Bradley v. Robb Transcript Volume II

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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Bradley v. Robb Transcript Volume II, 1985. f40c9fa8-ca9a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/b74fe7d7-edf5-4dd7-8df8-873085d029b7/bradley-v-robb-transcript-volume-ii. Accessed May 20, 2025.

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IN  THE UNITED STATES D IST R IC T  COURT FOR THE EASTERN D IS T R IC T  OF V IR G IN IA  RICHMOND D IV IS IO N
CAROLYN BRADLEY, ET A L . ,  and THE SCHOOL BOARD OF THE C IT Y  OF RICHMOND, ET A L . ,P l a i n t i i i s ,v .  CA 3353 RCHARLES S .  ROOD, E T C .,  and THE C IT Y  OF RICHMOND, ET A L . ,D e fe n d a n t .

November 7 ,  1985 R ich m o n d , V i r g i n i a
B e i o r c :  HONORABLE i OtiERT R . MERH1GE, J R . ,U m t e u  S t a t e s  D i s t r i c t  Ju d y e

V O L . I I

GILBERT FRANK HALASZ, RPR O i r i c i a i  C o u r t  R e p o r te r



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I N D E XW I T N E S S ; DRK
WILiiERT JE N K IN S 422MELVIN DOUGLAS LAW 437ROBERT L .  CRAIN 465



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THE CLERK: C I V I L  ACTION 3 3 5 3 -R .CAROLYN BRADLEY, ET A L . V . CHARLES S .  ROBB, ET A L . CONTINUED FROM YESTERDAY.ARE COUNSEL READY TO PROCEED?MR. W ILLIA M S: Y E S , YOUR HONOR.MR. MINCBERG: Y E S , YOUR HONOR.MR. LUCYK: WE ARE.THE COURT: GOOD MORNING.I  AM GLAD EVERYBODY MADE I T .  I  GUESS THE ANSWER IS  TO LIST E N  TO THE RADIO STATION THAT TELLS YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR. SOME SA ID  THE WATER WAS CUT O F F , SOME SA ID  IT  WAS ON, BRIDGES CLO SED . I  AM GLAD YOU ARE ALL HERE. ALL R IG H T . DOCTOR, COME BACK TO THE STAND, P LE A SE , MA'AM.YOU ARE ALMOST THROUGH, I  CAN ASSURE YOU.YOU MAY CR O SS-EXA M IN E.CROSS-EXAM INATIONBY MR. W ILLIAM S:Q . DR. JO N E S , I  WOULD L IK E  TO HAVE YOU LOOK AT AN E X H IB ITINTRODUCED EY THE P L A IN T IF F , SCHOOL BOARD, YOUR E X H IB IT  1 3 .DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF E X H IB IT  13 BEFORE YOU?A . Y E S , I  DO.Q . NOW, D R. JO N E S , E X H IB IT  13 I S  ENTITLED SOURCE OFFUNDING FOR COMPENSATORY AND REMEDIAL INSTRUCTIONAL PROGRAMS IN  RICHMOND P U B LIC SCHOOLS. IT  HAS A SOURCE OF FUNDING FROMTHE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOL D IS T R IC T , FROM THE STATE AND FROM



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THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. I  WANT TO DRAW YOUR ATTENTION TO THE TWO YEA R S, 1976 THROUGH 1 9 7 7 , AND FROM 1977 THROUGH 1 9 7 8 . IN  YOUR E X H IB IT  HOW MUCH PU B LIC FINANCING DO YOU HAVE PROVIDED FOR COMPENSATORY AND REMEDIAL INSTRUCTIONAL PROGRAMS FROM THE STATE OF V IR G IN IA  FOR THOSE TOO YEARS?THE COURT: NOW, MR. W ILLIA M S, I  AM GOING TO HAVE —  I  D IS L IK E  APPEARING TO START WITH YOU, BECAUSE I  SHOULD HAVE STARTED IT  YESTERDAY.MR. W ILLIA M S: Y E S , YOUR HONOR. THAT IS  A GOOD PLACE TO START.THE COURT: WELL, THE POINT I S ,  I  HAY NOT BE THE BR IG H TEST, BUT I  CAN READ.MR. W ILLIA M S: SU R E , YOUR HONOR.THE COURT: ALL YOU HAVE TO DO I S  POINT IT  OUT. JU S T  POINT IT  OUT IN ARGUMENT. NO NEED TO HAVE THE WITNESS READ, UNLESS YOU HAVE DOUBTS OF MY C A P A B IL IT Y .HR. W ILLIA M S: NONE WHATSOEVER, YOUR HONOR. I  W ILL REPHRASE THE Q U ESTIO N , YOUR HONOR.THE COURT: W ELL, IT  I S  BEST NOT TO EVEN ASK I T .  BUT YOU GO AHEAD.BY MR. W ILLIA M S:Q . Y E S , DR. JO N E S , DO YOU KNOW THE REASON WHY NO FUNDSWERE PROVIDED FOR THOSE TOO YEARS?A . NO, MR. W ILLIA M S, I  DO NOT KNCWT THE REASON WHY.
Q .  DR. JO N E S , I  WANT YOU TO TURN TO THE NEXT E X H IB IT



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INTRODUCED, YOUR E X H IB IT  1 4 , E X H IB IT  14 I S  ENTITLED CHILDREN IN  REMEDIAL READING PROGRAM. IT  PROVIDES THE PERCENTAGE OF THE A . D . M. FOR THE ST A TE, RICHMOND, HENRICO AND CH EST ER FIE LD . AS YOU CAN S E E , THE PERCENTAGE FOR RICHMOND IS  HIGHER FOR THE YEAR STATED IN  THAT CHART THAN IT  I S  FOR THE ST A TE, HENRICO OR CH EST ER FIE LD . NCW, I  WOULD L IK E  TO ASK YOU, DR. JO N E S , IN  LIGHT OF THE REMEDIAL PROGRAM WHICH YOU HAVE PRESENTED, AND IN  LIGHT OF SOME OF YOUR PROPOSALS TO IMPROVE THE PU B LIC SCHOOLS, DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE OF WHERE YOU WOULD L IK E  TO BE IN TERMS OF THE PERCENTAGE OF CHILDREN IN  REMEDIAL PROGRAMS ULTIM ATELY. WHAT YOUR GOAL WOULD BE?A . YOUR GOAL IS  ALWAYS TO NOT HAVE YOUNGSTERS IN REMEDIALPROGRAM. THE GOAL IS  TO ELIM INATE THE NEED FOR REMEDIAL PROGRAMS, BUT UNTIL YOU ARE ABLE TO DO THAT, YOUR GOAL I S  TO TRY TO SERVE ALL OF THOSE WHO HAVE D E F IC IE N C IE S . AND SO YOU WOULD HAVE —  YOU WOULD SEEK TO TRY TO HAVE THE LEVEL OF SER V ICE THAT I S  COMMENSURATE WITH THE LEVEL OF NEED.Q . D R. JO N E S , WOULD YOU BE TRYING TO ACHIEVE A GOAL MOREOR LE SS COMPARABLE TO THAT OF HENRICO AND CH EST ER FIE LD , WOULD THAT BE A REASONABLE GOAL, DO YOU THINK?A . I  DON'T KNOW WHAT THE GOAL IS  OF HENRICO ANDCHESTERFIELD IN  TERMS OF THE THEIR GOAL OF ACHIEVEMENT, BUT I  WOULD SAY THAT OUR INTENT IS  TO HAVE THE EXTENT OF RESOURCES TO RESPOND TO THE YOUNGSTERS WHO WOULD NEED REMEDIAL EDUCATION, AMD THE DATA SUGGESTS THAT WE HAVE A LARGER NUMBER



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AS WELL AS PERCENT OF SUCH YOUNGSTERS IN NEED OF REMEDIAL SE R V IC E S AND PROGRAMS.0 .  I  S E E .WOULD YOU TURN TO YOUR E X H IB IT  1 5 , D R. JO N E S . N0W, IN E X H IB IT  15 YOU HAVE COMPARATIVE STATE EDUCATIONAL S T A T IS T IC S  AGAIN FOR RICHMOND, HENRICO, AND CH EST ER FIE LD . I F  YOU LOOK AT THE F IR S T  S T A T IS T IC S , DROP OUT RATES, RICHMOND HAS A HIGHER DROP OUT RATE THAN ANY ONE OF THOSE THREE. DO YOU HAVE A GOAL FOR DROP OUT RATES THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE FOR RICHMOND THAT WOULD BE COMPARABLE TO THE FIGURES FOR EITHER ONE OF THOSE THREE?A . OUR GOAL IS  A REDUCTION, A S IG N IF IC A N T  REDUCTION OFOUR DROP OUT RATE. AS STATED, IT  IS  S IG N IF IC A N T L Y  HIGHER THAN THE OTHER TWO SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S  AND IT  IS  HIGHER THAN THE ST A TE- WIDE PERCENTAGE.OUR GOAL I S  TO REDUCE, TO CONTINUALLY REDUCE THAT NUMBER OF STUDENTS THAT F A IL  TO REMAIN IN OUR SCHOOLS. IT  IS  OUR GOAL TO BRING I T ,  CERTAINLY TO THE LEVEL OF THE STATE AND BELOW. WE FEEL THAT WE HAVE THE RESOURCES, AND THE RESOURCES NOT NECESSARILY MEANING F IN A N C IA L , BUT WE B E LIE V E  WE HAVE AN EDUCATIONAL PROGRAM THAT IS  DESIGNED TO SERVE YOUNGSTERS AND THAT WITHOUT THEIR USE OF THAT THEY ARE GOING TO FIND THEMSELVES GROSSLY INCAPABLE OF FUNCTIONING OUT IN THE REAL WORLD. SO REDUCING THE DROP OUT RATE AND MAKING OUR YOUNGSTERS SU CCESSFU L GRADUATES OF OUR SCHOOL D IV IS IO N  I S  AN



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ON GOING GOAL. HAS BEEN FOR A NUMBER OF Y E A R S.Q . NCW# DR. JO N E S , DO YOU CONSIDER A COMPARISON BETWEENTHE RICHMOND SCHOOL SYSTEM AND CHESTERFIELD AND HENRICO COUNTY TO BE APPROPRIATE?A . AS STATED HERE, AS FOR INFORMATION, P R IM A R ILY .THE CONCERN IS  GENERALLY Ha/ ONE WORKS AS RELATED TO WHO IS  CLOSEST TO THAT GEOGRAPHICALLY AND OTHERW ISE. IT  IS  STATED THERE THAT TO G IV E  THAT INFORMATION, THAT IS  USUALLY THE INFORMATION MOST IN ANY P E R SO N 'S M INDS. NOT HOW YOU COMPARE WITH PERSONS WHO ARE ON THE OTHER SID E  OF THE COUNTRY, SIM PLY BECAUSE THESE AR EAS, THESE JU R IS D IC T IO N S  SORT OF FLOW ONE INTO THE OTHER. PERSONS MOVE IN AND OUT OF THESE GEOGRAPHIC REGIONS ON A D A ILY B A S IS . TO MANY PERSONS THERE I S  THE QUESTION OF HOW ARE THESE OTHER JU R IS D IC T IO N S  PERFORMING IN VARIOUS CA TE G O R IES, AND TO THAT EXTENT WE HAVE SHARED IT  HERE.Q . DR. JO N E S , DO YOU KNOW I F  THE STUDENT —  IF  THESTUDENTS ATTENDING CHESTERFIELD OR THE CHESTERFIELD SCHOOL SYSTEM ARE MOSTLY WHITE?MR. LUCYK: O B JE C T IO N . NO FOUNDATION LA ID  FOR HER KNOWLEDGE OF THAT PARTICULAR FACT.THE COURT* NO. O B JECTIO N  IS  OVERRULED.A . THE ANSWER IS  Y E S .Q . DO YOU KNOW I F  THE STUDENTS ATTENDING THE HENRICOCOUNTY SYSTEM ARE MOSTLY WHITE?



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A . Y E S .Q . AND THE STUDENTS ATTENDING RICHMOND SCHOOL ARE MOSTLYWHITE?A . NO.Q . WHAT ARE THEY?A . PREDOMINANTLY BLACK.Q . NOW, DO YOU B ELIEVE GIVEN SU F F IC IE N T  A SSISTA N CE ANDRESOURCES THAT BLACK CHILDREN CAN BE MADE TO ACHIEVE OR REACH A DROP OUT RATE COMPARABLE TO THAT OF W HITES?A . THE POINT THAT WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO MAKE THROUGHOUTT H IS  CROSS CLAIM  HAS BEEN THAT IT  IS  P O S S IB L E , BUT IT  IS  ONLY P O SSIB LE  THROUGH EXTRA AND MORE IN TEN SIVE EFFORT. THAT INCLUDES RESOURCES.Q . I F  YOU WERE GRANTED THOSE RESOURCES, WOULD IT  BEREASONABLE TO TRY TO ST R IV E  FOR A GOAL OF DROP OUT RATES COMPARABLE TO THOSE OF WHITE CHILDREN SUCH AS ARE ATTENDING HENRICO AND CH ESTER FIELD ?A . I F  WE B E LIE V E  CHILDREN CAN LEARN, AND I F  WE B ELIEVETHAT PEOPLE CAN IMPROVE, THAT IS  P O S S IB L E , Y E S . BUT WE ALSO MUST BE LIE V E  THAT IT  DOESN 'T JU S T  HAPPEN, I T  HAS TO HAPPEN AS A RESULT OF CONCERTED EFFORT AND GREATER EFFORT FOR PERSONS WHO HAVE SUFFERED OVER TIME CERTAIN V E ST IG E S OF SEGREGATION, SUCH AS POPULATION THAT WE HAVE REFERENCE TO IN RICHMOND C IT Y  SCHOOLS.Q . I  WANT TO CONTINUE FOR EACH ONE OF THESE S T A T IS T IC S ,



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BUT LET ME TAKE THEM OUT OF ORDER F IR S T . LET ME DROP DOWN TO NUMBER FOUR, ACHIEVEMENT TEST SCO R ES. AGAIN WE HAVE L IST E D  HERE ACHIEVEMENT TEST SCORES FOR RICHMOND, CH EST ER FIE LD , HENRICO AND THE STATE WIDE AVERAGE.DO YOU, DR. JO N E S , BE LIE V E  BLACK CHILDREN GIVEN SU F F IC IE N T  RESOURCES MAY BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE AT A LEVEL COMPARABLE TO THAT OF WHITE CHILDREN SUCH AS THOSE IN HENRICO COUNTY AND CH ESTER FIELD ?A . I  B E LIE V E  THAT THEY CAN ACHIEVE AT A MUCH HIGHER LEVELTHAN THEY ARE NOW A C H IE V IN G . WE HAVE ID E N T IF IE D  OUR LEVEL OF EXPECTATION FOR OUR STUDENTS IN RICHMOND C IT Y  SCHOOLS.Q . WOULD YOU TRY TO APPROXIMATE WHAT YOU HAVE IN THESURROUNDING METROPOLITAN AREA SUCH AS IN  HENRICO COUNTY AND CH ESTERFIELD ?MR. LUCYK: O BJECTIO N  TO ANY APPROXIM ATION. I  DON'T B ELIEVE THERE IS  ANY FOUNDATION FOR HER KNOWLEDGE OF FACTS REGARDING CHESTERFIELD  AND HENRICO.THE COURT: W ELL, I  DON'T KNOW.WELL, NO, I  DISAGREE WITH YOU ON THAT. I  AM SURE SHE DOES KNOW. BUT I  AH NOT SO SURE ABOUT THE APPROXIM ATION. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA OP OUR OWN KNOWLEDGE?A . OF THE ACHIEVEMENT TEST SCORES?THE COURT; Y E S .A . SUCH INFORMATION IS  PU B LISH ED . IT  IS  PRESENTED IN  THEMEDIA ON AN ANNUAL B A S IS . ONE ONLY HAS TO READ THAT. I  HAVE



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ALL OF THE ACHIEVEMENT DATA FOR OVERTIME BEFORE MB, BUT THAT I S  THE KIND OF INFORMATION THAT IS  READILY AVAILABLE TO ANYONE. MR. LU CYK j SHE SHOULD HAVE THE INFORMATION, JU D G E , RATHER THAN APPROXIM ATION.THE COURTi THAT IS  THE BEST EVIDENCE. OBJECTION  SU STAIN ED .MR. W ILLIA M Si YOUR HONOR —THE COURT* LET ASK YOU T H IS . THESE ACHIEVEMENT TEST SCORES THAT WE HAVE ON 'THIS E X H IB IT , THEY ARE NOT LIM ITED  TO CHILDREN OF A PARTICULAR RACE, THAT I S  THE ENTIRE STUDENT BODY, IS N ’ T I T ?A . THAT I S  TRUE.THE COURT: ALL R IG H T .A . BUT BY THE SAME PERCENT WE HAVE JU S T  CONCLUDED THATTHE PERCENTAGES OF STUDENTS PER RACE D IFFER  DRASTICALLY AMONG THESE THREE SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S .BY MR. W ILLIAM S:Q . DR. JO N E S , IF  WE COULD TAKE NUMBER 5 ON TH IS L IS T  OFEDUCATIONAL S T A T IS T IC S . THE PERCENTAGE OF ENTERING HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS WHO GRADUATE. LOOKING AT THE DATA PROVIDED HERE IN T H IS E X H IB IT  FOR THE PERCENTAGES FOR CH EST ER FIE LD , HENRICO AND RICHMOND, DO YOU BE LIE V E  THAT THE STUDENTS IN RICHMOND GIVEN SU F F IC IE N T  HELP AND RESOURCES COULD ACHIEVE A PERCENT OF ENTERING HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS WHO GRADUATE



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COMPARABLE TO THAT OF CHESTERFIELD AND HENRICO?A . REFLECTING BACK UPON PREVIOUS TESTIMONY# WE HAVEINDICATED THAT ONE OF THE EVIDENCES OF OUR V E ST IG E S HAVE BEEN THAT OF LOW MOTIVATION AND RELUCTANCE TO REMAIN IN SCHOOL,AND A PERCEIVED IN A B IL IT Y  TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN  SCHOOL. ALL CULMINATING IN A FAILURE TO GRADUATE.WITH FOCUS UPON THOSE CONDITIONS THAT PREVENT GRADUATION, AND MAKING THOSE CO N D IT IO N S, ELIM INATING THOSE CONDITIONS AND MAKING COMPARABLE CO N D IT IO N S, I  B E LIE V E  IT  IS  P O S S IB L E .Q . WOULD THAT BE A REASONABLE GOAL FOR THE SCHOOL SYSTEMTO TRY TO ACH IEVE?A . I  FEEL IT  I S .Q . NOW, LET ME ASK THE SAME QUESTION WITH RESPECT TONUMBER TWO, CLASSROOM FAILURE R ATES. A G A IN , ON THE SAME E X H IB IT  1 5 . YOU HAVE STATED HERE FOR 1 9 8 3 -1 9 8 5  THE CLASSROOM FAILURE RATES FOR HENRICO, CH EST ER FIE LD , AND RICHMOND. YOU W ILL NOTE, DR. JO N E S , THAT THE RICHMOND RATE IS  ALMOST TWICE THAT OF HENRICO AND CH EST ER FIE LD . WOULD IT  EE A REASONABLE GOAL FOR THE RICHMOND SCHOOL SYSTEM GIVEN ADEQUATE RESOURCES OF THE TYPE INDICATED IN  YOUR PLAN TO TRY TO ACHIEVE A FAILURE RATE AS LOW AS THAT IN HENRICO AND CH ESTERFIELD ?A . Y E S .Q . THE SAME Q U ESTIO N , D R. JO N E S , WITH RESPECT TO HIGHSCHOOL GRADUATES CONTINUING EDUCATION, WHICH I S  IN NUMBER



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THREE OP THESE EDUCATIONAL S T A T IS T IC S  FOR 19 84 -1 9 8 5  WHERE WE HAVE INDICATED THAT THE PERCENTAGE OF HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATES WHO CONTINUE THEIR EDUCATION FOR HENRICO, CH EST ER FIE LD , AND RICHMOND. DO YOU B E LIE V E  THAT GIVEN SU F F IC IE N T  EDUCATIONAL RESOURCES FOR THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOLS THAT IT  WOULD BE A REASONABLE GOAL FOR YOU TO TRY TO ACHIEVE A HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATE RATE OF CONTINUING EDUCATION COMPARABLE TO THAT OF HENRICO Aim CH ESTER FIELD ?A . THAT, I  CANNOT BE AS D E F IN IT IV E  ABOUT SIM PLY BECAUSEWE DO NOT HAVE CONTROL OVER WHAT HAPPENS AFTER SECONDARY. WE CANNOT GUARANTEE, FOR EXAMPLE. WE DO DO NOT PROVIDE POST SECONDARY EXPE R IEN CES, AND THERE ARE OTHER FACTORS THAT WOULD ENTER INTO STUDENTS1 A B IL IT Y  TO CONTINUE H IS  EDUCATION, H IS OR HER OWN RESOURCES TO DO SUCH I S  A PRIMARY FACTOR OVER WHICH WE HAVE NO CONTROL. SO I  COULD NOT SAY THAT WE COULD HAVE GRADUATES CONTINUING EDUCATION. WE WOULD SEEK TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF GRADUATES WHO ARE E L IG IB L E , E L IG IB L E  MEANING THEY WOULD MEET THE ENTRANCE REQUIREMENTS FOR HIGHER EDUCATION.Q . ABSENT THOSE FACTORS, WOULD THE RATE THAT YOU SEES P E C IF IE D  IN  HERE FOR HENRICO AND CHESTERFIELD BE A REASONABLE GOAL FOR YOU TO TRY TO A CH IEVE?MR. LUCYK: O B JE C T IO N . I  THINK WE ARE SPECULATING HOW. SHE SA ID  THOSE FACTORS ARE PRETTY S IG N IF IC A N T .THE COURT: NO, O BJECTIO N  IS  OVERRULED.



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A . IF  THE FACTORS WERE MADE COMPARABLE, IN OTHER WORDS,I F  THOSE POST SECONDARY CONDITIONS WERE SOMEHOW MADE COMPARABLE, PR O V ISIO N S WERE MADE FOR YOUNGSTERS REGARDLESS OF THEIR OWN PERSONAL RESOURCES, WERE ABLE TO CONTINUE THEIR EDUCATION BASED ON THEIR LEVEL OF PREPARATION FOR I T ,  THEN I  THINK IT  WOULD BE COMPARABLE. BUT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THOSE C O N D IT IO N S. WE WOULD HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE PERCEPTIONS AGAIN OF YOUNGSTERS IN  TERMS OF THEIR —  OF THEMSELVES AS A LEARNER AND WHETHER OR NOT CONTINUING EDUCATION HAS IN IT  THE KIND OF OPPORTUNITY FOR RESPONDING TO WHAT THEY ARE SEEKING AFTER HIGH SCHOOL. BUT WE CONTEND THAT OUR R E S P O N S IB IL IT Y  IS  PRIM ARILY THAT OF PREPARING YOUNGSTERS SO THAT THEY CAN HAVE C H O IC E S . THEY HAVE OPTIONS OF CONTINUING THEIR EDUCATION, OPTIONS OF GOING D IRECTLY INTO THE WORLD OF WORK, THE M ILITARY OR WHAT HAVE YOU. THAT I S ,  AS I  SEE I T ,  THE PU B LIC SCH O O L'S R E S P O N S IB IL IT Y .Q . THANK YOU.NOW, DR. JO N E S , IF  I  COULD TURN YOUR ATTENTION TO YOUR E X H IB IT  1 2 , WHICH I S  THE RICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD'S COMPREHENSIVE R E L IE F  PLAN. WAS ONE OF YOUR —THE COURT: WHILE IT  I S  ON MY M IND, D ID  YOU HAVE A LAWYER HELP YOU DO T H IS , MA'AM?A . TH IS HAS BEEN REVIEWED BY OUR LEGAL S T A F F , Y E S .THE COURT: W ELL, WHO PUT TOE CASES IN THERE?A . WELL, SEVERAL OF US D ID .



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AS YOU ATTEMPT TO RESEARCH THE LITER ATU R E, YOU RESEARCH EVERYTHING, INCLUDING C A S E S . BUT IN TERMS OF CONFIRMING T H IS , AS I  SA ID  ON YESTERDAY, WE TALKED WITH OUR EDUCATIONAL EXPERTS FROM VANDERBILT U N IVER SITY AND WE DID CONFER WITH OUR OWN LEGAL ST A FF.THE COURT: ALL R IG H T .BY MR. W ILLIA M S:Q . DR. JO N E S , WAS ONE OF YOUR PURPOSES IN IN ST ITU TIN GT H IS PLAN TO ULTIMATELY BRING ABOUT GREATER DESEGREGATION IN THE RICHMOND SCHOOL SYSTEM?A . THAT WAS A PART OF OUR EFFORT, Y E S . THAT IS  ACONTINUING EFFORT ON THE PART OF THE RICHMOND P U B LIC  SCH O OLS.THE COURT: WHEN YOU SAY INCREASED DESEGREGATION, YOU MEAN ATTRACT WHITE STUDENTS?A . WE WOULD ALWAYS WANT A SCHOOL SYSTEM THAT WOULDATTRACT ALL STUDENTS, AND SIN C E  IT  DOES NOT SEEM TO HAVE THE SAME LEVEL OF ATTRACTION FOR WHITE STUDENTS, CERTAINLY ANYTHING IN T H IS PLAN WE WOULD HOPE WOULD ADD TO THAT ATTRACTION AS WELL AS THE UPPER INCOME BLACK STUDENTS THAT WE ARE ALSO SUFFERING A LO SS O F.

Q ,  DR. JO N E S , DID  YOU HAVE ANY REASON TO BE LIE V E  THATTHERE WERE SOME ELEMENTS THAT YOU HAD INCLUDED IN TH IS PLAN WHICH MIGHT ATTRACT STUDENTS TO THE RICHMOND SCHOOL SYSTEM IR R E SP E C T IV E  OF RACE AND THEREFORE WOULD PERHAPS INCLUDE,ATTRACT WHITE STUDENTS AS WELL?



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A . MAXIMUM OPPORTUNITIES FOR S U C C E S S , FOR EVERY STUDENTI S  THE GREATEST ATTRACTION TO ANY STUDENT BLACK OR W HITE. SO YOU CA N 'T  RULE OUT THE FACT THAT AS YOU IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF YOUR SCHOOL SYSTEM YOU ARE GOING TO IMPROVE YOUR OPPORTUNITIES TO ATTRACT STUDENTS OF ANY RACE.Q . NOW, D R. JO N E S , HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN AN EDUCATOR INTHE RICHMOND P U B LIC SCHOOL SYSTEM?A . 31 Y E A R S.Q . NOW, ON THE B A S IS  OF YOUR EXPERIENCES AS AN EDUCATORDO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT PARTICULAR PROGRAMS OR PARTICULAR FEATURES OF AN EDUCATIONAL PROGRAM MIGHT BE ATTRACTIVE TO STUDENTS?A . Y E S , I  HAVE AN O P IN IO N .
Q.  IS  IT  YOUR O PINION BASED UPON THE COMPONENTS OF YOURCOMPREHENSIVE R E L IE F  PLAN THAT YOU HAVE INCLUDED HERE AS E X H IB IT  1 2 , THAT THE SU CCESSFU L IMPLEMENTATION OF T H IS PLAN MIGHT ATTRACT STUDENTS TO THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOL SYSTEM IR R E SPE CT IV E  OF RACE OR COLOR?MR. LUCYK: O B JE C T IO N , JU D G E . T H IS CAME UP YESTERDAY. I  DO NOT B E LIE V E  SHE HAS THE CREDENTIALS TO DETERMINE DEMOGRAPHIC MOVEMENTS OF STUDENTS AND WHETHER A PARTICULAR RACE OF STUDENTS ARE GOING TO BE ATTRACTED TO PARTICULAR SCHOOLS. THERE ARE A LOT OF V A R IA B L E S.THE COURT: I  THINK THE O BJECTION  I S  WELL TAKEN. PUTIT  I N . IS  IT  YOUR HOPE



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Q . I S  XT YOUR HOPE, DR. JO N E S , GIVEN THE COMPONENTS OFYOUR PLAN, THAT THE PLAN MIGHT BE ATTRACTIVE TO STUDENTS WITHIN THE C IT Y  OF RICHMOND WHO ARE NOT PRESENTLY ATTENDING THE SCHOOL SYSTEM AS WELL, PERHAPS, AS BEING ATTRACTIVE TO STUDENTS WITHOUT THE C IT Y  OF RICHMOND WHO WOULD B E , WHO MIGHT BE CAPABLE OF ATTENDING THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOL SYSTEM?A . Y E S .g .  THANK YOU, DR. JO N E S .NOW, D R. JO N E S , I  WOULD L IK E  TO HAVE YOU LOOK AT SOME E X H IB IT S PRESENTED BY THE DEFENDANTS. PLEASE BEAR WITH ME A MOMENT. E X H IB IT  6 6 , WHICH I S  IN VOLUME 1 OF DEFENDANT'S E X H IB IT  BOOK.THE COURT: MINE STARTS WITH 6 8 , MR. W ILLIA M S.MR. W ILLIA M S: WE W ILL START WITH 6 8 . WOULD YOU START WITH 6 8 , DR. JO N E S?THE COURT: E X H IB IT  6 8 ?0 .  Y E S .THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.A . T H IS PARTICULAR VOLUME DOES NOT HAVE 6 8 . IT  ENDS WITH6 7 . THE COURT: WHICH ONE DO YOU WANT?MR. W ILLIA M S: I  DON'T THINK IT  MATTERS, YOUR HONOR.Q . LOOKING AT E X H IB IT  6 8 , T H IS IS  ENTITLED BIEN N IALSCHOOL PLAN FOR 1 9 8 3 -8 4  AND 1 984-85 FOR THE THOMAS H. HENDERSON MIDDLE SCHOOL D IS T R IC T .



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ON PAGE 2 OF THE PLAN IT  L IS T S  A NUMBER OF O B JE C T IV E S . IN THE FOLLOWING PAGES, AS YOU GO THROUGH THE PAGES OF T H IS E X H IB IT , YOU W ILL SEE A NUMBER OF PROGRAMS, SUCH AS COMMUNITY OF A R T S, S C IE N C E , MATHEMATICS, AND IT  L IS T S  WHETHER OR NOT THE O B JE C T IV E  HAS BEEN OBTAINED FOR THAT PERIOD OF T IM E . ARE YOU FAM ILIAR WITH T H IS ?A . B IEN N IA L SCHOOL PLAN IS  A PLAN DEVELOPED AND DESIGNEDBY EACH SCHOOL IN D IV ID U A L L Y .Q . D R. JO N E S , WHEN IT  IS  STATED HERE THAT SOME OF THESEOBJECT'IVES HAVE BEEN ATTAINED, I S  THERE ANYTHING INCONSISTENT BETWEEN THE ATTAINMENT OF THESE O B JE C T IV E S AND THE STATEMENT IN  YOUR REMEDIAL PLAN THAT YOU NEED MORE RESOURCES IN ORDER TO CURE THE V E ST IG E S OF PAST D ISC R IM IN A T IO N ?A . O B JE C T IV E S ARE INCREMENTAL AND THEY ARE DESIGNED INORDER TO ACCOMPLISH A LONG RANGE O B JE C T IV E S , AND YOU SET THOSE O B JE C T IV E S IN  LIGH T OF THE AMOUNT OF TIME AND RESOURCES THAT YOU HAVE FOR THAT PARTICULAR PER IO D . SO YOU W ILL FIND THAT MANY OF THOSE O B JE C T IV E S D IFFE R  SLIG H TLY FROM WHAT MIGHT BE A F IV E  YEAR OR A S I X  YEAR O B JE C T IV E  SIM PLY BECAUSE THE RECOGNITION I S  THERE THAT YOU CANNOT —  THAT YOU MUST PROVIDE THE APPROPRIATE TIME AND ATTENTION TO HAKE THE D IFFEREN CE.SO THE FACT THEY ARE INCREMENTAL SUGGESTS THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE R AISED  AND BECOME EVEN MORE A M B IT IO U S, I F  YOU W IL L , AT THE NEXT OPPORTUNITY TO UP DATE THOSE O B JE C T IV E S .Q . SO IN YOUR MIND I S  THAT CONSISTENT WITH YOUR REQUEST



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FOR GREATER ASSISTA N CE FROM THE STATE OF V IR G IN IA  AS INDICATED IN YOUR REMEDIAL PLAN?A . IT  VERY D E FIN IT E LY  I S .Q . WOULD THAT BE TRUE WITHOUT GOING THROUGH ALL OF THESEANNUAL PLANS PROVIDED FOR EACH SCHOOL? WOULD THAT BE TRUE OF EACH AND EVERY ONE?A . IN  TERMS OF THEIR BEING SET IN INCREMENTAL FASHION ANDIN  TERMS OF THEIR HAVING MET SOME AND NOT HAVING MET OTHERS, Y E S .Q . SO IN SUBMITTING THESE B IEN N IA L SCHOOL PLANS YOU DONOT MEAN TO STATE WHEN YOU STATE THAT AN O B JE C T IV E  HAS BEEN ATTAINED THAT YOU HAVE ELIMINATED THE V E ST IG E S OF PAST D ISC R IM IN A T IO N ?A . CERTAINLY NOT. MANY OF THESE W ILL HAVE TO BE ANNUAL,ON-GOING O B JE C T IV E S . THEY ARE WHAT YOU SEEK TO DO EACH YEAR. Q . NOW, LET ME MOVE FROM THAT E X H IB IT , D R. JO N E S , TODEFENDANT'S E X H IB IT  6 0 . THAT WOULD BE IN VOLUME 1 .Q . NOW, DEFENDANT'S E X H IB IT  NUMBER 60 I S  ENTITLEDOPTIONAL PROGRAMS AND SE R V IC E S PROVIDED BY THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOL SYSTEM . IN THE TABLE OF CONTENTS IN TH IS E X H IB IT  YOU IN D ICATE QUITE A NUMBER OF SE R V IC E S PROVIDED BY THE RICHMOND PU B LIC  SCHOOL SYSTEM , SUCH AS SOMETHING CALLED PEP U P, EARLY CHILDHOOD EDUCATION, ELEMENTARY GUIDANCE,SCHOOL NURSES, D IAGN O STIC AND P R E SC R IP T IV E  CENTER. I S  THERE ANYTHING INDICATED IN T H IS PLAN THAT IN D ICA TES THAT YOU DO



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NOT HAVE THE NEED FOR ADDITIONAL RESOURCES AS INDICATED IN  YOUR E X H IB IT  NUMBER 1 2 , REQUESTING COMPREHENSIVE R E L IE F  FROM THE COURT?A . ON THE CONTRARY, THEY REPRESENT CONCERTED EFFORTS ONTHE PART OF THE D IV IS IO N  TO ATTEMPT TO PROVIDE PROGRAMS AND SE R V IC E S THAT RELATE S P E C IF IC A L L Y  TO THE V E ST IG E S OF SEGREGATION. OPTIONAL MAY BE MISLEADING WITHOUT THE INTERPRETATION THAT WE INTEND IT  TO HAVE. IT  SIM PLY MEANS THAT THESE ARE NOT PROGRAMS OF SE R V IC E S THAT ARE PARTICULARLY S P E C IF IE D  IN  TERMS OF EITHER THEIR DELIVERY SYSTEM OR IN TERMS OF THEIR REQUIREMENT BY EITHER THE STANDARDS OF QUALITY REQUIREMENTS OR BY ANY OTHER STATE REGULATION. THESE ARE D IV IS IO N S  AND IN IT IA T E D , EITHER ORGANIZATIONAL D ESIGN S OR PROGRAMS OR SE R V IC E S AGAIN UNIQUELY TAILO R MADE TO THE NEEDS OF OUR POPULATION.Q . D R. JO N E S , I F  YOU COULD TURN TO THE NEXT E X H IB IT ,DEFENDANT'S E X H IB IT  6 1 . THAT I S  A DOCUMENT PRESENTED BY THE RICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD THAT I S  ENTITLED F IV E  YEAR PLAN FOR UNPARALLELED ACHIEVEMENT.D R. JO N E S , YOU SAY UNPARALLELED ACHIEVEMENT. I S  THAT SOME TYPE OF SE L F  PROMOTION OR PU B LIC RELATIONS OF A GOAL THAT YOU ARE STATIN G?A . AS YOU W ILL NOTE, THE SUPERINTENDENT WAS DR. RICHARDC . HUNTER, BUT NEVERTHELESS AS STATED ON TH IS DOCUMENT, AS I  UNDERSTOOD THE INTENT OF THAT WORD, UNPARALLELED, IT  WAS TO



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SUGGEST THAT WE WERE SIM PLY SEEKING ACHIEVEMENT AT A LEVEL NEVER PREVIOUSLY ACH IEVED .Q . WOULD THAT BE —  ST R IK E  THAT.DOCTOR, LOOK AT PAGE 3 OF T H IS E X H IB IT . YOU W ILL SEE IN  THE LAST PARAGRAPH A STATEMENT THAT SAYS THESE ARE EXTREMELY AM BITIOUS G O A LS. NO LARGE SCHOOL D IV IS IO N  IN THE COMMONWEALTH MET T H IS ACHIEVEMENT LEVEL FOR ELEMENTARY STUDENTS IN 1 9 8 2 -1 9 8 3 . WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?A . THAT I S  JU S T  THAT. THAT WE RECOGNIZE THAT TO MOVEFROM THE POINT WHERE THE SYSTEM WAS AT THAT TIME TO WHAT IS  STATED PR EV IO U SLY, THE 75 PERCENTILE FOR ELEMENTARY STUDENTS AND 50TH FOR SECONDARY, THAT THESE WERE EXTREMELY A M B IT IO U S, CANNOTING THE NEED TO HAVE A VERY AM BITIOUS EFFORT TO ACCOMPLISH THEM. AND AT THAT TIME WE, THE RECOGNITION WAS THERE THAT SIN C E  MANY OF THE LARGE SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S  ARE WORKING TOWARD THE SAME AM BITIOUS GO A LS, THAT WE JU S T  ACKNOWLEDGE THEY HAD NOT ACHIEVED THEM AND WE WERE SIM PLY SAYING TO OUR STAFF AND TO THE COMMUNITY THAT THERE WAS THE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT IT  WOULDN'T BE AN EASY T A SK . THAT IT  WOULD BE A V E R Y , VERY D IF F IC U L T  EFFORT ON EVERYBODY'S PART TO ACCOMPLISH THESE G O A LS, BUT THAT WE FELT THAT THEY WERE P O S S IB L E .Q . DOES THAT MEAN THAT SMALLER SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S  HAY HAVEACHIEVED THAT GOAL?A . NO, I  AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT AT A L L . JU S T  THAT WE ARE



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PERCEIVED GENERALLY AS A LARGE SCHOOL D IV IS IO N , AND THE COMMENT WAS HADE ABOUT THE LARGE SCHOOL D IV IS IO N . JU S T  THAT WHEN YOU HAVE MORE PEOPLE IT  I S  GOING TO TAKE A GREATER EFFORT TO ACCOMPLISH I T .  YOU ARE GOING TO NEED MORE RESOURCES TO ACCOMPLISH I T .  SO TO THAT EXTENT LARGE, ID E N T IFYIN G  OUR D IV IS IO N  AND OTHERS AS LARGE SEEMS S IG N IF IC A N T .Q . DR. JO N E S , ON THE VERY NEXT PAGE, PAGE 4 ,  YOU HAVE ACOMPARISON OF TEST RESULTS IN  READING AND MATHEMATICS AMONG A NUMBER OF SCHOOL D IS T R IC T S . THEY ARE ALEXANDRIA AND ARLINGTON, CH E ST E R FIE LD , FAIR FAX AND HENRICO, NORFOLK, RICHMOND, AND V IR G IN IA  BEACH. DO YOU KNOW OF THE SCHOOL D IV IS IO N  WHICH I  JU S T  ID E N T IF IE D , HOW MANY OF THOSE SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S  HAVE A BLACK POPULATION OF AT LEAST 50 PERCENT?MR. LUCYK: O B JE C T IO N , JU D G E . I  DON'T KNOW WHETHER THERE IS  ANY B A S IS  FOR HER KNOWLEDGE OF T H IS .THE COURT: NO, O BJECTION  IS  OVERRULED. THE QUESTION I S ,  DOES SHE KNOW.A . Y E S , I  DO KNOW THERE ARE SOME OF THEM WITH BLACKPOPULATION OVER 50 PERCENT.Q . WHICH ONES HAVE A BLACK POPULATION OVER 50 PERCENT?A . I  WOULD KNOW THAT ALEXANDRIA IS  ONE, RICHMOND ISL IS T E D  THERE. WITHOUT LOOKING AT MY DATA I  WOULD NOT BE SURE OF THE EXTENT TO WHICH NORFOLK HAS APPROACHED OR EXCEEDED I T .0 RICHMOND, NORFOLK AND ALEXANDRIA, WOULD THEY BE IN THE



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BOTTOM OF THE THREE?A . PARDON?Q . IF  YOU WERE TO RANK THESE SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S  IN TERMS OFHOW HIGH THE STUDENTS ARE ACH IEVING ON THESE PARTICULAR TEST SCO R E S,  WOULD NORFOLK, RICHMOND AND ALEXANDRIA BE AT THE BOTTOM LOOKING AT THESE SCO RES?A . A CASUAL GLANCE AT THEM, IT  DOES SUGGEST THAT THAT ISTHE C A S E , Y E S .Q . NOW, D ESPIT E  THE FACT THAT RICHMOND HAS A HIGHERPROPORTION OF BLACK STUDENTS IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM , I S  IT  YOUR B E L IE F  THAT WITH THE RESOURCES YOU ARE REQUESTING IN TH IS PLAN THAT THOSE STUDENTS CAN BE MADE TO ACHIEVE AT A LEVEL AS MEASURED BY TEST RESULTS SUCH AS INDICATED HERE IN READING, AND MATHEMATICS AT A LEVEL COMPARABLE TO THAT OF ARLINGTON, CH EST ER FIE LD , F A IR F A X , HENRICO, AND V IR G IN IA  BEACH?A . WE HAVE BEEN ATTEMPTING TO MAKE THROUGHOUT TH IS CROSSCLAIM THE POINT THAT THE HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF BLACK STUDENTS OR THE HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF STUDENTS WHO ARE V IC T IM S OF PRIOR DUAL SCHOOL SYSTEM R ESID IN G  IN RICHMOND AND BEING SERVED BY THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOLS I S  A FACTOR THAT IS  M ITIGATING AGAINST OUR EFFORTS TO MAKE A S IG N IF IC A N T  DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT. THAT IS  THE POINT WE ARE ATTEMPTING TO MAKE, Y E S . BUT NOT THAT IT  I S  IM P O S S IB L E . IT  IS  P O SSIB LE  TO MAKE THE CHANGE WITH ADDED EFFORT, AND WE ARE SAYING THE ADDED RESOURCES TO MAKE THAT EFFORT. THE FACT THAT WE DO



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HAVE A LARGER NUMBER OF SUCH YOUNGSTERS IS  A VERY S IG N IF IC A N T  FACTOR IN OUR O P IN IO N , WHEN YOU START MAKING THESE KINDS OF —  I F  NOT COM PARISONS, AT LEAST WHEN YOU START OBSERVING T H IS DATA AS IT  I S  L IS T E D  HERE.Q . NOW, DR. JO N E S , WOULD IT  BE P O SSIB LE  FOR THE RICHMONDSCHOOL SYSTEM TO ACHIEVE T H IS LEVEL OF ATTAINMENT COMPARABLE TO THOSE OF THE F IV E  SCHOOL D IS T R IC T S  WHICH I  ID E N T IF IE D  WITHOUT THE R E L IE F  BEING GRANTED, STATED IN  YOUR REMEDIAL PLAN?A . MR. W ILLIA M S, MORE WITH LE SS HAS NOT PROVEN TO BE AREALITY FOR ME. AND YOU ARE ASKING IF  WE COULD DO IT  WITH L E S S , WE CAN CONTINUE TO . WE HAVE HADE SOME IMPROVEMENT, WE HAVE MADE IT  OVER T IM E , AND WE W ILL MAKE At? EFFORT TO CONTINUE TO MAKE SOME IMPROVEMENT. WE HAVE STATED THAT WE ARE ATTEMPTING TO MAKE DRAMATIC AND S IG N IF IC A N T  IMPROVEMENT.IN MY OPINION THAT IS  THE —  THE LATTER IS  NOT’ P O S S IB L E .Q . DR. JO N E S , LET ME TAKE YOU TO DEFENDANT'S E X H IB ITNUMBER 6 2 . T H IS IS  CALLED THE RICHMOND PU B LIC  SCHOOL BOARD'S GOALS FOR 1 9 8 4 -8 5 . IS  THERE ANYTHING STATED THERE THAT IS  INCONSISTENT WITH THE R E L IE F  THAT YOU ARE REQUESTING IN YOUR PLAN, E X H IB IT  1 2?A . I  DON'T PER CEIVE OF ANY IN C O N SIST E N CIE S OR C O N F L IC T S.Q . ARE THE TYPE OF PROGRAMS AND GOALS S IM IL A R ?A . THERE IS  NO EXACT HATCH OF THE TWO. CERTAINLY WHENONE WRITES A PLAN OR SET OF O B JE C T IV E S OR MAKES ANY D ESIGN  TO



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IMPACT UPON THE SCHOOL SYSTEM , ONE DOES THAT WITH AN AWARENESS OF WHAT THE SCHOOL BOARD'S GOALS A R E. AND WHILE YOU MAY NOT ADDRESS EACH ONE OF THOSE GOALS IN SUCH A DOCUMENT, YOU WOULD NOT HAVE —  YOU WOULD NOT PROPOSE D IR ECTIO N S AND EMPHASIZE THAT ARE CONTRARY TO WHAT WOULD BE IN  SUCH G O A LS.Q . NOW, D R. JO N E S , LET ME TAKE YOU TO DEFENDANT'S E X H IB IT6 5 . T H IS IS  ENTITLED THE COMMONWEALTH OF V IR G IN IA  DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION SURVEY OF 9TH GRADE STUDENTS 1 9 7 7 . ARE YOU FAM ILIAR WITH THAT SURVEY?A . NOT INTIMATELY F A M IL IA R . I  AM AWARE SUCH A SURVEYTOOK P LA C E , BUT IN TERMS OF F A M ILIA R IT Y  WITH IT S  R ESU LT S, ET CETERA, I  HAVE NOT ANALYZED THAT AND I  COULD NOT RESPOND TO FIN D IN G S SUCH AS I  WOULD WITH A DOCUMENT THAT I  OR MY STAFF HAD BEEN INVOLVED I N , EITHER THE COLLECTION OF THE DATA OR EITHER THE A N ALYSIS AND SUMMARY OF THE DATA.Q . DO YOU KNOW IP  THE COMMONWEALTH OF V IR G IN IA  SU PPLIEDYOU PRIOR TO T H IS CASE WITH A COPY OF THE RESULTS OF T H IS SURVEY?A . I  AM TRYING TO FIND A DATE ON TH IS SURVEY.IT  SAYS SURVEY OF 9TH GRADE STUDENTS 1977 —MR. LUCYKx I  THINK HE ASKED I F  HE RECEIVED A CO PY,BUT WHETHER THEY SU PPLIED  IT  IS  ANOTHER Q U ESTIO N .THE COURT: SU P P L IE D ? A MATTER OF SEMANTICS THEN. IN AMY EVENT, I F  SHE RECEIVED IT  SOMEBODY MUST HAVE SU PPLIED  I T .



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SO GO AHEAD.Q . THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.A . I  W ILL NOT SAY THAT IT  D ID  NOT COME TO THESUPERINTENDENT'S O F F IC E . I  AM NOT —  I  HAVE NOT FA M ILIA R IZED  MYSELF WITH THE CONTENT OF T H IS PARTICULAR SURVEY, NO.Q . THANK YOU, D R. JO N E S .NOW, DR. JO N E S , I  WOULD L IK E  TO LOOK AT DEFENDANT'S E X H IB IT  8 4 .A . THERE I S  NO 84 E X H IB IT  IN TH IS PARTICULAR VOLUME. 83AND 8 5 . I  AM SO RRY, IT  IS  HERE. IT  WAS HIDDEN.Q . THANK YOU. NOW, DR. JO N E S , T H IS S T A T IS T IC , I  MEANT H IS E X H IB IT  IS  ENTITLED ADM IN ISTRATIVE STAFFIN G COM PARITIVE S T A T IS T IC A L  DATA FOR 19 83 -1 9 8 4  SCHOOL YEAR. AND IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DOCUMENT IT  SEEMS TO IN D ICATE THAT RICHMOND HAS A HIGHER RATIO OF TEACHERS TO INSTRUCTIONAL SUPPORT STAFF THAN DOES CH EST ER FIE LD , HENRICO, NORFOLK, AND THE STATE OF V IR G IN IA . DO YOU SEE THAT?A . I  SEE THAT.Q . SIM ILA R LY AT THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE E X H IB IT  ITIN D ICATES THAT RICHMOND HAS A HIGHER RATIO OF TEACHERS TO ADM INISTRATIVE AND SE R V ICE  SUPPORT STAFF THAN DOES ANY OF THOSE JU R IS D IC T IO N S  WHICH I  HAVE JU S T  MENTIONED. DO YOU HAVE AN EXPLANATION FOR THAT?A . I  PREFER THAT THE IN D IV ID U A LS WHO COLLECTED T H IS AND



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REPORTED IT  WOULD EXPLAIN THAT.Q . DO YOU KNOW IP  RICHMOND HAS A HIGHER PERCENT OF BLACKSTUDENTS THAN CHESTERFIELD COUNTY?A . IT  D OES.Q . DOES IT  HAVE A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF BLACK STUDENTSTHAN HENRICO COUNTY?A . IT  D OES.Q . DOES IT  HAVE A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF BLACK STUDENTSTHAN NORFOLK?A . Y E S .Q . NOW, D R. JO N E S , I  WOULD L IK E  TO HAVE YOU TURN TODEFENDANT’ S E X H IB IT  8 8 . I  AM SO RRY, 8 9 . NOW, DEFENDANT’ S E X H IB IT  89 IS  ENTITLED 1983 TO '8 4  EDUCATION S T A T IS T IC S  OF SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S  50 PERCENT BLACK OR MORE. IT  HAS THE PERCENT BLACK OF EACH ONE OF THESE SCHOOL D IS T R IC T S  AND THE DROP OUT RATE AND THE GRADUATE AS A PERCENT OF 9TH GRADE MEMBERSHIP AND THE PER P U P IL  EXPENDITURES. NOW, DO YOU SEE HENRICO COUNTY OR CHESTERFIELD MENTIONED OR L IS T E D  HERE AS PART OF THESE SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S ?A . ON PAGE 103 OF T H IS PARTICULAR E X H IB IT  I  DON'T SEEEITHER* I F  THEY ARE IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER, I  DON’ T SEE AN H. AFTER GR E EN EV ILLE.Q . THAT IS  NOT L IS T E D ?A . CH EST ER FIE LD , IT  IS  NOT AFTER CHARLOTTE. SO NO, IDON'T SEE IT  ON THAT PAGE.



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Q . NOW, DR. JO N E S , IN DETERMINING WKAT GOAL YOU WOULDL IK E  TO ACHIEVE IN TERMS OF PERCENT DROP OUT OR PERCENT OF GRADUATES, THE GRADUATE AS A PERCENT OF 9TH GRADE MEMBERSHIP WOULD YOU BE LOOKING PRIM ARILY TO SCHOOL D IS T R IC T S  THAT HAVE 50 PERCENT BLACK OR MORE?A . YOU ARE PERHAPS CONTINUING TO LOOK FOR AN OUTSIDED IV IS IO N  UPON WHICH WE ARE TO HAKE A COMPARISON OR TO B A SE , TO G IV E  THE B A S IS  FOR OUR O B JE C T IV E . AND I  HAVE REPEATED THAT OUR O B JE C T IV E  IS  TO MAKE A S IG N IF IC A N T  IMPROVEMENT OVER WHAT WE ARE EXPERIENCING N(*7, NOT WITHOUT AN AWARENESS OF WHAT IS  ELSEWHERE, BUT NOT N ECESSARILY FOR THE E X P L IC IT  PURPOSE OF COMPARING.Q . BUT WOULD YOU ALWAYS BE COMPARING YOURSELF ONLY TOD IS T R IC T S  THAT ARE PRIM ARILY BLACK?A . NO. THE POINT I  AM MAKING IS  THAT WE ARE REALLY NOTCOMPARING OURSELVES TO ANYBODY.Q . BUT YOU WOULD NOT BE COMPARING YOURSELF TO D IS T R IC T STHAT ARE PRIM ARILY BLACK AS INDICATED IN E X H IB IT  8 9 ?A . BUT AGAIN T H IS E X H IB IT  IS  NOT OUR E X H IB IT . BUT THEANSWER I S ,  NO, WE WOULD NOT BE COMPARING WITH THESE OR ANY OTHER. WE WOULD BE COMPARING OURSELVES WITH OUR OWN BASE DATA AND OUR OWN PR O JECTIO N S OR GOALS FOR OUR UNPARALELLED ACHIEVEMENT.Q . NOW, WITH RESPECT TO THE DEFENDANT’ S E X H IB IT  NUMBER9 0 , WHICH I S  THE NEXT E X H IB IT , HERE WE HAVE THE SCHOOL



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D IV IS IO N  WITH PERCENTAGE DROP OUT OVER 7 PERCENT FOR 1 9 8 3 -1 9 8 4 . AND RICHMOND I S  ON THE L I S T . DO YOU SEE L IST E D  THERE HENRICO COUNTY, OR CH EST ER FIE LD , OR I  AH SORRY, DID I  SAY CH EST ER FIE LD , F A IR F A X , OR ARLINGTON?A . NO, I  DON’ T .Q . WOULD YOU TURN TO DEFENDANT’ S E X H IB IT  NUMBER 9 1 , WHICHL IS T S  THE SCHOOL D IV IS IO N  WHOSE GRADUATES AS A PERCENT OF 9TH GRADE MEMBERSHIP I S  LE SS THAN 60 PERCENT BLACK , DO YOU SEE ANY OF THE SCHOOL D IS T R IC T S  WHICH I  JU S T  ID E N T IF IE D  L IS T E D  IN THAT E X H IB IT ?A . NO.Q . I F  YOU WOULD TURN TO DEFENDANT'S E X H IB IT  9 3 .T H IS E X H IB IT  IS  ENTITLED INCIDENCE OF LOW INCOME CHILDREN BY SCHOOL D IS T R IC T . IT  ID E N T IF IE S  RICHMOND,HENRICO, CH EST ER FIE LD , ARLINGTON AND ALEXANDRIA AND F A IR F A X . CAN YOU TELL ME BY LOOKING AT THAT E X H IB IT  IF  THE C IT Y  OF RICHMOND HAS A SUBSTANTIALLY HIGHER INCIDENCE OF LOW INCOME CHILDREN THAN HENRICO, CH EST ER FIE LD , ARLINGTON, ALEXANDRIA OR FA IR FA X ?A . IT  MORE THAN DOUBLED THE NEXT CITE D  D IV IS IO N .Q . NOW, I F  YOU COULD TURN TO DEFENDANT’ S E X H IB IT  9 4 .TH IS IS  AN E X H IB IT  THAT IS  ENTITLED THE RANK ORDER OF 43 SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S  IN  V IR G IN IA  WITH 35 PERCENT OR MORE LOW INCOME OR 50 PERCENT OR MORE BLACK STUDENTS ON THE B A S IS  OF FOURTH GRADE SCORES FOR TWO Y E A R S, ONE IS  1 9 7 4 -7 5  AND THE



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OTHER ONE IS  1 9 8 4 -1 9 8 5 . I F  YOU WOULD TURN TO THE F IR S T  PAGE YOU W ILL SEE A T IT L E  THAT SAYS RICHMOND C IT Y  RANKED 6TH OUT OF 43 SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S  FOR 1 9 8 4 -8 5 . NOW, LOOKING AT THE SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S  ID E N T IF IE D  THERE, DO YOU SEE HENRICO, CH EST ER FIE LD , ARLINGTON, ALEXANDRIA OR FA IR FA X ?A . GLANCING VERY HURRIEDLY THROUGH THAT, I  DON'T SEEM TOSEE THOSE SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S , NO.Q . IF  YOU WOULD TURN TO THE NEXT PAGE WHERE IT  SAYSRICHMOND C IT Y  RANKS 38TI1 OUT OF 42 SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S  IN 1 9 7 4 -7 5 , DO YOU SEE ANY OF THOSE SCHOOL D IS T R IC T S  WHICH I  HAVE JU S T  ID E N T IF IE D , HENRICO, CH EST ER FIE LD , ARLINGTON, ALEXANDRIA, FA IR FA X ?A . NO, I  DO NOT.Q . NOW, DR. JO N E S , I F  YOU LOOK AT THESE TWO E X H IB IT S FOR1 9 74 -1 9 7 5  AND 1 9 8 4 -8 5 , IT  APPEARS AS IF  IN 1974 RICHMOND RANKED 38TH OUT OF 42 SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S , THEY WERE 50 PERCENT BLACK OR 35 PERCENT OR MORE LOW INCOME, WHEREAS IN —MR. LUCYK: O B JE C T IO N , JU D G E . COUNSEL IS  T E S T IF Y IN G . H IS  ANSWER HAS MISSTATED RICHMOND RANK. IT  I S  ALL 52 ON THE '7 4 -7 5  CHART.THE COURTj THE E X H IB IT  SPEAKS FOR IT S E L F .Q . THANK YOU.MR. LUCYK: THANK YOU.BY MR. W ILLIA M S:Q . ON THE PAGE FOR 1 9 8 4 -8 5  IT  SAYS RICHMOND C IT Y  RANKS



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6TH OUT OF 43 SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S . NCW, THAT WOULD SEEM TO INDICATE THAT FROM 1974 TO 1975 SOMEHOW THE C IT Y  OF RICHMOND HAS MOVED UP IN THE RANKS COMPARED TO D IS T R IC T S  THAT ARE 50 PERCENT BLACK OR 35 PERCENT LOW INCOME. ASSUMING THAT THAT I S  S O , AND OVERLOOKING WHETHER OR NOT WE HAVE THE SAME SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S  IN EACH ONE OF THOSE SETS OF Y E A R S, WOULD THE INCREASE IN RANK OF RICHMOND FROM 1974 TO 1984 FROM A RANK OF 38TH TO A RANK OF 6TH IN D ICATE THAT YOU DO NOT NEED THE R E L IE F  THAT YOU REQUEST IN YOUR E X H IB IT  12?A . IT  WOULD NOT TO ME.Q . WHY I S  THAT, DR. JO N E S ?A . NUMBER ONE, I  WOULD HAVE TO STUDY AND ANALYZE THEIM PLICA TIO N S OF T H IS  DATA AND DRAW MY OWN CONCLUSIONS FROM I T .  SIM PLY LOOKING AT ONE OF THE FA LLA CIE S OF TAKING OUT INFORMATION AND SAYING TH IS RANK, RANKS IN WHICH D IR E C T IO N , WHAT ARE THE IM P L IC A T IO N S, WHAT HAPPENED DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIM E? THERE ARE MANY FACTORS THAT GO INTO IT  AND FA LLA CIE S OF DATA THAT WOULD SUGGEST THAT IT  WOULDN'T BY APPROPRIATE TO DRAW A HASTY OR IMMEDIATE CONCLUSIONS FROM SIM PLY A L IS T IN G  OF MATERIAL THAT YOU PLACE BEFORE YOU.Q . BUT IN SETTING YOUR GOALS YOU WERE NOT DICTATEDENTIRELY BY THE LEVEL OF PERFORMANCE OF OTHER MINORITY SCHOOL D IS T R IC T S , ARE YOU?A . NOR ARE WE SAYING WE ARE NOT ACKNOWLEDGING THERE HAVEBEEN SOME CHANGES EVEN IF  THAT CHANGE IS  IMPROVEMENT OVER



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T IM E . IT  I S  JU S T  NOT THE DEGREE NOR THE MAGNITUDE THAT WOULD IN OUR O PINION COMPLETELY RESPOND TO SOME OF THESE V E S T IG E S . Q . NOW, TWO MORE Q U E ST IO N S, DR. JO N E S . I  WOULD L IK E  YOUTO LOOK AT DEFENDANTS E X H IB IT S  2 AND 3 WHICH W ILL BE IN VOLUME ONE OF DEFENDANT’ S E X H IB IT S .LOOK AT DEFENDANT’ S E X H IB IT  2 ,  F IR S T . TH IS IS  ENTITLED RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOL STAFFING BY LOCATION 1 9 7 0 , OF EACH SCHOOL IN THE SCHOOL D IS T R IC T  IN 1 9 7 0 . AND IT  ID E N T IF IE S  THE HUMBER OF TEACHERS BY R A CE, WHITE AND NEGRO,IT  S A Y S , AND OTHER PROFESSIONAL PERSONNEL. DR. JO N E S , WHEN I  LOOK AT T H IS E X H IB IT  SCHOOL BY SCHOOL IT  APPEARS FROM THE STAFFIN G IN 1970 THAT THERE ARE SOME SCHOOLS WHICH HAVE A HIGH PERCENTAGE OF WHITE SCHOOL TEACHERS AND OTHER SCHOOLS WHICH HAVE A HIGH PERCENTAGE OF BLACK TEACHERS. DO YOU HAVE ANY REASON AS TO WHY THAT WOULD BE SO ?A . THAT WAS THE POINT IN TIME IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THESEPARATION OF SCHOOLS BY RACE. THE SCHOOLS WERE ATTENDED AND TO SOME EXTENT STAFFED BY PROFESSIONALS OF THE SAME RACE AS THE STUDENT POPULATION. IMMEDIATELY THEREAFTER, AFTER THE DESEGREGATION ORDER, THERE WAS THE ADJUSTMENT OF STAFF TO PROVIDE FOR SOME B I-R A C IA L  STAFFIN G AT THE SCHOOLS.Q . NOW, D R. JO N E S , WOULD YOU TURN TO DEFENDANT’ S E X H IB ITNUMBERED 3 . THAT IS  THE 1983 STAFFIN G BY B U IL D IN G S . AGAIN IT  ID E N T IF IE D  THE TEACHERS AND OTHER PROFESSIONAL PERSONNEL BY RACE FOR EACH SCHOOL IN THE D IS T R IC T . PLEASE CORRECT ME



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IF  I  AM WRONG, BUT WHEN I  LOOK AT THE L IS T  HERE SCHOOL BY SCHOOL, RACE BY R A CE, IT  APPEARS THAT THERE ARE RELATIVELY FEW WHITE TEACHERS IN  TOE SCHOOL SYSTEM IN THE NORMAL SCHOOLS COMPARED TO THE NUMBER OF BLACK TEACHERS.MR. LUCYKl O B JE C T IO N . THE E X H IB IT  SPEAKS FOR IT S E L F , AND T H IS WITNESS HAS JU S T  SEEN I T ,  SO I  DON’ T SEE THE QUESTION HAS ANY RELEVANCE.THE COURTi W ELL, THE WITNESS MAY DISAGREE WITH COUNSEL.A . AS HAS BEEN STATED, IT  IS  OBVIOUS THAT THAT IS  TRUE.Q . D R. JO N E S , CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY THAT IS  SO ?A . I  CAN EXPLAIN BY SIM PLY SHARING WITH YOU TOEINFORMATION I  GET D IRECTLY FROM PERSONS WHO MIGHT PREFER TO WORK IN  ONE SCHOOL OR THE OTHER. I  THINK THAT WHAT YOU FIND HERE I S  THAT HERE IS  A PHENOMENON BEING ACTED OUT CONSISTENT WITH OTHER THINGS THAT WE HAVE SA ID  IN  TH IS COURT RELATIVE TO PERCEPTIONS OF SCH O OLS. SCHOOLS THAT ARE PERCEIVED AS ALL BLACK ARE THE SCHOOLS YOU W ILL NOTE HERE THAT WOULD HAVE THE LARGEST NUMBER OF BLACK ST A F F . THESE ARE SCHOOLS TO WHICH THERE IS  A GREATER CHALLENGE TO GET NON BLACK S T A F F . IT  I S  ONE OF THE CONCERNS AND ONE OF THE PROBLEMS RELATED TO THE P A ST , TO THE FACT THAT WE HAVE NOT CHANGED S IG N IF IC A N T L Y  THE NOTIONS OF UCM OUR SCHOOLS ARE PER CEIV ED . AND T H IS JU S T , A CASUAL GLANCE AT T H IS SUGGESTS THAT THOSE SCHOOLS THAT WEREALL BLACK ARE NOW S T IL L  ATTRACTING TO A GREATER EXTENT STAFF



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THAT I S  S T IL L  BLACK.THE COURT: WHO A SSIG N S THE ST A FF? PEOPLE JU S T  WORK WHERE THEY WANT TO WORK?A . A SSIG N  STAFF ON THE B A S IS  OF THE SELECTIO N  THAT IS  ARESULT OF THE RECRUITMENT EFFORT.YOU CANNOT A SSIG N  THOSE PERSONS WHOM YOU CANNOT R E C R U IT . WE RECRUIT A LARGER NUMBER OF BLACK EMPLOYEES, AND T H IS DOES NOT MEAN RECRUITMENT EXCLUDES EFFORTS FOR OTHERS, BUT RECRUITMENT MEANS EFFORT THAT CULMINATES WITH D E C ISIO N  ON THE PART OF AN EMPLOYEE TO WORK IN  OUR SYSTEM .AND WHILE CERTAINLY NO ONE SELECTS THE PLA CE , THE PERSON CAN ELECT NOT TO ACCEPT THE OFFER OF THE PO SIT IO N  AS WELL.Q . NO FURTHER Q U E ST IO N S, D R. JO N E S . THANK YOU.THE COURT: DOES THE STATE HAVE ANY EXAMINATION?MR. FORCH: Y E S , S I R .CROS S-EXAM INATIONBY MR. FORCH:Q . GOOD MORNING.A . GOOD MORNING.Q . DR. JO N E S , TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE I S  THERE ANY CHILD IN THERICHMOND P U B LIC SCHOOLS TODAY THAT HAS BEEN ID E N T IF IE D  BY YOU AS READING BELOW GRADE LEVEL THAT IS  NOT R ECEIV IN G  SOME FORM OF REMEDIAL ATTENTION?A . THE ANSWER IS  NO. FORM IS  THE IS S U E .



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Q . I  AH NOT SURE I  UNDERSTAND THE ANSWER.A . WELL, THE ANSWER IS  NO, IN  THAT O BVIO U SLY, IF  YOU KNEWWERE D E FIC IE N T  YOU WOULD PROVIDE SOME FORM OF REM EDIATION, HOWEVER, THE NATURE OF THE RESPONSE, THE ADEQUACY OF THE RESPONSE IS  THAT WHICH I  WOULD Q U ESTIO N . I  WOULD SADLY SAY Y E S , THERE ARE SUCH YOUNGSTERS NOT HAVING THEIR D E F IC IE N C IE S  ADEQUATELY MET.Q . BECAUSE OF LEVEL OF ATTENTION, BUT NOT BECAUSE OFABSENCE OF ATTENTION?A . BECAUSE, IN SOME INSTANCES BECAUSE OF BOTH.Q . HOW MANY CHILDREN ARE THERE THAT ARE AFFECTED BY BOTHIN  RICHMOND P U B LIC SCHOOLS?A . I  WOULD NEED TO HAVE, TO CHECK SUCH DATA TO ANSWERTHAT D E F IN IT IV E L Y . I  WOULD HAVE TO HAVE IT  BEFORE ME TO SHARE WITH YOU.Q . NOW, AS I  UNDERSTAND I T ,  THERE ARE TWO PRE-SCHOOLPROGRAMS IN THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCH O OLS, EARLY CHILDHOOD AND HEAD START.A . Y E S .Q . THOSE ARE SERVING CHILDREN AT THE AGE OF FOUR?A . UPON A D M ISSIO N . SOME OF THEM ARE FOUR. THEY MUST BEFOUR BY DECEMBER 30 OF THE SCHOOL YEAR.Q . IN ADDITION TO THAT YOU HAVE A REMEDIAL INTERVENTIONPROGRAM AT GRADE THREE CALLED THE PEP-U P PROGRAM, IS  THAT NOT TRUE?



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A . THAT IS  CORRECT.Q . THE WAY I  UNDERSTAND THAT PROGRAM, YOU CORRECT ME IP  IAM WRONG, THE CH ILD  WHO I S  SCORING BELOW WHERE HE SHOULD BE ON READING I S  PLACED IN AN ADDITIONAL YEAR AT GRADE THREE AND, IN  TH IS PEP-U P READING PROGRAM?A . THE CH ILD  HAS TO SCORE S IG N IF IC A N T L Y  LOWER.Q . GIVEN A YEAR’ S WORTH OF SP E C IA L  ATTENTION IN READING?A . READING AND HATH AND FOCUS ON A C T IV IT IE S  THAT RELATETO SE LF ESTEEM.Q . OKAY. ANY PROFESSIONAL H ELP, PARA PROFESSIONAL HELPAT ALL FOR THOSE CHILDREN?A . FOR THE P E P -U P  PROGRAM, THE ANSWER I S ,  Y E S . THERE ISSOME PARTIAL PARA PROFESSIONAL A SSIST A N C E .Q . WHAT KIND OF A SSIST A N CE  IS  THAT, DR. JO N E S?A . NON INSTRUCTIONAL FOR THE MOST PART TO SIM PLY ALLOWTHE TEACHER TO BE FREE OF ANY OTHER NON INSTRUCTIONAL TASKS IN  ORDER THAT HE OR SHE CAN CONCENTRATE MORE D IRECTLY ON INSTRUCTIONAL NEEDS.Q . YOU ALSO HAVE A SIM ILA R  PROGRAM AT A G E , OR GRADE F IV ECALLED THE PRE-MED PROGRAM?A . THAT IS  CORRECT.Q . A CH ILD  THAT SCORES BELOW THE READING FOR THAT GRADEWOULD BE PLACED IN TH IS PROGRAM FOR AN ADDITIONAL YEAR?A . A G A IN , THE CH ILD  HAS TO BE TWO YEARS OR MORED E F IC IE N T , WHICH IS  SERIO U SLY —



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Q . D ID N 'T  YOU DO YOUR DOCTORAL D ISSERTATIO N  ON TH ISPARTICULAR PRE-MED PROGRAM?A . I  ANALYZED THAT PROGRAM IN DEPTH, Y E S .Q . YOU FOUND CHILDREN WERE PLACED IN  THE PROGRAM MADEP O S IT IV E  GA IN S IN BOTH MATH AND READING ACHIEVEMENT?A . THAT I S  TRUE.Q . D ID N ’ T YOU ALSO FIND THERE WAS NO CONNECTION WITHTHOSE CHILDREN AS TO THEIR SE LF ESTEEM AND THEIR ACHIEVEMENT? A . THAT WAS A CONCLUSION ON THAT PARTICULAR GROUP OFYOUNGSTERS. THAT PROGRAM WAS VERY NEW AT THAT T IM E . THE DATA HAS CHANGED, THAT IF  YOU RECALL REFLECTED A POPULATION OF SCHOOL YEAR ' 7 9 - ' 8 0 .Q . BUT YOUR STUDY AT THAT TIME ESTABLISHED —A . STATED IT  WAS F IV E , IT  I S  F IV E  YEARS OLD.Q . YOU HAVE A THIRD REMEDIAL INTERVENTION LEVEL AT THE8TU GRADE CALLED P R E -H IG H , I  B E L IE V E ?A . Y E S .Q . I S  THAT SIM ILA R LY  CONSTRUCTED THE WAY THE THIRD ANDFIPTH GRADES ARE?A . S IM IL A R L Y , BUT NOT QUITE AS SIM ILA R  AS THE PREVIOUSELEMENTARY PROGRAMS ARE TO EACH OTHER.Q . WHAT IS  THE D IFFEREN CE?A . THE B A S IC  DIFFERENCE I S  THAT AT THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVELYOU ARE INTO C L A S S E S , AND SEPARATE DEPARTMENTAL APPROACH TO TEACHING THE ELEMENTARY PROGRAMS ARE AS MOST ELEMENTARY



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SCHOOL ORGANIZATIONAL D E S IG N S , ONE TEACHER WORKS WITH THE CLA SS IN TOTAL. PRE-H IGH  I S  NOT OF THAT NATURE.Q . ON TOP OF ALL THAT I  UNDERSTAND THAT YOU HAVE AREMEDIAL READING PROGRAM CALLED EXTENDED DAY THAT RUNS FROM THE SIXTH  TO THE 12TH GRADE, I S  THAT NOT TRUE?A . THAT IS  NOT TRUE.Q . HAS THAT BEEN ABANDONED?A . WE HAVE BEEN KNOWN TO HAVE IT  WHEN WE HAD RESOURCES TOPROVIDE IT  IN SOME LO CATIO N S.Q . IN  SOME LOCATIONS?A . IN SOME LO CA TIO N S.Q . ARE THERE ANY SP E C IA L  READING S P E C IA L IS T S  THAT AREWORKING WITH THE CHILDREN IN THESE P E P -U P , PRE-MED AND PRE-H IGH  PROGRAMS?A . SOME OF THE TEACHERS HAVE TRAINING IN THOSE AREAS.CHAPTER ONE READING IS  THE ONLY SP E C IA L  READING SER VICE THAT WE HAVE.Q . WHEN WERE THESE REMEDIAL INTERVENTION PROGRAMSIN STITU TED  BY THE RICHMOND P U B LIC SCHOOLS?P E P -U P ?A . THEY HAVE BEEN INFUSED AT DIFFERENT TIMES BEGINNING ASFAR BACK AS THE MID ’ 7 0 '8  FOR THE F IR S T  ONE, WHICH WAS THE PRE-M ED, AND AT A LATER TIME THE OTHER TWO.Q . WEREN'T THESE PREVENTION PROGRAMS NECESSARY,INTERVENTION PROGRAMS IN STITUTED  AT LEAST ON THE PART DUE TO



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THE STATE STANDARDS OF QUALITY WHICH REQUIRE YOU TO HAVE REMEDIAL EDUCATION PROVIDED TO ALL CHILDREN IN NEED?A . YOU MIGHT CONCEIVE IT  AS THAT. MY PERCEPTION OF IT  ATTHAT TIME AS AN INSTRUCTIONAL LEADER WAS THAT WE WERE D ESIGN IN G THEM IN RESPONSE TO THE NEEDS OF OUR CHILDREN.Q . OKAY.STANDARDS OF QUALITY WERE NOT IN EXISTENCE PRIOR TO 1 9 7 1 , WERE THEY NOT?A . I F  YOU SAY THAT. I  WOULD HAVE TO LOOK.Q . OKAY. AFTER 1971 THE STANDARDS OF Q U A L IT Y , ARE YOUFAM ILIAR WITH THE STANDARDS OF Q U A LITY?A . Y E S , I  AM.Q . OKAY.COUNSEL, I  AM LOOKING AT D R. JONES D EPO SITIO N  AT PAGE 93 LIN E  5 .D R. JO N E S , YOU STATED THE INTERVENTION PROGRAMS ARE ID E N T IF IE D  AS OUR WAY OF RESPONDING TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT'S CORRECTIVE FOR REMEDIAL EDUCATION AS HEEDED. SO TO THAT EXTENT WE WOULD R ECEIVE SOME STATE SUPPORT. DO YOU RECALL STATING THAT?A . Y E S , I  DO.I  B E L IE V E  THAT WAS IN THE CONTEXT OF WHETHER OR NOT WE WERE DOING ANYTHING IN RESPONSE TO THE D E F IC IT  QUALITY REQUIREMENTS. CERTAINLY THAT IS  A RESPONSE, WHETHER IT  WAS DONE IN IT IA L L Y  FOR THAT PURPOSE OR NOT.



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Q . LOOK AT OUR E X H IB IT  NUMBER 60 THAT YOU HAVE ALREADYSPOKEN ON.TURN TO THE THIRD PAGE, THAT IS  ENTITLED BUDGET 1 9 8 4 -8 5 . THE L IS T IN G  OF PROGRAMS ON THE L E F T , I  THINK YOU INDICATED REMEDIAL READING HAS BEEN ABANDONED. ARE ANY OF THE OTHER PROGRAMS THAT ARE L IS T E D  HERE DISCONTINUED TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE?A . I  THINK I  S A ID  REMEDIAL READING HAD BEEN ABANDONED. ISA ID  THAT TO SOME EXTENT THE EXTENDED DAY REMEDIAL SE R V IC E S WAS NOT AVAILABLE TO ALL SCHOOLS, THAT WE HAD PROVIDED IT  TO SOME.Q . OKAY.A . AS I  STATED E A R L IE R , PERHAPS TO CALL THESE O PTIO N AL,WITHOUT EXPLANATION OF WHAT WE MEANT AS OPTIONAL, WOULD BE M ISLEA D IN G .Q . DR. JO N E S , ARE YOU FAM ILIAR WITH THE TEXT THAT ISATTACHED TO T H IS DOCUMENT?A . Y E S , I  AM.Q . ARE THE D ESCR IPTIO N S OF EACH PROGRAM ACCURATE?A . Y E S , THEY A R E.Q . NOW, FOR THE CURRENT YEAR ARE THERE ANY ADDITIONALPROGRAMS OVER AND ABOVE THESE THAT HAVE BEEN IMPLEMENTED AS AN OPTIONAL,, PROGRAM IN THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOLS?PERHAPS LET ME HELP YOU.A . DO YOU HAVE REFERENCE TO A PARTICULAR PROGRAM?



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Q . ARE ALL OF THESE PROGRAMS IN TH IS COLUMN IN ANYWAYRESPONSIVE TO CHILDREN WHO ARE SCORING BELOW WHERE THAT SHOULD BE ON READING, AND CHILDREN THAT ARE POTENTIAL DROP OUT IN THE RICHMOND P U B LIC SCHOOLS?A . NO, THEY A R E N 'T .Q . YOU DON'T B E LIE V E  THAT THE REMEDIAL P R E -H IG H ,PRE-M IDDLE AND PEP-U P PERHAPS A R EN 'T R ESPO N SIVE?A . YOU ASKED I F  I  FELT THAT ALL ON THAT L IS T  WERE, AND ISA ID  HO.Q . YOU ARE CORRECT. WHICH ONES ON TH IS L IS T  ARE NOT?A . PROGRAMS THAT RESPOND TO THE NEEDS OF ALL CHILDRENWOULD OBVIOUSLY BE OUR HEALTH EDUCATION PROGRAM, WHICH SCHOOL NURSES RESPOND T O . OUR SPACE PROGRAM, WHICH I S  A PROGRAM THAT I S  GEARED TO THE G IFTE D  AND TALENTED. OUR COMMUNITY RELATIONS EFFORT, WHICH I S  DESIGNED TO CERTAINLY INCREASE THE LEVEL OF COMMUNICATION COORDINATION BETWEEN COMMUNITY AND THE SCHOOLS.Q . AND TO IMPROVE THE PERCEPTION OF THE SCHOOLS IN THECOMMUNITY?A . WELL, I  THINK WITH INFORMATION, I  THINK WITH ANAWARENESS OF WHAT ONE I S  ATTEMPTING TO DO COMPARED WITH WHAT PERSONS PERCEPT'IONS MIGHT BE W ILL RESULT IN THAT R ESU LT, Y E S . SO THE ANSWER I S ,  NOT ALL OF THOSE, BUT CERTAINLY A S IG N IF IC A N T  NUMBER.Q . OKAY.



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HOW, I S N 'T  THE TRUE, EXCUSE ME, I S N 'T  IT  TRUE THAT YOU ALSO HAVE IMPLEMENTED IN  THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOLS FOR THE CURRENT YEAR A V ISU A L  LITER ACY PROGRAM?A . VISU A L LITERACY PROGRAM I S  PART OF A FEDERAL FUNDEDPROGRAM THAT IS  PROVIDING FUNDING. CHAPTER ONE RESOURCES.Q . I S N 'T  IT  TRUE THAT THAT PROGRAM I S  RESPONSIVE TO THEREADING NEEDS OF YOUR CHILDREN?A . TO SOME OF OUR CHILDREN WHO AGAIN MEET THAT PARTICULARC R IT E R IA , THAT C R IT E R IA  IS  S U F F IC IE N T L Y , I  WOULD S A Y , LOW TO M ISS A NUMBER OF YOUNGSTERS WHO ARE D E F IC IE N T .Q . I  THINK YOU STATED ALSO IT  I S  YOUR CHAPTER ONE MATHAND READING WHICH I S  A FEDERALLY FUNDED PROGRAM, IS  THAT NOT TRUE?A . Y E S .Q . THAT IS  NOT L IST E D  ON T H IS COLUMN E IT H E R , IS  IT ?A . NO.Q . OKAY.A . THE PROGRAMS ON HERE ARE PROGRAMS THAT ARE FUNDEDTHROUGH NON FEDERAL FUNDS.Q . ALL OF THESE PROGRAMS?A . AT A CASUAL GLANCE, I  WOULD S A Y , Y E S .Q . WHAT ABOUT THE SCHOOL PERSONNEL SE R V ICE  TEAMS THAT YOUALL HAVE?A . THAT I S  A REQUIREMENT OF SP E C IA L  EDUCATION. IT  IS  ATYPE OF WHATEVER YOU CALL I T ,  YOU SIM PLY MUST HAVE A GROUP OF



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IN D IV ID U A LS WHO MAKE SOME JUDGMENTS ABOUT YOUNGSTERS AS TO WHETHER THEY SHOULD MOVE THROUGH THE —  MOVE FURTHER INTO THE EVALUATION PROCESS TO DETERMINE IF  INDEED THEY ARE IN NEED OF SP E C IA L  EDUCATION S E R V IC E S .Q . I S N 'T  YOUR SP E C IA L  EDUCATION PROGRAM RESPONSIVE TOHELPING CHILDREN IN NEED OF ATTENTION BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU DESCRIBED AS V E S T IG E S ?A . I F  THEY ARE DIAGNOSED AS BEING SP E C IA L  EDUCATION.ONLY I F  THEY ARE DIAGNOSED.Q . WHAT ABOUT YOUR REAL SCHOOL PROGRAM?A . A G A IN , IT  IS  A PROGRAM THAT I S  DESIGNED TO RESPOND TOTHE NEEDS OF EMOTIONALLY DISTURBED YOUNGSTERS WHO ARE MILDLY EMOTIONALLY DISTURBED IN  AN EFFORT ON THE PART OF THE SYSTEM TO HAVE MANY OF THOSE YOUNGSTERS WHO SHOULD OR COULD WE HOPE RE-ENTER THE SCHOOL SYSTEM AS READILY AS P O SSIB L E  AND KEEP THEM IN THE COMMUNITY AND THEREFORE F A C IL IT A T E  THAT R E-EN TR Y. Q . DR. JO N E S , YOU HAVE Q UITE A COMPREHENSIVE L IS T IN G S  OFPROGRAMS THAT ARE CURRENTLY RESPO N SIVE TO THE CHILDREN THAT ARE SUFFERING FROM V E ST IG E S TODAY, DO YOU NOT?A . THESE PROGRAMS RESPOND TO THE NEEDS OF SOME OF THOSECHILDREN. THEY RESPOND, A L SO , TO THE NEEDS OF THE OTHER POPULATION WE SE R V E .Q . YOU ALSO HAVE AN ADULT EDUCATION PROGRAM, DO YOU NOT?A . Y E S .WE DO



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Q . HCW DOES THAT PROGRAM OPERATE?A . WELL, THERE IS  AN ADULT B A S IC  EDUCATION PROGRAM THATIS  DESIGNED FOR PERSONS WHO ARE SEEKING COMPLETION OF HIGH SCHOOL E X P E R IE N CE S. IN  ADDITION TO THAT, I S  IT  THE RICHMOND TECHNICAL CENTER THAT PROVIDES ADULT EDUCATION OPPORTUNITIES FOR NOT ONLY RESIDENTS OF RICHMOND BUT FOR THE ENTIRE METRO COMMUNITY. IT  I S  A PROGRAM THAT OPERATES AND I S  AVAILABLE TO ADULTS WHO HAVE M OTIVATION, WHO HAVE IN CEN TIVE TO HAVE THE RESOURCES IN SOME IN ST A N CES.Q . I S  IT  WELL ATTENDED?A . THE RICHMOND TECHNICAL CENTER IS  VERY WELL ATTENDED,AS I S  THE ADULT EDUCATION CENTER WHEN YOU CONSIDER POTENTIAL COMPARED TO WHO IS  SERVED THERE. CERTAINLY THERE WOULD BE A GREAT DEAL MORE PEOPLE WHO NEED THAT SE R V ICE  THAN USE I T .  WE ARE SUGGESTING MAYBE THERE ARE PERSONS WHO SUOULD, BUT WE NEED TO WORK WITH THEM TO IN S T IL L  IN THEM THE MOTIVATION AND THE IN CEN TIVE TO USE THAT AS A RESOURCE OF SELF IMPROVEMENT. Q . DR. JO N E S , DOES TH IS ADULT EDUCATION PROGRAM RESPONDIN ANYWAY TO ADULTS WHO HAVE —  WHO MAY HAVE RECEIVED A LIM ITED  EDUCATION IN THE PAST?A . THE ADULT B A SIC  EDUCATION PROGRAM WOULD, AS WOULD THETECHNICAL CENTER. BUT SOMEONE ASKED E A R L IE R , THE TECHNICAL CENTER EXTENDS TO PROVIDE A HIGHER LEVEL OF VOCATIONAL TRAINING THAN MANY PERSONS ARE READY TO BECOME A PART O F .Q . HOW LONG HAS THE ADULT EDUCATION PROGRAM BEEN



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IMPLEMENTED IN  THE RICHMOND P U B LIC SCHOOLS?A . I  CAN’ T S A Y . IT  COULD WELL HAVE BEEN PRIOR TO MYA R R IV A L.Q . SIN C E  AT LEAST 1 970?A . IN  SOME FORM, Y E S .Q . YOU ALSO HAVE A VERY GOOD VOCATIONAL PROGRAM, IUNDERSTAND, I S  THAT NOT TRUE?A . YES AND NO.Q . WHAT I S  YES AND NO ABOUT IT ?A . THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES FOR THOSE PERSONS WHO AREENROLLED. AS WE S A ID , THE TECHNICAL CENTER IS  A VERY FIN E PROGRAM. WE DON'T DENY THAT. IT  HAS BEEN AN EFFORT FOR A NUMBER OF Y E A R S, HOWEVER, FOR US TO WORK OUT SOME OF THE L O G IS T IC S  TO EVEN CONSIDER HAVING OUR YOUNGSTERS GET TO THE TECHNICAL CENTER AND MEET ALL OF THE OTHER REQUIREMENTS, FOR EXAMPLE FOR GRADUATION, THERE IS  A TIME FACTOR.THE NO I S ,  OF COU RSE, OBVIOUSLY THE A C C E S S IB IL IT Y .THE YES TO OUR VOCATIONAL EDUCATION IS  THAT WE DO HAVE SOME IN THE SCH O OLS, BUT WE HAVE —  WE RECOGNIZE THAT WE HAVE VARYING DEGREES OF PR O V ISIO N S OR F A C IL IT IE S  FOR VOCATIONAL EDUCATIONAL TECHNOLOGY, EDUCATION AS WE CALL I T ,  IN  ALL OF OUR HIGH SCHOOL B U IL D IN G S . MANY OF THEM DON'T HAVE THE F A C I L I T I E S , AND WE HAVE NOT PROCEDED TO ESTABLISH THOSE F A C IL IT IE S  IN  ALL OF OUR SCHOOLS. SO WE HAVE SOME GOOD OPPORTUNITIES FOR SOME CHILDREN IN  SOME P L A C E S, WE DON'T HAVE



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THEM IN OTHERS.Q . I S  YOUR VOCATIONAL EDUCATION PROGRAM NATIONALLYRECOGNIZED?A . WHEN YOU SAY NATIONALLY RECOGNIZED, SPEAKING OF ANATIONALLY VALIDATED PROGRAM OF SOME SO R T.Q . Y E S .A . WE MIGHT VERY WELL HAVE A COMPONENT OF I T .Q . IS  THAT PROGRAM IN ANYWAY RESPONSIVE TO THE POTENTIALDROP OUT BY PROVIDING ALTERNATIVE EDUCATIONAL FORUMS TO KEEP THEM IN  SCHOOL?A . THAT IS  THE INTENT OF ONE OF THE VOCATIONAL PROGRAMSAND EXTENSION OF OUR ADULT LEARNING CENTER, Y E S .Q . I  WOULD L IK E  TO ASK YOU A FEW QUESTIONS ABOUT THEREMEDIAL R E L IE F  PLAN THAT IS  YOUR E X H IB IT  1 2 . AS I  RECALL YOUR TESTIMONY YESTERDAY, YOU STATED TO THE COURT YOU BEGAN WORKING ON IT  IN THE SUMMER OF '8 3 .  DO YOU RECALL?A . Y E S , I  R ECA LL.Q . IT  WAS COMPLETED IN  ROUGHLY IN  NOVEMBER OF 1984?A . NOl' IN THE FORM THAT YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU, NO. IT  WASNOT COMPLETED AS EARLY AS THAT.Q . DID SOMEBODY REQUEST YOU TO DO THAT, OR DID  YOU DO ITON YOUR OWN IN IT IA T IV E ?A . YOU DO NOT WRITE A PLAN IN THE PO SIT IO N  THAT I  HELDFOR THE D IV IS IO N  WITHOUT EITHER THE DIRECTION  OR THECONCURRENCE OF YOUR IMMEDIATE SU P E R V ISO R , THE SUPERINTENDENT



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AT THAT T IM E . IT  WAS AT THE REQUEST OF THE SUPERINTENDENT, THEN DR. RICHARD HUNTER THAT I  GAVE SOME THOUGHT TO Ha? WE MIGHT SEEK TO ACHIEVE SOME OF THE —  TO ACHIEVE TO A GREATER DEGREE THE GOALS WE SET FOR OUR SYSTEM WHAT E SSEN T IA LLY WE NEED TO DO DIFFERENTLY OR MORE IN TEN SIVELY THAN WE ARE DOING NOW. SO I  SET FORTH TO LOOK AT THE POPULATION AT THE PRACTICE PROGRAMS THAT WE HAD IN PLA CE, THE DEGREE OF SU CCESS WE HAD WITH SOME AND COMPARE THAT WITH WHAT THE SU CCESS HAD BEEN IN THE LITER ATU R E, AND PROPOSE TO DRAFT IN MY O PIN IO N  ALONG WITH INPUT FROM THE VARIOUS LIN E  STAFF AND THE VARIOUS DEPARTMENTS WHAT WE SAW AT THAT TIME AS SIM PLY AN INSTRUCTIONAL PLAN.Q . TH IS CROSS CLAIM TO WHICH YOU HAVE T E S T IF IE DPREVIOUSLY F IL E D  IN MARCH OF * 8 4 , YOU BEGAN WORKING ON TH IS R E L IE F  PLAN IN THE SUMMER OF * 8 3 . DID YOU SEEK ANY STATE A SSISTA N CE IN  THE DEVELOPMENT OF I T ?A . I  DID NOT IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE PLAN AS SUCH.MANY OF THE COMPONENTS OF THE PLAN REPRESENT NEEDS THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN PART OF THE KIND OF R E L IE F  PERHAPS SOUGHT BY MY PREDECESSORS IN  VARIOUS WAYS, BUT WE D ID N 'T  ATTEMPT TO PUT INTO TH IS PLAN. WE D ID N 'T  ADDRESS IN THE PLAN THE EXTENT TO WHICH WE MAY HAVE ASKED THE STATE FOR TH IS R E L IE F .Q . D R. JO N E S , IN  ADDING UP THE STAFFING YOU ARE SEEKINGOUT OF T H IS PLAN , I  HAVE COME UP WITH A FIGURE OF 7 HUNDRED 56 TEACHERS, 438 SUPPORT ST A F F , A TOTAL BUDGET IN EXCESS OF



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48 M IL L IO N . DOES THAT SOUND CORRECT TO YOU?A . I  HAVE NOT ADDED IT  IN THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU HAVE.Q . YESTERDAY YOU STATED AT THE OUTSET OF YOUR TESTIMONYTHAT YOU B E LIE V E  THAT TH IS PLAN WOULD BE RESPONSIVE TO SOME OF THE V E ST IG E S OF SEGREGATION. DO YOU RECALL STATING THAT? A . NOT IN THOSE WORDS, BUT CERTAINLY THE INTENT WAS —  IINTENDED TO SAY JU S T  THAT. I  DON'T KNOW WHETHER, IF  I  COULD GET A TRANSCRIPT AND IT  WAS IN THOSE WORDS, BUT I  W ILL SAY Y E S .Q . WHAT V E ST IG E S ARE NOT BEING ADDRESSED IN  TH IS PLAN?A . IT  IS  IM PO SSIBLE TO EVEN KNOW ALL OF THE V E ST IG E S OFSEGREGATION. WE DEALT WITH THE MOST O B V IO U S, THE MOST IN S ID IO U S  AND THOSE THAT ARE MOST POTENTIALLY —  POTENTIAL OR NOT ONLY POTENTIAL BUT OBVIOUS DETERRENTS TO WHAT WE ARE ATTEMPTING TO DO.Q . I S  TH IS PLAN LIM ITED  ONLY TO THE BLACK CHILDREN IN THERICHMOND PU B LIC  SCHOOLS?A . RESPONDING TO THE V IC T IM S OF THE V E ST IG E S OFSEGREGATION. THERE HAS BEEN AN AWARENESS THAT SEGREGATION HAS A WAY OF IMPACTING NEGATIVELY UPON ALL PEO PLE, BLACKS TO A GREATER EXTENT, BUT CERTAINLY TO THE DETRIMENT, A L SO , OF WHITE STUDENTS AND WHITE PEOPLE WHO MUST L IV E  WITHIN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE YOU HAVE THE V E ST IG E S OF SEGREGATION S T IL L  A FACTOR.Q . I  UNDERSTAND. BUT YOUR EDUCATIONAL PROGRAM YOU ARE



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PROPOSING HERE WOULD INCLUDE NOT ONLY THE BLACK CHILDREN BUT THE WHITE CHILDREN AS WELL?A . IT  WOULD BE D IF F IC U L T  TO SEPARATE OUT CHILDREN ANDDENY THEM THE S E R V IC E , I F  YOU ARE GOING TO PLAN A PROGRAM AROUND THE NEEDS OF CH ILD REN , AND THE M AJORITY OF THE CHILDREN HAPPEN TO BE OF A PARTICULAR RACE AND D ISP LA Y S THOSE NEEDS, THEN YOU CAN DEDUCE MORE BLACK CHILDREN W ILL BE SERVED SIM PLY BECAUSE WE HAVE MORE OF THEM.Q . WOULD YOU TURN TO PAGE FOUR, PLE A SE.D R. JO N E S , YOUR PROPOSAL THAT THE R . P .  S .  ESTABLISH  READING LABORATORIES IN THE 29 ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS AT A COST EACH OF 106 THOUSAND DOLLARS WITH 80 COMPUTER TERMINALS AT A TOTAL COST OF 316 THOUSAND DOLLARS. I F  YOU LOOK AT THE LAST SENTENCE OF YOUR F IR S T  PARAGRAPH, F IR S T  FULL PARAGRAPH, IT  SAYS SUCH LABORATORY PROGRAMS AND COMPUTER MANAGED INSTRUCTIONS HAVE BEEN NOTED IN  EDUCATION LITERATURE AS POTENTIALLY E FFECT IV E  MEANS TO HELP REMEDIATE STUDENT ACADEMIC D E F IC IE N C Y . LOOK AT THE LAST SENTENCE OF THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM. I F  SU C C E SSFU L, THESE STRATEGIES COUPLED WITH A CURRENT READING CURRICULUM AND OTHER PROPOSALS IN TH IS REMEDIAL PLAN W ILL HELP R A ISE  THE ACHIEVEMENT OF STUDENTS, REDUCE THE NEED FOR IN TEN SIVE REMEDIAL PROGRAMS IN THE FUTURE. THOSE TERMS, POTENTIALLY E FFECTIVE IF  SU CC E SSFU L, SEEM TO BE PRECATORY FOR A HIGH COST ITEM SUCH AS THESE READING LABORATORIES. DID YOU G IV E  FIRM A N A LYSIS AND COME TO



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A CONCLUSION THEY W ILL HAVE A P O S IT IV E  EFFECT ON ACHIEVEMENT? A . THE HEADING LABS PROVIDE ONE OF THE MORE EFFECTIVESCHOOLS OF S T R A T E G IE S . YOU C A N 'T  GUARANTEE THAT ANYTHING IS  GOING TO BE SU CCESSFU L WITH ALL CH ILD REN . IT  HAS TO BE ONE OF YOUR MORE SU CCESSFU L METHODS, SO THAT IS  THE B A S IS  FOR PHRASING THAT AS IT  I S .  YOU WOULDN'T GO INTO IT  WITHOUT A PRETTY STRONG R E L IE F  THAT THEY CAN MAKE A D IFFER EN CE. AND READING LABORATORIES ARE NOT NEW. THEY HAVE BEEN A V A ILA B LE , AND THEY HAVE BEEN PROVEN TO BE SUCCESSFUL WITH CHILDREN WHO HAVE SEVERE READING D E F IC IE N C IE S  AND WHO HAVE READING BLOCKS. Q . WHY COULDN'T YOU STATE IT  A L IT T L E  MORE A GR ESSIVELYTHAN IN T H IS PROPOSAL AS YOU ARE STATING IT  TODAY?A . SIM PLY BECAUSE I  D ID N 'T . IT  DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOURINTERPRETATION OF IT  —  AT THAT TIME IT  WAS MY FEELING THAT IT  WAS AN AGG RESSIVE A SSE R T IV E  STATEMENT.Q . TURN TO PAGE 5 ,  P LE A SE .LAST PARAGRAPH AT THE BOTTOM, DR. JO N E S .YOU STATE THE D IV IS IO N  PROPOSES TO IN ST ITU TE A COMPREHENSIVE EVALUATION OF IT S  TESTING AND D IAGN O STIC PROGRAMS. NOW, AS I  UNDERSTAND IT  THE TESTING THAT GOES ON IN THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCH O OLS, THE MECHANISMS ARE BOTH STATE DIRECTED AS WELL AS C IT Y  IN IT IA T E D . YOU HAVE STATE TESTS AND YOU HAVE C IT Y  IN IT IA T E D  T E S T S , I S  THAT NOT TRUE?A . Y E S , STATE REQUIRED T E S T S , AND THEN WE TRY TO INFUSEC IT Y  ASSESSMENT AT POINTS AT GRADE LEVELS WHERE THE STATE



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DOES NOT REQUIRE THE T E ST IN G .Q . IN OTHER WORDS, YOU HAVE INFUSED TESTS BEYOND WHAT THESTATE HAS REQUIRED?A . AT GRADE LEVELS WHERE THE STATE DOES NOT REQUIRE THEM,Y E S .Q . WHAT GRADE LEVELS ARE THOSE, DR. JO N E S?A . ALL R IG H T . THE STATE REQUIRES THEM AT GRAD ES, POUR,EIGHT AND ELEVEN. WE HAVE SOME FORM OF A SSE SIN G  PERFORMANCE OF STUDENTS AT OTHER LOWER GRADES.Q . IT  I S  YOUR INTENTION TO EVALUATE ALL TESTING FORPOTENTIAL B IA S ?A . WE ARE GOING TO LOOK AT T E S T S , THE FORMAT, THE NATUREOF THE TESTS TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THOSE TESTS BEST A SSE SS THE NEEDS OF STUDENTS. AND THEN FROM THERE WE CAN MAKE SOME JUDGMENTS ABOUT THE KINDS OF TESTS THAT WE U SE , WHICH ONES ARE MORE E F F E C T IV E , WHICH ONES RELATE MORE D IRECTLY TO G IV IN G  US THE D IAGN O STIC INFORMATION THAT VIE NEED TO DO A BETTER JO B  IN TEACHING.Q . DID  IT  OCCUR TO YOU AT THE TIME THAT THE RICHMONDPU B LIC SCHOOLS ELECTED TO IN IT IA T E  IT S  OWN TESTS TO DO TH IS SORT OF A N A L Y S IS?A . VIE SAY WE IN IT IA T E  OUR OWN T E S T S . IT  DOESN 'T MEANRICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOLS MADE T E S T S . IN MANY INSTANCES THEY ARE THE SAME T E S T S , SIM PLY TESTS AT A DIFFERENT GRADE L E V E L . S .  R . A . ,  WE CAN U SE . S .  R . A . DOES HAVE TESTS AT THOSE



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OTHER THAN FOUR, EIGHT AND ELEVEN.Q . YOU ARE NOT REPRESENTING THAT YOU HAVE VOLUNTARILYINFUSED TESTS INTO THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOL SYSTEM THAT ARE FRAUGHT WITH POTENTIAL B I A S ?A . OF COURSE NOT. YOU USE WHAT YOU HAVE. THE T E S T S , THENORM REFERENCE TESTS ARE F A IR LY  WELL KNOWN AS BEING BIA SED  IN TERMS OF SOME POPULATIONS, AND THEIR NOT NORMED ON POPULATIONS THAT ARE L IK E  POPULATIONS IN RICHMOND.Q . WHAT I S  DIFFERENT BETWEEN THE NORM AND THE POPULATIONOF RICHMOND?A . THE POPULATION IN RICHMOND HAS A DIFFERENT RACIALCO M PO SITIO N , A DIFFERENT SOCIOECONOMIC LEVEL THAN IS  THE POPULATION ON WHICH MOST OF THE S .  R . A . TESTS ARE NORMED.Q . RICHMOND HAS A —  I  AM SO RRY.A . T H IS WILL BE SHARED BY THE S .  R . A . A SSO CIA T ESTHEMSELVES. THEY ARE THE F IR S T  TO AGREE WITH THAT. AND RECOGNIZING THAT, IT  WOULD BEHOOVE RICHMOND SCHOOLS, OR ANY SCHOOL D IV IS IO N  FOR THAT MATTER, TO USE AS ADDITIONAL METHODS OF GETTING SOME INFORMATION THAT WOULD BE USEFUL TO THEM.WE ARE NOT N ECESSAR ILY SU PPLANTIN G, AS YOU S E E , THE TESTS THAT ARE PROVIDED BY THE ST A T E . WE ARE SIM PLY SUPPLEMENTING THEM SO THAT WE MIGHT HAVE SOME ASSESSMENT OF HOW STUDENTS PERFORM AT EVERY GRADE LEVEL RATHER THAN JU S T  AT STRATEGIC P O IN T S .Q . I  THINK YOU SA ID  ONE OF THE REASONS WHY YOU FEEL THE



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S .  R . A . TESTING DOES NOT, IS  NOT A FA IR  COMPARISON IS  BECAUSE THEY ARE NORMED AGAINST A POPULATION THAT IS  NOT COMPARATIVE TO THE C IT Y  OF RICHMOND. ONE REASON WAS RACIAL THE SECOND REASON WAS SOCIOECONOMIC S .  E . S .A . AND YET I  AM SAYING THAT, AND YET I  RECOGNIZE THATTHEY ARE IN D ICA T O R S. YOU KNOW, YOU CA N 'T  ALWAYS GET A PERFECT MATCH OF POPULATION. SIN C E  THESE ARE THE ASSESSMENT INSTRUMENTS USED THROUGHOUT THE ST A T E , IT  WOULD BE WELL FOR U S , YOU KNOW, HOW WE PERFORM AS COMPARED TO OTHER YOUNGSTERS, PERHAPS WHO ARE TAKING THEM WHO ARE IN  POPULATIONS THAT ARE NOT SIM ILA R  TO THE NORM GROUP AS WELL. T H IS IS  NOT TO INTEND OR CONVEY IN  T H IS PARTICULAR PLAN THAT WE ARE N ECESSARILY QUESTIONING OR CHALLENGING AT TH IS TIME A PARTICULAR STATE T E S T . WE ARE SIM PLY SAYING THAT WE WOULD L IK E  TO MAKE AN ASSESSMENT OF HOW WE USE OUR T E ST , THE WHOLE TESTING PROCESS TO SEE WHAT IM PLICA TIO N S THERE MIGHT BE FOR US TO DO SOMETHING D IFFE R E N T LY, MORE OF THE SAME, OR WHAT HAVE YOU.Q . OKAY. D R. JO N E S , WOULD YOU TURN TO PAGE 6 ,  PLEASE?IN  THE LAST PARAGRAPH YOU STATE THE PROPOSAL TO ESTABLISH SP E C IA L  D IAGN O STIC TEAMS CO N SISTIN G  OF D IA G N O ST IC S , P SY CH O LO G IST S, HEALTH PROVIDERS AND SO C IA L  WORKERS. IN ESTABLISH IN G TH IS PROPOSAL DID  YOU CHECK TO SEE WHETHER THAT EFFORT WOULD BE D U PLICA T IVE AT ALL OF ANY OF THE SO CIA L WORK GOING ON BY THE DEPARTMENT OF WELFARE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, BY ANY OF THE F IE L D  PLACEMENT THAT IS  ONGOING FROM V IR G IN IA



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COMMONWEALTH U N IV E R S IT Y , THE SO CIA L WORKERS THAT ARE WORKING FOR ALL OF THESE PEO PLE, FAMILY COUNSELING?A . WE CERTAINLY D ID . OUR D IAGN O STIC AND P R E SC R IP T IV ECENTER EFFORT GREW OUT OF THAT KIND OF COMMUNICATION AND JO IN T  PLANNING, AND IN D IV ID U A LS ARE FACED B A SIC A LLY  WITH THE SAME SIT U A T IO N  THAT WE A R E , WITH IN MANY CASES HOT ADEQUATE STAFF TO SERVE WHAT THEY PER CEIVE AS THEIR PRIMARY R E S P O N S IB IL IT Y , AND HAD L IT T L E  OPPORTUNITY TO SHARE EITHER IT S  TIME OR IT S  RESOURCES WITH ANOTHER IN S T IT U T IO N .Q . DID YOU EXAMINE OR CHECK TO FIND OUT WHAT SE R V IC E S AREPROVIDED BY STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT IN THAT AREA?A . AS I  S A ID , WHEN THE DIAGN O STIC AND P R E SC R IP T IV E  CENTERWAS ESTABLISHED WE HAD REGULAR COMMUNICATION WITH ALL OF THE DEPARTMENTS THAT YOU JU S T  ALLUDED TO .Q . THE D . AND P . CENTER I S  A SCHOOL BOARD?A . IT  IS  NOT A SCHOOL BOARD.Q . RUN BY WHOM?A . IT  IS  AN INTERAGENCY CENTER. THE F A C IL IT Y  I S  ARICHMOND P U B LIC  SCHOOL. THE STAFF REPRESENTS STAFF FROM SEVERAL AGENCIES INCLUDING SOME YOU JU S T  MENTIONED.Q . SO IT  I S  A COLLABORATION?A . A COLLABORATIVE. IT  IS  CALLED INTERAGENCY DIAGN O STICAND P R E SC R IP T IV E  CENTER.Q . OF STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT?A . IT  IS  OF STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT, Y E S .



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Q . D R. JO N E S , MOVE ON TO PAGE TEN , P LE A SE . TAKE A MINUTEAND LOOK AT THAT.AS I  RECALL YOUR TESTIMONY YESTERDAY, YOU INDICATED THAT THE GA IN S THAT WERE SHOWN IN  TH IS PROGRAM WERE PROVEN TO BE SUSTAINED IN LATER YE A R S, AND YOU STATED THE B A S IS  FOR THERE AS ONE, NATIONAL S T U D IE S , AND TWO, EVALUATIONS THAT WERE DONE IN THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCH O OLS. I S  THAT CORRECT?A . I  D ID .Q . OKAY. NON, L E T 'S  F IR S T  TALK ABOUT EVALUATION DONE BYTHE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOLS. WHO IS  ZELMA LIT T LE JO H N ?A . SUPERVISOR FOR EARLY CHILDHOOD EDUCATION FOR RICHMONDC IT Y  SCHOOLS.Q . I S  SHE THE IN D IVID U A L THAT DID THE EVALUATION?A . SHE IS  THE PERSON WHO CONDUCTED THE STUDY.Q . OKAY. LOOKING AT THE F IR S T  FULL PARAGRAPH OF PAGE 1 0 ,I  FIND ONLY ONE STUDY CONDUCTED BY THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOLS. ARE THERE OTHERS ON T H IS CHILDHOOD PROGRAM?A . THE ONE THAT I  RELATED TO IS  THE ONE THAT I  WASFAM ILIAR  W ITH. I  WOULD CONSIDER IT  —  WHEN I  SAY STUDY, IHAVE REFERENCE TO THOSE S T U D IE S , THOSE STU D IES CONDUCTEDWITHIN THE PARAMETERS OF GOOD RESEARCH AND THAT ARE SET UP IN SUCH A WAY THAT YOU CAN DRAW CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE FROM VARIOUS SURVEYS AND PER CEPT IO N S, ET CETERA. I  DID NOT IN CLUD E, AND I  DO NOT CONSIDER SUCH AS V A LID  RESEARCH.Q . SO ZELMA L IT T L E JO H N 'S  RESEARCH IS  V A LID  RESEARCH FROM



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YOUR PO IN T?A . IT  IS  CONSIDERED V A LID  RESEARCH AS ACCEPTED BY GEORGEWASHINGTON U N IV E R S IT Y .Q . OKAY. THAT RESEARCH DATA, THAT WAS THE TESTING INT H IS CASE THAT WAS DONE AT THE KINDERGARTEN GRADE L E V E L , I S  THAT NOT TRUE?A . Y E S . OF YOUNGSTERS WHO HAD HAD EARLY CHILDHOODEDUCATION EXPE R IEN CES.Q . WAS NOT DONE IN  RICHMOND AT LATER Y E A R S, THEN?A . KINDERGARTEN IS  LATER YEAR.Q . WHAT ABOUT THE T H IR D , F IF T H , SIXTH  GRADE?A . WE HAVE OPPORTUNITIES FOR SUCH YOUNGSTERS TO HAVE —WE HAVE INFORMATION ON SUCH YOUNGSTERS, WE HAVE DATA, TEST DATA FOR THOSE YOUNGSTERS IN SUBSEQUENT YE A R S.Q . OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THE TESTS THAT WEREADMINISTERED IN  THE KINDERGARTEN LEVEL WERE ADMINISTERED IN THE SPRIN G OR THE FALL?A . FOR T H IS PARTICULAR STUDY I  DON'T KNOW, I  WOULD HAVETO LOOK AT THE STUDY A G A IN .Q . WOULD IT  MAKE A D IFFERENCE?A . OBVIOUSLY IT  WOULD MAKE A D IFFE R E N CE , BUT YOU WOULDS T IL L  FACTOR IN YOUR CO N CLU SIO N S, THE CONDITIONS THAT MAY HAVE CAUSED THE D IFFEREN CE.Q . ARE THERE ANY D IFFE R E N CE S, MAJOR DIFFERENCES BETWEENTHE EARLY CHILDHOOD PROGRAM AND HEAD START PROGRAM?



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A . IN TERMS OF CURRICULUM THERE I S  GREAT S IM IL A R IT Y  OFCURRICULUM.Q . THE TERMS OF THE POPULATION SERVED I S  THE SAME AGEGROUP?A . SAME AGE GROUP, Y E S .Q . SAME INCOME STATUS?A . TO SOME EXTENT THERE MAY BE A DIFFERENCE IN THAT THEREAS A REQUIREMENT, A HUNDRED PERCENT P A R T IC IP A T IO N , MEDIUM,LOW INCOME REQUIREMENT IN HEAD ST ART. AND WE DO NOT REQUIRE A HUNDRED PERCENT IN OUR EARLY CHILDHOOD EDUCATION GROUPS.Q . B A SIC  O B JE C T IV E  I S  THE SAME FOR BOTH?A . THAT IS  TRUE.Q . OKAY. YOU STATED THERE WERE NATIONAL STUD IESB A SICA LLY SUPPORTING TH IS WHOLE URBAN CHILDHOOD CONCEPT?A . OF WHICH I  AM INCLUDING HEAD START.Q . ARE YOU AWARE OF THE RECENT SUMMARY AND AN ALYSISPERFORMED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SE R V ICE S ON THE IMPACT OF HEADSTART ON CH ILD REN , 1 985?A . THAT PARTICULAR STUDY IN THAT FORMAT, NO. I  HEARD, IKNOW SOME OF OF THE STU D IES OF WHICH YOU HAVE REFERENCE. YOU W ILL NOTE ALSO THERE ARE ST U D IES THAT REFUTE THE FIN D IN G S OF THAT ONE.Q . YOU ARE FAM ILIAR WITH THE FIN D IN G S OF T H IS ?A . I  AM FAM ILIAR WITH THE F IN D IN G S , Y E S .Q . TELL ME IF  YOU ARE FAM ILIAR WITH TH IS F IN D IN G .



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QUESTION WAS, EXAMINE THE OVERALL IM PACT.DOES HEADSTART HAVE IMMEDIATE P O S IT IV E  EFFECTS ON CHILDREN’ S SELF ESTEEM , ACHIEVEMENT, MOTIVATION AND SO C IA L BEHAVIOR?MR. MINCBERG: WE HAVEN'T BEEN PROVIDED WITH THAT DOCUMENT.THE COURT: O BJECTION  I S  OVERRULED.Q . THE ANSWER WAS, Y E S . AT THE END OF THE HEADSTART YEARPROGRAM PAR TICIPAN TS SCORE HIGHER IN ALL THREE AREAS THAN COMPARISON GROUPS OF NON HEADSTART CH ILD REN . THE GREATEST DIFFERENCE IS  IN SO CIA L BEHAVIOR, THE LEAST DIFFERENCE IS  IN SELF ESTEEM.SECOND, DO THE SO C10EMOTIONAL GAIN S FOUND IMMEDIATELY AFTER HEADSTART P E R S IS T  IN LATER YEARS?ANSWER, SOME SO CIA L BEHAVIOR FORMER HEADSTART ENROLEES CONTINUE TO SCORE HIGHER THAN NON HEADSTART CHILDREN TWO YEARS AFTER HEADSTART. AND THEN DROP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPARISON CHILDREN BY THE END OF THE THIRD YEAR.ON ACHIEVEMENT MOTIVATION AND SE LF ESTEEM, HEADSTART CHILDREN DROP BELOW NON HEADSTARTERS A YEAR AFTER HEADSTART THEN SCORE ABOUT THE SAME AS COMPARISON CHILDREN FOR THE NEXT TWO Y E A R S.ARE YOU FAM ILIAR WITH THAT FIN D IN G ?A . I  AM. I  ALONG WITH MANY EDUCATORS P O IN T , HASTEN TOPOINT OUT PERSONS ARE COMPARING HEADSTART STUDENTS WITH NON



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HEADSTART STUDENTS. F A IL IN G  TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE CHILDREN WHO DID NOT ATTEND HEADSTART ARE VERY OFTEN THE CHILDREN WHO DO NOT HAVE THE SAME M ALADIES. SO YOU ARE COMPARING CHILDREN WHO HAVE —  WHO DID  NOT HAVE THE PROBLEM TO START WITH WITH CHILDREN THAT WE HAVE ATTEMPTED TO WORK W ITH. SO YOU WOULD HAVE TO CONDUCT STU D IES THAT VERY FEW PEOPLE W ILL WANT TO CONDUCT, AND THAT IS  DELIBERATELY DENY A CH ILD  IN  NEED OF HEADSTART OF THAT S E R V IC E . AND THEN PROVIDE THE CH ILD  WHO ALSO HAS A NEED FOR IT  AND HAKE THAT KIND OF EXPERIMENTAL COMPARISON. VERY FEW OF THE SURVEYORS HAVE DONE THAT KIND OF RESEARCH. THEY COMPARE CHILDREN WHO DID HAVE HEADSTART WITH THOSE WHO DID NOT HAVE I T ,  F A IL IN G  TO RECOGNIZE THAT OBVIOUSLY THE CHILDREN WHO D ID  NOT QUALIFY WERE CHILDREN WHO WERE THOSE WITH THE HIGHEST SE LF ESTEEM, ET CETERA. SO IT  IS  NOT THE KIND OF RESEARCH THAT PROVES ANYTHING OTHER THAN YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH WORSE OFF THE CHILDREN WITH THE HEADSTART, WITHOUT IT  —  WITH IT  WOULD HAVE BEEN WITHOUT I T .  Q . IT  DOES R A ISE  SOME Q U ESTIO N , DOES IT  NOT?A . MAY R A ISE  SOME Q U ESTIO N , BUT IT  ALSO R A ISE S THE MAINQUESTION OF UNFAIR COMPARISONS AND DRAWING FAULTY CONCLUSIONS FROM DATA THAT DOES NOT, DOES NOT SET UP AN EXPERIMENTAL D ESIGN WHICH I S  REQUIRED IN  ORDER TO DRAW THOSE CONCLUSIVE JUDGMENTS.Q . DR. JO N E S , I  AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT ON THE B A SIS  OFONE STUDY WE GO AHEAD AND THROW OUGHT ALL OF THESE EARLY



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CHILDHOOD PROGRAMS. I  AM ASKING YOU, DOES IT  R A ISE  QUESTION ABOUT THE S U ST A IN A B IL IT Y  OF THE GA IN S THAT ARE ADDRESSED IN THE EARLY CHILDHOOD —A . DOES NOT. IT  R A ISE S ONLY THE SUGGESTION THAT THERE ISAN ATTEMPT TO MAKE A POINT THAT IS  NOT A V A LID  P O IN T , AND NO RESEARCH WILL SUPPORT.THE COURT: ON THAT DRAW, WE MIGHT TAKE A B R IE F R E C E S S . HELP THE W ITNESS DOWN.(A r e c e s s  was t a k e n .)MR. FORCH; D R. JO N E S , I  AM W ILLING TO SETTLE FOR A DRAW ON THAT, YOUR HONOR.THE COURT: I WAS BEING GENEROUS —  TO YOU.BY MR. FORCH:Q . DR. JO N E S , ON THE PROPOSAL FOR THE RICHMOND PU B LICSCHOOLS I  UNDERSTAND THAT A PROPOSAL FOR THE EARLY CHILDHOOD PROGRAM I S  TO REACH ALL THOSE CHILDREN BEFORE THEY COME INTO THE EARLY CHILDHOOD PROGRAM THAT ARE NOT BEING SERVED THAT ARE LOW INCOME. I S  THAT CORRECT?A . OUR FOCUS IS  ON THOSE CHILDREN WHO ARE IN GREATESTNEED, AND THEY TEND TO BE THOSE CHILDREN WHO ARE LOW INCOME, Y E S .Q . IS  IT  YOUR ASSUMPTION THERE EVERY LOT INCOME CH ILD  I SEDUCATIONALLY DEPRIVED?A . NOT EVERY, BUT MY EXPERIENCE SUGGESTS THAT THE VASTM AJORITY ARE



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Q ,  THE FOCUS OF THAT PROGRAM IS  LOW INCOME?A . IT  I S .Q . OKAY.A . AND THOSE LOW INCOME SIM PLY I S  THE INDICATOR OF A LOTOF OTHER FACTORS. OF COURSE YOU LOOK AT THOSE CONDITIONS THAT ARE CREATED BY LOW INCOME, AND I  DESCRIBED SOME OF THESE CONDITIONS ON YESTERDAY.Q . Y E S , I  HEARD YOU. IN  TERMS OF REDUCTION OF CLASSS I Z E , YOU T E S T IF IE D  YESTERDAY THAT YOU ALSO TAUGHT IN THE RICHMOND PU B LIC  SCHOOLS AND THAT YOU TAUGHT IN LARGER C L A S S E S . DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT THE CLASS S IZ E  WAS THAT YOU WERE TEACHING IN ?A . SMALLEST CLA SS OF OURS WAS 3 3 .Q . WAS THAT IN THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOLS?A . IT  WAS.Q . WHAT WAS THE LARGEST CLA SS S IZ E ?A . THAT I  TAUGHT, I  C A N 'T  REALLY RECALL BUT IT  WASPERHAPS SOMEWHERE IN THE MID 3 0 'S .Q . WHEN WOULD THAT BE IN TERMS OF YE A R S, 1 9 7 1 , 1 965?A . I  TAUGHT SIN C E  1 9 5 9 .Q . DON'T THE STATES HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT CLASSS IZ E ?A . THEY DO.Q . DON'T THEY S A Y , SET A MINIMUM LEVEL FOR CLASS S IZ E ?A . THEY SET A MAXIMUM L E V E L .



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Q . MAXIMUM. WHAT IS  THAT MAXIMUM?A . IT  IS  IN THE STANDARDS OF Q U A L IT Y . 25 KINDERGARTENAND IT  INCREMENTALLY INCREASES WITH THE OLDER YOUNGSTERS.Q . HAVE THE STATE STANDARDS BECOME MORE RIGOROUS OVERTIM E?A . THEY HAVE BEEN M ODIFIED TO SOME EXTENT. YOU SAY MORE\RIGOROUS IN TERMS OF ENFORCEMENT OR IN TERMS OF THE P R O V ISIO N S?Q . WELL, IN  TERMS OF THE CLA SS S I Z E .A . MORE —  DEFIN E WHAT YOU MEAN.Q . WELL REDUCING THE PER M ISSIB LE  CLASS S IZ E  OVER T IM E .A . THE C L A S S , THE NUMBER OF STUDENTS, THE MAXIMUM NUMBERYOU CAN SERVE HAS BEEN CONCERTED TO BE PUSHED TO BE REDUCED OVER T IM E . WE HAVE HAD MANY SUGGESTIONS THE NUMBER WOULD BE MORE D RASTICALLY REDUCED, HOWEVER THEY HAVE NOT. THERE HAS BEEN AN ATTEMPT.Q . YOUR CLA SS S IZ E  HAS ALWAYS BEEN BETTER IN TERMS OFWHAT THE STATE HAS REQUIRED, I  ASSUME.A . I  CANNOT SAY THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN BETTER THAN WHATTHE STATE REQUIRED.Q . W ELL, SIN CE  '7 0 ?A . I  CAN’ T EVEN S A Y , BECAUSE SIN CE  1970 I  HAVE NOT HADTHE R E S P O N S IB IL IT Y  TO KNOW WHAT ALL OF RICHMOND P U B LIC SCHOOL CLA SS S IZ E S  MIGHT HAVE BEEN.Q WELL, AT THE CURRENT TIM E?



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A . AT T H IS TIME THEY ARE BETTER, Y E S .Q . IN  TERMS OF COUNSELING SE R V IC E S YOU HAVE A COUNSELORIN  THE VARIOUS M AJORITY OF YOUR ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS?A . WE HAVE COUNSELING S E R V IC E S , WE DO NOT HAVE COUNSELORSIN ALL OF OUR ELEMENTARY SCH O OLS, MEANING THAT WE WOULD HAVE SOME PORTION OF A COUNSELOR'S TIME FOR EACH ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, Y E S .Q . THERE ARE 29 ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS?A . 29 ELEMENTARY SCH O OLS, Y E S .Q . HOW MANY ELEMENTARY COUNSELORS?A . THAT NUMBER I S  REFLECTED SOMEWHERE IN THERE. HO/EVER,I  HASTEN TO SAY THAT WE HAVE 29 SCHOOLS, BUT MANY OF OUR SCHOOLS HAVE MULTIPLE B U ILD IN G S THAT ARE SEPARATED AS FAR, WITH AS MUCH AS A HALF MILE OR A h IL E  DISTANCE BETWEEN B U IL D IN G S .Q . ARE THERE CERTAIN SCHOOLS WITH MORE COUNSELING NEEDSTHAN OTHER SCHOOLS?A . BY OUR C R IT E R IA  OF NEED, THE ANSWER WOULD B E , Y E S , BUTALL HAVE SOME NEED FOR S E R V IC E .Q . HAVE YOU CONSIDERED REALLOCATING A GREATER NUMBER OFCOUNSELORS TO THE SCHOOLS WITH GREATER NEED FROM THE SCHOOLS WITH LESSER NEED?A . THAT IS  THE B A S IS  FOR SOME SCHOOLS, THAT IS  ONE OF THEC R IT E R IA  FOR SOME OF THE SCHOOLS HAVING LE SS COUNSELING SE R V IC E S THAN OTHERS.



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Q . AND L E SS IS  HOW MANY?A HALF A COUNSELOR?A . SOME MAY HAVE A H ALF, SOME HAY HAVE LE SS THAN A H ALF.Q . I S N 'T  THAT B A SIC A LLY  ON THE B A S IS  OF S IZ E  OF THESCHOOL?A . NOT ONLY S I Z E , CONFIGU RATIO N, AND THE MEEDS OFPOPULATION.Q . ARE YOU AWARE AT ALL IN TERMS OF WHAT CHESTERFIELDAND/OR HENRICO OFFER CHILDREN IN TERMS OF COUNSELING SE R V IC E S ?A . NO, I  AM NOT FULLY AWARE OF WHAT THEY O FFER , IFANYTHING, AT ELEMENTARY L E V E L .Q . DR. JO N E S , IN  TERMS OF THE CAPITA L IMPROVEMENTS THATYOU PROPOSE IN T H IS C A SE , ARE ANY OF YOUR F A C IL IT IE S  UNSAFE OR UNFIT FOR OCCUPANCY?A . NOT KNOWINGLY UNSAFE.Q . STATE LAW REQUIRES YOU, DOES IT  NOT, TO CLOSE ANYBUILD ING THAT I S  UNFIT FOR OCCUPANCY?A . UNFIT I S  A RELATIVE TERM. D ESIRABLE IN TERMS OFHAVING WITHIN THEM THE RESOURCES TO DEVELOP, WITHIN WHICH THE PROGRAM CAN DEVELOP, I  WOULD SAY WE DO HAVE SUCH B U ILD IN G S THAT ARE NOT F IT  TO SERVE SUCH SE R V IC E S AND CERTAIN PROGRAMS. IN  TERMS OF UNFIT FOR HUMAN OCCUPANCY, TO SUGGEST THAT THEY ARE EITHER DANGEROUS OR WHATEVER, I  WOULD S A Y , NO TO THAT.OUR ATTEMPT IS  TO SAY THEY ARE NOT ADEQUATE IN TERMS OF



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NUMBERS, S P A C E S , AND THE TYPE OF SPACES TO ACCOMPLISH SOME OF THE O B JE C T IV E S SET FORTH IN THE PLAN PRIOR TO THAT SECTION ON F A C I L I T I E S ,Q . AND THEY ARE CLEAN?A . A V I S I T  TO OUR SCHOOL WOULD SUGGEST THAT THEY ARERELATIVELY CLEAN.Q . NOW, YOU HAVE UNDER CONSTRUCTION OR NEARING COMPLETIONA FEW MIDDLE SCH O O LS, DO YOU NOT?A . WE DO.Q . AND WHERE IS  THAT AND WHAT IS  THE NAME OF I T ,  PLEA SE?A . THOMAS BUSHELL MIDDLE SCHOOL LOCATED IN  THE SOUTH SID EOF RICHMOND.Q . D R. JO N E S , I S  IT  A REQUIREMENT OF GRADUATION THAT ALLCHILDREN TAKE AND PASS ALGEBRA AND GEOMETRY?A . I  THINK THE ANSWER TO THAT IS  Y E S , BUT I  WOULD WANT TOLOOK AT THE CURRICULUM GUIDE IN TERMS OF REQUIREMENTS.THE COURT: THAT IS  NOT YOU. I  AM TRYING TO AD JU ST I T .  IT  I S  WHACKEY. T H IS I S  A TEMPORARY S IT U A T IO N . AS YOU CAN S E E , WE ARE TESTING IT  OUT, AND IT  I S  VERY TEMPORARY.A . SIM PLY I  B E LIE V E  YOU HAVE OUR COURSE REQUIREMENTSTHERE. I F  YOU PLACE IT  BEFORE ME, OUR REQUIREMENTS FOR GRADUATION ARE RIGHT IN THERE BY S U B JE C T .Q . 'WHAT IS  THE T IT L E  OF THE DOCUMENT?A . I  DON'T KNOW. I  SAW YOU REFERRING TO SOMETHING, SO ITHOUGHT YOU HAD REFERENCE TO IT



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Q . I  WAS NOT REFERRING TO THAT.A . I  COULD E A SIL Y  PROVIDE FOR YOU THE VARIOUS GRADUATELEVEL REQUIREMENTS BY GRADE.Q . WITH THE COOPERATION OF COUNSEL WE W ILL GET THAT.I F  YOU COULD TURN TO YOUR E X H IB IT  1 3 , PLE A SE .DO YOU KNLW HOW RICHMOND IS  COMPARED TO HENRICO AND CHESTERFIELD IN  TERMS OF REM EDIAL, COMPENSATORY EDUCATION FUNDING?A . I F  T H IS E X H IB IT  IS  TO INDICATE THE SOURCE OF FUNDS,THEN WE HAVE IT  LA ID  OUT HERE BEFORE U S .Q . YOU DON'T KNOW HOW THEY ARE?A . IF  T H IS I S  ACCURATE DATA AND I  WOULD ASSUME THAT SIN C EWE GOT IT  FROM RELIABLE SO U R CES, WOULD SUGGEST IT  WOULD G IV E  YOU THAT KIND OF COMPARISON.Q . FOR CHESTERFIELD AND HENRICO?A . YOU HAVE HERE THE R . P . S .  AND THE ST A T E . YOU HAVEFEDERAL. SO I  AM SAYING THAT WE, JU S T  AS WE COLLECTED T H IS INFORMATION, THAT INFORMATION IS  AVAILABLE ON THOSE OTHER TOO SYSTEM S. IT  I S  NOT PART OF T H IS E X H IB IT .Q . TURN TO E X H IB IT  1 4 , P L E A SE . DO YOU KNOW THE TOTALNUMBER OF CHILDREN IN CHESTERFIELD AND HENRICO?A . NO.Q . GREATER THAN RICHMOND, IS  IT  NOT?A . I  WOULD REFER US TO THAT SOURCE WHICH I S  NOT A PART OFT H IS E X H IB IT



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Q . WOULD YOU TURN TO E X H IB IT  1 5 , P L E A SE . START FROM THEBOTTOM. PERCENTAGE OF ENTERING HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS THAT GRADUATE. FROM AN EDUCATIONAL POINT OF VIEW IS  IT  PROPER TO COMPARE THE QUALITY OF A SCHOOL D IV IS IO N  ON THE B A SIS  OF A PERCENTAGE OF CHILDREN WHO GO ON TO POST SECONDARY O PPORTU N ITIES?A . AS STATED E A R L IE R , THE NUMBER WHO GO WOULD NOT BE ASIMPORTANT AS THE NUMBER WHO ARE E L IG IB L E  OR WHO ARE CAPABLE SHOULD THEY D ESIR E  TO G O . I  THINK THERE WOULD BE SOME EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE FACT THAT THE QUALITY TO SOME DEGREE WOULD BE AFFECTED BY THE NUMBER OF STUDENTS THAT WOULD E X IS T  WHO HAVE OPTIONS THAT WOULD ALLOW THEM TO BE ACCEPTABLE FOR HIGHER EDUCATION.Q . NO TWO SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S  ARE A L IK E , I  THINK THAT ISO B V IO U S, BUT LET ME ASK YOU, ARE THERE A MYRIAD OF FACTORS THAT GO INTO WHY A CHILD OR STUDENT MAY DECIDE TO GO ON TO COLLEGE AS OPPOSED TO THE ARMY OR WORKING IMMEDIATELY?A . Y E S .Q . IT  IS  NOT RELATED TO WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE ATTENDINGAN ALL BLACK OR WHITE SCHOOL, IS  IT ?A . Y E S , IT  DOES HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH WHETHER YOU AREATTENDING ALL WHITE OR BLACK SCHOOL. YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO MAKE THE POINT THAT SCH O OLS, WHAT SCHOOLS ARE AND WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN CAN HAVE A TREMENDOUS EFFECT UPON WHAT A STUDENTPER CEIVES AS H IS POTENTIAL OR WHAT HE PER CEIVES AS WHAT CAN



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DE H IS  GOAL IN L I F E . SO IT  CAN HAVE AN IM PACT.Q . ARE YOU FAM ILIAR AT ALL WITH THE PH ILO SO PH IES OR THEO B JE C T IV E S OR CURRICULUM THAT GOES ON IN  HENRICO OR CH ESTERFIELD ?A . I  WOULD TO HAVE TO SAY NOT INTIMATELY FAM ILIAR WITHTHEM, NO.0 .  IF  A SCHOOL D IV IS IO N  HAS A STRONG PHILOSOPHY TO POSTSECONDARY OPPORTUNITY AS OPPOSED TO VO CATIONAL, WOULDN'T THAT HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE PERCENT OF CHILDREN GOING ON TO HIGHER EDUCATION?A . IF  IT  HAD, I  DON’ T KNOW THAT ANY OF THESE SCHOOLD IV IS IO N S  HAVE A MAJOR EMPHASIS TO THE EXCLUSION OF THE OTHER. MY UNDERSTANDING IS  ALL SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S  ARE LOOKING AT VOCATIONAL EDUCATION AS AN APPROPRIATE PART OF A COMPREHENSIVE EDUCATIONAL PROGRAM. THE D IRECTION THROUGHOUT EDUCATIONAL C IR C L E S I S  FOR IN FU SIO N  OF VOCATIONAL EDUCATION AND NOT HAVING SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S  NOR SCHOOLS EITHER NECESSARILY PERCEIVED OF AS PROVIDING EITH ER /O R . THE TREND I S  TOWARD IN FU SIO N  OF ACADEMICS AND VOCATIONAL EDUCATION.Q . BUT THE OUTCOME HERE, PERCENT OF GOING ON TO COLLEGE,I S  NOT SIM PLY A FUNCTION OF THE RACIAL COMPOSITION OF THE SCHOOL, THERE ARE MANY FACTORS THAT GO INTO THAT, I S  THAT NOT TRUE?A . ONE OF THE MOST S IG N IF IC A N T  FACTORS, HOWEVER, ARE THECONDITIONS THAT WE ARE SPEAKING O F . AMONG THEM, ACHIEVEMENT



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LEVEL# SU CCESS LE V E L , THE ATTITUDE OF ABOUT O N E 'S  A B IL IT Y  TO EE SU CCESSFU L IN COLLEGE, THE WHERE WITH ALL ONE NEEDS TO GO TO COLLEGE, ARE ALL CONDITIONS HERE THAT IMPACT UPON THE QUESTION OF THE KIND THAT YOU JU S T  MADE.Q . ARE THERE ANY OTHER FACTORS?A . AT THE R IS K  OF BEING REDUNDANT, THEY ARE THE FACTORS IJU S T  ALLUDED T O , COUPLED WITH THE FACT THAT YOUNGSTERS COME FROM SIT U A T IO N S WHERE MANY TIM ES BECAUSE THERE ARE OTHER PERSONS IN  THE HOME THAT HAVE NOT ATTENDED COLLEGE THEMSELVES, AND BECAUSE IT  IS  AN U N R EA LISTIC PERCEPTION OF ONE, WHAT ONE NEEDS TO BE L IK E  TO GO TO COLLEGE AND THE SUPPORT OF WHAT ONE MUST HAVE IN THE WAY —  HAVE IN THE WAY OF PREVIOUS SUCCESSFUL EXPERIENCES WHAT ONE MIGHT FIND IN  A COLLEGE THAT WOULD BE SUPPORTIVE OF THEM IN THE EVENT THEY NEEDED H ELP, THESE ARE ALL AWARENESSES THAT TO A GREATER EXTENT YOUNGSTERS WHO ARE SUFFERING THE V E ST IG E S OF SEGREGATION WOULD NOT HAVE CONTROL O F.Q . THAT IS  NOT THAT S IM P L E , I S  IT ?  I  MEAN, THERE AREMANY FACTORS THAT GO INTO I T .  A C H IL D , FOR EXAMPLE, WHO MAY DECIDE HE WANTS TO SUSPEND OR DEFER GOING ON AND WORK FOR A YEAR OR W O  TO GAIN THE RESOURCES, OR A CH ILD  MAY FEEL HE WANTS TO GO INTO THE ARMY, FOR WHATEVER REASON?A . THAT IS  THE KIND OF THING THAT NEEDS CAREFUL GUIDINGAND COUNSELING AND NURTURING TO GET HIM OR HER TO THAT POINT TO BE ABLE TO MAKE THAT KIND OF D E C ISIO N  ABOUT POST SECONDARY



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EDUCATION.Q . BUT THE POINT I  AM TRYINC TO ESTABLISH  IS  THAT THEREARE MANY CAUSES FOR THE S T A T IS T IC A L  OUTCOME THAT YOU HAVE ID E N T IF IE D ?A . MANY C A U SE S, HOWEVER, THOSE CAUSES THAT I  ALLUDED TOHAVING SOME RELATIONSH IP TO THE V E ST IG E S OF SEGREGATION BEING HIGH AMONG THE S IG N IF IC A N T  CAUSATION.Q . I  AM NOT QUITE SURE I  UNDERSTAND. IF  YOU ARE SAYING ASTUDENT D ECID ES TO GO INTO THE ARMY, THAT IS  A RESULT OF A V E ST IG E  OF SEGREGATION?A . I F  THAT STUDENT D ECIDES THE ARMY IS  H IS ONLY RECOURSEWHEN THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN OTHER OPTIONS OPEN TO HIM AND HE D ID N 'T  KNOW ABOUT I T ,  OR BECAUSE HE HAS NOT ARRIVED AT SOME POINT IN H IS OWN THINKING THAT HE IS  COLLEGE M ATERIAL, ET CETERA, THEN I  THINK IT  I S  RELATED.Q . SO IT  I S  A MATTER OF INFORMATION?A . NOT ONLY INFORMATION; INFORMATION, AWARENESSES THATLEADS TO CHANGED PERCEPTIONS OF O N E 'S  C A P A B IL IT IE S , OF O N E 'S  O PPO R TU N ITIES.Q . YOU HAVE ELEMENTARY GUIDANCE COUNSELORS, PSYCH O LO G IST,SO C IA L  WORKERS, S P E C IA L IS T S  IN TEACHERS AND P R IN C IP A L S ALL WORKING TO HELP THAT C H IL D , DO YOU NOT?A . SOME PEOPLE TO SOME DEGREE WHO CAN PROVIDE A LIM ITEDS E R V IC E .Q . DR. JO N E S , I  REFER YOU TO OUR E X H IB IT S  THAT YOU WERE



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D ISC U SS IN G  PREVIOUSLY WITH NAPOLIAN W ILLIA M S. I  ASK YOU TO TAKE A LOOK AT E X H IB IT  6 8 .Q . TURN TO PAGE ONE WHERE THE STATEMENT OP PHILOSOPHY I SSET FORTH. LOOK AT THE SECOND SENTENCE OF THE SECOND PARAGRAPH AND LET ME ASK YOU. DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT, STUDENTS OF MIDDLE SCHOOL AGE OR D IVERSE MENTAL, PH YSICAL AND SO C IA L DEVELOPMENT?A . Y E S .Q . LOOK AT THE THIRD PARAGRAPHl IT  ST A T E S, WE FURTHERB E LIE V E  THE TEACHER IS  THE GU ID IN G LIGHT IN THE LEARNING D ESIGN  AND A VALUE RESOURCE IN A S S IS T IN G  STUDENTS TO EXPERIENCE SU CCESS IN REACHING THEIR PO T E N T IA LS. DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?A . Y E S , I  DO.Q . I S N 'T  IT  TRUE, D R. JO N E S , THE MOST IMPORTANTINGREDIENT IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF ANY CH ILD  I S  LEAD ERSH IP, ATTENTION AND COMMITMENT?A . ON THE PART OF ALL PERSONS INTERACTING WITH THATC H IL D .Q . GOOD TEACH ING, GOOD LEADERSHIP OBVIATES THE N ECESSIT YFOR RESOURCES, I S N 'T  THAT TRUE?A . NO, THAT I S  NOT TRUE.Q . DON'T YOU HAVE GOOD TEACHING AND GOOD LEADERSHIP GOINGON IN SOME OF OUR SCHOOLS RESULTING IN GOOD OUTCOMES WITHOUTADDITIONAL RESOURCES?



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A . GOOD TEACH IN G, GOOD LEADERSHIP NEEDS TO BE SUPPORTEDBY ADEQUATE RESOURCES AND A COMMITMENT TO MAKE A D IFFER EN CE. ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER I S  INCOMPLETE.Q . SO WE ARE DEBATING THE ADEQUACY OF RESOURCE, NOTENOUGH, OR TOO MUCH, OR TOO L IT T L E ?A . THAT IS  ONE OF THE FACTORS THAT WE A R E , POINTS THAT WEARE MAKING, Y E S .Q . DR. JO N E S , THERE ARE DIFFERENT OUTCOMES IN TERMS OFYOUR SCH O OLS, CERTAIN SCHOOLS PERFORM BETTER THAN OTHERS, IS  THAT NOT TRUE?A . I  THINK THAT IS  A GENERALIZATION ANYWHERE.Q . DO YOU ALLOCATE YOUR RESOURCES AT ALL SO THAT MORERESOURCES GO TO THOSE SCHOOLS WITH LOWER OUTCOMES OR GREATER NEEDS, OR IS  IT  DONE ON A UNIFORM B A S IS ?A . THERE I S  A CERTAIN B A S IC  LEVEL OF ALLOCATIONS AND THENABOVE THAT YOU FIND SCHOOLS R ECEIVIN G ADDITIONAL ALLO CATIO N . THERE ARE SCHOOLS WITH PROGRAMS AND SE R V IC E S THAT REQUIRE ADDITIONAL A LLO CA TIO N S, AND THOSE PROGRAMS AND SE R V IC E S WERE D ESIGN ED , WERE ALLUDED TO THOSE SCHOOLS ON THE B A S IS  OF DIFFERENTIATED NEED.Q . HOW DO YOU ALLOCATE TEACHERS AMONG THE VARIOUSELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY SCHOOLS?A . WE HAVE A STANDARD STAFFIN G STANDARD THAT IS  MET WITHTHE EXCEPTION OF WHERE THERE ARE SP E C IA L  OR ACKNOWLEDGED SP E C IA L  EFFORTS IN SCHOOLS, AND YOU W ILL FIND TO SOME EXTENT



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ADDITIONAL RESOURCES AT THOSE SCHOOLS TO MAKE THAT D IFFER EN CE.Q . LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT TEACHERS. IS  IT  DONE ON A P U P ILB A S IS ?A . IN TERMS OF REGULAR CLASSROOM ASSIGNM ENTS, BUT THEREARE OTHER SE R V IC E S PROVIDED SCHOOLS THAT WOULD REQUIRE ADDITIONAL TEACHERS THAT WOULD, YOU KNOW, NOT HAVE REPLICATED IN DIFFERENT SCH O OLS.Q . WHERE ARE THOSE RESOURCES FOUND, WHAT KINDS OFSCHOOLS?A . W ELL, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN FOUND IN SCHOOLS WHERETHERE ARE CERTAIN KINDS OF EMPHASIS DURING A PERIOD OF TIME WHEN THERE WAS A SP E C IA L  ATTEMPT TO REDUCE THE DROP OUT RATE AND TO CONTINUE CHILDREN IN SCHOOL, CONTINUE THEIR INSTRUCTION EVEN THOUGH THEIR BEHAVIORS MAY HAVE INDICATED THAT SOME CONSEQUENCE WAS APPROPRIATE, STUDENT MIGHT HAVE TO BE EXCLUDED FROM H IS  REGULAR C L A S S E S . AS OPPOSED TO SENDING HIM HOME TO REMAIN WITHOUT IN ST RU CTIO N , HE HAY HAVE TO G O , GO INTO IN-SCHOOL SU SPEN SIO N . THERE ARE SOME SCHOOLS WITH INSCHOOL SUSPENSION STAFF THAT W ILL CONTINUE THE C H IL D 'S  IN ST RU CTIO N , BUT HE IS  EXCLUDED FROM THE OTHER CO-CURRICULUM KINDS OF A C T IV IT IE S  AND EXCLUDED FROM THE OPPORTUNITY OF INTERACTING WITH OTHER STUDENTS. THAT I S  AN EXAMPLE OF WHERE WE MIGHT HAVE AN ADDITIONAL EMPLOYEE IN A SCHOOL, AND NOT INALL SCHOOLS



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Q . IN TERMS OF ONCE THE ASSIGNMENTS ARE MADE TO THESEIN D IVID U A L SCHOOLS, DOES THE P R IN CIP A L OF A SCHOOL HAVE ANY POWER TO ALLOCATE THOSE TEACHERS AMONG THE VARIOUS CLA SSES SO THAT HE COULD HAVE, FOR IN STAN CE, A HIGHER CLASS STAFF RATIO WITH CHILDREN IN LE SS NEED AND GET LOWER STAFF —A . GENERALLY ASSIGNMENTS ARE MADE FOR THE S P E C IF ICPURPOSE STAFF DESIGNED FOR THAT PURPOSE AND HOT GENERALLY JU S T  TO DE AN ADDITIONAL PERSON THAT COULD AFFECT SIG N IF IC A N T L Y  THE PU PIL-TEACH ER R A T IO .Q . BUT IT  IS  UP TO THE P R IN CIP A L TO D ECID E?A . WOULD NOT B E . UP TO THE SYSTEM BECAUSE THE PROGRAMTHAT T H IS PERSON I S  —  TH IS ADDITIONAL EMPLOYEE WOULD BE THERE TO IMPLEMENT WOULD HAVE BEEN DETERMINED BEFORE HE IS  SENT TO THE SCHOOL. I F  YOU ARE SAYING AN EXTRA PERSON IS  SIM PLY SENT OUT TO REDUCE THE PU PIL-TEACH ER R A T IO , THAT I S  NOT A MANNER IN WHICH ADDED STAFF I S  PROVIDED TO A SCHOOL.Q . SAY YOU ARE ASSIGN ED  TEN TEACHERS TO AN ELEMENTARYSCHOOL. I S  THE D E C ISIO N  ON HOW TO ALLOCATE THOSE AMONG THE VARIOUS CLA SSES LEFT UP TO THE P R IN CIP A L ON A DECENTRALIZED B A S IS  OR IS  IT  CEN TRALIZED , YOU TELL THAT P R IN CIP A L YOU USE T H IS TEACHER FOR THESE MANY STUDENTS?A . OBVIOUSLY THE STUDENTS ARE THERE IN SOME KIND OFMEANINGFUL GRO UPINGS, GRADE L E V E L S , WHAT HAVE YOU. AND YOU HAVE A STANDARD, BOTH STATE AS A QUALITY AND RICHMOND’ S OWNSTAFFING STANDARD THAT W ILL G IV E  A P R IN CIP A L SOME IDEA AS TO



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THE S IZ E  OF THE C L A S S E S . BUT IN TERMS OF A CENTRAL ASSIGNMENT OF A TEACHER TO A GROUP OF CH ILD REN , THE ANSWER I S ,  NO, THAT I S  A R E S P O N S IB IL IT Y  OF A BU ILD IN G P R IN C IP A L .Q . NOW —A . BUT THE NUMBER OF PERSONS ALLOTED TO TOAT SCHOOL IS  ONTHE B A S IS  OF THE NUMBER OF STUDENTS RECOGNIZING OUR STANDARD. Q . IN  TERMS OF STATE AND LOCAL DOLLARS, NOT TEACHERS, HOWDO YOU ALLOCATE THOSE KINDS OF RESOURCES TO THE IN D IV ID U A L SCHOOLS?A . I  THOUGHT I  JU S T  ANSWERED THAT Q U ESTIO N .Q . MAYBE IT  IS  THE SAME WAY. I  WAS D IFFERENTIATIN G WITHPERSONNEL VERSUS DOLLARS THAT COME TO A P R IN CIP A L WHO D ECIDES TO SPEND IT  ON PAPER OR —A . ALL R IG H T . THERE ARE ADDITIONAL RESOURCES IN TOE WAYOF INSTRUCTIONAL S U P P L IE S  AND M ATERIALS. THE ALLOCATION IS  ON A PER P U P IL  ALLO CATIO N , AND IT  I S  CONSISTENT THROUGHOUT THE D IV IS IO N .Q . OKAY.THANK YOU, D R. JO N E S .MR. MINCBERG: NO Q U E ST IO N S.THE COURT* UNLESS I  HEAR O B JE C T IO N , THE WITNESS IS  EXCUSED. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.CALL YOUR NEXT W ITN ESS.(W ITNESS DOWN.)MR. MINCBERG* YOUR HONOR, NEXT W ITNESS W ILL BE DR.



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WILBERT JE N K IN S  WHO IS  IN THE WITNESS ROOM, I  B E L IE V E .(WITNESS SWORN.)WILBERT JE N K IN S  T E S T IF IE D  AS FOLLOWS I D IRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MINCBERG:Q . D R. JE N K IN S , WOULD YOU STATE YOUR FULL NAME?A . WILBERT LONG JE N K IN S .Q . WHAT IS  YOUR OCCUPATION?A . I  AM SERVING AS DIRECTOR OF MIDDLE SCHOOLS FOR THEC IT Y  OF RICHMOND.Q . I  AM SORRY?A . DIRECTOR OF MIDDLE SCHOOL EDUCATION FOR THE C IT Y  OFRICHMOND.Q . BY THE C IT Y  OF RICHMOND, YOU ARE REFERRING TO THE —A . RICHMOND P U B LIC SCHOOL BOARD.Q . WOULD YOU D ESCR IBE FOR U S , DR. JE N K IN S , YOUREDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND BEGINNING WITH COLLEGE?A . I  RECEIVED A MASTERS OF SCIE N CE  IN ELEMENTARYEDUCATION FROM FAYETTEVILLE STATE U N IVER SITY IN FA Y E T T E V ILLE , NORTH CAROLINA.MASTER OF SCIE N CE  IN ADM INISTRATION AND LEADERSHIP FROM INDIANNA U N IVER SITY AT THE BLOOMINGTON CAMPUS. IN 1976 I  RECEIVED A DOCTOR OF EDUCATION DEGREE FROM MILBOURNE U N IVE R SITY IN  FLO R ID A .Q . WOULD YOU DESCRIBE FOR US YOUR OCCUPATIONAL H ISTO R Y ,



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PLEASE?A . I  BEGAN TEACHING IN 1961 IN FREDERICKSBURG, V IR G IN IA .CONING TO RICHMOND TEACHING IN 1 9 6 3 .Q . WHAT SCHOOLS DID YOU TEACH IN ?A . IN RICHMOND I  TAUGHT IN BUCHANAN ELEMENTARY ANDCHIMBORAZO ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.Q . HOW LONG DID YOU REMAIN IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL TEACHING?A . I  WAS AT BUCHANAN ELEMENTARY FOR ONE YEAR ANDCHIMBORAZO FOR FOUR YEA R S.Q . THAT WOULD BRING US UP TO ABOUT WHAT 1968?A . 1 9 6 8 , Y E S .Q . WHAT HAPPENED THEN IN TERMS OF —A . IN '6 8  I  WAS APPOINTED GENERAL SUPERVISOR OFELEMENTARY EDUCATION FOR THE C IT Y  OF RICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD.Q . WHAT DID  THAT INVOLVE?A . I  WORKED WITH ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS AND WORKING WITHP R IN C IP A L S TO IMPROVE AND ENHANCE INSTRUCTIONAL PROGRAMS FOR ELEMENTARY STUDENTS.WORKING ON SEVERAL PROBATIONARY TEACHERS, MORE D IR ECTLY WITH P R IN C IP A L S AND OTHER STAFF W ITHIN THE SCHOOL.Q . HOW LONG D ID  YOU CONTINUE IN THAT P O SIT IO N ?A . I  WORKED IN  THAT P O SIT IO N  FOR A YEAR, ONE YEAR.Q . WHAT HAPPENED THEN?A . WELL, DURING THAT TIME I  SERVED AS AN EDUCATIONALWRITER FOR THE RICHMOND MODEL C IT I E S  PROGRAM. AT THAT TIME



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ON LOAN FROM THE RICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD.Q . WHAT WERE YOUR R E S P O N S IB IL IT IE S ?A . I  WENT WITH EDUCATIONAL TASK COMPONENT TO DEVELOPPROGRAMS DESIGNED TO R A ISE  ACHIEVEMENT LEVELS OF CERTAIN YOUNGSTERS IN SCHOOLS DESIGNATED AS MODEL NEIGHBORHOOD SCHOOLS.Q . THESE ARE MODEL C IT Y  NEIGHBORHOOD?A . MODEL C IT Y  NEIGHBORHOOD SCH O OLS, Y E S .Q . I  AM SO RRY.A . FOR ONE YEAR.Q . SO THAT WOULD BRING US TO 1970?A . 1 9 7 0 , Y E S .Q . WHERE DID  YOU GO THEN?A . APPOINTED P R IN CIP A L OF GEORGE MASON ELEMENTARY IN1 9 7 0 .Q . WAS THAT ONE OF THE SCHOOLS INVOLVED IN  THE MODELC IT Y ?A . MODEL NEIGHBORHOOD SCHOOL, Y E S .Q . I S  GEORGE MASON A L SO , DR. JE N K IN S , A SCHOOL THAT WASALL BLACK PRIO R TO DESEGREGATION?A . Y E S , IT  WAS.Q . HOW LONG D ID  YOU CONTINUE AS P R IN CIP A L AT GEORGEMASON?A . I  WORKED AT GEORGE MASON FOR F IV E  YE A R S.
Q,  AND I  GUESS THAT BRINGS US TO 1 9 7 5 , I S  THAT R IGH T?



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A . ABOUT * 7 5 , Y E S .Q . WHERE DID YOU GO FROM THERE?A . THOMAS H . HENDERSON MIDDLE SCHOOL ON NORTHSIDE INRICHMOND, V IR G IN IA .Q . WAS THAT AN OLD SCHOOL OR A NEW SCHOOL?A . THAT WAS A NEW SCHOOL. IT  WAS A YEAR OLD WHEN I  WENTTHERE. ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF MAYBE.Q . WHAT WAS THE SCHOOL WHOSE ATTENDANCE AREA IT  DREW FROMAT THE JU N IO R  HIGH OR MIDDLE LEVEL?A . AT THE MIDDLE L E V E L , WE DREW AT THAT TIME FROM J .  E .B . STUART ELEMENTARY, ANOTHER ELEMENTAi.Y SCHOOL, HIGHLAND PARK ELEMENTARY, OVER BY SHEPPARD AND BELLEVU E, AND CARY MODEL SCHOOLS.Q . BELLEVUE AND CARY ARE MODEL SCHOOLS?A . Y E S .Q . THOSE ARE WITH D IS T R IC T  WIDE ENROLEMENT?A . WITH D IS T R IC T  WIDE ENROLEMENT, Y E S .Q . PUTTING THOSE A S ID E , THE OTHER ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS YOUMENTIONED, WERE THOSE TR A D ITIO N A L, PRIOR TO DESEGREGATION,ALL WHITE OR ALL BLACK SCHOOLS?A . ALL WHITE SCHOOLS.Q . I  TAKE IT  —  LET ME ASK YOU T H IS . HOW LONG D ID  YOUCONTINUE AS P R IN CIP A L AT HENDERSON?A . I  WAS AT UENDERSON FOR TEN YE A R S.Q . UP U NTIL ASSUMING YOUR PRESENT PO SIT IO N  AS DIRECTOR OF



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MIDDLE SCHOOLS?A . 20 MONTHS I  HAVE BEEN IN TH IS PO SIT IO N  NOW.Q . D R. JE N K IN S , HAVE YOU BEEN INVOLVED BOTH IN  YOURTENURE AT GEORGE MASON AND MODEL C IT I E S  AND AT HENDERSON IN DESIGNING IMPLEMENTING PROGRAMS TO IMPROVE EDUCATIONAL ACHIEVEMENT OF CHILDREN IN R . P . S . ,  RICHMOND P U B LIC SCHOOLS? A . Y E S .Q . IN GENERAL, LOOKING BOTH AT THE POPULATION AND ATSCHOOLS L IK E  GEORGE MASON AND THE POPULATIONS IN SCHOOLS L IK E  HENDERSON AND FEEDER SCH O OLS, CAN YOU D ESCR IBE FOR US WHAT PROBLEMS YOU HAVE ENCOUNTERED IN  TRYING TO R A ISE  ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT?A . WELL, GENERALLY THE STUDENTS IN THE EXTENDED AREA OFRICHMOND APPEAR TO HAVE A MORE, QUOTE, LACK OF R E A D IN E SS,THAN THE YOUNGSTERS THAT I  DEALT WITH IN OTHER AREAS OF THE C IT Y . PROBLEMS OF DOING WORK ON THE PART OF YOUNGSTERS, LOW SELF ESTEEM, LACK OF MOTIVATION PROBABLY COMPOUNDED BY COMMUNITY PERCEPTIONS OF SCHOOLS AND THE L IK E . AS WE LOOKED AT OUR YOUNGSTERS, AND S P E C IF IC A L L Y  IN THE GEORGE MASON AREA, WE WORKED TO PROVIDE SOME IN TE N SIV E  REMEDIATION FOR THOSE YOUNGSTERS WHO HAD EXTREME D E F IC IT S  IN THE B A S IC  S K IL L  AR EA S, MEANING SIM PLY THE LACK OF A B IL IT Y  AND —  NOT A B IL IT Y , LACK OF PERFORMANCE TO APPLY THE S K IL L S  NEEDED TO EXPERIENCE SU CCESS IN THE ENTRY LEVEL AND ALSO IN THE VARIOUS GRADE LEVELS OR IN A PARTICULAR GRADE LE V E L .



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THE PROGRAMS THAT WE DESIGNED AT THAT TIME WERE SM ALL, AND MORE IN TUNE WITH THE POWER OF PERSUASION TO CHANGE INSTRUCTIONAL STRATEGIES THAN TO HAVE THE RESOURCES AVAILABLE TO DO SOME OF THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT WE FELT WOULD BE GOOD FOR THE YOUNGSTERS IN TERMS OF REDUCING THE CLASS S IZ E  AND PROVIDING MORE S P E C IA L IS T S  TO WORK WITH THE YOUNGSTERS WHO DEMONSTRATED SOME ACUTE D E F IC IT S  IN THE B A S IC  S K IL L S  AR EA S.I  DID EXPERIENCE SOME PROBLEMS IN TRYING TO PROVIDE IN -S E R V IC E  PROGRAMS FOR STAFF IN  TERMS OF MAKING ATTITUDINAL CHANGES AS FAR AS EXPECTATIONS AND INSTRUCTIONAL STRATEGIES TO WORK WITH CHILDREN —  I  AM A L IT T L E  NERVOUS —  TO WORK WITH CHILDREN IN THE B A S IC  S K IL L S  AREAS.Q . YOU ARE DOING JU S T  F IN E , NO REASON TO BE NERVOUS ATA L L .A . CONTRASTED WITH THAT, WHEN I  MOVED FROM GEORGE MASONELEMENTARY TO NORTHSIDE I  ENCOUNTERED GENERALLY SPEAKING SOME OF THE SAME KINDS OF PROBLEMS, BUT I  FOUND THAT THE YOUNGSTERS AT THE MIDDLE SCHOOL LEVEL AT HENDERSON WERE A B IT  MORE A G G R E SSIV E , I F  I  CAN USE THAT WORD, IN TERMS OF HAVING A D ESIR E  TO WANT TO PERFORM, BUT D ID N 'T  DEMONSTRATE THE KIND OF ACHIEVEMENT THAT WAS DESIRED AT THAT T IM E . AND FOCUSING ON THE NEED AND LOOKING AT THE PR O FILE OF THAT SCHOOL, WE HAVE HAD TO DEVELOP AN ALTOGETHER DIFFERENT SET OF STRATEGIES TO BRING INTO BEING SOME PROGRAMS THAT WOULD WORK AND MEET THE NEEDS OF THE CHILDREN THERE.



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HERE A G A IN , I  ENCOUNTERED SOME OP THE SAME PROBLEMS BECAUSE WE LACKED THE B A S IC  RESOURCES WE NEEDED TO PROVIDE AND EXPAND A COUPLE PROJECTS THAT WOULD BE PUT INTO PLACE TO R A ISE  THE ACADEMIC PERFORMANCE LEVEL OF THE YOUNGSTERS. WE D ID  HAVE A LOT OF SU CCESS IN THAT AREA, HOWEVER A S IG N IF IC A N T  NUMBER OF YOUNGSTERS WE COULD NOT REACH BECAUSE WE D ID N ’ T HAVE THE PROPER RESOURCES TO PROVIDE CLASS S I Z E S , ET CETERA. WE HAD TWO MAIN PR O JECTS WE PUT IN PLACE AT THE 8TH GRADE LEVEL WHICH CAUSED US TO HAVE TO R A ISE  THE PUPIL-TEACHER RATIO AT 6TH AND 7TH GRADE LEVEL IN ORDER TO PROVIDE SP E C IA L  PROGRAM AT GRADE 8 IN PREPARING YOUNGSTERS FOR B A SICA LLY HIGH SCHOOL.Q . THE KINDS OF PROBLEMS THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT THAT YOUWERE TRYING TO OVERCOME, THE MOTIVATIONAL PROBLEMS, STAFF DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMS, BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE IN RICHMOND AND YOUR EDUCATION AS AN EDUCATOR, [DOUBLE/DO YOU B E LIE V E ] THERE I S  ANY R ELATIO N SH IP BETWEEN THOSE PROBLEMS AND THE PAST PRIOR STATE-MANDATED SEGREGATED SYSTEM?A . Y E S .Q . CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?A . WELL, B A SICA LLY BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT THEEXPECTATION LEVEL OF THE YOUNGSTERS BY THE COMMUNITY AND BY THE SCHOOL PERSONNEL HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY THE —MR. LU CYK: O BJECTIO N  TO THE PRC®ABLY, JU D G E .THE COURT: W ELL, G IV E  US YOUR VIEW . GO AHEAD.



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A . Y E S . AND THE FACT THAT THE PARENTS OF THE CHILDRENTHAT WERE PRESENTLY BEING SERVED WERE EDUCATED IN  A DUAL SYSTEM , AND CERTAINLY THE V E S T IG E S , THEY WERE AFFECTED BY THE V E S T IG E S .Q . D R. JE N K IN S , YOU MENTIONED TEACHERS A FEW MOMENTS AGO.DO YOU KNOW OF YOUR OWN KNOWLEDGE WHETHER THEY WERE TEACHERS IN THE RICHMOND P U B LIC SCHOOLS WHO WERE EDUCATED THEMSELVES IN A PRIOR DUAL SYSTEM?A . Y E S .Q . ARE THERE SOME?A . Y E S .Q . DR. JE N K IN S , HAVE YOU HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE ALOOK AT THE COMPREHENSIVE R E L IE F  PLAN BEING PROPOSED BY THE RICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD TODAY?A . SOMEWHAT, Y E S .Q . CAN YOU TELL US BASED ON YOUR VIEW PRIM ARILY AS AP R IN CIP A L FOR THESE MANY YEARS WHAT KIND OF IMPACT YOU B E LIE V E  THAT THOSE PROGRAMS CAN HAVE IN TRYING TO REMEDIATE SOME OF THE V E ST IG E S OF SEGREGATION THAT YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT?A . Y E S . WHEN I  LOOKED AT THAT PLAN AND GOT VERY EXCITEDABOUT IT  BECAUSE IT  EMBODIED SOME OF THE VERY THINGS THAT WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT OVER THE YEARS OF BEING ABLE TO PROVIDE FOR YOUNGSTERS, FOR EXAMPLE, EXTREMELY COMPLIMENTARY OF THE EARLY CHILDHOOD EDUCATION PROGRAM WHICH YOU CAN EXTEND THAT TO



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IMPROVE THE READINESS {TPH RES} LEVEL OP YOUNGSTERS TO HANDLE THE B A S IC  S K I L L S . AND ALSO THE ONE THAT ALMOST ALL P R IN C IP A L S —  I AM ALWAYS GOING TO BE A SCHOOL P R IN CIP A L —  MOST SCHOOL P R IN C IP A L S L IK E  TO REDUCE CLASS S IZ E  WHICH W ILL ALLOW THE TEACHER MORE TIME TO WORK WITH YOUNGSTERS IN PREPARING FOR B A S IC  ASSIGNMENT FOR S K IL L  RETENTION, ET CETERA. THE EXTENSION OF AFTERNOON A C T IV IT IE S  TO BRING INTO BEING ACADEMIC CLOSENESS AND THE L IK E  FOR YOUNGSTERS. MOST IMPORTANTLY TO ME IT  I S  A COMPREHENSIVE APPROACH, THE D IAGN O STIC AND TESTING COMPONENT OF I T .  WE TRIED TO SO HARD AS P R IN CIP A LS IN VARIOUS SCHOOLS TO BRING INTO BEING PROGRAMS TO IMPROVE INSTRUCTIONAL LEVEL OF YOUNGSTERS, AND OF COURSE THE LEARNING PROCESS THAT IS  RELATED TOGETHER. BUT IT  HAS BEEN RATHER D IF F IC U L T . T H IS APPEARS TO BE A COMPREHENSIVE PROGRAM TO SAY WE CAN CURE SOME D E F IC IT S  THAT ARE SO BADLY NEEDED, E SP E C IA LLY  AT THE BEGINNING L E V E L , AT ENTRY L E V E L . NOTWITHSTANDING, THOUGH, THE VARIOUS PARTICULAR GRADE LEVELS THROUGHOUT.IT  I S ,  I  CERTAINLY FEEL THAT IT  IS  A GREAT STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION  TO DO SOMETHING FOR THE K ID S IN  THE C IT Y  OF RICHMOND.Q . THANK YOU, D R. JE N K IN S . NO FURTHER Q U E ST IO N S.THE COURT: ANY CROSS-EXAM IN ATIO N ?ALL R IG H T , S I R . CROSS-EXAM INATION



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BY MR. TORCH *Q . GOOD AFTERNOON.A . GOOD AFTERNOON.Q . COULD THE WITNESS BE SHOWN OUR E X H IB IT  NUMBER 6 9 ,PLE A SE . D R. JE N K IN S , CAN YOU ID EN T IFY THAT DOCUMENT AS YOUR ANNUAL SCHOOL PLAN FOR HENDERSON IN '8 2 - '8 3 ?A . Y E S , S I R .Q . IN THAT PLAN THERE ARE SOME 23 O B JE C T IV E S THAT WERESET FOR YOUR SCHOOL. I  COUNTED THEM. TRUST HEAND 17 OF THEM WERE MET, 6 MAKING PROGRESS. NONE OF THEM D ID  YOU IN D ICATE THAT YOU HAD, HAVE NOT MADE PROGRESS. WHAT DO YOU ACCOUNT ALL THAT SU CCESS TO?A . HARD WORK, ONE.THE COURT; YOU HAVE GOT TO REMEMBER THAT YOU ARE UNDER OATH, SO IT  I S  NO TIME TO BE MODEST.A . THANK YOU.WE THINK B A SICA LLY  THAT THE PROGRAM AND STRATEGIES THAT WE PUT IN PLACE AS RELATED IN  TH IS ANNUAL PLAN MET THE NEEDS OF THE YOUNGSTERS THAT WE SERVED AT THAT T IM E . OUR BOYSS AND G IR L S  THAT ATTENDED HENDERSON DURING TH IS PERIOD WERE VERY HIGHLY MOTIVATED YOUNGSTERS, AND A LOT OF PROPER GUIDANCE FROM HOME AND COMMUNITY PERCEPTION OF THE SCHOOL. THE ATTENDANCE ZONE THAT WE SEVERED WE THOUGHT WAS PROBABLYPRETTY GOOD ATTENDANCE THERE WERE INDICATORS THAT WE W ILL



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BUILD ON S U C C E S S .Q . THE BLACK REPRESENTATION WAS ROUGHLY 83 PERCENT?A . ABOUT 83 PERCENT, Y E S .Q . LOW INCOME ROUGHLY 51 PERCENT?A . THE LOW INCOME.Q . LOW INCOME CHILDREN?A . I  AM NOT SURE I  UNDERSTAND THE 51 PERCENT, HCW YOU ARERELATING THAT.Q . WHAT I  AM ASKING I S  HOW MANY OF THOSE CHILDREN WEREYOU SERVING WERE COMING FROM LOW INCOME F A M IL IE S ?A . MAYBE 51 PERCENT, BUT I  AM NOT SU R E. THAT IS  YOURF IG U R E . I  DON’ T REMEMBER THE EXACT FIGURE IN THERE.A . BUT I  W ILL —Q . Y E S , S I R ?A . GO AHEAD.IT  I S  DOCUMENTED IN THERE.Q . WOULD YOU TURN TO E X H IB IT  NUMBER 5 4 . IT  MAY BE IN THEF IR S T  E X H IB IT  BOOK. Y E S , IT  I S .DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT DOCUMENT?A . Y E S , I  DO.Q . WHAT IS  THAT DOCUMENT, D R. JE N K IN S ?A . SECONDARY RECOGNITION PROGRAM RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOLS.Q . WHO WERE YOU SEEKING RECOGNITION FROM?A . STATE OF V IR G IN IA .Q . WOULD YOU TURN TO PAGE 2 ,  P LE A SE . LOOK AT LIN E  7 ,



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NUMBER 7 .  WE ARE IN THE SAME E X H IB IT .A . OKAY.Q . E X H IB IT  5 4 . LIN E  7 .A . LIN E  7 .Q . Y E S . PERCENTAGE OF STUDENTS FROM LOW INCOME F A M ILIE S51 POINT 9 PERCENT?A . THAT IS  R IG H T .Q . I S  THAT ROUGHLY THE SAME PERCENTAGE THAT YOU WOULDTHINK WHEN YOU WERE AT THE SCHOOL?A . APPROXIMATELY THE SAME, Y E S .Q . SO YOU HAVE A PREDOMINANTLY BLACK SCHOOL WITHPREDOMINANT LOW INCOME THAT I S  PERCEIVED AS A GOOD SCHOOL, AND THE COMMUNITY WOULD P E R C E IV E , I S N 'T  THAT WHAT YOU S A ID , IT  HAD A GOOD PERCEPTION IN  THE COMMUNITY?A . Y E S .Q . HOW IMPORTANT IS  THE LEA D ER SH IP, THE A B IL IT Y  OF AP R IN CIP A L IN GENERATING ACHIEVEMENT FROM STUDENTS?A . HOW IMPORTANT?Q . Y E S , S I R .A . VERY IMPORTANT.Q . I S  THERE ANY FACTOR THAT I S  MORE IMPORTANT?A . Y E S .Q , WHAT IS  THAT?A . MOTIVATION ON THE PART OF THE YOUNGSTERS, H ELP, CAREAND CONCERN FROM THE PARENTS, GOOD TEACH IN G. MOST OF ALL



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GOOD TEACHING.Q . ALL THOSE Q U A L IT IE S  CAN COMPENSATE FOR A CH ILD  THAT ISNOT WELL MOTIVATED?A . ALL OF THOSE Q U A L IT IE S  —Q . Y E S .A . —  CAN COMPENSATE.Q . CAN HELP?A . CAN H ELP, Y E S .Q . CAN HELP A LLE V IA T E ?A . CAN H ELP, Y E S .Q . THANK YOU. JU S T  A SECOND.THE COURT: T H IS IS  WHERE YOU GET IN  TROUBLE.THAT HAS BEEN MY E XPE R IEN CE.Q . DR. JE N K IN S , WHEN YOU WERE AT HENDERSON, YOU WERETEACHING K ID S THAT WERE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCING A SEPARATED DUAL SCHOOL SYSTEM , WERE YOU NOT?A . Y E S , Y E S .Q . OKAY.A . IN IT IA L L Y  WHEN I  F IR S T  WENT THERE TO HENDERSON, Y E S .Q . YOUR TESTIMONY THAT TEACHERS WERE EDUCATED IN  THERICHMOND P U B LIC  SCHOOL SYSTEM , I S  THAT BASED UPON YOUR EXPERIENCE AT GEORGE MASON?A . Y E S , AND SOME AT —  AND AT HENDERSON, ALSO ATHENDERSON WE HAD RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOL GRADUATES TEACHING ATHENDERSON, YES



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Q . THANK YOU.THE COURT: ANY FURTHER EXAMINATION?REDIRECT EXAMINATIONBY MR. MINCBERG:Q . DR. JE N K IN S , I  B E LIE V E  YOU T E S T IF IE D  THAT THE SCHOOLSFROM WHICH HENDERSON FE ED S, THE FEEDER ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS WERE FORMERLY ALL WHITE SCH O OLS, T H A T 'S CORRECT?A . THAT I S  CORRECT.Q . AND WHAT ABOUT THE THE SCHOOL, JU N IO R  HIGH OR MIDDLESCHOOL HENDERSON TOOK PART OF THE ATTENDANCE AREA OF WHAT SCHOOL WAS THAT?A . CHANDLER JU N IO R  HIGH SCHOOL, AND THAT SCHOOL WASCLOSED WHEN HENDERSON WAS B U IL T . THAT WAS A FORMERLY ALL WHITE SCHOOL.Q . IN  CONTRAST TO THAT, I  THINK YOU TOLD US THAT THE EASTEND SCHOOLS, THAT YOU D ESCR IB E D , SUCH AS GEORGE MASON, WERE FORMERLY ALL BLACK SCH O OLS, I S  THAT CORRECT?A . THAT IS  CORRECT.Q . IN  YOUR VIEW DID THE SENSE OF THE SCHOOLS AS FORMERLYALL WHITE OR FORMERLY ALL BLACK HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE IMPROVED PERCEPTIONS AT THE HENDERSON AREA THAT YOU T E S T IF IE D  TO?A . Y E S .Q . CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?A . WELL, THE FORMERLY ALL WHITE SCHOOLS WERE LOCATED IN



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NEIGHBORHOODS THAT B A SICA LLY BLACK POLKS WERE TRYING TO MOVE INTO BECAUSE OF THE PERCEPTIONS OF THE COMMUNITY. THEY WERE LOCATED IN  A SE C T IO N , THEY ARE LOCATED IN  A SECTION OF RICHMOND THAT IS  IN  NORTUSIDE, AND WE LOOK UPON AS AN AREA THAT HAS REALLY GOOD SCHOOLS AND GOOD NEIGHBORHOODS, THAT KIND OF TH IN G .Q . AND I S  THE FORMERLY ALL WHAT STATUS SOMETHING THATCONTRIBUTED TO THAT IN YOUR VIEW ?A . I  THINK S O , Y E S .Q . EVEN AT HENDERSON, D R. JE N K IN S , ARE THERE S T IL LCHILDREN D ESPITE THE PROGRESS THAT YOU HAVE MADE THAT ARE SUFFERING FROM THE V E ST IG E S OF SEGREGATION, IN  YOUR VIEW ?A . Y E S .Q . WHAT WOULD YOU HEED TO PROVIDE ADDITIONAL A SSISTAN CETO THOSE CHILDREN?A . WE WOULD NEED A SUSPENSION OF SOME OF THE PROGRAMSTHAT WE HAVE IN OPERATION THERE NOW.Q . WHAT WOULD THAT BE?A . FOR EXAMPLE, LOWER TEACH ER-PU PIL RATIO IN GRADES S IXAND SEVEN . MORE REMEDIAL TEACHERS IN GRADES SEVEN AND EIGHT PARTICULARLY GRADE E IG H T .THAT IS  AT TI1E LEVEL THAT WE HAVE AN INTERVENTION PROGRAM ON. BUT IN ORDER TO R A ISE  THE ACHIEVEMENT LEVEL AT HENDERSON WE HAD TO MAKE.Q . WE HAVE BEEN OVER T H IS . WELL, PERHAPS YOU CAN EXPLAIN



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IT  TO THE JU D G E .A . WE HAD TO HAKE ADJUSTMENTS IN CERTAIN AREAS IN ORDERTO IMPROVE THE PERFORMANCE. AVERAGE SCORES AT HENDERSON ARE GOOD, BUT WE HAVE A S IG N IF IC A N T  NUMBER OF YOUNGSTERS THERE THAT ARE IN  BAD SH APE. TAKE THAT OUT. THAT NEED IN T E N SIV E  REM EDIATION, NEED SOME H ELP. IN ORDER TO DO THAT YOU MUST EXPAND THE PROGRAMS OPERATING IN GRADE EIGHT AND GRADE S I X  AND SEVEN .Q . CAN YOU DO THAT WITHOUT ADDITIONAL RESOURCES?A . NO.Q . THANK YO U.THE COURT: ANY FURTHER EXAMINATION?MR. FORCHi NO, YOUR HONOR.THE COURT: HELP THE DOCTOR DOWN. YOU ARE EXCUSED. YOU HAVE DONE NO A APPRECIABLE DAMAGE TO OUR SPEAKER SYSTEM . A . THANK YO U , YOUR HONOR.(W ITNESS DOWN.)T1IE COURT: CALL YOUR NEXT W ITN ESS.MR. MINCBERG: OUR NEXT W ITN ESS, YOUR HONOR, I S  MR. MELVIN LAW.THE COURT: MR. LAW, P L E A SE .(WITNESS SWORN.)MELVIN DOUGLAS LAW T E S T IF IE D  AS FOLLOWS:DIRECT EXAMINATIONBY MR. MINCBERG



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Q . MR. LAW; WOULD YOU STATE YOUR FULL NAME FOR THE RECORDPLEASE?A . MELVIN DOUGLAS LAW.
Q,  WHAT I S  YOUR OCCUPATION, HR. LAW?A . I  AM A RESEARCH CHEMIST AT MCGUIRE VETERANSADM INISTRATION H O SP IT A L.Q . DO YOU HAVE A PO SIT IO N  WITH THE RICHMOND BOARD OFEDUCATION?A . I  CURRENTLY SERVE AS CHAIRMAN OF THE RICHMOND SCHOOLBOARD.Q . HOW LONG HAVE YOU SERVED IN  THAT P O SIT IO N ?A . SIN C E  JU L Y  SECOND, 1 9 8 5 .Q . WERE YOU A MEMBER OF THE BOARD PRIOR TO BECOMINGCHAIRMAN?A . Y E S .Q . WHEN DID YOU BECOME A MEMBER OF THE BOARD?A . AUGUST 2 2 , 1 9 8 3 .Q . MR. LAW, PRIOR TO ACTUALLY COMING ON THE BOARD, DIDYOU HAVE ANY OTHER INVOLVEMENT IN THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOLS IN  THE PU B LIC EDUCATION IS S U E S ?A . Y E S .Q . CAN YOU D ESCRIBE THAT FOR U S?A . I  HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH MANY PARENT GROUPS SUCH ASP . T . A . ,  ORGANIZATIONS THAT WERE NOT DIRECTLYSCHOOL-RELATED, SUCH AS C IT IZ E N S  FOR PU B LIC SCH O OLS. I  HAVE



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SERVED AS PRESIDENT OF THE GINTER PARK P . T . A . ,  PRESIDENT OF THE RICHMOND COUNSEL OF P . T . A . * S ,  THE CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD FOR C IT IZ E N S  FOR PU B LIC SCH O O LS, AND I  HAVE SERVED ON A NUMBER OF ADVISORY COUNCILS AND TASK FORCES FOR THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOLS OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST 17 OR 18 YE A R S.Q . PRIOR TO ACTUALLY COMING ON BOARD, HR. LAW, IN VARIOUSOTHER SE R V IC E S AND INVOLVEMENT THAT YOU HAVE MENTIONED, WERE YOU INVOLVED IN  THE IS S U E  OF ADEQUACY OF FUNDING FOR THE RICHMOND P U B LIC  SCHOOLS?A . I  WAS.Q . CAN YOU D ESCRIBE THAT FOR U S?A . IN 1 9 7 7 ,  I  B E LIE V E  IT  WAS, I  TOOK THE PO SIT IO NPU B LICLY THAT WE CERTAINLY HEEDED MORE FUNDING FOR OUR SCHOOLS IN ORDER TO CARRY OUT PROGRAMS THAT WOULD ATTEND TO THE SP E C IA L  NEEDS OF OUR STUDENTS WHO COMPRISED A SP E C IA L  POPULATION.IN  1 9 8 0 ,  AS PRESIDENT OF THE RICHMOND COUNCIL OF P . T . A . ' S THE EXECUTIVE BOARD OF THAT GROUP CONSIDERED THE NEED FOR ADDITIONAL FUNDING AND INTERACTED WITH THE ADM INISTRATION AND THE SCHOOL BOARD IN TERMS OF THE P O S S IB IL IT Y  OF PERHAPS THE NEED FOR L IT IG A T IO N  ALONG THOSE L IN E S . AND IT  WAS OUR UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE WERE EFFORTS ON GOING TO SECURE ADDITIONAL FUNDING FOR THE PARTICULAR NEEDS OF OUR STUDENTS THROUGH AD M IN ISTRATIVE AND L E G IS L A T IV E  IN IT IA T IV E S . AND THAT L IT IG A T IO N  COULD BE COUNTER PRODUCTIVE



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GIVEN THE P O L IT IC A L  R EALITY OF THE EMOTIONAL NATURE OF THE L IT IG A T IO N .Q . AFTER YOU CAME ON BOARD DID YOU BECOME MORE DIRECTLYINVOLVED WITH THE EFFORTS OF THE BOARD TO SECURE ADDITIONAL STATE FUNDING?A . SOMEWHAT. THERE WAS A MEETING BETWEEN THE RICHMONDSCHOOL BOARD, I  THINK A BREAKFAST MEETING BETWEEN THE RICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD AND MEMBERS OF THE RICHMOND DELEGATION TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY TO MAKE KNOWN OUR NEEDS AND TO LAY BEFORE THEM OUR L E G IS L A T IV E  PACKAGE AND TO AGAIN G IV E  ATTENTION TO THE SP E C IA L  NEEDS THAT THE CHILDREN OF RICHMOND HAD. WE DID NOT R ECEIVE A LOT OF ENCOURAGEMENT AT THAT MEETING THAT THEY COULD BE SU CC E SSFU L. THERE WAS A REVIEW OF PREVIOUS ATTEMPTS TO RESOLVE THE PROBLEM THROUGH L E G IS L A T IV E  EFFO R TS, AND WE WERE TOLD THAT BECAUSE OF THE IMBALANCE OF POWER IN THE GENERAL ASSEM BLY, AND THAT IMBALANCE OF POKER BEING ON THE S ID E  OF THE RURAL D IV IS IO N , THE RURAL AREAS OF THE ST A TE , THAT IT  WAS NOT TOO LIK E L Y  THAT THE RICHMOND DELEGATION COULD P R E V A IL , THAT IT  WAS WORTH —  THEY APPRECIATED R ECEIV IN G  THE INFORMATION FROM U S , AND THERE WAS THE SUGGESTION THEN THAT THE ONLY REMEDY FOR US MIGHT BE L IT IG A T IO N .Q . NOW, MR. LAW, WHEN APPROXIMATELY THEN, WAS TH IS 1 9 8 3 ,AFTER YOU CAME ON THE BOARD?



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A . T H IS WOULD HAVE BEEN, I  B E L IE V E , JANUARY OF 1 9 8 4 .  ITHINK IT  WAS JANUARY OF ' 8 4 .  IT  WOULD HAVE BEEN IMMEDIATELY BEFORE THE S E SSIO N  OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY THAT YEAR CONVENED.Q . WHEN WAS THE CROSS CLAIM  FILE D  BY THE RICHMOND P U B LICSCHOOLS?A . MARCH OF 1 9 8 4 .Q .  AS CHAIRMAN OF THE RICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD, WHAT I S  THEBOARD SEEKING TO ACCOMPLISH THROUGH THE F IL IN G  OF IT S  CROSS CLAIM ?A . THE RICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD SEEKS TO SECURE THENECESSARY FIN AN CIAL RESOURCES TO OVERCOME THE PAST V IC T IM IZ A T IO N  OF ALL OF THE STUDENTS IN RICHMOND BY THE ST A TE . PAR TICU LARLY, THE V IC T IM IZ A T IO N  OF OUR BLACK STUDENTS. ALL CH ILD REN , ALL C IT IZ E N S  IN THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOL AREA, STUDENTS OF THE RICHMOND P U B LIC SCHOOL FA M ILY, C IT IZ E N S  OF THE C IT Y  ALL HAVE HAVE BEEN V IC T IM IZ E D  BY THE 250 YEARS OF STATE ACTION THAT FORCED PEOPLE TO L IV E  SEPARATELY, FORCED AN ATMOSPHERE OF B IT T E R N E SS, FORCED SEPARATIO N . THE RICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD FEELS THAT WE NEED FROM THE STATE THE NECESSARY FUNDING TO OVERCOME THE V E S T IG E S , AND V E ST IG E S HERE IN QUOTATION MARKS, COULD BE BITTER MEMORIES OF THE P A ST , SCARS OF THE P A ST , SP E C IA L  NEEDS, WHATEVER, ANY NUMBER OF TERMS. WE FEEL THAT T H IS IS  V IT A L , WE FEEL THAT A



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COMPREHENSIVE REMEDIAL PLAN THAT WE HAVE PRESENTED TO THE STATE NEEDS THE FIN AN CIAL SUPPORT. ALSO AN OUTCOME THAT IS  DESIRED I S  INCREASED INTEGRATION ON THE PART OF OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM IN  THAT I  AM PERSONALLY AWARE THAT WHITE CHILDREN W ILL OPT TO ATTEND BLACK SCHOOLS IF  THOLE SCHOOLS ARE PERCEIVED TO BE GOOD AND WHOLESOME.Q . MR. LAW, AFTER —  YOU DESCRIBED THE EARLIERPERCEPTIONS AND UNDERSTANDINGS OF RESPONSIVENESS OF STATE O F F IC IA L S  IN THE EARLY 1984 PE R IO D . HAS THERE BEEN ANY CHANGE IN THAT SIN C E  THEN?A . NO. THERE HAS BEEN NO CHANGE IN THEIR RESPONSIVENESSIN  A P O S IT IV E  SE N S E . ONE SLIG H T  CHANGE IN  THE N EG ATIVE, IN THAT STATE O F F IC IA L S  HAVE INDICATED THAT I F  THE RICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD PROCEDED WITH THE CROSS C LA IM , THAT WE MIGHT BE FACING A SIT U A T IO N  WHERE WE WOULD WIN THE BATTLE BUT LOSE THE WAR. IM PLYING THAT THE STATE HAD THE CAPACITY TO TAKE CERTAIN KINDS OF RETALIATORY AND R EPR ISA L ACTIONS AGAINST THE C I T Y ,  AND THAT THESE ACTIONS WOULD BE SO SUBTLE THAT MANY PERSONS WOULD NOT RECOGNIZE THAT THE ACTIONS WERE TAKEN.AND THAT WAS GIVEN  AS REASONS FOR RECONSIDERING THE PO SIT IO N  OF THE RICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD AND ALSO TO SEE I F  THE RICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD WOULD BE R ECEPTIVE TO THE IDEA OF WITH DRAWING THE CROSS CLA IM .THE COURT* CAN YOU BE A L IT T L E  MORE S P E C IF IC  AS TOWHO MADE THE F A IR LY  UNINTELLIGENT STATEMENT?



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A . IT  WAS SUPERINTENDENT DAVIS WHO MADE THE STATEMENTTHAT THE ACTIONS ON THE PART OF THE STATE COULD BE SO SUBTLE THAT THE COURT WOULD NOT RECOGNIZE THAT THESE WERE R EPR ISA L OR RETALIATORY A C T IO N S, AND THAT WAS IN RESPONSE TO MY VIEW THAT IT  WOULD BE UP TO THE COURT TO PROTECT THE SCHOOL BOARD AND THE C IT Y  FROM THE HEAVY HAND OF THE ST A T E . AND THAT RESPONSE WAS G IV E N . MY RESPONSE TO THAT WAS, IT  CERTAINLY WOULD BE UP TO THE SCHOOL BOARD AND C IT Y  O F F IC IA L S  TO POINT OUT TO THE COURT THOSE ACTIONS THAT WERE FELT TO BE OF A RETALIATORY OR R EPR ISA L NATURE.Q . f4R. LAW, YOU MENTIONED THE COMPREHENSIVE REMEDIALPLAN. DO YOU KNOW WHETHER AN OUTLINE OF THAT PLAN PRIOR TO IT S  FINAL PRESENTATION WAS FORWARDED TO STATE O F F IC IA L S  AT AN EARLIER POINT THAN THE BEGINNING OF T H IS T R IA L ?A . I  B E LIE V E  IN A P R IL  OF 1985 IN RESPONSE TO THE QUESTIONWHAT DOES THE SCHOOL BOARD WANT, AN OUTLINE OF OUR NEEDS WITH SOME COST ESTIMATES WAS PROVIDED TO THE ST A T E .Q . HAVE YOU EVER HAD ANY RESPONSE TO THAT THAT YOU AREAWARE OF?A . NO.Q . HR. LAW, HAS THE SCHOOL BOARD HAD A CHANCE TO REVIEWTHE COMPREHENSIVE REMEDIAL PLAN —A . Y E S .Q . —  IN IT S  FINAL FORM?A . Y E S .



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Q . AND WHAT —  WELL, YOU HAVE ANSWERED T H IS ALREADY. SOLET ME NOT. I  WAS ABOUT TO ASK WHAT O B JE C T IV E S THE BOARD SOUGHT TO ACCOM PLISH, BUT I  THINK YOU ANSWERED THAT ALREADY. LET ME ASK INSTEAD THE FOLLOWING Q U ESTIO N .I F  THE COMPREHENSIVE REMEDIAL PLAN I S  NOT ADOPTED, AND I F  ADDITIONAL S IG N IF IC A N T  IN IT IA L  FUNDING IS  NOT PROVIDED TO THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCH O OLS, DO YOU B E LIE V E  THAT S IG N IF IC A N T  IN IT IA L  PROGRESS CAN BE MADE AT ALLEVIATIN G THE V E ST IG E S OF SEGREGATION IN THE RICHMOND PU B LIC  SCHOOLS.A . I  DO NOT B E LIE V E  THE KIND OF PROGRESS THAT IS  NEEDEDTO G IV E  THE CHILDREN OF RICHMOND A FA IR  CHANCE TO COME TO THE SCHOOLS WITH SOME HOPE OF LEAVING THE SCHOOLS THE WHOLE PERSONS THEY COULD BE I F  THERE HAD BEEN NO STATE ACTION REQUIRING SEPARATIO N , I  DO NOT B E LIE V E  THAT TH IS CAN BE ACHIEVED WITHOUT ADEQUATELY-RESOURCED SCHOOLS F IN A N C IA L L Y .THE MONEY I S  NEEDED. AND I  MIGHT ADD IN VIEW OF PAST STATE ACTIONS THE REQUEST I S  NOMINAL AND REASONABLE, A VERY LOW PR ICE TO ASK OF THE STATE FOR R ECT IFYIN G  A PROBLEM OF SUCH MAGNITUDE.

CROSS-EXAM INATIONBY MR. FORCH:Q . YOU HAVE GIVEN  YOUR O PINION ON THE R E L IE F  PLAN. ARE



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YOU AN EDUCATOR?A . I  AH NOT AN EDUCATOR.Q . EVER BEEN A P R IN CIP A L OF A SCHOOL?A . NEVER.Q , YOU STATED THAT THE STATE WAS PROVIDED WITH A RESPONSEOF WHAT YOU NEEDED IN A P R IL  OF * 8 5 . WASN'T THAT A RESPONSE TO AH INTERROGATORY THAT THE STATE SERVED UPON YOU?A . IT  HAY WELL HAVE BEEN, MR. FORCH. CONCOMITANT WITHTHAT P O S S IB IL IT Y  WAS THE RHETORICAL QUESTION THAT CAME TO THE BOARD FROM SEVERAL STATE O F F IC IA L S , WHAT DOES THE RICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD WANT. AND MY KNOWLEDGE OF THE SU B M ISSIO N , THE PREPARATION AND SUBM ISSION  OF THAT OUTLINE WAS IN RESPONSE TO THAT. BUT I  VERY WELL RECOGNIZE IT  MAY ALSO HAVE BEEN IN RESPONSE TO AN INTERROGATORY.Q . SIN C E  YOU HAVE BEEN A MEMBER OF THE BOARD, IT  APPEARSONLY S I X  MONTHS BETWEEN THE TIME THAT YOU WERE A MEMBER OF THE BOARD AND THE TIME THE CROSS CLAIM WAS F IL E D  —A . THAT IS  CORRECT.Q . DID YOU EVER HAKE ANY EFFORT TO MEET WITH ANY OF THESTATE DEFENDANTS TO TELL THEM WHAT YOU S P E C IF IC A L L Y  NEEDED?A . I  D ID  NOT. AS I  STATED E A R L IE R , KNOWING THE —  THEONLY STATE O F F IC IA L S  I  HAD CONTACT WITH WERE MEMBERS OF THE RICHMOND DELEGATION TO THE GENERAL ASSEM BLY, WHICH INCLUDED SENATOR W ILLE Y , SENATOR WILDER AND THE OTHER PERSONS. WE SIM PLY COMMUNICATED TO THEM OUR CONTINUING NEED FOR



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ADDITIONAL FUNDING THAT WOULD ADDRESS THE S P E C IA L  NEEDS OF OUR STUDENTS, SP E C IA L  HEEDS OR V E ST IG E S OR WHATEVER.Q . DID YOU TELL THEM THAT YOU NEEDED MONEY TO DESEGREGATEOR TO OVERCOME THE PAST?A . NOT USING THOSE TERMS. WHEN ONE UNDERSTANDS THED ELICATE NATURE OF A REQUEST FROM A COMMUNITY L IK E  RICHMOND, WHERE THE PERCEPTION IS  THAT MUCH IS  WRONG WITH OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM S, OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM, RATHER, AND WHEN PERSONS FEEL THAT TO R A ISE  QUESTIONS WITH REGARD TO FURTHER DESEGREGATION AND OR TO ADDRESS THE SO -CALLED  LIN GERIN G EFFECTS OF THE PAST DUAL SCHOOL SYSTEM , IT  WAS CONSIDERED THAT WOULD NOT BE P O L IT IC A L L Y  SMART, THAT WE WOULD COUCH OR NEEDS IN TERMS OF LETTING THE MEMBERS OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY KNOW THAT OUR STUDENT POPULATION WAS D IFFE R E N T , THAT THE NEEDS OF THAT POPULATION WERE UNIQUE IN COMPARISON TO MOST OF THE SCHOOL D IV IS IO N S  IN THE ST A T E , AND THE SIM PLEST THING WAS WE NEEDED FUNDING TO ADDRESS THEIR SP E C IA L  NEEDS, THAT WE HAD SP E C IA L  PROBLEMS THAT WERE BROUGHT ON BY PAST A C T IO N S. WE WERE NOT S P E C IF IC  IN  TERMS OF USING THE LANGUAGE THAT YOU PROPOSE.Q . OKAY.NOW, DR. LAW, YOU STATED THAT YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH JA CK  D A V IS . CAN YOU RESTATE THAT CONVERSATION, PLEA SE? A . I  DID NOT STATE THAT I  HAD A CONVERSATION WITH JA CKD A V IS .Q . YOU OVERHEARD IT ?



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A . NO. THAT T H IS WAS SA ID  IN A M EETING. IT  WAS NOT ACONVERSATION PER S A Y . THERE WAS A MEETING OF SEVERAL PERSONS TO TRY TO REACH SOME ACCOMMODATION, AND IN THE COURSE OF THAT MEETING DR. IVvVIS WAS NOT REFERRING TO HE S P E C IF IC A L L Y , UNTIL I  ADDRESSED THE Q U ESTIO N , UNTIL I  MADE THE STATEMENT THAT IT  WOULD BE UP TO THE COURT TO PROTECT THE C IT Y  OF RICHMOND AND THE RICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD AGAINST ANY KIND OF SUBTLE ACTIONS ON THE PART OF THE STATE TO SO -CALLED  GET EVEN.Q . WHO WAS PRESENT AT THAT MEETING?A . SENATOR W ILLE Y, D R. L IT T L E , HARRISON JO N E S , KENNETHW HITE, ROY W EST, SENATOR W ILLE Y*S SECRETARY, AND I  BE LIE V E  A ID S FROM SENATOR W IL L E Y 'S  O F F IC E .Q . WAS THAT REMARK OF D R. D A V IS , WAS IT  MADE SO EVERYBODYAT THE TABLE COULD HEAR IT ?A . OH, Y E S .Q . NOTHING SECR ETIVE ABOUT IT ?A . OH, NO, NOT AT A L L .Q . DID  IT  APPEAR TO YOU DR. D AVIS WAS INTERESTED INTRYING TO FIND A RESOLUTION TO T O IS PROBLEM, WAS INTERESTED IN THE WELFARE OF THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOLS?A . NO, IT  DID  NOT APPEAR TO ME THAT HE WAS INTERESTED INRESOLVING THE PROBLEM OR TO DO ANYTHING TO HELP THE RICHMOND P U B LIC SCHOOLS.Q . WHY I S  THAT, S IR ?A . BECAUSE THERE WAS NOTHING ADVANCED THAT THE RICHMOND



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SCHOOL BOARD COULD CONSIDER THAT WOULD IN D ICA TE ANY KIND OF SUPPORT. THAT THE MEETING SIM PLY WAS DESIGNED TO GET THE RICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD TO WITHDRAW IT S  CROSS C L A IM . THERE WAS NOTHING OFFERED, THE STATEMENT WAS MADE THAT PERSONS THERE WERE NOT IN A P O SIT IO N  TO HAKE PROMISES THAT THEY COULD NOT K EEP. AND THE THRUST OF THE CONVERSATION CENTERED AROUND THE FACT THAT I F  WE PROCEDED, THAT THE BATTLE WOULD L IK E L Y  GET BLOODY, THAT IT  WOULD BE A SIT U A T IO N  WHERE WE MIGHT PREVAIL IN  COURT, BUT IF  WE DID P R E V A IL , WE MAY WIND UP HAVING A NET LOSS BECAUSE THERE WERE OTHER AR EA S, OTHER CA TE G O R IES,HIGHWAY FUNDS, OTHER CATEGORIES OF MONIES COMING INTO THE C IT Y  OF RICHMOND WHERE THE STATE HAD THE A B IL IT Y  TO MAKE DEDUCTIONS THAT WOULD OFFSET ANY ADDITIONAL MONIES THAT THE STATE WOULD BE REQUIRED TO PROVIDE TO THE SCHOOL SYSTEM .Q . YOU ARE AN IN TELLIGEN T MAN, YOU KNOW T H IS COURT CANPREVENT T H IS SORT OF THING?A . I  SA ID  SO IN THAT MEETING.Q . R IG H T .A . THAT THE COURT COULD PREVENT IT  AND THAT I  WASCONFIDENT THAT THE COURT COULD PREVENT I T .  AND DR. DAVIS SA ID  IN  DIRECT RESPONSE TO THAT, YOU SEEM TO BE VERY CONFIDENT IN THE A B IL IT Y  OF THE COURT TO DO THAT. AND I  SA ID  I  WAS. AND THAT I S  WHAT CAUSED THE STATEMENT ON H IS PART THAT THESE ACTIONS COULD BE SO SUBTLE THAT THE COURT HAY NOT



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EVEN RECOGNIZE THEM.AND UNDERSTANDING THAT THE COURT WOULD NOT N ECESSAR ILY FOLLOW T H IS ON A DAY BY DAY B A S I S , I  POINTED OUT TO HIM IT  CERTAINLY WOULD BE THE R E S P O N S IB IL IT Y  OF THE SCHOOL BOARD AND OR THE C IT Y  O F F IC IA L S  TO POINT OUT TO THE COURT THOSE ACTIONS THAT WERE BELIEVED  TO BE RETALITORY OR R EPR ISA L IN NATURE. I  STATED THAT VERY CLEAR LY.Q . DR. LAW, WASN'T JA C K  D AVIS TRYING TO FIND A SOLUTIONTO T H IS BLOOD BATH, TRYING TO PERSUADE YOU TO FIND A SOLUTION?A . LET ME CORRECT THE RECORD. I  AM NOT A DOCTOR. IWOULD ACCEPT THE T IT L E  IF  I  GOT THE SA LA R Y, BUT UNTIL I  GET PAID  CONCOMITANT WITH THE T IT L E , I  BETTER STRAIGHTEN THAT OUT FOR THE RECORD.MR. FORCH, BEFORE THE MEETING I  THOUGHT S O . BEFORE THE MEETING I  THOUGHT BASED ON NEWSPAPER ACCOUNTS OF WHAT WAS ALLEGEDLY SA ID  IN T H IS COURT WITH REGARD TO THE OCTOBER 11 MEETING BEING DESIGNED TO TRY TO REACH SOMEKIND OF SETTLEMENT, I  THOUGHT THE PURPOSE OF THAT MEETING WAS TO TRY TO REACH SOME AGREEMENT, SOME ACCOMMODATION THAT WOULD SOLVE THE PROBLEM, THAT WOULD PROVIDE A SOLUTION TO PROVIDE A B A SIS  FOR AGREEING TO SETTLE THE C A S E . IN MY O PIN IO N  THERE IS  A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SETTLEMENT AND TOTAL CAPITULATION BY THE RICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD. I  WAS NOT ABOUT TO COME FROM THAT MEETING SIM PLY AGREEING TO WITHDRAW THE CROSS CLAIM AND



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LEAVING THE NEEDS OF THESE CHILDREN OF T H IS C IT Y  UNMET. I  WAS NOT ABOUT TO DO THAT.I  UNDERSTAND THE IM PLICA TIO N S OF THE MAKE-UP OF THAT GROUP. I  UNDERSTAND THE UNSTATED PRESSURES AND ATMOSPHERE CREATED THERE. BUT MY R E S P O N S IB IL IT Y  IS  TO SECURE WHAT IS  BEST FOR OUR CHILDREN IR R E SP E C T IV E  OF ANY OTHER P O SSIB LE  CONSEQUENCES.Q . DR. LAW, YOU STATED THAT SOMEONE TOLD YOU THE BALANCEOF POWER IN  THE ASSEMBLY WAS ON THE POWER OF THE RURAL SCHOOLS?A . THE RURAL D IS T R IC T S .Q . OKAY.A . Y E S .Q . ARE YOU FAM ILIAR WITH THE REMEDIAL EDUCATION MONEYTHAT IS  APPROPRIATED EACH YEAR BY THE ASSEMBLY?A . GENERALLY I  KNOW THERE IS  APPR O PR IATIO N . I  AM NOTFAM ILIAR WITH THE S P E C IF IC S  THERE.Q . ARE YOU FAM ILIAR THAT THE GREAT COURSE OF THAT MONEYGOES TO THE C IT I E S  L IK E  YOURS AND VERY L IT T L E  GOES TO CO U N TIES?A . MR. FORCH, I  AM AWARE THAT THERE ARE SP E CIA LCATEGORICAL FUNDS THAT COME INTO THE C IT Y  OF RICHMOND AND OTHER L O C A L IT IE S  FOR STUDENTS WHO HAVE SP E C IA L  NEEDS, SP E CIA L EDUCATION NEEDS, AND THOSE NEEDS ARE FACTORS THAT SPEAK TO SOMETIMES CONDITIONS OF ACCIDENTS IN  DEVELOPMENT, WHATEVER,



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HAS TO DO WITH FACTORS THAT DON'T EMINATE FROM PAST STATE ACTIONS SUCH AS EMOTIONALLY DISTURBED CH ILD REN , MENTALLY RETARDED, WHAT NOT.SOME EMOTIONALLY DISTURBED CHILDREN PROBABLY ARE V IC T IM S , SOME EMOTIONALLY DISTURBED CHILDREN ARE V IC T IM S OF PAST STATE A C T IO N S, BUT THE THRUST OF THAT PROGRAM I S  TO PROVIDE MONEY FOR SO -CALLED  S P E C IA L  EDUCATION CATEGORIES AS DEFINED BY THE PU B LIC LAW 9 4 - 1 4 2 . TO SOME EXTENT —Q . MR. —A . WHEN IT  COMES TO THE B A S IC  A ID , WHEN IT  COMES TO THEMONEY THAT IS  TO 3E USED BY ALL OF THE CHILDREN OF RICHMOND, THE STATE FALLS FAR SHORT OF WHAT IT  G IV E S  TO OTHER L O C A L IT IE S . IN  FINANCING THE SURROUNDING —Q . THE B A S IC  A ID  MONEY?A . Y E S .Q . NOW, WHAT I  AM TRYING TO FOCUS ON I S  NOT THE SP E C IA LEDUCATION MONEY BUT THE REMEDIAL EDUCATION MONEY THAT I S  SET A SID E  FOR SP E C IA L  NEEDS OF C I T I E S .  NOW, WHAT I  WANT TO KNOW I S  IF  YOU ARE AWARE THAT THAT HONEY PREDOMINANTLY GOES TO C IT I E S  L IK E  YOURS AND VERY L IT T L E  OF IT  GOES TO COU N TIES?A . MR. FORCH, I  AM NOT AWARE OF THAT. AND I F  I  WEREAWARE OF THAT, IT  WOULD NOT' CHANGE THE STATEMENT THAT WAS MADE THAT TO GET THE FUNDS THAT RICHMOND NEEDS THROUGH THE L E G IS L A T IV E  PROCESS WAS NOT VERY L IK E L Y  BECAUSE OF THE BALANCE OF POWER IN THE ST A T E . THAT STATEMENT WAS MADE



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IR R E SP E C T IV E  OF HOW MONEY I S  G IV E N .Q . ARE YOU AWARE JA CK  D A VIS HAS BEEN A MAJOR PROPONENT OFTHE REMEDIAL EDUCATION FUNDS?A . NO.Q . OKAY.I S N 'T  IT  YOUR VIEW EVERY BLACK CH ILD  IN THE RICHMONDPU B LIC SCHOOL IS  SUFFERING THESE V E ST IG E S OF HAUNTED PAST MEMORIES AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE.A . IN  MY VIEV7 EVERY BLACK CH ILD  SUFFERS FROM THE V E ST IG E SOF PAST D EFE CT S. IT  IS  MY VIEW EVERY BLACK CH ILD  BEARS SOME S C A R S , SOME PAINFUL MEMORIES. NOT ONLY THE CHILDREN, THE PARENTS OF THE CH ILD REN .SOME BLACK CHILDREN TO A GREATER DEGREE THAN OTHER BLACK CH ILD REN . SOME BLACK CHILDREN ARE ACH IEVIN G TO A GREATER DEGREE THAN OTHER BLACK CH ILD REN . SOME PARENTS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PROVIDE THE KIND OF LEADERSHIP THAT COMPENSATES FOR SOME OF THE PAST DEFECTS OF THE PAST DUAL SCHOOL SYSTEM , AND THE SCHOOL SYSTEM HAS BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT. BUT WHATEVER O P T IM IS T IC  CONCLUSIONS YOU MAY WANT TO DRAW FROM THAT, MERELY SPEAK TO WHAT IS  P O SSIB L E  AND REALLY HIGHLIGHTS HC*,’ MUCH MORE COULD BE DONE I F  WE HAD ADEQUATELY RESOURCED SCHOOLS TO CONTINUE WHAT HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED TO BE D E SIR A B LE . I F  WE COULD R EPLICATE SOME OF THESE E XCE PT IO N S, AND I  WOULD NOT SAY TO YOU THAT EVERY BLACK CH ILD  HAS BEEN —  BRINGS TO THE SCHOOL SETTING THE SAME D IS A B IL IT Y  BROUGHT ABOUT BY THE



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ST A T E , BUT EVERY BLACK CH ILD  BRINGS SOME.Q . SO EVEN I F  THE BLACK KID  THAT IS  PERFORMING WELL,GOING ON TO IV Y  LEAGUE, HE ALSO HAS BEEN MARKED AND SUFFERING THESE V E S T IG E S ?A . Y E S .Q . SAME P R IN C IP A L S , SOME TEACHERS, SOME ADM INISTRATORS.A . MR. FORCE,  I  MIGHT ADD THAT WHITE CHILDREN HAVE ALSOBEEN V IC T IM IZ E D , BUT TO A LESSER  DEGREE. I  B E LIE V E  THE STATE HAS V IC T IM IZ E D  IT S  PEO PLE. THE EFFORTS THE STATE MADE TO FORCE SEPARATIO N , TO FORCE B IT T E R N E SS, TO SAY TO PEOPLE IT  IS  UNLAWFUL, YOU SHALL NOT GET ALONG YOU SHALL NOT L IK E  ONE ANOTHER YOU SHALL NOT PER CEIVE —  YOU SHALL NOT PERCEIVE ONE ANOTHER AS PERSONS OF EQUAL WORTH. THERE I S  NO ESCAPE OF THAT. WE HAVE ALL BEEN V IC T IM IZ E D . SOME TO A GREATER DEGREE THAN OTHERS. BLACK CHILDREN HAVE HAD TO BEAR THE BURDEN OF BEING BLACK AND PERCEIVED TO BE OF LE SS WORTU. THAT HAS EXASCERBATED THE PROBLEM. AND IT  APPEARS TO ME THAT THE CONTINUING V E ST IG E S ARE SPOKEN TO BY THE CONTINUING RECALCITRANCE ON THE PART OF THE STATE TO RECOGNIZE WHA*£ IT  HAS DONE TO IT S  PEO PLE.Q . MR. LAW, ARE YOU FAM ILIAR WITH SOME OF THE HOUSINGPROJECTS IN THE C IT Y  SUCH AS G IL P IN  COURT AND F A IR F IE L D ?A . Y E S .Q . ARE THERE ANY FACTORS THAT GO ON IN THOSE HOUSINGPROJECTS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO THESE SCARS THAT YOU HAVE



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D ESCRIBED?A . ABSOLUTELY. WE RECOGNIZE THAT CERTAIN KINDS OFBEHAVIORS WITHOUT QUESTION REFLECT IN A VARIOUS REAL WAY THE V E ST IG E S OF PAST D ISC R IM IN A T IO N . THE EFFECTS OF PAST D ISCR IM IN A T IO N  ON —  A G A IN , YOU JU S T  CANNOT IN F L IC T  FOR SO MANY YEARS A SYSTEM THAT SPEAKS TO WRONG DOING AND EXCEPT THE C IT IZ E N S  TO COME AWAY FROM THAT SUDDENLY COLD SIM PLY BECAUSE CERTAIN KINDS OF ACTIONS OCCURRED IN 1970 OR 1 9 7 2 . THERE IS  A CONTINUING NEED TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM, TO ADDRESS, TO ATTEMPT TO ADDRESS IT  IN A MORE E FFECTIVE WAY THAN HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO WITH THE MEAGER RESOURCES THAT WE HAVE BEEN PROVIDED.Q . MR. LAW, I  AM A S K IN G , ARE THERE ANY FACTORS IN  THOSEHOUSING PROJECTS THAT YOU FEEL HAVE ADVERSELY IMPACTED UPON THE CHILDREN COMING FROM THEM EDUCATIONALLY?A . SU R E.Q . WHAT ARE THOSE?A . FACTORS OF NON EMPLOYMENT ON THE PART OF PARENTS OFTHE CH ILD REN , FACTORS SUCH AS UNDER EMPLOYMENT, FACTORS SUCH AS THE PARENTS BEING UNDER EDUCATED, PARENTS WHO HAVE BEEN DROP OUTS, WHO ARE DROP OUTS FROM THE SCHOOL SYSTEM , PARENTS WHO FOR WHATEVER REASON OR WHATEVER PERIOD IN  THEIR L IV E S  FEEL THAT TO FOLLOW A CERTAIN LIN E  OF BEHAVIOR IS  PREFERABLE TO ADOPTING A VALUE SYSTEM THAT SPEAKS TO THE BEST THAT ISWITHIN THEM



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AND, MR. PORCH, THESE OTHER FACTORS ARE D IRECTLY RELATED TO THE PAST ACTIONS ON THE PART OF T H IS ST A T E . WE CAN TICK  OFF A THOUSAND FACTO RS. THERE I S  NO ESCAPING THEIR RELATIONSH IP BETWEEN THE BEHAVIOR OF CERTAIN STUDENTS AND CERTAIN PARENTS TO THE PAST ACTIONS ON THE PART OF THE ST A TE . Q . BROKEN HOMES?A . BROKEN HOMES.Q . YOUR EXPLANATION I S  THAT HAS ALL BEEN CAUSED BY THEPRIOR DUAL SCHOOL SYSTEM?A . BROKEN HOMES IS  NOT ONE OF THE FACTORS THAT I  L IS T E D .I  AGREED THAT COULD BE A FACTOR. Y E S , WHEN YOU CONSIDER THATTHE ATMOSPHERE IN A HOME IS  CERTAINLY AFFECTED BY THE LEVEL OF EMPLOYMENT, THE A B IL IT Y  TO GET A JO B . YOU CA N 'T  MISEDUCATE PEOPLE AND UNDER EDUCATE PEOPLE AND EXPECT THEM TO COME OUT E X H IB IT IN G  THE SAME VALUES AND THE SAME A B IL IT IE S  AS PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD A FA IR  CHANCE TO BE EDUCATED AND A FA IR  CHANCE TO NOT HAVE FEELIN G S OF IN F E R IO R IT Y  AND NOT HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT EVERY TIME THEY TURN IN WHATEVER THEY DO. IN  JU S T  THE COURSE OF NORMAL L IV IN G  THERE ARE ALWAYS THE CONSTANT REMINDERS.Q . MR. LAW, —A . Y E S .Q . I  AM SO RRY, ARE YOU F IN ISH E D ?A . I  R E A LIZE  I  HAVE A TENDENCY TO RAMBLE.Q . THESE CHILDREN COMING FROM THE HOUSING P R O JE C T S , ARE



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THEY ENCOUNTERING ANY ADVERSE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS SUCH AS CRIME AND DRUG CULTURE THAT HAS AN IMPACT UPON THEIR EDUCATION?A . ABSOLUTELY.NO QUESTION ABOUT I T .C R IM E , THE DRUG CULTURE, WHATEVER FACTOR YOU NAME IT  I S  MADE WORSE, IT  IS  ABSOLUTELY, BY THE FACT THAT THE PEOPLE HAVE SE LF IMAGE PROBLEMS. I  RECOGNIZE T H IS IS  NOT CONFINED TO BLACK CHILDREN OR BLACK PARENTS ONLY. AND I  AM NOT CERTAIN TO WHAT EXTENT ONE CAN MAKE ANY D IFFER EN T IA T IO N S IN TERMS OF HOW MUCH OF A R ELATIO N SH IP T H IS H AS, BUT, OF COURSE, CRIME AND THE DRUG CULTURE AND THE OVERALL REGARD FOR OR DISREGARD FOR A VALUE SYSTEM THAT SPEAKS TO THE BEST THAT IS  WITHIN U S . ALL OF THESE THINGS HAVE BEEN AFFECTED AND INFLUENCED BY PAST STATE A C T IO N S.Q . WHAT ABOUT ADOLESCENT PREGNANCIES?A . ADD THAT TO THE L I S T .Q . YOU WOULD ATTRIBUTE ALL OF T H IS TO THE OLDSEGREGATION?A . MR. FORCH, THERE IS  NO QUESTION THAT IF  WE COULD HAVEEDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS THAT WOULD ALLOW YOUNG PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THE CONSEQUENCES OF TH EIR ACTIONS THAT WE COULD CUT DOWN ON THESE KINDS OF T H IN G S. IT  I S  WELL KNCXfN THAT THE ONE THING PEOPLE WILL DO I F  THEY C A N 'T  DO ANYTHING ELSE IS  REPRODUCE THEMSELVES. TO SAY THAT THE STATE ACTION IS



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RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT PHENOMINA WOULD BE GOING A B IT  FA R , BUT TO SPEAK TO THE IR R ESPO N SIB LE WAY OR THE DETRIMENTAL WAY PEOPLE BEHAVE AND BRING CHILDREN INTO THE WORLD IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE THE A B IL IT Y  TO CARE FOR THOSE CHILDREN NOR EVEN TO KNOW WHAT THEY SHOULD DO FOR THE CH ILD REN , T H IS CAN BE RELATED TO PAST ACTIONS ON THE PART OF THE ST A TE.Q . CAN BE RELATED OR IS  RELATED?A . I S .Q . E XCLU SIV E LY ?I S  THAT YOUR TESTIMONY?A . E XCLU SIV E LY ?Q . Y E S .A . NO.Q . MR. LAW, ARE ALL OF THESE CONDITIONS THAT YOU HAVEID E N T IF IE D  IN  SOME FASH IO N , THE S O C IA L , THE FA M ILY, THE PSYCH O LO GICAL, THE EMOTIONAL IS  IN  SOME FASHION BEING ADDRESSED BY THE RICHMOND P U B LIC  SCHOOLS TODAY?A . IN SOME FA SH IO N . WE HAVE A SCHOOL WHERE PREGNANTSTUDENTS ARE ALLOWED TO ATTEND AND TO R ECEIV E  INSTRUCTION TO OVERCOME SOME OF THE D E F IC IE N C IE S . THERE ARE OTHER AREAS WHERE THE PROBLEMS ARE BEING ADDRESSED, BUT NOT NEARLY ENOUGH. WE HAVE SOME VERY FIN E PROGRAMS. WE SPEAK TO OUR AWARENESS OF MANY OF THE PROBLEMS. WE ARE NOT LOOKING IN S E N S IT IV IT Y  IN  TERMS OF MEETING THE PROBLEMS, WE ARE LACKING



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FUNDS.Q . MR. LAW, DO THOSE TYPE OF EFFECTS THAT YOU D ESCR IBED ,SUCH AS PREGNANCY, DRUG USE AND CR IM E , DOES IT  OCCUR WITH MORE FREQUENCY AMONG BLACKS IN A HOUSING PROJECT THAN AMONG BLACKS IN OTHER NEIGHBORHOODS?A . MR. FORCH, I  REALLY DON'T KNOW THAT TO BE TRUE. IWOULD NOT BE SURPRISED  I F  THAT IS  TRUE.Q . MR. LAW, I  WANT TO READ INTO THE RECORD A PART OF YOURD E P O SIT IO N . COUNSEL, IT  IS  AT PAGE 12 LIN E  2 ON A DIFFERENT MATTER. I  WAS ASKING YOU WHY I S  THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE ELEMENTARY GOALS AND SECONDARY GOALS FOR AHIEVING SCO R E S.YOU STATED THAT GENERALLY STUDENTS, T H IS IS  YOUR TESTIM ONY, GENERALLY STUDENTS AT SECONDARY LEVEL NATURALLY SCORE SOMEWHAT LOWER ON NATIONAL TESTS THAN STUDENTS IN THE ELEMENTARY L E V E L . THAT IS  JU S T  A NATURAL PHENOMINA. DO YOU REMEMBER SAYING THAT?A . Y E S .Q . ONE FINAL MATTER TO TAKE UP WITH YOU, MR. LAW. JU D G E ,WITH YOUR INDULGENCE IT  EXCEEDS THE SCOPE OF D IR E C T , BUT I  WOULD L IK E  TO TALK ABOUT PLAN G . ,  THE BUSING PLAN.MR. LAW, I  UNDERSTAND THAT YOU HAVE DIRECTED THE ADMINISTRATION TO STUDY THAT WHOLE PLAN, I S  THAT CORRECT?A . Y E S .Q . WHAT D IR ECTIO N S DID YOU G IV E  THE ADM INISTRATION?



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A . GENERALLY THAT THE PLAN NEEDED TO BE EVALUATED INTERMS OF WHETHER OR NOT IT  I S  COST E F F E C T IV E , IT  NEEDED TO BE EVALUATED IN TERMS OF WHETHER OR NOT IT  IS  MEETING THE EDUCATIONAL NEEDS OF OUR STUDENTS TODAY. THE PLAN HAS BEEN IN  EFFECT ABOUT, I  B E LIE V E  T H IS IS  THE 6TH YEAR. THERE WAS NOT AN EVALUATION COMPONENT B U ILT  INTO I T ,  INTO THE PLAN, AT THE TIME IT  WAS ADOPTED. CONSISTENT WITH OUR D ESIR E  TO EVALUATE PROGRAMS ON A CONTINUING B A SIS  TO MAKE SURE THAT, ONE, THEY ARE MEETING THE NEEDS OF THE STUDENTS, AND THAT THE COSTS ARE NOT OUT OF LIN E  IN TERMS OF WHAT WE HAVE A RIGHT TO EXPECT.Q . IT  I S  YOUR RECOLLECTION T H IS PLAN G . ,  THECONSOLIDATION OF THESE SCHOOLS HAVE BEEN STUDIED AT ALL SIN CE  T H IS CURRENT D IRECTION OF THE ADM INISTRATION?A . T H IS IS  MY —Q . DO YOU KNOW WHETHER IT  HAS BEEN STUD IED ?A . Y E S .Q . HAS IT  BEEN EVALUATED IN TERMS OF IT S  COSTE FFECT IVE N ESS?A . MR. FORCH, I  RECEIVED A REPORT ON THAT FROM, A REPORTON THE TEAM THAT I S  LOOKING INTO THAT, AND I  HAVE TO CONFESS TO YOU THAT I  HAVE NOT READ THAT WITH ANY GREAT D E T A IL .SIM PLY KNOW THAT WE DO HAVE THE RIGHT REPORT. I  DON'T KNCW WHAT IS  CONTAINED IN I T .  AND I  REALLY C A N 'T  ANSWER THAT.Q . ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE REPORT THAT WAS MENTIONED IN



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T H IS HORNING’ S NEWSPAPER?A . I  AM NOT FAM ILIAR WITH WHAT IS  IN TH IS MORNING’ SNEWSPAPER.Q . T H IS MORNING’ S NEWSPAPER REFERS TO A SUBCOMMITTEE OFAN ADVISORY COMMISSION STUDYING P U PIL TRANSPORTATION FOR THE SCHOOL BOARD. ARE YOU FAM ILIAR WITH THAT COM MISSION?A . Y E S .Q . AND THE PAPER SAYS THAT THE SUBCOMMITTEE REPORT STATESTHAT PLAN G . SHOULD BE D ISCO N TIN UED . ARE YOU AWARE OF THAT? A . NO. I  HAVE NOT READ TO D A Y'S PAPER. AND A REPORT THATI  AM REFERRING TO DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE PARENT —  TO THAT COMMISSION REPORT. THE REPORT I  AM REFERRING TO I S  A REPORT PROVIDED TO THE SCHOOL BOARD BY DR. JO N ES WHERE HER STAFF I S  CONDUCTING AN EVALUATION INDEPENDENT OF THAT GROUP. THAT IS  THE REPORT THAT I  AM REFERRING TO . I  WAS NOT AWARE OF THE A R TICLE IN TODAY’ S PAPER. I  DON'T READ THE MORNING PAPER.Q , ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY NEGATIVE COMMUNITY ACTIONS TO THEOPERATION OF PLAN G . ?A . NEGATIVE COMMUNITY REACTION?MR. MINCBERG: LET ME OBJECT TO THE HEARSAY.THE COURT: I  WAS ABOUT TO S A Y , WHAT I S  RELEVANT?MR. MINCBERG: AND ALSO RELEVANCE.THE COURT: THAT I S  THE BEST PART OF YOUR O B JE C T IO N . MR. MINCBERG: THANK, YOU, YOUR HONOR.



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MR. FORCH: AS TO THE HEARSAY —THE COURT: I  AM NOT WORRIED ABOUT THAT. WHAT ISRELEVANT ABOUT I T ./MR. FORCH: WE ARE TALKING ABOUT COMMUNITY PER CEPTIO N , AND WE HAVE HEARD TESTIMONY HERE THERE IS  A COMMUNITY PERCEPTION THE RICHMOND P U B LIC  SCHOOLS BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK ARE IN F E R IO R , BUT THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT AFFECT PERCEPTIO N . IT  HAY BY A PERCEPTION OF THE WAY THE SCHOOLS ARE RUN, THE WAY THEY ARE ORGANIZED.THE COURT: I  AM A S K IN G , WHAT IS  MATERIAL ABOUT THE PLAN G . ? WHAT I S  RELEVANT TO THE IS S U E  BEFORE T H IS COURT?MR. FORCIl: JU D G E , THE OPERATION OF PLAN G . ,  AND WE WILL HOPE TO BRING TH IS OUT LATER , BUT THE WAY THOSE SCHOOLS ARE ORGANIZED I S  GOING TO HAVE SOME IMPACT ON THE STUDENTS ID E N T IF IC A T IO N  WITH THE SCHOOL, PARENTAL COMMITMENT TO THE SCHOOL AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE.THE COURT: ALL R IG H T .A . WOULD YOU REPEAT THE QUESTION?Q . ARE YOU AWARE OR KNOWLEDGEABLE OF ANY COMMUNITYREACTION NEGATIVELY TO THE WAY YOU HAVE ORGANIZED THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOLS?A . I  AM AWARE THAT THERE ARE PERSONS IN THE COMMUNITY WHOB E LIE V E  THAT IT  I S  NOT THE BEST PLAN. I  HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT PROBABLY —  EXCUSE ME.IT  IS  MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE ARE SELECTED



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PROFESSIONAL EDUCATORS MORE UPSET ABOUT PLAN G . THAN PEOPLE IN  THE COMMUNITY.MOST PEOPLE IN H IE  COMMUNITY BASED UPON WHAT I  HAVE HEARD COULD NOT CARE LE SS WHETHER WE HAVE PLAN G . OR WE D O N 'T . WHEN THE PLAN WAS F IR S T  IMPLEMENTED, AS IS  THE CASE WITH MANY NEW PROGRAMS, THERE WERE MANY PERSONS D ISC U SS IN G  THE PROS AND THE CONS OF SUCH A PLAN. I  WOULD HAVE TO SAY TO YOU BASED ON THE LATEST INFORMATION THAT I  HAVE WITH REGARD TO COMMUNITY PERCEPTIONS THAT THE COMMUNITY PERHAPS IS  ACCUSTOMED TO PLAN G . ,  IT  IS  WHAT WE NOW HAVE, THE STUDENTS IN THE SCHOOLS WHO ARE GOING TO SCHOOL UNDER PLAN G . DON’ T KNOW ANYTHING E L S E . AND THAT THERE I S  A WIDER ACCEPTANCE OF PLAN G . TODAY THAN AT THE TIME IT  WAS PREVIOUSLY IMPLEMENTED.TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, NOT MANY PEOPLE IN THE PU B LIC TALK ABOUT PLAN G . PER S A Y . IT  I S  AN ACCOMPLISHED CHANGE.THE PERSONS WHO TALK MOST ABOUT IT  ARE THE TEN TO 12 PERSONS WHO ARE OUR EMPLOYEES WHO FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER HAVE AN OBSESSION  WITH PLAN G .Q . THANK YOU.THE COURT: ANY RED IR ECT?MR. MINCBERG: NO, YOUR HONOR.THE COURT: MR. LAV,', I  HAVE ONE, BECAUSE I  WAS VERY INTERESTED IN  YOUR TESTIM ONY, AS I  AM EVERY W ITN ESSES.I  AM SURE YOU DON’ T WANT THE COURT TO BE LEFT UNDER



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ANY FALSE IM P R E SSIO N S, EVEN UNINTENTIONALLY. I  HAVE NO DOUBT YOU WOULD NOT DO IT  INTEN TION ALLY. WOULD IT  BE FA IR  FOR ME —  WELL, LET ME, L IK E  YOU, I  HAVE A TENDENCY TO RAMBLE —  I  DID NOT NOTICE YOURS, BUT YOU ADMITTED I T .IN  REFERENCE TO THE STATEMENT BY MR. D A V IS , I  SHOULD PREFACE MY FURTHER REMARKS BY TELLIN G YOU, I F  MADE IN A THREATENING ATMOSPHERE I  THINK IT  WAS VERY FOOLISH AND VERY UNINTELLIGENT AND F R U IT L E S S , BECAUSE T H IS COURT FOREWARNED I S  FOREARMED. BUT YOU WERE HAVING A MEETING W ITH, AS I  UNDERSTAND I T ,  SENATOR W ILLE Y , SENATOR W ILDER, WHOM I  —A . SENATOR WILDER WAS NOT PRESENT.THE COURT: NOT. I  AM SORRY. SENATOR W ILLEY, MAYOR WEST, DR. JO N ES AND SENATOR W IL L E Y 'S  SECRETARY AND SOMEBODY FROM H IS ST A F F .A . AND MR. KENNETH W HITE, WHO WAS PRESIDENT OF THE STATEBOARD OF EDUCATION.THE COURT: AND MR. W HITE. ALL R IG H T .IT  OCCURS TO ME THAT AS MUCH INTEREST AS EACH OF THOSE IN D IV ID U A LS MAY HAVE HAD, AND I  WOULD L IK E  TO THINK HAVE IN THE RICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD PROBLEMS, THE EDUCATION OF CHILDREN IN  RICHMOND, THEY ALL HAVE DUAL R E S P O N S IB IL IT IE S , I S  THAT A F A IR  STATEMENT? SENATOR W IL L E Y 'S  GOES BEYOND JU S T  THECHILDREN.A . SU R E.A MAYOR WEST AND MR. D A V IS , AND SO FORTH



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WOULD IT  BE JU S T  AS REASONABLE TO INTERPRET THAT REMARK IN  THE CONTEXT OF SOMEBODY EXPRESSING THE FACTS OF P O L IT IC A L  L IF E  AS THEY VIEW IT  AS D IST IN G U ISH ED  FROM A THREAT?A . YOUR HONOR, I  THINK THAT WOULD BE F A IR . I  HAVE TO SAYTHAT I  DID NOT VIEW THE COMMENTS TO BE THREATS. I F  I  GAVE THAT IM PRESSION —THE COURT: I  WANTED TO BE SURE THAT WAS NOT —A . R IG H T .THE STATEMENT WAS —  IT  WAS —  THE STATEMENT WAS CONVEYED VERY CLEA R LY, AND I  MIGHT ADD THAT OTHER PERSONS HAD A VIEW SIM ILA R  TO D R. D A V IS , OTHER PERSONS PRESENT AT THAT MEETING CONCURRED THAT T H IS MIGHT BE A MEMBER. I  WOULD AGREE THAT IT  WAS A RECOGNITION OF P O L IT IC A L  R E A L IT IE S  AND SOME OF THE PROBLEMS THAT THE STATE HAD TO —  THAT THESE O F F IC IA L S  HAD TO CONSIDER IN TERMS OF SO -CALLED  S L IC IN G  UP THE P I E .THE ANALOGY WAS MADE THAT THERE ARE ONLY SO MANY DOLLARS AND I F  WE TAKE DOLLARS FROM T H IS PLACE TO G IV E  IT  TO RICHMOND, SOMEBODY I S  GOING TO BE UPSET ABOUT THAT, AND THERE WAS THE GENERAL FEELING THAT THE COURT REALLY WAS LIM IT ED  IN  IT S  A B IL IT Y  TO ORDER THE LEGISLATU RE TO VOTE IN ANY PARTICULAR WAY, AND THAT WE NEEDED TO RECOGNIZE THAT.I  HAVE TO G IV E  THE PERSONS PRESENT BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT TO SAY THAT EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE VERY INTENSELY INTERESTED IN  MY CONCURING TO WITHDRAW THE CROSS CLA IM , IT



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WAS STATED VERY CLEARLY AND VERY R E P E T IT IV E L Y , THAT WE HAD TO RECOGNIZE THAT THERE COULD BE SOME UNDESIRABLE CONSEQUENCES.THE COURT: ALL R IG H T . WELL, I  THINK I  UNDERSTAND IT  BETTER NOW. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. DID THE CO U R T'S QUESTIONS PROMPT FURTHER IN Q U IR Y? I F  NOT, YOU MAY BE EXCUSED. THANK YO U , S I R . (WITNESS DOWN.)THE COURTj THE COURT W ILL TAKE A ONE HOUR R E C E S S .(A r e c e s s  was t a k e n .)THE COURT* ALL R IG H T , S I R ,  CALL YOUR NEXT W ITN ESS.REALLY L E T 'S  MOVE ALONG. T H IS IS  GOING MUCH MUCH TOO SLOW. WE HAVE GOT TOO MUCH WORK TO DO. HALF OF ALL YOU HAD TO DO WAS SAY LOOK AT THE E X H IB IT , JU D G E . YOU DON'T HAVE TO ASK ANYBODY I F  IT  DOESN 'T SAY WHAT IT  S A Y S .MR. W ILLIA M S; I  W ILL MAKE SURE I  FOLLOW THAT PO LICY T H IS T IM E . DEFENDANTS NEXT E X H IB IT  I S  DR. ROBERT C R A IN .THE COURT* I  GUESS I  GOT TO YOU ANYWAY• ALL R IG H T .(WITNESS SW ORN.)ROBERT L .  CRAIN T E S T IF IE D  AS FOLLOWS:D IRECT EXAMINATIONTHE COURT* I  HOPE YOU ARE FAM ILIAR WITH THE LOCAL RULE THAT REQUIRES COUNSEL REMOVE ALL E X H IB IT S WITHIN 30 DAYS AFTER THE CASE IS  OVER UNLESS AN APPEAL I S  TAKEN. I  EXPECT YOU TO L IV E  UP TO THAT.MR. W ILLIA M S: WE W IL L . I  WAS NOT AWARE OF I T .



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THE COURT* I  THOUGHT THE WITNESS MIGHT BE MORE COMFORTABLE IF  HE KNEW HE WOULD GET YOU WAY FROM HERE AT LEAST 30 DAYS AFTER IT  IS  OVER.BY MR. W ILLIA M S:Q . WOULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD?A . ROBERT C R A IN .Q . WHERE DO YOU R E SID E ?A . NEW JE R S E Y .Q . WHAT IS  YOUR PRESENT PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT?A . I  WORK AT TEACHERS CO LLEG E, COLUMBIA U N IV E R S IT Y .Q . WOULD YOU DESCRIBE YOUR FUNCTION THERE AT TEACHERSCOLLEGE?A . I  AM A PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY AND EDUCATION.Q . HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN EMPLOYED THERE?A . JU S T  THREE MONTHS.Q . WHERE WERE YOU PREVIOUSLY EMPLOYED?A . I  WAS SE N IO R , I  AM SO RRY, P R IN CIP A L RESEARCH S C IE N T IS TAT THE CENTER FOR THE SO CIA L ORGANIZATION OF SCHOOLS AT JOHNS HOPKINS U N IV E R S IT Y . AND I  WAS ALSO SENIOR SO CIA L S C IE N T IS T  AT THE RAND CORPORATION IN WASHINGTON, D . C .Q . HOW LONG HAD YOU BEEN EMPLOYED AT THE CENTER FORSO CIA L ORGANIZATION OF SCHOOLS?A . SIN C E  19 —  S I X  YE A R S.Q . HOW LONG WERE YOU EMPLOYED AT THE RAND CORPORATION?A . TEN YEAR S.



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Q . WOULD YOU STATE YOUR EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND?A . I  HAVE A BACHELOR'S DEGREE IN MATHEMATICS AND ADOCTORS DEGREE IN SC IO L O G Y .Q . NOW, DR* C R A IN , HAVE YOU STUDIED THE EFFECTS OFSEGREGATION AND DESEGREGATION UPON BLACKS AND UPON W HITES?A . Y E S .Q . HAVE YOU STUDIED THE EFFECTS OF SEGREGATION ANDDESEGREGATION UPON BLACK ACHIEVEMENT?A . Y E S .Q . AND HAVE YOU STUDIED THE EFFECTS OF SEGREGATION ANDDESEGREGATION UPON THE LATER L IF E  A SPIR A T IO N S OR CAREERS OF BLACKS?A . Y E S , I  HAVE.Q . NOW, D R. C R A IN , HAVE YOU T E S T IF IE D  BEFORE?A . Y E S , I  HAVE.Q . COULD YOU STATE IN  WHAT CASES YOU HAVE T E S T IF IE D ?A . I  T E S T IF IE D  FOR THE P L A IN T IF F 'S  IN NORFOLK, AND INSUBURBAN PITTSBURGH . I  T E S T IF IE D  FOR THE SCHOOL BOARD IN  PH ILA D E LPH IA . WORKED AS AN EXPERT APPOINTED BY THE COURT IN THE CASE IN LOS AN GELES. ALL WERE SCHOOL DESEGREGATION C A S E S .Q . D R. C R A IN , IN WHAT AREA DO YOU REGARD YOURSELF AS ANEXPERT?A . WELL, O B V IO U SLY, RESEARCH ON SCHOOL DESEGREGATIONGENERALLY, RESEARCH ON URBAN P O L IT IC S  AND COMMUNITY D E C ISIO N



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MAKING, WRITTEN BOOKS ON E FFECT IVE  SCHOOLS AND RESEARCH ON RACE R ELA T IO N S. I  AM AN EXPERT ON SCHOOL DEMOGRAPHY AND WHITE F L IG H T . I  HAVE TAUGHT RESEARCH METHODS AND MATHEMATICAL SOCIOLOGY AND I  HAVE DONE WORK AS AN EXPERT IN EDUCATIONAL EVALUATION.Q . L E T 'S  TAKE THE F IR S T  ONE OF THOSE. YOU MENTIONEDRESEARCH METHODOLOGY. WHY DO YOU REGARD YOURSELF AS AN EXPERT IN RESEARCH METHODOLOGY?A . I  HAVE TAUGHT THAT COURSE, COURSES IN  THAT AREA INCHICAGO AND SU PERVISED  D ISSE R T A T IO N S. AND I  DID THE MATHEMATICAL SOCIOLOGY TRAINING IN CH ICAGO .Q . WITH RESPECT TO URBAN P O L IT IC S , I  B E LIE V E  YOU SA IDGOVERNMENT —A . THREE BOOKS IN THAT AREA, TWO HAVING TO DO WITH THEP O L IT IC S  OF SCHOOL DESEGREGATION CONTROVERSIES AND THE THIRD HAVING TO DO WITH OTHER URBAN PROBLEMS AND GOVERNMENT A CT IO N . 
Q,  WITH RESPECT TO SCHOOL DESEGREGATION GENERALLY, WHY DOYOU REGARD YOURSELF AS AN EXPERT?A . I  STUDIED SCHOOL DESEGREGATION FOR 22 Y E A R S. DONEFOUR STUD IES OF THE EFFECTS OF DESEGREGATION.Q . WITH RESPECT TO E FFECT IVE  SCHOOLS, WHY DO YOU REGARDYOURSELF AS AN EXPERT IN E FFECTIVE SCHOOLS?A . I  D ID  A BOOK ON E FFECT IVE  SOUTHERN HIGH SCHOOLS ANDNOW HALFWAY THROUGH ANOTHER BOOK DEALING WITH EFFECTIVESCHOOLS



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Q . COULD YOU DEFINE WHAT YOU MEAN BY E FFECT IVE  SCHOOLS?A . OH, E FFECT IVE  SCHOOLS IN MY CASE I  REFER TO SCHOOLSWHICH DO AN EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD JO B  GIVEN THE KIND OF STUDENT COM POSITION THEY HAD AND THE KIND OF COMMUNITY THAT THEY WERE I N . IN EDUCATING STUDENTS AND DEVELOPING GOOD RACE RELATIONS AND PREPARING STUDENTS FOR CO LLEG E.Q . THE DEMOGRAPHY OF WHITE F L IG H T , D R. C R A IN , WHY DO YOUREGARD YOURSELF AS AN EXPERT ON THAT?A . I  HAVE READ THAT LITERATURE E XT EN SIV E LY, AND I  WAS THESUPERVISOR OF CHRISTEN M ARCELL'S DOCTORATE D ISSE R T A T IO N .CH R IS IS  PROBABLY THE LEADING EXPERT ON WHITE FLIG H T IN THE UNITED ST A T E S.Q . FORMERLY I  B E LIE V E  YOU SA ID  YOU REGARDED YOURSELF ASAN EXPERT IN THE AREA OF EVALUATION OF EDUCATION, IS  THAT HO/ YOU PUT IT ?A . Y E S . I  DID EDUCATIONAL EVALUATION WITH THE RANDCORPORATION FOR MOST OF THE TIME THAT I  WAS THERE.Q . NOW, YOUR HONOR, WITH THAT I  WOULD L IK E  TO HAVE DR.CRAIN ESTABLISHED AS AN EXPERT IN THE AREA OF SCHOOL DESEGREGATION AND IT S  E F F E C T S , AND SEGREGATION AND IT S  EFFECTS AND RESEARCH METHODOLOGY FOR MEASURING THOSE E F F E C T S. THE COURT* ANYBODY WANT TO CROSS-EXAM INE DR. CR A IN ? MR. FORCH: NO, YOUR HONOR.THE COURT: HE DOES Q U A L IF Y . ACTUALLY, YOUR REPUTATION PRECEDED YOU, DR. C R A IN . I  WANT THE RECORD TO



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SHOW I  AM NOT Q U A LIFYIN G HIM SIM PLY BECAUSE HE HAS WRITTEN A NUMBER OF BOOKS. I  HAVE READ SOME OF THE WORST BOOKS.D O ESN 'T MAKE YOU AN EXPERT TO WRITE A BOOK. BUT HE IS  AN EXPERT IN EACH OF THE F IE L D S THAT YOU HAVE MENTIONED.Q . THANK YOU VERY MUCH, YOUR HONOR.THE COURT* I  EVEN WROTE A BOOK. THAT TH IS PROVES HCW EASY IT  I S .Q . WE REGARD YOU AS AN EXPERT.THE COURT; I  DON'T BLAME YOU.Q . D R. C R A IN , YOU HAVE ST U D IE D , YOU S A Y , THE EFFECTS OFSEGREGATION AND DESEGREGATION UPON BLACK ACHIEVEMENT. HAVE YOU WRITTEN A R T ICLE S ON THAT?A . Y E S .Q . COULD YOU D ESCRIBE THEM? COULD YOU DESCRIBE THE T IT L EOF ANY OF THOSE A R T IC L E S?A . WELL, I  W ILL PICK  SOME. P O L IT IC S  DESEGREGATINGMINORITY ACHIEVEMENT LIT ER A TU R E, A PAPER I  D ID  WITH R ITA  MAIIARD, WHICH SUMMARIZES THE DESEGREGATION ACHIEVEMENT RESEARCH THAT SHE AND I  D ID . IT  IS  L IST E D  ON PAGE 6 OF MY V IT A .Q . L E T 'S  EXAMINE THE WORK YOU DID IN THAT A R T IC L E . COULDYOU TELL US IF  THERE WAS ANYTHING NEW ABOUT THE WORK THAT YOU D ID  IN TH IS CA SE ?A . WELL, IT  I S  WHAT COMMONLY I S  CALLED IN TOE B U SIN ESS AMETHOD A N A L Y S IS . I  LOCATED EVERY STUDY THAT HAD EVER BEEN



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DONE OF BLACK ACHIEVEMENT AFTER DESEGREGATION. AFTER WE GET THOSE WHICH WERE IM PO SSIBLE TO EVALUATE, FOUND 93 SUCH S T U D IE S . WE THEN ESSEN TIALLY CONSTRUCTED A COMPUTER F IL E  IN WHICH WE ANALYZED THE 93 STUDENTS, COMPARED THEM TO EACH OTHER. AND T H IS  IS  THE NEW TECHNOLOGY WHICH IS  CALLED METAIOD A N A L Y S IS . IT  ENABLED US TO, FOR EXAMPLE, SEPARATE THE STUD IES Q UICKLY INTO THOSE THAT USED SUPERIOR METHODOLOGY VERSUS THOSE THAT HAD WEAKNESSES OF DIFFERENT K IN D S. W'E COMPARED STU D IES DONE IN NORTHERN C IT I E S  VERSUS STU D IES DONE IN SOUTHERN C I T I E S .  C IT I E S  OF MANDATORY VERSUS VOLUNTARY DESEGREGATION, THAT SORT OF THING IN ORDER TO ANALYZE WHAT THE EFFECTS OF THESE AREAS WERE.Q . DID  YOU USE A PARTICULAR METHODOLOGY IN DOING TH ISSTUDY?A . Y E S . IT  I S  I  THINK PROPERLY CALLED METHOD A N A LYSIS ORCOMPUTER A SSIST E D  LITERATURE REVIEW , BUT THAT ANALYSIS EASIER  TO U SE .Q . COULD YOU D ESCR IBE THE NATURE OF THE METHODOLOGY THATYOU USED IN YOUR STUDY?A . WELL, I F  YOU THINK OF EACH SAMPLE OF STUDENTS WHO HAVEBEEN STUDIED AFTER THEY WBNT TO A DESEGREGATED SCHOOL, THERE WERE I  THINK A TOTAL OF 320 SOME ODD SUCH SAMPLES OF STUDENTS.PREVIOUS RESEARCH HAD ALWAYS BEEN CONFOUNDED BY THE FACT THAT, AS YOU MIGHT EXPECT , SOME OF THE STUDENTS SHOWED



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P O S IT IV E  EFFECTS AND SOME DON’ T . RELATIVELY FEW SHOW NEGATIVE E F F E C T S , BUT SEEMED NOT TO SHOW ANY EFFECT AT A L L . THE QUESTION WHICH WAS PUZZLING HE WAS WHY WOULD YOU GET THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOME STU D IES AND OTHER S T U D IE S . IT  TURNS OUT THERE IS  A RELATIVELY SIM PLE ANSWER. HAVING TO DO WITH THE QUALITY OF THE RESEARCH METHOD.THE BEST ST U D IES ARE THOSE THAT USED A RADOMIZED ASSIGNM ENT. T H IS IS  THE SORT OF THING DONE IN MEDICAL RESEARCH WHERE YOU D IV ID E  TWO MICE GROUPS INTO RANDOM, AND ONE GROUP GETS SOME MEDICAL TREATMENT AND THE OTHER GROUP DOESN’ T AND THEN YOU WATCH THE TWO TO SEE WHAT THEIR PROGRESS I S  OR WHAT THE DEVELOPMENT I S .  AND YOU KNOW THERE C A N 'T  BE ANY DIFFERENCE EXCEPT THE TREATMENT BECAUSE YOU RANDOMIZE BUT THEM IN TOO S E T S . SCHOOL CHILDREN AREN’ T M IC E , BUT IN SOME CASES YOU DO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DECIDE SOME OF THEM SELECTED AT RANDOM CAN BE SEGREGATED AND SOME GROUP NOT. SO YOU CAN MAKE THAT KIND OF COMPARISON.OTHER STU D IES WHICH ARE NOT QUITE TOAT GOOD BUT WHICH SHORT OF TRY TO DO THAT ARE CLEARLY BETTER THAN S T U D IE S , FOR EXAMPLE, WHICH ONLY TOUCH —  STUDIED AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN SEGREGATED AND DON'T TEST THEM BEFORE, SO YOU CA N 'T BE CERTAIN THE ONES IN THE SEGREGATED SCHOOLS AND THE ONES IN DESEGREGATED SCHOOLS BEGAN AT THE SAME PO IN T .THE OTHER PROBLEM WHICH WE DISCOVERED WHICH NO ONE HADEVER SEEN BEFORE I S  THAT AN AWFUL LOT OF THESE STU D IES WOULD



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STUDY DESEGREGATED BLACK STUDENTS WHO HAD STARTED IN SEGREGATED SCHOOLS AND THEN SWITCHED OVER. FOR EXAMPLE, ONE MIGHT HAVE DONE A STUDY IN RICHMOND IN  1972 IN WHICH YOU STUDIED BLACK FOURTH GRADERS. AND THOSE K ID S T Y PICA LLY WOULD HAVE GONE TO A SEGREGATED SCHOOL FOR AT LEAST THE F IR S T  THREE YEARS OF SCHOOLING BEFORE SW ITCHING OVER. AND YOU ARE NOT STUDYING THE EFFECTS OF DESEGREGATION, YOU ARE STUDYING THE EFFECTS OF THE SW ITCH.APPARENTLY THE SW ITCH, THE EFFECTS OF THE SWITCH ARE NOT VERY GOOD BECAUSE AN AWFUL LOT OF ST U D IE S DO NOT SHOW P O S IT IV E  E F F E C T S. ON THE OTHER HAND, IF  YOU TAKE THE STU D IES WHICH WERE DONE WELL, EITHER THEY WERE RANDOM ASSIGNMENT TO BEGIN WITH OR THEY WERE CAREFUL LONGITUDINAL STUD IES WHERE YOU TESTED BEFORE THEY WERE DESEGREGATED AND THEN AFTER AND YOU ONLY LOOKED AT STUDENTS WHO HAD ALSO BEEN DESEGREGATED, KINDERGARTEN AND F IR S T  GRADE, THEN THE RESULTS ARE ALMOST UNIFORMLY P O S IT IV E . I  THINK I  FOUND 45 SAMPLES OF STUDENTS WHO HAD BEEN DESEGREGATED IN THAT WAY AND STUDIED IN THAT WAY, AND 40 TO 45 SHOW P O S IT IV E  E FFE C T S, AND THE EFFECTS ARE RELATIVELY LARGE.ABOUT A FIFTH  OF THE ACHIEVEMENT GAP BETWEEN BLACKS AND WHITES SEEMS TO DISAPPEAR JU S T  IN THE F IS T  YEAR OR TWO IN SEGREGATION.SO I  THINK THAT INFORMATION CONVINCED ME ONCE ONE SETTLED ON WHAT GOOD STU D IES WERE, USE OF COMPUTER TO SELECT



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THE BEST S T U D IE S , SORT OF ANSWERED THE PUZZLE WHICH HAD BEEN CONCERNING ME ABOUT VJHY WE WEREN'T GETTING CONSISTENT E F F E C T S. YOU DO GET CONSISTENT EFFECTS IF  THE METHODOLOGY I S  S O L ID .Q . SO YOU DEVISED  AND A PPLIE D  TH IS METHODOLOGY?A . R IG H T .Q . NOW, I  THINK YOU SA ID  THERE WERE 93 STUD IES —A . Y E S .Q . —  THAT YOU FOUND. HAD ANYONE ELSE FOUND AS MANYSTUD IES AND EXAMINED THEM?A . NANCY SAINTJOH N AND WINBBURG HAD BOTH DONE PREVIOUSLITERATURE REVIEW S. THEY HAD NOT BEEN COMPUTERIZED LITERATURE REVIEW S, SORT OF REVIEWS WHERE NANCY SAINTJOHN SA ID  SEEM TO BE A LOTS OF ST U D IE S WHICH A R EN 'T  P O S IT IV E , SO IT  I S  HARD TO TELL WHAT I S  GOING ON. MY RESEARCH TENDED TO BE B IA SE D  IN FAVOR, WINEBURG, TENDED TO BE IN  FAVOR OF SEGREGATION SO HE TENDED TO LOOK AT THINGS AND FOUND P O S IT IV E  EFFECTS OF SEGREGATION WHERE OTHER S C IE N T IS T S  PROBABLY WOULD NOT. I  THINK H IS  RESULTS WERE PROBABLY OFTEN TOO FAVORABLE TO DESEGREGATION. SO THOSE ARE THE ONLY TWO PRECEDING S T U D IE S , AND I  THINK THEY ARE BOTH WEAKER THAN WHAT WE D ID .Q . NOW, D R. C R A IN , L E T 'S  TAKE A LOOK AT THE STUDY THATYOU D ID . COULD YOU TELL US WHAT CONCLUSIONS YOU DRAW OR WHAT FIN D IN G S YOU MADE ON THE B A S IS  OF YOUR METHOD A N A L Y S IS .A . THE P R IN C IP L E  CONCLUSION I S  THAT THE EFFECTS OF



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DESEGREGATION ON BLACK STUDENTS ARE TO D E FIN IT E LY  R A ISE  ACHIEVEMENT TEST SCO R E S, AND MY BEST ESTIMATE OF THE E FFE C T , THE AMOUNT, OF COU RSE, I S  ABOUT FOUR OR F IV E  I .  Q,  P O IN T S .Q . FOUR OR F IV E  I F  I .  Q . P O IN T S?A . Y E S .I  USED BOTH ACHIEVEMENT TEST SCORES AND IN TELLIGENCE SCO R E S. BOTH OF THEM SHOW B E N E FICIA L EFFECTS OF DESEGREGATION. PROBABLY ABOUT THE SAME ORDER OF MAGNITUDE OF FOUR OR F IV E  I .  Q . POINTS OR PERHAPS A GAIN OF SAY 25 POINTS ON THE S .  A . T . EXAMINE THAT YOU TAKE AT THE END OF HIGH SCHOOL IN MATH OR IN READING, EITHER ONE. SO I F  YOUR SCORE WOULD HAVE BEEN 4 HUNDRED IN  A SEGREGATED SCHOOL, IT  WOULD BE 425 I F  YOU HAD DESEGREGATION EDUCATION. THAT SORT OF S IZ E  OF IN C R E A SE . OF OR I F  YOU MEASURED I .  Q . ,  PROBABLY A SCORE OF ABOUT FOUR POINTS H IGH ER, SOMETHING L IK E  THAT.Q . WAS EITHER ONE A SU R PR ISIN G  FIN D IN G ?A . I  THINK THOSE EFFECTS ARE PRETIT G O O D -S IZ E D .WHAT I  THINK THE EFFECTS ARE PRETTY LARGE IS  SUGGESTING THAT THE HARM OF SEGREGATION IS  PROBABLY LARGER THAN I  THOUGHT IT  WAS.T H IS IS  CONSISTENT WITH THE FACT THAT THE —  THAT THERE WAS DURING THE 1 9 7 0 ' S  A MARKED IMPROVEMENT ACTUALLY IN THE ACHIEVEMENT OF BLACK STUDENTS. THE ONLY GOOD NATIONAL TESTIN G PROGRAM WE HAVE IS  SOMETHING CALLED A NATIONAL ASSESSMENT OF EDUCATIONAL PROGRESS, WHICH WAS RUN O RIGIN ALLY



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IN  THE SOUTHWEST WHERE THERE WAS THE MOST SEGREGATION. SO THAT SUGGESTIONS THAT ELIM INATING THAT SEGREGATION IN THE SOUTHEAST MAY HAVE BEEN A MAJOR FACTOR THAT WOULD BE CONSISTENT WITH MY RESEARCH, WHICH SHOWS A CONSIDERABLE CLOSING OF THE G A P . WELL, A PARTIAL CLOSING OF THE GAP IN  JU S T  THE F IR S T  FEW YEARS OF DESEGREGATION.A . SO I  THINK THAT IS  CO N SIST E N T . IT  ENCOURAGED ME TOB ELIEVE MY ESTIMATE IS  PRETTY GOOD.Q . D R . C R A IN , D ID  YOU FIND THAT OR MAKE ANY PARTICULARFIN D IN G S WITH RESPECT TO PERIODS OF TIME WHEN SEGREGATION, DESEGREGATION, WAS MOST E FFECT IV E  OR DESEGREGATION WAS MOST HARMFUL?IN  TERMS OF ACHIEVEMENT?A . Y E S . IT  WAS IMPORTANT FOR THE STUDENTS TO BESEGREGATED IN  KINDERGARTEN AND F IR S T  GRADE. SO THAT THE STUDENTS WHO SWITCHED OVER WHEN THE DESEGREGATION PLAN F IR S T  BEGAN TENDED NOT TO SHOW ACADEMIC BEN EFITS OF STUDENTS THAT SWITCHED IN  HIGH SCHOOL. MAY EVEN BE HARMED IN SUCH C A S E S . THAT HAS IM PLICATIO N  FOR RICHMOND BECAUSE IT  MEANS IN  TERMS OP THE GRADUATES FROM THE RICHMOND PU B LIC  SCHOOLS GOING ON TO COLLEGE IT  IS  REALLY ONLY SIN C E  ABOUT 1982 OR 1983 THAT THOSE STUDENTS HAD SHOWN THE, YOU KNOW, A TOTAL INTEGRATED EDUCATION. SHOWING COULD P O SSIB L Y  SHOW ANY NOTICEABLE BENEFITS OF DESEGREGATION. SO IT  IS  ONLY IN  THE LAST FEW YEARS COULD YOU SEE THE TOTAL EFFECT OF THE —  OF THE



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ELIM INATION OF SEGREGATION.Q . L E T ’ S ME MAKE SURE I  UNDERSTAND THE POINT YOU JU S TMADE. ARE YOU SAYING IT  IS  ONLY WITHIN THE COURSE OF THE LAST FEW Y E A R S, WELL 1 ,  2 ,  OR 3 THAT ONE WOULD BE ABLE TO MEASURE THE TOTAL EFFECT OR —A . IN  TERMS OF HOW WELL, FOR EXAMPLE, BLACK STUDENTS INRICHMOND ARE ABLE TO DO AT THE U N IVER SITY OF V IR G IN IA  IT  IS  ONLY IN  THE LAST TWO ONE WOULD SEE THE RESULTS OF THE MEASURE OF THE OLD SEGREGATION.THE COURT: I S N 'T  THAT CONSISTENT WITH THE TEN YEAR THEORY, THAT IT  WOULD TAKE TEN YEARS TO GET R ID  OF THE G A P ,AS I  UNDERSTAND IT ?A . WELL, —THE COURT: BECAUSE WE DESEGREGATED, I  THINK IT  WAS IN '7 2  HERE.A . THAT I S  R IG H T . WELL IT  TAKES 12 YEARS FOR THE K ID S TOGO THROUGH THE SYSTEM . THE TEST SCORES THAT SHOWED SO MUCH CLOSING DURING THE 1 9 7 0 'S  WERE TEST SCORES OF SMALL CHILDREN. THOSE YOU WOULD SEE PRETTY Q U IC K L Y . S O , BY 1979 OR '8 0  YOU WOULD HAVE STUDENTS WHO HAD D E F IN IT E L Y , WHO WOULD SAY IN THIRD OR FOURTH GRADE THAT THEY D E FIN IT E LY  RECEIVED ALL THEIR SCHOOLING IN DESEGREGATED SCH O OLS. THE K ID S OLD ENOUGH TO HAVE GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL YOU WOULD ONLY SEE JU S T  '8 2  TO '8 3 ,Q . IN  TERMS OF THEIR BEING ABLE TO GO TO COLLEGE OR IN



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TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO OBTAIN JO B S ?A . THAT IS  R IG H T .THE COURT; BUT EACH YEAR NOW YOU ARE GOING TO GET THE SAME R ESU LT, YOU ARE GOING TO GET A GOOD R ESU LT , A R EN 'T YOU, NEXT YEAR?A . THAT IS  R IG H T . I F  YOU HAD E FFECTIVE  DESEGREGATEDSCHOOLS YOU OUGHT TO BE ON A PLATEAU. THE EFFECTS OF —THERE SHOULDN'T BE ANY DIRECT EFFECTS OF SEGREGATION BECAUSE NOW THE GRADUATES SHOULD NOT BE COMING OUT OF SEGREGATED SCHOOLS AT A L L , SHOULD NEVER HAVE SEEN A SEGREGATED SCHOOL.THE COURT: WHAT IS  THE SIG N IF IC A N C E  OF THE PHRASE "E F F E C T IV E  DESEGREGATION"?I S  THERE A REASON YOU USE THE WORD "E F F E C T IV E "?A . Y E S , THERE I S .  I  WOULD L IK E  TO PUT YOU ON HOLD,BECAUSE MY TESTIMONY I S  A LOT ABOUT WHY DESEGREGATED SCHOOLS DON'T WORK AND SO FORTH, AND SO I  W ILL GET TO —  I  W ILL TALK A LOT ABOUT E FFECT IVE  DESEGREGATED SCHOOLS.THE COURT; ALL R IG H T .Q . I S  THAT OKAY, YOUR HONOR?THE COURT: SU RE.Q . DR. C R A IN , DID YOU FIN D  IN TH IS STUD Y, DID YOU MAKEANY FIN D IN G S IN T H IS STUDY ON READING?A . THE EVIDENCE IN T H IS RESEARCH INDICATED THAT WHERESTUDENTS BENEFITTED MOST FROM DESEGREGATION WAS WHERE THEY REALLY LEARNED TO READ W ELL. AND WHERE SCHOOL D IS T R IC T S  DID



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NOT PRODUCE HIGH ACHIEVEMENT GA IN S FOR STUDENTS IT  V7AS MAINLY BECAUSE THEY WERE UNABLE TO IMPROVE READING SCO R E S. SO IT  IS  AS IF  IN ORDER FOR DESEGREGATION TO WORK YOU HAVE TO MAKE READING WORK. DESEGREGATION HAS TO MAKE THE READING WORK,AND THEN OTHERS FOLLOW FROM THAT.A . THAT I S  THE MOST OBVIOUS POINT TO AN EDUCATOR BECAUSETHEY ARGUE THAT READING IS  THE KEY TO MOST OF THE LEARNING.Q . NOW, DOCTOR, I  MYSELF WENT THROUGH A SEGREGATEDSCHOOL, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS  SA ID  —THE COURT; WAIT A M INUTE. IF  YOU ARE GOING TO T E ST IF Y  WE HAVE TO SWEAR YOU IN .Q . OKAY. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I  WAS TOLD WAS THAT YOU COULD NOT CHANGE I .  Q . —THE COURT* MR. W ILLIA M S, I  PREFER YOU NOT MAKE ANY PERSONAL REFERENCE.Q . THANK YO U , YOUR HONOR.THE COURT: B E SID E S THE HEARSAY INVOLVED.Q . OKAY.DOCTOR, A MINUTE AGO YOU SA ID  THAT THERE WAS SOME CHANGES IN THE I .  Q . .  I S  NOT I .  Q . A FEATURE THAT CANNGT BE CHANGED FOR A GIVEN CH ILD ?A . NO. I .  Q . CAN BE CHANGED. FOR EXAMPLE, IT  IS  A WELL,CAREFULLY DONE STUDY OF A GROUP OF FOLLOW THROUGH STUDENTS WHO WERE GIVEN  A SP E C IA L  KIND OF EDUCATIONAL PROGRAM AND AT



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THE END OF WHICH AN ABSOLUTELY NON ROADBLOCK TEST WAS ADMINISTERED AND THEIR SCORES WERE CONSIDERABLY HIGHER ON THAT THAN THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN BEFORE. THE NOTIONS THAT WHAT IS  MEASURED BY AN I .  Q . TEST IS  JU S T  TYPE OR PHYSIOLOGY OF THE BRAIN IS  APPARENTLY WRONG. I .  Q . SCORES DO CHANGE.0 .  I  S E E .ALL R IG H T . DOCTOR, WERE THERE ANY OTHER FIN D IN G S THAT YOU MADE IN THAT PARTICULAR STUDY THAT WE HAVE OMITTED?A . WELL, ONE THING THAT I  WAS INTERESTED IN WAS THE,B R IE F L Y , WAS THE EFFECTS OF DIFFERENT RACIAL COM POSITIONS OF SCHOOLS AFTER DESEGREGATION. ONE THING THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE WORRIED ABOUT WAS WHETHER YOU COULD SPREAD BLACK STUDENTS TOO T H IN , SO FEW BLACK STUDENTS IN SCHOOL THEY WOULD HAVE D IF F IC U L T Y  LEARNING JU S T  BECAUSE THE ATMOSPHERE WOULD BE TOO IN H O SPIT A B LE , IT  TURNS OUT THAT IS  TRUE, IT  SEEM S. SO AT ONE END SCHOOLS WHICH ARE OVERWHELMINGLY WHITE DO OVERWHELM BLACK STUDENTS. ON THE OTHER HAND SCHOOLS WHICH ARE PREDOMINANTLY BLACK BUT DESEGREGATED ARE PROBABLY NOT AS E FFECTIVE AS SCHOOLS WHICH ARE SAY 30 OR 40 PERCENT, 2 0 , 3 0 , 40 PERCENT BLACK.THE COURT: ARE YOU SAYING RACIAL BALANCE IS  EDUCATIONALLY SOUND, IS  THAT WHAT YOU ARE SA Y IN G ?A . Y E S . I  AM SAYING PREDOMINANTLY W HITE, BUT NOTOVERWHELMINGLY WHITE IS  PROBABLY THE BEST KIND OF DESEGREGATION IN  TERMS OF THE ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT OF



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STUDENTS.I  THINK THE THEORY OF WHAT IS  GOING ON HERE, AS BEST AS I  CAN FIGURE IT  OUT, WHAT HAPPENS IN A DESEGREGATED SCHOOL, NOT ANY MAGIC PA R TICU LA RLY, NOT THAT THERE IS  SOMETHING THAT RUBS OFF THE WHITE K ID S ON TO THE BLACK K ID S ,BUT A TEACHER, WHITE OR BLACK, IN A DESEGREGATED CLASSROOM W ILL SIM PLY PACE THE CLASSROOM FA ST ER , WHICH MEANS MORE MATERIAL W ILL GET COVERED SO  THERE IS  MORE CHANCE TO LEARN. TEACHERS W ILL HAVE HIGHER EXPECTATIONS FOR THE K ID S . T H IS IS  A VERY IMPORTANT FACTOR, AND THERE I S  LOTS OF RESEARCH SHOWING IF  TEACHERS DON'T EXPECT MUCH FROM K ID S THEY WON'T GET MUCH. AND THE THIRD THING THAT HAPPENS, AND TH IS IS  THE —  JAMES COLEMAN STRESSED IT  IN THE COLEMAN REPORT REPEATEDLY,HE SAYS IT  IS  THE LARGEST FACTOR,THE COURT: BUT HE CHANGED H IS VIEWS A NUMBER OFT IM E S .A . HE H A S. WHAT HE SA ID  IN '6 6 ,  I  THINK HE WAS RIGHT THEF IR S T  T IM E . HE SHOULD NOT HAVE CHANGED H IS MIND ON. H IS RESEARCH SHOWED THAT BLACK STUDENTS IN SEGREGATED SCHOOLS WERE VERY F A T A L IS T IC . THEY TENDED TO IN TECHNICAL TERMS FEEL THAT THERE IS  EXTERNAL CONTROL OVER THEIR ENVIRONMENT. THEY COULDN'T CONTROL WHAT IS  HAPPENING TO THEM. GETTING A GOOD JO B  I S  A MATTER OF LU CK , GETTING ANYTHING WAS MOSTLY A MATTER OF LU CK . HARD WORK WON'T HELP YOU. THAT KIND OF FATALISM .OF COURSE, I F  YOU B E LIE V E  THAT THEN YOU WON'T BOTHER TO WORK.



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AND SO T H IS KIND OF HOPELESSNESS OR HELPLESNESS FEELING PERVADES SEGREGATED SCH O OLS, SHCWS UP IN  THE O RIGIN AL COLEMAN REPORT AND A NUMBER OF ST U D IES SIN CE  THEN. OF COURSE IF  YOU FEEL THAT WAY THEN YOU WON'T BE MOTIVATED TO PUSH AS HARD WHEN YOU ARE —  YOU WON'T LEARN AS MUCH. I  THINK THE COMBINATION OF TEACHERS PACING SLOWER, TEACHERS HAVING LOW EXPECTATION, AND THE K ID S IN A WAY SORT OF HAVING LOW EXPECTATIONS FOR THE WORLD, ALL THREE ADD UP TO PROBLEMS.Q . IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU JU S T  SA ID  ABOUT RACIALCOM PO SITION , DID YOU FIND ANY DIFFERENCES BETWEEN NORTH AND SOUTH?A . I  DON'T THINK S O . B A SICA LLY THE SAME.Q . D R. C R A IN , YOU HAVE WRITTEN SEVERAL PA PER S, HAVE YOUNOT, ON THE SU B JECT OF DESEGREGATION AND ACHIEVEMENT?A . Y E S .Q . HAVE THOSE PAPERS BEEN ATTACKED BY OTHERS ORREPLICATED ?A . Y E S . SHORTLY AFTER THE ELECTION OF PRESIDENT REAGANTHE NATIONAL IN ST ITU TE OF EDUCATION, WHICH HAD FUNDED MY WORK BEFORE, PUT TOGETHER A PANEL DESIGNED TO REVIEW MY CO N CLU SIO N S. THE PANEL WAS INTENDED TO BE IDEOLOGICALLY BALANCED. TWO L IB E R A L S , I  WAS GOING TO BE ONE OF THE TWO, THEY DECIDED I  WAS A LIBER AL BECAUSE THE RESULTS WERE FAVORABLE TO DESEGREGATION, WAS GOING TO HAVE TWO CON SER VATIVES, WAS GOING TO HAVE TWO NEUTRALS. IR O N ICALLY



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ONE OF THE TWO NEUTRALS THEY SELECTED WAS PROFESSOR WALLBURG WHO HAD AT THAT TIME REPEATEDLY T E S T IF IE D  ALWAYS FOR DEFENDANT SCHOOL D IS T R IC T S . WHICH .MADE BE WONDER HOW THEY DEFINED NEUTRAL. PLUS ONE METHODOLOGIST WHO WAS THERE TO KEEP US FROM K IL L IN G  EACH OTHER, I  SU PPO SE . TH IS PRODUCED —  AND THEN WE WERE CALLED TOGETHER AND MET AND THEY REVIEWED AND RE-ANALYZED SOME OF THE DATA. THE OVERALL CONCLUSION OF THE PANEL VARIED BY MEMBER A GOOD DEAL.MOST OF THE PAN ELISTS LOOKED AT ONLY 19 OF THE 93 STUD IES I  LOOKED AT ON THE GROUNDS THE OTHER 74 WEREN’ T GOOD ENOUGH Q U A LIT Y .THE METHODOLOGIST, THOMAS COOK OF NORTHWESTERN COMMENTED AFTERWARD, IT  WAS SORT OF —  IN  MANY CASES —  COMMENTED AFTER —MR. LUCYK: O B JE C T IO N .A . WELL, HE WROTE A PAPER, SO IT  IS  —THE COURTi JU S T  A MOMENT. I  WANT TO HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING. I  WON'T LET YOU PICK  AND CHOOSE. YOU CA N 'T  LET THAT HEARSAY WHICH YOU L IK E  TO HEAR COME IN AND THEN COMPLAIN ABOUT THE NEXT ONE. IT  I S  ON THE SAME TH IN G. I  WANT YOU TO MAKE THE O BJECTIO N  PROMPTLY.MR. LUCYKt Y E S , S I R ,  JU D G E . I  W ILL BE MORE ALERT.THE COURV* YOU ARE R IG H T . IT  IS  HEARSAY.Q . THANK YO U , YOUR HONOR.A . I  AM SO RRY. I  W ILL BACK OFF A MINUTE. SORRY ABOUT



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THAT.Q . WAS THERE A FIN AL REPORT THAT THE PANEL MADE?A . YES AND NO.THERE WAS A LARGE MEETING IN WASHINGTON WHERE WE ALSO SAT AROUND AND CONGRATULATED EACH OTHER FOR GETTING THE WORK DONE. AND THEN HO REPORT WAS RELEASED FOR A COUPLE Y E A R S.AND THEN AT THE TIME OF THE CELEBRATION OF THE ANNIVERSARY OF BROWN WHEN THERE WAS A GOOD DEAL OF FAVORABLE P U B L IC IT Y  RELEASED BY ORGANIZATIONS L IK E  THE NATIONAL EDUCATION A S S O C IA T IO N , A DESEGREGATION STAFF PERSON AT N . I .  E . ,  DENNIS CUTTY, WHO WAS A PROTEGE OF JE S S E E  HELMS, LEAKED A COPY TO THE WASHINGTON T IM E S . AT THAT P O IN T , ONLY AFTER THAT THE GOVERNMENT RELEASED THE O R IG IN A L REPORT. SO THEY CHANGED THEIR MIND ABOUT RELEASING IT  AFTER IT  WAS LEAKED. THEY APPARENTLY D ID N 'T  INTEND TO RELEASE I T ,  BUT THEY HAD T O .Q . WITH RESPECT TO EACH ONE OF THOSE PAN ELISTS WHOREVIEWED OR WHO MADE A REPORT, YOU SA ID  THEY USED A SMALLER NUMBER OF STUDENT QUESTIONS THAN THE ONES YOU HAD AND MORE OR LE SS DID EACH PA N ELIST USE THE SAME GROUP OF ST U D IE S?A . ONE P A N E L IST , PAUL WORKMAN AT THE U N IVE R SIT Y OFM ICH IGAN , HAD SOME EXPERIENCE WITH THESE DATA, IN FACT ALREADY BEEN WORKING ON THEM. HE USED 37 S T U D IE S , I  B E L IE V E . THE OTHER PAN ELISTS TOOK H IS  3 7 , THREW OUT HALF OF THEM, AND I  THINK THEY PRETTY MUCH ALL USED 1 9 . SOMETIMES ONE PAN ELIST WOULDN'T L IK E  ONE PARTICULAR STUD Y, BUT THEY ARRIVED AT A



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CONCENSUS THEY WOULD JU S T  ONLY 19 S T U D IE S . AND THEY ALL RAN ABOUT 19 OR 2 0 , EXCEPT FOR PAUL WORKMAN.Q . I  B E LIE V E  YOU REFERRED TO THEM AS THE MODERATOR. DR.COOK, WAS H IS  REPORT BASED UPON 19 S T U D IE S , 37 OR 93?A . W ELL, H IS TEST WAS E SSEN TIALLY TO COMMENT ON THEPAPERS WRITTEN BY OTHERS. SO HE SIM PLY D ISCU SSED  THE FACT THAT PAN ELISTS HAD CHOSEN DIFFERENT NUMBERS OF ST U D IES TO REVIEW, AND WAS C R IT IC A L  OF THE D E C ISIO N  NOT TO USE ALL 9 3 .Q . DID  YOU WRITE A PAPER?A . I  WROTE A PAPER WHICH I  SIM PLY ENTITLED I S  19 STUD IESREALLY BETTER THAN 9 3 ? IN  WHICH I  POINTED OUT THAT MANY OF THE PAN ELISTS HAD NOT EVEN READ THE ST U D IES THEY WEREN'T EVEN IN CLU D IN G .THE COURT; I  REALLY D IS L IK E  INTERRUPTING COUNSEL. I  WANT YOU TO TRY OUR OWN C A S E , BUT FAIR N ESS DICTATES THAT I  TELL YOU I  DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU ARE G O IN G , AND I  REALLY DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU HAVE BEEN. I F  IT  IS  M ATERIAL, YOU BETTER USE SOME OTHER METHOD. I  AM NOT GETTING ANYTHING FROM I T .  I  FIN D  IT  MOST IN T E R E ST IN G , BUT IT  I S  NOT HELPING ME DECIDE T H IS C A S E . MAYBE YOU W ILL PUT IT  TOGETHER AND SHOW ME HOW IT  D O ES. BUT SO FA R , THE LAST FEW MINUTES I  HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THAT UMPIRE IN THE 6TH GAME OF THE WORLD S E R IE S  IS  GOING TO BE F IR E D . MY MIND NOT OUGHT TO BE L IK E  THAT.Q . I  UNDERSTAND WITH RESPECT TO THAT. I  WANTED TO MAKESURE WE STATED FOR THE RECORD THAT DR. C R A IN 'S  WORK HAD BEEN



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ATTACKED.THE COURT! WELL, EVERY E X P E R T 'S  WORK I S  ATTACKED SOMEWHERE ALONG THE L IN E  BY SOMEBODY E L S E .Q . D R. C R A IN , MOVING MORE GENERALLY AND BEYONDACHIEVEMENT, ON THE B A S IS  OF ALL OF YOUR SEARCH DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION WHETHER OR NOT PAST DE JU R E  SEGREGATION HAS BEEN HARMFUL TO THE EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES OF BLACK CHILDREN?A . MY O PIN IO N  IS  THAT THE PAST SEGREGATION BEFORE 1971 INRICHMOND I S  PRESENTLY HARMFUL TO THE STUDENTS OF RICHMOND.THE COURT: EXCUSE ME. YOU MEAN THE HARM IS  PRESENTLY BEING MANIFESTED?A . Y E S .FOR —  GO AHEAD.Q . WERE YOU THROUGH?A . Y E S .Q . I  WOULD L IK E  TO HAVE YOU, IF  YOU COULD, ID EN T IFY THEEFFECTS OF PAST DE JU R E  SEGREGATION THAT YOU REGARD AS BEING CONTINUALLY HARMFUL.A . LET ME POINT OUT THAT THE L IN E  OF ARGUMENT THAT I  WANTTO USE IN SHOWING YOU HOW I  GOT TO MY CONCLUSION IS  GOING TO LOOK AT THREE DIFFERENT WAYS IN WHICH IT  I S  PRESENTLY HARMFUL.THE COURT: BEFORE THAT, SO I  GET IT  ST R A IG H T, TO WHOM I S  IT  HARMFUL? ALL OF THE CH ILD REN , OR JU S T  THE BLACKCHILDREN



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A . 1 AM GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE HARMS TO BLACK CH ILD REN .THERE ARE HARMS TO WHITE CH ILD REN , BUT I  AM GOING TO BE TALKING I  THINK ONLY ABOUT THE HARMS TO BLACK CH ILD REN . I  THINK THAT IS  ALL I  VJAS ASKED TO DO.THE COURT: WHEN YOU SA ID  THAT DE JU R E  SEGREGATION HAS BEEN AND I S  HARMFUL TO RICHMOND STUDENTS, YOU MEANT BLACK?A . I  SHOULD HAVE SA ID  BLACK .*THE COURT: I  WANT TO BE SU R E.A . THANKS FOR THE H ELP. I  NEED I T .THE COURT: ALL R IG H T . GO AHEAD.A . THREE KINDS OF WAYS IN WHICH THOSE EFFECTS L IN G E R .ONE IS  THE PAST SEGREGATION HAS CREATED PRESENT SEGREGATION IN  THE SCH O OLS. SECONDLY, THE PAST SEGREGATION HAS CREATED PROBLEMS FOR ADULTS WHO ARE TEACHERS AND PARENTS AND EMPLOYERS AND SO FORTH OF THE PRESENT GENERATION OF SCHOOL CH ILD REN , FUTURE EMPLOYERS, PRESENT PARENTS AND TEACHERS. TH IR D LY, THE SCHOOL IT S E L F  AS AN IN ST IT U T IO N  I S  A SCHOOL WHICH HAS A LONG HISTORY OF BEING A SEGREGATED SCHOOL SYSTEM . IT  H ASN 'T ESCAPED THAT HISTORY YET IN TERMS OF IT S  STRUCTURE AND CULTURE.NOW, WITH THAT S A ID , LET ME FOCUS ON WHAT THE EFFECTS WERE WHEN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM WAS DE JU R E  SEGREGATED. AND THEN TALK ABOUT HOW THOSE MOVE FORWARD TO THE PRESENT DAY.Q . THAT IS  F IN E , DOCTOR.A . THERE ARE S I X  EFFECTS ON BLACKS THAT I  W ILL REFER T O ,



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AND THREE ADDITIONAL EFFECTS ON BOTH BLACK AND WHITE STUDENTS. THE S I X  INCLUDE ACHIEVEMENT OF —  PERHAPS I  ALREADY SA ID  TOO MUCH.SECONDLY A SEGREGATED SCHOOL SYSTEM W ILL HAVE A HIGHER DROP OUT RATE OF MINORITY STUDENTS. MINORITY STUDENTS IN SEGREGATED SCHOOLS W ILL BE MORE DELINQUENT AND MORE D IF F IC U L T IE S  WITH THE P O L IC E .SEGREGATED BLACK STUDENTS, G I R L S , W ILL BE MORE L IK E L Y  TO BECOME PREGNANT E A R L IE R , CARRY CH ILD  E A R L IE R . SEGREGATED BLACK STUDENTS W ILL DO LE SS WELL IN CO LLEG E. WITH SEGREGATION BLACK STUDENTS W ILL DO LE SS WELL IN TERMS OF EMPLOYMENT AFTER THEY GRADUATE FROM HIGH SCHOOL OR DROP OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL. IN  ADDITION BOTH WHITE AND BLACK STUDENTS W ILL AFTER THEY GRADUATE HAVE L E SS CONTACT WITH THE OPPOSITE R ACE. THEY W ILL HAVE MORE UNFAVORABLE ATTITUDES ABOUT THE OPPOSITE R A CE, THEY W ILL PREFER TO L IV E  IN SEGREGATED HOUSING OR THEY W ILL WIND UP L IV IN G  IN SEGREGATED HOUSING AS A RESULT OF THEIR SCHOOL SEGREGATION E XPE R IEN CE. SO THERE ARE NINE EFFECTS IN A L L .THE COURT: I  AM SO RRY. I  M ISSED ONE OF THE LAST THREE. LE SS CONTACT, MORE APT TO L IV E  IN SEGREGATED HOUSING. WHAT WAS THE OTHER?A . MIDDLE ONE WAS MORE UNFAVORABLE ATTITUDES ABOUT THEOTHER RACE.THE COURT: THANK YOU.



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BY MR. W ILLIA M S:Q . COULD YOU EXPLAIN WHY YOU SAY THERE IS  S I X  EFFECTSUPON BLACKS? WHAT IS  THE B A S IS  FOR YOUR CONCLUSIONS?A . THEY ARE ALL BASED IN A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT RESEARCHST U D IES WHICH SHOW THESE EFFECTS AND WHICH TO SOME DEGREE PROVIDE AN EXPLANATION FOR THEM.SHOULD I  —Q . Y E S .A . WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO, COACH? DO YOU WANT MB TOGO THROUGH THE L IS T ?Q . Y E S , P L E A SE .A . ALL R IG H T . THE DROP OUT RATES BEING HIGHER INSEGREGATED SCH O OLS, THE RESULT I  GOT IN A LARGE STUDY DID FOR THE U .S .  C I V I L  RIGHTS COMMISSION TEN YEARS AGO AND HAD GOTTEN AGAIN IN MY RECENT RESEARCH WHICH I S  FOCUSED IN HARTFORD CONNECTICUT.THE C I V I L  RIGHTS COMMISSION STUDY WAS A STUDY OF ADULTS L IV IN G  IN THE NORTH, BECAUSE IN  THOSE DAYS THERE WASN'T ANY DESEGREGATION IN THE SOUTH, COMPARES THOSE WHO HAD GONE TO DESEGREGATED SCHOOLS TO THOSE WHO HAD GONE TO SEGREGATED SCHOOLS IN EITHER THE NORTH OR SOUTH, AND IT  FOUND THE ONES THAT HAD GONE TO DESEGREGATED SCHOOLS WERE MORE L IK E L Y  TO F IN IS H  HIGH SCHOOL, SEGREGATED SCHOOLS MORE L IK E L Y  TO DROP OUT.THE RECENT STUDY I  AM DOING IS  FOCUSED, JU S T  F IN IS H E D ,



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IS  FOCUSED IN  HARTFORD, CONNECTICUT. IT  I S  IMPORTANT BECAUSE HARTFORD I S  ONE OF THE RARE CASES WHERE IT  I S  P O SSIB L E  TO DESEGREGATE USING RANDOMIZED ASSIGNMENT OF K I D S . WHAT HAPPENED I S  THAT HARTFORD I S  VIRTUALLY AN ALL BLACK PU B LIC SCHOOL SYSTEM , AND IN  1 9 6 0 , SOMETIME 1 9 6 6 , THE SUBURBS AGREED TO ACCEPT A SMALL NUMBER OF BLACK STUDENTS FROM HARTFORD. O RIGIN ALLY ONLY 2 6 6 . THEY LATER TOOK A THOUSAND. BUT AT THE BEGINNING SIN CE  THERE WERE LIT ER A LLY THOUSANDS OF STUDENTS WHO WOULD BE HAPPY TO GO TO THE SUBURBS, THE SCHOOL D IS T R IC T  DECIDED TO USE A LOTTERY TO SELECT THE 266 STUDENTS WHO DID GO . AND AT THE SAME TIME TO CARRY OUT A SEPARATE SECRET LOTTERY, AS IT  WERE, TO EAR MARK 266 OTHER K ID S , OR 300 K ID S TO WATCH FOR COMPARISON PURPO SES. ONCE THEY REPORTED THE FAVORABLE ACHIEVEMENT RESULTS THESE STUDENTS HAD A PAPER IN •68 OR '6 9 .  AND I  NOTICED JU S T  A FEW YEARS AGO THESE STUDENTS SHOULD BE GRADUATING FROM HIGH SCHOOL NCW. SO I  ASKED THE NATIONAL IN ST ITU TE OF EDUCATION, AND THEY PROVIDED FUNDS FOR A LARGE FOLLOW UP STUDY WHERE WE CHASED THROUGH THE SCHOOL RECORDS AND TRIED  TO FIND PRESENT AD D RESSES, INTERVIEWED PARENTS AND THEM. AND THAT STUDY I  AM VERY PERSUADED BY BECAUSE OF THE IN IT IA L  RANDOMNESS OF THE ASSIGNM ENT.IT  IS  IN THE PROCESS OF BEING PUBLISHED AS A REPORT BY THE RAND CORPORATION.I  THINK THE MAIN REASON WHY STUDENTS DROP OUT OF



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SEGREGATED SCHOOLS IS  TWO-FOLD. ONE, BECAUSE THERE IS  A CONCENTRATION OF K ID S WHO HAD ACADEMIC TROUBLE AND THEY SORT OF ENCOURAGE EACH OTHER TO Q U IT . THE SECOND I S  WHAT I  SA ID  ABOUT LO CU S, THE B E L IE F  THAT THEY REALLY MATTER, THAT THEIR FUTURE IS  NOT GOING TO BE THAT GOOD ANYWAY SO WHY GO TO SCHOOL. THE EXTERNAL LOCUS OF CONTROL.SIM ILA R  KINDS OF PATTERN SHOWS RESEARCH AND JU V E N IL E  DELINQUENCY. ALLEN AND WILSON DID A STUDY IN  OAKLAND C A L IF O R N IA . I  HAVE DONE THE RESEARCH THAT WAS TALKED ABOUT THAT CONSISTENTLY SHOWS EVEN WHEN YOU MATCH STUDENTS IN TERMS OF FAMILY BACKGROUND AS WELL AS EDUCATION AND THAT SORT OF THING THE STUDENTS WOULD, THE BLACK STUDENTS THAT GO TO SEGREGATED SCHOOLS ARE MORE L IK E L Y  TO GET IN TROUBLE WITH THE P O L IC E , MORE L IK E L Y  TO SAY THEY HAVE GOTTEN IN FIGH TS AS ADULTS THAN K ID S WHO WENT TO DESEGREGATED SCH O OLS.PARTLY IT  I S  AGAIN THE NOTIONS OF FA T A LISM . DOROTHY STITCHCOMB WROTE A BOOK THAT ANNALYZED WHITE K ID S IN A SMALL TOWN IN NORTHERN CA LIFO R N IA  IN  WHICH SHE SA ID  SCHOOL IS  L IK E  A CONTRACT WHERE THE TEACHER SAYS TO THE K ID , I  DON'T CARE IF  YOU ARE BIGGER THAN I  AM, S I T  DOWN AND SHUT U P, ONLY GO TO THE BATHROOM WHEN I  TELL YOU, AND IF  YOU DO THAT I  W ILL G IV E  YOU A FUTURE.NOW FOR MOST K ID S THAT MAKES SE N SE .THE COURT: MIGHT AS WELL HAVE BEEN A JU D G E .A . THERE ARE A LOT OF S IM IL A R IT IE S  BETWEEN YOUR JO B  AND



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M INE. BUT WHAT YOU DO WITH K ID S I S  FUNNY. I  WALKED INTO A CLA SS OF GRADUATE STUDENTS,  GROWN PEO PLE. AND I  S A ID , I  AH GOING TO DEMONSTRATE TO YOU WHAT SCHOOL IS  L IK E , BECAUSE I  W ILL TAKE YOUR P IC T U R E . I  WANT A PICTURE OF ALL STUDENTS.SO I  W ILL TAKE YOUR P IC T U R E . I  WON'T ASK YOUR P E R M ISSIO N . EVERYBODY SAT THERE AND SM ILED L IK E  THEY WERE SUPPOSED T O . I  S A ID , S E E , THE TEACHER W ILL DO ANYTHING TO YOU AND YOU S IT  THERE AND S M IL E .THE POINT IS  THAT STUDENTS AGREE TO DO THAT BECAUSE THEY SEE A FUTURE. I F  THEY DO, BUT THERE IS  SOME K ID S L IK E  IN  TH IS LOGGING TOWN THAT STITCHCOMB S T U D IE S , SOME K ID S DON'T SEE A FUTURE. THERE ARE ALSO SOME TIMES L IK E  DURING THE V IE T  NAM WAR WHEN THE TEACHER SAYS TO THE K ID S , S I T  DOWN SHUT U P, DO WHAT I  TELL YOU AND WE W ILL GRADUATE YOU AND SEND YOU TO V IE T  NAM. THEN ALL THE K ID S W ILL START R A IS IN G  HELL AND TAKING DRUGS. A PRETTY RATIONAL RESPONSE.BUT WITH BLACK K ID S IT  IS  SORT OF THAT SITU ATIO N  FOR MANY OF THEM. FROM THE B E G IN N IN G . BECAUSE YOU LOOK AROUND, YOU ARE IN T H IS  BLACK SEGREGATED SCHOOL, THAT I S  THE SYMBOL OF THE FACT OF YOU ARE NOT WANTED IN  S O C IE T Y , YOU LOOK AT EVERYONE ELSE WHO HASN 'T GOT GOOD JO B S  AND YOU S A Y , THE HELL WITH IT  AND START THROWING T H IN G S, TO PUT IT  CRUDELY. TH IS I S  NOT FASHIONABLE SO CIO LO G ICA L LANGUAGE. BUT THE POINT STRIPPED  OF ALL IT S  JARGON IS  IF  THE FUTURE LOOKS HOPELESS



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YOU BECOME R E B E LLIO U S, ANGRY. YOU START LOOKING FOR ALTERNATIVE WAYS TO BE A HERO RIGHT NOW INSTEAD OF W AITING AROUND. SO YOU TRY TO BEAT UP THE KID DOWN THE BLOCK, OR CARRY A GUN OR SOMETHING.THAT H IS SHOWN UP IN  THE STU D IES REPEATEDLY OF DESEGREGATION AND SEGREGATED SCH O OLS. I  THINK STITCH CO M B'S A N A LYSIS IS  VERY SOUND. THERE I S  ALSO THE CONCENTRATION PROBLEM. YOU PUT A LOT OF K ID S WITH THESE KINDS OF PROBLEMS TOGETHER AND THEY FEED EACH OTHER AND IT  MAKES THINGS WORSE.A THIRD AREA WHICH I S  SIM ILA R  I S  PREGNANCY. G IR L S  WHO DO NOT SEE COLLEG E, WHO DO NOT SEE GOOD JO B S  IN THEIR FUTURE, TUERE IS  NO POINT IN THEM POSTPONING CHILD BEAR IN G. BECAUSE YOU CAN BECOME A MOTHER RIGHT NOW AND HAVE THE PLEASURE OF THAT. AND THE STATUS THAT YOU GET FROM BEING A B IG  ADULT WITH YOUR OWN C H IL D .ONE RESEARCH STUDY OF BLACK G IR L S  FOR EXAMPLE SHOWED G IR L S  IN THE GENERAL TRACK HAD MORE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE THAN THE G IR L S  IN THE ACADEMIC TRACK, THE G IR L S  IN THE ACADEMIC TRACK HAD A FUTURE AND WERE W ILLING TO POSTPONE SOME OF THE PLEASURES OF ADULTHOOD BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO GET THAT FUTURE. A BRIGHT FUTURE I S  THE BEST CONTRACEPTIVE.THESE T H IN G S, OF COU RSE, ARE GOING TO AFFECT THE NEXT GENERATION, WHICH I S  WHAT I  AM GOING TO GET TO IN A MINUTE ABOUT WHY HAVING PARENTS OF THE PRESENT GENERATION OF K ID S WHO WERE AFFECTED BY SEGREGATION MATTERS TODAY.



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I  TALKED ABOUT COLLEGE. MOST OP THE COLLEGE RESEARCH HAS BEEN DONE BY ALEXANDRIA ASCOMB, WHO D IR ECTS THE HIGHER EDUCATION RESEARCH IN ST ITU TE AT U . C .  L . A . WHO COLLECTS A M ASSIVE AMOUNT OF DATA EVERY YEAR PAID FOR BY THE COLLEGES THEMSELVES. THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF STUDENTS ARE SURVEYED EVERY YEAR. HE JU S T  F IN ISH E D  A BOOK WITH H IS STAFF WHICH SHOWED BLACK STUDENTS FROM SEGREGATED SCHOOLS IN PREDOMINANTLY WHITE COLLEGES D IS L IK E  SCHOOL* THEY HAVE WORSE GRADES MORE L IK E L Y  TO Q U IT .A RESEARCH, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT AIRED THAT, FURTHER DONE AT PENN STATE U N IVER SITY SHOWS BLACK STUDENTS FROM SEGREGATED SCHOOLS HAVE LE SS CONTACT WITH WHITES WHILE THEY ARE AT CO LLEG E. AT PENNSYLVANIA STATE U N IV E R S IT Y , THEY COMPLAIN MORE ABOUT D ISC R IM IN A T IO N . I F  YOU ASK THEM I F  YOU ARE WERE GIVEN A WHITE ROOMMATE WOULD YOU ASK FOR A ROOM CHANGE THEY MORE THAN L IK E L Y  WOULD SAY Y E S . IN  THE SOUTH TH IS WAS ALWAYS M ITIGATED A B IT  BECAUSE YOU COULD ALWAYS GO TO A BLACK CO LLEG E. I F  YOU WERE TOO UNCOMFORTABLE AROUND W H ITES, NO E XPERIEN CE, NO S K IL L S  DEALING WITH WHITES YOU COULD ALWAYS GO TO A BLACK CO LLEG E. IN THAT SENSE IT  WAS EASIER  IN THE SOUTH THAN IT  WAS IN THE NORTU. BUT, OF COURSE, COLLEGE THE ST U D IES WITH WHITE C O LLEG ES, YOU TEND UP TO END UP WITH JO B S  THAT PAY NOT QUITE AS WELL AMD THAT SORT OF T H IN G . BLACK COLLEGES OFTEN ARE NOT AS STRONG EDUCATIONALLY AS WHITECOLLEGES



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THE PROBLEMS OF WHITE STUDENTS WITH TROUBLE IN CO LLEG E, SORT OF THE SAME KIND OF THE EFFECT OF EXTERNAL LOCUS CONTROL BEING F A T A L IS T IC  I S  THE EFFECT OF NOT HAVING FRIENDS WHEN YOU ARE IN CO LLEG E, THE EFFECTS OF SEEING D ISCR IM IN A T IO N  BEHIND EVERY TR E E. WELL, THERE IS  A LOT OF D ISCR IM IN A T IO N  THAT IS  FOR R E A L, I  DON'T MEAN TO M INIM IZE I T ,  THERE IS  SOME. BUT THE STUDENTS FROM DESEGREGATED SCHOOLS W ILL BE MORE TOLERANT OF WHAT IS  THERE AND W ILL G IV E  THE WHITE TEACHERS AND THE WHITE ADMINISTRATION THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. AND THE BLACK K ID S FROM SEGREGATED SCHOOLS W ON'T. Q . DOCTOR, WERE ANY OF THESE FIN D IN GS CONFIRMED BY YOURHARTFORD STUDY WITH RESPECT TO THE COLLEGE PERPETUATION OF DESEGREGATION?A . I  THINK ALL OF THEM WERE. THE HARTFORD STUDENTS WHOSTAYED IN  HARTFORD SCHOOLS WERE MORE LIK E LY  TO DROP OUT, THEY WERE MORE THAN DELINQUENT, THE WOMEN WERE MORE L IK E L Y  TO GET PREGNANT, THE BOYS HAD MORE D IF F IC U L T  IN COLLEG E.SOME OF THESE EFFECTS DON'T HOLD Q U ITE SO WELL FOR WOMEN. APPARENTLY BLACK WOMEN ARE NOT AS UPSET BY THE SO C IA L STRAIN OF DEALING WITH WHITES AS BLACK MALES AR E. IT  IS  PROBABLY, I  THINK GENERALLY WOMEN ARE SO C IA LLY  MORE SK ILLE D  INTER PERSONALLY THAN MEN OR BOYS A R E, SO IT  IS  PROBABLY A L IT T L E  EASIER  FOR THEM.BUT WITH THAT Q U A L IF IC A T IO N , ALL OF THE RESULTS ARE BORN OUT BY THE HARTFORD STUD Y.



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Q . I  INTERRUPTED YOU. YOU HAD TO ID EN T IFY ONE OTHEREFFECT OF THE S I X ,  THAT WAS EMPLOYMENT.A . Y E S .THE WHOLE PATTERN OF PROBLEMS RELATED TO SEGREGATION HERE IS  BLACK STUDENTS IN SEGREGATED SCHOOLS A SP IR E  TO , LE SS LIK E LY  TO A SP IR E  TO GOOD J O B S , P R O FE SSIO N A LS, JO B S ,MANAGERIAL JO B S . THEY ARE MORE L IK E L Y  TO A SP IR E  TO THE TRADITIONAL KINDS OF BLACK J O B S . FOR EXAMPLE, WORKING IN C IT Y  GOVERNMENT, ET CETERA. THAT IS  A TRADITIONAL PLACE YOU COULD G O . AND BLACKS IN SEGREGATED SCHOOLS W ILL TEND TO PREFER THAT TO WORKING IN PRIVATE INDUSTRY.AND SEVERAL STUD IES ABOUT FOUR DIFFERENT ONES HAVE SHOWN BLACK STUDENTS WHO DO A SP IR E  TO GOOD JO B S  OFTEN DO SO IN AN U N R EA LIST IC  WAY. THEY W ILL HAVE HIGH ASPIR A T IO N  FOR THE KIND OF JO B  THEY WANT, BUT NOT FOR THE —  FOR GOING TO CO LLEG E. IT  IS  IN EXTREME CASES SOME K ID S WANT TO BE A DOCTOR, BUT DON'T INTEND TO GO TO COLLEGE TO DO I T .  A REAL K ID  WHO IS  QUOTED AS WELL, I  AM GOING TO GO TO COLLEGE. EVEN I F  I  DON'T F IN IS H  HIGH SCHOOL, I  AM GOING TO GO TO COLLEGE,AS IF  THAT WAS REAL EASY TO DO. THAT KIND OF U N R EA LISTIC BLUE SKY FAN TASIZIN G I S ,  I  TH IN K , CH ARA CTERISTIC OF K ID S THAT DON'T WANT TO THINK ABOUT THE FUTURE BECAUSE IT  IS  TOO UNPLEASANT, SO THEY SORT OF MAKE IT  U P. SOME NICE MIDDLE CLASS KID W ILL SPEND A LOT OF TIME WORKING OUT IN LOVING DETAIL ALL OF THE THINGS HE W ILL ACCOMPLISH OVER THE NEXT FEW



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YEARS BECAUSE IT  SOUNDS L IK E  HE CAN DO.BLACK STUDENTS W ILL HAVE A NETWORK OP FRIENDS AND FRIENDS OF PARENTS AND SO FORTH WHO ARE LARGELY BLACK , WHICH MEANS THEY ARE NOT GOING TO FIND OUT ABOUT OPTIONS AND OPPORTUNITIES IN JO B S  THAT ARE PREDOMINANTLY W HITE.EMPLOYERS W ILL PREFER BLACKS FROM THESE AREAS SCH O OLS. T H IS IS  IN T E R E ST IN G . A NEW STUDY WE F IN ISH E D  AT JOHNS HOPKINS IN WHICH WE SURVEYED A NATIONAL SAMPLE OF EMPLOYERS, AND IN  THE MIDDLE OF THE QUESTIONNAIRE WE ASKED , IMAGINE YOU JU S T  HIRED T H IS PERSON, AND THE PERSON YOU JU S T  HIRED IS  MALE, 29 YEARS OLD, JAMES JO N E S , HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATE, ATTENDED A SUBURBAN HIGH SCHOOL KITH A GOOD REPUTATION. HE I S  BLACK . WHAT KIND OF JO B  WOULD YOU HAVE HIRED THAT PERSON FOR? HOW OLD WOULD YOU HAVE INTERVIEWED? WHO WOULD HAVE DONE IT ?  WHAT THE EMPLOYER D OESN 'T KNOW IS  THERE IS  IN FACT 40 DIFFERENT Q U ESTIO N N A IR ES, EACH ONE WITH A SLIG H TLY DIFFERENT PARAGRAPH, AND HALF THE TIME THE PARAGRAPH D ESCRIBES SOMEONE AND SAYS THEY ARE A HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATE FROM AN INTER —  FROM AN INNER C IT Y  SCHOOL.AND THE EMPLOYERS WHO GOT THAT FORM OF QUESTIONAIRE S A ID , WE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE HIRED THEM AND PICKED  BAD JO B S  ON THE WHOLE COMPARED TO H IE  ONES WHO GOT THE FORM THAT SA ID  T H IS BLACK MALE WHO GRADUATED FROM A SUBURBAN SCHOOL WITH A GOOD REPUTATION. THEY DON'T PAY NEARLY AS MUCH ATTENTION WHEN IT  I S  A WOMAN, BUT A BLACK MALE FROM INNER C IT Y  SCHOOL



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APPARENTLY SCARES THEM.I  THINK THE ONE CANDIDATE THAT HAS COMPETED AGAINST WHITES AND CAN SHOW HE CAN OPERATE IN  A WHITE WORLD, SO THEY PREFER THE SUBURBAN GRADUATE.I F  YOU DO GET THE JO B  AND YOU ARE FROM A SEGREGATED SCHOOL, YOU W ILL HAVE PROBABLY SOME MORE D IF F IC U L T Y  WITH THE JO B S BECAUSE YOU ARE MORE THAN LIK E L Y  TO HAVE A WHITE SU PE R V ISO R . AND TWO OR THREE STU D IES SHOW B LA CK S, FOR EXAMPLE ONE STUDY SHCWS BLACKS WHO HAVE WHITE SUPERVISORS AND WENT TO SEGREGATED SCHOOLS BEING MORE L IK E L Y  TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THEIR SUPERVISOR NOT L IK IN G  YOU THAN A BLACK WHO WENT TO AN INTEGRATED SCHOOL, AND ALSO HAD A WHITE SU P E R V ISO R . IN THE PENN STATE STUD Y, SIM PLY WE ASKED THE STUDENTS IF  YOU HAD A WHITE SUPERVISO R WOULD YOU NOT L IK E  THAT, AND THE ONES WHO HAD GONE TO A SEGREGATED HIGH SCHOOL, THESE ARE K ID S IN PENN STATE U N IV E R S IT Y , A WHITE CO LLEG E, I F  THEY WENT TO A SEGREGATED HIGH SCHOOL THEY I  WOULD SAY THEY WOULDN'T L IK E  HAVING A WHITE SU PER V ISO R .MY C I V I L  RIGHTS COMMISSION STUDY FOUND THAT BLACKS WHO WENT TO SEGREGATED SCHOOLS CHANGE JO B S MORE OFTEN AS ADULTS. AND CHANGING JO B S IS  A BAD THING FOR GETTING A CAREER ORGANIZED. IT  IS  ASSOCIATED WITH HAVING THE WORST JO B S . YOU HAVE TO STAY WITH ONE JO B  AND MOVE SMARTLY WHEN YOUR CAREER CHANGES.Q . THOSE ARE THE S I X  EFFECTS THAT YOU ID E N T IF IE D  THAT



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OCCURRED TO BLACKS WHO ATTEND COLLEG E. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT LARGE EFFECTS OR SMALL EFFECTS?A . THEY VA R Y, BUT ON A WHOLE THEY ARE PRETTY GOOD S IZ E D .I  CONSIDER THE HARTFORD STUDY THAT THE EFFECT OF SEGREGATION WAS TO TAKE OUT ABOUT A THIRD OF THE K ID S WHO WOULD HAVE GRADUATED FROM COLLEGE, ABOUT A THIRD OF THE COLLEGE GRADUATES WON'T GRADUATE FROM COLLEGE IF  THE SCHOOLS ARE SEGREGATED.THE HIGH SCHOOL DROP OUT RATE EFFECTS ARE PRETTY B I G . EMPLOYMENT EFFECTS ARE QUITE LARGE.SO ON THE WHOLE, THESE ARE PRETTY STRONG E F F E C T S. I  AM GRADUALLY, AS I  AM DOING TH IS FOR MORE AND MORE YE A R S, GETTING USED TO THE IDEA THAT SEGREGATION I S  A VERY POWERFUL T H IN G . YOU NORMALLY THINK OF D ISCR IM IN A T IO N  AS BEING THE B IG  PROBLEM WITH RACE RELATIONS OR WITH BLACK ~  BUT THE LAST TEN OR 15 YEARS THE AMOUNT OF D ISCR IM IN A T IO N  ON THE PART OF WHITE EMPLOYERS AND SO  FORTH HAS DECLINED AND COLLEGES ARE OPEN AND SO FORTH,  AND YET A LOT OF BLACK POVERTY PROBLEMS HAVE NOT GONE AWAY VERY F A S T . I  AM BEGINNING TO TURN, AND TH IS RESEARCH HAS STRONG, STRONG EFFECTS OF SEGREGATION, IS  BEGINNING TO MAKE ME THINK THAT IS  WHERE THE PROBLEM I S  THAT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO WORK ON.Q . NOW, DOCTOR, ARE YOU SAYING THAT BLACK SCHOOLS AREIN FE R IO R ?A . Y E S , I  SUPPOSE I  AM.



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NOW, LET ME QUALIFY THAT. THE BEST P R IN C IP L E  THAT I  KNOW OF I S  A P R IN CIP A L IN  CA LIFO R N IA  WHO I S  BLACK. AND I  AM CERTAIN THAT BLACK TEACHERS ARE CAPABLE OF TEACHING WELL.AND BLACK SUPERINTENDANTS ARE CAPABLE OF SUPERINTENDING SCHOOL SYSTEM S. BUT NOTHING THEY CAN DO CAN CREATE A CLASSROOM WHICH I S N 'T  ALL BLACK. AN ALL BLACK CLASSROOM BY IT S  VERY NATURE IS  GOING TO PROVIDE YOU WITH NO EXPERIENCE DEALING WITH W HITES, AND WITH NO REASON TO B E LIE V E  IN  YOUR OWN FUTURE, AND NO S K IL L S  DEALING WITH W HITES. IT  ISCOMPLICATED BY THE FACT THERE IS  GOING TO BE MORE POVERTY IN*THAT CLASSROOM THAN TOERE WOULD BE IN AN AVERAGE CLASSROOM,SO IN  THAT SENSE I  SUPPOSE IT  IS  IN F E R IO R .Q . YOU SA ID  THERE WERE THREE OTHER EFFECTS THAT OCCURREDTO BOTH WHITE AND BLACKS?A . I  TALKED ABOUT CONTACT. THERE IS  A WHOLE S E R IE S  OFSTUD IES WHICH SHOW THAT AFTER YOU F IN IS H  HIGH SCHOOL THE STUDENTS WHO ATTENDED SEGREGATED SCHOOLS W ILL TEND TO HAVE LE SS CONTACT WITH STUDENTS OF THE O PPOSITE R A CE. WHITES AND BLACK S. IT  I S  A BLOW TO COLLEGE STUDENTS WHO ARE L IV IN G  AWAY FROM HOME THOSE WHO CAME FROM A SEGREGATED SCHOOL W ILL NOT A SSO CIATE WITH OTHER RACES AS MUCH AS THOSE THAT CAME FROM DESEGREGATED SCH O OLS.IN TERMS OF R ACIAL A T T IT U D E S, PROBABLY ODDLY ENOUGH, HAS NOT BEEN A GREAT DEAL OF WORK DONE ON THE EFFECTS OF SEGREGATION ON WHITE RACIAL A T T IT U D ES. PROBABLY THE BEST



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STUDY WAS DONE FOR THE C I V I L  RIGHTS COMMISSION BY THOMAS PREDDINGER IN WHICH HE SHOWED SOME CLEAR EFFECTS IN TERMS OF NOT WANTING TO ASSO CIATE WITH BLACKS AND B E IN G , SORT OF THINKING BLACKS ARE IN F E R IO R .THE PENN STATE U N IVE R SIT Y STUDY SERVING WHITE COLLEGE STUDENTS, THOSE THAT COME FROM ALL WHITE SCHOOLS SA ID  THEY WOULD BE UNHAPPY HAVING A BLACK SU P E R V ISO R . AND I  DON’ T THINK IT  GOT EXACTLY THE SAME RESULT YOU GOT FOR B LA CK S, BUT WHICH TH IS TIME WHITES BEING UNCOMFORTABLE WITH A BLACK SU PER V ISO R .IN  TERMS OF HOUSING, THERE IS  A WHOLE VARIETY OF EFFECTS AND ST U D IES HERE, BOTH WHITES AND BLACKS WHO WENT TO SEGREGATED SCHOOLS W ILL PREFER L IV IN G  IN SEGREGATED NEIGHBORHOODS. WHITES W ILL OBJECT TO HAVING BLACKS MOVE INTO THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD, BLACKS W ILL BE LE SS INTERESTED IN  MOVING INTO A WHITE NEIGHBORHOOD OR INTO A INNTEGRATED NEIGHBORHOOD. IN  A D D IT IO N , OF COU RSE, BLACKS WHO COME OUT OF SEGREGATED SCHOOLS ARE GOING TO HAVE LOWER INCOM ES, LESS EDUCATION THAN THE POOR GENERALLY BECAUSE OF JO B  OPPORTUNITIES AND SO FORTH. SO THEY W ILL LE SS L IK E L Y  BE ABLE TO AFFIRM I T .  MY C I V I L  RIGHTS COMMISSION STUDY SHOWED THAT BLACKS FROM SEGREGATED SCHOOLS WERE LE SS L IK E L Y  TO HAVE THEIR FINANCES WELL ORGANIZED. SAVIN GS ACCOUNTS, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT IS  PART OF THE FATALISM . WHY TRY TO SAVE MONEY, WHY DON’ T YOU BLOW I T .  THE KIND OF EMOTIONAL RESPONSE. SO FOR THOSE REASONS THEY



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ARE LE SS LIK E L Y  TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD I T .THE OTHER THING THAT HAPPENS IS  THAT A SEGREGATED SCHOOL SYSTEM TENDS TO CREATE A HOUSING MARKET THAT IS  ALSO SEGREGATED. FOR EXAMPLE, ONE STUDY LOOKS AT METROPOLITAN AREAS WHERE THE SCHOOLS ARE SEGREGATED VERSUS METROPOLITAN AREAS WHERE THE SCHOOLS ARE DESEGREGATED.RICHMOND I S  ONE OF THE AREAS THAT YOU STUDY RICHMOND AS COMPARED TO CHARLOTTE. THERE I S  A GOOD DEAL LE SS MOVEMENT OF BLACKS INTO THE SUBURBS, WHITES STAYING IN INTEGRATED NEIGHBORHOODS IN THE C IT Y  IN RICHMOND THAN THERE IS  IN CHARLOTTE. THE REAL ESTATE AGENTS ADVERTISING IN THE NEWSPAPER IN RICHMOND W ILL MORE L IK E L Y  NAME THE NAME OF THE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL BECAUSE THEY W ILL USE THE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL AS A QUE, T H IS IS  A GOOD NEIGHBORHOOD, A WHITE SCHOOL. THEY WILL DO THAT L E SS IN CHARLOTTE. THAT I S  TRUE OF THE OTHER 12 C IT I E S  THAT ARE ST U D IE D .AT THE SAME T IM E , INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, ANOTHER STUDY THAT GOES ALONG WITH THAT WAS A STUDY OF THE CENTRAL C I T I E S . AND OF COURSE WHEN YOU STUDY THE CENTRAL C IT I E S  RICHMOND IS  A DESEGREGATED CENTRAL W HITE. WHAT WHITES IT  HAS IN THE PU B LIC SCHOOLS ARE REASONABLY WELL SPREAD AROUND, SO WHEN YOU COMPARE FOR EXAMPLE RICHMOND TO A C IT Y  WHICH WAS NOT DESEGREGATED IT  TURNS OUT THERE IS  MORE DESEGREGATION OF HOUSING IN THE C IT Y  WHICH HAS DESEGREGATED SCH O O LS. AND THOSE EFFECTS ARE Q UITE STRONG ACTUALLY. THEY MADE A CHANGE



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IN —  THE RATE CHANGED IN DESEGREGATION WAS IN HOUSING.HOUSING WAS GETTING SLOWLY BETTER IN THE LAST 30 Y E A R S. IN THE LAST TEN YEARS WHERE THERE WAS DESEGREGATION HOUSING RAN —  THE RATE OF CHANGE INCREASED THREE TIMES AS F A ST . YOU COULD REALLY SEE THAT IN  NORFOLK. I  STUDIED THAT IN  D E T A IL .DURING THE ' 7 0 ' S  THERE WAS A MARKED INCREASE IN THE AMOUNT OF DESEGREGATION IN HOUSING IN NORFOLK. I  HAVEN'T DONE THAT KIND OF STUDY FOR RICHMOND. THERE WAS A CONSIDERABLE CHANGE IN  THE ' 7 0 ' S IN RICHMOND, BUT ONLY IN  THE C IT Y . BETWEEN THE C IT Y  AND THE SUBURBS THERE IS  S T IL L  A STRONG PATTERN OF SEGREGATION.THE COURT* TALKING ABOUT NORFOLK NCW?A . RICHMOND. IN  RICHMOND THERE HAS BEEN AN IMPROVEMENT.I  DON’ T KNOW AS GREAT AS NORFOLK. NORFOLK WAS LARGE, BUT IN RICHMOND THERE WAS IMPROVEMENT WITHIN THE C IT Y , BUT NOT BETWEEN THE C I T I E S , AS GREAT A PATTERN OF IMPROVEMENT BETWEEN C IT Y  AND SUBURBS. BLACKS ARE NOT MOVING TO THE SUBURBS AS F A S T , WHITES ARE NOT STAYING IN THE C IT Y  AS FAST IN RICHMOND AS THEY ARE IN CHARLOTTE. AND THAT I S ,  I  AM SU R E, THE CAU SE. THE CHARLOTTE METRO AREA HAS INTEGRATED SCH O OLS, AND AS AN OVERALL SYSTEM RICHMOND, AS I  SAY I S ,  SEGREGATED S O , I  THINK THAT COVERS ALL THREE OF THEM.Q . YOU SA ID  IN YOUR TESTIMONY THAT THERE WERE SOMEV E ST IG E S OF PRESENT EFFECTS FROM THE PAST EFFECTS OP THE KIND THAT YOU HAVE JU S T  D ESCR IB E D . THE F IR S T  ONE YOU MENTIONED



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WAS THAT THE PRESENT SEGREGATION IS  THE V E S T IG E . CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY YOU SA ID  THAT?A . Y E S . I  CAN SEE THE FOLLOWING REASON WHY THE PRESENT,WELL, F IR S T  OF ALL BY SEGREGATION WHAT I  MEAN HERE I S  THAT BLACKS ATTEND RICHMOND PU B LIC  SCHOOLS AND WHITES ATTEND THE SUBURBAN P U B LIC  SCH O OLS. IT  I S  THAT D ISP A R IT Y  WHICH CAUSES THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOLS TO BE IN EFFECT SEGREGATED. SO WHY ARE THE WHITE SCHOOL CHILDREN ALL IN THE SUBURBS LARGELY, AND THE BLACK CHILDREN LARGELY IN  THE C IT Y ?WELL, F IR S T  OF ALL I  THINK BEFORE 1971 THE SCHOOLS WERE SEGREGATED. BLACKS WOULD HAVE BEEN DISCOURAGED BY THAT SEGREGATION FROM MOVING INTO THE SUBURBS. I F  BLACKS STAYED IN THE CENTRAL C IT Y  WHERE THERE WAS A BLACK SCHOOL D IS T R IC T  THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE IN THEY WOULD HAVE FIL L E D  UP THE HOUSING IN THE C IT Y  AND MARKET FORCES WOULD HAVE ESSEN TIALLY PUSHED WHITES INTO THE SUBURBS. THEN IN 1971 SCHOOL DESEGREGATION COMES ALONG AND SCHOOL DESEGREGATION I S  OF COURSE IT S E L F  AN E FFECT , IN  E FFECT , A SEGREGATION. AND IT  CREATES T H IS TRAUMA L IK E  SOME HUGE TRUCK. K ID S WITHDRAWING FROM SCHOOL IMMEDIATELY IN THE NEXT TWO OR THREE Y E A R S. AND THAT WITHDRAWAL IS  BECAUSE WHITES HAVE BEEN TAUGHT BY THE GOVERNMENT THAT SEGREGATION WAS WHAT YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO DO. YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO SEND YOUR KID  TO A WHITE SCHOOL. IN ADDITION WHEN DESEGREGATION STARTS THE K ID S WOULD HAVE NOT BEEN PREPARED, THE WHITE K ID S WOULD HAVE NOT BEEN PREPARED



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FOR DESEGREGATION IN TERMS OF THEIR A T T IT U D E S. THE BLACK K ID S WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PREPARED EITHER IN TERMS OF THEIR ATTITUDES OR THEIR ACADEM ICS. T H IS THEN GOES ON FROM 1971 TO NOW. THE SCHOOLS IN RICHMOND ARE LABELED AS BLACK SCHOOLS BY EVERYONE. SOME LARGE FRACTION OF THE BLACK P R IN C IP A L S L IV E  IN  THE SUBURBS. AND YOU GET THE IM PRESSION IN TALKING WITH PEO PLE, BOTH WHITE AND BLACK , YOU KNCW, ONE SHOULD AVOID PU B LIC SCH O OLS. YOU S T IL L  HAVE A LARGE NUMBER OF BLACK FA M ILIE S WHO ARE AFRAID TO MOVE INTO THE SUBURBS, FEEL THEY WOULDN'T BE COMFORTABLE THERE. IN THE COURSE OF DOING RESEARCH I  INTERVIEWED A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE DAYS I  WAS DOWN HERE, AND IT  I S  INTERESTING TO TALK TO A BLACK ADULT WHO TALKS ABOUT BEING UNCOMFORTABLE, WOULDN'T BE COMFORTABLE L IV IN G  IN THE SUBURBS TALKING ABOUT H IS  DAUGHTER WHO IS  THE PRESIDENT OF AN ALL WHITE CLUB EXCEPT FOR H ER SELF, WHO IS  QUITE HAPPY TO B E , YOU KNOW, BOSSING AROUND ALL OF THESE WHITE K ID S . AND THE CONTRAST BETWEEN WHAT THE PARENT IS  COMFORTABLE WITH AND WHAT THE CH ILD  I S  ABLE TO DO IS  QUITE S T R IK IN G . IT  I S  THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ONE GENERATION AND THE NEXT. BUT THAT IS  SOMEBODY WHO IS  L IV IN G  IN A SUBURB. D ESPIT E  DISCOM FORT, THEIR CH ILD  CAN GET THAT DEGREE OF SCHOOLING.S O , THE INNER C IT Y  SCHOOLS ARE LABELED, WHITES ARE AVOIDING THEM, WHITES V7ERE DRIVEN OUT OF THEM BY SEGREGATION. AND THEN BY THE FLIGH T FOLLOWING THE DESEGREGATION OF SCHOOLS



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IN  * 7 1 .  AND TODAY THERE IS  TH IS STANDARD WIDESPREAD B E L IE F  I F  YOU ARE WHITE YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE SUBURB SCHOOL, SO FA M ILIE S MOVING TO RICHMOND WILL BE TOLD BY REAL ESTATE AGENTS YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO L IV E  IN THE SUBURBS, DON’ T L IV E  IN THE C IT Y . THAT IS  WHAT I S  HAPPENING. I  THINK IT  IS  QUITE STRONG.Q . DOCTOR, DID YOU REVIEW SOME OF THE E X H IB IT S BY THESCHOOL BOARD ON THE CENSUS?A . Y E S .Q . WHAT D ID  YOU CONCLUDE?A . IT  LOOKED TO ME AS IF  THERE WASN’ T A SIN G LE  CENSUSTRACT IN TIIE C IT Y  WHICH WAS INTEGRATED. IT  LOOKS L IK E  EVERY CENSUS TRACT HAD MORE BLACKS THAN W HITES. VERY D EPR ESSIN G .Q . DOCTOR, I F  RICHMOND HAD BEEN 60 PERCENT BLACK IN  '7 1WITHOUT A HISTORY OF SEGREGATION, WHAT WOULD THE EFFECT HAVE BEEN ON WHITE FLIG H T ?A . WELL, THAT I S ,  OF COURSE, THE Q U ESTIO N . WHICH IS  HCWMUCH OF T H IS I S  DUE TO THAT IS S U E  OF SEGREGATION. IT  IS  A HARD QUESTION TO ANSWER BECAUSE THERE IS  NO SCHOOL D IS T R IC T  IN THE UNITED STATES THAT I  KNOW OF WHICH HAD A LARGE BLACK PROPORTION AND NO HISTORY OF SEGREGATION. I  DON’ T KNOW, I  MEAN, YOU LAWYERS FOR THE N . A . A . C . P . I  THINK WON EVERY C A S E , VIRTUALLY EVERY CASE OF ANY IMPORTANCE. THERE IS  NO NORTHERN SCHOOL D IS T R IC T  WHICH DOESN 'T HAVE A HISTORY OF ILLEG A L SEGREGATION, SO THERE IS  NOTHING TO COMPARE IT  T O .



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YOU HAVE TO IMAGINE IN  YOUR HEAD. BUT THE SCHOOLS WON'T HAVE BEEN 60 PERCENT BLACK I F  THERE HAD BEEN NO HISTORY OF SEGREGATION, BECAUSE THOSE B LA CK S, A LOT OF THOSE WHO HAVE LIV E D  IN THE SUBURBS HAVE MOVED THERE IN 1910 OR 1 9 2 0 , IF  THERE HAD BEEN NO HISTORY OF SEGREGATED SCH O OLS.IN  A D D IT IO N , ALL THESE FACTORS ABOUT WHITES BEING UNPREPARED TO HAVE THEIR CH ILD  GO TO A DESEGREGATED SCHOOL, WHITE CHILDREN BEING UNPREPARED, BLACK CHILDREN BEING UNPREPARED TO GO TO SCHOOLS WITH W HITES, ALL OF THOSE FACTORS ARE A RESULT OF SEGREGATION.THE ONLY THING I  CAN THINK OF TO TRY TO THINK IT  THROUGH I S  TO THINK ABOUT SOME PLACE WHICH H ASN 'T HAD DESEGREGATION OVER THE LAST DECADE. A GOOD EXAMPLE IS  SAY WILMINGTON OR L O U S IV IL L E . FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS THOSE TOO TOWNS, C IT I E S  BOTH HAVE A HISTORY OF SEGREGATIO N , BUT FOR THE LAST DECADE THEY HAVE HAD DESEGREGATED SCH O OLS. SUPPOSE YOU, SUPPOSE RICHMOND IN 1971 HAD LOOKED L IK E  WILMINGTON OR L O U S IV IL L E  LOOKS IN 1 9 8 5 . I F  RICHMOND HAD LOOKED L IK E  THAT IN  1971 WOULD YOU HAVE GOTTEN WHITE FLIG H T ?A . WELL, NO BECAUSE YOU WON'T GET WHITE FLIGH T INL O U S IV IL L E  OR WILMINGTON OVER THE NEXT TEN YE A R S. WILMINGTON HOUSE P R IC E S ARE GOING UP FASTER THAN IN THE SUBURBS.SO IT  SEEMS TO ME AS I  THINK TH IS PROCESS THROUGH, I  C A N 'T  DO IM P IR IC A L  RESEARCH BECAUSE I  DON'T HAVE A SCHOOL D IS T R IC T  WITH NO HISTORY OF DESEGREGATION ANYWHERE IN TOE



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COUNTRY, BUT AS I  THINK IT  THROUGH I  AM CONVINCED I  THINK IT  I S  L O G IC A L .Q . NOW, DOCTOR, THE NEXT PRESENT E F F E C T , THE PASTDESEGREGATION THAT YOU ID E N T IF IE D  WAS THE EFFECT OF THE LINGERING EFFECTS OF SEGREGATION UPON CHILDREN BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS WENT TO SEGREGATED SCH O OLS. COULD YOU EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEANT BY THAT?A . Y E S . AS I  STARTED TRACING TH IS THROUGH LOOKING AT THERESEARCH OF THE EFFECTS OF SEGREGATION ON PARENTS AND THEN ASKING WHAT WOULD THAT DO TO THE CH ILD REN , IT  SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU CAN —  THAT ALL OF THOSE THINGS THAT HAPPENED TO PARENTS WHEN THEY WENT TO SEGREGATED SCHOOLS HAVE AN UNFAVORABLE IMPACT ON C H IL D . THE FACT THAT A PARENT HAS GOT POOR ACHIEVEMENT, POOR LEARN IN G, MEANS THAT THEY ARE LE SS SK ILLE D  AT HELPING A CH ILD  DURING PRE-SCHOOL YEARS TEACHING READING AND STUFF AT HOME. IT  MEANS THEY W ILL BE L E SS ABLE TO HELP THEIR CH ILD  ACADEMICALLY DURING SUMMERS WHEN THERE I S  ALWAYS A LOT OF LO SSES IN LEARNING FOR POOR MINORITY K ID S . CA N 'T  HELP THE K ID S WITH HOME WORK. THOSE ARE DIRECT EFFECTS OF THE PARENTS’ LOW ACHIEVEMENT. THE FACT THAT PARENTS ARE MORE L IK E L Y  TO BE HIGH SCHOOL DROP OUTS MEANS THAT THERE W ILL BE A MODEL FOR THE K ID S TO DROP OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL. PARENTS W ILL BE L E SS ENRAGED WHEN THEIR CH ILD  MUTTERS ABOUT MAYBE HE W ILL Q U IT HIGH SCHOOL.THE FACT THAT THE PARENTS THEMSELVES ARE L IK E L Y  TO



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HAVE SOME D IF F IC U L T Y  WITH THE PO LICE IN THEIR BACKGROUND. F IR S T  OF A L L , THAT THE PARENTS ARE NOT GOING TO BE SK ILLE D  IN HELPING THEIR CHILD LEARN TO DEAL WITH THE AUTHORITY FIGURES AT SCHOOL. BECAUSE THEY ALWAYS HAD TROUBLE DEALING WITH AUTHORITY F IG U R E S .THE PARENTS W ILL HAVE TROUBLE DEALING WITH TEACHERS.I  KNOW FOR EXAMPLE ONE BLACK P R IN C IP A L  WHO ROUTINELY HAS A CODE WITH HER SECRETARY SO SHE COULD ASK HER SECRETARY SU RR EPTITIO U SLY TO CALL THE PO LICE ANY TIME SHE IS  INTERVIEW ING A PARENT. THAT IS  ONE OF THE L IT T L E  P R IC E S YOU PAY OF WORKING IN A SEGREGATED SCHOOL SYSTEM I S  THAT YOU HAVE THESE PARENTS THAT HAVE D IF F IC U L T Y  IN DEALING WITH AUTHORITY F IG U R E S .IF  YOU HAVE PARENTS WHO BORE CHILDREN E A R L IE R , THEN THEY ARE BY D E F IN IT IO N  LE SS MATURE, LE SS ABLE TO DO PARENTING. THAT IS  GOING TO HAVE AN EFFECT ON ACHIEVEMENT. EACH OF THESE EFFECTS IS  L IK E L Y  TO HAVE A D IRECT EFFECT IN THE SENSE THAT A PARENT WITH A HISTORY OF P O LICE  D IF F IC U L T Y  W ILL A HAVE A CH ILD  WITH THE SAME D IF F IC U L T Y , AND LESS COMPLEX E F F E C T S , TOO. A PARENT WITH PO LICE D IF F IC U L T Y  IN THEIR OWN HISTORY W ILL HAVE A CH ILD  WITH ACHIEVEMENT PROBLEMS BECAUSE THE RELATIO N SH IP WITH THE TEACHER AND OF HOME WORK AND THAT SORT OF THING WILL GET SCREWED U P. OR I F  YOUR MOTHER IS  QUITE YOUNG, THAT W ILL AFFECT THE MOTHER'S A B IL IT Y  TO HELP YOU WITH SCHOOL WORK.



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I F  THE PARENT DOESN 'T GO TO CO LLEG E, THAT MEANS PARENTS ARE IN NO PO SIT IO N  TO G IV E  A CH ILD  ADVICE WHAT IT  IS  L IK E  TO GO TO COLLEG E, WHERE YOU GO , THAT SORT OF TH IN G . IF  A PARENT HAS A BAD JO B , THE PARENT C A N 'T  G IV E  YOU GOOD ADVICE HOW TO GET A GOOD JO B . THE PARENT I S  NOT A MODEL OP WHAT YOU WANT TO BE L IK E  WHEN YOU GROW U P. I F  THE PARENT IS  POOR, YOU WILL GROW UP IN  A POOR FA M ILY. THAT W ILL HURT YOUR ACHIEVEMENT BECAUSE YOU WON'T HAVE RESOURCES AT HOME, AND SO AMD THAT SORT OF TH IN G .IT  CONTINUES THROUGH THE NINE YARDS, I F  PARENTS HAVE NO CONTACT WITH W HITES, MINORITY PARENTS NO CONTACT WITH WHITES THAT MEANS YOU DON'T HAVE A WHITE NETWORK THAT YOU CAN U S E . YOU CANNOT GO HOME AND TALK TO SOME FRIEND OF YOUR MOTHER'S ABOUT WHAT IT  IS  L IK E  TO GO TO U . V . A . ,  BECAUSE YOUR MOTHER D O ESN 'T HAVE ANY FRIENDS THAT WENT TO U . V . A . THAT IS  WORTH A LO T.SAME A P P L IE S  TO JO B S , OF COURSE.IF  YOUR PARENTS HAVE UNFAVORABLE R ACIAL A TT IT U D ES, AFRAID OF WHITES AND THINKS WHITES ARE R A C IS T , EXPECT D ISCR IM IN A T IO N  EVERYWHERE THAT IS  POOR, THAT I S  WHERE YOU P IC K  UP THAT. THAT IS  A BAD ATTITUDE TO TAKE INTO SCHOOL.AND THEN YOU GO TO SCHOOL WITH W HITES, AND THE WHITE K ID S PARENTS ARE TELLING THEM THE SAME TH IN G . SO WHITE KID S A R EN 'T ALL THAT WONDERFUL TO HANG OUT WITH ANYWAY. IF  THE PARENT IS  CHOOSING AND BEING PUSHED INTO SEGREGATED HOUSING,



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THEN THE CONCENTRATION, GANGS ON THE BLOCK AND ALL THE PROBLEMS THAT COME FROM L IV IN G  IN A GANG NEIGHBORHOOD, THAT AFFECTS ACHIEVEMENT AND CHANCES OF DROPPING OUT AND AFFECTS YOUR CHANCES OF GETTING PREGNANT, ALL OF THESE T H IN G S. SO IT  I S  A COMPLETE SET OF FACTS THAT ALL THE BAD THINGS THAT HAPPENED TO YOUR PARENTS TO MAKE YOUR PARENTS BAD PARENTS.Q . ARE YOU SA Y IN G , DOCTOR, THAT BLACK PARENTS, MANY OFWHOM WENT TO SEGREGATED SCH O OLS, CANNOT BE GOOD PARENTS?A . NO. NO, I  AM NOT. OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE A LOT OFPARENTS WITH ALL KINDS OF HARDSHIPS IN THEIR BACKGROUND WHO BECOME WONDERFUL PARENTS, AND A LOT OF PARENTS WITH SEEMING PROSPERITY AND EVERYTHING GOING FOR THEM ARE TERRIBLE PARENTS.EVERY PARENT, EVERY PERSON HAS BURDENS FROM THEIR CHILDHOOD. I  AM SAYING SEGREGATION IS  A BURDEN L IK E  THAT. MIDDLE CLASS PARENTS, BLACK PARENTS FROM DESEGREGATED SCHOOLS AND OTHER KINDS OF BURDENS PERHAPS, BUT SEGREGATION IS  A BURDEN THAT DOES MAKE IT  HARDER TO DO YOUR JO B  OF BEING A PARENT. D O ESN 'T MAKE YOU A BAD PERSON, AND D OESN 'T MAKE YOU A BAD PARENT, BUT IT  G IV E S  YOU A B IG  OBSTACLE TO WORRY W ITH. Q . TEACHERS, WHITE OR BLACK TEACHERS WHO HAD A SEGREGATEDSCHOOLING HAVE A BURDEN, ALSO ?A . Y E S . THE BLACK PARENT AND BLACK TEACHERS MORE THANL IK E L Y  WENT TO A BLACK CO LLEG E, LIK E LY  TO HAVE SOME ACHIEVEMENT D IF F IC U L T IE S  THEMSELVES, PERHAPS LANGUAGE



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D IF F IC U L T IE S  BECAUSE OF SUBCULTURAL D IFFERENCES IN LANGUAGE. THEY W ILL TEND TO HAVE THEMSELVES RATHER NEGATIVE ATTITUDES ABOUT JO B  CHANCES FOR THEMSELVES IN THE WHITE WORLD OR JO B  CHANCES FOR THEIR K ID S THAT W ILL AFFECT THE K ID S . INSTEAD OF BEING O P T IM IS T IC  THEY W ILL BE P E S S IM IS T IC . WHITE TEACHERS W ILL TEND TO COME INTO THE SCHOOL PR EJU D ICED  AS A RESULT OF THEIR BACKGROUND. AND THE MORE TEACHING THEY DID IN SEGREGATED SCHOOLS THE MORE PR EJU D ICED  THEY W ILL B E . THEY WILL LEARN IT  ON THE JO B . AT LEAST THEY W ILL NOT UNLEARN THEIR SEGREGATED CHILDHOOD ON THE JO B  IF  THEY TAUGHT IN SEGREGATED SCHOOLS.I F  PARENTS A R E, IF  TEACHERS ARE P R E JU D IC E D , THAT IS  ASSOCIATED WITH THEM HAVING LOW EXPECTATIONS FOR BLACK STUDENTS, AND I F  YOU HAVE LOW EXPECTATIONS FOR BLACK STUDENTS, THAT I S  ASSOCIATED WITH LOW ACHIEVEMENT FOR BLACK STUDENTS. IN  GENERAL WHEN YOU HAVE PR EJU D ICED  TEACHERS YOU GET WHITE K ID S WITH MORE UNFAVORABLE RACIAL A TT IT U D ES. THEY WILL P IC K  UP THE TEACH ER 'S A T T IT U D ES, BLACK AND WHITE K ID S THAT DON'T ASSO CIATE WITH EACH OTHER IN SCHOOL AS MUCH. YOU GET BLACK K ID S WHO SAY THEY DON'T L IK E  SCHOOL. BLACK K ID S WHO SAY I  FEEL L IK E  I  DON'T BELONG IN THE SCHOOL. THAT I S  A RESPONSE TO A —  YOU ARE ASKED THE Q U ESTIO N , DO YOU FEEL L IK E  YOU DON'T BELONG IN THE SCHOOL, YES OR NO? K ID S WITH TEACHERS —  I  D ID  T H IS RESEARCH. THE I  WAY DID IT  WAS ASK THE WHITE K ID S WHETHER THE TEACHERS WERE P R E JU D IC E D . I F  THE



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WHITE K ID S IN THE SCHOOL SA ID  THAT THE TEACHER —  I  D ID N 'T  DO IT  R IG H T , SO RRY.I  ASKED THE WHITE K ID S WHETHER THE TEACHERS IN THEIR SCHOOL LIK ED  INTEGRATION OR NOT. AND I F  THE WHITE K ID S SA ID  THAT THEIR TEACHERS D ID N 'T  L IK E  INTEGRATION, THEN THE BLACK K ID S IN THE SCHOOL WOULD S A Y , I  FEEL L IK E  I  DON'T BELONG IN SCHOOL. OR I  FEEL L IK E  I  DON'T L IK E  THE SCHOOL, AND THEY WOULD HAVE LOWER ACHIEVEMENT TEST SCO R E S.BLACK K ID S ARE VERY S E N S IT IV E  TO THE RACIAL CLIMATE IN THE SCHOOL.FOR BLACK K ID S THE WAY IN WHICH WHITES TREAT THEM,WHAT THEY THINK WHITES THINK OF THEM IS  ABSOLUTELY ESSEN TIAL TO THEIR WHOLE L IF E  BECAUSE IT  I S  A WHITE WORLD. THEY LEARN THAT LESSON EARLY.WHITE K ID S , IT  D O ESN 'T MATTER THAT MUCH, A WHITE K ID  CAN GO TO SCHOOL WHERE THE RELATIONS ARE VERY BAD AND IN  A SENSE IT  IS  NOT TERRIBLY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE IT  I S  UNLIKELY IT  I S  EVER GOING TO WALK INTO A BANK AND BORROW MONEY AND FIND A BANK PRESIDENT THAT IS  W HITE. I F  WHITES HAVE MOST THE RESOURCES AND ARE THE LARGEST PART OF THE POPULATION YOU CAN SORT OF L IV E  WITH B LA CK S. WELL, YOU CA N 'T  REALLY L IV E  COMFORTABLY WITH THE QUALITY OF RACE RELATIONS WE HAVE IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE PEOPLE L IV E  IN TERROR, CRIME RATES AND ALL THE REST OF THAT. BUT K ID S DON'T THINK OF THAT SO MUCH. IT  IS  NOT SO MUCH THE WHITE K ID S THAT ARE AFFECTED . THE



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BLACK K ID S ARE VERY S E N S IT IV E  TO THE R ACIAL COMPOSITION OF THE SCHOOL,  AND ACHIEVEMENT W ILL SHOW I T .SO BY EXTEN SIO N , SEGREGATED BLACK SCH O OLS, WHITE TEACHERS WHO B A SIC A LLY  ARE UNFAM ILIAR WITH BLACK K ID S AND LOW EXPECTATIONS FOR THEM W ILL BE ADVERSE CLIM A TE.YOU ALSO SEE BLACK TEACHERS WHO ARE NOT REALLY GOOD MODELS FOR THEIR K ID S . IN INTERVIEW ING BLACKS IN SEGREGATED SCHOOLS TEACHERS, ADMINISTRATORS IN RICHMOND AS WELL AS OTHER P L A C E S, I  AM STRUCK WITH THE NUMBER OF BLACK TEACHERS IN SEGREGATED BACKGROUNDS WHO ARE QUITE T IM ID , WHO ARE CLEARLY VERY WORRIED ABOUT THEIR BLACK CHILDREN EMBARRASSING THEM IN FRONT OF WHITE PEOPLE AND ACTING UNCOUTH OR SOMETHING. THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE TEACHING CONFIDENCE TO K ID S , AND THEY TEACH THEM THEIR OWN T IM ID IT Y . IT  I S  SCA R Y.AND I  HAVE SEEN IT  IN RICHMOND AND OTHER C IT Y  SCHOOL SYSTEM S. T H IS RESEARCH HAS ALWAYS BEEN DONE, NORMAN MILER D ID  A VERY PRETTY P IE C E  OP RESEARCH AT STUDYING DESEGREGATION OF R IV E R S ID E , CA LIFO R N IA  IN WHICH HE CLEARLY SHOWED THAT THE STUDENTS LEARNED L E SS IN A DESEGREGATED SCHOOL IF  THEY HAD PR EJU D ICED  TEACHERS THAN IF  THEY STAYED IN  THE SEGREGATED SCHOOLS. THE ONLY BEN EFIT FROM DESEGREGATION I S  IF  THE TEACHERS WERE U NPREJUD ICED . T H IS I S  MOSTLY WHITE TEACHERS. THESE EFFECTS ARE PRETTY STRONG, A G A IN .Q . I  DON'T WANT TO BELABOR THE P O IN T , BUT ARE YOU SAYINGBLACK TEACHERS ARE BAD TEACHERS?



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A . NO. NOT SAYING BLACK TEACHERS ARE BAD TEACHERS. I  AMNOT SAYING BLACKS ARE BAD PEO PLE. I  AM SAYIN G COMING FROM A SEGREGATED SCHOOL IS  A BURDEN WHETHER YOU ARE WHITE OR BLACK. IT  I S  A DIFFERENT KIND OF BURDEN WHETHER YOU ARE WHITE OR BLACK, BUT IT  IS  A BURDEN. ALL OF US HAVE BURDENS. THAT IS  A BURDEN YOU WOULD L IK E  TO NOT HAVE.Q . ALL BLACK COLLEGES ARE BAD COLLEGES?A . WELL, I  WOULDN’ T SEND MY CH ILD  TO ONE, OR YOUR CHILDTO ONE, BUT THEY ARE DOING THE BEST THEY CAN DO. I  WOULDN’ T CLOSE THE BLACK C O LLEG ES. I  THINK THEY DO A PU B LIC S E R V IC E . JU S T  THAT IF  A CH ILD  CAN GO TO A WHITE COLLEG E, I  WOULD CERTAINLY ENCOURAGE HIM TO DO IT  BECAUSE OF THE PROBLEMS OF SEGREGATION KEEP FOLLOWING THEM AROUND. YOU CA N 'T  PUT THEM OFF FOREVER.BLACK COLLEGES ARE DOING I  THINK A VERY GOOD JO B  PLAYING THE ROLE THEY HAVE TO P LA Y , WHICH I S  ESSEN TIALLY PUTTING BAD NAMES ON ALL THE PROBLEMS CAUSED BY SEGREGATED ELEMENTARY SCH O OLS, AND BLACK K ID S AND PREPARING A LOT OF THEM, MANY BECOME VERY SUCCESSFUL PR O FE SSIO N A LS. S O , THEY ARE DOING A GOOD JO B . BUT, IF  SOMEONE, IF  A BLACK CH ILD  ASKED ME SHOULD GO TO A BLACK SCHOOL, I  WOULD TELL HIM NO.Q . ARE THERE SOME EDUCATIONAL HARMS THAT ARE V E S T IG E S ?A . I  DON'T UNDERSTAND THE Q U ESTIO N .Q . YOU HAVE ID E N T IF IE D  A NUMBER OF V E ST IG E S FROM PASTD ISC R IM IN A T IO N . ARE THERE SOME V E ST IG E S WHICH PERTAIN SOLELY



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TO WHAT E X IS T S  IN A CLASSROOM THAT ARE JU S T  EDUCATIONAL IN NATURE?A . W ELL, I  THINK THAT IS  R IG H T . BECAUSE I  THINK I F  YOULOOK AT THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCH O OLS, IT  I S  IM PO SSIBLE LOOKING AT THESE SCHOOLS NOT TO KNOW THESE SCHOOLS WERE ONCE SEGREGATED. I  DECIDED THAT AFTER THE LAST TIME I  TALKED TO A P R IN CIP A L HERE THERE IS  PROBABLY NOT A SIN G L E  TEACHER OR P R IN CIP A L IN TH IS ENTIRE SCHOOL WHO DOES NOT KNCW WHETHER THEY WERE IN A SCHOOL THAT WAS WHITE IN '7 0  OR BLACK IN  * 7 0 . EVERYBODY —  IT  IS  A W O  —  THERE WERE BLACK SCHOOLS WHICH WERE BLACK IN *70 AND BLACK SCHOOLS THAT WERE WHITE IN  * 7 0 , AND THOSE WERE THE GOOD O NES. IT  IS  A ST O N ISH IN G . THE FACT THAT A SCHOOL WAS A WHITE SCHOOL 15 YEARS AGO MAKES IT  A GOOD SCHOOL NCXJ.SEGREGATION BY RACES —  WHEN YOU HAVE SEGREGATED SCHOOLS, THAT I S  SAYING WITH A B IG  SIG N  SEGREGATION IS  A GOOD TH IN G . SEGREGATION BY RACE, SEGREGATION BY C L A S S ,SEGREGATION BY A B IL IT Y , IT  IM P L IE S ALL SORTS OF SEGREGATION MAKES SE N SE . I F  ANY ONE KIND OF SEGREGATION MAKES SE N SE , OTHER KINDS DO. IT  SEEMS TO ME A SOUTHERN SEGREGATED SCHOOL SYSTEM I S  JU S T  ID EALO GICALLY L IK E  AN ENGLISH SCHOOL SYSTEM WHERE WE SORT K ID S INTO THOSE THAT DESERVE TO GO ON AND THOSE WHO D O N 'T .I  THINK THE SCHOOL STUDENT EXPECTS THAT ANY SCHOOL SYSTEM W ILL CARRY THAT FULL CURE WITH IT  UNTIL IT  STAMPS IT



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OUT, EVEN AFTER DESEGREGATION.A NATIONAL IN ST IN CT  TO DETRACT, TO DECIDE WHICH ARE THE MIDDLE CLASS SCHOOLS AND WHICH ARE THE WORKING CLASS SCHOOLS, IT  IS  IDEOLOGY THAT YOU HAVE TO STAMP OUT. AND IT  TAKES A LONG TIME TO DO I T .IN  A D D IT IO N , THE RICHMOND SCHOOLS ARE SADDLED WITH THE FACT THAT EVERYBODY B E LIE V E S THEY ARE NO GOOD. IT  DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE TEST SC O R E S, OR DOESN 'T MATTER IN MANY WAYS. YOU JU S T  KEEP HAMMERING OVER AND OVER AGAIN TO TEACH PEOPLE THESE SCHOOLS ARE ACCEPTABLE SCH O OLS, BUT YOU HAVE TO OVERCOME TH IS B IG  OBSTACLE OF EVERYBODY ASSUMING THEY ARE NO GOOD. YOU HAVE TO KEEP TRYING TO DISPROVE I T ,  AND DISPROVE IT  AND DISPROVE IT  AND DISPROVE I T .  LA TE DAH.Q . DOES THAT AFFECT COMMUNITY SUPPORT OF THE SCHOOLS?A . SU RE. SO DON'T SUPPORT THEM, SO THEY WON'T SUPPORTTHEM. THE COURT: T H IS MAY BE A GOOD T IK E  TO TAKE A BREAK.Q . ONLY THREE MORE Q U E ST IO N S.THE COURT: F IN E .BY MR. W ILLIA M S:Q . DOCTOR, HAVE YOU HAD A CHANCE, YOU HAVE T E S T IF IE D  THATYOU HAVE V IS IT E D  THE SCHOOL SYSTEM A NUMBER OF TIM E S?A . ABOUT THREE.Q . HAVE YOU INTERVIEWED PERSONNEL THERE?A . Y E S .



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Q . AND YOU HAVE REVIEWED SOME OF THE E X H IB IT S  BY THERICHMOND SCHOOL BOARD AND THE DEFENDANTS PERTAINING TO CH A R A CT ER IST ICS OF THE SCHOOL SYSTEM?A . Y E S .Q . NOW, DOCTOR, GIVEN ALL OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HAVESA ID  CONCERNING THE PAST EFFECTS OF SEGREGATION CONCERNING THE PRESENT DAY EFFECTS FROM PAST E F F E C T S , ARE YOU SAYING THAT THESE EFFECTS W ILL LAST FOREVER?A . NO. I  AM AN O PTIM IST D ESPIT E  MY VERY MORBID TESTIMONYFOR THE LAST HOUR.I  THINK MY CHILDREN W ILL L IV E  TO SEE A GOOD SCHOOL SYSTEM IN  RICHMOND, ONE THAT WORKS WELL. I  DON'T THINK THERE I S  ANY REASON TO THINK THAT THESE HARMS HAVE TO LINGER FOREVER. IT  IS  GOING TO TAKE A LOT OF WORK, BUT I  THINK IT  I S  CUREABLE.Q . HOW MUCH OF —  HOW WOULD YOU DECIDE WHEN IT  IS  ALLOVER WHEN THESE EFFECTS W ILL CEASE TO E X IS T ?A . I  THINK —  I  DON'T THINK THAT ONE SHOULD SAY I  WON'TBE S A T IS F IE D  UNTIL BLACK ACHIEVEMENT TEST SCORES ARE ID EN T ICA L TO WHITE ACHIEVEMENT TEST SCORES OR HIGHER.AFTER A L L , WE DON'T REALLY CARE WHETHER THE TEST SCORES ARE HIGHER THAN IT A LIA N  TEST SCORES OR LOWER. I  THINK WE WANT THESE D IFFE R E N C E S, THE DROP OUT RATE IN RICHMOND WHEN WE COMPARE IT  TO HENRICO OR THE SUBURBAN CO U N T IE S, WHEN WE LOOK AT CHESTERFIELD IN  TERMS OF DROP OUT IN TERMS OF



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ADOLESCENT PREGNANCY, IN TERMS OF DELINQUENCY, IN TERMS OF COLLEGE ATTENDANCE R A T E S, THESE THINGS WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, I  THINK WE SHOULD BE S A T IS F IE D  WHEN WE CAN LOOK AT THOSE FIGURES AND NOT IMMEDIATELY THINK THERE IS  SOMETHING PATHOLOGICALLY WRONG HERE WHEN THE DIFFERENCES ARE NO LONGER SO B IG  THAT YOU JU S T  HAVE TO THINK THEY ARE PATHOLOGICAL.AND I  ALSO THINK THAT WHEN THAT HAPPENS WE W ILL SEE MORE AND MORE WHITES SAYING TO THEIR —  SENDING THEIR CHILDREN TO PU B LIC SCHOOLS IN RICHMOND. AND MORE AND MORE BLACKS RELOCATING INTO THE SUBURBS. SO THAT WE W ILL S A Y , S E E , SOHEKIND OF VOLUNTARY DESEGREGATION OF THE SCHOOLS IS  BEGINNING TO TAKE OFF HERE. WHEN THESE THINGS HAPPEN YOU WOULD HAVE TO SAY WE DID I T .  FIN ALLY GOT TO THE POINT THAT WE HAVE ELIMINATED THE LIN GERIN G EFFECTS OF SEGREGATION.Q . NO FURTHER Q U E ST IO N S.THE COURT: HELP THE W ITNESS DOWN. WE W ILL TAKE AR E C E S S . (A r e c e s s  was t a k e n . ) .THE COURT: DO I  UNDERSTAND THAT IF  WE, LIK E  MURPHEY'S LAW IF  IT  I S  NOT BROKEN, DON'T F IX  I T ?  I F  WE LEAVE EVERYTHING ALONE W ILL EVERYTHING BE ALL RIGHT WITH THE RICHMOND SCHOOL SYSTEM?CONSIDERING WHAT THEY ARE DOING NOW.A . EVENTUALLY, I  SU PPO SE . IF  YOU WAITED LONG ENOUGH.I  DON'T KNOW. THAT I S  A EXTRA Q U ESTIO N .



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THERE I S  A P O S S IB IL IT Y  THAT —  WELL, PUT IT  TH IS WAY.IF  YOU GO INTO AN AMERICAN C IT Y  AND LOOK AT THE POVERTY AND THE CRIME RATE AND SAY I F  WE LEAVE TH IS ALONE W ILL EVERYTHING BE OKAY? MY GOD, HOW COULD I  P O S S IB L Y ? I  COULDN'T L IV E  IN  —  I  COULDN'T LEAVE DETROIT ALONE AND LET K ID S WALK AROUND WITH MACHINE GU N S. SO IN THAT SENSE WHAT WE HAVE IS  TOO AWFUL.ON THE OTHER HAND, I  SUPPOSE IT  IS  GETTING BETTER SO IN THAT SENSE YOU COULD WAIT IF  YOU WERE PA TIEN T.THE COURTS W ELL, WHAT I  THOUGHT OF WAS YOUR LAST STATEMENT, THE EFFECTS WON'T LAST FOREVER.LET ME BE A L IT T L E  B IT  MORE S P E C I F I C . HOW ABOUT THE CHILDREN THAT ARE IN  SCHOOL RIGHT NCW? WHAT I S  THE FUTURE FOR THEM I F  WE LEAVE EVERYTHING ALONE IN THE RICHMOND SCHOOLS?A . I  WOULD SAY BLEAK.THE COURT: BOTH BLACK AND WHITE?A . W ELL, THERE A R E, I  TH IN K , SOME GOOD THINGS FOR WHITEK ID S BY ATTENDING PREDOMINANTLY BLACK SCH O OLS, AND GIVEN A CHOICE BETWEEN IF  I  HAD A KID  AND I  WERE L IV IN G  IN RICHMOND AND I  THOUGHT MY CH ILD  WOULD BE WORKING IN DOWNTOWN RICHMOND AND I  HAD A CHOICE BETWEEN SENDING HIM TO THE SUBURBAN SCHOOL SYSTEM AND OR THE RICHMOND C IT Y  SCHOOL SYSTEM , I  THINK I  WOULD RATHER SEND HIM TO THE RICHMOND C IT Y  SCHOOL SYSTEM BECAUSE HE IS  GOING TO HAVE TO LEARN TO L IV E  IN RICHMOND AND HE BETTER HAVE EXPERIENCES DEALING WITH BLACKS TO DO I T .



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BU T, I  DON’ T WANT HIM TO HAVE TO L IV E  IN RICHMOND KNOWING THE WAY RICHMOND I S  THE WAY IT  W ILL BE OVER THE NEXT 25 Y E A R S. TOO MUCH CRIME RATE, TOO MANY POOR PEO PLE, TOO MANY AWFUL T H IN G S.THE COURT: DO YOU ATTRIBUTE THAT TO THE SCHOOLS?A . SU R E . I  DON’ T MEAN SU R E. I  KEEP SOUNDING L IK E  THEONLY THING THAT EVER HAPPENED IN  THE ENTIRE SOUTH WAS THE SEGREGATION OF SCH O OLS. OR SOMETHING L IK E  THAT.I  DON'T MEAN THAT, O B V IO U SLY.THE COURT: HOW MUCH ARE YOU PUTTING ON THE SCHOOLS? A . YOU KNOW, I  READ THE DETROIT D E C ISIO N  ABOUT M IL L IK INTWO D E C IS IO N . AND WHEN I  READ I T ,  I  THOUGHT T H IS IS  A R IP  O F F . ALL THEY ARE DOING, IT  I S  A COLLUSION BETWEEN THE SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENT AND THE JUDGE TO R IP  OFF THE ST A TE.THE COURT: NO, NO. W AIT. I  GUESS THAT WAS YOUR IN IT IA L  IM PR E SSIO N .A . I  THEN CAME INTO T H IS  C A SE .THE COURT: GIVEN WITHOUT MUCH STUDY.A . NO DOUBT, NO DOUBT. AND WITHOUT —  W ELL, OF COURSE,NOW THE LAW DEGREE I  HAVE.THE COURT; WELL, YOU ARE NOT REALLY SUGGESTING M IL L IK IN  TOO WAS THE CONSEQUENCE OF A COLLUSION BETWEEN A UNITED STATES D IS T R IC T  JUDGE AND THE SUPERINTENDENT OF SCHOOLS.A . NO. NO, I  AM NOT SER IO U SLY SUGGESTING THAT IN THE



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LEGAL SENSE THAT I  WOULD L IK E  TO SEE BOTH OF THOSE PEOPLE GO TO J A I L .  I  DON’ T THINK ANYTHING ILLEGAL WAS DONE. I  D ID N ’ T MEAN TO IMPLY THAT.BUT I  DID THINK THAT THE —  THAT THERE WASN'T AS MUCH LO GIC THERE WAS AS I  WOULD L IK E , AND I  CAME IN TH IS CASE WHEN THE N . A . A . C .  P . CALLED AND ASKED WOULD I  T E S T IF Y , AND ASKED ME WHAT THE LINGERING EFFECTS WOULD BE 15 YEARS LATER. AND THEY S A ID  WOULD THE LIN GERIN G EFFECTS 15 YEARS LATER JU S T IF Y  SOME DOLLAR S IG N  WITH SEVEN ZEROS BEHIND I T ?  AND I  F IR S T  THOUGHT THAT IS  S I L L Y . BUT THEN WHEN I  STARTED DEVELOPING TH IS ARGUMENT, READING EVERYTHING AND W RITING ALL T H IS STUFF U P, I  THINK I  MUST HAVE FOUND 20 DIFFERENT WAYS IN WHICH THE ACHIEVEMENT OF BLACK STUDENTS IN RICHMOND I S  HURT BY WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE 1 9 7 1 . 20 DIFFERENT MECHANISMS ITHINK I  HAVE LA ID  OUT IN T H IS TESTIMONY PROBABLY.THE COURT: DID YOU ALSO COME TO THE CONCLUSION AS TO THE REMEDY, I F  AN Y, B E SID E S TIM E?A . WELL, I  THINK I  DID GET FO CU S. I  AM SORRY, I  W ILL TRYTO USE BETTER GRAMMAR. I  DID FOCUS MY ATTENTION ON PARTICULAR KINDS OF HARMS. FOR EXAMPLE, I  THINK WE SHOULD PAY SP E C IA L  ATTENTION TO PARENT-TEACHER R ELA T IO N S, BECAUSE I  THINK THAT I S  AN AREA WHERE THERE IS  GOING —  THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE D IF F IC U L T Y  AS A RESULT OF SEGREGATION, PARENTS' D ISTR U ST OF TEACHERS. OR PARENTS —  NOT D ISTR U STIN G PARENTS AND NOT DELIBERATING TOGETHER, AND THAT I S  IMPORTANT IN



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EDUCATION. I  THINK YOU OUGHT TO FOCUS ON PRE-SCHOOL BECAUSE PRE-SCHOOL IS  WHERE THE K ID S ARE GOING TO BE SUFFERING THE HARMS OF THEIR PARENTS' SEGREGATION. OUGHT TO FOCUS ON SUMMER. THAT I S  AN AREA WHERE THE HARM THAT PARENTS RECEIVED I S  GOING TO BE A MEMBER. OUGHT TO FOCUS ON IN SE R V ICE  TRAINING AND ORGANIZING THE SCHOOLS TO GET R ID  OF THE OLD SEGREGATION STYLE AND GET R ID  OF —  AND TO HELP TEACHERS LEARN HOW TO DEAL WITH DESEGREGATION AND WITH K ID S OF THE OPPOSITE RACE.THE COURTi YOU DON'T THINK THAT HAS BEEN DONE SIN CE  THE DECREE OF '7 1  OR ' 7 2 ,  WHENEVER IT  CAME DOWN?A . I  AM NOT AN EXPERT ON THAT. YOU WOULD HAVE TO ASKB IL L  PAULEY TO TALK ABOUT WHAT IS  GOING ON HERE. I  DON'T CLAIM TO KNOW ABOUT THAT.I  THINK THOSE ARE THE THINGS I  WOULD FOCUS ON, AND THEN FOCUS ALSO ON THE COUNSELING, BECAUSE IF  THESE K ID S HAVE ALL TH IS TROUBLE DEALING WITH WHITES BECAUSE OF NO EXPERIENCE WITH THEM, AND I F  THE WHITES GROWING UP IN  THE SUBURBAN COUNTIES HAVE NO EXPERIENCE DEALING WITH B LA CK S, A LOT OF THEM —  BECAUSE BLACKS DON'T L IV E  IN THE COUNTIES AS MUCH, THEN THERE IS  GOING TO DE EMPLOYMENT PROBLEMS IN THE FUTURE AND A COLLEGE PROBLEM IN  THE FUTURE. SO YOU HAVE TO FOCUS ON COUNSELING SORTS OF THINGS TO HELP MAKE THAT. YOU HAVE TO COMPENSATE JU S T  L IK E  YOU DO COMPENSATORY EDUCATION TOCOMPENSATE FOR THE PARENTS' FAMILY BACKGROUND. YOU HAVE TO



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DO COMPENSATORY EDUCATION TO COMPENSATE T1IE K ID S FOR THE FACTS THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH WHITE EMPLOYERS WHO WENT TO SEGREGATED SCH O OLS. BECAUSE IT  IS  THE SC H O O L'S FAULT THAT THOSE EMPLOYERS ARE THE WAY THEY ARE GOING TO B E . SO I  THINK THESE THINGS DO MAKE ME FOCUS ON CERTAIN KINDS OF T H IN G S. THE COURT: WERE YOU PR IV Y TO THE PLAN THAT HAS BEEN SUGGESTED BY THE SCHOOL BOARD?A . Y E S , I  HAVE SEEN I T .THE COURT: DO YOU AGREE IN TOTO?A . NOT REALLY AN EXPERT. I  AM HOT COMFORTABLE ON THAT.I  DON'T TEACH EDUCATIONAL AD M IN ISTRATIO N , I AM REALLY JU S T  A S O C IO L O G IS T . I  DON'T KNOW EXACTLY. FROM WHAT I  KNCW, I  L IK E  A LOT OF THE STUFF I  RECOGNIZE THERE. I  L IK E  THE COOPERATIVE LEARNING FO CU S, I  L IK E  THE SUMMER SCHOOL FO CU S, THE PRE-SCHOOL FO CU S, A LOT OF THE OTHER T H IN G S. I  DON'T WANT TO SAY — THE COURT: HOW ABOUT THE MATTERS THAT YOU SAY THAT YOU JU S T  T E S T IF IE D  TO THAT YOU THINK R EQ U IR E, THAT WE OUGHT TO FOCUS ON? ARE THEY WITHIN YOUR FIE LD  OF E X P E R T ISE ?A . WELL, I  THINK I  CAN SAY IT  IS  WITHIN MY F IE L D  OFEXPERT ISE TO SAY TH IS IS  THE PRC®LEM, THE PROBLEM AREA. I  DON'T THINK I  AM BEGINNING TO SAY I  AM AN EXPERT ON WHAT IS  THE RIGHT SO LU TIO N . FOR EXAMPLE, I  WANT TO SAY THE SUMMER PERIOD I S  A PROBLEM PERIOD BECAUSE THE CHILDREN ARE GOING



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HOME TO PARENTS WHO HAVE BEEN BURDENED. BUT THAT DOESN’ T MEAN I  KNOW WHICH KIND OF SUMMER SCHOOL IS  THE RIGHT KIND OR WHICH KIND OF PRE-SCHOOL PROGRAM.THE COURT* YOU KNOW IT  NEEDS F IX IN G ?A . I  KNOW IT  NEEDS F IX IN G , BUT I  DON'T KNOW HOW TO F IXI T . THE COURT: ALL R IG H T .A . DOES THAT HAKE SEN SE?THE COURT: Y E S , SU RE.THAT IS  A L L . I  DON'T WANT TO GET INTO A F IE LD  THAT I S  NOT YOURS. CROSS-EXAM INATIONBY MR. MINCBERG:-Q . DR. C R A IN , THE F IR S T  QUESTION I  HAVE [1AY ALSO GET INTOTHAT F IE L D . IF  IT  D O ES, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. YOU DID T E S T IF Y  ON DIRECT EXAMINATION THAT YOU THOUGHT THAT ELIM INATING THE V E ST IG E S OF SEGREGATION I  THINK YOU SA ID  WOULD TAKE A LOT OF EFFORT. DO YOU RECALL THAT?A . Y E S .Q . DO YOU ALSO THINK IT  W ILL TAKE A LOT IN THE WAY OFRESOURCES?A . AS FAR AS I  CAN T E L L , Y E S . IF  THE ONLY THING YOU HAVETO HOVE THE SCHOOL WITH I S  MONEY, R EALLY. I  MEAN YOU CA N 'T  MOVE THE SCHOOL SYSTEM WITH GOOD IN T E N T IO N S.THE COURT* HOW ABOUT DEDICATED TEACHERS?



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THE COURT: C A N 'T  MAKE THEM MORE DEDICATED THAN THEY ALREADY AR E.THE COURT: DEDICATED PARENTS?THE COURT: YOU CA N 'T  CHANGE THOSE T H IN G S. THE PARENTS ARE PRETTY DEDICATED NOW, AND SOME HAVE PROBLEMS.THE TEACHERS ARE DEDICATED NCH*/, BUT YOU C A N 'T  F IX  THAT.THERE IS  NOTHING YOU AND I  CAN DO THAT ABOUT I T .THE COURT: I  WAS, I  WAS CHALLENGING YOUR STATEMENT THAT YOU C A N 'T  DO ANYTHING EXCEPT WITH MONEY.A . WELL, IF  I  KNEW HOW —  WELL SE R IO U S L Y , I F  I  KNEW HOWTO GO THROUGH WITH A HYPODERMIC NEEDLE AND IN JE C T  ALL OF THE TEACHERS WITH SOMETHING TO MAKE THEM HUSTLE A L IT T L E  MORE, OR IN JE C T  ALL OF THE K ID S WITH SOMETHING I  WOULD DO I T .THE COURT: HOW ABOUT CHANGING THE TEACHERS?A . HIRIN G KNEW TEACHERS?THE COURT: SU R E . I  MEAN I F  THESE TEACHERS AR EN 'T DOING THE JO B , WHY SHOULDN'T NEW TEACHERS BE H IRED?A . SU R E. AND THAT IS  AN AREA THAT IN FACT ONE OUGHT TOFOCUS ATTENTION ON, BECAUSE ONE OF THE B IG  PRC®LEMS I  SUSPECT I S  TH IS SCHOOL SYSTEM SHOULD LO GICALLY HAVE A LOT OF TROUBLE RECRUITING TEACHERS.THE COURT: I  AM NOT SUGGESTING THEY ARE NOT GOOD. I  DON'T KNOW. BUT ASSUMING —A . THEORETICALLY YOU WOULD HAVE TROUBLE RECRUITING GOODTEACHERS AND H IRIN G P R IN C IP A L S . I  HEARD A P R IN CIP A L SAY THE



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OTHER DAY HE FELT L IK E  THERE WAS A TRAINING GROUND FOR THE SUBURBS. WE WOULD H IRE THEM AND THEN THEY WOULD TAKE OFF FOR THE SUBURBS. I  AM SURE THERE HAS TO BE A MEMBER BECAUSE TEACHING IN  RICHMOND I S  HARDER WORK THAN TEACHING IN THE SUBURBS. FOR MOST OF THEM IT  IS  A LONGER COMMUTE TO WORK. BLACK AND WHITE TEACHERS W ILL TRY TO L IV E  IN THE SUBURBS OFTEN, SO THAT IS  AN AREA FOCUSING ON HOW TO RECRUIT MORE TEACHERS HAS GOT TO BE A GOOD T H IN G . WHETHER YOU CAN DO THAT IN  SOME CHEAPER WAY THAN JU S T  R A ISIN G  THE S A L A R IE S , I  DON'T KNOW. YOU MIGHT JU S T  HAVE TO JA C K  SA LA R IE S U P.THERE I S  A GREAT —THE COURT: I  DON’ T KNOW —A . THERE I S  A CONTROVERSY WHETHER YOU CAN IMPROVE TEACHERSELECTIO N  OR NOT, AND THAT IS  JU S T  A ZOO AS FAR AS I  CAN T E L L . I  READ THAT, AND I  DON'T KNOW WHAT TO THINK ABOUT THAT. PEOPLE ARGUE WHETHER THEY SHOULD BE TESTED OR NOT. LOOKS L IK E  A MESS TO ME.THE COURT: I  WOULD THINK TEACHERS ARE TEACHERS, AND IF  THEY ARE GOOD TEACHERS, THE SALARY I S N ’ T GOING TO KEEP THEM FROM BEING DEDICATED. BUT L E T ’ S NOT —A . I  FEEL THAT WAY M YSELF, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND I  MAKEAN AWFUL LOT OF MONEY.THE COURT: I  WANT TO GET YOU ST R A IG H T, NOT GET YOU ST RA IGH T, BUT I  WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT, AND I  THINK YOU WILL AGREE YOU C A N 'T  GENERALIZE ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF AN ALL BLACK



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SCHOOL SYSTEM AND ALL BLACK CO LLEG E, CAN YOU?A . YOU REMIND ME OF BEING TOLD REPEATEDLY WHEN I  WAS INGRADUATE SCHOOL ABOUT THE PROFESSOR WHO DROWNED IN  A R IVER THAT AVERAGED THREE FEET D EEP.THE COURT: I  HAD PROFESSORS L IK E  THAT, THAT I  SUSPECTED MIGHT I F  THEY GOT INTO I T .A . OF COURSE YOU CAN’ T G E N E R A LIZ E . WHAT I  DO FOR AL IV IN G  IS  MAKE GENERALIZATIONS OF THAT KIND OF NATURE, AND I  HAVE TO SAY EVER S IN C E , BUT OF COURSE I  DON'T MEAN —THE COURT: ONLY RECENTLY WE HAD THAT SHOWN TO US RIGHT HERE AS OF YESTERDAY. THE MAN THAT WENT TO A SEGREGATED SCHOOL, AND A BLACK CO LLEG E, AND BLACK LAW SCHOOL, AND HE I S  LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR OF V IR G IN I A , WHICH IS  NOT A BAD JO B .A . NO, I  THINK THAT IS  NOT BENEATH THE FELLOW 'S D IG N IT Y .THE COURT: THE PAY IS  NOT THAT GOOD, BUT IT  IS  HOT A BAD JO B . IT  I S  SOMETHING TO BE PROUD O F .A . OF COU RSE, OF COURSE.THE COURT: ALL R IG H T . GO AHEAD.BY MR. M INCBERG:Q . LET ME FOLLOW UP ON TWO POINTS THAT JU D GE MERHIGE JU S TASKED ABOUT. DOES THE FACT THAT SOME IN D IV ID U A LS WHO ARE EDUCATED IN  SEGREGATED IN ST IT U T IO N S GO ON TO GREAT ACHIEVEMENT, I S  THAT IN ANYWAY CONSISTENT WITH YOUR VIEW WITHANY OF THE CONCLUSIONS THAT YOU HAVE DRAWN?



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A . NO, OF COURSE NOT. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AVERAGES.AND THERE I S  EXCEPTIONS TO THE AVERAGE —Q . WITH RESPECT TO TEACHERS, —A . —  AS MATTER OF FACT.Q . GO AHEAD.A . IT  MUST BE TRUE THAT THERE ARE SOME BEN EFITS TO GOINGTO SEGREGATED SCHOOLS. L IK E  IT  IS  HARD TO THINK WHAT THEY A R E, BUT L O G IC A L L Y , PIIILO SO PH YICALLY HAS TO BE BEN EFITS TO GOING TO SEGREGATED SCH O OLS. JU S T  AS A LO GICAL PH ILOSOPHICAL FA C T , I  AM SURE THAT IS  TRUE.Q . IF  YOU HAD TO COMPARE THE BEN EFITS WITH THE BURDENS,HOW WOULD YOU WEIGH THEM?A . I  CAN’ T EVEN THINK OF WHAT THE BEN EFITS AR E, SO THEYARE OBVIOUSLY PRETTY SM ALL.Q . COMPARED TO?A . COMPARED TO THE BURDENS, WHICH ARE VERY LARGE.Q . WITH RESPECT TO TEACHERS, DR. C R A IN , I S  IT  P O SSIB L E  TOTRY TO TRAIN TEACHERS, EITHER THOSE WHO MAY HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO D ISCR IM IN A T IO N  OR SEGREGATION TO TRY TO MAKE THEM BETTER TEACHERS IN OVERCOMING PROBLEMS THAT YOU HAVE REFERRED TO?A . OF COURSE, OF COURSE.Q . AND WOULD THAT TAKE RESOURCES, MONEY, TO TRAIN THEM?A . Y E S , THAT IS  R IG H T . THAT IS  AN AREA IN WHICH SCHOOLD IS T R IC T S  —  I  AM CONVINCED SCHOOL D IS T R IC T S  DON’ T SPEND



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ENOUGH MONEY GENERALLY, NATIONALLY.Q . I  WANT TO CLA R IFY  A COUPLE POINTS THAT YOU T E S T IF IE DTO ON YOUR D IR E C T . YOU F IR S T  TALKED, I  WAS INTERESTED IN T H IS ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU FOUND THAT DESEGREGATION HAS IMPROVED, BOTH I .  Q . AND ACHIEVEMENT SC O R E S. NOW, BY I .  Q .WE ARE TALKING TO GENERALIZED SO -CALLED  A B IL IT Y  T E S T S , THAT I S  RIGH T?A . THAT IS  R IG H T .Q . SO THAT I  TAKE IT  WHAT YOU ARE SAYING THEN IS  A S O -CALLED A B IL IT Y  TEST AT LEAST IN PART REALLY I S  MEASURING ACHIEVEMENT?A . THAT IS  R IG H T .Q . SO THAT THE FACT THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, HYPOTHETICALLY I FTHE RICHMOND P U B LIC SCHOOLS ACHIEVEMENT SCORES WERE NOT TOO D IS S IM IL A R  FROM THEIR A B IL IT Y  SC O R E S, BOTH L E T ’ S ASSUME WERE LOWER THAN THE STATE AVERAGE, WOULD THAT TELL YOU ANYTHING ABOUT WHETHER THERE WERE V E ST IG E S OF SEGREGATION?MR. LUCYK: O B JE C T IO N . WE ARE GETTING INTO A L IT T L E  DEEPER SPECULATION THAN ANYTHING WE HAVE HAD YET T H IS AFTERNOON.THE COURT: W ELL, NO. IT  I S  BASED , THE ANSWER W ILL BE BASED ON H IS  E X P E R T ISE , I F  THAT IS  WITHIN H IS  F IE L D .MR. LUCYK: I F  IT  I S  WITHIN H IS F IE L D . I  DON'T KNOW THAT I  HAVE HEARD THAT.THE COURT: I  W ILL LET THE DOCTOR TELL US IF  IT  IS  IN



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H IS F IE L D . I F  IT  I S ,  HE MY ANSWER THE Q U ESTIO N . I F  YOU CAN REMEMBER THE Q UESTION .Q . LET ME TRY A G A IN . THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF D ISC U SS IO N  —A . I  REMEMBER.Q . GO AHEAD.A . I  WOULD EXPECT ACHIEVEMENT TEST SCORES AND A B IL IT YSCORES TO BE ROUGHLY CONSISTENT WITH EACH OTHER. AND I  DON'T THINK LOW A B IL IT Y  SCORES ARE IN F L E X IB L E  OR UNCHANGABLE. I  DON'T THINK I  COULD USE LOW A B IL IT Y  SCORES TO IN  ANY SENSE JU S T IF Y  OR ARGUE THAT YOU COULDN'T CHANGE ACHIEVEMENT SC O R E S.I  DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD —  I  DON'T TUINK THAT YOU CAN INTERPRET THEM THAT WAY.Q . JUDGE MERHIGE ASKED YOU A QUESTION EARLIER ABOUT WHATYOU MEANT BY E FFECT IVE  DESEGREGATION. I  WAS ALSO INTERESTED IN  THAT. WHEN YOU REFERRED TO THE P O S IT IV E  EFFECTS OF E FFECTIVE DESEGREGATION, BY E FFECT IVE  DESEGREGATION DO YOU MEAN ORDERING A PLAN THAT T R IE S  TO ACHIEVE DESEGREGATION, OR DO YOU MEAN ACTUALLY ACH IEVIN G DESEGREGATION IN SCHOOLS?A . NO, I  MEAN A C H IE V IN G . I  MEAN PRODUCING SCHOOLS WHICHHAVE WHITE AND BLACK K ID S BOTH IN THEM IN  REASONABLE NUMBERS, AMD WHICH ARE GOOD SCHOOLS FOR ALL THOSE K ID S IN  GOOD SCH O OLS, FOR THE K ID S GETTING ALONG WITH EACH OTHER.Q . I F  YOU LOOKED AT THE DATA WITH RESPECT TO THE YOURACIAL COMPOSITION OF THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOLS?A . Y E S .



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Q . WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE FEW MODEL SCHOOLS AND OPENSCHOOLS THAT ARE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF 15 OR 16 PERCENT BLACK WOULD YOU CONSIDER THE RICHMOND SCHOOLS DESEGREGATED?A . THE RICHMOND ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS ARE 13 PERCENT W HITE.I  THINK THAT I S  A BLACK SCHOOL SYSTEM.Q . AND MIDDLE HIGH SCHOOLS?A . ABOUT THE SAME.T H IS IS  I  THINK YOU LAWYERS USE THE TERM, ACTUALLY A GOOD TERM, ID E N T IF IA B L Y  BLACK I  THINK I S  THE PHRASE. I  DON'T QUITE KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN, BUT I  AM SURE EVERY ONE FOR M ILES IN ALL D IR ECTIO N S SAYS RICHMOND HAS A BLACK SCHOOL SYSTEM .Q . NOT, D R. C R A IN , YOU TALKED ABOUT THE EXTENT TO WHICHTHE PREVIOUS STATE IMPOSED SEGREGATION CAUSES THE SEGREGATION WHICH S T IL L  E X IS T S  TODAY, IS  THAT CORRECT?A . Y E S .A . CAUSE SOME LARGE PARTS OF I T .Q . I F  I  UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SA Y IN G , IT  I S  THE STATEIMPOSED SEGREGATION CREATED ATTITUDES AND REINFORCED ATTITUDES AMONG WHITES AND BLACKS WHICH THEN LED TO CONTINUED RACIAL IS O L A T IO N , AM I  CORRECT? IS  THAT YOUR TESTIMONY?A . THAT IS  PART OF I T ,  Y E S .Q . WHAT E LSE ?A . ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED.Q . WOULD YOU ELABORATE ON ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU FOCUSEDON?



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A . WELL, IT  CREATED A HOUSING MARKET, IT  CREATED AP O L IT IC A L  SYSTEM . THE WHOLE SYSTEM WAS B U ILT  CONSISTENT —  I MEAN IT  WAS A C O N SIST E N T . THE OLD SYSTEM WAS CONSISTENTLY D IV ID E D . IT  WAS B U ILT AROUND THE P R IN C IP L E  OF TOTAL SEGREGATION AND IN E Q U A LIT Y . AND EACH L IT T L E  PART F IT  INTO ANY OTHER PART. SO THE SCHOOLS SUPPORTED THE ECONOMY, THE ECONOMY SUPPORTED THE SCH O OLS, BOTH SUPPORTED HOUSING, AND SO FORTH. SO ALL OF THE THINGS FED TOGETHER. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT A PPEA RS, DIANNA PIERCE SHOWS IS  THE EFFECTS OF SCHOOLS ON HOUSING I S  QUITE STRONG. WE KNOW HOUSING AFFECTS SCH O OLS, BUT SCHOOLS AFFECT HOUSING, TOO. SO THEY ARE THE STRUCTURES, THE ATTITUDES OF BLACKS AND W HITES. THE FACT THAT THE WHOLE, THAT ALL THE PEOPLE IN IT  DON'T HAVE THE S K IL L S . EVEN IF  PEOPLE WANTED TO MAKE DESEGREGATION WORK, NOBODY HAD ANY TRAINING ON HOW TO DO I T ,  BECAUSE NOBODY HAD E XPERIEN CE.Q . I  W ILL ASK THE CLERK IN  T H IS CONNECTION TO HAND YOUTHE NOTEBOOK, I  B E LIE V E  NOTEBOOK NUMBER 3 ,  WHICH CONTAINS OUR, R . P . S .  E X H IB IT  1 7 . LOOK AT THAT.THE COURT: MAY I  HAVE THE NUMBER AGAIN?Q . 1 7 , YOUR HONOR, NOTEBOOK 3 . FOR THE RECORD A TABLEBASED UPON CENSUS S T A T IS T IC S  ENTITLED RICHMOND V IR G IN IA  S .M .S .A .  M IGRATION, 1965 TO '7 0  WHICH WOULD BE THE F IV E  YEARS BEFORE THE 1970 CE N SU S, AND '7 5  TO '8 0  BY R A CE. ARE WE ONTHE SAME TABLE?



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A . R . P . S .  E X H IB IT  17 I S  ONLY ONE PAGE.Q . Y E S , I  THINK THAT I S  R IG H T .A . MAY I  HAVE A L IT T L E  TIME WITH T H IS ?THE COURT: WHILE YOU ARE LOOKING AT IT  I  W ILL HEAR ANY O BJECTIO N  YOU HAVE.MR. LUCYK: HE H ASN 'T BEEN OFFERED AS AN EXPERT IN DEMOGRAPHICS OR IN READING CENSUS DATA OF T H IS  NATURE, NOR Q U A LIFIE D  BY THE COURT. I  O BJECT TO ANY EVIDENCE HE MAY HAVE TO OFFER REGARDING USE OF T H IS CENSUS DATA AND DEMOGRAPHIC DATA.A . I  CA N 'T  RULE ON IT  UNTIL I  KNOW WHERE COUNSEL ISG O IN G , AND WHAT THE QUESTION I S .  HE ASKED HIM TO LOOK AT THE E X H IB IT  FOR THE MOMENT.Q . I  W ILL SAY I  PLAN TO ASK THE DOCTOR WHAT TH IS SHOWSABOUT WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT IN WHICH HE WAS RECOGNIZED AS AN EXPERT, AND THAT I S  WHITE F L IG H T , THAT PHENOMENA.THE COURT: GO AHEAD. ASK THE Q U ESTIO N .Q . THANK YOU.D R. C R A IN , I  WANT TO FOCUS YOUR ATTENTION IN PARTICULAR ON THE BOTTOM PART OF T H IS CHART. THE FIGURES THAT SHOW THE PERCENT LOST TO THE C IT Y  IN THE '6 5 - '7 0  TIME FRAME ON THE ONE HAND AND '7 5  80 TIME FRAME ON THE OTHER. DO YOU SEE THAT?A . Y E S .I  DO



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Q . THE S T A T IS T IC S  INDICATE THAT WITH RESPECT TO NONBLACKS WHILE THE PERCENT LOSS TO THE C IT Y  IN  1965 70 TIME FRAME PRIOR TO THE ORDERING OF THE DESEGREGATION PLAN WAS 5 POINT 7 PERCENT IN THE F IV E  YEARS PRIOR TO 1980 THAT PERCENTAGE WAS 27 POINT 1 ,  DO YOU SEE THAT?A . Y E S .Q . IN  YOUR VIEli? DOES THAT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THEPROBLEMS OF WHITE FLIG H T DUE TO SEGREGATION TO WHICH YOU REFER? MR. LU CYKi I  O B JE C T .THE COURT: O BJECTIO N  IS  SU STA IN E D . I  AM NOT SURE THAT THAT IS  WITHIN THE D OCTOR'S E X P E R T ISE . YOU HAVEN'T ESTABLISHED THE BACKGROUND AS TO HOW HE CAN PO SSIB LY  SAY THAT.Q . ALL R IG H T . WELL, L E T 'S  DO THAT A L IT T L E  B I T .THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.THE COURT: I  MEAN, I  HAPPEN TO KNCW, I  PREDICTED I T .  Q . THAT I S  R IG H T . WE CANNOT CALL YOU AS A W ITN ESS.THE COURT: THAT I S  R IG H T .Q . WE ARE TRYING TO DO WHAT PERHAPS I S  THE NEXT BESTTHING AND ASK THAT QUESTION OF W ITNESSES THAT HAVE BEEN Q U A L IF IE D . LET ME ASK YOU. HAVE YOU IN  THE COURSE OF YOUR STUD IES STUDIED THE PHENOMENON OF CHANGES IN DEMOGRAPHICS IN VARIOUS METROPOLITAN AREAS RELATING TO SEGREGATION ANDDESEGREGATION?



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A . Y E S . AND IT  IS  A ROUTINE FOR ANY SO C IO L O G IST  TO BETRAINED IN  HOW TO WORK WITH SUCH A STATEMENT.Q . THAT WAS MY NEXT Q U ESTIO N . ARE YOU EXPERIENCED ATREADING AND INTERPRETING CENSUS DATA?A . SU R E.Q . DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF AN EXPERT IN  THOSE AREAS?A . I  WOULDN'T TEACH A COURSE ON THE POPULATION OF IN D IA ,BUT I  AM HOT TRAINED AS A POPULATION EXPERT FOR INTERNATIONAL STUD IES AND THAT SORT OF T H IN G , BUT I  CAN READ THE U .S .  C E N SU S, AND HAVE DONE IT  OFTEN.Q . ARE YOU Q U A LIFIE D  TO DRAW A CONCLUSION ON THED IFFER EN T IA L THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IN LIG H T OF ST U D IE S OF RICHMOND IN  GENERAL AND DESEGREGATION IN PARTICULAR AS RELATED TO THE FACTORS OF SEGREGATION AND DESEGREGATION THAT WE HAVE D ISC U SSE D ?A . Y E S , I  THINK S O .Q . YOUR HONOR, I  WOULD AT T H IS TIME SEEK TO ASK THATQUESTION A G A IN . I  UNDERSTAND THAT THE O B JECTIO N  S T IL L  IS  PENDING.THE COURT; I  W ILL LET HIM ANSWER I T .MR. LUCYKi JU D G E , THE OTHER ASPECT OF MY O B JE C T IO N ,WE HAVE NOTED AN O BJECTIO N  TO THE ACCURACY OF T H IS DOCUMENT. THE FOUR PERCENTAGES ON THAT BOTTOM LIN E  ARE WRONG AND IMPROPERLY CALCULATED. PERHAPS DR. CRAIN CAN FIGURE IT  OUT.I  CAN WORK IT  OUT WITH HIM WITH THE PERM ISSION OF THE COURT,



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BUT PERHAPS —  BUT IT  IS  THEIR DOCUMENT.MR. MINCBERG: WE HAD ASKED THE STATE QUITE A LONG TIME AGO. I  THOUGHT WE REACHED A ST IPU LA T IO N  ON ALL OF THE E X H IB IT S , THAT WE CHECK EACH OTHERS AND I F  WE FOUND INACCURACIES TO TRY TO REVOLVE THEM. I  GLANCED AT MR. L U C Y K 'S . THE NUMBERS ARE NOT S IG N IF IC A N T L Y  D IFFE R E N T , IT  IS  A DECIMAL POINT HERE AND THERE. I  SUSPECT I  WOULD BE W ILLING TO AMEND IT  RIGHT HERE AND NOW TO INCLUDE H IS  NUMBERS.THE COURT: WHAT ARE YOUR NUMBERS?MR. LU CYK: OKAY, JU D G E , I  W ILL START FROM RIGHT AND WORK L E F T . NON BLACKS UNDER '7 5 -* 8 0  SHOULD BE 21 POINT 3 PERCENT. 7 POINT 6 SHOULD BE 7 POINT 0 .5 POINT 7 SHOULD BE 5 POINT 4 ,  AND 1 POINT 9 SHOULD BE 1 POINT 8 .  SO THERE IS  A S IG N IF IC A N T  D IFFER EN CE. AND I F  YOU WANT TO FIGURE OUT HOW THAT I S ,  IF  YOU C A N 'T , LET ME KNOW AND I  W ILL EXPLAIN IT  TO YOU.MR. MINCBERG: WE ARE HAPPY TO ST IPU LATE THOSE ARE THE CORRECT PERCENTAGES, TO AVOID D IF F IC U L T Y .A . I  CAN LOOK AT THE HAW NUMBERS WHICH I  ASSUME THERE ISNO DISPUTE AND TALK ABOUT RAW NUMBERS.Q . WHY DON'T YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION BASED ON THE RAWNUMBERS, AND ON MR. L U C Y K 'S  S I X  CA LCU LA T IO N S, I  W ILL DOUBLE CHECK THEM I F  I  MAY BEFORE I  AGREE TO THAT ST IPU LA T IO N  IN STONE. BUT ASSUME FOR THE MOMENT THAT MR. L U C Y K 'S  FIGURESARE CORRECT AND THE PERCENTAGES ARE CORRECT AND THE NUMBERS



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ARE CORRECT. BASED ON THAT, DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER THE INCREASE IN  THE PERCENT LOST TO C IT Y  OF NON BLACKS IN THE PERIOD '6 5  TO '7 0  VERSUS '7 5  TO '8 0  HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE ATTITUDES CREATED BY STATE-SPONSORED SEGREGATION TO WHICH YOU HAVE REFERRED PREVIOUSLY IN  YOUR TESTIMONY?A . WELL, WHAT THE TABLE SHOWS, THE F IR S T  TABLE SHOWS —THE TABLE WON'T TELL YOU ANYTHING ABOUT WHETHER SCHOOL DESEGREGATION DID ANYTHING. THE TABLE W ILL TELL YOU HOW MANY NON BLACKS MOVED WHERE. BUT I F  YOU LOOK AT THE PATTERN FOR THESE TWO CENSUS L I S T S , THE 1980 CENSUS WHICH ASKS ABOUT WHERE WE LIV E D  F IV E  YEARS E A R L IE R , AND 1980 ASKS THE SAME Q U ESTIO N , WHAT DO YOU SEE ON THE 1970 CENSUS IS  THAT ROUGHLY SPEAKING FOR EVERY THREE PEOPLE WHO MOVE FROM THE C IT Y  TO THE COUNTY, NON B LA CK S, THERE WERE A COUPLE, TWO, WHO MOVED FROM THE COUNTY TO THE C IT Y .AND FOR EVERY THREE PEOPLE WHO CAME FROM OUTSIDE THE RICHMOND AREA AND MOVED INTO THE CO U N T IES, THERE WERE TOO MORE NON BLACKS WHO MOVED INTO THE C IT Y .SO THAT THERE IS  SORT OF A TOO TO THREE R A T IO . LOOKS L IK E  THAT ROUGHLY HOLDS IN  THE *6 5 -7 0  P E R IO D .WHEN YOU GO TEN YEARS LATER WHAT YOU FIND I S  A SMALLER NUMBER OF WHITES IN 1980 L IV IN G  IN THE C IT Y  SAYING THEY CAME FROM THE COUNTY, ONLY 7 THOUSAND SOMETHING INSTEAD OF THE 11THOUSAND SOMETHING BEFORE. AND A LARGER NUMBER NOW L IV IN G  IN



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THE COUNTY WHO SAY THEY CAME FROM THE C IT Y , ABOUT 35 THOUSAND. SO THE RATIO IS  NOT TOO TO THREE BUT MORE LIK E L Y  ONE TO F IV E  OR SOMETHING L IK E  THAT.SIM ILA R LY  I F  YOU LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO CAME INTO RICHMOND FROM THE O U T SID E , IT  LOOKS L IK E  FOR EVERY TOO PEOPLE WHO CAME FROM THE OUTSIDE OF THE METRO AREA AND MOVED TO THE C I T Y , BEFORE THERE WERE ABOUT THREE THAT MOVED TO THE COUNTY FOR EVERY TWO THAT MOVED TO THE C IT Y . NCW IT  LOOKS L IK E  THERE IS  MAYBE F IV E  THAT MOVED TO THE COUNTY FOR EVERY TWO WHO MOVED TO THE C IT Y .T H IS IS  CONSISTENT —  NO. T H IS IS  CONSISTENT WITH WHAT I  SA ID  E A R L IE R , THAT THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN FLIGH T OF WHITES OUT OF THE RICHMOND PU B LIC SCHOOLS FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS AFTER DESEGREGATION IN  1 9 7 1 . AND THESE RESULTS ARE CONSISTENT WITH THAT.Q . THANK YOU.A . I  DON'T MEAN TO BE PERSNICKETY ABOUT THAT, BUT AS AMETHODOLOGIST YOU HAVE TO SAY YOU CAN NEVER PROVE THAT ANYTHING IS  TRUE, YOU ONLY HAKE A CONVINCING ARGUMENT. I  GUESS THAT I S  AN OBVIOUS P O IN T , BUT THE FORMAL D E FIN IT IO N  OF MATHEMATICAL PROOF I S  IT  I S  A S E R IE S  OF STATEMENTS SUCH I F  YOU READ THEM FROM TOP TO BOTTOM YOU B E LIE V E  THE BOTTOM ONE. THAT I S  AS FANCY AS YOU CAN G E T .Q , THAT I S  ALL I  WAS A SK IN G . I  THINK YOUR PHRASING WASMORE APPROPRIATE THAN M INE, AND I  APPRECIATE THAT.



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THE COURT: WHAT IT  MEANS I S ,  YOU DON’ T KNOW WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW, I S  THAT WHAT YOU ARE SA Y IN G ?A . WHAT IT  MEANS IS  L IF E  IS  A G U E S S , BUT ON THE OTHERHAND WHEN YOU CROSS ST R E E T S, CROSS WITH THE GREEN LIGHT BECAUSE YOUR —  BECAUSE YOU GUESS YOUR CHANCES ARE BETTER. YOU CA N 'T  PROVE YCXJ W ILL GET ACROSS THE ST REET , BUT YOU DO THE BEST YOU CAN.THE COURT: I  WISH I  HAD NOT STARTED. GO AHEAD.Q . D R. C R A IN , ONE OTHER POINT WITH RESPECT TO WITHDRAWALOF WHITES FROM THE SYSTEM . YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU SAW MANY HAD GONE TO THE COUNTY. COULD THEY ALSO HAVE GONE DURING T H IS PERIOD TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS AND S T IL L  ACTUALLY LIVED  WITHIN THE C IT Y ?A . Y E S , THEY COULD HAVE. AND MY RECOLLECTION FROMLOOKING AT THE SCHOOL CENSUS INDICATED THERE WAS QUITE A CONSIDERABLE INCREASE IN PRIVATE SCHOOL ENROLEMENT.Q . DO YOU RECALL WHETHER THAT INCREASE WAS PRIM ARILYWHITE OR BLACK?A . PRIM ARILY W HITE.Q . DR. C R A IN , YOU ALSO REFERRED TO THE EFFECTS OFSEGREGATION ON PARENTS OF TO D AY'S SCHOOL CH ILD REN . I  WOULD L IK E  YOU TO TURN THE PAGE AND LOOK AT R . P . S .  18 ALSO BASED ON CENSUS DATA YEARS OF SCHOOL COMPLETED BY PERSONS 25 YEARS OLD AND OVER, 1970 TO 1 9 8 0 . DO YOU SEE THAT?A . Y E S .



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Q . WITH RESPECT AGAIN HERE TO THE D IS P A R IT IE S  BETWEEN THEEDUCATIONAL ATTAINMENT OF BLACKS IN THE C IT Y  OF RICHMOND, ADULTS, BOTH 1970 AND IN 1980 VERSUS WHITES IN THE C IT Y  OF RICHMOND AND STATE WIDE TO TALS, DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO WHETHER THAT I S  RELATED TO THE SEGREGATED SYSTEM?A . W ELL, WHAT E X H IB IT  18 SHOWS IS  THAT IN 1970 AND IN1980 THE NUMBER OF BLACK ADULTS WHO HAD HOT GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL WAS CONSIDERABLY LARGER THAN THE PERCENTAGE OF WHITE ADULTS OR NON BLACKS WHO HAD HOT GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL. PERCENTAGE DROPPING FOR BOTH GROUPS, WHICH IS  GOOD. A G A IN , THE TABLE IS  CONSISTENT WITH WHAT I  SA ID  ABOUT STUD IES SHOWING THAT THE EFFECTS OF SEGREGATED SCHOOL I S  TO INCREASE THE BLACK DROP OUTS.Q . WOULD THE EDUCATIONAL ATTAINMENT OF THE PARENTS OFTO D A Y'S BLACK CHILDREN IN RICHMOND INFLUENCE THEIR A B IL IT Y  TO HELP THEIR CHILDREN WITH THEIR EDUCATION TODAY?A . ABSOLUTELY. SU RE.Q . THANK YOU.THE COURT* ANY CRO SS-EXAM INATIO N?CROSS-EXAM INATIONBY MR. FORCH:Q . HELLO, D R . C R A IN .A . H I .Q . I  FEEL L IK E  A BABY IN  THE WOODS TRAPSING INTO YOURTERRITORY



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THE COURT: THERE I S  A WAY TO AVOID THAT.A . ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU PRODABLY TOLD THAT TO SOMECORPORATION EXECUTIVE LAST WEEK AND SOME INTERNATIONAL O IL  SH IPPER NEXT WEEK. I  AM ASTONISHED AT LAWYERS BEING ABLE TO BECOME EXPERTS IN  A THOUSAND DIFFERENT F IE LD S IN  A PARTICULAR C A S E . I  AM ALSO IMPRESSED WITH WHAT YOU SA Y .Q . WHEN YOU WERE STUDYING SEGREGATED VERSUS DESEGREGATEDENVIRONMENTS AND DRAWING YOUR D E C ISIO N  A DESEGREGATED ENVIRONMENT RESULTS IN INCREASED ACHIEVEMENT, WHAT I S  YOUR D E F IN IT IO N ? WHAT D E F IN IT IO N S ARE U IT L IZ E D  IN  YOUR S T A T IS T IC A L  SAMPLE WHAT MAKES A SCHOOL SEGREGATED, AND WHAT MAKES A SCHOOL DESEGREGATED?I S  IT  R ACIAL COM POSITION?A . Y E S .Q . I S  IT  MORE THAN 50 PERCENT? I S  A MORE THAN 50 PERCENTBLACK I S  A SEGREGATED SCHOOL, I S  THAT HOW YOU WORK I T ?A . IT  V A R IE S FROM ONE STATE TO ANOTHER. BUT A LOT OFTIMES —  Y E S , IN  A LOT OF STU D IES I  WOULD WIND UP SAYING THE SCHOOL IS  PREDOMINANTLY BLACK , PUTTING ALL THE SCHOOLS IN ONE CATEGORY, BECAUSE MOST OF THOSE SCHOOLS W ILL BE 99 PERCENT BLACK OR 90 PERCENT BLACK . THERE ARE FORTUNATELY FOR S T A T IS T IC A L  PURPOSES IT  I S  FORTUNATE THERE ARE RELATIVELY FEW. THERE ARE ONLY 60 OR 70 PERCENT BLACK BECAUSE THEY ARE HARD TO FIGURE WHAT TO DO W ITH.Q . WELL, YOU HAVE DRAWN THE CONCLUSION THAT ATTENDANCE AT



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A DESEGREGATED SCHOOL ENVIRONMENT, ONE THAT MEETS YOUR S T A T IS T IC A L  NUMBERS, R A ISE S ACHIEVEMENT, BUT I S N 'T  IT  TRUE THAT IN YOUR F IE L D  OF STUDY NOBODY REALLY KNOWS WHY THAT RESULT OCCURS?A . WELL, I  AM A L IT T L E  UNSURE. IN  A SENSE NOBODY EVERKNOWS WHY ANYTHING. BUT CERTAINLY YOU HAVE TO BE SOMEWHAT SPECU LATIVE AS TO WHY, THAT I S  R IG H T .Q . I S N 'T  A KEY FACTOR THE IN FU SIO N  OF HIGHER CLASSSTUDENTS IN THE DESEGREGATED ENVIRONMENT THAT IS  HAVING AN UNFAVORABLE EFFECT ON ACHIEVEMENT?A . A LOT OF THE AN ALYSIS IN D ICATES —THE COURT: I  HAVE TO INTERRUPT. IN FU SIO N  OF HIGHER CLASS STUDENTS, I S  THAT?Q . HIGHER ECONOMIC C L A S S .A . HE f4EANS HIGHER STATUS OR MORE AFFLUENT, I  TH IN K .THE COURT: ALL R IG H T .A . THE O R IG IN A L COLEMAN A N ALYSIS INDICATED THAT IT  WASMAINLY THE AFFLUENCE OF THE EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND OF THE WHITE K ID S THAT WAS SO B E N E F IC IA L . I  THINK THAT IS  PRETTY SOUND. I  THINK THAT I S  ONE OF THE REASONS.Q . SO IT  I S  NOT SOLELY R A CE, IT  I S  ALSO SO C IO  ECONOMICC L A SS?A . THAT IS  R IG H T .Q . YOU WROTE AN AR TICLE IN 1 9 8 2 , A RAND NOTE ENTITLEDDESEGREGATION PLANS THAT R A IS E  BLACK ACHIEVEMENT, A REVIEW OF



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THE RESEARCH.THE RESEARCH YOU REVIEW STATES HISTORY POINTS IN  TH IS REPORT, POINTS TO S I X  GENERAL CON CLU SIO N S, THE MAJOR ONE OF WHICH I S  "DESEGREGATION R A ISE S ACHIEVEMENT TEST SCORES FOR BLACK STUDENTS.THEN YOU STATE THAT SEVERAL INPUT OUTPUT STU D IES HAVE SHOWN THAT THE PRESENCE OF MIDDLE CLASS STUDENTS IN A SCHOOL I S  THE KEY FACTOR IN  R A ISIN G  BLACK ACHIEVEMENT. INPUT OUTPUT STU D IES HAVE ALSO SHOWN THAT H ISPA N IC  M IN O R IT IE S BENEFIT FROM DESEGREGATION TO THE SAME DEGREE THAT BLACK STUDENTS. DO YOU RECALL THAT?A . WELL, I  AM SURE I  WROTE I T .Q . T H IS SUGGESTS THAT ANY LCW INCOME GROUP W ILL BENEFITACADEMICALLY FROM ATTENDING A SCHOOL WHOSE STUDENTS ARE PREDOMINANTLY HIGHER ST A T U S, REGARDLESS OF THE ETH N ICITY OF EITHER THE HIGHER STATUS OR LOWER STATUS GROUP.A . I  THINK THAT IS  TRUE, Y E S .Q . NOW, DR. C R A IN , ON YOUR PROJECT CONCERN THAT YOUWORKED ON WHERE YOU TOOK K ID S OUT OF INNER C IT Y  UP IN HARTFORD AND BROUGHT THEM INTO THE SUBURBAN SCHOOLS?A . Y E S .Q . YOU SA ID  BY ATTENDING SUBURBAN SCHOOLS YOU FOUND ADECREASE IN DROP OUT RATES?A . Y E S .Q . AND ALL OR THE OTHER PLUS FACTORS, I S N 'T  IT  TRUE YOU



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DON'T HAVE A COMPARABLE ENVIRONMENT? IN  THE F IR S T  PLACE YOU ARE COMPARING INNER C IT Y  ENVIRONMENT WITH SUBURBAN ENVIRONMENT?A . COMPARING INNER C IT Y  SCHOOLS WITH SUBURBAN SCHOOLS,Y E S .Q . ANY CONTROLS ON THE CURRICULUM, THE TYPE OF CURRICULUMTHAT WAS GOING ON THERE?A . NO.Q . OKAY. I S N 'T  IT  TRUE THAT THE CHILDREN WHO LEFT THEINNER C IT Y  SCHOOLS TO GO TO THE SUBURBAN SCHOOLS TOOK WITH THEM THE TEACHERS THEY HAD IN  THE INNER C IT Y  SCHOOLS?A . Y E S , BUT THOSE TEACHERS D ID N 'T  TEACH THEM.Q . WHAT DID  THEY DO?A . THEY TUTORED THEM.Q . EXCUSE ME?A . THE TEACHERS WERE ASSIGN ED  AS TUTORS TO THE WHOLESCHOOL RATHER THAN TO PARTICULAR K ID S .Q . DID THEY R ECEIVE ADDITIONAL SUPPORT FROM THOSETEACHERS?A . Y E S , THEY D ID .Q . OKAY. I S N 'T  IT  TRUE ALSO THAT IN THAT PROJECT OFCONCERL THAT YOU WORKED ON THERE WAS HEAVY ATTENTION FROM THE K ID S THAT WENT TO THE SUBURBAN SCHOOL, AT LEAST HALF WENT BACK TO THE URBAN SCHOOL?A . THAT IS  R IG H T .



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Q . I S N 'T  IT  TRUE, A L SO , THAT IN THAT PROJECT CONCERN THATA NUMBER OP CHILDREN IN THAT CONTROL GROUP AND IN THE SUBURBAN SCHOOLS CONTAIN A NUMBER OF CHILDREN WHO SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN IN  A HIGHER C L A S S E S , AND THAT ALSO BIASED  YOUR RESULT?A . Y E S .Q . ALL R IG H T .A . I  SUSPECT I  SHOULD IN RESPONSE TO THAT QUESTION SORTOF GO THROUGH THE D ETAILS OF THE HARTFORD STUD Y. YOU HAVE POINTED OUT SEVERAL PROBLEMS WITH THE STUD Y. I  SHOULD TALK ABOUT —  SHOULD PROBABLY DO MORE THAN SA Y , Y E S . TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT I  D ID  SOMETHING ABOUT THE PROBLEM.THE COURTi SORT OF MAKES UP FOR YOUR VIEW OF M IL L IK IN  TWO. IT  DOES ST R IK E  ME AS HAVING TO BRING THOSE TEACHERS AS THE TUTORS AS SORT OF PUTTING THE F IX  I N , I S N 'T  IT ?A . ACTUALLY, ~  WELL, L E T 'S  F IR S T  D IST IN G U ISH  BETWEEN MYHARTFORD STUDY AND THE HARTFORD STUDY OF ACHIEVEMENT TEST SC O R E S, WHICH WAS DONE EARLY ON.I  THINK —  SO L E T 'S  KEEP TWO DIFFERENT STU D IES FROM HARTFORD ST R A IG H T . F IR S T  LET ME D ESCRIBE THE HARTFORD STUDY.IN  1966 THERE WAS W O  LO TTERIES RUN TO SELECT ABOUT 266 K ID S AND ABOUT 300 K ID S FOR THE ONES WHO WENT TO THE SUBURBS AND THE ONES THAT DID NOT. THAT STUDY WAS REPORTED, PUBLISHED IN  A JO U RN A L. I  REVIEWED THAT PAPER. HE IN THAT PAPER SEPARATES THOSE K ID S WHO WERE, WHO RECEIVED THE



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ADDITIONAL TUTORING FROM OTHER K ID S WHO WERE ALSO SENT TO THE SUBURBS AND DID  NOT R ECEIVE ADDITIONAL TUTORING.AND ALSO K ID S IN THE INNER C IT Y  WHO RECEIVED AN ADDITIONAL COMPENSATORY EDUCATION PROGRAM VERSUS THOSE WHO D ID  NOT. THAT IS  TO S A Y , THE STUDY WAS DONE CROSSING THE EFFECTS OF DESEGREGATION AND THE EFFECTS OF THE COMMENSURATE PROGRAM. AND WHAT HE FOUND WAS THAT IT  WAS THE DESEGREGATION EFFECT THAT WAS IMPORTANT, HAVING THE EXTRA TEACHER WAS NOT WHAT WAS MAKING THE B IG  DIFFERENCE WHEN HE DID THAT STUD Y.NOW, THE MAIN REASON FOR THE TEACHER, BY THE WAY, I S  ESSEN TIALLY REALLY P O L IT IC A L , YOU MIGHT S A Y . WHAT THEY DID  WAS DREW LO TTERIES OF FULL CLASSROOMS AND CLOSED DOWN 12 INNER C IT Y  CLASSROOMS AND SH IPPED  THE K ID S OUT. BUT D ID N 'T  WANT TO LAY THE TEACHERS O F F , SO THEY RODE ON THE BUS WITH THE K ID S AND WORKED OUT OF THE SCH O OLS. IT  IS  A GOOD ID EA AND A GOOD THING THEY DID IT  BECAUSE THERE WERE ALMOST NO BLACK TEACHERS IN THE SUBURBS. BUT IT  W ASN'T DESIGNED AS A SO PH IST ICA TED  COMPENSATORY EDUCATION PROGRAM.NOW, IN MY STUDY WHICH I S  A STUDY OF COLLEGE ATTENDANCE AND EMPLOYMENT AND CH ILD  BEARING AND DELINQUENCY, ATTITUDES TOWARDS W HITES, IT  IS  JU S T  INCONCEIVABLE TO ME THAT HAVING ONE EXTRA BLACK TEACHER IN YOUR SCHOOL COULD HAVE —  COULD EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SEGREGATED INNER C IT Y  K ID S AND THE SUBURBAN K ID S IN TERMS OF HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT MAKING FRIENDS IN COLLEGE OR HCW THEY FEEL ABOUT



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WORKING UNDER A WHITE SU P E R V ISO R . THAT I S ,  WHAT KIND OF JO B  THEY WOULD L IK E  TO HAVE. THAT EXTRA TEACHER COULD HAVE A DIFFERENCE ON THE ACHIEVEMENT LE V E L , BUT IT  COULDN'T HAVE A D IFFE R E N CE , I  DON'T THINK THAT IS  WORTH PAYING ATTENTION TO , IN  TERMS OF COLLEGE AND THE OTHER T H IN G S.NOW, DOES THAT MEAN SOMETHING? I  THINK THERE I S  NO REAL PROBLEM WITH THE LONG TERM EFFECTS OF DESEGREGATION,THEY ARE SHOWING UP CONSISTENTLY IN  SEVERAL DIFFERENT S T U D IE S . I  AM CONVINCED HARTFORD I S  ONE OF THE BETTER S T U D IE S . BUT LET ME CONTINUE TO CLEAN UP THE HARTFORD STUDY. THE O RIGIN AL 266 K ID S W ASN'T ENOUGH TO S A T IS F Y  ME. F IR S T  OF A L L , I  KNEW THERE WAS A LOT THAT MOVED OUT OF TOWN AND SO FORTH, SO I  NEEDED TO FATTEN THE SAMPLE. SO I  TRIED  TO TAKE THE NEXT TWO YEARS OF K ID S THAT WENT OUT. THEY WERE ALL SELECTED BY LOTTERY. UNFORTUNATELY THEY D ID N 'T  SELECT A CONTROL GROUP, ONLY THE K ID S . SO THAT I S  E A SY, I  W ILL GO BACK AND RECONSTRUCT A COMPLETE L IS T  OF ANYBODY IN  LOW INCOME SCHOOLS, IN THE LOW INCOME SCHOOLS IN HARTFORD AND DRAW MY OWN CONTROL GROUP. I  CAN FIND THE OLD RECORDS FROM '6 8 .  I  W ILL DRAW A NEW L I S T .ALAS I  APPARENTLY DID IT  WRONG, BECAUSE WHEN I  THEN F IN IS H E D , THE TWO L IS T S  D ID N 'T  MATCH IN TERMS OF THE INCOME LEVEL OF THE K ID S ; PARENTS.SO APPARENTLY WHEN I  DID  MY DRAWING I  GOT IT  O F F .NOW, THERE I S  A STANDARD PROCEDURE WHICH YOU CAN,



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WHICH IS  U SED , WHICH IS  CALLED MULTIPLE REGRESSION OR AN ALYSIS COVARIANCE. I  ALSO HAD SECOND GRADE TEST SC O R E S. I  COULD USE THOSE AS ADDITIONAL CONTROLS, BUT T H IS IS  WHAT I  CALL A MISMATCH RANDOM SAM PLE, THE FACT THAT I  DRAW A RANDOM CONTROL GROUP IS  BETTER THAN JU S T  TAKING A GROUP THAT SOMEBODY ELSE HANDED TO ME. BUT ON THE OTHER HAND THE FACT THAT I  DREW IT  WRONG OBVIOUSLY MADE IT  WORSE. SO NOW I  HAD TWO S T U D IE S . ONE WAS A GOOD RANDOMIZED STU D Y, BUT IT  WAS SM ALL. IT  WAS SHOWING P O S IT IV E  EFFECTS OF DESEGREGATION.THE SECOND ONE WAS A RANDOMIZED STUDY WHICH WAS B IG G E R . THAT I S  GOOD, BUT WHICH HAD A B IA S  IN IT  WHICH HAD TO BE CORRECTED BY A S T A T IS T IC A L  R EG R E SSIO N . IT  WAS SHOWING AN EFFECT ON THE TOP OF WHICH THERE WERE ANOTHER BUNCH OF K ID S WHO I  WENT THROUGH ALL OF THE SCHOOL RECORDS UP IN  THE A T T IC  OF T H IS SCHOOL AND THERE WAS NO RECORD THESE K ID S THAT HAD BEEN SELECTED BY LOTTERY AT A L L . I  COULDN'T FIND THE O RIGIN AL L IS T IN G  TO SHOW THEY HAD BEEN SELECTED BY LOTTERY.I  S A ID , I  C A N 'T  F IN D , I F  I  C A N 'T  A FIND A L IS T  I  W ILL ASSUME THEY HADN'T BEEN SELECTED BY LOTTERY. AND I  OPENED ANOTHER F IL E  AND LOW AND BEHOLD SOME DAYS YOU ARE IN LU CK . I  FOUND A SET OF TELEPHONE MESSAGES DATED 1968 FROM PEOPLE TRYING TO GET THEIR K ID S IN THE PROGRAM, WHICU HAD NOT BEEN RETURNED.I  MEAN THEY HAD NOT BEEN CALLED BACK. SO I  HAD A L IS T  OF PEOPLE TRYING TO GET I N . AND I  THOUGHT WELL I F  YOU WANTED TO COMPARE PEOPLE WHO GOT INTO THE PROGRAM BECAUSE THEY TRIED  TO



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TO COMPARE THEM TO THE GROUP THAT D ID  TRY TO GET IN AND CO U LD N 'T , SO I  COMPARED THOSE. ALL THREE OF THESE S T U D IE S , SEPARATE L IT T L E  STUD IES ALL SHOWED THE SAME P O S IT IV E  EFFECTS PRETTY CO N SISTEN TLY.SO I  FIGURED THREE TIMES OUT OF THREE ARE GOOD ENOUGH.THE STUDY, BY THE WAY, WAS REVIEWED BY —  RAND CORPORATION DOES REVIEWS SO THAT ANYTHING THAT GOES OUT OF THE BUILD ING HAD TO BE REVIEWED BY TWO OR MORE PEO PLE. T H IS WAS REVIEWED BY THREE PEO PLE, LINDA LARLINGHAM, P O L IT IC A L  S C IE N T IS T  IN EDUCATION, ANTHONY PA SK A L, AN ECONOMIST WHO IS  PRETTY CONCERNED ABOUT THE RACE IS S U E , AND DONALD CAMPBELL, WHO IS  PROBABLY THE MOST FAMOUS NAME IN THE EDUCATIONAL EVALUATION B U S IN E S S . ALL THREE OF THEM ESSEN TIALLY SIGNED OFF AND SA ID  B A SIC A LLY  I  HAD EVIDENCE THAT THE —  THAT IT  WORKS. SO THE STUDY WAS, WE DID THE BEST WE COULD.NOW, BACK TO THE OTHER THING WHICH IS  ABOUT THE O RIGIN AL ACHIEVEMENT PROBLEM, THE O R IGIN A L QUESTION HOW MUCH WOULD THE 1968 STUDY, THE ONE I  DID NOT DO, THE O RIGIN AL SAMPLE, YOU DO HAVE THE ATTR ICIAN  PROBLEM, YOU DO HAVE THE PRESENCE OF THE EXTRA TEACHER, BUT MY ARGUMENT HERE FOR WHY I  AM S A T IS F IE D  THAT CONSIDERATION I S  GREATER ACHIEVEMENT, IS  THAT TH IS IS  NOT THE ONLY RANDOMIZED STUD Y. THERE WAS ANOTHER ONE IN NEW HAVEN, ANOTHER ONE IN ROCHESTER, AND THERE WAS RUN I  REALLY LIK ED  IN  NEWARK, WHICH WAS DONE QUITE WELL AND WHICH D ID N 'T  SEEM TO HAVE ANY PROBLEMS AT A L L .



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SOME OF THEM SHOWED G A IN S IN ACHIEVEMENT, AND ALL OF THE GAIN S WERE GENERALLY WITH THE YOUNGER K ID S QUITE B I G . SO I F  IT  WERE HARTFORD BY IT S E L F  I  WOULD WORRY ABOUT THE IS S U E S  YOU R A IS E D . I  AM CONSOLED BY THE FACT THAT THERE ARE THESE THREE OR FOUR OTHER STU D IES WHICH ARE ALSO RANDOMIZED. I  GAVE YOU A LONG ANSWER.Q . D R. C R A IN , AS A SO C IO L O G IST  WOULDN'T YOU AGREEACADEM IC, SO C IA L ECONOMIC PHENOMINA I S  A VERY COMPLEX IS S U E , VERY D IF F IC U L T  TO ISO LATE OUT CAUSES?A . C E R T A IN LY.Q . I S N 'T  IT  TRUE THAT WE HAVE TO BE WARY IN  DRAWINGCONCLUSIONS FROM S T A T IS T IC A L  AN ALYSIS BECAUSE THEY C A N 'T  CONTROL FOR ALL THE V A R IA B LE S?

A . ABSOLUTELY.

Q. NOW, MR. C R A IN , WHEN I  TOOK YOUR D EPO SITIO N  I  ASKEDYOU ABOUT THE IMPACT OF A SEGREGATED EDUCATION ON A PARENT IN TERMS OF THE EFFECT ON A C H IL D . YOU STATED, COUNSEL, AT PAGE 5 2 , MY QUESTION TO YOU WAS, MR. C R A IN , ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY RESEARCH ON THE EXTENT TO WHICH PARENTS R ECEIVE SEGREGATED EDUCATION S T IL L  NONE THE L E SS  VALUE EDUCATION FOR THEIR CHILDREN VERY HIGHLY?
YOU STATED, WELL, LET ME ANSWER THE QUESTION IN  MY OWN

WAY. OKAY.YOUR ANSWER: IT  IS  MY B E L IE F  THAT SOUTHERN BLACKS



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R AISED  IN SEGREGATED SCHOOLS VALUE EDUCATION VERY H IG H LY. PROBABLY MORE HIGHLY THAN WHITES DO.Q UESTION : WHY I S  THAT?ANSWER: THE SHORT ANSWER WE DON'T KNCW.A . THE LONG ANSWER I S  THAT FOR YEARS BLACKS HAVE HAD TOBET ON EDUCATION BECAUSE HOW BAD THE EDUCATION SYSTEM WAS IT  WAS THE FA IR E ST  SYSTEM WE HAD, THAT I S  TO SAY I F  YOU HAD A CHOICE BETWEEN DEPEND ON A N ICE WHITE MAN TO G IV E  YOUR KID  A JO B  AND SENDING YOUR KID  OFF TO GET A COLLEGE DEGREE, YOU HAD TO SEND YOUR KID OFF TO GET A COLLEGE DEGREE. S O , BLACKS HAVE ALWAYS RELIED  ON USING THE SCHOOLS AS THEIR AVENUE OF GETTING AHEAD.ONE OF THE CHEERY THINGS ABOUT HARTFORD I S  THAT THE DESEGREGATED HARTFORD K ID S ARE W ILLING TO TRY PRIVATE INDUSTRY RATHER THAN GOING OFF TO GRADUATE SCHOOL FOR MASTERS DEGREES SOMETIMES. BUT, I F  I  GAVE THE IM PRESSION IN MY TESTIMONY THAT BLACKS AND BLACKS FROM SEGREGATED SCHOOLS DON'T B E LIE V E  IN  EDUCATION AND A R EN 'T MOTIVATED TO GET THEIR K ID S AN EDUCATION, I  D ID N 'T  MEAN TO G IV E  THAT IM PR E SSIO N .Q . I  WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION OR TWO ABOUT THE E X H IB IT SYOU WERE SHOWN IN TERMS OF THE MOVEMENT OF POPULATION FROM THE C IT I E S  TO THE CO U N TIES.I  THINK IT  WAS E X H IB IT  17 AND E X H IB IT  1 8 .OF WHAT YOU SAW THERE IS  IT  DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHERMETROPOLITAN ARLA THAT YOU ARE AWARE O F?



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A . W ELL, WITHOUT FIGURES TO —  IT  I S  GENERALLY THE CASETHAT IN ALL METROPOLITAN AREAS WHITES ARE MOVING, AS THE METRO AREAS GROW WHITES ARE MOVING OUT OF THE C IT Y  INTO THE SUBURBS AND BLACKS ARE ALSO MOVING OUT OF THE C IT IE S  INTO THE SUBURBS. WITHOUT HAVING THE DATA FOR OTHER SCHOOL D IS T R IC T S , OR RATHER, SORRY, C IT I E S  AND C O U N T IE S, THAT IS  NOT FA IR  TO COMPARE IT  TO . YOU C A N 'T  SAY FROM THESE DATA THERE IS  MORE MOVEMENT THAN THERE WAS. YOU CAN SAY THAT THERE IS  A LOT MORE MOVEMENT IN THE HALF DECADE '7 5  TO *85 THAN THERE WAS IN •65 TO ' 7 0 .  THAT I  PRESUME I S ,  THAT I S  ONE IMPORTANT POINT THE TABLE MAKES, I  SU PPO SE . THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THAT IS  MORE FLIGHT THAN WOULD YOU WOULD GET IN CH ICA GO , YOU WOULD HAVE TO SEE THE NOTES.Q . I  THINK YOU ID E N T IF IE D  A LADY NAMED CH R IST IN E  ROSSELLAS A TOP NOTCH EXPERT IN TERMS OF WHITE F L IG H T , I S  THAT HER NAME?A . Y E S . R . O . S .  S .  E . L .  L .Q . ARE YOU FAM ILIAR WITH HER RESEARCH?A . HOST OF I T .Q . DOESN’ T SHE CONCLUDE THAT THE IMPACT OF THEDESEGREGATION DECREASE I S  THAT THERE IS  AN IMMEDIATE RESPONSE TO THE COMMUNITY THAT S T A B IL IZ E D  OVER TIME IN TERMS OF WHITE FLIG H T BUT THAT THE IMMEDIATE IMPACT ONLY AROUND THE F IR S T  YEAR OR TWO OF THAT BUSING DECREE?A . W ELL, SHE FOR A LONG PERIOD SA ID  THAT THE APPARENT



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WHITE FLIGH T EFFECTS LAST FOR ABOUT FOUR Y E A R S. SO THAT IF  YOU APPLY THAT TO RICHMOND YOU WOULD HAVE TO SAY THAT THE FLIG H T FOLLOWING —  IN T E R E ST IN G . I  CAN ELABORATE ON T H IS . TH IS D ID N 'T  OCCUR E A R LIE R .I F  YOU PICK  UP ON C H R IS ,  SHE WOULD SAY THAT THE LOSS FROM 1971 TO 1975 I S  THE WHITE FLIGHT LOSS DUE TO THE TRAUMA OF DESEGREGATION. NOWr T H IS TABLE COVERS MOVEMENT OF F A M ILIE S FROM '7 5  TO '8 0 ,  WHICH IS  AFTER THAT. AND WHAT TH IS TABLE SHOWS IS  THAT THERE IS  A MUCH BIGGER S H IF T  BETWEEN THE '6 5 - '7 0  HALF DECADE AND THE '7 5 - '8 0  HALF DECADE AND ACCORDING TO HER THEORY YOU PROBABLY C A N 'T  ATTRIBUTE T H IS TO THE DIRECT TRAUMA OF THE DESEGREGATION IN 1 9 7 1 . PROBABLY C A N 'T . IF  THAT I S  THE C A S E , WHAT COULD YOU SAY YOU ATTRIBUTE I T ,  TOO? CAN ATTRIBU TE. WELL, ONE THING I  HAVE SEEN IN OTHER METRO AREAS CONSISTENT WITH TH IS I S  E SSEN TIALLY A SITU ATIO N  WHERE AS THE C IT I E S  LOSE MORE AND MORE RESIDENTS OF ONE RACE, C IT Y  LOSES MORE AND MORE W H ITES, YOU CAN SEE ACCELERATION JU S T  AS A RESULT OF THAT. IN  FACT, THE PU B LIC SCHOOLS ARE 13 PERCENT WHITE NOW. IT  DOESN'T MATTER WHEN DESEGREGATION OCCURRED. SCHOOL OF 13 PERCENT WHITE WON'T HOLD ANYBODY. IN  1975 THE SCHOOL SYSTEM WAS PROBABLY NOT MUCH MORE THAN 25 PERCENT WHITE AT MOST. I  V/OULDN'T THINK THAT IS  NOT GOING TO BE AT ALL ATTRACTIVE TO WHITE F A M IL IE S . SO ANYONE WITH '7 5  PERCENT BLACK OR MORE W ILL LOSE WHITE ENROLLMENT FAST REGARDLESS OF THE EARLIER DESEGREGATION.



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Q . THANK YOU.THE COURT: ANYTHING FURTHER?REDIRECT EXAMINATIONBY MR. W ILLIAM B:Q . REALLY ONE Q U ESTIO N , YOUR HONOR.DR. C R A IN , WITH RESPECT TO THE ANSWER YOU GAVE ON YOUR D E P O SIT IO N , DO YOU RECALL G IV IN G  TH IS AS THE COMPLETE ANSWER? THE SHORT ANSWER, WE DON'T KNOW.THE COURT: PAGE, P LE A SE .Q . I  AM SO RRY, SAME PAGE, PAGE 5 3 .A . PAGE 5 2 .Q . THE BEGINNING OF IT  WAS ON PAGE 5 2 . YOUR ANSWER I S  ONPAGE 5 3 .A . ALL R IG H T .Q . THE SHORT ANSWER IS  WE DON'T KNOW.THE LONG ANSWER I S ,  I  'HIINK BLACKS HAVE ALWAYS SEEN EDUCATION AS A METHOD FOR BEATING POVERTY, WHICH WAS THEIR BEST B E T . A WHITE H AS, I  T H IN K , MORE MODELS OF NOT TERRIBLY WELL EDUCATED WHITES WOULD HAVE BECOME MORE SUCCESSFUL WITH BLACK S. IT  I S  PRETTY HARD TO FIND ANY BLACKS WHO ARE TERRIBLY SU CCESSFU L ECONOMICALLY DURING THAT IN TERMS OF A PROFESSIONAL B A S IS . ^DO YOU RECALL THAT?A . I  HOPE THERE I S  A COUPLE OF TYPING ERRORS IN THERE,BECAUSE IT  CAME OUT PRETTY UNGRAMATICAL



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I  SORT OF L IK E  THAT ANSWER BETTER THAN THE ONE I  GAVE TODAY, ACTUALLY. MAYBE I  WAS SMARTER TWO WEEKS AGO, OR NOT AS T IR E D .BLACKS HAVE TO RELY ON EDUCATION, BUT, —  BUT THE —  BUT SAYING THAT PEOPLE ARE COMMITTED TO EDUCATION DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY HAVE GOT THE S K IL L S  TO F U L F IL L  THAT. THE FACT THAT IT  IS  L IK E  THE KID THAT SOMEBODY, YOU KNOW, A CH ILD  SOMEBODY INTERVIEWED SA ID  I  AM GOING TO GO TO COLLEGE. I  DON'T CARE IF  I  DON'T F IN IS H  HIGH SCHOOL, I  AM S T IL L  GOING TO GO TO COLLEG E. THE KID I S  DEEPLY COMMITTED TO EDUCATION, BUT HE IS  DOING A TERRIBLE JO B  OF FU LFILLIN G  THAT COMMITMENT.THAT I S  THE PROBLEM WITH SEGREGATION.Q . YOUR HONOR, NO MORE Q U ESTIO N S.THE COURT; THANK YOU, COACH.HELP THE WITNESS DOWN.(WITNESS DOWN.)THE COURT; UNLESS I  HEAR O B JE C T IO N , THE WITNESS IS  EXCUSED. THANK, YOU, S I R .(WITNESS DOWN.)THE COURT; 8 ; 3 0  TOMORROW HORNING. I  HAVE SOME OTHER MATTERS RIGHT NOW. SO NO NEED TO KEEP YOU A L L . TOMORROW I  MUST BE AWAY FROM HERE BY NO LATER THAN 5 ; 2 0 .  SO WE W ILL TRY TO PLAY A L IT T L E  CATCH UP B A L L . I  THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO GET THROUGH WITH I T .  I  S A ID  TWO D A YS, I  HAD IN  THE BACK OF MY M IND. I  HOPE YOU ARE ALMOST THROUGH, BECAUSE IF  YOU ARE



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NOT, YOU ARE GOING TO B E .MR. MINCBERGs I  B E LIE V E  WE ONLY HAVE BETWEEN P L A IN T IF F S  AND BETWEEN P L A IN T IF F S  AND THE SCHOOL BOARD I  B E LIE V E  WE HAVE ONLY THREE MORE W ITNESSES WE INTEND TO C A L L . WE HAD IN  MIND D R. ARTHUR JE F F E R SO N , BUT H IS SCHEDULE HAS BEEN D IF F IC U L T  AND WE THINK H IS  TESTIMONY I S  SOMEWHAT D U P L IC A T IV E , SO WE ELIMINATED THAT W ITN ESS. AS BOTH THE STATE AND YOUR HONOR HAVE BEEN INFORMED WE DO HAVE ONE PROBLEM WITH DEAN PAULEY WHO HAS TO BE IN VANDERBILT TOMORROW.THE COURT: IF  WE ARE S T IL L  IN S E S S IO N . I  HAVE NO O BJECTION  TO YOU PUTTING HIM ON OUT OF ORDER.MR. MINCBERG: THANK YOU.THE COURT: WE HAVE TO MOVE ALONG. I  CANNOT HEAR YOU SATURDAY, I  HAVE OTHER MATTERS THAT W ILL TAKE ALL DAY LONG.MR. MINCBERG: I  B E LIE V E  WE COULD, I  R EA LIZE THERE WOULD BE Q UITE AN IM P O S IT IO N , BUT IF  YOUR HONOR WOULD L IK E  TO HAVE COURT SATURDAY NIGHT OR SUNDAY, I  B E LIE V E  WE CAN GET DEAN PAULEY HER THEN.THE COURT: I  HAVE THE ROBINS MATTER SATURDAY, AND THE SK IN S ARE ON A WINNING STREAK.MR. MINCBERG: I  WOULD L IK E  TO WATCH THE GAME, TOO, YOUR HONOR.THE COURT: I  AM GOING TO WATCH I T .MR. MINCBERG: I F  YOU AR E, I  GUESS I  CAN HAVE IT  ON IN



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THE BACKGROUND.MR. W ILLIA M S: P L A IN T IF F S  ELIMINATED THEIR OTHER P L A IN T IF F  W IT N E SS, AND ONLY ONE FURTHER EXPERT.THE COURT: VERY GOOD. ALL R IG H T .MR. MINCBERG: THANK YO U .THE COURT: 8 : 3 0  TOMORROW HORNING.(ADJOURNED AT 5 : 3 0 . )

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Bradley v. Robb Transcript Volume II

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