Rock v Norfolk & Western Railway Company Joint Appendix Volume II
Public Court Documents
June 1, 1972
389 pages
Cite this item
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Rock v Norfolk & Western Railway Company Joint Appendix Volume II, 1972. 404458c3-c29a-ee11-be37-00224827e97b. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/de02b8f3-efb5-4b39-aaa1-b30e3b729495/rock-v-norfolk-western-railway-company-joint-appendix-volume-ii. Accessed May 05, 2025.
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IN TIIE
UNITED STATES COURT OP APPEALS
FOR THE FOURTH CIRCUIT
NOS. 72-1777, 72-1778, 72-1779
ROBERT ROCK, EZELL B. JOHNSON, et al..
Appellants and Cross-Appellees,
- vs. -
NORFOLK & WESTERN RAILWAY CO., et al..
Appellees and Cross-Appellants.
APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR
THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA, NORFOLK DIVISION
JOIMT APPENDIX - VOLUME 11
(Pages 418a-791a)
JACK GREENBERG
WILLIAM L. ROBINSON
MORRIS J. BALLER
10 Columbus Circle Suite 2030
New York, New York 10019
VICTOR J. ASHE
Suite 702 - Plasa Qne
Norfolk, Virginia
ROBERT BELTON
237 West Trade Street Charlotte, North Carolina
Attorneys for Plaintiffs
I N D E X Page
Relevant docket entries ........................... la
Motion to amend complaint ......................... 3a
Amended complaint ................................. 4a
Order of Court allowing amended complaint .......... H a
Answer of defendant Norfolk & Western ............. 12a
Answer of defendants United Transportation Unionand Local 550 .................................. 16a
Memorandum Opinion of June 24, 1970 denying motionsto dismiss ..................................... 19a
Minute order of November 6, 1970 defining theclass .......................................... 21a
Answer 1(b) of plaintiffs' answers to defendant
Norfolk & Western's interrogatories ............ 22a
Order of Court on final pre-trial conference
(stipulation) .................................. 24a
Memorandum Opinion of January 20, 1972 ............ 32a
Affidavit showing time spent by plaintiffs'
counsel .................................... . 48a
Decree ............................................ 51a
Amended decree .................................... 66a
Notice of appeal ........................... ....... 78a
Notice of defendant UTU's cross appeal ............ 79a
Notice of defendant Norfolk & Western's cross
appeal ......................................... 80a
Trial Transcript Volume I ......................... 81a
Trial Transcript Volume II ........................ 257a
Trial Transcript Volume III .................
Trial Transcript Volume IV ..................
Transcript of final argument held October 25, 1971
Transcript of final argument held April 20, 1972
Clerk's certificate ..........................
Trial Exhibits -
Plaintiffs' Exhibits
No. 4 (portion) - 1954 Collective Bargaining agreement ...................... .
No. 7 (portion) - 1970 Collective Bargaining agreement ............................... .
No. 9 - Memorandum agreement of July 27, 1966..
No. 10 - Memorandum agreement of February 16. 1968 ................
N°i971 ~ Barney Yard seniority roster January 1,
No. 21 - CT Yard seniority roster January 1 1971 ................ *
No. 22 - Seniority roster Barney Yard foremen and CRO's March 15, 1971 ..................
No. 23 - Seniority roster CT Yard conductors and CRO's March 15, 1971 ..................
No. 24 - Seniority roster assigned Barney Yard
foremen and CRO's as of December 7, 1970 and March 12, 1971 ............................
No. 25 - Seniority roster assigned CT Yard
conductors and CRO's as of December 7, 1970 and March 12, 1971 ......................
No. 28 - A (portion) - Service records, Barnev Yard ............... J
No. 28 - B (portion) - Service records, CT Y a r d ............
484a
693a
773a
783a
791a
Page
792a
793a
803a
804a
805a
811a
824a
826a
832a
845a
854a
878a
No. 29 - Racial designations for 1965-1971seniority lists ............................ 905a
No. 30 - Letters concerning air hose
arbitrary .................................. 906a
No. 31 - Letters concerning seniority changes
Defendant Company's Exhibits .................... 915a
No. 1 - Memorandum agreement November 3, 1953.. 927a
No. 16 - Letter from M.Y. Lusk to W.A. Noelldated August 30, 1967 ...................... 928a
No. 17 - Memorandum dated April 14, 1966 ..... 92 9a
No. 18 - Memorandum dated October 9, 1967 .... 933a
No. 19 - Memorandum dated October 20, 1967 .... 940a
No. 20 - Memorandum agreement dated November 14,1968 ....................................... 945a
Page
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a. V. Irby - Direct 422
A Thirty years.
Q And what la your present position?
A Chief oleric to assistant superintendent,
transportation or operation end.
Q And hoe anny assistant superintendents are
there in Horfolk?
A t w o.
Q And you are the ohief elerk for which one?
4 The one that handles tine freight and yard*
CT department.
<) All right. What is tte designation of the
otter one for whoa you do not work?
A Ho la aaaistant superintendent at the coal
piers in charge of the ooal pier operation.
Q How long have you been the ohief olsrk
under this assistant superintendent ?
A Since i960.
Q Will you state what, if anything, you have
to do as chief clerk in the hiring of people for tte Of
M r
A x interview tte applicants as ttey oone
in, and if wo are hiring at that tine, or if ttey see* is
than wo will toll then to eons book later when we are
hiring. we don't tales applications until actually m
start hiring.________________
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0. W. Irby - Direot 423
Q Do ymi personally screen *11 of tho
applioants for tho CT yard 7
A 1b*.
Q All right, air.
A Too «ro talking about tralxaam and firoaaa
now. Trainaon, ftreat n, tho operatli* end. That la
ovar at tho assistant superintendent of transportatIon,
CT.
Q Tor tho purpooo of this oaso X aa
prinarily interested la whether or not you initially nomi
or Intorvlow all applicants for tho yardaon’s johsf
A Right.
Q In tho CT Yard?
A Too, air.
Q And aftor your aoroonlng, what la tho tm*t
atop in tho enployneat proooaa in tho CT Yard?
A if thoy anawor tho ono fora whiah ia tho
aadloal history, than I bar* thoa fill oat tho applleatloa
and tho othor fora for a polio# shook, and than I arrange
to oond thoa to tho doctor, nano tho doctor1 a appointaaast
for a physical, and aftor that tho report ooaas hack frea
Roanoke, paasod, or dlaqualiflod, or pasaod, and 2 notify
thaa whoa to ooao in for a rules class.
Q Is there anyone in the CT Yard other than
yourself who passes on the hiring?
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A Mr. Qltai, awlataat superintendent4 does
that to set up far the rules olsss. He will leek st the
applications and talk to then.
Q Since you hare been the chief clerk and
involved in the screening process since i960, have you
personally engaged in any dlscrlnlnetloo on e racial
basis between white nsn and blsok awn who have tens to the
Of Xhrd to apply for work?
A Ms.
* • M W W i t#s object, leer Honor. Ms
think that is ons of the issues that ths Court
has to answer.
W COCWi Mall, hs sen answer Wwthar
he as one of the ones deflj* ths work, has
practiced any discrimination. The objection is
in the record, but I will let hln answer it.
0. V. Irby - Direct 4j4
*1 4 *
Q In case it is the nerd discrimination that
areatea ths difficulty, I will ask, hare yam aver
preferred white nsn over black nsn or vice versar
A Mo.
Q ZB the hiring of people et the Of Yhr$?
A Me. Mhe* they oca* in, if they have the
qualifications Of wwt *»f M * them, hish sehoel edweatiwy
li20T^
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0. v. Irby - Direct 425
polloe rocard, and Uun tho nodical form that tha/ fin
la, aix5 4hi* la ikiat I go by. If thay hava gat that wa
will go ahaad and proaaaa tha application.
*4 Hava you baan lnvalvad In tba proaaaalng of
blaak aagloyaa In tha CT Turd ?
A Ib», I hava.
1 All right. Could you nano toot of thaaa
that you hava paraonally aaraanadi and prooaaaad ?
A Raymond Bajcor, Christian. x don't know
hla first nano. Nurd on, Watts. I think ha la goaa
now. And I don't know — thay ara tha only anas I
aatually raaaahar. Thara ara quits a faw of than though*
about 30 or 40 or
4 Ara you acquainted with a Nr. Fay?
A lba* but I didn't hira hist. Ha has baan
thara for yaara. Ha la now rstlrad.
Q Tow naan ha was thara bafara 196OT
A Too.
4 What la hla rasa?
A Colored, or Nagro.
4 And how about Nr. Booth) ara you aequat^ad
with hla?
A Zba, Honry Booth.
4 Did you hava anything to da with hla
hiring?__________________________________ _____________
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G. W. Irby - direct 4 26
A No, he has bees thara -- wall, ha waa
there, I think, before I casta thara. I know Foy was.
0 what is Mr. Booth's race?
A Colored.
Q Are you familiar with the Barney Yard
application requirements?
A • ho. I think they are the same as ours.
I think the whole terminal has the saste ̂ plication, police
record, education and physical.
Q Wow, as chief clerk, part of your
function involves the paper work?
A Right.
0 On employes. Is there any raeial
distinction or designation made on paper work?
A I think there ia a spot on the application
there was. Whether there is now or not, like I said,
I don't read the applications. I pass it on to the
girls or the fellows, the clerks. I think it waa exseed
when the Equal Employment opportunity came in. Now, on
our present P£R& form we get for the paper work, before
we get them to fill in the application, there is no form
there for race.
Q Now, concerning applications, if there are
no positions open, no jobs available in the CT Yard, and
if someone comes and applies for a job, do you have him
0. V. Irby - Cross *33
.)
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{) i
m m > fmimtsb •*&* *• • */
on bstaaif of ttas Hsrfsllc and Vsotorn, b#U* first duly
# tsstiflsd ss follows
U) IT Ml. venom■Oil
11 «
1
Stats your nans, pissss.
12 A
! AAssrd faal Boost.
13 Q By staon srt you saployod, Nr. Bonos?
H A Borfsi* sad Msstsra Ballway.
lo Q Z a what fasility o t ttas Nsrfsl* sad
IB Msstsra? i
17 A MsX I , transportation down at ttas seal plsr.
IB Q is ttaot stfisrslBQ Snow as ttas Baras y
if) M t
2(i A Boras/ IBrd.
2 1 Q Bow ions tasrs /on osrtasd for ttas BBrfsl*
2 2 sad Msstsra?
2.1 A I wont on ttas payroll Fatarnary 3# 19*o.
21 !
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Q 19*0?
1* A IBs, sir.
i
|
*• P. Ro h m - Dlroat
jrou flrat onplapadr
At tha M m j nrd?
ip ftri.
What was
<4
A
Q
A
Q
first anpiopad?
A w»ii# I was a ttr rUwr,
Q Saw long 414 pou
SR»*p Mwd following your fint
A WaU, ths first list I
April 1942, X hallows, during tho
Q Uhars 414 pou go
A X wont down to tho aiwll
• osr rldor at
furloughs* la
Q And how lont
at tho Sfevol anno?
A Sou, X spit 4
paw aaplopsd as a
thora in April 1944 mai
Vhst sort of work did pan do at tho Mural
Sail, railroad work. up to a
9 Now what
, or 414 pou
A
kind of a yard did pou work in
aa a lino ear wtootf
la tha haao
and down at the
X. ?. Rouaa - Diraat 437
k Baa nany tree— did they ham in tha yard
ia tdiih you aarhad during this pariad froa 'ta ta 'ttt
A ftaj cot right <aany in tha Ba— . Da—
there ia the trap Baaa you gat fear dlf— t yard* daaa
there, aad too piers, aad it wa• about 10 av 12 — ha— aa
aad diffaraat plaaaa you had ta spat a n .
0 that about grad<• a— in— t
A In had Kt— * — B— laiM'd.
k Baa aaaid tha wMr* p— did aa a to—
ia tlioaa jevtla at that tine aampara with tha warn af a
tea— a ia tha 0V — rdf
A Xt ia all tha *
k Sa— werfcf
A la— thing*
k B - # ahat happaifeed than la 19tt?
A X w a aallad b*ih ta tha railroad.
k that ahoiaa did you aa— at that ti— an
s ! 1 aaaid aorat
A — 11, X aallad 1mah at t— a— 1 pier. X
— a ataKt not «0 00— iMk, Urf V. 0. INfl,
auperlatendent, awt — wore if x aa— kMk ta the
railroad x aaaid c* to the yard depart— .
<4 da either to the of depart— t ar — pssfcf
s u r d ? ______________________ ___________
..... t
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A
I had
Coat M ok on eenlerlty la tha Barney
Mien la the jrerd aatf
X. F. Ro m m - Direot 43J
. 3 ■tart aa a
4 Q Whleh did yon ehoooe to tfef
.1
1 A Xtay in the Barney yard.
H ' * Wiero have you boon elaee 19*4?
1 A Right there.
H Q Where are you today?
9 A Right down there.
10 Q And Nhet la your proferenam between the
11 work la the CF Bud end the Barney Budf
12 A Z want to stay la the Bareey Ytrd. Z
n don't m nt to go in the yard.
1 4
Q Why do yen prefer to stay In the BU
1 •') Yard?
H>
11
A hell* I an out of the weather about 90
'• ! per eent of the tine and Z don't aee no n*ed to ge dong
18 j
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there and stay la the weather 100 per oeat M w yen one
19 j
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90 per went.
20 j Ml. VCRSKZBflMh Wo hare no farther
Honor.
to
C OORT 1
l. MOODY* WO
Rut one eeeond
that*_____
no goeetlene, Your
way 1 hare a eoocoui
439X. F. Ro o m - R i m t
THE COBRXs A ll righ t.
cross •ixAHzmarzoM
I f Ml. NOGCTi
Q Nr. Ro o m , ihlali loool art f w • — bar
oft
A toll* it m m 974. I ballm it 1a 1889
mamDOW •
Q Right. ffclo is that m m » lowl til the
B a m y 1M a n boloag tot
A too* sir.
Q lot loot horo y m toon a atotr of 1889?
A toll* a w aim* it opom i to*
<* toll* 974, hovo you boon a Motor of 9?4
olaoo It «oo orgMlood?
A toll, It m m 990. Z joint* 990 la North
1940. toon I m m with tho goTtri— at Z m m tnmtwre#
at Fortowmto lodgo. toon Z oom booh to too railroad
Z m m booh la 990. tooa th&a lodgo m m ootoblioJaod toy
troaoforrod m m r la thlo lodgo.
Q Right. And bom* to rotor tnoailodgo m a
nonbor of 974* M o that lodgo m r rotod to «*go Mite
590?
A __ t o t tM t 1 hhOM of.
:I. F. Rouse - Cross 440
Q Right.
* f H | Might
Q Well, you as
had no kaowladgt of any ?ot«
with tha othar lodga?
a
by tha
la ite
of that lodga have
aberahip to
A Rot la tha Mail ballots, I don't think.
Q Z hag your pardon!
A vat with tha nail. I
Q Row, aa ftor an dovetailing of tha two
roatora, dovetailing of tha or Yard rooter and dovetailing
of tha rooter in the Barney lard, da you maw of any vota
hy tha nanh trail Ip of year lodge, a favorable or othar vota
to dovetail with tha CJ Yfcrdt
A wall, wnlaoa they had It up la tha lodge,
I don't mow of any. I don't maw anybody that voted in
tha nail. if they voted la tha mil I don't — I
wouldn't mow «ho voted and who didn’t.
4 Aa far aa lnetltwtlag thin suit la
eonoarnad, A© you mow of aay vote by your local to
Institute this suit!
A wall, no aero than hearsay.
Q You haven't boon sailed la on any* or bona
notified of any vote on It!
A Rot official lodga, x don't think.
<a Raw, what la your standing on the
I. F. Roust - Cross 44i
s e n i o r i t y r o o t o r l a t h s B a r a o y H H ?
i9 A O vor a l l o r —
i Q V a i l - -
1 I
A l i t h s r o a s o f t h s t h r a a , o r w h a t?
I
̂ I
I
Q V o l l , how f a r dow n o a 4 4 o r o s t a r a r s y o u
I
O j 00 t h s B a rn s ,y H r d r e s t a r t
i
7 ! A Z h o ld t h r a a d I f f a r a a t a n s a s a t h s r o .
h lotsrdor, conductor sad tarofcanaa. Z ta ths 544 mus ©wot!
oa 41m rotardsr, 644 asa on 44s hnasau's list, sad dad
I
10 on 4hs conductor.|
Q light. lavs you axplorod or thought shout
|
uhst would 4«4i 9lass if thoao two rostors a m dowotallod,|
tout would happoa as far as your seaiorlty or i ^ n m laI
s slallar category to you la 44s Barns? Had. What would
i j
it do to thsat
A vail, If say of than in ths Of Hrd easts
orsr than oltfsr than ws srs, 14 would Just push us out sf
is i lasIda jobs. H u Just hows ts stop bush sad pish up soa
l!t ,
i la tar oa ths saaoad shift, or ssusthlag.
J \ i ! <4 s 1 S i It would put
Zl |
22
i
psopla in s 4
Into that?
Mtagnpy that you ars la now. laws you Ieohs<3
2.'i | A Hi, sir, Z shtshsd I t . Z d o n ' t know a l l
t h s f i g u r e s . I w o u ld b o a b o u t t h s 6th o s a d u s t o r , Z t h i n k .
3 F ro st d a d ? ______________________________________
l
II
8. f . Rouse - Ct o m 442
A Retsrdor, I think I m i d bn 11 or 12,
and tonkins I would bo wo/ damn tojrbo 17th or lBth. X
don't know exactly on thooo figures.
Q 80 it would bo vorjr dissdvantagaous to
/our pnrtieular situation, or anyone in your 00togory to
hovo o dovetailing of tho two rootoro?
A toll, in mj opinion it would bo. It would
bo to ■» boonuoo tho only thing I » t lo look forward to
la tho job I lito, and tho days off tho shift.
$ tow, would not this also oauoo non to bo
yuahod off at tho bottou and ontiroly loan tboir Jobo in
tho Bamoy Yard?
A toll, I don't know whothor thoy — thay
night looo out if anothor eonaa over thoro and ohooka than
that la oldor than thoy.
Q toll, in tho ganoral yard thoro are
probably twioo aa tony nan as tho Barmy ThrdT
A toll, X hold this high aonlorlty aa aact
of than hold.
Q And thoro aro noro ton with a lot of
aonlorlty in tho ganoral yard than thoro aro in tho Bamoy
Xardj is that oovrootr
A that is tho way I understand.
Q And thoao nan nova ovor and push yonr
group down, and aa a m u l t gf tftit tho nan on tho bottom
1. P. Rouse - Cross **3
of the rostsr in the Bsrney lard probably will bs pushed
right out of s Job| would they not?
A toll, they would bs pushed ovk of those
Jobs, st lssst 90 psr cent out of the weather, east of thaa
would. If I got out In tho yard sad got s ehaaee, X Mm-
X would push so— body out.
Q Aad ss s — bar of Local 974, now 1809,
you ststo you bollovo you srs opposed to dovetailing?
A Bee, dovetailing tbs seniority list. X
sa opposed to that.
Q, veil, let ae eacsalne soother phase of this
gather than Just look st It strlotly frea s selfish
stsadpelnt sad the effeet on your Job stead point.
Vhat about safety. Vhst effeet do you thl**
it would have on the safety faster in the Barney hid to
threw a large ranger of 07 ass la there without experience T
A Veil, it would be a little unwise to throw
then in there unless they had a little bit of experience.
It weald be the oaae thing to us. Threw ecas of then out
In the yard with no experleaee with engines aad ears nevlag
in all directions, aad they would be loot.
Q Why would it be unwiseT
A Sons of them would get hurt, 2 iaagJL.̂ ,
bssauss down there you only watsh one way, neatly.
Q In other eenda, down in the Barney tars you.
1* P. Roust - Cross
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8 !
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12 iI
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10 I
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II18 :
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:
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29
only wotoh
A
a
dirootl*n*r
A
<k
A
way?
Tiisy Art nil oouing down
On tbs Of Hid you hsys to
Pour ways.
Pour ways?
fta.
on you.
in all
BY Ml. BALLOU
* >*• *»**•, I show you this BMOblt Bo.
Plaintiffs * Bxblblt Bo. 20 wblah in a B n a y f*rd motor
datod January 1, 1971. On tbo first pans in position
mu,b#r *r* fta tbo Bouao who in rsfsrrod to in that
positionr
A That is rifbt.
0 And oa tbo fourth pans of that pa past,
in tbs motor for fsroaan in tbo Barmy lfcrd, sould yon
Idoatify your position m that motor?
Q WaOir two?
A Too.
<4 Mm, wbat is tbs soniority dots | t m far
you on tbs bmbsnaa'8 motor?
A Ps ternary U 19*0----
2 I
3
4
5 j
f) ;j
I
7
8
9 j
10
Q And on the foreman'• roster?
A The seme thing.
1K1 COURT: let ms see the exhibit, please,
sir.
Ii
BT MR. BA LUBA:
j
Q So that pern testified that you were miWMr
six among those people still oa this roster in 1971 for
the breicemen, end nmmher two for the forewaT
A lee.
S. P. Rouse - Cross 445
Q Ami that the same seniority date is given
12 | for both?I
A las. That eomea from voted up to is a
14 pear and the seniority lists were aade up at the end of the
year, sad we aade it up, put it all the same date, ami
u>
1H
nobody ever protested it.
Q 1 see. Zs that the usual practise is
determining seniority date?
I
I
A Veil, if nobedy puts up — if nobody
pretests it it stands.
Q Z see. So then you were given e
seniority dote whioh wee sometime earlier than the first
date you mutually wormed that job?
A Well, four or five months.
tt Za that oorreot, four or five months?
S. p. Ro o m - Crooo kk6
1 A Pour or flTO nontho, yoa.
V Q So than you milvod tho poroaotlM to
•1 fnroaaii with a rotroaotlvo aaulorlty data aftor four or
4 flow mMtha of work aa brahotam?
5 A Mo* Thoy pr aunt ad us up, four of uo.
ti and at tho and of tho poor wo undo up tho now oonlorlty
l i s t * , t y p o d I t u p i t t b i t 4 a t o , a n d n o b o d y m r p r o t o o t o d
It.
» * X soa. Whs wars tha othar nan lnrolrod?
A Lot's soo. This has boon a lot* tins i«o
ii Put# Lots. A fallow by tha aaao of H ops haw, asm> Nowton,
12 and wysoif.
13 <4 Would you idnntlfy thooo nan by n iww •
11 A Thoy worn whlto.
15 <4 Mad you wruod in tho Morfolh and Woat*£®u
IK la tha yard boforo yabruary % 19*0?
17 A »o, air.
18 Q Bid you haws any osporloaoo an a jpardons T
19 A Mo, air.
20 Q Za tho pnrlod of 19*0 to 19*3 whoii you
21 atatod you i•art furloughod, what Jobs warn you actually
22 working at that tlao. What olasalfloatlons ?
25 A Braking, riding rogwlar oralBMten'a
21 work.
25 Q Bid you ovor work aa o forouant
I
X. f . hoU M - Cross 447
A Oh, I would catch a day onoa in a groat
while.
Q Z aaa. Mow, at this period, 1940 to
1942, do you roeollaet the nee who ware the forenen la tha
yard at that tlaa?
A Nr. Burgess waa on tha first shift. Mr.
Oragory waa oa tha second, aad Mr. Turney on tha third.
Q Ware any of than black?
A No, sir.
Q Ware you acquainted with tha Barney lard
bratc— an who w ached at that period?
A Its, air, all of than.
Q Do you hare any recollection as to how
nuoh seniority or experience those nan had on their jots?
A Nall, soon of than waa pretty eld when X
went there and they kept retiring all tha years Z been
there. Z was 90 sons when Z use hired.
Q New with reference to your leaving that
yard in 194a, you stated that you returned in 1944f
A Tea, sir.
q And that whan you sane hash you were given
a choice whether to work in the Barney Xhrd or the HaHt
A Z said Z wasn't about to eoaa bask to She
railroad. Z was about to stay with tha civil sarvit®,
and the nan told ns if X didn't want to oane bash to
‘IIS ̂
K. F. Rouse - Cross 448
huop# the only pUes I had seniority, that I eould go la
the yard as a now nan.
!
Q You could go la the yard as a now mbit
A The railroad wanted sons ana right at
that tins, x think.
Q Did you understand that to asan you woald
w
go aat in the yard as a bow aaaf
A 10s, air.
Q And aoeuaalate seniority in the yard?
A 10a, air.
Q Bat you stated that yew did return to nark
la the Barney 1*rd and not la the 01 IBrdf
A 10a. I ooao task te the hag, tha Bar as y
i lord.
Q Why was that?
A What?
Q thy was that?
A X figured if X oner gat old eam*h aad get
wp there aad got a daylight Job, or soasthU*, thst it
would be better ttsaa the yard.
Q that job did yon hold ianadlately
subsequent to 1944 la the Barney Hard?
A Bra teens n.
Q Braking?
A ioa.
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four, I rtekui, la about all.
Q Itew or four la tuo last 13 you*! la tlak
rljbtf
I
A That la rl«ht.
Q Wwa vaa tha laat tlaa you Mat to onof
A Cb, about a aoupla of yoara ago, Z guaaa.
*. f. Ro o m - Cr«M 438
Q oaajr. That la all.
TKS COURTx All rid*. Stop down.
(Wltnaaa aaauaad.)
.
*«WEg b, aallod aa a witaaaa by I
and on baba If of tha Marfol* and Waatara, balag flrat duly
I
aw ora, taatlflad aa follewai
D2RK3T H M Q ttfZ M
ST HR. TUHJOBU
Q would you atata your full naan and
addrtaa, plnaM, air.
A Hy naaa la Hobart L. Vllaon. X 11m ^
813 Tipton Btraat.
q Sy whoa art you aaployad?
A By tha 1 I H Hallway Company.
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Q How long have you totn employed by the
R. L.Wilson - Direct
24
And within the railway oaapany where do you
A
Q
A X work in U w Burney IbnJ, Pier 6.
*4 And tr« you wtr* of tho praepeet of the
between tho Barney 1 M ot Lsnberts Point and tho
Vurd in Norfolk bolng nor god in oono warmer, rlther by
topping and bottoming or by dovetailing?
A Us.
Q Aro yea in favor of devetalll^ of
seniority rooters t
A No, X an not.
Q Voaid you state shy you are not in favor of
dovetailing?
A Nell, x fool that by dovetailing the list,
X fool that it weald eauae ns to lose ny sonloirl
that X have earned over the years.
Q Oensarming these rl*tts, do yea
pUee on the Barmy XSrd farajeema's roster. Let ns
establish this first. Are you on the branames-ooadeoVfrr
and oar retarder operators in the Barney Bird?
A lbs, X an.
® ____Whet is your position on the Burney Bar£
*• L* Ai^aoh - Dirtot *«>
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'• roster r
It
3 And what would
Poit#r w u eersad with the OT
la dovetailing*
A AT dovetailing, from what
4* •tAadiag about 38 tinea.
3r w position be if this
Ay hiring date. That
would the praotieai effeet of that
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lower poaition bet
A Well, it would probably uaice a* lose a day
Job. 1 hare been working days new for the laat eight or
ten r»*re, and I probably would hare to go to tte shift
<4 And do you know your plane on the Barmy
lhrd eonduetor'a renter?
A 1 stead about 6 tinea on the Barney Tnd
eonduetor'a lint.
that renter was
A
Q
ear retarder
lint?
p m ****§ M if
dovetailed with It?
Cl eonduetar Uat, approsinately 58 tinea.
And hew about — what la your plane on the
operator lut ^ ^ msmQJ ]M 7
I stand approKinately -- the retarder
Alght, air?
R. L. Wilson - Dlroct 461
4 Im % *• m «. I itiod about 6 tlan# I guana*
Q Hava you determined where your pUet would
I
bo on the amrgad Hat with th* CT oar retarder lletT
4 I w»uld »ay appro*lately now 38 tlaH.
I
Q And what pealtlea da you ordinarily work la
|the Barney B M T
4 X work eoaduetor la the Barney Bard.
Q All right, air. Xn addition to yourself,
da you know whether other people la the Barney yard would
be adversely arrested la a way slallar to whet you have
deaarlbod, if dovetailing took offast?
A fte. X think several of the older fellows
would be affnoted by It. I believe that they would lose
poo it lone that they new held. I believe that la
i
dovetailing the Hat, that It would eauee these nan Who
have warned 20 or 30 yearn to lone seniority rights on the
Barney lard. Ant X believe that anno of the nan older than
then probably fron the yard would sent and taka their ^ote.
Q Can you doeeribe the praetloal effeet of
losing that pee It ion la tesue of the plane yea eea work and I
shift you eaa work?
1
A Well, If X wee te lose ay seniority, m y
•awing bee* 38 tinea on the eoaduetor Hat, X probably
had to — I night have had to go book to braking. x don't
know.
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q For tte mart, ». Wilson, would you ststo |
your rsco?
A Ssy whst?
Q Would you ststo your moot I
A I an s mgro.
MR. TURNER t Thank you. Floaso answor
If. Moody's questions.
R. l .Wilson - Diroot 462
n r n . n o o b t i
j
q Nr. Wilson, X am not ours X Maori to*
i
ooMooat, If It was aanod. low loos Mots you toon working
on tMs Bornsy xordt
A On which Barney XOrdt
q Whoa did you go to work far too 1 k wt
A X wont to work for the M a w February 17. j
1*7.
j
Q Did you go to work on the Barney W d V
A TWO.
q And hare you Soon there sinoo that tlnsf
A las, X hays. II
q on ono of ths Barnsy lards?
A iso.
q And you aro a nanbor of 1889 which
y
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R. L. Wilton - Cron*
97*1 1* thnt correct ?
A Tos, X no.
Q To four knowlodgo ho* there boon onj rota
by tho mabors of 97% to dovetail with tho motor over on tho
OT »M T
A Hi, sir.
Q Do you root 11, ho* item boon any meting
in which thoy voted «t * meting of any fclndT
A Thoy wal out a referendum ballot,
q Thoy did 7
A lb*.
Q Blit thorn ho* boon no yublie mating at dilct
tho — who m oam to tho mating and mtod on II, to your
icnowlodgo} is that correct7
A X couldn't aay that.
q Thl* ballot was hold at a regular mating?
A It was.
q It wasf Do you know tho onto mo of tho
ballotf
A Mo, X do not mow definitely. Only what X
hoard.
Q From your observation or from yews*
information, what is tho fooling of the m n on tho Bara*/
lord insofar as margins with tho OT yard is oonoormd?
A Wall, i boro hod m n oom to m and toll m
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that thsy wouldn’t libs for tbs ssnlorlty list to bs
dovetailed.
Q Right.
A Quits s row of than.
Q You bass had quits a fow to sous to you and
saj thsy did sot want it dosstuilsdf
A That U right. But thsy wars sot wlllij*
to tostif/ to that offoot.
Q Right. Tbs/ ars afraid to tost if/ bosoms
•southing ua/ bappss if tbs/ did, or soustbiBg of that uiuCt
A boil, it sssasd to bs that wa/. 1 don't
It. L. Wilson - Cross 444
Q Isn't it trus that if thsy did dsvstail that
quits a fsw of tbs Bums/ Xhrd nan would probably loss tbair
job by bsing pusbad dawn frsn this dovetailing?
A Ball, la dssstailisg tba list I fool libs
quits a fsw of than would loss thslr position. Libs
ssndustar and rotardsr opsrstor. And assn sons tbit a n
braaOng on tbs first shift, tbsy would loss tbs prsfsawnss
tbs shift.
Q And would not also sons of tbs
loss thslr Jobs as a result of it, not swan b a r s a J 9i*
sssauso of it, if thsy are right at tbs hot ton of tbs
ftsniorlty list?
A *•!!« I pass it sould bo a possibility.
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R. L. Wilson - Gross 465
Q Right. What shout safety now. If /on M
ssjr, if they pisood s larss nuabar of untralaod m b fro*
another yard in tho Barney Hr4« do you ti>tf wonltf
srosto s safoty hazard?
A Yba, sir.
Q What shout if ihijr pisood s lores oadMr of
B m s j lord non ovor in tho or Hid without say previous
training. Do you think this would srosto s ssfoty hi sari T
A Yos, I do.
Q (Am othor quostloa. Bo you Mow of say
othsr Tots by your loosl «r your ledge to brli* la s suit
ia this ssso to forss a dowstalUjqtf
A Mo, I don't hare say knowledge of that.
MR. NOdVi All right. Thank you.
THE COURT t Gross-oxnalne.
MY MR.
Q Nr. Wilson, haws you « m war had ss s
ywtasstar la tha Barmy Yard?
A Mss, Z haro war hid rollaf jots.
Q Whoa was tha first tins that you waro as Had
to work aa yardnaator?
A Oh, it has boos last Rereaber — lot's gos.
It has boon about s yosr. I would say Moreshsr.
Q Is that s job olsssifiostlon that falls nhor
^ 3.
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R. L.Wilson - Cross 466
the contract yards**ter?
A I don’t understand your question.
4 Sow were you selasted Tor the position of
yards**ter or assistant yards**ter, or relief ysrdasster.
Mho selected you, and how?
(S A X was asked by the superintendent of the
• railroad. le asked m would I llhe to be s yardasstsr, an
8
9
X told bin yes.
Q Sow, do you know If there are any bleaks
10 In the Barney XSrd who have greater seniority than you who
11 have net woriesd the position of yurdaaster?
12 A Too, yes, quits s fsw.
13 Q Sow, X think yea testified that you feel
14
15
that you will be hurt workwlse if the seniority rosters
are dovetailed?
1H
17
•
A Yes.
Q Have you taken a look at the CT Yard
seniority roster to find out where you would fall in a
19
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dovetail situation. Nr. Wilson?
A Ybs, X have leaked at s list that was
21 i
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23 |
supponsd to bars boos of the Of Hard, against the Bkrnsy
Yard. And on this list, sssordlng to that list, X wss&&
have loot right ouah of ay saaiorlty on the Barney YOr&.
24 Q X show you. Nr. Wilson, what has boon
25 Identified as Fla ink if fs ’ Exhibit So. 20 which is a copy of
H H 5 ^
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R. L.Wilson - Cross 467
the 1971, January 1971 brekenan oatapery. Could you
lboate where you stand on that roster?
A Right there,
Q Matter 11 frou the topj la that correct?
A That la rl£it.
Q Mow Z show you a copy of the doe uneat which
ban boon identified aa Plaint if fa' Kxhlblt Mo. tl which la
the renter of brekauan for the XorfoUc terminal and aah you
hew aaay ana on that renter carry the 1947 hiring date or
aenlorlty date?
A gy snath?
Q My year, 1947?
A Mr year, okay. Ten non on hare that haa
1947.
Q And there are one, two, three, four, firs,
a lx, aeven, eight, nine, ten — at leant 25 non before you
begin to got Into the year 1947? 1* that oorreet?
A Tea, air.
Q So baaed on thane two llata, would you fall
within the top 20 or 25 non on a eanhlned Hat?
A Ma, air. That la net oorreet. I
Q Why not?
A I ea atUl behind these nan on ny Hat.
I naan, these nan are here to as. They conn here In *k4,
and *45, and '36, and '29. They are atlll ahead ef m .
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R. L.Wilson - Cross 468
Q That would bo ton non, booouoo you foil
oloyon ob tho Barnay lord list, and wo timnftH 15
», and you boro o oonlority dato of Fobruary 1 7, 1947.
10 and 25 would bo 35# and you probably would bo 35 or 36
or 37 oa tho ooatlnod in,t?
k
* U folt asaurod, Mr. Wilson, you oould
as ragularly in tho OT Yard as you oaa ia tho aamoy
i# as you aro now, would you bo oppoaod to a asrparT
k Would you stato your question again?
Q Zb a nor sins situation if you woro to
two rostora and you oould work as ragularly in tho Of
m you aro bow working in tho samoy Hrd, would you
bo oppoaod bo aargar?
k Sotwooa ay job oad ths Job in tho yard, X
would rathor hayo alas. z would rathor hayo ar Job.
Q Woll, Z wasn't asking you about whothar
you would rathor hayo tho Job in tho Bsrnoy yard,
Z thouHt you tostifiod that you woro oppoaod to ths
booauao you a i # bo hurt workwiso by that nargar.
ths quoatioa X poood to you is if you oould bo isswd in
s nsrsBd rootor that you oould «ark as rogalarly sa yon w o
now working in tho Barnoy yard, would you bo oppaaad to it?
k woll, aa a bra tea nan or as Just gall* cost
tharo and working. x muua, Z fool Ilk* X hayo oarasd thi
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X. L. Vilion — Cfoti *69
po»«fc* that I get and I mat to n«p tt. I rwl xu» i
'"orkMS «P to r t M U and x fool Ilk* I *0*14 w tmr
Your pr*f«r*iM« u to work in tho f i m j
YXrflj is that correct?
A That la right.
Q Jbat IT you could work as rtplarljr la the
or Xar« ao in tho K m , M r » m u M m » M mrgnt
* X can't h , that M m i h i u o/lj* that I
»««M Mtbor a m mj )ob u f m m then to (a cut thorc la |
tho W < wad work KraMami. x could ratlwr m i p m *-—
** I wcsU latter work feenaan an ths
I Yard.
Q If i n couU bo as star od after a tnialm
P***iod you would work as regularly as f
as regularly as you are working «n tte
bo opposed to nerger or
A low would you
to work?
la the Of Yard,,
ao that x a« going
4 X oaa't guarantoo you. X an putting the
bo j n hypothetically.
MR. TUKlSRt Jtadge, I want to raiso a©
objection to it on tte basis it la a hypothetical
question. There hasn't boon any evidence to show
this has boon the ease.
470
MR. BE iff OW i Nor hss thsrs bssn an/ evidence
to show it would be the other way if it wsrs
aerged without the guarantee.
THB COURTs I will let him ask it. If
I**- Wilson wants to speculate on it he can. if he
doesn't, it is all right with aw. if he doesn't
want to speeulate on it, don't. Whatever you want
to do.
THE WITNESS: I don't want to.i
THE COURTS He said he is not interested la
speculating.
I|
I BY m . aSZTONt
j
^ this question, Mr. Wilson. If
i
a esrged seniority rooter in the CT land and Barney YtedI
j will result in greater opportunity for the black folks in
i _
! the Barney Yfcrd, would you be opposed to it?
A I aa not opposed to Merging with the yard,
only the way the yard is Merged. I feel like that at mj
age I have worked and put practically all ay life an this
Job, and I don't feel like I should give up ny seniority to
go out there in the yard and work another Job that I wouiu
rather not work. I eean, I think that I have earned the right
to work nyr job. I accumulated seniority and I Just fe^l
UJ* thia Job that I have I like, i nsan, I would rather
R. L. Wilson - Cross
—f-
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\ >
*• L.ViI«o«i - Qh u
not so to tte jpard
U r « t a t m
Z ai tif1ms to
'* ay «mtion. X «an
MTlns, MP. V & l M •, M f w
M t | W M W IppiHi t«
Vittl N M
tootiflod
if
to * »
z **, it tontority
4«to y w «ro mm
Of
to it, it 9m
ft
A It it
to
•f to*
top ant
for «ar
15
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M l X m Hgrlac that X 4m
X tfclM
X 4m'%
X « M ] H >t
X ftsto
to
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25
(too it tap for it
to at
4** ttot Ha to*
V to n
. xs tfeft
x thu*
to
that la oj»ooiiat
youroalf M i m m 4®t f
J,
1 * U WULMM - O r OBI
— -*
1 Z t h i n * t h a t i t M a l i M a rt a t M o l a r i t y v i s a , M I t h lM t
2 t M t i t » M i m m m t o U m p r i M l w t M t z m m B i n t ,
3 b y t k U I w U l l U l . X f M l U M t M t I f M U M M M
4 I w U i m , X f M l U M t M t t M M M o m M t M t M « »
5 m n p o o l p a r ity M a X M m * X t t t a k t M M m s M m m « N
6 M M i t M y M i o i l s M n X M t* m m o f t i n t , t o i t o g p m t
•
l a t M i n i , o r t o m m t M t * a a M r & t y M y f t w * t M * , X
8 t M M l a t r a i l >
9 M . M N I ( M f l l M r V M I
10 y o o u
11 W e o x x i M a p t t M . M U y o u r m *
12 * M * .
13 ( A M * M M M t . )
14 A*
15 i
15 1!•a
17 a a i * M M l f i f t M M r f a lM « * M i n i * M t a t « M t M r
|
•
M M , t o o t i X l a i M fo U tW M I ■ '.‘i
i
19 M
20 fiX M M * t u m m m m
21 i
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22
m m . i t m M M i t
i
23 4 i t a t a i m p m m , |O a u o , a i r .
- w “4 A O M a r lo t A . « M > .
25 Q M a r t d o i w U m , M r. t l a w t
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J. 1
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A Virginia Baaeh.
Q BjT whoa are you eaployed ?
A Norfolk and Western Railway.
Q What U your posit Ion with Norfolk and
Western Railway?
A Assistant suparintandant assigned to tha
Norfolk tarminal.
Q Which particular part of tha Norfolk
taratlnal do you have supervision over?
A Tina freight, tha aarahaadiaa fraipil.
Q Aa between tha CY ftri and tha Baraay Hard,
whlah facility do you have supervision overt
A Of Y*rd.
Q Now, what aaqpariaaaa have yau had in
railway work?
A 21 years expenses#. X started aa a yard
braksaaa in st. Lamia,NLaaourl on tha former Walkmah
Railroad.
Q What oaaaalon did yam have to aama with tha
Norfolk and western?
A X same to tha Norfolk and western from tha
navy. Whan I *ot out of tha navy, whan I get out of tha
aervloe.
3 You mean from tha walbaah?
A ___It was due to a warmer.
C. A. aiasa - Direst 473
£ X
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Q When did that taice place?
A 1964, I believe, or 1963. Around in that
area.
Q ltow, froa your experience then of theee two
railways, chat cltuatlona are you aware exist lac where there
la acre than one seniority district at the m m geographical
location for the seas craft?
A Oh, in ay own seniority district In St.
Louis, Missouri there are, prior to the arrger, thare were I
three seniority districts. since the acr^r there la four j
of the seat craft.
Q Vow, at the aaas location for different
crafts, how aany rosters are you aware of, say in St. Louis?
A 1 believe there la 13 union organisations
that hold contracts with the railway, and they all have a
seniority roster.
j
<4 Hew aany of thoae roaters are baaed on raee
where there are all bias* In ocas district and all white In
another?
A Mane that Z knew of.
I
Q All rl#tt, air. Mow, as to the two
facilities that we have here, the Of TSrd and Barney Ttod, I
arc you familiar with the function of these two facilities?
A fee, sir.
Q Mow, what is the primary function of the
C. A. Qiaos - Direct 474
I0. A. Olaaa - Direct 475
1 Barney Tfcrd?
A To place ooal in a poeltloa to he dm*ed on
a vessel. 1
4 | <* And la anything elec handled in the Barney
5 Ihrd except coal7
ts A
l
Vo, air.
7
4
Vhat la the function of the or yard aa t e
H aa the hraitomn, conductors, and ear retarder operator* are
9 concernedT 1
10 A The or lhrd handles the loading of coal
11 train* and tine freight trains.
12 Q Vhet do you uean by tine freight trainer
13 A _ 1
Merchandise freight, air, various types of
14 aarohandiae am1 railroad equipnaat.
15 Q Oiee ua a few examples of the type nrihaadlae
10 jhandled in the or sard.
A Perishables in the way of Mat and produce.
18
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Autoaokll* part., M up M w H I n , .tow for w t r o o t w , !'
19 oil. if it m b bo shipped la railroad tipiij— t 1% o
20 through our yard.
1 j So it would bo fair to say It la a ganoral
22 I cargo of a alxed nature ?
2! A lb a, air.
Q ■0»* ** • ahippar ships a load of coal fc©
25 [ th* MarfoUc terminal, how far doaa the liaa haul sharps get
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C. A. Olass - Direct 476
that load? — -
A To tha B a r m y Hurd itaelf.
Q Mom, after It gats to tha Barmy Had* what
portion of it doaa it t on to root for that line haul charge t
A z don't understand tha question, air.
Q All right. The shipper in west Virginia i
ahipe a load of seal over hare and pays a line haul ehary
to get it hare. What point in apnea doaa that seal oar
sons to rest for that one charge?
A After it is planed on tho Barney H o d hr a
yard oraw.
Q All ripit.
A In position to be -- I
Q What type of anployas, as between 0T and
Barmy lard employes, put it at that point?
A OT employes.
Q After tha Barmy T am people than take it
over, what additional charges nay be inpaaad for tho leading |
funotlon which you described that gone on in the Barney
Hurd?
A Bwdplng of the coal, trlaalng of tho ooal
on the reseel, blending of tho coal.
Q Bow, how aany e her gee does that anount to? I
A Thera would be three separata chargee.
Q Three separate charges?
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0. A. Olass - Dlrsot *77
Hi.
Worn, as far as ths lins haul share* on
***** doss tha shipper gat for his slapis
j
Tha shlppar rsaalvss tha acva**nt of his
location for unLoadli*.
And is that to the aoaslgnaa ar not?
■
Ths, sir.
Now, if It is dsllvarad to dosh slda for
loading on watar horns vassals, shat additional sharps is
aada bp tha railway ooapany itaalf, tha Morfolh and
hsstarn?
A Thars is noaa that I an awars of.
Q What additional sharps nay ha have fro* sons
othsr ooapany?
A Tha ohargt for tho parsons aha unload tha
sar and plasa it on tha vassal would ha tha loopahoraasn.
Q And that la a aaparata eharps by a
aaparata sntorpriss ? i
A Nsa, air.
Q Now, what raaponaibllity do you havs in your
Job for hiring brass**n in ths CT Thrd, Mr. Olaasf
A Thsy ars hirsd through ay offioa. py ahlaf !
elsnc panarally scraana tha appliaants and out tha
naaaaaary prsliainary papara for tha hiring. And aftor thay
A
Q
ganarsl cargo,
sharps?
A
product to his
Q
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have puiad fete nsoessary qualifications of ft physical, ft
polio* oheek and «o forth, than I |lv« than m i l first
student ins trust loos into their priaary duties, and n t m r
thsm ft gain while I aa perfanaLng.
•
Q Mow, alnoa you have bean dlseharglj* this
!reaponeibility for the railway ooopany, what oeoaalon has
ftrlsen where there was 00e n e a m j and there would be a
white applicant and a black applicant and there would be
any preference ewer one or the otherf
A There here been none. I hare had three
hiring episodes in 22 aonths that Z have been here, and in
all three oases I had authority to hire 50 breJeeaeo, and X
filled this authority as they ease.
i
Q Was thsre any penfareneo of any whit#
applicant over any bleak applicant T
A Mo, air.
Q Mow, what oesaaioa, if any, have you had to
j
encourage the application of black applicants in the 0T yard
since you have bean here? 1
A Well, z have requested free a couple of
our colored yard brekeasn to bring, cor send sons of their
friends who would naks a good eaploye in for enploynent.
Q Can you naan the aaployes, the black
■ j
employes that you caked to bring other black employes, or
applicants ?
C.A. Glass - Direct 478
C. A .(HAM - Direct ^79
A Nr. Christian and Nr. Dakar.
Q Mint m a l t s hsrs yea received, If any, frea
that requestf
A They have sent individuals te be employed,
and X believe X enployed — it see either tve or three
Nr. Baker sent, and X don't really know how anny Nr.
Christian sent in.
a that was your record as to hiring *ny
blank applicants on the WalbaaMT
A On the f onstr Valbaeh I never had the
responsibility of the hiring of applicants. n e t did not
ease about until after the Merger. Bat after the Merger,
idille stationed at Fart Bayne, Indiana X hired the first
black braksaen stationed at Peru, Indiana as yard brehsasn
or switohaan they are referred to at that point.
Q Hew about Booster f
A X hired the first breiosasa and olerka that
wars ever hired is Decatur yard. Decatur, Illinois.
Q BOw, to you knowledge at the Mrfolk
terminal, what segregation has there been in loaners ant
wash rooanf
A Nona, to ay knowledge.
Q Bow, whet rseponeihllity have you had, If
any, aa to the promotion of Of Yard bratcaaan to eeaduefcar,
as to the tests adainlstorad?
a-
0. A. Glass - Direct 480
A in conjunction with the ruls n p m l i o r ,
*r- i M # * of ths Norfolk sad Western Hallway# I prepare
**• t u U that «r* Mine kj U e 1— r » n " m i n t n m i l e
tor eentmtor. I edelnl.Mr M m . M a M . grM. M e M a M
end prom ote or fell the Individuals who ere ^»*r«ng the
tests.
Q How ere these tests related to the jot
•hills needed for the promoted job ?
A These tests are, la gensral, on ths
operating booh of rules, safety bees sf rules relatii* te
their Job responsibilities.
Q Mow, what standard. If any, are In these |
tests that do not relate to the needs of the Jebf
A To the needs of the job there are none.
i
Q Do you ash then any questions that are not
needed on the Job?
A He, sir.
I
Q Mm, how lnpoartaet la preset lan to
conductor on the Of Ihrd is ths experience of the person to
I !be promoted? I
A Considerably. We attest to hold
prenatlons to these eaployes who have preferably five years
experience or sore, as dictated by the denands for eondueters^
Q All rl^it. And of what value Is ths five
years experience in qualifying the «*>loye for presstlen?
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0. A. Class - Direct 481
A well, after this period of tine he la
considered to be a qualified brekewan who has tipcat aware
of and knowledgeable in the operating rules for signals
i
and interlocking rules and thlj«s that he absolutely nust
knew to perform hie functions properly and safely for hiaaelf
and the reilway.
Q Now, what requirement, if any, does the ' i
Interstate Camerce Cocmd salon hate aa to ahasklng
conduct care of the GT Ybrd me to fltneeer
A Mot only conduetore, but all GV oeplayea
Heat bo physically chocked oase per peer as to their fitness
sad qualifications for their particular craft.
Q All right, air. Nr. aleas, la there any
difference in the work that la dene by the Barney Yard
employes as conpared to the 0Y Yard employes?
A Considerable difference.
Q All right, air. Let's take then the
difference in the trainees's duties as to thoee that the
Of trulnean has. Could yeu enemaret* m m of the things
that he has to bo able to do and scan of the knowledge that
he hae to have to perform hie duties.
A The CT trainmen east knew signals, both
automatic signals that will sauae the movement of his
equipment on the ns in truck, and he asst knew hand sip&la.
Theme are signals that are relayed froa one neater of a
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C. A. Glass - Diroot 482
•raw to another, that actually talks to aaoh other by
signals. He aust knot his interlocking rules. He Must
know all of the Industries located on the terniaal, where
they are, where the ears are desired st these individual
industries. He mast be oonvereant with different forms
that are required to be aade out throughout his tour of
duty.
Q Are these paper fans that have to be
filled out?
A tea, air.
Q All rlgat.
A He take# aeal numbers fro* ears, flagp
crossings. He aaet be oonvereant with interchange points
as to the trackage roe* of these individual interchange
points and where they are located.
Q Stop there for a aoasnt on that. YOu say
there is something of s computation, I would issues, about
the interchange. give m an exaaple of that. Hew doe#
an lnterehaaga arise and how is it aceo*pllahad ?
A Wall, the interchange is terminology used
to define a ear being brought into the tenainal fro* acme
point beyond the terminal to tha interchange or be give**
to another railroad, either for further movement beyond
that point or for a local Industry on that railroad.
4 What are the normal railroads to whom eara
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C. A. 8l n » - Direct 463
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•r« lntcrahangad fro. Ch. iwrfol* teralnair
* K»U, M dollror to tho M It lino lUllMty.
™ * to tho Morfolk-rortMouth Boltlln, mill*,. ,t
polaU. At s « «u, folnt fri and what w t«t
oozmootlon, ■orthW B -«o«tl»» lnUrl^icin,. w. *,U w
»• th. ».m>.jrlT«ai« UllroM «t tw, point.. * 4ollw
to th. horfolic-Southom lUllr^ »t on. polM. «. «.u
to tho rtit of tho Nllroadi la this tee**
*wtfoUc-Hrto*outh Boltllno lallroad.
Q *•*'0 * » * t imoulodpo does tho
** * n* * * * rt ** ***** ihtorohM^pt have to have of tho rule#
*«» tho OOP mnrnmnto of tho raiiwa/ coupon, w ith *um tho
latarahanpe U to bo «det
4 Ho wot flrot bo oblo to rood an inbound
troln oonolot and *Mn breaking up this train plooo tho
e«po In tho proper t » « fop tho proper interehanpo
oonnoetlon. Ho wot bo ouopo of tho amount of
row uhon ho phpeleau/ nones tho lafcereluu«t. ■
bo ouoro of tho propor route to toko to pot to tho
interchange. Boolean/ thlo &o uhet an individual mmt
know to ofToet thlo.
Q What does ho do with tho papers after be has
delivered tho cam to bo lnterofcaapsd ?
A Ho wot handle tho bill* that are, or lapal
document* that trawl* with each oar, and an ^
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484
fora, and deliver then to the proper point for the
connecting line railroad.
Q A U right, air. Now, what knowledge doee
he have to have, if any, about deaurrege rules?
A He ahould be aware of what deaurrege rulee
are, what defines deaurrege fear the particular ears.
Q Now, what knowledge, if any, does he have
to have about the e las sea of trains that aay be aovlng, say,
an the min line?
A Veil, he mat know hie operational rules
in this reapeet. we have only get two classes of trains.
The first class train is a passenger train, and everythin
I
els# runs extra. But he mat be aware of timla movements,
how to get off and eo the wain line. He has to have
peraieeion to do this. He suet know who to sail to
.
assure the permission.
I
How about the unbar of treeks that a or
train has to be acquainted with?
A In the Horfolk terminal la Just the yard
proper, notwithstanding any interchange treeks or
industry treeks, somewhere in the eras of $00.
I
<4 And this includes the three sections T
!
A This includes the Laaberts Point area,
including the government yard. Part lock yard and Sewells
Point yard.
C. A. Olut - Direct
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C. A. H u s - Direct 405 j
Q Vow, how about t ha handling of extra-
ordinary aargo such aa explosives and ao forth. Wat
knowledge dooo ha have to hart of that?
A *• mMt to knowledgeable in tho buroau
•*Plosiwe regulations aa to dangerous and/or explosive
notorial, shore to plane it in the train.
Q What about the nakewp of outbound trains.
What Knowledge dooo ho have to have in order to portioipato
in that?
A Ho haa to harm tho knowledge of tho
claaaifiaation of tho train. Tha outbound train is
elasted for station sot off. Aa you eon* to thi location j
tha oars are taken off of tho train. ho aunt know this
classification shea hullrtlng an outbound train.
Q How, you said sonething about signals I
ns teas ary to bo known, and you aontionsd hand slgMls and
■utoastie signals. How oo^lieatod are tha algnala that
havo to bo known and of wt*t importance are they as far aa
tho propar covenant and tho safe covenant of the oquipnant
is eoneemsdt
A wall, if tho signals are not known and not
sonpliod with it would result in a collision, possible
fatality. It Is an atancluto nuat.
9 How about tbs operation of switchesT
A Tb«PO is a prescribed asnasr in which to
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op*r«t« witch... H* w a t also kno. ho. to op.rat. |
SUtOMtl. (SIMMS If t h m is S O M ftiiurs la tbs i
wechaniaa. Sl»«tnc lock swltehee, things of this neture.
I
^ about the operation of the cut lovers ?
A **•> sir. lio oust know tho operation of
out levers, Applying end re loosing of hen* brents, tho
oporotlon of derolls end thst sort of thing.
Q whot shout sir hose work. feet sort of Air
t
hose work does tho or nea hove on occasion?
A Qb oeeoslon he will couple or piece the
nlr on his own drsft of ears so th»y sey be w e d .
C.A. Olaee - iamet 43$ !
<4 Whet about tho safety rules
to know. Are they ere seat
thst the Of
?
A lbs, sir, sbsolutsly.
Q Sow ansh detail la there la thistt
A Oeneldereble detail aa to the proper Mass
la feleh the (V brokesaa or oosduetor perferss hie duties.
It could, if these rules are violated, it could mim the
sen for life or possibly kill ei»
Q Mow, how about the safety factor la thi or
work nonparod to the Barney Bard. What la the accident
rote In the 0T lhrd?
A It Is at least three or four to sac.
Q How, you have enumerated the lumbers of
things that the 0T sea has to know, and the danger of his
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C A. (Ha m - Direct 487 1
Job. Which of these things that you have Tin— ret»it does
i
the Barney Yard aan have to know?
A Well, the Barney lard nan — at know the
proper normsr in which to apply and release hand brakes,
how to mount and dismount in Moving sad standing equipment,
and how to operate eat levers. Beyond that the similarity
stops.
Q Bow, there has been some issue in this
ease about furloughs in the Barney Yard arising out of the
extra board. Could you describe to us how the extra beard
works and how it creates furloughs, if it does?
A The extra board is a list of parsons
primarily to be used whan vacancies are created due to
j
illness or vacation, or when extra manpower is needed.
When business fells off for say given reason the
contract^1 agreements that the railroad has with tbs
different organisations, and in this oaae the pro
stipulate that a asm on tho extra beard must make BO days
per month or 10 days per half, aad when he falla to do this
then the extra board is out. That is raduaad aad them
these people are —
3 Beduoed by the way of furlough when it
is out ? I
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A This furloughs people. This cutting
of that extra board actually furloughs tho people.
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Q Is this to tbs advantage of the railroad
oaapeny to out the extra board?
A Vo, sir, it isn't bootuM isnritblr It
bring* stout 1 stuorttfi of supoMr that in turn ptislln
tfc* railway company for a punitive rata of pay or tin* and
a half rata of pay.
Q Why does tha railroad out the board than
if it la not to tha railroad'a advantage?
A This la a contractual agreement between the
labor organisations and the rail aarriera. we agree to do
this so we do it.
Q Who requested that it be done that way?
A The organisations.
Q how, there has bees sow indlsatioa in
ease that Barney lard ear riders or braieenan have been
on occasion in the Off lard. can you tell us on what 1
of occasion this weald occur T
A Dae to an art raws shortage of Of Yard
brakaaen, Barney lard braaenea were called to set as a
brakamea in the OT lard. They were placed an aa el finite
to do the least m a t of work possible when this was done, j
4 What was done as to protection for these 1
people, if anything?
A Mot aero than one of then wore placed on any j
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C.A. 3 lass - Direct 433
01 assignment. _____________________
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C. A. Olasa - Diract
And according to your upcrit oould
489 |
a nan from the Barmy yard go over and serve ona shift aa
a CT yard brexeman, and be qualified aa a CT yard brekemn
to do all of these thlnga?
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A Mo, air. m my eatloatlon it will talcs
approximately three yearn to mage a good CT yard bremeaen.
^ Does thla relate to aafety la M y belztt
able to protect hlmaelf and the equipment?
A yea, air.
Q Mow. one last thii«, nr. 01mum. It has
been some suggestion here that the Barney yard people my
have been deprived of something that la their Just
deserve in not having any motor power by way of diesel
locomotive. How practical would it be to have dleeel
locomotive In the Barney yard?
A The moat impractical thing that I could
lnaglne. The cost of thla would be so prohibitive that
it would virtually wipe out considerable amounts of aay
monetary gain that the railroad would have by operating
this material.
Q Bow. shat occasion is there la the Barmy
Ibrd for a oar rider, of any of the other personnel there
to have to move any equipment on level or uphill as opposed
to downhill?
______> __The only situation that I could conceive
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would bo thoro Mgr bo on ooeoolon to winch o car book bjr
tho « o of 0 winch, book uphill. This would bo o
■oohoniool piooo of equipment actually doing th» work. To
my Knowledge no B u m / Xhrd btrokonon bos crop boon osjesd to
physically *wo o oor on tho l m l or uphill.
Q Mow, oro such winches provided in tho Barney
Yard when noododT
A Yea, sir.
TIB COUNT 1 Cross -examine.
CROSB-KXAKXXATXON
C. A. Qlass - Direst 490
nr MR* MOODY 1
Q Mr. Oloss, in other words if you hovo 0
cor that is «xtrowel/ difficult to novo, aeohoniool
equipment is node ovoiloblo for that portioulor oooosion
to assist in moving it in the Wormy TOrd?
A lbs, sir. The situation that soars to my
uind is if a oar is dropped froa the Borne/ Bad to the
thawing shed, or in the cose of Tier 5, if it is aisapottod,
we hovo winches that could pull it baok into the proper
position. To my knowledge thoro oro no winehes used or
in position to uae to start oars down off of the Wormy
Yard. We do this b/ 0 pinch bar type of apparatus end
grease the rails, _____
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491
Q To you icnovledge has that oauaed any undue
l>«p4ahlp on tha aen of any kind to operete this plash barf
A ho, sir. i havo, aymolf, as a brairaaaii
for 13 yoars, 1 havo uasd ons aany, aany tlaes to spot
^ w industry or start cars.
^ As a aattor of fast, they uso plash bars
in aany plaoos bosldss the Barney yard; don't thsyT
A lbs, sir. On tha forcer Walbaah *>»<■
was standard oqulpasat on every saboose.
Q Ian*t it true they do havo those plash bars
around on aany of the trains in the M a Vf
A That I oan't testify to. jI
Q how, as far as this occasion wh»n you,
rare oeoaalon perhaps when you havo a aaa la the laraay I M
c o w over and worn on the OT Tsrd for one shift, aaybe,
in an easrsensy, a m you on those oooaaleaa, you do Halt
it to one new aan, or one untrained aan on a srevf do you
not?
I
A *•»» •***• This only happened twloe in
22 souths that I aa aware of.
Q Isn’t It also true that tha organisation,
j
or the union, has agreed that a tlae olaia would net bo
put in on those occasions. They oould put in a tlae olaia,
as I understand it, because seasons who doesn't havo ths
seniority ooaa In and does a Job that he is not entitled
I1~)0
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C.A. glass - Cross *98
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to do, could not i o m o i m put in « tins oialm for that
partloular sight hours?
A YWs, sir.
3 And ths union, Z believe, has igrseil to not
do thatj have they not?
A air. That is ay understanding.
ft How, ana othsr thing. On ths hiring rats
or ths turnover in ths CBP Hard, san you give as an sstlasts
of ths turnover in nan on an annual basis in ths off lard?
A Z would say roughly between 20 anti 2* a n
par year fron now hires. Out of ovary 10 Z loss 3.
3 Moo, how aany nan ars thars on ths OK M ,
approx lasts ly, average?
A About 375.
Q Do you havs iaforaation regarding ths
Barney lard on the turnover?
A Me. Z have corresponded with Mr. Irving
who is in charge of the Barney lard, and Z dissues these
things all the tins, and it appears to bo shout equal.
3 About equal?
A Bsa, air.
3 Z believe you said you wars s Tiratamn at
one tins?
A 13 years, yes, sir.
— -ft--- And were you also a local union officer?
—
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C. A. Qiaos - Cross *96
Mr* Balton, you and I would hsvs had a hard tin
with It. And wa don't hsvs anything to do with
tho railroad. It waa how nany hlaak oats
how naay mat# oats and groan oats, and all
juafclod up la a sir*is, and assn thing teappansd.
I waa aonfuaad by tha tiaa I got out of iura.
NR. BUffCNt z triad tha aaaa in griggi,
and I toaic that tout and faliod it too.
COURT» i aa glad you don't ■«—«
owning up to it. I won't tall you what aaora X
aada on it.
NR. KlffQHi I would nawar qualify aa a
BT NR. waxmt
Q For tha parlod of tlno you hawa boon with
M h W, haa it boon priaarily with tha or ! M opoyutionT
A Tbo, air.
Q Now, what la tha basin for your krrawiadga
about what goaa on in tha Btnwy ihrdf
A Obaorvatlon and aonwarnation owar tha last
2 2 nonths.
Q Now, do you know whst training gaas on in
ths Barnsy lard for a now nan?
A I haws sowar boon lawolvad in it.
* f 72 a.
1
3
4
.")
(j
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
10
17
18
19
20
21
22
28
21
25
<*} How, hare you svsr reviewed the I
employment roads of the black employes who are employed
or have bean employed in the Barney Hud since your
aaaoeiation with N * v? i
A Bo, air. |
i
Q Do you know what their qualifications are?
i
A Bo, air.
Q Bftva you attempted to find out?
1
A Bo, sir. I
Q Do you think that the experience the
eaployes in the Barney lard gain would be helpful to than
in performing Jobs in the category of brekamen, conductor
and foreman in the 0T Yard?
A Helpful* yea* air.
Q Ae between a maw hire and a parson coming
from the Barney Yard, which would you prefer?
A The Barney lard brejoenen would undoubtedly
have more experienee than a new hire or a man off the
street, consistent with the duties or the functions that
ha parforas in the Barney Yard* such as the setting and
releasing of hand brakes* mounting and dismounting of IIequipment, and operating of a cut lever. Thame are vary
basic functions of a brakeaan.
* Do you have an opinion, Mb. Glass, as to
whether the work in the Barney Yard, la physically more
C. A. Glass - Cross 49 9
C. A. 01a m - Cp o m 500
2 I
8
ft
10
11
12
13
14
15 |
Hi II
1 7 !
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19 I
* j
21
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2.1
deaandlng than the work in the CT Yard?
A I have m m perfw ed cyeelf the work In
in* Barney Yard. I have had 13 yeara of experience aa a
OT braaeata and eonduetor, and 1 oaanot a m that tha work
la tha Bamay Sard fro* my obaervatlon la an/ hajpdar or aa
deaandlng *• tha work in tha CT Yard.
Q I aaa. I Mid, ph/aioally deaandlng»
A XWa, air.
Q And /our h a w would ba that you would ba
of tha opinion that it la not a m ph/alaall/ deaandlng la
tha Burnt/ Yhrd than It la in tha CT lard?
A That la right.
4 Do tha/ uaa tha plnah bar in tha Of Had
at all?
A I don't believe I hart observed an/ one
ualng ona. Wa hiava tha* around at various plaeaa. X hawa
tha* in tha yard offloat and on a09* ahop track plaaaa
of thla nature. But I don't recall right offhand see 1m
a CT brakenan uaa ona alnoe I have bean hare.
3 I think you aloe taatlflad thare are a
mwhar of tracks that a person working In tha Barney Yard
oust know. You gate a figure, I think, of a aaa thing
about 300?
THE CCWHTt Ba said 5 0 0, I ballava.
■— f
C. A. 0Is m -Cross 501
1 BY MR. BELTONt
2 Q 500 in the c r Yard?
3 A Tracks, ywe, sir. I Mid roughly 500
j
■i tracks in tbs thru Min yards, not sauntlng tbs Industry
1 1
5 tracks, interchange tracks and this sort of thing.
h Q Mow, is it your testimony, Nr. Class, that
1
•
they aust know these 300 different tracks at any one
8
I j
particular time?
9 A Its, sir. Be can go to work at Laaberta
10 Point yard and be moved to Part lock to do work, and moved
11 from Port look to Sewells point to do work, and you can go
12 out Into industrial all over the terminal and do work.
13
•
There is no specific area that a job is assigned to and has
.
14 to stay in that assigned area. They can be sent any pises.
15 and when they are sent the people on those jobs are
it, |
iexpected to know where they are going and how to get there.
I
3 So he should knew it at all tinesT
• ■
A Tbs, sir.
19 Q Could you give us the exsst number of tracks
20 ! la what we have been talkii* about m the OT Yhrd, the
21 exact number?
22 A No, sir. Z couldn't give you the exact
2.2 number of trucks. I roughly estimated 500 tracks in all
24 major yards. And, ss I Mid before, this doesn't count
2.“) j the industrial sidings, same 60 or 70, end the interchange
i
II
1
l:
II
U
1"
l(i
17
IS
IS
20
21
22
2.3
24
2.1
502
tracks, the other shop tracks, roundhouse tracks, Lamberts
Point piers, places like Norfolk Internetlocal Terminal
that I wouldn't hare the faintest Idea how may tracks they
have got. They have sane 27 warehouses, and certainly all
of these have tracks.
Q Are CT tralmasn expected to know the exact
meter of tracks they might be ealled upon to —
* *he exact number, no, air. They are not
expected to icnow the exact iwimor of tracks, bat they are
expected to be able, without help, to go from one track is
a given yard to another track in another given yard by
*at being instructed to taka ears from such and such a track,
go to such and suah a yard at auah and amah a track. They
arc expected to know marc to get the ears from and where to
put them.
Q Itr. (Haas, let me direct your attention to
your direct testimony. when you were llstli* the aeries
of things you said Of nan most know — suah as know
signals, interlocking rules, industries, fans, Intsreha^es.|
Do you recall going through that list with Mr. Worthington?
A Tee, sir.
Q Now, does that list apply to all brekesma.
Does it apply to all oondustera, and does it apply to all
foremen? I
A ____It applies to all trelnmes which Includes"" • — - * - - * -1
C. A. Glass - Cross
C.A.Glass • Cross 503
braksaen and/or conductors operating on tbs Of Thrd.i
Q What foras do bra lessen in the Of Yard use?
A Braksaen will fill out a OX-119. This is
a fora used by the train crow to show the aoveaeist of oars
! from a yard, or to an industry within an industry. Thisi
i fora is used by the agents office for the purpose of charging
for switching sores and iceeping track of the deaorrage, hem |
to bill a custoaer for eervioes rendered.
Q Do you know whether the braksaen in the
Barney Yard use any kind of foras?
I
A They don't use the 119. Z know this. If
they use any other fora I haws never eesn it in use. X
never observed it.
q I say have ashed you this, Mr. Glass, but
1st sa ask it again for verification. What kind of
training and breaking in period do you have fer a new nan
in the CT Yard braksaen?
A He goes through an initial introductory
I
class, if you will, conducted by aysslf end the safety
j
agent. He is aors or less given the fasts of life of
railroading at that class. Ha goes over the operating rules,
j the safety book of rules. He is physioally taken to the
roundhouse ares where he is introduced to s diesel
loooaotive and instructed in its basic function and j operation, how to aount and disaount it, its workable parts
*111 I
C.A. Class - Croat
that ha will be connected with as a brakenan. Ha is
takaa to the shop tracks. This is ths repair facility
I for railroad squlpnsnt where there is no aovensnt going on
at any tins and taught how to again eount and discount, the i
i proper position to be in when operating cut levers, ths
proper position to be in when applying a hand brake,
i
releasing a hand brake, how to oouple air. we explain the
different parts and different types of equipaent that he will!
eons in contact with. This period will last, depending on
|
the else of the class, upwards to four days. Then he is
required to take five student trips. This is, he goes out|
as a student. He is not ooupenssted for these student
trips. H# goes as a student with s crew. Ke is plaeed
with hand picked conductors that X pick personally who I
know are good safe railroad nan to further teach this boy
In the physical operation, the basic function of a yard
braksaan. He then has a 30 day probationary period. X
keep eloae tabs on him and check on his programa with the
I
conductors in the yard, and frcsi ay own observance. if he
passes this he is now an employe. If ha doesn't he is
I disqualified by ns. If he appears to be cluney or
i ;
awkward or irresponsive to instructions, I disqualify hin.
Q How, is there a period of tins over which
this initial training takes place, the classes that you
havef
I
4 -
C. A. glass - Cross 505
A The class Z hold, as Z said, depending
on tho iIm of the elans, lasts about four hours, where I
take each individual nan, one at a tine and toll bin those
things, teach hi* these things and demonstrate the*. Then
his student trips are five student trips, one per day. That
is five days. Then he has a 30 day period in which to
qualify. i
Q Mow, after the five student trips -- sell.
is he on the payroll while he is taking the student trips?
A ho, sir, he is net eoopensated for the
student trips until he satlafaetorily completes the*,
eight hours per trip. Then he goes on the payroll.
Q Mew, would you explain to the Court what you
seen by trip. That naans a full sight hour day?
A light hour shift, yea, air.
Q So wo oould bo talking about appraxlaatoly
six days of training before a person goes on probationary
status as a brakeann?
A Tea.
Q Hou, how long is this kind of training that
you Just described in effect?
A How long has it boon in offoot ?
Q Hlght. Z a* looking for a year, if you
can give m a year?
A Well, z ease to Mcrfolk in June 1969, and it
C. A. alasa - Cross
was In offset at Norfolk than. ii
Q That has boon your responsibility for tha
training since you hays bean with tha CT in tha sapsolty
i you are in?
|
A Yes, sir.
Q Now. you indicated that the accident rata
j in tha OT Yard is about three or four tinea what it is la
tha Barney Yard ?
A Yes, sir. Z base this oa ay knowledge ofI i
fck* 0* 37'a — that is a personal injury report — on the
nuaber turned in at either location, either facility. I
handle all of the CT 37's turned in in the 0T Yard. They
all scan in ay office.
I
Q Bare you investigated why you have a higher
i
rats of accidents in the OT Yard than you do in the Barnay
! Yard?
i
A Investigated, as such, night not be tha word.i
I think with ay railroad experience sad knowledge Z have aI
fair understanding of why they are highsr. There is
considerably core activity.
TH* COOKY* Well, basically there are acre
employes.
YHX WITNESSs Hare employes, yes. air.
This In itself la going to dlotate that there is
going to be acre.
506 j
I
C. A. Qlui - Croat 307
BY MR. BELY ON:
Q Have you Investlgatod to see what extent
< th. Mf«tjr rul.. m t c not bmn fellowd In th. u.ld.ftt. la
* the CT Yard?
A Oh, yes. That Is one of ay dally shores
to be on the loo* out, or awareness of safety rule
violations, and to talcs the neeesaary action to correct
them.
» i
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11 iI
12 ■
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14 |
ir, |
20
22 i
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24 |
You do have movement of cars in both yards j
la that correct, both In the Barney Yard a n d the CT Yardt
A Ybs, sir. cars in the Barney Yard,
basically, 99*9 per cent of the tine is golug to nove
railroad direction fron east, west to east. Zn the OT
Yard cars are going to be noved in any direction, In either
direction at any tine. in fact, this la a safety rule in
1teeIf, to expect this aovenent.
Q So you do have nan in both yards who my
be war icing around Moving ecjulpnuit ?
A Yha, It is highly graduated in the CT Yard.
4 Bow, do you think, Mr. glass, baaed on your
earlier answer to my question about your preference of a
Barney Yard nan over a new hire for jobs in the OT Yard, do
you think that the treining program that you Just described
need be as long, the initial training program for the
Barney Yard m ta, as they would be fo r the new hirer
C. A. Class - Cross
A Its, sir. Z think It would be, Cut to ths
! I
considerable enlargeneat of ths operation to nows fro* ths j
Bsrnsy Yhrd to ths sntlro terminal. Ths Barney TSrd Is
just ons sssll M|s»iit of ths sntlro tsndnsl ss s who Is.
i
! iAnd ss X sold before, ths Bsrnsy Ytrtf brakeusn would
basically know throw fuaotlons of s at TSrd brakenan's
dutlss. But X psrsonslly think that hs oust aasnan ths
j swsrsnsss of ths neveueat shout hi*. It Is ss enlarged
that X think hs should tako ths sans saount of studsat
trips, fss, sir, X do.
Q Vo 11, whst things do you think s Bsrnsy
TSrd son would ho hslpful to hi* if hs wsrs to go to ths
CT TSrd. Could you list ths* for ns, ons, two, throo, four.
A A Bsrnsy Xhrd braheuan knows how to nsuntI
and dlsaount nosing and/or standing squlposnt propsrly. is
knows how to apply sad rolosns hand brskss. H knows haw
'
! to hand la out levers, to rs loans s oar. And beyond this
X know of no parallel between ths duties of s Bsrnsy TSrd
hrsksonn and the dutlss of s Of braksnsa. Jt than are ji
any, X an unaware of then.
: j
Q Do you know, Mr. glass, of your own
! J
knowledge, whether on the Oceanians that you had Barney
TSrd euployes coning over to ths Of lard, sad ths critical
situations that you talked about'that they utilised hand
signals inassistin^um crow, the foresee, conductor la ths
I
509C. A. Clasa - Cross
i i
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5 I
!()
13 !
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IS !
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21 |
22 i
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2.3 |
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25 I
u o v e n e n t o f t h s t r a i n ?
A 1)0 I Know if they did thass things?
Q »i.
A To g o t t h a w o rk s c o o n p l i s h e d t h s y would h a v e
h s d to h a l p o u t a s a n s a b e r o f t h a c r a w . i t . t e n d s t o
r o s s o n t o s t s c o f i t t h e y d o n a . I p e r s o n a l l y h e r e n o t
s t o o d s o d w a tc h e d s B a r n e y H u rd b r a k a n a n p e r f o r u a s a CT
b r a k a n a n . A s I r e c a l l t h e tw o o c c a s i o n s t h a t i t h a s
o e o u r r e d i n t h e 2 1 n o n t h a I h a v e b e e n h e r e , o c c u r r e d e a t h e
t h i r d s h i f t . T h a t i s a l d n l ^ t t t o e i g h t . s i n c e I w o rk
f r o » s i x o ' c l o c k l a t h a a o r n i a g u n t i l s e v e n o ' c l o c k o r
a i g h t o'clock a t n i g h t , I aw h o n e i n b e d a t t h a t t i n s .
Q D o y o u k n o w , n r . C l a s s , w h e t h e r o r n o t t h a
B irm y Y a rd b r a k a n a n a t t i n e s u s e d t h e e l » w l s l a t h a
o p e r a t i o n f o r t h e i r w o rk l a t h e B a r n e y B i r d t h a t e r e
u t i l i s e d b y t h a OT B a rd n a n ?
A z n a v e n e w e r o b s e r v e d t h e B a r n e y Yard n m
g i v i n g a h a n d s i g n a l t h a t x h a v e e v e r a e o n a n y p l e a s o n
r a i l r o a d o r a n y o t h e r r a i l r o a d . I n f a c t , B a r n e y l a r d
h r a k e n s n a r e n o t r e q u i r e d t o h a n d l o s w i t c h l i g h t s a f t e r
******* w h ic h i s a t o o l u s e d t o g i v e s i g n a l s w i t h .
* W<HU4 l t • w r p r l e e f a n . Nr. C l a s s , t o l
t h a t o n a o f t h a n a n Nw> w e n t o v e r f r e n t h e B a r n e y Y a rd
t o t h e o r Y a rd t e s t i f i e d t h a t h e u s e d h a n d s i g n a l s o n t h a
a r e * t h a t h e w o rk e d f o r , s a d t h e s h i f t t h a t h e w o rk e d f e r .
gpq> m y
April 15. 1971 Ii j
li*t, pursuant to adjoumaant on yeatavday,
at nine-thirty A. N.
(Appearances, as heretofore noM.)
TH1 COURT: All right, gsntlaaen. *y notesj
lMt witness on |>it<rdt)r ts, f 1 rth
| witness for the HerfoiK and Western, Mr. c. A. alum, that
I i
h« had bsen axuinad and cross-essoined.
I
Xp. Worthington, ©all your next witness.
gAHUtA MICHAKL XXVIM. oslied as a wltaasa
by and on behalf of ttaa Norfolk aad Was tarn, balag first duly
sworn, tastifled as followsi
EIRJECT KXAKDUrrXOM
BY m. TPHMZRt
Q Would you stata your full nam and addrass,
plaaaa. air.
A Charlas Michael Irwin, 1355 Bolling Avenue,
Norfolk.
Q And by whoa are you employed, Xr. IrvinT
A Norfolk and Western Railway Oaapany.
W ll*.
515
Q How long have you been employed by ths
2 Norfolk and Western f
< A Fifteen years.
Q What la your present position with the
l| Norfolk and Western?
i
A I an assistant superintendent in charge of
I i
the coal operatlco in Norfolk. |
8 I Q And does your jurisdiction cover the Barney
s> | Xhrd In Norfolk?
| :
10 j A Via, sir, It does.
3 And hew long have you had this position?
A i have been assistant superintendent for
a year and a half, and prior to that X was trelnaaster with
11 the sane duties.
C. M. Irvin - Direct
Q And for how long were you tralnmster?
A Since Deoenber 1967.
20 !
4 Will yew describe the other jobs you have had
with the Norfolk and Western since you first beesas
eaployed, *nd the approximate tines of those jabs? j
A X began In 1936 as s section laborer, aad
have worked since then as s clerk# s brajoeesaa, s asohl n>
operator In the engineering department, s section foreMo
1
and assistant road mas ter and a roadaaater in the engineering
department.
£ Curing what period of time were you a
C . M. Irvin - Direct 516
braiccaen?
H
10
1 1
12
1.‘J
14
1')
10
A In the luoMr of 1958.
Q And where were yen 1 brekaamaT
A On the Norfolk end Western, Durham district
between Ljmohburg end Durban, North Carolina.
Q Now, in your capacity ae superintendent la
charge of coal operations, are you familiar with the duties
of Barney yard employee as well as CT yard s^loyesT
A Y»s, I am.
Q All right, sir. Is there any dIff arena#
in the duties performed by Barney Hard employes and these
performed by CT lard employesT
A TCs, there le quite s difference.
4 Would you describe the duties of s Barney
Yhrd brsiceman end ooagmre those with the duties of s 01
Xhrd bretceman.
A A Barney lard tarskeman'a primary duties or
Job is to move loaded ears of coal from the Barney yard to
serving Pier 5 and 6 at Lamberts feint to the rti^er so that
tha car can be dumped on the ships. in moving
from the Barney lard, a devise known as a ear mover la
>•>
2:1
.̂r)
used. it is a mechanical device that starts tha ear
rolling.
ns just s second on that point.
1* this such s devise se you have Justwhere la It.
317
described?
̂ that is i oar aovtr.
MR. TURNER: We would 11 Ice to introduce i
thla as the next number, Defendants' exhibit *uabcr.
TEE courti All right, air. Put a tag on
It. i‘ I
*nSE CLERK: It will be 21, Tour Honor.
(A car aover was narked Norfolk and western j
Exhibit Ho. 21 and received in evidence.)
BY HR. TURNER:
Q Mr. Irvin, does this devise have other
naaes or fcnlcknaaas in addition to ear never?
A It is called a pinch bar, and it nsy have
sons other naaes I an not aware of an/ more.
TEE COURT: it probably has seen colloquial !
naaes used in the trade.
C. M. Irvin - Direct
BY MR. TURNER:
Q Have you ever heard of it referred to as a
teaser?
A i understand that the C 4 0 Railroad
employes call it a teaser.
Q Okay, sir. While ws are on the sub Jest of
this car cover, are you familiar with how it worm?
$18
A Yea, air, I am.
'4 would you show us how it wanes?
A The oar mover is placed on the rail under
neath the wheel of the ear. When pressure is applied
downward on this ear mover it applies considerable force te
j the lever coming up under the wheel of the eaarv and start lag
the wheel moving upward and forward, of course, and actually
will start a car moving if It la on the downward grade.
<« All right. Just leave it there. Z think
you were describing that the operation of one of these
devices is part of the brakeman's duties. Will you
continue with the brakeman's duties.
A This device Is used to start ears rolling,
as I mentioned, and also to enable the Barney Yard bra Iceman
to uncouple two cars. When two or more oars are coupled
together on a downward grade, the railroad term la known
| aa scratched, and in order to be able to lift the
uncoupling lever and separate these two ears, this plneh
oar la used to move the car bask uphill allowing the ear
to be separated. It la then used, if necessary, to start
the oar rolling toward the coal pier. It la about e
one per cent grade that the ears roll to te the duapers
on both Pier $ and 6.
In addition to this, Barney Yard brakemen
have to move cuts of oare from, oh, $ to 2$ downhill to
C. M. Irvin - Dlr«ot
519
j the east end of the Berne/ Yard so thet the coal is at the
•••fc immediately available for Moving to the dumpers.
The/ also have to ride ears.
By east end, are /on referring to railroad
direction?
A Railroad direction, yes.
h By the ooapass that would be west end?i
i
A That is right.
Q All right, sir.
A The/ also have to ride oars, both loaded and
•apt/ from the Pier 6 duapers to the eapt/ yard. The/ havei
to ride ears from Pier 3 Barney Yard to the Barney pit where
a oar is spotted, to be tahen on Pier 5 itself. Pier 5 la
quite an older pier than Pier 6, and it requires aore
aanual operation.
i
We also use Barney Yard breheaan in what
we call our hiehbaeh stations located railroad direction
east of the dumpers theasclvcs on Pier 6. We have a nan
j at this, at a similar location on Pier 5. At Pier 5 the
Barney Yard bra iceman classifies cars. He has an
electronic device that sends a signal to the empty yard
car retarder operator to tell him what classIflestion or
what icind of ear it is, and thereby putting it in the proper
tree* in the empty yard. On Pier 6, on the hi debacle
station the Barney Yard braheaan separates ears, if
C. M. Irvin - Direct
]
V
3
H
necessary, so that, for instance, a c * 0 and If t V oar
I can *0 to the aaptj yard in two separata trades.
They also open the knuoicle on the trailing
car on the single oar, whichever the oase nay be, so this
car will couple to the ear it eosns in contact with in the
enpty yard.
C. M. Irvin - Direct 52
<4 Mechanically what is involved in separating
8 !
9
10
12
13 i
the cars?
A A CUP lever, an uncoupling lever has to be
pulled upward to separate the cars.
Q And you mentioned on one pier there is sons
classification of cars. is that by the carrier nanad on
the car?
A By the carriers one classification, and
15 naybe the car la in bad order and has to go to the shop.
That would be another. And there are various classifications
17 ! of enpty hoppers.
Q Are there other duties of the Barney Tbrd
19 j braxemen?
20 A There nay be other alnor duties, but I
believe I have explained in general the duties. They have
2 | to be actually Knowledgeable of Barney Yard and the trades
2 : in the enpty yard where they nay ride cara, in the area
21 of the dunper.
Q All right.
H10%.
A There is on# more Job I failed to mention
on the entering end or the railroad direction, the Meat end
j
of the dumpers, that a Barney Yard brskeaan la required to
Keep the knuckles of oars on the dumper oloeed to that two
lloads being pushed on the dumper will not couple or connect
theaselves with the two eaptles to be pushed off.
4 Now, how doee this contrast with the duties
C. M. Irvin - Direct 521 j
of a CT lard braiceaan?
A The job of releasing and applying hand
brakes and getting off and on equipaent for the two yards,
CT and sarney Yard are quite similar. As far as the areas
in which we operate, the CT enployes have to be faalllar
with not only the Barney Yard and the e^pty yard, but tha
areas at Laaberta Point where we store coal, the areas at ')
Portlock and Sewells Point where we handle aerohandlse
freight, and the areas at Sewells Point idiere we handle
coal. It la quite a large area. And mine they have to
be faalllar with the rules of the railway ooapaay in
getting from a point such as T. a aborts Point to Portlock,
' and Portlock to Sewells Point. The duties haaioally are
slailar. There is quite a bit aore area covered with the
CT enployes. It la different equipment handled, Z night
add, because wa handle strictly coal, of course, at thaI
coal piers, whereas the CT brakenan aay handle various types
of equlpaent. ____ _ _____ ___________
<n( a>
I
C. M. Irvin - Dlreot 522
Q Is knowledge of different kinds of
required, such at interchange rules, safety rules, grcd*
crossing regulations and that sort of thing roqulrod in tho
| CT Yard, to your knowledge?
A Y«s. Th* CT trainmen intorohanga oars with
sovoral dlfforont railroads In Norfolk. Thsy have to bo
aware and snow the rules of Interchange. They have to be
•****• of the safety rules, aa do the Barney Yard people and
the operating rules, as I have stated, particularly
Interlooking rules are an Important part of a CT trainman's
duties. He has to be - he coass in cootaet with signals
almost dally in his duties, and he has to knew the
signals.
<4 how, let's move now to the difference
between. If any, between the Barney Yard eonduetor or
foreman and the CT Yard conductor or foreaan.
A All right. First, the Barney lard foreman
le responsible for, from two to sometimes ss many aa ten
men, In moving the ooel from the Barney yard to the
dumpor. He takes instructions from the clerical
employee, actually setting up a mixture of ooal on the
vessel, end orders the ooal from a particular track in the
Barney Yard, from his Barney Yard brake men. He usee a
loud speaker system, and also s light scoreboard, we call
it, similar to a football scoreboard, to order the coals
7 17 K
C. M. Irvin - Direct 323
I from ths various tracks in Pier 6 Barns/ yard. Is has to
***** osrtaLn that the cars coming from the Baras/ yard aro
0l*ar' ladder at the east and of the /ard before another
car Is ordered, to avoid a derailment. He alas is
responsible for lining up what is known as doad coal, ooalI
bsln* removed from the Barns/ yard that is left over from
the loading of a vessel, back to the storage /ard.
A foreman or conductor In the Of yard*
i
again, has to be quits familiar with the rules of
operating trains on our main lines on the terminal. And
he haa to know approximately 300 plua storage trecks st
Lamberts Point, plus approximately 115 tracks st Sewells
Point, and about 45 tracks st Portlock. You have to be
familiar with not only the operation of coal, but also of
merchandise freight.
<4 Can you compare the responsibility of
I
Barney Yard conductors with the CT Yard conductors.
A 1 would say that the recpcnalbilltlca arc
similar. a Barney yard conductor generelly ham marc mam
under his jurisdiction on a given shift. He may have as
nany as ten man, whereas a conductor has, a CT conductor1i haa only two braksman. Normally an engineer and perhaps a!
| fireman. The main area of difference in responsibility,
however, is the scops of the area that the two different
Jobe work, and the knowledge of the mors technical rules
'/13k
C. M. Irvin - Direct 524
that tha CT department conductor has to know to be abla to
operata efficiently and safely.
Q Co you feel there la any significant
j difference in responsibility over a train erew of a Moving
train as opposed to the movement of coal cars in tha Barney
Yard?
A There is a difference in responsibility,
again, eonearning tha knowledge required to move these
trains. People can get killed in either place if the
individual conductor doesn't know his job. But the CT
conductor has to know quite a bit more technical rules
and et cetera.
4 Moving now to another subject area. I
guess we ought to first go over car retarder operators.
Would you compare those Jobe in each yard.
A We have two different types of car
i retarder operator Jobs for tha Barney Yard personnel.
First, anc the most complicated, I might say. Job, la
located in the empty yard. This ear retarder operates*
is responsible for the classiflostion and tha handling
of empties coming from both Pier 5 and 6 dumpers. He useI
to be fully familiar with the layout of tha empty yard and
know the operation of the coal pier, and pay partleular
attention to weather conditions and othar conditions that
{ affects the Movement of free rolling empty ears. It la
W / a
C. M. Irvin - Direct 525
■ n automatic system, In essence, but It requires quite a bit i
of att ant Ion and knowledge from the employe worldly thla
Job.
Q All right.
A Wa alao hava Barney Yard pit oar retarder
operators. Thaao employe* are located at the foot of the
incline leading to Pier 6 drapers. One on the north aide
and one on the south aide. These operators are
responsible for retarding cars or stopping them with a
pneumatic braking system, when the care roll from the
Barney Yard to the Barney pit. They are responsible for
classifying oars or punching the classifleation directly
Into an electronic system so that the cars may go onto the
proper track In the empty yard. These Jobs at the Barney pit
*re required to close the itmiokle on the leading car
on the dumper so that the two loada do not ooupls to the
two empties. These are the major duties of these two
jobs.
In the CT Yard we have one location that
! requires a ear retarder operator. That la in the loaded
classification yard. This Is where we switch miscellaneous
Tidewater coal. We have email blocks of coal that one1 I
or two ears have a kind that we try to make into blocks
of ten oars. This yard, the loaded classification yard
holds about 900 osrs, and this la tha location whore ua
-mj,
i
C. M. Irvin - Direct $26
switch this cosl. The duties of this car retsrder
operator's Job are similar to the duties of the car
retarder operator in the empty yard for the Barney yard
personnel. The employe working there must be familiar
with the layout of the yard, of course, and the movement
of the cars ccmlng from the hump.
There is, however, only one track: leading
to this yard, whereas there are three traclca leading to
the empty yard, naming three oars to be coming at the a m
over there, whereas only one at a tins in the leaded
claaalflostion yard.
<4 How many ear retarder operator positions
are there in the CT Yard?
A we have three, one for each shift and a
relief Job.
3 How about in the Barney yard?
A Let's see. we have three regular positions
in the empty yard, and relief, and six regular positlean
at the Barney pit, and two reliefs, I believe, in correct.
<4 Are all of these Jobe in an enclosed area?
A They are all, both la the CT Yard and the
Barney Yard.
4 All right, sir. I would life* to move to
another subject concerning the charges made by the
railway company for certain services. Are you familiar
C. M. Irvin - Direct 527
with the tern line haul charge?
A Yes, I a«.
4 Could you deaorlbe briefly what a line haul
charge naans in the way of billing. !
I
A This la a charge speaking strictly of coal |
levied on a ton of coal to move this coal from the coal
field in west Virginia, Virginia, Kentucky, wherever it
may be to Morfolk. It is roughly $5.00 a ton.
4 Well now, line haul, the term line haul
charge applies to other types of freight} does It not?
A It does.
3 And what does the oustoner gat, or how
far does the coal aove Just for the line haul charge?
A The $5.0o a ton novea the coal from the nine;
to the Barney Yard, or to the top of the Barney Y*rd.
Proai there we have other charges that taka over In ths
actual duaplng of coal.
4 But for other types of asrehandlse that
would be hauled in boxcars, where dees the line haul
charge take it?
A from the point of origin to the delivery
track where the consignee will unload the oar.
Q Mow, for coal that la placed at the top
of the Barney Yard, what additional charges are there,
or possible additional charges are there between the tine i
C. M. Irvin - Street 528
the coal la placed at the top of the Barney fhrd and the
tin* It la loaded on the vessel?
A There la always a charge for duaplng the
coal which la - - well, straight flat draping on large
open weasel, six and a half cents a ton. Also there la
s charge for trlaaing coal on a vessel, and also
possibly a charge for blending ooal. There weald, at
tinea, be three eeparete chargee.
4 Weald any of than# extra charges ever
apply to general Merchandise plaeed in the LSafcerta point
yard after the line haul charger
A Tea. At tinea we anload or daap at oar
ooal piers sand, or gravel or ao forth, mass dashing
charges would apply there. But to strictly aarahandlse
freight, no.
4 It would only apply for things handled
through the coal piersj la that right?
A That la correct.
* Now, do part of your duties involve the
screening and hiring of applleaats for the Barney lard
and/or the CT Yard?
A Yea, they do.
<4 Can you describe what function yea have
In the screening or hiring of applieants in both yardsT
A I aa primarily concerned with hiring
H 1K ̂
B«rney Yard personnel, which I have been doing for c o m
three years. The general yardmaater*s office taaes
applications, and the general yardnaater will screen
through these applications. We will send the people to
the doctor if they pass the police oheck or physical
examination. And in the meantlee I will tala to these
people nyself, if I deem necessary, and see in my opinion
they would be a dasirable employe. I do this primarily
at the Barney Yard, but I have also done s good bit of it
in the CT Yard.
Q Now, in the time that you have been engaged
in screening and hiring applicants, have you ever mods any
preference one employe over another just on the basis af
his raea?
A No, sir, I have not.
<4 Would that apply to both yards f
A Yss, air.
Q Have you made s conscious attempt ts try
to have both races work in the Baras/ Yard?
|
A We have since I have been at TiMsrlrs Feint
coal piers, because we had a preponderance of black
employes in the Barney Yard. We have oonseloualy tried
to hire more white people to balaaoe this racial up, and
we have done so in the laet couple of years.
j
Q How does the pay between Barney Yard and
C. M. Irvin - Dlreot 539
10
I !
. I
CT y#ix5 compare ?
A it is the sane for an eight hour period.
Q And in each job classification?
A Yea, sir.
<4 The Job of yardnaster la a m a n a g ewnt
position?
A It la.
^ Are there any blacic yiilnsstsrsT
A We have a black yardnaster at Laaharta
Point coal piers assigned to the second shift, and two
relief yard masters.
«i What is the nans of than?
A Matthew Peanort.
* Do you know what his work experience has
been before he beeaae yardnaster?
A Yes. He started as a — with the jg a ¥
as Barney Yard brakenan. Proa there to a conductor and
car retarder operator. From there he wae appointed
yardnaster.
Q So he case up through the Barney
wae appointed yardnaster?
A Yes, he did.
*2 Who are the two relief yardMsters
mentioned who are black?
A Robert Wilson is the relief
SCXJa
c. M. Irvin - Direct 530
you
531
presently assigned to a Barney lard foreman's Job,
Joseph Fencer la the other roller yardman ter
normally a Barney yard braiceaan.
Q All right. Are you familiar with, or
does part of your Job Involve discipline procodurea in
both the Barney yard and CT yard?
A Yea. A considerable part of my duties arc
Involved in discipline.
Now, have you personally made any
distinction, or do you know of any distinction made in
severity of discipline or type of discipline Just on the
basis of race?
A There has been none, no.
Do you have an opinion aa to, or baaed on
your knowledge, do you know which yard work la acre
dangerous. That la, whether work In the Barney lbrd or
CT Yard la the more dangerous?
A i would have to consider the work la the
CT Yard quite a bit more dangerous than the Barney yard
j
woric.
Q W*y would you think it la mare dangerous?
A Because it involves a good bit more moving
equipment. We are moving care and engines continuously
on the CT yard, working about, on Lamberts Point, maybe
15 or 20 crews at one time. The movements of theaa
SO lx.
C. N. Irvin - Direct
53*
crews often coincide, and, on the m u m tree* from tine to
tine, thereby noticing the work quite haaardeus.
4 Are you Involved from tlM to tine in the
furloughing and recalling Barney Yhrd employes?
A Yea, I am.
Q Are you ever involved in the furloughing
and recalling of or Yard employes?
A I am.
Q Would you explain why furloughs take plaee.
Why are men furloughed say in the Barney Yard or in both
yards?
A well, in both places the furloughing of
.
men work identically. There la a different set up, of
course, In each place. But we Mint a In to supplemant our
regular forces what we call an extra list. we have an
extra Hat of brakemsn in tha CT lard, and an extra list
of brakeMn in the Barney Yard. When business falls off
for one reason or another, the laek of vessels, the I
decline sometlmss of merchandise freight, these extra
assigned employes will not maks 40 hours a weak.
There la an agreement. Tha agree ms nt is
identical at both places, the CT and tha Bamay Yfcrd, that
if the extra a m is not asking 40 hours per week, this
extra list can be adjusted so that the senior eaployes
on the list can metes 40 hours, or aa much as they can Mhe.
S Cl a
C. M. Irvin - Direct
C. M. Irvin - Direct 533 j
V reduoe tha list at the request of th« local
representstIves of the Brotherhood that we arc dealing
with.
Q You naan that in tha Barney Yard tha local
chairman of 974 would aaic you to furlough ao mnj men?
A That la right.
Q All right.
A Ve worn it out how nany mmn, according to
tha buainaaa that la forocaat and what we expect.
4 And than what praclpltatea a recall?
A in the oaaa of tha coal plera today* let’a
aay we didn't have any vesaela at all. Tomorrow or tha
next day wa nay have five or alx or tan vessels. We need
•ore atn to keep the railroad company free paying
overtime, ao wa recall theae employee.
'■4 la it beneficial to tha railway oo^any
to furlough nan?
A Mo* air. The railroad deeen't gain aay
benefit from it. it ooeta us quite a bit in paper work
from tine and ao forth furloughing theae nan* and whan
buainaaa warrants calling than back* tha railroad does
not benefit at all.
Q Are you faadliar with tha rules
concerning tha tine needed to annul a shift in order to
avoid paying a nan for the shift?
So3 3̂
C. M. Irvin - Direct 534
4 yea.
Q How much load tin* do you have to give In
the Barmy I*rd?
4 The shirt has to bo cut off throw hours
prior to Its boginning.
4 Is there any different rule in the CT D M T
A go, they are both the sam.
4 I would like to novo now to the subject of
the air hose work. Before Mureh 1, 1968, was any Barney
lard nan required to do air hose work?
A Ho, he was not.
Q Since that tins, since March l, 1968, have
Barney lard asn done air hoae work?
A They have. They bleed air from oars on
occasion.
Q I want to refer you to Exhibit 6. This la
Plaintiffs' Exhibit 6, and specifloally to Psge 38 of ttet
exhibit.
For the reward, X believe this would
actually be in Exhibit 7, which is in the earn folder.
(Ha that paga I believe you will see there
is a paragraph Humber 4 called air hoae, et cetera.
"4 . Foremen and helpers will be allowed
an arbitrary of 40 cents in addition to all otter
compensation for each shift or tour of duty."
SOVx.
n
C. M. Irvin - Direct 535
Now, shipping that next sentence.
"They will whan required, in addition to
all other duties, and without additional
ooapensetlon, parforn any or all of the following
services during a tour of duty i couple and/or
uncouple air ..."
I will atop after thia. Sven now are
people required to couple or uncouple air?
A No. I have had no occasion ainoe I have
been in Norfolk whore a Barney Yard nan waa required to
couple or uneouple air.
<4 But aignal and atoan hoae connections, and
wort incident thereto, la any of that Involved in the
Barney lard?
A No, it la not.
Q Shipping down to the next one, chain and
unchain ears in the process of handling or to be handled,
couple and/or uncouple vestibule curtains, nark oars. la
any of that work required to be done in the Barney Yard ?
A Occasionally a Barney Yard eeploye will be
required to chain a car for uoveaent, yes, air.
q And the next one is bleed off air fron
care, and I understand that fran what you said Barney Yhrd
nan do that?
A They do.
5 0 5 -
Q Whet percentage of care in the Barney lard
require the bleeding of air?
A It la very unusual to put oare on the
Barney Tard with air on then. I would aay one per cent.
Very rare.
4 One per cent of the ears require bleeding
of air?
A Yea, one out of one hundred.
Q Would you describe briefly what is — X
will finish this one first.
The next item is handle weigh bills,
et cetera. Is aay of that involved in the Barney Yard?
A go.
Q The next eentenee let
"They aay be required also to apUet down
switches aad/or ounce ulnar repairs to twitches
In connection with wortc being done by them aa
I
has been the practice."
Do you know if any of that work is involved
in the Barney Yard?
A Yes. This la the aorual part of their
dutlea. It is acute thing they do everyday.
Q What la involved in bleedit« air frou a
car?
A A bleed rod, in railroad terminology, is
C. M. Irvin - Direct 53$
1
537
pulled. That activate* the release valve releasing the
air from a cylinder on the car, thereby releasing the
braics.
Q So it is just a natter of pulling a lever?
A That is right.
Q Mow long does it tans to bleed air fron a
oar?
A Depending on the car, between thirty
seconds and a minute.
Q Is all this involved in the effort of the
bratcenen, or just in permitting the air to come out of
the oar? j
A Mo. During this thirty seconds to sixty
seconds, the braxnaan aunt continually pull on the
bleeder rod. He nost hold it out until the air is all
exhausted.
Q How aueh force is involved or strength
is required?
i
A It is a very little amount of force. A II
snail child could easily pull it, a normal bleed rod.
m . TURNER t Mill you picas# a m o r
Nr. Moody's questions.
MR. MOODYi be have no questions. Your
Honor.
THB CCKIRTi C r o s s , m>.
C. N. Irvin - Direct
C. N. Irvin - Direct 538
NR. BKLTOH: Nay we haw Juat a mn— nt,
Tour Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
CROSS -EXAMXJUerXOlf
I
BY MB. BALL5R:
Q Nr. Irvin, I think you stated you wartoad
aa a brake man at one point in your career at tha Norfolk
I
and Western. I am not aura I picked up where you ware.
Will you state that?
A it was on tha Durham line, the Durham
district of the Norfolk and Western Railway Company.
w Have you worked as a yardman in tha Norfolk
terminal7
A No, I have not.
>4 Mow, with regard to your atat amenta a taut
I
tha nature of the work in the Barney Yard, an I reeall yeu j
described the oeceelona on which this pinch bar or oar
I
mover could be uaed. You said it waa primarily, X believe,
to start moving oars downhill! is that ocorrect7
A That anc the act of uncoupling the car.
0, And in uncoupling tha oars it would be
necessary, at times, to move them a short distance uphill7
A That la rigit.
Q
A
Q
loaded?
A
<4
In order to gat the coup la opanT
Right.
C. N. Irvin - Croes 33*
Do you have any idea what a eeal ear is
I bag your pardoaf
Do you have any idea of the weight of a
loaded eoal oar?
* Tea, air. The average weight of the eeal
in a coal oar now la 77 net tone. The ear itaelf will
weigh between 25 and 30 tens.
Q Maw, you alae eta ted that in the work on
Piar 5, I believe, a Barney yard nan uaea none kind of
an eleetronle device to olaaelfy care?
A That ia correct.
Q Could you deecrlbe how that electronic
device works.
A It ia a panel with aone buttons and
lights that thia Barney yard brefcenan punches. Te
illustrate, for instance, we have a c a 0 ear. Be will
punch the button eorreaponding to i o ft 0 car aoning Aren
Pier 5 duaper. There wea aet up an eleetronle code tc
tell the eyeten classifying cars in our eapty yard that
a C h 0 oar ia coning, put the Oft 0 ear in the trees
designated for the rest of ths C ft o care. It ia an
autoaatle system, but the brekenen has to punch thc butte**
S 0 °| a.
C. M. Irvin - Cross
T VI
j
a ■i
a i
U !
1 0 jI
1 1 I
12 :
1"
I 1
r>
i t .
IT
IH
0)
20
5*0
A .
SUmUSPOhUin;fr̂ fch»^ r ;, ; ZT7^1lTl[JWi
Q How doss the button correspond with ths
Doos it correspond to ths car ltsslf or to ths location
ths oars?
A Ho. zt corresponds to ths car. Vs
buttons for various six**, 100 tons, 85 tons, 50 tons,
H h w ears, and also buttons corresponding to foreign
equipment that we nonwlly handle.
of
%;i*k • '--.Q- r ,‘V • ‘ i' •• y.; .. •How, he punshss those ■ ■ i ■ i.. ■ >. juj , ■ > i .
buttons so this
panel board at what point as the ear Is in Pier 5?
In what area of Pier 5?
A As the ear leaves whet is known as
oradle or elevator on pier 5* The eer passes the
Yard brakesnn end he looks at the ear and sees what
It Is, and punehes the button.
q Are the oars is notion at the tlmT
q And the Barney Yard brenems Identifies it
and pushes the appropriate button to classify Itt
A That la correct.
q How, with respect to ths duties of Barney
Yard brakeaen on Pier 6, you stated that a Barney Hard
breaeoan classifies ears there both by carrier and by
separating out of bad order. Bow, what Is a bad orderT
A Mo, you aisunderstood m.
5/Pk
C. K. Irvin - Cross
THE COURT» Hs said bsd ordsr. That
■cans ons that hsd to bs repaired.
HE NR. BALLEHi
k A bsd ordsr is a bad ear?
A A shop oar, but you aisundsrstood tbs
statement, I bslisvs. A Barney lard braxenan doesn't
classify thsss ears. This U dons by ths ear rstardsr
operator at ths Barnsy pit.
3 I see. How doss cos recognise a bad order?
A By a tag. It is a notice, an orange solar
that we are using now, about, oh, 4 x 3 inches on ths side
of ths ear. It is readily visible.
Q When does the retarder operator notice
this?
a Hs sees it when the ears are 1— dlatcl jr
in front of hia at the Barney pit.
vi I see. Are they at rest ox noving at
|
that point?
A They are at rent when hs classifies the earn.
Or normally, I night say, they are at rest.
Q Haw, you stated that the CT Hurd brass—
has to be familiar with the Barney Ihrd aa wall as with
the areas of the CT Yard ?
IIA That la correct.
5*1
511a.
C. M. Irvin - Cross 542
Q Why doss he have to bs familiar with ths
Barney Yard operation?
A Ths coal that is placed on ths Barney Yard
is shoved up an incline with looomotlves, diesel,
electric looomotlves. The hraicessin and conductors shove
this coal on the Barney Yard. They nay be in touch with
I
froa two to fifty ears. They oust know the physical
layout of ths Barney Yard so that they know the proper
trades to put the coal in. They act on instructions free
the yardmasters.
I
*4 I see. Do they come in the Barney Yard
then when they brine the ooal up onto the hump?
A They do, yes, air.
4 How seny operations do they perform
inside the Barney Yard?
A They shove the eoal onto the Barney Yard.
If the trades they ere shoving in will not held the amount
of ears they hive, they have to pull bach ever ths swlteh
to that trees and put ths sxoesa amount of cars in another
trade. After that is dons thsy Immediately depart from
the Barney Yard and go normally to get anothmr draft ef
care to be put on the yard.
Q Sc they may perform several operations
with switching and putting different tracks inside the
Barney Yard ? __ _______________
5 U ̂
A That is right. Tis up hand brakes,
release hand braicea and hand la switches whan putting cars
on tha Barney Yard.
<4 Mow, you also stated that tbs CT lard m b
have safety rules which they need to Know?
A They do.
3 Do you knew whether the Barney lard m b
have safety rules?
A They do. One and the saat. Both
safety rule books are identical.
Q Do you know whether Barney lard mn use
signals?
A We use signals on the Barney lard, as I
have described in the scoreboard type affair to neve ears.
also use s fora of hand signals to eove care
theaaelvee on the Barney !trd, signals between the
brakewtn theMelvee.
Q Vow, are thoee signals also used in the
CT lard?
A Yea, air, they are.
4 Are these the sane signals, aoea of than?
A we have standard hand slgnala that we use.
The people In the CT lard come in contact with quite a
few different hand signals that the Barney yard people de
not have to use.
C. M. Irvin - Cross 543
5 13?-
C. H. Irvin - Cross
3 Now, about the conductors In the two jrtrii.
I think you stated that thalr function Is prlMrlly to
supervise the brakemen working under then?
A That Is correct.
*4 Mow, each conductor, as I understand It,
is the head of a crew?
A Yes.
4 And I think you also stated that in the
Barney Yard there are two to ten nan In this crew?
A That is correct.
4 New, is Just one of then a conductor?
A Just one, that la right.
4 Aims the rest are brakeaen?
A That la right.
4 And In the main yard what la the
composition of the orew?
A Normally It la a oonduotor, two bra icemen
and an engineer.
Q I aee. Now, that engineer la not a
member of the yardman's craftj la he? I
A No, he la not.
4 So that the only men who are yardmen on a
crew in the CT Yard are the conductor and the two bra kerne n?
A That Is right. These are known aa
trainmen.
5*4
C. M. Irvin - Cross !*5
4 Is the Barney Yard conductor responsible
for moving cars?
A Yes, he is.
4 And is there a denser in the movement of
ears in the Barney Yard?
A Yes, sir.
4 And is it one of his responsibilities
to assure this movement is safe?
A That Is correct. That is his primary
reaponsibllity.
Q You have testified that there are ear
retarder operators in both yards, in various locations,
and that the Barney Yard la two locations. One of than,
I believe, in the empty yard. And that ha controls an
automatic system] is that from the tower?
A Yds, it la.
<4 And in order to perform that Job he needs
to know the layout of the tracks?
A He does.
4 In the empty yard?
A Yes.
<4 How many tracks are there?
A 35 classification tracks.
4 And you have also stated that he works with
5!‘J A
moving cars?
5*6
A Hs doss.
4 Directing snd retarding their roveneatf
A ms.
<4 And that there ean be several ears aeving
at the sans tint I
A There can be as aanj as three ears or
three groups of ears noving by hin into the yard at the
sans tint, yes.
4 Dees this situation occur in the course
of duties of a or Yard ear retarder operator?
A Mo, he does not. Momtlly one to fear
ears coupled together at a tias move by this ear retarder
operator.
Q Mow, you said that sand and gravel is
haadled through the eoal piers. Xs that in the Laaherta
Point facility?
A Tee, it la.
H And la that part of the CT mrd?
A Sell, in order to handle, to duap aand
over our Pier 5 facility, let's say, the sand arrives free
a point wsst of Morfolk. It is handled after it arrives
In Norfolk by CT crews. They put it on the Barney mrd
siailar to the wey we put coal on the Barney mrd, and
from there it la handled by the Barney mrd employes far
dunping. ____________________________________
C. M. Irvin - Cross
5 l ( o ^
C. N. IrvJLn - Crons 547
3 Then you art saying that tha tunny h h
aaawi nano in seal s*ad ?
A lta.
Q And gravel?
A v» dw* a cargo of sand, 5,000 tana, infs
nay, aayto naan a year.
^ how, you also hay* given anas test lastly
atot ths job olaaalfleation of yurdaastsr. in that
position within tbs Jurisdiction of ths WTO.
A (Ms response.)
3 In other words, is ths yardnaatsr a o n
parsont
A ho. A yardanstar on ths Mrfolh and
1
Western hallway Oenpany doss not wort on eoatrsst. Is
la an appointed supervisor working for ths railroad
00qpaay Itself. He Is not affiliated with a union.
3 so hs la a as tour of asnagsu— t r
a tot is right.
3 Are you familsr with the faetore that go
into the appoint Mat of a yardnaatsr ?
A I an.
3 toat is considered by the sotMsny when it
naioss those se Iso t ions?
A The ability of the enployes, nunhsr one,
his age. tfe don't want an employe as s yardnaatsr that
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0. M Zrrln - Cross
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548
is al^steen years old, lot's say. His age has a bearing
os it, sad othsr alnor things. Bat his ability is of
nsjor iaportaase.
Q Zb seniority oos of tho«o footersT
A NO.
Q Is experience otto of thoso factors?
A fts.
Q Wait jobs do ytrdasstors hold bsfors thsy
bsoows yardnasters. low do thsy gain this oxporionoo
that tho eoapany waists then to haver
A Boras lly a yardaastor will start his
railroad oarsor as a brtiisaan or as a clerk. Z would say
99 par coot of all yardaastars ess* froa thoso two groups
of oaployss. Bratoeaan to conductor to yardaastor, and
olorh to yardaastor.
Q In tho oaso of Norfolk torainol, do you
here any idoa of boa aany of tho yardaastor s who work thoro
prosontly wars originally hraasasn, and how aany vara
originally elorfcst
A It would tans as a fow nlmatos to figuro it
out. But roughly speaking, froa all tho people, It is
pro tty close to half and half. Vo try to hasp it that
way.
Q Now, after a nan is appointed to bo
yardaastor froa being a clerk or bratcoaan, does he retain
5 1 ^
0. N. Irvin - Crons 5^9
ssnlorltjr on tbs teaks— a»a list or tbs clerk's llstf
A Hs doss.
Q So that if vs looked st tbs seniority
rostsrs ns eould tall where thsss aen stood before tbsy
besaas yardasstsrsf
A Us, sir, you sould.
Q Do f w mow bow a n y yardoasters tboro
srs currently in tbs Norfolk toruinsl, and Z an latorsstod
in Nfaltf ft rrlasst ora ss opposed to rsllof yordusstorT
A Strictly spooking, yardaaetere, roughly
18.
Q Now, I wont to show you soplas of two
seniority rosters which srs la owidoaoo ss Plaintiffs1
ixhibits 20 sad 21. Hasher 20 is tbs ssalorlty roster
for tbs Barney Hurd ss of January 1 of this year. Can
you tell as bow aony asa on that roster bars a notation
under tbs oolaaai labelled "NairWs* that they bars been
par Quoted to yurdaaater?»
A QUO.
Q Now, I boilers yea testified that that
was Nr. PsaaertT
A has.
Q Do you knew when he was appolatedt
A let us sss. In the latter part af 1966,
1 believe * air._______________________________________
511a.
C . M. Irvin - Crons 550
*
A
4
And you testified that he 1* blaok?
Ks la.
Mow, are there any other m o listed on
thla roster who have been appointed yardaastsr?
A There are two more sen on this roster thst i
work extra or relief yardaasters. None have been
|
appointed as of this tine.
54 Mow, i show you Exhibit 21 which Is a
seniority list for brajcaatn in the CT yard. can you tell
as how ssny sen on thst list have been appointed yerdmster?
A
4
A
4
A
4
A
appointed.
twelve yeare.
I count nine fro* this list.
Do you know these aan?
Yes.
How many of then are blaokT
None. They are all white.
Do you know whan they were appointed?
I know roughly when aost of thea were
Mr. Smith has been a yardaaster for tan.
Itr. Shaoklston has been a yardaaster
probably fifteen years.
Mr. Seay, flx'taan years.
Mr. Ward, firtssn years.
It*. Cole, twelve years.
Mr- Van Norton, approxlaataly tan years.
C. m Irvin Cross
Mr.Banks for about two years
Mr E lliso n , roughly ten years.
Mr. Lowe, from four to fiv e years.
5̂ )1
4 I th ink th a t is a l l you w ill find . They
are mostly the sen io r employes?
A Tes.
<4 How much does a y a rd aaste r earn?
A They Just got a ra is e . Roughly $1,22$ o r
$1,220 a month. This is approxim ately c o rre c t.
4 I s e e . And th a t would be fo r working
about twenty two days on the average a month?
A He works e ig h t hours a day, s ix days a
week.
4 Six days a week?
A Yes, s i r .
■i So l e t me see . That would roughly about
twenty s ix days a month and about $1,200, you t e s t i f i e d ,
a month?
A In exoess of $1200.
H That would be about $30 per day on the whole?
A That Is r ig h t , yes.
'4 And I take i t th a t the r e s t of the
yardmasters in the Norfolk term inal who are not on e i th e r
◦f those two ro s te r s would be c le rk s?
a I c a n 't th ink of anybody employed as
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C. M. Erv in - crou
y*ra“ *“ r " " «“ * — »«t . I l w other th„ th. „
«• Mtf.
* of th0— t°rmr d i m who were
jr#rd"“ #t*rs* ho* wny are blae*?
A Mot any. They are all whlta.
4 Mow, you gava ua aoaa lnforaatlon about tha
furlough u o r o o m tMt u ln „ f.ot « tMs>
t«r«ln*li. IMiehU, you h,,. to furlough n .t th.
request of th. local eh.trm» when ther. .r. no
at tha doe*. la that tha eaaa7
A That la tha way wa handla it at tha coal
Piar, yua.
^ Mow, thara la watar borna loading ln both
yarda; la that correct?
A Thara la.
4 Whan thara ara no vaaaala ln tha doeica in
tha CT Yard, ara tha nan who ordinarily would worn loading
thoaa vuaaala able to do any otnar wane?
A Tha aarchandlaa traffic that wa have
concarnlng th. loading of va.a.l. at tha Laubarta feint
<Jocw and Morfola Intarnational Tarulnal la quit, ana 11
compared to our ovarall oparatlon in Morfol*. Thaaa
Place, to tha baat of ay Knowledge, ara fairly atabla
aa far as bualnaa. gca. we don’t have a traaandoua
bualnaaa with either place. And I can’t thing of any
5 m J
C. N. Irvin - Cross 553
00cssIons that ths employment of our CT paopIs wars
effected by the vessels st either Laaberts Point docks
or NIT.
Q So the fsetors that would effeot
furlough In the CT yard would be the general run of
business?
A Well, when the availability of vessels
falls off or declines at the coal piers, it necessitates
the furloughing of Barney yard people. Along the
line, maybe a day or so later It neeeseltatee the
furloughing probably of CT yard e*>loyea too. So It Is
all -- probably Qo per cent of our worn here Is directed
toward the coal piers, and the availability of vessels In
the coal business la the deciding factor on the
availability of work for both yards.
« I see. But If there Is sons work
available in the nsln yard, say warehousing or classlfyli*
cars for reshlpaant In Industry, that could be done by the
CT crews as well?
i
A That la oorreot.
4 Who ordinarily work hunting coal up to the
Barney Yard?
A That la correct. I night add the older
employes, of course, would stand for thla work.
<4 Yes, I understand that.
0^3
C. M. Irvin - Cross
Now, if there is no vossoi in tha Barney
Yard eosl pisrs, then thars Is no work* is that oorraot?
A If wa hsva no vassals to load ooai on the
antira oosl piar oparstion, as far as the Barnay Yard
enployes, ara closed, shut down.
3 And the oldsr enployes, as wall as tha
younger, would hsva no work?
A That la oorraat.
3 And finally with raapaat to tha air hoaa
dutlas that you tastiflad about, you said that prior to
March 1, 1968 Barnay Yard man wara not required to do tha
work that was llstad in that rula?
A That la oorraot.
3 Co you know If in fact thay did that work
on any occasionsT
A I was hara only a short tine prior to
March 1, 1968, but to mj knowledge thasa paopla wara aavar
required to do thla work. Thay sight have dona It on
thslr own. I can't answer that in all truthfulness.
3 Po you know if thay night hsva boon ashsd
by tha foranan to do that wark7
A I don't know.
3 Po you know If thay night have boon asked
by tha yardnaatara to do that work?
A I can't answer that. I don't know. Thay
554
C. N. Irvin - Cross
were not required by contract to do It, however. I csn't
state that definitely.
4 Now, as you pointed out there are also a
number of other duties that are listed In this air hose
rule as requirements, I gather. In compensation for the
arbitrary?
A That Is right.
vl And these Include repairing switches and
splicing down switches?
A Yes.
Q I believe you testified that Barney Yard
men do this everyday?
A They do.
Q Co you Know whether they repaired the
switches and spliced down switches before March 1, 1968?
A I don't icnow prior to my arrival In Norfolk
in December 1967, but I do know that this has been a normal
part of the Barney Yard braiceaen's duties for acme time.
And you would have to as* somebody more qualified than I
how long they have been doing It.
4 Perhaps we will.
You also testified that basically this
process of bleeding air is a very easy mstter?
A That Is correct.
4 And I presume that it Is the
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equipment tad the m m proctta la both yards?
A It it.
4 So that it it Just m h i ; i« bleed t*r
In the st in jtrd tt It It la the Btmtjr Yard?
A It would be no different.
Q Mow, you testified that you work everyday
with the son in the Barney nurd, that ywu are faslllar with
their woncT
A Yea.
Q In your opinion do the Barney Yard sen
perform their duties adequately?
A Moat of than do. Hoot of the tint, of
C. N. Irvin - Cross 555
Q They do a good job?
A On the whole they do a resarfcably good job.
Q Noe, aa I understand the seniority system,
sen are appointed fros brakesen to foresen only after they
have had a certain amount of experience T
A That la correct.
Q So when they are appointed, you feel they
are able to do that wortc aa a fore mot?
A Yea, air.
Q Do you feel that their work aa brshtsen
gives then experience that la useful for their work as
foresen?
C. M. Irvin - Ct o m 557
A It dots.
*4 Do you think brake nan on tbs whole free
their experience ere qualified to bacons foreasnf
A We have, since I have been In Norfolk, we
have given several teats to applicants, itnts— n, wanting
to beeoee conductors both la the Barney Bard and In the
CT Yard. Probably three-fourths of these appllewts pass
the test and thereby are qualified to beeon» conductors.
Sons of then don't care enough to want to he a conductor.
Somm tb0m don't want the added responsibility. But the
experience is essential.
Q And you think that the passing of the test,
together with the experience necessary to qualify a m b to
take it does indicate that he is able to do that work and
assuas the added responsibilityt
A Definitely that la the way it Is done.
NR. BALLKRt Bo further questions.
TBX COURTt Anything further.
MR. TVRXSRi Vis, sir. I have sown
redirect.
KRDXR1UT KXAJtDUTIOB
BY NR. TUUBXt
ft On oroes-examination you were asked if
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C. N. Irvin - Redirect 558
bleeding of air in the CT Yard involved the sea* thing aa
bleeding air in the Berne/ Yard, and I believe your anewer
was that it doe#?
A Yea.
4 On direct examination I believe you testified
that Barney Yard nan do net engage in the coupling or
uncoupling of air hoeea. Dene this go on In the CT YhrdT
A Yba.
Q What is involved! In coupling and
uncoupling air honest
A For instance, we are picking up tan care
of nerchandiae freight from a point on our terminal
between Lenberts Point and Portloea. The law requires that
we handle these cars with air. The brekemen involved
and the conductor, if necessary, wet go between these
cars and couple the air hones and turn the angle sash
so that -- which is a valve to allow the air te flew
through the car -- turn the angle eoek so the air brake
system nay be fully operational. At times when he is
setting off cars or handling either coal or nerohandiee
freight, he has to uncouple air hoses in a msnnsr
prescribed by our rules. This in general is what it
involves.
Q All right, sir. Bow about steam hose
connections and work Incident thereto. Are steam hose
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559C* M* Irv*n - Redirect
connections involved in the CT yard?
A Tec, on passenger equipment we have steam
hoee connections that the CT trclnaen aut be familiar
with when the/ ere handling a passenger train.
<4 Ph/sieall/ what does this involve?
A Rea11/ X an net qualified to aa/ exact1/
what is involved. The/ do have to couple and uncouple
steaa connections. How it is done in detail, X don’t
know.
Q In coupling and uncoupling air hoses that
you described, is there an/ danger fron the air hose
flying around when It is disconnected?
A If it is not done like it should, aa
prescribed by the rules, it is quite dangerous. An air
hose is approximately two and a half feet lo^, and it has
a coupling on the end of it that weighs probably a half
pound, and has sixty to seventy-five pounds of air in the
air hose. If it is not handled right it eaa mke it a
very dangerous item. Ve have had men hurt seriously by
air hoses flying, striking thou in the face.
Q How about replacing air hose gaskets. is
that work required in the CT lard?
a Tea, fron tine to tins it is.
* What does that involve physically?
-- A --- The.air hose coupling* d— -flth_
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C. M. Irvin - Redirect 560
• depression In then that allows a ^aiut siailar to a
gaaicat you us* in your hoa* on your spiciest to bo put in
this coupling so that tho air will not look, or
whan tho hooos aro coupled tip.
Mt. TOIUOER: a h right, air. Mo further
questions.
m COURT: stop down. Call your Mart
witness.
(Witness excused.)
urn* X. COLl. sailed as a witness fey sad
on behalf of the lorfolic and Western, being first duly
sworn, testified as followst
BY MR. WOMftDMraMi
Q State your neas, please, sir.
DUtXCT KXANZBATZGM
A Janas R. cole.
Q Where do you live. Nr. OoleT
A I live at 21 Chathaa Road, fertaasuth
Virginia.
Q Ry whoa are you eaployodT
A Morfolic and Western Railway fTrrsisnj
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jJ_._ R. Cola - Direct 561
Q And bow long have you been
Norfolk and WesternT
A 24 fears.
When did jou start working f
•ad Westernf
e^iafed bjr the
ar the Norfolk
A
4
A
Q
A
4
A
4
Hard and
1947,
1961 I
April 1947.
And in what oapaeitp?
Aa a brakenan.
In what facility, what location?
Laaberts Feint yard, Norfolk terminal.
Zs that the CT Yard?
Tes, sir.
And what positions did ysw held in
what dates?
A As I said, i was hired as hrsksaan in
in 1951 I was prenetsd to conductor. And in
was transferred to the seal piers as a supervisor.
4
A
4
A
4
Barney Yard?
Is that the Barney yard?
Yes, sir.
How long have
Since 1961.
What Is your present position in the
yes Seen in the Barney M ?
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J . R. Cole - Direct 569
Q Vh«t fullUrlt/ do you hav*, if ugr,
of the typo of work that i* dona In tho Brnwy l*rd tad
CT Thrd, and tho various peoplo and tholr part la
performing thin work. Aro you familiar with ttaoto two
JobsT
A lba, air.
3 Row, without going Into detail, a&aao It
hta alroady toon dona, X think, at i o m longth, aro the
duties and responsibilities of a oar rldor air Banaoy Tiid
brakoaan tho aama or aro thoy dlfforont from thorn# of a
CT lard hraioaman?
A Thoy aro different.
Q Mow, which la aero complicatedT
A In my opinion It would ho tho Of hri.
Q And what requires moro experience to loam
tho Joht
A In tho CT Thrd.
Q Row, aa to tho function hotwoam tho two
yards thomsolvos aa to what thoy da, what la tha gamaml
function of tho Barney Thrdt
A Tho Bamoy Tard la to dollvor coal to tha
voaaola, and this la dona by tho brake man, Bamoy lard
brakoaan. Thoy roloaao hand brakoa, sot hand brakes and
uso a ear motor to start tho oars to send thorn to tho
Barney pit and to tho dumper whore thoy aro dmspad.
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J. R. Cole - Direct 563
Q Well, without going Into 4#tell of what
the particular employee do, the function of the Barney
lard la to dunp coal. And Into what la the eoal duaped,
airt
A into ships.
* the Barney Yard have any otter
function?
A Bo, sir.
Q What Is the function of the OB Yard?
A sir, that la In tins freight, general cargo
and serving Industries.
Q Zs there coal handled In the CT Yard alee?
A Bis, sir.
(i Is there any dunging of seal In the CT
Yard?
A Bo, sir.
Q Bow, 1 believe you testified that in your
opinion the duties and responsibilities of a CT Yard
braiceeen are acre complicated. As to the signals, what
la the breadth of the knowledge that s CT brakanan has to
have about signals?
A He has to know then.
3 What kind of signals does he have to knew?
A Be has to know the operating of the nsin
line signals or sny signal out there that la necessary far
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J. It. Cele - Blivet 5*4
hlv tv read iu has tv knew it.
3 Jlov, haw about tha Bovin* if dlevel
tla daaa ha h a w tv m a w la that
Ulan* if anjrt
A »ae, air. da h a w rvlaa that a m
in aur rala boom whiah ha haa ta
h a r a a w l a i n o f a n d know h aw t a p a n e a n d t a m a e l m .
4 I h a l l a w t h a n y aw t e s t i f i e d t h a t t h a m
I h t d h r a i r a a a n h a a t a a n e w t h a a a i a l i n e a l * n a i a a n d t h e
a l * a a l a a b o u t t h a n om n a n t of t h e t r a i n u n i t e . U h la h a f
t h a a a e l c n a i e d a a a t h a B a r n e y y a r d e a r r i d e r h a r e t a n n a n t
a T h e y a r e n e t r e q u i r e d t a a n e w e i t h e r a f
4 h h e t K in d a f a l e v a l a a m n e e d h r t h a e a r
r l d e r e f
A T h e y h a v e a l * a a l a — i m u t h a t t h e y a n a
t h e m a l m a t a n e w t h e a v a l f r e e t h a y a r d , b u t t h a y a m
net required ta, Z naan, in ear boon af rulee.
4 Ail runt* air. law than mnauy dean
a ear rider Knew uhea to a tart a ear nevin* dean free the
hunpt
a Thia in daaa by the Barney Thrd r m a u
ordarinc a ear off a apeelfied treed.
4 And enat ei*nala daaa tha fareata nee ta
•in»el the ear rlxtere 7
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565
A Be h u a lighting which m refer to as a
•e ora board which ha can punch and a number will iigfrfe up.
For instance, if he punches number eight, eight will light
up.
Q Whet does number eight signify?
* hmber eight means he wants a ear, or
whatever amount of ears he speoifles off that one track.
It nay be one or mere ears.
Q noil, if the number eight comas up, what
does that stand for?
A Be wants one ear off number ei^it.
u Bow does he say be wanta more than one
ear off number eight?
A You have two rows of lights. if he has
a light in the top that aays eight and the batten bays
tight, it would indicate that he wanta two off of ei£it.
Q Bow than, what ether wind ef signals, if
any, dees tha foremen send to the bratem besides the
light signal?
A Be has a speaker which he ean talk over,
the outside speakers in the yard. Be also specifies,
by u mber also — whan he indies tea a number eight, far
instance, he would cell for one car off of wwmlrtr eight.
3 This is by voiec?
J. ft. Cole - Direct
A That is by voioc.
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J. * . Cole - Direct 566
Q Now, at to tht hour# of worn, on tin
average, how auoh tlna does a Barney Yard oar rider a pond
in actually starting cart and riding earn on an avers ga
shift t
A I would M y five out of sight hours.
Q And what doss ho do tho othor throo hours?
A Nothing.
Q Mow, thors has boon sous danouotrotloo
in tho Court about tho uso of this pinch bar or oar
asver, and I would asa you whether tho ana U m uooa that
pinoh bar has any lifting to do, or whether ha pushes
down on it?
A Ho pushes down on it.
Q On what occasion, if any, duos ho have to
lift and strain his back or put any strain on bin bask with
that instrunent?
A Does ho?
Q Does ho ewer hare to do thin lifting
thing which would put strain on his back?
A Not in lifting Z would say, no, air. Bat
wo do have sous hard oars to start that wo have sous typo
of cars are ball bearing and sous that are not ball
bearing, and there is a difference in starting tho two
different kind of ears. One nay bo easier to start than
tho other.
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Q But he still pushes down rether than
pulling up?
A its* on a hard or ess/ rolling ear.
Q Mow, there is eoue issue an to whether the
worn in the OT Yard b/ a bretcenan working on a seal ear
is dirtier than a ear rider in the Berne/ Yard working on
a eeal oar. Proa /our experience is there an/ d if foresee
ae to being dirt/ when /ou are working on a eeal ear in
these two facilities?
A State the question again. X didn't
understand what /ou neant.
Q The question is, is a brake nan in the CT
Yard who is working on a eeal ear, or a out of seal ears,
is he exposed to dirt an/ wore then a ear rldnr la the Bamej
Yard who is also roving a coal ear?
A Yes, sir.
Q Which one is exposed aere to the dirt?
A The Of ana is tuning eeal in wind/
weather and is «ieh sore out la the dirt than — X naan,
the dirt would be blowing fro* the ear — not dirt, but
oosl -than the nan that is down on the ground up on the
Berne/ Yard.
q Mow, are there sane duties of Berne/ Yard
brakeaen, particularly at the duapcr which are dirtier
than the ordinary CT Yard brakenaa?
J. R. Colt - Direct 567
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J. R . Col* - Eiroet 568
A Hat, air.
Q And la that tho only plaeoT
A To ay wnowlodgo, but tboso poaltlona at
th* - I m i a , at tho dunpor you art roforrlng to,
nomall/ tha aonlor m b worn tho*. Thor aro • profomd
Job w i though thoy art dirty.
Iron though thoy aro dirty thay aro
proforrod?
A Haa, air.
Now, how about tho dlfforonoo la pay
botvooB tho Barmy Hard and CT Yard. la tliara a
dlfforonoo at tho variant lovola of pay?
A No, air, tho a a— .
Q Now, how aany daya do tho pooplo la tha
CT Hard wont. How M a y daya a wookf
A Thay aro aaalgnad aa a flvo day work waok.
Q Now aany daya dooa tha yard 1tooIT
oporata ?
A Thoy work aovoa daya a wook.
Q la tharo any dlfforonoo botwaan tha CT
Hard aod tho Barmy Hard 1b that raapootf
A No, air.
Q Aod la tharo any dlfforonoo. In tha
avoraga, botwoon tho oaployoa haring to work oa wooWanda
In tho CT Hard fro* tho Barmy Hard?
J. It. Col# - i; treat ^
1 A Mo, sir.
2 Q Mow, arc you familiar with the method of
3 proaoting Mplo/ti in tha Barney yardT
4 A Taa, air.
f) Q Mow, what ara your duties with roopoot
6 to promotions la tha Barmy 1 M Y
• A I grade tha axamlaatlon, and than I
8 approve it by tha auparlntandant aftar Z grade them.
9 Q Ara you familiar with tha axamiaatlamf
10 A Van, air.
11 Q What la tha nature of the aya-i****^ vv
12 relatad to tha Job that tha man la being examined fort
13 A They ara tha tfutlee that ha would be require1
14 to perform. They ara also on am operating rule booh, and
15 our aafety rule boom.
16 <4 la there anything la tha examination that
17 doesn't relate to tha Job requirementeT
• A Mo, air.
19 <4 »ow, with raapaet to air hooo work, are
20 | you familiar with the hlatory of tha air homo work In
21 tha Barney Yhrd and In the CT Yard?
22 A Yea, air.
23 Q All right, air. Mow, before 1968 what
24 retirement, if any, waa there for Bamay Yard people to
25 do air hoaa work?
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J R. Colo - Diroot 570
A Bom.
<4 Bow, who was furnished and required to do
tlw air hoM work, either by being stationed in tht
Bwnbjr Yard or being available on oall?
A Car inspootoro.
Q Bow, was that tho duty of the oar
inspector to do that air boat work?
A Yes, sir. Aad oa oeoasion train— n that
work— at tha CT Thrd would bio— thoir own outs off whan
they oa— in tho Barmy Yard.
4 Bow, U blooding air ono of tho parts of
air hooo work?
A lbs, air.
<4 Bow, in tho Barmy Yard, how — ny oars on
tho a v or ago, in ardor to — to than down tho slops,
require tho blooding of air?
A is your question in roforo— o to how
■any ears that are put in tho Bar— y Yard with air on
tho* that has to bo takon off boforo they oa* bo — rod?
Q Yba.
A
<4
X would say approxi— toly o— par east.
Could it possibly bo as high — fire par
oont ?
A Bo, sir.
Q Could it possibly bo as high — fifty
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J ft . Cole - Elreot 571
per cent?
A Mo* sir.
Q Mow long have you been ever there and
aware of that situation?
A Sines 1961.
Q Mow* the act of bleedlag air off of a
ear la the Batmay Yard* what does that eonsiat o f f
A That eonslata of pulling the bleed release
rod. it takes wry little of fort. la other words* It
protrudes on the outside of the ear, and all you have to do
la pull it.
Hew long does it tags to asoonpllah that?
A Approximately a alaute.
4 What relation to the people in the Barney
Yard also hare to spites swltehas?
A Any ties there is a reverse a m to to
■ado In our Barney yard it is neoeasary to lootc up or
spites swltehas before reveres movement eaa be aade.
0 What dees spiking swltehas neaaf
A That naans we have floating awitehea whleh
are not stationary. They will float from one aide to the
other. They are supposed to be spiked to one position.
4 Bow do you do it?
A By banner and a spike.
_______ * And how long does that take?
SHI 3.
J. K. Col* - direct 572 i
i
A Per switch?
2 A Yes.
3 A I would sey two minutes.
4
Q how i will hand you on exhibit hero which
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ie No. 4, at Pago •£. Are you familiar with that see
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Paragraph ho. 4?
:/ A VMS, SIR. 1
8 0 hhat does that rapcoaaat, that paragraph
»o. 4 which ie entitled air hoee, et cetera?
10
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A You ere referring in reference to the
Barney Yard people? 1
12 0 * ** just referring to in general whet i.
13 this supposed w w r ? It is s pert of the rules of
14 work conditioner ie it not?
15
lb
A Yos, that is the work agreement hotwees
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the
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naasynMBt and U w Brotherhood of Boil way, the UTU,
17 •ad tho railway ocwpany.
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this or aet describe whit la
ia tho way of duties within the 444 air hoee
this enumerate all the things that are
entitle • person or a craft to the air hose
A ho, sir.
Q Bhat does it — perhaps you
read it into the record and we will hare It.
A iBtaaaak you a question
6 HZ 3*
had hotter jeet
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J. R. Col# - Lireet 573
Q All right, sir.
A l say not understand th# question.
4 Well, there are certain things emuwrated
in h#r* • o w d by the air hose rule. on oeeasloe is s
■an oalled on to do all of those in order to be entitled
for his class to be entitled to the arbitrary
A I will answer this way. hot in the Barney
Yard, they are not required to do all this.
3 In the CT lard are they required to do
sons of these things at sone tins or anotherf
A Yes, sir. If it is necessary to do so,
yea, sir.
Q Let's go through then starting down there
in the sixth or sere nth line. ire the Barney Yard
people entitled or required to couple or air
hoses?
A Mo, sir.
4 Are they required to couple or uncouple
signal hose eenneotions?
A Mo, sir.
3 Are they required to oouple or uncouple
ateaa hose connections?
A Mo, sir.
<3 Are they required to do the work incident
those thlwgat______________________
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574J . H . Col* - D irect
A Bo, sir.
<4 Arc the/ required to turn angle cocks T
A Bo, sir.
Q Are they required to nane sir tests?
A Mo, sir.
Q Are they required to re piece sir Moses?
A No, sir.
q Are they required to rcpisec sir hose
gaskets?
A Mo, sir.
Q Mow, on occasion are they required to
chela and unchain cars 1a the process of handling care?
A Net to nr Knowledge it has newer been dene
in the Barney ISrd.
Q Are they required to couple or
vestibule curtains?
A Me, sir.
Q Are they required to uarh ears?
A Mo, sir.
<4 Mew, they are required! are they not, to
bleed air free ears, you say, about one per cent of the
tine?
A hs, sir.
Q Are they required to handlewwyhlllt
_______A_____Me, sir.
J.R. Colo - Diroot 275
1 <4 At* thoy roqulrod to haodlo Mil?
2 A Ho, sir.
3 ^ ̂bollov# you ItitlfM tht/ aro rtqulrt^
4 to spite dona swltetea?
5 A Baa.
H Q How about ropalrs to owltotes. Aro ttey
• roqulrod to do ropalrs to avltotea?
8 A Mo, air, no ropalrs.
9 Q Mow than, tte last thin*. Nr. Oslo, tew
10 yatemstor Jobs do you tevo in tte Barmy Tate?
11 A Wo hate throo.
12 Q Now, how aaay of tte r*fiUr yateaaatora
13 aro bias*?
14 A Qso.
15 Q How may rolls f yard motor jobs do you
10 tevo?
17 A Throo.
• Q And how may of thooo aro blaotc?
19 A Two.
20 *. WORTHIBflffQNi All right, air. Anawor
21 Hr. Noody.
22 NR. MOODY t No qusatlons.
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CROSS-KXAMDUff ION
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_______ ___________ _________ 586
(witness excused.)
(Rsosss.)
MjLLIAW B, TAUBER, called as a witness by
and on behalf of the Norfolk and We a tern, being first duly
aworn, testified aa follows*
DIRECT KX1NUUTZQN
BI MR. WORTH DOT OKs
Q State your oaai, please.
A Willies b . Tenser.
Q Where do you live, Mr. Tanner?
A Virginia Bsach.
Q
A
Q
Norfolk and
A
And by whoa ere you employed ?
The Norfolk end Western Railroad Coopsay.
How long have you been employed by the
Western Railroad Conpeny?
Twenty-five years.
Q What la your present position?
A Superintendent.
Q And where are you located?
A At the Norfolk terminal. Ry office is at
the passenger station.
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5*7
Q And what facilities of the Norfolk and
Ntatem Railway Company at the Norfolk terminal do yon
have supervision over?
A Hy Jurisdiction starts at what is known as
Boat 8, which is the area extending on into
Chesapeake, on into Port look area where we have a yard,
on into Sewells Point where we also have a yard, also
into the Lanherts Point area where we have a yard and seal
pier handling facility.
Q Well then, to be wore speciflo, do you
or net have supervision over the Barney yard and the or
yard, so-called?
A Tee, air.
Q Now, aa to the activity in the Barney yard,
what la carried on there by way of the function of that
faoillty. just uhst the fselllty Itself is designed to
do and does do?
A The Barney yard eonelets of 4$ trees*.
On these traeks is s aarshalllag or stars** yard.
4 Bsfors we get down to the traeks and ths
particular equipment that is there, what Is the Barney yard
designed to do. What la the big Job done by the Barney
yard?
A Coal la plaeod on ths Barney ttrd to be
loaded onto a particular vessel._____
-T *-/ ""7 zy..
____ w - B. Tanner - Direct
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W. B. Tanner . Direct
588
3 All rltfit, »lr. Now, the life blood of
the Barney yard then U eoalj 1» it not?
A Tee, air.
Q Bee, how la the aetlvlty In the Barney
Yard affooted, if it la, by the aala 0f eoal by the
ehlppere on the Norfolk and western?
A Would you repeat that, please?
^ air. Put it another nay.
If the ahlppers of eoal on the Norfolk and western are
able to sell their eoal, shot offset does that here on
the aetlvlty in the Barney Brd, the amount of aetlvlty
la the Barney Y*rd?
A At its peak If vessels are available?
Q Well, if eoal is sold la the Barney Yard
busy or la It Idle?
A It la busy.
Q If eoal is not sold, is it busy er la It
Idle?
A It would be idle.
Q New, assuming that thsre is s slash period
In the sale of eoal, what offset does this have on
•nploynant in the Barney Yard. if there are no shlpn,
no aalea of eoal, what happens to the Barney lard?
A There Is no work to bo dono in ths Barney
Yard.
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W. B. Tanner - Direot 589
Yard.
4 What happens to the
Do they work op not work?
A Thajr do not work,
to ua as cut-off.
People la tha
They do what la tnown
tine?
Why arc they cut-off la those periods of
A just what you said, alack business.
<4 Za there anythin else that tha
Yard people eould do when there are no chips and no
sales of coal?
*lr. they are assigned to tha
Yard
a Mow, what happens to the Norfolk and
Western enployea la tha eoal fields when this condition
occursr
A Wiaa business Is slack at the Barney Yard,
than we are still able to sows osal into Norfolk until we
got to what la known as a capacity.
3 All right, sir. do ahead.
A And than as Norfolk reaches its capacity,
than we start working on Crown Virginia. when it reaches
its capacity, we fin up Roanoke, and when starts
filling up Its oapaclty we no re back west to the eoal
fields thereby in turn asking a reduction In forces at
Norfolk, at Crowe, at Roanoke and Bluefleld until we get
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W. B. Tanner - Direct 590
back to the point of where we have what Is known aa mine
awltefcers, and then we have a cut-off period.
Q Now, are these people up the line who are
laid off predominantly black or white or either?
A Either, I presume.
Q I» there any racial discrimination In the
lay offs at any point when the coal slacks off?
HI. BELTON* Objection, Your Boner, on
the grounds that this Is the question that the
Court has to decide.
YBX COUNT* ASk the question again.
BY m . VGKlBZBSrONi
Q Let's suppose, nr. Tanner, that the coal
sales are off and there are no ships and lay offs are
necessary In the Barney Ykrd. Does the race of the
worker In the Barney Yard have anything to do with their
lay offs?
A No, sir.
TH* COURT* Z think the question is
proper. Be la a primary employe on the system.
NR. BELTON: Your Bonor, that is not the
way Nr. Worthington asked the question prior to
the objection being raised.
______________ THE COUNT*__All right, sir._____________
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BY NR. TAMER t
4 Bow, suppose the m m situation, and you
tot basic to shore you had to lay off people at Grows. Boos
the rase of the people at Crewe hare anything to do with
the lay offT
V. B. Tanner - Direct 591
A air.
4 And how about ftoonofca?
A Bo, air.
4 And how about book in the coal fields?
A Bo, sir.
Q Bow, what do you have to do with the
discipline of people in the Barney Yard and Of M l at
Norfolk?
A X hate authority to iupese discipline
on Barney Yard brakeuen and conductors, transportation,
traioaea, up to a point of navi nun deferred suspension.
Q that occasion then do you hare to be
involved in the discipline of these people ever the period
of tine that you hare been here?
A We hare what is known an investlgrt ions.
These investigations are than sent to ay office for
review.
Q Well, hew asny of these ere yon involved
in?
A Haw asny investigationa ?
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w. B. Tanner - Direst 592
Q Wall, of thoaa that have bean, what
percentage of than ara you Involved la?
A in every one of then on the Norfolk
terminal.
14 Mow, as being Involved in all the
disciplinary proeeedlaga, what, frta your experience, haa
the rsee of the person to be dlaelplined had to do with
the result of the dlaelpline?
A Mona.
WGRnmnroVt Answer nr. Needy.
Ml. MOODYt We don't have any quest Iona.
THX COQRTt Croea-examine.
CROSSEXANIMATION
BY MR. BALLKRs
Q Mew, Nr. Tanner, you testified that whan
there are no ships in the Barney Yard there la no seal
loading. Consequently there la no wortci la that eorreetf
A Yea, sir.
4 When there are no ships in the Barney lhid
there nay continue to be sons work in the CT Yard until
the tiam that that yard gets up to Its sapaelty far eeali
la that right?
_______ A______Yea, air.
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* ■«« long e ptriod u that, mmiiy.
U a t a » a ttwr« -------- ^•••«■• no «Mt u i n |___
*nd the t l M when ts*
th* '"** •*> «o*l ato„ In tha OT
T*”’ lB 0th”r "opd*' *"» *■" »oum It tain t. flu up
to capeeity?
* ®»*«>«ln« on how wa had ,tvrM ^
tlM of th. baclmlnc of th. elaoa period. M j,
*“ •’* radnatlona In what la known aa - t< » ___
40 **“ tr“ MOrt,tl0° W . Jaat onouah powar u .Uanad
to k-p whkt i. k»n« m pwU-ln traans
ooal. whan wa raaah that aapaaltp than aoal novawnt
•topped and reductions thereby eoatiaue.
Q I don't think you nave ■mosisd ay
question. How long does that process tans. i realli
^ but could you give us sons idea of tht
A On* capacity on Norfolk terminal is
14,000
is
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20 coal?
* « • eeny ears are brought is per day of
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Approxlsately 1500 te 1600 earn.
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>*) i 30 ^*t it nay take, for example> if the
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imrd 1. .apt, tt nap taka aa mah aa al«ht or M m day.
to reach capacity?
~-----sir. The yard is never •apty to aegis
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Tioinr - Cross 594
with.
3 How may ears srs typically m the
A Could i loon at thia morning's record.
* B CCTOTs Loan at anything you w a n t to
if it win halp jrou to find tha anawar.
BY NR. BALLSRs
3 You my.
* Thl* aorning, six A. w h M 12,931
•ara of ooal on hand.
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Q Okay. So that It would than
approximately two nora days fro. thla anrnlng to fill up
to capacity if no eara left that yard?
A If wo want right to tha---mm, yarn. air.
^ Mow, does that figure of 12,000 and name
eara Include eara which ara not ooal eara?
A Ho, air. Thla la Tidewater eoal.
q thMt figure Include only loaded eoal
eara?
A Tea, air.
Q How many erewe in the CT Yard would you
say, on tha average, are worfclng on eoal eara. How
tauap ooal up to tha Barney yard?
A (Mi an average day?
___ ^ __ Yea, air.
w. B. Tanatr - Oroag 395
A Five to Miron crows por shift.
Q And how asny ©rows sro working on other
typos of freight or cargo in tho Cl Xkrd on sn average day?
A Nsrshsndiso freight?
Q leery other kind of freight that you
handle in the CT TSrd. I
* i^t ne phrSM it this way. An average I
day we work around 65 engine crews per day, which involves !
!*
Q That is for three shifts? i
A Tea, sir. That is for a 24 hour period.
I
That includes all aerehandiM freight and all eur seal
■ovlng in and out of the area and our saall piaatngsr
business.
Q New, let ns see if I have this right.
On an average day you have about 65 engine crews. And
on an average shift you said you had about ala cr seven
crews?
j
A Tbs. 1
Q Five or six or Mvea crews that work on
ooal?
I
A Yea, sir. I said putting oeal m the
Barney Yhrd.
Q You have other crews that work with eeal
in other ways?
55 5 &
A
V. B. Turner - Cross 596|
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Tss, sir.
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Q And what do they do?
A Wo have assignments st Lamberts Point that
is also switching out different classes of eosl that has
Wlous assignments. we hare crew assignments that handle
o w returns that go bash to the sosl fields. we
h«ve assignments st Parties* yard and Smells Point yard j
that handle both coal and narohandlao freight.
Q So that they don't war* all the tine in
that yard with the eoal oars?
A No, sir. we have assignments that also
tales ears of our local Industries. j
4 Bow, on the whole, outside these crews that
ara working bunging coal up to tha Barney Yard, how many
other sraws any be engaged with eoal oars at a given time,
Mfi on s given shift?
Y M COURT* Ton had 65 all day. What
paroentaga of 65 are involved In eoal.
1HB WITBESSt Wall, let'a see. Can I j
figure a minute.
fiB COURT * Bo anything you want to.
IIi
BY m. BALLERt
Q You certainly nay.
A This la far tygraxlnBtelj eight hours, and
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it would b« sinllar throughout ths day. At
tolm it would bo approx lawtoly ij to 14. It 3 m 11a
Joint it would poaalblj bo throw, a portion of it bolus
t4“ fr*1®ht tualnoaa, and possibly ono at Portions. Ant
than wa alao haw. on. what In Known a. . hall crow norm,
fron part to yard. Approxlnatoly 18 doallng dlrootly
with m i with a aaall portion handllns tin. frol*h». Tho
balaneo of tho erowa would bo tonlnal runa and othar
incidental work on our Morfolk srss.
Q Bo sii those 13 erows work sll thslr tin
with eosl?
A Just what i said, Ths Majority of it
would be eosl with a snail paraantage utyba >»»MUa|
boa equipnent.
^ ̂saa. Mow tha ranalndar of the araws
working in tha C71 yard would not work with ooalT
A BSa sir. They would ba handily sur
■srehaadlsa and plsr work, aerahaadUa plar work.
m CCWPT: You naan 18 out of 22 or 23
par shift?
V. B. Tannsr - Cross
THB VlTIBSSi Y»s, sir. 1 isintsi i
thsrsabouts.
BY MR. BALLERi
Q Mow, with respset to tho othsr orows thsy
5 5 5̂..
W. B. Tamar - Cross 599
I ;
1
wsuM not bs affsstsd by whathsr or sot t h m art ships
la the Bsrnsy Hurd to rsesivs soslT
A It shouldn't bs, so, sir.
3 So thsy would work departing on ths d
for gansral asruhaadlas work?
A Dsponding on ths nsrshandlsa bualnsas
sir.
Q Bow, just with rsgard to thsss 18
srs lnrolvsd, for sous or all of thsir tiso with sssl
thsy wouldn't bs as lansdlataly affsstsd by tha abssnss
of a ship is ths Bsrnsy lhrd pisrs as ths Barmy BiUmaj
would thsy?
A Would you ropsst that, plsass?
3 I aa asking you if thsy would bo as
iaasdiataly affsstsd by ths abssnss of say ship at sithsr
M w 5 ar 6?
Wot iausdiatsly, no, sir.
I sss. Thors would bs sous tins lapssf
Possibly.
So that if a ship, say, wars not in ths
Bsrnsy lard on aas day, but ons arrlrsd on ths asst day
thsy night bs abls to sontinus work olasslfylng, storlx*
ooal up to ths Unit ofoapaslty?
A Up to a point whsrs ws rsaoh our
oapaslty.
A
3
A
3
5 r % K.
W. b . T a m m * - Cross
Q So that they ars not as sutjast to short
tana variations in tha wort load?
A Not diraatly. I wish to add, wa also hava
savarsl anginas par shift. on a normal day savaral
anginas ara working empties gatting our empties together
to nova book to tha eoal flaids.
Q And, of course, tha enptlea aan ba aovad i
out avan if thara Isn’t a ship in tha Barnay yard?
i
A if thara is no ships thara will not ba
any asptias.
* I* hava say asptias waiting in tha
snpty yard to ba takaa away?
j
A what is lsft ovar aft or tha last is !
finishsd. Ihyba oam shift, or thereabouts, part of a
shift.
Q New, on tha whola, in your sapor lanes at
tha Norfolk terminal, la thara nuah variation in tha
dumping and ahipnaat of eoal? !
A Za thara nuah variation? |
TBK COURTi On a daily, meanly or nithlj
bania.
!599
BY Ml. BALLBRi
<4 Qna weak
th In another.
55c\-k
than
/ another ana k or monthi
H
^ • B. Ttnotr - Cross
600
1 It all 0«p«nda on tha aaasal arrlral at
th« Hampton Roods srss.
̂ Do jou find that ths vosssls arrive wish
•ay variationr
A Bir* Ali Is dependent on ths
trMMhlppar of th. aoal. so« .«**. M ^ „ w ,1
v«M l a waiting. Sararal flay. of th. aeath wa haw* no
vosssls. Some dsjs ws have two vssssls.
4 Is thsrs any othsr factor that affsots
ths amount of work in ths Barnsy yard T
* Othsr than ths loading of esalt
* Lat as ask you this. Is ths r
of work involved in loading osai from ths Barney yard
down to ths pisr and dumping It on tha ships at all tlawsT
A Would you slarlfy that?
TIB COURTt I don't undsrstand ths
question, jg*. Bailor.
BT MR. BALLS*i
4 Doss it Involvs ths m m amount of work
to duap aoai, for axanpia, in tha n w an in tha wlntarr
A Mo, sir.
4 What Is ths differ#new?
̂ ^ ths wintertime due to ths lnolsasnt
weather it is necessary to add more Ramey yard braiotasn to
5lc0x̂
v. B. Tanner - Cross
601
the roster or to that particular shift la order to
expedite the dumping of coal bjr working la our thawing
Do you use the thawing la the
r?
A ho, air.
4 What happens to the eon that hare been
•Med to work on the thawing ehauberf
A mm In the Barney mrd are so assigned ar
so designated to the type of vessel orders. By that. I
sons vessel orders are sore oasp Hosted and require
sen in the Barney lard. 3was vessels are ■»**» •«
to load due to the nuaber of trasks and oleasea, and
thereby leaser sen.
4 Could you state generally whether you hive
*a aany sen enployed in the Barney lard on a typical day
In the aunser as in the winter?
A i don't know bsenuse I don't get lata It
that close. j
4 In your experience la the general
nerehandlse freight transportation business as sneh
affsetsd by ssssonsi variation as the coal business?
It is affeetod greatly with our grain
5UI*.
_______ 60S
* A W* t>*V* **° 1,r** *rll« »Wppw. la th.
"0rf0U *” • ««**--*« « - C ^ I U .
* « , * , “ ,kout * * ^
^ !• Dot I M i imm i
Ion NUft of , ' ** <*o m hMw him tad
*“* d*P*r t W * in th. Norfolk u w .
**• BALLEHi Ho fst-ku^ rurth*r qMMtloaa.
® c* » ' Stop <owt>
* • -wwiWflN, thu w i t M M b.
I
COURTi Aa f*r aa i aa
(vitnoaa axouMd.)
•ntf «. M u i r of tte aorf,^
•wra, t.atlfla* u
°«ll#d M * Wit M M by
***t#rn' bwiHg flnt duly
wmct txAimuoriov
BT JR. WORBIURfoifi
3 U U PlMM, oir.
hart1b .
***** do *>« U w , MrtlBf
XotnoM, VlrsiAia.
5 W k
A
K. M Martin - Direct 603
Q And by whoa are you employed?
A Norfolk and Wee tern Railway.
Q What la your position with Norfolk — i
Wostora Railway?
A Ruloa supervisor.
< And what does that oean?
A 1 supervise labor relations with the 5M*ri
Transportation Onion.
Q And what regions do you have supervision
oror?
A fhe Atlantis and Pocahontas region.
Q And what region Is Norfolk Barney T*rd and
Norfolk CT xard Included In?
A Under the Atlantis region.
Q Hew long have you been in the railroad
buainosa?
A I wont to the railroad in 1931 as a elork.
Q ■aw old were you at that tlaaf
A Twenty.
3 And have you been with the railroad
company slnoe then?
A Ybs, sir.
Q Sans ooapaay?
A Tea, air.
w All rlgbt. Tou started as a clerk in
I. M. Mart in - Direct
'51. Wuit happened to you after that?
A i was moved to the personnel department as
clerk for the labor relations department as a elerk In
1957. I was then promoted to rales supervisor la I960.
Q > since i960 what has Seas your
involvement on behalf of the railway company, if any, as
to dealing with people in the Norfolk Barney yard and the
Norfolk Cl lard as to conditions at work?
A 1 handle on final appeal all of the tins
claims and grievances arising on the Norfolk terminal in the
CT Tard and the Barney yard. I make and mints in all
labor relations agreements or labor agree manta.
Q Now, is thsre such a thing aa ctsigisi the
title of an employe on the Barney yard. What would be
your connection with that?
A 1 handle the negotiations to change the
titles.
Q Do you reeolieet in early 1966 having acme
dealings with the union people on this subject?
A lbs, sir.
Q Do you remember how that was instituted,
how it was inaugurated? II
A we received a request from the general I
chairman of the united Transportation union — at that tins
ifc *•* *hs Brotherhood of Railroad Trainman — to 0 hangs
5 (0‘■I ?>-
i
605
th* naaa of « Barnay yard oar rid or to a Btrrwjr Ta*d
tarakaaan. Tha naaa of Barnay yard fotraaan to Barmy | M
oonduator.
Q And what waa tha raaoon asaignsd for tha
raquaat of tha ohanga of titlaT
A in tha oonfaraaeaa loading up ta tha
ahanga in thaaa titlas, tha aaln raaaon giran waa that a
Barnaj yard brairaaan or Barmy yard fora nan would go into
tha City of Bor folic, or ana of tha eltiaa in fcM* araa
awaiting eradit, and that if thay told than that Nl am
anployad aa a oar rldar'' no ana maw what this want. And
If thay had tha nant yard bruicanan or yard oonduator,
whiah ataryona in this araa waa familiar with, thay oould
gat battar oradlt.
Q what waa tha raapanaa of tha railway
oompany to that rsqnast?
A Wa grantad tha raquaat.
Q What waa tha baaia of granting tha raquaat.
Bid it hava anything to do with ohanga of dutlaaf
A Mo, no ahanga in dutlaa at all.
<4 Mow, what, if anything, did you hava to da
with tha negotiations about tha roatara for aaniority of
tha Baraay yard paopla and tha CT yard paoplaf
A wa raoalvad a raquaat from Qanaral Chairman
Utah of tha Ubltad Transportation union. Thara wara flva
5kS cJ- l
2. M. ttrtln - Direct
B. K. Martin - Direct 606
lUm in the request. The first item dealt with topple
and bottoming of seniority rosters.
Q I hand you than what has bMo m m a*
Defandante' Bxhlblt 16 and ash you whether that Is tha
request to which you refer?
A »■, sir, it is.
IB. BALLS*i Excuse we. Whloh exhibit?
IB. VORnmnrOMi Defendants' Inhibit
No. 16.
by ib. v<xerKxmrati
Q Mow. would you road than into tha record
tha precise language of Xtaa labor 1 in that Defendants*
®Mhiblt Mo. l which 1s a latter from tha dated
August 30. 1967.
1 M COURT I YOU said Xrtiiblt Mo. l. tm
aaan Exhibit 16?
IB. WORTH IN® GW« Yes. 16. ThMB you.
Your lonor.
BY IB. VOWMarOMi
Q Oo ahead.
A "Item Mo. 1. Bequest that the mn on i
Barney Yfcrd be included in any future topping and
bottoming of seniority rosters on Morfola terminal.*
S lo G ck.
2. M. Martin - Direst 607
A
<4
Thajr are placed In the file.
Ia that dtooa in tha regular 0
5(ol3c
̂ Now, tha language thara aays something
•bout a future bopping and bottoming of tha seniority
roatara. what was tha nature of tha request as to
whathar thara was to ba suoh a topping and bottoming at
that tins, in tha praaant timer
A Wa had aonfaranoaa on this not lea, and thara
*** 00 *•<*»"* that it ba dona at that time. Tha regnant
was that in tha event there was aajr topping and bottomli*
of rosters in tha futura they wanted these included. j
Q Maw, Mr. Martin, what training, if any,
do you have in taming shorthand?
A Mall, z took, shorthand far thrse years.
Q Maw, as part of your duties as rulss
supervisor for tha railway onay any sine# i960, what
prattles, if any, have you had of muting notes of
ooafaranoas in tha setters that are in your department T
* In quite a few of tha oonfaraaaas — not
•11 of them — it depends on tha nature of the goaf arenas,
of course. I wane quite a few shorthand notes during
tbs conference, whioh I use later on in dlotating a
memorandum of tha eonfarenas to the stenographers.
Q What happens to those memoranda after they
are dictated?
I. M. Martin - Direct 606
buslnaso by you as part of your Job?
A 7ti, air.
Q Mow, what has baan your pvaatloa whan
tbia has baaa dons as to notifying tha paopla that ara
praaant at tha aonfaranaa that aataa af it will ba takanf
A Z hart notified tha paopla at tha tla» that
I an taking Mown aartain quotas. Z ask than to go a
littla slowar so that Z aan gat thasa sxastly as thay giro j
than. Quits oftan Z rani thasa bask to than to nans sura
that 1 hava down axaatly what thay ara asking for.
Q Mew, was this dans, or not, in eoimaotlsn
with tha aonfaranaas hold following tha rssstpt af
Dsfsndants' Morfolk and Msstsm Exhibit Mo. 16 whleh you
wars shown a nnnsat ago?
A lbs, sir, it was.
NR. WOWMOrOMt Thasa ara Kxhibits 18
and 19 anrbnd for tha railway ooqpany.
BY MR. VamUMVOMi
i
Q X will hand you than thasa two plaaas af
papar narkad Norfolk and Vastarn Inhibits 18 and 19 and ask
yon if thay ara sopiaa of tha neroanda nada an thosa
oocaslons undar thosa alraunstanaast Ip
A lbs, sir, thay ara.
MR. VCRSHZMCRrQMt We of far thsaa in
S M a-
!• M. Hurt in - Dlrtot
evidence, Your Honor.
w» COURT I All right, sir.
I®. BALi£Xi Vt object to the admin ion
into evidence on the grounds that these are
seif-serving statements. These are
prepared by an officer of the eeoyan
offered.
*** COURTS I haven't read them jm%,
Baiier# but if the/ are Msonada of
conversations held with other defendants in
otae, aaswl/ the UTU representatives, then the/
•re definite 1/ admissible. you as/ vent te
cross-examine as to whether or not ha faithfully
performed the function of recording them# but If
•re references to other people's Blthuudi
609
•*•**•» 1 find the/ are admissible. 1
haven't read the exhibits.
hsw, if the exhibit is something alee I
besides that, you oan give It to ms and I sen
look at it. give them to as new and I will lash j
at them.
**• ««nmroi» 2 think the portion that
b#ar* this part of the ease la os the flrvt pans
baa lasU/.
j
W ® ? L ̂ ttw to be — at least
. 5iofUV
610
thnt awaorandua daaignatad as Defendant#' ^»Mbtt
Mabar 16 daallng with a aonfaraaea Malt aa
Oetabor 2, 1967 to ba rapaorta of tha itattanM
I. K. Martin * Dlrsst
11
1 i
i 1!
i;< I
! ! I
i!) !I
_’() '
I II
■Jl <
of lb*,
far aa l an
I*, faaaart of 97*, and find, ao
conearnaO, that tha raport thava la
Lat aa look at tha nut ana. Aa ta tho
•ad naaoramtw, Dafandaats* EMilblt MMbai
19* purporting to ba notaa of a aoafaraaaa bald
on Ttmradaj, Octobar 19, 1967, aa ta tha ltan af
tapping and bottoming of roatars, It la simply
a quota of what Mr. Lusk had to Btjr, and
with tha union.
t that
Tbur objaatlon la In tha
(A naaoraadm of Ghairaaa Lusk's
datad August 30, 1967 was
Exhibit *0. 18 and raa
(A nsnarandun af a
Ootobar 19, 19*7 was mrto
Mo. 19 and raaalwad la awldaaaa.)
In awldaaaa.)
ha Id
MU WCWWTMTQMi
Q Mr. Martin, dlraatl^
Exhibit Mudbar 18* would you tall ths Oaurt
attaatlan ta
tat tha data
5 70aw
2 . N. Martin - Diract 611
of this conference was?
A October 2, 1967.
3 And who was present on behalf of the railway
ootspany?
lodge?
A Mr. j A. Parsons who at that tins was
of personnel, and nyself.
^ Who was present on behalf of the general
A Nr. M. Y. Lush, the general chalraan.
* Who was present on behalf of Local Lodge
974?
A Mr. Robert Rock, local ohairaan, and Nr.
M. £. Peanert, secretary-treasurer of 974.
3 Could you read then into the recced,
quickly, the notes that are there on Item Mo. 1.
MR. HLifOlfi Your Konor, we object to this
witness reading into the record ltees in evidence
now, over our objection, and it speaks for Itself.
THE COURT 1 a n right. In the scant 1m
so that I will hear it, and it will be heart by
all of those involved, we will have it read
outloud into the record.
A (Continuing) "Mr. Lusk stated that at the
present tlm Norfolk ter sins 1 has three separate
seniority rosters covering yardMn at that point.
511 *.
i i ... . ....
M. Mirtln - Olftot
H« Mlo one roster Is aid* up of Barney todnen|
on* roster of foraer Virginian yardmenj and 0m
roster of original II ft V yardnsn. a« lUt«d if ,
a n d when any rosters were lntagrated in any r n n a
on Norfolk terminal, they wanted tho Barney yard I
non Included In Such lntogrstlon. At this point
I
Mr- **»»* *ald wo should novo on to Ite* Me. 2. !
No stated we were not through with itea Mo. 1 and
wanted to discuss it further. Ve asked If Item !
No. l was « request that any or all seniority j*
rooters on Norfolk terminal be integrated. m.
Lusk stated that Item Mo. l was not a request that !
any rosters be Integrated at this tljni. mean.
Pesnort and hook concurred.
Ih*. Lusk said none of the restore could
** integrated until the employes invoiced decided
to do so and stated the natter of lntegratJjm
seniority rosters was entirely a Brotherhood
■■tter. He said they Just wanted to get it in |
the record that if any seniority rosters at Norfolk
terednal are integrated they want the Barney | M j
non included.
Nve asked if anythin could be done by the
oarrier to settle item No. l. nr. feanert
'BO' Bud stated Itsa Mo. l «as j*at a
57 Ja,
612
I
raquaat that if any of the Norfolk tamlnal'a
seniority restart a m integrated la a^ faahiaa
thay wanted tha Bar nay lard nan lnaludad. Rr.
Room aald ha concurred.
Mr. Luiic a tat ad tha oarrlar could not
grant Iten Bo. 1 aa thara waa nothing to grant
llaea I tan Bo. 1 waa nothing but a request that
Barnay yard nan ba lnaludad in any furthar
intagration of roatara at Norfolk tarodnai. Ba
aald thay naraly wantad to go on raaord with
thalr request. We told than tha lattar la
waa a aattar of raaord.
"'*• Ngdln asked Nr. Luak If his lattar
datad August 30, 1967 was a Baotlon 6 notlaa.
Ha rap Had 'no' and atatad that It waa not m a
a request that any roatara ba lntagratad at
tlna, that it waa naraly for tha lnfaraatlon of
® * M. Martin - DjLrwot ^
Mil
ba no Intagration of aanlorlty roatara at Norfolk
tamlnal in tha futura unlaaa tha Barnay b h
aan ara lnaludad.
I
rtlh». Psanort atatad that whila It an Bo. 1
waa not a roquast for Intagration of tha aanlorlty
roatara, auoh a raquaat will ba Md« in tar. m».
Lusk aald thin in not a raquaat for Intagration
61AS. N. MrttB - Direct
I
i,
I
U.
of the rosters but such a request might be filed
later. Ha aald the preaant request la for
Information only and It la Intended to ahov the
deaira of Barney Yard nan to be Included la any
Integration of aenlority roetera at Kcrfolk
terminal baeauae they have been excluded from
agreements in the past."
Q All right, Mr. Martin. Would you refer
back to the second page of Exhibit Bo. 18 for the Norfolk
and Western, and the flret sentence of the third paragraph
beginning on that page which refers to a Section 6 notlee.
Can you explain what a Seatlorn 6 notlee la.
i
A Yea, air. When either the organisation
or the railroad wants to change a rule or to ask for a
new rule, a notice has to be served under Section 6 of the
Railway Labor Act. The notlee Itself did not state that j
it was a Section 6 notice, so that la why the question wee
aaiced whether It was Intended to be e Seetlon 6 netlee or
j
not.
j
Q All right, sir. Is the railway company
able to change an existing agreement without boglanlng by I
a Seetlon 6 notice? !
A No, sir.
3 passing then to Norfolk and Western
Exhibit Mo. 19, I ask you the date of that aonfaremaa.
5 7 « 3
615
lodger
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
*
A
Ootober 19, 1967.
taa «ho M W prasant at that aaoTaranaat
^ A, P tn o m And m yself.
**"* u 00 bahalf of tha rallaar — T Uft
b«h»lf of the railroad.
* w> w Pr— jat on bo ha If of tho grand
*r* *• Lwk, tho goaorai
low about tho iooal lodger
Local Chairnan Rook. m o
urer Peanort
pooplo at tho October 21
conference?
A
What was tho subject of tho conference ?
A continuation of the first confereme
Read than into tho record lion 1 on that
* • ® M ®» Objection on tho sane grounds
as before.
U S court* teas objection» c o m ruling, I
sans exception. |
A (ContUnOng) "Mr. Lusk said their j
position in regard to this itca was tho saw as
presented to us at the last conference. Be said
5 ")5
■ I i
0
10
i 1
11
1 5 j
ilb :
17 I
is
10 j
20
21
>■>
2;1 :
21 j
thl* l« not a request that any seniority roatara
be Integrated in any Banner at this tins. Re
aald the natter of integrating the roatara vaa
'an internal natter’ of the BUT and whan they
deaire to Integrate any of the roatara they would
contact us. Mesara. Peanort and Rock concurred.
Mr. Peanort stated aone eattera had to be worked
out before they could request integration of the
rootera.
‘Itr. Lusk finally aald that no action was
necessary in thia ltee. Re said the WKt Just
wanted to go on record, concerning integration of
the roatara in the future. Re said their request
is now a natter of record and should be held in
abeyance until such tine aa request is aade to
Integrate any rosters."
Q Mow, the position of the enployes through
their representatives having been stated in October 1967,
after that date, whet requests, if any, did the RCrfolk i
and Western, to your knowledge, receive for integration
of these rosters?
A None.
Q And did that carry down to the date that
this ease was brought on June 2, 1969?
A Tee, air.
E. M. Martin - Direct
5 l b »
Q Between October 19, 1967 cad June 2, 1969
when thin «u« wee brought, there wee no further requect
or any further diecuaaion on this subject m i h «h f^p
integration?
A no, air.
Q What happened in the fall of 1968 on behalf
of the railway company with reference to the 1ategretIon
of theme roeterm?
A Cto October 31, 1968 the carrier wrote a
letter to the general chairnaa carving notice to dovetail
the two ceniorlty roe term at Merfol* terminal.
m. WQRTHDnrOMi Your Boner* I have been
acked by eouneel with reference to Plaintiffa'
Exhibit 31-9 which ic a letter of October 31,
1969 from Mr. Bethea of the railway oontunjr to
ibr. Luca of the grand Lodge, to ctlpalate that
cone handwritten notatlanc Juat under the date of
I
the letter be dicregarded and I an perfectly
willing to draw through It. what It caye ic
"What brought thlc on," and it wan written on
there cencidiere, and thic copy ahould not have
gotten in here. so it la stipuletod that ic net
part of the letter, and I will draw a line through
it.
THE COURT 1 z won't decide the came on the;- j
5 ) 1 ^ !■
E. M. Martin - Direct
baaia of that atatcacnt than.
BY MR. WGRTXimONs
Q 1 hand you Plaintiffs' inhibit 31-9 and
aaic jrou whether or not that lottor la tha lot tar that you
rofor to?
* Ida, air, it la.
Q Would you road tha aaaoad paragraph of
that lattar than, addroaaod to Mr. Lusk, algnod by Mr.
Manotta on bahalf of tha railroad osa^any lata tha reword,
d "We propose dovotailing of tha aaalorlty
roatara of Barnoy Hard nan and Borfel* taralnal
yardaM and would appreciate It If you would
arrango to aaat with iaa at your aarliast
conventonoo to offoat thla aa aoan aa poaalblo."
Q Mew, the words having boon streak out by
stipulation that were cm there, X will aak you what
brought thla on. I will Leave it with you If It would
help.
IBB COOISi What oauaad tha lattar to be
written.
K. M. Martin - Direct 5^3
Q What oauaad tha lattar to be written?
A xt had bean tom tl— tinea anr**»«"g
5 7 ^
E. M. Martin - Direct 619
had bean done In this case, and to gat the ease moving
we proposed dovetailing.
Q What was the position of the railways as
far as the roster of integration for these two seniority
districts is concerned?
A v#e had no objection to putting the rosters
together.
Q Mow, what was the feeling of the railroad
as represented by your position as rules supervisor as
to the desirability of Integrating the rosters or one
method over another?
A It would probably work batter fear us to
Ihave topped and bottoaed the rosters. But dovetailing
the rosters could be worked out.
Q Well, which would be the better from year
!
position in labor relations and eaploye conditions, method j
to have been employed?
A Topping and bottoming.
Q Mow, following the iseuaaee of that letter,
what change, if any, did the railroad taka in its position
aa to ita willingness to integrata thaw# rosters?
A We had meetings on this latter.
Q I am only talking about the integration
of the roaters now. las the railroad aver ehangod
position aa to being willing to integrate the res tore?
K. H. Martin - Dlreet 620
A Mo, sir.
Q Mow, what conversations, if any, war* hold
on the subject of integration of the roster following the
lasuanee of this letter of Oetober 31, 1966 between the
railway company and the representatives of the unionf
A On November 13 and It, 1968, we held
conferences with vise'president F. A. Bardin of the united
Transportation Union and general chairnen K. T. Lwsk.
Q What waa the result of those eenfereneesT
A Aa a result of those nnnferasesa we
proposed a neaorandun of agreement to top and hottest the !
seniority rosters between the Barney Yard and the C* Yhrd.
Q Now, who asked that the topping and
bottoming be used rather than the dovetailing?
A The eaployea or the general chairmen and
■
the vice-president were of the opinion that they mould net
reaeh an agreeasnt between the two leeala to dovetail, but
that possibly an agree swot mould be reached to top and
bottom. So we proposed the agreement to top and bottom.
IQ Z hand you than Norfolk and western Bxhlblt
Mo. 20, and ask you If that is the nsmormadum agreement
that resulted from that conference ?
A Yes, air.
MR. WORTHUUrdls is there any objection
to that going into evidenoe.____________
j
j_ E- *• Martin - Dir act gai
i
MR. BELTON: Thar* 1* th* objection,
**• Worthington, we expressed before. wa win Ml
object to th* exhibit. Th* only objection w* heni
' | on that exhibit, lb*. Worthington, in th*
handwritten note* on it. That la th* only
. ih objeotion wa hay* to It.
MR. WORTH DOT QWt Let a* see if wa oan
s authenticate that then.
o
BT MR. WORTHXJNTON:
̂ Martin, there la io*i handwriting on
th* oeeoad pas* of Defendants' Exhibit Wmkmr 20. Whoa*
handwriting la that?
A That la nine.
Q When was that notation put on there?
A November 14, 1968.
IT 1Q Well then, this purports to deal with scat
conferences you had with Nr. Martin and Lusk on what date?
A Noreaber 13th and 14th, 1968.
Q So this handwriting was dona oontoaporanaotMly
at the tine?
A Yea.
•R. V C R U W O R i We offer this la toto
which would be Norfolk and Western txhlblt No. 20.
JMUrOHj The objection wo ware not
5*61
622
able to eatabllah with raapaot to tba Mwrtadua
or the notes nsde on It that it waa dona in the
regular oouraa or bualnaaa.
MR. WORTH MOTOR* x taka It than that the
objection la withdrawn?
M S COURT t As to the handwritlx* on the
second page it only Indiestee that aoplea of
that agreement ware hand-delivered to Ifr. Hardin
and Luetc and aa the wltneaa haa indicated, ha la
the one that aada the notation of what treewplred
and what waa to happen, I will admit it.
Tour objection la in the record.
(Neaorendua agreement effect ire 12*01 A. H.
Decanter 1, 1968 waa narked Defandante' Exhibit
No. 20 and received in evidence.)
I
M E COOT* Let aa look at the reat of the 1
exhibit a aoaent.
ML WORMMOrONt Yea, air.
M I COURT: All right, air. Oo ahead.
I
BY Ml. WORMSMTOH*
Q Referring then, Mr. Martin, to the
notation at the - -
THE COURT 1 What la the nuaber of the
5 $ 2
S. M. Martin - Dlract
S« N. Martin - Direct 623
exhibit?
THE CLBUCs
by m. wcmumroMi
r 20, YOur Honor.
Q On the seoond pace, the handwriting on
Exhibit 20 of Norfolk and bestern Exhibit, would you explain
what happened with reference to Nr. Hardin and Mr. Lusk.
A Aa this note indioatea here, we gave them
copies of thia proposed oenorandun agreeaant, they were
going to go to Norfolk terwinel and talk to the two ledges,
and then oontaat us if the two lodges agreed.
Q And did you hear further frou these two
gentlesan on thia subjeet after that date?
A Mo, sir.
bell then, the next oossnuileatlon you get
freai the unions was the suit that was filed by 97b j is
that correct?
A lbs, sir.
Q And that is this present set ion?
A lbs, sir.
<4 Mow, what contact, if any# did you haws.
Mr. Martin, with the air hose arbitrary dispute?
A I handled it, or handled the negotiations
on it.
Q ball, Z think the record would shew —
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*• M. Martin - diroot 624
**' *°*T«W<2T0lf. Plaintiffs • Exhibit
No. 30.
BY HR. WORTHINGTON j
0 **f*”4~i to riei.tlff.< Exhibit no. « —
**'*rrl“9 40 Exhibit rtlch 1 b~ 4
roo. .hewing thnt th. l..t re^.t, th. oely ^ . . t
th. union on tbl. .abjoctthet hod nt boo. witbdrn», or
*i M P"t A" *W y “ °* “ M. 1MI, 1. . letter
from «r. »ro~, Ommmrml chain*., to Mr. no.il, vio*.
P~.ld.nt of the Morfolr end ~.ter. ,*ii„.y cm— ,, t.
that oorraot?
H». UOTCH, I objeet to the .la... textlfy-
*"* to tbl., rour honor, hee.uae it 1. . lottor fro.
«r. no.ll to nr. « ~ « , « . it h.. not 1 * „ eeteb-
llUMd he faun,, enfthlng .bout the l.ttor.
•wythiag about th# ltitsrt
WR, WORTH IMfOH i
0 Do you
* Tm , air.
TH* COURTt Lot's find o«t what ho
boforo ho ldontifios it.
T MR. WORTHINGTON:
What do yon knovjbottt it?
N. Martin - Direct 625
* ’ It h n I l r u d r b««o
Introduced to •T ldum u, Tour Honor. I don’t th U ^
we t»v« to tnUtallMit the exhibit.
™ COCTETi A U right.
«r m. wanwimrowi
^ Mow, what o ther dealings had th e r t boon*
to /cm r knowledge, daring the period th a t you were ac ting
In jrour cap ac ity as ru le s superv iso r over the a i r hose
a rb i t r a ry th a t had not been withdrawn or delayed u n t i l th la
date?
A Would you l e t as have th a t question again?
Q I w ill t r y to shorten th i s th ia * up. There
had been previous dealings over th e s i r hose a rb i t r a ry fo r
the Barney Yard peoples had th e re not?
A Yea, sir.
Q Mow, had asgr of thee
to
by ne t e i th e r being withdrawn or delayed up u n t i l August
1966?
A The previous ana had been withdrawn.
Q So was th i s the f i r s t e f fe c tiv e request
re la te d to the ra ilro a d or not?
A Yes, sir.
MR. K lS d d Wa o b jae t on th e
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I. N. Martin - Direct 626
It has not bMn shown that tha witness has any
identity or dealings with this letter at all. ye
are not objecting to the authenticity of it
because it is a doounent he has before hla now.
THE COURTt i can't listen to both of you
at one tine. Non, what connection did you hare
with whatever this exhibit is, i*. mrtln?
TOE VETKKSSi This letter was passed on
to as by the vice-president for handling.
™ * COURT* And you handled it on behalf
of the Merfolic and Western.
TO* WITWSi Tea, sir.
TOE COURT! And the foots contained in the
latter, whatever they are, they are known to yea
firsthand?
TO* WITNESS i Tea, air.
TKS COURT t Under the oirounstaaees Z
adnit it. Els participation was enough to
his discussing the exhibit.
*• WORTOmorCMi All right, sir.
n MR. WCRTKIMOTOMt
Q Mr. Martin, after receiving this letter
dated August 22nd, 1966 which is Plaintiffs' Exhibit 30-6,
itifcat did you do on behalf of the railway swftnj as te
■5
handling n ?
A i handled this with owr vice-president and
general manager in charge of the Atlantic Ration 0f which
Barfoik terminal la a part.
3 And what did you do aa to reaching a
declaIon aa to whether thia request should be granted or
refused?
a. M. Martin - Dlreot
A The vice-president and general — r*r
reported that the Barney Yardmen ware not —
Q Did you conduct an investigation or net?
A Through correspondence.
' Am5 'rt-̂h what person did you eorreepond on
this subject?
A With the vloe-president and general
manager of this region.
Q Is he the person or not who la acquainted
with the conditions that you were trying to find out about?
A Tee, air.
Q Is thia within his Jurisdiction?
A Tba, sir.
Q Bow, as a result of that investigation,
what was developed aa to whether the Barney yard people
were or were not doing the air hose work from the
information you had?
* The vloe-president and general manager
58 7 *
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IS
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I. N. Hlrtln - Direct 628
reported that they war* not performing the duties spalls*
out In the air hoaa rule.
Q Mm the decision then that was made la year
office adopted by the railroad eoegmny baaed on that
Information?
A Yes, air.
Q What importance mas attached to the fact, If
any, that the people that were asking fear the air hoaa
arbitrary ware bleak?
A This had nothing to do with It.
NR. WORTH INDY 0M i All right. Answer
Nr. (foody.
i
CROSS SXAKDUTIOII
BY NR. MOODYi
Q Nr. Martin, going back to sane of the
negotiations that hare bean related here today an
atteaptlng to work this problem out, was this i
o on temporary with the approximate time asms previous
discussion had been had regarding the rlgita of the
Virginian man who had aerged with the Norfolk and Western
Railroad at this tine?
A This was s oast lam after that.
3 Later on?
• • a* ^ V4Q - gpoil
A Its.
* H M th*” b**n ■«• dleeua.ion U to «fc,t
going to to*, piece regarding th. right. of th.
fro* the Old Virginian Railroad on the Horfolic and vaatern
•eniorlty rooter.. Had thl. been dla.ug.ed7
* Hot with *e it had not been dl.«uge«i, no.
air.
- ~xx, wnat i think these letters, or at
loaat one of these letters aaeene to indicate there had
be« n . diaouaaion about ao» Integration of th. roaWr.
“ « d 1 a. referring to the i.ttar 0f <*tober, «
th. *e*orandu* or October 2, i<#7 ta whlch lt ^ ^
««1 1 a* reading down hare in the botto. of the riret
Paragraph.
** aaked u ltmu *«• 1 wes a request that
any or all asnlorlty rosters on Merfolk ternlnal
be integrated. Mr. Leak stated that Xtea Ro. \
"** not a that any roatera be Integrated
at this tias."
What brought on this particular discussion,
do you recall, end why «u It put In th. «mnar In uhloh t*
«»• put. Ii you itnou, that If Integration of roeWre
t*"* p1* " ’ 10 tnat ca»*. «b*t were th.y referring to.
What rosters, do you mum?
I was referring to the three roatera that
5 1 1 k
A
w. M m Xhleh «r« covers In that p«r.«r.ph, th. k m , M j
ro»t«r, th. CT ro.t.r u d th. forner VlrglnUn ro.t«. 1 !
™ ^ »!. ... . r.q»,t t. u , „
all of those.
i
* And, aa I understand It, the position both j
of Mr. Rocic who waa local chairman of 974 at that tlat, and i
Wr. Peanert who waa secretary-treasurer of 974, and Mr.
Luait who represented the ore, that the/ were net — ^ -c a
request at that tine for the norger of the Barney yard
roater with the CT Yard roater. Bat if any w r g m took
plane, which, of eourse, could only be probably the
Virginian roater with the other rosters, that if that
took plaee the Barney yard wanted to be included T
A That la right.
Q Mow, waa this oonferenee which waa bald at
that tint, the uaual and euatoaary persona that took part
in such conferences, that la the local chairwn for 974
representing that roater, and the loeal, and the at Tatar/
treasurer for 974, and Mr. Lusk representing MTU, and
yourself representing the reilroed, would this be the norual
group that would dlseusa those things t
A Mo, air. This la not the noroal group.
Noraslly only the general ehalruan and g/aeif neat. on
I
certain things they do bring in a loeal ohalraua.
^ Right. Do you remember or know why
5 10 ̂
B. M. Martin - Croat g^g
Mr. Rock or *•. Pssnort happened to be attending these
■•stings when nonsail/ they would not be attendii*T
I. M. Martin - Cross gjx
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* 1 think they were probably there as
advisors to the general ohairntfun.
Ml, HKIffONt Objection, We object vnless
he knows as a fact.
TIB COURT t If you know, say so. If you
don't,say so.
j
TXX wiTMass* I don't know.
« Ml. MOQDYt !
Q Mow, was there a request by the nan froa I
the fornsr Virginian to serge their roster with the 1 1 V
roeterT
If) A Mo, sir.
Hi
!
Q There never was a request?
17 A No, sir.
18 *
1
Do you know if that natter oana up far
19
|
discussion with the m 4 w Railroad end its present
20 esployes or eeployes at that tine?
21 A Mo, sir, not at that tine.
22 Q When did it cone up at sow other tine?
23 A At the tine of nergar between the Norfolk
24 and western and Virginian. It waa discussed then in
23 1959-
j
E. M. Martin - Cross 63*
1 ! Q What was the decision as to whether that
roster should be merged with your H a w employee at that
tins?
The decision was they would not be
I
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12
Q In other words, the old Virginian or tormr
Virginian employes were not permitted to insert their
seniority rights Into the roster of your employes at that
tine?
A ho, air.
Q And if they came on that roster they would
bwa required to too* at tha bottoa of jour aanloritj
H a t ?
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A That is right.
Q And they chose, I believe, to Mints in
their own seniority district rether than to do that j did
they not?
I
A Yba, air.
Q Mow, going again to one of the memoranda —
this la dated October 19, 1967 — in which Mr. Luaa stated
that this was an internal setter of the BRT. Is that a
31 fairly sorrect atateasnt with reference to the samer of
negotiating setters of this bind between the railroad
the sen, that the BRY, or at the present tins the VHU
1
would take an official position and relate their position
2-’ | to you?
512 K
K. N. Martin - Cross 633
A That is right.
Q And you could not act until ths parties
eaas to a Mutual agreeasnt on it?
A That is right.
Q And it would ho an internal natter in this
instance, or situation of this kind in which the WKt or ths
present VtV would take up aaong their asabershlp, and after
they acted upon it they would ease to you and Jh*. Lusk, or
the general coalman would be the party to eem to you with
the poaition they were taking?
A hi, air.
Q Do you know what poaition Local 974 took
regarding the proposal of asrgsr -- and lot's take these,
if 1 nay, 00a at a tins.
First of all, do you know If they took the
poaition cither for or against topping and bottoming?
A No, air.
Q You do not know?
A Mo, air.
Q At any tins in your conferences with
parties concerning this, did any representative of 974
Indicate to you that a particular type of nerger would be
satisfactory te theai or unsat iafact ery to than?
A No, sir. 1 don't know.
You do not recall any position they took
C 0 7̂ ->O/o
Q
on an/ proposals that wsrs dlscusssd?
A Ths request at this tins was that If an/
r os tars ars Integrated thoy wanted ths Bams/ lard son to
ba uade a part of it. But tha question didn't arias as to
whather It would ba topped and bottoaed or dovetailed.
Q And you do not rseall at any tins a
representative of 974 Indicating that ha would not ba in
a grease nt with topping and bottaadj^t
A No, sir. I don't recall it.
Q Nor would you recall anything, I believe
you stated, as far as idiathar they would b# agreeable to
any othor typo of aorgor of tha rootersT
A Ns, sir.
Q Now, 1 understood you to testify In
connsetlon with the oonferanee of Oetobor 19, 1967 that you
heard no further fros Nr. Lush after he ladlsated that It
waa an Internal natter, was tha re any further request by
Losal 974 to the N O W Railroad, to your hnowlsdga, after
the nesting of October 19, 1967 ashing a request for any
type of aergetr?
A No, sir.
Q Are you aware of, or do you have knowledge
of any further conversation, official or otherwise that
*** — wall, let's stick with being an official. Aay
further consideration of this natter by Local $50,
S ’H/x
I. M. Martin - Cross 534
B« N* Martin - Crocs €35
12
II
I!)
**J*^'*r ihojr took It up offlctally cod acted on it or noty
A No, sir, I do not know.
Q You do not know?
A No.
* And I bollovo you otatod that tho first
Itos In this lottsr of August 30, 1967, tho first mattor
In thsro was a raqtwst for topping and bottoming. You had
s lottsr, I holioro?
A Too, air.
Q Dated August 30, 1967?
A Yos, air.
Q And you had no othor roquost othor than tho
roquoat for topping and bottoming?
A Mo, air.
Q doing hack for a no— nt, lot's ass if I san
clarify tho position of the M * W on this asttsr of
dovetailing. 1 believe you tsstlflod that topple and
hottoning would bo tho bottor solution to this problem,
in your Judgment?
A Yaa, air.
Q And is that tho official position of tho
N O W that tho topping and bottoming would bo tho
preferable solution to the problem?
A Yaa, air.
<4 What la that based upon?
S c15 ^
X. M. Martin - Croat 636
A Vo hava had oxparlaneo with topping
bottoming rot tort at othar points, and! it tea
••11. It would ba a sort ordarly prooaaa to tap
bottom than to dovetail. in dovetailing j w would
•ora aaa that would ba going into a foralgn territory
than you would hava undar a topping and bottoming
of it.
Q And to carry that further, la your
la railroading, and particularly la tha
., k m you had eaaaalaa to ana* of otter
iastanoaa ^ this has boon triad, tails dovetailing
of ,»uddon integration of atraxut* group* of u n into a m
raatar and putting than togothor on orown. Do you
of othora who hava triad ttett
A go, air. ua teoa had aa lnatanaa
Q Mat on your railroad, but aro you
any othar rallroodaf
A Mo, air.
Q And la your opinion would it not «
•oaplcta dlaruptlan of tha affarta to aarry an tha
In aa ordarly and prapar aaimort
A Yes, air.
MR, moodyt That la all. Ttean
n s COURTt All right, air. erase
5 %
X. X. Martin - Cross 637
BY m. BALLUtt
Q NT. Martin, you ststsd that la j m t
eapaelty ss roles supervisor /os had knowledge of this
letter concerning the sir hose role sad the request for
application which was dated, X believe, 1967. I don't
haws a sop/ of this before as. This is ~rrt r 10-6 .
Farhaps we saa get a cop/ of It. Here it Is. It is
dated August 22. 19661
A lbs.
Q You stated that /oa had a knowledge of that
letter?
A Tbs, sir.
Q Although It was set addressed to /out
A Tbs, sir.
2 low did you hare a knowledge of that
letter?
A When it was resolved by the vice-president
sad general aaaagsr, the vies-president of pets panel, he
noted it to as for action sad handily.
Q X see. was this contained as part of the
records, the files that the vise-president aept esaocinl^
the air hose setter?
A lbs, sir.
Q Are you aware as to whether there had been
any previous requests to have the air hose role applied
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X. X. Martin - Cross w
to aarnoy Hurd mnl
A Too, sir, tbcrs have boos.
Do you to ow approxlootely whoa those
roquosts bogaat
A Ho, sir. x 4«a't too* whoa taojr bagsa.
Q X show you s lottor which is slfhod by
H. 6. Wyatt, Vioo-prosidont and ysasrsl sssayr. dated
January 9, 1959.
XX. wamxMrcxi wo as* that tho
wit 000s bars tho advantage of tha ontlro exhibit.
Tbsro is s tools batto of oorresyeeieaeo oa **»«■
tolai, tod X don't this* too witness ow** to bo
••tod to ro i toor bass 12 sad 13 yoars tooa tha
otoibit is alrosdy is ovidenoo. it is Stolbit
Xo. 30, FlalatJLf fa * Inhibit So. 30»
t o CXJOUU xo ass it.
XT MX. BILLS* 1
Q X astod you to look at too soooad ys«o of
that exhibit, which la tho lattar X an referrla* to aoo.
Xa tho toxt of that lottor, dooa this rofor to a yopaaot
uhloh had boon aada to hors Artlolo 41, Soot ion 4 of too
rmttomm'* acreeasot apply to Barney Yard f o u n t
A Yds, sir.
__ So that at loaat as lot* a*o as
5 rn x
Q X
B. N. Martin - Cross 639
1959 there had boon such a request aado?
A Tee, air.
Q Aro fan aware whether there aoro any
requests aado between 1939 and 1966, the data of the
letter in Exhibit 30-6?
A Bo, air.
Q Zf you alii tun to — z thiaa it is
Exhibit 30-5 in that aaao pooka pe- There is a latter
dated August 30, 1963 addressed to Mr. H. C. Wyatt, Senior
▼lee-president of the Barf oik and Western Railway. Zs
that a letter amah yea are faaillar with?
A Vm » sir.
Q Is that a letter ahloh is in the files
asintained by the railway with resard to the air hsae
eentrewersyf
A X would say yes.
q And is it a letter which eenatltwtes a
request by Mr. 0. L. Brown that the air hsae role he
applied to
A
Q
ly Tare erews?
lbs, sir.
Ssw, yea stated that
investigation performed by the railway
nether the Barney Tare asa ware performing
listed under the air hose role. And yen
that they were net.
ta
stated alas that
- 4 ----
Would you be
X. M. Hart in - Cross
opociflo. woo tho rooult of that lnvost lotion
they woro not roqvtlrod to porfora thooo dotloo, or
woro not aotually porforalag thou?
A Tho roport woo that thoy
to porfora
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Q Ssgulrod by whoa, or by whatf
A A soporvisor.
* I ooo. so you dlseovorod that thoy
not bolag rogulrod, 1a foot, by tho t
to porfora thooo dutlos?
A Hi! air.
Q Did you portiolpoto poropaallj la
investigation?
A Wo. air.
Q D U y a iaapoot tho aarooy M at
of tho lovostlgntlon?
A No, air.
Q So you aro rolying oa tha
rooolvod by wfcoovor invostlgatod this?
A That la right.
Q Mow I aa a littla
aattar of tho aoparato seniority
for foraor Virginian an. Aro you
by <
with that
2-) Too, air.
koo 3L
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tho anBrtnhui rogarding tho oorfirinii, or tho aaonrtntai
aarfcod now as Dofandants' Exhibit Ho. 18 —
Ml. VCRUQnrOHi 1 this* It would bo
holpful boom# tho daiM i n |lna — X think | w
haro got tho auBbora wlxod up. X think that in
Exhibit 19.
Mi. BALLSRi Nr apologioo thou. fain
Pop! 4 or Exhibit 19.
BE MR. BAILEEt
Q Boo, this l o a n N o i aoaaar— oonforonaoo
— ieh joo atatod foo ucro in ittoiduoi. XB foot, you
vroto thio o m h n M i T
A XOs, sir.
q Boo, on Fagt 4 if you will allow no to rood
it, it otatoos
"Hr. poroooo otatod wo had rooolood a
ooaplaint f r a tho BE 00 and it own word ad wavy
alallar to tho instant roqwoot."
Gould you toll wi oho Mr. fordo— iat
Nr. faroo— at that tlno waa eo— gar-
For tha Borfolk and Vootamf
Far tho Borfolk and boo tom.
A— ooold you Juat, ao thoro la — doubt.
I. M. Martin - Oroaa 650
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could jou olorify «hat in referred to by the instant
mqnont at that point?
A Tho instant roquant rtftmd to thoro is
referring to tho latter received free general Ghalrmn
Lusk dated August 30th, 1967 la which thorn w e fire
lteas listed.
how, would you please read lade the rooted
the follow ins fire or six liana of that Muraml— tfcleh
you wrote.
A Beginning where?
Q loglnafng with Mho said."
A "an said ho tlm # i tho two aattaro
should he taken eare of at tho saae tint. ho
read tho item listed la tho BOO report, which are
as follewsi
*ha. Tho neat ore of Tidewater Led**
hunter 7fk, Brotherhood of Mallread Trsli— n.
are not hole* allowed to examine or work over the
I. H. Hartin - Croon ^
white yardana. m , wo am aoahamdkf tho aaao
oraft or elaaa."
Q That la i l l that Z thim la horn relevant.
Wtm, would yew not nay that that eoaotltuten a rotueot for
tho ooapaay to ooasidar awrghr of them roe ten?
A __ ho, air.__________
(oOX K.
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S. M. Martin - Cross 65*
Q Mow* you hawo also tostlfiod that tho
aospsny was oonooraod to try to rooolvo this asttor. to
fsott thsso two aattors to— thnr, to pot tho soot aorta*.
And eonsoquontly s iottor was wrltton owor Nr. Wswtts's
slpnaturo proposing dovotalllJN. Tow statod that ttes
ssapaay, I bo 1 taro, fait that tspy! in. oad ttrttMrtiN would
bo bottor, but that iowstalliJN ooald bo w M outj is
that sanrost?
A too. sir.
Q Tow also statod that your foalta* that I
topping tad bottom s « » a saparisr asthsd for laftogratta*
tho Baraty lbrd and aain yard rostars , was a a m o r of
official ooapaay polloyj is that ssrroott
A lbs, sir.
Q was it a aattor of offisiai ooapaay polioy
that dowotaillag ooald bo uirtod oatt
A too, sir.
Q Did you ooadwst say — wars you iawolwsd
with Nr. Hanotts at tho tiaa this Iottor van bo lx*
proparod and wrltton r
A too, sir.
Q Aad disowns ion about tho atrprf
A About tho anrpsrt
Q Z aa sorry. About tho poosiblo asthods
of aorporr
(O 0S d' -
«53
h. Mrtlj) — Pfon
THB COURT i or tho ooniarlty lUt.
WITHESSt Zba, ilr.
** Ml. BALLKRi
Q Could you glvo «•
Involved in thoM dlaouaoloan la
aubjoot nottor?
A I do not hoy* a
ltfoa of Wtttt M l
of tin
«PPWf'Mtly hold on
10 ■ <**•*•* 31, 1968.
i i
12
US
M M this tho
twrolyod in oetatiiaiiiae >k< *
offloloi
14
lb
17 !
1 9 j
20 '
A ®m , air. i
Lot mo dlroot
iottoy. Thlo la a aopy of iMObit 31-9
roforrod to nony tinoa. If z on eormt,
fImt PMogroph of that lottor nf»y to, I
hold?
MS.
to thlo
doaa no# tho
1
Via, sir,
It aaya.
22 i
20 |
2 4 l
I
tomLnol, and
19, 1967, and
1968?
A
>7 hid
hold Ootobov
TMnary * and 22nd. and
$
2 and
1 M 16,
Too, air.
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1. N. Martin - Cross W
Q That is six conferences?
A Mot with Mr. Musette.
Q Mot with tt*. Mtnsttar These art
conferences between Mr. LakY
A Tss.
Q And eoopany offlolala T
A Right.
Q Which coupon/ offlolala wore involved la
those eonforonoosT
A X would have to shook the file to see, hut
X was pro coot at asst of them.
<3 Do you know what the swbjeot natter of
those oonforonoos was?
A Various things dealing with H u n j Hod
Q Did it also deal with the dovetallij* of
seniority rosters, including the Barney Yard raster, and
did it deal with topping and bettering of those rostersT
A It dealt with the fire request a listed in
the general ehairscn's letter of Atigaat $0, 1907.
Q Mow, did those fire requests Include
consideration for requests for Merger of the seniority
rosters. The five requests which were the subject natter
of these eoafcreasesf
A ___ Xt did not request —
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X. N. JXrtln - Crocs 655
Q Z think this is rotter slnpls.
Ml. VQKHXMKONl LSt tte Wilmas I M M T
tte question, please.
A (Continuing) it did not request a nerger
of tte seniority rosters. it was a request that If there
was an/ nergar of rosters in tte future, that tte Barns/
Yhrd sen would be considered.
BY Ml. BALLXRt
Q All right. Bow, in tte sours# of these
conferences, do /eu recall whether neuters or representatives
of Loeal 974 were present at tteae conferences?
A Yes, sir.
q Were tte/ present at all of then?
A I don't know.
Q Do you recall whether tte die awes Iona at
tteae conferences included tte different and vary apesifis
seaae, tte different naans ef bringing about sitter
dovetailing or topping and botteadng if tte future uargar
ef tte seniority rosters should he requested t
A Yes, sir.
Q It did?
A Yea, air.
q 80 that you discussed different ways that
topping and bottosing night be carried out, and tte
<o0lo
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1 . N. Martin - Ot o m 656
different ny» dowttlU^ Might bo carried out?
A We didn't dittos* ths different art hods.
At ths tine we sisply diaouaaed ths request that if s
asrgsr too* plsss st sous subsequent dots that Ite Barney
Yhnd non bo Included la that aargir, regardleua of idMlt it
was.
Q Did you than proposo dovetailing of ths
seniority rot tort without prior diaouttloa of the nsthod
of carrying out tho dovetailing?
A lea, sir.
^ Did you than expect that request for
dorstailing would bo agrsod to by ths unionsf
A We didn't, no.
Q But had thoy agrsod to it, you wars
prsparod to go along without haring oonsldorod tho urthed
for tarrying out dovotallli*?
A Bo. wo would have had to hart sons
prowlsioas and haws agroonsnt aa to ths Manor in Mlah it
would bo dovetailed and how it would wort altar
dovetailing.
Q I soa. But you did aa a usttor of
official onupany policy writ# a lot tor statist
"to proposo dovetailing of tho sonlority
r os tor*, ths Barnoy lard nan and BarfoUt torulnal
yardnon and would approolato it If you would
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*. M. Martin - Gross 657
U'l'tafi to aNt with vs at thi urlltst ooovcbIa m s
to sffsst this as soon aa poaaibla."
A 1m , air.
Q And you aajr you hadn't oooaidorod tha
■•thod for worrying oat this?
A (Mo roaponao.)
Q to what Mail 414 you taotify that
4ovotailing oouid ho vovtood out?
A mil, it oiapiy oaa bo waatoad out.
Q la that prooost aagpany polioy, dovtlallhh
•aa bo woonod out?
A hi, air.
Q Mow, aooordlng to your oolXoativo
bargaining agrooaoat with tho dfaitod Tranaportatian dtd.ee,
oaa you aogotiato an aattara of thia aaturo with loaal
unioaa iadopuudaatly of tho pa natal ohaiwa?
A Mo, air.
Q Mom, Mr. Moody aahad you about tho
oouaoguonooa you fait night Oaouo if thoro uaa iaataat
dovotailing of roatora, aad z bailor* you atatod that tint
aad bad for tho nan?
A 1*0.
Q Aro thoro othar uaya that tha aaalavlty
». W»«r«t«l <Ah T Mm unWa* 4—f l l l—t
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S. N. Martin - Croat *93
A Thay ton bo toppod tad bott
k Aro tharo othor m u that M t
bo dorotallod without lnatantly plating t
»jr Ibrd nan la tho CT Yard, tad a largo
mi la tho lorn*/ xtrd?
A I don't know Mitt tho aathod
air.
of
of e*
would bo, no.
Q Mow, that la tho onljr waj
dorotaiilag working?
A Tho/ aro tho only two aothods
of.
that Z
Za that what you
ita?
proponing in thin
A
Q
out of
A
Q
A
Q
lmolvo
Jobo?
A
Q
a
Poo, air.
Do you onvlaaga that thla
oaont Jo bo?
, air.
It would?
pan, air.
Can you oarlaaga dowotaiilag
lntogratlon of tho
hr topping and buttoning,
la thoro any way within tho
for• of nargar a noro
ton tout of
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on
could bo wood T
A If you agree to dovetail you would havo to
have an agreement as to the way it would bo l^lomnted.
Q And could that include a acre gradual
approach to tha replacement of non from their oaiiont johof
A Its, sir.
Q Could that be worked out, that kind of an
lap lamenting agreement?
A 70s, sir. it would have to be an agreement
between the railroad and the general ohalnmi.
Q I see. ftxt it could bo worked out?
A Ha, sir.
MR. BALLERi Bo further questions.
THE const All right, sir. Anything
further.
M. WOKBDMBrQVt hit a couple of netters
on redirect. Your Konor.
HXDUUKCT XXAXZBATZOH
H. H. Martin - Cross
by m r. voRaumroHt
Q Mr. Martin, you ware asked about gone
portions of soon of the writings in this ossa by Mr.
Bailor, and I think it night bo helpful to havo the rooovd
straight, that the other relevant portloaa of those an^
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I. N. Martin - Redirect 660
d cements be referred to tt the — m tine. could you tin
Exhibit 30 — I think you etili here that -- on tie rriirml
A Exhibit 30?
Q r»m. i think you were inked if that did
not refer to i o m request* about the air hone arbitrary
in 1959. In that right. That in in the first
paragraph?
A Tea, air.
3 Would you read the aeeoad paragraph of that
letter into the record then.
A "During conference today it wee Mutually
understood that your request for application of
Article 4l, Section 4, of the yardma's gin-iil
to Barney yard foreaan and Barney Hard ear rldera
wan withdrawn without prejudice."
a So that all the request* up to that tine
were withdrawn by the next paragraph of that letter | in
that right?
A The, sir.
Q Now, lot's refer than te the fourth page
of Exhibit 30 of the plaintiff. Thin was read, x think,
by you an a letter of August 30, 1965 requesting
consideration of the air hone arbitrary) in that right?
A Tea, sir.
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<61
Q What dMi the wry next letter at ate abut
that request, In the second paragraph?
A *Ifc was also understood that Am to the
moratorium Involving arbitrary allowances aa
contained in the November 20, 1964 agmmnt, oar
request for the air hose allowance for Barney llirt
■en would be withdrawn without prejudice until and
***** Jaly, 1966, whloh la the expiration Bate ef
the moratorium."
Q So that requeet also waa withdrawal use it
not?
A Hi, air.
Q Now then, we will pass to Exhibit Be. 19 ef
the Norfolk end Western, in whiah you ware a « M to m m e
portion ef that exhibit on Page 4. I think yea ware
asked to readf were you act, the first ltea which related
to the Barney Tard eaployes net being allowed to eaareiae
or work over the entire Norfolk terminal. Bid you vend
that into the reeerd?
A Iba, air.
3 And would you read the first paragraph oa
the sane page, muaber one, quoting lb*. Parsons.
A ”1. This complaint dees not exist en
far as the carrier la concerned became wa have
not received a requeet that any ef the seniority
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662
roetara ba Integrated.”
Q Than you wora m m , i thin*, tr *. sailer,
whether you M M i i i m d tho first <iuott that you v w
of that ptfi aa a request for Integration of tha ro
and tha w y paga i tee If ahowa that you 414 not j la
oovreetT
A ha, air.
nr. vcm m arai au right, air.
W cowar i Anything further.
■races HANnsriai
BY NR. MOODY s
•4 Nr. Martin, just a eeuple of gaastlans.
Tha f ornar Ylrglnlan nan that aauaa to tha 1 1 V hat boon
oarrylag out tha saaa duties and functions aa thasa a m
that wars wonting out on thia ratio proposition, had hssa
doing tha saaa thing as your nan an tha Of Tardy had thay
not, hrsnanan, aanduators, d s n a ratio ana uasfcad ant
to too an tha f ornar traaaaan an tha Ylrglnlan and thasa
on tha R O W , f ornar sondustesu an tha YlrglaAaa and thasa
on tha M h V?
A Tha ratio ana nomad out by tha amftsr of
arena axis ting at tha tlna of nargar on tha f n n r
Ylrglnlan and BorfoUc and western.
*• M. Martin - X t d i m t
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*. N. Martin - Rttreti M 3
Q Yhara vaa no oraaalag of olaaa or «rtft
lima?
A Mo, sir. A ratio «f a r m .
«. waSKXMBOHt Thank you.
TBM COURT: I U right, air. stop down.
(Vltaaaa axeuaad.)
m COURT i oantlanan, It la tan nlimtira
aftar ona. tfa will ba la raaaaa until two
o'aloan.
(Raaaaa.)
jg g g a p q j i w i y
* B COURT* All right, air. call yonr
naxt wltaaaa.
****** mimamd WUUKRT. aa Had aa a wltaaaa
hy and on bahair of tha Narfolk and waatasn, bal^ firat
duly i w m , ta at if lad aa follawai
DIRECT XXAMXXATXCM
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H. 8. M a o r i - Direct 66*
t. w (Ml
State your nano, please, air.
Matthew Bdward Peanort.
Whoro do you U w , Nr. peanort?
Fortaaouth, Virginia.
Hy whoa are you employed?
Q
A
4
A
4
A
Q Haw loas Haro you boon oaployod by lla
Norfolic and Western Railroad?
A Twenty-fly* year*.
4 Haw, In 1967 what position, if any, did
you have with Local Lodge 974?
A Secretary-treasurer and sesnotsty of
the grievance ooaaittea.
Q What ooeaeiea, if any, did you Nava ta
participate in conferences in October 1967 with tie
aansgansnt of the Norfolk and Western Railway
the general ehsiman of the irothcrfeeed with reference to
Harney lhrd eaplopes and working conditions far tfcasT
A X attended aonfaranaaa in with
4 I hand you than two
bean narked in evidence as 18 and 19, Exhibit*
Norfolk and Western, and ask you have you
examine copies of these naaoranda to
ion to
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N. K. Ntoort - Direct « 5
the
accurate as to what thejr cay?
A Yea, I hare.
Q Wow, particularly aa to Item l in
eeuorandua, what U your recollection aa to -jitthrr
language concerning ztea 1 la theae aaaorenda la
or aotT
A This la correct.
^ you ei— lnert the reat <
^ *■* ^ fair to aay you don't res*aber whither all of the
thlnga were said In there that are recited f
A Dot all of them.
<4 Mew then, passing to another aatto
caae up, Z hellers la 1963 or 1966 concerning the
of the neae, or the title af the employes la the
Ihrd frea ear rider to hrsuowe, aad from f c r u M to
conductor, did you participate in a ecnfarai
subject 7
A «ea, Z did.
<4 What, If anything, do you rember
about one of the reasons for this change being that the
eaployea, particularly the car rldcra dcaired the m u m
changed because it would help thus in getting credit and
otherwise, the title had aore prestige to it.
A well, this was one thing that was
up by on# of the
(olio l-
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N. I. Naaort - Direst 666
ttmir nans should bs changed as all other parties.
wr m. hocdti
Q Nr. Psanort, X ai coins to got into soi
things that you have not particularly got into on your
direst, and x any salts you ay witness if asooasary far that
purpose.
Do you recall the conferences with Nr. Lease,
■®t * believe Nr. Martin and ethers, in connection with
whether or not any type of nergar hght take plaoe between
the Barney lard uen and the non os the Of yard. Do yea
recall aeetings at which you attended to discuss that
subject?
A lbs, X do.
4 Now, that saver resolved Itself, and
apparently the parties were uneble to case to an
agreenent. Do you recall if at one point in the
discussions Local 97* was offsred topping and bettsadng
by ths representatlvee of the WTV?
A yes, they were.
Q Do you recall that?
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A Yte.
K* ***oort - cross M L
And st o m point is it not oorrsst that
ttas representatives of 97^ indicated that that ■igh* to
• satisfactor/ solution to it, from their standpoint?
A Wall, with soma changes.
4 With some othmr changes ?
A Yes.
k Mow, that is misrs you ran into a staiomatsj
was it not, the other change* brought into it that a m r
w * resolvedi is that eomotf
A hen, it is hard for as to career that
oorrsotly because right at this time I was taken into
management and was off of the ease. so what further steps
they took was beyond my knowledge.
k Well, let me go book and see if x earn
clarify the situation. la the last instance is you
were aware of what had taken place, et that point toppiig
and bottoming had been Indicated aa a possible
satisfactory resolution, end in turn your group thot*)*
that would be satisfactory, but there was saw other
matters that you brought into it, or were brought into it
id&iah had to be further considered?
A Well, as far as I can recall it was
offered. Bottoming end topping was offered to the Barney
Yard people.__And as X before stated some in n
(? 1%
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had to bt uada If it ware going to bt lootptad.
Co you know that thay weraT
A I believe tht ohtngea, at X ana raaall,
tha paragraph la that agreement atatad that that# a»a would
not bo allowad to wane any o— rgaaay work In tha or ttrt
until all othagr boards and pot it Iona out thara had bass
exhausted. And, o1* eouree, this was not aaaaptabla to
tha nan.
Q Right. And without that, or that waa out
of tha things that at that point caused a stalaaato in
wowing forward with tha topping and bottoningf
A As X bofora atatad, at this tint X waa on nr
way out and X rosily don't know.
Q X undarotand, and X an not trying to
oatabllah that this was tha final position of 97*, baoauso
you worn not involved at any lator negotiations. 1st at
that point it appeared to bo agrooabla with oartain
exeeptloas whiah you fait should bo brought in, or whleh
was folt by 9T* should bo brought into it If they wore
going to top and hottont
A wall, 2 bollswo to thet, if X oan roeall,
that thin had aanathing to do with BOC too.
q Ritfit. X boliowo tha BOC anas into it .
Were you there when tha BOC, tha eouplaint had haoa aada
and BOO aotually got into thaaa aagotiatiowa. Vara you
N. K. Peenort - Croat £66
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M. 3. Piuort - Cross 669
there then?
A I was With then In ths frrgl Fining sf It.
Thsy have had maeroue oonfsrsasss sines I left.
Q Right. Hoe, do jou resell If HEX took
ths position that their organisation, or that ermaisatlen
was net satisfied with topping and bottoming even if ths
nea on the two hoards were satisfied. so /on remoter if
that toes plans mils you were
A X really denft
Nt. moodyi a n right. X think that is
all.
» do it
A It is
4 Thank you. X think you testified is
referenda to a m ast lea put hy Nr. Verthiagtm that yen
had s m art ned the dtiassents that you hare hef cops yes*
Identified as Defendants • inhibits IS and 19?
A Right.
Q men did you have an opportunity to
these doeunents T
________ A X had to assnine part of it on the first of
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tho «Nk.
Q Of tills VMk?
A rifht.
Q Who brought than to you7
A Tho lwyar.
0 Do you rooogmlso tho lawyer la mrtl
A Too.
0 Woo It tho lawyer who oxanlaod yeet
A TOO.
0 Did you tootlfy la roforoaoo to hla goostlssui
aftor tho esan loot loo of whothor or sot tho not tors reanrdod
sro oorroet or aot, sad z thlak your soapooaa was oil of It
Is not trust
A Tho port that I hod rood.
0 Would you toko o noneat, ploans, and look
through thooo two doeunoats aad poiat out to thoCourt thooo
ports that you fool oro aot o oorroet rooordotlon of tho
discussions that wont so at that tins?
NX. WQXTBHfdTOMt Z Sbjoot to tho Com Of tho
M. B. N w o r t C70
guostlen. Tho vitaosa dldo't soy that post of tho
stotanoato wsro not trus. Mo sold ho didn't roooll
sons of tho things boiag sold. That lo o llttlo
difforont.
about
to Z
TO COURT I HO eoa rood
As I roooll his
1#
than, ana shot ha ooŷ
it woo with ro#
things that hod to do with tho
w d a.
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M. E . Feanort - Cross en
the memorandum said, but there vara otbar parts
of the memorandum daaling with othar subjects that
he either had to examine, or was not full/ In
accord with. Is that what you said, Mr. PaansrtT
THE WITNESS) That is oorrect.
THE COURTt what about the others.
MR. BALUERs T*»t Is tha Uttar area x am
trying to get into, Tour Honor.
THE WITNESS) There is oae thing --
MR. BEUFONi Could you identify that oaa
by exhibit number, Mr. Feanort.
THE COURT) Lode on the front page and
say what number it is first.
THE WITNESS) X sea the page, but I mas
trying to find out what it refers to.
MR. WORtHUNTONt X think ha U looking at
IS, Tour Honor.
THE COWTi No. Ha shifted after you all
left him.
IKE WITNESS) X had to ahift because X
couldn't find it. I can tall you it was aaa af
tha exhibits which stated that tha motor power
sit down for sight hours. This was oas thing
that X was in -- I don't recall stating this. X
any have but 1 don't recall stating that.
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m. KUfOMt Just tales a moat, I*.
Poaaoart, baoausa wo would ilka to --
TUS v m m s s t On Exhibit 18, Xto* Bo. *.
N. E. Foanort - Crou 67*
Q Would you road that portion. Nr. Paaaort.
V COOKSt What part of It do you
llitffii with.
n Ml. KXffOBs
Q That you havo raforaaoo to.
A Part of Ztou ho. 5- It la about tte
sooond llao, tho float paragraph.
Q Would you road It, ploaao.
A Uo aald tfeoa tte plora aro oloaod all
Banoy lard aaa aro out off and walh tte atroota
whllo aotlra powor dopartuant oaplayoa alt doua
for olgbt hours aad do nothing."
Yhla la tte part that X dlaagroa with. X
know notor power. Ttey aro thara, but tbay do haro
rarloos joba to do.
q Mow, at tte tine you oxanlnad tteoo
doownanta, Nr. Paaaort, did you oxaulno any otter doenanatn.
Aad X oall your roforoneo to a doouaant ldoatlflod as
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N. 8. PoAnort - Cross 673
Would you tsjce • sonant to rsad that.
A lbs.
Q Whan is tha first tint you saw that lsttarf
A This waste.
Q Tha sans tins you asaalnsd tha othsr
mts?
A lbs.
TVS COURTi What lottor was that, tha lattat
offering to dorstall tbs unionT
m. KJfOMs Do»sstail oar topping and
bottoming, yss.
Mo further quaationa.
THE COURT t All right, stap d m .
Call your noxt witnass.
(Witness aaoussd.)
fit n*Wi- a* a uitaaas by
and an bahalf of tha Marfolk and Want or n, bains first duly
■ w ra, tastlftad an follows <
il_____Stats your full nano, plaasa.
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J. Parsons - Direct 6 9 *
being first duly sworn, testified as followst
DIRECT EXAXDMTIGN
BY NR. VOKrSXMffONi
<4 State your news, please, sir.
A jaaes Parsons.
Q Share do you lire, itr. pars asst
A Roanoke, Virginia.
4 By whoa are you employed?
A NorfoUc sad Beaters Railway flssiny.
Q Sew long have you Bees la the railway
business?
A Fifteen years.
<4 How long have you Been esplayed By the
Norfolk and western Railway Oenpany?
A Slightly sore than six years.
Q And before you were esployed by the Norfolk
aad western. By whM were you eapleyetf?
A Pittsburg and west Virginia Railway
C flaps ay.
q What is your present posltlea with the
Norfolk and Western Railway Coapany?
A As assistant vise-president.
4 And what speslal duties, if any. do you
695
***** wUh Nf#w » w to the c u n Rights Aet?
* 1 Ml the IfltM — >--- -
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opportunity offloor.
^ Dose that a*an you are tha aqual
•■Sl°7»nt opportunity offUor for th. M t r , anS
waatarn systes?
A IN.
Q Hon long hay# you hold that position, and
tha position that was prelisljiarj to ltt
A August 1, 1968, X bailors.
3 Whan did you taka m r fra* nr. Rahn
prellslnary to becoming on August 1st la this position?
A Oh, firs or six souths prior to that who*
I was In tha parsonus1 dapartaant.
Q Sara you at that tlaa working with )fe*. Rahs
and gradually taking over his dutlasr
A Yea.
* Warn, before wo gat into th* gaoarsi
policy of tha railroad on this, I would hand you
Defendants' Exhibits 18 and 19 which arc the sasoranda cf
oonferaasos held with reference to tha raster sartors asd
•sk you If you hare aeon those before?
A Yea.
Q Ware you present at those eoafas*iieesf
________L ____ ?bs.________________________ _
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Q What occasion hare you ha* to ***«<"*
those aaaoranda for accuracy?
A Well, z road than several tlsss. They
arc accurate.
Q They are aoourete T
A Tea.
Q New with reference to the Item Mo. 1 is
both of these conference exhibits which relates to the
integration of the roeters between the Barney Yard and the
CT Bard, what was the position of the union with reapeet
to an existing request for integration at that tUw. This
being October 1967. was the union ashing for integration
at that tine or not?
A No.
4 After these conferences, what further
requesta. if say, or discussions, if any, ware had ateat
the integration of the Barney Yard end the OT Yard rosters?
A well now, are you referring te these two
nestings, the nssorende of these two nestings?
ns COURTt After that.
J Parsons - Direct £94
Q Mellowing those, what further things
happened about this Iten 1 ?
A I as afraid I don't quits fallow you.
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J. r m o n i - Direct 697
Q I will try to make it a littla clearer.
There were b o m dissuasions, ware there not. In October
1967, about a future rerger of the Barney Ihrd renter andi
the OT Hard roster j is that eorreot 7
A lbs.
Q what further negotiations. If any, took
plaee regarding the future Merger of the Barney lard roster
and the or lard roster, if any?
A With the unions, none.
Q with the unions7
A Bone.
Q Bo further negotiations j is that oorreetf
A Bee.
Q Mow, what happened with reference to the
possible aerger of the two rosters in October 19667
A Well, in October 1968 the cosy m y preyessd
a dovetailing of the reetere.
3 I hand you then Plaintiffs' Xxhiblt Bo.
31-9 and ask you if the proposal la enbodied In the isttsr
which ecnposcs 31-97
A lbs.
Q Can you tell us what lod up to the
issuance of that letter 7
A Well, the eonpaay was interested la
integrating the rosters and there had been as
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J• Per*ana - Direct 696
of
•t ion for sometime, so w proposed the dovetailing
rootoro.
4 for what policy reasons, if any, waa tha
interested in intogrotlng these rosters?
A bhat polio/ reasons?
^ »oo. The oompany, you said, woo
lnt«rMl«d in intogrotlng the rootoro. Why woo it
lntorootod in intogrotlng the rootoroT
A Because the non requested it, end wo had no
objection* to it.
Q boll, whet port, if any, did the
existence of Title VII of the Civil Righto Act hove in the
company’* policy7
A boll, the oonpoay woo quite lntorootod in
Maintaining every effort to ovoid any discrimination
ogoinot the bine* people.
Q bow, hew did the prooodure ohoooo for «f
by thi* letter of October IX, 1968 fit In with the
requirement* of the Railway Labor Act?
A boll, the oonpoay eon not unilaterally
change any union agreement. The only way it eon bo none
io by negotiation with the union. So wo prop need
to negotiate with the union on the dovetalll^i of the
rooter.
-Q—
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you had in law?
J. Parsons - D iro o t
A I an a lawyer.
Q Maw, what lava than tear an tte il is Urge
of tt carrier with ita employes aa to working conditions
and ao forth?
A Tte Railway Labor Aot prlnarlly, hat alao
tha Federal Rnployers Liability Aot.
Q tad what othor regulatory rulaa or lam
*PP±T to a — — an oarrlarf
A Zatoratato Conweroc Cn— lialon.
^ Mom, aft or the laauanoa of tha lottor of
October 31* 1963 suggesting tha dovetailing of these
roatora# what negotiation*, if any, or what--- mrlf^lnw.
If any, wore had with the representative* of the union?
A X don't recall any further written
ooaaunleations. There were aovoral nestings with
representative* of the union.
Q What was the toner of the conversations
that were had In those nestings?
A hell, the tenor of the conversation was
that the — I believe that the feeling waa that the u><" m
night be willing to top and botten, but were aot willU^
to dovetail.
Q What waa the position of the railway
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J. Parsons - Direct 700
A Vs 11, It was lavatorial. Vs didn't oars
whsthsr they retained the seniority districts, whether
dovetailed or topped or bottonsd.
Q What was said to tbs union poopIs oa this
subject than?
A Vs inf trust than of that.
Q Aftar Ootohsr 31# 1968, what Information
did jrou reoeive hash slthsr from ths general chairman or
from ths local as to whsthsr they wars asking for
intogrotion of ths rosters and as to what basis ths
integration should talcs plans?
A Vs hoard nothing aoers.
q What was than ths next thing that oans in
ths way of coasBonlcation on this sabjsot?
A Ths lawsuit.
q Sow, passing than to a partloalar nattor
whish rolatos to ths ns got U t ion of air boss abrltrery,
what part did you haws in that, if any?
A vail, I sat in on ths asst lags talking
about it.
q Is this primarily handlod by hr. Martin?
A Tbs.
q Mow, bogianing in 1968 whoa you took over
f m Mr. Hahn, what was ths policy of ths railway company,
if any, with rsopset to ths Civil Rights Ast and its
631 k
J. Ptresm - Direct 70?
, BY MR. VGRtHZMSTOH:
2 Q I asked hi* if he was familiar in the
3 ah*n®i OMRBer of black employes. As a setter of
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feet, it la stipulated certain ohai^es have taken plane.
This witness sap or say not know personally about it,
btWuM 1 B** prepared his only on the system figures.
A Mo, I don't know, epeeifically.
MR. worth DOT QV » All right, sir. Answer
Nr. Moody.
not coders Cress-examine.
CROSS -SXAMZXACXOK
BY MR. MOODYs
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3 Mr. Parsons, I believe you renalned la the
courtroom during the trial j have you not?
A Yes.
Q You heard the testimony of Nr. Martin that
the present position of the Norfolk and Western Railroad
was that the preferable solution would bo a topping and
bottoming of thsso rosters if any typo of ms rear were to
take place. Arc you in accord with that position?
A Baaed on what X have boon told, ywa.
Q And why would you take that position?
A Well, it would appear to provide for an
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J. Parsons - Cross roe
ordarly way of doing things rathar than a alas bang
asthod that sight oausa all kinds of problem.
Q In othar word a, it would ba your thought
that to do tha dovataillng would ba a dlsordarly way. It
would disrupt tha norual procaduras in both yards) would
it not?
A 1 would think so.
Q And in tun, as you hoard frsu *». Bryant
who tastlfiad for tha H I V , oould wary wall
safaty hazards in both yards) aould it not?
A Wall, it appaars so. I don't t m work
in tha yard.
Q Tou would agras, baaad on what you hoard
in Court?
A Yas.
Q And your offorto to your polity proposal,
or your proposal daailag with tha problaa was out of ywur
concern, to ba sura that you did osuply with Yitls VII
of tha Civil nights Act?
A Partially, yas. Vs didn't want eaytfcb*
to occur wfaara wa would ba aaausad of violatii* tha
Civil Rights Act.
Q Tha l i v has s largo nuahar of
govsrnaont contractai doaa it not?
A Not vary uany.
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709
Q 1st you do hsv# gnTsmssnt oontrests?
Well, I would ssy very, very few, actually.
Q Mow, ss fsr ss tbs lottor that wss written
to Hr. Lusk, I believe dstod Ostobor 31, 1968, la which s
proposal was aado, z believe you stated that proposal was
aado regarding dovetailing, fsr tho purpose of
assetlatloasf Is that oorreet?
A well, any proposal we astae la for the
purpose of negotiation. We can't teas unilateral action.
Q X understand. in other words, you would
net feel that it would be feasible to dovetail the rosters
_ of these two yards without further negotiations regarding
the basis of sash dovetailing?
A No. * 17
Q There are asay, asny probleas that weald
be involved\ would there not?
/ J . Parsons - cross
A 1 would casual» there are s groat asay.
Q Right. And iKMBS of those would be ss
wss pointed out In soaasstlon with the Virginian, on whet
basis the dovetailing would tabs place, and you would not
nooosserlly propose aa equal out aad out dovetailing as
aa equal basis of the two yardsj would you?
A Noll, this is sons thing that would be left
up to our labor relations pespls. X wouldn't propose
anything speelfle. This is not in ay bailiwick.
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n s
tha oourtroaa. Ha Is over at our orranaol Aabla.
TKX c o m I All rlsht.
• !ii
L l 9u JSPQ&f*s M • witosss by and
•a bahalf of Alts QalAed TraaoporAaSisa Halos, balms first
i
duly sworn, AssAlflad as follows s
I
DStBCT XXAKXMMTXON
BT M , WOODYt i
Q BAata your nfesa sat address, plasso.
A s. 0. H a O m .
Q Wbin do you lira?
A 23513 Daws Giro la.
Q Whose sra you saploysd?
A Norfolk sad VasAsra Railway.
Q How long haws you hssa saploysd with ths i
Norfolk sad WSstara Railroad?
A Slaoa 1928, about forty-throa years.
j
Q Whoa you want As work for Aha Norfolk sad j
Waatarp in 1928, shat type of work did you flrsA basis
with?
A I was saploysd as a sail bay.
Q A sail boy? That is AhaA?
__ ___ B. C. Me gown - 01 root n 9
] A Call orowo.
!
Ii THB courti i havo hoard of a oall girl.
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but not a sail boy.
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tt Thoy aro two dlfforont typos of o^leywnt,
i X gathort -
8 A i
TbAt la rlgpit.
i
9 Q Tho work that you carrlod out thoro, did y w i
10 b*lon» to • •» *»»•* *1— or Join • mnum at uat tlaat
11 A Bo, 1 did not.
12 Q You did not?
13 A 1Bo. 1
14 Q
}
All right, air. bhoro did you go to to
15 •PPly for rone oa that oeeaalonf j
10 A *o tho Sonora 1 j u d a u t * at that tlaa.
17 Q Do ran roaau two jrau bappana, to got a jok
18 working, how you happonod to know about work bo lug
19 avollablor |
20 A Ny fathor was a gonoral yardnaator at that
21 tiao, and I had an uaclo thoro that had provlously boon
22 • poaral yardnaator.
23 Q Bow, how long did you work In that i
24 capacity? II
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25 A About 199̂ .
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g . c . *#<»o<wn ~
And uhat d id d0 th*n?
I w n t in to th. t w i n wrtlo. tw n «
7«o
-— 4 -
in 193*>
A
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into t M train wanla* j How, when you «•** xn*° 6 j
4 U r « ao into twin
OB t M IWTfolK towln.1-
,»b if you recall# uhttAW And would jou xr ^
or B „ « - W — - ^ ^ “
th. .lM«lfl«‘l0n »“ * " “ ** * * " ’
» h . *-*• 1 — * w * " W ‘ *
eight at that tiae.
- union at that tine?Q n u row 3oijn * ^ ____
mined the union on JWlJT ®» 1 **U A tea, I join** tne w u
it was# 19***
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w t union did y«« iclJlT
of M l l r - w * 1— •
MMt 100.1 di* r » to’
Local 550*
M the eaaxup •* th0 would yow tell m
. h.w - t tint ineef** •* *ho of Local 550 at that tin.
.. Afiteria for hcing a end chat was the orltcne
Local 550* anlT
A „ u , .. «-* « - » - * • “ V
lod„ th.ro 1» -orrolh .. « U f«r « - -orf.
tpainacn a lodge
western Railway*----
E. C. NeOown - Direct 721
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q Do you know If the Barney TW had tajr typo
an organisation at that tins?
A Ttey had aoat type of organisation, but Z
don't roeall tho m u m of it .
q was It a separate organisation from 5J0t
A It vaa.
q whoro did yon work or what arooa did ye*
work in in your oapaoity an a brekeaan starting to work
in tte tornlnal there?
A X wortoad in tho torninal whlob oonsistod
of, at that tteo, of Port lock yard, Lahborts Point yard
and Norfolk yard.
q For what period of tins did yon work aa a
of
A As a torekcnen up until 1935- X
to conductor in 1939*
q Lot as ask you this. Pro* your
observation in tte Norfolk terminal, are tte dot lea of a
brakoaan on those yards tte sans or similar today as they
wore from 193* to 19397
A Generally, yes.
q Would you toll ns what your duties wars aa
a braicauan during that period of time7
A or course, tte bramaman wee supposed to
assist the ooadueter* aUGteg up trains* ted switching tte
1. C. McOown - Diroot 722
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oap« of ttaa •Unifying trains aai asaonbling trolM.
towping ooal.
And la doing so was it nsooaaary for ym to
mow tha various signals involvod la handling trains?
A Qh, yta. You had lntorloosing
sad fiaad slgnsls.
^ Mist sro laf r loosing signals?
a Thst is signals govoming your diroot ion
through sa intor loosing plant.
q Aro thay oontrollod by aoso olootroaie
•quipasat or by hand, a aanual oporationt
A in sons inataaoos thay aro hand, liman y
In aoaa Instances thoy aro oontrollod by
trains at
•lootroaiaa.
Q
orossiaga?
A
Q
A
<4
A
no olootron
Q
A
Did yoar von inolodo handling
tbs.
Vorkiig on trains at crossings
Ysa, air.
What doss that involvo?
It involvos flagging of tha
Did it involvo handling dorailat
Ybs, it lavolvod handling dorailn on tha
industrial aiding.
E. C. NoQown - Direct m
Q What is that?
A Sidings throughout Norfolk terminal where
industries are loeated.
Q What la a derail?
A A derail la, I guess you would classify it
as a -- I don't know how exactly to tell you. mere Is
cone type of derails, the type called a Hayes deraller,
and a type called a Smith deraller. The Mayas deraller
is a heavy type object that fits over the rail, sad sons
of then are operated from a switch. The other type is
operated by a wan pulling then off tbs rail hlwsalf.
Q In other words, sows of this required
annual physical operations or work?
A It really did. In fact, whan they first
put the large Hayes deraller In, I think they weighed shout
90 pounds. It teak two nan to handle It, and they ware
something to try to get off, espeelally la the winter*law
If they were frosen.
q Do they still do this type of thing on the
Norfolk yard?
A lee, air.
q Do the Of Thrdwen have to carry out this
type work at the present tine?
A oh, yea. it la part of their duties.
q All right, sir. How about handling ths
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1 k n u o fe
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E* C. MaOowa - Direct 724
t# « H
I'M, air. it is metisary tiaii
Q What do thoy wolghT
A 1 would aay oloao to around 70 or «aybo
pouads.
Q la thla a port of your dutloa, or wao ttla
to actually lift and
A Oh, yaa. If you aro in position
** can’t got any aaaiatonoo, la ardor to hoop tho
you tort to porfam thooo dutloo.
Q A u rMht. How, oro you fonUUr with
wane cm what U known aa the
Wall, I wouldn’t aay I an familiar as far
Q Did you havo an opportunity ovar tha
r* Wat thoy aro doing on oooaalonaT
A Taa, air.
Q Do you know of any work that thoy porf
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£. C. MoOown - Direct 725
that la sort strenuous or nora difficult than the wat
carried out on tha CT Yard?
A Not that I icnow of.
q Would you consider this work to ba w w
BMBlal or more dirty than the work oa the QT Yard?
A Mo. air.
q What would be scan of tha work oa tha Of
lard that you would consider to ha dirtier or Juot aa
menial aa tha work on tha Barney Yard?
A Wall, whan wa shore ears UP an tha hump
on tha Barney Yard, why If that wind Is blowing yen pm%
about gpt oorared up with eoal dirt by tha tins yarn B*t ta
tha and of the hump. And you hava to phyalaally haadla
tha hand branss on It to apply tha hand brajeaa.
q Mow, to physically handle tha hand tmhs,
whare do you hava to be to do that?
A Down between tha oars on tha and af tha aan,
the location of tha hand brans aftilah la on tha atop.
q la it located up at tha top of tha aar ar
at tha bottom of tha oar?
A In moat cases tha brans
I would say, about four or firs feat
ear. But In scan cases wa hara had
brakes was at tha bottom of tha aar.
3 In any ease whan you
( ^
stap la Jaat
tha tap af
are attempting to
S. C. Modown - Direst 726
ojwptt# those brakes with loads of coal, do you toad to
get dirty from operating them?
A Absolutely.
4 Mow, you Mentioned when the wind is
blowing. How about when the wind is not blowing, but the
cars are easing in eontaot with eaeh other, and these ears
are loaded with ooai. Does this hare any effect on the
cleanliness or dirtiness of the Job?
A Any tine you work around ooal you are goi^
to get dirty.
4 Whet about the responsibility free your
observation as between the two yards. Would you stats
whether or not there is any acre responsibility on one
yard than there is on the other, and if as vhleh gas would
earry the seat responsibility?
A Well, X would say that it is absolutely
■ore responsibility down in the OF lard tea— e you have
aoro things to look out for. that is you are Involved
in switching through crossovers. you are involved with
orawa Moving on the aide of you, bask and forth, and the
nan has got to bo oven aoro alert down there where you
have a lot of crews working.
h Do the non on the barney Yard have any
signals to worry about that you know of?
____A Mot that x snow of.______________ _______
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E. C. Hodown - Direot 727
Q Do thiy h>v# id/ tnin orders to toooora
tHM»elTe» with in the Barney lbrd?
A Mo, no train orders involved at all.
3 Do the/ have an/ tins tables to know about?
A He tine tables. i
Q Do the/ have an/ croeainga to handle?
A Mo public crossings there at all, no. air.
Q Mow, would you tell as froa your sbeoivaiIan
or the work on the two yarda, whether or net a ana froa the
Maras/ Mid with equal aenlorit/ would be able te seas ever
and carry out the work on the or Ibrd, not having worfced
on the yard before?
MR. KUrQNi Objection, Tour Koner. X
thlak this calls for apeeulatlen on the part ef
tha witness because he baa not iadiaatad ho kaewa
I
aa/ of the people on the Mama/ Ttrd, and Sbat
f j
qualities or abllitlea the/ have.
m COURT t x think ho can aaioa aa
da it.
Tour exception la in the record.
- A (Continuing) X would aa/ a
have quite a difficult tins oosdng off; tha
oosdag to the CT Ybrd, for one particular
would not be faailiar with the
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■or* track*. You hawa about 500 trtoa, I would My,
within Norfolk tanoinal, or uora if you want to InoluAo
industry aiding* that ho would bo abnolufcoly loot on. It
would tow* him ©cunidorablo tino to got aaquaintad with tho
yard.
X. c . ltoOown - Direct 7*8
BY IK. MOODY*
q Now, how Ions do you think or
of ojcporloaeo would you think would bo ro*uir©d for • ■*»
to euu on tho Bnrnoy Yard and b© abl© to oorry out
proflelontly and fully hio dutloo ** a broko*nf
A Noll# wo would bo spooking of a nan of
I would aay that would tako# oh* «t
or floaat
1. »ny Job oo tho Mrmr to* oo^robloo In
rooponolblllty on# «utlo» to tho conduit or la tho OT TordT
A I don’t think thoy hhwo any typo tharo
ghat would oonparo with it# no.
q And what would bo your opinion an to tho
ability of • m o to ««•* tTom • J<* ** ttm **raay
« conductor, or with tho oonUrlty to »all »
cow oror to tho Cl Ttt«. Bo r>“ thlah ho oowl# oarry
out tho dutloo of O conduct©rt
A Mo# ©i*** 1 think ho would bo oonplntaly
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£ C. McQown - Direct 729
tin* as it
lost because the duties on the CT yard are entirely
different from the duties of a foresaa on the Barney
Q And what period of ties would you, froai
observation, think would be neoeasary for to learn
duties of a conductor?
A well, i would say about the sa
would a brmceann, three to four years.
4 All right. Mow, you stated you were a
brakenan frou 1934 to 1939. Since that tlua, what has
been your employeent ?
A what la what?
4 What Jobe have you held since 1939?
A Well, I have been yard conductor sines
1939« and In 1951 1 was prouotsd to ear retarder operator
I hold ear retarder operator now.
4 You wars conductor frou '39 until 1952?
A *51.
THE COURT* '$1.
IBS WITNESSt *31, yes, sir.
BY Ml. MOODY*
Q New, where la your ear
A Located on Lanberta Point
huagp classification yard.
posit Ian?
sailed %Im
Do you know your place on the seniority
730
ro«t«r in th« OX Tfcrd?
A Y... »ir. I •* on top.
. - Wa a m QQ f h®®q Sine® you h*v* b ^ n on
« u ..oiorit, -r.t« to “ * * * *
•m . ! * * . i» « - x '*11— t M *
A T » « , • * * •
^ of tho i«i««rlty
Q A n d « t u t 1 » t h o p u r p o ^ i o r ** » •
A » U . — . - — - — ~
* * u . U M - *• - * *•"— *° “ " nlWttr- . "
r „ t . . l o t o r P .O V , . — “ l t
f o r t h . r . c t « - t ~ Z »
_ - — - - — - - ' t ^ L * !
« * « . - - - “ - 1 -— - n r 1,. M tut * M-lWltT l» P~» »°*r |
bomrd to*1- °* m *
, _____[LMrtr o n m o d uarcn4t* 3T**r * o f * * * *own p***«*i p r o p e r *pu,PB
j*rfar»« ror th* **rrl*r _
u x umJ.ro t*jU It «-■ *"#
__ _ _ tt M T . • Molorltr «*t.r
.mlorlty ro.fr. « * » • • • « * - » •
„ „ „ ^ ^ r » >»f * “ •lorltTIn tho awn** T * m
or TfcrdT
A T h a t i »
* A ^ . o u * > - .ft. « w -
, « . « w n l o r l t , r a . f r f r o . « - m n r n r
4 _ , „ » * b . • v l o U t t f « f « -
« n d * t r t « i t w i t h tb* OX " o t t “ _________
B. C. McQown - Direct
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1. c. MsQoun - Diroot 731
seniority system as you understand it?
A I would say it would be,
q Would you state whether or not tbs seniority
system amices reilreed woric more desirable?
A It is an incentive. When yes first west
for the railroad, they gain in seniority whieb gloss then
I
prefers nee, maybe an easier Job, maybe a day Job. I*|t*
a night job. It gives them preference.
q And would you state whether er net it is
Important to have seniority in the efficient operetloa of
railroads?
A lbs, sir. I eartalnly do think it is
Important.
q Dees It lend itself to the stability of
the employment level?
A The.
q Wow, ware you present, or were you la the
yard at Worfolk when Local 97* saa formed?
A lbs, sir.
q What is the basis of asahsrahlp la 9T*t
A Membership in 97* i* for B*mey lhrd
employes on that seniority district.
q Poes the race or color bare anything te da
with it whatsoever?
A Mo, sir. ____________ ....
(oW
S. C. McOown - Dlreot 73»
Q Mow# I btllevt vhtn they far— d, originally
%hey hi— e pert of the Brotherhood of JUllreeA
e% that %&— | d w t— y not?
A Thet 1m right.
Q Which wee later ohsnged to tt* united
Transportation Union?
A mat is right.
Q Can you state whether or not yea know if
these sen in the Barney ferd ware given a choice of forelag
their own locals or seeing with another local?
A wan. at the tine that — to the heat of — ’
recollection the tl— Ledge 974 wee chartered, the Barney
Thrd a— loyes vara given the opportunity to petition
Norfolk Ledge 550. And it was by their choice that they
requested that they have their own lodge oa the Bar— y
Q Do you knew — y they chose to fora their
own organisation?
A fee. They felt like feat they weal4 he
in charge of their own affaire.
m. BSLffONt X objeet to thet,
T V COURT» Don't eay whet they
unleae yea can tell — who in authority with thee
told you. Otherwise it would be hearsay
I. C. McQown - Direct 733
BY m. MOODY*
Q Let no go back and aak acue questions
which ■ay change the picture on thia. M*. M*oown, have
you held a position in Local 550?
A Yes, sir, i have. Local chaiman.
Q And when ware you local ehairuan?
A 1952.
Until when?
.• A Until 1958. I think it was *58. Let m
see. I was local ehairuan from 1954 to i960.
Q All right.
A And then again from *68 to ' 69.
Q And in that capacity did you have occasion
to know of and consult with and be consulted with by the
■snbsrs of representatives of 974 with reference to tm w d m
a separate organisation or going with 550?
A ms, sir. Ms talked about It ear tlass.
Q And ahet wee that. You stated that
decision. Do you know why they aedc that dee la lent
Ml. KXffOHt Objection again on the s m s
grounds.
T m comer I unless you tell m whs It was
•pacifically that said that this was some decision
of the body politic of 974, then it is excluded.
TH* WITNESS: I think I can clarify that,
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Your Honor.
BY m. MOODY I
Q do ahead, if you eon answer 1%. I
A At the tine jfr. Frsd Gregory was a m bir of
Morfolk Lodgo 550, he was the first local ahalraui of
UsAgft 974. And i talked and discussed it with Mr. Or#gory j
aany tlass In regard to the Barney yard enployes that they
wanted working conditions hotter there, and ha o j'l gyg
the nan up there -- he had talked to than and It was their
opinion they would he m*ch better off if they had their
own local.
MR. HBUFOMt This is double hearsay. Hear
Honor.
TKB COURT: I can't hear what h. Gregory's
opinion night have been. it would hare to oeue
free sous other source.
m. MOODY: All right.
*. C. MoOown - Direct jy^
BY Ml. MOODY:
Q Mr. Mown, what are the advantagm or
disadvantages or having your own local In the felted
Transportation Union?
A By having your own local you can have your
own lodge officers and you can have your own local
6S» t-
*.C. MoOovn - Direct 735
representative, which is in contact with the carrier.
Q And do you have a delegate tc the
national convention alao?
A Tba, air. Each local haa a delegate tc the
national convention.
Q Do you have the opportunity to be
represented by your own grievance eoaalttee aa oppoeed to
aoaa other organisation grievance eooadLtteo r
I
A Each loeal has their own grlevanee
eoaalttee.
|
4 New. the conetitution of the United
Transportation Union was introduced, which wae in effect
!
In 1955. And on Page 72, dealing with — nbcrahlp, it
etates that In order to be a aaabar of the Brotherhood of
Railroad Trainman that the applicant shall be a white wile.
\
sober, industrious, and will have good acral character.
Can you tell ae whether or not that provision haa been
taken out of this constitution?
i
A Tbs, air. it waa taken out.
Q What part of it waa taken out?
A The part that applied to the discrimination j
against the —
4 And la there any provision --
THE COURTS How about the part that said
you had to be sober. Did they leeve that in there?
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S.C. MeGown - Direofc 736
THE VTTMESSi That wm» taken out too, air.
BY MR. HOODYi
q Is there any provision in tha present
eonstitut ion of United Transportation union li«itlag the
— perahip because of racer
Mo, sir.
Bo you recall whan that was taken otffct
About i960.
A m seen prior to
your constitution, wore
ware of the Macro race?
A Mas.
q Been though this was in the aonetitutlon
ttoay permitted them to seas in prior to i960 when it uaa
taken out?
A Mbs, air.
q Mew, one of the allegation* ia this anlt
is that tha Local 550 has bsen involved in negotiating
rmgm wont rants that have caused sons hardship on the
aufeere of 97*. Mould yen state whether or not the local
ledge has anything te 4e with negotiating sag* aashrastst
A The local lodge can asm 11 m a n d a t lass
prebahlp of shat they deaira to the general nnnslttee.
And tha gaaaral ohairaan nagotiataa tha aongmst.
Ic 5 ̂
X. C. McOown - Direct 737
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3 Warn, la a case where Local Lodge 550 tea it*
<nm organisation and Local Lodge 974 has Its own
organisation, who would oauce the rtao«aiwlstlain for the
of the respective lodgesT
A It would be done by the aeabershlp to the
Q Mow about grievances. Who would handle
fear the washers of a certain lodge T
A The local chairwan handles the grlevanaea
cn a loeal level. or course then if he earnest get the
1
grievances eerreeted they refer to the general ehatruen.
1
Q Mow, after you served — I believe yea stated
you served several tinea as loeal chalrma. What ether I
positions have you held in Leeal 550?
!
A Legislative representative.
Q And what is the function of a legislative
representative ?
A I handle safety settsre and setter*
regarding legislation. neatly through the ehalrwm of the j
— I wean, through the stats dimeter #f the legislative
board.
Q And ere you presently, and have yen been i
the legislative representative sines what, 1954?
A 1952. I
Q____ New, going bass for a assent to your posit lea
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am loool ch a irm an , what Arm tho functions of tho loool
chairoon la a loool?
A M il, tho sola function of tho loool
ahoirnan lo thoyhandle p i im ooa roforrod to his bjr ths
lodgo with tho loool offlololo of tho aorrlar, oaf than la
0000 that ho ooaaot git tho grlowoaeos ownrootod, ho
1
roforo tho grlowanooo to tho ganoral oholraaa far hand Hag.
Q Aad 00 o loool oholraao of J50, hovo ym
had Amy grlowaooo roforrod to jroa hr onruno to attoapt to
bring about o nor go r of tho rootoro of 97* oad 5 5 0 ?
A Sot to no, ao, olr.
q Mow, with rofoaroaoo to tho whlaa itoa lf,
do p « horo oar ooatrol or dooo tho loool, or tho m havo I
oar ooatrol over tho hiring praotlooo of tho railroad?
A Mo, olr.
) Again, going hook to tho goo at ion of oar
I. C. Madam - Diroot 738
aorgor roquoot, do row know of oar roquoat Or loool 974
during ]roar tiao 00 loool h iUraan to nont* with Loool 550»
A Mo, olr.
Q Mould 0 aargiup of tho two looala bring about
oar igo whoto00a»r with niforoaoo to w ark that thor do?
A Z don't 000 IMW It oould.
q that lo tho, If X nor toni it thin war —
Z bailor* yw ototod that tho wahorohl|i la tho loool lo
boood an whoro jrou work?
*. C. Mown - *lr~t TJt 4
1
A That U r lftt. It U os |w«r
" 2 ooslorlty siotrtet.
3 Q ymt oonlority AUftrUtT
4 A * •
5
q M U lBM0»l0i*i hu •ftttMV UM l ff%
A or 550 ooJLBtolaoo ««gr rooiolly *•*•*•*
w
l A Mot to ar w#
8 , T .|« r o m iMm M. m m i W >1*«W «I
9 boon lanrolYOd or e*s*sA *uj m + * r of 9ft to no <u<urlr-
10 of t t | a^n j i i i t or iUPMMtln opfortonltloot
11 a ttot to m
12 H H tM rM M *• *• *■** “ •* '
w 13 A *•» »*»•
14 a MM, <Mt M U k* tM «ffM» «C »1M*M
15 oa «M MT»r M . » m *M « • »*** * * * *
16 M M M O M M i prrrlM. «*»■*«■» - »■*•»
17 * MU. I XMOd MJT l* m»m M t »f « «
•
i)1•11(I11a>
19 ttrn dldo’t moo iiti— too* ooro solos# to Otort «Mt»
20 *a« Um itlUM # i if—r mhUI *•*“ « » « »*»**•
21 pootlty.
22 uhot n*«« «f yooa^ty m U too*
23 * «M «m 14 MM mm m u m , »WMM1
24W tmtmtu «M »*■ ■ ■ MM. MM Ml M « M*»m .
25 _______ a ___ ■ w m m * ** w —
t . e . m m - *****
,1 M t m , u r»« b > » f » « ^
" 2
«M t < n w t » » * * • • • » •
3 • r « » • « —» » - * - » *
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a t flyit «• **•
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All VMf
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A
0
Nft «•
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x % h i* * M
X mil
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m imi, m ffOB
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* . c . JtoOown - Diroot m
A ■Oj nir. x don't think •o.
ft Yon don't think it would tot
A m.
ft khjr net?
A » « ■ ! > llho X stotod totfOM^ It would Jwot
to ofenoo until tho Bnmojr Rod non worn trolnod on tkn
cr nV4, to ***• t ho/ oould ootnnll/ wonk to tor tonofit.
m . moody* 9 •
m m m * It go
I. vaaXXMBOh Tour Konnr, it dooon't
dlfftrtMM on thin vliMM, na 4 « 1
it
wtmn X flat
COURT i AH ri«ht. X w ill
to th» lu o i.
'OR* Could wo U f ttw
ri vita
*t thin ffia t, wo don't hero any
(?5 U
2. C. ;4cOown - cross 753
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Coal an« coice. 'one atone they put over m the Barney |
Yftl*G .
v 1 thinic apeajcing also on a wind/
day the dust can fly all over people in the CT Ybrdj la
that correct?
̂ 3n a windy day the duat files everywhere.
THE COURT: I promise you I am not going
to decide this case on whether the wind is
blowing or not, Mr. Belton. You all have
whipped that horse to death.
MR. BELTON: I don't thinic we have any
furt her que a 11on a.
THE COURT: And in spite of even what I I
might thinjc of my Job, there La no way I can stop
the wind.
MR. BELTON: We are not going fc 3 asK you to
do that, Your Honor.
No further questions.
THE COURT: Step down.
(Witness excused.)
jLOLAND K. LANCASTER, called as a witness
oy and on behalf of the United Transportation Union, being
first duly sworn, testified as follows:
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BIK&CT EXAHUUfflON
BY MR. MOCBY:
4 State your name e u t d aedreaa, please.
a Roland E. Lancaster, 6277 Caesapaaice
Boulevard.
Nr. Lancaster, where are you employed?
A Norfolk terminal, Nor; oik and Western
Railroad.
4 And when did you go to work there ?
A I hired out there February, 1937.
4 Have you worked regularly?
A No. I hired out as a brake nan.
4 You went to work as a brakeman in 1937?
A Yes.
4 And alnou that ti * have you worked for the
N & W Rai^oad continuously?
A No, I resigned in 1942.
4 And when din you go back to work for them?
A 1947.
4 Bo you hold any office in either the local
or national union that you are represented by?
A No, I don't.
4 Have you ever held any office in either the
local or the national?
R. S. Lancaster B isect 754
460 ?.
R. E. Lancaster - Direct 755
1 A No, sir.
2 <4 Have you had an opportunity since you
3 start'd to work for th. Norfoik .nd wsstsm Railroad to
1 observe the work that goes on in the Barney Yard hare in
~y Norfolk? 1
(S 1 * Yes, sir.
i And have you worked yourself on the CT
8 Yard regularly since 1947?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 As a braKeaan?
1 1 A■ ' Braiceman and conductor.
12 Brakeman and conductor?
13 A Yes.
14 Now, how long does it take a new braiceman.
IT)
I a normsl individual who comes on the yard, CT Yard, how
os ! long does it take a new brakeman to learn the Job
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18 A That la a hard matter to say. some of
19 them catch on quicker than others.
20 O On an average?
21 A (hi an average I would say maybe two years
22 to be able to get around the yard and learn all the tracks
and that stuff.
w What ara some of tha differences In the
requirements of the work and duties of a bratceann work!ng
4 41 &
R. E. Lancaster - Direct
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- bra iceman on the Barney Yard? on the CT Yard as opposed to a braKeman
A well, they are handling cars coming off,
40ins into t * du— r. and that .tuff, whar. down In th.
transportation yard you ar. building up t l - fralght,
pasaengsr train., cut. of coal for th. hill and at catara.
4 In th. Barnay tard 1. It naaa.aary t h -
to hand, cargo, that would b. a-ltehlng f r - on. traah to
another, anything of thla alnd?
, Wall, thay do run th — out of d if f e r —*
tractcs, y*3> •lr*
a I. there any engine pouar or loeouotlv.
power over In th. Barney tardt
A HO, air. tour h a - craw, put th.» on th.
hill and ^1* them down*
* Are there any Inter loaning awlt-a. or
signal, required oyer In the Barney tard?
A Mo, s i r .
q And do you icnow approximately how many
tree- they have In th. Barney ta rd f
A ^5*
q And how many thay have In th. 0T Tardt
A Roughly in the neighborhood, X would .ay,
.bout 300, counting lndu.trl.1 aiding, and th a t .tuff.
m How, in observing the worlc that goaa on
in the two yards, would you state whether or not thm «•**
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R. S. Lancaster - Direct 757
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ln the « r»n>. or the worK In the Barney Yard, would he
the acre difficult or harder nor*?
A X have a w y '<"»*» « • CT Yard to be the
T ^n't an« - I never did wort up on the hardest wortc. X don t anon
hill up there.
, yhat is/It In the CT T.rd that you have
observed or don. y.arself that would be different or
harder than t V > o r * In the Barney «rd t
HB. BaurON: We object to that. »*•
. yo-Md in the Barney Y* r 4 . that he never woricea in
the WUHE3SJ That la right.
« E COOFCTi I don't thin* he can qualify.
If h. doe. not anoe ehat they do In the B«ney
h. can't say that he doe. .o»thlng that
1» harder than that, Mr. Hoedy.
MR. MOODYx All right.
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what functions are carried out by the «en actually wortcing
ln that yard.
A on the Barney Yard?
4 Yes, ®lr*
A wall, they handle th. eoal a m r M “
R. K. Lancaster - Direct 753
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on the hill, carry it down to the dumpers to dump it to
go into the holds of the snips. l have seen them handle
a whole track of oars and seen them numerous times Just
handle one car at a tlaa.
4 And tell us how they do It. Describe the
manner In which they carry It.
A If they have sufficient slack in the cut
on the hill they have to pinch back on the ear in order to
pull the pin to carry them down.
,4 All right, sir. And by what method do
they know which car to send down?
A Well, they have numbered boards up there
that tellB them what tracks they are going to run them
off of.
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q And normally how many oars would be
moving at any one time In the Barney Yard ?
A Well, they have got three different
dumpers there. They would be moving three different
places, Pier 5 and north and south side of Pier 6.
Q Do these cars move from the same general
area to these piers?
A Oh, I woulo aay yes, sir.
^ What are some of the functions carried on
in the CT Yard that are different from these in the Barney
Yard?4 — ....
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ft. &. Lancaster - Direct 759-fi
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A Well, meicing up of /our time freights,
your passenger trains, cuts of coal for the hill, muting
your cars in station order and such stuff as that.
Q What work is done in the CT yard that
requires physioal activity?
A What did you say, physical activity?
|
4 Tes, sir. Physical movement and physioal j
work on the part of the brakemen. Whet does he have to
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do?
A You mean the oar riders?
4 sir* I am talking about the brakmmen
in the CT lard. What are some of the things that he has
to do that requires him to do nuiual work?
A well, tying the brokes, holding book on the
tracks, and pinching the oars back, or pinching then down
to get them started if they won't roll. omme they get
fche slack, to get the pin.
4 Do you do this in the CT Yard?
A Me, air. I
4 What are some of things — you were
speaking of the Barney yard, apparently, then. My
question is to the CT yard. What are seas of the thingi
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you as a brskeaan do in the or yard that require manual
work?
A w*11» tying of brakes and climbing upon the j
(r(/> *
760*• E* Lancaster - Direct
top Of the oar, and th a t a o rt of atuff.
« Whan you tla bra**. la thia uaually moving
or standing atlllf
A W « u # at times standing still. The
| of the time you are moving.
« t h . majority af th. tim . you are . . . i n . ,
A »ss, air.
Q u u *°re d^isult to tie a brajce
standing still or moving?
j * 1 ’,0U1,J ,l/ It i. mar. danaaramm.
! 4 CO you at turn find ..itch., that ar. hard
to operate ?
A Yea, air.
Q You do?
A Yea.
'4 Do you ***• to «»• ®o»» phyeloal force at
timee in order to turn switches?
YWe, air, you do.
^ What about opening knuckles. is 4t
necessary any time to us. any physical force to open knuckle,
A Occasionally they are hard to open.
Sometimes if the knuckle Din 1*^ pin *• one might drop out on
you and you have to put it back in.
^ What d0 you t® -So in thia case. You
hava to put "hat baeit in. What ar. you spaalcli* ,ft
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R • B. Lancaster - Direct 761
A Put the knuckle back in.
3 What does it weigh?
A Lift the pin and shove it in.
Q What does it weigh, the knuckle, that is?
A Roughly, I would say, about 75, 30 or maybe
90 pounds.
"* Aits you required to htndlt this by younMlf
St tiJSSS?
A no, you are not actually required to do that
If there la a oar inspector around.
k Let m ask you this. is it quite often
dons by brajeeaen in the CT Yard ?
A Oh, yes, sir.
Q It is. You are not required to do it but
you do it as part of your wait there?
A
Q
of that work?
A
Q
A
lbs, sir.
How about derailers, Do you handle any
Yes, sir.
What is that?
Well, I reeicon they weigh anywhere frcei 80
or 90 pounds. it takes two hands to take then off and
two hands to put then on.
3 What do you do. Can you describe it?
A ... Just ny lift inn it off of the track to where
762
1 It won't derail the oar, and one# you are clear and finish
2 j using that track, replace it.
Is It hard work?
it is hard to a certain extent, yes,
how, how long were you braking?
Z was promoted in '49.
You were promoted to what, conductor?
To conductor in '49.
And you hare been conductor since '49?
Yes, sir.
Tell us what the duties of a conductor are?
Well, taking your orders from your
14 supervisors in order to build up and make up your trains
,r> the way they want than, and that stuff.
Q Do you have to know the signals In the yards
17 | you work In?
18 i , _! A Yea, sir.
I
Q Do yeu have to couple hose, or is that
20 strictly for the brskeasn?
A Yes, sir, ws couple hose espeelally on the
12 I Job that I am on right now.I
4 What, from your observation, would be the
' effect, If any, on the safety of the yard to dovetail the
rosters of the Barney Yard with the CT Yard?
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R. E. Lancaster - Direot 763
1 j A on the safety factor?
2 j W On the safety factor to put the non eff
j the Barney ttrd and merge them with the men on the CT yard.
i A Oh, I would say it would Just take time fsr|
- | them to learn the yard and such stuff as that.
« | ^ Well, what effect would it have on the
7 j employment in the two yards?
H ! ^ Well, It would be taking part of my
f) | seniority away from me if they dovetailed the list.
10 * *** what would it do, as far as you know,
n to your Job. Do you know if it would affect you?
12 A i imagine it would.
* In what way?
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A Well, i would probably drop down low an the
list. I am working a daylight Job now. I may have to go
back afternoons or nights or something like that.
Q And since you have been on the railroad you
i
have been working by a seniority systems have you not?I
19 j A Yes, sir.
4 Do you feel that is a valuable system to
!1 work by on the railroad?
A Yes, sir, I certainly do.
:;i | Q Why?
A Well, it gives me my livlihood and helps
r> me to seek better Jobs and that stuff.
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R. E. Lancaster - Dlrtot 764
Q And do*a i t do th* u m th in g fo r th* men
j on * * Barm,y » « . I f you did not have th* s e n io r i ty
, syatem, would you be *ecure in your right* t* a let thati
you worked up to?
A I wouldn't think so.
4 T*u would not?
A V*.
W. MOODY: All right, *lr. That is all.
THE COURT: Cross -examine.
**• ECRTHUWrOHi Norfolk and Western
Railway has no questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Wo avoid that
problem one more time.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Just a f*w questions, Mr. Lancaster.
I oan't hoar you, air.
I said I will just ask you a f*w questions.
THE COURTS Don't believe that. Nr.
Lancaster. He la going t* b* h*ro as i»ng as you
oan answer.
BY m. BILLERi
Q
A
Q
R. E. Lancaster - Redirect 769
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* *•». »lr, It the/ dovetailed the roster.
« That would a m , would it not, that the
In til® OT Yard and the__1X1 th* *•» th® Barney r u m
would both be tr/lnj, IT th... ^ t0 ^
°f “0UM b0th * to tram a lar* nu^er 0f
n#w BIBn ** &°th yards at th*___J 1 thm *** tlas; would It not?
A Tsm> *ir, i think no.
Q **"' Un,t *** different, or la n
dlffarant frou what won__ .JWU rwferred to whan you startod out
and *V*r)rb0<i)r th,t « that /ard .tarted out at the
botto. of the aenlorlty iUt, /ou were a « w U|1,t
that correct?
A Th*t la rl^ht.
Q And you war® being trained as a now man
and you did not at«p into a craw and take aonabody els®'a
job who had b®#n on th. job for *my year.; dM yOU?
A Mo, only whan you was working th® extra
board and th® nan was off.
9 So this would be quite differentj would
It not, fro. the altuatlon that the other attorn./ juat
pointed out to /ou in referring to the Berne/ Yard sen
eo*ng over a buying saceone on a ore, who had been there
/Mrs. It l. entirely different fro. a new
oooing on and etartlng on the bottom of the ladder?
* Tea* sir. z ass the dlf fare nee,------------
<*~il 3.
R* 2. Lancaster - Redirect 770
MR. MOODYi All right, air. Thank you.
n s COURT: stap d m .
(witness excused.)
MR. MOODY: can Mr. Lanaastar ba excused?
TH1 COURT: As far as I an concerned,
Mr. Lancaster.
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M^jQjygK, called as a witness by and on
behalf of the united Transportation union, being first duly
sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MOODY:
Q
A
Q
A
Q
State your naaa and address, please.
M. Y. Lusk.
And your address.
1624 Nora Lane, Northwest, Roanoke, Virginia.
lb*. Lusk, do you presently hold a position wijth
the United Transportation union?
A Yds, sir.
Q What position do you holdT
A Owners l chalrnan of the United
Transportation Union representing train service employes.
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M. Y. Lusk - Direct 771
road brake assn, yard bra icemen, and yardmen of the Norfolk
and Western proper.
Q Now, did you prior to holding fch<■ position
work regularly on the railroad?
A Sir?
Q Did you hold a position working on tha
railroad before holding this position?
A Yes, sir.
si And what was your work?
A X was a road brakemen and road conductor
on the Pocahontas Division, Norfolk and Western Railway.
Q Where did you go to work?
A At Wllliamaton, West Virginia, (torch 19,
19**7j as a road brake man.
4 And did you belong or Join a local lodge
at that time?
A Ybs, air.
Q Which lodge did you Join?
A At that time Lodge 533 of the Brotherhood of
Rellroed Trainmen, now Local 655 of the United Trensportetloii
Union.
4 Where is that located?
A The charter of this local la located et
Bluaflcld, west Virginia.
* And did you later hold office in that
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M. Y. Lusk: - Direct 772
location?
A Yea, air.
Q Tell ua what offices you have held In that
local?
A Shortly after becoming a road hi ate—n.
through the process of a premature resignation of the
secretary of the local grievance committee, I was elected
to the office of secretary of the local grievance irirmlttii.
charged with the responsibility of assisting the division
local chairman In handling the local grievances and
P**od*me on the west end of the Pocahontas Division, through
his authority.
Q What other position did you hold?
A Then later I was appointed — I mean,
elected, rather, secretary of than Lodge 553. I was later
elected vice-local chairman with the duties that X had
held as secretary of the local committee. Then later as
local chairman of that local.
Q When were you elected as general
chairman for the Jf * w hallway proper?
A I assumed office on January 17* 1967* after
an election that had been consummated In November 1966.
Q What area doea thla position cover?
A The regions on the Norfolk and Western
Nallway constituting the Atlantic and Pocahontas Regions,
to H-K.
773M. Y. Lusk - Direct
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which run westward from Norfolk, Virginia to Cincinnati,
and Coluj|bu*' 0,410 * northward to Hagerstown, mryland,
southward to Itorham, North Carolina and Winston-Salem,
North Carolina. Southwest to Norton, Virginia on the
Pocy Division.
3 What are the duties, your duties as
general chairman, your position as general chairman?
* To represent the train service employes I
have cited In their contractual questions and enforce and
interpret the agreement as between the united Transportation
Union Trainmen Cosalttee and the Norfolk and Western
Hallway proper.
Q What about the general committee of
adjustment. Do you have any connection with this, and if
so, what Is it, and what is your position?
A I am chairman of the general committee of
adjustment.
A That la a committee that la comprised of
local chairmen from various seniority districts on the
I
Atlantic and Porehontas Regions, s total of which there are
twenty. And I preside over this committee when In
session, and whan it Is not in session apeak for and act
as the general committee.
Q As a part of your duties in this position,
do^ou handle wage negotiations or contract aHUgefciafUf___
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M. T. Lu s k - Direct m
With rwfcrwnoe to th. Barney Yard in Norfolk
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A Yes, sir.
And Local 550, that la th# CT TIM in
Norfolk?
A
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Yes, air.
And in dealing with th#s# two yards hare
you shown any preference whatsoever, or to your knowledge
b*e the UTU shown any preference between the men on the
Barney yard roster and those on the CT Yard roster?
A None whatsoever, as far as I know.
wi Sxeuae me. Qo ahead. Nobody whatsoever.
Would that include working condition# that you — hare you
endeavored to obtain the sane working conditions for mn
on either yard or on both yards?
A Yes, sir. The sere as any other yard on
the N * W ays tern that I represent.
* Mow* y°u h*ve been on severe1 yards In
your work! have you not?
A Yba, sir.
<4 And to your knowledge is there anything
lumsual about the arrangement that we have here In Norfolk
with reference to having a Barney Yard with a separata
roetar from the classification yard?
A That is not unusual at all, air.
3 _ In dealing with this here, from your
(f H ̂
775
1 •*p#ri*noe •“ * observation, is there a valid foundation
2 or basis far there being two rosters in this ease?
A Well, the reason for the two rosters, of
i course, l« prior to mj ties. But this is not at all
, | unusual. it is a rule that there are different seniority
h j rosters for different yards.
N. Y. Lusk - Direct
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Q Mow, I would like to refer for a few Minutes
to the air hose rule and ask you if you have had any
contact with or took part in negotiations with the air
hose rule for the Barney Ybrdaan in Norfolk?
A Yes, sir.
4 Could you tell us, please, what you recall
as far as your negotiations are concerned.
A On assuming office of general ehsirssn,
thi* was actively handled by Myself with the
assistance of some officers of Local, then 974, now 1889.
And we were able to acquire the air hose arbitrary for the
Barney Yard brakenen and conductors, effective March 1,
19 j 1966.
9 And from your knowledge of the efforts to
obtain the air hose rule for the Barney Yard nan, has every
reasonable effort been aade by the united Transportation
Union and you as general ohairnan to obtain this as soon
as possible for the Barney Yard men?
I
J5 ! *’» BKJOjli Wa object to that aa
M. T. Lusk - DirectM. Y. Lusk - Direct 776
1 THE COURT t Oh, I think hs esn say if he
•)im
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is the nan that did It, if hs knows of any dalay
3 in it or wants to oaks any explanation of It, ha
4
.oan testify to It.
:> I overrule your objection.
t) k (Continuing) Would you repeat the question?
•
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8 BY m. MOODY:
9 Q Basically, oan you state whether or not
10 every reasonable effort has been nade by the united
11 Transportation union, and you as general ohalrsan, to
12 obtain the air hose rule far the Barney Yard sen as soon as
13 you oould?
14 A lbs, sir.
15 Q Did you negotiate and work continuously
10 during the tine that you have been general chairman In an
17 ■attempt to obtain this until It was obtained 7
• A Commensurate, of eourse, with my other duties
19 as general chairmen. naturally Z could not devote my
20 entire time to this.
21
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q I don't mean continuously, but over a
22 period of time?
23 A Yes, sir, persistently.
24 Q Is there anything unusual about there
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taking a period of time to obtain some new contract right
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M. Y. Lusk - Lirect 777
with reference to working conditions?
^ Hot unusual at ail. m f.ct, z
aay that with all candor it, as a general rule takes sow
Sometimes ouch time. Too aaxch, in my opinion.
* Mow, when this was consummated or settled,
I believe that it allowed a 40 cent per day per man for a
Barney yard man for air hose connectionsj did it not?
A That is right, yes, sir. 9or conductors,
brekeaen and the men working on the dumpers.
* thi* ar* **re«wnt settlement pursuant
to the Railway Labor Act at that time?
A Yes, sir. |
<4 Was it agreed, to the best of your knowledge]
by the Barney Yard and by the OTU and by the railroad?
a It was agreed to settlement when I as
general chairman signed my name to the written agreement
effective March i, 1968, which waa written in the month of
February. I forget Just what date. j
w And was that handled pursuant to the
Railway Labor Act?
A Yea, sir.
*4 Was s Section VI notice served in that
instance, or not?
A There had been notices served. But this
letter waa handled on ay part without necessarily the
M. Y. Lutit - Direct 778
Seotion VI notice.
Q Now, going to Mother subject, that is the
effort of the nan on the Barney Yard to obtain low type of
aarger on the rosters, did you talcs part in any conferences
or negotiations in connection with this natter?
A Would you repeat the question?
Q Did you take part in any conferences or
negotiations in connection with efforts to obtain a acrger
of the rosters of 974 and 550 by 974?
A Cto behalf of, and at the request of the
Meters of Local 974 I did hare conferences with the
carrier and advised then of 974'a position, that in the
event there was an integration of any seniority rosters
--I mean topping and bottoming of any seniority rosters_
they would be mads a part of it, among other things.
Q Now, do you recall when this natter first
cane to your attention as general chairman?
A August 24, 1967.
Q And do you recall how it cans to your
attention, and what was being requested by 974 at that
>?
A it was through a on— in lost Ion that was
over the signature of the then secretary-treasurer of
974, Nr. N. E. Peanort.
Q And do you know what that orgasdsatlon was
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M. Y. Lusk - Direct
•+-
requesting with respect to what type of atrger It was
requesting at that time?
779
A if there was any integration, and I believe
topping or bottoming, they would be Included as a part of
that integration and/or topping and bottoming. I stand
I to be corrected on that. It is hard to remember the ezaet
contents, but that was the question.
* Now, what did you do pursuant to that coming
up and coming to your attention. What action, If any, did
you take ?
A As per that request I requested and was
accorded a conference with the carrier officer for the
purpose of handling that, and other questions that had been
put forward by Local 974. And with the assistance of the
secretary-treasurer, «•. M. E. Feanort of 974 and the Local
Chairman Robert Rock.
Did these efforts continue in connection
with this over a period of time?
A Yes, air.
Q And can you tell me whet the position of
974 was et these conferences that were held to discuss thisi
matter?
A It was that they felt they were entitled
to the five or six items that they had listed, and It was
their position that they should get it corrected.
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M. Y. Luskc - Direct
k Dio they specify whether they wanted topping
or bottoming, or whether they wanted dovetailing in dealiiy
with this problem at that time?
A The word dovetailing aa aueh, I do not
recollect being mentioned.
k Mow, did you also have occasion to learn of
th. poaltlon Of Lo«.i 550 In U o 01 1 M .lth n t m n — to
B,r8*r that wae proposed by 974?
A At a later date I was advised inf craftily
that personally Local 550 had tabled, or something, seas
proposal similar to that in the past.
Q Mow, as the general chairman, is it your
duty to attempt to get the agreement of these locals which
are all under your Jurisdiction, to get their -*yrn
they had a disagreement, to get their agreement as to
whatever action may be taicsa?
^ sir. xt is the job of the general
chairman as representative of both groups to try to correct
•«y disagreement between any two groups that he represents,
if possible.
Q And did you mans diligent efforts to get
the two organisations to war* this problem out and arrive
•t some agreement on it?
A Tea, sir. And with the assistance of an
International of riser.
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M. Y. Lu i k - Direct 781
Q Who was that?
A ?rcd Hardin.
Q And he is here in the courtroom, I
believe?
A Tea, air.
Q What did /ou do?
A Who had been assigned by the president.
3 Did you contact the president of the
United Transportation Union and request this assignment, or
sons one assist you in this regard?
A lbs, sir. Thst is the normal course when
you have a dispute that seems to not be able to resolve,
then you ask for assistance from the president, and he
assigns assistance, an International officer.
<4 Didn't Fred Hardin Join with you in these
efforts to negotiate this natter to a satisfactory
conclusion?
A Tea, sir.
Q And did you continue with these efforts
until such tine as sons legal action was taken?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, during the testimony here you have
heard testimony regarding a letter which was written to
you by Nr. Nanette, I believe dated November 1, 1968.
Do you recall that tastlmony?
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A The letter?
Q Or was it another date. it is a letter
which has been --
A It was dated October 31, 1968 and
received by m on November 1, 1968.
<i I believe that was a letter which referred
to a dovetailing of the rosters) is that eorreet?
A Y«a, air, from the carrier suggesting that.
Q Suggesting that ?
A Yes.
Q Now, does that letter have any legal effeet
when it comes into your hands?
A No, sir. it was to as only a suggestion
by the carrier. it was not forwarded to mt under the
provisions of the existing laws regarding such a matter as
change of seniority.
Q And would the existing laws, would that be
the Railway Labor Act and 3eotion VI of ttat aot. Would
that be the appropriate notice to serve on you in order to
initiate some legal proceedings through the Railway Labor
Act?
A Yes, sir.
And that was not served upon you?
I a f l y the carrier, no, air.
* What did you do after you received the
6 V* a
M. Y. Lusic - Direct
*4
N Y. Lusk ** 733
letter from the Norfolk and Western Railroad?
A This letter of suggestion which the carrier
was forwarding to the international president* I*. Charles|
Dona, November 5, 1968.
* And what happened after that?
A Then the next action taken, of course, the
officer had already been assigned by the international and
that is why it was referred to the international. We ted a
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9 conference with the parties involved, November 15, 1968,
10 ! at Norfolk, Virginia.1
11 <4 Now, you said the parties Involved. who
1 2 did you have a conference with?
1 3 A with three officers of Looal 974, and later
14 three officers of Local 550.
15 Q You ast separately?
1(1 A Yes, sir.
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was this a further negotiation and effort to
18 bring about a settlement between the parties?
1!) A Ybs, sir.
2 0 4 Do you recall what was offered, if
21 anything, either by the DTU or by either organisation with
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reference to settling it at that tUm ?
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1 A At that tins we offered to the officers on
2 4 j the part of the membership of 974 a proposed agreement
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1 that had been agreed to as between the carrier and the
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N. Y. Lusk - Direct 73%
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United Transportation Union for the topping and bottoming
of the individual seniority rosters.
Q What was the position of 97%, if you know,
relative to that proposed agreement?
A Of the three officers concerned you are
saying ?
Q Yes, sir.
A The three officers said at ths termination
of the conference that they, as individuals, of course,
could not decide for the membership of 97% as to whether
this would be acceptable or not, and that they would
certainly have to handle thia with their membership for
further advice. Bit one of the parties, *». *. b . Johnson
did suggest that the topping and bottoalng possibly should
be accepted.
Q But it waa not?
A it was not, no, air.
Q Bid anything develop later as far as -- you
said at that time they could not accept it, that they would
have to go back and speak to their membership. Bid you
hear anymore from thia as far as whether or not they would
accept it?
A Several days latar there was a telephone
conversation between my vice-general chairman who was in
my office while I waa out of town. He reoeit^d * phone
̂$ 6 3.
N. T. Lusk - Direct 785
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c a l l from the then lo ca l chairman Robert Rock saying th a t
th e re were two ad d itio n a l th ings th a t they thought i f they
were placed in the agreement th a t had been w ritten th a t i t
could possib ly be acceptable to th e membership o f 97*.
Q Do you know what they were?
A S p e c if ic a lly they were fo r the f i l l i i ^ i o f
vacancies, the one item was, and the o ther was being a
d if fe re n t sec tio n of the agreement. They did in te r fe re
w ith the normal procedure of s e n io r i ty In f i l l i p e x is tin g
vacancies on a term inal yard, or whatever. And they
in jec ted themselves in to th a t normal procedure and did not
follow the topping and bottoming procedures which gives the
man, p r io r man the vacancy f i r s t . And by token of th a t ,
of course, i t n a tu ra lly could a f f e c t s e n io r i ty standing
of the men in e i th e r yard.
Q That ad d itio n a l proposal would have a ffec ted
th e s e n io r i ty e x is tin g a t th a t t in s in both yards?
A Tea, a i r , sq u a lly so.
Q Squally so?
A Tea, s i r .
Q Did any fu r th e r developments take p lace to
reso lve th a t p a r tic u la r problem?
A No, a i r . I d o n 't be lieve th e re was
anything fu r th e r than th a t . We J u it could not agree aa
th a t was, and in frin g e upon s e n io r i ty of both p a r tie s and
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N. Y. Lusk - Direct 786
could be used aa such.
^ All right. Now, to the best of jour
knowledge has Local 974 appealed the lopasse that was
reached. Have they appealed It to the Board of Appeals
through the norael procedures of the constitution of
the Brotherhood of Railroad Trainee?
A No, sir.
3 Well, 1 would ask jou what provisions are
there in jour constitution for appeal of such natters when
jou reach an lnpasse such as this?
A Anj decision affecting anj sssber of the
aesbershlp that 1 represent bj njself as general chalmsn
or bj an international officer can be appealed to a board
known as a Board of Appeals, through the orderly process
of the constitution that is now In effect for the united
Transportation Union.
4 Was that provision In effect in jour
constitution during the tljse that this setter reached as
iapasse and negotiations did not continue?
A Yes, sir.
a Now, tell ns, if jou will, if another
occasion csss about in which the sen on ths CT Yard sought
to obtain sons seniority positions onthe Barney Yard aa
retarder operators?
A There was a board decision of the 1st
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M. Y. Lusk - Direct 787
Division of the national Railway Adjustment Board. I do
not rnmamber Just the data of the board decision, feast the
question in this board decision was that the Barney lard
was to be extended to or expanded rather, to inelisle ear
retarder operator positions, which are still in existence.
And it was the position of than Local 550 that in as much
as they had already established ear retarder operator's
seniority, that they were entitled to that work afeich was
located within the confines of the Barney Yard. This was
ruled against by the general chairman, with the assistance
of general chairman K. H . Jones, with the assistance of
the then assistant to the president, V. v. Sat termite,
And this decision was appealed by Local 550, that they
should be able to nan these positions in the Barney Y M ,
and the appeal was denied unanimously by the then Board of
Appeals of the Brotherhood of Railroad Trainman.
3 What was the basis of the denial of the
right of the man on the CT Yard to go over tame, or
exercise their seniority as retarder operators on the
Barney Yard. what was the basis of that decision that they
could not do that?
A The basis of the denial of the award, as Z
have read It, is to have allowed the employes of the
CT Yard Local 550 to come Into the Barney Yard Local 97*,
would be an Infrlansnan* upon their seniority rights. As!
M. Y. Lusk. - DirectM. Y. Lusk - Direot jqq
1 under the rules of the then Brotherhood of Railroad
w 2 Trainmen that, of course, was not allowable.
3 Q Mow it bring* up the question of the
4 importance or lack of Importance of lack of seniority rights
5 on the railroad. What importance do they hold in the
h railroad ea^loyes deployment with the railroadf
• A railroad industry as a whale, and, of
H course, to ay experience, the Worfolk and Western, to them
9 seniority is probably, I would say, certainly without
10 reservation, the most valuable property that you teve in
11 your position as a railroad employe. And I eight
12 clarify that by saying that very few Industries that Z me
— 13 aware of other than the railroad Industry does an employa
14 who hires last week get the aaae rate of pay for thi aa—
13 position worked aa the employe who wee hired 20 yeare ago.
10 The only difference between the two is that the mn that
17 hired 2 0 years ago oan by a token of his seniority seek
• and secure a better Job and have more security. Seniority,
19 in other words, la all important on the railroad.
20 Q Mow, was there a basis for two separate
21 seniority districts in Morfolk in the Norfolk yard. what
22 1 la the basis for having two seniority districts there?
23 j A They were classed, I imagine, as two separate
24 yards. This was dons assy yeare ago.
23 <4 And is it unusual when you have two
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M. T. Lusk - Direct 799
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separate yards which do two separate types of work to have
two seniority districts?
A Is It unusual?
Q Is it unusual?
A No, sir.
4 Do you know other places where they have
similar situations, other similar type operations?
A Where there are seniority rosters within a
yard?
Q Yes, sir.
A Not on the N I V in particular, but I do
know of it, yes, sir.
Q Now, one of the allegations in the suit in
this ease is that the cost of there being two locals in
Norfolk, two local lodges, that is, that this has brought
about some unfair preferences over one as to the other.
Would you tell um whether or not the fact that they have
two local lodges has anything idmtsoever to do with the
working conditions or the contract natters ?
A None that I know of. You have both waps
on that situation. You have coastlass several local
chairmen within a lodge but representing different seniority
districts, but some representing the saaa.
W Whet is the basis for the makeup of the
membership, let's lay, of 330. Docs it have anything te
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M. Y. Lusk - Direst 790
do with race, color or creed?
A Not that I know of. There are, of course,
black nan and white men in both locals.
Q Is there any rejection on the basis of rase,
color or creed, to your knowledge, In either local?
A Not that I know of, but the union Itself
does not control who the carrier hires or doesn't hire.
4 I understand that. Am I correct that you
oust belong to Local 550 if you work In the Ct Yard?
A Yes, sir.
Q But the fact that you are In Local 550,
this la the eomrerse of the situation, as I understand It,
the fact that you belong to Local 550, or to another lodge,
doesn't naan that you must work In a certain place. Z
■can. It la the other way around, where your work Is the
deciding factor of what lodge you are In?
A That la correct.
Q Does the united Transportation Union, to
your knowledge, hare any policy prohibiting the nsrglag
of these locals If they want to serge?
A Quite the contrary. It la the policy
of the president of the United Transportation Union to put
any and all locals together that can be put together to
avoid any unntesssary expenses and ellnlnatlon of officers,
ms far as that la eoneerned.___
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M. Y. Lusk - Cross
there were snj pending?
A Not without oh*okin* ay fllos and records.
C*rt*inlj th*r* ar* atnj olalas outstanding In ay records,
and aany olalas ar* settled as a result of agreeasnts.
But I would hav* to check th* record.
Q Do you know whether you discussed th*j
pending clalas at the tlae you ar* talking about the
application of the air hose rule?
* Many things, sir, are dlsousaed In
negotiations.
<4 1 aa not talking about the aaay things,
Nr. Lusk. I aa talking about the clalas.
THX COURTi If you know, say yes. And
If you don't, say so.
THK wefmkssi i just don't know, sir, atI
i this tins.
BY m. HlLTONs
Q You testified, Mr. Lusk -- let a* show
you th* October 31. 1966 letter. I think you saw It
yesterday} Is that correot?
NR. WORTH DOT ON t What docuaent are you
referring to now?
THE COURT* October 31, 1968 letter, or
•67 letter, '68 letter.______________________
M. Y. Lusk - Cross 80S
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TEI witness: lbs, sir, I saw this
lsfctsr.
BY NR. BELTON:
Q I think you tsstlfisd jrtsUrdtf after
you received this you had eonvsrsstlons with soae of ths
offioisls of 9741 Is that correct?
A After ws received this letter?
Yes.
Yes, sir.
Did you tsil them that you had this lettsr?
I think the latter, while not officially
P**«*a»»ted, was known.
Q Did you tell them that you had received
the letter?
A I don't reaeaber.
Q Now, who did you talk to after you
received this letter of 974?
A With whoa did I talk after I received this
letter?
Q Officials of 974?
A Yes. Mr. Rock, Mr. Johnson, Nr. Baynes,
I Ixliw. I assn, there could have been others but
these were at the aotual aeetinf.
4 If you want to reflect a aoasnt. Nr. Lusk,
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M. ¥. Lusk - Cross 803
you may. Ait do you recall telling any of the officials
or anybody that you spoke to from 97k that you had this
letter?
A 1 don't reataber whether I specifically
told thea or not, no, sir.
Q I think you did testify yesterday that
you had soas conversation with both Mr. Rock and Mr.
Johnson about topping and bottoming) is that correct?
A Topping and bottoming procedure.
4 Of the Barney Yard?
A Yes, sir.
4 Mow, could you tell as onee again, Mr. Lusk,
what Mr. Rock said to you with respect to the aceeptability
of topping and bottoming?
A Nr. Rock?
4 Yes.
A Veil, if I remember correctly at one time
this was an acceptable thing. The topping and bottoming
procedure, if it could have been done. But then it
became objectionable for soae reason beyond my knowledge.
4 I think you gave two stipulations or two
things that had to be added in your direct testimony, if
it were to be acceptable to Mr. Rock. I am trying to
clarify thoae two thinga.
A I f it were aceeptable?
(c^Sk
N. Y. Lumic - Cross 8<*
Right.
At on# tins It was, yes, sir.
With several additions to ths proposalT
Th#r# w#r# two, I thing.
I didn't quit# eatoh it yesterday whan you
war# testifying, and I would line to olarify it for the
r#oord, and for ay own inforaatlon. What war# those two
things that you indicated Nr. Roeg said ought to ha addedi
to that proposal?
A It was that, if ay eeaory serves ae
correctly, and 1 don't have the written two additions to
the topping and bottoaing procedure that was reooaaended.
They were filling of vacancies frost the eaergeney list,
so-callec eaergeney list, sa if they had been used froa
the regular list ahead of the eswrgenoy Hat froa one yard
to another. And I assuae they aeant this vice-versa.
I
Of course, that is sn interruption of ths schedule
agreeaent in the proeess for filling existing vacancies
through seniority and through the agreeaent.
<4
point alone?
A
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4
Old you understand what he aeant on that
Did 1 understand what he aeant?
Yaa, in terns of that addition.
By those two proposals?
Yes.
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N. T. Lusk - Cross 805
-.. - - - ■ -f
A Now, tho communication was not between
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myself personally and Nr. Rook on these two proposals as
suoh. It was botwoon ay vice-general chairman over a
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phono, and It was oopiad down and handed to me.
Q So you didn't you wore not at that' ■ 1 j
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nesting?
A This was a telephone conversation whore■
8 this was injested, sir.
9 Q Lot's clarify for the record then, Nr. Lusk,
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10 after the October 31, 1968 letter, what eonferenees, if
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any, did you participate in personally concerning the
merger in any fora of the 0? lard roster and the Barney'
13
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Yard roster?
14 A In any form?
1ft 4 Tea.
Hi A Oh, there were some eonferenees between •
17 the, you know, the carrier as to the topping and bottoming
•
proposal and things like that, but the nest conference
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with the officers of 97* was November 13, 1968.
q Is that the last one you recall?
A Sir?
q Is that the last conference you recall?
THE COURT» were there any. after that?
24 A (Continuing) The telephone conversation
2ft
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was after that regarding the two additional items. I
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N. Y. Lusic - Cross 806
don't re neither Just -- there was no official confarane*
as such past that point that I can rooolisot just offhand.
BY m . KLTONl
4 What, if anything, Mr. Lusic, prevented yew
fros filing a Scotion VI notion with rospoot to ths ■argsr
of ths rosters?
A Nothing.
Q You could have dons ItT
A With rospoot to following a Sootion VT
notion for ths sorgsr of seniority rostsrsf
Q Too.
A Certainly that by ths constitution would
bo an interruption of seniority of other people other
those m<iusstlng sane, but I had no request fron anyone
to serve a Section VI notion which I, of course, nust have
by the constitution.
Q Is it your testimony thst you can't do
anything. You could not have dons anything with respect
to Berger of ths OT roster and ths Barney Yard roster
without either 97* or initiating the Section vx type
noticeT
A Without scsm kind of initiation prooosa,
yea, air.
q Didn't you do the air hose rule when the
M. 7. Luak - Cross 826
happened immediately thereafter.
! BY MR. BELTON*
Q Do you know, Nr. Luak, what bar or not thsi
Virginians that wa talk about now, ths people that seat
ovar, ara members of 550?
A Yas, air, as ara othar railroads, by ths
way.
3 Several more quaat Iona, Nr. Lusk.
A 1 thought you wars going to giro ms two
aora.
3 Once again, Z will just hand you this. Did
you participate in ths negotiations —
MR. VGRIHiaarONt Which paper was that?
MR. BELTONi October 31, 1968 latter.
BY MR. BELTON*
£ Did you participate in the latter leading
to the negotiations of 1970 collective bargaining agrees*nt
with N & w?
A The 1970?
4 Right.
A You naan January 1, 1970 schedule
agreement?
Q This agreement.
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N. Y. Lusic - Cross
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Did you participate in that?
Yss, air.
Q Could you Just sort of, if you rsi
tall the Court who for 1 U V participated in the
negotiations leading to this contract.
887
A Of course there were many conferences and
this was a tine consuming Job of rewriting the agreement
and bringing it up to data. But the primary personnel
officer that dealt with me on rewriting this agreement which
replaoes the one that had been effective January 1, 1954,
was Nr. £. M. Martin.
Q Do you recall whether during the course of
the negotiations, Mr. Lusic, that any of the eosq>ftny
officials stated to you that this was the position of the
eoapany with respect to the merger of the Barney Yard end
CT Yard?
A During the negotiations for this -- I mean,
the rewriting of this agreement?
* Yes, sir.
A Mo, sir, this was not referred to.
MR. BBLTONi No further questions.
THE COURTi Anything further.
MR. WORTH DOT ON: We have no questions.
Your Honor.
10O7K.
N. Y. Lusk - Redirect 833
THE COURT i All right. Go ahead.
Is thsrs anything further.
MR. WORTHINGTONi Your Honor, I waived to
cross exaalnation but I would lias permission to
changs my mind for one topic.
THE COURTi All right.
MR. WCRTHURirONt This was brought out on
cross examination by the plaintiffs, and it was a
now subject.
RE CROSS EXAMINATION
13 BY m. WORTH INST ON i
] 1 J Q Nr. Lusk, there was some question asked
you about conferences over this 1970 addition of the
| Norfolk and Western Railway Cô >any rates of pay and
regulations, whloh is marked as Plaintiffs' Rxhiblts Nos.
18 j 6 and 7.
19 | A Yea, sir.
20 Gl You see ltj do you not?
21 i A Yes, sir.
22 I x* When did the conferenoes take place about
23 i this booklet here?
24
A Over a long period of time up until the data,
25 the effective date. Somewhat prior to that, anffiai^ae__
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M. y. Luik - R «orou 334
1 t la * to have I t p rin ted . The n eg o tia tio n s began sh o r tly
2 aft«p 1 assuaed of f le a . Thla was ona of ay d e s ire s .
:i ^ Now, th la th in g , 1 th in k , la aarirafl
1 e f fe c tiv e January l , 1970 and aaya superseding agreesMnt
5 dated January l a t , 1954. War* th e re any ahangaa between
»> the 1954 e d itio n and the 1970 e d itio n aa a f fe e ta the t hinge
•
7 th a t are involved In th is ease?
s A There were many changes w ith in the
1
si agreement aa i t now stands and brought up to d a te , with
10 p a r t ic u la r re ference to the Barney yard.
1 i * What were those changes?
12 A There was a ooaplete two page aeaorandua
— \'A th a t applied s t r i c t l y to the Barney yard th a t had been
u removed p r io r to ay assuming o f f ic e , and th a t , of course,
15 was om itted.
1ft 4 Well, in n eg o tia tio n s th a t you p a rtic ip a te d
17 in , what changes were made as to Barney yard eavloyes?
•
18 THE COURTS Well, the a i r hose.
10 A The a i r hose ru le , the ae rg er agreement
20 :
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e ffeo tlv e October 1, 1969.
1
22 BT MR. WORTHIHdTON:
2.1 J 4 What do you aaan the aerger agreement
2! j e f fe c tiv e 1969?
|25 | A Providing fo r the q u a lif lo s tIo n a and/or
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M. T. Lusk - Jteeross
r e s p o n s ib i l i t ie s of the employes whoa I rep resen t end the
c a r r ie r h i re s .
>4 Toes th is a f fe c t the Barney Yard, sons
merger a f fe c tin g the Barney Yard?
A Yes, s i r . I t a f fe c ts a l l employes of the
N l v proper.
4 Well, when did the nego tia tions about th a t
agreement take plaoe. I th in k you said i t took e f fe c t in
1969?
A The n eg o tia tio n s , s i r , were conducted ever
a period of some eleven months. I th in k , i f ay memory
serves as c o r re c tly , there were 65 dsys n eg o tia tio n s w ith
the In te rn a tio n a l o f f ic e rs over th i s period on th is m atter.
4 When did th a t take p lace , Nr. Lsskf
A 1968 and 1969.
4 '63 and '69?
A Yes.
4 Did th a t have anything to do w ith the
se n io r i ty d i s t r i c t s between the Barney Yard and the CT Yard?
A No, s i r .
4 And i s i t not a fa c t then th a t most o f the
changes in th is 1970 e d itio n were negotiated back before
1969* and th a t th is was merely a p re sen ta tio n of a lo t of
th ings th a t had a lready been nego tia ted?
A Yes, s i r .
835
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N. Y. Lubic - Recroea 836
Q So th a t the ac tu a l nego tla tlona about the
p r in tin g of th la 1970 things noet of tha oonfaranoaa had
taxen p laca bafora 19691 ia th a t r ig h t?
A Yta, a i r . Moat of tha wont involved waa
proofing and of what would go in and what would not go in ,
and th inga lltca th a t .
Q R ight. So th i s 1970 th ing waa a e re ly Juat
gathering tha ohangaa already aade and re p r in tin g than?
A Yea, a i r , alnea 195*.
4 S o in 1969 any eonfareneea th a t you had
about th la P la ln t l f f a ' E xhibit Hoe. 6 and 7 were n ea tly
about the p r in tin g of i t ?
A Yea, a i r . And the oorreetneea of the aana.
Q Mow, there waa no oooaalon then fa r you
during th a t period of t in e to ra la e anything about tha
aarger of tha s e n io r ity d i s t r i c t a between tha Barney Yhrd
and the CT Yhrd?
A Mo, a i r .
Q And you did not ra la e i t ?
A Mo, s i r .
Q And th e re waa no oeeaalon fo r the ra ilro a d
to ooanent on i t a t th a t t in e ; waa there?
A No, a i r . There ia no p a r t ic u la r re ference
to the Barney Yard in th a t agreeaen t, w ith the exception
of the cover.
7£>4/k .
M. Y. Lusk - Rtoroti 637
Q Right. so th a t neg o tia tio n s th a t vara
had about the aerger of the Barney Yard s e n io r i ty d i s t r i c t ,
and the CT Yard s e n io r i ty d i s t r i c t were had a t the l a s t ,
In the la te p a rt of 1968 a f te r you had these ta lk s about
topping and bottoming you got Mr. Rock's ob jec tio n s, and
th a t was about the l a s t n eg o tia tio n s) la th a t not c o rre c t,
as f a r as the ra ilro a d la concerned?
A in *68, yea, a i r .
Q And th ia c u lt waa brought in 1969, I th in k
in June, and th ere has been no conference between you and
the ra ilro a d ainee the a u it waa brought on th ia su b jec t)
has there ?!
A With the ra ilro a d since the a u i t waa
brought?
Q Since the s u i t was brought?I
A Mo, a i r .
MR. WORTHIMafOil 1 That la a l l .
THX COORTt All r ig h t . Step down.
MR. BBLTOHs One second.
BY NR. BE IT ON 1
Q What, i f anything, to your knowledge
prevented or prevents the union froai ra is in g the quest 1 an
of merger of the Barney Yard and CT Yard a t any tim e.
la there anything in the document to prevent you from doing
7 0
N. Y. Lusk - Recross 838
th a t , to ra is e i t with the company?
A To aerge the s e n io r i ty d i s t r i c t s ?
Q To p e t i t io n the company to d iscuss the
aerger?
A Mo, s i r , there i s no t, nor a lso is these
anything in the book th a t provides fo r i t .
Q Under the Section VI p rov isions we taliosd
about, can you now p e t i t io n the company o r put then on
no tice you wish to d iscuss i t ?
A The merging of s e n io r i ty d i s t r i c t s ?
^ Yes. Wouldn't th a t be an appropria te
s ta r t in g p o in t, a t le a s t a Section VI claim?
THE COURTi Me has said th a t he oou ldn 't
do th a t unless some union requested i t . As I
understand i t , i t h a s n 't been requested .
MR, BELT ONj That is not m y question . Your
Honor.
THE COURT x You assn can he i n i t i a t e I t
w ithout th is request?
MR. BELTOMi I want to know i f th e re is
anything th a t prevented him from doing i t .
THE COURTj That i s the saas question . Is
th e re any reason you c a n 't i n i t i a t e on your own
hook a aerger of these th in g s , w ithout e i th e r unlaa
requesting i t ?
) iX ' X
M. T. Lusk - R«cross ®39 | f
THS wrriGSSj C s r ts ln l j there Is .
Wf BK.YOMt
^ You can do i t , you ars say ingr
A What do *<** ■••«. C erta in ly , there a rs
reasons why I cannot put s e n io r i ty ro s te r s to g e th e r. But
# 7 , th *7 *” not <,ont*1"*3 * lth ln th a t boo* ln d W ld M llr . *h»7
« i are contained w ith in the c o n s titu tio n of the United
» j T ransporta tion Union.
1() | • BELTON* No fu r th e r Questions.
11 j THE COURT: Step down.
12 (Witness excused .)
n i
H j
iI
L, B, TERRY, sa ile d as a w itness by and
1 u I
on behalf of th e United T ransporta tion Union, being f i r s t
17 du ly sworn, t e s t i f ie d as follows*
DIRECT EXAMINATION
| BY MR. MOODY*
* S ta te your naas and address, p lease .
A l . B. T erry . 5637 cape Henry Avenue,
24 1 Norfolk, V irg in ia .1
J5 :
j - __? Where are you employed, Mr. Terry?
1 ?01
L. B. Terry - Cross 845
BY MR. BALLERs
Q Do you know your exact data of «*>ioya»nt
with Norfolk and Vsstorn Railroad aa a brakenan?
THE COURT j I bat you ho can toll you
within twenty alnutea.
A 8-31-61.
BY m, BALLBRt
Q
A
conductor?
A
August 31, 1961?
Yes, air.
And what was the date of
1-8-64.
four promotion to
Q la that about an average length of tlm» for
promotion from breicesan to conductor in the yard?
A it waa two years and five months. I don't
know if that is average or not.
MR. BALLKR: Mo further questions.
THE COURTt All right. Call your next
witness.
(Witness excused.)
HOUSTON w, JCTTT3, called aa a witness by and
on behalf of the United Transportation union., being first
H. W. Kltti - Dlrtot
i | duly sworn, testified as follows:
846
3 DIRECT EXAMINATION
<>
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BY HR. MOODY*
Q Stats your naae and addrsas, plaaas.
A Houston a. Kitts, 1̂ *64 strand Stmt,
Norfolk, Virginia.
* Where are you employed, Mr. Kitts?
Norfolk and Wsatarn Railway Co^any.
And what type work do you do?
I an a Oratcsnan, conductor.
Whan did you go to work for the Norfolk and
A
4
A
*
Western?
A
Q
I want to work hare January 1961.
Did you work •one other place prior to that?
***» •!**• I worked out of Roanoke on the
■sin line
*4
A
Whan did you go to work at Roanoke?
Operating department, 1955.
Q And when you came to Norfolk yard, did you
becoae a asaber of a local of United Transportation Union?
A At that time it was BUT, yes. sir, saae
union.
<4 _ Which local was that?
C 1 &
H. W. Kitts - Direct 8*7
And which yard did you go to work on here?
Well, wa refer to It as the CT Yard, the
big yard.
Now, have you worked regularly In that yard
A With the exception of about 20 days In
1961, and February It fell off when I was furloughed for
about 20 days.
i
Q Have you had occasion also to observe the
Barney Yard here in Norfolk to see the type work that is
carried on in the Barney Yard?
A Yes, sir.
.
3 And how did you see that. Do you have
occasion to go to the Barney Yard?
A wulte often, yes, sir.
4 Is that any different, and if so, what are
sons of the differences between the work of the sen working
on the Barney Yard and the work of the brake own on the
Barney Yard and the brakeaen on the CT Yard?
a Well, there la no point in - I was always
a little envious ayaelf.
3 Why were you envious?
V: A It aeeaed to as a whole lot easier and they
were not forever tying brakes on heavy cuts of coal going
A
A
main yard, the
3
since 1961?
I
H. W. Kitts - Direct 848
i
up there.
̂ Easier an the Bsrnsjr Yardf
i A Yes, s i r .
j
i | * And you said thsy were not forever tying
’ j brakes on thoa. car.. I. than. an, .. u u dlfflault t0
(i ! tU br**mB oa railroad cars in the CT Yard?
j
* Wall, whan you put 20 to 30 oar auta of seal
on the flarnejr Yarn, and It la downsrade on the aaat and
where the, drop the oar. off the hill and, you know, you
trjr to tie a brak. on two or thro. car. to hold th. whol.
cut. SO you keep alack bunch Tor thaa to pull tn . pin.,
and you Juat haw. £ 0 ~^lt 1. atr.nuoua. Hither that or
you have to go car /tying token broke, on .aoh and .wary one
of them.
* I» it unusual in the CT Yard to hare to
operate these brakes while these esrs are ooving?
A Oh, yes. We have to tie brakes. we never
go on the hill without a brake on the rear for fear you
break in two or cone uncoupled or something, you are going
to have a run away and tear the pier up. But we always
have a brake on the rear and if we are shoving in soa» of
these yards that has a grade, a downgrade, we are going to
leave them standing on the tracks, we have to tie the* down
all the time.
4 State whether or not you work regularly
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H. W. Kitts - Direct 849
on moving trains in the CT yard.
|
A Would you repeat the question?
<»t Would you state whether or not you are
; required to work regularly during your tenure of duty on
the CT Yard on aovlng trains?
A All the tiae. That is exactly what the
J o b is. And trains movement on adjacent tracks in either
or both sections continuously. And you have all crossovers
and everything has to be lined up properly before you make
your movement. You have to know the distance of wtoare yea
are going, how much clearance you have In a track, and how
I
j sany cars you put in a track.
j
Q How long would it take a aan te learn the
I
work of a brakeaan on the CT Yard to be eble to carry cut
the Job without any assistance or help?
A Well, when I went to work on the railroad
In the operating dapartmant I wee on the main line, and I
thought I was a right fair brakeaan on the aein line. But
coming to Norfolk and working in this yard down here it took
me a couple of years to lsarn ay way around. I would aey
to be a good brakeaan you would have to work a couple or
three years to really gat where you eould pey, you know, pey
your own way. iI
w How, In your work on the yard here In
Norfolk, in your observation of the Barney Yard, would you
~)/2 ̂
H. V. Kitts - Dlrsot
1 \ **ate whether or not the work on the Barney Yard is any
2 nors difficult or menial or dirtier than tha work on the
CT Yard?|
1 | A Certainly not as hard. it is not as
complicated. I aon't see how it could he any dirtier, for
(, the simple reason we have to climb around the top of the
I cars all the time in the coal dirt and the wind blowing
« | *n<s Puttin« your eyes out. They eve11 provide us with
i) | safety glasses when the wind is blowing. of course, they
10 | hinder your vision quite a bit. They do mine.
11 i 4 You we*r goggles or safety glasses In the
12 ! CT Yard?
13 ! A You do when the wind la blowli*, yes, sir.
14 j Ar« worn In the Barney Yard, to your
)> ! knowledge?
,h A 1 have never seen anyone with them on.
17 j 4 Vow, in your capacity as a member of! ;
' Local 550, have you held any offices in thst looal, and If
19 ; so, which offices have you held?
A I was president of Locsi 550. I was
21 elected November 1966 and assumed office January 1, 1967,
22 and held that office through Deoember 31, 1969. Three
23 j years.
4 Now, during thst period of time, November
1966 until December 1969, do you know*as president of
7 / 3 ?-
850
24
H. W. Kitts - Direct 851
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|)r.
Locsi 550, of any request by Local 974 for the mrg«r of
theaa two locals, not speaking of tha aaniority roaters.
I aa speaking of the two fraternal organisations. Hava
you had any request froa 974 to aarge?
4 No, sir.
Q You have not?
A Not to ay knowledge. No one approached m
about it.
Q Would you tell as, if you know, what would
take place as far as officers of the locals are concerned
if these two fraternal loeala should aarge with each other?
A Well, it goes without saying we only hare
one sacratary-treasurer, one president, and one delegate,
and one legislative representative, and one looal ehairaan
for our teralnal, and so on. It would just be a aatter
of someone losing officers.
Q And what is the comparison in the ambers
of the two locals. Do you know the aeaberahip,
eoaparatlve aeaberahip?
A I don't know exactly how aany la in the
®*rn#y Yard, but I would say we have twice as aany, or
awybe a few no re.
And have you known of any provision in a
situation of this kind where they did aarge whereby it
would be feasible or practical to have a ®ortaln portion
7/Vac
H. W. Kitts - Direct 852
!)
[
10 j
11
!
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i;i j
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Hi
of tl» --Oor^lp ladi.Muhll, r*pr.Mnt«l to th. ioAf.
I wat M u « , i» lh.r. ..tM* wo, v*«
* **“ » f - P « . w o n t , l o c . l c h . i r « «
“ * *° forth or u th* « *■/ m oouid , i . ot on. ^
to rMWrad on. group of p.opl. to th. . u . lod„ .no
“ ° " “ r Pr*‘ “ *Dt to «PM»ont anoth«r group of p .opl. la
i i m iodgs?
A Mot president. I don't thlnic th* grand
lodg# would snow it . now, you sould haws -
**• BELT ON i Objection. I aov* to Strlics.
That wasn't his question.
THE COURT j Do you know of any way you
sould haws two sets of officers. if you do, say
yaa. if you don't, say I don't know, if you don't
know.
TUB WITNESSi Well, sir, we do have two
sets of officers for soae officers representing
different grogs of aen, yes, sir.
1 9
20
21
2.'! |
BY MR. MOODY*
<4 Are they aeabers of two different crafts,
usually in the saae local, or are they where you have
road eon, for you have the yardaen in the seat
location. is this the situation where you might have
officers to represent each of thea?
>
4
M* M. Kitts - Oiftot 8*3
m. £K IS cm I Objection to tha fora of tho
question. h« is leading the witnaaa, Your H<
i ! A I bo long to « Io m i of that eategory in
4 ! Roanoke.
»T MR. MOODYi
8
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lb ! tho
<4 Mom, another question. DurLt* your t
" P m U M t of L*«l 550, would ,o» itit< .hothor or Dot
» uuttop hu u m od uw floor rogordiw, th. m r f r of
***• two rootoro between 974 and 550T
A Mot Margin* of tHa rosters, no, air.
^ * nattar aoaa to the floor in
compaction with aoas othar Method of putting tha roatara
^ **** oana on tho floor to top hotti
18
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4 Could you toll ua whan and what nation, if
«nj, was tanen on that nattarr
A I will have to approainato tho nonth. it
»aa oithar Septanbar or Oatohor of 1968. Wa had a nesting
whoroaa wa diaouaaod topping and bottoaing of tha
seniority roatara with tha offloora fron 974 and 550, and
^ *** brought to tha floor in our lodga.
Q All right, air.
A And tha aon were not favorable on ana voto
1 /b ̂
M. W. Klttl - Dlr«ot
w« had.
8«*
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* *»■ « , t h a , w . „«,» BM
th*7 Tot* t t on om v o te r
4 Thaydid.
^ And than what happanad?
* A - In m o th er M I U , i t „
« V mmmy eery.. « .orre.tly. tt M e teblad. x
thlak it ia atlli tablad.
41 111 rl*ht- »• »*»•. «n* other .utter.
H.V. y « h i an opportun ity to Know of the tu rnow of
eteUoye. tn the or » r d in to rfo ld ?
* I have ren down the re e te re .
4 *“ * wh*t **• the tu rnover d u r l i* the
p«et four year*. Whet h « the tu rnover In the
XorfoDc t e r d . H w n u y n n « w . ,,
* «hpioyaa, i f you Know, hava
baan taployad?
A Wall, I would say in tha paat two yaara,
of two and • heir yer. the, hey. hlrto loo mo. tod x
would M y 75 to 80 of the. ere .till war tin,.
Q A H right, air.
A Soaawhara in tha mighborhood of 25 nan
have e i th e r q u it o r been d ie q u a lif ie d or « . r e l e M .
* to the laat two yean, epproxltotely. you
-r they euploywd 100 ton. tow. have you ett.^tto -
»»“ h ere . Wha t do you d u e your f l ^ r a
inx
«55
on that you have Just given?
A Just what I observed on the seniority
rosters over the past years.
MR. MOODY: We have no further questions,
Your Honor.!I
YH£ COURT: Cross-examine, Norfolk and
Western.
MR. worth mar OM* We have no questions.
Your Honor.
CROSS -KXAMZNATXON
!
| ** MR. BALLBRi
Q Ifc*. Kitts, could you tell us what your
i
j exeat seniority date is as a Norfolk terminal yard
I
I brakeman.I
A January 24, 196I.
4 And what is your date of seniority as a
Norfolk terminal yard conductor?
A It is in January 1964.
Q Mow, during the period November 1966 to
December 1969# when I believe you testified you were the
president of Local 550, you stated that your men had
diaouased and considered a proposal respecting topping and
bottoming from Local 974. Did you have any communioatloc
H. V. Kitts - Direct
856
fros the W T regardlng any proposal of dovetailing?
A Ho, sir, I don’t.
4 Did you at any Mating of that union dissues
or receive any coaHinleatloa fron tha Norfolk and Vestarn
Conpany regarding dovatailing?
A No, air, I did not.
4 Just one final thing. In your observation
working in tha or lord over the period of the last few
years, have you noticed any change in the offleleney of
the operations there?
A well, the e«g>aay has tried te oversee the
overall efficiency of the terminal. They always have and
they continue to do this.
4 In your Judgment would you say that she
operations in the CT yard are as efficient as they have
been in the past?
A I would say ao, yea, air.
4 Mow, just one final thing. would yeu tell
ua how nany tines you have been furloughed since you wonted
in the Norfolk terminal?
A One tine.
4 That was for what period?
A 18 or 20 days.
Ml. BALLKRi No further questions.
__THK COURT* step down.
H. W. Kitts - Cross
#
H. V. Kitts - Cross
(Witness excused.)
857
E, W, WILSON. oslied as a witness by and
:> on behalf of the united Transportation Union, being first
h duly sworn, testified as follows»
i|/
8
j|
1
DIRECT EXAMINATION
9
10
!
j BY MR. MOODY;
n ! *! State your name and address, please.
12 A E. w. Wilson, 1420 Laxeview Drive, Virginia
13 Beach, Virginia.
11 4 Where are you employed. Nr. Wilson?
15 A Norfolk and Western Railway Co^any.
10 <4 And when did you go to wcaric for the Norfolk
17 and Western?
18 A March 1, 1963.
19 W Where did you go to work?
20 j A In the CT yard at Norfolk terminal.
2! j W And what type work did you apply for and
22 | obtain at that time?
23 !1 A well, a friend of mine was a conductor
21 there and he took me out and told mm he oould get me s
Job as bra iceman, and I was employed as a braicemsn by the
12 0 ^
W . billow - Dirtet
N 4 W. J58_
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4 How lon« Tou a br>b«nn?
A I •till am a brakeman, even though I hold
conductor., ..Monty, I « . pro«>t« m « „ ^
Of July 1969.
W ■•»• you vorfcad on tha Norfolk CT I M
•ontlnuounly .Inc, your Initial auployua»t with th. Morf.lk
and Western ?
A Tti, air.
« *«J hay. you .orkad throughout th. yard
In th. Morfolic area in that aapaalty?
A Yea, air, I have.
* Have you had the opportunity to obaarve
th. .ora that talc., plan. l„ th. larnay yard In MorfollcJ
* I.a, air w. hay. Job, that ar. oallad
hU"P — ‘*— »ta, and thl. 1. pl.oln, coal on th. a«-n.,
»rd, and .. go into thl. ar.. to pi... th.« aut., .no
«a a*c th. .ortcara, and .. tala to than, and thay also
hay. . drink ~ohln. that ~ go down and u « and g.t
drinks.
Q Mow, would you tell us, if you will, some
Of th. dlff.r*ne.a. If any, that you kno. of, b.t«.n th.
two yard, in th. work that la «am«d out t h m .
A well, s Barney man has duties that arev
to I Bin in the yard, as ins already bean
1 2 Ik
<*• w< - Direct 859
' *0. *nng brakes, ellablng up dam, a*,.
i and things. But our work U aore rarlad. w. „
’ ~»1«. aquipaant. w. h.,. to p. of up>
< Batting UP and down off equlp-nt, moving ntM to t.n
| *" hour‘ w* h*T® a*algnaanta that none in tha fortlook
„ j J»m. Tha conductor on thia aaaignaant will ba
responsible for making up aight or nina elaaaifioationa
" ! * tr*ln 10 •t*tlon or«ar. And it aounda kind of
» | bUt * Xardwaster glva. you aoo * .„Uch M -
111 i f0UT tr,c“ t0 •"l‘«h tha. on, and you hay. to put
,, | avarything in order and gat tha rafrigarator cara,
l2 ! axploaiva cars i., order and it takea knowledge that I
| <aon-t baliava tha Barnay yam w . Thmf dOB.t have
11 thit *” * °r “o « UP there ia shat it amount a to.
lr> a Wh*t •b0“t the working conditions ivofarj ” c ̂ aanilnaaa and thia type of thin, la aonoam*. would
i? | you tan ne whether or not thara are any aubatantiai
IH 1 »»<! if .0, What they t„ thia oonnsotion.
IS A A. far ,, olaanilneaa gosa, tha Barnay aaa
a, I hare to uae grease to gat these ears aorlng. Now they da
21 | it with sticks and gloves and things like thia. And 1
22 | imagine they do gat aoaa of It on thea. But in turn, I
2 .1 j don't baliava they are subjected to aoaa of tha dirty
21 j conditions we are. Like in tha empty yard whan wa wane
°w thare, we have to go in betwean these cars with
E. W. Wilson - cirtet 860
brake sticks and splices to open the butted knuckles.
The ears are being dropped on a free roll into the e^>ty
yard, and when they hit dust flies out of thesi. we ride
on top of the ears, and if I a« riding on the head end I
can looic at the rear and I ean just barely see the jeen,
beeause coal dust Is swirling and things of this nature.
Both the Jobs are dirty.
i
s j * Now, you Motioned brake at less end spikes.
j Are these both lnstruMnts that are used that require the
o j Physical carrying out of aotlvltyf
12
i;i
A Yes, sir. The Min place that a brake
stick and spike is used is In the return to the eag>ty yard.
Our Job la to go in these tracks, get the track of
h | •‘NPtiea •olid, as we call it. That is, get all the
ir, j couplers and knuckles together.
1,1 Now, to do this without a brake stick
17 spike, an engine would have to seat and beat back and forth
is j fros approximately 45 minutes to an hour. What we do Is
19
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Insert a spike In the knuckle of the oar using the edge
r i
of the drawhead as a lever, put the brake stick behind the
spike and pull forward our body to pop the knuckles open.
We do this to about 50 cars per track In about 35 tracks.
2;i j Then the engine can shove back and couple the ears and
-* j nske then all solid with one shove baok.
I
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7 7
*61
, Introduced In erldcncc, I believe. you fcoilUr with
2 I these objects?
iI
;i | A i am. And I am liica tha Barney Hurd. II
\ don't like them too aaich either. We use them neatly i*
the empty yard. They are laying around between the tracks.
The main reason we would need one la If drawheads are
7 **7 P**a*d* How, moat of the oars we can get with
8 | bPWc* ■tloic •«* *Pi»ce. But If the drawheads are by passed
9 j ** ***• to t*JO* • Pinch bar and move the ears apart so that
10 j w* can ^Just the drawheads and line the tcnuokles up. This
11 really about the only plaoe that I have ever used one.
iJ i They are not an integral part of our duties all over the
13 yard.
14 Q few held office In Loeal 550?
A Yes, sir. I have been loeal chairman of
550 since 1969, and I was recently re-elected to that
17 | office.
Q And what are the duties, or what is the
19 | responsibility of a local chairman In a local of the
>u United Transportation union?
A A local chairman deals mainly with the
22 grievances of individual members for the lodge as a whole,
j process these grievances through local officers of the
carrier. If no aoeord is reached, we forward the
grievances to the general chairman for further handling.
B. W. Wilson - Direct
5. w. Wilson - rirect 862
.... — .... — ___ _________________
1 But. Of court*, thl. awt *Uo have th. .pprov.i of M m
2 lodge as a
i
whole.
• > Q And have you attended lodge nestings
4 ! during the last five or six years pretty regularly?
5 A
i Tee* sir. That is one thing I believe in.
<■) the union.
1 I go pretty regular.
/ 1 a And were you present during any nestings
8 »htn t cu. *p f u s i n g *„T typ« 8f Mrgn. „f t8.
9 rosters of 974 and 550?
10 A Yhs, sir. 1 resenber it. The date
1 ] wouldn't be elear in «y nind, but, of course, I heard the
12 letter read
| in Court the other day, and I anew it was in
l. 'i 1966.
14 <4 And what do you recall regarding any aet1an
1 5 by 550 on that natter!
Hi !
i A *•!!» actually we too* a vote on the
1 7 I dutttlon, but «• didn't tun *ny .ctlon btctuM our W i l
18 || lodge does not have the authority to aet on flitters of
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this nature. These things are handled by our general
20 j ohaiman. Mow, we can aaae recoanendatlons, but not
2 1 : binding reeoinaendations. And, of course, at a local lodge
')') ,
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■Mtln* th.re might be 25 men present, u l thoM 25 men
x\ I
l1 can't speaic for 300 s o m that we have alloyed an the
24 j yard.
25 |
j Q — ? • • • • And you do not recall any
1 12 £ x
E. w. Wilson - Diroot
•poeific official notion being taken while you wore
I president?
|
A we put it in what you call the round file.
You know, we couldn't do anything about it anyway.
4 what about any merger of the two
fraternal lodges. Co you recall any request coming from
97̂ . Did that take place?i
A Mo, sir. Mo request has coma to our
lodge to merge. Just the lodges by themeslyes. I
I
! discussed it quite a few times with officers and members of
the other local, but they hayen't seemed in favor of it,
! really.
4 Mow, Mr. Wilson, are you fastillar with the
seniority system as an employs of the railroad?
A Yes, sir. I think every employs is
familiar with it.
Q And would you tell as whether or not the
seniority system exists in th* Norfolk ares as between
i|
the members of, or employes of the Barney Yard and
employes on the CT Yard. la there a seniority system
involved that separatea thoae two from each other?
A Yea, air. To my knowledge they have
always been separated.
Q And do you oonelder the seniority system
j to be of importance or value to the railroad employes?
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A I have been sitting In Court in the last
f*" dsjrs listening to people talk about it, and I was
trying to think of a description, and i did. Seniority
to ne is like building a house. Everyday I go to work
I Put a brick n that house. Mow, until I get the house
couple ted, a lot of things, really, they can go wrong.
Bad weather. That is when I get laid off, atoleh has
happened to at before, and when you get the house depleted
you oan look forward to a good job. You can look forward
to aone kind of security and no one oan taka it away fro*
fou. felt until you do get it built, or if ease one o o m i
•long and knoeka the house down, you are starting all over
again, and It la vary Important to at and every nan working
on the railroad.
h In other words, it takes a long tine to
build up seniority on the railroadj does it not, la sons
instances?
A lea, air. it ia all isportant to a».
It is the only incentive at tinea that you have to keep
thi* Jch, You nay be off at anethar job aaicb* tea aore
dollars a week, but you don't want to give up eight ynaiw
that you built up In this seniority a ye tea, because it Is
Just to your benefit.
Q And would you state whether or not
dovetailing of the two rosters here would be e breaking
1 2 7 k
________ *• Wilson - Direct
E. W. Wilson - Direct 865
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of that seniority systen that you have?
A yes, sir, I would. And what It is, you
put on the seniority roster, and you know you are goU«
to move up. This Is a condition that you can see dally,
or yearly, whatever It nay he. And If Just one nan la
put on a seniority list ahead of you. It ■«gy»e seen the
difference between you working a daylight Job or a
nldnlght job, and this is why it Is laportant.
** you feel this la lap or tan t to the aen
on the Barney Yard also that no one be able to Intrude
upon their seniority?
NR. BEIT ONi Objection.
THE COURTi Well, ha can't apeak for the
Barney Yard. But I am confident hie answer would
be yes. If he were allowed to answer it. So I
will anewer it for hie.
NR. BELTON: That is what ws were trying
to avoid, Your Honor.
THS COURT: That la another one of those
have you stopped beating your wife questions. Do
you believe in Motherhood and the flag. go
ahead.
MR. MOODY: All right, sir.
A (Continuing) Mr. Moody, 1 can tell yeu
how it would affect eoae of the sen. it would have good
1 2 * K
866
snd bad effects.
MR. HELTON* i aove to strike, your Honor.
It is not s question on the floor.
THE COURT t It would mows sons up on the
seniority list, snd sons down. I osn see thet.
I night be s hell of s judge but I osn work
ns t hens ties.
MR. BELT ON * Tour Honor, he vss
responding to something snd the question uses't
asked.
THE COURT: it doesn't neks any differeaee.
He doesn't have to tell ns. it is like whether
the coal dust is only on the Barney Tard or the
general yard. You all took two days to worry
about that.
MR. BELT ON i We waive all (mentions on the
wind mess of the days. Your Honor.
MR. MOODY* i have no other questions,
Judge.
THE CttJRT s Let us ask you one question.
If a sen is s brakeaan and he gets $32.58 a day,
if he has been s brakeaan for fire years, dess
he still get $32.58, or a pay euolunent for years
of servioe?
__ ____ THE WITHESSt Sane rate. Your Honor.
E.w. Wilson - Dlrset
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867
THE COURT i If he has boon a brakssan
15 yoara does he get anything sort tbia $32.58,
or whatever the wage ia?
THE witnesst Saae rate. The only
he gate ia an increase in vacation allowance.
TUI COURT 1 All right, air. Cross-
examine.
MR. WORTH DOT OH» Ho questions, Tour
Honor.
CROSS EXAMZHATZGH
BY HR. HALLER*
Q On your Job, Mr. Wilson, how often would
you say you use a ear sever?
A (taly when I as working ia the eapty yard.
This is a yard where we return e^tles.
Q And when you work la the empty yard on
those days, how often do you use it?
A Only if the drawheads are by passed, end
you sight find two a tree* out of 35 tracks.
Q Does that happen every day?
A No, it does not.
3 Does it happen every week?
--- A __ -I Would say that it happens within a 24 hour
7
E. W. Wilson - Direct
868E. w. Wilson - Cross
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period. You assn a day, a 24 hour period?
Ho, a shift. A day that you work?
A A day that I work I sight only work thrss
tracks. I as certain In othar tracks — out of these
three tracks I will find one, yes, sir.
Q So did you say there sight be two or three
out of 35 tracks?
A No, What I said was you sight find two
a track, or you sight find three a track, or you sight
not find any for three tracks. You don't know until you
go down there and look.
Q So there aust be quite a few days you
don't have to use a ear sover at all?
A Yes, sir. If I don't work in the jcid
I sore than likely would not use one at all.
W And if you would work in the yart there
sight be days you wouldn't use one too ?
A Yes, sir.
Q How, you stated that you have been
attending seetlngs of Lodge 550 pretty regularly far a
nuaber of years) is that correct?
A Yes, sir, I have.
Q You have taken an Interest in the proposals
before this lodge?
A I J»ve tried to.
1 i I
don't care what the proposal would be.
4 So you don't want anyone to get near your
seniority roster?
A No, sir. it has been taapered with one|
tine and we suffered as a result.
•*i Let ne read part of thia letter to you.
| Zt *,f* th4t mt th# ~«ting a sot ion was sade, seconded
I and prop^ ly to table the request on a conference
with your lodge.
E. w. Wilson - Cross
Now, let me state it exactly.
"... with Norfolk Ledge No. 550 local
grievance ooaaittee by Ledge 974, for the purpee
of bottoaing and topping of aeniority rosters of
yardaen on Norfolk terainal until the seniority
of the Norfdc and Western and Virginian has been
-----—• -e ft
la that what it says?
A lbs, sir, it does.
Q How do you understand that, Niaitil the
aeniority of the Norfolk and Western and Virginian has
been aerged. "
A The aaln thing I can tell you, there
probably weren't aany aeabers at the aeetlng.
<4 So you think that most of the aeabers
wouldn't be in favor of Barging the roatara?
«74
A So, sir. Sons ass stand to gain
you wrge, and sow osn stand to loss, Out usually the
majority will loss.
* Is it eustosary for the secretary-
trsasursr to writs a lsttsr to *>. Lusk stating that s
motion was mads, ssoondsd and properly oarrlsd?
A if there are firs man at ths meetii*, they
can direct him to do it just like they can do ths ■■-t
thing in 974.
4 Without oonsultiag ths rest of ths members?
A They can send it there. Whether he takas
action or not is something else.
w- Now, you stated that your seniority ss a
railroad man is worth a great deal to yeu?
A Yes, sir.
•4 And to all railroad men?
a Yes, sir.
^ Would you say that the value of the
seniority depends on what it can be used fort
A Well, seniority is a -- it is a oossadlty,
and I don't understand what you wan, what it can be wire
for. You wan like to take a particular Job that you
want?
4 What would you think seniority would be
worth on a switch tenders roster?
E.W. Wilson - Cross
B.W. Wilson - Cross *75
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Ws don't have switch tender's rosters
k I believe sosm aen do.
A Not that I know of. They have all been
incorporated with the tralnaen's list, even though they
still hold switch tender seniority.
3 They do hold switch tender seniority?
One nan on Norfolk terminal on our roster.
What is that worth to hint
what is it worth?
To have switch tender seniority?
No one can move hla off the job where ha la
A
k
A
k
sealer.
Jobs?
Does that give hla any rights to any other
before.
No, sir, not wader the way it was set up
he has rights by the other jobs by hla
seniority date.
k As switch tender or braieeann?
a As switch tender and brajeeaan. But, at
course, seniority date as breioeaan.
^ Well, as switch tender, with switch teadei
seniority, be has a right to switch tender jobs?
A Yes. a brajeeaan list could not aove hla
off that job.
•4 How aany iwlloh tondir11 jobs irt there?
A Tou assn in the yard?
<4 R ig h t .
A Two saoh shift and two rsliof jobs.
<<4 How, how aany jobs doos your seniority
givo you a right to, if it is sufficient ssniority, in
tsras of relative terns to everythlx* else?
£. W. w ila on - Cross
A
Q Right. i
A I stand for quite a number of jobs on Norfolk
terminal, but I an on the extra list by oho lee.
* ^ there are how aany jobs approximately
you would work at one tine or another?
A You naan good jobs or bad ones?
Q Any hind.
A I stand for a whole buneh of bad ones and
a couple of good onee.
Q More than the man with switch tender
seniority anyway?
A No, sir. This nan has a hrstreesn‘s
seniority date that is back; in *53.
Q But it is the brakeaan's seniority that
gives him a right to other jobs, the switch tender
seniority?
A Right.
>7>5 v
E. W. Wilson - Cross !
877 I
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* la othsr words, it seens to — ^ «
| difference what Kind of seniority you have.
A Well, sure. l can't work conductor's Job
un^**s I have conductor's seniority.
*4 If you have seniority rights on better Jobs
j • :
that is a different Kind of seniority right froa seniority
righto on worse jobs.
TOE COUNTt I don't follow you.
A if you want as to answer it, X don't
understand what you are talking about.
i
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BY m. BALLBRi
I
4 You told ibs you had seniority rights to
|
soas good jobs and soas bad Jobs.
A Right.
<4 What I aa trying to ask you la whether It
la all the saas to you. Would you Just as seen as have
seniority rights to a bad job as to a good job?
A I don't understand. You are ncrtiig as
whether X would rather work a good Job or not, aa opposed
to a bad jobj right. I would rather work a good Job.
i
4 And it is your seniority rights ttat give i
you that opportunity? I
A Yes, sir.
THE COURT: But the seniority rights t even
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to a bad job as against unenploynent are
important j is that right ?
THE wrmsssi las. Sir. it is lilts han
as taka conductor, we had to vara bad jobs for
two or three /ears before I can get back to a good
brakeaan's job.
a. W. Wilson - Cross
TH8 CQURTt Let's aove alos*. I don't
believe we are in any area of great relevance in
this ease.
BY m. HALLERs
Q Would you trade your seniority as a yard
conductor fear a Barney Yard conductor's seniority?
A For a Barney Yard conductor's seniority?
^ Right. sane date.
A Soae of the jobs I would and soae I wouldn't.
I don’t think any of then got the exact sane date that Z
stand, 165 on the conductor seniority roster. Tiny only
have 38 promoted conductors, as I understand it. I don't
see how I could trade with then. I an on the botton of
the list in the yard, and I would be on the botton of theirs.i
I oouldn't get anything good out of it either way.
<4 So you don't think you would probably want
to trade it?
A Xt wouldn't nake any differenaa iithay
B. w Wilson - Cross 8?9
Of course, are you asking ns which I would rather haws,
mj standing or their standing?
Q Right. Well, l an asking you whether
you would rather hare seniority rights in the CT yard wfcleh
| you do, or in the Barney Yard where you don't?
A I have bean working there eight years, andI
I would rather have the CT yard.
I
Q la that beoause you think this la a better
kind of seniority right?
A It la beoause I have been working there
eight years. That would be the only reason.
Q Suppose you could have seniority with
olght years seniority date in the Barney Yard?
A i don't know whet it would be in the Barney
Yhrd, but I will tell you they play e lot of sards up thers
and I like to play cards. so I would be prejudiced.
<4 that I an trying to ask you is if you think
that all seniority rights are tbs sent?
A Bo, air, they are not. I would rethor be
an engineer. 1 would trado with an tng 1 noar in a nlnuta
Q So thero nay bo a difference between
different kinds of seniority rights aa to deteradna hew
desirable they would be?
A Sure. There ere e lot better Jobs then Z
have got.
7718 -X
fi.W. Wilson - Cross
MR. BILLERi No further questions.
2 THE C O U R T * All right, sir. stop down.
3 (Witness excused.)
4
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(Recess.) 1
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T O P A. KAREPf, aaliod as a wltnoos by and |
8 on bo fas if of tBo United Transportation Union, being first
9 dul/ sworn, testified as followi
10
1 1
12
1
DIRECT EXAMINATION
13 BY m . H O C D Y : 1
14 Q State your nans and address, please.
13
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A Emd A. Hardin, 843 Aldeman Hoad,
1H Jacksonville, Florida.
17 H Ifc*. Hardin, what Is your present position
18 ' with tho u<od Transportation Union?
19 j A International vise president.
20
Q And Is this a full tine position or duty?
21
1 A Yea, sir.
22 j
<4 Prior to holding that position, what did
23 you do. wall , let so g o bask further than that, perhaps,
24 and ass you wars you at ono tins a railroad sag leys
23 workliii on tho railroad?
“* V I K
2 5
F. A. Hardin - Direct 881
A Yea, sir.
4 And tall m, if you will, where you live*
| at that tine?
A i was an enploye of Southern Railroad e»e
livad in Oraamrille, South Carolina, and r an
eoploye of Southarn on Octobar 1, 19*0.
4 Row, prior to going to work on th*
railroad, what aduoation did you hava?
A Wall, I, of course, finished high achool,
and than I contemplated going to collage, hut I had a
ehanee to play profeoaional baaahaii so I decided to
baoooe a baseball player. And after a couple of ysan
they advlaad m that my feat ware getting too big and I
would newer be a national hero, ao I decided I would have
to gat in something else, and I want to work for the
Southarn Railroad.I
4 And at that tine what type worlc did you do?
A I was flret employed aa a brakeman.
i
4 That waa at (hreanville, South Carolina?
A Yea, air.
>4 Did you belong to the United Transportation '
Union, or Brotherhood of Railroad Trainaen union lodge at
that tins?
A Yea, sir. I beoaaa a amber of BRT Lodge
641 in Oreenvill#.
IHO^
4 And how long did you woric there as a
bra tee man?
f * A. Hardin - Direct
A I worked three years as a hrskeman and w
promoted to conductor October 1, 1943.
•% Now, did you later hold other offleas in
or o m « M in u* iooal ot th# ^
Railroad Trainman?
A Yes, sir. 1 was a vioa-local ohairsmn.
than a loaal chairmen, then e vice-general chairman, and
than general chairman, and then alternate vice-president.
And alternate vice president, is that a
position with the United Transportation union National
Organisation?
A Yes.
Q As well as the international?
A Yes.
Si Then whet was your next position after bel
alternate vice president?
A International vice-president.
Is that your present position?
A Yesj sir.
Q Whet does that involve, end what areas do
you work in?
A Well, the duties of an international wise-
president are to carry out assignments of the president,
■w*.
f.k. Hardin - Direct qqj
1 first. Primarily, however, I assit general committees,
2
3
general chairman in negotiations, agreements with the
various railroads, and attempting to resolve disputes with
4 the various railroads and public law boards, et cetera,
5 and in addition to that I personally have been involved
()
•
with most national negotiations in the past four or five
years.
.
8
9
Q You mentioned that you held the position of
alternate vice-president. when did you take office in
10 that position?
11 A 1964.
12
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Q And when did you become international
vice-president?
A 1968.
15 Q Now, what areas of the country have you
10 J
17
worked in aa international vice-president, or alternate
vloe-president?
• A Well, historically we have had vice-
19 presidents in the northeast, southeast, and various seatleas
20 | of the country. But in as much as I have been in
21 |
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national negotiations my assignments have covered the
entire United States and aven some of the railroads I hive
23 jj worked on, even up into Canads. But all over, at least th e
24 eaatarn half of the united States, and sometimes west.
25 Q. Mow, during the tins that you have been
i
matter? I
j
I have to be very careful. i don't want to
be --
THK COURTi Don't tell as anything that
happened at the conference. Those people are not
parties to this suit.
BY MR. MOODYi
<4 were you able to continue your efforts or
not?
* Upon receipt -- Nr. Rock later wrote Nr. Lusk
a letter asking that we schedule another aaoting for further
consideration in handling of this mtter. itt*. im*
referred it to ae, and I called Nr, room and told hia that
it would be futile for us to attoapt to handle it any
further, in view of the fact that z had been advised that
irrespective of what we did they couldn't settle the
complaint. It would be handled by setae attorneys, and
they would not have the right to aatae a settlement.
4 And have you had any further oonferenee
with any representatives of 97b, with spoolflo referee##
to this aattor since then?
A No, no conferences at all, sir.
<4 I would ask you whether or not you and Nr.
Lusk asds every effort you could to work this aatter out?
W 3
A. HardIn - Direct JOl
I
A We o e r ta in ly d id , in ay opinion. I th in k
i
we were successfu l in n eg o tia tin g a proposed »i;i ne—nt th a t
I thought was exac tly what the Barney Yard eag>loyes wanted, j!
and I was very disappointed th a t they f e l t lik e they needed I
th is o ther p rov ision in th e re . However, I recognised their
|
r ig h t to c e r ta in ly ask fo r saneth ing e ls e . In fo o t, I
"
expressed my disappointm ent and discouragement to Local
Chairman Rock, and to ld h i* th a t I o e r ta in ly wished th s t we
had the ways and asm s to continue i t and reso lve i t , hut i s
view of the advice I had received from the Federal
Government th a t i t would be im possible. And Mr. Rock
seemed to be d isappoin ted . In f a c t , he said tc se — he
wrote a l e t t e r th a t he thought a group of employes could
atop anything th a t they had s ta r te d , but apparen tly they
co u ld n 't in th is in stance .
<4 Now, in connection with your p o s itio n as an
in te rn a tio n a l o f f ic e r , with reference to proposing topping
and bottoming in the Norfolk yards, did you s t th a t time
have knowledge o f, or do you now have knowledge of how th i s
would work and what period of time would be involved in
order fo r the men to gain boom s e n io r i ty on the ro s te r in
the o ther yard?
A w ell, a t the time th a t I was f i r s t involved
in th i s , I , of course, t r ie d to acquaint myself w ith the
working c o n d itio n s . And, a t th a t tim e, t o the best of
F. A. Hardin - Direct 902
?. A. Hardin - Direct 903
ray Descry, there were about 135 Barney lard employee
holding eeniorlty only in the Barney Yard and working there.
And there were, according to the information furnished me,
over 300 employes on the seniority roster end working In
CT Tax'd. And the agreement that X arranged for, U p. Lusk
and I, would have provided that the 135 Barney T*rd men
be placed in their seniority order at the bottom of the i
CT Yard seniority roster, and the 300-plus, whatever the
figure is, CT men would be placed on the bottom of the
Barney Yard roster in their seniority order. This, as I
said before, had been done on many, many railroads throughout
the united States In yard, and In road, and in various other !
seniority categories. And this would allow all of the
Barney Yard man to start accumulating seniority in the
CT Yard ahead of a man on the street who hadn't been hired
yet. And, vice versa. A CT Yhrd man would start to
accumulate seniority in the Barney Yard.
And In view of the attrition rate, and,
incidentally, I investigated and I was amazed to find that
Norfolk the railroad attrition rate or turnover rate in
Norfolk far exceeds the national average. And It appears
that this la because many men are released from military
j
service, I guess the Navy, primarily, and take a Job with
the railroad, and the resignation rate is very high in the
Norfolk area. I presume, I was told, that these people
1^5 x
? . A Hardin - r i r e e t
M turm d to th f y i r i ■»]>
*** •’• « • ^ ” >• country they ltv —
b*for* **“ * »•» In the eervlo*.
*nd M other th in* th a t apparen tly ha* >oa.
connection Is when the ah lpyard . , orltlng th#7 w y>rjr
ra t lv e ra te* of pay, and ra ilro a d aen re sig n and go to
worn fo r the shipyarda and whatever.
However, ay figu re* , based on the e—ber of
people on the s e n io r i ty ro s te r . I n d ic a te th a t the
turnover r a te her* was about 13 per cen t.
3 Annually?
A Annually. And th* n a tio n a l average, ehleh
1 an Involved r ig h t now In , the n a tio n a l average a . s g j ^ j
to by th* c a r r ie r re p re sen ta tiv e and th* union, and the
Federal Oovernaent, Is between 5 per cent end 10 per sen t
With a good f ig u re of 7.5 p er cent probably being c o m e t , i
So hearing the testim ony th a t I heard a
little while ago that there would be 1J1 or 102, I d id n 't
hear It muira » * *... ...
~ecenber 196d. i t i s eaay to see , had we put in th ia
Era on the propoeed date of Ceoeaber 1 . 1963, th a a . m j
would have already moved up 101 notohee, *0 to apeak. In
the CT yard. And I am sure that they have employed a
goodly nuaber of people i„ the B «ney yard. go
o o n v .re .ly , the CT people would have moved up on the
seniority ro s te r in the Barney Yard.
F - A' H*J\Un V\r+c\
.ffset w o u ld . 4, „ u u w
i- r*> can tel; us -X* rour acquaintance „lth ^
-hat effect would a ^
th* low*r •“ » o f the seniority roster, r
* '*•11, I =»n’t comprehend a dovetailing
without .rest confusion, dlepair. dlaenohantmant with the
• m e . , and everything else, because the people who were
«lv« seniority rights, whether It be in the cr yard or
people over In the Barney yard, .hen they exercise those
rights, and surely they would, ,.cfl M n ln tur„ und.rn.w h
hi- senlorlty-wlse would tag. a attractive job. yeu
ould have to step down, and the step down process, of
course, the end result If so waxy people are furloughed and
they would go home with no compensation, and no guarantee
whatsoever other then railroad retirement for the
prescribed number of days.
* Let m as* you this, j*. Bardin. Poes t*«
jR*nS svn s m w n lui In yeur
obeervatlon and acquaintance with this JlorfoUt eltuatloot i
l Well, the aenlorlty of the Barney yard nes
to the Barney y a rd employee certainly la aoet valuable to
them because it is the ways and means that they select the
Job of their choice.
H And would this seniority be affected if a
dovetailing tone piece In the Barney yard?
V ‘1 1
I
F. A. Har«din - Direct
A I f I understand c o rre c tly , the d o v e ta ilin g
th in g th a t has oeen oentloned to oa - we nover went in to
i t . I t via never diacueeed la the .e a tin g s th a t I had
» « . u m I explained to then th a t th a t co u ld n 't be under our
c o n s titu tio n . x n aw r heard of any auch th in g . But I f
they planned on d o v e ta ilin g the CT la rd I t would have g rea t
e f fe o t on the CT yard, and i f the d o v e ta ilin g was to be
-ada In the Barney Yard, I t would have the sene e f fe c t
th e re , c e r ta in ly .
’h. What e f fe c t would i t be, good or bad?
A Well, i t would c e r ta in ly be — i t would be
dlaaateroua to some, but i t would cause some people to be
thrown e n tire ly out of work aa somebody ala* te a t i f le d .
Some naan with a g rea t deal of s e n io r i ty , i t might help him,
MR. BELTONi Objection, Tour Honor.
THE COURT: Ho m atter what sowabody e lse
t e s t i f i e d , you as an expert can t e s t i f y about the
e ffec t r' i:
THE WITHERS; Tes, s i r . j
A (Continuing) C erta in ly p lacing one man
i
ahead of another on the s e n io r i ty ro s te r l im its h la Job
p o te n tia l . i t lim its h is p o te n tia l to earn more money to
take a job of h la choice. i t may make overtime or have
a rb ltrm rle s or what not th a t o ther jobs d o n 't have.
And then the ra ilro a d Industry , wa are
9 6
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?. A. Hardin - Direct 907
unique in the fa c t we d o n 't have any longevity pay such aa
■y
government employes, ana so fo r th . A man wortca t h i r t y
yeare d o e sn 't receive a n iok la ex tra fo r hio long ye are of
eerv ioe.
1
^ What e f f e c t , in your opinion, would i t hews J
on the morale of the men?
A Well, i t would c e r ta in ly have a g rea t effect
on the morale of the men, beoauee s e n io r i ty i s a valuable
p roperty r ig h t . i t is about the only th ing th a t of te n t lams
I
Keeps a man from q u it tin g a ra ilro a d Job. Before ha quits
e ra ilro a d Job, lik e he might in a s to re or eo tton m ill , ha
th inks about th is s e n io r i ty and how he has worked up to a
b e t te r job B eleotlon. And in f a c t , in the business.
one of the g rea t values of s e n io r i ty , i f you ever saw a
ra ilro a d man go In the fu rn itu re s to re in a ra ilro a d town
and seek c r e d i t , the f i r s t th ing the c re d it manager would
ask him when he to ld him he worked on the ra ilro a d , would be
how much s e n io r ity do you have.
<4 What about the e f fe c t of such a proposal on
work h a b its . Do you th ink i t would a f fe c t the work h a b its
of the man?
A i t would c e r ta in ly a f fe c t work hab its
because ra ilro a d men are lik e a l l o th e rs . They may share
a r id e to work with a neighbor who la on the same craw, and
they have a o o a |> a tib illty w ith one or the o th e r, and m j
' 1
F. A. Hardin - Direct 908
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prefer to work with a nan and may prefer -- meat railroad
nen prefer to work daylight. Most of the railroad man
prefer to be off on Sunday so they can go to ehuroh tad
what-not. IXit that la the real, one of the real valuta
of seniority and seniority rights. Host railroad men
obligate themselves. They buy the type hotae they think
they can pay for in accordance with their seniority, and
what they can expect to earn. And they live in a
neighborhood that U in accordance with their seniority.
Their whole life is entwined with seniority.
Let ae as* you whether or not tto
seniority system la important to the international union
itaelf. Does it have any importance to the union and lta
membership?
a It hss a great deal of importance to the
union. Actually the union la nothing more than a
collective group of individual members, and the
individual members have to have a --
■4 Coes It have any effect on the union's
ability to control its membership ?
A Absolutely. The function of the local ***■
changed drastically in the last 85 years. The meters new,
the rsilroad employes,like employes, I presume, in all other
industries, are better educated. They have had a far better
childhood, and they are aware of the value of an agreement.
SO X
1
A. Hardin - Direct
*• - . P X of It on th. railroad, .oat of t h » «
iawyara. Tha, ar. a,part. on agraa-nta. ^ th#
” ry f*°* that ta" th« ••niorlty ay.ta. and th. r.ct
that to. far of loam, to. a.niorlty 1. about th. M 1 ,
x.pon you hold ov.r thalr haad, „ * „ ..
* Kt ■ m u I oan undarstand what you
« « . How, you hava aart.in rula. and „„,utl0I1. i
».ll«y tabor *.t that tn. aa.bar.hlp of tn. .mo. t.
raquirx to ao*>iy withi 1, that aorra.tr I
A Yaa, air.
909
* And thia, for would prohibit a
wildcat • trite# j would it not?
I
A Abaolutoly.
^ And if a wildcat atrlica la about tha taica
pi..., would you .tat. what bar or not th. w o I.t.ru.tlon. 1 I
"111 atta.pt to Intoroad, to a»old a wlld.at atrlao!
* Carta Inly th. WO, a n , of th. labor unlo«
In tn. railroad Induatry would aua arary .ffort to
dlocourogo or prohibit an lll.«al atria., and w a h a v a j
gon. .0 far a. to - w. na». . proaloton l» our
conatltutlon that thoa. who an,.,. in 1 U .U 1 and .!«..» 1
• trite#® will b« expelled from the union. j
* What part does the aeniority system play
m your ability to dloolpUn. tn. „ „ to .bid. by th. laur !
« If • « n Know. that ha 1. going to loaa hi. i
P. A. Hardin - Elreot 910
Job , and he knows that the railroad will need him badly
Monday, or alx months from now, and he can cone back without
any better Job or loss, you wouldn't have any way of
curbing him, so to apeak. But by the fact that if he la
dismissed and loaea seniority, even If he comas back a year
from now he la at the bottom of the totea pole and has to
i
go through thoee yeara of hardahlp to get a desirable Job
again la a very valuable tool, both for the railroad and for
the union.
Q Right. And it la important In labor
relations between management and labor; la that correct?
A Absolutely.
* One or two other questions. You have
here two seniority districts In Norfolk. Is It unusual to
have two seniority districts, two or more in a single city?
a Nothing unusual about it. Host terminal
railroad cities, cities or towns with railroad terminals,
have two or more seniority districts in the same town or
city. i
■«i On the question of the training neoesaary
i
to take over a position such as a brateeman on the railroad,
from your experience throughout the country, what would be
the average period of time required for a brakeman to serve j
before he would fully know the duties of that Job?
A The training period varies. Some
>t J w
• i
a . Hardin - Direct
railroads require a fifteen day training pariod for new
employe*. Ano the railroads, of oouraa, make this
training pariod as few days as poaaibla baaauaa thay ara
paying a nonproductive man. The railroad* have to pay
trainee*, and the railroads know full wall when the
trainee becomes an employe, hia fraternal brothers and
fellow worker*, they will help hia do the work by doing It
j I
for him until some day he la able to oarry hia own weight
and do a good Job.
* When this training period 1* oyer with, and
after that, do you have any estimate of how long before a
man becomes fully acquainted with the duties on the yard
such as the Norfolk yard, CT Yard?
IA 1 am not an expert in the Norfolk yard,
Moody, but in most railroad terminals it would
oertalnly depend
MR. BELTONi Objection, Your Honor. It la
not responsive to the question.
THE COURT} Let's leave that. j
.
MR. MOODYi 1 will withdraw the question.
!i
BY MR. MOODY*
Vi With reference to the question a* to why
a Section VI notice was not served in connection with this
problem, would you state under your constitution why a
70 *
911
F.A. Hardin - Direct 912
i
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11
12
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Saotlon VI notice was not served in thia natter of trying
to aattla thia aattar between tha two loaalar
A Tha aattar that I waa assigned to handla waa
attaapt to gat tha Barn#/ yard paopla Oattar job
opportunity and protection. At no tiaa whila l waa
handling it waa dovetailing aaniorit/ roatara ever
diaouaaad othar than aa/ba a oaaual sention, but it waa
Btv#r #t#B comprehended or draaaad of 0/ aa, and
accordingly, as I atatad bn fora, Mr. Lusk and I did not
aarvo a Section VI notlea for tha topping and bottoaing
b*causa wa fait wa could influanaa tha carriara to glva it
to ua without tha dua proeaaa of tha law, ao to speak.
Tha handling undar a Saation VI Hallway
Labor Aat cartainly Involves additional tiaa and amah
daisy.
^ touahad on thia, but I want to aaa
If wa can clarify it aa far aa tha Merger of tha two
fraternal organisation# in Norfolk. To your knowlodga,
haa there bean a petition by 97% or 550 for o nerfr of
tha twa loaal lodges?
A To nr knowlodga there haa bean no attest
aada to narga tha two locals. It la clearly provided for
in tha aanatltutlon how it can be dona. in fact, I
volunteered to have it dona before at a pertain point in tha
handling of thia dispute. That question m — up a pH I
5 0 ̂
f. A Hardin - Direct 913
i volunteered to a s s is t in g e ttin g I t done Immediately.
■4 Is i t unusual to have blacks and whites
in the sane lo c a l. is there anything unusual about havli*
i Membership in the lo c a l, blactc and white?
A Most of our lo ca ls are blaoit and w hite.
»' W R ight. And i f you have black and w hite,
i s there any such th ing as providing in a s in g le lo ca l fo r
s Ind iv idual rep resen ta tio n of the blaotc members and
ind iv idua l rep resen ta tio n of the white members in th a t
in lo ca l?
m i a A bsolutely n o t. That woulc bei
12 perpetuating seg regation , and we are try in g to do away with
j .
any segregation and have harmony in in te g ra tio n .
ii MR. MOODYt A ll r ig h t , s i r . That is a l l
we have.
1 THE COURTS Cross examine.
i
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WORTHIl«rON:
Mr. Hardin, with reference to your
p a r tic ip a tio n in the nego tia tions sbout the propossl to
abo lish the separa tion between the Barney Yard s e n io r ity
d i s t r i c t and the CT Yard s e n io r ity d i s t r i c t in Norfolk,
you have mentioned c e r ta in s p e c if ic dates when o e rta ln
7 v
r. A. Hardin - Croat4-
thing. happened ln thaee negotiation., haw. you not?
* *^r» f0*1 "111 h*v« to rophrass the
question because you say be leading m astray. I don't
hnow anything about aboll.hlng any seniority -- are you
taliclng about the topping and bottonlng of the seniority
roatars ?
* Wall, if thay vara toppad and bottoaad,
th. separation of the t«o district, would be done away wltht
A Eventually but not for a good winy yaara.
<4 It ia only in that aanae I at taliclng about.
You can give at a word to uaa than. Let at tal* about
topping and bottoming or otharwlat atrging. You aald
certain thinga happened on certain dataa in that oonnaetlon
aa far aa you wart concernedj did you not?
A Yea, air.
<4 Do you have a aaaorandua of your tlas table
on thaaa varloua thinga?
A Not with at, no, air.
Q Aa you taatlfiad, wart you teatifying to
thaat dataa froa aaaory, or did you havt something in
writing to refar to?
A i waa teatifying froa ay pertone1 notes aa
to the dataa I net with the a^loyaa.
4 Right. Now, do you have thoae notea
before youaa you alt there in the witness chair?
■I
:
P. A. Hardin - Cross 915
A Yes, s i r .
* Could you give us the exact date of the
see tin g th a t you had In Columbia w ith Mr. Rock and Mr.
Feanort and Mr. Haynes and w ith the p resid en t of the OTUT
A No, s i r , I cannot.
Could you give us the month?
A August, 1968.
Q Now then, is th a t the f i r s t date th a t you
had anything to do w ith th is n a tte r?
A Yes, sir.
^ I believe th a t you said th a t on a c e r ta in
date in October, which was October 23rd , 1968, th a t you and
Mr. Lusk cane to Norfolk and met with Mr. Rock, and Mr.
Feanort, and Mr. Haynes, and a lso Mr. MeOowan and Mr. K itts
of 550. is th a t the d a te , and are those the people you
met with?
A Yes.
Hoe, a t th a t t la s , I believe you said on
the 23rd of October th a t you were encouraged th a t an
agreement might be able to be worked out th a t would
accomplish a topping and bottoming of these two r o s te r s )
la th a t r ig h t ?
A I believe I s ta te d , and I meant to s t a te ,
th a t I was encouraged th a t a topping and bottoming would
resolve t h i s com plaint.
75 ?*.
P* A. Hardin - Cross 916
S 1,011 then, it was after October 23rd, 1968
after you had been In Norfolk you went to see Hr. Luna who
is, was then, and aay still be, the president of the
International Union] is that right?
A Ho, sir, I did not. 1 wrote hia - I gave
hi* * written report. I didn't visit hia.
7 4 Where did you make that report from?
s A I dictated it. I don't know - - through
H the U. 3. nail. 1
1(1 15 Did you know the date on which you made
1 1 that report to him?
12 j A No, sir, not offhand.
1:5 j 4 well, it was soaetiae after Oetober 23rd j
1 1 11 ) , was it not? I
r> A The report of the meeting in Norfolk with
I*. : the people. and certainly the report to the preaident would j
17 ; have to be after the meeting for as to aaice the report.
is 4 Did he not respond to you to go ahead and
1i't | try to work it out?
2ti A Yes, sir.
21 4 jCan you find the dates of your report to
22 1 hia and hia response to you?
2.'i ! A No, sir. I don't have the specific date,
i but it was -- I an usually very prompt, so it would be
within a very few days of the October 23rd meeting in
1 C % *
P. A. Htrdin - Cross 917
Norfolk, I presume.
^ ftlt ifc WOttid Ns sonatina aftsr October 23rdT
A Yes.
* So **• *Pter you got the response from
Mr. Luna that you began to talk to the people of the
Norfolk and Western; is that rightT
A Well, aaybe not. Yes, sir. la an offislal
way it was after that. i asy have — you see, I was in
| Norfolk over at the Norfolk and Western negotiating a
■erger agreement and handling hundreds of other natters.
dosena of other natters, and I asy have aentloned to then
about the possibility before October 23rd. I don't reastfber
that, sir. 1 had several conversations on the street with
Mr. Parsons, Mr. Martin at luneh, and what-not.
Q Well, did you some from Norfolk then and go
back up to Roanoke?
A I don't know. I nay have stopped by
Washington, sir.
^ Well, you would have to be in Roanoke to
see Mr. Martin and Mr. Parsons an the street; wouldn't
you? !
A Tea, and I also saw then in Washington.
*4 Well, I hand you what has been narked as
Norfolk and western Exhibit No. 20 and ask you to read the
handwritten notation there on the second page of that
i
; F. A. Hardin - Croat 918
•xhlbit.
A Yes. The handwritten notation.
Q air. can you raad thatT
A Nat F. A. Hardin and M. Y. L., November 13
and 14, 1968. Thay took ooplaa of attaahad to
N. F. K. terminal and are to contact ua If and
whan tha two lodgaa at M. P. K. ..."
I can't raad tha laat word, air.
Q If 1 suggest to you that It aaana "agree"
! iwould that be it?I I
A Agree sounds reasonable. it is signed
| "E. M. M 11-14 68."
) j
k What does that mamorandum assn to you la
Interpreting It ?
A it aaana that -• I would presuas he aaana
| j
that Nr. Hardin and far. Lusic todc two ooplas of this attaahad
document to Norfolk after Moveaber 33 and November 14.| j
Q And what waa the doeuaant that this refers
to, In your interpretation of It?
A It la a proposed asaorandua agree as nt to
become effective December 1 topping and bottoalng the
seniority rosters of the Barney Yard and the CT Yard.
Q Does this also suggest to you. Nr. Hardin, 1l
that you and Nr. Lusk mat with the Norfolk and Nestern people
on November 13 and November 14, 1966?
7 (vO ^
F. A. Hardin - Cross 919
A It certainly does.
* do you have any recollection of any
i __
precise date on which you had any meeting with the Norfolk
Weatern people on this subject between the tins that
you left Par folic on October 23rd and communicated with
«*. Lana and got a response, and the date of November 13
which this memorandum indicates was the meetly?
A Restate that, please.
^ You have got a period of time, Mr. Hardin,
| between October 23rd, I960 that you have fixed by
| ■••arwnAwm, and we have another date of November 13 which
we have fixed by memorandum. Do you remember any date on
which you had any formal meeting with the Norfolk and
Western people on this subject between those two dates,
Oetober 23rd and November 13?
i
A Specific dates ?
I
4 Yaa.
A No, air. Sir, I meant to taatify, and I
think I did vary olaarly, that betwean October 23rd and
Novembar 13 and 14, we talked to the carriers offica
and worked up this proposed agreement, and I thought I
mad# it clear that I mailed a oopy to Norfolk on Novembar
14 and want to Norfolk on November 15. is that what I
la that what you understood that I said?
TH4 COURT t That is what you said.
7C / '̂
said.
P. A. Hardin - Cross
, | ** WORTHUlCBrON:
2 H Specifying what I understood, I was trying
to get the dates.
, A i thought i testified that we art with the
carrier and tailed to them several tines, but I didn't i
.. hav* any apecific dates as to when we sat down.
* But Exhibit 20 which I shew you specifically,'
* flx** tw° d«X» that you spent on this, November 1 3 and 1
‘t November 14. You don't dispute those datest
10 A No, no.
u h Did you spend nore than two days on it?
I A I would say, yes. I an sure that we did.
|
12 ! Q How many more days?
j .
1 ! A * would have no idea because, as I said,
r, I was handling various other things, and the first time or
in | two that I talked to carrier officers they were reluctant
17 to talk about anything, and then during this process I know '
1- we talked to them before because one of the complaints dealt
i!( with assignments. And I asked the carrier officers if
:-11 th#P didn't agree to put a cartaln assignment procedura I
21 | back like the Barney Y»rd people wanted it. And they told
me no, that they wouldn't make up their minds whether they
1 wanted it or didn't want it, and they were not going to
2 1 change that. Apparently we didn't meet with them.
̂ 0n the subject of assignments, had not the
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?. A. Hardin - Croat 921
Barnay Yard people talced for regular aaslgnnanta prior to
November 196b?
A According to inf or mat Ion fur n la nod me, yea.
k And had not the carrier granted It?
i
A Apparently to, air.
4 Was not the requeat then In November 1968I
that thia previously granted assignment be resigned and the
old aystem restored?
A The way you explained it to at -- not you,
but the way the carrier officers, Nr. Lusk explained it to
oe, that would be the net result.
<* lid the carrier not then later a.jree to
restore the old system and do away with the aaalgnment?
A 1 truthfully do not know, air.
4 Do you remember discusslr- It, but you
don't know the ultimate result of thoae discussions?
A That la right, air. Aa I stated after
sometime in December, I have given this no further
handling.
h Now, I believe you testified also that in
your negotiations about the coming together of the Barney
Yard and the CT Yard rosters, that there was no mention
of dovetailingj is that correct?
A No mention of dovetailing between the Barney
Yard lodge officers, 550 officers, and Ift*. Lusk and I.
1L 3 au
P.A. Hardin - Cross
1 ^ I Juat want to Know if this re was ever any
mention of It by anybody?I
| j
i | A I believe I stated, to the best of my
, aeaory, we had no constructive communication In that regard.
It la entirely poealble and nay be probable Brother Rook or
Peanort or Haynes said, "Let's talk about dovetailing." It 1
■ay have been, but if they would I would have lansdlately
s discouraged It as being Impossible. so accordingly I do
9 I think that we gave It any consideration or even talkedJ |
in about it.
902
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h How about froa the carrier. Was any
suggestion of dovetailing from the carrier made?
A Its, sir. There was a suggestion about
dovetailing jaade over Hr. Nanette's signature, I
understand, to Mr. Lusk.
si And that was Juat before the conferences you
had about the topping and bottoming on the 13th of November !
and ltth of Moveaber, 1963) wasn't It?
A I don't know. I don't have a copy of that
latter and wasn't aware actually of the letter until laat
night. So I really -- I was aware of the fact that sow
dialogue, coaaunlcation or aoaethlng, had taken place
because 1 asked Nr. Parsons about it myself, and I also
asked Mr. Walker to furnish as a copy o f anything that the
j
carrier had proposed.
f. A. Hardin - Croat
4 Did you participate, Vbr. Hardin, in tta
negotiations with K k v leadU* to the January 1, W O
contract?
93*
A Mo, air. x think this it a revision of:
the present agreeaent with a new cover that broight It
up to date. But I was not Involved In that, sir.
<4 Now, Mr. Hardin, X think you also testified
that about two conditions or additions to the proposed
topping and bottoming of the Merger that H r. RookI
discussed with you. Do you recall your testlaony along
| that line?
A IBs, sir.
Q Mow, what. If anything, did you do about
trying to get these conditions accepted by 330, or N k W
| after they were node to you by Mr. Rock?
A When Hr. Rock and X discussed then on the
telephone about Movenber 23, X explained to Ik. Rock ny
personal opinion as to the Impossibility of addli* those
provisions without full general committoo action. And
X asked H r. Rock to continue to talk to his people and
explain to than, tell then what X had explained to hln,
in the hopes that they would nod ify, or we would cone
I to a meeting of the minds.
!
According to what H r. Rock told as on the
phone, the agreement of topping sad bottoming completely
7. A. Bardin - Cross 935
satisfied then, but after he carried it to the me cabers
j
they wanted these other two provisions, and I even
| suggested to Mr. Rook a guarantee for any days pay they
lost because the ship didn't come in. That was really the
answer to it. And that would have to be done through the
service of a Section VI notice and negotiations. To
discuss that approach — maybe we could do it that way.
Ihit I did not, in answer to your question,
i
specifically I did not go back to Lodge 550 or anybody
else, because shortly thereafter I was advised that any
agreement we aade would have nothing whatsoever to do with
1
the complaint, and it would be futile on our part to try
i
to resolve it because another group had taken it over, and
they would decide what was best for the people.
| 4 Let ae clarify this, M r . Hardin. I
think you say have testified about it already. But you
were trying -- I think you testified, to get the oonoern of j
Mr. Ro«k and 974 worked out without the necessity of filing |
a Section VI notice; is that correct?
A Tea, sir, the original.
h Now, at what point after these deternlnations
in 1963 did you conclude that you were not going to be able |
to resolve the matter without the necessity, if need be,
of a Section VI notice?
A I abandoned hope when the EEOC notified
.... ...— ....— ~i
'licit <1.
P. A. Hardla - Cross 936
j m that we couldn't settle it, i m that any agreement
I **“ * "• r* a0h,*<3 «o«Wn't ra.olva the dlaputa, and th.
| carrier's Propose M m w t «aa contlngant upon s.ttllng
tha sooplalnt. tha carrier certainly wantad to aatlafy
•njr oosplaint any group or people night have agalnat It.
So it wa ay opinion that It m i futile to pursue It any
further In v i e w of the s&oc tailing aa that we didn't
have tha right to aattla it, and etching aa did wouldn't
aattla It, that they had taken it over and thay would have
to settle it.
k 1 thLnk w ••Id this letter had bssn
brought to jour attention. This Is 31-9?
A Yes.
* Now, I think you have already testified,
Mr. Hardin, that you did have knowledge of this letter.
I think It was given to you by itr. Luaki la that oorreet?
A I had knowledge of the contents. I
truthfully didn't know It was In tha fora of a letter, but
I don't doubt It whatsoever.
Now, in your discussion with ambers of
974, did you ever tell any of then about the fact that
you had knowledge of such a letter?
4 No, air.
$ BE ITT ON t No further questions.
THB COUNTi All right. Anything further.
9*12
binding?
MR. HAYNES: Yea, sir.
F, HAYNES. called a* a witneaa by
and on behalf of kh( plaintiff, having bean prtvlomly
duly sworn, testified aa follow**
<» i
10
D22UECT EXAMUIAtlOK
l! BY MR. BALLEA:
Q Whan wara you hirad aa a Barnay lard
brckeaan, Nr. Haynaa?
j
A I waa hirad Juna 27, 19 6 1.
4 Ara you familiar with the factor* that go
into oonaldaration in the promotion of Barney Yard
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20
braiceman to tha Barney Yard conductor?
A Yea, 1 an.
* Would you vary briefly atata what thoaa
factor* ara.
A I thing tha moat deciding factor would ba
the demand for Barney Yard conductor* and, of courae,
behind that they have to tag* a teat of some type. I have
never taken it.
Ia aenlorlty a factor?
"7 L> %
A Yes, seniority hu a lot to do with it.
4 Hav# Y°u promoted to Barney yard
conductor, Mr. Haynes?
A No, i haven't.
4 Ar* P°u f«*iliar with the conductore who
woric presently in the Barney yard?
A Yea, I am.
4 Do you Know who is the youngest Barney
Yard conductor in teres of hire date as Barney yard
N* P. Haynes - Direct
A
Q
A
A
4
I believe it is Strainer Seith.
Do you know what his hiring date la?
3 oast lea in *5 5.
Do you know o. L. Turner?
Yea, I do.
Do you know when he was promoted to
Barney yard conductor?
A I think it was 1970. 1 an not sure.
<4 Do you know when he was hired as a Barney
Yard brakenan?
A About the sans tine, 1955.
4 1)0 H. R. Holly, k . K. Hunter,
Yes.
E. W. Hunt?
Are those nan Barney yard conductors?
A
Q
*. r. Htjois - pirNt
>w. they art.
.Jtt
conductor at appromlmately tte
to
time?
A Dm , they were.
Q Whet time that?
A 1970, around.
Q Whan wore thoaa men hired as Barney xard
a»n, braicemen?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
I would aay about the aaaa time, 1935.
Will you atato the raoo of thoao aan?
Those aan are black.
All?
All black.
With reapeot to the air hoae rule, Nr.
Xaynee, were you required by a written contract to perform
the dutlea listed under the air hose rule before Maroh 1,
1968?
A According to ay knowledge, no.
Q Were you required by your supervisors to
perform those duties?
A Tea, air, we were.
Q Did you in fact perform them?
*. WQRMDnrQNi Your Honor —
THE COURT! We have been through thla.
Somebody testified to all this, nr. Biller,
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N. P. Haynes - Llreot 945
ffll, BALLER: I hivf no furthsr questions
of this witness.
THE COURTi All right, sir. Any cross-
•semination.
No cross -examination. step down. Call
your next witness.
(Witness excused.)
*» PUTRBLL, celled as a witness by and
on behalf of the plaintiffs, being first duly sworn,
testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALLERl
Q Will you please state your nans and
address and indicate for the record your race.
A Edward L. Put re 11. 714 Portsnouth
Boulevard. Race, black.
* Where are you employed T
A Norfolk and western.
Q In what division?
A In the coal pier department as brckeaan.
4 ___ What was your Jiiring^ date in that Job 7 4
11ni u
A
Q
A
Q
conduotor?
A
<4
A
Q
date if u «
4
M» L. FttUtli - Dlrtct
eighth month, 1961.
Do you know the date?
Tha data was tha 30th.
That la August 30, 1961?
Tea.
Hava you been promoted to
946
Barney TUrd
Mo, I havan't.
Do you tenon William *. Thornton, jr. ?
Via, I do.
Do you Know approximately what hia hiring
Barney Yard baratcauan?
* l t « u u » 31»t of Misuat, op lot or a * of
September.
Q What yaar ?
A '61.
Q Do you know if ha has baan promoted to
Bamay Thrd conductor?
A No, he havan't.
MR. BALLS*, 1 have no furthsr questIona.
THS COURTt Any questions.
MR. WORZHIMQTOMt Mo questions.
HR. MOODY: Mo questions.
THE COURT: Step down.
(Witness excused.)
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would a lso say ; w ouldn't you, Mr. Dalton? I t was wary w all
thought out and shared a l o t o f m asoning dona by a b r i l l i a n t
j u r i s t .
Now, go ahead and t a l l me about i t .
MR. BELTON: I t c o u ld n 't come to th a t . Your
Honor, because I d o n 't know what evidence was in troduced.
Now, we w ill say there were two issu es th a t the
Court should decide in th is case, which the Court d id not
have to decide in the C & 0 case. That i s the reguest fo r
back pay which Is prayed fo r in the com plaint. And whether o r
no t i f the Court finds a v io la tio n o f T it le VII should th is
Court g ran t a t to rn e y 's fees.
I th in k . Your Honor, on the issu e o f a tto rn e y 's
fees the decision o f the Fourt C irc u it in Lee and Robinson
make our arguments, and I w ill d i r e c t ray argument to the back
pay claim .
Two th ings I w il l simply mention to the Court,
f i r s t o f a l l , brought to the a tte n tio n o f Judge Hoffman in
P r e t r ia l and a lso mentioned again a t the beginning o f the
t r i a l , th a t we would lik e to d ire c t our e f fo r ts in the t r i a l
on the issue o f back pay to p u ttin g on evidence showing th a t
th ere i s an economic lo s s . And i f the Court should find
th a t there is an economic lo ss which re su lted from the
p ra c tic e s of which the p la in t i f f s complain, then the Court
would hold a separa te hearing to determine th a t amount.
773a .
[by Mr. Bailer] 19
b r ie f ly s o m of the leg a l questions contained in i t .
My s ta r t in g po in t i s , I th ink , abso lu te ly the
same as the s ta r t in g po in t o f a l l these defendants in th is
case. That is the v as t importance o f s e n io r ity fo r a ra ilro a d
»an. Our p la in t i f f s share the defendan t's viow th a t s e n io r ity
is the most im portant term and condition and b e n e fit o f
employment for a ra ilro a d man. We subn it th e re fo re th a t the
Court nust recognise th is v i ta l r ig h t has to be assured to
s lacks as well as to whites so th a t they can enjoy the benefit!!
o f th e i r s e n io rity ju s t as whites have enjoyed the b e n e fits
o f th e i r own se n io r ity .
How, my p rin c ip a l po in t is th a t as e m atter o f
p ra c tic a l fa c t in th is s i tu a t io n , Barney Yard eaiployees can n o t,
given the conditions th a t p rev a il in the ra ilro a d in d u stry ,
end given the conditions th a t e x is t in the Norfolk Terminal,
go to work in the CT Yard a t the bottom o f the CT Yard ro s te r .
As a p ra c t ic a l m atter given a remedy o f topping end bottoming
| they must end w ill remain in the Barney Yard fo r the p resen t
wad fo r sometime in to the fu tu re . The fa c t th a t there
have been no changes under the old system in the p a s t, 1
th ink prevents an exact analogy to what would happen in the
fu tu re because with re sp ec t to CT Yard work, and in re la tio n
|
to the se n io rity p o s itio n o f p resen t CT Yard es*>ie./ee*,
topping and bottoming w ill put Barney Yard men in the
i
pos i t io n th a t they have previously been in . Which i s to eay
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that no matter what their seniority position In the Harney
Yar̂ ., they will bo last in e.o CT Yard after everyone who la
al ro ady the re.
For them to go into tiie CT Yard then under a
topping and bottoming order at the present time is like going
in as a new hire. They would have no seniority rights
vis-a—vis present CT Yard employees which can be exercised
in the CT Yard. Their only seniority rights would be back
in the Barney Yard. And their only new seniority rights
would be gained as against subsequent hirees. For them,
the price of working in the CT Yard would be that they forego
in their CT Yard work all the advantages of the seniority that
they have labored so hard over many years to build up in this
Barney Yard. These advantages, as Your Honor recognized in
the C 4 0 decision, are simply all that a railroad man has
to look forward to. He does not get an increase in pay except
as the union agreements gain an increase for everybody. But
he does through building up his seniority attain regularity
and certainty of work when there is any work to be had for
anyone in the yard. Ko obtains a certain security from
furlough and annulment, lie obtains preference as between
different shifts and different joh assignments within the
shift.
Under a topping and bottoming order as it ^ould
operate at the present time, and in the near future, as a
7 7 3 * -Z
practical matter, Barney Yard men would have none of these
advantages in the CT Yard.
Hr. Bock, for example, who has the advantages
of 24 years of seniority In the Barney Yard would have to
sacrifice these to go to work in the CT Yard. Under a topping
and bottonincr order he would not be a foreman as ha is in the
Barney Yard, but he would be a brakeman. He would not have
his present ability to choose between job assignments and
shifts. lie would not have any certainty of regular employment
from one day to the next, despite his 24 years.
Mr. Russell ’Talker testified at trial that one
of the advantages of his 14 years of working in the Barney
Yard was that he had a certain degree of choice between the
different jobs, and he enjoyed and benefited from the
opportunity to exercise that choice. Under a topping and
bottoming order he would have no choice in the CT Yard. Be
would be able- to work only when and if none of the CT Yard
employees, that is none of the ninety-seven per cent of the
white employees goes to work in a certain job, then it would
be open to Mr. Walker to choose that job.
Mr. Haynes and other witnesses testified that
finally after 10 years of work in the case of Mr. Haynes, he
had a certain security from extended furloughs, and fromi
very frequent furloughs. hut, of course, he would have: no
security of that ty»>e in the CT Yard under a topping and
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oottoming order. He would have only the possibility of j
returning to the barney Yard, which is, of course, what ho
han now, an'’ it does not r-'nresent any kind of remedy to him. j
My point is that these men cannot and will not
at the oresont time work in the CT Yard under the terras of
topping and bottoming settlement. For them at the present
time toprino and bottoming i3 an illusory remedy. Its only
effect is prosoective. Its only effect would be after a
certain number of years, and I am sure we are all aware in
the railroad context the number of years tends to be rather
extended. But after a certain number of years those seniority
rights granted through topping and bottoming would mature into
something which as a practical natter would be used to give
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these men a degree of choice that begins to parallel what they
exercised in the Barney Yard.
THE COURT: Well, your record reflects though
there was a thirteen per cent turnover in the two or three
years that were in observation in this case. I can't find,
if statistics proving your case are to be relied on,
Mr. Bailer, they are not going to take all these statistics
under such circumstances in 7 1/2 to 3 years. This would be
no problem at all.
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UR. 3ALLER. In 7 1/2 to 8 years we feel it
would be some problem. It would be lass of a ptoblera than it
is now, but it is obvious it would take another 7 1/2 to 3 yeajrs
7 75« - y
to movm up to a foreman's job, for example, for Mr. Rock who
is already a foreman in the Barney Yard, and *o on, it would
take another 7.
T5U! COURT: 1 purposely have not, and I an not
going to take the, whatever exhibit might illustrate the date
of seniority for Bamoy Yard men and date of seniority for
CT Yard men, and try* to see what affect a dovotailing would
nave as it moved black men down in seniority, or white men up
in seniority, because I ara not interested in black3 or whites
in the sense that I ought to be influenced one way or the
other with regard to it. But while you argue to me all of
the things that might affect Mr. Rock in a dovetailing
situation, in a topping and bottoming situation, Mr. Rock is
not the only person for whose benefit the suit is brought.
Mow, when you fit 353, if that is how many
white people, white br&kemen there are in the CT Yard into
138, or 139 in the Barney Yard, it just seems to me by force
of numbers black people would be injured more than white
people.
Now, if you can tell me I mb wrong I will be
glad to hoar it, Mr. Bailer.
MR. BALLER: Well, it is the position of our
plaintiffs, who, of course, represent the black people in the
Norfolk Terminal that they would not bo injured more theirs
white people. We accept that position and it is ours.
2 4
Mow, my principal point is, you know, I insist
that after 7 1/2 to 8 years under a tapping and bottoming
order that the jxjsition of the plaintiffsand their class would
be substantial1/ improved from what it would be given no
relief. But I also insist that they would not be returned to
taeir rightful place, and nore fundamentally — this is
secondary argument.
The primary argument with respect to the
topping and bottoming, they cannot be made to wait 7 1/2 or 8
years. The effect of topping and bottoning is to tack a
ninety per cent black line on the bottom of a ninety-seven
per cent white line.
THE COURT; And it works both ways. The white
on the bottom of the black line also. This is not a one-way
street.
MR. BALLER: That is correct. But if it is not
a one-way street the flow of traffic is much heavier in one
direction because as we have shown, the Barney Yard jobs are
inferior.
Mow, what the plaintiffs' demarv is their
rightful place, which is the theory all of these cases have
been decided under, and they demand it now. They dont demand
it in the future. In 1971, as we are now, the plaintiffs are
already 6 years removed from the date when, according to the
Civil Rights Act, they were told that discrimination i?&
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employment against them must cease.
Our plaintiff take e>e ;>ositio \ that having
waited 6 years and suffered 6 years of unlawful discrimination
they have a right to a full and effective decree which
will put them in their rightful place insofar as it is possible
now. riot in 7 or 8 years. That is the fundamental point
that I want to make with respect to topping and bottoming.
I
THF COURT: fell, I an not arguing with you
because I recognize the validity of your argument. There la
no other matter in the mind o^ the Court except that what is
done ought to be in accordance with the law, and to use an
old expression, fair, and it ought to be done now. But, I
cannot help but observe, Mr. Bailer, that if 130 black
seniority position, and 380 white, 330, i3 that is the number
I did have it hero in front of me when T wa3 reviewing this
in the past three or four day3. There is some seniority for
black people that ought to be protected just as the same
seniority ought to be protected for a white person. I don't
think that the color of the 3kin of the person having the
|
I
seniority is the natter that ought to be the determining
factor in any decision that the Court makes. And it is not
going to be.
?'P.. J3ALLER: We agree completely black seniority
should be protected and granted that seniority its full effect
as of hire date i s adequate protection for those black people
7 7 3 a - 7
in th e ir jol>8 and in the o ther jobs in the Terminal. All they j
want is to be able to enjoy the b en e fits o f th e i r h ire date
i t
s e n io r ity , and that'' is our nosition w ill adequately p ro te c t
then.
T T I T ? COURT: Well, lo t me — I an not arguing
with you. We are d iscussing a cotsnon problem. But w ithout
knowing, and w ithout for the moment considering what Robert
Rock’s date o f se n io rity i s , as opposed to any o th e r p a rso n 's
date o f s e n io r ity , l e t ' s assume for a minute th a t h ir in g in
the CT Yard on a date o f employment b a s is , th a t thore were
I50 white men who would have a s e n io r ity date o r lo r to th a t
o f Robert Rock. And I followed your advfc e and dovetailed
these two se n io r ity systems. And in doing so there fo re put
50 people above Robert Rock in a date of s e n io r i ty , and as a
re s u l t of i t Mr. Rock who has worked 35 years to gain the
po sitio n tha t he had o f being able to choose h is s h i f t and
to a f fe c t furloughs to him and re h ire s to him, is then put
back 50 numbers in lin e and has to take some job th a t he
otherw ise w ouldn't have. I c a n 't see th a t as a Court I am
accon^lishing the purpose of avoiding a problem th a t e x is ts
when you have two ro s te rs o* some ace.
*'R. BALLER: Of course, the 50 men in yoar
hypothetical would bo siTperior to him in s e n io r ity . They are
now holding jobs in the CT Yard, and I bet comparable o r
better jobs to Robert Rock , and he would then have the
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seniority to bid for those jobs if they chose to vacate jobs
and bid for his.
?r.r COURT: r can’t speculate 0:1 that. If
^0 jobs ran the day tine roster o* yardmaster' s jobs or
something out and put then in it, out in both yards, through
■
the foremen, through the yardmasters and got to the point of
*fluire Robert Pock was forced to work on Saturdays and Sundays,!
I would be doing hin a disservice. I ju3t think I would.
hr.. 13ALLER: But, as a matter of fact, the I
reason our plaintiffs are in this lawsuit, they feel their
protected seniority rights to eio3e Harney Yard jobs is not
worth as much to then as tueir right to compete on an equal
basis with the C T Yard employees *or all jobs in the Terminal.j
jThat is the position of tic plaintiffs. That is why they are
in the lawsuit. I think tiuy have supported this position
througnout the proceedings, and as their counsel I certainly
accept that evaluation. j
There is another point which I think that we are
over dramatizing, the effect that a dovetailing would have,
aod I would like to diecuss that. I think you can't separate
the inadequacy’ from topping and bottoming from the protective
features which would accompany a dovetailing plan and rake
feasible and also protect the legitimate interests of present
employees.
THE COURT: Homebody i3 going to be adversely
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affected no matter what system you use, as I see it,
Mr. Bailor, from about an R month study this. And where a
eysten --
adversely, no matter what system, and not white or black.
Just a seniority number. And under a system of topping and
bottoming, as you know, that I ordered in the C & 0 case, I
felt that then, and sc far T feel the same way, th a t I h av en 't
stud ied this particular case in this detail, th a t i f Robert
Rock, to use him as an example, m aintains h is p resen t
s e n io r ity in a yard, even if th a t in some manner i s in fe r io r ,
as you say it is, and at the sane time is qaining se n io rity
th a t is never going to do Robert Rock any good because Robert
Rock and I are going to be pushing up d a is ie s by the time th a t
this comes about. That is just by v ir tu e of h is age and mine.
You and Mr. Selton might be around. You look young enough.
But Mr. Rock and T are net.
Now, a t the same time we are not going about the
plan just at the top. This has got to be something th a t is
averaoed over the whole scale. And if Rock d o e sn 't get the
specific benefits of it, maybe number 9 5 down does. And any
order that is promulgated, as I see it, has got to be thought
of in the terms of how it affects everybody on the sca le .
Now, T am listerin " ' *
MR. 3ALLER: But not on the basis of race
THE COURT: Somebody is going to be affected
773a - to
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your argument, except by exchanges l ik e th is perhaps I gain
something out o f i t , as you might.
MR. BALLERt I f I can sum up, because I th ink
I
I fu lly presented our p o s itio n .
TOE COURT: All r ig h t .
MR. BALLBR: Mr. Rock deserves and demands
r e l i e f fo r h im self and not only fo r h is son. I t i s too late
to g ran t r e l i e f in an in ju n c tiv e sense to E se ll Johnson
because he has r e t i r e d a f te r su ffe rin g e f fe c ts o f discrim inate,
over a ca reer o f 35 y ea rs . We d o n 't th ink th a t should happen
to anyone e ls e .
We also want to po in t ou t in a l l o f the
d o v e ta ilin g type remedies ordered by the Court o f Appeals
th e re has been a no bumping p rov ision . Incumbent employees
are n o t, d esp ite the th e o re tic a l operation o f the merger, to
be d isp laced from th e i r p resen t jobs by tra n s fe re e s exerc ising
r ig h ts th a t were gained as p a r t o f the l i t i g a t io n .
S p e c if ic a lly w hite incumbents are not to be kicked out o f
th e i r p resen t jobs by blacks even i f the blacks may have
g re a te r plantw ise s e n io r ity .
The orders which have been en tered a f f e c t only
bidding fo r fu tu re vacancies and fo r promotiona. We th ink
th a t we recognize th a t th is would be a necessary p a r t as a
m atter of leg a l p r in c ip le of any d o v e ta ilin g o rder which the
Court might e n te r . I t was c e r ta in ly p a r t o f Local 199 *s ordei
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[by Mr. Worthington] < 55
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changed. So, Your Honor, they can't have It both ways. If
they want dovetailing hero hofore Your Honor, they cannot
claim in their brief, as they have, that the Railway Company
didn't really mean dovetailing when we offered it.
But all of that is asking Your Honor to take
documentary evidenoe which is uncontradicted and contradict
the plaintiff's documentary statement that they did not want
integration and then believe that the Railway Company didn't
mean it when they said in writing they would do it.
Bear in mind. Your Honor, this suit was brought,
and this is undisputed, before the plaintiffs evar knew
whether the Railway Company was willing to do anything or not,
because it was never communicated to them. And both the
plaintiffs who are named plaintiffs, who were witnesses, etatml
under oath they had never even heard that the Railway company
was agreeable to do that. Yet they come here. Your Honor,
and ask to convict the Railway Company of a violation of
Title VTI of the Civil Right* Act for failure to taka
affirmative action to integrate those rostere when they aaked
»» not to, and we communicated through channels we were willing
to. They sued us before we had any chance to even talk most
it.
Your Honor, I submit if there was aver a case
in which this defendant should be exonerated of any
intcftlonal, if that word still stays in the statute violation
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to
of equal employment opportunitiM, then thia is suoh a ease
where the Railway Company should be evonorated.
Mow, I would submit also that the plaintiff has
failed to prove that the Railway Company was guilty of any
particular act in which we discriminated against anyone
antlwly. They haven't brought a single person here that said
lie went to the CT Yard and was black and was refused employmen
when there were hiring opportunities there. They haven't
brought a single Instance since 1965 of anybody who is
eligible for promotion in either yard who was not promoted.
They have proven no segregation in the toilet or locker rooms
which they complained about, but haven't proven it. They
haven't proven any tests for employment. There are no tests
other than the police check and physical exam. They proved no
promotion tests that are not related to the job, such as
learning the safety rules which they are required to learn
under PBLA.
Now, Z would have to concede that as far as the
Railway Company is concerned, that the plaintiffs do show a
case if you work in the Barney Yard you do get furloughed
more often, and I think we have explained that is s perfectly
legitimate business incident, if there are no sales of ooal
and no ships to pick up the coal, there is no work for the
Barney Yard. On the other hand, I think Your Honor should be
aware in that connection, that by the choice of the plaintiff!
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through th e ir own union, they asked th a t th is e x tra board be
s e t up and th a t i t be cut bach. And the maintenance o f the
e x tra board does throw people ou t o f work. And th a t i s a w ell
documented and uncontradicted a f f e c t o f hawing the e x tra
board.
I would say a lso we have to concede th a t a man
who works in the Barney Yard i s no t going to be promoted on
le e e l o f promotion as frequen tly o r quickly as the
man in the CT Yard. I th ink th a t has been proven. The
s t a t i s t i c s , the o th e r methods o f proving we have to concede
they do. But I would suggest to Your Honor th a t s t a t i s t i c s
a lso show th a t a man who s t a r t s in the Barney Yard has got a
b e t t e r
ve,ry' **** much/chance o f g e ttin g to the second lev e l up to th<
ca r re ta rd e r op era to r than he does in the CT Yard because
f if te e n percent o f the black employees in the Barney Yard, o r
29 people out o f 196 are now ca r re ta rd e r o p e ra to rs , whereas
in the CT Yard there are only 23 ca r re ta rd e r operato rs ou t o f
421 employees, which i s only about s ix per cen t. So th a t a
black man in the Barney Yard has go t more than twice as good
a chance o f g e ttin g to the second lev e l as h is white
coun terpart in the CT Yard, so th a t th a t may not even balance
o u t. But i t c e r ta in ly takes some o f the s t in g ou t o f what
we have to concede. I t i s tru e th a t the promotion o p p o rtu n iti
are g re a te r in the CT Yard because you have sm eller crews.
You have got in tiie CT Yard, you have got one conductor and
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two brakemen. In the Barney Yard you have one foreman and
you might have up to 8 or 10 men working for him. You don't
need as many foremen.
I think there haa been aneoonoadc difference. I
think the CT Yard work haa expanded and the Barney Yard work
haa tended to decline slightly in recant years. But regardleei
of those things the Railway Company's position in this case
is we are willing to give the plaintiffs greater mobility, and
ee were willing to do it before they sued us. And we were
willing to do it before they even asked us to do it because
they kept saying we are not asking you to do it. And we in
October 1968 voluntarily at risk of the displeasure of the
labor unions, and you can be sure we did displease them, and
we offered to do it, and we have never backed off from that,
and we are still here today.
I would suggest also to Your Bonor that beyond
the lack of proof of violation of Title VII, beyond the lack
of proof of that the Railway has done nothing to discriminate
against its black employees, that we have taken affirmative
steps to try to eradicate any discriminatory affect of prior
practice preexiting 1965.
Now, I would call to Your Honor's attention the
testimony of the witness Class who was the superintendent in
the CT Yard that he had worked for two railroads before. And
at page 477 he was asked what responsibility did you have in
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your jo b fo r h i r in g b rak eaen in th e CT y ard jo b . Mr. Ola
answ ered ; "They a re h ire d th ro u g h ay o f f i c e . My c h ie f
c le r k g e n e ra l ly s c re e n s th e a p p l ic a n ts and aak es o u t th e
n e c e ssa ry p r e l i a i n a r y p ap e rs fo r th e h i r i n g , and a f t e r th
hawe passed th e n e c e s sa ry q u a l i f i c a t i o n s , " and so f o r t h .
And I w i l l skfc> s o m . T asked t h i s :
"Wow, s in c e you have been d is c h a rg in g t h i s
r e s p o n s i b i l i t y fo r th e f ta ilv ay Coapany, what o ccas
has a r i s e n where th e r e was one vacancy and th e r e
would be a w h ite a p p l ic a n t and a b la c k a p p l ic a n t
and th e r e would be any p re fe re n c e o v e r one o r th e
"A There have been none. I have had t h r
h i r in g e p iso d e s in 22 Months t h a t I have been h e re
and in a l l th r e e c a se s I had a u th o r i ty to h i r e 50
k ra k e a e n , and I f i l l e d t h i s a u th o r i ty a s th e y can
*0 Was th e r e any p re fe re n c e o f any w h ite
a p p l ic a n t o v e r any b la c k a p p l ic a n t?
"A Wo, s i r .
"Q What o c c a s io n , i f an y , have you had t«
encourage th e a p p l ic a t io n o f b lack a p p l ic a n ts in
th e CT Yard snce you have been th e re ?
"A W ell, I have re q u e s te d f ro a a co u p le o
ou r c o lo re d y ard b rak eaen to b r in g o r send soae of
t h e i r f r ie n d s who would aake a good ea p lo y e e in
fo r e a p lo v a e n t.
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0 Can you name tha employees, the black
employees that you asked to bring other black
employees or applicants?
"A Mr. Christian and Mr. Baker.
“0 What results have you received, if «n^,
from that request?
"A They have sent individuals to be
employed, and 1 believe I employed — it was either
two or three Mr. Baker sent, and I really don't know
how many Mr. Christian sent in."
So that here is the man that is in charge <>f
hiring in the CT Yard who says that since he has been here,
he has actively tried to recruit black apolicants, has
succeeded in recruiting them, and his testimony on fiat
was corroborated by the witness Baker who said that Mr.
Class asked him to bring people there, and he had brought
the® there. So we have affirmative action on the part of
hiring people in the CT Yard to promote the racial mix.
And we have the reaults achieved by that effort.
Again the witness Glass, page 510j
0 You say you have encouraged black
aoplicants to apply for CT jobs; is that correct?
"A Yes.
•0 Do you advertise for jobs in the CT Y^rd?
--------------- "A---MaJiave-advertised for jobs in local
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newspapers, yea, air. Loeal and aa far aa Riehaon
Roanoke. We have had ada in the newspapers
advertising for joba.
"Q Would that be your responsibility for
placing the ads?
"A Mo, air. That ad coaes out of the
Superintendent's office.
"0 When is the first tine that you know o
your own knowledge an ad placed for CT Yard workern
"A it was soaetiae in the year If70. it
coaea to ae now as either the first or aiddle part
of 1070. it is the firet and only tiae I have beej)
in Norfolk that an ad was placed. it has been
placed aany, aany tiaea throughout my career on
the railroad, but only once here."
So that I think that the evidence is per
fectly clear that they not only have sent word into the
black coaaunity looking for black people in the CT Yard,
and have gotten thea, but they have advertised in the
newspapers, although they have never done it before here,
as Your Honor knows. It has been a family thing.
We have evidence that is undisputed that t t L
-onpany at the beginning of the effectiveness of the Civil
Flights Act adopted a policy to abide by it, appointed Equ
gggloyae^j^pgr^unity Officer, and we have the advertis
that appeared in the Coapany aagasine that went out to all
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snployM t saying v« a n an aqual onployment employer and
in tand to abide by tho C iv il Rights Act so th a t any black
enployee who n ig h t want to t ra n s fe r to the CT Yard was
p e rfe c tly free to do so . Or i f he knew o f anyone th a t vented
employment w ith the Railroad they were p e rfe c tly free to ap p ly ,
There h a s n 't been a s in g le w itness here who sa id
he applied a t the CT Yard and was turned down because he was
b lack .
Now, X would submit a lso th a t s t a t i s t i c s which
have been used here to show th a t the yards are separa te would
a lso show th a t th e re has been progress sinoe 1965. And in
every year there has been p rog ress. There have been black
employees th a t have gone in to the CT Yard. There were only
th ree in the CT Yard on Ju ly 1 , 1965, and by the f i r s t o f
1971 th ere were 19 , which i s more than a s ix fo ld in c rease .
Mow, you can c a l l th a t tokenism, bu t the Railway
Company d o esn 't h ire and keep th a t many people in th a t leng th
° f time. Now, i f you are going to take a one dream world
wherein th e re i s an in s ta n t so lu tio n and te a r the whole
R ailroad down and s t a r t a l l over again , possib ly you could n ix
them instan taneously . But I submit over a period o f th a t time
increasing the black employees in the CT Yard s ix fo ld is
progress and not tokenism, and X submit a lso th a t during the
***• psriod o f time th a t the promotions in tho CT Yard were
opened up to the black employees. You only had th ree black
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employees in the CT Yard in 19( 5 , and nona o f than vara
suparviaory. But by 1971 twenty par cen t. One ou t o f f iv e
black employees w ith no aectaralated s e n io r ity ware now in
supervisory p o s itio n s . And by the same token the percentage
o f w hite employment in the Barney Yard has doifeled during th a t
sane period o f t in e , even w hile o v e ra ll employsmat was
d ec lin in g • So s t a t i s t i c s can t e l l you most anything you want#
depending on who i s reading then and how they are M anipulating
then . But 1 th ink the s t a t i s t i c s bear ou t the evidence th a t
the R ailroad Company brought here they have a ffirm a tiv e ly
t r ie d to implement equal employment fea tu res o f the C iv il
Rights Act# and hams accomplished the r e s u l t in th a t d ire c tio n
snd are headed in th a t d ire c tio n .
But we s t i l l g e t back to the Railway Company's
p o s itio n , and th a t i s we are agreeable to the merger to give
th* people m obility# and we were before we were sued# and we
s t i l l a re .
Now# th e re i s some claim we in some way are
responsib le fo r delay in g ran ting an a i r hose a rb it r a ry . Mow#
th a t has been argued in our b rie f# and fo r the sake o f time#
and th is being a supposed holiday# 1 w on't reargue that# bu t
merely c a ll to your a tte n tio n the fa c t th a t i t i s covered in
our b r ie f s ta r t in g a t page 38. And X w il l summarise i t in
th is way# Your Honor.
F irs t# we were no t asked to change the a i r hose
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THE COURT: II.
»!R. WORTHINGTON: Yes, II, end recites that
the Court, having found that this thing will take care of
it3clf, and having found there is no racial imbalance in
tiie overall work force in the combined yard, but only black
imbalance in the Barney Yard, and white imbalance in the
CT Yard, that we under the numbered paragraph of the decree,
under II, 1. we will cease forthwith hiring any yardmen in
the Norfolk Terminal by the nepotistic procedures and II.
"All hiring for Barney Yard and CT Yard
work shall be done through a single office, either
at the present Norfolk Terminal yard office or in
such other conveniently located facility/' for the
processing of job applications.
Then on the next page, third paragraph.
"In hiring new yardmen for these facilities .
Now, you can't, a3 we could demonstrate by a witness here
if we have to, you can't say that a man is going, an
is going into either yard, because if a vacancy
exists in the CT Yard, for instance, and the Railway Company
for evil purposes wanted to put a white man in, the Railroad
is powerless to do it because the vacancy doesn't really
exist in the CT Yard. If it is a desirable vacancy, like
water seeking its own level, the people in the Barney Yard
wao want to be rn the CT Yard can go over with a greater
■7 3 3*.
seniority than the new hire and they will do so, and
conversely the white people will go into the Barney Yard.
So that in hiring now yardmen for these facilities, the
Company will contact those agencies (Including the Virginia
State Employment Commission) and media in the Norfolk area
which are most likely to produce qualified black applicants
as well as qualified white applicants and will be likely to i
continue racial mix in a proportion comparable to that
previously found by the Court to exi9t. In furtherance of
\
good faith efforts to maintain such a racial mix, the Company
may elect to discontinue communication with particular
agencies and to substitute other agencies and/or engage in a
i
regular program of advertising in newspapers or other media
having general circulation in the black community as well a3
the white community in the Norfolk area. jI
We say about Your Honor's conclusion, this
is a self-regulating thing, and there is no need for elaborate
rigid type procedures, and that the proof of compliance will
be in the maintenance of the racial mix on these merged i
rosters. If you have got a proper portion of black employees
in tiie two yards combined with the merged rosters, that is
consistent with the population racial proportion, that
proves there is no discrimination in hiring because you cannot
place a new employee in a particular facility any longer. So
much for that.
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y
on the training and pronotior aspects
of it.
THE COURT: Wow, do me a favor. Let's do this
one thing at a tine. How about having a seat a second?
MR. WORTHINGTON: All right.
THE COURT: Now, the record reflects what
Mr. Worthington has said, and in fact what I alluded to in
the memorandum that when you have new hires coning in on a
single roster that the problem ought to relieve itself. Now,
in the C & O decree I found that it wasn't exactly apropos
to the problem here because there there was not only the
matter of the Barney Yard, and CT Yard, but it had to also
direct itself to the BRAC employees in Groups 1, 2 and 3
clerks. For that reason that decree did have considerable
detail in it, which for the most part was directed at the BRAC
situation as opposed to the Barney Yard classification yard
problem.
Now, in the proposal as made — you gentlemen
will have to hold on now because I am trying to loo}, at
three — as suggested by the Norfolk and Western for whom
Mr. Worthington just spoke, the hiring procedure does just
that, that he has quoted. The hiring portion of the decree
would be that that ho has just addressed himself to.
In the procedure as proposed by the Plaintiffs,
Rock and others, the only real difference I could find was
I
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( I MR. EELTCM: I don’t want to belabor the
| point, Your Honor. I think we set our position forth in the
| proposed decree, and I don’t think I could elaborate any
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further on the proposal that we submitted.
THE COURT: That was your best judgment on the
matter?
MR. BELTON: That is correct, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Nov/, I will sift all
that information. Mr. Worthington, what is next?
MR. WORTHINGTON: All right, sir. The second
item, Your Honor, relates to the training and promotion, and
I don't think that we are too far apart on that. T.iere is
one practical factor.
THE COURT: Which paragraph is this?
MR. WORTHINGTON: This is in the proposed
decree of the Norfolk and Western. This would be Paragraph
I C. It would be on page 2.
Let me back up for a moment and set it in
prospective. Our hiring procedure would guarantee, we submit,
that a new hire would go, whichever way the demand for
services would indicate without regard to race. So that v/xth
the process of time, beginning immediately, the new hires
would go indiscriminately into the Barney Yard or CT Yarc,
regardless of race. That leaves to be taken care of a group
of employees that are black that Your Honor has found are
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locked into the Burney Yard. And our provicions for giving
them. a chance to break out o f the Harney Yard and go to the
CT Yard are pretty much in continence with the pro ced u res
tiiat the Plaintiffs are asking for and that the Defendant
Union ag re e s to . We only have in that regard one natter of
significance. Bearing in mind that we have the responsibility
as a common carrier to run the railway and to run it safely
and to comply with the requirements of safety for the employees
under the Federal Employers Liability Act, and there is a
situation we have covered that takes care of the safety factor,
and we have a witness here, if need be, to substantiate this.
|To refresh Your Honor's recollection, the
procedure is that any Barney Yard employee who wants to go
over to the CT Yard and qualify as a conductor in the CT Yard,
which is a second range in the line of progression, is given
notice of an opportunity to take special training and to give
.what you might call super seniority as a conductor in the
CT Yard because when he passes the examination he will get
seniority.
THE COURT: As of his original date of hire.
MR. WORTHINGTQM: Yes, as of original date of
hire. This is what you call super seniority. We can live with
that. The Railroad Company doesn't care. But we are concerned
with these people getting the training and passing the exam.
Nov/, they have only had 90 hours training, some of them, in
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tiiU CT Yatti» ip. a d i f f e r e n t w orld from the 3 a r r e y Yard,
as !Ic" o r hc« fou n d , end I thin?: r i c h t l y ro . H- p asses
te.e e.-.am. 1 .:;̂ . i f J:o '..■on-!; to ■••.ork im m ediately an a co nduc to r
- ll th e Cx "Vc.ru, m t h a t in s ta n c e th e re would be no me r i s k ,
£inC we a rc no t too comfortable about p u t t i n g 2 man in charge
°* a t r a i n ert; after only CO hours o f work in t h i s very
com plica ted complex o f th re e yards and sc f o r th . 3u t to
accommodate th e Equal Employment O pportun ity Act req u irem en ts
t h a t th e se peop le be given an o p p o r tu n i ty , ve w i l l , w ith
a p p ro p r ia te s a fe g u a rd s , t r y to l i v e w ith t h a t p ro ced u re . But
tx e s i t u a t i o n a r i s e s where a man is in th e Barney Yard and he
has been there two y e a r s , which he has to b e , and he wants to
go o v e r and q u a l i f y ar conduc to r in th e CT Yard, and he goes
over and spends CO hours there and ta k es th e exam and p a sse s
i ^ . -low, th e re is no immediate need fo r h is s e r v ic e s as a
c o n d u c to r , even though he has passed t h i s c ra s h program to
q u a l i f y . He has h i s cho ice under th e merged r o s t e r o f s t a y in g
in th e CT Yard and working as a brakeman. But he may be
working n i g h t s , weekends, and l e s s r e g u la r ly i f he s ta y s in
th e CT Yard as ei brakeman as compared w ith going bac?< to th e
Barney Yard wnere he has c o t a daytime jo b , in d o o r s , w ith
cotter pay and sc fo r th than a h ig h e r rank v /a i t in g to ta k e th e
a ig h t .r rank m tu e CT Yard. fc he goes back to th e Barney
Vte.rc and sti ys tn e re as long as s i x months with no s e rv ic e in
t . . e c.y Y a r d a t a l l , o th e r than t h i s t r a i n i n g procram . And
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suddenly he in culled for the conductor's job, anu the
Railroad Company says tht.t it would be an extremely dangerous
tiling for such a nan to be put in charge of a train crev? -’ith
all the movements and requirements when he is rusty by six
months and never has had the real training which the evic'ance
shows is necessary for such an employee in the CT Yard.|
We have put in a requirement, proposed to the
Court at the top cf page 4, which is somewhat similar to the
transfer of brakemen from the Barney Yard to the CT Yard in
: language, s aying:
"In instances deemed necessary by it,
the Company may require brakemen so promoued, '
these are the Barney Yard brakemen who are promoted
after training, "to qualify for their first service
as CT Yard conductors, occurring more than six
iHi
17 j
months after promotion, only when such promoted
conductors have not worked as brakemen in the CT
l'' ! Yard since promotion, in which cases qualification
may consist of up to three months' service with
I'll pay as CT Yard brakemen."
We t̂ hink for safety reasons that requirement
• ’•>
Si
essential to the practical operation of the Railway Company,
and that is, I think, the only major difference we have oa
tiie .subject of training and promotion.
Tab COURT: Well, let’s see. In the various
period of three r-on ths and be otic? at the rate of a J rakc’.M
is that correct? 7h* n *)\ y thirio I question, Your lloncr, I
realise the Court . her and the Com any her, concern abt ct
safety, but X nj ""ply question the necessity for tnc three
months ncricd after he has qualified on the test, in light
of the testimony that was submitted to the Court in tern* of
a t l e a s t how th e re has been sor.c transferees bach and forthi |
, jjjbetweon the two yards. The safety factor I don't quarrel
j: , about. The Court has to be concerned about it. i
f! iTHE COURT: All right. Hr. Belton, in your
i ■ I
discussions with your associates, I am going to take some
notice of this. I may take the 100, the three months
I
qualifying provision as proposed to me, or 1 xoigut cut that
down. rtut in any event there is certain reasonableness tc
that argument.
MR. WORTHINGTON: We have, as we suggested
earlier, Mr. Glass who could explain the natters, but I an
sure Year Honor is familiar with the way a railroad works,
! from1
i
a W Sy
i
point
that
came
your own experience.
iTHE COURT: As somebody said, it is a hell of
to run a railroad. I remember that.
*-:R. WORTHINGTON: Now, the third and ia3t
vc have, Your Honor, is on the attorneys fees. I think
there is considerable divergence there. Your honor
in to try this case after some of the pretrial procedures
IN Till: IJNITliD STATUS DISTRICT COURT FOR
TIE I-ASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA
Norfolk Division
ROBERT ROCK, et al
)
vs- ) CIVIL ACTION No. 2 5 5 - 6 9 - N
)
THE NORFOLK AND WESTERN RAILROAD )
CERTIFICATE. OF THE CLERK
I, W. FARLEY POWERS, JR., Clerk of the United States
District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, do hereby
certify that the foregoing are the original papers and a true
record of the docket entries in the above-styled cause.
IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF I hereunto set my hand and affix
the seal of the said court, at Norfolk, in said district, this
29th day of June, 1972.
COMPANY, et al
W . FARLEY POWERS, JR., Clerk
Deputy Clerk