Evers v. Jackson Separate Municipal School District Transcript 1
Public Court Documents
May 18, 1964

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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Evers v. Jackson Separate Municipal School District Transcript 1, 1964. 73d20f4e-b19a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/df5c8b3d-e3fa-465d-a071-7c18dcbd1ce7/evers-v-jackson-separate-municipal-school-district-transcript-1. Accessed July 30, 2025.
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|« ill rfiE UIOTED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR SHE SOOTHS® DISTRICT CF MISSISSIPPI, JACKSON DIVISION ’ ' W darreil jffisxam evers and hsebe u e evers, alnars, fey MEDGAR V. EVERS and MRS. M&HLEE B. EVERS, their parents and next friends, and SHIRIESr D, BAILEX, VERHA A. BAILEY and 53CMAS J. BAXLE5T, minors, by SAMOEL BAXLEY, taeir father and next frtrad, «aa ' ” . ■ EAIOINE THOMAS and GAROEXH THOMAS, minors, by HRS. SASHECm THOMAS, their mother and next friend, • m i fc'ftfoy- lv. !vy'-:** VIIUS H. LOGAN, minor, fey MRS, A. W, E. LOGAN, his mother and next friend, and ____ ■ . H1F2K JEROME SINGLETON, minor, by MRS. EDNA MARIS SIISHETOK, his mother and next friend, and ' ,, ainor, by MRS. ELIZABETH WHITE, her mother and next friend, . ■ , ■A/' . Plaintiffs,Versus JACKSON MD3SICIPAL SEPARATE SCHOOL DISTRICT;, IQPJECT P, WALKER, Superintendent of Jackson City Schools) LESTER A1VIS, Chalnaan; C. H, K2MG, Vice-Chairman) LAMAR NOBLE, Secretary) W, G* MIZE and J. V. UNDERWOOD, Members, .Defendants, U ' W PRIMOS, CLAUDIA PRIM03 and GALE PRBIQS, minors, by ALECK PRIMQ0, their father next mend, and ALECK HOMOS, individually, and H i p E &AX53E PIERCE PRIMQS, individually, D02LE GOODMAN and GAYLE GOODMAN, minors, by JAMES GOCdSAN, their father and next friend, and JAMES GOOIMAN, individually, and ) ) Civil Action No< J?79 -■ :̂g"' Jiff* ’ 1 * ALEX LITTLE, JR., minor, by WILTON LITTLE, his father and next M e n d , and WU1TON LITTLE, individually, and MRS. WILTON LITTLE, individually, and JOHN HAROLD SPEARS, minor, by MRS. JOY SPEARS, his mother and next friend, and MRS, JOT SPEARS, individually, WILLIAM CHRISTOPHER SEXES, minor, by MRS. W. C. SEXES, his mother and next M e n d , and MRS. W. C. KEYES, individually, and JAR CAROL HELLS and PARKER HELLS, minora, by CHARLES HILTS, their father and next friend and CHARLES KILLS, individually, and MRS. CHARLES HILLS, individually, and LDfDA HERRSN ERRINGTON and HOWARD ERRINGTON, minors, by MRS. JAMES ERRINGTON, their mother and next friend and MRS. JAMBS ERRIROTON,individually, and TOM GATES, V. T. OATES, JR., and BEVERLY GATES, minors, by W. T. GATES, their father and next friend and W. T. OATES, individually, and DANNY GATES, minor, by W. J. OATES, his father and next friend, and V. J. OATES, individually, and MRS. W. J, GATES, individually and JCHHNY WALKER, CATHY WALKER and JIM WALKER, minors, by HIRAM WALKER, their father and next friend, and HIRAM WALKER, individually, and MRS. HIRAM WALKER, individually, and HOWARD COON and SUSAN COON, minors, by EDWARD COON, their father and next friend, and EXWAKD COON, individually, and MRS. EDWARD COON, Individually, and LYNN HUTCHENS and A1YCE HUTCHENS, minora, by MRS. MARJORIE HUTCHENS, mother and next friend, and MRS. MARJORIE HUTCHENS, individually, and SAMMY GARRETT and BETTY GARRETT, minors, by HOWARD GARRETT, their father and next friend, AND HOWARD GARRETT, individually, and MRS. HOWARD GARRETT, individually, and LENDA. PAYNE, minor, by HOYT PAYNE, her father and next friend, and HOYT PAYNE, individually, and MRS. HOYT PAYNE, individually, and MARGARET ANN WHITT and *0TH JIXELLE WHITT, minors, by J. A. WHITT, their father and next friend, and J, A . WHITT, individually, and MRS. J. A. WHITT, individually, And TOMMY CASE and PRANK CASE, minors, by PRANK CASE, their father and next friend, and FRANK CASE, Individually, and MRS. PRANK CASE, individually, and JERRY LEA REYNOLDS, minor, by SEAB REYNOLDS, the father and next friend, and SEAB REYNOLDS, individually, and MRS. SEAB REYNOLDS, individually, Interveners. ) » ) ) ) ) ) ) ) APPEARANCES! Honorable Derrick A. Bell, Jr., Attorney, 10 Columbus Circle, New York, 19, New York; Honorable Jack Young, Attorney, 115i N. Ffcriah Street, Jackson, Mississippi; For Plaintiffs. Honorable Joe T. Patterson, Attorney General for State of Misaissippi, Jackson, Mississippi; Honorable Dugas Shands, Assistant Attorney General, Jackson, Mississippi; Honorable Thomas H. Watkins, BOO Plaza Building, Jackson, Mississippi; Honorable Robert C. Cannada, 700 Petroleum Building, Jackson, Mississippi; For Defendants. Honorable Dan H. Shell, 340 First National Bank Building, Jackson, Mississippi; Honorable R. Carter Pittman, P. 0. Box 891, Dalton, Georgia; Honorable George Stephen Leonard, 1750 K Street NW, Washington, D. C.; For Intervenors. INDEX TO CIVIL ACTION NO. 3379 JACKSON DIVISIOW WITNESSES Direct Cross Examination Examination FOR PLAINTIFF: Samuel Bailey Myrlie B. Evers Edna Marie Singleton Elizabeth White Kathryn Thomas Kirby P. Walker aaitnTr Joseph E. Barker John Bell Williams James Gooden Win. S. Milborne Kirby P. Walker 7 (Deft.) 15 (intervr. )17 22 (Intervr. )24 28 (Deft) 32 34 (Deft) 36 38 (Deft) 41 44 (Deft) 87 (Deft) 90 (Intervr)123 129 (Deft) 148 (intervr)159 (Deft) 170 162 (Intorvr)178 (Deft) 230 (Intervr) 269 274 Redirect Examination 42 89 INTEHVENGR: R. T. Osborne Wm. S. Milborne (Recalled) Henry E. Garrett F. C. J. McGurk Ernest Van Den Haag Robert E. Kuttner Halford S. Whitaker 185 224 277 304 334 417 492 EXHIBITS Plaintiffs No. 1 Interrogatories 45 Plaintiff’s No. 2 Answer to Interrogatories 45 Plaintiff’s Ho. 3 Ltr., 8/15/64, M. W. Evers 87 Plaintiff’s kNo. 4 Anver to Interrogatories in Civil Action 3312 Jackson 531 Defendant’s No. 1 Chart 93 Defendant’s No. 2 Chart 95 Defendant’s No. 3 Chart 98 Defendant’s No. 4 Chart 101 Defendant’s No. 5 Chart 103 Defendant’s No. 6 Chart 104 Exhibits: INDEX Continued Civil Action No. 3379 Defendant * s No. 7 Chart 106 Defendant’s No. 8 Chart 108 Defendant’s No. 9 Chart 110 Defendant1s No, 10 Chart 112 Defendant's No. 11 Chart 114 Defendant's No. 12 Chart 115 Defendant's No. 13 Chart 116 Defendant's No. 14 Chart 117 Defendant'a No, 15 Chart 118 Defendant's No. 16 Chart 119 Defendant's No. 17 Chart 120 Defends*'s No. 18 Chart 121 Defendant's No. 19 Chart 122 Defendant's No. 20 'Investigation of Public School Conditions," Report of Sub- comnittee, 84th Congress, 2nd Session 133 Intervenor's No. 1 Qualifications, Dr* R. T» Osborne, with attaohements 186 Intervenor's No. 2 Monograph by R. T. Osborne 189 Intervenor's No. 3 Intervener1* No* 4 Defendant*s No, 21 Defendantss No, 22 Defendant*a No* 23 i Intervenor’a No* 5 Intervener*s No, 6 Intervenor*s No, 7 Intervener*s No. 8 Intervenor'e No. 9 Intervenor’s No, 10 Intervener*a No. 11 and Achievement of Negro Elementary School Children in Southeastern United Stat®3" Article from NEW YOHJI TIMES 201 218 Book by M* V. 0 sShea Chart Chart 234 262 264 Qualifications, Dr. H. E. Oarrett "The 3PSSI & Racial Differences" 2 pps. from THE MANKIND QUARTERLY, Apr11-June *64 Qualifications, Dr. P.C.J, McGurk 5 pps. from U.S, NEWS & WORLD REPORT "Negro vs. White Intelligence - An Answer" 332 Qualifications, Dr. Ernest Van den Haag 336 279 293 294 305 330 INDEX continued Civil Action lto. 3379 Intervener's No. 12 Intervener's No. 13 Intervener's No. 14 Intervener's No. 16 Intervener's No. 16 Intervener's No. 17 Xnfcervenor'a No. 18 Intervener*a No. 19 Intervener's Nb. 20 Intervener’s No. 21 Intervenor's No. 22 Intervener's Ho. 25 Intervenor's Mo* 24 Intervener's No. 25 Intervener's Ho. 26 Intervener's No. 27-a Intervencap's No. 27 *b Qualifications, Dr. R. £. KUttner 4l8 "The Inheritance of Mental Ability” "Twins Brought up Apart" "The Inheritance and Nature of Extraveraion" 444 "The Herldltary Abilities Study* Herldltary Components in a Psychological Test Battery” 447 26-page article from FEELDIANA 472 Pig. 1 and articles from SCIENCE 477 "Amentia in the East African" 478 "Human Genetics" 479 r*Hhe ftwaf n of the Kenya Native" 484 "Brain of the East African Native” 489 Excerpts from Transcript of Proceedings, Civil Action NO. 2316, Southern District of Georgia Qualifications, Dr. H. S. Whitaker Sample EEG-. child Sample EEG, adult "Introduction to Study of Electrophysiology of the African Negro,” English translation Same as above, in French 495 494 497 497 504 504 * * * * * 2 BE IT REMEMBERED that on the l8th day of May, 1964, there came on for hearing at Jackson, Mlsaleslppl, in the Jackson Division of this Court, before the Honorable S. C. Mize, United States District Judge for the Southern District of Mississippi, the above-styled and numbered cause,and the following proceedings were had and entered of record, to-witi THE COORTx I don't believe these cases have been consolidated, but as I recall it, it was agreed that all the evldenoe that is to be taken in this case, so far as Is relevant, relevant to the Issues In the other two cases, would be considered as a part of the evi dence In each one of those cases. Is that the under standing? MR, HELL: Yes, sir. MR. WATKINS: Yea, sir. MR. BELLt Yes, Your Honor. I had not understood that the three cases had been consolidated, and were going to be heard one after the other, and It would be agreeable with us to have the Biloxi case follow the Leake County case here In Jackson rather than in Biloxi. THE COURT: And all the evidence, aa far as applicable , 2 then apply to all three cases* HR. BELLt Yes, sir. MR. WATKINS: Yes, sir, that la all right. MR. SHELL: I would like to present two attorneys who are not members of this bar and ask that they be permitted to participate In this case: Mr. George Stephen Leonard of the Washington Bar, and Mr. Carter Pittman from the Dalton, Georgia, Bar. THE COURTl Very well. MR. SHELL* I hare filed a motion to add intervener parties. It does not ask for any delay, merely names additional lntervenors and requests that they be allowed to come In and adopt the answer of the lntervenors already filed In the lawsuit. MR. BEIL: We would make the same objection to this motion as we made originally to the motion to Intervene for the same reasons we gave there. THE COURT: I will overrule the motion and let the — overrule the petition for additional lntervenors and let it be filed. MR. SHELL: I have the order, If Your Honor would like It now. THE COURT: All right. MR. SHELL: It has been called to my attention that you overruled the motion. I think you meant overrule counsel's objection THE COURTi Yes, for the seme reasons I gave In overruling the original objections. What a&ys the plaintiff In this case? MR. BELL: We should like to make a very short and brief opening statement. THE COURT: Are you ready? MR. BELL: We are ready. THE C<XJRT: What says the defendant? MR. WATKINS: Jackson School District and the Biloxi School District are ready. MR. SHELL: The interveners are ready. MR. J. E. SMITH: Leake County School Board is ready. THE COURT: What about BllOxi? MR. WATOKS: Biloxi is ready. MR. HELL: The plaintiffs feel that the coming to trial today of these cases Is rather an historic day for Mississippi and ve feel, also, that the trial date, May 18, Is also significant because It vat Just ten years ago yesterday. May 17, that the United States Supreme Court handed down Its decision In Brown vs* Board of Education, which for the very first time faoed the Issue: Doest segregation of children In public schools solely on the basis of race, even though the physical facilities and other tangible factors may be equal, deprive the children of the minority group of equal educational opportunities? Paced vtth this qimetion, the Supreme Court handed down the answer) "We believe it does. We conclude that in the field of public education the doctrine of 'separate but equal'has no place. Separate educational facilities are inherently unequal.v I think the significance of today's date la not simply historical. Since the desegregation decision in 1954 there has been a great deal of desegregated facili ties other than public schools, all of such desegregation coming about based upon the decision Brown versus Board of Education. This has occurred in every state, desegregation in public transportation, libraries, courthouses, recreational facilities, hospitals and many others. In Mississippi, based on the Brown decision, there has come about desegregation in the transportation facilities, at the University of Mississippi and in the library and recreational facilities here in Jackson. All of this followed the repudiation of the earlier Pleasy v. Ferguson doctrine that separate could be equal, and all came about under the decision in Brown v. Board of Education. When we come to the fact of schools, we see also that there has been sene desegregation in every state except Mississippi. In accomplishing this, there has been a great deal of litigation over thelast ten years. There have been at least two hundred cases all aimed at desegregating school districts. It is no secret, I don't think, that the SAACP has supplied the lawyers in virtually all of these cases, and In the course of taking these cases through the courts we have been faced with every possible Issue involving desegregation and every reason has been given as to why desegregation orders should not be entered. All issues, I indicate, have been raised, including those raised by the defendants here. Our arguments to the Court, or our briefs, will be based on our decisions, and we. promise the Court we will give it the benefit of all the expertise ve had in this field in our arguments and briefs and presentations. What do the plaintiffs hope to prove in this trial? Ve hope, of course, to indicate and prove the allegations of our complaint, that the plaintiffs are proper parties to bring this suit, that they are entitled to represent not only themselves but the class they represent, of all Hegro parties and children. We hope to be able to show that the schools in the City of JackBon and in other situations are in truth segregated and because of this segregation the plaintiffs are entitled to the relief which they pray for here. We in short hope to show to the Court that the plaintiffs are entitled to the injunction that they seek in the complaint, making final what this Court has already ordered by preliminary injunction the defendants to do, and that is to eliminate race as a criteria for pupils and teachers in the operation of the Jackson schools* Shank you, Your Honor, We are prepared to call our first witness. We call Samuel Bailey. SHE COURT: Let all the witnesses come around and be sworn at one time. ■ . ‘ • *V (All witnesses were duly sworn) SAMUEL BAILEY, called as a witness and having been duly sworn, testified as followsi DIRECT EXAMINATION By MR. BELL: Q. Will you state your full name, please? A. My name Is Samuel Bailey. Q. Residence? A. 1502 Florence Avenue# Q. Where is that? A# Out in West Jackson. Q. How long have you lived in Jackson? A* Twenty-three years. Q,. How long have you lived in Mississippi? A. Forty years. Q,. And your race? A. American Negro. Q. Where are you employed, Mr. Bailey? A* Assistant manager for the Universal U f a Insurance Company. 8 Q. A. Q* A. Q. A, Q- A. Q. A. Q. A. A. Q. A. A* Q. A. Q. A. Q- Where is that located? 1072 lynch Street. Is that In Jackson? Jackson, Mississippi. Is that a Negro Insurance company? . Negro insurance company. Do you have any children? I have three children. Are any of them presently attending the Jackson schools? 1 have two. What are their names and ages and what grades?yj * Verna A* Bailey, 11th grade, and Thomas James Bailey, 10th grade. Where are they attending school? Jim Hill Senior High, What is that? Jim Hill High School. Is this a Negro school? A Negro school. Are there any white people there, to your knowledge? NOt to wy knowledge. White teachers or professional faculty there? None to my knowledge. Are you satisfied or dissatisfied with this arrangement of the school to which your children are assigned? 9 A* I am dissatisfied. Q. Have you ever made any effort to contact the School Board concerning your dissatisfaction? A. Yes. In 1955 we filed a petition to the Jackson School Board. Q. Who is "ve"? A. A. Q. Some parents and myself and about 75 or 80 parents. All Negro., to your knowledge? All Negroes, to wy knowledge, Did you receive any response from the school board at that time? Never received a reply from the school board. Do you know whether or not the Board received your petition? I am positive they did. We had a registered receipt, with a return receipt signed. Was there any other response to your petition? Nbt by the school board. Was there any other response by anyone? Well, the newspaper picked it up, and the name and address, where each person worked that signed the petition, and the pressure cam and a whole lot of the parents had to withdraw their names. MR. WATKINS* If it please the Court, we object to that. That la a conclusion on the part of the witness, and we object to his testifying with respect to an alleged petition. The petition would be the best evidence. 10 MR. BELL: Your Honor* wo would say we are not introducing the testimony to show the truth of the matter* in the petition. The only truth we are trying to Indicate is that he had made an attempt to contact the. - •' ■ . ' . .t' i . 5 ' * r. . i v ; w \ ./* t { ̂ >• V. L; Board concerning hia grievances at an early date and received no response. It has nothing to do with what was in the petition. MR. WATKINS: Your Honor, he made the statement that pressure was brought on certain petitioners and they dropped their names. That is a conclusion on the part of this witness. THE COURT* Yes, unless he knows of his own personal knowledge, I would not take that into consideration. MR. KELL: let me rephrase the question. MR. WATKINS: Excuse me. Counsel has said that he is not trying to prove the petition by this witness, and we move to exclude all the testimony of this witness with reference to the petition. THE COURT: I will overrule that objection. Of course, the petition would be the best evidence of what it con tained, but the fact it was filed, and so forth, I think i* competentj so I overrule the objection. Are you a member of the NAAOP? MR. WATKINS* Excuse me, Counsel. Your Honor, I have 11 to make another objection on this point. There is a petition mentioned in the pleadings, bat It was a petition long after 1955. There is no petition in the pleadings involving an alleged 1955 occurrence about which this witness is testifying, so we strenuously object to any evidence with reference to that petition which is not produced, neither have there been any pleadings In con nection with It, and it is a brand new issue that is being attempted to be Injected. THE COCfRT: Overrule the objection. I think the issue is whether or not there is any discrimination because of the race, and the fact that he filed a petition with the school board is competent evidence — that an application waa made to the school board. As to the contents of it, the document Itself would be the best evidence of the contents, but the fact that it was filed is I think competent. I adhere to my ruling, and you may have a standing objection to any questions along that line, and it la overruled. Were you a member of the HAACP in 1955? I waa. Were you an officer of the organisation at that time?' , t ii » I was an officer. To your knowledge, were many or moat of the persona who signed this 1955 petition members of the HAACP? To my knowledge, most of them was. How, if any of those persons received responses, was it or not their duty to report It to you as an officer of the NAACP? 12 A, That's correct. Q. Did you receive such reports? A. I received several reports and several came to the office to remove their nawa. • • ME. VATKUB: We object to that as hearsay, what this man was told. THE COCOT: Sustain the objection to the report he received. Anything he knave of his cum knowledge he can testify to. Anything anybody said would be hearsay. ME. HELL: I think there Is an exception to the hearsay rule to the effect that aa an officer of the organisation he can testify to the reports he received. Now, of course, that would not be competent as to the truth of the reports, but as to the fact that he was In this position and did receive reports, I believe the law is fairly clear he would be able — and it would be competent to the fact that having helped obtain the signatures, having forwarded the petition, that he did receive reports from soots of the signers, as to what those reports were. THE Bwfi* I will sustain the objection and exclude it from consideration, but if you want to build the record on it further, you may do so. I think the reports would be hearsay and the best evidence would be the witness who 13 made the reports, so I will exclude tt from consideration, but it vill remain in the record as your offer of proof. VR. BELL: All rt#it. We vill make a simple offer under Rule kj to the effect that if he had been permitted to testify his testimony vould be to the effect he did receive reports from soma of the signers and they had received phone calls and things from their employers to the effect they should withdrew, and as a matter of fact many did request their names be withdrawn from the petition. That would be the testimony. THE COURT: Very veil. Q. How, Did you ever make any subsequent proteat to the Board of Education here in Jackson? A. In 1962 in August ve filed a petition again to the school board. Q. What was the result of this petition? A. Hever had any reply from that petition. Q. Are you a plaintiff In this suit? A, I am. On whose behalf do you sue? A. I represent the parents of my children and all the children in the state. Q. What do you hope to obtain by this suit? A. A better education for all citizens of Jackson, not only Hegroes but white too. 14 Q. How Is tills going to be done? A. The kids can grow up together and they'd know each other better, and when they get grown they won't have the hatred that is building In the state today. The kids can play in the yard together now, five or six years old, and you never hear any race hate, but If they grow older then the race hate will cone. But by being In school together, It would help every body In the State of Mississippi and America too to desegregate the public schools, ttiey'd know each other better. They'd be athletes, learn each other. After they graduate they are brothers, but they wait until they're out of college to know each other and hatred has built up so bad in the South It makes It a bad thing. Cj. Were you ever advised by the Board of your right to request a transfer of your child to the white school? A. Never have. Q. If you had made such a request and It had been granted, would you then be satisfied as far as this school Is concerned? MR* WATKINS* We object to that as a hypothetical question. There Is no basis In fact. Be la asking whether he would have been satisfied If he had done something he didn't do. THE COURTi I will overrule the objection. Q. Go ahead. A. No, I wouldn't be satisfied If they Just let one of my kids in because he would be under such pressure. The only setts fact ton would be if every American be entered into the public school of his choice. MR. BELL? Ve have no further questions. CROSS EXAMINATION HT MR. WATKINSs Q,. I believe you stated thatyour business was that of an insurance company? A. That is correct. Q. What position do you hold with it? A. Assistant manager for the Universal Life Insurance Company Q. I believe you stated it was a Negro insurance company? A. I didn't say "Nlgrah." I said "Negro insurance company." Q. Are all of the policy holders Negroes? A. No, I don't think I could make that true statement, because we are out of California. Q. Are all of the policy holders in Mississippi Negroes? A. As far as I know of. Q. Are all of the agents in Mississippi Negroes? A. That la correct. Q. Are all of the officers in Mississippi Negroes? A. That is correct. Q. And are all of the employees in Mississippi Negroes? A. That is correct. 16 Q. I believe you also stated that you were a member and officer of the NAACP? A. That Is correct. Q. And you know of your om personal knowledge, don't you, that the NAACP brought this lawsuit? A. Ihat is correct. Q. They suggested It and financed It, didn't they? A. They ditto*t suggest It. They financed It. We suggested and they financed. Q. What promises have they made to the parents of the students who appear as plaintiffs In the suit? A. Rephrase that. Q. What premises have they made to the parents who appear as plaintiffs In this lawsuit? A. No promise to me. Q. What cash remuneration have they paid to the parents of the plaintiffs in this lawsuit? A. I can speak only for myself. None to oqrself. Q. Nov, you seem to know a lot about what the others do and say on other matters. Don't you know about that? A. I don't know about that. Q. Just who do you represent In this lawsuit? A. At the beginning I represented Shirley Bailey, Thomas James Bailey, Verna A. Bailey, and all the Negroes in the Jackson School District. IT HR. WATKUBi I believe that la all. THE COURT» Any redirect? MR. BELLi No, air. THE CODRTi Any questions by any of the other defendants? MR. SHELLs We'd like to aak some questions. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. limKBDi You stated the purpose of this ault was your hope to obtain a better education fen* all children? A. That la correct. Q. And you stated that you believed that this could be accom plished by mixing the ohildren in aahoola? A. That's correct. What la your basis for that? The basis of that is In the other states it works so well. I travel over different states, not only Mississippi. Q. Where has it worked so well? A. Worked in Tennessee; worked In Georgia; didn't work too well In Alabama, but I think they only have eleven down there. It worked in Missouri, it worked in Kansas; it worked ---- Q. Now, when you say it "worked,” what do you mean? A. The kids, they are desegregated without any fanfare. Q. You said a better education. What have you done to find out whether they are getting a better education? This Is your statement. 18 A. Well, X have three kids In school, and the curriculum is just not there. Q. Are you complaining that the Negro schools in Jackson, Mississippi, then are inferior to the white schools? A. That is right* Q,. I thought you were claiming that unless they were mixed they were inferior Is it simply your claim that they are a different school and that they are inferior? A* They ere a different school. Q. And this would be cured if you mixed the two together? A, Not all, but it would be approximately 95 percent better. Q. Now, tell me, seriously: If It could be shown in this suit In this case that your three children could be educated better in a separate school, which would you want — & mixed school or a separate school? A. I always want a mixed school. Q. You don’t care whether they get a better education or not in a separate school? A. You can't get a better education in a separate school* Q. Do you have any basis for making that statement? Do you have any educational background? A. The facts and figures show that on the average, per ratio, the Negro kid Is two or three years behind the whites* 19 Q. Ia that true when they start In school? A, I do n’t know about the start, the first grade. Q. Well, vould you accept the figures that show that they start about the sane and that they drop back slowly, and that they do this In mixed schools as veil as separate? MR. HELL: Your Honor, ve're going to have plenty of testimony on this. I think our witness has given his opinion as to why he wants to desegregate, and I don’t think he should be subjected to all the details, figures and statistics that he can't possibly have knowledge of and that counsel for defendant certainly does. THE COURT: Overrule the objection. He la on cross examination. NR. IEQHAHD: The door was opened by requesting his opinion, to which no objection was made, ' Q. How, you stated the children play together until they get to be five or six? A. That * s correct. Q. And that after that they tend to drift apart and play separately? \ A. That's correct. Q,. And what do you blame this on? A. Could be on the parents, teachers. Q. You don't think It could be on nature? A 0 I don't think it's on nature. ' • Vi V l r f c * s, . A;' ' A ■' V 20 Q. Do you have any basla for saying that? A* I grew up with white kids, and swam together, Ve was 19 or 20 and ve didn't have any race difference. That vas In the ?0*b . We swam, boxed, fight, and the parents didn’t get mad. When we had a fight, it vas all over it. Q. That *s ri#it, but when you got up on the stand and you were asked your race, you said you were an American Negro. Right? A. Right. Q. You are perfectly conscious of that. Right? A. Rigit. Q. You are not ashamed of it, are you? A. Never will be* Q. All right* And all that time you were playing, you were perfectly conscious of the fact there were white boys and there were Negro boys? A. That's r±j£it. Q.. Ne one had to be better than the other. Right? A. Oh, no. No one would be better. Q. All right. Nov, answer me then what you said that this whole country would be improved by putting these children together. I just want to know why you say this if it Isn't your own feeling about it. A. Well, what I said, If all the nations in the TJ. N., that is the only thing they can fight, the discrimination in the Waited States. When an ambassador goes from America to foreign countries, they have a problem on race. You say, why? What la the reason? The reason ts because we practice discrimina tion against our people. Most of the people of the age in Africa -- Q. Veil, you*re talking about adults. We are here talking about children. A. That's right. Q. We're not talking now about the recognition legally and politically and otherwise of adults. We're here talking about the education of schools. Is that your understanding of this ease? A* That's right. . Q,. You are not here trying to remedy the political rights of any adult in Mississippi? A. No, I'm not trying to do that. Q. You are here trying to get the best education for the children? A. That's aorrect. Q. And if I can show you during the course of this case that twenty times as many children from southern separate schools can go to college and succeed as go from the mixed schools in the north, would It change your opinion? A. No, it wouldn't change my opinion. , Q. Thank you. That is all the questions. MR. BSLLt No further questions, Your Honor. (Witness excused) MYTrr.Tr: B. EVERS, called as a witness and haring been duly sworn, testified as followsi DIRECT E X A M M S I C W m MR. HELL: Q. State your full nans? A. Mrs. Myrlie B. Evers. Q. You are a resident of Jackson? A. I am. Q. In the State of Mississippi? A. Yes. q . How long hare you been a resident of the State of Mississippi? A. I have been a resident of this state all of my life, thirty- one years. Q. Do you have any children? A. I have three. Q,. Where are they attending school? A. Two are attending school at Christ the King on lynch Street. Q. is thia a Catholic school? A* It Is. Q. And It is not a part of the public school system. Is that right? A. It is not. Q. Under what circumstances, If any, would you be willing to send your children to the public schools of Jackson? A. I would be willing to send my children to the public schools of Jackson provided they were desegregated. Q. Have you ever segregations’ 25 made a protest to the Jackson School Board about A. Q. A protest was made In the year 1962 in the form of a petition. D id you sign that petition? I did not. Did you receive any advice from the board that you could apply for transfers for your children? 1 did not. Are you a plaintiff in this suit? X am* Why are you a plaintiff in this suit? X am a plaintiff in this suit. X entered as a plaintiff in this suit vith my deceased husband, Medgar Evers. We ore both» *. native MlsstBBippiaas. We grew up and were schooled in seg regated schools. Be felt and I now feel, as X have always felt that segregation is wrong! and since we are native Mlsslssippiaos and since the Supreme Court ruled that segregation was illegal we took it upon ourselves to try to play a part in righting this wrong. We entered this suit, not only for my children, but for all of the children In the City of Jackson, all of the Negro children la the City of Jackson. As I said, I feel that it Is wrong. I feel that the children do not receive the type of education that they could receive in & desegre gated school system. X feel that they ere also psychologically damaged by attending separate schools. This, among some ©there, is my reason for being a plaintiff In this suit. MR. SELL: No further questions. MR. WATKINS: No questions from us* CROSS EXAMINATION MR. LEONARD* Mrs. Evers, I ’d Just like to go to one portion of your testimony. You say you feel the children would be better educated If the schools were mixed. MR. BEIL; I think the statement she made was the statement of the other witness. It was not the use of the tens "mixed.” I don’t think the word "mixed'' appears In our complaint any place, and I think the complaint that our plaintiffs signed and the statements they have been asking on the steed refer to the wordk "desegregated schools.” THE COURT; Well, I will sustain the objection to this extent: I will let him ask her what she did say* What was it you said would be the benefit you hoped to achieve by this suit? The benefit? Yes. What benefit do you really hope to achieve by this suit? By this suit I hope to achieve the desegregation of schools 25 hare In the City of Jackson. Q. And vhat advantage will that be either to yourself or to your children? A. I sincerely feel 117 children will have a chance at a better education-• * ' ’• ~V*;_ 4». ;► '* - ‘ **' " "*** i'* '* **v,V\ —4-- V;' . • . V '1 gr *' ‘V ̂' *1* •/’ Q* Apart from your own personal feeling, do you know of any facts that make this so? A- Well, I was schooled In the state through elementary school, high school and collage at segregated schools, 1 have the personal knowledge of know! « that these schools did not cone up to par with the white schools- Since that time I don't feel that enough progress has been made to equalise the schools on this separate but equal doctrine to say that the children In the separate schools are receiving the same kind of education* I do believe that it Is inferior. Q* lot ms ask you this, Mrs. Evers, since you have personal experience with these schools: One, do you feel that they educated you? To a certain extent. I do feel I could have gotten more. How do you stand in your classes? Well, I would say I was an average student. I graduated second In my graduating class of high school. Q. Second in the class? A, Ik s , 1 did. Q. That Is a long way from average, A. Well, It depends on how you grade average In the separate A, Q. A. 26 schools. And 2 was always an average student, I would say, la college. Tell as something, Mrs. Evers. In the student body in those three schools that yon attended, wouldn’t you say that the school progressed just about as feet as the student body wanted It to progress? I could not say that because the student body was not in control of the school. This is trus, but did your teachers deliberately hold you back? What was it they were withholding from you? I think that they were withholding, perhaps without their knowledge, the knowledge that they could have given to us provided that they too had been taught and educated In desegregated schools. And what knowledge is that? As I said, I feel that the schools by being desegregated are inferior. Therefore the teachers that have graduated from these schools come out with inferior education. They la turn possibly cannot pass on to students all of the knowledge that they perhaps were able to achieve or to gain had they been attending desegregated schools» Then what you are saying is that if, in the course of this case, vs can and do prove that the members of pour race, people like yourself, who have attended these separate schools have indeed gotten a better education than the people vho have been in the intermixed schools In the llsrth, then you would agree that the separate school is the better? A. I would not agree that the separate school Is better. A* I would sa^ it Is. Q,. So if we could show a better education was In fact being given to the children in separate schools, you would agree' that separate schools are better? A. W011, I will haws to disagree with you because I do not feel that separate schools provide the sans education for both races. X do feel that the Negro schools are inferior. Cfc. Fight, but that is your personal feeling. A. that is wy personal feeling. Q. On the other hand, you would agree that if it can be proven in a court of law that the separate education is a better education, then separate schooling la better? MR. mUut We object. He is asking an argumentative type of question not aimed at eliciting information to help the Courti just arguing with the witness. And she has answered about twice. THE COURT: Overrule the objection. Q. isn't education the primary function of a school? Q. If you will answer? A. Will you state it again, please? (ihe question was read by the reporter) A. Well, I'll have to make the ease statement I made before. 3 do not feel separate education is the bitter. 28 Q,, Bit whatever la the better education, you are for it? A. I want a better education for my children and for all other children, and I also feel that they cannot receive a better education In separate schools* Q, Thank you very much. (Witness excused) MRS, EISA MARIE SIW3IET0K, called as a witness and having been duly sworn, testified as follows! DIRECT EXAMINATION BI MR. BEIL: Q,. State your full name, please? A. Mrs. Edna Marie Singleton. Q. Speak up louder* A. Mrs. Edna Singleton. Q, Are you a resident of the City of Jackson? A* I am* Q,. And the State of Mississippi? A. Yes, 1 am* Q. How long have you been a resident of the State of Mississippi? A« All my life. Q. What is your occupation, if any? A* I'm a beautician. 29 Q. And your race? Negro. Do you have any children? Yes, I have. What are their names? Derek Jerome Singleton and Vicki Lyn Singleton. Are any of them plaintiffs in this case? Yes, they are. What are their ages and grades? A, Derek is age 14. He is in the 9th grade. Q. Any other child? A. Vicki is in the first grade. Q» And her age? A* Seven. Q. Which schools are your children attending? A. Holy Ghost Catholic School. Q,. Under what circumstance would you be willing to send them to the public schools of the city?r! VT ■; if1 ‘jit ILf *. ’'***' i •*v‘ ' . * * ’ " • •. . -,v' -s A, If they ape desegregated, Q, You told me you live in the City of Jackson. Is that right? A. That’s right. Q, What street do you live on? A. I live on Maple Street. ’ . • Q. Can you describe the racial make-up of the neighborhood where you live? 30 would, I A* Well, on the rights ide of Maple Street, which assume, continue to/the east of Wood or Bailey Avenue, is the colored section. On the extending vest side is the white section. Q. Where do the whites and Negroes who live In this area pretty much across the street from each other, where do the whites and Negroes Mo to school? A. The Negroes go to Mary C. Jones School, going west on Maple Street. Extending east on Maple they would go to Brown, Rowan or Holy Ghost School. Q. Are there any white schools located in this area? A. Yes, there is one in about three blocks from where I livei across the street extending further out the school is about a block from where I live. Do the white children living In your area attend these schools located within two or three blocks? A. Yes, they do. Q,. And Negroes attend the schools that are for Negroes? A. Shat school for Negroes from where I live is eight or nine blocks away. Of course, the families who live farther down the street would have to go farther than the eight or nine blocks. Q. 'These are the Negro families? A, That1# right. And there*s no bus facilities running in that direction. Q In order for the Negroes living where you live to attend the 31 Negro public school, do they have to cross any dangerous streets or other hazards? Bailey Avenue is a main thorough street, main traffic street from where I ll^e^Jto^^et to Whitfield Mill Road. And Mill Street and the/track is the next crossing for Rowan, Beaver Brown, and Holy Ghost school. Have you ever made any effort to make known to the Board of Education in Jackson that you weren't satisfied with the public school? A. We did do that. Q. When did you do that and what did you do? A. That was in '55« What did you do in '55? I didn't at that time. I didn't personally. Well, did you ever personally participate in any protest and make known your personal protest to the Board of Education? A. No.'"7 ̂; «. > * . •*. ■ •' ; :r' •l'j* Q. Was there a petition in 1962? A. There was a petition, that's right, at that time. Q. Did you sign that? A. I did. Q. Do you know what the substance of that petition was? A. That's right, that was to desegregate the schools. Q. Did Jm receive yourself any response from the Board as to that petition? 52 A. Wo. Q. Did the Board advise you that if your children were in the school system, the public school system, they would be eligible for a transfer to a white school that they wished to attend? No. Are you a plaintiff in this suit? Yes, I am. What do you hope to obtain by being a plaintiff in this suit? A better education for my children and all Negro children. Do you think this education could be better obtained in a desegregated or segregated school system? I most certainly do. Q. Do what? Think they will have a better education under a desegregated system. Thank you. No further questions. CROSS EXAMINATION By MR. CANNADA: Q, I believe youd stated that you operate a beauty parlor. Is that correct? A , That is correct. Q. Do you mind telling us whether your employer is of the white or Negro race? A. I own the shop Q. You own the shop yourself. Do you have any customers of the white race? A. No. Q. And I gather that all of your customers are members of the Negro race? A. Yes. Q. You have also stated that you have three children. Is that right? A. Two. Q, And they attend a private school, or parochial school? A. lhat is right. Q. What is the name of that? A. Holy Ghost, Catholic school. Q.. Is that the same school that the children of Mrs. Evers, who previously testified attend? A. No, that is another school. Q. Are all of the students of that particular Catholic school Negroes? A. Yes. Q. There are no white students attending that schOol at this time? A. Not to my knowledge. (Witness excused) ' FHiIZAHKTH WHITE, called as a witness and having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BELL: 34 Q. Would you state your full name, please? A. Mrs. Elizabeth D. White. Are you & resident of the City of Jackson? Yes, I am. State of Mississippi? Yes, I am. How long have you lived In Mississippi? All my life. Do you have any children? Yes. Would you tell us who they are? And their ages and grades in school? Brenda La Faye White, age 14, ninth grade. You are a Negro? Is that right? Yes. Q.. What is your occupation? A. I am a baker at the Veterans Hospital. Q. Is that the federal hospital for veterans? A, Yes, It is. Q. Where is your child Brenda attending school? A. Brinkley Junior High School. <}. Brinkley Junior High? A. That is right. Q. Is that a white or a Negro school? A. Negro. Q. All students are Negro? A. That Is right. The teachers are Negroes, aa far as you know? That is right. Have you ever made any effort to protest to the school board concerning the make-up of the school where your child is assigned to attend? Non© other than the signing a petition in *62. You did sign a petition in 1962? Yes, I did. Did you receive any response from the board concerning that petition? A. No. Q. Did the board advise you that you could apply for admission of your child to a white school? A. No. Q. Of course, you are a plaintiff In this suit? Is that right? A. That*s right. Q. Would you tell the court what you hope to obtain by being a party in this suit? A. I feel like it would be a better education for my child and other children. I feel like it would be better. Q. Better what? A. Education, I say. Q. You feel l i k e ----. If the schools are desegregated — A. If tiie schools are desegregated I feel that. MR. BELL: No further questions. CROSS EXAMINATION BST MR. WATKINS: Q. As I understand It, your only Interest Is in seeing that your child gets the best possible education? Is that correct? A. My child? Q. Yes. A. No, not Just ray child, but all children, Negro children. Q. And the other Negro children? A, That la right. Q. And if you were satisfied, or if you found from the evidence in this case that your child and the other colored children in this community would receive a better education in separate schools, then that would be what you would continue to want, vouldn’t it be? A. Well, I vouldn1t say. I don’t know whether it would be better in separate schools. Q,. I didn’t ask you that question. I said if you were satisfied after hearing the evidence in this case, and if the Court found the children would get better education by going to separate schools, that is what you would want, isn’t It? MR. BELL: We object. It is arguing with the 57 Q. A. Q. witness. The question posed is the very issue before this Court. THE COURT: I will overrule this objection. What I am trying to find out is, all you want is the best education available for your child and the other colored children? Yes, I want that. Whatever will produce that, that is what you want the Court to do, isn't it? A. If it's what I want. Q. How, let me ask you this: Have you personally visited and seen the type of education that is received in schools that have been desegregated? A. Beg pardon? Q, Have you visited and examined or studied the educational processes and results in any schools that have been deseg regated? MR. BELL: We object again. A. Ho, I haven't. MR. HELL: They have gone through this kind of questioning and there is no place in any of the cases any requirement or prerequisite that a plaintiff in a school suit has to first, as a prerequisite to filing the suit, go to visit desegregated schools and have an opinion based on their visit. THE COURT* She is on cross examination, and I will q . Had not visited any such school. EX' MR. BEIL: Q. State your full name? A. Mrs. Kathryn Thomas Q» Are you a resident of the City of Jackson? A. Yes. Q. State of Mississippi? A. Yes. Q. How long have you been such? A. 56 years. Q. Speak up a little more. A, 36 years. q . And you are a Negro? Is that correct ? A. Yes. Q. What is your occupation? A. Beautician. MRS. KAIHKXN THOMAS, called as a witness and having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION Q Do you have any children 59 A « Yes* Q. What are their names? A* Carolyn Ann Thomas# age 16, and Earline, 18. Qo Are any of them presently attending the Jackson City schools? A. Yes. Q. Carolyn? A. Carolyn, the Brinkley High School. Q» What grade is she in? A. 11. Q. What school is she presently attending? A. Brinkley High, Q.. la this a Negro or vhite school? A. Negro school* Q. All the students are Negro, as far as you know? A. Yes. Q.. And the faculty, all Negroes, as far as you know? A. Yes» Q* Have you ever made any effort to protest to the school board that you weren’t satisfied with the make-up of the schools where your children attend? A. Yes. Q* What did you do? A. I signed a petition in ’62. Q. Did you receive any response from the school board to this petition? A ' /• ‘-yv. ■ ' ? r,r*y..7 ■' *■*%**£ •.*■ jy- *..I*' ;«**** •. |. * A. No. Q. Speak up a little tare. A. No. Q, Did the board ever advise you that you could make application to have your child transferred to a white school5 A. No. Q. If you were able to obtain such transfer, would you be satisfied? A. Yes. Q. You would be satisfied if your child were transferred to a white school? A. Yes. MR. WATKINSi We object to arguing with the witness. 53hft answered his question, clearly and positively. THE CO0RT: Overrule the objection. Q, Would you give me your answer? A. Yes. Q, What do you hope to accomplish by this suit? A. Well, a better education for colored kids. q . Do you feel this better education can be obtained in a segregated or desegregated school? A. Desegregation. MR. BEXiL: No further questions. J»0 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. CANHADA: Q, I believe you stated you were also a beautician? A* Yes. Q. Do you own your own shop? A, Yes. Q. Where is your shop located? A. On North Parish. Q. Do you have any white patrons at your beauty shop? A. No. Q. All your patrons or customers are members of the Negro race® A. Yes. Q, I believe you stated you have one child that does attend the public schools of the Jackson Municipal Separate School District? A. Yes. Q. I believe you also stated that the only request you ever made concerning this child and the school which she attends was the signing of the petition in 1962? Is that correct? A. Yes. q , Nov, if it is a matter of fact, if it can be shown during the trial of this case that your child is receiving a better education by attending the school she now attends, is that vhat you want for your child? 42 A. What? Q. A better education than would be true if she attended an integrated school* A. Yes. Q* You are saying you are interested in the education of your child? A. Yes. q . And if as a matter of fact it can be shown that by attending separate schools a better education is actually received by the child, then that is what you want? A. Yes. MR. CANNAmi That is all. SOT EXAMINATION BY MR. BELL: Q,. I don’t know whether you understood the question counsel asked you, and I am going to rephrase it, and listen to it before you answer. MR. WATKINS; This is an obvious attempt to impeach his own witness, and get her to change the testimony. I don’t thinfr counsel is entitled to do that. THE COORTs I think he is entitled on redirect exami nation to find out whether she understood the question. I will overrule the objection. MR. WATKINS: Be is suggesting to her, Your Honor, that she did give the wrong answer. 4? THE COURTi Don’t lead the witness. ft. As 1 understand it, counsel asked you whether if It could be shown by the trial that your child could obtain a better education in a segregated school, then you would be satisfied and you would not want a segregated school. A. Well, desegregated schools is what we are asking for. ft. Would you repeat the answer? A, Desegregated schools are what we are asking for. ft. Is it your belief your child can obtain — . MR. WATKINS: We object to leading. THE CCPRTj Don’t lead the witness. Q. You indicated you are a plaintiff in this suit? A . Ys s . ft. And you do understand what this suit is intended to do? Is that correct? A. Yes. Q. And what is that, in your own words? A. A better education for the colored kid in desegregated schools. ft. In desegregated schools? A. Yes. Q. And how was that? In a desegregated school? A. Yes. ft. In your honest opinion, or your belief, Mrs. Thomas, would you be satisfied under any circumstances, regardless of the type of education that oould be provided, if your child were A. What was that? Q. Would you be satisfied If under any circumstances child would be kept in a segregated school? to be kept in a segregated sc tool? A. No MR. BELL* That is all THE COURT! Any recross? MR. WATKINS3 No, sir. THE CCXJRT: Any examination by the interveners? MR. SHELL* No, sir'■> (Witness excused) MR. BEIL: I would like to call Mr, Kirby P. Walker. KIRBY P. WAIKER, called as a witness and having been duly swofki, testified as follows* BY MR. HELL: Q. State your full name. A. Kirby P. Walker. Q. You are a resident of the City of Jackson? A. Yes. Q. What is your occupation? A. Superintendent of schools. Q. How long have you held that position? A. Since 1937* Q. And you are a defendant in this suit? Is that correct? DIRECT EXAMINATION A. Correct MR* BELL: I would like at this time to have marked as an exhibit for identification the answers to the interrogatories which the * plaintiffs filed. (Same was marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 1 for Identification) Q. I ask you to take a look at the answers to the interrogatories, and these interrogatories purported to be signed by you and the members of the school board. Look it over and see if you can identify that. A. Yes, I identify this, and I signed it. That is marked as Exhibit P-1. MR. BEIL: I would like to move to have those admitted in evidence. Counsel suggests it is probably a good idea if we will also move to admit as a plaintiff's exhibit the interrogatories themselves, to make it clear. THE COURT: You are offering the interrogatories now? MR. BELL: Yes, sir. THE COURT: Let the interrogatories be received in evidence as Exhibit 1, and the answers as Exhibit 2. (Same were received and marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibits No. 1 and No. 2, respectively.) (Mr. Bell continues:) Q. If you will turn to page 2 of your answers, Mr, Walker, I see in the third paragraph there; "in the discharge of hia responsibility of making arrangements for the receiving of applications for pupil admis sion in the public schools of the Jackson Municipal Separate School District and making temporary assignments of such applicants to schools in such district, Kirby P. Walker annually designates the time and place -within the district for the submission of applications for admission.75 Could you tell a little about hov that is done, that is, who receives these applications for admission each year? Principals of the schools in the district actually receive them. And they receive a sufficient number of applications to pass out to each child? Is that correct? Yes. And these applications generally are similar to those which you attach as an exhibit to your affidavit which you filed back in March of last year? Is that correct? I don't recall what was attached at that time. If you have a copy of it, I can tell you whether or not it is the same. I think it is part of the record, but just to refresh your memory, the docianent is entitled APPLICATION FOR a *ta*:*iU ADMISSION AND ASSIGNMENT. That is correct. Is it also correct that the individual student fills out this 'A: application? Either he or his parent, depending upon hia age. In this application he gives the pertinent information as to h1» name, address, where he Is attending at the present time, where he lives in the city of Jackson. The Information is set forth on that form. As I recall, that is correct. ^hat happens to those applications after they are completed either by the child or his parent? The principal directs the teachers, who actually deal with the parent or the child in assigning the child to a school temporarily. I understood under your new rules that you actually made the temporary assignments. Does that mean that really someone else makes them but your responsibility? It is a delegated responsibility. Who actually makes the assignment? the teacher? Well, at our direction, yes. And then what happens after the assignments are made by the teacher? Hie child or his parent understands he Is entitled to attend school where he is assigned temporarily. When are these temporary assignments, and by what procedure are these temporary assignments, made permanent? following a period in which there is an opportunity to request a change of assignment, and those have been acted f 4? at staff level, we so report to the board of trustees that pupils have been temporarily assigned, that we have ted on requests for changes of assignments, and they acted are then ready to be assigned penaanently. What occurs generally then? Sorry? -%»■ i \ t* •*. t'-. n~.. V R . T Does the board then generally ratify? Hie board then acts iwoediately, passes an order, and makes assignments permanent. In this procedure you never actually review each of the applications fen? assignment forms that are filled out by the students throughout the school system? No, sir. And the person who actually makes the temporary assignment, who is delegated the duty of making the assignment, the teacher in tills school or clasB, are there any written instructions given to her as to what criteria she should use in making that temporary assignment? None. What guide lines do these teachers have? Hie principals are instructed to assign the pupils to that school, who have applied there and make requests for admission. After the applications are completed, those students who would be going to grades still encompassed by that school are then assigned by the principal to that school? Is that *9 correct? A. Correct. Q* You indicate there is a period of time after these applications are filed when they are held awaiting applications for trans fer* Now, where does the pupil or the parent obtain the information that he ie entitled to make this application for transfer? They can be obtained at two points — the board offices on 1060 lynch Street, or the board offices at 652 South President* Q* That is where he could receive the form for application for transfer? A. That is right. Q* Where does he get the Information that he can go to either of these two places to obtain the form and make the appli cations . A. That is in the hands of all principals and also announced publicly through the press. Q. That they are able to make these applications for transfer? A. Correct. Q. Has there ever been a specific announcement to the principals or to the press that applications for transfer would be received even if the applications sought transfer from a Negro school to a white school or vice versa? A. Not that specific designation. Q. As I understand It, prior to 1954, maybe a little later, the resolution was adopted set forth in your affidavit, which set up the procedures which you are presently followingj but prior to that time, prior to the Supreme Court’s decision in 1954 concerning segregation in the schools, how were the pupils assigned to the public schools? A. The assignment was made then on the basis of a board order and which zones for attendance were designated, approved for each school in the system. Q,. At that time, of course, you had the dual zones, a set of zones for Negro schools and a set of zones for white schools? Is that right? A. That is right. Q. And when, as one of our witnesses testified earlier here, In a particular neighborhood where there were Negroes and whites living on opposite sides of the street, those Negro and white school zones would overlap? A. That & right. Q.. With Negro children going to Negro schools and white children going to white schools? Is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. You indicated the zone lines were abandoned when the new policy took effect? A. That is rigjit. Q. r-3y question is, isn’t it correct that under this new policy 50 51 insofar as assignment to Negro or white schools is concerned, that there is no realdifferenee; that Negroes still are gdbg to Negro schools and whites are still going to white schools? A. Negro pupils are still going to schools with other Negro pupils, and white pupils are going to school with white pupils. And these schools to which they go are still designated in your publications and elsewhere as either Negro or white schools? Isn’t that correct? White or colored. I think that is the term. Do you recall at what grade level in having these applications completed you stopped sending them home to the parents and permitted the child to complete the application himself? Usually when a child is able to write, he makes his own application, unless he is a new resident in the district, at which time we ask his parents to accompany him in making his first application. Then would that be about the fifth grade or the fourth grade when the child would be able to write sufficiently well to fill out the application himself? Probably earlier. I would say probably third or fourth grade level. Q. Generally, In answer to Interrogatory ^ that begins on page if of your answers!- in that request I might say that we had # 52 requested information as to how are assignments affected by a number of different factors, which you indicated you take into consideration in making these assignments. Now, you indicate in answer to subsection 4-a, which begins down at the bottom and continues over on to 5, that, "the discipline problem in the schools as well a* to and from the schools" is a factor you consider. I should like for you to explain that sentence over on page 5 where you indicate that "tension and antagonism would develop,"resulting in discipline being adversely affected if white and Negro pupils were assigned at the earns school. Do you want my comment on that? Yes. Well, it has been customary for Negro children to be associated with Negro children, and white children to be associated with shite children in this community* and in this situation any change of that custom, in my opinion, would create tensions, feelings, and antagonisms. You have been in the school system for how many years? A. 27 years. ft. Am I correct in presuming your answers given on the basis of your experience over this period? A. In this consminity, yes. ft* Is it also the thrust of Your answtr to subsection 4-b on -/✓ on page 5 concerning "the relative abilities of pupils’* that the achievement ability or potential of the white pupil and the Negro pupil is so different that it Justifies keeping them in separate schools? A, That is my opinion. Q. What is that based on? That they should be separate. The achievement and ability of the two races is so distinct that they should be schooled separately. Is it your experience that in the Negro school — . Strike that. In your opinion are schools a factor themselves in the differing ability levels of these two groups of students? A. No. Q. You think the schools are exactly the same in that that the differing achievement are something that is inherent in the races? Is that correct, that the whites are superior and the Negtoes are inferior? A. That was not my answer. Q. That is why I would like you to explain. A. I think the first question was whether or not the schools affected the ability or was a factor inthe ability of the child. Q. That is right. A. I don*t think so. Your second question was, was one superior or inferior to the other. Q.. Was the one group of children inferior to the other? With respect to achievement? With respect to achievement. That is correct. The white children have a better achieve ment record than do the Negro children. And this better achievemen t level is attributable, you think, to what? I am not called upon to account for that. I deal with the child as he presents himself in school. I understand in some of the later phases of your Interrogatories there are tables set forth indicating that as the Negro child proceeds in the school system his achievement potential falls off more and more. Now, as the number one administra tive official, aren't you concerned about that? I am concerned that his mental ability would seem to drop and his achievement would also tend to parallel. This is not the fault of the school? I don't think so. It is the fault of the child or group of children? I don't know it Is the fault of the child as such. I can't account for it. You can't account for it, but you feel the best way to cope with it is to keep the two groups separate? I think it is best for both groups educationally. I take it that a sizeable percentage of your faculty people, Negro and white, are residents of Mississippi and were educated in Mississippi schools? Is that correct? 55 I am sorry} I do not know the origin. I would assume that a large part of them, but I am not sure. Hhe findings you have made as to the Negro pupils and their achievement level, and the fact they are less good than that of the whites, in many instances, does that also hold true for your faculty, you find? I didn't use the tern "good." I said in terms of achievement. Nov, vhat would be the question with respect to that? I don't know that there is any difference, but my question isi Whether you find the same differential in achievement in the faculty people, Negro and white, as you do in the pupils? I dorft interview the teachers. Hiat Is done by principals. They are the people who Interview them and recommend them, and their Judgment as to the individual who would best serve the children in that school. They work within board policy to minimum qualifications,and no teacher employed is under that qualification. Does that answer mean that you yourself do not know whether or not the same problem in learning and achieving, as far as education is concerned, that you are cognizant of in regard to Negro and white children — does your answer Indicate you are not aware whether there is a similar problem with Negro and white faculty members? No, I am not aware of that. Then it could very well exist and you just wouldn't know about It? Is that correct? Show about what? 56 Q. About the differential in achievement and ability to learn existing in the faculty, as veil as in the pupils? Well, they are matured individuals coming within their credentials, which have been certified by others, and we accept them at "he face facts • In the same way, isn't it correct that the pupils, when theycome Into the first grade, have certain credentials as far as residence, age, birth certificates,aad things of this nature, which you also certify is sufficient to permit those children to begin school? And, nevertheless, you understand and have had all this Information compiled concerning the difference In the achievement level of the pupils, which you say is not the cause of the schools. Now, my question to you is whether the faculties, Negro and white, show the same differential in ability. A. I'd say the faculty is representative of the population, as the pupil population. Q. Does that mean you are or not aware of it? Does that mean there isn't a differ ence in the faculty, or do you feel there is? A. I don't know. MR. CANNAQA.: We object to continuing harassment of this — MR. BELL: I'm not going any further. He obviously doesn't know THE COURT: I believe at this point we will take a ten minute recess. > (Whereupon the court was recessed for ten minutes) After Recess MR. BELL continuing: Q. We were speaking, Mr. Walker, about what you found to be the differing levels of achievement in Negro schools and in the white schools, among Negro pupils and white pupils. Based upon examination of these tables, it would appear that while the average white child of a certain grade level achieves more than the average Negro > that there are excep tions at either end of the scale, that there are Negro students whose aohievenent is above the average for the whites and whites whose level of achievement is below the average of the Negroes? Is that correct? A. Which table are you referring to? q . Almost any of them, really. Take the first one, Interrogatory 5, Table 1. A. Oils is a readiness test. Q. What does that mean? A. This test is given to first grade pupils shortly after entering school to see how ready they are to read, or to be introduced to reading. q . Was this test given throughout the system, or was it confined to a few schools? A. I think this includes all of the first grade pupils as of September-October, 1963, And vas given to all title students in the schools? I believe so. I think that is correct. We have out at the far left, A, B, C, D, E, and 1, 2, 3* 4, 5« What does that indicate? That is a scale to indicate the degree of readiness, 1 being the lowest and 5 being the highest. The figure 3 represents what the national average is with respect to first grade pupils* ability for readiness to read. This is before they have had any training in reading or anything else? This is as they just come into the school system? Probably they have been in school a month or six weeks. Nov, on this, as to reading and as to numbers and as to total, which I assume is for compilation of the two, reading and number readiness — . No, this has to do only with reading. What does "number" indicate? Are you referring to another table? No, it is the same table but as to the second scale on the table. A. You are referring to the figures on the left, the perpendicular? Q. Uhdemeath the test, underneath the first one, there is a designation "Reading." A. Yes. 59 BY MR. SHELL: Your Honor, do you have one of these that you might follow the testimony? THE COOMh No, I do not, (Same is handed to the Court) A. I am with you now. Yes, one has to do with readiness to read and the other is understanding or concept of numbers. Q. And the total? A. The total is a combined scale score for his reading and number concepts. Q. We see in the first column under "Reading" it has a large column going up, and at the top the number 3*5* What does that mean? A. That is the average scale score for the white pupils who took this test in the Fall of *63. And that indicates that the average grade for white students taking this test was 3.5, and some white students did much better than 3.5, and some did much poorer? Is that correct? A. Yes, would be some above and some below. Q. Now, the Negro level is 2.3, and that would mean the same thing for the Negro students? Is that correct? A. Yes * Q. Then it would follow, would it not, that there were some Negroes who did much better than 3.5 and some whites that did poorer than 2.3? A, X don't know that it follows. Q. Well, these figures here are averages, aren't they, what everybody did? A. Correct, but I don't know that they overlap to that extent you Indicated. Q. Then if it weren't, wouldn't the 3.5 level for the whites be much higher than 3.5? A. Well, that is what it is. Q. You are not willing to admit at all that there were any white students who fell below 2.3? A. X do not know. Q. And you don't know whether there were any Negro students who did better than 3-5 or made the 3.5? A. I do not know, Q. You don't know. Did you make any examination of these test scores to determine that? A, These are examined by a staff member, who is more expert in this than I. Q. You didn't prepare these graphs that are attached to the interrogatories ? A. No, but it was done under my direction. Q. After it was done under your direction, exactly what type of review of this information did you make? A. Just what you see here. Q. You just looked over the finished tables? A. That's correct. 01 Q. You didn’t go back and review any of the materials from which these tables were prepared? V A. I did not. Q. You don’t know then If there were any Negroes that scored 3.5? A. No, sir, I do not. Q. The only action you have taken to try to correct the 2.3 or the lower Negro scores which are below the national average, according to this table, Is to determine that it is better for Negroes to stay in Negro schools? Is that correct? A. Not on this one factor, no. Q. But since the testss onfill of these tables are similar, this helps you reach your conclusion? A. That Is right. Q. — your conclusion the Negroes are better off in Negro schools? A. That ia right. Q. Without regard to these tests, have you in your own experience cane across or been Informed as superintendent that there were Negroes in the Negro schools who showed a great deal of ability, with respect to ability to achieve in scholastic endeavor? A. I don’t know that It has been brought to my attention that \ ; there was a great number. I don’t recall. Q. In your 27 years, have you ever heard of one? 62 A, Yes, I have. Q. Did you ever have any concern yourself or evidence any concern to the board about the problem of the Negro child with extra ability being maintained in the Negro school which, according to your tables, shows the children aren't able to achieve as much? Not as an individual, because again we are looking at a number of factors in the operation of a school and not Just one person's ability. Would one of the other factors that would tend to make you feel that your conclusion to leave even the extra bright Negro child in a Negro school be the factors you mentioned about the "tensions and antagonisms:| that would develpp if the child were assigned? A. That would not have been the point. Q. Would not? A. Not with respect to that child. Q. What would have been some at the factors? A. Assuming a typical — not a typical — assuming an exceptional child at a given time, it is quite possible he would have found himself in a competition that would have really- frustrating effects and defeating his interest, instead of being the outstanding performer and would have been veiy likely a mediocre performer. Q. This is if he had been transferred to a white school? A. That is right. Where the achievement level is higher? That is right. This is your opinion? Shat is ray opinion. As far as we know, there have been no experiements of this type in the city of Jackson? No experiments in the public schools. Now, we have here on page 7 in answer to subsection *{~f of the interrogatories where our question asks you to indicate how assignments are affected by safety of the pupils. You indicated the safety of the pupils was a factor in making your assigneraents. You say separation of the Negro and white peoples in the schools is in the best interest of the physical well being of the people. Could you explain that answer a little? Yes. I think going to and from school children go together as groups, and when they travel together, they more or less reinforce themselves j they are at eaoij their associates are those they have been together with regularly. I think tomo&lfy that would bring a conflict that could affect the well being of the pupils. In this regard, how does that standard apply to a situation — and 1 ‘m sure there must be a number of them — but one 63 ve had testimony from,Mrs. Singleton,early this morning, that Negro children in her neighborhood, all of whom were assigned to Negro schools further away from their homes xhaxi white schools, had to cross a dangerous street and railroad tracks in order to get to this school. How does the point about the safety of the pupils, how is that resolved when you have a situation such as you testify to? I don't think you can eliminate all hazards in going about any comnunity. In your opinion, are there greater hazards, would they be faced with greater hazards if assigned to the nearer white schools, even than they are faced with when they are to cross the railroad tracks? I think there would be conflict between the groups. And there would be, in your opinion, greater hazards that way than if continued to be assigned as they are presently assigned? I think so, yes. In the next subsection, Jj~g, where we ask you to indicate all other matters and facts of similar nature that should be considered, you mention in the answer there were other matters and factors that should be considered, you say in your answer these would include mental and physical conditions that you might take i rto consideration in individual assign ments, but would be impractical to list them all. Could you tell the Court now just roughly the type of physical and mental factors that you feel would be taken into con sideration. I don't remember the question. Could I see the original 65 question? Q. Yes, I was trying to read It to you. (Hands sane to witness) A. As I recall, this has been some time since this was carefully considered. This statement would refer to a child who might be mentally retarded where he would not be considered typically educable, and also would refer to a child who mi^it have a physical handicap. What action might be taken when you found yourself with the problem of assigning such a child? We would try to see if another assignment would be better for him. I take it though that all of these various factors you have considered snd which you have set forth In the interrogatories as being the basis for assigning children, have not resulted In the board's assigning any children to a school of the opposite race? A. Do I understand — . Q. Even considering all of these factors and giving whatever consideration you give in making the assignments, at no time have Negro children been assigned to white schools, using these factors, or vice versa? A. That is right. Q. Am I correct In my conclusion in reading through the various factors you have in answer to Interrogatory 4 that race is always a factor in making your determination based on discipline problems, ability of pupils, compatibility of the teachers, availability of teachers, welfare of the community, safety of the pupils, and all the other factors, is interwoven with each of these determinates? Baaed on my knowledge of the characteristics of the race, that is correct. I take it, based on your answer to Interrogatory 7 on Page 9 that the factor in the date mining of the board to continue its present operation of the school system, that the factor you considered is your be lief that such operation is in accord with the great majority of the people living within the district? Is that a correct interpretation to your answer? Yes, sir. Now, if you will go down to your answer to Interrogatory 1?, which begins on Page 10 and goes on to Page 11, in that interrogatory we had asked you to indicate any courses or programs or facilities available at schools attended by whites only which are not available at schools attended by Negroes only. You indicated generally the facilities and courses are similar at both Negro and white schools, but you indicated that there are some building trades, boys* homemaking and auto mechanics offered in schools attended by Negro pupils not offered by schools attended by white pupils. Could you explain to the Court what is involved in a boys* homemaking course, a buildings trade course? 67 A. You mean the nature of the program? Q. Yes. A. In the boys1 horaemaking course there Is an opportunity for thou to learn scan© skills in food preparation, household • management, -which ultimately proves to be a useable skill for a number of Negro youth. Q. How does that work out? I Interpret it as teaching the boys how to be housewives. Is that correct? A. No. I thought I made it clear. It involves both food preparation and household management. Q. What is household management? Food preparation means cooking, A. Rigit. Q,. What is household management? Wiping the dishes and sweeping the floors? A. Yes, and budgetirg. 0.. And you find this is a course helpful to Negroes but not helpful to whites? A. They are interested in it. They asked for it, and therefore we pffered it. Q. Who was interested in it? A. Hie boys who attend the Negro high schools. Q. And because they asked for it, you gave them this course in cooking and budget making and housecleaning? Is that correct? A. Yes. 68 What Is this building trades course about? 'Those trades are in carpentry, brickwork, probably plastering, painting. These are skills that boys are interested in because it offers an opportunity for them to use these skills for compensation. Would these be courses of such nature that boys completing them successfully would be prepared to obtain employment in these various fields? I would say would be apprentices, very likely. They wouldn’t be finished craftsman. Is it my understanding there are no courses in bricklaying and carpentry in the white schools? \ I think that is ri$it. They are not available. White students in Jackson, Mississippi, can’t learn to be carpenters? They are not interested in it. None of these trades? Not sufficient numbers to justify offering them. Is the same true of auto mechanics? That ds right. There is no auto mechanics course available for white students? No, sir. I take it that the white boys, for example, are interested in ROTO? *15101 has been true. And you have never had a request from a Negro for ROTC \ training? No, air. , And this ROTC training is the type of training that can lead to commissions in the service and enable them to get into ROTC courses in college that would lead to commissions in the service? Is that correct? I* I don*t think it would be a prerequisite. How about Distributive Education? What is involved in that? A. That is a program that is open to senior high school pupils, grades 11 and 12, I believe, and it is a cooperative arrange ment where there is an employment agency willing to make a training situation for a child, and he is in school partially and works part of the time. Q. In other words, business and professional people in the corranunity contribute to the educational process by offering employment on a part-time basis to persons who can later obtain employment perhaps in that particular field? A. That is right. Q,» And a Negro chosen in the city of Jackson has no program available to him? A. They have no interest in it. Q. Your answer to that and also the answer on ROTC, "no interest in that," is that based on reports coming to you directly or based on the fact that you have never heard of interest in these fields? A. Principals in schools and counselors would know of pupil 69 70 interest in programs, and the parents are close to those people and able to express themselves. It vould be my feeling if there had been any concern, any serious expressed concern, that a principal of a school in reporting at the end of a year would have indicated that this service should be offered because there was a sufficient number of youngsters to merit the offer. It would be the policy of the board and our position that the service would be offered if there were sufficient number of pupils to merit it. Now, the fact that the service might be of value to the student wouldn't be the major factor, but whether or not you considered you had sufficient number of students that would merit providing it? That is true. The same would be true of secretarial training? That is correct. Do Negro schools offer the girls any type of secretarial skill at all? A. Typing and stenography, shorthand. Q. But none of the other business skills, as fair as business machines, bookkeeping? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. To your knowledge, Negro parents are not interested in their children obtaining education In this area? A. It hasn't been indicated to me. 71 I see. Let me get this straight, Mr. Walker. As your understanding of your duty as the number one school administrator in Jackson, is it your position that formed the curriculum in these schools, based on the wishes of the students and perhaps their parents, or do you at any time base the curriculum on what you tin your educational experience feel would be of value to those students? I would say some of both, plus the fact that part of the program is prescribed by law. Are there some other courses which are not mentioned here which you think of that are offered to one race and not offered to the other? I think this represents it. I don't recall any others. How about languages? Languages are available in all of the high schools. In the same degree? That is, if the white students are able to get two years of a particular language, are the Negroes able to get the same thing? I think so. I don't know of any difference. Does that mean there might be a difference you don’t know about? A. It might be in one school, yes. They might offer this year two years of a language and next year offer three years of the same language. Q. Would the same be true of science? A. Could be. I hardly think it's likely in either case. 72 But the textbooks and everything that are used in both schools, to your knowledge, are the same? Provided by the State and loaned to pupils on the same basis. The facilities in the laboratories and classrooms are all the same? For all practical purposes they are the same. Generally the facilities, as far as the physical facilities, in the schools are the same, according to your information? That*s right. The teachers are paid according to the same salary scales? I do not have ray salary scales. How are the teachers paid? A. They are paid on the basis of ray recommendation to the board. Q. Based on your recommendation to the board? That*s correct. Is there a minimum salary? Yes, there is a minimum. And is there any kind of standard you use in recommending advances according to experience? Yes. Five factors. I see. What are they? We have to take into consideration academic and professioaal preparation of a person, his teaching capacity, his administrative ability, and his character. How do you Judge these? Beg pardon? 75 Q. Haw are you able to Judge these as to each teacher? A. I have to look at their files when they are reconanended and determine what would be a salary that would be reasonable and ask them if this is money in which they would be interested. If so, we would employ them. q . a little earlier in your testimony, you indicated you didn*t hire the teachers and didn’t know anything about their ability when I was asking about whether or not the Negro teachers showed the same inferior ability as far as scholastic achievement is concerned that you had documented so completely here as to Negro pupils. Now you say you do recommend the salary scale for these teachers based on factors having to do with their general abilities to teach. Can you explain the discrepancy? A. Yes. I do not interview them. I reconsnend them after they have been recommended to us by the principal of the school. We have a record as to their background and previous compen sation, and we deal with them on an individual basis as to whether or not they would be interested in being employed. q . Then in order to deal with them on this individual basis, you must have a pretty good idea of the relative abilities, based on educational experience and these other qualifications of leadership that you mentioned, to give us an answer to the question we asked before; namely, whether or not, in short, 74 the Negro teachers are inferior to the white teachers. Salary doesn’t indicate they are necessarily inferior. MR. CANNADA.: We object to repeating the question. He has asked the question several tiroes. MR. BELL: nd I haven*t gotten an answer. THE COURT: I will overrule the objection. It is cross examination. Again let’s go back and say that we have this complete documentation showing that the Negro pupils do not achieve as well as the white pupils; we have your general belief that most of the teachers are residents of Mississippi and came up through the Mississippi schools. My question to you before andmy question to you now is whether or not the Negro teachers exhibit the same shortcomings as far as scholastic achievement and ability to grasp Information that the pupils exhibit. I don’t know that. Have you made any similar type of study on the teachers as you made on the students? Sorry? Have you made any — Do the teachers have to take tests of any sort, as standard tests, before they are hired? A. No. Q. Do they take one of the national standardized teachers’ testa before they are hired? A. No. After they are hired? No. There la no such requirement in the city school system. Well* on the basis of their educational background, which you indicate you take into consideration in setting the salaries, what do you find in comparing the Negro teachers experience and preparations with the white preparation? I don*t make that comparison. Yes, I think I can help you. We are in a position to negotiate with persons on the basis of their availability. We have a substantial number of applications, far more than we can use. We have a minimum salary that we would pay which is fixed by state lav. Beyond that we are in a position to negotiate. We use the free enterprise system in employing teachers, and where we have a good supply we can take advantage of the market and buy at discount, so to speak. Where the market is slim or supply is not so abundant, we would have to pay a better salary. I see. I think that is helpful, md we all know, of course, that there is a great supply — you have a much larger supply to draw from with regard to the Negro teachers than you do for the white teachers. Isn*t that correct? I wouldn*t say "much greater.'* There is some difference probably. There is a noticeable difference in availability? I am not impressed that that is true. Q. Sorry? A. I am not Impressed that that ts true. It might be, but I'm not sure. Q. Veil, what are the factors that would not impress you? A. That necessarily there are more Negro applicants than whites. Q. You receive a certain number of applications for teaching Jobs each year from both Negroes and whites? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you advise what the approximate indication of the number of both you receive is? A. I would say a thousand total, and of that number four hundred Negroes and six hundred from whites. Q. Going on the basis of the jobs to be filled at any particular time, would you have more applications for the Negro vacancies than you do for the whites? A. I'm Just not that close to It to answer that. Q. You Indicated a little earlier that as a matter of fact you did have some greater number of Negro applicants fro available jobs than whites. A. Did I say that? Q. That was ray impression earlier. Now you Indicate that that is not correct. A. I don't remember the earlier impression. Q. Your impression now is that there is not a greater number? A. Not materially, in total supply. Q. Nov, do you have any idea as to whether on an average the white teachers start at a higher minimum salary than the Negroes? A. No, I think they start off the same. q . You think they do start off the same? A. That’s correct. Q. And then along with all the other things you feel generally are equal in the school system, you would add the factor of teachers' salaries? A. That's right. Q. In view of all these answers, Mr. Walker, would you explain your answer to Interrogatory 14 where you indicate that the records — This is on page 11 — based upon the record of this district for '62-'63 school year, the average cost of the white student above the state minimum was $135-63, and the average cost per Negro pupil above the minimum was $102.44. How does that differential become available if as you indicate the facilities, the programs, the teaching materials, teaching salaries, are all the same? A. Well, first of all, this accounting is not so precise that this would be a true audited difference. There are Just general allocations made with respect to certain costs, and not necessarily based on an hour or a rateable amount. It is true that the centers attended by Negro pupils generally are larger. This would affect somewhat the per capital cost of administration and of other services, and such factors as insurance, maintenance of a plant, would apply. These 78 differences occur within the buildings and from grade to grade and class to class. At this particular time there was a thirty-three dollar difference. This year it might be less or more. Q. In years earlier than 15 62 and going back to *5^ and earlier, there was a much greater difference? Isn’t that correct? Yes, there was. That is correct. Do you have anything else to add in explanation of why in the *62-63 year — I ’m not very good at math, but it looks like a fairly sizeable percentage, about a fifth more expended for the average cost for educating the white pupil than vac expended in educating the Negro pupil? This doesn’t represent all the costs. This is only the sup plemental figure. I don't consider that a significant figure, difference, Now, as I understand, the other costs is the money you get from the state for these people? A. That's right. Q, And that is at the present time on an equal basis, the same amount for Negroes and whites? A. Well, it is on the basis of a formula involving a number of factors. It is for the support of an educational total program. Q. Am I unfairly concluding that all of the discrepancy is the allocation made by the local school board and that none of it comes from the state minimum program? A. That’s rigit. Q. On the interrogatories, Interrogatory Number 10, we posed the question* "State what, if anything, has been done by the defendants and by each of them in the way of compliance with the order of the United States District Court of March 4, $ 1964, including efforts to prepare students, teachers, parents and the community for the possible effectuation of such order in September, 1964." Ifels question was objected to by the defendants in the interrogatories, and which we withdrew. Now that we are at trial, I would like to ask you that question at this time. MR. WATKINS: If it please the Court, we'd like to object to that question now for the 3arae reason we objected to the interrogatory. THE COURT: Sustain the objection. MR. BELL: Your Honor, let me, if I may, state the reason for asking that question and the one similar to it at this time. As the Court recalls, the order of March 4 required that the board cease operating a segregated school system and required them to bring in a plan by July 15 looking forward to the desegregating of one whole grade by the beginning of the '64- *65 school year. Now, it is our contention that that question and the answer to that question is relevant if the order of March 4 was to have any meaning and effect. And while we 80 understand that the order is always subject to amendment or revocation by whatever the Court concluded as a result of this trial, we nevertheless felt the Court had something in mind when it entered the order of March and what it had in mind — at least, what we had argued to the Court — was that in a situation such as is here in Jackson where* segregation had gone on for a long period of time, that in order to effectuate a meaningful change and peaceful change, that preparation should be made beginning inmediately. And therefore, we felt that that was the effect and thrust of the order* to put the board on notioe so that they could begin making whatever plans and preparations they thought necessary. That is why we feel the question is relevant at this point* to see what preparations have been made, because it goes both to the good faith compliance of the order and a determination as to whether the final order entered by the Court at this time should be broadened or altered or changed. THE COURT: I will adhere to ray ruling. My thinking at that time was that it was more in the nature of a declaratory Judgment, and I allowed until July 15 in which to submit the plan, and the proposed plan would become effective at the fall sessionj so I think the question is incompetent at this time and I will adhere to my ruling. 81 Q. In your answer to Interrogatory 9, we had saked you to attach any statement or resolutions by the defendants pertaining to desegregation of the public schools since the 1954 Supreme Court decision, and you indicated and replied s "There have been no official announcements or resolutions made or adopted by defendants pertaining to desegregation of the public schools since the 195^ Supreme Court decision." Now, I want to ask you again whether or not — and ask you to t-.Mnif about It, if you will — the board has prepared and issued any statements or resolutions, statements to the public or to the school teachers, to any group about desegre gation of the public schools here in Jackson. There has been none. Have any bulleti ns come from any of the offices of the board, to your knowledge, since the filing of this suit concerning your position and the board*s position concerning the desegregation decision of *5^ and its possible effect on the school system here? A. I don’t recall any. Q. When do you recall something that you signed designating it as a "statement," and it was also signed by members of the board, that indicated that "Darrell Evers et al have filed Civil Action 3579 in the United States District Court for the Southern District of Mississippi at Jackson. The Jackson Separate School District, members of the Board of 82 Trustees of the district, and the superintendent of the district have been named as defendants. This case involves the operation of the public schools of the district. In the sincere belief that it is in the best interest of all the people of the district and particularly the school children of the district, the trustees of the district, with the full support of the mayor and commissioners of the City of Jackson, and the superintendent of the schools of the district take this opportunity of assuring all citizens that they will resist and oppose this litigation by every legal and constitutional means available, The statement goes on, "Thomas H. Watkins has been employed as special counsel, along with Bobert c. Cannada, regular attorney of the trustees, to represent the defendants in this case, and the attorney-general of the State of Mississippi has been requested to assist these attorneys. The filing of this case will not affect the operation of the schools of this district. All citizens are urged to maintain a calm and lawful atmosphere, leaving the handling of this problem to the duly constituted authorities. Additional statements will be issued from time to time in order that all may be informed as to developments." The statement was purported to be signed by Lester Alvis, Chairman; C. H. King, Trustee; Lamar Noble, Trustee; W, G. Mize, Trustee; J. V, Underwood, Trustee; K. P. Walker, Superintendent; Alan C. Thompson, Mayor; B. L. Luckett, Commissioner; and Torn Marshall, Commissioner. Do you recall that statement? Yes, I do. Quite well. When did the board issue that statement? I don’t recall the date, but I would say it was shortly after the — Was it the early part of this year? I don’t recall. Do you have a date? Early in 1564? It was in 1964? I ’m asking you. I don’t recall whether it was this year or last year. Who prepared this statement? It was jointly prepared. By all the signatories? Is that right? No, not all of them. Counsel for the board and I, I ’m sure, had more to do with it than anyone else. To whom was this statement sent? It was released to the press, and copies of it were made said distributed to the faculty of our schools, parents of our schools, Parent-Teachers Associations, To all the parents? No, I would say to the associations. The PTA units may have announced it or carried it further. You meant the statement for general publication though? That’s right. It was released to the press first. 84 Q. Was the statement posted in your schools? A. I don't know if it was posted, but there would have been no objection to its being posted. q . Now, isn't this a statement having to do with the desegregation of the public schools, that you indicate you did not make, in answer to Interrogatory Number 9? That is not & statement to desegregate. That is a statement relative to litigation that had been filed. I think your answer here indicates that you didn't issue any s tat eras nts pertaining to desegregation of the public schools. I didn't construe that to refer to that document. Have you or the board issued any subsequent statements, as you indicate in this one that you would? I think there was another later, yes*, and signed also by the board members and by mej probably after the Court’s decision here last March, I guess it was. Q, What was the substance of that statement, if you remember? A. As I recall, it would have been somewhat a summary of the Court's direction to be prepared for a day in court in May and to be prepared by July 15th, as I recall, to submit a plan for desegregation of schools effective September, 1964. This was, I believe, referred to as a temporary or preliminary order. Q. And what distribution was made of that statement? A, The same as made of the previous: the press, principals of schools, faculties, parent-teacher associations. 85 Q. Was there In that statement a reaffirmation of the board's determination to resist and oppose this litigation by every legal and constitutional means available? A. I don’t recall that it was, but I vould think the first statement vould have been sufficient. Q. As a result of this second statement — - This second statement was issued after the Court had entered its order of March 4th, you said? A. I think that is right. Q. Now, have the board or you taken any other action as a result of the Court’s order of March 4th, of a similar nature? MR. WATKINS: We object to that. That is a question— THE COURT: — Yes, sustain the objection, for the same reason. Just to summarize, is it correct to state that your testimony has indicated that during your experience with the school system there have been no assignments,either originally or as a result of transfer, of Negroes to white schools and whites to Negro schools? A. That is correct. Q,. And that similarly as to faculties, there have been no assignments of Negro faculty persons to white schools and no assignments of white persons to Negro schools? A. That is correct. Q. And that the budgets and other administrative features of of your school program have also been handled and operated on the basis of race, with budgets and curriculum designed for Ifegro schools, and all of these similar administrative aspects designed for vhite schools? A. Rigit* MR. HELL: I think we have no further questions. MR. CAKNADk: We have no questions at this time, reserving the right, if the Court please, to put him on in our direct case. OHE COURT: Very well. You may step aside, Mr. Walker. MR. BELL: -— I'm very sorry, Your Honor. Wiere was one administrative detail, if I could have him return to the stand? I'm sorry, Your Honor. THE COURT: Very well. (Witness resumes place on witness stand) (Mr. Bell continues:) Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Walker. I had asked you to bring with you this morning in your subpoena a copy of the original petition that was filed with the school board. A. I have it. Q.. I think that was made an exhibit to your original affidavit last year. MR. BELL: We'd like to have marked for identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit 3 for Identification the letter and petition addressed to the Chairman of the Board of Trustees, dated August 15, 1962, and signed on behalf of the petitioners by Medgar V. Evers. THE COURT: Very veil. Let It be marked for identification. (Sane were marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 3 for Identification) MR. BELL: Ve would move to have this admitted as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 3. THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence. (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 3 for Identification received in evidence) MR. BELL: Thin seems to be the original. At a later date the defendants may want to substitute a copy, and we would have no objection to that. THE COURT: Yes, sir. let a copy be substituted. MR. HELL: We have no further questions. MR. CANNADA: May w© ask one or two questions, still with permission to put Mr. Walker back on during our direct? THE COURT: Yes. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. CANNADA: Q,. At the conclusion of your testimony a moment ago you were asked a summary question concerning the assignment of teachers, et cetera, on the basis of race. And you answered yes, if I recall. Did you have in mind the same thing there that you previously testified to that you had in mind as to the characteristics of the race, the distinctions of the race itself? 88 A. I didn’t understand the question asked as you have stated it. The question I understood was if these schools now serve white pupils as they have heretofore and Negro pupils as they have heretofore and If we had requests for changes one to the other, and my answer was that the schools were still serving Negro pupils as they had heretofore and the white children were served in schools as they were heretofore, 6 and we had no changes of assignment, or had there been any made in my period of responsibility. And the same applied to faculty. I thought that is what I answered. Q. it may be that was your answer, but I wanted to make certain that you were c l e a r in your answer tojthe question. In With that/mind, would the reporter read the last question he was asked before he left the stand? (®ie court reporter read the three questions and answers appearing in this record beginning at Line 16 of Page 85 and continuing through Line 5 of Page 86) A. I was correct in my answer to the first two questions. I think I see in the third question an inference that I can clear up; namely, that the character of the white and colored pupils have been factor® and are factors in the operation of these schools. That has to do with their ability and with their achievement. MR. CEAHKADA: I believe that is satisfactory. MR. HELL: let me ask one question. F T EXAMINATION m MR. BELL; Q. Ia that correct, Mi*. Walker, that la making these evaluations of the factors that all Negroes, Including those few you recall who were exceptionally bright, are assigned to Negro schools? Is that correct? A. They are. Q. And all of the whites, regardless of their characteristics, abilities, good, bad or indifferent, are assigned to white schools? A. Are in school with other white children. That is correct. Q,. That*s right. Thank you. (Witness excused) THE COURT: Very well, take a recess until fifteen minutes 'til two. (Whereupon the court was recessed until 1:45 P.M.) After Recess MR. BELL: At the conclusion of Superintendent Walker's testimony, I believe the plaintiff's are about finished, and we therefore rest, with the understanding that we would have an opportunity to put on rebuttal witnesses at the conclusion of defendants and intervenors1 case. 90 THE COURT* Yea, you certainly have the ri#it to put on any rebuttal testimony. Very well. Whom will you have, Mr. Watkins? Are you ready to proceed? MR. CANNADA: Yes, ve are ready, Your Honor. We call Dr, Joseph Barker. DR. JOSEPH I. BARKER, called as a witness by the defendant and having been duly sworn, testified as follows* DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. CAJBJADA: Q. Give your name to the reporter. A. Joseph E. Barker. Q. For whom do you work, Dr. Barker? A. I ’ve been working five years with the Jackson Public School system. Q. Prior to that time, for whom did you work? A. I worked for a junior college in Florida. Q. Dr. Barker, would you give to the Court your educational degrees and where they were obtained? A. I have an AB Degree inonatheraatics in Mercer University in Macon, Georgia} {fester of Education degree from the same institution, in education and mathematics; and a Doctor’s degree from Florida State University in the field of supervision and educational measurements. Q,. And what has been your specialty, if any, since you have been r connected with the Jackson Municipal Separate School District? A. With standardized testing. Q. And in that capacity, what were you? A. Director of testing and special education. Q,. As director of testing and special education, what tests, if any, did you administer to the pupils of the Jackson Municipal Separate School District? A. We have a battery of school tests beginning with the first grade readiness test, which has already been spoken of briefly this morning. Q. A little louder. We test in reading, grades one through six, with a test that follows the completion of the reader and the basic reading program. We test for scholastic aptitude or intelligence in grades two, five and eight and ten. We test with achievement batteries in grades four through eight, and we give college qualification tests to all eleventh graders. Are all of these tests conducted under your supervision? They are. Do you get the results of these tests? Yes. Do you tabulate and use these results in any way? Yes, sir. What use do you put to these tests? All of these except the college qualification tests are given In early fall. During the Christmas holidays, ray office is responsible for the tabulation and the treatment of all data coming back from than from the various schools, and ve In turn treat them to facilitate the further study on the part of the various school staffs. Dr. Barker, you have heard the talimony of Mr. Kirby Walker previously in this case, I believe. Yes, sir. You understood him to testify that there vere, as far as this district is concerned, no Negro pupils attending schools attended by any white pupils, and no schools attended by white pupils predominantly attended by Negro pupils? Yes, sir. Do you know that to be true of your own knowledge? Yes, sir. Therefore, have you collated the information resulting from these various tests so as to show the results as to each of the races — that is, the Negro race and the white race? I have done such, yes. Are you familiar with the tables that were attached to the answers to the interrogatories filed in this case? Yes, sir. Did you actually prepare those schedules and tables? A. Yes, sir. Q, Are they correct, to the best of your Information and knowledge? A* They are. Q,. np. Barker, I hand you, og rather, I am placing on the stand a chart, and I ask you if you recognize this chart. A. X do. Q. What is it? A. It is a chart reflecting performance for the past fall, the present school year, on the metropolitan readiness test, a teat given to all first graders. Q, That is in the schools of the Jackson Municipal Separate School District? A. That is correct. MR. GAHElAm: We offer this as Exhibit 1 to the testimony * > of this witness. THE COURT: Let it be marked. (Same was received and marked as Defendant's Exhibit Wo. 1) Q. if you would, would you explain how this graph is made up? I see A, B, C, D, and E on the left margin. Explain what the figures represent. A. test, given very early in the fall to first graders, provides some measure of the readiness status of the pupil in two areas: reading and number readiness areas. The scale as provided in the test manual that is utilized is an A, B, C, D, E rating scale, with A designated as "superior" readiness status, C "average" readiness status, and E "poor risk" for doing adequate first grade work. As I mentioned, there are two areas that are tested: reading readiness and 94 and number readiness. For purposes of drawing up the chart, we weigh or assign numbers to these categories and then treat them arithmetically. The initials above the bar graphs represent the arithmetical mean performance in both b areas,and total performance for white pupils represented by the red bars and for Negro pupils represented by blue bars* Under reading readiness for white pupils — * that Is the red column to the left — the average performance with the scale score that we use is 3.5, which is a performance level above that of the national average, which in all Instances here would be 3*0. For reading readiness of Negro pupils, the average perfor mance was 2.3, which you see is below that of the national average performance* Likewise, in the number readiness area, white pupils performed as an average at the 3*6 index of the seals, which also is above average) wherein Negro pupils performed at the 2.6, which Is below average. A similar pattern exists for the total of these two scores. Incidentally, the total is not the arithmetically average of the two means, but has its own norm table from which these scores are derived. Q. Dr. Barker, I believe you said this was taken for this present year, that is the -63-'64 year, having been taken in the fall of 1963? A* That*s correct. 95 Did you make a similar test In the previous years that you have been with the Jackson Municipal Separate School District? Yes. Those are, of course, available and show essentially the same pattern. The same pattern every year you have been here? That*s correct. Did you look at the records prior to your coming to the district in this regard, to see if they show a pattern? Yes, I did. What did they show? A. They show a pattern identical to the one shown here. Q. I am placing in front of you another chart, which is labeled "Mean Intelligence Quotients SRA Primary Ability Test by Negro and White Students in Grades 2, 5, 8 and 10, Jackson, Mississippi, 1960-1963." Are you familiar with that table? A. I am. Q. Are those figures on there figures supplied by you? A. They are. MR. CAMNADA: We would like to offer this as Exhibit 2 to his testimony. TTHE COURT: let it be received in evidence and marked as Exhibit 2. (Same received and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 2) 96 Q. Now, Dr. Barker, if you will, explain that table to us. A. t h i * provides a record of average performance on the group intelligence test called the SRA Primary Mental Abilities Test on White and Negro Pupils in the Jackson Public School System for the years i960, 1961, 1962 and 1963. Q. Would you explain to us what the SRA Primary Abilities Tests are? test ^ l a is a widely used group/of scholastic aptitude that is structured along the lines of Thurston’s work with the various facets of intelligence. Hie score that we used, which is called the IQ Estimate is derived from a combination of two of the sub-tests in this battery. Hie particular com bination being that which correlates most highly with the success in school work that pupils earn in the immediate future. Is this test generally recognized and used throughout the nation? That is correct. 00 ahead with the table. It is given to all of the pupils in the 2nd, 5th, 8th and 10th grades of this district? \ Very, very few exceptions to that. I will refer primarily to the present school year. The table reflects that for the second graders numbering among white pupils 1966 that there was yielded an average IQ estimate quotient or score of about 105 points. At the same grade level for Negroes numbering more than 1500, there was a yielded average quotient of approximately 91 points. Q. All right. The Fifth grade. A. For the present year for the fifth graders, 1800 white pupils, approximately, there was an average quotient of 108} for the 1140, approximately, Negro pupils there was an average of approximately 86£. Q. Then your eighth grade? A. For the eighth grade, white pupils numbering 1529 there was yielded a quotient of approximately 107. For the nearly 1100 Negro pupils at that grade level there was yielded a quotient of approximately 78* Q. And the tenth grade? A. For the 1446 tenth graders there was yielded a score of approximately 105. For the 870 Negro pupils a score of approximately 78. Q, I see on that chart you have also for the years preceding, *60, *61, and *62, And those figures opposite those years are for the respective years. A. These figures show that at all the grade levels tested that the average quotients among the white pupils remains approximately the tome within each grade level, and a similar pattern exists within the specific grade levels for Negro pupils; so at a given grade, the pattern has been the same throughout this past four year period. Q. As I understand it, you do not have these tests for 11th or 12th graders? 98 These are all the tests that are given in this district? A. Of this nature, 79s. Q. I show you another chart that is labeled "Jackson, Mississippi, Metropolitan Achievement Tests 1965, Grade 4," Do you recognize this? A, Yes, X do. Q. Are the figures shown thereon figures supplied by you as a result of these tests you have administered? A* They are. MR. CARHADA: Ve offer this as Exhibit 3 to the testimony of this witness* THE COURT: let it be marked and received In evidence. (Same was marked end received in evidence as Defendant's Exhibit 3) Q. Would you explain this chart to the Court? A* The Metropolitan Achievement Tests are a well known and a widely used battery of Instruments that provide sees measure of development or proficiency in most of the areas, academic areas, that are significant in the public school process. The scale or score that is provided on these instruments is cal. 1 a "stanine," s-t-*~n-l~a~e. This stanine score is related to the percentages of pupils in the national norm group with this breakdown: A score of 1 in all instances and all grade levels and all sub-tests in the battery would represent performance similar to that of the lowest four percent in the national norm group. A stalne score of 2 would represent the ^7 performance of the next seven percent of the noiroal group. A score of 3 would represent the performance of the next twelve percent in the norm group. the performance of the next seventeen percent. A 5 would represent the performance of the middle twenty percent of all pupils in the norm group. How, the curve is spuetrical, so the same percentages diminishing now would relate to scores of 6, 7# 8 and 9, so that a 1 again is performance similar to the lowest four percent, while a 9 would be performance similar to the top four percent, There are several tests in the battery, including word knowledge, word discrimination, reading, spelling, a total language score, an arithmetical computation score, and another arithmetic score having to do with problem-solving and the understanding of arithmetical concepts. Is this test given to all fourth graders in this district? A. With very, very,very few exceptions, yes, sir. q . would you tell us the results,as reflected by that chart, for the year 1963? A. We have here with bar graphs shown the average or mean stanine performance for white and Hegro fourth graders for fall of »63, and all of the subject areas taken at this grade level. Word Knowledge, the red column to the left, we have an average |erformance of stanine 5*7 for white pupils, and stanine 3.2 for Ifegro pupils. In Word Discrimination, we 100 have scores of 5*8 for white pupils and 2.6 for Negro pupils. In the Reading area, we have average scores of 5.4 for white pupils, 2.7 for Negro pupils. In Spelling area, w© have an average score of 5.9 for white pupils and 2.6 for Negro pupils. In the Language Total area, we have a score of 5*5 for white pupils and 2.3 for Negro pupils. In the Arithmetic Computation area, we have an average of 5.0 for white pupils and 2.2 for Negroes. In the Arithmetic Problem Solving & Concepts area, we have a 5*4 for white pupils, and 2.3 for Negro pupils. In every instance toe performance of the white pupils is at or above the national average. In every Instance at this grade level the performance of Negro pupils is lower than the national average. Q. Is this pattern true with reference to prior years, or just 1963? A. We began to use this instrument in i960. Our records reveal that the pattern for fourth graders, white and Negro, for the years I960, 1961 and *62 are essentially identical to that shown here for 1963. Q. Before I ask you about toe next chart, in how many grades is this Metropolitan Achievement test given in this district? A. We administer it in grades 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8, Q,. You do not administer it above the 8th grade or below toe 4th grade? A. lhat1© correct. Q. Is there a particular reason for that? 101 A* We feel that with our philosophy that test results can help us work more effectively with youngsters, more effec tively with parents, more effectively with respect to program ming, that these are the important years as far as standardized tests are concerned for the utilization of such results for such purposes. As you know, we give other tests at other grade levels, but In teims of achievement testing, it is during the upper elementary and lower junior high years where battery testing, we feel, plays the greatest role with respect to helping youngsters. This Metropolitan Achievement Test, is this a generally recognized test used nationwide? Yes, it 1b , widely used nationwide. I have presented to you another chart labeled "Metropolitan Achievement Tests 196? Grade 5-" Do you recognize that chart? A. Yes, I do. Q. Did you supply the data on this chart? A. I did. MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 4. THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence. (Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant’s Exhibit 4) Q. Now, would you explain this chart as to the results, without as much detail as you did the previous chart? A. This is similar to the previous one. At this grade level, however, there are some new tests added! in particular, 102 two skills tests — language study skills and social study skills. The scales and so forth are identical. The performance of white pupils across the board are as follows* In Word Knowledge, average stanlne 5*6$ in Reading, 5»5; In Spelling, 5A; in Language Total, 5«3l In Language Study Skills, 5.9; in Arithmetic Computation, 5*9; in Arithmetic Problem Solving & Concepts, 5-9? in Social Studies Information, 5.0; in Social Studies Study Skills, 5*3; and in Science, 5.8. For Negro pupils the scores are, respectively, 2.3; 3.0; 3*0; 2.75 3-2; 3-8; 3*75 3-0; 3.^5 and 3.^. Q. nv>-t« is the aame grading scale that was used in the preceding exhibit? A. Exactly, and another feature of the stanlne is that the score itself is directly comparable from subject area to subject area; in other words, a score of 5 in Reading represents per formance on that section of the test that would be at the same level, for example, as a score of 5*0 in Science. In addition, it is comparable from grade level to grade level. An average of 5 one year, say, in the 5th grade and an average of 5 the following year in the 6th grade represents Identical perfor mance on this kind of thing. Q. That would indicate the normal growth of the youth from one year to the next year if he retains the same stanlne level? A. If the stanlne level remains static, that represents an average year*a growth, whatever it might — at vhat level It might have been, it has remained there. Q,. Vhat does this show with reference to white students, with reference to the national norm? A. Similar to the 4th grade picture, it shows that for white pupils performance in all ten stress of this battery of tests was at the national average or above, and in all Instances was below the national average far colored people. Q. And this test, I believe you testified, is administered to all students in the 5th grade area? A. That is correct. Q. X show you another graph and ask you if you recognise that? A . X do. Q. It is labeled "Metropolitan Achievement Test 1963 Grade 6." . Is the information appearing thereon information supplied by you? As a result of this testing? A. It is. Q. MR. C A m m u We'd like to offer this as Exhibit 5. (Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit Mo. 5) Q. I will ask you to explain this particular graph. A. This is similar to the graph for 5th graders. The testa, sub-test^ involved are identical! the same scales are used, and the average performances are as follows: For white pupils, Word Knowledge, 5.9j Reading 5-9; Spelling, 5.9i language Total, 5.8; Language Study 104 Skills, 6,2} Arithmetic Computation, 6.0) Arithmetic Problem Solving & Concepts, 6.3) Social Studies Information, 5.8) Social Studies Study Skills, 5.9) and Sclenoe, 5.9* The average scores for Negro pupils, respectively, are 2.4) 2.8) 3.2) 2.4; 5.0) 3.1) 3*2) 5-0) 3.2) and 2.9. Here again we see that the average performance in all subject areas tested here for white pupils is well above the national average, and for Negroes, below the national average. Q. Is the same test given to all the 6th grade pupils in this district? A. That*s correct. Q. «t%i1» is the same testimony you would bo giving about this particular graph as about the two previous graphs? That is correct. I show you another graph which is labeled "Metropolitan Achievement 1963, Grade 7." Do you recognise that? Yes, I do. Are the figures and information shown thereon figures supplied by you? A. They are, MR. CAHNADft.: Ve offer this as Exhibit 6. (Same received in evidence and marked as Defendants Exhibit No.6) Q. With reference to this exhibit, would you explain to us again — and I believe it would be more clear if you would take each one of the grades aa you go along to show the results of these tests. 105 A. I will. The same scale is used. This is the same battery of tests that have been previously spoken to. Performances here are as follows: Word Knowledge, for white pupils, 6.3, for Negro pupils, 2.91 Heading, white pupils, 5*8, Negro pupils, 2.6; For Spelling, white pupils, 5.6, and Negro pupils, 3*1; for Language Total, white pupils, 5 A, and Negro pupils, 2.5j for Language Study Skills, white pupils, 6.2, and Negro pupils, 3.0; for Art throe tic Computation, white pupils, 5*9, and Negro pupils, 2.75 for Arithmetic Problem Solving 3s Concepts, white pupils, 6.1, and Negro pupils, 3*55 for Social Studies Information, white pupils, 5*6, and Negro pupils, 3.1; for Social Studies Study Skills, white pupils, 5*6, and Negro pupils 2.9; for Science, whit© pupils, 5*8, and 3,0 for Negro pupils. Here again in every sub-test the average performance of white pupils was above the national average, and for Negroes, below. Q,. ttie same thing applies to this graph as applies to the same preceding graphs except that this is for the grade 7? A, Yea, sir. Q. I show you another graph which is entitled "Metropolitan Achievement Tests 1963 Grade 8." Do you recognize this? A. I do. Q. Is the information and the data shown thereon information and data supplied by you? THE COURT: Let It be received In evidence. (Same received In evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit no. 7) Q. Explain this graph. A. This graph represents performance on this achievement battery for 8th graders during the 1965 school year. The subject area© are the same as for previous years, and the stanine scale, of course, is identical. The performances for white and Negro pupils by subject areas are as follows: In the Word Knowledge area, 6.4 for white pupils, and 3.1 for Negro pupils; Reading, 6.1 for white pupils, 2.7 for Negro pupils; Spelling, 5.8 for white, and 3*4 for Negro pupils; language Total, 6.1 far white pupils and 2.9 for Negro pupils; language Study Skills, 6.2 for white pupils, 3.0 for Negro pupils; Arithmetic Computation, 6.2 for white pupils, 2.7 far Negro pupils; Arithmetic Problem-Solving & Concepts, 6.5 for white pupils and 3-3 for Negro pupils; Social Studies Infcaaation, 6.2 for white pupils, 3*1 for Negro pupils; in Social Studies Study Skills, 5.9 for white pupils, and 3.3 for Negro pupils; Science, 6.2 for white pupils, end 3.0 for Negro pupils. Here again in every sub-test the average performance of white pupils was above the national average; wherein the performance of Negro pupils in every sub-test area was below the national average. MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 7* Q. As I understand it, Dr. Barker, In all these Metropolitan Achievement tests which you say you have given and have testified to of the 4th through. 8th grades, the national norm is 5.0? A. That is correct. Q. In every instance the average of the white pupils has been equal to or above the national norm, .whereas the average for the Negro has been less than the national norm? A. That is correct. Q. Nov, with reference to all of these achievement tests — that is, the 4th through 8th grades — are you familiar with That such a graph would show for the years *6l, *62 and *65? A. Yes, I am. Q. What do they show? A. They show essentially at all grade levels the same pattern as do these for the fall of 1965 tests. Q. Has there been any change at all that you have been able to tell since you have been in this district? A, Not that I am able to tell. Q. Dr. Barker, I show you another chart or graph which has been labeled "Jackson, Mississippi, College Qualification Test 1965 Grade 11." Is the data and information appearing thereon data and information furnished by you? A. It is. Q. Is it true and correct aa presented thereon? A. It ia. 107 his testimony. THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence. (Same was received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No 8) Q. Dr. Barker, the first graph that you testified to was the Beadiness Test far 1st gradersj then the next, the Mental Intelligence Quotient Earned on SEA. Primary Ability Test? That's correct, isn't It? .-..V V ‘ .£'*:.>■ "• V v ? '- > ’ i " ' "■ ' ' Vy , v ' , ■’ ' , “ . . A. Primary Mental Ability Test. Yes. Q. All right. Now, you have previously been testifying of the achievement tests for the 4th through the 8th grades? A. Yes, sir. Q, Now, you said you did not take any achievement tests subsequent to the 8th grade that is similar to those that you have testified to for the 4th through 8th grade? A. Not as required or not in our basic testing program, no. Q. Now, what tests do you give to your 11th or 12th graders? A. W© administer in the spring to all 11th graders a test battery called the College Qualification Test. This instnaaent is a combination of both acquired knowledge and verbal and numerical ability. It was designed as a predictor of success in college. Q. Did you give that test in 1965? Q MR. CANNADAi We'd like to offer this as Exhibit 8 to 109 Q.« I new call your attention to the graph or chart Just intro duced as an exhibit to your testimony and ask if you would explain this chart to the Court? A. The score that is provided by this instrument is percentile. I an sure we are familiar with that kind of score. The areas that are tested, that were tested, are Verbal, Numerical, and Information Total score as yielded from the two additional areas, which are Information pertaining to Science and Information pertaining to Social Studies. There is also yielded a Total score, percentile score, for the entire battery. The performance on white pupils in the Jackson public schools is represented by the red broken line that you see In the upper part of the chart. The performance of the Negro pupils is represented by the blue broken line. Those per formances during this last fall were as follows: — With scores given as percentiles on the national norm table — For white pupils in the Verbal area, a mean percentile score of 58.7;for Negro pupils, 17.8. Q. Give us what the national norm is, or is there such on test? A. The national norm on percentile score for all tests is 50. For the numerical test, the mean percentile performance for white pupils was 60.0, and for Negro pupils, 27.6. The Information Total mean scores were, for white pupils, 61.2, and for Negro pupils, 25*5. The performance on Science Infor mation for white pupils was 56.9, and for Negro pupils, 27.5. no Par Information Social Studies the average percentile performance was 62.7 for white pupils, and 20.0 for Negroes. TOe Total score, percentile score, was 61.2 for white pupils and 20.7 for Negro pupils. Q. Dr. Barker, based on your experience in this district, is the result of this test similar to the results in previous years? A, They are. The pattern is essentially the same for the years 1961, '62 and'63. You have been testifying concerning these charts, 1 c a n your particular attention to the first chart, which was labeled "Mean Intelligence Quotients Earned on the SRA Primary Abilities Tests." Have you prepared a chart showing result of these tests in a graph form? Yes, I have. I have placed a chart before you. Do you recognise that chart as a presentation of those figures? A, I do« MR. CAKNADA.: We offer this as Exhibit 9. TOE CODIRT: Let it be received in evidence. (Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No.9i Q, Dr. Barker, would you explain this chart to us? A. This chart shows for grades 2, 5> 8 and 10 the mean performance during Pan, 1965, of white pupils in this school system and Negro pupils in this school system. This vertical scale to your left is IQ estimate. The hori zontal scale pertains to grade level. We see that Grade 2 Ill tor the present school year, white pupils, has a mean score of 104.7, which has been previously indicated on another chart. We see going throughout the grades that are tested — that is, 2, 5, 8 and 10, that this ability level stays relatively constant. lhe broken line in the lower part of the graph represents ability level or scholastic aptitude level of Ifegro pupils, Fall *63, in the same grade level, 2, 5, 8 and 10. We Bee hare a decline starting at 90.6 for second graders, and ending at 77*7 for tenth graders. Q. Dr. Barber, based on your experience, is this pattern similar to what your records show for preceding years? A » It is. Q. Till a particular graph, along with others, deal with, as we have said, ability or IQ. Would you explain to the Court the difference between this chart or the tests that are given in connection with these four grades, 2nd, 5th, 8th and 10th, as contrasted to the achievement graphs we have just shown that are given from 4th through 8th grades. A, The Primary Mental Abilities tests are a measure of scholastic aptitude or readiness to do school work in the immediate future, regardless of the grade level at which they are administeredi whereas, achievement tests provide a measure of the level of accomplishment in the various subject areas that are embodied in the battery. / 112 Q. So as to tills particular exhibit to which you attention is nov directed,, this measures or attempts to measure the ability of the student to learn? A. that’s correct. q . As distinguished from vhat he is actually doing in his grade? A. Correct. Q. I call your attention, to the original exhibits pertaining to your achievement tests, in which you have testified and identified the graphs showing the various subject matters from 4th through 8th grades. Have you prepared charts picking up the information from those five grades and putti rg them on a graph to demonstrate how the whites and Negro pupils have performed in this district? A. I have. q . x show you here a graph, which is labeled 'Vord Khovledge Metropolitan Achievement Test.” Do you recognise this? A. I do. q . ia thin a demonstration, a showing, of the information contained on the previous charts to which you testified? A. It is. MR. GANHAEA: We offer this as Exhibit 10. (Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 10) Q. Nov, Dr. Barker, would you explain this chart? A. We have shown on previous charts the performance of white and Negro pupils per grade level for any given chart. This chart shows the performance at all grade levels tested. <7 Q. Which srade levels are those? A* 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 for this particular chart. We show the average performance in the sub-test area of Word Knowledge for tiiite pupils and far Negro pupils. The scale is the stanine coale. Q« what does it shew with reference to the white pupils in the national norm? A. It shows with reference to the white pupils that in the Word Knowledge area at 4th grade level an average performance of 5.7 staninej 5th grade, 5-6; 6th grade, 5*9; 7th grade, 6.3; and 8th grade, 6.4. Q, What do you show for Negroes? A. For Negro pupils it shows average performance, grade 4, 3*2; grade 5, 2.3i grade 6, 2.4; grade 7# 2.9* and grade 8, 3.1. Q. Now, Dr. Barker, in the exhibit: that you have Just previously- testified to, which was marked Exhibit 9, you testified that it showed that at the 2nd grade they were much closer together, the Negro and white pupils, and as they progressed to the 10th grade, Insofar as their ability to learn is concerned, the difference between them widened. A, lfcat's correct. Q,. That is upon your IQ or Ability to Learn tests given? A. That's correct. Q. Now, what does this chart that we are now testifying to, Exhibit 10, show with reference tothe two races insofar as the Word Knowledge is concerned? A. It shows that the performance of white pupils increases slightly throughout the gawde level in the area of Word Knowledge, and that the performance of Negro pupils generally Is such as to reflect that they are ’’holding their ovn1’ on this kind of thing. Q* Dr. Barker, I show you another chart which is similar to the on© to which you have just testified. Shis purports to be a chart for Reading for Metropolitan Achievement Test for *625. Do you recognize this chart? A . X do« Q. Did you fhmlshthe inform tion being inserted thereon? &. I did. MR. CAHNADM We offer this as Exhibit Number* 11. (Same received In evidence and marked as Defendant’s Exhibit No. 11) Q, Now, would you explain this graph? A. gits is mean performance, grades 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 on the Metropolitan Achievement Test for present school year for white pupils and Negro pupils. The chart shows that for white pupils beginning with Grade 4 with an average performance of 5.4, Going across to Grade 8 with an average performance of 6.1, a slight increase in performance level throughout that grade Interval. For Negro pupils beginning with a performance of 2.7 at the 4th grade and 2.7 for the 8th grade, it shows a fairly constant level of performance throughout the grade intervals. Q. Is this the same inf oration actually that was taken from other preceding charts Introduced? A. It Is. Q. I show you another graph, which Is labeled "Spelling - Metropolitan Achievement Test, Mean Stanine by Grade" and ask you if you recognize this. A. I do. Q. Did you furnish the Information and data that is reflected thereon? A. I did. MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit Number 12. THE COURT: Let It be received. (Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant*s Exhibit No. 12) Q. Dr. Barker, would you explain this chart to the Court? A. This chart is taken froma previous chart, Metropolitan Readiness Test, and it shows average performance in the area of spelling during grades 4, 5* 6, 7 and 8 for the present school year 1963. Those performances were as follows; For white pupils, beginning with a performance level of 5.9 at the fourth grade, 5*4 at the fifth, 5*9 at the sixth, 5*6 at seventh, and 5.8 at grade 8, a fairly constant performance level among those various grade levels. For colored pupils or Negro pupils this shows an average performance starting with 2.6 at grade four, 5.0 at grade five, 3.2 at grade six, 3.1 at grade 7# 5.4 at grade 8, a slight tendency to rise with grade level for Negro pupils. Q. This is the same information reflected on previous charts that A. That is correct. q . x show you another chart which has been labeled "language, Total, Metropolitan Achievement Test," and ask you if you recognize that. A. Ido. Q,. Is the information and data shown thereon information and data furnished by you? A. It Is. MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit Number 13 THE COURT: Let It be received in evidence. (Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant*8 Exhibit No. 13) Q. Dr. Barker, I will ask you to explain this chart. A. This is a chart showing the Language, Total, performance on the Metropolitan Achievement Test, Grades 4 through 8, for the 1963-64 school year. The white performance of white pupils for grade 4 at average stanine 5«5i grade 5# 5»3> grade 6, 5 «8| grade 7, 5.4; and grade 8, 6.1, showing overall a relatively constant performance level in these various grade levels. It shows for Negro pupils beginning with grade 4 an average performance of 2.3J grade 3# 2*7> grade 6, 2.4; grade f, 2.5i and grade 8, 2.9, a reasonably constant performance level throughout the five grade level. Q. These are showing that the two groups, as such, are progressing grade by grade in accordance with what would be anticipated based on their previous years* showing? A. They are showing that the performance is remaining for both 117 groups relatively constant. Q, Dr. Barker, I show you another chart which is labeled "Language Study Skills, Metropolitan Achievement Test,” and ask you if you recognize this? A. X do. Q. la the data and information contained thereon data and information furnished by you? A. It is. MR. G A M A T A : We offer this as Exhibit 14. THE COURT: Let it be received. (Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant’s Exhibit No. 14) Q. Will you explain this graph to the Court? A. This is the results of another subject area test, Language Study Skills, that shows for the 1963 school year the average performance of pupils In the grade 5 ---- And I make note here, this test is not given in the 4th grade battery; consaqaently the broken 11 nes do not run out to 4th grade level, but comae nee with grade 5* — The performance of white pupils was as follows: Grade 5, 5.9; grades 6, 7 and 8, 6.2 in each of those grades. For Negro pupils, 3*2 at the 5th grade; and at grades 6, 7 and 8, 3.0 for those. Q. Again a relatively stable performance by both groups? A. It’s relatively constant throughout those four grade levels. Q. And the national norm is 5.0? A, That is correct. 118 Q. Dr. Barker, I give you here another chart, which is labeled "Arithmetic Components," and ask you if you recognize that. A« X do. Q. Did you furnish the data and information appearing thereon? A. I did. MR. CANNADA: We offer this as Exhibit 15. THE COOHP: let it be received in evidence. (Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant^ Exhibit No. 15) Q. Will you explain this chart? A. This reflects performance in the sub-test area of arithmetic computation, commencing with the 4th grade, present school year; the average performance of white pupils at 4 grade was 5*0; at 5th grade, 5.9; at 6th grade, 6.0; at 7th grade, 5.9; and at 8th grade, 6.2. In this particular area there has been throughout the grade level a slight trend to increase. For Negro pupils the performance was as follows: At 4th grade, 2.2; at 5th grade, 3.8; at 6th grade, 3.1; at 7th grade, 2.7; and at 8th grade, 2.7* — Fairly constant or, if any trend, a slight rise. Q. The same observation could be made as to this chart as to the others in tills particular series? A. That is correct. Q. I show you another chart, which is labeled "P. S. & C. Metropolitan Achievement Test," and ask you if you recognize that. A. I do. A. It is. ME. GAMMA.: We offer this as Exhibit 16. •THE COURTS let it be received in evidence. (Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 16) q . Dr. Barker, would you explain tills graph to the Court? A. is the sub-test problem-solving and concepts for the present school year, grades 4 through 8, lor white and Negro pupils. Tbe performance for white pupils was as follows: At grade k, 5A for white pupils; at grade 5, 5*9l at grade 6, 6.3; at grade 7» 6.1; and at grade 8, 6.5 — if anything, a slight trend to increase. For Negro pupils, the performance was as follows: At grade 4, 2.3; at grade 5# 3*7$ at grade 6, 3*2; at grade 7, 3.5; at grade 8, 3.3. There is a tendency of remaining reasonably constant beyond this grade level. q . rphe same observation could be made with reference to this graph as with reference to the the graphs to which you have just testified? A. Correct. q . Dp. Barker, I show you another graph,labeled "Social Studies, Metropolitan Achievement Test," and ask you if you recognize that. A. I do. Q. Is the data and information appearing thereon data and information furnished by you? A. It is. MR. CARMDA .1 We offer this as Exhibit 17. THE COURT: let it be received in evidence. (Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 17) Q. Dr. Barker, would you explain this graph to the Court? A. is a sub-test, Social Studies. The comments pertaining to the identification of it given for the previous chart hold for this. The average performance of white pupils: Grade 4, 5«0; g r a d e ----— I'm sorry. I retract that last statement. The average performance for white pupils beginning with grade 5 as follows: Grade 5, 5.0; grade 6, 5.8; grade 7, 5.6; and grade 8, 6*2 — a trend to increase throughout the four grade levels involved. The average performance for Negro pupils was as follows: For grade 5, 3.0; grade 6, 3-0; grade 7» 3»lJ grade 8, 3.1. Here the tendency has been to maintain a relatively constant level of achievement. q . And the same comments would be made with reference to this chart as is true with reference to the preceding charts in this group? A. That is correct. q . i show you another chart,which is labeled "Social Studies, Study Skills, Metropolitan Achievement Test," and ask you information furnished by you? 121 if you recognize this. A* X do• Q. Is the data and Information appearing thereon data and Information furnished by you? A . It is• MR. CANNAE&: We offer this as Exhibit 18. TEE COURT: let It be received in evidence. (Sane received in evidence and marked as Defendant13 Exhibit No.18) Q. Dr. Barker, would you explain this graph to the Court? A. This graph reflects performance in the Social Studies Skills area. Other comnents pertaining to the graph itself would apply as made with respect to the previous charts. The performances, beginning with Grade 5* for white pupils were as follows: Grade 5, 5*3$ grade 6, 5«9) grade J, 5.6; grade 8, 5.9 — a relatively constant pattern; if any thing, a slight trend to increase. For Negro pupils, the average performances were: For grade 5, 3»^J for ferade 6, 5.2; for grade 7t 2.9; for grade 8, 3.5 — a fairly constant or level pattern of achievement. Q,. The same observations could be made with reference to this chart as the preceding charts in this group? A. That*s correct. ^ Q,. I show you one more chart, that is labeled, "Science, Metropolitan Achievement Test," and ask #ou if you recognize that? 122 Q. Is the data and Information appearing thereon data and Infor mation furnished by you? A. It Is * A. I do. MR. CANDIAEA: We offer this as Exhibit 19. THE COURT: Let it be received in evidence. (Same received In evidence and marked Ad Defendant' s Exhibit No. 19) Q,. Dr. Barker, would you explain this test? This is the tenth test of the battery. The performance of white pupils, beginning with grade 5* In the area of science were as follows: 5.8j grade 6, 5.9; grade 7# 5.8; and grade 8, 6.2. The average performances of Negro pupils were as follows: Grade 5, 5.4; grade 6, 2.9; grade 7, 5.0j and grade 8, 5.0. There is a reasonably constant pattern of achievement level of performance for both white and Negro pupils. I believe you testified that these patterns as shown by these series of charts are substantially the same patterns as that of prevtus years? That is correct. MR. CAHKADA: 13iat is all we have. THE COURT: Any direct examination by any of the other defendants or by the interveners? MR. SHELL: Yes, we have acme questions. ME. 12SQ3SAED; Should w© precede the plaintiff? THE COURTs Yea, I think so. DIRECT EXM2HATICK BY m , IEOKAKDt Q. (to the charts you have shown us, I notice that these U n * « occasionally go up and occasionally go down, but In each of these 1 areas they appear to have a pattern of their own. Is this & constant pattern by subject? In other sards, are all the subjects the sane, or do they differ in these charts? You notice, sometimes the lines diverge and sometimes they converge, and sometimes they Just aeam to have a pattern of their own. Are they consistent, or are they merely teat differences? A. You can have various answers at a given grate level,from ant grade to another, because in sea® respects you are dealing with slightly different performance levels. Of course, many other factoid 'nter into it too. But Just the mere fact that an average etanine score of 2.3 for one grade level and 2.4 for the next grade level, that la of little significance, as I see it, vlth respect to planning the programs of the pupils. Q* Well, are there any — In taking your past six or seven exhitifca, you hove sea® in which your whit c students are increasing at a tin® when your Ifegro students are holding steady. You have bob® in which the white students are decreasing, and the Negroes are increasing. You have others which appear to diverge eocrxxily and others to hold parallel. What I am asking Is, arc these mere test differences, or do they reflect diffamxses in interest and subject ability of the pupils? 124 A. Veil, we do, in the tost results from the last four years, do have a consistent pattern, whatever that might be, with respect to the various subject areas that are tested. Now, as to what accounts for these trends or differences, I am not qualified to answer. Q. I wasn’t asking that. I am merely asking what you have answered. There is a consistent pattern? A. We have not made an analysis with respect to the particular areas in which these trends exist, as to what they are, nor as to why they exist. Dr. Barker, tell me one thing: I notice that on your SRA Primary Mental Abilities test you had a constant divergence, year by year, between the white and Negro schools That is correct. How do you measure achievement tests on the Metropolitan Achievement tests in terms of using the ability of the individual involved? Is there any correlation you can draw? For example# you have at the 2nd grade on your exhibit for the Primary Mental Abilities test 106 for whites and 94 for Negroes. A. Yes. Q. Nov, presumably those two groups on the average would not achieve precisely the same, while attending the second grade. Is that correct? A. Correct. Q,. Is there any correlation you can make to find out whether you are teaching them up to their ability? I fcMnif the test results show quite clearly that throughout the grade level the Negro pupil here in the Jackson public schools becomes mare and more what we call an over-achiever. Now, the word -— Would you explain that? Yes. When we talk about achieving at expected level or under-achieving or over-achieving, w© normally, in the educational field, base primarily this reference point as aptitude or ability to perform. Now, if a pupil has low ability, relatively, or if a group of pupils have low ability, then it is reasonable to expect typically that performance likewise will be low because,after all, the ability test itself is the best predictor we have through standardised testing to predict achievement in the subject area. Now, if a pupil is performing, or if a group of pupils is performing below what you might expect with respect to their ability, then they are unde:?-achieving. On the other hand, if they are performing beyond that level at which you would expect with respect to their ability, they are over-achievers, ihese data show clearly to me that our Negroes in the Jackson public schools are over-achievers, or else their achievement level would drop with an increase in grade level, as does the scholastic aptitude score. Look at the last exhibit on top there, the one on Science, and if you will look at the grade running from the 5th to the 126 8th, you have a relatively straight line for the Negro child. A. Yes, sir. Q. How, during that period of time, as I understand your exhibit on the Primary Mental Abilities Test, relatively norm. A. It would be expected that that would happen. Q. So that where it Is, I take it, shewn on a level as it is here, you have in fact held them up to a level in spite of the dropping off of the mental abilities as shown by the SRA test? speaking, the Negro children in Jackson got a lower and lower rating? Is that correct? A. On the intelligence test, yes. Q. So that if the achievement here had followed the dropping on the mental abilities test, the SRA. test, then this line would also have dropped, because it's against the national A. That *s correct. Q,. And is that difference you are talking about now over- achievement? A. That is correct. Q. In other words, as you are now testifying, you are not only making full use of their abilities, but you are holding them up to a grade standard in this system beyond that which the SRA test would tend to show? A. That seems abundantly clear to me. 127 Q. Thank you, Doctor. THE COURT: Are there further questions by the defendant? MR. w a r m s : No, sir. THE COURT: Very veil. Cross examine. MR. BELL: Your Honor, we are not going to cross examine this witness. As a matter of fact, we would make a proper move, a general objection or move to strike the testimony. I would Ilk® to say a word or two as to why we are not going to cross examine this witness and the basis of our objection to this type of testimony. Now, the plaintiffs don’t have any information available to them that would enable us to determine whether all of these charts and all of this data Dr. Barker has given to us Is true or not. We would hope that most of it is substantially true and accurate. And to the extent that it Is true, the plaintiffs submit that it supports the opinion of sons of the plaintiffs who testified earlier tills moral ng that the products of the Negro schools are Inferior to those of the whites, that the education that the Negro children are receiving is not as good as that being made available to the students in the white schools. Now, as I indicated earlier this morning in my opening statement, the Brown decision of 2954 said that even if the tangible factors of the school are equal, that separate schools violate the plaintiffs’ constitutional rights® In this case and with this testimony, the defendants have beyond any doubt either than, one, the Negro schools are inferior, in which case desegregation would be required even under the old Plessy-Ferguson doctrine; or, two, they have shown that Negroes are as a group, as a race, as a class, inferior as far as education is concerned. And this second concept, of course, flies in the face of all other state laws, the United States Constitution, and, if we may submit, common sense. The issue in this case, as the Courts have previously held, is whether of not the schools are segregated; and if the schools are segregated, as this circuit has said frequently, then what kind of plan of desegregating should be brought in, and when it should take effect. We have attempted to show that the schools are segregated, and it appears that the defendants admit that this is so and are here attempting to justify that segregation. Shis, as we also indicated this morning, is not novel nor new, and we support our general objection to continuing with this type of testimony and refer the Court to the early Fifth Circuit decision — relatively early, back In 1957 — in one of the phases of the New Orleans school case litigation. The title there was Orleans Parish School Board vs. Bush, 242 Fed.2d 156, at Page 165, where the Court reviewed parts of the record tending to show that Negroes as a class were less able to learn than their white counterparts, and therefore a classification based on race was justifiable. The Court 129 said that it was interesting that there had been suggestion by the defendant board of a classification of students based on ability to learn, and they felt if such a classification had been suggested that the court would have no objection to it and didn’t feel the Constitution would have any objection; but as to the classification based on race, the court said — and I quotes "it is unthinkable that an arbitrary classification by race because of the more frequent identification of one race than another with certain undesirable qualities would be a reasonable classification." For that reason, Your Honor, we would generally object to all this type of testimony and have no cross examination. OHE COURT: At this time I will overrule the objection. You may step down. (Witness excused) (Whereupon the court was recessed for ten minutes) After-Recess MR. WATKINS: We'd like to call John Bell Williams. JOHN BRIL WILLIAMS, called as a witness and having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIREC TEXANnew[•KM BY MR. WATKINS: Q. Please state your name. A. John Bell Wil.ll.aRB 130 Q. Your age? A. 45, I believe. Q,. Where do you live? A. My home Is In Raymond, Mississippi. Q. What Is your educational background? A. I graduated from hi#i school at Raymond, Mississippij graduated from Junior College at Raymond, Mississippi; and attended the University of Mississippi and the Jackson, Mississippi, School of Law. I am a lawyer by profession, a member of the Mississippi State Bar. Q. Are you a member of Congress? A, I am. Q. What district do you represent? A. At present I represent the district designated as the Third Congressional District of the State of Mississippi. Q. Does that include the City of Jackson? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long have you been a Mississippi representative in Congress? .A. I took the oath of office on January 3rd, 1947. That makes, I believe I ’m in tny 18th year of service. Q. Congressman, please state the congressional comaittees of which you are a member, together with the length of time you have been amember of each committee. A. I am a member of the House Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, and I have been a member of that committee since my appointment to that committee in 1951* I am also a member of the committee on the District of Columbia, and I believe that I vent on that committee In 1955* as well as I recall. q . Please tell the Court whether, as a member of the Gocmittee on the District of Columbia, you have had occasion to make a study and investigation of the public schools of the District of Columbia. A. In 1956 by direction of the Comittee on the District of Columbia, & special subcommittee was set up to investigate — May I make reference to the exact title?— to investigate public school standards and conditions and juvenile delinquency in the District of Columbia. The chairman of that committee was Honorable James C. Davis of the State of Georgia. I was appointed as the ranking Democratic member of that committee, and serving with us on that committee were Honorable Woodrow W. Jones of the State of North Carolina, with the Republican members Honorable A. L. Miller of the State of Nebraska; Honorable Joel T. Broyhill of the State of Virginia; and Honorable DeWitt S. HJyde of the State of Maryland. I served as a member of that committee, and we took tes timony from a number of witnesses in the District of Columbia Public School System. I believe that we took some two weeks of testimony which covered some five hundred pages of transcript. Q. Do you have there & copy of the report of that camlttee on its findings? A, I do. HR. WA.TKH5S: If it please the Court, I ’d like to offer the cocmittee report in evidence as an exhibit in this case. MR. BELL; Your Honor, ve are going to object to the admission of that report as completely Irrelevant to any of the issues involved in this case. The issue here primarily is -whether or not the schools in the city of Jackson are segre gated as far as race 1b concerned. What the situation in Washington is, what the findings of this particular coranittee are are completely irrelevant to that, as far as we have been able to find from the pleadings. HR. WAIKERS: We expect to show that the situation is comparable in that the percentages of population are sub stantially the same, and we expect to show by this witness and by the committee*a report what happened with bo£h races as a result of the integration of the schools in Washington, D. C., in all phases, from questions of deportment, from scholastic achievement, on up aid down the line, how a good school system for both races deteriorated as a result of the integration of those schools. And it is a matter that is carefully documented and itemised. This witness knows of itj he participated in it, and this Congressional reports comments on it and brings out step by step, and it is competent to show what will happen to the schools of this district if this Court f requires them to be Integrated as were the District of Columbia schools. MR. BELL: I add a further objection, with all due regard to the Congressman. I must confess that I have never had a Congressman testifying In any school cases in which I ’ve been involved. It is somswhat of a different experience. But t M R particular report, if aimed at proving what counsel indicates he hopes to prove by It, is certainly further incompetent by reason of the fact that It is a document that has been subject to a great deal of controversy, with It being hailed as an outstanding document by those who wish to preserve segregation and condemned heartily as a political document by those who believe the desegregation is the way the school system Should be run. For a further reason, we would suggest that the document, testimony based on it, are Incompetent to this case. tot?. CO0ET: I will overrule the objection. I think the obje ction goes to the weight, rather than the admissibility. The document is authorized by a resolution of Congress to be made, and I think under those circumstances it is one of the facets that might be considered by the Court in determining the Issue here; so I overrule the object43a and will let It be received. (Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant’s Exhibit No. 20) MR. WATKINS: Your Honor, the Congressman states that I took h** copy away from him, and he has some notes he has 135 added in pencil and pen on it. May I have & copy that has not been narked on in any respect substituted for the exhibit, rather than the one the Congressman has? THE COURT: Yes. (Sane was substituted) TOE WITNESS; Would you like me to Identify that as being & true and correct copy? MR. WATKINS: Yes. See if this is a correct copy of the committee1 s report. This is a copy of the report of the subcoomittee following the investigation. MR. WATKINS: Then we offer this copy. (Same previously marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 20) Please tell the Court whether prior to 195*1- and the Brown decision by the Supreme Court the schools of the District of Columbia were segregated or integrated. The District of Columbia operated a segregated school system, Division A being the white schools and Division B being the colored schools. Tae schools operated under a single school board, under a single superintendent of schools, but each division had its own superintendent and own principals, its own teachers; so in response to your question, the answer is that prior to 1954 separate school systems were operated. ■hen. were the schools of the District of Columbia integrated? The schools of the District of Columbia were integrated in the fall of the school year beginning in 1954. I believe that was some five or six months following the Supreme Court*s Decision of May 17th. Q. What effect, if any, did integration of the schools have on the size of the white population In the District? A. I think it is quite evident that the act of integrating the public school system in the District of Columbia brought about a mass exodus of white residents from the District of Columbia into the suburbs, which at that time were tdally segregated. As a matter of fact, if it*s permissible, I have in my hand the population figures as shown by the 1950 census and the i960 census, which show that in 1950 the white population of the District of Columbia which amounted to some 65 percent of the total population was 517,865 people. The Negro population of the District of Columbia in 1950 was 280,805. By I960, six years following the integration of the schools, the white population had declined by some 172,602 people to a total of 5^5,265, while the Negro population had risen by 120,954 people to a total of 411,757. So the ratio of Negroes to whites rose from 55 percent colored and 65 percent white in 1950 to a figure of 55 percent colored and 45 percent white in i960. Q. And by 1956 what effect had integration had on the ' percentage of white and Negroes in the schools? A. May I make reference to the school report,which contains those figures? 136 Q. Yes. A. I believe I have that here in more condensed form. Q. All right. Of a total enrollment in the public school system of the District of Columbia in 1954 — that was the first year of Integration — it showed a total of 60.8 percent Negro. Of a total enrollment of 110,041 students in 1957, that had risen from 60.8 percent to 71*3 percent Negro. By i960 out of a total school population of 122,879, that had risen to 79.6 percent Negro. Out of a total enrollment in the school year 1962, that's the school year Just ending, out of a total of 139,156 students enrolled, the total Negro population in this school had risen to 85.5 percent, leaving a proportion of 85.5 percent Negro and 13•5 — or 14.5 percent white. And the white population of the public school system of the j District of Columbia is still on the decline. What has been the effect of integration on the scholastic standards on the schools of the District? I can testify only as to the findings of the committee which investigated the schools in 1956 for those two years of integration. My answer to that is that definitely there had been a lowering of standards in the public school system, which was admitted by the officials of the public school system. Were national standardized educational achievement and IQ tests given in the schools of the district during the 1955- 1956 school year? It was testified before the committee by the school officials that tests were given. Did you say achievement tests? Yes, achievement and IQ. Achievement and IQ tests were given. What did the tests show with respect to the IQ's of Negro and white children as compared to the national average for the third grade? For the third grade? Yes, sir. The citywide tests, third grade, California Test of Mental Maturity, which was an IQ test, showed that In the all white schools, or predominantly white schools of the District of Columbia----Perhaps I should clarify that by spying that In 195^ the schools sytem of the District of Columbia stopped keeping figures by race. It was necessary for the committee, in order to get the complete picture of the situation, to cate gorize the schools of the District of Columbia into predominantly white and predominantly Negro and heavily integrated schools. ---- The predominantly white schools ran as high as 98 and 99 percent white, sad the predominantly Negro schools ran about at the same proportion colored. Ihe heavily Integrated schools ran from 55 to 65 percent of one race. Now, in the third grade, California test of mental maturity, primary form, out of 10,098 third-grade pupils tested, showed that Group 1, which was the predominantly white school--- that*8 22 elementary schools 99 percent white — showed an average IQ rating of 105, five points above the national average. The Integrated group, which is group III, the average IQ was 96 — between I and II — while the second group, which is all colored or predominantly or 99 percent colored, the average IQ was 87, whioh Is thirteen points below the national average. So for comparison we find that the white schools were five points above the national average, while the Negro schools were thirteen points below the national average. Q. Was the Stanford Achievement Test given for thatsame third grade? Yes, it was. What was the result of that? The citywide achievement, Stanford Achievement Teat, reading and arithmetic, primary form J, Grade 3, composed of five objective tests which included paragraph meaning, word meaning, spelling, arithmetic reasoning, arithmetic compute- tion, showed that the oitywide average on these tests was 2.5, almost one grade below the national average. However, when you get Into the white schools and you check those out, you fl rd that the grade placement, 3*1, was exactly on the grade average. Group II, which was the integrated group, brought it down to 2.2, one grade below the natlonalaveragej and the predominantly N e g r o ----Oh, I*m sorry. That was the the Negro schools. Group 2 is the predominantly Negro. — The integrated schools, grade placement, 2.6, one-half grade below the national average, and between Group I and Group U . Please state whether the results of the tests given the 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 11th, and 12th grades were comparable to those of the third grade. The results. The results were comparable, yes. What effect did these tests have on those charged with the administration of the schools of the District? They were quite surprised to find the wide disparity between the colored and white schools in regard, particularly, to achievement, as well as intelligence tests. The result was that they had to reorganize their school standard. It was necessary for them to reduce their school standards, and they also found it necessary, according to some of the teachers, to spend more time trying to keep order in the classroom than they were able to spend in teaching the children. They found it necessary, so it was testified, to reorganize their promotional standard, for instance, to to the point where the president of the school board, as well as I recall, testified that students were being promoted on the basis of age, height and weight, rather than on scholastic achievement. Did the disparity between the races decrease or increase In the higher grades? The disparity In achievement, you mean? Yes. The disparity Increased as the grades went higher, and that is shown definitely by statistical data which was furnished to the committee and which was furnished by the District of Columbia School Board itself. Did the schools of the District have many unusual disciplinary problems before integration? It was testified that they did not have any significant disciplinary problems prior to integration. That was testified by numerous teachers, principals, and other officials of the District of Columbia schools. And have there been any unusual disciplinary problems in the schools since integration? Yes, sir. It was testified at one school In particular that It was necessary to call the police at least 25 times during one school year to quell disturbances and to assist in maintaining discipline in the school. It was testified at another schools that it was necessary for them to keep policemen patrolling the corridors. One teacher after another, one principal after another, testified, as I mentioned a moment ago, that they spent most of their time trying to maintain order in the classroom and found precious little time in which to instruct their students. What effect— — To give you an example, the subject of vandalism came up in the schools. We found that in 1955~*56 that they had to put an expenditure of some — they had to designate some $50,000.00 for the purpose of replacing broken windows in the buildings. I contacted the District of Columbia Board of Education and found the other day that in the current fiscal year, or in the current fiscal budget, a hundred thousand dollars is set aside for that purpose. So it appears to be on the increase, rather than the decrease. What effect has this had on the teachers of the District? Well, the teachers themselves, I think perhaps their testimony would provide a much better answer certainly than I could provide, because I simply listened to the testimony that was given by the teachers, but many of the teachers found it desirable * to apply for early retirement. Others stated that they were — and I quote — "nervous wrecks," and others stated that they were performing a most frustrating task in attempting to teach in these schools under these conditions. If you would permit me to elaborate on that Just a bit, I would read some of the testimony as it appears in this report. You are now reading from the exhibit. Excerpts from the testimony of the school personnel. This bdgins on page 25 of the report. I won't belabor the Court with reading all of this, but I would simply refer the Court to the testimony quoted from Mr. John Paul Collins, on page 25: "Fighting, including several knifings, vent on continuously. While such incidents had occurred occasionally in previous years, they became more or less commonplace following inte gration, to the point of creating a serious disciplinary problem. “There have been more thefts at Eastern High in the last two years than I had known in all my thirty-odd years in the school system. A teacher still at Eastern...."— This is the testimony of the former principal at Eastern High School. — "A teacher still at Eastern told me recently that stealing is now so rife at the school that it is no longer practical to attempt to report all stealing incidents."... "I heard two colored boys making obscene remarks about a whie girl who was passing in the hall. I promptly suspended these boys until such time as I could get satisfactory assurances from their parents that they would discontinue such conduct."... "Prior to integration," he said, "I loved and lived with my work, but the problems which I encountered after integration has brought about a lowering of public school standards and student academic achievement in the District of Columbia public schools. It has created problems of discipline that have disrupted educational processes." Other witnesses, Mrs. Katherine Reid, one of the teachers difficult. I found it very hard to make the colored children do what I told them. And one day I was talking to a little colored girl, and one of the colored boys said, "Miss Reid, why don*t you stop talking to her and bat her over the head, the way her last teacher did," until we wondered if they used corporal punishment in division II." — I believe a moment ago I referred to it as Division B, but it*s Division I and Division II, Division I being the white schools. Mrs. Reid said, "There was constant fighting in the classrooms between colored and colored, and sometimes between colored and white. They would bat each other over the head with books. The teachers have become very nervous and upset. I am not saying all, but some have." Mr. Arthur Storey testified along the same lines. Mr. Wilmer Bennett of the school system; Mrs. Dorothy Denton, and numerous others; Mrs. Elva Wells, the principal of Theodore Roosevelt High School, I believe, testified to very much the same thing. All of this is in the report which has been introduced in evidence, I believe, and I won*t belabor the Court by reciting that further unless it is desired. Q. Have there been any other developments which have come to your attention subsequent to the report of the committee in one of t he schools t "After integration the disciplinary problem vas very 144 ■with reference to the schools? A The public school system In the District of Columbia has been a constant source of controversy, to say the least, in the District of Columbia. Numerous studies, private studies, h a w been made of the District public schools by private groups with their own personal axes to grind, but the fact remains that the white population of the District of Columbia continues to flee to the States of Virginia and Maryland, where the schools are either all white or predominantly white, to escape the low standards of the schools which they have in the District of Columbia. As a matter of fact, the present superintendent, Dr. Hansen, has been under a great deal of fire in recent months becauseof the low standards that prevail and obtain in the Washington public school system. The Court might be interested to know that in 1955 the operational cost of the schools on a per student basis was $266.00 per year per student. The figures which are contained in the current appropriations bills under which the public schools of the District of Columbia are operating now, when divided by the number of students in the public school system of the District of Columbia, shows that the current operating per student cost of the District of Columbia schools has risen from the $266.00 figure in 1955 to a current figure of $477*00 per student, which is an increase of $211.00 per student since 1955* A. Since the schools were integrated, yes. MR. WATKINSs I believe that is all. Your witness. MR. BELL: We would, Your Honor, merely renew our objection, pointing out in support of our objection to this testimony, that the report shows that its members — and there were six persons on the subcommittee — and five of the six, JaraBs C. Davis of Georgia, John Bell Williams of Mississippi, Woodrow W. Jones of North Carolina, Joel T. Broyhill of Virginia, and DeWitt S. Hyde of Maryland — five of the six cam© and were representing states which were directly affected by the 195^ Supreme Court Decision — that is, that decision would have required a change in the method of the operating of schools in the states from which these men came. Further, there was only one other man who came from a state where the decision of *54 would not have a direct effect, and he was A. L. Miller. Now, it is, we feel, significant in amplifying our earlier objection, that two men, Congressman Miller and Congressman Hyde, — Congressman Miller from Nebraska, and Congressman Hyde from Maryland — did not sign the report which the other members signed, and they stated as their reasons the following: "Since we have not signed the majority report submitted by the staff of the subcommittee, we desire to offer the Q. Since the schools were integrated? following observations: "l, We have carefully read the hearings, report, and the recomnendations made by the staff and the subcommittee. There is much in the report that is factual. The statistics speak for themselves, and it is not a record of which anyone can be proud. The report is provocative. It deals with the sordid, headline items almost entirely. We have a feeling that a more objective approach would uncover some good things in the educational and social life of the District schools. n2. The report seems to blame all of the educational defi ciencies in our school system entirely on the efforts toward \ integration. We cannot believe that everything that is wrong with the educational system can be blamed on integration. It is quite probable that many of the unsatisfactory conditions brought to light by the investigation may have been caused by conditions that existed prior to integration, and are due to factors other than integration. "3. In a close reading of the hearings, we must cans to the conclusion that the technical staff presented leading ques tions to a selected group of witnesses. While we do not doubt the honesty or sincerity of the witnesses who testified, the testimony does not appear to be well-balanced, or objective, since persons with views not in accord with those of the counsel were not given full and fair opportunity to testify. n4. While the report shows some preliminary planning had been made for desegregation, it does seem evident that no complete plan had been carefully brought to a conclusion. There did not seem to be a sufficient awareness of the many problems that would be faced by the sudden change. While the Supreme Court decision must be taken as final, we believe it did leave some opportunities for '& little play at the joints* in order to work out the many delicate, emotional, and prejudice-packed problems of integration. *’5* It appears to us that several of the legislative recommendations of the subcommittee report are not the proper subject of legislation, but rather should remain administrative decisions. In addition there are a number of the legislative recommendations which we do not believe were covered by the testimony. For example, recommendations numbered 1, 6 and 9 do not appear to be the proper subject for legislation] recommendations numbered 7 and 8 were not sufficiently covered by the testimony to come to any intelligent conclusion. "6, Ifce facts brought to light by this investigation seem to indicate that Negro leaders, and those actively interested In the advancement of the Negro people, have much work to do among the Negro people, and that all of the difficulties attended with integration are not caused by the seemingly uncompromising attitude of the white people. "7. 1516 recommendations of the subcommittee issued subsequent to the original report, 'that racially separate pui lie schodls be reestablished in the District of Columbia,' obviously cannot be done without a constitutional amendment." Biese views were signed by Congressmen Miller and Hyde, and for these reasons we renew the earlier objection to the testimony. THE COURT: I will adhere to my ruling and overrule the objection. I think the objection goes to the weigit, rather than admissibility. It is an official document, as we all know, and should have the consideration of the Court. So I will overrule the objection and let it be received in evidence. MR. SEEL: We have nothing further. THE COURT: You may step down. (Witness excused) JAMES GOODEN, ealledas a witness and having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. CASNAm: Q. Give your name to the court reporter. A. James Gooden. Q. Where do you live? A. 124 East Monument, Jackson, Mississippi. Q. How long have you lived in Jackson? A. Since 1925. Q. For whom do you now work? 149 Q. A. Q- A, Q. A. Q. A. Q. A, o. A. Q. A. A. Are you now working or are you retired? No, I am now retired. What have you done in the way of working while you have lived here in Jackson? I taught science and mathematics at Lanier High. School; of Lanier High School I was principal; I was principal and teacher of an elementary school: j I was director of colored schools until retirement. When did you retire? In *6l. Professor, I believe you are a member of the Negro race? That is correct, isn’t it? Yes. And did white pupils or Negro pupils attend the Lanier school at which you taught and were principal? They did not. Which race attended that school? The Negro race. Did any white pupils attend that school? No. Professor Gooden, while you were connected with the schools of Jackson Municipal Separate School----Strike that. What year did you first become associated with the schools of the Jackson Municipal Separate School District? 1925. 150 q . Did you remain connected with that school system all the way from 1925 until 1961? A. Continually, yes. ft. During that period of time, Professor Gooden, did you have any occasion to attend any conferences or meetings of superintendents or other educators? A. I attended the American Teachers Association, attended the school administrators * meetings, the National School Adminis trators . ft. Where would that meeting be held? A. Atlantic City. How often did you attend that meeting? Every year from 1951 until I retired. And that is the meeting of school administrators from all over the nation? Is that correct? That is correct. Did Dr. Kirby Walker, the superintendent of the Jackson schools, attend the same conference? He did. ft. Professor Gooden, what is your educational background? Give us your education and any degrees. A. Elementary school in Madison County, where I was bom. I did high school and college in Alcorn A & M College. I did my undergraduate— I did graduate work at Northwestern, where I received a Master of Science in Education, ft. Where is Northwestern located? A ........... - • . 151 A* In Illinois. Evanston, Illinois. Q. What degree did you receive from Northwestern in Illinois? A. Master of Science In Education. Q. Do you have any other educational training? A. No, none other than that. Q. Then you became associated with the schools in Jackson District and have been there from 1925 until 1961? Yes. Professor Gooden, as a matter of fact during this tenure of duty with the Jackson schools, do gtou know of any incidents in which members of both the Negro and white races have attended the same school? I don't know of any. Based on your experience in these schools and your training, would you give the Court your judgment as to whether the races attending separate schools is good or bad or better or worse than if they were integrated? Well, if I judge by the progress that seems to have been made, |t Beems that it was a serious handicap. I don't know, I can't say whether it was good or whether it was bed because I didn't have the comparative tests, but I know the Jackson public schools did make considerable progress. When I came into the Jackson public schools, we had about 16 teachers. There were no graduates, no college graduates. When I retired there were more than four hundred in the publio colored schools and all of them were college graduates, and from 152 some of the best schools in the country. And to my knowledge, they did a very excellent Job, Nov, the basis on which I am making that statement, I listened to these partial reports j when I came In they were making these reports. And what I have observed during these years, I don't know whether we have any basis for determining whether the Negro IQ is less than that of anybody else, but one thing that always disturbed, me, that we worked on and we are still working with, the great gap that I rediscovered in the Jackson public schools came about as a result of the readiness of the children who came to us. About prior to 15 years ago, the children who came to us in the first grade — I mean Negro children — they entered as pre-primer, and they stayed in the pre-primer for one year and then they moved up to the first grade. Then many of them were not able to move on out of the first grade. We made some surveys and we discovered that the reason for this was that the child's readiness was not determined — that is, when he entered school, he was not actually ready for school. Hie teacher had an unusually difficult problem trying to get those children ready. We still have those problems. Now, I don't know what that — That's not making any charge on anybody, but somehow he lacked the basic experiences that would be needed to begin school at the level at which the schools were pitched. And that has been the problem. 152 t o , vhat I was about to state, it seems to me that once he is in school, the gap that ve find between these two groups does not widen; it is beginning to narrow, but the gap that w© have begins, it seems when the child enters school; and so I am of the opinion that there is an opportunity for the Negro to move right along if he wants to. Q. In your opinion, based upon your training and experience, do you think that the attendance by the white and Negro pupils of this district at separate schools is better or worse than having them in the same school? Twenty years ago the attendance represented about 50 percent of the school population, and at that time we had a compulsory school law. Bxe holding power of those who entered school was less than sixty perooat, or not more than sixty percent, — that is, with the drop-outs. When X retired, the holding pQw6rhad increased very consid ecabljr — - that is, the holding power now for the Negro schools are almost equal to that of the white schools, if not equal. That is the reason why we have to build and continue to build, not because of a rapid increase of birth, but increase of the holding powers so I have seen the holding power increase in the schools. MR. BEIL: Could we enter :an objection? It is very interesting, but X don't know if it was responsive to the question. I believe counsel's question, was whether or not Mr. Gooden felt that the better education could be bobtained In the Hegro and white schools, and we didn’t get an answer to that. *EHE COURT: Well, that Is the question, and I didn't gather what — He can answer if he can what his opinion is, as to whether it is better to have them separated or whether it is better to have them integrated. I don't have any basis to determine whether it is better or not. Do you have an opinion on the matter? I have an opinion. What is your opinion? My opinion is that with the type of teachers that we have, with the training that the teachers have, and with the diffi culty and the problems of basic experiences that the teachers have, and due to the parent-teacher relationship that must be developed, that he has a better chance of making the greater progress at this time In the Jackson public schools. — I'm not talking about the country as a whole; I'm talking about what I know of the Jackson public schools — because there is a great deal of work that has to continually go on between the par&tit and the teacher. Do I understand you to say it is your opinion that it is better for the Negro to attend the schools with other Negroes and the whites to attend the schools with other whites? Yes, based on three or four basic needs. A student needs 155 to achieve; he needs to belong; he needs to be loved. And those things. I think he can get more of that vith the group, if the group is prepared to train him, than he would otherwise. Q,. By the ’'group," you mean the group of his own race? A. Yes. Q. Again I want to make certain that I understand your testimony. It is your opinion it is better in the Jackson schools, Jackson Municipal Separate School District, for the pupils of 0 this district to attend the schools attended by members of their own race? A, Unless I could change the attitude of the white person toward him. That is an important factor, to me. q . j\a i correct in sucsnarizing your testimony when I say it is your opinion it is better they attend the separate schools? A. Unless the white man’s attitude, feeling, toward me could ^ be changed. In other words, if he doesn’t like me, I think it would be a bad thing for me to send my six year old child to him. Q. Professor, based on your observations and experiences, is there any difference in the likes are! dislikes of the members of these two races, things that they like and don t like, are they charag^WUtics of the races? A. Ch, yes, as a natural result. n. What is your observation as to the differences in the 156 characteristics of these two races? Well, it is pretty difficult for me to name any specific things. Now, we have some people among the, in the race that likes anything anybody else likes, and there are some others who like some things that others don'1 like. We have our characteristics. I can’t point those out exactly. And you have no connection with the public school system in Jackson at this time at all? Hone whatever. And you are giving this testimony based on your experience with the school district? A. Over a period of 35 years. Q. Are you proud or not so happy with the school system of this district that tpu were associated with? A. Yes. I ’m a part of it. Q. Are you proud of it? A. I ’m proud of it. I think the Jackson public school system is one of the best in the country. Q. Does that include the schools attended by Negroes, as well as those attended by whites? A. Yes. I ’m talking about both systems, because I think of both as a system. We have two groups, but I don’t think of it as a separate system for each, for Negroes and for whites. Q. Is there any basic difference in the facilities or the courses offered in the schools attended by Negroes and whites? *v, ■ A. There Is no basic difference. Q. You know that of your own knowledge? A. I know that, because all the courses that arc napped are gone over with the joint groups. Q,. Professor Gooden, in selecting your teachers for the schools under your control, did you have a free hand in getting the best teachers available? We, the principals and director, was the final determining factor of the person who was elected by the board to teach in Jackson public schools. No teacher was edeleted by the board and handed down to the public schools. And you, together with the pri ncipals under you, had a free hand in Ejecting the teachers for which you were responsible? That's right. You recommended those to Mr. Walker, and he in turn to the Board of Trustees? Those that we turned down did not get elected. And those you recommended did get elected? Bid get elected. And that was true during your entire term? It was true during my entire tern. If a stranger was riding through Jackson in the summertime and no students were at the schools, could he tell which one was attended by colored students and which by whites? A. With the exception of one or two of the old schools, he could not. 158 Q. If he went throu^i the schools themselves, could he tell? A, Bo. I am saying that because I have been, through every school in Jackson. You have been through every school? Every school in Jackson. And I believe you said you were proud of the school system? Very proud of the Jackson public school system. Does that apply to the buildings themselves? It applies to the whole system. It applies to the curriculum and the education? Applies to the curriculum, applies to the personal relationships, it applies to the relationships between the two groups, the two races. Professor Gooden, is it your opinion that under the present system the members of the Begro race are receiving the very finest education that is available under the facilities and means of this district? A. I think so. Q. And the same thing would apply to the white people? A. I think so. Mr. Young there is a product of the Jackson public schools. MR. G A M ADA.: I think that is all. DIRECT EXAMINATION B3f MR. LEONARD: Q. I vas very interested in one statement you made. You said there were four things a child needs: to achieve, to belong, to be loved, and vhat was the fourth? A. To achieve, to belong, to be loved, and to be wanted. And I think that to be wanted is an important one. There are some things I could say that I wouldn’t want to say here, but that to be wanted is very Important. Q. Now, tell me one thing, Professor Gooden: this morning you heard Mrs. Evers? Were you here this morning? A . No, I wasn’t here this moral ng. Q,. Mrs. Evers was on the stand, and she testified that she was number two in her class in high school. And I ’m talking now about the first of your four things. In these cases there has been a great deal of talk about taking the superior Negro and — and, believe, me, we don’t question but there are many superior Negroes — and putting them over into a white school. And I would like to get your thought on this, if I can. Assuming that you have a Negro in an existing Negro school who would achieve hi^ily, would be the leader of his class, is he the sort of person you think should be moved over? A. In the first place, the best psychologist, among the best psychologists, don't agree to putting him even in a separate group in his own school. 160 Q, That’s part of your second statement, that he wants to belong, that he needs to belong, In terms of his instruction and his education. A. Yes, that is part of it. That’s the reason why you don’t want to take him away. The psychologists say that. You don’t take him away from this small group because you don't want to have a breach between him and the other person. Some psychologists are saying now that there are no superior people, that you are Just superior in some things. Q. in other words, his relationship is really one with his entire group. A* Yes. Q. And in this sense is there any relationship between the pupil and the teacher? Definitely. Or Just — Definitely. That's what I was trying to say. You see the school — we conceive the school as being a function or part of the home, the extending function of the home. When a child goes to school, the child continues to carry on in that function. He learns to talk at home, he learns to walk at home, he learns to eat at home, learns those before he is six. How, that's where this problem of disparity often arises. But that continues when he goes to school. When you're teaching him English, you're still teaching him to talk. So that relationship, that extending of the home l6l influence, is still prevailing. And the more you cen extend that then, I take it, the more closely the teacher can relate to the pupil, the more e a s ily the educational process will go? And the more nearly you are likely to expand his ability. And the more nearly you can take advantage of his ability? Yes. Were you here at the time Dr. Barker pointed out the achievement of the Negro schools of Jackson were even hi#ier than any anticipated figures? I’ve seen those figures — that is, over the years. You agree the schools have been actually doing that kind of Job, from your personal observation? I will tell you this: There are two or three — I don’t remember — I wish I could call their names — maybe from the University of Michigan — but two of the larger universities of the North pointed out recently that they were beginning to bid for the graduates of the Negro schools of the South, rather than the Negro schools of the North, because those students that come from the South, he says, made better students; and the reason for it is that very fact. I don’t know whether you call it over-compensating, but that does happen. Those who do have ability do shoot up; they do advance. . Professor Gooden, let m make & statement to you, and I ’d likeQ to see if you agree with me. One of the chief counsel for the MAC?, Jack Greenberg, wrote a book about schools, and in that book he stated that approximately 20 times as many high school graduates, Negro graduates, from the South achieved the minimum college entrance board levels than did the Negroes from the mixed schools of the North. Is that what you're saying? A. That is essentially what I'm saying. Q. In other words, you believe this is really a product of school systems, and a product of the type of school system? A. It is aproduct of the type of teaching that we are getting. You see, Negro teachers are pretty hard; they drive pore tty herd. Q. They have to, don't they? A. They have to start at the beginning and drive hard. And as a result, they get that kind of result. Q. But they get It and, as I recall what you said, at the same time they develop the holding power of the student and don't have the drop-out that they have elsewhere? A. Yes, sir. Q. Thank you very much. GROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. YOUNG: Q. Mr. Gooden, did I understand you correctly to say during the course of your testimony that the general courses offered by the Jackson public schools are the same for Negroes as they are for white? A. Yea, sir. Q. How, if I were to tell you there has been testimony here today that seme courses were offered to whites that are not offered to Negroes and some courses offered to Negroes and not offered to whites, would you agree? A* Yes. Q. Then your first statement isn't true? A. Yes, my first statement is true and that statement is true. Any course will be offered to any school, whether it's white or colored, that you have enough people who want that course. Q. How do you determine whether or not they want it? A. By the number of persons that make request for it. Q. Does this go for the ROTC? A. No. The school doesn't have anything to do with the ROTC. Q.. Was ROTC available to white students in Jackson? A. Yes, but that's the government makes that available} the school doesn't make it available. 16 5 Q. But it was not available to the Negroes? A. No. When we attempted to make it available, the government wasn't making any more available. Q. Now, when you say you offer the subjects that people want, am ^understand you to mean you ask the students what they want? A* No. Students each year at the beginning of the year the student fills out — that's at the close of the year, about now, they will fill out a list indicating courses he wants whether those courses are offered or not. In other words, Ail the courses are offered, lhose offered In white schools and those offered in Negro schools, they are there, and the student check's the courses he wants. Those lists, when they are completed, are taken home and they are signed by their parents. When they are finalised they are signed by their parents. And they are brought back to the school, and the course of study that will be offered during that year or period will be determined by those forms that were filled out. Q. Do I understand you correctly then to say that unless a large number of pupils make application for a certain course A, — No, not a large number. It’s ten or maybe seven or ten, something around ten. Enough for a class. Q. But if there were not at least ten students who wanted that course, although available at another school, then it would not be available to that student? A. Well, there are courses if they are not available In one school, could be transferred to another school. q . what about courses available only in white schools? A. Only in white schools? Q That*s right. A. I don’t know what those courses are. q . There has been some testimony here today that there are 165 A. — Well, as I say, I don’t know what they are, so I couldn’t tell what you would do about those. Q. I believe you said in talking about the schools that the schools themselves — and by that, I mean buildings — were all practically equal? Is that so? Is that your testimony? A. Equal? Yes. Substantially the same. Well, when you say "equal,,! it depends on what you mean when you say "equal." Q,. I said substantially the same. A. Some of them are superior, if you are going to talk about size. Mr. Gooden, are you aware of the fact that all of the Negro schools do not have gymnasiums? Have what? Do all the Negro schools have gymnasiums? All of the high schools. Are the, c o g n a t i o n g o l e m s and auditorium or separate gymnasiums? You mean gyaatoriums? Do you have separate gymnasiums in the Negro and white schools and separate auditoriums, or are they combined? Ihey are combi ® d in two of the high schools, and they are separate in one. What about the white high schools? 166 I don*t know. I thought you said you were thoroughly familiar---- You said all the gymnasiums. We don’t have gymnasiums in the elementary schools. What about the white high schools? Thej have them. We have the gymatorium. In the Hill School we have a gymatorium, and Lanier School, but the plans are now to build a gymnasium. The plans are already set now for the gyranasiiaa in both of those schools. You have only one high school now which has a separate gymnasium and separate auditorium? That's right. But what about the white schools. They all have them, I suppose. They «3J have separate gymnasiums and separate auditoriums, right? I suppose. You made the statement it was your experienceof working over a number of years in the Jackson public school system that the children who came to school in the first grade were not ready. Is that the term you used? Yes. They were not ready? Yes. Would I be correct in assuming this was due largely to the fact familiesthat they cams from/that had not themselves had too much 167 educational opportunity or too many educational opportunities? A. Either that, or lack of interest. Q. Would you agree that there is a disparity between the educational attainment of Negro parents and that of whites? A. Yes. Q. Would you say that that of the Negro parents was less than the whites? Yes, I would. Would you further agree thak this gap had been closed in recent years? This gap of the child entering school? No, I mean the parents themselves. Don’t you agree now that Negro parents on the whole — It '3 closing. It’s closing? It’s closing. The schools themselves have been in fact closing that gap. Now, Mr. Gooden, I believe you say you were a product of the schools of the State of Mississippi? A. Yes. Q,. Public school and college of Mississippi? A. Yes. Q. And that you also went to Northwestern University? A. Biat’s rl$it. 168 q . — where you obtained your master's degree. A, That's right. Q» Were you able to compete vith those persons at Northwestern? A. I finished in a Glass of 117, and I was, according to the director of the school, I was in the upper ten percent of my class. Q, Were there any other Negroes who were able to compete? A. There vara no other Negroes in that class. Q. But you were able to compete? A. I was in the upper ten percent. Q. Now, the reason I asked you that is — A. — I could show you that letter, if you want to see it. q . i*ii take your word for it. My reason for asking that question was, there has been some Indication in the testimony here today that Negroes don't have the mental capacity as the white people. In other words, that the Negro child does not have the native ability to comprehend and learn as to toe white people. New, either you are the exception to that rule, or the rule isn't true. Now, based on your own experiences in public schools, based on your own experiences vith Negro children over the years, is it your considered opinion ithat Negro students are inherently inferior to white children? A. NO. Q. That's all. A. let me elaborate on that. You can't measure ability unless you have a background of experience upon which to measure that ability. Now, if the person exposed to the test doesn’t have the background of experience, then we will not be able to determine on the paper whether he has it or not. Now, let me give you this: At Northwestern, a psychology - a Negro professor who was the top man in his class was taking a PHES in Psychology. He went down In Chicago, and part of Ills project was to make a test to find out the mental ability of children down In Chicago. He made up the test. Part of thatpap test was — That was the time when multiple choice was just coming out. — Part of that test was a multiple choice test, and he had on there, "Milk comes from a factory; it comes from a bottle; it comes from a cow; it comes from a so and so," and every child that was b o m In Chicago missed cow. Every one. Every one on that test, some 18 or 20, every one that was born in Chicago. This was an intelligence test now. Every one that went from Mississippi or somewhere else in the South answered that test question correctly. Now, if you are going to use that as a basis to determine who was the most intelligent, you certainly go for the South as more Intelligent; so you have got to have experience and background in order to determine this Inate ability that you have back there. So I don’t agree that one is inferior. According to the explanation you have just given, It is your 170 opinion that these standardized tests such as the ones introduced in evidence today are not necessarily an exact measurement of the child*s aptitude and ability? Is that correct? A. Ho, they cannot be. Q,. ®iank you. pteE COURT: Very well, you may step down. (Witness excused) THE COURT: Court will recess until nine o ’clock tomorrow morning. (Whereupon the court was recessed until the following morning) (Tuesday, May 19, 1964, at 9*00 A.M. the trial was resumed) MR. WATKINS: We*d like to call Mr. William S. Mllborne. WILLIAM S. MHB0RNE, called as a witness and having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION m MR. WATKINS: Q. Please state your name. A. William S. Mllborne. Q. Where do you live, Mr. Mllborne? A. Louisville, Kentucky. Q. Of what state are you a native, sir? 171 A. Indiana. What is your educational background? It's all in the State of Indiana. Graduated from a small town elementary school; did my high school work at the Academy, Valparaiso University; one year at Purdue, AB Degree from Oakland City College; Master of Arts Degree from Indiana University. Have you had any connection with educational associations? I have been connected with the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools and with the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools. Have you held any office in either of those? I've held the office of President of the Southern Association. Have you in the past held any position with the public schools of Louisville, Kentucky? The first part of your question I missed. Have you in the past held any positions with the public schools of Louisville, Kentucky? I have held positions with the public schools of Lodsville from 1928 to 1962, during which time, with the exception of six months, I was at one high school, three years as assistant principal and the rest of the time as the principal. As principal of what school? A. Louisville Male High School. M-a-l-e. Q. During that time, Mr. Milborae, did you also hold any position 172 vith the 01 ty government of Louisville, Kentucky? A. I was president of the Louisville Board of Aldermen for eight years, Q. What eight years were those? A. 1953 to 1961. Q. Please tell the Court, if you will, something about the size and nature of Male Hi#i School of which you were prin cipal for so long. A. In size, approximately 1400 students, varying somewhat from year to year. Primarily a college preparatory school, an old school dating from l8l6j a school with a lot of tradition, a lot of pride, a lot of prestige. Q. Was that school originally segregated? And by that, I mean was it attended exclusively by white students? A. It was segregated until 1954. I think the Fall of *54, as I recall it. Q. Was it desegregated at that time? A. It was. Q. Before it was desegregated, tell the Court, please, sir, whether many or few of the students went from that school to college. A. A very high percentage, for a public school, of the graduates went to college, mostly to eastern colleges. Q. After desegregation did that situation remain the same or did it change? A. It has changed radically. To what extent? In what way? Well, at the present, relatively few of the graduates go to college. V ' « y ? w ..j i * * ».1 J ‘ * v • '* f \ Prior to desegregation, did the students, graduates, of that school win many scholarships? A rather high number of scholarships. In years the total value would amount to more than a hundred thousand dollars annually. Were those merit scholarships? That included merit scholarships, some of the national merit college board examinations. What is a merit scholarship? It is a scholarship provided by a foundation. It is a competitive scholarship in which the students who are competing, or applying, take a set examination. It Is national- wide. It provides full tuition, full expenses, to the winners of the scholarships. to Were those ^scholarships/what you would consider the top colleges in the country? I believe they are so considered. Can you give me a few examples of those colleges to which the students usually got scholarships? Eastern schools. They can use them in many schools. The scholarships are granted to the student to be applied tothe school of his choice. Were there any southern schools involved, such as Washington & lee? A. Oh, yes. q . n o w , what has the situation been with respect to scholarships since desegregation of Male High School? A. Hie number of applicants for the merit scholarships has greatly dwindled. I do not recall in the past several years of one of the applicants winning a scholarship. Q. Can you recall of a scholarship having been won in the past five years? Well, I have to trust my memory. I do not. Were there any serious problems with reference to discipline in the sohool prior to desegregation? We had the usual run of secondary school problems of discipline, nothing serious. Has the situation with reference to discipline changed any since desegregation? It has changed markedly to the point that the problem of discipline takes up a great deal of time of the school administrators and of the teachers, a disproportionate part of the time that they must give to maintain proper decorum in the classrooms and building. That is time taken from actual teaching. Q. Do I understand you to say that if the teachers were not involved in problems of discipline, they could use that time in teaching the students? . Oh, yes, definitely.A 175 q . with reference to discipline, I'd like for you to give me some of the type of problems involved. Did they involve stealing? A. It is a difficult thing to describe, but it involved such »*><ngn as student conduct in the hallways. Before the integration or desegregation we had the usual hum or buss in the hallways. After that, after we got a considerable number of Hegroea, there was much loud, loose talking in the hallways, mirth fitting, particularly among girls, much conduct in the classroom itself that a teacher couldn't condone and carry r- - • ♦ ■ ■ . ■ - >.*'•. %» ■ v -a- ■ c * v 'f /• ■ & » . f' ‘jt on a class. T h a w was considerable petty stealing that we had not had before. Q» What about cheating? A. Cheating increased markedly. q , Tdd desegregation have any effect on your ability to keep a better, more experienced teachers, they became disheartened, disgusted. They transferred to other schools in the city system, or they sought employment in other school systems, or they Quit the profession. We found it more difficult to keep aad q . Mr. Milboroa, was there any change in the general personnel of the school pupils after desegregation? £*$r that I mean, did they incline to become predominantly white or predominantly good faculty in the school? A. Yes, it had a decided effect. Of course, some of the maintain a good faculty 176 Negro after desegregation took place? A. Veil, at the first ve had only a token number of Negro students — 55, as I recall it — who apparently had been handpicked, and we got along quite well, although they did not live up to what ve thought they should academically. Excuse me, Vhen you say "handpicked," do you mean they ware students of unusually high IQ's? They were considerably above the average. At the time,when you were telling me how they performed in Male High School, how did they perform? I said that they disappointed us in their academic achievement; based on the grades that they had had before they came to us and their IQ's, we expected more than we got. Were those 55 handpicked students followed by other Negro students? Yes, but not by handpicked. Little by little we got the mine-run of students from the junior high schools. What were the natures of those students? A. Well, they were lower,academic calibre. Q. What general effect did desegregation have on the quality of that school as a teaching instrumentality? A. Well, there was a general erosion of the scholarship from a high academic standard to a relatively low standard. Ifrere was a lowering of the disclphhe in the school. There was a distinct lowering of the tone and moral fiber of the school. 177 As the Negroes moved in, the better white students moved outj so the percentage of white decreased, and the percentage of colored students increased. And that process is still going on* Q. Mr. Milborne, was the desegregation of the Louisville school about which you have testified on a voluntary basis or as a result of a court order? A. It was on a voluntary basis, but it followed the Topeka court Q. Have you had occasion to study and observe the effects of deseg regation in the public schools of other cities other than Louisville, Kentucky? I have seen it in a number of schools. I have seen it in Washington, Philadelphia, Gary, Indiana, Chicago, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Kansas City. Please tell the Court whether or not the results of desegre gation in those public schools in those cities was substantially as you have described it in Louisville, Kentucky* It has been my observation that they follow the sane general pattern of gradual changing from white schools to integrated schools, and then more or less back toward de facto segregation again. Q* Mr. Milborne, after your years of experience with this problem of desegregation, have you reached any conclusion as to why we have this problem with the Negroes in a mixed school? A. Well, from my observation and the study I have done, I am 178 convinced that the problem is caused by inate racial differences. Q. Thank you. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LEONARD: Q. Mr. Milborne, you have given us a description essentially of what has happened to the scholarship standards of the white student. In your observation of the schools in the City of Louisville, would you say that with respect to the Negro students who moved over into Male High School that they were becoming better educated than they had previously? MR. BELL: Could we ask that this be carried on in something of the manner of a professional court hearing and the lawyers not lead’ this witness, who obviously knows his lines very well? They have been leading right along, and counsel for interveners now is probably giving us a probably classic example of a leading question. THE COURT: Yes, that is leadirg. THE WITNESS: Your Honor, the gentleman i s ---- THE COURT: --- Rephrase the question. MR. LEONARD: I will withdraw that question and reframe it. Q. Do you have any familiarity with the Negro students who came over to Male High School? Did you observe their academic progress? A, Yes Q. Do you have any basis at all for determining whether or not that was greater or lesser progress than they had previously made? A. I do not* « Q. In your opinion and under your observations, did they get a better education by transferring to Male High School? A. I do not see how they were Improving educationally because, by and large, they had cone from rather excellent schools. Q. Are you saying that Negro schools of Louisville were also excellent before 19f&? A. Yes, sir. My observation Is that they were considerably above the average. Q. Would you say they were above the average, or would you say that that average was above the figure, type of performance which you have described in Male High School after desegregation? A. I'm not sure I get your question. Q. You stated, I believe, that the Negro higi schools of Louisville before 195^ were excellent academically? Is that correct? A. I stated that. Q. Would you say that they were as high or higher than the academic standard of Male High School after desegregation? A. I don't have sufficient evidence to give you a valid answer to that question* CJ. Do you have an opinion? A. It is my opinion that the educational opportunities of the 179 180 Negroes who came to Male High School are not improved by their coming to a desegregated school. Q. Thank you. THE COURT: Any cross examination? MR. BEIL: No, we arenot going to offer any cross examination of this witness; and as to the previous witnesses, we object to all of the testimony introduced and move to strike on the basis it is totally irrelevant to the only issues which the courts have timeand time again indicated are before this Court in this type of action, and that is whether or not the schools of Jackson, Mississippi, are segregated. The situation in Louisville, therefore, is irrelevant. Moreover, the testimony of this witness could be expected, and from what I understand from leaders in Louisville, his position is well known •— MR. WATKINS: — Your Honor, we object to his testifying into the record in this manner, stating what he k n o w about this witness. MR. HELL: I think I can — MR. WATKINS: — Well, I’m going to object to your testi fying what you have been told about this witness in Louisville, Kentucky. That is highly improper. MR. BELL: I ’d prefer you wait until I finish my objection. THE CODRT: Very well, Gentlemen. Mr. Jordan, will you read the last objection? (The objection stated by Mr. Bell was read by the court reporter) l8l THE COURT: I will exclude it from consideration as having any valuation, any probative force, one way or the other, but I will let him state it for the record, and I overrule the objection. MR. BELL: I was trying to make two points: one, that the situation in Louisville on the issues in this case is totally Irrelevant for any purposej second, that the Louisville desegbegation effort over the past few years has been more or leas of a model, in which those who are proponents of desegregation - and there are many - feel that Louisville Is an excellent example, while other people who feel Louisville is one more example of the Ineffectiveness of desegregation as improving the overall educational situation -— I was pointing out that this witness is generally known as one of those who opposed itj and therefore, for that additional reason, the testimony Is irrelevant to the issues before this Court. THE COURT: I will overrule the objection of counsel for plaintiff and overrule the motion at this time to exclude this testimony, and I will disregard his remarks as to what the position of this man was, whether opposed or favorable or what-not j but if he has any rebuttal testimony he can put on , of course, he can put that on at that time. But his statement as to what is well known, I cannot regard as being testimony. You may step down. (Witness excused) 182 MR. GANNADA: If the Court please, the Intervenors have a witness that must leave shortly after lunch, and it is requested that they put their witness on out of order. We have no objection if it meets with the approval of the Court. THE COURT* Very well. MR. LEONARD: At this time I call Dr. R. Travis Osborne. MR. BELL: Before the examination starts, let me make an objection for the plaintiffs to the testimony of this witness, insofar as it is aimed at supporting the contentions of the Intervenors. We feel these contentions have been raised before, have been paassd on by the courts, and have been not approved. If you will pass on that objection, I would like to make another one. THE COURT: You wanted to say something further? MR. BELL: Yes, Your Honor. Moreover, this particular witness has testified in some of the other efforts to show that Negroes are inferior and that segregated schools are justifiable under the constitution; and in an effort to save the time of this Court, plaintiffs would move that the testimony that he has provided earlier be admitted in this case and spare us all the long hours of repetition which otherwise would be inevitable, THE COURT: Well, I will overrule the objection and let the -witness testify because they are entitled to make their record. It may be at a later date I would exclude it, but he is entitled to get it into the record, and In order to keep my rulings as I go I will overrule the objection. DR. R. T. OSBORNE, called as a witness by the Interveners and having been duly sworn, testified as fellows: DIRECT EXAMINATION B3T MR. LEONARD: Q. Please state your name. A. R. T. Osborne. Q. What is your position? A. Pofessor of Psychology. Q. Where? A* University of Georgia. Q. Do you hold any other position with that university? A. Director of Student Guidance Center. Q. For how long have you been there? A. I've been there since 193*7• Q. What are your academic qualifications, Doctor? A, Undergraduate work at University of Florida; graduate work through the PHD at the University of Georgia. Q. And what was your doctorate taken in? A. Educational psychology. Q. Have you worked in that field since that time? A. With the exception of four years during World War Two. m Q. I yonder If you would raise your voice a little? Are you a member of any professional socle ties? A* American Psychological Association; Southeastern Psycho logical Association; and Georgia Psychological Association. Q. Are you a licensed psychologist? A, For the State of Georgia, yes Q. Havd you published any professional works In your field? A. Yes, I have, several. Q. Would you state the nature of those publications, generally, giving us any illustrations you wish? A. In general they have to do with evaluation of achievement, mental ability, graduate students, EMbllc school child ren. Anything on testing? Mostly have to do with mental measurement or psychometrics. What does the word "psychometricsi! mean* Mental measurement. And that is of an individual or a student or people generally? A. It may be of an individual or a group. Q, What forms of measurement are there which can be taken? What forms of mental measurement can be made with any reasonable reliability? A. The most reliable are the Individual intelligence teste. Q. Far what is that a predictor? A. It predicts best scholastic achievement or school type achievement and learning. 185 Q. Does it have a hi#i or a low correlation with subsequent scholastic achievement? A. It is probably Hie best index of later scholastic achievement as measured by public school grades. Q. is there any way also of measuring the achievement, as such? A. Yes. The usual standardized test of the three R*s, reading, arithmetic, language skills. Can these achievements be broken down in the testing process at all? In other words, can you take various components of a person’s learning and test them separately? A person’s achievement, yes. You mean reading? Yes. A. Arithmetic and language skills? Yes. Q. And even within those, is it possible to break them down any further? A. Yea. You lose reliability when you break them down i to shorter ---- Q., To what extent can you measure the subsequent achievement against a person’s original aptitudes as shown by an intelligence test? A. I don’t understand. Q. To what extent. You stated there was a correlation between scholastic achievement and Hie figures gotten on intelligence tests. How do you determine that? A. It is statistical process of relating the predictor or the ability scores to a later crlterium achievement score. 186 Could be school grades or could be test scores. MR. IEONAJRD: At tills time I would like to hand to the Court and have marked as intervener’s exhibit a statement of the qualifications of Dr. Osborne and of his professional publications in the field of testing; and I offer Dr. Osborne as an expert in the field in which he has ^nst mentioned his qualifications. THE COURT: Let it be marked and received in evidence. (Same received in evidence and marked as Intervener’s Exhibit No. 1) Q. Have you ever taught in any public schools? A. Yes. Q,. Have you had any educational experience with classes beyond the public school level? Yes. What is the total length of your teaching experience at this point? Prom ’36 until the present, except for four years I was in the Navy. If I said 24 years, would that be approximately correct? A. That would be, approximately. Q. In the course of your work at the University of Georgia, have you been called upon to make any tests on a broad scale of city system public schools? A. I have been invited as a consultant to participate in the kind of activity you mentioned. Q. What city or cities? 187 A. Savannah, Georgia, is one. Q. Will you tell me what your function was with respect to the testing of the children in Savannah, Georgia? A. Mainly consultant to the superintendent,, principals, and the advisory committee on the evaluations, to help them plan and implement a longitudinal testing program for the children in the county. Q.. what is a longitudinal testing program? A. Well, an on-going program 'which would be repeated every year, rather than just a single cross-sectional program given one time and then used and not repeated the following year. q . would it follow the same children throu^i the various years? A. It may or may not. For example, some schools would test alternate grades every year. Eventually they would, test the same children, but it may or may not. Q. What test did you recommend? A. I didn’t recommend, The school system selected and agreed upon the testing program for this county. q . You participated in the discussion? A. That’s right, and advised. Q. What test was selected? A. The California test battery, achievement and mental ability. q . Would you describe that to us for a moirent? A. It’s a standard paper and pencil group test of achievement in the basic areas — reading, language skills, arithmetic, and a test of mental ability. 188 Q. When you say it is a general or standard test, do you mean it is used on any scale broader than Savannah or the State of Georgia? A. It is a i national test, standardized on a national norm. Q. When you say "national," "standardized,' what do you mean by that? A. The test has been given to a large number of people throughout the country, and from the results normative data have been established. Q,. Are the normative data based on all persons who have taken the test or based upon a particular local test, as in Savannah? A. No. Ohe normative data are representative of the nation as a -Whole, if that is claimed by the test publisher. Q. Did you participate at all in the training of the teachers who make the tests, or make the test yourself? Did you take any part in your capacity as advisor? A. I participated in the training of teachers who administrered the tests, yes, sir. Q. Did the teachers administer the tests? A. Yes. Q,. Over what period of time? A. Well, the program was begun in April of *54. Q. Is it continuing today? A. Yes. Q. Have the results of those tests been made available to you? A. Ihey were, yes. Q. Have you considered or studied or written or done anything with those results? A. Yes• Q. What have you done? A. A sursmary of the findings was published, without identifying the school system. Q. I show you at this time, Doctor Osborne ---- Allow me to have this marked for identification. (Same was marked as Intervener's Exhibit No. 2 for Identification) Q. I show you Intervener's Exhibit 2 for Identification, which is dated, purports to be a monograph entitled "Racial Difference in School Achievement," by R. T. Osborne, and ask you if this is the study to which you have Just referred? &. Yes, that is. Q. And this study is your work? A. Yes. Q. And it is based upon test results which have been made available to you? A. Yes. MR . LEONARD: I offer the study into evidence at this time. USE CCXJRT: Let it be received in evidence. (Intervenor's Exhibit No. 2 for Identification received in evidence) MR. LEONARD: At this time I would like to put on toe stand, without introducing in evidence, g ertain pages of xyu this report, which we have photographically enlarged. If you would step down from the stand, please. (Witness steps down) Can you identify the chart which is presently on the easel? Uhis is a chart from the monograph previously exhibited. Will you tell us what it states or shows? This is Figure 1, showing the average grade placements earned on California Reading Test by white and Negro pupils — Raise your voice. *rhta is Figure 1 from the Monograph, shawl ng the average grade placement earned on the California Reading Test by white and Negro pupils tested in grades 6, 8, 10 and 12. Q. Would you tell us what is meant by 'Vocabulary"? And "Comprehension? Vocabulary is a sub-test that merely reflects a child*s knowledge of words. Comprehension is his ability to under stand written material, his understanding of written material. Would you tell us what the distances or shapes of the lines show that you have drawn on the chart? In the first place, identify the lines. What are the four lines you have in each case? A. Well, the solid line is white boys, the dotted — heavy dotted line is white girlsj Negro boys, (indicating) and Negro girls.) Q. Now, will you tell us what the chart shows? Summarise for us what each of the three boxes shows? A. It shows the children tested originally,in grade 6 . The white children were achieving about at normal grade level, and the colored children in grads were on Vocabulary somewhat above the 4th grade level. This is easier to understand from one of the tables, but graphically it is shown here. A difference of about a year and a half in reading vocabulary achievement. Q. Now, does the distance between the upper and the lower sets of lines indicate an achievement difference between the white and Negro children? A • Yes. Q. And does that difference — is that difference constant throughout the years in which tests were made? A. It is obvious from the graphs that there appears to be a widening of that difference. Q. Does that indicate a difference in rate of progress or rate of learning with respect to vocabulary? a . I would interpret it that way, yes. Q. Your top one is the 12th grade? A. Yes. Q, Your difference In the 12th grade Is greater than your difference in the 6th grade? A. Yes. Q. Is the same true of Reading Comprehension? A. Yes, The hung? in the curve is a little different place, but the overall picture is the same. Q. Now, the upper two lines are white boys and girls, and the lower two lines are Negro boys and girls? A. Yes. 192 Q. And you have the sane divergent pattern in Beading Compre hension as you had in Vocabulary? A* Yes. Q. And do you have the same total pattern? A. Well, the total is the composite of these two. Q. Dr. Osborne, if you would slip that to the bank, and take Figure 2, which follows it. Would you explain Figure 2 for us? The same legend is used at the bottom of the page. This is a test of arithmetic, arithmetical reasoning and fundamentals. Q. What goes into Reasoning? A. Problem-solving. Q,. And Fundamentals is what? A. Simple number combinations, adding and subtracting. Q. In this particular chart, are the Reasoning and the Fundamentals the same? In other words, is the pattern formed by the progress of the white and Negro children the same for Reasoning aa it is for Fundamentals? A. No, there is a slight difference. I don't know how to account for that, but the pattern — This hump in the curve could be an artifact of poor te3t articulation or something, but anyway the curves are not identical. Q.. As the test results go, are your differences in Reasoning greater, less than, or equal to your differences in Fundamentals? A. By inspection I would say the difference in Fundamentals is 193 greater. Q. And is your rate of divergence during the school years the same or different? i A. It would appear to be different. Q. And they diverge more broadly on Fundamentals than they do A. Yes. Q,. Now, go to Figure 3. What does this chart show? A. This is an average intelligence grade placements earned on California Mental Maturity Test by white and Negro pupils tested in grades, 6, 8, 10 and 12. Now, is this the intelligence te3t you told us about previously for predicting scholastic achievement? That's right. Would you describe the results which the chart shows? The test is broken down into two parts: a Langiagc section and Non-Language beet ion. Can you explain those? The language section usually involves problems of vocabulary, questions involving vocabulary, and mental reasoning involving words. The non-language section, as it indicates, does not involve the reading skills. How do you test if it doesn't involve reading skills? Picture problems, space problems, perceptual organization, and that kind of thing. Q, Does this have any relation to the type of thing w© call cultural and non-cultural? A. If you could tag It, this would be more cultural than this (indicating). This does involve language, vocabulary, and this is the non-cultural, but still the child has to be able to use a pencil, for example. Q,. Are the patterns in Language and Non-language the same, as your chart shows them? the difference A. No. The Language goes — -/seems to be greater here, and the boys and girls seem to 3how greater differences on the language section. In general, the boys do better on the Non-Language section.than the girlsi the girls generally do better on the language skills. Q. Now,1 as between the white students and the Negro students, do you have the same pattern? A. That*s right. Q. And that is shown in your total on the chart? A. Yes, but not to a great extent. I mean, these are more apparent than real, I would say. Q. Now, would you tell me, you stated that tests of mental maturity could be used to predict scholastic achievement. Would you 3ay the tests which you show on Figure 5 would be a reasonably accurate predictor of the results shown on charts 1 and 2? A. Yes. The correlation, I*d say, between this test and the others. 195 Q. Do they demonstrate to any extent a pattern? A. Yes, they do, but you -would naturally expect,this test of mental maturity, you’d expect a pattern, to find the same pattern here as you would with your achievement. Q. Does the difference in mental maturity increase with age? A. According to the figures here shown, there is an increase, yes. I would say yes. Q. Have you previously testified that the achievements diverge more with age? A. That is correct. Q. Is that a correlation between the two? A. No, that wouldn’t be a correlation, but that would Indicate there is a similarity between the two, but not necessarily a correlation. Q. What are your overall conclusions in this study at this time? A. They are indicated in the monograph. Q. Well, without having you read them, if you will take the stand again.... Number onei How many children approximately are involved in this test? A. It varied from — I think at the beginning there were over three thousand. I don’t remember the figures. I would have to look at the numbers. Q. You have a chart? A. Yes. 196 Q. Let me repeat the question. How large a student body was used in making these tests? A. In ’54 there were 1558 white children in the 6th grade, 952 Negro children in the 6th grade; 1206 white in the 8th, and 697 Negro in the 8th; and 10th grade, 919 white children, and 460 Negro. Q. Can you summarize for me in round figures? A. About 4,040. Q. About 4,000 total. Over how long a period were these tests made? Now, that didn't involve — I mean, this study didn't involve all of those children, because some of them dropped out and transferred and moved into other schools, and those things. These children given on the chart, the children who were actually examined in all four years, the number is considerably smaller, because — Because of drop-outs? Because of transfers, and some children were retained and weren't tested in the same grade, and that type of thing. So that your total number here according to the chart is about 750 or 800? That's correct, children who were tested at the four successive years starting at the 6th and going to the 12th, Over what spread of years — just four years on this? Six years. '54 to '60. Six years. And these tests were given over that spread? 197 A. That's right* Q. Mr. Osborns, I call your attention to Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 in this action, Answers to Interrogatories of the Jackson School Board, containing a series of tables in answer to Interrogatory 5. If you will look at those, please, and I will ask you whether you have seen those tables before? Yes, I have seen it. Have you considered the result shown in those tables in comparison with the work you have done in Savannah? A. Not statistically, but I have reviewed them. Q. Would you say that they show the same or substantially the same pattern, or different patterns? A. Although the tests were given at different times by different examiners, in general the trend is the same; the same conditions obtained heree Q. Is this true both as to mental maturity and as to the achievement? Or just one? A. It would be both; although the tests are not exactly comparable. Different tests, but the ploture is the same. Q. Dr. Osborne, are you familiar with the results which were reported by the Mobile school system and put in evidence in the Davis case? A. Vaguely familiar; not as familiar as I am with this. Q. Have you considered those to the same extent as the Jackson - 198 — as the Jackson, yes. Do they show the same pattern? Very little difference. Again the functions of the type of tests, rather than any — . Are the differences within normal spread, or do they show different types of — . In other words, — . The trends are the same. Do differences exist in all of them? Yes. of Are these differences approximately/the same score? The magnitude of the differences is the same, I would say. Roughly the same. Perhaps not the same for every grade, but in general the same. Are you familiar with the test results which were reported for the City of Charleston in the State of South Carolina and put in evidence in the Brown case? Yes. Again, vaguely. Q. Chi the 3ame basis? A. That*s right. Q, Have you considered those in terras of these differences? A. Yes. Q. And are they the same or different? A. Hie Charleston data appeared to be greater. I mean, the differences appear to be greater than those in the other three studies mentioned. Q. Are you familiar with the report that was made on the Atlanta schools, Dr. Osborne, by the educational testing service? Yes. I am familiar vlth the charts, the general appearance of the results. Would you say that those have the same degree of difference or less or more or any? If I remember correctly, the Atlanta data were made to compare schools, rather than by achievement areas for children. I have to admit — If I could familiarize myself or see the data, I might be able, let me read you the following, Dr. Osborne, and ask for your opinioni "Average scores of Negro pupils fall progressively further behind the national average and the averages for white Atlanta pupils as they advance from primary grade through high school." Is that a statement that is constant with what you have previously testified? Yes. Next paragraph: "In reading, the difference between average scores is about one grade at grade nearly two grades at grades 4 and 5; nearly three grades at grades 6 to 8j and over four grades in English at grade 12." Is that constant with what you have previously testified? Yes, it follows 200 Q. I continue: "In arithmetic, the differ eice between average scores Is less than one grade at grade j5j about two grades at grades 6 to 8j and over four grades in mathematics at grade 12. Negro pupils tend to do better in arithmetic than reading at all grade levels. They do very poorly in English at grade 12." Is that similar to or different from the results to which you have testified this morning? Similar to it. May I ask, Is that from the Atlanta report? That is from the Atlanta report. I will be glad to mark this in identification if the plaintiffs want. Q,. Who is the author of that report? A. Or. Warren Finley supervised it. It was prepared by the Educational Testing Service, Princeton. Q. Do you know of any other study which has been made of the achievement and mental maturity of Negro children in Southern schools? A. Recently Kennedy published a report out of Florida State. Q. Will you please Identify him for us? A. I am trying to recall his given name. MR. LEONARD: Let me have this marked for identification. (Same marked as Intervenor’s Exhibit No. 3 for Identification) Q. I show you Intervenor*s Exhibit 3 for Identification, which purports to be a monograph of the Society for Research in Child Development, "A Normative Sample of Intelligence and Achievement of Negro Elementary School Children in the Southeastern United States, * by Wallace A. Kennedy, Vernon Van De Riet, and James C. White, Jr. I ask you vhether that is the study to which you have Just made reference? A. yes, that is right. MR. LEONARD: At this time I would like to have the witness identify and offer in evidence Just certain pages frcm the report. I offer in evidence the title page, the acknowledgment that the research was supported through the Cooperative Research Program of the Office of Education, U. s. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, and pages 32, 84, 86, and 110 of Intervenor's Exhibit 3 for Identificat ion. T HE COURT: Let them be received in evidence. (Said pages of Intervenor*s Exhibit No. 3 for Identification were received in evidence) Q,. Would you please refer to Table 45 at page 82 of that report, and if you would, step down from the stand, and we have a photographic enlargement on the easel. Would you please state to us what the various columns mean? A. Thin is a table from Kennedy*a revision, or normative data for the new Stanford-Binet test. He administered this test to a large number of Negro children in the Southeast, with the results shown here. 202 In the column representing Age, the number of children tested here. This is the age in months of the child (indicating), and is the mental age in months as determined by the tests, and this is the difference in months here (indicating). Q. Ifhe difference between what? A. Between the expected here (indicating) and the achieved here. Q. When you say the "expected,” you mean the chronological age? A. That's right, of an average child at the age the child was tested. Q, Do I understand — , Veil, is mental age and chronological age the same thing? A. No. Chronological age for test purposes is merely the age at which the child took the test. Q, what is the normal mental age for any given chronological age? A. Normal mental a g e ---- — For any — A. — Would be the same. Q. It would be the same. Any difference in mental age and chronological age would be what? A, If the mental age is greater than the chronological age, it would indicate the intelligence quotient above 100. If it's below, it would indicate to that extent below. Q. Can it be measured in terms of months or years as a difference? In other words, can mental age be established? A. Sure, mental age. Q.. Can the difference between the two be taken? 203 Tfrfl-t *3 correct. That is vhat Kennedy has done here. And does your column 011X61*0006 in months express that figure which you have just explained? By the way, this is not my table. I mean, it's fran the monographs it is Mr. Kennedy's. Yes. As you understand the column entitled "difference in months. That*8 correct. Difference in mental age and chronological age? That's right. Is it ahead or behind, in terras of mental age? In each case, with one exception here, the chronological age is greater than the mental age. This, I think, is at the ■ ’V . five-year level an artifact — Veil, it could be a sampling accident or something else. How many people were in the sample at five years? Only 19 children at that age. Is that a reliable sample for statistical purposes? HOt when — At six years, we have 22?. I think that is better. Some selective factor was at work there we don't know about. How, who were the subjects of this test, as the study indicates? The Negro children in the southeast. About how many? Do you know? Fifteen hundred or so. That's about right. Are there differences between mental age and chronological 204 age constant? A. No* It is cumulative. Q. What is— A. Well, at year level six, the difference is five months. At year level ten, It Is seventeen. And I think the same argument that I have made here for the small difference at year five, level, the small number, would also hold for this year level thirteen, where the difference is out of line. Q. Now, at the age of six where you say there is a five month difference, this would mean a mental age of five years and — -? A. Seven months. Q. At the age of seven, vbat would the mental age be? A. 6.3* And at the age of eight? 7., rounding off. What? I say at the age of eight, rounding this off, it would be 7. h <iher words, that is almost one year behind at the age of eight? 11.6 months? Yes. Q. And in terms of years, how far behind at nine? A. One year,two months. Q,. .And at ten? A. One, five. And one, six. A year and a half. Q. And at eleven? 205 A. Eleven? That’s vhat I said. — At eleven, a year and a half at age eleven. Q. And eleven? A. Beat’s what I said. A year and a half. That's 18. — Q. The difference In raofaths Is — A. Oh, no. Ho, that’s 18. Excuse me. I didn’t have my glasses on. Eleven la 22 months. Q. Close to two years? A. That’s rl^ht. That’s correct. And twelve. What la the difference at the age of twelve? 35 months, or almost three years. Is that chart consistent with the results you have reported this morning on the various southern cities we have been discussing? The differences are not very great. I would say yes. Does it follow the same general pattern? Yes. Q. Does this chart, taken as a whole, Indicate Negro students in the southeastern United States lag behind the norm by an increasing degree over the span of school years? A. Prom Table 45, that would appear to be so. Q. Does it appear like the figures you have dealt with in Savannah and the ones you have seen on Jackson, Mobile, and the other cities? A, Restate the question 206 Q. Q. The question waa, does this table show an increasing lag in the Negro student in the southeastern United States as he progresses upward through the school years? A. Lag in mental age, as measured by this test. Now, lag in achievement, I thinkthe others we were talking about in achievement. Q.. Well, let's stay here with mental maturity. What does mental maturity measure? A. Ability to do intellectual work. Q. In other words, in terms then of ability to do work, Dr. Osborne, is there an increasing lag over the period of school years? A. From this table, there is. Q. Nov, is that situation the same for the study you made in Savannah? A. Q. A. Q. Similar, yes. And the figures which have been put in evidence here for Jackson? Yes, similar to that. And Mobile and Charleston? A. 'The figures are similar, that is correct. Q. If you will turn to the next chart there for a moment. Would you explain that graph, please? A. Ihis is a graph of Figure 2 from the Kennedy monograph, showing the IQ distribution of Negroes and the normative sample, This curve represents the obtained data from the Kennedy study, and this curve represents the normative sample 207 superimposed on the same base line with the - same scores represented. Q. When you say the data from the Kennedy study, your first line represents the scores of the Negro children? A. Hiat is correct. Q,. Distributed against a normal curve? A . Yes. Q. Or what type of curve? A. Yes, this is the normal curve drawn on the same base line of the Kennedy. Q,. What do they call the area covered by both curves? Is there any overlap between the two? A. Boat is not the definition, correct definition. I mean, this area here at which the curves overlap is not the usual or conventional use of the term ’’overlap.” Q. Does it have a term, Then measured against the normal? A. It Blips my mind right now if it does. Q. What does this chart show in terms of the preceding chart? A. The same. Q,. The Negro students are up to, ahead of, or behind the normal? A. Behind the normal group. I think this is a graphic represen tation of the other data we Just saw. Q. Are the Negro figures given there in the normal distribution form? In other words, is the curve which they form a normal distribution type curve? A. It is the usual bell type curve, but it is peaked more than than the normal curve here. Q. Why is that? A. I can only guess. I don’t know anything about — Q,. Do you have an opinion? A. Yes. I would have an opinion that the lower range of the tests here would seem to — . Well, the test doesn’t effectively measure below the IQ’s 40, 50, and so forth. I would say that chance plays a great deal in giving scores In this neighborhood from 40 to 60. Q. And that has tended to pack it up with — A. I would say that, yes, but I don’t know that. I would hazard that as a guess. Q. Turn to the next chart. THE OODHT: At this point v© will take a ten minute recess. (Court was recessed for ten minutes) After Recess (MR. LEONARD:) Q. Dr. Osborn, would you pleaae turn your attention to Table 71 of the Kennedy study, a likeness of which is presently on the easel, and tell me what those figures show? A. table shows the correlation between the Stsnford-Binet mental age and achievement as measured by the California Achievement Test, correlation between Reading on the Calif ornia, and Mental Age measured by the Bluet is .68, arithmeticj .64, language; .70 — and Battery, I assume, means the 209 the conbinatlon of these grades — would be .69. Q. What do those figures mean? A. That the relationship between Intelligence is measured by the — mental age as measured by the Binet, and achievement as measured by the California Achievement Test, is high average. I mean, you can predict the one from the other fairly accurately. q . Are all the correlation figures substantially equal, or do they show any real variation? A. Ho, there is not much difference. I doubt if the difference is significant. It is more apparent than real. Q. Thank you. Please turn to the next chart. You have now on the easel what table number? A. 68. Q A, Table 68 of the Kennedy study. Would you please tell us what that table shows? It Is a capitulation of the California Achievement Test grade placement at each grade level by all of the sub-tests, giving the number of children in the 1st, 2nd, and through the 6th grades, both male and female. Q* Does it show any differences between the grades where the Ifegro children tested and the norm? A. The 1st grade - Q. — Well, in general. A. Well, in general, I would say the same Information that we have reported for other studies, I think we could find here. Maybe with same slight differences, but the trend 210 and the magnitude of the differences would be the same. Substantially the same as in the other cities? As the others. I would like to show you at this time a graph of Table 45 from Dr. Kennedy*s monograph, and ask whether the curve which is shown there approximates the curves which you previously testified to in connection with Savannah? Yes. The information here is similar. Maybe in this area back here, slightly different, but the green is the norm and the red is the Negro group, from the Kennedy study. On Savannah and the other studies, where would the white line have been if Dr. Kennedy had tested it and it remained in this pattern? In other words, was your white line in Savannah at or above the norm? Approximately the norm. In other words, your measurement here then of your Negro against the norm Is a reasonable comparison of Negro against white in this area? Yes, although he doesn’t do that here. But I think the norm— . I would like you to look at this time at the graph of the reading grade placement from Table 68 which you have just been looking at, and again I ask you if this is approximately, the same trend which was shown in the graph of reading place ment in Savannah? Similar, but I think the differences here are somewhat slight, less than Savannah, but the trend is the same. look at the one behind that and tell us what that shows. This is language grade placement. It shows about the same thing except as we found in the other studies, the girls on the language achievement approximate the norm more nearly than the boys, but the average of those would be about the same. There is still a divergence on the whole between the Negro tests and the norm? That is right. Which increases over the grades. From 2 to 6, yes, from the Kennedy data. Now, take the next one. Arithmetic grade placement from the Kennedy data. Is that approximately or substantially similar to the one you tested in Savannah? Again yes. Now, would you contrast the difference in this chart with the difference which was in the immediately preceding chart on language? I notice that the differences appear to be different on the chart. Could you explain it? The differences appear to be somewhat less for arithmetic than for language achievement. Is this the same as you have found in Savannah and elsewhere? Yes, except for arithmetic fundamentals, I think we had an increase, a greater difference, for the arithmetic fundamentals. This is not broken down by fundamentals and reasoning. I think the difference was slightly greater. But there again it’s just — Q. Does it tend to fall into a pattern by subject matter? Is there consistency to these figures in that respect? A. The overall trend is the sane, I think. Q, Taking them by subjects, Is there to any extent a pattern which is formed by these different city results? A. Yes. Q. Thank you. If you will take the stand again... (Witness does same) Q. In connection with your Savannah study, Dr. Osborne, did you make any attempt to match white and Negro students of the same mental maturity or IQ? A. Yes. A proportion of the study was that. Q. What was the point of this study? What were you trying to achieve? A, The purpose was to compare achievoment after having matched - the children in terms of age arid mental ability. Q. Will you tell me more about how you matched them? A. It was an experimental matching; from the largo group we were able to find children who were of the same age and equal mental ability in both groups. Ihrough the sorting of the cards we were able to match them in that respect. Q. Did you match them in pairs? A. Yes. Q. How many pairs did you have? 213 A. 1*11 have to look at the report. Q. Well, in a rough amount, subject to checking the report — A. Yes. Q. A. A. Q. — approximately how many? Over a hundred pairs of these boys and girls. And in each pair, the Negro child and the white child who were matched had the same IQ at the beginning of your tests? Yes. Dr. Osborne, you were about to answer the question, what was the purpose of matching these pairs of children in the Savannah school? To determine the achievement, variations in achievement, after the groups had been matched for mental ability and age. Was this an effort to determine whether they stay the same thereafter or change? I had no preconceiv ed ideas, but it was just to watch the groups as they progressed through, from the 6th grade to the 12th grade. Q. Would you please step down again to the easel and identify for us the photoenlargement which is now on the easel? (Witness does same) A. This is from the monograph Figure 4, average intelligence grade placements, Q. As appears in Intervenor’s Exhibit 2, your monograph? A. Yes. Average intelligence grade placements earned on California * Mental Maturity Test by groups of white and Negro pupils equated on the basis of Intelligence quotients earned at the 6th grade level were matched at this point and examined repeatedly---- By the way, the numbers are here. 59 pairs of male students and 8l pairs of females. Q« 131 pairs of students. Were these all taken from the same percentage of their respective groups? A. No. In order to match them at this level here, if you will follow the Kennedy curves, we had to find a selection of children that would fit the two criteria — that is, age and mental ability. They were not from the some sections, as pointed out in the monograph. Q,. Would you explain this graph to us. Why do all the lines start at one point? A. That is a condition of the experiment. They were matched at this point in the 6th grade. Q. In the 6th? Does the single point then mean that they were exactly the same in the 6th grade? A. Yes. Q. And what is your next test point after the 6th grade? A. 8th. Q. And are they 3til}, together at the 8th grade? A. No. They diverge by maybe a half-grade or so. Q. Approximately half a school year apart two years later? A. Yes, guessing — and the figures are in the monograph — but graphically it looks like about a half a grade. Q. When did you next test them? 215 A. 10th grade. Q. And -what was their relative position at that time? A. It looks to me, about two years* difference in mental maturity at the 10th grade level. Q. What was the conclusion of this study on matched pairs in the terms of mental maturity? A. That students matched at the 6th grade, by the time they had progressed to the 12th grade, their differences were again apparent, although hot as much as if they had not been matched at the 6th grade. Well, the trend? The trends are the same as found in the unmatched, but the magnitude is somewhat less. Well, is the magnitude less because they started together? Yes. Well, we artificially put them together. In other words, If we take a Negro and a white student who have the same IQ at a given time, will they have the same IQ two years later? These didn’t, I couldn*t generalize from the data. To the extent that you have tested the pairs, what is your conclusion? That the answer would be no, they do not have. Does It tend to increase or stay the same or what, after it has diverged? A, In general? Q. Is there an increase in difference or a decrease? 216 A. Oh, the difference tends to increase with increasing age, Q. Until maturity, or past? A. Well, I can’t go beyond grade 12. Shat is age 18. Q. Take the next chart a ® identify that. A. These are the same children as we examined them on reading comprehension. Q. These are the matched pairs again? A. That’s rifgit. Q. They start out the same, and you are measuring them in what? Reading? Vocabulary, comprehension, and total. That's right, now, for the children that had the same IQ in the 6th grade, did they have identical vocabulary capacities at that time? Not exactly. Fairly close, but not exactly. Did it stay the same thereafter or did it change? The difference tended to increase from the 6th to the 12th grade. Q. Is that also true of reading comprehension? A. Yes, but to a slighter extent. Q. If you will turn to the next chart and Identify that. A. The same children. Now we are talking about arithmetic achievement. Q. Do they start approximately the same in arithmetic reasoning and fundamentals? A. Very little difference there. The difference there is again more apparent than real. That is almost the same. But as they 217 Q. A. Q. go through the school system, the reasoning difference tends to widen. Now, does it tend to widen at the same rate substantially as the reading did in the last chart, or at a different rate? I believe there was a difference. There is a difference In the rate of change. In other words, they changed differently for arithmetic than for reading? And from reasoning to fundamentals. Dr. Osborne, have you at any time had occasion to read the published Dallas school tests? A. As appeared in U. S. NEWS AND WQRID REPORT? Yes. Yes, I have. Are those results constant with the results you have mentioned for the other cities here today? Slight if any real difference. Do you know of any studies which have been made outside of the South in areas of integrated schools? I am familiar with a report of the Washington, D. C., schools. The report to which you refer has been marked in evidence here as Defendant *s Exhibit 20. Tell me what the figures in Defendant^ Exhibit 20 show in terms of what you have already testified to. A. Basically the same things, if I recall, give or take for a gwyde here or there, but basically the same trend. 218 Q. In other words, the figures given in the D. C. report > are similar to the figures in the southern schools? A. Yes. Q. In terms of these trends which we have been discussing. I would like to read to you at this time what purports to be a portion of an article from the New York Times, reporting the school results in the Harlem schools of New York. (Same was marked as Intervener's Exhibit No. 4 for Identification) 0 Q. Reading from Intervenor's Exhibit 4 for identification, which purports to be an article from the New York Times of October 22nd, 1965: "The pattern in the central Harlem schools shows that 20 perednt of the third grade pupils are below their grade level by about a year. Seventy percent of sixth grade pupils average two years below their grade level, and 85 percent of the eighth graders average three years behind. "The usual measures of retardation are reading and arithmetic achievement. However, I.Q. scores, now widely discredited as an objective measure of intelligence, also show a marked decline." If that statement is true, Dr. Osborne, would it be constant with the figures which you have testified here to this morning as bei tg the typical pattern of Negro and white children? A. Yes. Q. And in your opinion would that change and decline which is reported in the Times be one inherent in the children or v one resulting from the schools? It is not the schools. I mean, the schools are the satos. Save you made any studies, Dr. Osborne, in the pre-school field to determine -whether these trends to which you have testified did or did not, do or do not exist before the child enters school? I am in the process of making studies of that type now, but they havenot been published. Have you come to any conclusions sufficient to form an opinion? Tentative and cautiously, I would say. What were the nature of the studies you have made? The same kinds of measures were conducted with pre-school children and offered as a tentative conclusion, that the conditions obtained in the 1st, 2nd, and third grades also show up at the pre-school level. What is your total conclusion as to the relationship, if any between the pre-school period and the school period in terns of these trends? Is there any difference during pre-school? I would say no. The trend seems to be the same from pre school through the 12th grade. And the differences which have been shown to Increase on these chart3 are differences which exist in the children at the time they first ccme to school? 220 A. They are apparently that, that’s right. Q. Are these differences to which you have testified significant in an educational sense? A. For instructional purposes, yes, I vould say so. Q. Can they be attributed to chance? A. No. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Is there any possibility that these differences which are shown in each of these charts In the cities simply Is an accident? Not as a sampling accident. I think the consistency with which all data — . Would it be true or false to say that essentially what your figures have shown today is that Negro children tend to lag by about one year In four? Yes, in school-type achievement. In school-type achievement. That’s what I'm talking about. Yes. Is it true or false that a difference in rate of learning progress exists even with children of the same IQ when we take a Negro and a white child? My evidence would tend to support that. And that there is a difference of learning ability between the two in terns of subject matter? Kennedy studies and others demonstrate that, yes. And are they consistent with your studies in the field of achievement? Yes. 221 How many years did you state that you have taught? In public school, one year — Wall, all together. Twenty-four, wasn't it? Twenty-four. Based on that experience, as well as on your professional qualifications, Dr. Osborne, wotid you say that separate educational treatment is or is not desirable for Negro and white children? I would say it is. I'm talking purely on educational grounds. Yes, Practical education. In the major tests you made in Savannah, did you take any precaution to avoid the possibility that the teachers were below standard in the Negro schools? Did you make any check at all on that? As part of another study we did study the teachers' quali fications . What was your conclusion on that? The teachers, in terms of recenfcy of training and advanced degrees in terms of salary,in the Negro teachers were better prepared and better paid than our white teachers. In your opinion then, would it be proper to attribute the differences you have testified to to the teachers? Not ifi the usual criteria of teacher qualifications is met — that is, advanced training, advanced degrees and salary. In other words, you have identical or better qualifications? 222 A. Yes. Q. — As far as your tests could show? Yes. In your opinion, Dr. Osborne, what would happen to the achievement level in the white schools of Jackson if group integration were to be undertaken? I'm talking now only about scholastic achievement. And this is an opinion. This is strictly an opinion. Well, statistically, to add the achievement levels of the two groups now and average them, you would, of course, have a lower achievement level. Suppose you held to the came norms which are now used in the white schools, what would happen? Well, the failure rate for Negro children would probably increase. What if you dropped the achievement norm of the school to the rate previously used in the Negro school? There would be —— Well, no failures. I mean, limited or very few failures for the white children. What would be the level of education? It would strike an average of the two groups thrown together. Well, I*ra talking now about dropping the grade requirements, the norm requirements on a grade basis to the ones previously used entirely in the Negro schools. Well, the standards would be lower if you lowered the 223 expectations. Q* Mr. Pittman asks to what extent you tested the teachers in Atlanta? That was done by the National Teacher Examination, sponsored by the Educational Testing Service. I did not do that. And that was the basis on which you drew your conclusions? That1s right. Yes. That is all I have. THE COURT: Any cross examination by plaintiff? MR . BELL: We have no questions. We will just renew our motion we made at the opening part of the testimony to strike the testimony as irrelevant to the issues in this case. THE COURT: Well, I will adhere to my ruling. MR. CANNABA: For and on behalf of all defendants, we would like to adopt the testimony of Dr. Osborne as the testimony for and on behalf of the defendants. THE COURT: Very well. And I will overrule the objection for the reasons I gave heretofore. You may step down. (Witness excused) MR. PITTMAN: I would like to call Mr. Milbome back for a question or two since the testimony of Dr. Osborne. THE COURT: Very well. WILLIAM S. MHJ30RNE, recalled as a witness and having previously been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BV MR. PITTMAN: Q. Mr. Milbome, I believe you were qualified as an expert educator earlier this morning. Is that true, Your Honor? THE COURT: T§s, sir. Q. In 195^, when the Supreme Court rendered its decision in tie famous Brown case, you were then principal of a high school in Louisville, Kentucky? A. Yes, sir. Q* When that decision was rendered in which it was held that segregation injures the personality of Negro children, were you in substantial agreement with that holding or assumption at that time? A. Yes, sir, I was in agreement with it. Q. Now, in 1956 when the integration first took place in louisville, were you still of the opinion that segregation injured the personalities of the Negro children and that the children should be integrated? A. I was still of the opinion that integration was better than 225 segregation. Q. Nov, in the light of your experience with integrated schools from 1956 to 1962, do you still believe that integrated Q. A. Q. A. schools are better than segregated schools for Negro children and for white children? No, sir. From ray experience I have reached the conclusion that the integration that we were undertaking was in the name of a social revolution that was actually injurious to children. Injurious to all children or just some children? Injurious to all. Is that conclusion based both on your experience and your present knowledge as an educator? It is based on ray personal experience in one school. How much integration took place in Louisville after 1956 in your school? As I stated earlier — — Proportionately in numbers. A relatively small amount at the beginning, increasing to approximately 20 percent over a period of time in that par ticular school. I ask you to state whether or not the educational standards of that school went down in the same proportion that the number of colored students increased in the student body? Gradual erosion was about in the same proportion as the increase of Negro students. Q* 226 About what period or what time between 1956 and 1962 did you come to realize from your experience as a school principal and a school man, educator, that a mistake had been made? A. • Well, after about some two or three years' experience with it, I came to the conclusion that we were exploiting the children in the name of a social revolution — that is, that we were assuming that there waa equal ability, and moving along that line, and that put some children, Negro children, in a position they should not have been put in. Q. You heard the testimony of Dr. Osborne. The effect of it was that Negro children fall behind white children in school approximately one year in every four. Does that accord with your observation, substantially, as principal of Male High School in Louisville? ® A. In general, yes. Of course, as to the fail-back, I can't document it exactly as he had it. Q. As an educator, if you should assume that what Dr. Osborne said is true, that Negro children fall behind white children approximately one year in every four, I will ask you to state to the Court what effect that would have upon the educational program where substantial numbers of normal children — - that is, those who make normal progress according to Caucasian standards — are forced into the same rocms and under the same teacher with children who are fall! ng behind one year in every four. What is the effect of that? A. I think ire would be doing a great disservice to the children. Q. would you Injure the personality of all the children in that classroom? A. You*d injure the personality of many. Q,. Of many? A. Yes. Q,. state, as an educator, the difference between teaching a class where all or where substantially all proceeed at approximately the same rate and teaching a class where one portion of it, a substantial portion of it in number, fall behind in gross amounts each year. What is the difference from a standpoint of a teacher? A. Well, it is pretty generally known and accepted that where you have a viab spread of ability in a given class that the teacher*s time is not used in the best manner, for the simple reason that she has got to make planning and exceptions for this level, for this level, and for that level, instead of being able to concentrate on a homogeneous group. Q. Then as a result, if a parent has a child he wants to mare along at a normal rate, and that child can move along at a normal rate, if integration continues in Louisville or if it is instituted in Jackson, will it be necessary for that parent to send that child to a private school? A. Well, the word "necessary" has a number of interpretations. — Q. Would it be advisable, then? A. Would probably be advisable if the parent could afford it to 228 put him In a private school, or in a school all Megro or all -white. Q. When a group of children in the classroom are failing or tend to fail and they drop behind and they realize they can’t catch up and keep up, -what is the result? A. Well, I think failure i3 not a desirable thing. Failure is fatal. It does something to the child's ego, his personality, to fail. Q. Docs that child, in your experience as an educator, try to com ponsate in name way for that deficiency which he knows he has and which he knows his schoolmates know he has? A. Many of them do. And what form does that take frequently? Well, It could take various forms. With one pupil it might be Just a huge Indifference to the whole thing. "So what? Who cares?" To another it might take a different form. He might withdraw into himself and become shy, or withdraw from school. With others It might compensate for that by showing off, being the worst boy or the worst girl in the class. Q. Anti-social conduct? A. Wot necessarily anti-social. It's Just a show-off. Q,. What effect does that have on the progress of normal children, scholastic progress? A. Well, the total effect Is Just a lowering of your school morale and your school achievement. 229 A. Now, one other things Are you as an educator acquainted with the statistics as to the number, relative number, of graduates of southern Negro high schools who qualify for college, as compared with the relative number of graduates of integrated high schools in the north who qualify for college entrance? I have seen statistics along that line. Do you believe them to be credible? To the effect that the opportunity that a Negro has of going on to college if ha3 graduated from an all-Negro school is much beyond that of a Negro who has graduated from an integrated school. Now, you said ''"much beyond. ” Could you give us in numbers what your opinion would be? It has been some years since I heard this, but at that time, as I recall, the statement was that the opportunity open to a southern Negro hi^i school graduate was about seven to one of getting into college over that of a graduate from an integrated school. Now, in conclusion, I will ask you, based upon your knowledge as an educator and your experience and your efforts to make integration work in Louisville, can you point to any area in which you believe or you can state that integration has helped any school children as a group since 1954? I can’t point to anything specific. 250 Q. A. Q- But you can point to specific examples of injury or harm to the educational program? Is that right? Yes, sir, I can. That is all. THE COURT: Any questions by other defendants? MR. WATKDE: No, sir. THE COURT: Any cross examination? MR. HEIL: No, Your Honor. TEE COURT: You may step down. (Witness excused) MR. CANKADA; Our witness would be Dr. Kirby Walker, who will be a rather lengthy witness. Would you like to start before lunch or after lunch? We would prefer to put him on after lunch and go through without breaking. THE COURT: Well, is he here? MR. GANNADA: Yes, sir. THE COURT: We might start out for about ten minutes. KIRBY P. WAIKER, called as a witness in his own behalf and having been duly sworn, testified aa follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. CANNAm: Q. State your name to the reporter, please. A. Kirby P. Walker. Q. Are you the same Kirby P. Walker who previously testified 251 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. In this case, as a defendant In this case? Yes, sir. Mr. Walker, for whom do you work? Board of Trustees of the Jackson Public Schools. How lone have youworked for the Board of Trustees of the Jackson Public Schools? Since August, 1955* In what capacity? In August, 1955, I was the assistant to the superintendent of the schools. In December of 1955 I was elected acting superintendent of schools, and since January of 1957 I have been superintendent of the schools of this district. What is your educational training, Mr. Walker? A. I graduated from the Hattiesburg High School in 1912. I Q. A. was graduated from Southwestern in Tennessee in 1922 with an AB degree. I wa graduated from the University of Chicago with an MA. degree in 193^. I have attended George Peabody College in Tennessee, and have worked at the University of Southern Mississippi and the University of Mississippi. Do you belong to any educational associations? I am a member of the Mississippi Educational Association; the National Educational Association; the American Association of School Administrators. I am a past president of the Southern Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools; I have been a member of the advisory committee to the U. S. Commissioner of P’ducatlon; I have been chairman of the advisory conmitteo to the Educational Testing Service for National Teacher Examinations. I think that's sufficient. THE C0ORT: I believe here is a very good place to stop. I believe we will have recess until one-thirty. ("Whereupon the court was recessed until Is 30 P.M.) After Recess THE COURT: Very well, you may proceed. (Mr. Cannada continues:) Q. I believe when we recessed for lunch you were in the process of giving us the professinal organizations to wiiich you belonged and the offices to which you have been elected. Would you continue that? Also, any training that you have had pertaining to the educational field. A. Yes, sir. With respect to my employment record, I was first employed as a teacher of grades eight to twelve at the Forest County Agricultural High School from 1922 to 1925. I was superintendent of that school from 1925 to 1932. In 1932 I was appointed State supervisor of Agricultural High Schools and Junior Colleges of the State Department of Education of Mississippi. In 193^ and 1935 I was a state director for the emergency educational program sponsored by the State Department of Education, in which there were seme 2,000 teachers employed and a staff of assistants to the di rector. I have been a visiting lecturer at the University of Houston at Houston, Texas. The same at the University of Texas. I have served as a member of the test administration team of some sixty persons, as I recall, vho administered tests In a statewide survey of public education in Mississippi about 1926 or 27. This study was directed by Br. M. V. O’Shea, vho was the Dean of Education at the University of Wisconsin. I was chairman of the Research and Service Commission, for three years for the Southern Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools, doing research for the organization to aid it in its work in accrediting institutions of higher learnings at the secondary level in the State of Mississippi, in the southern states. I am a member of the National Society for the Study of Education; the honorary educational fraternity, Phi Delta. Kappa. I was cited by the University of Chicago as an alumnus vho was recognized as a useful citizen. Southwestern in Tennessee conferred the doctorate on me for my service in public education. I was a member of the connittee ’mown as the Mid-Century Comnittee on Outcomes in Elementary Education, which was a joint project of the United States Office of Education, of the Educational Testing Service of Princeton, New Jersey, and of the Elementary School Principals Associ ation of the National Educational Association. This project was financed by the Russell Sage Pbunclation, and its report was published. I think this very well completes the resume of my work 224 experience. Q. Mr*. Walker, relating your experience, you indicated that you were a part of a team back in 1926 and 1927 that made a survey of the educational facilities and training in Mississippi by Mr. M. V. O'Shea? Is that correct? A. That is right. Q. I hand you a book and ask you if you recognize this. (Hands to witness) A. This is the publication by the B. B. Jones Fund, titled A STATE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM AT WORK, and I am identified on page 16 as a member of the team of educators who administered the test in the State of Mississippi. MR. CAHNABA: If the Court please, we would like to introduce this entire book I ito evidence, with the right to withdraw the original and place a copy In the record. THE COURT: Very well. That could be done. (Same received In evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit Ho.21.) Q. Mr. Walker, I hand you this book which has now been marked as Exhibit D-21 to the testimony of the defendants and ask you when this wa3 published and the name of the publisher. A. This was published in 1927 by the Bernard B. Jones Fund. Q. Would you tell the Court a little of the history of that study and aurvey, and in general the substance of the findings? A. Governor Whitfield in 1925 went to Madison, Wisconsin, and prevailed on Dean O'Shea to organize a study to be made in this state as to the ability and the achievement of its youth in public schools and in colleges and universities. Can you tell us who Mr. 0*Shea -was? Dr. O'Shea was the Dean of Education in the School of Education at the University of Wisconsin. The study took probably a year, as I recall. It involved primarily the measurement by tests, group tests, of youth of the state, both Negro and white. These findings are recorded here, charted, and there are some recommendations and conclusions as to improving the program of education in the State of Mississippi, an I recall. Mr. Walker, you have heard the testimony of Mr. Barker con cerning the tests that have been given to the Negro and white pupils of the Jackson Municipal Separate School District, have you not? I have. I ask you in general do the findings that are reflected in Dr. Barker's charts and reflected in the pupils of the Jackson Municipal Separate School District parallel? or are they similar or dissimilar to the findings made by this study back in 1926, insofar as the distinctions between the Negro and white pupils is concerned. There are tables in the O ’Shea report as to the distribution of Negro pupils with respect to IQ. in each grade of elementary and high schools. Biis has to do with mental ability to do the things that we do at school. And I see here the median score, IQ, ranges from 60 to as high as 86 from grades one e Q to tvelve, ftie average or the median for 5*000 randomly selected Negro pupils, being 75. There is also a table showing the distribution of white pupils in respect to IQ in elementary and high schools. This involves some 23,000 pupils randomly selected, whose median IQ's from grades one to twelve ranged from 92 to 101, with a median for all of 95. There likewise is a table showing achievement of Negro high school seniors in math, science, in history and social studies; and the same is true for white pupils, and the disparity there is somewhat in keeping with the disparity that we find between white and Negro pupils and the mental ability and achievement. And these data seem to confirm and support the evidence that was submitted by Dr. Barker yesterday as to the difference in mental ability and in academic achieve ment of pupils in this particular school system. I ask you, Mr. Walker, does the information that is contained in this O'Shea report insofar as the mental ability and achievement of the Negro and the white pupils back in 1926 conform in general with the relative abilities between the two races as reflected by the charts heretofore introduced pertaining to the pupils of the Jackson Municipal Separate School District? A. My answer to that is yes, recognizing that the instruments that were used for testing 37 or 38 years ago have been improved somewhat, but the norms that were established then tor the nation and the norms that were established for the state with respect to the two groups, and the norms that we have today for the nation and for our district, the district here, are very similar. Mr. Walker, I believe you stated that you have been superinten dent of the Public schools of Jackson for — since 1937? That*3 right. I believe It has also been brought out here in your previous testimony that in 195^ the school board turned over the question of taking enrollments and making temporary assign- n©nts ol the pupils of this district to you. Will you explain to the Court when this was done, how it was done, And, if you know, why it was done? Yes, sir. In August, 19f&, after a conference with counsel for the board of trustees in which, as X understood it, there was some doubt, or maybe -— using slightly different language - there mig#it be a cloud over the constitutional provision of this state for the operation of separate schools. It was counsel’s advice to the board that since this might not be a legal matter any longer that it would be wise for the superintendent,as professional educator and as professional advisor to the board of trustees,to be fully and who lly responsible for admitting, assigning, pupils on an annual basis. This, the board acted, striking from its records all provisions for the zoning cf pupils by school attendance areas, and left the superintendent in the position of having to devise a way to get pupils in school in a reasonable manner, organized and ready for instruction. I had to drav on my background of seventeen years of working with people in this community in a rather intimate way as a school man, having worked with teachers, know! g them personally, knowing literally thousands of patrons, having been in classrooms on an average at least one day a week visiting classes, interrogating pupils, chatting with teachers, asking principals about the school operation, discussing the achievement, the performances, the general tone of the school, knowing something of the social, cultural interests of parents, the aspirations for their children, and being concerned, as I am sincerely concerned, and also concerned as a public school administrator to discharge my duties to the very best of my ability. I tried to devise a way to to assign children to a school that would insure for them, all children, white or Negro, with the resources that we had, so that as little time would be lost as was possible and we would be involved in the instructional program without any undue delay. Therefore, on my own responsibility, knowing where schools were situated, knowing generally the number of pupils that there were or are, were in the community at that time, and having available to us a biannual survey of the number of educables in the district as to residence, age, grade level, I made a public announcement, giving directions to parents through the press that their children should be taken to a school as directed, where they would make appli cation for admission and where they would be temporarily assigned, subject to permanent assignment by the board of trustees at a shhsequent date. At the same time, I instructed principals of schools, both white and Negro, that the pupils who were directed to their buildings were to receive applications and to assign the child or children to the respective schools on a temporary basis. This generally was complied with. The provision was also made and announcement simultaneously provided, copies of which were placed in the hands of principals and generally made known to anyone who was interested in it, that at the staff level provision was being made to receive any requests for a change or changes of assignments of pupils that parents might deem advisable. This wa3 to be effected by making a rather simple request: naming the child, his age, his grade, the name of the parent, and stating the reason why the parent was seeking request of the temporary assignment to be changed to another school. These requests were made by Negro pupils at the adminis trative offices of the school district, which are situated at 1060 lynch Street, and for the other pupils at the adminis- trative offices at 662 South President. Normally we receive some three, four, five hundred requests for changes of assignments, and usually, assuming the reasons submitted are valid and not Just simply a matter of preference but have a basis for good judgment, if we had teachers and classroom facilities to acconsnodate these changes and it did not create an undue demand administratively on us in accommodating such c hanges, these were honored. This work is usually attended to in&out two cr three days following the actual opening of school, and I'd say within a week's time parents have been adaised in person as to whether or not their requests for changes have been approved or not, and at a regular meeting of the board of trustees some days later we have been making report to the board as to the assignment, temporary assignment, of pupils, following which the board has made assignments permanent. This procedure continues throughout the year for any newcoming pupils or pupils who may change their residence from one part of the school district to another. I believe this fairly well describes what was done when we were given the responsibility of assigning pupils on an individual basis. Q. As I understand your testimony, Mr. Walker, this procedure was prescribed by you in the summer of 1954 for the school 241 A. Q. A. A. Q. session *54-*55# is that correct? Eiat Is right. Has that procedure in substance been followed ever since? It has. It has been followed with very little change, other than annually we have been compelled to make some changes in our instructions as to where children should go to — or the parents of the child should go to make application for admission, that being due to two conditions: one, the district has grown considerably in area and in population, school population; and, second, we have had some build-ups in some areas where, as new facilities were made available, we were able to make abetter assignment or distribution of pupils to schools. Has at any time since the summer of 1954 to date the board of trustees Interfered in any way In your conduct of your responsibilities under this delegation to you of taking these applications and making the temporary assignments? Ho, the board has made no inquiry, has not interfered, and has not been concerned, other than to act as we have recommended each month on the recommendation that assignments that have been made temporary are now prepared or ready to be marked or made permanent. Mr. Walker, In the handlirg of these several hundred, as you say, requests for transfer each year, do you explain to the parents why a particular transfer is or is not approved, or why it isn’t approved If it isn’t? If there has been a request for a change of assignment which we have not been able to honor, we have reported to the parent that his application could not be honored and we have stated the reasons why. We have often asked, 'Would you like for us to hold this request in suspense so that, if at a later date the enrollment of the educational situation at that school became different from what it was that time, we might then review it and make the change?" Mr. Walker, in the approximately ten years in which this procedure has been in effect, has there been a single pupil or a single parent to appeal to the board of trustees from the temporary assignment previously made by you or under your supervision? There has been none. As I understand your testimony, the board of trustees has never actually passed on a protest or complaint from any pupil or parent in this district? We have had no protest, we have had no announced intention to protest; we hove had 3ome very earnest people who were very- eager to have the change in assignment made, but without exception, when we revealed to them the actual facts with respect to teaching loads and the ability to serve the child where he was then as compared to where they were asking to be transferred, they have seemed to have been satisfied. I would say that this sort of arrangement, in ray own mind, was filled with possibilities of real difficult school 243 administration. It has proved, surprisingly to me, that it can be done and that people generally are very cooperative] and this applies to all of them. We haven’t really had a serious problem with respect to the assignment of pupils as we have directed. I can say to you that it perplexes some people; they get annoyed because I can’t tell them as of new where their child will be attending school next September. As a matter of fact, I don’t know now and will not until shortly before the opening of school. .That answers my next question. As a matter of fact, as I understand your testimony, you do this each year independent entirely of the preceding year? Is that correct? A. That is correct. At what time during each year under your procedure will you entertain any request for transfers or for assignment to a particular school? > All applications are invited and are to be made if they are residents of the district and wish to attend the public school, during the week immediately preceding the opening of the school session, which, by board policy, is the second Monday In September. So that, Mr. Walker, if any parent, white or Negro, of this district, if he should inquire of you prior to September of any particular year as to where his child or children will attend V- ; > * 1 v . - - ^ school the next year, what has been your answer? My answer is, and has been for the past ten years, that I 244 provision will be made and announcement will be made for you to make an application at a school, at which time you will make written application for your child to attend, and he will be assigned at that tine, but until that announcement is made, I am not in position to advise where the child will attend school. Q. Is the parent advised at that time concerning his ri$it to make a request for a transfer if he is dissatisfied with the temporary assignment? That question is often naked. "Suppose he is assigned to a school that I don't want him to attend? I’d rather he attend another school.11 We take the tine then to explain that an opportunity is provided for them to make written request, but until they have actually made an application and until they have actually been assigned — the child has been assigned to a school — we cannot entertain applications for changes of assignment. Nov, there are two reasons for that. One of them is that information is not available to us as to where we are going to direct them to go for their assignment — that is, early. The second reason is that many of the inquiries that we have early in the year are by persons who may not even be in the / I ■ V •„ ,r . .school district or may be moving to other areas of the school district or contemplating it, and we can't anticipate to that extent what our answer should be to accoaanodate any • 1 l ■ i V,:- ' JV _ £number of requests that Diay not be too firm in their original Mr. Walker, In the last ten years since 195^, has there been a 3Ingle exception to this procedure that you have stated, insofar as waiting until the week before the opening of school and having everyone make application and be tempo rarily assigned before he or she has any idea where he or she shall attend? None that I know of. You name the week, and it could be that in the ten year period we may have had seven or eight days, but the same procedure has been followed. This procedure is followed universally, for all parents and pupils of this district? Thatfs correct. Now, you stated that in settin g up this procedure you announced publically through the press that certain students were to go to sertain schools to make their appli cations for enrollment and to be temporarily assigned. In making that decision, did you take into consideration the characteristics of the races, or the races themselves, of the pupils of this district? Veil, I was inferring that. If I did not make it clear in my earlier statement — That I had personal knowledge of the operation of the schools, the facilities, where they are, the teachers, their fitness for their respective jobs. I knew of the academic performance of pupils. I knew that as to white anc Negro pupils as far back as 1927 when I was a member of this study team, testing them. I had seen in the annual reports 246 of principals, supervisors, directors of the school system reports as to pupil ability, achievement, promotion. I had what I considered adequate professional background to make a professional judgment as to the assignment of all pupils. Q,. As I understand it, in making, issuing, your instructions for the making of the applications for admission and temporary assignment, you did have pupils of the Negro race make applications to schools at 'which pupils of the white race did not make application, and vice versa? A. Shat is right. Did you give instructions to the principals or teachers of those respective schools as to which pupils would be assigned to the school that he or she was in charge of? Yes. ©lat was actually in form of a directive to all principals, giving them information, specific information, that white pupils within certain prescribed areas as of that moment would be directed to certain schools; they would take their applications for admission, and after receiving the applications, they would be assigned temporarily by the prin cipal or the teacher, as we had instructed. The same applied to Negro pupils. So that in making your temporary assignments, the race or the characteristics of the race was a factor in the making of your decision? Is that correct? It was the base of it. Q. Dr. Walker, would you explain to the Court vhy, In your judgment as an educator. If there Is any reason for, from educational reasoning looking toward the education to be furnished to the pupils of this district, and In exercising your judgment in making the temporary assignments — why you have taken into consideration the characteristics of these two races? A. Well, if I might, I would like to make a historical, coaraent or two before answering that question specifically. la this state nearly a hundred years ago following a period of military occupation, a constitutional convention was held, the membership of which was, as I would think of it, a new political order. That convention had as one of its jobs devising a constitution under the new day following the War Between the States, and one of the sections had to do with education. Oils convention was in session a number of days, and it concluded that there should be separate schools for the white and Negro races. Q. What was the year of that convention? A. 1868, and I believe the constitution was adopted in 1869. This means to me, as I review it, that this was the idea of the membership of that convention, which had a number of Negro citizens in its membership. It was their idea that we should have separate schools for the races. It seems to me it is a good idea, and I think they were night. Under that constitution in 1888 the people of this school district determined for themselves that they would organize a graded school system in what was then called a separate school district. This provided for a common school board for the schools in the district, white and Negro. That arrangement for the administration of schools remained in effect or has remained in effect until this date. Now, I mentioned earlier that in 1954 a new problem was posed for the district. Our board of trustees detemined that in light of the new order that had been given and its possible clouding effect on the constitution of this state with respect to separate schools, the superintendent should act professionally in this business of administering education in the assignment of pupils and organizing pupils for instruction. I have mentioned that I had background in this school system for that, and I have described what I have tried to do v in the administration of this program. I think it should be pointed out that in this syfetem there are thousands of children, that roughly the ratio is 60 percent white and 40 percent Negro. This may vary some one or two percent, but generally this is the pattern, for a number of years. This district has a sufficient number of white and Negro pupils, it has a sufficient number of white and Negro teachers, it lias sufficient number of supervisory and administrative staff to give each race of children, based on their mental ability, based on the perfor mance record that we have known for years, we have felt that we had a very fortunate situation where ve were in a position to go right ahead with an instructional program that would be beneficial to both groups* Let me be a little more specific. Teachers in their relationship tothe child who is assigned to him, or to them, is in fact in loco parentis. When the 1st grade child comes to school, he comes with roughly six years of previous learning, identifyinghimself with his friends, selecting his associates, expressing his preferences and letting them be known; he develops habits, he has attitudes that have been given him by his parents and by his friends and associates. We have assigned children to teachers who, in place of parents, if you please, are ready, prepared, willing, capable of serving that child as a parent and as a teacher while the child is in the custody of the school. This is desirable. As my former distinguished colleague, Mr. James Gooden, said yesterday — and I'm in agreement with him — that a child must be made to feel at ease, be wanted, loved, to perform at his best. Wiis holds whether the child is white or Negro, Actually, in the early years of school life, a teacher does many things, administers to a child in many ways over and beyond that of simply serving as a formal director of his learning. They help them in toilet, they help them with their lunches, they help train them in their moral values. And it seemed to me, and still stems to me, that 250 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. the teacher In hiB or her relationship with the child should be one who understands the culture, who understands the l abilities, who aspires for that child as he would for his own child that his educational opportunities be good. This to me then says that it would have bean a mistake for me to have thought of anything else than to have assigned a child to a teacher where there would be rapport and a good working relationship. let mo go a bit further. — Let me interrupt at that point, Dr. Walker. Of course, in the first six years of the age of a child the school system as such has no control over him at all? None whatsoever. So that when he comes to school, a six year old for the first time, you have to work with him and do with him as you get him and try to give him the best education you can? lhat is right. All right. Go ahead. I was going to comment next that there is a partnership rela tionship or a reciprocal relationship between teacher and parent. I am fimn In my belief that there is no parent, or there was no parent In 1$5^ and up until recently I knew of no sincere parent who would have entertained the idea, or who did entertain the idea, that hi child should be placed in a different school situation than to which we had assigned him; namely, that the Negro pupils expected and their parents I expected to have them taught by our capable Negro teachers, and the white parents expected the same of their white teachers. 'Hie point la that our local experience, our local facts, — and I'm speaking for this district — could not be ignored, and had I disregarded the educational and the social facts that are characteristic of white and Negro pupils, I would have been derelict in ray duty to both groups, and injury would have cane to both. Q. Are you speaking in that regard with respect to the education of these people? A. I am speaking of education of children. That is our area of responsibility. Q. Do you feel you are charged with the responsibility for the social reformation of this area? A. No, sir. Our duty is to conduct an educational program as prescribed by the state that will provide for children who enter the schools opportunity to acquire knowledge, usable skills, good attitudes, and an understanding of moral values. Q.. Mr. Walker, in connection with the education of these pupils, would you give us a basic distinction between a pupil and a student? A. We refer to children in the cotranon schools, grades one to twelve, as pupils, not as students. Students are persons -— or we think of them as individuals who are capable of independent study, who can more or less on self-determination direct their learning. Pupils are those who are actually 251 subjec t to direction, discipline, management, and who are, as I said earlier, in a relationship more like that of a child to his parents than as a matured 3Q If-determining individuals j ~ ' i V . \ f.' . • .. Q, As a matter of fact, Mr. Walter, in the conduct of the schools here in this district, legally as veil as practically, are you and your principals and teachers serving in the place of parents \diile the pupils are on the vay to school, in school, and on their vay home? A. That is my understanding, and that is our direction to principals, to teachers, that at the time a child leaves his home until he returns at the close of a school day, he is fender the teacher's charge and our responsibility. Q. Mr. Walker, even if this were not true legally, as a practical matter would it be time? A. Well, I think parents expect it of us. Right. Q. In making your decision concerning the assignment of these pupils, you have indicated you tOok into consideration the characteristics as developed by the pupil, of the child, before he comes to the school that he had developed over the six years before he starts to school, and he presents himself for education, and you in the exercise of your responsibility have tried to assign him to a school to which he would get the best education which this district was capable of giving him. Bid you also take 1 rto consideration, or did you not, the achievement and ability level as reflected by the records of your district? 255 A« Difes, air. We have records similar to those that were submitted by Jr. Barker that 50 back to 1550, 1940, and possibly earlier. While not in the same form, the general pattern of each of these sets of records over a period of years is very similar to that which was submitted by ft*. Barker, and, as I have indicated earlier, consistent with the findings of the O ’Shea study in 1927? which covered the state. Q, Mr. Walker, you have heard Dr. Barker testify concerning the various charts and graphs and information he has presented as a result of the tests given in this district, have you not? A. Yes, sir, I have. Q. You were familiar with that information at the time it was compiled by nr. Barker? A, That information is seen by me and submitted to the board of trustees as a part of my responsibility to the board annually. And you had this information, or similar Information, available to you in 1954 when you first made the decision? A, I did. Q. — Concerning the assignment of these children? A. 1 did, and prior to that also. Q* And you have had the same information each year since? A. Somewhat similar, yes, sir. Q« Have you had anything in the information since 1954 that would lead you to a conclusion that your judgment in this is wrong or even questionable? A. Caere is no basis at all for me, acting in good faith as a person responsible for th© education of all the youth of this district, to modify the present plan of assigning pupils to schools. Let m say here that the fact that there are differences may not be a matter that any one of us vants to deal with or face, but they are factual as we see them. I have many esteemed friends of the Negro race. I Served approximately 500 Negro teachers and principals, supervisors. I serve also approximately 850 white teachers and principals and supervisors. I meet with teachers, I have advising groups of Negroes and whites, professional and lay persons. Uhls is not a matter for me to have animus about, to be loud in talk. This to me is an educational problem, one to be dealt with as objectively as I know how, as fairly as I know how, which leads me to say that not only do I have an obligation to a professional staff, I have an obligation to be fair to the children and fair to the taxpayers who provide a program of education and facilities. I am a prudent person. We ere in a state or district that’s relatively not a wealthy district nor a wealthy state. I must, as a responsible, practicing school administrator, must be intelligent and reasonable in trying to provide administrative organization, personnel, and the use of material resource so that every child will find in the public education service in this district — which is mass education, more than 55,000 255 children being enrolled in these schools — they must find — we must use these resources so that they will find within these limits their beat opportunities to develop themselves educationally, . . •' K '*-***4 1 Q. Mr. Walker, as I understand what you have said then, it Is that since fchj a has been in effect for the last ten years and the responsibility has been yours, you have seen nothing from standpoint, the educational/aachievement-viBe or otherwise, from any other factor, that would lead you to the conclusion that & change should be made In these temporary assignments? A. Well, In light of the experience that we have, the evidence ■ that is before us, I think we would be capricious in our action and on an unsound basis if we had proposed to the board * t , w|45r r ,/*V- • of trustees that it modify in any way the organisation and administration of schools as we have been recommending. Q. That is from the education of the children? A. Correct. t ■ r , ’ Q. Mr. Walker, I want to ask you this*. In the performance of the exercise of your duties and responsibilities, have you called upon the responsible Negro citizens, as well as white citizens, to analyze this school system and make re commendations and suggestions? A. Yes. About three and a half years ago the Board of Trustees was very concerned about the rapid growth of the district, the increasing tax rates, and the question as to whether or not the district would be able to maintain its educational services at the level that they were then operating. It occurred to those of us In the administrative staff of the board of trustees that the best way to look at that question vas to actually make & comprehensive study of the facility use and personnel us© of the public schools of this district. Ve accordingly made a re comas ndat ion to the board that it establish an advisory body of lay citizens, one-third of whom would be representative of professional business life of the community, one-third of whom would be homemakers, mothers and fathers, without regard to occupation or professional basis or status, and the third be composed of persons in education who are not necessarily members of the staff of the public school system. This group of some 25 or JO persons, as I recall, invited approximately 90 white citizens, using the same general category of representation as I described far the advisory body, and a similar ccianitteeof about 90 Negro citizens. The suggestions for the membership of this cotanittee came from persons outside of the school board or outside of the school staff. An advisor, a consultant, was retained by the board to work with the study caanlttee* tjhlte and Negro, with membership of about 90 each, and to serve as a consultant to the advisory body that would finally submit a report to the board. Now, your question was whether or not there was an opportunity or had there been Negro and white citizens 257 advising on the operation of the schools, I believe* Shortly after this study was under way, it was concluded that they would be very comprehensive in their work, and this applied to both the Negro and the white study committees. They were given complete rein to inquire into, visit, inspect and evaluate any part of the school operation, finance, facilities, personnel, pupil achievement, accounting, o p whatever they ware interested in* This was done, the product of which was a report to the board in due time "— I*d say probably a year later — advising the board on the best use that it might make of personnel and facility and material resource. <1* As a result of that study or any other studies that have been i conducted, has there fever been a suggestion or a recommendation that your procedure of making tenporary assignments, talcing applications for enrollment and making temporary assignments, be changed in any way? A* None whatsoever, by white or Negro. Q. As a matter of fact, ia there any real distinction in this district between the facilities, the courses of study, or the courses offered to the members of the white and Negro races? A* I testified yesterday, I believe it was, that there vas no material or substantial difference in program or services, and I know certainly from a standpoint of board policy and Intent of school administration there is none* 258 Q,. in other vords, the facilities, course of study, and the program of study is available to all, regardless of the group to which they belong? A. That is right. * * * *1 ,v '. V '• " ‘V '/•W ' f ' • *v * ’ "*<tat • : '*» • - « if,-. . $ V ‘ y • / V • . * ; ‘ /.•’ * f . . - • Q. And are there any material differences in the teachers between the two groups? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Mr. Walker, you have heard the testimony of Mr. Barker to the effect that ft?am the mental abilities test it appears that . the gap between the white pupils and the Negro pupils widens as they progress, whereas by and large in this district the achievement level, while there is a substantial gap, remains fairly constant. You have heard him further testify that it is his opinion that is a result of a super or extraspecial effort on the part of the Negro pupils,in that they are maintaining the seme gap, even thou^i their IQ or their ability is falling off. Do you agree with that? A. I agree with that, and I attribute that to a real earnest effort on the part of teachers in our Negro schools to close the gap, so to speak, or to overcome any limitation the child . may have. I believe the word that we would normally use to describe it would be that they were over-achieving, the point being that they were achieving at a better level or a better rate than we would normally expect, based on their mental ability as revealed by the testing that has been used heretofore. 259 Q, I gather you are proud of that record? A, I think It is an excellent record, and I think teachers are very proud of it. q . From an educational standpoint, you think that is desirable? A. That they improve? Q. Yes, sir. A. I certainly do. If, many years in the future down the road, that gap should close between these two groups, would that have any effect upon your thinking as an educator? Let me comment here, if I may. And I think I see some of this in testimony I have witnessed here. The debate between nature or nurture, as to which is the prevalent factor, has been going on for some time. I do not pose as a sociologist nor as a geneticist, psychiatrist, psychologist, or biologist; I am a practical,practicing, school administrator. I have been earnestly evaluating instruction; I have been personally in classrooms; I'm not a desksitting superintendent. If the facts change where we have a different evidence as to mental ability, a different evidence as to achievement, with that information I would be compelled by duty and by conscience to report to the board of trustees and advise them as to the import of this in educational organisation of the schools for which they are responsible. 260 i q . As I understand your testimony, your concern is for the best education possible for the children of all races, and that is That you vill attempt to do, regardless of the social problem? A. That is my duty. Q. And that is what you have been doing since you have had this responsibility as superintendent of these public schools? A. It certainly is, and will continue to be. Q. And in your Judgment as an educator, the assignment procedure that is now being followed and has b e m followed for the last ten years is accomplishing the best education for the children of all races? A. I believe it finaly. Q. Of course, throughout this district, we have a number of schools. Vill you give to the Court roughly the number of schools and the total number of dollars invested in our school system? A. There are 51 school buildings; there are 56 which are attended by white pupils and 16 of which are attended by Ifegro pupils. There are approximately 35*000 pupils. The value of the school plant vill well exceed thirty million dollars, I believe. I*m not too fresh on these figures, but that is an approximate valuation. Q. You have heard Mr. Barker, of coqrse, testify to these charts which show the amount which show that the average achievement of white students is substantially above the national norm on all the tests taken. Q. You are familiar with that? A. Yea, sir. Q, You*re proud of that, are you? A. I am. I ’m very proud of this school system. If I didn’t appear to be too inmodest, I night say I visited at schools all over this nation, I know a number of school men intimately, anfl as objectively as I can be, knowing that I have a personal identity with it, and discounting my value of that extent, I know of no school district in this nation that enjoys the good patronage, the excellent cooperation of people in trying to provide for their young people, their children, a good program of public education. I have no apology to make for any part of It. Q, Mr. Walker, are you familiar with the study that is made regularly as to people over 25, the average years of schooling that they have had? ' A. Yas, I am. Q. I hand you a booklet and ask if you recognise this? A. ©lis is the U. S. Census of Population, I960, the United States summary containing general social and economic characteristics of the people. Q. How, Mr. Walker, have you taken from that publication some information concerning the years of schooling that has been completed by adults 25 years and older in some of the larger metropolitan areas of this country? A. I have, and have had a chart prepared accordingly. Q. X hand, you a document and ask If tills Is that chart? A. This is. MR. CAHR&DA.: We’d like to put this Into evidence. We offer this as an exhibit to his testimony. MR, BELLi We will aoke the sane objection, Your Honor. THE OODKPt Vhry well. I overrule the objection. (Saras received In evidence and marked as Defendant’s Exhibit So, 22) please, and explain the significance of this to the Court. (Witness complies) A* Bile Is a chart shoving the educational characteristics of selected large cities frc*a the I960 U. 3. Census of Population showing the median school years completed and the percent of persons 25 years old and over coexisting higi school or better. I selected these cities as representative of large Metro politan cities of this nation in the Midwest, East, and Far west. In every instance we have here a city which, compared to any city in Mississippi, is of great wealth per capita and otherwise. I would like to read these In ascending order — that is, starting with St. Louis, Missouri, where the persons 25 years old and over in the I960 census showed median school i©ars completed as S.8 years, Baltimore, Maryland, 8,9 yearej Louisville, Kentucky, 9.3 yearsj Cleveland, Ohio, 9.6) Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 9.6 years) Detroit, Michigan, 10 years) Chicago, Illinois, Q. If you will, Mr, Walker, step down over this way, if you will, 10. years! Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, 30. years] Naur York, New York — Ifew Y°rk City, 10.lj Washington, D. C., U.7? Los Angeles, (^ll/Ornla, 12.1. Those represents grades or years of schooling completed. It Is Interesting t© note that of the total population 25 years old or over,In the city of St. Louis, Missouri, 26.5 percent of the population has completed high school or better. BaltiRwre, 26.2 percent] Louisville, 32.lj Cleveland, 30.1 percents Philadelphia, 30.7 percents Detroit, Michigan, 3**% Chicago, Illinois, 35• 2 percent; Pittsburgh, 35-^1 Hew York City, 37.4; Washington, D. C., 1*7-8; and Los Angeles, Calif ornia, 53-4. q , while those could be shown on another chart, so the picture will be complete will you tell the Court, if you know, the average grade that has been completed by the adults of the Ja Jackson district 25 years and over? A. 12.1 years. Q. m other words, in this district, the average grade completed by an adult 25 years old is 12.1 grades? Is that correct? A. That's right. And that is an equivalent to the hi^aest on this chart, of Los Angeles, California. Q, That compares all the way from 8.8 of St. Louis, Missouri, to — In other words, the adults in this district have completed more formal education on the average than all these metropolitan areas? A. Excepting Los Angeles. Q. Except Los Angeles, and it is the same? A. The same. Equivalent. Q. In other words, percentagewise — . Do you know the percentage in this district that has- a hl*gi school degree or better? q A. I have it on the other chart. I don't recall. — 5^ percent. Q. That's compared with --- A. That exceeds every one on this other chart, selected large cities. Q. This ranges all the way from 26.3 in St. Louis, Missouri? A. That's right. Q. I hand you another chart and ask if you recognize this. A. I had this prepared also. Q. Is that a group of capital cities somewhat similar in size to Jackson, containing the same information? A. Not similar size, but representative of capital cities in the Midwest, East, and South. MR. CANNADAi We'd like to put this in evidence. THE COURT: let It be marked and received in evidence. (Same received in evidence and marked as Defendant's Exhibit No. 23) THE COURT: And we'll take a ten minute recess. (Whereupon court was recessed for ten minutes) After Recess (Mr. Cannada continues:) Q. Mr. Walker, with reference to the schedule that has been marked as Exhibit 55 to the testimony of the defendants, would you read that to the Court, if you would, and give the explanation? A. This is a chart showing the educational characteristics of selected capital cities, taken from the i960 TJ. S. Census Population Report, and as with the other chart, it shows persons 25 years old and over as to median school years completed and percent completing hlgi school or better. And these are also in ascending order, starting with Nashville, Tennessee, which has an 8.9 median school years completed by persons 25 years of age and over. Atlanta, Georgia, 10.5 years; Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, 10,8j Albany, New York, 10.9; Springfield, Illinois, 11.1; Columbus, Ohio, 11.2; Columbia, South Carolina, 11.5; Lansing, Michigan, 11.9; Montgomery, Alabama, 11.9; Jackson, Mississippi, 12.1. Hie percent completing high school or better for these same capital cities are as follows: Nashville, Tennessee, 29*5; Atlanta, Georgia, 40,5; Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, 40.8; Albany, New York, 42.4; Springfield, Illinois, 44.3; 11 Columbus, Ohio, 44.2; Columbia, South Carolina, 46.1; Lansing, Michigan, 49.4; Montgomery, Alabama, 49*1, Jackson, Mississippi, 54.0. 200 Q,. Now, Mr. Walker, do these percentages, with reference to this exhibit end the preceding exhibit, include all adults 25 years old and over, regardless of race? A. Uiey do. Q. A H right. In other words, It includes members of both the white and — — White and non-white. Now, do you have information as to the percentage of whites and non-whites for thes e respective cities? From the 1962 county and city data book published by the Bureau of Census, i960 population, I have taken the percent of the population for each of these large cities and each of the capital cities as to the percent of non-white in each of these. For example, in St. Louis, Missouri, 28.8 percent of its population is non-white; Baltimore, Maryland, 55 percent; Louisville, Kentucky, 18 percent; Cleveland, Ohio, 28,9 percent; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 26.7 percent; Detroit, Michigan, 29.2 percent; Chicago, Illinois, 25*6 percent; Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, 16.7 percent; New York City, 14.7 percent; Washington, D. C.-, 54.8 percent; Los Angeles, California, 16.8 percent. For the capital cities, Nashville, Tennessee, 37*9 percent population non-white; Atlanta, Georgia, 58.5; Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, 19.1; Albany, New York, 8.5 percent; Springfield, Illinois, 6.8 percent; Columbus, Ohio, 16.6 percent; Columbia, South Carolina, 50.4 percent; Lans^Jng, Michigan, 6.5 percent; 20T Montgomery, Alabama, 35*3 percent! and Jackson, Mississippi, has 35.7 percent. Q. So that with only rare exceptions, the notable one being Washington, D. C., Jackson has a larger proportion of Negroes percentagewise than all of these cities we have mentioned? A. Atlanta, Georgia, I believe, and Nashville, Tennessee, have slightly larger percentages. Q. And all of these capital cities you have mentioned here ihave population in excess of 50,000, do they not? Uiey do, yes, sir. Now, Mr. Walker, in your forty years of experience, starting back with your survey in 1926 and *27 and up to today, I believe you have stated that the pattern of the difference between your achievement and educational levels of the two races has remained, somewhat in the same pattern? A. That Is right. Q. During that period of time, have you noticed any improvement in tiae cultural level of the Negro race? A. I have been, as an educator, I have been responsible for an education program involving white and Negroes since 1937* That is 27 years. And in that 27 year period, I have seen considerable improvement in the cultural level of our Negro population in this district. Q. Even though that be a fact, the pattern as to the distinction between the education and achievement of the two races remains substantially the same proportion? A. Approximately the same as it has been, to my knowledge, for 27 or 50 years. Q. Mr. Walker, in your judgment, will you tell the Court whether there is anything positive or affirmative, as an educator looking toward the education of these people of this district, in making assignments or educating these children in separate schools by race? A. First, let me say that as I would see it,from the evidence in the two charts we have Just seen, we have a record of a school district where the median years of school completed by adult population is equal to or exceeds school districts all over the country, whether they ere segregated or desegregated. That says to me that where you have separate schools for the races that you have the best achievement record of your total population, certainly better than in any of the cities that we have identified here. Reviewing ray experience and looking at the facts as I know them, — and that has to do with the educability of white and Negro youths that attend public schools — knowing the characteristics, the educational characteristios and the social characteristics of the whit® and Negroes who attend schools in this district, I emcompelled as a professional educator to the conclusion that separate schools for the races in this district, for the reasons cited, is for the best interest of all children, and we would be in a position of injuring educationally, denying them \7hat is really their best educational opportunity, white and Negro, if we did not keep in mind that the pact experience is clear, and that we have no basis upon which to make another judgment. MR. CANNADA: We have no further questions. THE COURT: Any questions by any of the other defendants? By the intervenors? DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LEONARD: Q. Mr. Walker, regarding that figure for Washington, D. C., which, as I recall, you stated was quite high and that they had quite a high Negro population percentage. Is that a correct statement? A. The percent of non-white population in Washington, D. C., in the i960 census was 3^*8. Q. And of the persons over 25 who had a hi$i school education or better, it was what? A. 11.7 years of completed schooling. Q. In other words, Washington, D. C. was close to your own figure, wasn't it? It was in the higher bracket? A. Yes, sir, it was. Q. And the people 25 years or older in Washington in i960 were 270 A. Q. a product of which? ®ie previously separate schools or the never intermixed schools? These are all adults who at seven years earlier would have been 18 years of age, which is about the typical time to graduate from high school. And that would have been before— — That would have been in 1955* Before the Brown decision? Yes, I believe that’s correct. Yes, sir. There was testimony yesterday from Congressman Williams that you will recall that until 195^ the schools in Washington were segregated. I remember. With respect to the educating power of your schools and your schools as separate schools, I want to read you material which purports to costae from a book by professor Eli Ginsberg at Columbia called THE NEGRO POTENTIAL, and ask whether this agrees with your experience in the Jackson Schools: "This means that only three out of every hundred graduates from segregated Negro hi$i schools in the South are qualified for a good interracial college." Is three percent essentially that which you have in Jackson? A. I don’t know. Q. Next, he says: "Less than one out of every hundred Negro students in the North and West was fully qualified for college 271 admission." A. I don’t know that either. Q. Has your experience been that your system turns out more Negroes proportionately who are qualified for college than the Northern schools do? A. I believe they do, yeo, sir, both white and Negro. Q. Do you know who Jack Greenberg is? Have you heard his name? A. I believe he Is an attorney for tie NAACP. Q,. He wrote a took called RACE RELATIONS IN AMERICAN LAW, and I would like to quote you some figures from his book and ask whether this concurs with your experience. He states that 2k to 4.4 percent of the Negro high school graduates in Southern separate schools attains national college admission standards, whereas in a survey of fifty leading Northern integrated high schools having a thirty percent Negro enrollment, less than two-tenths of one percent of the Negro graduates could meet these scholarship standards." A, I don’t know the record of the northern schools. Q,. Well, does the southern statement agree with essentially the type of education you are giving in Jackson? A. May I see the statement, rattier than listen to it? I’m more visual-minded than audio-oriented. Q. Certainly. (Handa to witness) A. I'm not familiar with the northern record. I would be lncliiBd to the view that we have a considerable number of graduates of 272 high schools attended by Negroes that vould be admitted to Q. A. Q. universities and colleges anywhere in the nation. Do you knov of any who have gone to northern colleges? Vould this come to your attention? I have a general recollection, but I could not name individuals nor numbers. I vould lilce to read to you at this time, Mr. Walker, rather than show you, some figures concerning a city, and I want to ask you whether you think they are as good or worse than the results you are obtaining with Negro education in this city: — MR. BELL: Your Honor, I think we would like to enter another objection. This reading or entering into the record material that hasn’t been introduced is both improper and the relevancy is 30 far removed from this case that, notwithstanding the earlier ruling, I think it appropriate that we object. This is getting far afield. MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I do not offer this material for the truth of the statement. I offer it for the basis of a hypothetical question to Mr. Walker, as an expert. He has been qualified as an expert and has information on the Jackson schools, so I do not offer this to prove what the truth is as to these various other statements. It is merely whether it agrees with his experience. THE CCOHT: Very well, I will overrule the objection and let you get it into the record, but I don’t think it has any 27? probative force as I see it at this time* You may ask the question, and I will let him answer. Q. In the 3rd grade Metropolitan achievement scores: white scores, 3.7 years; Negro scores, 2.5 years, a lag of 1.2 years in the 3rd grade reading. In the 6th grade reading: for white grade average, 6.9; for Negro average, 4.7, a difference of 2.2 years in reading at the 6th grade level. At the 8th grade level, in reading: 8.4 is the white average; 6.0 is the Negro average, a difference of 2.4 years in reading at the 8th grade level. Now, my question to you, Mr. Walker, are these essentially the standards — have you reached the same standards, or are you more advanced in Negro education than the figures I have just given you? Those are in terms of grades? ©lose are in terms of grade equivalents. I believe our records here, in terns of stanine, I would say the pattern is somewhat similar, although the disparity may be slightly varying. Essentially the same pattern that you have here? That is right. That Is all. THE COURT: Cross examine. CROSS EXAMINATION B3T MR. BELL: Q,. Without reviewing all your testimony you have given over the last two hours, am I correct in concluding that,based on all your professional opinion and your studies and your experience to the effect that the separate school system presently operated here in Jackson is the best for all the people, that you have made and plan to make no compliance with the Court's order of March 4th until further orders of the Court are entered? MR. CANNADA: We object to that. That has no bearing in this lawsuit. MR. BELL: Could I be heard? I was Abiding by the Court's ruling of yesterday, and I don't mean to ask the same thing, but I think, Your Honor, in view of the nature of the testimony that we have received here this afternoon starting back with the origination of segregation of the schools of Jackson back in the 19th century and carrying through here with a complete detailed picture of why the super! ntendent feels that segregation is the best, why after the 1954 decision they revamped their assignment procedures so as to give him the authority of making such assignments according to these racial characteristics — In all this testimony he has given us of his view as to why we need to continue a segregated basis. I think the question I asked is appropriate and can be distinguished from the question you sustained objection on yesterday. 275 THE COURT: The question I sustained objection to yesterday called for something to the effect of what they had done since — MR. BEIL: — That's right, what had they done since March 4th. Now, based on their testimony today, I am asking whether they are planning to do anything unless further ordered by the Court. THE COURT: Well, I will sustain the objection to that. That will be passed upon later when they submit the plan. I don't think it is competent here now because it would stir up, very probably, and handicap the preparations of the plan that I have ordered to be filed by the 15th of July, or whenever it wasj so I sustain the objection to that. MR. BEIL: All rigit, Your Honor. We have no further questions. THE COURT: You may step aside. (Witness excused) MR. CANNADA.: The defendants rest. MR. HELL: I think at this moment,if the defendants have rested and before the intervenors proceed,that it migit be helpful to attorneys for plaintiff if we could gather together for a little conference so as to get some idea of har this case is going to proceed, and a few other questions. Would that be possible? THE COURT: Well, my thought was to have the intervenora put on what testimony they have in the Jackson case, with your right of rebuttal. Then the Jackson case would be concluded. Then we would take up the Leake County case. MR. BELL: I was wondering, firBt, based on your start this afternoon except for the one witness this morning, whether the intervenors could give us an idea of how many witnesses they do have and how much time, so that we could make our plans. THE COURT: Yes. Yes. I would like to hear their best estimate on that. MR. LEOHRRD: We have one witness whom we are going to attempt to clear so that he can get out of there this afternoon, as he has classes tomorrow. That is Dr. Garrett, who will be the next witness. Tomorrow morning we expect to use Dr. McGurk, probably for an hour and a half, to be followed by Dr. Van Den Haag of New York University, for I would say two and a half or three hours. We will have either Dr. George, who has been ill recently, if he can come, or, if not, we will ask to read his prior testimony. Dr. Hoy of the University of South Carolina — This will probably be not over a half an hour. We will follow that with Dr. Kuttner, about an hour and a half; and possibly Dr. Whitaker following that for about an hour. MR. BELL: I was just trying to figure out whether 277 that meant — MR. LEONARD: — Midday Friday, I would say. MR. BELL: We would say at this time we don't plan to either offer any rebuttal to this type of testimony or any cross examination, for the reasons that we have already indi cated, and I was wondering about making our plans for completing the case. And as a part of that, I am wondering, with the record growing by leaps and bounds, whether or not we could get some information from the court reporter as to his ability to get to work on this any time soon. If it seems that he is already piled up with other work, the plaintiffs would be prepared to bring in their own court reporter so as to assure that we would be able to have a record for the Court and for ourselves as early as possible. Ordinarily it wouldn't be a problem, but I imagine this testimony is going to fill quite a few volumes. (Off the record discussion) DR. HENRY' E. GARRETT, called as a witness and having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LEONARD, for Interveners: Q. Dr. uarrett, would you state your full name and your employment? A. Henry E, Garrett. Well, let's see. You want — ? Q. What is your present employment? A. Visiting professor of education sod psychology at the Ifaiveraity of Virginia. Q. What Is your previous academic employment? A. Professor of psychology at Columbia University for thirty years. Q, what was your position in the psychology department of Columbia? A. 1 was chairman for sixteen years. Q. What is your academic background in teams of degrees? A. Well, I have an AB and an KA, a PHD, and a DSC. Q. What vas the first doctorate in, Dr. Garrett? A* Psychology. MR. LEONARD: I would like to hand to the Court an outline of Dr. Garrett*s qualifications. Q. Are you a member of any professional associations? A. Yes. Shall I list them? Q. Just fcive us some, and any offices you have held in them. A, American Psychofcgtoal Association, past president; Eastern Psycho tgi cal Association, past president; Psychometric Society, patt president; Mew York State association of Psychology, past president; American Association for Advancement of Science, vice-president. Q. Have you published any aadeaic studies in your field? A. Quite . a few. I m author of eight books and fifty or so, I suppose, papers. Q. Are any of them general texts used in the field? A* Yes, I have a general text in psychology* and I have two books dealing with mental testing, Two were statistics} one was experimental, I show you a bibllogrejptfc Dr, Garrett, and ask if the publica tions listed there are your publications? A, These are a few of the ones that bear upon this particular topl*« Q* I®. IEGKAKD* I offer these in widens®, the bibliography of Dr. Henry £* Garrett. THE COURT: Let it be received, (Haas received in evidence and marked as Intervenor*a Exhibit Bo. 5) Q. Basically* what is your field of study? A. Experimental psychology and what is called differential psychology, which means the psychology of differences among people, <4. Are you familiar with the work that has been published in that field? A, I think so, Q, Does differential psychology involve itself only with differences in race, or any differences between any group or type? 279 A, Differences due to race* sex, practice, variations within the individual. All sorts of things. How do you determine these differences? A* Will# mostly by measurement using psychometric measures or tests 280 Q t What ape psychometric tests? A. Psychometric test is a problem of some sort or & series of items that are Intended, to measure some fairly definite trait or ability. Q, Is intelligence one of those abilities? A. Yea. Intelligence, of course, is so broadly used that you have to limit your definition when you are dealing with schools and with ability to do school work, and the intelligence tests as used in schools are designed to measure the ability to deal with ^pfeols, words, numbers, formulas, diagrams. Q, Hasn’t there been recently an attack upon Intelligence tests in a number of places? A. Well, there has been an attack on intelligence tests for the last 50 years. They case and go. Most of them don't under stand what the tests are supposed to do. Parents think if the child has a high academic potential that he should behave well, and mind his parents, and not get into troublej but the test, as I say to them sometimes, there are a good many people of hlgjh i intelligence who have been arrested for forgery and for various offenses, who are in prison, and that high academic or high potential for academic work does not necessarily mean that a person will be Intelligent in all, that he does, social behavior, Q. Well, are you saying that the so-called i rtelligenc© tests simply measure potential for study? A. Ho. I say the intelligence tests as used in the schools 281 mcaaure the potential for work In schools and for related •work in professions and business — lawyers, physicians, engineers, and so on, If they did not possess this same sort of intelligence would not be able to function* Q. In other words, this is essentially an ability, rather than something called general Intelligence? A. Veil, "general"is the wrong word* I don't know of any better word than "abstract intelligence•" I'd call it "symbolic intelligence,1 but that doesn't carry exactly what you mean* Q,. How, of the tests that measure this particular capability of study, have any been made in the field of races? A* Oh, yes, great numbers. Q,. na» thifl been done over ary period of time? A* Over the last 90 years. Q.* Are you familiar with some of the work In the field? A* I think 8 0* Q. Do you know of any compilations which have been made bringing thia material together? A« Veil, the work that Dr. Shuey published in 1958 brought up to that date «ii the work that had been done in the preceding 40 or 90 years* 240 studies* Q. And ere you familiar with the work of Dr. Shuey? A* Very familiar* Q* And what were her conclusions, based upon all of those tests? A* Veil, the general drift showed a considerable difference on all of the psychometric measurements» 'These were not all 282 Q. measure® of abstract ability. 'There were & number of performance nioasureraents too, but the Negro generally tested lower than the white, not only in childhood but in adulthood., and she measured soldiers, delinquents, criminals, and all these groups tested generally lower, the Negroes, than the whites. Nov, was this true in the North as well as in the South? Yea. Has It been true to the same degree as far as you know abroad as well as in this country? •Chere haven*t been so very many quantities of studies abroad, but those that I know about show this seme difference. Were you present this mooing during the testimony of Br* Osborne? Yes. Do you recall the differences to which Dr. Osborne testified 1 n the various cities? Yes, ■ ■ . Is that essentially in conformity with your knowledge of the past tests which have been made and reported on by J2r. Sbuey and others? I think so* Are you familiar with the Army alpha and beta test? A. Yes. Q* Would you tell us something about those? A. Well, the Ansy alpha was devised in 1917 and given to about two million soldiers. Hie beta was a non-language test given to about $00,000 who couldn't read or write, or do it very- well. And the test was used as a means mainly of classifi cation of men into various groups and selection for special sorts of services and training programs. How large a sample did they have? Two million. What were the results of those tests in terms of racial difference? Well, I don't think really the test was ever designed to measure racial difference. It was used for that purpose, and I believe it was a mistake, but it was so used. Hie Negroes did less well than the white soldiers on the test. There was a gap not only in the Army alpha, which was a verbal test to measure abstract ability at a fairly low level; but also on the beta test, which was a performance test involving no language, the gap was as large on one as it was on the other. Now, is this essentially what is known as and referred to as cultural and non-cultural, or verbal and non-verbal? Well, verbal and non-verbal is a little different than the other, I think. A non-verbal test would be one that does not involve words. Performances of some sort. For instance, typical would be putting blocks irfco holes, or building somewhat like a jigsaw puzzle, putting the pieces together, or counting with blocks, and things which involved very little, 284 if any, language, other than the Instructions. Q. Ih that connection, Dr. Garrett, has It ever been asserted that these results of these tests in World War I did not 'Vi., i . 1 - i ’ * ’4 Jt \ * * J J!1 f » v » C shew the differences which other tests have? A* Mall, that van done ~ ~ I ’m afraid that got into literature and was echoed over and over again. It was a ginalok, really, She four northern states in which the Negroes tested higher were compared with four southern states in which the whites ® tested lowest; in other words, It took the upper end of one curve and the lower end of another curve and ccaqpared the two, and it was largely a reflection of the differences in education level of the two parts of the country, I think. $he correlation of this Army alpha test with education was .70, which is quit© higi, meaning that the better educated Negroes did somewhat better — they didn’t do much, a point or so — Q but better than the 3m s well educated whites in Arkansas, Mississippi, Georgia, and Alabama. Q. Who raised that question? A. Well, It was brought up by equal!tartans, cultural anthro pologists, and was popularised by Kline berg and has appeared in the World War n , in a little pamphlet called RACES QJP MANKIND by two authors, Benedict and Welt fish, V* . b ' ( • ■ ‘ i f - y M g f j ̂ .* 3 a pamphlet which incited a lot of criticism and was finally withdrawn, 285 q . Have you seen the monograph by Dr. Kennedy and other® on the testing of Negro elementary school children in the Southeast? A. Yes, I have. Q,. . And did lyou hear Dr. Osborne testify about that this morning? —\ A. I did. Q. And are the results in that monograph essentially the same as the results you are referring to in Shuey’s study and others? A. Very close, in spite of the fact that the authors did their very level best to explain them away. Q,. Do you recall that in that connection we displayed to Dr. Osborne a graph shewing a measure of the Negro student figures against a normal curve? A. Q. A. Yes. And at that time we discussed the question of the shape of the Negro curve. Is there any comment you could make on that? Well, the curve Is not a truly normal curve. What is called the standard deviation or the spread of the curve is four points less than it was in the white curve, and that accounts for that bunching together and peakedness In the curve. It*s a fancy-named thing called ’’leptokurtio. When a curve Is peaked up, when there’s too little variability in It.— And here, it seems to me it showed a lack of range or spread in the Negro group. Ciat’s been found before though. In other words, you are saying that they tend to pack up more 286 than usual? A. Pack up around the typical measure, yes. Q. Do you recall the testimony this morning and in the Kennedy report to which we referred, about the different results on different subject matters, scholastic matters? A. Yes. Q. Is this also typical of the general testing in this field? A. Yes. Q» And do you recall the differences which occurred in terms of rate of learning, a change of rate of learning over the period of the school years? A. Against the ages? Q. Against ages. A. Yes, indeed. Q. And is that typical of the general results in the field? A. That is typical* Q. And en each of these three differences, the absolute difference which is measured in something like the Army alpha, the rate difference which we just discussed and the subject difference, are these pert of a pattern, so that if you match for one you have matched for the others? Or do they independently vary? A. I think it is a pattern. It shows much the same trend throughout. Q* Do you recall Dr. Osborne’s testimony about the matched group? A. Yes. 287 Q,. And that having matched for actual mental ability, there vas a rate change thereafter? A. Right. Q. Zs that normal? Well, that is perfectly possible, because the matching which he did was in terms of a rather general index, and there*s a good deal of variability within any person’s abilities or aptitudes. As a matter of fact, within the individual, his aptitudes will vary about 75 percent as much as any aptitude will vary in the population) so there is a lot of variability there. How, what Dr. Osborne’s results showed was that despite these matched groups, there was a fall-off in the Negro performance with age, which is entirely possible. For example, one person might get a good score on the mental teat because he does well in numbers, and another one because he does well with words. Well, if he does better on one than on the other, that will show up when you measure that specific aptitude. Also, there was a fall with mental age as they went on. It’s no doubt true that those groups lost altitude. Q. Do I understand then that this pattern you refer to is one which can’t be measured by any single unit? A, I don’t think so, no. Q. In other words, merely matching children on the basis of an IQ test or something like that doesn’t mean you have two children who will respond the same? 288 A, No. It does not at all. Thej may do roughly the same sort of work, but not the same work, by any means. Q. What Is the cause of these differences, as far as you know? A. Well, of course, two primary causes are the heredity inherent in the child and the environmental pressures — the school, the coBimmity, and the church, the movies, the television, and all the rest of the influences that bear upon him. Q.. Is there any way of determining how much each of these two factors plays? A. You can only do it statistically so as to draw a general conclusion which might not be strictly true in a given case. A favorite way has been to use twins. Identical tvias are not only b o m at the same time, but they are also of the s l e sex and they have Identical heredity, coming from the double fertilisation of one ovary. Fraternal twins are brothers and sisters who are born together, but they are not, except for the fa ct that they are the same age, they are as different as any children within a family can be. And what's done here, as the geneticists have worked this out, you get a rela tionship among these fraternal twins and among the identical twins, and then you put it into what's called a heredlbility index to find out how much of a difference is among your fraternal, because theoretically all of the likeness in the identicals la hereditary} they have exactly the same heredity. You find how much of the difference — or the likeness} you can take It either way — of the fraternal is due to inheritance, 269 and how ranch to environment • d. DO they ever study twins, Identical twins, who ape raised under different environments* A* Y©b . that’s been done too, identical twins raised within the same home, sod raised apart* Q. What is the purpose of such a study* A. To see how mich the environment can do. ft. You a w saying that If thay a w wised in the same eiwiroment they will be close together, and If they are raised In different environments they — A, Theoretically, you would expect children raised in the same home, if they’re identical twins, to be more nearly iglk» than identical twins who are reared in different parts of the country or in different families. Q,. Are they* A. Yes. Those who are reared together vary on the average of about five points, one ftfom the other. Unrelated children will vary fifteen points. Children, twins, who are reared apart in different circumstances will differ about eight points. And so environment, apparently, is able to raise the five to eight) that’s all it can do. q . Are there any other studies which are made to determine this type of causation? Can you equate environmental factors la children and then study it? A* You really can’t, and it’s been done with rats because you can control rats, and you can get a whole series of generations, and in one of the best studies I know of, that in which seven generations of rats were bred, bright rats and dull rats. They separated them into two species, actually by breeding the bright rats inter se, among themselves, and the dull ones; and the result was that they had two separate species. A. Up to the fifth generation. After the fifth generation there was no further separation. But they had what really amounted, to these experimenters, to two species of rats, bright rats and dull rats. And it was all due to heredity. Environment was exactly the same. Q. In other words, the mentality of the rats proved to be heritable? A. Heritable and extremely effective, in separating. MR. BELL: May I suggest we have a continuing objection, Your Honor. I'm having a little difficulty connecting the rats and the school cases we are trying. Could we ask that counsel explain? MR. LEONARD: I'd be very happy to explain. Your Honor, we're concerned with the fact that there is no serious dispute whatever — in fact, there isn't any factual as well as legal dispute from plaintiffs — that enormous differences in educability exist between the white and Negro students in the Jackson schools; in fact, between white and Negro students in any schools. Now, if this is the fault of the schools, If a change in the school environment, the teachers or something else, can cure or close this gap, then since we are here equally before this Court they are entitled to ask for the kind of relief that will close it because no one denies that these children have equal rights to the best possible education for themselves. Therefore, ’What we are trying to show now is that these differences do not result from the Bchool, they d© not result from the social pattern which exists in the State of Mississippi or any other state* but fundamentally these differences we are discussing, the ones which we have shown on these charts, are differences which are Inate in the individual and the the amount of change which can be made by changing either the curricula of the school or the neighborhood is so minute that separate education is the only education which is going to take car© of the differences, because you can't change them back. In other words, I am now trying to show that these differences are heritable) they are not caused by the schools or by the homes. THE COURT j I am going to overrule the objection and let the testimony go in. I think the objection goes to the weight more than it does to admiadbility. If it has no weight, has no relevancy, certainly it will be disregarded) but at this stage ) >. proceedings* I can't tell what weight or what competency it is entitled to. So I overrule the objection and will let the testimony go in. 291 292 (Mr. Leonard continues*^ Q« Dr*. Garrett, is there a teat known as the S.P.8.S.I.? A. Shat Is a society* It ia what? A. It is a society, not a test, Q* What is the society? A* The Society for Psychological Study of Social Issues, Q. I see. Do you know of any studies which it has made in an effort to equate social and environmental factors being involved in racial differences? A, Well, the president of that society wrote a paper in which he said that it was well known from many studies that when the environment of Negro and white children was made more nearly identical that they drew closer and closer together. I answer* j that by assembling the many studies,which were altogether six, in literature in which a really serious <*t tempt had been made to equate the environment, and I found that the drawing together wasn’t there, that they 6rew together in some instances & little bit more in random groups, but that the effect was negligible. I concluded the paper by saying that instead of the evidence being overwhelming, there wasn’t any. you <4. I s W a h a t purports to be a pamphlet, "The 3.P.S.3.I. and Racial Differences," by Henry E. Garrett, and ask If that Is