Pettway v. American Cast Iron Pipe Company Appellants' Appendix Vol II (Pages 400-812)
Public Court Documents
January 1, 1973
Cite this item
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Pettway v. American Cast Iron Pipe Company Appellants' Appendix Vol II (Pages 400-812), 1973. c4c74926-c19a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/acbdb0a7-5598-446f-9545-30389bc37ab9/pettway-v-american-cast-iron-pipe-company-appellants-appendix-vol-ii-pages-400-812. Accessed May 02, 2025.
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In the
Intfrii Staten (Ennrt nf Appeals
For the Fifth Circuit
No. 73-1163
R ush Pettway; et al.,
Appellants,
-vs.-
A merican Cast Iron Pipe Company, A Corporation,
Appellee.
ON A P P E A L FRO M T H E U N IT E D ST A T E S D ISTR IC T COURT FO R T H E
N O R T H E R N D ISTR ICT OF A LA BA M A , S O U T H E R N DIVISION
APPELLANTS’ APPENDIX
Vol. II—Pages 400a-8l2a
O scar W. A dams, Jr.
A dam s, B aker & d em on
1630 Fourth Avenue North
Birm ingham , A labam a
R obert Belton
237 W est T rade Street
Charlotte, North Carolina
Jack Greenberg
W illiam L . R obinson
M orris J. Baller
Barry L. Goldstein
10 Columbus Circle
Suite 2030
New York, New York
Attorneys for Appellants
Complaint . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ........... la
Motion of American Cast Iron Pipe Company,
Filed March 14, 1969 ............................. 6a
Order, Filed May 19, 1969 ........................ 9a
Amended Complaint, Filed June 17, 1969 ........... 11a
List of Names of Some Class Members,
Filed June 18, 1969 ........................ .. . 13a
Motion to Restrain Defendant From
Vacating Offices, etc..
Filed July 22, 1969 ............................. 20a
Answer Filed August 1, 1969 ...................... 25a
Opinion, Re: Segregated Boards,
Filed January 21, 1970 .......................... 29a
Decree, Filed, January 21", 1970 ................. 39a
Plan of Compliance,
Filed February 2, 1970 . ........................ 41a
Plaintiffs' Objections and Exceptions
, to Defendant's Plan,
Filed February 25, 1970 ....................... 63a
Order and Opinion Approving Defendant's
Plan, Filed March 20, 1970 ...................... 67a
Order of Pre-Trial Hearing,
Filed July 26, 1971 . ............................. 72a
Motion to Amend Complaint,
Filed September 23, 1971 75a
Order Allowing, Amendment to Complaint,
Filed September 23, 1971 78a
Findings of Fact and Conclusion of Law,
Filed November 21, 1972 79a
J u d g m e n t ........................................... 102a
Notice of A p p e a l ................................... 103a
Transcript of Hearing, Oct. 20, 1969 104a
IN D EX
P a g e
Page
Transcript of Hearing Commencing
October 11, 1971 & Concluding on
October 28, 1971, Pages 1-944 ................. 182a
Exhibits Introduced at Trial
PX 1 - Average Test Scores by Department
and Race ............................................. 1127a
PX 2 - Number of Employees with High School
Education Department, Seniority and Race ......... 1130a
PX 3 - Number of High School Graduates
By Department and Race As Of
August 12, 1971 . . . . . . . . . . . .............. 1146a
PX 4 - Whites in High Paying Positions
(Over $4.00 per hour) without High
School Education By Departments . . . . ........... 1147a
PX 5 - Average Wage by Department ..................1150a
PX 6 - Total Number of Employees By
Race Within Each Pay Group As Of
August 15, 1971 .................... .. ............. 1151a
PX 7 - Racial Composition of Jobs By
Department With W a g e ................ ............1152a
PX 8 - Average Wage and Difference in
Average Wage of Blacks and Whites
By Department Over a Six-Year Period
All By Number of Years Employed
Coverage Period 1965 - 70 ....................... 1180a
PX 9 - Deposition of F. Coupland and
Exhibits Attached Thereto ........... . ........... 1200a
PX 10 - Deposition of S.P. Phelps ................. 13 55a
PX 18a- Plaintiffs' Second Interrogatories
to Defendant A.C.I.P.Co. .......................... 1415a
PX 18b- Answer of Defendant A.C.I.P. Co.
to Plaintiffs Second Interrogatories ............. 1427a
PX 18c- Supplemental Answers by Defendant
A.C.I.P. Co.......................................... 1457a
PX 19a- Plaintiffs' Third Interrogatories
to Defendant A.C.I.P. Co............................ 1516a
PX 19b- Answer of A.C.I.P. Co. to Third
Interrogatories 1524a
P a g e
PX 20 - Letter to Mr. Adams, dated
August 17, 1971 ................................ 1535a
PX 24 - Lists of Signatures, Committee for
Equal Job Opportunity............................ 1537a
PX 25 - Letter to Mr. Adams, dated
August 27, 1971 ................................ 1548a
PX 26 - Number of Employees with High
School Education, Department,
Seniority and Race . ............................ 1551a
PX 31 - Cause to Sue Letter from EEOC
dated March 4, 1969 ............................ 1565a
PX 32 - EEOC Decision, February 3, 1966 1569a
PX 37 - Plaintiffs' Analysis of DX 8 1573a
PX 38 - DX-3 Re-evaluation....................... 1575a
PX 39 - Plaintiffs Analysis of DX 2 1577a
Defendant A.C.I. P. Co.'s Exhibits:
DX 1-b Line of Progession C h a r t s ................. 1580a
DX 2 Racial Composition of Jobs By
Department with W a g e .......... .. ............. 1594a
DX 5 Wage Employees by Department ............. 1640a
DX 7 Summary of Analysis of Promotion
& Demotions 7-5-65 thru 10-1-71 ............. 1650a
DX 8 Analysis of Total Gross Earnings
for 1965 1653a
DX 13 Election Report, April 2, 1971 1665a
DX 15 Job Rate Structures, Feb. 17, 1968 ........ 1671a
DX 16 Summary of Plantwide Job Bidding,
1/1/71 to 10/1/71 .............................. 1673 a
DX 28 Employees by Department, Race,
Payrate ........................................ 1703 a
Page
DX 29 Letter to F. Coupland from Dept.
of Army and Attachments..................... 1728a
Clerk's Letter ................................. 1738a
Docket Entries . ............................... 1739a
VOLUME I3 pages la to 399a
VOLUME 11, pages 400a to 812a
VOLUME III, pages 813a to 1126a
VOLUME IV, pages 1127a to 1456a
VOLUME •V, pages 1457a to 1745a
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MR. FORMANj Then there is no problem.
EXAMINATION CONTINUCD BY MR. ADAMS j
Q Henley, I believe you have stated previously
that you tried to get a better job. What happened
to those requests for those jobs that you named?
A Well, the jobs were filled. Some way or
other I didn't get notified about the job when
they were filled,
Q in other words you requested these —
name them again, will you?
A Well, tho one that I mentioned about the
side Floor Crane, Monorail Crane Operating and
Casting Machine. Those jobs were placed — they
placed people on those jobs and I didn't get notice
that I would be considered for one of them.
Q That was before 1971?
A Right, that was before 1971.
Q Was that before the bidding procedure was
put into effect? As I recall the bidding procedure
started, in January of this year and I am saying
tnese requests were made before the bid procedure
took place?
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A That's right, made before the bid procedure
took place and during that time they placed three
white boys on the job that I was requesting and
they continued to do that up until 19?1. When
they put the new bid system in that throwed me out
of the range. They had the jobs filled then by
white boys.
Q Did they have more or less seniority than
you?
A Any white man that gets a job in the Monocast
has less seniority than I have. The older white
men they inherited good jobs. As a matter of fact
they have foremen and assistant foremen walking
around together and they have a lead man and an
assistant lead man walking around together and
all of the assistants are white and they have no'
black assistants. If they have an assistant fore
man he is white and if they have an assistant lead
man he is white.
All right, there is one particular job that
I talked to Mr. Coupland about, a fellow by the name
of Glenn Gardner, this is one of the jobs that I
talked to Mr. Coupland about — and a fellow by
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the name of Glenn Gardner got one of these jobs
that I was asking about and Glenn Gardner went in
the army I think in ’ 69 and he was running a casting
machine. Dan was running a side floor crane and
when Glenn come back out of the army Dan quit and
mind you, Dan had this job v/hen Glenn went into the
army but v/hen Glenn come out of the army Dan quit
so they put Glenn on this ‘ide floor crane job and
1 talked to Mr. Coupland about it and he said they
would have to follow government' regulations on people
returning from the service. I said yeah, that’s
right, but you place men on the job — you should
try to find a job that the man was on and place
them on the job he was on when he returns from
the service or one that is equivalent. You don't
take another man's job and give it to them but when
Dan quit, he didn't put the job up for bid but
they put Glenn on it and I didn't know he was a
lead man — he just made a lead man and he is one
of those lead men that is going to France. But
anyway Gionn Gardner is on the side floor crane
and that is the job I asked for.
Q Was this in 1971? Are you referring to
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1971 or sometime before that?
A In 1969 is when Glonn went in the service.
Q When did he come back?
A He came back in I970 I think it was.
Q When did he get the job?
A He got the job in 1973.. I .think the records
will show that.
Q And ho is now made a lead man today?
A As far as Mr. Coupland. Mr. Coupland said
that the lead men and foremen were going to France
and black men were on these lead men jobs so I
presume that he is a lead man. He is working in
that capacity anyway.
Q Are you saying the job he got was a job
you had tried to get?
A One of the jobs I tried to get, yes, sir.'
Q And when he came back from the army he
got it over you?
A yes, sir.
Q But it was not the same as the job he had
when he left?
A No, sir. As a matter of fact one of the
white boys told me, he said, it is wrong. He said,
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I would, like to have that job myself.
q All right, let me ask you another question.
I would like for you to tell the Court — I believe
you said you had a meeting where you asked about how
people go about getting jobs?
Federal Court Reporting Company
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A Yes, sir.
Q When was that?
A I can’t recall that date but it was whenever
we had a safety meeting.
Q I mean what year?
A It was in 1969. tost part of 1969* Periodi
cally we have safety meetings and sometimes we talk
about everything except safety and this white
boy and I decided we would ask in this meeting
how do you go about choosing a man for a better
job or a job with higher pay and he decided he
would ask the question and I would comment on
it. So he asked the man who was presiding over
the meeting, Mr. Frank Keith, he asked him, how
do you go about — a nan go about getting a better
job. He said, well, what we do is we go in the
office and everybody’s name is in the office and
wo see what they made on the tests and we pull your
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file and, see what you made on the test and then we
consider you for a higher paying job. It was a
foreman who said that. I said, you mean you don’t
consider a man’s seniority, his length of service
any at all about moving up to a better job and he
said yos, but we have to look what he made on the
test first to see whether he is qualified.
He gave me this opinion about the way they
go about choosing a man for a higher job.
Q What year was this?
A The last part of 1969.
Q And did, he say that man had to apply for
the job or that the company, when they had a
vacancy would check his files and see if he
was qualified both test-wise and seniority-wise?
A He told them when the job come open we
check the man’s record to see what he made on
the test.
Q Did they say that they did that without any
request from the man or did the man have to make
a request?
A He didn’t say that day what they did.
Q He didn’t say either way?
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A Yes, sir.
Q Mr. Henley, in your years of service at
ACIPCO did you over have an opportunity to teach
white workers and. then they have then gone on to
better jobs?
A Yes, sir, I did. Down at Number two when
I was working down there I taught several fellows.
I taught Mr. Reed, Mr. Wilson Reed. He moved up
to a job as head Iron Foreman at Number Two. And he
makes considerable more than what I make. I
don’t know exactly the rate on it but he makes
considerably more than I do.
I had the privilege of working along with
Jerry Simpson. At this time I think he was Skimming
at the Number Two. Jerry Simpson is now a lead
man and he taken over a lead man’s position while
the other lead man is going to France this month.
And also being a member of the committee I talked
with people who had also trained people who have
worked up to the position of lead man. One of them’s
name is Vic Victor. Some of the men who had twenty
or twenty-five years of service running a hoist
in the rammer station at the time, well, they
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taught him how to run it and I understand after
several months Vic moved, up to lead man over them.
Some of the men had twenty or twenty-five years of
service. Now* just like I say, that progression was
froze to the black people and. when I was at Number
Two, out of all of the jobs that I done around there
I think there were only three of them and all of
those jobs were in practically the same pay group,
maybe a penny more or a penny less. Most any man
that made the Number Two Monocast was on a rammer
station and that was as high as a black man ever
went. He couldn't go any further. Because that
regression, it was froze at that height and no
black man could ever go any further.
Q Do you know of any black man making over
$'4.00 an hour other than Mr. Waddy?
A No, sir, I don't.
MR. ADAMS* That's all.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Borman) Mr. Henley, you said that
tne jobs were frozen. Have they ever been frozen
to your knowledge?
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A Repeat the question.
Q You said something about jobs being frozen
to black men in Rammer A Station level. I am asking
you whether they have ever been unfrozen to your
knowledge?
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black?
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Not to my knowledge.
What is the rate for Rammer A?
$3.42.
$3.42?
Yes, sir.
Do you know of Hoist Operators who are
Yes.
And what rate is that?
Ten cents more than Rammer A.
Are you familiar with the job of Stripper?
Job of Stripper?
Yes.
I have seen the operation, yes.
Blacks are on that, are they not?
Yes, sir.
And that is also a job in Glass A at $3.53?
I don’t know what the rate is. Rot much
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different hoistman.
Q I>e you know a fellow named. Mac Stewart?
A Yes.
Q What job is he on?
A He is on the Monorail Crane Operator.
Q Monorail Crane Operator? •
A Yes, sir.
Q What job class is that to your knowledge?
A I think $3.66.
Q Those fellows have moved above the rate of
the job for Rammer A, right?
A They never been in that progression.
Q They moved higher than Rammer A job, didn't
they?
A Yes, since the test. At one time he couldn’t
go up that far without taking the test.
Q Are there any casting machine operators
who are black?
A That is correct. You got some black.
Q But are there some?
A Yes, you got some.
Q Do you know how long they have been holding
the job as Casting Machine Operator?
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A No. I think the last two years they have
keen placing thorn on the casting machines.
Q You made reference to a man named Bob Gilmore,
Was he given a job over you?
A Bob Gilbert.
What is his last name?
Bob Gilbert.
How do you spell his last name?
G-I-L-B-E-R-T I guess.
What job is he on.
Ho runs a Swiping Machine up at Number Two,
dying and cleaning shed, Number Two. I know I got
the Bob right.
Q Has the Swiping Machine job been posted
since the first of the year?
A Since the first of the year?
Yes.
I suppose it have.
Have you bid on it?
No.
That is a higher rated job than the one
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you are on?
A Right,
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Q Has the hoist Rammer Hoist Operators
job been posted since the first of the year?
A Yes.
Q Have you bid on it?
A No.
Q Is that a higher rated job?
A Yes.
Q You said three white boys were put on these
jobs during a period of the tests and I take it
you were referring to the Monorail Operator Casting
Machine Operator and I want you to identify those
three people?
A On the Monorail Crane you have — his first
name is Lamar and I don’t know his last name. I
can identify them if you v/ould come out there.
You have three white operators and two black
operators.
Q On the Monorail?
A Yes.
Q And those other ones you are talking about
on there now?
A Yes, they got less seniority than I have.
Q But those are the fellows you are talking
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about? Are those the fellows presently on the
Monorail?
A Yes, the ones presently on the Monorail.
Q All right. How many times has the Hoist
Operator job been posted to your knowledge this
year?
A I don't know. Several times.
Q Several times? And it is just not true that
that job turns over just once in twenty years, is
that correct?
A That is correct but since 1971. Since 1971
they excluded the test and it come open.
Q Were you in court yesterday when I think
Davis Jordan testified it was offered to him in
I969 and he turned it down?
A I don't remember that. I don't remember'
him saying it was offered to him in 1969.
Q Has the job been offered to you?
A No.
MR. FORMAN: That's all.
RE-DIRECT EXAMTh TION
Q (By Mr. Adams) Mr. Henley, when you say the
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negroes have gotten some of those jobs he referred
to since the tests, do you mean they made a higher
score on the test and. got the job?
A That's right.
Q The job you mentioned that had been posted,
what were they? Bo you recall now?
A The one he was referring to was rammer station
job. He asked me if Rammer A was posted and I said
sure, Rammer A was posted and they had a hoist job
which has been posted. They have some of the men
run it temporarily when the hoist man is periodically
not there. And another thing, in running a hoist,
every man up there can run the hoist. Every man
up there can run the A Rammer and they require that
if the man that run the A Rammer is not there, they
require you to run that without the A Rammer's pay.
And the hoist man's job, if the hoist man is not
there they require you to run the hoistman's job
without the hoistman's pay. If you don't run it
you go home.
Q Is the hoistman's job pay some few pennies
more?
A Some few pennies more, yes, sir.
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Q la it more difficult to do that job than
the A Rammer job?
A 1 wouldn't say more difficult. It might be
a few more things different in the physical work.
Q Why is it you didn't take that particular
job and bid on it?
A They hever did offer it to me.
Q I mean has it boon up for bid?
A Yes, sir, it has been up to bid.
Q And why did you not bid on it?
A Like I say it was more physical effort and
I have already worked in that capacity. If I took
the job it would have taken me at least a year
and a half to get those few pennies that they
had to offer in that. I don't consider this a
promotion.
Q Is this because of the rate progression
schedule?
A That's right.
Q In other words you don't — do you get the
rate immediately when you go on there? ,
A No, sir, they put you on a hoist job right
now they might give me two pennies this six month
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and the next six months you get five more and it
would take you a year and a half to get that rate.
They put a new man on it and it would take him
three years to get it.
Q Is that true of other jobs you talked about?
A That's right, that is true.
Q I mean the ones that have been referred to
you by Mr, Forman that have been offered for bid?
A That is true, yes.
Q In other words are you saying that at the
rate of pay you are getting it wouldn't be of any
value to bid on the job?
A Wouldn't bo any value — it wouldn't be any
promotion to me. It would be more work.
MR. ADAMSt That's all.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Forman) When did you go on the
Rammer A job?
A In 1966;
Q Number One or Number Two?
A Pardon?
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Q What job arc you in?
A I am in Plant One.
Q When did you go to Plant One?
A In 1968 it was.
Q In I960?
A Yes, sir.
Q You became Rammer B at Number One Monocast,
right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you received an Increase in pay, is
that true?
A A few pennies, yes, sir.
Q You got it immediately when you moved on
the job, did you not?
A Get what immediately?
Q The increase in pay?
A No, sir.
Q You didn't get any Increase in pay?
A I got it but I didn't get it immediately.
Q Didn't you get $2.?2 when you moved on the
job on January 8, 1968 compared to your prior rate
of $2.62?
A You mean the job as Rammer B, no. If they
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did they didn't notify mo about it.
Q You got paid every two weeks, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you checked the rate at which you were
being paid?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what rate were you being paid?
A When 1 went down there I was paid $2.62.
Q How long were you paid $2.62?
A I guess about two months.
Q Then you were paid what?
A I moved up to Rammer B pay.
Q When did you become a Rammer A?
A In 1968.
Q May of 1968?
A Yes, sir. ,
Q And your pay was increased?
A It was increased, right.
Q And you got the Rammer A rate, when you
went on the job you got the Rammer A rate?
A Not when I went on the job, no.
Q In May, 1968?
I didn't go on it in May, 1968. It wasA
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April* 1968 I think it were. Anyway I got it
but I went off and complained about it and told
them I wasn’t going to do the job if they wasn’t
going to pay me for it and they said I had to have
— I was on Rammer A — they gave me Rammer A pay
but I wasn’t on it all along.
Q Wasn’t the job reclassified up one pay group
in January, 1970 and you received an increase in
pay for that job?
A Reclassified?
Q Moved up, upgraded from pay group six to
pay group seven in 1970?
A I don't know. I know all the rammers got
a pay raise one time. I don’t know anything about
reclassification.
MR. FORMAN* I believe that's all.'
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) Mr. Henley, when you got
that job what year was that?
A 1968
Q In 1968? Are you referring to the A Rammer
job?
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A That's right.
Q And you went from where you were to A
Rammer and. what were you making as — on the job
you went from to the A Rammer?
A I was making $2.?2 an hour.
Q Then when you went to A Rammer job what,
if anything happened?
A I went to $2.85.
Q Did you have to stay on the job anytime
before you got it?
A I stayed on the job a month and after I
stayed there a month I went into the office and
told them if I was going to do this I wanted the
money for it. I told them I had already done
the job anyway. They said since you have already
done the job anyway we are going to give you the
pay. It wasn't until I went in and complained
about this and they had me out there running A Rammer
and wasn't giving me the money and they said since
I was already doing this they would give me the
pay.
Q Did they increase the actual pay rate of
that particular job at that time?
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A Yes» sir. They didn't increase the rate
but they give me what the job was paying.
Q The full rate?
A Yes, sir.
Q And were there any other jobs they did
likewise to?
A Not that I know of, no.
Q You just know aboeit that one?
A Yes, sir.
Q But you are saying it was the result of
your complaining that that happened?
A That's right.
MR. ADAMS* That's all.
MR. FORMANs That's all.
(Witness excused. )
BOOKER T. POWELL.
called as a witness, being duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows *
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) State your name, please,
sir.
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A My name is Booker Terry Powell.
Q Where do you live?
A 1004 06th Lane North.
Q Where are you working at the present time?
A American Cast Iron Pipe Company, Number 1
Cleaning Cast.
Q How long have you been working at American
Cast Iron Pipe Company?
A I was employed. July 10, 1954, 17 years
going on.
Q What job did you start off with when you
were employed there?
A Rolling pipe. Pipe run.
Q Did you take a test subsequently?
A Yes, I did.
Q And v/hat score did you make on the test?
A Achievement 5*
Q Is that the highest score you could make?
A That is what I was informed.
Q When did you actually make that score?
A I was working a job, cut-off saw and they
told me — the foreman told me — Cecil King said
they were getting one hundred men sent out there
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and they were giving tests and they wanted me to come
out there and that was in 19 — whenever the test
was given first. The first hundred men was sup
posed to he sent hut later I found out there were
98. I was in that group of the first sent out.
Q Do you complain you have been di 'criminated,
against at A0IPC0?
A Yes, from the time I was hired up until
Saturday, the last day I worked.
Q You don't mean the discrimination ended
there?
A Well, I hadn't been there yesterday and
today but I imagine if I had been there today it
would be the same thing.
Q Will you tell the Court precisely what
discrimination you complain of?
A Well, on the job from the time I was hired
up until now I did every job in the department.
Q What department is that?
A The Number 1 dealing Shed. I was first
hired there in 195^ and I worked about two months
rolling down pipe and they moved me to the old
shop and I v/orked on the oven about four months
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and then they moved mo to the pipe washer and
I worked there about five years and then they
moved to the hand grinder, inside diameter. This
is reaming out the inside diameter of the pipe and
now it is done by machine which I do now but then
we had to do it by hand.
Then I proceeded to work the hand grinder
and that weigh about thirty pounds but you clean
the bell of the pipe and then you have another
rock that you go in there and clean the grooves
out and. I proceeded to grind the spigot end. Now
they have automatic grinders but then we did ic by
hand.
Then I did the facing job and then I moved
to the separating job and to other jobs. Then I
wont to the enameline and I worked over there
putting on weights and painting ends and various
things and I worked on the spray gun and the cement
gun and I worked on the hoist that transported the
pipe from the shop out to the grinding stations and
I worked on the- cut-off saws and I have cut chrome
and. you had to have a special thing for that and
I had a run-in with the boss on this because I
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was cutting tho pipe one particular day and
the line called for one length and he told me
to cut another length and I did what he said and
so the man that picked them up and so forth he
asked me what the length was and I told him it
was sixteen feet, what the boss said but the line
up called for sixteen feet and ten inches and he
told me not to cut another one until he went to
see the boss and they had their few words and the
boss finally camo over and told me to cut them
sixteen feet and ten inches. That is one of the
occasions on tho chrome pipe. And one I had cut
sixteen feet and they had to remake them beca.use
they were a special order and they couldn't use
them.
Then proceeded to — I did weigh pipe at-
the scale, the way you weigh them now and all in
all I did. everything down there but the lead man's
job and they got one job that never have been any
negroes on but: whites and it is scale man which is
different from Number 1 and Number 2 scale man.
Scale f.lan Number 1, all he does is pick up the
weight from the men on the scales and carry them
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down there and put them on the adding machine and
Number 2 and Number 3> the man on the scales has
got to record it all and weigh the pipe and so forth
and so on#
Those are the only jobs, and lead man and
■ foreman, on those three jobs.
Q Have you ever asked for any of those jobs?
A Yes, sir, the reason why I had — I asked
for a steady job because the many jobs I was on,
I went to the superintendent and talked with the
foreman first, Cecil King, and then I went to the
superintendent which was Mr. George Harrison and
1 explained it to him that this procedure was
rough on a man, he come to work and. they have been
days I did ten different jobs in one day, in a nine
or eight hour shift and this — it worked on you'
physical as well as your mental capacity. When you
change from one job or* change from one situation to
another all the time, you can go outside and work
in the cold and then you come inside and work in
the heat and this will work on your health. So I
went to him and asked him about — that I needed,
a steady job, one job I had to work and he told me
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that a man that could do all the jobs was more
valuable to the company. Well, I understood this,
but why not give me one that I could work on then
like the grinder which is the job I have now and
he said well, he was going to think about that and
during the process of thinking about it I asked
him did he have anything such as utility man.
This is the capacity I was playing because if
anybody was off the grinder the boss would come
to mo and says you've got to go to the grinder or
if somebody was off separating, they would come
to me and say I had to go separate and if some
body was off putting on weights, 1 would have to
go over and do that. It is hard on an individual
because they keep you steady going and before you
can do one thing and get through with it completely
there is another job you've got to go to and he
told me that he didn't have anything in the utility
man but yet I was doing all of these jobs and I was
still getting the pay of a hot grinder which was
$2.2lf at the time and they had jobs that paid more
but I didn't get them.
Q Have you ever asked to be a lead man?
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A I had talked it over with my foreman and
I never got an answer.
Q Who is that?
A Mr. King, Cecil King. That was right
after this test that v/as given. He told me I
made a five and I could go as high as the Presi
dent with the company hut I hadn’t gotten out
of that department yet. And while I am on this
I talked to Mr. Teddy Gilmer, the General Foreman
down there at Number 1, and he told me that I had.
got — gone as high as I possibly could go in
Number 1 Monocast Cleaning Shed but the reason this
came up was he was offering me a job in the Machine
Shop. The Fire Hydrant Department. And I was on
the grinder and making $3•36 an hour. He told me
that this was — he was also giving me a chance
to go to the Machine Shop and he said you can learn
a skill and the job — the top pay on that job is
only $3*^9 at the t'rae and I v/as making $3*36 hut
in order to move to the Machine Shop I had to go
back to $2.78, start at $2.78 which meant a 580
an hour cut in pay. Well, a single man couldn't
afford anything of this nature so I told him no,
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I couldn't do this. Possibly in six years I could
move up to $3• ̂ 9 which is only 300 more than I was
making at the present time. I told him no, I
couldn't accept anything like that with no
insurance that I would get that. If I could go
from $3.36 and go into it it would seem more to
my liking than going back to $2.78 and starting
all over. That is just like a man coming off
the street.
Q Were you offered any other jobs?
A This is the only one.
Q The only job you "/ore offered?
A Yes.
Q And —
A Mo more than they give me — told me they
would put me on this grinding operation.
Q What are you doing now?
A This is what I am doing now. They have a
grinding operation in Number 3 and Number 1 and
Number 3 they got a class i;hat is the same paying
$3.63 an hour and an individual in Number 3 only
grinds the inside diameter of the pipe and he is
only concerned, about cleaning it. The grinding
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operation I run which consists of testing the
pipe* washing the pipe and grinding the pipe
plus you've got to keep an eye for the men load
ing the pipe on the table and make sure the pipe
is moved in front of you. If the pipes are not
moved in front of you and you hit the conveyer
button the pipe will stack up, there ain't no
question about that and if the men don't have
the pipe loaded behind you correctly then when
you get ready to hit the conveyer you get all
crossed up and you will break two or three of
them and whether you've got a job here or whether
you are in between — you've got a job here grind
ing three pipes at one time and you've got three
sets of motors coming in from that end and three
going out from this end and you've got three pipe
here and you've got to get five hundred pounds of
pressure and if one pipe leaks the pressure will
drop and you want to get to five hundred. 0. K.,
if you can't see it, sometimes it would be on the
other side and a condition at the end or the gasket
end of the pipe which is on the other end of the
pipe, you've got to determine where it is. This
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sometimes means you have got to stop and take
one pipe at a time in order to determine it.
Well, there are sometimes you get them that
will blow up on you and you've got to determine
what caused it, whether you got too much air or
too much end pressure was applied to the pipe.
Q Is that the same operation that was there
before you got the job or that tie men worked?
A The same operation. I was the first black
placed on this operation. When it was first put in
they placed white but the negroes were doing this
operation by hand, manual, and when it became a
machine, automation, they placed white men on this.
Now, this job replaced six men because it took seven
men to operate this job. They had four men grinding
the inside diameter and they had two men testing
the pipe and had one man washing the pipe and I
worked all seven of these jobs that this one machine
has replaced. And now it only requires one man to
run the operation.
Q But you have several things you have to
watch out for?
A Yes, you've got to look out for the pipe
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being loaded, on first when I convey them plus
the time when they are grinding you make sure
they are grinded sufficient that the inspector
on the other side will pass it and make sure
that they get this five hundred pound minimum
pressure. If you don't they tell us that the
Inspection Department won't pass this because
there is a chart which records these pressures.
And when they sell the pipe and someone finds a
defective pipe they can always come back to the
chart and they can show them the chart and if all
the pipe shows five hundred pound pressure then
it can't bo that it happened in our operation.
The problem was in the shipping or in the handling
rather than in the making of the pipe.
But during this process you have these men
behind me and they are constantly working. You've
got a fellow on the B grinder grinding the spigot
at the end of the pipe and you've got a fellow
who is grinding the bell end and one that faces
the pipe. These are called hot grinders. They
are paid eight cents more than the men in the
cool that separates them. Now these jobs consist
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of cleaning the pipe for me to work on. Nov;,
sometimes they can run into this had pipe and
it takes them longer and. I’ve got to compensate
when one goes hack to make sure it is a place
two pipe and. I will probably have to stop my
operation and. wait on the third pipe. Well, now,
there are only three of them back there and Number
1, the spigot end. and the bell end. and these are
jobs that are dusty and nasty and hot and requires
a lot of physical work to go into it. But they say
they are hot grinders and they only pay eight cents
more which is I think around $3*01. And then they
have to load these pipes, have to clean them and
load them and if they don’t clean them the inspector
marks them out for the men to load. And nine times
out of ten if they are not cleaned the boss man will
get after you.
Q And you are getting the rate on your job now?
A Yes, sir, I am getting the rate on the job
$3*53* This is what they pay on the job.
Q How long were you on the job before you got
the rate?
A Well, I was placed on the job I imagine
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about two years after the test and I started on
the north side and I got raises of six, five, four,
three and one cent and it taken me roughly about
three years or better to receive — to get from the
rate I was on up until the grinders rate. At the
time it was only $2.85 but every year they give
a four per cent general shop raise and this is
what caused, it to come up but it taken anywhere
from three to four years.
Q Do you believe you are entitled to a better
job?
A Yes, I know that men have had — did less
in the department and have gotten better jobs. Some
have come in with less time and ~orked on just one
job and have been transferred to maintenance or to
the Electrical Department or the Kachine Shop.
Q You are referring to white people?
A Yes, sir, only whites, whites only.
Q Do you have any special ability that you
would be entitled to use in any other job?
A Well, I graduated from Parker High School
in 1952 and I attended Tuskegee Institute for a
year and a half or a little better and I v/as
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majoring in Electrical Engineering and I considered
myself pretty good at mathematics and I helped
people in their income tax and various things.
As far as those jobs at ACIPGO, the ones
I have been around and really are familiar with,
it doesn't require too much mental .capacity. Nov;,
they stress this mental capacity but the jobs I
work, if you could think a little and observe what
you are doing, that is the job. Now, you've got to
have that physical — this is required, you've got
to be physically able. As far as mentally able,
none of those jobs in the Cleaning Shed require
mentality. You can take the average fourth or fifth
grader and if you keep them in there three or four
weeks and show them those different buttons, they
can run the job. As long as you can observe what
is going on.
MR. ADAMSs That's all.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Forman) How long has your present
job been a push-button operation?
A Now, they remodeled the shop in — remodeled
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the south side first and I would, roughly say about
ton years.
Q Then the operation you described, that
required, seven or eight men to clean the pipe
at this point and test it was over ton years ago?
A Somewhere in that range..
Q Then, Mr. Powell., since 1965 have you not
been on the rate for the job?
A Yes, I been working — I -worked the job
what happened they put me on the job and. I
worked it awhile and had me train a young white
male and they put me right back out there after
I learned him how to do the job, they put me right
back out there doing the same thing as utility and
eventually moved him and I believe later he quit
or they fired him or something, I really don’t know
what happened. Then they had a c o-back in labor
and. I was put on a spray gun.
Q When was that?
A 'The paint sprayer where you paint.
Q When was that?
A I don't remember exactly the year it was
when they had the cut-back and we did. it several
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times. We didn't run but one operation on our
shift and. a full operation on the other shifts.
This is classified as B shift. And whenever the
work force goes down they cut hack to half an
operation and a full operation on the other and
what I have always done in the past, they always
cut me back to a half operation. In other words
they run one side — probably run the south side
days and the north side tomorrow whichever the
case may be.
Q Do you recall when you were last on the
paint job?
A It has been about three years ago. Three
or four years ago or approximately. I couldn't
give you the exact date. They moved this lead
man down there up on the job —
Q And who is that?
A Mr. R. G. Allen. He was the lead man at
the time.
Q Let me ask you this questions You are a
grinder station operation at Number 1?
A Yes, sir.
Q You are on the job rate, are you not, $3.53
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an hour?
A Yea, I am.
Q And you have been on that rate ever since
that rate went on that job in the early part of
1971?
A Yes, sir, when the raise was given. I
was getting the rate before then.
Q How long have you been getting the rate
for the job. That is what I asked you?
A I got it about three years. Been getting
it three or four years, something like that.
Q Do you recall the rate for the job in 1968?
A No, I don’t believe so.
Q Or 1967 or '66 or '6 5?
A $2,811.
Q $2.8if- when?
A $2.84- in 1965 I know.
MR. FORMANs No further questions.
MR. ADAMS: No further questions.
(V/itness excused.)
THE COURT: Next witness.
MR. JAMES BA5KERVITJ.E.
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called as a witness, "being duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows j
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) State your name.
A James Baskerville.
Q Mr. Baskerville, give us your address and
where you are employed, please, sir?
A IO36 - 85th Street North and I work for
American Cast Iron Pipe Company.
Q How long have you "been so employed?
A 19 years.
Q What department are you in at the present
time?
A Foundry Core Room.
Q Mr. Baskerville, I think you have testified
previously in one of the hearings in this case, is
that correct?
A Fight.
Q Are you a member of the Equal Job Opportunity
Committee?
A Yes, sir.
Q How long have you been a member?
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A Ever since we got started in 1965» March
1st, 1965*
Q Do you hold any position with reference to
the committee?
A Treasurer of the committee.
Q What was the purpose of the committee's
organization?
A Our purpose was to get organized and get
together to file charges for discrimination at
AGIPCO. We done this because I was serving on
the Auxiliary Board and we didn't have any voice
in the policy making of American Cast Iron Pipe
Company. The Board was the Auxiliary Board and
the other was the Board of Operatives and any
recommendation we had to have we had to go through
the Board of Operatives and so we feel like we '
were not being fairly represented.
Q Did you also have any complaint about the
job classifications?
A Yes, wo did.
Q What complaint did you have?
A We had a number of complaints about job
classifications throughout the plant at that time.
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Q What complaints were they?
A Some complaints were in the pay and the
jobs such as core making and mold finishing and
some other jobs that we had.
Q Did you file any complaint with the EEOC?
A Yes, we filed a number of complaints on
core making and finishing and filed a lot of
charges.
Q Tell us, Mr. Baskerville, what was your
complaint about the discrimination in the core
making and the department you were in?
A I did talk to roy foreman about this core
making job in the foundry there, the present job
1 am doing today. I asked him about the job and
the pay. .What happened, see, the core maker moved
up to foreman, assistant foreman at that time so
I asked for the job and asked to be given title
to the job and he asked me to go and take the
test. And I told him I was already doing the job,
why should I have to go take the test, I have know
ledge of the job.
Q What job was that?
Core making, frame core making.
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Q All right, you were already doing the job
and they asked you to take the test to see whether
you could get it?
A Yes, sir, that is what he told me.
Q How did you happen to be doing the job when
you were actually being paid for something else?
A Well, what happened, the reason I asked for
the job, this core maker he was moved up to assistant
foreman. He was a shift leader at that time over this
particular part, this unit.
Q Was he white or black?
A White and he moved up and I asked for the
job, to get the title of the job and he told me
I would have to go take the test in order to get
the job.
Q What I am asking you, Mr. Baskerville, is
how did you happen to be doing the job and being
paid for something else when you are supposed to
be doing the job you are getting paid for? Could
you explain to the Court how that happened?
A Well, I was doing the job all the time.
They asked me — this is what I had been doing for
fifteen or sixteen years, making cores under this
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core maker and his rate was $305 an hour and mine
was $2.78.
Q What was your job classification?
A At that time it was core maker helper.
Q You were doing work of a core maker although
you were helping him?
A Yes, sir, right.
Q And you knew how to do the work?
A Right.
Q Have you taken the test?
A I did go down and take it with the 98.
Q You did?
A The foreman came to me and told me to go
down that they v/ere going to have the test and asked
me to go down with this bunch. He got the call to
send one man out of each department, unit, to go'
down and take the test. That was to set up a norm.
After we got down there this manager explained to
us why we v/ere down there. He said we had to sot
some kind of standard and so I was with that norm.
He said it won’t hurt you if you go. So I went on.
Q Did you take the test after that?
A No, sir, I didn't.
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Q That is the only time you took it?
A Yes.
Q Did they tell you anything about what you
made?
A I did go to him three weeks later and
asked him what did I make on the test and he told
me I made just enough to stay right where I'm at.
Q So you don't know exactly what your figure
was?
A No* I don't.
Q But you wore able to do the work?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have y been to school?
A I finished high school.
Q What high school was that?
A Parker High.
Q Was that segregated when you finished there?
A Yes, sir.
Q Are you familiar with the school desegrega
tion cases that have been filed after you finished?
A Yes, sir.
Q Mr. Baskerville, have you ever been given
a job that you refused — offered a job that you
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refused ?
A I kept on after them every time I would
see some job come open that concerned core mak
ing* or finishing, finishing cores and I always
went to the foreman and asked him about the job
and he always referred me to the test and I kept
on asking him about the job, when the jobs would
come open so he came up there later and offered
me a job in the rammer — jolt rammer squeezer and
that was predominated by negroes who were running
those jobs and that job paid seven or eight cents
more than what I was making at that time. So I
didn’t accept that job. There wasn't no upgrading
to the job.
Q Bid it require more physical effort?
A Yes, sir, a lot of physical effort ramming
that mold.
Q More than what you were already doing?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the amount of difference in pay was
what?
A I believe he said around seven cents more
an hour. He said do you want to make more money
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and 1 said yes, sir and he told me, you can make
eight cents more an hour if you will go over on
this rammer and accept this job and I told him
that negroes over there been there longer than
I have, offer it to them over there.
Q In other words they had more seniority over
there than you did?
A Yes, sir.
Q That was the same department you were in?
A No, sir, in the foundry unit, It comes
under the foundry.
Q Gomes under the foundry but you were in
a different unit?
A I am in the core room and this is in the
F. Loop.
Q What is the difference in pay in the
helper at the time you were talking about and
the core maker?
A The core maker at that time was making
$3*75 an hour.
Q And how much v/ere you making?
A $2.78.
Q You were making 1.7 8?
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A Right.
Q Do you know what — did you know what the
score you had to make on the test to get that job?
A He said it was a craft job. That is what
they referred to me as core maker was a craft job.
Q Mr. Baskerville, I think you have been on
the Auxiliary Board?
A Right.
Q Were you present at a meeting, Mr. Baskerville,
where the President of the company stated that
seventy-five per cent of the negroes would be
eliminated?
A I was there that morning. He called a call
meeting with the Auxiliary Board and he came up
and had all the management with him and — most
of them were with him. And they were already
there when we got there and he went over a lot
of things that he laid off to us, things — this
was after we had filed this law suit in 1966 and
I believe I am right that he came up and told us
a number of things that they were going to do, they
were going to cut off this and cut off that and
all the activities and I can't recall all the things
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that he said but he also said that — to the Board,
y'all are going to cause seventy-five per cent of
the negroes eliminated because of what y'all are
doing out there.
■Q Speaking to the Auxiliary Board?
A He was talking to the Auxiliary Board, yes,
sir.
Q Do you know what he meant by that state-
ment or did he tell you anything about why it was?
A No, because when he made the statement that
seventy-five per cent of the negroes — y'all are
going to cause seventy-five per cent of the negroes
to be e"iminated because of the activities wo had
filed in the charges and trying to get something
done about this discrimination of the company.
And he also pointed out that they were the men
who run this company and all of them were sitting
around the table and we were sitting right there
with them and I don't recall of them. I could
name some of them.
Q Name some of them.
A Mr. Daniel, Mr. Coupland, Mr. Furlow, Mr.
McKay I believe, Mr. Foshee and some more there
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that I don’t recall.
Q What blacks v/ero there?
A Management?
Q No, not part of management. What blacks
were there on the Auxiliary Board?
A Myself, Peter Wrenn, Henry Goodgame, Leonard
Lewis, Rev. Murry — I don’t recall the fellows
names.
Q You have heard Mr. Jordan testify and is
it true that the committee since its formation
has had monthly meetings about job discrimination?
A Right.
Q Every month?
A We would have the meeting sometime twice
a month when necessary.
Q Was that the committee or just a general
meeting?
A This is a general meeting and sometime we
had a committee meeting twice a month, or better.
Q What about general meetings?
A We have had general meetings twice a
month when necessary.
Q And then that has been since what year?
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A The last of ’60, *69, *?0 wo have been
constantly having meetings.
Q But when did you first start?
A In March, 1965. That is the first general
meeting.
Q Is It true you have been having meetings
constantly since that time?
A Right.
lave you written letters to various people?
A Right.
Q Like who?
A We wrote to the President of the United
States, the Justice Department, Contract Compliance,
General Council I believe — I don't have all of
chat. It is in the record. Vie have It in the
record.
Q -,:r* Baskerville, when you took this test
were you — this was before any tests were given
to blacks?
A Yes, I went down to sot a standard is what
he told me. Go down and help them set a standard.
Something to go by. I was in that first number
that went down there.
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Q They hadn't been testing negroes before
that?
A So far as I know, no, sir.
Q . Had they tested white folks?
A They said they did but I don't know.
Q So you v/ere one of the average workers
I suppose that went down there to take the test?
A Right. Out of the core room. The reason
I went is because I was constantly on them about
this job there, putting negroes on certain jobs.
I was on the Board at that time or I believe I
was. No, I wasn't on the Board. I was constantly
talking to them about different jobs negroes were
capable of doing and some of them had been longer
than I had and this is why they sent me down.
Q Do you know anything about any instances
in your department where negroes have been —
whites passed over negroes with less seniority?
A Right. I know Clint Johnson. He moved out
of his department where I worked and he went to
the Maintenance Department.
Q Who is that?
A Clint Jones.
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Q Is he white or "black?
A White.
Q Do you know any other examples?
A Jerry Grable.
Q What is that now?
A Jerry Grable. He went to Unit E Foundry,
Gore Setting.
Q Is that the same department?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is he younger In seniority than you?
A Right. And also I can name some that came
in on this same particular job I am on at the pre
sent day. Ted Holtz, Lee Wallace and they came ■
from the Flask and transferred into the Core Room.
Q You mean from another department altogether?
A No, sir, another unit.
Q Another unit of this particular department?
A Right. Ted Holtz, Lee Wallace and Ray Jone3.
Q Die you know any negroes v/ho asked for jobs
that they have not gotten?
A I know of negroes v/ho asked for jobs —
Sam Ransom and Frank Moore.
Q Negroes?
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A Yes, sir, and James Lowery, Copeland
Sanders. Those fellows asked for core making
jobs. And they were told to take the test, they
would, have to take the test.
Q Do you know any negroes who have gotten
job3 that whites had previously in your depart
ment?
A A fellow named Shelton who run the crane,
he is operating a sand hauler, hauls sand on the
monorail and this job was cut.
Q When he got it?
A Right.
Q It was a previously all white job?
A Yes, sir, and the shell core machine.
The whites were on this job when they first put
the operation in but now it is all black and that
job was cut too.
Q Do you know what the rate was before the
blacks got it?
A No, sir, I do not.
Q Do you know about that other case? Do
you know what the rate was on that?
A That job come under the — at that time I
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know they were paying $3-75 because any white
man could go up there and run it. He was making
that rate. Wasn't no young whites in there at
that time.
THE COURT: Let's recess until 1:00
o'clock.
(Court was in recess from
12:00 o'clock until 1:30 P. M. )
THE COURT: I don't believe we had.
finished with Mr. Baskerville.
MR. ADAMS: Yes, we had finished.
THE COURT: Cross examination.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (by Mr. Forman) Mr. Baskerville, your job
is that of Service Man in the Core Room?
A Service Craneman Molder Helper, that's what
he said I was classified.
Q What?
A Service Craneman Molder Helper. That is
what they show.
Q Job Class 3 — Pay Group 3?
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A I don’t know what it is. All I know it
is Service Craneman Molder Helper.
Q What is your rate?
A $2.92.
Q What was that job paying in 1969, August,
1969?
A It was paying $2.78 I believe.
Q Do you remember it went to $2.78 in January,
1970? Before that it was $2.68 during 1969 — I
mean $2.67 during 1969? Do you recall that?
A I don’t recall exactly what it was. What
the rates were back there. I do know at the time
it was $2.67.
Q $2.67 an hour. It was $2.67 an hour backN
in 1969, was it not?
A I don't recall what it was.
Q Do you recall in August, 1969 you were
offered the job of jolt operator at the rate of
$2.83 which is 160 over what you were making and
you turned it down?
A Right, I did.
Q You made reference to a job you called
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core machine operator?
Vcderal Court Reporting Company 409 Federal Building Birmingham, Alabama 275
1 A Shell core machine operator.
2 Q Shell core machine operator?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q When was that job put in the foundry
5 if you recall?
6 ■ A I don't recall exactly what date hut it
7 has been there quite — approximately three years.
8 Q Three years? And who are the operators
9 on the shell core machine?
10 A White were on there to start with.
11 Q I am asking you who is on there now?
12 A Blacks are on there now. You want their
13 names?
14 a Yes.
15 A Ferris Hunter, James Glover —
16 Q And a fellow names Maddox?
17 A Who ?
18 Q Maddox? L. Maddox?
19 A I don't know his name.
20 Q Well, have each one of those three men
21 had longer service than you had at the plant?
22 A One of them does. All but one does. That
23 is Millhouse, I have more service than he does and
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he is on the machine.
Q I asked you about these three men, Glover,
Maddox and Hunter?
A Yes, sir.
Q You don’t have age on any one of those
three?
A No, I do not.
MR. FORMANi That’s all.
MR. ADAMSs No further questions.
THE COURTi All right, next witness.
(Witness excused. )
MR. ADAMSs Judge, before I take
this next witness I want to call the Court's
attention — I am sure the Court is familiar
with the Rule 32 A-l which provides that the
deposition of a party or anyone who at the time
of the taking of the deposition was an officer,
director or managing agent or a person designated
under Rule 30 13-6 and 31A who testifies on behalf
of a public corporation or private corporation or
a partnership or an association or government agency
party maybe used by the adverse party for any pur-
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pose.
In other words the deposition we took
of Mr. Coupland, we consider it as a deposition of
an officer, director or managing agent of the corp
oration which is sued which we would like to offer
for any purpose in these proceedings.
I just wanted to call your attention
to that.
THE COURT? Bill, will you get my
Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, please, sir?
MR. FELTON? Your Honor, I v/ant to
call your attention that this action is "brought'
under two statutes, Title VII and Title IX and
"both allege in the complaint and references made
to it in the July Order of the Court and I want
to call the Court's attention to that.
THE COURT? All right.
MR. Fq rm aN* Your Honor, I believe
the original answer of the defendant raises the
matter of the statute of limitations "but that is
not mentioned in the pre-trial order. If we are
going under the 1901 statute we would request the
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Court to amend the pre-trial order.
t he COURT: The Fifth Circuit has
just held within the past sixty days that the
Alabama one year statute applies to an action
brought under 1981.
MR. FORMAN: May we ask that the
pre-trial order he enlarged and amended to make
that defense available?
THE COURT: Oh, yes, you have that.
MR* FORMAN: Thank you.
MR. ADAMS: Judge, I don't know whether
I referred to 38 A-2?
THE COURT: Yes, I have that. I believe
Mr. Coupland’s deposition is admissable under that
Rule. He is identified as Vice-President and also
Works Manager and 1 think that qualifies that depo
sition under Rule 32 A-2.
MR. ADAMS: Thank you.
THE COURT: The deposition v/ill be
admitted into evidence.
IlR^J-jTViRD ARMSTRONG.
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called as a witness* being duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows j
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) State your name, please.
A Edward Armstrong.
Q Mr. Armstrong, you are an employee of
American Cast Iron Pipe Company, are you not?
A That's right.
Q How long have you been so employed?
A Fifteen years this past March.
Q What job have you held, Mr. Armstrong,
there at the American Cast Iron Pipe Company?
A In the beginning I — in 195^ I started
there and started as a grinder and worked on it
about six months and after that they put me on .
a chipper and I worked that for about eight years
I believe until we had a little row there between
me and the lead man and they decided they would
put me over in the foundry for a little place for
about six weeks. What happened, they sent me over
there and there never had been any chippers over
there before. They had sent grinders. Chippers
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were critical because nobody wanted to chip
but during that course I was over there, this is
the time in 1964 they had started integrating some
of the facilities out there and the only thing that
was integrated down there were the rest rooms and
the water fountains which I had a chance to run
into one of the present Board members at that time,
in fact he was Chairman, Mr. Ridgeway. I was over
in G Foundry and serving as a hook-up nan and what
ever side I was coming from, whether it was right
or left I got the first water fountain I come to
and during this time you would get a lot of cat
calls all over the building from different guys,
you know. So I guess they must have talked to him
being a Board member and he walked out and he said
how long have you been here and I said I have been
here long enough and he said what do you mean by
long enough and he said you are not supposed to use
that white fountain over there and I said I didn't
see any difference in the color of the water. It
is all the same color and they kept me over there
and shifted me around for a while about six weeks
in 1964. So they had us to sign an application
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that we would take the test at that time and I
signed it which was out of my unit and then they
called me back over there.
Q You are saying you are one of the original
people that took the test?
A Right.
Q One of the 98?
A No, sir, after the standard was set.
Q Oh* you say you took it right after that
— after the norm was established?
A You see, I was out of my unit at the time
I signed up for it. But before I got a chance to
take the test I was sent back to my original unit,
Foundry Reclaiming Process. I took the test and
about a week or so later I think Mr. Finch sent
for me and I went over there to his office and he
said you passed the test. He said you made a 3*
What do you attribute your passing the test and I
said I don’t know, what do you think and he said
have you ever been in the army and I said I sure
was and he said well, that is it right there, you
passed it because you were in the army and I said
well, maybe so.
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But after taking the test I was placed
on a crane which they started right away reclassi
fying the cranes in our unit. One was non-produc
tion and one was production crane and that was
changing the rate3 right there between the two.
So during the time I was upgraded there were three
other whites, two I remember and one that I don't
because this fellow came out of the foundry over
there and he was an inspector and th'i other
particular one came out of the foundry later was
shipped over to the pattern shop but the other two,
Florees and Eugene Martin, we all got to ACIPCO
about the same time. I think I am a few months
ahead of them. So I worked the crane three years
and they cut the rates on the jobs prior — just
behind that three years I had been on the crane.
These particular fellows received their rates
because we kept together and we knew all the time
what they were getting and they would ask me well,
did you ever get your raise and I would a :k them
too.
Q Were they white?
Ye3, sir.A
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They got theirs and I didn’t.
I was offered more jobs on the crane
which would not serve me any purpose because I
was already on a crane at present but I forget
now# I think it was a year later or two years
I took the test again and scored four. That
made me be able to operate all the cranes but
they had an incident before when I had the three,
they wanted me to operate both cranes anyway which
my license called for me to operate one particular
crane. But by me refusing to do some extra job that
we hadn't previously had the crane operators doing
when they were white# they told me not to bother the
other cranes so I didn't bother them. Such as if
I would get a spot which is what you call a break,
they want me to come out of the crane and put heat
on the fittings and doing other large touch-ups and
they didn't require that of the whites.
So I went back and took the test and got
a four and then they said you can operate all the
cranes in that immediate unit.
In the course of three years, like I say,
the other fellov/s got their rate and I didn't get
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the rate.
Q Is that after you got the four?
A Right.
Q . What was the rate to be?
A The rate would be on that crane I think
was about $2.96 on the enameline crane, non-pro
duction and on the production crane it was a
little more but I don't remember exactly the
amount.
Q Were these white men that you make com
parison with operating the same crane?
A They were not operating cranes. They were
inspectors or welders but their rates were right
even together. Same rates. I say they v/ere up
graded along with me at the same time.
Q In other v/ords you are saying the rate v/as
cut on the job you got and was not cut on theirs?
A It was cut on theirs also. What I am saying
is the rate v/as cut and they got the rate previously
set up but I didn't v/hich left me about eight cents
less than them.
Q All right, to make it clear, are you saying,
Mr. Armstrong, the rate v/hen you got on the job was
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cut and you didn't get the full rate and when
they got on the job and it was cut they did get
the full rate? Is that what you arc saying?
A What I am saying we were upgraded at the
same time and in 1968, February, about the 18th or
19th, they cut the rates on the job which we had
been on the job more than three years. And they
had got — received their rates and they didn't
cut it immediately after I got on the job but in
1968 they cut it on these particular jobs. But
they got their rate and I didn't get mine and we
all had been on it three years together.
Q In other words you are saying they got their
rate quicker than you got yours?
A I don't know how soon they got it but I
never have gotten mine yet. You see, I am an
inspector. I have been promoted to inspector.
What I mean is this, by these fellows — one is
an inspector and one is a lead man. But me being
an inspector that would make the difference in the
rate right now. Which if I had gotten the rate then
I wouldn't — it wouldn't have been necessary for
me to change to inspector to get that other eight
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cents because I would have already had that same
rate on the crane.
Q All right, have you been offered any jobs
that you refused?
A Yes, other crane operator jobs v/hich con
sisted of more work wh5*ch they already noted that.
I looked at them and they explained it was — sup
posed to have a job title of inspector but including
inspection, operating cranes, testing pipe, driving
the dinky and whatever else was necessary.
Q Are you a high school graduate?
A Right.
Q You have any other educational qualifica
tions?
A One year in Tuskegee and I went in the army
and come out in 1955 plus had some automobile train
ing, automotive repair in the army and then later
got into trade school after going to ACIPCO, plus
in addition to that taking a correspondence course
along this with getting a P. A., Practical Applica
tion at Western in automotive which a course included
automotive mechanics general and diesel which I
finished all of those. Right now I am presently
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servicing automobiles, buses, school buses and
all.
Q Have you actively sought any job at the
plant?
A I did. I went to Mr. Holmes, Charlie
Holmes, Foreman at that time and he is dead now.
I asked him about —
MR. FORMANj We object to any con
versation with a man who is dead.
THE COURT! I will overrule it.
Q Go ahead.
A I asked him about going into the mainten
ance repair department.
THE COURTi I think that is as far
as you can go, and not his reply.
MR. ADAMSs Ansv/er Mr. Forman's
questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Forman) Mr. Armstrong, do you recall
what the rate was for the job of crane operator you
were on? What the rate for that job was in 1969?
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A No, I really don’t. I was looking forward
to what was due to me but I don't recall, not
exactly.
Q Do you recall that you were paid over the
rate by 150 an hour?
A No, because they didn't cut the rate of
the employee. After you are already on a job they
were not supposed to cut it.
Q Your rate wasn't cut, was it?
A No, they are not supposed to cut it. It
was set that way.
Q You retained the overage and then the raise
of eight cents an hour in 1970, you got the eight
cents even though that was again over the rate, was
it not?
A I got the eight cents on what?
Q That general raise of eight cents in January,
1970.
A January, 1970? I was inspector then.
Q In January?
A Right.
q I show here that you made inspector October,
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A I didn't get the raise in January then.
Q Everybody got a raise at the plant, didn't
they?
A That was a general raise.
Q And you got the general raise?
A Yes, sir, everybody was supposed to get
it.
Q And you got it, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right, that was my question.
Now, let me ask you, in November, 1968 when
you were being paid $3*15 an hour you were offered
the job of production crane operator in E Foundry
at an increase to $3*23 an hour and you turned the
job down, didn't you?
A Sure, I turned it down, I was offered a-
crane operator's job and there was more work to
this. Every job you get is going to be out of
your unit.
Q And in November, 1969 you v/ere offered the
job, when you were getting $3*28 an hour, you were
offered the job of inspector over at M Foundry at
$3.36 an hour?
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A Right.
Q And you turned that down?
A Sure.
Q Then in this past year you did accept
the inspector’s job at an increased rate?
A Right .
Q Please, tell me those men’s names again,
those white men. I have down here Carl Reeves and
A That is Floyd Reed and Eugene Martin.
Q What job were they holding down?
A One was welder and I think they transferred
them to inspector and they both became inspectors.
Q Which was the welder?
A Floyd was welding at one time and Eugene
was welding at one time but both later became
inspectors.
MR. FORMANs That's all.
R£-SIRJiQT^XMIim.IQN
Q (By Mr. Adams) Mr. Armstrong, you stated
you turned down an inspector's job?
A Yes, sir.
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Q At one time. Will you tell the Court why
you turned it down?
MR. FORMANj We object to that if the
Court please, undisclosed mental operation.
THE COURTs I reserve my ruling and
let him answer.
Q Go ahead.
A I turned the job down of inspector because
it required more physical effort and more job
put into it. It had. the title of inspector but
it included about four or five other jobs. It
included inspector, testing pipe, driving crane,'
operating the dinky, a little lift truck in that
unit then plus going down to Number 1 which was
about four blocks away or something like that and
v/aiting on them to come out of the ovens. Which
wasn't but a few pennies more.
Q You did take the inspector's job subse
quently and why did you do that?
A It was in my immediate unit and less work.
MR. ADAMSt That’s all.
MR. FORMAN» That's all.
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THE COURTs Next witness.
(Witness excused.)
MR. HENRY BOOKER. JR..
called as a witness, being duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows t
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) State your name, Mr. Booker?
A Henry Booker, Jr.
Q Where do you live?
A 3°5 Burton Drive.
Q You are an employee at American Cast Iron
Pipe Company, is that right?
A Yes.
Q How long have you been so employed?
A 13 years and two months.
Q Are you working in the Monocast Department?
A Yes.
Q Have you been in that department all the
time?
A Yes, I have.
Q What job do you hold at the present time?
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A At the present time X am relief man on
the south side ramming station.
A Yes, around 19^3 I was offered a job —
I hurt my back on the ramming station and — on
the ramming station you have to be what you may
say at your best physical condition to do the work.
At this particular time I hurt my back and I couldn't
perform the job like the foreman thought I should
perform it and he wanted to know if I couldn't do
the job did I want to go out on the yard. I
explained to him that X rather stay on the ramming
station at that particular time. The ramming station
was the highest job in the Monocast and if I had taken
the job out on the loading yard there would be a
decrease in pay.
Q And what was the difference, do you remember,
in the pay?
A Well, at that particular time I was making
around $1.93 or $2.18.
Q And the other job pay was what?
A Much less than that I imagine.
Q You don't know what it was?
Q Have you ever been offered a job?
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A I don't know exactly, no, sir
Q Do you know it was less?
A I know it was le because at that time
the ramming station in Number 1, the old shop,
the black held all the ramming station jobs at
ACIPCO and it was one of the highest paid jobs
out there. And I know that the yard, some of
those other jobs like that was low paying jobs.
Q Did you take the test?
A Yes, I did.
Q What did you score on the test?
A fly foreman called me into the office and
I wanted to know what I scored on the test and he
told me I had scored, zero. And at this particular
time I was running the B rammer and he said that
I couldn't move any further unless I go back and
take the test and I was just froze where I was.
Since that time, take on the ramming station,
while running the B rammer, at times I had to run
the A rammer and also the hoist man's job. The A
rammer paid more than the B rammer and the hoist-
man's job paid much more than the B rammer but
still I run all the jobs.
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Q Are you saying, Mr. Booker, that you had
been discriminated in upgrading at ACIPCO?
A Yes, sir.
Q And your reason for that is v/hat?
A Well, take back in 1963 v/hen I first hurt
my back, well, v/hen I mentioned to. Mr. S. J. Simmons
about that I would try to perform the job instead
of taking a decrease in pay, that 1 would stay on
up there. From time to time since then it has been
— whites have been brought up on the job and I
have "hoped'* train these fellows that come up there
and they v/ork maybe a year or a year and a half
and they would be sent to other departments and I
know of two now that are lead men in my department.
Q Do you know what the actual score you must
make to be an A rammer?
A At that particular time — during this
particular time that the tests were instituted in
the first part of 1965. well, if I am not mistaken
it was in Pay Group 3.
Q Pay Group 3 but v/hat score on the test did
you have to make?
A You had to make at least a two or a three
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to run the hoistman’s job but yet still he told
me I made zero.
Q In other words you were working the job
but you made zero on the test?
A That *s right.
Q Do you know any whites — will you give the
name of some of the whites that worked along that
you helped train that have gone on to better jobs
than you have?
A Yes, one of his names is Vic Vickers. He
was placed on the ramming station in 19&5 and if
I am not mistaken he worked up there right at
a year and a half and they taken him off and he
was made lead man over the ramming station and one
more name, Mike Greer, and he worked up on the ramming
station not quite a year and a half and we "hoped"
learn him and these two particular fellows — this
is — during this particular time whenever you
would skip a mold, the foreman or the lead man
would come and require to you about sending empty
flasks and not sending a mold down and during this
particular time these two fellows was what you would
call — they never could perform the work and yet
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still they were taken off this job and made lead
men. And this fellow Mike Greer is a lead man
now over the iron skimmers and the casting mill
operators.
Q Have you ever asked for any better job?
A The only time I have asked'for a job is
during the time when I hurt my back and Mr. Simmons
asked me did I want to go out on the yard but I
told him I didn't want to take a decrease in pay.
Q In other words that is the only time you
have ever asked for a job?
A That is the only time I asked for another
job.
Q Are you on the committee of Equal Job
Opportunity?
A Yes, I am.
Q You don't hold an office in it, do you?
A Yes.
Q What is it?
A Since 1970 I am Co-Chairman of the Equal
Job Opportunity Committee.
Q You have heard the testimony here about
the number of meetings you have had over a period
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of year: Is that correct?
A That is correct. Since the first of March
1965 I imagine we have met one — this is the
committee — once or twice and sometimes weekly
but every month, not missing a month, and we
usually have a general meeting of all the employees
at ACIPCO.
Q Do you have — what kind of attendance do
you have at those meetings?
A Well, I imagine when we first started out
at the YMCA on 18th Street on Southside I imagine
it held about three or three hundred and fifty
men and sometimes we would have the building
filled and as many as we could hold and the rest
of the fellows would be probably downstairs or
you know, on the sidewalk and places like that.•
Q Would you give any average about the number
of people you had attending those meetings?
A Well, roughly saying, attending one meeting?
Q Yes, on an average.
A On an average. 400 men.
Q That would be every month?
A Every month.
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Q And you have written to various people,
you heard the testimony, and is that correct?
A That is correct, we have written to the —
to President Johnson and we have written to the
Justice Department and also written to the Contract
Compliance and have written to the Attorney General
and also the Equal Job Opportunity Commission.
Q Do you know how many complaints you filed
with the Equal Job Opportunity?
A Well, in all we have had around 1200 different
complaints being filed at Equal Job Opportunity
Commission down at the 2121 Building. Bat just
to say charges filed, we have about 718.
Q Is that concerning the discrimination through
out the plant?
A That's right.
Q Let rae ask you this. Did you have an
election after the court's ruling disolving the
Auxiliary Board? Was there an election in the
plant to determine who v/ould be on the Board of
Operatives?
Q
Yes.
Did — any negroes elected to the Board of
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Operatives?
A No* sir.
Q Did the negroes boycott the election?
A Yes, during that particular time we had a
temporary decision handed down by the court about
the Board situation out there. And before this
election come up there was a misunderstanding
about the oath the men on the Auxiliary Board
were supposed to have taken before being accepted
into office.
Q An oath?
A Yes, sir. And I understand they wouldn't
take the oath of office on the ground that if they
had taken the oath they would have been working for
the company and not for the men the?/ were working
for. The ones that had voted for them to put them
on the Board.
After they wouldn't take the oath they were
— the Auxiliary Board was debanded and when the
election come up for the Board of Operatives, if
the negroes didn't have any voice as a firect means
of contact with the Board of Directors or the Board
of Management, well, what we done is we just boycotted
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the election.
Q In other words are you saying they didn’t
vote for anybody?
A Anybody.
Q Anybody. And therefore there are no negroes
on the Board of Operatives at the present time?
A No.
Q Were there any areas of the plant where
negroes had a larger number than the whites?
A Well, the way it stands during the parti
cular time, during the time of the election, well,
the plant had twelve districts and there was a
possibility that maybe one or two negroes could
have gotten on the Board of Operatives but we
didn’t want to have any part to do with the election
because if we had gotten one or two on the Board they
still wouldn’t have had any power at all.
Q I believe you are familiar with the Monocast
Department. Is that one of the departments that there
was a higher concentration of negroes before 1965?
A Yes, sir.’
Q A large number of negroes there.
A Ye3, sir.
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Q Has that changed any since 1965?
A Yes, it has.
Q Tell the Court what happened?
A Well, before the Civil Rights Bill passed
in 196k, all the jobs that were worked in the
Monocast Department Number 1 except lead men
and crane operators and casting machine operators
and pipe inspectors, the rest of the jobs were
run by blacks. But since the Civil Rights Bill
was passed in 196^ and since 1965 there have been
numerous whites hired in to run these jobs and they
stay on the job maybe a year or a year and a half
and then they were transferred to other jobs and
the negroes that were there they are still there.
Q Do you know any names of whites that were
moved in and passed you?
A Yes, we have one — one fellow worked on
the southside ramming station with me that is a
pipe inspector now. His name is Wayne Counts. He
has been there about six years.
We have another one named Jerry Hall and
he is in Unit 23 as a welder. And we have another
one named Floyd Cornelius and he has been moved to
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the Machine Shop and there is another named Jim
Grace who has been moved to the storeroom. And
not on the ramming station but on the loading
tables at the ramming station# a fellow named
Roy Miller and he is with the Electrical Depart
ment now.
Q Do you know of any jobs that negroes have
gotten in the Monocast Department where the rate
has been cut after they take the jobs?
A Yes, sir.
Q Tel'7, what they are.
A One is the casting machine.
Q Will you explain what happened?
A Well, during the time that — after 1965
when the whites was on these particular jobs,
before the negroes were placed on these jobs the
rates was cut. These particular whites were moved
to other departments or either made lead men and
the negroes — after the negroes were placed on
the job that job had been cut.
Q In other words didn't cut it while they
were on there but cut it before you went on it?
A Yes# sir.
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Q And they got the job that v/as previously
all white at a cut rate?
A That's right.
Q Do you have any formal education?
A High school graduate, Hooper City High
School.
Q Have you — what other courses have you
taken or educational qualifications do you have?
come up with an education program that they had
up there where they had elementary blueprinting,
fundamentals of pipe making, mathematics and
classes like that and I taken the elementary
blueprint course which lasted three months and
also the fundamental pipe making which lasted
three months.
Q Did you pass the courses?
A I have a certificate for both of them.
Q Any other training you have had?
A No.
A Well, during the year 1966 the company
MR. ADAMS 1 That' 3 all.
CROSS EXAMINATION
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Q (By Mr. Forman) When did you gay the
rate on the casting machine was cut, what year?
A If I am not mistaken it was 1969 — 1968.
Q What was the rate before it was cut and
v/hat was the rate after it was cut?
A The rate on the casting machines v/as $3.53
or $3*66.
Q V/hat year?
A 1969.
Q What was the cut to?
A They were cut back to $3-^2.
Q When wore the first blacks put on the
casting machines as operators the best you can
recall?
A Around 1970.
Q Have you looked at Plaintiff's Exhibit k
and Number 7 that shows four blacks and eleven
whites on that job in 19 6 5?
A 1965?
Q Yes.
A I don't recall in 19 6 5.
Q Since the first of the year have you seen
jobs posted that — in your department that carried
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a higher rate than the one you were receiving?
A Yes.
Q Have you hid on any of them?
A No.
MR. FORMAN: That's all.
R"'-.DIRECT EXAMINATION .
Q (By Mr. Adams) What is the reason for
not bidding on them, fir. Armstrong?
A The simple reason I make $3*^2 an hour
and the jobs that have come open are $3»53> some
thing like the hoist job. Well, I am already
running relief man on the ramming station and I
run that job now and I am not being paid for it
and the job that pays $3.66 is not much more than
I am already making.
Q In other words you say the jobs that come
open are not much more than the ones you are already
on and making?
A That's right.
MR. ADAMS* That’s all.
•MR. FORMAN* That's all.
(Witness excused. )
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THE COURT: Next witness.
MR... TOM GOSSOM.
called as a witness, being duly sworn, was examined
and' testified as follows :
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) State your name, please.
A Tom Gossom.
Q Where do you work, Mr. Gossom?
A American Cast Iron Pipe Company.
Q How long have you been employed out there?
A Eighteen years.
Q And what department of the plant are you
worsting in?
A The Shipping Department.
Q How long have you been in the Shipping
Department?
A Eighteen years.
Q Are you familiar with the job -- the Equal
Job Opportunity Committee?
A That's right.
Q Have you attended any of their meetings?
Yes, sir, I have attended their meetings.A
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Q Talk a little louder.
A Yes, 1 have attended their meetings.
Q How long have you been attending such
meetings?
A I don't remember.
Q Do you know whether they hold monthly
meetings?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you asked for any better job than
you have at ACIPG0?
A No.
Q Have you been offered any better job?
A No.
Q Do you know of any jobs which have come
open that whites have gotten over negroes with
more seniority?
A Yes.
Q What jobs are they?
A Fork lift operator and —
Q Is that in your department?
A That is in the Shipping Department
not whero I work.
Also shipper, fork operator and the office
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personnel#
Q What whites got those jobs, do you know?
A Auburn Graham shipper, Huey Delane fork
operator, Richard Thompson shipped, Robert Phillips
shipper, Robert Harris office personnel, Ronnie
Romano office personnel, Mike Sewell shipped,
Bradley Barnet fork operator, James Frederick,
fork operator and John Bolton, he has gone to the
Electric Shop and Glenn Neely, Electric Shop and
another fellow named Bruce but I don't know his
other name and he has gone to the main office.
Q They all came in there after you did?
A They all came in there after I did. They
came in around 1965#
Q Did you take the test?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did you make on that test?
A Zero. And my job that I work on there are
six of us there black and three of us make $3*23
and three of us make $3*°9 and all doing the same
thing. Been on-that job about eleven years.
Q In other words you all do the same thing
and you have the same title?
. Federal Court Reporting Company
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A Same title, brazier.
Q And these are all black people?
A All black.
Q And they make a difference in wages?
A That's right.
Q Do you make more than they do?
A I make less, $3*09 and three of them make
$3-23.
Q In other words you do the exact same thing?
A Yes, sir.
MR. ADAMS* That's all.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Forman) Is there a fellow named
C. Holmes who is a brazier?
A That's right,
q Bo you know when he came with the company?
A I don’t know.
Q What about Champion and O'Neal, do you
know when they came with the company?
A I don't know.
q Wasn't there at one time — were you not
called car man?
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A That's right. When I first came there.
I first came there as a pipe loader and then they
moved me down there fixing up cars and I was the
car man.
Q And then the job was changed when the
pipe was being packaged as it came out of the
plant?
A When this job was changed I was moved down
with the braziers and we all did the same thing
but I was still a car man a good while and they
finally changed it to brazier.
Q And you got the job of brazier?
A Yes, sir.
Q And at the time the job was rated up
higher than what you had been receiving and you
received an increase in the rate?
A I received an increase in rate but we still
do the same thing and they make more.
Q Where do the other three fellows come from,
what were their jobs?
A Well, I am not sure but ever since I remem
ber they were braziers.
Q You don't know what job they came from before
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they were braziers?
A I think they came from the yard.
Q Do you know what job they had just before
they became braziers?
A I don't know.
Q You don’t know what rate they were making
on the job before they became braziers?
A That has been too long, I can't remember.
> MR. FORMANj No further questions.
MR. ADAMSi That's all.
(Witness excused. )
THE COURTi Next witness.
MR. PEAELIE BAILEY.
called as a witness, being duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows t
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) State your name, please,
sir?
A My name is Pearlie Bailey.
Q You are employed at the American Cast Iron
Pips Company?
A Yes, sir.
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Q THE COURTi I did not catch that
name.
MR. ADAMSs Pearlie, P-E-A-R-L-I-E
Bailey.
A That’s right.
Q Mr." Bailey, did you take the test at
American Cast Iron Pipe Company?
A Yes, I took a test at ACIPCO in 1965.
Q What did you make on the test?
A Well, they called me in the office and
told me that I made one on the test.
Q You made one?
A Right.
Q Have you taken a test any other times?
A Yes, I took the test again when the super-
intendent told me the first time I had taken the
test, he said, you need to go hack and get some
education. So I went back to school and then I
took the test again and this time he told me that
I made eight on the test. They ohanged the system
over from one to eight.
Q In other words when was the last time you
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took the test?
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A In 1969.
Q So you made a score under the PQ system?
A Yes, sir.
Q Rather than the AL system?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you made eight?
A That is what he told me.
Q Mr. Bailey, have you worked for any —
what are you doing at the present time?
A I am doing the same job I was doing in
196bt B rammer.
Q In the Monocast?
A The Number 1 Monocast.
Q Were you — have you ever tried to get a
better job?
A Yes, I have.
Q All right, did you ask for a better job?
A The first job I asked for I asked for the
departmental clerk.
Q When was that?
A That was in 1965 I asked for departmental
clerk.
Q What qualifications did you have on that
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occasion? Are you a high school graduate?
A Yes, I am.
Q What else?
A I finished business college at Booker T.
Washington and I finished two correspondence
courses in business administration and business
management and also the Computer Program Insti
tute.
Q And you asked for the job as —
A Departmental clerk.
Q And what happened?
A He told me I would have to take the
typing test and all and I took the typing test.
Q Did you pass it?
A I don't know, I never saw the results from
the test.
Q Did you ever hear anything about your
request for this clerical job?
A No, I haven't.
Q What job do you hold at the present time?
A I hold the B rammer job.
Q Have you ever asked to work on the crane?
A Well, actually the side floor crane and I
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aslced the general foreman for the side floor
crane and he told me that he needed a man that could
do all the jobs including the jobs on Number 1 be
cause if he had to pull him off the side floor
crane and he would use this man at other places.
And I told him I'was already doing-all the other
jobs and I didn't see why I couldn't do that one
and he said well# you made enough on the test but
it is your attitude.
Q When was this said?
A This was said in *69.
Q You made enough to get on the job that you
asked for but it was your attitude?
A It was my attitude. He said I fit in all
categories but my attitude.
Q Who told you this?
A It was the general foreman# Teddy Gilmer.
Q In that particular department?
A Ye3, sir, Number 1 Monocast.
Q Do you know any whites who have less seniority
than you that have passed by you since you have been
there?
A Oh, yes. Homer Cook, he is in Number 3 and
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Bob Lovo the Electrical Department, George Ellis
who wa3 sent to the store and Ernest Montgomery
in the Construction Department and Jerry Hall a
welder, Jim Horner, Repairman, James Frederick,
Shipping, Vic Victor lead man, Mike Greer lead
man, Floyd Cornelius Machine Shop, Bill Graham
Machine Shop, Wayne Count Inspector, Jerry Whitley,
Machine Shop, Bob Gilmer, Number 2 Monocast and
those are the ones that I can remember now.
Q They came in after you did?
A These are the men that came in during the
'6k - '65 cycle.
Q Was that after you?
A After me. I came in in 1958*
Q Are you a member of the committee on
Equal Job Opportunity?
A Yes, I am.
Q How long have you been a member?
A I have been a member of the committee about
four years.
Q Do you meet regularly?
A Yes, sir, we meet regularly about once a
month or twice a month.
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Q Are you familiar with the change in the
number of whites in the Monocast Department after
1965?
A Yes, I am.
Q Tell the Court what happened in the Monocast
Department?
A Well, about — in '55 I would say is about
when they were shipping the whites out of Number 1
and give us just the two districts, the only two
districts we could have had. and then they shipped
them back in and that is why we boycotted the
election.
Q Do you know whether or not there were a
large number of whites hired at ACIPCO after '65
A Oh, yes, I am sure there more whitos hired
at ACIPCO in 1965 than there were blacks.
Q Are there any departments which are predominately
white?
A Oh, yes, several departments, Steel Pipe,
Mag-Coke, the Brass Foundry and most of them don't
have any blacks and they don't have any on the
clerical staff in the Medical Department.
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Q Are these jobs higher paying than the
one they worked the blacks on?
A Some are and some — most of them that I
know are.
Q Are the blacks mostly in the Production
Department?
A Yes.
Q Did you take a course with the company?
A Yes, I went to night school out there off
and on three years.
Q What did you take?
A I took pipe making and math and blueprint
reading.
Q What year was that?
A Between 1964 and 1966, somewhere in that
time.
Q Were the classes integrated at that time
or segregated?
A when I first started off they were segre
gated .
Q When was that?
A I don't know exactly what year exactly but
it was about 1964 and then they integrated them the
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last year I was there.
Q Bo you know any of the blacks out there
who make over $4.00 an hour?
A No, X don’t. I was surprised to hear there
was one yesterday.
Q Do you know him?
A I know him when I see him but X don't
know how much he is making.
THE COURT: On that point I notice
on Plaintiff’s Exhibit 7 that there is a black
engine lead man making $4.10 an hour and there
are three black, I believe maintenance mechanics,
making $4.10 an hour.
MR. ADAMS: What department is that?
THE COURT: The Maintenance Department.
About halfway down the page. My line shows I believe
maintenance mechanic in 1971. three blacks and 48
whites at $4.10 an hour.
MR. FORMAN: If the Court please,
let me make an explanation. This rate is the job
rate. As you recall Mr. Coupland's testimony when
a man goes on the job he moves up and I don't
believe these black maintenance employees are
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at the job rate yet.
THE COURTi Well, I just wanted to
call attention to that Exhibit 7. That does not
differentiate between the rate paid.
MR. FORMAN: Well, Plaintiff's Exhi
bit 11 does and 12 does give the actual rate and
those men can be identified but I want the Court
to understand they will proceed to this rate as
the training period is over.
THE COURT: I understand.
MR. ADAMS: That’s all.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Forman) How many of these men you
have named have gone through the apprenticeship
program?
A I don’t know how many have gone through
the apprenticeship courses.
Q You have named a lot of men who are crafts
men?
A I named ’the men who got moved out over me.
I didn’t say anything about any apprenticeship
course. They got shipped out of the department
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over me.
Q They went to other departments and you don't
know what they did in those departments?
A I know what they are doing in the other
departments.
Q But you don't know whether- they went through
the apprenticeship program or not?
A I didn't say that, I don't know that.
Q Nov/, your job base is what rate? The
Rammer B job, pay group six and you are being
paid the job rate of $3*23 an hour?
A Right.
Q And you have been paid that since — well,
you have been on the job rate for how long? As
long as you have been a Rammer B?
A I v/as ramming before they started having
a Rammer B. The job I am doing now v/hich is
Rammer B is the job that I got July 24, 1958*
Q And you are being paid $3.23 an hour on
that job?
A Yes, sir.
Q And has there been a job of Rammer A
offered to you?
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A Yes, they have heen a job offered to me
as Rammer A.
Q Have you been offered a job of Rammer Hoist
Operator?
A No, I haven't.
Q Have you seen them posted for bids in
that department?
A Yes, I've seen them posted for bids.
Q Have you put in any bid for it?
A No, I didn't.
Q Did you at one time make a request of
Mr. Teddy Gilmer to learn to operate the Monorail
Crane ?
A Yes, I did.
Q And did he make arrangements for you to
take training on that job?
A No, he didn't. He made arrangements for me to
train on the job on my spare time and my break which
I asked him the question why I couldn't train like
the white boy did, come in in the morning and stay
on that job like the white boy did. He told me
that I could do too many jobs and he wasn't going
to put me on no job to train on.
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Q What was the name of the white boy you
had reference to?
A Bob Gilmer. Bob Gilmer stayed on the crane
about two months.
Q Didn't you leave the crane saying the job
was too hot?
A No, I didn't.
Q You did not?
A I did not. I didn't say the job was too
hot.
Q Let me ask you this * After you went off
the job, training, didn't Willie Thomas, a negro
employee go into training on the monorail?
A Yes, he did.
Q And he has been an operator since January,
19?0 on that very job?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that is — what is the pay on that job?
A That job now pay $3*66.
Q And then the next man that went on the job,
Mack Stewart, and he is a negro employee, is he not?
A Right.
Q And he became a monorail operator before then
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on December 1, 1969, didn't he?
A I guess he did.
MR. FORMANi All right, that's all.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) Do you know how those negro
operators were trained?
A Yes, 1 do. Willie Thomas, the one he
referred to, the black monorail drivers who were
trained on their spare time which would be thirty
minutes a day, lunch period and they would train
on their lunch hour and come in to work before
time and train on it and train on their break.
He didn't have any — the same training period
that the whites had. That is what I was asking
for.
Q Do you know anything about the other man?
A He was on the other shift and they had a
different system. In fact he would let him stay
up there about an hour each day and then pull him
back on his job*
Q Have you seen any come open for bids recently
that were better jobs than the ones you had?
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A I have seen — have I seen some come open
for bid that are better jobs than I have?
Q Right.
A Yes, I have.
Q Would you state what that is?
A Well, I have seen jobs come open because
of the simple fact the job we have is considered
the hardest job in the monocast. That is why these
other jobs are better.
Q And that is since the bidding system?
A That is since the bidding system and these
jobs might be better but they pay less.
Q Or if they pay more they are harder?
A Yes, that is what I am saying. The job
that they been putting on the boards for bid are
the low paying jobs and some of the low paying
jobs might be easier than the jobs I have now but
they pays less money.
Q Have you got any jobs that have been put
up for bid that pay more than you are making?
A I don’t believe there would be too much
difference. Maybe in one or two instances.
Q One or two?
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A Yes, I have seen one or two?
Q And why didn't you bid those?
A Because they take more physical effort
and mental effort to do it than the one I am
on.
MR. ADAMS: That's all.
MR. FORMAN: That's all.
(Witness excused.)
MR. RUSH PETTWAY.
called as a witness, being duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) Mr. Pettway, are you employed
at the American Cast Iron Pipe Company?
A I am.
Q How long have you been so employed?
A Since September 29, 1950*
Q Are you a member of the Equal Job Opportunity
Committee?
A I am.
Q And you are the Rush Pettway, the lead Plain-
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tiff in this case?%
A Right.
Q Would you tell the Court, please, what
was the Equal Job Opportunity Committee organized
for?
A Well, the Equal Job Opportunity Committee
was organized to break up all the discrimination
at ACIPCO.
Q What department are you in at the present
time?
A Cleaning Shed in the foundry.
Q Cleaning Shed, in the foundry?
A Yes, sir.
Q What jobs have you held there?
A Well, I have held grinding and right now
I am a crane operator.
Q Have you ever asked for a better job in
your department?
A Ye3, I have.
Q And what happened when you asked for a
better job?
A They told me I would have to take a test.
Q Have you ever taken a test?
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A No, I haven't.
Q So, therefore, you didn't get the job
because you hadn’t taken the test?
A That's right.
Q Have you got any high school education?
A Well, very little.
Q How far did you go in school?^
A Sixth grade.
Q What job are you on now, Mr. Pettway?
A I have been operating a crane for about
two months and three days or something like that.
Q How long?
A About two months and three days.
Q Did you bid for this job?
A Yes, I did.
Q When was that bid made?
A That bid was made I think in July.
Q How much does this job pay?
A Well, they tell me it is going to pay
$3-^2 but I haven’t received a penny yet. As
of now.
Q How much were you making before you took
this?
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A $2.92.
Q And that is what you are making now?
A That's right* that's way I am making now.
Q When did. you take the job?
A I don't remember the date but it has been
two months ago.
Q Have you been told — you still would have to
go on the rate progression schedule but I understand
that has been frozen because of the ninety day
freeze* is that correct?
A Right.
Q Is that what they told you why you have
not made any increase?
A Well, yes* he told me that, that everything
was frozen and he didn't know exactly when I would
get my raise. But it was supposed to be turned in
on the 27th of last month. But he didn't say I
would get it or whether I would get back time or
not. He said he didn't know.
Q Do you know how long it's supposed to take
you before you get the rate the job calls for?
If the freeze is taken off?
A Well, I haven't been told but the way they
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gave them there, it would take rne a period of
three years, two or three years to get up to
$3,142. The rate has been cut on that crane since
the negroes started operating it.
q What was it before they started operating
it?
A Well, Mack Lewis was the one operating
that crane and he told me before he died which has
been about three or four years ago, but I think he
told me his rate was around $3*80 but I am not sure.
He was making that before he died.
Q Have you ever been offered a job, Mr. Pett
way, that you refused?
A Yes, I was offered one of those iron foreman
jobs in the foundry which was nine cents more than
I am making now and you had to pour the iron with
your hands. Out of the hand ladle.
Q Why did you refuse the job?
A It was out of my department and they had
older men over there than me and I felt like, you
know, if anybody should got it it should be the
older men over there. I wouldn't leave my depart
ment to go over there.
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Q Are you familiar with the change in the
employment structure so far as the number of
blacks against whites since 1965?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you state what that is?
A Well, I would say 1965 'they hired about
four hundred and something whites and I believe
about seven colored. That is 1965 and from then
on they have been hiring them and they have hired
five or six whites and there would be one or two
colored. That is the way it has been up until now.
Q That is your best judgment?
A Yes, sir, I don’t have the figures on it
right now.
Q You are saying they hire more whites than
blacks?
A Exactly.
Q Have you participated in the activities
of the Equal Job Opportunity Committee meetings?
A Yes, sir.
Q The letter writing?
A Yes, sir.
Q And so forth?
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A Right.
Q Did you — were you instrumental in filing
the EEOC complaint?
A Yes, sir.
Q You have heard the testimony of others about
that and is that correct?
A It is correct.
MR. ADAMSt That's all.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Forman) Mr. Pettway, do you recall
you were offered a job as jolt operator in the foundry
in September, 1969 and you turned it down?
A September, 1969?
Q Yes.
A Yes, I remember. I think what happened in
that particular department, they had men over there
that were older than me and I felt like they should
have the job. I wouldn't leave my department and go
over there and take over because they were older than
I was and they v/ere fighting for equal opportunity and
I don't think I would be helping none by going over
there.
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Q You don't know whether they had been
approached about the job at all? It wasn't your
business to know that?
A No, I didn't ask whether —
Q You didn't ask them?
A No, sir, I didn't think it was my duty to
ask about their jobs.
Q And the first job you bid on v/as the crane
operator job and you got it based on your age, did
you not?
A Well, yes, was several jobs up but I didn't
bid on them. They tried to get mo to bid on them
but I told them there was a lot of men in there
older than me and give them a chance and they went
over in the foundry and got three or four older men
and everyone failed on the job for some reason. And
when it got down to me then I bid. I v/as waiting
until they got to my time.
Q And you don't know why the other men didn't
make a go of it?
A Well, under the — our department head, I
don't think anybody would make it, under him. He
is pretty hard to please.
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Q Who is your department head, please?
A Mr. John Greer.
Q You don’t know whether or not the men who
tried out on the jobs before you did asked to be
taken off the jobs, do you?
A Well that question came up once and I actually
believe —
Q But I asked you if you know?
A No, I don’t.
MR. FORMAN* No further questions.
MR. ADAMS? 'That’s all.
(Witness excused. )
MR. ATTON PUGH.
called as a witness, being duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows!
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) Mr. Pugh, your name is
Alton Pugh?
A Alton.
Q And you live at 22F, Center Way South?
A 22^1 Center Way South.
Q And you are employed at American Cast Iron
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Pipe Company?
A Right,
Q When were you so employed?
A I don't know what date but it was in May,
1956.
Q And you have been employed there constantly
since?
A Right.
Q What department are you in?
A I am in the Number 3 Monocast now but I
started in Number 2. I was hired for Number 3
but Number 3 wasn't built and I was transferred
to Number 3 after it got built.
I started in heating pipe in Number 2
Cleaning Shed and I left there and went to the
spigot end and worked on the spigot end and Number
3 Enameline. I left there to mix cement and from
that to lining pipe and then back to cement to
grinding to trucking and gauging pipe.
Q Did you take the test?
A Yes, I did.
Q What did you make on it?
A He said zero.
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Q And have you asked for any jobs at ACIPCO?
A Yesi in 1965 I asked for a swiping machine
operator and he told me that I didn't make enough
on the test to get it. Well* the enamelining
machine* you had to make three on the test to get
that job and I already had been doing that job and
I was the second man who did the job and he told me
— I asked the foreman did I have to take the test
to run the lining machine and he said yes you do and
I said well, I have been lining them all the time.
So he came out with a card that said that you under
stood the test but you had to sign your name but I
didn't sign my name and. I told the man, well, I
lined pipe and I said that is in Group 3 and I said
why should I have to take the test and why can't I
make the money I am already — the pipe that I line
you are sending it to the other fellow and he said
yes, but it is like this, if I weighed 200 pounds
and you weigh a hundred and sixty, I will overbalance,
therefore, if you don't want to line pipes which is
a lighter job, you can go back to mixing cement so
that's what I done. At that time I got my finger
cut off.
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Q When was this?
A That was July this year and I went to the
hoist building — I went hack to work that morning
and. the superintendent and he told me, he said, let
me see your finger and I showed it to him and he
said of, you didn't get as much of your finger cut
off as I thought you did — that was Mr. George
Harrison and I said no, I didn't and he said are
you back on the cement mixer and I said no, not
yet.
On that job the sacks weigh 9^ pounds and
you have to put it up and my hand was still not well
yet. So they kept directing me to go to the doct>.,r
every week and I told him they wanted me to go back
on the job and he told mo, he said, well, you are
going to have to do it and I said, you haven't
turned me loose yet and that finger is still sore
but he said you want to work and you'd better go
back to the job. So I didn't tell the foreman what
he said.
So later on this kid that was lining pipe,
he got sick and the man told me, he said, — this
white boy was my helper and he v/as mixing cement
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and he said, look, this man is not coning back
and I want you to go bid on the job. He told this
white boy to bid on the job and he told me, I want
you to have this job but the job is open and you
have to bid on it. He said you go up there and
put your name on the bid and this will be your
job. So about two days later the lead man told
me, he said, this is you - job. So the fellow
that was on the job he came in to work but during
that time I had lined pipe for five months and
I had three shifts and out of that five months
I got a seven cent raise, which made mo $3*09
and mixing cement paid and they had a cut
back. The way they do on a cut back, they turn
around and ship all of the young men, mostly
white and ship out negroes somewhere and. then
send them to the Machine Shop, the Electric Shop,
the Carpenter Shop and lead men and they take a
lead man like in my department and send them to
the Carpenters Shop in another department and he
will work along with the lead, men learning how to
be a lead man over the rest of the guys what already
got more age than him and know more about the job
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because that is ray lead man, I know more about
the job than he do and yet he is over me.
Q And you say that you have trained people
with less knowledge of the job than you and now
they are over you?
A Right.
Q You asked, for the job of swiping machine
operator which is a white job?
A Right.
Q And did. they give you any — offer you
any job in return? When was this you asked for
it?
A It was in 1965 but since later he offered
me a job, a week before vacation, he said, hey,
I got you a job and I said what is that and he
said packing patterns and I said how much you pay
and he said $2.92 and that is less than I was making.
Q Did he give you any reason why he offered
you the job that paid less?
A No, he didn't but I trained a bunch of
white guys in vai’ious departments.
Q Who are they?
A Well, Ralph Counts is a lead man in the
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Carpenter Shop and Paul Goldsby in the Inspection
Department, Otis Nixon in the Carpenter Shop,
Frank Shutts in the Storage Room, Eddie Hopkins
in the Sheet Mill, Jimmy Chapman in the Repair
Department, Boh Craneman in the Repair Department
and he hasn’t been there two years. And Earl
Burnett in the Shipping Department. He drives a
fork lift and he went over there about two or three
about two or three years and he didn't get no train
ing, he had to go over there and be trained and then
he got the job after he learned the job and the guy
working over him is still his helper.
Q These people had less seniority than you?
A Right. And back in 196^ when the Civil
Rights Bill was passed, all men that had been there
for ten years, eight or ten years they made lead men
and foremen out of them. They taken these new guys
and put them on the machines and trained them up
and by the time you trained them they hired some
more and let them train them. In other words they
went to this job I was on and he could do my job
but I couldn't do his. He would go down and stand
around and watch three men on one job and when they
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would need a man they could just go get this man
and put him hut they couldn't put me on th;re
because I didn't have any training.
THE COURTi Take a ten minute recess.
(Court was in recess from
3 sOil P. M. until 3*20 P. M. )
THE COURT* All right.
MR. ADAMS* No further questions.
GROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Forman) You started in the Number
3 Monocast Pipe Shop in January, 1957?
A I think so.
Q And you were an annealing oven helper when
you first started or do you recall that?
A No, sir.
Q Do you remember you were an enameline
spigot man?
A Yes, sir.
Q How long did you hold that job?
A Two or three years.
Q Didn't you hold that job until 19&3 when
you became a grinder?
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A Yes, I was a grinder about three months.
Q You were a grinder for how long?
A Three months.
Q Then where did you go?
A On the cement mixer helper.
Q Cement Mixer Helper in the' Number 3 Cleaning
Shed of the Monocast?
A Yes, sir.
Q How long did you stay on that job?
A Well, I stayed, about seven or eight years
from one job to the other. When someone would be
off on that job I took his job.
Q like what job?
A I was lining pipe and I worked on the spigot
end and then I was on my own job and he would tell
me he wanted me to work the spigot end and somebody
else would mix the cement and I would go back to
working the spigot end.
Q In 1970 you were put on the enameline
machine operator for a short time?
A Yes, four months.
Q When you went on that job you were — you
received an increase in pay, did you not?
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A Seven Gents.
Q And how long — you were there five months
and the shop had a reduction in force, did they not,
and you went back to your prior job of cement mixer?
A Right.
Q And on the prior job as cement mixer you
were still being paid that increased job rate
even though it was above the rate for the job
you were on?
A Right.
Q All right, one other question.
Did you bid on any jobs that were being
posted in the Monocast Department ouch as Rammer
or any higher paying job than the one you are on?
A I didn't bid on the rammer because I am not
able to do the job.
Q Physically able?
A That’s right.
Q Because of your loss of part of your finger?
A And also because I am down in my back, yes,
sir.
Q That condition limits the amount of physical
work you can do?
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A Right.
MR. FORMANt That's all.
MR. ADAMSs That's all.
(Witness excused. )
MR. ROBERT BATES.
called as a witness, "being duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows»
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr, Adams) Mr. Bates, you work at
American Cast Iron Pipe Company and live — where
do you live?
A 7109 Maples Avenue, East Lake.
Q Where do you work in the pipe company?
A I work in the Foundry Cleaning and. Processing
Unit 36. —
Q Did you take a test at ACIPCO?
A No, I didn't.
Q Never have taken a test?
A No, sir.
Q Have you any high school education?
A I am a graduate of Rosedale High School.
I completed three years business administration
Federal Court Reporting Company
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at the Booker T, Washington Business College and
I completed two years of IBM including card point
interpretation, the reproducer and 4-02 IBM machine.
Q Have you asked for any upgraded job at ACIPCO?
A During the time of 1966 when this committee
was formed and in the process of asking for jobs, I
placed my name on the list asking for the IBM job.
That was during that year. Later on we received
a letter from J. C. King and I had an opportunity
to read it. I don't recall everything that was in
the letter but there were two words tha , will always
linger in my mind and that was a B and -- and an
H with a -- concerning me not getting the job.
Q Who is Mr. King?
A At the time I guess he was Personnel Director.
Q And this was what year?
A 1966.
Q Have you ever asked for any other jobs?
A No, I haven't asked for another job. I
only asked for the job I am doing now, that it
be rated.
Q What are you doing now?
A I am doing industrial painting and the reason
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why I would call this industrial painting is
because I have to deal with 62 different types
of paint and some of them are two components and
some of them are one component but they contain
all different types of chemicals. And the latest
one that we have is called the polybond line.
Q What is that?
A Polybond. The proper name is polyethylene
and that is a plastic lining that is put inside of
all sizes of pipes that we process in the foundry
Cleaning and Processing Unit and this processing
is done in the foundry core room. And in order
to do this processing the fitting has to be heated
to 600 degrees and this lining has to be applied
between 600 and 450 degrees. That is the only
time that you can apply this type of lining and
we does it in the foundry core room where they have
ovens and if they are larger diameter we does them
in the steel foundry where they have a larger oven.
Q What is your job title?
A My job -title on the last sheet I looked at
was a spray coater but I define a spray coater as
a follow who sprays black paint or either operates
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a merry-go-round where the fittings are placed
on the production line and they goes through
this dip and a man takes them off at the end
and places them on a pollet and they are con
sidered. ready for shipment. That is why I say
the Foundry Cleaning and Processing Unit is clean
ing and processing "because when they grind it, most
of them are called mechanical joints and they require
no machining because they are gauged with a hand
motor and when they are finished they are painted
and put on the yard and are ready for shipment.
But my job, some of the fittings are written up
as code 8 on the IBM sheet that the company writes
these different orders up on. The ones that I paint
are called Code 8 and they specify on it special
paint.
Q What is the substance of your complaint
that you have boon discriminated against personally?
A Personally I have been discriminated against
because they wouldn't rate my job along with the
white painters and that is what I asked for.
Q Have you asked anybody to do that?
A Well, I asked — my late foreman, Mr. Charles
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Holmes, that is the man who I worked for from
1956 up until he died in 1968, he promised me that
he would rate this job and right at the peak of
that he taken sick and a now man taken over and
I told him about it and so he sent for Mr. Phelp3
and some engineer. I don't know the engineer's
name but they came dov/n and they looked at the
job and wrote up things about it and they came
back the next day and done the same thing. So
about a month passed and my foreman sent for me in the
office and he told me, he said, well, has Mr. Phelps
talked to you and I said no and he said well, the
reason why he didn't rate your job is that there
is no difference from grinding and so I wouldn't
say anything. I left and v/ent dov/n and filed this
complaint down at the ECO Office and this particular
one, he wouldn't accept it because he said that would
give the company too much evidence of what I intended
to do and that is what I intended for them to know.
And he wouldn't take this particular complaint and
he filled out one himself and I told him to add the
wages to it.
Q What particular part of the — you are in
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the foundry?
A I am in the Foundry Cleaning and Process
ing Unit 36.
Q Have you been offered any other joh there?
A I was offered one job and that is jolt
rammer.
Q Did you accept it?
A No, I didn’t because it required more physi
cal effort and it didn't pay but six cents more and
I was in the process of trying to get this job rated
which my past foreman had promised me he would.
Q Has there ever been a white person doing
the same work you are doing?
A During the operation of the valve -- I
guess you heard about the new dividion that has
become a new part of ACIPCO. Well, during the
time they first started some of the white painters
were painting larger valve bodies up at the Number
1 Machine Shop because the loading was too heavy
for me down there and they would machine so ,e of
them and they had to brush painted. But I was
doing the same thing that they were doing.
Q You don't have a comparable situation of
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a v/hite person doing all the job you are doing
and getting a different rate of pay?
A Well, they use the same type of paint on
some occasions.
Q And they get a higher rate of pay over
there?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is the difference?
A I don't know what the difference is in
the valve assembly department than what I am
getting.
Q But it is higher?
A Yes, it is higher.
Q Are you a member of the Equal Job Opportunity
Committee?
A Yes, sir.
Q How long have you been a member?
A I have been a member about six years.
Q You have heard the testimony here about
what they have done. Do you know whether that is
correct or not?
That is correct to the best of my knowledge.
You hold any office with the committee?
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A I have the office of assistant secretary.
Q How long have you held that office?
A Approximately 18 months now.
Q Have you filed a complaint yourself with
the EEOC other than the one you just mentioned?
A I have filed two complaints with the
EEOC.
Q What were they about?
A The first one concerned a job description
and the second one concerned rating of my job
but he wouldn't accept it and I went on and filed
a regular complaint.
Q The first one was an across-the-board
job description like you talked about today?
A Yes, the first one concerned some fellows
that were hired with me. Michael Lewis. He is
passed now. He came there the same year I did in
1956 and we were working together and about four
or five years later they taken him and placed him
on a production crane and he learned to drive it.
And I asked the late Mr. Charlie Holmes could I try
one of those jobs and he told me no. He didn't give
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Q Has there been any increase in the number
of whites in the last five years that have gone
— six years that have gone into the foundry
department.
A From the Foundry Cleaning and Processing
Unit ?
Q I mean hired directly into that particular
department?
A There have been quite a few hired directly
into the Foundry Cleaning and Processing Unit.
Q What jobs were they given? Were they given
any particular job?
A To the vCites that they hired?
Q Yes.
A Well* yes, C. D. Parrish, he was hired
the 1st and the 26th of *65 in the Foundry Cleaning
Unit and now he is classified as an equipment chaser
but he is my superintendent's secretary. That is
the capacity that he serves in.
Q Do you have any other examples where people,
whites have been hired in that department and passed
ovor you?
A Yes, James E. Evans v/as hired 2nd and 2nd,
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'65 and his badge number is 1A8 and he was trans
ferred over into the foundry to a mold coremaker
and his rate of pay now is $3*02.
Q Do you have any others?
A Yes, I have T. E. Crane whom is still in
the department that I am in and he was hired first
and 26th, '65 and he is an inspector and he makes
$3*66 and also in my department in lead man capa
city a fellow by the name of James Weekly who was
hired the same year that I was hired, 2nd and 22nd
’ 56 and during my time of employment there I have
seen him working in the time office and later he
was transferred from the time office to the super
intendent's secretary as an equipment chaser and
recently, about a year and a few months ago he
was transferred to my department as lead man.
Q Is it your experience that people in one
department transferred from one department to
another at ACIPCO without too much difficulty?
A What?
Q Were transferred from one department to
another at ACIPCO without much difficulty?
A ~Not for the whites.
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q Not for the whites? You mean they have
difficulty or don't have difficulty?
A They don't have difficulty transferring.
If a negro wants to transfer I mean to another
department, it is on a job that will require more
physical effort and he might as well stay where
he is.
MR. ADAMSi I think that's all.
CROSS EXAMINATION
q (By Mr. Forman) Have you since the first
of the year hid on any jobs that have been posted
there?
A I haven't bid on any job that has been
posted because I haven't taken the best.
Q You don't have the information that no
test is required?
A Yes, I can read it posted on the bulletin
board.
q You can see it doesn't require any test
to bid on the job and you know that, don't you?
A Quite clear.
But you have not bid on any job?
<x
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A No.
Q Have there been any jobs posted that carried
high rates of pay than you receive?
A Quite a few.
MR. FORMAN* That’s all.
RE DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) Would you explain why you
haven't bid on any of the jobs that have been posted?
A Well* the reason v/hy I haven't bid on jobs
that have been posted was because with all these
different types of chemicals that I use I am hoping
that when the time comes that my job will be classi
fied it would out pay the white painter because all
they do is maintenance painting and I do industrial
painting to satisfy the customer because on several
occasions down through the years when there have
been some wrong doing on the paint and the customer
writes a letter direct to the company, then it comes
back to the foreman and he calls me in and reads it
to me. Then I have to make the necessary corrections
and that is my reason for not being on the job. I
am still waiting for my job to be classified.
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. Federal Court Reporting Company
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MR. ADAMSj That's all.
MR. FORMAN* That's all.
(Witness excused. )
MR. JESSE.BLACKMAN.
called as a witness, Toeing duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows s
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) Mr. Blackman, you are
employed hy American Cast Iron Pipe Company and.
you live at 116 McCrary Street, Southwest.
A That is 617 McCrary Street, Southwest.
Q And you work in the Monocast Department?
A I am.
Q Are you also a member of the Equal Job
Opportunity Committee?
A I am.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
How long have you been a member?
From the beginning, March 1st, 1965*
You hold any office in it?
As controller.
And what is your present job at ACIPCO?
I am now in a different department. I am
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painting the spigot end in Number 3 Monocast.
Q What did you have prior to that?
A I was in Number 2 operating a paint sprayer
operator. Now, I was transferred — the man from
Number 3 had the same job title I had, Leon McMillan
and I was transferred to Number 3 and he was in turn
transferred to Number 2.
Q Now, you claim you have been discriminated
against individually as well as in the group of
plaintiff generally?
A Right.
Q What is your individual charge of discrimina'
tion?
A Well, I started working at ACIPCO IN 1955*
May and I worked in the core room until almost
ten years until I asked for -- after the company
made their statement about all jobs was open to
both colored and. white, I asked for — to be trained
as a lead man and immediately I v/as transferred to
the Casting Department in Number 2 and at the time
Mr. Frank Key v/as General Foreman, Buck McCurry
v/as lead man and I v/as put on the hardest job in
Number 2 which v/as pouring iron and from there I
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was put on the spigot end and he said my attitude
was still had and so I was shipped to the Cleaning
Shed.
Q The Cleaning Shed?
A Yes, Number 2. I have been there about
six years.
q Did you take the test?
A I did.
Q What did you make on the test?
A Well, I had two versions on it. During
the investigation of Dr. Brimm which was the first
government investigator as a result of the charges
made by this committee, he told me I made three but
the company told me I made one and we also got
another man, George A. Cooper and his superintendent
told him he made zero and he came back and told him
later that he made four. So, the company say one.
Q You have had two versions about that?
A Yes, sir.
Q The company said you made a one?
A Right.
Q And you took the test about what time?
A In 1965.
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Q You were not one of the original ones that
took the test?
A No, I was not one of the original ones
Q . Have you asked, for any other jobs other
than lead man?
A No, sir.
q Have you been offered any job other than
the one you mentioned?
A Yes, I was offered in 1970 the crane driver
job. Tom Hutto, badge number -- ho is the foreman
in Number 2, he offered me the crane — asked me
did I want to run the crane driving job and I told
him, you have a seniority policy and I tell you what
you do, you go down the list and take the oldest man
white or black and if they refuse then I will accept
it and he said no, some of them are afraid to drive
the crane and I said you have a job for me and he
said yeah and 1 said you come back after you go down
the line and if you can't get anyone then I will
accept it.
Q You thought there were senior men who
should have the job over you?
A Right.
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Q Black men?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you know whether or not they had been
offered a job?
A Well, soma had been offered the job.
Q I mean the ones that were senior to
you in this particular job?
A No, they had. not.
Q They had not?
A No.
Q You know that to be a fact?
A Now, wait now, you’ve got two cranes,
you got the Machine Shop Crane and you got the
crane that works the enamclino. 0. K., the
e’nameline there was some older than me had been
offered the job and had refused the job.
Q But did all the people older than you refuse
the job?
A No, they were not offered it.
Q They were not offered, it?
A Right.
Q Those are black people?
Right, not all of them were offered it.
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Q Is that the job you referred to?
A Right.
Q What crane was that?
A That was the Machine Shop Crane.
Q The Machine Shop Crane?
A Right.
Q Mr. Blackman, do you know of any other
negroes in your particular department who have
been requesting jobs at ACIPCO?
A Sure. Joe Foreman — this is the instruc
tions in the bidding system, Joe Foreman asked
for a job, asked Tom Hutto the lead man, badge
number 10302 and he had asked for a job and the
statement was made, and I can produce the witness,
that the only way you can get a job and the only
way you can make more money is bid. Now, there
is another negro, another black man named Judge
Cook both were doing the same job and one was
making more than the other. But now, the reason
he gave Foreman for not making the money is that
you didn’t bid.
Q When was this?
A Last year
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Q The bid system wasn't in effect last year?
A In 1971» that is what he told me. He told
me, I will watch out for you and when the bid comes
up I will tell you about it and he was going around
and telling all of them to bid on the job.
Q What time of the year was this?
A I think it was February, 1971.
Q Who is that?
A Tom Hutto, the lead man.
Q He was telling the blacks to bid on jobs?
A Right. In other words this is what
happened to Judge Cook, he was told to bid on
a job and he bid on it and in return he had a
rate increase of $3*01 in which the Foreman was
doing the same job making $2.92 and the reason that
was given was that Judge had bid on the job and that
is the reason he made the money. But the job he bid
on was the automatic grinder in Number 2 and ho was
doing the same thing that the hand grinder on the
other part, the 16 foot part.
Q And when you say, "he", you are referring
to who?
A Well, I am talking about both of them.
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Both of them were doing the same job, Judge Cook
and Joo Foreman.
Q What did you say is the discrimination
and what you told us about?
A Well, that doesn't seem right that you
are trying to get men to bid and you come up and
tell a man to bid and we have one fellow, Willie
Thomas operating a crane and Tom Hutto, this same
foreman told him to go bid and he went and bid
and he was taken out of the crane and put back
on the cement line.
Q And did that job come open?
A No, that job — they had it open but they
had too many crane drivers. Nov;, this is not all
— some of the intimidation that I had since I
have been there.
Q Tell us about that.
A Well, I worked almost — I worked all three
jobs and all three core rooms and all three cleaning
pits and it isn't as bad as it was at first, I am
only transferred’ one time a year now. In May of
1970 I was transferred to the Number 1 Cleaning
Shed and July of 1971 I was sent to the Number 3
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Cleaning Shed which I ara there now.
Q And that is because of your attitude?
A Right, attitude.
Q That you were transferred?
A Yes. I am over at the Number 3 right now
In other words I heard the Works Manager make the
statement that when you need a man in the depart
ment you would get a man with that job title.
Now, this is what happened, McMillan had that
same job title that I had over at Number 3 and
he was transferred from Number 3 to Number 2.
MR. ADAMSs That’s all, answer Mr.
Forman’s questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Forman) What job are you on now?
A I am catching the spigot end on Number 3*
Q Is that a painter's job?
A That's right.
Q And you have been paid what rate of pay?
A $3*09 now.
Q You are being paid $3*09 now?
A That’s right.
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Q And what is the job rate for a spigot end
painter?
A I don't know.
Q Don't you know that it is $2.85?
/
A Well, I was paid that before I came over
to Number 3» I was already operating — I was
already a spray operator.
Q That's right. You were a painting machine
operator?
A Right.
Q And it was on that job, Pay Group 5» you
got the rata of $3*°9?
A Under Number 2.
Q But whatever it was you got $3.09?
A So was the other man.
Q You were paid $3.09 and had the company had
a cut-back in force, did they not?
A Well, I wouldn't say that. If you had a
cut-back in force you are putting jobs up for
bid and it seems that you are having openings.
So I wouldn't say that.
Q Weren't men moved out of :umber 1 because
they cut back from Number 2 shift to a one shift
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operation?
A One shift and. a half.
Q One shift and a half?
A Yes, sir.
Q A half a shift was cut off?
A Right.
Q And you were moved over to the Number 3
and the pipe painter —
A No, I haven’t been on the pipe painting
but on the spigot end. >...
Q And you have not had any out in pay?
A No, not yet.
Q Let me ask you about this Joe Foreman and
Judge Cook? Do you have his badge number?
A No, I don't have his badge number.
Q What job is he on?
A Well, he was transferred too along with
men in that same department. He had thirteen
years of service. Ho was working the spigot end
on the cement line.
Q In what shop?
A Number 3 Cleaning Shed.
Q What about Joe Foreman?
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A Joe Foreman is still over at Number 2 on
a different shift.
Q What is he doing over there?
A Well he is doing, he is a little utility
man and he is grinding at the time.
Q Are these white or black? •
A Both black.
a What about Willie Thomas?
A He is black.
Q And Tom Hutto?
A White.
Q And what does Hutto do?
A Hutto is foreman v/ith three lead men in
the department. Two lead men.
Q What department is that?
A Number 2.
a You have seen bids being put up in your
department, have you not, for higher paying jobs
A Right.
Q And they need somebody to fill those job:
A Yes.
a And you have not bid on them?
A No.
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MR. FORMANi That's all.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) Mr. Blackman, will you
tell us why you didn't hid on those jobs?
A Well, if the foreman was trying to get me
to bid on the job or tell me that I would get the
money for bidding, no, I couldn't see it. Or, if
ho did like I told him, to go and check with the
older men before they got the bids, he didn't do
that so I can't see any use in bidding a job, just
having a job for me. But, see, this is what happened
Q ' Just a minute. You say you saw jobs come
open for bids which paid more money?
A Right.
Q And you didn't bid on those jobs?
A No, sir.
Q Tell the Court, please, sir, your reason
for not bidding on the job?
A Well, the job, one thing, required more
work, physical work.
Q How much difference in pay would these
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jobs bo?
A The only job I saw up there was the
swiping machine and it paid $3.66.
Q And you were getting what?
A I was making $3*09.
Q Why did you not bid for that job?
A One thing I was already being intimidated
and harrassed and that is the only kind of job it
V/3. S •
Q What v/as the only kind of job it was?
A This machine — this swiping machine.
Q You mean it was a job that you might be
intimidated on?
A Right, plus on this crane job you were
continuing to train men and you had men walking
around with crane operators — you see, the man
on my job now is a crane operator but he is operat
ing my job. 0. K., you have another one that is
letting down pipe and he is a crane operator so
you got a heap of jobs that people are bidding on
but it doesn't seem to have that many jobs to fill.
Q Mr. Blackman, did you ever see any jobs
come open in the high paying categories?
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A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Well, I saw one.
When was that?
It was in the Brass Foundry, $4.10.
That is out of your department?
Right.
Have you seen any any higher than that?
No.
How long have you been at ACIPGO?
Been there 17 y -ars.
MR. ADAMSj That's all.
RF-CR05S EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Forman) Do you 1 now a fellow named
B. L. Perdue?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is his job?
A Swiper machine.
Q Is he negro, black?
A Yes, sir, black.
Q Do you know whether he was employed as
far back as 1942?
A Yes, he has been there quite a while.
Q Do you know a follow named J. McMillan?
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A Yes, sir.
Q And ho was employed before you, wasn't
ho?
A Right.
Q And ho is a swiping machine operator?
A Right.
Q And he is black?
A Right.
Q And those are two operators, are they not?
A They are not the only two. You have white.
I don't know their names but you have white.
Q You can't give me the names?
A No, I don't have the names of the whites
but I can get it for you at the next Court session.
MR. FORMAN: That's all.
RE-DlRECri EXAMINATION
q (By Mr. Adams) Mr. Blackman, you say you
have been intimidated on your job, is that correct?
A Right.
Q Is this previously an all-white job, this
swiping machine?
A Yes.
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a And you didn't take it because you thought
you might be intimidated by taking the job?
A Right. Well, now, let me say something
that I almost forgot. You have a larry Hudson,
badge number 1598 that was transferred at the
time I was transferred from — to-the Number 1
Cleaning Shed and he was transferred to the
Bolt Department and he didn't like the job and
asked to be transferred back. Well, now, he was
transferred back to the Cleaning Shed.
Q Is he black or white?
A white. I went to Hutto and told him about
it and the only thing that happened was he was
moved, off the shift I was on to another shift
and I am not sure but I think he is still making
the rate.
MR. ADAMSJ That's all.
MR. FORMAN: That’s all.
(Witness excused. )
MR. RICHARD WILLIAMS,
called, as a witness, being duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows:
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DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) Mr. Williams, state your
name, please.
A . Richard Williams.
Q You live at 320 - 24th Avenue North?
A 1320, 24th Avenue North.
Q And you work at American Cast Iron Pipe
Company in what department?
A Steel Melting.
Q How long have you been employed there?
A 29 years and 3 months.
Q What job do you hold now?
A Scrap Burner.
Q What is the rate on that job?
A $3.23 an hour.
Q Did you take the test?
A No, I didn't.
Q Have you got any high school education?
A No more than the 7th grade.
Q Since you have been in the Melting Depart
ment — you have been in the Melting Department
all of this time?
A No, when I first started I started in the
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foundry on the clean-up gang under Mr. Charlie
Holmes. I worked there about two years and
then I went to the Monocast and then the Repair
Department on the night shift for about two years
and then I have been in the steel foundry ever
since.
Q Since you have been in the Melting Depart
ment, Steel Foundry, do you know of any work that
white persons with less seniority have gotten and
passed, you over?
A Oh, yes.
Q Do you know their names?
A Everyone up there has passed me but my
foreman and one of the lead men. Mr. Charlie
Gilbert and Baker and Joe -- I don’t recall his
last name.
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
Have you ever asked for any other job?
No, I haven’t.
Have you ever been offered any other job?
The only one is the one I got now.
Have you seen any jobs come open for bid?
I sure have.
They pay any more than you were making?
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A I have seen several. Two.
Q More than one, is that what you mean?
A Two jobs.
Q They came open and they paid more money
than you are malting?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you bid on them?
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q Why did you not bid on them?
A On account of my health.
Q You were not able to do the job?
A No, sir.
Q Had your health always been bad in the
29 years since you have been there?
A No, it hasn't.
Q How long has it been since your health
got bad?
A Approximately last year or the year before
last. About two years I would say.
Q And you didn't take the test or did you
say you did?
A I did not.
Q And you don't have any score?
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A No# I don't.
MR. ADAMS: That's all.
MR. FORMAN: No questions.
(Witness excused. )
MR., ISAAC... WILLIAMS,
called as a witness, being duly sworn, was examined
and. testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams ) Your name is Isaac Williams?
A Right.
Q And you live at 1065 C, North 86th Street?
A Right.
Q You are employed at American Cast Iron
Pipe Company in the F Foundry?
A Right.
Q Have you — what job are you doing at the
present time, Mr. Williams?
A It is called Service Jolter.
Q Did you take the test?
A I taken it, yes, sir.
Q What grade did you make?
A One.
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Q And have you ever asked for any better
job than you have now?
A Yes, sir.
Q When was that?
A That was in 1967.
Q What did you ask for?
A I asked for close-up job, the one I was
working opposite from.
Q Who had that job?
A A white man, David Key.
Q Was there an opening for the job or what
was your reason for asking for it?
A It had been open. A younger white guy
had been in and off the job and I had more seniority
and so I asked for the job and I asked my foreman
and he told me I didn't make enough on the t ,-st
to get the job. So we v/ere doing the same thing
but it was just the title of the job. Everything
I was doing was more physical effort on my job,
you know, closing up and that v/as physical than
the other job. 'His rate was $1.18 different from
mine and we were doing the same thing.
Q And that is in the F Foundry?
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A Right.
Q And you asked for the job and what
happened?
A He said I didn't make enough on the test.
Q And were you ever offered any job by the
company?
A Yes...
Q What job were you offered?
A I was offered the little jolt rammer which
you had to lift flasks and I got my arm cut right
here and it is not well yet.
Q When did you get it cut?
A In F Foundry in '64, October 21.
Q You were offered the job of what?
A Jolt squeezer, jolt rammer and you had to
lift those flasks and they weighed from seventy
to eighty pounds and there was a lot of strain
on me and I told them I couldn’t handle that job.
Q When were you offered that, Mr. Williams?
A I v/as offered that back in around 1968.
Q What year did you get your arm hurt?
A Octobor 21st, 1964.
Q And you said you couldn't take the jolt
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rammer’s job because it was too difficult physi
cally for you to do?
A Right, too much lifting.
Q What date did. you ask for the other job
which was opposite yours in the foundry and you
didn't get it?
A In the year 1967.
Q Has any jobs come open in your department
that pay more money than you are making now?
A Right.
Q And have you bid for them?
A I didn't bid.
Q Why didn't you bid?
A Because when I go out on the bid sheet the
guys with more seniority, their names are there and
so I didn't bid,
Q In other words you — there were people with
more seniority than you?
A Right.
MR. ADAMSs That's all, answer Mr.
Forman's questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
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Q (By Mr. Forman) What was the name of the
job you asked for in i960?
A Close-up.
Q Not operator or anything else?
A 1 bog your pardon.
MR. FORMANJ That's all.
MR. ADAMSs That's all.
(Witness excused. )
THE COURTi Next witness.
MR. EDWARD HICKS.
called as a witness, being duly sworn, was examined
and testified as followss
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) State your name, please.
A Edward Hicks.
Q Mr. Hicks, I believe you live at 1109
Maples Avenue?
A No, 2518 North 25th Street.
Q 2518 North 25th Street.
A That's right.
Q And you are employed at American Cast Iron
5 £ i &
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Pipe Company, is that right?
A I am.
Q What position do you hold at the present
time?
A At the present time I am working on a
rammer station.
Q Have you taken the test?
A No, I didn’t.
Q And have you asked for any better job at
ACIPCO than you have now?
Q What was done about your request?
A Not anything. Well, in asking for another
job — when I first was employed at ACIPCO I was
placed in the department, Monocast Number 1 on a
table loading job and I worked that job for about
a year or better and my foreman which was — is
the assistant superintendent now, Mr. Strickland,
he began starting to learn me to do other jobs and
I went from job to job and he would put me on and
he made the statement that he needed men to know
all the jobs in' this department so I began to learn
those other jobs such as operating flasks, table
loader, grinder, finishing molds, rammer station,
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working alley and. run the function of the shaker
and so forth and. in 1964 or 1965 I ask him for
operator pay loader. Then when I asked my fore
man about this operator pay loader he told mo that
he would look into it. Later on I went hack to
him and I noticed that he had put a younger white
man on the pay loader and I went ba<k to him and
asked him what did he ever find out about mo getting
the pay loader job and he told me not anything,
that they needed men for the other jobs around
and I told him I needed more money on the job so
he said well, you know how to do some of the other
jobs and he said the rammer station pays more. He
said you can go back up there and work which I had
already trained on and was doing it.
Q Mr. Hicks, did you ask for any specific
job?
A Yes, operator pay 'loader.
Q And you were not given that job, is that
right ?
A No, I wasn't.
Q And did you say you didn't have a test score?
A No, sir, I didn't have a test score.
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Q And what was the particular pay group?
A My reason for not having a tost score, I
was on during the time they got after me about
talcing the test which my lead, man was Mr. Cornelius
and I was on the ramming station when he asked me
about taking this test. So I asked him was the test
going to be on what I was doing and he said no and
I asked him would the t st do me any good and he
said I want you to go take the test and you can
get your rating. I had been asking him about the
rammer rating and he said I couldn't get the rammer's
rate unless I took the test so I told him, I say,
I refuse to take the test because you said it
wasn't on what 1 was doing and I said if it is
consistent with what I am doing in the shop I will
take the test. If not I will refuse to take it
but I want my rammer rate if you will put me back
on that so ho made the statement to me that he was
going to the office to see the superintendent
and he went into the office and seen the super
intendent and came back out and he said, Mr.
Harrison said that you cannot get the rammer rate
until you go out and take the test. So I said
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well* I refuse to take the test and he said well,
why do you want to be stubborn and I said I am
not trying to be stubborn but I don't see any
senso in taking a test when many other people
have went out and taken the test and it haven't did
any good and I said to me it don't look like any
body but white people can do any good on the test.
He said, if you go out and take the test I will
assure you a score of three or more and I said
what do you mean? And he said you just go out
there and sign your name on the paper and come
back and 1 will assure you of a three or a four.
So I said if that 's the way the thing is going,
why not get some of the other blacks out there and
I refused the rammer but during that conversation
on that date I quit ramming. I refused to ram any
more and that particular operation stayed down for
a week or more or better before they got someone
to do the job?
Q What year was this?
A In 1966.
Q All right, go ahead.
A And I went back on the job at the loading
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tables and. operating the flask car and from job
to job and then I stayed on operating the flask car
until i960 up until — off and on the flask car
because he still would use me on other higher paying
jobs and lower paying jobs but I still remained making
the same.
Then I was noticing the bid system that
came out in 1971 and I stopped my foreman and asked
him, I said. I need to see you because I see you
have some more jobs open and the pay loader job
is open and i said if they are coming open I will
bid for them and I would sure like for something
to come open that I could bid and he said well,
you know, we have jobs open on the ramming station
and I said that is what you told mo back in *65
that I couldn't get the rammer's rate so he said
you go on in the office and sign your name there
and tell them you want the rammer's rate and you
will get it and you go back up on the rammer sta
tion and start learning when your lead man wants
you to ram extra so I did. That is what happened.
This was in I believe March.
Q This year?
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A This year and I started back ramming.
Q Did you get the rate now?
A No.
Q You do not?
A No, you see what happened, they told me
I would get the rate. 0. K., I went down and
si nod. my name for the bid system and that is
not actually a system. I mean our so-called bid
system. You see, when you sign the sheet you don't
have any proof really that you bid on the job. You
just go in and sign your name on the sheet and you
don't get a copy. If anyone really wants to be
concerned, you haven't bid. You don't have any
proof whether you bid or not.
Q let mo ask you this, Mr. Hicks, are you
active with the Equal Job Opportunity Committee?
A Yes, I am.
Q Have you also been a member of the Auxiliary
Board but of the Equal Job Opportunity Committee
since 19<$5 of March.
You heard Mr. Blackman testify here — not
Board?
A No, I haven't been a member of the Auxiliary
Q
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Mr. Blackmani Mr. Baskerville testify about a
statement the President made that said that seventy
five per cent of the negroes would be eliminated?
in each department and they closed the shop down
and had to go out for a meeting. .This wasn't on
the video tape thing as the tape came out later.
But in 16b we were having these close downs for
department meetings and our work manager, Mr. Frank
Coupland made the statement that seventy-five per
cent of the negroes would be eliminated.
Q And he said this in a public meeting?
A Yes, sir, each department.
Q And did he say why that would happen?
A He said because of the activities. The way
he phrased it, 75 per cent of the negroes would be
eliminated and in a sense because of the complaints
and so forth that we had been fighting against the
company and the thing of the Board had came up —
the Board was having problems and v/e were having
problems on the Board because v/e didn't have no
representation. And during this time that Dr.
Brimm had been in and made the investigation,
A Yes, sir, in 1964 our foreman came around
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Dr. Brimm made the statement in a meeting, Dr.
Brimm said that everything was all right — was
satisfactory in the company and. the company was
going — it was operating in good standing and
it wasn't — there would be no more investigators
corning in. The company wouldn't have no more
federal investigators come in and investigate.
Q Do you know whether or not Dr. Brimm
recommended tests for negroes as — the same
as whites?
A Yes, he did Initiate that testing.
Q And who is "he"? Bo you know who Dr. Brimm
is?
A Yes, sir, he was a representative from the
President's Committee.
Q Was he with the Office of the Federal Contract
Compliance?
A Yes, sir, ho was with the Federal Contract
Compliance.
HR. ADAMSi That's all, answer Mr.
Forman's questions.
CKOS S...F XAHI NAT 10 N
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Q (By Mr. Forman) You bid on the rammer job
earlier this year?
A Yes, sir, I put my name down on the sheet.
Q And you got it, didn’t you?
A Yes, but I haven't got paid.
Q You got a raise in pay, did you not?
A I got an eight cent raise.
Q And since then there has been a freeze by
the President of the United States on any further
increases?
A I have been doing this particular ramming
job for a period of eight or nine years and I feel
like I should have gotten paid.
Q You do the job of flask transfer?
A Yes,
Q When were you doing that?
A 1 bid the job of flask transfer about four
and a half years ago.
Q When?
A From — off and on I have bid the jobs off
and on, no particular job. But during a long period
of time I have had to stay on one job for a period
of time. But I have bid all jobs down there almost
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in Monocast Number 1. Also I was laid off in
196i» I did. work in different jobs in the foundry.
Q Have you ever asked to see the bid sheets?
A On a job?
Q Yes.
A No, they put them up on the board, the jobs
that they do place up there. Some jobs don’t go
up for bid.
Q What job is that?
A Well, when the bid system first came out
they placed — they placed one man on the opposite
shift from us on the side tram which we call — it
is not a production tram but a tram that is used for
cleaning Jut flasks and taking scrap pipe out.
Q And who was that?
A One of the young boys.
Q What is his name?
A I don't know his name. later that job had
been bid but an older black man bid on it.
Q And who is he?
A I think his name was Fillmore Scott.
Q And you say the pay loader job has come
open and been put up for bids but you have not
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bid on it because older men have bid on it?
A The pay loader job?
Q Yes.
A It has been open for bid and older men
bid on it.
Q And you have not bid on it because of that
reason?
A That*s right.
MR. FORMANi I believe that's all.
MR. ADAMSs No more questions.
(Witness excused. )
THE COURT; Next witness.
MR. ALFRED GIDDENS.
called, as a witness, being duly sworn, v/as examined
and testified as follows s
DIRECT. EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) Mr. Giddens, what is your
name?
A Alfred Giddens.
Q And you are employed by the American Cast
Iron Pipe Company?
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A Yes, sir.
Q How long have you been employed there?
A 19 years, 2 months and. k days.
Q And have you taken the test?
A No, sir.
Q And have you been offered a job which pre
viously had been a white job?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what job was that?
A The job I am presently on, pipe reamer which
is the inside grinder.
Q Do you have that job now?
A Yes, sir.
Q When did you got the job?
A September 3°» two years ago.
Q Before you got the job what v/as the job
rate for that job?
A I cannot say v/hat the job rate were but I
v/as told by our then Chairman of the Auxiliary
Board that that job had been cut.
Q The previously segregated Auxiliary Board,
is that right?
A Yes, sir.
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Q And not the Equal Job Opportunity Committee?
A No, sir, the Auxiliary Board.
Q It was in existence at that time?
A Yes, sir.
Q What does the job pay now?
A $3*53 por hour.
Q And that is the job you are on at tho pre
sent time?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you tried to get any other job prior
to this?
A Yes, sir.
Q What job?
A Pipe Inspector job.
Q Have you got a high school education?
A No, I am a twelfth grade scholar.
Q You didn't finish high school?
A No, sir.
Q Bid you go through the twelfth grade?
A No, sir, I was in the twelfth grade when
I quit.
Q Why did you not take the test?
A I had been at ACIPCO for 16 years then
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and they had never gave roe nothing and I didn't
think ACIPCO was going to give me anything then.
I didn't see no sense in me taking that test what
soever. My foreman at that time — I was told by my lead
rnan that if you take this test your foreman will have
to 0. K. it and he will have to 0.' K. everything
and I said well, they have never 0. K.'ed anything
for mo in 16 years and I don't think he will 0. K.
anything for me now.
Q You knew about other blacks who had taken
the test?
A Yes, sir, and they went up there and made zero.
Q Do you know that they made zero?
A Yes, sir, they told me.
Q Do you know any whites that have been in
your department younger than you that have gone
on to better jobs?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who are they?
A Roy Gaffey. He was doing the same job I
was doing and he is now a lead man up in the shop.
And there was Dan Tidwell who came out of the foundry
to the monocast and he was made a lead man and trans-
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ferred to the rammer station as a lead man.
Q You have any others?
A There is Jerry, I don't knov? the last part of his
name hut he was transferred to the Inspection Depart
ment .
Q Did you help train any of these men in
these better jobs?
A I help train Larry Berry and Dan Tidwell,
I didn't help train him. Someone else did that.
Q Do you have any other instances of discrimina
tion that you claim individually?
A Yes, sir, what I couldn't understand about
the American Cast Iron pipe Company was this. X
have bean at that place then 16 years and there
was not a job in that pipe shop that I could not
do and I have seen them bring young whites in and
give them one year training and the next thing you
knov; they are going up with the flask lining depart
ment and I went to the foreman and — to the Chair
man then and I asked him about what could be did
about it and he said as far as he ’mowed nothing
could be did about it because that was the American
Cast Iron Pipe Company system. And he in turn sent
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me back to my foreman to ask him to give me a
better job and that is when I asked for the pipe
inspector job and my foreman told me I had to take
the test and I asked him was the test consisted of
the pipe inspector's job and ho told me no, it was
consisted on how fast you can think and how fast
you can move around and I in turn told him I have
been working for you ever since I have been here
and you know what I can do. You know v/hether I am
capable of doing any job and the argument got heated
and he walked away and I shook my head and walked
away and that was all.
Then later when they transferred them from
one department to another that is when I began to
move. The foreman took me off of the pickling
and put me on the wheel abrader and from the
wheel abrader to the spigot end and then up front
from where I am now and I have been there for two
years.
MR. ADAMS* Answer Mr. Forman's
questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
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Q (By Mr. Forman) You arc a grinding sta
tion operator of Station 1, 2 or 3?
A I am an inside grinder on Number 3. I
don't know what it is classified.
Q What does your work consist of?
A Inside grinding, pipe reaming.
Q How do you do it?
A It is automatic.
Q You punch a button on a panel?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you have to know which button to punch?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the.machine Is all automatic?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you have been on that since 1969 and
you are on the rate, are you not, for the job?
A Pardon?
Q You are getting $3.53?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that is the rate for the job, $3.53?
A Yes, sir-.
MR. FORMAN j That's all.
MR. ADAMS: No further questions.
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Your Honor, that is all the witnesses
we have at the present time.
THE COURT! All right. Now, Oscar,
you are going to have your experts here and arrange
for them for the 26th?
MR. ADAMS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT! All right, we will recess
this trial until 9:00 o ’clock, Tuesday, October 26th.
(Court was in recess from
4:26 P. M., October 12,
1971 until 9:00 A. M.,
October 26th, 1971* )
Federal Court Reporting Company
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OCTOBER 26, 1971 9*00 A. M.
THE COURT: The trial of the case of
Pettway and others against the American Cast Iron
Pipe Company was continued until this morning.
We are ready to proceed in the Pettway case.
MR. ADAMS: Your Honor, I would like
to call the attention of the Court to the fact
that one of our counsel, associate counsel, Mr.
Belton will be here later on today but he couldn't
get here because of the fog.
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THE COURT: That is all right.
MR. ADAMS: I would call Mr. Rigassio.
JAMES L. RIGASSIO.
being first duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) Would you state your name,
please, sir?
A Yes. My name is James L. Rigassio. That
is spelled R-i-g-a-s-s-i-o.
Q Mr. Rigassio, where do you live?
A I live in Summit, New Jersey, which is
a suburb of Newark, New Jersey, and I work in
Newark.
Q Are you working with a firm?
A Yes, I am. I am a member of the firm of
Metz'ler, that is M-e-t-z-l-e-r, Associates. It
is a firm of management consultants with head
quarters in Newark, New Jersey.
I am also a member of the faculty of
Newark College of Engineering where I am a Pro
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fessor in Industrial Engineering and the Chairman
of the Department of Industrial and Management
Engineering.
Q Mr. Rigassio, would you tell the Court
what your educational "background is?
A Yes, sir. I received a Bachelor of
Science and Mechanical Engineering from Newark
College of Engineering, a Master of Science in
Mechanical Engineering from Yale University, and
I am currently working on my Doctorate in Industrial
Engineering at Newark University.
Q Do you "belong to any professional associa
tions, Mr. Rigassio?
A Yes. I am a senior member of the American
Institute of Industrial Engineers. I am a senior
member of the American Society of Mechanical
Engineers. I am a member of the Industrial
Relations Research Association. And I am a
Licensed Professional .Engineer.
Q I believe you said that you were professor
and department chairman in the Industrial Manage
ment Engineering at Newark College of Engineering?
That is correct. Newark College of
S i A_
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Engineering is one of the largest colleges in
terms of number of graduates each year in engineer
ing. In industrial engineering, our position in
the United States ranges anywhere from three to
approximately six from the top in terms of number
of industrial engineers graduated. We have one of
the largest in the country.
Q Mr. Rigassio, do you consult with companies
with reference to Industrial problems?
A Yes, I do. Prior to entry into education,
I myself was a full-time member of a large national
organization where I was chief engineer and did
work in designing plants, production processes,
developing lines of progression for manufacturing
operations and so forth.
Since that time, and while associated v/ith
Metzler Associates, I do consulting for firms in
many different areas, metal trades, chemicals,
electronics, transportation, where my job is to
design and install job evaluation plans, set up
lines of progression, assist in the development
of testing procedures for employees, develop time
standards and wage and central plans, and assist
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in general manufacturing type of problems.
Q Have you actually worked in industry
itself, Mr. Rigassio?
A . I have worked in a number of industries.
However, I have never worked in a steel mill.
However, I have done consulting work that has
brought me into steel mills.
Q All right. Have you had the occasion to
testify as an industrial engineer in any cases
called Title 7 cases?
A Yos. In the case of Title 7, I did testify
earlier this year in Houston, Texas, in tho case
involving Armco Steel. I am currently working on
a case and expect to testify on my findings in
Lone Star, Texas, in the case against the Lone
Star Steel Company.
MR. ADAMS: I would like to offer Mr.
Rigassio as an expert in industrial engineering
and manufacturing management.
THE COURT: The Court recognizes his
qualifications.
Q Mr. Rigassio, have you seen tho defendant's
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plant American Cast Iron Pipe Company hero in
Birmingham?
A Yes, sir, I have. On September 27th,
1971 I did visit the plant here in Birmingham
at which time I had an opportunity to see first
hand a number of jobs in the plant. And I
also had the opportunity to speak to a number
of people who were employees in the plant, and
also a few of the members of the management.
Q How much time did you spend in the plant
that particular day?
A I would say the better part of the day
shift or day- turn. And I would estimate some
six hours.
Q All right. Did you have anyone with you
at that time?
A Yes, I did.
Q Who was associated with you?
A Yes, I did. In order to expand the
scope of our coverage during that period of
time, I had with me a Mr. Raymond CassMta ><ho
is also a graduate industria l <nv !n«*rr ">.o vov\a
with the firm of Mot/,lor Anaooia I eu, and wu;> \\
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assistant, and who is my assistant on that job.
Q And were you in the company of some other
persons, or do you recall whether or not Mr.
Copeland —
A Oh, I believe we had the opportunity of
having Mr. Copeland with us on that tour. And
also I believe Mr. Foreman. I believe also we
had a chance to talk to a number of employees
who were in the plant.
Q I was also p>resent.
A You were there, yes, sir.
Q Mr. Rigassio, have you had the opportunity
to look at job descriptions whiwh I have furnished
you which the plant has recently made up of their
operations?
A Yes, sir. There were a number of documents
that were supplied me, and I did go evor those.
These were the job descriptions have* v;\\ 'tiy
been prepared by the company. \ also *\»v Unvod
the company's employee menu In, \ d\ A \v\ low a
number of linen of pm/ i.mnlnu that won pvv^v^d
by the company* i itlnu fp at a \\ < hv;1 sv\
the omploymuj 1n vnrloun dn|Hii l!||)npI n and
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listed by number in each job. And I also had
an opportunity to review the depositions that were
taken, primarily the one most recently taken of
Mr. Copeland.
Q And did you look at the materials, I
believe you alluded to them, and are called
Defendant's Answers to Plaintiff's Second
Interrogatories, they come in two parts.
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q And these are when you refer to the fact
that they were listed are part of the response.
A That was part of the response, yes, sir.
Q Hr. Rigassio, first of all, we are talking
about the job evaluations which you have looked
at of the company which were supplied as a part
of an exhibit in this case?
A Yes.
Q Do you have any comment you want to make
on those as an industrial engineer?
A /es, sir, I do have. And I wish to say
in observing the recently installed company plan,
it was my intention to review what the company
was doing, and to decide upon a basis of my
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experience and also my observations at the plant
of what the company was currently doing is
in keeping with what we would normally expect
to find in modern industry.
And secondly, whether the actions of the
company in installing these management practices
would lead to expanding the opportunity for
employees to the extent that they should be,
and as is practiced in other industries. And
I did make this evaluation, and I have here
documents and testimony which I would like to
give in regard to that.
Q Yes. Would you do so?
A Yes, sir.
In the case of the job description plan
it was my finding that the practices that the
company has recently installed fall short of what
I feel should be expected.
For example, in the write-up of the job
descriptions I did not find any evidence of an
evaluation procedure such as is normally found
in this industry or in other industries. What
I mean by this is that each general description
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of the job was not coupled with a detailed
analysis of the skills, of the experience
requirements, the responsibility requirements,
the working conditions — and this includes
physical demands — and the hazards to which
people are exposed.
Now this type of evaluation is very
common in the steel industry and in other
Industries, and is really about the only basis
for coming up with an objective analysis of the
job.
I did find, that had this evaluation
procedure been installed there probably would
not have been some of the differences between
jobs that appear to me.
For example, in looking at the jobs in
Monocast, there are a number of jobs there.
I looked at some which were called Rammer Hoist
Operator Number 1. Another one was Rammer A
Number 1 and Rammer B Number 1, and Rammer Number
2. Nov/, I did notice on the analysis of the jobs
that Rammer Number 2 job in different locations
was rated lower than any of the other jo -3 that
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I had previously noted and observed in Number
1 Monoeast, and in fact required the person
operating that job to assume some of the same
skills and responsibilities, and required some
of the same experiences that I noted in the
Rammer Hoist Operator which is in the Pay Group
8 as opposed to a 5 in ihe Rammer Number 2\
and also the Rammer A which is Pay Group 7; and
compared to Rammer Number 2 Pay Group 5» There
were those similarities but this was not reflected
in the Fay Group of Rammer Number 2. Phis Rammer
Number 2 job was rated 5 which is lower than
the other three jobs in the other part of the
plant#
I feel that a job evaluation plan similar
to the one which is common in the steel industry
would have brought these differences to light.
There are other jobs where I noted
similar discrepancies. For example, I looked
at some higher skilled jobs, jobs which are
identified by the title "Machinist and Core
Molder, or Mold'er Core Maker. " I noted that
these two jobs were rated the same in that both
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were rated as Pay Group 12, yet, it is common
in the steel industry that the machinist job
would, bo a much higher skilled job than a core
maker. And this was evident from the job
description that was provided me, in that
for example a machinist would be expected to
operate lathes, boring machines, grinders, milling
machines, turret lathes, shapers, cores, cranes,
belt sanders, drill presses and such machines
and machine attachments.
A (Continued t) And it is typical in the
seel industry as well as in other metal trade
industries that these jobs are of higher classi
fication.
It was my conclusion that a job evaluation
plan would have shown that the machinists' jobs
should bo rated higher than the core maker job.
This is also consistent with the publications of
the United Steel Workers of America and the coor
dinating steel companies in the steel industry,
which shows in a document that has been issued
by them dated January 1 , 1963, that the machinists'
job would be normally rated at a level eighteen
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an compared to a core maker job which would be
normally rated at a level twelve, which is what
the company has rated both of these.
Q Mr. Rigassio, would you tell the Court just
how the evaluation plan of the — in the stool
industry works and how you would suggest that that
be used in connection with the evaluation of jobs
at ACIPCO?
A Yes, sir. I would like to do this. Before
hand, however, I have prepared for the convenience of
the Court copies of the different job descriptions
which I have just cited and a copy of the pertinent
sections of the job description and classification
manual published by the coordinating committee of
the steel companies. Now, while some I am sorry.
MR. ADAMSj Your Honor, that information
is already in evidence, but in order to highlight
it we have just pulled — he had these documents
on his own, and the descriptions of various material.
I would like to just pull that out for the Court's
inspection and also offer the steel —
A Right. Take that.t
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MR. ADAMSt — descriptions —
A There are three copies of each.
MR. ADAMS* As a part of his testimony.
Do you have any objections?
MR. FORMAN* Well* I don’t think it’s
material or relevant, but, of course, as I under
stand the ruling of the Court he will accept the
testimony and the evidence and give i!; what con
sideration he thinks is necessary.
MR. ADAMS: All right.
Would you explain what you mean by rating
according to the sttel rate?
A Yes, sir. In all job evaluation plans,
regardless of whether they are for metal trades,
the steel industry, the electrical trades, the
chemical workers, basically five factors which
are held to be important in every job are rated.
These factors are experience which is
required for the job, the skill which is required
of the man to perform the job, the responsibilities
which the man must take upon himself to coperly
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perform the job, the working conditions under
which the man works, including such things as
the required physical effort on his part, and the
hazards to which he is exposed.
In the steel plant, these five factors
are expanded. For example, in experience, the
steel plan separates that experience which a man
brings to his job which he has gained elsewhere
and separates this from experience that he is
expected to get on the job. It is also :ue that
in the responsibility factor the steel plan will
separate responsibility for equipment as opposed
to responsibility for safety.
In the steel plan, therefore, these five
beoac factors which are inherent in any good,
sound .loo evaluation plan is expanded to twelve.
And I have here a sheet which is used by the firm
of iatzler Associates when doing job classifica
tion analysis for plants that have the basically
coordinated steel company's plan in effect, a
sheet which defines these twelve factors.
These factors are as followsi Pre-employ-
nont training, employment training and experience,
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mental skill* manual skill, responsibility for
material, responsibility for tools and equipment,
responsibility for operations, responsibility
for safety of others, mental effort, physical
effort, surroundings, which is your working
conditions factor, and your hazards. And I have
here copies of these which I would offer.
MR. ADAMS: Your Honor, I would like to
offer this as an exhibit.
IKS GOUTY : All right.
IKS BAILIFF: It will be marked
Plaintiffs 28.
A Tes, sir. I see no evidence that or
y.ie job description shoots. Humber two* in as! ;
this question of people including Mr, Copeland X
understand that tho practice of the company
been to speak to other companion to try U pot
3ome idea of what other oomp.nl,, m «« U w »
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procedure establish base rates.
It is obvious to me from the jobs that I
have seen that do not measure in terms of classi
fication that a job evaluation plan which recognises
the on-site conditions as they actually arc would
be better* and I have not seen this in any form in
any of the company documents that were submitted
to me.
Q This job that you refer to which was
machinists, which was twelve —
A That is correct.
Q — and I think you said that it — in
the steel industry it is rated as eighteen?
A Yes. Normally it is rated as eighteen
in the steel industry. And the tool and die maker
is normally higher than that. Now, this does not
mean that in every steel plant a machinist's job
would be an eighteen. However, it does point out
that there is a significant difference between the
core maker, which is normally an eighteen. There
fore, I would have xpected to see in the plant —
Birmingham plant of the American Cast Iron Pipe
Company a separation In classification between the
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core maker job and the machinist job? and, if the
machinist was not in fact rated at eighteen, I
would have expected to see it somewhere, say,
seventeen. But there should have been a separation
which I did not observe.
Q Mr. Rigassio, from looking at the docu
ments, the answers to Plaintiff’s interrogatories,
is the machinist job that you are referring to
basically an all white job?
A Yes, sir. It is. And the machinist job
that I am referring to is not the production
machinist’s job but rather the machinist's job
which I understand we would find in the Mo. 1
Machine Shop, which is an al! around machine
shop.
Q Would you go ahead and testify as to wh&t
you were -—
A Yes, sir. I have here also, in order to
show you how this form would be used, rearinto fro-
again the job description and classification 1 \ ■ -d.
published January 1, 1963. to which I hnvo
reference before. In this oooa, the
factors that arc listed on thin form ,, ,.v,,,,,
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and also the different levels are shown.
Q Is that the same document that we have
given to the Court?
A It is the same source hut different pages,
to show the description of the factors. And I
would like to introduce these in evidence.
Q Yes. But what pages are you referring
to?
A I am referring to, of that document, pages
IA through 2?.
MR. ADAMS: Does the Court have that?
THE COURT: No, I do not have that.
MR. ADAMS: I would like to offer that
as a plaintiff's exhibit.
THE BAILIFF: 29.
Q This is an extra copy?
A That is your3.
Q Okay. Would you go ahead?
A Yes, sir. On page Ik, we note that in
that document is explained what is meant by pre
employment training, and it refers to the mentality
required to absorb training and exercise judgment
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for the satisfactory performance of the job.
And, in describing this, the factor is
broken down into three levels or grades, and these
are coded A, B and C so that the evaluator would
then define — decide in looking at the people
working with him just ,-hich level would apply.
For example, if the job merely required the
carrying out of simple verbal or simple written
instructions necessary to perfc m a repetitive
manual task or a closely supervised non-repatitive
task, then code A 'would be the designation given
to that job for that particular fact in which
case it would be considered to be basic to the entry
job, and it is so noted on here that the numerical
classification associated with this factor is base,
which means that it is basic to the entry job.
However, if the job did require, for example,
performance of work of a non-repetitive or semi-
repetitive nature where judgment is required to
obtain results, then that would — that would be
coded B, in which case there would be a numerical
factor added to the job, in this case .3*
Similarly, going on to the next higher
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classification in this same factor, if it was
required that this man make general repairs to
equipment involving the knowledge of mechanical
or electrical principles, then the pre-employment
training factor would bo coded C, in which case
the numerical classification assigned to that job
would be 1.
Now, what happens is the evaluator would
go through each factor. The next one, for example,
being employment training and experience. And
again, if the job would require only up to two
months for proficiency, this factor would be
coded A, in which case this is considered to be
required of the basic entry job. On the other hand,
if the m nths required to become proficient were
somewhere in the area of three to six, this would be
ceded ~, and the numerical factor would be .A.
And he would continue this way through the mental
skills, the manual skills, responsibility factors
and so forth.
What he would do finally then is add up
all of the factors in the column way over on the
right-hand side of the form which I introduced,
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and then adding up these factors he would get
a number. Nov;* if the number were somewhere
near 5* maybe it was ty.8 or R.9 or 5*1* then
he would say this is a 5 level job. If the number
is near 6, he would say it's a 6 level job, and
conversely all the way up.
Now, these levels would be used to determine
pay rate so that the company might have for each
level job as it does now have a pay rate in dollars
assigned to each job level which is coded by a
number 2, 3, 4, 5* 6 and so forth.
Now, this is the basic United States Steel
plan and it is the one that is used throughout the
steel industry and it is a way to get an on-the-
site evaluation. However, there is another require
ment that I must point out of this plan. I did
not observe from the information that I had in
these documents that the employees themselves
participated in this. It is quite necessary in any
job evaluation plan if the plan is to be truly
successful that the employees have a.n opportunity
to participate and that there also be some procedure,
regardless of how this procedure is structured,
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but that there be some procedure wherein apparent
errors or differences as I had pointed out here on
some cf these other jobs could be brought to light
and these differences could be corrected.
These differences night come as a result
of normal job service. They might come as a
result of new equipment or materials that are
described in to a production process. It might
be because an entirely new job is set up, or,
it might be that an evaluation was not made
properly to begin with and now needs to be looked
at again.
o I would say in the case of the job
description and evaluation plan what is needed
is an objective evaluation system similar to
what is currently used in the steel industry
applied here on site.
And Number 2: A procedure for getting
employee participation in this, meaningful
participation in this, and a procedure for
correcting errors if in fact these errors do
exist.
Q Mr. Rigassio, I will ask you whether or
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not ir. the -way that tbs present job was described
or handled insofar as descriptions are concerned,
Is It possible for the co-pary to be arbitrary
in the description that they make?
A Yes, sir. It is possible to do that.
Because the job descriptions are rather general.
In some cases where the descriptions look detailed
and specific, the details usually refer to minor
aspects of the job. And so it is not possible
to really single out the highest skills and
responsibilities. As a result, the action of
the company could be erroneous and might possibly
also be arbitrary.
Q I see. Are you familiar with the fact
from your information that there is no union
at the company?
A I understand this to be the ca3e.
Q Now, was there any other comment you
wanted to make on the evaluations of jobs at
this point before we move on?
A I believe those are the comments I would
like to make.
Q Now, we arc talking about the rate
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progression schedules. Would you care to comment
on that? You have had that information before
you?
A Yes, sir. And I believe that the rate pro
gression schedule was already in the note I have
seen in my copy entered into as an exhibit.
Q I believe it is attached to the Plaintiff's
deposition of Mr. Copeland, I think. Judge,
i think that is Plaintiff's Exhibit 6 attached
to the deposition of Mr. Copeland. Yes, sir.
A Yes. Cn the rate progression schedule
I have looked this over and I have made a
comparison of the progression schedule as was
shown me with the time periods required by
different jobs for qualification and effective
performance. And I find here a number of things
that do concern me as a management consultant.
I find for example that the schedule of rate
progression is far too long compared to the
jobs that they refer to.
For example, if we were to look at a job
entitled Hydrostatic Tester, and there is one at
this plant, and if we were to look at this job
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as it was evaluated under the United States
Steel plan, we would find that the employment
training and experience factor, the on-the-job
experience, you might say, which is factor number
two, is listed as throe to six months. In the
steel plan this is a Level 5 job. According to
my observation of the rate progression schedule,
the rate progression for obtaining the rate of
this job would require for a pay group 5 job
24 months of employment. On another job, utility
man, this is a level 3 job, in the United States
Steel plan, the employment training and experience
is up to two months. This gives him merely a base
or entry level factor in this case. This is a 3
level job. In the rate progression schedule given
me I did notice that it would require 12 months
employment for the man to reach the level of that
job. A cut-off machine operator which is normally
rated under the steel plan as a 9 requires seven
to twelve months employment training. Conversely
in the rate progression schedule given me, I note
it would require 36 months of employment.
Another job, a foundry craneman, this
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is an 8 job, again 7 to 12 months, and again
conversely would require a training of 42 months
of employment.
I cite one of the jobs in the company,
a production machinist, this is a 9 level job.
On the job progression rate schedule given me
it shows that a man would obtain the rate at the
end of 48 months of employment, when I read on
the job description I read that the employment
training and experience for that job is two
months. And there are other jobs, hydrant
assembly job, for example, which is 6 group,
again a job according to the rate progression
schedule in which a man would obtain his rate
at the end of 48 months employment. This job
is so written that the prerequisite skills are
simple "must be able to meet physical require
ments and must be able to read and write", and
the expected learning time is four months. So
I find here there is a very v/ide difference between
what the company feels — and I agree with these
periods of time shown here such as is shown
as for four months to be a hydrant assemblyman,
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I think that is reasonable. And yet the rate
progression schedule keeps the man from obtain
ing the rate as it is required at the level of job
performance. Nov/, it is true, now it is recommended
that the company could and would recommend
as initiated by the department head or the
plant manager, or the works manager, or the
employment manager, would recommend increases
above this at the rates shown than thos shown
in the rate schedule in cases of special ability
and aptitude or past experience. But again this
places for the decision to accelerate movement
strictly in the hands of management alone.
And Number 2, it allows for a degree of
subjectivity particularly as we are talking about
terms such as special ability, aptitude or
past experience, which may or may not have any
direct relation to the true ability of a man
to perform that particular job, and at that
particular location under those particular con
ditions.
And so that I find that this great
progression schedule is something I could not
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recommend as being a good management practice
and a fair one.
Q Mr. Rigassio, are you saying to the Court
that the time for the learning of the job should
be considered as being the time for a person
to reach the rate of progression maximum?
A Normally if a man passes through the period
of time of training and. ho is allowed to retain
that job by virtue of the fact that he is per
forming that normally he receives the base rate
of the job. So to answer your question, yes,
I believe that the man should reach the .y rate
of that job for which the job is evaluated
when he has completed the job. Or if is in fact
in most cases when ho actually begins the job
or is performing the job, and I think it would
be incumbent upon the management of the firm
to evaluate this man and either allow him to
continue on the job at the job rate he is
performing or else deny him further continuation
in that job if in fact the man cannot perform.
This is normally what is done.
Q Do you see any possibility with the clause
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In the understanding of the company that they
could accelerate a man at their discretion
based on these factors which are subjected to
the possibility of arbitrary use of such clause?
A I believe it could, yes. Because the
factors are somewhat subjective. • They are also
applied or not applied apparently completely
at the discretion of the management.
Q Mr. Rigassio, you are familiar with the
documents, do you know whether or not there
seem to be any negroes In certain departments
and whites in other departments from the material
that was furnished you?
A Yes. In a number of cases I have observed
this. There are a number of departments where
apparently for some reason or other the job level
9 and above positions appear to be occupied
completely by whites. And in looking at this
I did not see from the standpoint of relation
ship of skills that this line of demarcation would
be easy to define, or certainly In my own mind
easy to substantiate. In some cases there appear
to bo obvious imbalances. And I mention the
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in the understanding of the company that they
could accelerate a man at their discretion
based on these factors which are subjected to
the possibility of arbitrary use of such clause?
A I believe it could, yes. Because the
factors are somewhat subjective. • They are also
applied or not applied apparently completely
at the discretion of the management.
Q Mr. Rigassio, you are familiar with the
documents, do you know whether or not there
seem to be any negroes in certain departments
and whites in other departments from the material
that was furnished you?
A Yes. In a number of cases I have observed
this. There are a number of departments where
apparently for some reason or other the job level
9 and. above positions appear to bo occupied
completely by whites. And in looking at this
I did not see from the standpoint of relation
ship of skills that this line of demarcation would
be easy to define, or certainly in my own mind
easy to substantiate. In some cases there appear
to bo obvious imbalances. And I mention the
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machine shop in which I believe in the production
machine department there seems to be 121 jobs
all of which were occupied by whites. And yet
in looking at some of these jobs I didn’t see
that the skill and experience requirements was
such that people could not move into these jobs
from other jobs which were held by blacks.
Q The break-off from 8 to the other levels
above 8, is it your opinion that high school
education is required in order to take those type
jobs, from your analysis of the descriptions,
Mr. Rigassio?
A No. Frankly, I feel that in many jobs
an on-the-job type of experience is many times
more productive, more germane and more meaningful
than some of the experiences a man would receive
in school, in high school. And this I am saying
in all honesty and recognizing the fact that I
also am an educator. But it appears to me that
in many of these jobs on-the-job experience is
most conducive -to persons learning how to handle
the job.
In some cases, some skills might be best
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learned in school. However, it is not always
the case that some of these skills would he in
evidence in all plant jobs. I might say that
perhaps as a general rule some of the skills that
would normally be expected in office type of positions
might be better gained through a high school educa
tion as opposed to someone who works let us say
in a foundry.
Q Do you have an example of a 30b — line
job that you think certainly could be filled
without a high school education?
A Well, in just going through some of those,
looking at some of the core making jobs, for
example, here is one in the Melting Department,
a crane operator. In the Pipe Department, I notice
here that there are production welders. In the
Machine Shop, production machinists. In most of
these jobs an ability to read and write and to
understand written and verbal instructions and
then some familiarity with the machine operated —
to be operated is v/hat is required.
I observed in many cases that some of the
tolerances in these production machine jobs are
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usually not that great, plus or minus a 32nd of
an inch, for example. The familiarity with this
type of equipment is not something you would
normally learn in high school. It is something
that you would learn on the job.
Going further, in the Electrical Department,
for example, there are jobs involving motor and
armature winding. In the Construction Department,
there are carpenters, painters, roofers. These
are craft type jobs, but they are learned from
progression through doing. The Shipping Department,
crane operators, a fork lift operator. These are
the type of jobs. We could go on.
Q All right. Mr. Rigassio, by looking at
the rate of progression schedule in its length and
according to your statement of being too long, does
that in any way inure to the benefit of the company?
A I would say it' could. I would say that
it is a way of maintaining a progression of pay
that could possibly be lower than the rate of
pay that is really called for the job. In other
words, that tho person could well perform — and
this could be possible. I do not have the data in
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front of me to show anything like that, "but
it could very well he possible that a person could
well perform a job and yet not be receiving the
base rate of that job.
Q All right. Have you examined the apprentice
program, Mr. Rigassio, of the company?
A Yes, I have. I did evaluate the apprentice
program, and I find that it is a program typical
of the type that is found in the steel industries,
and that the program is available to people who
are 25 years old maximum with the possible excep
tion that they could be as old as 29 if they
had military service.
Now, in looking at the apprenticeship
program, I do feel that there are two things that
I would like to comment about which I would like
to suggest could improve the program. First of all,
I do not believe that a 25 year age limit is really
practical. It is true that many companies have
a 25 year age limit, but it is also true that
many companies have older ago limits. For example,
the American Zinc has an apprentice program which
would allow people to enter the program up to age
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35 years, and this is as rocent as July — or as
recent as now, because the 35 year age limit is
for people who will reach 35 years as of July 1,
1972. So it is a current type of program.
I also believe that is possible for the
company to consider and give credit for on-the-job
experience beyond the approximate 10 to 12# of the
training program that it now gives in its applying
the maximum of a thousand hours.
If I might refer to the Department of
labor’s Bureau of Apprentic hip and Training —
Q Do you have an extra copy of that?
A Yes, I do. There are three copies here.
This gives some criteria for the training
program.
MR. ADAMSj I would like to offer that.
THE BAILIFF* Exhibit 30.
A In this regard, I do feel that the company
should consider a higher age limit; that this
consideration is practical, and that it is not
without precedent in other industrial areas, even
currently, and that it should also onsider an
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expanded program of credit for people who have had
experience that could he well used in an appren
ticeship program.
With the often — with reference to the
often expressed concern that older people don't
study, I would like to point out that this has
not been my experience. And I might even city,
if reference to the engineering student might
be used here, that I have found that in our
evening program, which is an eight year program
in which the students are usually students who
ave completed their military service and who
have families and who must go to school three
nights a week at least, sometimes four, and who
must spend the other nights studying, the perform
ance of these students who are older is far superior
to the normal performance that we would expect with
the daytime students who are younger and who only
study and do not work. So I would like to suggest
these changes in the apprenticeship program, and
I think they would be of benefit to both company
and employee.
Q The length of the apprentice program is
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set at 8,000 hours. Do you have any comment to
make on that, Mr. Rigasslo?
A Yes, I do. Apprenticeship programs
tend to be long programs. In my opinion,
exceedingly 1 ng. The expectation of a three
to four to five year period of indenture under
the normal type of program is in many cases too
long. And, of course, this has been proven in
times of national emergency. Might we cite the
situations during World. War II and during the
Korean Conflict when the program v/as very greatly
shortened and compressed and. movement through the
program was greatly accelerated. I believe this
could also be done. I firmly believe that the
normal length of time for apprenticeship is in
my opinion too long.
q Did you have any further comment on the
apprenticeship program?
A No, sir.
Q Mow we will ;o to the lines of progression.
You have been given the defendant's exhibit deal
ing with lines of progression. This Is a smaller
version of it (Indicating.).
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A Oh, this would be welcomed.
Q Nov;, would you care to comment, Mr.
Rigassio, on any particular aspect at the
beginning of the lines of progression?
A Yes. X would like to do that. I would
like to first make a few comments concerning
lines of progression, because the lines of
progression as are actually applied in many
companies vary, but normally the lines of pro
gression as they are established, and here I will
talk about steel companies in general, aim- at
accomplishing a number of things. Two of the primary
aims are, one, that they provide a definite channel
or route for on-the-job training through the making
of so-called temporary assignments. Now, this
might bo an assignment for one turn where perhaps
a man who would bo normally in a given job would
be absent because of illness, vacation or even
assignment to another job. The normal lines of
progression provide most steel companies with a
model or pattern for people who are in the lower
jobs to move up on a temporary basis to obtain
on-the-job training. The second objective is
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that the tinea of progression would provide for
a pattern of movement to fill permanent jobs or
make permanent assignments to jobs. This would, be
in the.case of progression upward. They would also
be used in the event of some sort of a temporary
down-turn in production, such as happened this
past September when inventory had to be worked
off in a number of steel industries and there had
to bo some temporary cut-backs, in which case the
line of progression would then serve as the model
by v/hich people would move downward.
sion or the model that he is normally familiar with
provides for him a way of making a decision about
what jobs they might like to move into and what
jobs he would like to prepare for? and it makes
what would otherwise be a somewhat random process
more formal. It would provide for some logic to
his deciding to go into one line of work as opposed
to another line of work.
of the — or I have looked at the exhibits of the
company and I have comments with regard to some
Now, for the employee, the line of progre
Now, on that basis, I have looked at some
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of them.
Q Yo g. Would you ■— which •—
A Well# I have in front of me at the top
here the monocast, and we might just as well
start with it.
Q Are you going to use the large one?
A Doesn’t matter. I will just put these up
here.
Q Go right ahead, Mr. Rigassio.
A Now, on the monocast line of progression,
I note that the company has indicated that a man
who is a probationer and is in the basic entry
job could move upward in any one of the monocast
mills# or diagonally from one mill to another.
This diagonal movement could even be lateral.
And, in looking at this, I would interpret this to
mean that a man who would move from pay group 1
could, let us say, conceivably move into monocast
No. 1 and become any one of a number of jobs, a
pipe roller, a blackening carrier or a core
facer or v/hat have you.
However, I do find that there are a number
of concerns that I would point out to any company
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proposing something like this, that I feel aro
serious limitations in application.
For example, if we were to consider a
man moving from pay group 1, a probationer into,
as I understand the company exhibit, the job
Rammer B Number 1, since this is in the entire
block which covers pay group 6, 5, k, 3 and 2,
then it would be possible for a man to become
a Rammer B and become experienced as a Rammer
B. In looking for his next progression he would
look upward. And, of course, in considering
that one of the reasons for looking upward is to
improve earnings of pay, the only job ho could
look upward to would be Rammer A. And, of course,
his qualifications as Rammer B would do him well
in moving into Rammer1 A in Number 1. Now, let's
assume it was made. We now find that this move
ment which would bo indicated as diagonal and
horizontal and vertical becomes severely limited.
For example, in moving upward from pay
group 7, he would look for another opportunity.
If he were to look laterally he ’would not find
that he would be able to increase his pay unless
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he did become a travel loader operator in unit
23 in which case his experience for that job
might be seriously questioned.
He could not well move into number 2 or
number 3 monocast, because this would not help
him increaso his pay. In moving diagonally
this would also be the case. So he looks upward,
and he sees two jobs in pay group, one is fork
lift operator and the other is rammer hoist operator
number 1. Nov/, the two jobs, as I understand the
practice of the company, he could be precluded
from taking the fork lift operator job, which
leaves him only the job of rammer hoist operator
number 1. And so what he finds in this position
now is that he has no way practically unless ho
is willing to take the lower classification job,
which is sometimes difficult in this day and age
of our economy. Perhaps he could move upward
in becoming a — oh, I am looking for a job he
could look upward to. That would be .bout it.
I do not see that he would necessarily become a
lead man. This apparently has not been the
practice.
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So we see now that the man is boxed in.
And according to the monocant lines of progression
there, ho has very little opportunity to move into
another department where his skills might be
put into better effect an opportunity is expanded.
This sometimes leads to some very dangerous and
tortured type changes. For example, as we see
in Unit 23, a man who is fork lift operator
and truck driver, if he wishes to move upward
would look to two jobs, one would be the Enameline,
and it is conceivable in going from the pay group
of the fork lift operator he would have absolutely
no experience' in Enameline. And Number 2, he could
aspire to become a production welder which is again
an entirely different job of requirements. The not
experience would be that the company night lose a
very good fork lift operator, and might get a
relatively poor type production welder.
Now this is the type thing I see here.
My own feeling about the monocast is that
there are many jobs in here v/hore they could very
well move a man to other jobs in the plant, and
that a man who has the physical ability to do
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the job and the ability to at least indicate
he can handle the job* A man who has long time
job seniority might be permitted to bid in and
move over to other jobs.
you are also familiar with the latest seniority
policy of the company, is that not correct?
in terras of the lines of progression as you see
them and the seniority policy which requires the
bidding on jobs within the department before
they are given to the plant as a whole, and the
exercise of plant seniority only for the purpose
of holding the jobs rather than promotion upward.
Would you comment on that in connection with the
lines of progression?
A Yes, sir. There are normally two types
of seniority that are applied to jobs, in the
steel industry, in some uses there are throe
types. In some cases you have what you call
the sequence seniority in addition to the department
seniority which is in addition to the plant seniority.
Q Mr. Rigassio, while you are on that point
A Yes, sir, I am
Q Would you comment at this point then
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However, companies which have this type
of seniority plan are companies which normally
first have had a workable progression plan
in effect for quite some period of time so that
the application of the department seniority
very closely approximates what would happen
under the application of a plant seniority.
Secondly, the plant seniority is sometimes used
in steel industries where the equipment to be
used or the process to be run is so publicized
that it is reasonable to feel that only people
who have had this highly specialized training
somewhere in the line would be most qualified
to move up. However, I do not see that here in
this particular instance for two reasons: First,
because I see a great similarity of jobs through
out the plant, and secondly I find that some •
jobs that are located in a particular depart
ment, I am talking about the service type of
jobs like fork lift operator as an example, and
a lot of others,- that is i ; many plants are
part of a separate department like for example
transportation. Where a man who aspires to
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become top fork lift operator might work up
to some other lower levels of the job and might
move up this way and may eventually become a
gantry crane operator or a mill crane operator.
These linos of progression are made as a line
to the type training a man should 'get rather than
to a geographical location, let's say monocast 3
as opposed to foundry.
Now, in this particular case I would
suggest that the plant seniority basis for
bidding would be a very practical and very
desirable way, recognizing full well that the
company still would require that the man would
meet the basic physical requirements for the job
and the other jobs for performance, the performance
requirements of the job.
Q So far as the lines of progression that
you see are concerned, would you comment, sir,
on whether or not they have been put together
with care and consideration of related skills for
movement from one particular job to another?
A I must confess in all honesty when I saw
the monocast with all of these different lines
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that I thought that there was relatively little
consideration, or perhaps I should say, it
appeared to me that it was more important to
make lines and arrows in the chart than to make
a built-in opportunity for the people about v/hich
I am speaking.
Q Would you care to comment on the lines of
progression in another department?
A Yes, I have a number here.
One that I have here is the inspection
department,
Q All right, sir.
A Nov;, here is one that I selected because
it does show opportunity for a man to move from
the job probationer which is an entry level job
into various levels of inspection job.
Now, I compared this with some of the job3
that I observed in other parts of the plant
and since we mention monocast before it would
probably be most convenient to go back to monocast
and to indicate that I felt that it would be
quite wise for the company and beneficial for
the employees to have a lino of progression that
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would allow other people who would like to become
an inspector to move into the 'line of progression
for inspection having had previous experience
in other jobs. And in the monocast I can think
offhand of a number of jobs. First of all there
are certain grinder jobs that provide good
experience for a man who is supposed to detect
flaws in pipe. There is nothing like trying to
eliminate or correct a flaw to become intimately
familiar with characteristics of this flaw.
It also leads a man to understand what is
repairable and what must be scrapped. This type
of experience, I believe, would be very important
to a man who would function as an inspector.
You have other people, you have pipe
straighteners, you have other people ranging in
different jobs from hydrant testers and so forth;
you have other people in other areas where pipe
are coated, these people could become inspectors.
According to the way I see the line of progression
for the inspection department, I do not see that
it is possible for these people who have gained
this type of experience which would well suit
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them for the inspection department to move into
the inspection job without having, I gather, to
go back and become a probationer and start all
over again. And I would recommend that the
inspection line of progression for example allow
this transfer of skills and interests. And I
must point out, it seems to me where you get a
man who is not only qualified but interested
in what he is doing jneu get a good man. And
I think that is the kind of thing that is logical
and well thought out and tends to inspire and
makes for good performance and. makes for good
quality for the company.
Q Is it your under'standing from looking at
the documents that you had that the inspection
department is predominantly white?
A Yes, sir. I looked at this document which
is attached to Mr. Copeland’s deposition, and
under the heading of Inspection I have noticed
that the department i3 white.
Q And the monocast department has a large
concentration of blacks?
Yes. I have observed this to be a. fact.A
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And is one of the largest if not the largest
department of blacks, yes, sir.
Q There has been some testimony in this
case about a core maker who — core maker helper
who wanted to become a core maker and that he had
the qualifications of being a core' maker. Could
you comment, sir, on whether or not there is a
correlation between the helper, core maker helper
and the core maker job and how they should be
possibly fitted in linos of progression?
A Yes, sir. Of course, there are a number of
core making jobs. Some I have observed in monocast
which are bench jobs and are related also to the
machine core making jobs in those areas. However,
I also observed a bench core making job in another
part of the plant. I believe it was in the foundry.
And there I observed a team type of job where in
the core maker would shake sand, ram, perhaps do
some limited trowelling, and then the helper would
then remove the core from the bench, locate it on
a moving monorail conveyor and bring to the bench
another core to bo filled.
During the filling process, the serviceman
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would bo observing the operation and ho would
also bo required to assist in getting materials
and becoming familiar with the types of materials
that are used, the texture of the sand and its
compounding, the manner in which the sand is rammed,
and the way in which the general job is handled.
This is a good way of learning a job,
working right alongside another man, and it would
appear to me that this would be a logical type of
progression for a man.
There are other progressions into the core
making job that 1 would see. Certain of your sand
mixing jobs familiarise the employee with the
proper handling and blending of sand. It familiar
ises them with the need to use the sand within a
certain period, of time so as the various resins and
compounds that are put in there would remain effective
and so forth. There are a number of jobs that
could lead into the core maker job. The service
man being I believe one of the best, because this
man works right at the elbow of the core maker
and observes what he is doing.
Q Now, do I understand you are not offering
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us a solution to the problem but just giving us
some si; gestions as to what can be done to remedy
the condition and pointing out some of the faults
in the system?
A Yes, sir. There are a number of solutions
that are available, but in many cases these solu
tions must be tailor-made to the particular job
and for the conditions as they exist. This is
why, for example, what I am suggesting is most
logically a follow-up wherein these management
practices could be installed.
For example, in looking at different jobs
to determine accurately the length of time a man
should qualify for a job, this could be done.
It is done. But it*s a time-consuming thing,
because it requires that first the job be com
pletely analysed, and then it requires the dif
ferent skills that are required be identified as
to what is basically needed and how long this
basic need takes to develop and whether it is
an on-the-job type of experience that is required
as opposed to a general e perience that one might
get by just working in the plant.
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For example, if it is a knowledge of
general plant procedures and safety practices
and this sort of thing, you can get this on any
number of jobs. If it is, on the other hand, an
experience that requires special highly developed
manipulative types of skills, this can only be
done by doing that exact thing. This can be done.
And I am pointing out hero things that can be done.
I am not, however, offering any particular solu
tion at this time becai @ this would require further
study.
Q All right. How, there has been some
testimony which is before the Court that the
monocast department, a substantial portion of it
will bo eliminated in a very short period of time.
Would plant seniority be of value in finding jobs
for the persons who will no longer be working
perhaps in monocast?
A Oh, very definitely. I think highly
necessary. There are many jobs in the monocast
department where skills that are transferable
to pa bs of the plant are developed. People run
machinery. The drill, the man who drills flanges.
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for example, no reason why he coul n't easily
move into a production machinist's type of job
very easily. There are people who nix sand and
blend it. There are people who do grinding. There
are people who do pipe straightening. There are
people who do casting. There are many parts in
the plant where casting will still be done regard
less of whether monocast is present. There are
people in the monocast department who handle
material, transport it with various types of
equipment, monorails, dinkies, lift trucks. These
skills are transferrable. And the plant seniority
basis would provide a good basis for making this
decision. Again, the physical ability of the man
and the ability to handle the job being other
considerations.
Q Would you suggest any input from the
employees in working out any plan of seniority?
A Very definitely. And this is normally
the practice, that the employee groups are repre
sented in all these areas, because it is something
that affects them directly and I think they have
a right to be represented in that.
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THE COURTj Take a ton minute recess.
(Whereupon* at 10t30 A. M.
a recess was taken, after
which the following occurred.)
Q Mr. Rigassio, we were talking about the
line of progression at the recess. I would like
to move now from that to the other matters,
particularly the production machinist operation
where there is predominantly white work force.
Do you care to comment on that as relates to the
lines of progression and other matters that we
disc -sed?
A Yes, sir. I did look at the 30b d scrip-
tions for various jobs that have been written up
as production machinist. Most of those jobs are
in pay group 9 . I did this for two reasons:
First, because I wanted to see from the descrip
tions and from my experience and knowledge in machine
trades what types of experience which an employee
might gain in other parts of the plant would suit
him for movement into the production machinist
job. And number 2, I wanted to find out if I
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could find out any reason in the basic job
itself for the apparent correlation, or I guess
I should say the lack of correlation. In the material
that was a total of 121 people I suppose as of
September 21, 1971 in production machinist job
of which none were black. So I looked at these
job3 and I looked at them on the basis of not
only my understanding of the job, but on the basis
of what other plants and operations in which
this type of job would be round have. Cf course,
it Is only necessary to look at the steel industry.
But In the national metal trades in general,
and even though I iave been talking about the
steel industry plan, this is not the only plan
that would be viable. There are many more plants
in which machine operations are located which are
evaluated according to the basic plan for the
national metal trades. But again, this is some
what similar to the steel plan.
I find for example that there is a job
entitled production machinist stick man, and
he is in the number 3 machine shop. Nov/, this
is pay group 9* This man works along with another
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man who operates a machine known as a landis
threader, and what this man docs, ho uses a
large suspended stick suspended from a crane
which he controls from the floor, and what he
does, he moves these rather large heavy sections
of pipe into and out of this big machine* Now,
the company, and rightfully so, and what he does
he moves these rather large and heavy sections
of pipe into and out of this big machine.
Now, the company, and. rightfully so, feels that
it could take a man two months to learn this
particular job. And that the prerequisite
skills would be to have some equivalent machinist
skills somewhere with knowledge of reading and
writing and some basic arithmetic. Essentially
what he does, ho slides the stick into the pipe,
and he swings the pipe into the threader. Then
he removes the pipe from the threader, and he
pulls out the stick and assists the threader
operator in pushing various buttons. And he
learns the operation of the threader operator,
and ho keeps the machines cleaned and various
other things which is done under supervision.
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And this job would be the most logical for someone
with some other experience, perhaps a grinder,
or a grinder machine operator, or a push button
sort of a job, or a coating machine operator,
or some of the sand mixing operations. This
typo of man could very well fit into production
machine operator. 'There is another job that
is called rod machine operator. This is also
a pay group 9 job. But what he does here, he
uses a turret lathe, and the tolerances are
not close. I mentioned before it is a plus
or minus 132nd of an incl . A man with a pro
fessional lathe this is not a close tolerance
at all. People in the metal trades who are
handling lathes talk in terms of three one
thousandths of an inch for example. So this
man uses this lathe, and what he does ho makes
threads on rods, and solders, breids sleeves
to the rods. The expected time to learn this
job is two months and scorns reasonable. He sets
the rod up to the machine and puts the rod in the
machine and threads it. And he ha
which he heats the materials for s
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s a furnace in
oldering and
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actually brazing. And he must read and interpret orders,
and he does a daily check of the oil level on the
machine; ho must clean the machine at the end of
the shift; and must do minor repair work; and does
use certain gauges like a micrometer for example
which is not a difficult typo of thing to use;
and knows safety rules. And in the case of a
malfunctioning of equipment reports malfunctions
to the supervisor.
There is, for example, the production
machinist radial drill operator. This is also
a pay group 9 job. What he does, he drills holes
in the flanges which are at the end of the pipe
so that bolts could be put into them so that a
pipe could be connected to another one with a
gasket in between, and ho uses a radial drill
'■'O orill the holes. And in his job he receives
written and verbal instructions. He puts a
templet on the end of the pipe to locate the
place where the drill is supposed to make the
hole, and he drills the holes from hole to hole,
and he has to be able to set the speed of the machine,
lie must keep the shavings brushed away from the holes.
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Ho must signal the orano to move the fittings and
the pipes. He must keep the work area neat. He
must clean the machine and check the oil level
daily and have a knowledge of safety rules.
Now, we could go on at length about this
type of — these types of jobs, but this is a
production machinist's job, and I frankly feel that
there is opportunity here for many of the lines of
progression a.s was proposed by the company to
naturally lead into jobs -hat are entitled
production machinist, which I gather heretofore
have been completely white and are considered to
be highly complex. I do not feel that it is not
possible for people with the experience they get
in other jobs to move — to take on this job and
do a fine job of it.
I don't want to go through all of the jobs,
but there are many jobs in the production machine
r: op that are like this.
Q Similar to the ones that you just described?
A Yes, sir.
Q I see.
A And with varying degrees of training,
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running from two norths, sons of four months,
an occasional six-month job appears in there,
but this is tho order of magnitude of the training
needed in the production machinist's job.
In sons jobs, it is natural for a nan to
move from, say, a radial drill to another type of
drilling operation, but this again is part of the
Internal details. There are entry jobs here that
a man could well move into and well qualified for and
well execute on the basis of experience he gets in
other parts of the plant.
Q All right. Mr. Rigassio, are there any
other matters that you wanted to comment on before
the company takes you on cross examination?
A I would say that Is about the size of
my testimony.
MR. ADAMS* All right. Thank you very
much. Mr. Forman will cross examine you.
GROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Forman) Mr. Rigassio, you are
aware in the machine shop line the — well, first
of all, these lines of progression have been made
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known to you as what has been a practice of the
company over the past several years and not
formalized lines as you would find in the steel
industry made a part of a collective bargaining
agreement?
A If I can understand your question, as
they have been handed to me, I understand that
the company did offer this as some sort of a model
of what you have been doing. This is what I under
stand is the case.
Q All right. Well, looking at the machine
shop then you see that the entry job into the
higher level jobs is the drill press operator?
A Let re find the machine shop. I would
like to — all right. I am sorry, hr* Forman.
Could I ask you to repeat the question? I have
now in front of me the formal line of progression
for the machine shop.
Q Yes. And you see the empty line there
about halfway up the page in pay group ?, the job
of drill press operator?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you are aware that black employees
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Federal Court Reporting Company
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Birmingham, Alabama
are on that job, are you not?
A Yes, sir. I understand that that is a
.job level ? and there are a few black drill press
operators.
Q And you are aware that the drill press
operator job is the job through which the machinists
have historically moved in going up to production
machinist and then to the craft of machinist? You
understand that, do you not?
A Well, I see here that there are a number of
jobs that the drill press operator could move to,
including, I gather, crane operator? but, again,
I have also made reference to the other document
that I have that raised question in my own mind as
to whether this actually happens, that black drill
press operators do move up, because there vtoro I
believe 121 white operators of radial drills and
production machines and no blacks, and I thought
this was a rather lar a imbalance. So that to
answer your question, yes, I see this written
down here, but my question still exists as to
whether or not this actually happened.
You were at the plant approximately how
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many hours on your visit?
A I would estimate about six hours, sir.
Q Six hours?
A Yes, sir.
Q And one of the jobs you testified about,
Rammer No. 2, was not working that.day, was it,
when you were there?
A I was up on the ramming stage of No. 1.
The rammer No. 2 job was not in operation. How
ever, I did observe the site of the rammer 2, and
I did see the two level work stations and. the
rather large castings that were made in that area,
and I did make reference to your job — written
job description.
Q Were you informed that that job works
maybe as long as an hour a day —
A Yes, sir.
Q — or less?
A I was not informed of that. And, again,
in joo evaluation the skills and experience
requirements are important. If anything, a job that
is intermittent requires son jtiraes a lot more
adaptability of people than a job that i3 routine,
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but then again that is another matter. To answer
your question, I was not informed that it runs
one hour a day.
Q You have made reference to a job evaluation
program. Do you have any judgment as to what such
a program would cost?
A I could only estimate it. We have done —
we have installed job evaluation plans in many
companies, in seme cases utilizing quite a bit of
computer time, because — well, in the case that —
in the situation where we fin: hea a job up in
Alpena, Michigan, where the company at that time
had some rather rigid restraints on the redoing of
the job evaluation plan as a result of this col
lective bargaining agreement, where we at that
time wore retained by both the company and the
organization that — the organization of employees,
Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama U6 3
which i believe is Harriet 27, united Hates*
Steel Yorkers, there we used quite a cit of com
puter time to test out the different combinations
and actually fit'the plan.
This could be highly tine-consuming*
However, if the company is willing to look into
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some of the already developed plans, like the one
for the steel company or the National Metal Trades,
a plan like this may be put into operation well
within a period of a year using your own industrial
engineering staff and some of the employees along
with you to do this,
9 Well, you are talking about a very very
expensive program, are you not?
A Well, it could be expensive, yes. But,
it*s something that I think is a legitimate expense
when you consider businesses.
3 wall, you are talking in the range of
six figures or mere just for the intial evaluation?
realistic, let me ay it could be in the low six
figures, yes, sir.
of bringing it up to date or else it*3 of no value
at all, is it?
True?
A It may be -ithin — I think in some cases
Q And then you have the necessary expense
A
up to date
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Q And you would anticipate a full-time
staff of three industrial engineers to keep the
plan up to date?
A Mo, sir. No, sir. I do not feel that
— 1 think you can probably install the plan within
the year with three people working on it, but, once
the plan is installed, I do not see that it would
require even on the average of one man to keep the
plan up to date.
Q In view of the change of job content —
A Yes, sir.
Q — duties?
A Normally — normally — I don't know how
many jobs you would change every v̂ eek, but normally
the joint committee that gets together to review
any changes night in most plants do this once a
month. Cnee the plan is operational, it does
require maintenance, but it is not a totally time-
consuming thing for even one man. Usually a con-
mitt ee meets about once a month. That is about it.
This has been our experience.
Q In looking at this plant, you observed
that it was primarily a foundry, did you not?
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A Yo g , sir. I did not seo any of tho basic
operations that i would expect to see in other
plants, like, for example, cooking ovens or blast
furnaces, nor did I see any structural mills, for
example, Yes, it is basically a foundry.
Q Yet you have not compared this plant to
any foundry plant, have you, or foundry industry?
A Well, foundry operations within using the
framework of the basic steel plant, you find that
there are very close similarities in basic operations
so that you night possibly have most of your opera
tions within the foundry type of production process,
yet in a larger, more integrated steel pi nt the
foundry as it exists in your place may be only one
part of a number of operations. You may have a
foundry plus a structural mill and a pipe operation.
You may have a company that has an open hearth operation
and a foundry and a structural mill and a pipe opera
tion. So that you just happen to specialise in
pipe. You happen to emphasize foundry. But I do
not see that this- brings in any particular problems
that could not lead us to compare to other steel
industries in which a foundry is its portion.
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Q Now, Mr. Rigassio, is it not a good
management practice to compare your wage rates
with your competitors?
A Oh, yes. Very definitely.
MR. FORMANi I believe that is all.
} RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) Mr. Rigassio, I believe
you talked about the plan not only of the steel
industry but the *— what was the other?
A National Metal Trades Association. This
is another plan that is more characteristic of the
metal trades industry in which people work with the
output of steel mills, and they form it, they cut
it, they shape it, and they use various types of
machine tools. This type of plant is also appli
cable to the type of thing we are talking about here.
Q All right. I believe Mr. Forman indicated
that to put into effect a plan which you are talking
about might be costly. What is your judgment as an
expert as to the-cost of such in relationship to
good industrial techniques and engineering? Is
that a factor v/hich is considered to be legitimate?
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A I must ask if I understand your question.
Are you asking, Mr. Adams, whether a job evaluation
plan and the cost associated with it is part — is
a legitimate part of an ongoing industrial engineer
ing operation? If that was your question, my answer
is most decidedly yes, because the industrial engineer
ing function in industry today, which is required
by Industry today to be competitive, requires the
evaluation of — detailed evaluation of the man
that is doing the job, the machinery which the man
operates, the materials that are being used in
the production to eliminate waste and cost, the
various methods that are being used, the various
incentive plans that may be used to reward for
higher quality and higher production output and
the general factory, the material handling equip
ment and so forth.
So I would see that if you are talking about
a real good modern industrial engineering function
the job evaluation operation would be small by
comparison to the -total industrial engineering
function, which is really t'equired today to meet
competition, particularly far in competition.
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This is necessary. And a real good industrial
engineering department is really necessary today
if a company is to bo competitive.
Q Is it possible that with such an evalua
tion the company may even cut costs?
A Oh, yes, yes. Not only that, but there
are two things that can happens One, is that a
company might be able to reduce cost through
savings. And secondly, it might be even able
to even really economically justify higher wage
rates it might be even possible in the industry.
I knov; there is always a temptation as I have men
tioned to compare with other industries, but how
ever where there is need to improve performance or
to provide some additional incentive to perform
above and beyond what other industries are doing,
let’s say foreign or domestic, that in some cases
the strategy of competition might even require
higher wage rates, in which case the application
through industrial engineering the cost could be
so reduced that not only could the higher wage
rates be paid but the company could also not a
much higher revenue and operating profit as a
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409 Federal Building
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result itself. Yes, I would agree with you
100 per cent on that.
MR. ADAMSs No further questions.
MR. FORMANs No further questions.
THE COURT: May Mr. Rigassio he excused?
MR. ADAMS* No objections on our part.
THE COURTi You may be excused.
(Witness excused. )
MR. ADAMSi Judge, I want to call one
witness who has been on before. I want to call him.
HARVEY HENLEY.
having been previously duly sworn, was recalled as
a witness, resumed the stand and testified as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
q (By Mr. Adams) Mr. Henley, I believe you
have previously testified in this case?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you are one of the plaintiffs in this
cause of Pettway versus American Cast Iron Pipe
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Company?
A Yes, sir.
Q Mr. Henley, did you file a complaint with
EEOC?
A Yes# sir, I did.
Q And did you receive any reply from your
company?
A I did.
Q Did you receive the reasonable cause
finding in this case?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is this a copy of it here?
A This is it. (Indicating papers. )
MR. ADAMSs We would offer this as
Plaintiff's Exhibit 31.
MR. FORMAN» We object to it as being
incompetent, irrelevant.
(Whereupon, said documents were
received and marked, "Plaintiff's
Exhibit 31?)
Q Are you also familiar with the reasonable
cause findings that was had in the original case
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as a member of the Committee on Equal Job Opportunities?
A Yes, sir.
Q I will show them to you.
A This is it.
MR. ADAMS* I offer that as Plaintiff’s
Exhibit, that is Number 32, I think.
MR. FORMAN* Same bjection to this,
if the Court please.
(Whereupon, said documents were
received and marked, "Plaintiff's
Exhibit 32.")
MR, ADAMS s That's all.
There are two other matters that the
plaintiff would like to — does he want to cross
examine?
MR. FORMAN* No.
(Witness excused.)
MR. ADAMS* Judge, there are two other
matters which the plaintiff would like to call to
the Court’s attention before we close our case, and
that is that under the — we make a notion that in
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the event the Court finds in our favor that there
is a determination that back pay would be awarded
that the matter be referred to the Special Master
that might complete that termination.
THE COURT I That would be done —
MR. ADAMS* And the other matter which
would be a little bit more delicate, we would like
the evidence which v/as before this court which was
in the matter of the Peter Wrenn case to be a part
of the record in this case for this reason? In
the opinion in that case the Fifth Circuit says —
if the Court remembers the Court took it as a
separate case apart from this, but it was decided
in the case in the Fifth Circuit they said it was
properly a part of this particular case. And if
it is a part of this case we would like to have it
as part of the record and make it a part of the
complete record.
THE COURTJ All right. That would be
received. As a matter of fact, in reversing this
Court the Fifth Circuit held that the discharge of
Peter Wrenn was duo to the filing of the complaint, and
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that was why it was reversed; and it will be con
sidered part of the record in this case.
MR. ADAMS5 With that we rest our case,
Your Honor.
MR. FORMANs We would like to call
as our first witness Mr. Sam Phelps.
MR. ADAMSi Judge, there is one other
point I would like to make. I don't think there is
any objection on the part of the defendant company.
We followed this policy in the other cases. In
case that the findings are in favor of the plaintiffs
that the question of attorney's fee can be gone into
at another time if they cannot be agreed on by both
parties. Is that not our —
THE COURT: That Is the order, that
it is done.
MR. SAM PHELPS.
called as a witness, having been previously sworn,
was examined further and testified as followsi
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Forman) State your name, please.
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A Sam Phelps..
MR. FORMANi I believe he has already
been identified if the Court please, having been on
the stand.
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Q Mr. Phelps, would you briefly state your
work experience with the American Cast Iron Pipe
Company?
A At the present time I am Employment Manager.
I have been with the company 35 years. I was employed
as a laborer in the Pipe Shop and I worked as laborer
on some semi-skilled production jobs and various
departments. I worked as a clerk and secretary for
a time in Research and served in the molders' trade.
I worked in various departments according to where
there might be a shortage of personnel. Sometimes
maintenance and sometimes in the storeroom.
I was made foreman of the Steel Foundry prior
to entering the army in World War II, the Air Force.
I came back from the Air Force and returned to the job
as Foundry Foreman and stayed about ten years and then
went to Personnel.
c, a
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A
Q When did you go to Personnel# what year?
January# 1956•
Q And you have been in Personnel since that
time?
A Since that time.
Q At the time you went to Personnel who was
the man in charge of Personnel?
A Mr. icing was the Personnel Director and
my Supervisor.
any study made of the question in reference to the
institution of a testing program?
Company# Management Consultants were engaged by
the company in a number of areas, the one I knew
about was the testing program that was established
under the direction of a Management Consultant, Mr.
Harden 'Walker. He was an employee of the firm of
Ernst & Ernst.
Q When did he first come to ACIPCO?
A He came as an employee of Ernst & Ernst in
the fall of 1955• I don’t know that date.
Q The fall of 1955?
Q And at that time# Mr. Phelps, was there
A Sometime in the fall the Ernst & Ernst
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A Yes, sir.
Q And from January, 1956 on did you v/orlc
with him and under his supervision and direction?
A Yes, I worked under his direction and
supervision.
Q Was he a psychologist?
A He wa3 a psychologist, yes, sir.
Q And will you state to the Court what v/ork
he did for ACIPCO in reference 'o the instituting
the testing program?
k -n January, 1956 all z t t p & w i z U m , lead -on
and through ssarages'erst were given a general -catcrity
and psychological tori by Mr, :fe/rden -alker, :-le •,/*«
a consultant with 2rmrt and Ernst frere Cleveland, Oslo.
In August, 1956 the testing program vac started
for the selection of apprentice" in the craft traces
and it was established by hr. hirer and this program
included a general maturity tost and an aptitude test.
On September 1st, 1956 hr. Harden Walker was
employed by the American Cast Iron Pipe Company as
Industrial Relations Eirector. His primary duty vas
to establish a program of employee selection and
training and promotion.
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The program started in the fall of 1957
for testing candidates for jobs in the Mechanical
Service Department. These tests were general
maturity and aptitude tests, requiring a score
in the fifty percentile.
This program was expanded until the year
i960. All white hires were required to take the
screen test and make a score of forty percentile
or better to qualify for employment.
Q At that time was any test given the negro
hires or black hires?
A No.
Q . What was the requirement for their employ
ment?
A Physical examination.
Q Mr. Phelps, was there any requirement with
reference to white hires in regard to high school
education?
A Yes, a high school education was required
of white hires.
Q There has been introduced in evidence an
exhibit by the plaintiff which is Exhibit Number
26 which purports to give the total number of
h
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employees with high school education by seniority
date, and race and I will ask you whether or not
you have had your office review the material upon
which that tabulation was made and —
A We have reviewed it and we made another
tabulation.
Q All right, first of all did you find an
error or some errors in the computer print-out?
A Yes.
Q Have you identified on your revision of that
tabulation those areas?
A We have.
MR. FORMANt Let me have this identified
as the next exhibit, Exhibit — Defendant's Exhibit
14.
Mr. Phelps, would you explain this
Defendant's Exhibit 14? What is shown on this
exhibit there?
A Taking the print-out of August 12 that we
submitted, v/e went back and counted those figures
going up to less than one year. This number of 20
is what is over here and was furnished in this
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Exhibit Number 26 and our figure is above that
in the large typing. It is explained up here on
the top. The large typing is the correction we
made. That is the way we counted them.
Q From a physical count of the number of people
shown on the August 12, 19?1 print-out?
A That is correct, from the print-out.
Q Now, have you also indicated on this retabu
lation, Defendant's Exhibit 1^, notations as to
where errors had been in the recording of the
transmitting to the computer the educational level
of said employees?
A Yes, sir, that Is correct. The errors are
identified down here, J. Z. Evans, there as an
error on our part in the computer. That was cor
rected and another error on ~. G. Self where it
’..as read 05 and it was charged to 50.
1 ttached to that exhibit is there —
A There is a verification of those.
T There is a vorlflcatier of those errors Ir
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identified, the tabulation or the count is
based on that August 12, 1971 print-out?
A That is correct.
Q Nov/, Mr. Phelps, would you state what —
I asked you about i960. Subsequent to i960 you
said the white hires were required to pass a screen
test?
A Yes, sir.
Q And to go into mechanical service to pass
the battery?
A General maturity and aptitude.
Q What tests v/ere those? Can you identify
thera?
A The General Maturity Test was the California
Mental Maturity, California Survey of Mental Maturity
and the California Prognostic Mechanical Ability
Test.
Q. Throe are attached to s?
or.-. -re or h* a i.'Serrrrsseries'
k Tec, sir.
% Arc has tfc*
Mr- ?-ai;-?
k Mr. Isatler •.'.•sixer, the 1 4r* .
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Q Dogs the manuals that accompany those
tests recommend their use in industry?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Phelps, was the requirement of the
high school education and passing the screen test
also made applicable to black hires and if so, when?
A At a later date. The passing of the screen
test and the high school education were made appli
cable to black hires in 196k.
Q And at a later date was the requirement
removed from both white hires and black hires?
A On July Vlt 19^9 it was removed for promo
tion in pay groups one through eight.
At still a later date the requirements vie re
removed on pay groups nine through fifteen, the
high school diploma and test requirements.
Q At the time the test requirements were
initiated for black hires as •■oil as white hires,
would you state to the Court who administered the
tests and ow they were as tirlatered and ~tcre?
A Itate thest again*
At to* time Ska. tettlmg; yrogyes >.-a.s
iris buss the negro 'ires or bbato hirer# -verbs yesfc#V
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state to the Court the manner in which the tests
were given and who gave them and how they were
scored?
A I gave the tests myself. We would open
our employment office at 8:00 o ’clock — actually
we opened it about ?t30 and people would come in
to the tables and desks and have a seat and at
8sOO o ’clock we would pass out the employment
applications for people to complete. During the
process of completing the applications we would
give a screen test, a twelve minute test and take
those up and let the people complete the applica
tion forms and talk with each individual about his
application.
The tests were graded with a templet by one
of the clerks in the department and returned to me
and we would attach the test and the application.
Q During that period from — first of all, the
black and white applicants tested in the same room?
A That is correct.
Q Under the same conditions?
A That is correct.
Q Were the tests scored alike, black and white
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with the same scoring system?
A The same sc -ring system, the same t lplet
from the manual.
Q Same norm applied to "both?
A Same norm.
Q Following the testing were the people "being
considered for hire limited to those who passed
the screen test and had the requisite qualifica
tion of a high school diploma or an equivalent?
A Yes.
Q Were they hired without regard to race
rosi that group?
A Yes, from that group.
Q "r. Fnelps, in the ra
in. effect before February, 19&3, at the time you
the 23 pay groups, do you recall that?
A Yes, sir*
1 in you recall -star that ra ta t/u.ot vra i*aa
put Into effect initially?
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Q Did the rate — ■ the job rate structure, that
23 group structure apply to blacks and whites alike?
A Yes.
Q Was there at a later date an achievement
level attached to the structure in regard for
moving from certain pay groups to another pay
group?
A Yes.
Q When was that done?
A December 28, 196 .̂
Q Will you state to the Court the background
of the development of that program and its appli
cation?
A We developed a procedure — v/e already the
23 pay groups and we had required the same employ
ment requirements on the whites and the blacks and
going further into the line of promotion and
devised a testing program using the California
Mental Maturity Test to measure the acquired educa
tion of our people. Taking a hundred people of
average performers, the department heads selected
these average performers and sent then to personnel
and v/e administered a general maturity test and
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measured their academic achievement. And using
the average performers and the total population
of the company, that was 23 whites and 75 blacks
was the sample, we came up with some average
scores for each group, each pay group and using
the publisher's national norm we took our local
norm and applied it on his formula, on his scale
and the people in the various pay groups were
identified and the scores were made and so we
adopted this rate progression schedule and these
scores as minimum achievements for promotion into
the next high group.
Q And those achievement levels applied to
black and white alike?
A That is correct.
Q later was a change made in the achievement
level program?
A February 19, 19^8 it was changed.
Q And what change was made at that time, Hr.
Phelps?
A The number of pay groups were reduced from
23 to 15. The requirements, the achievement level
nne through eight wererequirements on pay groups
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dropped. We required a forty percentile on
pay groups nine and ten, fifty percentile on
pay groups eleven, fifty percentile plus a craft
or aptitude test on twelve and thirteen, fifty
percentile evaluation, psychological inventory
for supervision in pay groups fourteen and fifteen,
lead men and foremen.
Q Were those requirements given a symbol or
a number?
A Yes, sir, that is correct, the achievement
level was actually the percentile — if a person
made ten percentile we gave them achievement level
one and twenty percentile number 2 and so on.
MR. FORMAN* We would like to have this
next exhibit identified as Defendant's Exhibit 15.
Q Mr. Phelps, would you look at Defendant's
Exhibit 15 and I will ask you will you state what
that is?
A This was the change of the rate structure
prior to February 19, 1968. It was then trans
ferred from the 23 pay groups to the 15 pay groups
and you can see across there the lateral moves,
achievement level zero, one, two, throe, four and
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the requirements wore eliminated and then the
first requirement forty percentile jver on the
loft became PQ-1 and that is fifty percentile
and then the sixty percentile over on the loft
became two and then pay groups twelve and thirteen,
PQ-3 which was fifty percentile plus craft and
four was fifty percentile plus supervision.
Q Mr. Phelps, the new rate the job rate
structure, was that applicable to blacks and
whites alike?
A Yes.
Q And subsequent to — was it Ju.:.y, 1969 the
high school graduate requirements had been dropped
and the screen test dropped?
A Qualifications for white hires was eliminated
in pay groups one through eight on July 1h, 1969.
Q Was that also eliminated for black hires at
the same time?
A Black hires at the same time.
Q And then the testing program was entirely
discontinued and when was that?
A The testing program was completely discon
tinued on March 25th, 1971*
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Q Mr. Phelps, in your work in personnel have
you had. any training, or work related to the admin
istration of tests given over the years?
A Yes.
Q Would you please relate that to the Court?
A I had some work when I was in college in
psychology and psychological testing. When I was
in the Air Force I worked some as a Personnel
Technician in administering tests for selection
of flight personnel.
After that time, January, 1966 I went to
the American Management Association in New York
on a seminar on testing and in September, 1968
I went to the American Management Association in
Chicago and again on November — in November, *69
I went to New York to the Psychological Corporation
Publishers Test.
I have been to other local seminars and
belong to the Personnel Association and from time
to time we have programs of qualified people who
come in and help us.
That covers it.
Q Since the beginning of the current year
- t o
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FeJerjf Ccttrt Rfportiwg Ccm&any
-:-2? FsiifrA E.iiLijstz
-".ere been a — —V v * -s ,3 • ^^ — __s
A Yes.
Q Have you or not
of the department head
posted o
A Yes.
% And a- "and e d- ?
A Yes.
tabulat
of the
d with the aooistar.ce
hide that have beer.
- ' * -0?.'.’.‘-2: s ■ a r k t h i s a s D e f e n d a n t s
ipg* number of fobs or. the sheet, Job titles, pay
group, rate, shift, the raster of people that hid
on it, the nane of the successful "bidder, identi
fication by race, the department that the person
bid into and the date he was placed on it.
Aside from that v/e have another group here
from the department that the department su bm itted
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to us and that is departmental bids and this is
plantwide.
Q Would you explain to the court the reason
why some are departmental and some are plantwide?
A When an opening occurs in a department in
pay group four and above that job is posted for
bids. The pay group, the information about the
job is written out and posted in the department
where the people can bid on that and they go to
their department to sign the bid sheet. And the
qualified bidder is chosen — the qualified bidder
with the longest length of service is chosen.
At times when there are no qualified bidders
or no one signs the bid sheet in the department it
is passed n to personnel and it is placed plant
wide and we place the bid in the proper place and
it is bidded plantwide and the qualified bidder
with the longest length of service takes the job.
Nov;, on entry level jobs, pay groups two
and three, these jobs are posted by the Personnel
Department in the clock houses where it is con
venient to all people. They are posted and listed
and identified and tfee cesgXe in, tee department
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v/horc the opening occurs can go to the department
and sign for that job or if they are in another
department they can come to personnel and sign
ior that job. If there Is no bidder it will be
filled with a new hire.
?i r * Phelps, do you have any responsibility
xn fere nee to the apprenticeship nrc-rar.?
A I serve on the ccmnittee, the aaprartiaeship
. r a t i n ' o f h - a h - n r n h i s o - ' i ;
- ->e
A _..,a aypre.-'tsac itip sorrsitt^ — *££2^ s"*
of t&s 'rrlr.e f '.ctlsaa la ho a*2*rs «Sivh Ihe'VKt for
aryrs'-tin*m Ip rr eysr-sr* f**r
a hors She
-''sr .os rrogmr.. ann any rirt.-rslono
■grar aro ro or-,, some of oho member: oao
the s-rloyees. 3rt they - ±slnister
illy in
2̂.?2o * tree tic ns, however, the
~~ —i'— as s —rec .cr as ever air and ha handles that
pros sore other training functions. The arprcnti.ee-
ship committee approves the people selected for
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appr e nt i c e s h Ip.
Q As I recall you testified, a little while
ago you began giving the test, battery of tests
and the aptitude test to apprenticeship candi
dates in 1956?
A September 1st, 1956* — August, 1956.
Q And had all candidates for apprenticeship
passed those tests that the level required before
entering the program?
A Yes.
Q What was the test designed to do?
A These tests m .cured inability, scholastic
aptitude. If It was a classroom situation it would
be scholastic aptitude and in industry It would be
trainability and it measured the ability to learn
and it measured the mental factors that are involved
and acquired incwledre or learning, whether It be
classroom or an the Jafc#
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verbal concepts and. special relations.
A mechanical aptitude test that is used
for the trades will measure arithmetic computa
tions, drawing from blueprints, special relations,
identification, knowledge of tools and measure
ment. The use of a simple scale to measure.
Those are the five areas that mechanical
aptitude does measure and there are related to
our trades.
Q What trades do you have there at AGIPCO?
A We have the electrician, the pattern maker,
the machinist, the brickmason, carpenter and we
have a. few more from time to time, the tinsmith
and one time v/e had the blacksmith but it is learned
on the job now.
I believe that covers the principal ones.
Oh, I left out the molder and c;re maker
in production.
Q Eo you have an apprenticeship program for
each of those trades you have named'?
A feu.
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A People in a particular area can go see
our Training Director and he will advise with
them and purchase for them through the company
a course through the International Correspondence
School which is identical to the apprentice work.
And they can study that.
Also we have a Training Director who is equipped
to advise on any personal requirements that they
might have and advise them maybe to take some
course to improve some other skill if it is not
job related and advise them where they can get
information or where they can go to school or
what’s needed of them.
v'e have people that — who are learning the
job on the job.
4 till you explain that?
A Cur training program, principally our pro
tect ier. eel to "<ore so tore' to oe -ore e; onrt.rit/
there. Chat io ••-here a tre.ee -o r- ^ > 5. "
r-f f -5
?3r being the eerul.eeae'*t jo'et, te*
^ *' - -owe- -m*-v‘ > — *• - - ' " - # ' -■ ̂ *■ — - - - - - > -
tee iron poorer are teete ere e very to
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the molders* trade. Same thing would apply in
the Machine Shop where an employee would start
out as a crane hooker, serviceman and up to a
drill press operator, axle operator to a turrott
lathe operator. Those are steps toward the
journeyman machinist, steps to master before he
can make journeyman machinist.
Q An employee, regardless of race, can go
through those stops without going through an
apprenticeship program to a craft?
A Yes.
MR. FORMAN: I don't know whether I
offered Defendant's Exhibit 16 or not. If I
didn't, I do want to offer it.
THE COURT: All right.
Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
CRO" : 1 EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) Mr. Phelps, are you
familiarpv*ith the plaintiff's exhibit which
deals with the average test scores by capart-
-5«* 1c j~. -res t: as the department — that
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
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In all depart--sets, In teas
I carls ano"or that positlvel7 .
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A Tes.
« All right, are you also fasllizir with the
fact, Rr. Plains, after the test --as pat in iron
1955 until It as discontinued that the nunber of
^97
the blacks score less favorable than whites
on tests?
A La some departments, yes, sir.
Q Which department would they score better?
A Restate your question.
3 I said are you familiar with the fact that
in talcing the tests blacks score less favorably
tear - ites?
A Tas.
.hites increased and the number of blacks decreased
in the hiring there at ACIPCO?
A Yes.
Q And do you contribute that to the fact
that tests were put in about that tine?
A In July, 196^ it was put in and the whites
— there were more whites hired than blacks.
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Q as tnat because of tho screen test that
was given to then?
A Yes, they made a loner test score.
Q lid the company do anything, Sr. Phelps,
to eliminate that condition mctil in 1571 -her
it eliminated the sects?
A Restate that.
** — c ~ ' e r '^trds ’.hat, i f anything, vas done
t-j v*e company to eliaiiate this disr-aritv effect
on blacks before 1971?
A Ye had an extensive pro gran of trying to
identify deficiencies in academic accomplishment
and advise people and we established night schools
lor remedial courses to improve the academic accom’
plishment 01 the 'eople who were already there for
promotion. But it was through classroom work and
also assist with some local programs.
Q You didn't do anything for tho people who
were trying to get in as now employees?
A No.
Q Isn't it a fact that the screen test v/as
eliminated before 1971?
A In pay groups one through eight.
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Q No, I mean, you gave the screen test to
determine whether or not a person would he
employed, at all, didn't you?
A Yes.
Q And this was different from the test you
gave to determine whether or not a person was
going to he promoted? Weren't there two different-
tests?
A There were two different tests.
Q And I am asking you, isn't it a fact you
did eliminate the screen test before 1971? In
March?
A We eliminated, it for pay groups one through
ight July 14, 1969. We didn't eliminate it for
pay groups nine through fifteen until larch, 1971.
Q Are you saying to me, Mr. Phelps, you didn't
eliminate the screen test for the groups over pay
group eight until March, 1 9 7 1?
A ve used the screen test, --eroral -jgrturity
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Q All right, that ■wasn't .llnifia'ied at all
for then or.til 1971?
A H a t is correct.
THE COURT: Recess until 1 :30.
(Court as in recess iron
12 sOO o'clock until 1:30 P. II.)
THE COURT: Mr. Phelps I believe was
on the stand.
MR. ADAMS: Yes.
Mr. Phelps, I believe you nay be
familiar with Defendant's Exhibit It?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you tell us v/hat it is?
A This is the comparison of the break-out
from this print-out submitted on August 12, 1971.
The total number of employees with high school edu
cation by seniority date and race. We have two sets
of figures there, number of years, less than one
year so that it includes 8-13-70 to December, 1970.
The small figures presented in your exhibit and
v/e took the sane print-out and these large figures
is where my staff counted those things from the
& % ^ < X
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same print-out.
Q In other words you say your large figures
are what the correct figures should show?
A That is the correct figures. That is where
the ones we v/ent back and took this print -out and
counted them.
Q Did you say there was some error in the
mint-out?
rs and we comae tec
the
A Yes, sir, there were er
those on the side.
3 Yea. tcci into considers
raking j m r m rsir.ns m iris *rhi>iti
3 I show you — th is purports to show
th® number of blacks in terms of their seniority
in the company ranging from one year to
eight years?
A That is correct.
Q And it gave a grand total of the number of
blacks and tho number of blacks with hi h uohool
education and tho number whiton and tho m H v of
whites vdth high ochool education and a ,m and
of employees, that in on Pago >\, In I,lint o» uoxM f
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Cmts K. C-zmfucs?
-O' Fjd.l-.t " -• ... tr
A Yes.
* :r. Frelps, would you read the figures
4»hat ..ere -he granc totals that were given by
our exhibit and then read the grand totals given
in your correction?
A Total number of blacks your exhibit 923
and number ox blacks with high school education
420.
MR. ADAMS* Just a minute. Judge,
that is on Page 4.
THE COURT* I have it.
Q Go ahead.
A The number of whites 1,601, number of whites
high school education 1395* That is your figures.
My figures, number of blacks 92?, number of blacks
with high school education 423, number' of whites
1624 and number of whites with high school educa
tion 1437. The grand total, your figures 2524 and
my figure 2551.
Q All right, Mr. Phelps, from both sots of
figures there seem to be a substantial number of
whites with high school education compared with
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
blacks, is that not correct? >ar n-'- .rites
with high school educations?
A Yes, sir,
Q Even under both sets of figures, is that
correct?
A That is correct,
Q Actually there isn't a hundred people
variation in either one of the figures out of
a total of 2,000 and some odd people?
A The number of blacks variation four and
the number of black high school education three
and the number of whites 23 and I believe we have
the number of whites with high school education
look like about kZ.
Q I will show you your exhibit which deals
with a summary of p'lantwide bidding from 1-1-71
to 10-1-71 and a summary of departmental bidding
from 1-1-71 to 10-1-71 and are you familiar with
those?
A Yes.
Q Now, Mr. Phelps, in the Exhibit 1 which
deals with departmental bidding from 1-1-71 on
your page on Central Stores, that is the first
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409 Federal Building
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page, there are no blacks which bid for a job
in that department and in fact only one person
bid it and he was white, is that not correct?
A There was two other people in the — two
blacks In the department which could have bid
on the job and they did not.
Q But that doesn’t show on this particular
sheet?
A No.
Q Now, in the Construction Department, is
that a predominantly white department?
A I don't know what the ratio is. I wouldn’t
say It was predominantly white or predominantly
black.
Q All right. But there were no jobs open in
that department at all during that period of time?
A No.
Q All right, in the Electrical Department
which is the third page, the job openings for
period were two, Is that right?
A 'That is correct.
Q And those jobs paid .j&.lO an hour?
A That is correct. Those jobs were electricians,
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
1 called for skilled electricians, people who were
2 trained.
3 Q And both of those jobs were awarded to
4 whites?
5 A That*s correct, both of then are skilled
6 electricians.
7 And in the Foundry reparians at which is —
i has - large n e n r i n : ' rr c~ clacks yea rcscT.
9 'is':cs ci rsbs 15 ansi yerc bar a sc sal carreer
m =- she fr rs, 1 . is c s s e s r a c * '
13 A That is correct.
12 1 And the lensmi dards yes shew roe let
13 opening and six persons bid or. is and err rlar.b
14 got the job?
15 A That is correct.
16 Q And inspection. Is that net m i l s h ' v
17 a white department?
18 A It is predominantly s Mto*
19 Q There wore no job,- ojvn and no y^vooo
20 bid on it?
21 A That 1 n om i I , .
22 Q rnlmmioiy, m ijmli \ w h U o
23 do paj-liman l,v
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Federal Court Reporting Company
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A I don't know. The best I can recall
there are eight or ton whites and three or
four blacks.
Q All :lght, but no jobs — one job open
and no one bid on it, is that right?
A That was on a departmental basis. That
job has been bid plantwide.
Q I see. It was bid after this tally.
Who got the job, a black man or a white
man?
A A black man.
Q What department was he in?
A Inspection.
Q He came out of the inspection department?
A Yes.
Q And that is a predominantly white depart
ment?
A That is correct.
Q And in maintenance, is it ret — x? that
not a predoaiiar-vly a -hitc
A It would-be wh Hr#* then
Q And you hhd ,'elv, onvn and you h&d .'cur
bids on thorn and two white jvwuont <h„> t
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
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A Again we had to have a skilled lay-out
man. That is correct.
Q la the 'hitler Eerartsaent I think: yctr shew
73 jcks ccer. c taurtrg the lire xrc hi era vara 2?-
•rs ir^a ret _x rf a rt ehs
3 hcrld you ray from looting at this srhixit,
Mr. Phelps* that any clacks rot ;hbs cc na~ 2----?
number in departments \*idi were rro vierely -rs~
dominantly white as compared with ~ob crerints
in dapartments tnat were previously "neccriaarc'*”
black?
A State that again.
Q I say from your looking at this exhibit
could you state to the Court whether ^
got any significant ■
merits that wore predominantly **
with jobs that th«j •>; ■ . .
predominantly black?
a Tho b lack ., w r . . mi.............. . Mil i m . . . . . „ 11 .
intho department,, „h,„„ |,|„n ......
blank than HI,ay w.i, „ „ l ..............ny m m ,n aA - M i vmM n
w h ite .
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
Q Mr. Phelps, are you familiar with the
government determination that there was — a
decision that there was probable cause to believe
the testing system at ACIPCO --ms in violation of
Title Til?
k I heard discussions, opinions.
Q You never saw the document stating that?
A No.
Q Tas there any discussion you had with
anybody in v/hich the decision was made to abandon
the tests anytime after 1966?
A Counsel advised us to abandon it in Parch,
1971.
Q Yes, sir. But there was no discussion about
abandoning it after the EEOC decision on the testing,
was there?
A None that I am aware of.
Q And I believe you said the tests were put
in upon tho recommendation of a consulting group?
A That is correct.
Q And that was Ernst & Ernst?
That is correct.
Well, now, was there not also
% O
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
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tion given to the recommendation of Dr. Brimm
about putting in the tests?
A That — I don't know that. That was
handled at management level. Any recommendations
or change of policy was.
Q Do you know about the recommendations of
Dr. Brimm of the Department of Defense that you
had to give tests to blacks as well as whites?
A I have some on it.
Q Was that before or after the decision of
Ernst & Ernst Company?
A Ernst & Ernst decision was in the fall of
1955• The program started in January of 1966 and
Dr. Brimm's first visit I recall was somewhere
in 1963*
Q So it wasn't the determination of Br. Brimm
that you put in testing to control the company but
it was Ernst & Ernst recommendation in 1955?
A That was handled by management, I can't
answer that.
Q Didn't you testify earlier, Mr. Phelps,
that Ernst & Ernst recommended that they start
the testing?
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A It was established. There was a recommenda
tion made to management.
Q And they followed it, is that right?
A On the testing. I don't know the complete
recommendations. Yes, they followed it as far
as I know.
Q Mr. Phelps, have you had blacks to come
to you asking to /e them an opportunity for
a job?
A Yes.
Q Has that been constant throughout the years
you have been in your position?
A Yes, and again —
Q And you told them they couldn’t get any
further than the test requirement?
A I don't remember saying that.
Q That is a fact, isn't it?
A Many people came to see us, came to see
me about test scores, about counseling for remedial
work and what would it take to improve their skills
for a particular job over a long period of time.
I advised many people white and black. Wo main
tained materials to advise people.
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Q All right. Mr. Phelps» you can state
to me, if you know, what was the reason that
tests were not given to blacks when toots we re
ordered, to be given to whites at ACIPCO?
A I can’t answer that. I can state only
that the requirement was established prior to
my getting there in office.
Q Now, when did you say you took over there?
A In 1956.
Q And the policy was established in 1955?
A It was established — wait a minute.
State that question again.
Q I say what was the reason that it was
decided to give tests to whites at the very
beginning instead of giving them to blacks?
A Prior to 1956 we had required a high school
education of the whites and not of the blacks.
Q But the point is, what I am trying to get
is, Mr. Phelps, why did they make the differentia
tion back at that time?
A I don’t recall.
Q The first time tests were given to whites
was back in what year?
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A January in 1956 to management and super
vision.
Q All right, and you don't know — you
can't tell us why it was given to whites instead
of blacks?
A That's right.
Q But you were in charge of the testing
program at that time?
A No, sir, Mr. Harden Walker wa3 in charge
of the test program with Ernst & Ernst. I was
working under him.
Q And you worked under him?
A Yes, sir, under him.
Q But you don't know the reason?
A No, sir.
Q Was that ever discussed before the testing
was put in for blacks in 1964?
A I don't recall any discussion.
MR. ADAMSt That's all.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Forman) Mr. Phelp3, you were
asked about what efforts were made, if any, after
Federal Court Reporting Company ̂ ^ ■
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama ft
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o'ag initial "testing of the blacks in December*
196̂ 4 to help them achieve improved scores. V/ill
you state to the Court what efforts the company
put forth in that regard?
A After the testing program had developed and
there were four or five hundred people that had
been tested, there was obvious deficiencies in
some areas of education and ability in the groups.
The company re-emphasized night school and also
prepared to take people into some general educa
tion through the ICS courses. The apprentice
supervisors and others talked to the people that
needed some remedial work and we had groups that
we talked with and explained to them how this work
could be purenased through the company at a discount
and supervised by an apprentice supervisor and it
would all be taylored towards general education.
That was one program and special courses in
our night school were taylored for remedial work
where some of our night schools had been princi
pally taylored toward acquiring skills in some
trade or some advanced knowledge but there was
some remedial courses included in our night school
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and established for these needs.
There was people that come to see us —
I was really thinking about the Urban League
and asked us to identify people to work with and
provide then with names of candidates where they
could provide additional education for the people.
Myself and the Training Director did quite a bit
remedial counseling. We purchased some materials
to measure the areas of deficiency and the educa
tion required entering schools. Along with our
testing program after we had gotten into that we
identified some people that had some abilities
that we suggested they develop further and improve
on and we advised those people. We identified
quite a few people.
Q Did both black and the white take advantage
of some night courses for a while?
A Yes, sir.
Q What happened to the night school after a
period of time?
A There seemed to be a complete lack of inter
est. I don't know the figures but it went for a
Year or two and — just lack of interest, people
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quit going;.
Q Were you able through the test program
to identify black talent people with a parti
cular talent, black employees?
A Yes.
Q And have you worked with those at all?
A Yes, we have. We identified some and
recognized skills they had and were able to
place them in some areas where they could per
form to their fullest potential.
Last October I made up a list from the
file that was then on hand of test scores of the
current people and picked out I think about 1̂ 1
young men that had the agility and ability to
climb and to learn the mechanical trades and we
were in hopes — we hoped to put them in a situa
tion where they could acquire the mechanical ability.
These people had not made the score then required
on mechanical aptitude tests. They had made the
score on the general maturity test but we thought
by putting these people in that area they would
acquire that mechanical ability and would be put
into the apprentice program.
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Q What is the company’s requirement insofar
as residence in a department before you can enter
the apprentice program?
A An employee has to be in the department
and on the trade to be filled six months before
he is — can bo approved. He has got to have
six months in the department in the skill.
Q Has that been true of the whites and blacks?
A That is correct.
Q Mr. Phelps, did the company offer an
opportunity for a person to take the test again?
A Yes, after each year.
Q You have had some employees who continued
to try to improve themselves, correct?
A Correct.
Q Let me ask you —
I would like to have this identified as
Defendant’s Exhibit 17.
You had some extracts of Defendant’s Exhi
bit 17, extracts from the file of negro employees
vrho are row lead men?
A Yes, he is a lead Ran. In August, 156*4 he
took a screen test and did very poor. He took the
Cj £{ £ Cl
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Federal Court Reporting Company
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test again in December, 196^ and his areas of
weaknesses were noted and he took — and he
made a very low score. In March, 1966 his
score had improved considerably four times.
And in May, 1967 his score was still about the
same and December, 1968 again his score improved
considerably. This is a young fellow that
attended the projects of Urban League.
Q And the letter there is from the Urban
League?
A Yes, sir, this is the letter from the Urban
League.
Q And stating that he had completed those
courses successfully?
A That is correct, this is a letter from
Mr. Arthur Shores and Mr. temds mite, to Mr.
Frank Coupland congratulating Curtis on his
achievement.
3 Curtis Uaddy?
A Yes, sir.
Q Mr. Phelps, you have white employees who
also did not score well initially and continued
to work at it and improve themselves and finally
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achieved the requisite level?
A Y03.
MR. FORMANi Identify this as Defen
dant’s Exhibit 18.
Let me ask you to look at this De
fendant’s Exhibit 18 and ask you if that is an
extracb from the personnel file of Herman Brasher?
A That is correct.
Q A white employee?
A That is correct.
Q And he has — he had a screen test in August,
I960, a mental maturity in December, I96I4, a mental
maturity in March of ’66, again March of ’67, again
April of ’68 and May, *69. And in May of '69 he
made the fifty percentile score. Prior to that
he had not made the fifty percentile and then on
June 18 he took the mechanical aptitude test and
made the fifty percentile.
Q And he is in what —
A Ha Is In the Machine Shop.
Q He is In the Machine Shop and he nrcseeded
to>rards a machinist craft?
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A Towards a craftsman rate, machinist.
Q Are those two examples of people who have
perservered and tried to improve themselves and
have succeeded in doing it?
A That's correct.
Q Have the "black and white employees been
treated alike in this regard?
A Yes.
MR. FORMANt I believe that's all.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Adams) Mr. Phelps, at one time
these positions were not open to blacks, is that
correct?
A That is correct.
Q What year was that?
A I don't know that date.
Q One of the persons who testified that the
classes were segregated at one time. Do you know
anything about that?
A That is correct.
Q And when was that?
A I can't answer that.
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Q Could you give us your best judgment? When
were the classes started?
A The night school started 55 years ago.
Q Roughly when did they open them up to
blacks?
A I am going to have to gues around about
%6b or ’ 65 or '66, I can't answer that.
Q Could you give us an idea hoy/ long they
continued to be segregated in terms of months or
years?
A They ran two or three years.
Q They ran two or three years segregated?
A They were started about fifty years ago
and then they were segregated and then they were
mixed sometimes like I told you *611, '65 or *66
and then they wore open to both races until they
were closed.
Q I am trying to understand from you roughly
how many years wore they segregated if you have
any judgment?
A Well, from the time — there were no blacks
to my knowledge — you see, I can't answer way back
then but I understand it started over fifty years
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ago and to my knowledge the black and whites
were in the same class sometime in '64, '65 or
'6 6 . Prior to that I don't know. They were
not in the same class.
Q Are you saying then that they were not
open to blacks before 1 964?
A No, sir.
Q So they opened them up to blacks sometime
in —
A '64 or '6 5 .
Q And I am asking you was it on a segregated
basis at that time when they opened thea up to
blacks at that time in 1964?
A There was some classes open up for remedial
work and there were more blacks in them or maybe
blacks in all of them and there was some remedial
work in mathematics and communicative schools that
were predominantly black. Some of the advanced
classes — I can't answer that, I don't have
that information.
Q What you are saying is you don’t know
how long they were segregated after 1964?
A No, I don’t.
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Q And when were they discontinued?
A I couldn't say whether 1969 or '68. I
can't answer that.
Q And further do you have any knowledge
from your experience and from your travels and
from your educational qualifications as to
whether or not blacks score less favorably on
tests of the nature you gave at ACIPCO than
whites?
A I have information that at .CIPCO they
scorod less — they didn't make as high score
as the whites. I have heard professionals, Dr.
Bennett and Dr. Cantrell and others state the
same thing. I didn't have any access to their
work but they were professionals and they stated
that.
MR. ADAMS: That's all.
MR. FORMAN: If the Court please,
one earlier exhibit I was trying to identify and
I will need Mr. Phelps to identify it. This is
in lieu of Defendant's Exhibit k,
Mark this, please, as Defendant's
"7 0 A ~oZ.
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Federal Court Reporting Company
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Birmingham, Alabama
Exhibit 19.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (By Mr. Forman) Mr. Phelps, let me ask
you to look at what has been identified as
Defendant's .Exhibit 19 and I ask you whether
that is a correction of information set out
on Defendant's Exhibit If- in view of the employ
ment records?
A Yes. This is a further correction and the
corrections are identified.
MR. FORMANt That's all.
MR. ADAMS* That’s all.
(Witness excused. )
THE COURT: Next witness.
Mi.- FRANK H. COUPLAND.
called as a witness, being duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows *
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q (I?y Mr. Forman) State your name, please.
A Frank H. Coupland.
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Q You have already been on the stand in
this case?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Coupland, could you briefly, without
trying to go over any of the territory already
covered state the nature of the ACIPCO corporate
organization?
Eagan, who was the founder of the company and
who acquired all the common stock during his
lifetime died, he had a codicil to his will
which stated that the common stock would be
placed in trust to be voted by the Board of
Trustees. This Board of Trustees would consist
of the Board of Management and the Board of
Operatives. The Board of Operatives being 12
people elected by popular vote from six districts
in the plant. They would form the Foard of Trustees
to vote the common stock which would in term elect
the Board of Directors and the Boa: 1 of Directors,
of course, would operate the company as any other
corporation is operated by a Board of Directors.
A Board of Management, five men were elected
A Yes. We are a trust. In 1924 when Mr
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409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
to serve in the interim periods between the
meetings of the Board of Directors and operate the
plant. This Board of Management was a, you might
say, an executive committee out of the Board of
Directors.
Q Mr. Coupland, are there any public stock
holders?
A None.
Q Would you state briefly your work experience
at ACIPCO?
A Yes, I was employed at ACIPCO in February,
1935 as a mechanic’s helper in the Repair Depart
ment.
I worked in the Repair Department for a period
of eight years. I worked as a mechanic and then
I was made a lead man and then I was made an
Assistant Superintendent of the department. And
at the end of the eight year period I was trans
ferred to the Foundry Department where I worked
for a period of approximately four years. I was
Assistant Superintendent of the Foundry and the
Foundry Superintendent.
In 1950 I was transferred to the ,’orks
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409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
l-rom 195° to 1952 and in 1952 I was made Works
Manager of the company and became a member of
tne Board of Management and the Board of Directors
of the company.
In 1955 I v/as elected a Vice-President of
the company, the position I now hold.
Q As Works Manager are you in direct charge
of the Production and Service Units of the corp
oration?
A Yes, I head up the manufacturing division
of our company.
Q The Personnel Office is under you?
A Yes.
Q Training and selection — selection and
training of personnel under your supervision?
A Yes.
Q Would you state briefly if you will the
hiring requirements of the company. You have been
in h.-:re when Mr. Phelps testified and I don't intend
to reiterate what he said but generally what has
been the i quirements for hiring of white hires
and black hires?
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
A Well, when I first went on the job as
Works Manager back in 1952, at that time we were
requiring a high school education for white hires.
We required a physical examination for black hires.
Of course, we required a physical examination also
for the white hires. And this was done and no
change that I remember up until the time that v/e
employed Ernst & Ernst to come into our plant,
a management consulting group, to do three things,
one, was to look at our employment procedures, our
training and our upgrading and promotion, realizing
that if we were to remain strong v/e had to train
our people and we had to make a selection of people
that could be trained.
We also wanted to make a complete cost study
of our operations and this was another part of the
work to be done.
And then in addition to the cost v/e wanted
to have a complete survey made of our Maintenance
Departments to set up a preventive maintenance
program.
Those v/e re the throe things that were to
be done by Ernst & Ernst and this v/as in the fall
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409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama 528
of 1955.
Q '.mat program was instituted then? Give us
the background.
A Well, in Decombe , 1955 Hr. Harden alker
who was selected by the firm to head up the person
nel phase of it recorner.ded to the Beard of Fanage-
sent that we have a testing program for all of our
supervision, all levels of supervision from the
President all the way down to the first line
Foreman. And that he valuate these people to see
if we had the people who were capable of perform
ing the jobs they were on and if they needed
additional training and what should be done.
He also suggested that we have an opinion
survey made of all of our employees to get the
thinking of our employees and this was done.
He started the test work with the manage
ment and the supervision in January, 1956. He
started with the management, and Mr. Daniel and
I were the first two and Mr. Donahoo who was
formerly our Chief Metallurgist were the first
three to take the tests. This was in January,
1956.
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409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama 529
Then he moved on through the other members
of management and down through all levels of
supervision. And after he finished with the
supervision he suggested that we be more selective
in our candidates for apprenticeship or in the
skills of our plant and he thought that a test
program would be applicable here and it v/as at
this point that he recommended that we use tests
for apprentice candidates along with requiring a
high school education.
Q Bid he identify the tests t~ be used?
A Yes, he worked with us as a ccsec1tans
for approximately eight norths as I recall and
during this period of tire he race*— seeded shat
we put in the testing program for the apprentice
cans^sates and tsose people who would he selected
for the skills.
Then he continued to — continued on with
the thought that we should be more selective in
our candidates and at that time we were employing
we started later to employ the white hires with
a high school education and the screen test.
i ,r. Coupland, as a member of management did
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
you have occasion to deal with the representatives
of the President's Equal Employment Opportunity
Committee?
A Yes.
Q And the Office of the Federal Contract Com
pliance?
A Yes •
Q What was the first contact you had with
them?
A The first contact we had, of course, was
in 1963 with Dr. Hugh Brimm. Of course, we
received information about the President's Execu
tive Order IO925 when it was put into effect and
we immediately began to take steps to comply with
that .Executive Order.
Q Would you relate to the Court what steps
were taken and when they were taken?
A One of the first things vie did as pointed
out by Mr. Phelps, we changed our rate progression
schedule in I believe September, 1961 whore we
eliminated any reference to race. And we began
to do other things such as to re-eve signs around
the plant where we had colored and white and we
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409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
■began to do the things we knew we should do as
staged in the Executive Order and then we began
to seek advice and counsel from other people in
the trade associations and we attended meetings
and seminars trying to find out what we should do
to be in compliance.
But it was in November, 1963 that a letter
was filed with the President’s Committee on lajual
Employment Opportunity and a complaint was filed
and Dr. Hugh Brimm contacted us in December, 1963
and asked — stated he was coning to our plant to
make a compliance review. It was on December
1963 that v/e had the first compliance review,
3 Would you state what examination m s rads
by Dr. Hugh Brim?
A Yes, he Bade a tear of car plant and the
c o m lair t that we has visa files ry hr. rsrr,
•teas not qualified to fill this posit!
the complaint that Dr. Brim states v:
there that he would like to sake a ce
—____ t ^ cSLi
lie he 'as
plete compliance
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
review, tour our plant and look at our facilities
and see what needed to be done to be in compliance
and he made a tour of the plant and also he talked
with Mr. Wrenn and then after his discussion with
f/ir. Wrenn and. after the compliance review he looked
at our employment practice and the thing that
seemed to bother him the most was that we did
not do the same thing for both white and black
hires. Ho stated that we would have to do the
same for both. We were requiring a high school
education and a screen test for white hires and
only a physical examination for the black hires.
He said it would have to be the same to be in com
pliance.
Q And did the company change its policy and
require the same of both?
A Yes, he asked — Mr. Daniel was out of
our plant at that time and he asked that I talk
to Mr. Daniel and if we decided what we would —
what wo should do or what wo were going to do
to let hi:: know because he did not want to tui
in. his resort until such tire as ha knew That
v 'j '-ere o la min*' to do o
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama 533
Q Did you come to some decision?
A Yes, we he called and asked what
decision had been made and we told him that
we felt we — in order to try to maintain the
highest stanoard we had in the past on employ
ment, that v/e should adopt the standard that we
had for the ’whites applicants, that would be a
high school education and a screen test so we
adopted that policy and required that it be for
both, black and white hires*
Z And ■',id he take any exc satis s so shah?
-S. • : ■ *T 'A ’To, he sals ____
did the ss-1 for both - - s war
he wanted to dcrbl* share ns
e , as ssng ss -ve
rssrs s x r
1C525?
been filed arn. he had
he sailed a~ain and thic
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'sas in 19^1 and he said than he had another letter
tliat had been written to the President or the Presi-
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama 53;i
dent’s Committee complaining about job opportunities
at ACIPCO and. that he wanted to come back and talk
v/i th us again about it and he needed more informa
tion. That this complaint had been filed by Mr.
V/renn also.
Q Did he return to the plant?
A Yes.
Q When was that?
A He came back to the plant in June, 196*1
and he made another visit of the plant and talked
to , r. v/renn at that time and while he was there
he talked to us about our test and reviewed the
tests we were giving for both colored and '-hide
applicants and he also rads tear of the slant
looking at the restrooms, the radical daeartaeno
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fee >ad to I00&
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1 it that hire had the ©er—jar*' i'nr~:
the hare r r uira^ents f©— - - •—?-g eyeas
at it required for white e ,1:
f / f
. : Ol
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Birmingham, Alabama
A Yes. We explained to him that this is
what we wore going to do and he said that v/ould
be in compliance* And v/e tried — we were try~
ing to find out what we needed to do to be in
compliance and we felt that in working with the
compliance officer was the best way in which we
could find out what we should do and what was
required of us and we were diligent in trying
to do that and we followed their advice and
counsel.
535
Q Kr. Coupland, following that contact with
~r. Brim did you have further contact -with -'La
relative to the institution, of the achievement
level prograss?
A Yen, '-re nalheo to tlx abort the - - - = :
1' ex ’ ’hen vo ehej
eve the teste
t " search af ter rs vy- - - — - -
c m e r erect _s ts1. vb
— * - * s were
' *nr s r ns.na a'tut r.:v ve ctulc :est
iryang to find some
scientific approach If = eeuld vhsrshy v; cool
tat# the dcoi'lcn arsay free ar innlvif-ral, a a
tf ' -hyect* art felt that the test pro tea®
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409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
might be a way to do this. But v/e realized that
the cut-off score, the national norm, which was
fiity percentile was too high for the jobs that
v/e had in our plant and did not require a man to
have an educational level that high. So we de
cided. if wo could talc© one hundred of our people *
a cross section of our people in the plant that
were doing the jobs that v/e had in our plant and
test them, not take the exceptional performer or
poor performer but take the average performer and
test; them and whatever score they made that score
would be the maximum score v/e would require for that
particular job. For example, if a man was doing a
job satisfactory and he scored in the ten percentile.
that is all we would require for that particular
job. And when we tasted — selected a group of
one hundred people, 75 blacks and 22 whites ar„d
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512
you made from results of that test of the first
people put onto the pay schedule?
A That 's right.
Q And that appears on Defendant's Exhibit 15
under column AL?
A That's right.
Q When was that program put into effect?
A As I recall that was put into effect — I
don't know that I can remember it exactly but I
believe as I recall it was in December, 1964. I
believe it was December 28, 1964 if I remember the
correct date.
Q Did this achievement level apply both to
black and white employees alike?
A Yes, it applied to all of our employees.
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and "the Board of Operatives and "to our supervision
and explained to them what wo had done and why
and we explained tho achievement level and how
it was to operate.
Q And if the person — employee did not
desire to take the test v/hat then?
A He did not have to take the test and ho
could continue on the job he was on. And we
sat up achievement levels and if he was in
achievement level, for example, 3 or 2 and he
~vas an lay Grade ?, Achievement level 2, he amid,
progress v; to lay ^ra is 5 In. that achi-everranr
Isvel art he would harre re cake a scans in. tie
Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Brmngham, Alabama
533
X. he' he name hack in -Turn 1 'e'.lre l'I-*
1 he Here it was on hie next visit after we rut
it into effect -and well, it was in 1905 I guess,
v/hen he came back he reviewed it and as I recall
maybe it was May of 1965 and he thought it was an
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excellent idea and he told me and othors in
management that he thought this was a fair v/ay
to approach it and one of the best systems ho
had seen in the companies he had visited on
Federal Court Reporting Company
409 federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
compliance review and he also told me he had
recommendsi it to other government contractors
in his area.
; T ?rr«ne rn.ee any rcccnncrist isms' a i m a
ccmrcrmsati-cm -if the sr mu*
539
progrsn, and that world be signad by each employee
orp 1 airing the testing program and also carrying
his achievement level and explaining what he would
have to do to move up the line from the point where
he was.
Q Did you make that explanation?
A Yes, I made a talk to all the employees
in the plant.
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Q H-ow was that presented to the employees,
Mr. Co upland?
A Wo presented it in the form of slides and
by explaining it. We put a slide on the board
and we had some 21 slides to give the information
and as they went on the board I explained it
personally to all employees.
MK. FORMANi Let me ask that this
be identified as Defendant’s Exhibit 20.
Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
let me hand you what has been ident;
fae'J as Defendant’s Exhibit ir-her 20 ant I 'ill
ask you whether that is the write-
yew ';eve -1 t - she slides
— — >
-"ST'
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people as he had related it to un.
Q And you quoted Ilr. Brimm in your talk
a3 appears in this Exhibit Number 20?
A , That is correct.
HE. FGR'IAHt V?e introduce that in
evidence if the Court please.
"r. Co upland, as part of the ieshisr
program was the er.pleyes — did he fears the -irrh
as he res asses ?
14
A vs, a realls.se many of s
hbsy * '-2 she hast
irprsh's hhenselvss ass hash is srs
hiah -re asset re serif fa. Ari vs.
-vyass -raest
a fsrsh his* vsrii he -his as
-Sirs
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employees they coals' be hashes every year arc
hor re arrives ah that was we went hs the pecrle
"ho prepared the test and asked then her such tire
v/e should have between the tire the person was tested
and retested where he night improve himself and up
grade his score and they suggested to us t- ive
months. So v/e se’■ it up on a yearly basis where
by one who had taken the test twelve months later
could take it again.
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Birmingham, Alabama
Q Following this explanation of the program
to the employees did the company institute any
piogram to assist the employees to upgrade them-
selves?
A Yes. V/g felt that we should do everything
v/e could to help upgrade our employees to bo
able to move up in the jobs and we had had a
night school program at ACIPGO for some fifty
years or longer and up until that time wo had
not had night school cla ves for white people
in technical subjects mostly and we had a class
in religious education for cur black: a wleyooe.
wa
'CuXf proTids a elare fee ee une — ~!er a .3— -?xr
of fiftaar er a • aery peerla. If we earl: tsav
A,ed we leaf lead a colic;/ e ar tea years ehaa -;e
'7 * rearsse tbb a: *-T j :
r i d e a
>'ocaeicngl li .-icier a- •
“ - — T7 ee_
a c® g t
12-0 * fen re aa re.ee our rlger schorl rrerrur
re talree with 2r* Brim about the nig.ee school
program whereby v/e could upgrade cur people or
^elp our people to make higher scores on the test
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409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama 5'0
and we had one year of night school on a segre
gated basin. Thai v/as in "the winter or the torro
of *64 - *65. airing that period v/o had 1X6
white and 134 blacks in night school on a segre
gated oasis. 'The reason we did it on a searegatad
sasxs is we thought it night work own hotter that
"-"37 and we discussed it with Dr. 2ri~r. o felo
"ter jot ere teaching sight ccrccl 700 *a-’o e terra
that jea ere trying re reach, easel* iron e -11 rr ̂
l-r lv 1- tt no a cider la -1 rf e r x s n r c act
re- rTccrsht this v tdd he the :*ert arproart. era
ran in the fell of 15I5 vher. we rent nor no
night school —e integrated the right school end
vre only had one veer segrerated. In 1965 - '55
we had 32 whites end 22 blacks. e rad a total
of 52 in night school as compared with 25c the
previous year.
Then in 19^7 we cate back again on an inte
grated basis and v/e ha.d one hundred and thirty—four
whites and twelve blacks.
Then in 1968 again we had 92 whites and 19
blacks.
Then in 19^9 v/e had 109 v/hites and 10 blacks
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400 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
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and it v/aa at that point that v/e didn’t fool
that v/e v/ere reaching our people an y/o should
and in talking with our training director v/e
decided the best way to approach cur training
for people was on an individual haste and -*/e
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of the achievement level program, did they later
nake a detemir. .tion to eliminate the achievement
level for Pay Groups 1 through 0?
A Yes, sir.
Q V/ould you state the occasion for that?
A Yes, in studying our pay groups and in
talking v/ith other people in our industry and
in the metal inductsy we had 23 pay rates and
we had moving from one pay rate to another we
had just a small increase in cents cor hour.
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409 Federal Building
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And we felt that what v/e needed to do was to
consolidate some of these pay grades and reduce
them in number. So we did reduce it to fifteen
pay groups and at that time we also eliminated
any test requirements on jobs one through eight.
V/e did that primarily because v/e had had so much
talk and complaining about the fact that people
were having difficulty making the test score wo
had set up in the ten percentile and, of course,
in the twenty percentile and the thirty percentile
so v/e decided that — management decided at that
time that v/e would eliminate any tost requirement
from Fay Grades ono tr ough eight and jus t an teal !y
put the man on the job to see if he could do it.
If he could do the job we would give hi.- a jo a.
And we started that in February, in - •
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a-' Growvs 1 thronrn ' or s ..vge.-.
renal' eo or 5 far ough 1> to
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However, wo very seldom if over employed
anyone in Pay Groups 9 through 15 because it has
-sen our policy over the years as far back as I
can remember that wo try to promote from within.
</e do not go outside seeking talent if wo can
tra m people and upgrade people and of course
in March of this year we eliminated all tests.
Q fne elimination of the high school require
ment and the screen test in July, 1969 brought
about what?
A Well, we at that time were trying to cooperate
a m work with the group in firm!r.gham or hard cere.
;a wanted to da our part ao an employer in Sir-Ira-
aam and we realised too that 00 had rot oe*o eh ho
to ezglsgr tree r*wc*r of hi acre that *-o thornm ■«*
oho-hhd crplo-/ vitfe oer prceort trtar-fs-fe*
** * o-:r reeordo -meer eta rarre
fo-er or fir*, yearn ,-o found teat ** ran re- _o
tea amheyraco: prcotica reachrfr*r a -orraet: -rrc
a.ro tea fact feat -we weea tryira; to raho m e in.
tea 'card 'gore pregrar and emyl-rysf cor* serf
P-Od re fo'cne otffc the ore?; -v* employed floret have
a hi^i school education and re felt if we v-ere
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going to employ these people and put them into
our plant, that this would not be fair to people
who made application to us for jobs that couldn't
pass the test.
So management decided at that timo wo would
eliminate the test requirements from one through
eight and employ the people with just passing a
physical examination#
Q VLr. Coupland, there has been testimony
about pay scales and would you state to the
Coart how doss samgcrnsrct go about dote- ining
•■•hat: r ts of pay it rill pay for aorta ir j o to ?
A ;e b̂ 7^ of
** too ô'ô r
A 're rate oo os it tea It arretsad of oorr
- voter eo C'e-rar* our aarLcryasait
arefery era been or of ~: .e aoozrfa-
t'a ha'-'a toe® '- a taro of o :.r loavro of losrzai
0 rarer e.o
e.nd f ro r’r it-eo- Tor, wo Para
..ad vhites or. toe Scarf of fperstires wot they
wcvld be so-bars of the searo cf OporatiTes but
at the present tine we have no blades so we have
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1 two whites from the Board of Operatives and we
2 have two blacks who arc selected based on the
3 number of votes they received in the Board of
4 Operatives election, the most recent election.
5 The Assistant Works Manager, myself and
6 the department head involved where the rate is
7 being considered and we meet on all rates. No
8 rates are set at ACIPCO except by this committee.
9 Any change that is made in the rates is made by
10 this committee. And when jobs are changed or
11 the duties of the job are changed it is brought
12 to this committee for study and evaluation.
13 Our practice has been ver the years to
14 use the area survey in Birmingham, our industry
15 survey in the pipe industry and the national
16 foundry survey nationwide in setting o;r rates.
17 Then if we have job that are ;nn::inr
00T-« to the standard jobs In our industry or in the
19 foundry industry then v/e would have our industrial
20 engineering department to go into the plant and
21 make a job evaluation of that particular job.
22 furnishing the information to the rate committee
23 and then the rate committee would take the area
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survey and the job evaluation and all the
information that wa3 furnished them and from
that would make a decision on what the rate
should bo in establishing new rates.
Q Mr. Coupland, have you had a chart wade
or a survey of comparison of ratas paid at the
American Cast Iron Pips Company for s ppioal jobs:
in the foundry business and corparsh Is 3 -1 “ o of oar
people competing in the same business in Birmlrr-
ham?
A Yes, sir.
Q And also nationwide?
A Yes, we used the survey of the industry
here in Birmingham because most of the cast iron
pipe is produced in this area.
Q And how do the rates at ACIPCO compare
with the rates of your competitors?
A fell, I would say o.o the hotter aide of
the labor rate it is about the seme and os the
:ou side in the rat« or the r.
if is pretty o' ose 'sos v,f> ' t rarer
a-" foe . ''oe ""Oh'o fo refer or s'* a dr
o,/ >o. hoy h' vr f-<e pee
. 21 y .o tzgtfsff
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or better than tho going rate in our industry.
MR. FORMAN* Mark this as Defendant's
Exhibit 21.
Mr. Coupland, let me ask you to look
at Defendant's Exhibit 21 and I will ask you if
you would identify that, please. '
A Yes, this is an area survey of the pipe
plants in this area. National Cast Iron Pipe,
of Tarrant City, North Birmingham Plant, TJ. S.
Pipe & Foundry Company, Bessemer Pipe Plant,
Bessemer, U. ' S. Pipe & Foundry, Alabama Pipe
Plant at Anniston, McWane Cast Iron Pipe Plant
in Birmingham and that is compared with the ACIPCO
plant.
Q Are those primarily your competitors in this
area?
A Yes.
Q And this tabulation indicates tho ACIPCO
rates are what compared with the others?
A Generally we are above the others. We would
be close at the bottom and at the top and far above
in the middle.
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MR* FORMANi Mark this an Defendant’o
'Exhibit 22.
i/tr* Coupland, will you look at v/hat
has been marked as Defendant’s Exhibit 22 and I
will ask you if you can identify that tabulation?
A fas, this is the National Foundries raocia-
tiaa which wa are a member and foundries a" 2 evsr
tha ini tad Stated sand in Ltfcrut tier shout s -;_«
same and oamiitt and ratals *u tr~ t - -*■ — - _
Lor na pas-ticifBcSe in it and aria in a
sotsyaranon of
da ~n_itad Inst an and 1
a 3S2l'
t-'d the E m k ^ s s a~era.~a and it
i.a 2 '-ny- arret*
ns Loral arrrrart
ran the hCIHJO
rates.
^ Again I w i n ask you generally how do the
ACIFGO rates compare with those other rates shown?
A a are equal or hither. I ould say in the
intermediate rates » e are usually higher.
3 hr. Coupland, does the American Cast Iron
Pipe Company furnish ary other other than the
direct wage to its employees?
A Ye3.
Q /ill you state what they are?
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A Yg s , wo have a number of benefits. It
may be described as the same but our benefits
are usually higher. We have a pension fund that
has been in existence a pension plan that has
been in existance since 1917 and we think it is
much better than anything v/o have. seen throughout
the country.
e have medical service provided for the
employees and his family and usually it in.o’t
vided for the family by other oo - series., _ - s ~.~~-
em.pl oyees.
These are two that we feel that are r ;ch
better than we have seen anywhere else in industry.
We have, of course, the group insurance plan and
v/o have a death benefit plan that we don’t see
anyone in our industry that has. If a person,
an employee dies after fifteen years of service
with our company, the spouse or the widow would
receive payments for a period of 3-- months which
would be about equal to I would say almost two
thirds pay. Tbis is d;rdrg the y,;:y o h period*.
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the spouse of an employee dies there is a
$150 cash amount paid.
We have a number of things like that
that we feel like is important in our set-up.
Q 130 y°u compare those benefits both local
v/hat is paid by local conpani s and mtix .ally
to determine what your level is?
A Yes, sir.
3 let me ask you — 1st ~e have Lz isr'-:--
as Defendant’s Exhibit 23.
V/ill you look at Defendant’s Exhibit 23
consisting of two sheets and I will ask you if
you can identify what those ar ?
A Yes, this is the national survey by the
National Foundry Association on benefits in the
foundry industry across the united States. And
we have marked in here in color where we would
be in relation to what is vhesn here.
3 Ihe first sheet says the area of 21r:ir;hs.-,
Alabama, and the other is what, is that rational?
A rational, yes#
3 gar oral ? •/ the benefits that * *e referred
to :.r 'oodoeo k'Vil'V, po/rooto onroara?
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A We are higher.
Q iir. Coupland, you made reference to a —•-
from time to time the rate committee has for loo
consideration of adjustments of individual rates
certain information that is furnished to the rate
-o._dotee for its review and use and as an example
of such information that goes to the rate committee
let me ask you to look at this next exhibit which is
Defendant's Exhibit 24.
A tnis is an area, rate survey we made on
the crane operators. We have from tiro to tine
requests that maybe a job we have in our plant
a ootid he considered for a higher rate of pa/ and
ovah wo do In • ?e try to dove loo this 1 do m o * - ,-irr
for too rate oorxuttee sod vivo it to t*xr xo moan
th^y dan rs oe er Intelligent deolaio-T-
i i k i t i t o-'o t i t o f i 'fo r r a - titx ix re ie r sr sa
fust jawtictlaw job/?
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job of scale Rian. This is compared with tf» pipe
industry in Birmingham.
3 On occasion do you have industrial £.\ri~ -ers
survey the jobs and cause a job evaluation to bs
made on a particular job?
A Yes, if wo — of course we are in competition
with the other pipe plants and v/e know that we have
to compete and our rates need to be in line and
v/e have jobs of course in our plant that are not
exactly the same as in one of the pipe — other
pipe shops. If it isn’t the s e then we have
the industrial engineers to go out ar make a
job evaluation of that particular joh and f xrr.ish
that infemation along with other irfor-atlo- shat
we night have to arrive at a ."aw rata-
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1 hr# horptand# vtu' i , v; 1 00% an ran 12a
near ramad at V>fonda't't troidht "hi aro I mli
ar r you It t*a-t an exe-"-' a af rb«- *y:a tf eorr
dona ay the Int^rtria' ar.-.lne«r and tsift?* intake, tp
the rate can../ittan far lit aarreinanavian, these
two job's being service nan. toolbar and core maker
in V/-2 Bay and the second job being D and E Bay?
A Yes, this is a survey made by industrial
Tin Of
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Federal Court Reporting Company
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engineers, Mr. Glenn Hides and Mr. David Henry,
both industrial engineers in our Industrial
Engineering Department.
Q And looking at the job evaluation attached
to the job description, do you notice that — what
factors have been evaluated — you heard Mr. Rigassio
today?
A Yes, sir.
Q I noticed the fact that he mentioned from
the witness stand today —
A Yes, air, they are exactly the
Q Mr. Coupland, is any job r-. t* oe-t *./t v ■ - •
on the race of the man who holds a joat
A ho.
Q Any jobs paid for depending on the
the nan working the job?
race of
A Ho.
Q This Defendant’s Exhibit IB, you are familiar
with Defendant's Exhibit IB?
A Yes.
Q State to the Court what that exhibit pur
ports to be.
The one on the first page?
SSL
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Q ??o* the exhibit, all of the exhibit*
A This is the progression up from the
bottom up to the top job in each department.
THE COURT* Take a rooess now. Ten
minute recess.
(Court was in recess from
3*00 p. K. until 3*15 P* M. )
THE COURTt All right.
Q (R-/ *!r. Forman) !x. Coupland* before I
go into the lines o? progression let ns ash tts
he examine defendant * s Exhibit 2~ and I wall arc
jar to state that it is?
A H i s is a jot evaluation of scar rarer arc
1 acre setters in the i'or&szst lafsaarhsent.
i That is the face sheet?
jt Yes, and the second sheet is an evaluation
ad the hhscisrlth harrteraan serr Lsesar.
3 C, £., on that second sheet it shears pro—
-ossec rate on the two jobs and no pre~ent rate,
hat is the occasion of that?
A This is something new that had to be estab
lished. We had no rate to cover it.
Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
Q And then the third sheet?
A Job evaluation of core trucker, Number 2
and Number 3 Monocast.
Q Looking on Sheet 2 it shows the present
rate of $2.83 and a proposed rate of
Do you recall whether cr ret that rote
was in fact a cut or do you know?
A No.
3 It was not cut?
A No.
MR. FORMANs We would liko to intro
duce that into evidence.
Mr. Coupland, does the occasion arise
where a rate is reduced?
A Yes, when the rate committee evaluates a
rate and there has been a change in the duties
or the requirement of the job or the roc/cr.ciet-
l l t y of the job or the physical effort or kat-
*v$r that cate ray be, ar.d we fee: it la recentar~T
to r;t V- ' -he, the pre/Tr'ce •• t r r t -at t:ne
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would retain that high rate until ouch a
time they would move to another job or what
ever the case may he and anyone coming to the
new rate would stop at the new rate, coming
up to the new rate would stop at the new rate
hut those holding the old rate would continue
to carry that rate until they would he trans
ferred or would he placed on another job or up
graded .
Q That policy applies to bias': and white
alike?
A All employees.
Q Hr. Ccupland, where $ harr-a' ss?
physically unable to perform, the full futl-Kr
of his job, what provisions arc made for a ran
like that and particularly a long service man?
A When our medical department tells us that
a man is not able to perform his regular job and
that he should he placed on say light work, if
ho has been with tho company any length of service,
I would say fifteen years or longer, v/e would place
him on a job but would not cut his rate. And v/o
would place him on a job that the doctor said he
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could perform that would not he injurious to
his health and here again in setting up our
seniority policy it was agreed by the Board
of Operatives and management that this would
be one thing that /ould not be required to
follow seniority lines.
Q Coining to the lines of progression there
I had asked you what this shows and you indicated
the lines of progression that are colored followed
in the several departments at ACIPCO and would you
look at the Monocast Number 1 and explain to the
Court what is the- movement of people in that depart
ment?
A Well, our man come in on the lower level
jobs and they progress up to the job and wo try
to keep them within an area of work. For example,
if they come in on a certain type of work like in
the core room they progress up from there and if
they come in in the cleaning and processing they
progress up there and if they come in as a rammer
they progress up from there and so on. And we try
to follow that generally. But due to the nature of
our operation we have three pipe plants and we make
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pipe that ranges from four inch through 5k inch
in diameter and we had to break these pipe plants
up to make certain sizes so that we could produce
them economically. For example, Number 1 Monocast
produces four through twelve inch pipe and Number
3 Monocast produces fourteen through 2k inch pipe
and Number 2 Monocast produces 30 through $k inch
pipe. But the jobs are related and our work load
shifts quite often from one plant to the other
and it is necessary to move a shift. The fact
that we move back and forth is the reason you
see these diagonal lines and cross marks. Our
people are trained to where they can move from
one department to the other and perform the job.
For example, we can move from say a Friday after
noon to a Monday morning and put on a shift in
another plant. In that way the company produces
the size pipe that is needed.
And in the processing end
essentially jobs V at are pretty
of it There are
the name#
For cxa-fLe, the testing in all three shops are
essentially the same. The enameline is exactly
the same and the coating of the pipe is essentially
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the same. These men can move in the same classi
fication. They can move from one plant to the
other.
Now, when you get into the lining of molds,
the preparation of molds, in the Number 1 Monocast
Department we still have the old method where we
ram the molds with a pneumatic rammer and that is
not true in Number 2 and Number 3» we line the molds'
there by spinning them and in the Number 2 we used
to ram them the same as Number 1 but that has been
discontinued. Bit the men can nova back and forth#
Mow, chen ire .move the men rf do not out “heir
rate. They carry the highest rate that they bare
obtained on any Jot that they have war' red and -ve
move back and forth and if it is a temporary move
and we know that we probably will be moving back
within two or three months, these men continue to
carry their rate of the highest job they have per
formed and they may be performing a job that pay3
less money in another department or in another unit.
Now, we do this in order to have flexibility
and the man does not suffer because he covers the
highest rate he has.
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Then we also show these cross linos and
diagonal linos whereby the men can bid from one
plant to the other. It is all in the same depart
ment and having experience — many men have exper
ience in all three plants and can perform jobs in
all three plants and could bid and perform the work
and have the necessary training to do it.
Q You have heard this corning by Mr. Rigassio
about rammer hoist Number 1* Rammer A and B and
Rammer Number 2 and would you explain those jobs?
A Yes, I think he was a little bit confused
about Number 2. Number 2 Monocast, we still have
the ramming static a intact. We make special pipe
for customers that have pipe installed that have
been made by the old method. _ But we changed the
method of making pipe in Number 2 several years
ago and we do not use the ramming station except
just occasionally, Usually a crew will come in
early in the morning and ram up a few molds and
that may be done two or three times a week and
it may be done every day. That ig if we have
enough pipe. But after they ram up the molds
then usually they go to other work. They work
a
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maybe an hour or two on the ramming station and
then they move to other jobs like venting flasks
or performing some other job.
q And venting flasks would be in what pay
group?
A That would probably be in Pay Group 2 or
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q Mr. Coupland, what is the policy and what
has been the practice in employees moving from
one department to another department?
A Well* we do not allow he craft department
to employ people off the street because these are
the better jobs in our pi nt. Vie do not have
craft departments — I mean crafts in our production
department except for specialists of some kind and
when there is a need in the Machine S.oop or the
Maintenance Department or the Electrical Depart
ment or the Construction Department, they make
their applications for a man, either an apprentice
or a traineo, whatever the case may hr, or whatever
the job they may be, heavy equipment opera ter and
then we select from the product!,on departments man
who are qualified to go Into any one of these dopevi-
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merits to fulfill their needs and would have the
qualifications to become apprentice or a trainee
to learn the trin. That gives the people in our
production department an opportunity to go to
craft.
Q Is there any adjustment or has there been
a practice to make any adjustment in the wage
rate when the man goes from the production depart
ment to a craft department?
A Yes, when v/e transfer a man from a production
department say to the Machine Shop and he has had
no experience in the Machine Shop, of course, he
is at a disadvantage in going in there but yet he
has experience in our plant. He does not have any
experience in the Machine Shop. Some cases v/e do
have people who have had experience and if ,ie has
had experience wc give him credit for it on the
rate progression schedule but if he has had no
experience v/e will give him a year's credit regard
less of what ho has done in the plant toward the
machinist’s trade and then he would progress up
from there.
Wo at one time, we gave more credit and
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we found wo had mon that didn't know anything
about tho job being trained by a man who had
maybe half the service that that man had. We
ran into some problems and we changed our practice
to give a year's credit where there was no exper
ience.
But anytime we move a man from any depart
ment that has previous experience, regardless of
where ho got the experience, he is given credit for
that experience.
Q In moving from one department, say the
Machine Shop, an employee could get a rate cut?
A Yes.
Q Has that been experienced by white employees?
A Yes»
q Would you turn to the Machine Shop and let
me ask you to explain the lines of progression
there.
You have heard Mr. Rigassio comment about
some of the production machinist's jobs and would
you explain your experience and practice of the
company whereas training is obtained to move up
in the Machine Shop?
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A Yes, in the lower black there you sec
a square where it says probationary and it has
listed labor, sorvicemen, machine hook-up,
hack-saw operator, serviceman blacksmith, fork
lift operator and also the apprentice coming
out of that. These men como in at these job3
first and they perform service type work or the
lower paying jobs. From this group they bid up
to the drill press operator which is the first
real training you get toward the machinist trade.
The drill press operator is shown in Pay Group 7.
And then they go from the drill press operator,
they go into the production machinist job which
you can see on the line going straight up and
they can go to the radial drill which is Pay
Grade 9 and that is considered production machinist.
They could go even to a crane operators job and
that is in Pay Grade 9* And then they move from
production machinist which is the turrett lathe,
the racial drill, the vertical boring mill and
that sort of thing where they do not have to work
close tolerances and they move up then to machinist
B where they have to do more skilled work. And then
Federal Court Reporting Company
4C9 Federal Building
"-•m ngharn. Alabama f*e—
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from 'aeMsist Y they '■ r< 3 to <io work irt close
-iO._ers.sovS "boro, sr "o-oos-s* oocl coc r~c slso
is ossr special prof '.sets olas* v'sre *o la . * So
■ os'r very close tel erases s. H e p •-•.repss-ss up
ires 'Machinist ? to Machinist A which is a highly
skllled jot.
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3 Turn over to the -- lot no ask you this.
The machinists you have employed there, that is
a craft I take it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Turn over to the inspection department.
Would you explain the source of supply for
this department?
A Yes, our inspectors come from the produc
tion jobs in the plant or from jobs in the plant
where we may either — from the skill departments
and we have a man wanting to go into inspection.
Our Inspection Department comes under the Research
Department. Although they show a p obationer dov/n
here, I don't know of any probationer that has
come into the department recent years and started
at the bottom and went up. They have taken men
from other departments that have had training
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama 569
either in the pipe plant or the foundry or the
special products plant and brought them in to
the Inspection Department for further training
in inspection.
Q Mr. Coupland, since the first of this year
the company has had a bid procedure?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you explain to the Court what that
entails?
A Yes, in January of this year we put in a
seniority policy ana bid procedure whereby jobs
that come open would be bid depart.- -ntally first
and plantwide second. ~cr example, in Fay Grade
- ar.i above, if a jab is open they would bid it
within the department. If they could not fill
that job ithin that department then it mecid
bid plantwide. And we would select h r th* m V
vide bids. If wo could not fill it "'.0 g * tiboc*
we would fill it with a r.e - hire.
Q Any restriction or 11-; ;nt ic - - t v >Vcl:
employees bidding?
A No. Qualification am; V - t h o \p*
are the two th ln .- n vo c o n s i d e r , V h y o lo .a‘s o-:v>rt
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama 170
— of course, physical ability to do the job
as stated in our seniority policy.
Q Mr. Coupland, there has been some testi
mony about the company not paying a nan when he
worked a higher rated job on a temporary basis.
'dhat has been the company practice in that respect?
A Many years ago we paid a man each day for
■chat he did. I don’t remember hem many years but
about the tine I went to ACIPCC* some 35 years
ago and in moving a man iron one j'b to another
to pay him that grade, \.*e had problems of the
people who would have to work l e e r paying jobs
and we would pay them loss money and then put
them on that job for that day. And at that tine
through the Board of Operatives, if I remember,
and in discussing it with management and due to
the fact that wo have a lot of people who have
health problems that are placed on lower raying
jobs and retain their higher rate of pay arc
thin is important at the American -Cast Iron Tip?
Company because the pension is figured on the
average earnings of the last ten years of their
employment. It was requested that wo do away
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama 5 7 1
with that and let a man, when we moved him down,
let him retain his rate of pay, regular rate of
Pay and if we put him on a job because of health
reasons let him retain his rate of pay and it
would not effect his pension and then if a man
was asked to perform a job that was above on a
temporary basis why they would be glad to do that
and they would be learning the job and they would
be learning something they could move to later on
xf the job was not open at the present time and
?ie adopted that policy and it was adopted before
my time on the -earn'd of Paragonsnt and that has
been the practice for a good many years.
Q then a nan is assigned permanently to a
higher rated job what has been the practice about
moving to that rate?
A When he has been assigned to a permanent
job he immediately goes on to the rate progression
schedule and he progresses up until he reaches
the job rate.
Q Suppose .you have a man on a job in ray
Group 5 and he bid on a job or was assigned to
a job in I y Group 6?
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ezurM . C aar: a . Company,
perxona tne job satisfactory he would get the
Q Suppose the job he was going on say was
Pay Group 8, 5 through 0, what —
A He would get the rate in the next pay grade
after the trial period of thirty days and then he
would, move up on regular intervals if his work
was satisfactory until he reached the job rate.
Q Has that been true of both white and black
employees?
A Yes, sir, all employees.
Q Ilr. Coupland, there has been some reference
to a bonus plan at the American Cast Iron Pipe
Company and what is the bonus plan?
A The bonus plan is commonly referred to as
the extra compensation plan that was put into
effect in 19^7* I will give you the simple formula.
It is a little complicated because of the income
tax phase of it but generally this is what it
rate.
amounts to.
Federal Court Reporting Company 409 Federal Building Birmingham, Alabama 573
1 It is paid quarterly each year — paid
2 qua_ vGrly during the year and the quarters
3 start with the first of December — the first
4 of the year and ends with the last of November
5 so that e pay the last quarter's bonus just
6 refers Christmas, in December. 3a ch north when
7 rhe — re have the operating results in we have
S a meeting, management has a nesting with the Beard
9 Operatives who of course are Trustees of t'~e
10 company and we review the operating- results and
11 we show the figures of what ire have fane '— *
12 the month and look at the prefit that has been
13 made if we made a profit. The way the bonus is
14 figured, is the first thing we do, is take six
15 for cent of the net worth of the company and wo
16 set that aside in a capital account for the replace-
17 ment of equipment, maintaining our facilities and
18 so on. And then if we have more than that then
19 we take six per cent of the pay roll during that
20 particular month and we set that over into another
21 fund which is the bonus fund. And then if there
22 is any on and above those two amounts it is split
23 fifty/fifty. Taking into consideration income tax
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
it is split fifty/fifty between the two funds.
And that is done each month for a period of three
months in the quarter and then the total amount
of money that is in the fund at the end of a given
quarter is figured on a percentage basis for all
employees of v/hat they have earned during that
month including overtime. And the percentage
amount is the amount and the money is paid to
the employees based on the percentage figure
which would be three months earnings.
Q The pensioners participate in the bonus?
A They do, yes, sir.
Q And how many pensioners do you have, approxi
mately?
A I think we have in the nei hborhood of
380 the last count.
Q Are they furnished medical services?
A Yes, sir.
Q Same as the active employee?
A Yes, they get a little more in medical
service than the active employee. They get medi
cal service plus free drugs. The regular employ
do not get free drugs but the pensioners do.
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Federal Court Reporting Company
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Q You have both black and v/hite pensioners
and they are treated alike?
A Yes, sir.
Q Mr, Coupland, there was some reference
from one of the earlier witness's statement that
was attributed to Mr. Daniel about 75 per cent
of the negroes going to be eliminated at ACIPCO.
Were you at the meeting referred to?
A Yes, sir.
Q Will you state to the Court what occurred
at that time and what was said?
A Yes, we were discussing the fact that wo
had put in the same employment practice for black
and white.
Q Who v/as at that meeting?
A The Auxiliary Board and tho management.
Q Was Dave Jordan there?
A As I recall he was.
Q And was Peter Wrenn there?
A Yes.
q All right, what v/as the substance of that?
A Wo were discussing what had been done in
Dr. Brimm's request that we do the same for every-
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
body on employment practices.
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Mr. Daniels made
tne statement that if v/e keep moving in that
direction it would robably eliminate 75 per cent
of the colored people at ACIPCO. He was referring
to the fact that we were not employing very many
blacks at that time under that particular employ
ment qualification.
Q All right, one further question. At the
time the rate schedule was changed from 23 pay
groups, and I am looking at Defendant’s Exhibit
15* to 1 5 pay groups, were certain jobs down
rated?
A Yes, v/hat v/e did with the 23 pay groups
it was necessary to combine some of the pay groups
xn order to get the 15* And we had people on these
rares. All we did, v/e did not cut anybody's rate.
All the people that were holding a rate that was
downgraded into a lov/or pay rate retained their
rate and only the new people that came up to
that classification in that pay group got — had
to come to the -new rate.
Q Are those rates washing themselves out
with the passage of time?
y 'i & a
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 1 cderal Building
Birmingham, Alabama 577
A Yes, as time goes on through upgrading
people to higher paying jobs, it immediately
washes that rate out for that particular indi
vidual but we have a good many people who are
over-rated as a result of that.
print-out that shows the over rate, under rate
and on rate as of October 1.
Mr. Coupland, I will ask you whether or
not Defendants Exhibit 6 has been rerun on the
computer to break down the over, under and on
rate by department?
A Yes, sir.
Q Will you look at Defendant's Exhibit 28
which is a tabulation together with the computer
print-out and I will ask you can you identify that?
A Yes.
Q What is that?
A That is a listing of our employees by depart
ment showing those that are under rate, on rate
and over rate.
Q You aware that there are certain corrections
that have been made in this print-out as compared
Q I believe we have introduced the computer
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama 57 0
with the earlier print-out which was not be
department?
A Yes, sir.
MR. FORMAN: V/e would like to introduce
that in evidence.
Mr. Coupland, are negro employees being
considered for the apprenticeship program?
A Yes.
Q Will you state to the Court what that
program is?
A Yes, we have been, searching through cur
employees in all departments trying so find candi
dates for apprenticeship are -sre in a recant survey
made, I think referred to by Mr. ire Ire, that we
found fourteen young black men rro ve dele could
qualify. Their mechanical aptitude was low and
this was done sometime back before we did away
with all the testing and due to the fact they did
not have the required mechanical aptitude we thought
by giving then six months exposure in the department
that thoy might acquire the aptitude necessary for
that particular skill and also to give them an
t c j - e r a l C ou r t R e p o r t in g C om p a n y
4> r9 F ederal B uild ing
Birm ingham , Alabama 579
1 opportunity to see if they wanted to do this type
2 of work. We have placed several of these men in
3 various departments, two X know of in the Electri-
4 cal Department at the present tine and I believe
5 we have two in the mechanical repair and maintenance
6 and have some in the Machine Shop.
7 V/e have been following up to see how they
8 are Going and in the Maintenance Department v/e have
9 a request that v i e received from the faintenance
10 Viporifi -endsnt to place one of them on p ’- - ~ o" —
11 ship. I think the other an - --arts to be a rain-
12 tenar. c mechanic and he thinks he oar. probatlj
13 cc the fob and he believes that in tine he can
14 r cccnr.c-r.d hin.
15 Ivo non in the Electrical Department I
16 understand are leaking progress although they have
17 not been in there six months and the part cf our
18 apprenticeship requirement is for them to work
19 in the department for a period of six months before
20 they are recommended for the apprenticeship to the
21 apprentice committee.
22 Q Is that a uniform requirement for white
23 and black employees?
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
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A Yes, the same requirement, y/o do have
some in the Machine Shop and at this point I
can't give you the details on that but y/e did
have one in the Machine Shop that wo offered
an apprenticeship in the Electrical Department
and he said he did not want to do that type of
work and he wanted to remain in the Machine Shop.
Rut we are continually searching for young
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men for apprenticeship, l ,th black and white.
% In connection ith that will ye . exp lair.
tc the Court the training program at aIIICC,
it vas initiated and in- fee- it -operate?
A. M l * it rat a arted hark in
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l*nring -'nr Id rar 11 re hr-re-hit in ran t'.aa hat
family obligatiorrr and they ale rat knar anyahinr
about the foundry incretry or foundry work, "hen
they came to work with us we realized that for
them to provide for their families they were going
to need to move up as fast as we could move them
up so that they could earn more money. And at that
time we set up a training program so that they could
move up the scale as fast as they could learn the
job. And the apprentice committee looked at this
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
program and they did not want to do anything to
discourage the apprentice or to do anything that
would hurt tho apprentice program. So they arrived
at the conclusion that it took the apprentice about
nine years to earn the same amount of money as the
man coming up on this trainee program that we had
set up, in progressing up. So what they did is they
said that in our trainee program that a man could
start in at the bottom and get a raise at regular
intervals, moving up as fast as he could 1 .arn the
joo until he got within six tenths or one pay grade
of tho craft rate and ho would be held there until
nine years service and then he would be recommended
tc the apprentice cem-.ittee for cor side ratio n for
the craft rate. And this was done
dho t. 5 nor ear' the ears s.roa.-rt
nine year period* 3bi~ van erne b-
oo:'u is too o ; ring 'Acrid or nr.
_r-z.
After 'dorl d bar II ve -y’V. jgs ram
and continued it or. up until I believe about a year
ago or maybe a little longer than that and then we
changed it to seven years. You can bring the nan
before the apprentice committee at the end of six
581
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Ft.Lr,i> Court Reporting Company
409 F ederal B uddin g
Birm ingham , Alabama
302, .
years in that particular trade and if ho has
performed satisfactorily the committee would
approve him for the craft and then he would he
S^uen an increase at that time and. six months
later he would he eligible for another increase
which would carry him to the craft rate.
Q And is this program available to black
employees as well as white employees?
A Yes.
Q let me as3c you what is the company policy
abouo lay-off? When did you have your last lay
off?
A In 1961. We ried desperately not to have
a lay-off of our employees because we feel it is
important for a man to stay or, the ;oo and if
have an operation shat for some reason or other
is cut back, pectie will he eoved into other
depart,marts and -c try to retain the- on a 'oh.
if bus' cess conditions get suet that t-ere is a
severe cut hack and .--e carnet provide fees for
our people then of course, we have to have a ley-
off and in 1961 wo had a lay-off of about 230 people.
The way we handle it is this: We have a rate
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
committee that handles rates and things of that
sort which is composed, of myself, the assistant
Works Manager, the Personnel Director, the Employ
ment I.hnager and the department head involved and
four men from the plant, two black men and two
white nen. And we have at least tv/o from the Board
of Operatives and the tv/o from the Board of Opera
tives is the Chairman of the Board of Operatives and
the Chairman of the Working Conditions Committee of
the Board of Operatives. They are on there by
virtue of their office regardless of their race.
And. the department having the cut-back will simply
bring to the committee their complete roster of
people and say to the committee that I am going
to have to reduce the forces in h ,re or the men
by 25 per cent or 5° per cent or whatever the case
may be and then this committee looks over the list
and they decide who will stay in the department and
then it is the job of the committee to place these
men in other departments throughout the plant. And
it is done on a plant-wide seniority basis.
% On what basis is the decision, made -.7 the
somnittee as to -‘•hat people will star or. the .fob'5’
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Federal Court Reporting Company 409 Federal Building Birmingham, Alabama 53/1
1 A On what basis? It is on seniority and
2 the one who does the job.
3 Q Mr. Coupland, do you anticipate a cut-back
4 in the Monocast Department?
5 A Wc will have to reduce the number of people
6 in the Number 1 Mo recast when we modernize that
7 plant because it will require less people to do
8 the job.
9 Q Do you have both the young white and the
10 young black employees in that department?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Will an effort be made to place them
13 elsewhere in the plant?
14 A Yes.
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m . FOIM'ANs I believe that’s all.
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IIS t: Mr. Adams) tauplar', vdll ysn
If tell ;s, please, ear, if yet rrev, A a i ere- peed
20 tee ecrcsrgr te leave a policy ef testing v- lees
21 in the early hegir_elng of the tossing program and
22 net testing blacks?
23 A For the selection of men to go into the
federal Court Reporting Company 409 Federal Building Birmingham, Alabama \rCOXT
1 crafts or skills.
2 3 And then later on you expanded the tests
3 to all whites regardless of whether they went
4 into tie crafts or skills?
i Hem, sir.
€ 3 Ini why ware tie flanks: left a m set h u m
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k V'-g had esgiLagrsS tee vfaite no fill gjrxir.
jam Is our plant and tea whines as teat time
■were, of course, os most of tee skilled Jobs and
it was for replacement purposes and was set up
at that time and our turn-over was low. Back at
that time it was about three tenths of one per cent
and we didn’t employ hut very few and we were in
a position, of course, to take people on the higher
qualifications to fill those jobs.
A And you found it not necessary at that time
to test blacks for any particular job they were
entering into?
A That's right.
Q And your reason was that — what v/as that
reason?
A The reason we put the higher qualifications
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409 Federal Building
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v/aa to select men for craft jobs.
Q You were not employing any black people
in craft jobs at that time?
A No* we did not have any.
Q When you instituted the testing program
for blacks, wore you hiring blacks, at that time
in the craft jobs?
A If they would qualify, yes.
Q Wasn't it, Mr. Coupland, the policy at
506
the time the testing was first instituted to
not employ blacks In craft jobs?
A I don't know that we had a policy not
to do it. We just required that of all the whites
because up until that time we had all whites in
the crafts. And as I said wo employed very few,
because our labor turnover was not — it v/as very
low. Most of the jobs that we had to fill were
in the production department in the unskilled and
mmi-skilled area•
%. And that was back In I35&?
i f i r ,
* " s ; c , are you far iilsar -risk
•; ft One:s.-os of dnr* 1, :>Cv -e f a i-ffwt f a r
f (derac C/surt '/a CtiHn-paw}
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the testing policy at ACIPCO discriminated against
blacks?
A I don't know that I recall that particular
one. Yes.
Q Actually that was a decision that care
from the Commission in Washington, is that not
correct?
A Yes, I think that i3 correct.
Z I will read you this oast, rTce rf true
test cr the test Instituted in h>" which hare
the present cf eiscrininarin- against negro
employees *rdci prevented them fro*-, advancing
to Jobs in job categories which were historically
restricted to hite employees only, and from hich
negro employees which were historically excluded
because of their race, violating Title VII, Civil
Rights Act of 1964,” and further states, "Mainten
ance of segregated Board of Operative which perform
functions of a labor organization and may not be
vacated under Title VII, Civil Rights Act of 1964."
That was part of that decision, is that
not correct?
A Yes, I recall it was.
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Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
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Q Are you familiar with the decision of
the Commission in later case of Harvoy Henloy
indicating substantially the samo thing in
i960?
A If I might 'look at it. I probably have
seen this. I am not sure but I believe I have.
Q It is the practice of the EEOC to notify
you of any decision?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Coupland, I believe you have testified
here that Dr. Brimm recommended that the testing
be done without regard to race and color and for
that reason you started testing blacks as v/ell as
whites at AdIPCO?
A Yes, what we told him at the time is we
were testing our white employees and that we ?/era
not testing the blacks and he said ?/e would have
to do the sane for both. And cos r-n Lr. -a: the rerr
"■'Irk him and he 0oared to be knowIsogentI* as far
as tertn "-ere cor corned and I .rdermr.ord no was 2
college prof error end no sorbet his advice and
counsel and he raid he thought what were doing
was right and after the mnagerent gave ce.rcidera-
Federal Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
Birmingham, Alabama
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-ion to what wo would do on employment practices
we decided we would uso the tost for all applicants
a'o Vig had for tho whites and ho said — when we
talked back with him about it and told him what
we were going to do he said that is fine, just
as long as you do the same for everybody why there
is no discrimination and he said that is fine and
then we gave this test to the hundred people trying
to establish a rate progression schedule for un
grading and he reviewed that and thought it was
-excellent and rocor icr.dsd it to other contractors,
i 35o» loogfLsrd, I think ha made a study of
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1 M i he al ee ec:::",na an a us assgraaaraBi" mo. era
'the hoard of Operatives and ths hczUhary Irard
at AC2PCO?
A Yes.
Q What did he say?
A He said that we should have one board and
his recommendation was that we might have a sub
committee from the two boards to start trying to
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integrate the two hoards into one board and we
explained to him that we could not do that under
the codicil of the will that Mr. Eagan sot up,
that the Board of Operatives was supposed to meet
with the Board of ftManagement and the Board of
Trustees monthly to review the operating results
of the company and so on.
Q So you chose not to follow that part of
his suggestion?
A We didn't say that if the two boards wanted
to meet together that would be up to the two boards.
But as far as us telling them to meet we could not
do it.
Q Isn't it his suggestion that you have one
board?
A Ho, ho suggested we night have a rvh~
committee which is the only thing I remember, a
sub-cor uittee or a few from each board to get to
gether and talk about the things in the plant and
that sort of thing and maybe finally the two boards
would meet together jointly.
Q So he did not recommend then that there
be one single board?
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A Not to ray .knowledge. Wo explained to
him that wo couldn't do that under the codicil
of the will and we felt like it would have to ho
done through the courts.
Q You didn't consider petitioning the court
on your own to correct that?
A m.
1 And further if you tell ms, r. 1.:upland,
that you received this ieciri:r free, the fZCC
short fhs test, is it y
incision sf the >crr'lari'.r s';rr
hue u'-reu
23 i Sȣ -tent a sre-lfereele earare r:' tnas
14 with its. Brim sun other earn’.--ace rsrrnsir r-ficerE
15 in our plant who were loosing at our testing program
16 and they said it was all right and also Dr. Briram
17 told us that as a government contractor we would
18 be under the jurisdiction of the President's Execu-
19 tive Committee on Equal Employment Opportunity and
20 responsible to them and we had sought advice of
21 counsel from them and if you remember Mr. Wesley
22 Tolos came down with Dr. Briram from Cleveland and
23 made an in-depth compliance review of our plant
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and he didn’t recommend we chance anything about
our testing program.
Q But you know — know, Mr. Coupland, that
Mr. Daniels knew when he made the statement to
the employees that 75 por cent might be eliminated
because of the testing program, that something
was wrong with it so far as getting negroes employed
there?
A We found that they couldn’t pass the screen
toot,
Q But you did not take any steps to correct
that program?
A Our program had been approved by the com
pliance officers that we had been working with and
we continued based on their advice and counsel,
q Along that line, Mr. Coupland, could you
explain the statement in the Exhibit 21 you offered
"j hiah is your nocech of June 23 and 2—, ,;s— or
i s sa id on Ju ly 2nd. th is i s a OTBHSEy "t&e
page, "On .?;!y 2nd, 105* acthing viil rhacy :rs
at ACIltO. he will cent!rue to ora rata erf " f:.£
President’s .'ixecuiivc Coder 113-25 as w: hare in
the jjast. Any ccnplaints race to the 11 lights
t t T ^
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K>>) i‘ml, ,.tl /1/,/Ŵ i
lUrwfafJiUM, AUbtM# •wy
Commission will bo roforrod to the Praoidont'u
Committee on Equal Employment Opportunity at
Washington and then referred to the United States
Army Investigator in Atlanta. Dr. Hugh Brinm
is the United States Army Investigator and has
been working with us on complaints' for the parr
two years. The Civil Rights Corrals':ion rule
investigate complaints from companies mho are
not go-varment contractors so don't expect any
croups from the Civil Rights Commission to come
in after July 2nd. Ws will continue working vitf
hr. Drirn as we have in the past."
last compliance review he made was with Mr. Wesley
Tolos.
Could you give us the basis from whirl yrc
made that statement?
A Yes, Dr, Brims told me that
Q I sec. Did you continue to work with him
after 1965» July 2nd?
A We worked with him until I believe the
Q What date was that?
A I am not sure. I believe it was June 19
1965
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1 Q And that was sometime just before y> i made
2 your speech?
3 A Yes. It was —
4 Q As a matter of fact it was four fi'T?
5 You have some pictures in you : ErMb.it
6 ’umber 2 0.
7 A I believe you said that was just Micro.
8 ft was just after.
9 3 Bid you say Juno 1 9th?
10 A it was July 1 9th.
11 Q Oh, July 19th, I am sorry.
12 A The basis for making the speech was that
13 on a compliance review made by Dr. Brimm which I
14 believe was in Ray, May lb, 1 9 6 5, when he made a
15 compliance review at that time ho reviewed our
16 testing program and every! .ing and said a should
17 communicate it to our employees and he tcld us
18 "hat should say and what we should tell our
19 employee:; and this talk is based or that.
20 '< I Will show you Page 16 which refers se
21 .Mice lb which shows a picture of the errplcyees
22 at a kind of test.
23 Does that show a segregated audience?
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A Well, there is no reason for it to he
segregated because they all meet at 0 iOO o ’clock
in the morning in the interview room and we didn't
tell people where to sit.
Q But there are whites sitting on one side
and blacks on the other side?
k That is the way it Ion is to se.
* S k , !5r. Co upland • I beliarre gun
teat, and on several occasions, you nsstiforo r o t
ons cf the reasons that you elIasi.named oho tost
on Fay Groups 1 through 0 m s because you *
employing the hard core by recommendations Cren
the President and —
A As President of American Cast Iron ripe
Company.
Q Wasn’t that one of the presidential programs
too, to hire the hard core employees?
A It could have been but it was our President
who was working with the local industry here in
Birmingham, trying to employ sore 25®® 'rcrrvrs m ®
wore considered r ard core and he- tal cec to s tana
setting tjtp none kind of a program where we cosit
employ them at ACXPflO
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Q Is that what prompted you to do away
with the 1 through 8?
A One of the things. The other was that
we were not employing enough black people in our
plant.
Q And you thought that would be the way you
could get more black people Into the ' lari by
eliminating that r:::ir-onertr
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ware marry blacks who ware employed arc or a .pit
such as Henley, for instance, whe actually •-ms
doing jobs which they could not pass a test lari
A V/e had men who were in the plant doing jobs
and we assigned the man — the score — if ho didn’t
take the test, we assigned him that particular
achievement level regardless whether he took the
test or didn’t. And if he took the test and made
a lower score than the job he was performing, we
didn't change anything there.
Q Yes, but I say — what I am saying In it -vac
e&rAi,tiar that existed at the tfc-e 7®"* lusting
then?
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A That happened in some instances, yes.
Q And Mr. Henley is one?
A I don’t recall that one specifically but
I do recall that we had some.
q Getting to the Board of Operatives and the
Auxiliary Board, do you recall that in one of your
exhibits or do you know this erf your owe ororleere
that in 1965 the eaployr.er t of e laches arsirir*-
- t.ites in production was roughly e tout tha nra '
A I think that is — let no lack. I thirls:
I haws a note here on it.
feat year are you talking about?
< *65?
A Kb, in 1965 it was not the sane.
Q Was it the sane in 1964?
A Well, really it was started — we made the
change in 1964 and in '64, ’65, '66, '67 and '68
we employed considerably less black people than we
did white people.
Q Bit what year was it that the blac.c and
whites, the number of employees -uas r0u.-rh.l7 the
aa.no?
A started b&efe lo 19^9* ***** **
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thin. Before 196^ we go back to 1961 when we
had a lay-off. Duo to the fact we had a lay-off
we didn’t employ either whito or black for a couple
of years. We just brought people back who were
laid off and then in the year 1963 we employed
17 blacks and JO whites is all we employed in
the year '63. Then in *61}- is where the difference
really began.
3 ISiat was the esploya-errt gtetLrxias ef "ilarr
against white in production in 13*63?
A I have a total figure hare, total ccnh&r
and it wa3 17 black against 36 white.
1 Coupland, I think you said at the Ivw --
ring when the tests were put in that the r.vwvr
blacks was severely curtailed in hiring at f ;\\y
and whites were hired at a greater rate?
A That * s right.
Q Was there ever a year that they wore roughly
about the same?
A
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I would say they were not exactly the same.
I don’t mean exactly but I mean just roughly
the same.
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'AO's.
Q Tate 'AO's and they never were roughly
about the same anytime before then?
A Oh, I am sure there were on further back.
But I would say from the late 'AO’s on back they
would probably be and in some cases we had more
blacks than whites way back.
Q But it never was roughly the same according
to your tatement?
A As I understand ;hat you are saying, are
you talking about the total number of employees
at ACIFC0 or the total number of hires?
Q No, I am talking about the total number of
blacks as against whites in the production depart
ment. In other words what would be the total number
of blacks and the total number of whites in production
in a particular year? Were they not relatively the
same at a particular point in the history of ACIPCO
around about say 196A?
A Somewhere in there I would say thoy woro
pretty close the same.
Q Then after the tests were put in the whites
tended to increase and the blacks tended to decrease?
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A That is correct. But we changed that —
that is one of the reasons that we discontinued
the testing because the blade people — black
applicants could not make enough on the screen
test to be employed and that is one reason we
did. away with the screen test in Pay Grades 1 .
through 8, to bring more black people into our
plant. We realized we needed to do that.
Q Isn’t it true, Mr. Coupland, that at that
particular time in 1965 there were several depart
ments, as there are now, that were — there were
very few, if any black employees in them?
A Some of the smaller departments.
Q But in those departments the money is higher
for instance in the electrical or maintenance and
construction departments?
A Those are the craft jobs, yes.
Q Those are the ones that the blacks have not
had too many persons employed in and those are the
jobs that pay the larger amount of money?
A That is correct. We have had fewer blacks
in those departments than we have in the production
department,
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Q Mr. Coupland» you recall very clearly
I believe the Court’s Or'der abolishing the Auxiliary
Board and ordering an election at ACIPCO to allow
one board which would be the Board of Operatives?
A Yes.
Q And you remember and there is evidence that
there was a geographical set-up made out which
showed the various areas in the plant from which
persons would be entitled to vote for a particular
person on that board?
A Yes.
Q At the time that the Board of Operatives
election was held, blacks represented less than
an equal number of persons in the plant, is that
correct?
A That is correct.
Q Do you have any independant recollection
about whether it was about one third of the
employees at that time?
A I think that would bo close.
Q Now, it-is the Board of Operatives and the
Board of Management that form the vital part of
the organization of ACIPCO, is that not correct?
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A They are the Trustees.
Q And what particular board or boards appoint,
or elect the various committees?
A You tallying about the — what committees?
Q Well, for instance the Rate Committee?
A The Rate Committee, the Board of Management
sets up the Rate Committee and all committees. And
but they set it up based on filling it by virtue
of the position the man holds.
Q And how is the Board of Management elected?
A B;y the Board of Directors.
Q And would you state to the Court how the
Board of Directors is elected?
A The Board of Directors is elected by the
Trustees.
Q And that is all set out in the policy manual
of the American Cast Iron Pipe -ompany?
A Yes, sir, in the by-laws.
Q Is this the rate committee that is appointed
by management that determines whether a job is properly
rated?
A Yes, but management simply sots out the
basis, on which the committee would be formed and
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the Chairman of the Board of Operatives and the
Chairman of the Working Conditions Committee of
tho Board of Operatives and at the present time
we have an all-white Board of Operatives and we
have two blacks who are chosen based on tho number
of votes they received in the recent or the most
recent election and that was provided by the Court
and that is the way they are chosen so that we
would have two blacks and two whites, four men
from — workers in the plant on the committee
along with five other people which is the Personnel
Director, who is Chairman, the Employment manager,
myself and ray assistant and the department head
involved.
Q Suppose at ACIPCO, Mr. Coupland, somebody
wanted to protest about a transfer based on race
or other considerations. Where would ho make his
protest?
A Ho could go to his representative in the
district, his Board of Operatives member and he
can go to the Personnel Department and ho can go
to any member of the Board of Management.
Q And is this the scheme that is recommended
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that tho employee take?
A This is a practice that we have followed
over the yean
Q Suppose he went to a person, his district
representative on the Board of Operatives, what
authority does he have to redress such a grievance?
tives at probably one of their regular meetings or
either in one of their committee mootings, say tho
Working Conditions Committee mooting and ho could
bring the matter up there and discuss It with t.lio
Working Conditions Committee of tho Board of Q| na
tives and if they felt that ho had a llgitimate
complaint then they could bring tho matter to —
if it was about rate, he could bring the matter
to the Chairman of the Rate Committee and state
that they have a matter here that tho Rate Committee
needed to look into. The Chairman would call a
meeting and it would be looked into and placed on
the docket. Wo have Rate Committee meetings and
we don’t have any specific time set in tho month
or week but as those matters come to the attention
of the Rate Committee it is brought to them and they
A He would take it up with the Board of Opera-
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are processed and handled.
Q Suppose that he wanted to complain about
the description of the job, say the new descrip
tion, what would he do to make his complaint
known and some effective redress given to him?
A He can follow the same channel. He can
fe d e ra l Court Reporting Company
409 Federal Building
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talk v/ith the — since the job descriptions
usually come out of the employment office he
could go directly to Hr. Phelps and talk to
him about it and he could request that the Industrial
Engineering Department make another study or check
it out or whatever information that they needed.
And they would honor his request and do so.
Q All right, suppose Mr. Phelps did nothing
about it, would he have any recourse?
A Sure, he could go to his Board of Operatives
member and many of them do and many of them go to
the members of the Rate Committee. Go to black
members of the Rato Committee and we have that
quite frequently where black men go to a member
of the Rate Committee and would say I would like
to have this looked into and he brings it in.
Q So it is the Rate Committee, the Board of
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Operatives, the Hoard or m augment and J, V oCfKMule
of the company thr a man would havv to p® to >;o
correct any problems that He hud about dUtVtvut
things at the plant.
How fast doos that action — how fast do
you get action on a complaint, do you know?
A Well* it depends on the nature of the
complaint. If it is something that is urgent
the Pate Committee could be called together and
the Board of Operatives could consider it first
if they wanted to. It may be considered by the
Working Conditions Committee and may bo considered
by the Board of Operatives, the Rate Committee and
it would depend on how urgent the matter was.
Q How often doos the Board of Operatives
meet?
A They meet monthly. They have committee
meetings in between their regular leetings. They
meet monthly as a board but they have working
conditions committee meetings in the Interim
period.
Q There are no negroes at the present time
on the Board of Operatives?
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A No.
Q Any negroes in management?
A No.
Q And no negroes on the Board of Directors?
A No.
Q Any negroes on the Board of Trustees at
ACIPCO?
A No.
Q And no negro load mon except ono?
A That's right.
Q And no negro foreman?
A No.
Q The linos of progression you t.n U.x1
about, and talked about today, they ano not
according to what I understand from your testimony
hard and fast, is that right? In other words they
are not so that you've just got to go through this
particular procedure to get to this place? In other
words they are just guides that the company is using
to order the operation of the plant? For instance
you indicated in-the machinist job very seldom do
you come in as a probationary, is that correct?
A That' s' right.
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Q You heard-Mr. Rigassio's testimony about
the — using plant seniority to transfer from
one particular job in one department that had
related skills to another department. Is that
feasible?
with him because of the difference in the nature
of our work. Really we have about four plants
in one area. We have a pipe making operation
and within those three plants, yes and wo do but
when you move into the machine operation which is
a jobbing shop and it is highly skilled work, no.
And then the steel foundry which is an entirely
different foundry operation from pipe making and
it is still a jobbing foundry, and then the centri
fugal shop for making centrifugal ly curst tubing
of all the various alloys, stainless stool and that
sort of thing which is highly skilled w trY and theft
the pipe mill Which Is an entirely dJrfernot ,
tion from cither of these and then & fitting© twifAwyf
that makes accessories to go with pipe and it is
strictly a jobbing foundry.
So you have different types skills and
A Well, I don’t think so. I don’t agree
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different work. Now# It; In true them t- m m
relation in aomo of tho John hut to hr nhU> to
movo soniority-wino on ft plant haatn, t dfruM
think it io practical.
THE COURT t Going to ranees now.
Recess now until 9*00 o'clock in the naming.
THE COURT! All right, I believe
Mr. Coupland was on cross examination.
MR. ADAMSi Yes, sir.
when we recessed yesterday evening we were dis
cussing Mr. Rigassio's testimony about lines of
progression and his statement that certain skills
learned in other departments could be used to
transfer into departments that negroes had not been
in in substantial numbers and I think you stated
(Court was in recess at
4*32 F. !!. * October Z6,
1971 until 9:05 A. K.,
October 27, 1971* )
OCTOBER 27# 1971 9:05 A. K,
Q (By Mr. Adams) Mr. Coupland, I believe
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you disagree with his proposition along that line,
is that correct?
A Yes, I disagree that you can have plant
wide seniority, X admit there are certain Jobs
in every department that would bo the same for
the others. For example in the transportation.
end like operating cranes and that sort of thing,
tnose jobs would be essentially the same but when
you gec into the crafts and skills in the various
departments, that is quite different.
Q Bo you disagree with his proposition about
1- iO grinder job being a job which could possibly
have the elements of qualification for inspector?
A No, I don’t disagree with that.
Q It is true that tnere have been many employees
who have gone from one department to another at
ACIPCO over the years, is that not right?
A Yes.
Q And are you saying that these lines of
progression that have been submitted in evidence
are the lineo that you have been using and just
codified recently or just put in written form?
Are these the lines that have always been used
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or generally been used at ACECO?
A Yes.
Q And you put then in vritten fern*
A We cade charts shewing how you progress
up in each various trade or in each of the n r i e c
operations.
Q The other matter which you talked about
on direct examination is in Do fond ant'a t b M M t
21 and 22 in which you compare the rates of cer
tain jobs with the jobs.of other plants. Ttv I 'a
ia your Exhibit Number 21.
A Yes.
Q And in your Exhibl l Number 22 yon compare
the certain jobs with jobr, in 7:5 rwlr."hari .and in
the steel industry and —
A The foundry industry#
a
A
Q
Tb e fo , nd ry i' d ? a t ry ?
*e don't compare with the steel industry#
That is tho — you have steal but that Is
with reference to the steel foundry?
A That's right.
Q And that is your Exhibit Number 22?
A Yos, sir.
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Q What I v/ant to ask you, those comparison;
in Exhibit 21 are not of all jobs but only of
a few of the jobs, is that correct?
jobs are not exactly the same. You can only
compare like jobs, jobs that require the same
duties and where we have jobs in our plant that
are not exactly the same in our competitors plants,
we make a job evaluation and furnish that informa
tion to our Sato Committee along with comparisons
of other rates.
Q Are you saying that these are all fie ;
that are of like character you can. compare ita
with other companies in Birmingham in trie area '
A These are the most of them, y s , sir.
Q You have approximately 225 or more jobs
at ACIFC0, don't you?
A Store than that.
Q Viliat would you say the number is?
A I would say it m s • ' tv* -v , v.,r -V!
of four or five brat rod Vr>'; •• ' ** V w
A As I stated several times that all of the
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here and then the other national survey in the
foundry industry for jobbing type foundries
which relate to our fittings foundry and our stool
foundry and our brass foundry.
Q Yes. Well, what I was going to say is as
far as your foundry operation is concerned how many
jobs do you estimate you have?
A I don't know offhand how many we have.
Q Roughly.
A I would say we probably have one hundred.
I am speaking of our fittings foundry, our gray
iron fittings foundry when I say that.
You are not in * nr steel?
A No.
Q Do you know the number of job dasori-tiers
you furnished us in this particular case?
A No, I do not.
Q Mr. Coupland, I believe there is an exhibit
which is Exhibit Number 26 dealing with the evalua
tion of certain Jobs. Are you familiar with that?
A Yes.
a Let ce ask 7 ™ /'?■'
deposition stating fast th* vr, / h ^
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evaluating jobs was to compare the job with other
jobs and make an evaluation in that regard?
A Yes. I am talking about jobs in our
industry.
Q Did you — do you have a criteria other
than that kind of comparison that you make in
evaluating jobs?
A Well, as I mentioned that we compare with
— with the jobs in our industry. You will have
to remember that In the pipe industry hero, all
of the other pipe plants make pipe by the delabow
process and we use the sand spun process. All of
our jobs are not exactly the same but many of them
are and we compare those that are comparable. Where
we do not have a job exactly comparable then we
make a job evaluation and send that information
to the Rate Committee along with the national survey,
along with the area survey with the job evaluation
to determine what the rate of pay should be on that
particular job.
Q In this exhibit I think if you look through
it there is a job evaluation analysis sheet showing
factor points given to the particular job.
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Could you toll us how those wore arrived
at, that is, the point system involved? What is
the basis of those points? Is it any particular
information?
that is generally accepted practice in Industry
today as pointed out by hr. Rigassio. And I
think if you will look at -shat is checked here
as against what he submitted you 1 ill fin; they
are essentially the sane and this •was den? by
the Industrial Engineering Eepartr.snt id*.; ••• I sy
the accepted practices in the industry.
q All right, now, what I wanted be v. is
this point system, is that the sane poi-t ••; ••••
used in the steel industry or used in the pipe
industry?
A I don't know ar.yi • ft ■ ■
industry.
Q Is there a point 2/iVr. "-V/E
industry?
A For industry#
Q For industry in general?
A Yes, in general.
A Yes, we use the formula for job evaluation
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Q Do you know whether this evaluation
sheet was attached to each of the job descrip
tions furnished us?
A No, it was not attached I don't believe.
In the survey of the entire plant wo made a job
description of every job to get the job duties
and the job evaluation as I understand it in
talking with our Industrial Engineering De-cart-
sent was not rads. formation and data was .-ati
ered but no evaluations were made.
3 Have there been eval rations rad? -nv ■*
A No.
3 So no rates have beer, share ;d *_ - d r v
groups have been changed other than The ; -a?
^Bve in existance before the job description* vrv
made?
A That’s right. The job description vns rndy
— I moan the survey was made to got a conpletn ,lo*>
description of every job in our plant# And got it
up to date, get it current.
Q Do you propose 0 :'r# It 'h . v, -■
the job so far as their ;ay grt-vjpt ^'t vn/ ■
feased on these descriptions?
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A One of the things — to make a job evalua
tion of our plant, and I think I mentioned this
before that v/e pay equal or better than the going
rate in our industry, we know and many of our
people are over-rated and we do not cut the rate
because it affects their pension. In the last
ten years of their employment their pension is
based on their earnings. We know as men get older
that many times they are not able to perform the
job they once performed and we may put them on an
easier job or a job that pays less but we do not
cut the rate so it will not affect their pension
and paying more than the industry, equal or better,
we know that if we make a job evaluation and check
the jobs, that v/e v/ould have to cut many jobs arc
if we set up a policy in our plant that viier. a man
moved from one job to another to cu. ~._n .. ~
him based on moving him to that particular ;ct, i-
would affect many of our people and we know this.
Job evaluation is not now to us. We are thorou,-, . l'<
familiar with it and that is the reason wo do not
look at jot> evaluations fron the standpoint of rato
but v/e are looking at it from the standpoint of
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learning time at the present time. In this study
we made to get up to date job description of each
job we did gather information and data with regard
to learning time on each of the jobs and we are in
the process of working that up now and I believe
Mr. Pdgassio commented on that and said it looked
like it was in line*
Q On that particular point you raised two
points at once which I am interested in pursuing
and that is, would you agree with his comment that
the length of time to reach the rate on the job
should be virtually the same as the time it takes
to learn the job and he commented he thought the
time to reach the rate at ACIPCO was longer than
it should be. What is your reaction to that state
ment?
A I think that would have to be brought out
in the study. Because different jobs require
different learning time.
Q Yes, sir, but what I mean is he agreed
with your learning time on some of the jobs he
saw, that that was in line and -- but the time
it took the man to reach the rate was considerably
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moro than that time in some instances. I am
asking you do you think or are you in a position
t0 Say at this time whether or not the rate pro
gression schedule should be adjusted so that a
man would reach his rate when he learns the job?
A Well, after we have made — completed our
work on learning tine, this would be recommended
to the rate committee by our Industrial In-imrwrinr
-overrent and to -bat jobs or how ranr 'ob? vox* f
be involved, I couldn't say.
3 So you are saying that is in - - - - rr~s3s
of studying at this time?
A Yes, it is under study.
i Cn the other point about the mansiov I
think ycui testified the pension is related to
""-2t a man's oarnirgs are over a period of years,
is that correct?
A Yes, sir, based on his last ten years of
earnings.
Q Last ten years of earnir.ro ?
A Last ten years of earring!
Q And if he gets paid a su- ' 1 - : "
gets a smaller pension?
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A Yes, sir.
3 And if he gets paid a larger wage he
gets a larger pension, is that right?
A That is correct.
3 Are there any other incrsraes.'ts of the
jot that work on that basis 1 la rthsr vreris ar.y
other fringe benefits that are based an rrmt a
ran rakes?
A hell, the extra scarers.ra.irr is hsas’.r nr.
3 His bonus?
A Yes.
; And that would be the sane formula applied
to that particular situation?
A Yes.
q Mr. Coupland, you testified th&t
you have fourteen black persons m m ms* m m
of the craft type departments. 1 m m
existed?
A These men were selected tec'
ago. I don’t know exactly how long. I WJ'-i
six months or maybe a year ago in •OfttfOtilflg
our people to find candidates for eppnmitedrtbl P,
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we immediately started to — as I pointed out
this is during the time we had our testing pro
gram in effect. They did not score high enough
on the aptitude test, to qualify and we felt that
maybe they had not had an opportunity tc be exposed
to the mechanical things and we decided we would
put then in a department to give them six months
exposure to see if they could acquire the mechani
cs.! aptitude and also if they would 1 be mo seeue
or apsrenticesfeip in that par"' ruler m f r .
trcersn?
A Ve have reeomer.fatirns for t v - , hr- u e
recemended back in September arc roe rrt : nr
finalized but it is in the process now of ma_rr
worked cut with the Apprentice Committee i t m o a r
has heer submitted within the week. Both, are orom
the mirtenanco Department, Mechanical Maintenance
Department and as I mentioned yesterday there is
two in the Electric Shop and have been there
approximately five months and - und^rstacu u -~'J
are making satisfactory progress.
Q You heard Mr. Ri:~
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the ago limit in the apprenticeship program, in
his judgment and the judgment of some authorities
that 25 years of age and longer in the cases of
persons in the armed services, was unnecessarily
restrictive and that 35 years would probably be
a cutoff point.
Would you care to state your opinion about
that?
A Yes, we feel that 25 years of age plus
military service and in many cases that is four
years which would mean 29 years of age for the
apprentice candidate, is about right. I am not
saying a man couldn't learn an apprenticeship at
any age but we have a training pro gran ’••here a mar.
can cone up to the traxnee program arc go.
ing more money and dropgang cacr covr .0 .
ticeship and coning up. This is tne :
set that way because we have beta tr=
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arm; the apprentice prograa.
,;rj felt that a ran around 25 to I*
0/ woubd have been in our plant for gplf*
tiro and be would Have to take a eut to start or
t-o program and we could only ellow
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him credit for the amount of experience he had
had. And in this way he would have to take a
cut in wages to start on the apprentice program
whereby in the trainee program that may not be
true.
Q Your company has not considered v/hat is
called red circling a man's wage if he were able
to qualify in the apprentice program to allow him
to go into the apprentice program without losing
his particular wage that he was making before he
went into it?
A V;a have considered that but we couldn't
very well do it because in many cases the man may
have been in the plant six or seven years and his
rata is too high to give him credit for everything
he had. What we do is we give bin credit, a rinir.ur
of 1,000 hours and Mr. Rigassio said a maxim-— bet
that is wrong, we give his a rinlrm cr : errs
and then wo have given a man — well, ; - -1 rarer-: _j
vo gave a man in our Electrical Departeert
harm which is half of an apprenticeship for pant
exp o/Ion ce when ho wont on i t no th at moves h is
r f / v;> to tho 1̂ • 000 hour place on the
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schedule. Many times we give 2,000 hours.
Q It is true that the person in the ACIPCO
apprenticeship program can relax the rules ana
allow a man to advance to a particular vrare
r r td
—nr — ~~ bra ma= am
v~r parr sra;araanaa •
m l s a s £ a x v h * a m l a
: rent am*
* — we nr.
Lwx:? l:x.:m
L'C 15 £T3?rrlE53ES5 as
am m a scarfa —t I--1'-'5
-Is all ta^ enttit oar,
- ---5; as- you gave ^,000 hours, vas ue
'tlsc-r xzr it taa'?
ras a white man.
- - -> --*jj testified also, yesterday,
hr. Is r :, about the length of time it takes
- rogran and you heard Mr. Rigassio
-at regard, that it could he reduced
sal you testified it had been reduced
* much higher length of time.
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Has the company considered any reduction
— I "believe it is 8,000 hours at the present
time?
A Yes, 8,000 hours now.
Q And —
A At one time it was 10,000 hours.
Q Yes, and does that — is that the figure
that comes out roughly to about seven years?
A No, it is the trainee program that requires
seven years. The apprentice program, at the end
of 8,000 hours the apprentice is within one pay
grade of the craft rate.
Q All right, now, what I wanted to know, have
you considered or do you think it would be possible
to reduce the number of hours?
A I don't think so. Mr. Rigassio said back
during the national emergency they found they could
train men faster. I agree with that. We were in
a training program at that time also. You can train
a man to do a specific job, say in the Machine Shop
to operate one machine and he can become proficient
in that but in our work as a jobbing machine shop
making all types of things wo have to have a well
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rounded machinist. He has to do many things. We
have to ho able to walk out and hand a man a work
order with a blueprint and tell him to make this
and' it may change every day. And to be a well
rounded machinist in all aspects of the trade we
find that most of our men that it takes five years
or longer to actually become a finished machinist.
Q Mr. .Coupland, is it your opinion that any
of these craft type jobs we referred to where blacks
have not been in, it requires a high school educa
tion to perform?
A Well, we have required a high school educa
tion but I wouldn't say it actually required it.
A man can acquire education parttime and we are
not saying — we said at one time he should have
a high school diploma and that was one way we could
put some kind of qualification on it but we feel —
Isn't it your opinion really that the practi
cal affect that he just really has to be a high school
graduate to be a.ble to qualify?
A Well* be has got to do his lessons. He has
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a high school graduate — we have a lot of people
who go through high school "but didn't get an
education. What we are looking at is the man
able to do the work, the classroom work along
with the work on the job.
Q The example that Mr. Rigassio pointed out
in the machine department, Pay Group 9 jobs, he
stated, and you heard him testify, do you believe
that a man needs a high school education for those
jobs?
A No, I wouldn’t say that he does.
Q And that is Pay Group 9?
A Yes, sir, Pay Group 9* But I would like to
say this. In his analysis of the induction mach
inist, he spent approximately thirty minutes in the
Machine Shop and we have three machine shops, you
know, and we employ approximately people arm'
I don’t believe he had time- enoord
that our men do in the rob ohareif of oroduo—
r*V. * ^ " n. •>'0 * ̂ ~ s ~~~ ■»» >• • * • ̂ » droll nolue or. a
ter-piat but the prod motion next in lot — boat ir
- ",-e in t-,e ;.'ê oyoe-atlor e-.t > tr^ - e n x ei-or
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in our foundry that pass through our machine shop.
They have to be machined, faced, drilled, tapped
and grooved and. many operations performed on them
which does require a man to read a blueprint, use
measuring instruments and that sort of thing to
he a production machinist.
Q You are familiar with the fact that he
had a job description for the Machine Shop?
A Yes, I understand that.
Q Mr. Coupland, on your seniority system
that you discussed yesterday, I believe you
testified that you preferred departmental seniority
to plant seniority. Could you explain to the Court,
please, sir, why — do you think that such seniority
policy would not restrict blacks from advancing who
have never been in say the — in large numbers in
the Machine Department, the Machine Shop, the Electri
cal Shop, Maintenance and so forth? Would such a
policy in and of itself be highly restrictive to
their advancing in those departments?
A No, I d 't think CO,
■Machine Shop
cave
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from within tho plant and when they make a request
from the employment office for a man, he comes from
our production department and he could well be
black or white,
Q But according to your statement you don't
want a man in those departments who hasn't had
some previous experience in that kind of work
and he would have to of necessity get it by
being in a department?
A No, we are not requiring that he have
experience. We are requiring that he have the
ability to loarn tho job.
Q Can you determine that from his work in
other departments?
A Yes, wo — that is what we are doing now.
We relied some on testing before but since we have
no testing program we look at the man's application,
his past experience, v/here he worked before, his
education and other things to see if his qualifi
cations are such that he could learn this particu
lar type of work'or craft.
Q Yes, then you are saying that there are
Certain skills learned in seme other department
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that can be transferred into another department
different from which the man is in?
A Yes, there are jobs that would be related
in some way that would be — we could give him
credit for.
Q Suppose there is a man in a department
who wants to be a machinist and he is working on
a job which is no way for him to manifest any
particular skills as far as a machinist is con
cerned, how will he be able to get into a job
that he has never been into before?
A Well, he can make it known that ho would
like to go into the Machine Shop and we would put
him on the list. This is what we ’nave done over
the years. Many of the young white men came and
said I want to learn a trade and I would like for
you to put my name on the list for consideration
when there is an opening in the Machine Shop or in
the Mechanical Repair Department or any of the craft
departments and we put their names dov/n along with
other men that we select from our people as n on who
we feel have the qualifications to learn a craft.
Q Is that system still possible since you
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have "the bid situation?
A Well* we have to bid it now but I am talking
about the apprenticeship.
Q Oh, you are talking about the apprentice
ship program?
A We don’t bid apprenticeship now in the
Machine Shop but you asked about bidding depart-
nentally, we feel when you get above Pay Grade 3
that you should bid the job within the department
inanity to be upgraded if there is an opportunity
to be upgraded and if they can't fill it from
within the department, bid it plantwide.
5 That is what I want to get at, is that
restrictive when you have very lev/ blac;C3 in a
certain department?
A It would be if v/e didn't have many blacks
I r ig h t nay th at in our deportments, email
where they only have fifteen or twenty or thirty
and give those people in the department an oppcr-
usually when a job comen open it in bid plant-
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wide because they don't have people to fill it.
Q That is not true in the Machine Shop?
A Not in the Machine Shop.
Q • If a man wants to go on the on-the-job
training program can he come forward and say he
wants to go on such a training program and get
put down for consideration? Or how does that
work?
A I would say most of our people are in
training after they get above Pay Grade 3, train
ing on some job, job classification or some parti
cular type of our operation. And if they would
like to move to another type work from what they
are now doing they need to make it known and then
when the jobs come open they need to bid on them.
Q Essentially the people train on jobs in
their department at the present time, is that not
correct?
A That's right.
q How would a black person in the Monocast
Department train on something on the job cay under
your system In the Machino Shop?
Hr>, would have to roGuest that he be considered
\/J &•) '
A
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