Evers v. Jackson Separate Municipal School District Transcript 1

Public Court Documents
May 18, 1964

Evers v. Jackson Separate Municipal School District Transcript 1 preview

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  • Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Evers v. Jackson Separate Municipal School District Transcript 1, 1964. 73d20f4e-b19a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/df5c8b3d-e3fa-465d-a071-7c18dcbd1ce7/evers-v-jackson-separate-municipal-school-district-transcript-1. Accessed July 11, 2025.

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ill rfiE UIOTED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR SHE SOOTHS® DISTRICT 

CF MISSISSIPPI, JACKSON DIVISION

’ ' W

darreil jffisxam evers and hsebe u e  evers,
alnars, fey MEDGAR V. EVERS and MRS. M&HLEE
B. EVERS, their parents and next friends, and
SHIRIESr D, BAILEX, VERHA A. BAILEY and 
53CMAS J. BAXLE5T, minors, by SAMOEL BAXLEY, 
taeir father and next frtrad,
«aa ' ” . ■
EAIOINE THOMAS and GAROEXH THOMAS, minors, by 
HRS. SASHECm THOMAS, their mother and next friend,

• m  i fc'ftfoy- lv. !vy'-:**
VIIUS H. LOGAN, minor, fey MRS, A. W, E. LOGAN, 
his mother and next friend,
and ____ ■ .
H1F2K JEROME SINGLETON, minor, by MRS. EDNA 
MARIS SIISHETOK, his mother and next friend, and ' ,,

ainor, by MRS. ELIZABETH WHITE, her mother and next friend,
. ■ , ■A/' . Plaintiffs,Versus
JACKSON MD3SICIPAL SEPARATE SCHOOL DISTRICT;, 
IQPJECT P, WALKER, Superintendent of Jackson 
City Schools) LESTER A1VIS, Chalnaan;
C. H, K2MG, Vice-Chairman) LAMAR NOBLE, 
Secretary) W, G* MIZE and J. V. UNDERWOOD, Members,

.Defendants,
U ' W  PRIMOS, CLAUDIA PRIM03 and GALE PRBIQS, 
minors, by ALECK PRIMQ0, their father next 
mend, and ALECK HOMOS, individually, and 
H i p E  &AX53E PIERCE PRIMQS, individually,
D02LE GOODMAN and GAYLE GOODMAN, minors, by 
JAMES GOCdSAN, their father and next friend, 
and JAMES GOOIMAN, individually, 
and

)

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Civil Action 
No< J?79

-■ :̂g"' Jiff* ’

1 *



ALEX LITTLE, JR., minor, by WILTON LITTLE, 
his father and next M e n d ,  and WU1TON LITTLE, 
individually, and MRS. WILTON LITTLE, individually, 
and
JOHN HAROLD SPEARS, minor, by MRS. JOY SPEARS, his 
mother and next friend, and MRS, JOT SPEARS, 
individually,

WILLIAM CHRISTOPHER SEXES, minor, by MRS. W. C.
SEXES, his mother and next M e n d ,  and MRS.
W. C. KEYES, individually, 
and
JAR CAROL HELLS and PARKER HELLS, minora, by 
CHARLES HILTS, their father and next friend and 
CHARLES KILLS, individually, and MRS. CHARLES HILLS, 
individually,
and
LDfDA HERRSN ERRINGTON and HOWARD ERRINGTON, minors, 
by MRS. JAMES ERRINGTON, their mother and next 
friend and MRS. JAMBS ERRIROTON,individually, 
and
TOM GATES, V. T. OATES, JR., and BEVERLY GATES, 
minors, by W. T. GATES, their father and next friend 
and W. T. OATES, individually, 
and
DANNY GATES, minor, by W. J. OATES, his father and next 
friend, and V. J. OATES, individually, and MRS. W. J, 
GATES, individually 
and
JCHHNY WALKER, CATHY WALKER and JIM WALKER, minors, 
by HIRAM WALKER, their father and next friend, and 
HIRAM WALKER, individually, and MRS. HIRAM WALKER, 
individually, 
and
HOWARD COON and SUSAN COON, minors, by EDWARD COON, 
their father and next friend, and EXWAKD COON, 
individually, and MRS. EDWARD COON, Individually, 
and
LYNN HUTCHENS and A1YCE HUTCHENS, minora, by MRS. 
MARJORIE HUTCHENS, mother and next friend, and 
MRS. MARJORIE HUTCHENS, individually,
and
SAMMY GARRETT and BETTY GARRETT, minors, by 
HOWARD GARRETT, their father and next friend,
AND HOWARD GARRETT, individually, and MRS. HOWARD
GARRETT, individually,
and



LENDA. PAYNE, minor, by HOYT PAYNE, her father 
and next friend, and HOYT PAYNE, individually, 
and MRS. HOYT PAYNE, individually,
and
MARGARET ANN WHITT and *0TH JIXELLE WHITT, 
minors, by J. A. WHITT, their father and next 
friend, and J, A . WHITT, individually, and 
MRS. J. A. WHITT, individually,
And
TOMMY CASE and PRANK CASE, minors, by PRANK CASE, 
their father and next friend, and FRANK CASE, 
Individually, and MRS. PRANK CASE, individually, 
and
JERRY LEA REYNOLDS, minor, by SEAB REYNOLDS, 
the father and next friend, and SEAB REYNOLDS, 
individually, and MRS. SEAB REYNOLDS, individually,

Interveners.

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APPEARANCES!
Honorable Derrick A. Bell, Jr., Attorney,

10 Columbus Circle, New York, 19, New York;
Honorable Jack Young, Attorney, 115i N. Ffcriah 

Street, Jackson, Mississippi;

For Plaintiffs.

Honorable Joe T. Patterson, Attorney General 
for State of Misaissippi, Jackson,
Mississippi;

Honorable Dugas Shands, Assistant Attorney General, 
Jackson, Mississippi;

Honorable Thomas H. Watkins, BOO Plaza Building, 
Jackson, Mississippi;

Honorable Robert C. Cannada, 700 Petroleum Building, 
Jackson, Mississippi;

For Defendants.

Honorable Dan H. Shell, 340 First National Bank 
Building, Jackson, Mississippi;

Honorable R. Carter Pittman, P. 0. Box 891,
Dalton, Georgia;

Honorable George Stephen Leonard, 1750 K Street NW, 
Washington, D. C.;

For Intervenors.



INDEX TO CIVIL ACTION NO. 3379 JACKSON DIVISIOW

WITNESSES Direct Cross
Examination Examination

FOR PLAINTIFF:
Samuel Bailey

Myrlie B. Evers 
Edna Marie Singleton 
Elizabeth White 
Kathryn Thomas 
Kirby P. Walker
aaitnTr

Joseph E. Barker

John Bell Williams 
James Gooden

Win. S. Milborne

Kirby P. Walker

7 (Deft.) 15
(intervr. )17

22 (Intervr. )24
28 (Deft) 32
34 (Deft) 36
38 (Deft) 41
44 (Deft) 87

(Deft) 90 
(Intervr)123

129
(Deft) 148
(intervr)159 
(Deft) 170

162
(Intorvr)178 
(Deft) 230
(Intervr) 269 274

Redirect
Examination

42
89

INTEHVENGR:
R. T. Osborne
Wm. S. Milborne (Recalled) 
Henry E. Garrett 
F. C. J. McGurk 
Ernest Van Den Haag 
Robert E. Kuttner 
Halford S. Whitaker

185
224
277
304
334
417
492

EXHIBITS

Plaintiffs No. 1 Interrogatories 45 
Plaintiff’s No. 2 Answer to Interrogatories 45 
Plaintiff’s Ho. 3 Ltr., 8/15/64, M. W. Evers 87 
Plaintiff’s kNo. 4 Anver to Interrogatories

in Civil Action 3312 Jackson 531

Defendant’s No. 1 Chart 93 
Defendant’s No. 2 Chart 95 
Defendant’s No. 3 Chart 98 
Defendant’s No. 4 Chart 101 
Defendant’s No. 5 Chart 103 
Defendant’s No. 6 Chart 104



Exhibits:

INDEX Continued
Civil Action No. 3379

Defendant * s No. 7 Chart 106
Defendant’s No. 8 Chart 108
Defendant’s No. 9 Chart 110
Defendant1s No, 10 Chart 112
Defendant's No. 11 Chart 114
Defendant's No. 12 Chart 115
Defendant's No. 13 Chart 116
Defendant's No. 14 Chart 117
Defendant'a No, 15 Chart 118
Defendant's No. 16 Chart 119
Defendant's No. 17 Chart 120
Defends*'s No. 18 Chart 121
Defendant's No. 19 Chart 122
Defendant's No. 20 'Investigation of Public School

Conditions," Report of Sub-
comnittee, 84th Congress,
2nd Session 133

Intervenor's No. 1 Qualifications, Dr* R. T»
Osborne, with attaohements 186

Intervenor's No. 2 Monograph by R. T. Osborne 189
Intervenor's No. 3

Intervener1* No* 4

Defendant*s No, 21 
Defendantss No, 22 
Defendant*a No* 23 i

Intervenor’a No* 5

Intervener*s No, 6

Intervenor*s No, 7

Intervener*s No. 8

Intervenor'e No. 9

Intervenor’s No, 10

Intervener*a No. 11

and Achievement of Negro Elementary School 
Children in Southeastern United 
Stat®3"
Article from NEW YOHJI TIMES

201
218

Book by M* V. 0 sShea
Chart
Chart

234
262
264

Qualifications, Dr. H. E.
Oarrett
"The 3PSSI &  Racial 
Differences"
2 pps. from THE MANKIND 
QUARTERLY, Apr11-June *64 
Qualifications, Dr. P.C.J,
McGurk
5 pps. from U.S, NEWS & WORLD 
REPORT
"Negro vs. White Intelligence - 
An Answer" 332
Qualifications, Dr. Ernest Van 
den Haag 336

279

293
294 

305 
330



INDEX continued
Civil Action lto. 3379

Intervener's No. 12

Intervener's No. 13
Intervener's No. 14
Intervener's No. 16
Intervener's No. 16

Intervener's No. 17
Xnfcervenor'a No. 18

Intervener*a No. 19
Intervener's Nb. 20
Intervener’s No. 21

Intervenor's No. 22

Intervener's Ho. 25

Intervenor's Mo* 24

Intervener's No. 25 
Intervener's Ho. 26 
Intervener's No. 27-a

Intervencap's No. 27 *b

Qualifications, Dr. R. £.
KUttner 4l8
"The Inheritance of Mental 
Ability”
"Twins Brought up Apart"
"The Inheritance and Nature 
of Extraveraion" 444
"The Herldltary Abilities 
Study* Herldltary Components in 
a Psychological Test Battery” 447 
26-page article from 
FEELDIANA 472
Pig. 1 and articles from 
SCIENCE 477
"Amentia in the East African" 478 
"Human Genetics" 479
r*Hhe ftwaf n of the Kenya 
Native" 484
"Brain of the East African 
Native” 489
Excerpts from Transcript of 
Proceedings, Civil Action 
NO. 2316, Southern District
of Georgia 
Qualifications, Dr. H. S. 
Whitaker
Sample EEG-. child 
Sample EEG, adult 
"Introduction to Study of 
Electrophysiology of the 
African Negro,” English 
translation
Same as above, in French

495

494
497
497

504
504

* * * * *



2

BE IT REMEMBERED that on the l8th day of May, 1964, there 

came on for hearing at Jackson, Mlsaleslppl, in the Jackson 

Division of this Court, before the Honorable S. C. Mize, 

United States District Judge for the Southern District of 

Mississippi, the above-styled and numbered cause,and 

the following proceedings were had and entered of record, 

to-witi

THE COORTx I don't believe these cases have been 

consolidated, but as I recall it, it was agreed that all 

the evldenoe that is to be taken in this case, so far 

as Is relevant, relevant to the Issues In the other 

two cases, would be considered as a part of the evi­

dence In each one of those cases. Is that the under­

standing?

MR, HELL: Yes, sir.

MR. WATKINS: Yea, sir.

MR. BELLt Yes, Your Honor. I had not understood 

that the three cases had been consolidated, and were 

going to be heard one after the other, and It would be

agreeable with us to have the Biloxi case follow the 

Leake County case here In Jackson rather than in Biloxi. 

THE COURT: And all the evidence, aa far as applicable ,



2
then apply to all three cases*

HR. BELLt Yes, sir.

MR. WATKINS: Yes, sir, that la all right.

MR. SHELL: I would like to present two attorneys who are

not members of this bar and ask that they be permitted 

to participate In this case: Mr. George Stephen Leonard

of the Washington Bar, and Mr. Carter Pittman from the 

Dalton, Georgia, Bar.

THE COURTl Very well.
MR. SHELL* I hare filed a motion to add intervener 

parties. It does not ask for any delay, merely names 

additional lntervenors and requests that they be allowed 

to come In and adopt the answer of the lntervenors already 

filed In the lawsuit.
MR. BEIL: We would make the same objection to this

motion as we made originally to the motion to Intervene 

for the same reasons we gave there.

THE COURT: I will overrule the motion and let the

—  overrule the petition for additional lntervenors 

and let it be filed.
MR. SHELL: I have the order, If Your Honor would

like It now.
THE COURT: All right.

MR. SHELL: It has been called to my attention that

you overruled the motion. I think you meant overrule

counsel's objection



THE COURTi Yes, for the seme reasons I gave In
overruling the original objections.

What a&ys the plaintiff In this case?

MR. BELL: We should like to make a very short and 

brief opening statement.

THE COURT: Are you ready?

MR. BELL: We are ready.
THE C<XJRT: What says the defendant?

MR. WATKINS: Jackson School District and the Biloxi

School District are ready.

MR. SHELL: The interveners are ready.

MR. J. E. SMITH: Leake County School Board is ready.

THE COURT: What about BllOxi?

MR. WATOKS: Biloxi is ready.

MR. HELL: The plaintiffs feel that the coming to trial

today of these cases Is rather an historic day for Mississippi 

and ve feel, also, that the trial date, May 18, Is also 

significant because It vat Just ten years ago yesterday.

May 17, that the United States Supreme Court handed down Its 

decision In Brown vs* Board of Education, which for the very 

first time faoed the Issue: Doest segregation of children 

In public schools solely on the basis of race, even though 

the physical facilities and other tangible factors may be 

equal, deprive the children of the minority group of equal 

educational opportunities?



Paced vtth this qimetion, the Supreme Court handed 

down the answer) "We believe it does. We conclude 

that in the field of public education the doctrine of 

'separate but equal'has no place. Separate educational 

facilities are inherently unequal.v

I think the significance of today's date la not 

simply historical. Since the desegregation decision in 

1954 there has been a great deal of desegregated facili­

ties other than public schools, all of such desegregation 

coming about based upon the decision Brown versus Board of 

Education. This has occurred in every state, desegregation 

in public transportation, libraries, courthouses, recreational 

facilities, hospitals and many others. In Mississippi, based 

on the Brown decision, there has come about desegregation in 

the transportation facilities, at the University of Mississippi 

and in the library and recreational facilities here in Jackson. 

All of this followed the repudiation of the earlier Pleasy 

v. Ferguson doctrine that separate could be equal, and all 

came about under the decision in Brown v. Board of Education.

When we come to the fact of schools, we see also that 

there has been sene desegregation in every state except 

Mississippi. In accomplishing this, there has been a great 

deal of litigation over thelast ten years. There have been 

at least two hundred cases all aimed at desegregating school 

districts. It is no secret, I don't think, that the SAACP



has supplied the lawyers in virtually all of these cases, 

and In the course of taking these cases through the 

courts we have been faced with every possible Issue 

involving desegregation and every reason has been given 

as to why desegregation orders should not be entered.

All issues, I indicate, have been raised, including those 

raised by the defendants here. Our arguments to the 

Court, or our briefs, will be based on our decisions, and 

we. promise the Court we will give it the benefit of all the 

expertise ve had in this field in our arguments and briefs 

and presentations.

What do the plaintiffs hope to prove in this trial?

Ve hope, of course, to indicate and prove the allegations 

of our complaint, that the plaintiffs are proper parties 

to bring this suit, that they are entitled to represent 

not only themselves but the class they represent, of all 

Hegro parties and children. We hope to be able to show that 

the schools in the City of JackBon and in other situations 

are in truth segregated and because of this segregation the 

plaintiffs are entitled to the relief which they pray for 

here. We in short hope to show to the Court that the 

plaintiffs are entitled to the injunction that they seek 

in the complaint, making final what this Court has already 

ordered by preliminary injunction the defendants to do, 

and that is to eliminate race as a criteria for pupils and



teachers in the operation of the Jackson schools*

Shank you, Your Honor, We are prepared to call our 

first witness. We call Samuel Bailey.

SHE COURT: Let all the witnesses come around and be

sworn at one time.
■ . ‘ • *V

(All witnesses were duly sworn)

SAMUEL BAILEY, called as a witness and having been duly sworn, 

testified as followsi
DIRECT EXAMINATION

By MR. BELL:
Q. Will you state your full name, please?

A. My name Is Samuel Bailey.

Q. Residence?
A. 1502 Florence Avenue#

Q. Where is that?

A# Out in West Jackson.

Q. How long have you lived in Jackson?

A* Twenty-three years.
Q,. How long have you lived in Mississippi?

A. Forty years.

Q,. And your race?

A. American Negro.

Q. Where are you employed, Mr. Bailey?

A* Assistant manager for the Universal U f a  Insurance Company.



8
Q.
A.

Q*
A.

Q.
A,

Q-
A.

Q.
A.

Q.
A.

A.

Q.
A.

A*

Q.
A.

Q.
A.

Q-

Where is that located?

1072 lynch Street.

Is that In Jackson?

Jackson, Mississippi.

Is that a Negro Insurance company?
.

Negro insurance company.

Do you have any children?

I have three children.
Are any of them presently attending the Jackson schools?

1 have two.
What are their names and ages and what grades?yj *
Verna A* Bailey, 11th grade, and Thomas James Bailey, 10th 

grade.
Where are they attending school?

Jim Hill Senior High,

What is that?

Jim Hill High School.

Is this a  Negro school?

A Negro school.

Are there any white people there, to your knowledge?

NOt to wy knowledge.
White teachers or professional faculty there?

None to my knowledge.
Are you satisfied or dissatisfied with this arrangement 

of the school to which your children are assigned?



9
A* I am dissatisfied.

Q. Have you ever made any effort to contact the School Board 

concerning your dissatisfaction?

A. Yes. In 1955 we filed a petition to the Jackson School 
Board.

Q. Who is "ve"?

A.

A.

Q.

Some parents and myself and about 75 or 80 parents.

All Negro., to your knowledge?

All Negroes, to wy knowledge,

Did you receive any response from the school board at that
time?

Never received a reply from the school board.

Do you know whether or not the Board received your petition? 

I am positive they did. We had a registered receipt, with 

a return receipt signed.

Was there any other response to your petition?

Nbt by the school board.

Was there any other response by anyone?

Well, the newspaper picked it up, and the name and address, 

where each person worked that signed the petition, and the 

pressure cam and a whole lot of the parents had to withdraw 
their names.

MR. WATKINS* If it please the Court, we object to that. 

That la a conclusion on the part of the witness, and we 

object to his testifying with respect to an alleged petition. 

The petition would be the best evidence.



10
MR. BELL: Your Honor* wo would say we are not

introducing the testimony to show the truth of the 

matter* in the petition. The only truth we are trying 

to Indicate is that he had made an attempt to contact the. - •' ■ . ' . .t' i . 5 ' *
r. . i  v ; w \ ./* t {  ̂ >• V. L;

Board concerning hia grievances at an early date and 

received no response. It has nothing to do with what was in

the petition.

MR. WATKINS: Your Honor, he made the statement that

pressure was brought on certain petitioners and they dropped 

their names. That is a conclusion on the part of this 

witness.

THE COURT* Yes, unless he knows of his own personal 

knowledge, I would not take that into consideration.

MR. KELL: let me rephrase the question.

MR. WATKINS: Excuse me. Counsel has said that he is

not trying to prove the petition by this witness, and we move 

to exclude all the testimony of this witness with reference

to the petition.

THE COURT: I will overrule that objection. Of course,

the petition would be the best evidence of what it con­

tained, but the fact it was filed, and so forth, I think 

i* competentj so I overrule the objection.

Are you a member of the NAAOP?

MR. WATKINS* Excuse me, Counsel. Your Honor, I have



11

to make another objection on this point.

There is a petition mentioned in the pleadings, bat 

It was a petition long after 1955. There is no petition 

in the pleadings involving an alleged 1955 occurrence 

about which this witness is testifying, so we strenuously 

object to any evidence with reference to that petition which is

not produced, neither have there been any pleadings In con­

nection with It, and it is a  brand new issue that is being 

attempted to be Injected.

THE COCfRT: Overrule the objection. I think the issue

is whether or not there is any discrimination because of the 

race, and the fact that he filed a petition with the school 

board is competent evidence —  that an application waa made

to the school board. As to the contents of it, the document 

Itself would be the best evidence of the contents, but the 

fact that it was filed is I think competent. I adhere to 

my ruling, and you may have a standing objection to any 

questions along that line, and it la overruled.

Were you a member of the HAACP in 1955?

I waa.

Were you an officer of the organisation at that time?' , t ii »
I was an officer.

To your knowledge, were many or moat of the persona who 

signed this 1955 petition members of the HAACP?

To my knowledge, most of them was.

How, if any of those persons received responses, was it or



not their duty to report It to you as an officer 

of the NAACP?

12

A, That's correct.

Q. Did you receive such reports?

A. I received several reports and several came to the office

to remove their nawa. • •
ME. VATKUB: We object to that as hearsay, what this

man was told.

THE COCOT: Sustain the objection to the report he

received. Anything he knave of his cum knowledge he can 

testify to. Anything anybody said would be hearsay.

ME. HELL: I think there Is an exception to the hearsay

rule to the effect that aa an officer of the organisation 

he can testify to the reports he received. Now, of course, 

that would not be competent as to the truth of the reports, 

but as to the fact that he was In this position and did 

receive reports, I believe the law is fairly clear he would 

be able —  and it would be competent to the fact that 

having helped obtain the signatures, having forwarded the 

petition, that he did receive reports from soots of the 

signers, as to what those reports were.

THE Bwfi* I will sustain the objection and exclude

it from consideration, but if you want to build the record 

on it further, you may do so. I think the reports would 

be hearsay and the best evidence would be the witness who



13

made the reports, so I will exclude tt from consideration, 

but it vill remain in the record as your offer of proof.

VR. BELL: All rt#it. We vill make a simple offer

under Rule kj to the effect that if he had been permitted 

to testify his testimony vould be to the effect he did 

receive reports from soma of the signers and they had 

received phone calls and things from their employers to 

the effect they should withdrew, and as a matter of fact 

many did request their names be withdrawn from the petition. 

That would be the testimony.

THE COURT: Very veil.

Q. How, Did you ever make any subsequent proteat to the Board 

of Education here in Jackson?

A. In 1962 in August ve filed a  petition again to the school 

board.

Q. What was the result of this petition?

A. Hever had any reply from that petition.

Q. Are you a plaintiff In this suit?

A, I am.

On whose behalf do you sue?

A. I represent the parents of my children and all the children 
in the state.

Q. What do you hope to obtain by this suit?

A. A better education for all citizens of Jackson, not only 

Hegroes but white too.



14

Q. How Is tills going to be done?
A. The kids can grow up together and they'd know each other 

better, and when they get grown they won't have the hatred 

that is building In the state today. The kids can play in the 

yard together now, five or six years old, and you never hear 

any race hate, but If they grow older then the race hate will 

cone. But by being In school together, It would help every­

body In the State of Mississippi and America too to 

desegregate the public schools, ttiey'd know each other 

better. They'd be athletes, learn each other.

After they graduate they are brothers, but they wait until 

they're out of college to know each other and hatred has 

built up so bad in the South It makes It a bad thing.

Cj. Were you ever advised by the Board of your right to 

request a transfer of your child to the white school?

A. Never have.
Q. If you had made such a request and It had been granted, would 

you then be satisfied as far as this school Is concerned?

MR* WATKINS* We object to that as a hypothetical 

question. There Is no basis In fact. Be la asking whether 

he would have been satisfied If he had done something he 

didn't do.
THE COURTi I will overrule the objection.

Q. Go ahead.

A. No, I wouldn't be satisfied If they Just let one of my kids



in because he would be under such pressure. The only 

setts fact ton would be if every American be entered into 

the public school of his choice.

MR. BELL? Ve have no further questions.

CROSS EXAMINATION

HT MR. WATKINSs
Q,. I believe you stated thatyour business was that of an 

insurance company?

A. That is correct.

Q. What position do you hold with it?

A. Assistant manager for the Universal Life Insurance Company 

Q. I believe you stated it was a Negro insurance company?

A. I didn't say "Nlgrah." I said "Negro insurance company." 

Q. Are all of the policy holders Negroes?

A. No, I don't think I could make that true statement, 

because we are out of California.

Q. Are all of the policy holders in Mississippi Negroes?

A. As far as I know of.

Q. Are all of the agents in Mississippi Negroes?

A. That la correct.

Q. Are all of the officers in Mississippi Negroes?

A. That is correct.

Q. And are all of the employees in Mississippi Negroes?

A. That is correct.



16

Q. I believe you also stated that you were a member and officer

of the NAACP?

A. That Is correct.
Q. And you know of your om  personal knowledge, don't you, that 

the NAACP brought this lawsuit?

A. Ihat is correct.

Q. They suggested It and financed It, didn't they?

A. They ditto*t suggest It. They financed It. We suggested 

and they financed.

Q. What promises have they made to the parents of the students who 

appear as plaintiffs In the suit?

A. Rephrase that.

Q. What premises have they made to the parents who appear as 

plaintiffs In this lawsuit?

A. No promise to me.

Q. What cash remuneration have they paid to the parents of the 

plaintiffs in this lawsuit?

A. I can speak only for myself. None to oqrself.

Q. Nov, you seem to know a lot about what the others do and 

say on other matters. Don't you know about that?

A. I don't know about that.

Q. Just who do you represent In this lawsuit?

A. At the beginning I represented Shirley Bailey, Thomas James 

Bailey, Verna A. Bailey, and all the Negroes in the Jackson 

School District.



IT
HR. WATKUBi I believe that la all. 

THE COURT» Any redirect?

MR. BELLi No, air.
THE CODRTi Any questions by any of the other defendants? 

MR. SHELLs We'd like to aak some questions.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. limKBDi
You stated the purpose of this ault was your hope to obtain 

a better education fen* all children?

A. That la correct.
Q. And you stated that you believed that this could be accom­

plished by mixing the ohildren in aahoola?

A. That's correct.
What la your basis for that?

The basis of that is In the other states it works so well.

I travel over different states, not only Mississippi.

Q. Where has it worked so well?

A. Worked in Tennessee; worked In Georgia; didn't work too

well In Alabama, but I think they only have eleven down 

there. It worked in Missouri, it worked in Kansas; it

worked ----

Q. Now, when you say it "worked,” what do you mean?

A. The kids, they are desegregated without any fanfare.

Q. You said a better education. What have you done to find out 

whether they are getting a better education? This Is your



statement.
18

A. Well, X have three kids In school, and the curriculum is 

just not there.

Q. Are you complaining that the Negro schools in Jackson, 

Mississippi, then are inferior to the white schools?

A. That is right*

Q,. I thought you were claiming that unless they were mixed 

they were inferior Is it simply your claim that they are 

a different school and that they are inferior?

A* They ere a different school.

Q. And this would be cured if you mixed the two together?

A, Not all, but it would be approximately 95 percent better.

Q. Now, tell me, seriously: If It could be shown in this suit

In this case that your three children could be educated 

better in a separate school, which would you want —  & 

mixed school or a separate school?

A. I always want a mixed school.

Q. You don’t care whether they get a better education or not in a 

separate school?

A. You can't get a  better education in a separate school*

Q. Do you have any basis for making that statement? Do you 

have any educational background?

A. The facts and figures show that on the average, per ratio, 

the Negro kid Is two or three years behind the whites*



19

Q. Ia that true when they start In school?

A, I do n’t know about the start, the first grade.

Q. Well, vould you accept the figures that show that they

start about the sane and that they drop back slowly, and

that they do this In mixed schools as veil as separate?

MR. HELL: Your Honor, ve're going to have plenty of 

testimony on this. I think our witness has given his opinion 

as to why he wants to desegregate, and I don’t think he 

should be subjected to all the details, figures and statistics 

that he can't possibly have knowledge of and that counsel 

for defendant certainly does.

THE COURT: Overrule the objection. He la on cross

examination.

NR. IEQHAHD: The door was opened by requesting his

opinion, to which no objection was made, '

Q. How, you stated the children play together until they get to 

be five or six?

A. That * s correct.

Q. And that after that they tend to drift apart and play 

separately? \

A. That's correct.

Q,. And what do you blame this on?

A. Could be on the parents, teachers.

Q. You don't think It could be on nature?

A 0 I don't think it's on nature.

' • Vi V l r f c  * s, . A;' ' A ■' V



20

Q. Do you have any basla for saying that?

A* I grew up with white kids, and swam together, Ve was 19 

or 20 and ve didn't have any race difference. That vas 

In the ?0*b . We swam, boxed, fight, and the parents didn’t 

get mad. When we had a fight, it vas all over it.

Q. That *s ri#it, but when you got up on the stand and you were 

asked your race, you said you were an American Negro. Right?
A. Right.

Q. You are perfectly conscious of that. Right?
A. Rigit.

Q. You are not ashamed of it, are you?

A. Never will be*

Q. All right* And all that time you were playing, you were 

perfectly conscious of the fact there were white boys and 

there were Negro boys?

A. That's r±j£it.

Q.. Ne one had to be better than the other. Right?

A. Oh, no. No one would be better.

Q. All right. Nov, answer me then what you said that this 

whole country would be improved by putting these children 

together. I just want to know why you say this if it Isn't 

your own feeling about it.

A. Well, what I said, If all the nations in the TJ. N., that is the 

only thing they can fight, the discrimination in the Waited 

States. When an ambassador goes from America to foreign 

countries, they have a problem on race. You say, why? What



la the reason? The reason ts because we practice discrimina­

tion against our people. Most of the people of the age
in Africa --

Q. Veil, you*re talking about adults. We are here talking about 

children.

A. That's right.

Q. We're not talking now about the recognition legally and 

politically and otherwise of adults. We're here talking 

about the education of schools. Is that your understanding of 

this ease?

A* That's right. .
Q,. You are not here trying to remedy the political rights of any 

adult in Mississippi?

A. No, I'm not trying to do that.

Q. You are here trying to get the best education for the 

children?

A. That's aorrect.
Q. And if I can show you during the course of this case that 

twenty times as many children from southern separate 

schools can go to college and succeed as go from the mixed 

schools in the north, would It change your opinion?

A. No, it wouldn't change my opinion. ,

Q. Thank you. That is all the questions.

MR. BSLLt No further questions, Your Honor.

(Witness excused)



MYTrr.Tr: B. EVERS, called as a witness and haring been duly 

sworn, testified as followsi
DIRECT E X A M M S I C W

m  MR. HELL:

Q. State your full nans?

A. Mrs. Myrlie B. Evers.

Q. You are a resident of Jackson?

A. I am.
Q. In the State of Mississippi?

A. Yes.
q . How long hare you been a resident of the State of Mississippi? 

A. I have been a resident of this state all of my life, thirty- 

one years.

Q. Do you have any children?

A. I have three.

Q,. Where are they attending school?

A. Two are attending school at Christ the King on lynch Street.

Q. is thia a Catholic school?

A* It Is.
Q. And It is not a part of the public school system. Is that 

right?

A. It is not.
Q. Under what circumstances, If any, would you be willing to send 

your children to the public schools of Jackson?

A. I would be willing to send my children to the public schools 

of Jackson provided they were desegregated.



Q. Have you ever 

segregations’

25
made a protest to the Jackson School Board about

A.

Q.

A  protest was made In the year 1962 in the form of a petition. 

D  id you sign that petition?

I did not.

Did you receive any advice from the board that you could apply 

for transfers for your children?

1 did not.

Are you a plaintiff in this suit?

X am*

Why are you a plaintiff in this suit?

X am a plaintiff in this suit. X entered as a plaintiff in this

suit vith my deceased husband, Medgar Evers. We ore both» *.
native MlsstBBippiaas. We grew up and were schooled in seg­

regated schools. Be felt and I now feel, as X have always felt 

that segregation is wrong! and since we are native Mlsslssippiaos 

and since the Supreme Court ruled that segregation was illegal 

we took it upon ourselves to try to play a part in righting 

this wrong. We entered this suit, not only for my children, 

but for all of the children In the City of Jackson, all of the 

Negro children la the City of Jackson. As I said, I feel 

that it Is wrong. I feel that the children do not receive 

the type of education that they could receive in & desegre­

gated school system. X feel that they ere also psychologically



damaged by attending separate schools. This, among some 

©there, is my reason for being a plaintiff In this suit. 

MR. SELL: No further questions.

MR. WATKINS: No questions from us*

CROSS EXAMINATION

MR. LEONARD*

Mrs. Evers, I ’d Just like to go to one portion of your 

testimony.

You say you feel the children would be better educated 
If the schools were mixed.

MR. BEIL; I think the statement she made was the statement 

of the other witness. It was not the use of the tens 

"mixed.” I don’t think the word "mixed'' appears In our

complaint any place, and I think the complaint that our 

plaintiffs signed and the statements they have been asking 

on the steed refer to the wordk "desegregated schools.”

THE COURT; Well, I will sustain the objection to this 

extent: I will let him ask her what she did say*

What was it you said would be the benefit you hoped to 

achieve by this suit?

The benefit?

Yes. What benefit do you really hope to achieve by this suit? 

By this suit I hope to achieve the desegregation of schools



25
hare In the City of Jackson.

Q. And vhat advantage will that be either to yourself or to 
your children?

A. I sincerely feel 117 children will have a chance at a better 

education-• * ' ’• ~V*;_ 4». ;► '* - ‘ **' " "*** i'* '* **v,V\ —4-- V;' . • . V '1 gr *' ‘V ̂' *1* •/’
Q* Apart from your own personal feeling, do you know of any

facts that make this so?

A- Well, I was schooled In the state through elementary school, 

high school and collage at segregated schools, 1 have the 

personal knowledge of know! «  that these schools did not cone 

up to par with the white schools- Since that time I don't 

feel that enough progress has been made to equalise the 

schools on this separate but equal doctrine to say that the 

children In the separate schools are receiving the same kind 

of education* I do believe that it Is inferior.

Q* lot ms ask you this, Mrs. Evers, since you have personal 

experience with these schools: One, do you feel that they
educated you?

To a certain extent. I do feel I could have gotten more.
How do you stand in your classes?

Well, I would say I was an average student. I graduated 

second In my graduating class of high school.
Q. Second in the class?

A, Ik s , 1 did.

Q. That Is a long way from average,

A. Well, It depends on how you grade average In the separate

A,

Q.
A.



26

schools. And 2 was always an average student, I would 

say, la college.

Tell as something, Mrs. Evers. In the student body in those 

three schools that yon attended, wouldn’t you say that the 

school progressed just about as feet as the student body 

wanted It to progress?

I could not say that because the student body was not in control 

of the school.

This is trus, but did your teachers deliberately hold you back? 

What was it they were withholding from you?

I think that they were withholding, perhaps without their 

knowledge, the knowledge that they could have given to us 

provided that they too had been taught and educated In 
desegregated schools.

And what knowledge is that?

As I said, I feel that the schools by being desegregated are 

inferior. Therefore the teachers that have graduated from 

these schools come out with inferior education. They la turn 

possibly cannot pass on to students all of the knowledge that 

they perhaps were able to achieve or to gain had they been 

attending desegregated schools»

Then what you are saying is that if, in the course of this 

case, vs can and do prove that the members of pour race, 

people like yourself, who have attended these separate 

schools have indeed gotten a better education than the people 

vho have been in the intermixed schools In the llsrth, then



you would agree that the separate school is the better? 

A. I would not agree that the separate school Is better.

A* I would sa^ it Is.
Q,. So if we could show a better education was In fact being

given to the children in separate schools, you would agree'
that separate schools are better?

A. W011, I will haws to disagree with you because I do not feel 

that separate schools provide the sans education for both 

races. X do feel that the Negro schools are inferior.

Cfc. Fight, but that is your personal feeling.

A. that is wy personal feeling.

Q. On the other hand, you would agree that if it can be proven 

in a court of law that the separate education is a better 

education, then separate schooling la better?
MR. mUut We object. He is asking an argumentative type 

of question not aimed at eliciting information to help 

the Courti just arguing with the witness. And she has 

answered about twice.

THE COURT: Overrule the objection.

Q. isn't education the primary function of a  school?

Q. If you will answer?
A. Will you state it again, please?

(ihe question was read by the reporter)

A. Well, I'll have to make the ease statement I made before. 3

do not feel separate education is the bitter.



28

Q,, Bit whatever la the better education, you are for it?

A. I want a  better education for my children and for all other

children, and I also feel that they cannot receive a 

better education In separate schools*

Q, Thank you very much.

(Witness excused)

MRS, EISA MARIE SIW3IET0K, called as a witness and having been 

duly sworn, testified as follows!

DIRECT EXAMINATION
BI MR. BEIL:

Q,. State your full name, please?

A. Mrs. Edna Marie Singleton.

Q. Speak up louder*

A. Mrs. Edna Singleton.

Q, Are you a resident of the City of Jackson?

A* I am*

Q,. And the State of Mississippi?

A. Yes, 1 am*

Q. How long have you been a resident of the State of 

Mississippi?

A« All my life.
Q. What is your occupation, if any?

A* I'm a beautician.



29
Q. And your race?

Negro.

Do you have any children? 

Yes, I have.

What are their names?

Derek Jerome Singleton and Vicki Lyn Singleton. 

Are any of them plaintiffs in this case?

Yes, they are.

What are their ages and grades?

A, Derek is age 14. He is in the 9th grade. 

Q. Any other child?

A. Vicki is in the first grade.

Q» And her age?

A* Seven.

Q. Which schools are your children attending?

A. Holy Ghost Catholic School.

Q,. Under what circumstance would you be willing to send them to the 

public schools of the city?r! VT ■; if1 ‘jit ILf *. ’'***' i •*v‘ ' . * * ’ " • •. . -,v' -s
A, If they ape desegregated,

Q, You told me you live in the City of Jackson. Is that right?

A. That’s right.

Q, What street do you live on?

A. I live on Maple Street.
’ . •

Q. Can you describe the racial make-up of the neighborhood 

where you live?



30
would, I

A* Well, on the rights ide of Maple Street, which
assume, continue to/the east of Wood or Bailey Avenue, is

the colored section. On the extending vest side is the

white section.

Q. Where do the whites and Negroes who live In this area pretty 

much across the street from each other, where do the whites 

and Negroes Mo to school?

A. The Negroes go to Mary C. Jones School, going west on

Maple Street. Extending east on Maple they would go to 

Brown, Rowan or Holy Ghost School.

Q. Are there any white schools located in this area?

A. Yes, there is one in about three blocks from where I livei 

across the street extending further out the school is

about a block from where I live.

Do the white children living In your area attend these 

schools located within two or three blocks?

A. Yes, they do.

Q,. And Negroes attend the schools that are for Negroes?

A. Shat school for Negroes from where I live is eight or nine 

blocks away. Of course, the families who live farther 

down the street would have to go farther than the eight 

or nine blocks.

Q. 'These are the Negro families?

A, That1# right. And there*s no bus facilities running in that 

direction.

Q In order for the Negroes living where you live to attend the



31
Negro public school, do they have to cross any dangerous 

streets or other hazards?

Bailey Avenue is a main thorough street, main traffic

street from where I ll^e^Jto^^et to Whitfield Mill Road.
And Mill Street and the/track is the next crossing for

Rowan, Beaver Brown, and Holy Ghost school.

Have you ever made any effort to make known to the Board

of Education in Jackson that you weren't satisfied with

the public school?

A. We did do that.

Q. When did you do that and what did you do?

A. That was in '55«

What did you do in '55?

I didn't at that time. I didn't personally.

Well, did you ever personally participate in any protest 

and make known your personal protest to the Board of 

Education?
A. No.'"7  ̂; «. > * . •*. ■ •' ; :r' •l'j*
Q. Was there a petition in 1962?

A. There was a petition, that's right, at that time. 
Q. Did you sign that?

A. I did.

Q. Do you know what the substance of that petition was?

A. That's right, that was to desegregate the schools.

Q. Did Jm receive yourself any response from the Board as 

to that petition?



52

A. Wo.

Q. Did the Board advise you that if your children were in the 

school system, the public school system, they would be 

eligible for a transfer to a white school that they wished

to attend?

No.

Are you a plaintiff in this suit?

Yes, I am.

What do you hope to obtain by being a plaintiff in this suit? 

A better education for my children and all Negro children.

Do you think this education could be better obtained in a 

desegregated or segregated school system?

I most certainly do.

Q. Do what?

Think they will have a better education under a desegregated 

system.

Thank you. No further questions.

CROSS EXAMINATION

By MR. CANNADA:

Q, I believe youd stated that you operate a beauty parlor.

Is that correct?

A , That is correct.

Q. Do you mind telling us whether your employer is of the 

white or Negro race?

A. I own the shop



Q. You own the shop yourself. Do you have any customers of 

the white race?

A. No.
Q. And I gather that all of your customers are members of the 

Negro race?

A. Yes.
Q. You have also stated that you have three children. Is that 

right?

A. Two.

Q, And they attend a private school, or parochial school?

A. lhat is right.

Q. What is the name of that?

A. Holy Ghost, Catholic school.

Q.. Is that the same school that the children of Mrs. Evers, 

who previously testified attend?

A. No, that is another school.

Q. Are all of the students of that particular Catholic school

Negroes?

A. Yes.

Q. There are no white students attending that schOol at this 

time?

A. Not to my knowledge.

(Witness excused)



'
FHiIZAHKTH WHITE, called as a witness and having been duly sworn, 

testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:

34

Q. Would you state your full name, please? 
A. Mrs. Elizabeth D. White.

Are you & resident of the City of Jackson?

Yes, I am.

State of Mississippi?

Yes, I am.

How long have you lived In Mississippi?
All my life.

Do you have any children?

Yes.

Would you tell us who they are? And their ages and grades 
in school?
Brenda La Faye White, age 14, ninth grade.

You are a Negro? Is that right?

Yes.

Q.. What is your occupation?

A. I am a baker at the Veterans Hospital.

Q. Is that the federal hospital for veterans?

A, Yes, It is.

Q. Where is your child Brenda attending school? 

A. Brinkley Junior High School.

<}. Brinkley Junior High?

A. That is right.



Q. Is that a white or a Negro school? 

A. Negro.

Q. All students are Negro?

A. That Is right.

The teachers are Negroes, aa far as you know?

That is right.

Have you ever made any effort to protest to the school 

board concerning the make-up of the school where your 

child is assigned to attend?

Non© other than the signing a petition in *62.

You did sign a petition in 1962?

Yes, I did.

Did you receive any response from the board concerning that 
petition?

A. No.

Q. Did the board advise you that you could apply for admission
of your child to a white school?

A. No.

Q. Of course, you are a plaintiff In this suit? Is that right? 
A. That*s right.

Q. Would you tell the court what you hope to obtain by being 
a party in this suit?

A. I feel like it would be a better education for my child 

and other children. I feel like it would be better.
Q. Better what?

A. Education, I say.



Q. You feel l i k e ----. If the schools are desegregated —

A. If tiie schools are desegregated I feel that.

MR. BELL: No further questions.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BST MR. WATKINS:
Q. As I understand It, your only Interest Is in seeing that 

your child gets the best possible education? Is that 

correct?

A. My child?

Q. Yes.
A. No, not Just ray child, but all children, Negro children.

Q. And the other Negro children?

A, That la right.
Q. And if you were satisfied, or if you found from the evidence 

in this case that your child and the other colored children 

in this community would receive a better education in 

separate schools, then that would be what you would continue 

to want, vouldn’t it be?

A. Well, I vouldn1t say. I don’t know whether it would be 

better in separate schools.

Q,. I didn’t ask you that question. I said if you were satisfied 

after hearing the evidence in this case, and if the Court 

found the children would get better education by going to 

separate schools, that is what you would want, isn’t It?

MR. BELL: We object. It is arguing with the



57

Q.

A.

Q.

witness. The question posed is the very issue before this 

Court.
THE COURT: I will overrule this objection.

What I am trying to find out is, all you want is the best

education available for your child and the other colored

children?

Yes, I want that.

Whatever will produce that, that is what you want the Court

to do, isn't it?

A. If it's what I want.

Q. How, let me ask you this: Have you personally visited

and seen the type of education that is received in 

schools that have been desegregated?

A. Beg pardon?
Q, Have you visited and examined or studied the educational 

processes and results in any schools that have been deseg­

regated?
MR. BELL: We object again.

A. Ho, I haven't.

MR. HELL: They have gone through this kind of questioning

and there is no place in any of the cases any requirement or 

prerequisite that a plaintiff in a school suit has to first, 

as a prerequisite to filing the suit, go to visit desegregated 

schools and have an opinion based on their visit.

THE COURT* She is on cross examination, and I will



q . Had not visited any such school.

EX' MR. BEIL:
Q. State your full name?

A. Mrs. Kathryn Thomas
Q» Are you a resident of the City of Jackson? 

A. Yes.
Q. State of Mississippi?

A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been such?

A. 56 years.

Q. Speak up a little more.

A, 36 years.
q . And you are a Negro? Is that correct ?

A. Yes.
Q. What is your occupation?

A. Beautician.

MRS. KAIHKXN THOMAS, called as a witness and having been duly 

sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION

Q Do you have any children



59
A « Yes*

Q. What are their names?

A* Carolyn Ann Thomas# age 16, and Earline, 18.

Qo Are any of them presently attending the Jackson City 

schools?

A. Yes.

Q. Carolyn?

A. Carolyn, the Brinkley High School.

Q» What grade is she in?

A. 11.

Q. What school is she presently attending?

A. Brinkley High,
Q.. la this a  Negro or vhite school?

A. Negro school*

Q. All the students are Negro, as far as you know?

A. Yes.

Q.. And the faculty, all Negroes, as far as you know?

A. Yes»

Q* Have you ever made any effort to protest to the school 

board that you weren’t satisfied with the make-up of the 

schools where your children attend?

A. Yes.

Q* What did you do?

A. I signed a petition in ’62.

Q. Did you receive any response from the school board to 

this petition?



A

' /• ‘-yv. ■ ' ? r,r*y..7 ■' *■*%**£ •.*■ jy- *..I*' ;«**** •. |. *

A. No.

Q. Speak up a little tare.

A. No.
Q, Did the board ever advise you that you could make application 

to have your child transferred to a white school5 

A. No.
Q. If you were able to obtain such transfer, would you be 

satisfied?

A. Yes.
Q. You would be satisfied if your child were transferred to a 

white school?

A. Yes.
MR. WATKINSi We object to arguing with the witness.

53hft answered his question, clearly and positively.

THE CO0RT: Overrule the objection.

Q, Would you give me your answer?

A. Yes.
Q, What do you hope to accomplish by this suit?

A. Well, a better education for colored kids. 

q . Do you feel this better education can be obtained in a 

segregated or desegregated school?

A. Desegregation.
MR. BEXiL: No further questions.

J»0



CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. CANHADA:
Q, I believe you stated you were also a beautician?

A* Yes.

Q. Do you own your own shop?

A, Yes.

Q. Where is your shop located?

A. On North Parish.

Q. Do you have any white patrons at your beauty shop?

A. No.
Q. All your patrons or customers are members of the Negro race®

A. Yes.

Q, I believe you stated you have one child that does attend 

the public schools of the Jackson Municipal Separate 

School District?

A. Yes.
Q. I believe you also stated that the only request you ever 

made concerning this child and the school which she 

attends was the signing of the petition in 1962? Is that 

correct?

A. Yes.
q , Nov, if it is a matter of fact, if it can be shown during 

the trial of this case that your child is receiving a 

better education by attending the school she now attends, 

is that vhat you want for your child?



42
A. What?
Q. A better education than would be true if she attended 

an integrated school*

A. Yes.
Q* You are saying you are interested in the education of 

your child?

A. Yes.
q . And if as a matter of fact it can be shown that by

attending separate schools a better education is actually 

received by the child, then that is what you want?

A. Yes.
MR. CANNAmi That is all.

SOT EXAMINATION

BY MR. BELL:
Q,. I don’t know whether you understood the question counsel 

asked you, and I am going to rephrase it, and listen to it 

before you answer.
MR. WATKINS; This is an obvious attempt to impeach 

his own witness, and get her to change the testimony.

I don’t thinfr counsel is entitled to do that.

THE COORTs I think he is entitled on redirect exami­

nation to find out whether she understood the question.

I will overrule the objection.
MR. WATKINS: Be is suggesting to her, Your Honor, that

she did give the wrong answer.



4?

THE COURTi Don’t lead the witness.

ft. As 1 understand it, counsel asked you whether if It could 

be shown by the trial that your child could obtain a 

better education in a segregated school, then you would 

be satisfied and you would not want a segregated school.

A. Well, desegregated schools is what we are asking for.

ft. Would you repeat the answer?

A, Desegregated schools are what we are asking for.

ft. Is it your belief your child can obtain — .

MR. WATKINS: We object to leading.

THE CCPRTj Don’t lead the witness.

Q. You indicated you are a plaintiff in this suit?
A . Ys s .

ft. And you do understand what this suit is intended to do? Is 

that correct?
A. Yes.

Q. And what is that, in your own words?

A. A better education for the colored kid in desegregated 

schools.

ft. In desegregated schools?

A. Yes.

Q. And how was that? In a desegregated school?

A. Yes.

ft. In your honest opinion, or your belief, Mrs. Thomas, would 

you be satisfied under any circumstances, regardless of the 

type of education that oould be provided, if your child were



A. What was that?
Q. Would you be satisfied If under any circumstances

child would be kept in a segregated school?

to be kept in a segregated sc tool?

A. No

MR. BELL* That is all

THE COURT! Any recross?

MR. WATKINS3 No, sir.

THE CCXJRT: Any examination by the interveners?

MR. SHELL* No, sir'■>
(Witness excused)

MR. BEIL: I would like to call Mr, Kirby P. Walker.

KIRBY P. WAIKER, called as a witness and having been duly swofki, 

testified as follows*

BY MR. HELL:

Q. State your full name.

A. Kirby P. Walker.

Q. You are a resident of the City of Jackson?

A. Yes.

Q. What is your occupation?

A. Superintendent of schools.

Q. How long have you held that position?

A. Since 1937*

Q. And you are a defendant in this suit? Is that correct?

DIRECT EXAMINATION



A. Correct

MR* BELL: I would like at this time to have marked

as an exhibit for identification the answers to the 

interrogatories which the * plaintiffs filed.

(Same was marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 1 for Identification)

Q. I ask you to take a look at the answers to the interrogatories, 

and these interrogatories purported to be signed by you and 

the members of the school board. Look it over and see if you 

can identify that.

A. Yes, I identify this, and I signed it. That is marked 

as Exhibit P-1.

MR. BEIL: I would like to move to have those admitted

in evidence.

Counsel suggests it is probably a good idea if we will 

also move to admit as a plaintiff's exhibit the interrogatories 
themselves, to make it clear.

THE COURT: You are offering the interrogatories now?

MR. BELL: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Let the interrogatories be received in

evidence as Exhibit 1, and the answers as Exhibit 2.

(Same were received and marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibits No. 1 and

No. 2, respectively.)

(Mr. Bell continues:)

Q. If you will turn to page 2 of your answers, Mr, Walker,



I see in the third paragraph there;

"in the discharge of hia responsibility of making 

arrangements for the receiving of applications for pupil admis­

sion in the public schools of the Jackson Municipal Separate 

School District and making temporary assignments of such 

applicants to schools in such district, Kirby P. Walker 

annually designates the time and place -within the district 

for the submission of applications for admission.75

Could you tell a little about hov that is done, that is, 

who receives these applications for admission each year? 

Principals of the schools in the district actually receive 

them.

And they receive a sufficient number of applications to 

pass out to each child? Is that correct?

Yes.

And these applications generally are similar to those which 

you attach as an exhibit to your affidavit which you filed 

back in March of last year? Is that correct?

I don't recall what was attached at that time. If you have 

a copy of it, I can tell you whether or not it is the same. 
I think it is part of the record, but just to refresh your

memory, the docianent is entitled APPLICATION FOR a *ta*:*iU

ADMISSION AND ASSIGNMENT.

That is correct.

Is it also correct that the individual student fills out this



'A:

application?
Either he or his parent, depending upon hia age.
In this application he gives the pertinent information as 

to h1» name, address, where he Is attending at the present 

time, where he lives in the city of Jackson. The 

Information is set forth on that form.

As I recall, that is correct.
^hat happens to those applications after they are completed 

either by the child or his parent?
The principal directs the teachers, who actually deal with the 

parent or the child in assigning the child to a school 

temporarily.
I understood under your new rules that you actually made the 

temporary assignments. Does that mean that really someone 

else makes them but your responsibility?

It is a delegated responsibility.
Who actually makes the assignment? the teacher?

Well, at our direction, yes.
And then what happens after the assignments are made by the 

teacher?
Hie child or his parent understands he Is entitled to attend 

school where he is assigned temporarily.
When are these temporary assignments, and by what procedure 

are these temporary assignments, made permanent? 

following a period in which there is an opportunity to 

request a change of assignment, and those have been acted f

4?



at staff level, we so report to the board of trustees

that pupils have been temporarily assigned, that we have

ted on requests for changes of assignments, and they acted
are then ready to be assigned penaanently.

What occurs generally then?

Sorry?
-%»■ i \ t* •*. t'-. n~.. V R . T

Does the board then generally ratify?

Hie board then acts iwoediately, passes an order, and makes 

assignments permanent.

In this procedure you never actually review each of the 

applications fen? assignment forms that are filled out 

by the students throughout the school system?

No, sir.

And the person who actually makes the temporary assignment, 

who is delegated the duty of making the assignment, the 

teacher in tills school or clasB, are there any written 

instructions given to her as to what criteria she should 

use in making that temporary assignment?

None.
What guide lines do these teachers have?

Hie principals are instructed to assign the pupils to that 

school, who have applied there and make requests for 

admission.

After the applications are completed, those students who 

would be going to grades still encompassed by that school 

are then assigned by the principal to that school? Is that



*9
correct?

A. Correct.

Q* You indicate there is a period of time after these applications 

are filed when they are held awaiting applications for trans­

fer* Now, where does the pupil or the parent obtain the 

information that he ie entitled to make this application for 
transfer?

They can be obtained at two points —  the board offices 

on 1060 lynch Street, or the board offices at 652 South 
President*

Q* That is where he could receive the form for application for 
transfer?

A. That is right.

Q* Where does he get the Information that he can go to either 

of these two places to obtain the form and make the appli­
cations .

A. That is in the hands of all principals and also announced 
publicly through the press.

Q. That they are able to make these applications for transfer?
A. Correct.

Q. Has there ever been a specific announcement to the principals 

or to the press that applications for transfer would be 

received even if the applications sought transfer from a 
Negro school to a white school or vice versa?

A. Not that specific designation.



Q. As I understand It, prior to 1954, maybe a little later, 

the resolution was adopted set forth in your affidavit, 

which set up the procedures which you are presently 

followingj but prior to that time, prior to the Supreme 

Court’s decision in 1954 concerning segregation in the 

schools, how were the pupils assigned to the public schools?

A. The assignment was made then on the basis of a board order 

and which zones for attendance were designated, approved for 
each school in the system.

Q,. At that time, of course, you had the dual zones, a set of

zones for Negro schools and a set of zones for white schools? 
Is that right?

A. That is right.

Q. And when, as one of our witnesses testified earlier here,

In a particular neighborhood where there were Negroes and 

whites living on opposite sides of the street, those Negro 
and white school zones would overlap?

A. That &  right.

Q.. With Negro children going to Negro schools and white children 
going to white schools? Is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. You indicated the zone lines were abandoned when the new 
policy took effect?

A. That is rigjit.

Q. r-3y question is, isn’t it correct that under this new policy

50



51
insofar as assignment to Negro or white schools is concerned, 

that there is no realdifferenee; that Negroes still are 

gdbg to Negro schools and whites are still going to white 

schools?
A. Negro pupils are still going to schools with other Negro 

pupils, and white pupils are going to school with white

pupils.
And these schools to which they go are still designated 

in your publications and elsewhere as either Negro or 

white schools? Isn’t that correct?

White or colored. I think that is the term.
Do you recall at what grade level in having these applications 

completed you stopped sending them home to the parents and 

permitted the child to complete the application himself? 

Usually when a child is able to write, he makes his own 

application, unless he is a new resident in the district, 

at which time we ask his parents to accompany him in making 

his first application.
Then would that be about the fifth grade or the fourth grade 

when the child would be able to write sufficiently well to 

fill out the application himself?

Probably earlier. I would say probably third or fourth

grade level.
Q. Generally, In answer to Interrogatory ^ that begins on page 

if of your answers!- in that request I might say that we had



#

52

requested information as to how are assignments affected 

by a number of different factors, which you indicated 

you take into consideration in making these assignments. 

Now, you indicate in answer to subsection 4-a, which 

begins down at the bottom and continues over on to 

5, that, "the discipline problem in the schools as well 

a* to and from the schools" is a factor you consider.

I should like for you to explain that sentence over on 

page 5 where you indicate that "tension and antagonism 

would develop,"resulting in discipline being adversely 

affected if white and Negro pupils were assigned at the 

earns school.
Do you want my comment on that?

Yes.

Well, it has been customary for Negro children to be 

associated with Negro children, and white children to 

be associated with shite children in this community* 

and in this situation any change of that custom, in my 

opinion, would create tensions, feelings, and antagonisms. 

You have been in the school system for how many years?

A. 27 years.
ft. Am I correct in presuming your answers given on the basis 

of your experience over this period?

A. In this consminity, yes.

ft* Is it also the thrust of Your answtr to subsection 4-b on



-/✓

on page 5 concerning "the relative abilities of pupils’* 

that the achievement ability or potential of the white 

pupil and the Negro pupil is so different that it Justifies 

keeping them in separate schools?

A, That is my opinion.

Q. What is that based on?
That they should be separate. The achievement and ability 

of the two races is so distinct that they should be schooled 

separately.
Is it your experience that in the Negro school — .

Strike that.
In your opinion are schools a factor themselves in the 

differing ability levels of these two groups of students?

A. No.
Q. You think the schools are exactly the same in that that 

the differing achievement are something that is inherent 

in the races? Is that correct, that the whites are superior 

and the Negtoes are inferior?

A. That was not my answer.

Q. That is why I would like you to explain.

A. I think the first question was whether or not the schools 

affected the ability or was a factor inthe ability of the 

child.

Q. That is right.

A. I don*t think so. Your second question was, was one superior 

or inferior to the other.

Q.. Was the one group of children inferior to the other?



With respect to achievement?

With respect to achievement.

That is correct. The white children have a better achieve­

ment record than do the Negro children.

And this better achievemen t level is attributable, you 

think, to what?

I am not called upon to account for that. I deal with the 

child as he presents himself in school.

I understand in some of the later phases of your Interrogatories 

there are tables set forth indicating that as the Negro child 

proceeds in the school system his achievement potential 

falls off more and more. Now, as the number one administra­

tive official, aren't you concerned about that?

I am concerned that his mental ability would seem to drop and 

his achievement would also tend to parallel.

This is not the fault of the school?

I don't think so.

It is the fault of the child or group of children?

I don't know it Is the fault of the child as such. I can't 

account for it.

You can't account for it, but you feel the best way to cope 

with it is to keep the two groups separate?

I think it is best for both groups educationally.

I take it that a sizeable percentage of your faculty people, 

Negro and white, are residents of Mississippi and were 

educated in Mississippi schools? Is that correct?



55
I am sorry} I do not know the origin. I would assume that 

a large part of them, but I am not sure.
Hhe findings you have made as to the Negro pupils and their 

achievement level, and the fact they are less good than 

that of the whites, in many instances, does that also hold 

true for your faculty, you find?

I didn't use the tern "good." I said in terms of achievement. 

Nov, vhat would be the question with respect to that?

I don't know that there is any difference, but my question isi 

Whether you find the same differential in achievement in the 

faculty people, Negro and white, as you do in the pupils?

I dorft interview the teachers. Hiat Is done by principals. 

They are the people who Interview them and recommend them, 

and their Judgment as to the individual who would best 

serve the children in that school. They work within board 

policy to minimum qualifications,and no teacher employed 

is under that qualification.

Does that answer mean that you yourself do not know whether 

or not the same problem in learning and achieving, as far 

as education is concerned, that you are cognizant of in 

regard to Negro and white children —  does your answer 

Indicate you are not aware whether there is a similar 

problem with Negro and white faculty members?

No, I am not aware of that.

Then it could very well exist and you just wouldn't know about 

It? Is that correct?

Show about what?



56
Q. About the differential in achievement and ability to learn

existing in the faculty, as veil as in the pupils?

Well, they are matured individuals coming within their 

credentials, which have been certified by others, and we 

accept them at "he face facts •

In the same way, isn't it correct that the pupils, when 

theycome Into the first grade, have certain credentials 

as far as residence, age, birth certificates,aad things 

of this nature, which you also certify is sufficient to 

permit those children to begin school? And, nevertheless, 

you understand and have had all this Information compiled 

concerning the difference In the achievement level of the 

pupils, which you say is not the cause of the schools.

Now, my question to you is whether the faculties, Negro and

white, show the same differential in ability.

A. I'd say the faculty is representative of the population, as 

the pupil population.

Q. Does that mean you are or not aware of it? Does that mean 

there isn't a differ ence in the faculty, or do you feel there 

is?

A. I don't know.

MR. CANNAQA.: We object to continuing harassment 

of this —

MR. BELL: I'm not going any further. He obviously

doesn't know



THE COURT: I believe at this point we will take a

ten minute recess. >

(Whereupon the court was recessed for ten minutes)

After Recess

MR. BELL continuing:
Q. We were speaking, Mr. Walker, about what you found to be the 

differing levels of achievement in Negro schools and in the

white schools, among Negro pupils and white pupils.

Based upon examination of these tables, it would appear 

that while the average white child of a certain grade level 

achieves more than the average Negro > that there are excep­

tions at either end of the scale, that there are Negro students 

whose aohievenent is above the average for the whites and 

whites whose level of achievement is below the average of 

the Negroes? Is that correct?

A. Which table are you referring to?
q . Almost any of them, really. Take the first one, Interrogatory 

5, Table 1.
A. Oils is a readiness test.

Q. What does that mean?
A. This test is given to first grade pupils shortly after entering 

school to see how ready they are to read, or to be introduced 

to reading.
q . Was this test given throughout the system, or was it confined 

to a few schools?



A. I think this includes all of the first grade pupils as of 

September-October, 1963,

And vas given to all title students in the schools?

I believe so. I think that is correct.

We have out at the far left, A, B, C, D, E, and 1, 2, 3* 4, 5« 

What does that indicate?

That is a scale to indicate the degree of readiness, 1 being 

the lowest and 5 being the highest. The figure 3 represents 

what the national average is with respect to first grade

pupils* ability for readiness to read.

This is before they have had any training in reading or 

anything else? This is as they just come into the school 

system?

Probably they have been in school a month or six weeks.

Nov, on this, as to reading and as to numbers and as to 

total, which I assume is for compilation of the two, reading 

and number readiness — .

No, this has to do only with reading.

What does "number" indicate?

Are you referring to another table?

No, it is the same table but as to the second scale on the 

table.

A. You are referring to the figures on the left, the perpendicular? 

Q. Uhdemeath the test, underneath the first one, there is a 

designation "Reading."

A. Yes.



59

BY MR. SHELL: Your Honor, do you have one of these that

you might follow the testimony?

THE COOMh No, I do not,

(Same is handed to the Court)

A. I am with you now. Yes, one has to do with readiness to read 

and the other is understanding or concept of numbers.

Q. And the total?
A. The total is a combined scale score for his reading and number

concepts.
Q. We see in the first column under "Reading" it has a large 

column going up, and at the top the number 3*5* What does 

that mean?
A. That is the average scale score for the white pupils who took 

this test in the Fall of *63.

And that indicates that the average grade for white students 

taking this test was 3.5, and some white students did much 

better than 3.5, and some did much poorer? Is that correct?

A. Yes, would be some above and some below.

Q. Now, the Negro level is 2.3, and that would mean the same 

thing for the Negro students? Is that correct?

A. Yes *

Q. Then it would follow, would it not, that there were some 

Negroes who did much better than 3.5 and some whites that 

did poorer than 2.3?



A, X don't know that it follows.

Q. Well, these figures here are averages, aren't they, what 
everybody did?

A. Correct, but I don't know that they overlap to that extent 
you Indicated.

Q. Then if it weren't, wouldn't the 3.5 level for the whites 

be much higher than 3.5?

A. Well, that is what it is.

Q. You are not willing to admit at all that there were any 

white students who fell below 2.3?

A. X do not know.

Q. And you don't know whether there were any Negro students who 

did better than 3-5 or made the 3.5?
A. I do not know,

Q. You don't know. Did you make any examination of these test 
scores to determine that?

A, These are examined by a staff member, who is more expert in 
this than I.

Q. You didn't prepare these graphs that are attached to the 

interrogatories ?

A. No, but it was done under my direction.

Q. After it was done under your direction, exactly what type of 
review of this information did you make?

A. Just what you see here.

Q. You just looked over the finished tables?

A. That's correct.



01

Q. You didn’t go back and review any of the materials from 

which these tables were prepared?
V

A. I did not.
Q. You don’t know then If there were any Negroes that scored 

3.5?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. The only action you have taken to try to correct the 2.3 

or the lower Negro scores which are below the national 

average, according to this table, Is to determine that it 

is better for Negroes to stay in Negro schools? Is that 

correct?

A. Not on this one factor, no.

Q. But since the testss onfill of these tables are similar, 

this helps you reach your conclusion?

A. That Is right.

Q. —  your conclusion the Negroes are better off in Negro schools?

A. That ia right.

Q. Without regard to these tests, have you in your own experience 

cane across or been Informed as superintendent that there 

were Negroes in the Negro schools who showed a great deal of 

ability, with respect to ability to achieve in scholastic 

endeavor?

A. I don’t know that It has been brought to my attention that
\ ;

there was a great number. I don’t recall.

Q. In your 27 years, have you ever heard of one?



62

A, Yes, I have.

Q. Did you ever have any concern yourself or evidence any concern 

to the board about the problem of the Negro child with extra 

ability being maintained in the Negro school which, 

according to your tables, shows the children aren't able to 

achieve as much?

Not as an individual, because again we are looking at a 

number of factors in the operation of a school and not Just 

one person's ability.

Would one of the other factors that would tend to make you

feel that your conclusion to leave even the extra bright 

Negro child in a Negro school be the factors you mentioned 

about the "tensions and antagonisms:| that would develpp if

the child were assigned?

A. That would not have been the point. 

Q. Would not?

A. Not with respect to that child.

Q. What would have been some at the factors?

A. Assuming a typical —  not a typical —  assuming an exceptional 

child at a given time, it is quite possible he would have 

found himself in a competition that would have really- 

frustrating effects and defeating his interest, instead of 

being the outstanding performer and would have been veiy 

likely a mediocre performer.

Q. This is if he had been transferred to a white school? 

A. That is right.



Where the achievement level is higher?

That is right.

This is your opinion?

Shat is ray opinion.

As far as we know, there have been no experiements of this 

type in the city of Jackson?

No experiments in the public schools.

Now, we have here on page 7 in answer to subsection 

*{~f of the interrogatories where our question asks you to 

indicate how assignments are affected by safety of the 

pupils. You indicated the safety of the pupils was a 

factor in making your assigneraents. You say separation of 

the Negro and white peoples in the schools is in the best 

interest of the physical well being of the people. Could 

you explain that answer a little?

Yes. I think going to and from school children go together 

as groups, and when they travel together, they more or less 

reinforce themselves j they are at eaoij their associates 

are those they have been together with regularly. I think 

tomo&lfy that would bring a conflict that could affect 

the well being of the pupils.

In this regard, how does that standard apply to a situation 

—  and 1 ‘m  sure there must be a number of them —  but one

63

ve had testimony from,Mrs. Singleton,early this morning, 

that Negro children in her neighborhood, all of whom were 

assigned to Negro schools further away from their homes xhaxi



white schools, had to cross a dangerous street and railroad 

tracks in order to get to this school. How does the point 

about the safety of the pupils, how is that resolved when 

you have a situation such as you testify to?

I don't think you can eliminate all hazards in going about 

any comnunity.

In your opinion, are there greater hazards, would they be 

faced with greater hazards if assigned to the nearer white 

schools, even than they are faced with when they are to cross 

the railroad tracks?

I think there would be conflict between the groups.

And there would be, in your opinion, greater hazards that 

way than if continued to be assigned as they are presently 

assigned?

I think so, yes.

In the next subsection, Jj~g, where we ask you to indicate 

all other matters and facts of similar nature that should 

be considered, you mention in the answer there were other 

matters and factors that should be considered, you say in 

your answer these would include mental and physical conditions 

that you might take i rto consideration in individual assign­

ments, but would be impractical to list them all.

Could you tell the Court now just roughly the type of physical 

and mental factors that you feel would be taken into con­

sideration.

I don't remember the question. Could I see the original



65
question?

Q. Yes, I was trying to read It to you. (Hands sane to 

witness)

A. As I recall, this has been some time since this was 

carefully considered. This statement would refer to a 

child who might be mentally retarded where he would not be 

considered typically educable, and also would refer to a 

child who mi^it have a physical handicap.

What action might be taken when you found yourself with the 

problem of assigning such a child?

We would try to see if another assignment would be better 

for him.

I take it though that all of these various factors you have 

considered snd which you have set forth In the interrogatories 

as being the basis for assigning children, have not resulted 

In the board's assigning any children to a school of the 

opposite race?

A. Do I understand — .

Q. Even considering all of these factors and giving whatever 

consideration you give in making the assignments, at no 

time have Negro children been assigned to white schools, 

using these factors, or vice versa?

A. That is right.

Q. Am I correct In my conclusion in reading through the various 

factors you have in answer to Interrogatory 4 that race 

is always a factor in making your determination based on



discipline problems, ability of pupils, compatibility of 

the teachers, availability of teachers, welfare of the 

community, safety of the pupils, and all the other factors, 

is interwoven with each of these determinates?

Baaed on my knowledge of the characteristics of the race, 

that is correct.

I take it, based on your answer to Interrogatory 7 on Page 9 

that the factor in the date mining of the board to continue 

its present operation of the school system, that the factor 

you considered is your be lief that such operation is in 

accord with the great majority of the people living within 

the district? Is that a correct interpretation to your 

answer?

Yes, sir.
Now, if you will go down to your answer to Interrogatory 1?, 

which begins on Page 10 and goes on to Page 11, in that 

interrogatory we had asked you to indicate any courses or 

programs or facilities available at schools attended by 

whites only which are not available at schools attended by 

Negroes only. You indicated generally the facilities and 

courses are similar at both Negro and white schools, but 

you indicated that there are some building trades, boys* 

homemaking and auto mechanics offered in schools attended 

by Negro pupils not offered by schools attended by white 

pupils. Could you explain to the Court what is involved 

in a boys* homemaking course, a buildings trade course?



67
A. You mean the nature of the program?

Q. Yes.

A. In the boys1 horaemaking course there Is an opportunity for 

thou to learn scan© skills in food preparation, household 

• management, -which ultimately proves to be a useable skill 

for a number of Negro youth.

Q. How does that work out? I Interpret it as teaching the boys 

how to be housewives. Is that correct?

A. No. I thought I made it clear. It involves both food 

preparation and household management.

Q. What is household management? Food preparation means cooking,

A. Rigit.

Q,. What is household management?

Wiping the dishes and sweeping the floors?

A. Yes, and budgetirg.

0.. And you find this is a course helpful to Negroes but not 

helpful to whites?

A. They are interested in it. They asked for it, and therefore 

we pffered it.

Q. Who was interested in it?

A. Hie boys who attend the Negro high schools.

Q. And because they asked for it, you gave them this course 

in cooking and budget making and housecleaning? Is that 

correct?

A. Yes.



68
What Is this building trades course about?

'Those trades are in carpentry, brickwork, probably plastering, 

painting. These are skills that boys are interested in 

because it offers an opportunity for them to use these 

skills for compensation.

Would these be courses of such nature that boys completing 

them successfully would be prepared to obtain employment 

in these various fields?

I would say would be apprentices, very likely. They wouldn’t 

be finished craftsman.

Is it my understanding there are no courses in bricklaying 

and carpentry in the white schools?
\

I think that is ri$it. They are not available.

White students in Jackson, Mississippi, can’t learn to 

be carpenters?

They are not interested in it.

None of these trades?

Not sufficient numbers to justify offering them.

Is the same true of auto mechanics?

That ds right.

There is no auto mechanics course available for white 

students?

No, sir.

I take it that the white boys, for example, are interested 

in ROTO?

*15101 has been true.

And you have never had a request from a Negro for ROTC



\

training?

No, air.

, And this ROTC training is the type of training that can lead 

to commissions in the service and enable them to get into 

ROTC courses in college that would lead to commissions in 

the service? Is that correct?

I* I don*t think it would be a prerequisite.

How about Distributive Education? What is involved in that?

A. That is a program that is open to senior high school pupils, 

grades 11 and 12, I believe, and it is a cooperative arrange­

ment where there is an employment agency willing to make 

a training situation for a child, and he is in school partially 
and works part of the time.

Q. In other words, business and professional people in the

corranunity contribute to the educational process by offering 

employment on a part-time basis to persons who can later 

obtain employment perhaps in that particular field?
A. That is right.

Q,» And a Negro chosen in the city of Jackson has no program 

available to him?

A. They have no interest in it.

Q. Your answer to that and also the answer on ROTC, "no interest 

in that," is that based on reports coming to you directly 

or based on the fact that you have never heard of interest 

in these fields?

A. Principals in schools and counselors would know of pupil

69



70
interest in programs, and the parents are close to those 

people and able to express themselves. It vould be 

my feeling if there had been any concern, any serious 

expressed concern, that a principal of a school in reporting 

at the end of a year would have indicated that this service 

should be offered because there was a sufficient number of 

youngsters to merit the offer. It would be the policy of the 

board and our position that the service would be offered if 

there were sufficient number of pupils to merit it.

Now, the fact that the service might be of value to the student 

wouldn't be the major factor, but whether or not you considered 

you had sufficient number of students that would merit providing

it?

That is true.
The same would be true of secretarial training?

That is correct.
Do Negro schools offer the girls any type of secretarial

skill at all?
A. Typing and stenography, shorthand.

Q. But none of the other business skills, as fair as business 

machines, bookkeeping?

A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. To your knowledge, Negro parents are not interested in their 

children obtaining education In this area?

A. It hasn't been indicated to me.



71
I see. Let me get this straight, Mr. Walker. As your 

understanding of your duty as the number one school 

administrator in Jackson, is it your position that formed 

the curriculum in these schools, based on the wishes of the 

students and perhaps their parents, or do you at any time 

base the curriculum on what you tin your educational 

experience feel would be of value to those students?

I would say some of both, plus the fact that part of the program 

is prescribed by law.
Are there some other courses which are not mentioned here 

which you think of that are offered to one race and not

offered to the other?
I think this represents it. I don't recall any others.

How about languages?
Languages are available in all of the high schools.

In the same degree? That is, if the white students are able 

to get two years of a particular language, are the Negroes 

able to get the same thing?
I think so. I don't know of any difference.

Does that mean there might be a difference you don’t know

about?
A. It might be in one school, yes. They might offer this 

year two years of a language and next year offer three

years of the same language.

Q. Would the same be true of science?

A. Could be. I hardly think it's likely in either case.



72
But the textbooks and everything that are used in both 

schools, to your knowledge, are the same?
Provided by the State and loaned to pupils on the same basis. 

The facilities in the laboratories and classrooms are all the 

same?
For all practical purposes they are the same.

Generally the facilities, as far as the physical facilities, 

in the schools are the same, according to your information? 

That*s right.
The teachers are paid according to the same salary scales?

I do not have ray salary scales.

How are the teachers paid?
A. They are paid on the basis of ray recommendation to the board.

Q. Based on your recommendation to the board?

That*s correct.
Is there a minimum salary?

Yes, there is a minimum.
And is there any kind of standard you use in recommending 

advances according to experience?

Yes. Five factors.

I see. What are they?
We have to take into consideration academic and professioaal 

preparation of a person, his teaching capacity, his 

administrative ability, and his character.

How do you Judge these?

Beg pardon?



75
Q. Haw are you able to Judge these as to each teacher?

A. I have to look at their files when they are reconanended 

and determine what would be a salary that would be 

reasonable and ask them if this is money in which they 

would be interested. If so, we would employ them. 

q . a  little earlier in your testimony, you indicated you

didn*t hire the teachers and didn’t know anything about their 

ability when I was asking about whether or not the Negro 

teachers showed the same inferior ability as far as scholastic 

achievement is concerned that you had documented so completely 

here as to Negro pupils. Now you say you do recommend the 

salary scale for these teachers based on factors having to 

do with their general abilities to teach. Can you explain the 

discrepancy?
A. Yes. I do not interview them. I reconsnend them after they 

have been recommended to us by the principal of the school.

We have a record as to their background and previous compen­

sation, and we deal with them on an individual basis as to 

whether or not they would be interested in being employed. 

q . Then in order to deal with them on this individual basis, 

you must have a pretty good idea of the relative abilities, 

based on educational experience and these other qualifications 

of leadership that you mentioned, to give us an answer to the 

question we asked before; namely, whether or not, in short,



74

the Negro teachers are inferior to the white teachers.

Salary doesn’t indicate they are necessarily inferior.

MR. CANNADA.: We object to repeating the question. He

has asked the question several tiroes.

MR. BELL: nd I haven*t gotten an answer.

THE COURT: I will overrule the objection. It is

cross examination.

Again let’s go back and say that we have this complete 

documentation showing that the Negro pupils do not achieve 

as well as the white pupils; we have your general belief that 

most of the teachers are residents of Mississippi and came 

up through the Mississippi schools. My question to you before 

andmy question to you now is whether or not the Negro teachers 

exhibit the same shortcomings as far as scholastic achievement 

and ability to grasp Information that the pupils exhibit.

I don’t know that.

Have you made any similar type of study on the teachers as 

you made on the students?

Sorry?

Have you made any —  Do the teachers have to take tests of 

any sort, as standard tests, before they are hired?

A. No.
Q. Do they take one of the national standardized teachers’ 

testa before they are hired?

A. No.



After they are hired? 

No.
There la no such requirement in the city school system.

Well* on the basis of their educational background, 
which you indicate you take into consideration in setting 

the salaries, what do you find in comparing the Negro teachers 

experience and preparations with the white preparation?

I don*t make that comparison. Yes, I think I can help you.

We are in a position to negotiate with persons on the basis 

of their availability. We have a substantial number of 

applications, far more than we can use. We have a minimum 

salary that we would pay which is fixed by state lav.

Beyond that we are in a position to negotiate. We use the 

free enterprise system in employing teachers, and where we 

have a good supply we can take advantage of the market and 

buy at discount, so to speak. Where the market is slim or 

supply is not so abundant, we would have to pay a better 

salary.

I see. I think that is helpful, md we all know, of course, 

that there is a great supply —  you have a much larger 

supply to draw from with regard to the Negro teachers than 
you do for the white teachers. Isn*t that correct?

I wouldn*t say "much greater.'* There is some difference 

probably.

There is a noticeable difference in availability?

I am not impressed that that is true.



Q. Sorry?
A. I am not Impressed that that ts true. It might be, but 

I'm not sure.

Q. Veil, what are the factors that would not impress you?

A. That necessarily there are more Negro applicants than whites.

Q. You receive a certain number of applications for teaching 

Jobs each year from both Negroes and whites?

A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you advise what the approximate indication of the number 

of both you receive is?

A. I would say a thousand total, and of that number four hundred 

Negroes and six hundred from whites.

Q. Going on the basis of the jobs to be filled at any particular 

time, would you have more applications for the Negro vacancies 

than you do for the whites?

A. I'm Just not that close to It to answer that.

Q. You Indicated a little earlier that as a matter of fact you 

did have some greater number of Negro applicants fro 

available jobs than whites.

A. Did I say that?

Q. That was ray impression earlier. Now you Indicate that that is 

not correct.

A. I don't remember the earlier impression.

Q. Your impression now is that there is not a greater number?

A. Not materially, in total supply.



Q. Nov, do you have any idea as to whether on an average the 

white teachers start at a higher minimum salary than the 

Negroes?
A. No, I think they start off the same.

q . You think they do start off the same?

A. That’s correct.
Q. And then along with all the other things you feel generally 

are equal in the school system, you would add the factor of 

teachers' salaries?

A. That's right.
Q. In view of all these answers, Mr. Walker, would you explain 

your answer to Interrogatory 14 where you indicate that 

the records —  This is on page 11 —  based upon the record 

of this district for '62-'63 school year, the average cost 

of the white student above the state minimum was $135-63, 

and the average cost per Negro pupil above the minimum was 

$102.44. How does that differential become available if 

as you indicate the facilities, the programs, the teaching 

materials, teaching salaries, are all the same?

A. Well, first of all, this accounting is not so precise that this 

would be a true audited difference. There are Just general 

allocations made with respect to certain costs, and not 

necessarily based on an hour or a rateable amount. It is true 

that the centers attended by Negro pupils generally are 

larger. This would affect somewhat the per capital cost of 

administration and of other services, and such factors



as insurance, maintenance of a plant, would apply. These

78

differences occur within the buildings and from grade to grade 

and class to class. At this particular time there was a 

thirty-three dollar difference. This year it might be 

less or more.
Q. In years earlier than 15 62 and going back to *5^ and

earlier, there was a much greater difference? Isn’t that

correct?

Yes, there was. That is correct.

Do you have anything else to add in explanation of why in 

the *62-63 year —  I ’m not very good at math, but it 

looks like a fairly sizeable percentage, about a fifth more 

expended for the average cost for educating the white pupil 

than vac expended in educating the Negro pupil?

This doesn’t represent all the costs. This is only the sup­

plemental figure. I don't consider that a significant figure, 

difference,

Now, as I understand, the other costs is the money you get 

from the state for these people?

A. That's right.

Q, And that is at the present time on an equal basis, the same 

amount for Negroes and whites?

A. Well, it is on the basis of a formula involving a number of

factors. It is for the support of an educational total program.

Q. Am I unfairly concluding that all of the discrepancy is the 

allocation made by the local school board and that none of it



comes from the state minimum program?

A. That’s rigit.
Q. On the interrogatories, Interrogatory Number 10, we posed the 

question* "State what, if anything, has been done by the 

defendants and by each of them in the way of compliance with

the order of the United States District Court of March 4,
$

1964, including efforts to prepare students, teachers, parents 

and the community for the possible effectuation of such order 

in September, 1964." Ifels question was objected to by the 

defendants in the interrogatories, and which we withdrew.

Now that we are at trial, I would like to ask you that 

question at this time.

MR. WATKINS: If it please the Court, we'd like to object 

to that question now for the 3arae reason we objected to the 

interrogatory.

THE COURT: Sustain the objection.

MR. BELL: Your Honor, let me, if I may, state the reason

for asking that question and the one similar to it at this time.

As the Court recalls, the order of March 4 required that the 

board cease operating a segregated school system and required 

them to bring in a plan by July 15 looking forward to the 

desegregating of one whole grade by the beginning of the '64- 

*65 school year. Now, it is our contention that that question 

and the answer to that question is relevant if the order of 

March 4 was to have any meaning and effect. And while we



80

understand that the order is always subject to amendment 

or revocation by whatever the Court concluded as a result 

of this trial, we nevertheless felt the Court had something 

in mind when it entered the order of March and what it 

had in mind —  at least, what we had argued to the Court —

was that in a situation such as is here in Jackson where*
segregation had gone on for a long period of time, that in 

order to effectuate a meaningful change and peaceful change, 

that preparation should be made beginning inmediately.

And therefore, we felt that that was the effect and thrust 

of the order* to put the board on notioe so that they could 

begin making whatever plans and preparations they thought 

necessary. That is why we feel the question is relevant 

at this point* to see what preparations have been made, 

because it goes both to the good faith compliance of the 

order and a determination as to whether the final order 

entered by the Court at this time should be broadened or 

altered or changed.

THE COURT: I will adhere to ray ruling. My thinking

at that time was that it was more in the nature of a

declaratory Judgment, and I allowed until July 15 in which to 

submit the plan, and the proposed plan would become effective 

at the fall sessionj so I think the question is incompetent 

at this time and I will adhere to my ruling.



81

Q. In your answer to Interrogatory 9, we had saked you to 

attach any statement or resolutions by the defendants 

pertaining to desegregation of the public schools since

the 1954 Supreme Court decision, and you indicated and 

replied s "There have been no official announcements or 

resolutions made or adopted by defendants pertaining to 

desegregation of the public schools since the 195^ Supreme 

Court decision."
Now, I want to ask you again whether or not —  and ask you

to t-.Mnif about It, if you will —  the board has prepared and

issued any statements or resolutions, statements to the 

public or to the school teachers, to any group about desegre­

gation of the public schools here in Jackson.

There has been none.

Have any bulleti ns come from any of the offices of the board, 

to your knowledge, since the filing of this suit concerning your 

position and the board*s position concerning the desegregation 

decision of *5^ and its possible effect on the school system 

here?

A. I don’t recall any.
Q. When do you recall something that you signed designating it 

as a "statement," and it was also signed by members of the 

board, that indicated that "Darrell Evers et al have filed 

Civil Action 3579 in the United States District Court for 

the Southern District of Mississippi at Jackson. The 

Jackson Separate School District, members of the Board of



82

Trustees of the district, and the superintendent of 

the district have been named as defendants. This case 

involves the operation of the public schools of the district.

In the sincere belief that it is in the best interest of all 

the people of the district and particularly the school 

children of the district, the trustees of the district, with 

the full support of the mayor and commissioners of the City 

of Jackson, and the superintendent of the schools of the 

district take this opportunity of assuring all citizens 

that they will resist and oppose this litigation by every 

legal and constitutional means available,

The statement goes on, "Thomas H. Watkins has been 

employed as special counsel, along with Bobert c. Cannada, 

regular attorney of the trustees, to represent the defendants 

in this case, and the attorney-general of the State of 

Mississippi has been requested to assist these attorneys.

The filing of this case will not affect the operation of the 

schools of this district. All citizens are urged to maintain 

a calm and lawful atmosphere, leaving the handling of this 

problem to the duly constituted authorities. Additional 

statements will be issued from time to time in order that all 

may be informed as to developments."

The statement was purported to be signed by Lester Alvis, 

Chairman; C. H. King, Trustee; Lamar Noble, Trustee; W, G. 

Mize, Trustee; J. V, Underwood, Trustee; K. P. Walker,

Superintendent; Alan C. Thompson, Mayor; B. L. Luckett,



Commissioner; and Torn Marshall, Commissioner.

Do you recall that statement?

Yes, I do. Quite well.

When did the board issue that statement?

I don’t recall the date, but I would say it was shortly 

after the —

Was it the early part of this year?

I don’t recall. Do you have a date?

Early in 1564?

It was in 1964?

I ’m  asking you.
I don’t recall whether it was this year or last year.

Who prepared this statement?

It was jointly prepared.

By all the signatories? Is that right?

No, not all of them. Counsel for the board and I, I ’m sure, 

had more to do with it than anyone else.

To whom was this statement sent?

It was released to the press, and copies of it were made 

said distributed to the faculty of our schools, parents of our 

schools, Parent-Teachers Associations,

To all the parents?

No, I would say to the associations. The PTA units may have 

announced it or carried it further.

You meant the statement for general publication though?

That’s right. It was released to the press first.



84
Q. Was the statement posted in your schools?

A. I don't know if it was posted, but there would have been no 

objection to its being posted.
q . Now, isn't this a statement having to do with the desegregation 

of the public schools, that you indicate you did not make, in

answer to Interrogatory Number 9?
That is not & statement to desegregate. That is a statement 

relative to litigation that had been filed.

I think your answer here indicates that you didn't issue any 

s tat eras nts pertaining to desegregation of the public schools.

I didn't construe that to refer to that document.

Have you or the board issued any subsequent statements, as you 

indicate in this one that you would?

I think there was another later, yes*, and signed also by the 

board members and by mej probably after the Court’s decision 

here last March, I guess it was.
Q, What was the substance of that statement, if you remember?

A. As I recall, it would have been somewhat a summary of the

Court's direction to be prepared for a day in court in May and 

to be prepared by July 15th, as I recall, to submit a plan for 

desegregation of schools effective September, 1964. This 

was, I believe, referred to as a temporary or preliminary 

order.
Q. And what distribution was made of that statement?

A, The same as made of the previous: the press, principals of 

schools, faculties, parent-teacher associations.



85
Q. Was there In that statement a reaffirmation of the board's 

determination to resist and oppose this litigation by every 

legal and constitutional means available?

A. I don’t recall that it was, but I vould think the first 

statement vould have been sufficient.

Q. As a  result of this second statement — - This second statement 

was issued after the Court had entered its order of March 4th, 

you said?

A. I think that is right.

Q. Now, have the board or you taken any other action as a 

result of the Court’s order of March 4th, of a similar 

nature?

MR. WATKINS: We object to that. That is a question—

THE COURT: — Yes, sustain the objection, for the same

reason.

Just to summarize, is it correct to state that your testimony 

has indicated that during your experience with the school system 

there have been no assignments,either originally or as a result 

of transfer, of Negroes to white schools and whites to Negro

schools?

A. That is correct.

Q,. And that similarly as to faculties, there have been no

assignments of Negro faculty persons to white schools and no 

assignments of white persons to Negro schools?

A. That is correct.

Q. And that the budgets and other administrative features of



of your school program have also been handled and operated 

on the basis of race, with budgets and curriculum designed 

for Ifegro schools, and all of these similar administrative 

aspects designed for vhite schools?

A. Rigit*
MR. HELL: I think we have no further questions.

MR. CAKNADk: We have no questions at this time, reserving

the right, if the Court please, to put him on in our direct 

case.

OHE COURT: Very well. You may step aside, Mr. Walker.

MR. BELL: -—  I'm very sorry, Your Honor. Wiere was one

administrative detail, if I could have him return to the 

stand? I'm sorry, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well.
(Witness resumes place on witness stand)

(Mr. Bell continues:)

Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Walker. I had asked you to bring with you 

this morning in your subpoena a copy of the original petition 

that was filed with the school board.

A. I have it.
Q.. I think that was made an exhibit to your original affidavit 

last year.

MR. BELL: We'd like to have marked for identification as

Plaintiff's Exhibit 3 for Identification the letter and petition 

addressed to the Chairman of the Board of Trustees, dated 

August 15, 1962, and signed on behalf of the petitioners by



Medgar V. Evers.
THE COURT: Very veil. Let It be marked for identification.

(Sane were marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 3 for Identification) 

MR. BELL: Ve would move to have this admitted as 

Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 3.

THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.

(Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 3 for Identification received in evidence) 

MR. BELL: Thin seems to be the original. At a later

date the defendants may want to substitute a copy, and we would 

have no objection to that.
THE COURT: Yes, sir. let a copy be substituted.

MR. HELL: We have no further questions.

MR. CANNADA: May w© ask one or two questions, still with

permission to put Mr. Walker back on during our direct?

THE COURT: Yes.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. CANNADA:
Q,. At the conclusion of your testimony a moment ago you were 

asked a summary question concerning the assignment of 

teachers, et cetera, on the basis of race. And you answered 

yes, if I recall. Did you have in mind the same thing there 

that you previously testified to that you had in mind as to the 

characteristics of the race, the distinctions of the race

itself?



88
A. I didn’t understand the question asked as you have stated it.

The question I understood was if these schools now 

serve white pupils as they have heretofore and Negro pupils 

as they have heretofore and If we had requests for 

changes one to the other, and my answer was that the schools 

were still serving Negro pupils as they had heretofore and the 

white children were served in schools as they were heretofore, 6 

and we had no changes of assignment, or had there been any made 

in my period of responsibility. And the same applied to 

faculty. I thought that is what I answered.

Q. it may be that was your answer, but I wanted to make

certain that you were c l e a r  in your answer tojthe question.
In

With that/mind, would the reporter read the last question 

he was asked before he left the stand?

(®ie court reporter read the three questions and answers appearing 

in this record beginning at Line 16 of Page 85 and continuing 

through Line 5 of Page 86)

A. I was correct in my answer to the first two questions.

I think I see in the third question an inference that I can 

clear up; namely, that the character of the white and colored 

pupils have been factor® and are factors in the operation of 

these schools. That has to do with their ability and with 

their achievement.

MR. CEAHKADA: I believe that is satisfactory.

MR. HELL: let me ask one question.



F T EXAMINATION
m  MR. BELL;

Q. Ia that correct, Mi*. Walker, that la making these evaluations 

of the factors that all Negroes, Including those few you 

recall who were exceptionally bright, are assigned to Negro 

schools? Is that correct?

A. They are.

Q. And all of the whites, regardless of their characteristics, 

abilities, good, bad or indifferent, are assigned to white 

schools?

A. Are in school with other white children. That is correct.

Q,. That*s right. Thank you.

(Witness excused)

THE COURT: Very well, take a recess until fifteen minutes

'til two.

(Whereupon the court was recessed until 1:45 P.M.)

After Recess

MR. BELL: At the conclusion of Superintendent Walker's 

testimony, I believe the plaintiff's are about finished, 

and we therefore rest, with the understanding that we would 

have an opportunity to put on rebuttal witnesses at the 

conclusion of defendants and intervenors1 case.



90
THE COURT* Yea, you certainly have the ri#it to put on 

any rebuttal testimony.

Very well. Whom will you have, Mr. Watkins? Are you 

ready to proceed?

MR. CANNADA: Yes, ve are ready, Your Honor. We call

Dr, Joseph Barker.

DR. JOSEPH I. BARKER, called as a witness by the defendant and

having been duly sworn, testified as follows*
DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. CAJBJADA:

Q. Give your name to the reporter.

A. Joseph E. Barker.

Q. For whom do you work, Dr. Barker?

A. I ’ve been working five years with the Jackson Public School 

system.

Q. Prior to that time, for whom did you work?

A. I worked for a junior college in Florida.

Q. Dr. Barker, would you give to the Court your educational 

degrees and where they were obtained?

A. I have an AB Degree inonatheraatics in Mercer University in 

Macon, Georgia} {fester of Education degree from the same 

institution, in education and mathematics; and a Doctor’s 

degree from Florida State University in the field of 

supervision and educational measurements.

Q,. And what has been your specialty, if any, since you have been



r

connected with the Jackson Municipal Separate School District?

A. With standardized testing.

Q. And in that capacity, what were you?

A. Director of testing and special education.

Q,. As director of testing and special education, what tests, if 

any, did you administer to the pupils of the Jackson 

Municipal Separate School District?

A. We have a battery of school tests beginning with the first

grade readiness test, which has already been spoken of briefly

this morning.

Q. A  little louder.
We test in reading, grades one through six, with a test that 

follows the completion of the reader and the basic reading 

program. We test for scholastic aptitude or intelligence 

in grades two, five and eight and ten. We test with 

achievement batteries in grades four through eight, and we give 

college qualification tests to all eleventh graders.

Are all of these tests conducted under your supervision?

They are.

Do you get the results of these tests?

Yes.

Do you tabulate and use these results in any way?

Yes, sir.

What use do you put to these tests?

All of these except the college qualification tests are given



In early fall. During the Christmas holidays, ray office 

is responsible for the tabulation and the treatment of all data 

coming back from than from the various schools, and ve In turn 

treat them to facilitate the further study on the part of 

the various school staffs.

Dr. Barker, you have heard the talimony of Mr. Kirby Walker 

previously in this case, I believe.

Yes, sir.
You understood him to testify that there vere, as far as 

this district is concerned, no Negro pupils attending schools 

attended by any white pupils, and no schools attended by

white pupils predominantly attended by Negro pupils?

Yes, sir.
Do you know that to be true of your own knowledge?

Yes, sir.
Therefore, have you collated the information resulting from 

these various tests so as to show the results as to each of 

the races —  that is, the Negro race and the white race?

I have done such, yes.

Are you familiar with the tables that were attached to the 

answers to the interrogatories filed in this case?

Yes, sir.
Did you actually prepare those schedules and tables?

A. Yes, sir.
Q, Are they correct, to the best of your Information and

knowledge?



A* They are.
Q,. np. Barker, I hand you, og rather, I am placing on the stand 

a chart, and I ask you if you recognize this chart.

A. X do.

Q. What is it?
A. It is a chart reflecting performance for the past fall, the 

present school year, on the metropolitan readiness test, a 

teat given to all first graders.

Q, That is in the schools of the Jackson Municipal Separate 

School District?

A. That is correct.
MR. GAHElAm: We offer this as Exhibit 1 to the testimony

* >

of this witness.
THE COURT: Let it be marked.

(Same was received and marked as Defendant's Exhibit Wo. 1)

Q. if you would, would you explain how this graph is made up?

I see A, B, C, D, and E on the left margin. Explain what 

the figures represent.

A. test, given very early in the fall to first graders,

provides some measure of the readiness status of the pupil 

in two areas: reading and number readiness areas. The scale 

as provided in the test manual that is utilized is an A, B,

C, D, E rating scale, with A  designated as "superior" 

readiness status, C "average" readiness status, and E "poor 

risk" for doing adequate first grade work. As I mentioned, 

there are two areas that are tested: reading readiness and



94

and number readiness. For purposes of drawing up the chart, 

we weigh or assign numbers to these categories and then treat 

them arithmetically. The initials above the bar graphs 

represent the arithmetical mean performance in both b 

areas,and total performance for white pupils represented by 

the red bars and for Negro pupils represented by blue bars* 

Under reading readiness for white pupils — * that Is the red 

column to the left —  the average performance with the scale 

score that we use is 3.5, which is a performance level above 

that of the national average, which in all Instances here would

be 3*0.
For reading readiness of Negro pupils, the average perfor­

mance was 2.3, which you see is below that of the national 

average performance*
Likewise, in the number readiness area, white pupils 

performed as an average at the 3*6 index of the seals, which 

also is above average) wherein Negro pupils performed at the 

2.6, which Is below average.

A similar pattern exists for the total of these two scores. 

Incidentally, the total is not the arithmetically average of the 

two means, but has its own norm table from which these scores 

are derived.
Q. Dr. Barker, I believe you said this was taken for this present 

year, that is the -63-'64 year, having been taken in the fall 

of 1963?

A* That*s correct.



95
Did you make a similar test In the previous years that you 

have been with the Jackson Municipal Separate School District? 

Yes. Those are, of course, available and show essentially 
the same pattern.

The same pattern every year you have been here?

That*s correct.

Did you look at the records prior to your coming to the district 

in this regard, to see if they show a pattern?

Yes, I did.

What did they show?

A. They show a pattern identical to the one shown here.

Q. I am placing in front of you another chart, which is labeled 

"Mean Intelligence Quotients SRA Primary Ability Test 

by Negro and White Students in Grades 2, 5, 8 and 10, Jackson, 

Mississippi, 1960-1963." Are you familiar with that table?
A. I am.

Q. Are those figures on there figures supplied by you?
A. They are.

MR. CAMNADA: We would like to offer this as Exhibit 2 to
his testimony.

TTHE COURT: let it be received in evidence and marked

as Exhibit 2.

(Same received and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 2)



96

Q. Now, Dr. Barker, if you will, explain that table to us.

A. t h i * provides a record of average performance on the group 

intelligence test called the SRA Primary Mental Abilities 

Test on White and Negro Pupils in the Jackson Public School 

System for the years i960, 1961, 1962 and 1963.

Q. Would you explain to us what the SRA Primary Abilities Tests

are?
test

^ l a  is a widely used group/of scholastic aptitude that 

is structured along the lines of Thurston’s work with the 

various facets of intelligence. Hie score that we used, which 

is called the IQ Estimate is derived from a combination of 

two of the sub-tests in this battery. Hie particular com­

bination being that which correlates most highly with the 

success in school work that pupils earn in the immediate

future.
Is this test generally recognized and used throughout the 

nation?

That is correct.
00 ahead with the table. It is given to all of the pupils

in the 2nd, 5th, 8th and 10th grades of this district?
\

Very, very few exceptions to that. I will refer primarily 

to the present school year. The table reflects that for 

the second graders numbering among white pupils 1966 that 

there was yielded an average IQ estimate quotient or score 

of about 105 points. At the same grade level for Negroes 

numbering more than 1500, there was a yielded average



quotient of approximately 91 points.

Q. All right. The Fifth grade.

A. For the present year for the fifth graders, 1800 white 

pupils, approximately, there was an average quotient of 

108} for the 1140, approximately, Negro pupils there was an 

average of approximately 86£.

Q. Then your eighth grade?

A. For the eighth grade, white pupils numbering 1529 there was 

yielded a quotient of approximately 107. For the nearly 

1100 Negro pupils at that grade level there was yielded 

a quotient of approximately 78*

Q. And the tenth grade?

A. For the 1446 tenth graders there was yielded a score of 

approximately 105. For the 870 Negro pupils a score of 

approximately 78.

Q, I see on that chart you have also for the years preceding,

*60, *61, and *62, And those figures opposite those years 

are for the respective years.

A. These figures show that at all the grade levels tested that the 

average quotients among the white pupils remains approximately 

the tome within each grade level, and a similar pattern exists 

within the specific grade levels for Negro pupils; so at a 

given grade, the pattern has been the same throughout this 

past four year period.

Q. As I understand it, you do not have these tests for 11th or 

12th graders?



98

These are all the tests that are given in this district?

A. Of this nature, 79s.

Q. I show you another chart that is labeled "Jackson,

Mississippi, Metropolitan Achievement Tests 1965, Grade 4,"

Do you recognize this?

A, Yes, X do.

Q. Are the figures shown thereon figures supplied by you as a 

result of these tests you have administered?

A* They are.

MR. CARHADA: Ve offer this as Exhibit 3 to the testimony

of this witness*

THE COURT: let it be marked and received In evidence.

(Same was marked end received in evidence as Defendant's Exhibit 3)

Q. Would you explain this chart to the Court?

A* The Metropolitan Achievement Tests are a well known and a 

widely used battery of Instruments that provide sees measure 

of development or proficiency in most of the areas, academic 

areas, that are significant in the public school process.

The scale or score that is provided on these instruments 

is cal. 1 a "stanine," s-t-*~n-l~a~e. This stanine score 

is related to the percentages of pupils in the national norm 

group with this breakdown:

A score of 1 in all instances and all grade levels and 

all sub-tests in the battery would represent performance 

similar to that of the lowest four percent in the national 

norm group. A  stalne score of 2 would represent the



^7

performance of the next seven percent of the noiroal 

group. A score of 3 would represent the performance of the 

next twelve percent in the norm group. the performance

of the next seventeen percent. A 5 would represent the 

performance of the middle twenty percent of all pupils in the 

norm group.
How, the curve is spuetrical, so the same percentages 

diminishing now would relate to scores of 6, 7# 8 and 9, so 

that a 1 again is performance similar to the lowest four 

percent, while a 9 would be performance similar to the top 

four percent,
There are several tests in the battery, including word 

knowledge, word discrimination, reading, spelling, a total 

language score, an arithmetical computation score, and another 

arithmetic score having to do with problem-solving and the 

understanding of arithmetical concepts.

Is this test given to all fourth graders in this district?

A. With very, very,very few exceptions, yes, sir. 

q . would you tell us the results,as reflected by that chart, for 

the year 1963?
A. We have here with bar graphs shown the average or mean stanine 

performance for white and Hegro fourth graders for fall of 

»63, and all of the subject areas taken at this grade level. 

Word Knowledge, the red column to the left, we have an 

average |erformance of stanine 5*7 for white pupils, and 

stanine 3.2 for Ifegro pupils. In Word Discrimination, we



100

have scores of 5*8 for white pupils and 2.6 for Negro pupils. 

In the Reading area, we have average scores of 5.4 for white 

pupils, 2.7 for Negro pupils. In Spelling area, w© have an 

average score of 5.9 for white pupils and 2.6 for Negro pupils. 

In the Language Total area, we have a score of 5*5 for white 

pupils and 2.3 for Negro pupils. In the Arithmetic Computation

area, we have an average of 5.0 for white pupils and

2.2 for Negroes. In the Arithmetic Problem Solving & Concepts

area, we have a 5*4 for white pupils, and 2.3 for Negro pupils.

In every instance toe performance of the white pupils is at 

or above the national average. In every Instance at this grade

level the performance of Negro pupils is lower than the national

average.

Q. Is this pattern true with reference to prior years, or just 

1963?
A. We began to use this instrument in i960. Our records reveal 

that the pattern for fourth graders, white and Negro, for the

years I960, 1961 and *62 are essentially identical to that 

shown here for 1963.

Q. Before I ask you about toe next chart, in how many grades is

this Metropolitan Achievement test given in this district?

A. We administer it in grades 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8,

Q,. You do not administer it above the 8th grade or below toe 4th 

grade?

A. lhat1© correct.

Q. Is there a particular reason for that?



101

A* We feel that with our philosophy that test results can 

help us work more effectively with youngsters, more effec­

tively with parents, more effectively with respect to program­

ming, that these are the important years as far as standardized 

tests are concerned for the utilization of such results for 

such purposes. As you know, we give other tests at other 

grade levels, but In teims of achievement testing, it is during

the upper elementary and lower junior high years where battery 

testing, we feel, plays the greatest role with respect 

to helping youngsters.

This Metropolitan Achievement Test, is this a generally 

recognized test used nationwide?

Yes, it 1b , widely used nationwide.

I have presented to you another chart labeled "Metropolitan 

Achievement Tests 196? Grade 5-" Do you recognize that

chart?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Did you supply the data on this chart? 

A. I did.

MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 4.

THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant’s Exhibit 4) 

Q. Now, would you explain this chart as to the results, without 

as much detail as you did the previous chart?

A. This is similar to the previous one. At this grade level, 

however, there are some new tests added! in particular,



102

two skills tests —  language study skills and social 

study skills.
The scales and so forth are identical. The performance 

of white pupils across the board are as follows*

In Word Knowledge, average stanlne 5*6$ in Reading, 5»5;

In Spelling, 5A; in Language Total, 5«3l In Language Study 

Skills, 5.9; in Arithmetic Computation, 5*9; in Arithmetic 

Problem Solving & Concepts, 5-9? in Social Studies Information, 

5.0; in Social Studies Study Skills, 5*3; and in Science,

5.8.
For Negro pupils the scores are, respectively, 2.3;

3.0; 3*0; 2.75 3-2; 3-8; 3*75 3-0; 3.^5 and 3.^.
Q. nv>-t« is the aame grading scale that was used in the preceding

exhibit?
A. Exactly, and another feature of the stanlne is that the score 

itself is directly comparable from subject area to subject 

area; in other words, a score of 5 in Reading represents per­

formance on that section of the test that would be at the same 

level, for example, as a score of 5*0 in Science. In addition, 

it is comparable from grade level to grade level. An average 

of 5 one year, say, in the 5th grade and an average of 5 the 

following year in the 6th grade represents Identical perfor­

mance on this kind of thing.

Q. That would indicate the normal growth of the youth from one 

year to the next year if he retains the same stanlne level?

A. If the stanlne level remains static, that represents an



average year*a growth, whatever it might —  at vhat level 

It might have been, it has remained there.

Q,. Vhat does this show with reference to white students, with 

reference to the national norm?

A. Similar to the 4th grade picture, it shows that for white 

pupils performance in all ten stress of this battery of tests 

was at the national average or above, and in all Instances was 

below the national average far colored people.

Q. And this test, I believe you testified, is administered to all 

students in the 5th grade area?

A. That is correct.

Q. X show you another graph and ask you if you recognise that?

A . X do.
Q. It is labeled "Metropolitan Achievement Test 1963 Grade 6." .

Is the information appearing thereon information supplied by 

you? As a result of this testing?

A. It is.

Q. MR. C A m m u  We'd like to offer this as Exhibit 5.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit Mo. 5)

Q. I will ask you to explain this particular graph.

A. This is similar to the graph for 5th graders. The testa, 

sub-test^ involved are identical! the same scales are 

used, and the average performances are as follows:

For white pupils, Word Knowledge, 5.9j Reading 5-9; 

Spelling, 5.9i language Total, 5.8; Language Study



104

Skills, 6,2} Arithmetic Computation, 6.0) Arithmetic Problem 

Solving & Concepts, 6.3) Social Studies Information, 5.8) 

Social Studies Study Skills, 5.9) and Sclenoe, 5.9*
The average scores for Negro pupils, respectively, are 

2.4) 2.8) 3.2) 2.4; 5.0) 3.1) 3*2) 5-0) 3.2) and 2.9.
Here again we see that the average performance in all 

subject areas tested here for white pupils is well above the 

national average, and for Negroes, below the national average.

Q. Is the same test given to all the 6th grade pupils in this

district?

A. That*s correct.
Q. «t%i1» is the same testimony you would bo giving about this 

particular graph as about the two previous graphs?

That is correct.
I show you another graph which is labeled "Metropolitan 

Achievement 1963, Grade 7." Do you recognise that?

Yes, I do.
Are the figures and information shown thereon figures supplied

by you?

A. They are,
MR. CAHNADft.: Ve offer this as Exhibit 6.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendants Exhibit No.6) 

Q. With reference to this exhibit, would you explain to us again 

—  and I believe it would be more clear if you would take 

each one of the grades aa you go along to show the results

of these tests.



105
A. I will. The same scale is used. This is the same battery of 

tests that have been previously spoken to.

Performances here are as follows:

Word Knowledge, for white pupils, 6.3, for Negro pupils,

2.91 Heading, white pupils, 5*8, Negro pupils, 2.6;

For Spelling, white pupils, 5.6, and Negro pupils, 3*1; for 

Language Total, white pupils, 5 A, and Negro pupils, 2.5j 

for Language Study Skills, white pupils, 6.2, and Negro 

pupils, 3.0; for Art throe tic Computation, white pupils, 5*9, 

and Negro pupils, 2.75 for Arithmetic Problem Solving 3s 

Concepts, white pupils, 6.1, and Negro pupils, 3*55 for 

Social Studies Information, white pupils, 5*6, and Negro 

pupils, 3.1; for Social Studies Study Skills, white pupils, 

5*6, and Negro pupils 2.9; for Science, whit© pupils, 5*8, 

and 3,0 for Negro pupils.

Here again in every sub-test the average performance of 

white pupils was above the national average, and for Negroes, 

below.
Q,. ttie same thing applies to this graph as applies to the same 

preceding graphs except that this is for the grade 7?

A, Yea, sir.

Q. I show you another graph which is entitled "Metropolitan 

Achievement Tests 1963 Grade 8." Do you recognize this?

A. I do.

Q. Is the information and the data shown thereon information and 

data supplied by you?



THE COURT: Let It be received In evidence.

(Same received In evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit no. 7)

Q. Explain this graph.

A. This graph represents performance on this achievement battery 

for 8th graders during the 1965 school year. The subject 

area© are the same as for previous years, and the 

stanine scale, of course, is identical. The performances 

for white and Negro pupils by subject areas are as follows:

In the Word Knowledge area, 6.4 for white pupils, and 

3.1 for Negro pupils; Reading, 6.1 for white pupils, 2.7 for 

Negro pupils; Spelling, 5.8 for white, and 3*4 for Negro 

pupils; language Total, 6.1 far white pupils and 2.9 for 

Negro pupils; language Study Skills, 6.2 for white pupils, 3.0 

for Negro pupils; Arithmetic Computation, 6.2 for white pupils, 

2.7 far Negro pupils; Arithmetic Problem-Solving & Concepts,

6.5 for white pupils and 3-3 for Negro pupils; Social Studies 

Infcaaation, 6.2 for white pupils, 3*1 for Negro pupils; in 

Social Studies Study Skills, 5.9 for white pupils, and 3.3 
for Negro pupils; Science, 6.2 for white pupils, end 3.0 for 

Negro pupils.

Here again in every sub-test the average performance 

of white pupils was above the national average; wherein the 

performance of Negro pupils in every sub-test area was below 

the national average.

MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 7*



Q. As I understand it, Dr. Barker, In all these Metropolitan 

Achievement tests which you say you have given and have 

testified to of the 4th through. 8th grades, the national norm 

is 5.0?

A. That is correct.

Q. In every instance the average of the white pupils has been equal 

to or above the national norm, .whereas the average for the Negro 

has been less than the national norm?

A. That is correct.

Q. Nov, with reference to all of these achievement tests —  that 

is, the 4th through 8th grades —  are you familiar with 

That such a graph would show for the years *6l, *62 and *65?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. What do they show?

A. They show essentially at all grade levels the same pattern as 

do these for the fall of 1965 tests.

Q. Has there been any change at all that you have been able to 

tell since you have been in this district?

A, Not that I am able to tell.

Q. Dr. Barker, I show you another chart or graph which has been 

labeled "Jackson, Mississippi, College Qualification Test 

1965 Grade 11." Is the data and information appearing thereon 

data and information furnished by you?

A. It is.

Q. Is it true and correct aa presented thereon?

A. It ia.

107



his testimony.

THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.

(Same was received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No 8)

Q. Dr. Barker, the first graph that you testified to was the 

Beadiness Test far 1st gradersj then the next, the Mental 

Intelligence Quotient Earned on SEA. Primary Ability Test? That's 

correct, isn't It?
.-..V V ‘ .£'*:.>■ "• V v ? '-  > ’ i "  ' "■ ' ' Vy , v  ' , ■’ ' , “ . .

A. Primary Mental Ability Test. Yes.

Q. All right. Now, you have previously been testifying of the 

achievement tests for the 4th through the 8th grades?

A. Yes, sir.

Q, Now, you said you did not take any achievement tests

subsequent to the 8th grade that is similar to those that 

you have testified to for the 4th through 8th grade?

A. Not as required or not in our basic testing program, no.

Q. Now, what tests do you give to your 11th or 12th graders?

A. W© administer in the spring to all 11th graders a test 

battery called the College Qualification Test. This 

instnaaent is a combination of both acquired knowledge and 

verbal and numerical ability. It was designed as a predictor 

of success in college.

Q. Did you give that test in 1965?

Q  MR. CANNADAi We'd like to offer this as Exhibit 8 to



109
Q.« I new call your attention to the graph or chart Just intro­

duced as an exhibit to your testimony and ask if you would 
explain this chart to the Court?

A. The score that is provided by this instrument is percentile.

I an sure we are familiar with that kind of score.

The areas that are tested, that were tested, are Verbal, 

Numerical, and Information Total score as yielded from the 

two additional areas, which are Information pertaining to 

Science and Information pertaining to Social Studies. There 

is also yielded a Total score, percentile score, for the 
entire battery.

The performance on white pupils in the Jackson public 

schools is represented by the red broken line that you see 

In the upper part of the chart. The performance of the Negro 

pupils is represented by the blue broken line. Those per­

formances during this last fall were as follows:

—  With scores given as percentiles on the national 

norm table —  For white pupils in the Verbal area, a mean 

percentile score of 58.7;for Negro pupils, 17.8.

Q. Give us what the national norm is, or is there such on 
test?

A. The national norm on percentile score for all tests is 50.

For the numerical test, the mean percentile performance 

for white pupils was 60.0, and for Negro pupils, 27.6. The 

Information Total mean scores were, for white pupils, 61.2, 

and for Negro pupils, 25*5. The performance on Science Infor­

mation for white pupils was 56.9, and for Negro pupils, 27.5.



no
Par Information Social Studies the average percentile performance 

was 62.7 for white pupils, and 20.0 for Negroes. TOe Total 

score, percentile score, was 61.2 for white pupils and 

20.7 for Negro pupils.
Q. Dr. Barker, based on your experience in this district, is the 

result of this test similar to the results in previous years?

A, They are. The pattern is essentially the same for the years 

1961, '62 and'63.

You have been testifying concerning these charts, 1 c a n  your 

particular attention to the first chart, which was labeled 

"Mean Intelligence Quotients Earned on the SRA Primary 

Abilities Tests." Have you prepared a chart showing result 

of these tests in a graph form?

Yes, I have.
I have placed a chart before you. Do you recognise that chart 

as a presentation of those figures?

A, I do«

MR. CAKNADA.: We offer this as Exhibit 9.

TOE CODIRT: Let it be received in evidence.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No.9i 

Q, Dr. Barker, would you explain this chart to us?

A. This chart shows for grades 2, 5> 8 and 10 the

mean performance during Pan, 1965, of white pupils in 
this school system and Negro pupils in this school system.

This vertical scale to your left is IQ estimate. The hori­

zontal scale pertains to grade level. We see that Grade 2



Ill

tor the present school year, white pupils, has a mean score 

of 104.7, which has been previously indicated on another chart. 

We see going throughout the grades that are tested —  that is, 

2, 5, 8 and 10, that this ability level stays relatively 

constant.
lhe broken line in the lower part of the graph represents 

ability level or scholastic aptitude level of Ifegro pupils,

Fall *63, in the same grade level, 2, 5, 8 and 10. We Bee 
hare a  decline starting at 90.6 for second graders, and 

ending at 77*7 for tenth graders.

Q. Dr. Barber, based on your experience, is this pattern similar 

to what your records show for preceding years?

A » It is.
Q. Till a particular graph, along with others, deal with, as we 

have said, ability or IQ. Would you explain to the Court the 

difference between this chart or the tests that are given in 

connection with these four grades, 2nd, 5th, 8th and 10th, 

as contrasted to the achievement graphs we have just shown that 

are given from 4th through 8th grades.

A, The Primary Mental Abilities tests are a measure of scholastic 

aptitude or readiness to do school work in the immediate 

future, regardless of the grade level at which they are 

administeredi whereas, achievement tests provide a measure 

of the level of accomplishment in the various subject areas that 

are embodied in the battery.

/



112

Q. So as to tills particular exhibit to which you attention is 

nov directed,, this measures or attempts to measure the 

ability of the student to learn?

A. that’s correct.
q . As distinguished from vhat he is actually doing in his grade?

A. Correct.
Q. I call your attention, to the original exhibits pertaining to 

your achievement tests, in which you have testified and 

identified the graphs showing the various subject matters 

from 4th through 8th grades. Have you prepared charts picking 

up the information from those five grades and putti rg them on a 

graph to demonstrate how the whites and Negro pupils have 

performed in this district?

A. I have.
q . x show you here a graph, which is labeled 'Vord Khovledge 

Metropolitan Achievement Test.” Do you recognise this?

A. I do.
q . ia thin a demonstration, a showing, of the information contained 

on the previous charts to which you testified?

A. It is.
MR. GANHAEA: We offer this as Exhibit 10.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 10) 

Q. Nov, Dr. Barker, would you explain this chart?

A. We have shown on previous charts the performance of white 

and Negro pupils per grade level for any given chart. This 

chart shows the performance at all grade levels tested.
<7



Q. Which srade levels are those?
A* 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 for this particular chart. We show the 

average performance in the sub-test area of Word Knowledge 

for tiiite pupils and far Negro pupils. The scale is the 

stanine coale.
Q« what does it shew with reference to the white pupils in the 

national norm?
A. It shows with reference to the white pupils that in the 

Word Knowledge area at 4th grade level an average performance 

of 5.7 staninej 5th grade, 5-6; 6th grade, 5*9; 7th grade,

6.3; and 8th grade, 6.4.

Q, What do you show for Negroes?
A. For Negro pupils it shows average performance, grade 4, 3*2; 

grade 5, 2.3i grade 6, 2.4; grade 7# 2.9* and grade 8, 3.1.

Q. Now, Dr. Barker, in the exhibit: that you have Just previously- 

testified to, which was marked Exhibit 9, you testified that it 

showed that at the 2nd grade they were much closer together, 

the Negro and white pupils, and as they progressed to the 10th 

grade, Insofar as their ability to learn is concerned, the 

difference between them widened.

A, lfcat's correct.
Q,. That is upon your IQ or Ability to Learn tests given?

A. That's correct.

Q. Now, what does this chart that we are now testifying to,

Exhibit 10, show with reference tothe two races insofar as 

the Word Knowledge is concerned?



A. It shows that the performance of white pupils increases slightly 

throughout the gawde level in the area of Word Knowledge, and 

that the performance of Negro pupils generally Is such as to 

reflect that they are ’’holding their ovn1’ on this kind of 

thing.
Q* Dr. Barker, I show you another chart which is similar to the on© 

to which you have just testified. Shis purports to be a 

chart for Reading for Metropolitan Achievement Test for *625.

Do you recognize this chart?

A . X do«
Q. Did you fhmlshthe inform tion being inserted thereon?

&. I did.
MR. CAHNADM We offer this as Exhibit Number* 11.

(Same received In evidence and marked as Defendant’s Exhibit No. 11)

Q, Now, would you explain this graph?

A. gits is mean performance, grades 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 on the 

Metropolitan Achievement Test for present school year for 

white pupils and Negro pupils. The chart shows that for white 

pupils beginning with Grade 4 with an average performance 

of 5.4, Going across to Grade 8 with an average performance 

of 6.1, a slight increase in performance level throughout that 

grade Interval.
For Negro pupils beginning with a performance of 2.7 at 

the 4th grade and 2.7 for the 8th grade, it shows a fairly 

constant level of performance throughout the grade intervals.

Q. Is this the same inf oration actually that was taken from other



preceding charts Introduced?

A. It Is.

Q. I show you another graph, which Is labeled "Spelling - 

Metropolitan Achievement Test, Mean Stanine by Grade" 

and ask you if you recognize this.

A. I do.

Q. Did you furnish the Information and data that is reflected 

thereon?

A. I did.

MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit Number 12.

THE COURT: Let It be received.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant*s Exhibit No. 12)

Q. Dr. Barker, would you explain this chart to the Court?

A. This chart is taken froma previous chart, Metropolitan

Readiness Test, and it shows average performance in the area 

of spelling during grades 4, 5* 6, 7 and 8 for the present 

school year 1963. Those performances were as follows;

For white pupils, beginning with a performance level of 

5.9 at the fourth grade, 5*4 at the fifth, 5*9 at the 

sixth, 5*6 at seventh, and 5.8 at grade 8, a fairly constant 

performance level among those various grade levels.

For colored pupils or Negro pupils this shows an average 

performance starting with 2.6 at grade four, 5.0 at grade five, 

3.2 at grade six, 3.1 at grade 7# 5.4 at grade 8, a slight 

tendency to rise with grade level for Negro pupils.

Q. This is the same information reflected on previous charts that



A. That is correct.
q . x show you another chart which has been labeled "language, 

Total, Metropolitan Achievement Test," and ask you if you 

recognize that.

A. Ido.
Q,. Is the information and data shown thereon information and 

data furnished by you?

A. It Is.
MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit Number 13

THE COURT: Let It be received in evidence.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant*8 Exhibit No. 13)

Q. Dr. Barker, I will ask you to explain this chart.
A. This is a chart showing the Language, Total, performance on the 

Metropolitan Achievement Test, Grades 4 through 8, for the 

1963-64 school year. The white performance of white pupils for 

grade 4 at average stanine 5«5i grade 5# 5»3> grade 6, 5 «8| 

grade 7, 5.4; and grade 8, 6.1, showing overall a relatively 

constant performance level in these various grade levels.

It shows for Negro pupils beginning with grade 4 an average 

performance of 2.3J grade 3# 2*7> grade 6, 2.4; grade f, 2.5i 

and grade 8, 2.9, a reasonably constant performance level 

throughout the five grade level.
Q. These are showing that the two groups, as such, are progressing 

grade by grade in accordance with what would be anticipated 

based on their previous years* showing?

A. They are showing that the performance is remaining for both



117

groups relatively constant.
Q, Dr. Barker, I show you another chart which is labeled

"Language Study Skills, Metropolitan Achievement Test,” and 

ask you if you recognize this?

A. X do.
Q. la the data and information contained thereon data and 

information furnished by you?

A. It is.
MR. G A M A T A : We offer this as Exhibit 14.

THE COURT: Let it be received.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant’s Exhibit No. 14)

Q. Will you explain this graph to the Court?

A. This is the results of another subject area test,

Language Study Skills, that shows for the 1963 school year

the average performance of pupils In the grade 5 ---- And I

make note here, this test is not given in the 4th grade battery; 

consaqaently the broken 11 nes do not run out to 4th grade 

level, but comae nee with grade 5* —  The performance of 

white pupils was as follows:

Grade 5, 5.9; grades 6, 7 and 8, 6.2 in each of those 

grades.
For Negro pupils, 3*2 at the 5th grade; and at grades 

6, 7 and 8, 3.0 for those.

Q. Again a relatively stable performance by both groups?

A. It’s relatively constant throughout those four grade levels.

Q. And the national norm is 5.0?

A, That is correct.



118

Q. Dr. Barker, I give you here another chart, which is labeled 

"Arithmetic Components," and ask you if you recognize that. 

A« X do.

Q. Did you furnish the data and information appearing thereon? 

A. I did.

MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 15.

THE COOHP: let it be received in evidence.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant^ Exhibit No. 15)

Q. Will you explain this chart?

A. This reflects performance in the sub-test area of arithmetic 

computation, commencing with the 4th grade, present school 

year; the average performance of white pupils at 4 grade 

was 5*0; at 5th grade, 5.9; at 6th grade, 6.0; at 7th grade,

5.9; and at 8th grade, 6.2. In this particular area there has 

been throughout the grade level a slight trend to increase.

For Negro pupils the performance was as follows:

At 4th grade, 2.2; at 5th grade, 3.8; at 6th grade, 3.1; 

at 7th grade, 2.7; and at 8th grade, 2.7* — Fairly constant

or, if any trend, a slight rise.

Q. The same observation could be made as to this chart as to the 

others in tills particular series?

A. That is correct.

Q. I show you another chart, which is labeled "P. S. & C.

Metropolitan Achievement Test," and ask you if you recognize 

that.

A. I do.



A. It is.
ME. GAMMA.: We offer this as Exhibit 16.

•THE COURTS let it be received in evidence.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 16)

q . Dr. Barker, would you explain tills graph to the Court?

A. is the sub-test problem-solving and concepts for the

present school year, grades 4 through 8, lor white and 

Negro pupils.
Tbe performance for white pupils was as follows:

At grade k, 5A  for white pupils; at grade 5, 5*9l at 

grade 6, 6.3; at grade 7» 6.1; and at grade 8, 6.5 —  if 

anything, a slight trend to increase.
For Negro pupils, the performance was as follows:

At grade 4, 2.3; at grade 5# 3*7$ at grade 6, 3*2; 

at grade 7, 3.5; at grade 8, 3.3. There is a tendency of 

remaining reasonably constant beyond this grade level.

q . rphe same observation could be made with reference to this 

graph as with reference to the the graphs to which you have 

just testified?

A. Correct.
q . Dp. Barker, I show you another graph,labeled "Social Studies, 

Metropolitan Achievement Test," and ask you if you recognize

that.

A. I do.
Q. Is the data and information appearing thereon data and

information furnished by you?



A. It is.
MR. CARMDA .1 We offer this as Exhibit 17.

THE COURT: let it be received in evidence.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 17)

Q. Dr. Barker, would you explain this graph to the Court?

A. is a sub-test, Social Studies. The comments pertaining

to the identification of it given for the previous chart 

hold for this.
The average performance of white pupils: Grade 4, 5«0; 

g r a d e ----—  I'm sorry. I retract that last statement.

The average performance for white pupils beginning with 

grade 5 as follows:
Grade 5, 5.0; grade 6, 5.8; grade 7, 5.6; and grade 8,

6*2 —  a trend to increase throughout the four grade levels 

involved.
The average performance for Negro pupils was as follows:

For grade 5, 3.0; grade 6, 3-0; grade 7» 3»lJ grade 8,
3.1. Here the tendency has been to maintain a relatively 

constant level of achievement.

q . And the same comments would be made with reference to this 

chart as is true with reference to the preceding charts in 

this group?

A. That is correct.
q . i show you another chart,which is labeled "Social Studies,

Study Skills, Metropolitan Achievement Test," and ask you

information furnished by you?



121

if you recognize this.

A* X do•
Q. Is the data and Information appearing thereon data and 

Information furnished by you?

A  . It is•
MR. CANNAE&: We offer this as Exhibit 18.

TEE COURT: let It be received in evidence.

(Sane received in evidence and marked as Defendant13 Exhibit No.18) 

Q. Dr. Barker, would you explain this graph to the Court?

A. This graph reflects performance in the Social Studies Skills 

area. Other comnents pertaining to the graph itself would 

apply as made with respect to the previous charts.

The performances, beginning with Grade 5* for white 

pupils were as follows: Grade 5, 5*3$ grade 6, 5«9) grade J,

5.6; grade 8, 5.9 —  a relatively constant pattern; if any­

thing, a slight trend to increase.

For Negro pupils, the average performances were:

For grade 5, 3»^J for ferade 6, 5.2; for grade 7t 2.9; 

for grade 8, 3.5 —  a fairly constant or level pattern of

achievement.

Q,. The same observations could be made with reference to this 

chart as the preceding charts in this group?

A. That*s correct. ^

Q,. I show you one more chart, that is labeled, "Science,

Metropolitan Achievement Test," and ask #ou if you recognize

that?



122

Q. Is the data and Information appearing thereon data and Infor­

mation furnished by you?

A. It Is *

A. I do.

MR. CANDIAEA: We offer this as Exhibit 19.

THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.

(Same received In evidence and marked Ad Defendant' s Exhibit No. 19) 

Q,. Dr. Barker, would you explain this test?

This is the tenth test of the battery. The performance of 

white pupils, beginning with grade 5* In the area of science 

were as follows:

5.8j grade 6, 5.9; grade 7# 5.8; and grade 8, 6.2.

The average performances of Negro pupils were as 

follows:

Grade 5, 5.4; grade 6, 2.9; grade 7, 5.0j and grade 8,

5.0. There is a reasonably constant pattern of achievement 

level of performance for both white and Negro pupils.

I believe you testified that these patterns as shown by these 

series of charts are substantially the same patterns as that of 

prevtus years?

That is correct.

MR. CAHKADA: 13iat is all we have.

THE COURT: Any direct examination by any of the other

defendants or by the interveners?

MR. SHELL: Yes, we have acme questions.



ME. 12SQ3SAED; Should w© precede the plaintiff?
THE COURTs Yea, I think so.

DIRECT EXM2HATICK
BY m ,  IEOKAKDt
Q. (to the charts you have shown us, I notice that these U n * «

occasionally go up and occasionally go down, but In each of these 

1 areas they appear to have a pattern of their own. Is this & 

constant pattern by subject? In other sards, are all the 

subjects the sane, or do they differ in these charts? You 

notice, sometimes the lines diverge and sometimes they 

converge, and sometimes they Just aeam to have a pattern of 

their own. Are they consistent, or are they merely teat 
differences?

A. You can have various answers at a given grate level,from ant 

grade to another, because in sea® respects you are dealing with 

slightly different performance levels. Of course, many other 

factoid 'nter into it too. But Just the mere fact that 

an average etanine score of 2.3 for one grade level and 2.4 

for the next grade level, that la of little significance, as 

I see it, vlth respect to planning the programs of the pupils.

Q* Well, are there any —  In taking your past six or seven exhitifca, 

you hove sea® in which your whit c students are increasing at a 

tin® when your Ifegro students are holding steady. You have bob®  

in which the white students are decreasing, and the Negroes are 

increasing. You have others which appear to diverge eocrxxily 

and others to hold parallel. What I am asking Is, arc these 

mere test differences, or do they reflect diffamxses in 

interest and subject ability of the pupils?



124

A. Veil, we do, in the tost results from the last four years, do 

have a consistent pattern, whatever that might be, with respect 

to the various subject areas that are tested. Now, as to 

what accounts for these trends or differences, I am not 

qualified to answer.

Q. I wasn’t asking that. I am merely asking what you have 

answered. There is a consistent pattern?

A. We have not made an analysis with respect to the particular 

areas in which these trends exist, as to what they are, nor as

to why they exist.

Dr. Barker, tell me one thing: I notice that on your SRA

Primary Mental Abilities test you had a constant divergence, 

year by year, between the white and Negro schools 

That is correct.

How do you measure achievement tests on the Metropolitan 

Achievement tests in terms of using the ability of the 

individual involved? Is there any correlation you can draw? 

For example# you have at the 2nd grade on your exhibit for 

the Primary Mental Abilities test 106 for whites and 94 for

Negroes.

A. Yes.

Q. Nov, presumably those two groups on the average would not 

achieve precisely the same, while attending the second 

grade. Is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q,. Is there any correlation you can make to find out whether you



are teaching them up to their ability?
I fcMnif the test results show quite clearly that throughout the 

grade level the Negro pupil here in the Jackson public 

schools becomes mare and more what we call an over-achiever. 

Now, the word -—
Would you explain that?
Yes. When we talk about achieving at expected level or 

under-achieving or over-achieving, w© normally, in the 

educational field, base primarily this reference point 

as aptitude or ability to perform. Now, if a pupil has low 

ability, relatively, or if a group of pupils have low 

ability, then it is reasonable to expect typically that 

performance likewise will be low because,after all, the 

ability test itself is the best predictor we have through 

standardised testing to predict achievement in the subject 

area. Now, if a pupil is performing, or if a group of pupils 

is performing below what you might expect with respect to 

their ability, then they are unde:?-achieving. On the other 

hand, if they are performing beyond that level at which you 

would expect with respect to their ability, they are 

over-achievers, ihese data show clearly to me that our Negroes 

in the Jackson public schools are over-achievers, or else 

their achievement level would drop with an increase in grade 

level, as does the scholastic aptitude score.

Look at the last exhibit on top there, the one on Science, and



if you will look at the grade running from the 5th to the

126

8th, you have a relatively straight line for the Negro child. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How, during that period of time, as I understand your

exhibit on the Primary Mental Abilities Test, relatively

norm.

A. It would be expected that that would happen.

Q. So that where it Is, I take it, shewn on a level as it is 

here, you have in fact held them up to a level in spite of 

the dropping off of the mental abilities as shown by the 

SRA test?

speaking, the Negro children in Jackson got a lower and lower 

rating? Is that correct?

A. On the intelligence test, yes.

Q. So that if the achievement here had followed the dropping 

on the mental abilities test, the SRA. test, then this line 

would also have dropped, because it's against the national

A. That *s correct.

Q,. And is that difference you are talking about now over- 

achievement?

A. That is correct.

Q. In other words, as you are now testifying, you are not only 

making full use of their abilities, but you are holding them 

up to a grade standard in this system beyond that which the 

SRA test would tend to show?

A. That seems abundantly clear to me.



127
Q. Thank you, Doctor.

THE COURT: Are there further questions by the

defendant?

MR. w a r m s :  No, sir.

THE COURT: Very veil. Cross examine.

MR. BELL: Your Honor, we are not going to cross examine

this witness. As a matter of fact, we would make a proper 

move, a general objection or move to strike the testimony.

I would Ilk® to say a word or two as to why we are not going 

to cross examine this witness and the basis of our objection 

to this type of testimony.

Now, the plaintiffs don’t have any information available 

to them that would enable us to determine whether all of these 

charts and all of this data Dr. Barker has given to us Is 

true or not. We would hope that most of it is substantially 

true and accurate. And to the extent that it Is true, the 

plaintiffs submit that it supports the opinion of sons of 

the plaintiffs who testified earlier tills moral ng that the 

products of the Negro schools are Inferior to those of the 

whites, that the education that the Negro children are 

receiving is not as good as that being made available to 

the students in the white schools.

Now, as I indicated earlier this morning in my opening 

statement, the Brown decision of 2954 said that even if the 

tangible factors of the school are equal, that separate 

schools violate the plaintiffs’ constitutional rights®

In this case and with this testimony, the defendants have



beyond any doubt either than, one, the Negro schools are 

inferior, in which case desegregation would be required 

even under the old Plessy-Ferguson doctrine; or, two, they 

have shown that Negroes are as a group, as a race, as a class, 

inferior as far as education is concerned. And this second 

concept, of course, flies in the face of all other state laws, 

the United States Constitution, and, if we may submit, common 

sense.

The issue in this case, as the Courts have previously 

held, is whether of not the schools are segregated; and if 

the schools are segregated, as this circuit has said 

frequently, then what kind of plan of desegregating should 
be brought in, and when it should take effect.

We have attempted to show that the schools are segregated, 

and it appears that the defendants admit that this is so 

and are here attempting to justify that segregation. Shis, 

as we also indicated this morning, is not novel nor new, and 

we support our general objection to continuing with this type 

of testimony and refer the Court to the early Fifth Circuit 

decision —  relatively early, back In 1957 —  in one of the 

phases of the New Orleans school case litigation. The title 

there was Orleans Parish School Board vs. Bush, 242 Fed.2d 

156, at Page 165, where the Court reviewed parts of the 

record tending to show that Negroes as a class were less 

able to learn than their white counterparts, and therefore 

a classification based on race was justifiable. The Court



129
said that it was interesting that there had been suggestion 

by the defendant board of a classification of students based 

on ability to learn, and they felt if such a classification 

had been suggested that the court would have no objection 

to it and didn’t feel the Constitution would have any 

objection; but as to the classification based on race, the 

court said —  and I quotes
"it is unthinkable that an arbitrary classification by 

race because of the more frequent identification of one race 

than another with certain undesirable qualities would be 

a reasonable classification."

For that reason, Your Honor, we would generally object to 

all this type of testimony and have no cross examination.

OHE COURT: At this time I will overrule the objection.

You may step down.
(Witness excused)

(Whereupon the court was recessed for ten minutes)

After-Recess

MR. WATKINS: We'd like to call John Bell Williams.

JOHN BRIL WILLIAMS, called as a witness and having been duly 

sworn, testified as follows:
DIREC TEXANnew[•KM

BY MR. WATKINS:

Q. Please state your name.

A. John Bell Wil.ll.aRB



130

Q. Your age?

A. 45, I believe.

Q,. Where do you live?

A. My home Is In Raymond, Mississippi.

Q. What Is your educational background?

A. I graduated from hi#i school at Raymond, Mississippij graduated 

from Junior College at Raymond, Mississippi; and attended the 

University of Mississippi and the Jackson, Mississippi, School 

of Law. I am a lawyer by profession, a member of the

Mississippi State Bar.

Q. Are you a member of Congress?

A, I am.
Q. What district do you represent?

A. At present I represent the district designated as the Third 

Congressional District of the State of Mississippi.

Q. Does that include the City of Jackson?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long have you been a Mississippi representative in 

Congress?
.A. I took the oath of office on January 3rd, 1947. That makes, 

I believe I ’m in tny 18th year of service.

Q. Congressman, please state the congressional comaittees of 

which you are a member, together with the length of time 

you have been amember of each committee.

A. I am a member of the House Committee on Interstate and

Foreign Commerce, and I have been a member of that committee



since my appointment to that committee in 1951* I am also 

a  member of the committee on the District of Columbia, and 

I believe that I vent on that committee In 1955* as well as 

I recall.
q . Please tell the Court whether, as a member of the Gocmittee 

on the District of Columbia, you have had occasion to make a 

study and investigation of the public schools of the District 

of Columbia.
A. In 1956 by direction of the Comittee on the District of

Columbia, & special subcommittee was set up to investigate —  

May I make reference to the exact title?—  to investigate 

public school standards and conditions and juvenile 

delinquency in the District of Columbia. The chairman of 

that committee was Honorable James C. Davis of the State of 

Georgia. I was appointed as the ranking Democratic member 

of that committee, and serving with us on that committee were 

Honorable Woodrow W. Jones of the State of North Carolina, 

with the Republican members Honorable A. L. Miller of the 

State of Nebraska; Honorable Joel T. Broyhill of the State 

of Virginia; and Honorable DeWitt S. HJyde of the State of 

Maryland.

I served as a member of that committee, and we took tes­

timony from a number of witnesses in the District of 

Columbia Public School System. I believe that we took some 

two weeks of testimony which covered some five hundred pages 

of transcript.



Q. Do you have there & copy of the report of that camlttee 
on its findings?

A, I do.

HR. WA.TKH5S: If it please the Court, I ’d like to offer the 

cocmittee report in evidence as an exhibit in this case.

MR. BELL; Your Honor, ve are going to object to the 

admission of that report as completely Irrelevant to any 

of the issues involved in this case. The issue here primarily 

is -whether or not the schools in the city of Jackson are segre­

gated as far as race 1b concerned. What the situation in 

Washington is, what the findings of this particular coranittee 

are are completely irrelevant to that, as far as we have been 

able to find from the pleadings.

HR. WAIKERS: We expect to show that the situation is 

comparable in that the percentages of population are sub­

stantially the same, and we expect to show by this witness 

and by the committee*a report what happened with bo£h races 

as a result of the integration of the schools in Washington,

D. C., in all phases, from questions of deportment, from 

scholastic achievement, on up aid down the line, how a good 

school system for both races deteriorated as a result of the 

integration of those schools. And it is a matter that is 

carefully documented and itemised. This witness knows of itj 

he participated in it, and this Congressional reports comments 

on it and brings out step by step, and it is competent to show 

what will happen to the schools of this district if this Court



f

requires them to be Integrated as were the District of 

Columbia schools.
MR. BELL: I add a further objection, with all due regard

to the Congressman. I must confess that I have never had 

a Congressman testifying In any school cases in which I ’ve 

been involved. It is somswhat of a different experience.

But t M R particular report, if aimed at proving what counsel 

indicates he hopes to prove by It, is certainly further 

incompetent by reason of the fact that It is a document that 

has been subject to a great deal of controversy, with It being 

hailed as an outstanding document by those who wish to preserve 

segregation and condemned heartily as a political document by 

those who believe the desegregation is the way the school 

system Should be run. For a further reason, we would suggest 

that the document, testimony based on it, are Incompetent to 

this case.
tot?. CO0ET: I will overrule the objection. I think the

obje ction goes to the weight, rather than the admissibility.

The document is authorized by a resolution of Congress to be 

made, and I think under those circumstances it is one of the 

facets that might be considered by the Court in determining 

the Issue here; so I overrule the object43a and will let It 

be received.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant’s Exhibit No. 20)

MR. WATKINS: Your Honor, the Congressman states that I

took h** copy away from him, and he has some notes he has

135



added in pencil and pen on it. May I have & copy that has not 

been narked on in any respect substituted for the exhibit, 

rather than the one the Congressman has?

THE COURT: Yes.

(Sane was substituted)

TOE WITNESS; Would you like me to Identify that as being 

&  true and correct copy?

MR. WATKINS: Yes.

See if this is a correct copy of the committee1 s report.

This is a copy of the report of the subcoomittee 

following the investigation.

MR. WATKINS: Then we offer this copy.

(Same previously marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 20)

Please tell the Court whether prior to 195*1- and the Brown 

decision by the Supreme Court the schools of the District of 

Columbia were segregated or integrated.

The District of Columbia operated a segregated school system, 

Division A being the white schools and Division B being the 

colored schools. Tae schools operated under a single school 

board, under a single superintendent of schools, but each division 

had its own superintendent and own principals, its own teachers; 

so in response to your question, the answer is that prior to 

1954 separate school systems were operated.

■hen. were the schools of the District of Columbia integrated?

The schools of the District of Columbia were integrated in the 

fall of the school year beginning in 1954. I believe that was



some five or six months following the Supreme Court*s 

Decision of May 17th.

Q. What effect, if any, did integration of the schools have on the 

size of the white population In the District?

A. I think it is quite evident that the act of integrating

the public school system in the District of Columbia brought 

about a mass exodus of white residents from the District of 

Columbia into the suburbs, which at that time were tdally 

segregated.

As a matter of fact, if it*s permissible, I have in my 

hand the population figures as shown by the 1950 census 

and the i960 census, which show that in 1950 the white 

population of the District of Columbia which amounted to some 

65 percent of the total population was 517,865 people. The 

Negro population of the District of Columbia in 1950 was 

280,805. By I960, six years following the integration of the 

schools, the white population had declined by some 

172,602 people to a total of 5^5,265, while the Negro population 
had risen by 120,954 people to a total of 411,757.

So the ratio of Negroes to whites rose from 55 percent 

colored and 65 percent white in 1950 to a figure of 55 percent 
colored and 45 percent white in i960.

Q. And by 1956 what effect had integration had on the ' 

percentage of white and Negroes in the schools?

A. May I make reference to the school report,which contains those 
figures?



136

Q. Yes.

A. I believe I have that here in more condensed form. 

Q. All right.
Of a total enrollment in the public school system of the 

District of Columbia in 1954 —  that was the first year of 

Integration —  it showed a total of 60.8 percent Negro.

Of a total enrollment of 110,041 students in 1957, that had 

risen from 60.8 percent to 71*3 percent Negro. By i960 

out of a total school population of 122,879, that had risen to 

79.6 percent Negro. Out of a total enrollment in the school 

year 1962, that's the school year Just ending, out of a total 

of 139,156 students enrolled, the total Negro population in this 

school had risen to 85.5 percent, leaving a proportion of 

85.5 percent Negro and 13•5 —  or 14.5 percent white. And 
the white population of the public school system of the

j

District of Columbia is still on the decline.

What has been the effect of integration on the scholastic 

standards on the schools of the District?

I can testify only as to the findings of the committee 

which investigated the schools in 1956 for those two years 

of integration.

My answer to that is that definitely there had been a 

lowering of standards in the public school system, which was 

admitted by the officials of the public school system.

Were national standardized educational achievement and 

IQ tests given in the schools of the district during the 1955-



1956 school year?

It was testified before the committee by the school officials 

that tests were given. Did you say achievement tests?

Yes, achievement and IQ.

Achievement and IQ tests were given.

What did the tests show with respect to the IQ's of Negro and 

white children as compared to the national average for the 

third grade?

For the third grade?

Yes, sir.

The citywide tests, third grade, California Test of Mental 

Maturity, which was an IQ test, showed that In the all white 

schools, or predominantly white schools of the District of

Columbia----Perhaps I should clarify that by spying that

In 195^ the schools sytem of the District of Columbia stopped 

keeping figures by race. It was necessary for the committee, 

in order to get the complete picture of the situation, to cate­

gorize the schools of the District of Columbia into predominantly

white and predominantly Negro and heavily integrated schools. ----

The predominantly white schools ran as high as 98 and 99 percent 

white, sad the predominantly Negro schools ran about at the 

same proportion colored. Ihe heavily Integrated schools ran 

from 55 to 65 percent of one race.

Now, in the third grade, California test of mental maturity, 

primary form, out of 10,098 third-grade pupils tested, showed 

that Group 1, which was the predominantly white school---



that*8 22 elementary schools 99 percent white —  showed 

an average IQ rating of 105, five points above the 

national average.

The Integrated group, which is group III, the average 

IQ was 96 —  between I and II —  while the second group, 

which is all colored or predominantly or 99 percent 

colored, the average IQ was 87, whioh Is thirteen points 

below the national average. So for comparison we find that 

the white schools were five points above the national average, 

while the Negro schools were thirteen points below the 

national average.

Q. Was the Stanford Achievement Test given for thatsame 

third grade?

Yes, it was.

What was the result of that?

The citywide achievement, Stanford Achievement Teat, reading 

and arithmetic, primary form J, Grade 3, composed of five 

objective tests which included paragraph meaning, word 

meaning, spelling, arithmetic reasoning, arithmetic compute- 

tion, showed that the oitywide average on these tests 

was 2.5, almost one grade below the national average.

However, when you get Into the white schools and you check 

those out, you fl rd that the grade placement, 3*1, was 

exactly on the grade average. Group II, which was the 

integrated group, brought it down to 2.2, one grade below 

the natlonalaveragej and the predominantly N e g r o ----Oh,



I*m sorry. That was the the Negro schools. Group 2 is the 

predominantly Negro. —  The integrated schools, 

grade placement, 2.6, one-half grade below the national 

average, and between Group I and Group U .

Please state whether the results of the tests given the 

5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 11th, and 12th grades were comparable 

to those of the third grade. The results.

The results were comparable, yes.

What effect did these tests have on those charged with the 

administration of the schools of the District?

They were quite surprised to find the wide disparity 

between the colored and white schools in regard, particularly, 

to achievement, as well as intelligence tests. The result was 

that they had to reorganize their school standard. It was 

necessary for them to reduce their school standards, and 

they also found it necessary, according to some of the 

teachers, to spend more time trying to keep order in the 

classroom than they were able to spend in teaching the 

children. They found it necessary, so it was testified, 

to reorganize their promotional standard, for instance, to 

to the point where the president of the school board, as well 

as I recall, testified that students were being promoted on 

the basis of age, height and weight, rather than on scholastic 

achievement.

Did the disparity between the races decrease or increase



In the higher grades?

The disparity In achievement, you mean?

Yes.

The disparity Increased as the grades went higher, and that 

is shown definitely by statistical data which was furnished to 

the committee and which was furnished by the District of 

Columbia School Board itself.

Did the schools of the District have many unusual disciplinary 
problems before integration?

It was testified that they did not have any significant 

disciplinary problems prior to integration. That was testified 

by numerous teachers, principals, and other officials of the 
District of Columbia schools.

And have there been any unusual disciplinary problems in the 
schools since integration?

Yes, sir. It was testified at one school In particular that 

It was necessary to call the police at least 25 times during 

one school year to quell disturbances and to assist in 

maintaining discipline in the school. It was testified at 

another schools that it was necessary for them to keep 

policemen patrolling the corridors. One teacher after 

another, one principal after another, testified, as I 

mentioned a moment ago, that they spent most of their time 

trying to maintain order in the classroom and found precious 

little time in which to instruct their students.



What effect—

—  To give you an example, the subject of vandalism came 

up in the schools. We found that in 1955~*56 that they 

had to put an expenditure of some —  they had to designate 

some $50,000.00 for the purpose of replacing broken windows 

in the buildings. I contacted the District of Columbia Board 

of Education and found the other day that in the current fiscal 

year, or in the current fiscal budget, a hundred thousand 

dollars is set aside for that purpose. So it appears to be on 

the increase, rather than the decrease.

What effect has this had on the teachers of the District?

Well, the teachers themselves, I think perhaps their testimony 

would provide a much better answer certainly than I could 

provide, because I simply listened to the testimony that was

given by the teachers, but many of the teachers found it desirable
*

to apply for early retirement. Others stated that they were —  

and I quote —  "nervous wrecks," and others stated that they 

were performing a most frustrating task in attempting to 

teach in these schools under these conditions.

If you would permit me to elaborate on that Just a bit,

I would read some of the testimony as it appears in this 

report.

You are now reading from the exhibit.

Excerpts from the testimony of the school personnel. This 

bdgins on page 25 of the report. I won't belabor the Court 

with reading all of this, but I would simply refer the Court



to the testimony quoted from Mr. John Paul Collins, on 

page 25:
"Fighting, including several knifings, vent on continuously. 

While such incidents had occurred occasionally in previous 

years, they became more or less commonplace following inte­

gration, to the point of creating a serious disciplinary 

problem.

“There have been more thefts at Eastern High in the last 

two years than I had known in all my thirty-odd years in the 

school system. A teacher still at Eastern...."—

This is the testimony of the former principal at Eastern 

High School.

— "A teacher still at Eastern told me recently that 

stealing is now so rife at the school that it is no longer 

practical to attempt to report all stealing incidents."...

"I heard two colored boys making obscene remarks about a whie 

girl who was passing in the hall. I promptly suspended these 

boys until such time as I could get satisfactory assurances 

from their parents that they would discontinue such conduct."...

"Prior to integration," he said, "I loved and lived with 

my work, but the problems which I encountered after integration 

has brought about a lowering of public school standards and 

student academic achievement in the District of Columbia 

public schools. It has created problems of discipline that 

have disrupted educational processes."

Other witnesses, Mrs. Katherine Reid, one of the teachers



difficult. I found it very hard to make the colored 

children do what I told them. And one day I was talking to a 

little colored girl, and one of the colored boys said, "Miss 

Reid, why don*t you stop talking to her and bat her over 

the head, the way her last teacher did," until we wondered 

if they used corporal punishment in division II." —

I believe a moment ago I referred to it as Division B, 

but it*s Division I and Division II, Division I being the 

white schools.

Mrs. Reid said, "There was constant fighting in the 

classrooms between colored and colored, and sometimes 

between colored and white. They would bat each other over 

the head with books. The teachers have become very nervous 

and upset. I am not saying all, but some have."

Mr. Arthur Storey testified along the same lines. Mr. 

Wilmer Bennett of the school system; Mrs. Dorothy Denton, 

and numerous others; Mrs. Elva Wells, the principal of 

Theodore Roosevelt High School, I believe, testified to 

very much the same thing.

All of this is in the report which has been introduced 

in evidence, I believe, and I won*t belabor the Court by 

reciting that further unless it is desired.

Q. Have there been any other developments which have come to 

your attention subsequent to the report of the committee

in one of t he schools t

"After integration the disciplinary problem vas very



144

■with reference to the schools?

A  The public school system In the District of Columbia has been 

a constant source of controversy, to say the least, in the 

District of Columbia. Numerous studies, private studies, h a w  

been made of the District public schools by private groups 

with their own personal axes to grind, but the fact remains 

that the white population of the District of Columbia

continues to flee to the States of Virginia and Maryland, 

where the schools are either all white or predominantly 

white, to escape the low standards of the schools which they 

have in the District of Columbia. As a matter of fact, the 

present superintendent, Dr. Hansen, has been under a great 

deal of fire in recent months becauseof the low standards 

that prevail and obtain in the Washington public school
system.

The Court might be interested to know that in 1955 the

operational cost of the schools on a per student basis 

was $266.00 per year per student. The figures which are 

contained in the current appropriations bills under which the 

public schools of the District of Columbia are operating 

now, when divided by the number of students in the public 

school system of the District of Columbia, shows that the 

current operating per student cost of the District of

Columbia schools has risen from the $266.00 figure in 1955

to a current figure of $477*00 per student, which is an 

increase of $211.00 per student since 1955*



A. Since the schools were integrated, yes.
MR. WATKINSs I believe that is all. Your witness.

MR. BELL: We would, Your Honor, merely renew our

objection, pointing out in support of our objection to this 

testimony, that the report shows that its members —  and 

there were six persons on the subcommittee —  and five of 

the six, JaraBs C. Davis of Georgia, John Bell Williams of 

Mississippi, Woodrow W. Jones of North Carolina, Joel T. 

Broyhill of Virginia, and DeWitt S. Hyde of Maryland —  

five of the six cam© and were representing states which 

were directly affected by the 195^ Supreme Court Decision —  

that is, that decision would have required a change in the 

method of the operating of schools in the states from which 

these men came.
Further, there was only one other man who came from a 

state where the decision of *54 would not have a direct 

effect, and he was A. L. Miller.
Now, it is, we feel, significant in amplifying our earlier 

objection, that two men, Congressman Miller and Congressman 

Hyde, —  Congressman Miller from Nebraska, and Congressman 

Hyde from Maryland —  did not sign the report which the 

other members signed, and they stated as their reasons the 

following:
"Since we have not signed the majority report submitted 

by the staff of the subcommittee, we desire to offer the

Q. Since the schools were integrated?



following observations:

"l, We have carefully read the hearings, report, and the 

recomnendations made by the staff and the subcommittee.

There is much in the report that is factual. The statistics 

speak for themselves, and it is not a record of which anyone 

can be proud. The report is provocative. It deals with the 

sordid, headline items almost entirely. We have a feeling that 

a more objective approach would uncover some good things in 

the educational and social life of the District schools.

n2. The report seems to blame all of the educational defi­

ciencies in our school system entirely on the efforts toward
\

integration. We cannot believe that everything that is wrong 

with the educational system can be blamed on integration.

It is quite probable that many of the unsatisfactory conditions 

brought to light by the investigation may have been caused 

by conditions that existed prior to integration, and are due 

to factors other than integration.

"3. In a close reading of the hearings, we must cans to 

the conclusion that the technical staff presented leading ques­

tions to a selected group of witnesses. While we do not doubt 

the honesty or sincerity of the witnesses who testified, the 

testimony does not appear to be well-balanced, or objective, 

since persons with views not in accord with those of the 

counsel were not given full and fair opportunity to testify.

n4. While the report shows some preliminary planning had 

been made for desegregation, it does seem evident that no



complete plan had been carefully brought to a conclusion.

There did not seem to be a sufficient awareness of the many 

problems that would be faced by the sudden change. While 

the Supreme Court decision must be taken as final, we 

believe it did leave some opportunities for '& little play at 

the joints* in order to work out the many delicate, emotional, 

and prejudice-packed problems of integration.

*’5* It appears to us that several of the legislative 

recommendations of the subcommittee report are not the 

proper subject of legislation, but rather should remain 

administrative decisions. In addition there are a number of 

the legislative recommendations which we do not believe were 

covered by the testimony. For example, recommendations 

numbered 1, 6 and 9 do not appear to be the proper subject for 

legislation] recommendations numbered 7 and 8 were not 

sufficiently covered by the testimony to come to any 

intelligent conclusion.

"6, Ifce facts brought to light by this investigation seem 

to indicate that Negro leaders, and those actively interested 

In the advancement of the Negro people, have much work to 

do among the Negro people, and that all of the difficulties 

attended with integration are not caused by the seemingly 

uncompromising attitude of the white people.

"7. 1516 recommendations of the subcommittee issued

subsequent to the original report, 'that racially separate pui 

lie schodls be reestablished in the District of Columbia,'



obviously cannot be done without a constitutional 

amendment."

Biese views were signed by Congressmen Miller and Hyde, 

and for these reasons we renew the earlier objection to the 

testimony.

THE COURT: I will adhere to my ruling and overrule

the objection. I think the objection goes to the weigit, 

rather than admissibility. It is an official document, as 

we all know, and should have the consideration of the Court. 

So I will overrule the objection and let it be received 

in evidence.

MR. SEEL: We have nothing further.

THE COURT: You may step down.

(Witness excused)

JAMES GOODEN, ealledas a witness and having been duly sworn,

testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. CASNAm:

Q. Give your name to the court reporter.

A. James Gooden.

Q. Where do you live?

A. 124 East Monument, Jackson, Mississippi.

Q. How long have you lived in Jackson?

A. Since 1925.

Q. For whom do you now work?



149

Q.
A.

Q-

A,

Q.
A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A,

o.
A.

Q.
A.

A.

Are you now working or are you retired?

No, I am now retired.

What have you done in the way of working while you have 

lived here in Jackson?

I taught science and mathematics at Lanier High. School; 
of Lanier High School

I was principal; I was principal and teacher of an 

elementary school: j I was director of colored schools until 

retirement.

When did you retire?

In *6l.

Professor, I believe you are a member of the Negro race? 

That is correct, isn’t it?

Yes.

And did white pupils or Negro pupils attend the Lanier 

school at which you taught and were principal?

They did not.

Which race attended that school?

The Negro race.

Did any white pupils attend that school?

No.

Professor Gooden, while you were connected with the schools

of Jackson Municipal Separate School----Strike that.

What year did you first become associated with the 

schools of the Jackson Municipal Separate School District? 

1925.



150
q . Did you remain connected with that school system all the way 

from 1925 until 1961?

A. Continually, yes.
ft. During that period of time, Professor Gooden, did you have 

any occasion to attend any conferences or meetings of 

superintendents or other educators?

A. I attended the American Teachers Association, attended the 

school administrators * meetings, the National School Adminis­

trators .

ft. Where would that meeting be held? 

A. Atlantic City.

How often did you attend that meeting?

Every year from 1951 until I retired.

And that is the meeting of school administrators from all over 

the nation? Is that correct?

That is correct.

Did Dr. Kirby Walker, the superintendent of the Jackson 

schools, attend the same conference?

He did.

ft. Professor Gooden, what is your educational background? Give 

us your education and any degrees.

A. Elementary school in Madison County, where I was bom. I did 

high school and college in Alcorn A & M College. I did 

my undergraduate—  I did graduate work at Northwestern, where 

I received a Master of Science in Education, 

ft. Where is Northwestern located?
A ........... - • .



151

A* In Illinois. Evanston, Illinois.

Q. What degree did you receive from Northwestern in Illinois? 

A. Master of Science In Education.

Q. Do you have any other educational training?

A. No, none other than that.

Q. Then you became associated with the schools in Jackson 

District and have been there from 1925 until 1961?

Yes.
Professor Gooden, as a matter of fact during this tenure of 

duty with the Jackson schools, do gtou know of any incidents in 

which members of both the Negro and white races have attended 

the same school?

I don't know of any.

Based on your experience in these schools and your training, 

would you give the Court your judgment as to whether the 

races attending separate schools is good or bad or better or 

worse than if they were integrated?

Well, if I judge by the progress that seems to have been 

made, |t Beems that it was a serious handicap. I don't know,

I can't say whether it was good or whether it was bed because 

I didn't have the comparative tests, but I know the Jackson 

public schools did make considerable progress. When I came 

into the Jackson public schools, we had about 16 teachers. 

There were no graduates, no college graduates. When I retired 

there were more than four hundred in the publio colored 

schools and all of them were college graduates, and from



152

some of the best schools in the country. And to my knowledge, 

they did a  very excellent Job,

Nov, the basis on which I am making that statement,

I listened to these partial reports j when I came In they 

were making these reports. And what I have observed during 

these years, I don't know whether we have any basis for 

determining whether the Negro IQ is less than that of anybody 

else, but one thing that always disturbed, me, that we 

worked on and we are still working with, the great gap that 

I rediscovered in the Jackson public schools came about as a 

result of the readiness of the children who came to us.

About prior to 15 years ago, the children who came to us in the 

first grade —  I mean Negro children —  they entered as 

pre-primer, and they stayed in the pre-primer for one year 

and then they moved up to the first grade. Then many of them 

were not able to move on out of the first grade. We made 

some surveys and we discovered that the reason for this was 

that the child's readiness was not determined —  that is, when 

he entered school, he was not actually ready for school. Hie 

teacher had an unusually difficult problem trying to get 

those children ready.

We still have those problems. Now, I don't know what 

that —  That's not making any charge on anybody, but somehow 

he lacked the basic experiences that would be needed to begin 

school at the level at which the schools were pitched. And 

that has been the problem.



152

t o ,  vhat I was about to state, it seems to me 

that once he is in school, the gap that ve find 

between these two groups does not widen; it is beginning to 

narrow, but the gap that w© have begins, it seems when the 

child enters school; and so I am of the opinion that there 

is an opportunity for the Negro to move right along if he 

wants to.

Q. In your opinion, based upon your training and experience, 

do you think that the attendance by the white and Negro

pupils of this district at separate schools is better or 

worse than having them in the same school?

Twenty years ago the attendance represented about 50 percent 

of the school population, and at that time we had a 

compulsory school law. Bxe holding power of those who 

entered school was less than sixty perooat, or not more than 

sixty percent, —  that is, with the drop-outs.

When X retired, the holding pQw6rhad increased very 

consid ecabljr — - that is, the holding power now for the 

Negro schools are almost equal to that of the white schools, 

if not equal. That is the reason why we have to build and 

continue to build, not because of a rapid increase of birth, 

but increase of the holding powers so I have seen the holding

power increase in the schools.

MR. BEIL: Could we enter :an objection? It is very

interesting, but X don't know if it was responsive to the 
question. I believe counsel's question, was whether or not



Mr. Gooden felt that the better education could be bobtained 

In the Hegro and white schools, and we didn’t get an 

answer to that.

*EHE COURT: Well, that Is the question, and I didn't 

gather what —  He can answer if he can what his opinion is, 

as to whether it is better to have them separated or whether 

it is better to have them integrated.

I don't have any basis to determine whether it is better or 

not.

Do you have an opinion on the matter?

I have an opinion.

What is your opinion?

My opinion is that with the type of teachers that we have, 

with the training that the teachers have, and with the diffi­

culty and the problems of basic experiences that the teachers 

have, and due to the parent-teacher relationship that must be 

developed, that he has a better chance of making the greater 

progress at this time In the Jackson public schools. — I'm 

not talking about the country as a whole; I'm talking about what 

I know of the Jackson public schools —  because there is a 

great deal of work that has to continually go on between 

the par&tit and the teacher.

Do I understand you to say it is your opinion that it is better 

for the Negro to attend the schools with other Negroes and 

the whites to attend the schools with other whites?

Yes, based on three or four basic needs. A  student needs



155
to achieve; he needs to belong; he needs to be loved. And

those things. I think he can get more of that vith

the group, if the group is prepared to train him, than he would

otherwise.
Q,. By the ’'group," you mean the group of his own race?

A. Yes.
Q. Again I want to make certain that I understand your testimony. 

It is your opinion it is better in the Jackson schools, 

Jackson Municipal Separate School District, for the pupils of 

0  this district to attend the schools attended by members of

their own race?
A, Unless I could change the attitude of the white person 

toward him. That is an important factor, to me. 

q . j\a i correct in sucsnarizing your testimony when I say it is 

your opinion it is better they attend the separate schools?

A. Unless the white man’s attitude, feeling, toward me could 

^  be changed. In other words, if he doesn’t like me, I think

it would be a bad thing for me to send my six year old 

child to him.
Q. Professor, based on your observations and experiences,

is there any difference in the likes are! dislikes of the 

members of these two races, things that they like and don t 

like, are they charag^WUtics of the races?

A. Ch, yes, as a natural result.
n. What is your observation as to the differences in the



156
characteristics of these two races?

Well, it is pretty difficult for me to name any specific 

things. Now, we have some people among the, in the race 

that likes anything anybody else likes, and there are some 

others who like some things that others don'1 like.

We have our characteristics. I can’t point those out 

exactly.

And you have no connection with the public school system in 

Jackson at this time at all?

Hone whatever.

And you are giving this testimony based on your experience

with the school district?

A. Over a period of 35 years.

Q. Are you proud or not so happy with the school system of this 

district that tpu were associated with?

A. Yes. I ’m a part of it.

Q. Are you proud of it?

A. I ’m  proud of it. I think the Jackson public school system is 

one of the best in the country.

Q. Does that include the schools attended by Negroes, as well 

as those attended by whites?

A. Yes. I ’m  talking about both systems, because I think of 

both as a system. We have two groups, but I don’t think of 

it as a separate system for each, for Negroes and for whites.

Q. Is there any basic difference in the facilities or the courses 

offered in the schools attended by Negroes and whites?



*v, ■
A. There Is no basic difference.

Q. You know that of your own knowledge?

A. I know that, because all the courses that arc napped are 

gone over with the joint groups.

Q,. Professor Gooden, in selecting your teachers for the 

schools under your control, did you have a free hand in 

getting the best teachers available?

We, the principals and director, was the final determining 

factor of the person who was elected by the board to teach 

in Jackson public schools. No teacher was edeleted by the 

board and handed down to the public schools.

And you, together with the pri ncipals under you, had 

a free hand in Ejecting the teachers for which you were 

responsible?

That's right.

You recommended those to Mr. Walker, and he in turn to the Board 

of Trustees?

Those that we turned down did not get elected.

And those you recommended did get elected?

Bid get elected.

And that was true during your entire term?

It was true during my entire tern.

If a stranger was riding through Jackson in the summertime 

and no students were at the schools, could he tell which one

was attended by colored students and which by whites?

A. With the exception of one or two of the old schools, he



could not.

158

Q. If he went throu^i the schools themselves, could he tell? 

A, Bo. I am saying that because I have been, through every

school in Jackson.

You have been through every school?

Every school in Jackson.

And I believe you said you were proud of the school system?

Very proud of the Jackson public school system.

Does that apply to the buildings themselves?

It applies to the whole system.

It applies to the curriculum and the education?

Applies to the curriculum, applies to the personal relationships, 

it applies to the relationships between the two groups, the 
two races.

Professor Gooden, is it your opinion that under the present 

system the members of the Begro race are receiving the very

finest education that is available under the facilities and 
means of this district?

A. I think so.

Q. And the same thing would apply to the white people?

A. I think so. Mr. Young there is a product of the Jackson 

public schools.

MR. G A M  ADA.: I think that is all.



DIRECT EXAMINATION

B3f MR. LEONARD:

Q. I vas very interested in one statement you made. You 

said there were four things a child needs: to achieve, 

to belong, to be loved, and vhat was the fourth?

A. To achieve, to belong, to be loved, and to be wanted. And 

I think that to be wanted is an important one. There are 

some things I could say that I wouldn’t want to say here, but 

that to be wanted is very Important.

Q. Now, tell me one thing, Professor Gooden: this morning you 

heard Mrs. Evers? Were you here this morning?

A  . No, I wasn’t here this moral ng.

Q,. Mrs. Evers was on the stand, and she testified that she was 

number two in her class in high school. And I ’m  talking 

now about the first of your four things. In these 

cases there has been a great deal of talk about taking the 

superior Negro and —  and, believe, me, we don’t question 

but there are many superior Negroes —  and putting them over 

into a white school. And I would like to get your thought 

on this, if I can. Assuming that you have a Negro in an 

existing Negro school who would achieve hi^ily, would be 

the leader of his class, is he the sort of person you think 

should be moved over?

A. In the first place, the best psychologist, among the best 

psychologists, don't agree to putting him even in a separate 

group in his own school.



160
Q, That’s part of your second statement, that he wants to 

belong, that he needs to belong, In terms of his 

instruction and his education.

A. Yes, that is part of it. That’s the reason why you don’t

want to take him away. The psychologists say that. You don’t 

take him away from this small group because you don't want 

to have a breach between him and the other person. Some 

psychologists are saying now that there are no superior 

people, that you are Just superior in some things.

Q. in other words, his relationship is really one with his

entire group.

A* Yes.
Q. And in this sense is there any relationship between the pupil

and the teacher?

Definitely.

Or Just —

Definitely. That's what I was trying to say. You see the 

school —  we conceive the school as being a function or part 

of the home, the extending function of the home. When a 

child goes to school, the child continues to carry on in that 

function. He learns to talk at home, he learns to walk at 

home, he learns to eat at home, learns those before he is 

six. How, that's where this problem of disparity often 

arises. But that continues when he goes to school. When 

you're teaching him English, you're still teaching him to

talk. So that relationship, that extending of the home



l6l
influence, is still prevailing.

And the more you cen extend that then, I take it, the more 

closely the teacher can relate to the pupil, the more 

e a s ily  the educational process will go?

And the more nearly you are likely to expand his ability. 

And the more nearly you can take advantage of his ability? 

Yes.

Were you here at the time Dr. Barker pointed out the 

achievement of the Negro schools of Jackson were even 

hi#ier than any anticipated figures?

I’ve seen those figures —  that is, over the years.

You agree the schools have been actually doing that kind of

Job, from your personal observation?

I will tell you this: There are two or three —  I don’t

remember —  I wish I could call their names —  maybe from 

the University of Michigan —  but two of the larger universities 

of the North pointed out recently that they were beginning to

bid for the graduates of the Negro schools of the South,

rather than the Negro schools of the North, because those 

students that come from the South, he says, made better 

students; and the reason for it is that very fact. I don’t 

know whether you call it over-compensating, but that does 

happen. Those who do have ability do shoot up; they do 

advance.

. Professor Gooden, let m  make & statement to you, and I ’d likeQ



to see if you agree with me.

One of the chief counsel for the MAC?, Jack 

Greenberg, wrote a book about schools, and in that book he 

stated that approximately 20 times as many high school 

graduates, Negro graduates, from the South achieved the 

minimum college entrance board levels than did the Negroes 

from the mixed schools of the North. Is that what you're 

saying?

A. That is essentially what I'm saying.

Q. In other words, you believe this is really a product of 

school systems, and a product of the type of school system?

A. It is aproduct of the type of teaching that we are getting.

You see, Negro teachers are pretty hard; they drive 

pore tty herd.

Q. They have to, don't they?

A. They have to start at the beginning and drive hard. And as 

a result, they get that kind of result.

Q. But they get It and, as I recall what you said, at the same time 

they develop the holding power of the student and don't have the 

drop-out that they have elsewhere?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Thank you very much.

GROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. YOUNG:

Q. Mr. Gooden, did I understand you correctly to say during the 

course of your testimony that the general courses offered by 

the Jackson public schools are the same for Negroes as they



are for white?

A. Yea, sir.

Q. How, if I were to tell you there has been testimony here 

today that seme courses were offered to whites that are not 

offered to Negroes and some courses offered to Negroes and 

not offered to whites, would you agree?

A* Yes.

Q. Then your first statement isn't true?

A. Yes, my first statement is true and that statement is true. 

Any course will be offered to any school, whether it's white 

or colored, that you have enough people who want that course. 

Q. How do you determine whether or not they want it?

A. By the number of persons that make request for it.

Q. Does this go for the ROTC?

A. No. The school doesn't have anything to do with the ROTC.

Q.. Was ROTC available to white students in Jackson?

A. Yes, but that's the government makes that available} the 

school doesn't make it available.

16 5

Q. But it was not available to the Negroes?

A. No. When we attempted to make it available, the government 

wasn't making any more available.

Q. Now, when you say you offer the subjects that people want, 

am ^understand you to mean you ask the students what they 

want?

A* No. Students each year at the beginning of the year the

student fills out —  that's at the close of the year, about



now, they will fill out a list indicating courses he wants 
whether those courses are offered or not. In other words,
Ail the courses are offered, lhose offered In white schools 
and those offered in Negro schools, they are there, and the 
student check's the courses he wants. Those lists, when they 
are completed, are taken home and they are signed by their 
parents. When they are finalised they are signed by their 
parents. And they are brought back to the school, and the 
course of study that will be offered during that year or 
period will be determined by those forms that were filled

out.
Q. Do I understand you correctly then to say that unless a

large number of pupils make application for a certain course 
A, — No, not a large number. It’s ten or maybe seven 
or ten, something around ten. Enough for a class.

Q. But if there were not at least ten students who wanted
that course, although available at another school, then it 
would not be available to that student?

A. Well, there are courses if they are not available In one 
school, could be transferred to another school.

q . what about courses available only in white schools?

A. Only in white schools?
Q That*s right.
A. I don’t know what those courses are.
q . There has been some testimony here today that there are



165

A. —  Well, as I say, I don’t know what they are, so I couldn’t 

tell what you would do about those.

Q. I believe you said in talking about the schools that the 

schools themselves —  and by that, I mean buildings —  

were all practically equal? Is that so? Is that your 

testimony?

A. Equal?

Yes. Substantially the same.

Well, when you say "equal,,! it depends on what you mean when 

you say "equal."

Q,. I said substantially the same.

A. Some of them are superior, if you are going to talk about

size.
Mr. Gooden, are you aware of the fact that all of the 

Negro schools do not have gymnasiums?

Have what?

Do all the Negro schools have gymnasiums?

All of the high schools.

Are the, c o g n a t i o n  g o l e m s  and auditorium or separate 

gymnasiums?

You mean gyaatoriums?

Do you have separate gymnasiums in the Negro and white 

schools and separate auditoriums, or are they combined? 

Ihey are combi ® d  in two of the high schools, and they are 

separate in one.

What about the white high schools?



166

I don*t know.
I thought you said you were thoroughly familiar----

You said all the gymnasiums. We don’t have gymnasiums in the 

elementary schools.

What about the white high schools?
Thej have them. We have the gymatorium. In the Hill School 

we have a gymatorium, and Lanier School, but the plans are 

now to build a gymnasium. The plans are already set now for 

the gyranasiiaa in both of those schools.

You have only one high school now which has a separate 

gymnasium and separate auditorium?

That's right.

But what about the white schools.

They all have them, I suppose.
They «3J have separate gymnasiums and separate auditoriums, 

right?

I suppose.
You made the statement it was your experienceof working over a 

number of years in the Jackson public school system that the 

children who came to school in the first grade were not ready. 

Is that the term you used?

Yes.

They were not ready?

Yes.
Would I be correct in assuming this was due largely to the fact

familiesthat they cams from/that had not themselves had too much



167
educational opportunity or too many educational opportunities? 

A. Either that, or lack of interest.

Q. Would you agree that there is a disparity between the

educational attainment of Negro parents and that of whites?

A. Yes.

Q. Would you say that that of the Negro parents was less than

the whites?

Yes, I would.

Would you further agree thak this gap had been closed in 

recent years?

This gap of the child entering school?

No, I mean the parents themselves. Don’t you agree now that 

Negro parents on the whole —

It '3 closing.

It’s closing?

It’s closing. The schools themselves have been in fact 

closing that gap.

Now, Mr. Gooden, I believe you say you were a product of the

schools of the State of Mississippi?

A. Yes.

Q,. Public school and college of Mississippi?

A. Yes.

Q. And that you also went to Northwestern University? 

A. Biat’s rl$it.



168

q . — where you obtained your master's degree.

A, That's right.
Q» Were you able to compete vith those persons at Northwestern?

A. I finished in a Glass of 117, and I was, according to the 
director of the school, I was in the upper ten percent of 

my class.
Q, Were there any other Negroes who were able to compete?

A. There vara no other Negroes in that class.

Q. But you were able to compete?

A. I was in the upper ten percent.

Q. Now, the reason I asked you that is —

A. —  I could show you that letter, if you want to see it.

q . i*ii take your word for it. My reason for asking that 

question was, there has been some Indication in the 

testimony here today that Negroes don't have the mental 

capacity as the white people. In other words, that the 

Negro child does not have the native ability to comprehend 

and learn as to toe white people. New, either you are the 

exception to that rule, or the rule isn't true. Now, based 

on your own experiences in public schools, based on your own 

experiences vith Negro children over the years, is it your 

considered opinion ithat Negro students are inherently 

inferior to white children?

A. NO.

Q. That's all.
A. let me elaborate on that. You can't measure ability unless



you have a background of experience upon which to measure 

that ability. Now, if the person exposed to the test 

doesn’t have the background of experience, then we will not be 

able to determine on the paper whether he has it or not.

Now, let me give you this: At Northwestern, a psychology -

a Negro professor who was the top man in his class was taking 

a PHES in Psychology. He went down In Chicago, and part of Ills 

project was to make a test to find out the mental ability of

children down In Chicago. He made up the test. Part of thatpap
test was —  That was the time when multiple choice was just 

coming out. —  Part of that test was a multiple choice 

test, and he had on there, "Milk comes from a factory; it 

comes from a bottle; it comes from a cow; it comes from a 

so and so," and every child that was b o m  In Chicago missed 

cow. Every one. Every one on that test, some 18 or 20, 

every one that was born in Chicago. This was an intelligence 

test now. Every one that went from Mississippi or somewhere 

else in the South answered that test question correctly.

Now, if you are going to use that as a basis to determine 

who was the most intelligent, you certainly go for the South 

as more Intelligent; so you have got to have experience and 

background in order to determine this Inate ability that you 

have back there.

So I don’t agree that one is inferior.

According to the explanation you have just given, It is your



170

opinion that these standardized tests such as the ones 

introduced in evidence today are not necessarily an exact 

measurement of the child*s aptitude and ability? Is that 

correct?

A. Ho, they cannot be.

Q,. ®iank you.
pteE COURT: Very well, you may step down.

(Witness excused)

THE COURT: Court will recess until nine o ’clock tomorrow

morning.

(Whereupon the court was recessed until the following morning)

(Tuesday, May 19, 1964, at 9*00 A.M. the trial was resumed)

MR. WATKINS: We*d like to call Mr. William S.

Mllborne.

WILLIAM S. MHB0RNE, called as a witness and having been duly sworn, 

testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
m  MR. WATKINS:

Q. Please state your name.

A. William S. Mllborne.

Q. Where do you live, Mr. Mllborne?

A. Louisville, Kentucky.

Q. Of what state are you a native, sir?



171
A. Indiana.

What is your educational background?

It's all in the State of Indiana. Graduated from a small 

town elementary school; did my high school work at the 

Academy, Valparaiso University; one year at Purdue, AB Degree 

from Oakland City College; Master of Arts Degree from Indiana 

University.

Have you had any connection with educational associations?

I have been connected with the North Central Association 

of Colleges and Schools and with the Southern Association 

of Colleges and Schools.

Have you held any office in either of those?

I've held the office of President of the Southern Association. 

Have you in the past held any position with the public 

schools of Louisville, Kentucky?

The first part of your question I missed.

Have you in the past held any positions with the public schools 

of Louisville, Kentucky?

I have held positions with the public schools of Lodsville 

from 1928 to 1962, during which time, with the exception of 

six months, I was at one high school, three years as assistant 

principal and the rest of the time as the principal.

As principal of what school?

A. Louisville Male High School. M-a-l-e.

Q. During that time, Mr. Milborae, did you also hold any position



172
vith the 01 ty government of Louisville, Kentucky?

A. I was president of the Louisville Board of Aldermen for eight 

years,

Q. What eight years were those?

A. 1953 to 1961.
Q. Please tell the Court, if you will, something about the

size and nature of Male Hi#i School of which you were prin­

cipal for so long.
A. In size, approximately 1400 students, varying somewhat

from year to year. Primarily a college preparatory school, 

an old school dating from l8l6j a school with a 

lot of tradition, a lot of pride, a lot of prestige.

Q. Was that school originally segregated? And by that, I mean 

was it attended exclusively by white students?

A. It was segregated until 1954. I think the Fall of *54, as I 

recall it.

Q. Was it desegregated at that time?

A. It was.
Q. Before it was desegregated, tell the Court, please, sir, 

whether many or few of the students went from that school 

to college.
A. A very high percentage, for a public school, of the graduates 

went to college, mostly to eastern colleges.

Q. After desegregation did that situation remain the same or did

it change?

A. It has changed radically.



To what extent? In what way?
Well, at the present, relatively few of the graduates go to 

college.
V ' « y ? w ..j i *  * ».1 J  ‘ * v • '* f \

Prior to desegregation, did the students, graduates, of that 

school win many scholarships?
A  rather high number of scholarships. In years the total value 

would amount to more than a hundred thousand dollars annually. 

Were those merit scholarships?

That included merit scholarships, some of the national merit 

college board examinations.

What is a merit scholarship?

It is a scholarship provided by a foundation. It is a 

competitive scholarship in which the students who are 

competing, or applying, take a set examination. It Is national- 

wide. It provides full tuition, full expenses, to the winners 

of the scholarships.
to

Were those ^scholarships/what you would consider the top 

colleges in the country?

I believe they are so considered.

Can you give me a few examples of those colleges to which the 

students usually got scholarships?

Eastern schools. They can use them in many schools. The 

scholarships are granted to the student to be applied tothe 

school of his choice.

Were there any southern schools involved, such as Washington

& lee?



A. Oh, yes.
q . n o w , what has the situation been with respect to scholarships 

since desegregation of Male High School?

A. Hie number of applicants for the merit scholarships has

greatly dwindled. I do not recall in the past several years 

of one of the applicants winning a scholarship.

Q. Can you recall of a scholarship having been won in the past 

five years?
Well, I have to trust my memory. I do not.

Were there any serious problems with reference to 

discipline in the sohool prior to desegregation?

We had the usual run of secondary school problems of 

discipline, nothing serious.

Has the situation with reference to discipline changed any 

since desegregation?

It has changed markedly to the point that the problem of 

discipline takes up a great deal of time of the school 

administrators and of the teachers, a disproportionate part 

of the time that they must give to maintain proper decorum

in the classrooms and building. That is time taken from

actual teaching.

Q. Do I understand you to say that if the teachers were not

involved in problems of discipline, they could use that time 

in teaching the students?

. Oh, yes, definitely.A



175

q . with reference to discipline, I'd like for you to give me some 

of the type of problems involved. Did they involve

stealing?
A. It is a difficult thing to describe, but it involved such 

»*><ngn as student conduct in the hallways. Before the 

integration or desegregation we had the usual hum or buss in 

the hallways. After that, after we got a considerable number 

of Hegroea, there was much loud, loose talking in the hallways, 

mirth fitting, particularly among girls, much conduct in the 

classroom itself that a teacher couldn't condone and carry
r- - • ♦ ■ ■ . ■ - >.*'•. %» ■ v -a- ■ c * v 'f /• ■ & » . f' ‘jt
on a class. T h a w  was considerable petty stealing that we had 

not had before.

Q» What about cheating?

A. Cheating increased markedly.
q , Tdd desegregation have any effect on your ability to keep a

better, more experienced teachers, they became disheartened, 

disgusted. They transferred to other schools in the city system, 

or they sought employment in other school systems, or they Quit 

the profession. We found it more difficult to keep aad

q . Mr. Milboroa, was there any change in the general personnel 

of the school pupils after desegregation? £*$r that I mean, did 

they incline to become predominantly white or predominantly

good faculty in the school?
A. Yes, it had a decided effect. Of course, some of the

maintain a good faculty



176
Negro after desegregation took place?

A. Veil, at the first ve had only a token number of Negro 

students —  55, as I recall it —  who apparently had 

been handpicked, and we got along quite well, although 

they did not live up to what ve thought they should 

academically.

Excuse me, Vhen you say "handpicked," do you mean they ware 

students of unusually high IQ's?

They were considerably above the average.

At the time,when you were telling me how they performed in 

Male High School, how did they perform?

I said that they disappointed us in their academic 

achievement; based on the grades that they had had before 

they came to us and their IQ's, we expected more than we got. 

Were those 55 handpicked students followed by other Negro 

students?

Yes, but not by handpicked. Little by little we got the 

mine-run of students from the junior high schools.

What were the natures of those students?

A. Well, they were lower,academic calibre.

Q. What general effect did desegregation have on the quality 

of that school as a teaching instrumentality?

A. Well, there was a general erosion of the scholarship from

a high academic standard to a relatively low standard. Ifrere 

was a lowering of the disclphhe in the school. There was a

distinct lowering of the tone and moral fiber of the school.



177
As the Negroes moved in, the better white students moved outj 

so the percentage of white decreased, and the percentage of 

colored students increased. And that process is still going 

on*

Q. Mr. Milborne, was the desegregation of the Louisville school 

about which you have testified on a voluntary basis or as a 

result of a court order?

A. It was on a voluntary basis, but it followed the Topeka court

Q. Have you had occasion to study and observe the effects of deseg­

regation in the public schools of other cities other than 

Louisville, Kentucky?

I have seen it in a number of schools. I have seen it in 

Washington, Philadelphia, Gary, Indiana, Chicago, Cleveland, 

Indianapolis, Kansas City.

Please tell the Court whether or not the results of desegre­

gation in those public schools in those cities was substantially 

as you have described it in Louisville, Kentucky*

It has been my observation that they follow the sane general 

pattern of gradual changing from white schools to integrated

schools, and then more or less back toward de facto segregation
again.

Q* Mr. Milborne, after your years of experience with this problem 

of desegregation, have you reached any conclusion as to why 

we have this problem with the Negroes in a mixed school?

A. Well, from my observation and the study I have done, I am



178
convinced that the problem is caused by inate racial 

differences.

Q. Thank you.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. LEONARD:

Q. Mr. Milborne, you have given us a description essentially of 

what has happened to the scholarship standards of the white 

student. In your observation of the schools in the City of 

Louisville, would you say that with respect to the Negro 

students who moved over into Male High School that they were 

becoming better educated than they had previously?

MR. BELL: Could we ask that this be carried on in

something of the manner of a professional court hearing and 

the lawyers not lead’ this witness, who obviously knows his 

lines very well? They have been leading right along, and 

counsel for interveners now is probably giving us a probably 

classic example of a leading question.

THE COURT: Yes, that is leadirg.

THE WITNESS: Your Honor, the gentleman i s ----

THE COURT: --- Rephrase the question.

MR. LEONARD: I will withdraw that question and reframe

it.

Q. Do you have any familiarity with the Negro students who came 

over to Male High School? Did you observe their academic 

progress?

A, Yes



Q. Do you have any basis at all for determining whether or not 

that was greater or lesser progress than they had previously 

made?

A. I do not*
«

Q. In your opinion and under your observations, did they get a better 

education by transferring to Male High School?

A. I do not see how they were Improving educationally because, 

by and large, they had cone from rather excellent schools.

Q. Are you saying that Negro schools of Louisville were also 

excellent before 19f&?

A. Yes, sir. My observation Is that they were considerably above 

the average.

Q. Would you say they were above the average, or would you say 

that that average was above the figure, type of performance 

which you have described in Male High School after desegregation?

A. I'm not sure I get your question.

Q. You stated, I believe, that the Negro higi schools of Louisville 

before 195^ were excellent academically? Is that correct?

A. I stated that.

Q. Would you say that they were as high or higher than the 

academic standard of Male High School after desegregation?

A. I don't have sufficient evidence to give you a valid 

answer to that question*

CJ. Do you have an opinion?

A. It is my opinion that the educational opportunities of the

179



180
Negroes who came to Male High School are not improved by their 

coming to a desegregated school.

Q. Thank you.

THE COURT: Any cross examination?

MR. BEIL: No, we arenot going to offer any cross

examination of this witness; and as to the previous witnesses, 

we object to all of the testimony introduced and move to strike 

on the basis it is totally irrelevant to the only issues 

which the courts have timeand time again indicated are before

this Court in this type of action, and that is whether or not 

the schools of Jackson, Mississippi, are segregated. The 

situation in Louisville, therefore, is irrelevant.

Moreover, the testimony of this witness could be

expected, and from what I understand from leaders in

Louisville, his position is well known •—

MR. WATKINS: — Your Honor, we object to his testifying

into the record in this manner, stating what he k n o w  about 

this witness.

MR. HELL: I think I can —

MR. WATKINS: — Well, I’m going to object to your testi­

fying what you have been told about this witness in Louisville, 

Kentucky. That is highly improper.

MR. BELL: I ’d prefer you wait until I finish my objection.

THE CODRT: Very well, Gentlemen.

Mr. Jordan, will you read the last objection?

(The objection stated by Mr. Bell was read by the court reporter)



l8l
THE COURT: I will exclude it from consideration as

having any valuation, any probative force, one way or the 
other, but I will let him state it for the record, and I 
overrule the objection.

MR. BELL: I was trying to make two points: one,
that the situation in Louisville on the issues in this 
case is totally Irrelevant for any purposej second, that 
the Louisville desegbegation effort over the past few years
has been more or leas of a model, in which those who are 
proponents of desegregation - and there are many - feel that 
Louisville Is an excellent example, while other 
people who feel Louisville is one more example of the 
Ineffectiveness of desegregation as improving the overall 
educational situation -—  I was pointing out that this 
witness is generally known as one of those who opposed itj 
and therefore, for that additional reason, the testimony Is 
irrelevant to the issues before this Court.

THE COURT: I will overrule the objection of counsel
for plaintiff and overrule the motion at this time to exclude 
this testimony, and I will disregard his remarks as to what 
the position of this man was, whether opposed or favorable 
or what-not j but if he has any rebuttal testimony he can put 
on , of course, he can put that on at that time. But his 
statement as to what is well known, I cannot regard as being

testimony.
You may step down. (Witness excused)



182
MR. GANNADA: If the Court please, the Intervenors have a

witness that must leave shortly after lunch, and it is 

requested that they put their witness on out of order. We 

have no objection if it meets with the approval of the 

Court.

THE COURT* Very well.

MR. LEONARD: At this time I call Dr. R. Travis Osborne.

MR. BELL: Before the examination starts, let me make

an objection for the plaintiffs to the testimony of this 

witness, insofar as it is aimed at supporting the contentions 

of the Intervenors. We feel these contentions have been 

raised before, have been paassd on by the courts, and have been 

not approved.

If you will pass on that objection, I would like to make 

another one.

THE COURT: You wanted to say something further?

MR. BELL: Yes, Your Honor. Moreover, this

particular witness has testified in some of the other efforts 

to show that Negroes are inferior and that segregated schools 

are justifiable under the constitution; and in an effort to 

save the time of this Court, plaintiffs would move that the 

testimony that he has provided earlier be admitted in this 

case and spare us all the long hours of repetition which 

otherwise would be inevitable,

THE COURT: Well, I will overrule the objection and let



the -witness testify because they are entitled to make their 

record. It may be at a later date I would exclude it, but he 

is entitled to get it into the record, and In order to keep 

my rulings as I go I will overrule the objection.

DR. R. T. OSBORNE, called as a witness by the Interveners and 

having been duly sworn, testified as fellows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

B3T MR. LEONARD:

Q. Please state your name.

A. R. T. Osborne.

Q. What is your position?

A. Pofessor of Psychology.

Q. Where?

A* University of Georgia.

Q. Do you hold any other position with that university?

A. Director of Student Guidance Center.

Q. For how long have you been there?
A. I've been there since 193*7•

Q. What are your academic qualifications, Doctor?

A, Undergraduate work at University of Florida; graduate work 

through the PHD at the University of Georgia.

Q. And what was your doctorate taken in?

A. Educational psychology.

Q. Have you worked in that field since that time?

A. With the exception of four years during World War Two.



m

Q. I yonder If you would raise your voice a little?

Are you a member of any professional socle ties?

A* American Psychological Association; Southeastern Psycho­

logical Association; and Georgia Psychological Association.

Q. Are you a licensed psychologist?

A, For the State of Georgia, yes

Q. Havd you published any professional works In your field?

A. Yes, I have, several.

Q. Would you state the nature of those publications, generally, 

giving us any illustrations you wish?

A. In general they have to do with evaluation of achievement, 

mental ability, graduate students, EMbllc school child ren.

Anything on testing?

Mostly have to do with mental measurement or psychometrics.

What does the word "psychometricsi! mean*

Mental measurement.

And that is of an individual or a student or people 

generally?

A. It may be of an individual or a group.

Q, What forms of measurement are there which can be taken? 

What forms of mental measurement can be made with any

reasonable reliability?

A. The most reliable are the Individual intelligence teste. 

Q. Far what is that a predictor?

A. It predicts best scholastic achievement or school type 

achievement and learning.



185
Q. Does it have a hi#i or a low correlation with subsequent 

scholastic achievement?

A. It is probably Hie best index of later scholastic 

achievement as measured by public school grades.

Q. is there any way also of measuring the achievement, as such? 

A. Yes. The usual standardized test of the three R*s, reading,

arithmetic, language skills.

Can these achievements be broken down in the testing process 

at all? In other words, can you take various components of a 

person’s learning and test them separately?

A person’s achievement, yes. You mean reading?

Yes.

A. Arithmetic and language skills? Yes.

Q. And even within those, is it possible to break them down any

further?

A. Yea. You lose reliability when you break them down i to

shorter ----

Q., To what extent can you measure the subsequent achievement 

against a person’s original aptitudes as shown by an 

intelligence test?

A. I don’t understand.

Q. To what extent. You stated there was a correlation

between scholastic achievement and Hie figures gotten on 

intelligence tests. How do you determine that?

A. It is statistical process of relating the predictor or

the ability scores to a later crlterium achievement score.



186
Could be school grades or could be test scores.

MR. IEONAJRD: At tills time I would like to hand to the

Court and have marked as intervener’s exhibit a statement 

of the qualifications of Dr. Osborne and of his professional 

publications in the field of testing; and I offer Dr. Osborne 

as an expert in the field in which he has ^nst mentioned his 

qualifications.

THE COURT: Let it be marked and received in evidence.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervener’s Exhibit No. 1) 

Q. Have you ever taught in any public schools?

A. Yes.

Q,. Have you had any educational experience with classes beyond the 

public school level?

Yes.

What is the total length of your teaching experience at this 

point?

Prom ’36 until the present, except for four years I was in 

the Navy.

If I said 24 years, would that be approximately correct?

A. That would be, approximately.

Q. In the course of your work at the University of Georgia, have 

you been called upon to make any tests on a broad scale of 

city system public schools?

A. I have been invited as a consultant to participate in the kind 

of activity you mentioned.

Q. What city or cities?



187

A. Savannah, Georgia, is one.
Q. Will you tell me what your function was with respect to the 

testing of the children in Savannah, Georgia?

A. Mainly consultant to the superintendent,, principals, and the 

advisory committee on the evaluations, to help them plan 

and implement a longitudinal testing program for the 

children in the county.
Q.. what is a longitudinal testing program?

A. Well, an on-going program 'which would be repeated every year, 

rather than just a single cross-sectional program given one 

time and then used and not repeated the following year.

q . would it follow the same children throu^i the various years?

A. It may or may not. For example, some schools would test

alternate grades every year. Eventually they would, test the 

same children, but it may or may not.

Q. What test did you recommend?
A. I didn’t recommend, The school system selected and agreed upon 

the testing program for this county.

q . You participated in the discussion?

A. That’s right, and advised.

Q. What test was selected?
A. The California test battery, achievement and mental ability.

q . Would you describe that to us for a moirent?

A. It’s a standard paper and pencil group test of achievement in 

the basic areas —  reading, language skills, arithmetic, and 

a test of mental ability.



188

Q. When you say it is a general or standard test, do you mean it 

is used on any scale broader than Savannah or the State of 

Georgia?

A. It is a i national test, standardized on a national norm.

Q. When you say "national," "standardized,' what do you mean 

by that?

A. The test has been given to a large number of people throughout 

the country, and from the results normative data have been 

established.

Q,. Are the normative data based on all persons who have taken

the test or based upon a particular local test, as in Savannah?

A. No. Ohe normative data are representative of the nation as 

a -Whole, if that is claimed by the test publisher.

Q. Did you participate at all in the training of the

teachers who make the tests, or make the test yourself?

Did you take any part in your capacity as advisor?

A. I participated in the training of teachers who 

administrered the tests, yes, sir.

Q. Did the teachers administer the tests?

A. Yes.

Q,. Over what period of time?

A. Well, the program was begun in April of *54.

Q. Is it continuing today?

A. Yes.

Q. Have the results of those tests been made available to you? 

A. Ihey were, yes.



Q. Have you considered or studied or written or done anything with 

those results?

A. Yes•

Q. What have you done?

A. A sursmary of the findings was published, without identifying 

the school system.

Q. I show you at this time, Doctor Osborne ---- Allow me to have

this marked for identification.

(Same was marked as Intervener's Exhibit No. 2 for Identification)

Q. I show you Intervener's Exhibit 2 for Identification, which 

is dated, purports to be a monograph entitled "Racial 

Difference in School Achievement," by R. T. Osborne, and 

ask you if this is the study to which you have Just referred?

&. Yes, that is.

Q. And this study is your work?

A. Yes.

Q. And it is based upon test results which have been made 

available to you?

A. Yes.

MR . LEONARD: I offer the study into evidence at

this time.

USE CCXJRT: Let it be received in evidence.

(Intervenor's Exhibit No. 2 for Identification received in evidence)

MR. LEONARD: At this time I would like to put on toe

stand, without introducing in evidence, g ertain pages of



xyu

this report, which we have photographically enlarged.

If you would step down from the stand, please.

(Witness steps down)

Can you identify the chart which is presently on the easel? 

Uhis is a chart from the monograph previously exhibited.

Will you tell us what it states or shows?

This is Figure 1, showing the average grade placements earned 

on California Reading Test by white and Negro pupils —

Raise your voice.

*rhta is Figure 1 from the Monograph, shawl ng the average 

grade placement earned on the California Reading Test by 

white and Negro pupils tested in grades 6, 8, 10 and 12.

Q. Would you tell us what is meant by 'Vocabulary"? And "Comprehension?

Vocabulary is a sub-test that merely reflects a child*s 

knowledge of words. Comprehension is his ability to under­

stand written material, his understanding of written material. 

Would you tell us what the distances or shapes of the lines 

show that you have drawn on the chart?

In the first place, identify the lines. What are the four 

lines you have in each case?

A. Well, the solid line is white boys, the dotted — heavy dotted 

line is white girlsj Negro boys, (indicating) and Negro girls.) 

Q. Now, will you tell us what the chart shows? Summarise for

us what each of the three boxes shows?

A. It shows the children tested originally,in grade 6 . The white 

children were achieving about at normal grade level, and the



colored children in grads were on Vocabulary somewhat above

the 4th grade level.
This is easier to understand from one of the tables, 

but graphically it is shown here. A difference of about 

a year and a half in reading vocabulary achievement.

Q. Now, does the distance between the upper and the lower 

sets of lines indicate an achievement difference between

the white and Negro children?

A • Yes.

Q. And does that difference —  is that difference constant 

throughout the years in which tests were made?

A. It is obvious from the graphs that there appears to be a

widening of that difference.

Q. Does that indicate a difference in rate of progress 

or rate of learning with respect to vocabulary? 

a . I would interpret it that way, yes.

Q. Your top one is the 12th grade?

A. Yes.

Q, Your difference In the 12th grade Is greater than your 

difference in the 6th grade?

A. Yes.

Q. Is the same true of Reading Comprehension?

A. Yes, The hung? in the curve is a little different place, but 

the overall picture is the same.

Q. Now, the upper two lines are white boys and girls, and the 

lower two lines are Negro boys and girls?

A. Yes.



192

Q. And you have the sane divergent pattern in Beading Compre­

hension as you had in Vocabulary?

A* Yes.

Q. And do you have the same total pattern?

A. Well, the total is the composite of these two.

Q. Dr. Osborne, if you would slip that to the bank, and take 

Figure 2, which follows it. Would you explain Figure 2 for

us?
The same legend is used at the bottom of the page. This is a 

test of arithmetic, arithmetical reasoning and fundamentals.

Q. What goes into Reasoning? 

A. Problem-solving.

Q,. And Fundamentals is what?

A. Simple number combinations, adding and subtracting.

Q. In this particular chart, are the Reasoning and the Fundamentals 

the same? In other words, is the pattern formed by the 

progress of the white and Negro children the same for Reasoning 

aa it is for Fundamentals?

A. No, there is a slight difference. I don't know how to account 

for that, but the pattern —  This hump in the curve could 
be an artifact of poor te3t articulation or something, 
but anyway the curves are not identical.

Q.. As the test results go, are your differences in Reasoning 

greater, less than, or equal to your differences in 

Fundamentals?

A. By inspection I would say the difference in Fundamentals is



193
greater.

Q. And is your rate of divergence during the school years the 

same or different?
i

A. It would appear to be different.

Q. And they diverge more broadly on Fundamentals than they do 

A. Yes.

Q,. Now, go to Figure 3. What does this chart show?

A. This is an average intelligence grade placements earned on 

California Mental Maturity Test by white and Negro pupils

tested in grades, 6, 8, 10 and 12.

Now, is this the intelligence te3t you told us about 

previously for predicting scholastic achievement?

That's right.

Would you describe the results which the chart shows?

The test is broken down into two parts: a Langiagc section and 

Non-Language beet ion.

Can you explain those?

The language section usually involves problems of vocabulary, 

questions involving vocabulary, and mental reasoning involving 

words. The non-language section, as it indicates, does not 

involve the reading skills.

How do you test if it doesn't involve reading skills?

Picture problems, space problems, perceptual organization, and

that kind of thing.

Q, Does this have any relation to the type of thing w© call



cultural and non-cultural?

A. If you could tag It, this would be more cultural than this

(indicating). This does involve language, vocabulary, and this 

is the non-cultural, but still the child has to be able to 

use a pencil, for example.

Q,. Are the patterns in Language and Non-language the same, as 

your chart shows them?
the difference

A. No. The Language goes — -/seems to be greater here, and 

the boys and girls seem to 3how greater differences on the 
language section. In general, the boys do better on the 

Non-Language section.than the girlsi the girls generally do 

better on the language skills.

Q. Now,1 as between the white students and the Negro students, 

do you have the same pattern?

A. That*s right.

Q. And that is shown in your total on the chart?

A. Yes, but not to a great extent. I mean, these are more 

apparent than real, I would say.

Q. Now, would you tell me, you stated that tests of mental 

maturity could be used to predict scholastic achievement.

Would you 3ay the tests which you show on Figure 5 would be a 

reasonably accurate predictor of the results shown on charts 

1 and 2?

A. Yes. The correlation, I*d say, between this test and the others.



195

Q. Do they demonstrate to any extent a pattern?

A. Yes, they do, but you -would naturally expect,this

test of mental maturity, you’d expect a pattern, to find 

the same pattern here as you would with your achievement.

Q. Does the difference in mental maturity increase with age?

A. According to the figures here shown, there is an increase, 

yes. I would say yes.

Q. Have you previously testified that the achievements diverge 

more with age?

A. That is correct.

Q. Is that a correlation between the two?

A. No, that wouldn’t be a correlation, but that would Indicate 

there is a similarity between the two, but not necessarily 

a correlation.

Q. What are your overall conclusions in this study at this time?

A. They are indicated in the monograph.

Q. Well, without having you read them, if you will take the 

stand again....

Number onei How many children approximately are involved 

in this test?

A. It varied from —  I think at the beginning there were over

three thousand. I don’t remember the figures. I would have to 

look at the numbers.

Q. You have a chart?

A. Yes.



196
Q. Let me repeat the question. How large a student body was 

used in making these tests?

A. In ’54 there were 1558 white children in the 6th grade, 

952 Negro children in the 6th grade;

1206 white in the 8th, and 697 Negro in the 8th; 

and 10th grade, 919 white children, and 460 Negro.

Q. Can you summarize for me in round figures?

A. About 4,040.

Q. About 4,000 total. Over how long a period were these

tests made?

Now, that didn't involve —  I mean, this study didn't involve 

all of those children, because some of them dropped out 

and transferred and moved into other schools, and those 

things. These children given on the chart, the children 

who were actually examined in all four years, the number 

is considerably smaller, because —

Because of drop-outs?

Because of transfers, and some children were retained and weren't 

tested in the same grade, and that type of thing.

So that your total number here according to the chart is 

about 750 or 800?

That's correct, children who were tested at the four 

successive years starting at the 6th and going to the 12th,

Over what spread of years —  just four years on this?

Six years. '54 to '60.

Six years. And these tests were given over that spread?



197
A. That's right*

Q. Mr. Osborns, I call your attention to Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 in

this action, Answers to Interrogatories of the Jackson 

School Board, containing a series of tables in answer to 

Interrogatory 5.
If you will look at those, please, and I will ask you 

whether you have seen those tables before?

Yes, I have seen it.

Have you considered the result shown in those tables 

in comparison with the work you have done in Savannah?

A. Not statistically, but I have reviewed them.

Q. Would you say that they show the same or substantially the 

same pattern, or different patterns?

A. Although the tests were given at different times by different 

examiners, in general the trend is the same; the same conditions

obtained heree

Q. Is this true both as to mental maturity and as to the 

achievement? Or just one?

A. It would be both; although the tests are not exactly

comparable. Different tests, but the ploture is the same.

Q. Dr. Osborne, are you familiar with the results which were 

reported by the Mobile school system and put in evidence 

in the Davis case?

A. Vaguely familiar; not as familiar as I am with this.

Q. Have you considered those to the same extent as the Jackson -



198
—  as the Jackson, yes.

Do they show the same pattern?

Very little difference. Again the functions of the type of 

tests, rather than any —  .

Are the differences within normal spread, or do they show 

different types of — . In other words, — .

The trends are the same.

Do differences exist in all of them?

Yes.
of

Are these differences approximately/the same score?

The magnitude of the differences is the same, I would 

say. Roughly the same. Perhaps not the same for every 

grade, but in general the same.

Are you familiar with the test results which were reported 

for the City of Charleston in the State of South Carolina 

and put in evidence in the Brown case?

Yes. Again, vaguely.

Q. Chi the 3ame basis? 

A. That*s right.

Q, Have you considered those in terras of these differences? 

A. Yes.

Q. And are they the same or different?

A. Hie Charleston data appeared to be greater. I mean, the 

differences appear to be greater than those in the other 

three studies mentioned.

Q. Are you familiar with the report that was made on the 

Atlanta schools, Dr. Osborne, by the educational testing



service?

Yes. I am familiar vlth the charts, the general appearance of 

the results.

Would you say that those have the same degree of difference 

or less or more or any?

If I remember correctly, the Atlanta data were made to 

compare schools, rather than by achievement areas for 

children. I have to admit —  If I could familiarize 

myself or see the data, I might be able, 

let me read you the following, Dr. Osborne, and ask for your 

opinioni

"Average scores of Negro pupils fall progressively 

further behind the national average and the averages for 

white Atlanta pupils as they advance from primary grade 

through high school."

Is that a statement that is constant with what you have 

previously testified?

Yes.

Next paragraph:

"In reading, the difference between average scores is 

about one grade at grade nearly two grades at grades 

4 and 5; nearly three grades at grades 6 to 8j and over four 

grades in English at grade 12."

Is that constant with what you have previously testified?

Yes, it follows



200

Q. I continue:

"In arithmetic, the differ eice between average scores 

Is less than one grade at grade j5j about two grades at 

grades 6 to 8j and over four grades in mathematics at 

grade 12. Negro pupils tend to do better in arithmetic 

than reading at all grade levels. They do very poorly in 

English at grade 12."

Is that similar to or different from the results to 

which you have testified this morning?

Similar to it. May I ask, Is that from the Atlanta report? 

That is from the Atlanta report.

I will be glad to mark this in identification if the

plaintiffs want.

Q,. Who is the author of that report?

A. Or. Warren Finley supervised it. It was prepared by the 

Educational Testing Service, Princeton.

Q. Do you know of any other study which has been made of the

achievement and mental maturity of Negro children in Southern 

schools?

A. Recently Kennedy published a report out of Florida State.

Q. Will you please Identify him for us?

A. I am trying to recall his given name.

MR. LEONARD: Let me have this marked for identification.

(Same marked as Intervenor’s Exhibit No. 3 for Identification)

Q. I show you Intervenor*s Exhibit 3 for Identification, which 

purports to be a monograph of the Society for Research in



Child Development, "A Normative Sample of Intelligence and 

Achievement of Negro Elementary School Children in 

the Southeastern United States, * by Wallace A. Kennedy, Vernon 
Van De Riet, and James C. White, Jr.

I ask you vhether that is the study to which you have Just 
made reference?

A. yes, that is right.

MR. LEONARD: At this time I would like to have the 

witness identify and offer in evidence Just certain pages frcm 

the report. I offer in evidence the title page, the 

acknowledgment that the research was supported through 

the Cooperative Research Program of the Office of Education,

U. s. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, and 

pages 32, 84, 86, and 110 of Intervenor's Exhibit 3 for 
Identificat ion.

T HE COURT: Let them be received in evidence.

(Said pages of Intervenor*s Exhibit No. 3 for Identification were
received in evidence)

Q,. Would you please refer to Table 45 at page 82 of that report, 

and if you would, step down from the stand, and we have a 

photographic enlargement on the easel.

Would you please state to us what the various columns mean?
A. Thin is a table from Kennedy*a revision, or normative data 

for the new Stanford-Binet test. He administered this test

to a large number of Negro children in the Southeast, with the 
results shown here.



202

In the column representing Age, the number of children tested 

here. This is the age in months of the child (indicating), and 

is the mental age in months as determined by the tests, 

and this is the difference in months here (indicating).

Q. Ifhe difference between what?
A. Between the expected here (indicating) and the achieved here.

Q. When you say the "expected,” you mean the chronological age?

A. That's right, of an average child at the age the child was 

tested.
Q, Do I understand — , Veil, is mental age and chronological 

age the same thing?
A. No. Chronological age for test purposes is merely the 

age at which the child took the test.

Q, what is the normal mental age for any given chronological age? 

A. Normal mental a g e ----

— For any —

A. —  Would be the same.

Q. It would be the same. Any difference in mental age and 

chronological age would be what?

A, If the mental age is greater than the chronological age, it 

would indicate the intelligence quotient above 100. If it's 

below, it would indicate to that extent below.

Q. Can it be measured in terms of months or years as a difference? 

In other words, can mental age be established?

A. Sure, mental age.

Q.. Can the difference between the two be taken?



203
Tfrfl-t *3 correct. That is vhat Kennedy has done here.

And does your column 011X61*0006 in months express that figure 

which you have just explained?

By the way, this is not my table. I mean, it's fran the 

monographs it is Mr. Kennedy's.

Yes.
As you understand the column entitled "difference in months. 

That*8 correct.
Difference in mental age and chronological age?

That's right.

Is it ahead or behind, in terras of mental age?

In each case, with one exception here, the chronological age 

is greater than the mental age. This, I think, is at the
■ ’V .

five-year level an artifact —  Veil, it could be a  sampling 

accident or something else.

How many people were in the sample at five years?

Only 19 children at that age.

Is that a reliable sample for statistical purposes?

HOt when —  At six years, we have 22?. I think that is 

better. Some selective factor was at work there 

we don't know about.
How, who were the subjects of this test, as the study 

indicates?
The Negro children in the southeast.

About how many? Do you know?

Fifteen hundred or so. That's about right.

Are there differences between mental age and chronological



204

age constant?

A. No* It is cumulative.

Q. What is—

A. Well, at year level six, the difference is five months. At

year level ten, It Is seventeen. And I think the same

argument that I have made here for the small difference at year 
five,

level, the small number, would also hold for this year level 

thirteen, where the difference is out of line.

Q. Now, at the age of six where you say there is a

five month difference, this would mean a mental age of 

five years and — -?

A. Seven months.

Q. At the age of seven, vbat would the mental age be?

A. 6.3*

And at the age of eight?

7., rounding off.

What?

I say at the age of eight, rounding this off, it would be 7. 

h  <iher words, that is almost one year behind at 

the age of eight? 11.6 months?

Yes.

Q. And in terms of years, how far behind at nine? 

A. One year,two months.

Q,. .And at ten?

A. One, five. And one, six. A year and a half.
Q. And at eleven?



205
A. Eleven? That’s vhat I said. —  At eleven, a year 

and a half at age eleven.

Q. And eleven?
A. Beat’s what I said. A  year and a half. That's 18. —

Q. The difference In raofaths Is —

A. Oh, no. Ho, that’s 18. Excuse me. I didn’t have my glasses

on.

Eleven la 22 months. 

Q. Close to two years?

A. That’s rl^ht.

That’s correct.

And twelve. What la the difference at the age of twelve?

35 months, or almost three years.

Is that chart consistent with the results you have reported 

this morning on the various southern cities we have been 

discussing?

The differences are not very great. I would say yes.

Does it follow the same general pattern?

Yes.

Q. Does this chart, taken as a whole, Indicate Negro students in 

the southeastern United States lag behind the norm by an 

increasing degree over the span of school years?

A. Prom Table 45, that would appear to be so.

Q. Does it appear like the figures you have dealt with in Savannah 

and the ones you have seen on Jackson, Mobile, and the other

cities?

A, Restate the question



206

Q. Q. The question waa, does this table show an increasing 

lag in the Negro student in the southeastern United States 

as he progresses upward through the school years?

A. Lag in mental age, as measured by this test. Now, lag

in achievement, I thinkthe others we were talking about in 

achievement.

Q.. Well, let's stay here with mental maturity. What does 

mental maturity measure?

A. Ability to do intellectual work.

Q. In other words, in terms then of ability to do work, Dr.

Osborne, is there an increasing lag over the period of school 

years?

A. From this table, there is.

Q. Nov, is that situation the same for the study you made in

Savannah?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Similar, yes.

And the figures which have been put in evidence here for Jackson? 

Yes, similar to that.

And Mobile and Charleston?

A. 'The figures are similar, that is correct.

Q. If you will turn to the next chart there for a moment.

Would you explain that graph, please?

A. Ihis is a graph of Figure 2 from the Kennedy monograph, showing 

the IQ distribution of Negroes and the normative sample,

This curve represents the obtained data from the Kennedy 

study, and this curve represents the normative sample



207
superimposed on the same base line with the - same 

scores represented.

Q. When you say the data from the Kennedy study, your first 

line represents the scores of the Negro children?

A. Hiat is correct.

Q,. Distributed against a normal curve?

A . Yes.

Q. Or what type of curve?

A. Yes, this is the normal curve drawn on the same base line of

the Kennedy.

Q,. What do they call the area covered by both curves? Is there 

any overlap between the two?

A. Boat is not the definition, correct definition. I mean,

this area here at which the curves overlap is not the usual or 

conventional use of the term ’’overlap.”

Q. Does it have a term, Then measured against the normal?

A. It Blips my mind right now if it does.
Q. What does this chart show in terms of the preceding chart?

A. The same.

Q,. The Negro students are up to, ahead of, or behind the normal?

A. Behind the normal group. I think this is a graphic represen­

tation of the other data we Just saw.

Q. Are the Negro figures given there in the normal distribution 

form? In other words, is the curve which they form a normal 

distribution type curve?

A. It is the usual bell type curve, but it is peaked more than



than the normal curve here.

Q. Why is that?

A. I can only guess. I don’t know anything about —

Q,. Do you have an opinion?

A. Yes. I would have an opinion that the lower range of 

the tests here would seem to — . Well, the test 

doesn’t effectively measure below the IQ’s 40, 50, and so 

forth. I would say that chance plays a great deal in giving 

scores In this neighborhood from 40 to 60.

Q. And that has tended to pack it up with —

A. I would say that, yes, but I don’t know that.

I would hazard that as a guess.

Q. Turn to the next chart.
THE OODHT: At this point v© will take a ten minute 

recess.
(Court was recessed for ten minutes)

After Recess
(MR. LEONARD:)
Q. Dr. Osborn, would you pleaae turn your attention to Table 71 

of the Kennedy study, a likeness of which is presently on 

the easel, and tell me what those figures show?

A. table shows the correlation between the Stsnford-Binet

mental age and achievement as measured by the California 

Achievement Test, correlation between Reading on the Calif­

ornia, and Mental Age measured by the Bluet is .68, arithmeticj 

.64, language; .70 —  and Battery, I assume, means the



209
the conbinatlon of these grades —  would be .69.

Q. What do those figures mean?

A. That the relationship between Intelligence is

measured by the — mental age as measured by the Binet, and 

achievement as measured by the California Achievement Test, 

is high average. I mean, you can predict the one from 

the other fairly accurately.

q . Are all the correlation figures substantially equal, or do they

show any real variation?

A. Ho, there is not much difference. I doubt if the

difference is significant. It is more apparent than real. 

Q. Thank you. Please turn to the next chart. You have now on 

the easel what table number?

A. 68.

Q

A,

Table 68 of the Kennedy study. Would you please tell us what 

that table shows?

It Is a capitulation of the California Achievement Test 

grade placement at each grade level by all of the sub-tests, 

giving the number of children in the 1st, 2nd, and through the 

6th grades, both male and female.

Q* Does it show any differences between the grades where the 

Ifegro children tested and the norm?

A. The 1st grade -

Q. —  Well, in general.

A. Well, in general, I would say the same Information that 

we have reported for other studies, I think we could find 

here. Maybe with same slight differences, but the trend



210
and the magnitude of the differences would be the same. 
Substantially the same as in the other cities?
As the others.
I would like to show you at this time a graph of Table 45 
from Dr. Kennedy*s monograph, and ask whether the 
curve which is shown there approximates the curves which you 
previously testified to in connection with Savannah?
Yes. The information here is similar. Maybe in this area 
back here, slightly different, but the green is the norm and 
the red is the Negro group, from the Kennedy study.
On Savannah and the other studies, where would the white line 
have been if Dr. Kennedy had tested it and it remained in 
this pattern? In other words, was your white line in 
Savannah at or above the norm?
Approximately the norm.
In other words, your measurement here then of your Negro 
against the norm Is a reasonable comparison of Negro against 
white in this area?
Yes, although he doesn’t do that here. But I think the norm— . 
I would like you to look at this time at the graph of the 
reading grade placement from Table 68 which you have just 
been looking at, and again I ask you if this is approximately, 
the same trend which was shown in the graph of reading place­
ment in Savannah?
Similar, but I think the differences here are somewhat slight, 
less than Savannah, but the trend is the same.



look at the one behind that and tell us what that shows.
This is language grade placement. It shows about the 
same thing except as we found in the other studies, the 
girls on the language achievement approximate the norm 
more nearly than the boys, but the average of those 
would be about the same.
There is still a divergence on the whole between the Negro 
tests and the norm?
That is right.
Which increases over the grades.
From 2 to 6, yes, from the Kennedy data.
Now, take the next one.
Arithmetic grade placement from the Kennedy data.
Is that approximately or substantially similar to the one 
you tested in Savannah?
Again yes.

Now, would you contrast the difference in this chart with 
the difference which was in the immediately preceding chart 
on language? I notice that the differences appear to be 
different on the chart. Could you explain it?
The differences appear to be somewhat less for arithmetic 
than for language achievement.
Is this the same as you have found in Savannah and elsewhere? 
Yes, except for arithmetic fundamentals, I think we had 
an increase, a greater difference, for the arithmetic 
fundamentals. This is not broken down by fundamentals and



reasoning. I think the difference was slightly greater.

But there again it’s just —

Q. Does it tend to fall into a pattern by subject matter?

Is there consistency to these figures in that respect?

A. The overall trend is the sane, I think.

Q, Taking them by subjects, Is there to any extent a pattern 

which is formed by these different city results?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. If you will take the stand again...

(Witness does same)

Q. In connection with your Savannah study, Dr. Osborne, did you 

make any attempt to match white and Negro students of the 

same mental maturity or IQ?

A. Yes. A proportion of the study was that.

Q. What was the point of this study? What were you trying to 

achieve?

A, The purpose was to compare achievoment after having matched 

- the children in terms of age arid mental ability.

Q. Will you tell me more about how you matched them?

A. It was an experimental matching; from the largo group we were 

able to find children who were of the same age and equal 

mental ability in both groups. Ihrough the sorting of the cards 

we were able to match them in that respect.

Q. Did you match them in pairs?

A. Yes.

Q. How many pairs did you have?



213
A. 1*11 have to look at the report.

Q. Well, in a rough amount, subject to checking the report —  

A. Yes.

Q.
A.

A.

Q.

—  approximately how many?

Over a hundred pairs of these boys and girls.

And in each pair, the Negro child and the white child who 

were matched had the same IQ at the beginning of your tests? 
Yes.

Dr. Osborne, you were about to answer the question, what was 

the purpose of matching these pairs of children in the

Savannah school?

To determine the achievement, variations in achievement, after 

the groups had been matched for mental ability and age.

Was this an effort to determine whether they stay the same 

thereafter or change?

I had no preconceiv ed ideas, but it was just to watch the 

groups as they progressed through, from the 6th grade to 
the 12th grade.

Q. Would you please step down again to the easel and identify 

for us the photoenlargement which is now on the easel?
(Witness does same)

A. This is from the monograph Figure 4, average intelligence 

grade placements,

Q. As appears in Intervenor’s Exhibit 2, your monograph?

A. Yes. Average intelligence grade placements earned on California 

* Mental Maturity Test by groups of white and Negro pupils



equated on the basis of Intelligence quotients earned at the 

6th grade level were matched at this point and

examined repeatedly---- By the way, the numbers are here.

59 pairs of male students and 8l pairs of females.

Q« 131 pairs of students. Were these all taken from the same 

percentage of their respective groups?

A. No. In order to match them at this level here, if you will 

follow the Kennedy curves, we had to find a selection of 

children that would fit the two criteria —  that is, age and 

mental ability. They were not from the some sections, as 

pointed out in the monograph.

Q,. Would you explain this graph to us. Why do all the lines 

start at one point?

A. That is a condition of the experiment. They were matched 

at this point in the 6th grade.

Q. In the 6th? Does the single point then mean that they 

were exactly the same in the 6th grade?

A. Yes.

Q. And what is your next test point after the 6th grade?
A. 8th.

Q. And are they 3til}, together at the 8th grade?

A. No. They diverge by maybe a half-grade or so.

Q. Approximately half a school year apart two years later?

A. Yes, guessing —  and the figures are in the monograph —  but 

graphically it looks like about a half a grade.

Q. When did you next test them?



215

A. 10th grade.
Q. And -what was their relative position at that time?
A. It looks to me, about two years* difference in mental 

maturity at the 10th grade level.
Q. What was the conclusion of this study on matched pairs in the 

terms of mental maturity?
A. That students matched at the 6th grade, by the time they

had progressed to the 12th grade, their differences were 
again apparent, although hot as much as if they had not 
been matched at the 6th grade.
Well, the trend?
The trends are the same as found in the unmatched, but 
the magnitude is somewhat less.
Well, is the magnitude less because they started together? 
Yes. Well, we artificially put them together.
In other words, If we take a Negro and a white student who 
have the same IQ at a given time, will they have the same 
IQ two years later?
These didn’t, I couldn*t generalize from the data.
To the extent that you have tested the pairs, what is your 
conclusion?
That the answer would be no, they do not have.
Does It tend to increase or stay the same or what, after it
has diverged?

A, In general?
Q. Is there an increase in difference or a decrease?



216

A. Oh, the difference tends to increase with increasing age, 

Q. Until maturity, or past?

A. Well, I can’t go beyond grade 12. Shat is age 18.

Q. Take the next chart a ®  identify that.

A. These are the same children as we examined them on 

reading comprehension.

Q. These are the matched pairs again?

A. That’s rifgit.

Q. They start out the same, and you are measuring them in

what? Reading?

Vocabulary, comprehension, and total. That's right, 

now, for the children that had the same IQ in the 6th grade, 

did they have identical vocabulary capacities at that time? 

Not exactly. Fairly close, but not exactly.

Did it stay the same thereafter or did it change?

The difference tended to increase from the 6th to the 12th

grade.

Q. Is that also true of reading comprehension?

A. Yes, but to a slighter extent.

Q. If you will turn to the next chart and Identify that.

A. The same children. Now we are talking about arithmetic 

achievement.

Q. Do they start approximately the same in arithmetic reasoning 

and fundamentals?

A. Very little difference there. The difference there is again 

more apparent than real. That is almost the same. But as they



217

Q.

A.

Q.

go through the school system, the reasoning difference tends 

to widen.

Now, does it tend to widen at the same rate substantially as 

the reading did in the last chart, or at a different rate?

I believe there was a difference. There is a difference 

In the rate of change.

In other words, they changed differently for arithmetic than 

for reading?

And from reasoning to fundamentals.

Dr. Osborne, have you at any time had occasion to read 

the published Dallas school tests?

A. As appeared in U. S. NEWS AND WQRID REPORT?

Yes.

Yes, I have.

Are those results constant with the results you have 

mentioned for the other cities here today?

Slight if any real difference.

Do you know of any studies which have been made outside of the 

South in areas of integrated schools?

I am familiar with a report of the Washington, D. C., schools. 

The report to which you refer has been marked in evidence 

here as Defendant *s Exhibit 20. Tell me what the figures 

in Defendant^ Exhibit 20 show in terms of what you have 

already testified to.

A. Basically the same things, if I recall, give or take for a 

gwyde here or there, but basically the same trend.



218

Q. In other words, the figures given in the D. C. report
>

are similar to the figures in the southern schools?

A. Yes.

Q. In terms of these trends which we have been discussing.

I would like to read to you at this time what purports to be 

a portion of an article from the New York Times, reporting 

the school results in the Harlem schools of New York.

(Same was marked as Intervener's Exhibit No. 4 for Identification) 

0  Q. Reading from Intervenor's Exhibit 4 for identification, which

purports to be an article from the New York Times of October 

22nd, 1965:

"The pattern in the central Harlem schools shows that 20 

perednt of the third grade pupils are below their grade level 

by about a year. Seventy percent of sixth grade pupils average 

two years below their grade level, and 85 percent of the eighth 

graders average three years behind.

"The usual measures of retardation are reading and 

arithmetic achievement. However, I.Q. scores, now widely 

discredited as an objective measure of intelligence, also 

show a marked decline."

If that statement is true, Dr. Osborne, would it be 

constant with the figures which you have testified here to this 

morning as bei tg the typical pattern of Negro and white children?

A. Yes.

Q. And in your opinion would that change and decline which is 

reported in the Times be one inherent in the children or v



one resulting from the schools?

It is not the schools. I mean, the schools are the satos.

Save you made any studies, Dr. Osborne, in the pre-school 

field to determine -whether these trends to which you have 

testified did or did not, do or do not exist before 

the child enters school?

I am in the process of making studies of that type now, 

but they havenot been published.

Have you come to any conclusions sufficient to form an 
opinion?

Tentative and cautiously, I would say.

What were the nature of the studies you have made?

The same kinds of measures were conducted with pre-school 

children and offered as a tentative conclusion, that the 

conditions obtained in the 1st, 2nd, and third grades 

also show up at the pre-school level.

What is your total conclusion as to the relationship, if any 

between the pre-school period and the school period in terns of 

these trends? Is there any difference during pre-school?

I would say no. The trend seems to be the same from pre­

school through the 12th grade.

And the differences which have been shown to Increase on 

these chart3 are differences which exist in the children at 

the time they first ccme to school?



220
A. They are apparently that, that’s right.
Q. Are these differences to which you have testified significant 

in an educational sense?
A. For instructional purposes, yes, I vould say so.
Q. Can they be attributed to chance?
A. No.

A.

Q.
A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Is there any possibility that these differences which are 
shown in each of these charts In the cities simply Is an 
accident?
Not as a sampling accident. I think the consistency with 
which all data — .
Would it be true or false to say that essentially what your 
figures have shown today is that Negro children tend to lag 
by about one year In four?
Yes, in school-type achievement.
In school-type achievement. That’s what I'm talking about. 
Yes.
Is it true or false that a difference in rate of learning 
progress exists even with children of the same IQ when we 
take a Negro and a white child?
My evidence would tend to support that.
And that there is a difference of learning ability between 
the two in terns of subject matter?
Kennedy studies and others demonstrate that, yes.
And are they consistent with your studies in the field of 
achievement?
Yes.



221

How many years did you state that you have taught?
In public school, one year —
Wall, all together.
Twenty-four, wasn't it?
Twenty-four. Based on that experience, as well as on your 
professional qualifications, Dr. Osborne, wotid you say that 
separate educational treatment is or is not desirable for 
Negro and white children?
I would say it is.
I'm talking purely on educational grounds.

Yes, Practical education.
In the major tests you made in Savannah, did you take 
any precaution to avoid the possibility that the teachers 
were below standard in the Negro schools? Did you make any 
check at all on that?
As part of another study we did study the teachers' quali­
fications .
What was your conclusion on that?
The teachers, in terms of recenfcy of training and advanced 
degrees in terms of salary,in the Negro teachers were better 
prepared and better paid than our white teachers.
In your opinion then, would it be proper to attribute the 
differences you have testified to to the teachers?
Not ifi the usual criteria of teacher qualifications is met —  

that is, advanced training, advanced degrees and salary.
In other words, you have identical or better qualifications?



222
A. Yes.
Q. —  As far as your tests could show?

Yes.
In your opinion, Dr. Osborne, what would happen to the 
achievement level in the white schools of Jackson if group 
integration were to be undertaken? I'm talking now only about 
scholastic achievement.
And this is an opinion.
This is strictly an opinion.
Well, statistically, to add the achievement levels of the two 
groups now and average them, you would, of course, have a 
lower achievement level.
Suppose you held to the came norms which are now used in 
the white schools, what would happen?
Well, the failure rate for Negro children would probably 
increase.
What if you dropped the achievement norm of the school 
to the rate previously used in the Negro school?
There would be ——  Well, no failures. I mean, limited or 
very few failures for the white children.
What would be the level of education?
It would strike an average of the two groups thrown together. 
Well, I*ra talking now about dropping the grade requirements, 
the norm requirements on a grade basis to the ones previously 
used entirely in the Negro schools.
Well, the standards would be lower if you lowered the



223
expectations.

Q* Mr. Pittman asks to what extent you tested the teachers in 
Atlanta?
That was done by the National Teacher Examination, 
sponsored by the Educational Testing Service. I did not do 
that.
And that was the basis on which you drew your conclusions? 
That1s right. Yes.
That is all I have.

THE COURT: Any cross examination by plaintiff?
MR . BELL: We have no questions. We will just renew

our motion we made at the opening part of the testimony to 
strike the testimony as irrelevant to the issues in this
case.

THE COURT: Well, I will adhere to my ruling.
MR. CANNABA: For and on behalf of all defendants, we would 

like to adopt the testimony of Dr. Osborne as the testimony 
for and on behalf of the defendants.

THE COURT: Very well.
And I will overrule the objection for the reasons I gave 

heretofore.
You may step down.

(Witness excused)



MR. PITTMAN: I would like to call Mr. Milbome back
for a question or two since the testimony of Dr. Osborne.

THE COURT: Very well.

WILLIAM S. MHJ30RNE, recalled as a witness and having previously
been duly sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION
BV MR. PITTMAN:
Q. Mr. Milbome, I believe you were qualified as an expert 

educator earlier this morning.
Is that true, Your Honor?
THE COURT: T§s, sir.

Q. In 195^, when the Supreme Court rendered its decision in tie 
famous Brown case, you were then principal of a high school in 
Louisville, Kentucky?

A. Yes, sir.
Q* When that decision was rendered in which it was held that 

segregation injures the personality of Negro children, 
were you in substantial agreement with that holding or assumption 
at that time?

A. Yes, sir, I was in agreement with it.
Q. Now, in 1956 when the integration first took place in

louisville, were you still of the opinion that segregation 
injured the personalities of the Negro children and that the 
children should be integrated?

A. I was still of the opinion that integration was better than



225

segregation.
Q. Nov, in the light of your experience with integrated schools 

from 1956 to 1962, do you still believe that integrated

Q.
A.

Q.

A.

schools are better than segregated schools for Negro 
children and for white children?
No, sir. From ray experience I have reached the conclusion 
that the integration that we were undertaking was in the 
name of a social revolution that was actually injurious 
to children.
Injurious to all children or just some children?
Injurious to all.
Is that conclusion based both on your experience and your 
present knowledge as an educator?
It is based on ray personal experience in one school.
How much integration took place in Louisville after 1956 in 
your school?
As I stated earlier —
—  Proportionately in numbers.
A relatively small amount at the beginning, increasing to 
approximately 20 percent over a period of time in that par­
ticular school.
I ask you to state whether or not the educational standards of 
that school went down in the same proportion that the number 
of colored students increased in the student body?
Gradual erosion was about in the same proportion as the 
increase of Negro students.



Q*

226

About what period or what time between 1956 and 1962 did 
you come to realize from your experience as a school 
principal and a school man, educator, that a mistake had 
been made?

A.

•

Well, after about some two or three years' experience with 
it, I came to the conclusion that we were exploiting the 
children in the name of a social revolution —  that is, 
that we were assuming that there waa equal ability, and 
moving along that line, and that put some children, Negro 
children, in a position they should not have been put in.

Q. You heard the testimony of Dr. Osborne. The effect of it was 
that Negro children fall behind white children in school 
approximately one year in every four. Does that accord with 
your observation, substantially, as principal of Male High 
School in Louisville?

®  A. In general, yes. Of course, as to the fail-back, I can't 
document it exactly as he had it.

Q. As an educator, if you should assume that what Dr. Osborne 
said is true, that Negro children fall behind white children 
approximately one year in every four, I will ask you to 
state to the Court what effect that would have upon the 
educational program where substantial numbers of normal 
children — - that is, those who make normal progress 
according to Caucasian standards —  are forced into the same 
rocms and under the same teacher with children who are fall! ng 
behind one year in every four. What is the effect of that?



A. I think ire would be doing a great disservice to the children.
Q. would you Injure the personality of all the children in that 

classroom?
A. You*d injure the personality of many.
Q,. Of many?
A. Yes.
Q,. state, as an educator, the difference between teaching a 

class where all or where substantially all proceeed at 
approximately the same rate and teaching a class where one 
portion of it, a substantial portion of it in number, fall 
behind in gross amounts each year. What is the difference 
from a standpoint of a teacher?

A. Well, it is pretty generally known and accepted that where 
you have a viab spread of ability in a given class that the 
teacher*s time is not used in the best manner, for the simple 
reason that she has got to make planning and exceptions for 
this level, for this level, and for that level, instead of being 
able to concentrate on a homogeneous group.

Q. Then as a result, if a parent has a child he wants to mare 
along at a normal rate, and that child can move along at a 
normal rate, if integration continues in Louisville or if it 
is instituted in Jackson, will it be necessary for that parent 
to send that child to a private school?

A. Well, the word "necessary" has a number of interpretations. —
Q. Would it be advisable, then?
A. Would probably be advisable if the parent could afford it to



228

put him In a private school, or in a school all Megro or 
all -white.

Q. When a group of children in the classroom are failing or 
tend to fail and they drop behind and they realize they 
can’t catch up and keep up, -what is the result?

A. Well, I think failure i3 not a desirable thing. Failure is 
fatal. It does something to the child's ego, his personality, 
to fail.

Q. Docs that child, in your experience as an educator, try to com 
ponsate in name way for that deficiency which he knows he has 
and which he knows his schoolmates know he has?

A. Many of them do.
And what form does that take frequently?
Well, It could take various forms. With one pupil it might 
be Just a huge Indifference to the whole thing. "So what?
Who cares?" To another it might take a different form. He 
might withdraw into himself and become shy, or withdraw from 
school. With others It might compensate for that by 
showing off, being the worst boy or the worst girl in the
class.

Q. Anti-social conduct?
A. Wot necessarily anti-social. It's Just a show-off.
Q,. What effect does that have on the progress of normal children, 

scholastic progress?
A. Well, the total effect Is Just a lowering of your school 

morale and your school achievement.



229

A.

Now, one other things Are you as an educator acquainted 
with the statistics as to the number, relative number, of 
graduates of southern Negro high schools who qualify for 
college, as compared with the relative number of graduates of 
integrated high schools in the north who qualify for college 
entrance?
I have seen statistics along that line.
Do you believe them to be credible?
To the effect that the opportunity that a Negro has of going on 
to college if ha3 graduated from an all-Negro school is 
much beyond that of a Negro who has graduated from an 
integrated school.
Now, you said ''"much beyond. ” Could you give us in numbers 
what your opinion would be?
It has been some years since I heard this, but at that 
time, as I recall, the statement was that the opportunity 
open to a southern Negro hi^i school graduate was about seven 
to one of getting into college over that of a graduate from 
an integrated school.
Now, in conclusion, I will ask you, based upon your knowledge 
as an educator and your experience and your efforts to make 
integration work in Louisville, can you point to any area in 
which you believe or you can state that integration has helped 
any school children as a group since 1954?
I can’t point to anything specific.



250

Q.

A.

Q-

But you can point to specific examples of injury or harm to the 
educational program? Is that right?
Yes, sir, I can.
That is all.

THE COURT: Any questions by other defendants?
MR. WATKDE: No, sir.
THE COURT: Any cross examination?
MR. HEIL: No, Your Honor.
TEE COURT: You may step down.

(Witness excused)

MR. CANKADA; Our witness would be Dr. Kirby Walker, 
who will be a rather lengthy witness. Would you like to 
start before lunch or after lunch? We would prefer to put 
him on after lunch and go through without breaking.

THE COURT: Well, is he here?
MR. GANNADA: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: We might start out for about ten minutes.

KIRBY P. WAIKER, called as a witness in his own behalf and having 
been duly sworn, testified aa follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. CANNAm:

Q. State your name to the reporter, please.
A. Kirby P. Walker.
Q. Are you the same Kirby P. Walker who previously testified



251

A.

Q.
A.

Q.

A.

Q.
A.

In this case, as a defendant In this case?
Yes, sir.
Mr. Walker, for whom do you work?
Board of Trustees of the Jackson Public Schools.
How lone have youworked for the Board of Trustees of the 
Jackson Public Schools?
Since August, 1955*
In what capacity?
In August, 1955, I was the assistant to the superintendent 
of the schools. In December of 1955 I was elected acting 
superintendent of schools, and since January of 1957 I have been 

superintendent of the schools of this district.

What is your educational training, Mr. Walker?
A. I graduated from the Hattiesburg High School in 1912. I

Q.
A.

was graduated from Southwestern in Tennessee in 1922 with an 
AB degree. I wa graduated from the University of Chicago with 
an MA. degree in 193^. I have attended George Peabody College 
in Tennessee, and have worked at the University of Southern 
Mississippi and the University of Mississippi.
Do you belong to any educational associations?
I am a member of the Mississippi Educational Association; 
the National Educational Association; the American Association 
of School Administrators. I am a past president of the 
Southern Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools;
I have been a member of the advisory committee to the 
U. S. Commissioner of P’ducatlon; I have been chairman of



the advisory conmitteo to the Educational Testing Service for 
National Teacher Examinations. I think that's sufficient.

THE C0ORT: I believe here is a very good place to
stop. I believe we will have recess until one-thirty.

("Whereupon the court was recessed until Is 30 P.M.)

After Recess

THE COURT: Very well, you may proceed.
(Mr. Cannada continues:)
Q. I believe when we recessed for lunch you were in the 

process of giving us the professinal organizations to 
wiiich you belonged and the offices to which you have 
been elected. Would you continue that? Also, any 
training that you have had pertaining to the educational 
field.

A. Yes, sir. With respect to my employment record, I was first 
employed as a teacher of grades eight to twelve at the 
Forest County Agricultural High School from 1922 to 1925.
I was superintendent of that school from 1925 to 1932.
In 1932 I was appointed State supervisor of Agricultural High 
Schools and Junior Colleges of the State Department of 
Education of Mississippi. In 193^ and 1935 I was a state 
director for the emergency educational program sponsored by 
the State Department of Education, in which there were seme 
2,000 teachers employed and a staff of assistants to the di­
rector. I have been a visiting lecturer at the University of



Houston at Houston, Texas. The same at the University of 
Texas. I have served as a member of the test administration 
team of some sixty persons, as I recall, vho administered 
tests In a statewide survey of public education in 
Mississippi about 1926 or 27. This study was directed by 
Br. M. V. O’Shea, vho was the Dean of Education at the 
University of Wisconsin. I was chairman of the Research 
and Service Commission, for three years for the Southern 
Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools, doing research 
for the organization to aid it in its work in accrediting 
institutions of higher learnings at the secondary level in 
the State of Mississippi, in the southern states. I am a 
member of the National Society for the Study of Education; 
the honorary educational fraternity, Phi Delta. Kappa. I was 
cited by the University of Chicago as an alumnus vho was 
recognized as a useful citizen. Southwestern in Tennessee 
conferred the doctorate on me for my service in public 
education. I was a member of the connittee ’mown as the 
Mid-Century Comnittee on Outcomes in Elementary Education, 
which was a joint project of the United States Office of 
Education, of the Educational Testing Service of Princeton, 
New Jersey, and of the Elementary School Principals Associ­
ation of the National Educational Association. This project 
was financed by the Russell Sage Pbunclation, and its report 
was published.

I think this very well completes the resume of my work



224

experience.

Q. Mr*. Walker, relating your experience, you indicated that you 

were a part of a team back in 1926 and 1927 that made a 

survey of the educational facilities and training in 

Mississippi by Mr. M. V. O'Shea? Is that correct?

A. That is right.

Q. I hand you a book and ask you if you recognize this.

(Hands to witness)

A. This is the publication by the B. B. Jones Fund, titled 

A STATE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM AT WORK, and I am identified on 

page 16 as a member of the team of educators who administered 

the test in the State of Mississippi.

MR. CAHNABA: If the Court please, we would like to
introduce this entire book I ito evidence, with the right 
to withdraw the original and place a copy In the record.

THE COURT: Very well. That could be done.
(Same received In evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit Ho.21.) 
Q. Mr. Walker, I hand you this book which has now been marked as

Exhibit D-21 to the testimony of the defendants and ask you 
when this wa3 published and the name of the publisher.

A. This was published in 1927 by the Bernard B. Jones Fund.
Q. Would you tell the Court a little of the history of that

study and aurvey, and in general the substance of the findings?
A. Governor Whitfield in 1925 went to Madison, Wisconsin, and 

prevailed on Dean O'Shea to organize a study to be made in 
this state as to the ability and the achievement of its



youth in public schools and in colleges and universities.

Can you tell us who Mr. 0*Shea -was?

Dr. O'Shea was the Dean of Education in the School of 

Education at the University of Wisconsin. The study took 

probably a year, as I recall. It involved primarily the 

measurement by tests, group tests, of youth of the state, 

both Negro and white. These findings are recorded here, 

charted, and there are some recommendations and conclusions as 

to improving the program of education in the State of 

Mississippi, an I recall.

Mr. Walker, you have heard the testimony of Mr. Barker con­

cerning the tests that have been given to the Negro and white 

pupils of the Jackson Municipal Separate School District, 
have you not?

I have.

I ask you in general do the findings that are reflected in Dr. 

Barker's charts and reflected in the pupils of the Jackson 

Municipal Separate School District parallel? or are they 

similar or dissimilar to the findings made by this study back 

in 1926, insofar as the distinctions between the Negro and 

white pupils is concerned.

There are tables in the O ’Shea report as to the distribution 

of Negro pupils with respect to IQ. in each grade of elementary 

and high schools. Biis has to do with mental ability to do 

the things that we do at school. And I see here the median 

score, IQ, ranges from 60 to as high as 86 from grades one



e

Q

to tvelve, ftie average or the median for 5*000 randomly 
selected Negro pupils, being 75.

There is also a table showing the distribution of white 
pupils in respect to IQ in elementary and high schools.
This involves some 23,000 pupils randomly selected, whose 
median IQ's from grades one to twelve ranged from 92 to 101, 
with a median for all of 95.

There likewise is a table showing achievement of Negro 
high school seniors in math, science, in history and social 
studies; and the same is true for white pupils, and the 
disparity there is somewhat in keeping with the disparity 
that we find between white and Negro pupils and the mental 
ability and achievement. And these data seem to confirm and 
support the evidence that was submitted by Dr. Barker yesterday 
as to the difference in mental ability and in academic achieve­
ment of pupils in this particular school system.
I ask you, Mr. Walker, does the information that is contained 
in this O'Shea report insofar as the mental ability and
achievement of the Negro and the white pupils back in 1926
conform in general with the relative abilities between the 
two races as reflected by the charts heretofore introduced 
pertaining to the pupils of the Jackson Municipal Separate
School District?

A. My answer to that is yes, recognizing that the instruments 
that were used for testing 37 or 38 years ago have been 
improved somewhat, but the norms that were established then



tor the nation and the norms that were established for the 
state with respect to the two groups, and the norms that we 
have today for the nation and for our district, the district 
here, are very similar.
Mr. Walker, I believe you stated that you have been superinten­

dent of the Public schools of Jackson for —  since 1937?
That*3 right.

I believe It has also been brought out here in your 
previous testimony that in 195^ the school board turned over 
the question of taking enrollments and making temporary assign- 
n©nts ol the pupils of this district to you. Will you explain 
to the Court when this was done, how it was done, And, if you 
know, why it was done?

Yes, sir. In August, 19f&, after a conference with counsel 
for the board of trustees in which, as X understood it, there 
was some doubt, or maybe -—  using slightly different 
language - there mig#it be a cloud over the constitutional 
provision of this state for the operation of separate schools. 
It was counsel’s advice to the board that since this might not 
be a legal matter any longer that it would be wise for the 
superintendent,as professional educator and as professional 
advisor to the board of trustees,to be fully and who lly 
responsible for admitting, assigning, pupils on an annual 
basis.

This, the board acted, striking from its records all 
provisions for the zoning cf pupils by school attendance



areas, and left the superintendent in the position of 
having to devise a way to get pupils in school in a 
reasonable manner, organized and ready for instruction.
I had to drav on my background of seventeen years of 
working with people in this community in a rather intimate way 
as a school man, having worked with teachers, know! g them 
personally, knowing literally thousands of patrons, having 
been in classrooms on an average at least one day a week 
visiting classes, interrogating pupils, chatting with 
teachers, asking principals about the school operation, 
discussing the achievement, the performances, the general 
tone of the school, knowing something of the social, cultural 
interests of parents, the aspirations for their children, 
and being concerned, as I am sincerely concerned, and also 
concerned as a public school administrator to discharge my 
duties to the very best of my ability. I tried to devise a 
way to to assign children to a school that would insure for 
them, all children, white or Negro, with the resources that we 
had, so that as little time would be lost as was possible 
and we would be involved in the instructional program without 
any undue delay.

Therefore, on my own responsibility, knowing where 
schools were situated, knowing generally the number of pupils 
that there were or are, were in the community at that time, 
and having available to us a biannual survey of the number



of educables in the district as to residence, age, grade 
level, I made a public announcement, giving directions to 
parents through the press that their children should be 
taken to a school as directed, where they would make appli­
cation for admission and where they would be temporarily 
assigned, subject to permanent assignment by the board of 
trustees at a shhsequent date.

At the same time, I instructed principals of schools, 
both white and Negro, that the pupils who were directed to 
their buildings were to receive applications and to assign 
the child or children to the respective schools on a temporary 
basis.

This generally was complied with. The provision was also 
made and announcement simultaneously provided, copies of 
which were placed in the hands of principals and generally 
made known to anyone who was interested in it, that at the 
staff level provision was being made to receive any requests 
for a change or changes of assignments of pupils that parents 
might deem advisable. This wa3 to be effected by making a 

rather simple request: naming the child, his age, his grade, 
the name of the parent, and stating the reason why the parent 
was seeking request of the temporary assignment to be changed 
to another school.

These requests were made by Negro pupils at the adminis­
trative offices of the school district, which are situated 
at 1060 lynch Street, and for the other pupils at the adminis-



trative offices at 662 South President.

Normally we receive some three, four, five hundred 

requests for changes of assignments, and usually, assuming 

the reasons submitted are valid and not Just simply a matter 

of preference but have a basis for good judgment, if we had 

teachers and classroom facilities to acconsnodate these 

changes and it did not create an undue demand administratively 

on us in accommodating such c hanges, these were honored.

This work is usually attended to in&out two cr three days 

following the actual opening of school, and I'd say within 

a week's time parents have been adaised in person as to whether 

or not their requests for changes have been approved or not, 

and at a regular meeting of the board of trustees some days 

later we have been making report to the board as to the 

assignment, temporary assignment, of pupils, following which 

the board has made assignments permanent.

This procedure continues throughout the year for any 

newcoming pupils or pupils who may change their residence 

from one part of the school district to another.

I believe this fairly well describes what was done when 

we were given the responsibility of assigning pupils on an 
individual basis.

Q. As I understand your testimony, Mr. Walker, this procedure was 

prescribed by you in the summer of 1954 for the school



241

A.

Q.
A.

A.

Q.

session *54-*55# is that correct?

Eiat Is right.

Has that procedure in substance been followed ever since?

It has. It has been followed with very little change, other 

than annually we have been compelled to make some changes 

in our instructions as to where children should go to —  or 

the parents of the child should go to make application for 

admission, that being due to two conditions: one, the

district has grown considerably in area and in population, 

school population; and, second, we have had some build-ups 

in some areas where, as new facilities were made available, we 

were able to make abetter assignment or distribution of pupils 

to schools.

Has at any time since the summer of 1954 to date the board of 

trustees Interfered in any way In your conduct of your 

responsibilities under this delegation to you of taking these 

applications and making the temporary assignments?

Ho, the board has made no inquiry, has not interfered, and has 

not been concerned, other than to act as we have recommended 

each month on the recommendation that assignments that have 

been made temporary are now prepared or ready to be marked or 

made permanent.

Mr. Walker, In the handlirg of these several hundred, as you 

say, requests for transfer each year, do you explain to the 

parents why a particular transfer is or is not approved, or

why it isn’t approved If it isn’t?



If there has been a request for a change of assignment which 
we have not been able to honor, we have reported to the 
parent that his application could not be honored and we have 
stated the reasons why. We have often asked, 'Would you like 
for us to hold this request in suspense so that, if at a 
later date the enrollment of the educational situation at 
that school became different from what it was that time, we 
might then review it and make the change?"
Mr. Walker, in the approximately ten years in which this 
procedure has been in effect, has there been a single pupil 
or a single parent to appeal to the board of trustees from the 
temporary assignment previously made by you or under your 
supervision?
There has been none.
As I understand your testimony, the board of trustees has 
never actually passed on a protest or complaint from any pupil 
or parent in this district?
We have had no protest, we have had no announced intention to 
protest; we hove had 3ome very earnest people who were very- 
eager to have the change in assignment made, but without 
exception, when we revealed to them the actual facts with 
respect to teaching loads and the ability to serve the 
child where he was then as compared to where they were asking 
to be transferred, they have seemed to have been satisfied.
I would say that this sort of arrangement, in ray own mind, 
was filled with possibilities of real difficult school



243
administration. It has proved, surprisingly to me, that 

it can be done and that people generally are very cooperative] 

and this applies to all of them. We haven’t really had a 

serious problem with respect to the assignment of pupils 

as we have directed. I can say to you that it perplexes 

some people; they get annoyed because I can’t tell them as 

of new where their child will be attending school next 

September. As a matter of fact, I don’t know now and will 

not until shortly before the opening of school.

.That answers my next question. As a matter of fact, as I 

understand your testimony, you do this each year independent 

entirely of the preceding year? Is that correct?

A. That is correct.

At what time during each year under your procedure 

will you entertain any request for transfers or for

assignment to a particular school?
>

All applications are invited and are to be made if they are 

residents of the district and wish to attend the public 

school, during the week immediately preceding the opening 

of the school session, which, by board policy, is the second 

Monday In September.

So that, Mr. Walker, if any parent, white or Negro, of this 

district, if he should inquire of you prior to September of any 

particular year as to where his child or children will attend
V- ; > * 1 v . - - ^

school the next year, what has been your answer?

My answer is, and has been for the past ten years, that



I

244

provision will be made and announcement will be made 
for you to make an application at a school, at which time you 
will make written application for your child to attend, and he 
will be assigned at that tine, but until that announcement 
is made, I am not in position to advise where the child will 
attend school.

Q. Is the parent advised at that time concerning his ri$it to
make a request for a transfer if he is dissatisfied with 
the temporary assignment?
That question is often naked. "Suppose he is assigned to a 
school that I don't want him to attend? I’d rather he 
attend another school.11 We take the tine then to explain 
that an opportunity is provided for them to make written 
request, but until they have actually made an application and
until they have actually been assigned —  the child has been 
assigned to a school —  we cannot entertain applications for 
changes of assignment.

Nov, there are two reasons for that. One of them is that 
information is not available to us as to where we are going
to direct them to go for their assignment —  that is, early. 
The second reason is that many of the inquiries that we have 
early in the year are by persons who may not even be in the

/ I ■ V •„ ,r  . .school district or may be moving to other areas of the 
school district or contemplating it, and we can't anticipate
to that extent what our answer should be to accoaanodate any

• 1 l  ■ i V,:- ' JV _  £number of requests that Diay not be too firm in their original



Mr. Walker, In the last ten years since 195^, has there been a 

3Ingle exception to this procedure that you have stated, 

insofar as waiting until the week before the opening of 

school and having everyone make application and be tempo­

rarily assigned before he or she has any idea where he or 

she shall attend?

None that I know of. You name the week, and it could be that 

in the ten year period we may have had seven or eight days, 

but the same procedure has been followed.

This procedure is followed universally, for all parents and 

pupils of this district?

Thatfs correct.

Now, you stated that in settin g up this procedure you 

announced publically through the press that certain 

students were to go to sertain schools to make their appli­

cations for enrollment and to be temporarily assigned. In 

making that decision, did you take into consideration the 

characteristics of the races, or the races themselves, of 

the pupils of this district?

Veil, I was inferring that. If I did not make it clear in 

my earlier statement —  That I had personal knowledge of the 

operation of the schools, the facilities, where they are, the 

teachers, their fitness for their respective jobs. I knew of 

the academic performance of pupils. I knew that as to white anc 

Negro pupils as far back as 1927 when I was a member of this 

study team, testing them. I had seen in the annual reports



246

of principals, supervisors, directors of the school 

system reports as to pupil ability, achievement, promotion.

I had what I considered adequate professional background to 

make a professional judgment as to the assignment of all 

pupils.

Q,. As I understand it, in making, issuing, your instructions

for the making of the applications for admission and temporary 

assignment, you did have pupils of the Negro race 

make applications to schools at 'which pupils of the 

white race did not make application, and vice versa?

A. Shat is right.
Did you give instructions to the principals or teachers of 

those respective schools as to which pupils would be 

assigned to the school that he or she was in charge of?

Yes. ©lat was actually in form of a directive to all 

principals, giving them information, specific information, that 

white pupils within certain prescribed areas as of that 

moment would be directed to certain schools; they would take 

their applications for admission, and after receiving the 

applications, they would be assigned temporarily by the prin­

cipal or the teacher, as we had instructed. The same applied 

to Negro pupils.

So that in making your temporary assignments, the race or the 

characteristics of the race was a factor in the making of your 

decision? Is that correct?

It was the base of it.



Q. Dr. Walker, would you explain to the Court vhy, In your judgment 

as an educator. If there Is any reason for, from educational 

reasoning looking toward the education to be furnished to 

the pupils of this district, and In exercising your 

judgment in making the temporary assignments —  why you have 

taken into consideration the characteristics of these two 
races?

A. Well, if I might, I would like to make a historical, coaraent 

or two before answering that question specifically.

la this state nearly a hundred years ago following a period 

of military occupation, a constitutional convention was held, 

the membership of which was, as I would think of it, a new 

political order. That convention had as one of its jobs 

devising a constitution under the new day following the War 

Between the States, and one of the sections had to do with 
education.

Oils convention was in session a number of days, and it 

concluded that there should be separate schools for the white 
and Negro races.

Q. What was the year of that convention?

A. 1868, and I believe the constitution was adopted in 1869.

This means to me, as I review it, that this was the idea 

of the membership of that convention, which had a number of 

Negro citizens in its membership. It was their idea that we 

should have separate schools for the races. It seems to me it 

is a good idea, and I think they were night.



Under that constitution in 1888 the people of this school 

district determined for themselves that they would organize 

a graded school system in what was then called a separate 

school district. This provided for a common school board 

for the schools in the district, white and Negro. That 

arrangement for the administration of schools remained in 

effect or has remained in effect until this date.

Now, I mentioned earlier that in 1954 a new problem was 

posed for the district. Our board of trustees detemined 

that in light of the new order that had been given and its 

possible clouding effect on the constitution of this state with 

respect to separate schools, the superintendent should act 

professionally in this business of administering education in 

the assignment of pupils and organizing pupils for instruction.

I have mentioned that I had background in this school system 

for that, and I have described what I have tried to do v 

in the administration of this program. I think it should be 

pointed out that in this syfetem there are thousands of children, 

that roughly the ratio is 60 percent white and 40 percent Negro. 

This may vary some one or two percent, but generally this is 

the pattern, for a number of years. This district has a 

sufficient number of white and Negro pupils, it has a sufficient 

number of white and Negro teachers, it lias sufficient number of 

supervisory and administrative staff to give each race of 

children, based on their mental ability, based on the perfor­

mance record that we have known for years, we have felt that



we had a very fortunate situation where ve were in a 

position to go right ahead with an instructional program that 

would be beneficial to both groups*

Let me be a little more specific. Teachers in their 

relationship tothe child who is assigned to him, or to 

them, is in fact in loco parentis. When the 1st grade 

child comes to school, he comes with roughly six years of 

previous learning, identifyinghimself with his friends, 

selecting his associates, expressing his preferences and 

letting them be known; he develops habits, he has attitudes 

that have been given him by his parents and by his friends 

and associates. We have assigned children to teachers who, 

in place of parents, if you please, are ready, prepared, 

willing, capable of serving that child as a parent and as a 

teacher while the child is in the custody of the school.

This is desirable.

As my former distinguished colleague, Mr. James Gooden, 

said yesterday —  and I'm in agreement with him —  that a 

child must be made to feel at ease, be wanted, loved, to 

perform at his best. Wiis holds whether the child is white 

or Negro, Actually, in the early years of school life, a 

teacher does many things, administers to a child in many ways 

over and beyond that of simply serving as a formal director 

of his learning. They help them in toilet, they help them 

with their lunches, they help train them in their moral 

values. And it seemed to me, and still stems to me, that



250

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.
A.

the teacher In hiB or her relationship with the child should 

be one who understands the culture, who understands the 

l abilities, who aspires for that child as he would for his 

own child that his educational opportunities be good. This to 

me then says that it would have bean a mistake for me to 

have thought of anything else than to have assigned a child 

to a teacher where there would be rapport and a good working 

relationship.

let mo go a bit further. —

Let me interrupt at that point, Dr. Walker. Of course, in the 

first six years of the age of a child the school system as 

such has no control over him at all?

None whatsoever.

So that when he comes to school, a six year old for the first 

time, you have to work with him and do with him as you get him 

and try to give him the best education you can? 

lhat is right.

All right. Go ahead.

I was going to comment next that there is a partnership rela­

tionship or a reciprocal relationship between teacher and 

parent. I am fimn In my belief that there is no parent, or 

there was no parent In 1$5^ and up until recently I knew of 

no sincere parent who would have entertained the idea, or 

who did entertain the idea, that hi child should be placed 

in a different school situation than to which we had assigned 

him; namely, that the Negro pupils expected and their parents



I

expected to have them taught by our capable Negro teachers, and 

the white parents expected the same of their white teachers.

'Hie point la that our local experience, our local facts,

—  and I'm speaking for this district —  could not be 

ignored, and had I disregarded the educational and the 

social facts that are characteristic of white and Negro 

pupils, I would have been derelict in ray duty to both groups, 

and injury would have cane to both.

Q. Are you speaking in that regard with respect to the education 

of these people?

A. I am speaking of education of children. That is our area 

of responsibility.

Q. Do you feel you are charged with the responsibility for the 

social reformation of this area?

A. No, sir. Our duty is to conduct an educational program as 

prescribed by the state that will provide for children who 

enter the schools opportunity to acquire knowledge, usable 

skills, good attitudes, and an understanding of moral values.

Q.. Mr. Walker, in connection with the education of these pupils, 

would you give us a basic distinction between a pupil and a 

student?

A. We refer to children in the cotranon schools, grades one to 

twelve, as pupils, not as students. Students are persons -—  

or we think of them as individuals who are capable of 

independent study, who can more or less on self-determination 

direct their learning. Pupils are those who are actually

251



subjec t to direction, discipline, management, and who are, 

as I said earlier, in a relationship more like that of a child 

to his parents than as a matured 3Q If-determining individuals
j ~ ' i  V .  \ f.' . • ..

Q, As a matter of fact, Mr. Walter, in the conduct of the

schools here in this district, legally as veil as practically, 

are you and your principals and teachers serving in the 

place of parents \diile the pupils are on the vay to school, 

in school, and on their vay home?

A. That is my understanding, and that is our direction to

principals, to teachers, that at the time a child leaves his 

home until he returns at the close of a school day, he 

is fender the teacher's charge and our responsibility.

Q. Mr. Walker, even if this were not true legally, as a practical 

matter would it be time?

A. Well, I think parents expect it of us. Right.

Q. In making your decision concerning the assignment of these 

pupils, you have indicated you tOok into consideration the 

characteristics as developed by the pupil, of the child, 

before he comes to the school that he had developed over the 

six years before he starts to school, and he presents himself 

for education, and you in the exercise of your responsibility 

have tried to assign him to a school to which he would 

get the best education which this district was capable of 

giving him. Bid you also take 1 rto consideration, or did 

you not, the achievement and ability level as reflected by the 

records of your district?



255
A« Difes, air. We have records similar to those that were 

submitted by Jr. Barker that 50 back to 1550, 1940, and 

possibly earlier. While not in the same form, the general 

pattern of each of these sets of records over a period of 

years is very similar to that which was submitted by ft*.

Barker, and, as I have indicated earlier, consistent with 

the findings of the O ’Shea study in 1927? which covered 

the state.

Q, Mr. Walker, you have heard Dr. Barker testify concerning the 

various charts and graphs and information he has presented 

as a result of the tests given in this district, have you not?

A. Yes, sir, I have.

Q. You were familiar with that information at the time it was 

compiled by nr. Barker?

A, That information is seen by me and submitted to the board

of trustees as a part of my responsibility to the board annually. 

And you had this information, or similar Information, 

available to you in 1954 when you first made the decision?

A, I did.

Q. —  Concerning the assignment of these children?

A. 1 did, and prior to that also.

Q* And you have had the same information each year since?

A. Somewhat similar, yes, sir.

Q« Have you had anything in the information since 1954 that 

would lead you to a conclusion that your judgment in this is 

wrong or even questionable?



A. Caere is no basis at all for me, acting in good

faith as a person responsible for th© education of all 

the youth of this district, to modify the present plan of 

assigning pupils to schools.
Let m  say here that the fact that there are differences 

may not be a matter that any one of us vants to deal with 

or face, but they are factual as we see them. I have many 

esteemed friends of the Negro race. I Served approximately 

500 Negro teachers and principals, supervisors. I serve 

also approximately 850 white teachers and principals and 

supervisors. I meet with teachers, I have advising groups 

of Negroes and whites, professional and lay persons. Uhls 

is not a matter for me to have animus about, to be loud in 

talk. This to me is an educational problem, one to be dealt 

with as objectively as I know how, as fairly as I know how, 

which leads me to say that not only do I have an obligation 

to a professional staff, I have an obligation to be fair 

to the children and fair to the taxpayers who provide a 

program of education and facilities. I am a prudent person.

We ere in a state or district that’s relatively not a 

wealthy district nor a wealthy state. I must, as a responsible, 

practicing school administrator, must be intelligent and 

reasonable in trying to provide administrative organization, 

personnel, and the use of material resource so that every 

child will find in the public education service in this 

district —  which is mass education, more than 55,000



255
children being enrolled in these schools —  they must 

find —  we must use these resources so that they will find 

within these limits their beat opportunities to develop 

themselves educationally,
. . •' K '*-***4 1

Q. Mr. Walker, as I understand what you have said then, it Is

that since fchj a has been in effect for the last ten years and

the responsibility has been yours, you have seen nothing from 
standpoint,

the educational/aachievement-viBe or otherwise, from any 

other factor, that would lead you to the conclusion that 

& change should be made In these temporary assignments?

A. Well, In light of the experience that we have, the evidence
■

that is before us, I think we would be capricious in our 

action and on an unsound basis if we had proposed to the board
*  t , w|45r r  ,/*V- •

of trustees that it modify in any way the organisation and 

administration of schools as we have been recommending.

Q. That is from the education of the children?

A. Correct.
t ■ r ,  ’

Q. Mr. Walker, I want to ask you this*.

In the performance of the exercise of your duties and 

responsibilities, have you called upon the responsible Negro 

citizens, as well as white citizens, to analyze this school 

system and make re commendations and suggestions?

A. Yes. About three and a half years ago the Board of Trustees 

was very concerned about the rapid growth of the district, 

the increasing tax rates, and the question as to whether or 

not the district would be able to maintain its educational



services at the level that they were then operating. It 

occurred to those of us In the administrative staff of the

board of trustees that the best way to look at that question

vas to actually make & comprehensive study of the facility 

use and personnel us© of the public schools of this district.

Ve accordingly made a re comas ndat ion to the board that it

establish an advisory body of lay citizens, one-third of whom 

would be representative of professional business life of the 

community, one-third of whom would be homemakers, mothers and 

fathers, without regard to occupation or professional basis 

or status, and the third be composed of persons in education

who are not necessarily members of the staff of the public 

school system.

This group of some 25 or JO persons, as I recall,

invited approximately 90 white citizens, using the same general 

category of representation as I described far the advisory 

body, and a similar ccianitteeof about 90 Negro citizens. The 

suggestions for the membership of this cotanittee came from 

persons outside of the school board or outside of the school 

staff. An advisor, a consultant, was retained by the board

to work with the study caanlttee* tjhlte and Negro, with

membership of about 90 each, and to serve as a consultant to 

the advisory body that would finally submit a report to the 
board.

Now, your question was whether or not there was an 

opportunity or had there been Negro and white citizens



257
advising on the operation of the schools, I believe*

Shortly after this study was under way, it was concluded that 

they would be very comprehensive in their work, and this 

applied to both the Negro and the white study committees.

They were given complete rein to inquire into, visit, inspect 

and evaluate any part of the school operation, finance, facilities, 

personnel, pupil achievement, accounting, o p whatever they 

ware interested in* This was done, the product of which 

was a report to the board in due time "—  I*d say probably 

a year later —  advising the board on the best use that it 

might make of personnel and facility and material resource.

<1* As a result of that study or any other studies that have been
i

conducted, has there fever been a suggestion or a recommendation 

that your procedure of making tenporary assignments, talcing 

applications for enrollment and making temporary assignments, 

be changed in any way?

A* None whatsoever, by white or Negro.

Q. As a matter of fact, ia there any real distinction in this 

district between the facilities, the courses of study, or the 

courses offered to the members of the white and Negro races?

A* I testified yesterday, I believe it was, that there vas no 

material or substantial difference in program or services, and 

I know certainly from a standpoint of board policy and 

Intent of school administration there is none*



258

Q,. in other vords, the facilities, course of study, and the 

program of study is available to all, regardless of the 

group to which they belong?

A. That is right.
* * * *1 ,v '. V '• " ‘V '/•W ' f '  • *v * ’ "*<tat • : '*» • -  « if,-. . $ V ‘ y  • / V  • . * ;  ‘ /.•’ * f . .  - •

Q. And are there any material differences in the teachers

between the two groups?

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. Mr. Walker, you have heard the testimony of Mr. Barker to the

effect that ft?am the mental abilities test it appears that
.

the gap between the white pupils and the Negro pupils widens 

as they progress, whereas by and large in this district the 

achievement level, while there is a substantial gap, remains 

fairly constant. You have heard him further testify that 

it is his opinion that is a result of a super or extraspecial 

effort on the part of the Negro pupils,in that they are 

maintaining the seme gap, even thou^i their IQ or their 

ability is falling off. Do you agree with that?

A. I agree with that, and I attribute that to a real earnest 

effort on the part of teachers in our Negro schools to close

the gap, so to speak, or to overcome any limitation the child
.

may have. I believe the word that we would normally use to 

describe it would be that they were over-achieving, the point 

being that they were achieving at a better level or a better 

rate than we would normally expect, based on their mental 

ability as revealed by the testing that has been used 

heretofore.



259

Q, I gather you are proud of that record?

A, I think It is an excellent record, and I think teachers 

are very proud of it.

q . From an educational standpoint, you think that is desirable? 

A. That they improve?

Q. Yes, sir.

A. I certainly do.
If, many years in the future down the road, that gap should 

close between these two groups, would that have any 

effect upon your thinking as an educator?

Let me comment here, if I may. And I think I see some of 

this in testimony I have witnessed here.

The debate between nature or nurture, as to which is the 

prevalent factor, has been going on for some time. I do not 

pose as a sociologist nor as a geneticist, psychiatrist,

psychologist, or biologist; I am a practical,practicing, 

school administrator. I have been earnestly evaluating 

instruction; I have been personally in classrooms;

I'm not a desksitting superintendent. If the facts 

change where we have a different evidence as to mental 

ability, a different evidence as to achievement, with

that information I would be compelled by duty and by

conscience to report to the board of trustees and advise

them as to the import of this in educational organisation of 

the schools for which they are responsible.



260

i

q . As I understand your testimony, your concern is for the 

best education possible for the children of all races, and 

that is That you vill attempt to do, regardless of the social 

problem?

A. That is my duty.

Q. And that is what you have been doing since you have had this 

responsibility as superintendent of these public schools?

A. It certainly is, and will continue to be.

Q. And in your Judgment as an educator, the assignment procedure 

that is now being followed and has b e m  followed for the 

last ten years is accomplishing the best education for the 

children of all races?

A. I believe it finaly.

Q. Of course, throughout this district, we have a number of schools. 

Vill you give to the Court roughly the number of schools and 

the total number of dollars invested in our school system?

A. There are 51 school buildings; there are 56 which are attended 

by white pupils and 16 of which are attended by Ifegro pupils. 

There are approximately 35*000 pupils. The value of the school 

plant vill well exceed thirty million dollars, I believe. I*m

not too fresh on these figures, but that is an approximate 

valuation.

Q. You have heard Mr. Barker, of coqrse, testify to these charts 

which show the amount which show that the average 

achievement of white students is substantially above the 

national norm on all the tests taken.



Q. You are familiar with that?

A. Yea, sir.

Q, You*re proud of that, are you?
A. I am. I ’m very proud of this school system. If I didn’t 

appear to be too inmodest, I night say I visited at schools 

all over this nation, I know a number of school men intimately, 

anfl as objectively as I can be, knowing that I have a personal 

identity with it, and discounting my value of that extent,

I know of no school district in this nation 

that enjoys the good patronage, the excellent cooperation of 

people in trying to provide for their young people, their 

children, a good program of public education. I have no 

apology to make for any part of It.

Q, Mr. Walker, are you familiar with the study that is made 

regularly as to people over 25, the average years of

schooling that they have had?
'

A. Yas, I am.
Q. I hand you a booklet and ask if you recognise this?

A. ©lis is the U. S. Census of Population, I960, the United 

States summary containing general social and economic 

characteristics of the people.

Q. How, Mr. Walker, have you taken from that publication some 

information concerning the years of schooling that has been 

completed by adults 25 years and older in some of the 

larger metropolitan areas of this country?

A. I have, and have had a chart prepared accordingly.



Q. X hand, you a document and ask If tills Is that chart? 

A. This is.

MR. CAHR&DA.: We’d like to put this Into evidence.
We offer this as an exhibit to his testimony.

MR, BELLi We will aoke the sane objection, Your Honor.

THE OODKPt Vhry well. I overrule the objection.

(Saras received In evidence and marked as Defendant’s Exhibit So, 22)

please, and explain the significance of this to the Court.

(Witness complies)

A* Bile Is a chart shoving the educational characteristics of 

selected large cities frc*a the I960 U. 3. Census of Population 

showing the median school years completed and the percent of 

persons 25 years old and over coexisting higi school or better. 

I selected these cities as representative of large Metro­

politan cities of this nation in the Midwest, East, and Far 

west. In every instance we have here a city which, 

compared to any city in Mississippi, is of great wealth 

per capita and otherwise. I would like to read these In 

ascending order —  that is, starting with St. Louis,

Missouri, where the persons 25 years old and over in the 

I960 census showed median school i©ars completed as S.8 

years, Baltimore, Maryland, 8,9 yearej Louisville, Kentucky, 

9.3 yearsj Cleveland, Ohio, 9.6) Philadelphia, Pennsylvania,

9.6 years) Detroit, Michigan, 10 years) Chicago, Illinois,

Q. If you will, Mr, Walker, step down over this way, if you will,



10. years! Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, 30. years] Naur York,
New York —  Ifew Y°rk City, 10.lj Washington, D. C., U.7?

Los Angeles, (^ll/Ornla, 12.1.
Those represents grades or years of schooling completed.

It Is Interesting t© note that of the total population 25 years 

old or over,In the city of St. Louis, Missouri, 26.5 percent 

of the population has completed high school or better. 

BaltiRwre, 26.2 percent] Louisville, 32.lj Cleveland, 30.1 

percents Philadelphia, 30.7 percents Detroit, Michigan, 3**% 

Chicago, Illinois, 35• 2 percent; Pittsburgh, 35-^1 Hew York 

City, 37.4; Washington, D. C., 1*7-8; and Los Angeles, Calif­

ornia, 53-4.
q , while those could be shown on another chart, so the picture

will be complete will you tell the Court, if you know, the 

average grade that has been completed by the adults of the 

Ja Jackson district 25 years and over?

A. 12.1 years.
Q. m  other words, in this district, the average grade completed

by an adult 25 years old is 12.1 grades? Is that correct?

A. That's right. And that is an equivalent to the hi^aest on 

this chart, of Los Angeles, California.

Q, That compares all the way from 8.8 of St. Louis, Missouri, 

to —  In other words, the adults in this district have 

completed more formal education on the average than all 

these metropolitan areas?

A. Excepting Los Angeles.



Q. Except Los Angeles, and it is the same?
A. The same. Equivalent.
Q. In other words, percentagewise — . Do you know the

percentage in this district that has- a hl*gi school degree or 
better? q

A. I have it on the other chart. I don't recall. —  5^ percent.
Q. That's compared with ---
A. That exceeds every one on this other chart, selected large 

cities.
Q. This ranges all the way from 26.3 in St. Louis, Missouri?
A. That's right.
Q. I hand you another chart and ask if you recognize this.
A. I had this prepared also.
Q. Is that a group of capital cities somewhat similar in size 

to Jackson, containing the same information?
A. Not similar size, but representative of capital cities in 

the Midwest, East, and South.
MR. CANNADAi We'd like to put this in evidence.
THE COURT: let It be marked and received in evidence.

(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 23) 

THE COURT: And we'll take a ten minute recess.
(Whereupon court was recessed for ten minutes)



After Recess
(Mr. Cannada continues:)

Q. Mr. Walker, with reference to the schedule that has been marked 
as Exhibit 55 to the testimony of the defendants, would you 
read that to the Court, if you would, and give the 
explanation?

A. This is a chart showing the educational characteristics of 
selected capital cities, taken from the i960 TJ. S. Census 
Population Report, and as with the other chart, it shows 
persons 25 years old and over as to median school years 
completed and percent completing hlgi school or better.
And these are also in ascending order, starting with 
Nashville, Tennessee, which has an 8.9 median school years 
completed by persons 25 years of age and over. Atlanta,
Georgia, 10.5 years; Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, 10,8j 
Albany, New York, 10.9; Springfield, Illinois, 11.1;
Columbus, Ohio, 11.2; Columbia, South Carolina, 11.5; Lansing, 
Michigan, 11.9; Montgomery, Alabama, 11.9; Jackson,
Mississippi, 12.1.

Hie percent completing high school or better for these 
same capital cities are as follows: Nashville, Tennessee,
29*5; Atlanta, Georgia, 40,5; Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, 40.8; 
Albany, New York, 42.4; Springfield, Illinois, 44.3; 11 

Columbus, Ohio, 44.2; Columbia, South Carolina, 46.1; Lansing, 
Michigan, 49.4; Montgomery, Alabama, 49*1, Jackson, Mississippi, 
54.0.



200

Q,. Now, Mr. Walker, do these percentages, with reference to 

this exhibit end the preceding exhibit, include all 

adults 25 years old and over, regardless of race?
A. Uiey do.

Q. A H  right. In other words, It includes members of both the 

white and —

—  White and non-white.

Now, do you have information as to the percentage of whites 

and non-whites for thes e respective cities?

From the 1962 county and city data book published by the Bureau 

of Census, i960 population, I have taken the percent of the 

population for each of these large cities and each of the 

capital cities as to the percent of non-white in each of these.

For example, in St. Louis, Missouri, 28.8 percent of its 

population is non-white; Baltimore, Maryland, 55 percent; 

Louisville, Kentucky, 18 percent; Cleveland, Ohio, 28,9 

percent; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 26.7 percent; Detroit, 

Michigan, 29.2 percent; Chicago, Illinois, 25*6 percent; 

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, 16.7 percent; New York City, 14.7 

percent; Washington, D. C.-, 54.8 percent; Los Angeles, 

California, 16.8 percent.

For the capital cities, Nashville, Tennessee, 37*9 percent 

population non-white; Atlanta, Georgia, 58.5; Harrisburg, 

Pennsylvania, 19.1; Albany, New York, 8.5 percent; Springfield, 

Illinois, 6.8 percent; Columbus, Ohio, 16.6 percent; Columbia, 

South Carolina, 50.4 percent; Lans^Jng, Michigan, 6.5 percent;



20T
Montgomery, Alabama, 35*3 percent! and Jackson, Mississippi,
has 35.7 percent.

Q. So that with only rare exceptions, the notable one being 

Washington, D. C., Jackson has a larger proportion of 
Negroes percentagewise than all of these cities we have 

mentioned?

A. Atlanta, Georgia, I believe, and Nashville, Tennessee, have 

slightly larger percentages.

Q. And all of these capital cities you have mentioned here ihave

population in excess of 50,000, do they not?
Uiey do, yes, sir.

Now, Mr. Walker, in your forty years of experience, starting 
back with your survey in 1926 and *27 and up to today,

I believe you have stated that the pattern of the difference 

between your achievement and educational levels of the two 

races has remained, somewhat in the same pattern?

A. That Is right.

Q. During that period of time, have you noticed any improvement 

in tiae cultural level of the Negro race?

A. I have been, as an educator, I have been responsible for an 

education program involving white and Negroes since 1937* 

That is 27 years. And in that 27 year period, I have seen 

considerable improvement in the cultural level of our Negro

population in this district.

Q. Even though that be a fact, the pattern as to the distinction



between the education and achievement of the two races remains 
substantially the same proportion?

A. Approximately the same as it has been, to my knowledge, for 
27 or 50 years.

Q. Mr. Walker, in your judgment, will you tell the Court whether 
there is anything positive or affirmative, as an educator 
looking toward the education of these people of this 
district, in making assignments or educating these children 
in separate schools by race?

A. First, let me say that as I would see it,from the evidence 
in the two charts we have Just seen, we have a record of a 
school district where the median years of school completed 
by adult population is equal to or exceeds school districts 
all over the country, whether they ere segregated or desegregated. 
That says to me that where you have separate schools for the 
races that you have the best achievement record of your total 
population, certainly better than in any of the cities that 
we have identified here.

Reviewing ray experience and looking at the facts as I know 
them, —  and that has to do with the educability of white 
and Negro youths that attend public schools —  knowing the 
characteristics, the educational characteristios and the 
social characteristics of the whit® and Negroes who attend 
schools in this district, I emcompelled as a professional 
educator to the conclusion that separate schools for the



races in this district, for the reasons cited, is for the 
best interest of all children, and we would be in a position 
of injuring educationally, denying them \7hat is really their 
best educational opportunity, white and Negro, if we did 
not keep in mind that the pact experience is clear, and that 
we have no basis upon which to make another judgment.

MR. CANNADA: We have no further questions.
THE COURT: Any questions by any of the other defendants?
By the intervenors?

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. LEONARD:
Q. Mr. Walker, regarding that figure for Washington, D. C.,

which, as I recall, you stated was quite high and that they had 
quite a high Negro population percentage. Is that a correct 
statement?

A. The percent of non-white population in Washington, D. C., 
in the i960 census was 3^*8.

Q. And of the persons over 25 who had a hi$i school education or 
better, it was what?

A. 11.7 years of completed schooling.
Q. In other words, Washington, D. C. was close to your own figure, 

wasn't it? It was in the higher bracket?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. And the people 25 years or older in Washington in i960 were



270

A.

Q.

a product of which? ®ie previously separate schools or the 

never intermixed schools?

These are all adults who at seven years earlier would have 

been 18 years of age, which is about the typical time to 

graduate from high school.

And that would have been before—

—  That would have been in 1955*

Before the Brown decision?

Yes, I believe that’s correct. Yes, sir.

There was testimony yesterday from Congressman Williams that 

you will recall that until 195^ the schools in Washington 

were segregated.

I remember.

With respect to the educating power of your schools and your 

schools as separate schools, I want to read you material which 

purports to costae from a book by professor Eli Ginsberg 

at Columbia called THE NEGRO POTENTIAL, and ask whether this 

agrees with your experience in the Jackson Schools:

"This means that only three out of every hundred graduates 

from segregated Negro hi$i schools in the South are qualified 

for a good interracial college."

Is three percent essentially that which you have in 

Jackson?

A. I don’t know.

Q. Next, he says: "Less than one out of every hundred Negro
students in the North and West was fully qualified for college



271

admission."
A. I don’t know that either.
Q. Has your experience been that your system turns out more 

Negroes proportionately who are qualified for college than 
the Northern schools do?

A. I believe they do, yeo, sir, both white and Negro.
Q. Do you know who Jack Greenberg is? Have you heard his name? 
A. I believe he Is an attorney for tie NAACP.
Q,. He wrote a took called RACE RELATIONS IN AMERICAN LAW, and I

would like to quote you some figures from his book and ask 
whether this concurs with your experience.

He states that 2k to 4.4 percent of the Negro high school 
graduates in Southern separate schools attains national 
college admission standards, whereas in a survey of fifty 
leading Northern integrated high schools having a thirty 
percent Negro enrollment, less than two-tenths of one percent 
of the Negro graduates could meet these scholarship standards."

A, I don’t know the record of the northern schools.
Q,. Well, does the southern statement agree with essentially the 

type of education you are giving in Jackson?
A. May I see the statement, rattier than listen to it? I’m more 

visual-minded than audio-oriented.
Q. Certainly. (Handa to witness)
A. I'm not familiar with the northern record. I would be lncliiBd 

to the view that we have a considerable number of graduates of



272

high schools attended by Negroes that vould be admitted to

Q.

A.

Q.

universities and colleges anywhere in the nation.

Do you knov of any who have gone to northern colleges? Vould 

this come to your attention?

I have a general recollection, but I could not name 

individuals nor numbers.

I vould lilce to read to you at this time, Mr. Walker, rather 

than show you, some figures concerning a city, and I want to 

ask you whether you think they are as good or worse than the 

results you are obtaining with Negro education in this city: —

MR. BELL: Your Honor, I think we would like to enter another 

objection. This reading or entering into the record material 

that hasn’t been introduced is both improper and the 

relevancy is 30 far removed from this case that, notwithstanding 

the earlier ruling, I think it appropriate that we object.

This is getting far afield.

MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I do not offer this material for 

the truth of the statement. I offer it for the basis of a 

hypothetical question to Mr. Walker, as an expert. He has 

been qualified as an expert and has information on the Jackson 

schools, so I do not offer this to prove what the truth is as 

to these various other statements. It is merely whether it 

agrees with his experience.

THE CCOHT: Very well, I will overrule the objection and

let you get it into the record, but I don’t think it has any



27?
probative force as I see it at this time* You may ask the 

question, and I will let him answer.

Q. In the 3rd grade Metropolitan achievement scores: white

scores, 3.7 years; Negro scores, 2.5 years, a lag of 1.2 years 

in the 3rd grade reading.

In the 6th grade reading: for white grade average, 6.9; 

for Negro average, 4.7, a difference of 2.2 years in reading

at the 6th grade level.

At the 8th grade level, in reading: 8.4 is the white 

average; 6.0 is the Negro average, a difference of 2.4 

years in reading at the 8th grade level.

Now, my question to you, Mr. Walker, are these essentially 
the standards —  have you reached the same standards, or are 
you more advanced in Negro education than the figures I have 
just given you?
Those are in terms of grades?
©lose are in terms of grade equivalents.
I believe our records here, in terns of stanine, I would say 

the pattern is somewhat similar, although the disparity may 

be slightly varying.

Essentially the same pattern that you have here?

That is right.
That Is all.

THE COURT: Cross examine.



CROSS EXAMINATION

B3T MR. BELL:
Q,. Without reviewing all your testimony you have given over the 

last two hours, am I correct in concluding that,based on all 

your professional opinion and your studies and your experience 

to the effect that the separate school system presently operated 

here in Jackson is the best for all the people, that you have 

made and plan to make no compliance with the Court's order 

of March 4th until further orders of the Court are entered?

MR. CANNADA: We object to that. That has no bearing in

this lawsuit.
MR. BELL: Could I be heard? I was Abiding by the Court's

ruling of yesterday, and I don't mean to ask the same thing, but 

I think, Your Honor, in view of the nature of the testimony 

that we have received here this afternoon starting back with 

the origination of segregation of the schools of Jackson back 

in the 19th century and carrying through here with a complete 

detailed picture of why the super! ntendent feels that 

segregation is the best, why after the 1954 decision they 

revamped their assignment procedures so as to give him the 

authority of making such assignments according to these 

racial characteristics —  In all this testimony he has given 

us of his view as to why we need to continue a segregated 

basis. I think the question I asked is appropriate and 

can be distinguished from the question you sustained objection 

on yesterday.



275
THE COURT: The question I sustained objection to yesterday

called for something to the effect of what they had done 

since —
MR. BEIL: —  That's right, what had they done since

March 4th. Now, based on their testimony today, I am asking 
whether they are planning to do anything unless further ordered

by the Court.
THE COURT: Well, I will sustain the objection to that.

That will be passed upon later when they submit the plan.
I don't think it is competent here now because it would stir 
up, very probably, and handicap the preparations of the plan 
that I have ordered to be filed by the 15th of July, or 
whenever it wasj so I sustain the objection to that.

MR. BEIL: All rigit, Your Honor. We have no further

questions.
THE COURT: You may step aside. 

(Witness excused)

MR. CANNADA.: The defendants rest.

MR. HELL: I think at this moment,if the defendants
have rested and before the intervenors proceed,that it 
migit be helpful to attorneys for plaintiff if we could gather 
together for a little conference so as to get some idea of 
har this case is going to proceed, and a few other questions.

Would that be possible?



THE COURT: Well, my thought was to have the intervenora
put on what testimony they have in the Jackson case, with 
your right of rebuttal. Then the Jackson case would be 
concluded. Then we would take up the Leake County case.

MR. BELL: I was wondering, firBt, based on your start
this afternoon except for the one witness this morning, whether 
the intervenors could give us an idea of how many witnesses 
they do have and how much time, so that we could make our 
plans.

THE COURT: Yes. Yes. I would like to hear their
best estimate on that.

MR. LEOHRRD: We have one witness whom we are going to
attempt to clear so that he can get out of there this 
afternoon, as he has classes tomorrow. That is 
Dr. Garrett, who will be the next witness. Tomorrow morning 
we expect to use Dr. McGurk, probably for an hour and a half, 
to be followed by Dr. Van Den Haag of New York University, 
for I would say two and a half or three hours. We will have 
either Dr. George, who has been ill recently, if he can come, 
or, if not, we will ask to read his prior testimony. Dr. Hoy 
of the University of South Carolina —  This will probably be 
not over a half an hour. We will follow that with Dr. Kuttner, 
about an hour and a half; and possibly Dr. Whitaker following 
that for about an hour.

MR. BELL: I was just trying to figure out whether



277

that meant —

MR. LEONARD: —  Midday Friday, I would say.
MR. BELL: We would say at this time we don't plan to 

either offer any rebuttal to this type of testimony or any 
cross examination, for the reasons that we have already indi­
cated, and I was wondering about making our plans for 
completing the case.

And as a part of that, I am wondering, with the record 
growing by leaps and bounds, whether or not we could get some 
information from the court reporter as to his ability to get 
to work on this any time soon. If it seems that he is already 
piled up with other work, the plaintiffs would be prepared to 
bring in their own court reporter so as to assure that we 
would be able to have a record for the Court and for ourselves 
as early as possible. Ordinarily it wouldn't be a problem, 
but I imagine this testimony is going to fill quite a few 
volumes.

(Off the record discussion)

DR. HENRY' E. GARRETT, called as a witness and having been duly 
sworn, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION 
BY MR. LEONARD, for Interveners:
Q. Dr. uarrett, would you state your full name and your employment? 
A. Henry E, Garrett. Well, let's see. You want — ?
Q. What is your present employment?



A. Visiting professor of education sod psychology at the 

Ifaiveraity of Virginia.

Q. What Is your previous academic employment?

A. Professor of psychology at Columbia University for thirty 

years.
Q, what was your position in the psychology department of 

Columbia?

A. 1 was chairman for sixteen years.

Q. What is your academic background in teams of degrees?

A. Well, I have an AB and an KA, a PHD, and a DSC.

Q. What vas the first doctorate in, Dr. Garrett?

A* Psychology.
MR. LEONARD: I would like to hand to the Court an

outline of Dr. Garrett*s qualifications.

Q. Are you a member of any professional associations?

A. Yes. Shall I list them?

Q. Just fcive us some, and any offices you have held in them.

A, American Psychofcgtoal Association, past president; Eastern 

Psycho tgi cal Association, past president; Psychometric 

Society, patt president; Mew York State association of 

Psychology, past president; American Association for 

Advancement of Science, vice-president.

Q. Have you published any aadeaic studies in your field?

A. Quite . a few. I m  author of eight books and fifty or so, I 

suppose, papers.

Q. Are any of them general texts used in the field?



A* Yes, I have a general text in psychology* and I have two 

books dealing with mental testing, Two were statistics} one 
was experimental,

I show you a bibllogrejptfc Dr, Garrett, and ask if the publica­

tions listed there are your publications?

A, These are a few of the ones that bear upon this particular 
topl*«

Q* I®. IEGKAKD* I offer these in widens®, the bibliography 
of Dr. Henry £* Garrett.

THE COURT: Let it be received,

(Haas received in evidence and marked as Intervenor*a Exhibit Bo. 5)
Q. Basically* what is your field of study?

A. Experimental psychology and what is called differential 

psychology, which means the psychology of differences among 
people,

<4. Are you familiar with the work that has been published in 
that field?

A, I think so,

Q, Does differential psychology involve itself only with

differences in race, or any differences between any group or 
type?

279

A, Differences due to race* sex, practice, variations within the 
individual. All sorts of things.

How do you determine these differences?

A* Will# mostly by measurement using psychometric measures or
tests



280

Q t What ape psychometric tests?

A. Psychometric test is a problem of some sort or & series of 

items that are Intended, to measure some fairly definite trait­

or ability.

Q, Is intelligence one of those abilities?

A. Yea. Intelligence, of course, is so broadly used that you have 

to limit your definition when you are dealing with schools and 

with ability to do school work, and the intelligence tests as 

used in schools are designed to measure the ability to deal with 

^pfeols, words, numbers, formulas, diagrams.

Q, Hasn’t there been recently an attack upon Intelligence tests 

in a number of places?

A. Well, there has been an attack on intelligence tests for the 

last 50 years. They case and go. Most of them don't under­

stand what the tests are supposed to do. Parents think 

if the child has a high academic potential that he should 

behave well, and mind his parents, and not get into troublej 

but the test, as I say to them sometimes, there are a 

good many people of hlgjh i intelligence who have been arrested 

for forgery and for various offenses, who are in prison, 

and that high academic or high potential for academic work 

does not necessarily mean that a person will be Intelligent 

in all, that he does, social behavior,

Q. Well, are you saying that the so-called i rtelligenc© 

tests simply measure potential for study?

A. Ho. I say the intelligence tests as used in the schools



281
mcaaure the potential for work In schools and for related 

•work in professions and business —  lawyers, physicians, 

engineers, and so on, If they did not possess this same 

sort of intelligence would not be able to function*

Q. In other words, this is essentially an ability, rather than 

something called general Intelligence?

A. Veil, "general"is the wrong word* I don't know of any better 

word than "abstract intelligence•" I'd call it "symbolic 

intelligence,1 but that doesn't carry exactly what you mean*
Q,. How, of the tests that measure this particular capability of 

study, have any been made in the field of races?

A* Oh, yes, great numbers.

Q,. na» thifl been done over ary period of time?

A* Over the last 90 years.

Q.* Are you familiar with some of the work In the field?

A* I think 8 0*
Q. Do you know of any compilations which have been made bringing 

thia material together?

A« Veil, the work that Dr. Shuey published in 1958 brought up 

to that date «ii the work that had been done in the preceding 

40 or 90 years* 240 studies*

Q. And ere you familiar with the work of Dr. Shuey?

A* Very familiar*

Q* And what were her conclusions, based upon all of those tests?

A* Veil, the general drift showed a considerable difference on 

all of the psychometric measurements» 'These were not all



282

Q.

measure® of abstract ability. 'There were & number of 

performance nioasureraents too, but the Negro generally tested 

lower than the white, not only in childhood but in adulthood., 

and she measured soldiers, delinquents, criminals, and all 

these groups tested generally lower, the Negroes, than the 

whites.

Nov, was this true in the North as well as in the South?

Yea.
Has It been true to the same degree as far as you know 

abroad as well as in this country?

•Chere haven*t been so very many quantities of studies abroad, 

but those that I know about show this seme difference.

Were you present this mooing during the testimony of Br*

Osborne?

Yes.
Do you recall the differences to which Dr. Osborne testified 1 n 

the various cities?

Yes, ■ ■ .

Is that essentially in conformity with your knowledge of the 

past tests which have been made and reported on by J2r. Sbuey 

and others?

I think so*
Are you familiar with the Army alpha and beta test?

A. Yes.

Q* Would you tell us something about those?

A. Well, the Ansy alpha was devised in 1917 and given to about



two million soldiers. Hie beta was a non-language test given 

to about $00,000 who couldn't read or write, or do it very- 

well. And the test was used as a means mainly of classifi­

cation of men into various groups and selection for special 

sorts of services and training programs.

How large a sample did they have?

Two million.

What were the results of those tests in terms of racial 

difference?

Well, I don't think really the test was ever designed to measure 

racial difference. It was used for that purpose, and I believe 

it was a mistake, but it was so used. Hie Negroes did less 

well than the white soldiers on the test. There was a gap 

not only in the Army alpha, which was a verbal test to 

measure abstract ability at a  fairly low level; but also 

on the beta test, which was a performance test involving 

no language, the gap was as large on one as it was on the 

other.

Now, is this essentially what is known as and referred to 

as cultural and non-cultural, or verbal and non-verbal?

Well, verbal and non-verbal is a little different than the 

other, I think. A  non-verbal test would be one that does not 

involve words. Performances of some sort. For instance, 

typical would be putting blocks irfco holes, or building 

somewhat like a jigsaw puzzle, putting the pieces together,

or counting with blocks, and things which involved very little,



284

if any, language, other than the Instructions.

Q. Ih that connection, Dr. Garrett, has It ever been asserted 

that these results of these tests in World War I did not
'Vi., i  . 1 - i  ’ *  ’4 Jt \ * * J  J!1 f  » v » C

shew the differences which other tests have?

A* Mall, that van done ~ ~  I ’m afraid that got into literature 

and was echoed over and over again. It was a ginalok, really, 

She four northern states in which the Negroes tested higher 

were compared with four southern states in which the whites 

®  tested lowest; in other words, It took the upper end of one

curve and the lower end of another curve and ccaqpared the two, 

and it was largely a reflection of the differences in 

education level of the two parts of the country, I think.

$he correlation of this Army alpha test with education was .70, 

which is quit© higi, meaning that the better educated Negroes 

did somewhat better —  they didn’t do much, a point or so —  

Q  but better than the 3m s  well educated whites in Arkansas,

Mississippi, Georgia, and Alabama.

Q. Who raised that question?

A. Well, It was brought up by equal!tartans, cultural anthro­

pologists, and was popularised by Kline berg and has appeared 

in the World War n ,  in a little pamphlet called RACES 

QJP MANKIND by two authors, Benedict and Welt fish,
V* . b ' (  • ■ ‘ i f -  y  M g  f j  ̂ .* 3

a pamphlet which incited a lot of criticism and was finally 

withdrawn,



285
q . Have you seen the monograph by Dr. Kennedy and other® 

on the testing of Negro elementary school children in the

Southeast?

A. Yes, I have.
Q,. . And did lyou hear Dr. Osborne testify about that this morning?

—\
A. I did.
Q. And are the results in that monograph essentially the same 

as the results you are referring to in Shuey’s study and 

others?
A. Very close, in spite of the fact that the authors did their

very level best to explain them away.

Q,. Do you recall that in that connection we displayed to Dr. 

Osborne a graph shewing a measure of the Negro student 

figures against a normal curve?

A.
Q.

A.

Yes.
And at that time we discussed the question of the shape of the 

Negro curve. Is there any comment you could make on that? 

Well, the curve Is not a truly normal curve. What is called 

the standard deviation or the spread of the curve is four 

points less than it was in the white curve, and that accounts 

for that bunching together and peakedness In the curve. It*s 

a fancy-named thing called ’’leptokurtio. When a curve Is 

peaked up, when there’s too little variability in It.—

And here, it seems to me it showed a lack of range or spread 

in the Negro group. Ciat’s been found before though.

In other words, you are saying that they tend to pack up more



286

than usual?

A. Pack up around the typical measure, yes.

Q. Do you recall the testimony this morning and in the Kennedy 

report to which we referred, about the different results on 

different subject matters, scholastic matters?

A. Yes.

Q. Is this also typical of the general testing in this field?

A. Yes.

Q» And do you recall the differences which occurred in terms of 

rate of learning, a change of rate of learning over the 

period of the school years?

A. Against the ages?

Q. Against ages.

A. Yes, indeed.

Q. And is that typical of the general results in the field?

A. That is typical*

Q. And en each of these three differences, the absolute difference 

which is measured in something like the Army alpha, the rate 

difference which we just discussed and the subject difference, 
are these pert of a pattern, so that if you match for one you 

have matched for the others? Or do they independently vary?

A. I think it is a pattern. It shows much the same trend 

throughout.

Q* Do you recall Dr. Osborne’s testimony about the matched 

group?

A. Yes.



287

Q,. And that having matched for actual mental ability, there vas a 

rate change thereafter?

A. Right.

Q. Zs that normal?
Well, that is perfectly possible, because the matching which 

he did was in terms of a rather general index, and there*s 

a good deal of variability within any person’s abilities or 

aptitudes. As a matter of fact, within the individual, his 

aptitudes will vary about 75 percent as much as any aptitude 

will vary in the population) so there is a lot of variability 

there.

How, what Dr. Osborne’s results showed was that despite 

these matched groups, there was a fall-off in the Negro 

performance with age, which is entirely possible. For example, 

one person might get a good score on the mental teat because 

he does well in numbers, and another one because he does well 

with words. Well, if he does better on one than on the other, 

that will show up when you measure that specific aptitude.

Also, there was a fall with mental age as they went on.

It’s no doubt true that those groups lost altitude.

Q. Do I understand then that this pattern you refer to is one 

which can’t be measured by any single unit?

A, I don’t think so, no.

Q. In other words, merely matching children on the basis of an 

IQ test or something like that doesn’t mean you have two 

children who will respond the same?



288

A, No. It does not at all. Thej may do roughly the same sort

of work, but not the same work, by any means.

Q. What Is the cause of these differences, as far as you know?

A. Well, of course, two primary causes are the heredity inherent 

in the child and the environmental pressures —  the school, 

the coBimmity, and the church, the movies, the television, and 

all the rest of the influences that bear upon him.

Q.. Is there any way of determining how much each of these two factors

plays?

A. You can only do it statistically so as to draw a general 

conclusion which might not be strictly true in a given case.

A  favorite way has been to use twins. Identical tvias are not 

only b o m  at the same time, but they are also of the s l  e 

sex and they have Identical heredity, coming from the double 

fertilisation of one ovary. Fraternal twins are brothers and 

sisters who are born together, but they are not, except for 

the fa ct that they are the same age, they are as different 

as any children within a family can be. And what's done 

here, as the geneticists have worked this out, you get a rela­

tionship among these fraternal twins and among the identical 

twins, and then you put it into what's called a heredlbility 

index to find out how much of a difference is among your 

fraternal, because theoretically all of the likeness in the 

identicals la hereditary} they have exactly the same heredity.

You find how much of the difference —  or the likeness} you can 

take It either way —  of the fraternal is due to inheritance,



269

and how ranch to environment •
d. DO they ever study twins, Identical twins, who ape raised 

under different environments*
A* Y©b . that’s been done too, identical twins raised within the 

same home, sod raised apart*

Q. What is the purpose of such a study*

A. To see how mich the environment can do.
ft. You a w  saying that If thay a w  wised in the same eiwiroment 

they will be close together, and If they are raised In 

different environments they —
A, Theoretically, you would expect children raised in the same 

home, if they’re identical twins, to be more nearly iglk» 
than identical twins who are reared in different parts of 

the country or in different families.

Q,. Are they*
A. Yes. Those who are reared together vary on the average of 

about five points, one ftfom the other. Unrelated children 

will vary fifteen points. Children, twins, who are reared 

apart in different circumstances will differ about eight 

points. And so environment, apparently, is able to raise the

five to eight) that’s all it can do.
q . Are there any other studies which are made to determine this 

type of causation? Can you equate environmental factors la

children and then study it?
A* You really can’t, and it’s been done with rats because you

can control rats, and you can get a whole series of generations,



and in one of the best studies I know of, that in which 

seven generations of rats were bred, bright rats and 

dull rats. They separated them into two species, actually 

by breeding the bright rats inter se, among themselves, and 

the dull ones; and the result was that they had two separate 

species.

A. Up to the fifth generation. After the fifth generation there 

was no further separation. But they had what really amounted, 

to these experimenters, to two species of rats, bright rats and 

dull rats. And it was all due to heredity. Environment was 

exactly the same.

Q. In other words, the mentality of the rats proved to be heritable?

A. Heritable and extremely effective, in separating.

MR. BELL: May I suggest we have a continuing objection,

Your Honor. I'm having a little difficulty connecting the 

rats and the school cases we are trying. Could we ask that 

counsel explain?

MR. LEONARD: I'd be very happy to explain.

Your Honor, we're concerned with the fact that there is 

no serious dispute whatever —  in fact, there isn't any 

factual as well as legal dispute from plaintiffs —  that 

enormous differences in educability exist between the white and 

Negro students in the Jackson schools; in fact, between white and 

Negro students in any schools. Now, if this is the fault of



the schools, If a change in the school environment, the 

teachers or something else, can cure or close this gap, 

then since we are here equally before this Court they are 

entitled to ask for the kind of relief that will close it 

because no one denies that these children have equal rights 

to the best possible education for themselves. Therefore,

’What we are trying to show now is that these differences do 

not result from the Bchool, they d© not result from the 

social pattern which exists in the State of Mississippi or 

any other state* but fundamentally these differences we are 

discussing, the ones which we have shown on these charts, are 

differences which are Inate in the individual and the the amount 

of change which can be made by changing either the curricula 

of the school or the neighborhood is so minute that separate 

education is the only education which is going to take car© of 

the differences, because you can't change them back. In other 

words, I am now trying to show that these differences are 

heritable) they are not caused by the schools or by the homes.

THE COURT j I am going to overrule the objection and let the 

testimony go in. I think the objection goes to the weight more 

than it does to admiadbility. If it has no weight, has no 

relevancy, certainly it will be disregarded) but at this stage 

) >. proceedings* I can't tell what weight or what competency

it is entitled to. So I overrule the objection and will let the 
testimony go in.

291



292
(Mr. Leonard continues*^

Q« Dr*. Garrett, is there a teat known as the S.P.8.S.I.?
A. Shat Is a society*

It ia what?

A. It is a society, not a test,

Q* What is the society?

A* The Society for Psychological Study of Social Issues,

Q. I see. Do you know of any studies which it has made in an 

effort to equate social and environmental factors being 
involved in racial differences?

A, Well, the president of that society wrote a paper in which he 

said that it was well known from many studies that when the 

environment of Negro and white children was made more nearly 

identical that they drew closer and closer together.

I answer* j that by assembling the many studies,which 

were altogether six, in literature in which a really serious 

<*t tempt had been made to equate the environment, and I found 

that the drawing together wasn’t there, that they 6rew 

together in some instances & little bit more in random groups, 

but that the effect was negligible. I concluded the paper

by saying that instead of the evidence being overwhelming,
there wasn’t any. 

you
<4. I s W a h a t  purports to be a pamphlet, "The 3.P.S.3.I. and 

Racial Differences," by Henry E. Garrett, and ask If that Is

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