Lankford v. Schmidt Transcript of Proceedings Vol. 7

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January 27, 1965

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- 19a39a5a-ba9a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873

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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Lankford v. Schmidt Transcript of Proceedings Vol. 7, 1965. 19a39a5a-ba9a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/ad5134ee-9c77-49f1-b134-f7d19169a476/lankford-v-schmidt-transcript-of-proceedings-vol-7. Accessed June 17, 2025.

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SAMUEL JAMES LANKFORD, et al. :

>
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE DISTRICT OF MARYLAND

vs. : Civil No. 16030

BERNARD j, SCHMIDT > ^ commissioner
of Police of Baltimore City. :

January 27, 1965

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Volume i

(Page 743 to page 937 )

Francis T. Owens
Official Reporter
514 Post Office Bldg.
Baltimore 2, Maryland

SAMUEL JAMES LANKFORD, et al. :

>
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE DISTRICT OF MARYLAND

vs. : Civil No. 16030

BERNARD J, SCHMIDT, asCo m m i s s i o n e r
of Police of Baltimore City. :

January 27, 1965

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Volume y

(Page 743 to page 937 )

Francis T. Owens
Official Reporter
514 Post Office Bldg.
Baltimore 2, Maryland

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Witness
Serg. William H. Rehmann
Dect. Lester C. Shearer
Dect. Richard F. Bosak
Serg. Robert E. Brathuhn
Lieut. Bernard William Coll
Serg. Louis A. Brandt
Lieut. James J. Cadden
Serg. John T. Dunn
Lieut. James J. Cadden

E X H
Joint No.
3, 4
Defendant's No.
4

Direct Cross Redirect Recross
745 763,

781
793 795
798 805
813 830 837 838
838 846 853, 854,

854 855
857 862
867
867 871
880 913

I B I T S
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744
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE DISTRICT OF MARYLAND

SAMUEL JAMES LANKFORD, et al.

V8 . Civil No. 16080

BERNARD J. SCHMIDT, as COMMISSIONER
of POLICE of BALTIMORE CITY

Baltimore, Maryland
Wednesday, January 27, 19

The above-entitled matter was resumed for
hearing before His Honor, Roszel C. Thomsen, Chief Judge, at
ten o'clock a.m.

A P P E A R A N C E S

(As heretofore noted.)

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PROCEEDINGS

Honor?
MR. NABRIT: May we approach Che bench, Your

THE COURT: Yes, come on.
(Bench conference.)

Thereupon
SERGEANT WILLIAM H. REHMANN

was called as a witness for and on behalf of Che defendant
and, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:

—— —. THE CLERK: State your full name.
THE WITNESS: Sergeant William H. Rehmann,

Northwestern District, Baltimore City Police Department*
DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. SAUSE:
\ Q Sergeant, how long have you been a police

officer?
A Eighteen, going on nineteen years.
Q And how long have you been a sergeant, sir?
A Going on six years.
Q Now, directing your attention to January 6th of

this year, did you have occasion to make an Investigation in
the 2000 block of North Monroe Street?

-150
I did

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Q Now, would you tell His Honor what was the basil>
for that investigation and what was the nature of the
investigation?

A Well, at approximately 11:20 a.m. I received a
call to Gwynn Galls Parkway and Dukeland Street to meet Radio
Car 601.

THE COURT: You say 11:20?
THE WITNESS: About 11:20 a.m. approximately.
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Upon my arrival there I met

Officer John Hess and Officer Larrimore, who was occupying
that radio car, and they gave me a report that a cruising
patrol from the Western District had stopped them and gave
them information that a cab driver had stopped them and
reported he had picked up a fare, two ladies at Fayette and
St. Paul Street and was directed to take them to the 2000
block of North Monroe Street, and while they were being
transported to this location they were quibbling among one
another about money, and the one lady said to the other--

MR. NABRIT: Objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, this is the basis upon which

this man made some decision. It's part of the res gestae.
It doesn't tend to prove the truth of the fact of what the
other man said; but it tends to prove the basis on which
certain action was taken.

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THE WITNESS: All right, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: One lady said to the other, "I

wish I hadn't taken you along." She said, "If I hadn't gone
along you wouldn't have gotten anything," and they proceeded,
and one said to the other—

THE COURT: This is what, the report of the cab
driver as reported to you by—

THE WITNESS: By the officers.
THE COURT: Of the cruising patrol?
THE WITNESS: Of the cruising patrol.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: "That son of yours when he gets

liquored up, you know he went out and shot a police officer."
He then dropped one lady off in the 1900 block

of Eutaw Place and then proceeded to take the other lady to
the 2000 block of North Monroe Street, and he watched until
she went into 2003 North Monroe Street.

I then asked the officers if they had the cab
driver*8 name, and so on and so forth, and they told me yes,
that the information was good.

3 / ̂ I then went to a call box because there was
some people around, and so on and so forth, and I went away
from that location and went to a call box and called my

15#
station.

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I relayed It to the station what information 1

had received. After relating this information to the station
1 then contacted Radio and then contacted the Special Unit
that was for this purpose of going to places looking for
someone especially the Veney brothers.

They answered the radio, and they arranged to
meet me at Gwynn Falls and Dukeland.

In approximately five or ten minutes the special
detail arrived at Gwynn Falls and Dukeland, and 1 told the
officer in charge, Lieutenant Cadden what information I had
received, and this information as a unit with several cars
from our district and a cruising patrol and the Special Unit
we proceeded to 2003 North Monroe Street.

Several officers—
THE COURT: What time of day was this?
THE WITNESS: Getting near twelve o'clock noon.

Your Honor, but I don't know the exact time but it was around
about that time.

THE COURT: May I see that exhibit?
All right.
THE WITNESS: All right.
THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: We arrived at that location, and

several officers from the special detail went on the steps of
2003 North Monroe Street. I was right beside the steps, and

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Lieutenant Cadden was right behind the two officers that
knocked on the door.

After three or four times that he had rapped I
also observed that there was lights in the basement.

After three or four times that he knocked on th<
door a lady opened the door. Lieutenant Cadden advised this
lady as to what our mission was, that we had received certain
information, and that we would like-**and told her this
information and that we would like to go into the house.

She say8, "Come on in."
At that we entered the house. I was doing oth

things. 1 know Lieutenant Cadden, 1 overheard him talking
to Mrs.--later she was identified as Mrs. Maggie Sheppard.
He was talking to this lady, and I heard him ask her if she
had just come home, and she made a statement yes, and he
asked her where she had come from.

She said St. Paul and Fayette, the Veterans"
Administration, and he asked her how she had came home, and
she said in a taxicab.

He then wanted to know about the statement and
who was with her.

* / She became— I wouldn't say belligerent but she,-rJ
but she said, "I don't know where it's any business of yours,
and after numerous times he tried to get this information
from her, and she would not do it, we decided it would be

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best to take her into the station where we could talk to her.
She was transported into the station.
THE COURT: You mean you arrested her? Who

arrested her? You or Lieutenant Cadden, or was she arrested
then?

THE WITNESS: Well, she was actually arrested
because she was booked, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. So that you took her
to the station?

THE WITNESS: In a radio car, Radio Car 601,
along with her son. She requested that he be taken along
with her.

At the Northwest Station they were both booked
for investigation of assault and shooting.

I then Immediately took Mrs. Sheppard over into
the Sergeant's room where I talced to her about the informatioi
that we had had and as to who the other woman was with her.

While I was talking to her I was advised that
there was a Mrs. Mitchell in the courtroom or in the building
wanting to see me.

But before X— I'n a little ahead of my story.
While I was talking to Mrs. Sheppard she still denied to tell
me who the other lady was or what the conversation was.

She said, "1 don't know what this other lady
said. I don't have anything to do with what the other lady

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said."
Whan I got out into the hall to meat Mrs.

Mitchell, she was with two other young ladies, and on older
lady, and she began talking to me, and I found out from
talking to her that the other lady who was with her was the
other lady that was in the taxicab, and I related to her why
we had Mrs. Sheppard there in front of Mrs. Mitchell. This
was all in front of Mrs. Mitchell.

And I related to Mrs. Snowden, who the other
lady was, as she was identified later, what had taken place
and why Mrs. Sheppard was arrested and we were looking for
Mrs. Snowden to talk to her.

And 1 asked Mrs. Snowden what had been said in
the taxicab to make this cab driver give this report, if
anything was said about the Veney brothers or someone's son
going around and shooting a police officer, in front of Mrs.

Mitchell.
Mrs. Snowden then said she could have mentioned

the Veney8, the Veney brothers and that it was possible she
said, "At least we don't have sons that go out and get
liquored up and go around shooting police officers."

I said, "Then you did say about going out and
shooting police officers and somebody's son going out getting
liquored up?"

And she said, "Yes, and I said that at least we

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don't have a son or you don't have a son, meaning Mrs. Sheppar
didn't have a son that went out and got liquored up."

Satisfied from ay investigation as to what took
place, that it was possibly the cab driver misunderstood what
took place and what was said, we ended our investigation and
Mrs. Sheppard and her son was released.

V 457
BY MR. SAUSE: — ------- — ----

\ Q Sergeant, do you see the lady that you are
referring to in the courtroom today?

A Yes, 1 do. They are in the seat back there,
and Mrs. Sheppard is on the left, and Mrs. Snowden has the
red hat on, over there on the right, and her son Roscoe
Cooper is on the left.

Q Roscoe Cooper is the one that went to the polio
station with you? \

A Yes, he went along with his mother to the
station.

Q Now, Sergeant, do you remember who was the last
one out of Mrs. Sheppard's house when you went to the police
station?

A Who was the last?
Q Yes. Well, let me rephrase it.

Do you remember if there were any efforts made
to secure the home when you left with them? \

A Yes, the home was secured, yes. Ir-

753

Go ahead.
I remember on the front sidewalk, after Mrs.

Sheppard and her son was taken out, and I recall that someone
had been cooking, and I was talking to Mrs. Sheppard and asked
her if everything was turned off, and she said that it was, all
doors were secured when I had left.

1 personally locked the front door and 1 asked
if the house were secure and everybody was out, and it was

V
secured, and Mrs. Sheppard was asked whether her stove was
turned off and everything was all right, and she said that it
was.

Q Now, do you recall, sir, any lights on in the
home?

A Do I recall if there was any lights on in the
home? \

Q Yes. y
A When we arrived or when we left? Which?
Q When you left? \
A No, 1 don't think there was any lights on when

we left.
THE COURT: Did anybody search the house or wac

it just a conversation in the front room?
THE WITNESS: We looked through. We were

o
looking for people

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BY MR. SAUSE:
Q Approximately what time was it that Mrs. Sheppar

was released?
A I'm not sure. But I have it in the folder here

1 think it was approximately 2:30 that same day.
Q Sergeant, when you went into the home did anyone

seize Mrs. Sheppard?
A What do you mean "seize"? Do you mean take hoi

of her?
Q Take hold of her?
A No, she was met at the door by Lieutenant— two

officers from the special detail and Lieutenant Cadden, and
she opened the door, and she was--I was right there, and she
wasn't touched.

She was talked to, and she was advised what our
mission was there, and she says, "Come on in."

Q Anybody push her up against the wall?
A No.
Q Anybody rush in and grab her grandson, Roscoe

Cooper?
A Grab her or him?
Q Yes.
A After we got inside I saw Roscoe standing in the

living room, and I patted Roscoe down for a gun.
Q Well, did you ever see anyone holding her

physically or restraining her or anything like that?
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A There was no need to
THE COURT: Why did you pat him down? Did y<

think he was one of the Veneys?
THE WITNESS: Well, there was also another cai

that I was investigating, the case of an officer Dodd Charxs
who was shot at right directly behind the coliseum, which is
only a block from this location, and the gentleman that took
the shot at Officer Dodd Chavis, he just said, "Hey, cop,"
and took a shot at him. That's about all we had of it.

what the description that was given by Officer Charis, and th
description was, this was nighttime and the place, it's
possible he could be the man that also shot at Officer Charis

This gentleman named Mr. Cooper resembles some'

THE COURT: He resembled the description given
by whom?

THE WITNESS: By Officer Charis.
THE COURT: How do you spell it?
THE WITNESS: C-h-a-r-i-s, Dodd Charis, North

western District.
THE COURT: Dodd?
THE WITNESS: Dodd, D-o-d-d.
And when I say description, a general descrip

tion, 1 don't know about the age.
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q Sergeant, when you went to this home on Monroe

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THE COURT:
MR. SAUSE:
THE COURT:
MR. SAUSE:
THE COURT:

et, you were not participating exclusively—
MR. HABRIT: Objection; a leading question, You

Honor.
THE COURT: Oh, well, it's an explanation. H^

has told why he went. I think you can argue it.
MR. SAUSE: I'll withdraw the question.

The Court understands the point
Yes, sir.
I understand what you mean.
Yes, sir. \
The officer was aware of this othe::

shooting as well, as well as of the Greenmount Avenue shooting
He was aware of the Monroe Street shooting. From there on
it's argument, I guess.
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q Did the Monroe Street incident or the shooting
behind the coliseum play any part in the investigation that yj:
made at that time?

A N I had it in mind when I went to the 2000 block
of North Monroe Street.

Q Now, Sergeant, you refrained from using the wor|c
"belligerent", I think, and you indicated that Mrs. Sheppard
at some point refused to answer any questions; is that correcjl

THE COURT: Well, that's a leading question
What he said was that he wanted to know about a statement she

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made in a cab, and she said, "That's no business of yours."
\ And then he said they decided to take her to tht

\station. /
Mow, if you want to ask if anything else was

said before they decided to take her to the station, you may
do so; but 1 don't think you ought to characterize his
testimony by leading questions. j

MR. SAUSE: I don't understand how I did, Your
Honor.

THE COURT: Well, you characterized that she
refused to answer questions; and what he said was, according
to ray notes, if ray note is right, that he wanted to know aboû :
a statement in the cab, about a statement that was made in a
taxicab about a shooting, and she said, "That's no business
of yours." \

Then he said they decided to take her down.
Mow, that's my note. There may have been something else
said. If I have overlooked something you may call it to my
attention or have the Reporter do so.

If you want to ask him if anything else was
said, you may ask him; but I'm not going to allow you to
characterize it in the way of leading questions.

MR. SAUSE:
Q Sergeant, what else was said prior to the time

that you took Mrs. Sheppard to the police station, if anything

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A Well, like I said before, Lieutenant Cadden was
talking to Mrs* Sheppard while I was doing other things in the
house, and like I said, I was talking to Roscoe, and 1 patted
Roscoe Cooper down.

So 1 overheard Lieutenant Cadden talking to Mrs.
Sheppard relative to where she had, if she had just gotten
home that morning and where she had come from and how she had
gotten there and what kind of transportation she used.

And she stated that she did come from St. Paul
and Fayette and that she had just gotten home and she came
home in a taxicab and she was with another woman but she
wouldn't state who the other woman was.

There was more conversation, I mean, trying to
get her to tell us who the other lady was and why we wanted to
know about the statement and we told her what her statement
was supposed to be.

She said she don't know anything about shootings
or what this other lady said.

She told me that same thing in the station house,
and she cannot, she will not tell me anything, and she can't
help it if—-well, she didn't tell me then, what Mrs. Snowden
said. I mean, it's up to her what she said. It's none of
our business what Mrs. Snowden said, and after repeated times,
I don't know how many times, two or three or four times,
Lieutenant Cadden tried to get this information from Mrs.

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Sheppard and we were on an investigation of a shooting, someoni
son going out and shooting a police officer-

And it would have been very easy for her to tell
us what was said and it would have cleared the whole situation
up inxnediately.

MR. NABRIT: Object and move to strike the
opinion of the witness how easy it would have been for the
witness to answer, for Mrs. Sheppard to answer.

it out.

THE COURT: Strike it out if you want. Strike

Who arrested her? You or Lieutenant Cadden?
Who made the decision to arrest her?

THE WITNESS: Well, I guess it would be the
officer in charge. I was right there. I was with Lieutenan
Cadden.

station?

THE COURT: Well, who told her to come to the

THE WITNESS: The Lieutenant did.
THE COURT: Old anyone take hold of her to take

her at any time?
THE WITNESS: Only maybe to help her down the

steps, to keep her by the arm. I was right there.
THE COURT: When he told her to come to the

station she went?
THE WITNESS: Yes, she went without any—

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THE COURT: Without any force?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: All right.

BY MR. SAUSE:
Q Sergeant, did you at any time go into the cellax

of this home?
A The basement? The cellar?
Q Yes.
A Yes, I did.
Q What was the purpose of going there?
A Looking for the— a person.

THE COURT: Looking for whom?
THE WITNESS: Whom? Oh, someone that may have

shot any police officer. We don't know who. There's one
case we don't know who it is, and possibly the Veney brothers.

THE COURT: Well, had you identified— you had
already seen this man Cooper, hadn't you?

THE WITNESS: Yes, he was on that first floor.
THE COURT: And had you been told that he was

her son?
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
THE COURT: And he didn't run away down in the

cellar or anything, did he?
THE WITNESS: No.

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BY MR. SAUSE:
Q Sergeant, when you le£t the basement was It in

the same condition as when you went down there?
A There was nothing in the basement to change.

I mean, it was just a routine basement check.
Q Well, this suggestion here that someone tore

this basement apart; is that correct?
A 1 don't know. You say tore it apart. I don't

know what you mean. There was nothing in the basement to
tear apart. It was a routine basement furnace as a basement
would have, I mean.

It was, I mean, no club basement, just a routine
cellar or basement, whatever you want to call it.

Q Well, what did you do down there?
A Just looked mostly for a person.
Q At any time did anyone— did Mrs. Sheppard

request permission to make a phone call?
A It's quite possible. Just right before I was

told that Mrs. Mitchell was outside she could have said that,
"Can I make a phone call?"

And I said, "You can." I said, "Wait until I
come back. I have to see someone," and she could have said
she wanted to make a phone call.

THE COURT: Well, you say she may have and you
answered. Are you just imagining what may have happened or

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what you would have said or do you remember that she did and
that you made a reply?

THE WITNESS: Well, I'll say, before Mrs.
Snowden came in she requested to make a phone call. She
requested.
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q Do you recall her making any such request prior
to that time?

A No.
THE COURT: Was anything said at the home or

as she was leaving the home about making a call?
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: Or at the time she was arrested?
THE WITNESS: No, sir.

BY MR. SAUSE:
Q Did you ride to the police radio station in the

same radio car that Mrs. Sheppard was in?
A No, I did not. I had my own car to take back

with me.
Q What did Mrs. Sheppard say when you and the

Lieutenant or whoever it was asked her to come to the police
station?

A What did Mrs. Sheppard say?
Q Yes, if you remember it? v
A I can't remember if anything was said or not.

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-------------—---- --

MR. SAUSE: Your witness.
CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. HUGHES:
Q Sergeant, if I understand you correctly two

people preceded Lieutenant Cadden into the house; is that
right?

A They went in, yes/
Q Anybody ring the bell?
A They rapped, knocked.
Q With what?
A With their hands.
Q Not with their guns?
A With their hands.
Q Did they have rifles or machine guns?
A I think they had riot guns.
Q Riot guns?
A Yes.
Q Was there a vestibule there or not?
A I think it was a double door situation; I mean

an outer door and an inner door.
Q Did they rap on both doors?
A I think the outer door.
Q Now, who went in first?
A I believe one of the officers from the special

unit after Lieutenant Cadden who was behind the two officers

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stated his business to these— -to this lady. The lady was
Mrs. Sheppard, and she let him into the house, one of the, or
both of the officers went in, and Lieutenant Cadden was right
behind the two officers, and I went in behind Lieutenant
Cadden.

Q The two officers with rifles went in first?
A Yes.
Q And they did not speak?
A Sir?
Q They did not say anything?
A Lieutenant Cadden did the talking, to the best

of my knowledge.
Q Did someone proceed immediately to the rear or

go upstairs?
A We had someone on the back of the house. We

had a couple of radio cars in the back of the house.
Q Did you go back to signal them?
A What took place, like 1 say, I went into the

living room, and where other officers went, I could not say;
1 don't know.

Q You never left the living room?
A Sir?
Q You never left the living room?
A 1 never left the living room other than go at

the time after we were satisfied that there was no one there

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It was going to do any shooting.
THE COURT: I thought you said you went in the

cellar.
THE WITNESS: 1 did.

\ THE COURT: You did?
THE WITNESS: I did. He asked me i£ 1 ever

went anywhere else and I said until after we were satisfied
that there was nobody else there to shoot, then 1 went into
the basement.
BY MR. HUGHES:

Q Well, who satisfied you that there was no one
in the cellar?

A Who satisfied me? 1 don't know all the office:
names was there.

Q Who satisfied you there was no one upstairs?
A 1 don't know.
Q Was Cooper upstairs when you went in?
A No, sir. 1 found Cooper in the living room.
Q How long did it take you after entering the

house, how long did it take you to ascertain that there was n<
one there other than Mrs. Sheppard and her grandson?

A The time, 1 couldn't, the exact time, I couldn'
say, I wasn't timing myself to be honest.

Q Well, would it be one, two, three minutes?
A I really don't know.

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Q And as a matter of fact, Officer, you can see
from the front door all the way through the rear, can't you?
You can see right through the door?

A I can't answer that; 1 don't know.
Q How many rooms were upstairs?
A 1 never got upstairs at all.
Q How long were you In the house before Mrs.

Sheppard was told she was under arrest?
A Approximately, I didn't time myself, and the

time goes fast when you're on something like that. It could
have been five minutes or ten minutes. I don't know.

Q Did she tell you that she lived in the same
house for eighteen years?

A She didn't tell me, no, when I talked to her in
the station house or in the house.

Q Either place?
A In the station house when I was interrogating

her she could have told me.
Q Did she tell you that her son could not go out

on the street unattended?
A In the station house?
Q Because of a physical condition?
A Hot during my investigation.

did you?
Q Then you didn't do any questioning at the house,

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A Yes„ The Lieutenant was talking to her.

THE COURT: Well, this is a little ambiguous.
I don't know whether you mean he personally or the group
Including Lieutenant Cadden.

Did you personally ask her any questions?
\ THE WITNESS: At the house?

THE COURT: At the house?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: So he, I think he took to mean

Lieutenant Cadden, and he overheard it.
BY MR. HUGHES:

q Well, did you hear anyone questioning her at
the house?

A Well, like I said before, after we got in we
tried to ascertain if Mrs. Sheppard was the lady that came
from St. Paul and Fayette Street just previously to us gettln
there and that she got home in a taxicab after we were talkin
to the, trying to ascertain if we were talking to the right
lady, and I take it that is what the Lieutenant was doing,
and I was overhearing him, and when he was through, I mean he
was talking to the lady that was supposed to have made this
remark, or one of the ladies that was supposed to have made
this remark in the taxicab, and he began asking her questions
relative to what was said about shooting any police officers
and going out and getting liquored up, about somebody's son.

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And after numerous times, two or three or four

times talking on this subject she would not tell us anything
about this, the statement or who she had in the cab, and it
was decided then that we would talk further with her in the
station house.

Q When did you last talk to the cab driver?
A When?
Q Yes.
A The same day this took place.
Q You haven't seen him since?
A No, sir.
Q And you didn't see him until three o'clock in

the afternoon of that arrest?
A No.

THE COURT: Well, you say— did he say three

o'clock?
MR. HUGHES: That's what 1 understood him to

say, around about that.
THE WITNESS: I didn't say that at all.
THE COURT: I didn't understand that he had

said it. Of course, the date is shown on the statement as
two thirty-five, the time, but I didn't understand him to say
it, and the time of this statement here is two fifty-five, so
it apparently took twenty minutes to take the statement, as
Eha signed statement is two fifty-five.

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MR. HUGHES: Yes.
BY MR. HUGHES:

Q When you first received a tip or notice about
Mrs. Sheppard, am I correct in saying that was 11:20 a.m.?

A Approximately.
Q And you didn't go to the house until about

twelve o'clock?
A Approximately, again, 1 wasn't actually keeping

time of the chain of events at that time. 1 was conducting
an investigation.

Q Did the surveillance squad proceed you?
A Not that I know of. If Lieutenant Cadden had

something previous to this, because he shouldn't have because
he didn't know where he was going until he talked to me.

Q How long did you stake out the house?
A What?
Q How long did it take to stake out the automoblli

MR. SAUSE: I don't understand that.
THE COURT: 1 don't understand the question

either. Did you say "stake out"?
MR. HUGHES: Yes, sir, or to designate where

they were to stop.
BY MR. HUGHES:

Q You said there were a number of squad cars,
didn't you?

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A Yes, sir, that is correct.\
\ Q How many were there?

A Mine end the cere I had there, I had advised
before leaving, and Lieutenant Cadden took care of the ones
he had*

Q How many were there?
A I had Cruising Patrol 6 . I had the Radio Car

601 manned by two men and the Radio Car 602 by two men and 1
had SP 6, cruising patrol by two men, the post car by one man
and myself.

That is cay District, District men.
Q Was the Emergency Unit there?
A They were, and they had the large wagon that is

used for, that is equipped for riots, et cetera, and 1 think
there was--I'm not positive now, but I think he had two cars
involved with him chat went with him; I'm not sure.

Q This was right near the corner of North Avenue,
wasn't it?

Q
A

Where we met or where we went?
Where you went?
Yes, where we went, near the corner.
It's a small two-story row house, is it not?
I believe so. I didn't— I mean I didn't look

the house over like you asked me for about the partitions, I
can't remember, because I wasn't looking for partitions or h

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far you could see from the front door. X wasn't looking so
I couldn't answer you truthfully on that.

Q After you had ascertained that no one else was
in the house, why didn't you go to the station house and get
a warrant for her arrest and leave someone there?

THE COURT: Well, I understand he wasn't in
charge. I think you will have to ask Lieutenant Cadden about

that.
He said he did not make the arrest, that

Lieutenant Cadden made the arrest; and I imagine that it's
Lieutenant Cadden's decision.
BY MR. HUGHES:

Q Do you have the arrest record with you?
A I think the folder is here.

THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. HUGHES:

Q You prepared that, did you?
A No, sir, the desk sergeant prepared the arrest

and find out if this man made the arrest then of course this

question is proper.
MR. HUGHES: May I see those records?
THE COURT: Have you got the arrest record?
MR. MURPHY: May we have a moment, Your Honor?

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THE COURT: Yes.
MR. SAUSE: Let me say, Your Honor, that first

of all this is most irregular because the client whom Mr.
Hughes purportedly or apparently represents is not even a
party in this case. How, this is shading over pretty much
what Your Honor has stated.

THE COURT: You mean on discovery?
MR. SAUSE: Yes, sir, and this does not refer

to anything on direct and this is a sort of a back discovery.
THE COURT: Well, 1 would have thought that a g

deal that you put on was unnecessary; but it's certainly
proper cross-examination of what you put on.

MR. HUGHES: This has to do with the case
generally.

THE COURT: That's right, and this question
certainly bears on both aspects; it bears upon the particular
rights of Mrs. Sheppard, and my question is whether it is prop
cross-examination of what you put in.

1 think her arrest is an isolated incident in
this affair because she was not arrested in connection with
the Veneys in any way. She was arrested in connection with,
I think when they got around to, they knew the Veneys weren't
there.

How, this arrest, so far as I can see, is the
only arrest that has been brought to the Court's attention of

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anyone who was arrested for investigation and questioning.
There may have been others,but this is the only one except the
two accomplices who were dug up as to which there has been
any evidence.

Now, there are very broad allegations in the
complaint, and it is right hard to say where the line should
be drawn.

Have you got the arrest warrant? They are
certainly entitled to see it; it’s a matter of public record,
and at the present time I am not allowing this question of
this witness.

If it's asked of some other witness I'll
consider it, and this man, according to his testimony, and
according to the testimony before me so far, he had no
responsibility for making the arrest.

Did you swear out the arrest warrant?
MR. MURPHY: There wasn't any.
MR. SAUSE: There wasn't any.
He asked for an arrest register, Your Honor.
MR. HUGHES: Arrest record.
THE COURT: Arrest record, yes. There wasn't

any arrest warrant. You spoke of a warrant. There wasn't
ever any warrant.

He said she was booked, was the way 1 had it
down, that she was booked for Investigation. He didn't say

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he did it.

Have you got the record here, Mr. Murphy?
MR. MURPHY: I don't believe we have the arrest

Well, don't you have a copy o£ it?
We can get it, Your Honor.
Yes.
I think you had better get it.
Yes.

1 think you had better get it.
The witness can be recalled. I'm not going to allow this
question to be asked now.

MR. NABRIT: Our request will be for the bookin
record of Roscoe Cooper and of Mrs. Sheppard.

THE COURT: Was Cooper arrested?
MR. NABRIT: He was booked.
THE COURT: He was booked.
MR. NABRIT: Isn't that correct, Mrs. Mitchell!
MRS. MITCHELL: Yes.
MR. NABRIT: She has seen the record.

BY MR. HUGHES:
Q Sergeant, what do you mean when you say "booked'f
A In other words they are taken into the station

house, taken before the desk sergeant where the desk sergeant
makes--goes through a procedure of filling out a form which i

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this is taking anyone who is arrested and is held either £or
a charge of disorderly conduct going up or held for investiga
tion, which Mrs. Sheppard was.

Q For investigation?
1 ?0

A That's right.
Was she questioned in the presence of the desk

Questioned?
Yes.
You mean relative to what we are talking about?
Yes.
No.
Was she taken tinned lately to a cell?
To a cell?
Yes.
Not to my knowledge, no.
Was she put in a cell?
Not to my knowledge. It's possible she wasn't-

when we arrived at the Northwest Station I was immediately
told by the clerk that I was wanted on the telephone. I
went— I had to take that phone over in the sergeant's room.

I also had to make a phone call. I received
this phone call and I made it, the one I wanted to make which
took me about between two to three minutes altogether.

I came back to the hall, and I don't know which

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of officers it was that was there, and I said, "Bring Mrs.
Sheppard over into the sergeant's room," a matter of two
minutes, and when I left they were just finishing booking
Roscoe Cooper, and it takes three, four, five minutes to book
someone.

THE COURT: Well, who participated in the
booking? That's the question they are asking.

THE WITNESS: The desk sergeant.
THE COURT: And who told the sergeant what to

put in the arrest register?
THE WITNESS: You mean as to the charge?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: From instructions from the

Lieutenant,before I left the scene I asked if he wanted them
booked, and he said yes, and he also— I said, "For what shall
I charge them with?" And he told me, apprised me then to
charge them— not charge them, book them for investigation of
assault and robbery relative to the Dodd Charis shooting.

THE COURT: Relative to the what?
THE WITNESS: Dodd, Officer Dodd Charis.
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I mean assault and

shooting.
THE COURT: Now, did you then tell or did you

take charge of the booking and tell the desk sergeant what to

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777

book them for?
THE WITNESS: When I got to the Northwest Stati

I advised the desk sergeant as to the officers to put on the
case, who instructed me Lieutenant Cadden, myself, and I
think there was two officers, the original officers who got
the information, Officer Hess and Officer Larrimore.

I think they are the four officers you will fin<
on the arrest register. 472

THE COURT: All right. I think that makes it
clehr.
BY MR.\HUGHES:

Q \ Officer, how long were Mrs. Sheppard and Mr.
Cooper, how long were they at the station house?

A All told?
Q Yes.
A You wil\find a time on the arrest register as

to what time they were. \
Q According to yoyr best recollection?

THE COURT: Well, I don't think there is any
\

need of going into this. I think it's now getting into
discovery.

issues in this case.

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BY MR. HUGHES:
Q Well, let me ask you this, Sergeant: Did either

Mrs. Sheppard or her grandson tell you anything at the station
house that differed from what they told you In their home?

A Yes— not different, but they told more. In oth
words Mrs. Sheppard went Into more detail; 1 asked her more
questions In the station house. 1 went into detail, and 1

talked about her son, and I contacted Central Records and
found out that her son was arrested previously.

I talked to her about that, what it was about.
THE COURT: When had her son been arrested

before?
THE WITNESS: In 1939 for rape.

BY MR. HUGHES:
Q 1939?
A 1939. 1 believe, if my memory now— I think

that' 8 what it was.
MR. HUGHES: I object to that.
THE COURT: Well, that's already In the record.

It's already in the record, I think, that he had no record
except the charge of rape which was not carried through.

MR. NABRIT: If Your Honor please, the rape was
only mentioned at the bench conference.

THE COURT: Well, all, right. \ He was saying
what he did at the time.

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We're not trying this case now; there is no jury
and there isn't any question that he had been arrested, and
there had been some question about it before, and the point is
the only point that makes any difference, it seems to me, with
respect to that is that according to the witness' testimony,
as I understand it, is that she had refused to talk about the
telephone conversation in the taxicab when she was at home.

And now did she talk to you about the conversa
tion in the taxicab at the station house?

THE WITNESS: She did, and she told me that she
went down to the Veterans' Administration to see about getting
her son more money.

THE GOURT: Well, did you take a written state
ment from her?

THE WITNESS: Mrs. Sheppard, no.
THE COURT: Did you make notes of it at this

time?

conversation?

THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:

THE WITNESS:
THE GOURT:
THE WITNESS:

No, sir, something in the file.
Did she say anything about the

She would not—
— in the cab?
She did not make any statements

about her son or anyone getting liquored up and shooting a
police officer, but the other lady said about this she would

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not tall me. That's her business, she said.
THE COURT: And she still took that position at

the station house? She held to that position in the station?
THE WITNESS: That's right.

BY MR. HUGHES:
Q And nobody mentioned the Veney brothers?
A I asked her in the station house about the Veney

brothers and she said she don't know anything about the Veney
brothers.

Was she refused permission to make a telephone
call?

A Was she refused? No.
Q Did she make one?
A No.
Q Let me ask you at this time: Did you tell Mrs.

Snowden that it's good she came to the station house because
you were coming to pick her up?

A 1 said I'm glad that she is there.
Q Why?
A Because I wanted to talk with her.
Q Did you send any officer to arrest her?

MR. SAUSE: Oh, if Your Honor please--
THE COURT: Sustained. \
MR. HUGHES: I think that's all.
MR. NABRIT: I have a few questions, Your Honor

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THE COURT: All right.
\ CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. NABRIT:
\ Q What time, when was it when you called Central

Records? Was that after Mrs. Sheppard had been brought to
the station?

A While I was talking to Mrs. Sheppard in the
sergeant's room, I had one of the officers step out and use
another phone and obtain records on him.

Q Now, had she told you Mrs. Snowden's name during
that time?

A Just previously, just previously to Mrs. Mitchel
arriving at the station house, this, she wasn't in the station
house too long, and Just previously to Mrs. Sheppard, to Mrs.
Mitchell's coming into the station house with Mrs. Snowden.

Q Tell me this: Were officers sent to Mrs.
Snowden's house during that period?

MR. SAUSE: I object.
THE COURT: What materiality does that have if

they were going to question her? Certainly there were perfec
reasons for questioning her in view of the
through from the taxi driver. There's no
right to question her.

The question of the right to
different matter; but they would have been derelict

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duty if they had not questioned her.
I make that ruling right now that there can't be

any possible question about it.
MR. NABRIT: May it please the Court, I'm

asking a question pertaining to something the witness said
on direct examination about the sequence of events.

THE COURT: I don't remember anything about the
sequence of events of sending for Mrs. Snowden. Did he say
that?

MR. NABRIT: No, he didn't mention it, and that
why I'm asking him.

THE COURT: He didn't mention it?
MR. NABRIT:

why I'm asking him.
THE COURT:

He did not mention it. That's

Well, all right. 1 have not ruled
against you, but as to what you have found, Just before Mrs.
Snowden arrived with Mrs. Mitchell, Mrs. Sheppard had mentions
Mrs. Snowden as the name of the woman who was in the cab with
her.

MR. NABRIT: I'm trying to find out from the
earlier time officers had been dispatched to Mrs. Snowden's
house.
BY MR. NABRIT:

Q Do you know?
MR. MURPHY: We object to it again, Your Honor

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It’s irrelevant. It has no relevance.
\ THE COURT: I don't see the materiality of it.

I don't know whether they had her name.
BY MR. NABRIT:

Q Was the emergency vehicle sent to Mrs. Snowden'
house? \

THE COURT: What difference does that make?
\Mrs. Snowden didn't testify that any effort was made to enter

her house. \
MR. NABRIT: Mrs. Snowden testified that she

was not at home and she left home immediately after she
entered. \

THE COURT: Well, that's right, and I think
it's not proper cross-examination and not material to any
issues in this case. \

MR. NABRIT: Is the objection sustained, Your
Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. \
MR. NABRIT: Exception.

BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Now, when you got your information you said you

got it from a cruiser patrol?
A It was relayed from a cruising patrol to Radio

Car 601.
Q And you got the information from Radio Car 601?

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784
A That's correct.

Q So the officers of 601 told you what the office]
in the cruiser patrol had told them about what the cab driver
had told them about what one o£ these ladies had said in the
taxicab; is that right?

A That's right.
* • > y Q And on the basis of that and on the basis of

your relay of that information to Lieutenant Cadden you went
to the house; is that right?

A After talking to the radio car, like I said
previously, I asked them about if they had the cab driver, if
they had his name, and so on and so forth, and they said yes
that the information was good.

Q Now, did you talk to the cab driver before you

went to Mrs. Sheppard's house?
A No.

Q Make any effort to?

A Contact the cab driver, no.

Q Do you know if Lieutenant Cadden made any effoi

to?
A What?

Q Do you know whether or not Lieutenant Cadden
made any effort to talk to the cab driver?

A No, he did not.

Q Did you ascertain who lived in that house befoi

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you went there, in 2003 North Monroe?
A No, I don't think we did; I didn't.
Q As far as you know, Lieutenant Cadden didn't knc
A I don't know; he'll have to answer that.
Q Did you make any investigation in the neighborhc

or did the other officers make any investigation in the
neighborhood before you entered her house, about who lived in
2003?

A We went to the house at the time—
Q Personal knowledge that you know by yourself?
A As far as I know we went to the house prepared

to apprehend someone that was going to shoot us.
Q Well, could you answer my question as to whethei

or not you made inquiries in the neighborhood?
MR. SAUSE: I object.
THE WITNESS: I didn't.
MR. SAUSE: 1 say, if Your Honor please, this is

completely irrelevant. They were going to this house.
THE COURT: It's a question of probable cause.

As I understand it, they never made any inquiries as to who
lived in the house. If you want me to make that finding, al
right.

At the present time I'm prepared to find that
when they were given the address of a house they never made
any inquiries as to who lived there.

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Now, is that the finding that should be made?
MR. SAUSE: If Your Honor please, this case is

entirely different from the other. They had specific informs
tion about a person—

THE COURT: That's right.
MR. SAUSE: About a person having said somethin

and going into that house. It was completely irrelevant to
the police—

THE COURT: About who this someone was.
MR. SAUSE: About who the someone was, yes.
THE COURT: I'm inclined to think that's true.

We haven't gotten to that point.
I don't see any occasion for making the inquiry

here if the reasonable cause was sufficient. I'm not saying
that it was.

MR. SAUSE: Well, I'm just objecting on the
grounds that the question was irrelevant, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I don't think it's irrelevant, but
I didn't see any use in it because so far as I know they never
did make any Inquiry as to who lived in any houses that they
may have gone to.
BY MR. NABRIT:

Q Officer, answer the question?
THE COURT: Yes, I'll overrule the objection.
MR. MURPHY: If he knows.

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THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the question
again, please?
BY HR. NABRIT:

Q Whether or not you made any inquiries in the
neighborhood about who lived in that house, 2003 North Monroe,
before you entered the house?

A I did not.
Q Did you have any warrant for the arrest of Mrs.

Sheppard or Roscoe Cooper?
A No, we did not.
Q Did you have any warrant to search 2003 North

Monroe?
A No, we did not.
Q Did you actually— 8crike that.

What was Roscoe Cooper booked for?
A The same as his mother. j 7'7
Q Which was?
A Assault and shooting a police officer.
Q Now, you have referred to the shooting of

Officer Dodd Charis?
A Yes.
Q Was that officer actually wounded?
A He was struck. The bullet hit his hat.
Q The bullet hit his hat but did not hit his body

787

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his hat on his head.
MR. NABRIT: I'm asking the witness.

BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Did you--

THE COURT: Well, what difference does it make?
MR. SAUSE: I object to it as being immaterial.
THE COURT: What difference does it make

whether it hit his hat or hit him, it's an assault.
MR. NABRIT: Well, if Your Honor please, we

would like to--
THE COURT: There can't be any question about

an assault there, is there?
MR. NABRIT: Well, if it please the Court, the

witness ha8 testified in his language about the shooting of
Officer Charis.

THE COURT: Yes.
MR. NABRIT: And I'm trying to establish

whether Officer Charis was shot or whether he was shot at.
MR. SAUSE: I object.
MR. NABRIT: It may make a difference, Your

Honor, in connection with this whether he was an accessory
after the fact, whether this crime was committed.

THE COURT: You mean whether It hit him or hit
his hat—

MR. NABRIT: It might make a difference.

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THE COURT: You mean it might make a difference

in the quality of an accessory? 1 don't know enough about
the criminal statutes to know, to answer that.

Does anybody here have any information on that?
MR. NABRIT: 1 think it's for the witness to

answer. \V
THE COURT: Yes, of course, I think we ought to

have what did happen. We might as well get it in.
MR. NABRIT: He has testified about that crime
THE COURT: What was hit? Did the bullet hit

him?
THE WITNESS: To the best of my knowledge, I

don't think the bullet pierced his head; the bullet struck hiis
shield on his hat, the shield, and knocked the head off the
shield, the shield that he wears on his hat.

He was taken to the hospital, and there are
medical records if you want to get them.
BY MR. NABRIT:

Q Officer, you testified about, you had a general
description of the man who, a general description given by
Officer Charis of the man who assailed him; right?

A A general, I mean it wasn'^--
\VQ Isn't it true that, and that happened on

\January 2nd about two a.m.?
A That is correct.

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\ Q And isn't it true that the man, the man also
matched the general description of Sam Veney?

A I don't know.
Q Did you participate in the search for the

Veneys? \
A Did I what?
Q Did you participate in the search for the Veneyi
A Did I participate in it? No, only on this

particular occasion, this is the only search that 1 was
involved in pertaining to me in my district where 1 had a
complaint on involving my own complaint.

Q So, did you know Samuel Veney, the other,
Samuel Veney's description?

A Oh, we received it over the air and over the
Teletype and et cetera, through the newspaper and pictures.
That description. 1 don't know him personally.

Q Were you investigating the case involving
Officer Charis?

MR. SAUSE: Well, if Your Honor please, I
would just like to note that 1 asked that question, and he
objected.

THE COURT: All right. Now, he has asked the
question, and the Officer can answer it fully. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: Whether I saw him?
THE COURT: No.

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BY MR. NABRIT:
Q The question is, did you investigate the case o

Officer Charis?
A No, I did not.
Q Now, when Roscoe Cooper was booked, after he waA

booked, was he put in a cell?
A Roscoe was, yes.
Q And were his belongings and his belt taken from

him? \
A Yes, which is routine procedure; the personal

belongings are taken.
Q Did you attempt to interrogate him?
A After 1 talked with his mother and she told me

that he was a patient at Perry Point, and he wes liable to
tell you anything, and before I had an opportunity to go
further and maybe, could talk to him, my questions were
answered after Mrs. Mitchell came into the station house with
Mrs. Snowden, ray questions were answered at that time, which
I had, Mr8. Sheppard had told me previously about her son,
and that Mrs. Mitchell had told me in the courtroom where we
had talked about her son and two young ladies was with her
satisfied me, knowing Mrs. Mitchell is a reliable citisen, 1
felt that I had no more cause to talk to Roscoe Cooper.

\
Q Where were you when Mrs. Sheppard was taken out

V
of the house?

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A Where was I?

\ q when she left the house and got In the police
\

car, where were you?
A Well, she just, she wasn't rushed right out.

She went, I'm pretty sure, she went In and made sure every
thing was turned off, her gas.

Q Well, where were you then?
A I was in the first floor generally.
Q Where? On the steps out front?
A I think she was in the radio car already when I

got to the steps; I'm not sure.
Q So that you don't remember what happened as she

went from her house to the radio car? You didn't see it?
A Mo.

MR. MABRIT: That's all the questions subject
to ray recall about the arrest, the arrest records getting

here.
MR. MURPHY: We could put those in. Are they

here? We can put those in through Lieutenant Cadden who wil
testify, who will testify to the same thing; so the Officer

won't have to stay.
THE COURT: Well, if the Officer has duties,

let him go, and he can be brought back if necessary. He
has said now that he gave the information to the desk
sergeant on the instructions of Lieutenant Cadden. I don't

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"-know what more anybody would have to ask him.
You can recall him, but I think the Officer had

better get back on duty.
MR. NABRIT: That's agreeable, Your Honor.
MR. MURPHY: No questions. Thank you, very

much, Sergeant.
(Witness left the stand.)

MR. MURPHY: Will you indulge me a moment, You

Honor.
Thereupon

DETECTIVE LESTER C. SHEARER
was called as a witness for and on behalf of the defendant
and, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified

as follows:
THE CLERK: State your full name.
THE WITNESS: Detective Lester C. Shearer.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. SAUSE:
Q Detective Shearer, how long have you been with

the police force?
A It will be twelve years in April.

Q Directing your attention to January 4th of thij
year, in the evening, were you on duty at that time?

A Yes, I was.
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Q Where were you on duty, sir?
A I was in the office, working the four to twelve

shift.
Q All right. Now, did you receive any informatit

with regard to a certain outstanding arrest warrant involving
crimes that took place on January 24th and January 25th on
Oreenmount Avenue?

A Yes, sir.
Q Now, would you tell His Honor--

HR. HUGHES: You said January.
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q December 24th and 25th.
Did you--would you tell His Honor, please, the

information that you received at that time?
A Well, I received a phone call from a voice

sounded as though it was a man, and he said that he knew the
Veneys, and that they were--he knew both of the Veneys
personally, and they were both in this address on Rosedale
Street.

Q Did you ever know what the address was?
A The best 1 can recall it was 2204.
Q Now, was there anything else said at that time?
A 1 asked him who he was, and he wouldn't answer;

Now, what did you do with that Information that

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he hung up.

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you received?

A I relayed it to the Northeastern District, and
Officer Robert DePaola answered the phone, and J .oldytlm
what the message was and he said, "We've already received
information on that address."

Q Approximately what time was it that you receive*
this information, Detective?

A That was around 8:30 p.m.
Q And did you relay this information immediately

to the Northeastern District?
180A Yes, 1 did.

MR. SAUSE: Your witness.
CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Detective Shearer, did you participate in the

search at 2204 North Rosedale Street?
A No, sir.
Q Was that your first and only conversation, I

mean you described the only conversation about this address;
is that right?

A That's the only thing I know about it.
THE COURT: Did you say they said they knew it

when you talked with them or what?
THE WITNESS: The person that called said he

knew the Veney brothers personally, I believe, and they are

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In that house.
THE COURT: When you called DePaola, what did

he say?
THE WITNESS: He said, "We've already received

Information on that address, the same Information."
BY MR. NABR1T:

Q Now, where were you, Detective Shearer?
A In the Homicide Office.
Q In Homicide?
A Yes, that's right.
Q And did I understand you correctly that when

you asked the man who he was he hung up?
A Yes, he wouldn't tell me who he was.
Q During your work did you receive other calls

like this with respect to the location of the Veneys?
A No, not that 1 recall.

MR. NABRIT: No further questions.
MR. MURPHY: Thank you, very much.
MR. NABRIT: Thank you.
MR. MURPHY: You're excused.

(Witness excused.)

MR. SAUSE: If Your Honor please, Detective
Bosak is in the Criminal Court, Part 4. 1 wonder if YourV
Honor is ready to take your recess, or we can goNpn with

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anothiSr..witness. We can take a recess for Hr. Bosak. He
should be here momentarily.

THE COURT: Off the record a minute.
(Discussion off the record.)
THE COURT: Well, we s4.ght ** well take our

break at this time if you think he will behere in a few
minutes so that we can proceed in order.

(Thereupon, there was a recess taken, after whict
the following occurred:)

MR. MURPHY: Your Honor, we have the arrest
register here, and we can put it in evidence, 1 believe, by
stipulation.

THE COURT: You can put them in evidence and we
can photograph them, and you can have the original records
back.

MR. MURPHY: These are copies, 1 believe.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. NABRIT: Your Honor, 1 have no objection to

these. I'm just looking at them to become familiar with them
They may be introduced by agreement.
THE COURT: All right. Make them joint

exhibits then.

797

THE CLERK: Joint Exhibits 3 and 4.
(Arrest records were marked Joint
Exhibits No. 3 and 4.)

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Thereupon

DETECTIVE RICHARD F„ BOSAK
was called as a witness £or and on behal£ of the defendant
and, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified

as follows:
THE CLERK: State your full name.
THE WITNESS: Detective Richard F. Bosak,

Homicide Squad.
DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. SAUSE:
Q Detective Bosak, how long have you been a membe

of the police force?
A Thirteen years, sir.
Q And you're now assigned to the Homicide Squad;

is that correct?
A Yes, as of December 6, '62.
Q And you work with Lieutenant Cadden from time

to time; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you assist Lieutenant Cadden in his

activities with regard to the Veney warrants?
A Yes, sir.
q Now, directing your attention to 2204 Rosedale

Avenue, did you have any connection with that case?
A Yes, sir, I did.

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Q Now, before we get into the actual inspection
of the premises, did you receive any information with regard
to those premises?

A No, sir, I did not.
Q Well, did you receive any information from any

informants?
A I didn't personally, no. The person that I

worked with did.
Q And they received some information?
A Yes, a phone call.
Q And what was the nature of that information?
A There were four phone calls received in

reference to that address, sir.
Q Four phone calls?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were there any phone calls, any of those phone

calls from anyone who identified themselves?
A Yes, sir, not at the present, no, sir. One

phone call was received which was given to us from the shift
we relieved, and there were other phone calls received into
the district and into the Northeast District, it was a phone
call received.

Q Well, now, were any of those phone calls
received from any known informants?

Not to my knowledge, no. Later on it was

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determined that a name was given to us.

Q l don't understand what you mean by that.
A Well, there was a phone call received from the

Baltimore News Post as to that address.
Q Yes.
A And the name at that time was not given to us.
Q 1 see.

THE COURT: Was the name given to the Post, you
mean?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q Acting upon this information, what did you do?
A We proceeded and put the place under observatioi

and then later on in the evening we went and, went to the
premises and entered.

Q When was the place put under observation?
A Well, I was, at the time, if I might clarify it

sir, early in the day I was sent on another location to take
a statement from a person involved in this, and when DePaola
and I returned we were Instructed to go to another location
and meet the units.

The building, the location had been under
observation up until that time, and it was then we joined the
unit and went to 2204 Rosedale Street.

Q Well, when was it put under observation?

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A I imagine— I don't know, sir.
Early in the day the phone calls were received

early while we were at this location investigating another
person.

Q Well, now, at what time of day did you arrive
at the scene at Rosedale Street?

A At Rosedale Street, sir?

Q Yes.
A Approximately nine, nine p.m.

Q What did you do after you arrived?
A Along with other officers went to the front

porch.

Q All right. Now, tell His Honor— and this was
January 4th, was it?

A Yes, sir.
Q All right. Tell His Honor just exactly what

happened?
A We proceeded on to the porch. 1 don't know whc

it was. Somebody rang the doorbell, and no one answered,
although we heard something on the inside.

We waited, and the doorbell and the window was
knocked on by myself, and the window is level with the porch.

Q This is the front door?
A Yes, the front door, knocking on the door, and

the window, and again we heard something on the inside.

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We waited again. 1 observed that the window In
the front was unlocked and practically open at the bottom
maybe a quarter-of-an-inch or so, maybe better than that.

1 raised the window and hollered in, "Police,
open the door."

No one answered; but again we heard something on
the inside.

1 entered the building along with another office
and opened the front door and admitted the officers on the
porch, turned the lights on, and 1 along with another officer
went to the second floor and searched.

However, there was a light on on the second
floor front bedroom. The search was negative, and we left
the building.

Q Well, now, you say a light was on on the second
floor. Did you notice the light on?

A Yes.
Q Before you went in?
A When we approached the premises you could see

the light on on the second floor, and it was a pink light or
a red light.

Q Did you at any time ascertain who or what it wai
that was making the noise that you heard in the house when yoi
were trying to get in?

A Later on we found out that there was a dog in

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cellar, that It was apparently making the noise.
Q Detective Bosak, did you ever go in the kitchen

o£ this house?
A No, 1 didn't ay self.
Q Did you ever go into the rear door of that housi
A No, sir, I did not.
Q Did you ever break any window in the rear door?
A No, sir.

THE COURT: How did you get in?
THE WITNESS: The front window on to the porch

and the front entrance was unlocked. You could see it from
the window and if you're standing, you can see right on in,
I observed that it was unlocked.

We raised the window and hollered in, and I
guess that was the noise that we heard on the inside.

THE COURT: You hollered in, but how did you
get in?

THE WITNESS: I went in through the window.
It' 8 a step maybe of six or eight inches off the porch.
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q The window opens on to the porch?
A Yes, sir. It's a sill maybe six or eight

inches.
Q Of your own knowledge, do you know whether any

police officers came in through the back door?

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A I have no knowledge of that, sir.
Q Well, who else went into the house other than

you?
A Sergeant Brathuhn, Sergeant Hartman, Detective

DePaola, an emergency unit, 1 don't know the names of the
officers.

Q Now, what did you do when you left the premises?
A 1 left the premises and make sure that the doors

were secure, I then went next door, which is 2 2 0 2, and spoke
to the people at that house.

I identified myself. 1 had a badge on my coat,
and told them the purpose we were there and asked them was
there any information necessary, how we did obtain the man's
name that lived at that premises, and instructed them that if
Mr. Floyd wanted any additional information that he could call
the station house and we would give him all the information
he was seeking.

v Did you leave your name or just your—
A I don't recall whether 1 did or not, sir. I

did identify myself to the woman, and there was a man there
also.

Q
A

Q
you heard?

Well, you had your badge on too?
Yes, sir. I had my badge on on my left lapel.
Exactly what was the nature of this noise that
Can you describe it for His Honor?

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A It sounded like someone moving on the Inside
because that's why we demanded--when I opened the window I
demanded entrance, and It sounded like someone moving about.

MR. SAUSE: Your witness.
CROSS-EXAMINATION

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BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Did you see the dog, Sergeant?
A No, sir, I had never seen the dog; I haven't.
Q What did you do on the second floor?
A Went through the rooms up there, searched any

closet that would hide, open the door and looked Into It, and
we left the premises.

Q Had you heard any noises from upstairs?
A Not going up there, no, sir. The only noise we

heard was when we were about to enter the building and when we
knocked on the door we heard noises.

Q What kind of noises?
A Like someone moving about, someone moving on

the inside.
Q What time was the— do you know what time it was

the News American got the phone call?
A Four o'clock in the afternoon.
Q And you say the paper got a name, the name of

the caller, but you didn't learn until some later time, after
you had been to the house?

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A Yes, sir,that's correct.
THE COURT: Why not?
THE WITNESS: Sir?
THE COURT: Why not? Why didn't you?
THE WITNESS: The newspaper, through the rewarc

money and their ad in the paper, stated that it was strictly
confidential information, and the people when they gave this
information requested that their names not be given out.
BY MR. NABRIT:

Q Well, was that Information from the, that the
newspaper got, chat somebody was going in there who looked
like the Veneys?

A That' 8 correct.
Q That someone entered the building that fit the

description of the Veneys?
A That's correct, that someone entering and exit

ing the building had fit the description of the Veneys, one
of the Veney brothers.

Q Now, the house had been under observation prior
to—

THE COURT: Just a minute. Would you read
that answer back about fitting the description?

(The last answer was read by the Reporter.)

ISO

THE COURT: Well, that is supposed to be what?

What is that?

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Read the question before. What was the questio
(The last question was read by the Reporter.)
THE COURT: Well, he said the man fit the

description.
THE WITNESS: I believe your question was that

the Information given to the newspapers—
BY MR. NABRIT:

Q X wish you would make that clear. Would you
state that again?

A I believe your question was that the Information
what was that, and that information was given to the newspaper
as to a man entering fit the description of the Veney brothers
was entering that building.

Q Now, prior to that--
THE COURT: That's right. That's a little

different from the message that was given to Detective Shearei
which might make a difference with respect to whether it was
the same person or a different person who was given the
message. The other one was that he knew him personally, and

A Q 1this was one that fit the description.
BYMR. NABRIT:

Q Now, this house, you say, was under observation
for some time but you don't know how long before you got there

A Because I was at a State Hospital taking a
statement from another person involved in this case.

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Q You arrived at Rosedale about what time?
A I arrived on the scene of this search at about

eight*thirty or a quarter-after-eight.

Q Did you arrive with the emergency van?
A Sir?

Q With the emergency van?
A 1 met them; we met them at the location.

THE COURT: Were you in charge of this?
THE WITNESS: No, sir, 1 was not.

BY MR. NABRIT:

Q Who was the officer in charge?
A That' 8 Sergeant Hartman, Sergeant Hughes, and

Sergeant Brathuhn.
Q Now, you went to the second floor. Who searcl

on the first floor? Do you know?
A I guess the remaining officers, sir; 1 went on

the second floor after I admitted the other officers on the
front.

Q How many officers did you see in the house?
A Sergeant Brathuhn, and Sergeant, Detective DePao

Sergeant Hartman, that's who I let in the front door, sir.
Then 1 went upstairs and searched upstairs, came down and
instructed everything was all clear, and we left the building

Q On your direct examination I think you said that
there were two men there?

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A Yes, two men, they were the emergency squad
there.

Q They were inside the house?
A No, I didn't see them inside the house, sir; X

understand they were inside.
Q Now, how many emergency vans came? One or two?
A X can't truthfully answer that. X know there

was one there in the front; it was in the alleyway. Now,
whether there was another was in the rear, X don't know, sir.

Q When you went next door to 2202, who, or how
many of you went inside the house? How many officers?

A Sergeant Brathuhn and myself, as X recall. I'd
say only two there.

Q And where did you go in that house?
A Just to the front door and maybe a few feet on

the inside.
Q There were only two of you?
A Yes, yes, sir. Our purpose there was to obtain

the names of people next door.
Q And you had not known the names of the people

next door up to that point?
A No, sir, X didn't.
Q This was after you had left their house?
A That's right.
Q Were you wearing protective armor?

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A
large coat.

Q
A

1 had a bulletproof vest on underneath of a
The badge was on the outside of the coat.
And what weapons did you have?
I think I had the submachine gun, sir.

Q And Sergeant Brathuhn?
A Machine gun.
Q And did you carry those weapons anywhere in 2202
A 1 believe we have the large, we have a large

magazine there, some fifteen or twenty bullets, and that was
taken out and unloaded. I remember that I took it out and
put it in my pocket.

THE COURT: He's talking now about when he
entered?

MR. NABRIT: The home next door, 2202, next do<
THE COURT: Well, he rang the doorbell and

asked her a question.
MR. NABRIT: If the Court please, the witness'

testimony according to my note, was what I referred to.
THE COURT: Well, he came there and asked her

and she had been watching the whole show from the window, and
then they rang the doorbell and asked her who lived next door
There wasn't any entry or any search in her house.

MR. NABRIT: If Your Honor please, there was n
search; there was an entry.

THE COURT: Well, he rang the doorbell, and

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answered the questions. If police can't ring doorbells and
ask questions, I just don't understand the extent to which

\
you want to limit the police.

Don't you want them to make any investigation
of crimes?

MR. NABRIT: If the Court please, I would like
to state my recollection of the testimony according to my
notes, that the witness testified, went downstairs, on ray way
down, there was a loud knocking, open the door, and said,
"What's going on?"

They just walked in, and in bulletproof vests
and didn't have a hat on. Her testimony was that they just

marched into this house.
THE COURT: She opened the door and asked them,

"What's going on?" And she asked them a question and they
walked in and stood right there with her in the entrance hall
and asked her the names of the people next door.

I can't imagine that there was anything wrong
with that. They didn't try to search the house. They were
perfectly polite with her.

I don't think you help your case by being so
extreme.

MR. NABRIT: May it please the Court, we take
a different view. \

THE COURT: All right

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\BY MR. NABRIT:\
Q How, Sergeant, were you at 2416 Eutaw?
A No, sir, I was not.
Q Do you know of any other tips from the News

American newspaper that resulted In raids?
A Yes, sir, Z do.
Q How many?
A The only one that I was on, sir, that was out of

the City.
Q Was that an anonymous tip at the time, I mean,

as far as you knew?
A As far as I know, it was, yes, we followed it

through and It was relative to the people we were seeking.
Q It was relative to--
A Yes.
Q You said you were just on one. Did you know of

others?
A No, sir, not

supervising it.
MR. NABRIT:
MR. MURPHY:
THE CLERK:
MR. MURPHY:

to my knowledge. I was in the fie

No further questions.
No further questions. Thank you.

May he be excused?
Yes.

(Witness excused.)

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\ MR. MURPHY: Sergeant Brethuhn.V ‘ \V

Thereupon
SERGEANT ROBERT E. BRATHUHN

was called as a witness for and on behalf of the defendant and
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:

THE CLERK: State your full name.
THE WITNESS: Robert E. Brathuhn, Emergency

Vehicle Unit, Baltimore City Police Department.
DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. MURPHY:
Q Sergeant, how long have you been with the

Baltimore City Police Department?
A Seventeen years.

Q And how long have you been a sergeant?
A Since 1959.

Q What is your present assignment?
A I'm supervisor in charge of the Emergency Vehicl

Unit.

Q How many vehicles make up the Emergency Vehicle
Unit?

A We have two patrol the streets twenty-four hours,
and we have two stand-by units.

Q Are the two that patrol the streets twenty-four
hours a day, are they known as CP-11 and -12?

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A Yes, sir, they are.
9 Would you describe those vehicles In relation

to the other two vehicles?
A They're a larger vehicle that can carry more

equipment for our purpose that we need such as assisting the
public and things that happen and also assisting police dis
tricts and detectives and whatever use that we can help anyone
out on an emergency.

Q Let me ask you, sir, first when this emergency
was formed?

A It was formed on June 17, 1963 under General
Order 1787.

Q Is this a copy of General Order 1787?
A Yes, sir, It Is.

MR. MURPHY: I would like to Introduce this In
evidence. It states rather clearly the background and
purpose of this emergency unit. It's not the best copy, and
we can get a clearer copy, out I think It will suffice for th<i
purpose now.

THE COURT: It can be photographed and
distributed.

Have you read the whole thing?
MR. NABRIT: Yes, I have read It and I have no

objection.
Just double check the date.

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\ THE CLERK: Defendant's Exhibit 4.
(Document was marked Defendant's

\ Exhibit No. 4.)
BY MR. MURPHY:

Q Does your unit come under the imnediate aupervie
of the Traffic Division?

A Yes, we come under Inspector Keyes' jurisdictior
Q Now, would you describe for His Honor what

equipment CP-11 and -12 carry fully?
A Well, we carry all types of equipment for

emergency work. We have what you might call a small scale
arsenal. We carry shotguns. We carry ten shotguns, two
machine guns. We have one federal gas gun. We have--

THE COURT: You mean in each vehicle?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
We have this equipment suitable for four vehicl^

Your Honor, but we only use two on twenty-four hour tour.
We also have resuscitators; we have bellows

type. We have the airway tube type; we have oxygen we carry
We have the regular oxygen mask with the spear.

We carry an orthopedic stretcher. We carry
all types of tear gas. In general we have everything, and
from time to time we add what we think is necessary to assist
the public, like with automobiles at the present time we have
a request in for Sawzall.

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THE COURT: Sawzall that cuts the metal, or
\\something.

THE WITNESS: Yes.\
THE COURT: To cut a person out of a door.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
This we found that the Fire Department does have

but a lot of times our men are on the scene first, and we find
this very much in need.

And we have hip boots, and we carry anything in
general that would help to assist anyone.
BY MR. MURPHY:

Q Now, do I understand that these vehicles have
been on the streets since June of '63?

A Yes, sir.
Q They just weren't put in use in December '64

then?
A Pardon?
Q Strike that question.

MR. MURPHY: It happens to everybody.
THE COURT: We can provide straight chairs if

you prefer.
(Laughter.)
THE COURT: If they are inconvenient, as I say,

we'll be glad to put straight chairs, if you would rather hav«

til6

than?

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HR. NABRIT: Mo, thank you.
THE COURT: The pivoting ones are better but th

don't always stand up.
BY MR. MURPHY:

Q \ Now, in December of 1964 were CP-11 and -12
\under any orders to assist in an investigation of the Veney

brothers?
A Yes, sir. On the 25th of December under Telety

LO 3544 was placed by Inspector German that any turn-ups or
any searches would not be conducted without the, one of the
Emergency Vehicle Units being present at the time.

q Was this to be in addition to your regular
duties?

A Yes, sir.
Q During the course of the investigation--

THE COURT: Just a minute. You say patrolling
streets. That's not quite clear to me.

Do you roll around the City all the time or do y
have a certain station where you are?

THE WITNESS: Well, Your Honor, our two units
are divided into districts. We patrol, one unit petrols
what we have to call Channel 1, and one unit patrols on
Channel 2 which we have in the Police Department.

THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: But they are in motion at all

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times, for twenty-four hour periods.

THE COURT: But you are always available for
call anywhere?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
\ THE COURT: Well, I'm not quite sure just what

you mean or just what the nature of your regular patrol is.
THE WITNESS: Well, our regular patrol, Your

Honor, we still ride the streets, and through Communications
they can reach us. As an example, a woman drove a car into
Montebello Lake.

THE COURT: Well, I can understand how you
might be wanted for a great variety of things; but I am not
quite clear what your routine patrol duties are or why you
are not kept in the center of your district or something like
that?

TOE WITNESS: Well, we patrol the same as the
districts would patrol. We take calls the same as they wouli
take calls.

THE COURT: Well, 1 just didn't know what your
routine patrol duties were.

THE WITNESS: Well, we get a call like, for
example, like a lockout, a person is locked out of the house.
We have a ladder, a twenty foot ladder available that we can
use for that purpose.

THE COURT: Then they have to call you by

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radio.

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
\ THE COURT: Well, do you have any other duties

except these emergency duties?
THE WITNESS: Well, our primary duty is in

patrolling the streets the same as the radio cars and the
traffic cruisers.

THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MURPHY:

Q Do you answer any calls that are not directed
to CP-11 and -12?

A On many occasions we will back up, if we're in
the area. A lot of times if our men hear a call such as a
serious accident or something, they will proceed to that
location, and usually before they get there they will be
called to assist.

But on many occasions we have backed up the
districts.

THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: — without receiving a call if

we're in the area.
BY MR. MURPHY: \

Q Then some of your duties are the same as if you
were in a regular radio car; is that true? \

A That's correct. All of our personnel are made

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up from district personnel.

Q Can you describe what your personnel structure
is in the emergency unit?

\
\ A We have one lieutenant, a sergeant, and eighteexi
\\patrolmen.
Q You said that you have an arsenal on the CP-11

and CP-12. \ Prior to the investigation of the Veney brothers
incident have you ever had occasion to utilize this arsenal?

A Oh, yes.
q Would you describe the situation where you did

have occasion to use it?
A Well, some time ago we had, we had two subjects

were wanted for assault by cutting, and in fresh pursuit they
barricaded themself in a home on Twenty-third and Half Street;
and we used every reasonable means to have these people
surrender themselves.

In fact, at this particular time Inspector Keyes
was the senior officer on the scene, and when we did every
thing humanly possible to have these people surrender we had
to end up by going to tear gas. We shot two projectiles
into this building, into this home, at which time both sub
jects, both persons, came out with their hands up.

In the process of using tear gas we still have
to be ready for whatever might transpire from this. We have
tear gas masks that our men use, and also they are equipped

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with their bulletproof vests and shotguns and machine guns,
whichever they would deem necessary.

THE COURT: Do you wear your bulletproof vests
routinely on patrol?

THE WITNESS: We do, Your Honor, if the situa
tion calls for it, like a barricaded person or something like
this, we would, yes, sir.

THE COURT: Well, where the people are barricad
you put them on, but I mean all day riding around?

THE WITNESS: Oh, no, sir.
THE COURT: You don’t?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: Only when it calls for it?
THE WITNESS: Yes, we have four on each truck.

We have what we call two lightweight vests and two heavyweight:
vests.

They will stop anything up to a .44 magazine.
BY MR. MURPHY:

Q From the date of December 25th, when your unit
was first assigned to the Veney brothers investigation to date
have you ever had occasion to discharge any weapon in the
arsenal of the emergency unit?

A No, we didn't; we had no occasion to discharge
any weapon except for the tear gas in a buildingvoff of
Ordnance Road one evening, and this particular evening

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822
lieutenant Glover and Lieutenant Cadden and Captain Mahrer
were present.

They were In charge o£ the investigation, and
we had the subject come forth, the person come forth that
offered information that one of the Veney brothers was seen in
this location off Ordnance Road.

Q What kind of building was this?
A This was an old shack; the windows were broke

out of it. The doors had one exit, one door that you couldn'
open; it was open partially. It couldn't move any further.
I mean it couldn't go closed or open.

We did, we did use tear gas in this building,
and after we used tear gas we went— 1 went in with a gas mask
on, and you could see definitely that there had been activity
there as far as someone living there or staying there.

There was furniture there. There was a bed
type structure, but there was no one there when we arrived.

Q I understand that that's the only instance when
weapons were discharged during the course of this investiga
tion?

A That's the only one, to my knowledge. Had
there been any weapons fired I certainly would have known of
it.

Q Where is Ordnance Road?
A Ordnance Road is down in Arundel County. At

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this particular time we had the Arundel County Police with ua
before we went down to this building.

But it was an old shack up on a dump, and on the
information that we had that they was seen down in that loca
tion—

MR. MURPHY: Your Honor, I would proceed now wi
the Sergeant on another subject, if this describes fully the
background of CP-11 and CP-12 to the Court?

THE COURT: Well, had it been used— you speak
of its having been used in connection with its being assigned
with the arrest, with an arrest of these two men where you are
in hot pursuit from an assault and cutting charge.

Had it been used in any other arrests?
THE WITNESS: You mean for—
THE COURT: Had the Emergency Vehicle—
THE WITNESS: (Hi, yes, sir.
THE COURT: --and the people with the guns beer,

used in connection with any previous arrest?
THE WITNESS: Well, the most recent that we hac,

was on Fulton Avenue where the owner of the properties there
with a shotgun refused to allow the Gas & Electric Company to
put wires up on a house next door which he himself tore down,
and through the investigation on it— of course, Your Honor,
we don't, just because we run into a situation like this, we
don't just pull this equipment out. We want to make sure

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that we know who is handling this equipment and It's properly
used. \

THE COURT: I understand that the men are
trained.

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: But what I am asking Is, had It

been used on any previous occasion? Did you arrest this man
with the shotgun?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. He had a shotgun and
kept us away. In fact, he, this person would not allow the
Gas & Electric Company to put the wires up, and they were
Instructed to go get a warrant, at which time our unit was
called to go there and apprehend him.

But here again we had to use tear gas in this
particular case.

THE COURT: And you used tear gas there.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Now, had the unit been used for

arrest purposes on one or two occasions before this? You
mentioned two? Were there ten or a hundred?

THE WITNESS: Oh, gosh, Your Honor, I wouldn't
be able to say. I have records to show that on every arrest
that our men have made or participated In, and we have an
average— maybe I can clear it up this way— we have an average
of seventy runs a month that our men participate in, and I

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Would say we averaged nine to ten arrests per month.V
\ Mow, this would be a man with a gun on the

street. Recently we had one of our officers arrest a man on
a gun, on the street with a gun. Last week we had a place
was burglarized, and our men arrested the defendant or the
persons wanted for it.

THE COURT: And so you say you have been
averaging about nine or ten arrests a month.

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, our particular unit.
THE COURT: Your particular unit. Now, when

you say seventy runs a month, do you mean that they are runs
in connection with possible arrests or runs in connection wit!
any kind of rescue operations or something like that?

THE WITNESS: Well, emergency operation or
assistance, assisting our districts, like we've had a lot of
calls searching for evidence on rooftops, on buildings, and
in sewers.

This is one of our— we're trying to purchase
an oxygen demand unit right now so that we will be allowed to
go down in sewers and search for evidence because it's very
dangerous with the gases.

THE COURT: Yes. \\
BY MR. MURPHY: \V

Q Did your unit participate in any way in the
recent Holmes murder case?

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A I'm not too familiar with it. They had too
much to do with that. I think mostly it was with the FBI
that they worked with, and they used the equipment from the
FBI.

Q This is the A&P manager that I am referring to?
A Oh, I was thinking of, I was thinking of, I was

thinking about one of the other cases is what I was thinking
of.

Yes, our unit was used. I wasn't present on
any of the turn-ups, but I know our unit was used. We have
records to that effect, and the houses being searched in
connection with this, yes.

Q At any place that your emergency vehicles go,
are there records made?

A Yes, by all means.
Q Now, Sergeant, directing your attention to

January 4th at 2204 Rosedale Street, did your unit have
occasion to go to that address?

A Yes, we did.
Q And would you describe the circumstances under

which you and the unit went there?
THE COURT: Which one?
HR. SAUSE: Rosedale Street.
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: 2204 Rosedale.

827

Yes, we received several calls on this location.
In fact Sergeant Hartman and myself with two uniformed men
and one unit, Unit 11, one emergency truck was out on the
street at the time that we received the last call.

Now, prior to this we received one call from the
day shift that we relieved. We also received another call
from the Northeast District by telephone. We received a call
from the Baltimore News Post had information on this, and the
last, the other call came from Detective Shearer from Homicide
that he received a call there, and he relayed it to the
Northeast District.

All told we had four calls, and this particular
night I was on, on this particular search, and when we
approached this house there was a light on in the upstairs
second floor front.

One of the emergency units took the rear with
the uniformed officers from the Northeast District with
Sergeant Hartman, and Detective Bosak, Detective De Carlo,
Sergeant Hartman and myself were at the front, and Detective
Bosak opened up the front window.

I went in.
Q Why did Detective Bosak— you begin at the front

door, Sergeant. You approached the front door?
A Yes.
Q Then what did you do?

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A Well, we rapped on the door. We got a no
response. We heard noise inside of the house.

Q What kind of noise did you hear inside the
house?

A Noise of someone moving about in the house.
At this time after rapping we heard a noise,

Detective Bosak opened the window up, and there was a Venetian
blind all the way down in front of the window.

You couldn't see through to see if anybody was
in. We had large searchlights, and hearing this noise we
hollered out, "Police."

We had no response. So Detective Bosak and
myself both went through the window, and we opened, unlocked
the front door for the other people to come in.

Q And what did you personally do, Sergeant?
A I went towards where I heard this noise which at

the time it was, it was a noise like some, like somebody
moving, and opened the cellar doors, and a big shepherd dog
come up out of there and was frightened, and he charged out
of the basement.

At the time I don't know where he went or which
way he went. At this time I went down to the basement and
searched the basement.

Q When you say he charged out of the basement,
was the dog excited? Is that what you mean?

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A It was so sudden, yes, sir. When I heard the

noise it wasn't like a noise of someone scratching on the doo:
It was a noise like somebody moving around, and when I opened
the door this big shepherd dog just jumped right out.

I searched the basement and I come up out of
the basement, and the rest, the rest of the men that were in
the house, they all agreed that there was no one present in
the house, and at this time we left the premises, locked the
door and put the window down.

Q Did you notice whether there was any window
broken in the kitchen?

A No, sir, I didn't.
Q Did any of the officers come in the back way?
A Not to my knowledge, no, sir.
Q When you left the premises, Sergeant, what did

you then do?
A Well, I went with Detective Bosak to the house

next door, and we rung the bell, and the people, a lady and
man both standing at the--came to the door, and we Identified
ourselves as being police and asked them if they'd mind
giving us some information as to who lived at the house next
door.

So the lady that answered the door invited us
inside the doorway there, and she told us who the owners were.

We told her that they could get--the owners

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could get In touch with the Northeast District, that that's
where we were from.

Q Sergeant, when you left 2204 Rosedale, did you
secure the house in any fashion?

A Yes, we did. The front window was put down.
We did turn some lights on; the lights were turned off, and
we locked the front door when we left.

Now, there was a light on upstairs in the front
room, and it was still on when we left. We did not turn that
off.

THE COURT: Was it a regular light or a night
light of some sort?

THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I don't know if it
was. It was not a white light. I don't know whether it
was an orange or pink light but it was an off-color light.
It was not a white light.

THE COURT: But it was a regular full powered
light? v

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, it was a room light.
MR. MURPHY: No further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NABRIT:

Q While you were there did you hear any glass
breaking or sound of glass breaking?

A No, sir, I did not.

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Q How long were you in the house?
A I'd say approximately two to three minutes.
Q Was an emergency vehicle in the rear?
A The emergency vehicle was pulled in the alley

alongside of 2200. It wasn't room enough for the emergency
vehicle to get back through there. The alley was not wide
enough.

Q Had men been dispatched to go back there?
A One of the emergency men was in back and one

was inside the house with two district men in back.
The back was covered, yes, sir.

Q Where was the dog went you left?
A Sir?
Q Where was the dog when you left?
A The dog was in the kitchen. When you come up

in this, the basement you come up the steps in the basement
and you walk straight takes you right into the kitchen, and
there was like a swinging door, if I remember correctly. I
think it moved from either side.

Q How did you lock*-did you testify, Sergeant,
you locked the front door when you left?

A We locked the front door and shut the window.
We had the window open. It's a large window off the porch,
and you have to step about eighteen inches or two feet over a
sill to get in. That's the way we gained entrance, yes.

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Q What, did you lock it with a key?
A No, it was a regular Yale lock on the door.
Q How did you lock it?
A We just locked it by pulling it shut, and it

locked.
Q It locked. You mean you pulled the door to?
A Well, you have to have a key to open it from

one side, but the other side has a knob that you can turn.
Q What you are telling me is that you assumed it

automatically locked when you shut it?
A Well, I know that when we left the house the

house was locked because I checked it myself the door, to see
if it was locked, and we put the window down, the same way
the window was before.

Q You don’t know how it locked, how it was locked?
A Yes, sir, I do know how it was locked. It was

locked--I don’t know the make of the lock, but you turn it,
it had a knob that you could turn it from the inside.

Q What, someone locked it from the inside?
A Someone could lock it from the inside.

THE COURT: He didn't say somebody did; he said
somebody could, but that from the outside you have to have a
key if it was locked, as I understand it.
BY MR. NABRIT:

Q Did you or any of your men have a key and used

the key in that lock?
A Pardon?
Q Did you or any of your men use a key in that

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lock?
A No, sir.

THE COURT: He didn't say he had to have a key
to lock it. He said it was a Yale lock. He describes it
as a different kind of lock from the one that your witness
testified about.

Your witness said you had to have a key to lock
it, as 1 remember it, and that it was unlocked or open, I
think he said. I don't know whether he said unlocked or open,
out at any rate I gather from the man who owned the house
when he came there this inside front door, the front door was
open, but 1 understood him to say open, but certainly it was
unlocked.

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This witness says that it had a catch lock so
that when you pulled the door to you can't get in from the
outside without a key. That's all I understand him to say.

MR. NABRIT: I asked him that question but I
didn't understand that answer.

THE COURT: Oh, that's what I understood him
to say.

THE WITNESS: When 1, when I left the premises,
I shook the door, and the door was locked from the outside,24

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and we were outside. You could not get in if you didn't
have a key, you couldn't get in the premises.

THE COURT: That is what I understood him to
say the first time, and that is why I was wondering why you
were going further about this question of the bolt from the
inside and so forth.

MR. NABRIT: Well, if Your Honor please, if
it's the only way you can lock the door from the outside with
a key.

THE COURT: That's not what he said. He said
you pull the door to and it catches. That's the same kind
of lock that I have on my front door, if you walk out and
close the door you can't get in without a key; but on the
inside you can.

MR. NABRIT: With all due respect, Your Honor,
may I ask the witness--
BY MR. NABRIT:

Q Didn't you tell me before that in order to lock
it from the inside you had to turn the knob?

A No, sir. What I'm trying to say is--
Q You didn't say that?
A No, sir, would you--I said that you got to have

a key to unlock it to get back in. You turn the knob, you
can unlock it and go out.

Q How many men do you have on this, the emergency

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vehicle you ride around in?
A We had two men, two men on each shift on each

truck. The trucks must be manned by two men.
Q And when you would make these raids on the Vene>

in this case, how many men would ride, would man the truck?
A We never made any particular raids.
Q Well, I didn't mean to use any invidious terms,

When you would make, when you would accompany the officers
making, going to the houses looking for the Veneys, how many
would you have?

A We had two of our men on each truck.
Q Two of your men on each truck?
A Two of Che men on the truck, and I rode on the

truck sometimes, and sometimes I rode in a car.
Q Would the truck transport other men?
A We could if we had to, but it's not designed

for that. It only has two seats for them.
Q How many of these searches of houses for the

Veneys did you personally go on?
A Oh, gosh, I'd have to check the records.
Q A general estimate?
A I don't know. I was on an awful lot. In

fact I more or less supervised the equipment that was used.
In other words we were, we were very careful that we knew
that the men that used these guns knew what they were doing

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with them. We don't--and I think we were, as far as the--if
a man came up, 1 refused a lot of men equipment because I
\ v
didn't feel in my mind that they were able, they didn't have
the experience to use than.

Q Well, you told me that you were on an awful lot
of them; is that right?

A Yes.
Q Over two hundred would you say?
A No, 1 wouldn't say I was over two hundred, no,

sir. I'd say I was on an average of maybe sixty or seventy
of then.

Q Were you present at one where officers gained
entrance to a house by a ladder up to a second-story window?

A Where was this location?
Q Sort of a, one of the relatives of the Veneys?
A I don't recall that, no, sir.
Q Were you present at any where you used your

equipment to gain entrance to a home that they were unoccupied?
A We used our equipment?
Q Such as ladders or battering-rams or sanething

like that?
MR. MURPHY: I don't think there's any evidencjs

of battering-rams.
THE COURT: Battering-rams?
MR. MURPHY: Well, excuse me, Your Honor.

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THE WITNESS: We searched the rooftops with
ladders. We had one particular one on Gorsuch Avenue where
the Fire Department used the hook and ladder and searched the
rooftops, and we had information someone was up there, but
outside of that 1 don't recall any.

MR. NABRIT: That's all 1 have.
THE COURT: I'm interested about the dog, when

he came out of the cellar, was he friendly or angry or excitec
or what?

THE WITNESS: Well, he was excited, Judge.
THE COURT: Did he make any effort to attack

anybody?
THE WITNESS: No, sir, he didn't.
THE COURT: But he was just excited?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MURPHY:

Q Where did you put the dog, Sergeant, during the
course of your search?

A The dog went right to the, right to the kitchen
and like I said there was a door, and I'm almost positive, I
don't want to say for sure, but I think the door swung both
ways, and that was the last that I saw of the dog.

Q Well, while the dog was in the kitchen did you
hear any glass breaking?

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\A No, sir, I heard no glass breaking.
q\
A

Did you look at the dog's paws before you left?
No, I didn't.
MR. MURPHY: No further questions.

RE CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NABRIT:

Q You didn't put the, you didn't lock the dog back
in the cellar oefore you left?

A No, sir, I did not.
MR. NABRIT: That's all.
MR. MURPHY: Thank you, very much, Sergeant.
He may be excused. Thank you, very much,

Sergeant.
(Witness excused.)

MR. MURPHY: We had another witness who was
not able to be here, but I think we probably covered it pretty
well, 1 think the Sergeant covered it in detail, but 1 think
in light of the testimony that we have had, I think we ought
to go on to another house.

Thereupon
Lieutenant Coll.

LIEUTENANT BERNARD WILLIAM COLL
was called as a witness for «nd on behalf of the defendant and,
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as

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follows:
THE CLERK: State your full name.
THE WITNESS: Lieutenant Bernard William Coll,

Baltimore City Folice Department, assigned to Southwest
District.

DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q Lieutenant, how long have you been a member of
the police force?

A Going on eighteen years, sir.
Q How long have you been a lieutenant?
A A little over two years.
Q Directing your attention to December 30th of las

year, did you have occasion to go to 2408 Huron Street?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, what was the reason for you going there,

Lieutenant?
A Your Honor, on December 30th around eight-twenty

p.m., 1 was notified by Mrs. Pollack Hammer who was a clerk at
Southwest District that she was in receipt of a telephone
message from the Northeastern District to the effect that the
Veney brothers were at 2408 Huron Street.

For verification I contacted the Northeastern
District and spoke to a Mrs. Greene who was the clerk at that
District.

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She informed me that at eight*ten p.m. on
December 30th she received an anonymous phone call from a man
who informed her that one of the Veney brothers was being
sheltered at 2408 Huron Street.

1 made several efforts to contact the special
unit who was heading this investigation, but I was notified
that they were unavailable due to the fact that they were
processing other information pertaining to this case.

I then instructed Sergeant Louis Brandt to
organize a search team, which he did, and we then proceeded
to 2408 Huron Street at approximately nine-twenty-five p.m.
that evening.

Q All right. Now, did you have the emergency
vehicle there?

A Yes, sir, one unit was there.
Q CP-11 or -12? -12?
A Yes, sir, -12.
Q All right. Now, tell His Honor, did you send

an advance car to Huron Street?
A No, sir.

MR. NABR1T: 1 couldn't hear the answer.
THE WITNESS: No, sir.

BY MR. SAUSE:
Q And Lieutenant Cadden's group, special unit,

was not involved in this?
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A Ho, sir.
Q So this was conducted by the District rather

than by the—
A Special units.
Q Special units?
A Yes.
Q How, tell His Honor what you saw when you

arrived at the scene there on Huron Street?
A When we arrived at 2408 Huron Street I stationer

several officers around the premises. Sergeant Brandt and
two officers went to the side door of this location.

1 went to the front door accompanied by two
officers. There was a light on in the middle room on the
first floor. I knocked several times on the front door and
received no response. A second or two later the front door
was opened, at which time I was admitted to the premises.

THE COURT: By whom?
THE WITHESS: A police officer.
When I entered the home. Sergeant Brandt and

two other officers who were Inside.
I then inquired as to who occupied this home,

and the young lady by the name of Sharon Wallace said she
lived there with her parents.

I asked where her parents were at the present
time, and she told me they were both working. I then advised

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her o£ our reason and purpose for oeing at her home, and she
allowed us to search the premises.
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q Now, what police officer was it that admitted
you to the home? Do you remember?

A I can't recall the name, no, sir.
THE COURT: What was the question?
MR. MURPHY: What police officer admitted him

t ie.
f AUSE:

Q Now, how were you armed at the time that you
« 'L id the home?

A I was armed with my service revolver. Sergeant
Brandt, if 1 recall right, had a, was armed with a shotgun,
and Officer Little or Tittle of the emergency unit was armed ̂

a machine gun, I believe.
Q Now, with whom did you talk when you were there)?
A 1 talked with a lady who identified her name,

herself as being Sharon Wallace of 2408 Huron Street.
Q Can you estimate the age of that person that yojj

talked to?
A Well, I would say she was approximately eighteen

around that, eighteen.
Q Did you see anyone else in the premises?
A There were several young adults on the premises

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and one elderly one.

Q Did you have any discussion with the young

adults?
A The one, the only one I talked to at that time

was Sharon Wallace.
Q Well, at any time before you left did you talk

with any of the others?
A I talked with another young lady there. I don

know who she was, and when I, before I left the premises then
was 8 lady who was seated in the living room, and at that timE
I was notified by Mrs. Wallace, Miss Wallace rather, that this
lady was her mother. She owns a beauty parlor at Huron and

Hollins Ferry Road.
I asked her if she explained to her mother why

the police were in her home, and she said she did.
Later on I then had occasion to escort Mrs.

Wallace back to her beauty parlor at Huron and Hollins Ferry

Road.
Q So that after this was all over Mrs. Wallace

went back to her beauty parlor?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you saw Mrs. Wallace in her living room o

her home, was she concerned?
A She seemed to be, yes, sir. She was seated ia

a chair.

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MR. HABRIT: We can't hear you.
THE WITNESS: She was seated in a chair at the

844

door in her living room with Sharon and another girl seated at
the door with Mrs. Wallace.

THE COURT: Was there something more you wantec
MR. NABRIT: No, sir, nothing more.

/ \ jr \
THE COURT: I didn't know whether you didn't

understand it or whether there was something you hadn't heard.
MR. NABRIT: I thought the question was, did

she seem to be upset.
/ THE COURT:

/ MR. NABRIT:
THE COURT:

BY MR. SAUSE:
Q Lieutenant, would you describe for His Honor

what you personally did when you got into the home, everythin;?
that you did?

And he answered yes.
All right.
He answered yes that she did.

A I explained to Miss Wallace the purpose of our
presence, that we had received information that one of the
Veney brothers was being harbored in this home, and I asked
her if she would permit a search to be conducted, and she
said yes she would.

We made a search of the premises, Your Honor,
and in fact, Miss Wallace accompanied me to the basement of
that house for the reason that she said her dog was in the

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cellar.
The search lasted approximately three to four

minutes. The officers then left the home, and I went to the
front, and that's when I seen Mrs. Wallace seated in the chair
with her daughters around her.

Q Did you go to any other parts of the premises

845

except the basement?
A I went to the basement only, sir.
Q Did you go to any other parts of the first floox
A I was only on the first floor, the first entranc
Q Well, where were these, didn't you say young

adults, where were they?
A They were in the middle room where the light was

burning at the time 1 entered,
Q And did you at any time make any threats that

you would kill the dog in the basement?
A No, sir, no threats were made by anyone.
Q With regard to the dog and with regard to any

thing?
A

Q
A

With regard to anything.
Did you have any photographs with you, Lieutenant?
No, sir. \
Did you inquire from the occupants whether or

not they, other than this one girl that you talked to, whethe^
or not they knew the Veneys?

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A I asked this young lady whether she knew the
Veneys and she said no she had no knowledge o£ the Veneys
other than what she seen in the newspaper.

N^he only other person I conversed with that
particular evening was the older woman of the group, and I

.
asked her— she seemed to be upset when we entered the dwelling
and I asked her if she was aware of the fact that a police
officer was fatally and one was seriously wounded, and she
said that was none of her problems, that was ours.

That was the only conversation I had with anyone
except Mrs. Wallace, Miss Wallace rather.

MR. SAUSE: Your witness.
MR. NABRIT: May I have the Court's indulgence

for a moment, Your Honor? May it please the Court, may I ha\
a moment?

THE COURT: Yes, Indeed.
MR. NABRIT: I'm ready to proceed, Your Honor.

— ---- - CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Lieutenant Coll, is it?
A Coll, yes, sir, C-o-1-1.
Q Did I understand you to testify on direct

examination that you went to this house with your men on what
you were told was an anonymous phone call?

A Yes, sir.
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Q Old you have any other information about this
house prior to going there?

A No, sir.

Q Did I understand you to say, Sergeant, that you
went to the front door with two other men, and that an
Grant, is it?

A Sergeant Brandt, B-r-a-n-d-t, Sergeant.

Q Sergeant Brandt?
A Sergeant Brandt.

Q With the Sergeant and two men?
A Yes.

Q So that three at the front door and three at th<
side door? 501

A Yes.

Q Now, Officer, could you, was your recollection
of the layout of the front floor or the ground floor good
enough for you to describe to the Court what that looks like?

A No, sir, I can't recall the layout description.

Q Well, is it true that when you come in the fron
door, there*8 a, when you come in the front door, there's a,
you're into a living room area? x

A Yes, sir.

Q And right in front of you on your left, there's
directly in front of you, is the side door where that comes
right?

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A I just can't recall how It looked, the setup,
offhand.

There'8 a side entrance that Sergeant Brandt
entered through, and the front door which I came in. I don'«
know whether the side door leads--leads into the living room
area or not. I can't recall.

Q All right. Well, now, you went to the cellar,

did you, sir?
A I went to the basement, yes.

To the basement?
Yes.
And who else went with you?
Officer Tittle and Mrs.— Miss Wallace.
Mrs. Sharon Wallace?
Yes.
Mow, when you were in the basement, what did yci

Q
A
Q
A

Q
A

Q
do?

A
Q
A

freezer.

Q
A

We searched the area.
Did your search include opening a freezer?
Yes, I opened a freezer. It was an upright

Which had shelves in it?
I believe it did; I'm not sure. It was one o£

those large freezers where somebody could hide themselves.
Q Somebody could hide provided there were no

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shelves in there?

A Well, 1 didn't know whether there was any
in there until I opened the door.

A q

condition?
Was it a modern freezer that was in operating

A 1 think it was, sir; I'm not sure. I opened
the door and the light came on.

Q Was the dog down there actually or not?
A To tell you the truth, I didn't see any dog whei

I went downstairs in the basement, no, sir.
Q Well, when you entered the front door was there

an officer on the, or could you see the steps leading up to
the second floor right in front of you?

A
that home.

Well, like I said, I can't recall the layout of

Q
there?

Can you recall whether there was an officer

A
sir.

1 seen an officer inside when I entered, yes,

Q Can you recall whether any of them were on the
steps going up to the second floor when you entered?

A 1 can't recall whether they was on the steps or
whether they were here or there or where they were; 1 can't
recall.

Q
\Y

You testified you positioned your men outside;

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is that correct? ~

A We stationed several officers around the premiset
yea, sir.

—• *T' x Did you give those officers who were outside, t<̂
remain outside, instructions to keep people who came up out o
the house?

While the search was in progress?
Yes.
Yes.
That was their standing instructions, that anyon

who came along they would keep them away?
A Not to enter the home?

Yes.

Q
A

502

Q
A Yes, until the search was completed, yes, sir.
Q Do you have any knowledge that, a6 to whether

X.
Mrs. Elisabeth Wallace, the owner, arrived, when she arrived
or whether she was there when you got there?

A No, sir. Like I said before, when I came into
the living room there I seen several of the young adults
around and there was this woman seated in the chair there.

Q This is after you came from the basement?
A Well, I'm up out of the basement. I'm in the-

well, I guess that's in the living room.
Q Yes.
A When I came in the front there, the living rood

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Cheat's when I seen this lady seated in the chair surrounded
by several of these young ladies.

N.
1 inquired as to who this lady was, and she said

that was Mrs. Wallace. I asked one of these daughters--1
don't know which one it was— whether she explained to her
mother why we were there and they said they did.

Later on Mrs. Wallace was escorted back to her
beauty salon by a police officer.

Q And did that officer— do you know whether that
officer searched the beauty parlor?

A There was no search made of that parlor, no, si::.
He was instructed not to make any searches; the instructions
was to take Mrs. Wallace back.

In fact, she asked for the officer to go back
with her, and we obliged.

Q Now, then you said, you say that when you saw
this lady in the living room, that her daughters were around
her?

A I later learned, well, that Sharon, Mrs. Sharon
Wallace—

Q Miss Sharon?
A Miss Sharon Wallace, pardon, yes, Miss Sharon

Wallace, I later learned that one of the other young ladies
was one of her daughters.

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ladles were somewhat older than Sharon?
\

A\
\ Q
A

Which one Is that?
The other daughters?
They all looked the same age range to me.

First of all when I walked In, 1 didn't scrutinize them that
closely.

Q Now, you said that there was an older woman who
was upstairs and who told you that the police officer being
shot wasn't her problem?

A I didn't hear the question.
Q On direct examination 1 thought you said, 1

thought you testified that there was an older woman?
A 1 had a conversation with another lady there,

yea,

Q Now, when you say older woman, what do you meany
A She was older than the other people who were in

there.
Q Give us an estimate? 1 mean like fifty, sixty

years old or thirty years old?
A No, she's not that old. Maybe she's forty-fivjE

or fifty years old; I don't know. She was older than the
other people in the room at that time.

Q Now, you did— did you have a conversation with
one of the daughters outside?

A 1 conversed with the young lady outside. I

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can't: say whether she was one of the daughters or not. X
remember talking to a young lady on the outside of the home.

Q Did you tell her that you came there on an

anonymous tip?
A X advised--
Q Or telephone call?
A X advised Sharon of that when X first entered.
Q You advised Sharon? You advised the young la

outside too?
A I can't recall whether I said, advised her or

not.
Q And how about the lady you saw sitting on the

couch surrounded by the daughters?
THE COURT: What difference does it make? H«

admits that he came in on an anonymous tip, and he admits he
told them that he came in on an anonymous tip; so there is no
conflict in the testimony there.

I don't see any use in going over and over it.
MR. NABRIT: No further questions.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. SAUSE:
Q Lieutenant, you were in command of the—
A Search?
Q Yes.
A Yes, sir.

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MR. SAUSE: Thank you.
THE COURT: Was the officer on the beat there?
THE WITNESS: Well, in that particular area

that's a motorized post, yes, he was there, yes, a two man
car.

THE COURT: Well, did you discuss with him
whether he knew the people who lived there?

THE WITNESS: No, sir, I did not.
THE COURT: Anything else?
MR. SAUSE: No further questions.

RECilOSS’1* EXAMINATION
at nR. NABR1T:

Q Captain. I don't know whether you said this
before. Can you tell me the total number of men that were
there?

A What?
Q In your command, the total number of officers?
A Approximately fourteen officers.
Q And how many cars?
A Offhand 1 can't tell you.

MR. NABRIT: That’s aU.
FURTHER REDIRECT

BY MR. SAUSE:
Q How many were inside the house?
A There were six; myself, Sergeant Brandt, and

four officers.

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Q And Che rest of them were positioned outside?
A Outside of the premises, yes, sir.

Q This is a large house?
A Yes, it's not too large a house, but it sits by

itself, I believe with the grounds.
THE COURT: It's a detached house, you say?
THE WITNESS: I think it is.

BY MR. SAUSE:

Q And you indicated that this is a motorized polic
post?

A Yes.

Q And is that a large post?
A Yes, it covers a large area, Mount Wynans’ area.

Q Lieutenant, would you explain to His Honor why i
was that you felt that this information was sufficiently
reliable to act upon?

A Your Honor, due to the fact that this was the
first time that the Police Department had received information
to place the Veneys in this particular area, I felt it should

5 0 4
be investigated.

-- ■
MR. SAUSE: Thank you. That is all.

FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HABR1T:

Q Officer, this is not a very large house at all,
is it? Isn't it actually a relatively small premises in ter

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of the size of the rooms?
A As I recall it, I think it's a house that sits

by itself.
Yes.Q N \

A It has grass around it and so forth, as I recal
right, it*8 been quite a few days back since I've been there.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, very much, Lieutenant.V
MR. NABR1T: Thank you.
THE COURT: Are you on schedule?
MR. MURPHY: Excuse me?

Are you up to schedule?\
V

We're ahead of it, Your Honor.
You're ahead of it?
Yes, sir.

We'll take a recess until 2:15.

THE COURT:
MR. MURPHY:
THE COURT:
MR. MURPHY:
THE COURT:

(Witness excused.)

(Thereupon, at 1:05 o'clock p.m. a recess was
taken until 2:15 o'clock p.m.)

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(The Court reconvened at two o'clock p.rn.)
THE COURT: Call your witness.
MR. MURPHY: Yes, Sergeant Brandt.

Thereupon
SERGEANT LOUIS A. BRANDT

was called as a witness £or and on behalf of the defendant
and, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:

THE CLERK: State your full name.
THE WITNESS: Louis A. Brandt, Southwestern

District.
DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. SAUSE:
Q Sergeant Brandt, how long have you been a polic

Officer?
A Sixteen years, sir.
Q And how long have you been a sergeant?
A Approximately six years.
Q Sergeant, did you have occasion to participate

in the attempts, any of the attempts to serve the arrest, the
warrants for the arrest of the Veney brothers?

A I did, sir.
Q Now, directing your attention particularly to

2408 Huron Street, did you go to that address?

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A I did, sir.
Q Now, did you receive any calls or Informscion

about this or did you just go to the premises?
A 1 didn't receive any phone calls. On informa

tion received by Mrs. Greene at Northeast District, the
telephone operator, in company with Lieutenant Coll we went
there, yes, sir.

Q Now, tell His Honor what happened after you
arrived there and particularly what it was that you did at
that address?

A Upon our arrival at 2408 Huron Street, myself
in company with two other officers, went to the side door.
I knocked upon the door. It was a very short time the door
was opened by a young lady.

I asked who resided in the house. She said,

"I did.”
I told her that”we have information that one oi

the Veney brothers was supposed to be inside. Do you mind
if we look around?”

At that point she stepped back and said, "Oh,

yes. ”
THE COURT: She said—
THE WITNESS: Upon entering the house, the

knocking was coming from the front door, and I told the youn,
lady that was another police officer and said, "Do you mind,

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you better open the door for him."
At that time one of the other officers went to

the front, and he admitted Lieutenant Coll to the front, to
the front door.
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q
Sergeant?

Q
A

All right. How many officers were with you,

Approximately two officers.
And how were they and you armed?
They had their side arms, service revolver. 1

was the only one that had a shotgun.
Q You had a shotgun?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did they have their side arms out of the holsters?
A No, sir.
Q They were in the holsters?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was anyone wearing any protective equipment?
A No one, to my knowledge, that entered the house

had any vests on.
Q No one had a vest on?
A No, sir. Several men on the outside did.
Q Did you get the name of the person who admitted

you to the house?
A The young lady was later identified as Mrs.

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860
Sharon Wallace who lived there.

Q Sharon?
A Wallace.

Q Sharon Wallace?
A Yea.
Q Now, what did you personally do when you were in

the house, after you were admitted by Miss Wallace?
A After X seen Lieutenant Coll was coming in,

myself and another officer went, proceeded to go upstairs.
Upon going upstairs I opened one of the bedroom

doors and observed a male sleeping in the bed. I put the
flashlight around in the room and under the bed and closed the
door and the man I observed in the bed didn't even awake.

Q He didn't even wake up?
A No, sir.
Q And then, go ahead, what did you do then?
A Then the remaining rooms still on the second

floor was searched, and we went right back downstairs again,
and at that time Lieutenant Coll was coming up from the cellar
and I told the other officers that was in the house to go on
the outside, and I handed him my shotgun and told him to take
it outside with him.

Q You told him to take it outside with him?
A Yes.
Q This is after you ascertained no one was in the

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house?

A Yes, sir.
Q Did you have any further conversation with any

of the occupants of the house?
A Only with a lady who was later identified, 1

believe, as Mrs. Ethel Wallace, trying to explain to the othei
daughter to make sure she understood why we were there, and
she said she did.

Q This Mrs. Wallace was the mother of the--
A The mother?
Q Of the daughter who had admitted you?
A Yes.
Q Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Did you have any pictures of the suspects in

your possession at the time you went to this house?
A Several of the officers had pictures but I

didn't have any in my personal possession, no, sir.
Q Did you or anyone in your presence show any

pictures to the occupants of the house?
A Not to my knowledge. They were questioned if

they knew of the Veneys and it was only just what they read
in the paper and there was nothing else about it.

Q Did you go in the basement at all?
A No, sir.

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Q Were any of the people In the house seized or

patted down or was there anything of that kind going on?
A Not to my knowledge.

MR. SAUSE: Your witness.
CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. NABRIT:

Q What day was this, Sergeant?
A Brandt, B-r-a-n-d-t.

Q Yes. What day was this?
A On December 30th. I can't tell you the exact

day.

Q At about what time?
A Approximately 9:25 p.m.

Q And how many officers did you have with you at
the side door?

A TWo officers.

Q Earlier you said approximately two. Do you
mean exactly two or approximately two?

A Approximately two.

Q Maybe more?
A No, sir.

THE COURT: Well, what does ''approximately two
mean? It couldn't be more. You mean you may have had only
one or you may have had three?

THE WITNESS: Well, so the outside of the hous

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it was right there by the door, and there was one man stations
outside of the house.

THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: And the two officers that was wit

me, it could have looked like four to anyone else, but two
officers were with me when I entered the premises.

THE COURT: Two came in with you?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: And there was one outside?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: All right.

BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Now, when the door was opened, you were standing;

outside of the side door when the door was opened, what did
you see inside immediately?

A I seen the young lady who opened the door and
no one else.

Q You saw one person?
A Yes, sir.
Q And did you--how long after she opened the door

did you step inside?
A After I finished the brief conversation with her

and she stepped back, and she said, "Come on in."
Q Now, can you describe to me what that person whp

opened the door looked like?
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A Mot today, no, sir. She identified herself to

me as a lady by the name of Mrs. Sharon Wallace, and I had no
reason to doubt her word.

Q Did she say she was Mrs. Wallace?
A Well, she was sixteen years of age, Miss, Miss,

not married.
Q Did she tell you her age?
A I asked her her age, and she said she was sixte<
Q Where were you when you asked her her age?
A Later on as we came downstairs, and 1 wrote the

name down.
Q Did she tell you her name when she opened the

door while you were still outside or after you came from
upstairs?

A She told me her particulars as to her name and
her age when we came downstairs.

I asked her when the door was opened, 1 asked
her, "Who lives here?" And she said, "I do."

Then I repeated the information that we had
pertaining to one of the brothers supposed to be in the house,
"Do you mind if we look around? '

She said, "Come on in."
Q Did you ask if Mrs. Wallace lived there?
A No, I didn't, I didn't know the name of the

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people who lived there.

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Q You didn't?
A No, sir.

Q Was there anybody else standing there in the
doorway with you calking?

A Standing with me or with Miss Wallace?

Q With you or any other officers talking to gain
entrance?

A No, sir, they didn't.

Q Now, was the officers who— did you or any
officers with you have lookout sheets for the Veneys with thei
pictures printed on then?

A We have them but there was none displayed there,
to my knowledge. I didn't show any.

Q But you had--the officers had theca with them?
A There was some in the group, yes, sir.

Q When you went upstairs, how many— who— did
anyone go upstairs with you?

A Just me and another officer?

Q Any occupants of tne house?
A No, sir.

Q No lady who went upstairs with you?
A Not to ray— not that I can recall, no, sir.

Q Did you see any lady up there? ^ ̂
A No, sir.

Never did?Never did?

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A Mo.

Q Did you see anyone up there except the sleeping
man?

A That's all I seen up there.

Q \ What was the name of the officer who went upstal
with you?

A I couldn't tell you the name of the officer that
went up there with me. It was Just one other officer. I
don't recall which officer it was, what his name was.

Q You mentioned a call that came in at the precirn
or at your station house. What station is that, sir?

A Southwestern.

Q Southwestern?
A Yes.

Q And you mentioned a Mrs. Greene. Is she the
clerk at your station?

A Mo, she is not.
THE COURT: She's the one at Northeastern.

BY MR. NABRIT:

Q She'8 the clerk at Northeastern?
A She's the clerk at Northeastern who relayed the

information from our clerk at Southwest.

Q Who was also a lady?
A Who is also a lady, yes.

Q Is this Huron Street address, is that within the

district that you're— or within your district?
A Yes, sir, it's in Southwest.
Q Did any other officers go upstairs after you

came down?
A That I can't answer, sir; to the best of my

knowledge, no, sir.
MR. NABRIT: No further questions. That's all
MR. MURPHY: No further questions. Thank you,

Sergeant.
(Witness excused.)

Thereupon
LIEUTENANT JAMES GADDEN

resumed the witness stand.
THE CLERK: You are still under oath.
MR. MURPHY: Lieutenant, would you step down

a moment. I want to call the Sergeant.
(Witness left the stand.)

Thereupon

867

SERGEANT JOHN T. DUNN
was called as a witness for and on behalf of the defendant
and, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:

THE CLERK: State your full name for the record.

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District.
THE WITNESS: Sergeant John T. Dunn, Western

DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q Sergeant, how long have you been a member of
the police force?

A This June the 1st, it will be twenty-three yearjs,
sir.

Q How long have you been a sergeant, sir?
A Thirteen years.
Q Sergeant, did you participate at all in the

attempts to serve the arrest warrants for the Veney brothers?
A No, sir.
Q You did however receive certain information

with regard to a person named Samuel Veney; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Would you tell His Honor about that, please,

where and when it was and how you received the information?
A To the best of ray knowledge, having worked in

the area of Fulton and Landvale for approximately thirteen
years, Your Honor, I knew that Al's Liquor Store had s very
good file, as far as cashing checks. So I went into the
liquor store.

To the best of my recollection it was the nigh{
of December 27th, and I did find in his check card file for

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identification purposes a card bearing the name of one Samuel
Veney.

To the best of my recollection it was, the check
at that time was a Bethlehem Steel check, and on the card was
the name Samuel Veney, and the birth date of this Samuel
Veney who did cash the check, and the address of 2416 Eutaw
Place, along with a badge plate number designating his
specific job at Bethlehem Steel along with a Virginia, either
an operator’ 8 license with the serial numbers or a registration
card, I don’t recall which.

I do have a due report somewhere. 1 do not
know where that report is.

Q Sergeant, what did you do with that information'
A I copied the information on my own notes, and

then proceeded to the Western District, which is approximately
four-and-a-half or five blocks from Fulton and Landvale.

I then contacted the sergeant— 1 mean the
Lieutenant Carlton Manuel. I had telephonic conversation
with him, and after that 1 set down and made out a due report
to my Captain.

Q You reported this information you got to the
officers who were conducting the search; is that correct?, 516A That’s correct.

THE COURT: Was Lieutenant Manuel conducting
the search? ̂ '

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MR. MURPHY: Yes, Your Honor.
870

THE COURT: He did conduct this particular
searchy Was he regularly doing it? 1 didn't understand.

\ MR. SAUSE: Well, Your Honor, if I may—
THE COURT: He said he reported it to Lieutenan

Manuel, and I understood that Lieutenant Manuel was in charge
of this particular search, but 1 thought the question was the
man who was participating generally in the search, and I dicin'
understand that there was any report of anyone participating

generally in the search.
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q Lieutenant Manuel was your superior officer; is
that correct?

A Hot my inxnediate superior, no, sir. I am
attached to the Western District.

Q Well, why was it that you reported this to
Lieutenant Manuel? Why would you select him to report?

A I was given the information that Lieutenant
Manuel was at the Northeastern District and was in charge of
the particular squad.

THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: That had been designated to

conduct these searches.
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q You didn't go on the search?

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No, sir.
THE COURT:

871

THE COURT: 1 may have had that wrong. I
didn't understand that Lieutenant Manuel had been on many of
them. He was a Detective Bureau Sergeant.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, sir.
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q Sergeant, I'm handing you Defendant's Exhibit
No. 1 and ask you if you can Identify that?

A Yes, sir, this seems to be the card that I took
all of my information from other than--here's the Virginia
driver' 8 license.

Q I see.
MR. SAUSE: Your witness.

CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NABRIT:

Q Sergeant, you had used the files of this liquor
store before?

A Yes, I had.
Q You were familiar with, were you familiar witn

the information they kept on their cards, the type of informs
cion? Y

A Oh, yes, yes.
Q When you looked at this particular card, did

someone there at the store have to interpret it for you or
what?

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A No, sir, no indeed, sir.
Q Did you ask anyone at the store any questions

about the card?
A I just asked, 1 asked permission from the liquor

store operator i£ I could take that information because that
is his own business information, and he so did give me
permission.

Q Mr. Tucker?
A That'8 correct.
Q But you didn't ask Mr. Tucker any questions

about the card?
A No, sir, he had no idea what 1 wanted with it.
Q Now, from your previous visits to the card file

had you learned that they kept fingerprints on the back of the
card?

A That' 8 correct. The first time that any person
that they do not know comes in to cash a check, they will go
through that routine with each individual regardless of who
he is.

Q Did you notice the fingerprints on this
particular card?

A Yes, sir.
Q You did?
A Yes.
Q Did you make any attempt to copy them or classi:

518

87J
chew or anything like that?

A No, sir.
Q Or study them at all?
A No, sir.
Q Did you have a--strike that.

THE COURT: Is there any date on It? 1 know
what you're thinking about. Is there any date on it?

MR. NABRIT: I didn't notice.
BY MR. NABRIT:

Q What time of the evening was it when you went
into Al's Liquor Store?

A If I had my original report to the Captain, I
don't know what has happened to it, I could pin it down pretty
closely.

Q Well, I'll pass that for the moment.
Looking at the Defendant's Exhibit No. 1, did

you, what did you--would you look at the second line and tell
me what the writing on the second line indicates to you?

A To the best of my belief, this 619 would be che
date of June 19th.

Q Yes.
A Bethlehem Steel. This would be the badge plate

number, and this other particular number would designate his
particular shop or mill.

Q What is that? Speak it out loud.

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A 520-2115. That would be his payroll or badge
number, to the best of ray knowledge.

Q And what else?
A 2416 Eutaw Place, which would be where Samuel

Veney was residing on June the 19th.
Q Now, why did you think it was--I believe you

testified it was a Bethlehem Steel Company check. What made
you think that?

A Because of the fact that the man at the liquor
store, Mr. Tucker, had the Bethlehem Steel plus the employmen
number.

Q So you took it that since he had the employment
number the man must have cashed the check there and showed
employment badge?

A That's correct.

Q Now, did you reach any conclusion as to what
year that was?

A Yes, 1 would, I would, of course, use my own
mind on that and figure that it was 1964.

Q But nothing on the card says 1964?
A No.

Q The only year given on the card is 1962?
A That*8 correct.

Q December 26, 1962, another entry?
A Yes.

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A
10/26/62.

Q
A

THE COURT: That's for an earlier—
HR. NABR1T: An earlier—
THE COURT: Apparently an earlier address.

BY MR. NABRIT:
Q Is that correct?

Well, I really don't know. I see a date here
I do see that.
You don't know what that refers to?
I do not. I did not question Mr. Tucker with

reference to that or this here. This means nothing to me.
Q Referring to the bottom line of the card?
A Yes.
Q Where there is a series of numbers and slashes?
A Yes. To the best of my, I would personally,

being a police officer, would testify this to be 155 pounds,
21 years of age.

Now, what this means, I don't know. That coul̂ l
be a scribble plus 11 plus 155 plus 21.

That is my impression, that he would be 21 yearfc
of age, weighing approximately 155 pounds, and I would imagin;
5-11; I'm not sure.

Q Now, when you called up Lieutenant Manuel on thjE
phone, can you remember what you told Lieutenant Manuel, as
best you can?

A To the best of my knowledge, 1 gave him all tails

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information here: Samuel Veney, 2416 Eutaw Place, on the date
of June 19, 1964, cashed a Bethlehem Steel check, with the
employment number of 520-2115.

Then this Gilbert's Plastic Supply, 1 know from
personal knowledge that they're out of ousiness, as far as our
district is concerned.

I discarded that. That was my disregard.
Then the Virginia driver's license, 426519 was

given to Lieutenant Manuel in case the Samuel Veney here did
not reside at 2416 Eutaw Place, the Lieutenant through police
procedure could then get a Virginia address possibly from this
number, and from the Virginia address seeing the Veney
brothers had left town.

Q But basically everything you told us is from
something you seen on the card except the year 1964; is that
correct?

A That's correct, in my view, my view of that it
contains everything that I used on the telephone conversation.

Q Just indicating, I asked the previous question
about the time, and if you want to look at it, 1 have no
objection to your looking at it.

THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: I, at that time I was working tbe

four to twelve shift and were not even referring to this, ano
my recollection would be about approximately about somewhere

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in the neighborhood of 10:45, 11:00 p.m. that night, and aftex
my report I went home at midnight.
BY MR. MABRIT ••

Q 10:45 to 11:00 p.m.?
A Yes, somewhere in that.

Q Was the time?
A Approximately the time.

Q 10:45 to 11:00 p.m.?
A Somewhere in that time range. It could have

been a little sooner or it could have been a little later.
Q Mow, your report i8 dated December 26th so your

visit must have been December 26th and not 27th?
A That's correct. That would be correct, yes.

THE COURT: The report, yes, he worked up unci!,
midnight on the 26th.

MR. NABRIT: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And if he wrote his report after h<!

got back to the station, he would have written his report, he
would have written the report after midnight.

MR. NABR1T: Yes.
BY MR. MABRIT:

Q The report and the visit were both on the 26th?
A That's correct.

THE COURT: You got back to the station then
before midnight?

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THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. I visited the
liquor store, got iny information, went to the station, and
made the phone call, and then after making the phone call, mad
those two reports.

THE COURT: Well, the question that occurred tc
me, and I might as well ask it now. Did it occur to you it
might have been a different Samuel Veney?

THE WITNESS: Well, yes, yes, it could have bee
The only thing to show on this card was one Samuel Veney, and
Your Honor, we wanted one Samuel Jefferson Veney; but I was
acting on the premise it may have been either one and the sam«!
party.

THE COURT: Did you have any information as to
where the Veneys had been working?

THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: Did you tell the Lieutenant that

there were fingerprints on the record you had seen?
THE WITNESS: I did, sir.
THE COURT: You did tell him that?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
THE COURT: Is it "Sam'1 on the front?
MR. NABRIT: Yes.
THE COURT: It's hard to say whether it's close

enough or not close enough. It's not the same but it's not
so far off. If it had been the man on the back it's clear

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there would have been a great deal of difference. You can't
say it's real close; you can't say It's real far away.
BY MR. NABRIT:

Q Old you ask for permission to borrow that card
from Mr. Tucker or to take the fingerprints?

A No, sir, I did't.
Q Did it occur to you?
A I removed the card from the file, and there's

a counter there about three feet from the file, and all I did,
I copied the information. I did not remove it from the stor<i

Q And you didn't ask then if you could?
A No.

THE COURT: Well, if he told the Lieutenant
that there were fingerprints on it, I don't know what more is
expected of the Sergeant in his position, it would seem to me

MR. NABRIT: Nothing further, Your Honor.
MR. MURPHY: No further questions. Thank you

Thank you, Sergeant.
MR. NABRIT: Thank you.

(Witness excused.)
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Thereupon
------- LIEUTENANT JAMES J. CADDEN
resumed the witness stand and testified further as follows:

THE CLERK: Lieutenant Cadden, you are still
under oath.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued.)
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q Lieutenant, yesterday we reviewed with you the
types of phone calls and the types of leads you got with
regard to the whereabouts of the persons named in the arrest
warrants and other suspects and related matters, and we were
just about to get to the point where we would like to ask you
for a summary of the procedure that you followed in investigat
these tips or leads or reports, whatever you want to call then
that is, how after making an evaluation of them, how you
followed them out?

Was there a general pattern to that?
A Yes, sir, the first, to answer, sir, the entire

unit would respond, and of course, the advance car, the scout
car to observe the neighborhood, and of course, to setup the
necessary safeguards. This has already been testified to,
and to protect pedestrian traffic and all motor traffic, and
of course after, of course the scout car would return and mee
the unit approximately three or four blocks away, and we woul|
proceed to the destination, and of course, make the tuxm-up.

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Of course, after numerous days the unit was

divided, to a nine to eight or a nine to three and three to
eleven, if you follow me. " *

—r---- Q Yea. ----— — ---
\ A These men were divided. Fifteen or twenty men

would be in the daytime, and I think it was eight to three, an<
of course, they would be relieved by the three to eleven men,
and of course, they continued up until recently until a week
ago they acted accordingly and they conducted their inquiries
accordingly.

Q Lieutenant, has there been a decrease in the
number of these communications?

A Yes, sir, I think from six, seven, eight, they
just slowly diminished day by day, I would say.

Q What is this a result of? Can you tell us that’
A I imagine this legal action which is going on

now, this legal action and the lack of additional phone calls
and the information.

Q You have not had any additional phone calls or
information?

A No, sir.
Q Is that unusual for there to be a number of calls

and then for it to trail off to none?
A Well, sir, after a couple of weeks it normally

trails off. Of course, this has been a rather sudden decline

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in the last couple of days.
Q Was there an unusually large number of calls or

tips or information in this particular case or was this about
the normal amount of calls you get?

A Well, this is more than the normal, yes, sir,
this investigation. __

Q Now, did you go out on any of these investiga
tions yourself?

A I participated in fifty-eight.
Q Fifty-eight?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, was there any general routine procedure in

those investigations?
A Oh, yes, as I say, if we received a call, of

course, we'd evaluate it, and whoever received the call reley^
it to us, and if we felt the basis of it, the sincerity of thi-
caller, and if he didn't sound like a crank and so forth, thê i
we would proceed.

Q Then after you got out to the home what was the
procedure there?

A Well, sir, a detective or officer with a
protective vest, of course, would approach the front of the
house, the front of the house, there being an exterior to
safeguard the front and rear, and several officers armed with
shotguns and automatic weapons, of course, would go to the

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rear, and of course traffic would be detoured to either end <
the block, if possible, and pedestrian traffic would be
detoured.

Then we would approach the house, and it would
be Lieutenant Glover, Lieutenant Glover and I participated
jointly in approximately thirty-some. I don’t recall the
exact number.

But a protective officer with a vest would
proceed, he or I, one of us went to the door, and we would
knock, and whoever responded opened the door, and we would
explain our purpose there, that we were searching for the
Veney brothers. This is apparently well-known t>y most of th^
populace, and we had the information, and we'd usually name
our source, anonymous calls or information from other officer^
that the Veneys could be found there, and request their
permission to search.

This was granted in all cases where I entered
the homes, and of course, about four or five officers would
follow us into the home and conduct the search, and the search
would vary from, would range from two to three minutes, some
times five minutes, not a great deal of lengthy time, as 1

recall it.
Q These searches that were in homes, was it part

of the procedure to pac down the persons in the home or to
otherwise inspect the clothing of the persons in the hone?

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A Sir, I was never on inspection in the fifty-

eight that I participated in, of any officer and myself or an)
officer in my presence or view to pat anyone down.

We usually viewed the human form particularly ii
it was a male, of course, to determine if it was the Veneys,
and there was no patting down in my presence as I recall it,
or by myself.

Q Did anyone ever make any complaints to you aboul
the searches?

A Never, never, sir, on any occasion.
Q You found the citizenry in Baltimore City to be

generally co-operative?
A Extremely co-operative, sir. We made daily

reports to the Commissioner or Captain Mahrer about the
wonderful co-operation we received.

Q Were most people you found were aware of the
crimes and of the suspects for whom you were searching, the
Veney brothers?

A That's true, sir.
Q Lieutenant, before we get into some of these

specific investigations or inspections, you indicated that
there were, a few minutes ago you said that some, that all th^
calls were evaluated; is that correct?

A Yes, sir.
Q And yesterday, 1 think at the conclusion of youi

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testimony you said that after you had evaluated them you turned
\

down or rejected or not followed up twelve phone calls?
\\ THE COURT: No.\

THE WITNESS: Not I personally.
\
THE COURT: That is not what 1 understood his

\testimony to be.
.THE WITNESS: 1 personally, I personally

received twelve or fifteen myself.
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q X see.
A I discarded none, Lieutenant Glover and the othdr

officers who testified, they found sane to be crank calls, ami
I heard that testimony but I myself, 1 don't know the particular
addresses or where they are located, but I myself, it could
possibly be not twelve or fifteen, and I just assume that.

yesterday.

discarded none.

THE COURT: That is what his testimony was

MR. SAUSE: Yes.
THE COURT: Ten or fifteen calls, and he
3 •
MR. SAUSE: Yes.
THE COURT: That's my note of it.
MR. SAUSE: Yes.

BY MR. SAUSE:
Q Now, directing your attention to December 31st

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of last year, did you go to 917 North Chapel Street?
A Yes, sir, 1 did, sir.
Q And would you tell His Honor what you did upon

your arrival there?
A We left the Northeast Station. Captain Mahrer,

as 1 recall, furnished this address.
THE COURT: Captain who?
THE WITNESS: Captain Mahrer, sir, of the

Northeastern District.
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: And as I recall it, as I recall

it correctly, I could be mistaken, the resident at this
address, he acquired information by phone that the inhabitant
of this residence had signed Veney, Sam Veney had used their
name as a reference on an insurance policy, or something to
that effect.

MR. NABRIT: Now, may it please the Court—
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. NABRIT: May it please the Court, I don't,

I do not make any hearsay objection; I just note for the
record that the witness is apparently recounting what someone
else told him about a phone call, and says to his recollection

THE COURT: He says it was something to this
effect, and it's so vague, that they made the decision, as I
gather it, they made the decision to make the raid, and the

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decision was made by Captain Mahrer, as I understand it.

HR. SAUSE: Yes, sir.
THE WITNESS: That it should be looked into.
MR. NABRIT: I beg your pardon?
THE WITNESS: It sounded sound.
THE COURT: Well, who made the decision to go

there? You or Captain Mahrer?
THE WITNESS: Oh, I did, sir. Captain Mahrer

relayed the information to me.
THE COURT: Well, I think he can tell. Then

what you are saying, Mr. Nabrit, is really argument, that
you're calling my attention to the fact that he is stating
hearsay; but again it is res gestae of what went on, and your
statement that it was probably something less than probable
cause because it's so vague or otherwise, which is argument,
which 1 will hear, of course. 53.3
— ~ MR. NABRIT: All right.

THE COURT: All right.
MR. NABRIT: I did not mean to cause this much

of a disruption.
THE COURT: If he made the decision he has got

to tell us what he made the decision on, and of course, it
doesn't tend to prove the truth of the fact, as I said before\ N.It doesn't prove the truth that Veney, that the|s
people had been a reference, that Veney had used them as a

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reference. It simply proves what this man had before him
when he made his decision to go in.

THE WITNESS: And there was an additional address*
I don't recall now--in east Baltimore, not too far from this
particular address, that the Captain furnished, where there
was found information, and of course, we proceeded to the
Chapel Street address, Sergeant Clifford.
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q You mean that on another occasion the Captain
furnished you with another address?

A On that particular day along with this address
there was another address, I think, that 1 recall, it was in
east Baltimore where Sam Veney used as a credit the inhabitants
of a home, an address, along with this Chapel Street address,

Of course, as I recall, it was an insurance
policy, and we responded.

Q You say in this other instance that Captain
Mahrer had given you, that this information had been good
information, was it? What do you mean by that?

THE COURT: He didn't say that. I gather that
the Captain gave him two addresses, and you are following the
two of them together.

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And they were both down in the sanje

general neighborhood.
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THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, and they seemed to be
reasonably sound information that he had replied by phone.
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q All right.
A So we proceeded to Chapel Street, and Sergeant

Clifford, and when I say Sergeant Clifford I was mistaken.
It's Sergeant Connelly, and Detective Conroy, and I think
Detective Walker and myself, and then the— there were several
other officers from Northeast, and we proceeded to this addrens.

We went around the block and looked it over, thf
men, and the exterior was safeguarded in the back, which is
routine, and I and Detective Conroy proceeded to the door.
He had the vest on, and 1 think immediately in back of me was
Detective Walker and Sergeant Connelly, and I can't be exact
as to who was first and who was second behind me.

As I was knocking on the door a young, a youth
came up, a boy about fourteen or fifteen, and there was no
response to the door and he told me he lived there.

And I told him our purpose there. I asked him
if he knew the Veneys. I exhibited photographs of the Veney^
as 1 did in most cases in my visits to homes, and he said he
didn't know them, and I heard him even testify in court the
other day, I think he used the name Bryce or Price, or some
thing like that, I couldn't recall that.

He told me his parents were working. 1 asked

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if we could look the house over, and he said yes. He seemed
quite interested in us because we were police, and we went in,
looked this house over, took, consumed no more than two minute
it was a small home, two-story home.

THE COURT: The boy went in with you?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: He testified that he did.
THE WITNESS: Yes, he was interested in the gun

as I remember, he was looking at the guns that I remember one
officer had, he had a shotgun or something, and he was asking
what kind of gun it was.
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q Did he appear to you nervous or afreid?
A No, sir, definitely not.
Q How many officers went into the home?
A There was four, sir, including myself, Sergeant

Connelly, Detective Conroy, Detective Walker. They conducted
the search. I remained in the living room there talking to
the youth.

Q And Detective Walker is a Negro officer; is that
correct?

A Yes, he is.
THE COURT: That's the man who testified the

other day?
Yes, a rather strapping fellow.

5 3 0
THE WITNESS:

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THE COURT: Yes, I remember him. 5 ^ r

BY HR. SAUSE:
Q Now, Lieutenant, did you also participate in an

inspection o£ 2303 Allendale Street?
A I did, sir.
Q On December 28th at 4:15 in the afternoon?
A I don't know the e?;act date, sir; X remember the

address. I think it was approximately that time.
Q Lieutenant, 1 have just one other question there

These times have been, of some during the day, some in the
morning, some in the afternoon, some at night, and some in the
early morning hours?

A Yes.
Q Is there any pattern in these? Was there any

reason for the time of these or has the time any independent
significance?

A No, sir, there was no distinction. If we
received a call at three o'clock or in an hour the turn-up
would be conducted.

Q Well, Lieutenant, was it felt that there was any
necessity for acting promptly on these calls?

A Certainly, this particular call, this house,
Allendale Street, we were going to that, and that address, as
I recall, was obtained from a chum, a friend of Sam Veney, or
a former resident of a chum, a friend of Sam Veney, and in

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addition I think there were several phone calls that the
Veneys were being fed at that location or foodstuff was being
taken to them at that location.

Q Tell His Honor, what did you do when you got
there?

A Well, the entire unit responded to that locatioi
as I recall. We looked it over. Sergeant Conroy and I
scouted. Lieutenant Glover was in another car, and we
returned to that about two blocks away, and as 1 recall, the
house was situated by itself, it was a stuckboar house, and
as I recall it, it was light in color, three or four stories.
1 can't really state whether it was two or three. There was
an attic on it, as I recall, and a large porch.

We went up; we surrounded the premises, and I--
Lieutenant Glover remained outside, if l:m not mistaken. I
proceeded to the immediate front door, and Sergeant Hughes
preceded me.

Behind me was Detective Bosak, and Detective—

Officer DeCarlo from the Northeast District, and Sergeant Roy
remained on the outside in the inxnediate area of the porch.

As I recall there was another door to the left
or to the right, and Sergeant Pryor and Detective DePaola wen
to that particular door.

Sergeant Hughes knocked on the door immediately
in front of me, and a young girl about nine or ten, answered

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the door. She was attired in a lady's dress; she was
apparently playing house. There were two or three other
small children with her.

We asked her who was home, and she said only her
and the kids there, and I think one was a neighbor's child.

1 explained my purpose £or being there and asked
her i£ she had any recent visitors there, and she said no, and
she said her mother and father worked and they wouldn't be
home until six o'clock.

I showed her a photo of Sam and Earl Veney.
She didn't recognize them.

I asked was it all right to search the house,
and she said yes. We looked over the first floor, and I
don't know if the officers with me, the three officers, the
three officers with me looked the premises over. I don't
know where they went. They went in, looked around, and it
was only a matter of thirty or forty seconds maybe when they
returned.

Sergeant Roy came in with me, and right beside t
door there is a bedroom where the children were playing
apparently.

And with that, as 1 recall, 1 even left ray
calling card there for Northeastern, and when the parents
returned home to contact us for any information.

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BY MR. SAUSE:
Q Lieutenant, did you also participate in the

somewhat related, I suppose, investigation of Monroe Street
with regard to Mrs. Sheppard? >40

A I did, sir.
Q Would you tell His Honor about your participatio

in that investigation?\
A \ I will, sir. That was on January 6th, about

twelve noon I with the unit from Northeast District and
Lieutenant Schnavle, S-c-h-n-a-v-l-e or -e-1, the acting
Captain.

He came in with Sergeant Broome with our unit
that was quartered there, and advised me that he had received
a frantic phone call from a lady who stated that the Veneys
were at this address in the northwest section of Baltimore,
and she said, "You'd better get there in a hurry; they're
ready to leave," as he relayed it to me.

1 took the unit, and we proceeded over to this
address in west Baltimore, northwest Baltimore.

Q Do you see Mrs. Sheppard in the courtroom todayf
A Yes, sir, the lady with glasses sitting back

V
there with the roses design across— with the dark hat, the
rose design, next to the gentleman there.

THE COURT: He said a phone call from the lady

894

At that address?

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THE WITNESS: No, sir, no, sir. This was
another address in northwest Baltimore.

I'll clarify it for Your Honor. We were en
route to another turn-up when Sergeant Lane called up from the
radio to meet him at Gwynn Falls and Dukeland as a result of
the Monroe Street turn-up.

THE COURT: All right.
Well, I was confused end I thought that the lady

said something that the Veneys were at 2003 Monroe Street?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: Apparently you were going somewhere

else?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. SAUSE: Your Honor was just as much

concerned as Mr. Murphy and I were.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I'll try to do bettsi

with this.
We were en route to another location. I'm

sorry. And we were proceeding west across Twenty-ninth
Street when the dispatcher called our particular unit, and we
acknowledged, and he advised us to meet 637 car, the North
western car, at Gwynn Falls and Dukeland Street.

Now, we arrived at Gwynn Falls and Dukeland, I
imagine about 12:15, and 1 met Sergeant Raymond, and he had
with him a cruising patrol and two or three other radio cars.

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He came over to my car and he relayed this
information to me that this unit, 601 car earlier had received
Information from a Western District police car from whom in
turn had received information from a cab driver, and he said
it sounded like pretty good Information.

He related that the cab driver informed the
officer that he had taken two female passengers from somewhere
downtown, had dropped one off at Druid Hill Avenue and taken
the other one to the 2000 block of North Monroe Street, and er
route to that location the two women passengers engaged in an
argument, and the results of this argument were one complainec
to the other, it was, "Well, my son doesn’t go out drinking
like your son shooting policemen."
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q After receiving this information, did you go to
this address on Monroe Street?

A Yes, sir.
Well, Sergeant Raymond, of course, reminded me

that one of his officers had been shot at in back of the
Coliseum, and it was in that week, of course, January 2nd,
and he had his hat shot off, and it just missed him, almost
missed him from being killed.

Q Was that the one where the police officer's
badge or his hat--

A Yes, sir.
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Q
897

— or part of the emblem?
A Yes.
Q Was shot off?
A Yes.
Q The head of the plowman on the Maryland seal, 1

think?
A That' 8 right, sir. The officer was felled when

his hat was struck, as 1 recall it.
Q Now, Lieutenant, when you went to this address

were you in command of the unit when you went there?
A Yes, 1 was.
Q You were the ranking officer?
A That's correct, sir.
Q Now, when you went there, you made— did you make

the decision to go to Monroe Street?
A 1 did, sir.
Q Now, when you went there, did you proceed, and

your purpose--what did you perceive your purpose was in the
case of your going there?

A Well, it could have been associated with the
Veney case, or, of couree( Officer Charis. There was a two
fold purpose there. It could be connected with either case.

Q Well, tell the Court what— whether or not there
is anything in addition that you would like to add about your
conversation with the Sergeant?

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A Except he told me, he reminded me about Officer

Charis, so we said, "Well, let's look Into It," and down we
went.

We set up the usual safeguards, knocked on the
door. Mrs. Sheppard opened the door. 1 Immediately stated
our purpose there.

She admitted us Into the house. We went into
several nooks there. I stood in the hallway and talked to
her, and there was a gentleman to the right.

1 think Sergeant Raymond asked her who he was,
and she said it was her son.

Now, Sergeant Raymond, 1 heard It testified tha{:
he patted this man down. 1 didn't see him pat him down; 1

saw him talking to him.
And I proceeded to ask Mrs. Sheppard, I asked

her, I asked her if she had arrived home in the previous hour
She said she had.

I asked her if she had been in a Diamond cab,
and she said she was. Then I asked her if she was accorapanl|e
by someone else, and she was hesitant; she wouldn't answer.

1 asked her if she had conversation with
another passenger in the cab, and she wouldn't answer that.

1 told her we had the cab driver who relayed
this information, and 1 related to her what information 1 had
received, and she said it was a lie, and I asked her who--may

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we search her house?

And she said, "Yes, you may, there's nobody in
this house," and as I remember she was waving her arms, and
the officers proceeded to search.

I asked her if she would confront this cab
driver to straighten this out, to clarify this matter, and she
said she'll see anybody, she wanted to see this cab driver.
I remember that; it was quite audible.

Then she wanted to turn the stew off; she had sc
stew cooking in the kitchen, and we were only in the house,
I'd say, five minutes.

We left. No one touched her. 1 didn't touch
her, and 1 didn't touch her son. As I recall, I told the
officer to put her in a radio car, and when 1 left she was
going out the door, and I'd say she had her son by the arm.

1 followed her out. When she got to the side
walk they put her in a police car.

Sergeant Raymond closed the house up. I
instructed Sergeant Raymond in front of the steps to do that,
to go into the station, to get a lieutenant, to ascertain the
identity of this other woman if he could, to get the cab
driver and to confront him with these two ladies to straighteji
this matter out one way or che other.

THE COURT: Well, did you arrest her there?
THE WITNESS: Certainly, I told them to take

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her into the Northwest District.

THE COURT: You told them to take her?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Isn't that arresting her?
THE WITNESS: She wanted to go with them, Your

Honor.
THE COURT: Well, she went with Sergeant

Raymond but she was arrested there?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: And she was told to go?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, and I understand what

was testified here.
THE COURT: And you deny that she was arrested
THE WITNESS: Oh, no, sir, she was arrested.

There was sufficient cause to arrest her for investigation,
but I would however have handled the matter differently
myself.

THE COURT: Well, ell right. You say they
put her in the car and took her down. Was she under arrest?
Could she have refused to go? Had you told her that she'd
go?

THE WITNESS: I asked her to confront the cab
driver since she wanted to face this cab driver and tell me
and straighten this matter out, and she said she definitely
wanted to straighten it out, and I said, "Would you go to the

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Northwest District," and as 1 recall, she said yes. I can't
recall definitely what 1 said.

THE COURT: Well, I'm not trying to make
difficulty between you and the other man.

THE WITNESS: No, sir.
THE COURT: But: do you deny that you gave him

instructions to book her?
THE WITNESS: I did not give instructions to

book her, no, sir, emphatically no, sir.
I told him to take her to his district, to get

his lieutenant to pursue the matter, to find the identity of
this other lady and get the cab driver, confront her, and
straighten the matter out.

THE COURT: Well, she's a woman certainly at
least seventy, isn't she?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Did it ever occur to you to bring

the cab driver to her house?
THE WITNESS: No, sir.

BY MR. SAUSE:
Q Now, Lieutenant, when this woman stopped asking

you questions, did she give any reason for refusing to answer
your questions as to who the other person she had been in the
cab with and whether or not these statements had been made in
the cab?

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902
A She denied any such statement. She said, at

first, she said she wasn't with anyone, and I asked her was sh
with another lady. The cab driver said she was with another
lady.

She said, "If I was with another lady, so what?"
Or something to that extent. I don't remember exactly what
she said, but she denied making any such statement. She
denied being with a lady, and she said she was with a lady.
It was very confusing.

Q Well, initially she had answered the first
question you asked her?

A Yes.
Q Now, after she was sent to the station, did you

go back to the station too and follow this?
A Well, sir, I felt that after this, after talking;

to the lady, I felt that there was no connection with the
Veneys at that point, it was a matter of probably, if there
was any connection with the shooting of the officer in the
Northwestern District that occurred several days prior to thin
and I advised Sergeant Raymond of that, and I advised him to
get hold of the lieutenant and pursue the investigation at tlui
point.

I proceeded on to our original destination from
the Northeast.

THE COURT: That is, the Northwestern shooting

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was not a part of your problem?

THE WITNESS: No, sir, and I'm sorry I didn't
go to the Northwestern; perhaps I should have.

_____ — ----------~~ . _ 5 4 9
JBY MR. SAUSE: --■

Q Now, Lieutenant, is there any reason or policy
when there are matters like this where there are disputes, is
there any policy in the— or is there any genera1 practice as
to where a confrontation such as this between cab drivers and
ladies where there is some confusion, is there any general--ie
there a book or rule as to where the matter is to be handled

\or how?
THE COURT: Confrontation on what? I under

stand what "confrontation" means; but this woman is not
supposed to have coomitted any crime, is she?

MR. SAUSE: Well, if Your Honor please, if I'd
been in the Lieutenant's shoes I wouldn't have been very sure
about that.

THE COURT: Well, that's why we have arrest
warrants.

MR. SAUSE: Pardon me, sir?
THE COURT: That's why we have arrest warrants,

to let the magistrate be sure, isn't it?
MR. SAUSE: Well, if Your Honor please, I beg

your pardon because I can't hear for the spectato*$; but in a$
event there must be something presented to the magistrate,

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certainly, as Your Honor has indicated before, it is the dutyV
of the police to investigate these matters.

MR. NABRIT: May it please the Court--
MR. SAUSE: May 1 finish, Mr. Nabrit?
THE COURT: Well, 1 think that's not the case—
MR. NABRIT: He has made some remark about the

spectators, and there was no great noise in the courtroom.
THE COURT: Well, there was some noise but not

I could hear the noise and the noiso
enough noise.

MR. SAUSE:
was distracting me.

THE COURT: Well, there was some noise; it was
not very great; but if Mr. Sause was distracted I will have to
take his word that he was distracted.

But the question was with respect to a
V

confrontation, and they like to confront people at the police
\station, but there are other means of doing it.

MR. SAUSE: No, I was not using it in that way.
THE COURT: Well, we're not trying a false

arrest case here. \
\MR. SAUSE: If Your Honor please, I would just

like to explore this matter and have the Lieutenant explain
this, and that was all I was getting at, to have him explain

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more why he chose that course, and Your Honor asked him about
it.

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Lieutenant has said is that at the time he left her that she
THE COURT: He said, as I gathered it, what the

and he had instructed the Sergeant to take it up with the
lieutenant, with the Sergeant's own lieutenant, the Northwest
lieutenant, who was in charge of the Charis case, because
Lieutenant Cadden was satisfied it had nothing to do with the
Veneys.

Now, if she was not arrested, then the Lieutenan
has nothing further to do with it, and if she was willing to
go down to the station and wait until they got— he says she
was willing to go and wait until they caught up with the cab
driver, that was all right; but of course, that isn't what
happened.

Now, beyond that this gets to be a separate
incident entirely, because if this Lieutenant is right and th«
Sergeant is wrong, what happened after that is an isolated
incident and is not related particularly to the Veney situs tic»
if the woman voluntarily went down to the station.

If she didn't voluntarily go down to the station
then you have a somewhat different situation.

MR. NABRIT: If Your Honor please, I didn't
intend to make an objection to this line of questioning, and
I don't, but I'm not sure 1 understand Your Honor's ruling, to
cut off the line of Inquiry on a relevant ground,\but it is

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our understanding—

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THE COURT: I didn't cut it off.
MR. NABRIT: And this is part of the whole

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pattern, but we make no objection.

\ THE COURT: I didn't cut it off. I started
interrupting by asking him what he meant by 'confrontation,"
and what they were confronting on.

1 just didn't understand why the woman was
arrested. Now, if she wasn't arrested, of course, that's a
different situation.

MR. MURPHY: Your Honor, I believe he testified
originally that she denied being in the cab initially, and the
she expressed some willingness to straighten matters out, whit
would certainly lead to a face to face, the word confrontation
perhaps is not well chosen, but basically that's what it woulc
be.

and possibly 1 see no real conflict between Sergeant Raymond'is
testimony and the Officer's testimony. It could be a matter
of how he Interpreted it. He was busy searching the house,
and I see no real conflict. I think the two are compatible;

\THE COURT:
MR. MURPHY: And she expresses a willingness,

but the question of whether Mrs. Sheppard would have gone if
she didn't want to, is one that I don't think we've gotten to
because the testimony is, 1 think, that she was willing to go

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HR. MURPHY: Yes, sir.
BY MR. SAUSE:

Q Lieutenant, let me be certain that I fully under
stand it: At the time that you left the Monroe Street address,
Mrs. Sheppard was either in or going to the police cruiser.
Was it your impression that you had placed her tinder arrest?

A Mo, sir, I didn't.
THE COURT: Well, all right, go ahead.

BY MR. SAUSE:
Q Lieutenant, did you fill out a Form 95 in this

case? \
A Yes, sir.
Q 95, an offense report, is that a 95?
A 1 typed up a report as to just what transpired

in my presence there, yes, sir.
Q Well, that's the report that you prepared for

Mr. Murphy and me after this case was filed; is that correct?
And you typed up another report prior to that?

A Yes. I typed up that one report on Monroe
Street.

Q Was that before or after the institution of this
suit? \

A 1 don't know, sir. It was after this investigc-

907

THE COURT: Yes, from this witness.

908

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tiontion or turn-up on Monroe Street, a day or so after, or
the day after or something like that.

Q Now, did Mr. Cooper go to the police station to^?
A Yes, sir.
Q As far as you know?
A Yes, sir.
Q And for what reason did he go?
A As I recall that—
Q Did you place him under arrest?
A Sir?
Q Did you place him under arrest?
A No, sir, I didn't place anyone under arrest.
Q All right.
A I asked him as I asked her to go to Northeast,

and she wanted her son to go with her, and I didn't know he
was demented or anything like that until several days ago.
had no conversation with the gentleman.

Q And did she make a request of you or someone
else that he be allowed to go?

A She said, "I want my boy to go with me, my son
to go with me," and that was it; he went with her.

Q Did you have any request made of you by her to
make a phone call?

A No, sir, no.
Q Did you or anyone in your presence push Mrs.

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Sheppard against the wall?
A No, sir, definitely not.
Q Did you or anyone in your presence make an

inspection of the bed and muss it up?
A No, sir. 1 was on the first floor, sir. The

other officers went about the house, and I think there were
two additional officers, three additional officers that
searched the house.

I remained in the living— remained in the hall
way and dining room talking to Mrs. Sheppard.

Q Did you or anyone in your presence tear the
cellar apart?

A No, sir, I didn't go in the cellar.
Q At the time you left the Monroe Street address

had Mr8. Sheppard ever admitted to you or told you the name of
the person, the other person that was in the cab with her?

A No, sir, she had never told me personally, sir.
I wish she would have because I could have gotten this other
lady and straightened this matter out then and there, but she
wouldn't tell me and I don't know why or what reason she
wouldn't tell me.

Q Did you treat her with what you considered to bo
courtesy and civility?

A 1 did, sir.

909

Q Now, Lieutenant, you testified before that you

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'Were the one who procured the arrest warrants In the Veney\\
cases from the Criminal Court of Baltimore; is that correct?

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I did, sir, Northern District.
And did you also in connection with or in

co-operation with the Federal Bureau of Investigation obtain\\flight warrants?
A Yes, December 28th after we got it from the gran

jury.
Q These men were presented by the grand jury of

Baltimore City on the 27th or 28th?
A 28th, yes, sir.
Q The 28th of December?
A Yes, sir.

THE COURT: What warrant did he say he got?
A what?

MR. SAUSE:
THE COURT:

Flight. Presentments.
I understand the presentments, but

you said a--
MR. SAUSE: Flight.
THE COURT: A flight warrant.
MR. SAUSE: A flight warrant.
THE COURT: From whom?
THE WITNESS: To the FBI, sir.
THE COURT: Well, the FBI don't issue flight

warrants. Do you have that?

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MR. SAUSE: No, we haven't got that.
BY HR. SAUSE:

\
QV
A\

Who did you obtain tha flight warrants from?
The FBI, sir, Special Agent Messerschmidt.

« \ All right. Well, who was it that he got it

from? Di<! he go before the Commissioner?
A I assume he did, sir. I'm not familiar with

that procedure, sir. I got verbal confirmation that flight
warrants were being obtained on the 28th in the afternoon.

Q The State's Attorney of Baltimore City notified
the FBI of the action of the grand jury; is that correct?

A Yes, I believe that's a letter form, sir.

Q And these flight warrants are never obtained
without the specific approval of the State's Attorney of
Baltimore City; is that correct?

A That' 8 correct, sir.

Q And you received such permission from Mr. Moylai
the State's Attorney of Baltimore City, in this case?

A Yes, sir.

Q And were the warrants, the flight warrants
issued the same day, this February or January, I mean—

A December 28th, sir.

Q The 28th?
A I don't know when they were issued; they were

prepared.

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Q What was the basis upon which you got this flight

warrant? Did you feel that the suspects had left the State,
that there was a possibility that they had left the State?

A Yes, there was a possibility from information
received, in our interrogation of relatives, that they could
possibly be located out of the State of Maryland.

Q Did you feel at that time that this precluded,
this information that you got precluded any ideas that the
Veneys were still in the State of Maryland or Baltimore City?

A No, sir, 1 felt the possibility they could be
out of town, sir, the possibility, the possibility.

MR. SAUSE: That's all.
THE COURT: Do you want a break for a minute?
MR. NABRIT: May Mr. Hughes examine the witnessfi
THE COURT: 1 saw one of the people signal to

Mrs. Mitchell, and 1 think Mrs. Jackson had just left the
room, and I thought Mrs. Mitchell wanted to go out, if she
wanted a break for a minute, while she went out--well, we'll
hold up a minute. Do you want to take a minute? If you wan
to take a break for a minute, we can do that.

MR. SAUSE: We're finished, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, then let's get the warrants.
MR. NABRIT: Does Your Honor— Your Honor will

recall this morning, Mr. Hughes and I both want to question
the witness, and how long does Your Honor intend to go today?

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THE COURT: Well, 1 understand we are ahead of
schedule still?

MR. MURPHY: I'd say so, Your Honor, yes.
THE COURT: You will finish in the middle of

the day tomorrow probably?
MR. MURPHY: Yes, sir, we will finish when

Lieutenant Cadden is through.
THE COURT: And if you have rebuttal you will

be able to put it on tomorrow, and then we can work out a
schedule.

MR. MURPHY: We would like to, if 8t all possity
with Lieutenant Cadden today.

MR. NABRIT: All right.
_______ ____ THE COURT: All right. Go ahead then.

^ o s s - E X A M I N A T I O N

BY MR. HUGHES:
Q Lieutenant Cadden, you and Lieutenant Glover

were in charge of this whole investigation; is that right?
A Yes, with Captain Mahrer who was our immediate

superior, Captain Mahrer of the Northeastern District, and we
handled the entire phase for Homicide.

Q Now, you say that you never arrested Mrs.
Sheppard?

A Sir, it wasn't my Intention to arrest her, I'll
say at this time also that there was sufficient cause there

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for the arrest, but ray Intentions were not, and had I handled
the matter I would have handled it differently.

Q Well, who did arrest her?
A My understanding was she was taken to Northwestern

District and placed in the books. >54
Q Well, have you read the arrest register?
A 1 can answer that if that is handed back to me

by Mr. Murphy.
Q Well, how does your name happen to be first as

arresting officer?
A I assume Sergeant Raymond submitted my name to

the desk sergeant.
Q You definitely were in charge of the detective

unit in her home?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were you third on the steps?
A As I recall, sir, 1 was behind the first man with

the protective vest, and I think that he was an emergency unit
officer, as 1 recall it.

Q Did you hear him say anything?
V

A Did 1 hear the officer say anything?
Q Yes.
A No, I didn't.
Q Well, when Mrs. Sheppard opened the door—
A Yes.

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Q Did this officer rush in?
A Mo, sir, he remained alongside o£ me in the

vestibule?
Q How did he get by Mrs. Sheppard?
A He didn't get by Mrs. Sheppard. She admitted

us in the home. I stated my purpose there, why, 1 explained
the Veneys, explained the cab situation, and she understood
the cab situation and asked us to come in and she admitted us
to the house, and we stood in the hallway there for several
seconds, probably ten seconds.

I went over this, about the information from
the cab driver. I asked permission to search the house; she
granted permission, told us that— I remember her waving her
arms, that we could look all over this place as long as there
was no one there that shot a police officer.

Q How wide is the vestibule?
A I don't recall, sir, just about that--
Q Did you go anywhere other than the living roan?
A 1 never went in the living roan, sir. As I

recall, 1 went in the dining room, sir.
Q The entrance is the living roan, isn't it?
A I think the living room is to the right. I

went in through the door and we proceeded back into the d:
room. That's as 1 remeber being in tne dining roan back
there. It's a very dim dining room.

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| Did she ask you for the privilege of making a\\
telephone call?\

A No, sir, she did not, sir.
Q \ Did she ever ask anyone in your presence?
A No, sir.
Q For the privilege of telephoning?
A No, sir. Before she left she said she was

cooking something and she wanted to turn the stove off. 1

remember that.
Q Was her son upstairs or down when you went in?
A The gentleman that was later identified as her

son was in the living room, to my right, sir, and the Sergeani
went to him and conversed with him.

Q Who went upstairs?
A A couple of officers, sir. 1 think they were

Sergeant Clifford. A couple of Northeastern District office}
were with him.

Q Who went downstairs?
A 1 don't know, sir.
Q Well, do you know that anybody did go downstair}
A Oh, yes, they all reported back to the dining

room area there and they said there was no one in the home,
in the house. \

Q Why couldn't you question Mrs. Sheppard in her
home and ask her about it?

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A I tried; I made every effort to question Mrs.
Sheppard in her home, sir. I explained to her over and over
again. 1 don't know why sue was unresponsive.

She wouldn't tell me who this other woman was.
She was in the cab, she wasn't in the cab, and she was in the
cab, and she said she was by herself, and then she said she
was with another person, and she wouldn't say whether it was
another woman, and 1 asked the identity; 1 pleaded with her.

Q Did anybody say to you that the conversation
they heard in the cab referred to the Veney brothers?

A No, sir.
Q There never was any mention of the Veney

brothers?
A Well, sir, our project at the time was the Veney

brothers, and the intention, of course, when we met Sergeant
Raymond at Gwynn Falls and Dukeland, there was the possibility
that the Veneys could have been in this home, and it was relayed
Information, of course.

Q When did you secure the arrest warrant?
A December 25, 1964, 9:30 a.m., Northern District^

Judge Jerome Robinson.
Q You carried it with you at all times?
A No, sir, I did not have it with me at all times,

no, sir. \
Q You'd never been in a position to serve the

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warrant if you'd captured the boys then in your search, would
you?

MR. SAUSE: If Your Honor please, that is a
conclusion of law which unfortunately is incorrect. The
arrest warrant does not have to be in the position of a police
officer under Maryland law.

THE COURT: Well, it's not limited to one
officer, as I understand the Maryland law, as to who may serve
it, if there is a warrant out.

And I don't see any use in arguing law with him.
MR. SAUSE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: He did not have it on him and he

swore it out, and the warrant was in existence, and he did
not have it with him.

Now, that's all the fact you want. Just let's
stick to the facts as we go along.
BY MR. HUGHES:

Q The arrest register states the charge to be
investigation, suspected of assault and shooting.

Now, that*8 the arrest register for Maggie
Sheppard. Assault and shooting whom?

MR. SAUSE: Now, if Your Honor please, I object
THE COURT: Again, he didn't make out the

arrest register. I think the witness has made it clear that
he told the Sergeant to take the matter up from there on with

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the lieutenant in Northwestern, that this didn't deal with th«i
Veney brothers but apparently dealt with the shooting of
Charis, which was a Northwestern District matter, and the
information here admittedly was given by Sergeant Raymond.

We have the arrest register. There's no ques
tion about it, and Sergeant Raymond admits he's the one who
gave the information to the desk sergeant.

MR. HUGHES: All right.
BY MR. HUGHES:

Q Now, you went on 50— did you say 51 or 57?
A 58.
Q 58?
A Yes.
Q And of those 58 how many was Lieutenant Glover

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with you on?
A I'd say approximately 30, 31, 32, something

like that, I think it was.
Q Now, this particular entrance into the home of

Mrs. Sheppard, it was about 12:30, was it not?
A I'd say that would be somewhat accurate, yes,

sir.
21

Q And she was held in the custody of the police
until 2:30; is that right?

A I was unaware how long she was in custody until
today. I didn't go to Northwestern, sir.

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Q Did you arrest or take anyone else to the statii
house in investigating these murders?

A Oh, yes, yes, sir. You mean the Veney invest!
tion? Oh, yes, a good many, a dozen or possibly more, frien
relatives, yes, sir.

Q Was there ever, to your knowledge, a search
warrant obtained?

MR. MURPHY: Now, we have stipulated that.
THE COURT: Everybody has admitted that there

wasn't. There is no use in going over admitted matters.
THE WITNESS: We swore out a warrant o£ arrest,

sir. There was no search warrant obtained, to my knowledge,
sir.
BY HR. HUGHES:

Q Were these people you referred to taken to the
station house for investigation, were they relatives?

A Well
MR. MURPHY: I object.
THE COURT: Were they what?
MR. HUGHES: Were they relatives.
THE COURT: He said there were some relatives

and friends, but that is not before the Court at this time.
MR. HUGHES: Your Honor, 1 think general

procedure, which is the thing that is complained of, whether
or not it can continue.

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were they arrested? You can aalc him that question.
You say you took them. The question is, these

people who went to the station house that you speak of, did
you arrest them or did they go voluntarily?

THE WITNESS: Some, sir, went voluntarily.
Some were held for investigation, and some were, I didn't
particularly, I don't recall offhand those I held for investi
tion at Northeastern. Sir, I don't know.

There were numbers of people that were held for
investigation regarding this shooting of the officer in the

Northeast District.
BY MR. HUGHES:

Q Did you receive any special instructions from

Commissioner Schmidt?
A Yes, sir, for tactics to be employed, public

safety, in this particular special unit. Is that what you
are referring to?

Q Are you talking about the particular circulars
THE COURT: No, he is talking about the

instructions given to this special unit, as I understand it.
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor, I'm sorry, sir
THE COURT: That's what I understood you were

answering, isn't it?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

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THE COURT: Well, did they voluntarily go or

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instructions given to the special unit.
BY MR. HUGHES:

Q But they were not in writing at that time, were
they?

A No, they were oral on Christmas morning at
Northeastern District.

Q Were you told to turn out every place that you
received a telephone call on?

A Not any place we received a call on. We were
told to pursue the investigation. Sir, we're investigators.
We're aware of our responsibility as police officers as is the
Conmissioner.

Q Has there ever been in the history of the Police
Department, to your knowledge, been a visitation of as many
homes?

MR. SAUSE: If Your Honor please, Lieutenant
Cadden is not the historiographer of the Police Department.
That's the Police Consnissloner.

MR. HUGHES: I asked of his knowledge.
MR. SAUSE: Well—
THE COURT: Objection overruled.
THE WITNESS: No, sir, not to my knowledge,

this much, but I remember the Proflll case, with the FBI we
turned-up scores of homes with federal agents in January of

THE COURT: I understood he was answering

55?

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'64 or '63 when an officer was killed during a bank robbery
in progress.

We turned-up a number of homes. Of course,
that does involve the Police Department in Baltimore and of
course federal officers.
BY MR. HUGHES:

Q Is it true or not that when a policeman is shot
there is any difference in the zealousness of the investiga
tion?

A There is a degree of violence in the perpetratoif
You must remember, sir, that an assailant who will shoot an
armed officer wouldn't hesitate if a general citizen is in hi^
way, and you have a problem there.

You have a violent creature on your hands.
Q Yes, but I'm talking about the police. Is the*

any vengeance in their effort to apprehend the killer?
A Ho, sir.

MR. MURPHY: I don't believe he can speak for
all policemen.

MR. SAUSE: He can speak for himself perhaps.
THE COURT: I think that's true.
The Court is familiar with the Profill case.

There were three white boys of pretty good families. One
was the son of a very well-known doctor, and they were
arraigned before me and sentenced to life for a bank robbery

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in which someone was killed.
So I am fairly familiar with all of the Profili

case except how many places they entered.
MR. HUGHES: Yes, that's what I want to get at.
THE COURT: And he says that they tumed-up

a considerable number of homes. 1 don't know whether you
remember that the FBI was in it because it was a federal
offense, the nature of the bank, a national bank.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I accompanied the agents on
several turn-ups.
BY MR. HUGHES:

Q Special agents?
A Several agents on the turn-ups.
Q Have you any idea how many turn-ups there were?
A No, sir, it's been over a year. I don't

remember whether that was January '62 or January '63.
THE COURT: Well, the case was here in the mid:

of last year.
THE WITNESS: Then it was—
THE COURT: Probably about a year ago that it

happened.
BY MR. HUGHES:

Q It was being investigated by the Baltimore City
Police Department?

A Yes, sir, with the federal officers.

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BY MR. HUGHES:
Q Did you have these surveillance squads then?
A Well, no, sir, when 1 was on the assignment we

wore, we had the protective gear and machine guns, protective
vests such as are supplied by the FBI in that particular
operation.

We didn't have scouting, oh, no, and we went to
the home, looked it over, of course, rode around it^.^rode
around in the area.

THE COURT: With the federal--

Q Yes.
A Rode around it, and looked it over.

Q How many times did you go there?
A Once.

Q Only once?
A We looked it over, as I recall it.

THE COURT: You can go ahead. It
to hear when these radiators are going and it takes about
twenty seconds or so, but go ahead.
BY MR. HUGHES: \

Q Your orders were to take these special cars?V
A

Q
A

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Q In a Veney house?
A Yes, sir.
Q And in every turn-up officers with vests and

shotguns went in the door first, is it not?
A On the turn-ups in which I participated, sir,

and that was the order, yes, sir.
Mow, there were other districts in which

officers that 1 am aware of that testified in this Court, I
think, that didn't use protective gear.

Q But consistently you used--
A Oh, yes, very definitely, yes, sir. I never

wore a vest, no.
Q Now, it has been testified here that some 30

to 43 minutes would elapse after the tip before there was any
knock at the door; is that correct?

A That's in some cases, and in others a-haIf-hour
or 50 minutes in some cases; it would depend upon the
distance you had to go, sir.

Q Yes.
Now, wasn't there ample time for your squad to

see a magistrate and secure either an arrest warrant or a
search warrant?

A Sir, I had a warrant. \
Q In this case?

A Yes, sir.

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A ̂ \ 8lr, I had a warrant. That warrant was issued.
Q I am talking about Mrs. Sheppard?

THE COURT: Well, let him answer. Let him
answer.

MR. HUGHES:__ All right.___________
THE WITNESS: I didn't know Mrs. Sheppard's

identity. We had to go to the house lacking her identity.
1 didn't know Mrs. Sheppard until she even told me who she
was, sir.

This was fresh information.
BY MR. HUGHES:

Q Did you inquire from anyone in the neighborhood
who lived in that house?

A No, sir.
THE COURT: I take it that the Court, if this

is the last witness, that the Court is certainly prepared to
make a finding right now that in no case that 1 have heard of
did they make any inquiry as to who lived in the house before
they approached the house.

Now, I have not heard any word that they ever
inquired of who lived in the house before they entered the
house and rang the bell or knocked on the door unless per
chance the informant had told them who it was, who lived
there.

But that they made no independent effort to find

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out, is the fact so far testified to in the case.

Now, you may be able to spoil it if you keep on
cross-examining him about it.

MEL. HUGHES:
Q Did you take Mrs. Sheppard's arm when she left

the house?\\
A Sir, I never touched Mrs. Sheppard; I've never\

touched Mr8 . Sheppard, no.
As 1 recall, when she was leaving she had her

arm in the gentleman's arm whom she said was her son.
Q Did they go in the station cruiser?
A They never went in the cruiser, sir. 1 told

them to place them in the police car.
Q Both of then?
A I told them to be placed in the police car, botfy

of them, yes, sir.
Q And you don't know what happened to them after

they got to the station house, you didn't free them any more?
A No, sir. No, sir, I didn't see them from the

time they took off from the 2 0 0 0, I think the address was
2000 block of North Monroe, and they started taking them the
one-way south, and I gave my Instructions to Sergeant Raymond
to pursue the matter as far as the Charis matter was concerned
to get the cab driver, to learn the Identity of the other
lady, whoever it was, and to straighten this matter out.

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\ Q Did you ever talk to the cab driver?
x A 1 have never talked to the cab driver personally

no, sir.
Q You didn't consider that important as a follow

up?
A Sergeant Raymond was instructed to get him.

He had the reports.
Q Well, did he ever report it to you?\

THE COURT: No, no, this witness dropped it,
and it became a Northwestern matter, and the Sergeant who
interviewed him reported to his own Captain because it became
a Northwestern matter after this witness found that the Veneys
weren't in the house.

MR. HUGHES: It's ray understanding—
THE COURT: I think it's quite clear from

everybody what happened.
MR. HUGHES: Your Honor, Lieutenant Cadden was

in charge of this matter, of this raid, and it would seem to
me that there had to be reports made to him, and that is why
I asked him that question.

THE COURT: Well, there wasn't, and it's
perfectly clear to the Court why there weren't.

Now, that doesn't affect whether the report was
made to the Captain at Northwestern or this man, doesn't seem
to me to be important. \

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This man had done what he conceived to be his

duty rightly or wrongly, and it was in somebody else's hands
from then on.
BY MR. HUGHES:

Q Did you make any distinction or differentiation
in neighborhoods before you searched?

A Distinctions were made, sir. 1 didn't, no, in
my particular work, no, sir, but I understand they went to
several white homes, four or five white homes in these turn
ups, sir.

I wasn't given those addresses. I don't know
the circumstances. It would be hearsay to me when they
returned. I remember one address they stated they went out
to Juneway, out off Belair Road. I don't know particularly
where. >(>3

\ 0 Was that the Jewish lady who called and
transcribed that telephone?

A I don't know.
\

Q And it was testified to by the Captain, Your
Honor?

THE COURT: That's right, but I don't think
that--Juneway is where? You say where?

THE WITNESS: It's out off Belair Road, and
it's near—

THE COURT: That's not a Jewish neighborhood

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ordinarily.
THE WITNESS: I don't know exactly. That

would be hearsay to me.

^ 931

BY MR. HUGHES:
Q Captain, let me ask you this—
A Yes, Lieutenant.
Q You're still searching for the Veney boys,

aren't you?
A

Yes, sir,Jmy procedure, my conduct, the officero

We are.
Now, if you got these telephone calls as you

did in the past, would you do the same thing, follow the same
procedure?

A
under me, to embarrass the Police Department, to jeopardize
any citizen, to insult, embarrass, or harass any citizen.

Q Then if you got three to five hundred calls you
would go on doing this?

MR. MURPHY: Your Honor, 1 object to this.
It seems to me that Mr. Hughes--

THE COURT: I must say I'm surprised at the
answer, but I think it's perfectly proper cross-examination.

MR. MURPHY: Well, I just thought that he was
going to concentrate on Monroe Street and that Mr. Nabrit
was going to cross-examine generally.

THE COURT: After he swept so far I don't

564

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think I'm going to let Mr. Nabrit cross-examine him on it.
I understood that Mr. Hughes was going to concentrate--

MR. HUGHES: Well, Your Honor, I'm going to
stay away from the other then, the other questions, the other
homes.

MR. NABRIT: Your Honor, I'm prepared to cross
examine the witness on the Allendale Street.

THE COURT: All right.
Well, on those other things then, but I don't

think he can be taken over the general ground twice.
MR. NABRIT: The other particular point.
THE COURT: The other particular point, about

the homes, of course, but I'm not going to let two people
cross-examine him on general matters.

MR. NABRIT: You Honor, I'll make every effort
not to avoid duplication.

THE COURT: Well, let me get this clear: The
order which was, are you still in charge of the special unit?

THE WITNESS: No, sir, the special unit has
been dissolved, sir.

THE COURT: Well, you say that if similar
information came to you—

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, similar sound informa
tion, yes, sir.

THE COURT: You mean that if you got an

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933
anonymous tip of the nature that you had of these, a purely
anonymous tip?

THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:

Consols8loner directed you,
search warrant?

Oh, no, sir.
That you would still do this?

Oh, no, sir.
Because I understood that the
if there was some doubt, to get a

THE WITNESS: Yes, something from the State's
Attorney.

THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:

And no search warrants were obtain
No.

— before?
No, sir.

You mean you would pay no—

Attention?
What, if any, regard would you pay

to the Commissioner's new order?
THE WITNESS: Well, sir, if I had sound

information, sir, I would discuss it with the Inspector and
my Captain and Inspector, sir, regarding this.

THE COURT: Well, you didn't do that before?
THE WITNESS: Oh, no, sir.
THE COURT: You were supposed to act on your

own responsibility before?

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THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, we acted in accordance
with our procedure for years in the Department since I have
been there, in the Department, sir.

934

THE COURT: Do you have the letter from the
Stated Attorney that they wrote?

MR. NABR1T: Your Honor, they haven't offered
this, and 1 have not read this, and there is testimony
regarding it.

\
THE COURT: Well, this is an affidavit by

Agent Messersmith, and the statement is that it was given on
information on a letter from him or sane information to him
with the approval of the State's Attorney.

Did you write that?
THE WITNESS: Mr. Moylan did that.
THE COURT: Who?
THE WITNESS: Mr. Moylan, the State's Attorney
THE COURT: All right. I think you had bette^

find out what was said. \

All right. Go ahead.
MR. HUGHES: I think I understood Your Honor

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correctly where he said that he will permit t'lr. Nabrit to

\cross-examine provided I do not go further into those general
cases? \X

THE COURT: Well, I said that with respect to
the other homes that were entered, Mr. Nabrit can, of course,

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935
examine than.\V

MR. HUGHES: Yes.
THE COURT: But as to general matters, matters

of general policy, I don't think that more than one counsel
VVshould cross-examine him.

1 don't know; your appearance is entered in the
case, isn't it?

MR. HUGHES: My appearance is, yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
Now, I think perhaps the best thing to do, as 1

don't think we can finish this today, and it is now gotten to
be a quarter-past-four, if Mr. Hughes is to do the general
cross-examination, 1 think he should be allowed to talk to Mr
Nabrit, to have some further conference.

I thought, and perhaps Mr. Nabrit thought that
he was going to limit himself to the Monroe Street. Now that
he's getting into the general, I think that if there is to be
one cross-examination on general, either we ought to let Mr.
Nabrit cross-examine on general or give Mr. Hughes an
opportunity to discuss it with Mr. Nabrit before he goes any
further, and I think Mr. Murphy, they might decide which way
they want to do it, and Mr. Murphy, I'm sure will be willing
to agree either way that you want to do it. But 1 think it
had better be cleared up so that we don't have going over the
same ground twice, and certainly Mr. Nabrit can go over all

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936
e other individual instances.

MR. NABRIT: This gets to be a specific problem
here where one wants to ask the witness a question about\conznunlcations procedure, and I didn't—\

THE COURT: You what?\\\
MR. NABRIT: 1 mean I just don't understand

what the limitations are?
THE COURT: There aren't going to be any; that

is simply what 1 am suggesting that you work it out and agree
and let Mr. Murphy agree.

MR. NABRIT: I understand.
THE COURT: If Mr. Murphy will agree with you

that you may examine as fully as you want if Mr. Hughes stops
now, that's all right. \

MR. NABRIT: Yea.
THE COURT: On the other hand, if Mr. Hughes

wants to continue a broad examination generally, then I think
he and you perhaps want to talk over before his cross-examina
tion is closed, and I want to give you an opportunity to do
that.

MR. NABRIT: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: So I take it that we will go ahead

with perhaps an hour tomorrow morning with Lieutenant Cadden
and then if you have any rebuttal we'll put it on then and
work out a schedule for argument.

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All right.
(thereupon, at 4:17 o'clock p.ra. the hearing

adjourned to January 28, 1965 at ten o'clock a.ra. )

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Lankford v. Schmidt Transcript of Proceedings Vol. 7

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