Archie v. Alabama Institute for the Deaf and Blind Appendix

    A P P E N D I X

In  t h e

B M bb (Eourt of Appeals
F ob t h e  F ieth C ibotjxt

No. 25889

C hristine A rchie, by her mother and next friend, 
Mrs. Ada Archie, et al.,

Plaintiffs-Appellants,

— against—

T h e  A l a b a m a Institute for t h e 
D eaf a n d B lind, et al.,

D efendants-B esp ondents.

ON APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA 

EASTERN DIVISION

■tfggSR̂



I N D E X

PAGE

Complaint - Filed August 4, 1967.......... ....... . 1

Answer - Filed August 28, 1967................................ 8

"Memorandum Opinion in Lieu of Formal Findings Under
Rule 52" - Filed November 3, 1967...... . 10

Defendants' Plan for Desegregation - Filed December 20,
! 9 6 7 . . .......     ....12

Plaintiffs' Objections to Defendants' Plan - Filed
January 9, 1968. ........... ....................... . 22

HEW Directive Entitled "Compliance with. Requirements of 
Title VI of the civil Rights Act of 1964 by Special 
Education Institutions" - Filed January 19, 1968.........25

Order Overruling Plaintiffs' Objections — Entered
January 23, 1968.......      ......29

Plaintiffs' Motion for Rehearing - Filed January 30, 1968...30
Order Overruling Motion for Rehearing and Approving Plan 

and Injunctive Relief Respecting Same - Entered 
February 21, 1968.......    31

Notice of Appeal - Filed February 5, 1968........... 33

Transcript of Deposition of Mr. E . H . Gentry, President of 
the Institute, taken October 26, 1967 and filed 
November 2, 1967....(D 1 - D 198) 34



IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NOTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA 

-S-etWWN DIVISION

CHRISTINE ARCHIE, by her mother and 
next friend, :ItS. ADA ARCHIE;
MARY VALENTINE, a minor by her mother 
and next friend, MIS. ANNIE VALENTINE 
and BENITA ADAMS, by her legal guardian, 
MRS. CATHERINE GROOM,

Plaintiffs, Civil Action No.

THE ALABAMA INSTITUTE FOR DEAF AND 
BLIND; MR. E. H. GENTRY, The President 
of the Institute; THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES 
OF THE ALABAMA INSTITUTE FOR DEAF AND 
BLIND; MR. ERNEST STRONG, Principal, 
ALABAMA SCHOOL FOR TOE QfiAF? MR.
CARL MONROE, Principal, ALABAMA STATE 
SCHOOL FOR THE BLIND; MRS. CATHERINE 
RISEN, Principa1,'ALABAMA SCHOOL FOP 
THE DEAF and MR. D. Q. SCRUGGS, 
Principal, ALABAMA SCHOOL FOR THE 
BLIND; THE DEPARTMENT OF ADULT 
SERVICES FOR THE DEAF AND BLIND 
and its President, UR. GEORGE 
McFADDEN. KELLER SCHOOL FOR THE 
DEAF AND BLIND, MRS. UARY SNELL, 
Principal

FILED: August 4th, 1967

Defendants

COMPLAINT
1

The jurisdiction of this Court is invoked pursuant to the pro­

visions of Title 20 U.S.G. Sec. 1343 (3) and (4). This is an 

action in Equity, authorized by Title 42 U.S.C. Sec. 1981 and 1983 

to be commenced by any citizen of the United States, or other persona 

within the jurisdiction thereof to redress the deprivation, under 

color ©f statue, ordinance, regulation, custom or usuage of a state, 

of rights, privileges, and immunities secured by the Constitution 

and Laws of the United States. The rights, privileges and immunities



COMPLAINT

sought to be secured by this action are rights, privileges and im­

munities granted by the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses of 

the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution as herein­

after more fully appears.

II

This is a proceeding for an interlocutory permanent injunction against 

the defendants named in Number III below, prohibiting them, their 

successors, superintendents, employees, servants, and any other person 

acting in concert with them from operating or maintaining or other­

wise supporting separate facilities for the dfggf Negro and white
1. +trf ^

children of- the State of

Alabama;

III

Plaintiffs, Chrisfrine— Arohie, age -381? by her mother and next friend,

Jfesrt—Ada~Ac©tefee, I>faTy~Va±ent4«e«j age if', by her mother and next friend,

i f '-JLtc/ TVv-Mgs-,.-Annie Valentina, and Denit'a'A'dams, age by her legal 'guardian,

Mrs;..Cat he r i ne Gr o om are Negro citizens of the United States and of

‘J-'-ima0 tea cAlabama„ /Each is a student enrolled at The Alabama Institute For The
/

Deaf and Blind in Talladega, Alabama. Each has been assigned to the 

school maintained for the Negro deaf on the Sylacaugha Highway.1 They

0 ? - X

bring this action on their own behalf and on behalf of all other d*

and-/o:i-“blifid Negro children
/

unow or may in the future attend the/ Alabama Institute for the Deaf
' o

a«d~Bl-rTidT The members of the class on whose behalf the- action is

- /

2



COMPLAINT

brought are so numerous that joinder of all members is impracticable. 

Defendants have acted.and refused to act on grounds applicable to the

here are common questions of law and fact involved, common

grievances arising out of common wrongs. KThe claims of the named 

plaintiffs are typical of the class and a common Belief is sought for 

each plaintiff and each member of the class. The named plaintiffs
\ r

fairly and adequately protect the interests of the class.

IV

The defendants are: the Alabama Institute for Deaf and Blind; Mr. 

E. H. Gentry, the President of the Institute; the Board of Trustees

of the Alabama Institute for Deaf and Blind; Mr. Ernest Strong, 

Principal, Alabama State School for the Deâ jl? (Negro); Mr. Carl Monroe, 

Principal, Alabama State School for the Blind (Negro); Mrs. Catherine

Risen, Principal, Alabama School for the Deaf (white) and Mr. B. Q . 

Scruggs, Principal, Alabama School for the Blind (white); the Depart­

ment of Adult Services for the Deaf and Blind and its President, Mr. 

George McFadden. The Helen Keller School for the Deaf and Blind and 

its Principal, firs. Mary Snell.

The defendant Institute which, is in turn managed and controlled 

by the defendant Board of Trustees, has control of all real and 

personal property at each of the four school sites, the principals 

of which are also named as defendants. It controls the distribution 

of all funds, has general supervisory power over the affairs of all 

schools, including the power and duty of establishing policies,

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COMPLAINT
procedures, rules and regulations concerning their administration and 

operation. Each principal is responsible for implementing the policies, 

procedures, rules and regulations adopted by the Board of Trustees, 

and controls and supervises all employees at his school.

V

The defendants, acting under the color of authority vested in them 
by the laws of the State of Alabama, have pursued and are pursuing the 

policy, custom, practice and usage of operating the deaf and blind 

schools of Alabama on a racially segregated basis.

Specifically:

(a) The racially segregated schools came into existence 
pursuant to the requirements of State law and are 
presently continued, perpetuated and maintained by 
the defendants as a matter of state law, policy, 
custom and usage;

(b) Although all deaf and blind children who are residents
of the State of Alabama are permitted to enroll at the In- 
etitue, they are assigned by race to either of four 
separate school plants, where they eat, sleep and 
attend classes during the entire school year, as follows:

(1) Only Negro children are assigned to the Alabama 
State School for the deaf located on the 
Sylacaugha Highway in Talladega, Alabama.

(2) Only white children are assigned to the Alabama 
school for the deaf located at Cherry Street and 
South Street East, Talladega, Alabama„

(3) Only Negro children are assigned to the Alabama 
State School for the Blind located at Talladega, 
Alabama.

(4) Only white children are assigned to the 
Alabama School for the Blind located at 
Talladega, Alabama.

(c) The institute maintains on the campus of the school 
for the white deaf (Alabama School for the Deaf), 
the Helen Keller School for white children who are 
both deaf and blind. No such school is maintained 
for Negro children having the same affliction.

(d) That the defendants operate and maintain separate 
facilities, workshops, schools, and medical facilities 
for the adult deaf and blind and plaintiffs aver on



COMPLAINT

information and belief that the defendants employ and 
train only white persons in white adult facilities and 
only Negro persons in Negro adult facilities.

IV

Plaintiffs aver upon information and belief that the defendants 

have refused and are continuing to refuse to employ Negroes as 

teachers of academic and vocational subjects on the same basis as 

whites. Only white teachers are assigned to the schools for the 

white deaf and the white blind. During the 1966-67 school year 

the defendants employed only six Negro teachers and all were assigned 

to the school for the Negro deaf.

VII

Upon information and belief, plaintiffs aver that the quality and 

quantity of available treatment, programs and facilities (herein­

after specified) at the schools maintained for the white deaf and 

the white blind are vastly superior to those available at the Negro 

schools and that white children in those schools receive numerous 

other benefits not provided Negro children.

VIII

The maintenance by the defendants of separate, racially segre­

gated facilities deprives plaintiffs and the members of the class 

they represent of their rights to equal treatment and equal utili­

zation of publicly owned facilities in violation of the Equal Pro­

tection and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. 

Plaintiffs are irreparably injured by defendants’ conduct and seek

-5-



COMPLAINT

injunctive relief as it is their only means of securing adequate re­

lief . Plaintiffs have no plain or adequate remedy at law to redress 

these wrongs and will continue to suffer irreparable injury until 

such time as defendants are enjoined from continuing to maintain 

segregated and unequal facilities.

WHEREFORE, plaintiffs pray:

(1) That this Court, in view of the short time remaining 

before the start of the 1967-68 school year advance this cause upon 

the docket, order a speedy hearing, and after said hearing enter a 

decree enjoining defendants, their agents, employees, successors in 

office and all persons in active concert and participation with them 

from:

(a) Assigning deaf and blind students to separate schools 

on the basis of race;

(b) Hiring and assigning teachers, principals, housemothers 

custodians and other professional and service school personnel to 

individual schools on the basis of race.

(c) Instituting, approving, maintaining and continuing any 

policies or programs having the design or effect of maintaining or 

supporting racial segregation in the defendants' schools.

(d) Continuing to discriminate against plaintiffs and 

other deaf and blind Negro children with regard to:

(a) Pupil expenditures

(b) Classroom facilities and teaching materials

- 6-



COMPLAINT

(c ) Dormitories and furnishings

(d) Curriculum

Ce) Library facilities

(f) Transportation

(g) Salaries of teachers and other professional and 
service employees

(h) Vocational, rehabilitative and industrial training

(i) Recreations 1 facilities and programs

(j) All other benefits and services

(2) That defendants be directed to reassign, by the start of 

the 1967-68 school year, all deaf and blind children, now, or to be, 

enrolled in the future, in such manner that the racial proportion

at each of the four school sites will approximate the racial pro­

portion of all students then enrolled at the institute.

(3) That this Court will allow them their costs, reasonable 

attorneys' fees and such other, additional or alternative relief as 

may appear to the Court to be equitable and just.

Respectfully submitted,

DZMETRIUS~Cj NEWTON 
Masonic Temple Building 
AOS North 17th Street 
Birmingham, Alabama

JACK GREENBERG 
FRANKLIN E. WHITE 
10 Columbus Circle 
New York, New York 10019

Attorneys for Plaintiffs

-7-



IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE 
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA 

EASTERN DIVISION

CHRISTINE ARCHIE, by bar )
mother and nert friend, MRS.
ADA ARCHIE? MARY VALENTINE, a ) 
minor by bar mother and next 
friend, MRS. ANNIE VALENTINE ) 
end BBHITA ADAMS, by her legal 
guardian, MRS. CATHERINE eeOOM,)

PLAINTIFFS )
VS. )
TIE ALABAMA INSTITUTE FOR )
DEAF AND BLIND; MR. E. H.
GENTRY, The President of the )
Institute? THE BOARD OF 
TRUSTEES OF THE ALABAMA )
INSTITUTE FOR DEAF AND BLIND;
MR. ERNEST STRONG, Principal, ) 
ALABAMA STATE SCHOOL FOR THE 
DEAF: MR. CARL MONROE, Princi- ) 
pal, ALABAMA STATS SCHOOL FOR 
THE BLIND; MRS. CATHERINE )
RISEN, Principal, ALABAMA 
SCHOOL FOR THE DEAF and MR. )
B, Q. SCRUGGS, Principal, ALA­
BAMA SCHOOL FOR THE BLIND? THE ) 
DEPARTMENT OF ADULT SERVICES 
FOR THE DEKF AND BLIND and its ) 
President, MR. GEORGE McFADDEN. 
KELLER SCHOOL FOR THE DEAF AND ) 
BLIND, MRS. MARY SHELL, Prin­
cipal, )

CIVIL ACTION
NO. 17-440

FILED: AUGUST 28, 1967

DEFENDANTS )

A N S W  E R

Coma now the defendants and for answer to the bill 
of complaint filed in the above-styled cause, say as 
follows:

1. The complaint fails to state a cause or action 
against the defendants for which relief can be granted.

8



ANSWER

2. Por further answer to ths complaint hereto­
fore filed in this cause, the defendants admit that 

Christine Archie, age thirteen, Mary Valentine, age 
twelve, and Benita Adams, age eight, are students at the 
Alabama Institute for the Deaf and Blind, and the defen­
dants further admit the averments set out in Paragraph 

XV o f the complaint, wherein the defendants are listed? 
but the defendants deny every other allegation or aver­
ment contained in the complaint heretofore filed in this 
causa.

; !
„ill .>j. U JMacDONALD GALLION
ATTORNEY GENERAL

)
' /■■</" / K

L L I L iL  ! . . LJROBERT P. BRADLEY
ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL

f— - - ».------------JMJl--L. ■PHILIP iy. SMITH
SPECIAL ASSISTANT ATTORNEY 

GENERAL
ATTORNEYS FOR DEFENDANTS

CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I hereby certify that I have mailed, properly 

stamped and addressed, a copy of the foregoing Answer to 
Bon. Demetrius C. Newton, Attorney nor Plaintiffs, Masonic 
Temple Building, 4)8 North 17th streat, Birmingham, Ala­
bama on this 25th day of August. 1167

/ ' , . J  >

t t ■ / -b ■- : '
ROBERT P. BRADLEY
ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL /

9



IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT NOR THE NORTHERN 
DISTRICT OF ALABAMA, EASTERN DIVISION

CHRISTINE ARCHIE; et als, 
Plaintiffs

vs.

ALABAMA INSTITUTE FOR THE 
DEAF AND BLIND; et als,

Defendants

)
) CIVIL ACTION
)
) No. 6 7-IU4.O
] FILED IN CIAW'S OFFICE
j NORTHERN OISTRICI OE ALABAMA

)
j IMOV d -  1967
| W ILLIAM E. DAVIS
) CLFRK. U. S. DISTRICT COURI

BV........................ .............Deputy Clerk
MEMORANDUM OPINION IN LIEU CF FORMAL FINDINGS UNDER RULE 52

This is an action under Title lj.2, TJSC, Sections 1981 

and 1983 to redress the alleged deprivation of rights, 
privileges and immunities secured by the Constitution and 
Laws of the United States. This Court has jurisdiction of 
this action. Plaintiff's seek an interlocutory and 
permanent injunction enjoining the defendants, their 
successors and agents and those acting in concert with 
them from operating or maintaining or otherwise supporting 
separate facilities for the deaf Negro and White children 
or for the blind Negro and White children of the State of 
Alabama. This action is filed as a class action.

The Alabama Institute for Deaf and Blind is managed 
and controlled by the defendant Board of Trustees and their 
agents. Said Trustees control the distribution of all funds 
and have general supervisory power over the affairs of all 
the schools maintained by said Institute and situated in 
Talladega County, Alabama.

The parties have submitted the case upon the merits 
upon the deposition of the defendant E.H. Gentry, who is

10



MEMORANDUM OPINION IN LIEU OP 
FINDINGS UNDER RULE 52

the President of the defendant Institute. The Court finds 
from the deposition of said defendant that the Institute is 
a public institution of the State of Alabama and is owned, 
maintained and supported by the State of Alabama and receives 
both State and Federal money for its operation and maintenance. 
The Federal funds are allocated through the State Department 
of Education.

That the defendants' acting under the color of authority 
vested in them by the laws of the State of Alabama have 
pursued and are pursuing a policy, custom, practice and 
usage of operating said Institute and the Schools composing 
same upon a racially segregated basis. Certain of the 
facilities are integrated, but generally the facilities are 
segregated. There is discrimination in the various areas 
of the operation of said Institute and the Said S0hools 
based upon race. All such discrimination contravenes the 
Laws and the Constitution of the United States.

It is, Therefore, ORDERED, ADJUDGED and DECREED that not
later than the 20th of December, 1967, the defendants' will
submit to this Court a plan for the desegregation of said
Institute and the Schools composing same, their cla.sses,
instructional staff and all the facilities, programs, benefits
and services. The precise injunctive relief other than the
requirement of the submission of the plan herein referred
to will be withheld pending the submission and consideration
of said plan. The defendants', their servants, agents and

mandatorilyemployees be and they are hereby enjoined respecting the 
filing of the plan in the time herein provided.

Done and Ordered, this the 3rd day of November, 1967.

United States District Judge

11



IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA 

EASTERN DIVISION

CHRISTINE ARCHIE, by her mother and 
next friend, MRS. ADA ARCHIE; MARY 
VALENTINE, a minor by her mother and 
next friend, MRS. ANNIE VALENTINE; 
and BENITA ADAMS, by her legal guardian, 
MRS. CATHERINE GROOM,

Plaintiffs
vs. CIVIL ACTION

THE ALABAMA INSTITUTE FOR DEAF AND BLIND; NO. 67-440
MR. E . H. GENTRY, The President of the ;
Institute; THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF THE 
ALABAMA INSTITUTE FOR DEAF AND BLIND; :
MR. ERNEST STRONG, Principal, ALABAMA STATE
SCHOOL FOR THE DEAF; MR. CARL MONROE, : FILED: December 20, 1967
Principal, ALABAMA STATE SCHOOL FOR THE 
BLIND; MRS. CATHERINE RISEN, Principal, :
ALABAMA SCHOOL FOR THE DEAF and MR. B. Q.
SCRUGGS, Principal, ALABAMA SCHOOL FOR THE :
BLIND; THE DEPARTMENT OF ACULT SERVICES 
FOR THE DEAF AND BLIND and its President, :
MR. GEORGE McFADDEN; KELLER SCHOOL FOR THE 
DEAF AND BLIND, MRS. MARY SNELL, Principal,:

DEFENDANTS :

P L A N

Now come the defendants in the above entitled cause, and, as 
required by the order of this court dated November 3, 1967, submit 
the following plan for the desegregation of the Alabama Institute 
for Deaf and Blind located at Talladega, Alabama;

1. SCHOOLS FOR THE BLIND:
All students in the schools as presently organized follow 

a curriculum through high school comparable to that of the 
public schools in the State. Those who complete the required

12 -



PLAN FOR DESEGREGATION

academic work are awarded high school diplomas. There will 
be nine graduates at the Alabama School for the Blind who 
will receive diplomas in May, 1968. Five graduates will 
receive diplomas at the Alabama State School for the Blind.

There are a number of students who were over age at 
the time of enrollment and, for other reasons, are not able 
to complete the regular school program. Many of these 
students are slow learners which, coupled with their handi­
cap, makes it difficult for them to compete. These students 
will be referred to the Alabama Vocational Rehabilitation 
agency for consideration and approval to be enrolled in the 
New Special Technical Trade School. This special school 
will be completed and ready for operation not later than 
April 1, 1968. It is recommended, however, that the transfer 
of students be deferred until the end of the present school 
year in May, 1968. There will be a minimum of ten and 
possibly twelve students at the Alabama School for the Blind 
involved in this transfer. There will be six students at 
the Alabama State School for the Blind to be transferred.

Appropriate tests and other evaluative criteria will 

be applied to 26 students in Junior and Senior High School 
grades at the Alabama State School for the Blind. At the 

end of this school year these students will be placed at 
their appropriate grade level at the Alabama School for the 
Blind. Facilities will be adequate for this move since there 
will possibly be nine graduates from the Alabama School for 
the Blind, and ten or twelve students transferred to the 
new technical trade school.

13



PLAN FOR DESEGREGATION

The present facilities at the Alabama State School 
for the Blind will be used for dual purposes: (A)
Classes for ungraded children of both races. Reports made 
to the Board of Trustees will bear out that there are 
pupils in both schools for the blind who need to be placed 
in special or ungraded classes in order to give them more 
experience than is possible in the regular classes. There 
is one special class now at the Alabama School for the Blind. 
Between the two schools there will be enough pupils for 
three or four classes with an age spread of not more than 
three years for each class. Some have additional physical 
impairments, while others are mentally retarded. There is 
a need for additional testing programs in evaluating children 
to be placed in these special classes. The space saved in 
combining the classroom and activity areas will be used for 
these classes. Most of the parents will insist upon their 
children remaining in regular classes. It will require a 

very careful screening and testing program to support this 
plan in order to give the parents a freedom of choice in 
acceptance of this, or finding another place for their 
severely retarded blind children. (B) Classes for all 
children in both schools for the blind in grades one through 
three. Parents will be given freedom of choice in the 
placement of the remaining school students not covered in 
other sections of the plan outlined above.

2. SCHOOLS FOR THE DEAF:
The Schools for the Deaf are presently organized to 

follow a curriculum classified as elementary, intermediate 
and advanced departments. They are not graded in the same

14



PLAN FOR DESEGREGATION

manner corresponding to grades in public schools of the 

State. Those who complete the required academic and 
vocational work are awarded high school diplomas, 
vocational diplomas or vocational certificates. There 
will be 19 graduates at the Alabama School for the Deaf 
this year. The Alabama State School for the Deaf will 
not have any graduates at that time.

Students in both deaf schools who should continue 

in the regular school program until graduation will be 
placed together in classes in the upper intermediate and 
advanced departments. This will result in all students 
of both schools being scheduled in all preparatory and 
advanced vocational classes under the same policy now in 
effect in scheduling intermediate and advanced students 
at the Alabama School for the Deaf. This will likely 
result in the transfer of the teacher-unit in vocational 
home economics at the Alabama State School for the Deaf 
to the Alabama School for the Deaf as all girls eligible 
for home economics at the State School for Deaf would 
have already been transferred to the other school.

As in the case of the Schools for the Blind, there 
are a number of students in both schools for the deaf who 
are over age and, for other reasons, are not able to 
complete the regular school program. Some of them are 

slow learners which, coupled with their loss of hearing, 
makes it necessary for us to provide special classes for 
a considerable number in both schools. Special classes 
for ungraded children, including special classes for hard 
of hearing and those with other special problems who need 
special services, will be provided at the Alabama State 
School for the Deaf.

15



PLAN FOR DESEGREGATION

Over age students who have made slow progress and 
could not possibly complete academic requirements for 
graduation with a diploma will be referred to the Alabama 
Vocational Rehabilitation agency for consideration and 
approval to be enrolled in the New Special Technical 
Trade School. It is recommended that transfer of these 
students be deferred until the end of the present school 
year.

A building to house a new beginner's department is 
now under construction. All children considered for en­
rollment in September of next year will be brought in for 
one week of preschool institute for the parents and 
children after the close of schools in May. Children of 
both races who are not ready for classification in tie 
regular school program will be given one year of prepara­
tory training for regular school in this new facility. 
Construction of the new building should be completed on 
or by June 1 and be ready for use at the opening of schools 

in September 1968.
In addition to the above, this plan contemplates that 

parents will be given a freedom of choice in the placement 

of pupils not provided for in the plan as outlined above.
It is evident that it would not be possible to take care of 
any sizeable number of pupils who are making normal progress 
where they are, but wish to transfer to another school.

In the past no new pupils have enrolled during a 
school year because it takes time, particularly for new 
deaf pupils, to adjust to a new school situation and it 
slows down learning for pupils who are already adjusted.
From experience, we have found that it is easier for all

16 -



PLAN FOR DESEGREGATION

children to adjust together at the beginning of a new 

school year rather than trying to orient and adjust new 
ones during a school year. The Board of Trustees feel 
that for the sake of the children it would be advisable 

to make all transfers to other schools at the beginning 
of the fall term of school in 1968. This is based upon 
a careful study made by the staff concerned with the 
administration of all the schools.

In addition, if the plan is accepted by the Court, 
it will be necessary for the administration to employ a 
clinical psychologist such as Dr. Herbert Eber and 
Associates of Birmingham who have had a great deal of 
experience in administering all types of tests (in addition 
to those qualified to give tests in the schools) including 
mental ability and performance tests in order to have 
complete support in dealing with parents for the placement 
of pupils to carry out the plan.

3• TEACHER PLACEMENT:
When vacancies occur teachers will be employed and 

assigned, based upon qualifications for the job and not 
on race. There will be no discrimination practiced in 

the employment and placement of qualified teachers.

4. DEPARTMENT OF ADULT DEAF AND BLIND:
This department has been and is presently operating 

on a basis of complete desegregation. The department 
has been checked by the Central and Regional Offices of 
the Federal Vocational Rehabilitation Service Administra­
tion in the Department of Health, Education and Welfare 
and has met all requirements for compliance. As will be 
noted in other sections of this plan, all transferring 
of students to the New Special Technical Trade School from 
all the schools will be made for students who qualify.

17



PLAN FOR DESEGREGATION

5. HOSPITAL - HEARING AND SPEECH CENTER:
These facilities are used by all the schools and are 

completely desegregated.

6 . THE DEAF-BLIND DEPARTMENT:
In the original complaint of the plaintiffs much is 

said about the Deaf-Blind Department of the Institute.
In taking depositions the attorneys representing the 
plaintiffs pursued this matter at length. The Board of 
Trustees feel that the Court is entitled to information 
that may not be clear in the reports given.

In the first place, the Deaf-Blind Department is not 
a separate school. In April 1955, the American Foundation 

for the Bliid in New York City asked Dr. John E. Bryan, then 
President of the Alabama Institute for the Deaf and Blind, 
to accept a Negro deaf-blind girl at the State School for 
the Deaf. This marked the beginning of the establishment of 
the regional department for deaf-blind children. In 
September 1955, a building on the campus of the Alabama 
School for the Blind was made available and a department 
for deaf-blind children opened. Six pupils were enrolled 
from four states. These children were all accepted upon 
the recommednation of the American Foundation for the Blind. 
Tuition and maintenance were paid by the home states.

The department grew and later The Board of Trustees 
purchased additional land with three frame houses on it.
The Deaf-Blind Department moved into these houses.

Through the years the department has continued to grow. 
The present modern building now used was made possible by 
an act of the Legislature appropriating $90,000.00 of 
interest accumulated from bonds for public construction.

18



PLAN FOR DESEGREGATION

in 1963 the department moved into the present modern 

building, valued at more than $150,000.00 constructed on a 
suitable site where the old frame buildings were located.
The legislature requested Miss Helen Keller's permission 
to name this building in her honor. This request was 
granted and the present building is known as the "Helen 
Keller Cottage."

There has never been any segregation practiced in the 
operation of this department. We have some students of 
other nationalities; namely, Mexican, Cajun, and Negro 
children presently enrolled. One of the Negro children is 
from Mississippi and the other two from Alabama. These are 
the last three children accepted and, since living facilities 
were already overcrowded, they were placed in a dormitory 
at the Alabama State School for the Deaf; not because of 
race, but because of space available.

The Board of Trustees feel that further explanation 
should also be made; namely, that the last child taken was 
from Birmingham and after admission it was discovered that 
the child was not toilet trained. It has been necessary to 
employ additional help especially to take care of this child 
and the other two who are now in the dormitory at the Alabama 
State School for the Deaf. Otherwise, it would not have been 
possible for us to accept these three children.

Furthermore, for the record, there is no legal require­
ment on the part of the Board of Trustees to support this 
department which is financed by funds provided by the twelve 

states represented in the enrollment. The administration 
at the Institute has given a lot of time and the Institute 
has provided the facilities; however, no State funds

19



PLAN FOR DESGREGATION

appropriated to the schools are used by this department.

The Board feels that if a demand is made by the Court to 

operate this facility differently it would be to the best 

interest of the Institute to close the department at the end 
of this school year, leaving no opportunity for these 
children's education. The Court may be interested to know 
that there is one other school that has a sizeable number of 
deaf-blind children; namely, Perkins Institute at Watertown 
near Boston. This is a private school and receives more 

support from other states than we do in operating the department 
in Alabama.

It is difficult for the Board of Trustees to feel that 
the Court would make a ruling that would be impractical to 
the extent that the Board would have to close the door to the 
wonderful work that is being carried out in this facility which 
has aided so many children who have a major loss in both hearing 
and vision.

This 20th day of December 1967.

Respectfully submitted,

MacDONALD CALLION 
ATTORNEY GENERAL

ROBERT P. BRADLEY 
ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL

PHILIP H. SMITH 
SPECIAL ASSISTANT ATTORNEY 

GENERAL
ATTORNEYS FOR DEFENDANTS

20



CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE

I hereby certify that I have mailed, properly stamped 

and addressed, a copy of the foregoing Plan to Hon. Demetrius 
C. Newton, Attorney for Plaintiffs, Masonic Temple Building, 
408 North 17th Street, Birmingham, Alabama on this 20th day 
of December 1967.

ROBERT P. BRADLEY 
ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL

21



IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA 

EASTERN DIVISION

CHRISTINE ARCHIE, by her mother : 
and next friend, Mrs. Ada Archie 
et al. , :

Plaintiffs

vs.

THE ALABAMA INSTITUTE FOR DEAF 
AND BLIND, et al.,

Defendants

CIVIL ACTION 
NO. 67-440

Filed: January 9, 1968

PLAINTIFF 1S OBJECTIONS TO DEFENDANTS 1 
PLAN FOR DESEGREGATION

1. Defendants plan does not clearly state how the defendants 

plan to desegregate children in grades four (4) through six (6)
in the schools for the blind and plaintiffs object to a freedom 

of choice plan for these schools.
2. Defendants plan is not clear as to whether students will 

be housed together, and attend class together, in each of these 

schools.
3. Plaintiffs objects to defendants plan in the ungraded 

classes in classes one (1) through three (3), and plans not clear 
as to whether children will attend class together and will be 

housed together in these grades.
4. Plaintiffs object to the plan of freedom of choice on 

grades four (4) through five (5) (see HEW memorandum dated June 6 , 

1966).

22



PLAINTIFF'S OBJECTIONS TO DEFENDANTS 
PLAN FOR DESEGREGATION

SCHOOLS FOR THE DEAF

1. Plaintiffs list the same objections as in the school 

for the Blind.
2. The plan is not clear as to whether children in the 

upper intermediate and advanced departments will be assigned 
to living quarters on a non-racial basis.

3. Whether children in ungraded and those in the beginners 
department will be housed together in the proposed new building 

on a proposed non-racial basis.
4. The plan is not clear and plaintiffs object to the lower 

intermediate and elementary grades being assigned on a freedom of 

choice basis.
5. Plaintiffs object to older and slow learners from both 

the blind and deaf schools from being transferred to the Alabama 
Vocational Rehabilitation Agency without a clear showing that 
racial discrimination will be avoided.

6 . Paragraph one (1) on page 7 on the plan is totally unclear 

and plaintiffs interpose an objection.
7. Plaintiffs object to the failure of the defendants to state 

in it's plan that the Helen Keller School will be operated on a 
non-racial basis as far as housing and education is concerned.

DEMETRIUS C. NEWTON
408 North 17th Street 
Birmingham, Alabama 35203

FRANKLIN E. WHITE 
JACK GREENBERG

10 Columbus Circle 
New York, New York 10019

These objections having been presented to me and the same is 
hereby continued for hearing on the 19th day of January, 1968 at 1:30

P.M.

U.S. DISTRICT JUDGE
23



CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE

I certify that I have mailed a copy of the foregoing objection 
to the defendants desegregation plan to the Honorable Robert P. 
Bradley, Assistant Attorney General, at his office at the State 
Office Building, Montgomery, Alabama, by United States mail 
postage prepaid this 9th day of January, 1968.

DEMETRIUS C. NEWTON



DEPARTM ENT O F HEALTH, EDUCATION, AND W ELFA R E  
OFFICE OF EDUCATION

W A S H IN G T O N . D  C . *0208

MEMORAi'i
June 6, 1966

TO

FROM
Chief State School Officers
Harold Howe II b }  •
U.S. Commissioner of Education

Filed: January 19, 1968

SUBJECT: Compliance with Requirements of Title VI of the Civil Rights 
Act of 196h by Special Education Institutions

This memorandum is designed to explain the applicability to special 
education institutions of the compliance requirements of the HEW Regu­
lation (U5 CFR 80) issued to carry out the purpose of Title VI of the 
Civil Rights Act of 196b.

Special education institutions generally include, but are not limited 
to, institutions for the blind, deaf, delinquent, mentally 
retarded and other handicapped children and special schools for voca­
tional training, such as area vocational schools.

Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 196h requires the absence of dis­
crimination against persons on the ground of race, color, or national 
origin as a condition for the receipt of Federal financial assistance. 
Section 601 of the Act states:

"No person m  the United States shall, on the ground 
of race, color, or national origin, be excluded from 
participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be 
subjected to discrimination under any program or 
activity receiving Federal, financial assistance."

Section 602 of the Act directs each department which extends Federal 
assistance to issue regulations to carry out the provisions of Section 
601.

"Each Federal department and agency which is empowered 
to extend Federal financial assistance to any program 
or activity, by way of grant, loan, or contract other 
than a contract of insurance or guaranty, is autho­
rized and directed to effectuate the provisions of 
Section 601 with respect to such program or activity 
by issuing rules, regulations, or orders of general 
applicability which shall be consistent with achieve­
ment of the objectives of the statute authorizing the

25



COMPLIANCE WITH REQUIREMENTS OP TITLE VI

financial distance in connection with which the 
act3 on is taken. No such rule* regulation, or 
order shall become effective unless and until 
approved by the President . . . "

Under the HEW Title VI Regulation recipients of Federal assistance are 
required to submit an assurance that their programs will be conducted 
without discrimination based on race. Applicants can normally qualify 
for Federal financial assistance only if all racial discrimination in 
their programs is eliminated. This provision generally applies to 
special education institutions. For those special education institutions 
at the elementary or secondary level where segregation has not yet been 
completely eliminated because of unavoidable delay due to specific 
obstacles, application may be made in the manner described below to 
permit the institution to participate in federally assisted education 
programs while steps to remove the remaining segregation are being 
carried out.

The assignment of children to or within special education institutions 
on the basis of a "free choice" made by the child or his parent is not 
acceptable as an alternative to desegregating these institutions. The 
"free choice" and other provisions cf the Revised Statement of Policies 
for School Desegregation Plans Under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act 
of I96U (The Guidelines) are generally applicable only to plans for the 
desegregation of local elementary and secondary school systems.’1 Appli­
cations of special education institutions to participate in Federal 
programs, while they complete their desegregation, will be considered 
and accepted on the basis of the provisions set forth below, rather' 
than the Guidelines.

In order to be certified eligible for Federal financial assistance for 
programs and activities supported by the Department of Health, Education, 
and Welfare, special education institutions should submit to the 
U.S. Commissioner of Education, through their appropriate State Education 
Agency, the assurance or other information described below, as is appro­
priate to their circumstances.

1. Where there have not been separate facilities on the basis of race, 
color, or national origin, and no separation or other discrimination 
on such a basis within the facilities, the filing of an acceptable 
Form Uhl will provide an appropriate assurance of compliance,

2. Where separate facilities have been provided on the basis of race, 
color, or national origin, the separate facilities must be eliminated 
in order for the school to participate in federally assisted programs,
(a) Where separate facilities have been eliminated, and there 

is no separate treatment on the basis of race, color, or 
national origin within facilities, the institution should 
report to the U.S. Commissioner of Education in specific

26



COMPLIANCE WITH REQUIREMENTS OF TITLE VI
terms what steps have been taken to accomplish thi* 
objective. The report describing these actions should 
include (but not be confined to) action* taken in the 
following broad categories:

1) Pupil assignment, including information about pupil 
distribution by race, and/or other numerically sig­
nificant minorities, by course, by major school 
division and/or category (e.g., elementary, secondary, 
vocational; blind, deaf, retarded, delinquent, etc.), 
and for each operating unit (school building or other 
significant unit), as of the fall term, 1963 (or 
winter, I96U) and the last school term for which such 
information is available.

2) Residential assignment and accommodations, including 
information by race, by residential unit (e.g., dor­
mitory, cottage, etc.) and relevant characteristic of 
resident (e.g., deaf, blind, etc.) as of the fall of 
I963 (or winter, I96U) and the last school term for 
which such information is available.

3) Faculty and staff desegregation, including information 
about faculty distribution by race, and/or other 
numerically significant minorities, by course, major 
job categories, and for each operating unit, as of the 
fall term, 1963 (or winter, I96U) and the last school 
term for which such information is available.

U) Access to and participation in school activities, ser­
vices, etc.--curricular and extra-curricular.

5) Communication of desegregation actions to pupils and 
parents, and the general public.

Where these actions have completely eliminated the elements 
of segregation, discrimination, and arbitrary exclusion, 
the institution should file a Form Uhl in addition to the 
above report.

(b) Where separate facilities have not been eliminated or the 
desegregation process has not been completed, the institu­
tion should report to the U.S. Commissioner of Education 
what steps have been taken, and/or will be taken, and give 
an estimate of the expected completion dates of these 
actions to eliminate segregation and otherwise comply with 
Title VI so that the institution can become eligible for 
Federal assistance. If there are specific obstacles to 
full compliance which are completely unavoidable and which 
in no way indicate any inclination to avoid or delay the

2 7 -



COMPLIANCE WITH REQUIREMENTS OF TITLE VI

desegregation of the school, application nay be made to 
the U.S. Commissioner of Education to permit the institu­
tion to participate in federally assisted education progr 
while the steps are being carried out.

28



IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN
DISTRICT OF ALABAMA, EASTERN DIVISION

CHRISTINE ARCHIE, by her : 
mother and next friend,
Mrs, Ada Archie; et al. , ;

CIVIL ACTION
Plaintiffs : NO. 67-440

vs. :

THE ALABAMA INSTITUTE FOR : Filed: January 23, 1968
DEAF AND BLIND; et al.,

De fendants

O R D E R

This matter came on for hearing on the regular motion docket 

on January 19, 1968, upon the plaintiffs' objections to 
defendants’ plan for desegregation. After hearing oral argument 

thereon and upon due consideration thereof, the Court is of the 
opinion that the plaintiffs' objections are due to be overruled.

It is, therefore, ORDERED, ADJUDGED and DECREED that the 
plaintiffs' objeftions to defendants' plan for desegregation be 
and the same are hereby overruled.

Done and Ordered, this the 22nd day of January, 1968.

_____ H. H. GROOMS___________
United States District Judge

29



IS  THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN 

DISTRICT OF ALABAMA EASTERN DIVISION

Ch r is t in e  arc;era, n r  her mother *
AGO NEXT FRIEND, MRS. ADA ARCHIE, a t  a l

- *

PLAINTIFFS

VS. '
*  CIVIL ACTION NO. 67-UkO

THE ALABAMA INSTITUTE FOR DEAF AND BLIND, 
a t  a l  *

DEFENDANTS RID !f:
MORTHtHK '''■

M O l i M  FO a cif.i;k u.

C a r r e  the p l a i n t i f f s  by and through t h e i r  A tto rn ey o f  raoord, D ie,etriu s  

C . Newton and woven t h i s  Honorable Court fo r  a reh earin g on p l a i n t i f f 3 o b je o tio  

t o  defen dan ts p la n .

" R e s p e c tfu lly  subm itted,

eoatrius C. Newton, Attorney 
FOR PLAINTIFFS

T h is motion h avin g been p resen ted  to  me and-th e -con tent tr-noted the same i a -

____ .1 /* . s]
continued ~for“hx}uriii; u n t i l -  xV>___________

I: . H. ur ooins

1 - U*. -J-.il>., . J; 111 JUiAib

UKHl'II 1CAlb Cl- i’ERVIOm

I c e r t i f y  t h a t  I have m ailed  a copy o f  th e  t o r e g o i ,  g motion t o  th e  
A s s i s t a n t  - . t t y .  General

Honorable Robert P. Brudley/at his office State Office Building,Montgomery,

Alabama by United States Kail postage pre paid this 29th day of January,1968



IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN
DISTRICT OF ALABAMA, EASTERN DIVISION

CHRISTINE ARCHIE, by her )
mother and next friend, Mrs. ) CIVIL ACTION
Ada Archie; et al., )

)
)
)
)

Plaintiffs NO. 67-440

vs. mro ;h clf/t i) OIoTKk:’ r*
THE ALABAMA INSTITUTE FOR )
DEAF AND BLIND; et al., )

) • Ll> . •,
Defendants ) WILL i/,.VI L 

clck-l u. s . Disrr.pc 
Cy.....................Deputy C i ■ k

ORDER OVERRULING MOTION FOR REHEAR­
ING AND APPROVING PLAN AND 
INJUNCTIVE RELIEF RESPECTING SAME

The plaintiffs have filed a motion for reconsideration of 

the order entered herein on January 22, 1968, overruling their 

objections to the plan for the desegregation of the facilities of 
the Alabama Institute for Deaf and Blind. The Court is of the 
opinion that the motion for rehearing should be end the same is 

hereby overruled, and that the plan filed herein on December 20,

1967, be and the same is hereby approved.

The defendants, The Alabama Institute for Deaf and Blind;

Mr. E. H. Gentry, the president of the Institute; The Board of 
Trustees of the Alabama Institute for Deaf and Blind; Mr. Ernest 

Strong, principal, Alabama State School for the Deaf; Mr. Carl 

Monroe, principal, Alabama State School for the Blind; Mrs. Catherine 

Risen, principal, Alabama School for the Deaf and Mr. £>. Q. Scruggs, 
principal, Alabama School for the Blind; The Department of Adult 
Services for the Deaf and Blind and its president, Mr. George 
KcFadden; Keller School for the Deaf and Blind, Mrs. Mary Snell, 
principal, their servants, agents end employees and all parties 

acting in concert with then, be and they are hereby mandatorily

- 31



ORDER OVERRULING MOTION FOR REHEARING AND 
APPROVING PLAN AND INJUNCTIVE RELIEF 
RESPECTING SAME

enjoined to put into force and to carry out the plan of desegre­
gation filed herein on December 20, 1967. The other relief 
sought by the plaintiffs herein be and the same is hereby denied.

The Court will retain jurisdiction of this action in order 
to effectuate the plan and the decree herein approving the same.

So ORDERED, this the 20th day of February, 1968.

United States District Judge

32



i k  Tint tm rr iD  s t a t s s  d i s t r i c t  c o u r t  t o r  tide

n o r t h e r n  D i a n a c r  o r  Al a b a m a  i a s t s r /  d i v i k t o h

CSRISEDiS ARCHIE, BY HSR MOTHER 
AND NEXT FRIEND, MRS. ADA ARCHIE,

*

e t  a l #

C IV IL  ACTION NO.
:jT-AINTIFFS *

V S . *

( j ' l - k k O

TiiEi . .dAl'AMA INSTITUTE FOR DEAF *

AND BU N D , e t  a l
*

DEFENDANTS
#

*

#

N O T I C E  O F  A P P E A L

n o t ic e  it. i» r e b y  g iv e n  t h a t  CHRISTINE ARCHIE, b y  h e r  m other and 

n e x t  f r i e n d ,  M rs. Ada A r c h ie ,  One O f th e  p l a i n t i f f s  h e r e in , n ereb y a p p e a ls  

t o  th e  U n ited  S t a t e s  C o u rt o f  A p p e als  f o r  th e  F i f t h  C i r c u i t  from an o rd a r  

o f  s a id  U n ited  S t a t e s  D i s t r i c t  Court, d e n y in g  th e  p r a y e r  o f  p l a i n t i f f s  f o r  

a re n e a r in g  on p l a i n t i f f s  O b je c tio n  t o  d e fe n d a n ts  p la n .  S a id  o rd e r  fr o o  

th e  D i s t r i c t  C o u rt v a s  d a te d  Jan u ary 2 9 , 19*68.

DATED: F e b ru ary 5 , I 966

k o 6  .forth  1 7 t h  S t r e e t  
B iruiinghat:, Alabam a 3-20 3

''UiW - H; ;;.V ly , . }t. rt>

' | ■■ :

33



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I N  T H E  U N I T E D  S T A T E S  D I S T R I C T  C O U R T ,  N O R T H E R N  

D I S T R I C T  OF A L A B A M A ,  I N  T H E  E A S T E R N  D I V I S I O N ,

C H R I S T I N E  A R C H I E ,  a t  a l ,  )

P l a i n t i f f s ,  )

v s ®  )  N o ,  6 7 - 4 4 0

T H E  -ALABAMA I N S T I T U T E  F O R  D E A F  )
A m  B L I N D ,  a t  a l ,

)
D e f e n d a n t s ,

)

C A P T I O N

D E P O S I T I O N  O F  MR. E .  H .  G E N T R Y ,  t a k e n  o n  t h e  

2 6 t h  d a y  o f  O c t o b e r ,  1 9 6 7 ,  a t  M a n n i n g  H a l l ,  T h e  

A l a b a m a  I n s t i t u t e  f o r  D e a f  a n d  B l i n d ,  T a l l a d e g a ,  

A l a b a m a ,  b e f o r e  T h o m a s  P .  M e a d o r  a s  C o m m i s s i o n e r .

M E S S R S .  D E M E T R I U S  C. N E W T O N  an d  F R A N R  W H I T E ,  

a p p e a r i n g  f o r  tie P l a i n t i f f s .

MR. R O B E R T  P .  BRA D L E Y ,  a p p e a r i n g  f o r  the D e ­

f e n d a n t s



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S T I P U L A T I O N

I T  I S  S T I P U L A T E D  A N D  A G R E E D  b y  a n d  b e t w e e n  t h e  

p a r t i e s  t h r o u g h  t h e i r  r e s p e c t i v e  c o u n s e l  t h a t  t h e  

d e p o s i t i o n  o f  H r *  E .  H .  G e n t r y ,  m a y  b e  t a k e n  b e f o r e  

T h o t a a a  P .  M e a d o r ,  C o w a t i s s  l o n e r ,  a t  T a l l a d e g a ,  A  i s  b a m a ,  

on  t h e  2 6 t h  d a y  o f  O c t o b e r ,  1 9 6 ? *

I T  I S  F U R T H E R  S T I P U L A T E D  A  I ®  A G R E E D  t h a t  t h e  

r e a d i n g  o f  a n d  s i g n a t u r e  t o  t h e  d e p o s i t i o n  b y  t h e  w i t ­

n e s s  i s  w a i v e d ,  s a i d  d e p o s i t i o n  t o  h a v e  t h e  s a n e  f o r c e  

m l i d  © f l e e t  a s  i f  f u l l  c o m p l i a n c e  h a d  b e e n  h a d  w i t h  a l l  

l a w s  a n d  r u l e s  o f  c o u r t  r e l a t i n g  t o  t h e  t a k i n g  o f  d e ­

p o s i t i o n s  *

I T  I S  F U R T H E R  S T I P U L A T E D  A ®  A G R E E D  t h a t  i t  s h a l l

n o t  b e  n e c e s s a r y  f o r  a n y  o b j e c t i o n #  t o  b e  m a d e  b y  

c o u n s e l  t ©  a n y  q u e s t i o n s ,  e x c e p t  a #  t o  f o r m  o r  l e a d ­

i n g  q u e s t i o n s ,  a n d  t h a t  c o u n s e l  f o r  t h e  p a r t i e s  mmy 

mm k e  o b j e c t i o n s  a n d  a s s i g n  g r o u n d s  a t  t h e  t i n e  o f  t r i a  

o r  a t  t h e  t i n e  s a i d  d e p o s i t i o n  i s  o f f e r e d  i n  e v i d e n c e ,  

o r  p r i o r  t h e r e t o .

L

I T  I S  F U R T H E R  S T I P U L A T E D  A N D  A G R E E D  t h a t  n o t i c e

o f  f i l i n g  © £  t h e  d e p o s i t i o n  b y  t h e  C c s e m i s s i o a e r  i s  

w ®  i v e d  *



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I IS) E X

M i x m s s

E. H. G E N T R Y

E X A M I N A T I O N  B Y  MR. W H I T E  4

E X A M ! R A T I O N  B Y  MR. B R A D L E Y  144

192



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1 ,  Thomas  P .  M e a d o r ,  O f f i c i a l  C o u r t  R a p o r t e r  

a n d  N o t a r y  P u b l i c ,  S t a t a  o f  A l a b a m a  a t  L a r g a ,  a c t i n g

a ®  C o m m i s s i o n e r ,  c e r t i f y  t h a t  o n  t h i s  d a t e  a s  p r o v i d e d  

f e y  t h e  F e d e r a l  R u l e s  o f  C i v i l  P r o c e d u r e  © f  t h e  U n i t e d  

S t a t e s  D i s t r i c t  C o u r t  a n d  t h e  f o r e g o i n g  s t i p u l a t i o n  

@ £  c o u n s e l  t h e r e  e a s e  b e f o r e  mm  a t  t h e  A l a b a m a  I n s t i ­

t u t e  f o r  t h e  D e a f  a n d  B l i n d ,  t h e r e  c a m e  b e f o r e  m e  

o n  t h i s  d a t e  b e g i n n i n g  a t  1 0 : 3 0  a . ® , ,  E .  H .  G e n t r y ,  

w i t n e s s  i n  t h e  a b o v e  c a u s e  f o r  o r a l  e x a m i n a t i o n ,  

w h e n  t h e  f o l l o w i n g  p r o c e e d i n g s  w e r e  h a d  a n d -  d o n e :

E .  H .  G E N T R Y ,

c a l l e d  a s  a  w i t n e s s ,  b e i n g  d u l y  s w o r n ,  w a s  e x a m i n e d  

a n d  t e s t i f i e d  a s  f o l l o w s :

E X A M I N A T I O N  B Y  M R .  W H I T E :

q  W o u l d  y o u  s t a t e  y o u r  f u l l  n a m e  a m i  t i t l e ?

A  E w e l l  H o w a r d  G e n t r y ,  P r e s i d e n t ,  A l a b a m a  I n s t i ­

t u t e  f o r  t h e  D e a f  a n d  H i n d *

q  I f © s *  l o n g  h a v e  y o u  b e e n  a f f i l i a t e d  w i t h  t h e

I n s t i t u t e ?

A  T h i r t e e n  y e a r s .

q  l a  t h a t  t h i r t e e n  y e a r #  w h i l e  i t  w a s  a n  i n s t i ­

t u t e ,  o r  w @ r ®  y o u  a f f i l i a t e d  w i t h  i t  b e f o r e  i t  - -



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b e f o r e  t h e  c o n s o l i d a t e d  I n s t i t u t e  w a ®  c r e a t e d ?

A  H o ,  I  h a v e  b e e n  h e r ® ,  I  c a m e  h e r e  i n  1 9 5 4 ,  f r e e s  

t h e  S t a t e  D e p a r t m e n t  o f  E d u c a t i o n ,  

q  T h i r t e e n  y e a r s  i s  t o t a l ?

A  1  c a n e  h e r e  a s  D i r e c t o r  o f  F i e l d  S e r v i c e s  o f  

t h e A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t  a n d  C l i n i c a l  C o - O r d i n a t o r  o f  a l l  

c l i n i c a l  p r o g r a m ®  c o - o r d i n a t e d  w i t h  t h e  S t a t e  S e r ­

v i c e s  a n d  t h e  U n i v e r s i t y  M e d i c a l  C e n t e r  a n d  S t a t e  

R e h a b i l i t a t i o n  o f  C r i p p l e d  C h i l d r e n  S e r v i c e ,  T h i s  i s  

a y  s i x t h  y e a r  ms  P r e s i d e n t  o f  t h e  I n s t i t u t e ,  

q  Y o u  w e r e  t a a d ®  P r e s i d e n t  i n  1 9 6 1 ?

A  Y e s .

q  H o w  m a n y  s e p a r a t e  i n s t i t u t i o n s  d o e s  t h e  i n s t i ­

t u t e  m a i n t a i n ?

A  W e  t h i n k  o f  i t  a s  b e i n g  o n e  s c h o o l ;  w e  l i k e  t o  

t h i n k  o f  i t  a s  b e i n g  a  o n ® s c h o o l  u n i t ,  

q  L e t  m e  c h a n g e  t h e  q u e s t i o n .

H o w  m a n y  s e p a r a t e  s i t e s  a r e  t h e r e ?

A  T h e r a  a m  s i x ,

q  W o u l d  y o u  l i s t  t h o s e  f o r  m a ?

A  W e l l ,  t h i s  i s  t h e  A l a b a m a  S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  D e a f .

W e  h a v e  t h e  A l a b a m a  S t a t e  S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  D e a f .  W e  

h a v e  t h e  A l a b a m a  S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  B l i n d ,  a n d  t h e  A l a b a m a



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S t a t e  S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  B l i n d .  W e  h a v e  a  D e p a r t m e n t  f o r  

D e a f - B l i n d ,  H e l e n  K e l l e r ,  D e a f - B l i n d .  I t  i t s  n a m e d

i n  H o n o r  o f  H e l e n  K e l l e r ,  b u t  i t  i s  a  d e p a r t m e n t  o f  

t h e  d e a f - b l i n d ,  a n d  t h e n  w e  h a v e  t h e  D e p a r t m e n t  o f  

A d u l t  B l i n d  a n d  d e a f .  A l l  o f  t h a t  i s  u n d e r  ® n s  b o a r d .  

T h e y  a r ®  a l l  a a i  o f  t h e  I n s t i t u t e .

Q  I n c l u d i n g  t h e  A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t ?

A  Y e s .

Q  T h a t  i s  a l s o  p a r t  o f  t h e  I n s t i t u t e ?

A  Y a s g s i r ,

Q, A n d  und@ r  y o u r  d i r e c t i o n  a n d  c o n t r o l ?

A  W e l l ,  n o t  p r i m a r i l y .  W @  h a v e  - -  n o  s o r e  t h a n

t h i s  s c h o o l  i s  a d a r  m y  d i r e c t i o n .  T h e  b o a r d  l o o k s  

t o  m e ,  b u t  w e  h a v e  a  d i r e c t o r  o f  t h e  a d u l t  d e p a r t ­

m e n t  .

Q  A l l  r i g h t .

Y o u  a r e  h i s  s u p e r i o r  i n  t e r m s  o f  h i e r a r c h y  o f  

t h e  I n s t i t u t e ?

A. T h a t  i ®  t r u e ,  b u t  t h e r e  a g a i n ,  t h e r e  i s  a

s e p a r a t e  a p p r o p r i a t i o n  m a d e  t o  t h e  D e p a r t m e n t  f o r  t h e  

o p e r a t i o n  o f  t h e  s c h o o l ,  a n d  t h a t  d e p a r t m e n t  h a s  

a  r e g i o n * ,  1  l i b r a r y  f o r  t h e  b l i n d ,  s e r v i n g  t h e  b l i n d  

o v e r  t h e  S t a t e .  I t  h a s  f i e l d  s e r v i c e  f o r  t h e  b l i n d



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in clu d in g hoate teaching, l i r a  Ingham and elsewhere; 

i t  has counsel work fo r  both deaf and blind over  

the s t a t e .

T h e y  a r e  a l l  e m p l o y e d  b y  t h e  B o a r d  h e r e  i n  

c o - o p e r a t i o n  w i t h  t h e  S t a t e  R e h a b i l i t a t i o n  S e r v i c e .

Q  A r e  y o w  s a y i n g  w h i l e  t h e  A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t  i s  

p a r t  o f  t h e  I n s t i t u t e ,  i t  i s  norm  c o m p l e x  a n d  r e a l l y  

d i f f e r e n t  f r o ®  t h a  s c h o o l ?

4  I t  i s  m o r e  c o m p l e x  i n  o r d e r  t o  s e r v e  t h e  d e a f  

a n d  t h e  M i n d  i n  t h e  s t a t e ;  t h e  s c h o o l  s e r v i c e  i s  

m e  I n l y  a t t e n d a n c e  w i t h i n  t h e  s c h o o l s .  T h e  a d u l t  d e p e r l : - i  

n e a t ,  1  w o u l d  s a y ,  r e n d e r s  m o r e  s e r v i c e s  a w a y  f r o ®  h a i w  

K h a n  t h e y  d o  h e r e ,  f

Q  T h r o u g h  o u t  t h e  S t a t e  t o  a l l  a d u l t s  w h o  a r e

s o  a f f l i c t e d ?

A  Y e s .

Q  R e g a r d i n g  t h e  f i r s t  f o u r  w ®  l i s t e d ,  I  t a k ®

i t  t h a t  t h e  s c h o o l ®  t h a t  a r e  d e n o m i n a t e d  S t a t e  

S c h o o l ®  a r e  s c h o o l s  t h a t  up t o  t h i s  p o i n t  a r e  a t t e n d e d  

o n l y  b y  N e g r o  c h i l d r e n ,  s o  t h a t  t h e  A l a b a m a  S t a t e  

S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  D « a £  i s  a  s c h o o l  f o r  t h e  d e a f  t o  

w h i c h  N e g r o  d e a f  c h i l d r e n  h a v e  b e e n  a s s i g n e d ?

A  T h a t  h a s  b e e n  t h e  e a s t e e  d o w n  t h r o u g h  t h e  y e a r s .



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Q. A n d  t h e  s a w ®  i s  t r u e  f o r  t h e  A  l a t e s t ®  S t a t e  

S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  B l i n d ?

A  T h a t  i s  t r u e *

Q  T h e r e  m m  o ©  w h i t ®  c h i l d r e n  i n  a t t e n d a n c e ,  o r  

l i v i n g  a t  t h e  A l a b a m a  S t a t e  S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  B l i n d  a n d  

t h e  A l a b a m a  S t a t e  S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  D e a f ?

A  N o *  n o t  l i v i n g  t h e r e ,  hut  i n  a t t e n d a n c e ,  T o m

v e s s I d  h a v e  t o  - -  i t  w o u l d  b e  n e c e s s a r y  f o r  y o u  t o

c h a r a c t e r i z e  w h a t  y o u  m e a n  b y  i n  a t t e n d a n c e .

Q  L e t  a e  g ©  b a c k .

Y o u  s a y  t h e r e  a r e  n o  w h i t e  c h i l d r e n  l i v i n g  i n  

t h o s e  t w o  s c h o o l s ?

A  E x c e p t  the H e l e n  K e l l e r  D e p a r t m e n t .

Q  B e f o r e  I  t a l k  a b o u t  t h a t *  l e t  m e  g e t  b a c k  t o  

thm  S t a t e  S c h o o l s ,

1 ©  w h i t e  c h i l d r e n  l i v e  t h e r e ,  b u t  y o u  a r e  

s u g g e s t i n g ,  I  t h i n k  t o m ®  a t t e n d  c l a s s e s ?

A  R i g h t .

q  C a n  y o u  e x p l a i n  a n d  t e l l  u s  a b o u t  t h a t ?

A  A l l  © £  o u r  v o c a t i o n a l  c l a s s e s ,  i f  w ®  c a n ' t  m a i n ­

t a i n  c e r t a i n  f a c i l i t i e s  f o r  a l l  s c h o o l s ,  w e  c o m b i n e  

i t  a n d  m a i n t a i n  i t  f o r  a l l  t h e  c h i l d r e n  o f  a l l  t h e  

s c h o o l s .  F o r  e x a m p l e ,  t h e  a u t o - m e c h a n i c s ,  y o u  m a y



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g o  in  s o d  se e  t h u s  w o r k i n g  t o g e t h e r .

Q  L e t  m e  a s k  y o u  t h i s .

T o  m a k e  i t  m o m  s p e c i f i c ,  h o w  s a s s y  w h i t e  

s t u d e n t s  s r e  n o w  a t t e n d i n g  s a y  c l a s s e s  a t  a l l  a t  t h e  

w h i t e  D e a f  S c h o o l !

A  T o t s  d i d  n o t  m e a n  y o u r  q u e s t i o n  t o  b e  w h i t e  

a t t e n d i n g  t h e  w h i t e  D e a f !

Q  M o 9 e x c u s e  m e ,  I  m e a n  w h i t e  s t u d e n t s  a t  t h e  

l e g r o  D e a f  S c h o o l !

A  H o n e .

Q  M o w !

A  M o ,  s i r .

Q  A r e  t h e r e  a n y  w h i t e  c h i l d r e n  a t t e n d i n g  c l a s s e s

i n  t h e  M e g r o  B l i n d  S c h o o l !

A  M o .

Q  S ©  t h a t  w h i l e  y o u  d o  h a v e  a  p r o g r a m ,  n o b o d y  ■

i s  p r e s e n t l y  a t t e n d i n g  c l a s s ® ®  a t  t h o s e  s c h o o l s  o f  

fe lt®  o t h e r  race!

A  W e l l ,  t h a t  l a  t r u e ;  w e  d o n ’ t  h a v e  a  p r o g r a m

e x c e p t  in the v o c a t i o n a l  uge. W e  h a v e  a  p r o j e c t e d  

p r o g r a m  w h i c h  w e  h a v e  a v a i l a b l e  to  the s t u d e n t s  t o  be

u s e d .



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$  A r t  t l i ® r e  a n y  w h i t ®  c h i l d r e a  a t t e n d i n g  t h e

v o c a t i o n a l  p r o g r a m  a t  e i t h e r  o f  t h o s e  s c h o o l s ,  t h e  

H e g r o  D e a f  o r  n e g r o  B l i n d ,  o n  a  d a i l y  b a s i s ?

A  S o .

Q, M o w ,  i s  t h e  s a m e  t h i n g  t r u e  o f  f c g r o  c h i l d r e n  

r e g a r d i n g  t h e  W h i t ®  D e a f  a n d  W h i t ®  B l i n d  S c h o o l s  ( a )  

t h a t  tbmj  a r e  n o t  l i v i n g  a t  t h e  W h i t e  D e a f ,  i n  ( h e  

d o n a ?

A  T h a t  i s  t r u e .

Q  A n d  ( b )  t h a t  t h e y  i r e  n o t  a t t e n d i n g  e i t h e r  c l a s s ­

r o o m  a c a d e m i c  s u b j e c t s  o r  v o c a t i o n a l ,  c o m i n g  t o  t h e  

i c h o o l  f o r  t h e  p u r p o s e  o f  t a k i n g  a  v o c a t i o n a l  c o u r s e  

a t  t h e  p r e s e n t  t i m e ?

A  W e  h a v e  t w o  i n  a u t o - m e c h a n i c s  d o w n  t e r ® ;  1  w o u l d  

h a v e  t o  c h e c k  t o  s e e  i f  p r e s e n t l y  a n y  o n e  i s  e n r o l l e d  

i n  t h a t ;  w h e r e  w e  t e a c h  l a u n d r y  a n d  d r y - c l e a n i n g ,  s t u ­

d e n t ®  f r o ®  b o t h  s c h o o l s  g o  i n t o  t h a t ,  w h i t e  a n d  M a g r o ,  

t h e  § « a e  * s  t h e y  d o  i n  m e c h a n i c s .

Q  W h e r e  i s  t h a t  t a u g h t ?

A  T h a t  i s  d o w n  a t  - -  t h a t  h a s  b e a n  a  p a r t  o f  o u r  

S t a t e  S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  D e a f .

Q  1  t h o u g h t  w e  s a i d  t h e r e  w e r e  no  w h i t e  c h i l d r e n  

a t t e n d i n g  s c h o o l  d o w n  t h e r e ?



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A  1  n o t i c e d  d o w n  t h e r e  t h e  o t h e r  d a y  t h e y  d o n ’ t  

h a v e  b u t  f o u r  s t u d e n t s  o u t s i d e  o f  e m p l o y e d  p e r s o n n e l  

d o i n g  o u r  l a u n d r y  i n  t r a i n i n g .

W e  h a v e  a n  i n s t r u c t o r ,  b u t  t h e r e  a r e  f o u r  s t u ­

d e n t * ,  t w o  w h i t e  a n d  t w o  N e g r o .

q  l a ®  s  o a e w h a  t  c o n f u s e d ,  b e c a u s e  I  a s k e d  i f

w h i t e  c h i l d r e n  w e r e  a t t e n d i n g  a  c o u r s e  - -

M E .  B R A D L E Y :  I  t h i n k  y o u r  q u e s t i o n  w a s  d o w n  a t  

t h e  s c h o o l  f o r  t h e  D e a f  t h e r e  w e r e  a ©  w h i t e  s t u d e n t s  

a t t e n d i n g  t h e  S t a t e  S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  D e a f ,  a n d  h e  

a n s w e r e d  i t  y e s ,  a n d  t h a t  i s  t r u e ,  a n d  w h e n  w e  g e t  t o  

t h e  V o c a t i o n a l  D e p a r t m e n t ,  t h a t  w i l l  b e  d i f f e r e n t .

M E .  W H I T S :  1  t h i n k  1  a s k e d  t h e  q u e s t i o n  l a t e r ,  

a n d  l e t ’ s  g ©  b a c k  a n d  s e e ,

( W h e r e u p o n ,  t h e  q u e s t i o n  a n d  a n s w e r s  w e r e  r e a d

a *  f o l l o w s : )

” qs A r e  t h e r e  a n y  w h i t e  c h i l d r e n  a t t e n d i n g  

c l a s s e s  i n  t h e  N e g r o  B l i n d  S c h o o l ?

" A  M o . )

A  I  c a n ’ t  a n s w e r  n o  u n t i l  I  f i n d  o u t ,  b e c a u s e  

t h e y  s w i t c h  t h e ®  f r o ®  t i m e  t ©  t i m e  i n  t h e  V o c a t i o n a l  

D e p a r t * ® a t .

ME® WHITS; Off the record.



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( O f f  t h e  r e c o r d  d i s c u s s i o n . )

Q  H r .  G e n t r y ,  w o u l d  y o u  s u p p l y  u s ,  s o m e t i m e

b e f o r e  t h e  t r i a l  o f  t h e  c a s e ,  w h i c h  i s  s c h e d u l e  f o r  

t h e  9 t h ,  s O B t a f c i a a ®  n e x t  w e e k ,  w i t h  a  l i s t  c o n t a i n i n g  

t h e  n a m e s  o f  e a c h  N e g r o  c h i l d  a t  e i t h e r  t h e  b l i n d  o r  

d e a f  s c h o o l  t h a t  i s  i n  t h e  f a l l  t e r m  o f  1 9 6 7 - 1 9 6 8 ,  

a t t e n d i n g  o n  a  d a i l y  b a s i s ,  o r  c l a s s e d  w e e k l y ,  w h a t "  

e v e r  i t  i s ,  v o c a t i o n a l  c o u r s e  a t  a  w h i t e  s c h o o l ,  a n d  

s u p p l y  m e  a l s o  a  l i s t  t h a t  h a s  t h a t  a n d  t h e  d a y s  

t h a t  h e  i s  a t  t h a t  w h i t e  s c h o o l .

A l a ©  t h e  n a m e s  © £  w h i t e  s t u d e n t s  w h o  a t t e n d  

v o c a t i o n a l  c o u r s e s  a t  t h e  l e g r o  s c h o o l s ,  e i t h e r  t h e  

M « g r o  d e a f  o r  N e g r o  b l i n d ,  a n d  t h e  c o u r s e  o r  c o u r s e s  

t h e y  a r e  t a k i n g  t h e r e ,  a n d  t h e  d a y s  t h e y  a r e  i n  

a t t e n d a n c e ,  a n d  X  t h i n k  t h i s  w o u l d  c l a r i f y  o u r  p r o ­

b l e m ?

A  I  t h i n k  y o u  a r e  e x a c t l y  r i g h t ;  I  t h i n k  t h a t

w o u l d  c l a r i f y  i t ,  a n d  1  w o u l d  b e  g l a d  t o  g e t  y o u  t h a t .  

Q  W e  w i l l  m a k e  t h a t  a  p a r t  o f  t h e  r e c o r d  a t  t h e

t  r l a 1 .

B u t  t o  r e s t a t e ,  g e n e r a l l y ,  s o  w e  w i l l  k n o w  

w h e r e  w e  a r e ,  y o u r  p o s i t i o n  i s  t h a t  c h i l d r e n  w h o  

a t t e n d  v o c a t i o n a l  c o u r s e s ,  d o  g o  t o  t h e  o t h e r  s c h o o l



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i f  i t  I s  o f f e r e d  t h * r » ,  r e g a r d l e s s  o f  r a c e ,  a n d  

a t t e n d  t h o s e ?

A  Y e s .

Q  B u t  i n  t h e  t e r a s  o f  r e g u l a r  a c a d e m i c  c o u r s e s ,  

t h e y  d o  n o t ,  t h e y  g o  r i g h t  w h e r e  t h e y  h a v ©  b e e n  

a s s i g n e d ?

4  T h a t  i s  t r u e .

C o u l d  1  a s k  y o u  a  q u e s t i o n ?

Q  Y o u  c e r t a i n l y  s a y .

A  I n .  o u r  s p e e c h  a n d  h e a r i n g  c e n t e r ,  f o r  e x a m p  l a ,

© r  i n  o u r  h o s p i t a l ,  w h i c h  i s  a n  i n t e g r a l  p a r t  o f  

a l l  o f  o u r  s c h o o l s ,  w @  h a v e  t o  h a v e  t h a t  f o r  e a r ® ,

1  e x p e c t  t h i s  m o r n i n g  i f  w e  w o u l d  g o  d o w n  t h e r e ,  w e  

w o u l d  f i n d  o u t  a u d i o l o g i s t  a n d  t h e r a p i s t  w o r k i n g  

w i t h  c h i l d r e n  w h o  a r e  r e g u l a r l y  s c h e d u l e d  e v e r y  d a y  

f o r  b o t h  o f  t h e  s c h o o l s ;  t h a t  i s  p a r t  o f  t h e i r  s c h o o l  

i n s t r u c t i o n .

q  W h e r e  i s  t h e  c e n t e r ?

A  D o w n  h e r e .

q  Y o u  a r e  s a y i n g  i n  t h e  c e n t e r  f o r  w h i t e  d e a f ,

b o t h  S e g r o  a n d  w h i t e  c h i l d r e n  a t t e n d  a n  a u d i o - v i s u a l  

A  H o ,  s p e e c h  a n d  h e a r i n g  i n c l u d e ®  t r a i n i n g  c h i l ­

d r e n  i n  a u d i o l o g i e s  1  t r a i n i n g .  T h a t  i s  t h e  u s e  o f



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h e a r i n g  a i d s .

Q  T h e  u s e  o f  e q u i p m e n t  —

A  i t  g o e s  b e y o n d  t h a t ;  i t  i s  i n s t r u c t i o n  o f  t h e

I n d i v i d u a l  c h i l d r e n .

Q  1  s u p p o s e  a l l  o f  t h i s  c o n s i s t  o f ,  i t  i s  a  r o o m  

w i t h  e q u i p m e n t ,  h e a r i n g  a i d s  a n d  v i s u a l  a i d s ,  a n d  a  

p e r s o n  t h a t  i n s t r u c t s  y o u  h o w  t o  u s e  i t ?

A  A  t a s t i n g  r o o m ,  a n d  a  p e r s o n  e q u i p p e d  t o  d o  i t ;  

w e  c o t i l d a 9 1  m a i n t a i n  t w o  s p e e c h  a n d  h e a r i n g  i n s t i ­

t u t e s .  T h e  a d u l t s  c o m e  i n t o  t h e  s a m e  c e n t e r .

Q  T h e  H s g r ©  c h i l d r e n  a r e  b u s s e d  i n  h e r ®  t o  mm km 

a s «  o f  t h e  c e n t e r ?

A  A s  w e l l  a s  t h e  w h i t e  f r o m  t h e  o t h e r  s c h o o l s .

Q  W h e r e  d o  y o u  t r e a t  c h i l d r e n  t h a t  a r e  b o t h  d e a f  

a n d  b l i n d ?

A  H e l e n  K e l l e r  D e p a r t m e n t ;  w e  c a l l  i t  t h e  D e p a r t -  

s e e t  f o r  D e a f  a n d  H i n d ;  I t  i s  a  s e p a r a t e  b u i l d i n g  

n o t  o n  t h i s  c a m p u s ;  i t  i s  f a c i n g  a n o t h e r  s t r e e t .

Q  I t  i s  o n  a  s e p a r a t e  c a m p u s ,  b u t  i t  a d j o i n s  a 

w h i t ®  s c h o o l  f o r  t h e  d e a f ,  d o ® f § » * t  i t ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r ,  i t  w o u l d  b e  c o n t i n g u o u s  t o  t h e  c a m p u s  

f o r  t h e  w h i t e - d e a f .

Q, A p p r o x i m a t e l y  h o w  m a n y  c h i l d r e n  l i v e  t h e r e ?



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A W e  have 7 1  on  e n r o l l m e n t ;  I  b e l i e v e  t w o  o f  

t h e m  h a v e  t h e i r  l i v i n g  q u a r t e r s  e lsew h e re , because i t

i s  t h e  o n l y  p l a c e  w e  h a v e  s p a c e  f o r  them, A l a b a m a  

S t a t e  S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  D e a f .

T h e  o t h e r s  l i v e  i n  t h i s  s a m e  f a c i l i t y .

Q  D i d  y o u  smj  h o w  m a n y  t h e r e  w e r e !

A  1  b e l i e f s  w e  h a v e  f o u r  n o n - w h i t e s  l i v i n g  i n  

t h a t  f a c i l i t y .

$  L e t  a ®  t r y  a n d  r e s t a t e  i t .  T h e r e  i r e  3 1  s t u ­

d e n t *  i n  a t t e n d a n c e ,  a p p r o x i m a t e l y ?

A  T h a t ’ s  r i g h t .  T h e y  a l l  l i v e  t h e r e  e x c e p t  t w o .

Q  A l l  l i v e  t h e r e  e x c e p t  t w o ?

A  T h a t ’ l l  r i g h t .

q  A n d  t h o s e  t w o  l i v e  a t  t h e  S t a t e  S c h o o l  f o r  t h e

D e a f ,  b u t  a t t e n d  c la s s e s  a t  t h e  K e l l e r  S c h o o l ?

A  T h a t * •  r i g h t .

Q  T h e y  « r ®  b u s s e d  o v e r  t h e r e  d a i l y ?

A  Y e s .

q  A n d  y o u  s t a t e d  a l s o  t h e r e  a r e  f o u r  n o n - w h i t e s  

l i v i n g  a t  t h e  H a  I a n  K e l l e r  S c h o o l ?

A 1 d o n ’ t  know what r a c e  you w o u l d  c a l l  t h e m ;

t h e r e  is  o n e  M exican; y o u  c a n  g o  o v e r  and look a t

t b # s s  i f  y o u  w a n t  t o .



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Q  T h e y  a r e  h o c  n e g r o e s ?

A  M o ,  s i r .

Q, H o  n e g r o e s  a c t u a l l y  l i v e  i n  t h e  d o r s a l t o r y  a t  

t h e  H e  l e a  K e l l e r  S c h o o l ?

A  T h a t 8 a  r i g h t .

Q  T h e y  l i v e  a t  t h e  S t a t e  S c h o o l ,  h u t  a r e  b u s s e d

o v e r  d a i l y  t o  a t t e n d  c l a s s e s  i n  t h e  H e l e n  K e l l e r  

S c h o o l ?

A  Y e s .

Q  I s  t h a t  a  h a n d i c a p  f o r  a  H e gro c h i l d  t h a t  i s  

both b l i n d  a n d  d e a l t  C a n  t h e y  p r o p e r l y  t r e a t  t h e m ?  

A  W e  don5 1  l e t  t h e m  go whet *  they s l e e p  u n t i l  

l a t e  i n  t h e  a£t«raeofS | w e  k e e p  than w i t h  a l l  o t h e r  

a c t i v i t i e s  w i t h  t h e  c h i l d r e n .

Q  H o w  l a t e  i s  t h a t ?

A  I t  i s  a b o u t  5  o ' c l o c k .  M e  h a v e  t o  e m p l o y  —  

m l i t t l e  g i r l  f o r  l i r a I n g h a m ,  f o r  e x a m p l e ,  w e  h a v e  

t o  employ  a  p e r s o n  b e s i d e s  t h e  s u p e r v i s o r  t o  l o o k  

a f t e r  t h a t  c h i l d ,  b e c a u s e  t h a t  c h i l d  i s  n o t  t o i l e t  

t r a i n e d *  a n d  w ®  a r e  t r y i n g  —

Q  I s  t h i s  o n e  © f  t h e  t w o  t t e g r o  c h i l d r e n ?

A  Y e s ,  « i r # f r o m  I i s »  I n g h a m ®

q , C a n  y o u  s t a t e  f o r  u s  t h e  c a p a c i t y  o f  t h e



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H e l e n  K e l l e r  S c h o o l  1 b  t e r n s  o f  d o r ®  s p a c e ?

A  2 5 .

Q 25?
A  ¥ ® s # s i r .

Q  A n d  t h e r e  a r e  3 1 ?

A  2 9 .

Q, T h e r e  a r e  2 9  l i v i n g  t h e r e ,  t h e  c a p a c i t y  i s  2 5 ?

A  W e  h a v e  t w o  o r  t h r e e  r o l l - a - w e y  b e d s  w e  a r e

h a v i n g  t ©  u s e  r i g h t  n o w ,  a n d  i t  i s  m p r e t t y  d i f f i ­

c u l t  s i t u a t i o n .

Q, W h a t  t i n e  o f  d a y  w o u l d  y o u  s a y  t h e  t w o  N e g r o  

c h i l d r e n  f r o ®  t h e  d e a f  s c h o o l  a r r i v e  o v e r  h e r e  i n  t h e  

m o r n i n g ?

A  S h o r t l y  a f t e r  7  o ’ c l o c k .

Q  W h a t  t i n e  d o  t h e y  r e t u r n ?

A  A b o u t  5  i n  t h e  a f t e r n o o n .

Q; W h o  c a r e s  f o r  t h e m  w h e n  t h e y  r e t u r n  a t  5 ?

A  A f t e r  t h e y  r e t u r n ?

Q  T o  t h e  S t a t e  S c h o o l ,  t h e  N e g r o  h o u s e  m o t h e r  a n d  

t h i n g s  o v e r  t h e r e ?

A  W h i l e  t h e y  a r e  h e r e ?

Q  N o ,  a t  t h e  S t a t e  S c h o o l ?

A  N o ,  w e  h a v e  t o  e m p l o y  a  s p e c i a l  p e r s o n  a b o v e



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t h e  h o u s e  p a r e n t s ,  b e c a u s e  th e y  r e q u i r e  m o r e  a t t e a t i  

t h e e  J u s t  a d e a f  c h i l d  o r  a b l i n d  c h i l d  w o u l d  r e ­

q u i r e  .

Q  S o  y o u  h a w ®  t h e s e  t w o  p e o p l e  a t  the d e a f  s c h o o l  

y o u  e m p l o y  a s p e c i a l  p e r s o n  to w a t c h  o v e r  them w h i l e  

t h e y  a r e  the r e !

A  Y e s ,  s i r ,

Q, W o u l d  y o u  say, Mr. G e n t r y ,  a l l  th i n g s  c o n s i ­

d e r e d ,  t h e s e  t w o  c h i l d r e n  d o n 8 1  fa r e  q u i t e  a s  w e l l  

as the o t h e r  29, s i m p l y  b e c a u s e  the o t h e r  29 a r e  

f o r  24 h o u r s  a d a y  in  a n  e n v i r o n m e n t  t h a t  is g e a r e d  

f o r  t h e i r  d o u b l e  h a n d i c a p ?  W o u l d  y o u  s a y  this p e r -  

h a p a  ha m p e r s  w h a t  m i g h t  © t h e r w i s s  be the p r o g r e s s  of 

the t w o  tfegr© c h i l d r e n ?

A  1 w o u l d  r a t h e r  th a t  the p r i n c i p a l  a n s w e r  that 

q u e s t i o n ,  b u t  y o u  w a n t  m e  to a n s w e r .  I w o u l d  s a y  

t h e y  a r e  g i v e n  b e t t e r  a t t e n t i o n  t h a n  t h e y  w o u l d  be if 

t h e y  h a d  to  be in the c r o w d e d  c o n d i t i o n s ,  b e c a u s e  

w e  h a v e  m m m  a d e q u a t e  f a c i l i t i e s  to ta k e  c a r s  of 

t h e ®  d u r i n g  the time a t  n i g h t  t h a n  w e  h a v e  u p  h e r e ,  

q  W h a t  1® the p r i n c i p a l ' s  name, d i d  y o u  s a y

M r s .  S n e l l ?

A  Yes.



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q  W h a t  is h « r  titla?

A  S h e  it the p r i n c i p a l  o r  d i r e c t o r  of that

« € h o o l s the D e p a r t m e n t  of D a a f - B l i n d ,  

q  T h e  H e l e n  K e l l e r  S c h o o l ?

A  Y e s .

q  1 a m  n o t  q u i t e  su r e  I n o t e  rata ad y o u r  a n s w e r .

It it the f a c t  that & a r e  i® m o r e  r o o m  f o r  t h e m  -- 

A  M o r e  room* t h a t * ®  right.

q  I w o u l d  t h i n k  that a c h i l d  w h o  is b o t h  d e a f  

a n d  b l i n d  w o u l d  be b e t t e r  off* I m a y  be w r o n g *  as a 

l a y m a n  in this* w o u l d  be b e t t e r  off, a p a r t  f r o m  

o v e r c r o w d e d ,  if h e  w e s  in a f a c i l i t y  that is g e a r e d  

f o r  m c h i l d  t h a t  is d e a f  a n d  b l i n d ;  is  o t h e r  w o r d s ,  

o v e r  a t  the S t a t e  S c h o o l  w h e n  he  is th e r e  i n  the 

e v e n i n g s ,  h e  m i g h t  h a v e  t o  be led a r o u n d ,  f o r  e x a m p l e ,  

a n d  p e r h a p s  at H e l e n  K e l l e r ,  the e n v i r o n m e n t  is s o  

c o n t r o l l e d  the c h i l d  c a n  l e a r n  to  d o  m o r e  i n  that 

e n v i r o n m e n t .  W o u l d n ' t  th a t  J u d ^ i e n t  s e a m  r e a s o n a b l e ?  

A  I t  d e p e n d s  on y o u r  s p a c e  a n d  d e p e n d s  o n  the p e r ­

s o n n e l  y o u  h a v e  to take care of them, 

q  Im it tr u e  that the f a c i l i t i e s  at H e l e n  K e l l e r  

a r e  g e a r e d  f o r  c h i l d r e n  b o t h  d e a f  a n d  b l i n d ,  a n d  t h e n  

m m  n o  f a c i l i t i e s  at  the S t a t e  S c h o o l  f o r  the r e h a b i -



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l i t e t i o n  of a  c h i l d  w h o  la d o a f  a n d  b l i n d ?

I s n ' t  t h a t  ju s t  a s l a p l a  fact?

A  M a l i *  1 d o n ' t  w a n t  t o  f a i l  t o  a n s w a r  a n y  q u a s t i o  

b u t  w ®  h a v e  th e r e  a t  least t h r e e  o r  f o u r  c h i l d r e n  

n o w  t h a t  s p e n d  the n i g h t  t h e t a  t h a t  w e  w o u l d  like v a r y  

orach f o r  t h e n  to ha a p a r t  of this c a m p u s , b u t  w a  h a v e  

n o  b e d s  h e r ® ;  it is just c r o w d e d ;  I d o n ' t  see a n y  r e a ­

s o n  f o r  h a v i n g  t h a n  t w e n t y - f o u r  h o u r s  a d a y  in that 

facility,,

M e  a r e  c o n t e m p l a t i n g  no w  t h e  p o s s i b i l i t y  n o w  

of t a k i n g  f o u r  o r  f i v e  d e a f - b l i n d  c h i l d r e n  f o r  t h e i r  

c a r e  i n  a n e w  b u i l d i n g  b e g i n n i n g  w i t h  —  a b e g i n n e r s  

school,' that i® b e i n g  b u i l t  o n  this c a m p u s .  It w i l l  

b e  i n  o p e r a t i o n  next fall. S o m e  of t h o s e  c h i l d r e n  

w o u l d  p r o b a b l y  f a i r  b e t t e r  i n  that s c h o o l ,  h a v i n g  tha 

i n s t r u c t i o n  in the d e a f - b l i n d  i n s t i t u t i o n a l  p r o g r a m  

i n s t e a d  of a r e g u l a r  c l a s s r o o m  i n  the s c h o o l .

Q  W h a t  is this n e w  b u i l d i n g ;  is it a b u i l d i n g  

g e a r e d  f o r  c h i l d r e n  w h o  a r e  b l i n d  a n d  d e a f ?

A  Mo; it is b u i l t  f o r  b e g i n n i n g  d e a f  c h i l d r e n .

Q  F o r  b e g i n n i n g  d e a f  c h i l d r e n ?

A  Yes. But 1 mm s a y i n g  i w  of o u r  d e a f - b l i n d  

s a y  f a r e  b e t t e r  a n d  get m o r e  c£ the t h i n g s  th ey M ed if



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w a  s h o u l d  m o v e  f o u r  o r  f i v e  o f  t h e m  I n t o  t h i s  f o r  

t h e  d o m i c i l i a r y  c a r e .  I t  d o e s n *  t  a e c e a a a r i l y  f o l l o w  

t h a t  j u s t  b a c a u a e  y o u  h a v e  s p e c i a l  i n s t r u c t i o n  p r o g  r a w  

f o r  t h e m ,  i t  j u s t  m e a n s  y o u  h a v e  s p e c i a l  c a r e  

d u r i n g  t h e  n i g h t .

Q, B u t #  i n  p o i n t  o f  f a c t #  t h e  w h i t e  c h i l d r e n  a n d  

t h e  o t h e r  n o n - w h i t e  c h i l d r e n  w h o  a r e  i n  t h e  H e l e n  

K e l l e r  i n s t i t u t e #  h a v e  t h i s  f o r  t w e n t y - f o u r  h o u r s  a  

d a y #  a n d  t h e  H e g r o  c h i l d r e n  t h a t  w #  k n o w  o f  o n l y  

h a v e  i t  f r o m  ?  u n t i l  5 ;  t h a t  i s  a  f a c t ,  i s n *  t  i t ?

A  Y e s .

q  A n d  t h e r e  i s  s i s  o b s e r v a t i o n  I  w i s h  y o u  w o u l d  

r e a f f i r m  f o r  u s #  a n d  t h a t  i s  a l t h o u g h  t h e  c a p a c i t y  

n o w  i s  2 5 #  t h e r e  i s  n o w  f o u r  o v e r  c a p a c i t y ?

A  I t  i s .

q  I t  c o u l d  b ®  s i x  o v e r  c a p a c i t y #  b u t  i t  i s  n o t # 

b e c a u s e  t h e  t w o  n e g r o e s  a r e  k e p t  i n  t h e  H e g r o  S c h o o l !  

A  H o ;  I  w o u l d n * t  s a y  i t  c o u l d  b e  s i x  o v e r  c a ­

p a c i t y #  b e c a u s e  w e  h a v e  a  w a i t i n g  l i s t  o f  t h i r t e e n  

s o w  t h a t  w ®  ® a n * t  t a k e #  o f  b o t h  r a c e s .  

q  W h e r e  m ra t h o s e  t h i r t e e n  c h i l d r e n ?

A  S c a t t e r e d  g r o u n d  t h e  t w e l v e  s o u t h e r n  s t a t e s .

T h i s  i s  «  l e g i o n *  1  f a c i l i t y #  y o u  h a v e  t o  r e m e m b e r .  I t



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i a  o p e r a t e d  u n d e r  o u r  B o a r d ;  w e  h a v e  n e v e r  t u r n e d  

d m n  a n  A l e  b e n e  c h i l d .  W e  h a v e  o n e  n o w ,  a s  I  t o l d  

y o u  a  m i n u t e  a g o *  a  c h i l d  f r o m  a n y  o t h e r  S t a t e ,  w e  

w o u l d n ' t  h a v e  t h e m  h e r e .

Q  D ©  y o u  h a v e  a n y  c h i l d  f r o m  o u t s i d e  A l a b a m a ?

A  A i l  e x c e p t  f o u r .

<1 A l l  © f  t h e m  e x c e p t  f o u r  a r e  f r o ®  o u t s i d e  

A l a b a m a ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r .

Q, A r e  t h e  t w o  H e g r o  c h i l d r e n  f r o ®  A l a b a m a ?

A  Y ® s ,  s i r .

Q  I s  i t  i r o n i c  t h a t  t h e  t w o  S e g r ©  c h i l d r e n  f r o ®  

A l a b a m a  h a v e  t o  s p e n d  p a r t  o f  t h e i r  t i m e  o u t s i d e  t h e  

s c h o o l ,  w h i l e  c h i l d r e n  f r o m  o u t s i d e  t h e  S t a t e  o f  

A l a b a m a  - -

A  Y o u r  s t a t e m e n t  i s  i n c o r r e c t  e n t i r e l y .

Q  I  w o u l d  l i k e  t o  b e  c o r r e c t e d .

A  T h e  S t a t e  o f  A l a b a m a  h a s  n e v e r  p u t  o n e  d i m e

i n t o  t h e  e d u c a t i o n  o f  t h e  d e a f “ b l i n d  c h i l d .  T h a t  i s  

f i n a n c e d  c o m p l e t e l y  b y  t u i t i o n  w e  c h a r g e  o u t  o f  

S t a t e ,  a n d  w e  a r e  a b l e  t o  t a k e  c a r e  o f  A l a b a m a  c h i l d  

i n s o f a r  a s  w ®  c a n ,  w i t h  t h e  m o n e y  t h a t  i s  p r o v i d e d  

b y  o t h e r  S t a t e s .



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Q  A c  S a i n s  K e l l e r ,  it r e a l l y  la a t u i t i o n  s c h o o l ?  

A  Ye a ,  air,

Q  list f o r  A l a b a m a  c h i l d r e n ,  it is n o t  a t u i t i o n  

s c h o o l ?

A  I c o u l d n ' t  c harge,

M R .  B R A D U i Y :  H o  s t a t e  m o n e y  i n  th a t  o p e r a t i o n .  

MR .  * HY©!f: low, Mr. G e n t r y ,  the s a m e  b o a r d  

th a t  o p e r a t e s  a l l  the o t h e r  f a c i l i t i e s ,  that is the 

S t a t e  S c h o o l  f o r  the D e a f  a n d  th e  S t a t e  S c h o o l  f o r  

the B l i n d ,  the A l a b a m a  S c h o o l  f o r  the D e a f  a n d  A l a ­

b a m a  S c h o o l  f o r  the B l i n d ,  a n d  the A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t ,  

a l a ©  o p e r a t e  the H e l e n  K e l l e r  S c h o o l ?

MR. 1 SWT01: A n d  the land o n  w h i c h  the H e l e n  

H o l i e r  S c h o o l  is l o c a t e d  is ©w s » d  b y  the S t a t e  of 

A l a b a m a ?

A  Yes.

M R .  HEWTON: M i  the b u i l d i n g  i tself?

A  Yea.

Q  W o u l d  y o u  s t a t e  f o r  us, Mr. G e n t r y ,  b y  re ­

f e r r i n g  t o  a n y  of th e s e  d o c u m e n t s ,  p r e c i s e l y  h e w  

m a n y  s t u d e n t s  a r e -  i n  a t t e n d a n c e  a t  e a c h  of the 

f o u r  s c h o o l s ?

A  Yes, sir; I c a n  get that right now.



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Q A n d  t h e  H e l e n  K e l l e r  ami Che A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t ,  

d u r i n g  t h e  p r e s e n t  t e r m ?

A  Y e a ;  1  h a v e  t h a t ,  a n d  w o u l d  b e  g l a d  t o  f u r n i s h  

y o u  w i t h  a  c o p y  o f  i t .

Q  I  w o u l d  l i f e ®  t o  g e t  t h o s e  i n  t h e  d e p o s i t i o n ,  

J u s t  t h e  t o t a l .

A  T h e s e  e r e  3 1 5  i n  t h i s  s c h o o l .

Q, i y  t h i s  s c h o o l ,  t h a t  i s  t h e  - -

A  W e  c a l l  i t  t h e  A S D ,  A l a b a m a  S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  D e a l

Q  3 1 5  i n  t h e  w h i t e  d e a f ?

A  Y e s .

Q  O . K .

A  T h e r e  a r e  1 7 1  i n  t h e  A l a b a m a  S t a t e  S c h o o l  f o r

t h e  D e a f .

Q  T h a t  i s  t h e  N e g r o  D e a f ?

A  N e g r o  D e a f .

$  A l l  r i g h t .

A  T h a r ®  a r e  1 4 0  i n  t h e  W h i t e  B l i n d ,  a n d  75f

t h a t  w a s  —  y o u  s e e ,  I  g e t  a  r e c o r d  e v e r y  M o n d a y  o f  

t h e  e n r o l l m e n t  m m I  n e w  o n e s  t h a t  c o n e  i n ,  a n d  o n e s  

that g o  o u t  f r o m  e a c h  s c h o o l .  T h i s  is w a y  back, 

g i v i n g  y o u  the e n r o l l m e n t  f o r  the o t h e r  y e a r s  y o u  

w a n t e d .



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MR. B R A D L E Y !  W h a t  a b o u t  tha A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t ?

A  T h a t  m a y  wary. E v e r y  d a y  t h a t  v a r i a a  » o a f , 

b e c a u s e  t h e y  d o n #t h a v e  a n y  ti«e of e n r o l l m e n t , bit 

It w i l l  a v e r a g e  a b o u t  110.

q  n o ?

A  The aa w  s c h o o l  that w i l l  go I n t o  o p e r a t i o n  la 

J a n u a r y  is set u p  t o  take ca r e  of a maximum o f  2 5 0 .

Q  Th i s  m w  s c h o o l  is g e a r e d  f o r  t r a i n i n g  a d u l t s ?

A  T h a t * ®  right, b u t  not n e c e s s a r i l y ;  th e r e  a g a i n  

it 1® h a r d  t o  a n s w e r  y o u r  q u e s t i o n .

Q, Let me i n t e r j e c t .  I k n o w  y o u r  s u g g e s t i o n  that

y o u  a n t i c i p a t e  p e r h a p s  h a v i n g  no n e  b l i n d - d e a f  c h i l ­

d r e n  there too?

A  Yes.

Q  S ©  that it w i l l  h a v e  s e v e r a l  u s e s ?

A  I t  w i l l  h a v e  s e v e r a l  uses. It w i l l  h a v e  u s e s

f o r  s t u d e n t s  a t  this s c h o o l ,  f o r  e x a m p l e  --

MR. BRADLEY: B e f o r e  w e  get on to that, let's 

c o m p  let® this o t h e r  one a b o u t  the n u m b e r  at the 

H e l e n  K e l l e r  S c h o o l .  Y o u  s a y  there ar e  31?

A  31.

Q  A l l  right.

MR. B R A D L E Y :  A n d  t h e n  w e  w i l l  h a v e  e v e r y t h i n g .



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I s  that e v e r y t h i n g  new?

A  T h a t  is all*

ME. MfiWTOH: W h a t  a b o u t  a b r e a k d o w n  of this 110? 

q D o  w e  k n o w  h o w  m a n y  of th® 110 w h o  a t t e n d  the 

A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t  ar e  Me gross ?

A  I h a v e  g o t t e n  it f r o m  time to time; it ia 

a l m o s t  a b o u t  a 4 0 - 6 0  basis.

q W h i c h  w a y ?

A  W h i t e ,  60* It 4s a b o u t  o n  the p r o p o r t i o n  t© the 

t o t a l  p o p u l a t i o n  i n  the St a t e .

Q. S o  a b o u t  65 w o u l d  be w h i t e  a n d  45 w o u l d  be 

Me gro?

A  T e g .

I c o u l d  ® a k e  a note t o  give y o u  that e x a c t l y ,  

q  We w o u l d  fe® s a t i s f i e d  w i t h  those a p p r o x i m a t i o n s .

A  B u t  t h e y  h a v e  a d m i s s i o n  on M o n d a y s  e v e r y  w e e k ,

q  W e  h a v e  the a c t u a l  a t t e n d a n c e  fi g u r e s ;  w o u l d  y o u  

t e l l  us w h a t  the c a p a c i t y  is e a c h  y e a r  -- w h a t  the 

c a p a c i t y  is in e a c h  of those s c h o o l s  u n d e r  n o r m a l  

c o n d i t i o n s ,  a n d  b y  that, 1 m e a n  w h e n  the d o r m s  w e r e  

c o n s t r u c t e d ,  w h e n  th® c l a s s r o o m s  w e r e  c o n s t r u c t e d ,  

h o w  m a n y  s t u d e n t s  w e r e  th e y  c o n s t r u c t e d  t o  s e r v e ?

ME, BEADLES L e t ’s s t a r t  o n  a list a n d  st a r t



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w i t h  this s c h o o l  h e  ref

4  W o  v o  3 1 5 ,  o u g h t  t o  h a w s  2 7 5  t o  h a v o  a d e ­

q u a t e  s p a c e .  W o  h a v o  1 7 1  i n  t h e  o t h e r  s c h o o l ,  w e  

o u g h t  n o t  t o  h a v e  m o r e  t h a n  1 5 0 .

MR. B R A D L E Y :  Y o u  are t a l k i n g  a b o u t  the W e g r o

deaf?

A T h a t 9® r i g h t .

Q Whit® b l i n d ?

A  T h e y  h a v e  —

q 140?
A  T h e y  h a v e  p l e n t y  o f  s p e c ®  t h e r e ,  t h e y  h a v e  a d e ­

q u a t e  s p a c e  e x c e p t  w e  n e e d  a d d i t i o n a l  s p a c e  f o r  a b o u t  

t e n  g i r l s .  ' W e  h a v e  a  c r o w d  o f  g i r l s .  

q l o w  m a n y  i n d e n t s  i n  a l l ?

A About 1 3 0 ,
q A n d  the N e g r o  b l i n d  ha s  75?

A  1 w o u l d  s a y  65. S o  a l l  of o u r  f a c i l i t i e s  a r e

o w e  re r o w d e d .

Ml. B.HADLEY: And 1 beliefs you said 25 at Holes 

K e l l e r ?

A  T h a t 1 ®  r i g h t .

q 1 w o u l d  like t o  i n q u i r e  a little b i t  h o w  y o u  

a r r i v e  a t  the c a p a c i t y  f i g u r e s ,  a n d  this w i l l  c o m e  up



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a little bit later, hu t  let*a t a l k  right now.

W h e n  y o u  s a y  the w h i t e  d e a f  c a n  h o l d ,  the 

n o r m a l  c a p a c i t y  s h o u l d  be 275, h o w  d o  y o u  g o  a b o u t  

a r r i v i n g  a t  that n u m b e r ?

A  If I c o u l d  take y o u  a b o u t  f i f t y  yards a n d  take 

y o u  u p s t a i r s  a n d  let y o u  l o o k  a t  the c h i l d r e n ,  th e r e 

is n o t  a c t u a l l y  ro o m  b e t w e e n  the b e d s  t o  a l l o w  t h e m  

t o  s q u e e z e  b e t w e e n  the bed.

Q Y o u  a r e  b a s i n g  it o n  the n u m b e r  of b e d s  i n  the 

d o r m ?

A  If w e  w o v e  the beds f a r  e n o u g h  a p a r t  like t h e y  

a r e  i n  the o t h e r  s c h o o l s ,  w e  w o u l d  e l i m i n a t e  —  w e  

a r e  t a k i n g  c a r e  —  y o u  s a w  it, Hr. B r a d l e y ,  —  it 

is a n  i m p o s s i b l e  s i t u a t i o n ,  b u t  we  s o  d e s p e r a t e l y  

h a t e  t o  leave these c h i l d r e n  a t  h o m e ,  b u t  w e  h a d  

to  leave t w e l v e  a t  h o m e  last y e a r  f r o m  u p  h e r e ,  b u t  

w e  h a v e  n e v e r  left a H e g r o  c h i l d  at home.

Q  But g e n e r a l l y  s p e a k i n g ,  y o u  b a s e  these o n

a c c o m m o d a t i o n s  in  the d o r m i t o r y ?

A  T h a t * s  right. I k n o w  that f i g u r e  w o u l d n ’t 

vary m o r e  t h a n  t w o  o r  three. If y o u  h a d  e a c h  

p r i n c i p a l  i n  h a r e ,  t h e y  w o u l d  t e l l  y o u  w e  are o v e r ­

c r o w d e d .



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Q  A s e  th e r e  a n y  d o c u m e n t s  that p e r h a p s  w e r e  a ro u n d 

a t  the tiara the b u i l d i n g s  w e r e  c o n s t r u c t e d  that w o u l d  

s h o w  h o w  m a n y  y o u  i n t e n d e d  t h e m  to be us e d  for?

O r  r e p o r t s ,  o r  a n y t h i n g  like that?

A  Ho, sir, these s c h o o l s  that t h e y  h a v e  o v e r  the 

n a t i o n ,  t h e y  h a w  g r o w n  as s c h o o l  p o p u l a t i o n  h a s  grown. 

F o r  years, w h e n  1 w a s  i n  the r e h a b i l i t a t i o n ,  in r e ­

h a b i l i t a t i o n  i n  the S t a t e  D e p a r t m e n t  of E d u c a t i o n ,  w e  

w o u l d  find d e a f  a n d  b l i n d  c h i l d r e n  h i d  ©at, s o  to 

speak.

H o w  t h e y  ar e  c o m i n g  to live t h r o u g h  a l l  of o u r  

c l i n i c s ,  c r i p p l e d  c h i l d r e n ' s  s e r v i c e ,  s p e e c h  a n d 

h e a r i n g  c e n t e r s ,  the U n i v e r s i t y  of A l a b a m a  S p e e c h  a n d  

R e a r i n g  Ce n t a r ,  t h e y  are c o o i n g  to light, and I find 

this © v ® r  the nation.

T h e s e  b u i l d i n g s  w e r e  b u i l t ,  an d  they ar e  t o t a l l y  

I n a d e q u a t e  to m e a t  the p r e s e n t  d a y  needs f o r  the d e a f 

a n d  blind.

q  T o  s u m  up, I th i n k  y o u  have s a i d  that a l l  of the 

s c h o o l s  ar e  o v e r c r o w d e d  t© sees®extent?

A  A l l  of them.

q  W i t h  the e x c e p t i o n  of the w h i t e  bli n d ?

A  A n d  w @  need s p a c e  f o r  ten m o r e  girls, b u t  X w i l l



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gay t h i s ,  the worse s i tu a tio n  we have is  the eleme 

children in th is  school* the s o -c a lle d  white deaf

school. That is  the worst s itu a tio n  that we have.

q Would you t e l l  us how children are admitted to t!

in s t i tu t io n ?  How does a ch ild  become enrolled?

A We gee a l i s t  of children, we used to get i t

mainly by biennial  census taken by the State Department 

of Education.

They had to note those that are blind or deaf* 

but we get otar enrollment now mainly fro® children  

who attend, the larg est  number are from Birmingham* 

who attend Crippled Childrens Service C lin ic s *  and the 

have thousands of them  attending those c l i n i c s ; they 

re fe r  them to us.

The speech and hearing centers at  Birmingham, 

Mobile, Montgomery, places like that where parents go 

in,  we get a large number of our refe rrals  from 

those places.

Now, fam ilies themselves, when they become 

aware of a child not being able to hear, or they 

know they have a blind c h ild ,  and find out e a r l y ,  

they begin to make inquiry, and i t  is common knowledge 

in Alabama as other s t a t e s ,  that th is  is the school



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for  the deaf and blind.  1 would say i t  may be about 

a fo r t y  percent from parents, about t h ir t y  percent 

from our State Crippled Childrens S erv ice ,  and 

Health Department combined; they work j o i n t l y  in the 

c l i n i c s ,  and refe rrals  from these speech centers like  

Birmingham, the speech and hearing center a t  the 

Medical College.

Q Let me pin th is  down.

I f  I were a parent of a Negro deaf child in 

Birmingham, and I was referred by a center over here,  

and l e t ' s  say he was about to enter the f i r s t  grade 

or something like that;  I would drive over one day 

with him, over to the in s t i tu te ?

A Right.

Q And f i l l  out the forms?

A R i  gh t .

q And he would be assigned to the State School for

the Deaf?

A Not at that point.

I f  they had never been to a speech and hearing  

c l i n i c  a t  the University of Alabama, Dr. Roach and 

them over there operate t h a t ; we would give that child  

a t e s t ,  l e t ' s  say, next April  or March we w i l l  want



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th is  child  over here so that a psychologist can take a 

look* some of the classroom teachers can take a look,  

we want yon to l iv e  in with your c h ild ,  separate from 

your c h ild ,  and we want you to know, we are going t o - -  

want to make some determinations, because we are con­

cerned with f in d ing out i f  the child is  educable, a n d  

the amount of loss of hearing. We are concerned about 

what happened to that child up to the time they are 

old enough to come to the school.

Q, You would administer a battery  of te s ts  to find

out what achievement l e v e l  a child  is  operating at?

A No; you could not do that with a young c h il d ,  a

deaf c h i ld ,  but psychologists and teachers have ways 

©f finding out, and with my conferences with the 

parents and the c h ild ,  w© w i l l  determine whether we 

w i l l  take the c h ild .  We usually  take them on a t r i a l  

b a s is ,  and t a l l  them i t  looks to us like th is  child  

could make normal progress edu cationally.

Q Does that imply there are soma children who 

you w i l l  r e je c t  saying that the school would do them 

no good?

A That’ s right.

Q How would that occur? Under what circumstances



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would you refuge to take a deaf or blind child?

A Wells i t  is  obvious, you could observe theta 

three or four days with th e ir  parents, and i t  is obviou 

whether they are an id i o t  or moron, i t  is obvious; i f  

they can’ t  feed themselves, i f  they are not t o i l e t  

trained, i f  a parent has to do everything fo r  that  

c h i l d ,  you know i t  wouldn’ t be a normal development, 

awl you have to work with lo c a l  agents to work with  

your family to get them to get this  child  so i t  can 

be educated.

1 sat  with a family yesterday afternoon f o r  an 

hour, took th e ir  l i t t l e  boy home, been here eigh t  

weeks, they know the problem and we know i t ;  i t  is  

an  organic s i tu a tio n .  We are not doctors, and neither  

•  re the parents, b u t  we have plans through the medical  

center a t  Birmingham where they w i l l  be able to help 

us and the parents get that l i t t l e  boy where he can 

come back to school. We have that going on a l l  of the 

time,

Q But normally the child would come i f  he is up

to a c e rta in  le v e l  in terms ©f development, and he is  

not a moron or i d i o t ,  and he is able to accept learni  

you w i l l  accept him?



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A The technique, I have tried to explain to you t  

technique of admission, you safeguard the f a a i l y  and 

school fro® g e tt in g  too many in,  and then you experie  

d i f f i c u l t y  when they c a n 't  be educated, in g e tt in g  

them out.

We have a very carefu l  screening program,
■>

We are t o ld ,  other than Pennsylvania, three years 

ago, and w@ started th is  process, and we were told  

we were one of the f i r s t  s t a t e s .

Now, I notice this past year nearly every state  

is  follow ing this same procedure we do in the ad-  

mission of children. You don't drive around on the 

campus like  they used to.

Q You are saying you go through a process of

interviewing and narrowing down?

A  That's  r igh t.  And we get a l l  of the records

we can get from medical and State Crippled Children's  

S e rvices,  and everyone else  we can to help us make 

a determination.

Q Up to now, those children that you have decided

you can accept and help in terms of race, they have 

b e e n  assigned to  the State School or to the Alabama 

D e a f  School, depending on the race of the children?



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A  M r .  B r a d l e y ,  i n  l o o k i n g  o v e r ,  h e  s a i d  h e  

w a n t e d  t o  s p e n d  a  d a y  l o o k i n g  o v e r  t h e  s i t u a t i o n ,  a n d  

h e  m i g h t  t e l l  y o u  t h e  a n s w e r  t o  t h a t .

H e  a s k e d  o n e  q u e s t i o n  o f  e v e r y  c h i l d  h e r e .  Y o u  

d i d n ' t  f i n d ,  i n  a n y  I n s t a n c e ,  w h e r e  a n y b o d y  h a s  e v e r  

a s k s d  t o  b e  a s s i g n e d  t o  a  d i f f e r e n t  s c h o o l .

Q  L e t  m e  p u t  t h e  q u e s t i o n  a n o t h e r  w a y .

^ I s n ' t  i t  t r u e  t h a t  t h e  p e r s o n  u l t i m a t e l y ,  

w h o e v e r  t h e  o f f i c e r  i s ,  i f  y o u  h a v e  m a d e  a  p e r s o n a l  

d e c i s i o n ,  y ® g ,  w e  o u g h t  t o  t a k e  t h i s  c h i l d  f r o m  t h i s  

f a m i l y ,  i s n ' t  i t  t r u e  t h a t  i f  t h a t  c h i l d  i s  a  d e a f  

c h i l d  a n d  i a  a  N e g r o  c h i l d ,  h e  i s  g o i n g  t o  b e  a s s i g n e d  

t o  t h e  A l a b a m a  S t a t e  S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  D e a f ?

A  1  h a v e  w o n d e r e d  w h a t  w o u l d  h a p p e n  i f  o n e  a s k e d

t o  b e  a s s i g n e d  t o  a n o t h e r  s c h o o l ;  w e  h a v e  n e v e r  h a d  

i t .

Q  N o  o n e  h a s  e v e r  r e q u e s t e d  t o  b e  a s s i g n e d  d i f ­

f e r e n t l y ?

A  N o ,  s i r .

Q  (BY MR.  N E W T O N : )  I f  a  c h i l d  i s  w h i t e  a n d  i s

a c c e p t e d  b y  t h e  S c h o o l ,  h e  i s  a s s i g n e d  t o  t h e  A l a b a m a  

S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  D e a f ,  i f  h e  i s  a  d e a f  c h i l d ?

A  T h a t 1 a r i g h t .



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Q And, of course, likew ise, you have had no white 

parent to request that the child be assigned to the 

Alabama State  School fo r  the Deaf?

A No.

Q So, as a matter of p o l ic y ,  you have assigned

white deaf children to the Alabama School fo r  the 

Deaf, and Negro deaf children to the A labama State  

School^ fo r  the Deaf, and the same s itu a tio n  with the

blind?

A You have stated i t  e x a c t l y ,  and in my term of

s ix  years, I have ju s t  taken up the same procedure tha 

has always been followed; however, l e t ’ s get th is  

point in there. When we started to building and t r y ­

ing to get ourselves in readiness for  in tegratio n ,  we 

began to think in terms of what would be the best for  

the children* and we have records on that,  of the pro­

posals that have been submitted since the f i r s t  re­

quest from HEW, U. S, Office of Education, you have 

records of a l l  of th at,  Hr. Bradley.

Q (BY MR. WHITE:) This again is something we can

get at  from a document on the table ju st  by reading 

from i t ,  but I would like ju st  t© get th is  into  the 

deposition, the value of the buildings and grounds,

t



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maybe from Insurance reports we talked about, for  

each of the four schools, and the Helen K e lle r  School  

MR. BRADLEY: Could you elaborate on that a l i t t

more.

What do you mean about the evaluation of the

building?

MR. WHITE: How much are they worth on the

insurance report?

MR. BRADLEY: That would b© the only source 1

would know of.

A That is  the only source we know of.

MR. BRADLEY: That would have any sort of 

evaluation on i t .

MR. WHITE: Some report has to show what the

buildings are worth.

MR. BRADLEY: We can furnish the c o st .

MR. WHITE: What the buildings are worth, what

one would get i f  one sold them today, a f a i r  market

value of the buildings and grounds.

MR. BRADLEY: The only source would be the in 

sura nee records.

Q I f  that is  the best source, we would like to

have those.



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Can we look a t  that record and get those f i ­

gures Into the record?

A Yes, s i r ,  we can have copies made on our copyinj 

machine that w i l l  show the value of the building.

MR. NEWTON: And make i t  a part of the deposi­

tio n .

MR. WHITE: Can we a lso  have something that 8hoi 

the date and type of construction?

I suppose most of the buildings are b rick ,  but 

something showing the date and type of construction  

of each building and each of the four s i t e s ,  and 

the Helen K e lle r  School.

MR. BRADLEY: There is some preliminary s t a t e ­

ment on that in the l e a f l e t  there.

MR. WHITE: This information, I suppose can be 

c o l le c te d  from somewhere from the record showing when. 

There are f i f t y  some odd b u ild ing s,  someone should 

know, and a maintenance engineer, or something, 

should know when each building was constructed. We 

would like to have that l i s t  in the record.

MR. BRADLEY: Could you t e l l  him that?

A I f  we could c a l l  in Mr. Patton, he could give

you that information in a reasonable time.



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MR .  WH I T E :  L e t ’s a s k  Mr. P a t t o n  to p r e p a r e  a

list f o r  us.

A W o u l d  y o u  w a n t  h i m  to c o m e  in? He is

w a i t i n g ;  I told h i m  y o u  m i g h t  w a n t  to a s k  f o r  it.

MR. W H I T E :  The same th i n g  w i t h  r e f e r e n c e  t© 

a c r e a g e .  I t h i n k  y o u  i n d i c a t e d  we  w o u l d  be ab l e  to 

g e t  t h a t  f r o m  those d o c u m e n t s ?

A  Y e s ,  1 t h i n k  we c a n  give y o u  p r e t t y  a c c u r a t e  

a c r e a g e  on e a c h  ca m p u s .

MR. BRA D L E Y :  Y o u  w a n t  the farms, too?

MR. W H I T E :  Yes.

A  No s c h o o l  1® lo c a t e d  on the farm, and the new 

s c h o o l  is l o c a t e d  o n  f a r m l a n d .  We h a v e  618 a c r e s  of 

f a r m l a n d .

MR. W H I T E :  I t h i n k  if there is a f a r m  a t  a 

s c h o o l  --

MR. BRA D L E Y :  T h e r e  is none; the f a n s  is 

d i s c o n n e c t e d  f r o m  the o p e r a t i o n  of the s chool. It 

f u r n i s h e s  the food for foe school.

MR. WH I T E :  1 w o u l d  like fo r  it to be s e p a r a t e d  

s o  w e  a r e  not c o n f u s i n g  the f a r m  a c r e a g e  w i t h  the 

a c r e a g e  of the school.

MS. B R ADLEY: Y o u  ar e  just t a l k i n g  a b o u t  the



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c a m p u s ?

MR. W H I T E :  Yes.

Q A l s o ,  w o u l d  Mr. P a t t o n  s u p p l y  us w i t h  s o m e ­

thing, if t h e r e  a r e  records that w i l l  s h o w  this a t  

all, eh® last time th a t  the i n t e r i o r  of the b u i l d i n g s  

w a s  p a i n t e d ?  I f  t h o s e  r ecords a r e  a v a i l a b l e  -- 

A  Yes.

Q. He w o u l d  be a b l e  to s a y  so a n d  so b u i l d i n g  

w a s  c o n s t r u c t e d  s o  an d  so, b r i c k ,  last p a i n t e d  the 

s w a a e r  of * 64, o r  s o m e t h i n g  like that?

A  Y e s .

Q  Now, f o r  e a c h  sc h o o l ,  the n u m b e r  of a c a d e m i c  

t e a c h e r s  a n d  the n u m b e r  of v o c a t i o n a l  t e a c h e r s ?

MR. BRA D L E Y :  Y o u  c a n  d o  that r i g h t  now, c a n ' t

you?

A Yes.

Y o u  w a n t  the band i n s t r u c t o r  u n d e r  v o c a t i o n a l ?

Q Y o u  h a v e  one gym t e a c h e r  a n d  one b a n d  t e a c h e r ?

A Y e s .

Q Le t ' s  s e p a r a t e  that.

MR. NE W T O N :  I g a t h e r  w e  ar e  g o i n g  to be f u r ­

n i s h e d  w i t h  a list of that that we c a n  put in the

r ecord?



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A  Yes.

Q, The next thing is  each teacher a t  each school,  

his race, degree, the c e r t i f i c a t e ,  and the present  

rate of pay.

We have previously established that was going 

to be in a l i s t  form?

A Yes.

Q Art any teachers, vocational or acadetaic, 

being paid less than the minimum scale  prescribed by 

the State of Alabama?

A Mr. Bradley, do you have a minimum scale  i n

Alabama?

A We don! t have one.

Q The State sets  no scale for vocational teacher! 

in terras of hours worked, or anything like  that?

A We have no teacher with a - -  we have no 

teacher drawing less money than the State Salary  

Schedule for  that rank teacher.

Q, This is p re c ise ly  what I was g e tt in g  a t.

There is  a State salary  schedule for  ranks?

A There is  a suggested schedule to Boards of

Education for ranks; they don't have to l iv e  by

that



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Q, A l l  r i g h t *

H R .  B R A D L E Y :  1  d o n ’ t  t h i n k  h e  u n d e r s t a n d s  t h e  

q u e s t i o n .

A  W e  d o n ’ t  h a v e  a n y  t e a c h e r  - -

Q  W h o  i s  g e t t i n g  l e s s  t h a n  t h e  s u g g e s t e d  s c h e ­

d u l e ?

A  T h a t ' s  r i g h t .

M R .  B R A D L E Y :  L e t  m e  a s k  y o u  t h i s :  D o e s  t h e  

S t a t e  D e p a r t m e n t  o f  E d u c a t i o n  h a v e  a  r a n k *  o r  a  

s c h e d u l e s o r  a  s c a l e  f o r  s a l a r i e s  f o r  t e a c h e r s  o f  

d e a f  a n d  b l i n d  i n  A l a b a m a ?

A  N o .

M R .  B R A D L E Y :  W h a t  y o u  a r e  s a y i n g  i s  t h a t  

y o u r  t e a c h e r s  a r e  n o t  p a i d  l e s s  t h a n  w h a t  t h e  p u b l i c  

s c h o o l  t e a c h e r s  a r e  g e t t i n g  f o r  t h e  s a m e  c o m p a r a b l e  

s c a l e ,  s c h e d u l e  o r  r a n k ?

A  O u r  B o a r d  h a s  u s e d  t h a t  a s  a  g u i d e ,  b u t  w e

d o n ’ t  h a v e  t o  d o  i t .

T h e y  h a v e  t o  p a y  t h e m  i n  t h e  B i r m i n g h a m  S c h o o l ,  

I f  t h e y  d i d n ’ t  p a y  t h a t  s c a l e  i n  t h e  B i r m i n g h a m  

S c h o o l s ,  i t  w o u l d  b e  w i t h h e l d  i n  M o n t g o m e r y ,  b u t  w h a t  

1  t o l d  y o u  w a s  w e  h a d  n o  t e a c h e r s - -

q  T h a t  w a s n ’ t  a t  l e a s t  g e t t i n g  t h e  p u b l i c  s c h o o l



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rate?

A A n d  m o s t  of t h e m  are g e t t i n g  m u c h  m o r e .

MR. B R A D L E Y :  But there is n o  r e q u i r e m e n t  

that h a s  to be done.

A T h a t ' s  right.

Q We w i l l  go into this s u b j e c t  a little later, b u  

let m e  a s k  this q u e s t i o n  now.

Is art b e i n g  t a u g h t  at a n y  one of the f o u r  

s c h o o l s ?

A  No, sir; we ha d  a p a r t t i m e  art t e a c h e r  in

the N e g r o  deaf s c h o o l  last year.

Q I n  the N e g r o  d e a f  s c h o o l ?

A  Yes, sir, b u t  we ha v e  b e e n  d i s a p p o i n t e d ;  she

didn* t come back. We tried to  get as m u c h  a r t  w o r k  

w i t h  the tea c h e r s  w h o  h a v e  some s k i l l  t h e m s e l v e s ,  

b u t  she just d i d n * t  come back.

Q, W h a t  w a s  h a r  name?

A  Oh, it was a p e c u l i a r  name that y o u  w i l l  find,

b e c a u s e  she wa s  f r o m  Tokyo. She w a s  a J a p a n e s e  

pe rs on.

Q Sh e  is n ©  l o n g e r  e m p l o y e d  d u r i n g  the 1 9 6 7 - 1 9 6 8

year?

A  She w a s  good and w a s  d o i n g  a m a r v e l o u s  job. I



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wish we had a r t  taught, but we don't have art  taught 

as such in any of our schools.

Q Can we have a l i s t ,  or perhaps you can read the

l i s t  t© us, a l i s t  of the t o t a l  amount of funds 

received from the Federal Government, whether i t  be 

through HEW or any other agency, received during each 

of the la s t  f iv e  years by the In s t i tu te ?

A Yes, s i r ,  we can give you that.

ME. WHITE: Off the record.

(Off the record discussion.)

Q, Mr. Bradley, would you sta te  again for  the

b e n e fit  of the record, whether there are any Negro 

students who l iv e  at the Negro School fo r  the deaf or 

blind who are presently in attendance at vocational  

courses at the white blind or deaf school?

A There are none; I can answer i t  now, but I

couldn't  awhile ago.

M E .  NEWTON: What about vice-versa?

A No, we have ruled out the boys that were in

laundry; we have ruled them o u t, because they are not 

enrolled here in the academic school.

q Are Negro children who - -  are any Negro children

attending a vocational course at  that Adult Depart-



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raent, e v e n  t h o u g h  that same c o u r s e  m i g h t  be o f f e r e d  

a t  the w h i t e  deaf s c h o o l  or w h i t e  b l i n d  s c h o o l ?

A  U p  u n t i l  this year, S e p t e m b e r  1st, we  u s e d  the

s c h o o l s  f o r  c e r t a i n  types of r e l a t e d  i n s t r u c t i o n ,  a n d 

the a d u l t  d e p a r t m e n t  has their s c h o o l ,  b u t  now no  one 

e n r o l l e d  in the s c h o o l  is in p a r t t i m e  t r a i n i n g  in the 

a d u l t  d e p a r t m e n t  f r o m  a n y  s chool.

Q, A r e  there some c h i l d r e n  w h o  live in the d o r m s  

in the N e g r o  De a f  S c h o o l  and N e g r o  B l i n d  S c h o o l ,  but 

go to  c l a s s e s  o n l y  in the A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t ?

A  No.

Q So c h i l d r e n  w h o  are e n r o l l e d  at the I n s t i t u t i o n

a n d  live in the d o r m i t o r i e s ,  if t h e y  go to s c h o o l  at 

all, t h e y  o n l y  go to sc h o o l s  on c a m p u s ,  e i t h e r  

v o c a t i o n a l  c o u r s e s  there, or a c a d e m i c  c o u r s e s  there?

A  T h a t ' s  right.

Q We h a v e  c o v e r e d  the m a t t e r  of F e d e r a l  funds

d u r i n g  the last five years. We w i l l  get a list of 

those?

A  1 s t a r t e d  to tell y o u  up u n t i l  this y e a r  w e  had

f o u r  v o c a t i o n a l  r e i m b u r s e d  t e a c h e r  u n i t s  in v o c a t i o n a l  

e d u c a t i o n  fr o m  M o n t g o m e r y  f r o m  the S t a t e  D e p a r t m e n t .  

T h i s  y e a r  the s c h o o l  has two, and the A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t



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t o o k  o v e r  the o t h e r  two; w e  c a n  get y o u  the a m o u n t  of 

m o n e y  we get f r o m  the -- there a g a i n ,  w h e t h e r  t h a t  

is F e d e r a l  m o n e y  o r  S t a t e  m o n e y ,  th e y  allocate th a t  out 

of M o n t g o m e r y .  U n d e r  v o c a t i o n a l  e d u c a t i o n ,  p a r t  is 

F e d e r a l  a n d  p a r t  is St a t e ;  I w o u l d n ' t  k n o w  h o w  m u c h .

MR. B R A D L E Y :  1 t h i n k  y o u  o u g h t  to a s k  h i m  

w h e t h e r  he gets a n y  F e d e r a l  F u n d s  d i r e c t l y ,  o r  

t h r o u g h  the S t a t e  D e p a r t m e n t .

q  D o  y o u  get a n y  F e d e r a l  F u n d s  d i r e c t l y  fr o m  the

F e d e r a l  G o v e r n m e n t ,  o r  does it c o m e  f r o m  a l l o c a t i o n  

f r o ®  the S t a t e  D e p a r t m e n t  of E d u c a t i o n ?

A  S o m e t i m e s  we  get some d i r e c t l y ,  T i t l e  1 m o n e y .

Q W o u l d  you, on the list y o u  are g o i n g  to s u p p l y

us, s h o w  the a m o u n t  r e c e i v e d  fr o m  the F e d e r a l  G o v e r n ­

m e n t ?

A I c a n  tell y o u  the a m o u n t  r e c e i v e d  f o r  the last

two years, a n d  the a m o u n t  b u d g e t e d  this year, 

q  W h y  d o n ' t  we get those, the a m o u n t  r e c e i v e d

d i r e c t l y  f r o m  the F e d e r a l  G o v e r n m e n t  last year?

A  Yes.

t

W i l l  y o u  t e l l  me ,  w o u l d  that in c l u d e  -- y o u  

see, y o u  run in t o  some c o m p l i c a t i o n s  in s c h o o l s  like 

this t h a t  y o u  w o u l d n ’t in a p u b l i c  s chool. W o u l d  tha



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Include our p r i n t i n g  house a l l o c a t i o n  per stu d en t,

Q Is the p r i n t i n g  house f o r  t h e  blind  a  Federal

thing?

A Yes; i t  is  a c h i l d  of the Congress.

Q Yes, th a t  would include t h a t ,  any money a t  a l l  re

caived  d i r e c t l y  from the Federal Government?

A 1 don’ t  receive any money there; they t e l l  me

you had so many c h ild r e n ,  you have - -  they give  us 

what our a l l o c a t i o n  i s ,  and we place orders from them 

from t h e i r  catalogue p r i c e ,  and we never receive a 

penny of money.

MR. BRADLEY: But you have an amount of money 

you can buy up to?

A Yes.

q That is  what I am g e t t i n g  at?

A A l l  r i g h t .

MR. BRADLEY: Do you have that information  

a v a i l a b l e  now, or would you have to g e t  i t ?

A 1 w i l l  get  i t  r ig h t  a f t e r  noon.

q That w i l l  be furnished in a l i s t ,  and i t  ought to  

be f o r  the l a s t  f i v e  y e a r s ,  and i t  should include  

money received d i r e c t l y ,  and any Federal money a l l o ­

cated through the State  Department.



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Let's leave it to a n y  F e d e r a l  m o n e y  y o u  ca n  

i d e n t i f y  as such, w i l l  be listed f o r  e a c h  of the last 

f ive yea rs *

A A l l  right.

Q Now, the next q u e s t i o n  is the q u e s t i o n  of a l l o ­

c a t i o n  of e x p e n s e s  of the ins t i t u t e .

We  h a v e  said th a t  some ©f these r ecords s h o w e d  

h o w  m u c h  m o n e y  the i n s t i t u t e  has sp e n t  in terms of 

t e a c h e r ' s  s a l a r i e s  and m a i n t e n a n c e .  We w o u l d  need a 

list of those e x p e n s e s  a l l o c a t e d  by s c h o o l ,  S t a t e  

S c h o o l  f o r  the D e a f , S c h o o l  f o r  the D e a f , S t a t e  S c h o o l  

f o r  the Bl i n d ,  S c h o o l  f o r  the Blind, a n d  H e l e n  Keller.

If H e l e n  K e l l e r  c o m p l i c a t e s  the p r o b l e m , we c a n  

om i t  t h o s e , but we need to  h a v e  a n  e x p e n s e  of the 

i n s t i t u t e  a l l o c a t e d  b y  d i v i s i o n .

N o w , Mr. G e n t r y ,  is there a l i b r a r y  at e a c h  

s c h o o l ?

A  T h e  re is .

Q W o u l d  you be able to a p p r o x i m a t e  f o r  us the 

n u m b e r  of bo o k s  in e a c h  library? I a m  t a I k i n g  a b o u t  

now the f o u r  s c h o o l s  A-t H e l e n  K e l l e r ?

A  No, sir; I w o u l d  h a v e  to get that f r o m  e a c h

p r i n c i p a 1. T h e y  k n o w  h o w  m a n y  bo o k s  th e y  h a v e . Th e r e



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again part of these books would be b r a i l l e ,  and part  

large ty p e,  and part would be what we c a l l  —  they  

would be on f i lm .

Q Is there an inventory of books each p r i n c i p a l  

maintains?

A Yes, s i r ,  they w i l l  know.

Q So, can we have a copy of each inventory from

each school th at  would in d ic a te  the number of books 

a t  each l i b r a r y  a t  each school?

A Yes, s i r .

Q. Is  there a f u l l  time l i b r a r i a n  there at each

school?

A Ho, s i r .

The f u l l  time l i b r a r i a n  a t  th is  school - -

Q At the White Deaf School?

A And the Alabama School f o r  the Blind; there are  

parttime l ib r a r ia n s  in the other sch o o ls.

Q In the White Blind School and White Deaf School

there a r e  f u l l  time l i b r a r i a n s ,  and the Negro Deaf 

and Negro Blind, there are part time l ib r a r ia n s ?

A Y es.

Q Would you s t a t e  fo r  us how many teaching c l a s s ­

rooms , as apart from v o c a tio n a l  shops, classrooms where



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a c a d e m i c  s u b j e c t s  a  i r e  t a u g h t  a t  e a c h  o f  t h e  f o u r  

s c h o o l s ?

A  Y o u  w a n t  t h e m  - ~

Q  L e t  r a e  s t a t e  i t  t o t a l l y .

H o w  m a n y  c l a s s r o o m s  t h e r e  a r e ,  a n d  t h e n  w h e t h e r  

a n y  c l a s s e s  a r e  t a u g h t  o u t s i d e  t h e  c l a s s r o o m s .

L e t ' s  b e g i n  w i t h  h o w  m a n y  a c t u a l  c l a s s r o o m s  t h e r e  

a r e  i n  s c h o o l ?

A  T e a c h i n g  c l a s s r o o m s  i n  a l l  f o u r  s c h o o l s  a n d

c l a s s e s  t a u g h t  o u t s i d e ?

Q  H o w  m a n y  c l a s s e s  a r e  t a u g h t  i n  r o o m s  o t h e r  t h a n

c l a s s r o o m s ?

A  W h a t  d o  y o u  m e a n  t h e r e ,  i n  c o n n e c t i o n  w i t h  t h e  

b l i n d ,  f o r  e x a m p l e ,  i f  t h e y  h a v e  a  c l a s s  o u t  i n  t h e  g y n  

f o r  m a s s e u r s ,  t h a t  w o u l d  b e  s e p a r a t e ?

Q. N o ,  I  m e a n  a c a d e m i c  c l a s s r o o m s ,  I  a m  n o t  t a  l k i n g  

a b o u t  v o c a t i o n a l ,  w h e t h e r  a n y  E n g l i s h  C l a s s e s  a r e  

c o n d u c t e d  i n  t h e  g y m ?

A  I  w i l l  h a v e  t o  —

Q  Y o u  w a n t  t o  m a k e  t h a t  i n  a  l i s t ?

A  1  c a n  g e t  t h a t  f o r m .

Q  L e t  m e  p o i n t  o u t  w h y  w e  a r e  a s k i n g  t h i s .  I t

h a s  b e e n  o u r  i n f o r m a t i o n ,  h e a r s a y ,  I  s u p p o s e ,  t h e r e



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a r e  f o u r  c l a s s e s  b e i n g  c o n d u c t e d  in the a u d i t o r i u m  of 

the N e g r o  D e a f  Sc h o o l ?

A Y e s , 1 w i s h  y o u  c o u l d  see the s i x  new b e a u t i f u l

c l a s s r o o m s  there; we h a d  to h a v e  th e m  s o m e w h e r e ;  e n ­

r o l l m e n t  up  so fast, w e  h a v e  s i x  of the p r e t t i e s t  

c l a s s r o o m s  o n  a n y b o d y ’s c a m p u s ,  bu t  w h e n  y o u  got that 

r eport, it w a s  c i r c u l a t e d  p r e t t y  g e n e r a l l y  last year, 

that was true, b e c a u s e  o u r  p o p u l a t i o n  w e n t  up there, 

f o r t y  c h i l d r e n  o v e r n i g h t ,  and we h a d  to s t r u g g l e  to 

take c a r e  of them.

HR. BRADLEY: Is that c o n d i t i o n  in e x i s t e n c e

now?

A  T h a t  isn't in e x i s t e n c e  now.

MR. BRADLEY: I n  this s c h o o l  h e r e ,  none b e i n g  

t a u g h t  in the a u d i t o r i u m ?

A  No.

Q A l l  c l a s s e s  at  that s c h o o l  are b e i n g  t a u g h t  in

the r e g u l a r  c l a s s r o o m s ?

A  Yes.

Q W h e n  d i d  those ne w  c l a s s r o o m s  -- w h e n  did those

new c l a s s e s  open, o r  those c l a s s r o o m s  open?

A T h e  last one of t h e m  opened this fall.

Q This fa l l  term?



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A Yes * s i r .

Qt Are they mobile classrooms?

A We have s i x  new mobile classrooms. They are

not the type you see on some school campuses; you 

would have to look a t  them. They are two pulled t o ­

gether and partitioned in the middle; they are a l l  

a i r  conditioned. They are the most ideal classrooms 

fo r  small c la s s e s ,  so educational people over the 

State s a y , they are so much b e tte r  than the former 

classrooms that were b u i l t .

Q, How many mobile classrooms are there at  the

White Deaf School?

A None.

Q, How many at  the White Blind School?

A One.

Q Are there any a t  the Negro blind?

A Two a t  each place, two at the White Blind and

two a t  the colored blind.

q A n d  there are s ix  at the Negro D e a f  a n d  none at

the White Deaf?

A That's  right.

q Now, in reference to the grades offered, do a l l

schools o f f e r  grades one through twelve?



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A  A t  p r e s e n t  yes, e x c e p t  w e  d o n ' t  h a v e  a n y b o d y  in

the S t a t e  S c h o o l  f o r  the Deaf w h o  c a n  q u a l i f y ,  I m e a n

that h a s  re a c h e d  that a t t a i n a b l e  grade.

Q Let m e  a s k  the q u e s t i o n  a n o t h e r  way.

T h e r e  are s t u d e n t s  now at the W h i t e  Deaf, 

a n d  W h i t e  Blind, and N e g r o  B l i n d  w h o  are in c l a s s e s  

a t  a n  8 t h r o u g h  12 level?

A The H i g h  S c h o o l  level.

Q T h e r e  are none in the Ne g r o  deaf?

A  T h a t ' s  right.

Q  W o u l d  y o u  e s t i m a t e  f o r  m e  h o w  m a n y  at the

w h i t e  d e a f  of the 315 s t u d e n t s  a t  the W h i t e  Deaf, 

h o w  m a n y  of those are in the 8th t h r o u g h  12th grade 

level, Just roughly?

A  W e l l ,  we d o n ' t  c l a s s i f y  t h e m  that w a y  in the 

s c h o o l  f o r  the deaf. We c l a s s i f y  them e l e m e n t a r y ,  

m i d d l e  s c h o o l  and a d v a n c e d .  

q H o w  m a n y  are in the a d v a n c e d  sc h o o l ?

A I n  the a d v a n c e d  s c h o o l  there are a p p r o x i m a t e l y

r o u g h l y  a round f i f t y  w h o  h a v e  got out of the u p p e r  

i n t e r m e d i a t e  in t o  the a d v a n c e d  school. 

q  By  a d v a n c e d ,  y o u  m e a n  8 t h r o u g h  12?

A Y e s .



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I n  y o u r  I n t e r m e d i a t e  l e v e l ,  y o u  w o u l d  h a v e  

t h e m  i n  u d n e r  t h e  s e v e n t h  g r a d e ,  b u t  w e  h a v e  a b o u t  

1 4 1 ,  I  b e l i e v e  i t  i s ,  a b o u t  1 4 0  i n t e r m e d i a t e s .

Q, A l l  r i g h t .

A  A n d  t h e  r e s t  o f  t h e m  a r e  e l e m e n t a r y  g r a d e s ,  i n

t h e  e l e m e n t a r y  s c h o o l ,  a n d  w e  h a v e  t o  t r a n s f e r  t h e m  

o u t  o f  t h e  e l e m e n t a r y .

I n  t h e  l o w  i n t e r m e d i a t e s  t h e r e  a r e  a c t u a l l y  

s o m e  e l e m e n t a r y  g r a d e  l e v e l s  a s  f a r  a s  c o m p a r i n g  i t  

w i t h  t h e  p u b l i c  s c h o o l s .

q  I  t h i n k  y o u r  g r a d e  s t r u c t u r e  i s  4 - 4 - 4 ,  i s  t h a t

a p p r o x i r a a t e 1 y  c o r r e c t ?

A  W e l l ,  I  w o u l d n ’ t  k n o w  t h a t ,  1  c o u l d  g e t  y o u  i n  

f i v e  m i n u t e s  t i m e  t h e  e x a c t  n u m b e r  i n  e l e m e n t a r y ,  

l o w  i n t e r m e d i a t e ,  a n d  u p p e r  i n t e r m e d i a t e  a n d  a d ­

v a n c e d .  1  b e l i e v e  I  c a n  g i v e  y o u  t h a t  n o w .

N o w ,  y o u  a s k e d  f o r  t h i s ,  s c h o o l  f o r  t h e  d e a f ,  

f o r t y ,  S t a t e  S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  D e a f ,  1 8 ,  S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  

B l i n d ,  s i x t e e n ,  S t a t e  S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  B l i n d  e i g h t ,  

m a k i n g  a  t o t a l  o f  8 2 .

P h y s i c a l  E d ,  1 3 ,  M u s i c ,  4 ,  V o c a t i o n a l  1 9 ,  

t o t a l  , 1 1 8 .  I s  t h a t  w h a t  y o u  w a n t ?

Q Y e s .



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A  A t  t h e  W h i t e  D e a f  t h e r e  i s  1 4 4  p r i m a r y ,  1 1 8  

i n t e r m e d i a t e ,  a n d  5 3  a d v a n c e d .

W e  w i l l  g e t  i t  f o r  t h e  o t h e r  s c h o o l s .

Q  N o w ,  t h e r e  a r e  n o  N e g r o e s  i n  t h e  N e g r o  D e a f

S c h o o l  o p e r a t i n g  a t  t h e  a d v a n c e d  l e v e l ?

A  T h a t ' s  r i g h t ,  n o  c h i l d r e n .

Q  W o u l d  y o u  s p e c u l a t e  a s  t o  w h y  t h a t  i s ,  t h a t

w h e r e a s  i n  t h e  w h i t e  s c h o o l s  f i f t y  a r e ?

A  Y e s .

W e  d e f i n i t e l y  k n o w  w h y  t h a t  i s  t r u e .  T h e  t y p e - -  

t h e  g r a d i n g  w a s  s u c h  a t  t h a t  p a r t i c u l a r  s c h o o l  t h a t  

t h e y  r e a c h e d  t h e  a g e  o f  1 8 ,  1 9  a n d  2 0 ,  b e f o r e  t h e y  

r e a c h e d  t h e  g r a d e  o f  n i n e ,  a n d  t w e n t y ,  a n d  m o s t  o f  

t h o s e  s t u d e n t s ,  f o r  e x a m p l e ,  o u r  l a s t  g r a d u a t i n g  

c l a s s  h a d  f o u r t e e n  o r  f i f t e e n ,  a n d  t h o s e  t o o k  v o c a ­

t i o n a l  w o r k ,  a n d  t h e r e  w a s  s u c h  a  d e m a n d ,  a n d  t h e y  

f o u n d  e m p l o y m e n t  a n d  d i d n ' t  r e t u r n  t o  s c h o o l  u n t i l  

t h e y  w e r e  2 1  y e a r s  o f  a g e .

S o m e  o f  t h e ®  w e n t  t o  t h e  A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t ,  a n d  

s o m e  o f  t h e m  w e n t  o u t  u n d e r  O f f i c e s  o f  o u r  R e h a b i l i t a ­

t i o n  a n d  o t h e r  t r a i n i n g ,  a n d  s o m e  o f  t h e m  w e n t  t o  

o t h e r  l o c a t i o n s .

M r .  S t r o n g ,  t h e  p r i n c i p a l ,  t o l d  m e ,  a n d  i f  h e



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were her® under oath, I think he would say the satae 

thing, fo r  a l l  intent and purposes, he is  operating  

an elementary school.

Q 1 am interested in why this is  the case.

Why weren't Negroes at the Deaf School pro­

gressed at  the same rate in acquiring a normal high 

school education, as much as that can be obtained by 

a deaf persons, as persons at  the White School?

A They are. We have had larger graduating c lasses

in that school than we have a t  th is  school.

Q, But they are not graduating a t  the advanced

l e v ®  1 ?

A They have, or they couldn't graduate, i f  they

did. I t  ju st  so happens you are in a cycle  now we 

have none.

HE. BRADLEY: Have you ever had any?

Q This is  my next question.

Would you t e l l  us for each of the l a s t  f iv e  

years how many students a t  each of the four schools

graduated?

A Either with a vocational or academic diploma?

Q With an academic is the f i r s t  question, meaning

by th a t,  having completed the advanced le v e l  to your



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s a t i s f a c t i o n ?

A  A  1 1  r i g h t .

Q, T h e n  f o r  e a c h  o f  t h e  f o u r  s c h o o l s ,  h o w  m a n y  

g r a d u a t e d  w i t h  y o u r  v o c a t i o n a l  d i p l o m a  f o r  e a c h  o f

t h e  f i v e  y e a r s ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r ,  w e  c o u l d  g e t  y o u  t h a t  f r o m  t h e  M i n u t e s  

o f  t h e  A n n u a l  R e p o r t s  o f  t h e  p r i n c i p a l s ,  b u t  i t  w o u l d  

b e  p r o b a b l y  s i m p l e r  f o r  h e r  t o  c a l l  t h e m  a n d  g e t  t h e m .

M R .  N E W T O N :  A n d  y o u  w i l l  f u r n i s h  u s  w i t h  a  

l i s t  o f  t h e m ?

M R .  B R A D L E Y :  Y e s ,  s i r .

Q  W o u l d  y o u  s a y ,  M r .  G e n t r y ,  w h y  i s  i t  t r u e  t h a t

t h e r e  a r e  f i f t y  s t u d e n t s  i n  t h e  W h i t e  D e a f  S c h o o l  

t h a t  a r e  o p e r a t i n g  i n  a n  a c a d e m i c  —  t h a t  a r e  a t t e n d ­

i n g  a c a d e m i c  c o u r s e s  a t  t h e  a d v a n c e d  l e v e l  a n d  w i l l  

a t  s o m e  p o i n t  g r a d u a t e  w i t h  a n  a c a d e m i c  h i g h  s c h o o l  

d i p l o m a ?

A  N o ,  s i r ,  o r  a  v o c a t i o n a l  d i p l o m a .

Q  A r e  t h e  v o c a t i o n a l  c o u r s e s  s t r u c t u r e d  i n  t h e

s a m e  w a y ,  a d v a n c e d ,  i n t e r m e d i a t e  a n d  p r i m a r y ?

A  N o ,  s i r ,

Q  T h a t  i s  w h y  I  a m  c o n f u s e d .

A r e  t h e r e  f i f t y  i n  a c a d e m i c  o r  v o c a t i o n a l ?



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A E v e r y o n e  of those 51 are t a k i n g  d o u b l e  v o c a t i o n s

p e r i o d s ;  a n d  some of th e m  take two d o u b l e ,  a n d  they  

a l s o  t a k e  a c a d e m i c  c o urses.

Q  A n d  t h e y  w i l l  o b t a i n  a n  a c a d e m i c  h i g h  s c h o o l

d i p l o m a  w i t h  s o m e  v o c a t i o n a l  h o u r s  d u r i n g  t h o s e  y e a r s ?

A  N o ,  s i r .  R e c o r d s  t h r o u g h  t h e  y e a r s  s h o w  t h a t

l e s s  t h a n  f i f t y  p e r c e n t  o f  t h e t a  w i l l  o b t a i n  a n  a c a d e m i c  

d i p l o m a  t h a t  w i l l  e n a b l e  t h e m  t o  g o  o r  b e  c l a s s i f i e d  

w i t h  t h e  s a m e  a m o u n t  o f  e d u c a t i o n  t h a t  a n y  o t h e r  h i g h  

s c h o o l  b o y  o r  g i r l  w o u l d  h a v e ,  h i t  I  w o u l d  s a y  i t  w o u l d  

b e  r e a s o n a b l e  t o  s a y  a b o u t  f i f t y  p e r c e n t  o f  t h e m  w i l l  

h a v e  a t t e m p t e d  a v o c a t i o n a l  s c h o o l  s a t i s f a c t o r y  t o  

w h e r e  t h e y  c a n  - -  a n d  w e  h a v e  c e r t a i n  standards f o r  

e a c h  w h e r e  t h e y  c a n  o p e r a t e  a n d  w h e r e  th e y  c a n  g e t  a  

v o c a t i o n a l  c e r t i f i c a t e .

HR. NEWTON: 1 t h i n k  to a n s w e r  that q u e s t i o n ,  

m a n y  of y o u r  pub 1 ic sch o o l s  d o  t h i s . At the time this 

c h i l d  is g o i n g  to g r a d u a t e  o r  leave this s c h o o l ,  b e ­

fore he g r a duates, the p r i n c i p a l  and w h o e v e r  el s e  

i n c o - o p e r a t i o n  w i t h  him, d e c i d e s  b a s e d  on w h a t  this 

c h i l d  has d o n e  in the l a t t e r  years -- in  the last 

f o u r  years, w h e t h e r  this s c h o o l  w i l l  a w a r d  h i m  a v o ­

c a t i o n a l  d e g r e e  o r  a n  a c a d e m i c  d e g r e e ?



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A  T h a t  i s  d e c i d e d  t w o  y e a r s  b e f o r e  h e  r e a c h e s

h e r e ,  a n d  t h e n  t h e y  w i l l  p u t  h i m  i n  a  d o u b l e  v o c a ­

t i o n a l ,  i f  y o u  w a n t  t o  p r e s s  h a r d .

Q  How m a n y  o f  t h e  white d e a f  students d u r i n g  t h e

1 9 6 7 - 1 9 6 8  y e a r ,  a r e  g e a r e d  towards the a c a d e m i c  d i ­

p l o m a  a n d  w i l l ,  i f  t h e y  d o n *  t  f l u n k  out b y  l o w  g r a d e s ,  

o r  w h a t e v e r ,  o b t a i n  a n  a c a d e m i c  degree n e x t  y e a r ?

A  T h a t  w o u l d  h a v e  t o  b e  a n  e s t i m a t e  fcy m e  o r  M r s .

R i s e r ,  t h e  p r i n c i p a l ,  o r  M r .  P a t t o n ,  t h e  v o c a t i o n a l  

d i r e c t o r .

T h e y  f o l l o w  t h o s e  s t u d e n t s  f r o m  y e a r  t o  y e a r ,  

a n d  1  d o u b t  i f  a n y  o f  u s  c o u l d  p r e d i c t  t h a t  t o  a n y  

d e g r e e  o f  c e r t a i n t y  a t  t h i s  p o i n t .

q , H o w  m a n y  s t u d e n t s  i n  t h e  W h i t e  S c h o o l  a r e  t a k i q *  

a c a d e m i c  c o u r s e s  n o w  a n d  above the 8 t h  Grade l e v e l  o r  

a b o v e ?

T h a t  i s  * 5 1 ,  l s n s t  i t ?

A  N o ,  s i r .  W e  m a y  h a v e  s o m e  o p e r a t i n g  a c a d e m i c a l ]

a t  t h e  s e v e n t h  g r a d e  l e v e l  i n  t h e  a d v a n c e d  s c h o o l ,  

y e t  t h e y  w o u l d  b e  c l a s s i f i e d  i n  t h e  a d v a n c e d ,  b e c a u s e  

o f  t h e i r  c o m b i n e d  v o c a t i o n a l  a n d  s u b j e c t  m a t t e r  f i e l d .  

Q  W i t h  t h a t ,  t h e r e  a r e  n o  N e g r o e s  i n  t h e  D e a f

S c h o o l  c l a s s i f i e d  a s  - -  a t  t h e  a d v a n c e d  l e v e l ?



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A  N o n e  t h i s  y e a r .

Q  N o n e  w i t h  t h e  c o m b i n a t i o n ?

A  N o ,  s i r .

Q  W e r e  t h e r e  a n y  l a s t  y e a r  t h a t  w e r e  c l a s s i f i e d  a t

t h e  a d v a n c e d  l e v e l ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r ,  w e  h a d  s e v e r a l  t h a t  g r a d u a t e d .

Q, A t  t h e  N e g r o  D e a f  S c h o o l ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r .

W e  w i l l  g i v e  y o u  t h e  n u m b e r ,  e x a c t  g r a d u a t i n g

f o r  t h e  l a s t  f i v e  y e a r s .

Q  1  t h o u g h t  y o u  i n d i c a t e d  t h e r e  w a s  a  c y c l e  t h a t

d i s  t r u b e d  y o u ?

M E .  B R A D L E Y ’ : N o t  g r a d u a t e s ,  b u t  n o n e  i n  t h e  

a d v a n c e d  s c h o o l  t h i s  y e a r .

M R ,  W H I T E :  1  t h o u g h t  y o u  s a i d  c y c l e .

M R .  B R A D L E Y :  H e  u s e d  t h e  t e r m  c y c l e ,  b u t  h e  

m e a n t  t o  s a y  - -

M R .  W H I T E :  I  t h i n k  w e  w i l l  w o r k  w i t h  t h e  f i g u r e s  

w e  g e t .

Q  W h a t  w o u l d  h a p p e n  - -  l e t ' s  s u p p o s e  t h e r e  w a s

o n e  c h i l d  i n  t h e  N e g r o  D e a f  S c h o o l  w h o  c o u l d  p e r f o r m  

a t  t h e  a g e  o f  - -  a t  t h e  e i g h t  t h r o u g h  t w e l v e  l e v e l .

I  t a k e  i t  n o w  t h e r e  a r e  n o  t e a c h e r s  o v e r  t h e r e  t e a c h



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a t  t h a t  l e v e l ,  s i n c e  t h e r e  a r e  n o  p u p i l s  t o  t e a c h ?

A  T h a t ' s  r i g h t ,

Q  W o u l d  y o u  s e n d  a  t e a c h e r  o v e r  t h e r e ,  o r  w o u l d  

y o u  j u s t  t a k e  t h a t  i n d i v i d u a l  p e r s o n  o v e r  t o  t h e  

W h i t e  D e a f  S c h o o l  s o  i t  c o u l d  a t t e n d  s c h o o l  w i t h  

o t h e r s  b e i n g  t a u g h t  a t  t h a t  l e v e l ,  o r  w h a t  w o u l d  y o u

d o ?

A  T h a t  p o i n t  h a s  d i s t u r b e d  m e  i n  t h e  l a s t  t h r e e

© r  f o u r  y e a r s  | I  r e c o g n i z e ,  h a v i n g  c o m e  f r o m  t h e  f i e l d  

o f  P u b l i c  E d u c a t i o n  a s  t e a c h e r  a n d  p r i n c i p a l  a n d  

s u p e r i n t e n d e n t ,  a n d  w o r k i n g  w i t h  s c h o o l s  a l l  o v e r  t h e  

S t a t e  w i t h  t h e  S t a t e  D e p a r t m e n t  o f  E d u c a t i o n ,  t h e r e  

w a s  n o  r h y m e  o r  r e a s o n  h e r e  w h y  w e  c o u l d  j u s t i f y  t w o  

h i g h  s c h o o l s  f o r  t h e  w h i t e  d e a f  a n d  t w o  f o r  t h e  N e g r o e >

Y o u  c a n ' t  d o  t h a t ,  1  h a v e  t o l d  m y  B o a r d  t h a t ,  a n d  I

h a v e  p u t  i t  i n  t h e  r e c o r d  t o  H E W  t h a t  t h a t  w o u l d  b e  

t h e  p r o p o s a l ,  t o  h a v e  o n e  g o o d  s t a n d a r d  h i g h  s c h o o l

f o r  t h e  d e a f  a n d  o n e  g o o d  s t a n d a r d  h i g h  s c h o o l  f o r

t h e  b l i n d ;  t h e y  h a v e n ' t  t o l d  m e  y e s  o r  n o ;  t h a t  i s  p a  

o f  o u r  w h o l e  p l a n  o f  i n t e g r a t i o n .

M R .  N E W T O N : R i g h t  n o w  y o u r  b o a r d  w o u l d n ' t  l e t

y o u  d o  t h a t ?

A  I  d i d n ' t  s a y  t h a t ,  n o ,  s i r .  T h e y  t o l d  m e  t o



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wait on a report from HEW, from the Committee that 

v i s i t e d  us, which we had to write them two or three 

l e t t e r s  to get them to v i s i t ,  t e l l  us what we should

do.

This is  a proposal, and, again, I couldn't  

l iv e  with myself as a man that has spent fo r t y  some 

odd years in the f i e l d  of education and t e l l  you that  

the State of Alabama ought to maintain two high 

schools, so-so high schools.

Q, So what you are r e a l ly  saying you recognize i t

because the State of Alabama to maintain two separate 

I n s titu tio n s  - -

A Ho, I said two high schools. I don't  know in

the third grade, you have so many children in the 

third grade that w i l l  cost you the same regardless of 

where they are located.

Q But you think i t  would be more fe a s ib le  to have

one high school, and that is what you have told your 

board?

A Just as we are doing in v o c a tio n a l .  I t  is

more fe a s ib le  to have one v o c a tio n a l  sch o ol,  and 

that is  what we have told the Board; i t  is  on record.  

You can gat i t  from HEW. I t  is  p ublic  record here,



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a y  r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s  to o u r  Board, a n d  I d i d n ’t m e a n  

to cu t  y o u  o f f .

MR. NEWTON: No, m y  q u e s t i o n  was there is a

q u e s t i o n  in m y  m i n d ,  e v e n  th o u g h  y o u  s a y  y o u  d o n ' t  

h a v e  a n y  i n  the s c h o o l  f o r  the d e a f  o n  the a d v a n c e d  

level, the q u e s t i o n  in m y  m i n d ,  y o u  c a n  r e a l l y  see 

e a c h  an d  e v e r y  child over there, y o u  d o n ' t  h a v e  a 

s i n g l e  c h i l d  w h o  c o u l d  not f u n c t i o n  o n  the a d v a n c e d  

level, no t  one o v e r  there?

A  1 w o u l d n ' t  w a n t  to be w i l l i n g  t o  say that. 1

w o u l d  h a v e  to c h e c k  the record.

MR. NEWTON: 1 am s a y i n g  if y o u  had one right 

now, today, if y o u  h a d  just one out of this h u n d r e d  

o d d  s t u d e n t s  o v e r  there, n a t u r a l l y  y o u  d o n ' t  h a v e  

a n y  tea c h e r s  e q u i p p e d  to teach one c h i l d , w h a t  w o u l d  

y o u  d o  w i t h  that one child?

A  1 w o u l d  a s k  m y  b o a r d  to t r a n s f e r  to p u r e l y

v o c a t i o n a l  o r  p u r e l y  a c a d e m i c  school. T h a t  just 

h a s n ' t  g o t t e n  to us.

MR. NEWTON: W h a t  1 a m  t r y i n g  to get at, y o u  

w o u l d  h a v e  to get y o u r  B o a r d ' s  p e r m i s s i o n  to d o  

that, y o u  co u l d  not ©n  y o u r  own just d o  that today?

A  T h a t  is right.



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o'"

Q Hr. Gentry, would you say that part of the rea­

son why we may not be having more Negro Deaf children  

operating at this  advanced l e v e l ,  might be that the 

f a c i l i t i e s  are ju s t  not as good as the f a c i l i t i e s  

over here, and that i f  perhaps a child would spend, 

instead of seven years in a Negro Deaf School and 

seven years over here, the likelihood of his per­

forming a t  the advanced le v e l  would be greater, would 

you say that is probably true?

A No, s i r ,  for me to make that kind of statement,

and i f  I was principal  of one school as against  

another, 1 c a n 't  p i t  one school against another; I go 

into both schools and observe c la s s e s .  I find good, 

very good instruction in both schools. X find the 

methods used by the p rincip als,  there are se v e r a l  

methods of teaching the deaf language and speech and 

so forth, I find the method varies  with d i f f e r e n t  ones 

but I would have to say t h i s ,  that probably your 

grading system is a l i t t l e  more s t r i c t  with Mr.

Strong and his fa c u lty  of promoting them up than 

probably in th is  school;  I c o u ld n 't  say d e f i n i t e l y .

Q You mean the grading system in the white school

is easier  so th at  more people can reach advanced l e v s L



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A There again i f  I put a statement l ike  that in 

the record 1 couldn’ t say i t ;  we have watched students  

from both schools make unusual progress, and to what 

degree that item, as comparing one against the other, I 

couldn't  answer, because I think we have good in ­

stru ctio n  in both schools.

q Whet plans do you have, in terms of possibly  

re sh u ffl in g  fa c u lty  members, In je ctin g  some new l i f e  

over there, so as to get b e t te r  re s u lts ,  and by th at,

I mean t h is ,  I have viewed these two schools somewhat 

as i f  1 had two fa c t o r ie s ,  one was turning out f i f t e e n  

percent in a given year of i t s  student body at  an ad­

vanced l e v e l ,  and the other school, you did not have 

that f i f t e e n  percent, in f a c t ,  you had two percent, a 

manager would be concerned and want to know why this  

wag happening, and why are we having this at one place 

and not the other, and I wondered i f  you had thought of 

any steps to be taken to upgrade the system so as 

to get b e t te r  results out of these Negro children?

A That is going on a l l  of the time, every day, and

1 guess the teacher there spends more time in perhaps 

- -  and we even gave the principal a year's  leave, he 

was one of the ten adults for  the deaf sent to San Fer-



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nando State College,  one of the ten, and X have been 

In i t  with him a t  his fa c u lty  meetings and d r i l l e d ,  

d r i l l e d ,  d r i l l e d  over methods and procedures to improve 

inst  ruction.

X go in and watch instructions in the c l a s s ,  I 

come up and go down and find one doing so good one 

day, and the next day i t  may be reversed; I c an 't  

answer a question c a t e g o r ic a l ly  that Instruction in 

one school is  poorer than the other; I just c a n 't  do 

th at.

Q But you haven't taken any measures to try  and

overcome th is  thing in the Negro School?

A We have had twice as many to answer that

question, the very f a c t  that we have had twice as 

many teachers from that school go to summer school  

and s p e c ia l  programs and take sp e c ia l  programs - -  

sp e c ia l  courses as we have from this  one, would in d i­

cate that we may have put s l o t  more pressure on 

teachers in that school than we have in this  one,

Q In terras of new schools, before we leave this

question of graduating, is  there the same disproportion  

between the blind schools as there are the deaf 

schools, or would you say the same percentageof s tu ­



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dents in the Negro Blind School are operating at an 

advanced le v e l  as those in the White Blind School?

A Well, I would assume that is pretty  near iy !

c o r r e c t .

We know that the way we are operating State  

Schools for  the Blind is pretty  expensive. The Home 

Economics teacher can get more over with her course 

because we have fewer g ir l s  than we have in the other  

school. la  l ike  manner, your music and your other 

subject matter program, I would say they w i l l  make 

ju s t  about equal progress in that school.

Q. Will figures that we are going to get in the l i s t  

showing graduates, would that indicate approximately the 

same amount of graduates?

A That' s r ig h t,  in proportion, in proportion to 

the number of students.

HR. BRADLEY: Just ask him what about for this  

school term at the Blind, the Colored Blind, are there 

students in each advance course?

A Yes, there are.

MR. BRADLEY: How many in each, do you know?

A That is what we are ge ttin g.

MR. BRADLEY: Just offhand?



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A Out of 75, I t h i n k  there are aro u n d ,  X w o u l d

say, f i f t e e n ,  1 d o n ’t t h i n k  w h e n  we get the figure, 

it w i l l  v a r y  f r o m  that very m u c h ,  f i f t e e n  in the 

a d v a n c e d  d e p a r t m e n t .

Q, I n  e a c h  one, o r  at the W h i t e  Blind?

A No; that is at  the N e g r o  Blind.

Q H o w  m a n y  in the W h i t e  Blind?

A  I w o u l d  s a y  in the H i g h  S c h o o l  there are at leas^

f o r t y  o r  fifty, b e c a u s e  t h e y h a v e  a b o u t  d o u b l e d  the 

n u m b e r  of e n r o l l m e n t ,

Q  I n  terms of s c h o o l s  that o p e n e d  f o r  the fi r s t

tine this fall, we  m e n t i o n e d  that there are six new 

c l a s s r o o m s  in the N e g r o  S c h o o l .  We m e n t i o n e d  that 

there is a new b u i l d i n g  that just o p e n e d  in the A d u l t  

D e p a r t m e n t .  Is there a new b u i l d i n g ?

A  We h a v e  new ones.

Q, A l l  of w h i c h  b e g a n  v e r y  recently?

A  V e r y  recently.

Q I n  terms of sc h o o l s  t h e m s e l v e s ,  at w h i c h  s c h o o l s

di d  this ne w  b u i l d i n g  open this fall, a p a r t  from the 

s i x  class rooms we talked ab o u t ?

A  Y o u  m e a n  a p a r t  fr o m  the te n  c l a s s r o o m s ?

Q, Yes, sir.



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A  One d o r m i t o r y  at the N e g r o  Deaf, b r a n d  new,

o c c u p i e d  f o r  the first time in S e p t e m b e r ;  that is the 

o n l y  ne w  s c h o o l  o r  new d e p a r t m e n t  that we had.

HE. NEWTON: A n y  u n d e r  c o n s t r u c t i o n  now?

A  We l l ,  s t a r t i n g  M o n d a y ,  c o n s t r u c t i o n  s t a r t i n g  on 

a b e g i n n e r  s c h o o l  f o r  the deaf.

MR. N E W T O N : A t  the Wh i t e  Deaf?

A  It w i l l  be o n  this campus; h o w e v e r ,  a l l  b e ­

g i nners, a c c o r d i n g  to o u r  p l a n  we s u b m i t t e d ,  a l l  b e ­

g i n n e r s  w i l l  b e g i n  there.

Q W h a t  p l a n  are y o u  r e f e r r i n g  to?

MR. NEWTON: HEW.

Q D i d  y o u  file w i t h  H E W  a f o r m a l  p l a n  of d e ­

s e g r e g a t i o n ?

A  Yes.

Q Is that m a t e r i a l  we are g o i n g  to  have a c o p y

o f ?

A  Y e s .

Q W h e n  w a s  this filed?

A W e l l ,  we filed it, it gives the d a t e  and

eve rything.

MR. B RADLEY: H e r a  is the one th e y  filed.

MR. N E W T O N : Filed July 9, 1965. 

q______Has H E W  c o r r e s p o n d e d  w i t h  yo u  ____



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t o  t h is  plan?

MR. BRADLEY: But no commitment - -  volumes, but  

no commitment.

Q They have n e ith e r  approved nor disapproved the

plan?

A We have had them v i s i t  us a f t e r  three or four

requests by our Board for me to w rite  them again and 

tell us if the plan I have presented to our Board 

would satisfy them, and they say we are not going to 

vote on i t  until we see whether i t  w i l l  s a t i s f y  them.

A t  the last meeting of the Board of T r u s te e s ,  

they postponed any vote or anything going on any f u r ­

ther until we heard.

Q, Is i t  l i k e l y  HEW has not done anything because

of the pendency of th is  s u it?

A No, s i r .

Before th is  s u i t  came up, th is  committee th at  

v i s i t e d  here in February, four people, I would l ik e  

to  say now i t  was a very enjoyable two days, and we 

told  them we wanted them to look in every s i t u a t i o n  

p o s s i b l e ,  and we s p e lle d  i t  out, day and n ig h t ,  

e x a c t l y  what our proposals were, and said now, that  

is  what we want to  do fo r  the best i n t e r e s t  of educa-



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Ci o n  of o u r  c h i l d r e n ;  these are the st e p s . W e  ere 

in the b u i l d i n g  p r ogram. We h a v e  got this new school, 

a n d  got t o  l o o s e n  up a l l  f o u r  s c h o o l s  by t r a n s f e r r i n g  

some of th e m  in t o  there, and t h e n  it is a l l  s p e l l e d  

out e x a c t l y  h o w  v e w o u l d  d o  it, and w e  told them that 

w o u l d  be the t h i n g  that I saw that w o u l d  be to the 

b e s t  i n t e r e s t  of the e d u c a t i o n  of the c h i l d r e n ,  as 

w e l l  as c o m p l i a n c e  w i t h  the law.

Q D i d  H E W  i n d i c a t e  to y o u  in t h e i r  visit that  

t h e y  w o u l d  w a n t  to see s o m e t h i n g  m o r e  done t h a n  y o u  

h a d  p r o p o s e d ;  did they ind i c a t e  that to you?

A  T h e y  told m e ,  the fi r s t  t h i n g  e v e r  said, if we

w o u l d  —  Mr. C a r d e n  was in c harge, I c e r t a i n l y  

w o u l d n ' t  be p r i v i l e g e d  to qu o t e  him, b u t  I got the 

I m p r e s s i o n  — •

Q Just m a t t e r s  he told you?

A  1 got the i m p r e s s i o n  from them that o u r  w h o l e

b a s i s  of c a r r y i n g  out the law w o u l d  be —  w o u l d  loosen 

up  a l l  ©£ these s c h o o l s  w h e n  we got this two m i l l i o n  

d o l l a r  p l a n t  we are Just t a l k i n g  ab o u t ,  n o t h i n g  in 

the U n i t e d  S t a t e s  c o m p a r a b l e  to it; that is w h y  in m y  

J u d g m e n t ,  and w h e n  I w e n t  to W a s h i n g t o n  o n  this 

S p e c i a l  C o m m i t t e e ,  had tw o  m e m b e r s  that m e t  w i t h  them



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a n d  told roe t h e y  w a n t e d  us to get in h e r e  and see

w h a t  w e  w e r e  g o i n g  to do.

Q W h a t  new plant is that?

A  T h a t  is the t e c h n i c a l  s c h o o l  w e  are g o i n g  i n t o  

J a n u a r y  1st.

Q  I s n ’ t that p a r t  of the A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t ?

A  It is p a r t  of a l l  o u r  school. S t u d e n t s  w i l l  be

t r a n s f e r r e d  into this school, and it w i l l  be a c a d e m i c  

as w e l l  as v o c a t i o n a l .

Q A new b u i l d i n g  is g o i n g  to open, o r  the w h o l e  

thing?

A  T h e  w h o l e  c o m p l e x  is g o i n g  to open. H E W  

c a l l e d  roe an d  sa i d  this is a m o d e l  f o r  the w h o l e

c o u n t r y .

q  W h a t  d o  y o u  p r o p o s e  to d o  w i t h  the s c h o o l

b u i l d i n g s  an d  c l a s s r o o m s  y o u  no w  ha v e ?

A W e  are e v a l u a t i n g  o u r  v o c a t i o n a l  p r o g r a m  in

the f o u r  schools, and they w i l l  be geared toward a 

time w h e n  t h e y  re a c h  the h i g h e s t  level a c a d e m i c a l l y  

w h e r e  th e y  w i l l  t r a n s f e r  into this school.

Q W h a t  a b o u t  i n t e g r a t i n g  e a c h  of the p r o g r a m s

an d  e a c h  of the sc h o o l s  now; that wa s  not a part of 

y o u r  plan?

_A______ Y o u  h a v e  to read o u r  p l a n  to find that,___________



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We will.

A c t u a l l y  this d e p o s i t i o n  is gea r e d  to d e ­

t e c t i n g  the c o n d i t i o n s .

W o u l d  y o u  be able to list f o r  us the v o c a t i o n a l  

c o u r s e s  that are now b e i n g  taught at the W h i t e  Deaf  

S c h o o l ?

A  Yes, sir.

Q S t r a i g h t  do w n ,  just one list?

A  B a r b e r i n g ,  p r i n t i n g ,  shoe repair, c o s m e t o l o g y ,

v o c a t i o n a l  ho m e  e c o n o m i c s ,  a u t o  m e c h a n i c s .

Q We h a v e  p r e v i o u s l y  e s t a b l i s h e d  --

A  An d  w o o d w o r k i n g .

Q S e v e n  v o c a t i o n a l  c ourses.

W e  h a v e  p r e v i o u s l y  e s t a b l i s h e d  there are no 

N e g r o e s  f r o ®  the D e a f  S c h o o l  now i n  a t t e n d a n c e  at  a n y  

of those things in this w h i t e  school?

A  T h a t ' s  right, but a l o n g  w i t h  that, we e s t a b l i s h ^  

the r e a s o n  w h y  there w e r e  not; they w e r e  last year, 

a n d  if t h e y  we r e  a b o v e  the

Q W o u l d  y o u  repeat that, w h y  they w e r e  not?

A  B e c a u s e  t h e y  are not at e d u c a t i o n a l  level f o r

v o c a t i o n a l .

We d o n ' t  c o n s i d e r  them g o i n g  in t o  v o c a t i o n s



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here u n t i l  they get beyond the s i x t h  grade,  

q Would you give us the names of Hegrostudents

who attended the course l a s t  year?

A Yes.

Q And what courses they attended?

A T h a t 's  r i g h t .

You want the courses in the other schools f o r  

the Deaf?

Q The courses f o r  the Hegro School f o r  the deaf?

A They have the same s i t u a t i o n  e x a c t l y ,  vocationa;.  

Home Economics, 

q How about barbering?

A Barbering is  o ffe r e d ,  and cosmetology.

Q L e t 's  go back to barbaring.

Is i t  true there are seven barber chairs a t  the 

White School?

A Approximately.

q And a f u l l  time barber in str u cto r ?

A T h a t 's  r i g h t ,  and there is  not in the other  

sch o ol.

Q I s n ' t  i t  true th a t  there is  only one barber

c h a ir  in  the Negro Deaf School?

A I thought there were two there. I may be wrong.



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Q  Y o u  w o u l d  s a y  there m a y  be two?

A  It Is not a t r a i n i n g  c e n t e r  f o r  b a rbers.

Q. Th i s  is p r e c i s e l y  w h a t  I a m  g e t t i n g  b a c k  to.

A  T h e r e  is no t r a i n i n g  g o i n g  on.

Q Y o u  d o  not a t t e m p t  to te a c h  b a r b e r i n g ?

A  No, sir. I t  is a s e r v i c e  area.

Q A i l  right.

I t  is u s e d  only to cut the h a i r  of N e g r o  

stu d e n t s ?

A  T h a t ' s  right, bu t  that is not true w i t h  c o s m e t o ­

logy.

Q B a r b e r i n g  is not b e i n g  taught at the Deaf 

S c h o o l ;  h o w  a b o u t  p r i n t i n g ;  is that b e i n g  taught at 

the N e g r o  D e a f  S c h o o l ?

A No.

Q H o w  a b o u t  shoe repair?

A  No, sir. If we h a d  a n y b o d y  that w a n t e d  it, they

c o u l d  take it a t  the s h o p  h e r e .

Q  Let's go b a c k  a step. Y o u  i n d i c a t e d  there w a r e

not -- that they could take it h e r e ?

A  Yes.

Q I th o u g h t  y o u  said they w e r e  not c a p a b l e  of

t a k i n g  these c o u r s e s  b e f o r e . I t h o u g h t  yo u  said th e y



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were in Che advanced level?

A A l l  shop courses that we have, i f  there is any­

one the principal  recommends for this  vocation, we

have no qualms at a l l  about putting them in the 

shoe shop anymore than we did about putting them in 

the auto shop or any other place they can q u a lif y .

Q We have established barbering, printing and 

shoe repairing are not being offered a t  the Negro 

School.

You have said yet they can take them here i f

they want; is that right?

A That * s right.  Our Board has ju s t  - -  I haven't

brought i t  to them, except we ju st  said in the 

meeting that we w i l l  give some vocational work at  the 

center for  the Deaf, and that was when we had re­

h a b i l i t a t i o n  approved students from both schools to 

take train in g here, and wherever we found the 

train in g,  we put them in there.

Q I am confused.

When and where did anyone ever inform Negro 

Students in the Deaf School they had the p r iv ile g e  

of coming to the White School to take these courses,  

when and where?



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A  That la up to the princip al  of each school to 

request th at.

Q, Is n 8t  i t  true Negro students at the Deaf School  

simply because of the way i t  has been operating over 

the years, are under the understanding, or have the 

understanding that they are e n t i t l e d  to take what is  

being offered at  the Deaf School; and, therefore, they 

have never requested i t  because i t  has always been 

true that Negroes only attend school at the Negro 

Deaf School?

This is  what we have admitted before so that I 

am not sure 1  understand your statement at a l l  that  

they can take i t  i f  they want to, because i t  has never 

been the p ra ctic e ,  and they have never been informed?

A I f  I said they could take I t  i f  they want to,

boys and g ir ls  don't  take vocational courses because 

they want i t ,  i t  is  between the Director of vocational  

education and the principal and teacher and the point  

of readiness.

Q. But I t  is being offered here?

A I t  is being offered here.

Q They can e l e c t  to choose It?

A I f  anybody is at the point of readiness, i t  is



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a v a i l a b l e

Q  It la not a v a i l a b l e  in the N e g r o  S c h o o l ,  a n d  if 

t h e y  a r e  at  the p o i n t  of readiness, t h e y  a r e  not able  

t o  o b t a i n  t r a i n i n g  in these p a r t i c u l a r  fields; is that 

c o r r e c t ?

A  No, sir, b e c a u s e  the record shows w e  h a v e  had

th e n  he r e .

W h a t e v e r  t r a i n i n g  y o u  p u t  one in w i l l  be b a s e d  

u p o n  w h a t  y o u r  f a c u l t y  says is i n  this boy*s interest.

Q H o w  w o u l d *  f a c u l t y  m e m b e r  in a N e g r o  S c h o o l ,  

w o u l d  he e v e r  h a v e  the o c c a s i o n  to pass on w h e t h e r  a 

N e g r o  c h i l d  ought to be p e r m i t t e d  to taka a c o u r s e  

in  p r i n t i n g  at the w h i t e  school?

H a v e  y o u  e v e r  ha d  a r e f e r r a l  b y  a t e a c h e r  in the 

N e g r o  S c h o o l ?

A  Mr, P a t t o n  w o u l d  d o  a t  the N e g r o  S c h o o l  like he 

do e s  w i t h  Mrs. R i s e r  in this school. He sits d o w n  

a n d  talks w i t h  the p r i n c i p a l ,  and they go f r o m  there 

t o  the tea c h e r ,  and if th e y  have a n y  s t u d e n t  that needs 

to be c o n s i d e r e d  f o r  a n y  trade that is not o f f e r e d  on 

this ca m p u s ,  o r  that on®, then t h e y  w o u l d  c o n s i d e r  it.

Q  W o u l d  y o u  i n dicate to us in w h i c h  of the d i ­

r ectives or  rules of the i n s t i t u t e  that that p r o c e d u r e



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i s  o u t l i n e d  f o r  t h e  b e n e f i t  o f  a  p r i n c i p a l ?

A  I t  i s  n o t .

Q  W o u l d  y o u  s a y ,  M r .  G e n t r y ,  t h a t  t h e  r e a s o n  w h y

t h e r e  a r e  n o  N e g r o e s  i n  t h e  t r a i n i n g  - -  t h a t  i s ,  

t h e s e  t h r e e  t r a i n i n g  p r o g r a m s  o r  v o c a t i o n a l  c o u r s e s  

w h i c h  a r e  o f f e r e d  a t  t h e  W h i t e  D e a f  b u t  n o t  a t  t h e  

N e g r o  D e a f ,  i s  s i m p l y  b e c a u s e  o f  t h e  w a y  t h e  i n s t i ­

t u t e s  h a v e  b e e n  o p e r a t e d  o v e r  t h e  y e a r s ,  w h i c h  i s  t h a t  

N e g r o e s  h a v e  n o r m a l l y  l i v e d  i n  t h e  N e g r o  S c h o o l  a n d  

a t t e n d e d  s c h o o l ,  a n d  t h e  W h i t e s  h a v e  l i v e d  a n d  h a v e  

a t t e n d e d  s c h o o l  a t  t h e  W h i t e  S c h o o l ,  a n d ,  t h e r e f o r e ,  

a  s t u d e n t  w a s  o n l y  e x p o s e d  a n d  a b l e  t o  t a k e  c o u r s e s  

o f f e r e d  a t  t h e  c e n t e r ;  a n d  t h e  N e g r o  i s  n o t  o f f e r e d  

t h e s e  c o u r s e s  a t  t h e  N e g r o  s c h o o l ?  W o u l d  y o u  s a y  

t h a t  i s  w h y  t h e r e  a r e  n o  N e g r o e s  i n  c o u r s e s  a t  t h e  

w h i t e  s c h o o l ?

A  N o ,  s i r ;  1  c o u l d n ' t  h o n e s t l y  s a y  i t ,  b e c a u s e  I

r e c a l l  t h e  l a s t  t h r e e  o r  f o u r  y e a r s  w e  h a v e  h a d  m o r e  

N e g r o  t r a i n e e s  i n  h o r t i c u l t u r e  t h a n  w e  h a v e  w h i t e  

s t u d e n t s .

M R .  W H I T E :  L e t ' s  h a v e  a  r e q u e s t  i n  t h e  r e c o r d  

t h a t  M r .  G e n t r y  i s  n o t a b l e  t o  d o  i t  n o w ,  b u t  w e  w i l l  

b e  s u p p l i e d  s o m e t i m e  i n  a d v a n c e  o f  t h e  t r i a l  o n  N o v e r a b e



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9 t h ,  w i t h  t h e  o a s e s  o f  a n y  N e g r o  p u p i l  a t  t h e  D e a f  

S c h o o l  - -  t h e  N e g r o  D e a f  S c h o o l ,  w h o  h a v e  a t t e n d e d  

e i t h e r  b a r b e r i n g ,  p r i n t i n g ,  o r  s h o e  r e p a i r i n g ,  o r  

a n y  o f  t h e  o t h e r  v o c a t i o n a l  c o u r s e s  a t  t h e  W h i t e  D e a l  

S c h o o l ,  t h e  y e a r  t h e y  a t t e n d e d ,  a n d  t h e  c o u r s e  t h e y  

t o o k ?

A  T h a t  i s  r e a s o n a b l e ,  a n d  1  w i l l  b e  g l a d  t o

f u r n i s h  t h a t ,

M R .  N E W T O N :  I f  a  N e g r o  c h i l d  w a s  r e a d y ,  w h o  

w o u l d  y o u  h a v e  t o  t e a c h  h i m  b a r b e r i n g  a t  t h e  w h i t e  

d e a f  s c h o o l  w i t h  f i v e  b a r b e r  c h a i r s ?

A  T h a t  i s  w h a t  I  h a v e  b e e n  t r y i n g  t o  h a m m e r  o n

a l l  m o r n i n g .

Y o u  c a n ’ t  p r o v i d e  t w o  t r a i n i n g  f a c i l i t i e s ,  b e ­

c a u s e  o f  t h e  n u m b e r  t h a t  t a k e  b a r b e r i n g ;  i t  w o u l d  h a n  

t o  b e  u n d e r  t h e  s a m e  p e r s o n .

M R .  N E W T O N :  Y o u  c a n ’ t  r e a s o n a b l y  e x p e c t  t h e  

p r i n c i p a l  o v e r  t h e r e  t o  s u g g e s t  h e  c o m e  o v e r  h e r e ,  

c o u l d  y o u ?

A  T h a t ’ s  r i g h t .

M R .  N E W T O N :  T h a t  i s  t r u e ,  i s n ’ t  i t ?

A  T h a  t  i s  t  r u e .

q  N o w ,  t h e  v o c a t i o n a l  c o u r s e s  t h a t  a r e  o f f e r e d



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a t  t h e  N e g r o  S c h o o l s  a r e  t h e s e  a n d  I  a m  t r y i n g  t o  

s u m m a r i s e  y o u r  e a r l i e r  t e s t i m o n y ,  h o m e  e c o n o m i c s ,  

w o o d w o r k ,  c o s m e t o l o g y ?

A  A n d  u n t i l  O c t o b e r  1 s t  o f  t h i s  y e a r ,  o n e  o f  

o u r  b i g g e s t  o n e s  a n d  m o s t  o f  t h e m  t o o k  i t ,  a n d  i t  

w a s  r e a l l y  w o r k i n g ,  r e g a r d l e s s  o f  w h a t  t h e  f a m i l i e s  

o f  s o m e  o f  t h e m  s a i d  a b o u t  u s ,  b e c a u s e  w e  p a i d  

$ 2 0 , 0 0 0 , 0 0  a  y e a r  f o r  h i r e d  h e l p  t o  d o  t h e  w o r k ,  b u t  

i t  w a s  o n  a  t e a c h i n g  b a s i s .  M o s t  o f  t h e m  t o o k  

l a u n d r y  a n d  d r y  c l e a n i n g .  A c t u a l l y  t h a t  a c c o u n t s  

p a r t i a l l y  f o r  u s  b e i n g  d e p l e t e d ,  b e c a u s e  t h e y  g o t  

s o  p r o f e s s i o n a l  i n  t h a t  t h e y  w o u l d  r a t h e r  h a v e  a  

j o b  t h a n  g o  t o  s c h o o l .

Q  L a u n d r y  a n d  d r y  c l e a n i n g  i s  b e i n g  t a u g h t  a t

t h e  N e g r o  S c h o o l ?

A  N o .

Q, I t  i s  n o t  b e i n g  t a u g h t  a t  t h e  W h i t  e  S c h o o l ?

A  N o ,  b u t  W h i t e s  g o  t o  t a k e  i t .

Q, H o w  m a n y  w h i t e  s t u d e n t s  a r e  n o w  i n  a t t e n d a n c e

a t  t h e  N e g r o  S c h o o l  i n  t h e  l a u n d r y  c o u r s e ?

A  M r .  P a t t o n  s a i d  t h e s e  t w o  t h a t  a r e  d o w n  t h e r e

n o w  h a v e  g o n e  o n e  h u n d r e d  p e r c e n t  w i t h  t h e  A d u l t  

D e p a r t m e n t  i n s t e a d  o f  t a k i n g  t h e i r  r e l a t e d  i n s  t r u e



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h e r e ,  w h i c h  t h e y  h a v e  a l w a y s  d o n e ,  u p  u n t i l  t h i s  j e a r ,  

a n d  o n  O c t o b e r  1 s t ,  w e  t u r n e d  t h a t  D e p a r t m e n t  o v e r  

t o  t h e  A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t ,  a n d  o u r  B o a r d  a u t h o r i z e d  

t h a  t .

M R .  W H I T E :  L e t  m e  g e t  s o m e t h i n g  i n t o  t h e  r e ­

c o r d .  E a r l i e r  w h e r e  w e  h a d  d i s c u s s e d  b a r t e r i n g ,  

p r i n t i n g  a n d  s h o e  r e p a i r i n g ,  w e  h a d  o m i t t e d  t a l k i n g  

a b o u t  a u t o  r e p a i r ,  w h i c h  i s  a l s o  i n  t h e  c a t e g o r y  o f  

v o c a t i o n a l  c o u r s e s  n o t  b e i n g  o f f e r e d  a t  t h e  N e g r o  

S c h o o l .

M R .  B R A D L E Y :  D o  y o u  o f f e r  t h a t  h e r e ?

A  Y e s , a n d  a s  M r .  P a t t o n  t o l d  y o u ,  w e  h a d  s t u d e n t s

f r o m  d o w n  t h e r e  i n  t h a t  c o u r s e  l a s t  y e a r ,  b u t  w e  d o n ’ t  

h a v e  a n y  t h i s  y e a r .

Q  T h i s  s h o u l d  b e  a  p a r t  o f  t h e  l i s t  w e  h a v e  r e -

q u e s  t e d ?

A  Y e s ,  i t  s h o u l d  b e  a  p a r t  o f  t h e  l i s t .

q  R e g a r d i n g  t h e  l a u n d r y  c e n t e r ,  i s  a l l  t h e  l a u n d r y

d o n e  f o r  t h e  w h o l e  s c h o o l  a t  t h e  l a u n d r y  c e n t e r  a t  

t h e  D e a f  S c h o o l ?

A  T h a t  i s  r i g h t .

Q T h o s e  a r e  c l o t h e s  t h a t  need t o  be w a s h e d  o r

d r y  c l e a n e d ,  o r  i s  i t  o n l y  d r y  c l e a n i n g ,  o r  i s  i t



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d r y  c l e a n i n g  - -  w a s h i n g  a l s o ?

A  T h e y  d o  t h e  l a u n d r y .  I f  a n y  s t u d e n t  w a n t s

t h e i r  s u i t  c l e a n e d ,  t h e y  p a y  f o r  t h a t  j u s t  l i k e  I  

d o .

As sn  e m p l o y e e ,  I  c a n  g e t  r a y  s u i t  c l e a n e d  d o w n  

t h e r e ,  a n d  I  d o  t h a t  a l l  t h e  t i m e .

Q  A n d  i t  i s  s e n t  t o  t h e  N e g r o  S c h o o l  a n d  i t  i s

c l e a n e d  t h e r e  b y  t h e  s t u d e n t s  i n  t h i s  c o u r s e ?

A  N o ;  t h e y  h a v e  h i r e d  h e l p  t h a t  d o e s  t h e  l a u n d r y

w o r k .  T h e  i n s t r u c t o r  h a s  a  f o r e m a n  f o r  e a c h  d e p a r t ­

m e n t  i n  t h a t  f a c i l i t y  a n d  h e  d o e s  t h e  c l a s s r o o m  I n ­

s t r u c t i o n ;  a n d  t h e y  g o  o u t ,  a n d  c e r t a i n l y  t h e y  h a v e  

t o  l e a r n  h o w  t o  p e r f o r m  a n d  o p e r a t e  c e r t a i n  m a c h i n e s  

a s  a  p a r t  o f  t h e i r  t r a i n i n g  p r o g r a m ;  w e  d o n ' t  d o  i t  

i n  o r d e r  t o  s a v e  m o n e y  i n  t h e  c o s t  o f  l a u n d r y ,  b e ­

c a u s e  w e  c o u l d  - -  w i t h  w h a t  w e  p u t  i n  t h e  l a u n d r y ,  

w e  c o u l d  d o  o u r  l a u n d r y  w o r k  i f  t h e r e  w a s n ' t  a n y  

s t u d e n t s  i n v o l v e d  d o w n  t h e r e ,  b e c a u s e  w e  h a v e  e n o u g h  

h i r e d  h e l p  t o  d o  i t .

I  h a v e  h a d  p a r e n t s ,  a n d  I  h a v e  s a t  d o w n  w i t h  

t h e m  t i m e  a n d  a g a i n  a n d  t a l k e d  w i t h  t h e m ,  a n d  w e  

w o u l d  a s k  t h e m  t o  c o m e  u p  h e r e  a n d  s a i d ,  y o u  a r e  

g e t t i n g  a  r e p o r t  s o m e w h e r e  t h a t  t h e  b o y s  a n d  g i r l s



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d o w n  he r e  a r e  h a v i n g  to d o  the l a u n d r y  w o r k  for the 

s chool. I said, that is s o  u ntrue; go up and lo o k 

fo r  y o u r s e l f .

Q D o n ’ t t h e y  learn, w h i l e  they are l e a r n i n g  in the

l a u n d r y  sch o o l ,  t h e y  are l e a r n i n g  b y  w o r k i n g  o n  

c l o t h e s  that are g a t h e r e d  fr o m  the e n t i r e  ins t i t u t e ,  

t h e y  ar e  learning, but they are l e a r n i n g  b y  w o r k i n g  

on c l o t h e s  f r o m  the ins t i t u t e ?

A Sure. 1 d o n ' t  know if y o u  know him, but I b e ­

lieve he has his d o c t o r a t e  now, L a w s o n  out at W e n o n a h  

in B i r m i n g h a m ;  I w a s  in ch a r g e  of a l l  the trade 

s c h o o l s  in the S t a t e  in the D e p a r t m e n t ,  and we ha d  

a time g e t t i n g  e n o u g h  people. I wa s  e s p e c i a l l y  

p u s h e d  f o r  this d e p a r t m e n t ,  d r y  c l e a n i n g ,  w h i c h  I h a d  i 

time g e t t i n g  e n o u g h  live w o r k  in there out s i d e  o f  the 

c l a s s r o o m  w o r k  to d e v e l o p  t h e i r  s k i l l  w i t h  a real 

t r a i n e d  p e r s o n  in there to show them ho w  to c a r r y  out 

t h e i r  job; 1 told him, Lawson, get y o u r  s t u d e n t s ,  

you c a n n o t  c o m p e t e  w i t h  pr i v a t e  b u s i n e s s ,  but take 

l a u n d r y  an d  d r y  c l e a n i n g ,  we are proud of it. We ha v e  

e n o u g h  live w o r k  t h e y  c a n  le a r n h o w  to d o  the laboratory 

p a r t  of the t r a ining. The c l a s s r o o m  part is just as 

i m p o r t a n t  as the laboratory.



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T h e  r e a s o n  I a m  e x t e n d i n g  m y  remarks, I was 

a s s o c i a t e  d i r e c t o r  of v o c a t i o n a l  e d u c a t i o n  in the 

S t a t e ,  a n d  it w a s  th e n  that we d e v e l o p e d  a l l  of 

these h i g h  s c hools, and I w o r k e d  m o s t l y  w i t h  L a w s o n  

at W e n o n a h , and y o u  c a n n o t  s e p a r a t e  w h e n  y o u  are 

t e a c h i n g  a trade, y o u  m u s t  teach rel a t e d  s u b j e c t  m a t ­

ter, a n d  u n t i l  this year, we have ta u g h t  related s u b ­

ject m a t t e r  in the schools, b o t h  s c hools, to a large 

e x t e n t ,  and let t h e m  go in f o r  the l a b o r a t o r y  e x ­

p e r i e n c e s  in the various shops to get that done.

Q, G o i n g  b a c k  to  this q u e s t i o n  of b a r b e r i n g ,

p r i n t i n g  a n d  shoe r e p a i r i n g  and a u t o  repairing, 1 

w a n t  to get y o u r  a g r e e m e n t  that y o u  a s s e r t e d ,  I think, 

t h e y  a r e  not h e r ©  b e c a u s e  they h a v e n ' t  req u e s t e d  t o  

come an d  that the Board w o u l d  c o n s i d e r  it if th e y  

r e q u e s t e d  to come?

A Oh, d e f i n i t e l y .

q  A n d  1 w a n t  to s p e l l  this out, b e c a u s e  at a n

e a r l i e r  point, if 1 a m  not m i s t a k e n ,  you said it was 

b e c a u s e  they are not q u a l i f i e d ,  and since we w e r e  

t a l k i n g  a b o u t  r a t h e r  m a n u a l  skills like shoe r e p a i r i n g  

a n d  a u t o  repairing, ra t h e r  than m e n t a l  skills, 1 w a n t  

to m a k e  sure we w e r e  g e t t i n g  the r e a s o n  why, and the



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r e a s o n  i s  t h e y  d i d  n o t  a p p l y  t o  c o n e  a c r o s s ,  a n d  t h e y  

h a d  n o t  b e e n  r e f e r r e d  b y  t h e  t e a c h e r s  o f  t h o s e  s c h o o l s ?  

A  L e t ' s  g e t  t h e  r e c o r d  c l e a r .

I  h a v e  s a t  d o w n  a n d  t a l k e d  w i t h  t h e  p r i n c i p a l  

s l o t  o f  t i m e s .  H e  s a i d ,  y o u  t a k e  t h e s e  w o r k i n g  a t  f o u r  

a n d  f i f t h  g r a d e  l e v e l  a n d  p u t  t h e m  i n  v o c a t i o n a l  t o o  

e a r l y ,  h e  s a i d  w e  n e e d  t h e m  a l l  d a y  l o n g  t o  g e t  t h e m  a s  

f a r  a c a d e m i c a l l y  b e f o r e  w e  m o v e  t h e m  i n .  T h a t  w a s  h i s  

a r g u m e n t ;  i t  w a s n ' t  t h e y  w o u l d  n o t  b e  q u a l i f i e d  t o  

m a k e  a  s h o e  r e p a i r ,  i t  w a s  b e c a u s e  t h e y  h a d  n o t  r e a c h e d  

t h e  g r a d e  e d u c a t i o n a l l y  w e  f e l t  t h e y  s h o u l d  h a v e .

Q, T h i s  p o i n t s  u p  y o u r  a n s w e r  t o  t h i s  q u e s t i o n ,  

w o u l d  y o u  a g r e e  t h a t  t h e  N e g r o  D e a f  S c h o o l  i s  r a t h e r  

w a y  b e h i n d  t h e  w h i t e  d e a f  s c h o o l  i n  t h e  s e n s e  y o u  a r e  

s a y i n g  t h a t  t h e  c o u r s e  i s  n o t  b e i n g  o f f e r e d  b e c a u s e  

t h e y  a r e  n o t  q u a l i f i e d ,  a m  I  r i g h t ,  t h e  c h i l d r e n  i n  

t h e  N e g r o  S c h o o l  a r e  r e l a t i v e l y  s o  b e h i n d  t h e  i n s t i ­

t u t e  h a d  n o t  t h o u g h t  i t  f e a s i b l e  t o  i n s t a l l  t h e  s a m e  

c o u r s e s  t h a t  i t  h a s  i n s t a l l e d  i n  t h e  W h i t e  D e a f  S c h o o l ?  

A  W e l l ,  t h a t  m a y  b e  p a r t i a l l y  t h e  a n s w e r ,  b u t  i t

w o u l d  n o t  b e  m y  a n s w e r ,  a n d  y o u  a r e  i n  a n  a r e a  t h a t  i t  

i s  h a r d  t o  e x p l a i n .

1  h a v e  b e e n  i n t o  t o o  m a n y  s c h o o l  e v a l u a t i o n s  a n d



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seen how they are aval.ua t a d ; 1 was in  charga of tha 

ona a t  Tuakagaa I n s t i t u t e  High School, tha f i r s t  

e v a lu a tio n  we had ovar thare; they were unhappy, and 

th is  very question cane up a t  tha F a i r f i e l d  I n d u s t r i a l  

High School,  and I was in charge of tha e v a lu a tio n  

there of t h a t ,  and we had a coaasiftee of e ig h te e n ,  and 

you c an always say why aren’ t we given store v o c a tio n a l  

work in t h is  scho ol,  and we have v o ca tio n a l  personnel  

in there with us along with academic personnel. They 

said  u n t i l ,  and i t  has beenpretty g e n e r a l ly  accepted  

in Alabama, that we could move youngsters out too  

q u i c k l y  in t o  a v o c a tio n a l  period, double or what not,  

we could move them mat too q u ic k ly  before they get f a r  

enough advanced to be able to  comprehend that trade.  

(Noon r e c e s s .)

October 27, 1967 2 p.m.

AFTERNOON SESSION 

E. H. GENTRY.

Thereupon resumed the stand and t e s t i f i e d  fu rth er  as 

f o l l o w s :

A Her© are the f i g u r e s ,  School f o r  the Deaf and 

S t a te  School f o r  the Deaf, 144 primary up hare and 63



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d o w n  there. 118 I n t e r m e d i a  tea en d  60 d o w n  there.

53 a d v a n c e d  up here and 49 i n t e r m e d i a  tea at the S t a t e  

S c h o o l .

Y o u  see, t h e y  c l a s s i f y  them d o w n  there as p r i ­

m a r y ,  e l e m e n t a r y  a n d  i n t e r m e d i a t e .  ife c a l l  them p r i ­

m a r y ,  i n t e r m e d i a t e s ,  and a d v a n c e d .  T h e i r  s c h o o l  fo r  

the b l i n d  is like o t h e r  e l e m e n t a r y  sch o o l s ,  e l e m e n t a r y  

78 a n d  44, h i g h  w o u l d  be -- h i g h  s c h o o l  64 a n d  31.

Here is the a n s w e r  to a n o t h e r  one. A t  the w h i t e  

b l i n d  they bad s e v e n  g r a d u a t e s  in 1962-63, a n d  this 

s c h o o l  he r e ,  the w h i t e  deaf, they ha d  s e v e n  a c a d e m i c  

d i p l o m a s  and e l e v e n  v o c a t i o n a l  dip l o m a s .

Q T h a t  is the w h i t e  school?

A  T h a t ' s  right. I n  that p a r t i c u l a r  year, 1962-63, 

Mr. S t r o n g  said i n  his report, no g r a d u a t i n g  e x e r c i s e s  

a r e  p l a n n e d  f o r  this year, as ou r  s t u d e n t s  are y o u n g  

a n d  h a v e n o t  m e t  the n e c e s s a r y  sta n d a r d s .

Q T h a t  is th® N e g r o  Blind?

A  N e g r o  Deaf.

On the N e g r o  Blind --

Q D o  a l l  of these papers c o n t a i n  the i n f o r m a t i o n ?

A  Y e 8. T h e y  have a l l  the i n f o r mation,

q  We c a n  just take these, then?



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M S .  B R A D L E Y :  Y e s .

A  L e t  m e  g o  i n t o  t h i s  t h i n g .

H e r e  h a p p e n s  t o  b e  a  y e a r ,  1 9 6 3 - 1 9 6 4 ,  w e  h a d  t e n  

a c a d e m i c  a n d  o n e  v o c a t i o n a l  h e r e ,  a n d  w e  h a d  e l e v e n  

v o c a t i o n a l  a t  t h e  o t h e r  s c h o o l .  P a r t  o f  t h e m  w e r e  

l a u n d r y  a n d  d r y  c l e a n i n g ,  h o r t i c u l t u r e ,  s e w i n g  a n d  s o  

o n .  T h i s  v a r i e d  e a c h  y e a r .

Q, I t  h a s  t h e i r  n a m e s ,  t o o ?

A  Y e s .

Q  I  t h i n k  w h e r e  w e  l e f t  o f f ,  w e  w e r e  g o i n g  t o  t a l k

a b o u t  t h e  b l i n d  s c h o o l ;  w e  w e r e  g o i n g  t o  g e t  a  l i s t  o f  

v o c a t i o n a l  c o u r s e s  a t  t h e  b l i n d  s c h o o l ?

A  Y o u  m e a n  t h e  v o c a t i o n a l  c o u r s e s ?

q  Y e s ,  v o c a t i o n a l  c o u r s e s  a t  t h e  W h i t e  B l i n d ?

A  W e l l ,  m u s i c ,  b o t h  v o c a l  a n d  i n s t r u m e n t a l ,  a n d

b a n d  a r e  r e c o g n i z e d  o v e r  t h e  c o u n t r y  a s  a  m a j o r  p a r t  

o f  t r a i n i n g  o f  t h e  b l i n d ;  s o  f a r  a s  t h e  t w o  s c h o o l s  a r e  

c o n c e r n e d ,  1  w o u l d n ’ t  t u r n  a r o u n d  f o r  t h e  d i f f e r e n c e  i n  

t h e m .  T h e r e  i s  j u s t  a s  g o o d  t r a i n i n g  i n  o n e  p r o g r a m  a s  

t h e  o t h e r .

q  l o t h  s c h o o l s  h a v e  t r a i n i n g  i n  m u s i c ,  b o t h  v o c a l ,

i n s t r u m e n t a l  a n d  b a n d ?

A  Y e s .  O f  c o u r s e ,  i n  t h e  b a n d  - -  w e  d o  n o t  h a v e  a



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b a n d  at the N e g r o  B l i n d  as such. T h e r e  a g a i n  y o u  m a y  

p u r s u e  that as to w h y  we d o n ’ t let some of theta come 

i n t o  the o t h e r  band. I d o n ’t know that a n y b o d y  has a n y  

o b j e c t i o n  to it at all.

Q  H o w  long b a c k  does the ba n d  at the W h i t e  S c h o o l  

go in terms of years?

A As f a r  as I know, e v e r  since they ha v e  ha d  a

sc h o o l .  It has a l w a y s  b e e n  r e c o g n i z e d  that m u s i c  is 

one of th e  be s t  things f o r  t r a i n i n g  of the blind. 

q  A n d  no N e g r o  has e v e r  b e e n  a m e m b e r  of the band?

A  Not that 1 kn o w  of.

q  A n y  o t h e r  co u r s e s  at the W h i t e  Bl i n d  S c h o o l ?

A  A r t s  and Cr a f t s ,  and v o c a t i o n a l  home e c o n o m i c a .

Q A r e  y o u  s a y i n g  -- that is arts and crafts, w h a t

doe® that c o n s i s t  o f ?

A We l l ,  we go b e y o n d  the t u t t i - f r u i t t i  of sim p l e

little things y o u  o r d i n a r i l y  find in some s c h o o l s  in 

arts and crafts. W e  g o  in t o  let t i n g  them t r y  out in 

a lot of d i f f e r e n t  w o r k  st a t i o n s ,  c e r a m i c s  and needle 

w o r k  a n d  things like that. It is a lot m o r e  c o m p l i c a t e d  

t h a n  y o u  h a v e  in the a v e r a g e  s chool, a J u n i o r  H i g h  

S c h o o l  that teaches art.

q  C e r a m i c s ,  needle work, and d o  yo u  have s c u l p t u r e



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work there?

A We have sculpturing and chat sort of thing. Wa

have a good department in each school. That is imports

for the b l in d .

Q, Your arts  and crafts  program is offered to the

same extent in both schools?

A So is  vocational Home Economics. You remember I

say vocational home economics; I have repeatedly said  

t h a t , because every teacher we have is q u a lif ie d  in 

vocational home economics. There is s l o t  of d i f f e r e d  

in that and the old fashioned home economics.

Q. Is  there anything else?

A Nothing p articu lar  except some of the students ;

the la s t  few years have been going into masseur work 

quite e x te n s iv e ly .  That looks like a wry promising 

occupation.

Q Was that being taught at the white blind school

- -  is i t  being taught now?

A; Yes, that is the only placa we have any equipment 

for i t .  That equipment was a l l  contributed for  i t .

I t  is  part of our program.

Q, I t  is machines; is that right?

A Yes, s i r .



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Q D o  y o u  p l a n  to I n s t a l l  s o m e t h i n g  like that in

N e g r o  S c h o o l ?

A  No, sir; if the court a p p r o v e s  it, we p l a n  to

j o i n  these s o  w e  c a n  get the b e s t  e d u c a t i o n a l  p r o g r a m  

a v a i l a b l e .

Q Is there a b o w l i n g  a l l e y  at the Wh i t e  Blind?

A  B o w l i n g  A l l e y s  a t  a l l  schools. No, there is n o

B o w l i n g  A l l e y  at the N e g r o  Blind. W h e n  the s c h o o l  

b o n d  passed, they had to build them up so m u c h  to get 

th e m  e q u a l  w i t h  training, that they d i d n ' t  d o  it. 

q  Some s c h o o l s  h a v e  a u t o m a t i c  p i n  s etters, d o n ' t

they?

A We dots' t .

q D o e s n ’t one of the w h i t e  sc h o o l s  h a v e  a n  a u t o m a t  

p i n  s etter?

A  W a i t  a mi n u t e .  I s a y  w e  d o n ’ t, I b e l i e v e  C o o k  

S t a m p s  has one. 1 Just c o u l d n ' t  a n s w e r  that; I w o u l d  

r a t h e r  not.

HR. NEWTON: But one s c h o o l  does h a v e  a n  a u t o ­

m a t i c  p i n  setter?

q O u r  i n f o r m a t i o n  is that one of the w h i t e  s c h o o l s

has a n  a u t o m a t i c  p i n  setter.

We w i l l  v e r i f y  t h i s .



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Let's take some o t h e r  items up, items of o u t d o o r  

e q u i p m e n t .  Before we  go to o u t doors, c a n  bl i n d  p e o p l e  

a n d  de a f  p e o p l e  be taught to  type? I h a v e  a l w a y s  

b e e n  c o n f u s e d ?

A Yes, sir.

Q Both c a n  be taught?

A  Yes. We h a v e  t y p i n g  in al l  schools e x c e p t  the

N e g r o  deaf; we h a v e  a good typing program.

Q I s n ' t  there a room a t  the W h i t e  Blind S c h o o l

w h e r e  there is a r e g u l a r  c l a s s r o o m  w i t h  n o t h i n g  but 

t y p e w r i t e r s  w h e r e  p e o p l e  are taught to type?

A T h a t  is true in the o t h e r  s c h o o l s , too.

q  A n d  true a t  the W h i t e  Deaf S c h o o l ,  b o t h  h a v e

rooms?

A  A n d  the N e g r o  D e a f  has a room w i t h  n o t h i n g  but 

t y p e w r i t e r s  in it.

Q W o u l d  you be able to tell us h o w  m a n y  t y p e w r i t e r s

~~ I w o n ' t  pu r s u e  that.

There are t y p i n g  cl a s s e s  in the N e g r o  Deaf

S c h o o l ?

A Y e s .

Q W h y  isn't t y p i n g  o f f e r e d  at the N e g r o  B l i n d

S chool?



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A  I  d o n ' t  k n o w .  W e  j u s t  h a v e n ' t  g o t  a r o u n d  t o  i t ,  

a s  f a r  a s  I  k n o w ,

Q, N o w ,  d o  a n y  o f  t h e  s c h o o l s  h a v e  o n  t h e  p r e m i s e s

o r  a v a i l a b l e  t o  t h e  s t u d e n t s ,  a  s w i m m i n g  p o o l ?

A  A l l  o f  t h e m  h a v e  s w i m m i n g  p o o l s  e x c e p t  t h e  N e g r o  

B l i n d .

Y o u  s e e ,  t h a t  i s  a  g y m .

Q  T h e y  d o n 5 t  h a v e  a  g y m ?

A  N o ,  t h e y  a r e  t r a n s p o r t e d  a n d  u s ®  t h e  s a m e  g y m

t h r e e  t i m e s  a  w e e k .

Q  A t  t h e  N e g r o  D e a f  S c h o o l ?

A  T h a t ' s  r i g h t ,  u n d e r  s u p e r v i s i o n .

Q  B u t  t h e  o t h e r  t h r e e  h a v e  p o o l s  i n  t h e i r  g y m ?

A  T h a t ' s  r i g h t .

Q, N o w ,  i s  t h e r e  s o m e  s o r t  o f  a n  e x e r c i s e  b i c y c l e  a n

s t e a m  c a b i n e t ,  a n d  t h e s e  m a s s a g e  m a c h i n e s  a l l  a  p a r t  o f  

t h e  m a s s a g e  p r o g r a m  a t  t h e  w h i t e  d e a f ?

A  N o ,  s i r ,  t h e  w h i t e  b l i n d .  W e  d o n ' t  h a v e  i t  a t

t h e  w h i t e  d e a f .

Q  A l l  r i g h t .

Y o u  d o n ' t  h a v e  t h a t  a n y w h e r e  e l s e ?

A  N o ;  w e  h a v e  s o m e  P E  e q u i p m e n t  a t  o t h e r  p l a c e s ,

b u t  i t  i s  d i f f e r e n t  f r o m  w h a t  t h e  w h i t e  b l i n d  u s e .



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Q  B y  P E ,  p h y s i c a l  e d u c a t i o n ?

A  Y e s .

Q  A r e  a n y  o f  t h e  w h i t e  d e a f  s t u d e n t s  t r a n s p o r t e d

t ©  t h e  w h i t e  b l i n d  s c h o o l  t o  w o r k  w i t h  t h e s e  r o e s s a g e  

m a c h i n e s  a n d  s t e a m  c a b i n e t s ?

A  H o ,  s i r ;  w e  h a v e  m o r e  s t u d e n t s  t h e r e  n o w  t h a n

t h e  m a n  w h o  i s  t r a i n e d  t o  d o  t h a t  w o r k  c a n  d o .  W e  

h a v e  t o  s e l e c t  t h e m  n o w .

q  H o w ,  w o u l d  y o u  s a y  t h a t  e a c h  s c h o o l  h a s  p r o ­

p o r t i o n a t e l y  n o w ,  t a k i n g  i n t o  a c c o u n t  t h e  n u m b e r  o f  

s t u d e n t s  t h e r e ,  t h e  s a m e  a m o u n t  o f  o u t d o o r  r e c r e a t i o n a l  

e q u i p m e n t  l i k e  s w i n g s ?  W e  g o t  t h e  i m p r e s s i o n ,  o u r  i n ­

f o r m a t i o n  w a s  i t  j u s t  w a s n ' t  t h e  k i n d  t h a t  t h e  w h i t e  

s c h o o l s  i n v a r i a b l y  a r o u n d  t h e  b u i l d i n g s  w h e r e  s w i n g s  

a n d  s ©  o a  a r e ,  t h e y  w e r e  r a r e l y  t o  b e  s e e n  a r o u n d  t h e  

N e g r o  S c h o o l s .

W o u l d  y o u  s a y  t h a t  i s  g e n e r a l l y  t r u e ?

A  I  w o u l d  s a y  g e n e r a l l y ,  p r o p o r t i o n a t e l y ,  t o  t h e

n u m b e r  o f  s t u d e n t s  e n r o l l e d ,  t h e  H e g r o  s t u d e n t s  w e r e  

m u c h  b e t t e r  o f f .

T w o  y e a r s  a g o  t h e y  h a d  n o t h i n g ,  a n d  w e  t r i e d  t o  

b u i l d  t h e m  u p .

Q, T h e  N e g r o  B l i n d ?



9 6

A  Y e s .  T h e y  h a v e  t h e  b e s t  s e t  u p  o f  s a y  o n e  o f  o u r

s c h o o l s ,  c o u n t i n g  t h e  t o t a l  n u m b e r  o f  s t u d e n t s  o n  t h i s  

c a m p u s ,  3 1 5  a g a i n s t  1 7 1 ,  I  w o u l d  s a y  t h e r e  m a y  b e  m o r e  

e q u i p m e n t  h e r ® ,  b u t  1  d o n * t  b e l i e v e  t h e r e  i s ,  n o t  

m u c h .

H R .  N E W T O N :  W h e r e  d o  t h e y  p l a y  a t  t h e  N e g r o

B l i n d ?

q , I  w o n d e r  i f  y o u  m e a n  t h e  N e g r o  D e a f ?

A  W e  j u s t  b u i l t  a n d  c o m p l e t e d ,  w i t h  t h e  help o f

a l o t  o f  c o n t r i b u t i o n  a n d  t i t l e  1  m o n e y ,  w e  h a v e  J u s t  

b u i l t  a  r e c o m m e n d e d  p r o g r a m  t h e r e .

M R .  N E W T O N :  W E  a r e  t a l k i n g  a b o u t  o u t d o o r  f a c i ­

l i t i e s ,  a n d  t h e  r e a s o n  I  a s k  y o u  t h i s ,  1  w a s  j u s t  

t h e r e  l o o k i n g  a t  t h i s .  T h e r e  i s  j u s t  n o t  m u c h  o u t d o o r  

e q u i p m e n t  a t  t h e  N e g r o  B l i n d ?

A  W e  h a v e  a s  m u c h  o r  m o t ®  t h e r e  f o r  t h e  p r o p o r t i o n a t e  

n u m b e r  of s t u d e n t s  a s  w e  h a v e  a n y w h e r e  e l s e .

M R .  N E W T O N :  I  d o n ' t  k n o w  a b o u t  t h e  n u m b e r  o f  

s t u d e n t ® ,  b u t  y o u  d r i v e  d o w n  t h i s  s t r e e t ,  y o u  c a n  

s e a  t h e  b a s k e t b a l l  c o u r t  a m i  p l a y  f i e l d .  T h a t  J u s t  

i s n ' t  t h e r e  o v e r  a t  t h e  N e g r o  b l i n d .

A  W e  h a v e  j u s t  b u i l t  a  n e w  PE Program. Y o u  saw i t ,

o n e  t h a t  i s  f e n c e d  i n ,  a n d  w e  are developing a p la y -



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g r o u n d  o f f  f r o ®  i t ,  b u t  w e  h a v e  j u s t  g o t t e n  e q u i p m e n t  

a b  r a p i d l y  a s  w e  c a n  g e t  i t .

M R .  N E W T O N :  A s  o f  n o w ,  y o u  w o u l d n ' t  s a y ,  e v e n  

t a k i n g  i n t o  c o n s i d e r a t i o n  t h e  n u m b e r  o f  s t u d e n t s ,  y o u  

w o u l d n ' t  s a y  t h e r e  i s  o u t d o o r  p l a y  e q u i p m e n t  a t  t h e  

N e g r o  B l i n d  t h a t  t h e r e  i s  h e r e ?

A  T h a t  f u r n i s h e d  b y  p u b l i c  f u n d s  i s .

Q  A r e  y o u  s a y i n g  t h a t  s e m e  o f  t h e  e q u i p m e n t  w a s

c o n t r i b u t e d  b y  o u t s i d e  p e o p l e ?

A  Y e s ,  m o s t  o f  i t .

q  W h e r e  w o u l d  t h e  r e c o r d s  b e  t h a t  w o u l d  

A  S h o w  t h e  c o n t r i b u t i o n s ?

Q  Y e s ,  t h a t  w o u l d  s h o w  a l l  o f  t h e s e  c o n t r i b u t i o n s ?

A  K e l l ,  i t  w o u l d n ' t  e v e r  s h o w  u p  o n  o u r  o f f i c i a l  

r e c o r d ,  b e c a u s e  t h e s e  p e o p l e  a r e  i n d i v i d u a l s  a n d  

g r o u p s  a n d  o r g a n i s a t i o n s ,  a n d  p a r e n t - t e a c h e r s  o r g a n i s a ­

t i o n s  f r o m  t i m e  t o  t i m e ,  j u s t  s i m p l y  b u y  i t  a n d  b r i n g  

i t  h e r ®  a n d  a s k  u s  t o  i n s t a l l  i t ,  a n d  w e  i n s t a l l  i t .

I t  j u s t  w o u l d n ' t  s h o w  o n  o u r  r e c o r d s ,  

q  I s  t h e r e  a n y  w a y  w e  c o u l d  g e t  a  l i s t  o f  a l l

e q u i p m e n t  t h a t  h a s  b e e n  c o n t r i b u e d  t o  t h e  W h i t e  D e a f  

a n d  B l i n d  S c h o o l s  r a t h e r  t h a n  p a i d  f o r  o u t  o f  t h e  b u d g e t ?  

A  T h a t  w o u l d  b e  p r e t t y  d i f f i c u l t ,  1  d o n ' t  k n o w .
23



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M a y b e  w®  c o u l d *

ME* BRADLEY: Why not go a t  i t  the other way, 

the amount of playground equipment that has been pur­

chased by the school with public money and see how 

that stacks up.

MR. WHITE: And in s ta lle d  at  each school.

MR. BRADLEY: Yag; that would probably be 

e a s ie r  than what has been contributed.

MR. WHITE: That would be one way. We are 

hoping that the l i s t  we w i l l  get showing equipment 

a t  buildings broken down by place would indicate re­

c re ation al  equipment; that would be one way. The 

only trouble is 1 suppose there might be a lot of 

othe-r s t u f f  that wouldn't show up on that form, right?  

A Right.

ME. WHITE: We w i l l  pass that for the moment.

Q Now, in term® of in t e r io r  and how the dorms

and c lass rooms and so on are maintained, would you 

say that - -  and you have v is i t e d  a l l  of these things,

1 suppose, f r o m  time to time?

A  Each week.

Q Would you say that by and large, and in the

norm, the White Deaf School, in terms of i t s  dorrai-



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C o r i e s ,  i n f o r m s  o f  o t h e r  l i v i n g  r o o m s  a n d  p l a y  r o o m s ,  

i s  l i k e l y  C o  h a v e  m o r e  f l o w e r s ,  m o r e  d r a p e s ,  a n d  j u s t  

w o r e  c o m f o r t a b l e  I n s i d e ?

A  E i g h t .

Q  A n d  c l e a n e r ?

A  Y e s ,  1  w o u l d  s a y  t h a t .

q  A w l  w o u l d n *  t  y o u  s a y  t h i s  i s  t r u e  o f  t h e  B l i n d

S c h o o l s  t o o ,  t h e  W h i t e  B l i n d ,  a s  c o m p a r e d  t o  t h e  N e g r i

H i m ! ?

T h e r e  a r e  l i t t l e  f i n i s h i n g  t o u c h e s  i n  t h e s e  

s c h o o l s  t h a t  d o n ’ t  a p p e a r  i n  t h e  N e g r o  S c h o o l ?  I  a m  

n o t  s a y i n g  w h o  c a u s e d  i t ,  b u t  I  a m  a s k i n g  w h e t h e r  t h i  

i s  s o ?

A  W e l l ,  1  d o  k n e w  i t  i s  s o  h e r e ,  b e c a u s e  w e  h a d  t

s t a r t  f r o m  s c r a t c h  h e r e  t o  b u i l d  b e c a u s e  t h e y  h a d  b e e

f i r e t r a p s ,  w h e n  o t h e r ®  w e r e  e n j o y i n g  s o m e  r e l a t i v e l y  

■ o d e r n a e s s  a t  t h a t  t i m e ;  1  d o u b t  i f  1  c o u l d  r i g h t f u l 1  

s a y .

Q  Y o u  w o u l d  n o t  c o m m e n t  o n  t h e  b l i n d  s c h o o l s ,  y o u

o n l y  k n o w  a b o u t  t h e  d e a f  s c h o o l s ?

A  1  k n o w  j u s t  a s  s u c h  a b o u t  t h e  s c h o o l s  f o r  t h e

b l i n d .  T h e  n e w  d o r m i t o r i e s  a r e ,  i n  t h e  m a i n ,  i f  y o u  

e x c l u d e  o u r  n e w  o n e  d o w n  a t  t h i s  s c h o o l ,  u p  u n t i l  t h i



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y e a r ,  w e r e  s u p e r i o r ,  b u t  1  d o u b t  n o w  t h a t  t h e y  a r e  

m u c h  b e t t e r  e q u i p p e d  t h a n  t h e  o n e s  o n  t h e  o t h e r  c a m p u s .  

q  1  t h o u g h t  y o u  s a i d  y o u  w o u l d  a g r e e ?

A  O n  t h i s  c a m p u s  h e r e ,  t h a t  * s  r i g h t ,  e x c e p t  o n e

a r e ® .

1  w o u l d  l i k e  f o r  t h i s  t o  g o  i n  t h e  r e c o r d ,  i f  

y o u  d o n ' t  o b j e c t ;  t h e  w o r s t  s i t u a t i o n  i n  t h e  w h o l e  

i n s t i t u t e  e x i s t s  w i t h  o u r  8 6  c h i l d r e n  o u t  h e  r e  i n  

G r a c e  H a l l .  Y o u  c a n  g o  t h e r e  a n d  l o o k  a t  i t  f o r  y o u r  

s e l f ,  a n d  y o u  w i l l  f i n d  n o  o t h e r  p l a c e  - -  

q  T h i s  i s  o n  t h e  c a m p u s  o f  t h e  W h i t e  D e a f ?

A  T h a t ' s  r i g h t .

I t  i s  t h e  w o r s t  s i t u a t i o n  b y  f a r ,  a n d  y o u  c o n a a e  

o n  t h a t ,  h o w  much  w e  w e n t  f r o m  t h e r e  d i r e c t l y  d o w n  t o  

t h e  o t h e r  s c h o o l ,  a n d  h e  s a i d  w e  h a v e  a t  l e a s t  t h i r t y  

t o  f o r t y  p e r c e n t  m o r e  s p a c e  p e r  e a c h  i n d i v i d u a l  i n  t h e  

l i v i n g  a r e a  t h a n  w e  h a v e  f o r  t h a  c h i l d r e n  h e r e  o n

ated

t h i s  c a m p u s ,  y e t  t h e r e  h a v e  b e e n  n o  c o m p l a i n t s  r a i s e d

o n  t h a t ;  w e  h o p e  t o  c u r e  i t ,  b u t  w e  J u s t  h a v e n ' t  b e e n  

a b l e  t o  g a t  t o  e v e r y t h i n g .

W h a t  1  am  t r y i n g  t o  s a y ,  t h e r e  i s  s o w ®  g o o d ,  

b a d  a n d  i n d i f f e r e n t  i n  e a c h  a r e a  y o u  g o  i n t o ,  

q  G e t t i n g  b a c k  t o  t h i n g s  l i k e  c u r t a i n s  a n d  d r a p e s ,23



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and £lowers

A  Individual i n i t iative.

Q, Individual i n i t i a t i v e ?

A Yes, s i r .  We s o m e t i m e s  d o  b u y  m a t e r i a l .  W e

have never refused to b u y  material w h e r e  t h e y  w o u l d  

agree to get the materials made i n t o  c u r t a i n s .

Qi Me were concerned because a l t h o u g h  I k n o w  Helen

K e lie r  is  not necessarily  a pa r t  of this i n s t i t u t e ,  

treated the saa® way* there was p r e t t y  m u c h  u n i f o r m l t  

in terms of flowers in the w i n d o w ,  as if s o m e b o d y  

bought f i f t y  pots and put one in e a c h  w i n d o w ,  and I 

never saw anything ilk® that in the o t h e r  sch o o l ?

A  Y o u  go in that b u i l d i n g  o v e r  there, an d  Mrs.

S n e ll ,  she said she w i s h e d  y o u  w o u l d  come see w h a t  

they had. Y o u  w o u l d  be s u r p r i s e d  of the people that 

come in and see that and go a w a y  w i t h  tears in t h e i r  

ayes, and they can9 t w a i t  u n t i l  they get b a c k  home 

to send things. We have a p o l i c y  her®, I ha v e  n e v e r  

gone out f o r  public subscription to get a n y t h i n g ,  a n y  

«oaay, but you can81 h e l p  pe o p l e  d o i n g  things for a 

deaf “blind c h ild ,  and^they just are r a t h e r  extravagar^

with those children.

q Aren't Negroes who are m a d e  to att e n d ,  N e g r o



T 2 -S 2

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students who are made to attend the Negro Deaf and 

Negro Blind handicapped in the sense they might bene­

f i t  from the g i f t  that may  be showered on the white 

deaf and white blind? Af t e r  a l l ,  a child assigned to 

the White Deaf and White Blind is  benefited to the 

extent thet people made —  that they make contributio  

to those two schools, and i f  everything is  made more 

a t t r a c t i v e  in appearance and more comfortable, i t  

seems to me this f a l l s  unequally?

A Could you hold that a minute.

You asked for  the number of academic c l a s s ­

rooms in each school. We have f i f t e e n  primary, tweIv 

intermediate and s ix  advanced, and then there is one 

fo r  science lab.

In the Negro Deaf primary, seven, elementary,  

that is second and third, s ix ;  intermediate, fourth 

to  eighth grade, there is s ix .

White Blind, you have eight elementary and s ix

fo r  high school.

Negro Blind, you have four elementary and three 

high school.

q To return for a minute, the number of academic

classrooms, 1 notice froes this l i s t  there is  no scie

as

P
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nee



r

1 0 3

1 l a b  a t  t h e  N e g r o  D e a f ?

2 A  That is  true.

3 q  W h y  w o u l d  t h a t  b e ?

4 A  W e l l ,  w e  did n o t  h a v e  a  s c i e n c e  l a b  o u t  h e r e

5 u n t i l  t h i s  p a s t  y e a r .

6 q How did i t  h a p p e n  y o u  c h o s e  t h e  W h i t e  D e a f  t o

7 build i t?

8 A  The science lab?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A  The reason, M r .  S t r o n g  a t  t h a t  s c h o o l  f e l t  i t s

11 need; 1 asked him a b o u t  p u t t i n g  i n  s c i e n c e  w i t h  t h e

12 aoaey he had, a n d  he s a i d  h e  n e e d e d  t h e  o v e r h e a d

13 projectors and t h i s  o t h e r  a d d i t i o n  m e a n t  s o  m u c h  m o r e

14 and we allocated  i t  to e a c h  s c h o o l  o n  a  pro r a t a

15 b a s i s ,  except h e  g o t  n e a r l y  t w i c e  a s  m u c h  a s  t h e  o t h e r

16 schools, but h e  j u s t  d i d n ’ t  c h o o s e  s c i e n c e .

17 q  W h a t  a b o u t  t h e  s p e e c h  t h e r a p y ,  w a s  t h a t  r o o m

18 o n e  t h a t  w e  d i s c u s s e d  e a r l i e r ?

19 A Audiology t r a i n i n g ?

20 Q  Y e s .

21 A  N o ,  a u d i t o r y  t r a i n i n g  a n d  a u d i o l o g i c a l  s e r v i c e s

22 i s  p r o v i d e d  a l l  t h e  c h i l d r e n  a n d  t h a t  i s  a t  t h e

23 s p e e c h  a n d  h e a r i n g  c e n t e r s .



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Q  H o w  come there is oo s p e e c h  t h e r a p y  room at 

the N e g r o  De a f  S c h o o l ?

A  W e  h a v e  a s p e e c h  t h e r a p y  room there.

Q  It is not listed o n  he r e ?

A  He is p r o b a b l y  u s i n g  it f o r  a c l a s s r o o m ,  because

w e  ha v e  b e e n  s t r u g g l i n g  e v e r y  w a y  to get a replacement 

to open the school. Eight at the last m i n u t e  ou r  teaclj 

w a s  o f f e r e d  a n o t h e r  job an d  he went.

Q Y o u  lost a teacher?

A  Yes, and w e  are t r y i n g  d e s p e r a t e l y  e v e r y w h e r e  w«

k n o w  of, we are t r y i n g  to get a replacement.

Q, Y o u  h a v e n * t  c h o s e n  to t r a n s p o r t  t h e m  o v e r  to

be t a u g h t  here?

A Well, the sp e e c h  t h e r a p i s t  he r e  in this s c h o o l  

is l imited o n l y  to the i n t e r m e d i a t e  s t u d e n t s ;  we are 

-- y o u  o u g h t  t o  be in m y  shoes to h e a r  h o w  these 86 

c h i l d r e n  need s p e e c h  therapy, and we h a v e n ' t  b e e n  

a b l e  to p r o v i d e  it.

Q  But the N egroes are not getting a t t e n t i o n  in

this fi e l d  -- a r e  not g e t t i n g  a n y  at all, b e c a u s e  the}? 

lost t h e i r  teacher?

A  W e l l ,  the truth of it is there are on l y  a b o u t

25 or  30 g e t t i n g  it here. We w o u l d  be g i v i n g  the



d o w n  t h e  i re  i f  w e  c o u l d  f i n d  a  t e a c h e r .

Q  O n e  o t h e r  t h i n g  1  n o t i c e d  f r e e  t h i s  l i s t  i s  t h s

o n l y  i n  t h e  i i e g r ©  S c h o o l s  i s  i t  i n d i c a t e d  t h a t  g r a d e s  

a r e  t a u g h t  t o g e t h e r  i n  t h e  s a m e  r o o m ,  a n d  a l l  g r a d e s  

i n  t h e  M e g r o  B l i n d  S c h o o l  a r e  t a u g h t  t o g e t h e r  w i t h  

a n o t h e r  g r a d e  i n  t h e  r o o m ?

A  I s  t h a t  r i g h t ?

q  I t  s e e m s  t h a t  i n  t w o  a n d  t h r e e ,  f i v e  a n d  s i x ,

n i n e  a n d  t e n ,  a n d  e l e v e n  a n d  t w e l v e ,  s o  e v e r y b o d y  i s  

w i t h  s o m e o n e  e l s e .

1  was wondering h o w  t h a t  c a m e  a b o u t ?

A Of c o u r s e ,  I  t h i n k  y o u  p o s s i b l y  k n o w  y o u r  a n s w i

B a c k  before w e  h a d  c o n s o l i d a t i o n  o f  s c h o o l s ,  a l l .  

s c h o o l s  h a d  a  t e a c h e r  t e a c h i n g  a s  m a n y  a s  f o u r  a n d  f j .  

g r a d e s  in s o m e  s c h o o l s  s e a t t e r e d  o y e r  A l a b a m a ,  b u t  y o u  

will find s c h o o l s  s t i l l  r e m a i n i n g  i n  A l a b a m a ,  a  s m a l l ,  

n u m b e r  i n  t h e  high s c h o o l  w h e r e  t h e y  h a v e  g r a d e s  t o ­

g e t h e r ;  I  g u e s s  p r o b a b l y  t w e n t y - f i v e  p e r c e n t  o f  o u r  

public schools h a v e  g r a d e s  t o g e t h e r ;  t h e r e  j u s t  

w e r e n ' t  e n o u g h ,  7 5  s t u d e n t s  o v e r  t h e r e ,  y o u  c o u l d n ' t  

p r o v i d e  a  t e a c h e r  f o r  e a c h  g r a d e .

Q  B u t  t h e  p o i n t  i s  a t  n e i t h e r  o f  t h e  W h i t e  S c h o o l

a r e  a n y  c l a s s e s  b e i n g  t a u g h t  t o g e t h e r ?



A  S a c s u s e  w e  h a v e  e n o u g h  stu d e n t s .

Q  T h e  N e g r o  S c h o o l  is o n l y  a b o u t  t h i r t y  -- the 

N e g r o  D e a f  S c h o o l  h a s  m o r e  s t u d e n t s  t h a n  the W h i t e  

B l i n d ,  a n d  the N e g r o  D e a f  S c h o o l  s t i l l  ha s  c l a s s e s  

b u n c h e d  t o g e t h e r ?

A  H o w  m&ny of t h o s e ?

Q  T w o  o f  t h o s e ,  a n d  the W h i t e  Deaf S c h o o l  does

not?

A  W h e r e  d o  y o u  f i n d  they are gr o u p e d  t o gether?

Q  I  t h i n k  t h i s  i s  w h a t  y o u r  s e c r e t a r y  w a s  t r y i n g

t o  e x p l a i n .

T h i s  w e a n s  the s e c o n d  and third grade are 

b e i n g  t a u g h t  together?

A  I n  s i x  r o o m s ,  n o t  together. T h e y  are b e i n g

t a u g h t  i n  s i x  r o o m s .  T h e r e  is not a n y  cl a s s  d o w n  

t h e r e  t a u g h t  t o g e t h e r .  She is s a y i n g  that the se c o n d  

a n d  t h i r d  g r a d e s  a r e  w h a t  they ca l l  e l e m e n t a r y .

Q, W h a t e v e r  t h a t  is, a®  I right in these?

A  f o u  are right i n  these.

q  S o  the N e g r o  Deaf, there is n o b o d y  b e i n g  ta u g h t

t o g e t h e r ?

A  N o  two cla s s e s  b e i n g  taught together.

Q  1 w o u l d  s u p p o s e  y o u  w o u l d  a g r e e  this i n d i c a t e s



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b o w ®  h o w  o r  a n o t h e r  a t  t h e  N e g r o  B l i n d  S c h o o l ,  i s  i t  

l i k e l y  t h e y  n e e d  w o r e  c l a s s r o o m *  t h e r e  t o  a v o i d  s o m e

o f  t h i s ?

A  N o ,  t h a t  i s n ' t  t h e  a n s w e r .

Q  L e t  m e  a s k  y o u  a  q u e s t i o n .

I t  s a y s  s e c o n d  a n d  t h i r d  t o g e t h e r ,  d o e s  t h a t  

m e a n  t h a t  t h e  s a m e  t e a c h e r  i s  t e a c h i n g  t w o  g r a d e s ?

A  T h a t  i s  c o r r e c t .

q  S o  t h a t  i t  i s  a  s h o r t a g e  o f  t e a c h e r s ?

A  N o ,  s i r .

q  O r  i s  a  s h o r t a g e  o f  s p a c e ?

A  S h o r t a g e  o f  s t u d e n t s .  I f  y o u  s e p a r a t e  t h e m  a n d

a d d  a  t e a c h e r  f o r  t h e  s e c o n d  g r a d e  a n d  a  t e a c h e r  f o r  

t h e  t h i r d  g r a d ® ,  e a c h  t e a c h e r  w o u l d n ' t  h a v e  b u t  f o u r  

o r  f i v e  s t u d e n t s ,  a n d  y o u  c a n *  t  j u s t i f y  a  u n i t  l a s s  t  

t a n  © r  t w e l v e ,  a n d  t h e r e f o r e ,  y o u  h a v e  t o  c o m b i n e  t w o  

g r a d e s .

q  O n e  t h i n g  w ®  h a v e  n o t  r e q u e s t e d ,  a n d l  t h i n k  w e

w o u l d  l i k e  t o  a t  t h i s  p o i n t , i s  f o r  e a c h  s c h o o l  f o r  

• a c h  g r a d e  t h e  n u a b e r  o f  s t u d e n t s  i n  t h a t  g r a d e .  W e  

h a v e  e l e m e n t a r y ,  i n t e r m e d i a t e  a n d  a d v a n c e d ,  a n d  w e  

w o u l d  l i k e  t h a t  b r o k e n  d o w n  w i t h  g r a d e s  i n t o  i n t e r -  

n e d l a t e  a n d  h o w  m a n y  s t u d e n t s  i n  t h e  g r a d e s .



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MR. BRADLEY: I d o n ' t  t h i n k  they h a v e  it set up 

like that.

MR* WRITE: S o m e b o d y  m u s t  k n o w  w h o  is in the 

s e c o n d  an d  third.

I  want to  find out how m a n y  s t u d e n t s  are in the 

s e c o n d  and third grade that are b e i n g  t a u g h t  together,, 

That is  what I r e a l ly  want to find out?

A  We co u l d  go o v e r  there and I could sh o w  you

i n  Grace R a i l ,  we h a v e  three b e g i n n e r  c l asses, these 

c h i l d r e n  h e r e  f o r  the fi r s t  time.

We have those in three classes. How, you don't: 

jump from there and say this t e a c h e r  teaches first 

grad® and this teacher se c o n d  grade; they group the 

children according to  th eir  need of intensive hearing 

therapy o r  speech.

You see, g e ttin g  language ov e r  to the de a f  is 

your d i f f i c u l t  area, and they gr o u p  c h i l d r e n  by 

teachers that have the m o s t  c o m m o n  thing in common, 

and you don't tr y  to live up t© w h e t h e r  or not t h e y  

ara performing on a second or third grade level, 

q  Let me a s k  you this, Mr. Gentry, and I t h i n k  w<

w i l l  leave this  point.

Th e  need to c o m b i n e  c lasses in a single room



109

w i t h  a s i n g l e  t e a c h e r  w o u l d  m e a n  then, if the a n s w e r  is 

it i s  b e c a u s e  t h e r e  is a s h o r t a g e  of stu d e n t s ,  1 guess 

t h a t  t a k i n g  t o g e t h e r  t h e  total n u m b e r  of people, f o r  

e x a m p l e ,  i n  the N e g r o  Blind S c h o o l  w h e r e  the s e c o n d  

a n d  third, a n d  f i f t h  and si x t h  are c o m b i n e d ,  yo u  s h o u l d 

n o t  f i n d  t h a t  t h e  f i f t h  a n d  s i x t h  grade, f o r  e x a m p l e ,  

i n  t h e  N e g r o  B l i n d  S chool, should ha v e  s o m e t h i n g  like

t h i r t y - f i v e  s t u d e n t s  i n  t h e r e ?

1  k n o w  t h i s  i s  o v e r ,  b u t  it shouldn* t be m o r e

t h a n  w h a t ?

A  T w e n t y *

Q  I f  y o u  w e n t  to t h e  wh i t e  s c h o o l  w h e r e  the second 

a n d  t h i r d  g r a d e s  are ta u g h t  s e p a r a t e l y ,  I  w o u l d  not e x ­

p e c t  t o  f i n d  ei g h t  s t u d e n t s  in the s e c o n d  grade, w o u l d  

I t  1  w o u l d  e x p e c t  t o  find s o m e t h i n g  a p p r o a c h i n g  tw e n t y

a g a i n ?

A  Y e s ,

q  M o w ,  a t  t h e  N e g r o  B l i n d  Sc h o o l ,  w e  d i s c u s s e d

t h e  v o c a t i o n a l  c o u r s e s  t h a t  w a r ®  o f f e r e d ,  and 1  t hought  

y o u  s a i d  t h e y  w a r ®  m u s i c ,  a r t s  a n d  c rafts, and H o m e  

E c o n o m i c s .

W h a t  is taught in Horae E c o n o m i c s ?

A  Mr s .  k i d d l e  i s  one of the m o s t  e x p e r i e n c e d



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t e a c h e r s  in the S t a t e  and she teaches a c c o r d i n g  to 

the S t a t e  plan.

Q  It is the same course as in the w h i t e  sc h o o l ?

A  S a m e  courses e v e r y w h e r e .

q We received soma i n f o r m a t i o n  that some of the

children are being taught m o p  m a k i n g  and c h a i r  c a n ­

ing?

A T h a t  is in I n d u s t r i a l  Arts.

Q Is that part of y o u r  arts and crafts?

A  Yes, and e v e n  t h o u g h  c o n n e c t e d  w i t h  Horae

E c o n o m i c s .

Q A r e  the W h i t e  Blind a l s o  taught m o p  m a k i n g  and 

c h a i r  ca n i n g ?  O r  the Wh i t e  Deaf?

A  Of course, the deaf is not, b e c a u s e  that is

mainly a blind o c c u p a t i o n ,  bu t  I d o n ' t  b e l i e v e  u n t i l  

last year t h e y  did do that up there, but I d o n ' t  

believe they are doing it this year.

Q But the Negro Blind is d o i n g  m o p  m a k i n g  and

chair caning?

A  Y e s .

A n d  I fu s s e d  at them g e t t i n g  a w a y  fr o m  that, 

too, b u t  w e  have to get them o n t o  some other things.

I w o u l d  go up to the o t h e r  s c h o o l  ana see them teach!



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•  i n p i e  e l e c t r i c i t y ,  m e t a l  w o r k  e n d  t h i n g s  l i k e  t h a t ,  

d i f f e r e n t  b e n c h e s  t o  g i v e  t h e n  s o m e  e x p e r i e n c e .

Q  W e  w o u l d  l i k e  a n o t h e r  l i s t  s h o w i n g  t h e  n u m b e r

a t  e a c h  i n s t i t u t e  - -  l e t  m e  g e t  a t  t h i s  t h e  o t h e r

w a y .

I s  t h e  m a i n t e n a n c e  s t a f f  a  c e n t r a l  s t a f f  t h a t

o p e r a t e s  o u t  o f  y o u r  o f f i c e ?

A  Y e s .

Q, T h e y  a r e  d e t a i l e d  t o  g o  t o  a n y  o n e  o f  t h e  

f o u r  s c h o o l  s i t e s  w h e n  s o m e t h i n g  n e e d s  t o  b e  r e p a i r e d  

o r  p a i n t e d ?

A  T h e  m a i n t e n a n c e  s u p e r v i s o r  u n d e r  M r .  P a t t o n ' s

d i r e c t i o n  g o e s  o u t  w i t h  e v e r y  p r i n c i p a l  t o  l o o k  a t  

t h e  c o n d i t i o n  o f  t h e  c l a s s r o o m s ,  w h e t h e r  t h e y  h a v e  

a n y  d o o r s ,  w i n d o w s ,  o r  a n y t h i n g  e l s e  t h a t  n e e d s  t o  b «  

p a i n t e d ,  w h e t h e r  t h e y  n e e d  p a i n t i n g  w o r k ,  a n d  t h e n  h «  

e w e s  b a c k  a n d  t h e y  d e c i d e  a n d  m a k e  o u t  a  s c h e d u l e .

W e  h a v e  a  s t a f f  o f  t h r e e  p a i n t e r s ,  t w o  c a r p e n t a  

t w o  p l u m b e r s  a n d  a  h e l p e r ,  a n d  t w o  e l e c t r i c i a n s ,  a n d  

t h e y  d e c i d e ,  a n d  I  t h i n k  e v e r y b o d y  i s  r e a l  h a p p y  o n  

t h a t ,  t h e y  d o n ' t  h a v e  t o  b e  i n  c o m p e t i t i o n  w i t h  o n e  

s c h o o l  g e t t i n g  s o m e t h i n g  d o n e  o v e r  a n o t h e r .  W e  

s p e n t  - -  t h e y  f u s s  w i t h  m e  a b o u t  i t ,  I  w i l l  b e  f r a n k

r s

23



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?

w i t h  you* it needed it, but t h e y  sp e n t  m o r e  time at 

the N e g r o  D e a f  S c h o o l  the last two su m m e r s  on things 

t h e y  c o u l d  not d o  In the w i n t e r t i m e  than a l l  t h e r e a t  

of © u r  b u i l d i n g s ,  b u t  it was needed there badly.

Q  T h e  N e g r o  De a f  S c h o o l  n e e d e d  it badly?

A  But y o u  w a l k  in there, that is one of the best

c l a s s r o o m  b u i l d i n g s  we  h a v e  on a n y  campus. There is 

no c o m p a r i s o n  b e t w e e n  it and the c l a s s r o o m s  on this 

c a m p u s .

q  W h a t  kind of w o r k e r s  w o u l d  be e m p l o y e d  o n l y  at a

p a r t i c u l a r  i n s t i t u t i o n ?  F o r  e x a m p l e ,  the teachers 

w h ©  are w o r k i n g  at  a school, and there w o u l d  be h o u s e ­

m o t h e r s  f o r  the dorms. A r e  there a n y  o t h e r  groups 

t h a t  w o r k  o n l y  at one school?

A  W e l l ,  y o u  ha v e  y o u r  d o m e s t i c  help, w e  c a l l  It, 

bu t  h a v e  y o u r  J a nitors and ma i d s .  We h a v e  t o  h a v e  mu id 

s e r v i c e  here b e c a u s e o f  the fact that a lot of things 

c h i l d r e n  c a n ' t  do. A l l  resident schools have the 

same things we h a v e  here, and then yo u  have y o u r  -- 

e a c h  one —  we h a v e  six k i tchens and d i n i n g  rooms.

E a c h  one of th e ®  has a s u p e r v i s o r  for the p r e p a r a t i o n  

of fo o d ,  and they have their h e l p  in p r e p a r a t i o n  

a n d  s e r v i n g  of food.



P
113

1 Q  C a n  we have, juat in total, the t o t a l  n u m b e r

2 of these people w h o  ate a s s i g n e d  to a p a r t i c u l a r

3 p l a c e  s o  t h a t  that w o u l d  in v o l v e  h o u s e  m o t h e r s  --

4 A  We h a v e  o n  the records that we h a v e  turned ovei *

5 to Mr .  B r a d l e y ,  shows this b y  s chools, the n u m b e r  of

6 t e a c h e r s ,  the n u m b e r  of jan i t o r s ,  the n u m b e r  of hous«

7 par e n t s .

8 q  T h a t  is a v a i l a b l e  fr o m  one of these records?

9 A  Yes, sir.

10 q  We w i l l  m o v e  o n  to some of the l e s s e r  important ■

11 t h i n g s .

12 Just in terms a g a i n  of ou t s i d e  a p p e a r a n c e ;  it

13 w a s  o u r  r e c o l l e c t i o n  w h e n  we looked at the school,

14 o r  o u r  o p i n i o n ,  o n  w h i c h  I w o u l d  like to h a v e  y o u

15 a g r e e  o r  d i s a g r e e ,  that the lawns, by  and large, at

16 the W h i t e  S c h o o l  -- Wh i t e  Deaf an d  W h i t e  Bl i n d  School La,

17 s e e m e d  to m e  to ba b e t t e r  cared f o r  than those at

18 the Ifegro S c h o o l s ,  and w i t h o u t  s a y i n g  w h a t  is to

19 b l a m e ,  1 Just w a n t  to a s k  y o u  in terms of e x t e r n a l

20 a p p e a r a n c e ,  w h e t h e r  the Wh i t e  Bl i n d  S c h o o l  and W h i t e

21 D e a f  S c h o o l s  are not m o r e  a t t r a c t i v e  I n s t i t u t i o n s  thi tn

22 the N e g r o  D e a f  and N e g r o  Blind S c h o o l s ?

23 A M y  a n s w e r  to that w o u l d  be as f a r  aa o u r  mainti i-



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a s m : *  s t a f f  f o r  g r o u n d s ,  w e  h a v e  a  g r o u n d s  c r e w  u n d e r  

1  b e l i e v e  t h e r e  a r e  f i v e  w o r k i n g  o n  t h e  g r o u n d s .  I f  

y o u  w e r e  t o  a s k  t h e n  a  q u e s t i o n ,  t h e y  p u t  j u s t  a s  

s u c h  t i n e ,  t h e  s a n e  s c h e d u l e  o f  m o w i n g  t h e  l a w n ,  t h e  

f a c t  t h a t  t r e e s  h a v e  b e e n  o u t  h e r e  t h i s  l o n g  i s  

t h i s ,  t h i s  i s  a  h u n d r e d  y e a r  i n s t i t u t e ,  a n d  t h e  t r e e s  

o u t  t h e r e  a r e  J u s t  b e g i n n i n g ,  I  t h i n k  t h e  c a m p u s  d o w n  

t h e r e  i s  a s  n i c e  l o o k i n g  a s  a n y  o f  t h e m .  Y o u  h a v e  t q  

t a s t e  i n t o  a c c o u n t  h o w  l o n g  a  s c h o o l  h a s  b e a n  t h e r e .

T h a t  h a s  s o m e t h i n g  t o  d o  w i t h  i t .

q I know t h e y  a r e  s u p p o s e d  t o  s p e n d  t h e i r  t i m e

e q u a l l y ?

A  T h e y  d o ,  t o o .

q  B u t  t h i s  i s  w h a t  1  w a s  t r y i n g  t o  g e t  a t ,  y o u

w o u l d  n o t  s a y  t h a t  t h e  l a w n  d o w n  t h e r e ,  t h e y  a r e  n o t  

l a w n s ,  t h e y  a r e  j u s t  s t u b b y  g r a s s ,  a n d  o u t  h e r e  a n d  

a t  o t t e r  w h i t e  s c h o o l s ,  t h e r e  w a s  s o m e  a t t e m p t  t o  

k e e p  g r a s s  g r o w i n g  r e g u l a r l y ?

A  W e l l  - -

q  X  d o n ' t  w a n t  y o u  t o  c o n d e m n  y o u r  o w n  m a i n t e ­

n a n c e  s t a f f ?

A  l a ®  n o t ,  b e c a u s e  t h e y  a r e  p u t t i n g  a s  m u c h

e f f o r t  i n  —  w e  d o n ’ t  l o o k  a t  o n e  s c h o o l  a n d  s a y  w e



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want you to do less a t  th is  school than yeu do the 

other; we want every school to be maintained as best  

they can be.

Q Are there any Negroes on your maintenance s t a f f

in the terms of people we are talking about?

A Yea.

Q You don't think there would be a tendency on

the part of your maintenance s t a f f ,  simply because 

of who tireae in s t itu tio n s  have, and perhaps because 

your o f f i c e  is here, to give more care to those placet 

than so®® of the other places?

A No, s i r ,  I am not g u i l t y ,  and I haven't seen

any evidence of Mr. Patton, who is  the f i r s t  man 

adm inistratively  responsible to th at,  would attempt

th at.

There is sore fussing goes on about giving  

a tte n tio n  to this campus than any we have, 

q With reference to dormitories, the children are

separated in terms of older children from younger 

children, and boys fro® g i r l s , I suppose?

A Yes.

q Are there four dormitories, normally at  each

school, or more than four?



A  Well, it d e p e n d s  on h o w  m a n y  s t u d e n t s  are there. 

L e t ' s  s t a r t  w i t h  N e g r o  b l i n d  a n d  cane on down.

T h e r e  is one b r a n d  new d o r m i t o r y .

The o t h e r s  h a v e  b e e n  reworked. T h e r e  is one 

d o r m i t o r y  to take care of a l l  the girls. T h e  is a re 

a b o u t  t h i r t y  o r  t h i r t y - f i v e  girls.

Q  A l l  girls are in one d o r m i t o r y ?

A  Yes, sir, they ar e  p r i v a t e  rooms. E v e n  the 

little girls.

Q  Y o u  m e a n  the girl has h e r  pr i v a t e  room?

A  Mo, t h e y  are not w h a t  yo u  c a l l  b a r r a c k s  type.

T h e  little f ellows h a v e  to ha v e  them open, y o u  c a n ' t  

h a v e  them in  pr i v a t e  rooms.

Y o u  h a v e  a d o r m i t o r y  f o r  the s m a l l  boys an d  a 

d o r m i t o r y  f o r  the large boys.

T h e n  y o u  come -- 

Q Just a m i n u t e .

A l l  the girls are in one d o r m i t o r y ,  there is a

s e p a r a t e  d o r m i t o r y  f o r  y o u n g e r  boys and one f o r  olde r

boys?

A  Yes.

q In the girls dorm, h o w  m a n y  girls are in a

room?



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A  T h r e e .

Q, W o u l d  y o u  k n o w  w h e t h e r  i n  e a c h  r o o m ,  f o r

e x a m p l e ,  e a c h  g i r l  h a s  a  b u r e a u  o f  h e r  o w n ,  c l o s e t  

o f  t i e r  o w n ,  a  m i r r o r  o f  h e r  o w n ?

A  1  t h i n k  e a c h  o n e  h a s  a  p l a c e  t o  p u t  i t s  o w n

t h i n g s .  I n  t h a t  p a r t i c u l a r  d o r m i t o r y  - -  

q  D ©  y o u  k n o w  a s  a  f a c t ,  o r  p e r h a p s  y o u  d o n ' t ,  1  

d o n ' t  w a n t  t o  q u e s t i o n  y o u  a b o u t  t h i n g s  y o u  d o n ' t

k n o w ?

A  1  w o u l d n ’ t  w a n t  t o  g o  o n  r e c o r d  w i t h o u t  g o i n g

a n d  l o o k i n g  a g a i n .

I  s a y  t h e i r  c l o t h e s  a r e  h u n g  i n  c l o s e t s ,  b u t  

w h e t h e r  t h e y  u s ®  e a c h  o n e  i n d i v i d u a l l y ,  I  w o u l d n ' t

w a n t  t o  a n s w e r  t h a t .

A ®  f a r  a s  b o y ®  a r e  c o n c e r n e d ,  1  t h i n k  o n e  o f

t h e m  —  e a c h  o n e  o f  t h e ®  d o e s  h a v e  a  p l a c e  t o  p u t

h i ®  o w n  c l o t h e s .

q  I t  i s  n o t  j u s t  a  c l o s e t  i n  t h e s e  h o u s e s ?

A  I t  a a y  b e  - -  t b e w a y  mo®  t  o f  t h a t  i s  d e s i g n e d ,

a i l  s c h o o l s  1  h a v e  b e e n  i n ,  b e t w e e n  t h e  b e d s ,  i t  i s  

a c c o r d i n g  t o  £ h ®  s e p a r a t i o n ,  w h e r e  y o u  d o n ' t  h a v e  

p r i v a t e  r o o m s ,  y o u  h a v e  t h i s  c a b i n e t  b u i l t  w i t h  a  

h a n g e r  i n s i d e  a n d  s h e l v e s  i n  i t  t o  p u t  c l o t h e s  i n .



n a

I t  i s  not n e c e s s a r i l y  a b u i l t - i n  closet.

Q  W e  p e r h a p s  w o u l d  w a n t  t o  e x p l o r e  this q u e s t i o n  

of w h e t h e r  f i e g r o  c h i l d r e n  i n  t h e  K e g r o  S c h o o l s  h a v e  

a s  m u c h  c o m f o r t  In terns of c h i l d r e n  to a room, 

c l o s e t s ,  b u r e a u s  a n d  so on, as d o  t h e  c h i l d r e n  in 

the w h i t ©  i n s t i t u t i o n s ,  but I do n ' t  k n o w  if It is 

a u c h  v a l u e  t o  g o  i n t o  t h i s  w i t h  you, b e c a u s e  o b ­

v i o u s l y  y o u  c a n ' t  s t a y  o n  t o p  of it, s o  w e  m a y  try 

a n d  d e p o s e  s o m e o n e ,  p e r h a p s  e a c h  p r i n c i p a l  i n d i v i d u a l l y ,  

w h o  w o u l d  t h e n  b e  a b l e  t o  s a y  w h a t  I s  g o i n g  o n  in 

h i s  s h o p ?

A T h a t  w o u l d  b e  t h e  be s t  w a y  to get that, bu t  

s u f f i c e  i t  h e r e  t o  s a y  if we w o u l d  to come d o w n  to 

t h e  w h i t ©  p l a c e ,  i f  t h e  p r i n c i p a l  was s i t t i n g  h e r e ,  he 

w o u l d  s a y  1  h a v e  t h e  m o s t  d e p l o r a b l e  c o n d i t i o n  w i t h  

a y  g i r l s .  I  h a v e  7 5  girls in one d o r m i t o r y ,  w h e r e a s  

i n  n o  o t h e r  s c h o o l  d o  we have that m a n y ;  f o r  i n stance, 

i a  t h e  H e g r o  D e a f ,  t h e  same n u m b e r  in two d o r m i t o r i e u ,

© l i e  u p s t a i r s  a n d  o n e  d o w n s t a i r s ,  and the o l d e r  girls 

i n  a s e p a r a t e  one.

Q  I s n ' t  it true a d o r m i t o r y  m a y  be wr y  big? M a y

be y o u  d o  have 75 girls In one d o r m i t o r y ,  but it m a y  

be the d o r m i t o r y  is b i g  e n o u g h  to a c c o m m o d a t e  s e v e n t y -



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f i v e  g i r l s *  s o  i t  r o s i l y  d e p e n d s  o n  t h e  r o o m s  i n s i d e  

t h e  b u i l d i n g ?

A  T h a t  i s  t r u e *

Q  Y o u  w o u l d n *  t  s a y  b y a n d  l a r g e  t h e  f a c i l i t i e s  a t  

t h e  W h i t e  S c h o o l s ,  o r  w o u l d  y o u  s a y  t h a t  t h e  f a c i ­

l i t i e s  a t  t h e  W h i t e  S c h o o l s  p r o v i d e  m o r e  i n  t e r m s  

o f  p e r s o n a l  t h i n g s  t o  t h e  s t u d e n t s *  i n  t e r m s  o f  

y o u  h a v e  s e m e  c l o s e t g  b u r e a u s ,  y o u r  d i l d  r e n  u s i n g  

o n e  b a t h r o o m  a n d  s o  o n ?

A  N o *  s i r .

1 w o u l d  h a v e  t o  g o  b a c k  a n d  t e l l  y o u  t h e  m o s t  

d e p l o r a b l e  c o n d i t i o n s  e x i s t i n g  i n  t h i s  a r e a  i s  t h i s  

c a m p u s *  1  c o u l d  c i t e  y o u  t h e  g o o d  o n e s .  T h e r e  i s  

n o  c o n p a r i a o n  b e t w e e n  t h e  p l a c e  w h e r e  o u r  s m a l l  

b o y s  a n d  g i r l s  h e r e  l i v e  a n d  t h e  n e w  m o d e r n i s t i c  

d o r m i t o r i e s  t h a t  t h e  N e g r o  D e a f  l i v e  i n ,  b u t  a f t e r  

a l l  i s  s a i d  a n d  d o n ® ,  t h e y  l i v e d  d o w n  t h e  e  f i f t e e n  

y e a r s  w i t h  s l o t  b e t t e r  d o r m i t o r y  f a c i l i t y  t h a n  y o u  

h a v e  u p  h a r e ;  a m ?  w e  c a m e  a l o n g  w i t h  a  b o n d  i s s u e  

a w l  b u i l t  s o m e  h e r ®  a n d  w e  a r e  b u i l d i n g  s o m e  d o w n  

t h e r e  n o w .  Y o u  c a n ’ t  k e e p  t h e m  e v e n  a t  o n e  t i m e ,  

q  I s  i t  t r u e  t h a t  f ey  a n d  l a r g e  —  d o  a l l  c h i l d  r e

h a v e  b e d ® ,  o n e  b e d  p e r  c h i l d ?



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A Y e s ,  s i r .

I s  t h e r e  a n y  s i t u a t i o n  w h e r e  m o r e  t h a n  o n e  

c h i l d  h a s  t o  h e  i n  o n e  b e d  b e c a u s e  o f  t h e  s h o r t a g e ?

A  N o ,  s i r .

q  W a s  t h e r e  a  s i t u a t i o n  l a s t  y e a r  w h e r e  t h e r e

w e r e  t w o  N e g r o  c h i l d r e n  i n  o n e  b e d ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r .

Q  T h e r e  w a s ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r .

q  T h a t  h a s  b e e n  c o r r e c t e d ?

A  T h a t  i s  s o m e t h i n g  t h a t  g o t  a w a y  f r o m  m e ,  a n d

1  h a v e  t a l k e d  t o  t h e  p a r e n t s  a b o u t  i t ,  a n d  t h e

p r i n c i p a l  a n d  I  t a l k e d  t o  o u r  E x e c u t i v e  C o m m i t t e e  o i :  

o u r  B o a r d ,  a n d  1  s a i d  w h a t  a r e  w e  g o i n g  t o  d o ;  l e t ' *  

g e t  b y  s o m e  w a y .  T h i s  p r i n c i p a l ,  j u s t  a s  y o u  w o u l d  

h a v e ,  w h o  am  I  t o  t e l l  t h e  d i I d  y o u  h a v e  t o  g o  h o m e , ,

w e  h a v e  n o  p l a c e  f o r  y o u .

Y e s ,  w e  h a v e  s t a l l e d  i t  u p  h e r e  a n d  a t  t h e  

s a w ®  t i m e  h a  w a s  g e t t i n g  o v e r l o a d e d .  1  d i d n ’ t  k n o w

u n t i l  t h ®  d a y  s c h o o l  o p e n e d  h o w  m a n y  h e  h a d  a c c e p t e <

A t  t h #  s a m e  t i m e ,  h e  w a s  d o i n g  t h a t ,  w e  l e f t ,  I  k n  

t w e l v e  f o r  s u r e ,  a n d  s i x t e e n  o r  s e v e n t e e n  w h o  a r e  

w a i t i n g  w ®  s h o u l d  h a v e  t a k e n ,  w e  w i l l  h a v e  t h e m  a t



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horn* t h i s  y e a r  b e c a u s e  w e  d i d  n o t  p r o p o s e  t o  c r o w d  

t h e m  u p .  Y e t  w e  g e t  r e p e r c u s s i o n s  f o r  t h a t  d o w n  

t h e r e ,  w e  w o u l d  h a v e  g o t t e n  t h e m  h a r e  i f  w e  h a d  

b r o u g h t  t h e ®  i n .

T h e  o t h e r  S t a t e s  t e l l  n o ,  H r .  G e n t r y ,  y o u  

a r e  g e t t i n g  i n  t r o u b l e  d o w n  t h e r e  b e c a u s e  y o u  a r e  

o v e r c r o w d i n g ;  w h y  d o n ®  t  y o u  l e a v e  t h e ®  a t  h o m e ?

A n d ,  1  d o n ' t  b e  l i e  v s  i n  t h a t .

Q  T h e  s i t u a t i o n  h a s  b e e n  c l e a r e d  u p ?

A  Y e s ,  a i r .

Q  A y ®  a l l  c h i l d r e n  i s s u e d  a r e g u l a r  b e d  a s

o p p o s e d  t o  a  c o t ,  y o u  k n o w , s o m e t h i n g  l i k e  a n  A r m y  

c o t ?  I s  i t  a  b e d  w i t h  a  b e d  h e a d ?

A  Y e s ;  w ©  a r e  p r e t t y  p r o u d  o f  o u r  b e d s .  W e  h a v e

a  imw  t h a t  I  w o u l d  s a y  a r e  a  l i t t l s  b i t  u n d e r ,  b u t

t h e y  d o n ®  t  l o o k  t o o  b a d .

Q  W h e r e  a r e  t h o s e ?

A  T h e y  a r e  r i g h t u p  t h e r e ;  t h e y  a r e  n o t h i n g  b u t

c o t s ,  b u t  w e  a r e  c o r r e c t i n g  i t .

M R .  B R A D L E Y ;  T h e y  a r e  j u s t  c r a m m e d  t o g e t h e r ,  

a n d  y o u  d o n ' t  h a v e  r o o m  t o  w a l k  b e t w e e n  t h a w ?

A  W e  a r e  r e p l a c i n g  t h e  f u r n i t u r e  a s  f a s t  a s  w e

# W ®  g e t  a  t r e m e n d o u s  n u m b e r  o f  n e w  m a t t r e s s e sc a n



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a n d  p i l l o w s ,  b u t  w e  h a v e  s t r u g g l e d  t h e  l a s t  f o u r  o r  

five yea r s .

I found t h i s  i n s t i t u t e  t w o  h u n d r e d  f i f t y  

thousand d o l l a r s  i n  d e b t ,  a n d  w e  d o n ' t  o w e  a  p e r s o n  a  

dim®  t o d a y ,  a n d  w e  h a v e  i n c r e a s e d  t h e  s a l a r i e s  o f  

teachers, some of t h e m  f o r t y - o n e  p e r c e n t ,  a n d  t h e  

Legislature h a s  b e e n  g o o d  t o  u s ,  a n d  w e  h a v e  b e e n  

fighting as h a r d  a s  w e  c a n  t o  g e t  t h e  t h i n g  b r o u g h t  

u p  to s t a n d a r d .

Q, While you are o n  t h a t  p o i n t ,  t h e  q u e s t i o n  o f  

fire prevention a n d  f i r e  e s c a p e  a n d  f i r e  p r e v e n t i o n

d e v i c e s  - -

A Our fire d e p a r t m e n t  h a s  w o r k e d  w i t h  u s  h e r e  a n d

w e  keep o u r  w h a t  d o  t h e y  c a l l  t h e s e  t h i n g s  - -  

e x t i n g u i s h e r s  —  w e  k e e p  t h e m  l o a d e d  a n d  t r y  t o  t a k e

® w « r y  preventive n e a i u r e  w e  c a n .

q  A r e  a l l  s c h o o l s  e q u a l l y  p r o t e c t e d  i n  t e r r a s  o f

f i r e ?

A 1 don't think a n d  I  w o u l d  b e  a f r a i d  t o  a n s w e r

now which i s  t h e  l e a s t  p r o t e c t e d .

T h e  q u e s t i o n  w a s  a s k e d  m e  t h i s  m o r n i n g  w h y  

w e r e  t h e y  a s s i g n e d  f r o m  w h e r e  t h e y  w e r e  l i v i n g  t o  

a n o t h e r  c a m p u s .



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IP

Q  I n s t e a d  o f  t w o ,  t h e r e  a  i r e  t h r e e ?

A  S h e  s a i d  I  w o u l d  s a y  i f  j. w a s  o n  t h e  s t a n d ,  i f

they were not t h e  l a s t  t h r e e  a p p l i c a n t s ,  t h e y  w o u l d

fee up her®.

Q  T h e  t h r e e  H e g r ©  s t u d e n t s  a t  t h e  H e i e n K e H e r

School?

A Yes.

Q  D o e s  t h a t  - -  d o e s  t h a t  e f f e c t  t h e  3 1  n u m b e r ?

A M © .  T w o  o f  t h o s e  f t e g r o  c h i l d r e n  a r e  f r o m  A l a b a m a ,  

a n d  o n e  f r o m  M i s s i s s i p p i .  T h e y  w e r e  t h e  l a s t  c h r ® « * .

S h ©  s a i d  t h e  s e c o n d  r e a s o n  i s  i t  w o u l d  b e  c o n ­

f u s i n g  - -  w e  a r e  l i m i t e d  t o  t h e  n u m b e r  o f  s u p e r v i s o r ^  

w«  c a n  h a v e  f o r  n i g h t  w o r k ,  a n d  s h e  s a i d  t o  h a v e  t o  

h a v e  a n o t h e r  o n e  e m p l o y e d  t o  b e  u p  h e r e  a n d  l o o k  a f t e r  

o n e  c h i l d ,  t h e y  w o u l d  r u n  o v e r  e a c h  o t h e r  a t  n i g h t .

Q, W h y  c o u l d n *  t  o n ©  o f  t h e  s u p e r v i s o r s  a l r e a d y  

e m p l o y e d  l o o k  a f t e r  t h a t  c h i l d  h e r e ?

A  B e c a u s e  e a c h  s u p e r v i s o r  o v e r  h e r e  h a s  a s  m a n y

a #  t h e y  c a n  t a k e  c a r e  o f ,  a n d  i t  s o  h a p p e n s ,  t o o ,  

t w o  o f  t h e s e  c h i l d r e n  h a v e  t o  h a v e  a l m o s t  i n d i v i d u a l

a t t e n t i o n ; s o  w e  a r e  e m p l o y i n g  a  p e r s o n  o n  a  p a r t -  

t i m e  b a s i s  t o  l o o k  a f t e r  t h i s  o n e  c h i l d  f r o m  B i r ­

m i n g h a m ,  a n d  s h e  c o u l d  n o t  h a v e  l o o k e d  a f t e r  i t  o v e r



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t h e r e ,  b e c a u s e  t h e r e  i s  n o  r o o m  f o r  s u p e r v i s o r  o r  

c h i l d  o v e r  t h e r e ,  

q  l a  t h e  H e  l e a  K e l l e r ?

A  t e e ;  y o u  a r e  a s k i n g  w h y  d i d n ’ 1  t h e  s u p e r v i s o r

q  T h a t ' s  r i g h t ,  b e c a u s e  t h e  3 1  a r e  a c c o m m o d a t e d

d u r i n g  t h e  d a y ,  a n d  a t  n i g h t ,  a f t e r  5  o ' c l o c k ,  i t  

d r o p s  d o w n  t o  2 8  w h e n  t h e s e  t h r e e  l e a v e ?

A  * T h a t ’ s  r i g h t .

Q  T h i s  I s  w h y  I  w a s  c o n c e r n e d ,  i f  t h e y  a r e  a b l e

t o  a c c o n i o d s t e  t h e m  d u r i n g  t h e  d a y ?

A  T h e y  a r e  i n  s c h o o l  d u r i n g  t h e  d a y .

Q  T h e y  n e e d  i n d i v i d u a l  a t t e n t i o n ,  1  s u p p o s e ,  a s

a u c h  a s  t h e y  w o u l d  a f t e r  s c h o o l ?

A  T h e y  h a v e  t ©  c a l l  i n  a  maid d u r i n g  t h e  d a y  

w i t h  t h e s e  s p e c i a l  o n e s  t h a t  a r e  n o t  w h a t  w e  c a l l  

h o u s e  b r o k e .

Q, A r e  t h e s e  t h e  o n l y  c h i l d r e n  i n  t h e  H e l e n  K e l l n

S c h o o l  t h a t  a  *•« n o t  h o u s e  b r o k e n ?

A  Y ® s ,  s i r .

q  A r e  t w o  ot t h e s e  t h r e e  N e g r o  c h i l d r e n  t h e  s a m e

t h a t  w e r e  r e s i d e n t s  l a s t  y e a r ?

A  T h e y  w e r e  f r o m  o u t  o f  S t a t e .  O n e  w a s  f r o m  

H s r t h  C a r o l i n a ,  w e  h a v e  o n e  f r o m  M i s s i s s i p p i  n o w ,



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1 a n d  two fr o ®  A l a b a m a .

2 q  A n d  b o t h  of those are new e n r o l l e e s ?

3 A  Yea.

4 Q  T h i s  is t h e i r  f i r s t  y e a r  at H e l e n  Ke l l e r ?

5 A  T h i s  is the i n f o r m a t i o n  that Mrs. S n e l l  gave

6 m e  a w h i l e  ago.

7 Y o u  m u s t  u n d e r s t a n d  w h e n  I read this t h i n g

8 he r e #  that o r i g i n a l  th i n g  that came f r o m  Court, som« *-

9 b o d y  was s o  m i s i n f o r m e d  th e y  said we h a d  n e v e r  ha d  at

10 N e g r o  c h i l d  i n f o r m e d  in the H e l e n  K e l l e r  S c h o o l ,  an<i

11 the f i r s t  child e n r o l l e d  h e r e  wa s  a N e g r o  child.

12 q  Let me get a little p o i n t e d  on this, since

13 y o u  h a v e  told us w h a t  Mrs. S n e l l  said she w o u l d  tes m

14 t ify to.

15 Y o u  s u g g e s t e d  that the r e a s o n  the N e g r o

16 c h i l d r e n  w e r e n ’t b e i n g  p e r m i t t e d  t o  live in the

17 h o u s e  is b e c a u s e  they w e r e  the last to apply?

18 A  Yes# sir# she told me.

19 Q We could, of c ourse, v e r i f y  that b y  t r y i n g  to

20 o b t a i n  records w h a n  these pe o p l e  a p plied, and w h e n

21 t h e y  w e r e  a d m i t t e d ,  b u t  isn't it likely, o r  is it

22 not true, that they w e r e  a s s i g n e d  to live in the

23 N e g r o  D e a f  Sc h o o l ,  s i m p l y  b e c a u s e  the I n s t i t u t e  has



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followed « p o l i c y  of separating students always in  

t e m s  of l i v i n g  accommoda t i o n s , and i t  was quite  

natural  that the Helen K e l le r  School was going to 

follow  that same p o l i c y ,  so the reason i s  as much 

due to the p o l i c y  as whenever these c h ild r e n  ap­

p l i e d ;  i s n ' t  th a t  r a t io n a l  and reasonable?

A Ho; a l l  1 can answer i s  she said i f  she had

room f o r  them when they a p p lie d ,  she would have taken  

them in  over here,

Q Is n ' t  the cutest ion of who l i v e s  a t  Helen K e l l e r  

going to  be date rained by you?

Wouldn't you have to approve the f a c t  that  

two Megroes would now be permitted t o  l i v e  a t  Helen 

K e l l e r ?  That would have been y m r  d e c is io n ,  would 

i t  not?

A  1 d o n 't  think so.

H R .  NEWTON: You s ta te d  a moment ago that the 

f i r s t  student who ever enrolled in Helen K e l le r  waa

m S @  g r o ?

A Yes.

MR. NEWTON: Did that student s t a y  there?

A Stayed in the school.

MR. NEWTON: Did he l i v e  a t  tha Helen K e l le r

P
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1 School?

2 A That is  a y  information. Mrs. S n e l l  has repeats d

3 that to  oe s e v e r a l  t i n e s .  Dr. John Brown, who is  in

4 Birmingham, 1 have heard him make that statement, the

5 f i r s t  one th a t  enrolled when they decided with the

6 American Foundation of the Blind, was a Negro c h i l d .

7 Q How long ago has that been?

8 A About s ix t e e n  years ago.

9 MS. NEWTON: You d o n 't  know where that student

10 l i v e d  and s le p t?

11 A No.

12 They had an old voodeu b u ild in g  up on the camps.is

13 o n  the White Blind, and I am sure a l l  the ch ild ren

14 stayed t h e r e .

15 A s  a matter of f a c t ,  when I  was in the S ta te

16 Department of Education, I saw them a lt o g e t h e r ;  I

17 don't  think they shipped them out to any other place

18 to  l i v e ; 1 d o n 't  think Mrs. S n e l l  would i f  she didn’ t■

19 h a v e  t o .

20 MR. NEWTON: We are going to read in to  the

21 record the T i t l e  1 funds you have.

22 A 1965-1966, $94,683.00 T i t l e  1; fo r  1966-1967,

23 School Year, $85,785.00; and T i t l e  1 funds f o r  the
-



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1967-1968 School Year f o r  September and Octob e r ,  we 

have received $12,000.00 and have been approved an 

a d d i t i o n a l  $59,000 —  no, a t o t a l  of f i f t y - n i n e .

ME. HEWTQH: A t o t a l  to  be r ece iv ed ,  $59,000 —  

$59,679.00?

A Yes, sir.
M E .  HEWTOH: From the S ta te  vo catio nal  people,  

they j u s t  l i s t e d  the name of two State v o ca tio n a l  

te ach e rs,  and a s a l a r y  to  Mr. Dulton, $5,445.00,  

and 1 guess t h is  is  a Mrs. Scruggs, $6,050.00?

A That i® the only money we get other than our 

^firop ria t  io n .

MR. HBWTOM: You d on't  know how much of that sum 

i s  Federal funds?
A Ho. They a l l o c a t e  that out of the S ta te  Depart

went of Education.'
q To move ©a to the l a s t  th in g,  we were at  one 

time t a l k i n g  about f i r e  prevention d e v ic e s ,  and 1 wan 

asking whether you felt that all of the four campuses 

had sufficient fire protection devices?

A i  don’ t  think so, but 1 would have to d efe r

t e l l i n g  you the ones I think are up to what we think  

they should be, and the ones that are not. We are



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i n s p e c t e d  r e g ularly, a n d  a n  i n s p e c t i o n  report is 

g i v e n  us, a n d  e v e r y  a t t e m p t  p o s s i b l e  is m a d e  f o r  

ins i d e  u p k e e p ,  k e e p i n g  fire e x t i n g u i s h e r s  u p  a n d  su c h  

as that, t a k i n g  care of b u i l d i n g s  o utside, we have  

a m p l e  c i t y  fire d e p a r t m e n t  p r o t e c t i o n  just like we 

h a v e  plugs o n  a lithe c a mpuses.

Q, H a v e  y o u  —  has it -- has an y o n e  e v e r  c o m ­

p l a i n e d ,  o r  h a v e  y o u  e v e r  h e a r d  reports a b o u t  a 

s e r i o u s  fire p r e v e n t i o n  o r  s a f e t y  h a z a r d  in the N e g r o  

D e a f  S c h o o l ?

W o u l d  y o u  s a y  that s c h o o l  is p e r h a p s  w h e r e  it 

is the m o s t  s e r i o u s  p r o b l e m  in this area?

A  No, sir, I w o u l d  ha v e  t o  a g a i n  s a y  some nights

it w o r r i e s  m e  to go to s l e e p  a b o u t  Grace H a l l  out 

h e r e ;  y o u  d o n ' t  know w h a t  that s i t u a t i o n  is u n t i l

y o u  g o  out there.

q  The q u e s t i o n  of fire p r e v e n t i o n a n d  fire safety,

w a s  that t a k e n  u p  o r  d i s c u s s e d  w i t h  the H E W  pe o p l e  

o n  t h e i r  visit?

A  As I recall, we did d i s c u s s  that in g e n e r a l  

a l o n g  w i t h  some ot h e r  things that w e r e  noted. 1 

t o l d  t h e m  1 w a n t e d  them to note e v e r y t h i n g ,  and 1 

t h i n k  t h e y  came in f o r  discussion a t  t h a t  time on



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t h a t  t h i n g .

Q  H o w  d o  t h e  c h i l d r e n  g e t  t o  t o w n  t o  s h o p ,  o r  

r i d e  i n  t o w n ?  A r e  t h e r e  b u s e s  t h a t  c a r r i e d  t h e m  i n ?  

A  H o ,  s i r ,  n o n e  o f  t h e  s c h o o l s  h a v e  b u s e s  t o  

c a r r y  t h e m  t o  t o w n .

Q  D o  t h e  D e a f  k i d s  e v e r  g e t  i n t o  t o w n  t o  s h o p  

a n d  g o  t o  a  m o v i e ,  o r  s o m e t h i n g ?

A  O h ,  y e s ,  v e r y  o f t e n .  T h i s  a f t e r n o o n  a s  1  g o  

a r o u n d ,  I  s e e  s u p e r v i s o r s  f r o m  a l l  t h e  s c h o o l s  w i t h  

t h e  c h i l d r e n .  Y o u  c o u l d  n o t  t u r n  t h i s  m a n y  c h i l d r e n  

l o o s e ,  p a r t i c u l a r l y  t h e  b l i n d ,  a n d  s o m e  o f  t h e  d e a f ,  

w i t h o u t  s o m e  s u p e r v i s o r s  g o i n g  w i t h  t h e m .  

q  Y o u  d o n ' t  t r a n s p o r t  t h e m  a n y w h e r e  o n  a  b u s ?

A  H o t  e x c e p t  w h e r e  t h e  N e g r o  b l i n d  d o n ' t  h a v e  a

s w i m m i n g  p o o l  o r  s o m e t h i n g  l i k e  t h a t ,  w e  t r a n s p o r t  

t h e m  t o  a  p l a c e  w h e r e  t h e y  d o  h a v e  t h e m .

Q  W o u l d  t h e r e  b e  —

A W e  t r a n s p o r t  t h e m  i n  —  w e  h a v e  a  c a r  a s s i g n e d  

t o  e a c h  s c h o o l  e x c e p t  t h i s  o n e  t o  b r i n g  t h e m  i n t o  

t h e  C l i n i c s  a n d  s e e  t h e  d o c t o r .  T h e  d o c t o r  i s  h e r e  

e v e r y  m o r n i n g  a t  7  o ' c l o c k ,  i f  t h e r e  i s  a n y t h i n g  i n  

t h e  w o r l d  t h a t  a  c h i l d  i s  c o m p l a i n i n g  a b o u t .

W e  h a v e  a  n u r s e s  a i d  a t  t h e  s c h o o l  f o r  t h e  b l l



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a n d  s c h o o l  f o r  the deaf, and d o n ' t  h a v e  one f o r  this 

sc h o o l ,  a n d  w i t h  o a r  t rained no r s e  am! two o t h e r  nurse 

a t  the h o s p i t a l ,  t h e y  keep a close w a t c h  on these 

c h i l d  sen.

T h e r e  is a c a r  a s s i g n e d  to e a c h  ca m p u s  e x c e p t  

N e g r o  Bl i n d ,  a m !  t h e y  h a v e  one of these little t r a n s ­

p o r t  w a g o n s ,  a n d  they use that; others use cars to 

b r i n g  c h i l d r e n  b a c k  a n d  fo r t h  to the S p e e c h  and 

H e a r i n g  C e n t e r  a m i  Clinic.

Q  T h e y  g o  b a c k  an d  fo r t h  in these cars?

A  Yes, a n d  w e  try to w o r k  it and get them s e e n  

a f t e r  e a r l y  in the m o r n i n g  b e f o r e  the class period, 

a n d  o u r  d o c t o r ,  o r  d o c t o r  that h a s  b e e n  he r e  f o r  

e i g h t e e n  years —  t h e y  r e c e n t l y  h o n o r e d  h i m  the o t h e r  

night, 1 guess t h e y  h a d  o u t s t a n d i n g  people a l l  o v e r  

the c o u n t r y  h o n o r i n g  h i m  -- h e  has b e e n  e i g h t e e n  

y e a r s  here, a n d  he h a s n ' t  lost a patient. He t hought 

y e s t e r d a y  he  wa s  g o i n g  to lose one. W e  got Mr s .  R i s e r  

to w r i t e  a l e t t e r  today; we ha d  a little girl from 

W a r r i o r ,  A l a b a m a ,  that he s t a y e d  w i t h  five h o u r s  y e s ­

terday; she ha d  f o u r t e e n  s e izures; h e  t h o u g h t  he w a s  

g o i n g  to lose her, but e v e r y  child, in o t h e r  wor d s , 

if t h e y  com® up w i t h  a c o m p l a i n t  in the m o r n i n g ,  those



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c h i l d r e n  ar e  b r o u g h t  t o  the h o s p i t a l  and ar e  c h e c k e d , 

q W h e r e  is the h o s p i t a l ?  la that a h o s p i t a l  in 

T a l l a d e g a ,  o r  on this ca m p u s ?

A  O n  this c ampus; w e  have o u r  o w n  M e d i c a l  Dir e c t s  

a n d  o u r  ow n  C l i n i c ,  a n d  if there is a n y  c h i l d  i n  the 

h o s p i t a l  today, w e  see t h e m  a l l  the w a y  through, 

q  W h i c h  of the sc h o o l s  h a v e  c l i n i c s  w i t h  a 

nurse there a l l  day?

A  N o n e .

q  None e x c e p t  f o r  this p a r t i c u l a r  c enter?

A  W h e r e  c h i l d r e n  -- I w a t c h  the h o s p i t a l  r e p o r t  

e v e r y  m o r n i n g ;  we  w i l l  ha v e  from f o u r  to si x  and t e n  

d u r i n g  the w i n t e r t i m e  w h e n  flu is p r e t t y  p r e v a l e n t , 

w e  h a v e  t w e n t y - f i v e  i n  that h o s p i t a l  at one time. 

q  I s n ' t  there a p a r t t i m e  nu r s e  at the White

B l i n d  Sc h o o l ?

A  No.

Q  New c h i l d r e n  f r o ®  there are t r a n s p o r t e d  hare

too?

A  E x c e p t  y o u  h a v e  got t o  u n d e r s t a n d ,  this is 

b e i n g  don® la B i r m i n g h a m ,  e s p e c i a l l y ,  T u s c a l o o s a ,  

C i t y  S c h o o l s ,  a n d  M o b i l e  C i t y  S c h o o l s ,  we have a 

t r a i n e d  p e r s o n  here that has ha d  p r a c t i c a l  nurse



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P
t r a i n i n g  p r o g r a m  a t  one of o u r  trade sch o o l s .  She

goes i n t o  —  we  c o u l d n ' t  a s s i g n  h e r  but to t w o  

s c h o o l s .  She goes in t o  the White Blind and N e g r o  

D e a f  S c h o o l  e v e r y  m o r n i n g  a n d  w o r k s  w i t h  the 

p r i n c i p a l ,  pe o p l e  a n d  stpervisora, the h o u s e  parents, 

a n d  t h e y  h a v e  a c o m p l e t e  first aid d e p a r t m e n t ;  and 

if t h e y  t h i n k  it ou g h t  t o  come up, an d  at te n  o ' d o c k  

w h e n  she gets t h r o u g h  w i t h  the schools, a n d  t h e y  

d e t e r m i n e  the ones that c o m e  t o  the h o s p i t a l ,  Mr s .

La fore, o u r  r e g i s t e r e d  nurse, and the o t h e r  two 

nu r s e s  fr o m  the h o s p i t a l ,  these c h i l d r e n  ar e  a d ­

m i t t e d .  A n d  I ha t e  t o  tell you now that long b e f o r e  

this law r e q u i r e d  o t h e r  h o s p i t a l s  to d o  it, e a c h  

c h i l d  h e r e  of the same age group, s a y  y o u  ha d  t h r e e , 

two N e g r o  an d  one wh i t e ,  t h e y  go in the same w a r d  

a n d  the d o c t o r  sees them in w h i c h e v e r  o r d e r  they 

c o m e  in; the same t h i n g  is true w i t h  the cli n i c . 

T h e r e  is n o  s e p a r a t i o n  w h a t e v e r .  

q  In the h o s p i t a l ?

A  l a  the h o s p i t a l  o r  clinic. T h e r e  is n o  s e ­

p a r a t i o n  w i t h  the a u d i o l o g i s t .  C h i l d r e n  are s c h e d u H  

a l l  d u r i n g  the d a y  fo r  the a u d i o l o g i s t .  1 c a n  w a l k  

d o w n  there a n y  time a n d  y o u  w i l l  find t h e m  s i t t i n g

.ed



S I

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134

1 alongside each other.

2 qi Let me go back for a minute to the buses. What

3 kind of cars are these? They are not buses, you

4 said they were cars. Are they like airport limou-

5 sines or other cars?

6 A Well, we have these l i t t l e  carry a l l s .  You

7 see, we have these like you see running around Bir-

8 mingham, where they s h i f t  people from one area

9 to another. They hold about e ig h t,  not a sta tion

10 wagon, but like a d elivery,  except they have seats.

11 Q A l i t t l e  va*n?

12 A A l i t t l e  van.

13 Q Is each school assigned a driver?

14 A That*s r igh t,  one of the house parents.

15 q One of the house parents is the driver?

16 A Yes, they have got to be q u a lif ie d .

17 Q Would you say that each of these at  the

18 schools are r e l a t i v e l y  the same age, Negro Schools,

19 do they have older vans than the white schools?

20
A I t  so happens at this particu lar  time, i t

21
could b® reversed, the two Negro Schools are the

22
new ones; the other is about worn out, the white

23
blind. We have to look into i t ;  i t  has gone about



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as fa r  as i t  can. When i t  is replaced, the others 

w i l l  say we have the old one.

Q Who has the new ones now?

A The two Negro schools.

Q When were they acquired?

A One l a s t  year and one about a year and aha If

ago; they are a l l  kept in good shape. We check 

them doubly carefu l.  We have buses that take our 

basketball  and fo o tb a ll  teams and students on tours.  

They are scheduled equally between the schools. We 

have two buses that belong to the I n s t i t u t e .

There again, Hr. Patton, with the principal - - 

Q, Where are the buses kept?

A On this campus here; they are kept at  our

automobile shop. When they make a tr ip ,  they are 

checked in and checked out, and they see i f  the 

truck and service is right,  ju st  like you would a 

school bus, because we are transporting boys to 

basketball  games; we are transporting students out 

on a f i e l d  t r ip .

This afternoon there w i l l  be some intermediate 

children have a cook-out from this campus. Maybe 

next week Mr. Strong w i l l  have something he wants



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the bus to go on a tr ip  for.

Q Who drives those buses?

A A q u a lif ie d  driver.

Q Is that his job only, to drive buses?

A Not n ecessarily ,  because we have one man

that works out of the grounds crew who is  an e x c e lle  

d river,  and we have John Hambry, our shop instructor  

in the school for the deaf, he is an e x c e lle n t  drive  

Q, The Negro School for  the deaf?

A That*8 right.  He is an e x c e lle n t  driver,  but

again, we have to watch that very c a r e f u l ly ,  because 

we can* t subject any of our children to anything ex­

cept the very best in the buses in the very best sha 

possible.

q Before I go into the la st  thing, there is

another question about the supplies.

Have you in your years here ever learned of a 

situ ation  in which books or other personal items such 

as linens or bedsheets or whatever that were used 

formerly at  a white school, were then sent to the 

Negro school to be used?

A No, s i r ;  I have no record of that ever being

nt

r.

pe

23 here.



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q Ha s  a n y o n e  e v e r  c o m p l a i n e d  to you a b o u t  s e n d i n g

b o o k s  f r o m  w h i t e  sc h o o l s  to the N e g r o  s chools?

A  No, I ha d  a c o m p l a i n t  that we  w e r e  sh o r t  of 

linens and had to c h e c k  on that; that was c o r r e c t e d  as 

s o o n  as p o s sible,

q  The s h o r t a g e  of linens p r oblem?

A  Yes, we issue, we  m e t  w i t h  al l  the h o u s e  parents

a n d  p r i n c i p a l s  s o metime —  the S a t u r d a y  before s c h o o l  

ope n e d ,  and t h e y  ha d  r e quested ho w  m a n y  sheets they 

n eeded, an d  ho w  m a n y  p i l l o w  cases, h o w  m a n y  towels, a n  

h o w  m a n y  w a s h  clo t h e s ,  and e v e r y t h i n g  they needed, and 

w h e n  t h e y  w e r e  issued, w h e n  t h e y  w e r e  b ought, we 

b o u g h t  f o r t y - n i n e  h u n d r e d  and some odd d o l l a r s  w o r t h  

of new m a t e r i a l  this y e a r  to start school. I n  o u r  

l a u n d r y  w e  have a st a m p  put o n  those, w h o  they b e l o n g  t 

an d  t h e y  are n e v e r  m i x e d  w i t h  an y  o t h e r  school; so 

th e y  get back, a n d  they are s u p p o s e d  to turn in, if 

t h e y  a s k  for twelve m o r e  sheets, th e y  ha v e  to t u r n  in 

the twe l v e  old ones to get a replacement,  

q  We w i l l  pass o n  from that.

T h e  last t h i n g  I w a n t  to then find out ab o u t  

is the r e l a t i o n s h i p  of the adailt d e p a r t m e n t  to the

i n s t i t u t e .



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138

1 Is the A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t  just like a s c h o o l  in
2 the same w a y  Mr .  S t r o n g  w o u l d  r e p o r t  to you, Mr.
3 M c F a d d e n  w o u l d  re p o r t  to you?

4 A  Not d i r e c t l y ,  no, sir; there is a little di f -

5 f e r e n c e  there; there is a fine po i n t  in w h i c h  y o u  h a \e

6 to read o u r  M i n u t e s  to get that c l a r i f i e d .

7 Mr. M c F a d d e n  c a n  report, as he d i d  last week,

8 he a s k e d  the E x e c u t i v e  C o m m i t t e e ,  w h i c h  is a Committe e

9 of three, w h i c h  h a n d l e s  things d u r i n g  the year in

10 b e t w e e n  m e e t i n g s  of the Bo a r d  of T r u s t e e s ,  he present ed

11 his b u d g e t  to t h e m  d i r e c t l y ,  but he did not p r e s e n t

12 it u n t i l  h e  and I ha d  gone o v e r  it, but that wa s  his

13 d i r e c t  r e s p o n s i b i l i t y  to the Board.

14 Q  Has a n y t h i n g  h a p p e n e d  in the last y e a r  or two

15 r e g a r d i n g  the r e l a t i o n s h i p  of the A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t  tc

16 the I n s t i t u t e  in terms of, again, a d m i n i s t r a t i v e  set-

17 up and a u t h o r i t y ?

18 A Yes.

19 Q, Ha s  s o m e t h i n g  h a p p e n e d ?

20 A  T h a t ' s  right.

21 Q Wh a t  w a s  that?

22 A  Th e r e  was a q u e s t i o n  raised b y  H E W  on d o w n

23 t h r o u g h  the E e h a b i l i t a t i o n  A d m i n i s t r a t i o n , that althc ugh

J



w e  r e c o g n i z e  that y o u r  A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t  is I n c o m p l e t e  

c o m p l i a n c e ,  it is as now just a n o t h e r  school; that 

w a s  a b o u t  the m e a n i n g  of it. It w a s  w o r d e d  b e t t e r  

than I c o u l d  w o r d  it, so at the a n n u a l  m e e t i n g  of o u r  

B o a r d  of T r u s t e e s  a year a g o  from this past Ma y ,  in 

M a y ,  1966, they p a s s e d  a r e s o l u t i o n  p r o v i d i n g  f o r  the 

A d m i n i s t r a t i o n  of the A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t  since p r a c t i ­

c a l l y  a l l  of the o p e r a t i o n  was j o i n t l y  w i t h  r e h a b i l i ­

tation, that the D i r e c t o r  of the A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t  and 

S t a t e  D i r e c t o r  of V o c a t i o n a l  R e h a b i l i t a t i o n  w o u l d  have 

a u t h o r i t y  to r e c o m m e n d  to the Bo a r d  d i r e c t l y  things 

that b o t h  a g e n c i e s  a g r e e d  u p o n  fo r  t h e i r  action.

Q  D i d  that ha v e  the e f f e c t  -- is that a l l  that 

h a p p e n e d ,  or  was that t h e i r  c r e a t i o n  of s o m e t h i n g ?

Was there a n  act b y  the L e g i s l a t u r e  at a l l  s e p a r a t i n g  

o u t  the A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t  f r o m  the I n s t i t u t e ?

A  No, sir.

Q  It is pa r t  of the I n s t i t u t e ?

A  It is s t i l l  a p a r t  of the Ins t i t u t e ,  and as f a r

as I a m  c o n c e r n e d ,  I am just as c o n c e r n e d ,  e v e n  t h o u g h  

it is not —  e v e n  th o u g h  I d o n ' t  get d o w n  in the o p e r a ­

t i o n  of things that i n v o l v e d  Mr. M c F a d d e n ' s  r e l a t i o n s h ; .  

an d  R e h a b i l i t a t i o n  like 1 did w h e n  I was D i r e c t o r ,  and



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n e i t h e r  d i d  the m e n  w h o  w a s  i n  m y  p o s i t i o n  d o  it, 

h u t  in o r d e r  to qualify 

Q This is w h a t  I d o n ’t u n d e r s t a n d .

W h a t  is the r e l a t i o n s h i p o f  the a c t i o n  of the 

B o a r d  to H E W ' s  o b s e r v a t i o n  that the A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t ,  

b u t  not the rest of the i n s t i t u t e ,  w a s  in c o m p l i a n c e V  

A  W e l l ,  t h e y  sa i d  i n  o r d e r  fo r  us —  in eff e c t ,  

it s e e m e d  to me, as I r e c a l l  it, it said i n  e f f e c t  

w e  c a n  look it up in the M i n u t e s ,  you c a n  read it,

b e c a u s e  t h e y  a r e  a v a i l a b l e  to y o u  -- it said in e f f e o
\

s i n c e  there has b e e n  no q u e s t i o n  r a i s e d  ab o u t  c o m ­

p l i a n c e  in the a d u l t  d e p a r t m e n t ,  but there has b e a n  

a q u e s t i o n  raised a b o u t  c o m p l i a n c e  on  the sch o o l s  

and in o r d e r  to c l a r i f y  it, we a s k e d  y o u r  Board of 

T r u s t e e s  to  get t w o  r e s o l u t i o n s  in there that R e h a b i ­

l i t a t i o n  in A l a b a m a  and the R e g i o n a l  Office, c o u l d  

d e a l  d i r e c t l y  w i t h  the D i r e c t o r ,  s o  that there w o u l d  

be no q u e s t i o n  in a n y b o d y ' s  mind.

Q  T h a t  r e h a b i l i t a t i o n  and M c F a d d a n  c o u l d  d e a l

w i t h  w h a t  board?

A  W i t h  o u r  Board.

q  W i t h  regard to i n t e g r a t i o n ?

A W i t h  regard to a n y t h i n g  that ne e d e d  to come



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P

up with the Adult Department.

q Did the e f f e c t  of sep aratin g i t  out,  the adialt 

department from the i n s t i t u t e ,  was that in any way 

r e f l e c t i n g  a determination by the Board to comply 

with anything HEW wanted t o  do with respect to  the 

Adult Department?

A Yes.

D Did th at  a l s o  in d ica te  some s o r t  of r e f u s a l

to have the i n s t i t u t e  comply?

A Mo, s i r ;  we have tr ie d  d e s p r a te ly  e v e r  since

year one t© get  them to t e l l  us.

q X am t r y i n g  to e s t a b l i s h  whether the s p e c i a l ,

treatment of the Adult Department was somehow a device  

to  keep the Adult Department in compliance, but not 

be concerned about the compliance sta tu s  of the 

I n s t i t u t e ,  and forego Federal money, i f  necessary?

A Your conclusion would be erroneous. May I say

with a l l  kindness, your conclusion would be erroneous 

on th a t  one p a r t .

Let me say,  without being c r i t i c a l  of anyone,  

HEW, y<n the O ff ic e  of R e h a b il i ta t i o n ,  or you, the 

Regional O ff ic e  in A t la n t a ,  and our S ta te  O ff ic e  

in Montgomery, that they told us in no uncertain



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terms w h a t  w o u l d  be n e e d e d  to be i n  c o m p l i a n c e  there 

a n d  w e  m e t  it.

Q  I n  the A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t ?

A  Yes.

A n d  a l l  of this we a r e  t a l k i n g  a b o u t  is a p a r t y  

to m e e t i n g  that, a n d  w h y  co u l d  not t h e y  tell us w h e n  

w e  s u b m i t t e d  a p l a n  w h y  w e  w e r e  s h o r t  on the schools.

T h e y  di d  not h e s i t a t e  on the A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t ,  

b e c a u s e  t h e y  h a d  peo p l e  f o l l o w i n g  that through.

I a m  not b e i n g  c r i t i c a l ,  b u t  yo u  look at y o u r  

f o l d e r  of c o r r e s p o n d e n c e ,  the letter, the l e t t e r  last 

m o n t h  w a s  in so and so's hand, we ha v e  turned y o u r  

f o l d e r  o v e r  to s o  an d  so, y o u  w i l l  h e a r  from them in 

two o r  three m o n t h s ;  that has b e e n  g o i n g  on. T h e r e  ha 

b e e n  no l a g g i n g  on o u r  p a r t  that we  h a v e n ' t  tried to 

find out w h a t  we have failed t o  d o  to m e e t  compliance!. 

We  h a v e n ’ t tried to d u c k  or  do d g e  anybody. 

q  O n  the o t h e r  hand, has the bo a r d  -- did y o u  o r

the b o a r d  i n s t i t u t e  f o r  the fa l l  te r m  of 1967, w i t h  

respect to the i n s t i t u t e  and f o u r  s chools and H e l e n  

Ke l l e r ,  a n y  p o l i c y  -- a n y  new p o l i c y  o r  po l i c i e s ,  o r  

c h a n g e  a n y  p o l i c y  to come in t o  c o m p l i a n c e  w i t h  Title 

6 of the C i v i l  E i g h t s  Act?



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uvt rfirVff%rja7n, maOdUlu

9
1 4 3

A  Y e s .  1  s a i d  a  f e w  t h i n g s  h a v e  b e e n  d o n e  t h a t

w e  h a v e  c o v e r e d  t o d a y ,  v o c a t i o n a l  a n d  s p e e c h  a n d  

h e a r i n g  c e n t e r ,  a n d  w e  h a v e  h a d  a  b u i l d i n g  p r o g r a m  

g o i n g ,  a n d  w e  h a v e  s e p a r a t e d  t h e s e  o t h e r s  s o  w e  c o u l d  

g e t  o u r  s t u d e n t s  w h e r e  w e  c o u l d  g e t  a  s e p a r a t e  f a c i l i t y  

w h e r e  w e  c o u l d  t a k e  s t u d e n t s  f r o m  a l l  f o u r  s c h o o l s  

i n t o  t h a t  f a c i l i t y ;  w e  h a v e  d o n e  a  f e w  t h i n g s ,  

y e s ,  s i r ,

Q  B u t  i n  p o i n t  o f  f a c t ,  j u s t  t o  r e i t e r a t e ,  i t  h a s

n o t  r e s u l t e d  i n  a n y  N e g r o  c h i l d r e n  e i t h e r  l i v i n g  a t  

o r  a t t e n d i n g  c l a s s e s

A  T h a t ’ s  r i g h t ,  e x c e p t  i n  t h e  v o c a t i o n a l  a r e a .

Q  I  t h o u g h t  y o u  s a i d  t h e r e  a r e  n o n e  a t t e n d i n g

v o c a t i o n a l  c o u r s e s  a t  t h e  w h i t e  s c h o o l ,  a n d  n o  w h i t e  

s t u d e n t s  a t t e n d i n g  v o c a t i o n a l  c o u r s e s  a t  t h e  N e g r o  

s c h o o l ?

A  B u t  I  d i d n ' t  s a y  t h e y  d i d  n o t  l a s t  y e a r .

Q  T h a t ' s  r i g h t ;  w e  a r e  g o i n g  t o  o b t a i n  a  l i s t  o f

s t u d e n t s  w h o  d i d  l a s t  y e a r ,  b u t  t h e r e  a r e  n o n e  n o w  

i n  O c t o b e r ,  1 9 6 7 ?

A  N o ,  s i r .

Q  D i d  w e  o b t a i n  f r o m  a n y b o d y ,  w e  h a v e  b e e n  g e t t i n g

s o  m u c h  s t u f f ,  t h e  l i s t  o f  g r a d u a t e s ?



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A  Y e s ,  y o u  h a v e  g o t  t h a t .

M R .  W H I T E :  T h a t  i s  a l l .

M R .  B R A D L E Y :  A l l  r i g h t ,  s i r .

E X A M I N A T I O N  B Y  M R .  B R A D L E Y :

Q, M r .  G e n t r y ,  l e t ’ s  g o  d o w n  t o  t h e  H e l e n  K e l l e r  

S c h o o l .

W e  h a v e  h a d  a  l o t  o f  t a l k  a b o u t  t h a t ,  a n d  I  w o u l i  

l i k e  t o  a s k  y o u  s o m e  q u e s t i o n s  a b o u t  i t .

I  b e l i e v e  w e  h a v e  e s t a b l i s h e d  w e  h a v e  3 1  

s t u d e n t s  a t  t h e  H e l e n  K e l l e r  S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  1 9 6 7 - 1 9 6 8  

s c h o o l  y e a r ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r .

Q  H o w  m a n y  t e a c h e r s  d o  y o u  h a v e  d o w n  t h e r e  a t  t h e

p r e s e n t  t i m e ?

A  M r .  B r a d l e y ,  i t  i s  o n  t h e r e .

Q  C a n  y o u  g i v e  m e  a n  a p p r o x i m a t i o n ?

A  A r o u n d  t w e l v e .

q  T e a c h e r s  s t a y  d o w n  t h e r e  d u r i n g  t h e  d a y t i m e

o n l y ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r .

q  D o  y o u  h a v e  s o m e o n e  w h o  s t a y s  w i t h  t h e  c h i l d r e n

a t  n i g h t ?

A Y e s  .



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Q  W h a t  a r e  t h e y  c a l l e d ?

A  T h e y  a r e  c a l l e d  h o u s e  p a r e n t s ,  s u p e r v i s o r s  t h e y

c a l l  t h e t a .

Q  H o w  m a n y ,  i f  y o u  h a v e  m o r e  t h a n  o n e ?

A  H r .  a n d  M r s .  F r e e d m a n ,  a n d  M r s . W h i t e  a r e  j u s t

t h e  t h r e e  r e g u l a r ,

Q  Three r e g u l a r ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r ,  o f  c o u r s e  w e  h a v e  r e l i e f  s u p e r v i s o r s ,

q  I  b e l i e v e  t h e  t e s t i m o n y  h a s  b e e n  w i t h  t h e  3 1

t h e r e  a r e  t h r e e  w h o  s p e n d  t h e  n i g h t  o v e r  a t  t h e  N e g r o

D e a f  S c h o o l ?

A  Y e s .

q  S o  t h a t  l e a v e s  2 8  t o  b e  c a r e d  f o r  a t  t h e  Helen

K e l l e r  S c h o o l  b y  t h r e e  p e r s o n s ?

A  R i g h t .

Q, I s  t h a t  r i g h t ?

A Yes.

Q  H o w , I  b e l i e v e  y o u  a l s o  t e s t i f i e d  y o u  h a d  e m ­

p l o y e d  s o m e  p e o p l e  t o  t a k e  c a r e  o f  t w o  o f  t h e s e  t h r e e  

t h a t  w e r e  n o t  l i v i n g  i n  t h e  H e l e n  K e l l e r  S c h o o l  b e c a u s e  

o f  p e r s o n a l  p r o b l e m s  t h e y  h a v e ;  i s  t h a t  t r u e ?

A  P a r t l y ,  a n d  b e c a u s e  o f  o u r  s u p e r v i s o r s  o f  t h a t

s c h o o l  a r e  l o a d e d  j u s t  l i k e  t h e  o n e s  o v e r  h e r e  w e r e



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loaded.

Q Do you know the names of those people that were 

hired?

A No, 1 would have to get those from Mr. Strong.

q We w i l l  furnish those.

I b elieve you a lso  t e s t i f i e d  that i t  is your 

information that these three students that are

stayin g over at the Negro Deaf School who are Negroes 

two from Alabama and one from M is s is s ip p i,  were the

l a s t  ones enrolled in the Helen K eller  School?

A That is what Mrs. S n e ll  told me over the phone

q Had they not been the la s t  ones, they would be

housed over at  the Helen K eller School?

A Let me interpret that.

I f  next year four drop out and we have room fo  

four new students, these would be given p r io r it y  

before we got the other four.

q They would be housed and fed at the Helen

K eller  School where the 28 are housed and fed now?

e

A Yes.

Q Now, I believe you stated i t  was also  your in

formation that the f i r s t  student enrolled a t  the 

f i r s t  term - -  f i r s t  student enrolled at the Helen



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K e lle r  School was a Negro?

A That's  r ig h t,  as far  as I know, staying in the

wooden frame building.

Q In the frame building that was the Helen K eller

School?

A Yes.

q I believe your testimony has been that only

Negro children are assigned to the Alabama State  

School for  the Deaf, that is the Negro deaf?

A Yes.

q X believe you s ta te d  only white children are

assigned to  the Alabama School for Deaf on the main 

c atnpus.

A Right.

Q I b e l i e v e  you stated only Negro children are

assigned to the Negro School for the Blind?

A Yes.

q Also you have t e s t i f i e d  that only white childrej;

white blind children, are assigned to the White Blind

School?

A Yes.

Q And there is  no transferring back and forth for

Instruction in the academic courses?



1 A N o t  f o r  a c a d e m i c  i n s t r u c t i o n ,  b u t  f o r  m a n y  o t h e c

P
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s e r v i c e s ,  t h e r e  a r e  t r a n s f e r s .

q  T h e r e  i s  o n l y  o n e  s c h o o l  u n d e r  t h e  s u p e r v i s i o n t

t h e  A l a b a m a  I n s t i t u t e  f o r  D e a f  a n d  B l i n d ,  f o r  t h e  

i n s t r u c t i o n  o f  t h e  d e a f  a n d  b l i n d ;  i s  t h a t  c o r r e c t ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r .

Q  A n d  a l l  r a c e s  a r e  t a u g h t  i n  t h a t  s c h o o l ?

A  T h a t  i s  c o r r e c t .

q  N o w ,  I  b e l i e v e  t h a t  y o u r  t e s t i m o n y  h a s  b e e n  t h a j t

t h e  A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t  i s  u n d e r  t h e  s u p e r v i s i o n  a n d  

c o n t r o l  o f  t h e  B o a r d  o f  T r u s t e e s  f o r  t h e  A l a b a m a  D e a f  

a n d  B l i n d  I n s t i t u t e ?

A  Y e ® .

q  B u t  t h a t  t h e  f u n d s  c o m e  f r o m  - -  .

A  A  d i f f e r e n t  a p p r o p r i a t i o n .

q  Y o u  h a v e  a  s e p a r a t e  a p p r o p r i a t i o n  f o r  t h e  A d u l t

D e p a r t m e n t  t h a n  y o u  d o  f o r  t h e  D e a f  a n d  B l i n d  I n s t i t u t e ?  

A  A n d  a  separate b u d g e t  w h i c h  i n v o l v e s  r e h a b i l i t a ­

t i o n  f u n d s  a n d  A d u l t  b l i n d  f u n d s .

Q  D o  y o u  h a v e  s u p e r v i s i o n  a n d  c o n t r o l  o v e r  t h e

A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t  a s  P r e s i d e n t  o f  t h e  I n s t i t u t e ?

A  E x c e p t  i n  t h e  a r e a s  s e t  f o r t h  i n  t h e  M i n u t e s

t h a t  w e  g a v e  t o  t h e  D i r e c t o r  a n d  t h e  D i r e c t o r  o f  < e h a b i -



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l i t a t i o n  c e r t a i n  r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s  d i r e c t l y  f o r  t h e  

B o a r d ,  o t h e r w i s e  I  a c c o u n t  t o  t h e  B o a r d  f o r  t h a t  t h e  

s a m e  a s  a n y  o t h e r  s c h o o l .  T h e r e  i s  s o m e  s e p a r a t i o n  

t h e  r e .

Q  B u t  t h e  A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t  d o e s  h a v e  a  s e p a r a t e

d i r e c t o r ?

A  T h a t  i s  t r u e .

Q  t o ,  w o u l d  y o u  t e l l  m e ,  p l e a s e ,  w h a t  a g e  g r o u p ,

i f  t h e r e  i s  a n  a g e  g r o u p ,  t h a t  g o  t o  t h e  A d u l t  D e p a r t ­

m e n t ?

A  T h e y  d o n *  t  t a k e  a n y o n e  u n d e r  s i x t e e n  y e a r s  o f

a g e .

Q. N o  o n ©  u n d e r  s i x t e e n  y e a r s  o f  a g e .

N o w ,  d o  y o u  h a v e  a n y o n e  a t t e n d i n g  t h e  A d u l t  

D e p a r t m e n t  t h a t  w o u l d  a l s o  b e  a t t e n d i n g  a n y  s c h o o l  a t  

t h e  I n s t i t u t e ?

A  N o t  a f t e r  O c t o b e r  1 s t  o f  t h i s  y e a r .  W e  m a d e  a

c o m p l e t e  b r e a k  i n  s e p a r a t i o n .  U p  u n t i l  t h i s  y e a r  w e  

h a v e  h a d  s t u d e n t s  f r o m  a l l  o u r  s c h o o l s  a t t e n d i n g  p a r t - '  

t i m e  t h e  A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t ,  b u t  w e  r e c o g n i z e  t h a t  w e  h a d  

t o ,  s o m e w h e r e  a l o n g  t h e  w a y ,  a n d  t h i s  n e w  s c h o o l  y o u  

s e e  h e r e  w o u l d  b ®  i n  o p e r a t i o n ,  w e  t h o u g h t  i n  N o v e m b e r ,

W e  k n e w  w e  h a d  t o  m a k e  a  b r e a k ,23 b u t  i t  w i l l  b e  J a n u a r y .



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so, to be s p e c i f i c ,  in the case of laundry and dry 

cleaning, none of Hr. Strong's students go out there 

now for vocational work like they did l a s t  year.

Q You are ta lk in g  about going out to the Adult  

Department for  vocational training?

A That's r igh t.

Q Now, do you have whites and Negroes going to

the Adult Department?

A Completely integrated, and has met a l l  require­

ments of the HEW so fa r  as r e h a b ilita tio n  knows, be­

cause they could not spend any money here i f  i t  was 

not meeting the requirements, and as far  as I know, wji 

have met every requirement there.

q Do a l l  of the students in the Adult Department

l iv e  in dormitories on the campus?

A They did u n t i l  we had to move the center in a

temporary b a sis,  and had to abandone the dormitories 

there and they have found boarding f a c i l i t i e s  in town 

for  a l l  the trainees.

Q None l iv in g  on campus now?

A None l iv in g  on campus now; i t  is a temporary

thing, because they had to convert the dormitory into

new o f f i c e s .



y
1 5 1

1 I  d i d n ’ t  g e t  t o  s h o w  y o u  t h a t ,  a n d  t h e s e  g e n t l e -

2 m a n  w i l l  b e  I n t e r e s t e d  t o  k n o w ,  w e  c a l l  t h a t  I n d u s -

3 t r i e s  f o r  t h e  d e a f  a n d  b l i n d ,  t h e  c o n t r a c t  o n  t h a t

4 b u i l d i n g  w a s  a  l i t t l e  b e t t e r  t h a n  $ 7 0 0 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 ,  i t

5 c o v e r s  o v e r  7 0 , 0 0 0  s q u a r e  f e e t  o f  f l o o r  s p a c e ,  a n d  t h a t

6 i s  t h e  l a s t  p l a c e  t h e y  l a n d  b e f o r e  t h e y  g o  o u t  i n  i n -

7 d  u s  t r y .  I f  t h e y  f i n i s h  o n e  o f  t h e  t r a d e  s c h o o l s  o r

8 o n e  o f  t i e  s c h o o l s  o v e r  h e r e ,  t h e y  m o v e  t h r o u g h  t h e  i n -

9 d u s t r i e s  f o r  t h e  d e a f  a n d  b l i n d ;  t h e r e  i s n ’ t  a n y t h i n g

10 c o m p a r a b l e  t o  t h a t  i n  t h e  U n i t e d  S t a t e s .

11 Q  W e  a  r e  t a l k i n g  a b o u t  t h e  A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t ?

12 A  W e  a r e  t a l k i n g  a b o u t  t h e  A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t ;  t h a t * s

13 r i g h t .  I t  t i e s  i n  w i t h  y o u r  t r a d e  s c h o o l .

14 Q  T h e  t r a d e  s c h o o l ,  i s  t h a t  o p e r a t e d  b y  t h e  B o a r d

15 o f  T r u s t e e s ,  o r  o p e r a t e d  b y  V o c a t i o n a l  R e h a b i l i t a t i o n ?

16 A  N o ,  t h e  B o a r d  o f  T r u s t e e s .  T h e  v o c a t i o n a l  r e h a b i l i -

17 t a t i o n  a p p r o v e s  s t u d e n t s  w h o  g o  t h e r e ;  w e  c o u l d  n o t

18 o p e r a t e  o n  t h e  f u n d s  t h e  L e g i s l a t u r e  g i v e s  u s ,  b u t

19 t h e y  p a y  a  t u i t i o n  a n d  t h e r e b y  t h e y  w a n t  t o  h a v e  a  h a t d

20 i n  p o l i c y  m a k i n g .

21 Q  D o  t h e y  s e l e c t  s t u d e n t s  t h a t  g o  t o  t h e  t r a d e

22 s c h o o l ?

23 A  T h e y  a r e  a l l  r e f e r r e d  b y  t h e  T r a d e  S c h o o l ,  a n d



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we have a committee, l ike Mr. Ralph Bishop and Mr.

John Parsons from the Rehabilitation O ffic e ,  who is 

State Supervisor for the Deaf and Blind, and he works 

a l l  the R ehabilitation Offices over Alabama, and they 

s e e  students they want to have accepted. T h e  f i r s t  

step is evaluation. They take students from our 

schools and send them as they do from out in the 

S t a t e .

q Now, le t  me get this s tr a ig h t.  Will you have any

say so about the students that are going to the 

Trad® School as President of the I n s t i t u t e ,  students  

from the I n s t i tu te  or is  that decision l e f t  s o le l y  

up to vocational?

A No, s i r .

q You work with them, do you?

A Yes, s i r .

q I t  w i l l  be a Joint decision about the students

that attend the Trade School?

A Yes.

Q But the money for the operation of i t  w i l l

come through vocational rehabilitation?

A And appropriations of the Legislature to the

trade school.



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Q D i r e c t l y  to the trade school?

A Yes.

Q And not through your in s t itu te ?

A No. Our funds are not co-xningled at a l l ,  and

that is  the proper word they told us to use. A l l  the 

bookkeeping, a l l  the accounting, we have the examiner 

of accounts, he is examining the accounts on everythin  

that comes to the i n s t i t u t e ;  he w i l l  go out and 

examine the books of account of the Adult Department. 

q Who w i l l  s e le c t  the instructors?

A Mr. McFadden se le c ts  the instructors and re­

commends them to the Board, so there again, this is  

novel, but Mr. McFadden w i l l  not make any recommenda­

tion that he does not say to the Board Mr. Gentry and 

I have j o i n t l y  approved th is .  

q He is head of the Adult Department?

A  Yes.

Tech n ically ,  he would have the right to do that 

but we ju s t  don't do business that way. 

q This technical school is not in operation at

the moment, is  it?

A I t  is in temporary quarters waiting for the

building to be completed.



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Q  W h e n  d o  y o u  a n t i c i p a t e  t h e  b u i l d i n g  t o  b e  c o m

p i e  t e d  a n d  r e a d y  f o r  u s e ?

A  B y  t h e  1 5 t h  o f  J a n u a r y .

Q  1 9 6 8 ?

A  I t  w a s  s u p p o s e d  t o  b e  t h e  f i r s t  o f  D e c e m b e r ,  b p t

w e  w e r e  g r a n t e d  a n  e x t e n s i o n .  T h e  I n d u s t r y  f o r  t h e  

D e a f  a n d  B l i n d  w i l l  b e  i n  o p e r a t i o n  b e f o r e  C h r i s t m a s .  

q , D o  y o u  h a v e  a n y  p l a n  f o r  s e n d i n g  s t u d e n t s  o v e r  

t o  t h e  S t a t e  T r a d e  S c h o o l  f r o m  t h e  I n s t i t u t e ?

A  Y e s .

Q, H o w  w i l l  y o u  d o  t h a t ?

A  P a r t i a l l y  w e  h a v e  a  p l a n .  W e  h a v e  s e n t  i n  o u r

p l a n  t o  H E W ,  w e  h a v e  s e n t  i n  a l l  f o u r  s c h o o l s  o f  t h e  

i n s t i t u t e  w h e n  s t u d e n t s ,  i n  t h e  o p i n i o n ,  o p i n i o n  o f  

t h e  s t a f f ,  e v e r y o n e  c o n c e r n e d ,  t h a t  t h i s  s t u d e n t  

h a s  a t t a i n e d  t h e  m a x i m u m  p o s s i b l e  i n  t h e  s c h o o l s ,  

g o n e  a s f a r  a s  t h e y  c a n .  H o w ,  w e  w i l l  c a l l  i n  H r .  

M c F a d d e n  a n d  w e  w i l l  d o  w h a t  w a  c a l l  s t a f f i n g  t h a t  

i n d i v i d u a l ,  a n d  m a k e  a  d e c i s i o n  a b o u t  t r a n s f e r r i n g  

h i m  a n d  t h e n  w e  n o t i f y  t h e  p a r e n t s  w e  h a v e  g o n e  a s  

f a r  a s  w ®  c a n  w i t h  t h e  s t u d e n t  h e r e ,  a n d  w e  r e c o m m e n d  

t h a t  h e  b e  t r a n s f e r r e d  t o  t h e  o t h e r  s c h o o l ;  w e  h a v e  n o  

w a y  o f  k n o w i n g  t h e y  w i l l  d o  t h a t ;  s o m e  o f  t h e m  w o n  t ,23



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o f  c o u r s e .

Q, N o v ,  v h e n  y o u  s a i d  w h e n  t h e y  h a v e  r e a c h e d  t h e

s t a g e s  t h a t  y o u  t h i n k  t h e y  c a n  g o  n o  f u r t h e r ,  y o u  

m e a n  a c a d e m i c a l l y  i n  t h e  d e a f  a n d  b l i n d  s c h o o l ?

A  A n d a s  H r .  P a t t o n  p o i n t e d  u p  h e r e  t h i s  m o r n i n g ,

t h e  v o c a t i o n a l  o p p o r t u n i t i e s  i n  t h e  s c h o o l  a r e  

n e c e s s a r i l y  l i m i t e d ,  b e c a u s e  w e  d o n ’ t  h a v e  e n o u g h  

i n  a n y  o n e  o c c u p a t i o n  t o  j u s t i f y  t h e  e x p e n s i v e  e q u i p ­

m e n t  t h a t  w o u l d  b e  r e q u i r e d .  F o r  e x a m p l e ,  i n  

p r i n t i n g ,  i t  w i l l  t a k e  $ 2 0 0 , 0 0 0 . 0 0  w o r t h  o f  p r i n t i n g  

e q u i p m e n t ,  a n d  w e  d o n ’ t  h a v e  o v e r  $ 8 0 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 .  P r i n t i n g  

i s  c h a n g i n g  r a p i d l y  a s  a l l  o t h e r  o c c u p a t i o n s ,  m a c h i n e  

s h o p  a n d  o t h e r s .

Y o u  c o u l d  n o t  p o s s i b l y  e q u i p  a n y  o n e  o f  o u r  

s c h o o l s ,  b u t  w e  l i k e  t o  g e t  a s  m u c h  p r e p a r a t o r y  w o r k ,  

n o t  t h a t  w e  w i l l  t u r n  a n y b o d y  o u t  o f  h e r e  r e a d y  f o r  a  

j o b .

Q, W h e r e  a r e  t h o s e  s t u d e n t s  b e i n g  h o u s e d  t h a t

w i l l  a t t e n d  t h e  t r a d e  s c h o o l ?

A  B e i n g  h o u s e d  i n  a  d o r m i t o r y ,  a n d  a  l o t  o f  t h e m

w i l l  b e  m a r r i e d  a n d  w a n t  t o  l i v e  o u t  i n  t o w n .  

q  i s  t h e r e  a  d o r m i t o r y  a v a i l a b l e  f o r  t h e m ,  o r

23 w i l l  b e  a v a i l a b l e ?



£
1 A W i l l  b e  a v a i l a b l e  b y  t h e  t i m e  t h e  t r a d e  s c h o o l

2 i s  c o m p l e t e d .

3 Q H o w  m a n y  w i l l  i t  h o l d ,  d o  y o u  h a v e  a n y  e s t i m a t e

4 a b o u t t h a t ?

5 A I  t h i n k  t h e y  h a v e  g o t  i t  a r r a n g e d  f o r  s o m e w h e r e

6 b e t w e e n  7 5  a n d  1 0 0 ,  b o t h  m e n  a n d  w o m e n .

7 Q I n  t h e  s a m e  d o r m i t o r y ?

8 A They h a v e  t h e m  s e p a r a t e d .  O n e  w i n g  i s  c o m -

9 p l e t e l y  f o r  w o m e n .

10 Q And one for men?

11 A Y e s .

12 Q W i l l  t h e y  b e  i n t e g r a t e d ?

13 A Y e s ,  t o t a l l y .

14 Q H o w  c l o s e  i s  t h i s  t o  t h e  t r a d e  s c h o o l ?

15 A R i g h t  a d j o i n i n g .

16 Q R i g h t  a d j o i n i n g ?

17 A Y e s ,  s i r ,  a n d  i t  i s  a l s o  a d j o i n i n g  o u r  s c h o o l ,

18 t o o .

19 Q A d j o i n i n g  t h e  D e a f  S c h o o l ?

20 A Y e s .

21 W e  w o n ’ t  a l l o w ,  w e  w i l l  h a v e  t o  p u t  u p  r e g u l a -

22 t i o n s ,  w e  c a n ' t  a l l o w  a d u l t s  o v e r  i n  t h e  s c h o o l  o r

23 s c h o o l  c h i l d r e n  o v e r  t h e r e ,  o f  c o u r s e .



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Q Now, l e t  me ask you about the teachers in the

various schools?

MR. WHITE: Excuse me, l e t  me interrupt you. One 

of the things we were looking for was a l i s t  of teacher 

We haven't received that y e t ,  a l i s t  of teachers with 

the race, and school which they are assigned.

MR. BRADLEY: That's  right.

MR. WHITE: That is in the works?

MR. NEWTON: He is  going to send some of that

to u s ,

MR. WHITE: I thought we could get that today?

MR. BRADLEY: No, s i r ,  I don't think we w i l l  have

time.

Q I believe there has been testimony there were

how many instructors?

A In which school?

Q Well, l e t ' s  say at the Deaf School, both White

a n d  Negro?

A We have given the figure on the number of in ­

stru ctors,  but there are no Negro teachers at this  

academic school, but there are - -

Q You are ta lk in g  about the White Deaf School?

A That's  right.



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Q  A l l  w h i t e  i n s t r u c t o r s ?

A  T h a t ’ s  r i g h t ,  a n d  t h e r e  a r e  e i g h t  t e a c h e r s  i n  

t h e  N e g r o  S c h o o l  f o r  t h e  D e a f ,  N e g r o  t e a c h e r s ,  a n d  I  

b e l i e v e  t h e r e  a r e  t h i r t e e n ,  y o u  h a v e  t h a t  b u l l e t i n ,  

y o u  c a n  c o u n t  t h e m .

Q, Y o u  a r e  j u s t  g i v i n g  t h e m  a p p r o x i m a t e l y ?

A  A b o u t  t h i r t e e n  w h i t e .  I  t h o u g h t  t h e y  w e r e

g o i n g  t o  h a m m e r  p r e t t y  s t r o n g l y  o n  w h a t  t h e  r e a s o n  f o  

- -  w h y  t h a t  s i t u a t i o n  e x i s t s .

M R .  W H I T E :  Y o u  m e a n  h o w  t h e  t e a c h e r s  a r e  d i s t r i

b u t e d ?

A  R i g h t ,  b u t  m a y  I  s a y  f o r  t h e  r e c o r d ,  t h e y  m a y

n o t  w a n t  t o  h a v e  t h i s  o n  t h e  r e c o r d ;  w e l l ,  i t  w i l l  b e  

a l l  r i g h t  w i t h  m e  i f  y o u  d o n ' t .

M a y  I  s a y  h e r e ,  t h e  l a s t  t w o  o r  t h r e e  y e a r s  

w e  h a v e  b e e n  a b l e  t o  f i n d  q u a l i f i e d  N e g r o  t e a c h e r s  

f o r  t h e  D e a f  f o r  t h e  f i r s t  t i m e  i n  t h e  h i s t o r y ,  a n d  

t h i s  i s  n o t  o n l y  i n  A l a b a m a ,  b u t  i f  t h e s e  g e n t l e m e n  

w i l l  l o o k  i n t o  I t  o v e r  t h e  N a t i o n ,  t h e y  w o u l d  f i n d  

t h e  s a m e  t h i n g  t r u e ,  b u t  w e  h a v a a  l a d y  h e r e  w h o  i s  

a  g r a d u a t e  w i t h  a  M a s t e r ’ s  D e g r e e  f r o m  C o l u m b i a ,  

i n  t h e  f i e l d  o f  S p e c i a l  E d u c a t i o n ,  a n d  t h a t  i s  j u s t  

o n e  e x a m p l e .



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W e  h a v e  b e e n  v e r y  p l e a s e d  w i t h  t h e  t y p e  t e a c h e

w e  h a v e  g o t .  I  t o l d  s o m a  o f  t h e m  B e a r  B r y a n t  i s  

v e r y  g o o d  a t  r e c r u i t i n g  f o o t b a l l  p l a y e r s  b e c a u s e  h e  

h a s  a  g o o d  t e a m ,  b u t  I  w o u l d  c h a l l e n g e  h i m  o n  r e ­

c r u i t i n g  g o o d  t e a c h e r s ,  b e c a u s e  I  h a v e  b e e n  p a r t i c u l a r  

p l e a s e d  w i t h  t h e  r e c r u i t m e n t  o f  t e a c h e r s ,  a n d  i n  n o  

i n s t a n c e  h a v e  I f o u n d  t h a t  a n y  e v i d e n c e ,  a n d  1  k n o w  

t h e s e  p r i n c i p a l s  h a v e  n o t  l i e d  t o  m e  a b o u t  i t ,  t h a t  

a n y  N e g r o  h a s  e v e r  m a d e  a p p l i c a t i o n  h e r e  t h a t  c o u l d ,  

b y  a n y  s t r e t c h  o f  t h e  i m a g i n a t i o n  q u a l i f y  t h a t  h a s n ’ t  

b e e n  c o n s i d e r e d .

I  j u s t  h a s t e n  t o  m a k e  t h a t  c o m m e n t  h e r e .  I  h a  v  

b e e n  c o n c e r n e d  a s  a n y b o d y ,  a n d  s o  f a r  a s  I  k n o w ,  i t  

i s  a l m o s t  f i f t y - f i f t y  b e t w e e n  o u r  o n e  s c h o o l  h e r e  o f  

t e a c h e r s  a s  f a r  a s  X  k n o w ,  t h e r e  i s  n o  c o n f l i c t  o f  

i n t e r e s t  a t  a l l  e x c e p t  t h e y  a r e  a l l  c h i l d  c e n t e r e d .  

T h e y  a r e  a l l  t r y i n g  t o  d o  t h e  v e r y  b e s t  f o r  t h e  

c h i l d .

M R .  W H I T E :  H o w  d i d  i t  h a p p e n  a l l  o f  t h e  N e g r o e  

w o u n d  u p  i n  o n e  s c h o o l ?

A  H o w  i s  t h a t ?

Q  A l l  r i g h t .

M R .  W H I T E :  H o w  d i d  —  a r e n ' t  a l l  t h e  N e g r o



t e a c h e r s  i n  e i t h e r  o n e  o r  b o t h  o f  t h e  N e g r o  S c h o o l s ?

A  I n  t h e  N e g r o  D e a f .

M R .  W H I T E :  H o w  d i d  t h a t  h a p p e n ?

A  I  h a v e  t o l d  t h e  p r i n c i p a l  o f  t h e  N e g r o  B l i n d ,  ][

s a i d  I  w a n t  t o  k n o w ,  1  d o n ' t  w a n t  t o  m a k e  a n y  s t a t e ­

m e n t  u n d e r  o a t h ,  I  w a n t  t o  k n o w  f r o m  y o u ,  M r .  M o n r o e  

h a v e  y o u  t r i e d ,  o r  h a v e  t h e r e  e v e r  b e e n  a n y ,  a n d  h e  

s a i d ,  M r .  G e n t r y ,  I  h a v e n ' t  u n c o v e r e d  a n y b o d y  i n  t w o  

o r  t h r e e  y e a r s ,  h a d  a n y  a p p l i c a t i o n  o f  a n y b o d y  w h a t ­

e v e r  t o  t e a c h  t h e  N e g r o  b l i n d ,  a n d  M r .  S c r u g g s  a t  t h e  

W h i t e  B l i n d  s a y s  t h e  s a m e  t h i n g ,  a n d  I  a s k e d  h i m  t h a t  

q u e s t i o n  i n  y o u r  p r e s e n c e ,  a n d  h e  s a i d  w e  h a v e  d e ­

f i n i t e l y  h a d  n o b o d y  t o  a p p l y  f o r  a  t e a c h i n g  p o s i t i o n ,  

Q  A s  I  u n d e r s t a n d  i t ,  t h e r e  a r e  w h i t e  t e a c h e r s  i n

t h e  N e g r o  B l i n d  S c h o o l  a n d  n o  N e g r o  T e a c h e r s  i n  t h e  

N e g r o  B l i n d  S c h o o l ?

A  T h a t ' s  r i g h t .

Q  T h e  o n l y  N e g r o  t e a c h e r s  a r e  i n  t h e  N e g r o

D e a f  S c h o o l ?

A  T h a t ' s  r i g h t .

Q  A n d  t h e r e  a r e  o n l y  e i g h t  o f  t h o s e ?

A  Y e s .

Q  A n d  t h i r t e e n  o r  f o u r t e e n  w h i t e  i n s t r u c t o r s  i n



t h e  N e g r o  D e a f  S c h o o l ?

A  R i g h t .

Q  W h e r e  d o  y o u  g e t  t e a c h e r s  f r o m ,  M r .  G e n t r y ,

t o  t e a c h  i n  t h ®  D e a f  a n d  B l i n d  S c h o o l s ?

A  W e l l ,  w e  g o t  o n e  N e g r o  a n d  t w o  w h i t e s  f r a n  

G a l l a u d e t .  T h a t  i s  t h e i r  o n l y  c o l l e g e  f o r  t h e  

D e a f  i n  t h e  c o u n t r y ,  a n d  t h a t  i s  a t  W a s h i n g t o n .  W e  

w e r e  p l e a s e d  w i t h  a l l  t h r e e  o f  t h e m .  T h e y  a r e  

b i d d i n g  f o r  t h e s e  t e a c h e r s  a l l  t h e  w a y  f r o m  N e w  Y o r k  

t ©  C a l i f o r n i a .  D r .  E l l s  t e d  t o l d  t h e s e  t e a c h e r s  t h i s  

w a s  t h ©  b e s t  s y s t e m .  H e  s a i d  h e  w o u l d  r e c o m m e n d  t o  

a l l  h i s  g r a d u a t e s  t h a t  t h e y  g o  t o  A l a b a m a .

Q. A l l  o f  y o u r  i n s t r u c t o r s  a r e  n o t  g r a d u a t e s  o f  

G a l l a u d e t ,  a r e  t h e y ?

A  N o ,  s i r .

Q. F r o m  t h e s e  a p p l i c a n t s ,  w h a t  s o r t  o f  q u a l i f i c a ­

t i o n s  d o  y o u  r e q u i r e ?

A  W e  l i k e  f o r  a  t e a c h e r  t o  h a v e  a  b a c k g r o u n d ,

r e g a r d l e s s  o f  t h e  d e g r e e  o r  e x p e r i e n c e ,  i n  t e a c h i n g  

c h i l d r e n  w i t h  p r o b l e m s ,  e s p e c i a l l y  i i  t h e  e d u c a t i o n  

f i e l d ;  w e  l i k e  f o r  t h e m  - -  w e  l o o k  a t  w h a t  s c h o o l  

t h e y  a t t e n d e d .  A f t e r  a l l  i s  s a i d  a n d  d o n e ,  t h e  p r i n ­

c i p a l  o f  e i t h e r  o n e  o f  t h e  s c h o o l s  f o r  t h e  d e a f  w i l l



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t e l l  y o u  i n  n o  u n c e r t a i n  t e r m s  t h e r e  i s n ' t  a n y  s u c h  

t h i n g  a s  g e t t i n g  a  t e a c h e r  f r o m  a n y  t e a c h e r  t r a i n i n g  

i n s t i t u t e  t r a i n e d  t o  t e a c h  t h e  d e a f .  Y o u  j u s t  c a n n o t  

f i n d  t h o s e ;  y o u  h a v e  t o  b r i n g  t h e m  i n  a n d  t r a i n  t h e m .  

W e  h a v e  n e w  t e a c h e r s  g o i n g  i n  t h e  c l a s s r o o m s  w i t h  

o t h e r s .

Q  D o  y o u  h a v e  a n y  t r a i n i n g  s c h o o l  f o r  t h e  b l i n d  

t h a t  y o u  c a n  g e t  i n s t r u c t o r s  f r o m ?

A  S o m a  o f  t h e  p e o p l e  i n  t h e  f i e l d ,  o f  c o u r s e ,

m a y  n o t  a g r e e  w i t h  m e ,  b u t  t h e r e  i s n ' t  m u c h  d i f f e r e n c  

i n  t e a c h i n g  a  b l i n d  c h i l d  a n d  a  s i g h t e d  c h i l d  i n  

m a n n e r  o f  t e a c h i n g ;  y o u  h a v e  t o  h a v e  s p e c i a l  t r a i n i n g  

t o  t e a c h  t h e  d e a f ;  b u t  a  c h i l d  w i t h o u t  s i g h t ,  o t h e r  

t h a n  t h e  f a c t  t h e y  r e a d  t h r o u g h  t h e i r  f e e l i n g  r a t h e r  

t h a n  t h e  e y e ,  a n d  y o u  h a v e  t o  g e t  s o  m u c h  w i t h o u t  

h e a r i n g .  P e o p l e  c o m e  f r o m  t h e  p u b l i c  s c h o o l  f i e l d  

Q  T o  t e a c h ?

A  Y e s .

Y o u  w a n t  t h e m  t o  h a v e  p e r s o n a l  c h a r a c t e r i s t i c s .

T h e y  w o u l d  h a v e  t o  l o v e  t o  d o  t h o s e  t h i n g s .

Q  W h a t  a b o u t  a  t r a i n i n g  p e r i o d  b e f o r e  a  p e r s o n

w o u l d  u n d e r t a k e  t o  t e a c h  b l i n d  s t u d e n t s ,  i s  t h e r e  a n y  

t r a i n i n g ,  p r e p a r a t o r y  t r a i n i n g  g i v e n  t o  a  t e a c h e r  b e ­



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f o r e  h e  o r  s h e  u n d e r t a k e s  t o  t e a c h  a  b l i n d  p e r s o n ?

A  S o m e  o f  o u r  t e a c h e r s  h a v e  b e e n  t o  P e a b o d y  i n  

w h i c h  s o m e  s p e c i a l  c o u r s e s  w e r e  o f f e r e d ,  b u t  t h e r e  i i  

v e r y  l i t t l e  t r a i n i n g  a v a i l a b l e .

Q, D o  y o u  h a ' y e a n y  a p p l i c a t i o n  f r o m  p e r s o n s  t o

t e a c h  t h e  d e a f  a n d  b l i n d ?

A  N o ,  W e  h a v e  t o  w r i t e  a n d  i n q u i r e ,  a n d  w e  a r e

j u s t  g r a b b i n g  w h e n  w e  c a n  t o  f i n d  s o m e b o d y .  T h e  

r e a s o n ,  a n d  t h e s e  g e n t l e m e n  m a y  w a n t  t o  h e a r  t h i s ,  

t h e  r e a s o n  w e  h a v e  d i f f i c u l t y ,  a n  a v e r a g e  t e a c h e r  i s  

l o o k i n g  f o r  s e c u r i t y ,  t h e y  s a i d  w i l l  I  g e t  s i d e - t r a c  

o v e r  t h e r e  i n  a  s p e c i a l  s c h o o l  w h e r e  I  h a v e  s e v e r a l  

p o s s i b i l i t i e s  o t h e r w i s e .  T h a t  i s  t h e i r  a r g u m e n t ,  i t  

i s  n o t  e a s y  t o  s e l l  t e a c h e r s  o n  t h e  i d e a  o f  c o m i n g  i n  

a n d  t e a c h i n g  t h e  d e a f  a n d  b l i n d .

Q  O t h e r  t h a n  t h e  t e a c h e r s  i n  t h e  D e a f  a n d  B l i n d

S c h o o l s ,  y o u  h a v e  p e r s o n n e l  t h a t  s u p e r v i s e s  t h e  

c h i l d r e n  w h i l e  t h e y  a r e  i n  t h e  d o r m i t o r y  a n d  w h e n  

t h e y  a r e  o u t s i d e  t h e  c l a s s r o o m ,  d o  y o u ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r .

Q  E x p l a i n  t h a t  t o  m e .

A  E v e r y w h e r e  t h e y  a r e  c a l l e d  h o u s e  p a r e n t s .

T h e y  a r e ,  i n  m y  b o o k ,  a s  i m p o r t a n t  i n  s o m e  r e s p e c t s ,



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S>
164

as the teacher, because they have to be the mother or 

fath er  away from home for these children. We try to 

get high c a l ib e r  - -  high class people with a good 

background of raising  th eir  own fam ilies;  they are 

c e r t a in ly  in the main. Most of them are older people. 

They may be widows or may be a man without a n y  home 

t ie s  except they have reared a family, and their

family is gone.

Q Do they l iv e  in?

A They l iv e  in and they a l l  have their  own

apartments, and we try  to lim it the number of student 

per supervisor to twenty-five to th ir t y ;  that is 

about what we find in the country as a whole. 

q And that person acta as a parent, so to speak,

for  that child or those children under your supervisio  

A Yes.

We were more f ortuna te this year than we have 

ever been. Mr. Strong is s t i l l  f lo a tin g  up in the 

a i r  with his supervisors, women and men.

He hasn't  been able to get those with character  

that he would like  to have, leadership. He had to 

l e t  some go la s t  year, we ju st  had to, but that is 

beside the point now. We do have some good people a

n?

id



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*  b o y  t h a t  g r a d u a t e d  h e r e  s o m e  f o u r  o r  f i v e  y e a r s  a g o ,  

T o m m y  H u d s o n ,  t h a t  b o y ,  w o r k i n g  w i t h  b o y s ,  h e  j u s t  

m e a n s  s o  m u c h  t o  t h e m .

Q, H a v e  y o u  r e f u s e d  t o  e m p l o y  a n y  N e g r o  t e a c h e r  m a k l  

a p p l i c a t i o n ?

A  N o t  a t  a l l .

Q, N o w ,  t e l l  m e  a b o u t  t h e  f o o d  s e r v i c e  p r o g r a m ,

h o w  i s  i t  h a n d l e d ?

A  W e l l ,  t h e  f o o d  i s  d i s t r i b u t e d  t o  e a c h  k i t c h e n .  

E v e r y  k i t c h e n ,  y o u  g o  e a t  a t  a n y  o n e  o f  t h e m  a n y t i m e  

y o u  w a n t  t o ,  t h e y  h a v e  t h e  s a m e  t h i n g ,  e x c e p t  w e  g i v e  

t h e  s u p e r v i s o r  a n d  p r i n c i p a l  t h e  p r i v i l e g e  b e f o r e ­

h a n d ,  t h e y  s a y  t h e i r  c h i l d r e n  d o w n  h e r e  j u s t  d o n ’ t  

w a n t  t o  e a t  t h i s  p a r t i c u l a r  f o o d ,  t h e y  c a n  c h a n g e  i t  

i f  t h e y  w a n t  t o .

Q. I s  t h e r e  a  s t a n d a r d  m e n u  p r e p a r e d  f o r  e a c h  o n e

o f  t h e  s c h o o l s ?

A  T e a ,  s i r .

q  D o  y o u  h a v e  s o m e o n e  w h o  d o e s  t h a t ?

A  O h ,  y e  s  .

Q  W h o  i s  i n  o v e r a l l  c h a r g e  o f  t h e  f o o d  s e r v i c e  a n d

d i s t r i b u t i o n ?

A  Y e s .  W a  h a v e ,  a l o n g  w i t h  o u r  - -  u n t i l  t h i s  y e a r ,



w h e n  m o n e y  g o t  s h o r t ,  w e  h a d  a  p e r s o n  w h o  w a s  p a r t -  

t i m e ,  s h e w s  s u p e r v i s o r  o f  t h e  l u n c h r o o m  p r o g r a m  o f  

t h e  a d u l t  d e p a r t m e n t ,  s h e  p r e p a r e d  t h e  m e n u .  M r .  R a i m j e y  

s t u d i e s  t h a t  c l o s e l y  a n d  M r .  C u l l i s ,  w h o  i s  a  r e t i r e d  

A i r  C o r p s  M e s s  S e r g e a n t ,  a n d  h i s  w i f e  m a n a g e s  t h e  

c a f e t e r i a ,  a n d  e a c h  s u p e r v i s o r  c a n  c o m e  t o  t h e m  a n d  

d e c i d e  o n  m e n u s  a n d  w h a t  f o o d  t h e y  w i l l  h a v e  t o  e a t .

S o  f a r  a s  1  k n o w ,  i n  t h e  l a s t  s i x  y e a r s , w i t h  

t h e  e x c e p t i o n  o f  o n e  p a r e n t  o u t  a t  B e s s e m e r  t h a t  

c o m p l a i n e d ,  a n d  t h e y  s e n t  s o m e b o d y  f r o m  B i r m i n g h a m ,

T h e  B i r m i n g h a m  N e w s ,  a n d  h e  s t a y e d  a  d a y  a n d  a  h a l f  

a n d  h e  w e n t  b a c k  a n d  t h e  l a s t  t h i n g  h e  s a i d  b e f o r e  h e  

l e f t ,  h e s a i d  1  w i s h  m y  w i f e  w o u l d  c o m e  o v e r  a n d  s e e  

w h a t  t h e y  h a d  h e r e  t o  e a t ,  w e  h a v e  n e v e r  h a d  a n y  c o m ­

p l a i n t  a b o u t  t h e  f o o d .

q  T h e  m e n u  i s  s t a n d a r d  f o r  a l l  t h e  s c h o o l s ,  u n l e s s

s o m e  p a r t  o f  i t  i s  c h a n g e d ?

A  B y  r e q u e s t  o f  t h a t  p a r t i c u l a r  s c h o o l .

A n d  w e  h a v e  p l e n t y  o f  f o o d ,  i f  w e  d o n ' t  h a v e  i t  

t h e r e ,  t h e  p r i n c i p a l  g o e s  d i r e c t l y  t o  t h e  s u p e r v i s o r  a  

M r .  C u l l i s  h e l p s  e a c h  p r i n c i p a l  s u p e r v i s e  t h e  d i n i n g  

r o o m .

q  D o  y o u  h a v e  s o m e o n e  i n  e a c h  s c h o o l  t o  l o o k  a f t e r

a d



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t h e  d i n i n g  r o o m  t o  s e e  t h a t  t h e  d i n i n g  r o o m  i s k e p t  

c l e a n  a n d  t h e  f o o d  i s  k e p t  p r o p e r l y ?

A  Y e s .

A n d  I  m i g h t  a d d  t h a t  t h e  b e s t  g r a d e s  t h a t  w e  h a v  

g o t t e n  h a v e  b e e n  f r o m  t h e  N e g r o  S c h o o l s  f r o m  t h e  H e a l t  

D e p a r t m e n t .  T h e y  c o m e  w h e n  w e  l e a s t  e x p e c t  t h e m .  W e  

h a v e  b r a n d  n e w  d i s h w a s h e r s  w i t h  h e a t  b o o s t e r s  t o  m a k e  

t h e m  c l e a n  a n d  t h e y  w i l l  f i n d  n o  c h i p p e d  p l a t e s  o r  

s a u c e r s .

Q. I s  t h e r e  a n y  s u b s t a n t i a l  d i f f e r e n c e  i n  t h e

t a b l e s  a n d  c h a i r s  a n d  s i l v e r w a r e  a n d  t h i n g s  o f  t h a t  

s o r t  b e t w e e n  t h e  w h i t e  a n d  N e g r o  s c h o o l s ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r .

Q. W h a t  i s  t h a t ?

A  Y o u  s a w  t h e  n e w  c a f e t e r i a  a n d  t h e  n e w  f u r n i t u r e

a t  t h e  D e a f  S c h o o l ,  a n d  y o u  s a w  t h e m  o u t  h e r e  w h e r e  

t h e y  s i t  o n  t h e  l i t t l e  r o u n d  t a b l e s  h u n g  o n t o  a  l o w  

t a b l e ;  t h a t  i s  t h e  d i f f e r e n c e .

Q  Y o u  s a y  t h e  n e w e r  e q u i p m e n t  i s  i n  t h e  n e w e r

D e a f  S c h o o l s ?

A  Y e s .

Q  I n  t h a t  c o n n e c t i o n ,  d o e s  t h e  s c h o o l  f u r n i s h

o r  r a i s e  p a r t  o f  i t s  o w n  f o o d ?



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A  W e  g e t  a n  a v e r a g e  o f  1 5 0 0  e g g s  a  d a y .  I t  t a k e s

t w e l v e  o r  f i f t e e n  h u n d r e d  e g g s  a  d a y ;  n o  c h i l d  e a t s  a n  

e g g  o v e r  t w o  d a y s  o l d .  W e  h a v e  t h e  v e r y  b e s t  o f  b e e f .  

W e  r a i s e  a n d  f e e d  o u t  a n y w h e r e  f r o m  n i n e t y  t o  a  h u n d r e  

b e e f  e a c h  y e a r ,  a n d  I  d o n ' t  k n o w  h o w  m a n y  h o g s ,  p r o b a b  

t h r e e  o r  f o u r  h u n d r e d .

W e  h a v e  o u r  o w n  m e a t  p r o c e s s i n g  p l a n t ,  o u r  o w n  

f r e e z e r s ,  a n d  w e  p r o c e s s  o u r  m e a t  a n d  w e  h a v e  c h o i c e  

m e a t  h e r e  t h a t  y o u  c o u l d n ' t  g o  t o  a n y  o f  o u r  f i n e  

s t o r e s  o r  a n y  o f  o u r  g r o c e r i e s  a n d  m e a t  m a r k e t s  a n d  g e  

t h e  q u a l i t y  m e a t  w e  h a v e  f o r  o u r  c h i l d r e n .

O f  c o u r s e ,  b e i n g  c h i l d r e n ,  t h e y  a r e  g o i n g  t o  

d e m a n d  h o t  d o g s  a n d  h a m b u r g e r s .  W h e r e  J a c k  s  h a m b u r g e  

h a s  o n e  a n d  a  q u a r t e r  o u n c e s ,  w e  g i v e  o u r s  t w o  h a m b u r ­

g e r s  o f  t h r e e  o u n c e  s i z e .  I t  i s  t h e  v e r y  b e s t  m e a t  a

t h e  b e s t  f o o d  w e  c a n  g e t .

W e  m a k e  o u r  o w n  b r e a d ;  w e  h a v e  o u r  o w n  p a s t r y  

s h o p .  Y o u  c a n  g o  t h r o u g h  o u r  c a f e t e r i a  a n d  i t  l o o k s  

a l o t  l i k e  B r i t l i n g s  o r  M o r r i s o n ' s  w i t h  a  c h o i c e .

Q  A r e  a n y  o f  t h e  s t u d e n t s  u s e d  i n  t i e  f a r m  o p e  r a t i

A  N o ,  s i r ,  n o t  e x c e p t  a s  a  p a r t  o f  t h e i r  a g r i c u l ­

t u r a l  t r a i n i n g .

q  D o  y o u  h a v e  s o m e  a g r i c u l t u r a l  t r a i n i n g  t h a t  t h e y

rid

o n ?



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a r e  u s e d  f o r ?

A  T h e r e  a g a i n  w e  h a v e  e m p l o y e d  w h a t  w e  c a l l  a n

a g r i c u l t u r e  t r a d e  t e a c h e r  w h o  w i l l  h a v e  c h a r g e  o f  o u r  

h o r t i c u l t u r e  p r o g r a m  a n d  m e a t  p r o c e s s i n g  p l a n  i n  

c o n n e c t i o n  w i t h  t h e  T r a d e  S c h o o l .

T h e r e  a g a i n  * a  s t u d e n t  t h a t  w a n t s  t o  l e a r n  m e a t  

c u t t i n g  a n d  p r o c e s s i n g  a n d  h o r t i c u l t u r e ,  h e  w i l l  

e n r o l l  i n  t h a t  s c h o o l  a n d  n o t  t h i s  o n e .

M R .  W H I T E :  T a l k i n g  a b o u t  t h e  A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t ?  

A  Y e s .  W e  a r e  c u t t i n g  o u t  t h e  b u s i n e s s  o f  p a r t -

t i m e  h e r e  a n d  p a r t t i m e  t h e r e .  W e  k n e w  w e  w e r e  n e a r  

t h e  p o i n t  w h e r e  w e  c o u l d  d o  i t  a l l  a t  o n e  t i m e .  Y o u  

h a v e  t o  r e m e m b e r ,  f o r  t h e  p a s t  t h r e e  o r  f o u r  y e a r s ,  w< 

h a v e  h a d  t o  d o  t h a t  u n d e r  a  c e n t e r  f o r  t h e  D e a f  a n d  

n o w  w e  d o n ' t  h a v e  t o  d o  i t  a n y m o r e .

T h i s  t h i n g  i s  c o m p l i c a t e d  a n d  I  h o p e  t h a t  I  h a v <  

n o t  b o r e d  y o u  t r y i n g  t o  e x p l a i n  w h a t  o u r  d i f f i c u l t i e s  

a r e  a n d  w h a t  t h e  p r o b l e m s  a r e .

Q  A r e  y o u  u s i n g  a n y  o f  t h e  s t u d e n t s  i n  t h e  b a k i n g

d e p a r t m e n t  a n d  p a s t r y  w h e r e  y o u  a r e  t e a c h i n g  t h e m  h o w  

t o  m a k e  p a s t r y ,  f o o d  p r e p a r a t i o n ?

A N o ;  t h e y  d o  i t  b e c a u s e  t h e y  w a n t  t o  h e l p  o u t

w h e n  t h e y  h a v e  a  v a c a n t  p e r i o d ,  a n d  w e  a s k  t h e m  t o  d o



y
1 7 0

1 i t ,  b u t  t h e r e  a g a i n ,  i t  i s  n o t  t r a d e .  W e  a r e  h o p i n g t o ,

2 w e  k n o w  w e  w i l l  h a v e  a  f o o d  p r e p a r a t i o n ,  o n e  o f  t h e

3 f i n e s t  i n  t h e  s o u t h  o r  i n  t h e  c o u n t r y  i n  t h e  n e w

4 t r a d e  s c h o o l ,  a n d  w e  a r e  h o p i n g  t o  m o v e  t h i s  n e w

5 p a s t r y  d e p a r t m e n t  t o  t r a i n  b o y s  a n d  g i r l s  t o  w o r k

6 a s  p a s t r y  p e o p l e .

7 Q, T h a t  w i l l  b e  i n  t h e  t r a d e  s c h o o l ?

8 A  W e  h o p e  s o m e  o f  i t  w i l l  b e  o u t  h e r e .

9 Q  A b o u t  t h e  l a u n d r y ,  t e l l  m e  a b o u t  t h e  o p e r a t i o n

10 o f  t h e  l a u n d r y  a g a i n ?

11 A  W e l l ,  o n  O c t o b e r  1 s t  o f  t h i s  y e a r ,  t h e  i n s t i t u t e,

12 f r o m  t h e  b u d g e t  o f  t h e  i n s t i t u t e ,  i t  c o s t s  u s  a b o u t

13 $ 2 0 , 0 0 0 . 0 0  a  y e a r  l a b o r  t o  o p e r a t e  t h e  l a u n d r y  a n d

14 d r y  c l e a n i n g .

15 q  I s  t h a t  f o r  a l l  t h e  s t u d e n t s  i n  t h e  e n t i r e

16 i n s t i t u t e ?

17 A  Y e s .

18 W h a t  w e  a r e  d o i n g ,  o n  O c t o b e r  1 s t ,  m y  b u d g e t

19 w i l l  s h o w  i t ,  w e  a r e  p a y i n g  t h a t  A d u l t  D e p a r t m e n t

20 $ 2 0 , 0 0 0 . 0 0  t o  d o  o u r  w o r k ;  t h e y  w i l l  b e  t h e  o n e  t h a t

21 h a s  t h e  t r a i n e e s ,  b u t  t h e y  w i l l  s t i l l  e m p l o y  $ 2 0 , 0 0 0 . 00

22 w o r t h  o f  l a b o r ,  a n d  t h e  s t u d e n t s  w h o  g o  i n  t h e r e  w i l l

23 g e t  t h e  a d v a n t a g e  o f  w o r k i n g  u n d e r  t h e  f o l k s  w h o  a r e



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already trained to where they can get professional  

enough to hold a job; and instead of f in ish in g high 

school, that is where most of our students have d i s ­

appeared, because when you dangle $60.00 a week or 

$75.00 a week a t  them, i t  is hard to hold them in 

school.

I w i l l  have to say t h is ,  maybe they haven't  

tr ie d  as hard, but I talked to a boy that cut my hair  

la s t  week before I l e f t  for L o u is v i l le ,  and you know 

what he made on Saturday when he went home; he made 

b e tte r  than $20.00 and the shop tried to get him to 

stay  at home, and he said no, I lack another year or 

two to f in is h ;  that hasn't  been true in that school,  

we haven't been able to hold them.

Does that answer your question why we are 

depeleted? I t  wasn't because they didn 't  have i t  up 

here to do i t  with, i t  was because of that dangling  

out there.

They were short-sighted enough to not get th eir  

education before they went to making the money.

Q Let me ask you again, as of October 1 s t ,  the

Adult Department took over the operation of the laundry? 

A Yes, s i r .



q Prior to that time, you had operated a laundry

and you had students in vocational reh ab ilitatio n  who 

went down there fo r  training?

A For both races, yes, enrolled in the schools.

That is why your question was hard for  me to explain  

this morning, is why a l l  of a sudden you do not have 

these people in the vocational schools; i t  is the 

best thinking, I don't say I agree in every instance,  

but they are going into f u l l  time vocational work, 

they ought to be under a d iffe re n t  curriculum than 

they would in an academic school.

Q Is there any discrimination between Negroes

and Whites as fa r  as the people expeotttures by the 

i n s t i t u t e  of pulbic funds are concerned?

A No, s i r .

q What about classroom f a c i l i t i e s  and teaching

t t e r s ,  teaching materials, is there any discrimina­

tion between Negroes and Whites, as far  as public  

funds material in class roan is concerned and f a c i l i t i e s ?  

A No, s i r ,  Mr. Bradley, there has not been a

questionable d istr ib u tio n ,  or getting i t  a l l  in one 

classroom, i t  has been d istrib u ted ,  what money we have 

for instruction materials and supplies, have been



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d i s t r i b u t e d  o n  a n  e q u i t a b l e  b a s i s  b e t w e e n  a l l  t h e  

s c h o o l s .

Q  W h a t  a b o u t  t h e  f u r n i s h i n g s  i n  t h e  d o r m i t o r y .  W e

h a v e  e s t a b l i s h e d  t h e r e  i s  a  s e p a r a t i o n  o f  r a c e s  i n  t h e  

d o r m i t o r y ,  b u t  w h a t  a b o u t  t h e  f u r n i s h i n g s ?  I s  t h e r e  

a n y  d i f f e r e n c e  i n  t h e  f u r n i s h i n g s ?

A  Y e s ,  t h e r e  i s .

Q  W o u l d  y o u  t e l l  u s  a b o u t  t h a t ?

A  E v e n  i n  o n e  s c h o o l  s y s t e m ,  t h e r e  i s  a  w i d e  v a r i a ­

t i o n .  T h e r e  i s  a  v a r i a t i o n  f r o m  s c h o o l  t o  s c h o o l ,  b u t  

i t  i s  o u r  a i m ,  a n d  g o a l  t o  g e t  a l l  o f  t h e m  u p  t o  a s  

h i g h  a  s t a n d a r d  a s  w e  c a n  t o  m a k e  t h e  c h i l d r e n  c o m f  o r t n b l e , 

h a v e  g o o d s  b e d s  a n d  g o o d  s t o r a g e  c a b i n e t s  f o r  t h e i r  

c l o t h e s  a n d  a l l .

Q  I  b e l i e v e  y o u  w e r e  a s k e d  a b o u t  s t o r a g e  s p a c e  f o r

t h e  s t u d e n t s ,  p a r t i c u l a r l y  i n  t h e  A l a b a m a  D e a f  S c h o o l  

f o r  N e g r o e s .

N o w ,  w i l l  y o u  c o m p a r e  t h o s e  f a c i l i t i e s  w i t h  t h e  

w h i t e  s c h o o l s  h e r e  o n  t h i s  c a m p u s ?

A  W e l l ,  f o r  8 6  c h i l d r e n  y o u  h a w s  t o  b r i n g  a l l  t h e i r

c l o t h e s  u p  t o  o n e  f l o o r  r o o m  a n d  p u t  t h e m  i n  a n d  d o w n  

t h e r e  e a c h  o n e  h a s  h i s  o w n  p l a c e ,  

q  L o c k e r s  t o  p u t  t h e m  i n ?23



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A  Y e s ,  s i r .

Q  A d j o i n i n g  h i s  b e d ?

A  Y e s .

q  N o w ,  i n  t h e  s p a c e  i n  t h e  N e g r o  D e a f  S c h o o l ,

a n d  c o m p a r i n g  t h e  s p a c e  y o u  h a v e  a v a i l a b l e  a t  t h e  

N e g r o  D e a f  S c h o o l  w i t h  t h a t  t h a t  i s  a v a i l a b l e  a t  t h e  

w h i t e  d e a f  s c h o o l ,  w o u l d  y o u  c o m p a r e  t h a t  f o r  u s ?

A  I  w o u l d  s a y  o v e r a l l  i t  i s  a b o u t  t w e n t y - f i v e

p e r c e n t  m o r e  s p a c e  p e r  p u p i l  t h a n  t h e r e  i s  o n  t h i s  

c a m p u s .

Q  A t  t h e  N e g r o  D e a f  S c h o o l  t h a n  t h e  W h i t e  D e a f

S c h o o l ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r .

q  F a c i l i t i e s  i n  t h e  W h i t e  D e a f  S c h o o l  a r e  m u c h

m o r e  c r o w d e d ?

A  I t  h a s n ’ t  a l w a y s  b e e n  t h a t  w a y ;  s o m e  c o m p l a i n t s

c a m e  t o  u s  a n d  w e  k n e w  a b o u t  i t  a n d  w e  t o l d  o f  o u r  

p l a n s  h e r e ,  a n d  w e  h a v e  t h e m  n o w  c o m p l e t e d .

Q  B u t  t h a t  h a s  b e e n  c o r r e c t e d ?

A  Y e s .

q  W h a t  a b o u t  t o i l e t  f a c i l i t i e s ?

A  W e l l ,  t h e r e  a g a i n  y o u  h a r e  t h e  s a m e  d i f f e r e n c e .

Y o u  w i l l  h a v e  g o o d  a n d  b a d ,  b u t  I  w o u l d  s a y  a g a i n  t h a



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most of the worst situ ations that I have found have 

been corrected.

ft Down at the Negro Deaf School, the dormitories,  

are they single  story or multiple story, or what?

A One dormitory is two-story. The other three are

one.

ft Now, what about the white deaf school?

A Well, they are a l l  two-story - -  no, they are 

one except Graves Hall and another,

ft What about the Blind School?

A They are two-stories except one.

ft Whe re?

A  I t  is for the small boys,

ft What campus?

A White Blind.

The others are a l l  one-story.

Now, the classrooms, I would like to get in the 

record something about the classrooms, 

ft T e l l  us about that.

A I think the top classrooms are found in the

Negro Blind; I think the Negro Deaf School has the 

second best,  and the White Blind the third, and this  

campus here, the poorest Class room f a c i l i t i e s .



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Y o u  a r e  s u p p o s e d  t o  h a v e  a b o u t  t w e l v e  d e a f  c h i l  

d r e n  t o  t h e  c l a s s ,  a n d  b y  t h e  t i m e  y o u  g e t  t w e l v e  I n  

t h e r e  w i t h  t h e  t e a c h e r  a n d  a l l  o f  t h e i r  h e a r i n g  a i d s ,  

a  s u p e r v i s o r  c a n * t  g e t  i n  t h e r e ;  i t  w a s n ’ t  b u i l t  f o r  

s c h o o l .  I t  w a s  b u i l t  i n  1 9 2 6  o r  1 9 2 8 ,  s o m e w h e r e  

a l o n g  t h e r e ,  a n d  t h e y  a r e  j u s t  l i t t l e  - -  t h o s e  r o o m s  

t h e y  a r e  j u s t  b a d .

Y o u  h a v e  g o o d  s p a c i o u s  r o o m s ,  g o o d  r o o m s  w i t h  

p l e n t y  o f  s p a c e s  f o r  y o u r  o v e r h e a d  g r o u p  h e a r i n g  a i d s  

a n d  e v e r y t h i n g .

Q, I  b e l i e v e  t h e r e  i s  s o m e  q u e s t i o n  a b o u t  t h e  d e c o

r a t i o n s  i n  t h e  c l a s s r o o m s  a n d  i n  t h e  d o r m i t o r i e s  s u c h  

a s ,  I  b e l i e v e ,  f l o w e r s ,  d r a p e r i e s  a n d  a l l  l i k e  t h a t .

W h o  d o e s  t h a t ;  i s  t h a t  d o n e  o n  o r d e r  o f  t h e  

s c h o o l  b y  y o u ,  o r  t h e  p r i n c i p a l  o r  t h e  t e a c h e r ,  o r  

w h o  d o e s  t h a t ?

A  T h e y  c a l l  m e  h e r e  a n  o l d  m a i d .  I  h a v e  d o n e  i t

d o w n  t h r o u g h  t h e  y e a r s ;  I  h a v e  b e e n  i n  o v e r  7 5  s c h o o l  

o n  e v a l u a t i o n ,  I  a l w a y s  g o  i n  a n d  s e e  h o w  a t t r a c t i v e  

t h e  c l a s s r o o m  l o o k s .  T h e y  s a y  M r .  G e n t r y  m a y  c o m e  u p  

w e  w a n t  o u r  c l a s s r o o m  a t t r a c t i v e .  I t  i s  u p  t o  t h e  

i n d i v i d u a l  t e a c h e r .  A t  e v e r y  t e a c h e r ’ s  m e e t i n g ,  t h e y  

t e l l  m e  y o u  h a v e  a n  a t t r a c t i v e  l i v i n g  a r e a ,  a n d  I  g o  d o w



on Saturday morning and meet with the children and 

supervisors and t e l l  them how a t t r a c t iv e  th eir  zooms 

look and how nice and clean they are; I find them 

cleaning th e ir  Venetian blinds and windows, and they 

take a pride in i t ;  that is  what we are trying to do, 

tr a in  these youngsters to  take a pride in th eir  home. 

Q Where does the money come from for this sort of 

thing?

A It doesn’ t  come from public funds; not a penny 

of i t .  We have spent so m e  money for  the home ec de­

partment to buy some suite r i a l  which they could make 

th e ir  own curtains.

I was invited yesterday rr >rning to a dormitory 

out here of twenty-four g i r l s ;  i t  was pretty  crowded, 

but they had a l i t t l e  party that tiey provided them­

s e l v e s ,  ami they wanted me to see th e ir  rooms, the 

new curtains they had. They took pride in i t .  

q Do outside groups furnish that sort of equip­

ment?

A  They help us a l o t .  The Future Homemakers of

Alabama, that is  g ir la  enrolled in a l l  vocational  

home isaking classes in the S ta te ,  they furnish us a lo t  

of material;  and some of the chapters of Future Home-



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m a k e r s ,  t h e y  f u r n i s h  u s  m o n e y .  W e  t u r n  a l l  t h a t  

m o n e y  w e  c a n  i n t o  m a t e r i a l s  t o  h e l p ,  a n d  I  a s k  t h e m  

p o i n t e d l y ,  i t  c a m e  e n t i r e l y  f r o m  w h i t e  s c h o o l s  i n  t h e  

S t a t e  a n d  t h e y  s a i d ,  M r .  G e n t r y ,  w e  w a n t  y o u  t o  u s e  

t h a t  o n  a l l  y o u r  h o m e s ,  a n d  I  s a i d  A m e n .

Q  D o  y o u  h a v e  a n y  s o r t  o f  o r g a n i z a t i o n s  l i k e

P a r e n t  T e a c h e r s  G r o u p s  i n  P u b l i c  S c h o o l s ?

A  Y e s ,  a n d  M r .  S t r o n g  h a s  t r i e d  a w f u l l y  h a r d ,

b u t  h a s  n e v e r  b e e n  a b l e  t o  g e t  o v e r  s i x  o r  e i g h t  

p a r e n t s  a t  a  P T A  M e e t i n g  i n  h i s  s c h o o l .

Q. T h a t  i s  t h e  N e g r o  D e a f  S c h o o l ?

A  Y e s .

Q  B u t  y o u  d o  h a v e  a n  o r g a n i z a t i o n  o f  p a r e n t s  i n

t h e  W h i t e  D e a f  S c h o o l ?

A  Y e s .

Y o u  s e e  a  f e n c e  a r o u n d  t h i s  a t h l e t i c  f i e l d ,  

$ 1 9 0 0 . 0 0 ,  t h e y  c o n t r i b u t e d  t h a t .

Q  B y  t h e  P a r e n t s  G r o u p ?

A  Y e s .

q  D o  t h e y  f u r n i s h  o t h e r  e q u i p m e n t  t o  t h e  s c h o o l ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r .

Q  S u c h  a s ?

A  O v e r h e a d  p r o j e c t o r s  a n d  a n y t h i n g  t h e  t e a c h e r s



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r e c o m m e n d  t h a t  t h e y  n e e d .

Q  I s  t h e r e  a n y  o t h e r  p r o g r a m  o f  d o n a t i o n s  t o  t h e

s c h o o l  o f  c l o t h i n g ,  o r  e q u i p m e n t ,  o r  f a c i l i t i e s ,  o r  

t h a t  s o r t  o f  t h i n g ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r ;  w e  h a v e  w h a t  w e  c a l l ,  y o u  s e e ,  u s e d

t o  c a l l  i t  c o u n t r y  s t o r e .  I t  h a s  g o t  t o  b e  a  c i t y  

s t o r e .  W e  h a v e  b e a u t i f u l  d r e s s e s ,  c o a t s  a n d  t h i n g s  

t h e y  c a n  r e w o r k ,  a n d  I  b e l i e v e  y o u  f i n d  h e r e  o u r  

c h i l d r e n  a r e  a b o u t  a s  w e l l  d r e s s e d ,  t h o s e  t h a t  a r e  n o  

a b l e  t o  b e  p r o v i d e d  f o r ,  t h e y  a r e  s p o n s o r e d  b y  s o m e ­

b o d y .

Q  I s  t h a t  m a t e r i a l  d o n a t e d  t o  t h e  s c h o o l ,  i s  i t  -

i s  i t  d e s i g n a t e d  o r  d o n a t e d  f o r  a n y  p a r t i c u l a r  c h i l d ,  

o r  g i v e n  t o  t h e  s c h o o l ?

A  P a r t  o f  i t  i n  s o m e  o f  o u r  s c h o o l s ,  t h e y  h a v e

h a d  i n d i v i d u a l  c h i l d r e n  t h a t  t h e y  s p o n s o r  t h a t  t h e y  

k n o w  t h e  h o n e  c o n d i t i o n s  a r e n ' t  s u c h  t h a t  t h e y  c a n  

p r o v i d e  f o r  t h e m ,  b u t  t h e y  u s u a l l y  a s k  t h e  p r i n c i p a l

f o r  t h e  n a m e  o f  t h o s e  c h i l d r e n .

F o r  e x a m p l e ,  t h e  p e o p l e  u p  a t  F o r t  M c C l e l l a n d ,

t h e y  b r i n g  d o w n  a  t r e m e n d o u s  a m o u n t  o f  t h i n g s  f o r  t h e

c h i l d r e n  o v e r  a t  t h e  N e , g r o  B l i n d ,  a n d  t h a t  i s  t h e i r

p r o j e c t .



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T h e y  d o n ' t  w a n t  b u t  o n e ,  a n d  t h a t  i s  w h a t  t h e y  

w a n t .  W e  d o n ' t  t r y  t o  t e l l  t h e m  w h o  t o  g i v e  t o .

Q  B u t  t h e  c l o t h i n g  a n d  o t h e r  m a t e r i a l s  t h a t  a m

e a r m a r k e d  f o r  a n y  p a r t i c u l a r  s c h o o l  o r  p e r s o n  i s  

d i s t r i b u t e d  t o  n e e d y  o n e s ?

A  E v e r y t h i n g ,  e v e r y  h o u s e  p a r e n t  i s  a s k e d  t o  c o m e

i n  a n d  t o  f i n d  a n y t h i n g  t h a t  t h e i r  c h i l d r e n  i n  t h e i r  

s u p e r v i s i o n  n e e d .

Q  I  n o t i c e  i n  t h e  b r o c h u r e  t h a t  i s  s e n t  o u t ,

t o  p r o s p e c t i v e  s t u d e n t s  a n d  t h e i r  p a r e n t s ,  s t a t e s  t h a t :  

t h e  p a r e n t s  o r  g u a r d i a n  p a y s  f o r  o r  s e n d s  m o n e y  t o  t h e  

s c h o o l  t o  b e u s e d  f o r  t h e  p u r c h a s e  o f  p o s t a g e ,  h a i r c u t u  

s h o e  r e p a i r s ,  s p e n d i n g  m o n e y  a n d  s o  f o r t h ,  t h a t  t h e  

o r d i n a r y  c h i l d  w o u l d  h a v e .

S u p p o s e  n o  m o n e y  i s  s e n t ;  w h a t  d o  y o u  d o  a b o u t  

t h a t  s o r t  o f  s i t u a t i o n ?  D o  y o u  h a v e  m o n e y  t o  u s e  f o r  

t h a t ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r ,  w e  h a v e ,  f r o m  t i m e  t o  t i m e ,  p e o p l e  w h o

s e n d  i n  s a y i n g  I  w a n t  t o  s e n d  a  c o n t r i b u t i o n  o f  $ 1 0 . 0 0  

o r  $ 2 5 . 0 0 .  I  a l w a y s  a n s w e r  t h e  l e t t e r  i t  w i l l  b e  u s e d  

f o r  t h e  b e n e f i t  o f  c h i l d r e n  e n r o l l e d  h e r e .  I  n e v e r  

t e l l  t h e m  i t  w i l l  b e  u s e d  i n  t h i s  s c h o o l  o r  t h a t  

s c h o o l  o r  t h e  o t h e r ;  I  k e e p  t h e  p r i n c i p a l s  i n f o r m e d



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o f  w h a t  w e  h a v e .  W e  w o r k  o u t  a  p r o g r a m  o f  t h e i r  n e e d s  

a n d  w e  t r y  t o  d i s t r i b u t e  t h a t  m o n e y  t h a t  i s  n o t  

e a r m a r k e d  t o  t h e  b e s t  a d v a n t a g e  o f  t h e  c h i l d r e n .

Q  N o  d i s c r i m i n a t i o n  m a d e  o n  t h a t ?

A  N o n e  w h a t e v e r .

Q  A b o u t  t h e  l i b r a r y ,  d o n ' t  y o u  h a v e  a  l i b r a r y

h e r e  t h a t  w a s  d o n a t e d ?

A  Y e s ,  s i r .

Q  W o u l d  y o u  t e l l  u s  a b o u t  t h a t ?

A  W e l l ,  K e l l o g g ' s  F o u n d a t i o n ,  t h r o u g h  t h e i r

D e n t a l  P r o g r a m ,  t h e y  u s e d  s o m e  s t u d e n t s  h e r e ,  a n d  

w e  w o u l d n ' t  a l l o w  t h e m  t o  d o  i t  i n  a  c o m m e r c i a l  u n l e s s  

t h e y  g o t  p e r m i s s i o n ,  a n d  t h e  C o l g a t e  P r o g r a m ,  s o  

t h e y  d i d  u s e  t h e  b o y s  a n d  g i r l s  i n  t h a t  - -  t w o  b o y s  

a n d  t w o  g i r l s  i n  t h a t  p r o g r a m  a n d  o f  c o u r s e ,  n o n e  

o f  t h a t  m o n e y  c o u l d  g o  t o  t h e m ,  b u t  i t  a m o u n t e d  u p  t b  

a  s i z e a b l e  a m o u n t ,  e n o u g h  f o r  u s  t o  b u i l d  a  n e w  l i b r a r y  

a t  t h e  s c h o o l .

Q  I t  i s  l o c a t e d  i n  t h e  W h i t e  D e a f  S c h o o l ?

A  Y e s .

Q  T h e  b o o k s  a n d  a l l  a r e  a v a i l a b l e  t o  b e  u s e d

o n  t h e  o t h e r  c a m p u s e s ?

A  Y e s .  A l l  o f  o u r  f i l m  l i b r a r y  a n d  a l l ,  M r s .



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Riser and Mr. Strong use them interchangeably. The 

same being with the psychologist and a l l .

The other day I was out there and twenty-three  

©f the children from other school appeared with the 

p sych o log ist.  He was giving a t e s t .  We just  can’ t 

afford —  you know, psychologists with master degrees 

they don't cone cheap. We could not afford one for 

both schools.

q What about your curriculum at the deaf-blind

school, is there any difference in the curriculum 

for  the Negro blind and White blind and Negro deaf 

and White deaf?

A  Well, there are possibly some things that one

principal  emphasizes with her s t a f f  and her supervise 

and teaches more than the others would.

Q That would depend on the child?

A That would depend on the principal too, but

a c t u a l l y ,  your methods of teaching the deaf, which 

y o u  g o  in any classroom and watch them, in the p r i ­

mary and elementary school, or in the high school or 

intermediate school, and not being trained in the 

know how of teaching a deaf c h ild ,  how to get them 

where they can have some oral expression, i t  is a



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very in t r ic a t e  a f f a i r ,  but I can go into most any 

classroom and I find, as far  as I am concerned, i t  looks 

l ike  they are making excelle n t progress, and I go 

in another classroom another day, and they may be 

making more progress than the others, but I just  

don't see i t ,  from where I observe, but I would say 

by and large they are following about the same, a l l  

schools in the country, teachers follow about the 

same method of instruction.

Is that true for the blind, in teaching the

blind?

A Yes; we use more blind teachers than we do

deaf teachers.

Q Would you explain that?

A Yes, s i r ,  because a blind teacher can do in

c erta in  areas, e s p e c ia l ly  in music, they can do a 

b e tte r  job than one of us could with a sighted  

person. A child can understand better.  On the 

other hand, there are some things that you would do 

for  the blind that you wouldn't want the blind teacher  

to  attempt; the same thing of a deaf.

Seven years ago in Birmingham I went to a 

convention of the Deaf in the State and they jumped on



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m e  w i t h  a l l  f o u r s  a b o u t  a o t  e m p l o y i n g  m o r e  d e a f  

t e a c h e r s .  W e  e m p l o y  d e a f  t e a c h e r s ,  w e  h a v e  a  l o t  o f  

t h e m  u p  i n  t h e  i n t e r m e d i a t e  a n d  h i g h  s c h o o l  g r a d e s ,  b u t  

w h o e v e r  h e a r d  t e l l  e m p l o y i n g  a  d e a f  t e a c h e r  t o  t e a c h  

s p e e c h  t o  a  d e a f  p e r s o n ?  Y o u  s e e ,  y o u  j u s t  d o n ’ t  d o  

t h a t ,  y o u  h a v e  t o  h a v e  s o m e b o d y  w i t h  s p e c i a l  k n o w l e d g e  

i n  o r d e r  t o  t e a c h  s u c h ;  a  d e a f  p e r s o n  c o u l d  n o t  d o  

t h a t  a t  a l l .  W h e n  I  e x p l a i n e d  t h a t ,  t h e y  s e e m e d  t o  b e  

p r e t t y  w e l l  s a t i s f i e d .

q  A l l  r i g h t .

1  b e l i e v e  y o u  s t a t e d  t h a t  t h e  p a y m e n t  o f  

s a l a r i e s  t o  t e a c h e r s  w a s  o n  a  s c a l e  o f  r a n k  o n e  

t h r o u g h  f i v e ?

A  B a n k  o n e  t h r o u g h  f i v e ,  t h a t ' s  r i g h t ,

q  T h a t  i s  c o m p a r a b l e  t o  t h e  c e r t i f i c a t e  t h a t  t h e

p u b l i c  s c h o o l  t e a c h e r  h o l d s ;  i s  t h a t  c o r r e c t ?

A  1  d o n ’ t  t h i n k  w e  h a v e  a  s i n g l e  o n e  b e l o w  i t .

q  C o m p a r a b l e  r a n k  t o  P u b l i c  S c h o o l  b u t  n o t  A l a b a m a

A  A l l  o f  t h e  p u b l i c  s c h o o l  f u n d s  a r e  d i s t r i b u t e d

t o  t h e  C i t y  a n d  C o u n t y  B o a r d s  o f  E d u c a t i o n .  I  d o n ' t  

t h i n k  w e  h a v e  a  t e a c h e r  b e l o w  t h a t  r a n k .  

q  T h a t  i n c l u d e s  w h i t e  a n d  c o l o r e d ?

?

23 A Y e s ,  s i r .



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Q, I  b e l i e v e  y o u  s t a t e d  t h a t  t h e  r a t i o  o f  e n r o l l ­

m e n t  i n  w h i t e  a n d  M e g r o  S c h o o l s  i s  a b o u t  t w o  t o  o n e ,  

t w o  w h i t e s  t o  o n e  N e g r o ?

M R .  N E W T O N :  H e  s a i d  a b o u t  s i x t y - f o r t y .

M R .  W H I T E :  I t  i s  a b o u t  t w o  t o  o n e .

Q  A n d  t h e  t e a c h e r s  a b o u t  t h e  s a m e  r a t i o ?

A  Y o u  m e a n  - -

Q  T h e  n u m b e r  o f  t e a c h e r s ,  w h i t e  t o  N e g r o

t e a c h e r s ?

A  N o ,  I  w o u l d n ’ t  s a y  t h e  s a m e  p r o p o r t i o n ;  I

j u s t  d o n ’ t  h a v e  a n y  - -  y o u  m e a n  w i t h i n  o u r  s c h o o l  

s y s t e a ?

Q  Y e s .

A  O f  c o u r s e ,  t h a t  v a r i e s  f r o m  s c h o o l  t o  s c h o o l ,

w e  h a v e  n o  N e g r o e s  i n  t h e  W h i t e  B l i n d  a n d  W h i t e  D e a l  

a n a  w e  h a v e  s n o u t  e i g h t  t o  t h i r t e e n ,  i t  w o u l d  b e  

c l o s e  t o  f i f t y  p e r c e n t  o u t  o f  2 1  t e a c h e r s ,  y o u  

h a v e  e i g h t  o f  t h e m  i n  o n e  s c h o o l .

Q  N o w ,  a t  t h e  p r e s e n t  t i m e ,  y o u  a r e  s t i l l

t e a c h i n g  v o c a t i o n a l  s u b j e c t s  a l o n g  w i t h  t h e  a c a ­

d e m i c  s u b j e c t s .

N o w ,  w h e r e  d o  y o u  s t a r t  t e a c h i n g  v o c a t i o n a l  

s u b j e c t s ,  w h a t  a g e  l e v e l ?



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D o  y o u  d o  t h i s  b y  a g e  l e v e l ,  g r a d e  l e v e l  o r

w h a t ?

A  T h a t  d e p e n d s .  A g e ,  g r a d e  - -  i t  d e p e n d s  o n  

w h e r e  y o u  h a v e  a  v a r y  s l o w _ l e a r n e r ;  h e r e  i s  a  b o y  

r e a c h i n g  s i x t e e n  o r  s e v e n t e e n  y e a r s  o l d ,  h e  i s  a  

s l o w  l e a r n e r ,  l e t ' s  g i v e  h i m  m o r e  t i m e  v o c a t i o n a l l y ,  

b e c a u s e  y o s  k n o w  f r o m  t h i s  p o i n t  o n  t h e y  w i l l  n e v e r  

f i n i s h  s c h o o l ,  s o  y o u  w o u l d  l e a n  h e a v i l y  t o w a r d s  

i n d u s t r i a l  a r t s  a n d  e v e r y t h i n g  t h e y  c a n  d o  b e t t e r  

w i t h  t h e i r  h a n d s .

Q  A b o u t  w h a t  p o i n t  d o  y o u  t h i n k  y o u  r e a c h  t h e  

d e c i s i o n  t o  s t a r t ?

A  W e l l ,  i t  s h o u l d n ' t  e v e r  o c c u r  b e f o r e  a  c h i l d  

h a s  g o t  a t  l e a s t  a  f u l l  t i m e  a c a d e m i c  s i x t h  g r a d e .

Q  S o  t h e  e q u i v a l e n t  t o  s i x t h  g r a d e  i s  t h e  p o i n t  

w h e r e  y o u  s t a r t  t h i n k i n g  a b o u t  v o c a t i o n a l  w o r k ?

A  Y e s ;  t a k i n g  t h i s  l e v e l ,  d o e s n ' t  m e a n  w e  d o n ' t  

h a v e  s o m e  b e l o w  t h e  s i x t h  g r a d e  l e v e l ,  b u t  w e  s h o u l d  

n o t .  A n y t i m e  y o u  r o b  o n e  o f  a c a d e m i c  d e v e l o p m e n t  

a s  f a r  a s  t h e y  a r e  c a p a b l e ,  a s  t h e i r  m e n t a l  c a p a c l t l i t  

w i l l  c a r r y  t h e m ,  a n y t i m e  y o u  r o b  t h e m  b y  s h u n t i n g  t h < n  

o f f  i n t o  c o m m e r c i a l  s e w i n g  o r  h o m e  e c o n o m i c s  o r  s o m e  

s h o p  w o r k  t o o  e a r l y ,  y o u  h a v e  k i l l e d  t h e i r  c h a n c e s



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o f  e v e r  g e t t i n g  a s  m u c h  a c a d e m i c  a s  w e  w o u l d  l i k e  

t o  s e e  t h e m  h a v e ,

Q  I  b e l i e v e  y o u  s a i d  t h e  t r a d e  s c h o o l ,  t h a t  t h e

m i n i m u m  a g e  t h e r e  w o u l d  b e  s i x t e e n ?

A  T h a t * s  r i g h t .

Q, N o w ,  t h e r e  w o u l d  b e  s o m e  v o c a t i o n a l  w o r k  t h a t  a

s t u d e n t  w o u l d  t a k e  p r i o r  t o  t h e  t i m e  h e  w o u l d  b e  c o n s  

d e r e d  f o r  t h e  t r a d e  s c h o o l ,  a m  I  c o r r e c t ?

A  W e  a r e  h o p i n g ,  e v e n  t h o u g h  w e  k i n d  o f  d r e w  a

l i n e  b e g i n n i n g  t h e  o p e n i n g  o f  t h i s  s c h o o l  t e r m  w h i c h  

h a s  b e e n  b r o u g h t  o u t  i n  o t h e  r  q u e s t i o n s ,  w a  a r e  

h o p i n g  t h a t  t h i s  t h i n g  w i l l  w o r k  o u t  a n d  w e  w i l l  h a v e  

t o  g i v e  i t  a  t r y ,  t o  w h e r e  w e  c a n  p u s h  s o m e  s t u d e n t s  

i n t o  t h a t  t r a d e  s c h o o l  f o r  a  h a l f  d a y ' s  w o r k  a n d  l e t  

t h e m  r e m a i n  i n  f e e i r  p r e s e n t  a c a d e m i c  s i t u a t i o n ,  

b u t  t h a t  h a s  g o t  t o  b e  i r o n e d  o u t ;  w e  h a v e  j u s t  g o t  

t o  p l a y  t h a t  b y  e a r ,  t h i s  i s  n e w ;  t h e r e  i s  n o t h i n g  

i n  t h e  c o u n t r y  c o m p a r a b l e  t o  i t .  T h e r e  i s  n o  o t h e r  

i n s t i t u t i o n  i n  t h e  c o u n t r y  t h a t  m a i n t a i n s  a  s c h o o l  

a n d  a  s p e c i a l  t e c h n i c a l  s c h o o l  t o o .

Q, A m  I  c o r r e c t  i n  a s s u m i n g  t h a t  t h e  t e s t i m o n y  h a s  

b e e n  t h a t  a t  t h e  p r e s e n t  t i m e  t h e r e  a r e  n o  v o c a t i o n a l  

c l a s s e s  t h a t  h a v e  b o t h  w h i t e  a n d  N e g r o  i n  t h e m ?



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A  I  u n d e r s t a n d  t h a t .  I  h a v e  n o t  —  I  h e s i t a t e d

to a n s w e r  t h a t  t h i s  m o r n i n g  u n t i l  I  v e r i f i e d  i t .

Q  W h a t  a b o u t  l a s t  y e a r ,  w a s  t h a t  s o  f o r  l a s t  

y e a r ?

A  N o .

Y o u  a s k e d  m e  t o  p r o v i d e  y o u  w i t h  t h a t  a n d  I  

w i l l  d i g  i n t o  t h a t  a n d  f i n d  o u t .

Q  I  w i l l  a s k  y o u  t o  g e t  t h e  b r e a k  d o w n  f o r  t h a t

l a s t  y e a r  o n  t h e  c o u r s e s ,  t h e  n a m e s  a n d  s t u d e n t s ?

A  N o w ,  f r a n k l y ,  g e n t l e m e n ,  I  f e e l  r a t h e r  k e e n l y

t h a t  m y  m i n d  i s n ’ t  b y  a n y  m e a n s  m a d e  u p .  I  s e e  s o m e  

a d v a n t a g e s  i n  t h i s  c u t - o f f  b e t w e e n  y o u r  a c a d e m i c  

a n d  t r a d e  s c h o o l .  L e t ' s  g o  a l l  t h e  w a y  o n e  v a y  o r  

t h e  o t h e r ,  b u t  1  s e e  s o m a  d i s a d v a n t a g e s  t o  t h e  b o y s

a n d  g i r l s ,  a n d  I  t h i n k  w e  a r e  a l l  g o i n g  t o  w a k e  u p  i n

a  y e a r  o r  t w o  t o  r e a l i z e  t h a t  t h i s  n e w  t e c h n i c a l  

s c h o o l  c a n  b e n e f i t  f r o m  t h a t  h a v e n ’ t  r e a c h e d  t h e  a g e  

t o  c u t  l o o s e  c o m p l e t e l y  f r o m  o u r  s c h o o l s ,  b u t  t h a t  i s  

t o  b e  d e t e r m i n e d  l a t e r .

T h a t  i s  a  m a t t e r  o f  l e t t i n g  u s  w o r k  i t  o u t  a s  

w e  c a n .  U .  S .  O f f i c e  o f  E d u c a t i o n  a n d  O f f i c e  o f  

R e h a b i l i t a t i o n ,  W a s h i n g t o n ,  a r e  v e r y  m u c h  i n t e r e s t e d  

a n d  c o n c e r n e d  i n  t h e  t h i n g s  1  a m  t e l l i n g  y o u .  W h a t



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t h e y  a r e  t r y i n g  t o  g e t  a l l  S t a t e  S c h o o l s  t o  d o  i s  

g e t  s e p a r a t e  d e p a r t m e n t s  o r  b e t t e r  q u a l i t y  v o c a t i o n a l  

w o r k  s o  y o u  w i l l  h a v e  y o u r  f e e d e r s  f r o m  t h e  s c h o o l .

Q  Y o u  h a v e  t e s t i f i e d  a l r e a d y  y o u  h a v e  s u b m i t t e d  a

p l a n  t o  H E W  b a c k  i n  J u l y ,  1 9 6 5 ?

A  A n d  t h e n  w e  g a v e  t h e  c o m m i t t e e  m o r e  d e t a i l ,

Q  A n d  t h e y  v i s i t e d  y o u r  i n s t i t u t i o n  i n  t h e  f i r s t

p a r t  o f  1 9 6 7 ?

A  R i g h t .

Q, B e t w e e n  t h e  t i m e  y o u  s u b m i t t e d  a  p l a n  a n d  t h e

t i m e  t h e  c o m m i t t e e  m e t ,  d i d  y o u  e v e r  g e t  a n y  c o n f i r m a t i o n  

o f  t h e  p l a n ,  i n d i c a t i n g  t h a t  t h e y  h a d  a p p r o v e d  o r  

d i s a p p r o v e d  t h e  p l a n ?

A  N o .

Q Since the committee did v i s i t  you, have you

received any indication from HEW indicating whethe r or 

not HEW had approved or disapproved the o rig in al  

p l a n ?

A No, nothing in writing on the written record as

to what this  committee did.

1 w i l l  have to say in honesty to you, I have 

had two c a l l s  and asked me how we were progressing.  

They said they had received - -  had reviewed our folder



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a g a i n  a n d  Che p r o p o s a l  w e  m a d e ,  said w e  ar e  i n t e r e s t e d  

i n  it a n d  w a n t  t o  k n o w  h o w  y o u  w e r e  p r o g r e s s i n g .

1 said, w e l l ,  the last c a l l  came, I ha d  to tell 

t h e m  this, 1 c a n ' t  get a n y  f u r t h e r  i n f o r m a t i o n  now 

as to h o w  w e  are p r o g r e s s i n g ,  b e c a u s e  this is o u t  of 

a y  h a n d s  a n d  y o u r  hands, an d  b o t h  h a n d s ,  a n d  if the 

—  it is i n  the courts, and that is a l l  I c o u l d  t e l l  

them.

Q B u t  they h a v e  had it since 1965 a n d h a v e n ' t  

i n d i c a t e d  h o w  t h e y  felt a b o u t  it?

A  T h a t ' s  rightj they h a v e  told m e  p e r s o n a l l y  h o w  

t h e y  felt, b u t  1 am not g o i n g  to q u o t e  a n y b o d y ,  

q. Mow, y o u  h a v e  stated y o u  e x p e c t e d  the trade

s c h o o l  to g o  i n t o  o p e r a t i o n  on J a n u a r y  1, 1968?

A  W e  think, the last e x t e n s i o n  of time gave 

th e m  u n t i l  the 15th, bu t  he tells me he w i l l  get 

it t h r o u g h  ear l i e r ,  but the o p e n i n g  w e  t h i n k  w i l l  be 

b y  the s e c o n d  s e mester.

Q  1 b e l i e v e  y o u  have a l s o  s t a t e d  th e r e  is to be

m new b u i l d i n g  c o n s t r u c t e d  on this ca m p u s ?

A  T h a t ' s  right, a b e g i n n e r ' s  school.

Q Ha s  that c o n t r a c t  b e e n  let?

A Y e s .



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with that building?

A The low bidder told me yesterday afternoon his

bondsman would approve his performance bond, he hoped 

to have i t  ready this afternoon, or at the l a t e s t ,  

Monday, and we c a n 't  give him the go-ahead sign al  

u n t i l  we have the performance bond.

That w i l l  take care of f i f t y  children.

Q, What sort of f a c i l i t y  w i l l  that be?

A I t  w i l l  be for children who should not go direct)!y

into a beginner's or f i r s t  grade s itu a tio n .  I like  

to think of i t  as being what educators a l l  over the 

country c a l l  i t ,  a g lo r if ie d  kindergarten.

We have schools that have gone this d ire c tio n ,  

in which they would bring children in at lea st  one 

year before they determined where they would place 

them. They have a t r i a l  period of one year, and we 

hope to le t  the bars down a l i t t l e  below the sixth  

grade level,, that w i l l  take a L e g is la tiv e  Act, and 

we would admit f i f t y  children into that school.

Q Is that for Deaf or Blind?

A No, ju st  for Deaf. As I indicated this  morning,

i t  would be probably three or four of the deaf-blind



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come in there, but that school would be, a t  the time 

- -  a f t e r  we have had our two week evaluation of a l l  

our applicants,  and the children that have been 

referred to us, and th eir  fa m ilie s ,  I envision that  

school to be a placement of children of both races 

in that beginner's school. That is wlat i t  is being  

b u i l t  fo r  and intended.

Q I t  won't be ju st  for the white race?

A Mo.

new

MR. BRADLEY: I think th a t 's  a l l .

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. WHITE;

Q The expense thing, is that on the ta b le ,  the 

expenditures for  the l a t e s t  - -  for the l a s t  f i s c a l  

year?

MR. NEWTON: I think they are going to give you

tha t .

Q Is that something that w i l l  be forwarded?

A Our bookkeeper w i l l  provide you a report

to the State Board of Education when i t  comes out in 

the annual report, and we w i l l  a lso  show you in there 

the itemized expenditures for sa la rie s  and fo r  ope rati ion 

of the school.

MR. NEWTON: Those are things you w i l l  send to



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US?

A Yes.

Q There is another thing that I think we should 

l ike  and th is  is not very d i f f i c u l t ,  th is  would be 

the number of students in each grade of each school. 

You t e s t i f i e d  that a l l  e igh t Negro teachers who are 

employed by the I n s t i t u t e  are assigned to the Negro 

School fo r  the Deaf?

A That's right.

Q You a lso  t e s t i f i e d  that neither you nor any

princip al  had ever received a request from a Negro 

teacher to teach anywhere e l s e ;  is that right?

A As far  as I know; I try  my best.

Q, Does that mean each Negro teacher, when he

came to you, asked to be assigned to the Negro 

School for the deaf?

A Well, now, I ju s t  - -

Q How did they wind up at  the Negro school for

the deaf as opposed to the white school for the 

deaf?

A I believe we asked Mr. Strong that question

the other day and that they never showed up here.  

They would go d i r e c t l y  to him. Agfar as I know, I



have never had a one show up here.

Q Does not his a p p lication  have to be approved? 

Don't you have to interview or somebody in your stafjf  

interview that teacher?

A The p rin c ip a ls ,  and this is  followed by adminis­

tra tio n  of schools, not a l l  ofthem do i t ,  but I 

have been in schools and evaluated schools where a 

superintendent was - -  would l e t  a teacher come into  

his o f f i c e  in a C i t y  School System, and your C ity  

Superintendent of Education in Birmingham is one of 

them, was principal of that school.

The f i r s t  thing he knew the superintendent tol£  

him, and he d id n 't  stay  in that school,  and I wouldn1 

blame him, he said here is Hiss so and so or Mr. 

so and so, she is going to teach with you. I t e l l  

every teacher they must go into th e ir  employment witfi 

the principal and I go with them to the

p rin c ip a l,  and I am not - -  we have had scane, a f t e r  

we had a good discussion of i t ,  we ju st  d id n 't  consider,  

but I don’ t go over the p r in c ip a l 's  head in re­

commending teachers.

Q The record shows, and you have admitted, that

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the p o lic y  has been when you became President, and



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i t  h a s  b e e n  c a r r i e d  o n ,  t o  a s s i g n  s t u d e n t s  o n  t h e  

b a s i s  o f  r a c e  t o  t h e s e  s c h o o l s  w h e n  t h e y  c o m e  i n ?

I s n ' t  i t  a l s o  t r u e  i t  h a s  b e e n  a n d  s t i l l  i s  t h e  

p o l i c y  o f  a s s i g n i n g  t e a c h e r s  t o  s c h o o l s  o n  t h e  b a s i s  

o f  r a c e  s o  t h a t  N e g r o  t e a c h e r s  a r e  g o i n g  t o  b e  a s s i g n 4 d  

t o  N e g r o  S c h o o l s ?

A  N o ;  I  b e l i e v e  t h e  e v i d e n c e  w i l l  s h o w  I  d o n ' t  k n ^ w

w h a t  w o u l d  h a p p e n  i f  o n e  h a d  a s k e d  t o  c o m e  t o  t h i s  

s c h o o l .

Q, I f  o n e  h a d  a s k e d ?

A  N o b o d y  h a s  e v e r  a s k e d .

Q  A r e  y o u  s u g g e s t i n g  e a c h  a n d  e v e r y  w h i t e  t e a c h e r

w h o  i s  a t  t h e  W h i t e  D e a f  S c h o o l  h a s  a s k e d  t o  b e  a s s i g r j e d  

t o  t h e  W h i t e  D e a f  S c h o o l ?

A  Y e s .

Q  A r e  t h o s e  r e q u e s t s  s u p p o r t a b l e  i n  a n y  w a y ,  o r

i s  t h i s  w o r d  o f  m o u t h ?

A  T h i s  i s  j u s t  w o r d ;  I  h a v e  h a d  s o m e  t e a c h e r s  t o

a p p l y  a t  t h i s  s c h o o l .

Q. H o w  a b o u t  h o u s e  m o t h e r s ,  d o  t h e y  r e q u e s t  w h e r e  

t h e y  w a n t e d  t o  b e  s o  a s s i g n e d ?

A  W e l l ,  y o u  m e a n  a t  t h e  w h i t e ?

Q  Y e s ,  s i r ,  i n  t h e  w h i t e  s c h o o l s ,  a n d  i n  t h e  N e g r c



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Schools?

A As f a r  as the white parents and Negro parents

that is correct,  th at  is  d i r e c t l y  done by Mr.

S t rong.

Q Does the white house mother do the same thing?

A They come to Mrs. Riser and ask for  a job and

then they bring me in the pictu re.  

q I s n ' t  i t  d i f f i c u l t  to believe thiscould be

gratuitous in view of the segregation of students?

A Well, we have lived in th is  country a long 

time and i t  is  not beyond reason any teacher would 

come in here and say I want a job a t  the sc h o o l; I

don't have one here, but I have said would you be 

interested in teaching, we are having a d i f f i c u l t  

time to find teachers for the Negro Deaf School, an< 

that is one reason we have some white teachers then  

because we could not find any Negro teachers.

Q Do the Negro teachers that you have, by and

large, on th eir  paper q u a l i f i c a t io n s ,  q u a lif y  as 

good as or b e tte r  than the other white te a ch ers, 

l e t ' s  say, at  the Deaf School?

A No, I wouldn’ t say so. There are some b e tte r

a  nd s ome no t .



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Q Not as good? You d on't  th in k the Negro teache

on the whole have a b e t t e r  paper qualification?

A No, s i r ;  I think some of them with good paper

q u a l i f i c a t i o n s  d o n 't  measure up, and my superintende  

would t e l l  you t h a t .  I would l ik e  to  see them g e t  

on a higher plane.

MR. WHITE: That is  a l l  fo r  me.

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rs

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FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT

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C E R T I F I C A T E

S T A T E  OF ALABAMA )

J E F F E R S O N  C O U N T Y  )

I ,  Thomas P. Meador, O f f i c i a l  Court Reporter, 

hereby c e r t i f y  that I c o r r e c t ly  reported in shorthaiv 

the foregoing deposition at the time and place 

stated in the caption hereof; that I l a t e r  reduced 

my shorthand notes into typewriting, or under my 

supervision; that the foregoing pages numbered 

four through one hundred ninety-seven, both in c lu -  

s iv e ,c o n ta in  a f u l l ,  true and correct copy of pro­

ceedings had in said cause.

I further c e r t i f y  that I am neither of counsel

nor kin to the parties to the cause, nor in any 

manner interested in the results thereof.

COMMISSIONER - NOTARY PUBLIC