Evers v. Jackson Separate Municipal School District Transcript 1
Public Court Documents
May 18, 1964
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Evers v. Jackson Separate Municipal School District Transcript 1, 1964. 73d20f4e-b19a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/df5c8b3d-e3fa-465d-a071-7c18dcbd1ce7/evers-v-jackson-separate-municipal-school-district-transcript-1. Accessed July 11, 2025.
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ill rfiE UIOTED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR SHE SOOTHS® DISTRICT
CF MISSISSIPPI, JACKSON DIVISION
’ ' W
darreil jffisxam evers and hsebe u e evers,
alnars, fey MEDGAR V. EVERS and MRS. M&HLEE
B. EVERS, their parents and next friends, and
SHIRIESr D, BAILEX, VERHA A. BAILEY and
53CMAS J. BAXLE5T, minors, by SAMOEL BAXLEY,
taeir father and next frtrad,
«aa ' ” . ■
EAIOINE THOMAS and GAROEXH THOMAS, minors, by
HRS. SASHECm THOMAS, their mother and next friend,
• m i fc'ftfoy- lv. !vy'-:**
VIIUS H. LOGAN, minor, fey MRS, A. W, E. LOGAN,
his mother and next friend,
and ____ ■ .
H1F2K JEROME SINGLETON, minor, by MRS. EDNA
MARIS SIISHETOK, his mother and next friend, and ' ,,
ainor, by MRS. ELIZABETH WHITE, her mother and next friend,
. ■ , ■A/' . Plaintiffs,Versus
JACKSON MD3SICIPAL SEPARATE SCHOOL DISTRICT;,
IQPJECT P, WALKER, Superintendent of Jackson
City Schools) LESTER A1VIS, Chalnaan;
C. H, K2MG, Vice-Chairman) LAMAR NOBLE,
Secretary) W, G* MIZE and J. V. UNDERWOOD, Members,
.Defendants,
U ' W PRIMOS, CLAUDIA PRIM03 and GALE PRBIQS,
minors, by ALECK PRIMQ0, their father next
mend, and ALECK HOMOS, individually, and
H i p E &AX53E PIERCE PRIMQS, individually,
D02LE GOODMAN and GAYLE GOODMAN, minors, by
JAMES GOCdSAN, their father and next friend,
and JAMES GOOIMAN, individually,
and
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Civil Action
No< J?79
-■ :̂g"' Jiff* ’
1 *
ALEX LITTLE, JR., minor, by WILTON LITTLE,
his father and next M e n d , and WU1TON LITTLE,
individually, and MRS. WILTON LITTLE, individually,
and
JOHN HAROLD SPEARS, minor, by MRS. JOY SPEARS, his
mother and next friend, and MRS, JOT SPEARS,
individually,
WILLIAM CHRISTOPHER SEXES, minor, by MRS. W. C.
SEXES, his mother and next M e n d , and MRS.
W. C. KEYES, individually,
and
JAR CAROL HELLS and PARKER HELLS, minora, by
CHARLES HILTS, their father and next friend and
CHARLES KILLS, individually, and MRS. CHARLES HILLS,
individually,
and
LDfDA HERRSN ERRINGTON and HOWARD ERRINGTON, minors,
by MRS. JAMES ERRINGTON, their mother and next
friend and MRS. JAMBS ERRIROTON,individually,
and
TOM GATES, V. T. OATES, JR., and BEVERLY GATES,
minors, by W. T. GATES, their father and next friend
and W. T. OATES, individually,
and
DANNY GATES, minor, by W. J. OATES, his father and next
friend, and V. J. OATES, individually, and MRS. W. J,
GATES, individually
and
JCHHNY WALKER, CATHY WALKER and JIM WALKER, minors,
by HIRAM WALKER, their father and next friend, and
HIRAM WALKER, individually, and MRS. HIRAM WALKER,
individually,
and
HOWARD COON and SUSAN COON, minors, by EDWARD COON,
their father and next friend, and EXWAKD COON,
individually, and MRS. EDWARD COON, Individually,
and
LYNN HUTCHENS and A1YCE HUTCHENS, minora, by MRS.
MARJORIE HUTCHENS, mother and next friend, and
MRS. MARJORIE HUTCHENS, individually,
and
SAMMY GARRETT and BETTY GARRETT, minors, by
HOWARD GARRETT, their father and next friend,
AND HOWARD GARRETT, individually, and MRS. HOWARD
GARRETT, individually,
and
LENDA. PAYNE, minor, by HOYT PAYNE, her father
and next friend, and HOYT PAYNE, individually,
and MRS. HOYT PAYNE, individually,
and
MARGARET ANN WHITT and *0TH JIXELLE WHITT,
minors, by J. A. WHITT, their father and next
friend, and J, A . WHITT, individually, and
MRS. J. A. WHITT, individually,
And
TOMMY CASE and PRANK CASE, minors, by PRANK CASE,
their father and next friend, and FRANK CASE,
Individually, and MRS. PRANK CASE, individually,
and
JERRY LEA REYNOLDS, minor, by SEAB REYNOLDS,
the father and next friend, and SEAB REYNOLDS,
individually, and MRS. SEAB REYNOLDS, individually,
Interveners.
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APPEARANCES!
Honorable Derrick A. Bell, Jr., Attorney,
10 Columbus Circle, New York, 19, New York;
Honorable Jack Young, Attorney, 115i N. Ffcriah
Street, Jackson, Mississippi;
For Plaintiffs.
Honorable Joe T. Patterson, Attorney General
for State of Misaissippi, Jackson,
Mississippi;
Honorable Dugas Shands, Assistant Attorney General,
Jackson, Mississippi;
Honorable Thomas H. Watkins, BOO Plaza Building,
Jackson, Mississippi;
Honorable Robert C. Cannada, 700 Petroleum Building,
Jackson, Mississippi;
For Defendants.
Honorable Dan H. Shell, 340 First National Bank
Building, Jackson, Mississippi;
Honorable R. Carter Pittman, P. 0. Box 891,
Dalton, Georgia;
Honorable George Stephen Leonard, 1750 K Street NW,
Washington, D. C.;
For Intervenors.
INDEX TO CIVIL ACTION NO. 3379 JACKSON DIVISIOW
WITNESSES Direct Cross
Examination Examination
FOR PLAINTIFF:
Samuel Bailey
Myrlie B. Evers
Edna Marie Singleton
Elizabeth White
Kathryn Thomas
Kirby P. Walker
aaitnTr
Joseph E. Barker
John Bell Williams
James Gooden
Win. S. Milborne
Kirby P. Walker
7 (Deft.) 15
(intervr. )17
22 (Intervr. )24
28 (Deft) 32
34 (Deft) 36
38 (Deft) 41
44 (Deft) 87
(Deft) 90
(Intervr)123
129
(Deft) 148
(intervr)159
(Deft) 170
162
(Intorvr)178
(Deft) 230
(Intervr) 269 274
Redirect
Examination
42
89
INTEHVENGR:
R. T. Osborne
Wm. S. Milborne (Recalled)
Henry E. Garrett
F. C. J. McGurk
Ernest Van Den Haag
Robert E. Kuttner
Halford S. Whitaker
185
224
277
304
334
417
492
EXHIBITS
Plaintiffs No. 1 Interrogatories 45
Plaintiff’s No. 2 Answer to Interrogatories 45
Plaintiff’s Ho. 3 Ltr., 8/15/64, M. W. Evers 87
Plaintiff’s kNo. 4 Anver to Interrogatories
in Civil Action 3312 Jackson 531
Defendant’s No. 1 Chart 93
Defendant’s No. 2 Chart 95
Defendant’s No. 3 Chart 98
Defendant’s No. 4 Chart 101
Defendant’s No. 5 Chart 103
Defendant’s No. 6 Chart 104
Exhibits:
INDEX Continued
Civil Action No. 3379
Defendant * s No. 7 Chart 106
Defendant’s No. 8 Chart 108
Defendant’s No. 9 Chart 110
Defendant1s No, 10 Chart 112
Defendant's No. 11 Chart 114
Defendant's No. 12 Chart 115
Defendant's No. 13 Chart 116
Defendant's No. 14 Chart 117
Defendant'a No, 15 Chart 118
Defendant's No. 16 Chart 119
Defendant's No. 17 Chart 120
Defends*'s No. 18 Chart 121
Defendant's No. 19 Chart 122
Defendant's No. 20 'Investigation of Public School
Conditions," Report of Sub-
comnittee, 84th Congress,
2nd Session 133
Intervenor's No. 1 Qualifications, Dr* R. T»
Osborne, with attaohements 186
Intervenor's No. 2 Monograph by R. T. Osborne 189
Intervenor's No. 3
Intervener1* No* 4
Defendant*s No, 21
Defendantss No, 22
Defendant*a No* 23 i
Intervenor’a No* 5
Intervener*s No, 6
Intervenor*s No, 7
Intervener*s No. 8
Intervenor'e No. 9
Intervenor’s No, 10
Intervener*a No. 11
and Achievement of Negro Elementary School
Children in Southeastern United
Stat®3"
Article from NEW YOHJI TIMES
201
218
Book by M* V. 0 sShea
Chart
Chart
234
262
264
Qualifications, Dr. H. E.
Oarrett
"The 3PSSI & Racial
Differences"
2 pps. from THE MANKIND
QUARTERLY, Apr11-June *64
Qualifications, Dr. P.C.J,
McGurk
5 pps. from U.S, NEWS & WORLD
REPORT
"Negro vs. White Intelligence -
An Answer" 332
Qualifications, Dr. Ernest Van
den Haag 336
279
293
294
305
330
INDEX continued
Civil Action lto. 3379
Intervener's No. 12
Intervener's No. 13
Intervener's No. 14
Intervener's No. 16
Intervener's No. 16
Intervener's No. 17
Xnfcervenor'a No. 18
Intervener*a No. 19
Intervener's Nb. 20
Intervener’s No. 21
Intervenor's No. 22
Intervener's Ho. 25
Intervenor's Mo* 24
Intervener's No. 25
Intervener's Ho. 26
Intervener's No. 27-a
Intervencap's No. 27 *b
Qualifications, Dr. R. £.
KUttner 4l8
"The Inheritance of Mental
Ability”
"Twins Brought up Apart"
"The Inheritance and Nature
of Extraveraion" 444
"The Herldltary Abilities
Study* Herldltary Components in
a Psychological Test Battery” 447
26-page article from
FEELDIANA 472
Pig. 1 and articles from
SCIENCE 477
"Amentia in the East African" 478
"Human Genetics" 479
r*Hhe ftwaf n of the Kenya
Native" 484
"Brain of the East African
Native” 489
Excerpts from Transcript of
Proceedings, Civil Action
NO. 2316, Southern District
of Georgia
Qualifications, Dr. H. S.
Whitaker
Sample EEG-. child
Sample EEG, adult
"Introduction to Study of
Electrophysiology of the
African Negro,” English
translation
Same as above, in French
495
494
497
497
504
504
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BE IT REMEMBERED that on the l8th day of May, 1964, there
came on for hearing at Jackson, Mlsaleslppl, in the Jackson
Division of this Court, before the Honorable S. C. Mize,
United States District Judge for the Southern District of
Mississippi, the above-styled and numbered cause,and
the following proceedings were had and entered of record,
to-witi
THE COORTx I don't believe these cases have been
consolidated, but as I recall it, it was agreed that all
the evldenoe that is to be taken in this case, so far
as Is relevant, relevant to the Issues In the other
two cases, would be considered as a part of the evi
dence In each one of those cases. Is that the under
standing?
MR, HELL: Yes, sir.
MR. WATKINS: Yea, sir.
MR. BELLt Yes, Your Honor. I had not understood
that the three cases had been consolidated, and were
going to be heard one after the other, and It would be
agreeable with us to have the Biloxi case follow the
Leake County case here In Jackson rather than in Biloxi.
THE COURT: And all the evidence, aa far as applicable ,
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then apply to all three cases*
HR. BELLt Yes, sir.
MR. WATKINS: Yes, sir, that la all right.
MR. SHELL: I would like to present two attorneys who are
not members of this bar and ask that they be permitted
to participate In this case: Mr. George Stephen Leonard
of the Washington Bar, and Mr. Carter Pittman from the
Dalton, Georgia, Bar.
THE COURTl Very well.
MR. SHELL* I hare filed a motion to add intervener
parties. It does not ask for any delay, merely names
additional lntervenors and requests that they be allowed
to come In and adopt the answer of the lntervenors already
filed In the lawsuit.
MR. BEIL: We would make the same objection to this
motion as we made originally to the motion to Intervene
for the same reasons we gave there.
THE COURT: I will overrule the motion and let the
— overrule the petition for additional lntervenors
and let it be filed.
MR. SHELL: I have the order, If Your Honor would
like It now.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. SHELL: It has been called to my attention that
you overruled the motion. I think you meant overrule
counsel's objection
THE COURTi Yes, for the seme reasons I gave In
overruling the original objections.
What a&ys the plaintiff In this case?
MR. BELL: We should like to make a very short and
brief opening statement.
THE COURT: Are you ready?
MR. BELL: We are ready.
THE C<XJRT: What says the defendant?
MR. WATKINS: Jackson School District and the Biloxi
School District are ready.
MR. SHELL: The interveners are ready.
MR. J. E. SMITH: Leake County School Board is ready.
THE COURT: What about BllOxi?
MR. WATOKS: Biloxi is ready.
MR. HELL: The plaintiffs feel that the coming to trial
today of these cases Is rather an historic day for Mississippi
and ve feel, also, that the trial date, May 18, Is also
significant because It vat Just ten years ago yesterday.
May 17, that the United States Supreme Court handed down Its
decision In Brown vs* Board of Education, which for the very
first time faoed the Issue: Doest segregation of children
In public schools solely on the basis of race, even though
the physical facilities and other tangible factors may be
equal, deprive the children of the minority group of equal
educational opportunities?
Paced vtth this qimetion, the Supreme Court handed
down the answer) "We believe it does. We conclude
that in the field of public education the doctrine of
'separate but equal'has no place. Separate educational
facilities are inherently unequal.v
I think the significance of today's date la not
simply historical. Since the desegregation decision in
1954 there has been a great deal of desegregated facili
ties other than public schools, all of such desegregation
coming about based upon the decision Brown versus Board of
Education. This has occurred in every state, desegregation
in public transportation, libraries, courthouses, recreational
facilities, hospitals and many others. In Mississippi, based
on the Brown decision, there has come about desegregation in
the transportation facilities, at the University of Mississippi
and in the library and recreational facilities here in Jackson.
All of this followed the repudiation of the earlier Pleasy
v. Ferguson doctrine that separate could be equal, and all
came about under the decision in Brown v. Board of Education.
When we come to the fact of schools, we see also that
there has been sene desegregation in every state except
Mississippi. In accomplishing this, there has been a great
deal of litigation over thelast ten years. There have been
at least two hundred cases all aimed at desegregating school
districts. It is no secret, I don't think, that the SAACP
has supplied the lawyers in virtually all of these cases,
and In the course of taking these cases through the
courts we have been faced with every possible Issue
involving desegregation and every reason has been given
as to why desegregation orders should not be entered.
All issues, I indicate, have been raised, including those
raised by the defendants here. Our arguments to the
Court, or our briefs, will be based on our decisions, and
we. promise the Court we will give it the benefit of all the
expertise ve had in this field in our arguments and briefs
and presentations.
What do the plaintiffs hope to prove in this trial?
Ve hope, of course, to indicate and prove the allegations
of our complaint, that the plaintiffs are proper parties
to bring this suit, that they are entitled to represent
not only themselves but the class they represent, of all
Hegro parties and children. We hope to be able to show that
the schools in the City of JackBon and in other situations
are in truth segregated and because of this segregation the
plaintiffs are entitled to the relief which they pray for
here. We in short hope to show to the Court that the
plaintiffs are entitled to the injunction that they seek
in the complaint, making final what this Court has already
ordered by preliminary injunction the defendants to do,
and that is to eliminate race as a criteria for pupils and
teachers in the operation of the Jackson schools*
Shank you, Your Honor, We are prepared to call our
first witness. We call Samuel Bailey.
SHE COURT: Let all the witnesses come around and be
sworn at one time.
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(All witnesses were duly sworn)
SAMUEL BAILEY, called as a witness and having been duly sworn,
testified as followsi
DIRECT EXAMINATION
By MR. BELL:
Q. Will you state your full name, please?
A. My name Is Samuel Bailey.
Q. Residence?
A. 1502 Florence Avenue#
Q. Where is that?
A# Out in West Jackson.
Q. How long have you lived in Jackson?
A* Twenty-three years.
Q,. How long have you lived in Mississippi?
A. Forty years.
Q,. And your race?
A. American Negro.
Q. Where are you employed, Mr. Bailey?
A* Assistant manager for the Universal U f a Insurance Company.
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Q.
A.
Q*
A.
Q.
A,
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A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
A.
Q.
A.
A*
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q-
Where is that located?
1072 lynch Street.
Is that In Jackson?
Jackson, Mississippi.
Is that a Negro Insurance company?
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Negro insurance company.
Do you have any children?
I have three children.
Are any of them presently attending the Jackson schools?
1 have two.
What are their names and ages and what grades?yj *
Verna A* Bailey, 11th grade, and Thomas James Bailey, 10th
grade.
Where are they attending school?
Jim Hill Senior High,
What is that?
Jim Hill High School.
Is this a Negro school?
A Negro school.
Are there any white people there, to your knowledge?
NOt to wy knowledge.
White teachers or professional faculty there?
None to my knowledge.
Are you satisfied or dissatisfied with this arrangement
of the school to which your children are assigned?
9
A* I am dissatisfied.
Q. Have you ever made any effort to contact the School Board
concerning your dissatisfaction?
A. Yes. In 1955 we filed a petition to the Jackson School
Board.
Q. Who is "ve"?
A.
A.
Q.
Some parents and myself and about 75 or 80 parents.
All Negro., to your knowledge?
All Negroes, to wy knowledge,
Did you receive any response from the school board at that
time?
Never received a reply from the school board.
Do you know whether or not the Board received your petition?
I am positive they did. We had a registered receipt, with
a return receipt signed.
Was there any other response to your petition?
Nbt by the school board.
Was there any other response by anyone?
Well, the newspaper picked it up, and the name and address,
where each person worked that signed the petition, and the
pressure cam and a whole lot of the parents had to withdraw
their names.
MR. WATKINS* If it please the Court, we object to that.
That la a conclusion on the part of the witness, and we
object to his testifying with respect to an alleged petition.
The petition would be the best evidence.
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MR. BELL: Your Honor* wo would say we are not
introducing the testimony to show the truth of the
matter* in the petition. The only truth we are trying
to Indicate is that he had made an attempt to contact the. - •' ■ . ' . .t' i . 5 ' *
r. . i v ; w \ ./* t { ̂ >• V. L;
Board concerning hia grievances at an early date and
received no response. It has nothing to do with what was in
the petition.
MR. WATKINS: Your Honor, he made the statement that
pressure was brought on certain petitioners and they dropped
their names. That is a conclusion on the part of this
witness.
THE COURT* Yes, unless he knows of his own personal
knowledge, I would not take that into consideration.
MR. KELL: let me rephrase the question.
MR. WATKINS: Excuse me. Counsel has said that he is
not trying to prove the petition by this witness, and we move
to exclude all the testimony of this witness with reference
to the petition.
THE COURT: I will overrule that objection. Of course,
the petition would be the best evidence of what it con
tained, but the fact it was filed, and so forth, I think
i* competentj so I overrule the objection.
Are you a member of the NAAOP?
MR. WATKINS* Excuse me, Counsel. Your Honor, I have
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to make another objection on this point.
There is a petition mentioned in the pleadings, bat
It was a petition long after 1955. There is no petition
in the pleadings involving an alleged 1955 occurrence
about which this witness is testifying, so we strenuously
object to any evidence with reference to that petition which is
not produced, neither have there been any pleadings In con
nection with It, and it is a brand new issue that is being
attempted to be Injected.
THE COCfRT: Overrule the objection. I think the issue
is whether or not there is any discrimination because of the
race, and the fact that he filed a petition with the school
board is competent evidence — that an application waa made
to the school board. As to the contents of it, the document
Itself would be the best evidence of the contents, but the
fact that it was filed is I think competent. I adhere to
my ruling, and you may have a standing objection to any
questions along that line, and it la overruled.
Were you a member of the HAACP in 1955?
I waa.
Were you an officer of the organisation at that time?' , t ii »
I was an officer.
To your knowledge, were many or moat of the persona who
signed this 1955 petition members of the HAACP?
To my knowledge, most of them was.
How, if any of those persons received responses, was it or
not their duty to report It to you as an officer
of the NAACP?
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A, That's correct.
Q. Did you receive such reports?
A. I received several reports and several came to the office
to remove their nawa. • •
ME. VATKUB: We object to that as hearsay, what this
man was told.
THE COCOT: Sustain the objection to the report he
received. Anything he knave of his cum knowledge he can
testify to. Anything anybody said would be hearsay.
ME. HELL: I think there Is an exception to the hearsay
rule to the effect that aa an officer of the organisation
he can testify to the reports he received. Now, of course,
that would not be competent as to the truth of the reports,
but as to the fact that he was In this position and did
receive reports, I believe the law is fairly clear he would
be able — and it would be competent to the fact that
having helped obtain the signatures, having forwarded the
petition, that he did receive reports from soots of the
signers, as to what those reports were.
THE Bwfi* I will sustain the objection and exclude
it from consideration, but if you want to build the record
on it further, you may do so. I think the reports would
be hearsay and the best evidence would be the witness who
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made the reports, so I will exclude tt from consideration,
but it vill remain in the record as your offer of proof.
VR. BELL: All rt#it. We vill make a simple offer
under Rule kj to the effect that if he had been permitted
to testify his testimony vould be to the effect he did
receive reports from soma of the signers and they had
received phone calls and things from their employers to
the effect they should withdrew, and as a matter of fact
many did request their names be withdrawn from the petition.
That would be the testimony.
THE COURT: Very veil.
Q. How, Did you ever make any subsequent proteat to the Board
of Education here in Jackson?
A. In 1962 in August ve filed a petition again to the school
board.
Q. What was the result of this petition?
A. Hever had any reply from that petition.
Q. Are you a plaintiff In this suit?
A, I am.
On whose behalf do you sue?
A. I represent the parents of my children and all the children
in the state.
Q. What do you hope to obtain by this suit?
A. A better education for all citizens of Jackson, not only
Hegroes but white too.
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Q. How Is tills going to be done?
A. The kids can grow up together and they'd know each other
better, and when they get grown they won't have the hatred
that is building In the state today. The kids can play in the
yard together now, five or six years old, and you never hear
any race hate, but If they grow older then the race hate will
cone. But by being In school together, It would help every
body In the State of Mississippi and America too to
desegregate the public schools, ttiey'd know each other
better. They'd be athletes, learn each other.
After they graduate they are brothers, but they wait until
they're out of college to know each other and hatred has
built up so bad in the South It makes It a bad thing.
Cj. Were you ever advised by the Board of your right to
request a transfer of your child to the white school?
A. Never have.
Q. If you had made such a request and It had been granted, would
you then be satisfied as far as this school Is concerned?
MR* WATKINS* We object to that as a hypothetical
question. There Is no basis In fact. Be la asking whether
he would have been satisfied If he had done something he
didn't do.
THE COURTi I will overrule the objection.
Q. Go ahead.
A. No, I wouldn't be satisfied If they Just let one of my kids
in because he would be under such pressure. The only
setts fact ton would be if every American be entered into
the public school of his choice.
MR. BELL? Ve have no further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
HT MR. WATKINSs
Q,. I believe you stated thatyour business was that of an
insurance company?
A. That is correct.
Q. What position do you hold with it?
A. Assistant manager for the Universal Life Insurance Company
Q. I believe you stated it was a Negro insurance company?
A. I didn't say "Nlgrah." I said "Negro insurance company."
Q. Are all of the policy holders Negroes?
A. No, I don't think I could make that true statement,
because we are out of California.
Q. Are all of the policy holders in Mississippi Negroes?
A. As far as I know of.
Q. Are all of the agents in Mississippi Negroes?
A. That la correct.
Q. Are all of the officers in Mississippi Negroes?
A. That is correct.
Q. And are all of the employees in Mississippi Negroes?
A. That is correct.
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Q. I believe you also stated that you were a member and officer
of the NAACP?
A. That Is correct.
Q. And you know of your om personal knowledge, don't you, that
the NAACP brought this lawsuit?
A. Ihat is correct.
Q. They suggested It and financed It, didn't they?
A. They ditto*t suggest It. They financed It. We suggested
and they financed.
Q. What promises have they made to the parents of the students who
appear as plaintiffs In the suit?
A. Rephrase that.
Q. What premises have they made to the parents who appear as
plaintiffs In this lawsuit?
A. No promise to me.
Q. What cash remuneration have they paid to the parents of the
plaintiffs in this lawsuit?
A. I can speak only for myself. None to oqrself.
Q. Nov, you seem to know a lot about what the others do and
say on other matters. Don't you know about that?
A. I don't know about that.
Q. Just who do you represent In this lawsuit?
A. At the beginning I represented Shirley Bailey, Thomas James
Bailey, Verna A. Bailey, and all the Negroes in the Jackson
School District.
IT
HR. WATKUBi I believe that la all.
THE COURT» Any redirect?
MR. BELLi No, air.
THE CODRTi Any questions by any of the other defendants?
MR. SHELLs We'd like to aak some questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. limKBDi
You stated the purpose of this ault was your hope to obtain
a better education fen* all children?
A. That la correct.
Q. And you stated that you believed that this could be accom
plished by mixing the ohildren in aahoola?
A. That's correct.
What la your basis for that?
The basis of that is In the other states it works so well.
I travel over different states, not only Mississippi.
Q. Where has it worked so well?
A. Worked in Tennessee; worked In Georgia; didn't work too
well In Alabama, but I think they only have eleven down
there. It worked in Missouri, it worked in Kansas; it
worked ----
Q. Now, when you say it "worked,” what do you mean?
A. The kids, they are desegregated without any fanfare.
Q. You said a better education. What have you done to find out
whether they are getting a better education? This Is your
statement.
18
A. Well, X have three kids In school, and the curriculum is
just not there.
Q. Are you complaining that the Negro schools in Jackson,
Mississippi, then are inferior to the white schools?
A. That is right*
Q,. I thought you were claiming that unless they were mixed
they were inferior Is it simply your claim that they are
a different school and that they are inferior?
A* They ere a different school.
Q. And this would be cured if you mixed the two together?
A, Not all, but it would be approximately 95 percent better.
Q. Now, tell me, seriously: If It could be shown in this suit
In this case that your three children could be educated
better in a separate school, which would you want — &
mixed school or a separate school?
A. I always want a mixed school.
Q. You don’t care whether they get a better education or not in a
separate school?
A. You can't get a better education in a separate school*
Q. Do you have any basis for making that statement? Do you
have any educational background?
A. The facts and figures show that on the average, per ratio,
the Negro kid Is two or three years behind the whites*
19
Q. Ia that true when they start In school?
A, I do n’t know about the start, the first grade.
Q. Well, vould you accept the figures that show that they
start about the sane and that they drop back slowly, and
that they do this In mixed schools as veil as separate?
MR. HELL: Your Honor, ve're going to have plenty of
testimony on this. I think our witness has given his opinion
as to why he wants to desegregate, and I don’t think he
should be subjected to all the details, figures and statistics
that he can't possibly have knowledge of and that counsel
for defendant certainly does.
THE COURT: Overrule the objection. He la on cross
examination.
NR. IEQHAHD: The door was opened by requesting his
opinion, to which no objection was made, '
Q. How, you stated the children play together until they get to
be five or six?
A. That * s correct.
Q. And that after that they tend to drift apart and play
separately? \
A. That's correct.
Q,. And what do you blame this on?
A. Could be on the parents, teachers.
Q. You don't think It could be on nature?
A 0 I don't think it's on nature.
' • Vi V l r f c * s, . A;' ' A ■' V
20
Q. Do you have any basla for saying that?
A* I grew up with white kids, and swam together, Ve was 19
or 20 and ve didn't have any race difference. That vas
In the ?0*b . We swam, boxed, fight, and the parents didn’t
get mad. When we had a fight, it vas all over it.
Q. That *s ri#it, but when you got up on the stand and you were
asked your race, you said you were an American Negro. Right?
A. Right.
Q. You are perfectly conscious of that. Right?
A. Rigit.
Q. You are not ashamed of it, are you?
A. Never will be*
Q. All right* And all that time you were playing, you were
perfectly conscious of the fact there were white boys and
there were Negro boys?
A. That's r±j£it.
Q.. Ne one had to be better than the other. Right?
A. Oh, no. No one would be better.
Q. All right. Nov, answer me then what you said that this
whole country would be improved by putting these children
together. I just want to know why you say this if it Isn't
your own feeling about it.
A. Well, what I said, If all the nations in the TJ. N., that is the
only thing they can fight, the discrimination in the Waited
States. When an ambassador goes from America to foreign
countries, they have a problem on race. You say, why? What
la the reason? The reason ts because we practice discrimina
tion against our people. Most of the people of the age
in Africa --
Q. Veil, you*re talking about adults. We are here talking about
children.
A. That's right.
Q. We're not talking now about the recognition legally and
politically and otherwise of adults. We're here talking
about the education of schools. Is that your understanding of
this ease?
A* That's right. .
Q,. You are not here trying to remedy the political rights of any
adult in Mississippi?
A. No, I'm not trying to do that.
Q. You are here trying to get the best education for the
children?
A. That's aorrect.
Q. And if I can show you during the course of this case that
twenty times as many children from southern separate
schools can go to college and succeed as go from the mixed
schools in the north, would It change your opinion?
A. No, it wouldn't change my opinion. ,
Q. Thank you. That is all the questions.
MR. BSLLt No further questions, Your Honor.
(Witness excused)
MYTrr.Tr: B. EVERS, called as a witness and haring been duly
sworn, testified as followsi
DIRECT E X A M M S I C W
m MR. HELL:
Q. State your full nans?
A. Mrs. Myrlie B. Evers.
Q. You are a resident of Jackson?
A. I am.
Q. In the State of Mississippi?
A. Yes.
q . How long hare you been a resident of the State of Mississippi?
A. I have been a resident of this state all of my life, thirty-
one years.
Q. Do you have any children?
A. I have three.
Q,. Where are they attending school?
A. Two are attending school at Christ the King on lynch Street.
Q. is thia a Catholic school?
A* It Is.
Q. And It is not a part of the public school system. Is that
right?
A. It is not.
Q. Under what circumstances, If any, would you be willing to send
your children to the public schools of Jackson?
A. I would be willing to send my children to the public schools
of Jackson provided they were desegregated.
Q. Have you ever
segregations’
25
made a protest to the Jackson School Board about
A.
Q.
A protest was made In the year 1962 in the form of a petition.
D id you sign that petition?
I did not.
Did you receive any advice from the board that you could apply
for transfers for your children?
1 did not.
Are you a plaintiff in this suit?
X am*
Why are you a plaintiff in this suit?
X am a plaintiff in this suit. X entered as a plaintiff in this
suit vith my deceased husband, Medgar Evers. We ore both» *.
native MlsstBBippiaas. We grew up and were schooled in seg
regated schools. Be felt and I now feel, as X have always felt
that segregation is wrong! and since we are native Mlsslssippiaos
and since the Supreme Court ruled that segregation was illegal
we took it upon ourselves to try to play a part in righting
this wrong. We entered this suit, not only for my children,
but for all of the children In the City of Jackson, all of the
Negro children la the City of Jackson. As I said, I feel
that it Is wrong. I feel that the children do not receive
the type of education that they could receive in & desegre
gated school system. X feel that they ere also psychologically
damaged by attending separate schools. This, among some
©there, is my reason for being a plaintiff In this suit.
MR. SELL: No further questions.
MR. WATKINS: No questions from us*
CROSS EXAMINATION
MR. LEONARD*
Mrs. Evers, I ’d Just like to go to one portion of your
testimony.
You say you feel the children would be better educated
If the schools were mixed.
MR. BEIL; I think the statement she made was the statement
of the other witness. It was not the use of the tens
"mixed.” I don’t think the word "mixed'' appears In our
complaint any place, and I think the complaint that our
plaintiffs signed and the statements they have been asking
on the steed refer to the wordk "desegregated schools.”
THE COURT; Well, I will sustain the objection to this
extent: I will let him ask her what she did say*
What was it you said would be the benefit you hoped to
achieve by this suit?
The benefit?
Yes. What benefit do you really hope to achieve by this suit?
By this suit I hope to achieve the desegregation of schools
25
hare In the City of Jackson.
Q. And vhat advantage will that be either to yourself or to
your children?
A. I sincerely feel 117 children will have a chance at a better
education-• * ' ’• ~V*;_ 4». ;► '* - ‘ **' " "*** i'* '* **v,V\ —4-- V;' . • . V '1 gr *' ‘V ̂' *1* •/’
Q* Apart from your own personal feeling, do you know of any
facts that make this so?
A- Well, I was schooled In the state through elementary school,
high school and collage at segregated schools, 1 have the
personal knowledge of know! « that these schools did not cone
up to par with the white schools- Since that time I don't
feel that enough progress has been made to equalise the
schools on this separate but equal doctrine to say that the
children In the separate schools are receiving the same kind
of education* I do believe that it Is inferior.
Q* lot ms ask you this, Mrs. Evers, since you have personal
experience with these schools: One, do you feel that they
educated you?
To a certain extent. I do feel I could have gotten more.
How do you stand in your classes?
Well, I would say I was an average student. I graduated
second In my graduating class of high school.
Q. Second in the class?
A, Ik s , 1 did.
Q. That Is a long way from average,
A. Well, It depends on how you grade average In the separate
A,
Q.
A.
26
schools. And 2 was always an average student, I would
say, la college.
Tell as something, Mrs. Evers. In the student body in those
three schools that yon attended, wouldn’t you say that the
school progressed just about as feet as the student body
wanted It to progress?
I could not say that because the student body was not in control
of the school.
This is trus, but did your teachers deliberately hold you back?
What was it they were withholding from you?
I think that they were withholding, perhaps without their
knowledge, the knowledge that they could have given to us
provided that they too had been taught and educated In
desegregated schools.
And what knowledge is that?
As I said, I feel that the schools by being desegregated are
inferior. Therefore the teachers that have graduated from
these schools come out with inferior education. They la turn
possibly cannot pass on to students all of the knowledge that
they perhaps were able to achieve or to gain had they been
attending desegregated schools»
Then what you are saying is that if, in the course of this
case, vs can and do prove that the members of pour race,
people like yourself, who have attended these separate
schools have indeed gotten a better education than the people
vho have been in the intermixed schools In the llsrth, then
you would agree that the separate school is the better?
A. I would not agree that the separate school Is better.
A* I would sa^ it Is.
Q,. So if we could show a better education was In fact being
given to the children in separate schools, you would agree'
that separate schools are better?
A. W011, I will haws to disagree with you because I do not feel
that separate schools provide the sans education for both
races. X do feel that the Negro schools are inferior.
Cfc. Fight, but that is your personal feeling.
A. that is wy personal feeling.
Q. On the other hand, you would agree that if it can be proven
in a court of law that the separate education is a better
education, then separate schooling la better?
MR. mUut We object. He is asking an argumentative type
of question not aimed at eliciting information to help
the Courti just arguing with the witness. And she has
answered about twice.
THE COURT: Overrule the objection.
Q. isn't education the primary function of a school?
Q. If you will answer?
A. Will you state it again, please?
(ihe question was read by the reporter)
A. Well, I'll have to make the ease statement I made before. 3
do not feel separate education is the bitter.
28
Q,, Bit whatever la the better education, you are for it?
A. I want a better education for my children and for all other
children, and I also feel that they cannot receive a
better education In separate schools*
Q, Thank you very much.
(Witness excused)
MRS, EISA MARIE SIW3IET0K, called as a witness and having been
duly sworn, testified as follows!
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BI MR. BEIL:
Q,. State your full name, please?
A. Mrs. Edna Marie Singleton.
Q. Speak up louder*
A. Mrs. Edna Singleton.
Q, Are you a resident of the City of Jackson?
A* I am*
Q,. And the State of Mississippi?
A. Yes, 1 am*
Q. How long have you been a resident of the State of
Mississippi?
A« All my life.
Q. What is your occupation, if any?
A* I'm a beautician.
29
Q. And your race?
Negro.
Do you have any children?
Yes, I have.
What are their names?
Derek Jerome Singleton and Vicki Lyn Singleton.
Are any of them plaintiffs in this case?
Yes, they are.
What are their ages and grades?
A, Derek is age 14. He is in the 9th grade.
Q. Any other child?
A. Vicki is in the first grade.
Q» And her age?
A* Seven.
Q. Which schools are your children attending?
A. Holy Ghost Catholic School.
Q,. Under what circumstance would you be willing to send them to the
public schools of the city?r! VT ■; if1 ‘jit ILf *. ’'***' i •*v‘ ' . * * ’ " • •. . -,v' -s
A, If they ape desegregated,
Q, You told me you live in the City of Jackson. Is that right?
A. That’s right.
Q, What street do you live on?
A. I live on Maple Street.
’ . •
Q. Can you describe the racial make-up of the neighborhood
where you live?
30
would, I
A* Well, on the rights ide of Maple Street, which
assume, continue to/the east of Wood or Bailey Avenue, is
the colored section. On the extending vest side is the
white section.
Q. Where do the whites and Negroes who live In this area pretty
much across the street from each other, where do the whites
and Negroes Mo to school?
A. The Negroes go to Mary C. Jones School, going west on
Maple Street. Extending east on Maple they would go to
Brown, Rowan or Holy Ghost School.
Q. Are there any white schools located in this area?
A. Yes, there is one in about three blocks from where I livei
across the street extending further out the school is
about a block from where I live.
Do the white children living In your area attend these
schools located within two or three blocks?
A. Yes, they do.
Q,. And Negroes attend the schools that are for Negroes?
A. Shat school for Negroes from where I live is eight or nine
blocks away. Of course, the families who live farther
down the street would have to go farther than the eight
or nine blocks.
Q. 'These are the Negro families?
A, That1# right. And there*s no bus facilities running in that
direction.
Q In order for the Negroes living where you live to attend the
31
Negro public school, do they have to cross any dangerous
streets or other hazards?
Bailey Avenue is a main thorough street, main traffic
street from where I ll^e^Jto^^et to Whitfield Mill Road.
And Mill Street and the/track is the next crossing for
Rowan, Beaver Brown, and Holy Ghost school.
Have you ever made any effort to make known to the Board
of Education in Jackson that you weren't satisfied with
the public school?
A. We did do that.
Q. When did you do that and what did you do?
A. That was in '55«
What did you do in '55?
I didn't at that time. I didn't personally.
Well, did you ever personally participate in any protest
and make known your personal protest to the Board of
Education?
A. No.'"7 ̂; «. > * . •*. ■ •' ; :r' •l'j*
Q. Was there a petition in 1962?
A. There was a petition, that's right, at that time.
Q. Did you sign that?
A. I did.
Q. Do you know what the substance of that petition was?
A. That's right, that was to desegregate the schools.
Q. Did Jm receive yourself any response from the Board as
to that petition?
52
A. Wo.
Q. Did the Board advise you that if your children were in the
school system, the public school system, they would be
eligible for a transfer to a white school that they wished
to attend?
No.
Are you a plaintiff in this suit?
Yes, I am.
What do you hope to obtain by being a plaintiff in this suit?
A better education for my children and all Negro children.
Do you think this education could be better obtained in a
desegregated or segregated school system?
I most certainly do.
Q. Do what?
Think they will have a better education under a desegregated
system.
Thank you. No further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
By MR. CANNADA:
Q, I believe youd stated that you operate a beauty parlor.
Is that correct?
A , That is correct.
Q. Do you mind telling us whether your employer is of the
white or Negro race?
A. I own the shop
Q. You own the shop yourself. Do you have any customers of
the white race?
A. No.
Q. And I gather that all of your customers are members of the
Negro race?
A. Yes.
Q. You have also stated that you have three children. Is that
right?
A. Two.
Q, And they attend a private school, or parochial school?
A. lhat is right.
Q. What is the name of that?
A. Holy Ghost, Catholic school.
Q.. Is that the same school that the children of Mrs. Evers,
who previously testified attend?
A. No, that is another school.
Q. Are all of the students of that particular Catholic school
Negroes?
A. Yes.
Q. There are no white students attending that schOol at this
time?
A. Not to my knowledge.
(Witness excused)
'
FHiIZAHKTH WHITE, called as a witness and having been duly sworn,
testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
34
Q. Would you state your full name, please?
A. Mrs. Elizabeth D. White.
Are you & resident of the City of Jackson?
Yes, I am.
State of Mississippi?
Yes, I am.
How long have you lived In Mississippi?
All my life.
Do you have any children?
Yes.
Would you tell us who they are? And their ages and grades
in school?
Brenda La Faye White, age 14, ninth grade.
You are a Negro? Is that right?
Yes.
Q.. What is your occupation?
A. I am a baker at the Veterans Hospital.
Q. Is that the federal hospital for veterans?
A, Yes, It is.
Q. Where is your child Brenda attending school?
A. Brinkley Junior High School.
<}. Brinkley Junior High?
A. That is right.
Q. Is that a white or a Negro school?
A. Negro.
Q. All students are Negro?
A. That Is right.
The teachers are Negroes, aa far as you know?
That is right.
Have you ever made any effort to protest to the school
board concerning the make-up of the school where your
child is assigned to attend?
Non© other than the signing a petition in *62.
You did sign a petition in 1962?
Yes, I did.
Did you receive any response from the board concerning that
petition?
A. No.
Q. Did the board advise you that you could apply for admission
of your child to a white school?
A. No.
Q. Of course, you are a plaintiff In this suit? Is that right?
A. That*s right.
Q. Would you tell the court what you hope to obtain by being
a party in this suit?
A. I feel like it would be a better education for my child
and other children. I feel like it would be better.
Q. Better what?
A. Education, I say.
Q. You feel l i k e ----. If the schools are desegregated —
A. If tiie schools are desegregated I feel that.
MR. BELL: No further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BST MR. WATKINS:
Q. As I understand It, your only Interest Is in seeing that
your child gets the best possible education? Is that
correct?
A. My child?
Q. Yes.
A. No, not Just ray child, but all children, Negro children.
Q. And the other Negro children?
A, That la right.
Q. And if you were satisfied, or if you found from the evidence
in this case that your child and the other colored children
in this community would receive a better education in
separate schools, then that would be what you would continue
to want, vouldn’t it be?
A. Well, I vouldn1t say. I don’t know whether it would be
better in separate schools.
Q,. I didn’t ask you that question. I said if you were satisfied
after hearing the evidence in this case, and if the Court
found the children would get better education by going to
separate schools, that is what you would want, isn’t It?
MR. BELL: We object. It is arguing with the
57
Q.
A.
Q.
witness. The question posed is the very issue before this
Court.
THE COURT: I will overrule this objection.
What I am trying to find out is, all you want is the best
education available for your child and the other colored
children?
Yes, I want that.
Whatever will produce that, that is what you want the Court
to do, isn't it?
A. If it's what I want.
Q. How, let me ask you this: Have you personally visited
and seen the type of education that is received in
schools that have been desegregated?
A. Beg pardon?
Q, Have you visited and examined or studied the educational
processes and results in any schools that have been deseg
regated?
MR. BELL: We object again.
A. Ho, I haven't.
MR. HELL: They have gone through this kind of questioning
and there is no place in any of the cases any requirement or
prerequisite that a plaintiff in a school suit has to first,
as a prerequisite to filing the suit, go to visit desegregated
schools and have an opinion based on their visit.
THE COURT* She is on cross examination, and I will
q . Had not visited any such school.
EX' MR. BEIL:
Q. State your full name?
A. Mrs. Kathryn Thomas
Q» Are you a resident of the City of Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. State of Mississippi?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been such?
A. 56 years.
Q. Speak up a little more.
A, 36 years.
q . And you are a Negro? Is that correct ?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your occupation?
A. Beautician.
MRS. KAIHKXN THOMAS, called as a witness and having been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q Do you have any children
59
A « Yes*
Q. What are their names?
A* Carolyn Ann Thomas# age 16, and Earline, 18.
Qo Are any of them presently attending the Jackson City
schools?
A. Yes.
Q. Carolyn?
A. Carolyn, the Brinkley High School.
Q» What grade is she in?
A. 11.
Q. What school is she presently attending?
A. Brinkley High,
Q.. la this a Negro or vhite school?
A. Negro school*
Q. All the students are Negro, as far as you know?
A. Yes.
Q.. And the faculty, all Negroes, as far as you know?
A. Yes»
Q* Have you ever made any effort to protest to the school
board that you weren’t satisfied with the make-up of the
schools where your children attend?
A. Yes.
Q* What did you do?
A. I signed a petition in ’62.
Q. Did you receive any response from the school board to
this petition?
A
' /• ‘-yv. ■ ' ? r,r*y..7 ■' *■*%**£ •.*■ jy- *..I*' ;«**** •. |. *
A. No.
Q. Speak up a little tare.
A. No.
Q, Did the board ever advise you that you could make application
to have your child transferred to a white school5
A. No.
Q. If you were able to obtain such transfer, would you be
satisfied?
A. Yes.
Q. You would be satisfied if your child were transferred to a
white school?
A. Yes.
MR. WATKINSi We object to arguing with the witness.
53hft answered his question, clearly and positively.
THE CO0RT: Overrule the objection.
Q, Would you give me your answer?
A. Yes.
Q, What do you hope to accomplish by this suit?
A. Well, a better education for colored kids.
q . Do you feel this better education can be obtained in a
segregated or desegregated school?
A. Desegregation.
MR. BEXiL: No further questions.
J»0
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. CANHADA:
Q, I believe you stated you were also a beautician?
A* Yes.
Q. Do you own your own shop?
A, Yes.
Q. Where is your shop located?
A. On North Parish.
Q. Do you have any white patrons at your beauty shop?
A. No.
Q. All your patrons or customers are members of the Negro race®
A. Yes.
Q, I believe you stated you have one child that does attend
the public schools of the Jackson Municipal Separate
School District?
A. Yes.
Q. I believe you also stated that the only request you ever
made concerning this child and the school which she
attends was the signing of the petition in 1962? Is that
correct?
A. Yes.
q , Nov, if it is a matter of fact, if it can be shown during
the trial of this case that your child is receiving a
better education by attending the school she now attends,
is that vhat you want for your child?
42
A. What?
Q. A better education than would be true if she attended
an integrated school*
A. Yes.
Q* You are saying you are interested in the education of
your child?
A. Yes.
q . And if as a matter of fact it can be shown that by
attending separate schools a better education is actually
received by the child, then that is what you want?
A. Yes.
MR. CANNAmi That is all.
SOT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BELL:
Q,. I don’t know whether you understood the question counsel
asked you, and I am going to rephrase it, and listen to it
before you answer.
MR. WATKINS; This is an obvious attempt to impeach
his own witness, and get her to change the testimony.
I don’t thinfr counsel is entitled to do that.
THE COORTs I think he is entitled on redirect exami
nation to find out whether she understood the question.
I will overrule the objection.
MR. WATKINS: Be is suggesting to her, Your Honor, that
she did give the wrong answer.
4?
THE COURTi Don’t lead the witness.
ft. As 1 understand it, counsel asked you whether if It could
be shown by the trial that your child could obtain a
better education in a segregated school, then you would
be satisfied and you would not want a segregated school.
A. Well, desegregated schools is what we are asking for.
ft. Would you repeat the answer?
A, Desegregated schools are what we are asking for.
ft. Is it your belief your child can obtain — .
MR. WATKINS: We object to leading.
THE CCPRTj Don’t lead the witness.
Q. You indicated you are a plaintiff in this suit?
A . Ys s .
ft. And you do understand what this suit is intended to do? Is
that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is that, in your own words?
A. A better education for the colored kid in desegregated
schools.
ft. In desegregated schools?
A. Yes.
Q. And how was that? In a desegregated school?
A. Yes.
ft. In your honest opinion, or your belief, Mrs. Thomas, would
you be satisfied under any circumstances, regardless of the
type of education that oould be provided, if your child were
A. What was that?
Q. Would you be satisfied If under any circumstances
child would be kept in a segregated school?
to be kept in a segregated sc tool?
A. No
MR. BELL* That is all
THE COURT! Any recross?
MR. WATKINS3 No, sir.
THE CCXJRT: Any examination by the interveners?
MR. SHELL* No, sir'■>
(Witness excused)
MR. BEIL: I would like to call Mr, Kirby P. Walker.
KIRBY P. WAIKER, called as a witness and having been duly swofki,
testified as follows*
BY MR. HELL:
Q. State your full name.
A. Kirby P. Walker.
Q. You are a resident of the City of Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your occupation?
A. Superintendent of schools.
Q. How long have you held that position?
A. Since 1937*
Q. And you are a defendant in this suit? Is that correct?
DIRECT EXAMINATION
A. Correct
MR* BELL: I would like at this time to have marked
as an exhibit for identification the answers to the
interrogatories which the * plaintiffs filed.
(Same was marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 1 for Identification)
Q. I ask you to take a look at the answers to the interrogatories,
and these interrogatories purported to be signed by you and
the members of the school board. Look it over and see if you
can identify that.
A. Yes, I identify this, and I signed it. That is marked
as Exhibit P-1.
MR. BEIL: I would like to move to have those admitted
in evidence.
Counsel suggests it is probably a good idea if we will
also move to admit as a plaintiff's exhibit the interrogatories
themselves, to make it clear.
THE COURT: You are offering the interrogatories now?
MR. BELL: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Let the interrogatories be received in
evidence as Exhibit 1, and the answers as Exhibit 2.
(Same were received and marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibits No. 1 and
No. 2, respectively.)
(Mr. Bell continues:)
Q. If you will turn to page 2 of your answers, Mr, Walker,
I see in the third paragraph there;
"in the discharge of hia responsibility of making
arrangements for the receiving of applications for pupil admis
sion in the public schools of the Jackson Municipal Separate
School District and making temporary assignments of such
applicants to schools in such district, Kirby P. Walker
annually designates the time and place -within the district
for the submission of applications for admission.75
Could you tell a little about hov that is done, that is,
who receives these applications for admission each year?
Principals of the schools in the district actually receive
them.
And they receive a sufficient number of applications to
pass out to each child? Is that correct?
Yes.
And these applications generally are similar to those which
you attach as an exhibit to your affidavit which you filed
back in March of last year? Is that correct?
I don't recall what was attached at that time. If you have
a copy of it, I can tell you whether or not it is the same.
I think it is part of the record, but just to refresh your
memory, the docianent is entitled APPLICATION FOR a *ta*:*iU
ADMISSION AND ASSIGNMENT.
That is correct.
Is it also correct that the individual student fills out this
'A:
application?
Either he or his parent, depending upon hia age.
In this application he gives the pertinent information as
to h1» name, address, where he Is attending at the present
time, where he lives in the city of Jackson. The
Information is set forth on that form.
As I recall, that is correct.
^hat happens to those applications after they are completed
either by the child or his parent?
The principal directs the teachers, who actually deal with the
parent or the child in assigning the child to a school
temporarily.
I understood under your new rules that you actually made the
temporary assignments. Does that mean that really someone
else makes them but your responsibility?
It is a delegated responsibility.
Who actually makes the assignment? the teacher?
Well, at our direction, yes.
And then what happens after the assignments are made by the
teacher?
Hie child or his parent understands he Is entitled to attend
school where he is assigned temporarily.
When are these temporary assignments, and by what procedure
are these temporary assignments, made permanent?
following a period in which there is an opportunity to
request a change of assignment, and those have been acted f
4?
at staff level, we so report to the board of trustees
that pupils have been temporarily assigned, that we have
ted on requests for changes of assignments, and they acted
are then ready to be assigned penaanently.
What occurs generally then?
Sorry?
-%»■ i \ t* •*. t'-. n~.. V R . T
Does the board then generally ratify?
Hie board then acts iwoediately, passes an order, and makes
assignments permanent.
In this procedure you never actually review each of the
applications fen? assignment forms that are filled out
by the students throughout the school system?
No, sir.
And the person who actually makes the temporary assignment,
who is delegated the duty of making the assignment, the
teacher in tills school or clasB, are there any written
instructions given to her as to what criteria she should
use in making that temporary assignment?
None.
What guide lines do these teachers have?
Hie principals are instructed to assign the pupils to that
school, who have applied there and make requests for
admission.
After the applications are completed, those students who
would be going to grades still encompassed by that school
are then assigned by the principal to that school? Is that
*9
correct?
A. Correct.
Q* You indicate there is a period of time after these applications
are filed when they are held awaiting applications for trans
fer* Now, where does the pupil or the parent obtain the
information that he ie entitled to make this application for
transfer?
They can be obtained at two points — the board offices
on 1060 lynch Street, or the board offices at 652 South
President*
Q* That is where he could receive the form for application for
transfer?
A. That is right.
Q* Where does he get the Information that he can go to either
of these two places to obtain the form and make the appli
cations .
A. That is in the hands of all principals and also announced
publicly through the press.
Q. That they are able to make these applications for transfer?
A. Correct.
Q. Has there ever been a specific announcement to the principals
or to the press that applications for transfer would be
received even if the applications sought transfer from a
Negro school to a white school or vice versa?
A. Not that specific designation.
Q. As I understand It, prior to 1954, maybe a little later,
the resolution was adopted set forth in your affidavit,
which set up the procedures which you are presently
followingj but prior to that time, prior to the Supreme
Court’s decision in 1954 concerning segregation in the
schools, how were the pupils assigned to the public schools?
A. The assignment was made then on the basis of a board order
and which zones for attendance were designated, approved for
each school in the system.
Q,. At that time, of course, you had the dual zones, a set of
zones for Negro schools and a set of zones for white schools?
Is that right?
A. That is right.
Q. And when, as one of our witnesses testified earlier here,
In a particular neighborhood where there were Negroes and
whites living on opposite sides of the street, those Negro
and white school zones would overlap?
A. That & right.
Q.. With Negro children going to Negro schools and white children
going to white schools? Is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. You indicated the zone lines were abandoned when the new
policy took effect?
A. That is rigjit.
Q. r-3y question is, isn’t it correct that under this new policy
50
51
insofar as assignment to Negro or white schools is concerned,
that there is no realdifferenee; that Negroes still are
gdbg to Negro schools and whites are still going to white
schools?
A. Negro pupils are still going to schools with other Negro
pupils, and white pupils are going to school with white
pupils.
And these schools to which they go are still designated
in your publications and elsewhere as either Negro or
white schools? Isn’t that correct?
White or colored. I think that is the term.
Do you recall at what grade level in having these applications
completed you stopped sending them home to the parents and
permitted the child to complete the application himself?
Usually when a child is able to write, he makes his own
application, unless he is a new resident in the district,
at which time we ask his parents to accompany him in making
his first application.
Then would that be about the fifth grade or the fourth grade
when the child would be able to write sufficiently well to
fill out the application himself?
Probably earlier. I would say probably third or fourth
grade level.
Q. Generally, In answer to Interrogatory ^ that begins on page
if of your answers!- in that request I might say that we had
#
52
requested information as to how are assignments affected
by a number of different factors, which you indicated
you take into consideration in making these assignments.
Now, you indicate in answer to subsection 4-a, which
begins down at the bottom and continues over on to
5, that, "the discipline problem in the schools as well
a* to and from the schools" is a factor you consider.
I should like for you to explain that sentence over on
page 5 where you indicate that "tension and antagonism
would develop,"resulting in discipline being adversely
affected if white and Negro pupils were assigned at the
earns school.
Do you want my comment on that?
Yes.
Well, it has been customary for Negro children to be
associated with Negro children, and white children to
be associated with shite children in this community*
and in this situation any change of that custom, in my
opinion, would create tensions, feelings, and antagonisms.
You have been in the school system for how many years?
A. 27 years.
ft. Am I correct in presuming your answers given on the basis
of your experience over this period?
A. In this consminity, yes.
ft* Is it also the thrust of Your answtr to subsection 4-b on
-/✓
on page 5 concerning "the relative abilities of pupils’*
that the achievement ability or potential of the white
pupil and the Negro pupil is so different that it Justifies
keeping them in separate schools?
A, That is my opinion.
Q. What is that based on?
That they should be separate. The achievement and ability
of the two races is so distinct that they should be schooled
separately.
Is it your experience that in the Negro school — .
Strike that.
In your opinion are schools a factor themselves in the
differing ability levels of these two groups of students?
A. No.
Q. You think the schools are exactly the same in that that
the differing achievement are something that is inherent
in the races? Is that correct, that the whites are superior
and the Negtoes are inferior?
A. That was not my answer.
Q. That is why I would like you to explain.
A. I think the first question was whether or not the schools
affected the ability or was a factor inthe ability of the
child.
Q. That is right.
A. I don*t think so. Your second question was, was one superior
or inferior to the other.
Q.. Was the one group of children inferior to the other?
With respect to achievement?
With respect to achievement.
That is correct. The white children have a better achieve
ment record than do the Negro children.
And this better achievemen t level is attributable, you
think, to what?
I am not called upon to account for that. I deal with the
child as he presents himself in school.
I understand in some of the later phases of your Interrogatories
there are tables set forth indicating that as the Negro child
proceeds in the school system his achievement potential
falls off more and more. Now, as the number one administra
tive official, aren't you concerned about that?
I am concerned that his mental ability would seem to drop and
his achievement would also tend to parallel.
This is not the fault of the school?
I don't think so.
It is the fault of the child or group of children?
I don't know it Is the fault of the child as such. I can't
account for it.
You can't account for it, but you feel the best way to cope
with it is to keep the two groups separate?
I think it is best for both groups educationally.
I take it that a sizeable percentage of your faculty people,
Negro and white, are residents of Mississippi and were
educated in Mississippi schools? Is that correct?
55
I am sorry} I do not know the origin. I would assume that
a large part of them, but I am not sure.
Hhe findings you have made as to the Negro pupils and their
achievement level, and the fact they are less good than
that of the whites, in many instances, does that also hold
true for your faculty, you find?
I didn't use the tern "good." I said in terms of achievement.
Nov, vhat would be the question with respect to that?
I don't know that there is any difference, but my question isi
Whether you find the same differential in achievement in the
faculty people, Negro and white, as you do in the pupils?
I dorft interview the teachers. Hiat Is done by principals.
They are the people who Interview them and recommend them,
and their Judgment as to the individual who would best
serve the children in that school. They work within board
policy to minimum qualifications,and no teacher employed
is under that qualification.
Does that answer mean that you yourself do not know whether
or not the same problem in learning and achieving, as far
as education is concerned, that you are cognizant of in
regard to Negro and white children — does your answer
Indicate you are not aware whether there is a similar
problem with Negro and white faculty members?
No, I am not aware of that.
Then it could very well exist and you just wouldn't know about
It? Is that correct?
Show about what?
56
Q. About the differential in achievement and ability to learn
existing in the faculty, as veil as in the pupils?
Well, they are matured individuals coming within their
credentials, which have been certified by others, and we
accept them at "he face facts •
In the same way, isn't it correct that the pupils, when
theycome Into the first grade, have certain credentials
as far as residence, age, birth certificates,aad things
of this nature, which you also certify is sufficient to
permit those children to begin school? And, nevertheless,
you understand and have had all this Information compiled
concerning the difference In the achievement level of the
pupils, which you say is not the cause of the schools.
Now, my question to you is whether the faculties, Negro and
white, show the same differential in ability.
A. I'd say the faculty is representative of the population, as
the pupil population.
Q. Does that mean you are or not aware of it? Does that mean
there isn't a differ ence in the faculty, or do you feel there
is?
A. I don't know.
MR. CANNAQA.: We object to continuing harassment
of this —
MR. BELL: I'm not going any further. He obviously
doesn't know
THE COURT: I believe at this point we will take a
ten minute recess. >
(Whereupon the court was recessed for ten minutes)
After Recess
MR. BELL continuing:
Q. We were speaking, Mr. Walker, about what you found to be the
differing levels of achievement in Negro schools and in the
white schools, among Negro pupils and white pupils.
Based upon examination of these tables, it would appear
that while the average white child of a certain grade level
achieves more than the average Negro > that there are excep
tions at either end of the scale, that there are Negro students
whose aohievenent is above the average for the whites and
whites whose level of achievement is below the average of
the Negroes? Is that correct?
A. Which table are you referring to?
q . Almost any of them, really. Take the first one, Interrogatory
5, Table 1.
A. Oils is a readiness test.
Q. What does that mean?
A. This test is given to first grade pupils shortly after entering
school to see how ready they are to read, or to be introduced
to reading.
q . Was this test given throughout the system, or was it confined
to a few schools?
A. I think this includes all of the first grade pupils as of
September-October, 1963,
And vas given to all title students in the schools?
I believe so. I think that is correct.
We have out at the far left, A, B, C, D, E, and 1, 2, 3* 4, 5«
What does that indicate?
That is a scale to indicate the degree of readiness, 1 being
the lowest and 5 being the highest. The figure 3 represents
what the national average is with respect to first grade
pupils* ability for readiness to read.
This is before they have had any training in reading or
anything else? This is as they just come into the school
system?
Probably they have been in school a month or six weeks.
Nov, on this, as to reading and as to numbers and as to
total, which I assume is for compilation of the two, reading
and number readiness — .
No, this has to do only with reading.
What does "number" indicate?
Are you referring to another table?
No, it is the same table but as to the second scale on the
table.
A. You are referring to the figures on the left, the perpendicular?
Q. Uhdemeath the test, underneath the first one, there is a
designation "Reading."
A. Yes.
59
BY MR. SHELL: Your Honor, do you have one of these that
you might follow the testimony?
THE COOMh No, I do not,
(Same is handed to the Court)
A. I am with you now. Yes, one has to do with readiness to read
and the other is understanding or concept of numbers.
Q. And the total?
A. The total is a combined scale score for his reading and number
concepts.
Q. We see in the first column under "Reading" it has a large
column going up, and at the top the number 3*5* What does
that mean?
A. That is the average scale score for the white pupils who took
this test in the Fall of *63.
And that indicates that the average grade for white students
taking this test was 3.5, and some white students did much
better than 3.5, and some did much poorer? Is that correct?
A. Yes, would be some above and some below.
Q. Now, the Negro level is 2.3, and that would mean the same
thing for the Negro students? Is that correct?
A. Yes *
Q. Then it would follow, would it not, that there were some
Negroes who did much better than 3.5 and some whites that
did poorer than 2.3?
A, X don't know that it follows.
Q. Well, these figures here are averages, aren't they, what
everybody did?
A. Correct, but I don't know that they overlap to that extent
you Indicated.
Q. Then if it weren't, wouldn't the 3.5 level for the whites
be much higher than 3.5?
A. Well, that is what it is.
Q. You are not willing to admit at all that there were any
white students who fell below 2.3?
A. X do not know.
Q. And you don't know whether there were any Negro students who
did better than 3-5 or made the 3.5?
A. I do not know,
Q. You don't know. Did you make any examination of these test
scores to determine that?
A, These are examined by a staff member, who is more expert in
this than I.
Q. You didn't prepare these graphs that are attached to the
interrogatories ?
A. No, but it was done under my direction.
Q. After it was done under your direction, exactly what type of
review of this information did you make?
A. Just what you see here.
Q. You just looked over the finished tables?
A. That's correct.
01
Q. You didn’t go back and review any of the materials from
which these tables were prepared?
V
A. I did not.
Q. You don’t know then If there were any Negroes that scored
3.5?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Q. The only action you have taken to try to correct the 2.3
or the lower Negro scores which are below the national
average, according to this table, Is to determine that it
is better for Negroes to stay in Negro schools? Is that
correct?
A. Not on this one factor, no.
Q. But since the testss onfill of these tables are similar,
this helps you reach your conclusion?
A. That Is right.
Q. — your conclusion the Negroes are better off in Negro schools?
A. That ia right.
Q. Without regard to these tests, have you in your own experience
cane across or been Informed as superintendent that there
were Negroes in the Negro schools who showed a great deal of
ability, with respect to ability to achieve in scholastic
endeavor?
A. I don’t know that It has been brought to my attention that
\ ;
there was a great number. I don’t recall.
Q. In your 27 years, have you ever heard of one?
62
A, Yes, I have.
Q. Did you ever have any concern yourself or evidence any concern
to the board about the problem of the Negro child with extra
ability being maintained in the Negro school which,
according to your tables, shows the children aren't able to
achieve as much?
Not as an individual, because again we are looking at a
number of factors in the operation of a school and not Just
one person's ability.
Would one of the other factors that would tend to make you
feel that your conclusion to leave even the extra bright
Negro child in a Negro school be the factors you mentioned
about the "tensions and antagonisms:| that would develpp if
the child were assigned?
A. That would not have been the point.
Q. Would not?
A. Not with respect to that child.
Q. What would have been some at the factors?
A. Assuming a typical — not a typical — assuming an exceptional
child at a given time, it is quite possible he would have
found himself in a competition that would have really-
frustrating effects and defeating his interest, instead of
being the outstanding performer and would have been veiy
likely a mediocre performer.
Q. This is if he had been transferred to a white school?
A. That is right.
Where the achievement level is higher?
That is right.
This is your opinion?
Shat is ray opinion.
As far as we know, there have been no experiements of this
type in the city of Jackson?
No experiments in the public schools.
Now, we have here on page 7 in answer to subsection
*{~f of the interrogatories where our question asks you to
indicate how assignments are affected by safety of the
pupils. You indicated the safety of the pupils was a
factor in making your assigneraents. You say separation of
the Negro and white peoples in the schools is in the best
interest of the physical well being of the people. Could
you explain that answer a little?
Yes. I think going to and from school children go together
as groups, and when they travel together, they more or less
reinforce themselves j they are at eaoij their associates
are those they have been together with regularly. I think
tomo&lfy that would bring a conflict that could affect
the well being of the pupils.
In this regard, how does that standard apply to a situation
— and 1 ‘m sure there must be a number of them — but one
63
ve had testimony from,Mrs. Singleton,early this morning,
that Negro children in her neighborhood, all of whom were
assigned to Negro schools further away from their homes xhaxi
white schools, had to cross a dangerous street and railroad
tracks in order to get to this school. How does the point
about the safety of the pupils, how is that resolved when
you have a situation such as you testify to?
I don't think you can eliminate all hazards in going about
any comnunity.
In your opinion, are there greater hazards, would they be
faced with greater hazards if assigned to the nearer white
schools, even than they are faced with when they are to cross
the railroad tracks?
I think there would be conflict between the groups.
And there would be, in your opinion, greater hazards that
way than if continued to be assigned as they are presently
assigned?
I think so, yes.
In the next subsection, Jj~g, where we ask you to indicate
all other matters and facts of similar nature that should
be considered, you mention in the answer there were other
matters and factors that should be considered, you say in
your answer these would include mental and physical conditions
that you might take i rto consideration in individual assign
ments, but would be impractical to list them all.
Could you tell the Court now just roughly the type of physical
and mental factors that you feel would be taken into con
sideration.
I don't remember the question. Could I see the original
65
question?
Q. Yes, I was trying to read It to you. (Hands sane to
witness)
A. As I recall, this has been some time since this was
carefully considered. This statement would refer to a
child who might be mentally retarded where he would not be
considered typically educable, and also would refer to a
child who mi^it have a physical handicap.
What action might be taken when you found yourself with the
problem of assigning such a child?
We would try to see if another assignment would be better
for him.
I take it though that all of these various factors you have
considered snd which you have set forth In the interrogatories
as being the basis for assigning children, have not resulted
In the board's assigning any children to a school of the
opposite race?
A. Do I understand — .
Q. Even considering all of these factors and giving whatever
consideration you give in making the assignments, at no
time have Negro children been assigned to white schools,
using these factors, or vice versa?
A. That is right.
Q. Am I correct In my conclusion in reading through the various
factors you have in answer to Interrogatory 4 that race
is always a factor in making your determination based on
discipline problems, ability of pupils, compatibility of
the teachers, availability of teachers, welfare of the
community, safety of the pupils, and all the other factors,
is interwoven with each of these determinates?
Baaed on my knowledge of the characteristics of the race,
that is correct.
I take it, based on your answer to Interrogatory 7 on Page 9
that the factor in the date mining of the board to continue
its present operation of the school system, that the factor
you considered is your be lief that such operation is in
accord with the great majority of the people living within
the district? Is that a correct interpretation to your
answer?
Yes, sir.
Now, if you will go down to your answer to Interrogatory 1?,
which begins on Page 10 and goes on to Page 11, in that
interrogatory we had asked you to indicate any courses or
programs or facilities available at schools attended by
whites only which are not available at schools attended by
Negroes only. You indicated generally the facilities and
courses are similar at both Negro and white schools, but
you indicated that there are some building trades, boys*
homemaking and auto mechanics offered in schools attended
by Negro pupils not offered by schools attended by white
pupils. Could you explain to the Court what is involved
in a boys* homemaking course, a buildings trade course?
67
A. You mean the nature of the program?
Q. Yes.
A. In the boys1 horaemaking course there Is an opportunity for
thou to learn scan© skills in food preparation, household
• management, -which ultimately proves to be a useable skill
for a number of Negro youth.
Q. How does that work out? I Interpret it as teaching the boys
how to be housewives. Is that correct?
A. No. I thought I made it clear. It involves both food
preparation and household management.
Q. What is household management? Food preparation means cooking,
A. Rigit.
Q,. What is household management?
Wiping the dishes and sweeping the floors?
A. Yes, and budgetirg.
0.. And you find this is a course helpful to Negroes but not
helpful to whites?
A. They are interested in it. They asked for it, and therefore
we pffered it.
Q. Who was interested in it?
A. Hie boys who attend the Negro high schools.
Q. And because they asked for it, you gave them this course
in cooking and budget making and housecleaning? Is that
correct?
A. Yes.
68
What Is this building trades course about?
'Those trades are in carpentry, brickwork, probably plastering,
painting. These are skills that boys are interested in
because it offers an opportunity for them to use these
skills for compensation.
Would these be courses of such nature that boys completing
them successfully would be prepared to obtain employment
in these various fields?
I would say would be apprentices, very likely. They wouldn’t
be finished craftsman.
Is it my understanding there are no courses in bricklaying
and carpentry in the white schools?
\
I think that is ri$it. They are not available.
White students in Jackson, Mississippi, can’t learn to
be carpenters?
They are not interested in it.
None of these trades?
Not sufficient numbers to justify offering them.
Is the same true of auto mechanics?
That ds right.
There is no auto mechanics course available for white
students?
No, sir.
I take it that the white boys, for example, are interested
in ROTO?
*15101 has been true.
And you have never had a request from a Negro for ROTC
\
training?
No, air.
, And this ROTC training is the type of training that can lead
to commissions in the service and enable them to get into
ROTC courses in college that would lead to commissions in
the service? Is that correct?
I* I don*t think it would be a prerequisite.
How about Distributive Education? What is involved in that?
A. That is a program that is open to senior high school pupils,
grades 11 and 12, I believe, and it is a cooperative arrange
ment where there is an employment agency willing to make
a training situation for a child, and he is in school partially
and works part of the time.
Q. In other words, business and professional people in the
corranunity contribute to the educational process by offering
employment on a part-time basis to persons who can later
obtain employment perhaps in that particular field?
A. That is right.
Q,» And a Negro chosen in the city of Jackson has no program
available to him?
A. They have no interest in it.
Q. Your answer to that and also the answer on ROTC, "no interest
in that," is that based on reports coming to you directly
or based on the fact that you have never heard of interest
in these fields?
A. Principals in schools and counselors would know of pupil
69
70
interest in programs, and the parents are close to those
people and able to express themselves. It vould be
my feeling if there had been any concern, any serious
expressed concern, that a principal of a school in reporting
at the end of a year would have indicated that this service
should be offered because there was a sufficient number of
youngsters to merit the offer. It would be the policy of the
board and our position that the service would be offered if
there were sufficient number of pupils to merit it.
Now, the fact that the service might be of value to the student
wouldn't be the major factor, but whether or not you considered
you had sufficient number of students that would merit providing
it?
That is true.
The same would be true of secretarial training?
That is correct.
Do Negro schools offer the girls any type of secretarial
skill at all?
A. Typing and stenography, shorthand.
Q. But none of the other business skills, as fair as business
machines, bookkeeping?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. To your knowledge, Negro parents are not interested in their
children obtaining education In this area?
A. It hasn't been indicated to me.
71
I see. Let me get this straight, Mr. Walker. As your
understanding of your duty as the number one school
administrator in Jackson, is it your position that formed
the curriculum in these schools, based on the wishes of the
students and perhaps their parents, or do you at any time
base the curriculum on what you tin your educational
experience feel would be of value to those students?
I would say some of both, plus the fact that part of the program
is prescribed by law.
Are there some other courses which are not mentioned here
which you think of that are offered to one race and not
offered to the other?
I think this represents it. I don't recall any others.
How about languages?
Languages are available in all of the high schools.
In the same degree? That is, if the white students are able
to get two years of a particular language, are the Negroes
able to get the same thing?
I think so. I don't know of any difference.
Does that mean there might be a difference you don’t know
about?
A. It might be in one school, yes. They might offer this
year two years of a language and next year offer three
years of the same language.
Q. Would the same be true of science?
A. Could be. I hardly think it's likely in either case.
72
But the textbooks and everything that are used in both
schools, to your knowledge, are the same?
Provided by the State and loaned to pupils on the same basis.
The facilities in the laboratories and classrooms are all the
same?
For all practical purposes they are the same.
Generally the facilities, as far as the physical facilities,
in the schools are the same, according to your information?
That*s right.
The teachers are paid according to the same salary scales?
I do not have ray salary scales.
How are the teachers paid?
A. They are paid on the basis of ray recommendation to the board.
Q. Based on your recommendation to the board?
That*s correct.
Is there a minimum salary?
Yes, there is a minimum.
And is there any kind of standard you use in recommending
advances according to experience?
Yes. Five factors.
I see. What are they?
We have to take into consideration academic and professioaal
preparation of a person, his teaching capacity, his
administrative ability, and his character.
How do you Judge these?
Beg pardon?
75
Q. Haw are you able to Judge these as to each teacher?
A. I have to look at their files when they are reconanended
and determine what would be a salary that would be
reasonable and ask them if this is money in which they
would be interested. If so, we would employ them.
q . a little earlier in your testimony, you indicated you
didn*t hire the teachers and didn’t know anything about their
ability when I was asking about whether or not the Negro
teachers showed the same inferior ability as far as scholastic
achievement is concerned that you had documented so completely
here as to Negro pupils. Now you say you do recommend the
salary scale for these teachers based on factors having to
do with their general abilities to teach. Can you explain the
discrepancy?
A. Yes. I do not interview them. I reconsnend them after they
have been recommended to us by the principal of the school.
We have a record as to their background and previous compen
sation, and we deal with them on an individual basis as to
whether or not they would be interested in being employed.
q . Then in order to deal with them on this individual basis,
you must have a pretty good idea of the relative abilities,
based on educational experience and these other qualifications
of leadership that you mentioned, to give us an answer to the
question we asked before; namely, whether or not, in short,
74
the Negro teachers are inferior to the white teachers.
Salary doesn’t indicate they are necessarily inferior.
MR. CANNADA.: We object to repeating the question. He
has asked the question several tiroes.
MR. BELL: nd I haven*t gotten an answer.
THE COURT: I will overrule the objection. It is
cross examination.
Again let’s go back and say that we have this complete
documentation showing that the Negro pupils do not achieve
as well as the white pupils; we have your general belief that
most of the teachers are residents of Mississippi and came
up through the Mississippi schools. My question to you before
andmy question to you now is whether or not the Negro teachers
exhibit the same shortcomings as far as scholastic achievement
and ability to grasp Information that the pupils exhibit.
I don’t know that.
Have you made any similar type of study on the teachers as
you made on the students?
Sorry?
Have you made any — Do the teachers have to take tests of
any sort, as standard tests, before they are hired?
A. No.
Q. Do they take one of the national standardized teachers’
testa before they are hired?
A. No.
After they are hired?
No.
There la no such requirement in the city school system.
Well* on the basis of their educational background,
which you indicate you take into consideration in setting
the salaries, what do you find in comparing the Negro teachers
experience and preparations with the white preparation?
I don*t make that comparison. Yes, I think I can help you.
We are in a position to negotiate with persons on the basis
of their availability. We have a substantial number of
applications, far more than we can use. We have a minimum
salary that we would pay which is fixed by state lav.
Beyond that we are in a position to negotiate. We use the
free enterprise system in employing teachers, and where we
have a good supply we can take advantage of the market and
buy at discount, so to speak. Where the market is slim or
supply is not so abundant, we would have to pay a better
salary.
I see. I think that is helpful, md we all know, of course,
that there is a great supply — you have a much larger
supply to draw from with regard to the Negro teachers than
you do for the white teachers. Isn*t that correct?
I wouldn*t say "much greater.'* There is some difference
probably.
There is a noticeable difference in availability?
I am not impressed that that is true.
Q. Sorry?
A. I am not Impressed that that ts true. It might be, but
I'm not sure.
Q. Veil, what are the factors that would not impress you?
A. That necessarily there are more Negro applicants than whites.
Q. You receive a certain number of applications for teaching
Jobs each year from both Negroes and whites?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you advise what the approximate indication of the number
of both you receive is?
A. I would say a thousand total, and of that number four hundred
Negroes and six hundred from whites.
Q. Going on the basis of the jobs to be filled at any particular
time, would you have more applications for the Negro vacancies
than you do for the whites?
A. I'm Just not that close to It to answer that.
Q. You Indicated a little earlier that as a matter of fact you
did have some greater number of Negro applicants fro
available jobs than whites.
A. Did I say that?
Q. That was ray impression earlier. Now you Indicate that that is
not correct.
A. I don't remember the earlier impression.
Q. Your impression now is that there is not a greater number?
A. Not materially, in total supply.
Q. Nov, do you have any idea as to whether on an average the
white teachers start at a higher minimum salary than the
Negroes?
A. No, I think they start off the same.
q . You think they do start off the same?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And then along with all the other things you feel generally
are equal in the school system, you would add the factor of
teachers' salaries?
A. That's right.
Q. In view of all these answers, Mr. Walker, would you explain
your answer to Interrogatory 14 where you indicate that
the records — This is on page 11 — based upon the record
of this district for '62-'63 school year, the average cost
of the white student above the state minimum was $135-63,
and the average cost per Negro pupil above the minimum was
$102.44. How does that differential become available if
as you indicate the facilities, the programs, the teaching
materials, teaching salaries, are all the same?
A. Well, first of all, this accounting is not so precise that this
would be a true audited difference. There are Just general
allocations made with respect to certain costs, and not
necessarily based on an hour or a rateable amount. It is true
that the centers attended by Negro pupils generally are
larger. This would affect somewhat the per capital cost of
administration and of other services, and such factors
as insurance, maintenance of a plant, would apply. These
78
differences occur within the buildings and from grade to grade
and class to class. At this particular time there was a
thirty-three dollar difference. This year it might be
less or more.
Q. In years earlier than 15 62 and going back to *5^ and
earlier, there was a much greater difference? Isn’t that
correct?
Yes, there was. That is correct.
Do you have anything else to add in explanation of why in
the *62-63 year — I ’m not very good at math, but it
looks like a fairly sizeable percentage, about a fifth more
expended for the average cost for educating the white pupil
than vac expended in educating the Negro pupil?
This doesn’t represent all the costs. This is only the sup
plemental figure. I don't consider that a significant figure,
difference,
Now, as I understand, the other costs is the money you get
from the state for these people?
A. That's right.
Q, And that is at the present time on an equal basis, the same
amount for Negroes and whites?
A. Well, it is on the basis of a formula involving a number of
factors. It is for the support of an educational total program.
Q. Am I unfairly concluding that all of the discrepancy is the
allocation made by the local school board and that none of it
comes from the state minimum program?
A. That’s rigit.
Q. On the interrogatories, Interrogatory Number 10, we posed the
question* "State what, if anything, has been done by the
defendants and by each of them in the way of compliance with
the order of the United States District Court of March 4,
$
1964, including efforts to prepare students, teachers, parents
and the community for the possible effectuation of such order
in September, 1964." Ifels question was objected to by the
defendants in the interrogatories, and which we withdrew.
Now that we are at trial, I would like to ask you that
question at this time.
MR. WATKINS: If it please the Court, we'd like to object
to that question now for the 3arae reason we objected to the
interrogatory.
THE COURT: Sustain the objection.
MR. BELL: Your Honor, let me, if I may, state the reason
for asking that question and the one similar to it at this time.
As the Court recalls, the order of March 4 required that the
board cease operating a segregated school system and required
them to bring in a plan by July 15 looking forward to the
desegregating of one whole grade by the beginning of the '64-
*65 school year. Now, it is our contention that that question
and the answer to that question is relevant if the order of
March 4 was to have any meaning and effect. And while we
80
understand that the order is always subject to amendment
or revocation by whatever the Court concluded as a result
of this trial, we nevertheless felt the Court had something
in mind when it entered the order of March and what it
had in mind — at least, what we had argued to the Court —
was that in a situation such as is here in Jackson where*
segregation had gone on for a long period of time, that in
order to effectuate a meaningful change and peaceful change,
that preparation should be made beginning inmediately.
And therefore, we felt that that was the effect and thrust
of the order* to put the board on notioe so that they could
begin making whatever plans and preparations they thought
necessary. That is why we feel the question is relevant
at this point* to see what preparations have been made,
because it goes both to the good faith compliance of the
order and a determination as to whether the final order
entered by the Court at this time should be broadened or
altered or changed.
THE COURT: I will adhere to ray ruling. My thinking
at that time was that it was more in the nature of a
declaratory Judgment, and I allowed until July 15 in which to
submit the plan, and the proposed plan would become effective
at the fall sessionj so I think the question is incompetent
at this time and I will adhere to my ruling.
81
Q. In your answer to Interrogatory 9, we had saked you to
attach any statement or resolutions by the defendants
pertaining to desegregation of the public schools since
the 1954 Supreme Court decision, and you indicated and
replied s "There have been no official announcements or
resolutions made or adopted by defendants pertaining to
desegregation of the public schools since the 195^ Supreme
Court decision."
Now, I want to ask you again whether or not — and ask you
to t-.Mnif about It, if you will — the board has prepared and
issued any statements or resolutions, statements to the
public or to the school teachers, to any group about desegre
gation of the public schools here in Jackson.
There has been none.
Have any bulleti ns come from any of the offices of the board,
to your knowledge, since the filing of this suit concerning your
position and the board*s position concerning the desegregation
decision of *5^ and its possible effect on the school system
here?
A. I don’t recall any.
Q. When do you recall something that you signed designating it
as a "statement," and it was also signed by members of the
board, that indicated that "Darrell Evers et al have filed
Civil Action 3579 in the United States District Court for
the Southern District of Mississippi at Jackson. The
Jackson Separate School District, members of the Board of
82
Trustees of the district, and the superintendent of
the district have been named as defendants. This case
involves the operation of the public schools of the district.
In the sincere belief that it is in the best interest of all
the people of the district and particularly the school
children of the district, the trustees of the district, with
the full support of the mayor and commissioners of the City
of Jackson, and the superintendent of the schools of the
district take this opportunity of assuring all citizens
that they will resist and oppose this litigation by every
legal and constitutional means available,
The statement goes on, "Thomas H. Watkins has been
employed as special counsel, along with Bobert c. Cannada,
regular attorney of the trustees, to represent the defendants
in this case, and the attorney-general of the State of
Mississippi has been requested to assist these attorneys.
The filing of this case will not affect the operation of the
schools of this district. All citizens are urged to maintain
a calm and lawful atmosphere, leaving the handling of this
problem to the duly constituted authorities. Additional
statements will be issued from time to time in order that all
may be informed as to developments."
The statement was purported to be signed by Lester Alvis,
Chairman; C. H. King, Trustee; Lamar Noble, Trustee; W, G.
Mize, Trustee; J. V, Underwood, Trustee; K. P. Walker,
Superintendent; Alan C. Thompson, Mayor; B. L. Luckett,
Commissioner; and Torn Marshall, Commissioner.
Do you recall that statement?
Yes, I do. Quite well.
When did the board issue that statement?
I don’t recall the date, but I would say it was shortly
after the —
Was it the early part of this year?
I don’t recall. Do you have a date?
Early in 1564?
It was in 1964?
I ’m asking you.
I don’t recall whether it was this year or last year.
Who prepared this statement?
It was jointly prepared.
By all the signatories? Is that right?
No, not all of them. Counsel for the board and I, I ’m sure,
had more to do with it than anyone else.
To whom was this statement sent?
It was released to the press, and copies of it were made
said distributed to the faculty of our schools, parents of our
schools, Parent-Teachers Associations,
To all the parents?
No, I would say to the associations. The PTA units may have
announced it or carried it further.
You meant the statement for general publication though?
That’s right. It was released to the press first.
84
Q. Was the statement posted in your schools?
A. I don't know if it was posted, but there would have been no
objection to its being posted.
q . Now, isn't this a statement having to do with the desegregation
of the public schools, that you indicate you did not make, in
answer to Interrogatory Number 9?
That is not & statement to desegregate. That is a statement
relative to litigation that had been filed.
I think your answer here indicates that you didn't issue any
s tat eras nts pertaining to desegregation of the public schools.
I didn't construe that to refer to that document.
Have you or the board issued any subsequent statements, as you
indicate in this one that you would?
I think there was another later, yes*, and signed also by the
board members and by mej probably after the Court’s decision
here last March, I guess it was.
Q, What was the substance of that statement, if you remember?
A. As I recall, it would have been somewhat a summary of the
Court's direction to be prepared for a day in court in May and
to be prepared by July 15th, as I recall, to submit a plan for
desegregation of schools effective September, 1964. This
was, I believe, referred to as a temporary or preliminary
order.
Q. And what distribution was made of that statement?
A, The same as made of the previous: the press, principals of
schools, faculties, parent-teacher associations.
85
Q. Was there In that statement a reaffirmation of the board's
determination to resist and oppose this litigation by every
legal and constitutional means available?
A. I don’t recall that it was, but I vould think the first
statement vould have been sufficient.
Q. As a result of this second statement — - This second statement
was issued after the Court had entered its order of March 4th,
you said?
A. I think that is right.
Q. Now, have the board or you taken any other action as a
result of the Court’s order of March 4th, of a similar
nature?
MR. WATKINS: We object to that. That is a question—
THE COURT: — Yes, sustain the objection, for the same
reason.
Just to summarize, is it correct to state that your testimony
has indicated that during your experience with the school system
there have been no assignments,either originally or as a result
of transfer, of Negroes to white schools and whites to Negro
schools?
A. That is correct.
Q,. And that similarly as to faculties, there have been no
assignments of Negro faculty persons to white schools and no
assignments of white persons to Negro schools?
A. That is correct.
Q. And that the budgets and other administrative features of
of your school program have also been handled and operated
on the basis of race, with budgets and curriculum designed
for Ifegro schools, and all of these similar administrative
aspects designed for vhite schools?
A. Rigit*
MR. HELL: I think we have no further questions.
MR. CAKNADk: We have no questions at this time, reserving
the right, if the Court please, to put him on in our direct
case.
OHE COURT: Very well. You may step aside, Mr. Walker.
MR. BELL: -— I'm very sorry, Your Honor. Wiere was one
administrative detail, if I could have him return to the
stand? I'm sorry, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Very well.
(Witness resumes place on witness stand)
(Mr. Bell continues:)
Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Walker. I had asked you to bring with you
this morning in your subpoena a copy of the original petition
that was filed with the school board.
A. I have it.
Q.. I think that was made an exhibit to your original affidavit
last year.
MR. BELL: We'd like to have marked for identification as
Plaintiff's Exhibit 3 for Identification the letter and petition
addressed to the Chairman of the Board of Trustees, dated
August 15, 1962, and signed on behalf of the petitioners by
Medgar V. Evers.
THE COURT: Very veil. Let It be marked for identification.
(Sane were marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 3 for Identification)
MR. BELL: Ve would move to have this admitted as
Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 3.
THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.
(Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 3 for Identification received in evidence)
MR. BELL: Thin seems to be the original. At a later
date the defendants may want to substitute a copy, and we would
have no objection to that.
THE COURT: Yes, sir. let a copy be substituted.
MR. HELL: We have no further questions.
MR. CANNADA: May w© ask one or two questions, still with
permission to put Mr. Walker back on during our direct?
THE COURT: Yes.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. CANNADA:
Q,. At the conclusion of your testimony a moment ago you were
asked a summary question concerning the assignment of
teachers, et cetera, on the basis of race. And you answered
yes, if I recall. Did you have in mind the same thing there
that you previously testified to that you had in mind as to the
characteristics of the race, the distinctions of the race
itself?
88
A. I didn’t understand the question asked as you have stated it.
The question I understood was if these schools now
serve white pupils as they have heretofore and Negro pupils
as they have heretofore and If we had requests for
changes one to the other, and my answer was that the schools
were still serving Negro pupils as they had heretofore and the
white children were served in schools as they were heretofore, 6
and we had no changes of assignment, or had there been any made
in my period of responsibility. And the same applied to
faculty. I thought that is what I answered.
Q. it may be that was your answer, but I wanted to make
certain that you were c l e a r in your answer tojthe question.
In
With that/mind, would the reporter read the last question
he was asked before he left the stand?
(®ie court reporter read the three questions and answers appearing
in this record beginning at Line 16 of Page 85 and continuing
through Line 5 of Page 86)
A. I was correct in my answer to the first two questions.
I think I see in the third question an inference that I can
clear up; namely, that the character of the white and colored
pupils have been factor® and are factors in the operation of
these schools. That has to do with their ability and with
their achievement.
MR. CEAHKADA: I believe that is satisfactory.
MR. HELL: let me ask one question.
F T EXAMINATION
m MR. BELL;
Q. Ia that correct, Mi*. Walker, that la making these evaluations
of the factors that all Negroes, Including those few you
recall who were exceptionally bright, are assigned to Negro
schools? Is that correct?
A. They are.
Q. And all of the whites, regardless of their characteristics,
abilities, good, bad or indifferent, are assigned to white
schools?
A. Are in school with other white children. That is correct.
Q,. That*s right. Thank you.
(Witness excused)
THE COURT: Very well, take a recess until fifteen minutes
'til two.
(Whereupon the court was recessed until 1:45 P.M.)
After Recess
MR. BELL: At the conclusion of Superintendent Walker's
testimony, I believe the plaintiff's are about finished,
and we therefore rest, with the understanding that we would
have an opportunity to put on rebuttal witnesses at the
conclusion of defendants and intervenors1 case.
90
THE COURT* Yea, you certainly have the ri#it to put on
any rebuttal testimony.
Very well. Whom will you have, Mr. Watkins? Are you
ready to proceed?
MR. CANNADA: Yes, ve are ready, Your Honor. We call
Dr, Joseph Barker.
DR. JOSEPH I. BARKER, called as a witness by the defendant and
having been duly sworn, testified as follows*
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. CAJBJADA:
Q. Give your name to the reporter.
A. Joseph E. Barker.
Q. For whom do you work, Dr. Barker?
A. I ’ve been working five years with the Jackson Public School
system.
Q. Prior to that time, for whom did you work?
A. I worked for a junior college in Florida.
Q. Dr. Barker, would you give to the Court your educational
degrees and where they were obtained?
A. I have an AB Degree inonatheraatics in Mercer University in
Macon, Georgia} {fester of Education degree from the same
institution, in education and mathematics; and a Doctor’s
degree from Florida State University in the field of
supervision and educational measurements.
Q,. And what has been your specialty, if any, since you have been
r
connected with the Jackson Municipal Separate School District?
A. With standardized testing.
Q. And in that capacity, what were you?
A. Director of testing and special education.
Q,. As director of testing and special education, what tests, if
any, did you administer to the pupils of the Jackson
Municipal Separate School District?
A. We have a battery of school tests beginning with the first
grade readiness test, which has already been spoken of briefly
this morning.
Q. A little louder.
We test in reading, grades one through six, with a test that
follows the completion of the reader and the basic reading
program. We test for scholastic aptitude or intelligence
in grades two, five and eight and ten. We test with
achievement batteries in grades four through eight, and we give
college qualification tests to all eleventh graders.
Are all of these tests conducted under your supervision?
They are.
Do you get the results of these tests?
Yes.
Do you tabulate and use these results in any way?
Yes, sir.
What use do you put to these tests?
All of these except the college qualification tests are given
In early fall. During the Christmas holidays, ray office
is responsible for the tabulation and the treatment of all data
coming back from than from the various schools, and ve In turn
treat them to facilitate the further study on the part of
the various school staffs.
Dr. Barker, you have heard the talimony of Mr. Kirby Walker
previously in this case, I believe.
Yes, sir.
You understood him to testify that there vere, as far as
this district is concerned, no Negro pupils attending schools
attended by any white pupils, and no schools attended by
white pupils predominantly attended by Negro pupils?
Yes, sir.
Do you know that to be true of your own knowledge?
Yes, sir.
Therefore, have you collated the information resulting from
these various tests so as to show the results as to each of
the races — that is, the Negro race and the white race?
I have done such, yes.
Are you familiar with the tables that were attached to the
answers to the interrogatories filed in this case?
Yes, sir.
Did you actually prepare those schedules and tables?
A. Yes, sir.
Q, Are they correct, to the best of your Information and
knowledge?
A* They are.
Q,. np. Barker, I hand you, og rather, I am placing on the stand
a chart, and I ask you if you recognize this chart.
A. X do.
Q. What is it?
A. It is a chart reflecting performance for the past fall, the
present school year, on the metropolitan readiness test, a
teat given to all first graders.
Q, That is in the schools of the Jackson Municipal Separate
School District?
A. That is correct.
MR. GAHElAm: We offer this as Exhibit 1 to the testimony
* >
of this witness.
THE COURT: Let it be marked.
(Same was received and marked as Defendant's Exhibit Wo. 1)
Q. if you would, would you explain how this graph is made up?
I see A, B, C, D, and E on the left margin. Explain what
the figures represent.
A. test, given very early in the fall to first graders,
provides some measure of the readiness status of the pupil
in two areas: reading and number readiness areas. The scale
as provided in the test manual that is utilized is an A, B,
C, D, E rating scale, with A designated as "superior"
readiness status, C "average" readiness status, and E "poor
risk" for doing adequate first grade work. As I mentioned,
there are two areas that are tested: reading readiness and
94
and number readiness. For purposes of drawing up the chart,
we weigh or assign numbers to these categories and then treat
them arithmetically. The initials above the bar graphs
represent the arithmetical mean performance in both b
areas,and total performance for white pupils represented by
the red bars and for Negro pupils represented by blue bars*
Under reading readiness for white pupils — * that Is the red
column to the left — the average performance with the scale
score that we use is 3.5, which is a performance level above
that of the national average, which in all Instances here would
be 3*0.
For reading readiness of Negro pupils, the average perfor
mance was 2.3, which you see is below that of the national
average performance*
Likewise, in the number readiness area, white pupils
performed as an average at the 3*6 index of the seals, which
also is above average) wherein Negro pupils performed at the
2.6, which Is below average.
A similar pattern exists for the total of these two scores.
Incidentally, the total is not the arithmetically average of the
two means, but has its own norm table from which these scores
are derived.
Q. Dr. Barker, I believe you said this was taken for this present
year, that is the -63-'64 year, having been taken in the fall
of 1963?
A* That*s correct.
95
Did you make a similar test In the previous years that you
have been with the Jackson Municipal Separate School District?
Yes. Those are, of course, available and show essentially
the same pattern.
The same pattern every year you have been here?
That*s correct.
Did you look at the records prior to your coming to the district
in this regard, to see if they show a pattern?
Yes, I did.
What did they show?
A. They show a pattern identical to the one shown here.
Q. I am placing in front of you another chart, which is labeled
"Mean Intelligence Quotients SRA Primary Ability Test
by Negro and White Students in Grades 2, 5, 8 and 10, Jackson,
Mississippi, 1960-1963." Are you familiar with that table?
A. I am.
Q. Are those figures on there figures supplied by you?
A. They are.
MR. CAMNADA: We would like to offer this as Exhibit 2 to
his testimony.
TTHE COURT: let it be received in evidence and marked
as Exhibit 2.
(Same received and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 2)
96
Q. Now, Dr. Barker, if you will, explain that table to us.
A. t h i * provides a record of average performance on the group
intelligence test called the SRA Primary Mental Abilities
Test on White and Negro Pupils in the Jackson Public School
System for the years i960, 1961, 1962 and 1963.
Q. Would you explain to us what the SRA Primary Abilities Tests
are?
test
^ l a is a widely used group/of scholastic aptitude that
is structured along the lines of Thurston’s work with the
various facets of intelligence. Hie score that we used, which
is called the IQ Estimate is derived from a combination of
two of the sub-tests in this battery. Hie particular com
bination being that which correlates most highly with the
success in school work that pupils earn in the immediate
future.
Is this test generally recognized and used throughout the
nation?
That is correct.
00 ahead with the table. It is given to all of the pupils
in the 2nd, 5th, 8th and 10th grades of this district?
\
Very, very few exceptions to that. I will refer primarily
to the present school year. The table reflects that for
the second graders numbering among white pupils 1966 that
there was yielded an average IQ estimate quotient or score
of about 105 points. At the same grade level for Negroes
numbering more than 1500, there was a yielded average
quotient of approximately 91 points.
Q. All right. The Fifth grade.
A. For the present year for the fifth graders, 1800 white
pupils, approximately, there was an average quotient of
108} for the 1140, approximately, Negro pupils there was an
average of approximately 86£.
Q. Then your eighth grade?
A. For the eighth grade, white pupils numbering 1529 there was
yielded a quotient of approximately 107. For the nearly
1100 Negro pupils at that grade level there was yielded
a quotient of approximately 78*
Q. And the tenth grade?
A. For the 1446 tenth graders there was yielded a score of
approximately 105. For the 870 Negro pupils a score of
approximately 78.
Q, I see on that chart you have also for the years preceding,
*60, *61, and *62, And those figures opposite those years
are for the respective years.
A. These figures show that at all the grade levels tested that the
average quotients among the white pupils remains approximately
the tome within each grade level, and a similar pattern exists
within the specific grade levels for Negro pupils; so at a
given grade, the pattern has been the same throughout this
past four year period.
Q. As I understand it, you do not have these tests for 11th or
12th graders?
98
These are all the tests that are given in this district?
A. Of this nature, 79s.
Q. I show you another chart that is labeled "Jackson,
Mississippi, Metropolitan Achievement Tests 1965, Grade 4,"
Do you recognize this?
A, Yes, X do.
Q. Are the figures shown thereon figures supplied by you as a
result of these tests you have administered?
A* They are.
MR. CARHADA: Ve offer this as Exhibit 3 to the testimony
of this witness*
THE COURT: let it be marked and received In evidence.
(Same was marked end received in evidence as Defendant's Exhibit 3)
Q. Would you explain this chart to the Court?
A* The Metropolitan Achievement Tests are a well known and a
widely used battery of Instruments that provide sees measure
of development or proficiency in most of the areas, academic
areas, that are significant in the public school process.
The scale or score that is provided on these instruments
is cal. 1 a "stanine," s-t-*~n-l~a~e. This stanine score
is related to the percentages of pupils in the national norm
group with this breakdown:
A score of 1 in all instances and all grade levels and
all sub-tests in the battery would represent performance
similar to that of the lowest four percent in the national
norm group. A stalne score of 2 would represent the
^7
performance of the next seven percent of the noiroal
group. A score of 3 would represent the performance of the
next twelve percent in the norm group. the performance
of the next seventeen percent. A 5 would represent the
performance of the middle twenty percent of all pupils in the
norm group.
How, the curve is spuetrical, so the same percentages
diminishing now would relate to scores of 6, 7# 8 and 9, so
that a 1 again is performance similar to the lowest four
percent, while a 9 would be performance similar to the top
four percent,
There are several tests in the battery, including word
knowledge, word discrimination, reading, spelling, a total
language score, an arithmetical computation score, and another
arithmetic score having to do with problem-solving and the
understanding of arithmetical concepts.
Is this test given to all fourth graders in this district?
A. With very, very,very few exceptions, yes, sir.
q . would you tell us the results,as reflected by that chart, for
the year 1963?
A. We have here with bar graphs shown the average or mean stanine
performance for white and Hegro fourth graders for fall of
»63, and all of the subject areas taken at this grade level.
Word Knowledge, the red column to the left, we have an
average |erformance of stanine 5*7 for white pupils, and
stanine 3.2 for Ifegro pupils. In Word Discrimination, we
100
have scores of 5*8 for white pupils and 2.6 for Negro pupils.
In the Reading area, we have average scores of 5.4 for white
pupils, 2.7 for Negro pupils. In Spelling area, w© have an
average score of 5.9 for white pupils and 2.6 for Negro pupils.
In the Language Total area, we have a score of 5*5 for white
pupils and 2.3 for Negro pupils. In the Arithmetic Computation
area, we have an average of 5.0 for white pupils and
2.2 for Negroes. In the Arithmetic Problem Solving & Concepts
area, we have a 5*4 for white pupils, and 2.3 for Negro pupils.
In every instance toe performance of the white pupils is at
or above the national average. In every Instance at this grade
level the performance of Negro pupils is lower than the national
average.
Q. Is this pattern true with reference to prior years, or just
1963?
A. We began to use this instrument in i960. Our records reveal
that the pattern for fourth graders, white and Negro, for the
years I960, 1961 and *62 are essentially identical to that
shown here for 1963.
Q. Before I ask you about toe next chart, in how many grades is
this Metropolitan Achievement test given in this district?
A. We administer it in grades 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8,
Q,. You do not administer it above the 8th grade or below toe 4th
grade?
A. lhat1© correct.
Q. Is there a particular reason for that?
101
A* We feel that with our philosophy that test results can
help us work more effectively with youngsters, more effec
tively with parents, more effectively with respect to program
ming, that these are the important years as far as standardized
tests are concerned for the utilization of such results for
such purposes. As you know, we give other tests at other
grade levels, but In teims of achievement testing, it is during
the upper elementary and lower junior high years where battery
testing, we feel, plays the greatest role with respect
to helping youngsters.
This Metropolitan Achievement Test, is this a generally
recognized test used nationwide?
Yes, it 1b , widely used nationwide.
I have presented to you another chart labeled "Metropolitan
Achievement Tests 196? Grade 5-" Do you recognize that
chart?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did you supply the data on this chart?
A. I did.
MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 4.
THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant’s Exhibit 4)
Q. Now, would you explain this chart as to the results, without
as much detail as you did the previous chart?
A. This is similar to the previous one. At this grade level,
however, there are some new tests added! in particular,
102
two skills tests — language study skills and social
study skills.
The scales and so forth are identical. The performance
of white pupils across the board are as follows*
In Word Knowledge, average stanlne 5*6$ in Reading, 5»5;
In Spelling, 5A; in Language Total, 5«3l In Language Study
Skills, 5.9; in Arithmetic Computation, 5*9; in Arithmetic
Problem Solving & Concepts, 5-9? in Social Studies Information,
5.0; in Social Studies Study Skills, 5*3; and in Science,
5.8.
For Negro pupils the scores are, respectively, 2.3;
3.0; 3*0; 2.75 3-2; 3-8; 3*75 3-0; 3.^5 and 3.^.
Q. nv>-t« is the aame grading scale that was used in the preceding
exhibit?
A. Exactly, and another feature of the stanlne is that the score
itself is directly comparable from subject area to subject
area; in other words, a score of 5 in Reading represents per
formance on that section of the test that would be at the same
level, for example, as a score of 5*0 in Science. In addition,
it is comparable from grade level to grade level. An average
of 5 one year, say, in the 5th grade and an average of 5 the
following year in the 6th grade represents Identical perfor
mance on this kind of thing.
Q. That would indicate the normal growth of the youth from one
year to the next year if he retains the same stanlne level?
A. If the stanlne level remains static, that represents an
average year*a growth, whatever it might — at vhat level
It might have been, it has remained there.
Q,. Vhat does this show with reference to white students, with
reference to the national norm?
A. Similar to the 4th grade picture, it shows that for white
pupils performance in all ten stress of this battery of tests
was at the national average or above, and in all Instances was
below the national average far colored people.
Q. And this test, I believe you testified, is administered to all
students in the 5th grade area?
A. That is correct.
Q. X show you another graph and ask you if you recognise that?
A . X do.
Q. It is labeled "Metropolitan Achievement Test 1963 Grade 6." .
Is the information appearing thereon information supplied by
you? As a result of this testing?
A. It is.
Q. MR. C A m m u We'd like to offer this as Exhibit 5.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit Mo. 5)
Q. I will ask you to explain this particular graph.
A. This is similar to the graph for 5th graders. The testa,
sub-test^ involved are identical! the same scales are
used, and the average performances are as follows:
For white pupils, Word Knowledge, 5.9j Reading 5-9;
Spelling, 5.9i language Total, 5.8; Language Study
104
Skills, 6,2} Arithmetic Computation, 6.0) Arithmetic Problem
Solving & Concepts, 6.3) Social Studies Information, 5.8)
Social Studies Study Skills, 5.9) and Sclenoe, 5.9*
The average scores for Negro pupils, respectively, are
2.4) 2.8) 3.2) 2.4; 5.0) 3.1) 3*2) 5-0) 3.2) and 2.9.
Here again we see that the average performance in all
subject areas tested here for white pupils is well above the
national average, and for Negroes, below the national average.
Q. Is the same test given to all the 6th grade pupils in this
district?
A. That*s correct.
Q. «t%i1» is the same testimony you would bo giving about this
particular graph as about the two previous graphs?
That is correct.
I show you another graph which is labeled "Metropolitan
Achievement 1963, Grade 7." Do you recognise that?
Yes, I do.
Are the figures and information shown thereon figures supplied
by you?
A. They are,
MR. CAHNADft.: Ve offer this as Exhibit 6.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendants Exhibit No.6)
Q. With reference to this exhibit, would you explain to us again
— and I believe it would be more clear if you would take
each one of the grades aa you go along to show the results
of these tests.
105
A. I will. The same scale is used. This is the same battery of
tests that have been previously spoken to.
Performances here are as follows:
Word Knowledge, for white pupils, 6.3, for Negro pupils,
2.91 Heading, white pupils, 5*8, Negro pupils, 2.6;
For Spelling, white pupils, 5.6, and Negro pupils, 3*1; for
Language Total, white pupils, 5 A, and Negro pupils, 2.5j
for Language Study Skills, white pupils, 6.2, and Negro
pupils, 3.0; for Art throe tic Computation, white pupils, 5*9,
and Negro pupils, 2.75 for Arithmetic Problem Solving 3s
Concepts, white pupils, 6.1, and Negro pupils, 3*55 for
Social Studies Information, white pupils, 5*6, and Negro
pupils, 3.1; for Social Studies Study Skills, white pupils,
5*6, and Negro pupils 2.9; for Science, whit© pupils, 5*8,
and 3,0 for Negro pupils.
Here again in every sub-test the average performance of
white pupils was above the national average, and for Negroes,
below.
Q,. ttie same thing applies to this graph as applies to the same
preceding graphs except that this is for the grade 7?
A, Yea, sir.
Q. I show you another graph which is entitled "Metropolitan
Achievement Tests 1963 Grade 8." Do you recognize this?
A. I do.
Q. Is the information and the data shown thereon information and
data supplied by you?
THE COURT: Let It be received In evidence.
(Same received In evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit no. 7)
Q. Explain this graph.
A. This graph represents performance on this achievement battery
for 8th graders during the 1965 school year. The subject
area© are the same as for previous years, and the
stanine scale, of course, is identical. The performances
for white and Negro pupils by subject areas are as follows:
In the Word Knowledge area, 6.4 for white pupils, and
3.1 for Negro pupils; Reading, 6.1 for white pupils, 2.7 for
Negro pupils; Spelling, 5.8 for white, and 3*4 for Negro
pupils; language Total, 6.1 far white pupils and 2.9 for
Negro pupils; language Study Skills, 6.2 for white pupils, 3.0
for Negro pupils; Arithmetic Computation, 6.2 for white pupils,
2.7 far Negro pupils; Arithmetic Problem-Solving & Concepts,
6.5 for white pupils and 3-3 for Negro pupils; Social Studies
Infcaaation, 6.2 for white pupils, 3*1 for Negro pupils; in
Social Studies Study Skills, 5.9 for white pupils, and 3.3
for Negro pupils; Science, 6.2 for white pupils, end 3.0 for
Negro pupils.
Here again in every sub-test the average performance
of white pupils was above the national average; wherein the
performance of Negro pupils in every sub-test area was below
the national average.
MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 7*
Q. As I understand it, Dr. Barker, In all these Metropolitan
Achievement tests which you say you have given and have
testified to of the 4th through. 8th grades, the national norm
is 5.0?
A. That is correct.
Q. In every instance the average of the white pupils has been equal
to or above the national norm, .whereas the average for the Negro
has been less than the national norm?
A. That is correct.
Q. Nov, with reference to all of these achievement tests — that
is, the 4th through 8th grades — are you familiar with
That such a graph would show for the years *6l, *62 and *65?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. What do they show?
A. They show essentially at all grade levels the same pattern as
do these for the fall of 1965 tests.
Q. Has there been any change at all that you have been able to
tell since you have been in this district?
A, Not that I am able to tell.
Q. Dr. Barker, I show you another chart or graph which has been
labeled "Jackson, Mississippi, College Qualification Test
1965 Grade 11." Is the data and information appearing thereon
data and information furnished by you?
A. It is.
Q. Is it true and correct aa presented thereon?
A. It ia.
107
his testimony.
THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.
(Same was received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No 8)
Q. Dr. Barker, the first graph that you testified to was the
Beadiness Test far 1st gradersj then the next, the Mental
Intelligence Quotient Earned on SEA. Primary Ability Test? That's
correct, isn't It?
.-..V V ‘ .£'*:.>■ "• V v ? '- > ’ i " ' "■ ' ' Vy , v ' , ■’ ' , “ . .
A. Primary Mental Ability Test. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, you have previously been testifying of the
achievement tests for the 4th through the 8th grades?
A. Yes, sir.
Q, Now, you said you did not take any achievement tests
subsequent to the 8th grade that is similar to those that
you have testified to for the 4th through 8th grade?
A. Not as required or not in our basic testing program, no.
Q. Now, what tests do you give to your 11th or 12th graders?
A. W© administer in the spring to all 11th graders a test
battery called the College Qualification Test. This
instnaaent is a combination of both acquired knowledge and
verbal and numerical ability. It was designed as a predictor
of success in college.
Q. Did you give that test in 1965?
Q MR. CANNADAi We'd like to offer this as Exhibit 8 to
109
Q.« I new call your attention to the graph or chart Just intro
duced as an exhibit to your testimony and ask if you would
explain this chart to the Court?
A. The score that is provided by this instrument is percentile.
I an sure we are familiar with that kind of score.
The areas that are tested, that were tested, are Verbal,
Numerical, and Information Total score as yielded from the
two additional areas, which are Information pertaining to
Science and Information pertaining to Social Studies. There
is also yielded a Total score, percentile score, for the
entire battery.
The performance on white pupils in the Jackson public
schools is represented by the red broken line that you see
In the upper part of the chart. The performance of the Negro
pupils is represented by the blue broken line. Those per
formances during this last fall were as follows:
— With scores given as percentiles on the national
norm table — For white pupils in the Verbal area, a mean
percentile score of 58.7;for Negro pupils, 17.8.
Q. Give us what the national norm is, or is there such on
test?
A. The national norm on percentile score for all tests is 50.
For the numerical test, the mean percentile performance
for white pupils was 60.0, and for Negro pupils, 27.6. The
Information Total mean scores were, for white pupils, 61.2,
and for Negro pupils, 25*5. The performance on Science Infor
mation for white pupils was 56.9, and for Negro pupils, 27.5.
no
Par Information Social Studies the average percentile performance
was 62.7 for white pupils, and 20.0 for Negroes. TOe Total
score, percentile score, was 61.2 for white pupils and
20.7 for Negro pupils.
Q. Dr. Barker, based on your experience in this district, is the
result of this test similar to the results in previous years?
A, They are. The pattern is essentially the same for the years
1961, '62 and'63.
You have been testifying concerning these charts, 1 c a n your
particular attention to the first chart, which was labeled
"Mean Intelligence Quotients Earned on the SRA Primary
Abilities Tests." Have you prepared a chart showing result
of these tests in a graph form?
Yes, I have.
I have placed a chart before you. Do you recognise that chart
as a presentation of those figures?
A, I do«
MR. CAKNADA.: We offer this as Exhibit 9.
TOE CODIRT: Let it be received in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No.9i
Q, Dr. Barker, would you explain this chart to us?
A. This chart shows for grades 2, 5> 8 and 10 the
mean performance during Pan, 1965, of white pupils in
this school system and Negro pupils in this school system.
This vertical scale to your left is IQ estimate. The hori
zontal scale pertains to grade level. We see that Grade 2
Ill
tor the present school year, white pupils, has a mean score
of 104.7, which has been previously indicated on another chart.
We see going throughout the grades that are tested — that is,
2, 5, 8 and 10, that this ability level stays relatively
constant.
lhe broken line in the lower part of the graph represents
ability level or scholastic aptitude level of Ifegro pupils,
Fall *63, in the same grade level, 2, 5, 8 and 10. We Bee
hare a decline starting at 90.6 for second graders, and
ending at 77*7 for tenth graders.
Q. Dr. Barber, based on your experience, is this pattern similar
to what your records show for preceding years?
A » It is.
Q. Till a particular graph, along with others, deal with, as we
have said, ability or IQ. Would you explain to the Court the
difference between this chart or the tests that are given in
connection with these four grades, 2nd, 5th, 8th and 10th,
as contrasted to the achievement graphs we have just shown that
are given from 4th through 8th grades.
A, The Primary Mental Abilities tests are a measure of scholastic
aptitude or readiness to do school work in the immediate
future, regardless of the grade level at which they are
administeredi whereas, achievement tests provide a measure
of the level of accomplishment in the various subject areas that
are embodied in the battery.
/
112
Q. So as to tills particular exhibit to which you attention is
nov directed,, this measures or attempts to measure the
ability of the student to learn?
A. that’s correct.
q . As distinguished from vhat he is actually doing in his grade?
A. Correct.
Q. I call your attention, to the original exhibits pertaining to
your achievement tests, in which you have testified and
identified the graphs showing the various subject matters
from 4th through 8th grades. Have you prepared charts picking
up the information from those five grades and putti rg them on a
graph to demonstrate how the whites and Negro pupils have
performed in this district?
A. I have.
q . x show you here a graph, which is labeled 'Vord Khovledge
Metropolitan Achievement Test.” Do you recognise this?
A. I do.
q . ia thin a demonstration, a showing, of the information contained
on the previous charts to which you testified?
A. It is.
MR. GANHAEA: We offer this as Exhibit 10.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 10)
Q. Nov, Dr. Barker, would you explain this chart?
A. We have shown on previous charts the performance of white
and Negro pupils per grade level for any given chart. This
chart shows the performance at all grade levels tested.
<7
Q. Which srade levels are those?
A* 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 for this particular chart. We show the
average performance in the sub-test area of Word Knowledge
for tiiite pupils and far Negro pupils. The scale is the
stanine coale.
Q« what does it shew with reference to the white pupils in the
national norm?
A. It shows with reference to the white pupils that in the
Word Knowledge area at 4th grade level an average performance
of 5.7 staninej 5th grade, 5-6; 6th grade, 5*9; 7th grade,
6.3; and 8th grade, 6.4.
Q, What do you show for Negroes?
A. For Negro pupils it shows average performance, grade 4, 3*2;
grade 5, 2.3i grade 6, 2.4; grade 7# 2.9* and grade 8, 3.1.
Q. Now, Dr. Barker, in the exhibit: that you have Just previously-
testified to, which was marked Exhibit 9, you testified that it
showed that at the 2nd grade they were much closer together,
the Negro and white pupils, and as they progressed to the 10th
grade, Insofar as their ability to learn is concerned, the
difference between them widened.
A, lfcat's correct.
Q,. That is upon your IQ or Ability to Learn tests given?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, what does this chart that we are now testifying to,
Exhibit 10, show with reference tothe two races insofar as
the Word Knowledge is concerned?
A. It shows that the performance of white pupils increases slightly
throughout the gawde level in the area of Word Knowledge, and
that the performance of Negro pupils generally Is such as to
reflect that they are ’’holding their ovn1’ on this kind of
thing.
Q* Dr. Barker, I show you another chart which is similar to the on©
to which you have just testified. Shis purports to be a
chart for Reading for Metropolitan Achievement Test for *625.
Do you recognize this chart?
A . X do«
Q. Did you fhmlshthe inform tion being inserted thereon?
&. I did.
MR. CAHNADM We offer this as Exhibit Number* 11.
(Same received In evidence and marked as Defendant’s Exhibit No. 11)
Q, Now, would you explain this graph?
A. gits is mean performance, grades 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 on the
Metropolitan Achievement Test for present school year for
white pupils and Negro pupils. The chart shows that for white
pupils beginning with Grade 4 with an average performance
of 5.4, Going across to Grade 8 with an average performance
of 6.1, a slight increase in performance level throughout that
grade Interval.
For Negro pupils beginning with a performance of 2.7 at
the 4th grade and 2.7 for the 8th grade, it shows a fairly
constant level of performance throughout the grade intervals.
Q. Is this the same inf oration actually that was taken from other
preceding charts Introduced?
A. It Is.
Q. I show you another graph, which Is labeled "Spelling -
Metropolitan Achievement Test, Mean Stanine by Grade"
and ask you if you recognize this.
A. I do.
Q. Did you furnish the Information and data that is reflected
thereon?
A. I did.
MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit Number 12.
THE COURT: Let It be received.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant*s Exhibit No. 12)
Q. Dr. Barker, would you explain this chart to the Court?
A. This chart is taken froma previous chart, Metropolitan
Readiness Test, and it shows average performance in the area
of spelling during grades 4, 5* 6, 7 and 8 for the present
school year 1963. Those performances were as follows;
For white pupils, beginning with a performance level of
5.9 at the fourth grade, 5*4 at the fifth, 5*9 at the
sixth, 5*6 at seventh, and 5.8 at grade 8, a fairly constant
performance level among those various grade levels.
For colored pupils or Negro pupils this shows an average
performance starting with 2.6 at grade four, 5.0 at grade five,
3.2 at grade six, 3.1 at grade 7# 5.4 at grade 8, a slight
tendency to rise with grade level for Negro pupils.
Q. This is the same information reflected on previous charts that
A. That is correct.
q . x show you another chart which has been labeled "language,
Total, Metropolitan Achievement Test," and ask you if you
recognize that.
A. Ido.
Q,. Is the information and data shown thereon information and
data furnished by you?
A. It Is.
MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit Number 13
THE COURT: Let It be received in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant*8 Exhibit No. 13)
Q. Dr. Barker, I will ask you to explain this chart.
A. This is a chart showing the Language, Total, performance on the
Metropolitan Achievement Test, Grades 4 through 8, for the
1963-64 school year. The white performance of white pupils for
grade 4 at average stanine 5«5i grade 5# 5»3> grade 6, 5 «8|
grade 7, 5.4; and grade 8, 6.1, showing overall a relatively
constant performance level in these various grade levels.
It shows for Negro pupils beginning with grade 4 an average
performance of 2.3J grade 3# 2*7> grade 6, 2.4; grade f, 2.5i
and grade 8, 2.9, a reasonably constant performance level
throughout the five grade level.
Q. These are showing that the two groups, as such, are progressing
grade by grade in accordance with what would be anticipated
based on their previous years* showing?
A. They are showing that the performance is remaining for both
117
groups relatively constant.
Q, Dr. Barker, I show you another chart which is labeled
"Language Study Skills, Metropolitan Achievement Test,” and
ask you if you recognize this?
A. X do.
Q. la the data and information contained thereon data and
information furnished by you?
A. It is.
MR. G A M A T A : We offer this as Exhibit 14.
THE COURT: Let it be received.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant’s Exhibit No. 14)
Q. Will you explain this graph to the Court?
A. This is the results of another subject area test,
Language Study Skills, that shows for the 1963 school year
the average performance of pupils In the grade 5 ---- And I
make note here, this test is not given in the 4th grade battery;
consaqaently the broken 11 nes do not run out to 4th grade
level, but comae nee with grade 5* — The performance of
white pupils was as follows:
Grade 5, 5.9; grades 6, 7 and 8, 6.2 in each of those
grades.
For Negro pupils, 3*2 at the 5th grade; and at grades
6, 7 and 8, 3.0 for those.
Q. Again a relatively stable performance by both groups?
A. It’s relatively constant throughout those four grade levels.
Q. And the national norm is 5.0?
A, That is correct.
118
Q. Dr. Barker, I give you here another chart, which is labeled
"Arithmetic Components," and ask you if you recognize that.
A« X do.
Q. Did you furnish the data and information appearing thereon?
A. I did.
MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 15.
THE COOHP: let it be received in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant^ Exhibit No. 15)
Q. Will you explain this chart?
A. This reflects performance in the sub-test area of arithmetic
computation, commencing with the 4th grade, present school
year; the average performance of white pupils at 4 grade
was 5*0; at 5th grade, 5.9; at 6th grade, 6.0; at 7th grade,
5.9; and at 8th grade, 6.2. In this particular area there has
been throughout the grade level a slight trend to increase.
For Negro pupils the performance was as follows:
At 4th grade, 2.2; at 5th grade, 3.8; at 6th grade, 3.1;
at 7th grade, 2.7; and at 8th grade, 2.7* — Fairly constant
or, if any trend, a slight rise.
Q. The same observation could be made as to this chart as to the
others in tills particular series?
A. That is correct.
Q. I show you another chart, which is labeled "P. S. & C.
Metropolitan Achievement Test," and ask you if you recognize
that.
A. I do.
A. It is.
ME. GAMMA.: We offer this as Exhibit 16.
•THE COURTS let it be received in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 16)
q . Dr. Barker, would you explain tills graph to the Court?
A. is the sub-test problem-solving and concepts for the
present school year, grades 4 through 8, lor white and
Negro pupils.
Tbe performance for white pupils was as follows:
At grade k, 5A for white pupils; at grade 5, 5*9l at
grade 6, 6.3; at grade 7» 6.1; and at grade 8, 6.5 — if
anything, a slight trend to increase.
For Negro pupils, the performance was as follows:
At grade 4, 2.3; at grade 5# 3*7$ at grade 6, 3*2;
at grade 7, 3.5; at grade 8, 3.3. There is a tendency of
remaining reasonably constant beyond this grade level.
q . rphe same observation could be made with reference to this
graph as with reference to the the graphs to which you have
just testified?
A. Correct.
q . Dp. Barker, I show you another graph,labeled "Social Studies,
Metropolitan Achievement Test," and ask you if you recognize
that.
A. I do.
Q. Is the data and information appearing thereon data and
information furnished by you?
A. It is.
MR. CARMDA .1 We offer this as Exhibit 17.
THE COURT: let it be received in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 17)
Q. Dr. Barker, would you explain this graph to the Court?
A. is a sub-test, Social Studies. The comments pertaining
to the identification of it given for the previous chart
hold for this.
The average performance of white pupils: Grade 4, 5«0;
g r a d e ----— I'm sorry. I retract that last statement.
The average performance for white pupils beginning with
grade 5 as follows:
Grade 5, 5.0; grade 6, 5.8; grade 7, 5.6; and grade 8,
6*2 — a trend to increase throughout the four grade levels
involved.
The average performance for Negro pupils was as follows:
For grade 5, 3.0; grade 6, 3-0; grade 7» 3»lJ grade 8,
3.1. Here the tendency has been to maintain a relatively
constant level of achievement.
q . And the same comments would be made with reference to this
chart as is true with reference to the preceding charts in
this group?
A. That is correct.
q . i show you another chart,which is labeled "Social Studies,
Study Skills, Metropolitan Achievement Test," and ask you
information furnished by you?
121
if you recognize this.
A* X do•
Q. Is the data and Information appearing thereon data and
Information furnished by you?
A . It is•
MR. CANNAE&: We offer this as Exhibit 18.
TEE COURT: let It be received in evidence.
(Sane received in evidence and marked as Defendant13 Exhibit No.18)
Q. Dr. Barker, would you explain this graph to the Court?
A. This graph reflects performance in the Social Studies Skills
area. Other comnents pertaining to the graph itself would
apply as made with respect to the previous charts.
The performances, beginning with Grade 5* for white
pupils were as follows: Grade 5, 5*3$ grade 6, 5«9) grade J,
5.6; grade 8, 5.9 — a relatively constant pattern; if any
thing, a slight trend to increase.
For Negro pupils, the average performances were:
For grade 5, 3»^J for ferade 6, 5.2; for grade 7t 2.9;
for grade 8, 3.5 — a fairly constant or level pattern of
achievement.
Q,. The same observations could be made with reference to this
chart as the preceding charts in this group?
A. That*s correct. ^
Q,. I show you one more chart, that is labeled, "Science,
Metropolitan Achievement Test," and ask #ou if you recognize
that?
122
Q. Is the data and Information appearing thereon data and Infor
mation furnished by you?
A. It Is *
A. I do.
MR. CANDIAEA: We offer this as Exhibit 19.
THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence.
(Same received In evidence and marked Ad Defendant' s Exhibit No. 19)
Q,. Dr. Barker, would you explain this test?
This is the tenth test of the battery. The performance of
white pupils, beginning with grade 5* In the area of science
were as follows:
5.8j grade 6, 5.9; grade 7# 5.8; and grade 8, 6.2.
The average performances of Negro pupils were as
follows:
Grade 5, 5.4; grade 6, 2.9; grade 7, 5.0j and grade 8,
5.0. There is a reasonably constant pattern of achievement
level of performance for both white and Negro pupils.
I believe you testified that these patterns as shown by these
series of charts are substantially the same patterns as that of
prevtus years?
That is correct.
MR. CAHKADA: 13iat is all we have.
THE COURT: Any direct examination by any of the other
defendants or by the interveners?
MR. SHELL: Yes, we have acme questions.
ME. 12SQ3SAED; Should w© precede the plaintiff?
THE COURTs Yea, I think so.
DIRECT EXM2HATICK
BY m , IEOKAKDt
Q. (to the charts you have shown us, I notice that these U n * «
occasionally go up and occasionally go down, but In each of these
1 areas they appear to have a pattern of their own. Is this &
constant pattern by subject? In other sards, are all the
subjects the sane, or do they differ in these charts? You
notice, sometimes the lines diverge and sometimes they
converge, and sometimes they Just aeam to have a pattern of
their own. Are they consistent, or are they merely teat
differences?
A. You can have various answers at a given grate level,from ant
grade to another, because in sea® respects you are dealing with
slightly different performance levels. Of course, many other
factoid 'nter into it too. But Just the mere fact that
an average etanine score of 2.3 for one grade level and 2.4
for the next grade level, that la of little significance, as
I see it, vlth respect to planning the programs of the pupils.
Q* Well, are there any — In taking your past six or seven exhitifca,
you hove sea® in which your whit c students are increasing at a
tin® when your Ifegro students are holding steady. You have bob®
in which the white students are decreasing, and the Negroes are
increasing. You have others which appear to diverge eocrxxily
and others to hold parallel. What I am asking Is, arc these
mere test differences, or do they reflect diffamxses in
interest and subject ability of the pupils?
124
A. Veil, we do, in the tost results from the last four years, do
have a consistent pattern, whatever that might be, with respect
to the various subject areas that are tested. Now, as to
what accounts for these trends or differences, I am not
qualified to answer.
Q. I wasn’t asking that. I am merely asking what you have
answered. There is a consistent pattern?
A. We have not made an analysis with respect to the particular
areas in which these trends exist, as to what they are, nor as
to why they exist.
Dr. Barker, tell me one thing: I notice that on your SRA
Primary Mental Abilities test you had a constant divergence,
year by year, between the white and Negro schools
That is correct.
How do you measure achievement tests on the Metropolitan
Achievement tests in terms of using the ability of the
individual involved? Is there any correlation you can draw?
For example# you have at the 2nd grade on your exhibit for
the Primary Mental Abilities test 106 for whites and 94 for
Negroes.
A. Yes.
Q. Nov, presumably those two groups on the average would not
achieve precisely the same, while attending the second
grade. Is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q,. Is there any correlation you can make to find out whether you
are teaching them up to their ability?
I fcMnif the test results show quite clearly that throughout the
grade level the Negro pupil here in the Jackson public
schools becomes mare and more what we call an over-achiever.
Now, the word -—
Would you explain that?
Yes. When we talk about achieving at expected level or
under-achieving or over-achieving, w© normally, in the
educational field, base primarily this reference point
as aptitude or ability to perform. Now, if a pupil has low
ability, relatively, or if a group of pupils have low
ability, then it is reasonable to expect typically that
performance likewise will be low because,after all, the
ability test itself is the best predictor we have through
standardised testing to predict achievement in the subject
area. Now, if a pupil is performing, or if a group of pupils
is performing below what you might expect with respect to
their ability, then they are unde:?-achieving. On the other
hand, if they are performing beyond that level at which you
would expect with respect to their ability, they are
over-achievers, ihese data show clearly to me that our Negroes
in the Jackson public schools are over-achievers, or else
their achievement level would drop with an increase in grade
level, as does the scholastic aptitude score.
Look at the last exhibit on top there, the one on Science, and
if you will look at the grade running from the 5th to the
126
8th, you have a relatively straight line for the Negro child.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How, during that period of time, as I understand your
exhibit on the Primary Mental Abilities Test, relatively
norm.
A. It would be expected that that would happen.
Q. So that where it Is, I take it, shewn on a level as it is
here, you have in fact held them up to a level in spite of
the dropping off of the mental abilities as shown by the
SRA test?
speaking, the Negro children in Jackson got a lower and lower
rating? Is that correct?
A. On the intelligence test, yes.
Q. So that if the achievement here had followed the dropping
on the mental abilities test, the SRA. test, then this line
would also have dropped, because it's against the national
A. That *s correct.
Q,. And is that difference you are talking about now over-
achievement?
A. That is correct.
Q. In other words, as you are now testifying, you are not only
making full use of their abilities, but you are holding them
up to a grade standard in this system beyond that which the
SRA test would tend to show?
A. That seems abundantly clear to me.
127
Q. Thank you, Doctor.
THE COURT: Are there further questions by the
defendant?
MR. w a r m s : No, sir.
THE COURT: Very veil. Cross examine.
MR. BELL: Your Honor, we are not going to cross examine
this witness. As a matter of fact, we would make a proper
move, a general objection or move to strike the testimony.
I would Ilk® to say a word or two as to why we are not going
to cross examine this witness and the basis of our objection
to this type of testimony.
Now, the plaintiffs don’t have any information available
to them that would enable us to determine whether all of these
charts and all of this data Dr. Barker has given to us Is
true or not. We would hope that most of it is substantially
true and accurate. And to the extent that it Is true, the
plaintiffs submit that it supports the opinion of sons of
the plaintiffs who testified earlier tills moral ng that the
products of the Negro schools are Inferior to those of the
whites, that the education that the Negro children are
receiving is not as good as that being made available to
the students in the white schools.
Now, as I indicated earlier this morning in my opening
statement, the Brown decision of 2954 said that even if the
tangible factors of the school are equal, that separate
schools violate the plaintiffs’ constitutional rights®
In this case and with this testimony, the defendants have
beyond any doubt either than, one, the Negro schools are
inferior, in which case desegregation would be required
even under the old Plessy-Ferguson doctrine; or, two, they
have shown that Negroes are as a group, as a race, as a class,
inferior as far as education is concerned. And this second
concept, of course, flies in the face of all other state laws,
the United States Constitution, and, if we may submit, common
sense.
The issue in this case, as the Courts have previously
held, is whether of not the schools are segregated; and if
the schools are segregated, as this circuit has said
frequently, then what kind of plan of desegregating should
be brought in, and when it should take effect.
We have attempted to show that the schools are segregated,
and it appears that the defendants admit that this is so
and are here attempting to justify that segregation. Shis,
as we also indicated this morning, is not novel nor new, and
we support our general objection to continuing with this type
of testimony and refer the Court to the early Fifth Circuit
decision — relatively early, back In 1957 — in one of the
phases of the New Orleans school case litigation. The title
there was Orleans Parish School Board vs. Bush, 242 Fed.2d
156, at Page 165, where the Court reviewed parts of the
record tending to show that Negroes as a class were less
able to learn than their white counterparts, and therefore
a classification based on race was justifiable. The Court
129
said that it was interesting that there had been suggestion
by the defendant board of a classification of students based
on ability to learn, and they felt if such a classification
had been suggested that the court would have no objection
to it and didn’t feel the Constitution would have any
objection; but as to the classification based on race, the
court said — and I quotes
"it is unthinkable that an arbitrary classification by
race because of the more frequent identification of one race
than another with certain undesirable qualities would be
a reasonable classification."
For that reason, Your Honor, we would generally object to
all this type of testimony and have no cross examination.
OHE COURT: At this time I will overrule the objection.
You may step down.
(Witness excused)
(Whereupon the court was recessed for ten minutes)
After-Recess
MR. WATKINS: We'd like to call John Bell Williams.
JOHN BRIL WILLIAMS, called as a witness and having been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
DIREC TEXANnew[•KM
BY MR. WATKINS:
Q. Please state your name.
A. John Bell Wil.ll.aRB
130
Q. Your age?
A. 45, I believe.
Q,. Where do you live?
A. My home Is In Raymond, Mississippi.
Q. What Is your educational background?
A. I graduated from hi#i school at Raymond, Mississippij graduated
from Junior College at Raymond, Mississippi; and attended the
University of Mississippi and the Jackson, Mississippi, School
of Law. I am a lawyer by profession, a member of the
Mississippi State Bar.
Q. Are you a member of Congress?
A, I am.
Q. What district do you represent?
A. At present I represent the district designated as the Third
Congressional District of the State of Mississippi.
Q. Does that include the City of Jackson?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long have you been a Mississippi representative in
Congress?
.A. I took the oath of office on January 3rd, 1947. That makes,
I believe I ’m in tny 18th year of service.
Q. Congressman, please state the congressional comaittees of
which you are a member, together with the length of time
you have been amember of each committee.
A. I am a member of the House Committee on Interstate and
Foreign Commerce, and I have been a member of that committee
since my appointment to that committee in 1951* I am also
a member of the committee on the District of Columbia, and
I believe that I vent on that committee In 1955* as well as
I recall.
q . Please tell the Court whether, as a member of the Gocmittee
on the District of Columbia, you have had occasion to make a
study and investigation of the public schools of the District
of Columbia.
A. In 1956 by direction of the Comittee on the District of
Columbia, & special subcommittee was set up to investigate —
May I make reference to the exact title?— to investigate
public school standards and conditions and juvenile
delinquency in the District of Columbia. The chairman of
that committee was Honorable James C. Davis of the State of
Georgia. I was appointed as the ranking Democratic member
of that committee, and serving with us on that committee were
Honorable Woodrow W. Jones of the State of North Carolina,
with the Republican members Honorable A. L. Miller of the
State of Nebraska; Honorable Joel T. Broyhill of the State
of Virginia; and Honorable DeWitt S. HJyde of the State of
Maryland.
I served as a member of that committee, and we took tes
timony from a number of witnesses in the District of
Columbia Public School System. I believe that we took some
two weeks of testimony which covered some five hundred pages
of transcript.
Q. Do you have there & copy of the report of that camlttee
on its findings?
A, I do.
HR. WA.TKH5S: If it please the Court, I ’d like to offer the
cocmittee report in evidence as an exhibit in this case.
MR. BELL; Your Honor, ve are going to object to the
admission of that report as completely Irrelevant to any
of the issues involved in this case. The issue here primarily
is -whether or not the schools in the city of Jackson are segre
gated as far as race 1b concerned. What the situation in
Washington is, what the findings of this particular coranittee
are are completely irrelevant to that, as far as we have been
able to find from the pleadings.
HR. WAIKERS: We expect to show that the situation is
comparable in that the percentages of population are sub
stantially the same, and we expect to show by this witness
and by the committee*a report what happened with bo£h races
as a result of the integration of the schools in Washington,
D. C., in all phases, from questions of deportment, from
scholastic achievement, on up aid down the line, how a good
school system for both races deteriorated as a result of the
integration of those schools. And it is a matter that is
carefully documented and itemised. This witness knows of itj
he participated in it, and this Congressional reports comments
on it and brings out step by step, and it is competent to show
what will happen to the schools of this district if this Court
f
requires them to be Integrated as were the District of
Columbia schools.
MR. BELL: I add a further objection, with all due regard
to the Congressman. I must confess that I have never had
a Congressman testifying In any school cases in which I ’ve
been involved. It is somswhat of a different experience.
But t M R particular report, if aimed at proving what counsel
indicates he hopes to prove by It, is certainly further
incompetent by reason of the fact that It is a document that
has been subject to a great deal of controversy, with It being
hailed as an outstanding document by those who wish to preserve
segregation and condemned heartily as a political document by
those who believe the desegregation is the way the school
system Should be run. For a further reason, we would suggest
that the document, testimony based on it, are Incompetent to
this case.
tot?. CO0ET: I will overrule the objection. I think the
obje ction goes to the weight, rather than the admissibility.
The document is authorized by a resolution of Congress to be
made, and I think under those circumstances it is one of the
facets that might be considered by the Court in determining
the Issue here; so I overrule the object43a and will let It
be received.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant’s Exhibit No. 20)
MR. WATKINS: Your Honor, the Congressman states that I
took h** copy away from him, and he has some notes he has
135
added in pencil and pen on it. May I have & copy that has not
been narked on in any respect substituted for the exhibit,
rather than the one the Congressman has?
THE COURT: Yes.
(Sane was substituted)
TOE WITNESS; Would you like me to Identify that as being
& true and correct copy?
MR. WATKINS: Yes.
See if this is a correct copy of the committee1 s report.
This is a copy of the report of the subcoomittee
following the investigation.
MR. WATKINS: Then we offer this copy.
(Same previously marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 20)
Please tell the Court whether prior to 195*1- and the Brown
decision by the Supreme Court the schools of the District of
Columbia were segregated or integrated.
The District of Columbia operated a segregated school system,
Division A being the white schools and Division B being the
colored schools. Tae schools operated under a single school
board, under a single superintendent of schools, but each division
had its own superintendent and own principals, its own teachers;
so in response to your question, the answer is that prior to
1954 separate school systems were operated.
■hen. were the schools of the District of Columbia integrated?
The schools of the District of Columbia were integrated in the
fall of the school year beginning in 1954. I believe that was
some five or six months following the Supreme Court*s
Decision of May 17th.
Q. What effect, if any, did integration of the schools have on the
size of the white population In the District?
A. I think it is quite evident that the act of integrating
the public school system in the District of Columbia brought
about a mass exodus of white residents from the District of
Columbia into the suburbs, which at that time were tdally
segregated.
As a matter of fact, if it*s permissible, I have in my
hand the population figures as shown by the 1950 census
and the i960 census, which show that in 1950 the white
population of the District of Columbia which amounted to some
65 percent of the total population was 517,865 people. The
Negro population of the District of Columbia in 1950 was
280,805. By I960, six years following the integration of the
schools, the white population had declined by some
172,602 people to a total of 5^5,265, while the Negro population
had risen by 120,954 people to a total of 411,757.
So the ratio of Negroes to whites rose from 55 percent
colored and 65 percent white in 1950 to a figure of 55 percent
colored and 45 percent white in i960.
Q. And by 1956 what effect had integration had on the '
percentage of white and Negroes in the schools?
A. May I make reference to the school report,which contains those
figures?
136
Q. Yes.
A. I believe I have that here in more condensed form.
Q. All right.
Of a total enrollment in the public school system of the
District of Columbia in 1954 — that was the first year of
Integration — it showed a total of 60.8 percent Negro.
Of a total enrollment of 110,041 students in 1957, that had
risen from 60.8 percent to 71*3 percent Negro. By i960
out of a total school population of 122,879, that had risen to
79.6 percent Negro. Out of a total enrollment in the school
year 1962, that's the school year Just ending, out of a total
of 139,156 students enrolled, the total Negro population in this
school had risen to 85.5 percent, leaving a proportion of
85.5 percent Negro and 13•5 — or 14.5 percent white. And
the white population of the public school system of the
j
District of Columbia is still on the decline.
What has been the effect of integration on the scholastic
standards on the schools of the District?
I can testify only as to the findings of the committee
which investigated the schools in 1956 for those two years
of integration.
My answer to that is that definitely there had been a
lowering of standards in the public school system, which was
admitted by the officials of the public school system.
Were national standardized educational achievement and
IQ tests given in the schools of the district during the 1955-
1956 school year?
It was testified before the committee by the school officials
that tests were given. Did you say achievement tests?
Yes, achievement and IQ.
Achievement and IQ tests were given.
What did the tests show with respect to the IQ's of Negro and
white children as compared to the national average for the
third grade?
For the third grade?
Yes, sir.
The citywide tests, third grade, California Test of Mental
Maturity, which was an IQ test, showed that In the all white
schools, or predominantly white schools of the District of
Columbia----Perhaps I should clarify that by spying that
In 195^ the schools sytem of the District of Columbia stopped
keeping figures by race. It was necessary for the committee,
in order to get the complete picture of the situation, to cate
gorize the schools of the District of Columbia into predominantly
white and predominantly Negro and heavily integrated schools. ----
The predominantly white schools ran as high as 98 and 99 percent
white, sad the predominantly Negro schools ran about at the
same proportion colored. Ihe heavily Integrated schools ran
from 55 to 65 percent of one race.
Now, in the third grade, California test of mental maturity,
primary form, out of 10,098 third-grade pupils tested, showed
that Group 1, which was the predominantly white school---
that*8 22 elementary schools 99 percent white — showed
an average IQ rating of 105, five points above the
national average.
The Integrated group, which is group III, the average
IQ was 96 — between I and II — while the second group,
which is all colored or predominantly or 99 percent
colored, the average IQ was 87, whioh Is thirteen points
below the national average. So for comparison we find that
the white schools were five points above the national average,
while the Negro schools were thirteen points below the
national average.
Q. Was the Stanford Achievement Test given for thatsame
third grade?
Yes, it was.
What was the result of that?
The citywide achievement, Stanford Achievement Teat, reading
and arithmetic, primary form J, Grade 3, composed of five
objective tests which included paragraph meaning, word
meaning, spelling, arithmetic reasoning, arithmetic compute-
tion, showed that the oitywide average on these tests
was 2.5, almost one grade below the national average.
However, when you get Into the white schools and you check
those out, you fl rd that the grade placement, 3*1, was
exactly on the grade average. Group II, which was the
integrated group, brought it down to 2.2, one grade below
the natlonalaveragej and the predominantly N e g r o ----Oh,
I*m sorry. That was the the Negro schools. Group 2 is the
predominantly Negro. — The integrated schools,
grade placement, 2.6, one-half grade below the national
average, and between Group I and Group U .
Please state whether the results of the tests given the
5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 11th, and 12th grades were comparable
to those of the third grade. The results.
The results were comparable, yes.
What effect did these tests have on those charged with the
administration of the schools of the District?
They were quite surprised to find the wide disparity
between the colored and white schools in regard, particularly,
to achievement, as well as intelligence tests. The result was
that they had to reorganize their school standard. It was
necessary for them to reduce their school standards, and
they also found it necessary, according to some of the
teachers, to spend more time trying to keep order in the
classroom than they were able to spend in teaching the
children. They found it necessary, so it was testified,
to reorganize their promotional standard, for instance, to
to the point where the president of the school board, as well
as I recall, testified that students were being promoted on
the basis of age, height and weight, rather than on scholastic
achievement.
Did the disparity between the races decrease or increase
In the higher grades?
The disparity In achievement, you mean?
Yes.
The disparity Increased as the grades went higher, and that
is shown definitely by statistical data which was furnished to
the committee and which was furnished by the District of
Columbia School Board itself.
Did the schools of the District have many unusual disciplinary
problems before integration?
It was testified that they did not have any significant
disciplinary problems prior to integration. That was testified
by numerous teachers, principals, and other officials of the
District of Columbia schools.
And have there been any unusual disciplinary problems in the
schools since integration?
Yes, sir. It was testified at one school In particular that
It was necessary to call the police at least 25 times during
one school year to quell disturbances and to assist in
maintaining discipline in the school. It was testified at
another schools that it was necessary for them to keep
policemen patrolling the corridors. One teacher after
another, one principal after another, testified, as I
mentioned a moment ago, that they spent most of their time
trying to maintain order in the classroom and found precious
little time in which to instruct their students.
What effect—
— To give you an example, the subject of vandalism came
up in the schools. We found that in 1955~*56 that they
had to put an expenditure of some — they had to designate
some $50,000.00 for the purpose of replacing broken windows
in the buildings. I contacted the District of Columbia Board
of Education and found the other day that in the current fiscal
year, or in the current fiscal budget, a hundred thousand
dollars is set aside for that purpose. So it appears to be on
the increase, rather than the decrease.
What effect has this had on the teachers of the District?
Well, the teachers themselves, I think perhaps their testimony
would provide a much better answer certainly than I could
provide, because I simply listened to the testimony that was
given by the teachers, but many of the teachers found it desirable
*
to apply for early retirement. Others stated that they were —
and I quote — "nervous wrecks," and others stated that they
were performing a most frustrating task in attempting to
teach in these schools under these conditions.
If you would permit me to elaborate on that Just a bit,
I would read some of the testimony as it appears in this
report.
You are now reading from the exhibit.
Excerpts from the testimony of the school personnel. This
bdgins on page 25 of the report. I won't belabor the Court
with reading all of this, but I would simply refer the Court
to the testimony quoted from Mr. John Paul Collins, on
page 25:
"Fighting, including several knifings, vent on continuously.
While such incidents had occurred occasionally in previous
years, they became more or less commonplace following inte
gration, to the point of creating a serious disciplinary
problem.
“There have been more thefts at Eastern High in the last
two years than I had known in all my thirty-odd years in the
school system. A teacher still at Eastern...."—
This is the testimony of the former principal at Eastern
High School.
— "A teacher still at Eastern told me recently that
stealing is now so rife at the school that it is no longer
practical to attempt to report all stealing incidents."...
"I heard two colored boys making obscene remarks about a whie
girl who was passing in the hall. I promptly suspended these
boys until such time as I could get satisfactory assurances
from their parents that they would discontinue such conduct."...
"Prior to integration," he said, "I loved and lived with
my work, but the problems which I encountered after integration
has brought about a lowering of public school standards and
student academic achievement in the District of Columbia
public schools. It has created problems of discipline that
have disrupted educational processes."
Other witnesses, Mrs. Katherine Reid, one of the teachers
difficult. I found it very hard to make the colored
children do what I told them. And one day I was talking to a
little colored girl, and one of the colored boys said, "Miss
Reid, why don*t you stop talking to her and bat her over
the head, the way her last teacher did," until we wondered
if they used corporal punishment in division II." —
I believe a moment ago I referred to it as Division B,
but it*s Division I and Division II, Division I being the
white schools.
Mrs. Reid said, "There was constant fighting in the
classrooms between colored and colored, and sometimes
between colored and white. They would bat each other over
the head with books. The teachers have become very nervous
and upset. I am not saying all, but some have."
Mr. Arthur Storey testified along the same lines. Mr.
Wilmer Bennett of the school system; Mrs. Dorothy Denton,
and numerous others; Mrs. Elva Wells, the principal of
Theodore Roosevelt High School, I believe, testified to
very much the same thing.
All of this is in the report which has been introduced
in evidence, I believe, and I won*t belabor the Court by
reciting that further unless it is desired.
Q. Have there been any other developments which have come to
your attention subsequent to the report of the committee
in one of t he schools t
"After integration the disciplinary problem vas very
144
■with reference to the schools?
A The public school system In the District of Columbia has been
a constant source of controversy, to say the least, in the
District of Columbia. Numerous studies, private studies, h a w
been made of the District public schools by private groups
with their own personal axes to grind, but the fact remains
that the white population of the District of Columbia
continues to flee to the States of Virginia and Maryland,
where the schools are either all white or predominantly
white, to escape the low standards of the schools which they
have in the District of Columbia. As a matter of fact, the
present superintendent, Dr. Hansen, has been under a great
deal of fire in recent months becauseof the low standards
that prevail and obtain in the Washington public school
system.
The Court might be interested to know that in 1955 the
operational cost of the schools on a per student basis
was $266.00 per year per student. The figures which are
contained in the current appropriations bills under which the
public schools of the District of Columbia are operating
now, when divided by the number of students in the public
school system of the District of Columbia, shows that the
current operating per student cost of the District of
Columbia schools has risen from the $266.00 figure in 1955
to a current figure of $477*00 per student, which is an
increase of $211.00 per student since 1955*
A. Since the schools were integrated, yes.
MR. WATKINSs I believe that is all. Your witness.
MR. BELL: We would, Your Honor, merely renew our
objection, pointing out in support of our objection to this
testimony, that the report shows that its members — and
there were six persons on the subcommittee — and five of
the six, JaraBs C. Davis of Georgia, John Bell Williams of
Mississippi, Woodrow W. Jones of North Carolina, Joel T.
Broyhill of Virginia, and DeWitt S. Hyde of Maryland —
five of the six cam© and were representing states which
were directly affected by the 195^ Supreme Court Decision —
that is, that decision would have required a change in the
method of the operating of schools in the states from which
these men came.
Further, there was only one other man who came from a
state where the decision of *54 would not have a direct
effect, and he was A. L. Miller.
Now, it is, we feel, significant in amplifying our earlier
objection, that two men, Congressman Miller and Congressman
Hyde, — Congressman Miller from Nebraska, and Congressman
Hyde from Maryland — did not sign the report which the
other members signed, and they stated as their reasons the
following:
"Since we have not signed the majority report submitted
by the staff of the subcommittee, we desire to offer the
Q. Since the schools were integrated?
following observations:
"l, We have carefully read the hearings, report, and the
recomnendations made by the staff and the subcommittee.
There is much in the report that is factual. The statistics
speak for themselves, and it is not a record of which anyone
can be proud. The report is provocative. It deals with the
sordid, headline items almost entirely. We have a feeling that
a more objective approach would uncover some good things in
the educational and social life of the District schools.
n2. The report seems to blame all of the educational defi
ciencies in our school system entirely on the efforts toward
\
integration. We cannot believe that everything that is wrong
with the educational system can be blamed on integration.
It is quite probable that many of the unsatisfactory conditions
brought to light by the investigation may have been caused
by conditions that existed prior to integration, and are due
to factors other than integration.
"3. In a close reading of the hearings, we must cans to
the conclusion that the technical staff presented leading ques
tions to a selected group of witnesses. While we do not doubt
the honesty or sincerity of the witnesses who testified, the
testimony does not appear to be well-balanced, or objective,
since persons with views not in accord with those of the
counsel were not given full and fair opportunity to testify.
n4. While the report shows some preliminary planning had
been made for desegregation, it does seem evident that no
complete plan had been carefully brought to a conclusion.
There did not seem to be a sufficient awareness of the many
problems that would be faced by the sudden change. While
the Supreme Court decision must be taken as final, we
believe it did leave some opportunities for '& little play at
the joints* in order to work out the many delicate, emotional,
and prejudice-packed problems of integration.
*’5* It appears to us that several of the legislative
recommendations of the subcommittee report are not the
proper subject of legislation, but rather should remain
administrative decisions. In addition there are a number of
the legislative recommendations which we do not believe were
covered by the testimony. For example, recommendations
numbered 1, 6 and 9 do not appear to be the proper subject for
legislation] recommendations numbered 7 and 8 were not
sufficiently covered by the testimony to come to any
intelligent conclusion.
"6, Ifce facts brought to light by this investigation seem
to indicate that Negro leaders, and those actively interested
In the advancement of the Negro people, have much work to
do among the Negro people, and that all of the difficulties
attended with integration are not caused by the seemingly
uncompromising attitude of the white people.
"7. 1516 recommendations of the subcommittee issued
subsequent to the original report, 'that racially separate pui
lie schodls be reestablished in the District of Columbia,'
obviously cannot be done without a constitutional
amendment."
Biese views were signed by Congressmen Miller and Hyde,
and for these reasons we renew the earlier objection to the
testimony.
THE COURT: I will adhere to my ruling and overrule
the objection. I think the objection goes to the weigit,
rather than admissibility. It is an official document, as
we all know, and should have the consideration of the Court.
So I will overrule the objection and let it be received
in evidence.
MR. SEEL: We have nothing further.
THE COURT: You may step down.
(Witness excused)
JAMES GOODEN, ealledas a witness and having been duly sworn,
testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. CASNAm:
Q. Give your name to the court reporter.
A. James Gooden.
Q. Where do you live?
A. 124 East Monument, Jackson, Mississippi.
Q. How long have you lived in Jackson?
A. Since 1925.
Q. For whom do you now work?
149
Q.
A.
Q-
A,
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A,
o.
A.
Q.
A.
A.
Are you now working or are you retired?
No, I am now retired.
What have you done in the way of working while you have
lived here in Jackson?
I taught science and mathematics at Lanier High. School;
of Lanier High School
I was principal; I was principal and teacher of an
elementary school: j I was director of colored schools until
retirement.
When did you retire?
In *6l.
Professor, I believe you are a member of the Negro race?
That is correct, isn’t it?
Yes.
And did white pupils or Negro pupils attend the Lanier
school at which you taught and were principal?
They did not.
Which race attended that school?
The Negro race.
Did any white pupils attend that school?
No.
Professor Gooden, while you were connected with the schools
of Jackson Municipal Separate School----Strike that.
What year did you first become associated with the
schools of the Jackson Municipal Separate School District?
1925.
150
q . Did you remain connected with that school system all the way
from 1925 until 1961?
A. Continually, yes.
ft. During that period of time, Professor Gooden, did you have
any occasion to attend any conferences or meetings of
superintendents or other educators?
A. I attended the American Teachers Association, attended the
school administrators * meetings, the National School Adminis
trators .
ft. Where would that meeting be held?
A. Atlantic City.
How often did you attend that meeting?
Every year from 1951 until I retired.
And that is the meeting of school administrators from all over
the nation? Is that correct?
That is correct.
Did Dr. Kirby Walker, the superintendent of the Jackson
schools, attend the same conference?
He did.
ft. Professor Gooden, what is your educational background? Give
us your education and any degrees.
A. Elementary school in Madison County, where I was bom. I did
high school and college in Alcorn A & M College. I did
my undergraduate— I did graduate work at Northwestern, where
I received a Master of Science in Education,
ft. Where is Northwestern located?
A ........... - • .
151
A* In Illinois. Evanston, Illinois.
Q. What degree did you receive from Northwestern in Illinois?
A. Master of Science In Education.
Q. Do you have any other educational training?
A. No, none other than that.
Q. Then you became associated with the schools in Jackson
District and have been there from 1925 until 1961?
Yes.
Professor Gooden, as a matter of fact during this tenure of
duty with the Jackson schools, do gtou know of any incidents in
which members of both the Negro and white races have attended
the same school?
I don't know of any.
Based on your experience in these schools and your training,
would you give the Court your judgment as to whether the
races attending separate schools is good or bad or better or
worse than if they were integrated?
Well, if I judge by the progress that seems to have been
made, |t Beems that it was a serious handicap. I don't know,
I can't say whether it was good or whether it was bed because
I didn't have the comparative tests, but I know the Jackson
public schools did make considerable progress. When I came
into the Jackson public schools, we had about 16 teachers.
There were no graduates, no college graduates. When I retired
there were more than four hundred in the publio colored
schools and all of them were college graduates, and from
152
some of the best schools in the country. And to my knowledge,
they did a very excellent Job,
Nov, the basis on which I am making that statement,
I listened to these partial reports j when I came In they
were making these reports. And what I have observed during
these years, I don't know whether we have any basis for
determining whether the Negro IQ is less than that of anybody
else, but one thing that always disturbed, me, that we
worked on and we are still working with, the great gap that
I rediscovered in the Jackson public schools came about as a
result of the readiness of the children who came to us.
About prior to 15 years ago, the children who came to us in the
first grade — I mean Negro children — they entered as
pre-primer, and they stayed in the pre-primer for one year
and then they moved up to the first grade. Then many of them
were not able to move on out of the first grade. We made
some surveys and we discovered that the reason for this was
that the child's readiness was not determined — that is, when
he entered school, he was not actually ready for school. Hie
teacher had an unusually difficult problem trying to get
those children ready.
We still have those problems. Now, I don't know what
that — That's not making any charge on anybody, but somehow
he lacked the basic experiences that would be needed to begin
school at the level at which the schools were pitched. And
that has been the problem.
152
t o , vhat I was about to state, it seems to me
that once he is in school, the gap that ve find
between these two groups does not widen; it is beginning to
narrow, but the gap that w© have begins, it seems when the
child enters school; and so I am of the opinion that there
is an opportunity for the Negro to move right along if he
wants to.
Q. In your opinion, based upon your training and experience,
do you think that the attendance by the white and Negro
pupils of this district at separate schools is better or
worse than having them in the same school?
Twenty years ago the attendance represented about 50 percent
of the school population, and at that time we had a
compulsory school law. Bxe holding power of those who
entered school was less than sixty perooat, or not more than
sixty percent, — that is, with the drop-outs.
When X retired, the holding pQw6rhad increased very
consid ecabljr — - that is, the holding power now for the
Negro schools are almost equal to that of the white schools,
if not equal. That is the reason why we have to build and
continue to build, not because of a rapid increase of birth,
but increase of the holding powers so I have seen the holding
power increase in the schools.
MR. BEIL: Could we enter :an objection? It is very
interesting, but X don't know if it was responsive to the
question. I believe counsel's question, was whether or not
Mr. Gooden felt that the better education could be bobtained
In the Hegro and white schools, and we didn’t get an
answer to that.
*EHE COURT: Well, that Is the question, and I didn't
gather what — He can answer if he can what his opinion is,
as to whether it is better to have them separated or whether
it is better to have them integrated.
I don't have any basis to determine whether it is better or
not.
Do you have an opinion on the matter?
I have an opinion.
What is your opinion?
My opinion is that with the type of teachers that we have,
with the training that the teachers have, and with the diffi
culty and the problems of basic experiences that the teachers
have, and due to the parent-teacher relationship that must be
developed, that he has a better chance of making the greater
progress at this time In the Jackson public schools. — I'm
not talking about the country as a whole; I'm talking about what
I know of the Jackson public schools — because there is a
great deal of work that has to continually go on between
the par&tit and the teacher.
Do I understand you to say it is your opinion that it is better
for the Negro to attend the schools with other Negroes and
the whites to attend the schools with other whites?
Yes, based on three or four basic needs. A student needs
155
to achieve; he needs to belong; he needs to be loved. And
those things. I think he can get more of that vith
the group, if the group is prepared to train him, than he would
otherwise.
Q,. By the ’'group," you mean the group of his own race?
A. Yes.
Q. Again I want to make certain that I understand your testimony.
It is your opinion it is better in the Jackson schools,
Jackson Municipal Separate School District, for the pupils of
0 this district to attend the schools attended by members of
their own race?
A, Unless I could change the attitude of the white person
toward him. That is an important factor, to me.
q . j\a i correct in sucsnarizing your testimony when I say it is
your opinion it is better they attend the separate schools?
A. Unless the white man’s attitude, feeling, toward me could
^ be changed. In other words, if he doesn’t like me, I think
it would be a bad thing for me to send my six year old
child to him.
Q. Professor, based on your observations and experiences,
is there any difference in the likes are! dislikes of the
members of these two races, things that they like and don t
like, are they charag^WUtics of the races?
A. Ch, yes, as a natural result.
n. What is your observation as to the differences in the
156
characteristics of these two races?
Well, it is pretty difficult for me to name any specific
things. Now, we have some people among the, in the race
that likes anything anybody else likes, and there are some
others who like some things that others don'1 like.
We have our characteristics. I can’t point those out
exactly.
And you have no connection with the public school system in
Jackson at this time at all?
Hone whatever.
And you are giving this testimony based on your experience
with the school district?
A. Over a period of 35 years.
Q. Are you proud or not so happy with the school system of this
district that tpu were associated with?
A. Yes. I ’m a part of it.
Q. Are you proud of it?
A. I ’m proud of it. I think the Jackson public school system is
one of the best in the country.
Q. Does that include the schools attended by Negroes, as well
as those attended by whites?
A. Yes. I ’m talking about both systems, because I think of
both as a system. We have two groups, but I don’t think of
it as a separate system for each, for Negroes and for whites.
Q. Is there any basic difference in the facilities or the courses
offered in the schools attended by Negroes and whites?
*v, ■
A. There Is no basic difference.
Q. You know that of your own knowledge?
A. I know that, because all the courses that arc napped are
gone over with the joint groups.
Q,. Professor Gooden, in selecting your teachers for the
schools under your control, did you have a free hand in
getting the best teachers available?
We, the principals and director, was the final determining
factor of the person who was elected by the board to teach
in Jackson public schools. No teacher was edeleted by the
board and handed down to the public schools.
And you, together with the pri ncipals under you, had
a free hand in Ejecting the teachers for which you were
responsible?
That's right.
You recommended those to Mr. Walker, and he in turn to the Board
of Trustees?
Those that we turned down did not get elected.
And those you recommended did get elected?
Bid get elected.
And that was true during your entire term?
It was true during my entire tern.
If a stranger was riding through Jackson in the summertime
and no students were at the schools, could he tell which one
was attended by colored students and which by whites?
A. With the exception of one or two of the old schools, he
could not.
158
Q. If he went throu^i the schools themselves, could he tell?
A, Bo. I am saying that because I have been, through every
school in Jackson.
You have been through every school?
Every school in Jackson.
And I believe you said you were proud of the school system?
Very proud of the Jackson public school system.
Does that apply to the buildings themselves?
It applies to the whole system.
It applies to the curriculum and the education?
Applies to the curriculum, applies to the personal relationships,
it applies to the relationships between the two groups, the
two races.
Professor Gooden, is it your opinion that under the present
system the members of the Begro race are receiving the very
finest education that is available under the facilities and
means of this district?
A. I think so.
Q. And the same thing would apply to the white people?
A. I think so. Mr. Young there is a product of the Jackson
public schools.
MR. G A M ADA.: I think that is all.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
B3f MR. LEONARD:
Q. I vas very interested in one statement you made. You
said there were four things a child needs: to achieve,
to belong, to be loved, and vhat was the fourth?
A. To achieve, to belong, to be loved, and to be wanted. And
I think that to be wanted is an important one. There are
some things I could say that I wouldn’t want to say here, but
that to be wanted is very Important.
Q. Now, tell me one thing, Professor Gooden: this morning you
heard Mrs. Evers? Were you here this morning?
A . No, I wasn’t here this moral ng.
Q,. Mrs. Evers was on the stand, and she testified that she was
number two in her class in high school. And I ’m talking
now about the first of your four things. In these
cases there has been a great deal of talk about taking the
superior Negro and — and, believe, me, we don’t question
but there are many superior Negroes — and putting them over
into a white school. And I would like to get your thought
on this, if I can. Assuming that you have a Negro in an
existing Negro school who would achieve hi^ily, would be
the leader of his class, is he the sort of person you think
should be moved over?
A. In the first place, the best psychologist, among the best
psychologists, don't agree to putting him even in a separate
group in his own school.
160
Q, That’s part of your second statement, that he wants to
belong, that he needs to belong, In terms of his
instruction and his education.
A. Yes, that is part of it. That’s the reason why you don’t
want to take him away. The psychologists say that. You don’t
take him away from this small group because you don't want
to have a breach between him and the other person. Some
psychologists are saying now that there are no superior
people, that you are Just superior in some things.
Q. in other words, his relationship is really one with his
entire group.
A* Yes.
Q. And in this sense is there any relationship between the pupil
and the teacher?
Definitely.
Or Just —
Definitely. That's what I was trying to say. You see the
school — we conceive the school as being a function or part
of the home, the extending function of the home. When a
child goes to school, the child continues to carry on in that
function. He learns to talk at home, he learns to walk at
home, he learns to eat at home, learns those before he is
six. How, that's where this problem of disparity often
arises. But that continues when he goes to school. When
you're teaching him English, you're still teaching him to
talk. So that relationship, that extending of the home
l6l
influence, is still prevailing.
And the more you cen extend that then, I take it, the more
closely the teacher can relate to the pupil, the more
e a s ily the educational process will go?
And the more nearly you are likely to expand his ability.
And the more nearly you can take advantage of his ability?
Yes.
Were you here at the time Dr. Barker pointed out the
achievement of the Negro schools of Jackson were even
hi#ier than any anticipated figures?
I’ve seen those figures — that is, over the years.
You agree the schools have been actually doing that kind of
Job, from your personal observation?
I will tell you this: There are two or three — I don’t
remember — I wish I could call their names — maybe from
the University of Michigan — but two of the larger universities
of the North pointed out recently that they were beginning to
bid for the graduates of the Negro schools of the South,
rather than the Negro schools of the North, because those
students that come from the South, he says, made better
students; and the reason for it is that very fact. I don’t
know whether you call it over-compensating, but that does
happen. Those who do have ability do shoot up; they do
advance.
. Professor Gooden, let m make & statement to you, and I ’d likeQ
to see if you agree with me.
One of the chief counsel for the MAC?, Jack
Greenberg, wrote a book about schools, and in that book he
stated that approximately 20 times as many high school
graduates, Negro graduates, from the South achieved the
minimum college entrance board levels than did the Negroes
from the mixed schools of the North. Is that what you're
saying?
A. That is essentially what I'm saying.
Q. In other words, you believe this is really a product of
school systems, and a product of the type of school system?
A. It is aproduct of the type of teaching that we are getting.
You see, Negro teachers are pretty hard; they drive
pore tty herd.
Q. They have to, don't they?
A. They have to start at the beginning and drive hard. And as
a result, they get that kind of result.
Q. But they get It and, as I recall what you said, at the same time
they develop the holding power of the student and don't have the
drop-out that they have elsewhere?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Thank you very much.
GROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. YOUNG:
Q. Mr. Gooden, did I understand you correctly to say during the
course of your testimony that the general courses offered by
the Jackson public schools are the same for Negroes as they
are for white?
A. Yea, sir.
Q. How, if I were to tell you there has been testimony here
today that seme courses were offered to whites that are not
offered to Negroes and some courses offered to Negroes and
not offered to whites, would you agree?
A* Yes.
Q. Then your first statement isn't true?
A. Yes, my first statement is true and that statement is true.
Any course will be offered to any school, whether it's white
or colored, that you have enough people who want that course.
Q. How do you determine whether or not they want it?
A. By the number of persons that make request for it.
Q. Does this go for the ROTC?
A. No. The school doesn't have anything to do with the ROTC.
Q.. Was ROTC available to white students in Jackson?
A. Yes, but that's the government makes that available} the
school doesn't make it available.
16 5
Q. But it was not available to the Negroes?
A. No. When we attempted to make it available, the government
wasn't making any more available.
Q. Now, when you say you offer the subjects that people want,
am ^understand you to mean you ask the students what they
want?
A* No. Students each year at the beginning of the year the
student fills out — that's at the close of the year, about
now, they will fill out a list indicating courses he wants
whether those courses are offered or not. In other words,
Ail the courses are offered, lhose offered In white schools
and those offered in Negro schools, they are there, and the
student check's the courses he wants. Those lists, when they
are completed, are taken home and they are signed by their
parents. When they are finalised they are signed by their
parents. And they are brought back to the school, and the
course of study that will be offered during that year or
period will be determined by those forms that were filled
out.
Q. Do I understand you correctly then to say that unless a
large number of pupils make application for a certain course
A, — No, not a large number. It’s ten or maybe seven
or ten, something around ten. Enough for a class.
Q. But if there were not at least ten students who wanted
that course, although available at another school, then it
would not be available to that student?
A. Well, there are courses if they are not available In one
school, could be transferred to another school.
q . what about courses available only in white schools?
A. Only in white schools?
Q That*s right.
A. I don’t know what those courses are.
q . There has been some testimony here today that there are
165
A. — Well, as I say, I don’t know what they are, so I couldn’t
tell what you would do about those.
Q. I believe you said in talking about the schools that the
schools themselves — and by that, I mean buildings —
were all practically equal? Is that so? Is that your
testimony?
A. Equal?
Yes. Substantially the same.
Well, when you say "equal,,! it depends on what you mean when
you say "equal."
Q,. I said substantially the same.
A. Some of them are superior, if you are going to talk about
size.
Mr. Gooden, are you aware of the fact that all of the
Negro schools do not have gymnasiums?
Have what?
Do all the Negro schools have gymnasiums?
All of the high schools.
Are the, c o g n a t i o n g o l e m s and auditorium or separate
gymnasiums?
You mean gyaatoriums?
Do you have separate gymnasiums in the Negro and white
schools and separate auditoriums, or are they combined?
Ihey are combi ® d in two of the high schools, and they are
separate in one.
What about the white high schools?
166
I don*t know.
I thought you said you were thoroughly familiar----
You said all the gymnasiums. We don’t have gymnasiums in the
elementary schools.
What about the white high schools?
Thej have them. We have the gymatorium. In the Hill School
we have a gymatorium, and Lanier School, but the plans are
now to build a gymnasium. The plans are already set now for
the gyranasiiaa in both of those schools.
You have only one high school now which has a separate
gymnasium and separate auditorium?
That's right.
But what about the white schools.
They all have them, I suppose.
They «3J have separate gymnasiums and separate auditoriums,
right?
I suppose.
You made the statement it was your experienceof working over a
number of years in the Jackson public school system that the
children who came to school in the first grade were not ready.
Is that the term you used?
Yes.
They were not ready?
Yes.
Would I be correct in assuming this was due largely to the fact
familiesthat they cams from/that had not themselves had too much
167
educational opportunity or too many educational opportunities?
A. Either that, or lack of interest.
Q. Would you agree that there is a disparity between the
educational attainment of Negro parents and that of whites?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you say that that of the Negro parents was less than
the whites?
Yes, I would.
Would you further agree thak this gap had been closed in
recent years?
This gap of the child entering school?
No, I mean the parents themselves. Don’t you agree now that
Negro parents on the whole —
It '3 closing.
It’s closing?
It’s closing. The schools themselves have been in fact
closing that gap.
Now, Mr. Gooden, I believe you say you were a product of the
schools of the State of Mississippi?
A. Yes.
Q,. Public school and college of Mississippi?
A. Yes.
Q. And that you also went to Northwestern University?
A. Biat’s rl$it.
168
q . — where you obtained your master's degree.
A, That's right.
Q» Were you able to compete vith those persons at Northwestern?
A. I finished in a Glass of 117, and I was, according to the
director of the school, I was in the upper ten percent of
my class.
Q, Were there any other Negroes who were able to compete?
A. There vara no other Negroes in that class.
Q. But you were able to compete?
A. I was in the upper ten percent.
Q. Now, the reason I asked you that is —
A. — I could show you that letter, if you want to see it.
q . i*ii take your word for it. My reason for asking that
question was, there has been some Indication in the
testimony here today that Negroes don't have the mental
capacity as the white people. In other words, that the
Negro child does not have the native ability to comprehend
and learn as to toe white people. New, either you are the
exception to that rule, or the rule isn't true. Now, based
on your own experiences in public schools, based on your own
experiences vith Negro children over the years, is it your
considered opinion ithat Negro students are inherently
inferior to white children?
A. NO.
Q. That's all.
A. let me elaborate on that. You can't measure ability unless
you have a background of experience upon which to measure
that ability. Now, if the person exposed to the test
doesn’t have the background of experience, then we will not be
able to determine on the paper whether he has it or not.
Now, let me give you this: At Northwestern, a psychology -
a Negro professor who was the top man in his class was taking
a PHES in Psychology. He went down In Chicago, and part of Ills
project was to make a test to find out the mental ability of
children down In Chicago. He made up the test. Part of thatpap
test was — That was the time when multiple choice was just
coming out. — Part of that test was a multiple choice
test, and he had on there, "Milk comes from a factory; it
comes from a bottle; it comes from a cow; it comes from a
so and so," and every child that was b o m In Chicago missed
cow. Every one. Every one on that test, some 18 or 20,
every one that was born in Chicago. This was an intelligence
test now. Every one that went from Mississippi or somewhere
else in the South answered that test question correctly.
Now, if you are going to use that as a basis to determine
who was the most intelligent, you certainly go for the South
as more Intelligent; so you have got to have experience and
background in order to determine this Inate ability that you
have back there.
So I don’t agree that one is inferior.
According to the explanation you have just given, It is your
170
opinion that these standardized tests such as the ones
introduced in evidence today are not necessarily an exact
measurement of the child*s aptitude and ability? Is that
correct?
A. Ho, they cannot be.
Q,. ®iank you.
pteE COURT: Very well, you may step down.
(Witness excused)
THE COURT: Court will recess until nine o ’clock tomorrow
morning.
(Whereupon the court was recessed until the following morning)
(Tuesday, May 19, 1964, at 9*00 A.M. the trial was resumed)
MR. WATKINS: We*d like to call Mr. William S.
Mllborne.
WILLIAM S. MHB0RNE, called as a witness and having been duly sworn,
testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
m MR. WATKINS:
Q. Please state your name.
A. William S. Mllborne.
Q. Where do you live, Mr. Mllborne?
A. Louisville, Kentucky.
Q. Of what state are you a native, sir?
171
A. Indiana.
What is your educational background?
It's all in the State of Indiana. Graduated from a small
town elementary school; did my high school work at the
Academy, Valparaiso University; one year at Purdue, AB Degree
from Oakland City College; Master of Arts Degree from Indiana
University.
Have you had any connection with educational associations?
I have been connected with the North Central Association
of Colleges and Schools and with the Southern Association
of Colleges and Schools.
Have you held any office in either of those?
I've held the office of President of the Southern Association.
Have you in the past held any position with the public
schools of Louisville, Kentucky?
The first part of your question I missed.
Have you in the past held any positions with the public schools
of Louisville, Kentucky?
I have held positions with the public schools of Lodsville
from 1928 to 1962, during which time, with the exception of
six months, I was at one high school, three years as assistant
principal and the rest of the time as the principal.
As principal of what school?
A. Louisville Male High School. M-a-l-e.
Q. During that time, Mr. Milborae, did you also hold any position
172
vith the 01 ty government of Louisville, Kentucky?
A. I was president of the Louisville Board of Aldermen for eight
years,
Q. What eight years were those?
A. 1953 to 1961.
Q. Please tell the Court, if you will, something about the
size and nature of Male Hi#i School of which you were prin
cipal for so long.
A. In size, approximately 1400 students, varying somewhat
from year to year. Primarily a college preparatory school,
an old school dating from l8l6j a school with a
lot of tradition, a lot of pride, a lot of prestige.
Q. Was that school originally segregated? And by that, I mean
was it attended exclusively by white students?
A. It was segregated until 1954. I think the Fall of *54, as I
recall it.
Q. Was it desegregated at that time?
A. It was.
Q. Before it was desegregated, tell the Court, please, sir,
whether many or few of the students went from that school
to college.
A. A very high percentage, for a public school, of the graduates
went to college, mostly to eastern colleges.
Q. After desegregation did that situation remain the same or did
it change?
A. It has changed radically.
To what extent? In what way?
Well, at the present, relatively few of the graduates go to
college.
V ' « y ? w ..j i * * ».1 J ‘ * v • '* f \
Prior to desegregation, did the students, graduates, of that
school win many scholarships?
A rather high number of scholarships. In years the total value
would amount to more than a hundred thousand dollars annually.
Were those merit scholarships?
That included merit scholarships, some of the national merit
college board examinations.
What is a merit scholarship?
It is a scholarship provided by a foundation. It is a
competitive scholarship in which the students who are
competing, or applying, take a set examination. It Is national-
wide. It provides full tuition, full expenses, to the winners
of the scholarships.
to
Were those ^scholarships/what you would consider the top
colleges in the country?
I believe they are so considered.
Can you give me a few examples of those colleges to which the
students usually got scholarships?
Eastern schools. They can use them in many schools. The
scholarships are granted to the student to be applied tothe
school of his choice.
Were there any southern schools involved, such as Washington
& lee?
A. Oh, yes.
q . n o w , what has the situation been with respect to scholarships
since desegregation of Male High School?
A. Hie number of applicants for the merit scholarships has
greatly dwindled. I do not recall in the past several years
of one of the applicants winning a scholarship.
Q. Can you recall of a scholarship having been won in the past
five years?
Well, I have to trust my memory. I do not.
Were there any serious problems with reference to
discipline in the sohool prior to desegregation?
We had the usual run of secondary school problems of
discipline, nothing serious.
Has the situation with reference to discipline changed any
since desegregation?
It has changed markedly to the point that the problem of
discipline takes up a great deal of time of the school
administrators and of the teachers, a disproportionate part
of the time that they must give to maintain proper decorum
in the classrooms and building. That is time taken from
actual teaching.
Q. Do I understand you to say that if the teachers were not
involved in problems of discipline, they could use that time
in teaching the students?
. Oh, yes, definitely.A
175
q . with reference to discipline, I'd like for you to give me some
of the type of problems involved. Did they involve
stealing?
A. It is a difficult thing to describe, but it involved such
»*><ngn as student conduct in the hallways. Before the
integration or desegregation we had the usual hum or buss in
the hallways. After that, after we got a considerable number
of Hegroea, there was much loud, loose talking in the hallways,
mirth fitting, particularly among girls, much conduct in the
classroom itself that a teacher couldn't condone and carry
r- - • ♦ ■ ■ . ■ - >.*'•. %» ■ v -a- ■ c * v 'f /• ■ & » . f' ‘jt
on a class. T h a w was considerable petty stealing that we had
not had before.
Q» What about cheating?
A. Cheating increased markedly.
q , Tdd desegregation have any effect on your ability to keep a
better, more experienced teachers, they became disheartened,
disgusted. They transferred to other schools in the city system,
or they sought employment in other school systems, or they Quit
the profession. We found it more difficult to keep aad
q . Mr. Milboroa, was there any change in the general personnel
of the school pupils after desegregation? £*$r that I mean, did
they incline to become predominantly white or predominantly
good faculty in the school?
A. Yes, it had a decided effect. Of course, some of the
maintain a good faculty
176
Negro after desegregation took place?
A. Veil, at the first ve had only a token number of Negro
students — 55, as I recall it — who apparently had
been handpicked, and we got along quite well, although
they did not live up to what ve thought they should
academically.
Excuse me, Vhen you say "handpicked," do you mean they ware
students of unusually high IQ's?
They were considerably above the average.
At the time,when you were telling me how they performed in
Male High School, how did they perform?
I said that they disappointed us in their academic
achievement; based on the grades that they had had before
they came to us and their IQ's, we expected more than we got.
Were those 55 handpicked students followed by other Negro
students?
Yes, but not by handpicked. Little by little we got the
mine-run of students from the junior high schools.
What were the natures of those students?
A. Well, they were lower,academic calibre.
Q. What general effect did desegregation have on the quality
of that school as a teaching instrumentality?
A. Well, there was a general erosion of the scholarship from
a high academic standard to a relatively low standard. Ifrere
was a lowering of the disclphhe in the school. There was a
distinct lowering of the tone and moral fiber of the school.
177
As the Negroes moved in, the better white students moved outj
so the percentage of white decreased, and the percentage of
colored students increased. And that process is still going
on*
Q. Mr. Milborne, was the desegregation of the Louisville school
about which you have testified on a voluntary basis or as a
result of a court order?
A. It was on a voluntary basis, but it followed the Topeka court
Q. Have you had occasion to study and observe the effects of deseg
regation in the public schools of other cities other than
Louisville, Kentucky?
I have seen it in a number of schools. I have seen it in
Washington, Philadelphia, Gary, Indiana, Chicago, Cleveland,
Indianapolis, Kansas City.
Please tell the Court whether or not the results of desegre
gation in those public schools in those cities was substantially
as you have described it in Louisville, Kentucky*
It has been my observation that they follow the sane general
pattern of gradual changing from white schools to integrated
schools, and then more or less back toward de facto segregation
again.
Q* Mr. Milborne, after your years of experience with this problem
of desegregation, have you reached any conclusion as to why
we have this problem with the Negroes in a mixed school?
A. Well, from my observation and the study I have done, I am
178
convinced that the problem is caused by inate racial
differences.
Q. Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. LEONARD:
Q. Mr. Milborne, you have given us a description essentially of
what has happened to the scholarship standards of the white
student. In your observation of the schools in the City of
Louisville, would you say that with respect to the Negro
students who moved over into Male High School that they were
becoming better educated than they had previously?
MR. BELL: Could we ask that this be carried on in
something of the manner of a professional court hearing and
the lawyers not lead’ this witness, who obviously knows his
lines very well? They have been leading right along, and
counsel for interveners now is probably giving us a probably
classic example of a leading question.
THE COURT: Yes, that is leadirg.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, the gentleman i s ----
THE COURT: --- Rephrase the question.
MR. LEONARD: I will withdraw that question and reframe
it.
Q. Do you have any familiarity with the Negro students who came
over to Male High School? Did you observe their academic
progress?
A, Yes
Q. Do you have any basis at all for determining whether or not
that was greater or lesser progress than they had previously
made?
A. I do not*
«
Q. In your opinion and under your observations, did they get a better
education by transferring to Male High School?
A. I do not see how they were Improving educationally because,
by and large, they had cone from rather excellent schools.
Q. Are you saying that Negro schools of Louisville were also
excellent before 19f&?
A. Yes, sir. My observation Is that they were considerably above
the average.
Q. Would you say they were above the average, or would you say
that that average was above the figure, type of performance
which you have described in Male High School after desegregation?
A. I'm not sure I get your question.
Q. You stated, I believe, that the Negro higi schools of Louisville
before 195^ were excellent academically? Is that correct?
A. I stated that.
Q. Would you say that they were as high or higher than the
academic standard of Male High School after desegregation?
A. I don't have sufficient evidence to give you a valid
answer to that question*
CJ. Do you have an opinion?
A. It is my opinion that the educational opportunities of the
179
180
Negroes who came to Male High School are not improved by their
coming to a desegregated school.
Q. Thank you.
THE COURT: Any cross examination?
MR. BEIL: No, we arenot going to offer any cross
examination of this witness; and as to the previous witnesses,
we object to all of the testimony introduced and move to strike
on the basis it is totally irrelevant to the only issues
which the courts have timeand time again indicated are before
this Court in this type of action, and that is whether or not
the schools of Jackson, Mississippi, are segregated. The
situation in Louisville, therefore, is irrelevant.
Moreover, the testimony of this witness could be
expected, and from what I understand from leaders in
Louisville, his position is well known •—
MR. WATKINS: — Your Honor, we object to his testifying
into the record in this manner, stating what he k n o w about
this witness.
MR. HELL: I think I can —
MR. WATKINS: — Well, I’m going to object to your testi
fying what you have been told about this witness in Louisville,
Kentucky. That is highly improper.
MR. BELL: I ’d prefer you wait until I finish my objection.
THE CODRT: Very well, Gentlemen.
Mr. Jordan, will you read the last objection?
(The objection stated by Mr. Bell was read by the court reporter)
l8l
THE COURT: I will exclude it from consideration as
having any valuation, any probative force, one way or the
other, but I will let him state it for the record, and I
overrule the objection.
MR. BELL: I was trying to make two points: one,
that the situation in Louisville on the issues in this
case is totally Irrelevant for any purposej second, that
the Louisville desegbegation effort over the past few years
has been more or leas of a model, in which those who are
proponents of desegregation - and there are many - feel that
Louisville Is an excellent example, while other
people who feel Louisville is one more example of the
Ineffectiveness of desegregation as improving the overall
educational situation -— I was pointing out that this
witness is generally known as one of those who opposed itj
and therefore, for that additional reason, the testimony Is
irrelevant to the issues before this Court.
THE COURT: I will overrule the objection of counsel
for plaintiff and overrule the motion at this time to exclude
this testimony, and I will disregard his remarks as to what
the position of this man was, whether opposed or favorable
or what-not j but if he has any rebuttal testimony he can put
on , of course, he can put that on at that time. But his
statement as to what is well known, I cannot regard as being
testimony.
You may step down. (Witness excused)
182
MR. GANNADA: If the Court please, the Intervenors have a
witness that must leave shortly after lunch, and it is
requested that they put their witness on out of order. We
have no objection if it meets with the approval of the
Court.
THE COURT* Very well.
MR. LEONARD: At this time I call Dr. R. Travis Osborne.
MR. BELL: Before the examination starts, let me make
an objection for the plaintiffs to the testimony of this
witness, insofar as it is aimed at supporting the contentions
of the Intervenors. We feel these contentions have been
raised before, have been paassd on by the courts, and have been
not approved.
If you will pass on that objection, I would like to make
another one.
THE COURT: You wanted to say something further?
MR. BELL: Yes, Your Honor. Moreover, this
particular witness has testified in some of the other efforts
to show that Negroes are inferior and that segregated schools
are justifiable under the constitution; and in an effort to
save the time of this Court, plaintiffs would move that the
testimony that he has provided earlier be admitted in this
case and spare us all the long hours of repetition which
otherwise would be inevitable,
THE COURT: Well, I will overrule the objection and let
the -witness testify because they are entitled to make their
record. It may be at a later date I would exclude it, but he
is entitled to get it into the record, and In order to keep
my rulings as I go I will overrule the objection.
DR. R. T. OSBORNE, called as a witness by the Interveners and
having been duly sworn, testified as fellows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
B3T MR. LEONARD:
Q. Please state your name.
A. R. T. Osborne.
Q. What is your position?
A. Pofessor of Psychology.
Q. Where?
A* University of Georgia.
Q. Do you hold any other position with that university?
A. Director of Student Guidance Center.
Q. For how long have you been there?
A. I've been there since 193*7•
Q. What are your academic qualifications, Doctor?
A, Undergraduate work at University of Florida; graduate work
through the PHD at the University of Georgia.
Q. And what was your doctorate taken in?
A. Educational psychology.
Q. Have you worked in that field since that time?
A. With the exception of four years during World War Two.
m
Q. I yonder If you would raise your voice a little?
Are you a member of any professional socle ties?
A* American Psychological Association; Southeastern Psycho
logical Association; and Georgia Psychological Association.
Q. Are you a licensed psychologist?
A, For the State of Georgia, yes
Q. Havd you published any professional works In your field?
A. Yes, I have, several.
Q. Would you state the nature of those publications, generally,
giving us any illustrations you wish?
A. In general they have to do with evaluation of achievement,
mental ability, graduate students, EMbllc school child ren.
Anything on testing?
Mostly have to do with mental measurement or psychometrics.
What does the word "psychometricsi! mean*
Mental measurement.
And that is of an individual or a student or people
generally?
A. It may be of an individual or a group.
Q, What forms of measurement are there which can be taken?
What forms of mental measurement can be made with any
reasonable reliability?
A. The most reliable are the Individual intelligence teste.
Q. Far what is that a predictor?
A. It predicts best scholastic achievement or school type
achievement and learning.
185
Q. Does it have a hi#i or a low correlation with subsequent
scholastic achievement?
A. It is probably Hie best index of later scholastic
achievement as measured by public school grades.
Q. is there any way also of measuring the achievement, as such?
A. Yes. The usual standardized test of the three R*s, reading,
arithmetic, language skills.
Can these achievements be broken down in the testing process
at all? In other words, can you take various components of a
person’s learning and test them separately?
A person’s achievement, yes. You mean reading?
Yes.
A. Arithmetic and language skills? Yes.
Q. And even within those, is it possible to break them down any
further?
A. Yea. You lose reliability when you break them down i to
shorter ----
Q., To what extent can you measure the subsequent achievement
against a person’s original aptitudes as shown by an
intelligence test?
A. I don’t understand.
Q. To what extent. You stated there was a correlation
between scholastic achievement and Hie figures gotten on
intelligence tests. How do you determine that?
A. It is statistical process of relating the predictor or
the ability scores to a later crlterium achievement score.
186
Could be school grades or could be test scores.
MR. IEONAJRD: At tills time I would like to hand to the
Court and have marked as intervener’s exhibit a statement
of the qualifications of Dr. Osborne and of his professional
publications in the field of testing; and I offer Dr. Osborne
as an expert in the field in which he has ^nst mentioned his
qualifications.
THE COURT: Let it be marked and received in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Intervener’s Exhibit No. 1)
Q. Have you ever taught in any public schools?
A. Yes.
Q,. Have you had any educational experience with classes beyond the
public school level?
Yes.
What is the total length of your teaching experience at this
point?
Prom ’36 until the present, except for four years I was in
the Navy.
If I said 24 years, would that be approximately correct?
A. That would be, approximately.
Q. In the course of your work at the University of Georgia, have
you been called upon to make any tests on a broad scale of
city system public schools?
A. I have been invited as a consultant to participate in the kind
of activity you mentioned.
Q. What city or cities?
187
A. Savannah, Georgia, is one.
Q. Will you tell me what your function was with respect to the
testing of the children in Savannah, Georgia?
A. Mainly consultant to the superintendent,, principals, and the
advisory committee on the evaluations, to help them plan
and implement a longitudinal testing program for the
children in the county.
Q.. what is a longitudinal testing program?
A. Well, an on-going program 'which would be repeated every year,
rather than just a single cross-sectional program given one
time and then used and not repeated the following year.
q . would it follow the same children throu^i the various years?
A. It may or may not. For example, some schools would test
alternate grades every year. Eventually they would, test the
same children, but it may or may not.
Q. What test did you recommend?
A. I didn’t recommend, The school system selected and agreed upon
the testing program for this county.
q . You participated in the discussion?
A. That’s right, and advised.
Q. What test was selected?
A. The California test battery, achievement and mental ability.
q . Would you describe that to us for a moirent?
A. It’s a standard paper and pencil group test of achievement in
the basic areas — reading, language skills, arithmetic, and
a test of mental ability.
188
Q. When you say it is a general or standard test, do you mean it
is used on any scale broader than Savannah or the State of
Georgia?
A. It is a i national test, standardized on a national norm.
Q. When you say "national," "standardized,' what do you mean
by that?
A. The test has been given to a large number of people throughout
the country, and from the results normative data have been
established.
Q,. Are the normative data based on all persons who have taken
the test or based upon a particular local test, as in Savannah?
A. No. Ohe normative data are representative of the nation as
a -Whole, if that is claimed by the test publisher.
Q. Did you participate at all in the training of the
teachers who make the tests, or make the test yourself?
Did you take any part in your capacity as advisor?
A. I participated in the training of teachers who
administrered the tests, yes, sir.
Q. Did the teachers administer the tests?
A. Yes.
Q,. Over what period of time?
A. Well, the program was begun in April of *54.
Q. Is it continuing today?
A. Yes.
Q. Have the results of those tests been made available to you?
A. Ihey were, yes.
Q. Have you considered or studied or written or done anything with
those results?
A. Yes•
Q. What have you done?
A. A sursmary of the findings was published, without identifying
the school system.
Q. I show you at this time, Doctor Osborne ---- Allow me to have
this marked for identification.
(Same was marked as Intervener's Exhibit No. 2 for Identification)
Q. I show you Intervener's Exhibit 2 for Identification, which
is dated, purports to be a monograph entitled "Racial
Difference in School Achievement," by R. T. Osborne, and
ask you if this is the study to which you have Just referred?
&. Yes, that is.
Q. And this study is your work?
A. Yes.
Q. And it is based upon test results which have been made
available to you?
A. Yes.
MR . LEONARD: I offer the study into evidence at
this time.
USE CCXJRT: Let it be received in evidence.
(Intervenor's Exhibit No. 2 for Identification received in evidence)
MR. LEONARD: At this time I would like to put on toe
stand, without introducing in evidence, g ertain pages of
xyu
this report, which we have photographically enlarged.
If you would step down from the stand, please.
(Witness steps down)
Can you identify the chart which is presently on the easel?
Uhis is a chart from the monograph previously exhibited.
Will you tell us what it states or shows?
This is Figure 1, showing the average grade placements earned
on California Reading Test by white and Negro pupils —
Raise your voice.
*rhta is Figure 1 from the Monograph, shawl ng the average
grade placement earned on the California Reading Test by
white and Negro pupils tested in grades 6, 8, 10 and 12.
Q. Would you tell us what is meant by 'Vocabulary"? And "Comprehension?
Vocabulary is a sub-test that merely reflects a child*s
knowledge of words. Comprehension is his ability to under
stand written material, his understanding of written material.
Would you tell us what the distances or shapes of the lines
show that you have drawn on the chart?
In the first place, identify the lines. What are the four
lines you have in each case?
A. Well, the solid line is white boys, the dotted — heavy dotted
line is white girlsj Negro boys, (indicating) and Negro girls.)
Q. Now, will you tell us what the chart shows? Summarise for
us what each of the three boxes shows?
A. It shows the children tested originally,in grade 6 . The white
children were achieving about at normal grade level, and the
colored children in grads were on Vocabulary somewhat above
the 4th grade level.
This is easier to understand from one of the tables,
but graphically it is shown here. A difference of about
a year and a half in reading vocabulary achievement.
Q. Now, does the distance between the upper and the lower
sets of lines indicate an achievement difference between
the white and Negro children?
A • Yes.
Q. And does that difference — is that difference constant
throughout the years in which tests were made?
A. It is obvious from the graphs that there appears to be a
widening of that difference.
Q. Does that indicate a difference in rate of progress
or rate of learning with respect to vocabulary?
a . I would interpret it that way, yes.
Q. Your top one is the 12th grade?
A. Yes.
Q, Your difference In the 12th grade Is greater than your
difference in the 6th grade?
A. Yes.
Q. Is the same true of Reading Comprehension?
A. Yes, The hung? in the curve is a little different place, but
the overall picture is the same.
Q. Now, the upper two lines are white boys and girls, and the
lower two lines are Negro boys and girls?
A. Yes.
192
Q. And you have the sane divergent pattern in Beading Compre
hension as you had in Vocabulary?
A* Yes.
Q. And do you have the same total pattern?
A. Well, the total is the composite of these two.
Q. Dr. Osborne, if you would slip that to the bank, and take
Figure 2, which follows it. Would you explain Figure 2 for
us?
The same legend is used at the bottom of the page. This is a
test of arithmetic, arithmetical reasoning and fundamentals.
Q. What goes into Reasoning?
A. Problem-solving.
Q,. And Fundamentals is what?
A. Simple number combinations, adding and subtracting.
Q. In this particular chart, are the Reasoning and the Fundamentals
the same? In other words, is the pattern formed by the
progress of the white and Negro children the same for Reasoning
aa it is for Fundamentals?
A. No, there is a slight difference. I don't know how to account
for that, but the pattern — This hump in the curve could
be an artifact of poor te3t articulation or something,
but anyway the curves are not identical.
Q.. As the test results go, are your differences in Reasoning
greater, less than, or equal to your differences in
Fundamentals?
A. By inspection I would say the difference in Fundamentals is
193
greater.
Q. And is your rate of divergence during the school years the
same or different?
i
A. It would appear to be different.
Q. And they diverge more broadly on Fundamentals than they do
A. Yes.
Q,. Now, go to Figure 3. What does this chart show?
A. This is an average intelligence grade placements earned on
California Mental Maturity Test by white and Negro pupils
tested in grades, 6, 8, 10 and 12.
Now, is this the intelligence te3t you told us about
previously for predicting scholastic achievement?
That's right.
Would you describe the results which the chart shows?
The test is broken down into two parts: a Langiagc section and
Non-Language beet ion.
Can you explain those?
The language section usually involves problems of vocabulary,
questions involving vocabulary, and mental reasoning involving
words. The non-language section, as it indicates, does not
involve the reading skills.
How do you test if it doesn't involve reading skills?
Picture problems, space problems, perceptual organization, and
that kind of thing.
Q, Does this have any relation to the type of thing w© call
cultural and non-cultural?
A. If you could tag It, this would be more cultural than this
(indicating). This does involve language, vocabulary, and this
is the non-cultural, but still the child has to be able to
use a pencil, for example.
Q,. Are the patterns in Language and Non-language the same, as
your chart shows them?
the difference
A. No. The Language goes — -/seems to be greater here, and
the boys and girls seem to 3how greater differences on the
language section. In general, the boys do better on the
Non-Language section.than the girlsi the girls generally do
better on the language skills.
Q. Now,1 as between the white students and the Negro students,
do you have the same pattern?
A. That*s right.
Q. And that is shown in your total on the chart?
A. Yes, but not to a great extent. I mean, these are more
apparent than real, I would say.
Q. Now, would you tell me, you stated that tests of mental
maturity could be used to predict scholastic achievement.
Would you 3ay the tests which you show on Figure 5 would be a
reasonably accurate predictor of the results shown on charts
1 and 2?
A. Yes. The correlation, I*d say, between this test and the others.
195
Q. Do they demonstrate to any extent a pattern?
A. Yes, they do, but you -would naturally expect,this
test of mental maturity, you’d expect a pattern, to find
the same pattern here as you would with your achievement.
Q. Does the difference in mental maturity increase with age?
A. According to the figures here shown, there is an increase,
yes. I would say yes.
Q. Have you previously testified that the achievements diverge
more with age?
A. That is correct.
Q. Is that a correlation between the two?
A. No, that wouldn’t be a correlation, but that would Indicate
there is a similarity between the two, but not necessarily
a correlation.
Q. What are your overall conclusions in this study at this time?
A. They are indicated in the monograph.
Q. Well, without having you read them, if you will take the
stand again....
Number onei How many children approximately are involved
in this test?
A. It varied from — I think at the beginning there were over
three thousand. I don’t remember the figures. I would have to
look at the numbers.
Q. You have a chart?
A. Yes.
196
Q. Let me repeat the question. How large a student body was
used in making these tests?
A. In ’54 there were 1558 white children in the 6th grade,
952 Negro children in the 6th grade;
1206 white in the 8th, and 697 Negro in the 8th;
and 10th grade, 919 white children, and 460 Negro.
Q. Can you summarize for me in round figures?
A. About 4,040.
Q. About 4,000 total. Over how long a period were these
tests made?
Now, that didn't involve — I mean, this study didn't involve
all of those children, because some of them dropped out
and transferred and moved into other schools, and those
things. These children given on the chart, the children
who were actually examined in all four years, the number
is considerably smaller, because —
Because of drop-outs?
Because of transfers, and some children were retained and weren't
tested in the same grade, and that type of thing.
So that your total number here according to the chart is
about 750 or 800?
That's correct, children who were tested at the four
successive years starting at the 6th and going to the 12th,
Over what spread of years — just four years on this?
Six years. '54 to '60.
Six years. And these tests were given over that spread?
197
A. That's right*
Q. Mr. Osborns, I call your attention to Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 in
this action, Answers to Interrogatories of the Jackson
School Board, containing a series of tables in answer to
Interrogatory 5.
If you will look at those, please, and I will ask you
whether you have seen those tables before?
Yes, I have seen it.
Have you considered the result shown in those tables
in comparison with the work you have done in Savannah?
A. Not statistically, but I have reviewed them.
Q. Would you say that they show the same or substantially the
same pattern, or different patterns?
A. Although the tests were given at different times by different
examiners, in general the trend is the same; the same conditions
obtained heree
Q. Is this true both as to mental maturity and as to the
achievement? Or just one?
A. It would be both; although the tests are not exactly
comparable. Different tests, but the ploture is the same.
Q. Dr. Osborne, are you familiar with the results which were
reported by the Mobile school system and put in evidence
in the Davis case?
A. Vaguely familiar; not as familiar as I am with this.
Q. Have you considered those to the same extent as the Jackson -
198
— as the Jackson, yes.
Do they show the same pattern?
Very little difference. Again the functions of the type of
tests, rather than any — .
Are the differences within normal spread, or do they show
different types of — . In other words, — .
The trends are the same.
Do differences exist in all of them?
Yes.
of
Are these differences approximately/the same score?
The magnitude of the differences is the same, I would
say. Roughly the same. Perhaps not the same for every
grade, but in general the same.
Are you familiar with the test results which were reported
for the City of Charleston in the State of South Carolina
and put in evidence in the Brown case?
Yes. Again, vaguely.
Q. Chi the 3ame basis?
A. That*s right.
Q, Have you considered those in terras of these differences?
A. Yes.
Q. And are they the same or different?
A. Hie Charleston data appeared to be greater. I mean, the
differences appear to be greater than those in the other
three studies mentioned.
Q. Are you familiar with the report that was made on the
Atlanta schools, Dr. Osborne, by the educational testing
service?
Yes. I am familiar vlth the charts, the general appearance of
the results.
Would you say that those have the same degree of difference
or less or more or any?
If I remember correctly, the Atlanta data were made to
compare schools, rather than by achievement areas for
children. I have to admit — If I could familiarize
myself or see the data, I might be able,
let me read you the following, Dr. Osborne, and ask for your
opinioni
"Average scores of Negro pupils fall progressively
further behind the national average and the averages for
white Atlanta pupils as they advance from primary grade
through high school."
Is that a statement that is constant with what you have
previously testified?
Yes.
Next paragraph:
"In reading, the difference between average scores is
about one grade at grade nearly two grades at grades
4 and 5; nearly three grades at grades 6 to 8j and over four
grades in English at grade 12."
Is that constant with what you have previously testified?
Yes, it follows
200
Q. I continue:
"In arithmetic, the differ eice between average scores
Is less than one grade at grade j5j about two grades at
grades 6 to 8j and over four grades in mathematics at
grade 12. Negro pupils tend to do better in arithmetic
than reading at all grade levels. They do very poorly in
English at grade 12."
Is that similar to or different from the results to
which you have testified this morning?
Similar to it. May I ask, Is that from the Atlanta report?
That is from the Atlanta report.
I will be glad to mark this in identification if the
plaintiffs want.
Q,. Who is the author of that report?
A. Or. Warren Finley supervised it. It was prepared by the
Educational Testing Service, Princeton.
Q. Do you know of any other study which has been made of the
achievement and mental maturity of Negro children in Southern
schools?
A. Recently Kennedy published a report out of Florida State.
Q. Will you please Identify him for us?
A. I am trying to recall his given name.
MR. LEONARD: Let me have this marked for identification.
(Same marked as Intervenor’s Exhibit No. 3 for Identification)
Q. I show you Intervenor*s Exhibit 3 for Identification, which
purports to be a monograph of the Society for Research in
Child Development, "A Normative Sample of Intelligence and
Achievement of Negro Elementary School Children in
the Southeastern United States, * by Wallace A. Kennedy, Vernon
Van De Riet, and James C. White, Jr.
I ask you vhether that is the study to which you have Just
made reference?
A. yes, that is right.
MR. LEONARD: At this time I would like to have the
witness identify and offer in evidence Just certain pages frcm
the report. I offer in evidence the title page, the
acknowledgment that the research was supported through
the Cooperative Research Program of the Office of Education,
U. s. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, and
pages 32, 84, 86, and 110 of Intervenor's Exhibit 3 for
Identificat ion.
T HE COURT: Let them be received in evidence.
(Said pages of Intervenor*s Exhibit No. 3 for Identification were
received in evidence)
Q,. Would you please refer to Table 45 at page 82 of that report,
and if you would, step down from the stand, and we have a
photographic enlargement on the easel.
Would you please state to us what the various columns mean?
A. Thin is a table from Kennedy*a revision, or normative data
for the new Stanford-Binet test. He administered this test
to a large number of Negro children in the Southeast, with the
results shown here.
202
In the column representing Age, the number of children tested
here. This is the age in months of the child (indicating), and
is the mental age in months as determined by the tests,
and this is the difference in months here (indicating).
Q. Ifhe difference between what?
A. Between the expected here (indicating) and the achieved here.
Q. When you say the "expected,” you mean the chronological age?
A. That's right, of an average child at the age the child was
tested.
Q, Do I understand — , Veil, is mental age and chronological
age the same thing?
A. No. Chronological age for test purposes is merely the
age at which the child took the test.
Q, what is the normal mental age for any given chronological age?
A. Normal mental a g e ----
— For any —
A. — Would be the same.
Q. It would be the same. Any difference in mental age and
chronological age would be what?
A, If the mental age is greater than the chronological age, it
would indicate the intelligence quotient above 100. If it's
below, it would indicate to that extent below.
Q. Can it be measured in terms of months or years as a difference?
In other words, can mental age be established?
A. Sure, mental age.
Q.. Can the difference between the two be taken?
203
Tfrfl-t *3 correct. That is vhat Kennedy has done here.
And does your column 011X61*0006 in months express that figure
which you have just explained?
By the way, this is not my table. I mean, it's fran the
monographs it is Mr. Kennedy's.
Yes.
As you understand the column entitled "difference in months.
That*8 correct.
Difference in mental age and chronological age?
That's right.
Is it ahead or behind, in terras of mental age?
In each case, with one exception here, the chronological age
is greater than the mental age. This, I think, is at the
■ ’V .
five-year level an artifact — Veil, it could be a sampling
accident or something else.
How many people were in the sample at five years?
Only 19 children at that age.
Is that a reliable sample for statistical purposes?
HOt when — At six years, we have 22?. I think that is
better. Some selective factor was at work there
we don't know about.
How, who were the subjects of this test, as the study
indicates?
The Negro children in the southeast.
About how many? Do you know?
Fifteen hundred or so. That's about right.
Are there differences between mental age and chronological
204
age constant?
A. No* It is cumulative.
Q. What is—
A. Well, at year level six, the difference is five months. At
year level ten, It Is seventeen. And I think the same
argument that I have made here for the small difference at year
five,
level, the small number, would also hold for this year level
thirteen, where the difference is out of line.
Q. Now, at the age of six where you say there is a
five month difference, this would mean a mental age of
five years and — -?
A. Seven months.
Q. At the age of seven, vbat would the mental age be?
A. 6.3*
And at the age of eight?
7., rounding off.
What?
I say at the age of eight, rounding this off, it would be 7.
h <iher words, that is almost one year behind at
the age of eight? 11.6 months?
Yes.
Q. And in terms of years, how far behind at nine?
A. One year,two months.
Q,. .And at ten?
A. One, five. And one, six. A year and a half.
Q. And at eleven?
205
A. Eleven? That’s vhat I said. — At eleven, a year
and a half at age eleven.
Q. And eleven?
A. Beat’s what I said. A year and a half. That's 18. —
Q. The difference In raofaths Is —
A. Oh, no. Ho, that’s 18. Excuse me. I didn’t have my glasses
on.
Eleven la 22 months.
Q. Close to two years?
A. That’s rl^ht.
That’s correct.
And twelve. What la the difference at the age of twelve?
35 months, or almost three years.
Is that chart consistent with the results you have reported
this morning on the various southern cities we have been
discussing?
The differences are not very great. I would say yes.
Does it follow the same general pattern?
Yes.
Q. Does this chart, taken as a whole, Indicate Negro students in
the southeastern United States lag behind the norm by an
increasing degree over the span of school years?
A. Prom Table 45, that would appear to be so.
Q. Does it appear like the figures you have dealt with in Savannah
and the ones you have seen on Jackson, Mobile, and the other
cities?
A, Restate the question
206
Q. Q. The question waa, does this table show an increasing
lag in the Negro student in the southeastern United States
as he progresses upward through the school years?
A. Lag in mental age, as measured by this test. Now, lag
in achievement, I thinkthe others we were talking about in
achievement.
Q.. Well, let's stay here with mental maturity. What does
mental maturity measure?
A. Ability to do intellectual work.
Q. In other words, in terms then of ability to do work, Dr.
Osborne, is there an increasing lag over the period of school
years?
A. From this table, there is.
Q. Nov, is that situation the same for the study you made in
Savannah?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Similar, yes.
And the figures which have been put in evidence here for Jackson?
Yes, similar to that.
And Mobile and Charleston?
A. 'The figures are similar, that is correct.
Q. If you will turn to the next chart there for a moment.
Would you explain that graph, please?
A. Ihis is a graph of Figure 2 from the Kennedy monograph, showing
the IQ distribution of Negroes and the normative sample,
This curve represents the obtained data from the Kennedy
study, and this curve represents the normative sample
207
superimposed on the same base line with the - same
scores represented.
Q. When you say the data from the Kennedy study, your first
line represents the scores of the Negro children?
A. Hiat is correct.
Q,. Distributed against a normal curve?
A . Yes.
Q. Or what type of curve?
A. Yes, this is the normal curve drawn on the same base line of
the Kennedy.
Q,. What do they call the area covered by both curves? Is there
any overlap between the two?
A. Boat is not the definition, correct definition. I mean,
this area here at which the curves overlap is not the usual or
conventional use of the term ’’overlap.”
Q. Does it have a term, Then measured against the normal?
A. It Blips my mind right now if it does.
Q. What does this chart show in terms of the preceding chart?
A. The same.
Q,. The Negro students are up to, ahead of, or behind the normal?
A. Behind the normal group. I think this is a graphic represen
tation of the other data we Just saw.
Q. Are the Negro figures given there in the normal distribution
form? In other words, is the curve which they form a normal
distribution type curve?
A. It is the usual bell type curve, but it is peaked more than
than the normal curve here.
Q. Why is that?
A. I can only guess. I don’t know anything about —
Q,. Do you have an opinion?
A. Yes. I would have an opinion that the lower range of
the tests here would seem to — . Well, the test
doesn’t effectively measure below the IQ’s 40, 50, and so
forth. I would say that chance plays a great deal in giving
scores In this neighborhood from 40 to 60.
Q. And that has tended to pack it up with —
A. I would say that, yes, but I don’t know that.
I would hazard that as a guess.
Q. Turn to the next chart.
THE OODHT: At this point v© will take a ten minute
recess.
(Court was recessed for ten minutes)
After Recess
(MR. LEONARD:)
Q. Dr. Osborn, would you pleaae turn your attention to Table 71
of the Kennedy study, a likeness of which is presently on
the easel, and tell me what those figures show?
A. table shows the correlation between the Stsnford-Binet
mental age and achievement as measured by the California
Achievement Test, correlation between Reading on the Calif
ornia, and Mental Age measured by the Bluet is .68, arithmeticj
.64, language; .70 — and Battery, I assume, means the
209
the conbinatlon of these grades — would be .69.
Q. What do those figures mean?
A. That the relationship between Intelligence is
measured by the — mental age as measured by the Binet, and
achievement as measured by the California Achievement Test,
is high average. I mean, you can predict the one from
the other fairly accurately.
q . Are all the correlation figures substantially equal, or do they
show any real variation?
A. Ho, there is not much difference. I doubt if the
difference is significant. It is more apparent than real.
Q. Thank you. Please turn to the next chart. You have now on
the easel what table number?
A. 68.
Q
A,
Table 68 of the Kennedy study. Would you please tell us what
that table shows?
It Is a capitulation of the California Achievement Test
grade placement at each grade level by all of the sub-tests,
giving the number of children in the 1st, 2nd, and through the
6th grades, both male and female.
Q* Does it show any differences between the grades where the
Ifegro children tested and the norm?
A. The 1st grade -
Q. — Well, in general.
A. Well, in general, I would say the same Information that
we have reported for other studies, I think we could find
here. Maybe with same slight differences, but the trend
210
and the magnitude of the differences would be the same.
Substantially the same as in the other cities?
As the others.
I would like to show you at this time a graph of Table 45
from Dr. Kennedy*s monograph, and ask whether the
curve which is shown there approximates the curves which you
previously testified to in connection with Savannah?
Yes. The information here is similar. Maybe in this area
back here, slightly different, but the green is the norm and
the red is the Negro group, from the Kennedy study.
On Savannah and the other studies, where would the white line
have been if Dr. Kennedy had tested it and it remained in
this pattern? In other words, was your white line in
Savannah at or above the norm?
Approximately the norm.
In other words, your measurement here then of your Negro
against the norm Is a reasonable comparison of Negro against
white in this area?
Yes, although he doesn’t do that here. But I think the norm— .
I would like you to look at this time at the graph of the
reading grade placement from Table 68 which you have just
been looking at, and again I ask you if this is approximately,
the same trend which was shown in the graph of reading place
ment in Savannah?
Similar, but I think the differences here are somewhat slight,
less than Savannah, but the trend is the same.
look at the one behind that and tell us what that shows.
This is language grade placement. It shows about the
same thing except as we found in the other studies, the
girls on the language achievement approximate the norm
more nearly than the boys, but the average of those
would be about the same.
There is still a divergence on the whole between the Negro
tests and the norm?
That is right.
Which increases over the grades.
From 2 to 6, yes, from the Kennedy data.
Now, take the next one.
Arithmetic grade placement from the Kennedy data.
Is that approximately or substantially similar to the one
you tested in Savannah?
Again yes.
Now, would you contrast the difference in this chart with
the difference which was in the immediately preceding chart
on language? I notice that the differences appear to be
different on the chart. Could you explain it?
The differences appear to be somewhat less for arithmetic
than for language achievement.
Is this the same as you have found in Savannah and elsewhere?
Yes, except for arithmetic fundamentals, I think we had
an increase, a greater difference, for the arithmetic
fundamentals. This is not broken down by fundamentals and
reasoning. I think the difference was slightly greater.
But there again it’s just —
Q. Does it tend to fall into a pattern by subject matter?
Is there consistency to these figures in that respect?
A. The overall trend is the sane, I think.
Q, Taking them by subjects, Is there to any extent a pattern
which is formed by these different city results?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you. If you will take the stand again...
(Witness does same)
Q. In connection with your Savannah study, Dr. Osborne, did you
make any attempt to match white and Negro students of the
same mental maturity or IQ?
A. Yes. A proportion of the study was that.
Q. What was the point of this study? What were you trying to
achieve?
A, The purpose was to compare achievoment after having matched
- the children in terms of age arid mental ability.
Q. Will you tell me more about how you matched them?
A. It was an experimental matching; from the largo group we were
able to find children who were of the same age and equal
mental ability in both groups. Ihrough the sorting of the cards
we were able to match them in that respect.
Q. Did you match them in pairs?
A. Yes.
Q. How many pairs did you have?
213
A. 1*11 have to look at the report.
Q. Well, in a rough amount, subject to checking the report —
A. Yes.
Q.
A.
A.
Q.
— approximately how many?
Over a hundred pairs of these boys and girls.
And in each pair, the Negro child and the white child who
were matched had the same IQ at the beginning of your tests?
Yes.
Dr. Osborne, you were about to answer the question, what was
the purpose of matching these pairs of children in the
Savannah school?
To determine the achievement, variations in achievement, after
the groups had been matched for mental ability and age.
Was this an effort to determine whether they stay the same
thereafter or change?
I had no preconceiv ed ideas, but it was just to watch the
groups as they progressed through, from the 6th grade to
the 12th grade.
Q. Would you please step down again to the easel and identify
for us the photoenlargement which is now on the easel?
(Witness does same)
A. This is from the monograph Figure 4, average intelligence
grade placements,
Q. As appears in Intervenor’s Exhibit 2, your monograph?
A. Yes. Average intelligence grade placements earned on California
* Mental Maturity Test by groups of white and Negro pupils
equated on the basis of Intelligence quotients earned at the
6th grade level were matched at this point and
examined repeatedly---- By the way, the numbers are here.
59 pairs of male students and 8l pairs of females.
Q« 131 pairs of students. Were these all taken from the same
percentage of their respective groups?
A. No. In order to match them at this level here, if you will
follow the Kennedy curves, we had to find a selection of
children that would fit the two criteria — that is, age and
mental ability. They were not from the some sections, as
pointed out in the monograph.
Q,. Would you explain this graph to us. Why do all the lines
start at one point?
A. That is a condition of the experiment. They were matched
at this point in the 6th grade.
Q. In the 6th? Does the single point then mean that they
were exactly the same in the 6th grade?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is your next test point after the 6th grade?
A. 8th.
Q. And are they 3til}, together at the 8th grade?
A. No. They diverge by maybe a half-grade or so.
Q. Approximately half a school year apart two years later?
A. Yes, guessing — and the figures are in the monograph — but
graphically it looks like about a half a grade.
Q. When did you next test them?
215
A. 10th grade.
Q. And -what was their relative position at that time?
A. It looks to me, about two years* difference in mental
maturity at the 10th grade level.
Q. What was the conclusion of this study on matched pairs in the
terms of mental maturity?
A. That students matched at the 6th grade, by the time they
had progressed to the 12th grade, their differences were
again apparent, although hot as much as if they had not
been matched at the 6th grade.
Well, the trend?
The trends are the same as found in the unmatched, but
the magnitude is somewhat less.
Well, is the magnitude less because they started together?
Yes. Well, we artificially put them together.
In other words, If we take a Negro and a white student who
have the same IQ at a given time, will they have the same
IQ two years later?
These didn’t, I couldn*t generalize from the data.
To the extent that you have tested the pairs, what is your
conclusion?
That the answer would be no, they do not have.
Does It tend to increase or stay the same or what, after it
has diverged?
A, In general?
Q. Is there an increase in difference or a decrease?
216
A. Oh, the difference tends to increase with increasing age,
Q. Until maturity, or past?
A. Well, I can’t go beyond grade 12. Shat is age 18.
Q. Take the next chart a ® identify that.
A. These are the same children as we examined them on
reading comprehension.
Q. These are the matched pairs again?
A. That’s rifgit.
Q. They start out the same, and you are measuring them in
what? Reading?
Vocabulary, comprehension, and total. That's right,
now, for the children that had the same IQ in the 6th grade,
did they have identical vocabulary capacities at that time?
Not exactly. Fairly close, but not exactly.
Did it stay the same thereafter or did it change?
The difference tended to increase from the 6th to the 12th
grade.
Q. Is that also true of reading comprehension?
A. Yes, but to a slighter extent.
Q. If you will turn to the next chart and Identify that.
A. The same children. Now we are talking about arithmetic
achievement.
Q. Do they start approximately the same in arithmetic reasoning
and fundamentals?
A. Very little difference there. The difference there is again
more apparent than real. That is almost the same. But as they
217
Q.
A.
Q.
go through the school system, the reasoning difference tends
to widen.
Now, does it tend to widen at the same rate substantially as
the reading did in the last chart, or at a different rate?
I believe there was a difference. There is a difference
In the rate of change.
In other words, they changed differently for arithmetic than
for reading?
And from reasoning to fundamentals.
Dr. Osborne, have you at any time had occasion to read
the published Dallas school tests?
A. As appeared in U. S. NEWS AND WQRID REPORT?
Yes.
Yes, I have.
Are those results constant with the results you have
mentioned for the other cities here today?
Slight if any real difference.
Do you know of any studies which have been made outside of the
South in areas of integrated schools?
I am familiar with a report of the Washington, D. C., schools.
The report to which you refer has been marked in evidence
here as Defendant *s Exhibit 20. Tell me what the figures
in Defendant^ Exhibit 20 show in terms of what you have
already testified to.
A. Basically the same things, if I recall, give or take for a
gwyde here or there, but basically the same trend.
218
Q. In other words, the figures given in the D. C. report
>
are similar to the figures in the southern schools?
A. Yes.
Q. In terms of these trends which we have been discussing.
I would like to read to you at this time what purports to be
a portion of an article from the New York Times, reporting
the school results in the Harlem schools of New York.
(Same was marked as Intervener's Exhibit No. 4 for Identification)
0 Q. Reading from Intervenor's Exhibit 4 for identification, which
purports to be an article from the New York Times of October
22nd, 1965:
"The pattern in the central Harlem schools shows that 20
perednt of the third grade pupils are below their grade level
by about a year. Seventy percent of sixth grade pupils average
two years below their grade level, and 85 percent of the eighth
graders average three years behind.
"The usual measures of retardation are reading and
arithmetic achievement. However, I.Q. scores, now widely
discredited as an objective measure of intelligence, also
show a marked decline."
If that statement is true, Dr. Osborne, would it be
constant with the figures which you have testified here to this
morning as bei tg the typical pattern of Negro and white children?
A. Yes.
Q. And in your opinion would that change and decline which is
reported in the Times be one inherent in the children or v
one resulting from the schools?
It is not the schools. I mean, the schools are the satos.
Save you made any studies, Dr. Osborne, in the pre-school
field to determine -whether these trends to which you have
testified did or did not, do or do not exist before
the child enters school?
I am in the process of making studies of that type now,
but they havenot been published.
Have you come to any conclusions sufficient to form an
opinion?
Tentative and cautiously, I would say.
What were the nature of the studies you have made?
The same kinds of measures were conducted with pre-school
children and offered as a tentative conclusion, that the
conditions obtained in the 1st, 2nd, and third grades
also show up at the pre-school level.
What is your total conclusion as to the relationship, if any
between the pre-school period and the school period in terns of
these trends? Is there any difference during pre-school?
I would say no. The trend seems to be the same from pre
school through the 12th grade.
And the differences which have been shown to Increase on
these chart3 are differences which exist in the children at
the time they first ccme to school?
220
A. They are apparently that, that’s right.
Q. Are these differences to which you have testified significant
in an educational sense?
A. For instructional purposes, yes, I vould say so.
Q. Can they be attributed to chance?
A. No.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Is there any possibility that these differences which are
shown in each of these charts In the cities simply Is an
accident?
Not as a sampling accident. I think the consistency with
which all data — .
Would it be true or false to say that essentially what your
figures have shown today is that Negro children tend to lag
by about one year In four?
Yes, in school-type achievement.
In school-type achievement. That’s what I'm talking about.
Yes.
Is it true or false that a difference in rate of learning
progress exists even with children of the same IQ when we
take a Negro and a white child?
My evidence would tend to support that.
And that there is a difference of learning ability between
the two in terns of subject matter?
Kennedy studies and others demonstrate that, yes.
And are they consistent with your studies in the field of
achievement?
Yes.
221
How many years did you state that you have taught?
In public school, one year —
Wall, all together.
Twenty-four, wasn't it?
Twenty-four. Based on that experience, as well as on your
professional qualifications, Dr. Osborne, wotid you say that
separate educational treatment is or is not desirable for
Negro and white children?
I would say it is.
I'm talking purely on educational grounds.
Yes, Practical education.
In the major tests you made in Savannah, did you take
any precaution to avoid the possibility that the teachers
were below standard in the Negro schools? Did you make any
check at all on that?
As part of another study we did study the teachers' quali
fications .
What was your conclusion on that?
The teachers, in terms of recenfcy of training and advanced
degrees in terms of salary,in the Negro teachers were better
prepared and better paid than our white teachers.
In your opinion then, would it be proper to attribute the
differences you have testified to to the teachers?
Not ifi the usual criteria of teacher qualifications is met —
that is, advanced training, advanced degrees and salary.
In other words, you have identical or better qualifications?
222
A. Yes.
Q. — As far as your tests could show?
Yes.
In your opinion, Dr. Osborne, what would happen to the
achievement level in the white schools of Jackson if group
integration were to be undertaken? I'm talking now only about
scholastic achievement.
And this is an opinion.
This is strictly an opinion.
Well, statistically, to add the achievement levels of the two
groups now and average them, you would, of course, have a
lower achievement level.
Suppose you held to the came norms which are now used in
the white schools, what would happen?
Well, the failure rate for Negro children would probably
increase.
What if you dropped the achievement norm of the school
to the rate previously used in the Negro school?
There would be —— Well, no failures. I mean, limited or
very few failures for the white children.
What would be the level of education?
It would strike an average of the two groups thrown together.
Well, I*ra talking now about dropping the grade requirements,
the norm requirements on a grade basis to the ones previously
used entirely in the Negro schools.
Well, the standards would be lower if you lowered the
223
expectations.
Q* Mr. Pittman asks to what extent you tested the teachers in
Atlanta?
That was done by the National Teacher Examination,
sponsored by the Educational Testing Service. I did not do
that.
And that was the basis on which you drew your conclusions?
That1s right. Yes.
That is all I have.
THE COURT: Any cross examination by plaintiff?
MR . BELL: We have no questions. We will just renew
our motion we made at the opening part of the testimony to
strike the testimony as irrelevant to the issues in this
case.
THE COURT: Well, I will adhere to my ruling.
MR. CANNABA: For and on behalf of all defendants, we would
like to adopt the testimony of Dr. Osborne as the testimony
for and on behalf of the defendants.
THE COURT: Very well.
And I will overrule the objection for the reasons I gave
heretofore.
You may step down.
(Witness excused)
MR. PITTMAN: I would like to call Mr. Milbome back
for a question or two since the testimony of Dr. Osborne.
THE COURT: Very well.
WILLIAM S. MHJ30RNE, recalled as a witness and having previously
been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BV MR. PITTMAN:
Q. Mr. Milbome, I believe you were qualified as an expert
educator earlier this morning.
Is that true, Your Honor?
THE COURT: T§s, sir.
Q. In 195^, when the Supreme Court rendered its decision in tie
famous Brown case, you were then principal of a high school in
Louisville, Kentucky?
A. Yes, sir.
Q* When that decision was rendered in which it was held that
segregation injures the personality of Negro children,
were you in substantial agreement with that holding or assumption
at that time?
A. Yes, sir, I was in agreement with it.
Q. Now, in 1956 when the integration first took place in
louisville, were you still of the opinion that segregation
injured the personalities of the Negro children and that the
children should be integrated?
A. I was still of the opinion that integration was better than
225
segregation.
Q. Nov, in the light of your experience with integrated schools
from 1956 to 1962, do you still believe that integrated
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
schools are better than segregated schools for Negro
children and for white children?
No, sir. From ray experience I have reached the conclusion
that the integration that we were undertaking was in the
name of a social revolution that was actually injurious
to children.
Injurious to all children or just some children?
Injurious to all.
Is that conclusion based both on your experience and your
present knowledge as an educator?
It is based on ray personal experience in one school.
How much integration took place in Louisville after 1956 in
your school?
As I stated earlier —
— Proportionately in numbers.
A relatively small amount at the beginning, increasing to
approximately 20 percent over a period of time in that par
ticular school.
I ask you to state whether or not the educational standards of
that school went down in the same proportion that the number
of colored students increased in the student body?
Gradual erosion was about in the same proportion as the
increase of Negro students.
Q*
226
About what period or what time between 1956 and 1962 did
you come to realize from your experience as a school
principal and a school man, educator, that a mistake had
been made?
A.
•
Well, after about some two or three years' experience with
it, I came to the conclusion that we were exploiting the
children in the name of a social revolution — that is,
that we were assuming that there waa equal ability, and
moving along that line, and that put some children, Negro
children, in a position they should not have been put in.
Q. You heard the testimony of Dr. Osborne. The effect of it was
that Negro children fall behind white children in school
approximately one year in every four. Does that accord with
your observation, substantially, as principal of Male High
School in Louisville?
® A. In general, yes. Of course, as to the fail-back, I can't
document it exactly as he had it.
Q. As an educator, if you should assume that what Dr. Osborne
said is true, that Negro children fall behind white children
approximately one year in every four, I will ask you to
state to the Court what effect that would have upon the
educational program where substantial numbers of normal
children — - that is, those who make normal progress
according to Caucasian standards — are forced into the same
rocms and under the same teacher with children who are fall! ng
behind one year in every four. What is the effect of that?
A. I think ire would be doing a great disservice to the children.
Q. would you Injure the personality of all the children in that
classroom?
A. You*d injure the personality of many.
Q,. Of many?
A. Yes.
Q,. state, as an educator, the difference between teaching a
class where all or where substantially all proceeed at
approximately the same rate and teaching a class where one
portion of it, a substantial portion of it in number, fall
behind in gross amounts each year. What is the difference
from a standpoint of a teacher?
A. Well, it is pretty generally known and accepted that where
you have a viab spread of ability in a given class that the
teacher*s time is not used in the best manner, for the simple
reason that she has got to make planning and exceptions for
this level, for this level, and for that level, instead of being
able to concentrate on a homogeneous group.
Q. Then as a result, if a parent has a child he wants to mare
along at a normal rate, and that child can move along at a
normal rate, if integration continues in Louisville or if it
is instituted in Jackson, will it be necessary for that parent
to send that child to a private school?
A. Well, the word "necessary" has a number of interpretations. —
Q. Would it be advisable, then?
A. Would probably be advisable if the parent could afford it to
228
put him In a private school, or in a school all Megro or
all -white.
Q. When a group of children in the classroom are failing or
tend to fail and they drop behind and they realize they
can’t catch up and keep up, -what is the result?
A. Well, I think failure i3 not a desirable thing. Failure is
fatal. It does something to the child's ego, his personality,
to fail.
Q. Docs that child, in your experience as an educator, try to com
ponsate in name way for that deficiency which he knows he has
and which he knows his schoolmates know he has?
A. Many of them do.
And what form does that take frequently?
Well, It could take various forms. With one pupil it might
be Just a huge Indifference to the whole thing. "So what?
Who cares?" To another it might take a different form. He
might withdraw into himself and become shy, or withdraw from
school. With others It might compensate for that by
showing off, being the worst boy or the worst girl in the
class.
Q. Anti-social conduct?
A. Wot necessarily anti-social. It's Just a show-off.
Q,. What effect does that have on the progress of normal children,
scholastic progress?
A. Well, the total effect Is Just a lowering of your school
morale and your school achievement.
229
A.
Now, one other things Are you as an educator acquainted
with the statistics as to the number, relative number, of
graduates of southern Negro high schools who qualify for
college, as compared with the relative number of graduates of
integrated high schools in the north who qualify for college
entrance?
I have seen statistics along that line.
Do you believe them to be credible?
To the effect that the opportunity that a Negro has of going on
to college if ha3 graduated from an all-Negro school is
much beyond that of a Negro who has graduated from an
integrated school.
Now, you said ''"much beyond. ” Could you give us in numbers
what your opinion would be?
It has been some years since I heard this, but at that
time, as I recall, the statement was that the opportunity
open to a southern Negro hi^i school graduate was about seven
to one of getting into college over that of a graduate from
an integrated school.
Now, in conclusion, I will ask you, based upon your knowledge
as an educator and your experience and your efforts to make
integration work in Louisville, can you point to any area in
which you believe or you can state that integration has helped
any school children as a group since 1954?
I can’t point to anything specific.
250
Q.
A.
Q-
But you can point to specific examples of injury or harm to the
educational program? Is that right?
Yes, sir, I can.
That is all.
THE COURT: Any questions by other defendants?
MR. WATKDE: No, sir.
THE COURT: Any cross examination?
MR. HEIL: No, Your Honor.
TEE COURT: You may step down.
(Witness excused)
MR. CANKADA; Our witness would be Dr. Kirby Walker,
who will be a rather lengthy witness. Would you like to
start before lunch or after lunch? We would prefer to put
him on after lunch and go through without breaking.
THE COURT: Well, is he here?
MR. GANNADA: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: We might start out for about ten minutes.
KIRBY P. WAIKER, called as a witness in his own behalf and having
been duly sworn, testified aa follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. CANNAm:
Q. State your name to the reporter, please.
A. Kirby P. Walker.
Q. Are you the same Kirby P. Walker who previously testified
251
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
In this case, as a defendant In this case?
Yes, sir.
Mr. Walker, for whom do you work?
Board of Trustees of the Jackson Public Schools.
How lone have youworked for the Board of Trustees of the
Jackson Public Schools?
Since August, 1955*
In what capacity?
In August, 1955, I was the assistant to the superintendent
of the schools. In December of 1955 I was elected acting
superintendent of schools, and since January of 1957 I have been
superintendent of the schools of this district.
What is your educational training, Mr. Walker?
A. I graduated from the Hattiesburg High School in 1912. I
Q.
A.
was graduated from Southwestern in Tennessee in 1922 with an
AB degree. I wa graduated from the University of Chicago with
an MA. degree in 193^. I have attended George Peabody College
in Tennessee, and have worked at the University of Southern
Mississippi and the University of Mississippi.
Do you belong to any educational associations?
I am a member of the Mississippi Educational Association;
the National Educational Association; the American Association
of School Administrators. I am a past president of the
Southern Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools;
I have been a member of the advisory committee to the
U. S. Commissioner of P’ducatlon; I have been chairman of
the advisory conmitteo to the Educational Testing Service for
National Teacher Examinations. I think that's sufficient.
THE C0ORT: I believe here is a very good place to
stop. I believe we will have recess until one-thirty.
("Whereupon the court was recessed until Is 30 P.M.)
After Recess
THE COURT: Very well, you may proceed.
(Mr. Cannada continues:)
Q. I believe when we recessed for lunch you were in the
process of giving us the professinal organizations to
wiiich you belonged and the offices to which you have
been elected. Would you continue that? Also, any
training that you have had pertaining to the educational
field.
A. Yes, sir. With respect to my employment record, I was first
employed as a teacher of grades eight to twelve at the
Forest County Agricultural High School from 1922 to 1925.
I was superintendent of that school from 1925 to 1932.
In 1932 I was appointed State supervisor of Agricultural High
Schools and Junior Colleges of the State Department of
Education of Mississippi. In 193^ and 1935 I was a state
director for the emergency educational program sponsored by
the State Department of Education, in which there were seme
2,000 teachers employed and a staff of assistants to the di
rector. I have been a visiting lecturer at the University of
Houston at Houston, Texas. The same at the University of
Texas. I have served as a member of the test administration
team of some sixty persons, as I recall, vho administered
tests In a statewide survey of public education in
Mississippi about 1926 or 27. This study was directed by
Br. M. V. O’Shea, vho was the Dean of Education at the
University of Wisconsin. I was chairman of the Research
and Service Commission, for three years for the Southern
Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools, doing research
for the organization to aid it in its work in accrediting
institutions of higher learnings at the secondary level in
the State of Mississippi, in the southern states. I am a
member of the National Society for the Study of Education;
the honorary educational fraternity, Phi Delta. Kappa. I was
cited by the University of Chicago as an alumnus vho was
recognized as a useful citizen. Southwestern in Tennessee
conferred the doctorate on me for my service in public
education. I was a member of the connittee ’mown as the
Mid-Century Comnittee on Outcomes in Elementary Education,
which was a joint project of the United States Office of
Education, of the Educational Testing Service of Princeton,
New Jersey, and of the Elementary School Principals Associ
ation of the National Educational Association. This project
was financed by the Russell Sage Pbunclation, and its report
was published.
I think this very well completes the resume of my work
224
experience.
Q. Mr*. Walker, relating your experience, you indicated that you
were a part of a team back in 1926 and 1927 that made a
survey of the educational facilities and training in
Mississippi by Mr. M. V. O'Shea? Is that correct?
A. That is right.
Q. I hand you a book and ask you if you recognize this.
(Hands to witness)
A. This is the publication by the B. B. Jones Fund, titled
A STATE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM AT WORK, and I am identified on
page 16 as a member of the team of educators who administered
the test in the State of Mississippi.
MR. CAHNABA: If the Court please, we would like to
introduce this entire book I ito evidence, with the right
to withdraw the original and place a copy In the record.
THE COURT: Very well. That could be done.
(Same received In evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit Ho.21.)
Q. Mr. Walker, I hand you this book which has now been marked as
Exhibit D-21 to the testimony of the defendants and ask you
when this wa3 published and the name of the publisher.
A. This was published in 1927 by the Bernard B. Jones Fund.
Q. Would you tell the Court a little of the history of that
study and aurvey, and in general the substance of the findings?
A. Governor Whitfield in 1925 went to Madison, Wisconsin, and
prevailed on Dean O'Shea to organize a study to be made in
this state as to the ability and the achievement of its
youth in public schools and in colleges and universities.
Can you tell us who Mr. 0*Shea -was?
Dr. O'Shea was the Dean of Education in the School of
Education at the University of Wisconsin. The study took
probably a year, as I recall. It involved primarily the
measurement by tests, group tests, of youth of the state,
both Negro and white. These findings are recorded here,
charted, and there are some recommendations and conclusions as
to improving the program of education in the State of
Mississippi, an I recall.
Mr. Walker, you have heard the testimony of Mr. Barker con
cerning the tests that have been given to the Negro and white
pupils of the Jackson Municipal Separate School District,
have you not?
I have.
I ask you in general do the findings that are reflected in Dr.
Barker's charts and reflected in the pupils of the Jackson
Municipal Separate School District parallel? or are they
similar or dissimilar to the findings made by this study back
in 1926, insofar as the distinctions between the Negro and
white pupils is concerned.
There are tables in the O ’Shea report as to the distribution
of Negro pupils with respect to IQ. in each grade of elementary
and high schools. Biis has to do with mental ability to do
the things that we do at school. And I see here the median
score, IQ, ranges from 60 to as high as 86 from grades one
e
Q
to tvelve, ftie average or the median for 5*000 randomly
selected Negro pupils, being 75.
There is also a table showing the distribution of white
pupils in respect to IQ in elementary and high schools.
This involves some 23,000 pupils randomly selected, whose
median IQ's from grades one to twelve ranged from 92 to 101,
with a median for all of 95.
There likewise is a table showing achievement of Negro
high school seniors in math, science, in history and social
studies; and the same is true for white pupils, and the
disparity there is somewhat in keeping with the disparity
that we find between white and Negro pupils and the mental
ability and achievement. And these data seem to confirm and
support the evidence that was submitted by Dr. Barker yesterday
as to the difference in mental ability and in academic achieve
ment of pupils in this particular school system.
I ask you, Mr. Walker, does the information that is contained
in this O'Shea report insofar as the mental ability and
achievement of the Negro and the white pupils back in 1926
conform in general with the relative abilities between the
two races as reflected by the charts heretofore introduced
pertaining to the pupils of the Jackson Municipal Separate
School District?
A. My answer to that is yes, recognizing that the instruments
that were used for testing 37 or 38 years ago have been
improved somewhat, but the norms that were established then
tor the nation and the norms that were established for the
state with respect to the two groups, and the norms that we
have today for the nation and for our district, the district
here, are very similar.
Mr. Walker, I believe you stated that you have been superinten
dent of the Public schools of Jackson for — since 1937?
That*3 right.
I believe It has also been brought out here in your
previous testimony that in 195^ the school board turned over
the question of taking enrollments and making temporary assign-
n©nts ol the pupils of this district to you. Will you explain
to the Court when this was done, how it was done, And, if you
know, why it was done?
Yes, sir. In August, 19f&, after a conference with counsel
for the board of trustees in which, as X understood it, there
was some doubt, or maybe -— using slightly different
language - there mig#it be a cloud over the constitutional
provision of this state for the operation of separate schools.
It was counsel’s advice to the board that since this might not
be a legal matter any longer that it would be wise for the
superintendent,as professional educator and as professional
advisor to the board of trustees,to be fully and who lly
responsible for admitting, assigning, pupils on an annual
basis.
This, the board acted, striking from its records all
provisions for the zoning cf pupils by school attendance
areas, and left the superintendent in the position of
having to devise a way to get pupils in school in a
reasonable manner, organized and ready for instruction.
I had to drav on my background of seventeen years of
working with people in this community in a rather intimate way
as a school man, having worked with teachers, know! g them
personally, knowing literally thousands of patrons, having
been in classrooms on an average at least one day a week
visiting classes, interrogating pupils, chatting with
teachers, asking principals about the school operation,
discussing the achievement, the performances, the general
tone of the school, knowing something of the social, cultural
interests of parents, the aspirations for their children,
and being concerned, as I am sincerely concerned, and also
concerned as a public school administrator to discharge my
duties to the very best of my ability. I tried to devise a
way to to assign children to a school that would insure for
them, all children, white or Negro, with the resources that we
had, so that as little time would be lost as was possible
and we would be involved in the instructional program without
any undue delay.
Therefore, on my own responsibility, knowing where
schools were situated, knowing generally the number of pupils
that there were or are, were in the community at that time,
and having available to us a biannual survey of the number
of educables in the district as to residence, age, grade
level, I made a public announcement, giving directions to
parents through the press that their children should be
taken to a school as directed, where they would make appli
cation for admission and where they would be temporarily
assigned, subject to permanent assignment by the board of
trustees at a shhsequent date.
At the same time, I instructed principals of schools,
both white and Negro, that the pupils who were directed to
their buildings were to receive applications and to assign
the child or children to the respective schools on a temporary
basis.
This generally was complied with. The provision was also
made and announcement simultaneously provided, copies of
which were placed in the hands of principals and generally
made known to anyone who was interested in it, that at the
staff level provision was being made to receive any requests
for a change or changes of assignments of pupils that parents
might deem advisable. This wa3 to be effected by making a
rather simple request: naming the child, his age, his grade,
the name of the parent, and stating the reason why the parent
was seeking request of the temporary assignment to be changed
to another school.
These requests were made by Negro pupils at the adminis
trative offices of the school district, which are situated
at 1060 lynch Street, and for the other pupils at the adminis-
trative offices at 662 South President.
Normally we receive some three, four, five hundred
requests for changes of assignments, and usually, assuming
the reasons submitted are valid and not Just simply a matter
of preference but have a basis for good judgment, if we had
teachers and classroom facilities to acconsnodate these
changes and it did not create an undue demand administratively
on us in accommodating such c hanges, these were honored.
This work is usually attended to in&out two cr three days
following the actual opening of school, and I'd say within
a week's time parents have been adaised in person as to whether
or not their requests for changes have been approved or not,
and at a regular meeting of the board of trustees some days
later we have been making report to the board as to the
assignment, temporary assignment, of pupils, following which
the board has made assignments permanent.
This procedure continues throughout the year for any
newcoming pupils or pupils who may change their residence
from one part of the school district to another.
I believe this fairly well describes what was done when
we were given the responsibility of assigning pupils on an
individual basis.
Q. As I understand your testimony, Mr. Walker, this procedure was
prescribed by you in the summer of 1954 for the school
241
A.
Q.
A.
A.
Q.
session *54-*55# is that correct?
Eiat Is right.
Has that procedure in substance been followed ever since?
It has. It has been followed with very little change, other
than annually we have been compelled to make some changes
in our instructions as to where children should go to — or
the parents of the child should go to make application for
admission, that being due to two conditions: one, the
district has grown considerably in area and in population,
school population; and, second, we have had some build-ups
in some areas where, as new facilities were made available, we
were able to make abetter assignment or distribution of pupils
to schools.
Has at any time since the summer of 1954 to date the board of
trustees Interfered in any way In your conduct of your
responsibilities under this delegation to you of taking these
applications and making the temporary assignments?
Ho, the board has made no inquiry, has not interfered, and has
not been concerned, other than to act as we have recommended
each month on the recommendation that assignments that have
been made temporary are now prepared or ready to be marked or
made permanent.
Mr. Walker, In the handlirg of these several hundred, as you
say, requests for transfer each year, do you explain to the
parents why a particular transfer is or is not approved, or
why it isn’t approved If it isn’t?
If there has been a request for a change of assignment which
we have not been able to honor, we have reported to the
parent that his application could not be honored and we have
stated the reasons why. We have often asked, 'Would you like
for us to hold this request in suspense so that, if at a
later date the enrollment of the educational situation at
that school became different from what it was that time, we
might then review it and make the change?"
Mr. Walker, in the approximately ten years in which this
procedure has been in effect, has there been a single pupil
or a single parent to appeal to the board of trustees from the
temporary assignment previously made by you or under your
supervision?
There has been none.
As I understand your testimony, the board of trustees has
never actually passed on a protest or complaint from any pupil
or parent in this district?
We have had no protest, we have had no announced intention to
protest; we hove had 3ome very earnest people who were very-
eager to have the change in assignment made, but without
exception, when we revealed to them the actual facts with
respect to teaching loads and the ability to serve the
child where he was then as compared to where they were asking
to be transferred, they have seemed to have been satisfied.
I would say that this sort of arrangement, in ray own mind,
was filled with possibilities of real difficult school
243
administration. It has proved, surprisingly to me, that
it can be done and that people generally are very cooperative]
and this applies to all of them. We haven’t really had a
serious problem with respect to the assignment of pupils
as we have directed. I can say to you that it perplexes
some people; they get annoyed because I can’t tell them as
of new where their child will be attending school next
September. As a matter of fact, I don’t know now and will
not until shortly before the opening of school.
.That answers my next question. As a matter of fact, as I
understand your testimony, you do this each year independent
entirely of the preceding year? Is that correct?
A. That is correct.
At what time during each year under your procedure
will you entertain any request for transfers or for
assignment to a particular school?
>
All applications are invited and are to be made if they are
residents of the district and wish to attend the public
school, during the week immediately preceding the opening
of the school session, which, by board policy, is the second
Monday In September.
So that, Mr. Walker, if any parent, white or Negro, of this
district, if he should inquire of you prior to September of any
particular year as to where his child or children will attend
V- ; > * 1 v . - - ^
school the next year, what has been your answer?
My answer is, and has been for the past ten years, that
I
244
provision will be made and announcement will be made
for you to make an application at a school, at which time you
will make written application for your child to attend, and he
will be assigned at that tine, but until that announcement
is made, I am not in position to advise where the child will
attend school.
Q. Is the parent advised at that time concerning his ri$it to
make a request for a transfer if he is dissatisfied with
the temporary assignment?
That question is often naked. "Suppose he is assigned to a
school that I don't want him to attend? I’d rather he
attend another school.11 We take the tine then to explain
that an opportunity is provided for them to make written
request, but until they have actually made an application and
until they have actually been assigned — the child has been
assigned to a school — we cannot entertain applications for
changes of assignment.
Nov, there are two reasons for that. One of them is that
information is not available to us as to where we are going
to direct them to go for their assignment — that is, early.
The second reason is that many of the inquiries that we have
early in the year are by persons who may not even be in the
/ I ■ V •„ ,r . .school district or may be moving to other areas of the
school district or contemplating it, and we can't anticipate
to that extent what our answer should be to accoaanodate any
• 1 l ■ i V,:- ' JV _ £number of requests that Diay not be too firm in their original
Mr. Walker, In the last ten years since 195^, has there been a
3Ingle exception to this procedure that you have stated,
insofar as waiting until the week before the opening of
school and having everyone make application and be tempo
rarily assigned before he or she has any idea where he or
she shall attend?
None that I know of. You name the week, and it could be that
in the ten year period we may have had seven or eight days,
but the same procedure has been followed.
This procedure is followed universally, for all parents and
pupils of this district?
Thatfs correct.
Now, you stated that in settin g up this procedure you
announced publically through the press that certain
students were to go to sertain schools to make their appli
cations for enrollment and to be temporarily assigned. In
making that decision, did you take into consideration the
characteristics of the races, or the races themselves, of
the pupils of this district?
Veil, I was inferring that. If I did not make it clear in
my earlier statement — That I had personal knowledge of the
operation of the schools, the facilities, where they are, the
teachers, their fitness for their respective jobs. I knew of
the academic performance of pupils. I knew that as to white anc
Negro pupils as far back as 1927 when I was a member of this
study team, testing them. I had seen in the annual reports
246
of principals, supervisors, directors of the school
system reports as to pupil ability, achievement, promotion.
I had what I considered adequate professional background to
make a professional judgment as to the assignment of all
pupils.
Q,. As I understand it, in making, issuing, your instructions
for the making of the applications for admission and temporary
assignment, you did have pupils of the Negro race
make applications to schools at 'which pupils of the
white race did not make application, and vice versa?
A. Shat is right.
Did you give instructions to the principals or teachers of
those respective schools as to which pupils would be
assigned to the school that he or she was in charge of?
Yes. ©lat was actually in form of a directive to all
principals, giving them information, specific information, that
white pupils within certain prescribed areas as of that
moment would be directed to certain schools; they would take
their applications for admission, and after receiving the
applications, they would be assigned temporarily by the prin
cipal or the teacher, as we had instructed. The same applied
to Negro pupils.
So that in making your temporary assignments, the race or the
characteristics of the race was a factor in the making of your
decision? Is that correct?
It was the base of it.
Q. Dr. Walker, would you explain to the Court vhy, In your judgment
as an educator. If there Is any reason for, from educational
reasoning looking toward the education to be furnished to
the pupils of this district, and In exercising your
judgment in making the temporary assignments — why you have
taken into consideration the characteristics of these two
races?
A. Well, if I might, I would like to make a historical, coaraent
or two before answering that question specifically.
la this state nearly a hundred years ago following a period
of military occupation, a constitutional convention was held,
the membership of which was, as I would think of it, a new
political order. That convention had as one of its jobs
devising a constitution under the new day following the War
Between the States, and one of the sections had to do with
education.
Oils convention was in session a number of days, and it
concluded that there should be separate schools for the white
and Negro races.
Q. What was the year of that convention?
A. 1868, and I believe the constitution was adopted in 1869.
This means to me, as I review it, that this was the idea
of the membership of that convention, which had a number of
Negro citizens in its membership. It was their idea that we
should have separate schools for the races. It seems to me it
is a good idea, and I think they were night.
Under that constitution in 1888 the people of this school
district determined for themselves that they would organize
a graded school system in what was then called a separate
school district. This provided for a common school board
for the schools in the district, white and Negro. That
arrangement for the administration of schools remained in
effect or has remained in effect until this date.
Now, I mentioned earlier that in 1954 a new problem was
posed for the district. Our board of trustees detemined
that in light of the new order that had been given and its
possible clouding effect on the constitution of this state with
respect to separate schools, the superintendent should act
professionally in this business of administering education in
the assignment of pupils and organizing pupils for instruction.
I have mentioned that I had background in this school system
for that, and I have described what I have tried to do v
in the administration of this program. I think it should be
pointed out that in this syfetem there are thousands of children,
that roughly the ratio is 60 percent white and 40 percent Negro.
This may vary some one or two percent, but generally this is
the pattern, for a number of years. This district has a
sufficient number of white and Negro pupils, it has a sufficient
number of white and Negro teachers, it lias sufficient number of
supervisory and administrative staff to give each race of
children, based on their mental ability, based on the perfor
mance record that we have known for years, we have felt that
we had a very fortunate situation where ve were in a
position to go right ahead with an instructional program that
would be beneficial to both groups*
Let me be a little more specific. Teachers in their
relationship tothe child who is assigned to him, or to
them, is in fact in loco parentis. When the 1st grade
child comes to school, he comes with roughly six years of
previous learning, identifyinghimself with his friends,
selecting his associates, expressing his preferences and
letting them be known; he develops habits, he has attitudes
that have been given him by his parents and by his friends
and associates. We have assigned children to teachers who,
in place of parents, if you please, are ready, prepared,
willing, capable of serving that child as a parent and as a
teacher while the child is in the custody of the school.
This is desirable.
As my former distinguished colleague, Mr. James Gooden,
said yesterday — and I'm in agreement with him — that a
child must be made to feel at ease, be wanted, loved, to
perform at his best. Wiis holds whether the child is white
or Negro, Actually, in the early years of school life, a
teacher does many things, administers to a child in many ways
over and beyond that of simply serving as a formal director
of his learning. They help them in toilet, they help them
with their lunches, they help train them in their moral
values. And it seemed to me, and still stems to me, that
250
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
the teacher In hiB or her relationship with the child should
be one who understands the culture, who understands the
l abilities, who aspires for that child as he would for his
own child that his educational opportunities be good. This to
me then says that it would have bean a mistake for me to
have thought of anything else than to have assigned a child
to a teacher where there would be rapport and a good working
relationship.
let mo go a bit further. —
Let me interrupt at that point, Dr. Walker. Of course, in the
first six years of the age of a child the school system as
such has no control over him at all?
None whatsoever.
So that when he comes to school, a six year old for the first
time, you have to work with him and do with him as you get him
and try to give him the best education you can?
lhat is right.
All right. Go ahead.
I was going to comment next that there is a partnership rela
tionship or a reciprocal relationship between teacher and
parent. I am fimn In my belief that there is no parent, or
there was no parent In 1$5^ and up until recently I knew of
no sincere parent who would have entertained the idea, or
who did entertain the idea, that hi child should be placed
in a different school situation than to which we had assigned
him; namely, that the Negro pupils expected and their parents
I
expected to have them taught by our capable Negro teachers, and
the white parents expected the same of their white teachers.
'Hie point la that our local experience, our local facts,
— and I'm speaking for this district — could not be
ignored, and had I disregarded the educational and the
social facts that are characteristic of white and Negro
pupils, I would have been derelict in ray duty to both groups,
and injury would have cane to both.
Q. Are you speaking in that regard with respect to the education
of these people?
A. I am speaking of education of children. That is our area
of responsibility.
Q. Do you feel you are charged with the responsibility for the
social reformation of this area?
A. No, sir. Our duty is to conduct an educational program as
prescribed by the state that will provide for children who
enter the schools opportunity to acquire knowledge, usable
skills, good attitudes, and an understanding of moral values.
Q.. Mr. Walker, in connection with the education of these pupils,
would you give us a basic distinction between a pupil and a
student?
A. We refer to children in the cotranon schools, grades one to
twelve, as pupils, not as students. Students are persons -—
or we think of them as individuals who are capable of
independent study, who can more or less on self-determination
direct their learning. Pupils are those who are actually
251
subjec t to direction, discipline, management, and who are,
as I said earlier, in a relationship more like that of a child
to his parents than as a matured 3Q If-determining individuals
j ~ ' i V . \ f.' . • ..
Q, As a matter of fact, Mr. Walter, in the conduct of the
schools here in this district, legally as veil as practically,
are you and your principals and teachers serving in the
place of parents \diile the pupils are on the vay to school,
in school, and on their vay home?
A. That is my understanding, and that is our direction to
principals, to teachers, that at the time a child leaves his
home until he returns at the close of a school day, he
is fender the teacher's charge and our responsibility.
Q. Mr. Walker, even if this were not true legally, as a practical
matter would it be time?
A. Well, I think parents expect it of us. Right.
Q. In making your decision concerning the assignment of these
pupils, you have indicated you tOok into consideration the
characteristics as developed by the pupil, of the child,
before he comes to the school that he had developed over the
six years before he starts to school, and he presents himself
for education, and you in the exercise of your responsibility
have tried to assign him to a school to which he would
get the best education which this district was capable of
giving him. Bid you also take 1 rto consideration, or did
you not, the achievement and ability level as reflected by the
records of your district?
255
A« Difes, air. We have records similar to those that were
submitted by Jr. Barker that 50 back to 1550, 1940, and
possibly earlier. While not in the same form, the general
pattern of each of these sets of records over a period of
years is very similar to that which was submitted by ft*.
Barker, and, as I have indicated earlier, consistent with
the findings of the O ’Shea study in 1927? which covered
the state.
Q, Mr. Walker, you have heard Dr. Barker testify concerning the
various charts and graphs and information he has presented
as a result of the tests given in this district, have you not?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. You were familiar with that information at the time it was
compiled by nr. Barker?
A, That information is seen by me and submitted to the board
of trustees as a part of my responsibility to the board annually.
And you had this information, or similar Information,
available to you in 1954 when you first made the decision?
A, I did.
Q. — Concerning the assignment of these children?
A. 1 did, and prior to that also.
Q* And you have had the same information each year since?
A. Somewhat similar, yes, sir.
Q« Have you had anything in the information since 1954 that
would lead you to a conclusion that your judgment in this is
wrong or even questionable?
A. Caere is no basis at all for me, acting in good
faith as a person responsible for th© education of all
the youth of this district, to modify the present plan of
assigning pupils to schools.
Let m say here that the fact that there are differences
may not be a matter that any one of us vants to deal with
or face, but they are factual as we see them. I have many
esteemed friends of the Negro race. I Served approximately
500 Negro teachers and principals, supervisors. I serve
also approximately 850 white teachers and principals and
supervisors. I meet with teachers, I have advising groups
of Negroes and whites, professional and lay persons. Uhls
is not a matter for me to have animus about, to be loud in
talk. This to me is an educational problem, one to be dealt
with as objectively as I know how, as fairly as I know how,
which leads me to say that not only do I have an obligation
to a professional staff, I have an obligation to be fair
to the children and fair to the taxpayers who provide a
program of education and facilities. I am a prudent person.
We ere in a state or district that’s relatively not a
wealthy district nor a wealthy state. I must, as a responsible,
practicing school administrator, must be intelligent and
reasonable in trying to provide administrative organization,
personnel, and the use of material resource so that every
child will find in the public education service in this
district — which is mass education, more than 55,000
255
children being enrolled in these schools — they must
find — we must use these resources so that they will find
within these limits their beat opportunities to develop
themselves educationally,
. . •' K '*-***4 1
Q. Mr. Walker, as I understand what you have said then, it Is
that since fchj a has been in effect for the last ten years and
the responsibility has been yours, you have seen nothing from
standpoint,
the educational/aachievement-viBe or otherwise, from any
other factor, that would lead you to the conclusion that
& change should be made In these temporary assignments?
A. Well, In light of the experience that we have, the evidence
■
that is before us, I think we would be capricious in our
action and on an unsound basis if we had proposed to the board
* t , w|45r r ,/*V- •
of trustees that it modify in any way the organisation and
administration of schools as we have been recommending.
Q. That is from the education of the children?
A. Correct.
t ■ r , ’
Q. Mr. Walker, I want to ask you this*.
In the performance of the exercise of your duties and
responsibilities, have you called upon the responsible Negro
citizens, as well as white citizens, to analyze this school
system and make re commendations and suggestions?
A. Yes. About three and a half years ago the Board of Trustees
was very concerned about the rapid growth of the district,
the increasing tax rates, and the question as to whether or
not the district would be able to maintain its educational
services at the level that they were then operating. It
occurred to those of us In the administrative staff of the
board of trustees that the best way to look at that question
vas to actually make & comprehensive study of the facility
use and personnel us© of the public schools of this district.
Ve accordingly made a re comas ndat ion to the board that it
establish an advisory body of lay citizens, one-third of whom
would be representative of professional business life of the
community, one-third of whom would be homemakers, mothers and
fathers, without regard to occupation or professional basis
or status, and the third be composed of persons in education
who are not necessarily members of the staff of the public
school system.
This group of some 25 or JO persons, as I recall,
invited approximately 90 white citizens, using the same general
category of representation as I described far the advisory
body, and a similar ccianitteeof about 90 Negro citizens. The
suggestions for the membership of this cotanittee came from
persons outside of the school board or outside of the school
staff. An advisor, a consultant, was retained by the board
to work with the study caanlttee* tjhlte and Negro, with
membership of about 90 each, and to serve as a consultant to
the advisory body that would finally submit a report to the
board.
Now, your question was whether or not there was an
opportunity or had there been Negro and white citizens
257
advising on the operation of the schools, I believe*
Shortly after this study was under way, it was concluded that
they would be very comprehensive in their work, and this
applied to both the Negro and the white study committees.
They were given complete rein to inquire into, visit, inspect
and evaluate any part of the school operation, finance, facilities,
personnel, pupil achievement, accounting, o p whatever they
ware interested in* This was done, the product of which
was a report to the board in due time "— I*d say probably
a year later — advising the board on the best use that it
might make of personnel and facility and material resource.
<1* As a result of that study or any other studies that have been
i
conducted, has there fever been a suggestion or a recommendation
that your procedure of making tenporary assignments, talcing
applications for enrollment and making temporary assignments,
be changed in any way?
A* None whatsoever, by white or Negro.
Q. As a matter of fact, ia there any real distinction in this
district between the facilities, the courses of study, or the
courses offered to the members of the white and Negro races?
A* I testified yesterday, I believe it was, that there vas no
material or substantial difference in program or services, and
I know certainly from a standpoint of board policy and
Intent of school administration there is none*
258
Q,. in other vords, the facilities, course of study, and the
program of study is available to all, regardless of the
group to which they belong?
A. That is right.
* * * *1 ,v '. V '• " ‘V '/•W ' f ' • *v * ’ "*<tat • : '*» • - « if,-. . $ V ‘ y • / V • . * ; ‘ /.•’ * f . . - •
Q. And are there any material differences in the teachers
between the two groups?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Mr. Walker, you have heard the testimony of Mr. Barker to the
effect that ft?am the mental abilities test it appears that
.
the gap between the white pupils and the Negro pupils widens
as they progress, whereas by and large in this district the
achievement level, while there is a substantial gap, remains
fairly constant. You have heard him further testify that
it is his opinion that is a result of a super or extraspecial
effort on the part of the Negro pupils,in that they are
maintaining the seme gap, even thou^i their IQ or their
ability is falling off. Do you agree with that?
A. I agree with that, and I attribute that to a real earnest
effort on the part of teachers in our Negro schools to close
the gap, so to speak, or to overcome any limitation the child
.
may have. I believe the word that we would normally use to
describe it would be that they were over-achieving, the point
being that they were achieving at a better level or a better
rate than we would normally expect, based on their mental
ability as revealed by the testing that has been used
heretofore.
259
Q, I gather you are proud of that record?
A, I think It is an excellent record, and I think teachers
are very proud of it.
q . From an educational standpoint, you think that is desirable?
A. That they improve?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I certainly do.
If, many years in the future down the road, that gap should
close between these two groups, would that have any
effect upon your thinking as an educator?
Let me comment here, if I may. And I think I see some of
this in testimony I have witnessed here.
The debate between nature or nurture, as to which is the
prevalent factor, has been going on for some time. I do not
pose as a sociologist nor as a geneticist, psychiatrist,
psychologist, or biologist; I am a practical,practicing,
school administrator. I have been earnestly evaluating
instruction; I have been personally in classrooms;
I'm not a desksitting superintendent. If the facts
change where we have a different evidence as to mental
ability, a different evidence as to achievement, with
that information I would be compelled by duty and by
conscience to report to the board of trustees and advise
them as to the import of this in educational organisation of
the schools for which they are responsible.
260
i
q . As I understand your testimony, your concern is for the
best education possible for the children of all races, and
that is That you vill attempt to do, regardless of the social
problem?
A. That is my duty.
Q. And that is what you have been doing since you have had this
responsibility as superintendent of these public schools?
A. It certainly is, and will continue to be.
Q. And in your Judgment as an educator, the assignment procedure
that is now being followed and has b e m followed for the
last ten years is accomplishing the best education for the
children of all races?
A. I believe it finaly.
Q. Of course, throughout this district, we have a number of schools.
Vill you give to the Court roughly the number of schools and
the total number of dollars invested in our school system?
A. There are 51 school buildings; there are 56 which are attended
by white pupils and 16 of which are attended by Ifegro pupils.
There are approximately 35*000 pupils. The value of the school
plant vill well exceed thirty million dollars, I believe. I*m
not too fresh on these figures, but that is an approximate
valuation.
Q. You have heard Mr. Barker, of coqrse, testify to these charts
which show the amount which show that the average
achievement of white students is substantially above the
national norm on all the tests taken.
Q. You are familiar with that?
A. Yea, sir.
Q, You*re proud of that, are you?
A. I am. I ’m very proud of this school system. If I didn’t
appear to be too inmodest, I night say I visited at schools
all over this nation, I know a number of school men intimately,
anfl as objectively as I can be, knowing that I have a personal
identity with it, and discounting my value of that extent,
I know of no school district in this nation
that enjoys the good patronage, the excellent cooperation of
people in trying to provide for their young people, their
children, a good program of public education. I have no
apology to make for any part of It.
Q, Mr. Walker, are you familiar with the study that is made
regularly as to people over 25, the average years of
schooling that they have had?
'
A. Yas, I am.
Q. I hand you a booklet and ask if you recognise this?
A. ©lis is the U. S. Census of Population, I960, the United
States summary containing general social and economic
characteristics of the people.
Q. How, Mr. Walker, have you taken from that publication some
information concerning the years of schooling that has been
completed by adults 25 years and older in some of the
larger metropolitan areas of this country?
A. I have, and have had a chart prepared accordingly.
Q. X hand, you a document and ask If tills Is that chart?
A. This is.
MR. CAHR&DA.: We’d like to put this Into evidence.
We offer this as an exhibit to his testimony.
MR, BELLi We will aoke the sane objection, Your Honor.
THE OODKPt Vhry well. I overrule the objection.
(Saras received In evidence and marked as Defendant’s Exhibit So, 22)
please, and explain the significance of this to the Court.
(Witness complies)
A* Bile Is a chart shoving the educational characteristics of
selected large cities frc*a the I960 U. 3. Census of Population
showing the median school years completed and the percent of
persons 25 years old and over coexisting higi school or better.
I selected these cities as representative of large Metro
politan cities of this nation in the Midwest, East, and Far
west. In every instance we have here a city which,
compared to any city in Mississippi, is of great wealth
per capita and otherwise. I would like to read these In
ascending order — that is, starting with St. Louis,
Missouri, where the persons 25 years old and over in the
I960 census showed median school i©ars completed as S.8
years, Baltimore, Maryland, 8,9 yearej Louisville, Kentucky,
9.3 yearsj Cleveland, Ohio, 9.6) Philadelphia, Pennsylvania,
9.6 years) Detroit, Michigan, 10 years) Chicago, Illinois,
Q. If you will, Mr, Walker, step down over this way, if you will,
10. years! Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, 30. years] Naur York,
New York — Ifew Y°rk City, 10.lj Washington, D. C., U.7?
Los Angeles, (^ll/Ornla, 12.1.
Those represents grades or years of schooling completed.
It Is Interesting t© note that of the total population 25 years
old or over,In the city of St. Louis, Missouri, 26.5 percent
of the population has completed high school or better.
BaltiRwre, 26.2 percent] Louisville, 32.lj Cleveland, 30.1
percents Philadelphia, 30.7 percents Detroit, Michigan, 3**%
Chicago, Illinois, 35• 2 percent; Pittsburgh, 35-^1 Hew York
City, 37.4; Washington, D. C., 1*7-8; and Los Angeles, Calif
ornia, 53-4.
q , while those could be shown on another chart, so the picture
will be complete will you tell the Court, if you know, the
average grade that has been completed by the adults of the
Ja Jackson district 25 years and over?
A. 12.1 years.
Q. m other words, in this district, the average grade completed
by an adult 25 years old is 12.1 grades? Is that correct?
A. That's right. And that is an equivalent to the hi^aest on
this chart, of Los Angeles, California.
Q, That compares all the way from 8.8 of St. Louis, Missouri,
to — In other words, the adults in this district have
completed more formal education on the average than all
these metropolitan areas?
A. Excepting Los Angeles.
Q. Except Los Angeles, and it is the same?
A. The same. Equivalent.
Q. In other words, percentagewise — . Do you know the
percentage in this district that has- a hl*gi school degree or
better? q
A. I have it on the other chart. I don't recall. — 5^ percent.
Q. That's compared with ---
A. That exceeds every one on this other chart, selected large
cities.
Q. This ranges all the way from 26.3 in St. Louis, Missouri?
A. That's right.
Q. I hand you another chart and ask if you recognize this.
A. I had this prepared also.
Q. Is that a group of capital cities somewhat similar in size
to Jackson, containing the same information?
A. Not similar size, but representative of capital cities in
the Midwest, East, and South.
MR. CANNADAi We'd like to put this in evidence.
THE COURT: let It be marked and received in evidence.
(Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 23)
THE COURT: And we'll take a ten minute recess.
(Whereupon court was recessed for ten minutes)
After Recess
(Mr. Cannada continues:)
Q. Mr. Walker, with reference to the schedule that has been marked
as Exhibit 55 to the testimony of the defendants, would you
read that to the Court, if you would, and give the
explanation?
A. This is a chart showing the educational characteristics of
selected capital cities, taken from the i960 TJ. S. Census
Population Report, and as with the other chart, it shows
persons 25 years old and over as to median school years
completed and percent completing hlgi school or better.
And these are also in ascending order, starting with
Nashville, Tennessee, which has an 8.9 median school years
completed by persons 25 years of age and over. Atlanta,
Georgia, 10.5 years; Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, 10,8j
Albany, New York, 10.9; Springfield, Illinois, 11.1;
Columbus, Ohio, 11.2; Columbia, South Carolina, 11.5; Lansing,
Michigan, 11.9; Montgomery, Alabama, 11.9; Jackson,
Mississippi, 12.1.
Hie percent completing high school or better for these
same capital cities are as follows: Nashville, Tennessee,
29*5; Atlanta, Georgia, 40,5; Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, 40.8;
Albany, New York, 42.4; Springfield, Illinois, 44.3; 11
Columbus, Ohio, 44.2; Columbia, South Carolina, 46.1; Lansing,
Michigan, 49.4; Montgomery, Alabama, 49*1, Jackson, Mississippi,
54.0.
200
Q,. Now, Mr. Walker, do these percentages, with reference to
this exhibit end the preceding exhibit, include all
adults 25 years old and over, regardless of race?
A. Uiey do.
Q. A H right. In other words, It includes members of both the
white and —
— White and non-white.
Now, do you have information as to the percentage of whites
and non-whites for thes e respective cities?
From the 1962 county and city data book published by the Bureau
of Census, i960 population, I have taken the percent of the
population for each of these large cities and each of the
capital cities as to the percent of non-white in each of these.
For example, in St. Louis, Missouri, 28.8 percent of its
population is non-white; Baltimore, Maryland, 55 percent;
Louisville, Kentucky, 18 percent; Cleveland, Ohio, 28,9
percent; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 26.7 percent; Detroit,
Michigan, 29.2 percent; Chicago, Illinois, 25*6 percent;
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, 16.7 percent; New York City, 14.7
percent; Washington, D. C.-, 54.8 percent; Los Angeles,
California, 16.8 percent.
For the capital cities, Nashville, Tennessee, 37*9 percent
population non-white; Atlanta, Georgia, 58.5; Harrisburg,
Pennsylvania, 19.1; Albany, New York, 8.5 percent; Springfield,
Illinois, 6.8 percent; Columbus, Ohio, 16.6 percent; Columbia,
South Carolina, 50.4 percent; Lans^Jng, Michigan, 6.5 percent;
20T
Montgomery, Alabama, 35*3 percent! and Jackson, Mississippi,
has 35.7 percent.
Q. So that with only rare exceptions, the notable one being
Washington, D. C., Jackson has a larger proportion of
Negroes percentagewise than all of these cities we have
mentioned?
A. Atlanta, Georgia, I believe, and Nashville, Tennessee, have
slightly larger percentages.
Q. And all of these capital cities you have mentioned here ihave
population in excess of 50,000, do they not?
Uiey do, yes, sir.
Now, Mr. Walker, in your forty years of experience, starting
back with your survey in 1926 and *27 and up to today,
I believe you have stated that the pattern of the difference
between your achievement and educational levels of the two
races has remained, somewhat in the same pattern?
A. That Is right.
Q. During that period of time, have you noticed any improvement
in tiae cultural level of the Negro race?
A. I have been, as an educator, I have been responsible for an
education program involving white and Negroes since 1937*
That is 27 years. And in that 27 year period, I have seen
considerable improvement in the cultural level of our Negro
population in this district.
Q. Even though that be a fact, the pattern as to the distinction
between the education and achievement of the two races remains
substantially the same proportion?
A. Approximately the same as it has been, to my knowledge, for
27 or 50 years.
Q. Mr. Walker, in your judgment, will you tell the Court whether
there is anything positive or affirmative, as an educator
looking toward the education of these people of this
district, in making assignments or educating these children
in separate schools by race?
A. First, let me say that as I would see it,from the evidence
in the two charts we have Just seen, we have a record of a
school district where the median years of school completed
by adult population is equal to or exceeds school districts
all over the country, whether they ere segregated or desegregated.
That says to me that where you have separate schools for the
races that you have the best achievement record of your total
population, certainly better than in any of the cities that
we have identified here.
Reviewing ray experience and looking at the facts as I know
them, — and that has to do with the educability of white
and Negro youths that attend public schools — knowing the
characteristics, the educational characteristios and the
social characteristics of the whit® and Negroes who attend
schools in this district, I emcompelled as a professional
educator to the conclusion that separate schools for the
races in this district, for the reasons cited, is for the
best interest of all children, and we would be in a position
of injuring educationally, denying them \7hat is really their
best educational opportunity, white and Negro, if we did
not keep in mind that the pact experience is clear, and that
we have no basis upon which to make another judgment.
MR. CANNADA: We have no further questions.
THE COURT: Any questions by any of the other defendants?
By the intervenors?
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. LEONARD:
Q. Mr. Walker, regarding that figure for Washington, D. C.,
which, as I recall, you stated was quite high and that they had
quite a high Negro population percentage. Is that a correct
statement?
A. The percent of non-white population in Washington, D. C.,
in the i960 census was 3^*8.
Q. And of the persons over 25 who had a hi$i school education or
better, it was what?
A. 11.7 years of completed schooling.
Q. In other words, Washington, D. C. was close to your own figure,
wasn't it? It was in the higher bracket?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. And the people 25 years or older in Washington in i960 were
270
A.
Q.
a product of which? ®ie previously separate schools or the
never intermixed schools?
These are all adults who at seven years earlier would have
been 18 years of age, which is about the typical time to
graduate from high school.
And that would have been before—
— That would have been in 1955*
Before the Brown decision?
Yes, I believe that’s correct. Yes, sir.
There was testimony yesterday from Congressman Williams that
you will recall that until 195^ the schools in Washington
were segregated.
I remember.
With respect to the educating power of your schools and your
schools as separate schools, I want to read you material which
purports to costae from a book by professor Eli Ginsberg
at Columbia called THE NEGRO POTENTIAL, and ask whether this
agrees with your experience in the Jackson Schools:
"This means that only three out of every hundred graduates
from segregated Negro hi$i schools in the South are qualified
for a good interracial college."
Is three percent essentially that which you have in
Jackson?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Next, he says: "Less than one out of every hundred Negro
students in the North and West was fully qualified for college
271
admission."
A. I don’t know that either.
Q. Has your experience been that your system turns out more
Negroes proportionately who are qualified for college than
the Northern schools do?
A. I believe they do, yeo, sir, both white and Negro.
Q. Do you know who Jack Greenberg is? Have you heard his name?
A. I believe he Is an attorney for tie NAACP.
Q,. He wrote a took called RACE RELATIONS IN AMERICAN LAW, and I
would like to quote you some figures from his book and ask
whether this concurs with your experience.
He states that 2k to 4.4 percent of the Negro high school
graduates in Southern separate schools attains national
college admission standards, whereas in a survey of fifty
leading Northern integrated high schools having a thirty
percent Negro enrollment, less than two-tenths of one percent
of the Negro graduates could meet these scholarship standards."
A, I don’t know the record of the northern schools.
Q,. Well, does the southern statement agree with essentially the
type of education you are giving in Jackson?
A. May I see the statement, rattier than listen to it? I’m more
visual-minded than audio-oriented.
Q. Certainly. (Handa to witness)
A. I'm not familiar with the northern record. I would be lncliiBd
to the view that we have a considerable number of graduates of
272
high schools attended by Negroes that vould be admitted to
Q.
A.
Q.
universities and colleges anywhere in the nation.
Do you knov of any who have gone to northern colleges? Vould
this come to your attention?
I have a general recollection, but I could not name
individuals nor numbers.
I vould lilce to read to you at this time, Mr. Walker, rather
than show you, some figures concerning a city, and I want to
ask you whether you think they are as good or worse than the
results you are obtaining with Negro education in this city: —
MR. BELL: Your Honor, I think we would like to enter another
objection. This reading or entering into the record material
that hasn’t been introduced is both improper and the
relevancy is 30 far removed from this case that, notwithstanding
the earlier ruling, I think it appropriate that we object.
This is getting far afield.
MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I do not offer this material for
the truth of the statement. I offer it for the basis of a
hypothetical question to Mr. Walker, as an expert. He has
been qualified as an expert and has information on the Jackson
schools, so I do not offer this to prove what the truth is as
to these various other statements. It is merely whether it
agrees with his experience.
THE CCOHT: Very well, I will overrule the objection and
let you get it into the record, but I don’t think it has any
27?
probative force as I see it at this time* You may ask the
question, and I will let him answer.
Q. In the 3rd grade Metropolitan achievement scores: white
scores, 3.7 years; Negro scores, 2.5 years, a lag of 1.2 years
in the 3rd grade reading.
In the 6th grade reading: for white grade average, 6.9;
for Negro average, 4.7, a difference of 2.2 years in reading
at the 6th grade level.
At the 8th grade level, in reading: 8.4 is the white
average; 6.0 is the Negro average, a difference of 2.4
years in reading at the 8th grade level.
Now, my question to you, Mr. Walker, are these essentially
the standards — have you reached the same standards, or are
you more advanced in Negro education than the figures I have
just given you?
Those are in terms of grades?
©lose are in terms of grade equivalents.
I believe our records here, in terns of stanine, I would say
the pattern is somewhat similar, although the disparity may
be slightly varying.
Essentially the same pattern that you have here?
That is right.
That Is all.
THE COURT: Cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION
B3T MR. BELL:
Q,. Without reviewing all your testimony you have given over the
last two hours, am I correct in concluding that,based on all
your professional opinion and your studies and your experience
to the effect that the separate school system presently operated
here in Jackson is the best for all the people, that you have
made and plan to make no compliance with the Court's order
of March 4th until further orders of the Court are entered?
MR. CANNADA: We object to that. That has no bearing in
this lawsuit.
MR. BELL: Could I be heard? I was Abiding by the Court's
ruling of yesterday, and I don't mean to ask the same thing, but
I think, Your Honor, in view of the nature of the testimony
that we have received here this afternoon starting back with
the origination of segregation of the schools of Jackson back
in the 19th century and carrying through here with a complete
detailed picture of why the super! ntendent feels that
segregation is the best, why after the 1954 decision they
revamped their assignment procedures so as to give him the
authority of making such assignments according to these
racial characteristics — In all this testimony he has given
us of his view as to why we need to continue a segregated
basis. I think the question I asked is appropriate and
can be distinguished from the question you sustained objection
on yesterday.
275
THE COURT: The question I sustained objection to yesterday
called for something to the effect of what they had done
since —
MR. BEIL: — That's right, what had they done since
March 4th. Now, based on their testimony today, I am asking
whether they are planning to do anything unless further ordered
by the Court.
THE COURT: Well, I will sustain the objection to that.
That will be passed upon later when they submit the plan.
I don't think it is competent here now because it would stir
up, very probably, and handicap the preparations of the plan
that I have ordered to be filed by the 15th of July, or
whenever it wasj so I sustain the objection to that.
MR. BEIL: All rigit, Your Honor. We have no further
questions.
THE COURT: You may step aside.
(Witness excused)
MR. CANNADA.: The defendants rest.
MR. HELL: I think at this moment,if the defendants
have rested and before the intervenors proceed,that it
migit be helpful to attorneys for plaintiff if we could gather
together for a little conference so as to get some idea of
har this case is going to proceed, and a few other questions.
Would that be possible?
THE COURT: Well, my thought was to have the intervenora
put on what testimony they have in the Jackson case, with
your right of rebuttal. Then the Jackson case would be
concluded. Then we would take up the Leake County case.
MR. BELL: I was wondering, firBt, based on your start
this afternoon except for the one witness this morning, whether
the intervenors could give us an idea of how many witnesses
they do have and how much time, so that we could make our
plans.
THE COURT: Yes. Yes. I would like to hear their
best estimate on that.
MR. LEOHRRD: We have one witness whom we are going to
attempt to clear so that he can get out of there this
afternoon, as he has classes tomorrow. That is
Dr. Garrett, who will be the next witness. Tomorrow morning
we expect to use Dr. McGurk, probably for an hour and a half,
to be followed by Dr. Van Den Haag of New York University,
for I would say two and a half or three hours. We will have
either Dr. George, who has been ill recently, if he can come,
or, if not, we will ask to read his prior testimony. Dr. Hoy
of the University of South Carolina — This will probably be
not over a half an hour. We will follow that with Dr. Kuttner,
about an hour and a half; and possibly Dr. Whitaker following
that for about an hour.
MR. BELL: I was just trying to figure out whether
277
that meant —
MR. LEONARD: — Midday Friday, I would say.
MR. BELL: We would say at this time we don't plan to
either offer any rebuttal to this type of testimony or any
cross examination, for the reasons that we have already indi
cated, and I was wondering about making our plans for
completing the case.
And as a part of that, I am wondering, with the record
growing by leaps and bounds, whether or not we could get some
information from the court reporter as to his ability to get
to work on this any time soon. If it seems that he is already
piled up with other work, the plaintiffs would be prepared to
bring in their own court reporter so as to assure that we
would be able to have a record for the Court and for ourselves
as early as possible. Ordinarily it wouldn't be a problem,
but I imagine this testimony is going to fill quite a few
volumes.
(Off the record discussion)
DR. HENRY' E. GARRETT, called as a witness and having been duly
sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. LEONARD, for Interveners:
Q. Dr. uarrett, would you state your full name and your employment?
A. Henry E, Garrett. Well, let's see. You want — ?
Q. What is your present employment?
A. Visiting professor of education sod psychology at the
Ifaiveraity of Virginia.
Q. What Is your previous academic employment?
A. Professor of psychology at Columbia University for thirty
years.
Q, what was your position in the psychology department of
Columbia?
A. 1 was chairman for sixteen years.
Q. What is your academic background in teams of degrees?
A. Well, I have an AB and an KA, a PHD, and a DSC.
Q. What vas the first doctorate in, Dr. Garrett?
A* Psychology.
MR. LEONARD: I would like to hand to the Court an
outline of Dr. Garrett*s qualifications.
Q. Are you a member of any professional associations?
A. Yes. Shall I list them?
Q. Just fcive us some, and any offices you have held in them.
A, American Psychofcgtoal Association, past president; Eastern
Psycho tgi cal Association, past president; Psychometric
Society, patt president; Mew York State association of
Psychology, past president; American Association for
Advancement of Science, vice-president.
Q. Have you published any aadeaic studies in your field?
A. Quite . a few. I m author of eight books and fifty or so, I
suppose, papers.
Q. Are any of them general texts used in the field?
A* Yes, I have a general text in psychology* and I have two
books dealing with mental testing, Two were statistics} one
was experimental,
I show you a bibllogrejptfc Dr, Garrett, and ask if the publica
tions listed there are your publications?
A, These are a few of the ones that bear upon this particular
topl*«
Q* I®. IEGKAKD* I offer these in widens®, the bibliography
of Dr. Henry £* Garrett.
THE COURT: Let it be received,
(Haas received in evidence and marked as Intervenor*a Exhibit Bo. 5)
Q. Basically* what is your field of study?
A. Experimental psychology and what is called differential
psychology, which means the psychology of differences among
people,
<4. Are you familiar with the work that has been published in
that field?
A, I think so,
Q, Does differential psychology involve itself only with
differences in race, or any differences between any group or
type?
279
A, Differences due to race* sex, practice, variations within the
individual. All sorts of things.
How do you determine these differences?
A* Will# mostly by measurement using psychometric measures or
tests
280
Q t What ape psychometric tests?
A. Psychometric test is a problem of some sort or & series of
items that are Intended, to measure some fairly definite trait
or ability.
Q, Is intelligence one of those abilities?
A. Yea. Intelligence, of course, is so broadly used that you have
to limit your definition when you are dealing with schools and
with ability to do school work, and the intelligence tests as
used in schools are designed to measure the ability to deal with
^pfeols, words, numbers, formulas, diagrams.
Q, Hasn’t there been recently an attack upon Intelligence tests
in a number of places?
A. Well, there has been an attack on intelligence tests for the
last 50 years. They case and go. Most of them don't under
stand what the tests are supposed to do. Parents think
if the child has a high academic potential that he should
behave well, and mind his parents, and not get into troublej
but the test, as I say to them sometimes, there are a
good many people of hlgjh i intelligence who have been arrested
for forgery and for various offenses, who are in prison,
and that high academic or high potential for academic work
does not necessarily mean that a person will be Intelligent
in all, that he does, social behavior,
Q. Well, are you saying that the so-called i rtelligenc©
tests simply measure potential for study?
A. Ho. I say the intelligence tests as used in the schools
281
mcaaure the potential for work In schools and for related
•work in professions and business — lawyers, physicians,
engineers, and so on, If they did not possess this same
sort of intelligence would not be able to function*
Q. In other words, this is essentially an ability, rather than
something called general Intelligence?
A. Veil, "general"is the wrong word* I don't know of any better
word than "abstract intelligence•" I'd call it "symbolic
intelligence,1 but that doesn't carry exactly what you mean*
Q,. How, of the tests that measure this particular capability of
study, have any been made in the field of races?
A* Oh, yes, great numbers.
Q,. na» thifl been done over ary period of time?
A* Over the last 90 years.
Q.* Are you familiar with some of the work In the field?
A* I think 8 0*
Q. Do you know of any compilations which have been made bringing
thia material together?
A« Veil, the work that Dr. Shuey published in 1958 brought up
to that date «ii the work that had been done in the preceding
40 or 90 years* 240 studies*
Q. And ere you familiar with the work of Dr. Shuey?
A* Very familiar*
Q* And what were her conclusions, based upon all of those tests?
A* Veil, the general drift showed a considerable difference on
all of the psychometric measurements» 'These were not all
282
Q.
measure® of abstract ability. 'There were & number of
performance nioasureraents too, but the Negro generally tested
lower than the white, not only in childhood but in adulthood.,
and she measured soldiers, delinquents, criminals, and all
these groups tested generally lower, the Negroes, than the
whites.
Nov, was this true in the North as well as in the South?
Yea.
Has It been true to the same degree as far as you know
abroad as well as in this country?
•Chere haven*t been so very many quantities of studies abroad,
but those that I know about show this seme difference.
Were you present this mooing during the testimony of Br*
Osborne?
Yes.
Do you recall the differences to which Dr. Osborne testified 1 n
the various cities?
Yes, ■ ■ .
Is that essentially in conformity with your knowledge of the
past tests which have been made and reported on by J2r. Sbuey
and others?
I think so*
Are you familiar with the Army alpha and beta test?
A. Yes.
Q* Would you tell us something about those?
A. Well, the Ansy alpha was devised in 1917 and given to about
two million soldiers. Hie beta was a non-language test given
to about $00,000 who couldn't read or write, or do it very-
well. And the test was used as a means mainly of classifi
cation of men into various groups and selection for special
sorts of services and training programs.
How large a sample did they have?
Two million.
What were the results of those tests in terms of racial
difference?
Well, I don't think really the test was ever designed to measure
racial difference. It was used for that purpose, and I believe
it was a mistake, but it was so used. Hie Negroes did less
well than the white soldiers on the test. There was a gap
not only in the Army alpha, which was a verbal test to
measure abstract ability at a fairly low level; but also
on the beta test, which was a performance test involving
no language, the gap was as large on one as it was on the
other.
Now, is this essentially what is known as and referred to
as cultural and non-cultural, or verbal and non-verbal?
Well, verbal and non-verbal is a little different than the
other, I think. A non-verbal test would be one that does not
involve words. Performances of some sort. For instance,
typical would be putting blocks irfco holes, or building
somewhat like a jigsaw puzzle, putting the pieces together,
or counting with blocks, and things which involved very little,
284
if any, language, other than the Instructions.
Q. Ih that connection, Dr. Garrett, has It ever been asserted
that these results of these tests in World War I did not
'Vi., i . 1 - i ’ * ’4 Jt \ * * J J!1 f » v » C
shew the differences which other tests have?
A* Mall, that van done ~ ~ I ’m afraid that got into literature
and was echoed over and over again. It was a ginalok, really,
She four northern states in which the Negroes tested higher
were compared with four southern states in which the whites
® tested lowest; in other words, It took the upper end of one
curve and the lower end of another curve and ccaqpared the two,
and it was largely a reflection of the differences in
education level of the two parts of the country, I think.
$he correlation of this Army alpha test with education was .70,
which is quit© higi, meaning that the better educated Negroes
did somewhat better — they didn’t do much, a point or so —
Q but better than the 3m s well educated whites in Arkansas,
Mississippi, Georgia, and Alabama.
Q. Who raised that question?
A. Well, It was brought up by equal!tartans, cultural anthro
pologists, and was popularised by Kline berg and has appeared
in the World War n , in a little pamphlet called RACES
QJP MANKIND by two authors, Benedict and Welt fish,
V* . b ' ( • ■ ‘ i f - y M g f j ̂ .* 3
a pamphlet which incited a lot of criticism and was finally
withdrawn,
285
q . Have you seen the monograph by Dr. Kennedy and other®
on the testing of Negro elementary school children in the
Southeast?
A. Yes, I have.
Q,. . And did lyou hear Dr. Osborne testify about that this morning?
—\
A. I did.
Q. And are the results in that monograph essentially the same
as the results you are referring to in Shuey’s study and
others?
A. Very close, in spite of the fact that the authors did their
very level best to explain them away.
Q,. Do you recall that in that connection we displayed to Dr.
Osborne a graph shewing a measure of the Negro student
figures against a normal curve?
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
And at that time we discussed the question of the shape of the
Negro curve. Is there any comment you could make on that?
Well, the curve Is not a truly normal curve. What is called
the standard deviation or the spread of the curve is four
points less than it was in the white curve, and that accounts
for that bunching together and peakedness In the curve. It*s
a fancy-named thing called ’’leptokurtio. When a curve Is
peaked up, when there’s too little variability in It.—
And here, it seems to me it showed a lack of range or spread
in the Negro group. Ciat’s been found before though.
In other words, you are saying that they tend to pack up more
286
than usual?
A. Pack up around the typical measure, yes.
Q. Do you recall the testimony this morning and in the Kennedy
report to which we referred, about the different results on
different subject matters, scholastic matters?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this also typical of the general testing in this field?
A. Yes.
Q» And do you recall the differences which occurred in terms of
rate of learning, a change of rate of learning over the
period of the school years?
A. Against the ages?
Q. Against ages.
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. And is that typical of the general results in the field?
A. That is typical*
Q. And en each of these three differences, the absolute difference
which is measured in something like the Army alpha, the rate
difference which we just discussed and the subject difference,
are these pert of a pattern, so that if you match for one you
have matched for the others? Or do they independently vary?
A. I think it is a pattern. It shows much the same trend
throughout.
Q* Do you recall Dr. Osborne’s testimony about the matched
group?
A. Yes.
287
Q,. And that having matched for actual mental ability, there vas a
rate change thereafter?
A. Right.
Q. Zs that normal?
Well, that is perfectly possible, because the matching which
he did was in terms of a rather general index, and there*s
a good deal of variability within any person’s abilities or
aptitudes. As a matter of fact, within the individual, his
aptitudes will vary about 75 percent as much as any aptitude
will vary in the population) so there is a lot of variability
there.
How, what Dr. Osborne’s results showed was that despite
these matched groups, there was a fall-off in the Negro
performance with age, which is entirely possible. For example,
one person might get a good score on the mental teat because
he does well in numbers, and another one because he does well
with words. Well, if he does better on one than on the other,
that will show up when you measure that specific aptitude.
Also, there was a fall with mental age as they went on.
It’s no doubt true that those groups lost altitude.
Q. Do I understand then that this pattern you refer to is one
which can’t be measured by any single unit?
A, I don’t think so, no.
Q. In other words, merely matching children on the basis of an
IQ test or something like that doesn’t mean you have two
children who will respond the same?
288
A, No. It does not at all. Thej may do roughly the same sort
of work, but not the same work, by any means.
Q. What Is the cause of these differences, as far as you know?
A. Well, of course, two primary causes are the heredity inherent
in the child and the environmental pressures — the school,
the coBimmity, and the church, the movies, the television, and
all the rest of the influences that bear upon him.
Q.. Is there any way of determining how much each of these two factors
plays?
A. You can only do it statistically so as to draw a general
conclusion which might not be strictly true in a given case.
A favorite way has been to use twins. Identical tvias are not
only b o m at the same time, but they are also of the s l e
sex and they have Identical heredity, coming from the double
fertilisation of one ovary. Fraternal twins are brothers and
sisters who are born together, but they are not, except for
the fa ct that they are the same age, they are as different
as any children within a family can be. And what's done
here, as the geneticists have worked this out, you get a rela
tionship among these fraternal twins and among the identical
twins, and then you put it into what's called a heredlbility
index to find out how much of a difference is among your
fraternal, because theoretically all of the likeness in the
identicals la hereditary} they have exactly the same heredity.
You find how much of the difference — or the likeness} you can
take It either way — of the fraternal is due to inheritance,
269
and how ranch to environment •
d. DO they ever study twins, Identical twins, who ape raised
under different environments*
A* Y©b . that’s been done too, identical twins raised within the
same home, sod raised apart*
Q. What is the purpose of such a study*
A. To see how mich the environment can do.
ft. You a w saying that If thay a w wised in the same eiwiroment
they will be close together, and If they are raised In
different environments they —
A, Theoretically, you would expect children raised in the same
home, if they’re identical twins, to be more nearly iglk»
than identical twins who are reared in different parts of
the country or in different families.
Q,. Are they*
A. Yes. Those who are reared together vary on the average of
about five points, one ftfom the other. Unrelated children
will vary fifteen points. Children, twins, who are reared
apart in different circumstances will differ about eight
points. And so environment, apparently, is able to raise the
five to eight) that’s all it can do.
q . Are there any other studies which are made to determine this
type of causation? Can you equate environmental factors la
children and then study it?
A* You really can’t, and it’s been done with rats because you
can control rats, and you can get a whole series of generations,
and in one of the best studies I know of, that in which
seven generations of rats were bred, bright rats and
dull rats. They separated them into two species, actually
by breeding the bright rats inter se, among themselves, and
the dull ones; and the result was that they had two separate
species.
A. Up to the fifth generation. After the fifth generation there
was no further separation. But they had what really amounted,
to these experimenters, to two species of rats, bright rats and
dull rats. And it was all due to heredity. Environment was
exactly the same.
Q. In other words, the mentality of the rats proved to be heritable?
A. Heritable and extremely effective, in separating.
MR. BELL: May I suggest we have a continuing objection,
Your Honor. I'm having a little difficulty connecting the
rats and the school cases we are trying. Could we ask that
counsel explain?
MR. LEONARD: I'd be very happy to explain.
Your Honor, we're concerned with the fact that there is
no serious dispute whatever — in fact, there isn't any
factual as well as legal dispute from plaintiffs — that
enormous differences in educability exist between the white and
Negro students in the Jackson schools; in fact, between white and
Negro students in any schools. Now, if this is the fault of
the schools, If a change in the school environment, the
teachers or something else, can cure or close this gap,
then since we are here equally before this Court they are
entitled to ask for the kind of relief that will close it
because no one denies that these children have equal rights
to the best possible education for themselves. Therefore,
’What we are trying to show now is that these differences do
not result from the Bchool, they d© not result from the
social pattern which exists in the State of Mississippi or
any other state* but fundamentally these differences we are
discussing, the ones which we have shown on these charts, are
differences which are Inate in the individual and the the amount
of change which can be made by changing either the curricula
of the school or the neighborhood is so minute that separate
education is the only education which is going to take car© of
the differences, because you can't change them back. In other
words, I am now trying to show that these differences are
heritable) they are not caused by the schools or by the homes.
THE COURT j I am going to overrule the objection and let the
testimony go in. I think the objection goes to the weight more
than it does to admiadbility. If it has no weight, has no
relevancy, certainly it will be disregarded) but at this stage
) >. proceedings* I can't tell what weight or what competency
it is entitled to. So I overrule the objection and will let the
testimony go in.
291
292
(Mr. Leonard continues*^
Q« Dr*. Garrett, is there a teat known as the S.P.8.S.I.?
A. Shat Is a society*
It ia what?
A. It is a society, not a test,
Q* What is the society?
A* The Society for Psychological Study of Social Issues,
Q. I see. Do you know of any studies which it has made in an
effort to equate social and environmental factors being
involved in racial differences?
A, Well, the president of that society wrote a paper in which he
said that it was well known from many studies that when the
environment of Negro and white children was made more nearly
identical that they drew closer and closer together.
I answer* j that by assembling the many studies,which
were altogether six, in literature in which a really serious
<*t tempt had been made to equate the environment, and I found
that the drawing together wasn’t there, that they 6rew
together in some instances & little bit more in random groups,
but that the effect was negligible. I concluded the paper
by saying that instead of the evidence being overwhelming,
there wasn’t any.
you
<4. I s W a h a t purports to be a pamphlet, "The 3.P.S.3.I. and
Racial Differences," by Henry E. Garrett, and ask If that Is