letter addressed
to Senator Allsbrook, which expressed opposition.
Q The letter of 24 January 1969 from Dr. Cochran
did not?
A Did not pertain to Scotland Neck. Yes, that’s cor
rect.
214
Q Does your file also contain a one-page document
headed at the top “Statement Costs,” dash, “General
Control, Scotland Neck” ?
A Yes.
Q And the line near the bottom reads: total net costs,
and there are three figures under that. Can you tell us
generally what those figures mean, sir?
A This was an estimate of the general control costs
which would be involved in the creation of a new school
unit in Scotland Neck. It was prepared by our controller’s
office as information relating to the entire issue.
Q Can you tell us a little bit about what general con
trol costs involve?
A Well, in the main, it’s the State base salary for
the superintendent and then the minor figures, for travel;
clerical assistance is the other major item. In the main,
it is cost of administration of a school unit and this is a
basic line item in the State budgeting process.
Q What is the—what are the figures for the two-year
period shown on that page?
A Two thousand nine hundred sixty-eight is the esti
mated total net cost for the biennium.
Q Who bears that cost?
A The State bears this cost.
Q Is that cost over and above what the State would
normally have to pay if the Scotland Neck separate ad
ministrative unit had not been created?
A This is an estimate of the additional cost involved
in the creation of a new unit in a school system, yes, in a
new school count based on a thousand pupils in average
daily membership.
Q Mr. Josey asked a number of questions about Tyr
rell County School Administrative Unit. Was there a
survey done by the Division of School Planning recently
with respect to Tyrrell County?
A I’m not sure. I would assume that there has been
one. I would have to check our records to see.
Q I am showing you a document, some forty-five
pages; it reads on the cover, “Tyrrell County, 1968 School
Survey, North Carolina Department of Public Instruc
tion.” Is this a survey of the Tyrrell County School Sys
tem?
215
A Yes.
Q Are there recommendations by the survey commit
tee appearing on page eight?
A There are recommendations, yes.
Q Does recommendation number one, dash, general,
read as follows: The Committee recommended that the
Tyrrell County officials explore all the possibilities, ex
haust every effort in developing cooperative, immediate
and long-range plans for improvement with adjacent coun
ties?
A Yes.
MR. KENNEDY: That is the first sentence. Any
re-cross?
EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEY:
Q Now, Dr. Phillips, you said that you had a letter
expressing opposition to the Scotland Neck School bill
from a Forgan S. Berry. And I will ask you if in fact
he—he, of course, does not live in Scotland Neck, in the
town limits, and would not be a citizen of the area in
which this school is going to include, isn’t that correct?
A I do not know that for a fact. We filed the let
ter for information. It wasn’t even acknowledged. This
was a copy of a letter.
Q As a matter of fact, he is a principal of White
Oak School, which is in the southwestern section of the
County?
A I do not know that.
Q Some thirty, forty, fifty miles from Scotland Neck?
A I simply received that as a copy.
Q Dr. Salter J. Cochran is a citizen and resident of
Weldon?
A It showed that on his letter.
Q As a matter of fact, his children have always gone
to a city unit, which is Weldon?
A I just received it and put it in the file. I don’t
know anything about the letter. Didn’t acknowledge the
letter and put it in the file.
Q He was one of the citizens that opposed the creation
of the Scotland Neck Unit, isn’t that right?
A As I recall he appeared, yes.
216
Q And this fellow Jim Casey, Jr., from the address
on his letter it’s pretty obvious he lived outside of the
town limits; he lived at a rural route, isn’t that correct?
A I did not check his address. It is on his letter.
Q But you had no communication that you recall from
any person that lived inside the corporate limits of Scot
land Neck, black or white?
A This was all the correspondence.
Q Who opposed?
A Yes.
Q And, of course, this cost of twenty-two thousand
nine hundred sixty-eight dollars you say was an estimate,
and that is for a two-year period.
A Yes.
Q Of approximately eleven or twelve thousand a year?
A (Witness nods in the affirmative)
Q And isn’t it also true that whatever students that
ride— rode the school busses in 1969, 1968 and 1969, who
attended Scotland Neck School, that would— there would
be no school busses in the city unit in the 1969-1970 year—
isn’t that correct?
A Unless some child lived a mile and a half from the
unit to which he is assigned.
Q And so whatever decrease in school bus operation
would be— decrease the amount that the State had to pay
for that particular item for the Scotland Neck School Ad
ministrative Unit, isn’t that correct?
A This would be correct.
Q And so it would be— do you have any opinion as to
the cost of operation of ten school busses for one year, or
for a biennium for that matter?
A No, but I could get the figure for you.
Q But it could be considerable, couldn’t it?
A Depends on what you define ‘considerable’. Yes, it
is a cost factor.
Q It could very well aproach this twenty-two thousand
dollar figure, couldn’t it?
A I could get the figure. I do not know, honestly.
Q And, of course, you have to pay minimum wage to
the driver nowadays?
A That’s right.
217
MR. JOSEY: All right, sir.
EXAMINATION BY MR. CREW:
Q Doctor, I believe Halifax County has the fifth high
est number of Negro students in its school unit of any
county in the State, is that correct?
A It’s in that range, Mr. Crew. I don’t know specif
ically. The fifth? I would have to check the statistics.
Q I notice that the book, A Ranking of School Admin
istrative Units, that it lists Guilford, Greensboro, For
syth and Mecklenburg as being four counties who have a
higher number of Negroes in their units. All four of
those are in the western part of the State and not in the
east, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Dr. Phillips, does— do private schools cost more per
pupil, generally speaking, than the public schools for the
education of children?
A The reported cost per pupil of youngsters in pri
vate schools is less to the best of my knowledge than the
expenditure in public schools.
Q You say it is less in private schools?
A Yes.
Q I believe you testified yesterday that in your opin
ion the quality of education in the private schools that
have been created in the last two or three years as a re
sult of integration was perhaps inferior to that of the
public schools or some older private schools?
A The average would be less effective than the aver
age public school, yes, sir.
Q Dr. Phillips, in your opinion are the local school
boards more familiar with the local school problems and
needs and therefore in better position to chart the courses,
further courses, of the local administrative units?
A Basically, yes.
Q This deposition is being taken, Dr. Phillips, in con
nection with a case now pending in federal court with
respect to the Scotland Neck Unit. As you may know,
another action is now pending in another branch in fed
eral court respecting the Warren County Unit and Little
218
ton Unit. The Littleton-Lake Gaston Unit— a part of that
is in Halifax County and, of course, all of the Scotland
Neck Unit is in Halifax County. With that background
I ask you if in your opinion it would not be very difficult
for the Halifax County Board of Education to make any
concrete plans with respect to implementation of inte
gration until the question of the future of those two units
is finally decided?
A It will be difficult, yes.
MR. CREW: That’s all.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
MR. KENNEDY: I’d like to have the reporter mark
as Government’s Exhibit 7 a one-page document titled at
the top, “Estimated Cost,” hyphen, “General Control
Scotland Neck,” paren, “based on 1,000 in ADM,” close
paren, “On Present Standards.” Please mark as Govern
ment’s Exhibit 8 a one-page document dated at the top,
February 19, 1969, letter to Honorable Julian R. Alls-
brook, over the signature of Mr. Forgan S. Berry. Please
mark as Government’s Exhibit # 9 a one-page document,
handwriting on the front and the back, dated February
7, 1969, addressed to “Dear Mr. Phillips,” signed by
Jim Casey, Jr. Route 1, Box 300A, Scotland Neck.
It is stipulated and agreed by the parties that Gov
ernment’s Exhibits 7, 8, and 9 are copies of documents
from the file of Dr. A. Craig Phillips on the Scotland
Neck School System, and may be used in lieu of the orig
inals.
(FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT)
* * * *
W. HENRY OVERMAN
Being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. KENNEDY:
Q State your name, address, and occupation, please.
A W. Henry Overman, Superintendent of Schools of
Halifax County unit.
219
Q How long have you been superintendent?
A Since July first, 1957, of this unit.
Q And can you please tell us the, for the last year—
the year 1968-69— the number of schools in your school
system, please?
A There were 18.
Q And can you tell us the number of pupils by race
for each of these schools in the grades taught there?
A Now, you want the grand total?
Q For the whole system. First the pupils.
A 10,655, total.
Q And how many of those are Indians and how many
of those are Negroes?
A 102 Indian. 8,196 Negro.
Q Can you give us the total number of students by
race for each of the schools and the grade taught at
each school, please?
A You want to list each school separately?
Q Yes.
A All right. The Aurelian Springs School, 503 total.
Indian, 68. Negro, 118.
Q What are the grades, Mr. Overman, please?
A One through twelve.
Q Would you go through the rest of them, please?
A Just that information about each?
Q Yes.
A All right. The next school is the Bakers Elemen
tary School. 283. Total, 283 Negro. Grades one through
eight. Brawley High School, the total enrollment, 1106.
Total Negro, 1106. Grades one through twelve.
Q Excuse me, sir. Is that right on the grades?
A I beg your pardon. Grades one through six and
nine through twelve. Dawson Elementary School, total
enrolled, 459. Total Negro, 459. Grades one through
eight. Eastman High School, total, 952. Two Indian.
950 Negro. Grades one through twelve. The Enfield
Graded School, total enrolled, 579. Negro, 177.
Q And the difference would be for white children,
is that right?
A Yes, sir.
220
Q Is that true for the other schools where you gave
the total?
A Right. Do you want me to give the difference?
Q That’s right. Where there is a difference between
the total and the minority people, that difference is the
white, is that right?
A That’s right, where it is Indian and/or Negro.
Q Did we get the grades for Enfield?
A Grades one through twelve. Everetts School, total
478. Negro, 178.
Q Is that grades one through eight, Mr. Overman?
A One through eight. The Hollister Elementary
School, total, 331. Indian, 28. Negro, 303. Grades one
through eight. Inborden Elementary School, total 949.
Grades one through six and grade eight. Inborden High
School, total, 469. Negro, 469. Grades nine through
twelve. John Armstrong Chaloner, total, 680. Negro
680. Grades one through six and nine through twelve.
Mclver High School, Total 472. Negro 572. Grades
one through six and nine through twelve. Pittman Ele
mentary School, total 420. Negro, 420. Grades one
through eight. Scotland Neck High School, total, 979.
Negro, 193. Grades one through twelve. Thomas Shields
Elementary School, total 203. Negro, 203. Grades one
through eight. Tillery Chapel Elementary School, total,
272. Negro, 272. Grades one through eight. White
Oak Elementary School, total, 304. Two Indian. 320
Negro. Grades one through eight. William R. Davie
High School, total, 1161. Two Indian. 262 Negro.
Grades one through twelve.
Those were the school totals in 1968-69.
Q Which of those schools will the County not operate
this fall under your current plans?
A The Scotland Neck High School.
Q How about John Chaloner?
A John Chaloner will be operated under the present
plan.
Q It will be operated?
A Yes.
Q Are there any children who reside in the area of
jurisdiction of Halifax County School Board who are
221
not going to school or did not go to school for the 1968-
69 school year within that area?
A Yes. Some have gone to private schools.
Q Have any children gone to the Haliwa School in
Warren County?
A Yes.
Q What is the approximate number of those chil
dren?
A I do not have that information before me. I be
lieve 150 is the approximate.
Q Were those Indian students?
A Yes.
Q Are those the only ones you can think of outside
the private schools?
A Some have gone into the Littleton School in the
Warren County unit. The approximate number there, I
would say 140.
Q How many of those are white and how many Ne
gro?
A I do not have that information.
Q Is it more than half white?
A Yes.
Q Is the Littleton School in Warren County a pre
dominantly white school?
A Yes.
Q Can you give us the number of—total number of
teachers— the number of teachers in the various mi
nority groups for the 1968-69 school year, please?
A The total number of teachers, 455. Two are In
dian. 326 Negro.
Q Are the County schools organized on an eight-four
plan, grade plan?
A Yes, with some exceptions. There were four
schools where pupils were moved— three schools where
pupils were moved, whole grades, from all Negro schools
to predominantly white schools.
Q When was that done?
A That was done at the beginning of last school year.
Q And was that done at the urging of the Depart
ment of Justice?
A It was. And there was one school where seventh
grade only was moved to a predominantly white school.
222
This was a Negro school. So there were four, a total of
four, where pupils were moved at the beginning of last
school term year— school term.
Q Prior to July 1968 had the Halifax County School
System been operated under a freedom of choice plan,
pupil assignment?
A It had.
Q As of July first, 1968, what was the number of
Negro children in predominantly white schools?
A Now, this is information for 1967-68?
Q Yes, sir, please.
A And your question is the number of pupils—will
you repeat the question.
Q The number of Negro pupils in predominantly white
schools?
A The information I have here does not separate the
Negroes and the Indians. But the enrollment of pupils
other than the present race was 365.
Q As of July first, 1968, what was the number that
the Board anticipated would be— the number of minor
ity race pupils that would be in predominantly white
schools for the 1968-69 year?
A How many?
Q A year ago at this time how many did you antic
ipate would be in school in desegregated schools?
A Well, that is the number that I gave you from
the other report. 362 to 382, Indians and Negroes.
Q As a result of dealings with the Justice Depart
ment there was a considerable additional number of chil
dren, Negro children, assigned to the predomiantly white
schools for the 1968-69 year, is that right? After the
dealings with the Justice Department weren’t there a
considerable number of additional Negro children as
signed to the predominantly white schools for the 1968-
69 year?
A Yes.
Q Do you know the approximate additional number?
A I wanted to be sure that I understood your ques
tion, Mr.------
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
223
A I’m sorry. I will have to go back because I con
fused teachers with pupils in this number, total number
of predominantly white schools.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Mr. Overman, I am going to show
you a copy of a letter dated August 13, 1968, on sta
tionery of the Halifax County Schools, over the signa
ture of Mr. Claude Kitchin Josey, as attorney for the
Halifax County Board of Education, a letter addressed
to Mr. Stephen Poliak, assistant attorney, United States
Department of Justice, and ask you if you would read
sub-paragraph one and sub-paragraph two of paragraph
(a), and ask you if that doesn’t give the number of
additional Negro pupils in the grades who will be as
signed for the 1968-69 school year to predominantly
white schools in Halifax County?
A This means that at the beginning of the school
year there were 367 students transferred from seventh
and eighth grades of Negro schools. At one school there
was a transfer of 116 students transferred to a predom
inantly white school from an all Negro school. And I
must correct those figures that I gave you before. I
was using a part of a report that had to do with pro
fessional staff rather than students.
Q What are the corrected figures then?
A The total number of Negro, I mean, pupils other
than white race in predominantly white schools------
Q At the end of the 1967-68 school year.
A There were 365, 1967-68 school year. Now, as I
recall, you asked a question—how many were in the
white schools at the end of the 1968-69 school term?
Q Yes, sir.
A Now, there are more pupils to be added to these
transfers, and if I can find that I may have to add some
to get the total number.
Q Well, maybe— can you tell us approximately at the
end of school a month or so ago the number of Negro
children in predominantly white schools in Halifax
County?
A I believe there were near eight hundred.
Q All right, sir. This is a result of some free choice
and some involuntary assignment, is that correct?
224
A That’s correct.
Q Do you recall approximately when the school board,
or yourself, first officially heard from the Department
of Justice about a year ago?
A Around the first of July.
Q Just to refresh your memory, can I show you a
copy of a letter addressed to the Halifax County Board
of Education, two and a half page letter, over the signa
ture of Mr. Stephen J. Poliak. Would you read the date
that is typed in that, please?
A Yes. When I answered your question it was the
time you visited our office around the first of July. I
don’t recall the exact date.
Q What is the date of this letter?
A This is July 27, 1968.
Q Does that look like a copy or is that a copy of the
letter that you got from the Justice Department?
A Yes, it is.
Q Without going into the full content of the letter,
can you describe briefly what Mr. Poliak’s letter related
to the school board with reference to pupil desegregation?
MR. JOSEY: Now I object. I’d like for it to go on
the record. I don’t know if this is the way to get this
letter in, but, anyway, I object. I’d like for you to show
an objection.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Well, as a result of this letter,
Mr. Overman, was there— was there any publicity in the
local newspaper in Halifax County given to this letter
or the contents of it?
MR. JO SEY: I object to that.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Well, if you know whether por
tions of the letter or articles concerning the letter ap
peared in newspapers circulated in Halifax County?
MR. JOSEY: I object. (To Witness) You have to
answer. Go ahead.
MR. KENNEDY: (To Witness) Go ahead and an
swer.
A I think there was, yes. I can refer to those ar
ticles, if you think it is necessary, without too much
trouble.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) After receipt of the letter did
you and the Board Attorney, Mr. Josey, travel to Wash-
225
ington to negotiate with people in the Justice Depart
ment?
A Yes.
Q And what was the results of those negotiations,
sir?
A Well, this plan of transferring pupils from the all
Negro schools to the predominantly white schools was
offered.
Q Was there also some faculty transfers involved
with that, too?
A Yes. And the number of faculty members that
went with these grades that had been assigned to the
Negro schools, approximately 525 pupils and 18 teachers
were transferred.
Q Is this correct, that there—these are all the Ne
gro students and Negro teachers transferred?
A Yes.
Q Was there any other portion to the agreement be
tween the Justice Department and the County School
Board?
A Yes. The agreement was that another plan would
be submitted prior to on or about March 15, 1969, for
disestablishment of the dual school system in Halifax
County unit.
Q By what date?
A March 15 th.
Q That was the date of the plan. What date was the
conversation or the disestablishment of the dual school
system supposed to take effect?
A According to the agreement?
Q Yes, sir.
A By 1969-70.
Q That would be September of 1969?
A Yes.
Q Referring again to the letter dated August 13,
1968, on stationery of the Halifax County Board, over
the signature of your then attorney, Mr. Josey, will you
read sub-paragraph (b) of that letter, please?
MR. JOSEY: I object to his reading the letter into
the record.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
226
MR. JOSEY: I’d like to show an objection for the
record.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Would you read that paragraph,
please, sir?
A On or about March 15, 1969, the Board of Edu
cation of Halifax County, North Carolina, will present a
plan, and thereafter comply therewith, to your office,
which plan will provide for complete disestablishment of
the dual school system and complete compliance with the
provisions of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 at the begin
ning of the school year 1969-70.
MR. CREW : The School Board would likewise ob
ject to that introduction.
MR. KENNEDY: All right.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Is that substantially true, that is
what the agreement was------
A Yes.
Q ------ the paragraph that you just read, that portion
of the agreement?
MR. CREW : I object to that. I think the agreement
would stand for itself. His opinion is that is what the
agreement was.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Does that letter that you have
just read to us set out the agreement?
A Yes.
Q Did that letter or the contents thereof receive pub
licity in newspapers circulated in Halifax County?
A Yes.
Q Did you comply with the first part of the agree
ment and in fact transfer the number of Negro children
and number of Negro teachers to the predominantly
white schools as indicated?
A Yes, we did.
Q I will ask you to look over that letter and see if
there is any statement in there of any administrative
difficulties that would prevent the Halifax County School
Board from fully desegregating the school system------
MR. JOSEY: Object.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) ------ for the 1969-70 school year?
MR. JOSEY: Object. That wasn’t the purpose of
that letter.
MR. KENNEDY (To W itn ess): You can answer.
227
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
A There is one reference about administrative prob
lems involving the instituting of the 1968-69 portion of
the proposal.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Is there any statement in Mr.
Josey’s letter about administrative difficulties in com
plying with meeting the 1969-70 terminal date?
A Not in this letter.
Q All right, sir. Did you and Mr. Currin and Mr.
Josey meet with myself and other Justice Department
people in Washington in approximately February of
1969?
A Yes.
Q Was that in an effort to work out an acceptable
desegregation plan?
A It was.
Q And after that discussion did you submit to the
Justice Department a proposed desegregation plan?
A Yes.
Q Along with a map of the school district?
A Yes.
Q Showing the schools. Are there some lines drawn
on the map?
A Yes.
Q How many? How many areas are provided for
on the map?
A Five areas.
Q I’m going to hand you a two-page document, at
the top of which is the heading “Halifax County Schools,
Halifax, North Carolina, Halifax County Board of Edu
cation Desegregation Plan.” I ask you if you recognize
that, please?
A Yes, I do.
Q Is that the plan that was submitted around Feb
ruary 1969?
A It was.
Q This is part of the agreement that was worked out
in the Summer of 1968, just the plan that was sub
mitted as a result of what you promised in the Summer
of 1968?
A Right.
228
Q MR. K EN N ED Y : Will the Court Reporter mark
this as Government’s Exhibit # 1 to this deposition?
(MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION: Govt’s
Exhibit # 1 — Overman)
Q (Mr. Kennedy) And that sets forth the plan as
the School Board had proposed it at that time, is that
correct?
A That’s correct.
Q Did this plan provide for a combination of some
geographic zoning and some free choice basically?
A And some pairing of grades.
Q And some pairing of grades, yes, sir. Were there
zone lines drawn all over the County pursuant to that
plan?
A Zone lines?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q Did you know at that time the number of white
and Negro children residing in each of the zone lines
or each of the zones?
A Approximately, yes.
Q In each of the sub-zones?
A Yes.
Q Do you have that information now?
A I do not have that information before me, unless
it is on this map.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
A I do not have the division between races.
Q On the races, but you have that information, is
that right?
A Yes.
Q Did you have it at the time the plan was pro
posed? Did you have the information for the number
of children by race for each of the zones?
A As nearly as we could get it, yes.
Q How was that compiled?
A By a spot map of where children lived.
Q Do you have those spot maps?
A I do not have them with me.
229
Q Do you have them in your control at the office?
A I think they can be located, yes.
Q You retained them?
A Yes.
Q Was it— was that particular plan accepted or re
jected?
A It was rejected.
Q What did the Board do then about a pupil assign
ment plan?
A The Board passed a motion that they would go to
freedom of choice for the next school year. Now, if you
would like the full motion, I will be glad to get that from
the minutes.
Q Thank you for offering. I don’t think that will be
necessary at the time. How would that Board resolu
tion affect the Negro children who had been involun
tarily transferred prior to opening of the 1968-69 school
year?
A You say how would it or how did it?
Q Yes, sir, how would it?
A Well, many of them on a freedom of choice—we
did have the freedom of choice procedure— elected to go
back to the school from which they were originally trans
ferred.
Q Have you had a freedom of choice period for the
coming year, sir?
A We have.
Q Do you know how many Negro children have chosen
to go to predominantly white schools for the coming year?
A Yes.
Q Is that the—what does that include? . . . Excuse
me. Can you give me the figure, please?
A All right. Just a moment. The total number of
forms returned was 10,065. It represented 98% of the
choice forms expected at that time. This was the May
fifth report.
Q Do you know how many of those are Negro chil
dren and how many are white children?
A Your question is: how many?
Q How many Negro children chose to attend the pre
dominantly white schools for the coming year?
230
A I don’t have it tabulated in that form.
Q Do you know by each individual school, sir?
A I beg your pardon.
Q Do you know the figure for each school?
A It hasn’t been totalled. I will have to give you
the total number. You want them by schools or shall
we take the time to total?
Q If you have them by school, yes, sir.
A Well, I will need an adding machine here to do it
quickly.
Q Do I understand that you do not have the total
number of Negro children choosing for each of the white
schools?
A I do not have that sheet before me. It may be
available.
Q Do you have figures for the number of Negro chil
dren choosing for each grade of each predominantly
white school?
A Some of these will have to be totalled. I have the
information here but it has not been totalled. If you
will give me a minute I think I can have it.
Q All right, sir.
A Aurelian Springs School, 14 Negro, 74 Indian, and
total, 354. The white would be the difference between
these figures.
Q All right, sir. If you will go to the next one.
A Would you like me to read all of the schools or
just those where they------
Q No, sir, just the number of Negroes choosing the
predominantly white schools.
A In the Eastman School—no, that is not predom
inantly white. Excuse me. William R. Davie School,
196 Negro, two Indian.
Q What was the number, number of students there?
Do you have the total?
A Yes. 973. In the Enfield High School, Enfield
Graded School, 91 Negro, total 403. And they are the
three predominantly white schools that are in our unit
at the present time.
Q What is the Scotland Neck?
A I do not have the figures for Scotland Neck since
it was not a part of our unit at the time.
231
Q Mr. Overman, when you mentioned Enfield School,
were you referring to the full twelve grades at that
school?
A Yes, that’s right.
Q But it is called the Enfield Graded School?
A Just by name.
Q But it means it has twelve grades?
A It is a union school, all twelve grades.
Q Has the total number of Negro children in the
school system changed more than five percent from the
total of Negro children in the school system in the past
year?
A Now, are you comparing 1968-69 with the regis
tration or the free choice forms for 1969-70?
A Yes, sir.
A Yes. It is fewer. We had 10,386 at the end of
the seventh month.
Q That is, total pupils?
A That’s right.
Q Both white and Negro?
A Right. And that does include the Scotland Neck
pupils. And the 10,065 also included the freedom of
choice in Scotland Neck.
Q So it was included in the freedom of choice?
A That’s right, the total figure was, but I do not have
the breakdown between the races.
Q At Scotland Neck?
A That’s right.
Q Can we get, later on, after we take a break, the
total number of white and Negro children that sub
mitted choice forms for the coming year, sir?
A I have that here.
Q You have the totals?
A Yes, which includes Scotland Neck.
Q Can you give us those totals, including Scotland
Neck, please?
A ’ White, 2233. Negro, 7583. Indian, 249. Now
this was a total sheet, and I said I did not have the
breakdown of Scotland Neck. I do have in the total
sheet if you would like to have that, too.
Q For Scotland Neck?
232
A Yes, sir. 747 white. 262 Negro.
Q Under freedom of choice for any year in Halifax
County School System has any white children ever chosen
to attend a predominantly Negro school?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Do you have any reason to believe that in the next
year or two that there will be any white children choos
ing predominantly Negro schools under any freedom of
choice plan for Halifax County?
A I have heard that there may be, but I do not have
definite information.
Q Are there other school systems in Halifax County
in addition to the school system run by the Halifax
County Board of Education------
A Yes. Two.
Q Outside of the Scotland Neck system. Can you
name these two?
A The Welden City Administrative Unit and the
Roanoke Rapids City Administrative Unit. And the Lit-
tleton-Lake Gaston Unit takes in a part of Halifax
County. The vote on that unit has not been cast— elec
tion has not been held for that unit, so I don’t suppose
you can say it has been established yet.
Q The Act of the State Legislature setting up the
Littleton-Lake Gaston system was passed subsequent to
the Act of the Legislature setting up the Scotland Neck
Administrative Unit, isn’t that true?
A Yes.
Q Were either of— the Welden City Unit or the
Roanoke Rapids City Unit created since you have been
associated with the Halifax County Board of Education?
A No. They were created before that time.
Q Do you know when they were created?
A I do not.
Q Do you know the approximate percentage of Ne
gro pupils in the Roanoke Rapids City System?
A I do not have the information.
Q Going back for a moment to the rejection by the
Justice Department in approximately February of 1969
with respect to the plan proposed by the Halifax County
233
School Board, was that rejection given publicity in news
papers circulated in Halifax County?
A It was through Board of Education action, yes,
that the plan was not— was not approved by the Justice
Department. The Board subsequently had made a mo
tion to go to freedom of choice.
Q Now at the Town of Scotland Neck how many
schools are located within the town boundary lines?
A Now, are you speaking of school location or school
buildings on one location? Are you------
Q Just the number of schools that are located inside
of or in whole or in part?
A One school.
Q Is that the Scotland Neck High School?
A The Scotland Neck High School.
Q And is it true there is a building that has been
operated with that main Scotland Neck campus located
outside of the Town?
A Yes.
Q And that is called the Junior High School Build
ing?
A Yes.
Q And this past year the grades seven through eight
were taught there, is that right?
A That’s right.
Q And where is the Brawley School located with re
spect to the town boundary lines of Scotland Neck?
A Just outside of the city boundary lines.
Q How far outside, do you know, sir?
A Well, I think the street that goes along the front
of Brawley School is the town boundary lines. I believe
that is correct.
Q So it is right on the------
A Yes.
Q ------ right on the edge of the town?
A Yes.
Q Did the State—the North Carolina Department of
Public Instruction publish a school survey for the Halifax
County Schools recently?
A Yes.
Q Was this in approximately September of 1968?
234
A Yes, it was. It was when the survey was made.
The report of the survey was delivered later.
Q When was that delivered, sir?
A I believe it was in the December— at this Decem
ber Board of Education meeting.
Q Were members of the Board of Education made
aware of the existence of the survey at that time?
A (No answer)
Q I say, the copies were distributed to them at the
Board meeting?
A Yes.
Q Have you examined the contents of that survey
yourself?
A Sir?
Q Have you examined the contents of the survey?
A Yes.
Q Are the figures in there substantially correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you know of any mistakes in the survey with
respect to the figures therein?
A No.
Q How often does the Board of Education meet?
A Regularly once a month, and then such call meet
ings as they deem necessary.
Q Within the past two years have there been sug
gestions made to the Board of Education at its meetings
for possible improvements, physical improvements, at
either the Scotland Neck School or the Brawley School?
A Yes.
Q At which school, sir? Both of them?
A Repeat that question.
Q Within the past two years have there been sug
gestions made for the improvement of its physical plant—
let’s take the Scotland Neck School first?
A Now the report called for consolidation, a long-
range plan.
Q Let’s say outside of this report. Say, from citi
zens or citizen groups or school officials, have there been
suggestions for improvement of the Scotland Neck School?
A In the last two years?
Q Yes.
235
A Oh, yes. Yes.
Q What were the nature of some of those sugges
tions?
A Well, I don’t know whether it’s been within the
last two years or not, but there have been requests for a
new school to replace some of the older buildings at the
Scotland Neck Location. I wouldn’t say it’s been within
the last two years. Of course, every year that we make
budgets then the requests come before the Board of
Education. And this has been a request for many years.
Q Have requests been made within the past few years
for physical improvements at any of the other schools
in the County?
A Some renovations, you’re speaking of?
Q Any improvements, renovations, new buildings, ad
ditional buildings at any other schools?
A Well, there has been the request that four high
schools be consolidated into one comprehensive unit. And
they are in what was called the northwest part of the
County.
Q Who made that request, sir?
A Well, this request—well, the Board of Education
asked Dr. J. L. Pearce of the Division of School Plan
ning, the person who wrote this report that you are
speaking of, to meet with the Board to discuss the con
solidation of these four high schools and to make what
ever recommendations necessary for the existing schools,
high schools, in the County. And so this has been through
a conference with Dr. Pearce, the director of the Divi
sion of School Planning.
Q When was that request made to Dr. Pearce, sir?
A You are speaking now of a request for approval of
the State Board of Education?
Q Do I understand that someone on behalf of the
Halifax County Board went to Dr. Pearce to discuss
with him consolidation of four high schools in the north
west part of the County?
A Oh, yes. Yes.
Q When did that take place?
A I don’t know the approximate date. I think Dr.
Pearce met with us after I had talked with him about
236
this, and he met with the Board of Education on— I’d
have to have the minute book I suppose. It must have
been the May meeting.
Q 1969?
A Yes. Yes, I think I am right there. And then
since that time a request has been made for the approval
of the construction of a school, new high school, that
would consolidate four existing smaller schools in that
area.
Q Which four schools were they, sir?
A The John Armstrong Chaloner School, the William
R. Davie School, the Aurelian Springs School, and the
Mclver School.
Q Is that similar to a suggestion that is contained in
the 1968 Halifax County School Survey?
A Well, it is similar to that. Not exactly the boun
dary lines drawn there, for a long-range plan. I might
add that this request was made so it could be located
that it might serve the—what is known as the south
western section of the County, too, which would go fur
ther toward Enfield. Now this request also included
some improvements and additions to the Brawley High
School, the Inborden School, the Eastman School, and
also the Enfield School— four other schools.
Q Can you tell us the number of teachers by race
during the past year at the Scotland Neck School, please?
MR. JOSEY: I’m sorry. What was that question,
please?
MR. K EN N ED Y : The number of teachers by race at
the Scotland Neck School for the 1968-69 school year.
A 46 white and 10 Negro.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Does that figure of 46 include one
instructional staff member and one principal?
A I’m sorry. That column includes both. It includes
both— it’s 36 white and 10 Negro.
Q Does that figure of 36 include one principal and
one instructional staff member?
A The 36 includes one principal and all of the other
instructional staff members by grades. If you would
like to have those by grades?
Q No, sir. The number of white and Negro teachers
at the Brawley School for the 1968-69 school year, please?
237
A The total number is 40, which includes the prin
cipal. And the number of Negroes, 40.
Q There were no white teachers or instructional staff
at the Brawley School this past year?
A No.
Q I hand you a document and ask you to identify this,
please, and state what this is?
A A School Survey by the North Carolina Depart
ment of Public Instruction for the Halifax County School
Unit.
Q Is that the one that you told us was published in
December 1968?
A Yes.
Q Would you please turn to page 53, and does— on
page 53 is there a table of curriculum for the various
high schools in the County listed?
A Yes.
Q That is Table 26?
A Correct.
Q Can you read the paragraph at the top of the page,
please, into the record?
A “Secondary Curriculum Course Offerings. Table
26 shows the number of courses offered at each sec
ondary school in the County unit. It is generally agreed
that a secondary school should be large enough to provide
a minimum of three times as many courses as the school
requires for graduation. In North Carolina a minimum
of 16 units is required for graduation; consequently all
high schools in North Carolina should strive to offer a
minimum of 48 courses.”
Q Under that would you read please the total num
ber of courses for the Brawley School?
A 44.
Q The total number of courses for the Scoltand Neck
High School, please?
A 39.
Q And the number of courses for the Aurelian
Springs School?
A 35.
Q That is a predominantly white school, isn’t it?
A It is.
238
Q And the Enfield School?
A 32.
Q Is that a predominantly white school, sir?
A Yes.
Q And the William R. Davie School, the total num
ber?
A 36.
Q That is also a predominantly white school, isn’t it?
A It is.
Q Is it true that you have read into the record the
total number of courses for all four predominantly white
high schools in the school system?
A Yes. And I shall add that it was the information
from the 1967-68 school year, not the 1968-69.
Q Do you have those total number of courses for the
past year, sir, for the 1968-69 year?
A Do you have that information? . . . Could we delay
that for a few minutes.
Q Certainly.
A It is being obtained.
Q Certainly. Are these figures correct for that 1967-
68 year, sir?
A Yes.
Q Now in the meantime we can go on with some
other matters. Are both the Scotland Neck and the
Brawley High Schools accredited with the State of North
Carolina, sir?
A Yes.
Q Are either of them accredited with the Southern
Association?
A No.
Q Now you have already told us that the Scotland
Neck school system, I believe, has been created by act of
the Legislature and for vote of the people. Do you know
when that school system will operate its school, when it
will begin to operate those schools?
A July first. You mean the actual school term?
Q Yes, sir. Do you know when that is?
A I do not know the calendar for the Scotland Neck
school system.
239
Q Will the Scotland Neck City System begin to oper
ate its schools sometime this fall?
A So far as I know, yes, sir.
Q Now was the bill that set up the Scotland Neck
City Administrative Unit introduced in the Legislature
during 1969, sir?
A Yes.
Q When did you first become aware that there was
going to be an effort made to create a city administra
tive unit in Scotland Neck?
A About the time that the Legislature met in Jan
uary— a little earlier than that— that there would be
some— an effort.
Q Were you approached by anybody ahead of that
time for your opinion as to the educational advantages
of a separate city school system for Scotland Neck?
A I don’t quite understand your question, because
many people have talked to me about that from time to
time in general conversation. Now do you have refer
ence to any specific contact?
Q Prior to the time the bill was introduced in the
Legislature did anyone ask you whether a separate school
system for Scotland Neck would improve the schools in
Scotland Neck?
MR. JOSEY: I object to that question, object to the
question about what anybody asked him about.
MR. KENNEDY (To Witness) : You can answer.
MR. JOSEY: Go ahead and answer.
A Well, I have been conferred with by a number of
people in regard to it, yes.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Was this prior to the time it was
introduced by the Legislature?
A It was before it was introduced before the Legis
lature.
Q When was that, sir?
A Well, I would say sometime in December.
Q Who were those people?
A I don’t recall. I don’t know just what reference
you have, because a number of people have asked me
about it.
240
Q Did you or anybody connected— employed by the
County School Board participate in a study of the edu
cational benefits for a separate school system for Scot
land Neck?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Do you know whether there was any study done by
professional educators as to whether the separate school
system for Scotland Neck would be or would provide
educational improvements?
A No.
Q Do you know whether non-educators made such a
survey?
A No, I do not.
Q With respect to the discussions you have had for a
separate school system in Scotland Neck what are the
reasons given for a separate school system in Scotland
Neck as far as you know?
MR. JOSEY: Objection.
MR. CREW: We will object. I don’t see how he
knows, how these answers are necessarily within his
knowledge.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Let me ask him if he knows.
A No, I do not. It is possible I could answer that
with a supplemental tax levy that there would be more
money per child in the Scotland Neck Unit than there
would be in the County Unit, and outside of that I can
not answer.
Q Does the December 1968 Halifax County School
Survey done by the State Educational officials recommend
any separate school system for any area of the Halifax
County School Administrative Unit?
A No.
Q Does it in fact recommend consolidation of high
schools as an interim measure?
A Consolidation of high schools within the unit of
Halifax County?
Q Yes.
A It does as a long-range plan to schools, and then
an interim plan calls for other arrangements.
Q I hand you again the document that you have
previously identified as the 1968 survey, and ask you if
241
on page eight, the top paragraph— does that contain the
long-range recommendation by the survey, sir?
A Yes.
Q Will you read that first paragraph, please?
MR. JOSEY: Objection.
MR. KENNEDY: What is your objection?
MR. JOSEY: I object.
MR. K EN N ED Y : Is this something that I could
cure?
MR. JOSEY: No. I don’t think it is up to him to
read into the record a report by others that he is not
necessarily in agreement with and he has no knowledge,
but to read out of the book—but, anyway, I think I could
agree—
MR. CREW: I—we also object. I think the survey
speaks for itself.
MR. JOSEY: We have no objection to entering the
whole book.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Do you have a copy of this?
A Yes I do.
MR. KENNEDY: All right, we will just put it in
the record.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
MR. K EN N ED Y : You stipulate that this is a copy?
MR. JOSEY: Yes.
MR. KENNEDY: The parties through their counsel
stipulate that the document which is to be marked Gov
ernment’s Exhibit # 2 is a copy of the School Survey for
the Halifax County Administrative Unit which was pub
lished by the North Carolina Department of Public In
struction.
(MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION)
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Mr. Overman, you have testified
that you are generally familiar with the contents of the
1968 County School Survey?
A Yes.
Q Are you also familiar with the recommendations by
interim and long-range made by this survey team?
A Yes.
242
Q Are the long-range and interim recommendations—
are there administrative difficulties which would prevent
you from adopting and implementing those suggestions?
A Now, are you speaking of the long-range?
Q Well, let’s take the intermediate range first, please.
A Yes. There are some financial difficulties in car
rying out the whole—all of the recommendations.
Q What are those, sir? Just generally.
A Well, having all of the money to do the work that
needs to be done at one time.
Q I direct your attention to page 13 of the exhibit.
A Yes.
Q Is it stated there that the committee recommends
a maximum bond issue of approximately four million
dollars?
A Yes.
Q Is that the kind of financial problem that you
foresee?
A That’s correct.
Q Are there other large financial problems in addi- /
tion to that one?
A Well, having current capital outlay at levies an
nually— not having sufficient amount would be a problem,
yes.
Q Could you explain that a little more fully, please,
about the current capital outlays.
A I am talking about the capital outlay budget as
adopted by the Board of County Commissioners annually.
We request more funds each year than the commission
is able to supply, and with the building plans, renova
tions, and additions that are called for, it would be—
take a number of years to accumulate the sufficient
money to do it. And------
Q Have your remarks been directed to the long-range
recommendations, that is, for— to have just two high
schools, two high schools?
A That is part of it, yes. And also some recommen
dations that have been made for the interim plan.
Q Are those made on pages 15 and 16, with a map on
page 17?
A Yes.
243
Q Did members of your office cooperate and partic
ipate with the survey team and provide them with the
facts and the figures that they needed?
A Yes.
Q To come up with their conclusions?
A Yes.
Q Are the conclusions or the recommendation of the
interim plan found on page 15 and 16, are there any
administrative difficulties standing in the way of adopt
ing and implementing those recommendations?
A Well, not as much as there would be for the long-
range plan, of course, because it would call for two new
consolidated high schools.
Q The long-range plan does that?
A Yes, that’s right.
Q What are the administrative difficulties, if any,
which would prevent the School Board from adopting
the recommendations of the interim plan?
A Well, there would still be a need for funds that
could not be supplied all in one year with our current
capital outlay budget.
Q Is money from the capital outlay budget used for—
to construct permanent installations?
A Yes, partly. And for renovations and additions.
Q Well, can you get specific—what schools and what
renovations and what additions would be necessary under
the interim plan that you would not be able to pay for
or that you would have difficulty paying for?
A Well, in District 1, on page 15, the Note here: It
is estimated the four additional teaching stations will be
needed for the total district. Temporary spaces could be
provided there. On page 16, it calls for 16 additional
teaching stations and the committee suggests that that
be temporary teaching stations. That is the note at the
top of the page. District 3, approximately 12 addi
tional teaching spaces will be needed and there it also
recommends temporary space or mobile units to provide
these additional spaces. District 4, it says it will be
sufficient to house all pupils for the interim plan. Now,
this is assuming that we have enough of the mobile units
to do it. But some other things that would require ren
244
ovations really to carry on a good high school program.
For example, having laboratory space for sciences, and
having vocational laboratory spaces, and such as that,
which is not spelled out herein particular, but would
require more money to have satisfactory learning con
ditions where the school— all the children come into one
school in a high school program.
Q Well, with respect------
A The interim plan can be provided for with less
finances, of course, than the long-range plan.
Q Well, with respect to the mobile teaching stations,
you referred to on District 1 four teaching stations, Dis
trict 2, 16—that is 20— and District 3, 12—that is 32.
How many mobile classrooms did the County have in
1968-69?
A Well, we have 52 that we can use for instructional
spaces, but these units would not be suitable for some
teaching areas, particularly in high school. This could
be a temporary plan, it is true, without too much ex
pense, but it calls for the—having more children in some
of the schools in the high school department than they
have had before, and I would say it would not be ade
quate without some renovations and additions.
Q Is the County school system planning to adopt the
interim plan, having made a------
A Not entirely. The system now is planning to con
solidate if it can get— well, the definite plans in one unit
for this school that I spoke about earlier to consolidate
four high schcols.
Q Does that require building a completely new school?
A Yes. And this, of course, would be partially a part
of the long-range building plan.
Q Do you have the money available to do that now?
A Have a part of it avaialble. Possibly enough for
one unit of it. It is estimated that the entire cost of
this high school would be a million, eight hundred thou
sand dollars. We feel that approximately nine hundred
thousand of it might be available with State building
bond money and current capital outlay money.
Q Where would you get the other nine hundred thou
sand dollars?
245
A Well, that would have to be secured at a later
date with current capital outlay. The possibility of some
federal funds. I can’t guarantee that by any means.
There is a possibility of a bond issue if all units in the
County would participate in it and work for it, but this
is something that I can’t say. When I say units I mean
administrative units.
Q Has the Board of Education rejected the school
survey or any part of it?
A No.
Q Are there—
A I would say this, that in presenting the plan to the
Justice Department in February, it did not carry out
exactly the way it was recommended by the school sur
vey team.
Q That was the recommendation that was going to
utilize a combination of geographic zoning, some pairing,
and some zone assignment and some free choice?
A Yes.
Q Are there advisory councils for each individual
school?
A For groups of schools within the administrative
unit. We have four advisory councils in four areas of
the County administrative unit.
Q What is the name of the advisory committee for
the area that includes the Scotland Neck and the Braw-
ley Schools?
A Well, we call it Number Three.
Q And members of that committee this past year
made recommendations or requests for improvements in
the Soctland Neck schools?
A Within the past year?
Q Yes, sir.
A I don’t recall just the specific recommendation, if
they have made that.
Q Have there been any recommendations by it far
ther back than a year?
A Oh, yes.
Q Do you know what some of those recommendations
were?
246
A It’s an annual recommendation for replacement of
some of the buildings in the Scotland Neck Administra
tive Unit. Now, of course, it was a part of the County-
unit.
Q The 1968 County survey published the results of
some of the inspection of the physical plants of these
schools, is that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q And the observation as to the adequacy or inade
quacy of a number of the classrooms in these schools, is
that right?
A They have, yes.
Q And these observations were made with respect to
all the schools in the system, is that right?
A Yes.
Q And, in general, they found some school buildings
or some classroom buildings at the Scotland Neck School
were below standard?
A Yes.
Q And there were other schools, other predominantly
white schools of the County, where they found some class
rooms below standard, is that true?
A Yes.
Q And at some of the predominantly Negro schools
some of the classrooms were below standard, is that cor
rect?
A Yes.
Q So that below standard classrooms existed in
schools in Scotland Neck and the predominantly Negro
schools?
A I didn’t get your full question.
Q Below standard classrooms existed at the predomi
nantly white schools in Scotland Neck as well as the
predominantly Negro schools?
A Yes, there were some in each.
Q Are you prepared now to give us the number of
courses, the total number of courses at each high school
for the 1968-69 school year?
A Yes, I have that information.
Q Can you give us the name of the school and the
total number of courses, please, for 1968-69?
247
A Aurelian Springs—this is high school, of course—
35 courses. The Brawley School, 45. Eastman, 39. En
field, 33. Inborden, 33. Mclver, 31. Davie, 36. Scotland
Neck, 39. And Armstrong Chaloner, 28.
Q Do you have information—let me ask the question
this way: did your office or people working with your
office conduct a survey to determine the number of white
and Negro children residing in each of the geographic
areas which appeared on the map submitted along with
the proposed desegregation plan in February 1969?
A Yes, that is, it showed— it was not accurate, but
an estimate of the number, yes.
Q Do you have those figures with you now?
A No, I do not. I’m going to have to refer to an
other map. I didn’t have time to look that up.
Q We will wait for that. Does— do you know of the
existence of another survey done in the Spring of 1969
to identify the number of white and Negro children in
the Scotland Neck area which would show how many
reside within the town and how many without, outside
the town?
A Yes.
Q Do you have the results of that?
A All right. This information is for those that live
within the corporate limits of Scotland Neck as deter
mined by the survey. What breakdown would you like
on this?
Q Well—
A Just total white and total Negro?
Q Yes, sir.
A And these were in school at Scotland Neck at the
time this survey was conducted.
Q All right, sir.
A 399 white and 296 Negro, and the total pupils, 695.
Q How about the number of pupils who were going to
school in the Scotland Neck area that lived outside of the
Town of Scotland Neck?
A Well , it would be the difference between the 695
and the actual enrollment of the Scotland Neck school,
and I don’t know that I have a breakdown by race on
that.
248
Q You read it to us, I believe, at the first part of the
deposition— the total numbers?
A Well, that was total, including the Scotland Neck
Town—the Town of Scotland Neck.
Q Right. So, if we would take that figure and sub
tract from it the figure that you have just given us,
would that give us the number?
A I don’t know how many living outside of Scotland
Neck were white and how many were Negro. I can give
you the difference there. The enrollment was six hun
dred— I mean nine hundred—
Q Let me clarify one thing. The 399 whites and the
296 Negroes— those are the number of pupils who attend
ed county schools for the 1968-69 school year who live
in the town limits of Scotland Neck, is that correct?
A That’s right.
Q Do you know where those students went to school
last year?
A Some of them went to Brawley School and some
went to Scotland Neck.
Q Did any of the white children go to Brawley
School?
A No.
Q So all the white children, all 399, went to Scot
land Neck?
A Yes.
Q And some of the 296 Negroes went to Brawley?
A Yes.
Q Do you know how many?
A No, I do not know. We have that information com
piled.
Q Well, then, at least the number of white children
attending Scotland Neck in excess of 399 live outside the
City of Scotland Neck, is that right?
A No. A number of those, lived outside of Scotland
Neck, were Negroes.
Q Well, you told us that the number of white children
in schools who live in Scotland Neck, which is 399— is
that right?
A Right.
249
Q And then we know the total number of white chil
dren at the Scotland Neck School, don’t we?
A Yes.
Q Wouldn’t the difference be— wouldn’t the difference
equal the number of white children who lived outside of
the Town of Scotland Neck?
A They would not because there were Negroes and
white coming from outside of Scotland Neck, attending
school at Scotland Neck last year. You see, we trans
ferred—
Q Let’s go back. Let’s go back. Did you tell us,
reading I think from the HEW forms for the 1968-69
school year, that for Scotland Neck there was a total of
797 children?
A 979 total, Scotland Neck.
Q 979?
A Yes.
Q And there were 193 Negro children?
A 193.
Q So if you subtract 193 from the 797, you get 786, is
that right?
A Repeat that please.
Q If you subtract the number of Negro children from
the 797 and the— 979, you get the number 786, is that
right?
A Yes.
Q Is that the number of white children at the Scot
land Neck School?
A That attended school last year, yes, that is correct.
Q Your survey showed that 399 white children live in
the Town of Scotland Neck?
A Yes.
Q Now, if we subtract the number of white children
inside the Town of Scotland Neck, 399, from the total
number of white children at the Scotland Neck School,
786, don’t we get the number of white children who lived
outside the Town of Scotland Neck?
A No, because we have both Negro and white coming
from outside of Scotland Neck last year.
Q I realize that, Mr. Overman, but it seems to me
we— can we go off the record for a minute.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Isn’t it true, then, that if you sub
tract the number of white children in Scotland Neck,
399, from the total number of white children, 786, who at
tended the 1968-69 Scotland Neck school, you get the
number 387 white children?
A That’s right.
Q Those 387 white children live outside the Town of
Scotland Neck?
A Yes . . . . 377 it is.
Q 387.
A 387.
Q Do you know where those— strike that, please. Do
you have the operating cost for the Halifax County School
System for the 1968-69 school year?
A I do not have that entire information, because you
are including, I suppose, all sources of funds— State
funds, federal funds, and County funds— and we do not
have that compiled.
Q I see. Do you have any one of those three cate
gories?
A I have the local funds, the County funds, which also
includes federal funds and State funds. They are handled
through our office, through our local budget, but the
source of them— some are State and some are federal.
For example, we get matching funds for vocational teach
ers— State and federal funds. And we have not broken
this down, so the only thing that I could give you at this
time is the amount of funds that we have expended
through our local budget from the three sources.
Q Okay.
A And it is $596,639.29. Now, what portion of that
is federal funds and State funds I do not know.
Q Does that include the capital outlay funds that you
were talking about earlier?
A No, it does not. The capital outlay expenditures
during this year were $398,372.73.
250
Q Are there any other funds that the County School
Board administers with respect to county schools?
A Yes.. The ESEA Title I funds. I don’t have the
figures on this. We could get this. And that is federal
funds, of course.
Q Yes, sir.
A But they are administered. And then, of course,
State funds that we draw the checks directly upon the
State treasurer for. We do not have a tabulation of that
at present.
Q What do the State funds that you draw directly—
where do they go, what kind of expenditures?
A Well, the largest item is instructional expense, pay
ment of teachers’ salaries. And then all areas of current
expense come from State funds, except one section of the
budget we call maintenance of plant. That is the building
repairs to the— that pays for furniture, replacement of
furniture, and buildings and grounds repairs. It in
cludes that section. The State does not pay any portion
of that.
Q Do you have a list of inventories and plant eval
uations for the 1968-69 year?
A Yes, I do.
Q Do you have it broken down by schools, sir?
A Yes, sir. I have this only from insurance records.
Q All right, sir. Can you tell us the total figures for
the school system first, please?
A You want last year’s, 1968-69?
Q Please.
A All right. Just one moment. Now these are values
that are set up by the representative of the division of
insurance, with whom we carry our building insurance.
Total, $6,029,700.00. That is buildings. Now the con
tents values—we insure those at what we consider about
seventy-five percent of the value. And that figure was
$997,800.00, making a total of $7,027,500.00.
Q Do you know the plant, in the inventory evaluation,
for the Scotland Neck School for the 1968-69 school vear?
A Yes.
Q Would you give us that, please?
251
252
A I will have to do some adding here because they are
broken down by buildings.
Q If you will just read—how long is that list, Mr.
Overman?
A Oh, there is six separate buildings.
Q Maybe you just can read the whole thing.
A Beg your pardon.
Q Could you read them into the record, please, and we
can add them up later?
A All right. Do you want to name the buildings or
just the amount of funds?
Q Just the amounts, please.
A All right. $90,000.00 for one building. $60,000.00
for another. $135,000.00 for another. $16,000.00 for an
other, a small building. $95,000.00 for another building,
and $500.00 for a storage building. And we have what
is called the Scotland Neck principal’s home. Do you want
to include this?
Q Yes, sir.
A $8500.00. And the garage at location, $400.00.
Now they are the values of the buildings that are now
in the Scotland Neck Administrative Unit. Now we have
the Scotland Neck Junior High School that was operated
in our unit during this year. Do you wish to include
that?
Q Yes, sir.
A That is $96,000.00. They are the values of the
buildings, and the contents would be as follows: $26,-
600.00. $23,000.00 $4,600.00. $3,200.00. $10,400.00. And
the contents of $3,500.00. And then the mobile classroom
units. These units were moved about from one place to
another. And I don’t know that I can identify them with
the information I have here. I have another sheet that
I can find and identify those if you want me to be ex
cused to get that.
Q No. Can you tell me the number of mobile units
at the main Scotland Neck campus?
A One, that value: $5300.00, building. $1200.00, con
tents.
Q And the number of mobile classrooms at the Junior
High School campus?
253
A Eight. And an average would be $5600.00. And
there is some variation here, depending on the average
of those units, but I would say an average would be
$5600.00 for those eight. And $1200.00, contents.
Q Do you know the extent of real and personal prop
erty which has been transferred from the Halifax County
Board to the City Administrative unit as required by
state law?
A Well, it would be those figures that I gave you,
with the exception of those located at the Scotland Neck
Junior High School.
Q All right. Have there been any additional items,
like books, that have been transferred to—
A Oh, yes, all of the equipment, the library books,
textbooks, and supplies— all of this was transferred.
Q Were they the ones, the books that were at the Scot
land Neck school during this past school year, they just
remained there?
A Yes. Well, there has not been a division of some
of these things as of the present, so I would not know
how many books will remain there.
Q Were there items in addition—were there items
that were transferred to the Scotland Neck City Board in
addition to those that were used at the— Scotland Neck
last year? Did you go to other schools and get some prop
erty that you had to transfer to the Scotland Neck school
Board?
A No. Now there has been a proposal for leasing the
Scotland Neck Junior High School building and equip
ment, but it has not been executed yet.
Q What is required to complete that proposal?
A Well, the Halifax County Board of Education has
submitted a proposal and the terms of the lease agree
ment. It has not yet been accepted by the Scotland Neck
Board of Education that I know about.
Q Are there any steps beyond that that are required
to culminate the lease? Does anybody else have to ap
prove it, other than the Scotland Neck City Board?
A No. Just between the two boards.
Q What are the terms of the lease, the financial
terms?
254
A Well, the financial terms would be a lease for one
year at a time and for the sum of one dollar per year.
Q Yes, sir. And the Scotland Neck Board— excuse me.
The Halifax County Board has approved it?
A Yes, and proposed this to the Scotland Neck School
Board.
Q Now I believe that— do you have written materials
dealing with obtaining information about the creation of
the separate school system for Scotland Neck?
A Will you repeat the question?
Q Did you get a subpoena duces tecum, a subpoena, to
bring some documents here to this deposition?
A I received it Sunday night at ten o’clock, is when
it was delivered to me. I was out of the office on Friday.
Q I see.
A And so I didn’t have that until ten o’clock last
night. And I have it here with me, yes.
Q I believe Item 4 requests any materials you have
concerning the creation of the separate independent school
system of Scotland Neck?
A Correspondence.
Q Item # 4, please.
A Yes.
Q Do you have such materials?
A Well, only letters that were written to the Chair
man of the Board of Education about pupil—pupil as
signment, and gotten from the survey that was run, free
choice survey.
Q Could I see those letters?
A I think I have copies of those in the folder. I’m not
certain. And I did have one in regard to preparing
floors for use. One in regard to the extension of the
Scotland Neck School boundaries to include the location
of the junior high school. Here are two letters. The
others are not in this folder. They can be located. Would
you want to take the time? I think about two other let
ters.
Q Well, we could take time at lunch period. These
are the only two letters you have, two letters?
A I have two others.
255
Q A total of four?
A I think so. I believe that is it.
Q Mr. Overman, I am looking at a letter on the sta
tionery of the Board of Education, State of North Caro
lina. The letter dated June 11, 1969, addressed to Mr.
Frank P. Shields, Chairman, Scotland Neck City School
Administrative Unit, Scotland Neck, North Carolina. Are
you familiar with what—
A This is the State Board of Education letter.
Q — with what Mr. Davis is talking about in his let
ter?
A Yes.
Q What the background is?
A Yes.
MR. KENNEDY (To Witness) : Would you show that
to Mr. Josey and Mr. Crew.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Do you know what the gentleman
has reference to in his letter, what he is talking about?
A Yes. The Halifax County Board of Education and
the Scotland Neck Board of Education met jointly and
passed a resolution that the junior high school location,
ten acres of land which is adjacent to the town bound
aries of Scotland Neck, adjoining that unit, passed a
resolution that this property may become a part of the
Scotland Neck unit. When I say property, I mean the
land. And those resolutions were presented to the State
Board of Education and the State Board of Education by
this letter approved the extension of the Scotland Neck
School Administrative Unit. But that particular thing
did not convey with it any buildings or property.
Q I see. Is that the reason then this— the lease was
necessary?
A Yes.
Q The lease?
A That’s correct.
Q So that is it true, then, that the boundary line of
the Scotland Neck City Administrative Unit now includes
this junior high school campus?
A That’s correct.
Q And the junior high school campus, although owned
by the County, has been leased to and will be operated
by the City system?
256
A The property located on that has been leased or
offered for lease.
Q Offered for lease?
A Yes.
Q Thank you. Are there in existence any agreements
between the County Board and the City Board with re
spect to pupils who reside in the County who may wish to
go to school in the City of Scotland Neck?
A There has been no written agreement, except an
understanding that they may be allowed to go from one
unit to the other.
Q I see. Do you know how many students— what
amount— the number of students that would be involved
in this?
A An estimate of about 300. Wait. Let me get the
exact figure on that. 345.
Q What is the race?
A That is an estimate.
Q What is the race of those children, sir?
A I cannot tell you because these forms were turned
over to the Scotland Neck School Administrative Unit.
Q What forms are those?
A A survey. That is, the free choice forms.
Q So this figure that you have given is a result of a
number of survey forms that were turned over to the—
A Yes.
Q — to the Scotland Neck Board. Do you have any
record of the names of these students?
A Yes, they are by name, that is correct.
Q Do you have a record—
A I don’t know that the race is indicated at all by
name.
Q Where did these children go to school last year, sir?
# A They went to Scotland Neck. That is, part of them
did. Now I don’t know whether they are Negroes or not,
that went to Brawley School. There may be a few of
those.
Q Are these 334 children?
A That is approximately.
Q They are children who chose the Scotland Neck
School for the coming year?
257
A Yes.
Q And you have previously given us, I believe, the
number of— number of white children and the number of
Negro children who chose the Scotland Neck School for
this year, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And you have previously given us the number of
white children and Negro children who live within the
Town of Scotland Neck— the pupils, that is?
A Yes. Those that were in attendance last year. It
may not correspond with this year’s enrollment.
Q That number, 334, children who chose Scotland
Neck and who live outside of Scotland Neck is very close
to the number of 387 children which you previously de
termined is the number of white children who went to
Scotland Neck School last year and who live outside of
the Town of Scotland Neck—isn’t that so?
A Well, there is a variation there of about 40 children.
Q Forty children. Do you know what conditions these
334 children will have to meet in order to go to Scotland
Neck Schools?
A I do not know the full details.
Q Do you know if there will be any children who
live inside of Scotland Neck who will go outside of Scot
land Neck to a county school?
A At this time the juniors and the seniors who live
in Scotland Neck would be allowed to go by choice to
Brawley School.
Q Those, of course, are all Negro students?
A I would assume, yes.
Q Well, there are no white students, no white child
that chose Brawley School, was there?
A I would say: no.
Q Do you know of any tuition agreements?
A I don’t know definitely about tuition agreements.
Q Is there any tuition requirement for juniors and
seniors who live in Scotland Neck who want to go to
Brawley for this coming year?
A No.
(LUNCHEON RECESS)
258
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Mr. Overman, you have figures that
show the per pupil expenditure from local sources for
the Halifax County Administrative Unit during a recent
school year, preferably the last school year?
A I have it for 1967-68 school year.
Q Would you give us that, please?
A Now, this is not by school.
Q Right.
A It is by the entire unit.
Q Right.
A And you want the amount of per pupil expenditure
from each source— State, federal, and local?
Q Please.
A For the State funds, $328.39. Federal, $129.70.
Local, $42.58, for a total of $492.67. This does not in
clude lunchroom, child feeding services. And it does not
include capital outlay. These are figures compiled in
Raleigh by the State Department of Public Instruction.
Q With respect to capital outlay, does— is there still
a sum of money available to the County Administrative
Unit from a recent State bond issue?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that figure, sir?
A $837,000.00— in round figures. I can give you the
exact figure if you’d like that.
Q That is all right as you gave it. Was that, or does
the creation of the new Scotland Neck City Administra
tive Unit decrease that amount of money that $129,000?
A Well, it hasn’t up to this time.
Q Has the Halifax County Administrative Unit se
cured a legal opinion from the State Attorney General’s
office?
A Yes, they have.
Q Without stating the substance of the legal opinion,
do you know whether the Attorney General’s Office
stated that the money would remain in tact for the Coun
ty Administrative units?
MR. JOSEY: Object.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Can you answer that, please?
A Yes, that was the opinion of the Attorney Gen
eral’s Office.
259
Q Do you know whether that any of that $829,000.00
then will be allocated to the new city unit in Scotland
Neck?
A $837,000.00— was that the figure I gave?
Q Yes, sir.
A I cannot say at this time. It is our present— we
say it is the Halifax County Board of Education allot
ment.
Q Are there any agreements betewen the county ad
ministrative unit and the city administrative unit to
transfer any or a portion of that money to the city unit?
A No.
Q So that even with the loss of the Scotland Neck
school under the creation of the new city school unit, that
sum of money from the capital improvement fund from
the State is still available to the county administrative
unit?
A Yes.
Q Are you familiar with a report entitled “The Re
port of the Governor’s Study Commission on the Public
School System?”
A Yes.
Q Of North Carolina. Dated December 3, 1968?
A Yes.
Q Are you familiar with the recommendations made
in the Governor’s Study Commission Report relative to
the size of school administrative units?
A Yes, reasonably so.
Q Are you in agreement with those conclusions?
MR. CREW: I believe I would object.
MR. KENNEDY (To W itn ess): You can answer that,
sir.
A I would say partially.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Can you—what portions are you
not in agreement with, to what extent?
A Well, I don’t have it just before me right now, and
if you would ask some specific question I would be glad
to answer that.
Q I’ll try to do that for you. I am handing you a
copy of the Report of the Governor’s Study Commission
260
of the Public School System in North Carolina, dated
December 1968, and on pages 163 and 164 is a quotation
from the 1948 study conducted by the North Carolina
State Education Committee, carrying over to page 164.
With permission of counsel I will read a paragraph and
ask you to comment if you are in favor or disagreement
with this.
MR. JOSEY: You say with permission of counsel?
MR. KENNEDY: Yes, sir.
MR. JOSEY: I object.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) I will ask you to read then the
first full paragraph on top of page 164 and ask you if
you are basically in agreement with that, the first full
and fifth paragraph, and ask you if you are basically
in agreement with those paragraphs?
MR. JOSEY: I object.
A Since the local administrative unit should be suf
ficiently large enough to warrant the provision of all the
essential administrative and supervisory services, local
units of school administration which are established in
the future should be organized so as to insure any unit
an absolute minimum of 3500 to 4,000 school nonulation
and a desirable school minimum of 9,000 to 10,000 school
population. Except as it is found to be administratively
practical, secondary schools should be established so as
to insure an absolute minimum enrollment of 300 pupils
and a desirable minimum of 500 to 600 pupils. A four-
year secondary school should have an absolute minimum
of 600 to 700 students and a desirable minimum of 900
to 1,000 students.
MR. JOSEY: Now we object to the answering of that
question because you are taking one section out of a book
that I would estimate is a hundred fifty pages, and I
don’t see how—we have a hundred counties in the State,
and I do not see how his opinion with respect to one
county, one paragraph out of a hundred fifty pages,
would be fair to anyone in giving that answer.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Would you answer the question,
please, sir?
A Well, I think I would have to answer the question
based on conditions. I think it is desirable to have a large
261
enough high school set up to have— as far as possible, to
meet the needs and the desires of the high school stu
dents in their training so that there might be academic
courses, vocational courses, and courses that would pre
pare them for college or university, and courses that
would at least prepare partially for vocations, and these
particular numbers may or may not fit into a circum
stance. I can’t give you a yes or no answer for these
particular figures.
Q Do you know of any group of professional edu
cators in this State who say that that is not a desirable
criteria?
A You mean these numbers or the idea of larger high
schools, or what is your question?
Q Larger high schools specifically, as stated in the
two paragraphs that you just read.
A I think the professional organization has stated
that they would approve this criteria.
Q What professional organization is that, sir?
A North Carolina Teachers Association.
Q Are you familiar, Mr. Overman, with a book en
titled “High Schools in the South,” a fact book published
by the George Peabody College for Teachers, in Nashville,
Tennessee?
A I am not very familiar with it. I know there is a
publication but I do not know the contents very well.
Q Are you familiar with the recommendations that
this book makes with respect to acceptable minimum
standards for high school size as far as teachers and
students go?
A No.
MR. CREW: We would object in that he has said
he is not familiar with it.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) I am asking in particular— all
right, sir. Do you know— strike that, please. Are there
certificates issued by the State education officials to all
the teachers that teach in North Carolina public schools,
sir?
A Either a certificate or what is known as a salary
rating or a rating. There are times when all of the re
262
quirements have not been met for a particular certificate,
or requirements on the national teacher examination.
They will establish a rating for a period of time, until
the deficiencies can be removed.
Q Are there different certificates for primary and
for high school teachers?
A There are different certificates for elementary and
high school certificates.
Q Are they known as, respectively, elementary cer
tificates and high school certificates?
A Yes.
Q Is there something called an “A” certificate?
A Yes, a Class “A” Certificate.
Q What does that mean, sir?
A That means a college or university graduate, and
having met all the educational requirements of the State
Department of Public Instruction, and also having passed
successfully the national teacher examination.
Q Is that minimum requirement, sir, or an actual re
quirement?
A For a Class “A” Certificate?
Q No, is a Class “A ” Certificate a maximum or a
minimum requirement for a teacher, that he has to have
this in order to teach?
A Class “B” Certificates may be granted, but that
is the lowest one that they will issue at this time.
Q During the year that just passed how many of the
teachers in the Halifax County System had “B” Certifi
cates?
A Had “B” Certificates?
Q Yes, sir.
A I do not know. I started to gathering some of this
information that you called for, but I haven’t gotten that
particular information.
Q Do you know how many teachers whose certificates
are for elementary grades are teaching something other
than elementary grades, that is, during the past year?
A I do not know the number. I do know that we
have teachers that have high school certificates that are
teaching in the upper elementary grades, seven and eight.
263
There are none who have elementary certificates that are
teaching in high school that I know about.
Q Do you know how many there are in the group ap
proximately who have high school certificates who are
teaching the seventh and eighth grades?
A I do not.
Q You said you didn’t know how many teachers there
were who had “B” Certificates?
A No.
Q Do you know what schools they were located in last
year?
A No, I do not have that information. I can probably
have a report that I can refer to without much trouble
and find this out.
MR. K EN N ED Y : Well, may be we will get it at the
b r69.k
THE W ITNESS: All right.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Do you have statistics indicating
either the residence or the school attendance of pupils
who qualify for the financial assistance under the Ele
mentary and Secondary Education Act?
A Yes.
Q Do you know how many of these pupils there are
at each school?
A I do not have that information at present. I think
it is available. We will be glad to get that information if
you like.
Q Do you have correspondence or any notes or writ
ings with respect to the creation of the separate school
system for the Littleton-Lake Gaston area?
A No correspondence concerning that.
Q Any reports— do you have any reports or studies or
anything written down, your notes or—
A No.
Q Or proposals or complaints?
A No.
Q Oh, you indicated before we took the lunch break
that there were two other letters concerning the Scotland
Neck system.
264
A This is one that I had reference to in regard to the
tabulation or the results of the free choice survey studies
as it pertains to the Scotland Neck School Unit.
Q Do you mind if I take a look at that, sir?
A All right.
Q What is the other one?
.A Well, this is just information about— this has to do
with pupils, also.
Q Would you— this letter is two pages. Would it be
possible for you to get a copy of this, rather than to read
it into the record?
A Yes, I guess so.
MR. JOSEY: Let me see that.
MR. K EN N ED Y : Two copies. One for the lady and
one for us.
THE W ITNESS: All right.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Mr. Overman, just for the purposes
of the record, can we get your own personal education,
please, professional education, please?
A Yes.
Q Tell us what that is.
A Beyond high school?
Q Yes, sir.
A Well, I am a graduate of Wake Forest College— it
was at that time— Wake Forest University, now. And
I have an A.B. Degree and I have a masters degree from
East Carolina University. And I have taken courses be
yond the masters degree at East Carolina University.
Q How long have you been superintendent in this as
sociation?
A In this unit?
Q Yes, sir.
A Twenty-two years.
Q Have you been a superintendent— were you a sup
erintendent before that?
A Yes.
Q Where was that, sir?
A In Gates County.
265
Q For how long?
A Eleven and a half years.
Q What was your professional experience before that?
A I taught four years.
Q In North Carolina Schools?
A In North Carolina Schools. In Nash County Schools.
Q Have you, or your staff, ever considered possibili
ties of reorganizing the grade structures between the
Scotland Neck and the Brawley Schools—you are famili
ar with what we call pairing, aren’t you, Mr. Overman?
A Oh, yes. Yes.
Q Have you ever considered pairing those two schools?
A Well, this was partially, a part of it. When I say
partially I mean there was some pairing in this plan
that was submitted and another part of it was a freedom
of choice between—
Q Have you ever considered—has the school system
considered a pairing without any free choice involved for
the Brawley and Scotland Neck Schools?
MR. CREW: I would object. I don’t see that it would
be pertinent, what they considered would be concerned
with what they have done.
MR. K EN N ED Y : What they have attempted to do in
order to comply both with the law and with the adminis
trative school system.
MR. JOSEY: You are trying to pick his mind—
MR. K EN N ED Y : Considered or planned.
MR. JOSEY: What he thought about.
A This was a part of the plan, as I say, that was
submitted to the Justice Department, to pair the Braw
ley and the Scotland Neck Schools, and then there was a
portion of it was freedom of choice. I am sure you are
familiar with that.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Yes, sir.
A And if you would like a breakdown—
Q How much free choice— with respect to what grades
was there going to be free choice at Brawley?
A Brawley School would have grades one through five
and nine through twelve. Scotland Neck would have one
through twelve. There would be a choice of either of
266
those schools. Now Scotland Neck, of course, would have
only six through eight. As you can see from this. And
here are the figures estimated. Have Brawley first, one
through four and seven through nine, 1070 pupils. Scot
land Neck would have had in the middle school, five
through six, 255 pupils. And, of course, the choice there
of ten and eleven, we could not estimate that because
that would have been according to choice. Now if you
want the breakdown by races that we estimated at that
time—
Q Well, what grades were open for free choice?
A Well, actually, the grades that were open for choice
was one through twelve at Scotland Neck. Brawley, nine
through twelve, was open for choice.
Q There was no choice for the children at Brawley,
grades one through eight?
A One through five would have been assigned to
Brawley. They would have had a choice, yes. All one
through twelve. Scotland Neck would have had a choice
and Brawley would have had a choice. But grades six
through eight would have been assigned to Scotland
Neck.
Q I see. There would be no grades six through eight
taught at Brawley?
A Right. That’s correct.
Q So the free choice would have been grades one
through five at both schools?
A Right, and then nine through twelve.
Q At both schools?
A Right.
Q I see. You told us a little earlier that there were
approximately 44 or 46 teachers that taught at Scotland
Neck last year. Do you know where those teachers were
going to be teaching this coming year, sir?
A Where they will be teaching?
Q Yes, sir.
A No, I don’t know, all of them.
Q Do you know if any of them will be teaching for
the County School System?
A Yes, some of those will be teaching for the County
School System.
267
Q Do you know how many?
A There are three that I know of—four. There are
four.
Q What are their race?
A We have three white teachers and one Negro teach
er.
Q Does the School Board keep a personnel file that
contains information about the certificate of each teacher
— each teacher possesses who teaches in the school system?
A Yes.
Q Do you have that information with respect to the
teachers who taught last year in the Scotland Neck sys
tem?
A Yes.
Q You still have that?
A Yes. We do not have them filed together by schools.
They are in our files alphabetically.
Q Are you planning to retain that information?
A Yes, we will retain these teachers who are no
longer teaching in our unit in the inactive file for refer
ence at any time we need them.
Q I see. Now, with respect to the creation of the
Scotland Neck City Administrative Unit, do you know
of any educational advantages that would be available
to the students in Scotland Neck, that would come from
the creation of the Scotland Neck City Unit?
A Now, are you speaking of the course— courses that
would be offered in Scotland Neck, or are you referring
to an over-all generalization?
Q I am going to hand you what I have just shown
Mr. Josey and Mr. Crew, a document at the top of which
says North Carolina General Assembly, 1969 Session,
Ratified Bill, Chapter 31, House Bill 22. And the next
line reads: An Act to improve and provide public schools
of a higher standard for the residents of Scotland Neck
and Halifax County, to establish the Scotland Neck City
Unit. There are several other lines following that. This
is a copy of the bill that created the Scotland Neck City
System, is that correct?
A Yes. I am familiar with that, yes.
268
Q Do you know what some of those, or what any—
what are the standards by which the creation of the
school system will improve the schools of Scotland Neck?
A I do not know about the courses of study or the
courses that will be offered in the Scotland Neck school
for next year. My only comment could be that by virtue
of the fact that they will have the supplemental tax that
that will mean for that school unit they will have more
money per child than they would had they remained in
the County Unit, of local money. When I speak of local
money, County money is what I’m talking about.
Q Do you know how much more money they will have
in the Scotland Neck Unit?
A Well, it is fifty cents on the one hundred dollar
valuation. As I remember, the valuation of that property
in that unit is somewhere near five million dollars. I
would like to be corrected if I am not correct. And so
that would give you the amount of money.
Q How much is that, sir, what— that would be avail
able?
A $25,000.00. That is an approximate figure. It is
not exactly five million— the property evaluation.
Q So it would be about $25,000.00, give or take some?
A Yes.
Q Do you know what this money is going to be used
for, sir?
A No, I do not.
Q Now do you know if the Scotland Neck City Unit
can provide the same quality of educational program for
the coming year, and at what cost per pupil they can
provide that program or will— strike that question. Do
you know whether the city system’s per pupil cost to
provide the same educational program as the County
provided this past year, do you know whether that per
pupil cost will rise or remain the same or be lower?
A Well, I would assume that it will be— that it will
rise, yes.
Q Why so?
A Because of the extra money that they will get
from the supplemental tax. But the total, I am not able
to answer that, how much it will rise.
269
Q Without the students in Scotland Neck, the seven
hundred plus students that you told us about earlier liv
ing inside the Town, that leaves something around 9,000
students in the County system, is that right, sir?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now can the Scotland Neck City system provide for
the coming year the same kind of educational program
as— on exactly the same per pupil cost as the County
provided for the past year?
A Well, I can’t answer your question so far as the
schedule of courses and classes is concerned— the types—
because this will be worked out in the Scotland Neck
School Administrative Unit. And I would assume it would
be as— certainly on the same level as the County. Would
not be below that level.
Q That the educational program would remain the
same, sir?
A I do not know, as I say, about courses to be offered
and so on.
Q Let me ask you the question a little differently. If
we can assume for a minute that the educational pro
gram for the coming year, conducted by the Scotland
Neck Board, will remain the same as that just this past
year provided by the Halifax County Board, will the
Scotland Neck Board have to spend more money per pupil
to accomplish that same end than the County spent the
last year to educate those students on a per pupil basis?
MR, JOSEY: Object. He said he didn’t know.
A That is what I was just saying, that I do not know.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Do you know anybody who does
know?
A I would assume the new superintendent of schools
working on the schedule for the Scotland Neck High
School. I don’t know whether he’s completed it or not.
Q Do you know anybody in addition to the superin
tendent who had an opinion or had information relative
to the kind of program that could be provided for a cer
tain amount of money in Scotland Neck?
A Members of the Scotland Neck School Board would
probably have information.
270
Q Did you give them any information about operat
ing costs for schools down there?
A I don’t recall, except that this booklet was avail
able to anyone who asked for it, and I don’t recall wheth
er the chairman of the board of education of Scotland
Neck got a copy of this or not. Now this is 1967-68.
Q What is the name of the document you are refer
ring to?
A Current Expenditures by Sources of Funds.
Q Is this document applicable to Halifax County?
A No. For the whole State.
Q For the whole State?
A From Scotland Neck— I mean from the full report.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Mr. Overman, does this document
show the average pupil expenditures for all of the county
administrative units in North Carolina?
A Yes.
Q Is that also— is that figure also broken down as to
source, and as to source as to whether it is State, federal
and local?
A It does.
Q Would you read the per pupil expenditure county
average and identify the source, please?
A County average, the source, of the State funds,
$326.21. Federal, $69.17. Local, $69.02. And total,
$464.40.
Q Is there also the same figures for the city admin
istrative units?
A The city administrative units average, State,
$316.07. Federal, $53.95. Local, $97.59. Total, $468.24.
Q Would you read the State average, the combined
average?
A The combined average for the State from State
Funds, $323.74. Federal, $65.21. Local, $76.44. Total,
$465.39.
Q Thank you, sir. Referring once more to the teach
ers who taught this past year at the Scotland Neck
School, yon mentioned that some four teachers from the
46 will be teaching in the County Schools this fall, is
that right?
271
A Yes.
Q Do you anticipate getting any other teachers from
that group to teach in the County schools this fall?
A I do not know at this time.
Q When will you open school, sir?
A The latter part of August, the 26th or 27th.
Q Is that the first day of school?
A I think the first day of school for pupils, full day,
is the 28th I believe. That is correct. Thursday, the
last week in August.
Q So there are roughly seven weeks left before school
opens up— six or seven weeks?
A A little more than six weeks, yes. Pupils will at
tend on the 27th day. It is not a full school day. What
we call teacher-pupil orientation day, for assignments,
issuing of books, and other matters.
Q Is there some kind of a summer school program
being conducted by the County Board right now, sir?
A Yes.
Q How many teachers are involved in that?
A I do not have that number.
Q Approximately.
A It doesn’t register with me right now. I have that
information and will be glad to get it for you.
Q Is it about 84 teachers?
A At least that number.
Q Approximately how many children involved?
A I do not know that number.
Q Do you know of any summer school program being
conducted by the Scotland Neck Board?
A No.
Q Do you know of any specific areas in which the
Scotland Neck Board is going to improve the education
or attempt to improve the education for the children in
Scotland Neck?
A I have answered that, I believe, before, that I can
only say that there will be more funds available because
of the supplemental tax. Now so far as the school cur
riculum is concerned, I do not know about this.
Q Is it generally true that it costs a unit the size of
Halifax County less per pupil to provide an education
272
program than it would cost per pupil a system the size
of Scotland Neck to provide the exact same program?
A Would you repeat that, please?
(QUESTION READ)
A Well, it is a difficult question to answer. If you
are considering finances, I think that is true. But so
far as curriculum is concerned I do not know.
Q Referring back again to the interim plan suggested
in the 1968 survey, what administrative difficulties, if
any, are there which would possibly delay—strike that
question, please.
Referring to the interim plan, what possible admin
istrative difficulties would there be if the school board
were ordered to adopt that interim plan for the 1969-70
school year?
MR. CREW: Wasn’t that question asked this morn
ing?
MR. K EN N ED Y : I didn’t ask this specific question.
A I would like to comment further on that question.
MR. K EN N ED Y : I didn’t ask the specific date. I
think that is the difference.
A I was talking in terms of finances only when I
answered that question this morning. But there are
many administrative difficulties on a short notice to get
ready for the—putting in the new plan of operation for
a—the next school term. We would be involved, of
course, in moving all of these temporary units, mobile
units, which takes considerable time. We would be in
volved in rerouting all of the school busses, transporta
tion difficulty. Transferring of books, library books,
textbooks, and equipment, pupil furniture, and many
other things.
Q How many of the approximately 15 mobile units
would have to be moved?
A I really do not know. I would have to review these
recommendations to give an answer to that. But I am
certain that there would be many that would have to
be moved.
Q Are there changes in the bus routes that have to
be made from year to year, or do they remain the same
from year to year?
273
A Well, if the schools have the same kinds of or
ganization year after year, there are not many changes.
Q Some?
A There are some, yes, some adjustments, but to
completely revise the organization would require a com
plete reorganization of transportation.
Q I am referring to page 17 of the Exhibit # 2 .
There is a map that appears there. In the Scotland
Neck-Brawley area of the County, if I am correct, there
are two schools where high school grades are taught, at
Scotland Neck and Brawley. That is east of the Enfield
schools, the Inborden Schools, but the Tillery Chapel,
Dawson, and Thomas Shields and Bakers schools are all
grades one through eight, is that correct?
A That’s correct. You’re talking about last year?
Q Last year, that’s right.
A Yes.
Q Now are the high school students who live in the
area of Tillery Chapel, are they bussed directly into the
high schools in Scotland Neck or do they make a stop
first at Tillery Chapel?
A Yes, there may be some stops there, but right many
of the high school students have express busses to Braw
ley.
Q Without making—where do they start, do they
start at Tillery Chapel?
A Well, we had transportation arranged this way:
that the elementary children go into Tillery Chapel and
then they reload on high school busses. Now some of
those high school busses have to pick up elementary chil
dren when they get into the Brawley Elementary Dis
trict, but for the most part there are not very many
pickups on those busses.
Q Would the same be true for Dawson and Thomas
Shields, that there are some high school students that
have to make a stop at those respective elementary
grades?
A That’s correct. Now, Thomas Shields, I think
there are more stops made for serving elementary chil
dren that attend the Brawley and/or Scotland Neck
School as it was organized last year because we had the
274
seventh and eighth grades— no. I beg your pardon.
This was only in the Brawley area. They had one
through eight at Thomas Shields, that’s correct.
Q Do the children riding busses— correction. Do the
children, who live in the area of Tillery Chapel ride
busses to the Scotland Neck School, do they make a stop
also at Tillery Chapel?
A Yes.
Q So these are the busses that go to the predom
inantly white schools?
A That’s correct.
Q Are there white children on these busses that stop
at Tillery Chapel?
A As they stop at Tillery Chapel?
Q Yes, before going to Scotland Neck.
A No. No.
Q So the only busses that stop at Tillery Chapel are
the busses that go to Brawley?
A That go to Brawley, and then there are some that
might ride, elementary children, seventh and eighth
grade, would go over to the Scotland Neck Junior High
School.
Q Well, are there busses that go in that area of
Tillery Chapel that take children directly to the Scotland
Neck school?
A No, not this year.
Q Are there white children that live in the area of
Tillery Chapel that go to the Scotland Neck School?
A There are.
Q Do some of them ride the bus?
A They ride busses that go directly to Scotland Neck
School, but they do not------
Q You run both busses that go------
A Yes.
Q ------ go to Tillery Chapel and then go to Brawley?
A Yes.
Q In the same area. Would the same area pick up
white children and go into the Scotland Neck School?
A That is correct.
Q Do these busses that go to Scotland Neck direct
and the busses that go to Tillery Chapel then to Brawley
run down some of the same roads?
275
A Yes, they do. Yes.
Q Well, do you have white children riding the busses
who live in the area of Thomas Shields School?
A Yes.
Q Do they------
A Now------
Q Do they go directly to the Scotland Neck School?
A They do, yes.
Q Are there children who live in the area of Thomas
Shields who go to the Thomas Shields School by bus?
A Yes.
Q And then do the children who are bussed from
Thomas Shields into Brawley?
A Yes, high school children.
Q And these busses that— from the Thomas Shields
area that go to Scotland Neck and the ones that go to
Brawley, do they also run down the same roads?
A Some of them do, yes.
Q So that is another area of the County where busses
going to predominantly white schools and busses going
to the predominantly Negro schools go down the same
roads?
A That is correct— in operation last year?
Q The last school year.
A Yes. Now—
Q Excuse me.
A Let me explain this. If there were children as
signed to a Scotland Neck school, regardless of their race,
they were transported on these busses that went to that
particular school, Scotland Neck, and they loaded on those
busses rather than to be transported to Scotland Neck
and then to Brawley and then to Scotland Neck. These
children who are assigned to Scotland Neck School rode
on the busses that terminated at Scotland Neck.
Q Well, as of last year is it true that there was a
system of busses, one that went into the geographic area
and picked up children and took them to Scotland Neck
School, and another set of busses that went into the same
geographic area and took the children to the Brawley
School?
276
A That’s correct, unless these children were assigned
to their particular school, they rode on the bus that went
to some other school. If I might explain this. And let’s
get back to Thomas Shields now. There are busses oper
ating in the Thomas Shields area, some busses going to
Scotland Neck School, and whenever children were as
signed to Scotland Neck School were transported on those
busses, whatever children were assigned to Brawley
School were transported to Brawley School, and then we
had some that were picked up in the Brawley Elementary
area, which is smaller than this whole area of course,
because there are four elementary schools served in that
area.
Q How long does it take to drive a school bus from
the main Scotland Neck campus to the Brawley campus,
if you know?
A You’re talking about loading the children now, or
just driving?
Q No, sir, just driving.
A Just driving the bus— I would say five minutes.
Q How far away are they?
A Not more than a mile. Hardly a mile I believe.
Now this is the main campus of Scotland Neck you’re
talking about?
Q Right. Let’s refer for a moment to the Enfield
area.
MR. JOSEY: May I interrupt.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Mr. Overman, are there busses
that pick up children in the County who go to the Enfield
School who live in areas within, say, four or five miles
of the Enfield School?
A Your question was------
Q Are there children going to the Enfield School who
live within four or five miles of the Enfield School and
ride busses to the Enfield School?
A Yes.
Q Flow far away from the Enfield School are the two
Inborden Schools?
A A mile and a half, two miles.
277
Q How far away from each other are the two In-
borden Schools?
A Well, there is just a road separating those, a drive
really.
Q Are there children who go to Inborden who live
in the same areas as the children who go to Enfield?
A Yes.
Q And are there children going to Inborden picked
up by County busses, also?
A Yes.
Q And carried straight there?
A Yes.
Q So you have children into— on these busses going
to Inborden that travel the same roads that go to Enfield?
A Some of them do, yes.
Q So you have busses going to the different areas pick
up children and carry them into the Town of Enfield?
A Yes, different busses.
Q Different busses?
A Yes, that’s right. Now all children who are as
signed to Enfield School, regardless of their race, are
transported to the Enfield School, and, of course, the
same applies to the two schools at Inborden School.
Q But if the— if the county school system were or
dered to adopt the zone lines that you have already
drawn around the Inborden-Enfield Schools, and a pair
ing plan was adopted, wouldn’t that considerably reduce
the number of overlapping bus routes from what you
have now?
A Well, it would have to be reorganized certainly.
Of course, in the administration of transportation we
have preferred to this point to have the drivers and the
children in charge of the principal to which these—the
school to which these children attend, and we have done
this up to this point. Last year when we did hurriedly
arrange transfer of pupils there were a few exceptions
to that.
Q Is there a principal at the elementary school of
Inborden?
A Yes.
278
Q Is he in charge of the busses that serve the In-
borden School?
A No, he is in charge of the high school. I mean the
high school principal is in charge of transportation for
both schools there.
Q Yet there is another man who is a principal of the
elementary school?
A Of the elementary school, that’s right.
Q Would it be—would there be a simplification of
the bus routes if in the Inborden-Enfield zone one of the
schools taught, say, grades one through six and the other
school taught grades seven through twelve, all the chil
dren in that zone were brought into the zone and then
transfers made across and around the mile and a half
that you have talked about?
A When you are speaking of simplification, are you
asking about saving transportation distance?
Q Yes.
A As far as the school bus is concerned?
Q Yes.
A I don’t know that it would be by pairing only,
unless you are going to pick up all of the children on
one road and then take them to the individual schools
where they belonged.
Q That is what I asked.
A Then this is an administration problem— who has
responsibility for those children when they are riding
on those busses. Is it the principal in one school or the
principal of the other school? And somebody must be
in charge of them.
Q Well, it seemed to me you have solved that to some
extent when you have two principals at two Inborden
Schools and yet one of them is in charge of the busses
that serve both schools, and you already have that.
MR. JOSEY: I object to that. That is a statement.
Are you asking him a question about that?
Q (Mr. Kennedy) You already have one principal in
charge of busses going to two different schools?
A Right.
Q Each of which is headed by a separate principal?
279
A That’s correct, but they are so close together—
just across the street from one another— that the prin
cipal of the elementary school still has control of dis
cipline problems of his particular children— the high
school principal of high school children and also of the
drivers. Because of the proximity of those, why, the
two can work together on that as far as that is con
cerned, but if there is some distance between them,
why, it does so pose a problem.
Q Do you run high school and elementary students
on the same busses that go to the Inborden— the two In-
borden Schools?
A Yes. Yes.
Q You mentioned the difficulty about transferring
some library books and equipment. Would there be any
library books or equipment that would have to be trans
ferred between, say, Tillery Chapel and Dawson if that
area of the County down there were zoned and children
assigned there by geographic zones?
A No, I don’t believe that would be involved.
Q Is the only transferring of equipment and books
between the schools that are now teaching high school
grades?
A Those children that were assigned to predom
inantly white schools from Negro schools last year, now,
those library books serve those children, and I do not
know whether there would be any transfer back to where
those children are going to attend next year. This has
not been worked out. It may be that they will remain
where they are.
Q Mr. Overman, a little earlier you had shown me
copies of letters dealing with the Scotland Neck City Ad
ministrative Unit, and have been kind enough to furnish
copies for counsel. Are you referring to the letters now,
sir?
A Yes.
Q I direct your attention to the letter dated May 15,
1969, to Frank P. Shields, Chairman, Board of Educa
tion, Scotland Neck City Schools, over your signature,
W. Henry Overman, Superintendent of Halifax County
Schools. There appears to be a tabulation in the middle
of page one. Is that substantially correct, sir?
280
A There has been some change since that time be
cause of—more forms have come in since that date.
Q Do you know what those changes are, sir?
A I give you total figures at that time I believe.
1029 is the total for Scotland Neck. And I believe the
totals here, 713, 261—that is 974.
Q Do you know if there are any changes, or what
the changes are for the figures under the column headed
“White” and the column headed “Negro” on the May 15th
letter?
A I know the letter all right, but you want to know
what the changes are as far as division between white
and Negro?
Q Yes, sir.
A And I am looking for another sheet that might give
me information on that, that I can’t locate for the mo
ment.
Q Mr. Overman, let me interrupt so as not to— so we
can proceed.
MR. KENNEDY: Counsel has copies of this?
MR. JOSEY: Yes.
MR. CREW: Yes.
MR. K EN N ED Y : I’d like to have the Reporter mark
the May 15th letter as Government’s Exhibit # 3, please,
to this deposition, and the May 16th letter as Govern
ment’s Exhibit # 4 .
(MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION)
A I used it.
MR. KENNEDY: Let’s go back on the record.
A Well, I used the figure 1029 as total for Scotland
Neck as we knew it on July the ninth. Now this was
May the 15th. Those totals amounted to 974 I believe.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Right, sir.
A And I do not have a breakdown so far as race is
concerned for the figures.
Q A little earlier today you stated, I believe, that
before making up the map, the zone lines submitted
April 1969, the desegregation plan, that you had some
idea of the number of white and Negro children residing
in each of those areas, and that you were going to secure
281
that information. Have you been able to find that in
formation?
A May I ask Mr. Currin for that map, please, to give
the race breakdown in the various areas. I gave you
a sheet that would give you a better breakdown than
the map.
Q Can you give us the breakdown both by area and
sub-area by race, please?
MR. JOSEY: Let me go off the record.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Mr. Overman, other than the teach
ers who formerly taught at the Scotland Neck School last
year who have not returned to teach in the system this
year, has the creation of the Scotland Neck district af
fected or have you lost any other teachers because of
the creation of the school district?
A Not because of that. Let’s see if I understand your
question now. By the creation of the Scotland Neck
School Unit we have not lost pupils directly.
Q Teachers, sir?
A I mean teachers. Because they have been allotted
on a basis of the figures that I gave you last and that
many pupils deducted from our actual attendance last
year. Now we have lost teachers in our unit, but it was
because of low enrollment and, of course, attendance,
too. Enrollment primarily. In addition to those from
Scotland Neck. But it was not because of the creation
of the Scotland Neck Unit.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
MR. KENNEDY: Let’s go back on the record. I’d
like to have a document entitled “State Plan, Halifax
County Schools, December 17, 1968,” marked by the Re
porter as Government’s Exhibit # 5 to this deposition.
(MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION)
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Mr. Overman, what is the docu
ment entitled Plaintiff’s Exhibit # 5 , “State Plan, Hali
fax County Schools, December 17, 1968”—what do those
figures show generally, sir?
282
A It shows the proposed plan of school organization
recommended in the State survey report.
Q Is this the interim plan or the final?
A The interim plan. And it shows the grades to be
in each school, the expected enrollment for 1969-70. The
first column under that shows the total. Those in paren
thesis show the non-white pupils and then the other
columns would be teachers that would be assigned nor
mally, 1969-70.
MR. CREW: I think he said ‘non-white’ and I be
lieve he meant white.
A Those in parenthesis, non-white— I’m sorry. Those
in parenthesis are white.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Now are these figures in any way
dependent upon free choice?
A No. That would be zoning and pairing.
Q What zones would give you these figures, sir?
A The zones as established in the State review— I
mean the State------
Q Interim plan, sir? Interim plan we have already
discussed?
A Interim plan.
Q We have already discussed that at some length I
believe?
A Yes. Pages 15 and 16 of the report.
Q Yes, sir. Would one significant result of this plan
be the reduction of the total number of high schools;
you would be left with approximately four high schools?
A Four high schools.
Q And you have now, if I am not mistaken, nine high
schools— eight or nine high schools?
A Left in the administrative unit?
Q Right now?
A Yes. We have— there would be eight.
Q Does this plan differ with the plan that was even
tually submitted in February 1969 to the Justice De
partment?
A Would you repeat it?
283
Q Does this plan and this organization differ from
the organization and the plan submitted to the Justice
Department about February 1968?
A Yes, there are some differences.
Q This plan does not have free choice, the one here
we’re talking about, the State plan, but the one sub
mitted to the Justice Department did have some elements
of free choice, did it?
A Right.
Q Does this State plan— did it have any provision for
transfers between districts based on race of children?
A No recommendation about that in the report of
the State survey.
Q Did you get an opinion on whether this State plan
would comply with the requirements of the federal law
pertaining to desegregation of the schools?
A There was no references to that in the report.
Q Did your attorney or any attorney give you a legal
opinion as to whether this State plan would comply with
the current requirements of federal law for desegrega
tion of schools?
A I think in the discussion it had been stated that
this would, yes, as there is complete zoning and pairing
in some instances.
Q Is it true that in each of the elementary schools
and each of the high schools there would be some Negroes
and some whites?
A Yes.
Q And there is no— are there any schools under the
State plan that would have students just of one race?
A No. Each school would have some of at least two
races.
Q Yes, sir.
A This is the State plan, now, we are referring to.
Q Right, yes, sir. What were the reasons that this
plan was not—this State plan was not submitted to the
Justice Department in February of 1969, sir?
MR. JOSEY: Object.
MR. K EN N ED Y : Is it something— okay. You can
answer, Mr. Overman.
A Well, there is one reason that I recall, that moving
toward the long-range plan would be a better arrange-
284
ment in some instances, and the facilities, without too
much moving, was another thing. And it would provide
for a balance of races better because, as you notice, that
there were only six and four in one zone of white pupils
that would attend certain schools.
Q Maybe I missed something along there. You say
this State plan would provide a better balance of stu
dents?
A No, no.
Q No, it wouldn’t?
A No. The plan that was presented to the Justice
Department.
Q The one that included some free choice?
A I understand your question was why was this plan
not adopted by the Board.
Q Really, not submitted to the Justice Department.
A I beg your pardon.
Q Why was this plan not submitted to the Justice
Department?
A And I gave you the reasons of some changes, this
was suggested.
Q Is administering free choice simply from an ad
ministration point of view more difficult than zoning
children into geographic zones, other things being
equal? . . . Is my question clear, Mr. Overman?
A I don’t know that I know the meaning of that.
Q Does it require more manhours to administer a
freedom of choice plan for pupil assignment than it
would to administer a simple geographic plan of pupil
assignment?
A I don’t know that there would be a great deal of
difference except for the moving that would take place,
putting mobile units and temporary quarters at different
places, but that would require considerable time.
Q Did the County system— correction. Was there
some discussion in the past six months with reference
to the possible loss of an instructional teacher due to the
loss of children that would be taken out of the County
School System by the Scotland Neck City School System?
A An instructional teacher?
Q Yes, or an instructional supervisor.
A Supervisor, yes.
285
Q Can you tell us about that, please?
A Well, the removal of the children to the Scotland
Neck Unit, plus the loss of attendance last year, has
caused our basic allotment of teachers from the State
to be fewer than the requirement for three supervisors,
State paid supervisors, that’s correct.
Q Well, have you—will you this coming year have
fewer State supervisors?
A State paid supervisors.
Q Will you have fewer or will the number remain
the same?
A Will we actually have fewer?
Q Yes, sir.
A We hope to retain the third one.
Q Yes, sir. What is the lowest— I’m sorry.
A It would not be a State allotted one under this
plan.
Q Will the Halifax County Unit pay for that super
visor?
A. Yes.
Q What is the loss of attendance you’re referring to,
what is the quantity—how many children, about?
A More than three hundred in average daily at
tendance.
Q How many— do we have information—well, as to
how many children would be lost to the Scotland Neck
City System from the Halifax County System?
A How many pupils?
Q Yes, sir.
A Will go to Scotland Neck Unit, that come from the
Halifax County Unit?
Q That went to Halifax County schools last year.
A Yes, this is the figure I gave you, the 1029.
Q 1029?
A Yes.
Q So it is better than three times as many students
were lost to the Halifax County System by the creation
of the Scotland Neck System than were lost due to drop
in attendance; the loss by the Scotland Neck Unit was
three times as great due to the attendance drop?
A Yes, approximately.
286
Q Do you have the estimated numbers of teachers by
race who will be teaching in Halifax County Schools this
fall, sir?
A Yes.
Q Can you give us those totals, please?
A The way you have asked that question I don’t have
the numbers at this time. We would have to do some
subtracting.
Q Can you tell me in what form you do have the
figures, sir?
A I have the form in all teachers that would be as
signed to the schools in the Halifax County School Unit
broken down between elementary and high school, and
then the total. And then I can go back and pick up the
individual schools and tell you the races of these teachers
so far as we know at this time. They may be different
before school opens because of resignation.
Q How many vacancies do you have right now to fill?
A That I can’t tell you exactly.
Q Do you know if it is over thirty?
A At this time I’d say it is less than thirty.
Q Less than?
A Yes.
MR. K EN N ED Y : With the permission of counsel I’d
like to go on to something else and get this by copies—
if you could make some copies of that materials, Mr.
Overman— and put it as an exhibit. How many pages is
it, Mr. Overman?
THE W ITNESS: Now this is just done in pencil, in
formation I got up hurriedly this morning, and it is not
in condition to be copied.
MR. K EN N ED Y : Well, would you be willing in the
next week or so to tabulate that information, the num
ber of teachers by race at each school, an estimate for
this fall, and mail it— a copy to each of us?
THE W ITNESS: Yes.
MR. K EN N ED Y : Would that be agreeable with you,
Mr. Crew and Mr. Josey?
MR. CREW: Yes.
MR. JOSEY: Yes.
287
MR. K EN N ED Y : All right. We will go on to some
thing else. Thank you, Mr. Overman.
THE WITNESS: You want copies to you, Mr. Ken
nedy, and to anyone else?
MR. KENNEDY: Mr. Josey and Miss Morgan.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) The statute setting up the Little-
ton-Lake Gaston School System, you told us, has not been
voted on and approved by the voters?
A That’s right.
Q Supposing that it will be approved, how many
children will be lost from the Halifax County Unit to
the Littleton-Lake Gaston System?
A Approximately 65 to 100, if they— all of the chil
dren live in that area attend that school unit.
Q What is the race of those children, sir?
A I’d say for the most part they would be Negroes.
Q Where do they now go to school, sir?
A Mclver School in Halifax County.
Q Do you have any children that are now, in the last
year, went to the Littleton School which is in Warren
County, sir?
A Yes.
Q How many of those children?
A I estimated around 150 total from Halifax County
that go into Littleton in Warren County.
Q Is that right in the Town of Littleton?
A Some in the town and some in the area outside.
Q It is a school—is Littleton School right in the
Town of Littleton?
A It is, yes.
Q Is that a predominantly white school?
A Predominantly white.
Q These approximately 150 students from Halifax
County who go there, are most of them white children?
A Most of them are white. I can’t give you the
exact number because I am certain there are some that
are Negroes that are already going.
Q Where will those children that go to Littleton—
the children that now are going to Littleton go this fall
with the voters’ approval?
A Continue going there so far as I know.
288
Q Would they all be residing within the boundary
lines of the Littleton-Lake Gaston School Unit?
A No.
Q How many Halifax County residents reside in the
boundary lines set up for Littleton-Lake Gaston School
Unit?
A Now I do not have the approximate numbers.
Q An estimate.
A An estimate has been made of 134. That is out
side of the Town of Littleton I believe. Now how many
are in the Town of Littleton I do not know.
Q I’m trying to get at the number of children and
their race that live in Halifax County, whether in that
portion of the Littleton area that is in Halifax County
or that portion of the Littleton area that is not in Hali
fax County?
A I cannot give you that total number.
Q Do you know who has the number?
A No, unless some members of the Board of Educa
tion of the Littleton-Lake Gaston School Unit does have
it.
Q Do you know if anybody has done a survey to de
termine those figures?
A We have not in our unit made the survey.
Q If the Littleton-Lake Gaston School Unit is ap
proved by the voters, will it cause the loss of any teachers
to the Halifax County Unit?
A It could if these pupils attend there.
Q Am I correct in restating what you have told us,
that there will be between 65 and, say, a hundred stu
dents who now go to Mclver School will be lost to------
A That is the best estimate we can make.
Q Something around the 150 students who now go
to the Littleton School will be lost also?
A Well, they are already attending, of course.
Q Yes, sir. They will continue to attend?
A Yes. So far as teacher allotment is concerned that
150 would not affect loss of any teachers in our unit
because they are being—they have teachers allotted for
those pupils because they attended before. The State
teacher allotment is based on the number of children
that have attended before. Now in the creation of a new
289
administrative unit, then there has to be an adjustment
between the two units.
Q Do you have a memorandum concerning the Little-
ton-Lake Gaston School System?
A No.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Mr. Overman, you know Mr.
Henry L. Harrison, don’t you, that is sitting in the room
here with us?
A Henry L. Harrison.
Q He is a former Board member of the Halifax
County Unit?
A Yes, he is.
Q Did he ever go to you and ask you for the infor
mation about the number of students by race in the Scot
land Neck area?
A I don’t recall that Mr. Harrison did.
Q Anybody working on behalf of Mr. Harrison ask
you for the number of children by race in the Scotland
Neck area?
A I don’t recall that that was asked. Now we did
conduct a survey, as I have stated, of children attending
school in Scotland Neck at the two locations, the main—
well, those that were living in Scotland Neck. This was
the first survey.
Q Who conducted that survey?
A Mr. Simpson.
Q On whose behalf?
A On behalf of the Halifax County Board of Edu
cation.
Q Approximately when?
A Actually, there was a period of time that he worked
on it, and it. was after the vote on the Scotland Neck
Unit, I believe, and I would say it was during April or
May.
Q Do you know any persons who came to anybody
working for the Halifax County Board in the past year
asking about information for the number of students or
teachers of Halifax County in the Scotland Neck area?
A We have had so many questions of that sort I
wouldn’t say yes or no.
290
Q Who were some of those persons?
A I just don’t recall.
MR. CREW: I object. He said he didn’t know.
Didn’t know whether any had come.
MR. K EN N ED Y : He said there were some, sir.
MR. CREW: I think he said he didn’t know, and
I don’t see how he can answer them by name.
MR. KENNEDY: Thank you very much, Mr. Over
man.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS TOOK
PLACE ON JULY 15, 1969.)
MR. KENNEDY: I’d like to ask Mr. Overman a
couple more questions.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Mr. Overman, can you briefly out
line some of the effects on the Halifax County School
System caused by the creation of the Scotland Neck
City Administrative Unit, please?
A Of course, the number of teachers lost to our unit,
based on the anticipated enrollment at the Scotland Neck
Unit, within the Scotland Neck Unit—there was some
reductions in the State allocations of funds and because
of this unit, and because many items of State alloca
tions—funds are based on the size of the unit, and an
other thing, we did not receive the allotment of three
State-paid supervisors because of the same thing, that
our unit dropped below the required number of teachers
for three supervisors.
Q What do the supervisors do?
A The supervisors work with the teachers in the
schools, upon request. They serve as resource persons,
teachers. They confer with them on good teaching pro
cedure, and I would like to call them helping teachers
more than anything else. It is a service for the teachers,
that would be helpful to them, and they hold meetings
with teachers. Sometimes on grade levels, and often
times on grade levels. Subject levels in the high school
area. And, generally speaking, they are for the help
and assistance of the teachers within the classroom.
Q Is there any effect on the number of courses or the
kinds of courses that the County is able to provide?
291
A No. No, the Scotland Neck Unit did not cause any
change in the courses that would be provided in the re
maining schools, is what you are speaking of?
Q Particular vocational type courses at the other
schools, or something like this.
A Well, there is one thing about vocational allot
ment—we have not received it yet and so far as we know
the number of teachers that we will receive will prob
ably not be based on the number of children in our unit.
I am not certain of that because we haven’t received
that allotment. Now what I was talking about was what
is called the basic allotment of teachers.
Q What about the other teachers, like vocational type
teachers or special education teachers, or reading spe
cialists, and this kind?
A Well, special education teachers—we would prob
ably lose one teacher because there was a formula in
effect last year. Now this may be changed so far as
that is concerned. It may be on the basis of needs rather
than a formula for this year. For example, special edu
cation teachers for the mentally retarded and the educa-
ble— I mean the trainable retarded; the number of edu-
cable retarded was based on one teacher per thousand
pupils, and, of course, if this formula is put into effect
for this particular school year, next school year, it would
reduce the allotment by one teacher, but it is my under
standing that consideration is being given to actual needs
in the allotment of these teachers for next year. Now,
this is unofficial.
Q When will you know for sure, sir?
A I would not know that.
Q Sometime before------
A These regulations are often delayed at the State
Department level until after the General Assembly has
adjourned, and knowing what appropriations have been
made in the various categories, we hope to know soon.
Q Would it have any effect on the number of speech
therapists in the county schools?
A No. They are also based on the requests made and
the amount of funds that they have to supply and, of
course, they have to meet certain requirements so far
as—well, speech therapists not necessarily, because we
292
have the need for more than we are allotted by the State.
Q Will it have any effect on the number of music or
art teachers?
A No. They are not allotted by category. The art
and music teachers are just a— regular basic allotted
teachers, and when they teach art and music, why, they
are taught by those teachers— the basic allotment.
Q Will it have any effect on the administrative staff,
the number of persons on the staff or the resources avail
able to the administration of the school system?
A Well, not the number of persons.
Q Is there something else that would be effected?
A Well, of course, the local finances would naturally
be less because of the creation of this unit, and we, of
course, need the services as much as we did prior to the
withdrawal of the Scotland Neck pupils at the unit for
programs that have already been planned and the fact
that we have the same area to serve so far as every
section of the County is covered in our unit, and it does
call for more local finances to carry out the same pro
gram that we had planned for the unit prior to the
establishment of the Scotland Neck Unit.
Q Can you think of other effects on the Halifax
County Unit, other effects, say, in the school program
or administration that we haven’t covered already?
A No.
Q Can you think of the effects that the creation of
the Scotland Neck School System has on the desegrega
tion of the Halifax County Unit?
A Well, assuming that these pupils may be allowed
to go to Scotland Neck on a tuition basis, it is my belief
from the figures that we have that more white would be
accepted in that unit than Negro and it would naturally
reduce the number of white pupils in our unit— the per
centage.
Q Of course, you have also told us yesterday about
some four hundred white students, approximately, who
live inside the City of Scotland Neck who will not be in
the Halifax County schools this fall?
A That’s correct.
293
Q That also affects desegregation— isn’t that true?
A To some extent, because there are a larger number
of whites than Negroes living in Scotland Neck. That
would not affect the total picture— well, it would from
last year to the corresponding year, yes, by perhaps two
percentage more.
Q Well, you told us—you gave us figures yesterday
of approximately 2400 white students in the recent year
in the Halifax County Schools, then we later talked
about some seven hundred, approximately, white students
who will be in— expected to be in the Scotland Neck
School this comnig year?
A Well, the seven hundred would include those liv
ing in Scotland Neck district.
Q Right.
A And also those that might have expressed a choice
to go to Scotland Neck School by paid tuition.
Q Right. That is between 25 and 30 percent of the
white students of Halifax County, formerly of Halifax
County School System?
A Yes.
Q How many courses are currently required by the
State for graduation—high school courses?
A Sixteen by the State. In the Halifax County Unit
we require eighteen units. We require in Halifax County
eighteen units. You’re talking about high school grad
uation?
Q Yes.
A We require in Halifax County eighteen units. Now
the State has recommended that we require eighteen
units, but the State Board of Education has never made
that definite.
Q Are there any educational advantages to the pupils
in the Halifax County system caused by the creation of
the Scotland Neck System?
A Any advantages?
Q Educational.
A No, I can’t say there has been. Now, you’re talk
ing about our unit and not the Scotland Neck Unit?
Q Right.
A Yes.
294
Q I believe we covered yesterday the possible educa
tional advantages to the children who will be in the
Scotland Neck Unit?
A Yes.
Q When did you first become aware that it would
be— might be necessary— strike that. When did you be
come aware that the Scotland Neck School officials might
be interested in leasing the junior high school campus?
A Well, this was brought before the Board of Edu
cation in the June meeting, and that was the first Mon
day in June.
Q Is that the first time you became aware of it?
A Not the first time I had become aware of it.
Q When was the first time?
A It had been talked, but nothing in an official way.
Q When was the first time you became aware of it?
A Oh, I don’t know. I couldn’t pinpoint that, Mr.
Kennedy.
Q You told us it was expected to be approximately a
thousand students in the Scotland Neck System this fall?
A That was on the 29th.
Q The 29th. And yet apparently those thousand chil
dren— well, could those thousand children be housed at
the main Scotland Neck School campus, including the
junior high school campus?
A No, not with the facilities that they have, nor
would they have room in my opinion to put relocatable
units on the campus. No.
Q Was this problem------
A When I say not room, there certainly wouldn’t be
any space for the children to play on the outside.
Q When did you first become aware that this might
be a problem, either through your own study or through
somebody else’s conversation?
A That there would be need for this?
Q Yes, sir.
A After the survey was conducted, freedom of choice
survey, then we knew that that would be a problem.
Q Was this when you first became aware of it? I’m
asking when you first become aware that there might
be?
295
A Well, this is the only way that we could determine
the need, you see, is by the number of children that chose
to go.
Q Were you quoted in the newspaper------
MR. CREW : I think I would object to any quote in
the newspaper.
MR. KENNEDY: Okay.
MR. CREW: Regardless of what the newspaper would
be.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) When did you become aware that
the junior high school campus was not within the pro
posed boundary limits of the Scotland Neck School Sys
tem?
A Well, I knew that from the time that the bill was
drawn for the Legislature—presented to the Legislature.
Q Did you point this out to anybody?
A Did I point it out to anybody in conversation?
Q Yes, sir.
A Perhaps so.
Q Did you and Mr. Currin discuss it; did you point
it out to Mr. Currin?
MR. JOSEY: I object to what they discussed.
MR. K EN N ED Y : I’m asking if he had a discussion
with Mr. Currin.
MR. JOSEY: I know it, and I object.
A I am sure we have discussed it, but just when I
cannot remember, and I have discussed it with many
people, when somebody asked me the question, so far as
that is concerned.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Did you discuss it with Mr.
Josey?
A I don’t recall. There may have been some mention
made about it.
Q Can you give us the names of the persons, other
than Mr. Currin, that you did discuss it with?
MR. JOSEY: I object.
A No, because as many people as I talk to about
school and the things that go on, especially if they are
official—just most anybody would engage me in conver
sation about them and I would not try to recall the names
of those persons. It would be impossible for me to do it.
296
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Prior to March 1, 1969, had you
learned through conversations with persons involved in
the Scotland Neck School System, who were working on
behalf of the Scotland Neck School System, what number
of students they expected to have in the Scotland Neck
Schools?
A I got this information from newspaper publicity,
that there would be approximately one thousand.
MR. JOSEY: I object.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Did you learn from anybody con
nected with, or working on behalf of, the Scotland Neck
Schools or the School System that would be created any
thing that would lead you to believe that— these per
sons— any number less than one thousand students at the
Scotland Neck Schools?
A No. And I might say if the children were allowed
to go outside of—from the outside of the Scotland Neck
School Unit------
MR. K EN N ED Y : Pm not sure I quite understand it.
MR. JO SEY: Let’s go off the record for a minute.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
MR. K EN N ED Y : I think I have finished. Thank
you, Mr. Overman.
EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEY:
Q Now, Mr. Overman, this arrangement that has been
made with the Scotland Neck School in leasing the junior
high building there, this is not the first time that Hali
fax County Schools have made this type of thing some
what in reverse, is that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q As a matter of fact, some several years ago—two
or three years ago— the Roanoke Rapids City School op
erated the Chaloner School, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q In fact, that school was physically within the
boundary lines of Roanoke Rapids School, is that correct?
A That’s correct,
Q Now, at that time was the—was race predominated
in the Chaloner School?
A The Negroes— in fact, it was all Negro.
297
Q Then at sometime within the last two or three
years, maybe four years, the— you went— the Halifax
County School Board went through the same procedure
somewhat in reverse, that is, that the Roanoke Rapids
City School—the Halifax County Administrative Unit
asked that the line be changed to put Chaloner— to more
or less withdraw the line of Roanoke Rapids School and
to put the Chaloner School inside the limits of the Hali
fax County Administrative Unit— isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q And that thereafter the Board of Education ap
proved that, so that for the last several years the Chal
oner School, although physically within the boundary lines
of the Halifax County Administrative Unit, is— in fact
owned the real property— is in fact owned by the Roa
noke Rapids City Unit— isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q And, in fact, the Halifax County Unit leases for
a dollar a year in somewhat generally the same type of
lease that we have with the— that the City of Scotland
Neck Unit has with Halifax County Board, the Halifax
County Board has with the Roanoke Rapids Board on
the Chaloner School, isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct. You recall that I made the state
ment that the lease agreement between Scotland Neck
and Halifax County Board has not been executed so far
as I know, because we have not received a copy of that
in return, but the lease agreement is very similar, the
one proposed, to the one that is in effect between Halifax
County Unit and the Roanoke Rapids School Unit.
Q All right, now, and in— as a matter of fact, the
lease that was drawn up between the Scotland Neck
School Unit and Halifax County Unit was drawn up
either in your office or by the Halifax County Board at
torney, wasn’t it?
A Yes.
Q Now, isn’t it true that within a mile of Scotland
Neck, or at the Bakers School, which is predominantly
colored— Negro— you had empty classrooms last year—■
isn’t that correct?
A Yes. We had the capacity for more pupils.
298
Q And they were permanent classrooms—isn’t that
correct?
A Yes.
Q So, that as far as the children’s education, assum
ing that the thousand and twenty-nine students do attend
Scotland Neck, there is no question in your mind as an
educator as to which children would need the facility of
the junior high, is it, as between—
A No, assuming that the children are going to at
tend this certain school.
Q That’s right.
A Yes.
Q That’s right.
Q And where would you— where would you consider
possibly the break-off point between which unit would
actually need this facility more, that is, a break-off point
in the number of students that Scotland Neck were to
have? Do you have some opinion as to that?
A The need would be greater in the Scotland Neck
Unit for the junior high school location.
Q But my question is really related to— strike that.
That is assuming that we, the Scotland Neck School Unit,
has approximately a thousand to a thousand twenty-nine
students, but my question now is related to the question
as to how many students can the Scotland Neck City
Administrative Unit adequately take care of, educate,
with reasonably adequate facilities if they used only the
old main Scotland Neck School facilities, the ones that
the school administrative unit actually owns. Do you
have some opinion in general? I know it is a question—
A Not to exceed seven hundred pupils.
Q Now, how many busses does the Scotland Neck
School, this past year, how many busses came into it
and served the nine hundred or so students that attend
ed— or thousand students, or however many there were
— that attended the Scotland Neck School facilities, that
is, junior high and the Scotland Neck School facilities,
approximately?
A Ten busses.
Q Ten busses. Now, obviously, the city school system
has no authority and will not operate any school busses,
is that correct?
299
A Yes.
Q Next year under the Scotland Neck City Adminis
trative Unit?
A (Witness nods head in the affirmative)
Q And the students will, of course, be not only an
equal number under the Scotland Neck System, but will
in fact be a greater number, that is, projected greater,
maybe a hundred greater, than attended Scotland Neck
School last year, is that correct?
A I believe there were 969 that attended Scotland
Neck School last year.
Q Just under eighty—maybe seventy or eighty.
A Yes.
Q Now, at the same time there will be maybe about
a thousand and twenty-nine students less in the Halifax
County Unit as a result of Scotland Neck’s operation
this coming year, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And not only that, but I believe you testified that
there were over three hundred who— that is, the average
daily attendance was three hundred less for the year 1969-
70 than there— I mean 1968-69, than there were for the
previous year, therefore, you have a drop in your enroll
ment to that extent, is that correct?
A Yes. Speaking primarily of average daily attend
ance?
Q Yes.
A It reflects the enrollment, 250.
Q Yes. Now that three hundred you have talked
about has no connection one way or another with Scot
land Neck Schools, does it?
A No.
Q As a matter of fact—
A It included the whole unit, including Scotland Neck.
Q Isn’t it true the Scotland Neck and Aurelian
Springs area are the only two areas— strike that.
That the Scotland Neck School area and the William
R. Davie School area are the only two areas in this
County that have over the past number of years increased
in student population— isn’t that true?
300
A Well, there are some other school locations where
the students have increased in number— Eastman being
one, and the Inborden School in Enfield.
Q But that was because you closed other Negro
schools, smaller schools, and consolidated Negro schools
to form those— those schools, isn’t that correct?
A Well, that was done many years ago, but not with
in recent years.
Q But the total school population in every area in
this County Unit, except the William R. Davie and the
Scotland Neck School areas, have generally— school popu
lation has gradually decreased year by year?
A That is correct, yes.
Q Now—
A You’re talking about the total rather than the in
dividual schools now?
Q That’s right.
A Yes.
Q That’s right. Is it not true, too, that the Negro—
that the Negro—the percentage of Negro to white stu
dents in the last five or six or seven years—has that de
creased or increased, do you know?
A The percentage?
Q Yes. The percentage, Negro to white.
A I would say that it’s been about the same. Now
our figures reflect some children that had attended else
where and are now attending school in Halifax County.
Q What is that, sir?
A Well, they were Indians, in particular. The Hali-
wa School in Warren County was closed, that is, the high
school portion of it, and so those pupils living in Halifax
County attended Halifax County Schools. The percentage
has not been materially changed.
Q In other words, we have lost—
A Some fewer white, is true, because of the loss to
private schools.
Q So, that as far as your opinion is, off-hand opinion
is, that the decrease in total student population year by
year has been approximately the same percentage-wise
of whites?
A For the past few years.
301
Q It has kept a continuous—more or less the same
balance over the years; there hasn’t been much variation
on the decrease in white or Negro?
A (Witness nods head in the affirmative)
Q Now, getting back to the Scotland Neck School,
isn’t it true that those ten busses, assuming that the
Scotland Neck School operates next year, those ten school
busses that are paid for— strike that.
That those ten busses that took students to Scotland
Neck School this year would no longer be needed in any
capacity by any school, isn’t that correct?
A I would have to say that there is a need for some
of these busses to eliminate a number of trips— more
than one— that have been operating for several years.
Q Well, I don’t really mean that you couldn’t use
them, but what I am saying is this: you eliminate those
ten busses next year— the cost of operation— eliminate
them completely, then you would still be able to have the
same number of busses that Halifax County Schools had
last year and operate in the same satisfactory manner
as far as you have been operating in the past?
A The same as ever, heretofore, yes.
Q Whoever pays for those school busses, and whoever
pays for the maintenance, for the purchase, for the bus
drivers, for the driver education, for the supervisors, for
everything that goes to— in the cost of operating those
ten busses will be eliminated by the creation of the Scot
land Neck School Administrative Unit next year?
A The operation of ten busses?
Q Right.
A Would be correct.
Q Now who—
A Unless they are utilized somewhere else.
Q Unless they are utilized. So that it would alleviate
some of the real problems that we have always had in
transportation?
A Some of the real problems, yes.
Q And you, of course, have no— have no opinion or
estimate, do you, of what a savings or what it costs to
operate ten busses for the Scotland Neck School last year,
do you?
302
A I do not, no. We’d have to figure that out on a
mileage basis, and I think the operating cost is around
sixteen cents per mile, including replacement costs, and
so on.
Q And you do not have the figures with you, or do
you have the figures as to the number of miles that those
ten busses travelled?
A We do have the figures but they are not available
here. They are down at the transportation building,
kept by the supervisor of transportation.
Q Now, I believe you answered Mr. Kennedy’s ques
tion as to whether or not there would be any educa
tional advantage that you could see in— for the students
in the Halifax County Unit as a result of the creation
of the Scotland Neck School Administrative Unit, and I
believe you said you knew of none, is that correct?
A Correct.
Q Now, Mr. Overman, it is possible in your opinion
from— as an expert educator to have a small school, that
is, a thousand students more or less, with additional
funds and it is possible, is it not, to raise the academic
standard of that unit, with the necessary funds, over a
unit that has some restriction on its funds— wouldn’t it?
A Well, to some extent. I would have to say that the
money raised by the special supplemental tax would pro
vide more money per child than in the Halifax County
Unit that does not have the supplementary tax.
Q And, of course, money is one of the things that—
in fact, it is probably the single greatest thing that—
that is, money per child spent, assuming it is spent rea
sonably wisely, probably the greatest single item as to
whether or not you are going to have a high academic
school— isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q And if— assuming— assuming, for the sake of this
question, that Scotland Neck does in fact in a year or
two, is able to maintain a school and operate a school
that is above the standard that it does at the present
time, or last year, that would be— that would be some
advantage to the students that are permitted to go— who
live in the Halifax County Unit area to go to that school,
303
some three or four hundred, it would be some advantage
to them, wouldn’t it?
A Well, it could be. I would have to put it that way,
because I really don’t know about curriculum arrange
ments and things of that sort.
Q In assuming that Scotland Neck could improve its
educational standards, then the students that attended—
were permitted to attend Scotland Neck School, whether
they lived inside the Town of Scotland Neck or whether
they lived outside, would gain some advantage; there
would be some educational advantage to those students,
wouldn’t it?
A Yes, certainly, by virtue of the fact that there is
more money per child available.
Q That is, assuming that Scotland Neck this—they
could get a superintendent as competent as Halifax
County and an assistant superintendent as competent as
Halifax County has, then Scotland Neck, by spending
twenty-five dollars per student more each year, should
be able to raise its academic standard, shouldn’t it?
A Well, it could. It could be. Now I am trying to
be careful there because I don’t know the kind of ar
rangement that is going to be made curriculum-wise.
Q At least it is possible?
A It is possible, yes, I’ll say that.
Q Now, as I understood, you said that by the number
of students— talking about just the students— that live
in the Town limits of Scotland Neck, that by law have
the definite right to attend the Scotland Neck School, just
considering those students only being taken out of the
school administrative unit of Halifax County, it would
only change the percentage of Negro to white approxi
mately two percentage points— isn’t that correct?
A That is about right.
Q That is, from seventy-eight point something per
centage Negro to eighty-two point?
A Yes.
Q Something in that neighborhood?
A Yes.
Q Do you know, under these choice forms that—
under the survey that Halifax County School conducted
304
in April or May, whether or not there were any Negro
students living outside the Town limits of Scotland Neck
who requested assignment to Scotland Neck School in
spite of the tuition plan?
A There were some. If you would allow me to get
the figures here. I may have misplaced them.
Q Well, there were some, is that correct?
A Yes, and I don’t recall the number. I believe this
is it.
Q Now, as far as when Mr. Kennedy asked you about
the effects on desegregation of the creation of the Scot
land Neck School System, I will ask you if in fact it
would be just as administratively easy for the Halifax
County School Board to implement generally the plan—
the interim plan of the State, with some modifications,
of course, with the Scotland Neck School Unit being in
existence as it would be if the Scotland Neck School
were not in existence?
A With the exceptions that I have already noted.
Q Well, administratively—
A Supervisory services so far as the State, the allot
ment is concerned.
Q But I’m not asking about the cutting down of
teachers and the effect in that regard, but administra
tively getting the students to the classes, bus routes, the
administrative problems that would exist for the Halifax
County School Board to implement a plan, the interim
plan of the State, would be no more difficult— whether
it is in 1969 or 1970—with the Scotland Neck School
Administrative Unit being set up than it would be if
Scotland Neck was in the county system, would it?
A The interim plan, you’re speaking of, primarily?
Q Yes, sir.
A I think it could be implemented without difficulty.
The long-range plan— if you’re speaking about that—
when we are thinking in terms of larger high schools
there might be some effect on this.
Q Well, on the long-range plan, now, you still would
have a unit of approximately nine to ten thousand stu
dents in the county, wouldn’t you?
A Yes.
305
Q So that it still, by the creation of the Scotland
Neck School Administrative Unit, in no way brings the
number of students of the Halifax County Unit below
any criteria that either is set by the Governor’s Com
mission or by the new proposal that they made in the
Legislature this past time, or by the— this book published
by—the high schools in the South, a fact book that was
mentioned by Mr. Kennedy, or any other criteria; it
doesn’t bring Halifax County Unit down in number of
students below any of those criteria, does it?
A I am not familiar with all the criteria you are
talking about, but certainly so far as number of pupils
are concerned, of course, we do know that we have geo
graphic conditions that hinder us somewhat in the or
ganization.
Q Yes, sir.
A Of high schools, particularly.
Q In fact, that is one of the main administrative
difficulties of this County, as big as it is?
A That would be with Scotland Neck or—
Q Or without?
A Or without Scotland Neck, that is true.
Q And, of course, at least a large proportion, a large
percentage, a large number of the students that are
brought into Brawley, that go to Brawley High School,
are brought from areas as far as fifteen miles away
from Scotland Neck, aren’t they?
A The high school pupils, some of them are.
Q Yes, sir. Some of which are in fact closer or al
most as close certainly, maybe closer, to Inborden School
than they are to Brawley?
A About equal distance, some of them, yes.
Q So that the— even the long-range plan of the State,
the creation of a consolidated high school somewhere be
tween Dawson and Enfield, the students that even live
in the vicinity of Scotland Neck, that is, the students
outside the Town, would still travel only about ten to
twelve miles to such a consolidated—twelve to fifteen
miles— would travel that far— and you would have enough
students to fill that high school without Scotland Neck
for that high school to meet the minimum number of
306
criteria of the Governor’s Commission’s report—isn’t that
correct?
A Yes. We now have enrolled, or did have enrolled
last year, more than six hundred in the high school in
the Brawley School last year.
Q And how many in Inborden, which is Enfield?
A Inborden, some over four hundred. If you want
the exact number—
Q Well, no, sir. And approximately how many in the
Enfield School?
A Enfield, a hundred seventy-some.
Q That is close to twelve hundred students for just
a high school available without Scotland Neck, isn’t that
correct?
A Yes.
_ Q And under the long-range plan of the State, the
high school was— the one high school for the southeastern
area was not to be located in Scotland Neck in any event,
was to be located near the Dawson community, in that
area, isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q Now, I believe you testified yesterday that there
were approximately five million dollars worth of prop
erty, real estate, or taxable property, which was— which
is presently located in the Scotland Neck School Admin
istrative Unit boundaries, is that correct— approximately
five million dollars?
A Somewhat less than five million dollars, we are
talking about.
. Q Yes> sir. Now, this five million dollars, property,
is not taken out of the taxable property for the County
for County schools, is it?
A No.
Q _ It would still be taxed just as it was before the
creation of the school administrative unit— this tax__the
County ad valorem tax would still be levied on that five
million dollars worth of property and that County tax
would then go into the general fund of the County, and
that money would then be distributed on a per-student
basis to the various units, isn’t that correct?
307
A Yes, it would. Of course, when you say the gen
eral fund, it is the general school fund.
Q Yes, the general school fund.
A And then be distributed on the basis of the num
ber of pupils attending each unit.
Q As a matter of fact, that is the way the Roanoke
Rapids and Weldon Unit is done, and has been done for
years, where they actually pay more taxes in those towns
for school purposes than they receive back for their own
students, isn’t that correct?
A It would certainly be true of Roanoke Rapids. I
don’t know about the Weldon Unit.
Q Well, certainly it is true of Roanoke Rapids?
A Yes.
Q And chances are that that would be true of Scot
land Neck, that five million concentrated amount in that
small area; the amount that they would receive back, of
course, it would depend on how many students are there,
isn’t that correct?
A Yes, sir.
MR. K EN N ED Y : I object to that. You should not
be asking for speculation.
MR. JOSEY: If this is the only question that called
for speculation, I would withdraw it, but we have been
speculating for two days.
MR. K EN N ED Y : I think we can get at it another
way.
MR. JOSEY: I don’t mind.
Q (Mr. Josey) So that the Scotland Neck School
Administrative_ Unit— strike that. The Halifax County
Unit would still be getting the same amount of local
funds, federal funds, State funds, basically per student
for the Halifax County Unit as it did before the crea
tion of the Scotland Neck Unit, isn’t that correct?
A Oh, yes.
Q And, as a matter of fact, when you talk about the
loss of teachers, you are talking about the loss or the
total number of teachers, and you are not talking about
any loss basically of the number of teachers per— or
number of teacher-pupil ratio, are you?
A No.
308
Q And, as a matter of fact, on these speech thera
pists, people of that kind, you may end up with more
teachers per student in the Halifax County Unit next—
in 1969-70 because of the creation of the Scotland Neck
Unit than you did last year, isn’t that correct?
A Possibly a few, yes. Of course, not all children
have speech defects, and there would be some that were
being taught by speech teachers that will be in the Scot
land Neck School Unit, too. I’m sure of that.
Q So your pupil to teacher ratio may be less, that is,
you may be in a better position from a teaching standard
standpoint next year because of the creation of the Scot
land Neck School Administrative Unit than you were
before, in some cases, isn’t that right?
< A I would not say that you would be in better posi
tion because of it. And I do not know what the formula
will be for next year, but you are speaking of the way
that they have been allotted in the past; this is all we
can say—these special education teachers, that if we are
still allotted the same number of State positions, then
there would be fewer pupils for these teachers to work
with, that’s correct. I don’t know how many will attend
Scotland Neck School, but I am sure some of them that
received speech therapy are located there.
Q And, of course, the allotment of teachers is really
worked out in Raleigh by the—by Dr. Craig Phillips’
office, isn’t it?
A Yes. The State Board of Education make the regu
lations, and the State Department of Public Instruction
oftentimes say whether they are needed, and where, if
it is not on a formula basis.
Q Now, Mr. Overman, Scotland Neck may lose some
— some teacher—teachers, particularly vocational teach
ers, that type of thing, as a result of their being a sepa
rate unit, isn’t that correct, this coming year, 1969-70?
A Well, it could be. If you need an explanation there,
I will be glad to explain it.
Q Please. I am not sure I understand it.
A _ Well,_ there were two trades and industries teach
ers in addition to home economics and vocational-agri
culture, and our introduction to vocations teachers were
309
assigned to the Scotland Neck Schools, but two of these
teachers worked with pupils from the Brawley School.
This is the trades and industry teachers. And they
worked with pupils from Brawley, and also the Scotland
Neck School. Now, I do not know whether they will be
retained in the County Unit or whether any of them will
be allotted to the Scotland Neck Unit because these teach
ers have not yet been allotted.
Q Well, now, isn’t it true, Mr. Overman, that voca
tional-agriculture in this area— that, that is, the num
ber of students going into agriculture, has greatly di
minished in the last twenty years?
A You mean the students themselves going into the
field of agriculture?
Q Yes, sir.
A Yes, this is true. Now there are many students
that go into agriculture related occupations now that
didn’t formerly.
Q But the need for the agricultural-vocational-agri
culture in this— in the schools, and particularly in the
urban schools or the town schools, county schools, is far
less than it was just a few years ago, isn’t that correct?
A Yes. I would say that probably some other type
of vocational training might be better suited for urban
areas.
Q And, in fact, the—probably the percentage of Ne
gro students going into agriculture is less than even the
white students in this County—wouldn’t you say that
that is true?
A I don’t know that I could say. But it would seem
reasonable to me, because of mechanization and the need
for the people on the farms.
Q And Scotland Neck has had vocational-agriculture
programs for— ever since the mid-thirties or early thir
ties and that is still under the County system, at least
has been carried forward for the last thirty-five—thirty-
four or five years, isn’t that correct?
A Yes.
Q And isn’t vocational agriculture one of the most
expensive, both from a teacher standpoint and from equip
310
ment standpoint, of any single course that our schools
at the present day teach?
A It would not be more expensive than trades and
industries courses because of the equipment that is re
quired. Possibly more expensive than home economics to
some extent.
Q But, certainly, more expensive than the academic
courses?
A Yes, that’s correct.
Q Now, haven’t some of the schools, particularly the
smaller high schools, gone from a trades and industries
classes, that is, from strictly trades and industries classes
to these— what they call career supervision, where they
have a supervisor to try to get the students interested
in a particular field and those students who are inter
ested in that particular field, they get them a part-time
job during their school year in that field in the commu
nity, and more or less career guidance, rather than ac
tually teaching them a trade and industry in these high
schools?
A I believe you are thinking of the type of vocational
training that we refer to as I.C.T., where children would
be on the job a portion of the time.
Q Yes, sir.
A And, of course, at school another portion. We do
not have any of those teachers within Halifax County
Unit at present.
Q But isn’t it true that a number of schools are in
troducing that type of thing to give a broader choice of
vocational endeavor to the students?
A Especially in the towns and cities.
Q Where they have those vocational— variated voca
tions?
A That’s right, a variety of vocations.
Q And to some extent that not only give a broader
scope or broader variety of vocations, but it is a lot less
expensive, isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct. It does not require the equipment
that is necessary for the other types of vocational train
ing.
311
Q Now, Mr. Overman, isn’t it true that this County
is spread out over maybe fifty or sixty—possibly sixty
miles from the northwest to the southeast, and approxi
mately thirty to forty miles from north to south; it is a
rather large county physically?
A Yes.
Q Wouldn’t you say, too, that the interest—the voca
tional interest, even the academic interest, of this County
—the people of that County— vary greatly from section
to section?
A Yes. One section of the County—that is indus
trialized more than another, if this is the meaning of
your question.
Q Yes, sir. And the type of farm operations, com
pletely different in some areas than it is in others, isn’t
that correct?
A Right.
Q And that has nothing to do with—basically with
race, does it?
A No.
Q It is just the particular location, whether it is Ne
gro or white or Indian, it is the particular location and
the nature of the soil and the nature of the area rather
than race itself, isn’t that correct?
A (Witness nods head in the affirmative) I say yes.
I think the types of employment that they have had are
responsible for the division in the race, is what you are
asking, is it?
MR JOSEY: Well—
MR. KENNEDY: I didn’t understand you.
Q (Mr. Josey) Well, the interest, the type of voca
tions that they follow in this County is not based on
whether a man is black or whether he is white or wheth
er he is Indian, but where he lives and the type of in
dustry, the type of work available, the type of soil, the
type of— that has more to do with it fundamentally than
the race, doesn’t it?
A Yes. It has in the past.
.Q Now I believe, Mr. Overman, you said that Mr.
Simpson conducted this survey of the spot map to locate
where each student lived within the County, and that was
done—what month did you say, approximately?
312
A I believe it was begun in April and carried through
part of May. Possibly a little earlier than April. It
might have been started in March, the latter part of
March. I’m not certain.
Q And that was never quite completed, was it?
A I believe it was completed as accurately as it could
be gotten.
Q As I understood you yesterday, you said that the
actual location of where each student lives was pin
pointed as accurately as you could get it on this map,
but that, in fact, any geographical areas to fit any plan
on that was not quite completed?
A Oh, that’s correct, yes.
Q Now, up until that time did you know, or did this
office have any— have any reasonably concrete informa
tion, or did anybody that you know of in this County,
have any reasonably concrete information as to where
each student lived?
A No. We have had spots maps before but not re
cently, prior to this survey this year.
Q Now do you have the exact figure of the loss in
average daily attendance from 1968-69 to 1969-70?
A I will have to get another sheet from the office.
I do not have that with me.
Q But you do have that somewhere in the office and
you can get it?
A Yes, I do.
Q And the number of teachers that were lost was
due— due to the loss— strike that. The number of teach
ers— I believe you said there were a number of teachers
that you would have, that the Halifax County Unit would
have less than the teachers you had— were allocated last
year?
A That’s correct.
Q Of course, that would be true whether the Scotland
Neck School Unit had been created or not, wouldn’t it?
A That’s correct.
Q But, again, those teachers are allotted on the basis
of the number of students and, therefore, you anticipate
that in 1969-70 you will have generally the same num
313
ber of teachers per student as you would have otherwise
or heretofore?
A Yes.
Q How many total busses do you have in your sys
tem, Mr. Overman, approximately?
A A hundred twenty-one. And there are nine that
operate in the Weldon School Unit. I believe nine is cor
rect.
Q What does that— the Weldon School Unit, of course,
is a separate school unit, isn’t it?
A It is.
Q How do— what responsibility, if any, does the Hali
fax County School Board of Education have in the oper
ation of those busses in the Weldon City Unit?
A The law permits— it doesn’t require any transpor
tation for that matter at present, but it does permit the
transportation of all children, regardless of whether they
are in the city administrative unit or county adminis
trative unit, for children living a mile and a half from
the school which they attend if they are not in the city
in which the school is located.
Q In other words, does the Halifax County Unit
have any responsibility to the maintenance; what respon
sibility do they have concerning that, bus operation of
those busses?
A Well, the State has set up the transportation sys
tem on the basis of one central location for all units
within a county, and if city administrative units are
entitled to transportation, why, this garage and mainte
nance, vehicle maintenance place is set up with the County
unit, and, of course, they provide the funds for operat
ing it for all transportation and all units within a given
county.
Q And how many of those busses of the hundred—
A I think it is nine. I’m not certain that is the num
ber. I believe it is nine.
Q All right, sir. Now, Weldon is approximately 24
miles from Scotland Neck, isn’t that correct, by the road?
A Yes— 25.
Q 24 or 25 miles. Now the Weldon School District—
strike that. The Weldon School District originally was
314
set up back in the thirties, is that correct— the Weldon
City Unit?
A Yes, as a city unit.
Q Then some—just a few years ago that was ex
panded to include Halifax and other parts, and other
parts of the Halifax County Unit, wasn’t it?
A Yes, in 1957.
Q ’57?
A Yes.
Q And, in fact, the Halifax County Unit now comes
from Halifax— strike that. The Weldon City Unit comes
— the six or eight miles from Weldon to Halifax and in
cludes Halifax, isn’t that correct?
A It does.
Q It also goes another five or six miles towards Scot
land Neck down almost to the Caledonia Prison Farm,
just this side of Tillery, isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q And the busses for the Weldon City School Unit go
as far as— within about twelve to fifteen miles of Scot
land Neck and pick up students and take them to Weldon
City Schools, isn’t that correct?
A That’s approximately the distance.
Q Now does— I believe Mr. Kennedy asked you about
the agreement that Halifax County School Board made
with Scotland Neck School Board concerning the crossing
of the school lines, that is, the students— that some stu
dents that live in Halifax County Unit boundaries have
requested to go to Scotland Neck School Unit, and you
said that that agreement had been entered into, is that
correct?
A Not a formal agreement, but an understanding
when it came to the procedure of freedom of choice.
Q Yes, sir.
A So that it could be determined how many of those
children—
Q Yes, sir.
A. —wished to attend the Scotland Neck Unit.
Q At least at the present time, basically, that is the
Halifax County Board policy and that is the Scotland
Neck policy and they more or less propose to operate on
that beginning in September, isn’t that correct?
315
A Yes.
Q Beginning 1969. You also— the Halifax County
Board has, and has had for many years, an agreement to
permit certain pupils in the Littleton area to cross into
Warren County to go to the Littleton School which is, in
fact, just across the line in Warren County, isn’t that cor
rect?
A Yes.
Q And also—
A There are two classes, one around Littleton and
the other near Hollister.
Q Which is the Haliwa, mostly heretofore the Indians,
have been permitted to go into Warren County, who live
in Halifax County, under that agreement; that’s been a—
rather longstanding, too, isn’t that correct?
A Since the school was established— the Haliwa School
was established— and I believe that’s been in operation ten
to twelve years.
Q All right, sir. Now— now do any students that live
— any students that live in the Halifax County— in the
Halifax County Unit go to the Weldon City Schools?
A There are probably some on a phasing out agree
ment. If they attended schools prior to their regulation,
they would be allowed to continue.
Q What regulation do you refer to?
A Now, are you asking me if children are allowed to
come out of Halifax County and go into Weldon?
Q Yes, sir.
A I don’t recall exactly how long it’s been in effect,
but the Weldon Board of Education said that they would
not allow Halifax County children, that is, Halifax County
Administrative Unit children, to go into Weldon City
School, or from any other unit, except those that had al
ready started in attendance and they would be allowed to
go by their choice and until they finished school or moved.
Q But as far as Halifax County Board of Education,
they have never put any restrictions on people going to
Weldon Schools; it’s been the Weldon School itself that
has not permitted them to go?
A That’s correct.
Q Not the Halifax County Board of Education?
316
A That’s right.
Q Are there any students that live in the Halifax
County School Unit that go to Roanoke Rapids School
Unit?
A There still may be a few because they have the
same regulation there, only those attending prior to
making that regulation by the Board of Education would
be allowed to attend.
Q But there, again, there’s been no restrictive action
on the part of Halifax County School Board to prevent
that crossing of lines, but the restrictive action has come
from the other school board, that is, the Roanoke Rapids
School Board, isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct. Now I might add that when these
people live in Halifax County that have not gone before,
and if they should request to go into some other unit, they
are taken up individually and released, the assignment.
Q Now are there students living in the Roanoke Rap
ids City administrative boundary lines that come to school
in Halifax County?
A There are some, yes.
Q What— any particular arrangement that you have
with that school on those students, or what is the arrange
ment that you have?
A Well, there is a section in Roanoke Rapids School
District that had been transported to one of the county
schools for a number of years, even before I came to the
county, and that section had been furnished the transpor
tation without objection on the part of Roanoke Rapids
and have been attending school at the— it’s the William
R. Davie School, in particular. I would estimate about
sixty-five to seventy children have done this through a
period of years.
Q Now, as far as you know Weldon doesn’t charge
any tuition, and neither does Roanoke Rapids for students
coming in there, do they?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q But neither do they have an unrestricted policy of
students coming in, that they do, in fact, have a restriction
on who can come in?
A Yes.
317
Q Now, Mr. Overman, Mr. Kennedy asked you about
the Governor’s Study Commission Report, dated Decem
ber 1968, and I believe you—he questioned you concern
ing one of the recommendations there involving the size
of administrative units—isn’t that correct—yesterday he
questioned you about that, sir?
A Yes.
Q Now, Mr. Overman, isn’t it true that one of the—
one of the conclusions that they reached and one of the
recommendations they made, very strongly so, that local
—that no local funds be voted by people to increase local
financial participation to improve the schools; isn’t that
one of the things that they suggested and recommended
in that Governor’s Commission Report?
A Yes, that is a recommendation.
Q And, of course, that is at least one thing that Scot
land Neck School does in fact do and, in fact, follows the
Governor’s Commission Report, isn’t that correct, in that
particular regard?
A Yes, in voting of the supplemental tax.
Q Yes, sir. Do you know of any other— any school
anywhere in the State that has a higher supplemental tax
than fifty cents on a hundred?
A I do not; that is the limit.
Q In fact, that is the maximum that you can—
A The statutory limit.
Q Yes, sir. Now is Dr. Salter Cochran— is he in any
way employed by the Board of Education of Halifax
County?
A I am not certain about this year. He has been em
ployed to examine pre-school children in the summer
school program, and I’d have to ask someone else if he
is doing it this year.
Q Well, do you have figures in your office to show
how much he received monetarily last summer in examin
ing these— in working for the Halifax County Unit?
A Those figures are available.
MR. JOSEY: Are available. Could you get those be
fore we— could we go off the record.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
318
Q (Mr. Josey) Now, Mr. Overman, when did you
come here as Superintendent, sir?
A July first, 1947.
Q And you have been the school superintendent since
that time?
A Yes.
Q I believe Mr. Kennedy got into on yesterday ques
tioning involving whether or not any people from the
Scotland Neck area had requested improvement of the
schools, and so forth, in the last couple of years or the last
few years. I will ask you that— isn’t it a fact in 1965
that the people— certain leaders in Scotland Neck didn’t
in fact prepare and have Mr. Gregory introduce into the
Legislature, the North Carolina Legislature, that session,
a bill which proposed a Scotland Neck— a Scotland Neck
separate administrative school unit?
A That was in 1965?
Q Yes, sir.
A Yes.
Q And, in fact, at that time, Mr. Overman, did not
that bill have as the limits of the separate school unit all
of the townships which would include the schools of
Brawley, Bakers, Dawsons, Tillery Chapel, Hobgood, and
Thomas Shields School?
A la m not certain that it included the Thomas Shields
and Hobgood Schools, but a portion of those pupils that
were probably going to Thomas Shields might have at
tended there at that time.
* * * *
Q You remember what the tax— tax rate that was pro
posed in that bill to be set for that area?
A Either twenty or thirty cents, and I don’t recall
which. I could be corrected on that, if you would allow
me to— twenty-five cents.
Q Now, I show you here, Mr. Overman, what is
marked for identification purposes Defendant Scotland
Neck’s Exhibit # 1 .
MR. KENNEDY: Correction— oh, I’m sorry. The
Town of Scotland Neck?
319
MR. JOSEY: Yes, Defendant Scotland Neck—how
ever you want to designate it; that is who I represent.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
MR. JOSEY: It is stipulated and agreed that Defend
ant Exhibit 1 is a copy of the map which accompanied the
proposed school integration plan that was submitted to
the Department of Justice by the Halifax County Board
of Education in February of 1969.
Q (Mr. Josey) Now, Mr. Overman, I show you here
Defendant’s Exhibit # 1 and ask you if the boundaries
of the bill that was proposed in the North Carolina Legis
lature of— in 1965 were in fact the boundaries shown on
Defendant’s Exhibit 1, which included the Tillery Chapel
School, the I. B. Dawson School— strike that. The Dawson
School, the Scotland Neck School, the Brawley School, the
Bakers School, but did not include the Thomas Shields
School, is that correct?
A That’s correct. Some pupils attending Thomas
Shields may have been within that boundary line. I’m
not certain.
Q And it is your recollection that the bill was origi
nally proposed or drawn by the leaders in Scotland Neck
to, in fact, include Thomas Shields, but those people in that
area wanted to be taken out of it, so when the bill was
finally introduced, the Thomas Shields area and Hobgood
was, in fact, left out, isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q Now, as far as you know, and based on all of your
experience with those people through that bill at that
time, was there any purpose that had to do with race,
creed, or color for—was there anything of that nature in
volved in the purpose for which that bill was introduced
in the Legislature in 1965?
MR. K EN N ED Y : Objection. The purpose can be
shown from the bill itself, the circumstances surrounding
it.
MR. CREW: If you know to your knowledge.
Q. (Mr. Josey) Well, what was the purpose, if you
know, as stated to you by those people that were— that
were attempting to get that school bill— that separate
320
school unit made into law; what was their purpose if you
know; what was their stated purpose?
A Well, the main purpose, as I understood it, was
that they would be allowed to have a school unit of their
own; they would have more control over this, and that
they would have a supplementary tax to further finance
the school program.
Q And isn't it true, also, that a number of the people
who opposed that bill—who opposed the creation of that
school district were the land— owners of land that would
be taxed primarily outside the city limits of Scotland
Neck?
A I do not know that to be a fact.
Q Well, now, Mr. Overman, they did have a public
hearing in Halifax while that school bill was still pend
ing in the Legislature, and that was called by Senator
Julian Allsbrook— isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q Do you remember any of the individuals who
spoke against that bill on that particular occasion, if
you recall?
A I could not recall. I do know for a fact that there
were some that had large land ownings— they were large
landowners, but to say that they were confined to that I
could not do that.
Q No, no, in fact, they probably weren’t confined to
that; there were two or three in Scotland Neck that lived
in Scotland Neck that were opposed to it, also, weren’t
there?
A To my knowledge there were.
Q The Halifax County Board of Education did, in
fact, take an official stand against it— isn’t that correct,
or did they?
A They took a stand against it, yes.
Q But as far as you know— strike that. Now, Mr.
Henry L. Harrison was very instrumental in, and one
of the leaders in, attempting to have that bill approved
by the Legislature— isn’t that correct?
A Well, I know that Mr. Harrison was present at
meetings that were held in regard to it to explain to the
people the advantages, and so on.
321
Q And, in fact, you know from a personal contact
with Mr. Harrison that at least he was in favor of it?
A I would think that, yes.
Q And, in fact, he was on the County School Board
at that time?
A He was.
Q And he had been for—well, he has been up until
December of 1968, for about thirteen years—isn’t that
correct?
A Correct.
Q I don’t know whether— I may have asked you this,
Mr. Overman, but do you know how much the tax, ad
valorem tax, per one hundred dollar evaluation was set
in this original bill?
A Twenty-five cents per hundred dollar evaluation.
Q Now, after the failure of this proposed bill to pass
the Legislature, I will ask you, Mr. Overman, within
approximately one year thereafter if the leaders of Scot
land Neck, including Mr. Harrison, did not propose that
the County and the State establish an integrated consoli
dated high school in the Scotland Neck area which was,
in fact, turned down by the State of North Carolina?
A Yes.
Q In fact, isn’t it true that you and Mr. Harrison,
and possibly the Board— the Halifax County Board Chair
man and maybe one or two others, made a special trip to
Raleigh to the State Board of Education, then Dr. Carroll
—not to Dr. Carroll, but to his office, and actually talked
to Dr. Pearce about asking, and in fact asked, that this
be considered, that a consolidated integrated high school
be considered to be placed there in the Scotland Neck
area; in fact, exactly where the junior high is today?
A That is correct. We appeared before what was
known as the State Review Panel. It is composed of mem
bers of the Division of School Planning, and some others
that they call in as consultants. The State Review Panel
then makes the recommendation to the State Board of
Education.
Q Now what was— strike that. Wasn’t it that they—
they refused to go along with a consolidated high school
in that particular location at that time, isn’t that correct?
322
A That’s correct.
Q And both—both the Halifax County School Board
and the—certainly the leaders in the educational field in
Scotland Neck were in favor of it and tried to get that
established at that time—isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q And isn’t—wasn’t it, in fact, the only local group
in this County—that lived in this County administrative
unit that had been to the Board— to the Halifax County
Board and said: we are willing and want a consolidated
integrated high school—isn’t that the first group that
came to this Board and asked that that be done?
A Yes. As you stated it, this is correct.
Q Yes, sir. And, in fact, Mr. Harrison had served on
this Board with you for approximately thirteen years
up until December of 1968, isn’t that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q And didn’t you consider Mr. Harrison, who lives in
the Scotland Neck area, as one of the— one of— as a mem
ber of your Board who was in fact pretty— rather pro
gressive and wanted to move along in education for the
students of Halifax County; didn’t you consider him to
be at least in that category, a progressive forward think
ing member of the Board?
A I did.
Q And he was the only member, was he not, that lived
in the Scotland— in Scotland Neck, isn’t that correct?
A Yes, the only one in Scotland Neck.
Q Now you had—for the past several years you have
had one member who lived in Hobgood and one in the
Thomas Shields area— isn’t that correct?
A Yes.
Q And you had one member who lived in the Scotland
Neck area, who is Mr. Harrison. You had one member
who lived in the Enfield area, which was Mr. Whitehead,
later replaced by Mr. Burke?
A Yes.
Q And you had one—you had actually two that lived
in the general area of Aurelian Springs, that was, Mr.
Wilcox and Mrs. Williams, isn’t that correct?
323
A I am not certain whether they were on the Board
in 1965, but there were two others that were in that area.
Q In that same area?
A Yes.
Q And one who lived in the William R. Davie area;
that was—was Mrs. Shearin?
A Yes.
Q And there’s been an effort by the leaders of Halifax
County to try to have some representation of each physical
area in the Halifax County School area, in the bounda
ries, to have some member of the Board from each physi
cal area so they represent the children basically in that
area— isn’t that correct?
A That is generally true, yes.
Q So that Mr. Harrison, for the past thirteen years,
has at least been the representative of— not only of all
the children of Halifax County, but the one that has lived
in the Scotland Neck area— isn’t that correct?
A Yes.
Q Well, has it not been the policy that where problems
existed or improvements were needed in a particular lo
cation that the School Board member that lived in that
area would bring those problems—would bring that mat
ter to the attention of the School Board, generally speak
ing?
A Generally speaking, that’s true.
Q What relation would you say existed over the past
several years with the local school committee and the
Halifax County Board of Education member that lived in
that area?
A Well, they were often kept advised. I mean the
school committee and formerly the school committee, and
now the advisory council, would often advise with the
member that lived in that area about school matters and
improvements, and so on, and in turn the Board member
would lead a discussion on these matters in the Board
meeting. Is this—
Q Yes. That is especially what I wanted in answer
to my question. Also, isn’t it true, Mr. Overman, that
when these—when the H.E.W. guidelines were first put
out and first published and first put in the hands of the
324
Halifax County Board of Education, that Mr. Harrison
immediately, as a board member, went down into his
area, the Scotland Neck area, and publiiczed those guide
lines and made every effort to have the people in the
Scotland Neck area comply with these guidelines?
A Yes.
Q Now, Mr. Overman, do you know generally how
the people in the area, in Scotland Neck, have voted from
time to time on these, either State-wide school bonds or
local school bonds, as compared to the rest of the County;
do you know how they compare— the vote in the County,
in the Town of Scotland Neck, as with the rest of the
County in regards to for or against these various bond
issues?
A They have cast a favorable vote in favor of these
bond issues, State-wide as well as the County bond issue.
Q Has that to some extent, at least, been during the
last thirteen years?
A Oh, yes.
Q Been the result of Mr. Harrison’s efforts, too?
A I would say that it is, yes.
Q Now how much bond money did Halifax County—
was Halifax County allocated from the State school bond
passage, the passage of the State school bond issue sev
eral years ago?
A The latest one, the 1963?
Q Yes, sir.
A Bond issue?
Q Yes, sir.
A Nine hundred— more than nine hundred fifty thou
sand dollars.
Q The State Bond issue— some over nine hundred
thousand dollars?
A Yes.
Q Now how much of that to date has actually been
expended, if you know, approximately?
A Y/e have expended approximately a hundred and
fifty thousand dollars for one school project.
Q So that there is—
A We have obligated some forty thousand dollars more
for another school project that is under construction, a
part of which has been spent.
325
Q How much of that— if you know, approximately—
has been either committed to or spent on the Scotland
Neck School property?
A Not any of this bond issue.
Q Approximately how much is there remaining at the
present time that is either not committed or has not been
spent, or this State bond money, approximately?
A Approximately $827,000.00. Now for reasons of
balancing what I have said here, I would have to add
that a part of this money that we now have was trans
ferred from the Roanoke Rapids Unit to the County Unit
when the John Armstrong Chaloner School became a part
of the County Unit, if you want to check all of these
figures.
Q So at the time the— Roanoke Rapids got you people
to take over, got the Halifax County Board of Education
to take over the physical area at least of the John Arm
strong Chaloner School and took over those students, then
a portion of the bond money that had been allocated to
the Roanoke Rapids School on a per capita basis was put
back into the Halifax County till as a result of those stu
dents, is that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q Now the— now the fact that the Scotland Neck
School— strike that. I believe you testified yesterday that
the Board of Education of Halifax County has determined
as a result of an opinion by the Attorney General of
North Carolina that none of these State bond funds can
be or should be allocated to the Scotland Neck School Dis
trict, but that those should remain with the Halifax
County School System— isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q And, so, therefore, as a result of Scotland Neck
becoming a separate unit you have approximately $827,-
000.00 to be—theoretically to provide for a thousand less
students because the Scotland Neck School District does
exist, isn’t that correct?
A Yes.
Q Now, Mr. Overman, isn’t it true that only about
four— strike that. As far as the school buildings and
real estate that became the property of the Scotland Neck
326
Administrative Unit, as a result of this Act of the Legis
lature, 1969 Act of the Legislature, there are only four—
there are only four classrooms, permanent classrooms,
there that became the property of Scotland Neck School;
there are only four that are less than twenty-five years
old— isn’t that true?
A Yes.
Q And those four— those relatively new four are in a
building known as the auditorium which was built in
approximately 1955 or ’56 or ’57, somewhere in that
neighborhood— isn’t that correct?
A Correct.
Q The other buildings and the other classrooms are at
least twenty-five or thirty years old, and many of these
are as old as—many of them are over sixty years old, isn’t
that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q And, as a matter of fact in the— in the Govern
ment’s Exhibit # 2 , Mr. Overman, which Mr. Kennedy
questioned you about the other day, about the condition,
the adequacy of certain classrooms, isn’t it true in that
survey that it stated that Scotland Neck classrooms, Scot
land Neck buildings, school buildings, have more inade
quate classrooms than any other— than any other area
in the County?
MR. KENNEDY: Objection. I think that the report
can speak for itself.
A According to the age and the condition of the class
rooms I would say yes, than of any other school in the
County.
Q (Mr. Josey) Well, Mr. Overman, on page 72, I
believe, in the summary it says that— that ten classrooms
meet minimum size standard, twenty-two do not. Isn’t
that what it states, and as far as you know, and based
on your experience as superintendent, that is true, isn’t
it?
A Yes.
Q Do you know of any other area that has as many
as twenty-two sub-standard classrooms?
A No, not as many as twenty-two. I did not, unless
I referred to this. There is one other school which states
327
there were twenty-two that met— no, that is that met
minimum size, so that is not below.
Q Now, Mr. Overman, size of a school administrative
unit is not certainly the only criteria of academic ex
cellence, is it?
A No, size in itself would not, no.
Q And, in fact, there is— there are a number of cri
teria and categories in which a school—in which academic
excellence is determined by educators, aren’t there?
A Yes, sir.
Q What are— what are some of those categories that
educators—how they analyze the excellence or the stand
ard of a school or school administrative unit?
A Well, I will start with size. They recommend that,
certainly in high school, that there be a size— a number
of pupils that will allow classes to meet the needs, abil
ities, interests of all the children. They usually refer to
this type of high school as a comprehensive high school.
In elementary schools they believe that they should have
at least one teacher per grade. The quality of the in
struction certainly is a criteria which has to do with the
quality, overall ability, performance of the faculty mem
bers. It needs a good administrator. And a curriculum
that would also meet the needs and the interests and
abilities of the children.
Q Now, when an evaluation team of educators go into
a particular school, say, a high school, to analyze whether
or not that particular high school is a good school or a
poor school or an excellent school, or meets the— at least
the minimum educational standards, are there other sta
tistics, categories of statistics, which they use to some
extent to determine this standard, minimum standard or
test standard, on which they are analyzing this partic
ular school, such as the number of students who go on
to college, the library books per student?
A Right.
Q Aren’t there other categories on which a particular
school is classified on educational standards?
A Yes.
Q Well, what are some of those, sir?
A Well, as you have mentioned, the number of library
books, actually the condition of the school building itself,
328
and the equipment in the various departments in the
school. Of course, there are some who rate a school by
the number of children that go on to higher education.
If you are speaking primarily of the surveys that have
been made in our unit, I don’t think that is included as
a criteria for the operation of a good school, but there is
information contained in it.
Q Well, that is one, certainly one—maybe one of the
goals of a good school; that may be or may not be?
A Yes.
Q The entire goal. But it should be one of the cri
teria of the higher school, wouldn’t you think?
A I agree.
Q And that is generally considered to be one of the
criteria by educators?
A Yes.
Q Wouldn’t it also be a proper test or a proper cri
teria, at least one category, to determine how many stu
dents that you had per teacher, that is, the fewer stu
dents you had per teacher, don’t educators feel that the
better they are going to be able to educate those stu
dents?
A In some phases of instruction. And they recom
mend in some classes a larger number can be taught.
But you are speaking primarily of the pupil-teacher
ratio?
Q Yes, sir.
A Overall school program. I would say yes.
Q Would you also feel that the percentage of class
room teachers with maximum experience, for pay pur
poses, would indicate— that is, those that had more ex
perienced teachers would have a better school than those
generally with teachers with less experience?
A That would be one conclusion you could reach I
believe. And yet we have many teachers with little ex
perience that are very good teachers. They are excellent
teachers.
Q But hadn’t it been your experience in the school
system that, other things being generally equal, that
where you have teachers that are more experienced they
produce better results than teachers with little expe
rience?
329
A Yes.
Q And that is also true with the staffs— the admin
istrative staff, generally speaking, where you have peo
ple with some experience and generally speaking the
more experience you have, the— a staff member has, the
more likely he is to do a better job, more competent
job— isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q I believe that the Governor’s Commission’s Re
port— did it not set a school administrative unit at a
desirable minimum of five thousand enrollment—isn’t
that correct?
MR. K EN N ED Y : Objection. The report speaks for
itself.
Q (Mr. Josey) Do you remember whether or not it
did?
A This reference is a quotation from another study
which says that in the future school administrative units
should be so organized that an absolute minimum of
3500 to 4,000 school population, and a desirable minimum
of nine thousand to ten thousand.
MR. KENNEDY: For clarification can I ask what
page you are referring to?
A This is on page 64.
Q (Mr. Josey) That a desirable—from what? Nine
to ten thousand?
A Yes.
Q Now, Mr. Overman, are you familiar with the
Profile of Significant Factors in Education in North Car
olina, A Ranking of School Administrative Units, dated
July of 1968, that came out—was published by the De
partment of Public Instruction, Raleigh, North Carolina?
A Yes, I am familiar with that.
Q You are familiar with it generally?
A Yes.
Q And there they have set up in the various tables,
have they not, various categories in an attempt to at
least analyze and to rank various— all of the North Caro
lina school administrative units, whether they are city
or county, isn’t that correct?
A Yes.
330
Q Ranked them in these various categories?
A Yes,
Q And, of course, one of the categories they rank
them is to size?
A Yes.
Q And Halifax County is, out of a hundred— a hun
dred sixty-some units in the State, is about twenty-fifth
or twenty-sixth or seventh in size, isn’t it?
A I believe that is correct.
Q Somewhere in that neighborhood?
A They change from year to year, and I believe it is
around twenty-fifth.
Q At least there are approximately a hundred twenty-
some units, approximately, that are smaller than Hali
fax County in this State?
A Yes. A total of 54—this publication— I don’t know
how many it listed.
Q Now do you know— also know that Tryon City
Unit, Tryon, North Carolina City Administrative Unit
is in fact the smallest unit in the State?
A I believe that is listed as the smallest. There is
one other one that is very small, and I think that is to
be consolidated, however— in Wayne County.
Q Tryon is not to be consolidated though; you know
of nothing pending on that, do you?
A No.
Q Sir?
A No.
Q Mr. Overman, in most all of the categories of
rankings of these schools in North Carolina, such as per
cent of high school graduates entering college, number
of library books per pupil, teacher and pupil ratio— in
all of those categories there are many more small schools
that are far under five thousand students than there are
large schools in this State, if you know?
MR. CREW: Objection. The report------
MR. JOSEY: If you know.
A Yes.
Q (Mr. Josey) In fact, Tryon, the smallest school
in the State is the fourth from the top in the whole
State of a hundred sixty—fifty-five or sixty units in the
331
percentage of high school graduates entering college—
isn’t that correct?
A I would have to see the figures there, Mr. Josey.
Q Yes, sir.
A That is correct.
Q And out of the top seven schools in that particular
caegory there is only one school, one administrative unit,
that has as many as five thousand students in the unit,
and that is Greenville and that has about fifty-eight or
nine hundred. Would you check that, please, sir?
A Would you repeat the question?
Q In the category of the percentage of high school
graduates entering college, out of the top six or seven
school administrative units in that category, there is only
one— there is only one school administrative unit that
has as many as five thousand students, and that is Green
ville with approximately fifty-nine hundred or six thou
sand students, and all the rest of those top six or eight
are small school administrative units under five thou
sand?
MR. K EN N ED Y : Objection. The report speaks for
itself.
A That is correct.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
MR. JOSEY: I’d like for the record to show that
this “Profile of Significant Factors in Education in North
Carolina, A Ranking of School Administrative Units,
July 1968,” prepared by Statistical Services, Department
of Public Instruction, Raleigh, North Carolina, be shown
as Defendant Scotland Neck Exhibit 2.
(MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION)
Q (Mr. Josey) Mr. Overman, do you now have the
figures about which I asked a few minutes ago concern
ing the amount that Dr. Salter Cochran has received
from the Halifax County Board of Education in the past
two years?
A Yes.
Q What are those figures, sir?
332
A In 1968, summer program, Dr. Cochran was paid
the sum of $1600.00 for examining 708 children, and this
figures $2.62 per child for each examination.
Q Now are those funds— are they paid from Halifax
County local funds?
A Paid from federal funds. ESEA Title I Project.
Q And that’s all that he— is that all the total money
he received for the examination from any source, is that
correct as far as you know?
A During 1968.
Q And that was just during the summer?
A The summer of 1968.
Q All right. What— do you know what the purpose
and the extent of this examination that he gives— do you
know— is that— strike that. Could you answer that ques
tion? Do you know the purpose and extent to which this
examination is given?
A The purpose is to see that the children are phys
ically able to attend school the next year. These are
pre-school children. Now exactly what he checks I don’t
know that I could include everything, but it’s a general
physical examination.
Q In other words, he checks them to see that they
have no------
A Defects.
Q Obvious defects, and if he does find any, why,
then he turns those over to—reports those to somebody
else?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right, sir. Do you know how many years he
has been performing this service?
A For two years, during the summer of 1968 and
1969.
Q And what— where are these 708 children that he
examines, where do they come from, what area of the
County— do you know?
A The entire school unit.
Q Who are the seven hundred?
A These are pre-school children. Pre-school children.
Q Is he the only doctor that examines any of these
children?
333
A Yes.
Q I mean on that program?
A Yes.
Q So he examines every pre-schooler that goes into
the Halifax County School System, theoretically at least?
A Those who enroll in the readiness program. Now
there are some that do not attend this summer program
and he does not examine them.
Q Of course, that included in 1968 those children in
Scotland Neck?
A Yes.
Q And if Scotland Neck does operate under a sep
arate school system that will cut down on the number of
students that he will be— that he will have to examine in
1969, isn’t that correct?
A Yes.
Q And he— Dr. Cochran lives in Weldon?
A He does.
Q Isn’t that correct?
A Yes.
Q In the area that is covered by the Weldon City
Administrative Unit?
A Yes.
Q Now what about 1969, sir?
A 1969, the amount is $1917.00 for 575 pupils. 575
pupils. Of this amount $1725.00 for examination, and
then $192.00 for medical services, a follow-up.
Q So the price per child went up approximately thirty
or forty percent from 1968 to 1969, is that correct?
A I did not figure the cost per child on this.
Q These— to whom are these children referred?
A May I answer that question when you asked about
thirty percent. This figure is $$1725.00 for the exam
ination portion. It would be $3.00 per child. It was
$2.92 last year—twenty-six cents. $2.26 last year. $3.00
per child this year.
Q Now did that include— did the $1725.00, examin
ations, did that include for the 1969 examinations the
Scotland Neck— the pupils that will be entering the Scot
land Neck School, or at least be enrolled there?
A So far as I know. I don’t know the number really
in Scotland Neck.
334
Q In other words, there were some summer programs
at Scotland Neck and Halifax County more or less elab
orated on for 1969?
A Yes, the summer programs.
Q During the transition as it moved from the County
System to the City System?
A Yes.
Q Do you know where these children— the children
that are found defective in some way, where they are
referred to or does Dr. Cochran handle that himself?
A I would suppose that they are referred to the pri
vate physicians, except in some— this $192.00, Dr. Coch
ran has performed the service. Now exactly what that
was I am unable to say, but he has been paid $192.00
for that service.
Q Now I think there is about one other question of
these category questions. Mr. Overman, in obtaining
teachers for Halifax County have you experienced any
difficulty in the competition with units that can pay sup
plements to teachers until the last few years?
A Yes. Yes.
Q And, in fact, that is a problem in North Carolina
today, and has been for several years, isn’t that correct?
A Yes. This is generally speaking, yes.
Q So that a unit that does have some funds that can
supplement teachers can expect to get—have a little
easier time getting more experienced and possibly a
higher category of certificate teachers than those that
have no supplement for the pay—isn’t that correct?
A Well, generally speaking, that is true. There are
other factors I think in obtaining good qualified teachers.
Q Yes. I take it that the living conditions, the town
or city, or the place that a teacher has to live is to some
extent------
A Convenience.
Q ------ very important to them, to a teacher.
A (No answer).
Q And other aspects which make a teaching job at
tractive or unattractive, as the case may be, is that
correct?
A Yes.
335
Q But you would say in general that—you would
say in general then that the Scotland Neck Unit with
some supplementary funds should be able to attract some
what a better teacher or more experienced teacher than a
unit that does not have those funds—isn’t that correct?
A If the supplement were large enough to make the
attraction, I would say it that way.
Q Now, of course, if Scotland Neck Unit did in fact
provide a supplement, that to some extent would be an
other unit that would— that you would have to compete
with possibly, isn’t that correct?
A To some extent.
Q But you have quite a few pretty close by, in any
event, without Scotland Neck, without considering Scot
land Neck; that is, the Roanoke Rapids District, the
Tarboro, the Rocky Mount, the Weldon, the Virginia
Beach, the Norfolk area—you have many other areas
pretty close by that you have to some extent compete
with in obtaining teachers—isn’t that correct?
A Yes.
Q So that what little competition you would gain
from Scotland Neck would be somewhat a drop in the
bucket, wouldn’t it?
A It would be very small compared to other nearby
units that pay supplements.
(LUNCHEON RECESS)
Q (Mr. Josey) Mr. Overman, when was the last time
that there was a bond, county-wide bond, school bond
issue passed?
A 1967 . . . Not 1967. 1957. Excuse me. 1957.
Q Now at that time was it not the plan of the Hali
fax County School Board to pass this bond issue of ap
proximately three million dollars, and it was a plan in
the hope of the Halifax County School Board that the
County Commissioners would in future years from 1957
maintain their sixty-three cent school capital outlay tax
rate—wasn’t that the plan and the hope at that time?
A Yes.
Q Has that sixty-three cent rate been substantially
reduced by the County Commissioners since 1957?
336
A Well, the first levy was less than the sixty-three
cents as I recall it, by five cents. And it has been grad
ually reduced to where it was twenty-seven and a half
cents last fiscal year, and has been restored for next
fiscal year to twenty-nine and a quarter.
Q So that the total funds that was contemplated by
the Halifax County School Board for capital outlay for
building of new buildings and improvement for the Hali
fax County Schools themselves has not—the impact which
this bond money would have had, and the board hoped
that it would have in the long run, has not in fact been
sufficient because of the decrease of the sixty-three cent
rate down to twenty-seven or twenty-nine cents of the
capital outlay, the annual ad valorem taxes— isn’t that
correct?
A Yes.
Q And isn’t that one of the main reasons that— that
the Scotland Neck area has not, among other areas in
the County, has not had sufficient capital funds to keep
their facilities up to date and current and adequate?
A Yes, that is correct. Perhaps I should make a
statement about that sixty-three cents. I believe that
was a combination of capital outlay and debt service be
cause of the bond issue. Now the debt service has been
reduced because they make smaller payments each year,
and also the capital outlay has been reduced.
Q At least the Board of Education plan was, and they
really campaigned on the theory and told the people that,
if they passed this three million dollar bond issue and
the capital outlay tax rate, school capital outlay tax rate
by the County Commissioners, remained the same, that
the Halifax County Board of Education would have suffi
cient funds for many years to come to provide adequately
for the students in this County— isn’t that basically the
approach in the campaign that you people put on?
A That is correct.
Q And the fact that this sixty-three cent capital out
lay— school capital outlay rate and debt service rate has
been reduced gradually since 1957—isn’t that one of the,
if not the, primary—because of the somewhat discontent
and the movement on the part of the liaison in the Scot
land Neck area since that time?
337
MR. K EN N ED Y : Objection. It calls for complete
speculation.
MR. JOSEY (To Witness) : Go ahead.
A I certainly heard this expressed at times.
Q (Mr. Josey) Now, Mr. Overman, isn’t it also true
that Scotland Neck—strike that. Isn’t it also true that
the district school committee or the advisory council,
whichever it was at the time, for the— Scotland Neck,
was the first in the County to have a Negro member
approved by the Board of Education?
A I believe this is correct. There have been Negroes
put on other advisory councils since that time.
MR. JOSEY: That’s all.
EXAMINATION BY MR. CREW:
Q Mr. Overman, do you know the approximate num
ber of Negro teachers in the Halifax Unit for the past
school year?
A I say it is exact— it is not exact. We have ap
proximately 330 Negro teachers.
Q And approximately how many white teachers do
we have?
A A hundred fifty to two hundred.
Q Mr. Overman, have you as Superintendent or has
the. Halifax County School Board encouraged or fostered
in any way the creation of the Scotland Neck Unit?
A No.
Q Do you know the ratio or the approximate ratio
of Negro and white students in the Weldon Administra
tive Unit?
A Only approximately. 62 percent Negro.
Q That is, for the Weldon Unit then you say ap
proximately 62 percent Negro?
A Yes.
Q Now in the Roanoke Rapids Unit do you know
approximately the percentage?
A Approximately 80 percent. 20 percent Negro.
Q And you gave the ratio yesterday, but for com
parison purposes what is the ratio in the County units
as it is now constituted of white and Negro?
338
A As of last year?
Q Yes, sir.
A 78.6 percent Negro or non-white. 21.4 white.
Q Mr. Overman, what effect, if any, does public sup
port for your public schools have in the operation of
your public schools?
A To what extent?
Q Yes, sir. Do you consider—is public support of the
public schools, is that necessary in order to achieve ex
cellence in education?
A Oh, yes.
Q Now in the plan which was submitted to the Jus
tice Department, I believe in February of 1969, were
there hearings held in the County in an effort to explain
this to the people of the County?
A Yes, there were.
Q Was there opposition to the plan as submitted?
A Yes.
Q Did the opposition come from all races in the
County?
A It did.
Q I believe in this County we have the white, the
Negro, and the Indian?
A Yes.
Q I ask you if you did not have strong opposition to
the plan from the Negro race?
A Yes.
Q Now at the time that this plan was submitted to
the Justice Department I ask you if the bill setting up
the Scotland Neck District had not already been intro
duced in the General Assembly?
A It had been—been introduced?
Q Yes.
A Yes, sir.
Q And it was sometime before, subsequent thereto,
that it was enacted?
A Right.
Q Would the inclusion or exclusion of the Scotland
Neck Unit have any effect on the way that you would
operate the schools in the County, I mean by that would—
339
if the Scotland Neck Unit were in the system would you
proceed one way and if they were out would you pro
ceed another?
A Well, of course, under the present plan which is
freedom of choice there would not be any change.
Q Yes, sir.
A Now, is this your question? I don’t know whether
you meant------
Q Let me put it in another way. It is in evidence
here that after the plan was submitted to the Justice
Department, no further overt action was taken by the
County Board with respect to further desegregation
plans?
A That’s correct.
Q It is also in evidence that it was for some period
of several months, as I recall, that one was not sure of
what was going to happen with respect to the creation
of the Scotland Neck Unit?
A That is correct.
Q In your opinion did that have an effect on the
action or enaction of the Halifax County Board?
A No. I understand your question. It was whether
there was any effect on the Halifax County Board of
Education as to what------
Q Was the fact that the Scotland Neck issue had not
been determined, and apparently still has not been deter
mined, did that have any effect on the Halifax County
Board in submitting or not submitting another desegre
gation plan?
A No.
Q Now the question was asked this morning, Mr.
Overman, whether or not under the— I ask you the ques
tion now. Under the freedom of choice questionnaires
which were submitted to the students in the Halifax Unit
for the coming school year, did any white children re
quest permission to attend a predominantly Negro
school?
A Yes, they have. And I must explain that I was in
error, not I believe as to my answer when it was asked
before, but that I did not have the information. But as
of this time I have the list, and there were four white
340
children that requested the Thomas Shields School, which
is predominantly Negro.
Q Do you know how many requested it?
A Four.
Q Mr. Overman, is it advantageous from the admin
istrative standpoint, when changes are made in your
school attendance plan or in the desegregation plans, for
these plans to be made during the—to be submitted dur
ing the school year?
A Yes, it would be.
Q What are the advantages there?
A Well, for the length of time to make preparations
for reorganization of schools. And I think I could add,
too, the availability of people with whom we would work
in implementing this change, which would include all
the principals and the faculty members as well as par
ents who would normally attend parent teachers associa
tion meetings during the school term.
Q Approximately how long a period of time in weeks,
days or months do you consider it necessary in order to
effect major changes in the attendance areas, geographi
cal pairing of units or whatever it might be?
A We would need at least six months.
Q I gather then that it would not be feasible adminis
tratively or otherwise to make substantial changes in the
plans for the 1969-70 school year between now and the
opening of school, which I believe you said would be the
latter part of August?
MR. K E N N ED Y : Objection to leading the witness.
A That’s right.
Q (Mr. Crew) I believe you did say that our schools
would open the latter part of August?
A Yes. The 28th is the first full schoolday.
Q Mr. Overman, I direct your attention to the Gov
ernment’s Exhibit, the School Survey, Government’s Ex
hibit 2, page 7— page 7. Listed under major problems
there are four items listed as major problems. I direct
your attention to the fourth, which reads: The shifting
of pupil population brought about by the 1964 Civil
Rights Act. I ask you if you are in agreement with this
report, that the shifting—that this is a major problem?
341
A Yes.
Q You might have given this figure yesterday, but I
ask you, under the freedom of choice returns as you gave
them yesterday, statistically the number of Negro stu
dents that have requested admission to predominantly
white schools in the County for the year 1969-70?
A I do not have the sheet from which I read yester
day. Here it is. The number of Negro pupils?
Q Yes, sir, requesting admission to predominantly
white schools?
A Four is the number— no, no. I misunderstood you.
Q It is the number of Negro students who have re
quested through the freedom of choice admissions to pre
dominantly white schools?
A I believe I had to add that yesterday. I will have
to do the same thing to give you the exact answer. I
will have to add this. Would you want to do it by the
school, or just the total?
Q Just the total, approximately.
A 301 Negro. And you didn’t ask for the Indian, but
there are 76 Indian.
Q Mr. Overman, referring again to the plan sub
mitted by the County Board to the Justice Department,
I ask you if, since the rejection of that plan by the Jus
tice Department, if a study was being made and will
continue to be made with respect to consolidation of
schools in the Halifax Unit?
A Since the rejection of the plan?
Q I ask if one was not going on and actually con
tinued since the rejection of the plan?
A Yes.
Q And just recently, some ten days ago, I believe that
final report with respect to consolidation was made?
A Yes.
Q Now what action, if any, did the Halifax County
Board of Education take with respect to that suggested
plan of consolidation?
A To consolidate four high schools into one in the
northwestern section of the County, to be so located that
it might, if necessary, include part of what we consider
342
the southwestern section of the County. And, also, to
operate the Enfield School as a high school only, to oper
ate Eastman School as a high school only, and to operate
Brawley School as a high school only. Now there are
some variations in that, some would include seventh and
eighth grades— these last three that I mentioned.
Q Did the Board employ an architect to begin plans
with respect to this new school?
A Yes.
Q I believe that was Mr. Davis, of Roanoke Rapids?
A Yes.
Q And I believe— I ask was a committee appointed
to select sites and make future studies with respect to
this consolidation?
A Yes.
Q I believe you testified yesterday that a substantial
portion of the money necessary to build such a school is
already available from the State bond issue and from
other capital expenditures or proposed capital expendi
tures funded but not spent?
A Yes.
Q Now if that consolidation plan should be affected,
what effect, if any, would it have on the increased inte
gration of the schools in the County?
A Well, it would mean that the four high schools to
be consolidated would include two all Negro high schools
at present and two predominantly white schools into one
unit. At two other units it would be complete integra
tion of the high school.
Q This would be— the consolidation would in your
opinion result in complete and total integration in those
areas?
A There are three other areas. I believe I said two.
I meant three other areas.
Q Do you know the percentage of students by race
that would be in that consolidated school, the approxi
mate percentage?
A For the one high school as proposed for consoli
dating the four there would probably be around 50 per
cent Negro and 50 percent white, approximately.
343
Q From your many years experience as Superintend
ent and from your attendance at these various meetings
that you have had with respect to the selling of the plan
submitted to the Justice Department and rejected by the
Justice Department, is it your opinion that the commu
nities involved would accept this consolidation so that
the quality of education and excellence in education might
be continued?
A Yes. May I correct an answer. About fifty per
cent. I was thinking primarily of Negro. If you are
going to say non-white, there would be more non-white
than white in this consolidation because it would include
the Indians.
Q Do you know approximately what percentage would
be Indians? I ask in the interest of time would it not
be roughly five percent?
A Approximately.
Q So the net result then would be roughly 55 non
white and 45 percent white?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Overman, I ask your opinion from years of
experience as a Superintendent and your familiarity with
the local problem that, if total and complete integration
of all of our schools in the County Unit should be or
dered by September of this year, would it result in more
or less integration than we have had in the past?
A It is my opinion that it would result in less inte
gration. It is my belief that quite a number would wish
to enter private schools, more than have now entered.
MR, K EN N ED Y : I object and move that to be strick
en. This is completely irrelevant. It is very clear what
the law is on that point.
MR. CREW: We disagree with you. You have a
right to object.
Q (Mr. Crew) Mr. Overman, at the time that this
plan was submitted to the Justice Department in Febru
ary of 1969 was there a strong movement in the County
for the building of a private school?
MR. K EN N ED Y : Objection. Same objection.
A Your question is was there a movement at that
time?
344
Q (Mr. Crew) A t that time, yes, sir.
A Well, I would say soon after the plan was adopted
by the Board of Education there was a movement cre
ated.
Q After the Board of Education then reverted to the
freedom of choice plan for the current school year, did
the plans for building of the private school diminish?
A I’m not certain about that.
Q Is it your understanding that up to this date they
have only built a well or dug a well at the proposed site
of the private school?
MR. K EN N ED Y : Same objection.
A Yes, to my knowledge. I don’t know whether more
has been done.
Q (Mr. Crew) Mr. Overman, when was the last
county-wide bond issue for the school, school bond issue
in this County?
A 1957.
Q And do you know approximately how much money
went to the County Unit at that time?
A One million nine hundred thousand, approximately.
Q Approximately what percentage of that, if you
know, was expended for the building of Negro schools in
the County?
A Approximately 75 percent.
Q How many counties are there in North Carolina,
Mr. Overman?
A One hundred.
Q Do you— are the school situations different in each
of those one hundred counties in your opinion?
A Yes. I would certainly think there would be con
ditions that would vary in each of the counties.
Q Mr. _ Overman, if the consolidation— if and when
the consolidation, proposed consolidation in the western
part of the County is complete, do you know the approxi
mate number of courses that would be offered at that
school at that time?
A An estimate is 65 would be offered in that size
high school.
Q And what is the approximate average for the
County now, if you know?
345
A Well, it’s 38 to 40. I don’t know that that is the
average. It varies from year to year.
Q It is considerably less than the 65?
A Yes. Yes, approximately half is the average.
Q And I believe you testified yesterday, or either
through your own testimony or from reports, that the
number of courses offered in a school system was the
more courses offered the better quality of education that
you would anticipate?
A Yes, to meet the needs and the interests and the
abilities of all the children.
Q Now reference was made yesterday to the resolu
tion passed by the County Board amending the bounda
ries of the Scotland Neck Unit so as to include the build
ing that I believe was alleged to as the junior high school.
Now I ask if the action of the Board was not solely to
comply with the procedures set out in the statutes for
changing the boundaries of the administrative units, that
is, the adoption of the resolution?
A Yes.
Q That is required if a boundary is to be changed?
A Yes. It requires that both boards agree to this,
and the State Board of Education approve.
Q And I believe that the State law further provides
that a unit cannot operate a building if a building physi
cally is located outside of its own administrative units,
is that correct?
A Cannot operate a school if it is located outside of
its administrative unit?
Q Yes, sir.
A It is located outside of its administrative unit.
MR. CREW: I believe that is all, Mr. Kennedy.
EXAMINATION BY MR. KENNEDY:
Q Mr. Overman, going back to what you answered
for Mr. Josey: there was a long discussion concerning a
topic of ten busses, approximately, that would be— that
presently, this past year, served the Scotland Neck
Schools. From what source is the money— does the money
come from to pay for the operation of busses?
346
A State funds.
Q And if there are any savings effected through econ
omies and operation of busses of a local unit, does that
money go back to the County or to the State?
A It would not be expended by the State. It wouldn’t
go back. It would just not be expended.
Q Well, does it go back—can the County convert that
to buildings or teachers?
A No, unless— may I—
Q You can explain.
A — make an explanation before answering that ques
tion?
Q Yes.
A In the original purchase of school busses the County
or the school unit which operates those busses will pay
the costs and then, of course, the maintenance building
and facilities is the cost of the county funds. And the
operational costs then would be charged to the State
funds or the State funds would pay the operational costs.
Q For the coming year will the County Unit provide
bus transportation for children residing in the County
Unit that want to go to school in Scotland Neck?
A No.
Q Do you know how those children will get to school?
A I do not.
Q Do you know if they will be provided public bus
transportation?
A I do not. My opinion would be that they would
provide their own transportation.
Q Another question from Mr. Josey: you talked
about the effect on the interim plan appearing on page
15 of the County Survey. It is Plaintiff’s— or Govern
ment s Exhibit 2. And under that plan how many grades
would be taught at Scotland Neck?
A Under the interim plan?
Q Yes, sir.
A Ten through twelve.
Q Would those grades be taught at any other school
in what is—
.A Now this is— this would include both the junior
high school site and the Scotland Neck main campus.
347
Q Those three grades, ten through twelve, be taught
at any other school of what is referred to as District 1
of the interim plan?
A Will you repeat that, please?
Q Will grades ten through twelve be taught at any
other school of what is referred to as District 1 in the
interim plan?
A Not according to the plan recommended by the
State.
Q What is the— outside of the Brawley School, which
is on the edge of Scotland Neck, what is the closest high
school building to the Town of Scotland Neck, and ex
cluding the high school within the Town of Scotland
Neck?
A Approximately eighteen miles.
Q Was at Inborden? Enfield?
A Inborden and Enfield, too. Two buildings.
Q Were there any objections made by members of the
Board of Education to utilizing Scotland Neck and the
Brawley Schools and the other schools in District 1 as
appears in the interim plan?
A I don’t believe I understand your question.
Q Well, were there objections from members of the
Board of Education to utilizing the Scotland Neck School
as provided for in the interim plan?
A No.
Q Objections from anybody on utilizing the Scotland
Neck School?
A It was not brought to the attention of the Board
of Education.
Q Do you know of any?
A Of course, the Board of Education as I recall did
vary some here when they presented the plan to the Jus
tice Department.
Q Without the Scotland Neck building then the in
terim plan, with respect at least to District 1, would
have to be vastly altered, is that true?
A Let’s assume that with the junior high school site
and the present buildings on the main campus at Scot
land Neck that there would be adequate space for grades
ten through twelve, with possibly the use of some mobile
348
rooms. I believe they have four additional teaching sta
tions—would be needed in the total district.
Q But if the Scotland Neck main campus by the oper
ation of the Scotland Neck School Board were taken out
of the Halifax County Unit, then would it be easier to
adopt the interim plan or harder to adopt the interim
plan?
A I don’t know that there would be a difference.
Q Well, grades ten through twelve under the interim
plan are going to be taught only at Scotland Neck and
no place else in that district?
A According to this plan.
Q But if the— if the campus cannot be used by the
Halifax County Board, where are grades ten through
twelve going to be taught?
A Well, they would be taught in the Brawley School.
Q Referring to plaintiff’s Exhibit # 5 which is— I
believe you testified was the proposed plan of school or
ganization under the State interim plan, what is the ex
pected total pupil enrollment for 1969-70, enrollment for
Scotland Neck grades ten through twelve?
A This is a State plan, and you are speaking of that
plan?
Q Right.
A Scotland Neck, 710.
Q If the Scotland Neck main campus and the antici
pated enrollment of approximately a thousand children
were removed from the proposed State plan, what effect
would that have on the size of the remaining high school,
wherever it is going to be located—how large would the
high school be if all the Scotland Neck— if the one thou
sand Scotland Neck children were to be removed?
A Now you are considering that a thousand and
twenty-some pupils would be removed?
Q Yes, sir.
A The Brawley School, high school, is your question,
is that right?
Q I don’t know where you are going to locate them,
but assuming that you locate them in a high school.
A Well, this would be the only one within a reason
able distance of the children.
349
Q Right.
A I think I have the information here. Ten through
twelve.
Q Yes, sir.
A According to the freedom of choice form tabulation
would be 455 pupils.
Q Would that have any effect on the size— on the
number of courses that you would be able to teach and
the size of the academic program?
A That you would be able to teach compared to what
ever situation?
Q Compared to the number of courses that you could
provide for 710 children?
A I think more courses, different courses, would be
offered with a larger high school, yes.
Q There’s been some discussion about the geography
and the size of the County. Are there areas— is there a
belt of Halifax County of several miles which completely
surrounds and circles the town limits of Scotland Neck?
A A belt of what? I didn’t get part of your ques
tion.
Q Is the Town of Scotland Neck wholly surrounded
on all sides by territory of Halifax County?
A Yes.
Q It is not on the border of the County?
A No.
Q It is wholly within the County?
A That’s correct.
Q In the southeastern portion of the County?
A Yes.
Q Now in responding to Mr. Josey’s question about
some children residing in the Halifax County Unit under
terms with the Halifax County Unit to go into the Wel
don Unit, under an agreement of some sort, do you know
the race of these children?
A I do not.
Q Do you know what schools they go to?
A No, I haven’t been able to keep up with that be
cause I do not keep the records.
Q Do you know who knows the race?
350
A Yes, I think the school authorities of the Weldon
Unit would know that.
Q I see. Do you know the number of Halifax County
residents that would go into Roanoke Rapids for school?
A The number of County residents?
Q County administrative residents that go into Roa
noke Rapids to school.
A No, I do not have that information.
Q You mentioned that there are situations— there
were Roanoke Rapids City Administrative Unit pupils
or residents of that unit who go to two schools in the
County. One you named I believe was William R. Davie.
Did you name the other one?
A I did not name another school. From the Roanoke
Rapids Unit?
Q Yes.
A No. There is another school nearby but to my
knowledge no pupils from Roanoke Rapids attend that
school. That is the Everetts Elementary School.
Q Is it your testimony then that there is only one
school outside of the Roanoke Rapids City Administra
tive Unit in the County Unit that are attended by pupils
residing in the Roanoke Rapids City Administrative
Unit?
A Yes.
Q Do you know the race of these children?
A I am sure they are predominantly white. There
may be some Negro.
Q You had also told us about some children, I be
lieve, that go to Littleton and that are going to Haliwa?
A Yes, into the Warren County Schools, yes.
Q These last children who go to Weldon and go to
Roanoke Rapids, those are in addition to the ones who
have gone into Warren County, is that correct?
A Yes. There are a few children— and I don’t know
how many—that may be going from Halifax County
Unit— a very few—because of a phasing out plan. They
had started school before the Board of Education and
that particular unit had made its regulations, enforced
its regulations.
351
Q Are you aware of a ruling by the Federal District
Court on the question of whether white children in a
majority Negro school district can legally be permitted
to attend school in another district?
MR. JOSEY: I object.
MR. K EN N ED Y : I ask him if he is aware.
A I don’t know the exact decision of that case.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Are you familiar with any of the
Court rulings affecting the Northampton County School
Board, which is next door to the Halifax County—
MR. JOSEY: I object.
A To some extent. From what I have read in the
newspaper.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Did you know that Judge Lar
kins ordered the Northampton County School Board to
cease permitting white students residing in Northamp
ton County from attending school in Weldon?
MR. JOSEY: I object to that.
A I have heard that this was an order either from
the Department of Health, Education and Welfare or the
Courts.
Q Are you aware of any regulations that are called
the Health, Education and Welfare guidelines that were
—forbid transfers across unit boundary lines?
A I am aware of such regulations that have been in
effect, if they perpetuated the segregation of pupils, yes.
Q With respect to the bill introduced by Mr. Gregory
I believe in 1965 for a separate administrative unit for
schools in the southeastern part of the County, south
eastern part of the county unit, what was the plan of
pupil assignment that was used by the Halifax County
Unit at that time?
A Prior to the introduction?
Q At the time of the introduction.
A What was the plan of organization?
Q No, sir. The plan by which pupils were assigned.
Was it free choice or zones or what?
A Free choice, except for the transfer of certain
grades last August before we began opening school, and
I would be glad to—
352
Q 1965, it was free choice? That is when the bill was
introduced, wasn’t it?
A I didn’t get your question. Will you repeat that,
Mr. Kennedy?
Q You ̂testified, in response to Mr. Josey’s questions,
that the bill introduced in 1965 to provide a separate ad
ministrative unit— that was introduced in 1965, and my
question: was free choice used in the Halifax County
Unit at that time?
A Yes.
Q Was it also being used in all of the surrounding
administrative units?
A I do not know. I do recall that in Halifax County
we adopted a regulation. When I say free choice, it
began—
Q For some grades?
A At certain grades.
Q Some grades?
A That’s right. And I don’t recall that there was
any free choice for any pupils in surrounding counties
and units. I think this was 1965-66, if I am not mis
taken.
Q You also then testified in response to Mr. Josey’s
question that— that there was some— a proposal made
to some officials in Raleigh in 1966 for a consolidated
school which, I believe, was to be located on the junior
high school campus right outside of Scotland Neck. You
remember talking with Mr. Josey about that?
A Oh, yes.
Q Was freedom of choice, at least for some grades,
still being used in Halifax County in 1966?
A Yes. It began in the year— the school term 1965-
66. There were some limitations to that in that year.
Q Do you have any reason to believe that if the con
solidated school had been built, that it would not be
subject to freedom of choice? How would that have been
operated—by freedom of choice or what?
A That school would have been operated by freedom
of choice if built at that particular time. I am sure of
that.
353
Q What high schools would have been included in the
areas serviced by the consolidated school? What then
existing high schools would be consumed or consolidated
into the new school?
A Well, this proposal was to—for a school to be built
to serve all high school pupils in the entire area, known
as the Scotland Neck attendance area, and would have
included high school students now attending Brawley
and Scotland Neck.
Q What would have happened to the—what grades
would have been taught at Brawley?
A Well, this I do not know because there was noth
ing said about whether or not they would be given a
choice for a while but certainly the school would have
been built with an idea of serving all children in that
area, if necessary.
Q That would have given you the new high school on
the junior high school campus, the high school on the
main high school campus, and the high school at Braw
ley. Were you going to operate the three high schools?
A I would assume that on the main campus at Scot
land Neck there would have been only elementary chil
dren. Whether there would have continued to have been
some high school students in the Brawley School I do
not know. This was not presented as a consolidated—-I
mean the closing of two high schools. It was presented
in the manner of serving the high school pupils in the
area.
Q Was there any plan to close down the high school
grades at Brawley as a part of this consolidation plan?
A It was not in the plan that was presented to the
review panel.
Q Did the plan that was presented include closing
down the high school grades at the main Scotland Neck
campus?
A That was not so stated, but it would have— would
have accommodated all of those now attending Scotland
Neck Schools.
Q Are you saying—
A And it was so stated, that it would serve all the
high school pupils in that area, but there was nothing
354
said in the plan that a certain high school would be
closed. It was just understood that it might, that it
would be. Now, to elaborate on that— but I will just
answer your question.
Q Do you wish to elaborate, Mr. Overman. If you do,
please go ahead.
A Well, I think everyone was operating—I mean
schools certainly in the south, according to freedom of
choice, as long as they were allowed to do so, until April
a year ago when the Courts said that that was uncon
stitutional if it did not bring about a unitary school sys
tem, so this is the reason I am answering that question.
Q How many classrooms would this consolidated
school have had, sir?
A I don’t recall.
Q Do you have records that show that?
A Yes.
Q Do you know how many students would— the plans
would call for to accommodate— to be accommodated
there?
A I do not have those exact figures.
Q Was the school to be built in stages as you de
scribed for use at the new—
A It would have been built in my opinion so that it
could be added to if more room was needed, yes.
Q Do you know whether the amount— the number of
students that were planned for at the new consolidated
school exceeded five hundred?
A Yes.
Q By how much, sir?
A I would_ say at least six hundred at that time.
And if you wish to have a copy of this plan that was
presented, I wish you would take a break and let me get
the record.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
Q (Mr. Kennedy) Mr. Overman, in the break that
we—just before we took the break you had volunteered
to get some records of yours that would facilitate your
answering some of your inquiries about the size and the
other characteristics of the consolidated schools. Do you
have those records with you now?
355
A Yes.
Q Do your records show how many classrooms would
have been provided for in this school that we are talking
about?
A This reports lists the number of different types of
rooms, and if you will allow me, I will read each one.
One library room, one home economics room, one biology
or all science room, one physics-chemistry room, one
business education room, twelve other high school class
rooms, one agriculture shop, one general shop, one music
room, one audiovisual room, one health clinic room, one
guidance room, one teachers room— that is intended to
be a lounge— two administrative office rooms, a gym
nasium, and showering room, lunchroom, storage rooms,
and so on. The anticipated cost of this building in 1960
was $750,000.00.
Q So— you said 1960.
A 1966. February 1966.
Q Fm sorry. What was this amount again, please?
A $750,000.00.
Q Do you have any information about the pupil ca
pacity that the building would be rated for?
A It is not stated on this form.
Q How many teaching stations or teachers would be
assigned there?
A This is not stated, but you may do some adding
here. Be 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19— at least 20
teachers.
Q Teachers?
A Yes. Teachers rooms.
Q Teachers rooms. Is that equivalent to the number
of teaching stations?
A Yes.
Q You have one teacher for each teaching station?
A Assuming that we would have—
Q Assuming you would have twenty teachers?
A Yes.
Q Is that a maximum or close to a maximum?
A Well, this was the plan that was presented to the
State Board of Education. It was not stated in this ap
plication whether there would be other rooms built or
356
not, but as I recall the agreement was that they would
be built as needed. And, of course, this report—this
presentation to the State review panel did not say that
there would be consolidations immediately, but it did say
to serve all the high school pupils of the Scotland Neck
area.
Q Well, you have testified that there are— at that
time there were only two high schools in the Scotland
Neck area, the Scotland Neck High School and the Braw-
ley School?
A Yes.
Q Was this a consolidated proposal for a four-year
high school, grades nine through twelve?
A Yes.
Q You were going to retain your grade structure
breakdown, one through eight and nine through twelve,
which is the general grade structure you have?
A Yes.
Q Which of any of the two high schools, Scotland
Neck or the Brawley, could be accommodated in a build
ing such as you have described to us?
A There would be a need for other classrooms to ac
commodate all of the pupils in the two high schools.
Q Could the Brawley High School have been closed
down and accommodated in toto?
A In this request that was made at that time?
Q Yes, sir.
A There would have been need for other classrooms
at that time.
Q But could the Scotland Neck High School—
A You mean Brawley alone?
Q Brawley alone, yes, sir.
A Approximately, yes.
Q How many high school students, approximately,
could both Brawley and Scotland Neck have accommo
dated?
A How many high school pupils?
Q No> could both the Brawley and Scotland Neck
High Schools— could they have been jointly together ac
commodated in the new facility?
357
A I could not say whether all of the pupils could
with this much building, but there could have been other
rooms built as needed.
Q Well, could the— to make it clear, could the stu
dents at the four top high school grades of the Brawley
School, without any students from Scotland Neck, could
the Brawley high school students have been accommodated
at the new facilities?
A Yes. Approximately twenty teachers from Brawley
School.
Q Well, what is the usual classroom—pupil classroom
average; is it around 25 students per classroom?
A Approximately that. In high school level, of course,
the allotment of teachers, that is the basic of teachers,
of academic teachers— it’s a formula: twenty pupils for
the— I mean sixty pupils for the first three teachers and
then thirty thereafter.
Q Well, does the County survey use the figure—
County Survey, I mean the Plaintiff’s Exhibit # 2 —use
the figure 25 pupils per classroom as the average figure?
A I think this correct.
Q Well, if we use that average figure of 25 pupils
per classroom and we have approximately twenty class
rooms at the consolidated school, doesn’t that give us a
capacity of 500 children— twenty-five pupils per class
room and twenty classrooms?
A Twenty-five pupils and twenty classrooms, yes.
Q Gives us a capacity of about five hundred?
A That’s right.
Q Was the number of high school students at Braw
ley considerably in excess of five hundred students at
that time?
A At that time I suppose it was between five hun
dred and six hundred pupils.
Q Well, would it differ very much from the number
of high school students at the Brawley School in the year
just past— did it differ very much?
A Yes. The high schools are growing in the Negro
schools because there are more pupils finishing high school
than have been before. The high schools have been grow
ing, particularly in the all Negro schools, because they
358
have greater holding power that they give until they
graduate.
Q Well, do you have records that show the number
of average daily attendance at the Brawley High School
in 1965-66?
A Yes, we have that record, but it would take some
time to—
Q I’m just asking if you have that record?
A Yes, we have it.
Q Okay. Has the number of high school students at
the Scotland Neck High School, grades nine through
twelve, increased or decreased or remained the same when
comparing 1965 with 1968?
A I’d say it has increased.
Q Well, but do I understand correctly it would be
your testimony that without additional facilities it would
have been impossible to accommodate all of Brawley and
all of Scotland Neck in one consolidated school?
A In this plan that was presented there would have
been need for additional classroom space.
Q You discussed with Mr. Josey the tax rate in this
proposed bill, and I believe you told him it would be about
twenty-five cents per one hundred dollar valuation, and
you also discussed the figure of sixty-three cents per one
hundred dollar valuation, I believe was the County’s com
bination per capita— I’m sorry, capital outlay fund and
debt service, and that that—
A It was a combination of capital outlay and debt
service that made the sixty-three cents back in 1957.
Q 1957. And that has decreased to— that is now at
twenty-nine and a quarter cents per hundred dollar valu
ation?
A Yes.
Q What has happened to the assessed valuation of
the County; has it increased or decreased or remained
the same?
A It has increased.
Q Are there figures in the County Survey, Plaintiff’s
Exhibit # 2 , on page 33, that will show you the amount
of the assessed valuation for the County from years 1963
to 1967?
359
A Yes.
Q And do those figures show an increase or decrease
or are they constant?
A An increase in valuation.
Q Is it true that the increase over the five year pe
riod, 1963 to 1967 increase is from roughly just under
eighty-seven million dollars to about a hundred nine mil
lion dollars?
A That is correct.
Q An increase of some twenty-two million dollars, is
that right?
A Yes.
Q And, of course, that is the very important part of
the equation which you are talking about, the tax rate;
you have to know what the tax rate is going to be ap
plied on, don’t you?
A Yes.
Q It is not a complete story just to talk about the
tax rate, is it?
A It is not because of the increase in building costs.
Q Do you know what the—
A Has risen rapidly.
Q Do you know what the amount of the assessed
valuation is for the current tax year, sir?
A The current tax year?
A Yes, sir.
Q Total?
A Total assessed valuation. I’m trying to find out
what the 1969—
A Approximately one hundred fourteen million dol
lars.
Q It’s gone up one hundred fourteen million dollars?
A Yes.
Q Do you know if the— you have testified that the tax
rate for capital outlays has decreased from 1957 through
the current tax year; at least it has decreased from the
combination that you have indicated there for the cur
rent year?
A Yes.
Q And you have also testified that for a part of that
period the base of the assessed valuation has increased.
360
Do you know whether the amount produced by the tax
levy has increased or decreased with respect to the capi
tal outlay fund; the total amount that has been put into
the fund— has it increased or decreased?
A Well, it has decreased because the tax rate has
decreased even though the assessed evaluation has in
creased.
Q Are you saying that just because— I mean do you
actually know what those figures are?
A I do not know the exact figures, but an increase
in five million dollars evaluation would not take care of
the decrease in capital outlay rate of, say, two cents or
something of that sort.
Q Have you told this, or do you know what the capi
tal outlay rate was in 1957? We know what the total
combined rate was in 1957, but we don’t know what the
capital outlay portion was.
A I believe it was twenty cents for debt service at
that time and forty-three cents for capital outlay. Now
I can get this information if you want to take the time
for it.
_ Q Going back for a moment to the plan for consolida
tion that— we recall the 1966 consolidation plan which
you just testified. Was there any other plan at that time
which would have in any way affected schools outside of
the Scotland Neck area?
A Yes. A plan was presented that included this Scot
land Neck building, which included an addition for the
White Oak School, the Scotland Neck High School, a
lunchroom at the Brawley School, a lunchroom at Mclver
School, and a lunchroom at Eastman School, and a lunch
room at Inborden School.
Q Was the plan you have just described—
A Now may I say that there was not money avail
able immediately for all of this construction but this
was a plan that was presented to the review panel so that
they could build some facilities when the money was
available.
Q Again referring to the time— back to the time when
the plan was proposed, was there any discussion of chang
ing from the freedom of choice plan to a straight geo
361
graphic zone plan for any part of the County system at
that time?
A There was not at that time that I remember.
Q Had any persons representing the Civil Rights En
forcement people, that is the Department of Health, Edu
cation and Welfare, had any discussion with you about
civil rights compliance prior to time this 1966 plan was
proposed?
A Yes, we have had conferences in Washington with
HEW officials, set up conferences in Raleigh, and they
have visited us several times. Now to get the exact dates
— some visits occurred before 1966 and some have oc
curred since then. I believe that is correct.
Q Had you or anybody on behalf of the School Board
that you know of told any of those persons that you were
going to eliminate freedom of choice in the County at
any date in the future?
A In 1966 had we told them?
Q Yes, sir.
A Not that I know of.
Q Were they interested in that kind of information?
MR. CREW : Object. I don’t see how he can know
what they were interested in.
Q (Mr. Kennedy) In your discussions were any in
terests expressed by the HEW people for a target date
in the future when freedom of choice would be elimi
nated?
A Repeat the question, please.
Q I’m not sure I can. In your discussions in 1966
with HEW civil rights people was there any discussion
of a future date when freedom of choice would be elimi
nated in whole or in part in the Halifax County Unit?
A It is difficult for me to pinpoint that date, Mr.
Kennedy, but I would say in 1966 units were allowed to
have freedom of choice. Now soon afterwards, possibly
1967 or certainly by 1968, they said that they must in
crease integration, both pupils and teachers, as rapidly
as we could.
Q When the proposal of the 1966, consolidated school
proposal was drawn up, was there any discussion of the
effect the proposal would have on the desegregation of
the schools of Halifax County?
362
A Was there any discussion by who?
Q By you or anybody that you know of?
A Well, certainly the Board of Education did discuss
this and it was discussed before the review panel that
this school would be a school that would serve the Scot
land Neck area. Now whether there was discussion with
the officials of HEW I do not recall.
Q How was—how was the consolidated school going
to affect the increase or the decrease of the amount of
desegregation in Halifax County?
A Well, if it was on the basis of freedom of choice
without the consolidation of schools I do not know. It
would depend on— it would have depended on what the
children and their parents chose.
Q You discussed with Mr. Josey about some figures
in which the Tryon City School System was mentioned.
Just to refresh your memory— is the policy of the State
Department of Public Instruction, State of North Caro
lina, to encourage smaller— the creation of smaller ad
ministrative units in North Carolina?
A Did you say ‘increase’ or ‘decrease’?
Q Encourage the creation of new small administra
tive units in the State of North Carolina.
A And your question is: is it the policy for the State
Department of Public Instruction to encourage that?
Q Yes.
A I’d say: no.
Q Is it the policy of the State Department of Public
Instruction of the State of North Carolina to encourage
consolidation of schools?
A Now, when you speak of the State Department of
Public Instruction, are you speaking of the State Super
intendent of Public Instruction only or all of the people
in the State Department? Now just what do you refer
to?
Q All right. Let’s talk about the Superintendent.
A All right. I would say that it is the policy of the
State Superintendent of Public Instruction to encourage
the consolidation or merger of some of the smaller units.
Q Well, I didn’t— I asked really about schools, but
363
I was going to get to the merger of units, also, but if
your answer—
A You did not ask me.
Q I asked about the consolidation of schools.
A Sir, I am going to have to be slower in listening
to you than I have been. Would you ask the question as
you meant it, please?
Q I will ask the question in this way: does the State
Superintendent encourage the consolidation, one, of
schools and, two, of merger of small—
A Yes.
Q And, two, to have merger of small units?
A Yes.
Q There’s been some discussion of Dr. Cochran. He
is a Negro doctor, is he, in Weldon?
A Yes.
Q And the amount of money that he was paid for
services for some pupils during 1968 and 1969. What
was the name of the program that these pupils were in
that provided the federal monies to pay Dr. Cochran?
A It was a pre-school readiness program for children
who are expected to attend school the following year— a
six weeks program of pre-readiness.
Q Do you know of any white children who were re
ferred to Dr. Cochran either year under this program?
A Referred to, after his examination?
Q No, sir, as a part of this program did he examine
any white children?
A Yes.
Q He did?
A Yes. All who attended, as far as I know.
* * * *
EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEY:
Q Mr. Overman, on this request in 1966 for the con
solidated high school or for the school to be built on a
location of the present so-called junior high in Scotland
Neck, that building was in addition to the present junior
high building, wasn’t it— the building that you described?
A Yes.
364
Q Was in addition to the present facility over there?
A That’s correct.
Q Now, wasn’t it the plan that if that building could
be built, to tear down the old Scotland Neck grammar
school building, that old building— and it was built in
1903— and for what is now or this past year used for the
high school to be used as a graded school only?
A Yes, to utilize that which was thought to be usable,
yes.
Q And do you recall being at a meeting with Dr.
Pearce in Dr. Craig Phillips’ office—then Dr. Carroll’s
office— at which time a discussion took place between Mr.
Pearce and Mr. Henry Harrison, a member of the Hali
fax Board at that time, regarding the fact that this
would be a consolidated and integrated school for Braw-
ley— Scotland Neck generally?
A Well, the statement, as I recall, was this building
would be built to serve all of the high school children in
this area. Now about the definite plans for discontinuing
the high school, I do not recall that— consolidating any
high school.
Q Of course, the present facilities of the junior high
building over there, plus the building that you described
here that was proposed, was certainly far larger than
was necessary for Scotland Neck High School alone,
wasn’t it?
A That is correct.
Q Do you remember how many students we had ap
proximately in the high school in Scotland Neck at that
time?
A My estimate is around 300.
Q And at that time that was— the building that you
described here, that you have here, that you have re
ferred to on this form, was all the money that the Board
of Education felt like it could supply to the— for the
Scotland Neck facility—isn’t that correct?
A Yes.
Q Was one of the main reasons that the Board or
Mr. Pearce’s division of the State Superintendent of
Schools’ office turned it down was that it wasn’t enough
365
—was not enough physical land there at that site? Do
you remember why they turned down the request?
A Well, this was one thing that was mentioned, that
it would require more land for a high school than the
ten acres and eight-tenths I believe we now have.
Q But as far as you remember and as far as you
know there was certainly no requirement presented con
cerning integration— no requirement made by the State
Board which the people of Scotland Neck refused to meet
at that time, was there?
A No.
MR. JOSEY: All right. I believe that’s all.
EXAMINATION BY MR. CREW:
Q Mr. Overman, are there at the present time in the
school district areas or some of the school district areas
white population of less than ten percent as the total
population in some of the— in some of the schools in the
County now?
A Yes, I would say so. Now I do not know exactly
what you mean, Mr. Crew, whether you are talking about
—you see the two schools are located close to one another.
Now do you mean that to be one school or two schools?
Q I will reword my question then if I may. Are
there certain Negro schools in the County that the gen
eral attendance covered by them, that the population
would be approximately ninety percent Negro or more?
A Yes, in the elementary school attendance areas,
definitely about that.
* * * *
HENRY L. HARRISON
Being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. BOURNE:
Q Would you state your name and address for the
record, please?
A Henry L. Harrison, 1806 Clarksville Drive, Scot
land Neck.
366
Q Mr. Harrison, what business do you carry on?
A I’m in the oil business. Operating manager, whole
sale oil distributorship in the City and surrounding area
of Scotland Neck.
Q How much education do you have, sir?
A I completed two years in the engineering school at
North Carolina State College back in the thirties.
Q Where did you attend public school before then?
A Right here in Scotland Neck.
Q Do you have any children in school here?
A No, sir.
Q Did your children attend school?
A Yes. They attended and graduated here, and one
has finished college and the other one is a junior in col
lege at the present time.
Q Have you held any public office in Halifax County;
have you ever held—held public office here?
A In Halifax County. None other than as a member
of the School Board.
Q What were the dates of your membership on the
School Board?
A From November 1955 until December 1968.
Q Were you the only representative on the School
Board from the Scotland Neck area?
A Yes, sir. Now we had a member from the Hob-
good area, but the Scotland Neck area, as such, as I was
the only member.
Q Were you vice-chairman of the School Board?
A Yes, sir.
Q During the whole period you were on it?
A No, sir. No, sir. Probably the last seven or eight
years I’ve been vice-chairman of the School Board.
Q Now, Mr. Harrison, it is my understanding— strike
that. Is it correct that in November of 1968 you took a
trip to Tryon, North Carolina—
MR. JOSEY: Let me interrupt. Off the record just
a minute.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
A Would you state your question again, sir?
Q (Mr. Bourne) In November of last year or there
abouts did you take a trip to Tryon, North Carolina?
367
A I think November is the right month, yes, sir.
Q Do you recall who went with you on this trip?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who did?
A Mr. Gregory, Mr. Shields, and Mr. Josey and I.
Q For the record, could you give the first names of
those people?
A Mr. Frank Shields, Mr. C. Kitchin Josey, and Mr.
Thorne Gregory.
Q Do you recall the purpose of this trip?
A State your question again, sir.
Q Do you recall the purpose of this trip?
A Yes, sir. The purpose of this trip was to determine
if it were feasible to operate a small school system such
as Tryon has. I had been informed that they had the
smallest school system in the State of North Carolina—
city school system, that is.
Q Do you recall who told you that—gave you that in
formation?
A I got that information from the State Department
of Public Instruction’s record, the book you have in your
— Profile of Education, I believe it is. It was published
and distributed to the members of the Board of Educa
tion in the latter part of 1968 or early 1969, sometime
in that area.
Q Did you correspond with the people who run the
Tryon school system prior to taking a trip out there?
A Only by telephone.
Q Do you know if anyone else here corresponded with
them in writing?
A No, sir.
Q Do you recall who you spoke to?
A Yes, sir. I spoke to a Mr. Dussenberry, whom I
did not know, over the telephone.
Q The purpose, I believe you stated— am I correct—
was to determine whether it was feasible to operate a
school system as small as the one in Tryon?
A That is correct.
Q While there did you take any notes or make any
records as to the manner in which the Tryon School Sys
tem was operated?
368
A Only—no, sir. Only mental notes. We secured a
copy of his budget for that school system for the previous
year. He went over it with us and explained it to us,
showing us—we were primarily interested in local funds
—how much they had in local supplemental taxes to oper
ate. And to compare it against what we would have in
this area.
Q Did you finance this trip on your own or was it
financed by someone else?
A Well, I think we paid for the gas, I believe. We
flew up. And we paid Mr. Gregory— in Mr. Gregory’s
plane, his individual plane— and I believe I paid for the
gas. That was on my own, too.
Q I believe I asked you about your own notes or rec
ords?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did anyone else take any notes or maintain any
records or memorandums?
A None that I know of, sir.
Q Except for the budget?
A Except for the budget.
Q And do you recall— do you know who has posses
sion of the budgetary material that you picked up?
A I think Mr. Josey has that.
Q How long prior to your trip to Tryon had you been
engaged in conversations—had you heard conversations
indicating interest in Scotland Neck in developing a new
independent school district for the Town of Scotland
Neck?
MR. JOSEY: Off the record.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
A Will you state that again, please, sir?
Q (Mr. Bourne) How long prior to your trip to Try-
on was it when you first heard a conversation concerning
the desirability or non-desirability of developing an inde
pendent school system for the Town of Scotland Neck?
MR. JOSEY: Well, I object.
A Well, that goes— to answer that truthfully, that,
I’d have to say there’s been conversations concerning an
independent school system in Scotland Neck since we in
369
troduced the bill in the Legislature in 1965. There have
been people that have been interested in it all these num
ber of years because of the fact that they realized get
ting supplemental and additional taxes county-wide was
going to be a problem.
Q Am I correct in assuming that the bill in 1965
did not involve a proposal for the school district, for the
Town by itself, but for a larger area?
A You are correct, sir. It involved four townships.
Q Four townships. What were they?
A Conoconnara, Scotland Neck, Palmyra, and Rose-
neath.
* * * *
Q I’m sorry; it’s not quite clear to me. Well-strike
that. Do you know whether any sample ballots or leaf
lets were passed out at the polling place on the day of
the election which favored passage of the referendum of
the school system?
A To my knowledge, no, sir. The only ballots that
were used were used by the colored citizens who had
a delegation there that would talk to their group as they
entered the polls, and they had sample ballots to show
them. Other than that, I don’t know of any that took
place.
Q I believe you also testified that you— strike that.
Do you know—you say you don’t know anyone who
passed out leaflets or sample ballots in favor of the bill?
A No, sir. No, sir. There was advertisements in the
COMMONWEALTH and leaflets passed out in opposition
to the bill by the colored people.
Q I believe you testified that you made a statement
before the Legislature, before a committee of the Legis
lature, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you recall the substance of your remarks to the
Legislature?
A Yes, sir. I think the only thing that I said to the
Legislature—I brought up the fact that we had lost fifty-
five children from this area to private schools and that
I thought that this type of thing, unless something was
done to hold our public schools and the support of our
public schools, that this type of thing was going to con
370
tinue, which would eventually siphon most of our white
students away from our units. I believe that was the
extent of my remarks before the committee. Someone
spoke prior to me and I thought covered everything very
well.
Q The private schools that you have reference to,
which— do you know where they are?
A Yes, sir. There is one over in Jackson in North
ampton County. There is one in Rocky Mount in the
process of being built that will be open this fall— a brand
new one. There is one called the Enfield School, but that
actually is in Whitakers. Now, what they have done is
bought an old school building that has been abandoned by
Nash County over there. And at that time there was a
threat of another school, a private school, being opened
in the Hobgood area. And, also, I have heard— I don’t
know how true it is—that there has been one in the
Halifax area. I don’t know how true that is.
Q Do you know the race of the pupils who attend
these schools?
A Private schools?
Q Yes, sir.
A As a general rule, most of them are white, I’m
sure.
Q Do you know of any Negro school— do you know
of any Negroes that attend these schools that you men
tioned?
A No, sir, I do not. They are all tuition schools. I
don’t think they accept them.
Q Do you recall, while you were a member of the
School Board, negotiations with federal authorities con
cerning desegregation of schools in Halifax County?
A Yes, sir. Back as early as 1964 or 1965, with
H.E.W.
Q What sort of plans were developed by the local
school system prior to that time? Generally, were they
zoning, free choice?
A No. Prior to 1968 everything that was done in
Halifax County was freedom of choice.
Q Do you recall the first contact that the County
School Board had with the Department of Justice in
Washington concerning the operation of schools here?
371
A Yes, sir. I believe it was in August of 1967 or ’8.
In June, I believe, one of your people came down and
investigated Mr. Overman’s office, and about—he report
ed that to the Board at that time— and about thirty or
sixty days later, something like that, he reported at the
Board meeting that this letter he had received from them,
saying that we were not in compliance. That was shortly
before school began this year— I believe it was the be
ginning of the 1968 school year. 1967-68 school year, I
believe.
Q Would you read this letter which I am showing to
you? It is a letter dated July 27, 1968, a copy of the
letter dated July 27, 1968.
A Read the whole letter?
Q Well, just look it over and determine whether that
is the letter— that is a copy of the letter that you had
reference to in your remarks.
A I couldn’t tell you that. I never saw the letter, sir.
All I— Mr. Overman put—
MR. BOURNE: Off the record.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
MR. JOSEY: Well, I think he answered your ques
tion. He never saw it.
A I never saw it. Mr. Overman just put these things
on the note in the agenda for the Board, a letter from
so-and-so, stating we are not complying, and then he
usually reads those letters. Whether I was at that meet
ing or not— I never saw that letter. But I never saw
that letter. No, sir.
Q (Mr. Bourne) Now, just for the purposes of clari
fication, if you can remember—please get as close to the
time as you can—when you first heard from the_ Depart
ment of Justice—you heard of this letter. Was it in the
summer of 1967 or was it in the summer of 1968?
A The summer of—well, I’m sure it was— the first we
heard from the Justice Department was in 1968. That
was the year that we had to transfer students right at
the last minute, and that— the date on that letter indi
cates, because— the first meeting we had was August and
school was beginning the latter part of August and we
372
had less than thirty days to make all of these arrange
ments, and we were in a mess.
Q Do you recall whether a delegation from your
School Board travelled at that time to Washington to
negotiate with the Department of Justice?
A Yes, sir. Our School Board has travelled to Wash
ington on every occasion we have had— where there was
a letter written from them we have sent a delegation to
see what could be worked out.
Q Do you recall what ultimate plan the School Board
came up with in order to meet the requirements of the
federal law in August of 1968 prior to the last school
year?
A You mean that was in effect in 1968?
Q Yes.
A Well, what we did was— I’m more familiar with
this area, but I think it generally worked throughout the
County. We closed the seventh and eighth grade at the
Brawley High School and moved those children to the
Junior High School in Scotland Neck. I think we closed
the seven grades in Enfield and moved those children to
the Enfield Graded School, and I believe we closed the
seventh and eighth grade at Chaloner and the seventh
and eighth grade at Littleton— I mean, at Mclver, and
sent Chaloner’s children to Davie and Littleton children
to Aurelian Springs.
Q Do you recall how much desegregation there had
been prior to this date— strike all of that. Prior to the
adoption of this plan in August 1968 how many Negro
children were attending Scotland Neck School in the
1967-68 school year?
A I would say probably 35 were attending the white
—predominantly white school in 1967.
Q How many white children were attending Brawley
School?
A I don’t believe there were any, sir.
Q Did these transfers of non-white students to—
strike that. Did these non-white students who attended
Scotland Neck go there on the basis of freedom of choice?
A Yes, sir, I believe they did. In 1967, you’re refer
ring to?
373
Q 1967-68.
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you recall how many attended Scotland Neck
School in 1968-69, in the Scotland Neck School?
A I would say there were in the neighborhood of two
hundred colored students in 1968-69, Mr. Bourne. Now,
sir, these figures are all guesswork on my part, but I as
sume that is about right. Mr. Overman has given those
figures— could give them to you.
Q I would like to show you forms sent to the Govern
ment by Halifax County School Board in the Fall of
1968, and this is for the Scotland Neck School. This is
the 7001 Form. This is the approximate. Is that figure,
a hundred ninety-three pupils, approximately correct?
A Well, this is Mr. Henry Overman’s signature, and
I assume this is as correct as he knew how to get it.
Yes, sir, a hundred ninety-three is what the figure shows.
Q Prior to the adoption of this plan how many Negro
teachers taught in the Scotland Neck School?
A Prior to 1968?
Q Right. In the 1967-68 year how many Negro
teachers taught in the Scotland Neck School?
A I couldn’t answer that question, sir. I don’t re
member. I would think there were one or two probably
back in 1967.
Q Do you recall how many there were in 1968-69?
How many teachers there were in the Scotland Neck
School?
A I would say there were six or eight possibly, Mr.
Bourne.
Q On the basis of those estimates which you believe to
be substantially correct, would you say that substantial
ly desegregation of the Scotland Neck Schools resulted?
What caused this— strike all of that.
MR. JOSEY: Object.
Q (Mr. Bourne) On the basis of these figures, which
I believe you stated that you believe are substantially
correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many of these children—I believe— strike all
of that. I believe you have testified that there are ap
374
proximately 35 Negro pupils in Scotland Neck in 1967-
68 and approximately a hundred ninety-three or two
hundred in 1968-69. Is that correct?
A That is correct, sir, in my opinion, yes, sir.
Q That is an increase of about a hundred sixty stu
dents, roughly, isn’t it?
A About that, yes, sir.
Q Do you recall whether most of these one hundred
sixty students were persons who attended the seventh and
eighth grade in the Scotland Neck School?
A Prior—you mean prior to 1968?
Q No. There were— strike all of that. I think you
have just said that there were approximately a hundred
sixty new Negro students in the Scotland Neck School
in 1968-69 who had not been there previously?
A That’s correct.
Q Were most of these new Negro students at Scotland
Neck attending the seventh and eighth grade at Scotland
Neck as a result of the transfer of Negro pupils from
Brawley, which you made reference to earlier?
A They were attending as a result of the order clos
ing the seventh and eighth grades in the Brawley High
School.
Q And most of them were, is that correct?
A Most of the new ones were because the seventh and
eighth grade no longer existed in the high school. It was
the only seventh and eighth grade in the City, within the
City area.
Q Among seventh and eighth grade students do you
know a majority of them in the Scotland Neck School
were white or Negro?
A I would say they were predominantly Negro in the
seventh and eighth grade.
Q Do you recall the approximate percentage of them
who were Negro?
A No, sir, I don’t. I don’t know the figures.
* * * *
Q Do you believe that that would have been one of
your reasons for wanting to have a good survey done?
A I think it was. One of my reasons was that I
wanted to get on with the business of education and get
375
some new facilities for Scotland Neck. I felt that the
integration problem would take care of itself as time
went by. We have been in dire need of funds for build
ing purposes. And I don’t remember when that three mil
lion dollar bond issue was voted—maybe these gentlemen
can tell you— but I know that money has been sitting up
there five to seven years and hadn’t been used and I
thought it was used.
Q I believe you said you were not present at the
meeting that voted to ask that the survey be made?
A That’s right.
Q In your official capacity of— as a member of the
School Board did you have conversations with the other
members of the School Board concerning this prior re
quest?
A No. I think I am on record on several occasions
in asking that the survey be made. I think Henry Over
man will tell you not only that, but in several prior years
I had requested survey after survey and I couldn’t get
anywhere with the Board with it.
Q Let me just show you page 7 of Plaintiff’s Exhibit
# 2 , of the survey, the Halifax County Survey, 1968,
“Major Problems, number four at the top of the page,
is indicated: “The shifting of pupil population brought
about by the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
MR. JOSEY: What is the question?
Q (Mr. Bourne) Is that one—was that one of the
major problems of of the school district in your view as
a member of the School Board?
A Well, I think when he refers to that is when you
people— and I refer to you people, the Justice Department
or H.E.W., whoever it is giving the orders—waiting un
til July or August, thirty days before school starts, and
we have to come up within thirty days and move trailers
and move electrical connections within— just completely
rearrange organization of the whole school within thirty
days. I think that is what he means—the major problem.
I don’t think that race would enter into it, but if you
could in right today and do the same thing and have to
move all the trailers around and move all of these peo
ple, it would create quite a problem for the County. Not
376
only the County, but everybody involved administratively.
And you must remember that this was done within about
thirty days. A final determination was made within
about thirty days of school starting, or probably less.
Q Do you recall that there would be any long-range
problems that the school system would have to deal with
on a County-wide basis if total desegregation comes to
the County in light of your experience as a member of
the School Board for fourteen years?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q Would there have to be shifting of certain facili
ties, expansion of certain facilities, closing of others per
haps?
A I’m sure there would, yes, sir.
Q So, then, in determining a long-range plan for
Scotland Neck, for Halifax County, a plan of construc
tion or in operation of school buildings, in an area where
prior to 1968-69 there had not been total desegregation of
public schools, you would have to consider possible de
segregation at least in the future in determining what
your plans would be, is that correct?
A Well, Mr. Bourne, the responsibility for school con
struction rests with the people of this County. The funds
for that are provided locally, except in rare occasions.
Since I’ve been on the Board there has been one State
wide bond issue and we haven’t been able to spend any
of that money even yet, in the thirteen years I’ve been
on the Board. The attitude of people, the tax structure
involved throughout the County, and the other things that
go on in the County have an awful— I mean, they are re
lated to this thing of construction. I think you will find
in our County percentage-wise we spend about— the State
average of percentage of taxes collected as any—we are
about the State average based on percentage of taxes
collected that go to schools. But when you get into a
county in which your evaluation is limited, we start
talking about long-range proposals, you’re talking about
years ahead, and I can’t see schools looking three years
ahead. And it’s been changing every year. It is hard to
project what is going to happen in a long-range situation.
377
I went on the Board in 1956—’55. And the bond issue
recommended in 1955— as a result of a survey that was
made in 1950. So we were ten to fifteen years behind
there, and we are getting further and further and fur
ther behind here. So when you refer to long-range things,
I just can’t project down the line of what is going to hap
pen. I think the people in Scotland Neck are willing to
take their part of the responsibility and do what is
right, and I think we have proved that in this bill we are
not trying to deny anybody because of race, creed, and
color in education. We are trying to better ourselves in
that light.
* * * *
Q Are you aware generally of the contents of that
bill?
A Generally, yes, sir.
Q Let me read the preamble to the bill.
A All right, sir.
Q As it is stated here. Quote, an Act to improve and
provide public schools of higher standard for the residents
of Scotland Neck and Halifax County, to establish the
Scotland Neck City Administrative Unit, to provide for
the administration of the public schools in said adminis
trative unit, to levy a special tax for the public schools
of said administrative unit, all of which shall be subject
to the approval of the voters in a referendum or special
election, period. A t the time of the passage of this Act
were you aware that preamble stated that its purpose
was to improve the schools of Scotland Neck and Halifax
County?
A Yes, sir.
Q Can you tell me in your own words what studies
you made prior to the enactment of this bill— strike that.
Can you tell me in your own words what studies you
made prior to the introduction of this bill into the Leg
islature as to the improvements which creation of a sep
arate school district for Scotland Neck would give to the
children in Scotland Neck?
MR. JOSEY: Let me ask you is that question: what
studies he made?
MR. BOURNE: Yes, sir.
378
A Well, having been associated with the schools as
long as I have, I am well aware that the improvement
in any school comes through, first, administration; sec
ondly, through improved teacher — teachers; thirdly,
through improvement in relationships between parents
and teachers and administrative personnel within the
area; and, thirdly, I was concerned with the— the fact
that teachers and administrators had been hard to get in
this area due to the fact that all the surrounding areas
are offering supplements. For instance, a man teaching
math here, if he would go to Roanoke Rapids or to Wel
don, or to Rocky Mount, or to Tarboro or elsewhere with
in thirty miles of here and get more money than he could
in this area, and as a result we were losing teachers to
those particular areas. Secondly, you asked now, as I
understand, what studies I made?
Q (Mr. Bourne) Yes, sir.
A As to why it would be improved. I secured from
the Superintendent of Schools the budget, or I had a copy
at that time of the budget that we used for 1968 school
year, and based on the tax evaluation involved there, I
took the local funds involved and prorated those based on
the average number of daily students we had in school
this year, which I figured would be about the same
amount we would have in the City System. It was strict
ly guesswork. And came up with the figures, plus the
additional funds that the fifty cent levy would provide to
determine how much more money we would have avail
able, and outside of that, a feeling that those funds
would be sufficient, that the school would under proper
administrative guidance and with local support running
as high as it was in the procurement of teachers and
the workings of the local people toward adjusting a cur
riculum that would satisfy the students in this area, I
felt that those preliminaries were enough for me to move
on in this bill.
Q Did you make a study— did you make any study of
the interests of students of the Scotland Neck Schools, of
the educational interests of the students there to deter
mine what their interests were?
A Prior to the introduction of this bill?
379
Q Yes, sir.
A No, sir. I felt that prior to the introduction of this
bill that the interests of the people would be shown at the
poll, which I think the vote substantiates.
Q But in terms of education advantages to the chil
dren of Scotland Neck you made no study of the interest
area of the high school?
A Not of the student body as such, no, sir.
Q Did you consult with the counsellor who teaches or
did teach in the Scotland Neck School before this bill went
into effect concerning the advisability of this bill?
A No, sir.
Q Did you consult with the principal of the Scotland
Neck School?
A Yes, sir. I told him that this bill was being intro
duced.
Q Do you recall whether he rendered a professional
opinion?
A He did not.
Q Do you know—what is his name, sir?
A Edwards.
Q Do you know his first name, for the record?
A Donald Edwards.
Q Did you consult with the— any professional edu
cators concerning this bill prior to the introduction?
A Yes, sir.
Q Could you identify those persons?
A I consulted with the Superintendent of the Tryon
School. I don’t remember his name now.
Q Did you discuss with him the interest areas of
pupils in his system?
A Yes. We looked his whole school system over and
found that he was fully integrated, and studied the in
formation we had concerning his school and he verified
all of it to us, yes, sir.
Q Did you take any notes on the curriculum given
at that school?
A No, sir.
Q Did you take any notes on the areas of accredita
tion of teachers in that school? Areas of certification, ex
cuse me.
380
A No. These figures were available in the State pub
lication.
Q Did you have those in your possession and study
those prior to—
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q —prior to introduction of this bill?
A That book has been introduced as evidence.
Q Which book are you referring to, sir?
A You have the evidence here.
MR. JOSEY: Off the record.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
Q (Mr. Bourne) Is it the book you are referring to,
sir?
A That’s correct.
Q I will ask you just to read the title of it.
A Profile of Significant Factors in Education in North
Carolina, a Ranking of School Administrative Units,
dated July 1968.
Q Does that list specifically the—give the course of
ferings at Tryon’s School District?
A No, sir.
Q Did you know what course offerings were offered?
A Well, we talked to him about course offerings, but
I didn’t make any notes or anything. We were particu
larly interested in vocational— the vocational phase of his
school and asked him about those areas.
Q Was the reason for your request there that voca
tional education is often a very expensive proposition
and you wanted to find out whether a small school dis
trict could bear that expense?
A Yes, plus the fact that I wanted to know why he
didn’t have the same type of vocational programs that
we have down here, and since then I have talked to
other superintendents about the same matter.
Q What is the— what kind of vocational programs
have you had here in the past at Scotland Neck?
A Well, we have only had three vocational programs
at Scotland Neck in the past. One is vocational agricul
ture, which admittedly has been slipping for the last num
ber of years. Another is the home economics department
381
for the girls, and just recently they put—the last two
years— they put in a trades and industry program here
in Town in which I think bricklaying and basic carpen
try has been taught.
Q What sort of program was offered in Try on that
interested you?
A I’ve forgotten the name of it. But I think it’s a
form of distributive education, in which a child attends
school for half a day and then he is farmed out to the
various interests that he shows. For instance, if we have
a young man that is interested in banking, you would
keep him in school for his curricular activity for a half
a day and then send him in to a bank for a few hours of
training under the guidance and supervision of the bank
ers themselves, or any other industry that might be—
if a man wanted to be a service station man or if he
wanted to be a clerk in a store, or if he wanted to be
a secretary, or anything— that type of thing interested
me up there in how they operated it.
Q Do they have an agriculture program in Tryon?
A No, sir.
Q Is there a major staple crop which is grown in the
vicinity of Tryon, such as cotton?
A I couldn’t answer that question, sir.
Q Is there one which is grown in this area, such as
tobacco or cotton?
A Oh, yes. We grow cotton, tobacco, and peanuts in
this area.
Q Do you know how many pupils— excuse me. Strike
that. Do you know whether they have an industrial arts
program in Tryon?
A No, sir, I don’t.
Q Do you know how many pupils attend agriculture
courses here in Scotland Neck— attended last year?
A I have no idea, sir.
Q Do you know how many attended the trades and
industries courses?
A From the Scotland Neck School?
Q Yes, sir.
A Or from both schools?
Q Scotland Neck School.
382
A No, sir. I am sure it was a very small number.
Q You think there would be more in agriculture than
in trades and industry— I mean—yeah, in trades and in
dustries courses?
A From the Scotland Neck School?
Q Right.
A I expect there would be, yes, sir.
Q I think you stated, did you not, that the towns of
Weldon, Roanoke Rapids are able to offer supplements to
their teachers which the County has not been able to do
in the past, is that correct?
A That’s correct, sir.
Q Do you know how much the supplement is in Wel
don?
A No, sir.
Q On a per teacher basis?
A No, sir. I know they have a graduated supple
ment. I think it runs based on experience. I couldn’t
tell you exactly, but I think it runs anywhere from— a
beginning teacher, from $225.00 or $250.00 per year on
up to $450.00 or $500.00 per year. It depends on—
Q Is that true for Weldon or Roanoke Rapids or
both?
A That is true for Roanoke Rapids. Now, how they
work it in Weldon, I’m not familiar with that, sir.
Q So you really don’t know the amount of the sup
plement or were you fully aware of the amount of the
supplement?
A I was fully aware of what Roanoke Rapids of
fered between those figures. I know it was on a gradu
ated scale. That’s all I know.
Q You didn’t know exactly how much a teacher with
three years’ experience and a B.A. degree—
A No.
q —would be getting in teacher supplement?
A No, sir.
Q I think you stated you talked to the man in Try-
on, did you not?
A Yes, sir.
Q Aside from him did you discuss the advisability of
setting up an independent school district in Scotland
Neck with any other educational authorities?
383
A Yes, sir. I talked it over with Dr. Craig Phillips.
Q Do you recall whether he recommended or opposed
the establishment of an independent school district here?
A He’s told us that he would have to oppose us be
cause it was against the policy of the State Board of
Education and he was a servant of their board— I guess
that’s what I want to say. I also asked him if— told him
that we were there as interested citizens in public edu
cation and our primary purpose was to maintain and
keep public education going, and if he had any alterna
tives, I would appreciate him stating them before we in
troduced this bill. He said money is what you need. And
then he went so far as to say that if I could wave a magic
wand and build you a fully integrated, completely equip
ped high school, with teachers with imagination, said I
think you would change your mind. I said: is there a
possibility of that happening, in that wand being waved,
and he says no.
Q Did you discuss it with Dr. Pearce?
A No, sir.
Q Did any other citizens from Scotland Neck discuss
it with Dr. Pearce?
A I don’t know whether people have been to see Dr.
Pearce. We— now, when I was up to see Dr. Phillips, we
just spoke with Dr. Pearce. Dr. Pearce used to be coach
right here in this school of Scotland Neck. He is familiar
with all the buildings. They were right here when he
was coach. We spoke to him as a friend, that’s all.
Q You didn’t seek his professional opinion?
A No, sir.
Q Did you make any notes on your conversation with
Dr. Phillips?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know of anyone else who did make notes?
A No, sir.
Q Who was the citizens who attended the meeting
with Dr. Phillips with you?
A Mr. Shields and Mr. Josey and myself, and my
brother, the Mayor.
Q Do you recall who arranged these meeting with
Dr. Phillips?
384
A I don’t recall who it was. It was done. I imagine
Mr. Josey arranged it. Because I do remember asking
Mr. Overman if he would arrange it and he said he
would rather not do that, and I said: do you have any
objections to our talking to him, and he said: no, go
right ahead. And so that is when we contacted Dr. Phil
lips’ office— somebody in the group, probably Mr. Josey.
Q Aside from discussing it with Dr. Phillips and
. . . the name slips me. But the principal of the school
— I believe it was the principal of the school in Tryon,
or was it the superintendent?
A The superintendent.
Q What is the superintendent’s name, sir?
A I don’t know his name. I can’t think of his name.
I had to look it up when I called him.
Q Aside from discussing it with those two persons,
did you discuss it with any other educational profession
als?
A No, sir, not that I know of.
Q In determining the needs of the students in the
Scotland Neck area in adequacies or inadequacies of the
local schools, did your group employ a professional edu
cational consultant?
A No, sir.
Q Did you consider employing a consultant?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know of anyone who recommended that
you employ a consultant?
A No, sir.
Q Now I believe you did state, did you not, that you
obtained the budget for the County for the 1968-69 school
year in the school system?
A I had those budgets because I was a member of the
Board at that time, and when the final adoption— I had
about a half a dozen copies after making them up and
presented them to the County Commissioners, and when
they came back he gave us a final copy. That meant it
was whatever the County Commissioners gave us.
Q Did you— I believe— am I correct in stating that
you also computed roughly the amount of additional
funds which would be available on the basis of the fifty
cents tax?
385
A Yes, sir.
Q What was the figure that you arrived at?
A The fifty-cent supplemental tax?
Q Right.
A It will run between twenty-four and twenty-five
thousand dollars.
Q Is that— does that —
A Of course, that was based on last year’s tax evalu
ation.
Q Does that figure include— strike that. When one
determines the tax yield from a given amount of tax
evaluation for the Town of Scotland Neck, is it relevant
to determine the amount which is actually going to be
collected and as opposed to the amount which is possible
to be collected?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know what percentage of taxes is collected
in Scotland Neck— strike that. Do you know what the
— I believe that is called the cost of collection or the— no,
strike that.
Do you know what percentage taxable yield is actually
collected in Scotland Neck in every year?
A Yes, sir. The information I received prior to this,
that over ninety-six point-some percent of the taxes had
been collected within the taxable period. We figured our
budget on ninety-five percent.
Q So it would be ninety-five percent of twenty-four
or twenty-five thousand, is that right?
A No, sir. The twenty-four or twenty-five—between
twenty-four and twenty-five thousand dollars. The five
percent has already been taken out.
Q Is there also a cost of collection?
A No, sir. No cost at all to us here in the City.
Q On the basis of twenty-four or twenty-five thou
sand dollars extra and above what you have had here in
the past in the local schools?
A Yes, sir.
Q How much did you compute that to be on a per
pupil basis?
A Oh, it seemed to me that we— the figure I believe
the County expended was $39.29 in local taxes per child
386
last year. We figured that figure would at least double.
We figured it would be about $80.00. Somewhere along
there.
Q How many student were figuring having in Scot
land Neck School?
A As I told you before, I based my figures on the
average daily attendance last year, which at that time
was 974 students I believe.
Q A little under a thousand?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you anticipate getting approximately $42.00
per pupil?
A Well, whatever it figures out there. We figured it
would run approximately $80.00 in local funds, counting
what we get from the County per student, plus what the
twenty-four thousand dollars will put in there, will give
a total of approximately $80.00 per student.
Q Did your estimate of $80.00 per pupil—let’s see,
that is—you said you believed you got about $39.00 per
pupil?
A I think your book will show, this profile will show
it was $39.29. Not that one. The other book. The profile
of students. My figures were quoted strictly from the
State Department of Public Instruction, except for the
estimate I made in the expenditure, adding what we get
from the local tax evaluation.
Q I am showing you the document which is the
Plaintiff’s Exhibit # 2, the School Survey of Halifax
County, September 1968, page 36, which is for 1966-67.
There is a table ten that indicates that the amount of
local funds—
A That’s right, sir. $39.29.
Q Is that the figure that you recall?
A That is the figure that I used as a county expendi
ture, yes, sir. Per child.
Q Right. And with nine hundred we can round that
off to $40.00. Off the record.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
MR. BOURNE: The parties have stipulated that for
the purposes of figuring per pupil cost, with this witness,
the figure $39.29 found in table ten of the 1968 School
387
Survey, Plaintiff’s Exhibit # 2, will be rounded off to
forty, and the figure 979 pupils anticipated for the 1969-
70 school year, by Mr. Harrison, will be rounded off to
1,000.
Q (Mr. Bourne) Mr. Harrison, on the basis of these
rounded figures of approximately a thousand students
anticipated to be in your school system—
A Yes sir*
Q — and on the basis of the $40.00 given— the $40.00
that the State—that the County provided— strike State.
A Yes, sir.
Q How much additional money would this tax yield
per student?
A You’re referring to the local city tax?
Q Right.
A On that basis it would yield $25.00 per student
more.
Q I believe you said you anticipated getting approxi
mately $80.00 per student, including the County and the
local money?
A That’s right, sir.
Q Could you describe for me how you anticipated get
ting the additional money? I believe the 25 and 40 add
up to 65, is that not correct?
A That’s right, sir.
Q How did you get the additional money, going up to
80?
A I anticipated a hundred fifty families that would
apply for tuition in the Scotland Neck School, and used
a round figure estimate of a hundred dollars for the 150,
or a total of $15,000.00 additional money.
Q So it would be averagely contemplated that there
would be a hundred fifty students?
A Not a hundred fifty students, but a hundred fifty
families at a hundred dollars a family, and I just grabbed
that figure out of the air and it worked out in the bud
get using those figures.
Q Were the figures that you used the same ones that
the proponents of the bill had in mind when they thought
about the educational advantages and the_ amount of
money which would be available per student in the Coun
ty— I mean in the Town?
388
A Well, those figures were shown when I figured
them at that time, yes, sir.
Q When you were figuring budget costs for the Town
school system, the proposed Town school system, I believe
now you have testified that there will be approximately
forty thousand dollars in your estimate that would be
available for the Town schools which had not previously
been available?
A Supplemental taxes, that’s right, sir.
Q Either from tuition or supplemental taxes?
A That’s right, sir.
Q And did you have any idea that some of that might
be— might have to be expended in administrative costs?
A No, sir. It depended on whom the Board of Educa
tion hired as a superintendent, what his salary was as
laid out by the State of North Carolina, and how much
experience he had, and so forth, as to just whether it
would have to be involved or not into a supplement to
handle a superintendent. We didn’t anticipate any great
amount of that being involved in the administrative costs.
Q Does the State scale for superintendent salaries
vary with the size of the school district?
A It varies with the number of the school—number of
children involved in a school, yes, sir.
Q Is the—
A And the size of the district has nothing to do with.
It is the number of children involved and it is the exper
ience that this man has, whether he is coming into this
position new or whether he’s had previous experience as a
superintendent, or— and those factors. What his degree
is, whether he has his masters, whether he has a princi
pal’s certificate, whether he has a doctorate— all of those
things are— enter into it. What the state sets as salary
increments and increases each year.
Q Do you know how much money the State will pay a
superintendent with no previous experience as superin
tendent in North Carolina schools or any other schools
for the school system the size of Scotland Neck?
A No, sir, I do not.
Q Do you know how much pay a principle of a school
with, say, a M.A. degree and— a masters degree and five
389
years of experience at teaching, as a principal, how much
money he would be paid?
A No, sir, I do not. Those figures are set up on a
pay schedule by the State. I am sure they would be
available to you, but I do not have them.
Q Do you know why— do you have any idea whether
it might be necessary to supplement the superintendent’s
pay?
A No, sir, I didn’t until a decision was made one way
or another on whom to hire and not to hire, and I don’t
know anything about this man’s qualifications or any
thing.
Q Were inquiries made about prospective superinten
dents before the bill was passed?
A No, sir, not that I know of, except we asked— a
figure was forthcoming from the State, when we talked
to Dr. Phillips, of $22,000.00 per biennium, which has
been quoted by the newspaper as $22,000.00 a year. And
apparently that was a figure—he said that was a figure
for the superintendent, and office personnel. That I as
sumed was a bare minimum for a beginning superin
tendent, or $11,000.00 a year, you see.
Q That is what the State pays?
A That is what the State furnishes, assuming— I
don’t know how Dr. Phillips arrived at that, but that is
the figure he came in with. He said this money will be
allocated for that purpose I believe. $22,000.00 per bien
nium.
Q Per biennium. Is it correct that one of the basic
factors in determining the quality of the school system is
the quality of its administration?
A Absolutely.
Q Has that been your experience as a member of the
School Board for fourteen years?
A Partly so, yes, sir.
Q But am I correct in understanding that you—be
yond knowing that the State would apply approximately
$22,000.00 per biennium for administrative costs, you
didn’t know whether the Town would have to supplement
that in any way?
A No, sir. We couldn’t have known that until the
390
superintendent was approached, his salary discussed, his
qualifications discussed, and so forth.
Q How many principals will the State allocate to the
Scotland Neck School System; how many principals will
the State allocate to the Scotland Neck School System?
A I understand they will allocate one principal’s sal
ary.
Q Do you know whether it is anticipated that there
will be more than one principal in the local schools?
MR. JOSEY: I object. In the first place I don’t
think he has any knowledge of it. I know he doesn’t
know—he has no connection with the school board, and
I just don’t believe he knows the answer to these ques
tions. Of course, if he does I don’t mind him answering,
but I don’t believe he knows the answer to them.
MR. BOURNE: I think he’s already testified there
would be $25,000.00 based on this tax, additional funds.
I want to ask him the possible costs of running the school
system and what sort of surveys he made as to the cost
of running the school system, on the scale of the Scotland
Neck school system.
MR. JOSEY: Okay.
Q (Mr. Bourne) Would you answer the question?
A Will you repeat the question?
Q Did you anticipate there would be the necessity for
a second, or third principal for that matter?
A No, sir.
Q Is there only one principal in the Scotland Neck
School System today?
A That’s correct, sir.
Q And he is principal of the high school, elementary
and junior high school, is that correct?
A Absolutely.
Q He was last year?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is he a teaching principal or is he a principal full
time?
A A full-time principal, sir, or he was last year.
Q Do you believe it is sound administrative practice
to have a full-time principal?
A Yes, I do.
391
Q In a school of approximately a thousand students?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was a request made for the twenty-two— or twen
ty-two thousand dollar figure to meet administrative costs
before the Legislature?
A No, sir. It automatically comes with the creation
of the city— under the statutes I believe it automatically
comes with the creation of the city administration.
Q Was any request made for other funds, such as
money from the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board to sup
plement monies to come to the school board?
A The only other request was the Alcoholic Beverage
Control Act set up for Halifax County states certain
percentages of the money will go for enforcement, cer
tain percentages for operating expense of the Alcoholic
Beverage Control unit, a certain amount will go to the
cities, municipalities, and after all of these cuts are taken,
the remainder is divided among the school units of Hali
fax County. The bill as it was written says between the
Weldon, Halifax, and Roanoke Rapids School Units. We
asked our Legislator to amend our bill to read: the bal
ance to be proportionately divided among the several units
in Halifax County, that’s all.
Q Was that done?
A I assume it was. I don’t know whether it ever
reached the conclusion or not, sir.
Q How much money was involved—would have been
involved on the basis of last year’s figures for the school
children in Scotland Neck?
A You mean out of the ABC Fund?
Q Right.
A Last year’s figures?
Q Yes.
A County-wide?
Q Well, did you figure how much? I don’t know how
that is figured. Does that follow the pupil—
A Still on a per pupil basis, yes, sir.
Q Do you know how much money was available to
the County last year?
A I did know, yes, sir, and I’ve forgotten. It seems
to me that figure was around forty-two or fifty-two
thousand dollars.
392
Q Forty-two or fifty-two thousand dollars?
A Something like that. The budget will reflect that,
from last year, sir.
Q Is that for the County or for the County and
Roanoke Rapids and Weldon?
A That was the County’s proportionate part.
Q I see. And assuming that they get the same amount
of money, is it correct that the Town would get a per
centage of that which would be in the same ratio as the
student body?
A The Town has already gotten theirs before the
money gets in the act.
Q The Town school system?
A The Town school system would be allocated on the
percentage of the total amount of children set up, yes,
sir. Not only does that apply to A.B.C. Funds, it applies
to the several other things, such as intangible taxes, and
other various items that are listed in the budget.
Q I believe you testified earlier that you anticipated
in addition to the extra funds accruing because of the
fifty-cent tax increase, extra funds in the amount of ap
proximately $15,000.00 to come from tuition paying stu
dents from outside of Scotland Neck, is that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q And I believe you stated that the basis for that
determination was that there would be approximately a
hundred fifty families desiring that their children attend
schools in Scotland Neck?
A That’s right, sir.
Q And that they would be willing to pay, or that they
would pay approximately a hundred dollars per family?
A That, is the basis I went on.
Q For the education of their children here in Scot
land Neck. How did you arrive at the figure of a hun
dred fifty families?
A Well, I, of course, have been in this work so long
I knew approximately how many children were being
transported bus-wise, and I knew how many were coming
in by their own vehicular method, and I just grabbed a
figure out of the air.
393
Q Is that approximately commensurate with the num
ber of families who have sent children to the Scotland
Neck School?
A I think it’s approximately the number of children
who have attended the schools in Scotland Neck.
Q The number of children who have attended high
school or elementary school or junior high school?
A That’s correct.
Q How did you arrive at the one hundred dollar fig
ure?
A I picked it out of the air and figured it at a hun
dred dollars a family and put $15,000.00 in the budget,
and then that is when they said: well, now, can you
operate a school on these figures. I said, well, this figure
here is a guess. I think it’s accurate, approximately where
the families are, but what the Board of Education will
set up as a figure for tuition I can only guess, but as
suming that they do, on this basis, it would mean $15,-
000.00. So we used that in the figures to arrive at a
total figure before we ever went to Tryon.
Q How many children were represented by your esti
mate of approximately a hundred fifty families; how
many children were you talking about?
A I didn’t get into the children end of the thing, the
number of children, because I wasn’t figuring number of
children. I was just figuring families. And some of
those families will probably have four or five children.
Some of them may have one.
Q Do you know how many children attended Scotland
Neck School—who will attend Scotland Neck School re
side within the Town of Scotland Neck?
A All of them that are in the city limits will attend.
Q Do you know how much—what that figure is ap
proximately?
A No, sir. The only thing I know is the letter you
were showing me, in which Mr. Overman calculated those
figures. I knew nothing about how he arrived at them
or where he got them. All of those figures have been
calculated since I had anything to do with it.
Q Well, what I’m— strike that. Of these 150 families
you said in your knowledge had children— to your knowl
edge had children in the Scotland Neck School and who
394
might desire to send their children to the school next
year, how many of those children would have been white
and how many Negro?
A I couldn’t answer that, sir, because our proposal
throughout the entire program has been that anybody
who cared to pay the tuition, regardless of the race,
creed, or color, could attend the school.
Q Am I correct in saying that you understand that
there were approximately 200— I think you said— Negro
pupils in the Scotland Neck School last year?
A That’s correct.
Q And am I correct in saying that there were a lit
tle under a thousand total pupils in the Scotland Neck
School last year— is that correct?
A In average daily attendance, yes, sir.
Q And those are the figure you have already testified
to today—
A Yes, sir.
Q — as your estimates?
A Yes, sir.
Q Am I correct in stating that you have those fig
ures approximately in your mind at the time you pro
posed this bill? I think you testified to that, is that cor
rect?
A Yes, sir. That’s correct.
Q Have you not also stated that your estimate of a
hundred fifty families in Scotland Neck, families— strike
that. Am I not correct in saying that your estimate
there are a hundred fifty families who live outside of
Scotland Neck who have sent their children to school in
Scotland Neck was based on figures for last year?
A My estimate was a hundred fifty families, yes.
Q Concerning the tuition policy of the— that you felt
the school district here might adopt and the one you fig
ured into your calculations as to how much money would
be available and how many students would be involved
in the total school system here— strike that. In 1968 or
early 1969, before this bill was introduced into the Leg
islature, creating the school district, did you propose that
the Town of Scotland Neck join with other surrounding
areas in creating a school district in 1968 or early 1969?
A No, sir, because that had been killed.
395
Q Was there any consideration to—given to includ
ing the Brawley School within the boundaries of your
school district?
A No, sir, there was not.
Q Any particular reason why it was not?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you state the reason, please?
A The reason would be if we included Brawley School
within the city limits of Scotland Neck, we would be de
nying all of the people in the outside area of the school to
attend without tuition. We would have the building und
er our control and the control of the City and would not
be allowed under the law to accept those children, or und
er the plan of the Board of Education to accept those
children unless they paid tuition. And I think you will
find that about ninety percent of the children in Brawley
School are brought in by bus. We had nothing to gain
but more buildings, more facilities, and denying the rest
of the children the place to attend in the County. As it is
they have now a choice of a school with tuition or a
school without tuition. The County has the facilities.
They would have been left without those facilities and
the facilities would not have been needed by us— all of
them anyway.
Q How many pupils are there at Brawley School?
A I couldn’t tell you, sir, since they have moved them
around like they have. I think it’s something less than
a thousand maybe.
Q Around a thousand maybe, approximately a thou
sand?
A I couldn’t tell you. I said something less than a
thousand. /
Q Are those pupils— are any of those pupils—have
any of those pupils been white to your knowledge in the
last five years?
A I think I have stated that. No, sir.
Q I asked you about last year.
A Last year was your question?
Q I said in the last five years.
A No, sir.
* * * *
396
Q Do you know the number and the location of these
mobile units?
A I believe there are six or seven at the junior high
school and one on the main campus, or there might be
nine. I’m not sure. I haven’t counted them.
Q If you anticipated one thousand students in the
Scotland Neck School System for next year when you
made your determination as to the cost of educating
children for the school district, the independent school
district of Scotland Neck, did you figure that you would
pi obably have available the facilities, both permanent and
mobile, at the Scotland Neck Junior High School?
A No, sir. I figured that that would be a possibility,
that we would have to buy some mobile classrooms to
place on our permanent campus.
Q Do you know what a mobile classroom costs?
A Yes, sir.
Q How much do they cost?
A About five thousand dollars apiece.
Q How many did you anticipate purchasing?
A I didn’t anticipate any quantity whatsoever. You
will be receiving capital outlay funds from which this
money could be expended from the County, and if you
had to have them you could purchase them from that.
It’s in the County budget. Our proportionate part will be
coming back from capital outlay funds.
Q But you didn’t know how many would be necessary,
is that correct?
A No, sir, I couldn’t answer that because the only
thing I could do is estimate the figures, and I have made
that statement several times, that there would be a pos
sibility of having to use mobile classrooms or purchase
mobile classrooms if all the students that I thought were
coming appeared and did come.
Q If the children— approximately a hundred children
of a hundred fifty families did not come to Scotland Neck
Schools on a tuition basis next year, under present ar
rangements where would they go to school?
A I have no idea, sir. The County has facilities for
them. If the County can get them to go to those facili
ties, fine. You know, you can lead a horse to water, but
you can’t make him drink.
397
Q What would be the difficulties of getting those chil
dren to go to those facilities?
A I have no idea, sir. It would be individual fam i
lies and their feelings concerning this matter, plus the
fact that I think most of them would feel that they would
want to attend the school they have been attending all of
their lives. Most of the people involved here graduated
from this school. They want their children to graduate.
They have been treated right over the years. They know
the people in Scotland Neck, are interested in education,
and I couldn’t tell you what the people think and why.
Q Are the County schools outside of Scotland Neck,
but in the southern part of the County, presently crowd
ed, overcrowded, or under-utilized?
A I think you will find that the rural schools that
were built are becoming under-crowded. At one time
they were crowded. For a number of years we added
from the original plans. We set forth expenditure bond
money. I think you will find in this County we added
more classrooms than the original plans called for at
these secondary schools around. In the last year or so,
or couple of years, due to mechanization in this area,
due to shifting population, and things of that nature, I
think you will possibly find there are some extra rooms
in the secondary schools surrounding the area now.
Q What about the elementary schools?
A That is what I’m referring to now.
Q The elementary schools?
A Yes sir.
Q And, therefore, if the approximate 300 pupils who
live outside of Scotland Neck, but may attend Scotland
Neck Schools next year, were to go to County schools,
there would be plenty of rooms for them. Is that true?
A I would say there would, yes.
Q Is that true? Would that be true even if the Coun
ty no longer had available the Scotland Neck Junior
High School?
A I would—
Q And its mobile units?
A I would say so.
Q Even though to your knowledge—
398
A Now, let me qualify that statement to this degree:
that is in this particular area I’m referring to now. What
happens in the upper end of the County, where the in
dustrial growth and the population changes are, is al
together different from what they are here. I am not
speaking for that when you ask me about County schools.
Now, I’m referring to the surrounding area, within a
twenty-mile radius of Scotland Neck.
Q Is Brawley High School— is Brawley School— strike
that, ‘high school’— undercrowded, overcrowded, or at
capacity?
A I couldn’t answer that, sir. Now, I tell you, until
I left the Board, up until one year before I left the
Board of Education, we made a trip to every school in
this County once a year, inspected the percentage— all the
members of the Board of Education. The last year we
didn’t. We were just so tied up with things, with H.E.W.,
and you people, that we never could find the time to get
around. And so I left the Board in December, and I
don’t know if they made another trip around to these
schools or not, or just what the conditions are as far as
being crowded or overcrowded, I can’t tell you.
Q Do all of the seventh and eighth grade pupils who
live outside the County— did all of those pupils who
live outside of Scotland Neck— scratch all of that. Did
all of the seventh and eighth grade pupils who live out
side of Scotland Neck previously attend Brawley High
School prior to last year?
A No, sir, because we had some in our school under
freedom of choice.
Q Were most of those white or most of those Ne
groes?
A You mean predominantly in those two classes?
Q Yes.
A I would say predominantly white, but some Ne
groes.
Q Until last year, until this past year when the sev
enth and eighth grades were moved?
A That’s correct, sir.
Q When you established the figure of approximately
$40,000.00 as extra money which would be available to
your school system here as a result of the creation of
399
the new school system, did you have any definite ideas as
to how this money would be spent?
A No, sir. I think that should be left to the profes
sionals who are qualified to recommend a program and
to the discretion of the school board who will supervise
the work.
Q Can you tell me what the major areas of inade
quacies were which led you to— strike that. Would you
think that some of this money might go into capital out
lay for expansion, or would you have thought that then?
A Well, I cautioned everyone where these figures
were concerned that since this was the first year, that I
didn’t know how the money would go, that the people
were voting this money and putting it here to be used
for a good purpose; I hoped that they would use it that
way, and that if it was—it was my recommendation
that if we found that if we did not have to use all of
these funds, that a capital reserve account be established
into which these funds could go for capital outlay at a
later date to improve the facilities we have.
Q Did you consider spending this money on special
personnel salaries, such as vocational education?
A I haven’t anticipated spending it any way, but I
feel that if a superintendent in which the board has
great confidence should come up and recommend a special
fund for such and the money was available to meet the
needs of the people, I think the funds should be used that
way.
Q So you did not anticipate spending any for voca
tional agriculture or music arts programs?
A I haven’t anticipated spending the money any way.
I have anticipated making recommendations on how it
should be spent to the school board.
Q Do you know how many courses were taught in the
Scotland Neck High School last year?
A It seems like I remember a figure of 30. 39, 36, or
something along that line.
Q Am I correct in understanding you have already
testified that the recommended minimum for a school sys
tem which has eighteen required number of credits, eith
er the recommended number of courses that that school
would carry is 52?
400
A I think I said 54.
Q Am I correct in saying 54?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you anticipate expanding the curriculum of
the Scotland Neck High School?
A I never knew anything about that recommendation
until I heard it the other day. It has never been passed
on to a layman such as me until the other day.
Q Was that when you heard Mr. Overman testify?
A Yes, sir.
Q In deposition in this case?
A Yes, sir.
Q Well, now, the purpose of the bill, I believe you
have stated you knew, was to improve the education of
students in Scotland Neck?
A That’s correct, sir.
Q And I believe you testified that you went to Tryon
to determine whether it was feasible to maintain a public
school system, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q A public school system of this size, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Am I also correct in understanding that, although
you knew there would be extra funds available to the
local schools as a result of the implementation of—
strike ‘implementation’— as a result of the creation of the
independent school system in Scotland Neck, you had no
definite plans or ideas as to how that money should be
spent?
A Read that question back, or state that question
again, please.
Q Am I also correct in understanding that, although
you knew there would be extra money available to the
school system, to the schools here, as a result of the cre
ation of the separate school district for the Town of Scot
land Neck, you did not have any plans or definite pro
posal as to how that extra money should be spent to im
prove the schools of Scotland Neck?
A I did not make any such proposal, no, sir. I think
that is the job of the professional.
401
Q Did any of the other proponents of the bill make
such recommendations or proposals before the bill was
passed?
A Oh, no, sir. No, sir. None of that was—we stated,
I stated rather, at the P.T.A. meeting when this thing
was held some things— some areas in which it could be
improved, such as getting hard-to-get— using these funds
to supplement for hard-to-get teachers, maybe some extra
library equipment, maybe extra art materials, and other
things, but so far as a definite proposal was concerned,
I didn’t try to make any definite proposal because, since
I am a layman, that should come from professional peo
ple and I feel that they are better qualified to recommend
than I am.
Q I believe you testified earlier that the County had
a reserve of approximately $827,000.00 for capital out
lay?
A I didn’t testify that. I said they had some funds
available.
Q Well, is that correct?
A They had some money that—when I left the Board,
but they expended some since then on some projects, but
right now I understand the figure is approximately $827,-
000.00.
Q When you left the Board approximately how much
was it?
A It was in excess of that. It seems like to me it
was eight hundred seventy or ninety-some thousand dol
lars. Something like that.
Q Is it correct that you anticipated that the Scotland
Neck School Board would have a prorated share of that
money available to it for capital expansion?
A I did, sir.
Q To your knowledge has the Scotland Neck School
System been able to obtain its prorated share of that
money?
A To my knowledge the Scotland Neck School System
hasn’t made any attempt at the present time to get it.
I feel that, since this is bond money voted on, paid in
by the citizens and being paid for by all the citizens of
Scotland Neck, I think we are entitled to it. It might be
a legal point that will have to be argued later, but as of
402
the present time I don’t think—the Scotland Neck City-
Unit to my knowledge has not made an effort to secure
these funds yet.
Q Have you heard of any difficulties which persons in
volved with the Scotland Neck School District have antici
pated might arise in getting hold of this money?
MR. JOSEY: I object. Now you’re really getting out
in the realm of conjection. You’ve got that from— off
the record.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
A I have heard that. I have seen no official communi
cation from the district attorney, but I have heard that
he has ruled that these funds would not be available for
the Scotland Neck City Administrative Unit.
Q (Mr. Bourne) Is that the Attorney General or the
District Attorney?
A Attorney General of the State of North Carolina.
However, the Attorney General turned around and re
funded from the Roanoke Rapids Unit the prorata part
of the bond funds to the County of Halifax when that
John Armstrong Chaloner was taken in, which amounted
to several thousand— fifty-some-odd thousand dollars, so
you can take the $890,000.00 and add three hundred fifty
more thousand dollars to it. Now it’s a legal question. I
am not a lawyer. But I would certainly fight it before
I’d let it go.
Q Were you aware, before the bill was passed, that
there might be some diffculty in this, some sort of diffi
culty in this area?
A No, I had none. I based my judgment on what had
happened in the Roanoke Rapids and the John Arm
strong Chaloner situation.
Q Was that prorata share of the eight hundred thou
sand dollars in money that you had reference to when
you told persons here in the County that you might have
to buy mobile units, but the money was available?
A No, sir, because the State will not approve buying
mobile units out of State bond funds. They have to go
in permanent structure. What I referred to was the capi
tal outlay program of the County or County funds, of
which this unit will receive its prorata share.
403
Q Are you aware of whether a tuition program has
been adopted by the Town of Scotland Neck for out-of-
Scotland-Neck students?
A I don’t think the Town of Scotland Neck has any
thing to do with it.
Q Well, the school system, the Scotland Neck City
Administrative Unit.
A Am I aware of one having been adopted?
Q Yes, sir. A policy.
A What it is I do not know. I never have seen a
letter or any information on what the policy is on that.
I don’t know. But I am sure there has not been one.
It seems to be standard procedure throughout the State
of North Carolina— the law specifically states you can
operate with tuition or without. The General Statutes
provide for that.
Q Sir, am I correct in understanding then that you
don’t have any idea, for instance, as to how much they
are going to charge the students?
A No, sir. Nothing official on that.
Q Well, unofficially?
A No, sir.
Q Do you have any idea what pupils are going to be
able to exercise the opportunity to come to the school on
a tuition basis only, those who made freedom of choice
last year, or any students?
A I do not know anything about the students, assign
ment of students. Those that have requested Scotland
Neck I know nothing about their race. I know nothing
about who plans to come. I know nothing about what
it’s going to cost them or any of the financial arrange
ments on it. It’s been out of my hands since it left the
Legislature.
Q As to eleventh and twelfth grade students who
previously attended Scotland Neck High School and who
would want to return, but who live outside of the Town,
are those persons going to have to pay tuition, is it your
understanding?
MR. JOSEY: Object. He said he didn’t know any
thing about the tuition plan.
A I don’t know, sir.
404
Q Now, Mr. Harrison, I interviewed you at your home
Sunday, July 13th?
A Yes, sir.
Q About four in the afternoon?
A Un-hunh (affirmative answer).
Q And didn’t I interivew you from four until around
6:30, except for a short period in which you had to go
out on business?
A That’s right, sir.
Q A t that time did you not tell me that it was your
understanding at that time that eleventh and twelfth
grade students who lived outside of the County, but who
had previously attended Scotland Neck—lived outside of
the Town but who had previously attended Scotland Neck
would be permitted to attend Scotland Neck free?
A No, sir. You misunderstood me, Mr. Bourne. The
only thing that I told you: it was my understanding that
those children who lived in the city limits and had at
tended Brawley and requested to return to Brawley to
graduate, rather than being assigned against their will,
would be allowed to do it under the freedom of choice
plan that was going on, and to my knowledge tuition—
you might have misunderstood me, but tuition wasn’t
involved in that, sir.
Q For the children who had previously attended
Brawley?
A That’s right. Now, let me make this very clear.
The children that are in the eleventh and twelfth grade in
the Scotland Neck white school are in there of their own
free will and choice. Now the colored children— I don’t
think any of those will want to return. But it was the
assignment of the other children who have normally at
tended Brawley School that wanted to go back, that we
were going to allow to go back to Brawley School, that’s
correct, but nothing involving tuition.
Q Let me ask you just one or two other questions,
Mr. Harrison.
A Yes, sir.
Q During your fourteen years as a member of the
County School Board did the County administer a sum
mer school program?
405
A Sometimes they did.
Q The County Unit, County School Board?
A Well, the County School Board didn’t. Well, we
administered summer programs, but it was only started
as E.S.E.A. and federal money was available for such
programs. We never did prior to that.
Q Was County money expended in that effort?
A No, sir.
* * * *
Q How many white children are there in Scotland
Neck School System?
A Approximately twenty-three or twenty-four hun
dred.
Q Do you know how many Negro children there were
last year?
A Approximately eighty-three or eighty-four hundred.
Q And of those 2300 aproximately 700, according to
those figures, will be attending— approximately 700 white
children will be attending schools in Scotland Neck next
year, is that correct?
A If they are allowed to come. That is the figures,
yes, sir.
Q And 2300 less 700 would give you what figure?
A Oh, that would give you about 1600.
Q Whereas, the number of Negro pupils that will be
taken out of the Scotland Neck System, according to these
figures is what?
A 92.
MR. BOURNE: Off the record.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
Q Taken out of the County School System and put in
Scotland Neck Schools?
A No, that isn’t—that says one to ten who requested
a school located in Halifax County, 92. They are being
taken out of the City, 92 of them.
MR. BOURNE: Correct, but— off the record.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
Q (Mr. Bourne) You do know that it will be 700
white children approximately who will be attending the
schools here next year if plans go according—
406
A Have requested assignment, yes.
Q Will the taking of those children, white children,
out of the Halifax County School System affect the de
segregation of Halifax County Schools?
MR. JOSEY: I object to that. Desegregation is some
thing—he doesn’t know even what it means, and I don’t
either, and I don’t think you folks know, and he can’t
possible know what you mean by desegregation because
I don’t think the lawyers know, and I don’t know that
he can possibly know, and I object to it.
MR. BOURNE: (To Witness) You can answer the
question.
MR. JOSEY: Answer the question.
A I don’t see how it can affect the desegregation of
Halifax County because these children have never been
to any other schools except this one.
Q Will it reduce the percentage of white children in
the Halifax County System?
MR. JOSEY: I object.
A The latest figure Mr. Overman gave me, there
would be a two percent difference— two or three percent
— I’ve forgotten. I think he said it goes to eighty percent,
from 78.6.
MR. BOURNE: Your witness.
EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEY:
Q Mr. Harrison, as far as you understand the law to
be, will the creation of the Scotland Neck School System
completely comply with all the laws that you understand
to be in effect at the present time concerning abolition of
the dual school system within Scotland Neck?
A Yes, sir.
Q Will all children, black, white, or whatever color,
race or creed, go to the same one school that— the one
school available?
A Yes, sir.
Q As far as you know will all students be assigned on
a— within the Scotland Neck School System on a complete
ly non-discriminatory basis to classrooms and be treated
equally, completely without regard to race, creed, or
color?
407
A Yes, sir.
Q Does—has, basically, the dual system of operating
of schools been in existence in Halifax County for some
number of years?
A Yes, sir.
Q Under the program that you understand which
Mr. Bourne has asked you about, that the Halifax County
Schools is going to operate in 1969-70 and thereafter,
do you have an opinion as to whether or not the Scot
land Neck School will operate in compliance with the
law as far as— strike all that. Under the present plans
or under any— under the plan that you now under
stand the Halifax County Schools to be operating, will
the Negro students of Scotland Neck be afforded an op
portunity to go to a completely integrated school, where
as, under the County plans at least they would not,
that is, Scotland Neck Negroes that live within the
Scotland Neck School District will in fact go to an inte
grated school, the vast majority of them, whereas, under
the present plans and the plans in the past the Negro
students that were in the County system would not in
fact go to a— the majority of them—go to an integrated
school— isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct. There would be some areas in
which the schools would remain completely black regard
less of what type of instruction were they afforded.
Q Now I believe you— aren’t you of the opinion that
the average Negro family is larger, has more children
per family, and more students per family generally than
the white families in Halifax County?
A Yes, sir.
Q If that assumption is true and your opinion is
correct, would that not make the tuition fee, whatever it
is, on a per student basis more— cheaper per Negro stu
dent that it would per white student that may want to
come into the Scotland Neck School Unit from the Hali
fax County School Unit?
A Based on the size of families, I would say: yes. I
don’t know how they are arriving at the tuition, but on
a family basis it would be, if you figured it out per head,
cheaper.
408
Q Now I believe Mr. Bourne asked you about the
fact did you know that there were only 36 courses taught
in Scotland Neck high school during 1968-69, and I be
lieve you said that was probably correct as far as you
know. Didn’t he show you something in one of those
books and you said you had no reason to disagree with
it?
A I had no reason to disagree with Mr. Overman’s
figures.
Q And, also, I believe he showed you some figures that
54 was the minimum requirement or minimum suggested
for a good high school and you agreed that as far as you
knew that you didn’t know any reason that that was
not right— in one of these books— isn’t that correct?
A I agreed that those figures and the way they were
determined, I knew nothing about it until just recently,
but apparently it has come out. I believe, if I remember
correctly, the Governor’s Commission recommended it.
Q Doesn’t that recommendation to you, Mr. Harrison,
mean that this school that has been operated by the Hali
fax County School— that the Scotland Neck School that
has been operated by the Halifax County Administrative
Unit for 33 years has not been operated on an academic
level which is a desirable level for operating of a school?
A If those figures are any criteria or any standard to
go by, I would have to answer: yes.
Q Now I believe he asked you about your education
and you said you grew up in Scotland Neck community
and that you went to Scotland Neck School. I will ask
you if in fact, from the time you went to the first grade
until the time you graduated from high school, you did
not in fact attend the Scotland Neck School which was a
city unit at that time all the way through?
A It was a city unit when I completed— entered and
completed my education in Scotland Neck.
Q And don’t you know that the Scotland Neck School
operated as a city unit from way back at the turn of
the century until approximately 1963?
A That is correct, sir.
Q Nov/, I believe you—he also asked you about a
letter from the Justice Department, dated July 27, 1968,
409
and I will ask you if in fact this— if you don’t know
that this school survey—I believe that is Government’s
Exhibit 2— that the request from the Halifax County
School Board was made in— at the June meeting of
1968, some month and a half or two months prior to
the July 27 letter from the Department of Justice?
A The survey was requested before any correspond
ence by the Justice Department, yes, sir.
Q And I will ask you if in fact it was not—strike
that. Don’t you know that prior to that July 27, 1968,
letter that Mr. Francis Kennedy, possibly early in July
or possibly the latter part of June, in fact made an in
vestigation which was the first indication that the Jus
tice Department was in any way involved in the Halifax
County Schools or had any complaint, or that the Hali
fax County—that that was the first indication from the
Justice Department in any way involving this matter?
A I don’t know whether Mr. Kennedy made this in
vestigation or not. I know that there was a representa
tive from the Justice Department sent in and it was re
ported to me by Mr. Overman. He went through our
files and told him he would let him hear from him at a
later time.
Q And I will ask you if in fact you don’t know that
this request for this survey was made before any com
munication from the Justice Department during that
year or any other previous year?
A Yes, sir. It was requested of the State Depart
ment before that time.
Q Right, sir. So that this school survey, as far as
your recollection is concerned, and the request that it be
made, the request coming from the Halifax County Board
of Education to the State School Planning Division was
in no way prompted by or connected with the Justice
Department’s threat which later come in sometime in
August 1968, isn’t that correct?
A That’s right.
Q Now, to clarify that word ‘threat’, I’d—
MR. KENNEDY: Thank you.
Q (Mr. Josey) I’d like, Mr. Harrison— isn’t it your
understanding that what took place during the summer,
the latter part of the summer 1968, was that apparent
410
ly the Justice Department received a complaint from
certain parents in Halifax County, stating that they were
— that the Halifax County Board was in violation of the
Civil Rights Act of 1964 and as a result of that com
plaint Mr. Kennedy made an investigation, and then in
July 27, 1968, Mr. Kennedy, or his office, notified the
Board that the investigation revealed that Halifax Coun
ty School Administrative Unit was in violation of the
1964 Civil Rights Act, and that we had to do something
— that the Halifax County Administrative Unit had to do
something about it before the—immediately?
A All of this was told to me by the Superintendent,
and I assume it is correct. Whether Mr. Kennedy was
involved in this investigation I cannot say.
Q But, basically, that was—that was the chronologi
cal sequence of events as you recall them as a member of
the Board, that occurred in the summer of 1968?
A That’s correct, sir.
Q Now, I believe Mr. Bourne asked you about wheth
er or not you had— that you considered the panel of sur
veys committee which prepared the School Survey of
Halifax County in 1968, Government’s Exhibit 2, wheth
er or not you considered them to be competent profes
sional personnel, and I believe you answered that as far
as you knew they were competent, is that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q I believe that they did indicate the approximate
amount of funds that would be required to implement the
plan that they proposed, isn’t that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did they in any way indicate or suggest methods
by which the School Board of Halifax County was going
to raise these funds or as far as you know consider any
of the practical aspects of obtaining these funds in this
survey?
A I believe it is in that survey, sir, or whether it was
given to us in another form I don’t remember, but I do
remember that a recommended bond issue of four million
dollars was proposed county-wide, which would mean that
Roanoke Rapids, Weldon, and all of the Halifax County
Unit would have to vote on it. Secondly, it would call
411
for a county-wide increase in current expense, taxes; if
I’m not mistaken it was either fifty-three or fifty-six
cents increase in taxes. And even at that, with the State
bond funds now available to go into this project, those
bond funds we’ve been talking about laying up there, we
would end up $600,000.00 short, which would have to be
accumulated in capital reserve account for two years. I
believe that that was their recommended proposal of pay
ing this.
Q Now, have you lived in this area, in this County,
and in fact in this community, basically all your life ex
cept the time you spent in World War II?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you been involved as a citizen and as a school
board member in proposing and campaigning for bond
issues?
A Yes, sir.
Q In the past?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you been— are you generally familiar with
the political ramifications of this County concerning the
passage of various fund raising tax and bond measures?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is the feasibility— strike that. I believe you
testified that you had resigned and were no longer on the
Halifax County School Board at the time that this School
Survey, Government’s Exhibit 2, was actually presented
to the School Board by Dr. Jet Pearce, or were you?
A I don’t remember, Mr. Josey, whether I was still
on there or not. It was right at the tail-end of 1968.
I was either going off or I—he may have presented it
the day I resigned. I just don’t remember.
Q In fact, you were there at that School Board meet
ing at the time he presented this survey, isn’t that cor
rect?
A That’s correct, sir.
Q And do you recall the discussion of the members of
the Halifax County School Board, who represented vari
ous areas of this County, do you recall that generally?
A I recall the general discussion on it, yes, sir.
Q I will ask you if it wasn’t the unanimous unof
ficial opinion of that School Board that it would be im-
412
possible to pass a school bond issue for this County and
raise the necessary funds to implement the plan as set
forth by the— in the School Survey, Government’s Ex
hibit 2?
A That was the general feeling of all of them for
several reasons, one reason being that they had just com
pleted a bond issue, something like a half a million dol
lars, five hundred thousand, or half a million— I’ve for
gotten which it was, in the— in all areas of Halifax
County with the exception of the Scotland Neck trading
area for the purpose of building a new hospital in the
upper end of the County. At that time this tax increase
was estimated to run nineteen to thirty cents, I think,
increase in taxes. Another reason was that Roanoke
Rapids has had maximum supplemental tax of fifty cents,
and another reason, that Weldon had its supplemental
tax, I believe, of twenty cents. And we felt in order to
carry this bond issue in this election it would be neces
sary that these two units be in support of it. They did
not support this survey. We asked them to come in for a
county-wide survey and they did not see fit to do that.
And it was the general opinion the Board, unofficial
opinion, that we just couldn’t get a four million dollar
bond issue through on a fifty cents tax increase. Now
if it were done on just the basis of the County area
alone, those figures would have to go up considerably, and
in fact four million dollars is all the bonds, taxable bonds,
can issue for school buildings now because we are still
paying off a portion of the three million dollars, so that
four million dollars is the bonded limit that we could
go at that time.
Q Now Mr. Bourne asked you some questions con
cerning A.B.C. school funds. There is a fund available
under the A.B.C. profits law of Halifax County. And I
will ask you, assuming that the Legislature did in fact
change the bill, the A.B.C. profits bill for Halifax County,
and in fact included the school administration unit of
Scotland Neck along with the other three units, would
that in any way decrease or diminish the per pupil
amount of A.B.C. profits that will be distributed to the
Halifax County Unit for 1969-70 over the previous year?
413
A No. The funds are prorated on a per capita stu
dent basis.
Q So, therefore, the Halifax County—the student
that lives and goes to school in Halifax County Unit for
1969-70 on a per pupil basis will receive the same amount
they received last year and the year before, percentage
wise?
A Correct, sir.
Q Now he also asked you about teachers supplements
and what you know about Roanoke Rapids and Weldon
teachers supplements, and I will ask you if it isn’t true
that—that your primary concern with the teachers sup
plements, and the effect of it, has been heretofore it
made it a little— made it more difficult to get teachers
for Halifax County Unit because Halifax County had no
supplement, and you were in essence competing with
supplements given by Virginia Beach, by Tarboro, by
Rocky Mount, by Roanoke Rapids, by Weldon, and so
forth—hasn’t that been the primary effect and concern
of you as a member of the Board of Halifax County
since you have been on the Board?
A Yes, it has. We have had teachers to renew con
tracts and under the law they are allowed to resign
thirty days prior to school starting. They will renew
the contracts with us and once the supplemental situation
comes by, they will cancel out, even at the last day some
times, leaving us within thirty days of school. I think
last year they had as many as thirty teachers short thir
ty days before school starts.
Q And isn’t that also—that is, the ability to pay
teachers supplements— one of the things that will—-that
should tend to improve the academic position of the new
Scotland Neck School Administrative Unit over its posi
tion with the County Unit?
A I’m sure it will put us in a more competitive and
better position, yes, sir.
Q Wouldn’t you say that the—that the teacher is the
primary— that the ability of the teacher is the most im
portant thing, and a student’s gaining knowledge, over
any and all other factors in education?
A I agree with that, sir.
414
Q Nobody that teaches a student anything except a
teacher, is it?
A No, sir.
Q Now I believe he also asked you about whether or
not you considered the— and you took any notes or had
any notes, and remember anything about— the course of
ferings at Tryon, and I believe you said you didn’t have
any notes and you don’t recall the exact courses that
were taught up there, isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct, sir.
Q But it is true, is it not, that our visit up there with
the others you mentioned to Tryon, that in addition to
the— that probably the first concern was to determine
whether the finances that you felt would be available for
Scotland Neck could finance a school that academically
would be superior to what we have had in the past; that
was probably the primary concern and first priority item
that was taken up when you went up with the others
to Tryon, isn’t that correct?
A That was the question asked me: is this enough
money to operate our school, and I said the only thing
I know to do is let’s go riding, and that is what we did.
Q And, of course, the second thing— strike that. And
to determine whether or not the Tryon School was in
fact of academic equal or superior to what Scotland Neck
had had in the past under the County System, those of
us who went up there were shown, and requested, and
inspected a copy of the curriculum, shown to us by Mr.
Dussenbery, the superintendent, isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct, sir.
Q And isn’t it not your general opinion and recollec
tion now, although you cannot recall the details of that
curriculum, that that curriculum was superior in gen
eral by far over the curriculum that existed in the Scot
land Neck School, and which had existed in the Scotland
Neck School for many years?
A I recall that. Now, Mr. Josey, he gave us a copy of
his curriculum and there were— a copy and I brought it
back and gave it to the old principal here, just for com
parison, and they had a great number of items on there
that we didn’t have in our school at that time.
415
Q And you took this copy of this curriculum of the
Tryon School, and you say you talked to and discussed it
with, and left it with, Mr. Edwards, is that correct?
A I believe I left it with him. I know I talked to
him about it because I went down each one and asked
him what he taught and what he didn’t teach and check
ed them off to see—I remember that now, yes, sir.
Q And did you also not compare the numerous cate
gories of academic analysis of the Tryon School with
the Halifax County Unit as set forth in the Profile, the
book entitled “Profile of Significant Factors in Educa
tion in North Carolina, a Ranking of School Administra
tive Units,” dated July 1968, and prepared by the Sta
tistical services of the Department of Public Instruction
in Raleigh?
A Yes, sir, I compared them very thoroughly all the
way through before we went up there and after we went
up there, and all during the Legislature.
Q And based on that comparison, based on the visit
and the conversation with Mr. Dussenberry, and with
the principal of the school up there, and the assistant
principal of the school, and based upon your and the
others’ observation of the facilities and observation of
the records of curriculum, did you not come to the con
clusion that Tryon School, operating with some— slightly
over eight hundred students, the Tryon School Adminis
trative Unit, and with local funds of somewhat less than
what you project Scotland Neck Administrative Unit to
have, that the Tryon School Administrative Unit was in
fact superior academically and educationally to any
school that Halifax County Unit had in operation at
that time, and particularly was superior to the Scotland
Neck School as operated in the years—for the past num
ber of years; did you not come to that conclusion?
A Yes, sir, I would have to say that. He had a well-
administered, well-organized school.
Q And I’ll ask you if in fact it wasn’t after that
very thorough analysis of this thing and comparison, and
only then was it determined by Mr. Gregory— was it
concluded by Mr. Gregory that he would in fact introduce
a bill to establish the Scotland Neck School Administra
tive Unit?
416
A That’s correct, sir.
Q Now I believe Mr. Bourne also asked you if you
consulted with— I believe he asked you if you consulted
with the students and I believe you answered that ques
tion that you did not, is that correct?
A That’s correct, sir.
Q As for as you know did this group, Dr. Pearce
and the survey committee on the school survey, Plain
tiff’s Exhibit 2, did they go around and consult with
the students about what they wanted?
A Not to my knowledge, sir.
Q But I believe you did testify that you consulted
with the school principal, Mr. Edwards?
A Yes, sir.
Q And I believe, did you not, on your visit to the
Tryon School, not only—you did, of course, talk to Mr.
Dussenberry, the superintendent?
A Yes, sir.
Q At length?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you not, you and the others, also go to a sep
arate site, I believe, of the junior high, and discuss at
length the situation with the school principal there?
A Yes, sir, we did. We didn’t discuss it at length,
our problem; we discussed at length the operation there.
We discussed at length the situation there.
Q Up there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Right. Mr. Harrison, isn’t it true that for the
past ten to thirteen years that you have made every ef
fort on that, as a member of the Halifax County School
Board, on many different occasions to have the school fa
cilities improved in the Scotland Neck area without suc
cess, to have the academic standards of the students in
the Scotland Neck— in the Town of Scotland Neck and
the Scotland Neck community raised through every type
of— in every manner in which you possibly could without
regard to race, creed, or color— isn’t that true?
A That is true, sir.
MR. JOSEY: I believe that’s all.
* * * *
417
EXAMINATION BY MR. CREW:
Q Mr. Harrison, there are many white families in
Halifax County just as poor or poorer than the Negro
families, is it not true?
A I agree with you, sir.
Q And I believe that Halifax County has the second
or third highest ratio of Negro population to white popu
lation of any County within the one hundred counties, is
that not correct?
A I think you are correct, sir.
MR. CREW: That’s all.
EXAMINATION BY MR. JOSEY:
Q The administrative problem, Mr. Harrison, of the
schools in this County and the difficulties and the unique
ness of the administrative problems is not merely related
to the ratio of Negro to white; it also has to do with size
and living patterns and population, community centers,
such as Eastman, that sort of thing—isn’t that correct?
A That’s correct. In fact, Dr. J. L. Pearce made the
statement in my presence one time: this was the hardest
county to figure out a solution to in all one hundred
counties in the State of North Carolina. I think he will
remember saying that, as many times as he has been
down here.
Q From that statement and from any other state
ments he made at the time you didn’t take that to mean
that people here in Halifax County were more prejudiced,
that is, whites against blacks and blacks against whites,
than any other county, did you?^
A Oh, no, sir. No, sir, we did not.
Q And in fact haven’t you heard him indicate that
— strike that. Isn’t it true that the people in Halifax
County, throughout the County, and particularly in the
southeastern section of the County, have had less prob
lems today of race relations than most of the surround
ing counties?
MR. BOURNE: I object. He doesn’t know all the
racial relations in all the surrounding counties.
MR. JOSEY: He doesn’t know half the stuff you
asked him but I’m going to ask him and let him answer.
418
If you can, what is your opinion concerning that, Mr.
Harrison?
A I would say the race relations, particularly in the
southeastern part of Halifax County, have been unusu
ally good. We have tried in every thing that has hap
pened down here, if there were problems, racial problems,
to get to the core of them quick and to try to work out a
solution satisfactory to all. So, generally speaking, I
think I can speak for my own area— I can’t tell you
what is going on in other areas— I think, generally speak
ing, in our own area we have had excellent race relation
ship.
MR. JOSEY: That’s all the questions I have.
EXAMINATION BY MR. CREW:
Q One further question. During the time that you
were on the School Board I ask you if in your opinion
the School Board has not at all times since the time that
you were on it until you resigned acted as expeditiously
as possible to comply with the law with respect to segre
gation in keeping with local conditions and still seeking
quality education?
A I would have to answer that: yes, sir. They have
been most conscientious in trying to do that.
Q And in the three million dollar bond issue we had
in 1957 or 1958 I ask you if the County at that time,
the County School Unit, did not spend seventy-five or
eighty percent of their proceeds which they got for im
provement of Negro schools in the County?
A If I remember correctly, out of one million nine
hundred eighty thousand dollars, approximately a quart
er of a million dollars went into white structures and a
hundred fifteen thousand dollars of that was approxi
mately in this junior high school.
Q I ask you if in your opinion that did not have a
lot to do with the good race relations that we have had
and still have in this County?
MR. BOURNE: Object.
A I personally would think so.
MR. CREW: ‘That’s all.
(FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT)
* *