Allgood v. Brewer and United States v. School Board of the City of Norfolk, Virginia Petition for a Writ of Certiorari
Public Court Documents
May 18, 1972
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Bailey v. Patterson Mimeographed Record Vol. II, 1961. 5b3ed391-ba9a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/8f29b1ce-da3c-4859-9fbf-f63530373cfd/bailey-v-patterson-mimeographed-record-vol-ii. Accessed May 12, 2025.
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UNITED STATES
COURT of APPEALS
F I F T H C I R C U I T
No.
SAMUEL BAILEY, ET AL,
APPELLANTS
VERSUS
JOE T. PATTERSON, ET AL,
APPELLEES
Volume II
Appeal from the United States District Court
for the Southern District of Mississippi,
Jackson Division
MIMEOGRAPHED RECORD
I N D E X
Samuel Bailey, Et al
Versus
Joe T. Patterson, Et Al
VOLUME II Page No.
Transcript of Testimony Continues
Testimony of ALTON B. SMITH
[ J. WILL YOUNG
" CICERO CARR, JR.11 MEDGAR W.- EVERS
Plaintiffs1 Exhibit 25; Letter from I.C.C.
Testimony of ALTON B. SMITH, Recalled
Plaintiffs' Exhibit 26: Report of Bus Driver
Testimony of THOMS A. TURNER
Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2f: Lease
Testimony of DORIS RUTII GRAYSON
" THOMAS ii ARMSTRONG
Plaintiffs' Exhibit 28; Certified copy of
Affidavit of Arrest oe Judgment Record
Plaintiffs' Exhibit 29 : letter Extending
Lease
Testimony of JOHNNY FRAZIER
" " HELEN G. O'NEAL
Defendants' Exhibit 1: Armed Forces Security
Questionnaire
Testimony of WILMA J. JONES
" " MRS. VERA PIGEE
" MRS. MILDRED C. COSEY
Plaintiffs" Exhibit 50: Ticket Stubs
Testimony of ALLEN C. THOMPSON
Plaintiffs' Exhibit 51: Ordinances of City
of Jackson
Testimony of WM. D. RAYFIELD
197
250
251
251
237
245
257
271
27 6
276
305312
(R-983) VOLUME II
197
TRANSCRIPT OF TESTIMONY CONTINUED
(After Recess)
ALTON B. SMITH, called as a witness and having been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
EXAMINATION
BT MRS. MOTLEY:
Q» State your full name, please.
A. Alton B. Smith.
Q. Are you employed by the Jackson City Lines?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. What position do you hold?
A. Superintendent.
Q. Pardon?
A. Superintendent.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
A.
As superintendent, do you have any jurisdiction over the
drivers of the buses of Jackson City Lines?
Yes.
In the buses which are operated by the Jackson City Lines
here in the City of Jackson, Mississippi, are there any
signs in those buses?
Some have signs and some do not.
>84)
Which ones have signs and which ones do not?
Well, the ones that do not are the ones that have been
torn out.
Q. By the company?
A. No, not by the company. By passengers on the bus.
198
(R-984)
Q. What do those signs say?
A. It's a small sign placed in the top of the bus that says
"White" on one side and "Colored" on the other.
Q. Are there signs anywhere else in the bus?
A. Some of the buses, there’s a sign, the right upper part
of the windshield, that says "White will load from the
front - Colored will load from the rear."
Q. Are there any other signs on these buses?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Who put these signs in there?
A. You mean originally?
Q. Yes.
A. Since I been with the company, they were already there.
Q. In other words, the signs were put there by the company?
A. I assume so.
BY MR. CLARK: He says they were there before he came
to the company.
BY JUDGE RIVES: He is the superintendent of the company.
Overrule the objection.
Q. Is there a company policy which requires Negroes to load
from the rear, as you say, and whites to load from the
(R-985)
front?
A. No policy. No company policy.
BY MR. CLARK: Objection, on the best evidence rule. Is
she talking about now a written policy of the company?
199
(H-985)
BY MRS. MOTLEY: No, I didn’t say written.
BY MR. CLARK: ¥efd like to know more about Mr. Smith’s
duties before we think he would be competent to— •
BY JUDGE RIVES: He has answered no, as I understand.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Yes, that’s right.
Q. What are the signs doing up there then, Mr. Smith, if you
have no policy to this effect?
A. It is for loading purposes.
Q. For loading purposes?
A. That's right.
Q. Would you explain that?
A. Well, the colored sit behind the signs and the white sit
in front of the signs.
Q. Is that the company’s policy?
A. Not the company’s policy.
Q. Whose policy?
A. It’s a local law.
Q. Local law? What law?
A. City ordinance.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Mr. Smith, I understood you to say some
(R-986)
of the cars had signs saying "White" on one side and
"Colored" 2on the other, and some of the signs are signs
saying "White will load from the front" a n d ----
BY WITNESS: Those are stationary signs up to the right
of the windshield.
200
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
■ 986)
BY JUDGE HIVES: -And you said some do not have signs.
Those were the ones that were torn out.
BY WITNESS; That's right. Some do not have either kind.
BY JUDGE HIVES: Torn down by outsiders?
BY WITNESS: That's right.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Those that have been torn down — Are
those the ones that are to sit on one side or to sit
from the rear?
BY WITNESS: Those are sliding signs. Just on the roof
of the bus.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You don't know what was said on those?
BY WITNESS: Well, that's "White" on one side and
"Colored" on the other.
BY JUDGE MIZE: Do they rest on the back of the seat?
BY WITNESS: No, sir, on the ceiling. Have a railing
that runs up and down.
Have you ever had signs on the back of the seat?
Not to my knowledge.
As superintendent, is it one of your functions to give
instructions to the drivers?
That's right.
t instructions have you given to the drivers regarding
seating of passengers?
You mean seating of what passengers?
Negro and white passengers.
If a passenger sits out of place, he is not to move that
201
(R-987)
Q.
A,
Q.
A.
Q.
A,
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
bus.
What Is he to do?
He's to sit there.
And then what is he to do?
He sits right there until somebody moves out and gets in
the proper place.
Until a Negro sitting in a white section moves back?
That's right.
Or a white person sitting in the back moves forward?
That’s right. It works both ways.
What is he instructed to do if a Negro sitting in the
white section refuses to move back?
He just sits that bus right there. Leaves it there.
What is he instructed to do with the passengers?
To let them sit right there and catch the next bus.
Have any of your drivers had occasion to stop the bus in
the last six months, to your knowledge?
I understand there were two cases —
BY MR. CLARK: Object to what he understands.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, objection sustained.
Do you know when this happened?
■ead it in the papers.
BY MR. CLARK: Object to what he read in the papers.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Objection sustained on that.
202
(R-988)
Q. Do you know of your own knowledge whether ony of your
drivers have had occasion to stop the bus because some
body didn’t move, in the last couple of months?
A. These two occasions.
Q. What two occasions?
A. One on Capitol and Lamar and one on Parrish and Capitol.
Q. And you know this of your own knowledge?
A. No, I wasn’t there.
Q. Did the driver report it to you?
A. The driver reported it to me.
Q. All right. Let’s start with the first occasion. What
was the driver’s name?
A. Mr. Grantham.
Q. Where did he stop the bus?
BY MR. WATKINS: We are going to object to this for the
City of Jackson, It is hearsay. He is just repeating a
conversation, with no opportunity to cross examine,
BY JUDGE RIVES: If it is reported to him by his driver,
we think it admissible against the Jackson City Lines,
but that would be hearsay as to the others.
BY MR. CLARK: So the record will be clear, I understand
(R-989)
that the Attorney General has a continuing or running
objection to all conversations between other parties
defendant or decisions made by other parties defendant
that the Attorney General did not participate in,
BY JUDGE RIVES: The ruling is that it is not admissible
20J
(R-989)
against the Attorney General.
BY MR. CLARK: Didn't we also have a continuing ruling
to that effect?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, that is my understanding. This
evidence would not be admissible against anybody except
the Jackson City Lines.
Q. What was the first driver's name you called?
A. Grantham. G-r-a-n-t-h-e-m.
Q. What did Mr. Grantham tell you about his bus?
A. He just said that four colored passengers sat in the
front of the bus —
BY MR. YOUNG: On behalf of the Jackson City Lines, we
have tried to abstain from offering frivolous objections,
but I believe she is going beyond that now and asking him
to relate conversations that are wholly incompetent.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We think a report from a driver to the
superintendent would be competent so far as the Jackson
City Lines is concerned.
BY MR. YOUNG: I would agree insofar as him having re
ceived a report, but those reports are in writing; but
she is asking him to relate conversational topics.
(B-990)
BY JUDGE RIVES: (to witness) Are the reports you re
ceived in writing?
BY WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY JUDGE RIVES: They are written reports?
204
(R-990)
BY WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Then I think you would be confined to
what the writing showed.
Q. Do you have those reports in your office?
A. In our office.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: We'd like this witness to be excused
and we’ll go on with another witness while he brings
those.
BY JUDGE RIVES: (to witness;) Can you go get those?
BY WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY JUDGE RIVES: If you will, go get those original re
ports and bring them back.
(Witness temporarily excused)
J. WILL YOUNG, called as a witness and having been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MOTLEY:
Q. Me. Young, what is your full name?
A. J. Will Young.
Q. Are you attorney for Jackson City Lines?
A. I am.
(R-991) .
Q. How long have you been so employed?
A. A great many years.
Q. Were you attorney for the Jackson City Lines in 1957?
205
(R-991)
A. Yes,
Q. I'd like to show you a copy of a letter written to the
National City Lines,
BY MR, SHANDS: May we see that?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Let counsel see the letter,
(Hands to counsel opposite)
Q. I show you, Mr. Young, a letter dated August 19, 1957,
addressed to you and signed by K. E. Tcten, Vice Presi
dent, to which was attached a letter to National City
Lines, Chicago, Illinois, signed by Albert Powell, and
ask you if you have ever seen those letters.
BY MR, CLARK: While the witness examines the letter,
we'd like the record to show the Attorney General ob
jects to each and both of the letters on behalf of the
Attorney General on the ground of hearsay, the letters
in their own content, to the Attorney General,* and,
two, they both bear dates 1957. We think it is impossi
ble that these letters could throw any light on this
case today, and as to the plaintiffs in this lawsuit,
we think the introduction of the letters constitutes
self-serving declarations.
(R-992)
BY MR. WATKINS: We make the same objection as to the
City of Jackson and its officials.
BY MR. 0 sMARA: Greyhound Corporation and Continental
Southern make the same objection.
206
(R-992)
BY JUDGE RXVES: Those are not, In the Court's opinion,
admissible against anybody but the Jackson City Lines.
They would be admissible insofar as the Jackson City
Lines.
Q. Have you ever seen those letters, Mr. Young?
A. I wouldn't say definitely that I ever saw them. I pre
sume that I did, especially the one written to me. I
usually get my mail. I have no independent memory of
receiving them.
Q. IX) you have any recollection of having replied to Mr.
Powell, as indicated by the letter of August 19th?
A. I don't, but if he has a copy of the letter I can tell
you whether I wrote it or not.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Do you have any other counsel here re
presenting Jackson City Lines?
BY THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY JUDGE RIVES: I was just going to say you could object
to your own testimony if you want.
BY THE WITNESS: I don't think I want anybody to object
to any of my testimony.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: We'd like to offer these two letters
in evidence.
(R-993)
BY MR. J. L. YOUNG: We’d like to object on the part of
Jackson City Lines. I don't think they could be material
at all. They could be nothing more than self-serving
207
(R-993)
declarations.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Do you object on the ground they have
not been authenticated?
BY MR. J. L. YOUNG: I object on the grounds they are
immaterial and irrelevant and constitute self-serving
declarations.
BY MR. WATKINS: And have not been properly identified.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Are you representing Jackson City Lines?
BY MR. WATKINS: No, sir. I ’m doing that for the City
of Jackson.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You wouldn’t have any interest in it.
BY MR. WATKINS: I don't think they ought to clutter up
the record unless they are properly identified.
BY JUDGE RIVES: (To Mr. Young) You have not objected
on that ground?
BY MR. J. L. YOUNG: We would add that objection.
BY JUDGE RIVES: I don’t believe the witness has testi
fied he could say he received them.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: I thought he said he usually gets his
mail and he assumes he has received them. He didn’t
indicate he had not received them.
BY JUDGE RIVES: He said he had no recollection of them,
of whether he received them. I don’t believe he has
identified them yet.
(R-994)
A. I ’d like to say I am not trying to evade acknowledging
that I received the letter, I in all probability did,
208
(R-994)
considering it's what I call "a screwball letter"and
it didn't register with me.
BY JUDGE RIVES: He says in all probability he received
it, but to say whether it is material or relevant, we
haven't seen the letters.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: May I ask the witness to read them?
Would that help if I asked him to read them? They are
short letters.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You will already have them in the record
if he reads them into the record. Let us look at them.
(Same are handed to the Court)
BY JUDGE RIVES: Do you have a reply to this letter?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Ho, sir.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You do not have a response?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: That's right. Just those two letters
is all we have, and I asked if he had replied and he
said he didn't recall. I do not have a response.
BY JUDGE RIVES: If there is no reply, we think this
would be purely hearsay evidence and sustain the objec
tion.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: I think that is all from this witness.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Does anybody want to cross examine?
BY MR. CLARK: We'd like to reserve our right to cross
examine.
BY JUDGE RIVES: (to witness:) You may come down.
BY MR. O'MARA: May we all reserve the right to call — to
209
(R-995)
cross examine this witness?
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may.
(Witness excused)
CICERO CARR, JR., called as a witness and having been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MOTLEY:
Q. Would you state your full name?
A* Cicero W. Carr, Jr.
Q. Are you a defendant in this case?
A. I am.
Q. What is your occupation, Mr. Carr?
A. I'm in the restaurant business.
Q. Do you have a restaurant out at the Jackson Municipal
Airport?
A. I do.
Q. Where is your restaurant located?
A. It’s located in the east end of the terminal building.
Q. What does your restaurant consist of? A lunch counter or
tables or what?
A. A lunch counter, tables, separate dining rooms, and I
have a counter in the back room.
Q. In the back room?
A. In the room off the loading ramp.
Q. What is that room used for?
A. It is part storage room, and I feed some of the customers
210
(R-995)
there.
(R-996)
Q. What customers do you feed there?
A. Well, anybody that wants to eat there.
Q. Do you feed airline passengers there?
A, Some of them.
Q. How long have you had that counter there?
A, About three or four years — Walt. Excuse me. — Yes,
about four years.
Q. Is that counter visible to the people in the waiting
rooms?
A. No.
Q, How do your customers know the existence of that counter?
A. We carry them to it.
Q. You carry them to it? Do you lease the space in which you
have your restaurant from the Jackson Municipal Airport
Commission?
A. I do.
Q. How long have you been operating this restaurant there?
A. Five years and one month, I believe.
Q. Do you feed members of the general public in addition to
airline passengers?
A. I do.
Q. Do you serve Negro and white passengers in your restaurant?
A. I do.
Q. Do you serve Negro passengers in the room in which you
have the lunch counter and tables?
A. I don't.
211
(R-996)
q . Do you feed Negro passengers in the separate dining room?
A. I don't.
(j>-997)
q . Do you feed Negroes in this back counter you are talking
about?
A. I do .
q . When was the last time any Negroes ate in that back
counter?
A. Yesterday morning.
q . How many Negroes were served there?
A. Two, to my knowledge.
Q,. Were they airline passengers?
A. I assume they were.
q . Mr. Carr, in the last six months have you observed the
police taking any of your customers out of your res
taurant?
A. I haven't.
Q. in the last six months have you observed the police stop
ping any persons from entering your restaurant?
A. I haven’t.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: I think that is all for this witness.
EXAMINATION
BY MR. STOCKDALE:
Q,. Do you also serve white people at what you term the back
lunch counter?
A. I have served some white people at this counter.
212
(R-997)
EXAMINATION
BY MR* PHILLIPS i
q . Mr. Carr, what term of a lease do you have with the
Airport Authority, for how long?
(R-998)
A. I don't know. I'm renting month to month.
Q, You pay monthly rent for it?
A. Yes, sir,
Q. When you executed this lease, with whom did you negotiate
the lease? Captain Turner?
A. Captain Turner.
Q, Have you had any conversations or any relationship with
any official of the Airport Authority other than Captain
Turner?
A. Not that I recall. I do all my business with Captain
Turner.
Q. You do all your business with Captain Turner, and Captain
Turner signed the lease for the Airport Commission?
Is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever been instructed by Captain Turner acting on
behalf of the Airport Commission that you could or could
not serve any person in your restaurant?
A. He's never told me who I could serve and who I couldn't.
Q. so as far as the lease is concerned and any instructions
you have had from Captain Turner, isn’t it a fact you
are free to serve whomever you wish at your restaurant?
(R-993)
A. I am.
213
FURTHER EXAfCENATION
BY MRS. MOTLEY:
Q. "When did you serve these white persons In this back
counter?
A. Three or four years ago, to ray knowledge. I haven’t
( R“*999)served many back there, but I know of my attorney eating
back there three or four years ago.
Q. Your attorney?
A. I had a white chef that he wanted to sit back in there
and talk to the chef.
Q. Other than your attorney and the chef, have you served
any white people in that back counter?
A. I ’ve served a few.
Q,. When was that?
A. Most of them are friends of the chef. Back -- Oh, he
hasn't been with me for three years. It was before
three years ago.
BY ms. MOTLEY: That is all for this witness.
BY JUDGE RIVES; You may come down.
(Witness excused)
MEDGAR W. EVERS, called as a witness and having been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
214
(R-999)
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MOTLEY:
Q. Please state your full name.
A. Medgar Wiley Evers.
Q. Where do you live, Mr. Evers?
A. 2552 Guinea, Jackson, Mississippi.
Q. Are you a native of Mississippi?
A. That is correct.
(R-1000)
0. What is your present occupation?
A. Field Secretary for the NAACP.
Q. How long have you been so employed?
A. Since 1954.
Q. In your position as field secretary for the NAACP, do you
have occasion to travel by air?
A. Yes, I do. Very frequently.
Q. Do you use the airport at Jackson Municipal Airport?
A. Thatls right.
Q. How often would you say you have used the airport in the
last year?
A. In the last year I would estimate that I have used the
airport 15 to 20 times.
Q. And you have been field secretary since — ?
A. Since 1954.
Q. At any time since *54 have you had occasion to try to se
cure food in the Municipal Airport?
A. Yes, on one occasion in 1958 I# along with several friend^
(R-3L000)
went into the restaurant out there to secure some food
and the —
BY MR. CLARK: We object unless more specific than 1958.
We think that is too vague and general, and also on the
ground it is beyond the time that would be probative in
this lawsuit.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Objection overruled.
(R-1001)
Q. Continue.
A. In May of 1958, to be specific, I went out to the airport
I was seeing a couple of friends off, and we went in to
get some food. Of course, the waitress told us they
didn‘t serve colored people in there. We sat, of course
first at the counter, and she came and told us we would
have to leave.
BY MR. WATKINS: I want to object to this conversation
between him and some unidentified witness. It is hear
say as far as we are concerned.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Overrule the objection. Let the record
show the witness is a Negro.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Yes, thank you, Your Honor.
A. And, of course, we didn*t hesitate after she told us we
could not be served. We left. And, of course, we saw
our friends off. There were two — Rather, I saw my
friends off. There were two, and I saw them off, and of
216
(R-1001)
course I left,
Q. Have you had any occasion to go into that restaurant
since then?
A. Well, I haven*t gone in there since.
Q. Did you ever notice any signs in the airport?
A. Oh, yes. I see them every time I come in and go out, I
see them.
Q, Where are the signs located?
(R-1002)
A. Well, they have signs located on the men*s room and on
the women*s room, and you have "Colored Men," "White
Men"j on the water fountain, "colored" and "white," two
fountains. I believe those are the only signs that I
can recall at the present.
Q. Now, have you ever had occasion to travel on the Trail-
ways bus?
A. Yes, I have,
Q. When have you traveled on the Trailways bus?
A. Well, I traveled on the Trailways — The most recent time
I traveled on the Trailways bus was March 11, 1958,
en route from Meridian, Mississippi, to Jackson. It
was about 1:50 in the morning when I boarded the bus —
rather, I purchased my ticket in Meridian, coming to
Jackson.
Q. And you boarded the bus?
A. Yes, I boarded the bus, and, of course, I took the front
seat after boarding the bus, and — Should I proceed?
217
(R-1002)
Q.. What happened?
A. Well, when I boarded the bus and took the front seat di
rectly behind the driver, the driver —
BY MR. CLARK; If Your Honors please, I’d like the record
to be clear that we have a continuing objection to all of
this witness’ testimony insofar as it is clearly hearsay
evidence as it relates to the Attorney General.
BY JUDGE RXVES: Yes, we understand that.
(R-1007)
A. The driver, as I recall, his name was Mr. G. V. Shelton,
told me to move to the back. And I said, "Well, I ’m
comfortable here.” He said that, "Well, you’re supposed
to move to the back." I said, "Well, I purchased my
ticket and paid the same fare as the other people. Why
can’t I sit here?" He said, 11 Ace you going to move?"
I said, "Ho, I ’m not going to move." So he got off and
summoned the police, and they came a n d -----
BY MR. CAHNADA: We object to that about summoning the
police and move to have it striken from the record, and
let him testify to what he actually knows of his own
knowledge.
BY JUDGE RIVES: (to witness:) State the facts.
A. I did not hear him summon the police. I didsee him confer
with the police officers.
Q. Did he get off the bus?
A. He got off the bus.
218
(R-1003)
Q. And. you saw him conferring with the police officers?
A. Correct.
Q. Were they standing at the station?
A. One was at the station at the time, and of course, after
the ticket agent and the bus driver, along with this one
police officer, conferred, soon about two carloads of
policemen came, and of course — Well, two of the offi
cers came on the bus, a Detective Nichols and another
captain of the Meridian police force, and asked for my
(R-1004)
identification, so I showed them my American Legion
card and NAACP card, and of course then they asked me to
come off the bus.
BY MR. WALKENS: I want to object to this line of testi
mony, first, on the ground that is a conversation be
tween this witness and the Meridian Police Department,
which the City of Jackson submits respectfully is hear
say! second, this is an occurrence involving in no way
the plaintiffs to this suit. We consistently take the
position this is not a good bona fide class action and
the only proof that can be offered must pertain to the
three plaintiffs in this case. Predicated on both of
those theories, we object to this line of testimony as
to what occurred between this man and the police of
Meridian. Incidentally, Meridian is not being made a
party to this suit.
BY MR. CANNADA: Continental and Greyhound join in the
219
(R-1004)
objection, and as an additional ground, it is remote;
it happened in *58, and the previous testimony shows
the situation that occurred then has not occurred in a
number of years. And we join in the objection.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Admit the testimony: as to Continental
Trailways, but not as to the others.
BY MR. CLARK: Is the Attorney General included in your
ruling?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes.
(R-10Q5)
Q. Would you continue?
A. The police of Meridian took me off the bus, and we con
ferred in front of the bus for a few minutes and they
took me over to the police station, which is just across
from the Trailways Bus Terminal, and there they detained
me for about 20 minutes, and I indicated to them that I
had purchased my ticket to go on the bus, and they indi
cated to me that they were going to permit me to ride
the bus on to Jackson. Of course, after we had talked
there for some time, one of the officers indicated that
I knew what conditions were here in Mississippi and that
I should abide by the customs. I indicated to him that
I was born and reared 30 miles from Meridian and I was
well aware of customs and traditions. They then per
mitted me to go back to the bus, whereupon I sat on the
front seat, this time on the right side of the bus, and
the driver then slammed the door and proceeded toward
220
(R-10Q5)
Jackson. We got about three to four blocks away from
the terminal and a taxi came out from a side street and
hailed the bus driver, and the driver stopped the bus,
and this taxi driver — rather, the man who was driving
the taxi — got on the bus and he looked me in the face
and said, "If you can't get him out, I can." And he
drew back and struck me in the face. At this time I
threw my hands up to prevent him from hitting me any
more, and of course the driver then said to the man
who had boarded the bus for him to get off, that we
couldn't proceed and do it in this manner.
(R-1006)
So the man did get off, and after having gotten off the
bus we proceeded toward Jackson and got as far as
Chunky, Mississippi, which is about 10 or 15 miles,
I think, out of Meridian, and the bus pulled to a halt
and the driver then gave each person on the bus a slip
to fill out as to what happened, and of course I asked
if he would give me one, and he gave me one, and I
filled it out, and of course we proceeded to Jackson
without any further incidents.
Q. Did you make a report of this occurrence to anyone?
A. Yes, I made a report to — Well, I made a report to our
national office, and of course I reported it to the na
tional office and the national office in turn, I believe,
got in touch with I.C.C., and they in turn contacted me
here in Jackson.
221
(R-1006)
Q, Who contacted you?
A. A, Mr. Atherton, and the other name I can't pronounce.
It's — I can’t pronounce It. Schnelter, or something.
Q. Was he from Jackson?
A. Wo. Mr. Atherton was from Jackson. The other gentlemen
was from, as I recall, Kentucky or Tennessee.
Q. Were they representatives of the I.C.C.?
A. Right.
©,. Where did you meet these gentlemen?
A, They came to my office on Lynch Street in the Masonic
Temple, Room 7.
Q. What happened then when they came to your office?
(R-1007) , ^ , .A. They came to the office and of course we introduced our
selves and —
BY MR. WATKINS: We object to this conversation between
the witness and the two representatives of the I.C.C.
BY JUDGE RIVES: What is the relevancy of it?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: I wanted to get his evidence in the
record that he made a report of It and there is a written
statement which these I.C.C. representatives took and
which he has received back from I.C.C. of what happened
on that occasion.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Sustain the objection.
BY MR, CANNADA: In behalf of Continental, we move to
strike all his testimony with reference to any conversa
tion with I.C.C. representatives, being purely hearsay.
222
(R-1007)
BY JUDGE RIVES: He hasn*t stated any conversation he
had.
BY MR. CAMADA: Contact had with the I.C.C., and move
to exclude any conversation he had with any parties not
connected with this lawsuit.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We overrule the motion at this time.
Q. Mr, Evers, let me show you a letter dated September 19*
1961,
(Hands to counsel opposite)
Q. I show you this letter signed by an A. Henry Walter,
Director, Interstate Commerce Commission, addressed to
you, and ask if you can identify it.
A. Yes.
(R-1008)
Q. What is it?
A. It is a letter that I received today from the Interstate
Commerce Commission containing the statement that I made'
BY MR. CAMADA: This Is the same type of matter which
we understood you sustained the objection.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Do you object to it?
BY MR. CAMADA: Yes. sir.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Let us see the letter.
(Same is handed to the Court)
BY JUDGE RIVES: If you wish to offer this in evidence,
you may identify it and make your offer, but we will
sustain the objection.
223
(R-1008)
BY MRS# MOTLEY-: We*d like to have this marked arid
offered in evidence.
BY JUDGE RIVES: The objection is sustained.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Plaintiffs* Exhibit
#25. This exhibit is no’C copied here because upon order of
the Court all original exhibits are sent up with the mimeo
graphed record.)
BY MRS. MOTLEY: I think that is all from this witness.
BY MR. STOCKDALE: Your Honors., I deliberately waited to
make this motion to see if this witness would connect
this up. On behalf of Defendant Carr, we move to exclude
the testimony of this witness in regard to what happened
at the airport in 1958 as being too remote. There is no
connection in his testimony to the effect now that
that practice, if it ever was in effect, has ceased.
BY JUDGE RXVES: Was Mr. Carr the lessee at that time?
(R-1009)
BY MR. STOCKDALE: I believe he said he was. I believe
he said five years and one month.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We* 11 carry the ruling with the case.
BY MR. PHILLIPS: May the record show we move on behalf
of the Jackson Municipal Airport Authority to exclude the
testimony of this witness as it would apply to the
Authority because the Jackson Airport Authority was not
in existence in May of 1958.
BY JUDGE RIVES: As far as the Jackson Airport Authority
224
(R-1009)
is concerned, the objection is sustained.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. CANNADA:
Q. With reference to the incident that happened in Meredlan,
as I understand it, you took your seat on the front seat
and the bus driver simply asked you to move to the rear?
A. He asked me to move to the rear,
Q. And when you declined to do so, he left the bus?
A. That's correct.
Q. Were there any other passengers at that time to get on,
or were all the other passengers to get on loaded on
the bus?
A. I don't know. There were some on the bus. I don't know
whether there were others to get on it or not.
Q. You don't know whether all all the passengers were
aboard the bus at that time or not?
A. I couldn't tell. I wasn't noticing.
Q. And from then on, you had contact with the police but you
had no further contact with the driver?
(R-1010)
A. Yes, there was further contact, as I indicated,
Q. I mean yyou had no further contact with the driver until
he was on his way toward Jackson?
A, He said nothing further to me.
Q. In other words, you came back and took your seat on the
front and he proceeded to bring you on to Jackson? Is
that right?
225
(R-1010)
A. That is correct.
Q. And of course then, when this taxi driver pulled up, the
taxi driver in the car stopped the bus? Is that correct?
A. Thatfs right.
Q. And of course he opened the door and let the man in?
A. He opened the door.
Q* Is that correct?
A. That;s correct.
Q. And as I understand your testimony, this man accosted you
and the bus driver told him to get off and leave you
alone?
A. Hot until after he had hit me.
Q. Well, I presume it happened rather hurriedly?
A. Yes, and he attempted to strike me on several different
occasions, and I just blocked his blows.
Q. And the bus driver asked him to get cut and leave you
alone?
A. After this had occurred.
Q. I presume it happened in just a second or two?
A. Well, it took a little more than a second or two.
(R-1011)
Q. At any rate, he told him to get off and leave you alone?
A. He told him to "Get off the bus. We can't do it in this
form,"
Q,. And the man did get off?
A. He got off,
Q. And the bus driver proceeded to bring you to Jackson?
226
(R-1011)
A. Yes.
Q, And you sat on the front seat all the way?
A. That Is correct.
Q,. Have you ridden the bus since that time?
A. Not since that particular time.
Q. You havenlt ever tried again? Haven’t gotten on the bus
to see where you would be seated or whether you would be
asked to move again?
A, I haven’t gotten on it.
Q. So you don’t know what the practice has been since 1958?
A. From my personal experience, no.
Q. You don’t pretend to tell the Court what the practice has
been since 1958?
A, From what I observed, —
Q. From your personal knowledge?
A. From the fact I have gotten on the bus myself, no.
Q. From your own knowledge, you don’t know what the practice
has been since ’58.
A. Well, from my knowledge, yes, I know what the practice
has been, because I've seen people who have gotten on the
bus and who have been more or less ordered to go back,
and that’s my own personal knowledge.
(R-1012)
Q. When was this?
A. I have seen this happen any number of times.
Q. Where?
A. I have seen it happen right here at Jackson, right here at
227
(R-1012)
the Trailways bus company.
Q. Give me a date and time.
A. I don't have a date. I don't know the date.
BY MR. GANNADA: We move the testimony be striken from
the record.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You brought the testimony out yourself.
Q. Can you give me a time, a place or a party involved?
A. I can't give you that except to say it did happen at the
Trailways bus company.
Q. Can you give me the exact name of a person?
A. I can't give you the name of a person.
Q. Can you give me a date?
A. I can't give you a date.
Q. Can you give me the name of a driver?
A. I don’t have that information.
BY MR. CAMADA; No further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q. You have lived in Jackson how long?
A. I've been in Jackson since ‘54. January of ‘55, to be
specific.
(R-1013)
Q. Where did you live prior to that?
228
(R-1013)
A. Prior to that I lived at Mound Bayou.
Q. You lived in Mississippi all your life?
A. All ray life.
Q. You have been Field Secretary for the N.A.A.C.P. since
195^?
A. That’s right.
Q. That is the organization which is financing this litiga
tion, isn’t it?
A. No.
Q. What is the organization that is financing it?
A. Legal Defense and Educational Fund of the N.A.A.C.P.
Q. What is the connection between that and the N.A.A.C.P.?
A. There is no connection, to my knowledge. They are
separate corporations.
Q. And there is no connection whatsoever between the two of
them?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Did you take any part in the actual preparation, planning,
for this litigation?
A. Did I take any part in it?
Q. Yes.
A. No, I didn’t.
Q. Now, the incident you mentioned at the Jackson Airport,
did you report that to anyone?
A. No, I didn’t report it to anyone.
Q. And that is the only occasion when you had occasion to use
the eating facilities there at the airport?
229
(R-1014)
A. That isn’t the only occasion I have had that I could have
used it. As I indicated a short while ago, I use the
terminal frequently. I don’t like to be humiliated
by going out there and being asked to leave, so after
having been asked this one time to leave the cafe term!-
nal — the cafe restaurant, rather, I said, well, — _I
r just didn’t choose to go back there again to be humuli-
ated.
Q. I believe the answer to my question would be that that
was the only time you actually went into the restaurant,
that you are telling me about?
A. That’s the only time I’ve been in the restaurant.
Q. Did you give me the name of the person with whom you
talked in the restaurant?
A. No, I don’t know the person I talked to. I know It was a
waitress. I wouldn’t know her.
q. But you did not report that incident to anybody in
authority?
A. No, I didn’t. Not out there, no.
Q,. Anywhere? Did you report it into the City of Jackson or
anywhere else?
A. No, I haven't.
BY MR. WATKINS: I believe that is all.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Any further cross examination?
BY MR. CLARK: We have no further cross examination at
this time.
230
(R-1014)
(Witness excused)
(R-1015)
ALTON B. SMITH, previously excused temporarily, was recalled
as a witness and, having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
FURTHER EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MOTLEY:
Q. Mr. Smith, do you now have the report of the drivers who
reported that they had stopped their buses?
A, I only have one. I couldn't find the other one.
Q. Which one do you have?
A. This is the incident at Lamar and Capitol.
Q. What is the driver's name?
A. Grantham.
Q. May I see the report?
(Witness hands to counsel)
Q. In addition to these two reports, do you know of your
own knowledge of any attempts by Negroes to sit in the
front of the Jackson City Lines buses?
A. Not any others.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: We'd like to offer this report in evi
dence.
BY MR. CLARK: May we see it?
(Same is handed to counsel opposite)
BY JUDGE RIVES: Are you offering the report as to any
one except the Jackson City Lines?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Just as to Jackson City Lines. We'd
231
(R-1015)
like to offer Plaintiff1s Exhibit 26 In evidence, as
to Jackson City Lines.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit
#26. This exhibit is not copied here because upon order of
the Court all original exhibits are sent up with the mimeo
graphed record.)
(R-1016)
BY MRS. MOTLEY: I think that is all of this witness.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Any cross examination? (To witness:)
You may come down.
(Witness excused)
THOMAS A. TURNER, called as a witness and having been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MOTLEY:
Q. Please state your full name.
A. Thomas Alexander Turner.
Q. What is your present position?
A. Executive Director of the Jackson Municipal Airport
Authority.
Q. As the director of the Jackson Municipal Airport Autho
rity, have you entered into a lease with one of the
defendants in this case, Cicero Carr?
A. Not as executive director of the Airport Authority.
Q,. In what capacity?
A. The secretary of the Airport Commission in 1956.
Q. Do you have a copy of the lease with you?
252
(R-1016)
A. I do. (Hands to counsel) The basic lease and all amend
ments.
Q. What are your duties as director and secretary of the
Airport Commission?
A. The Airport Commission has been replaced by the Airport
Authority.
Q. I’m sorry.
(R-1017)
A. Executive Director of the Airport Authority. I represent
the Airport Authority in handling all routine airport
business. I act as airport manager; I act as secretary
of the Airport Authority; I act as consultant for the
construction of the new Jackson Municipal Airport.
q . Are there any signs over the restrooms in the airport
terminal buildings?
A. There are.
Q. What do those signs say?
A. There are four signs for the four restrooms. They say,
"WOMEN, WHITE," "WOMEN, COLORED," "MEN, WHITE,""MEN,
COLORED."
Q. Any signs over the drinking fountains?
A. There are.
Q. How many drinking fountains doyou have?
A. Two.
Q. What do the signs say?
A. They say "FOUNTAIN, COLORED," and "FOUNTAIN, WHITE."
Q. Who put those signs up there, if you know?
253
(R-1017)
A. What individual put those signs up there?
Q. Well, what authority? Did the Airport Authority put
those signs up there?
A. The Airport terminal building was remodeled in 1956
and *57. Those signs were put up when the Jackson
Airport Commission acted for the city at that time.
Q. And they are there at the present time? Is that right?
A. They are there at the present time.
Q. Do these signs accord with the policy of the present
Airport Authority?
(R-1018)
BY MR. CLARK: May we have a chance to examine the lease?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Do you intend to offer the lease in
evidence?
BY MS. MOTLEY: Yes, sir.
BY MR. WATKINS: While they are waiting, I want to get
an objection into the record at this point. I want to
object to this line of testimony from this witness on the
ground that none of the statutes attacked in this case
nor the city ordinance attacked in this case apply to
Jackson Airport and that if counsel is offering this
evidence in support of some type of alleged discrimi
nation beyond and in addition to any statute and ordi
nance, that clearly falls within the category of a
factual matter, not within the jurisdiction of this
three-judge court, and for that reason, in my opinion,
would be objectionable, and I want to go on record as
(R-1018)
objecting to it.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We carry the objection with the case.
(The last question was read, by the reporter.)
BY MR. CLARK: We object to that. I think this witness
is incompetent to egress a conclusion as to what that
policy is. If they have a written policy, I think the
writing would be the best evidence. I donft think he is
competent to establish as a conclusion what their policy
might be.
(R-1019)
BY JUDGE RIVES: The signs, according to Mr. Turner’s
testimony, have been there during the time he has been
the director of the Airport Commission, and under the
circumstances we think the evidence is competent. You
may cross examine further as to what the policy is.
BY MR. CLARK: I have no objection to the facts; just as
to the conclusion.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Under the circumstances, with the signs
being up there during the time he has been executive
director, it is enough to base a statement of opinion
of what is policy.
A. There is no written policy. Any answer I have to give on
that would be an assumption and an inference.
Q. Aside from written policy, do these signs accord with the
policy of the Airport Authority?
A. The Airport Authority --
235
(R-1019)
BY MR. CLARK: Did I understand your last answer to be
that anything you might say on policy would be an
assumption?
BY WITNESS: Would be by Inference. There is no written
policy, and any answer I could give on that would be
simply by inference.
BY MR. CLARK: I think that would be objectionable.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may cross examine him fully on that.
(R-1020)
A. No member of the Airport Authority has ever expressed to
me an opinion as to whether or not the signs should be
there or shouldn't be there.
Q. Have you brought to the attention of the members of the
Authority that these signs are up there?
A. Not specifically, no.
Q. You have never discussed the signs?
A. The fact that the signs were put up there were reported
during the remodeling of the building, yes.
Q. Reported by whom?
A. By me to the Airport Commission.
Q, Did you report it to the Airport Authority?
A. They have never come up for discussion with the Airport
Authority.
Q, Do you know of your own knowledge that Negroes have been
arrested for attempting to use the restroom which has
the sign "WHITE MEN"?
A. I have never seen one arrested, no.
236
(R-1020)
Q. Have you ever heard from a.ny of your employees there that
Negroes had been arrested?
BY MR. WATKINS: We object to what he may have heard
from his employees. I submit that Is hearsay, certainly
as far as the City of Jackson is concerned.
BY JUDGE RIVES; Sustain the objection.
HI MRS. MOTLEY; 1*11 restate the question.
Q. Have any of your employees at the terminal reported to you
(R-1021)
that Negroes,rale Negroes, attempted to use the white
men's room and were arrested?
A. The answer is no.
Q. Are there any police officers stationed at the airport,
to your knowledge?
A. There is one assigned.
Q. Is he assigned by the police department or do you employ
him, or what?
A. He is assigned by the police department.
Q. How long has the police department had a policeman sta
tioned out there?
A. Since 1956 or early '57.
BY JUDGE RIVES; What is the situation at this airport
with reference to the city limits?
BY THE WITNESS: It is within the city limits.
BY JUDGE RIVES: It is within the city limits of Jackson?
BY THE WITNESS: It is within the city limits and all
237
(R-1021)
instructions — The police department of the city does
all the policing for the airport. The ordinance which
set up the operation of the airport covers that very
clearly.
BY MRS. MOTLEY; We have no further questions of this
witness, Your Honor, and we’d like to offer the lease
in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibit
27. This exhibit is not copied here because upon order of
the Court all original exhibits are sent up with the mimeo
graphed record,)
BY JUDGE RIVES; Any objections to the lease?
(R-1022)
BY MR. CLARK; The Attorney General would like to point
out this lease is clearly out of date, according to the
terms of the lease. Unless Captain Turner’s testimony
is different, it is not admissible under the witness
Carr’s testimony, for the reason he testifies he is on
an entirely different basis, not reflected by any of
these leases.
BY JUDGE RIVES; Mr. Carr testified he was on a month
to month basis. I don’t know if that is a holding over
of that lease or not.
BY MR. CLARK; No, sir.
Q. Is this the lease which is in effect now?
A. No, this lease has expired, and due to the fact we are
238
(R-1022)
presently constructing a new airport, the Airport Autho
rity has asked Mr. Carr to go on a month to month basis
until the new airport terminal is built and a decision
made whether or not he could operate there,
Q. I see.
BY m s. MOTLEY: I’m sorry, Your Honor.
Q. Is there any writing on the month to month?
A. Yes, a letter from me to Mr. Carr.
Q. Do you have that?
A. I do not have that.
BY M S . MOTLEY: In that case we do not wish to offer
(R-1023)
this in evidence, Your Honor. I misunderstood his
testimony.
(Whereupon Plaintiffs’ Exhibit No. 26 was withdrawn.)
BY m s. MOTLEY: That is all for this witness.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Any cross examination of this witness?
EXAMINATION
BY m . PHILLIPS:
Q. Captain Turner, with respect to the letter which you have
written to Mu’. Carr notifying him that he will continue
on a month to month basis pending construction of the
new airport terminal, do you have a copy of that letter
in your files?
239
(R-1023)
A. I do. I believe the wording was to the effect that the
lease would be continued on a month to month basis pend
ing construction of the new airport and the new agree
ments.
Q. And can a copy be made available if the parties wish it?
A. It can be made available.
Q. Tell us what year the Jackson Municipal Airport Authority
was created?
A. Created in February of i960 under the 1958 Enabling Act.
Q. And the Jackson Municipal Airport Authority is composed
of how many members?
A. Five members.
Q. Appointed by the city council of the City of Jackson?
A. On a staggered basis, one each year.
(R-1024)
Q. You are employed, Captain Turner, by those five members
as executive director and secretary?
A. I am,
Q. And you receive your instructions from the Airport Autho
rity?
A. I do.
Q* I believe your testimony was that the signs which are now
at the airport were placed there in 1958 by the Airport
Commission or by the parties remodeling the airport
on behalf of the Commission?
A. I did.
Q,. Now the Airport Commission is no longer in existence? Is
240
(R-1024)
that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Isn't it a fact that the five members of the Airport
Commission who are now in office have at various times
been to the municipal airport since the Authority was
created?
A. They have.
Q. Some of them have airplanes that are stationed there? Is
that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you have never had a discussion with the Airport
Authority with reference to the signs you have testified
about?
A. I have not. There was no occasion for such a discussion.
Qu Now, Captain Turner, I will ask you whether or not you
have ever at any time acting on behalf of the Airport
Authority given any instructions to lie. Carr as to
whom he may or may not serve in the airport restaurant?
(R-1025)
A. No instructions. I have given none.
Q. Is there anything in the lease which has expired or in the
letter under which he is now operating that would res
trict him as to any person he might wish to serve?
A. Nothing specifically, no.
Q. Is there anything generally insofar as the members of the
colored race may or not be served?
A. No.
24l
(R-1025)
Q. The policeman who is stationed at the Jackson Airport
works for the city council? Is that right?
A. Works for the chief of police, for the city council, yes.
Q. And he does not take any instructions from you?
A. No occasions to give him any instructions.
BY MR. PHILLIPS: That is all we have.
EXAMINATION
BY MR. CLARK:
Q. Captain Turner, do you know the three plaintiffs in this
lawsuit?
A. Do I know them? No.
BY MR. CLARK: Would the three plaintiffs please stand?
(Plaintiffs stand.)
Q. Captain, do you recall having seen these three plaintiffs
in the airport at any time?
A. I don't recall having seen them, but there are so many
people go through, I could have seen them and wouldn't
recall it.
Q. If they have ever been there at all, you are not aware of
(R-1026)
the fact that these three individuals have been there,
are you?
A. No, I'm not aware of that.
Q. Do you know General Patterson, the Attorney General of
the State of Mississippi?
242
(R-1026)
A. I recognize General Patterson.
Q. Has he or anyone from his office or anyone purporting to
act in his behalf ever threatened you as a member of the
Airport Commission or threatened you individually with
regard to action purported to be taken under any kind
of state law or custom or usage or regulation with re
gard to the way you operate the Jackson Municipal Airport?
A. Nobody has ever threatened me, including General Patterson.
Q. Has anybody acting on General Patterson's behalf or has
the Attorney General ever given you any suggestions as
to how you should operate the Jackson Municipal Airport?
A. No.
BY MR, CLARK: We have nothing further of this witness
at this time, but I understand the Court is permitting
us to reserve cross examination as we go along.
BY MS. MOTLEY: This is what we would like to do, in
view of the testimony of this witness that the lease
we attempted to offer before is being continued on a
month to month basis: We would like to offer the lease
and would like to ask him to bring a copy of the letter
to that effect so we can offer that also with the lease.
(R-1027)
BY MR. CLARK: Your Honors, I understood that was not
the witness' testimony. I understood this was not a
holding over under any previous lease. This was a sepa
rate agreement between the Airport Authority and Mr.
Carr that they are going to let him use the premises on a
243
(R-1027)
month to month basis under the terms of the letter, and
the Captain said he has got the letter and would make
it available.
BY THE WITNESS:
of It.
Mr. Carr should also have the original
BY JUDGE RIVES: You will send the letter in?
BY THE WITNESS: I'd be glad to send the letter in.
BY JUDGE RIVES: The letter would speak for itself.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Do you want us to hold this?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, unless Captain Turner can tell us
directly what the terms of that lease are, whether it is
from month to month or an entirely separate contract.
BY THE WITNESS: I wrote the letter, but I cannot tell
you the exact wording of it at this particular time.
BY JUDGE RIVES: He will send the letter in, and you can
offer it at that time.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: All right.
BY JUDGE RIVES: And you can hold offering the lease
until that time.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Yes, sir, we'll do that.
(R-1028)
(Witness excused)
DORIS RUTH GRAYSON, called as a witness and having been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
244
(R-1028)
Q. State your full name.
A. Doris Ruth Grayson.
Q. Your address?
A. lll6-§ Dalton, Jackson, Mississippi.
Q. And your occupation?
A. I'm a junior at Jackson State College.
Q. You lived in Jackson, Mississippi, all your life?
A. No, I have lived — My home is in Raymond, Mississippi.
Q. And you have lived here approximately how many years?
A. About a year and a half.
Q. Just during the time you were in school?
A. In school, yes.
Q,. Do you consider yourself a Negro?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have occasion to ride the Jackson City Lines?
A. Yes.
Q. When was the last time you rode the Jackson City Lines?
A. April 17, 1961.
Q. Can you tell us what occurred when you rode the Jackson
City Lines? About what time was that?
A. About 2:00 P.M. Some of my classmates and I caught the
Number 2 West End bus on Capitol Street in front of the
Deposit Guaranty Bank —
Q. — Could you speak a little slower and a little louder?
(R-1029)
A. We caught the Number 2 West End in front of the Deposit
Guaranty Bank around 2:00 P.M.
245
(R-1029)
Q. Where were you heading?
A. To the zoo.
QU To the zoo?
A. Yes.
Q. And this was you and two companions?
A. Three. Two from Jackson State and one from Campbell
College.
Q. And you got on the bus at about 2:00 P.M.?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened then?
A. We got on the bus and took front seats and were arrested.
Q. You took front seats on the bus?
A. Yes.
BY MR. SHANDS: Tell her to talk louder and slower
so she can be heard.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Talk slower and distinctly.
A. We got on the bus around 2:00 P.M. We took front seats
on the bus.
Q. When you got on the bus, did you notice any signs indica
ting that as Negroes you should sit in either the front
or the rear of the bus?
A. then I got on the bus there was a vacant seat, so I took
it. I didn't look up; just walked on.
Q. The other people with you were Negroes?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they sit in the front with you?
2 46
(R-1029)
A. Yes,
(R-1Q50)
BY MR, CLARK: ¥e object to further questioning of this
witness along this line with regard to what she did or
what others did unless those others were members of the
plaintiffs* class, the plaintiffs in this lawsuit, for
the reason, twofold: It is inadmissible against the
Attorney General in this case; secondly, it is inadmis
sible in the case in chief because she is not a party
to this lawsuit, has not offered to join the lawsuit
although it is a permissive joinder device solely and
simply, and she has not identified any one of these
three plaintiffs as being involved in this incident; and
we think the testimony is incompetent, irrelevant and
immaterial,
BY MR, SHARDS: Could we be heard further on that, if
there be any question in the Court*s mind about the
propriety of that objection?
BY JUDGE RIVES: The Court will receive the testimony
against the Jackson City Lines but not against the
Attorney General.
BY MR. WATKINS: May we interpose the same objection for
the City of Jackson?
BY JUDGE RIVES: We carry it with the case as to the
City of Jackson,
BY MR. SHANDS: Could I address myself to the Court?
BI JUDGE RIVES: We ruled with your client.
247
(R-1030)
BY MR. SHARDS: Yes, sir, tout you sustained the objection
so far as the Attorney General is concerned and that is
(R-1031)
to all this testimony along this line from this witness?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes.
Q. After you and your companions, whom you indicated were
Negroes, sat In the front of the bus, what happened?
A. The bus driver told us we would have to move. He asked
us to move to the back "to the seats reserved for you."
We didn’t say anything. We had newspapers and we started
reading them. He asked us to move again. Nobody said
anything. He got off the bus and took his money bag
and walked down the street. An officer came back and
asked us to move to the back. Nobody said anything. We
continued reading. He got off and made a phone call
and about seven officers arrived at the scene. They
asked us to move, asked us to get off the bus if we
didn’t move to the back of the bus. He asked us our
names and we told him our names. He said, "You’re not
hard of hearing." He said, "I’m going toask you again.
Would you get off the bus, get on the sidewalk, or move
to the back seats reserved for you." Nobody said any
thing. He said, "You’re under arrest for breach of the
peace." We were taken off the bus, put in a patrol car
and taken to the city jail.
Q. When the bus driver left the bus, did you notice where he
went?
248
(R-1051)
a . no.
Q. Did he come back at the time the first policeman came on?
(R-1052)
BY” MR. J. ¥. YOUNG: As I said before, I do not want to
make frivolous objections, but I am going to object
very strenuously to his leading her through this,
because it is important to my client that she tell her
own story. I don't want to interrupt him.
BY JUDGE RXVES: You do not lead the witness.
Q. You indicated that the bus driver, after a siring you to
leave, to move to the rear, got off the bus. Is that
correct?
A. Yes, got off the bus.
Q. Now, slowly, you than said that a police officer came on
the bus?
A. Yes.
Q. Bad the bus driver returned at that time?
A. No.
Q. When did the bus driver return?
A. I really don't know because I was reading. He got on the
bus when the last officer arrived. I don't know when
they — when he got back on the bus because we were
reading.
Q. When the other police officers came later and were insis
ting you move to the rear or get off, had you observed
whether the bus driver had returned at that time?
(R-1052)
A. I don't know.
Q. During any of this period — Strike that.
249
BY MR. YOUNG: Again, I don’t want to be technical, but
his questions are all highly suggestive. He is doing
the best he can to testify himself, and she is a cotnpe-
(R-1Q33)
tent witness and ought to be able to tell what happened
down there without the constant repeating and suggestions
and putting words in her mouth.
A. I remember the bus driver came back to the bus because he
was on the bus and another bus pulled up beside him and
asked him, nIs that the bus that the Negroes are on?
Do you want me to help you get them off?” And he said,
"No, I'll call the police. 11
Q. What did the police do after you continued to read?
A. He didn't say anything until — he continued to ask us to
move. After we didn't say anything, he asked us our
names, and we told him. He said, "You are not hard of
hearing. You can hear. So I'm going to ask you for
the last time to get off the bus or move to the back."
And we didn't do it. Not a one of us looked up. He
said, "You're under arrest for disturbing the peace."
BY JUDGE RIVES: Mr. Young, if you think any of the
questions are leading, object to the questions,
BY MR. YOUNG: I think they are all leading and I have
objected twice.
250
(R-1052)
BY JUDGE RXVES: I don't think the last questions are
leading, but if you think any are leading you may object.
Q. When you were placed under arrest, what did the officers
tell you to do?
(R-1034)
A. He told us, "You're under arrest for breach of the peace."
Q. Slowly.
A, "You're under arrest for breach of the peace." And "A
patrol car is waiting at the back of the bus." We got
off the bus and in the car and he carried us to the jail.
Q. And carried you to the jail. And were charges placed
against you?
A. Yes.
Q. You remember what the charge was that was placed against
you?
BY MR, WATKINS: We object to that. The record would be
the best evidence of charges placed against the witness—
of any charge placed against the witness.
BY JUDGE RIVES: I think that will be sustained.
Q. Were you tried later on for something?
A, We were tried on April 19th for breach of the peace.
Q. Were you convicted at that time?
A. We were convicted and fined one hundred dollars and thirty
days in jail.
Q. What is the status of that case now?
A. The case is on appeal now.
251
(R-1054)
BY MR. BELL: No further questions.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q. Where do you live?
(R-1035)
A. lllbf Dalton.
Q, To get to your home you would ride the Number 6 bus?
A. That's right.
Q. Did you come down town that day on a bus?
A. No, sir.
Q. How did you get down town that day?
A. I walked down.
Q. You walked all the way from Dalton Street down town?
A. Yes, sir. I do it all the time.
Q. Where did you meet the other three girls you were arrested
with that day?
A. Down town. I met two of them down town. One of them
walked down with me. We walked down together.
Q,. Which one of the girls did you walk down with?
A. I didn't say there were three girls. There were two girls
and two boys.
Q. Which one of the people did you walk with?
A. Walter Jones.
Q. And you met Johnny Barber and George Washington down
town?
Yes.A.
252
(R-1Q35)
Q. Where were you going when you got on the bus?
A. To the zoo.
Q. Had you been to the zoo before?
A. Yes.
Q. Who Instructed you as to how to act when you got on that
bus?
BY I©. BELL: I think we had better object to that. We
have been trying to be as tolerant as we can on this,
(R-1Q56) _
but I don't think these questions have anything to do
with the issues in this case. Whether or not the persons
were permitted to ride without regard to their race on
the Jackson City Lines — •.
BY JUDGE RIVES: On cross examination, we think that
possibly that question might go to the credibility of
the witness. Overrule the objection.
Q. Who instructed you as to how to act when you got on that
bus?
A. No one.
Q. Who instructed you to meet down there that day and get on
that bus?
A. No one.
Q. What was your real purpose for getting on that bus?
A. I was going to the zoo.
Q. Going to the zoo?
A. Yes, sir.
253
(R-1056)
Q. And you had liad no instructions about how to act and to
sit quiet and read and say nothing?
A. No.
Q. That is just as true as anything else you have said?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, are you going to tell this Court that you got on
that bus for the sole purpose of riding and that you
didn't get on that bus for the sole purpose cf provoking
an incident in connection with the segregation statutes.
BY MR. BELL: ~ Not only going to tell, she has told the
(R-1037)
Court that is the reason she got on it. Badgering the
witness I don't think is helpful here.
BY MR. YOUNG: If you'd like to hear me, I'd love to be
heard.
BY JUDGE RIVES: All right. The point I had in mind,
you have already asked the purpose, and she testified
her purpose.
BY MR. YOUNG: As You said In your earlier ruling, I
could test her veracity. It Is my opinion that she got
on that bus to provoke an incident. We are a private
corporation and subject to suit just like Tamiami. We
are doing everything we can to avoid the decision, to
avoid your own decision in the Tamiami case. It is my
opinion and I think I have a right to dig into it just
as deeply as I'm capable of to show she got on the bus
to provoke an incident.
25^
(R-1Q37)
BY MR. BELL: Your Honor, the Tamiami case involved an
action for damages, which this certainly is not.
Secondly, even if she did, and the witness has not
indicated she did, but even if she did get on the bus to
find out whether she could or not ride in the front, and
was planning to bring a lawsuit, she couldn't. The
leading cases — Evers versus Dwyer in the United States
Supreme Court — indicates the motive and the reason a
person tested their constitutional rights is not material.
In fact, in the Evers versus Dwyer case, the Tennessee
case, they indicated the person had gotten on for that
very purpose, to make a test case.
(R-1038)
BY JUDGE RIVES; She has answered the question one time
on cross examination. We think it is possibly admis
sible on the credibility, on her credibility, and we
will permit you to go a reasonable limit in asking her
again. You may ask her the question again.
(The last question was read by the reporter.)
BY JUDGE RIVES: (to witness) Answer the question.
BY WITNESS: Which one? He asked two?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Answer both of them.
A. I got on to ride and I didn't get on to provoke a lawsuit.
Q. Did the driver ever say anything to you other than to tell
you that the law required you to sit in the rear?
A. No.
Q. That is all he ever said to you?
255
(R-1Q58)
A. He didn‘t say anything about a law. He asked me to move
to the back.
Q. Asked you to move to the back?
A. Yes.
Q. And you never answered?
A. No.
Q. Never looked up?
A. No.
Q. You sat there reading a book?
A. Yes.
Q. All four of you. Who instructed you not to answer the
driver?
A. Nobody.
fR-1039)
<4. You just happened to pick up on the method that is used by
all others in these incidents by accident? Is that
true?
A. I was reading a newspaper.
Q,. You wanted to read the newspaper?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you ever sat in the front seat of a bus before in
Jackson in the year and a half you had been here?
A. Yes, The only buses I ever ride in Jackson is Number 6,
In Number 6 I sit anywhere I want to sit.
Q. That is the bus that runs through what is generally con
sidered the Negro area, isn't it?
A. That is a city bus.
256
(R-1Q59)
Q. It is a city bus, but you didn't answer my question. Do
you want to answer my question or not?
A. It goes down town too. I have seen whites on it too.
Q. ‘That isn't what I asked you.
A, Yes, it goes through a colored area.
Q. You don't know where the driver went when he got off the
bus, do you?
A. No. He walked down the street and an officer came.
Q. But his name was Grantham?
A. What?
Q. Didn't you say his name was Grantham?
A. No, I didn't.
Q.. You don't know his name?
A. No.
Q,. That was on the corner of Capitol and Lamar Street?
(R-1040)
A. Yes.
Q. And on that day you and Walter Jones, George Washington
and Johnny Barber were arrested?
A. Yes.
Q. The policeman came there and got on the bus before the
driver ever came back?
A. Yes.
BY MR. YOUNG: No further questions.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Any other cross examination? Any
redirect?
BY MR. BELL: We have no further questions.
(R-1040)
257
(Witness excused)
THOMAS M. ARMSTRONG, called as a witness and having been
duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL?
Q. Would you give your full name?
A. % name is Thomas Madison Armstrong.
Q. Would you speak up a little bit more?
A. Yes, I will.
Q. Your address?
A. Route 1, Box 95, Silver Creek, Mississippi.
Q. Do you consider yourself a Negro?
A. Yes, I do. An American and a Negro.
Q. Have you lived in Mississippi all your life?
A. Yes.
(R-1C&1)
Q. What is your present occupation?
A. Student at Tougaloo Christian College at Tougaloo,
Mississippi.
Q. And have you had occasion to ride the Trailways bus?
A. I had the occasion to ride the Trailways bus on June 23,
1961.
Q. Was that the last time you rode it?
BY MR. CANNADA: I couldnft hear the last answer.
A. I had occasion to attempt to ride the bus June 23, 1961.
Q. Where were you at that time?
253
(R-1041)
A. The Trailways bus terminal.
Q. In what city?
A. Jackson, Mississippi.
BY- MR. CAUHADA: May we make an objection at this time?
We previously discussed we have submitted seme Inter
rogatories about incidents that involve the various bus
companies so we could make an investigation. If this
involves an incident with the Trail ways, I don't believe
this witness is listed.
BY MR. BELL: I believe he is, Counsel. I stand to be
corrected — Hie is not listed, but the purpose of his
testimony did not go toward the Trailways Bus Lines,
because, as he has already indicated and as his subse
quent testimony will further illustrate, he never got
on the bus.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Who is the testimony directed to?
BY MR. BELL: His testimony would be directed toward the
Attorney General. Our further reason, as my memory comes
back to me, is that the particular interrogatory asked
(R-1042)
for each person who has ridden a bus of this defendant
as a passenger and who has been subjected to a custom,
rule and policy of segregation, and again this witness
did not ride the bus, and therefore we did not feel it
was appropriate to put his name down among those listed
as having experienced an incident of this nature on a
bus.
259
(R-1042)
BY MR. CANKADA: You will also find the other Interroga
tory that deals with all the other facilities of our
terminal. The purpose was to ask you the very informa
tion that you are trying to bring out here so we would
be in a position to make an investigation and determine
what type of complaints you had against us. We have
denied that we had been guilty of anything by our ans
wer, and by means of discovery we sought to find out of
what we were accused; and I think we are entitled to
have that information in answer to our interrogatory.
BY MR. BELL; That was your question Number 6, where you
asked whether any persons had been arrested? Is that
correct?
BY MR. CANNADA: We tracked the language of your com
plaint in both instances, for the relief for which you
prayed, and asked you to give us the names of anybody
involved in any way in connection with the allegations
of which you accused us.
BY MR. BELL: In answer to that, asking for the names of
those persons who had been arrested while attempting to
(R-1043)
use the facilities, we answered; "Plaintiffs do not
know the names and addresses of all passengers who
failed to obey signs in the defendant's terminal in
Jackson, Mississippi, sought to use the waiting room
and facilities thereof on a non-segregated basis and who
have either been arrested and prosecuted by the defendant
260
(R-1043)
or permitted to be arrested and prosecuted by the defen
dant. Plaintiffs have reason to believe that such in
formation is eitherwithin the knowledge of the defendant
or can be obtained by the defendant from police records
which are available to the public. Plaintiffs study of
such records indicates that during the period from May
26, 1961 through July 17, 1961, approximately 4-9 persons
have been so arrested and prosecuted."
BY JUDGE RXVES: Just what does your interrogatory seek
to ask? Read the interrogatory.
BY MR. CAMADA: The purpose of our interrogatory is
obvious.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Read Interrogatory 6.
BY MR. CAJMADA: ‘'State the names and addresses of all
passengers who failed to obey any signs at the terminal
used by this defendant in Jackson, Mississippi and
sought to use the waiting room and facilities thereof
on a non-segregated basis and who have either been ar
rested or prosecuted by this defendant or permitted to
be arrested or prosecuted by this defendant. 11
BY JUDGE RXVES: Objection is overruled.
BY MR. 3HANDS: We would make an objection to the testi
mony of this witness because our conception, as this
suit is brought as a class action, they cannot prove
the plaintiffs’ lawsuit by anything done to somebody
else and plaintiffs——
BY JUDGE RIVES: You have a running objection on that
261
(R-1044)
ground as to all the testimony, and we are carrying that
with the case.
BY MR. SHARDS: All right, Sir. Then we have the fur
ther objection on the part of the Attorney General that
what is done, charged, transacted, took place, out of
the presence of the Attorney General is hearsay as to
him and should not be admissible against him in this
suit.
BY JUDGE RIVES: All right. We'll carry that with the
case.
(Mr. Bell continues:)
Q» Where were you intending to go at that time?
A. I was intending to go to Hew Orleans, Louisiana.
Q. Had you purchased the ticket to New Orleans?
A. Yes.
BY MR. SHANDS: To where?
BY WITNESS: New Orleans, Louisiana.
Q. Had you succeeded in purchasing a ticket at that time?
A. No, not at the bus station. I already had a ticket.
0,. Will you tell in your own words what happened that day?
A. Well, I arrived at the Trailways bus terminal at approxi
mately 2:15. There were perhaps 15 or 20 policemen
was on the outside and approximately four or five - I'm
not sure — on the inside, and I went in the bus terminal
which had the sign, I:WHITE INTRASTATE PASSENGERS"--
262
( R - 1 C W
Q. — You went in that door?
A. I went in that door. I was met by Captain Ray.
(R-1045)
Q. Is he of the Jackson police force?
A. Of the Jackson police force of Jackson, Mississippi.
BY MR. SHANDS: We renew our objection insofar as the
Attorney General is concerned here. It Is very similar.
I see no difference between what has happened here and
the other incidents in which the Court sustained the
objection as to the Attorney General.
BY MR. BELL: If counsel would give us a few more
minutes, we will be able to tie in.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Very well.
Q. Captain Ray of the Jackson police force did what?
A. He asked one of the other young fellows with me to move
out, and of course the young fellow disagreed with him,
a n d ----
BY fit. SHARDS: We object to the conversation that took
place, what the officer said to this man and what the
man said to him.
BY JUDGE RIVES: He promised to connect up the testimony.
Let him pursue it and see where we are going.
Q. Did Captain Ray address his order to the group of you that
were present at that time?
Ho. He said, "I advise you tomove out."A.
263
(R-1046)
Q. Was he talking to you at that time?
A. He made no specification whatsoever.
Q. He was talking in the general direction of the group?
Is that right?
BY MR. SHARDS: We object to leading the witness.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Objection sustained. Rephrase the
question.
Q. What did Captain Ray say?
A. He said, "I advise you to move out of the waiting room."
Q. What happened then?
A. I turned and started moving, but it seems as if I was
moving in the wrong direction.
Q. What do you mean moving in the wrong direction?
A. I was moving toward the counter in the bus terminal when
the policeman stepped in front of me, so I had to stop.
So he then asked us to move again. The young fellow-
said, "We will not." And he saidJ'You are under arrest."
Q. Were you placed under arrest at that time?
A. He said, "You are all under arrest."
Q. What happened then?
A. We were taken to the wagon outside the bus terminal, and
we were put in the wagon and drove us down to the jail,
in which we stayed in for approximately five minutes.
Q. Before you got to the jail while you were back at the
(R-1047)
station and just before you were placed under arrest,
264
(R-1047)
did you use any loud language toward the police officer?
EX' MR. SHAHDS: We object to that. The question is
leading, patently so.
BY MR. BELL: I 111 reword the question, Your Honor.
BY MR. SHAHDS: It calls for a conclusion and is leading.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You might ask if there was any disorder
and what was said.
Q. Prior to your arrest, was there any disorder of any type
among your group?
BY MR. SHAHDS: We object to that as a conclusion. Let
him state what happened.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Objection sustained. Ask him to state
the facts.
Q. Will you tell us what happened in the terminal just before
your arrest?
A. Well, there was no disorder between our group, and we
were standing there and we said nothing except —
BY MR. SHAHDS: We object to that. That’s a conclusion,
Your Honor, "no disorder." Let him state what happened.
BY JUDGE RIVES: I don’t know how he could say it any
other way.
BY MR. SHAHDS: I think it could be.
(R-1048)
BY JUDGE RIVES: Overrule that objection.
265
(r -1048)
A. Just before we were arrested, none of us said anything
except the young fellow talking to the police captain.
All the passengers in the bus terminal seemed to be
very happy because everyone was smiling except the
policemens there. Then even one young fellow politely
asked me how was I doing this morning.
BY- MR, SHARDS: We object to that conversation, a young
fellow asking him something.
BY MR. BELL: We are not trying to be tricky or any
thing like. We would just like to get this man’s opi
nion and what he saw and what he observed as to what the
situation was in the bus terminal at that time.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Just ask him the facts and let us draw
the conclusions. (To witness:) Was there any fighting
going on?
BY THE WITNESS:
BY JUDGE RIVES:
BY THE WITNESS:
BY JUDGE RIVES:
BY THE WITNESS:
BY JUDGE RIVES:
Everything was quite peacefully.
Was there any loud talking?
None whatsoever.
Any cursing?
No, no.
All right.
Q. Now, returning to the jail, what happened there?
A. Well, when I arrived at the jail, we went of course in
separately, so when I came around for my time to be
(R-1049)
questioned I was asked many questions, as of who sent
266
(R-1049)
me down there? Do I always go around making trouble?
and, you know, questions like that. I —
Q. You were questioned by a police officer? Were you ques
tioned by a police officer?
A. I was questioned for a little while in the hall by the
Captain Ray.
BY MR* SHARDS: We renew our objection. He said fifteen
minutes ago he was going to connect it up. I don11 want
the Court to lose sight of counsel's solemn statement.
BY MR. BELL: Evidently there is a state statute under
which the man was being arrested, and the state statute
was being enforced by the city police. In my way of
thinking, that involves both the city police and the
persons responsible for the state statute, which in this
case is the Attorney General.
BY MR. SHARDS: He has made no showing of any shape,
form or fashion of what he was arrested under or any
thing else, and the Court went along with him on coun
sel’s solemn statement that he was going to connect it
up, and I say he hasn’t done it and I ask respectfully of
the Court that it be excluded as to the Attorney General
totally.
BY MR. BELL: The reason we haven’t gotten to it is
because a great deal of time has been taken during the
(R-1050)
earlier objections, but the next question is going to
concern whether or not he was tried and if he knows what
267
(R-1050)
he was tried for, and all of that. And then we have
documentary evidence of the statement which we hope to
introduce.
BY JUDGE CLAYTON: Are you contending the Attorney Gene
ral personally participated?
BY MR. BELL: I don’t think any of these can be shown
the Attorney General personally — that any of these
witnesses can show the Attorney General personally
did any of these things. I was concerned about the
objections running all day long. We do feel that the
Attorney General is responsible for all the laws in the
State of Mississippi, and I believe he has admitted as
much in the answer. We also hope to show the local
police are arresting persons in pursuance to the state
law.
BY MR. SHANDS: I think that statement has taken the
wraps off the allegations of their complaint. They have
made a solemn, definite, firm, unequivocal charge that
the Attorney General of Mississippi has threatened to
enforce those statutes and have enforced them. Now, that
is in the complaint. He has just now said he is joking
about that. And we asked - made the objection at the
beginning - to show the connection; he said he would do
it, and he has just, in my opinion, confessed that he
cannot. And I ask, please, that evidence be striken.
BY JUDGE RIVES: As to the Attorney General, we think
268
(R-1Q51)
the objection should be sustained.
BY MR. BELL: The things they are speaking of as far
as the allegations in the complaint, the idea of
threatening to enforce are terms apart. They don't in
dicate the Attorney General has gone out into the s.
streets and done this.
BY JUDGE RIVES: I understand, but the Attorney General
is not responsible for every criminal case in the State
ofMississippl, He is the chief law enforcement officer
possibly, but he is not responsible for every criminal
case brought in the State of Mississippi. Your evidence
is admissible in part, but not against the Attorney
General.
BY MR. BELL: It is impossible for us to put on one
witness and as we have probably shown, many of the wit
nesses, the testimony they have given, goes in various
respects to one and usually more of the defendants in
this case, and it is impossible to divide these witnesses
up so that the testimony goes only as to one.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We are not excluding the testimony
entirely, but restricting it that it is not admissible
against the Attorney General.
(Mr. Bell continues:)
Q. Were you later tried for some offence?
A. I was tried on June 26 on a charge of breach of the peace.
BY MR. WATKINS: We object to that. The record of his
269
(R-1052)
trial and charge would be the best evidence.
BY MR. BELL: We hope we will put them in. We were
going to put them all in at one time.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Overrule the objection.
BY MR. O'MARA: For Greyhound and Continental Southern,
we have not been making objections to each question
propounded to this witness. We had in mind to save
time waiting until he finished direct and make whatever
motion we desired to exclude, but we don't want to put
ourselves in the position of having waived our right to
object as he goes along.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Well, I think If you are going to move
to exclude, you ought to object then.
BY MR. O ’MARA: In that case, the Greyhound Bus Company
and Continental Southern object to questions propounded
to the witness and the answers given and move to exclude
as to each because they have not connected these two
bus companies to these actions nor are they in any way
related to these two defendants.
BY JUDGE RIVES: It Is not directed, as I understand,
to Greyhound,
BY MR. O'MARA: We make it also as to Continental South
ern because there is no evidence of any arrests made
by Continental Southern or any requests made by any
representatives of Continental Southern to make any
arrests.
BY MR. CAMADA: He has testified he hasn't contacted
270
(R-1Q52)
a single sole or representative and has not been con-
(R-1Q55)tacted or molested In any way, and unless he ties It in—
BY JUDGE RIVES: The evidence is not admissible against
Greyhound, and the objection is sustained against
Greyhoundj and the objection as to Continental Southern
is carried with the case.
BY MR. CiUMADA: On behalf of Greyhound, Your Honor,
may we have a running objection to all of this so we
won't have to continually object.
BY THE COURT; Yes.
BY MR. CERNE: I haven't been making objections to things
that haven't concerned the Illinois Central. If it were
to be considered against me, possibly I would. I hope
I won't be prejudiced by virtue of not making objections.
BY JUDGE RIVES: No.
BY MR. BELL: I have only a few more questions.
Q. You indicated that you were tried for breach of the peace.
A. Yes.
Q. What was the result of that trial?
A. Two hundred dollars and four months in jail.
Q* You were convicted?
A. Right. Yes, I was,
Q. What is the status of the case?
BY MR. WATKINS: I object to that. I think the best
evidence of what he was tried for would be the records.
271
(R-1Q53)
BY JUDGE RIVES: The majority thinks the record ought
(R-1054)
to be brought and show he was convicted of breach of
peace.
BY MR. BELL: All right. At this time we should like
to introduce in accordance with Federal Rules of Civil
Procedure, Rule 45, I believe, a certified copy of the
affidavit of arrest and the judgment record, which was
certified by James L. Spencer who indicates he is the
custodian of these records and was the judge in the
case.
BY MR. WATKINS: We object to the affidavit and judgment
being offered by counsel on the ground it reflects on
its face that this man was not charged or was not con
victed of any of the segregation statutes or ordinances,
the constitutionality of which are attacked in this case.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Reserve ruling on that question and
carry the objection with the case.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Plaintiffs1 Exhibit
#28. This exhibit is not copied here because upon order of
the Court all original exhibits are sent up with the mimeo
graphed record.)
BY MR. BELL: I made one mistake. I should have said
Rule 44.
(continuing:)
Q- Mr. Armstrong, while you were in the bus terminal and
272
(R-1054)
prior to your arrest you testified that the police
officers were asking you to leave. During this time did
any person identifying themselves and connected with the
(R-105^a)
bus line, to your knowledge, protest your removal by
the police officers?
A. No, they did not.
BY MR. O'MARA: We object to that as being immaterial.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Overrule that objection.
BY MR. BELL: No further questions,
BY JUDGE RIVES: Cross examine. Gentlemen, it is under
stood that by cross examining you are not waiving your
objections. Is there any cross examination to this
witness?
BY MR. SHANDS: As I understand it, you have ruled out
all his evidence against the Attorney General of
Mississippi?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, sir.
BY MR. O ’MARA: We have no questions.
BY MR. WATKINS: I have one question, If I may.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q. Did you appeal your case to the county court?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Has it been acted on on appeal?
A. Yes, sir.
275
(R-105^a)
0,. In the county court?
A. That’s right.
BY MR. WATKINS: If it please the Court, we then move to
(R-1Q55)
stroke — again move to strike the exhibit just offered
purporting to be a certified copy of the disposition of
this man’s case in court on the ground it is not com
plete. We don't know still what has happened to his
case and the records only can reflect what has happened
to it.
BY MR. BELL: On that point we would probably never be
able to put in the case because it appears these cases
are going to be in the court for quite some time.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We’ll carry that objection with the
case.
BY MR. BELL: We have no further questions for this
witness. Again, because he Is a student, we would re
quest he be allowed to return to his classes, and if
there is further need for him by any defendants, we
could recall him.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may be excused.
(Witness excused)
BY JUDGE RIVES: Court stands recessed until tomorrow
morning at nine o’clock.
(Whereupon the Court was recessed until the following morning.)
27^
(R-1056)
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 1961, at 9:00 A.M.:
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Before we call the next witness, Your
Honors may recall that yesterday we offered in evidence
the lease of Mr. Carr, the airport restaurant facility,
and then withdrew it. I have now been presented with a
copy of the letter extending this lease on a month to
month basis by the attorney for the Airport Authority,
and he has no objection, and we would like now to offer
the lease and the letter extending it on a month to
month basis.
BY JUDGE RIVES; If no objection, that may be done.
BY MR. SHMDS: ¥e have an objection from the standpoint
of the Attorney General of the State of Mississippi,
that it is not admissible against him; neither the lease
nor the letter is admissible against the Attorney General
of the State of Mississippi, and we ask it be excluded as
to him.
BY JUDGE RIVES; How are you offering it? As against
all persons?
BY MRS. MOTLEY; I think it is necessary to offer it as
against the Airport Authority and the City, that are
involved, in this situation. I think it would be against
the City and the Airport Authority.
BY JUDGE RIVES; You are not offering it against the
Attorney General?
BY MRS. MOTLEY; And the lessee, of course.
BY JUDGE RIVES; The Attorney General, as I understand
275
(R-1057)
it, has no supervision over city prosecutions even of
state offenses. It is ray understanding of the Mississip
pi statute. And if that be true, you would have to go
further in connecting the Attorney General.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: That is right. I would say so.
BY JUDGE RXVES: And none has been shown up to now, and
you would have to go further. The City, I presume,
objects to this?
BY MR. WATKINS: The City of Jackson and its officials,
as distinguished from the Airport, objects to this for
two reasons: It's an entire separate entity involved,*
and, second, no statute the constitutionality of which
is attacked is applicable to the Jackson Airport.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Sustain the objection as to the
Attorney General, but carry the ruling with the case as
to the City.
BY MR. O'MARA: Insofar as Greyhound and Continental
Southern is concerned, we likewise object to the intro
duction of it.
BY JUDGE RIVES: It has not been offered as against
Greyhound and Continental Southern. I sustain the ob
jection. There lias been no joint action shown so far.
BY MR. O ’MARA: That was ray understanding. May I ask
this question? Yesterday afternoon I made an objection
on behalf of Continental Southern and Greyhound Corpora
tion with regard to one witness that was testifying con
cerning certain occurrences involving Jackson City Lines.
276
(R-1057)
I understood Your Honors to say — and I'd like to ask
(R-1058)
this question in order that I might be clear on it. I
might possibly have misunderstood the Court. I under
stood Your Honor to say in an instance like that unless
these two bus companies objected to such testimony, it
would be received as against these two bus companies.
BY JUDGE RIVES: The testimony that had no probative
value against your company would not be, but what I was
trying to convey to you, if you considered the testimony
objectionable you shouldn’t wait and move to exclude
it 1 you should object to it before admitted. The testi
mony that is offered against one company and which has
no probative value against another company, it seems to
us to be taking up time objecting. The point I was try
ing to get over was that we did not want you to reserve
your right to object and wait for a motion to exclude,
but to object when the proper time comes.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit
29. This exhibit is not copied here because upon order of
the Court all original exhibits are sent up with the mimeo
graphed record.)
JOHNWI FRAZIER, called as a witness and having been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
277
(R-1058)
DIRECT EXAMINATION
B7 MR. BELL:
Q, State your full name and address.
A. Johnny Frazier, 445 South Vance Street, Greenville, Mis
sissippi, presently employed at the J. P. Campbell Col
lege as a student.
(R-1059)
Q. Is this your first year at Campbell College?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Mr. Frazier, have you ever had occasion to ride either the
Greyhound or Trailways buses?
A. Yes, I have. August 26th I had the occasion to ride from
Atlanta, Georgia, to Greenville, Mississippi, where I
was constantly harassed.
BY MR. WATKINS: We object to that.
BY JUDGE RIVES: (To witness:) Don't volunteer. Just
answer the questions.
Q. What was the date you rode the Greyhound and Trailways?
A. August 26, 27.
Q.. Which year?
A. I960.
Q* By the way, you consider yourself a Negro?
A. Yes, I do.
Which bus line did you ride first?
A. Greyhound.
On what day did you board the Greyhound bus?
278
(R-1059)
A. August 26, i960.
Q. Approximately what time?
A. Approximately 11:45.
Q. Where?
A. Atlanta, Georgia,
Q. Was that 11:45 in the morning or in the evening?
(R-1060)
A. Morning.
Q. Will you tell in your own words your experience on the
Greyhound bus? — Excuse me just a second. You boarded
the bus in Atlanta and your destination was what?
A. Greenville, Mississippi.
Q. Will you tell in your own words your experience on the
Greyhound bus?
BY MR. WATKINS: The City of Jackson and its officials
object to this. It has no connection with the City and
its officials.
BY JUDGE RIVES: It won't be necessary to object to
each testimony offered. You may do it if you like,
but it is understood this testimony is offered where it
would have some probative value.
BY MR. WATKINS: I would object.
BY MR. SHANDS: Our only concern is whether or not
someone else may think we should have made objection,
but if we have the record crystal clear that the Attorney
General has a running objection to this without renewing,
then—
279
(R-1060)
BY JUDGE RIVES: May I say this then: The testimony
that is offered that is relevant only to one party or
not relevant to the party objecting, it may be under
stood you object without objecting and you may have a
running objection, all parties, all the way along, so
that you won’t have to constantly object.
BY MR. SHAKES: Thank you. He’ll travel on that basis.
(R-1061)
Q. Once again, Mr. Frazier, tell in your own words your
experience on the Greyhound bus which you boarded at
Atlanta en route to Greenville.
A. Yes. In Atlanta, Georgia, I boarded the Greyhound bus,
and I sat the second seat from the front, and the bus
driver said, "You will have to move to the back." —
BY MR. O ’MARA: We object to anything that occurred out
side the state of Mississippi.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We’ll carry that along with the case.
BY MR. SHARDS: The Attorney General joins in that ob
jection.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We carry it along with the case.
BY MR. O ’MARA: May I have the understanding I have a
running objection with reference to any occurrences
outside the State of Mississippi?
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may, and the ruling will be carried
along with the case.
Will you continue?
280
(R-1061)
A. In or out of Mississippi?
Q. You were saying that you had boarded the bus in Atlanta
and had taken a seat. Would you continue?
A. Yes. The bus driver, repeating, stated, "You will have to
move to the back of this bus," and I said, "I beg your
pardon, Sir?" and he said, "You will have to move to the
back of the bus," of which statement I Ignored and con
tinued my reading. Upon arriving in Montgomery, Alabama,
(R-1062)
I was re-told I could not sit to the front seat of the
bus by the bus driver.
Q, Was that another bus driver?
A. Yes, it was another bus driver. He indicated he could not
guarantee my safety also if I sat at the second seat,
and of course I continued to sit at the second seat,
Upon my arrival in Columbus, Mississippi, where I changed
buses and drivers to a Trail ways bus and I changed bus
drivers also, the bus driver indicated, "Nigger, you're
not going to sit up in the front seat of this bus." —
BY MR. O'MARA: We object to what the driver indicated.
Let him tell what the facts are, what actually occurred,
not what he indicated. If he said that, state that he
said it.
Q- What did the bus driver say to you?
A. The bus driver said, "Nigger, you're not going to sit to
the front seat of this bus."
28l
(R-1062)
Q. What was your response?
A. My response was, "I beg your pardon, Sir." He repeated,
and of course I ignored his statement also. That same
bus —
Q. Just a second. A little more slowly. Did anything else
happen in Columbus, Mississippi, when you were changing
buses?
A. Nothing else happened, but upon leaving Columbus, Missis
sippi, between Columbus and Winona, Mississippi, the
bus driver had the occasion to get off the bus several
times.
(R-IO65)
Q. Was this the same bus driver who instructed you to move
to the rear?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. In Columbus?
BY MR. WATKINS: Object to leading.
BY JUDGE RIVES: I don't think that is leading. Overrule.
Q. What was your answer?
A. It was the same bus driver,
Q- Continue with your story. You said you were proceeding
from Columbus to Winona. Tell us what happened.
A. Proceeding from Columbus, Mississippi, to Winona, Missis
sippi, the bus driver had the occasion to get off the
bus several times.
he get off the bus at stops or just along the high-
282
(R-1063)
way? Where did he get off?
A, He got off the bus at stops and one time he got off the
bus that was not on a stop and which he went into a
cafe, and there was no sign indicating that it was a
Greyhound or Trailways stop. Upon arrival in Winona,
Mississippi, I noticed there were two white men standing
in front of the bus, and as the bus pulled in the driver
called a 15 minute rest stop, I had been riding all
night and as a result I got off the bus and went into
the colored side of the restroom to brush my teeth, and
after I brushed my teeth and began to leave the restroom
I was approached by two white men who I later learned
were the sheriff and his deputy,
(R-1064)
Q. These were the two men standing outside when you drove in?
A, Yes,
Q* And you later learned who they were?
A. Yes. Sheriff Rowain Patridge and his deputy Shed Gastel.
Q* What happened when you came out of the colored side of
the Winona terminal?
A. I was approached by two white men who stated, "Nigger, we
want to see you,"—
BY MR, 0 ‘MARA: We object to that,— Any conversation
between this witness and two officers in Winona, Missis-
sippl.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We carry the ruling with the case.
283
(r -1064}
Q. You indicated that these two men were who?
A. The sheriff and his deputy. Sheriff Rowain Patridge and
Shed Castle, as deputy.
Q. What did they say?
A. "Nigger, we want to see you." I said, "Sir, I beg your
pardon?" He said, "We want to see you." I said,
"Certainly."
BY MR. SHANDSs We object to that. It is purely hearsay.
This is nobody who is a party to this lawsuit; it’s in
another municipality; has no connection with any bus
company; he didn* t know who they were and —
BY JUDGE RIVES: We carry the ruling with the case.
(R-1065)
Q. Continue, please.
A. After I begged their pardon, they did not say anything
else, and the deputy hit me ever the head with a black
jack, and of course I was continuously beaten until I
ran outside to escape their blows,
Q* Did they say anything to you during the time the blows
were being administered?
A. Yes, they said, "You had no business sitting up to the
front of that bus," and "You know you are a Mississippi
nigger and that does not work here."
Q* Was the bus driver present during this beating?
A. Yes, he was. In fact, he was standing right in front of
we, and when I ran outside to escape their blows, he,
the sheriff and his deputy blocked me so as I would not
284
(R-1065)
get any further.
Q, Continue with your story.
A. And of course out of the white side came approximately
five — between five to ten white people who also sur
rounded me, and all of which approached me to beat me,
and the bus driver was standing ----
BY MR. CLARK: — We object, Your Honor. - A man
approached him to beat him. —
BY JUDGE RIVES: I don’t see where the Attorney General
is interested in it, but we carry the ruling with the
case.
BY MR. CLARK: Well, of course, if it is not being
offered against the Attorney General, then we have no
objection.
(R-1066)
BY MR. O ’MARA: May I have the understanding on behalf
of Greyhound and Continental that we have a running ob
jection to all of this testimony?
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may.
Q. Can you pick up your story?
A. Yes, I can. After which I was approached by the white
men who came out of the other side, and the bus driver,
including the sheriff and his deputy. The last thing
I — The next thing I remember, rather — I was beaten
to a state of semi-consciousness, and the next thing I
remember, I was in a car and being carried to the police
285
(R-1066)
station, and when I came to complete consciousness I
was aware of the fact I was being cursed and I was in the
back seat of a car, and I recognized the two men that I
had seen before of which were Sheriff Rowain Patridge
and his deputy Shed Castle. Upon arrival to the jail
they said that I would never sit up to the front seat
of another bus, and later on they sent the doctor in,
which gave me an ice bag and some colored pills and told
them not to give me anything heavy, and I was put in
jail. I also had an excessive nose bleed, of which they
sent the doctor back in. And excessive headaches. They
send the doctor back in, and gave me some more tablets
and told them to give me some juice to drink. That was
Saturday. That Sunday morning I had several visitors.
After reading the Commercial Appeal, I had several
(R-IO67)
visitors, all of which were white and all of which made
it their business to come in and curse me, and one man
went into hysterics and grabbed the cell and went to
saying what he would do, and others spat at me.
Q* During this period were you permitted to call home and
get in touch with legal counsel?
A. Yes, I was.
At what point?
A. Saturday evening between the hours of six-thirty and seven
o 'c lo c k .
0* Uhat happened at that time?
286
(R-1067)
A. I was carried, taken out of the jail and carried to the
courthouse and told I was charged with disturbing the
peace and resisting arrest of officers and my bond was
two thousand dollars. I was then asked if I could bond
myself out or if I preferred to use the phone. I indi
cated that I preferred to use the phone, I then called
home. My telephone at home was busy. I transferred the
call to here in Jackson to my legal counsel, and he was
not in, and I got a chance to talk to another lady here
in Jackson who informed legal counsel. And of course
before I could give her the complete story, the tele
phone was snatched from me by another policeman that was
in the same room, and I was taken from the telephone
room to the other room where I went In at first, I was
kicked down on the floor by the sheriff and helped up
by the ether policeman who had snatched the phone from
me.
(R-1068)
BY MR. WATKINS: To prevent repeating objections, I want
to object to this line of testimony. This man has gone
into great detail in complaints made about his treat
ment in Montgomery County, Winona, Mississippi. If it
had been desired by these plaintiffs or their counsel
to make Winona or Montgomery County a party to this pro
ceeding and put on this testimony, that would have been
reasonable. Not having done so, we are not in position
to counteract the testimony and don't think it has any
287
(R-1068)
place in the record.
BY JUDGE RIVES: It has no reference to the City of
Jackson.
BY MR, WATKINS: I knot:, Your Honor, but this type of
testimony colors the record in its entirety.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Without ruling on the testimony, we are
carrying the ruling with the case.
BY I®. SHANDS: If the Court would forgive me, may I —
BY JUDGE RIVES: — No, sir, we don’t care to hear you
any further on this thing.
Q. Were you tried on these charges for which you were arres
ted?
A. Yes, I was. The following Monday before I was carried to
court I had another excessive nose bleed and of course
I was carried back to jail and the doctor came back nin
and he stopped my nose and put something up my nose and
stopped it from bleeding, but at any rate I was late
for court, and when I arrived in court I was charged
(R-IO69)
with disturbance of the peace and resistance of arrest
of the officers.
BY MR. WATKINS: We object to what he was charged with.
That is a matter of record and should be produced in
the form of a record.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Sustain the objection on the ground
that is not the best evidence.
288
(R-1069)
Q, What was the result of your trial?
A. The result of my trial was —
BY MR. WATKINS: We object to that.
EY JUDGE RIVES: Sustain the objection to that.
Q. During the course of your trial —
BY MR. WATKINS: We are going to object to what happened
during the course of his trial. He ha snot presented
an affidavit against him or the judgment result of that
trial, and we don't think it to be competent.
BY MR. SHANDS: We add to that if he is trying to re -
litigate his guilt or innocence in this court, then he
is in the wrong spot.
BY JUDGE RIVES: I can't see what the relevancy is.
BY MR. BELL: The point I was trying to bring out is
that there were additional threats by these same persons
(R-1070)
concerning what would happen to him again if he tried to
ride in front of a bus.
BY JUDGE CLAYTON: You mean by these same persons? The
sheriff and deputy and the people at Winona?
BY MR. BELL: I believe that is correct. And the whole
course of the testimony is to bring out that as a
matter of fact employees of the defendant carriers are,
with or without orders from their superiors, attempting
to maintain segregation on their buses in calling local
police authorities when this is not done voluntarily,
289
(R-1070)
and this is the type of thing which can happen when
these drivers are permitted to act as we feel they still
do.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Do you propose to show the employees of
the carrier took any further part except that you connect
him up with the officers?
BY MR. BELL: No, sir. There was no further action by
the employees themselves. The only action was resulting
from the original action which we attribute to the em
ployees.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You are probably going too far afield.
You have shown enough already on that.
BY MR. SHANDS: I would like to move, for the purpose
of the record, to striice the statement from the record
just made by counsel for plaintiff. The reasons are
that it purports and is patently on its face statements
not supported by the testimony of this witness or any
(R-1071)
other witness testifying in the case.
BY JUDGE RIVES: As I understand it, it was simply a
statement of what he proposed to prove, in answer to
the Court’s inquiry.
BY MR. SHANDS: Together with his conclusion as to what
the testimony had been.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Of course, that has no probative value.
We will overrule the motion to strike it from the record.
BY MR. SHANDS: We want the record to be clear.
290
(R-1071)
BY" MR. BELL: We won't continue any further on that par
ticular situation. I would like to clarify a few points
in the story.
Q. At Columbus you changed buses. Which bus did you change
to?
A. X changed from a Greyhound bus to a Trail ways bus.
Q. When did you finally arrive home in Greenville, your des
tination?
A. Monday night, September 28th.
Q. Did you arrive---
A. — August 28th.
Q. Did you pull in at the Greenville terminal?
A, No, I did not. I was in a car.
Q. How long have you lived in Greenville?
A. Consecutively for twenty years.
Q. You indicated that at one point in Winona you had gotten
off and gone in the colored waiting room to brush your
teeth. How did you know that was a colored waiting
room?
(R-1072)
A. There was a sign that said "COLORED INTRASTATE PASSENGERS
ONLY." Across from that there was a sign that said
"WHITE INTRASTATE PASSENGERS ONLY."
Q* When you changed buses at Columbus, did you notice any
signs of a similar nature in that terminal?
A. There were signs of an identical nature in that terminal
because the same sign that was in Winona was in Columbus.
291
(R-1072)
Q. What did it read?
A. "COLORED INTRASTATE PASSENGERS ONLY."
Q. Was there a similar sign —
BY MR. SHANDS: We object to that. If that lsn*t lead
ing -— Let him ask what sign that was.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Sustain the objection.
Q, Was there another waiting room?
A, Yes, just opposite that, one which was around the corner,
I'll say, from that one which said "WHITE INTRASTATE
PASSENGERS ONLY."
Q. In Greenville, your home, is there a Greyhound bus termi
nal?
A. Yes, there is. There is a Greyhound bus terminal and
there is a Trailways bus terminal combined. There is
also a Delta Coaches bus terminal.
Q. As to the Greyhound and the Trailways bus terminals, which
you indicate are combined, are there any signs at that
facility?
A. Yes, there are, and as you approach the front of the ter-
(R-1073)
minal there is a sign that says "WHITE INTRASTATE PASSEN
GERS ONLY" and way around the back side there is a sign
that says "COLORED INTRASTATE PASSENGERS ONLY."
BY MR. CLARK: I understand we have a continuing objec
tion to this witness* testimony with regard to the
Attorney General?
292
(R-1073)
BY JUDGE RIVES: I think we have stated that a number of
times. You certainly do.
Q. The signs you were just referring to, where are they
located?
A. They are located at the top of each door upon entering
the door, at the top of the door there is a large white
sign in black letters, written in black letters, that
says "WHITE INTRASTATE PASSENGERS," and on the other
door it says "COLORED INTRASTATE PASSENGERS ONLY."
BY MR, BELL: We have no further questions.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may cross examine.
BY MR. SHANDS: We would like to reserve and ask the
Court, in recognition of the testimony or the words he
has spoken here, to grant us the privilege of deferring
our cross examination of this witness.
BY JUDGE RIVES: All right. Any further cross examina
tion?
BY MR, WATKINS: No, sir.
BY MR, O'MARA: May I ask the Court to clear me up on
this point? I understood the Court yesterday that in
these instances where objections are made and the Court
(R-1074)
does not rule on them but carries them with the case,
that we do not waive any rights by cross examining that
witness?
BY JUDGE RIVES: That is true.
293
(R-1074)
GROSS EXAMINATION
EY MR. O’MARA:
Q. What time was it when you boarded the bus in Atlanta?
A. Approximately 11:30.
Q. A.M. or P.M.?
A. A.M.
Q. That was on August 26, i960?
A. Right. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. What bus was it you boarded?
A. A Greyhound bus,
Q. Do you know the name of the driver?
A. I do not recall the name of the driver.
0. When you boarded the bus, where did you sit?
A. The second seat from the front.
Q. What was it you said the driver said to you?
A. "You will have to go to the back seat of this bus."
Q. What did you do?
A. I refused to do so. Of course, I begged his pardon be'
fore that and he repeated, and I refused to do so and
resumed my reading.
Q. What?
A* Resumed my reading. I was reading a book.
(R-1075)
^hat did the driver then do?
A. The driver then turned, after cursing, and sat in the
driver’s seat and proceeded to drive off.
wade no effort to move you?
29 h
(R-1075)
A. ¥111 you repeat your question?
Q, He made no effort to move you?
A. He shook his finger In my face, if you would call that an
effort. If not, he made none.
Q. Didn't he strike you too?
A. I beg your pardon, please?
Q. Didn't he strike you?
A. That bus driver did not. I was boarding the bus then in
Atlanta, Georgia.
£U Didn’t that bus driver call the officers?
A. Ho, he did not because I had changed buses upon my arri
val in Winona, Mississippi.
Q. I'm talking about in Atlanta. We haven't gotten to
Winona yet.
A. Will you repeat your question, please?
Q. Didn't he call the officers in Atlanta?
A. Ho, he did not.
Q. Ho officers came on the bus and struck you there?
A. Hot in Atlanta, Georgia.
Q* When you told the driver you were going to sit there, or
words to that effect, the driver then did nothing, but
got in his seat, the driver's seat, and drove the bus
on away from the station?
(R-1076)
A. Hot quite. He used abusive language and shook his finger
in my face. Then he got in the driver’s seat.
And then drove on off?
295
(R-1076)
A. Proceeded to drive off, yes, sir.
Q. Where was your next stop?
A. My next stop or bus change or driver change?
Q. Where?
A. Will you repeat your question? I ’m asking if you are
asking next stop as a city or the next time I changed
buses.
Q. No. Your next stop.
A. I do not recall the next city I stopped at.
Q. All right. Where did you change buses?
A, Prom Atlanta, Georgia, the next place I changed buses?
Is that what you*re asking?
Q. Yes. That’s what we are talking about,
A. Montgomery, .Alabama, if I recall.
Q. What time did you arrive in Montgomery?
A. I do not know that.
Q* Was it that same day?
A. It was not the same day. It was that night.
Q. About what time that night?
A. As I noted before, I do not recall what time.
Give us your best judgment.
A. I have no judgment because I was a ll intrigued in the
book I was reading, and I paid absolutely no attention
to the time, s ir .
— it around eight o ’clock that night or four o ’clock
the next morning? You are bound to have some idea of
296
(R-1077)
the hour.
A. I'm sorry, sir, I have no idea.
Q. What line did you change to in Montgomery?
A. I did not change to a line. I only changed bus drivers,
and I was still on a Greyhound bus. I only changed bus
lines upon my arrival in Columbus, Mississippi, where I
boarded a Trailways bus.
Q. How long were you in Montgomery?
A. Approximately 30 minutes.
Q. About what time did you leave Montgomery?
A. I have no idea, sir.
Q. Were you still reading your book then?
A. I took time out to watch where I was going and go in and
sit down, and then I proceeded to read my book, paying
absolutely no attention to the time.
Q. You don't know whether it was around eight o'clock that
night or three o'clock the next morning?
A. I was not completely aware of what time it was. There
wasn't that much difference in the hours, certainly,
but I was not aware of the exact time.
Q. I'm not asking you the exact time. I ’m simply asking
your best judgment.
A. Well, it was between eight o ’clock and three o'clock.
Q* Well, I'll say this: You can’t be wrong there. Did
anything happen in Montgomery?
(R-1078)
A* Only the bus driver stated that he could not guarantee my
(R-1078)
safety and that I could not sit up front —
Q. — I’m sorry. I didn’t understand you.
A. The bus driver stated that he could not guarantee my
safety and that I could not sit at the front seat of the
bus.
Q. Had you taken a seat at the front of the bus?
A. Yes, I had. I had sat second seat from the front,
Q. Did the driver ask you to move or make any other state
ments to you?
A. He only indicated that I could not sit at the front seat
of the bus and indicated he could not guarantee my
safety.
Q. Did he assault you?
A. Wo, sir, he didn't.
Q. Did he call any officers?
A. No, sir, he didn’t.
Q* What did you do?
A- Repeat your question, please?
Q. What did you do?
A* I sat in the second seat from the front and resumed my
reading.
0* Did you move when the driver talked to you?
A Wo, I did not.
Did the driver then drive the bus on away from Montgomery?
A. He did.
0.* What was that driver's name?
A- I do not recall.
298
(R-1078)
Q. Where did you next stop?
(R-1079)
A. Columbus, Mississippi.
Q. About what time did you arrive in Columbus?
A. Approximately 8:30 A.M.
Q. That was on August 27th?
A, Yes, it was.
Q. How long were you in Columbus?
A. Between five and fifteen minutes, as I recall.
Q. You changed buses in that time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that where you boarded a Trailways bus?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you stay on that bus from then on until you arrived
in Winona?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you left Columbus, or were getting ready to leave
Columbus, did the bus driver have conversation with you?
A* Yes, sir. He said, "Nigger, you are not going to sit at
the front of this bus." I said, "I beg your pardon,
sir." He repeated his statement, and of course I sat
the second seat from the front and refused to move back
and resumed my reading.
Ho you know the name of that driver?
I do not recall.
As I understand it, that driver said, "Nigger, you are
not going to sit on the front of the bus."
299
(R-1079)
A, Yes, sir, that was the statement.
Q. And you told him you begged his pardon and you kept
reading?
(R-1080)
A. I said, !'I beg your pardon, sir." He repeated his state
ment. % attention was directed to him until he re
peated his statement. When he finished, I resumed my
reading, not commenting.
Q. Did you move?
A. No, I did not move.
Q. Did the bus driver attempt to move you?
A. No, he did not make any physical attempt to move me.
Q. Did nothing else?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Then he drove the bus on from the bus terminal in Colum
bus?
A. Winona.
Q* We havens gotten to Winona yet. I was under the im
pression that what you were telling me about was what the
bus driver told you in Columbus.
A. That*s right, and I believe you said he proceeded to
drive on to Winona.
Q* I said "from Columbus,"
A. Prom Columbus? That is correct. To Winona.
0* Did you make any stops between Columbus and Winona?
A. Yes, sir, several stops were made.
Q* About what time did you arrive in Winona?
300
(R-1080)
A. It was in the morning. I cannot recall what time, but it
was in the morning and it was not past ten o'clock.
Q. I believe you said on your direct examination that when
you arrived in Winona you saw the sheriff and a deputy
sheriff standing in front of the bus station.
(R-1081)
A. I saw two white men standing in front of the bus station,
of whom I later learned was the sheriff and his deputy.
Q. Well, those were the two individuals?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The sheriff and a deputy sheriff?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you saw them as the bus drove up in front of the
station?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In other words, those two men were there before the bus
got there?
A. Yes, sir.
That was a Continental Southern or Trailways bus?
A. That was a Trailways bus.
Q. When you got off the bus in Winona, what did you first
do?
A. Get off the bus and proceed to go into the restroom and
brush my teeth.
Q* lid anyone say anything to you as you proceeded into the
restroom?
A* No one said anything.
301
(R-1081)
Q,. You. then came out of the restroom, after brushing your
teeth?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did anyone say anything to you then?
A. Yes, sir. I was approached by the same two men that
I noticed standing outside, of whom I later learned
was the sheriff and the deputy, and of course they
stated, "Nigger, we want to see you." I begged their
pardon, and they repeated their statement, and before
(R-1082)
I could reply I was struck over the head with a black
jack.
Q* And the two officers assaulted you in the bus station?
A. Yes, sir*
Q. Before they took you to jail did you say that a group of
white people surrounded you and attacked you?
A. Yes, sir, between five and ten who came out of the
white side of the waiting room.
Q. Did those individuals or any of them strike you?
A. No, sir. They only held me while the sheriff and the
deputy striked me.
Q* The sheriff and the deputy were both striking you?
A. Yes, they were.
Q* With blackjacks?
A. Yes, sir. The sheriff had no blackjack. He was striking
ise with his fists. The deputy used the blackjack.
Q* While these five or so citizens were holding you?
302
(R-1002)
A, Yes, sir. Not all five of them; only some of the five.
I cannot give you an exact amount of who had hold of me.
The rest was standing around.
Q, You were then taken from the bus station to the city
jail?
A. I was then beaten into a state of semiconsciousness, and
when I woke up again I was in a car, and I was then
taken to the city jail.
Q. Now, after you regained consciousness, did you ever again
see the bus driver that drove you from Columbus to
Winona?
(R-IO83)
A. No, sir, I didn’t, I was in a car.
Q. I believe you said, did you not, that you made some
three or four or five stops between Columbus and Winona?
A. Yes, sir, stops of which were Trailways or Trailways and
Greyhound stopping terminals.
Q. At those stops in those different towns between Columbus
and Winona where the bus stopped, passengers would get
on and off the bus, would they not?
A* Yes, sir, including the bus driver.
BY MR. O ’MARA: I believe that is all.
BY JUDGE RXVES: Any further cross examination? If not,
you may examine on redirect.
BY MR. BELL: No further questions,
BY JUDGE RIVES: (to witness) You may come down.
(R-1083)
303
(Witness excused)
BY MR. SHANDS: As we have reserved our cross examina
tion ob. this witness, I assume he will remain and be
available.
BY MR. BELL; Yes, sir.
HELEN G. O ’NEAL, called as a witness and having been duly
sworn, testified as follows;
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL;
Q. State your full name.
(R-1084)
A. Helen G. O ’Neal.
Q. Spell 0"Neal.
A. 0-n-e-a-l.
Q. Your address?
A. Here in Jackson it is 1408 Dalton.
Q. Inhere is your permanent home?
A. Clarksdale, Mississippi, 649 Grant Street.
And your present occupation?
A. Student.
Q* At what college?
A. Jackson State College.
Q* What is your standing as a student there?
4. A junior.
0- Speak up a little louder so all the Court can hear you.
Your standing as a student at Jackson State College?
304
(R-1084)
A. Junior.
Q. Miss O ’Neal, do you ever have occasion to ride the buses
of the Greyhound bus lines?
A. Five or six times a year.
Q, Generally where do you go on those trips?
A. Clarksdale, Mississippi.
Q. And Clarksdale is your home?
A. That’s right.
Q. When was your most recent trip to Clarksdale?
A. Labor Day.
Q. Where is your starting point when you are going to
Clarksdale?
A. Jackson. I leave the Greyhound station^
(R-X085)
BT MR, CANNABA: We still can’t hear.
By JUDGE RIVES: (to witness) Raise your voice and
talk more distinctly. They have to hear you way out
there.
Q. Your most recent trip to Clarksdale from Jackson was on
what date?
A. September 4th.
Q» What year?
A. 1961.
BY MR. O ’MARA: We object to the testimony offered by
this witness. I may be making this objection a little
ahead of time, but I assume, Counsel, she is testifying
305
(R—1085)
with regard to some incident regarding Continental
Southern or Greyhound?
BY MR* BELL: Greyhound. I think we went over this
yesterday and pointed out —
BY MR. O ’MARA: — If counsel will let me make ray objec
tion, I ’ll appreciate it.
BY MR. BELL: Sorry.
BY MR. O ’MARA: We object to any testimony on the part
of this witness for the reason that both the Greyhound
and Continental Southern propounded interrogatories to
the plaintiffs inquiring as to the names and addresses
of each person who had riden a bus as a passenger and
who has been allegedly subjected to any custom, rule or
policy of segregation of the races, and they answered
(R-1086)
those interrogatories and as to Greyhound Corporation and
likewise as to Continental Southern did not name this
witness. The interrogatory 1, which is the interroga
tory which I have reference to, the plaintiffs in ans
wering that interrogatory stated they did not know the
names of all of the passengers who had been allegedly
so subjected to a policy, rule or custom of segregation
on the buses, but that they did intend to use some of
those individuals as witnesses, and they named, insofar
as Greyhound is concerned, two individuals, neither of
whom is this witness. Wow, we submit, Your Honor, that
the very purpose of the interrogatories — and when they
306
(r-1086)
are fairly answered — requires the giving of all of the
names of these individuals, and plaintiffs have failed
to do that with regard to this witness, and we had no
previous knowledge of the use of this witness until
yesterday or later during the day when counsel orally
gave us the name of this witness, that being the first
time we were informed of this witness.
BY MR. BELL: I believe this is the same objection made
yesterday, and we have gone through it fairly completely.
At that point you indicated that as to a person whose
name we had given but we had indicated had had an inci
dent on one day went on the stand and indicated it was
another, that that would not be in keeping with the
interrogatory; but in keeping with the questions pre
sented in our answer to the interrogatories, we were not
limited and never intended to be limited to just those
(R-IO87)
persons. We Indicated some of the persons we would
call would be — We had indicated, first of all, that
we did not know all the persons who had had this type
of problem, but as to some of those we gave those names,
and I understood it was the ruling of the Court at that
time that we were not limited by that answer from call
ing additional witnesses.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We will reserve ruling on that.
BT MR. O'MARA: Is it understood we have a running ob
jection?
507
(R-1087)
BY JUDGE HIVES: Yes.
(continuing:)
Q. Will you tell in your own words what happened when you
boarded the Greyhound bus on September 4, 1961?
A. I boarded the bus on September 4, 1961 on my way home.
I took the second seat from the front of the bus, which
was on the right side. After taking this seat, the
driver told me I might be in someonels seat. I told him
if I was I would move when they asked me, or maybe they
would share the seat with me. The driver then left the
bus. I saw a student going to M.V.C. —
Q. Where?
A. M.V.C. Mississippi Vocational College. And I had —
BY MR. O ’MARA: Will you ask her to repeat the whole of
that answer. We can't hear all —
(The last answer was read by the reporter.)
(R-1088)
EY JUDGE RIVES: (to witness) Speak loudly and distinct
ly so they may all hear you.
BY WITNESS: All right.
A. Then I went back to talk to him about selling him the
album, which was the Freedom Riders' album, "We Shall
Overcome." After talking to him for a while and he
told me he would contact me, I went back and took my seat;
Then the driver and the police officer boarded the bus.
The police officer told me, "Girl, you have to move."
308
(R-108S)
I refused to move because I wasn't in anyone's seat. No
one was standing and there were other vacant seats.
Then he told me, "I'm going to place you under arrest
if you don't." I still didn't move. I told him, "I'm
ready to go with you, sir."
Q* Was this the bus driver you were talking to?
A. This was the police officer. The driver was standing
with the police officer.
Q. When did the police officer board the bus?
A. The driver left the bus, and he came back about three
minutes later with the police officer. Then the police
officer took me off the bus around to the front of the
bus station and called a car and took me to the city
jail, where I was questioned, and again they took pic
tures and my height and weight and asked me other ques
tions. Then I was locked up for about four hours pro
bably. That was 1:20, the 1:20 bus. I must have made
(R 1089)^° ■p0'I‘ice sta,,:ion about 1:30, and I stayed there
until six o'clock, and they gave me an escort back to
the bus station, two detectives, and they waited until
I boarded the bus at 7 :15.
Then you proceeded to your home?
A. That * s right,
MR. BELL: No further questions.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may cross examine.
309
(r-1089)
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q, I noticed you said when they took you to the police sta
tion they again took pictures.
A. Thatts right.
Q. Does that mean you had been there before?
A. Yes, I had.
Q. What police officers took you off the bus?
A. I don’t know his name. He wouldn't give it to me.
Q. As a matter of fact, you are extremely active and have
been for some time in the activities of Congress—
C-O-R-E, CORE, whatever that stands for,
A. Congress of Racial Equality.
Q. You have been very active in that organization?
A. No, I ’m not a member of that organization.
Q. Have you been very active in the organization and activi-
. ties of the N.A.A.C.P.?
(R-109Q)
A. I'm not a member of the A.A.A.C.P.
Q. But apparently you were very interested in what you
called the Freedom Riders' Album.
A. I'm interested in freedom for all men.
Q* As a matter of fact, on July 19/ 1961/ when there were
four distinguished southern governors meeting in Jackson,
you placed yourself on the street In front of the hotel
in which they were meeting with a sign which stated, in
substance, "Governors, why don’t you join the United
States of America"?
310
(R-1090)
BY MR. BEIL: We object. I don't believe the question
has any relevancy to the issues in this case.
BY JUDGE RIVES: It might have some bearing upon the
credibility. Overrule the objection.
Q. Weren't you there carrying that sign?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And weren't you in the company of seme high officer of
C.O.R.E. and weren’t the two of you carrying signs in
front of that building?
A. We were together in front of the building with signs pro
testing segregation.
Q. And yet you tell this Court you have not taken any part
in C.O.R.E.'s activities?
A. I am not a member of C.O.R.E.
Q. Have you been employed by them or worked with them?
(R-1091)
A. Wo, I do not work for them.
Q. But you work with them?
A. I work with all people striving for freedom and equality.
Q. And you place C.O.R.E. in that category?
A* That is true.
Q- Are you a member of any organization on the list of the
Attorney General's, organizations listed as subversive?
BY MR, BELL: We object to that. There is no indication
from any of the testimony given by the witness she
should be subjected to this even for Impeachment.
311
(R-1091)
BY MR. WATKINS: This witness has admitted, without
claiming any relationship to C.O.R.E.'s organization,
that she was with the top Mississippi man of C.O.R.E.,
only the two of them, carrying a sign asking four
southern governors why they don’t join the United States
of America. I think I have a right to go into her be
liefs.
BY MR. BELL: As you well know, none of the organiza
tions that she has mentioned in connection with her
testimony are on the U. S. Attorney General’s list of
subversive organizations, and I don’t think there is any
basis for this question.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We think it might possibly have a
bearing on credibility. It is cross examination, and
we overrule the objection, (to witness:) You may
answer the question.
A. No.
(R-1092)
Q. Are you familiar with the organizations listed by the
Attorney Genwral as subversive?
A. No.
Q- I wish you would look at Exhibit 1 to the deposition of
Samuel Bailey taken in this case on June 29, 1961, which
is the "Aimed Forces Security Questionnaire" and which
purports to list the organizations designated by the
Attorney General pursuant to Executive Order 10450, and
I want to ask you to tell the Court whether you are a
212
(R-1092)
member of or have had any participation with any of
those organizations. Take such time as you may need to
look over that list.
(Hands to witness)
A. No, because I don't belong to any organizations.
BY- MR, WATKINS: I would like for the record to show
that she gave that answer in approximately one minute's
time and that there are listed on the exhibit well over
two hundred organizations; and for purposes of identifi
cation I would like to have that exhibit in Thomas
Bailey's deposition of June 29, l?6l, marked for identi
fication and I would like to make it a part of the evi
dence in this case.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Just the exhibit?
BY MR. WATKINS: Yes, sir.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendants' Exhibit
#1. This exhibit is not copied here because upon order of
the Court all original exhibits are sent up with the mimeo
graphed record.)
(R-1093)
BY MR. WATKINS: May I have the Courts* permission to
reproduce this, because I don't want to delete it from
the deposition.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may secure another copy,
(continuing:)
°u* ^ police officer that took you back to the bus at six
313
(R-1093)
o’clock gave you a dollar to buy you something to eat,
didn’t he?
A. He certainly did.
BY MR. WATKINS: I believe that is all.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Any further cross examination?
BY MR. SHANDS: In view of the nature of this testimony,
could we reserve the cross examination of this witness?
BY JUDGE RIVES: All right.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. O ’MARA:
Q. What time did you get back to the bus station?
A. I left the police station at six o ’clock.
Q. Did you go straight on to the bus station?
A. Straight to the bus station.
Q. And it only took you some five or ten minutes?
A. I guess so.
Q. What time did you leave the bus station?
A. At 7:15.
Q* That was on a bus going to Clarksdale?
(R-1094)
A. That’s right.
Q* Was that a Greyhound bus?
A- Greyhound.
Q. Where did you sit on that bus?
A. On about the third seat. In fact, I ’m sure it was the
third seat.
314
(R-1094)
Q. That Is approximately the same seat that you—
A. — That is true.
Q. — were on in the first bus?
A. That is true.
Q. And you rode on to Clarksdale in that seat?
A. That is true.
BY MR. 0 ‘MARA: That is all.
REDIRECT EXAICEMTION
EY MR. BELL:
Q. You indicated that a police officer gave you a dollar?
A. Captain Barnes of the police station, the officer at
the station, gave me the dollar. Captain Barnes.
Q. Why did he give you a dollar?
A. Because he had detained me, and I was here visiting
friends and I asked whether or not I could stay for —
He told me did I want to leave then or stay. I told
him I would stay for supper.
Q. How long was it since you had eaten last?
A. I had breakfast and I got on the bus at 1:15* and I would
(R-IO95)
have been home but I stayed up there until six o'clock.
Q. Did they give you anything to eat in jail?
A. No.
BY MR. BELL: No further questions.
315
(r-1095 )
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q, Did you ask for anything to eat in jail?
A. I asked whether I could stay for supper.
Q. You wanted to stay for supper in jail?
A. 1 wanted to eat supper, yes.
Q, They serve good food in the Jackson jail, donft they?
A. No.
Q. They do not? Did I understand you to say that you volun
tarily stayed in jail an hour or two longer than you
were required to?
A. No. They took me out of the cell and I was sitting in
the little room waiting for time to leave for the bus.
BY MR. WATKINS: That is all.
BY JUDGE RXVES: Do you want her to remain available?
BY MR. SIIANDS: Yes, sir.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You will have to remain in the building.
(Witness excused)
(R-1096)
WILMA J. JONES, called as a witness and having been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
MR. BEIL:
Q* State your full name, please.
A* Wilma Jean Jones.
Q* A little louder, please.
316
(R-1Q96)
A. Wilma Jean Jones.
Q. And your home address?
A. Post office box 657.
Q. What city?
A. Clarksdale, Mississippi.
Q. And your present occupation? Do you work?
A. No, I don't.
Q. You go to school?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What school do you attend?
A. ¥. A. Higgins High School.
Q. Where is that located?
A. Clarksdale, Mississippi.
Q. ¥hat grade in school are you?
A. Ninth,
Q* Do you consider yourself a Negro?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And a citizen of the United States?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Have you had occasion to ride the Illinois Central Rail-
(R-IO97)
road within the last six months?
A* No, I haven't.
Q* Did you attempt to ride the Illinois Central Railroad
within the last six months?
A* Yes, I did.
Q* On what date did you make this attempt?
317
(R-1097)
A, August 23* 1961.
Q. In what city did you attempt to ride one of the trains of
the Illinois Central Railroad?
A, Clarksdale, Mississippi.
Q, Where did you plan to go?
A. Memphis, Tennessee.
Q. Were you accompanied by any other people?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Do you remember their names?
A, Yes, I do. Adrian Beard, and Mary Jane Pigee.
Q. Adrian Beard?
A. And Mary Jane Pigee.
BY THE COURT: Repeat those names.
(Names were repeated)
Q. How do you spell Pigee?
A. P-i-g-e-e.
Q. Will you in your own words tell us what happened to
yourself and these other two persons when you attempted
to ride a train of the Illinois Central Railroad on
August 23, 1961.
(R-1098)
A. I went by Miss Pigeefs house and —
Q* ~~ Slowly.
A. I went by Mary Jane Pigee’s house and asked her to go to
Memphis with me along with Adrian Beard, and she called
her mother and asked could she go, and she told her yes.
We left about two o'clock —
318
(R-1098)
Q. ¥as this two o ’clock in the afternoon?
A. Yes, It was. We walked to the train station and walked
in the white —
Q. You walked to the train station?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Did you observe in the train station any signs?
A. There was a sign on the outside that said, "WAITING ROOM,
WHITE ONLY - By Order of City Police."
Q. Was there any other sign on the outside of the railroad
station?
A. It was one down further said, "WAITING ROOM, COLORED -
By Order of City Police." and also one on the front that
said the same thing.
Q. Which waiting room did you enter?
A. The white waiting room.
Q. Do you mean by that the waiting room with the sign over
the top reading — what?
A. "WAITING ROOM, WHITE ONLY - By Order of City Police."
BY MR. CERNE: I would like to object to that question.
I don’t believe the witness testified the sign was on
the station.
(R-1099)
BY MR. BELL: I’m sorry, Your Honor.
BY JUDGE RIVES: All right.
Q. Would you tell the Court where the signs were located?
The signs are over the door of each waiting room, two on
319
(R-1099)
the front and two on the back, tacked right up over the
door.
Q. Tacked right up over the door?
A. Yes, sir, they are.
Q. Continue your story from the point where you entered the
white waiting room.
A. When we walked in the door there was a boy who was get
ting a ticket, a white person.
Q. Wait. I can’t understand you.
A. When we walked in the door, there was a white boy getting
a ticket, and we walked to the ticket window and the
ticket agent came to us and asked what we wanted, and
Miss Pigee said, "We would like to purchase a ticket to
Memphis, Tennessee." Then he turned and walked in the
office. I couldn't see what he was doing. And he came
back and said, "Step through on the other side." And —
Q. What did he mean by "step on the other side."
BY MR, SHARDS: We object to that, "What did he mean?"
By JUDGE RIVES: Sustain the objection.
Q. Now, a little slowly.
A. He said, "Step through on the other side." On the other
(R-1100)side was the colored waiting room, and Miss Pigee asked
him why couldn’t we get the ticket on this side, and
we did not receive an answer.
^ What happened then?
520
(R-1100)
A. He busied himself with the tickets in the office, and we
went and sit down until he could give us the tickets.
And then ---
Q. Did he wait on any other persons?
A. He was waiting on a white boy when we walked in.
Q. After he refused to sell you tickets, did he wait on any
other persons?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. What did you do then?
A. We went up and had a seat by the door. It's two seats on
each side, and we sat on the left side.
Q. Was this in the waiting room with the sign marked for
whites?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. What happened then?
A. Two or three minutes later the police came.
Q. Continue.
A. He ordered us to get up and get out, and he said it again,
"Get up and get out." Didn't anyone say anything. And
the third time he said it and he said, "You're under
arrest." And we answered his reply.
BY JUDGE RIVES: That would mean the policeman ordered
you to get up and get out?
BY WITNESS: Yes, sir.
(R-1101)
During this time, did you have further conversation with
the ticket agent?
321
(R-11Q1)
A. No.
Q. Did any other employee of the Illinois Central Railroad
approach you during the conversation with the police?
A. No, he didn't. He didn't even come out to see what was
happening.
Q. Were you taken out of the station by the police?
A. Yes, we were.
Q, And what happened then?
A. We were taken down to the police station.
Q. You were taken where?
A. To the police station about a half a block away.
Q. Continue telling us what happened to you.
A. When we went to the police station, we were — It is a
room where you're booked, and we were asked our names,
our ages, the year born, the month, date, were we
married, were we members of the church, and that’s all.
BY MR. SHARDS: If there is a written record of that,
we think that is the best evidence.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Overrule that.
Q. Tell us what happened to you then?
A. Miss Pigee was locked up first, and I was locked up se
cond, and then Beard was locked up.
Q. How old are you?
(R-1102)
A. Fifteen.
Q* What happened after you were locked up?
322
(R-1102)
A. When Miss Pigee and I were locked up, we began singing
songs and later the officers came down and told us to be
quiet.
Q. How long did you remain in jail?
A. Between five and six hours.
Q. After you were released, were you placed on trial?
BY MR. WATKINS: We object to that. If any charge has
been placed against this girl or she was ever tried,
that Is a court record and that is the best evidence.
BY MR. BELL: We just asked if she was placed.
BY JUDGE RXVES: Overrule idle objection.
Q. Would you answer that?
A. Miss Pigee was placed on trial the next day, and I was
placed on trial later.
BY MR. BELL: We have no further questions.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may cross examine.
BY MR. SHARDS: We'd like to reserve cross examination
of this witness.
BY MR. CERNE: I have a few questions.
(R-1103)
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. CERNE:
Q* Do I understand it was approximately three minutes from
the time you first entered the train station until the
police officer arrived?
323
(R-1103)
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Is it correct that during this entire time the ticket
agent was making out a ticket for that person who was
at his window when you entered?
A. Would you repeat the question?
(Last question was read)
A. Yes, he was.
Q. During this three minutes did you hear the ticket agent
call the police?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Did you hear any employee of the Illinois Central call
the police or call anybody else?
A. No, I didn’t.
BY MR. CERNB: No further questions.
BY THE COURT: Any redirect?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
Q. During this time when the police were questioning you and
taking you out of the station, did the ticket agent
make any protest to the police?
A. No, he didn’t.
(H-1104)
Q* Did any other person who identified himself as connected
with the Illinois Central Railroad attempt to interfere
with the police action?
Didn’t anyone try to interfere with him.
324
(R-1104)
BY JUDGE RIVES: (to witness) You may come down. It
will be necessary for you to remain, because they are
reserving their right to cross examine.
(Witness excused)
(Whereupon the Court was recessed for ten minutes.)
After Recess
MRS. VERA PIGEE, called as a witness and having been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
ft. Speaking loudly enough so the Court can hear you, will
you give us your name?
A, Mrs. Vera Pigee from Clarksdale, Mississippi.
Q. Give us your complete address.
A. 6ll Baird Avenue.
ft* You are a citizen of the United States?
A. Yes, I am.
ft* You consider yourself a Negro?
A. I do.
ft* Mrs. Pigee, have you had occasion to ride a bus of the
Greyhound bus line within the last year or two?
(R-1105)
A. Yes, I have.
ft* Can you tell us when?
It was the la st of April or f ir s t of May, 1959*
ft* 1959?
325
(R-1105)
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you plan to go and from where were you leaving
on the Greyhound bus?
A. Leaving from Clarksdale, Mississippi, going to Memphis,
Tennessee.
Q. Can you tell us what happened to you on that particular
day when you attempted to board that bus?
A. Yes, I can. The bus —
BY MR. O ’MARA: We make the same objection, Greyhound
and Continental Southern, to the testimony of this
witness as we did to the testimony of the other wit
nesses relative to plaintiffs* not furnishing this
name and address of this witness in response to interro
gatories.
BY JUDGE RIVESs Same ruling. We’ll carry it with the
case.
Q. Continue with your story.
A. Yes, I can. This bus was departing from Clarksdale,
Mississippi, at 8:45 A.M. I had purchased a round trip
ticket to Memphis, Tennessee. When the bus was called,
I was the f ir s t to enter the door of the bus. The
Greyhound driver — In lin e behind me stood a Negro man
(R-1106)
and woman, and behind these two persons stood two white
women. The driver told me to get out of the way. The
first time he said to get out of the way, I didn’t
326
(R-1106)
answer. He said it again, and I asked him if he was
speaking to me. And he said he was. I told him that I
had purchased a ticket to Memphis and was trying to
board the bus, and I wanted to know why should I step
aside. He did not answer me. He said to those two
white women down the line, "You ladies come on." Then
I asked him if I had to step aside for someone else and
I had purchased my ticket also. He said, "Thatfs the
way it is." Then I refused to move. He took the ticket
of these two white women and the other Negroes, and when
they all was on the bus he closed the door and he came
close to me and said, "You did not purchase a ticket to
boss the damn bus; you purchased a ticket to ride it."
% reply to him was "That's why I'm standing at the door;
if I was cross the street you wouldn't know I wanted to
get on."
Q. Here you allowed to board the bus?
A. He went back in the station and stayed two or three min
utes. Then he came back and snatched my ticket out of
my hand and opened the door of the bus about this big
(indicating) and I was able to squeeze on.
Q. Where did you sit on the bus?
A. I sat about the third seat on the bus.
Q* Were there any other incidents en route on your trip to
Memphis?
(8-ll°7)
Well, I went on to Memphis and when I got there I went to
327
(R-1107)
the superintendent of the Greyhound lines — the mana
ger, rather, superintendent of this terminal in Memphis
— and I reported this incident to him.
Q. Have you received any response to your complaint?
A. No.
Q. Do you happen to have the name of the bus driver that you
had the incident with in Clarksdale?
A. Yes.
Q. What is his name?
A. P. E. Tarnley.
Q,. Do you have that written down any place?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. So we could get the correct spelling.
A. P m sorry. It is not Tamley. It's P. E. Lammy. L-a-m-m-
y. I hope that spelling is correct. I know they pro
nounce it Lammy.
Q. Repeat what you believe his name to be and the way you
think it is spelled.
A* P. E. Lammy.
Q. Lammy?
A. L-a-m-m-y.
BY MR. BELL: No further questions.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Any cross examination?
BY MR. O'MARA: Your Honor, we are in this position:
We did not know about this witness until late yesterday,
528
(R-1108)
or this occurrence. ¥e haven11 been In a position to
check the occurrence and make any investigation on it,
and therefore we ask the Court if you would give us the
right to cross examine this witness at a later date
after we have had an opportunity to check into the
occurrence.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Of course, we are not going to continue
the trial. Will you have an opportunity to do it during
the day?
BY MR. O ’MARA: We will make an effort, but, frankly,
I don't know whether this driver is in our employ at
this time. If he is, I don’t know where he might be
located.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may reserve cross examination but
with the understanding the trial is not going to be
postponed.
BY MR. O ’MARA: May we have the understanding this wit
ness will not leave and we can cross examine her later?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes. You will have to remain in the
witness room (to witness) and be cross examined later.
BY MR, BELL: No further questions.
(Witness excused)
BY MR. SHANDS: We also would like to reserve cross
examination.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes.
BY MR. BEIL: Our next witness is Mrs. Mildred Cosey.
329
(R-1109)
MRS. MILDRED C. COSEY, called as a witness and having been
duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
Q. Speaking in a voice so everyone in the court can hear,
tell us your full name.
A. I am Mrs. Mildred Cleopatra Cosey.
Q. How do you spell your last name?
A. C-o-s-e-y.
Q. Will you give us your full address?
A. I reside Route 2, Box HOB, Vicksburg, Mississippi.
Q.. Are you a citizen of the United States?
A. I am.
MR. SHANDS: Was that Route 22?
BY WITNESS: The route Is Route 2, Box 11 OB.
Q. Do you consider yourself a Negro?
A. I do.
Mrs. Cosey, in the last few years have you had occasion
to ride a bus of the Trailways bus lines?
A. Yes, sir.
Q* Can you tell us the date on which you had this ride?
A* Yes, sir. July 1, 1959.
^ And where did you leave?
A* I left St. Louis, Missouri. When I got Into Memphis my
ticket was re-issued.
Q* Where was your fin a l destination?
350
(R-1110)
A, Vicksburg.
Q. Did you purchase - repurchase tickets in. Memphis, Tennes
see?
A. Yes, sir. When I got to Meuphis early that morning of
the 1st, I went to the ticket agent and asked him what
time could I get a bus by way of Jackson, Mississippi,
to Vicksburg, Mississippi. He said__" About ten minutes
from now, one leaves about ten minutes to eight o1 clock."
Q. In the morning or evening?
A. A.M., I'm going to say. Give me time.
Q. All right.
A. This was eight o'clock A.M. I then give him the tickets
that we had and. he re-issued them, with the instruction
that I would have to have a reserved seat on this par
ticular bus. These reserved seats would cost me one
dollar extra. I would like you to know there were
three of us riding together, and I bought the three
tickets and paid the extra three dollars for the re
served slips. Getting on this bus, ten minutes later,
I gave the bus driver the tickets. There were a hostess
standing inside the door that reached for the reserved
slips to usher us to our seats. Having an armful of
packages in my arm, I gave the other two — I gave the
three tickets and let the other two go on first.
BY MR. O'MARA: We object to any testimony on the part
of this witness with regard to any occurrence or inci-
331
(R-1110)
dent that took place In the State of Tennessee or out
side the State of Mississippi.
(R-llll)
BY MR. BELL: This passenger, the testimony indicates,
had tickets that would take her to Vicksburg, Missis
sippi, on the defendant's bus and this incident occurred
to her during the time after she had purchased these
tickets for this destination. For this reason, we feel
it is relevant.
BY- JUDGE RIVES: We'll let the ruling go with the case.
Q, You were indicating you had an armful of packages and had
let the other two persons go on on the bus. Continue
your story.
A. Yes, sir. Finding a place overhead — It was rather
crowded and I was trying to place the packages overhead,
I didn't notice the number where the other two passen
gers was being carried, but this lady that was with my
daughter said to me, said, "Mrs. Cosey, don’t we have
19j 20 and 21 seat numbers?" I said, "Oh, yes. The
hostess has the slips, and I ’m quite sure she sees the
number on them." She said, "You are going to sit back
here or get off." By that time I looked at her and
said, "Amice, don’t argue with the owner of this bus.
Evidently she has bought Continental out."
Q* Well, wait, now. I ’m a little confused. Were the seats
for which you had reservations located toward the front
of the bus?
332
(R-llll)
A. Yes, they were, —
Q. Just a minute. You can be just a little softer perhaps.
(R-1112)
BY JUDGE RYVES: Don't lead her.
Q. Where were you seated by the hostess?
A. In the rear of the last seat, you might say. The one
next to the restroom.
Q. All right. I understand. Continue with your story.
A. When I told her, I said, "I have given you all the credit
I could give you when I said that you are owner of the
Continental Trailways." She said, "I own this parti
I'm running this part where I am." I said, "I'm not
arguing because I'm not looking for trouble, and just
sit wherever she tells us to sit."
Q. Where did you sit during your trip to Vicksburg?
A. I sat on the last seat on the bus, the one next to the
restroom.
Q. Did the other two persons for whom you had purchased tic
kets, — Where did they sit?
A. We all sat back there.
Q. After you arrived at your destination, did you make a
report or complaint about this incident to any official
of the Trailways line?
A* No. i tell you exactly what I did. I was sick, because,
really, it made me nervous because I was afraid and I
didn't know what might happen on this particular bus
with this misunderstanding coming up as it did. So I
333
(R-1112)
went straight home and when I was better the next day,
felt better, I went straight to my lawyer and I carried
(R-1113)
these slips to him and I —
Q. These slips? Are they jour receipts from the tickets?
A. From our reserved seats. These slips were the reserved
seats tickets.
Q. I see. And what happened after you took those toyour
lawyer?
A. He wrote the company. He did all the contacting in a way
to the cotip any, and they made a settlement of some kind
with it.
Q. I see.
BY MR. SHANDS: If the Court please, it is understood
we have a running objection to all of this?
BY MR. BEIL: Weld like to have these marked for
exhibits.
BY MR, SHANDS: Have you offered them?
BY MR, BELL: Not as yet.
(Same marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit #30 for Identification.)
Q* I show you Plaintiffs' Exhibit for Identification Number
30 and ask you do you recognize them. Can you make it
out?
A* Yes.
Q* What are they?
A* These are the same — These are the same things they gave
(R-1113)
us as reserved tickets.
Q. For your reserved seats?
A. Yes.
>1114)
i What are these
33*
BY I®. CLARK: Counsel can identify this instrument as
to whether the witness recognizes it, but he is putting
into the record what they contain, and he hasn't offered
it. We want to make an objection when he offers them
in evidence.
BY JUDGE RXVES: Let her describe what they are first.
BY MR. CLARK: He is going beyond the necessary means
of identification and necessarily getting the contents
into the record indirectly.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Overrule the objection.
Q. Will you complete your identification?
A. I said these were the slips from our tickets.
BY MR. BELL: We would like to offer as Plaintiffs'
Exhibit Number 30 Into evidence these ticket stubs and
reserved seat coupons.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Those have been shown to opposing coun
sel?
BY MR. BELL: Shown to opposing counsel and identified
by the witness.
BY MR, CLARK: On behalf of the Attorney General of the
State of Mississippi, we object to all three of these
335
(R-1114)
slips which have been identified as Plaintiffs1 Exhibit
50 on the ground they show on their face they were issued
in the State of Tennessee. They are clearly immaterial
(R-1115)
to any issue in this lawsuit as to any defendant.
BY JUDGE HIVES; Carry the ruling with the case.
(Plaintiffs* Exhibit 30 for Identification received in evi
dence. This exhibit is not copied here because upon order of
the Court all original exhibits are sent up with the mimeo
graphed record.)
BY MR. BELL: We have no further questions.
BY JUDGE RIVES; You may cross examine,
(Wo cross examination)
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may come down and be excused.
(Witness excused)
ABUEW C. THOMPSON, called as a witness and having been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MOTLEY;
Q* Hease state your full name.
A. Allen C. Thompson.
Q* Are you the mayor of the City of Jackson?
Yes.
Q. How long have you been mayor of the City of Jackson?
A* Over twelve and a half years.
Are you a lawyer, Mayor Thompson?
336
(R-1115)
A. Yes.
Q. Does the City of Jackson have any ordinances requiring
segregation on common carriers and in waiting rooms in
the City of Jackson?
BY MR. WATKINS: We object to the question "requiring
(R-1116)
segregation.11 The ordinances speak for themselves and
are the best evidence, and that is a conclusion for this
Court to draw, not for the witness.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Do you have the particular ordinances?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Yes, sir.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Show him the ordinances and ask him if
those are the ordinances of the City of Jackson.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: May I have it marked for identification?
(Same was marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 31 for Identification)
BY JUDGE RIVES: As long as it is properly certified,
it is admissible in evidence without having the witness
identify it. You may offer it in evidence.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: We'd like to offer it in evidence.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 31 for Identification received in evi
dence. This exhibit is not copied here because upon order
of the Court all original exhibits are sent up with the
mimeographed record.)
E&d I ask you how long you had been mayor?
A* Yes.
357
(R-1116)
Q. What did you say?
A. Over twelve and a half years.
Q. Let me show you this ordinance of the City of Jackson
and ask you if you recall that.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall when that was passed, as indicated?
A. X think it is indicated there it was 1956. Thatrs what I
was looking for, "regular meeting on January 12, 1956."
(R-1117)
Could I see that one second, please, Counsel?
Q, Yes, sure.
BY THE WITNESS: I'd like to, if I could, I'd like to
read the first three paragraphs of the preamble of
this, if I have Your Honors' — based on the reasoning
for such an ordinance.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Do you have an extra copy of the ordi
nance?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Yes, sir. We do have.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Let the Court see it.
(Counsel hands to Court)
BY JUDGE RIVES: The Court has read the entire ordinance.
If you want to, you can read the entire ordinance.
BY THE WITNESS: No, sir, I just wanted Your Honors —
called to your attention the first three paragraphs,
because it is the basis of our whole action.
BY MR. CLARK: We object to the mayor's testimony as to
the basis of the action. The ordinance speaks for it-
338
(R-1117)
self, and we ask that his response to that colloquy be
tween the Court and witness be striken.
BY JUDGE CLAYTON: He simply stated the preamble re
flected the reason or basis for it.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We overrule the objection.
Q. Are you considered the chief law enforcement officer of
the City of Jackson?
Q. Would you tell us what you understand the policy of the
city is with respect t o ----I withdraw that.
I wanted to rephrase my question before.
A. Your question whether I'm considered the chief law en
forcement officer? Of course, I'm the chief law enforce
ment officer, but as Your Honors know, the police depart
ment does the work and the law enforcement after confer
ences with me and discussions.
Q. Would you tell us what you understand the policy of the
City of Jackson to be, the racial policy of the City of
Jackson, with respect to public transportation facili
ties.
BY MR. SHANBS: We object to that. First, a conclusion;
second, she has introduced an ordinance that speaks for
itself, and for this man to testify to that would be
the first time I have ever known that such has been
permitted over objection. And it is his opinion.
A. Yes.
(R-1118)
339
(R-1118)
BY JUDGE RIVES: Carry the ruling with the case.
BY MR. SHARDS: May I add an additional ground to that?
The City can speak only through its minutes. This
would he a private, individual opinion, conclusion of
this witness. An ordinance has been introduced and
speaks for itself. This man can neither add to nor
detract from the terms of that ordinance, and to permit
him to do this would be to substitute private, personal
opinion, which we think the Court should not allow.
(R-1119)
BY JUDGE RIVES: We will carry the ruling with the case.
BY MR. O'MARA: ©10 defendants Continental Southern and
Greyhound Bus Company object to that question for the
reason, first, it calls for an opinion on the part of
the witness; next, it makes no difference what the
opinion of the witness might be. He or the city cer
tainly does not have the right to set any rules or
regulations for these two carriers; that any action on
the part of the city with reference thereto could only
be shorn through either the minutes of the city or
ordinances passed and adopted by the city; and that
regardless of that, his opinion would not be effective
or have any control or bearing on the policies of these
two carriers.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We will carry the ruling with the case.
(The last question was read by the reporter.)
3^0
(R-1119)
BY JUDGE RIVES: Upon reconsideration, the Court thinks
the policy of the city is only e:xpressed in its written
ordinances, and we will have to sustain the objection.
BY MRS, MOTLEY: We'd like to speak on that if we can.
As Your Honors recall, the Complaint alleges that there
are state statutes requiring racial segregation. The
Complaint alleges that there is a city ordinance re-
quirlng racial segregation. Then, thirdly, the Com
plaint alleges that there is a policy, custom and usage
of enforcing racial segregation, which is quite apart
(R-1120)
from any ordinance or written statute. And this is what
we were trying to bring out. We are trying to prove the
allegations of the Complaint. And, as we see it, this
is one of the essential allegations of the Complaint.
Now the question is directed to the mayor of the City
of Jackson, who has testified that he is the chief law
enforcement officer, and as mayor and chief law enforce
ment officer, we think it proper to direct to him a
question as to what he understands. And I said "what
you understand the policy of the city to be." And we
say that policy of the city can have, quite apart from
any statute, a policy, custom and usage of enforcing
racial segregation.
BY MR. WATKINS: May I respond to that?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, sir.
BY MR, WATKINS: First, I want to say that all three of
34l
(R-1120)
the plaintiffs in this action have testified specifi
cally the police, practice, custom and usage as used in
this Complaint referred only to the policy, practice,
custom and usage as defined in the statutes attacked
and the ordinance. Second, counsel is now attempting
to roam out into a factual field, which is independent
of and has nothing to do with her attack on the consti
tutionality of any statute and which I again respectfully
submit is beyond the jurisdiction of this Court.
BY MR. SHANDS: May I respond to counsel for plaintiffs?
BY JUDGE RIVES; Yes. We are going to take a short
(R-1121)
recess and consider this. You may say anything further
you like.
BY MR. SHARDS: I say to the Court there is no authority
in these United States that the plaintiff can show to
justify her position where there has been an objection
raised. Furthermore, if the Court will examine the
deposition of Bailey, page 19, — and they stick out in
the others — that is what they, the plaintiffs in this
lawsuit — They have something to do with this. And if
that Is what they are complaining of, counsel, we think,
cannot go beyond. Now then, to permit this case to con
tain any such statements as that, I think, in my humble
judgment, where objection has been made, that the Rule
that has no exception as far as I know will be complete
ly overridden. And we strongly stand on that position.
3^2
(R-1121)
BY JUDGE RIVES: If there is nothing further, the Court
will take a short recess.
(Whereupon the court was recessed.)
After Recess
BY JUDGE RIVES: The Court lias made an effort to make
its rulings on interlocutory questions without disagree
ment. However, this question is one on which the Court
is divided. The majority of the Court thinks that the
objection to this question should be sustained, but with
instructions to counsel that you may Inquire as to the
actions of the mayor pursuant to the statute or pursuant
(R-1122)
to the city ordinance, or pursuant to any state statute,
the state statutes being part of the law of the City
of Jackson, but you have to prove the policy by the
actual action and conduct of the mayor and other city
officers. I myself am of the opinion that the question
is proper and that as to the mayor and the governing
body of the city, the policy of the city may be proved,
whether pursuant to or in conformity to statutes or
ordinances or in conflict with them as done by offi
cials of the city. I do dissent to this ruling, but
the ob.iectlonto the question is sustained.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: In that case, we would like to invoke
the provisions of Rule 43-c and make a specific offer of
what we intend to prove by this witness and have the
answer recorded.
3^3
(R-1122)
BY JUDGE RIVES: Do you call the mayor as your witness?
BY M S . MOTLEY: Yes, sir. He is an adverse party, and
under Rule 4-3-c we can examine him, cross examine him,
lead him and so forth, and under "c" if the Court sus
tains the objection, we have the right to have —
BY M . W.AIKINS: What does Paragraph V say?
BY JUDGE CMYTON; Wait just a minute.
EY JUDGE MIZE: Read Paragraph "c".
BY MS. MOTLEY; It provides as follows; "In an action
tried by a jury if an objection to a question propounded
to a witness is sustained by the Court, the examining
attorney may make a specific offer of what he expects
(R-1123)
to prove by the answer of the witness. The Court may
require the offer to be made out of the hearing of the
jury. The Court may add such other or further state
ments as clearly shows the character of the evidence,
the form in which it was offered, the objection made,
and the ruling thereon. In actions tried without a
jury, the same procedure may be followed except that
the Court upon request shall take and report the evi
dence in full unless it clearly appears that the evi
dence is not admissible on any ground or that the wit
ness is privileged."
BY JUDGE MIZE: Let me see those rules a moment. That
is true of the witness on direct examination. What I
was concerned about is on cross examination of a witness.
(R-1123)
And I construe this to be cross examination of this
witness under the rule. So, just a moment.
BY MR. ̂SHARDS: May we be heard on that?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, sir.
BY MR. SHARDS: We object to that for several reasons:
First, we think it is out side of the rule normally
permitting that, because the last punctuated clause of
the rule is "unless it appears that the evidence is not
admissible for any purpose," Second, it is our position
that this evidence is not admissible, cannot serve any
purpose whatever in this suit.
BY JUDGE RIVES: — If I may interrupt, this applies to
the exception. The last sentence says in an action
"without a jury, the same procedure may be followed
(R-1124)
except that the Court upon request shall take and report
the evidence in full.." and then, "..unless it clearly
appears that the evidence is not admissible on any ground
or that the evidence is privileged."
Is It your contention that we can take and report this
evidence in full?
BY MR. SHARDS: No, sir. It is our position that you
shan't take it at all, and neither should the Court
permit her to state it.
BY JUDGE RIVES: We would overrule the objection unless
it applies to the exception and not to the main part of
the rule.
345
(R-1124)
BY MR, SHANDS: I think the situation here comes
clearly and unequivocally within the "unless." It is
my understanding of the law in Mississippi that when I
call a person as an adverse witness I am bound by what
that witness said but I can contradict that witness.
Now, it is now twenty minutes to twelve, and I believe
the statement I have made as to what the rule in
Mississippi is, is the law. I would like to have an
opportunity, if there be any question in the minds of
the Court, that this request of the plaintiff should be
granted, we would like to have the opportunity to recess
here until after lunch and give us an opportunity to do
some checking, because we think this is a very vital
point at this stage of this trial.
BY JUDGE CLAYTON: Mr. Shands, it is my view and I say,
(R-1125)
since it probably is decisive on this question, whatever
the rules of evidence are in the State of Mississippi,
they have no application in this since It is a federal
action. Under those circumstances, I do not think any
good purpose would be served by the Court's examination
of Mississippi cases, and I am unable to say, in view
of Judge Rivers dissent, that it clearly appears that
the evidence is not admissible on any ground. Person
ally, I think It is not, but in deference to his long
experience on the bench and the expression of his
views, I am unable to say that it clearly appears the
346
(R-1125)
evidence is not admissible. Therefore, my view is that
counsel has the right to make the record on this point
in full by examination of the witness. The purpose of
this provision in the rule, as I understand it, is to
avoid, if the case reaches the Supreme Court, having to
reconvene the three-judge court to take further evidence.
I think personally, in my view, the Court is probably
in accord on what should be done in this.
BY JUDGE MIZE: My view is that I concur with Judge
Clayton, except I am of the opinion that Paragraph "c11
has no application to Paragraph "b". Paragraph "b" is
a scope of examination and cross examination, and
cross examination to a party is different to any other
line of interrogation because it is limited there when
it calls an adverse party, or a managing officer, and
so forth, and interrogate him by leading questions and
(R-1126)
contradict him and impeach him in all respects as if he
had been called by the adverse party, and the witness
thus called may be contradicted and impeached by and
on behalf of the adverse party also and may be cross
examined by the adverse party only upon subject matter
of the examination in chief. So I think Paragraph "c"
which follows is applicable to witnesses that are
introduced on direct examination, and in that event
the excluded evidence is obligatory on the opposing
party to state what he proposes to show; but on cross
547
(R-1126)
examination of a party I don't think that is necessary.
I am doubtful, at least, but I am going along with the
majority of the Court on that feature and state ray
position, which is that rather than have her state what
she proposes to show by this witness, the better policy
and procedure would be to go ahead with the cross exami
nation which, by a majority of the Court, is regarded
as incompetent. But I will go along with Judge Clayton,
and I think it is incompetent but not so clearly so,
particularly in view of Judge Rive's dissent that the
Court would not permit it to be done at all. So ray
thought is that the better procedure would be that the
majority of the Court hold that it is incompetent, but
make the record by cross examination of the witness and
let him answer.
BY MR. SHARDS: May we have an exception?
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may have an exception.
(R-1127)
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may proceed then to make your re
cord. It is understood this testimony is entered for
the purpose of making the record, but is not admitted
in evidence.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Yes, sir.
(Mrs. Motley continues examination of Mr. Thompson:)
Q. Do you recall the question?
A* If you will have it read —
If it is all right I will repeat the question, because the
348
(R-1127)
reporter said It would take a while to find it.
State your understanding of the racial policy of the
City of Jackson with respect to transportation facilities
in the City of Jackson.
A. % understanding of the racial policy of the City of Jack-
son with respect to public transportation. As mentioned,
I have been mayor for over twelve and a half years of a
city of around 150,000 and for a while almost half
colored and half white. At the present time that ratio
is approximately 65 to 35 percent. It has been the
policy of mine as chief law enforcement officer, and the
members of the city council and the police department
and of the people of Jackson, to maintain what has
worked over the last hundred years to bring happiness
and peace and prosperity to everyone within our city.
That has been done by a separation of the races, not
segregation. We never refer to it as segregation. Now,
(R-1128)
of course, you know and I know the state law upon which
the city ordinance was patterned in 1956, with the pre
amble put in as ours, showing why — to maintain peace
and order and to keep down disturbances. Since I have
been mayor I do not recall one incident where there has
been an arrest under this ordinance or any segregation
ordinance. We have at all times tried to maintain peace
and keep down disturbances. That is the policy. Our
policy calls for a great deal of give and take. It is
3^9
(R-1128)
agreeable to both the white and the colored. For in
stance, in this very room this morning one of our fine
colored citizens, a preacher, approached me outside and
said, "We appreciate what you are doing in your policy;
we appreciate the way you are handling this matter be
cause we are getting along so well." And then wound up
by asking me for a contribution to his church, which I
will give. So you see that laws can come and laws can
go and laws can be changed, but the policy adopted here
is to maintain happiness and contentment between the
races, within the law, and at the same time giving the
benefit of the great advantage over the years of living
together in peace and quiet.
Q. Does this ordinance accurately reflect this policy, In
effect, which you have just stated?
BY MR. SHARDS: Is she still proceeding under ^J-c, or
is this part over?
BY JUDGE RIVES: We continue under 43-c until announced
(R-1128a)
otherwise. This is not admitted in evidence until it
is announced otherwise.
BY MR. SHARDS: Before it could be, there would be an
opportunity to make proper objection to leading or other'
wise,
BY JUDGE RIVES: That is correct. This testimony is
simply admitted to make her record in this case,
BY MR. SHARDS: Will she let opposing counsel know when
350
(R-1128a )
she ceases to operate under 43-c?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Yes, sir, I will.
A. You asked the question, does this ordinance set out the
policy?
0. Which you have just stated. Does that reflect the policy?
A. I think so. Of course, I have learned a lot every year
that I have been mayor. This was 1956, about six years
after I took office, and you know that probably I could
do things better today than I could at that time. How
ever, as Your Honors have read it, you read the last
paragraph there, it says, "The Council of the said City
of Jackson owes the duty to its citizens, regardless of
race, color, creed or station in life, to maintain good
order and to prevent breaches of the peace, and thereby
to promote the health and general welfare of all its
citizens.." and then of course we adopted the state ordi
nance in this.
I would like to understand your answer. Your answer is
that this ordinance does reflect in effect the policy
(R-1129)
which you have just stated?
A. In line with my statement of policy, in that, as you know,
Counsel, there can be ordinances and there can be laws,
but actual operation, actual interpretation, and the
actual performance under those laws are the controlling
thing. The way we have tried to handle a matter that
has been very difficult and very delicate, particularly
351
(R-1129)
duping the last few months where many outside agitators
have come in to try to disturb our peaceful relations.
Q. What I am getting at, Mayor Thompson, is this: If there
is any deviation from the policy which you have stated
in that ordinance, I would like you to point it out; but
if that ordinance reflects in effect the policy state
ment which you have made, I would like for you to say so.
A. The ordinance reflects the law, as is state law. The pre
amble reflects our policy and our effort to make a law
work where, as one of the visiting Episcopal ministers
the other day said, "The whole matter of racial under
standing is, as in New York, on a powder keg." And he
said this in response to a question I asked him when he
came here. I said, "What would have happened if two or
three people had been killed by your coming?" He said,
"It would have been worthwhile." So you can see the
difficulties, Yours Honors, that a mayor of a city
operates under with his people, trying to maintain order
and peace and quiet under laws which, of course, we know
are sincere by those who passed them.
(R-U30)
Now, apart from the preamble, does the ordinance itself,
the provisions thereof, accurately reflect the policy
of the city as you have stated it before?
A* in line with my statement of policy and actual operation.
It does reflect it?
A* In line with my explanation.
352
(H-1130)
Q. Well, Mayor Thompson, I would like you to answer my ques
tion yes or no and then explain it if you want to. Does
the body of the ordinance, apart from the preamble, re
flect the policy of the City of Jackson as you have
stated it?
The policy of the City of Jackson is certainly adopted in
the ordinance, which is based on state law, that is
taken from state law, and is based on exactly what I
have said, the matter of separation of the races.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: I would like to announce we have con
cluded that part of the examination which was under the
provisions of Rule 43-c.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Very well. Resume your examination
then. Do you have any other questions?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Yes, I have another question.
Q. Mayor Thompson, as chief law enforcement officer of the
City of Jackson, have you given to the police department
any instructions with respect to the enforcement of this
ordinance?
A. My instructions to the police department, Counsel, are to
(R-1131)this effect: To maintain peace and order in this city.
Now, when this difficulty came some months ago, the
Attorney General of the United States, Honorable Robert
Kennedy, called me personally and talked to me to de
cide whether he would send marshals into Mississippi and
353
(R-1131)
to Jackson to maintain law and order. I had my police
committee there headed by the chief and assistant chief
and others who helped to set the actual policy into
working, and I told them - rather, while the Attorney
General was listening, that the only instruction that I
gave to Chief Rayfield, Chief pierce and the police
department was to maintain law and order, peace and
quiet within the law, and that that is what we intended
to do, and although he did not probably agree with any
thing we actually did, — I'm not committing him for
that — but he did hear and he did agree that our pro
mise to him was sufficient. But that Is only by way of
saying that I have never instructed the police depart
ment to arrest anyone. I have instructed them to do
what was necessary under any particular case at any
particular time to maintain law and order.
Q. And those instructions were pursuant to the statute?
A. Pursuant to that statute and pursuant to every other sta
tute and every other matter that has come before us in
that connection.
Q» Excuse me. I meant to say pursuant to th is ordinance.
Your Instructions were pursuant to th is ordinance?
A. That was included in a general Instruction.
(R-U32)
Q* To the police?
A. To maintain law and order.
Q* Pursuant to th is ordinance?
354
(R-3LX32)
A. That was just a part of the whole matter, Counsel. It is
just a part of maintaining law and order, and statutes
along that line.
Q. In other words, the ordinance was taken into consideration
when you instructed the police? Is that right?
A. Not particularly. Just to maintain law and order.
Q, Did you give the police any instructions with respect to
the enforcement of that ordinance?
A, Could I finish that one statement? — In fact, I had for-
gotten that such an ordinance existed until I was shorn
at this hearing.
Q. Let me ask you this: Have you given the police any in
structions with respect to action they should take when
a Negro enters a white waiting room in the city of
Jackson?
A, None whatsoever.
Q. Have you given the police any instructions as to the
action they should take when a white person enters a
colored waiting room?
A. None, other than, as I mentioned before, to be sure that
under the conditions existing that the officer involved
or the officer there would see that there was no dis
turbance of any kind, which of course runs along with
the basis of our whole maintaining of law and order.
Did you give him any instructions as to what he should do
(R-1133)
in case there was a disturbance?
355
(R-1133)
A. To do what would be necessary to prevent an occurrence.
Now, to show you that it’s general, you take the matter
of the separation of the races. This is interesting.
— I don’t want to burden you with it, because it’s
about dinnertime, but people over the country have
remarked about "There is no separation of the races in
the zoo." In other words, you go out there, it’s just
customs and traditions that have built up over the
years, but at one time there was an effort made to
cause trouble there, not just for separation, but just
to go out and cause trouble. And the police had to go
out there and keep down disturbance of the peace, along
the same line as they would anywhere else.
Q. Are you suggesting you have no objection to Negroes
going into the white waiting rooms in Jackson?
A. It would depend completely upon the conditions existing
at that time under the existing laws.
Q. What conditions are you referring to?
A. As long as there is peace and quiet and no evidence of
any disturbance of the peace.
Q. But you don’t have any objection?
A. Under the law there is no objection, under the law.
Q* But this ordinance prevents the Negro from going in there,
doesn’t it?
MR. SHANDS: We object now to his interpretation of
what the law does and doesn’t do.
356
(r-1134)
BY JUDGE RIVES; I think the ordinance speaks for it
self. Objection sustained.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: I think that is all the questions of
this witness.
BY JUDGE RIVES; We111 recess for lunch and come back
at 1 :50.
(Whereupon the Court recessed until 1:50 P.M,)
After Recess
EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q. To your knowledge, has any arrest been made in the City of
Jackson under the ordinance introduced in evidence in
this case since its adoption?
A. No, sir.
Q. To your knowledge has any arrest been made under any of
the segregation statutes, the constitutionality of which
are attacked by the Complaint in this case?
A. No.
EXAMINATION
BY MR. J. WILL YOUNG:
Q* Mayor Thompson, in your official capacity as a mayor,
you are familiar with corporate structure of Jackson
City Lines, are you not?
A* Yes, sir.
Q* Is that a Mississippi corporation?
357
(R-1135)
A, Yes, sir.
Q. Operating only in Jackson?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does that corporation operate in the City of Jackson under
a franchise granted by the City of Jackson?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does the city council exercise control over the rates and
policies of the company insofar as its operations are
concerned in Jackson?
A. Over the rates, but you have the authority under your
franchise to do what you are authorized under your fran
chise.
Q* But the council fixes the rates?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know when that franchise expires?
A. I think about two or three years.
BY MR. YOUNG: That is all.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Any further cross examination of this
witness? Any redirect?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: No, sir.
BY JUDGE RIVES: (to witness) You may be excused.
BY I©. O ’MARA: I would like to have the privilege of
recalling the witness Johnny Frazier for further cross
examination prior to the time he is excused as a witness.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Have you kept Johnny Frazier in the
witness room?
558
(R-1155)
BY MRS. MOTLEYS Yes, sir.
(Witness excused)
(R-1156)
WM, D, RAYFIELD, a defendant, called as a witness and having
been duly sworn, testified as follows:
EXAMINATION
EY MRS. MOTLEY:
Q. Please state your full name.
A. William D, Rayfield.
Q» What is your position?
A. Chief of Police, City of Jackson.
Q. How long have you been the chief of police?
A. Since January, 1952.
Q. Have you ever visited the terminal of the Illinois Cen
tral in the City of Jackson?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Are there any signs at that terminal?
A. Yes, they have signs.
Q* What do the signs say?
A. I don’t remember the exact wording, but they are direct
ing people to a white room, waiting facilities, and a
waiting facilities room for Negro people.
0* Does it say pursuant to "order of the police department"?
A< I think it says "By order of the police."
Q* Now, pursuant to what authority did the police put that
sign there?
A- The police didn’t actually put the sign there, but the
359
(R-1136)
sign was put there at my direction. I do not know the
exact date but as best of my recollection it was the
first part of 1956.
{j y. pursuant to what authority did you put that sign there
or direct it to be put there?
A. To direct the races to their respective waiting room
facilities and also to assist the police department in
maintaining peace and order.
Q. Do you understand what I mean by "pursuant to what autho
rity"? What law or ordinance? By that I mean —
A, Well, it was put there pursuant to the city ordinance
that was mentioned this morning.
BT MR. CLARK: We think that calls for a legal conclu
sion on the part of the witness. He has testified to
what he did in some instances, and I think he can testi
fy to what else he did, but as to what authority he used
is a legal question.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Overrule that objection.
I believe you answered the question that you put it
there pursuant to this city ordinance that was referred
to this morning?
A- That's right.
^ Have you ever visited the Greyhound bus depot in the City
of Jackson?
A* Yes, l have.
360
(R-1137)
Q. Are there similar signs at that depot?
A. Yes, they are similar.
Q. Were they put there about the same time as the signs at
the Illinois Central?
A. Yes, I fm sure they were about the same time.
Q. Pursuant to the same ordinance?
(R-1138)
A. That is correct.
Q, Have you ever visited the depot of the Trailway3 or
Continental Southern lines in the City of Jackson?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Are there similar signs at that depot?
A. Yes, there are.
0* Were they put there about the same time?
A. Yes, they were put there at the same time.
Q. Pursuant to the same ordinance?
A. Yes.
Q* Have the police ever arrested anyone, to your knowledge,
for violation of this ordinance?
A- The city ordinance mentioned this morning?
That’s right.
A* Not to my knowledge.
Wave the police ever arrested any Negroes, to your know
ledge, who went into the white waiting room of the Illi
ftois Central in violation of the sign you spoke of
a minute ago?
Wo, l don’t recall.
361
(R-1138)
EX' MR. CLARK; The witness just answered the question
there had not been arrests that were caused from viola
tion of the ordinance and he testified the sign was
put there because of the ordinance, and now she is
asking if they were arrested because of the sign. I
say that the testimony would be one and the same thing,
(R-1139)
and I object to the way the question is phrased. I
think it is leading to an entrapment of the witness.
BY JUDGE RTVES: We think the objection should be over
ruled.
Q. You may answer the question.
A. Would you repeat that?
BY MR. WATKINS; I think he has already answered.
(The last question and answer were read)
Q. Do you understand the question?
A. Yes. I answered it. I said no.
Q. Have the police ever arrested any Negroes who have gone
into the white waiting room of the Greyhound depot in
violation of the sign you referred to a moment ago in
front of that waiting room?
A. The same answer. No, we have no.
0* Have any Negroes, to your knowledge, been arrested by
the police who went into the white waiting room of the
Trailways bus depot in violation of that sign?
A, No, not to my knowledge.
562
(R-1139)
Q. I want to ask you the same thing with respect to white
persons going into the colored waiting room at the
Illinois Central, Greyhound, or Trailways.
A, The answer is the same. We have not,
Q. Have the police, to your knowledge, arrested any Negroes
who have gone into the white waiting room of the Illi
nois Central at any time within the last six months?
(R-1140)
BY MR. WATKINSi We object to that. That question is
not limited to any statute or ordinance involved or
under attack in this case, and if we are going into any
arrest that has ever been made in any public terminal
of that type in the City of Jackson during any period of
time we are far afield of the issues in this case.
BY JUDGE RXVES: The Court thinks that question is too
broad, "Have they ever made any arrests of Negroes going
into a white waiting room." Not showing the purpose of
the question or anything else, we think the question is
too broad. Sustain the objection on the ground it is
too broad a question.
Q. To your knowledge, have the police made any arrests in
the last six months of Negroes who have gone into the
white waiting room of the Illinois Central under the
provision of Section 2087.5 and 2087.7 of the Mississippi
Code?
BY MR. WATKINS: We object to that for the reason that
363
(R-114-0)
those are two breaches of peace statutes, the constitu
tionality of which are not under attack in the case,
and the question of arrests that may or may not have
been made in or outside the white waiting rooms under
the breach of peace statutes would not be competent in
this case.
BY MR. CLARK: May the Attorney General state a diffe
rent ground of objection? We also object to the ques
tion on the ground it calls for this witness to give an
(R-1141)
oral statement from the stand about a matter which is a
matter of written record in custody and control of the
police department and the City of Jackson and a public
record, and that would constitute the best evidence as
to what action was taken by the police department.
BY JUDGE RIVES: The Court calls attention to the
plaintiffs in the case prayer for an order "to enjoin
them from continuing to enforce certain statutes of
the State of Mississippi requiring racial segregation on
common carriers, in waiting rooms used by common car
riers, and rest room facilities maintained by common
carriers, i.e. Title 11, Sections 2351...” and in
addition all those expressly requiring that. And then
it says, ".. and any other statute of the State of
Mississippi requiring or permitting such segregation."
I am of the opinion the evidence is competent if she
can show that segregation is enforced by means of the
364
(R-1141)
breach of peace statutes or other statutes.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: I ’d like to also call Your Honors’
attention to Paragraph 15 of that Amended Complaint
which says, "Plaintiffs allege that the defendants, and
each of them, acting under color of the laws of the
State of Mississippi, referred to herein, and under
color of Sections 2087.5, 208?.7, and 2089.5 of the
Mississippi Code Annotated (1942) as amended in i960,
and under color of the ordinance of the Cityof Jackson
..." and so forth. So that those statutes just men-
(R-1142)
tioned are specifically referred to in Paragraph 15 of
the Complaint, and this is a defendant in the case.
BY MR. WiffiOTS: If that type of question is going to be
permitted, It should first be shown by this witness he
was present at one or more such arrests and he should
be questioned about those at which he was present. To
call on him for a blanket opinion covering a number of
arrests where the circumstances might have been diffe
rent in each instance, I think Is improper. She hasn’t
laid a predicate to show he was present.
BY JUDGE RIVES : If he doesn’t know, he can testify he
doesn’t. He is the chief of police and he may know
what officers have done even though he may not have
been present. It might have been reported to him.
BY MR. WATKINS: Suppose the answer was "Yes, colored
people have been arrested in a certainpublic facility
565
(R-1142)
that is designated as white." What light would that
throw on the issues of this case as to whether that
was a justifiable breach of the peace arrest or whether
it was an effort to preserve separation of the races
or segregation, unless the witness has some personal
knowledge of the circumstances surrounding that arrest,
I don't see the materiality of it.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Carry the ruling along with the case.
BY MR. CLARK: Will the Court permit the record to show
that the Attorney General also objects to the question?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes. We carry the ruling with the casa
(R-1143)
(The last question and answer were read,)
BY MR. CLARK: We further object on behalf of the
Attorney General to the form of the question unless the
witness knows the details of the section number that
counsel has just read to him.
BY JUDGE RIVES: If the witness doesn't know, he can
certainly say so. We carry the ruling with the case.
A. 1*11 answer your question by saying those numbers you re
fer to, I recognize those numbers as being numbers that
identify some of the statutes, but what the contents
of that particular statute is, I'm not an attorney an_
do not know.
Q. Would you like to look at it?
A. I would, yes.
366
(R-1143)
Q. This is Section 2087.5 right here. (Hands to witness)
BY 3®. SHARDS: May the record show this additional ob
jection on the part of the Attorney General? If there
be a written record bearing upon or affecting the answer
either way, no or yes, which could be given to this
question, the Court should first require counsel to
determine if there be a written record. If there then
be a written record, we submit that the record Itself
is the only evidence and not this gentleman's opinion.
BY JUDGE RIVES: You may cross examine him further on
that.
(R-1144)
Q. Now, having read, the statute and refreshed your memory,
can you tell us whether the police have arrested any
Negroes that have gone into white waiting rooms of the
Illinois Central under that statute?
A. Not to my certain knowledge. I was not present. Not at
the Illinois Central.
Q. Have any officers under your jurisdiction reported to you
that Negroes had gone into the white waiting room of the
Illinois Central and had been arrested by them pursuant
to that statute?
BY MR. CLARK: The Attorney General objects on the
ground this is purest and rankest hearsay.
BY JUDGE RIVES: The Attorney General is not shown to
have any connection with this.
(R-1144)
367
BY MR. CLARK: Then it is excluded?
BY JUDGE RIVES: On the part of the Attorney General
you have a running objection and it Is excluded as to the
Attorney General,
BY MR. WATKINS: And we have a running objection to this
line of questioning?
BY JUDGE RIVES: Yes, you have a running objection to
this line of questioning.
Q. You may proceed.
A. Yes, officers in my department have reported to me that
there have been arrests made at the Illinois Central
Railroad,
i /(R-1145)
\ /Q. Of Negroes in the white waiting room?
A. Negroes and whites.
Q. Negroes and whites. All right.
BY MR, CLARK: I didn’t hear the answer.
BY WITNESS: I said yes, Negroes and whites.
Q. Let’s go to the colored waiting room of the Illinois
Central. Have any police officers under your jurisdic
tion reported to you that Negroes and whites or Negroes
or whites have been arrested in the colored waiting
room of the Illinois Central?
A. Yes, they have reported it to me.
Q. Let’s go to the Greyhound bus terminal, and directing
368
(R-1145)
your attention to the white waiting room of the Grey
hound terminal, have any police under your jurisdiction
reported to you that Negroes have been arrested or
Negroes and whites have been arrested in the white
waiting room there?
A. Yes, they have.
Q. Directing your attention to the colored waiting room of
the Greyhound, have any police under your jurisdiction
reported to you that Negroes or Negroes and whites have
been arrested in the white waiting room there?
A. Yes, they have.
Q. Now, let’s go to the ‘̂railways bus depot, and directing
your attention to the white waiting room there, have the
(33-1146)
police under your jurisdiction reported to you that
Negroes or Negroes and whites have been arrested in
the colored waiting room there?
A. Yes, they have.
Q. And directing your attention now to the white waiting
room, have the police under your jurisdiction reported
to you that Negroes or Negroes and whites have been
arrested in the white waiting room there?
A. Yes, they have.
Q. Have you as the chief of police given the police under
your jurisdiction any instructions with respect to what
they should do when Negroes go into a white waiting
room at a terminal or depot?
369
(R-1146)
A. I gave the police officers instructions to arrest those
who violate the law, and it is left up to their discre
tion. I have not given them a specific order to arrest
or not to arrest anyone.
Q. Those who violate which law?
A. Any law.
Q. I ’m talking now about Negroes who go into white waiting
rooms.
A, No, I have not given them specific instructions to arrest
them.
Q. Now, have you given the police any instructions as to
what they are to do by way of arresting people who
attempt to interfere with Negroes who go into white
waiting rooms?
A. I have not given them any instructions.
Q. Have there been any disturbances or disorder to your know-
(R-1147)
ledge in the last six months in the terminal of the
Illinois Central here in the City of Jackson?
A. No, not in the terminal.
Q. Have there been any disturbances or disorders to your
knowledge in the Greyhound terminal here in the City of
Jackson?
A. Not In the Greyhound.
Q. Has there been any disorder or disturbance to your know
ledge in the last six months in the Trailways bus depot
here in the City of Jackson?
570
(R -1147)
A. Well, It was a disorder.
Q. What was that?
A. At the Trailways bus station.
Q. What was that?
A. On the afternoon when the first people arrived who are
commonly referred to as Freedom Riders, there was con
gregations of people all around in that vicinity.
Q. Were you present?
A. I was present on that occasion.
Q. What happened?
A. People were in parked automobiles all along the street.
Now, that is not unusual, but on this particular after
noon there was men all together sitting in the cars, and
you could tell from their expressions that they didn’t
have a friendly attitude toward a situation.
Q. Toward whom?
A. Well, toward these people who were publicized as coming
(R-1148)
in here whom we refer to as Freedom Riders.
Q. Were they arrested?
A. They didn’t do anything. They sat out on the street,
didn’t get out of the cars. There was quite a few peo
ple congregated around the bus station, and we asked
those people to move, and they complied. If they had
n ’t, we would have arrested them.
Q. Weren’t they constituting a breach of peace?
A. They moved along when we asked them to.
371
(R-1148)
Q. Were they armed?
A. No, not to my knowledge.
Q. Were they fighting?
A. No.
Q. Were they using abusive language?
A. Yes. I couldn’t tell who they were directing it to,
but there would be several In this group. They were
engaged In a conversation and I couldn’t tell exactly
what their conversation was. I don’t know if they were
using vile or profane language or not because when I
would walk up in the vicinity to try to determine what
was going on, they would quit talking or disburse, and
when we asked them to move on they would move on.
Nothing else happened.
Q. Were they talking loud enough for you to hear?
A. Should I have been in five or ten feet, I would have
heard them, but when I would approach them they would
immediately hush.
(R-1149)
Q. Were they speaking loudly or shouting at the tops of
their voices?
A. No, they weren't shouting. They were talking in a normal
tone of voice.
Q. Has there been any other disorder at Trailways in the
last six months, to your knowledge?
A. Not to my knowledge, no.
Q. Was anyone arrested on that occasion?
372
(R-1149)
A. Yes.
Q. Who was arrested?
A. Well, I don't knowthe names of the people that was
arrested. They were both white people and Negro people.
Q. Where were they arrested?
A. The ones that I observed being arrested was in the west
portion of the Trailways bus terminal.
Q. That one that has the sign in front of it which says
"WHITE WAITING ROOM"?
A. That's the one commonly referred to as the white waiting
room.
Q. They were arrested in there?
A. Yes.
Q. What were they doing?
A. They alighted from the bus, walked into the station.
Some of the people went to the men's restroom, and when
they come back out into the lobby my officers took
charge of the situation there.
Q. What else did these people do?
(R-1150)
A. They did not do anything only answer a lot of questions
from a lot of news people and the other people that
happened to be in the station at that time.
Q. What else did they do?
A. That's all they did.
Q. Were they armed?
A. — Except refused to move when they were asked to.
373
(R-1150)
Q. Were these people armed?
A. Not to ray knowledge.
Q. Were these people speaking In loud and abusive tones?
A. No.
Q. Were they fighting among themselves?
A. No, they were not fighting.
Q. Were they fighting with men in the cars outside or in
the station?
A. I didn’t observe any in any cars, not in the station.
Q. Did they threaten anyone?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q, But they were arrested, you say?
A. That's right.
Q, What were they arrested for?
A. For their presence there under the circumstances could
cause a breach of peace, and a failure to obey a peace
officer when they were asked to move on.
Q, What circumstances were there that could have caused a
breach of the peace?
A. Those people that were around the station, around about,
(R-1151)
Q,. Were they arrested?
A. No, they weren't arrested.
Q. Why weren't they arrested?
A. The simple reason they moved off the premise when we
asked them to.
Q,. Now, did you instruct the police to arrest these people
374
(R-1151)
who were in the white waiting room, these Negroes and
whites?
A. The people that is commonly referred to as the Freedom
Riders?
Q. Yes, that you said came in.
A. No, I didn't instruct them to arrest them.
Q. They did this on their own?
A. I told them to enforce the law.
Q. Did you tell them to arrest any of these men who were
sitting by in cars if they didn't move on?
A. Right.
Q. At the time that these people were arrested in the white
waiting room of the Illinois Central — Was it, that
we were talking about?
A. No. Continental Southern.
Q. Trailways. I'm sorry. At that time were they the only
people in the white waiting room?
A. No, they were not the only people.
Q. Were there other people?
A. Yes.
Q, How many others would you say?
A. It would be roughly an estimate. I would say some eight
(R-1152)
or ten people who had business there. They had pur
chased their ticket, were waiting on a schedule to leave
on the bus.
Q. Were they exhibiting a hostile attitude toward these
375
(R-1152)
people?
A, They resented it, but of course that is purely my opinion.
Q. How do you know they resented it?
A. Well, the attitude they took. The way they stared at
them and followed them around.
Q. Did they threaten these people?
A No.
Q. Were they armed?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Were they talking loud and abusive?
A. No, they weren’t talking loud.
Q. Just standing and looking?
A And following those people around.
Q. Following them?
A. Yes.
Q. Were they arrested for following these people?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. For the simply reason they hadn’t violated any law.
Q. They weren’t threatening a breach of the peace by follow
ing these people?
A No, they weren’t threatening a breach of the peace.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: I think those are all the questions
of this witness.
(R-1153) EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
576
(R-1153)
Q. Do I understand the occurrence about which you told
counsel is the only arrest or group of arrests you per
sonally witnessed?
A. That’s right.
Q. And you do not know what the facts or circumstances were
surrounding any other particular arrest or arrests?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Now, on that occasion, do I understand at the time the
arrests were made there were members of both the white
and Negro races in the same locality in the station at
the time of the arrests?
A. I didn’t understand.
Q. Were members of both races arrested at that time or
members of one race?
A. Both races.
Q. Were members of both races in the same place in the depot?
A. That's right.
Q. She has questioned you about members of the public who
were not arrested, both inside and outside the station.
I want to ask you whether or not those people would
have been arrested if they had not disbursed on the
orders of the police department.
A. That's correct.
BY MR. WATKINS; I believe that is all.
577
(R-115^)
EKAJOTATION
BY MR. CLARK:
Q. Chief, did you have any knowledge before the day that
you testified about — Pardon me.
BY MR. CLARK: Am I correct in believing the Court’s
previous ruling that I might cross examine without
waiving my objection still applies to this witness?
B7 JUDGE RIVES: Yes, that applies to this witness.
Q. Did you know before the day of the incident you have
just described in the Trailways station that a group of
people had been in the state of Alabama?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you heard or been informed or did you believe that
these people in Alabama had caused some breach of the
peace there?
A. Yes.
Q. Was their coming or their trip to Jackson advertised in
any sort of a public way or through any public media?
Such as television, radio or newspapers.
A. I don’t know about television, but it was every few min
utes on the radio station.
Q. Did you see anything about it in the newspapers that
have general circulation in the City of Jackson, Missis
sippi?
A. Yes, there were some accounts in the newspaper.
Q. Do you know whether or not any of the officers under
378
(R-1154)
your — or police force had any knowledge of these
people being on their way to Jackson, Mississippi?
(R-1155)
A. Yes, they had knowledge. I wouldn't say that ever member
in the department did, but quite a few did.
Q. Was there any opportunity for the entire public of Jack-
son, Mississippi, to be so informed as to who was
coming and what had happened in other places?
A. Certainly was, yes.
Q. Chief, was it your opinion as a law enforcement officer
that if you did not act as you did in the ^railways bus
station on that day that there would be a disturbance of
the peace and good order in the City of Jackson?
A. I ’m convinced that there wouldlhave been trouble had
not we taken action.
Q. Is this opinion based upon your knowledge and experience
as a police officer?
A. Right, coupled with the fact of what had happened in
other places.
Q. Were there any members of the press present in the termi
nal, the Trailways terminal, on the occasion you just
described?
A. Yes.
Q. Approximately how many members of the press were there?
A. To the best of ray knowledge, — of course, I couldn’t
recognize all of them, — but to the best of my know
ledge, I would say ten. Some of the people had camera
379
(R-1155)
and things of that nature. I could recognize those
people, hut there could have been some there that did
(R-1156)
not have credentials and other equipment whereby I
could recognize them as being associated with the press
in any way.
Q. Did you make any distinction of any sort in who was
placed under arrest for failure to obey an officer, as
to whether that person was in the group of people that
came on the bus or outside the people that came in on
the bus?
A. I didn’t make any distinction.
Q. Did you make any distinction as to who was arrested for
failure to obey an officer as to whether that person
was of the white race or the colored race?
A. No, I did not.
Q, What was the basis on which the arrests were made that
were made in your presence that day?
A. If their presence there under the circumstances could
occasion a breach of the peace and they failed to comply
with a reasonable order of the police department to
move on out of the bus terminal.
Q. In asking for your opinion as a police officer, is it
your opinion that there was any likelihood of breaches
of the peace occurring in the City of Jackson, Missis
sippi, on that date at points or places other than the
bus station had your officers not taken the action they
(R-1156)
did?
380
A. That*s right. I believe you asked for ray opinion?
Q. Yes, sir, as a police officer.
A. I base ray opinion upon the fact I received several tele
phone calls from people. They would not reveal their
(ft 1157 j
names to me. And they would enumerate the various and
sundry weapons and the number of people — that they so
stated to me — that they had corraled in a group, and
insisting that we as law enforcing officers, stay away
from the bus station and they would take care of the
situation. I do not and the department does not tolerate
any violence. And I insisted — the fact of the business
is I pleaded with some of those people to please stay
away and let the police officers handle it.
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Excuse me. May I have the question and
the first part of that answer read? I'm sorry I didn't
hear it.
(The question and answer were read by the reporter.)
Q. Does that complete your answer?
A. Yes, that completes it.
Q. I believe you have been in the courtroom when the three
plaintiffs in the lawsuit have appeared before. Are you
familiar with those three men?
A. Yes, I recognized them. This is the third occasion I
have seen them.
381
(R-1157)
Q. Chief, looking at those men, do you remember that any
one of those three was present in or arrested at the
Continental Trailways station on the day you just des
cribed?
A, I don’t recognize them as being there, and I certainly
don’t recall them as having seen them.
(R-1158)
Q, Do you recall having seen them in the city jail of
Jackson, Mississippi, within the last six months for
any purpose?
A. No, I haven’t seen them in the city jail.
Q. You testified that there were some newspaper reporters
and approximately ten other people who were using the
transportation facilities in the station that day who
were present inside the station but were not arrested.
Is that correct?
A. Yes,
Q. Did any of the newspaper reporters or any of the passen
gers or personnel or people inside of the Trailways
station on that day who were not arrested refuse to
obey your officers In their requests made to them that
day?
A, No. They were congregated around those people right in
the center, and when the officers asked them to please
move back, they did. Most of them went out to the front
of the station.
382
(R-1158)
BY MR. CLARK: We have nothing further.
BY JUDGE RIVES: Any further cross examination? Any
redirect?
BY MRS. MOTLEY: Yes, sir.
FURTHER EXAMINATION
BY MRS. MOTLEY:
Q. Did I understand you to say that before the Freedom
Riders came you had knowledge they were coming?
(R-1159)
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did I understand you to say that you believed that
their presence here would be likely to result in a
breach of the peace?
A. That is correct.
Q. Did I understand you to say you had numerous phone calls
which indicated this?
A. That's right.
Q. This is before they arrived?
A. Before they arrived.
Q. Did I understand you to say there was a lot of local
publicity on the radio before they arrived?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, in view of all that, with whom did you discuss this
matter?
A. Discuss the matter of their arrival here?
Q. That's right.
A. I talked this matter over with my assistant chief of
383
(R-1159)
police, the captain, and most of the supervisory offi
cers in the police department.
Q. Did you talk to any of the state officials?
A* Yes, I talked to some state officials.
Q,. With whom did you speak?
A. Some of the men in the Attorney General’s office who
called more or less as an inquiry, wanting to know if
we knew of this situation, if we knew these people
were en route to Jackson via Southern Continental
TraUways buses.
(R-lloO)
Q. Did any of the men from the Attorney General’s office
do anything further?
A. No.
Q. But you advised them about it?
A. When they called me I advised them, and the fact of the
business is they were calling me to determine if we
knew, and after that was ascertained by this person -
I don't recall which one of the men in the Attorney
General's office called me - and we told him we were
aware of the situation and that we thought that we
could handle the situation within the police department,
Q. Did they give you any advice?
A. No, they didn’t give me any advice. I didn’t ask them
for it; They didn’t offer any.
Q, Did you talk to the mayor about it?
A. Yes, I did.
384
(R-1160)
Q. Did you talk to the governor?
A. No, I didnrt talk to the governor.
Q. Did you talk to the Attorney General himself?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did he call you?
A. I don’t recall if he did.
Q. You never saw him during all this disturbance?
A. Now, from what period of time?
Q. When these Freedom Riders first came here.
A. On the first day I did not see----
(R-1161)
BY I®. CLARK: We object to the word "Freedom Riders"
unless she defines it.
Q. These people arrested the first day, I believe you re
ferred to them as Freedom Riders?
A. That’s right.
Q. You never heard from the Attorney General about it?
A. Not on that day. Not from the Attorney General person-
nally.
Q, When did you hear from him about it?
A. I don’t know the exact date, some few days after May 24th,
this situation, we discussed it with the Attorney Gene
ral.
Q. Who is "we"?
A. Chief Pierce, assistant chief of police, myself, Captain
Ray. There might have been attorneys.
Q, Where did you meet?
385
(R-1161)
A. Let me see, I believe we met in Mayor Thompson's office.
Q. What was decided, at that meeting?
A. The Attorney General wanted to be sure that he had re
ceived the information correctly and about the circum
stances, and of course I'm not an attorney, but the
attorneys discussed ithe charges they were going to
prefer against these people.
Q. Was the Attorney General present when they discussed the
charges?
A. I believe Mr. Patterson was. There was a representative
of his office. I wouldn't say positive M e*. Patterson
was himself, but there were representatives of his
office.
(R-1162)
Q. What else was decided at this meeting?
A. That was all.
Q. Since that time when these first people were arrested in
the Trailways depot, have you had any similar telephone
calls?
A. Since this first day on May 24th?
Q. That's right.
A. Possibly one. I'm not so sure, but possibly there was
one.
Q. Have there been any other men sitting in cars outside of
the bus depots and train stations since that day?
A. I couldn't answer that. I haven't attended any of those
other times they arrived In the city. I don't know.
386
(R-1162)
Have any of the police in the city reported to you since
that time a large number of men have been sitting out
side the depots or train stations as appeared on the
first day?
A. Well, not sitting in cars, but on one occasion on the
arrival of the Illinois Central there were quite a few
men standing in the 100 block of North Mill Street,
which is across the street from the colored entrance to
the Illinois Central station.
Q, Do you know approximately when this was?
A. No, I don't know. To the best of my knowledge it was
on the first occasion that they come to Jackson by the
Illinois Central trains.
Q. How many men were in the group, according to the report?
A. Now, this information was relayed to me.
Q. I understand that.
A. About 10 or 15 people.
it 10 or 15 people? What were they doing?
A. They were milling around back and forth along the street.
Q. Were they armed?
A. Well, not to my knowledge.
Q. Were they talking in loud and abusive tones?
A. I wasn't present, but they —
Q. — According to the report.
A. According to the report, they were disturbed and they
were just at the point that any little incident could
387
(R-1163)
have incited something, and the police officers moved
those people along, most of whom went into the hotels
that is there in that block,
Q. When you say they were "disturbed," please explain what
you mean by that.
A. They didn't appreciate the situation that people were
coming here to a peaceful community for the sole purpose
of causing a disturbance.
Q. What did they do to evidence that feeling?
A. Well, the report that I had they were insisting to the
police officers that this might have been a good day for
them to have gone fishing; thereby meaning it certainly
would have pleased them had the police officers not
been there.
Q. Were they arrested?
A. Wo, they moved on.
Q. Weren't they threatening a breach of the peace?
A, No, they weren't threatening a breach of the peace, not
at that time.
Q. Now, the people who came into the Illinois Central at
(R-1164)
that time, were they arrested?
A. The people that came in?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, they were arrested.
Q. What were they arrested for?
A. Same charges as the others.
388
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Q. What was that?
A. That their presence there under the circumstances could
occasion the breach of the peace, and when they request
ed to move by the police officers they failed to do so.
Q. I thought you said this group of men had moved on when
they were ordered to move on.
A. I thought you were referring to the people we commonly
refer to as Freedom Riders.
Q. I was, but you said their presence there would cause a
breach of the peace, and I understood you to say the
mob had moved on. They —
A. They were across the street, not in the station. You
didn't ask me about the people in the waiting room at
the Illinois station.
Q. What had the people done in the station, the group that
came in?
A. I don’t know. I wasn’t there.
Q. Didn’t the report indicate what they had done?
A. Wo.
Q. Did you investigate to see what they had done?
A. I read the reports, but I can’t recall. There’s been so
many reports I can’t recall. I don’t recall there was
any disturbance of any kind within the station.
(R-II65)
Q. They were arrested but this mob — -
BY MR, CLARK: We object to the word "mob." He testi
fied to how many people were across the street.
389
(R-1165)
Q. This group of 10 or 15 men across the street that you
say exhibited a hostile attitude, they were not arrested?
A. They complied with the police officers and moved along.
Q. When did they move along?
A. Immediately.
Q. Before the people arrived or after?
A. I wasn't there, and I don’t remember that technical point
of it, but they moved along, and I assume to the best
of my knowledge they moved along before the people
arrived on the train.
Q. So that when the people arrived, they weren’t there?
A. No.
Q. Did you receive any other reports from your police offi
cers of this nature?
A. That’s the only two.
Q. The only two reports you know about?
A. The only two I received where there could have been any
situation like you were just discussing. Now, the
others I don’t recall that there has been any other
trouble around any of the terminals.
BY MBS, MOTLEY: I think those are all the questions of
this witness.
(R-1166)
BY MR. WATKINS: I have one other question I would like
to ask.
390
(R-1166)
FURTHER EXAMINATION
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q. With reference to the first group that came in that you
witnessed the arrests in Trailways, had you been in
formed in advance where they planned to spend the night
that night in or near the City of Jackson if they
reached it?
A, Yes, sir.
Q. Where were they planning to spend the night, according
to your information?
A. Tougaloo Christian College on Old Highway 51 North.
Q. I want to ask you whether or not the city had available
at the Trailways station when they arrived cars that
were going to see that they got to Tougaloo College in
safety if they had obeyed the instructions of the
officers to move on out of the station?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Were you planning to see them safely to Tougaloo College?
A. Certainly were.
Q. Would you have done so?
A. I would have.
FURTHER EXAMINATION
BY MR. CLARK:
I want to be sure about the Attorney General's connection
with your testimony. Are you testifying positively and
unequivocally that the Attorney General or some repre-
391
(R-1166)
sentative of his office made any decision as to what
(R -1167)
charges would be preferred against any people who were
arrested by your police department?
A. They did not. This person that called me from the Attor
ney General's office was relaying information to me.
He wanted to be sure we knew about it. And that was the
extent of the conversation. He gave me no advice.
I did not ask any advice of this man.
Q. At the second conference that you mentioned or at the
conference you mentioned after this day when the people
were arrested at the Continental Trailways, did the
Attorney General or anyone from his office on that day
control the making of any decision as to what any per
son would be charged with having done or committed in
the City of Jackson under the jurisdiction of your
police department?
A. No, sir, they did not dominate any part of that meeting.
Q. Nothing further.
BY JQDGE RIVES: Any further cross examination? Any
redirect?
(To witness:) You may be excused.
(Witness excused)
BY MRS. MOTLEY: There is one person we subpoenaed as
a witness, Mr. Ray Atherton of the Illinois Central, and
we have decided not to use him. I was wondering if it
392
(R-11S7)
is all right to excuse him from the witness room if the
others don't want to examine him.
(R-1168)
BY JUDGE RIVES: Do any of the defendants want to use
Mr. Ray Atherton of the I.C.C. as a witness?
BY MR. SHARDS: Not acquainted with him.
BY JUDGE RIVES: He may he excused.
# * * * *