Monroe v. Madison County, TN Board of Education Appendix to Brief for Plaintiffs-Appellants

    I n’ the

I n M  Snivel uf A p p e a ls
Sixth Ciecuit 

No. 17,119

B renda K . Monroe, et al.,

Plaintiffs-Appellants,
—v.---

County B oard oe E ducation op Madison 
County, Tennessee, et al.,

Defendants-Appellees.

ON appeal prom the district court of the united states 
FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OP TENNESSEE, EASTERN DIVISION

APPENDIX TO BRIEF OF 
PLA1NT3 FFSAP PELL ANTS

Jack Greenberg 
James M. Nabrit, III 
Gerald A. Smith

10 Columbus Circle 
New York, New York 10019

A von N. W illiams, Jr.
Z. A lexander L ooby

McClellan-Looby Building 
Charlotte at Fourth 
Nashville, Tennessee

Attorneys for Plaintiffs-Appellants



I N D E X

Relevant Docket Entries .........    la

Plaintiffs’ Motion for Further Relief ___ __________ 2a

Defendants’ Reply to Motion for Further Relief .... 8a

Transcript of Hearing Held on June 25, 1965 ..............  12a

T e s t i m o n y  :

Plaintiffs’ Witnesses:

Glynn White—
D irect.....................................................................  18a
Cross ........................................      23a
Redirect .............................................. ..... ..... 30a, 32a
Recross ......... ..... .............................. ........ ..... 32a, 33a

Nathaniel Benson—
D irect..............  .................................................  35a
Cross  .............. ......... .................................... ..45a, 91a
Redirect.......... ...............................................    71a
Recross .................................................      71a

Gladys Wilson—
D irect...............................................      50a
Cross ...............................................................    55a
Redirect.................................................     71a
Recross ...........................................      71a

Cecil Shipp—
Direct ...................................................................  74a
Cross ...........................................        79a

PAGE



Walker D. Bond—
D irect...............................    81a
Cross ..................................................................  84a
Redirect............ ..................................................  87a
Recross ..............................................................  89a

R. B. Yann—
Direct ...........           94a
Cross ..................................................................  99a

Floyd Jackson—
Direct ...................................................   101a
Cross ...............................    103a
Redirect ............................................................  106a

Wilford Joyner McBride-—
Direct ................................................................  109a
Cross ..................................................................  112a

Willie D. Boone—
D irect.................................................................  114a
Cross ..................................................................  120a
Redirect ......         120a
Recross ...............    120a

M. T. Meriwether—
Direct ................................................................. 122a
Cross .................................      129a
Redirect ...............         139a

Janies A. Cook—
Direct .......      140a
Cross ................        143a
Redirect ..................................................    149a
Recross ..................          150a

ii

PAGE



XU

Defendants’ Witness:

J. L. W a lk er-
Direct ..................................................................  153a
Cross .................................................................  165a

Defendants’ Exhibit 1

Report of Survey on Number of Families Ad­
versely Affected by Schools Opening in August 193a

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 3

Total Enrollment of Pupils in Madison County, 
Tennessee 1965-1966 (With Racial Breakdown) 199a

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 6

Report Card of Dyka Benson ..............   202a

Memorandum Decision of District Court, Filed 
Aug. 2, 1965 .....................................    206a

Order of District Court, Filed Aug. 9, 1965 ...............  210a

Notice of A ppeal........ ......................................................  213a

Docket Entries ................................................................  214a

Clerk’s Certificate ..........................................................  216a

PAGE



Relevant Docket Entries

1965

4 - 14 Plaintiffs’ Motion for Further Relief against
defendants County Board of Education of Madison 
County and James L. Walker, Madison County 
School Supt.

5- 10 Defendants’ (County Board of Education & James
L. Walker, Madison Co. School Supt.) Reply 
to Motion for Further Relief.

8-2 Memorandum Decision of District Court relating to 
County Schools.

8 - 9 Order of District Court on Memorandum Decision
relating to County Schools.

9 - 7 Notice of Appeal from Judgment entered Aug. 9,
1965 relating to Madison County Schools.

1966

2-14 Filed Court Reporter’s Transcript of Proceedings.



2a

Plaintiffs’ Motion for Further Relief Against the Defend­
ants, Comity Board of Education of Madison County, 
Tennessee and James L. Walker, Madison County 
School Superintendent

Filed April 14, 1965

[Caption Omitted]

The plaintiffs, by their undersigned attorneys, move 
this Court for an order granting further relief in this ease 
against the defendants, County Board of Education of 
Madison County, Tennessee, and James L. Walker, Madi­
son County Superintendent. The further relief sought is 
an order directing said defendants to: (1) allow a more 
adequate length of time for registration of pupils in the 
Madison County Schools for the school year 1965-66; 
(2) assign teaching, supervisory and other professional 
and supporting personnel to schools in the Madison County 
School System on the basis of qualification and need and 
without regard to the race of the personnel or of the 
children in attendance; (3) eliminate all racial distinc­
tions, restrictions and discriminatory practices in teacher 
in-service training activities and other professional or 
school-related activities of teachers; (4) eliminate all ra­
cial restrictions and discriminatory practices from all 
school-sponsored or school-related curricular and extra­
curricular activities, including musical concerts and other 
cultural affairs; (5) eliminate racially discriminatory poli­
cies with respect to the provision and operation of the 
school transportation system; and (6) eliminate all other 
racial classifications from the operation of the Madison 
County public school system.



3a

In support of this motion, plaintiffs show unto this 
Court the following:

1. On 21 May 1964 this Court entered an order direct­
ing desegregation of grades 1 through 8 of the Madison 
County school system for the school year 1964-1965 and 
grades 9 through 12 for the school year 1965-1966; pro­
viding that with respect to desegregated grades pupils 
were to attend the school of their choice, for implementa­
tion of which a registration was to be held not later than 
June 20, 1964 and June 20 of each of the succeeding four 
years. Among other things the order provided that 
“ transportation facilities and school facilities, including 
cafeterias, as well as school facilities, including athletics, 
will be desegregated.” The Court’s order further provided: 
“ The application of plaintiffs for desegregation of faculties 
will be held under advisement pending the implementation 
of this plan.”

2. Defendants have mailed notices to parents or guard­
ians of school children advising that school registration 
for the school year 1965-1966 will be held on April 16, 
1965 between the hours of 8 :30 A. M. and 3 :00 P. M. and 
on April 17, 1965 between the hours of 8:30 A. M. and 
12:00 Noon, at each school (grades 1-12, inclusive) oper­
ated by the Madison County school system. Said registra­
tion period falls in the Easter vacation and provides an 
insufficient amount of time for parents or guardians to 
select the school in which they shall register their children 
and an insufficient amount of time for the actual registra­
tion of such children.

Plaintiffs’ Motion for Further Relief Against the
Defendants, County Board of Education of

Madison County, etc.



4 a

3. Defendants have done nothing since the Court’s order 
in this case to desegregate the teaching, supervisory and 
other professional and supporting personnel in the Madi­
son County school system, including bus drivers. Con­
tinued segregation of such personnel adversely affects the 
choice available to Negro and white pupils under the 
Court’s order by retaining an aspect of racial segregation 
and designation in the operation of individual schools 
in the school system. The retention of such racial designa­
tion and discrimination in faculty and personnel assign­
ment also affects the education received in the school 
system and thereby deprives these plaintiffs and the class 
they represent of due process of law and equal protection 
of the law secured by the Fourteenth Amendment to the 
Constitution of the United States.

4. Defendants continue to retain racial distinctions in 
activities related to faculty training and professional 
achievement. For instance, during the week of 4 April 
1965 defendants released all white teachers assigned to 
formerly white schools in the school system to attend a 
meeting of the Tennessee Education Association in Nash­
ville, Tennessee, allowing them their regular pay for this 
professional activity, but denied all Negro teachers as­
signed to the formerly Negro schools the privilege of 
attending said meeting, and required them to perform 
their regular school duties during those days.

5. Defendants continue to sponsor or allow the schools 
to participate in curricular and extra-curricular activities 
on a racially discriminatory basis. For instance, on 11

Plaintiffs’ Motion for Further Relief Against the
Defendants, County Board of Education of

Madison County, etc.



5a

February 1965 the Jackson Symphony Orchestra gave a 
young people’s concert for certain elementary grades in 
the Jackson City Schools and the Madison County Schools. 
Only the children attending formerly white schools were 
permitted to attend these concerts. Defendants excluded 
nearly a third of the children in the Madison County 
school system. All of those excluded were Negro children 
attending all Negro schools staffed by all Negro faculties.

6. Defendants continue to assign white bus drivers to 
buses serving formerly white schools and Negro bus drivers 
to buses serving formerly Negro schools. Also, defendants 
continue to discriminate racially in the laying out, exten- 
tion or alteration of routes necessitated to permit trans­
portation of Negro school children to and from formerly 
white schools when selected for attendance by them.

W herefore, plaintiffs pray for an order directing defen­
dants t o :

1. Send additional notices to all parents or guardians 
of children in the Madison County school system allowing 
them at least an additional month in which to select the 
school of their choice for the 1965-1966 school year, and 
thereafter allowing at least three full days for the reg­
istration of said children at the individual schools;

2. Assign teaching, supervisory and other professional 
and supporting personnel to schools in the Madison County 
school system on the basis of qualification and need and 
without regard to the race or color of the personnel as­
signed or of the children in attendance;

Plaintiff s’ Motion for Further Relief Against the
Defendants, County Board of Education of

Madison County, etc.



6a

3. Eliminate all racial discrimination and racial distinc­
tions as to any teacher in-service training or other pro­
fessional or school-related activities performed by teachers 
in the school system, or under the direct or indirect spon­
sorship or support of the school system;

4. Eliminate all racial restrictions, distinctions, segre­
gation and discriminatory practices from all school-spon­
sored curricular and extra-curricular activities, including 
musical concerts and other cultural activities conducted 
for school children under the direct or indirect auspices 
of or with the cooperation of the Madison County school 
system;

5. Assign bus drivers without regard to the race or 
color of the driver or of the pupils riding said buses and 
without regard to the former racial character of the school 
or schools served by said buses; and eliminate all racially 
discriminatory policies and practices with respect to the 
laying out, extension or alteration of bus routes and with 
regard to the provision of transportation of children to 
the school or schools selected by them for attendance; 
and

6. Eliminate all other racial classification, distinctions 
and practices from the operation of the Madison County 
public school system.

Plaintiffs further pray that this Court set this motion 
for immediate hearing, to the end that further relief may

Plaintiffs’ Motion for Further Relief Against the
Defendants, County Board of Education of

Madison County, etc.



7a

be effective for the school year commencing in September, 
1965.

Z. A lexander L ooby 
Avon N. W illiams, Jr.

327 Charlotte Avenue 
Nashville, Tennessee 37201

J ack Greenberg 
Derrick A. B ell, J r.

10 Columbus Circle 
Suite 2030
New York, New York 10019

Plaintiffs’ Motion for Further Relief Against the
Defendants, County Board of Education of

Madison County, etc.

By ...................................................
A von N. W illiams, Jr.

Attorneys for Plaintiffs.



8a

Filed May 10, 1965

Defendants’ Reply to Motion for Further Relief

[Caption Omitted]

Defendants, County Board of Education of Madison 
County, Tennessee, and James L. Walker, Madison County 
Superintendent, for reply or answer to the motion for 
further relief filed in this cause by plaintiffs, say:

1. Defendants admit the averments in support of said 
motion set forth in Paragraph 1.

2. Defendants admit the averments set forth in Para­
graph 2 except that they deny that the pupil registration 
period for the school year 1965-1966 provided “an insuffi­
cient amount of time for parents or guardians to select 
the school in which they shall register their children and 
an insufficient amount of time for the actual registration 
of such children.” Defendants would show that the reg­
istration for said school year has already been held, that 
the registration period lasted for 1% days, that this was 
a half day longer than the normal registration period and 
provided ample time for the actual registration of pupils, 
that the registration was held on April 16 and 17, 1965, 
that registration notices were mailed to parents or guard­
ians on March 31, that a copy of the form of the registra­
tion notice was mailed to counsel for plaintiffs on March 
12, that no objection thereto was made by plaintiffs or 
their counsel until on or about April 14 when the motion 
for additional relief was filed herein, that the desegrega­
tion plan instituted by defendants pursuant to order of 
this Court has been a matter of common knowledge since



9a

May, 1964, and that parents and guardians have had more 
than ample time in which to select the school of their 
choice. Defendants would further show that for the school 
year 1965-1966, 68 Negro students have registered in for­
merly white elementary schools and 24 Negro students in 
formerly white high schools.

3. Defendants admit that there has been no desegrega­
tion of faculties but deny that this adversely affects or 
deprives plaintiffs of their constitutional rights. Defen­
dants deny the other averments of Paragraph 3, except 
as hereinafter indicated. Defendants would show that they 
employ only two supervisors of instruction and that one 
supervisor is white and the other Negro; and defendants 
would further show that Negro and white children are 
being transported to school in the same school buses but 
that, for disciplinary reasons, the driver of each bus is 
of the same race as that of the majority of the students 
being transported.

4. Defendants deny that they continue to maintain racial 
distinctions in activities related to faculty training and 
professional achievement. Defendants would show that the 
Negro teachers in the county school system do not belong 
to the Tennessee Education Association and were, there­
fore, not released for the purpose of attending the April 9, 
1965, Nashville meeting of said association; but defendants 
would further show that the Negro teachers belong to a 
similar association known as the Tennessee Education 
Congress, that a meeting of this latter association was 
held on the same date in the same city, that all Madison 
County schools were closed on April 9, 1965, and that 
the Negro teachers were at liberty to attend the meeting

Defendants’ Reply to Motion for Further Relief



10a

of the Tennessee Education Congress if they wished to 
do so.

5. Defendants deny that they “continue to sponsor or 
allow the schools to participate in curricular and extra­
curricular activities on a racially discriminatory basis.” 
Defendants admit, however, the Jackson Symphony Or­
chestra incident referred to in Paragraph 5 but would 
show that this was an extra-curricular activity, that they 
had no control over the invitations extended by the spon­
sor of this concert, and that invitations were extended 
only to students in grades five and six of formerly white 
schools. Defendants are advised that this was because 
of the limited seating capacity and would show that both 
Negro and white fifth and sixth grade students attended 
this concert.

6. Defendants admit that they continue to assign white 
bus drivers to buses serving formerly white schools and 
Negro bus drivers to buses serving formerly Negro schools, 
but defendants would show that this is very essential, 
particularly during this transitional period, to the main­
tenance of order and discipline on the buses, and defen­
dants deny that this practice adversely affects or deprives 
plaintiffs of their constitutional rights. Defendants deny 
that they have discriminated racially in the laying out, 
extension or alteration of bus routes, and would show 
that on several occasions they have extended bus routes 
solely for the purpose of enabling Negro students to attend 
formerly white schools.

/ s /  J ack Manheik, Sr.
J ack Manhein, Sr.
Attorney for named Defendants 
First National Bank Building 
Jackson, Tennessee

Defendants’ Reply to Motion for Further Relief



11a

Certificate of Service

I certify that I served the foregoing reply or answer on 
Emmett J. Ballard and Avon N. Williams, Jr., Esqs., 
attorneys for plaintiffs, by depositing on the 10 day of 
May, 1965, two true copies thereof in the U. S. Mail, 
postage prepaid, in envelopes addressed respectively to 
each of said attorneys at their respective addresses as 
set out in the complaint, which addresses are the last 
addresses of said attorneys known to me.

/ s /  J ack Manhein, Sr.
J ack Manhein, Sr.
Attorney for named Defendants 
First National Bank Building 
Jackson, Tennessee



12a

Transcript of Hearing Held on June 25, 1965

— 390—

The trial of this case was resumed with relation to the 
Board of Commissioners for Madison County, on this date, 
Friday, June 25th, 1965, at 9:30 o’clock, a. m., when and 
where evidence was introduced and proceedings had as 
follows:

The Court: Mr. Manhein, are you ready in the 
motion?

Mr. Manhein: Yes, sir.
The Court: I believe we had better get Mr. W il­

liams so we can get going here.
This is No. 1327, Monroe against the Board of Edu­

cation of Madison County. We have heretofore held 
a pre-trial conference in connection with the Motion 
of the plaintiffs for additional relief, and we set 
the motion for hearing today. Now, what were the 
main issues that were generally agreed at the pre­
trial conference to he taken up in this case? What 
do you concede to be the main issues, Mr. Williams?

Mr. Williams: May it please the Court, one issue— 
the issue of registration time was resolved in the

- 3 9 1 -
pre-trial conference by agreement of the parties 
before the Court; that is this matter of registration 
time. It was agreed that the plaintiffs would be 
allowed until July the 6th, and on that date that all 
children who had not heretofore requested—that all 
children who desire to request admission to another 
school could do so at the office of the Superintendent, 
if I am correct, all children who were not satisfied 
with the registrations they made during the month



13a

of April could register at the school of their choice 
on July 6th at the Superintendent’s office.

The Court: Is that your understanding, Mr. Man­
hein?

Mr. Manhein: Yes, sir, if I understood Mr. W il­
liams. There will simply be a single day’s registra­
tion, from 9:00 to 12:00, I believe was agreed, and 
1 :00 to 5 :00 on July the 6th.

The Court: All right, sir.
Mr. Williams: And as I understood it, in the 

future, although the Court’s order specified ten days
—3 9 2 -

notice to the parents, the defendants agreed that 
thirty days notice would be afforded of registration.

Mr. Manhein: We have no objection to that, Your 
Honor. I assume there will be an order to that 
effect. If not, I may forget it next year.

The Court: All right. We will put that in any 
order we enter on this motion. We give thirty days 
notice of registration date.

Mr. Williams: Yes, sir.
The Court: All right. Now, what?
Mr. Williams: If the Court please, there was 

some question about the number of days allowed 
for registration in the pre-trial conference. While 
I don’t think it is a major issue—

The Court: (Interposing) How much time do 
you allow?

Mr. Manhein: Your Honor, a day and a half. We 
customarily register a single day’s time, or we al­
lowed a day and a half.

Proceedings



14a

Proceedings

— 393—

Mr. Williams: I think we requested, if I recall 
correctly, Your Honor, three days, two or three days.

Mr. Manhein: Well, Your Honor, it seems to me 
there is no need to require us to devote three days 
to it unless it is necessary.

The Court: Well, that will be a matter for deter­
mination by the Court. If plaintiffs want to offer 
proof that a day and a half is not sufficient, why, of 
course, they are entitled to do so, but it is not up 
to the School Board to suit the convenience of all 
concerned if they allow reasonable time and give 
adequate notice and there is no problem in processing 
the registrations and the time to be allowed, then 
certainly that would meet the constitutional test.

Mr. Williams: If the Court please, I don’t believe 
that is going to be a major problem.

The Court: All right, sir.
Mr. Williams: Now, if Your Honor please, the 

next issue which was not resolved and remains un­
resolved was the issue of faculty desegregation.

The Court: All right, sir.
— 394—

Mr. Williams: And then there was an issue that 
sort of goes along with that, or perhaps not—maybe 
it goes along—there was an issue of faculty training 
and professional activities, and then there was an 
issue of extra-curricular activities. Now, it may be 
that both of those issues are more properly allied 
together.

The Court: Faculty training and professional 
activities and what else?



15a

Mr. Williams: And the next issue would be extra­
curricular activities.

The Court: All right. What else do we have?
Mr. Williams: There was an issue of white bus 

drivers and discrimination in bus routes. The issue 
of white bus drivers may or may not—the Court may 
or may not consider that as being an issue that the 
Court will hear today. The Court expressed itself 
in no uncertain terms as feeling that it was bound 
by the decision in the Mapp case in the Sixth Cir­
cuit. However, if the Court please, the defendants 
admit that they are assigning bus drivers to buses

— 395—
on the basis of a majority of students riding the 
particular bus. We feel that that is clear discrimina­
tion.

The Court: Well, if you can explain to the Court 
how the Court could possibly interpret the Mapp case 
any other way than the way the Court interpreted 
it, then we would be glad to entertain your conten­
tion, but as we understood Judge O’Sullivan’s opinion 
in the Mapp case, he said clearly that while in these 
class actions filed by students and their parents, 
they could maintain a claim to desegregation of 
faculties as part of their claim to an abolition of 
discrimination in the schools, but he clearly held, 
as we understood the opinion, that you can’t main­
tain such a claim with respect to supervisory person­
nel and housekeeping personnel and that type of 
thing.

Mr. Williams: Your Honor is correct on that. 
However, the Fourth Circuit, I believe, has held, 
and there are some other circuits which have held,

Proceedings



16a

certainly the Fifth Circuit, to the contrary, and at
—3 9 6 -

least one District Judge here in Tennessee. It may 
be that the matter was not brought to his attention 
at the time. I don’t think we did bring the matter 
to Judge Miller’s attention.

The Court: I  believe that’s the Sloane case.
Mr. Williams: Yes; in that case he included bus 

drivers.
The Court: I notice he did that, and we wondered 

since you are supposed to follow the law of your 
Circuit, if the Circuit Court of Appeals has spoken, 
we wondered how he did that, and we surmised that 
that point was not brought to his attention.

Mr. Williams: My recollection is that it was not, 
if Your Honor please.

I would submit, if Your Honor please, that the 
Court permit us—I would ask the Court to permit 
us to offer proof on this question in the event that 
we should decide to reserve our rights, in the event 
that we should decide to attempt to get a more

—397—
favorable decision out of the Sixth Circuit.

The Court: Well, you are entitled to put on your 
proof and make your report. You are certainly en­
titled to do that.

Mr. Williams: Now, if Your Honor please, of 
course we have an issue of discrimination with re­
gard to bus routes. Now, frankly, whether that 
exists or continues to exist, I am not fully apprized 
this morning, and as Your Honor saw, our clients 
were late in getting here. It did exist last year. It 
may not exist now.

Proceedings



17a

The Court: You are going to investigate that on 
the witness stand, is that right I

Mr. Williams: Perhaps at recess time.
Now, if Your Honor please, a very important issue 

which the Court held that we could raise was the 
issue of the split season. The Court specifically 
directed both sides to bring such proof as they might 
desire on the question of the elimination of the split 
season.

Mr. Manhein: In that connection, Your Honor, 
there has been no formal amendment of the motion.

—398—
I don’t know whether counsel contemplates that or 
not, but I have been expecting it. I  just call that 
to the Court’s attention. I don’t make any issue of 
it.

The Court: You are correct in stating that the 
split season issue was not raised in the motion for 
further relief. But Mr. Williams did say in the pre­
trial conference that was a side issue and it was 
discussed, and it comes as no surprise to the de­
fendants, so I think we could go ahead and hear it, 
whether or not it was actually included.

Mr. Williams: I f  it please the Court, that issue 
was raised in the original specifications.

The Court: Yes. He is not denying that. He 
pointed out that it was not raised in the motion for 
further relief, but he is not contesting your right to 
have it litigated at this time, because it was men­
tioned at the pre-trial conference, and he is not sur­
prised by it.

Proceedings



18a

Mr. Williams: I believe that constitutes a state-
—399—

ment of the issues, Your Honor.
The Court: Do you see any other issues, Mr. Man- 

hein?
Mr. Manhein: Your Honor, I don’t see any other 

issues, but I had thought that we had resolved that 
faculty in-service training issue, if there is an issue, 
at the pre-trial conference. Your Honor will recall 
that at the conference we took the position we had 
no objection to any order with respect to faculty 
in-service training, as long as we knew just exactly 
what we could do and could not do. So I don’t know 
whether that’s an issue or not.

The Court: We didn’t carry away the feeling from 
the pre-trial conference there was any hot issue on 
that, to say the least, but if Mr. Williams wants to 
offer some proof as to what is being done, he is 
entitled to do that, and it is up to him how strongly 
he wants to urge it as a ground for relief.

All right, Mr. Williams, you may put on your 
proof.

—400—
Mr. Williams: Call Mr. White.

Glynn White—for Plaintiffs—Direct

Glynn W hite, the said witness, having been first duly 
sworn, testified as follow s:

Dir ext Examination by Mr. Williams:

Q. State your name, please. A. Glynn White.
Q. What is your age? A. Thirty-seven.
Q. Where do you live! A. Route 1, Denmark.



19a

Q. Is that Madison County, Tennessee? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you lived in Madison County? A. All 

my life.
Q. What is your occupation? A. Farmer.
Q. How many school children do you have? A. Four.
Q. Are they enrolled in the schools of Madison County?

—401—
A. Three of them is.

Q. In what school? A. Two of them at Huntersville 
Elementary.

Q. What are their names? A. Beverly White and Ro­
lando White.

Q. Where is the other one enrolled? A. North Side 
High School; Glenda White.

Q. I believe Glenda is one of the plaintiffs in this case? 
A. That’s right.

Q. And you are one of the plaintiffs in this case? A. 
Yes.

Q. Now, Mr. White, I believe both Huntersville and 
North Side are formerly schools that have been deseg­
regated? A. Yes.

Q. And your children have been attending there under 
the order of this Court? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, Mr. White, which do you believe would be the 
better situation for your children, a school where the teach­
ers are all white, or a school where the teachers are deseg­
regated and mixed as are the students? A. I believe the

—4 0 2 -
schools that would be desegregated would be the most ef­
ficient for the students.

Q. You mean by that a school desegregated as to faculty 
as well as students? A. Yes.

Glynn White—for Plaintiffs—Direct



20a

Q. Do you have any reason for that belief? A. Well, 
one reason, as they grow, they get better relations, socialize 
together and communication.

Q. You believe that they get that better where the teach­
ers are desegregated than they do where the teachers are 
all-white, is that right? A. Yes.

Q. Now, you recall last year when this desegregation 
plan went into effect, all children were required to select 
the school that they wanted to attend, you remember that, 
do you, in the county school system? A. That’s right.

Q. State whether or not all the white children in Madison 
County selected and went back to white schools, is that 
true? A. That’s right.

Q. And I believe you are aware that there were very
—403—

few negroes who elected to go to the white schools? A. 
Yes, sir.

Q. You are aware of that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you feel that the apparent reluctance of negroes 

to select white schools is related in any way to the fact that 
the teachers and principals in those schools were all white? 
A. Yes, sir, I do.

Q. What is the relation? A. Well, the parents, I feel 
like they are a little reluctant because—-because of the resi­
dences, the places that they live, have a part to do with 
the reason why they are reluctant to register their children 
in all-white schools.

Q. Do you feel like the fact that they are all-white fac­
ulties, all-white teachers—

Mr. Manhein: Your Honor, we object to this tes­
timony as to this man’s feelings. Now, he can testify

Glynn White—for Plaintiffs—Direct



21a

to facts, but counsel is asking Mm about Ms general 
feelings on the subject.

— 404—

The Court: Well, he can testify about what his 
attitudes are, because that is one of the facts in the 
case.

Mr. Manhein: But he is talking about the general 
feeling in the community, as I understood, his state­
ment as to what the general feeling in the community 
is.

Mr. Williams: I asked him whether he felt that 
the all-white faculties had anything at all to do with 
the fact of there not being any negro children to se­
lect all-white schools.

The Court: Wouldn’t that be hearsay, because he 
would have to base that on what other people told 
him. He can testify as to how it may or may not 
have influenced him, but for him to make a statement 
as to how other people felt would, of necessity, be 
hearsay, wouldn’t it!

Mr. Williams: Well, if the Court please, I would 
suppose, yes, in all intellectual honesty, except, as I 
said the last time before this Court, these Courts 
have heard a lot of hearsay in these cases.

— 405—

Q. Mr. White, you say you have lived in this county 
all your life? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you are familiar with this split season, this let­
ting off children, letting them out to attend the harvest! 
A. Yes, sir.

Q. As a parent of negro school children and a plaintiff 
in this case, do you feel that that is good, that that is edu­

Glynn White—for Plaintiffs—Direct



22a

cationally sound for the children, to start them to school 
in July and then let them out for harvest season and split 
the season like that? A. No, I do not.

Mr. Manhein: We object on the ground that that 
fact is stipulated, that it is not educationally sound.

The Court: I don’t believe the School Board makes 
any contest on that issue.

Mr. Williams: Fine.

Q. Now, Mr. White, are you familiar with the general 
economic condition of negro farmers in Madison County? 
A. In part, yes, sir.

Q. Well, what do you mean by in part? A. Well, I
— 406—

would say about seventy-five percent of them.
Q. Now, based on that knowledge of approximately sev­

enty-five—and is that personal day-to-day daily knowledge 
that you have gained over your entire lifetime since you 
have lived up there? A. That’s right.

Q. Based on that personal knowledge, is it your opinion 
that there is any economic necessity among negro farmers 
in Madison County for this split season to prevail, to con­
tinue this split season? Do you feel that there is any eco­
nomic necessity for it? A. No, I do not.

Q. Mr. White, where the School Board has a choice plan 
like this, and children have to select the place where they 
go to school and have to go down and have a pre-school 
registration in the spring—you are familiar with that, 
aren’t you? A. Yes.

Q. How many days, in your opinion, are required in a 
large county like Madison County for the parents and 
children to actually get their children over to the schools

Glynn White—for Plaintiffs—Direct



23a

Glynn White—for Plaintiffs—Direct

—407—
and effect this registration in such a manner that they all 
have a fair chance at it? How many days do you think the 
Board should allow for registration! A. I would think 
they should allow at least five days for registration.

Q. Madison County is kind of a large county area-wise, 
is it not? A. Yes, that’s right.

Q. State whether or not there are people who get con­
fused, who get the wrong information about the day and 
that sort of thing? A. Well, the time that they allow this 
spring for registration, which my own opinion, I do think 
that it was not enough time, because people do get con­
fused. The children want to go to these previous schools, 
and then they probably meet somebody, and they talk them 
out of it, and I think they should have at least four or five 
days to concentrate over the matter.

Q. Now, one more thing I want to ask you, Mr. White. 
Where all the formerly white schools, the schools that used 
to be white schools continue to have all-white teachers and 
principals and all the negro schools, formerly negro schools,

- 4 0 8 -
have all-negro teachers and principals, does that help to 
keep those schools identified as negro and white schools 
in your mind? A. I think so.

Q. It does? A. I think so.
Q. Would it help to eliminate this racial designation of 

these schools if they desegregated the teachers and mixed 
the teachers as well as the students in these schools? A. 
Yes, sir, I think so.

Q. You could, then, forget that East High used to be a 
negro school, perhaps, is that right? A. That’s right.



24a

Glynn White—for Plaintiffs—Cross 

Mr. Williams: You may cross-examine.

Cross-Examination by Mr. Manhein:

Q. What business did you say that you were in? A. 
Farming.

Q. You haven’t had any experience in school adminis­
tration, have you? A. No, I haven’t.

—409—
Q. None of any kind? A. No, I haven’t.
Q. Have you ever been a teacher? A. No.
Q. Have you ever been in any way identified with any 

schools or school system? A. No, I have not.
Q. Now, tell me again why you think that we need to 

take five days in Madison County to register pupils? A. 
The reason is because Madison County has quite a few 
students. I notice it was up in the thousands to register 
this time, and it seems to me that it’s impossible to register 
them in a day and a half with so many thousand students.

Q. Do you know how long it has been taking for the last 
twenty years to register the students in Madison County, 
how many days? A. Well, not exactly, but I do think that 
it has been more than a day and a half.

Q. Do you know how long we took to register students 
this year? A. A  day and a half.

—410—
Q. Do you know how long we took last year? A. No, I 

do not.
Q. Or the year before? A. No, I do not.
Q. Well, do you know whether there was any difficulty 

involved in registering these students in a day and a half 
time this year? A. I know this year it was difficult be­



25a

cause some of the students that had planned to register, 
they happened to be away at that time, and couldn’t make 
it back.

Q. You mean some of them were out of town at that 
time! A. Yes.

Q. You really don’t know, or really don’t have the slight­
est conception of how much time really is needed to register 
our pupils? A. I believe you need more than a day and 
a half.

Q. And your only reason for it is that somebody might 
be out of town? A. That’s not the only reason, but just as 
I stated before, probably some of the parents would like to 
think of the situation before they jump right into it.

Q. Well, let’s assume that they had thirty days to think
- 4 1 1 -

over what school they wanted to register in or have their 
children register in, would that be ample? A. Well, I 
would think so, if they had thirty days to think over it.

Q. I f  they had thirty days to think over it, in your 
opinion, would a day and a half be enough time to actually 
conduct the registration of those students? A. It’s a pos­
sibility, if they had time to think over it.

The Court: Let me ask you this: Were you 
around any of the schools on the last registration 
days?

The Witness: Yes, sir, I was.
The Court: Well, was there any mechanical diffi­

culty in handling those who were there to register? 
Were there any turned away because they couldn’t 
put them on the books?

The Witness: The school that I register my
daughter to, it was no difficulty there.

Glynn White—for Plaintiffs—Cross



26a

The Court: Do you know of any difficulty of 
the people that came to register that had any 
trouble actually being registered? Were the lines

—412—
too long so that when they got to the end of the 
day there were people standing in line waiting to 
register ?

The Witness: Personally, I don’t know of that.
The Court: Isn’t what you are really saying is 

that the problem is that they didn’t actually get 
the word about when the registration was going 
to be soon enough, rather than the time being ac­
tually allotted for registration? Isn’t that what you 
are saying?

The Witness: Judge, Your Honor, I notice that 
several say they would have registered, but the 
time was too short.

The Court: You mean at which they got the notice 
of the registration?

The Witness: Yes, sir.
The Court: We are talking about two different 

things here. Now, what Mr. Williams is seeking 
to prove by you is a day and a half is simply not 
enough time, assuming you know when that is going 
to be—assuming there is plenty of notice that when 
that day and a half is going to be, that that’s just

—413—
not enough time to handle the people that come 
there to register. Now, is it your contention that 
a day and a half is not enough time?

The Witness: That’s my statement.
The Court: And what do you base it on ?

Glynn White—for Plaintiffs—Cross



27a

The Witness: The population of the students in 
Madison County.

The Court: But you don’t know of any actual 
example of anyone being prevented from register­
ing who showed up, because there were too many 
people there on that day?

The Witness: No, I don’t.
The Court: You are basing it on the number of 

people in Madison County, the number of students 
in the school system?

The Witness : Yes, sir.
The Court: All right, sir.

By Mr. Manhein:

Q. Now, you have expressed the opinion that there was 
no economic necessity in Madison County for the split 
school season that we have had there for a good many 
years. What do you base that opinion on? A. Well, I

—414—
just don’t think that there has been an economic purpose, 
because people do not have to stop their children out of 
school to pick the cotton.

Q. Isn’t it true that a large number of families, of 
negro families in Madison County do use their children 
to pick cotton during the harvest season? A. At present 
that is true.

Q. Is it true? A. At present.
Q. Well, don’t you think that’s necessary from the 

standpoint of these families themselves to have their 
children pick cotton and help them in that fashion? A. 
No, sir, I do not.

Q. Why not? A. Because I think that the children 
should, the parents should not deprive their children of

Glynn White—for Plaintiffs—Cross



28a

an education to pick cotton. I do feel like the education 
is more benefit that cotton picking.

Q. But that wasn’t the question that was asked you. 
The question was asked you whether or not you thought it 
was an economic necessity. I f you didn’t understand the 
question, I will ask it again. Do you think from an eco­
nomic standpoint, from the standpoint of the financial

—4 1 5 -
affairs, earnings and what-not of these families, that it 
is necessary! A. No, sir, I do not.

Q. Who is going to pick the cotton for them! A. Well, 
the parents can pick the cotton, or either mechanical 
pickers.

Q. Most of these families that we are talking about 
can’t hire mechanical pickers to come in there and pick 
their cotton! A. Yes, sir, it’s cheaper than hand picking.

Q. So you think that these sharecroppers on these little 
farms would be able to hire somebody to come in there 
with a cotton picker to pick their cotton! A. I do so, 
and if it’s too small, the parents can harvest it them­
selves.

Q. Do you know anything about cotton picking! A. Yes, 
sir.

Q. Can you utilize those big machines on these little 
farms that we are talking about! A. Well, I  see them 
on small farms.

Q. Is there any limitation so far as the terrain is 
concerned! Can they use those machines in hilly fields 
as well as flat, or is there any problem there! A. Well,

- 4 1 6 -
due to the weather you cannot pick cotton neither way.

Q. How many children would you say we have in Madi­
son County whose children pick cotton at harvest time!

Glynn White—for Plaintiffs—Cross



29a

A. Well, I  would say about—approximately, I guess, about 
fifty percent.

Q. Of the families? A. Yes.
Q. Well, would you give us an estimate of the number 

of families, so that fifty percent will mean more to the 
Court? A. The number of families—I don’t believe I 
could give that.

Q. Well, you don’t have any rough idea as to the number 
of families that would be involved? A. No, sir, I do not.

Q. But you think about half of the negro farm families 
do have their children pick cotton at harvest time? A. 
Yes.

Q. Now, you have three children, I believe you said? 
A. I have four; but three in the Madison County School 
System.

—417—
Q. And where did you say they were going to school? 

A. One will be going to North Side.
Q. That’s a formerly white high school, is it not? A. 

That’s right. And the other two will be going to Hunters­
ville.

Q. That is also a formerly white elementary school? 
A. That’s right.

Q. Now, your fourth child, is he or she not of school 
ag’e? A. She is school age, but she goes to college.

Q. So that all three of your children are going to for­
merly white schools? A. That’s right.

Q. Now, when you enrolled those children in those 
schools, you knew that they had a white faculty, did you 
not?

Glynn. White—-for Plaintiffs—Cross

Mr. Williams: That’s objected to, if Your Honor 
please; that has no probative value whatsoever.



30a

The Court: It does have probative value. It’s for 
the Court to say how much weight to give it.

—418—
Mr. Williams: Well, I further object on the ground 

it is incompetent and irrelevant.
The Court: He has testified that negro parents 

are reluctant to send their children to a school that 
has an all-white faculty. Now, it is certainly relevant 
on cross-examination for counsel for the School 
Board to ask him if he didn’t do exactly that, and 
why he did it.

Mr. Williams: I submit it is not relevant, because 
defendants admit and stipulate that they are oper­
ating the school system with all white and all negro 
faculties.

The Court: Objection overruled.

By Mr. Manhein:

Q. You knew when you had your children enrolled at 
their respective schools, that both those schools had all- 
white faculties, did you not? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, now, that didn’t deter you, or make you reluctant 
to send your children to those schools, did it? A. No, it 
did not.

Q. In fact, it rather encouraged you to send them to
—419—

those schools? A. Well, I just prefer sending them there.
Q. You thought they would get a better education, or 

what was your reason? A. Not that the white teacher 
know any more than colored teacher, but since it was in a 
segregated system, I knew that the Board did not give 
equal facilities as they did in the colored schools.

Glynn White—for Plaintiffs—Cross



31a

Q. You mean physical things like the school building 
and the equipment and that sort of thing? A. That’s 
right.

Q. Well, in any event, you did not hesitate to send 
your children to schools where they had all-white faculties 
—that didn’t bother you at all? A. No, it did not.

Mr. Manhein: That is all.

Glynn White—for Plaintiffs—Redirect

Redirect Examination by Mr. Williams:

Q. Mr. White, I believe when you joined in this lawsuit, 
you knew that in the complaint we were asking for mixed 
faculties in the schools, did you not? A. I did so.

—420—
Q. And, in spite of the fact that you sent your child, your 

children to schools with all-white faculties, I believe you 
testified that you felt your child could get a better educa­
tion with mixed faculties, is that correct? A. That’s right.

The Court: Why do you say that, Mr. White?
The Witness: Because, as I stated, Judge, Your 

Honor, as they grow up, they have better communi­
cation—

The Court: How do you mean better communica­
tion?

The Witness: I mean socializing together, the 
white teachers and the negro teachers.

The Court: We are not talking about the effect on 
the teachers. We are talking about the effect on the 
school children. Now, you said your children before 
this lawsuit had gone to all-negro schools, negro 
students and faculty, and then after this Court en­



32a

tered the order, your children went to a white school. 
Now, is it your contention that your kids would not 
get just as good an education where the faculty was 
all-white, as they would where you had part white

—421—
and part negro faculty?

The Witness: That’s not my intent. But I do feel 
like they would get just as much education, and then 
they would have the experience of being among the 
white and negro teachers.

The Court: All right.
Mr. Williams: If Your Honor please, in light of 

that answer that has just been given, I would like 
to ask this:

Q. How far did you go in school? A. Through the 
twelfth grade.

Q. And that was in the Madison County School System? 
A. That’s right.

Q. In the segregated negro portion of the Madison 
County School System, is that right? A. Yes.

Q. You are not a college educated man, are you? A. No. 
Q. And by occupation, you are a farmer? A. That’s 

right.

Mr. Williams: That is all.

Glynn White—for Plaintiffs—Recross

—422—
Recross Examination by Mr. Manhein:

Q. I think he answered this question, Your Honor, and 
I am not quite sure—did you say you thought they would 
get just as good an education in an all-white faculty as they



33a

would if the faculty were integrated? A. Well, I think I 
did say that.

Mr. Manhein: That is all.

Glynn White—for Plaintiffs— Redirect—Recross

Redirect Examination by Mr. Williams:

Q. State what you meant by that, Mr. White? A. In 
the previous all-white school, where they have more litera­
ture and better literature, I presume that they have a 
chance of getting more than they would get in the previous 
all-negro schools, because in a segregated system the previ­
ous negro schools do not have all that the previous white 
schools has.

Q. And does this remain true, even though the negro 
schools are allegedly—even though they now say the negro 
schools are desegregated, are they still just like they were 
before, all negro faculties and still the same discrepancy, 
difference that you are talking about in the literature and 
the facilities? A. Yes, sir.

—423—
Mr. Williams: I believe that is all.

Recross Examination by Mr. Manhein:

Q. You don’t really know whether there is any difference 
in the school books and literature in the schools, do you? 
A. I think it is some difference.

Q. Well, can you give us some concrete example?

Mr. Williams: May it please the Court, I respect­
fully refer counsel to the language that this gentle-



34a

man is using, having just admitted that he is a gradu­
ate of their negro high school up there.

The Court: Are you making an objection?
Mr. Williams: Yes, sir, I am objecting.
The Court: To this question on its relevance?
Mr. Williams: I am objecting, if Your Honor 

please—no, I will withdraw my objection.
—424—

By Mr. Manhein:

Q. Well, can you give us some concrete example of what 
you are saying? I am not talking about when you were in 
school twenty years ago, but at the present time, any dif­
ference in the literature, books, curriculum? A. I think 
the American History is different.

Q. Where? A. In the negro schools and the previous 
white schools.

Q. Different in what way? A. It is not the same book as 
I saw my daughter bring home.

Q. What grade was your daughter in at that time? A. 
The seventh grade.

Q. And she brought one American History book home 
when she was in the seventh grade that somehow is different 
from some other American History book that she brought 
home? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And is that what you are basing this on? A. That’s 
the onliest thing I have to go on, because it was different.

Q. What grade was she in when she brought the other 
American History book home? A. She was in the sixth

- 4 2 5 -
grade at that time.

Q. And when she was in the sixth grade she went to what 
school? A. To Denmark School.

Glynn White—-for Plaintiffs—Recross



35a,

Q. And she brought a certain type of American History 
book home in the sixth grade? A. Yes.

Q. Did they teach American History in the sixth grade? 
A. Well, she told me it was American History.

Q. You really don’t know that there is any difference? 
You are kind of guessing about that? A. I may not be 
giving it exactly, but it is some difference.

Mr. Manhein: All right.
Mr. Williams: That is all.
The Court: Step down, Mr. White.

(Witness excused.)

Nathaniel Benson,—for Plaintiffs—Direct

The Court: Call your next witness.
Mr. Williams: Call Mr. Benson.

—426—
Nathaniel Benson, the said witness, having been first 

duly sworn, testified as fo llow s:

Direct Examination by Mr. Williams:

Q. State your name, age and address. A. Nathaniel 
Benson. My age is forty-three.

Q. Where do you live? A. Route 5, Jackson.
Q. How long have you lived there? A. Practically all 

my life ; ever since I was about nine years old.
Q. That’s Madison County, Tennessee? A. Right.
Q. What is your occupation? A. Well, I am a farmer 

and am in the taxi business.
Q. How far did you go in school? A. Seventh grade.
Q. And was that in the segregated schools of Madison 

County, Tennessee? A. Right.



36a

Q. When did you finish the seventh grade? A. I can’t
—4 2 7 -

recall right now when I finished.

The Court: Speak up so everybody can hear you. 
The Witness: I can’t recall the year that I finished 

in, because, if it please the Court, I would like to 
say, while I am thinking of it, the reason I didn’t 
go any higher is on account of the harvest of the 
white man’s cotton. It wasn’t ours. It was the white 
man’s cotton, but we didn’t get anything out of it. 
I am forty-three years old, and I don’t want my kids 
to come up like I did.

By Mr. Williams:

Q. Your folks were tenant farmers and you worked on 
a white man’s farm? A. Yes.

Q. And they let you out at the harvest time, a split sea­
son—how many years ago was that? Has it been twenty 
or twenty-five or thirty years? A. It was about thirty- 
three years ago, I  would say.

Q. And they let you out in split seasons, so that you could 
harvest this cotton for the white man? A. That’s right.

—428—
Q. And that’s the reason that you didn’t go any further 

in school? A. That’s right,
Q. Are there any large numbers of negroes up there in 

Madison County who benefit, who have to have this split 
season thing in order to live, in order to live and make out? 
A. Don’t have to.

Q. Sir? A. We don’t have to. Just like I said, I have 
been in the cab business, and have been all over Madison 
County, and I see what is happening, and out on my road

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs—Direct



37a

there is ten miles through which we don’t have but just 
one sharecropper. I notice a while back that somebody said 
that ninety-five percent of the negro people was farmers.

Q. You say ninety-five? A. He said they was share­
croppers. But you don’t have that—you don’t have ninety- 
five percent of the negro people sharing. On my road there 
is ten miles through which we don’t have but one.

Q. Is he working for himself or working for the white 
man? A. He is sharecropping, working for a white man.

—429—
Q. These sharecroppers that work for these white men 

and deprive their children of an education like this, what 
is their average annual income? What do they, themselves, 
get out of this? A. It’s working sharecropping or work­
ing by the day.

Q. Do they do it both ways? A. Both ways. People 
used to sharecrop and work by the day on my road and 
some other roads, and they would get four dollars a day. 
A  person can’t make it now on four dollars a day.

Q. How much do they give them for the children that 
work? A. The children, they don’t hire them, because they 
say they are too small.

Q. So, what happens, then, in effect, that they pay the 
negro four dollars for a day’s labor, and instead of doing 
it himself, he is given the opportunity to use his children—

Mr. Manhein: Object to the leading.
The Court: I believe you are leading.
Mr. Williams: I was just trying to speed things

—430—
along.

The Court: Well, that is all right. We won’t ride 
herd on you too much, but you can’t put the answers 
in his mouth.

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs—Direct



38a

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs—Direct 

By Mr. Williams:

Q. But that was the situation? A. If Your Honor please, 
if you will let my opinion on that—

The Court: Now, let me say this: We are talking 
about the split season, and maybe to save a little 
time, the Court ought to set a few ground rules. 
We understand the law. The School Board has no 
obligation to abolish the split season unless it is 
shown that it is being maintained in order to per­
petuate segregation. In support of its contention 
that that is not the reason for it, the School Board 
contends that as a matter of fact a great number 
of these negro children do pick cotton, and, further, 
that that’s an economic necessity for them, and their 
parents, and in support of the contention that it is

- 4 3 1 -
being maintained in order to perpetuate segrega­
tion, the plaintiffs are seeking to show that there 
is no economic necessity for it and that’s the only 
reason, to perpetuate segregation. Now, let’s try 
to keep our proof on that issue, not what different 
people may think about it, its general wisdom or 
the fact that it’s part of the system which is eco­
nomically wrong because this Court, as we said in a 
prior opinion, cannot reorganize the economy of 
Madison County as part of the school desegregation 
case.

I might say here also that the School Board has 
stipulated that educationally it is not desirable, but 
I think Mr. Williams will recognize that even though 
it is educationally not desirable, this Court cannot 
order it abolished for that reason. The only basis



39a

on which the Court could do something about it is 
on the basis that it was perpetuating segregation. 
I also took occasion to say in the last opinion I wrote 
in this case that if it is true, as plaintiffs contend,

—432—
that it is unpopular with the vast majority of ne­
groes in Madison County and that they don’t want 
it, it would seem to the Court that under this plan 
of desegregation that has been approved there, that 
would create a very strong motive on the part of the 
negroes to choose to go to the heretofore white 
schools; so in that sense, if it was unpopular, it 
wouldn’t tend to perpetuate segregation, and now 
I wish you gentlemen would keep your questions 
related to the point as to its economic necessity, 
because that indirectly goes to the question of 
whether or not it is being maintained to perpetuate 
segregation.

Mr. Williams: I would like to state for the record 
that the plaintiffs are here offering proof on this 
question of economic necessity under protest ac­
tually, because the plaintiffs, Your Honor, may recall 
in the pre-trial conference and throughout this case, 
have maintained that the fact of the differentiation 
as between the negro and the white school is un­
constitutional.

The Court: All right, sir.
—433—

By Mr. Williams:

Q. Now, Mr. Benson, how many children do you have!
A. Four.

Q. How man are enrolled in the schools in Madison
County! A. Three.

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs—-Direct



40a

Q. What schools are they in? A. One is in Browns, 
and the other in East High, and I enrolled one of them in 
North side this year.

The Court: Give me that again, Mr. Benson.
The Witness: One of them is in Browns Elemen­

tary School.
The Court: Is that a heretofore white school?
The Witness: Yes, sir.
The Court: And where are the others ?
The Witness: North Side High School and East 

High.
The Court: Is that a heretofore white school?
The Witness: A  negro school.
The Court: Go ahead, Mr. Williams.

—434—
By Mr. Williams:

Q. Now, Mr. Benson, why are these children attending 
these three different schools, especially why are the two 
high school children attending different schools, one at­
tending a formerly white and one a formerly negro? 
A. Well, the one is attending the negro school on account 
of the mother. Her mother wanted her to go there. I 
really wanted her to go to North Side, because they have 
better everything, I would say. They have better books. 
They have more books. I was out there to a PTA meeting 
two or three years ago, if it please the Court, and they 
had the meeting in the library. The library that they 
had, which I am not educated—I got my books at my house, 
and they have in East High School, and I gets around 
quite a bit since my kids have been in school, and I have 
been to some of these white schools, and they have a lot 
of books. They have so many books. Some of the places

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs—Direct



41a

the books is stacked on the tables out in the library. I 
have seen that, which I don’t guess nobody knows I was 
looking, but that’s why I wrant to go there, because they 
can get more education, because I didn’t get it, and I am 
pushing to try to make them get some of it, make the

—4 3 5 -
white man pay them for the work that I have did; that’s 
what I am trying to do.

Q. Now, Mr. Benson, do you feel like your children will 
get a better education? A. They will.

Q. Now, let me ask you about faculties, teachers and 
principals. Do you feel like it is better for the teachers 
and principals to be mixed within a school, or for them 
all to be all-white teachers ? A. I feel like it is better for 
them to be mixed, because you have better teachers. There 
are teachers that are not qualified now, and they will go 
back to school and get what they needs to teach their kids. 
I feel like it is better for them to be mixed. I feel like the 
whole entire thing is now ready to be mixed, all faculties.

Q. Do you feel like the schools that have been all-negro 
should have some white faces in there somewhere? A. 
That’s right; both for teachers and for students.

Q. Why do you feel like that? A. I feel like it would be 
better for the people, better for the faculty and better for 
the students.

—436—
Q. Is everybody up there in Madison County an Ameri­

can citizen? A. Right.

Mr. Manhein: If Your Honor please, this is ir­
relevant.

Mr. Williams: I don’t know, if Your Honor please.

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs—Direct



42a

The Court: Let me ask you this: You know we 
have a limited amount of time today, and you have 
another motion this afternoon. You know this Court 
knows that everybody in Madison County is an 
American citizen.

Mr. Williams: But I am asking him if he feels 
like that has something to do with his feeling. I 
know counsel wants to object to this, but this public 
supported School Board is the one forcing us to put 
a seventh-grade educated plaintiff on—

The Court: Mr. Williams, you are not going to 
ask irrelevant questions, and your last question was 
irrelevant. Now, what we are trying to get at is the

—4 3 7 -
question as to whether or not this segregation of 
faculties is preventing the abolition of discrimina­
tion. In other words, more specifically, is it prevent­
ing negro parents from choosing to go to white 
schools; that is what we are basically interested in, 
and if we don’t stick pretty close to that, we will 
never get through.

Mr. Williams: May it please the Court, I submit 
that’s not the only point about segregated faculties. 
It affects the education.

The Court: But the point is, Mr. Williams, that 
this Court is not and cannot take over all the educa­
tional policies of the Board. We are not sitting in 
judgment of whether this educational policy is good 
or bad, except to the extent that it prevents the 
abolition of discrimination. Now, if it were true that 
the fact that you had an all-white faculty makes for 
a poorer education in the schools, and if that creates

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs—Direct



43a

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs—Direct

a deterrence on the part of the negro parents not 
to send their children to the white schools because of 
that educational factor, it would come into play that

—4 3 8 -
way, but we are not sitting in judgment of the edu­
cational policies per se.

Mr. Williams: I am not trying to establish that, 
if Your Honor please. All I am showing is—if Your 
Honor please, I will try to direct my questions along 
—I want to state for the record, if Your Honor 
please, that it is our contention, first, with regard to 
this question, that the Supreme Court held in the 
Brown case that segregation in education is uncon­
stitutional. We feel that that decision, and we insist 
that that decision encompassed a holding that that 
included segregation in all aspects of the school 
system.

The Court: We understand that’s your contention 
about what the constitutional law is.

Mr. Williams: Now, if Your Honor please, the 
Court, as we understand it, indicated in the pre-trial 
conference that it would be incumbent on us here 
to introduce some proof with regard to this teacher 
desegregation question. We do not intend to aban­
don our position that the Supreme Court has held

—439—
that segregation in and of itself in education violates 
the constitution. We intend further to show, how­
ever, that segregation in this particular aspect as 
well as all other aspects of the school system has 
an impact on the education of a child, not only by 
way of a deterrent from selecting a particular school



44a

in a choice plan system, but also in other ways, as 
has been mentioned by the plaintiff, Mr. White.

The Court: All right, let’s get around to ques­
tioning this witness. We understand your position.

Mr. Williams: All right, sir.

Q. Do you feel that continued segregation of the fac­
ulties in the school has any tendency to keep the negro 
school designated, known as a negro school and a white 
school known as a white school? A. Repeat that. I didn’t 
quite understand it.

Q. Do you feel that the fact that you have white teachers 
only at white schools and negro teachers only at negro 
schools tends to keep those schools known as negro and 
white schools in the community? A. I really don’t think

—440—
it would help Madison County if you keep them like they 
are now.

Q. Well, explain why you don’t think it would help 
Madison County? A. Well, I just explained it a while 
ago. I believe it would be better for them to integrate now 
as a school than stay a negro and white school.

Q. Do you still call schools up there in Madison County 
negro and white schools? A. Well, as far as I know, they 
call them.

Q. Are all the schools that used to be negro schools still 
known as negro schools? A. Yes. There is not a white 
kid in them, and not a white teacher in them that I knows 
anything about.

Q. Do you feel if they had white teachers in those schools 
that they might begin to not be known as negro schools 
and be known as Madison County schools? A. That’s 
right.

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs—Direct



45a

Q. Now, the white schools are schools that are sup­
posedly desegregated. Do you still know them as white 
schools, even though a few negro kids go there? A. Yes, 
sir.

Q. Do you feel that it may help them—
—441—

Mr. Manhein: Objection again, on the ground he 
is leading. He is leading the witness and making a 
speech in the process.

Mr. Williams: All right. I will tone down my 
voice.

Q. Mr. Benson, do you feel that the white schools would 
stop being known as white schools and be known as Madi­
son County schools if you had negro teachers assigned 
there ? A. Bight.

Mr. Williams: You may cross-examine.

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiff's—Cross

Cross-Examination by Mr. Manhein:

Q. How many families, approximately, if you know, do 
we have in Madison County—how many negro families do 
we have, families whose children pick cotton during the 
harvest season? A. Well, you will find a lot of them that 
picks cotton in Madison County. I  don’t know just how 
many. As I said a while ago, speaking about ninety-five 
percent of the negro people is farmers, but you don’t have 
them now. I f  you was in the business I was in, you could 
find out those people is not farming now—most of them do

—4 4 2 -
public work.



46a

Q. Could you give us any estimate as to the percent! 
A. I would say you have about twenty percent.

Q. About twenty percent of the negro people farming? 
A. And you have about that many of whites that are 
farmers around.

Q. Well, I believe you don’t understand my question. 
Could you tell me about what percent of the negro farm 
families that we have in Madison County, about how 
many— A. All total?

Q. No. What percent use their children to pick cotton? 
Would it be as many as half of them? A. No, it wouldn’t 
be half. You would have about ten percent of them.

Q. And do you have any idea as to how many negro farm 
families we have in Madison County? A. Are you speak­
ing of the land owners or sharecroppers or renters, or who ? 

Q. Both. A. All total?
Q. Yes. A. About twenty percent of them.

—443—
The Court: You say only twenty percent of the 

negro families in Madison County out of Jackson 
are making their living farming?

The Witness: Yes, sir.
The Court: What are the rest of them doing? 
The Witness: They works in town at plants and 

things that are coming in. They haven’t never got 
anything off the farm nohow, the sharecroppers 
haven’t.

By Mr. Manhein:

Q. Now, what community do you live in? A. Denmark 
community.

Q. And what is the closest former negro school to you? 
A. Tri-Community School.

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs-—-Cross



47a

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs—Cross

Q. Do you have any idea how many negro farm families 
you have out there at the Tri-Community School? I am not 
talking about families who earn a living in town, but 
families who earn their living—well, farmers, share­
croppers or land owners? A. On my road?

Q. Well, in that Tri-Community area there, whose chil­
dren go to Tri-Community School? A. We have about

- 4 4 4 -
five.

Q. Five what? A. Five families is farming on that 
road; that don’t work in town.

Q. I am not talking about on the road. What I am trying 
to get at, and I am anxious for you to understand the ques­
tion, if I can make it clear. About how many negro farm 
families do we have whose children attend the Tri-Com­
munity School, if you know? A. Oh, I don’t know how 
many families attending that school, Tri-Community 
School. I wouldn’t have the slightest idea.

Q. Well, could you give any estimate?

Mr. Williams: I object, if Your Honor please. He 
said he doesn’t know.

The Court: Objection sustained.

By Mr. Manhein:

Q. Two of your children are in white schools. The fact 
that they had in those schools all-white faculties didn’t deter 
you from sending your children to those schools, did it ? A. 
No, it didn’t.

—445—
Q. It didn’t bother you at all? A. No. But, as I stated 

a while ago, I think it would be better, though, for the 
entire school to be integrated.



48a

Q. Now, let me ask you this question: Do you think that 
your children will get just as good an education with 
the all-white faculty as they would if they had a mixed 
faculty in those two schools? A. I believe it would be 
better for them to have them mixed.

Q. I am not talking about it being better. I am not 
talking about social deals—

Mr. Ballard: I f  Your Honor please, he is ar­
guing with the witness.

The Court: The witness says he thought it would 
be better.

Mr. Ballard: That is a direct answer.
The Court: Well, we thought that the answer 

was not responsive, but even though it may have 
been responsive, Mr. Manhein is entitled to pursue 
the statement and find out what he meant.

By Mr. Manhein:

Q. What I am asking is simply this: Do you think they 
would get just as good an education with an all-white

- 4 4 6 -
faculty as they would with an integrated faculty?

Mr. Williams: We object to that, because before 
he asks this witness with his educational background 
that question, we submit that he must define what 
he means by “ just as good an education” .

The Court: Well, we think the question is clear 
enough. We can’t define every word that we use in 
asking a question, so the objection is overruled. 
Go ahead.

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs—Cross



49a

The Witness: Mr. Manhein, if you would break 
that down a little bit more.

The Court: Ask him if he thinks they would 
learn as much.

The Witness: I don’t know what you mean.
Mr. Manhein: All right.

Q. Two of your children are going to formerly white 
schools, are they not? A. That’s right.

Q. What schools are they, North Side and Browns? A. 
Yes, sir.

Q. Now, let’s take North Side. Do you think the child 
that you have that is going to North Side High School

—4 4 7 -
will learn as much at North Side with an all-white faculty 
with all-white teachers as they would if they were a mixed 
faculty out there? A. I feel it would be better with a 
mixed faculty.

Mr. Manhein: Well, Your Honor, I am through.

(Witness excused.)

The Court: All right. We will have a recess as 
far as this case is concerned. We have an ICC mat­
ter to take up, so I would estimate for you gentle­
men that you will have about twenty-five minutes, 
because it will take us about ten minutes to take 
care of this ICC matter.

(This trial recessed to take care of an ICC matter 
and a regular recess.)

The Court: Are you gentlemen ready to proceed?
Mr. Manhein: Yes, sir.

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs—Cross



50a

Mr. Williams: Yes, sir.
The Court: Call your next witness.
Mr. Ballard: Call Mrs. Wilson.

—448—
Mrs. Gladys W ilson, the said witness, having been first 

duly sworn, testified as fo llow s:

Direct Examination by Mr. Ballard:

Q. State your name, please. A. Gladys Wilson.
Q. And where do you live? A. Route 5, Jackson.
Q. And what is your husband’s name? A. Coolidge 

Wilson.
Q. And what does your husband do? A. He public works 

and farms together.
Q. Now, if you don’t mind, speak out so Mr. Manhein 

can hear you. A. All right.
Q. Do you work? A. No.
Q. Do you all have children? A. Yes.
Q. How many? A. Pour.

—449—
Q. What are their ages? A. Sixteen, fourteen and eight 

and six.
Q. Are they all in school? A. Yes, they are.
Q. Name the schools they attend. A. East High.
Q. That is an elementary and high school combined? A. 

Yes.
Q. And all of your children go to East High? A. That’s 

right.
Q. I will ask you first, Mrs. Wilson, do you all pick cot­

ton? A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been farming? A. Practically 

ever since we have been married.

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Direct



Q. Will you state to the Court whether or not it is neces­
sary for your children to help you pick cotton, that is to 
say out of school in order for you to make and gather 
your crops? A. No, it is not necessary to do that at any 
time, because we can get the cotton—we have machines to 
do the gathering of the crop.

Q. Is your situation about the same as the others in
— 450—

your community? A. Yes, it is. They have cotton pickers 
there to do theirs, and they don’t have to keep their chil­
dren out to get the cotton out.

Q. Are there any white teachers at East High School? 
A. No, there are not.

Q. How far do you live from East High School? A. I 
guess about three mile.

Q. What would you call East High School? Would you 
call it, or do you call it a negro school or a white school? 
A. It is a negro school, because there are not any white 
children attending, and not any white teachers there on 
the faculty.

Q. I f  there were white teachers and white students there, 
would you call it a negro school? A. No.

Q. Are there any white children in East High School? 
A. No.

Q. Do you feel that it would be any advantage to have 
white teachers along with negro teachers there at East 
High School? A. Yes, I do.

— 451—

Q. Do you feel that it would be an advantage to have 
negro teachers along with white teachers at North Side 
School? A. Yes, I do.

Q. What advantage do you feel that it would be in each 
case? A. Well, in having negro teachers in a white school, 
it would help the children to get a better outlook on the

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Direct



52a

other race, and coming up together, they would understand 
—in other words, it would help them to feel—in other 
words, it would help them in—to help them understand the 
races, and I believe the negro teacher would strive harder 
to work a little harder and help the children, and the white 
teachers would strive a little harder in helping the children.

Q. Then, are you saying that you think the teachers and 
the negro children and the white children would be bene- 
fitted by an inter-group or inter-racial school system? A. 
Yes.

Q. I believe you said you think it would help them to 
have a better understanding and better relationship? A. 
It would.

Q. Do you think that a better relationship, that better
— 452-

understanding and a better outlook would have a tendency 
to raise the quality of education of all children? A. It 
would.

Q. And to create a different kind of attitude toward the 
work to be performed on the part of the teachers? A. 
It will.

Q. Now, you attended the public school system in Madi­
son County, didn’t you? A. That’s right.

Q. What school did you attend? A. Well, at the time 
I was attending school, I attended Tri-Community School, 
and from there to Merry High in Jackson.

Q. And each of those schools were negro schools? A. 
Eight.

Q. Did your family make crops? A. Yes, they did.
Q. But you attended Tri-Community Elementary? A. 

That’s right.
Q. And you were about, I presume, thirteen or fourteen 

years old when you finished elementary school ? A. That’s 
right.

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Direct



53a

Q. And you transferred then to the city schools? A.
—453—

That’s right.
Q. It wasn’t necessary then that your parents keep you 

at home to help make the crops? A. No, they didn’t.
Q. Did they continue to farming while you were in high 

school? A. Yes, they did, but they did not keep me out 
to harvest the crops.

Q. Was it necessary then that children should be kept 
out? A. No, it wasn’t. They didn’t have cotton pickers as 
they have them now, but somehow or another, the parents 
would work harder and sacrifice time in order to get the 
crops out, and they might be a little bit later, but they did 
not keep children out of school to do so.

Q. Is there a great difference now in the speed one makes 
in planting, cultivating and gathering crops? A. It is.

Q. Why? A. Because, as the years pass, they have 
learned to make machinery and find out that that wouldn’t 
consume so much time, and in gathering with machinery, 
you can do it much faster. It used to take two or three

- 4 5 4 -
days to pick a bale of cotton, and now in an hour or two 
you will have two or three bales of cotton gathered.

Q. And are the people resorting more and more to the 
cotton picker now? A. That’s right. Around in my neigh­
borhood they plant cotton in order to use the machine. 
They are not planning to gather it with their hands, and, 
therefore, the people picking the cotton with their hands, 
they don’t have anything to do now, because they use the 
machines to do this work, even the grown people that are 
not teachers that used to pick cotton with hands, that 
would make money in the fall, they don’t have that to do 
now, because they have machines to do it with.

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Direct



54a

Q. So you think there is really more walking around 
now when negro schools are not in session than there is 
work on the part of the students anyhow, because of the 
cotton pickers? A. That’s right, that is true.

Q. Mrs. Wilson, I  didn’t ask you where you lived with 
reference to East High School. A. I live in the Spring 
Creek Community.

— 455—

Q. Now, Spring Creek is more or less in the northern 
part of Madison County? A. Eight.

Q. How long have you lived in that section? A. Well, 
I have been living there about seventeen years. I have 
been living there ever since I married. I moved from 
Jackson there. That’s my husband’s home.

Q. And what percentage of sharecroppers do you have 
in that section? A. Well, we have a very few, very few.

Q. Did I ask you a moment ago, I think I did, how most 
of the people who live on the farm make their living in 
your community? A. Well, in my community most of 
them there own their own farms, and they have their crops, 
but they have machines to gather these crops with, and 
those that have those small crops where they just gather 
them themselves with their hands, and if they see that 
they cannot gather it with their hands, they hire a cotton 
picker to come in and gather for them.

Q. Are there any people who do public work living in 
your community? A. Yes.

— 456—

Q. Are they farmers? A. Yes.
Q. They are farmers, but they do public work, and I be­

lieve that is true with your husband? A. That’s right. 
They farm and public work too.

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Direct



55a

Q. What would you say is the percentage of negroes 
who are sharecroppers in the whole of Madison County? 
Do you know or have any idea? A. No, I don’t have an 
idea about that.

Q. But, it is your view that none of them need their 
children out in the fields to help them gather cotton? A. 
No, sir, they don’t need them.

Q. And you think that it is a detriment to the parents 
and to the students for them to be out of school during 
the harvest? A. Yes.

Q. Because, I believe you stated that they are mostly 
walking around? A. That’s right, and the children don’t 
do too much picking cotton now anyway.

Q. Mrs. Wilson, do you have any white sharecroppers in 
your community? A. No. They all have their own home

— 457—
in my community.

Q. Do you have any white farmers in your community? 
A. Yes, quite a few.

Q. About what percentage of the white farmers in the 
county, that is colored and white, what is the percentage 
of white or colored—is it about fifty-fifty? A. It’s just 
about on equal basis around there where I live.

Mr. Ballard: I believe that is all.

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Cross

Cross-Examination by Mr. Manhein:

Q. You live in the Spring Creek area, did you say? A. 
That’s right.

Q. And that is near East High School, isn’t it? A. Yes, 
that’s right.



56a

Q. Are you saying that there are not any negro families 
out there who need their children to gather crops during 
the harvest time? A. Not where I live. They don’t just 
really need them.

Q. I am talking about families who have children in 
East High School. I am not necessarily talking about 
where you live, but families who have children who attend

— 458-

East High. Now, are you saying that none of these fam­
ilies need their children to pick cotton? A. Well, it might 
be some that might need them, but as far as keeping them 
out to pick the cotton, they will not do that.

Q. You mean none of them would let them pick cotton 
even though they do get out at harvest? A. Some of the 
people might let them pick if they are out, but just to 
keep them out to pick the cotton, I don’t think they would 
do that. In fact, I know they wouldn’t. They haven’t been 
doing it.

Q. But there are a substantial number of families who 
have children who attend East High School who need their 
children for cotton-picking purposes at harvest time, isn’t 
that true? A. Who need their children?

Q. Yes; who need them to pick cotton? A. No.
Q. There are no families there? A. No, not around 

where I live that’s going to East High.
Q. What size farm are you and your husband cultivat-

— 459—

ing? A. Well, we have around about ten or eleven acres 
of cotton.

Q. Who picks the cotton on your ten or eleven acres? 
A. Well, when my children are there and not in school, 
they will help us, but ordinarily we get a cotton picker to

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Cross



57a

pick the cotton. We are not depending on them to gather 
the crops, because they cannot do it.

Q. Now, you have ten acres. Do you own that land or 
are you sharecropping? A. We own that land.

Q. You own ten acres? A. We own a farm.
Q. What size farm? A. It’s about two hundred acres.
Q. And of that two hundred acres, you only have ten 

acres planted in cotton? A. That’s right; he and his 
father together.

Q. What? A. My husband and his father together. 
They work together.

Q. Well, in past harvest time, this past fall, last year, 
who picked the cotton on your place? A. The cotton pick­
er did, and what we gathered together—the cotton picker,

—460—
and my husband’s father and mother.

Q. Your husband’s father and mother, your mother-in- 
law and father-in-law? A. That’s right.

Q. And your husband, does he pick any? A. He is 
working.

Q. Where does he work? A. At Milan.
Q. Well, did they pick all of that ten acres? A. I said 

we had to get a cotton picker to pick what we could not pick.
Q. And did you buy a machine, or just rent one? A. 

We rented one.
Q. What does that cost? A. They pick it for $2.00 a 

hundred; in other words, having a bale of cotton harvested 
would cost you about $26.00.

Q. How would a sharecropper pay $26.00 and come out, 
if he had to utilize the machine? A. Well, he might not 
come out so well, but if he is intending for his children 
to get an education, he will have to do the best he can.

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Cross



58a

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Cross

—461—
Q- But he may not come out financially so well with his 

cotton? A. Right. But if he intends to have his children 
get an education, he would sacrifice income for that.

Q. What you are saying is that you think he ought to 
make an economic sacrifice in order for his children to 
get a better education? A. Right.

Q. Now, do you think that strictly from the standpoint 
of an education now—from the standpoint of learning, that 
negro children will get just as good an education if the 
faculties were all white as the child would if the faculties 
were integrated? A. State your question again.

Q. Do you think that a negro child would get just as 
good an education in a school that had an all-white faculty 
as the child would if the faculty in that school were inte­
grated? A. I f  it was all-white?

Q. Yes. Would the children learn as much in one case 
as the other? A. No, I don’t think so. In fact, I know 
they wouldn’t.

—462—
Q. Why? A. Well, it would have— in other words, if 

it was some white teachers there and some negro teachers 
there, that would help—in other words, that child would 
have the opportunity to mingle with the other race.

Q. Well, you have members of the other race in the 
student body. I am talking about a school where the stu­
dents are integrated where you have both white and negro, 
but with an all-white faculty. Now, in that type school, 
would the negro get just as good an education as they 
would where the faculty is also integrated? A. He would 
get as good an education, but it wouldn’t be on equal basis. 
In other words, you would have all-white teachers, but 
you wouldn’t have no colored teachers.



59a

Q. I understand that. But what I am talking about— 
from the standpoint of learning, the child would learn 
just as much as he would if the faculty were mixed! You 
would agree to that!

Mr. Williams: Well, of course, I object to that, 
if Your Honor please. If counsel is going to accept 
these witnesses as expert witnesses and be bound 
by the answers, then fine. I will agree.

—463—
Mr. Manhein: If Your Honor please, they were 

not offered as experts.
The Court: They have already testified about 

things that I would normally require an expert to 
testify about, Mr. Williams.

Mr. Williams : All right.
Mr. Manhein: That is all I have.

Gladys Wilson~for Plaintiffs—Redirect

Redirect Examination by Mr. Ballard:

Q. Did I ask you whether or not the big farms in Madi­
son County are now being harvested by the cotton pickers! 
Is or is not that correct? A. What is that?

Q. The big cotton acreage, whether it is owned by white 
or negro, how is the cotton being gathered now? A. With 
a cotton picker.

Q. In other words, that great army of negro children 
who used to pick cotton are no longer picking cotton any­
how? A. No.

Q. Now, you said here a moment ago that you felt that 
it would be better to have a mixed faculty, even though

—464—
maybe learning something might be the same with—why



60a

do you think that it would be better to have the mixed 
faculty? A. Well, it just gives the children a different 
outlook on the entire—

Mr. Manhein: If Your Honor please, I object to 
this on the ground it is repetitious.

Mr. Ballard: I believe so, Your Honor. I think 
she has answered that. I agree that she has.

Mr. Williams: I am not sure that she has. I don’t 
recall her having answered that.

The Court: I believe she testified about that, Mr. 
Williams.

Mr. Ballard: I believe that is all.
The Court: Mrs. Wilson, you say there are very 

few negro children of school age now picking cotton 
when they are let out during that split season for 
that purpose. As the Court understands it, in the 
schools that are attended all by negroes, that they 
have a split season, that is to say that they let the 
children out, as we understand it, for about a month

—465—
in the late summer and perhaps going into Septem­
ber—they let them out for about a month, or five 
or six weeks, for the purpose of picking cotton, 
that’s true, isn’t it?

The Witness: That’s right.
The Court: And as we understand your testi­

mony, it is your opinion and your experience that 
there are very few of those negro children who are 
let out for that purpose who actually pick cotton, 
is that true?

The Witness: That’s right. They have cotton 
pickers.

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Redirect



61a

The Court: So while you don’t know any specific 
figures, you say that generally they don’t pick cotton?

The Witness: They don’t. They hire a cotton 
picker. They might pick a little, but it is very little. 
The children are playing up and down the road.

The Court: So you say there is no necessity for 
this and the white farmers are not using these negro 
children?

—466—
The Witness: They are not. I have known them 

to wait until the cotton picker could get to them. 
They do it mostly with a cotton picker.

The Court: If that is the case, how is it that that 
split season—how does it tend to perpetuate segre­
gation? How does it affect the choice of a negro 
child who now has a choice to go to a heretofore 
all-white school? In other words, if they are being 
let out, and they are not doing anything, how does 
that keep them from choosing to go to a white school 
where they don’t have that split season?

The Witness: Well, I think in some terms—in 
other words, they just think if the whites are going 
straight through, why not the negro schools keep 
going straight through.

The Court: We understand that, but what the 
Court is trying to find out from you, if you know— 
you say that these schools let these children out 
for that purpose of picking cotton. You say, first, 
there is no necessity to let them out; that their

- 4 6 7 -
parents could make out without them, and in any 
event, very few, if any, are actually picking cotton, 
and what the Court is trying to find out is, if that

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Redirect



62a

is true, if there is no necessity for it and very few 
are picking, how does that tend to perpetuate, to 
create a desire to stay in a negro school, rather 
than to choose to go to a white school? It looks 
like to the Court it would be the other way around 
if they didn’t like it, and had no reason for it, it 
would give them a reason to transfer to a white 
school where they don’t have a split season.

The Witness: In some cases the children are 
small, and they have to transfer on buses. I mean 
they will catch one bus here and then have to trans­
fer over there, in order to get to school. In other 
words, they will catch a school bus and go so far, 
and then they have to transfer from that bus to 
another bus. I know that happens in some cases.

The Court: You are giving a transportation rea­
son for why they may not go to a white school, but

—468—
we are trying to see where in this split season 
proposition how that would tend to maintain segre­
gated schools. If what you say is true, if there is 
no necessity for it and that, as a matter of fact, very 
few of the children are actually picking cotton, it 
would look to the Court like that would create a 
reason for the negro parent who doesn’t have any 
need for these children to be out of school to send 
them to the heretofore white schools, because they 
won’t have to put up with that split season, and we 
are wondering wherein this split season tends to 
maintain segregation. That’s what we are trying 
to find out.

The Witness: Well, that is one of the reasons 
I still say that they don’t—if they catch the bus

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Redirect



63a

here, they have so far to go, and then have to trans­
fer to another bus to get to the school.

The Court: All right.

By Mr. Ballard:

Q. Mrs. Wilson, state whether or not it is your opinion 
that as long as you have this split season, you will have

— 469—

segregated school systems? Do you think that is true? 
A. Yes, I  do.

The Court: Why do you think that? Why does 
the spit season tend to perpetuate the segregated 
school system?

Mr. Ballard: Your Honor, I was going to ask a 
question on that.

The Court: All right. Go ahead.

By Mr. Ballard:

Q. Do you feel that white children will go to a negro 
school, even if it is next door to them, that has a cotton 
break? A. State your question again.

Q. Will children go to a split season school? Are they 
attending the split season schools in Madison County in 
your community? A. No.

Q. And then you feel that on that choice basis, they will 
by-pass many of the Madison County schools designated 
as negro schools and thus leave them as segregated schools ? 
A. That’s right.

Q. Now, I will ask you this: Is it a fact that as you
— 470—

stated that some children live near these schools that they

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Redirect



64a

are attending which have the split sessions? A. That’s 
right.

Q. And, of course, they have to fall out because of the 
way their school operates? A. That’s right.

Q. And you feel that no whites will attend such a school 
operating on that basis? A. They will not, because they 
are going to go nine months straight through, and they will 
not attend the school, ordinary school, because it is going 
to be out for five or six weeks for havesting, and then they 
go back to school.

Q. Now, back to the Court’s question with reference to 
why the children do not go to a white school, instead of 
going to a so-called negro school where the season is not 
split. Do you understand any kind of reason for that? Do 
you know why? A. Why they don’t go to the white schools 
while havesting is in?

Q. Yes. A. Well, really, I would think in terms that 
they just hadn’t really—in other words, it is just out for

—471—
havesting, and they just consider themselves out for 
harvesting, and they just don’t be interested in going to 
the white schools as they have always been through the 
years.

Q. In other words, you think that the system is more 
the reason than any, perhaps, time they have had to think 
intelligently about the question? A. That’s right. I be­
lieve that’s the reason.

Q. In other words, they are just going out of force of 
habit and are not making an intelligent choice in that 
respect?

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Redirect

Mr. Manhein: I f  Your Honor please, he has 
asked and answered the question about three times. 

The Court: Don’t lead the witness.



65a

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Redirect 

By Mr. Ballard:

Q. Mrs. Wilson, I would like for you to picture, if you 
can, and then give us your true answer—do you feel that 
if East High School, for example, with the people who 
live around the community, white and negro, around East 
High School—do you feel that if there were no split ses­
sion, and the faculty was integrated, that it would be more 
likely that white children also would attend East High

- 4 7 2 -
School? A. I do. And I think that’s one of the reasons 
that they don’t.

Q. In other words, you feel that the faculty, that if 
the faculty was integrated that they would not choose to 
go across the county somewhere else to school, but would 
go to a school nearest them? A. That’s right.

Q. But I believe you have already stated that they 
wouldn’t go to a split session school ? A. No, they wouldn’t.

Q. Mrs. Wilson, do you believe that is true with refer­
ence to all the other schools in the system, other negro 
schools? Do you feel that the faculties, that if the faculties 
were integrated—

Mr. Manhein: Well, we are going to object if 
he is going to encompass the whole county.

The Court: Well, if she can give an opinion about 
her own school, I  guess she can give an opinion about 
all of them.

By Mr. Ballard:

Q. Do you feel that if all the schools were integrated 
as to faculty and there were no split seasons, do you feel



66a

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Redirect

—473—
that they would all operate as you say you think this 
school would operate under those conditions? A. I do.

Q. That is the children would choose a school, not be­
cause of the racial teacher background, but for other 
reasons? A. Yes.

The Court: Mrs. Wilson, you know quite a few 
people in Madison County, and we are starting, I 
believe, on the second year under this plan for 
desegregation of the Madison County schools. We 
had the first eight grades, I  believe, last year, and 
we are having the last four grades this year, that’s 
correct, isn’t it?

The Witness: Yes, sir.
The Court: Do you know of any negro parent or 

negro child who has decided not to go to a school 
that has been a white school because it has an all- 
white faculty?

The Witness: Yes, I have heard parents talk 
that they would send their children—they wouldn’t 
send their children there because they don’t have

— 474—

any negro teachers there.
The Court: You have actually heard people say­

ing that?
The Witness: They have been discussing it, just 

like we talk.
The Court: Why is it that they feel that way 

about it? How many negro teachers would you 
think that you would take in a school before you 
wouldn’t have that feeling?



67a

The Witness: Well, at least half the faculty, or 
one or two, I think, would help make them feel 
better on that basis.

The Court: All right.

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Recross

Recross Examination by Mr. Manhein:

Q. Who have you heard say that they wouldn’t send 
their children to a particular school because the faculties 
were all-white? A. Well, we were discussing it in church, 
just a group of ladies and gentlemen discussing it.

Q. Who said it, though?

Mr. Williams: Of course, I object to this, if Your
- 4 7 5 -

Honor please, in view of the vehemence with which 
the Board of Education is rather oddly insisting 
on segregated assignment of teachers. I  think it 
might jeopardize somebody up there. I object.

The Court: Do you think that’s a proper basis 
for the objection?

Mr. Williams: Yes, sir. It might jeopardize some­
body’s job up there, if Your Honor please. In this 
case we have a plaintiff who was fired from her job 
in Madison County Hospital after this suit was 
filed.

The Court: In other words, it is your contention 
that when the witness testifies that she heard some 
people say that they would not send their children 
there because there was an all-white faculty, that 
Mr. Manhein should be prevented from asking her 
to tell him who said it?

Mr. Williams: Yes, sir; because these people 
might well not want to have their names exposed



68a

here. I think I put on proof, Your Honor, before,
— 476—

that one of the plaintiffs in this lawsuit was fired 
the month after, the week after this suit was brought, 
and I respectfully object to this Board being al­
lowed to dig out the names of negroes, on whom 
they may thereby pull strings that because their 
jobs could be lost when they are contending on this 
very question—

The Court: Are you making an argument under 
the Rules of Evidence, Mr. Williams?

Mr. Williams: No, sir. I just want to make my 
objection clear.

The Court: Well, the objection is overruled. We 
try to try these cases under the Rules of Evidence, 
and if anything like what you are talking about 
occurs, that can be a ground for a separate com­
plaint, but certainly we cannot cut off counsel and 
prevent him from cross-examining a witness because 
of statements by you that it might lead to something 
that wouldn’t be proper.

Mr. Williams: I respectfully except, Your Honor.
— 477—

The Court: That’s the only way you can test a 
witness’ credibility in this situation, is to ask them 
to be specific. Go ahead, Mr. Manhein.

By Mr. Manhein:

Q. Would you answer the question? A. My husband 
and I for one was talking, and I said that I wouldn’t want 
my children to go to a school where there is no colored 
teachers.

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Recross



69a

Q. That’s your feeling? A. That’s right.
Q. Why not? A. Well, I think that they should hire 

some colored teachers there if there are going to be 
colored children going there. There should be colored 
teachers there, and I think it would help enlighten the 
children. They would have the feeling of going under a 
colored teacher the same as a white teacher.

Q. You wouldn’t be apprehensive about the safety or 
welfare of your child? A. No. I think they would be well 
treated.

Q. By the white teachers? A. I do.
—478—

Q. Why, then, would you be reluctant? A. Well, I just 
think there should be some negro teachers in a white school, 
as well as negro children going to a white school.

The Court: We understand that is what you think 
should be done, but what we are trying to find out 
is why.

Mr. Williams: I think she has already stated some 
reasons, if Your Honor please.

The Court: Well, she states in a general sort 
of way that she thinks they ought to have negro 
teachers in white schools, but we are trying to find 
out from her what, if any, effect not having negro 
teachers there, how that impedes people from choos­
ing to go to the school.

Mr. Ballard: If Your Honor please, may I make 
this observation? I think she testified on that 
specifically. She said she thought it would improve 
the quality of education for both if there was 
mixed faculty.

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Recross



70a

The Court: The next question is why would it
—479—

improve the quality of education for both.
The Witness: I think the child would see—-in 

other words, just like a child is used to going to 
an all-negro faculty, all-negro teachers, the child 
would have a different outlook on the other race.

The Court: You are talking about the white 
children?

The Witness: The negro and white.
The Court: Go ahead.

By Mr. Manhein:

Q. One further question, and then I will finish.
Have you heard of any incidents where any teacher 

in our county school system has in any way abused or 
mistreated any negro child? A. No, I haven’t.

Q. You haven’t heard of anything like that? A. No, I 
haven’t.

Gladys Wilson—for Plaintiffs—Recross

Mr. Manhein: That is all.
The Court: Step down, and call the next witness.

(Witness excused.)
—480—

Mr. Williams: May it please the Court, before 
we call the next witness, in light of the question 
that counsel has just asked, one of the plaintiffs 
has just called to my attention an instance of such 
abuse, and I didn’t know about it at the time he 
was on the stand, and I would like to put him back 
on and let him satisfy counsel in that regard.

Mr. Manhein: If Your Honor please, I would 
certainly like to know; not from just the standpoint



71a

of this lawsuit, but if anything like that has oc­
curred, we want to know it.

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs— Recalled—Redirect

— 481—

Nathaniel B enson, the said witness, having been pre­
viously duly sworn resumed the stand and testified further 
as fo llow s:

Redirect Examination by Mr. Williams-.

Q. Mr. Benson, you were telling me something about a 
report card received from a white school in the case of 
your child? A. Yes.

Mr. Manhein: I f  Your Honor please, let me make 
this statement and objection. If this is hearsay, I 
am going to object to it. I f  this man has firsthand 
knowledge of the incident, I—

The Court: (Interposing) We can’t tell if it is 
until we have heard him testify.

By Mr. Williams:

Q. Was this your own child? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Your own child brought a report card home? A. 

Yes.
Q. This year? A. Yes.

— 482—

Q. From what school? A. Browns. It was stating on 
there, “Why do you want to handicap your child to send 
her to this school?” , and I can bring that card.

Q. You mean that was put on there in the same hand­
writing that the child’s grades were in? A. Yes.

Q. “Why do you want to handicap this child by sending 
her to this school?” A. Yes.



72a

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs— Recalled—Recross 

Mr. Williams: You may cross-examine.

Recross Examination by Mr. Manhein:

Q. Do you mean to tell this Court and me that that was 
written across the report card! A. Mr. Manhein, I  can 
bring that report card and show it to you. I will bring 
it to your office, if you want me to.

Q. Where is it now? A. The card is at home. My little 
girl go to summer school, and she was on the way to school 
when I left. I was aiming to bring it, and I forgot to get 
it, and I will bring it to your office, if you want to see it.

—483—
Q. I wish you would, but in the meantime—let me ask 

you—was this actually written on the report card itself? 
A. Yes. One of the teachers at Browns School writ it and 
it’s still on there.

Q. How do you know who wrote it on there? A. How 
do I know?

Q. Yes. A. The little girl said she wrote it. Every­
thing’ was in the same handwriting.

Q. Who is the teacher? A. I don’t know the teacher’s 
name.

Q. Your little girl didn’t tell you what teacher it was? 
A. She was in the fifth grade at the time.

Q. But you don’t know who the teacher was? A. The 
teacher’s name is on there, but I can’t recall the teacher’s 
name, but I can bring you the card and show it to you.

Q. When did this happen? A. When school was out.
Q. You mean this past year! A. Right.

—-484—
Q. And you say that you have that report card? A. I 

have the report card now, because I was aiming to bring



73a

it this morning, and the little girl got away, and I couldn’t 
find it. But they have that report card.

Q. And exactly what is the language on it? A. She 
says, “ Why do you want to handicap this kid by sending 
her to this school?” , something like that. I  think I showed 
the card to Dr. Bell.

Q. You say Dr. Bell has seen that card? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And your child told you that the teacher put that 

writing on the report card? A. She told me, hut she 
didn’t have to tell me. I could see it was her handwriting. 
She had wrote more than that on the card.

Q. What else was written on there? A. Her report was 
written all over it. Her name was on it. You can tell 
people’s handwriting. The little girl didn’t write it herself, 
and I didn’t write it.

Mr. Manhein: Well, Your Honor, I  don’t know 
how it would be possible to get that card over here, 
but I would certainly like to know about it.

— 485—
The Witness: Well, you will get it at your office 

as soon as I get home.
The Court: All right, step down.

(Witness excused)

The Court: Call your next witness.
Mr. Williams: Call Mr. Shipp.

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs— Recalled—Recross



74a

Cecil Shipp—-for Plaintiffs—Direct

—486—
Cecil Shipp, the said witness, having been first duly- 

sworn, testified as follows:

Direct Examination by Mr. Williams:

Q. State your name, age and address, please. A. Cecil 
Shipp. I am thirty-nine years old. Denmark, Tennessee.

Q. Is that in Madison County, Tennessee? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you lived in Madison County? A. 

Eighteen years.
Q. What is your occupation? A. Well, both farming 

and public work up until about a year ago, and I was pulled 
off on account of my health condition.

Q. Do you own your own home there in Madison County? 
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you own a farm? A. Well, a two-acre allotment.
Q. What do you farm on that allotment? A. Up until 

this year I was farming okra, but this year I have cotton.
—487—

Q. What area of Madison County is Denmark—west, 
east, north or south? A. West.

Q. Is there quite a bit of cotton farming in the western 
part of Madison County? A. Quite a bit.

Q. Are there any white cotton farmers in that western 
area? A. We have a few white farmers.

Q. Are there any white sharecroppers? A. Not any 
white sharecroppers.

Q. Are there any negroes? A. Very few.
Q. Mostly both the negroes and the white people in your 

area own their own farms, is that correct? A. That’s cor­
rect. Those that don’t own, they rents.

Q. But not on a sharecropping basis—they just rent on 
a fixed fee basis? A. That’s right.



75a

Q. Are you familiar with any other areas of the county 
than your area? A. Yes, sir.

Q. What other areas are you familiar with? A. Den-
—4 8 8 -

mark and Blair Chapel and Sable Garden.
Q. What general geographical area of the county are the 

other places you have mentioned? A. Blair Chapel.
Q. Where is that, south, east, western or northern? A. 

Eastern.
Q. On the other side of the City of Jackson? A. Well, 

it’s combined all around.
Q. Are you familiar with virtually the entire county— 

is that what you are telling me? A. I am familiar with 
that community. We have a large section, the community 
where I live. They are all bound together.

Q. Now, how do most of the people, both negro and 
white, harvest their cotton? A. The last few years most 
of them use the cotton pickers.

Q. Are there very many people who use their children 
to harvest cotton? A. Well, a few do for the reason that 
most of the time the schools be out in the harvest, and 
that’s why most of them have the l’ight to use them, be­
cause they are not going to school anyway.

—489—
Q. Well, is that a necessity, though? Do they need 

those children? A. It is not necessary that they use them. 
It is not necessary now, because most of the people do use 
the cotton pickers.

Q. Now, you are pretty much familiar with the schools 
in that county, in Madison County, Mr. Shipp? A. Well, 
I am pretty familiar.

Q. Do you have a child in school there? A. Well, I 
have four.

Q. You have four children? A. Yes, sir.

Cecil Shipp—for Plaintiffs—Direct



76a

Q. What schools do they attend? A. Well, they attend 
Huntersville School.

Q. That is formerly a white school? A. Yes.
Q. Well, it is still mostly white, isn’t it? A. Oh, yes, sir.
Q. And the other one attends where? A. West High.
Q. Now, that is still a negro school, is it not? A. Yes.

—490—
Q. What grade is he in in West High? A. The eleventh 

grade.
Q. Why didn’t you send him across to North Side? A. 

Well, she will be transferred the next season.
Q. This year is the first opportunity she has had under 

this plan, is that it? A. That’s right.
Q. And you have asked that she he transferred? A. 

That’s right.
Q. Now, there are a whole lot of other parents who are 

still leaving their children in West High School, I guess, 
aren’t they? A. That’s true.

Q. Now, do you know any of the reasons why there are 
still negro parents leaving their children in those negro 
schools? Do you know of the reasons why? A. I can 
state a fact that they have given me. They don’t seem to 
think they will get justice in all-white schools with no 
colored teachers, and they feel like once they get the col­
ored teachers in those schools, they would get more justice.

The Court: Are you saying justice?
The Witness: Yes, sir.

—491—
By Mr. Williams:

Q. Now, let me ask you this: Mr. Shipp, did you know 
that the only schools that have this split season are the 
negro schools? A. That’s right.

Cecil Shipp-—for Plaintiffs—Direct



77a

Q. And by remarkable coincidence those negro schools 
are the only ones that have all-negro faculties, too, are 
they not? A. That’s right.

Q. Now, are there any white children that live in your 
neighborhood? A. Yes, sir.

Q. They live close to these negro schools? A. That’s 
true.

Q. Do they live closer to those than they do to the white 
schools? A. That’s right.

Q. Now, is it your feeling that there would be some of 
these white children who might be more likely to go ahead 
and attend the schools, the negro schools that are closer, 
that is the schools that are now negro schools, if those 
schools had some white teachers on the faculty and if 
they started the same time of the year as any other school

- 4 9 2 -
in the school system? A. It probably be so, yes, sir, I 
believe that.

Q. Do you believe that under present conditions with 
all faces black or brown in those schools and all of those 
schools being the only schools in the system which start 
early in the middle of the summer and have this harvest 
season, do you believe with those conditions happening, 
any white children will ever volunteer to go to those 
schools? A. I  don’t think so.

Q. Mr. Shipp, is it your opinion that a child, that your 
children would learn as much with an all-white faculty 
as they would with a mixed faculty? A. I believe they 
will learn more with a mixed faculty.

Q. Tell the Court why. A. Because they have the privi­
lege and right of getting close friendships with all students 
and also with the teachers too, and I feel like they will 
have a better chance of learning more in their class.

Cecil Shipp—for Plaintiffs—Direct



78a

Q. Well, let me ask you this: I believe that the United 
States is composed of both white and negro people, isn’t

—493—
it? A. Yes, sir.

Q. In your community, in Jackson and Madison County, 
do you have to compete with the white men when you go 
down to sell your cotton? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you have to compete with the white man for jobs-—

Mr. Manhein: Your Honor, I  object.
Mr. Williams: They are insisting that we go to 

this length to try to prove the obvious, and all I 
am attempting to show is that school children will 
have to compete in a world that is a mixed world, 
and I am trying to find out whether it is this man’s 
opinion that an education which exposes them to 
teacher competition and pupil competition on the 
basis of a mixed world, rather than a segregated 
world provides them with a better education.

The Court: We don’t think you have to prove 
that a negro farmer has to compete in selling his 
cotton with white farmers; that is a fact of the 
market place. There is no question about that. They

- 4 9 4 -
have to compete for other jobs.

By Mr. Williams:

Q. State whether or not in your opinion a child who is 
exposed to a racial competition in terms of the people who 
teach him in school will be better or less able to cope with 
racial competition after he graduates than the child who 
is limited to competition of the teachers of only one race 
in providing that education for the child?

Cecil Shipp—for Plaintiffs—Direct



79a

Mr. Manhein: Objection, if Your Honor please, 
on the grounds that that witness is hardly qualified 
to answer that question. Of course, we have been 
letting a lot of this kind of testimony in.

The Court: Well, the Court doesn’t really under­
stand the question. Are you asking this witness 
whether or not a negro child who goes to a school 
that has a mixed faculty gets a better education in 
meeting the competition of the outside world than 
one who goes to a school that has a faculty with all 
whites on it?

— 495—

Mr. Williams: All white or all negro.
The Court: All right. We will let him give an 

opinion on that.

By Mr. Williams:

Q. Did you understand the question? A. I think I do. 
I feel like once the colored student and the white student 
get the same education, I feel like the colored student will 
have the same opportunity when it comes to getting jobs, 
and they will be closer in friendship with one another once 
they complete their education, and I feel like they would 
have a better chance.

Q. If the faculties were mixed? A. That’s right.

Mr. Williams: Cross-examine.

Cecil Shipp—for Plaintiffs—Cross

Cross-Examination by Mr. Manhein:

Q. You said something while ago that I am not sure I 
understood the word—did you say that you thought a child 
would get more justice if the faculty were mixed? A. Well,



80a

that statement were asked why did the colored people in 
my community feel like it wasn’t right, and I said most 
of them didn’t feel like their children would get justice.

—496—
Q. What do you mean by that? A. I don’t know what 

they mean, but the only thing I could see is they probably 
feel like, you know, if they were enrolled in an all-white 
school, it might be a little difference. I can’t explain what 
they mean about it, but that’s the thing I know that they 
say why they don’t register these children in all-white 
schools.

Q. You have a child now enrolled for this coming year— 
is it North Side? A. North Side, yes, sir.

Q. That used to be an all-white school, did it not? A. 
Yes, sir.

Q. Do you feel like that your child is not going to get 
justice at North Side because the faculty is all-white? A. 
Well, I feel like my child will. I  feel that way about it. I 
feel like she will.

Q. You feel like she will, but you are just saying that 
other folks, your neighbors, maybe they don’t feel that 
way? A. That’s right.

Q. Do you know what they have in mind, or what they
- 4 9 7 -

mean? A. Well, I feel like it’s a new program, and this 
is the first time they have had this opportunity, and they 
are just afraid to take the chance. That’s my feeling about 
it.

Mr. Manhein: All right. That is all, Your Honor.
The Court: Step down, Mr. Shipp.

(Witness excused.)

Cecil Shipp—for Plaintiffs—Cross



81a

The Court : It is 12:30, but we will not break for 
lunch at this time. Call your next witness, Mr. W il­
liams. First, we will have about a five-minute break.

(Recess.)
#  *  #  #  #

— 500—

The trial of the case was resumed after a brief recess, 
at 12:35 o’clock, p. in., when and where evidence was intro­
duced, and proceedings had as follows:

The Court: Call your next witness, Mr. Williams. 
Mr. Williams: Call Mr. Bond.

Walker D. Bond—for Plaintiffs—Direct

— 501-

W alker D. B ond, the said witness, having been first duly 
sworn, testified as fo llow s:

Direct Examination by Mr. Williams:

Q. State your name, age and address and occupation, 
please. A. Walker D. Bond is my name. I am fifty-five 
years old. My address is Route 2, Denmark.

Q. Your occupation, sir. A. Farming.
Q. Is Denmark in Madison County, Tennessee? A. Den­

mark, Tennessee, yes, sir.
Q. That is within the County of Madison, is it not? A. 

Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have school children? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many? A. I have two going now.
Q. What are their ages and what schools do they attend? 

A. One goes to West High and the other goes to Lane 
College.

Q. The one going to West High is in what grade? A.
- 502-

Eleventh grade.



82a

Q. Is he entering the eleventh grade next year? A. He 
is entering the twelfth grade.

Q. Entering his final year in high school? A. Right.
Q. Now, Mr. Bond, how long have you lived in Madison 

County? A. All my life.
Q. Have you been a farmer all your life? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What kind of farming do you do? What crops do 

you grow? A. Cotton, corn and peas.
Q. How many acres of cotton do you have? A. I have 

nineteen acres of cotton this year.
Q. Are you fairly familiar with cotton farming operations 

in the entire County of Madison? A. I think so.
Q. Is sharecropping a widespread institution now adays 

in Madison County? A. No, sir. The sharecroppers are 
all about cut out now. They are not using any sharecroppers 
very much.

—503—
Q. Just explain to the Court how cotton is grown and 

harvested up there, by what type of people, property 
owners, renters, or what? A. Well, the property owners 
now have begun to work their crops, and they premerge, 
and they use cotton pickers. There has been about three 
that has been purchased in about a year in our community.

Q. By negro farmers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You don’t use little children to do cotton picking 

now adays up there? A. No, sir. Well, actually the ma­
chines pick cotton now, and we have found out that it is 
cheaper to pick our cotton, harvest our cotton with a picker. 
It’s cheaper.

Q. You mean it is actually more economical for any 
farmer? A. Yes, sir.

Q. To harvest his cotton with a picker than by hand 
labor? A. Absolutely, yes, sir.

Walker D. Bond—for Plaintiffs—Direct



83a

Q. Now, you are familiar with the split season in the 
schools up there? A. I am.

—504—
Q. Is that used in any of the white schools of Madison 

County?

Walker D. Bond—for Plaintiffs—Direct

The Court: That is stipulated. We know that, 
Mr. Williams.

Mr. Williams: All right, sir.

Q. Mr. Bond, you are also familiar with the fact that in 
all of these negro schools which have the split seasons, 
the teachers are all negro and in all of the white schools the 
teachers are all white? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, in your community are there any children living 
near these negro schools? Are there some white children 
living near some of these negro schools? A. In my com­
munity I think it’s about one or two families right in that 
community.

Q. But in other areas are there many white children 
who are living close to negro schools ? A. Right.

Q. Now, is it your opinion that if these negro schools had 
white teachers on the faculty and this split season were 
eliminated so that they start the same time as all the 
other schools, that some of these white children would he

—5 0 5 -
more or less likely to come on and go to the negro schools 
rather than go a greater distance to the white schools ? Do 
you understand my question? A. Yes, sir, I understand.

Q. I am asking you whether you feel like the white chil­
dren would be more likely to come to negro schools if you 
had mixed faculties, and if they started the same time as 
other schools? A. I do.



84a

Q. You feel that they would—you feel, then, that the 
segregated faculties tend to keep some white children 
from coming to the negro schools? A. Right.

Q. Now, Mr. Bond, based on your statement regarding the 
harvesting, is there any need for the School Board to keep 
opening these negro schools early and letting the children 
out in the middle of September for harvesting operations? 
Is there any need for that now in the community? A. No, 
sir. Ten years ago it was—we thought it was. But now 
the cotton is being harvested by machines, and we just 
don’t need the kids to pick the cotton now.

—506—
Q. Are there white farmers up there too? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do they have children? A. Yes, sir, there is one or 

two families in our community.
Q. I mean in the entire county there are a lot of white 

farmers up there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they have children up there, do they not? A. 

Right.
Q. They are not turning out any white schools up there 

for harvesting? A. No, sir.

Mr. Williams: That is all.
Just one minute, Your Honor.
I do have another question.

Q. Have any of these white farmers or sharecroppers 
kept their children out of school to go to these, elected to 
attend, elected for their children to attend these schools 
where they had the split season as far as you know? A. 
No, sir.

Mr. W illiams: I believe that is all.

Walker D. Bond—for Plaintiffs—Direct

— 507—



85a

Cross-Examination by Mr. Manhein:

Q. You said while ago that it is more economical to pick 
cotton with a machine than it is by hand? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Isn’t it true that there are a substantial number of 
families, negro families in particular, that use their chil­
dren, have their children pick cotton during harvest time? 
A. Yes, sir, they have been, but the machine now is getting 
so plentiful in that community, and they are finding out that 
the cotton picked by machine is picked so much faster and 
is picked so much cheaper—fifteen dollars I think per bale 
cheaper than you can hire it picked by hand.

Q. You mean it is cheaper to hire a machine than it is 
to hire an individual or a group of individuals to pick 
your cotton? A. Yes, sir.

Q. But it is not cheaper to hire a machine than it is to 
have your children pick cotton for you, is it? A. Go over

—508—
that again.

Q. You are saying, as I understand it, that, it is cheaper, 
more economical to hire a machine to pick cotton than it 
would be to hire people? A. That’s right.

Q. What about your children picking cotton? Obviously, 
that would be cheaper than the machine, if you were util­
izing your children for cotton picking purposes? A. Yes, 
that’s true. Within two years it is not going to be but 
very little hand picked cotton.

Q. Within a couple of years? A. Yes.
Q. Now, at the present time could you give the Court 

any idea about how many of the negro farm families per­
centage-wise, we will say, are having their children pick 
cotton during the harvest season? About how many would 
you say? Would you say as many as half? A. Well, yes, 
it has been as many as half.

Walker D. Bond—for Plaintiffs—Cross



86a

Q. I am not talking about in the past. I mean now, this 
year. A. No, sir, it’s not.

Q. Well, about how many, would you say? A. Because
—509—

the farm owner now is getting a cotton picker, and he is 
not giving the sharecropper, not using the sharecropper. 
It is not but one or two or three sharecroppers. He has 
all the farm and doesn’t have any sharecroppers. He is 
having his cotton picked by machine and, therefore, the 
children don’t have any cotton to pick unless they pick for 
some little small farmer and that farmer, he is opening 
his eyes, and he is finding out that he can’t operate without 
a machine.

Q. Now, you said a moment ago that as many as half 
of the negro families use their children to pick cotton, or 
used to. Now, at the present time, about how many do 
that—what would the percentage be? A. Well, I guess a 
third of them.

Q. Do you have any children of school age yourself? A. 
Yes, sir.

Q. And what schools are they in? A. One is in Lane 
College and the other at West High.

Q. West High? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where is the child that is in West High—where is 

that child going to school next year? A. He is finishing up
—5 1 0 -

West High.
Q. He will graduate this time? A. He will this time. 

He has one year there. He is going into the twelfth grade. 
He will finish next spring at West High.

Q. Do you think that the negro parents would be reluc­
tant to send their child to a school where the faculty was 
all-white? I am talking about the school where the student

Walker D. Bond—for Plaintiffs—Cross



body was mixed, but the faculty was all white, would they 
be apprehensive about that in any way, or reluctant about 
it in any way, about sending the school child to that kind 
of school? A. Where they are all white?

Q. Where the school is integrated, where the students 
are negro and white, but where the faculty is all white, 
would you have any reluctance about sending your child to 
that kind of school? A. Well, it has been two or three 
approached me about that very question. One said he 
wouldn’t like that—he didn’t want to send his kid to a 
white school, because they didn’t have any colored teachers 
in that school.

Q. Why would that deter him? Why would that make
— 511—

him hesitate to send his child to that school? A. X wouldn’t 
know. He just told me that. He was talking to me about 
it.

Q. You would not hesitate to do it yourself, would you? 
A. Well, 1 would rather it be integrated, have the teachers 
and students integrated.

Q. I know that is what you would prefer, but you wouldn’t 
be concerned about the teachers mistreating the children, 
would you? A. No, sir.

Q. And would you feel that the child was going to learn 
just as much at a school where the faculty was all-white? 
A. Me, personally, yes, I think so.

Mr. Manhein: That is all.

Walker D. Bond—for Plaintiffs—Redirect

Redirect Examination by Mr. Williams:

Q. Mr. Bond, would you think that the teachers would 
improve themselves and improve their competence as much 
where they are all white and all negro, as opposed to where 
they are mixed, integrated? A. Yes, I  do.



88a

Q. Now, what do you mean by that— “Yes, I do.” ? A.
— 512—

I f  the faculty were integrated, that would—just where I 
happen to be the custodian-—

Q. You are the custodian of a county school? A. Yes. 
There are twenty-two teachers there.

Q. Which school? A. Denmark. If it wrere just one 
white teacher there, it would change the picture.

Q. What do you mean by “ change the picture” ? A. I 
think each teacher on that faculty would do a better job.

Q. In terms of the teachers going away and studying in 
the summer and improving their professional competency, 
do you feel that integrating would have any—

Mr. Manhein: I f  Your Honor please, I  don’t be­
lieve this witness is qualified to get into that field.

The Court: Well, I think the question was leading, 
to say the least.

Mr. Manhein: It certainly was, and I don’t believe 
it is proper.

The Court: Just ask him why he thinks that having 
one white teacher on the faculty at Denmark would 
raise the level of the teaching.

— 513—

The Witness: That’s right.
The Court: Why do you think that?
The Witness: Well, I just think it would just 

have a bearing on other teachers in some way. I am 
not able to tell you.

By Mr. Williams:

Q. If they had some negro teachers at these white schools, 
do you feel like that would help raise the competence? A.

Walker D. Bond—for Plaintiffs—Redirect



89a

I believe it would. I think it would help the teachers, and it 
would help—they would get closer together, and they would 
understand one another.

Q. Would they understand the mixed student body they 
were teaching perhaps a little better too, if they were mixed 
themselves? A. Eight, yes, sir.

Q. Do you feel like white teachers— state what, if any— 
I would like to withdraw what I previously said and ask 
this :

In terms of disciplinary problems with pupils in inte­
grated schools, that is where negro pupils are mixed with 
white pupils, do you feel that the ability of the teacher 
to deal with disciplinary problems affecting negro pupils 
might be facilitated -where there were negroes on the faculty

—514—
as opposed to wdiere the faculty was all-white? A. Yes, 
sir.

Q. You do? A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. I forgot to ask you how much land you own. A. A 

hundred and sixty-five acres.

Mr. Williams: That is all.

Walker D. Bond—for Plaintiffs—Recross

Recross Examination by Mr. Manhein:

Q. Well, we made an expert out of you on every subject, 
but now we have gotten into the question of disciplinary 
problems.

Do you think— do you know what I mean by disciplinary 
problems? Do you knowT what the -word discipline means? 
A. Yes, sir, I understand.

Q. What about a situation where you had a colored 
teacher with predominantly white students, would you have



90a

any discipline problems in a situation like that? A. No, sir, 
I wouldn’t think so.

Q. You don’t think so? A. I wouldn’t think so.

— 515—
Mr. Manhein: All right, that is all, Your Honor.
The Court: All right, step down, Mr. Bond.

(Witness excused.)

Mr. Manhein: Your Honor, before recessing for 
noon, I would like to call this witness back to the 
stand who testified about this report card incident. 
I had no knowledge whatever of that sort of thing, 
and I want to inquire of him who taught his child 
in that school, so I can look into that and perhaps 
summon the teacher.

The Court: I don’t believe he knows, because if 
he had known who taught the child, he would know 
who sent the report card, and he says he didn’t 
know who sent the report card, so we assume he 
doesn’t know the name of the teacher who taught his 
child. You can put him back on and ask if you 
like.

Mr. Ballard: If Your Honor please, we would 
like to make this observation—that Mr. Manhein

—5 1 6 -
will be bound by the testimony of this witness. He 
is calling him back.

The Court: Mr. Manhein doesn’t mind being
bound. I think you are wrong about the rule. I think 
this is just further cross-examination directed to part 
of his testimony in chief. He is not going into a new 
field here.

Call him back.

Walker D. Bond—for Plaintiffs—Recross



91a

— 517—
Nathaniel, B enson, the said witness, having been previ­

ously duly sworn, resumed the stand, and further testified 
as follows:

Further Cross-Examination by Mr. Manhein:

Q. I merely wanted to ask you who your child’s teachers 
were at Browns School? A. As I before stated, I don’t 
know who the teacher was. I know his name is on the 
card, but I can’t recall. I don’t know him, but I just know 
the name is on the card.

Q. Did your child have more than one teacher f A. She 
just had one teacher in the fifth grade.

The Court: She finished the fifth grade in May! 
The Witness: Yes.
The Court: And you are talking about the report 

card she got when she finished the fifth grade ?
The Witness: The report card she brought home 

after school was out.

By Mr. Manhein:

Q. And you don’t know the name of the teacher? A. No,
—518—

I don’t know the name of the teacher. The name of the 
teacher is on the report card.

Q. But you don’t recall who it was? A. No.
Q. Now, do you have any way of getting that report card 

over to Memphis? A. Today?
Q. Yes. A. No, I don’t have any way of getting it over 

here today. Just like I before stated, I was aiming to bring 
the card, but the kid left for school before I left, and by

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs— Recalled—Cross



92a

her leaving I couldn’t find the report card. She would know 
where it was.

Q. If I could arrange for somebody to bring it over 
here, can you arrange for me to get it from whoever is 
there? A. There is no one there. There is no one at home. 
But that report card will be at your office, if you want it 
there.

Q. I want to see it. A. All right.

Mr. Manhein: If Your Honor please, in connec­
tion with this matter, I don’t know how material the

—5 1 9 -
Court may deem that sort of thing to be. It is the 
first time that I have ever heard of it, and we have- 
had no incidents whatever of this kind that we had 
any knowledge of, and I am caught completely by 
surprise by it, and I would like the opportunity to 
investigate it and get the teacher in question.

The Court: Well, the witness says he will make it 
available to you in your office, and when he does that, 
you file it as part of the record in this cause.

Mr. Manhein: I f  the Court please, if the Court 
deems the incident material, then I would like to 
bring the teacher in question in and find out if one 
of our teachers has done such a thing. But by that 
time the hearing is going to be over.

The Court: We have to finish this some day. Why 
don’t you do this, Mr. Manhein: If the witness here, 
Mr. Benson, brings the report card to your office and 
you file it, then you get up an affidavit from the

—5 2 0 -
teacher involved and file that.

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs—Recalled—Cross



93a

Mr. Manhein: All right, sir. As I say, it caught 
me completely by surprise, and it is difficult to be­
lieve.

Mr. Williams: May it please the Court, I think we 
would object to the affidavit. Of course, we were 
taken by surprise too, because the plaintiff hadn’t 
told me about this.

The Court: What do you suggest we do?
Mr. Williams: I was wondering maybe if Mr. Ben­

son could get to Jackson, could call up there and find 
out about it, and maybe go and get it. I like Mr. 
Manhein’s suggestion of having that thing brought 
down here today, if possible.

The Court: If you gentlemen can arrange that, 
that’s fine with the Court. The witness says no one 
is at his home.

The Witness: There is no one that will be there 
until about 3:30.

—521—
Mr. Williams: Well, in that event, if Your Honor 

please, I submit if Mr. Manhein files an affidavit—
The Court: (Interposing) You can file a cross­

affidavit.
Mr. Ballard: If Your Honor please, I really dis­

like the idea of an affidavit.
The Court: The only relevance of this would be on 

this issue of the necessity of integration of the 
faculty to bring about fairness, and we don’t think 
it is going to have too much weight on that issue, 
because of the fact, if it is a fact, that one white 
teacher did do a thing like that, that certainly 
wouldn’t be very strong proof that overall the white

Nathaniel Benson—for Plaintiffs—Recalled—Cross



94a

faculties are not treating these negro children all 
right, and we doubt also that the infusion of some 
negro members on a faculty would stop them from 
doing it, if they were doing it. So I think we can 
leave it at that, Mr. Manhein.

Mr. Manhein: All right, Your Honor. I was just 
concerned about it.

—522—
The Court: I think as an administrative matter, 

you certainly ought to follow up on it.
Mr. Manhein: Yes, sir.
The Court: All right. You may step down, Mr. 

Benson.

(Witness excused)

R. B. Vann—for Plaintiffs—Direct

The Court: Call your next witness.
Mr. Williams: Call Mr. Vann.

—523—
R. B. V ann, the said witness, having been first duly 

sworn, testified as follow s:

D irect Exam ination by Mr. W illiam s:

Q. State your full name, please. A. R. B. Vann.
Q. Your age, address and occupation? A. Age, sixty- 

one; occupation, farmer.
Q. Where do you live? A. Jackson, Route 1.
Q. What part of Madison County is that in? A. The 

third district.
Q. Is that the northern, western, eastern or southern 

part of the county? A. It looks to me like it would be the 
western part.



95a

The Court: Are you out there around Denmark 
somewhere.

The Witness: Between Jackson and Bells.
The Court: That’s northwest.

B y M r. W illiam s:

Q. IIow long have you lived in Madison County? A. 
Been there all my life.

— 524—
Q. Have you been a farmer all your life? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Do you own any land? A. No, sir; just a lot out 

there.
Q. How big is your lot? A. Two acres in the place I 

got now.
Q. What do you grow on it? A. Well, I just grow a 

little truck and a little bit of cotton and works cotton around 
for other people.

Q. Do you earn your living farming? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you use your children to harvest cotton? A. Well, 

when I had some there, I used them a little.
Q. Did you have to use them to harvest your cotton? 

A. Well, about ten years back or a little further I could 
have did without them, but I used them pretty handy then, 
but nowT I wouldn’t have to use them.

Q. Why? A. Because everything now is done by 
machinery.

Q. Even for the small farmer like you, is that right? 
A. Yes, sir, most of them—’cept there ain’t many small 
farmers out in our part.

Q. Are they colored and white? A. The biggest part of
— 525—

them is white, and the colored folks do some of the labor 
work.

R. B. Vann—for Plaintiffs—Direct



96a

Q. But you mean there may be negroes working for white 
farmers, but no negroes out there depending for a living 
themselves on the farm? A. No, sir, not many. They are 
working mostly for the whites.

Q. So if they are using their children, it is actually— 
they are actually putting money in the pockets of these 
white farmers, is that correct? A. Well, they could do 
without the children, because the little farmer what is do­
ing it for hisself could gather what little he had, and this 
other he would just be day-laboring for the whites, mostly.

Q. Bo the white farmers pay children independently, the 
negro children, when they work on a farm, or do they just 
pay their parents? A. Well, they pay the children when 
they work.

Q. What I am asking you— do you understand what I 
mean now? Let’s say that a farmer hires a negro parent 
and gets five children along with the parent, sort of like the 
old slavery days—

— 526—
The Court: Mr. Williams, I think you are going 

a little too far there.
Mr. Williams: I apologize, Your Honor. I know 

it is a little out of decorum.
The Court: He answered your question very di­

rectly. You asked if they did employ children, did 
they pay them separately, and the witness said yes. 
J ust ask the question directly.

B y Mr. W illiam s ■.

Q. Bid you understand what I was asking? When a white 
farmer hires a negro and also his children were to pick 
cotton, do the children get paid as well as the fathers ? A.

R. B. Vann■—for Plaintiffs—Direct



Well, if the child pick a hundred pounds, they pay the—• 
the parent might get the money, but they pay for that 
hundred pounds the child picks.

Q. In other words, they pay on a pound rate? A. Yes, 
sir, that’s the way it is in cotton.

Q. Now, how much do they pay them per hundred 
pounds? A. Well, they have different prices.

Q. What I am after is what average wage does a negro 
cotton-picker make out in your district of the county? A.

—527—
Well, they start about $2.00 a hundred.

Q. $2.00 a hundred? A. Yes.
Q. And how many pounds, ordinarily, can a man pick 

in a day? A. Well, that depends what kind a picker he is.
Q. So that all this depends very much actually on the 

industry and ability of the individual, does it not? A. 
That’s right.

Q. And even back ten years ago when you said that you 
actually needed your children to pick cotton, you are basing 
that, to some extent, on your own laziness, are you not? 
A. Back about ten years ago, a little further, if a fellow 
farmed, he could plant all the cotton he wanted, and after 
the thing got like it did, well, then, the big landlord, then 
he come to planting cotton, so that make a person now do 
without his children. See, it is machinery work now too.

Q. The big landlords are using mostly machinery? A. 
That’s right.

Q. Are you familiar with the fact that all the negro
—5 2 8 -

schools up there have all negro faculties and all white 
schools have white faculties? A. Yes, sir.

Q. White teachers and principals in white schools and

R. B. Vann—f or Plaintiffs—Direct



98a

negro  teachers and principals in the negro schools? A. 
That’s right.

Q. Now, are there white children who live close to the 
negro schools in your neighborhood up there, are there 
some? A. It’s some stays about a mile and a half from 
there.

Q. In your opinion, would these white children—would 
they be more likely to attend negro schools that they live 
close to if those schools had mixed faculties and started at 
the same time of the year as all other schools? A. Well, I 
believe they would, if you had mixed faculties, because I 
believe they would— some of them would come to that 
school.

Q. In your opinion, does a child learn as much where all 
the teachers in a school are segregated, of a different race, 
as they would if all the teachers were—

Mr. Manhein: I object, Your Honor. I think I 
should have been objecting to this line of question-

— 529—
ing all day, but now I do want to object, and I am 
objecting primarily in the interest of time.

The Court: Well, we think we will save more time 
to overrule your objection, Mr. Manhein, so go right 
ahead, Mr. Williams.

B y  M r. W illiam s:

Q. In your opinion, would a child learn as much with 
teachers all of the same race as he would if teachers were 
desegregated? A. I believe they would learn more with 
mixed teachers.

Q. Why? A. Well, the first thing he would learn this

R. B. Vann—for Plaintiffs—Direct



99a

say it—you know, he wouldn’t be afraid of the white in a 
way. They would come more acquainted with one another 
and probably it would be some children—well, we might get 
closer. The colored wouldn’t be so far behind, and they 
would make them kind of learn a little more.

Q. What you mean is that they would compete, wouldn’t 
they? A. With one another, yes.

—530—
Q. And it would improve both of them, the education both 

were receiving? A. That’s what I believe it would do.
Q. You believe that’s applicable to the teachers as well 

as to the pupils? A. Sure. It would work either way.

Mr. Williams: That is all.

R. B. Vann—for Plaintiffs—Cross

Cross-Exam ination by Mr. M anhein :

Q. Did I understand you to say that there wasn’t any 
families, negro farm families who needed their children to 
help them pick cotton? A. They don’t just need them. 
They would use them, but I don’t think they just need them.

Q. Why do they use them, if they don’t need them? A. 
Well, they ain’t doing nothing else.

Q. What community do you live in? A. Well, I lives 
in Adair Community. You know where that is at, don’t you?

Q. What is the school that it is close to? A. St. John 
School is the closest to me.

Q. And there are not any families out there in that area
—531—

who need their children to pick cotton? A. Well, they can 
use them, but just to say they need them, they don’t need 
them, because most of them, as I said, just have a little 
small crop. Now, these large farmers of cotton mostly be­



100a

longs—the large farms mostly belongs to the whites in the 
community I live in.

Q. All right. Let me ask you one more question. A. All 
right.

Q. You think that the negro parents would be reluctant 
or hesitant to send their children to integrated schools, that 
is a school where the pupils were integrated, had both negro 
and white, if they had a white faculty there? In other 
words, you understand that some of our schools like West- 
over is— they have a number of negro and white students 
going to Westover, do they not? A. Well, I have heard 
something about it, but I just don’t know, because I haven’t 
been up that away.

Q. Suppose they have both negro and white children, but 
only a white faculty. Now, do you think that the negro 
parents would be reluctant or afraid to send a child to a 
school with an all-white faculty? A. Well, I don’t know, 
but I know I wouldn’t.

Q. You wouldn’t? A. I wouldn’t be scared, no.
— 532—

Q. Well, your feelings are about the only one you know 
about? A. My feelings are the onliest ones I know about 
being scared.

Mr. Manhein: All right. That is all.
The Court: It is about time for lunch. We have 

another motion here this afternoon after we finish 
this one, so we will adjourn court until 2 :00 o’clock.

(Whereupon, court was adjourned at 1:00 o ’clock, 
p. m., until 2:00 o’clock, p. m.)

R. B. Vann— for Plaintiffs—Cross



101a

Floyd Jackson—for Plaintiffs—Direct

—533—
A fternoon Session

Tlie trial of the case was resumed on this date, Friday, 
June 25th, 1965, at 2 :00 o’clock, p. m,. when and where evi­
dence was introduced and proceedings had as follows:

The Court: Call your next witness, Mr. Williams. 
Mr. Williams: Call Mr. Jackson.

F loyd Jackson, the said witness, having been first duly 
sworn, testified as follows:

D irect Exam ination by Mr. W illiam s:

Q. This is Mr. Floyd Jackson? A. Yes, sir.
Q. State your age, address and occupation. A. My age 

is fifty-seven.
Q. Where do you live? A. Madison County.
Q. What portion of Madison County? A. The east por­

tion.
— 534—

Q. What do you do, sir? A. Farm.
Q. How long have you been farming? A. All my life.
Q. How long have you lived in Madison County? A. 

All my life.
Q. Are you a married man? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have a family? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you have school children in your family? A. One. 
Q. What school does he attend? A. He has been attend­

ing East High the last few years.
Q. What grade is he in? A. Tenth.
Q. Is he registered for East High again this year or for 

one of the white high schools? A. No, sir; North Side, a 
white high school.



102a

Q. Now, how big is your farm? A. Twenty-nine acres.
Q. Do you own it? A. Yes, sir.

— 535—

Q. Do you grow cotton? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many acres? A. Only six on the farm there.
Q. You mean you grow some more acres somewhere else? 

A. That’s right.
Q. Where? A. I grow some with my brother-in-law.
Q. You rent an acreage from your brother-in-law? A. 

Yes, sir.
Q. How many acres do you grow over there? A. Four.
Q. You grow a total of ten acres of cotton? A. That’s 

right.
Q. How many bales does that produce? A. Well, some­

where around ten or twelve bales of cotton.
Q. How do you harvest that cotton crop? A. We hand 

picks it.
Q. Are you using machinery yet? A. No, sir.
Q. Do you use your children in connection with harvest­

ing of that cotton, Mr. Jackson? A. Well, I do when the 
school is out.

— 536—

Q. Is it necessary for you to use your children in con­
nection with harvesting of that cotton? A. No, sir, it is 
not necessary.

Q. Why do you use them? A. Well, I use them because 
the school is out and nothing else for them to do.

Q. You use them rather than have them running up and 
down the road playing? A. Yes.

Q. Are there other children of other negroes in your 
neighborhood who do nothing but run up and down the 
road during this harvest season? A. That’s right.

Floyd Jackson—for Plaintiffs—Direct



103a

Q. Is there any substantial need out in that community 
of Madison County for the schools to let out so as to pro­
vide the necessary things for the negro families out there? 
A. No, sir, there is not any need of it.

Q. Now, you are familiar with the fact that the negro 
schools have all-negro teachers and the white schools have 
all-white teachers? A. That’s right.

Q. Are there white children living in the neighborhood
— 537—

near you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Close to the negro schools? A. That’s right.
Q. In your opinion, would some of those white children, 

all of whom are now attending white schools, come and 
attend those negro schools in the neighborhood where they 
lived, if the teachers in those negro schools were mixed and 
the term started the same time as the other schools in the 
neighborhood? A. I didn’t understand your question.

Q. I said, in your opinion, would it be more likely that 
some of those white children who live close to the negro 
schools would go to school there, if the faculties were mixed 
by race and the schools started at the same time that the 
other schools started in the county? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know, or have you heard any expressions 
made with regard to the reasons why the negroes w*ho do 
not send their children to white schools do not do so ? A. I 
don’t know.

Mr. Manhein: I object.
The Court: Well, he said he didn’t know.

Mr. Williams: That is all.
The Court: All right, Mr. Manhein.

Floyd Jackson—for Plaintiffs—Direct

— 538—



104a

Cross-Exam ination by Mr. M anhein:

Q. Are there any negro farm families in Madison County 
who need, for economic reasons, money reasons, who need 
their children to pick cotton during harvest time! A. No, 
sir, I wouldn’t think so.

Q. You don’t think if we kept the schools open and none 
of the children were allowed to pick cotton that it wouldn’t 
adversely affect anybody? A. No, sir, not too bad.

Q. Beg your pardon! A. No, sir, not too bad.
Q. Well, are there many families who actually use their 

children to pick cotton? A. No, sir.
Q. Percentage-wise, could you give us any idea about 

what percent of the families do actually use their children 
for cotton-picking? A. May 1 say it is not that many col-

— 539—
ored families that are just actually farming for themselves.

Q. Well, those who are farming, do you have any idea 
what percentage of those who are farming actually use their 
children? A. No, sir, I do not.

Q. Do you use yours? A. Yes, sir, when the school is 
out.

Q. If you did not use your children, how would you pick 
your cotton? A. Well, I would get a cotton picker to 
pick it.

Q. And you would have to pay for that? A. That’s 
right.

Q. And, of course, you wouldn’t earn as much from your 
crop as you do now? A. No, sir.

Q. How much would it cost you if you didn’t utilize your 
children, didn’t use your children? A. Well, I  haven’t 
definitely figured up how much it would cost me if I didn’t.

Floyd Jackson—for Plaintiffs—Cross



105a

Q. Well, you grow ten or twelve bales a year. Can’t you 
tell us about how much it would cost to pick ten or twelve

- 5 4 0 -
bales of cotton? A. Well, I would have to figure that up. 
Just rough estimating, it would he somewhere maybe 
around a hundred dollars or more.

Q. About how much? A. A hundred dollars or more.
Q. You have a child that is enrolled in North Side High 

School? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What grade is he in? A. The tenth.
Q. Now, North Side has an all-white faculty, does it not? 

A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you have no concern or apprehension about your 

child going out to North Side with an all-white faculty, do 
you? A. Well, yes, sir.

Q. What are you worried about? A. Well, I am not 
worried, but if they had mixed faculty, that would be more 
better on the child, I would think.

Q. In what way? A. Well, it would be better in this 
w ay: It would be more getting together, more acquaintance,

—541—
if they would come up in life together.

Q. You mean in a social way, that they might get along 
better socially? A. That’s right.

Q. But from an educational standpoint, do you think the 
children would get just as good an education?

Mr. Williams: Well, I object to that, if Your 
Honor please.

The Court: Don’t you think he is qualified to an­
swer this question if he is qualified to answer the 
questions you asked him?

Floyd Jackson—for Plaintiffs—Cross



106a

Mr. Williams: I think he is now trying to draw 
something out of the witness that he is not qualified 
to answer.

The Court: Objection overruled.

B y Mr. M anhein:

Q. From the standpoint of your child learning in school, 
education, do you think he will get just as good an educa­
tion out there with an all-white faculty as he would with 
a mixed faculty? A. No, sir, I wouldn’t think so in a way. 
If it was a mixed faculty, as I say, it would have more 
tendency to help the child not be bashful, or something like

— 542—
that, and he would learn more and better.

Q. Not be bashful. Well, there are both negro and white 
students in that school, are there not, or will be this fall? 
In any event, you don’t have any fears or apprehensions 
of any kind about your child’s welfare or safety, about 
your child being mistreated at the hands of the white teach­
ers, do you? A. No, sir.

Mr. Manhein: That is all, Your Honor.
Air. Williams: One or two more questions.

Floyd Jackson—for Plaintiffs—-Redirect

R edirect Exam ination by Mr. W illiam s:

Q. Mr. Jackson, approximately how much does cotton 
sell for a bale? A. A  hundred and forty-five or fifty dol­
lars.

Q. And you have testified, I believe, if you had a cotton 
picker machine to pick it, that would cost about a hundred 
dollars for the twelve bales that you produce, is that right? 
A. That’s what I did say, but it would cost more than that.



107a

Q. About what would it cost? A. It would cost you
—543—

around twenty-eight dollars a bale to have it picked.
Q. It would cost you approximately two hundred and 

thirty-six dollars, but you sell it for a hundred and forty- 
five dollars a bale, is that right? A. Right.

Q. Now, the total amount that you grow would be one 
thousand seven hundred and forty dollars, is that correct? 
A. I don’t know. I am not figuring.

Q. Well, that is what I figure, at a hundred and forty- 
five dollars a bale, and if you deduct the cotton picker cost 
from that, you get one thousand five hundred and four dol­
lars ; so the economic difference to you would be the differ­
ence between one thousand seven hundred and forty dol­
lars and one thousand five hundred and four dollars. Now, 
if you continue to hand pick that cotton yourself, if you 
continue to hand pick it—how many of your children do 
you have, incidentally, picking for you? A. One.

Q. You have just one child? A. Yes, now.
Q. Could you pick that cotton yourself with him helping

—544—
you after school? A. No, sir.

Q. Have you tried that? A. No, sir.
Q. You couldn’t do that? A. No, sir.
Q. But you feel like this difference of two hundred and 

forty-six dollars is not worth the cost and your child’s edu­
cation, is that correct? A. That’s correct.

Q. Do you have other means of income? A. No, sir.
Q. You mean this is your only means of income, just this 

cotton? A. Yes.
Q. Your total income per year is one thousand seven hun­

dred and forty dollars, what you sell this cotton for? A. 
Yes.

Floyd Jackson—for Plaintiffs—Redirect



108a

Q. Do you also grow vegetables on your farm? A. Just 
for home use.

Q. You produce your own food, is that correct? A. 
That’s right.

Q. How fast do you pick your cotton when you and your
- 5 4 5 -

son pick it? How long does it take you to pick those ten 
acres of cotton? A. Well, I haven’t picked any with the 
cotton picker.

Q. You say you and your son are picking it now? A. 
See, that’s all I have to pick it now, my son, myself and 
my wife.

Q. Your wife picks too? A. Yes.
Q. Did you pick it last year? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long did it take you to pick those ten acres, that 

is what I am asking? A. Well, I didn’t keep no exact 
count.

Q. Do you have an approximate idea? How long would 
it take to pick those ten acres with a cotton picker? A. A 
day and a half.

Q. One day, or a day and a half as against three or four 
months of hand labor out there in the fields, is that right? 
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, that three or four months that you are saving, 
you could get a job in town yourself if you wanted to,

—546—
couldn’t you? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And with job opportunities now opening for people 
of your color, it is quite possible that you could get a job 
making five or six thousand dollars during that four or five 
months that you were trying to harvest cotton, isn’t that 
correct? A. Right.

Floyd Jackson—for Plaintiffs—Redirect



109a

The Court: Five thousand dollars in five months ?
Mr. Williams: Yes, sir, that’s possible these days, 

Your Honor, with these labor unions. I don’t know 
if they have gotten down this way yet.

The Court: Well, I think some of these lawyers 
might change jobs.

Mr. Williams: I feel that way sometimes, Your 
Honor.

That is all.

(Witness excused.)

The Court: Call your next witness.
Mr. Williams: Call Mr. McBride.

Wilford Joyner McBride—for Plaintiffs—Direct

— 547—
W ilford J oyner McB ride, the said witness, having been 

first duly sworn, testified as follows:

D irect Exam ination by Mr. W illiam s:

Q. State your name, age, address and occupation, please. 
A. Wilford Joyner McBride.

Q. How old are you? A. Thirty-seven.
Q. Where do you live? A. Medon, Tennessee.
Q. Is that in Madison County? A. Yes.
Q. What part of Madison County? A. Tenth District. 
Q. Where is that— east, west, north, south? A. The 

west part.
Q. You say you are a farmer? A. No.
Q. What do you do? A. I work at the American Olean 

Tile Company.
Q. Do you live on a farm? A. Yes.
Q. What is your income, if you don’t mind stating? A.

—548—
Oh, about three thousand dollars a year.



110a

Q. Did you ever work on a farm? A. Right; born and 
raised on a farm.

Q. Did you harvest cotton on a farm? A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever make three thousand dollars a year 

harvesting cotton on a farm? A. No.
Q. Now, you are familiar with the harvesting of cotton 

in Madison County? A. Right.
Q. How many years did you harvest cotton? A. Up un­

til about twenty years.
Q. Incidentally, how far did you go in school? A. Tenth.
Q. Did you attend a split season school? A. I did.
Q. Where you had to let out of school to harvest cot­

ton? A. I did.
Q. You dropped out of school at the tenth grade? A. 

Right.
Q. And never got through? A. Right.

—549—
Q. In your opinion is there any economic need for the 

split season schools to continue in Madison County? A. 
Not at all.

Q. For negroes? A. Not at all.
Q. Is there any negro that you know or ever heard of 

going to starve or go without food or go without clothing 
or shelter if the school abandons this split season and op­
erates all the schools on an operational sound basis? A. 
No, sir.

Q. Now, you are aware that all the negro schools up 
there are still negro? A. Right.

Q. All negro teachers and students? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the white schools all-white, except for a few negro 

students ? A. Right.
Q. Now, are there white children living in your neigh­

borhood close to negro schools that they could be attend­
ing? A. No, there are not.

Wilford Joyner McBride—for Plaintiffs—Direct



111a

Q. Well, do you know some white children living in other
— 550-

neighborhoods up there that are close to negro schools? 
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know that they are not attending those negro 
schools, but are going greater distances to attend white 
schools? A. Right.

Q. In your opinion, if the faculties were mixed and this 
split season thing were cut out, would some of those chil­
dren go on to negro schools?

Mr. Manhein: If Your Honor please, I want to 
object again to this question on the ground that the 
witness is not qualified to express an opinion.

The Court: Well, I think we are going pretty far 
in allowing him to express an opinion on this, but 
I think everybody is pretty well estopped by now. 
So, go ahead, Mr. Williams. We will accept it for 
what it is worth.

B y  Mr. W illiam s:

Q. In your opinion, might some of those white children 
go to the negro schools, if the faculties were desegregated? 
A. Might be.

— 551—

Q. Now, do you have school children? A. I have four. 
Q. What are their ages? A. Sixteen, fourteen, twelve 

and ten.
Q. What schools do they go to? A. West High and 

Rosenwald.
Q. Both of those are still negro schools? A. Right.
Q. Why are you still sending them to those schools? A. 

Well, it’s a fear that they have. See, they haven’t had op­

Wilford Joyner McBride—for Plaintiffs—Direct



11.2a

portunity to go to white schools, and they—we always had 
split seasons, you see, and they never had a chance, and 
always when school is out, they have nothing to do and 
have no way to get back and forth to school at the time.

Q. I mean for the next ensuing school year have your 
children registered for the negro schools? A. They have.

Q. Does the continued faculty segregation at the white 
schools have anything at all to do with your decision, the 
decision that you have made to keep your children in the 
negro schools ? A. I don’t understand what you mean.

— 552—

Q. Well, do you have any fear of sending your children 
to a white school because of the teachers and the principals 
being white in those schools? A. Sure.

Q. Tell the Court what that is. A. Well, due to the fact 
we have white teachers in white schools and negroes in 
negro schools, but I believe if the school was integrated, 
teachers and children, I feel like my kids would be inter­
ested, and when the teacher would give them a lesson to re­
cite, it would put both of them more interested in school.

Q. Both the negro and the white? A. That’s right. He 
would have more interest in his class, you see, and each 
one as they grow up in manhood would understand each 
other better and move out all the fear that they have now.

Mr. Williams: That is all.

Wilford Joyner McBride—for Plaintiffs— Cross

Cross-Exam ination by Mr. M anhein :

Q. Out there in the area where you live, are there many 
negro families who use their children to pick cotton? A.

— 553-

Well, not very many. Most of the people out there do public 
work.



113a

Q. Most of them what? A. Public work.
Q. What do you mean by public work? A. Don’t farm.
Q. I mean negro farm families. I am not talking about 

the negro who works on public work. A. Well, they don’t 
now. They didn’t this last year. They mostly use cotton 
pickers.

Q. Were there any substantial number of them whose 
children picked cotton? A. Well, not too many.

Q. Well, as many as a third of them, a third of the total? 
A. A  third picking cotton?

Q. Were there as many as a third of the families whose 
children picked cotton? A. No, I wouldn’t think so.

Q. Now, you said something about having some kind of 
fear of sending your children to a school where the faculty 
was all-white. What would you be afraid of? A. Well, I 
would be afraid that the kids wouldn’t get justice.

—554—
Q. Well, in what way? A. Well, for this reason: He 

would have all-white teachers, all-white children, you see, 
and, therefore, there would be a fear within him that he 
would feel, that he would not get justice.

Q. You are just saying that you don’t think the teachers 
would be fair to the negro children? A. Not unless it was 
on a mixed basis.

Q. I am talking now about a school where you have both 
negro and white children going to the same school. You 
understand that? A. Right.

Q. But where the faculty, the teachers are all-white. You 
mean you don’t think those teachers would be fair to the 
negro child? A. No, I don’t.

Q. Why not? A. I just don’t believe—I believe it would 
be better, well, you see, you got—you see kids there is a 
fear in them, and they are not going to speak up for their-

Wilford Joyner McBride—for Plaintiffs— Cross



114a

Willie D. Boone—for Plaintiffs—Direct

self. They could be right, and you could tell them they was 
wrong.

—555—
Mr. Manhein: Well, all right; that is all, Your 

Honor.
Mr. Williams: I forgot to ask you what is the most 

you ever made picking cotton?
The Witness: About—so little I can’t hardly ex­

plain.
Mr. Williams: All right, come down.

(Witness excused)

The Court: Call your next witness. 
Mr. Williams: Call Mr. Boone.

— 556—
W illie D. B oone, the said witness, having been first duly 

sworn, testified as follows :

D irect Exam ination by Mr. B allard :

Q. State your name, please. A. Willie D. Boone.
Q. Can you speak out a little louder? A. Willie D. 

Boone.
Q. What is your age? A. Fifty-four.
Q. And where do you live? A. I live out in Madison 

County, Oakfield, Route 1.
Q. That is in the northeastern section of Madison 

County, is it not? A. Yes, that’s right.
Q. Are you a married man? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How much family do you have ? A. I have three right

now.



115a

Willie D. Boone—for Plaintiffs—Direct

Q. Have you previously had more? A. I previously had 
seven.

Q. How old are these children who are in the home with
—557—

you now? A. Fifteen.
Q. Fifteen? A. Yes, sir. The rest o f them is not there.
Q. Now, I didn’t understand you when you said you had 

three—you only have one child in the home with you now ? 
A. That’s right.

Q. And this child is fifteen years of age? A. That’s 
right.

Q. Where did this child go to school last year? A. East 
High School.

Q. And where is the child registered to go to school this 
year? A. East High.

Q. Where did your other children go to school, elemen­
tary school ? A. They went to— some of them went to East 
High, but the rest of them went to the old school where 
they was at.

Q. How long have you farmed? A. I farmed all my life.
Q. And is that the principal way by which you make your 

living? A. Yes.
—558—

Q. Have you had any other public work during the past 
few years? A. No, sir.

Q. What are the principal crops you have grown during 
the last few years? A. Well, cotton and corn and cattle, 
hogs, and that’s about the principal ones.

Q. I will ask you to state to the Court whether or not it 
is necessary from an economic standpoint, that is from 
gathering your crop and for making a living, is it necessary 
that your children be out of school or that the one you have



116a

now should be out of school during the harvest? A. No, 
sir, it wouldn’t be necessary to keep out for harvest.

Q. State whether or not there has been any change in 
the way in which people farm now, that is as to what ma­
chinery they use and so forth? A. Well, the machinery 
they use now, why you wouldn’t necessarily have to keep 
your children out for farming, making your crop or either 
gathering the crop. They have machinery to do all those 
things now.

Q. I will ask you to say whether or not there are as many 
people picking cotton by hand now as there were years ago ?

— 559—
A. No, sir, it is not.

Q. And why? A. Well, the machinery have taken this 
over, and they don’t have to use as many hands as they did.

Q. Is that true with reference also to the larger farm 
operators? A. That’s true with the large farm operators 
and small ones too.

Q. So, then, the machines are replacing picking cotton by 
hand? A. Taking the place of cotton pickers, that’s right.

Q. So, if the trend continues, there won’t be any need 
for hand pickers? A. Won’t be any need for hand pickers 
if it continues.

Q. I will ask you whether or not it is a fact that some 
of the farmers rent several farms and cultivate them by 
machinery? A. That’s right. They operate it by ma­
chinery. You don’t even now have to chop the cotton.

Q. I believe you stated that your children have always 
gone to negro schools? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are there any schools in Madison County, any negro
—560—

schools in Madison County attended by white children?

The Court: There is no question about that.

Willie D. Boone-—for Plaintiffs—Direct



117a

W illie D. B oone— fo r  P laintiffs— D irect 

B y  M r. Ballard-.

Q. We will assume there are no white children going to 
negro schools. Now, I want to ask you this question: If 
there were mixed faculties, that is if the faculties of these 
schools were mixed, white and negro teaching at each of the 
schools and the schools were all opened at the same time, do 
you feel that it would be more likely that some white chil­
dren would go to some of the schools nearby! A. Yes, sir.

Q. And would that be because of the mixed faculty? A. 
Yes.

Q. Do you think that any white child would ever go to a 
negro school as long the faculty remains negro altogether? 
A. No, sir, I don’t think so.

Q. Do you think it would be any advantage to the pupils, 
colored and white, if they were exposed to both negro and 
white teachers in their school system? A. Yes, sir, sho’ do.

Q. Do you think that would have any tendency to create 
a different kind of respect for professional negroes if white

—5 6 1 -
children attended schools where they taught? A. Yes, sir 
—you mean the white ?

Q. Yes. A. Yes, I believe it would.
Q. Do you think it would have a tendency to create a 

different kind and a better feeling in the school system if 
the negro child attended with white children, if the negro 
child who attends with white children also had negroes on 
the faculty? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you think that that would create—

Mr. Manhein: If Your Honor please, unless I am 
estopped, I would like to object again. He has asked 
at least a dozen questions that this witness is not 
qualified to answer.



118a

Mr. Ballard: If Your Honor please, I don’t know 
who would know any better than he does.

The Court: We think it is very doubtful that he 
or any of the rest of these witnesses are in position 
to give a valid opinion on whether or not a white 
child would be more likely to go to a school if he had 
white people on the faculty, but we are letting all

—562—
this in, so you go right ahead, Mr. Ballard.

B y  Mr. B allard :

Q. Is that what you hope for, or is that what you look 
upon as school desegregation, integration of faculty and 
students? A. Yes, sir, integration of faculty and students.

Q. Are you going to be pleased with anything short of 
that? A. No, sir, I won’t be pleased.

Q. Do you think that any negro in the community will be 
pleased with anything shorter than that? A. I don’t think 
so.

The Court: What about the teachers, Mr. Boone? 
Do you know any negro teacher who wants to teach 
in a predominantly white school.

The Witness: No, sir, I  don’t.
The Court: Well, you said you don’t know any 

negro who will be satisfied until you have an inte­
gration of faculty, and I wondered if you knew any 
negro teachers who would rather teach in a white 
school, or a school where the students were pre-

— 563—
dominantly white?

The Witness: Well, I don’t know any, but I believe 
if they were integrated, all working together, going

Willie D. Boone—for Plaintiffs—Direct



119a

to school together and working together, we can 
understand—

The Court: (Interposing) We understand that. 
But we were getting back to your original testimony 
a minute ago. You said that you did not believe any 
of the negro community of Madison County would 
be satisfied until the faculties are integrated, and I 
was particularizing on that, and I was asking you if 
you knew any negro teacher who wanted to teach in 
a white school ?

The Witness: I don’t know of any.
The Court: You don’t know whether they are 

satisfied or dissatisfied teaching where they are now?
The Witness: I don’t know of any now.
The Court: Let me ask you this question: Is it 

your opinion that they would be better pleased if 
the faculty was mixed? Do you think that negro

—5 6 4 -
teachers would be better pleased if the faculties were 
mixed ?

The Witness: My opinion, I believe they would.
The Court: Do you think the negro teachers would 

be happier if the faculties were mixed?
The Witness: How the teachers would feel?
The Court: Yes.
The Witness: Well, I  don’t know how they would 

feel.
The Court: Just your opinion. What is your 

opinion on it?
The Witness: About them teaching together?
The Court: That is about how they would feel 

about it.

Willie D. Boone—for Plaintiffs—Direct



120a

The Witness: I guess they would feel all right, but 
I believe in my opinion it would be better for the 
whole thing for them to be together and work the 
things out together, in my opinion. I don’t know. 

The Court: That is all.

Willie I). Boone—for Plaintiffs— Cross—Redirect

— 565—

Cross-Exam ination by Mr. M anhein:

Q. Are there any or many negro farm families in Madi­
son County who use their children to pick cotton? A. Yes, 
there is some.

Q. Any substantial number? A. Not very many.
Q. Would you say as many as a third of the negro farm 

families do use their children to pick cotton ? A. I wouldn’t 
say so.

Q. Less than a third? A. I would say it wouldn’t be 
any more than about ten percent of them.

R edirect Exam ination by Mr. B allard :

Q. Mr. Boone, has the fact that all the faculty is white at 
so-called white schools had anything to do with your not 
sending your children to the white schools? A. Well, I 
guess so ; that’s some cause. Of course, I live close to a 
colored school, but by it being an all-white school, I wouldn’t 
want to send my kid to all-white school.

Q. You are talking about teachers? A. Yes, sir, teach-
— 566—

ers.

Mr. Ballard: That is all.



121a

R ecross Exam ination by Mr. M anhein:

Q, You have just one child now, do you not! A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How old is that child! A. Fifteen.
Q. Is it a boy or girl! A. Girl.
Q. Where is she going to school! A. East High.
Q. Would you be fearful of sending her to North Side 

where we are going to have both negro and white children 
this year just because there was an all-white faculty over 
there! A. Yes, sir, I would be a little fearful if it was 
all-white teachers.

Q. W hy! A. Because I feel like she wouldn’t get the 
same thing she would get if it was a mixed faculty.

Q. What do you mean by getting the same thing? A.
—5 6 7 -

Well, if the teachers were teaching together, it would be 
better for both, for all the children.

Q. Well, you are not giving me any particular reason. 
You are just saying it would be better. What is there about 
the white teachers that would make you afraid or fearful? 
Do you feel like they would abuse your child in some way? 
A. No, sir.

Q. Or grade your child harder than they would the white 
children? A. I feel like by it being all-white, I feel like it 
would be some difference some way that I couldn’t explain 
exactly.

Q. It is just your general distrust, maybe, of the white 
people, is that really what you are saying? A. What I am 
trying to say is their getting justice.

Mr. Manhein: All right.
Mr. Williams: Come down. Thank you, sir.

(Witness excused.)

Willie D. Boone—for Plaintiffs—Recross



122a,

M. T. M eriw ether— fo r  P laintiffs— D irect 

Mr. Williams: Call Mr. Meriwether.
—568—

M. T. Meriwether, the said witness, having been first 
duly sworn, testified as fo llow s:

D irect Exam ination by Mr. W illiam s:

Q. This is Mr. M. T. Meriwether! A. Yes, sir.
Q. How is your name spelled! A. M-e-r-i-w-e-t-h-e-r.
Q. How old are you, Mr. Meriwether? A. Sixty-six.
Q. Where do you live? A. Jackson, Tennessee, 808 

North Hays.
Q. What is your occupation? A. Presently I am teach­

ing.
Q. Where? A. Lane College.
Q. How long have you been teaching at Lane? A. Well, 

I have taught in Lane—well, three months right now.
Q. Have you taught there for previous periods of time? 

A. That’s right.
—569—

Q. Will you just briefly state your education and pro­
fessional background, Mr. Meriwether? A. I came up 
through the Jackson City Schools and I finished Lane 
College and finished Columbia University, and that’s about 
all.

Q. You finished Lane College in what year? A. I finished 
Lane College in 1925.

Q. And did you go immediately to Columbia for post­
graduate training? A. I did not. I went to Columbia later 
after many, many years of work.

Q. What degree did you obtain from Lane? A. I re­
ceived a Bachelor of Arts Degree.

Q. In what field? A. Education.



123a

Q. And what degree did you obtain from Columbia? 
A. Master of Arts in Education.

Q. Now, have you had any teaching experience in public 
schools? A. I have.

Q. State that to the Court, please. A. I taught for thirty- 
four years in the Jackson City Schools.

—570—
Q. Do you have any experience as a principal of a public 

school? A. I was principal of the elementary school there 
in Jackson during that time.

Q. During that thirty-four years? A. Yes.
Q. How long were you principal? A. Thirty-four years. 

I went in as a principal.
Q. Did you teach some in connection—you were a teaching 

principal, is that what you are saying? A. I was a teaching 
principal for, I can’t say the exact number of years, but 
I began as teaching principal and was later elevated to 
supervising principal and remained a principal.

Q. You are retired now, I believe, from the Jackson City 
School System? A. That is correct.

Q. And when did you retire? A. In ’63.
Q. And since that time you have just been putting in 

some time teaching now and then over at Lane? A. Yes, 
sir.

—571—
Q. In what field? A. In the field of education.
Q. Do you feel that you are fairly well trained then and 

experienced in the field of elementary and secondary educa­
tion in public schools, Mr. Meriwether? A. Well, I feel 
that I have had some experience in it, Mr. Williams.

Q. How many teachers did you have under your super­
vision when you were a principal? A. We had twenty-six 
at Lincoln School when I was principal.

M. T. Meriwether—for Plaintiffs—Direct



124a

Q. Now, in connection with your duties as a principal, 
did you also have—did they also permit you to consort 
from time to time with the white principals in Jackson? 
A. That wasn’t done.

Q. They kept you completely compartmentalized? A. 
That’s right.

Q. Both the principals and the teachers ? A. That’s true.
Q. Now, Mr. Meriwether, what, in your opinion as an 

educator, was the effect of that segregation of principals 
and teachers on the education of the children you all were 
telling the public you were educating? A. Well, I feel

—572—
that it didn’t have a very good effect on the children. They 
probably—I shouldn’t say “ They probably” , but it just 
wouldn’t have had the type of effect that an educational 
effect should have had on children it was responsible for.

Q. Let me ask you whether or not one of the basic goals 
of the education—

The Court: Now, Mr. Williams, you wanted to 
lead your other witnesses on the ground that they 
weren’t too long on education. I think you are going 
to have to stop right now with this witness.

B y  M r. W illiam s:

Q. What are some of the basic goals of education in 
the State of Tennessee, Mr. Meriwether? A. The basic 
goals of education in the State of Tennessee is to serve 
more or less as a bulwark or byway of life and to transmit 
democratic ideas and practices into the youngsters.

Q. Is that one of the basic goals of education? A. I 
should think so.

M. T. Meriwether—for Plaintiffs—Direct



125a

Q. Now, I will ask you whether or not segregated faculties
—573—

tend to hinder or help the achievement of that goal? A. 
My answer to that would be that segregated faculties would 
be a hinderance to advancing toward that goal.

Q. Now, Mr. Meriwether, is it necessary or unnecessary 
for a person in the field of education to continue his— 
to further his professional training as he goes along? A. 
That is very necessary, Mr. Williams, because there are 
changes every day in the field of education, and one should 
continue his training in order to keep abreast of the changes 
that develop.

Q. Now, based on your experience, do you feel that factor 
has been helped or hindered by virtue of the segregation 
of teachers? A. In a way it has hindered some, I would 
think.

Q. Why? A. One needs those three summer months, a 
teacher, to go to school for refresher courses, for advancing 
themselves, and if they don’t get it, they can’t take ad­
vantage of that opportunity.

Q. So that you are now referring to the split season, 
are you not, so that when the split season is utilized—

- 5 7 4 -
let me ask that question specifically.

When a split season is utilized and school begins in the 
middle of July or about the 20th, I believe it is, are these 
negro teachers able to pursue these summer courses that 
they should be pursuing? A. No. By virtue of the fact 
that their schools open at a time when they would be away 
in a summer school and, therefore, they stay away from 
the advanced studies so that they won’t lose time from 
that school, so they just don’t get a chance to go.

M. T. Meriwether—for Plaintiffs—Direct



126a

Q. Now, in your opinion, what about competition, does 
competition, scholastic and intellectual and professional 
competition play any part in this field of education! A. 
Well, when we speak about competition, Mr. Williams, 
we think of business all the time, but I do know, just as 
in business, competition does seem to—well, enhance 
progress, because one is making’ an effort to advance as 
another advances and as a result, both advance.

Q. Now, does that happen in a case of scholastic attain­
ment as between students, that they compete and thereby 
improve themselves! A. Yes, it does.

Q. Now, does that likewise happen as pertains to pro-
—575—

fessional improvement and competence as between teachers 
and principals! A. From what I have been able to ob­
serve, it does.

Q. Now, is that competition enhanced or hindered by 
continued segregation of teachers and faculties! A. Re­
peat your question again. I am not sure that I under­
stand you.

Q. Is that open and free and broad competition—or 
maybe there is a point I haven’t brought out yet—is that 
competition better or worse the broader it gets? What 
I am asking, does that competition need to be as broad 
as possible in order to be the best? A. It should.

Q. Now, does racial segregation in teacher assignment, 
does that enhance or hinder that broad and free com­
petition, intellectual and scholastic competition that is 
needed? A. It would hinder it.

Q. Now, are you familiar somewhat with this cotton 
picking in the county and all? A. I think I have some 
idea.

M. T. Meriwether—for Plaintiffs—Direct



127a

Q. You have lived there all your life in Madison County? 
A. Yes.

Q. Are there any negroes in any substantial numbers who
—576—

rely on their children as a necessity to provide the basic 
needs of life for them? A. I don’t think that is so. I 
don’t think that’s the case now.

Q. Mr. Meriwether, has there been any experience that 
you know of there in Madison County with white children 
attending schools with negroes, white children attending 
schools that are negro schools?

The Court: Well, that is stipulated, I believe.
Mr. Williams: They stipulate that there are no 

white children attending the negro schools in Madi­
son County now.

Q. What I am asking you, Mr. Meriwether, is in your 
experience do you know of any cases where white children 
have attended negro schools? A. 1 do not.

Q. You are familiar with the freedom of choice plan 
that the Court approved for the county up there, are 
you not? A. I have read something about it. I think I am 
sufficiently acquainted with it to maybe express an idea 
about it or answer a question about it.

—577—
Q. You are aware that this plan provided that any 

child could select any school that he wanted to attend, 
is that correct? A. Yes.

Q. But you are also aware that notwithstanding that, 
all the negro schools still retain the split season thing 
and begin at a different time of the year ? A. That’s right.

Q. And they all still have all-negro faculties ? A. That’s 
true.

M. T. Meriwether—for Plaintiffs—Direct



128a

Q. And that all the white schools still have all-white 
faculties? A. That’s true.

Q. Now, in your opinion, does the retention of segre­
gated faculties tend to discourage white children from 
attending negro schools and negro children from attend­
ing white schools or not? A. In my opinion, it does. 
Well, that’s my answer. It does. I think it does.

Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Meriwether: State whether 
or not when a desegregation plan is formulated in this 
fashion, a negro parent who wants their children to receive 
the best education possible is nevertheless—

—578—
Mr. Manhein: Objection on the ground it is lead­

ing.
Mr. Williams: I don’t know whether I am leading 

yet or not. I am trying not to.

Q. State whether or not a negro parent is faced with 
any burdens in making such a choice, psychological or 
otherwise? A. In the free choice matter I would say 
that there is perhaps a burden on the negro parent be­
cause—well, my answer is there would be a burden.

Q. What are some of those burdens? A. They must 
take all the initiative. They must move out and ask for 
the child to be put in the school, when they have a desire 
for the child to go there, and they must face unpleasantries 
that might be accompanied with it, and then there is a 
more or less kind of mental block or mental feeling within 
that you won’t be welcome, and you have to overcome that, 
and things like that.

Q. Would an all-white faculty tend to enhance some of 
these fears that a negro parent might have? A. I should 
think it would.

M. T. Meriwether—for Plaintiffs-—-Direct



129a

Q. Does a white parent face any burden when confronted 
under this kind of plan with the problem of selecting a

—5 7 9 -
school! A. The problem would be similar, though they 
may not be exact. The white parent—now, I am speaking 
of what I think about the white parent. The white parent 
would be hesitant to go and request admittance of their 
child into an all-negro school where there were no white 
teachers; that would be normal.

Mr. Williams: You may cross-examine.

M. T. Meriwether—for Plaintiffs—Cross

Cross-Exam ination hy Mr. M anhein:

Q. Do you know Dr. Weinstein of Vanderbilt University? 
Do you know who he is? A. I have read something about 
his work, but I am not personally acquainted with him.

Q. He testified from this stand, as I understood him, a 
few days ago that the all-white faculties might in many 
cases encourage the negro parent to send his child to a 
school with all-white faculties on the theory that perhaps 
he would get a better education there. Do you not agree 
with that? A. I do not agree with that, Mr. Manhein.

Q. Well, strictly from an educational standpoint in the
—5 8 0 -

sense that the layman understands the words, at least, 
would not the negro child be likely to get just as good 
an education at a school with an all-white faculty as he 
would at a school with an integrated faculty? A. I 
wouldn’t doubt at all but what he wouldn’t get a good 
education, but I feel like he would miss something there. 
He would miss that which would result from—well, let’s 
say a cross-cultural atmosphere.



130a

Q. You think it might not enhance that phase of the 
racial problem? A. I think that would be right,

Q. This Court is concerned with an education of the 
child in this litigation.

Mr. Williams: We object to counsel arguing with 
the witness.

The Court: He is not making any determination 
from the Court in any event. Go right ahead, Mr. 
Manhein.

B y  Mr. M anhein:

Q. Now, you, of course, understand that the schools in 
the City of Jackson have been integrated for several years 
now? A. Tokenly so.

—581—
Q. Well, there has been more than token integration in 

the last year or two, has there not? A. I should think it 
is still token, because we have one hundred or a little more 
out of perhaps fifteen hundred children.

Q. And, of course, the schools of Madison County were 
also integrated last year, the elementary schools? A. I 
read something about that. I am not too familiar.

Q. Do you know of any instance, or have you heard of 
any instance where there has been abuse or mistreatment 
of a negro student on the part of the white child—I mean 
on the part of the white teacher? A. No, I haven’t read 
anything of abuse like that, and I wouldn’t expect it. They 
are professional folks. They wouldn’t mistreat a child.

Q. They don’t do that sort of thing? A. No.
Q. So, actually, there is nothing of that nature that 

would deter a negro child from going to the Madison County 
School System, that is in a school where the faculty was

M. T. Meriwether—for Plaintiffs—Cross



131a

all-white? A. Well, we, perhaps, wouldn’t be contending 
that the child is so afraid physically as we are the child

—582—
would be affected psychologically or emotionally.

Q. Emotionally—that is something that an integrated 
faculty would hardly dispel? A. That’s debatable, sir.

Q. You implied something a moment ago that was a little 
hard for me to understand. You said that you thought an 
integrated faculty would promote intellectual and scholastic 
competition, is the words you were using, among the teach­
ers. Well, now, don’t the negro teachers, don’t they com­
pete intellectually and scholastically among themselves? 
A. May I answer this w ay: It is more or less one of your 
traditions and customs as Americans, not as negroes, that 
when another ethnic group is in our presence, to put our 
best foot forward, and when a white teacher is placed on a 
negro faculty, every negro teacher in that school would 
normally put their best foot forward, and the same would 
be true of whites.

Q. You are not saying there isn’t already intellectual 
competition with non-integrated faculties, are you? A. 
There is some certainly, I am sure.

Q. You just think there might be more? A. I am cer­
tain there would be more.

—583—
Mr. Manhein: That is all.
Mr. Williams: That is all.
The Court: We would like to ask a couple of ques­

tions, Mr. Meriwether.
The Witness: Yes, sir.
The Court: Mr. Williams asked you questions 

about the free choice plan that the Court approved 
for the Madison County Schools, and you testified

M. T. Meriwether—for Plaintiffs—Cross



132a

a little bit about that and the problems to the negro 
child in operating to go to a heretofore all-white 
school, and you said, among other things, that the 
negro child is faced with making a change, so to 
speak, which I suppose you intended to say was a 
psychological hazard for him. You understand that 
under the free choice plan it does not involve the 
negro child going to his former school and then ask­
ing for a transfer to the white school. Everybody in 
the county simply goes to the school they want to 
attend and registers in that school, you see, on regis­
tration day. Everybody goes to the school they want 
to go to and registers in that school. Now, did you 
understand that?

—584—
The Witness: Yes, sir.
The Court: Well, did you understand that with 

respect to the question of fear—do you know of any 
incidents that have occurred in Madison County since 
this short-lived plan has been in effect, in the in­
tegrating of negro children, do you know of any in­
stance where any of them have been made uncom­
fortable who chose to go to a white school, or do 
you know of any economic pressure or other types 
of influence?

The Witness: I haven’t any information to that 
end in mind, but I have talked with parents and with 
children, and they have said they feared and felt 
that way.

The Court: Do you know of any basis for the 
fear?

The Witness: No, I don’t.

M. T. Meriwether—for Plaintiffs—Cross



133a

The Court: Ton understand this is a new thing. 
The Court ordered the first eight grades integrated 
last September and the remaining four integrated 
this September, so it is still a pretty new thing, and 
don’t you think that this fear is resulting from the 
newness of the thing, and as a little time goes on

—585—
and they get accustomed to the idea, that more and 
more they will get up the courage and choose to do 
what they probably think is best for the children, 
that is send them into an integrated situation?

The Witness: I quite agree with you there, but 
it would appear that there would need to be some­
where someone to say how it should be done, and 
then we will all do it that way, instead of making 
up your mind and do what you are not afraid to do.

The Court: Of course, what you are saying is 
what Mr. Williams is arguing is constitutionally 
necessary and that is that you, as a matter of con­
stitutional law, have to surround the county into 
districts with no respect to race and not let any­
body out of this district. The Court doesn’t believe 
that as of now the constitution requires that, and 
it is the Court’s view that this voluntary plan that 
was approved meets the standard of the constitu­
tion, and even though it may not be the best plan,

—586—
the Court is not in the education business, and I 
have to see that what they do comes up to the 
requirements of the constitution, right or wrong 
educationally. Well, anyway, we have another ques­
tion we want to ask, and that is this:

With respect to this split season, you testified a 
little bit about that. As I understand, these kind of

M. T. Meriwether—for Plaintiffs—Cross



134a

schools have a split season and the children are 
turned out, in theory at least, to harvest cotton. 
Now, the County School Board concedes and stip­
ulates that this is educationally bad, so we don’t 
have that issue. The only question is does that 
split season—is that unconstitutional because it 
would tend to prevent the abolition of discrimina­
tion in the Madison County School System. The 
School Board on the one hand says it does not and 
that the real reason for it is economic. The plain­
tiffs here, Mr. Williams’ clients, say that it does 
tend to prevent abolition of discrimination and 
that it is not economically necessary. So we have

—587—
had a lot of proof here on the economic necessity 
of it, but what the Court is wondering is this: 
Assuming that everything that Mr. Williams’ clients 
say is correct—in other words, that it is just no 
longer necessary and very few of them actually 
pick cotton when it is turned out, how would that 
prevent the abolition of discrimination? In other 
words, if a negro community up there doesn’t want 
it and it is no longer necessary, but the School 
Board illogically continues it, wouldn’t that cause 
the negro parents who didn’t like it to choose to 
send his children to a white school where they don’t 
have it?

The Witness: Your Honor, I am afraid, sir, that 
it wouldn’t have that effect. It would be a very 
desirable effect if it did. But I am fearful that it 
wouldn’t have that effect. They would be satisfied 
with the meager amount of schooling that the child

M. T. Meriwether—for Plaintiffs—Cross



13oa

received, and the white parents wouldn’t dare send 
his child into that school.

The Court: We understand the arguments of the
— 5 8 8 -

plaintiffs, that it would prevent the white child 
from going to the school that has it and that gets 
us into another constitutional argument, which we 
won’t go into now, but the problem that I was 
asking you about as an expert and as a person 
with a lot of experience in school administration, is 
assuming that Mr. Williams and his clients are right, 
that it does tend, that it is completely not necessary 
and not used—it just occurred to the Court that 
it could give an impetus to the negroes who don’t 
like it, and the plaintiffs say most of them don’t 
like it—it would give an impetus to them to choose 
to go to the white schools. We can see where that 
might at least be a tendency, and we are wondering 
what you thought about it.

The Witness: Judge, Your Honor, you are cer­
tainly thinking the normal way of people, but some 
of our people don’t think that way.

The Court: Well, do you think it has any effect 
on their failure to choose to go to an all-white school?

—589—
The Witness: It is possible that it might have 

some.
The Court: Do you think it would be a deterrence ?
The Witness: Yes, sir.
The Court: The split season?
The Witness: Yes, sir.
The Court: How would it be a deterrence if they 

don’t need it and don’t want it?

M. T. Meriwether—for Plaintiffs—Cross



136a

The Witness: I am not for sure I follow you 
there. Would you please repeat that?

The Court: If this split season is not necessary 
for the negro community, the negro farm commu­
nity, and if it is not actually being used very much, 
that is the children aren’t actually harvesting cotton 
when they come out at split season, if that’s true, 
then how could the existence of the split season be 
a deterrent to a negro parent in not sending his 
child to a heretofore white school?

The Witness: They would take that as an oppor­
tunity to get that child in school for that brief 
period of time and feel that they have justified their

- 5 9 0 -
own conscience and met the requirements of the 
Board of Education by sending him to that school 
for two or three months.

The Court: Well, you understand— as I under­
stand it, at any rate, the total number of days would 
be the same, the total number of days of school at­
tendance, except you just split it. I still don’t quite 
see your point about that.

Mr. Williams: May it please the Court, I thought 
the defendants had stipulated that it was education­
ally unsound?

The Court: They have.
Mr. Williams: Then it seems to me the argument 

you are pursuing—
The Court: I am trying to find out from an expert 

here, Mr. Williams, as to how this split season, if 
it is not necessary, and as your proof strongly tends 
to prove, and if it is not actually used when the

M. T. Meriwether—for Plaintiffs—Cross



13 / a

children are turned out, how that would be a de­
terrent.

Mr. Williams: May I state to Your Honor our
— 591-

theory. Your Honor is assuming that when we say 
that it is absolutely unnecessary, which is what 
Your Honor compelled us to show—we said it was 
inequality, and Your Honor said you would recog­
nize economic necessity, and to prove that.

The Court: We asked you— suggested to you that 
this question of economic necessity, if you could 
show it was no economic necessity, then that would 
he certainly some evidence that it was being main­
tained in some way to preserve segregation. So we 
thought that the question of economic necessity came 
in in that way. But the ultimate question, as we 
understand the law, is whether or not it tends to 
interfere with the abolition of discrimination. If, 
for example, it is true that the preservation of this 
split season in some way deterred negro parents 
from sending their children to heretofore white 
schools, we could see how it could tend to interfere 
with the abolition of discrimination. We can see 
also that insofar as it deters the white parent from 
sending his child to the split season school, it would

— 592—

be relevant, but all we are attempting to find out 
from Mr. Meriwether here, as an expert, is how it 
would deter the negro parent from sending his 
child to a heretofore white school.

Mr. Williams: He has answered that, Your Honor, 
in a negative way. He has stated—

The Court: Well, let him testify.

M. T. Meriwether—for Plaintiffs—Cross



138a

Mr. Williams: But, if Your Honor will permit, 
I would like to clear this up, because it seems to me 
that Your Honor has said to the plaintiffs now, 
“You drive down one highway, and we will be on 
the right highway, and if you get to first base there, 
then you are all right.”

The Court: Are you objecting to my asking this 
witness a question?

Mr. Williams: No, sir, I am not.
The Court: You understand the question the 

Court is trying to ask you, Mr. Meriwether? Maybe 
we are not doing a good job of asking you the 
questions.

The Witness: I think I understand.
The Court: How would the existence of this split 

season, if not necessary and not used, how would
—593—

that deter the negro parent from choosing to send 
his child to a heretofore white school?

The Witness: I f his child is already in that split 
system school when the nine-months school opens, 
then he has the problem of having to transfer his 
child to the other school, and it isn’t so easy to get 
a transfer when your child is once registered in a 
school and attending from one school to another.

The Court: Well, we understand that. That might 
be true if he started out in a split season school 
when it opens ahead of the other schools, but take 
next year—how would it deter him from choosing 
to get out of that split season school and going to a 
school where you have a majority of whites with no 
split season?

M. T. Meriwether—for Plaintiffs—Cross



139a

Tiie Witness: The problem in that case to me 
would be that there would be more or less kind of 
an inertia. The progress of their children and for 
the group as a whole, they will do—in other words, 
they will take the least resistance. They will take 
the road of least resistance, and it would be easier 
to go into a split system school and leave the child

—594—
there than to face the problem of getting that child 
into the other school, and for that reason, that split 
system would serve to maintain the status quo.

The Court: All right, sir.

M. T. Meriwether—for Plaintiffs—Redirect

R edirect Exam ination by Mr. W illiam s:

Q. And, moreover, would the teachers be all-negro and 
these split season schools all formerly negro schools and 
the student bodies being all-negro, state whether or not 
this would have any effect in regard to this inertia that you 
mentioned ?

Mr. Manhein: Objection on the ground that it is 
leading.

The Court: I believe it is, Mr. Williams.
Mr. Williams: Did you listen to my question? I 

asked him to state whether or not the teachers being 
all-negro, the student bodies being all-negro and 
the schools being all formerly negro would have any 
effect on this inertia he is talking about. The only 
thing I stated is facts which are stipulated, and I 
asked him whether or not it would have any effect 
on this.



140a

James A. Cook—for Plaintiffs—Direct

— 595—

The Court: You have already brought out his 
opinion on this very question that you are asking 
him now. Before you asked him piece meal, and 
now you put all three together.

Mr. Williams: That was in the light of what you 
were pursuing.

The Court: Well, I think he has answered that, 
Mr. Williams.

Mr. Williams: That is all.
The Court: All right, Mr. Meriwether, you may 

step down.

(Witness excused)

The Court: Call the next witness.
Mr. Williams: If Your Honor please, we have 

one more witness who has been sitting in the court­
room, but he is an expert, and as I understand the 
law, this rule doesn’t apply to him.

The Court: Put him on.

—596—
J ames A. Cook, the said witness, having been first duly 

sworn, testified as follows:

D irect Exam ination by Mr. W illiam s:

Q. State your name, age, address and occupation. A. 
James A. Cook; age, fifty-seven; my occupation is teacher 
with the rank of professor.

Q. In what institution? A. Lane College, Jackson, Ten­
nessee.

Q. How long have you resided in Jackson, Tennessee? 
A. Well, I have been in and out of Jackson since 1929, but



141a

I have been employed at Lane College for fourteen years.
Q. Will you state your educational and professional 

training and background, please? A. I am a graduate of 
Lane College. I hold a Master’s Degree, and I have done 
further study at Columbia University in New York.

Q. Mr. Cook, what are you teaching at Lane College at 
present? A. I am head of the Department of Physical 
Education and also Dean of Men.

—597—
Q. Have you at any time served in an administrative 

capacity in the field of education per se? A. Yes, sir, I 
have. I served as Chairman of the Division of Education. 
I head the Department of Health and Education, Secretary 
of Education, Business Education and Teacher Education 
Program.

Q. Now, will you state what, if any effect, segregated 
teachers and principals have on education in your opinion? 
A. Will you restate that question, please?

Q. State what, if any effect, segregated teachers and 
principals have on education in your opinion? A. Well, 
it is my opinion that in a segregated system teachers often 
become somewhat complacent. I have had the privilege 
of working in both systems. Our staff is integrated. It 
has been integrated now, I think, to be exact, approxi­
mately thirteen years. I have served under some as heads 
and have had some serve under me.

Q. You are referring to some white persons? A. That’s 
correct. Now, here is what you will find: That America is 
a country today because of competition. When you have 
that, people will strive for excellence.

Q. Is broad and effective competition in the field of edu­
cation possible within the barriers of segregation? A. I 
don’t think it is.

James A. Cook—for Plaintiffs—Direct



James A. Cook—for Plaintiffs—Direct

— 598—

Q. Is our total American society itself segregated, or 
is it open and competitive? A. It is open and competitive.

Q. Can one learn in a segregated environment the essen­
tials of education necessary to equip one to compete in 
open and competitive society? A. Yes.

Q. I want to make sure you understood. Can one within 
the barriers of a segregated teaching environment learn 
the essentials and acquire the tools necessary to compete 
in an open and unsegregated environment? A. Certainly 
not.

Q. Do segregated teachers and principals have any effect 
with regard to the continued designation of a school as a 
negro or white school? A. You say would the teachers 
and principals have anything to do with it?

Q. What I am asking you is this: If you have all-white 
teachers in a school and all-negroes in other schools, and 
that is uniformly true throughout the system, would that 
or would that not have a tendency to retain a designation

— 599—

of those respective schools as negro or white schools? A. 
Oh, yes.

Q. Would that affect the education of the children in 
those schools? A. Why, I should think so.

Q. Are you familiar with this split season? A. Yes, I 
am very much familiar with it. In fact, I taught in the 
public school system where we once had a split season, 
and here is what I found in that particular system. No. 1, 
studies have been made and will reveal that students who 
attend schools where we have the split season will complete 
only about ten years of work in twelve years. Now, maybe 
I need to explain that. Here is what I mean.



143a

You see, when you have—you open in July— all right— 
the students will be a couple of weeks, maybe, late enter­
ing school, and they close out in August for the split sea­
son, and the kids drop out a week or two prior to the 
closing of the schools, and then they are late entering 
when it opens again, and then you have to start over 
again, so this particular student would only put in ap-

— 600—

proximately six months in a nine-months school term.
Q. Now, let me ask you something about this: You 

know negroes fairly well, Mr. Cook? A. Well, I think so. 
I have been acquainted with them all my life.

Q. Do you know them fairly well in a segregated kind 
of environment to which virtually all adult negroes have 
been subjected, to which they have been subjected all their 
lives? A. I should think so. I have been in Jackson since 
1929.

Q. Do you know what kind of habits and thoughts they 
have with regard to the white community, and with regard 
to what the white community tells them or does not tell 
them to do? A. I should say I do.

Q. Now, would you say that where negroes have been 
subjected to this split season thing, this split season 
method of operation and the School Board adopted a 
plan which continued the operation of negro schools only 
in this fashion, would you say that any reasonable number 
of negro parents would assume the burden of abandoning 
these negro schools and electing to send their children 
to white schools?

— 601—

Mr. Manhein: Leading, Your Honor, again, on a 
tremendous scale.

The Court: We don’t believe you can go on the 
ground of lack of education here, Mr. Williams.

James A. Cook—for Plaintiff's—Direct



144a

Mr. Williams: I wasn’t aware of leading.
The Court: I  believe you were. You have gotten 

in the habit here.
Mr. Williams: Maybe I have.
The Court: I believe you were. You got in the 

habit with some of your other witnesses.
Mr. Williams: Well, maybe I have done it so 

much I don’t recognize it.
I  believe that is all.

C ross-E xam ination  by Mr. M anhein :

Q. As I understood, you favor an integrated faculty. 
You think that is desirable educationally, because it would 
tend to promote competition scholastically— scholastic and 
intellectual competition among the teachers, is that right? 
A. Yes.

—602—
Q. Well, what we are talking about now is the question 

of segregated faculty, not segregated student bodies. What 
you are saying is that if the faculties were integrated, that 
is if  you had negro and white teachers in the same schools, 
that that would promote intellectual competition among 
teachers more so than if the faculties were not integrated, 
is that right? A. Yes, I think you are exactly correct. 
Now, may I give a personal example?

The Court: Sure.
The Witness: I had the privilege once to be one 

of the first in the Marine Corps in the field of 
weapons. Well, you know every individual has a 
certain amount of pride, and any time you are in 
a situation like that, you will put your best foot 
forward at all times to do your very best. In other 
words, America is the country that, it is today be­

James A, Cook—for Plaintiffs—Cross



145a

cause of the keen competition that we have had 
throughout these years.

B y  M r. M anhein :

Q. Well, I understand that and the effect of that, you 
say is—I assume that you mean that you will have better 
teachers, more competition, better teachers, and that way

—603—
the student would get a better education? A. You are 
correct, sir, and I am willing to go further than that—we 
will have a better selectivity of teachers.

Q. Is the white teacher going to be competing, trying 
to outdo the negro teacher? A. I don’t say who will be 
trying to outdo who, but everybody would be trying to do 
their best.

Q. Well, do you mean to say that in your opinion you 
think the white teacher is going to be trying to do a— 
going to be trying to surpass the negro teacher, and in 
that way will become a better teacher herself?

Mr. Williams: He has already answered that, if 
Your Honor please.

The Court: Objection overruled.
The Witness: I think he would do a better job, 

both the white and the negro teacher.

B y  M r. M anh ein :

Q. I am thinking now in terms of the white teachers 
alone. Do you mean to say that if you had a faculty con­
sisting solely of white teachers that there would be less 
competition among those teachers than there would be if 
that faculty were integrated insofar as the white teacher 
was concerned—would they try harder, in other words,

James A. Cook—for Plaintiffs—Cross



146a

with an integrated faculty than they would with a white
- 6 0 4 -

faculty? A. I know I am a good teacher—that’s point 
No. 1. No. 2, I believe I can make a good living teaching 
school for the Eskimos. Now, if I were to go into a white 
college or university today, then some of the people in 
that particular school that have been dragging their feet 
would do a better job. I think that.

Q. I understand that you feel that you and the negro 
teachers would strive harder and compete harder and do 
a better job, but I am asking you if you think that the 
white faculty would try to outdo the negro teacher? A. 
I think they would do a better job.

Mr. W illiams: He has answered that three times, 
Your Honor. I object.

The Court: Objection sustained.
Mr. Williams: I realize, perhaps, that counsel 

can’t conceive—
The Court: Now, don’t make any speeches. We 

sustain your objection.

B y  Mr. M anhein :

Q. Do you know of any instance in either the county, 
Madison County Schools or the city schools where there

— 605—
has been any indication that any of the white students have 
in any way abused or mistreated or discouraged the negro 
students? A. I knowr of none at the present.

Q. There is no reason, so far as you know, no basis 
for any negro parent being fearful of sending a child to 
an all-white faculty, or a school with an all-white faculty?

James A. Cook—for Plaintiffs—Cross



147a

A. Yes, I think it is. I think there is a reason that some 
would be fearful.

Q. Would you tell me what you mean? A. Sure. I 
don’t think they would be fearful, as a matter of fact, that 
they would—be fearful from the standpoint of bodily harm, 
but I think it is economic reprisal.

Q. Economic reprisal? A. Sure.
Q. How would the faculty enter into that sort of thing? 

A. Did I understand your question correctly?
Q. I am asking if there is any reason why the negro 

parent should be apprehensive or fearful or concerned 
about sending his child to a school with an all-white

—6 0 6 -
faculty? A. Oh, that’s not the question as I understood. 
Yes, I  think there is a reason for that. You will find that 
small kids and also large kids need what is known as 
counseling and guidance. It is comparatively a new field 
in our schools and colleges. For the last four or five years 
I have had the privilege of serving as Dean of Men. You 
would be surprised to know the young men that come to 
me every day for counseling and guidance. In other words, 
they have to have somebody to talk to that they can con­
fide in. Now, you take where you have an integrated 
faculty, then all the children have someone that they can 
talk to and be comfortable with. They will come to you 
with their problems and their secrets when they wouldn’t 
want to talk to mama or papa, and you can help them 
and steer them in the right direction. You see, the reason 
we have today so many delinquent problems is because 
kids and adults have failed to get the proper guidance.

I f  you have members of the staff that they can talk to, 
I feel that those kids and also their parents would feel

James A. Cook—for Plaintiffs—Cross



148a

like they had somebody that they could go to and talk 
to and explain their problems to.

—607—
Q. You mean to say you don’t think that the white 

teachers would counsel and guide a negro child ? A. That’s 
beside the point. The point is that it is better understand­
ing. The negro can better understand the kid than the 
white person.

Q. Well, that is true, I suppose, and will he for a good 
many years to come, though, will it not? A. Could be.

Mr. Manhein: That is all, Your Honor.
The Court: Anything further ? All right, you may 

step down.

(Witness excused.)

The Court: We will have a fifteen-minute recess, 
and then you may put on your proof, Mr. Manhein.

(Recess.)

James A. Cook—for Plaintiffs— Cross

# # # # #

— 610—
The trial of the case was resumed after the afternoon 

recess, on this date, Friday, June 25th, 1965, when and 
where evidence was introduced and proceedings had as 
follows:

The Court: Mr. Manhein, put on your first witness.
Mr. Williams: If Your Honor please, I would like 

to have the privilege to recall Mr. Cook for two 
questions.

The Court: All right.



149a

James A. Cook—for Plaintiffs—Redirect

— 611—
J ames A. Cook, the said witness, having been previously 

duly sworn, resumed the stand and further testified as 
follows:

R edirect Exam ination by M r, W illiam s:

Q. Mr. Cook, in addition to the inertia and the tendency 
to follow the line of least resistance, which I believe was 
mentioned by Mr. Meriwether, and you, is there any other 
reason why the split season in these negro schools tends 
to hinder negro parents from selecting a white school? A. 
I  believe I said some time ago there are some negro par­
ents that would be very much interested in sending their 
children to white schools, but they are fearful of economic 
reprisal.

Q. By virtue of their employment by white persons? A. 
Yes.

Q. Was this related to more than the segregated environ­
ment in which they lived? What is the point? Is this real 
fear, and what is the point—why would there be any 
point in the economic reprisal? A. It is an established

- 6 1 2 -
fact that every individual must strive to keep body and 
soul together—I would like to preface what I am about to 
say with this, by saying I have worked on a school board 
nineteen years; I only have thirty-three years, possibly, 
as a teacher, and there is one thing that would help the 
whole situation, and that is if you would take the school 
system out of the hands of politicians and put it in the 
hands of educators, we would have better schools. Usu­
ally, you will find in many instances, that the superintend­
ents and Chairmen of the Board and so forth do not have 
the privilege of hiring and firing. There are a number of



150a

people who have a lot of influence as to who will get a 
job, and who will not get a job.

I know in many instances the superintendents come and 
talk with me about various people they had in mind. They 
are men in the community, bankers and what-have-you, and 
have so much influence, they can say to that Board, “John 
gets a job, and Mary gets a job.” , and it is not altogether 
based on their academic training.

Mr. Williams: That is all I have.
— 613—

R ecross Exam ination by M r. M anhein:

Q. How would eliminating the split season affect what 
you call the “ economic reprisal problem” ; how do those 
two problems relate? A. Here’s how split seasons would 
eliminate economic reprisal; there are many people, as I 
said some time ago, who would send their children to a 
school which does not have a split season because they know 
it is very sound policy and practice not to have a split 
season, but if a man is working for a certain man—we 
are not free—that is an established fact, we are not free 
to do what we want to do. What we want to say—-what I 
want to say, there are certain individuals we cannot cross; 
if we do, I might not be working tomorrow.

Q. Wouldn’t everything you are saying now he true if 
we eliminated the split season schools? A. Here is an­
other fact that could be brought out— (interrupted)

The Court: Answer the question; we think Mr.
Manhein asked a good question.

A. Would you restate the question?

James A. Cook—for Plaintiffs—Recross



151a

The Court: Mr. Manhein started out asking you
— 6 1 4 -

how the split season would deter negro parents from 
sending their children to white schools and you an­
swered with the “ economic reprisal” , and he asked 
wouldn’t the economic reprisal be just as much there 
if you didn’t have split seasons. Let’s say we abol­
ished the split season up there right now and a 
negro parent was deciding whether to send the child 
to a white school or negro school; why wouldn’t the 
economic reprisal be just as much there? That is 
what he is asking for, an answer to that. Do I make 
myself clear?

The Witness: I am not sure, Judge, that I am 
following Your Honor.

The Court: I will try once more. Mr. Williams 
asked you how the split season prevented the negro 
parents from sending their children to white schools, 
and your answer was the economic reprisal. Now, 
wouldn’t the economic reprisal he just as much 
there if they went to a negro school which didn’t

- 6 1 5 -
have a split season as if it does have; if parents 
are not sending their children to white schools be­
cause of economic reprisals, which might be true, 
hut what does that have to do with split seasons 
in the negro schools? Do you understand?

The Witness: Yes, sir.
The Court: Well, answer it.

B y  Mr. M anhein :

Q. Will you answer the question, please? A. What does 
it have to do with the split season?

James A. Cook—for Plaintiffs—Recross



152a

The Court: Yes, sir; or go hack and answer Mr. 
Williams’ question talking about how the negro 
parents—  (interrupted)

Mr. Williams: That wasn’t my question.
The Court: Ask it again.
Mr. Williams: My question was, in addition to 

the inertia and the tendency to follow the line of 
least resistance, as already mentioned by you and 
Mr. Meriwether, sending negro children to white 
schools, what other reasons?

The Court: We understand the question; all you 
were asking the witness was for one more reason

- 616-

why they don’t send their children to all-white 
schools; and he answered, “ Economic reprisal” , and 
it had nothing to do with economic reprisal. Do 
you want an answer to that question?

Mr. Manhein: No, sir.

Q. Do you know of any case of that in Madison County? 
A. I know of one in particular, Miss Springfield.

Q. Is that the City School System? A. Yes, the City 
School System.

Q. Is that something already developed here in court, 
or do you know? A. Yes, I think so.

Mr. Manhein: That’s all I have, Your Honor. 
The Court: All right. Put on your witness, Mr. 

Manhein.

James A. Cook—for Plaintiffs—Recross



153a

J. L, Walker—for Defendants—Direct

—617—
J. L. W alker, the said witness, having been first duly 

sworn, testified as follow s:

D irect Exam ination by M r. M anhein:

Q. Mr. Walker, would you state again for us your ad­
dress— (interrupted)

The Court: Have the witness state his name in 
the record.

B y  M r. M anhein :

Q. Would you state your name? A. James Lafayette 
Walker.

Q. You are the Superintendent of Madison County School 
System? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would you give us your background? A. I have a 
B.S. Degree from the University of Tennessee and a Mas­
ter’s Degree from George Peabody College, and I have 
done additional work at the University of Tennessee and 
Memphis State University.

Q. And your educational experience? A. For two years 
I was principal and a classroom teacher in an elementary 
school, and for four years I was principal in a school with

— 6 1 8 -
grades from one through twelve, and one year was princi­
pal of a consolidated high school, and I have served as 
Superintendent of the Madison County School System for 
the past eight years.

Q. Mr. Walker, in recent weeks have you had, at my 
suggestion, a survey made in your school system there 
to determine what effect the elimination of this split season



154a

would have on the negro families in our school system? A. 
Yes.

Q. Would you just tell the Court what sort of a survey 
has been made, and how it was made, and what informa­
tion we were seeking? A. As you know, at your request, 
you said you would like to determine, if possible, the facts 
concerning those students that were needed to harvest. The 
conference— that is since the pre-trial conference, I  talked 
to Mrs. Beasley, and told her what we wanted, and told 
her to talk with the principals and let each principal get 
this information in his area. This was done.

Q. Was this done under your direction?

Mr. Williams: We object to that; we don’t know
—619—

what has been done.
The Court: Let him particularize a little more. 

B y  Mr. M anhein :

Q. Will you tell us how this survey was made and when? 
A. We were interested in this information, that is, the 
number of families that would be adversely affected if the 
schools were not dismissed in the harvest season, and also 
were interested in the number of families that were farm­
ers and the number of families who were not farmers, and 
would not be affected. I asked the supervisor to g’et this 
information from the different areas via the principals of 
each school. In a number of communities they had meet- 
ings in the schools, and some of it was done by telephone. 
That is the information we received from the negro prin­
cipals.

Mr. Williams: We object to this evidence on the 
ground it is incompetent. It is all hearsay.

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Direct



155a

The Court: There has been so much hearsay in 
this case already, Mr. Williams, we will overrule 
your objection, and admit it for what it is worth; 
it might not be hearsay, if it was made under his 
supervision.

— 620—

Mr. Williams: It is our contention he hasn’t at­
tempted to qualify it as an academic or administra­
tive survey made under his supervision; that has 
not been done; and he hasn’t tried to establish it 
scientifically; it wasn’t under his supervision, be­
cause he doesn’t know what techniques were used 
and we submit it is incompetent.

The Court: All right.

B y  Mr. M anhein:

Q. Mr. Walker, were you furnished reports by the super­
visor on the survey we are talking about? (Passing report 
to witness.) A. Yes.

Mr. Williams: We have the same objection to 
this, Your Honor.

The Court: All right.

B y  M r. M anhein :

Q. Is that the report you just referred to? A. It is.
Q. Now, would you examine that report and tell us the 

nature of its contents, Mr. Walker; exactly what does it
- 621-

show? A. This report shows the school communities and 
the number of families which would be adversely affected 
if the schools did not dismiss at harvest season. It shows 
the number of families and the community; and it shows

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Direct



156a

the number of families contacted on this survey and the 
number of families contacted who would be adversely 
affected.

Mr. Williams: We object to all this, Your Honor 
please.

The Court: We understand that.

Q. How many does the report indicate we have in the 
school system, the total number of farm families who have 
children in our school system? A. The number of families 
in the community, twelve hundred and forty-four.

Q. And how many families does the report show were 
contacted in this survey about this problem? A. Seven 
hundred and seventy-seven.

Q. And how many families does the report show would 
be adversely affected of these seven hundred and seventy- 
seven who were questioned? A. Three hundred and 
twenty-nine, forty-two or forty-three percent.

—622—
Q. And your forty-two or three percent is the ratio of 

three twenty-nine to the seven hundred and seventy-seven; 
is that what you mean? A. Yes, sir.

The Court: When you say, “Adversely affected” , 
Mr. Walker, do you mean that is how many your 
report shows who have their children harvest the 
cotton? That didn’t go into detail as to how they 
would get by without them, but that shows how 
many use them; is that correct?

The Witness: Yes, sir.

B y  M r. M anh ein :

Q. Are you saying that the seven hundred and seventy- 
seven did not represent families who use their children

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Direct



157a

for cotton-picking purposes? A. The seven hundred and 
seventy-seven is the number of families contacted out of 
the possible twelve hundred and forty-four in the county; 
and three hundred and twenty-nine of the seven hundred 
and seventy-seven stated they would be adversely affected; 
that is forty-three percent of the number contacted.

Q. They stated they would be adversely affected if the
—6 2 3 -

split season were eliminated in the school system? A. 
Yes, sir.

Q. Mr. Walker, what else is attached to this report, con­
sisting of several pages? A. The top fly sheet consists 
of a composite report of reports turned in by each prin­
cipal in his own handwriting or in some cases typed up, 
and the reports turned in.

Q. Those are the actual letters or reports received from 
the principals? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Mr. Walker, would you make this an exhibit to your 
testimony? A. Yes, sir.

(Thereupon, said document was accordingly 
marked Exhibit 1 to the testimony of the wit­
ness, and same will be found among the ex­
hibits attached hereto.)

Mr. Manhein: Your Honor, here is a copy.

(Passing copy to Court.)

Q. Mr. Walker, with reference now, to this matter of 
faculty integration, if the Court should order an integra-

— 624—
tion of these faculties, would that, in your opinion, create 
any administrative problem? A. There is a possibility it

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Direct



158a

could create two, in two different categories; one is it is 
possible— of course, it depends on which way the integra­
tion went—it is possible we would lose some of the white 
teachers we now have.

Mr. Williams: We object to that, Your Honor. 
That is not a competent reason for the denial.

The Court: Overruled.
The Witness: (Continuing) Which would bring an 

administrative problem, because we have a hard time 
now getting well qualified teachers of any race.

By Mr. Manhein:

Q. Exactly what do you mean? Some of the teachers 
may not be willing to continue to teach? Why? And what 
teachers do you have in mind, particularly? A. Of course, 
in observing a school program which is the superintendent’s 
position, it is necessary for us to be realistic. Of course, 
in Madison County we are in the process of desegregation,

—625—
but during this period we have a problem of tradition or 
custom we will be facing, and you have to face that. We 
have a number of people who have lived so long under 
this custom and tradition, and they have a right to resign 
if they don’t wish to teach. We have to be realistic about 
it.

Q. Is there any reason you think some of your teachers 
would object to a desegregated faculty school?

Mr. Williams: That is objected to as speculative. 
The Court: Is that any more speculative than 

some of your witnesses who testified as to what some 
of your children would do in a segregated school?

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Direct



159a

Mr. Williams: Yes, I think, if Your Honor please, 
because they were testifying on experience they had 
had.

The Court: They hadn’t had any experience, ob­
viously, because there hadn’t been any white people 
in the school where they were; they were giving 
their guess estimates based on their knowledge of 
human nature, and it seems to me Mr. Walker is 
giving his guess estimate from his knowledge of 
human nature.

—626—
Mr. Williams: I object.
The Court: Objection overruled.

B y  M r. M anh ein :

Q. I am asking you if you have reason to believe some 
of your white teachers would leave if it were desegregated? 
A. I think so.

Q. I will ask you if you expect resignations and if so, 
what you expect? A. Of course, it is an estimation; I am 
sure there will be a number of resignations; there would 
be so many factors, as to how many transferred—I 
couldn’t give an exact estimate of how many would be in­
volved in transfers.

Q. Have your teachers already been assigned to the 
next—  (interrupted)

Mr. Williams: That is objected to; if Your Honor 
please, this motion was filed several weeks ago; 
they have no right to go on with assignments with 
this motion in effect filed.

The Court: Objection overruled.
The Witness: Yes, they have.

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Direct



160a

J. L . W alker— fo r  D efendants— D irect 

B y  M r. M anhein :

Q. When was that? A. May or June Board meeting;
—627—

about the same time we do it each year. It would be neces­
sary for me to look at the Board minutes to be exact, 
but it would be the last of May or the first of June.

Q. Is it necessary, Mr. Walker, that these assignments 
be made in advance of the commencement of a school year? 
A. Yes, it is administrative practice— (interrupted)

Mr. Williams: Counsel has objected to my leading 
time after time.

The Court: Objection sustained.
The Witness: Yes, it is necessary to make assign­

ments as soon as possible, who will be working next 
year; a number of teachers make arrangements 
during the summer; they want to know what grade 
they will be teaching and they use the summer to 
get ready for the next school year. They don’t like 
to wait until the day before school opens to know 
where they are going to teach.

B y  Mr. M anhein :

Q. I f  there was an assignment of a number of colored 
faculty, would that create any disciplinary problems? A. 
It could.

—628—
Mr. Williams: I object to the leading.
Mr. Manhein: You have been leading all day long.
Mr. Williams: I tried to address the Court.
The Court: Mr. Williams said he was leading 

because some of the witnesses didn’t understand the



161a

questions, and we made him quit when he put his 
experts on, and this gentleman on the stand is an 
expert, and we will make you quit leading.

B y  M r. M anhein:

Q. Are there any problems you might anticipate if there 
was integration of faculties? A. Yes; as I stated before, 
there were two and the other one was a disciplinary prob­
lem.

Q. Will you tell us what you have in mind? A. Again, 
I will have to be realistic; discipline in a school is quite 
a problem at this time, and it is necessary for teachers 
to be in position to discipline children as problems come 
up, and to go back to this problem, I can see where if 
you had a negro teacher over a formerly white school

—629—
with a group of white students, there is a possibility that 
discipline would be a more serious problem than with 
white teachers. I don’t know what the future holds. These 
children bring feelings from home, regardless of who the 
teacher is or what school or school board; so it would be a 
smoother operation if we didn’t have disciplinary problems 
of that kind.

Q. Mr. Walker, have you had any applications from 
teachers of either race to teach in the school that was 
predominantly of another race? A. No.

Q. In other words, there has been no complaint from 
your teachers relative to this problem? A. No, not to 
me, no, sir.

Q. Do any other problems of an administrative nature 
occur to you that you haven’t already mentioned? A. I 
think the ones I have mentioned would be the main ad­

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Direct



162a

ministrative problems, keeping the teachers, and the dis­
ciplinary problems we went into in the earlier hearing, 
and we went into achievement matters, but that is a long 
strung-out problem.

Q. With which I think the Court is already familiar.
— 630—

The Court: It is a matter of record, yes, sir.

Q. Mr. Walker, in your school system you integrated 
the first eight grades this past school year; did you not? 
A. Yes.

Q. Have you had any incidents of a serious nature as 
a result of this situation? A. No, nothing has been 
brought to my attention by parents, students or faculty.

Q. Has there been any incident which might indicate 
that the— (interrupted)

Mr. Williams: I object to the leading, if Your 
Honor please.

The Court: Objection sustained.

B y  M r. M anhein :

Q. Mr. Walker, has there been anything to indicate that 
the negro children have been mistreated in any way? A. 
Not that I know of. I know of no negro child who has 
been mistreated when transferred to a formerly all-white 
school. In fact, when I talked to the teachers in the 
beginning of the system and explained this to the teachers, 
and we were under Court order, the teachers have given

- 631-

special attention to negro children transferred to formerly 
all-white schools.

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Direct



163a

Mr. Williams: I can’t understand whether the 
witness is saying “negro” or “nigger” .

The Court: He is not saying “nigger” .
Mr. Williams: I can’t be sure.
The Court: I  am sitting close enough to him to 

know he is saying “negro” ; they all pronounce it 
different ways.

Mr. Williams: I want them referred to as “negro” .
The Court: They all say it different ways; go 

ahead.
The Witness: We have been certain the white 

teachers spend a great deal of time with the negro 
children in the cafeteria, on the playground or on 
school property; and the teachers have been given 
instructions to see that the negro children got on 
school buses and so forth, and I don’t know of any 
instance where a negro was mistreated.

B y  M r. M anhein :

Q. You know of none? A. Not before today; I heard
—632—

a witness mention a report card.
Q. Had you had any knowledge of that before today? 

A. No, none whatsoever.
Q. Mr. Walker, from an educational standpoint, in your 

opinion, would there be any advantage or disadvantage 
to integration of the faculty at this time? A. In my 
opinion it would not be advantageous.

Q. Do you perceive of any disadvantage to the educa­
tional system? A. As I previously stated, during this 
integration period we would have some teachers who 
would resign, and we would have disciplinary problems 
in all those factors that enter into training children; of

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Direct



164a

course, to what degree, I  don’t know, because a lot of 
other factors come into that.

Q. What factor do you think is material to faculty in­
tegration of formerly all-negro schools; what effect do 
you think that might have on white students in formerly 
all-negro schools, if any? A. At this time I don’t think 
you would have any whites anyway, as only a few would 
go. It would depend on the number you put in a formerly

— 633—

all-negro school and what restrictions you put, but I don’t 
think that would encourage them to go. I  base that on 
this freedom of choice, and we have had no request for 
any to go.

Q. As a school administrator, Mr. Walker, and based on 
your experience, do you know of anything about an all- 
white faculty that might deter a negro child or parent 
from seeking knowledge from that faculty? A. I know of 
no reason why a negro child would be discouraged in 
entering a school with an all-white faculty; nothing has 
ever been brought out as to this.

Mr. Manhein: That is all, I believe, Your Honor.
The Court: Mr. Walker, before Mr. Williams 

starts cross-examining you, let me ask you this ques­
tion: Suppose you call for volunteers among your 
white faculty for teachers for negro schools and you 
call for volunteers among your negro faculties for 
teachers for white schools, what response do you 
think you would get?

The Witness: It is my opinion there might be 
some whites who would volunteer to teach in an all-

— 634-

negro school; what their motive would be, I don’t

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Direct



165a

know, whether they would feel they might help them 
some.

The Court: The Court would he interested if 
they ever take a step like that.

The Witness: I have no way of knowing of my 
own knowledge— (interrupted)

The Court: What do you think of the negro 
teachers? Would they volunteer to teach in white 
schools?

The Witness: At the present time I am thinking 
now of this next year which is nearest to us, in 
the first place, if  you had a negro teacher volunteer 
to teach in a white school, the first thing, you would 
have to move a teacher already assigned to teach in 
the white school, and that would create a problem.’ 
If we move one white teacher for another white 
teachers, it creates a problem, or one negro teacher 
for another negro teacher, it creates a problem; so 
I think it would create many problems at this time.

The Court: All right, sir. All right, Mr. Williams.
—635—

Cross-E xam ination by Mr. W illiam s:

Q. Mr. Walker, you had nothing to do with the prepara­
tion of this exhibit to your testimony, except to tell your 
negro supervisors to get it up? A. Yes, as I do most of 
my administrative work— (interrupted)

Q. You have no idea what was told the people on the 
spot or what they meant by “ adversely affected” ? A. I 
didn’t attend any meetings.

Q. In fact, one of these, East High School, is the only 
report which shows what kind of questions were asked, 
shows Question No. 1:

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross



166a

“Would your family be adversely affected? 
“Answer: Yes.” “Yes, ’67 and No, ’66.
“ Are you in favor of schools continuing to open 

in July?”
The answer is, “Yes, thirty-two, and “No, one 

hundred and nine” , and one hundred and one in 
“August” .

A. Actually, that is one hundred and one for and thirty- 
two against.

Q. Apparently, people who would be adversely affected,
— 636—

nevertheless, went ahead and said they were in favor of 
schools opening in August? A. I f that is what is down 
there; Mr. Beasley is the principal out there, and I am 
sure he put down what they said.

Q. I think you said in the pre-trial conference the split 
season was eliminated a year ago? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And they conducted a survey among white parents 
to determine whether or not it should be done? A. I think 
I stated the PTA ’s originally.

Q. Do you recall what the polls of the votes were? A. 
It would be an estimate, yes, sir, only a small percentage, 
something like ten percent, approximately.

Q. Do you actually recall what it was? A. In that area, 
ten percent.

Q. Approximately? A. Approximately.
Q. Here you have gotten some vague information that 

could be interpreted either way, but to read it, it says more 
than sixty percent of the negroes want to stop doing this 
—how do you differentiate between the ten percent and

—637—
the forty percent, to determine whether or not to continue

J. L. Walker-—for Defendants—Cross



167a

it? A. I think it was forty-three percent of the seven 
hundred and seventy-seven contacted wanted it done.

Q. You think what? A. Forty-three percent of the seven 
hundred and seventy-seven on this fly sheet.

Q. I don’t get it that way. The number of families 
adversely affected, three hundred and twenty-nine; num­
ber of families contacted, seven hundred and seventy-seven. 
A. Doesn’t that figure out forty-three percent?

Q. The number contacted— I see what you mean; you 
are saying this shows forty-three percent of the families 
contacted were adversely affected, and you assume they 
want to retain the split season system; is that correct? A. 
Based on that information. (Indicating report)

Q. But you haven’t checked any number of families to 
determine whether or not there would be any economic re­
sults? A. I didn’t think you would take my word for it, 
that is the reason I had them do it, the negro supervisor 
and principals.

— 638—
Q. Do you really have to pronounce that word that way? 

A. Counsellor, it is not my intention to offend you, but it 
is not my intention to change my enunciation to please you.

Q. You are not going to do anything to please me. A. 
I will do anything the Court says to do.

Q. And that’s all, what you have to do? A. (No audible 
reply.)

Q. You said you are a graduate of George Peabody and 
you had some additional work; when did you do that work? 
A. I had some of it even ten months ago.

Q. And, with that background, you are a servant of the 
public? A. Yes, I am elected by the public, and the policy 
of the School Board is the policy we follow.

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross



168a

Q. Are you relying on the policy of the School Board as 
to the faculties, whether they should not he desegregated? 
A. Not necessarily. What I have given you today is my 
opinion.

Q. How many teacher applications did you have last year, 
Mr. Walker? A. I have no way of knowing in this ex­
temporaneous questioning.

— 639—
Q. Approximately how many applications did you have 

last year for jobs? A. Total applications?
Q. Yes. A. I would have to estimate that. You mean 

during twelve months, a twelve months period?
Q. You said you were elected and assigned teachers in 

May or June. A. That’s right.
Q. During the year, how many applications of teachers 

did you have? A. I would estimate fifty.
Q. How many of those were negro, and how many white? 

A. As an estimate, I would say forty percent negro and 
sixty percent white, or maybe half and half.

Q. What percentage of those would you consider as the 
applications of highly desirable personnel? A. That is a 
question I can’t answer; I can only answer the question 
based on the number of people interviewed and checked. 
You see, we don’t check them all out until we get ready to 
employ them; most of these applications came from people 
outside the area of Jackson.

Q. You have had years of experience. Based on that
—6 4 0 -

experience, what percentage do you consider highly every 
year? A. I don’t have that information.

Q. You don’t have information with regard to that? A. 
I f  I understand your question, you are asking me what

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross



169a

percentage the colleges are turning out as qualified teach­
ers because of the people who apply to me?

Q. On the contrary. I am asking you from your experi­
ence in the last eight years, as Superintendent, how many 
people you have found on your applications you rated 
highly? A. I can answer this way of the numbers we have 
hired, I consider the majority highly desirable teachers.

Q. How many vacancies did you have to fill this year? 
A. Twenty-five, approximately.

Q. So that you have twice as many applications as 
vacancies? A. That’s right.

Q. And you have no idea how many teachers would re­
sign if you desegregated the faculties? A. No, I  don’t.

Q. How many teachers have you had resign because of 
integration of students? A. We have had no teachers

— 641—
resign—let me clarify that with “ To my knowledge” . We 
have had resignations, but they didn’t give that as the 
reason.

Q. I believe on the original trial in this case you gave 
the Court the reason for protesting, the teachers might 
resign because of colored students. A. I  am not sure.

Q. And that did not materialize. A. No; in my opinion, 
the teachers are to be given a lot of credit for carrying 
out as they have.

Q. The Board gives you instructions? A. Yes.
Q. And they are under your control on matters of the 

teachers and principals being desegregated; you have just 
indicated you have a negro supervisor. A. Supervising 
only negro teachers.

Q. And white supervisors supervising only white teach­
ers ? A. Only one supervisor, and that supervisor is white 
and supervises all teachers.

J. L. Walker-—for Defendants—Cross



170a

Q. But the negro supervisor supervises none of the white 
teachers? A. Not directly, in the intermediate training 
we have them all.

—642—
Q. Will you state whether or not it is one of the aims 

of the Tennessee School System to develop ideals of 
democracy in students ? A. Yes.

Q. Will you state whether or not desegregation of facul­
ties is conducive of developing this ideal? A. To what 
degree ?

Q. Any degree. A. I  see nothing wrong with the present 
system.

Q. You said, “present system” ; when do you plan to 
change it? A. That would he left to the School Board.

Q. You cannot state to the Court at this time any time 
in the future you plan to discontinue it? A. I am not in 
a position to state that.

Q. Teachers are assigned by the Board upon your recom­
mendation? A. That’s right.

Q. Do you usually assign teachers sometimes according 
to their desires? A. Of course, we always take into con­
sideration the teachers’ desires, but you don’t always do 
that when the assignment of teachers is made; the assign­
ments are made to places you feel they are best suited.

— 643—
Q. And that is done by the Board, with the advice of 

the Superintendent? A. That is correct.
Q. And the teachers must comply with that, or give up 

their jobs? A. They are required to work where the 
Board assigns them.

Q. Nevertheless, the negro teachers of the applicants 
you have for teachers jobs meet the same requirements 
required for white teachers? A. Based on the colleges.

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross



171a

Q. Are you saying there is some difference? A. I am 
merely telling you what it is based on.

Q. Do you have any other basis for qualifying negro 
teachers—what I am saying, is there any other standard 
of qualification established by the Board of Education for 
negro teachers? A. Oh, yes.

Q. What other standards ? A. We don’t employ teachers 
without an interview; there are a number of factors that 
are involved; everyone graduating from a college may 
not fit into a situation in a particular community or par­
ticular age group and so forth.

—644—
Q- And you are adding onto those factors the factor 

of race, are you not? A. It is an established fact that 
Madison County School System is not integrated, and has 
never been.

Q. You have stated, Mr. Walker, as an expert, there 
are no advantages to desegregation of faculties; are you 
still adhering to that? A. You mean education-wise?

Q. Yes. A. I  see none.
Q. You mentioned disciplinary problems as a reason for 

not desegregating teachers; do you call that education? 
A. Yes.

Q. As a matter of fact, that is the only way you can 
bring in here what otherwise represents hostility to the 
teachers; and that is the only way you can bring it in. 
A. That would create that problem.

Q. What other difficulty do you anticipate a negro teacher 
would have with white students? A. Of course, a number 
of things could happen; I would hope there would be none, 
but I would anticipate some, depending on what age level

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross



172a

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross

—645—
you have negro teachers; I think from junior high on up 
you would have more problems.

Q. You expect a junior high would have greater prob­
lems? A. Yes.

Q. Would you explain to the Court why that problem 
is different from the problem the negro teachers are 
coping with now? A. Going back to the fact that this is 
my opinion, the junior high through the senior high level, 
you would have problems if you have negro teachers in 
the formerly all-white schools.

Q. You don’t desegregate your high schools next year, 
do you? A. Next year will be the first year we will be 
going into desegregation in classes nine through twelve 
in our high schools.

Q. And I am asking you if you will, or can, to explain 
to the Court how those disciplinary problems the negro 
teachers will confront, the attitude of white children, will 
differ from the racial problems they encounter every day? 
A. I would think, from being realistic, as I said earlier,

—646—
these children bring to school some of the attitudes of home.

Q. May I ask is that attitude that they are not accus­
tomed to have negro teachers? A. They have not been 
accustomed to having negro teachers.

Q. And not accustomed to having negro teachers over 
them? A. No, they are not.

Q. What reaction do you think this would cause? A. I 
think it could easily cause disturbances in the school, and 
would disturb the whole school.

Q. Why? A. We have to take, for instance, and these 
things could happen; children are not sometimes too easy



173a

to discipline as they get older, and I can easily see why 
we would have a problem if you put a negro teacher over 
them. No. 1, in my opinion, for instance, if you put a 
negro man in a junior high group, the Board will have 
to support the teacher, regardless of what race the teacher 
is, because you have to have discipline, and then you have 
repercussions later on, and the students have a tendency

— 647—
to pick these things up.

Q. You think this attitude would get worse as the chil­
dren grow older; it would get stronger and stronger? 
A. I think it would at this time. I have no way of knowing 
later on; I think that the desegregation of the children 
has gone off very well.

Q. But you don’t think the same thing would be applied 
to the teachers? A. I don’t know.

Q. You have explained that the attitude they bring from 
home and that these attitudes will get stronger and 
stronger in situations where negro teachers teach only 
negro students, and white teachers teach only white? A. 
No, I don’t think so; eventually this barrier will be broken 
down.

Q. When do you begin breaking it down? A. In the 
future.

Q. Sometime in the future? A. I don’t know when the 
teachers will be desegregated.

Q. I thought you said you were going to desegregate 
them next year? A. I don’t know what the degree of 
desegregation will be.

Q. Meaning?

The Court: Go ahead, Mr. Williams.

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross

—648—



174a

Q. Mr. Walker, state whether or not it would be an ad­
vantage of desegregated faculties from a disciplinary 
standpoint to have teachers present of the same race as 
the offending students in the case of disciplinary problems 
between a teacher of a different race than that student,' 
with that student? Do you follow me? A. Yes, I follow 
you; even though you carried me all around, I think I 
follow you. Let me be sure I understand; you want to 
know if there would be race disciplinary problems— (in­
terrupted)

Q. No, I want to know whether or not it could con­
ceivably be an advantage in a case or situation as outlined, 
in the opinion of the Madison County School Superin­
tendent, where some white teacher with a negro student 
in school, say, they didn’t understand these children well, 
some of their behavior that was related to this former 
life that they have been living, I am asking would it not 
be an advantage to have a negro teacher there in school 
to whom a white teacher could go and find out how negroes 
think? A. The answer to that is no. In our system the

—6 4 9 -
discipline is handled between the teachers and the princi­
pal; if there is a serious problem, the parents would be 
called in to talk with the teachers and principal; and I 
feel we could get that from the parents better than a 
teacher who might not even know the child.

Q. You mean teachers don’t discuss these problems in 
the school? A. They are mentioned in faculty meetings, 
but you wouldn’t call in another teacher to settle your 
problems; they are settled between the teachers and the 
principal and parents.

Q. You feel it is not reasonable, then, that white teachers, 
as they begin to be associated with negro teachers in the

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross



175a

schools, would begin to develop a better knowledge of 
negroes and, therefore, be aided in disciplinary as well 
as educational problems as to negroes? A. Not from 
just being on the same faculty.

Q. They would gain nothing from being on the same 
faculty? A. It depends on the teacher, without getting 
into specifics.

Q. Not getting into specifics, is there any probability 
white teachers might benefit from having negro teachers

—650—
on the faculty? A. I will answer the question this way. 
It is possible to learn from anyone.

Q. I f  you found a white teacher would learn something 
from having a colored teacher that enabled her to solve 
a problem of a negro child in her class, that would he 
an advantage. A. If that happened, it could be.

Q. You do concede that is possible? A. It is possible.
Q. So there are possible advantages of faculty desegre­

gation, aren’t there, Mr. Walker? A. There might be, as 
you put it, in some specific case.

Q. Will you explain, Mr. Walker, to the Court why you 
are addressing your testimony on an obvious basis with­
out prejudice? A. Sure, I am not prejudiced.

Q. You are not prejudiced at all? A. About what?
Q. Anything. A. Yes, I am against sin and dishonesty, 

fraud and all such.
Q. You are not against segregation in the schools?

— 651—
Mr. Manhein: I object to that. That is irrelevant.
Mr. Williams: I think it is relevant, Your Honor, 

being his attitude.
The Court: Go ahead, Mr. Williams.

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross



176a

J. L. W alker— fo r  D efendants— Cross  

B y  M r. W illiam s:

Q. Are you against negro teachers in the school! A. 
I f  it affects the learning process.

Q. You are not against it, only if it affects the learning 
process! A. I am going to do what the Court ordered 
me to do.

Q. But you are against it? A. I am not against what 
the Court orders me to do.

Q. But, without the Courts having ordered you, would 
you— (interrupted)

Mr. Manhein: I object.
The Court: You are going a little too far, Mr.

Williams.
Mr. Williams: I respectfully except, Your Honor.

Q. Mr. Walker, you mentioned something about achieve­
ment level problems, are you relying on those as to the 
reason the faculties should not be desegregated? A. No.

—652—
Q. As a matter of fact, when your testimony was intro­

duced in this case about achievement level, it was brought 
out the achievement level gap between negro and white 
children develops as they go along in school and tends 
to widen the further they go? A. According to our 
records, yes.

Q. And this would support the theory that the longer 
you wait under the segregated school system, the further 
the negro child falls behind? A. That, I don’t know.

Q. As an educator, wouldn’t that be a natural logical 
conclusion to draw? A. There are those among the greater 
minds making studies to determine why these achievement 
levels are so far apart.



177a

Q. I am not saying why they are so far apart; I said 
the older a negro child gets in a segregated school system, 
the wider the achievement level gap? A. In our system, 
the records bear that out.

Q. Would you concede if you mix your faculties that 
you are liable to get a little more desegregation in your 
schools? A. Among the students?

—653—
Q. Yes. A. I have no way of knowing that.
Q. You have no way of knowing how many teachers 

would resign, either, do you, Mr. Walker? A. Not by 
judging.

Q. You attempted to make an estimate on that? A. 
Yes, sir.

Q. And I ’m asking you to make an estimate on if  you 
did make some substantial negro teacher assignments in 
your schools; do you feel like you would get less segrega­
tion in your schools? A. Based on the testimony I have 
heard today, I am sure there would be.

Q. You don’t agree with that testimony, do you? A. 
Well, I would have to know a little more about what was 
said today, but based on what they said, people had told 
them they would send their children, but they haven’t told 
me.

Q. If that happened, that would be an advantage of a 
non-segregated teacher assignment; wouldn’t it? A. If 
it improved the achievement level, it would be.

Q. Were you present here the other day when Dr. Wein­
stein testified? A. No, sir.

— 654—
Q. He said that the children under a desegregated sys­

tem, the gap tends to narrow. Weren’t you aware of that? 
A. I have made no study on that.

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross



178a

Q. You are not the expert in this area, are you? A. 
What area?

Q. This desegregation of schools. A. I  don’t know how 
much would have been told to me about it, but I have been 
exposed to it for a few years.

Q. Mr. Walker, I asked you to bring some records with 
you today; have you brought those with you? A. Yes, 
but I want to point out to the Court I didn’t get the sub­
poena until yesterday morning, which is rather short notice 
to gather that information, and I am not sure I have it a ll; 
if something is left out, it was due to the limitation of time.

Q. I want to apologize for the lateness, and ask you if 
you will introduce these records—first, I would like to ask 
you if you would introduce them as the next exhibit in 
this hearing, the original copy of the document which you 
prepared entitled, “ Total Enrollment of Pupils in Madi­
son County in 1964-65, Elementary— ” A. Elementary is 
on one sheet and high school on the other, do you want 
both at the same time?

— 655—
Mr. Williams: Elementary and high; that docu­

ment that is stapled together as the next exhibit.
The Court: Does that show the breakdown be­

tween white and negro?
The Witness: Yes, sir.
Mr. Williams: That one does not, but the next 

one does.

Q. Will you introduce the next one, ’65-’66 school year? 
A. Yes. It has an asterisk beside the negro children. This 
one was for the last year we just completed (indicating 
documents).

J. L. Walker-—for Defendants—Cross



179a

(The above mentioned documents were accord­
ingly marked Exhibits 1, 2 and 3 respectively, 
to the testimony of the witness, and same will 
be found among the exhibits hereto.)

The Court: This Exhibit 2 is a total number, not 
a breakdown of races?

The Witness: No, sir.
The Court: What is No. 3?
The Witness: That is the total children registered

— 656—
for ’65 and ’66, and we have an asterisk by the negro 
children who are—you will notice across from first, 
second and third grades.

The Court: For example, Blair School, two hun­
dred and forty-eight, and the asterisk means they 
are negroes; is that right?

The Witness: Yes, sir.
The Court: On that hundred and forty-two in 

Broden School.
The Witness: That is Browns School, three negro 

pupils; one in the sixth grade, one in the fourth 
grade and one in the eighth grade.

The Court: I  see.

B y  Mr. W illiam s:

Q. I take it Exhibit 3, the pupils with the asterisks, like 
Blair, two forty-six; East Elementary with three 0 nine; 
Green, four ninety-two; and so forth are all-negro schools; 
are they not? A. Formerly negro schools.

Q. They still are negro schools insofar as pupil assign­
ment and teacher assignment? A. Not from assignments; 
they have a choice.

J. L. Walker-—for Defendants—Cross



ISOa

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross

— 657—

Q. But, actually, they are still all-negro? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Browns School with three negroes, three out of a 

hundred and forty-two; Huntersville with eighteen out of 
seventy-two and Windover, twenty out of a hundred and 
three, are all desegregated white schools? A. Correct.

Q. The total figures up to sixty-eight negro children in 
a total of approximately four schools for the school year 
of next year; is that correct? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And turning to the white—turning to the high schools, 
fifteen negro children out of five ninety-five, North Side 
and nine out of five seventy-seven in the South Side, total 
of negro high school children in white schools; that is 
correct, isn’t it? A. That is correct,

Q. Isn’t it true that you are winding up with your reg­
istration this year with the exact figure of negroes in school 
with whites that you listed in the Southern School News 
formally for ’64-’65 as having had last year, sixty-eight? 
A. I didn’t read that. I don’t know what was listed in the 
Southern News.

— 658—
The Court: That isn’t the important fact, Mr. 

Williams. The important fact is whether or not it 
increased from last year. Just ask him that.

B y  Mr. W illiam s:

Q. It hasn’t been increased? A. Yes, sir, we have sixty- 
eight.

Q. And you had four last year in high school as a result 
of the Court order; didn’t you?

Mr. Manhein: We object to that; you have that 
case mixed up.



181a

The Witness: We had only two in high school 
last year. This was the electronic publication we 
were discussing.

B y  Mr. W illiam s:

Q. This is inaccurate, then? A. We have increased.
Q. Although you only began the high school this year, 

you have actually two more than you had last year; is 
that correct! A. That’s right.

Q. So there is— actually not much desegregation in your
— 6 5 9 -

school system? A. I don’t know what you mean by “ much” .
Q. There is not actually much going to school with white 

children by negroes? A. Not too much, no.
Q. Have you brought the information regarding teachers 

and the qualifications for the last year, ’64-’65 qualifica­
tions? A. (Passing documents to counsel.)

Mr. Williams: Your Honor, we would like to 
make this Exhibit 4, please.

The Court: All right.

(Whereupon, the above mentioned document was 
accordingly marked as Exhibit 4 to the testi­
mony of the witness, and same will be found 
among the exhibits hereto.)

The Witness: It takes quite a bit of time to get 
information of this sort up, so the information I am 
bringing there is from a manual we put out each 
year for teachers; so you will find it isn’t type­
written, as are the others; we didn’t have time to go 
back and get all that.

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross



182a

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross

The Court: Go ahead.
— 660—

B y Mr. W illiam s:

Q. Will you introduce as Exhibit 5, I believe it would be, 
the documents you have brought representing the teachers’ 
information for the ’65-’66 school year! A. Yes, that is 
the one where you requested the names of the teachers and 
the class they are to teach and their qualifications?

Q. Yes.

(The above document was accordingly marked 
Exhibit 5 to the testimony of the witness, 
and same will be found among the exhibits 
hereto.)

B y  Mr. W illiam s:

Q. So you have no knowledge of any other problem that 
would actually prevent your assigning teachers without 
respect to race? A. I have had no experience in that area, 
so I cannot answer.

Q. You haven’t questioned teachers in the past to try 
to find out what their experience would reflect; have you?

—661—
A. That is correct.

Q. Mr. Walker, would you agree it could conceivably be 
of any educational advantage to children to be exposed 
to teachers of a different race group? A. I haven’t had 
any experience in integration, so I have no basis on which 
to answer.

Q. I said an educational advantage, Mr. Walker; would 
you agree it could be educationally advantageous to a 
child to be exposed to a teacher of another color group?



183a

A. I would say it is possible, but it depends on the cir­
cumstances under which it is done, the environment, local­
ity and so on, and all these factors enter into this, and I 
can’t give you an answer on these things.

Mr. Manhein: Your Honor, haven’t we been over 
all this?

The Court: We went over some, but not fully. 

B y  Mr. W illiam s :

Q. Have you heard of teacher exchange programs? A. 
Yes.

Q. Have you ever participated in any teacher exchange 
program? A. No.

— 662—
Q. Do you, as an educator, see the soundness of a teacher 

exchange program? A. It could be, if properly handled.
Q. It could be by integration of teachers you would pos­

sibly have the same effect as teacher exchange programs? 
A. Not at this time.

Q. Why do you say, “at this time” ? A. I hate to keep 
going over this problem, but if you want to hear it, I will 
say it again.

Q. No, we went over some problems with the mixing 
of students and haven’t had it. A. We expect some prob­
lems, yes.

Q. Now, there is no question but that a teacher’s pro­
fessional association does have something to do with her 
professional qualifications; doesn’t it? A. Yes.

Q. And the School Board recognizes a segregated white 
teachers’ association and a segregated negro teachers’ as­
sociation; is that correct? A. They have a separate asso­
ciation.

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross



184a

Q. S ir! A. They have a separate association.
Q. The School Board recognizes them, does it not? A.

—663—
The School Board has no authority over the professional 
associations; they don’t prohibit their belonging to those 
associations.

Q. You all recognize them and give them the day off 
from work with pay to attend these associations! A. It 
is counted in-service.

Q. But you have segregated in-service training? A. We 
have segregated and desegregated in-service training.

Q. They are segregated and desegregated? A. We had 
had two days reading workshop last week.

Q. That was segregated? A. Yes, sir. And the teach­
ers are making plans to be present prior to the opening of 
school; you want to have the teachers present prior to the 
opening.

Q. Your counsel has kept saying to the Court he wants 
to find out some figure by elimination of segregation in all 
the school systems— (interrupted) A. Of course, if  you 
were going to eliminate segregation throughout, you 
wouldn’t have to count that.

Q. What? A. You wouldn’t have to count in any man­
ner, shape or form— (interrupted)

Q. It would be impossible on every meeting to be sure
— 664—

you had negro and white teachers present in every meet­
ing, and it would be that basis as to whether or not there 
was segregation. A. I understand that, but so long as 
there was no problem of segregation on account of race, 
then you wouldn’t require definition there; would you have 
some kind of line to go by, dividing line?

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross



185a

Q. You mean you would want to know whether you were 
having a segregated meeting and a non-segregated meet­
ing? A. h o . I  would want to know whether we were going 
to he brought back into court if we had a meeting with 
no negroes present or negroes with no white teachers pres­
ent. You never know what degree you have to count on, 
whether or not you have— (interrupted)

Q. You mean you couldn’t determine whether or not you 
were acting according to race or not? A. I could deter­
mine it, counsellor but I am sure you would agree that is 
why we need guidelines to go by.

Q. You wouldn’t want to know that if the Court di­
rected you to assign teachers without regard to race? A. 
Yes, I would want to know to what extent.

Q. You would want to know—you would want this Court 
to interfere with your position? A. We would have to 
have guidelines.

— 665—

Q. You would want the Court to tell you how many 
negro teachers to assign to each school? A. Not if you 
would be happy with our decision, but knowing you wouldn’t 
be happy, we have to have guidelines.

Q. We would be happy if the Court simply ordered you 
to assign teachers in Madison County with regard to need 
and qualification, and without regard to race. A. Then I 
would carry out the Court’s order.

Q. Suppose we say that we would be happy with that; 
why would that create any administrative problem for you 
if you had the administrative control as you do have, if 
you were not told which schools, but told to assign children 
and teachers regardless of race, suppose that would be 
the type of Court order? A. We would follow the Court 
order.

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross



186a

Q. And there wouldn’t be any objection to that? A. It 
could be, depending on the plaintiffs.

Q. Suppose the plaintiffs said to you they would not 
object unless and until they had something that appeared 
to be conclusive evidence that you were not acting in good 
faith in carrying out the Court orders. A. You have a lot 
of people involved, and I don’t think you could get those

- 666-

people together, taking into account at best the plaintiffs 
could be any one of a hundred and seventy-five thousand 
people.

Q. You are subject in this lawsuit only to the ones in 
this case; another case is another case. A. I  want a guide­
line, a Court order, and we can go down the line as we 
did last year.

Q. I realize that, and I know it is late, and I am saying 
suppose the Court furnished you with the Court order, a 
general order saying to you that hereafter you will forth­
with re-assign teachers or otherwise deal with teachers 
on an individual qualifications and merits basis and need, 
without regard to their race or color, and then left it up 
to you in your administrative job to determine which 
teachers should be put where! Why wouldn’t that be a 
perfectly reasonable order which you wouldn’t have very 
much quarrel with! A. I ’ll answer again; I  think I an­
swered earlier it would be better for me, as Superintend­
ent, to have a guideline, rather than something general. 
We have to know wdiat to do, and to what degree to do it 
and in order to satisfy the Court and the plaintiffs, not 
just this group, but there are thousands of other people 
that could bring us back down to Court. We need to oper-

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross



187a

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross

— 667—

ate the school system, and we need to know how the Court 
wants it operated.

Q. Suppose they had them to get in this case as inter­
vening- plaintiffs before you could be brought back? A. 
Are you saying they would not bring us back?

Q. Yes, sir. I f  I stated to you that the plaintiffs in this 
case would be satisfied with such a general order of this 
Court which directed the other things I have stated on 
teachers, without regard to race, and I ’ll add one thing 
with regard to continuing rights of teaching which per­
mitted your firing them and— (interrupted)

Mr. Manhein: Aren’t we getting into an improper 
question ?

The Court: It is hard to say. Mr. Williams, you 
are asking this witness what kind of order he would 
like, if you could concede with your other clients, 
you would concede to that?

Mr. Williams: It may be pointed out, if Your 
Honor please, I know this would be fruitful.

Q. Mr. Walker, let me ask you this: You do see you can’t 
forever continue to operate the school system on dealing

— 668—

with children on a non-racial basis and continue to assign 
teachers on a racial basis. A. The only thing I concede 
to is that I will do whatever the Court orders me to do. 
Beyond that, I have no authority, and as to following that 
administrative procedure to meet that order, then I will 
follow that.

Q. You are not here as a free agent testifying, but as



188a

an agent of the Board testifying what they told you to 
testify? A. No, but I am not testifying as a prophet.

Q. What? A. I am not testifying as a prophet; I  know 
of no way of knowing what the future holds.

Q. Good. Then, you know what teachers will resign be­
cause of integration of negro teachers in the white schools ? 
A. No, I can only estimate.

Q. You are not a prophet, then. You decline to make 
an estimate on whether or not it would be necessary to 
desegregate faculties in the future?

The Court: What could what might occur in the 
future have to do with this?

Mr. Williams: As I recall, if Your Honor please,
— 669—

Your Honor has referred to a Sixth Supreme Court 
case, and as I recall in that case, the Court made a 
very pointed remark, indicating the feeling of the 
Court in the establishment of assignments bi-racially, 
which would logically indicate the assignment of 
teachers on a bi-racial basis.

The Court: I think the Court meant the estab­
lishment of faculties would be bi-racial without any 
order of any Court in time. But what is the point 
of asking this witness to guess about that?

Mr. Williams: He has been guessing about every­
thing else.

The Court: Go ahead.

B y  M r. W illiam s:

Q. Would you concede this could happen? A. I think 
in the future it could happen, as I stated earlier and some 
of the institutions be desegregated.

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross



189a

Q. Some of the students are already desegregated, 
aren’t they? A. Yes.

Q. I believe you previously testified that you have put
- 6 7 0 -

in various courses in the school system without any diffi­
culty; have you not, Mr. Walker? A. Various what?

Q. Various new courses, broad courses like Spanish in 
the elementary schools? A. No.

Q. You haven’t established that in your elementary 
schools ?

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross

The Court: Mr. Williams, Spanish in the ele­
mentary schools?

The Witness: No Spanish in the elementary
schools.

B y  Mr. W illiam s:

Q. Have you established any new curriculum in the 
schools? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Name a few of them. A. We have electronics for 
the high school group.

Q. How long did it take for you to put that in? A. I 
think a year to eighteen months in the total process of it.

Q. What else? A. We have so many courses offered I 
would have to go back to the records to see what has

— 671—
been added over the eight years. We have the same courses 
offered in all high schools and the same courses in all 
elementary schools.

Q. You say you don’t have any problem with bus routes 
any more? A. I didn’t say that.

Q. I mean with regard to negroes; you are furnishing 
buses to negroes on which to ride to school? A. In my



190a

opinion, no child, especially the negro child, in Madison 
County, has been denied transportation to school.

Q. What about the Westover route! A. The bus was 
for the number of negro children who wanted to attend.

Q. That is when I had to make a trip all the way down 
from Nashville! A. I don’t know whether you had to or 
not, but you did.

Q. I had— (interrupted) A. You brought it up over a 
weekend; but we brought the children to the Westover.

Q. But, due to the fact you had been putting them off at 
the end of the route for the white children, and letting

— 672—
them walk two or three miles home; did you not!

The Court: Mr. Williams, haven’t we been over 
this!

Mr. Williams: I am asking, Your Honor, if the 
bus situation has been straightened out.

The Court: You can ask him now, but you are 
going back and dealing in history now.

The Witness: It has been straightened out.

B y  Mr. W illiam s:

Q. And you no longer have the problem of negro parents 
begging for the things given to white children? A. I think 
that is covered in the Court order. In fact, these negro 
students who have registered to attend all-white schools, 
formerly, not covered last year, I directed the transporta­
tion supervisors to find out where they live, and route 
transportation for them. I don’t know what other prob­
lems may arise, but we are taking care of them.

The Court: Nothing further, Mr. Williams?

J. L. Walker—for Defendants—Cross



191a

Colloquy

Mr. Williams: No, sir.
The Court: All right, Mr. Manhein?
Mr. Manhein: Nothing further, Your Honor.
The Court: Is that your last witness?

—673—
Mr. Williams: Yes, sir.
Mr. Manhein: Yes, sir.
The Court: Gentlemen, I don’t think it is neces­

sary to argue this motion. You can hand in briefs 
in the next week, if you desire to do that. I f  you 
don’t, we have been over the pre-trial discussions 
and we understand them better, both as to law and 
fact, but, if you like, you can hand in memoranda 
in the next week.

Mr. Manhein: Your Honor, I don’t think there is 
any more I could say.

The Court: That is your prerogative.

(Thereupon, the court adjourned at 6:00 o’clock, 
p.m., until 9:30 o’clock Monday morning, June 28, 
1965.)



192a

Certification

—674—
I hereby certify that the foregoing 673 pages are, to 

the best of my knowledge, skill and ability, a true and 
accurate transcript of the shorthand notes of Helen Ander­
son and the stenotype notes of Hardy L. Fly in the case of

B renda K ay  M onroe, et al., 

—versus—
Plaintiffs,

B oard op C om m issioners op 
T he  C ity  op J ack so n . T ennessee , et al.,

D efendants.

Civil Action No. 1327

This 10th day of February, 1966.

H ardy L. F ly  
Official Court R ep orter  
United States District Court 
Western District of Tennessee



193a

R eport of S urvey on N um ber  of F am ilies  
A dversely A ffected by S chools O pen in g  

in  A ugust

Defendants’ Exhibit 1

Number
Families

Adversely
Affected

Number 
Families in 
C ommunity

Number
Families

Contacted

Blair .................... 17 50 50

Denmark .............. 84 283 133

East ................... . 32 298 133

Greer .................... 29 83* 83

Pleasant Plains ... 28 36 30

Rosenwald .......... 67 123* 123

St. John .............. 10 41 20

Tri-Community ... 12 63 55

W est...................... 50 267 150

Total ............ ... 329 1244* 777

Numbers include families of children in high school



194a

BLAIR SCHOOL

Survey made in the community 

on

Parents who would be adversely affected by school opening 
in Aug. 17

Parents not adversely affected by school opening in Aug. 33

Ernest E. Golden

Defendants’ Exhibit 1

Denmark Elementary School 

June 15, 1965

Mr. James Walker, Superintendent 
Madison County Schools 
Jackson, Tennessee

Dear Mr. Walker:

The number of families here in our community which 
will be adversely affected by schools opening in August 
instead of July comes to eighty-four (84).

Very truly yours,

/ s /  R ex Cubby

Rex Curry, Principal

N um ber fam ilies contacted— 133



195a

Defendants’ Exhibit 1

6-16-65
East High School

The results of the survey conducted by the principal 
and some faculty members of East High and Elementary 
School to determine the number of families that would be 
adversely affected by schools opening the last of August 
and continuing through the cotton harvesting season:

Number of families contacted— 133

Number of families adversely affected— 32

Note:

Families were contacted through the following means:

1. Telephone

2. Home visitations

3. Call meeting at the school

The questions asked of all families interviewed were:

1 . Would your family be adversely affected if 
schools should open the latter part of August 
and continue in session through the cotton 
picking season? This would mean your child, 
or children would be required to remain in 
school through the harvesting season.

Yes 67 No 66



196a

D efendants’ E xhibit 1

2. Are you in favor of schools continuing to open 
in July and closing for the cotton picking- 
season?

Yes 32 No 101

3. Are you in favor of schools opening in August 
and remaining in session throughout the har­
vesting season even though your family income 
would to an extent be affected?

Yes 101 No 32

/%/ S. W. B easley , Principal



197a

L. R. C u n n in g h a m , Principal Phone: 7-6020

GREER SCHOOL 

Route 1

D e n m a r k , T ennessee 

June 16, 1965

Results of a survey of parents who have or will have 
children attending Greer Elementary School as whether 
they would be adversely affected by school opening in 
August and running straight through for nine months in­
stead of opening in July and closing for the regular har­

Defendants’ Exhibit 1

vesting season

Voting in favor  ................. ..............................  5 4

Voting against ..................................................... 29

Note: All of these except 3 or 4 stated that if it is known 
before planting time that schools are going to 
open in August and run straight through for nine 
months they would plant accordingly and favor the 
proposal completely.



198a

Defendants’ Exhibit 1

Tri-Community School 
Route 5
Jackson, Tennessee 38301 
June 17, 1965

— School Opening—

The number of parents who will be adversely effected 
by schools opening in August and continuing without a 
break is 1 2 .

/ s /  Marie W illiams,
Principal

Number o f families contacted— 55

R eport of Survey 

6-17-65

Fam ilies A d verse ly  A ffected  i f  Schools 
Open in A ugust

No. Families No. Families
Adversely Affected Contacted

Pleasant Plains ........... 28 30
Rosenwald ............ ........ ......... 67 123
St. John ......... . 10 20
West ...... ........ ......... 50 150



TOTAL ENROLLMENT OF PUPILS IN MADISON COUNTY, TENNESSEE
1005--1 DSC 

(ELEMENTARY)

GRADES ____1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 TCTJSL

SCHOOL (ELEMENTARY)

Leech B l u f f  E le . 30 34 , 64 55 57 45 45 65

B lair *41 *36

—

*36
:
! p ‘*3 7

i
L ! *21 ! ............................. *248

; Nr ; 13 \ ; 30 142
Browns 13 20 13 1 1 21 * 1 : 20 i *  1 ................. .. *- 8

Denmark *51 *101 *98
!
! *80 *87 *74

i
; *98 ! *57

East E le , *31 *48 *36 ! ! 5 *23 *43 *5 7
i
i *40

Fairview 15 16 12 m e 0 .5 15 ! 19 ; 12 ................. .. 120

Greer *4:1 *45 *23 | 1*30 ,54 : *53 • #42 -x-2 g 9
11 7 9 1 8 12 8 i 8 72

H untersville *3 *2 *2 £ ■ *N -V?A *2 *3

Malesus 51 50 67 54
i

' 67 5 9 55 52

Mercer 11 16 '8 15 ' 14 16 21 ........... .. ..................  120

Oakfield 16 26 23 20 1 19 2 8
■
i ;-l0 21

Pinson 18 24 18 19 ! i 9 . 24 i i

Pleasant Plains *32 *30 *14 •A 8 1*22 ;*25 *13 *2 2

P op e 42 46 55 35 ; 54 A A c cv-/

;
i

48!

Rosenwa.ld *30 *32 *39 *36 ! *47 -Y-4 OAi
!

*29! vC-9 O 7■ ■■HHUHHKHalMH Aid/

k.D 2. :« Jonn *23 *16 *-20 *■23. j *24 ! *i 2
.

*18
;

*27!

T ri— Community *  20 *14 ! *19 *29
i i
: v(24 i*23 : *28

j
*::2 2 ;

19 20 i 21 22 ; 22 | 80 ■ 19 2 0 ; 173
M e s t o v e r *2 *1  ! * 4 * i ! * 2  ! -x 4 *3 *3 !

91 85 85 74 j 93 1 75 : 100 92! 6 96
J , B. Young *2 *4 *3 *5 ,! * 3 i *1 ■i *6! .............. ..  *  27

GRAND TOT AL

* Negro s tu d e n ts  e n r o l le d  in  t h is  s c h o o l ,

** 13 S p e c ia l  E du cation  p u p i ls  in c lu d e d  in  t h is  t o t a l

The above fig -a res  were taken from  the r e g is t r a t i o n  h e ld  on A p r il  16 and 17 , 1965 

T o ta l e n ro llm en t t o  d a te  f o r  1965-66 . . . . . . .  7493



199a

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 3



200a

P lain tiffs ’ E xhibit 3

(See Opposite) Eir’



TOTAi ENROLLMENT OF PUP L A  
1965-19c o

n U i b u ;  (JOUNT'

GRADES 9

o
 

1—I i i 12

225

SCHOOL 

Beech B lu f f 66

1

40

|
j
1i■
! 60

!

| K  C;

■ n _  o j_ *125 , , ^ : -72

131 15 5 ; 1 7 ':' 5S5
N orth  S id e *2 '0 *• 8 133 -;ei qJL

139
137 577

South S id e 143 ■>r A*1- 15 3 ! -J'- C: kJ w C

TiT 4. *146 i—1
 

1—1 Co

j
: "'ICO lo  ; /; 3 0
' GluAD total 2 2 z J

* Negro s tu d e n ts  e n r o l le d  in  t h i s  s ch o o l

Trie above f ig u r e s  are from  the r e g is t r a t i o n  h e ld  on A p r il  16 and 17 , 1965,



201a



202a

Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 6

(See Opposite) 8®"



PLACEMENT FOR NEXT YEAR

It is recommended that the pupil work in Grade __next school year.

:ntPARENT'S SIGNATURE AND

j'.r.vc-'.n)  X l ,  A . ~j A. d -* 1—/ ]'.: Xls

Report C~ d for Grades 3-9

„ J

- V
flame'-' ^  " 'A . . . Gradey;-

Pri:;cipalG>a -NxY--_bp- _t-e _ _ fbkpAL-.-trM^-Teaeher-- b  J ) :

7
//Z l,

J

GRADING KEY

J’LGlnev:;sac-nt: I.oiler grades in.dicab- the pupil’s :
of v/hat is reasonable to e:q:-ect at this Oracle level in e;v:h su::..

A — High Ach:lavement B— Go a

C—Average D—Lc raising

F— V.: 1 V  Low Achieve:nent (No Credit)

Personal AcbioYon:.ciit (Pic;j r —Numbers beside the grad-.. iieate th
achievement in terms of his apparent ability and effort.

1—  Is doing exceptionally good in terms of his own all. >\

2—  Making progress consistent with his ability.

3— Progress not consistent with his ability. Needs to prove.

TO ALL CONCERNED:

This report is designed to inform you of the progre:: : ring made in si. 
ject fields and in personal and social growth. The L - - trade indicates 
score given on a comparative basis. The numbers wr. reside the letf.— 
indicate personal effort in terms of apparent native : : . . and applicr.tie 
As an aid to further understanding, cither the teacher a' nrent may requ.. 
a personal conference with the other.

JAMES L. - . .XEH 
Superintend

P rcv.t r Prin ting  Co.. -Jackson,  Term.



203a



204a

P laintiffs ’ E xhibit 6

(See Opposite) US?"



GilOY/TII O  CONDUCT .AND HABITS

Areas which need improvement are checked.

PERIOD
1 2 4 5 6

SOCIAL ATTITUDES (CONDUCT)

Does not respect authority

Does not respect rights of others

Does not play well with others

Is not courteous

Is not cooperative

|

WORK HABITS (EFFORT) j

Does not use time, energy and materials well 

Does not take pride in neat, accurate work .. .. L__.

Does not complete work started

Does not work independently

Does not work quietly

HEALTH HABITS

Does not keep neat and clean

Does not relax during rest period

Does not practice good eating habits

Does not sit, stand nor walk correctly

Does not practice safety rules

RECORD OF ATTENDANCE

1 2 3 4 5 6

Days Present X? -P7
- I

v  / X/
Days Absent 0 o c £
Times Tardy L. .

/
/

GwlOY/TII KT SCHCGT. cubkjACTS
A grade and a number are given opposite each subject. Thf cb.ee < mar ;s by tb
items under the subject explain reasons /or grades. 2 |3 ! 4 c ] 0 ’ (}

READING
o! -) ' X o , T .

p  1
f )  j

■f

Docs not read well oraily .. 4
Does not understand what is read 
Is not reading cm grade level

1
; i

i
i

LANGUAGE n -  w 
p y l \

4
/

Does not speak clearly and correctly : ! .
Cannot express ideas in writing ]___|
Does not know required fundamentals i
Does not have good listening habits

t

SPELLING % i k - i A- . i- ~A-
Does not learn textbook assignments
Does not spell correctly in written work

WRITING s .h
r ) v p A

,0 i
•

Does not practice skills in ail written work
Does not have satisfactory speed i 1

ARITHMETIC p .0 bi -1 L

Is not mastering numbers, facts and skills
Is not able to solve reasoning problems __

APPRECIATIONS
p 'i lyf

. n .
( y /

Does not take part in music activities
Does not take part in art activities
Does not enjoy literature selections

HEALTH \th ' i : p Bd
Does not understand health facts i
Does not practice health rules I

PHYSICAL EDUCATION x & t d-i—i b _
Is not developing good sportsmanship 1i—
Is not gaining skill in physical activities 1 4 .

SCIENCE J > 'iItf
Docs not understand and remember facts .. ! i

Is not interested in experiments i

SOCIAL STUDIES (Geography, History, Civics)
A ._ y A| i c /V■v.

Does not understand facts
Cannot interpret facts in terms of present day

Does not remember facts



205a

rative, 
press 

is and, 
t such 
plain- 
1, 576 
sented 
ven to 
Negro 
teach- 
ils are 
Negro 
ecause 
ijority 

other 
issign- 
en re- 
te and 
e plan 
order

activ- 
n that 
e sep- 
es de­
ns set 
re not

entary 
in the 
notice 
in the



206a

Filed August 2, 1965 

[Caption Omitted]

Plaintiffs have filed a motion for additional relief, which
raises these issues:

1. Whether plaintiffs are entitled to an order requiring 
the integration of faculty, administrative and supporting 
personnel.

2. Whether plaintiffs are entitled to an order requiring 
the integration of teacher in-service training and profes­
sional activities.

3. Whether plaintiffs are entitled to an order requiring 
more advance notice of registration dates and more time 
for registration.

4. Whether plaintiffs are entitled to an order requiring 
abolition of segregation in extra-curricular activities.

5. Whether plaintiffs are entitled to an order requiring 
an abolition of the “ split season.”

6 . Whether plaintiffs are entitled to recover attorneys’ 
fees.

Inasmuch as we have just filed a memorandum decision 
in the case involving the City of Jackson, in which we deal 
with several of the issues raised by this motion, we will 
refer to what we said in that decision as well as the au­
thorities cited therein and thereby shorten this opinion.

Memorandum Decision



207a

With respect to integration of faculty, administrative, 
and supporting personnel, plaintiffs are entitled to press 
only a claim for integration of faculty and principals and, 
as to faculty and principals, only to the extent that such 
action is necessary to abolish discrimination against plain­
tiffs as pupils. M app  v. Chattanooga, 319 F.2d 571, 576 
(6th Cir. 1963). We believe that on the proof presented 
plaintiffs are entitled to the same relief as that given to 
plaintiffs in the City case, i.e., white teachers and Negro 
teachers must not be barred, because of race, from teach­
ing in schools in which all or a majority of the pupils are 
of the other race. This would mean that white and Negro 
teachers, who so desire, would not be prevented, because 
of his or her race, from teaching pupils all or a majority 
of whom were of the other race, but that all of the other 
usual factors may be considered in determining the assign­
ment of teachers. The fact that this policy has been re­
scinded must be publicized so that all teachers, white and 
Negro, will be aware of this change of policy. (We plan 
to insert such a requirement as to publication in the order 
to be entered in the City case.)

As to teacher in-service training and professional activ­
ities, the proof indicates that the only segregation that 
remains results from the fact that the teachers have sep­
arate professional organizations over whose policies de­
fendants have no control. In any event, for reasons set 
out in our opinion in the City case, plaintiffs are not 
entitled to relief in this case.

Defendants have consented to hold a supplementary 
registration in July, 1965, and have consented, in the 
future, to give 30 days rather than 10 days advance notice 
of the registration dates. The proof shows that, in the

Memorandum Decision



208a

future, additional time for registration will not be neces­
sary if defendants give 30 days advance notice thereof.

With respect to curricular and extra-curricular activi­
ties, the order as originally entered in this case is not suffi­
ciently clear, and therefore plaintiffs are entitled to an 
order specifically providing that there must be no discrim­
ination in curricular and school-sponsored extra-curricular 
activities. However, as stated in our opinion in the City 
case, we do not believe that the Jackson Symphony inci­
dent amounted to unconstitutional discrimination.

Plaintiffs again seek an order abolishing the “ split sea­
son” in the schools attended only by Negroes. We dealt 
with this contention, and the reasons why we denied relief 
are set out, in our prior opinion which appears in 229 
P. Supp. 580, 584. Plaintiffs offered further proof that 
the split season, if it ever was economically necessary, is 
no longer so and that it is not desired by a substantial 
number of Negro parents. Defendants offered proof that 
at least a majority of Negro parents consider it necessary 
and desire that it be continued. Defendants have never 
contended that the split season is educationally sound and, 
at the hearing on this motion, formally stipulated that it 
is not.

However educationally disadvantageous, economically 
unnecessary, and generally unwanted it may be, we do 
not believe that the split season amounts to unconstitu­
tional discrimination. Historically, it existed in heretofore 
segregated schools for both races, though it was abolished 
in the schools for white pupils some years before this liti­
gation began. Therefore, it was not discriminatory when 
instituted, and it was not continued in the schools for 
Negroes, when it was abolished in schools for white pupils, 
in order to promote segregation. Moreover, in the volun­

Memorandum Decision



209a

tary and free choice plan for desegregation adopted by 
defendants and approved by this Court, any Negro pupil 
who desires to avoid the split season may do so by simply 
choosing to attend a school where it does not exist. And, 
as we pointed out in our prior opinion (229 F. Supp. 580, 
584), if it is as unwanted generally and is as economically 
unnecessary as plaintiffs contend, the existence of the 
split season in the schools attended now only by Negroes 
will create an impetus for Negroes to attend schools where 
it does not exist. It will, therefore, tend to promote inte­
gration rather than tend to preserve segregation. In short, 
we believe this is a question that must be solved by con­
sultation between the interested Negro community and the 
school authorities, and it ultimately may become a political 
question. It cannot be resolved by this court by labelling 
it as unconstitutional discrimination when it is not.

While plaintiffs sought an award of attorneys’ fees, they 
offered no direct proof on this issue and in particular 
offered no proof that they have incurred a liability to pay 
fees. Moreover, the proof does not show that defendants 
have violated the order heretofore entered and have not, 
subsequent to that order, disregarded plaintiffs’ constitu­
tional rights. The application for attorneys’ fees is there­
fore denied.

An order will be prepared by the parties for entry.

E nteb  this 2nd day of August, 1965.

B ailey  B row n

United S tates D istrict Judge 

A  T btje C opy .

A ttest :

W. L loyd J ohnson  Clerk  
By V. L a  F on D.C.

Memorandum Decision



210a

Order

Filed August 9, 1965 

[Caption Omitted]

This cause was heard the 25th day of June, 1965 before 
the Honorable Bailey Brown, United States District Judge, 
sitting without intervention of a jury, upon the Motion 
for Further Belief against the defendants, County Board 
of Education of Madison County, Tennessee, and James 
L. Walker, Madison County Superintendent filed herein 
by the plaintiffs, the issues having been formulated in a 
pretrial conference held May 26, 1965, without subsequent 
entry of a pretrial order, the evidence introduced by the 
parties in open court, arguments of counsel, and the entire 
record, from all of which the court finds and holds that 
the plaintiffs are entitled to certain relief upon some of 
the issues, but that the relief sought by plaintiffs should 
be denied on other issues, as hereinafter provided, and as 
more fully stated in the Memorandum Decision filed by 
the Court on August 2 , 1965, which is hereby made a part 
of the record and is adopted as the Findings of Fact and 
The Conclusions of Law made by the Court upon said 
motion for Further Belief.

It is therefore, Ordered, A djudged, Decreed, and E n­
joined by the Court as follows:

1. The application of plaintiffs for an order requiring 
integration of faculty is at this time denied. However, the 
policy of defendants of assigning white teachers only to 
schools in which the pupils are all or predominantly white 
and Negro teachers only to schools in which the pupils 
are all Negro is by this order rescinded to the extent that 
white teachers, who so desire, will not be barred from



211a

Order

teaching in schools in which the pupils are all or pre­
dominantly Negro, and Negro teachers, who so desire, will 
not be barred from teaching in schools in which the pupils 
are all or predominantly white.

To implement this change in policy, defendants must 
forthwith, as to substitute teachers, and each year begin­
ning with the year 1966-67, as to all teachers, publicize it 
and obtain from each teacher an indication of willingness 
or an indication of objection to teaching in a school in 
which the pupils are all or predominantly of the other 
race. All teachers who indicate such a willingness will be 
assigned to schools without consideration of the race of 
the teacher or the pupils, but all other usual factors may 
be considered in assigning teachers. Nothing in this order, 
however, will be construed as requiring the assignment of 
an objecting teacher to a school in which the pupils are 
all or predominantly of the other race or will be construed 
as requiring a refusal to employ or a dismissal of a teacher 
who objects to teaching in such a school. This change in 
policy will be effective as to substitute teachers during the 
remainder of the school year 1965-66 and as to all teachers 
beginning with the school year 1966-67.

2. The application of plaintiffs for an order requiring 
integration of administrative and supporting personnel is 
denied.

3. As to teacher in-service training and professional ac­
tivities, the plaintiffs are denied relief as to integration of 
these activities.

4. In the future, defendants will give thirty days rather 
than ten days advance notice of school registration dates,



212a

Order

and the Order of the Court of May 21, 1964 is amended 
accordingly.

5. Defendants will eliminate all racial discrimination 
and segregation in curricular and school-sponsored extra­
curricular activities.

6 . The prayer of plaintiffs for relief as to the “ split 
season ” which prayer was allowed by the Court to be 
added to plaintiffs’ motion for Further Relief in the pre- 
trial conference, is denied.

7. The application of plaintiffs for attorneys’ fees is 
denied.

8 . Jurisdiction of the case is retained by the Court 
pending full implementation of desegregation in the Madi­
son County School System, and either party may apply.

Entered this 9th day of August, 1965.

B ailey  B kow n , Judge 
U nited S tates D istrict Judge



213a

Notice of Appeal

Filed September 7, 1965 

[Caption Omitted]

Notice is hereby given that the plaintiffs, Brenda Kay 
Monroe, by next friend, William Monroe, Harold Dwayne 
Walker, by next friends, Frank Walker and Mrs. Rolean 
Walker, Georgia Stephanie Springfield, by next friend, 
Mrs. Mildred T. Springfield, Beverly White and Glenda 
White, by next friend, Glynn White, Benita Jean Benson, 
Bruce Wesley Benson, Dyka Lojuna Benson, and Linda 
Senora Benson, by next friend, Nathaniel Benson, Carolyn 
Cole, by next friend, Currin Cole, Jr., William Monroe, 
Frank Walker, Mrs. Rolean Walker, Mrs. Mildred T. 
Springfield, Glynn White, Nathaniel Benson, and Currin 
Cole, Jr., hereby appeal to the Circuit Court of Appeals 
for the Sixth Circuit from the judgment entered in this 
action on the 9th day of August, 1965.

Z. A lexander  L ooby and 
A von N. W illiam s , Jr.

327 Charlotte Avenue 
Nashville, Tennessee 37201

J. E m m ett  B allard

116 W. Lafayette Street 
Jackson, Tennessee

J ack  G reenberg 
J am es M. N abbit , III 
D errick  A. B e ll , J r .

10 Columbus Circle 
Suite 2030
New York, New York 10019 

By Avon N. Williams, Jr.

A ttorn eys  fo r  P laintiffs-A ppellants



214a

1. April 14, 1965

2. May 10, 1965

3. Aug. 2, 1965

4. Aug. 9, 1965

5. Sept. 7, 1965

6. Sept. 7, 1965

7. Oct. 15, 1965

8. Nov. 16, 1965

9. Nov. 16, 1965

Docket Entries

[Caption Omitted]

Filed Plaintiffs’ Motion for Further 
Relief against defendants County 
Board of Education of Madison 
County and James L. Walker, Madi­
son County School Supt.

Filed Defendants (County Board of 
Education & James L. Walker, Madi­
son Co. School Supt.)—Reply to Mo­
tion for Further Relief.

Filed Memorandum Decision of Court 
relating to County Schools.

Filed Order on Memorandum Deci­
sion relating to County Schools.

Filed Notice of Appeal from Judg­
ment entered Aug. 9, 1965 relating to 
Madison County Schools.

Filed Bond for Costs on Appeal.

Filed Order extending time for filing 
and docketing appeals to Nov. 17, 
1965.

Filed Motion of Plaintiffs for an ex­
tension of time for filing and docket­
ing appeals.

Filed Order granting plaintiffs addi­
tional time to and including Dec. 6, 
1965 in which to docket appeals.



215a

D ocket E ntries

10. Nov. 29, 1965

11. Jan. 21, 1966

12. Feb. 14, 1966

Filed copy of Motion of plaintiffs 
filed in U. S. Court of Appeals to 
extend time to and including Jan. 16, 
1966 in which to file and docket ap­
peals —  said Motion having been 
granted.

Filed copy of Motion of plaintiffs— 
granted by U.S. Court of Appeals al­
lowing an extension of time for filing 
records on appeal until Feb. 25, 1966.

Filed Court Reporter’s Transcript of 
Proceedings.

I, W. Lloyd Johnson, Clerk of the United States District 
Court for the Western District of Tennessee, do hereby 
certify that the above index of docket entries is a true 
and correct copy of all material docket entries as appear 
on the docket in this office.

This the 23rd day of February, 1966.

W. L loyd J o h n son , Clerk

By L. La Fon
D eputy  Clerk



216a

Clerk’s Certificate

[Caption Omitted]

I, W. Lloyd Johnson, Clerk of the United States District 
Court for the Western District of Tennessee, do hereby 
certify that the papers transmitted herewith and enumer­
ated below comprise the Record on Appeal in the above 
entitled matter:

1. Motion for Further Relief

2. Defendants reply to motion for Further Relief

3. Memorandum Decision of Court relating to County 
Schools

4. Order on Memorandum Decision relating to County 
Schools

5. Notice of Appeal from Judgment entered August 9, 
1965

6. Bond for Costs on Appeal

7. Order extending time for filing and docketing ap­
peals to November 17, 1965

8. Motion of Plaintiffs for an extension of time for 
filing and docketing appeals

9. Order granting plaintiffs additional time to and in­
cluding January 16, 1966, in which to file and docket 
appeals

10. Copy of Motion of Plaintiffs granted by Court of 
Appeals

II. Copy of Motion of Plaintiffs granted by Court of 
Appeals

12. Court Reporter’s Transcript of Proceedings



217a

C lerk ’s Certificate

In Witness Whereof, I have hereto subscribed my name 
and affixed the seal of said Court at Jackson in said Dis­
trict, this 23rd day of February, 1966.

W. L loyd J o h n so n , Clerk

By V. La Fon
D epu ty  Clerk



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