Attorney Notes 4
Working File
January 1, 1979 - January 1, 1979
Cite this item
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Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Clark v. Little Rock Board of Education Joint Appendix Volume II, 1970. 8e7ab8a4-ad9a-ee11-be37-00224827e97b. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/1a037a14-ac2b-4e0d-80bf-6bd8e365e108/clark-v-little-rock-board-of-education-joint-appendix-volume-ii. Accessed August 19, 2025.
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Ittifrii dktwi rtf Appeals
.Foe t h e E ig h t h C ir c u it
No. 19795
D e l o r e s C l a r k , et al.,
vs.
Appellants ,
T h e B oard of E du catio n of t h e
L it t l e B ock S ch o o l D is t r ic t , et al.
No. 19810
D elo k e s Cl a r k , et al.,
vs.
Appellees,
T h e B oard of E ducatio n of t h e
L it t l e B ook S ch ool D ist r ic t , et al.
N a p p e a l s from t h e u n it e d st a t e s d ist r ic t court fo r t h e
E A ST E R N D IST R IC T OF A R K A N SA S
JOINT APPENDIX
VOLUME II — Pages 4 0 9 -9 2 7
H e r s c h e l H . F riday
B o bert Y . L ig h t
1100 Boyle Building
Little Bock, Arkansas 72201
J o h n W . W a l k e r
B u r l C. B o t en b b r r y
1820 West 13th Street
Little Bock, Arkansas 72202
Gross - $ [ t t l l A * h
J a c k G r een ber g
J a m b s M. N a b r it , III
N orman J . C h a o h k in
10 Columbus Circle
New York, New York 10019
Attorneys for Appellants
I N D E X
Page
Docket Entries ............... ................... .............. la
Motion for Further Relief ................................ . 5a
Answer of Defendants to Motion for Further Relief .......... . l6a
Motion to Intervene as Parties-Plaintiff ..................... 24a
Complaint of Plaintiffs-Intervenors ....................... 2?a
Letter of District Court Dated July 18,-1968 ...... ......... 32a
Order Permitting Intervention ................................ 33a
Answer to Complaint of Plaintiffs~Intervenors ............ . 34a
Transcript of Proceedings August 15-16, 1968 ................ 38a
Response to Motion of McDonald Applicants for Intervention .. 408a
Order Denying Leave to Intervene McDonald, et al............ 408c
Report and Motion ............................................. 408d
Transcript of Proceedings December 19, 20 and 24, 1968 ..... 409
Memorandum Opinion ............................................. 891
Decree - .................. ......... ..................... ........ 922
Notice of Appeal ................................................ 924
Notice of Appeal .................................... 925
Notice of Cross-Appeal ........................................ 926
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
SCRIPT OP PROCEEDINGS DECEMBER 19, 20 AND 24, I960 409
DELORES CLARK, et al, :
Plaintiffs, :
v.
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE LITTLE
ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, et al,
Defendants.
No. LR-64-C-155
x
U. S. Post Office and Courthouse
Little Rock, Arkansas
Thursday, December 19, 1968
BE IT REMEMBERED, That the above-entitled matter
was continued after adjournment from August 20, 1968, before
The Honorable GORDON E. YOUNG, United States District Judge,
commencing at 9:30 o'clock, a.an
APPEARANCES:
On behalf of plaintiffs:
JOHN W. WALKER, Esq., and
BURL C. ROTENBERRY, Esq., of
Walker & Rotenberry,
1820 West Thirteenth Street,
Little Rock, Arkansas; and
JOHN P. SIZEMORE, Esq., and
PHILLIP KAPLAN, Esq., of
McMath, Leatherman, Woods & Youngdahl,
711 West Third Street,
Little Rock, Arkansas.
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410
On behalf of defendants:
HERSCHEL 11. FRIDAY, JR., Esq., ROBERT V. LIGHT, Esq
and JOE D „ BELL, Esq., of
Smith, Williams, Friday & Bowen,
Boyle Building,
Little Rock, Arkansas.
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411
C O N T E N T S
THE WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT
Floyd VI. Parsons 413
AFTERNOON SESSION - 490
Floyd W. Parsons - Resumed
Dr. E. C. Stimbert 559
Defendant’s Exhibits:
Nos. 20 and 21
No. 22
No. 23
No. 24
No. 25
No. 26
No. 27
Plaintiff's Exhibit:
No. 2
598 622
EXHIBITS
For Identification. In
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431
432
447
454
459
462
527
RECROSS
462
491
623
Evidence
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432
432
455
459
462
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t h e COURT: Gentlemen, we -will resume this morn ins,
the hearing or trial in the case of Delores Clark versus the
Little Rock School Board, lie had two days of hearing -ugust:
15th and 16th of this year and we adjourned the trial until
today.
I believe In. our discussions in chambers a few
days ago— Hr. Friday wasn't present but Mr. Light was, Hr,
Walker — it was considered the best procedure for the witness
for the School Board to testify affirmatively on the different
or perhaps a general description also of the differences in
the new plan presented for the Court's consideration between
the date of the last hearing and today.
I realize technically that Dr. Goldhanxser was on
the stand and when we concluded our hearing on ugust 16th,
his direct examination had not been concluded and, of course,
therehad been no cross examination but I believe that is the
understanding of how we were to proceed today.
Is that your understanding, gentlemen:
MR. LIGHT: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: The defendants may call their first
witness.
MR. FRIDAY: Mr. Parsons.
THE COURT: Let me say this: there are some
people In the courtroom and out of courtesy towards them, let'
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try to speak loud enough the witnesses and attorneys C3n be
heard.
Mr. Walker, I see counsel who represented some of
the proposed interventions which I denied. Do you v;ish to
make them counsel for certain persons?
MR. WALKER: Yes, Your Honor. Mr. Kaplan and Mr.
Sizemore assisted Mr. Rotenberry and me in the representation
A13
of the plaintiffs and in the interveners already in the action
THE COURT: All right. Let the record show.
MR. FRIDAY Your Honor, while we go ahead Mr.
Bell, with the permission of the Court, xcill go ahead and set
up our stand and put the map on it and we'll get to it in a
moment.
THE COURT: All right.
Thereupon,
FLOYD W. PARSONS
having been called for examination by counsel for defendants,
and having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testi
fied further as follows:
BY MR. FRIDAY:
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Q State your name, please.
A Floyd Parsons.
0 You are the Mr. Parsons who is Superintendent of
Schools of the Little Rock S-. hool District and who has already
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testified in this proceeding in August, 1968; is that correct
A That is correct.
Q Mr. Parsons, we want to pick up with events that
have transpired that were not covered in the testimony in the
August proceeding in this trial, and primarily we*11 try to
stay away from any repitition of what has already been test if
to.
Hot? prefaced with that, can you state whether or
not you have given consideration to various alternatives to
the present freedom of choice desegregation procedure being
followed by the Little Rock School District*?
A Yes, vie have.
Q And when I said "you" and you say fW " , who are
you talking about?
A I'm talking about the staff members of the Little
Rock Public School System, as well as the Board of Directors.
Q Will you state what alternatives were considered?
A Mr. Friday, I think I could say that we considered
all of the alternatives, all of the suggestions, all ox the
thoughts that vie have had concerning methods whereby this
particular problem could be solved.
I refer specifically to the Oregon Report, tha
report that was tabbed the Parsons Plan, the plan that was
submitted by two of our Board members, Mr. Meeks and Mr. Woods
the plan submitted by Mr. Walker I'm talking about ranges
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311 the way from the educational park concept to school pairhj;
to toning, et cetera,
Q All right. How, let me ask you what I'll call a
preliminary question and then we will go hack to this.
What type plan did you end up with, Fa*. Parsons,
that was approved by the Board and submitted to the Court?
A A plan of geographic zoning.
Q Okay.
Now, what led you to abandon, the other proposals
or plans that were considered by you, and specifically the
Oregon and or Parsons Plan approach to desegregation.
A The Oregon Plan, of course, required for its
implementation — not all of it related directly to the Oregcr
Plan, but required some $10 million. The Parsons Plan in
excess of $3 million. Consequently, I would say that money
was involved, of course, in eliminating these plans from
serious consideration.
There are other reasons, too, if you would like
me to name them.
Q You go ahead and elaborate any other reasons you
considered In reaching the conclusion not to submit those as
suitable alternatives.
A We'll have to separate the Oregon Plan from the
Parsons Plan, lihen 1 make this statement we did not consider
the Oregon Plan in every detail to be an educationally sound
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plan.
Q For the record, the Oregon Plan, is in evidence in
this proceeding.
A Ye s , it is.
Q All right. Go ahead.
A And ce certainly feel that any plan that is
developed for the young people of this community shouldbe
sound educationally, and there are difficulties involved in
certain consi.derati.cns that we made of various types oi plans
that would have been extremely difficult to administer in a
fair and impartial manner for the young people of our community
Q Mr. Parsons, you already have in evidence and I
won't ask you to itemize your specific objections to the Oregcr
plan. We put them in and you filed them at the time it was
submitted back there.
Were there any additional considerations when you
looked at this again since August that led you not to recotamer c
it at this time?
A The only additional consideration that 1 know of
would be that this community has -- since the inception of the
Oregon Plan turned down a proposed mil!age Increase and
bond issue, not in relationship to the Oregon Plan but in
relationship to the Parsons Plan.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I think -- if I understate
this correctly, Mr. Walker, you have no objections to us
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Introducing what is available which is a nevrrpaper report of
the results of the election that involved the Oregon Plan,
and 1*11 show you whet I have in mind.
MR. WALKER: We have no objections, Your Honor.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, ny records reflect that
we were up to Exhibit — this is Exhibit 20.
THE COURT: It will be received as Defendants'
Exhibit Ho. 2x0.
(Whereupon, the document heretofore referr
to was marked as Defendants' Exhibit Ho. 2
for identification, and was received in
evidence.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q How, Mr. Parsons, I hand you Defendants* Exhibit
Ho. 20 which purports to he a breakdown by precincts of the
school election just referred to by you, and ask you how you
relate what this exhibit reflects to the voters acting on the
Oregon Plan. Do you understand what I'm asking?
THE COURT: In other words, this tabulation appear
to be a vote on candidates for the School District.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Is that right? How do you relate that to the
Oregon Plan?
A Well I would relate it in this manner, that those
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Individuals — at least one of those individual who was a
vocal supporter of the Oregon Plan was defeated in the School
Board election.
Q That Individual was —
A Hr. Coates.
Q Right. Actually, what was the result --
THE COURT: Do you make a distinction between the.
Oregon Plan and the Parsons Plan?
HR. FRIDAY: Yes I do, Your Honor, and I'll have
another exhibit on that.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q What was the result of the vote on the two incumbo
board members who were up for re-election?
A Both were defeated.
Q What was the result of the vote on the millage
proposal on the same ballot?
A It was passed.
Q Do you remember what the millage was, Mr. Parsons'1
A Well, if 1 remember correctly -- and I haven’t
examined this — but If I remember correctly the millage
proposal was the same but there was a bond issue in connection^
with the election that was passed.
THE COURT: That was additional millage or bond
issue?
THE WITNESS: No, sir, the millage proposal was
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merely to continue the same mlljLage, but there was xatituoe
that permitted the issuance of bonds.
THE COURT: Actually they couldn’t have lowered
it, could they, Mr. Parsons?
THE WITNESS: Wo, but they could have refused the
bonds.-- the issuance of the bonds.
THE COURT: These were additional bonds that were
to be --
THE WITNESS: Covered by existing aillage.
THE COURT: I see.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right. Let’s move to the Parsons Plan, Mr.
Parsons. Is the Parsons Plan in evidence in this proceeding?
A Yes, it is.
Q All right. Did the Parsons Plan as such, either
directly or indirectly, get submitted to a vote of the people5
A More directly than did the Oregon Plan.
MR. FRIDAY: We offer, Your Honor, a similar aecoua
of the results of this election as Defendants* Exhibit No. 21
without objection from Mr. Walker.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(Whereupon, the document heretofore referred
to was marked as Defendants’ Exhibit No. 21
for identification, and was received in
evidence.)
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BY MH. FRIDAY: ^ >
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Q Hr. Parsone, X have handed you Defendants' Exhibit
i
Ho. 21. Would you state ior the record what it reflects con
cerning the vote on the issue submitted to the electorate at
that time?
A Well there were two school board positions that
were filled and a vote on the proposed rail lag e and bond issue
for the Little Rock schools.
Q Well to expedite, there is no dispute, the two
incumbents who supported the plan were defeated and the bond
issue in support of the plan was defeated; is that correct*
A Ahat is corrects yes, sir.
Q For the record, this election was in March, 1961?
A Right.
Q All right. X take it you have testified and again
we need just a moment to expedite — you abandoned further
consideration of the Parsons Plan at this time; is that correc
A Yes, we did.
Q Are there any other considerations other than thc-j
you have .already testified to concerning your decision not to
submit the Parsons Plan or a variation at this time? Arc
there any other considerations?
A Other than the three considerations I mentrones,
administration and dollars involved as well as being educa
tionally sound? Are those the considerations you are referri
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to?
Q How about community support?
A Well, of course, community support is always a
requirement before you can initiate a change in a school pro
gram .
Q Are there aspects of community support other than
dollars that are important to an educational program?
A Oh, yes,
Q WhatY
A Well, I think it's evident that dollars alone
would not build a good school system. There must be a morale
and a feeling of interest and an allegiance to the school pro
gram and the schools located in individual school communities
in order to develop an effective program foryoung people.
Q You testified you considered a plan submitted by
Mr. John Walker.
A Yes, we did.
Q I do not believe I have that plan as such in
evidence, so briefly will you state for the record what the
Walker Plan or what the plan proposed by Mr. Walker was?
THE COOTTiM Y o u might identify Mr. Walker a little
further.
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, sir. Mr. Walker is counsel for
the plaintiffs in this proceeding, yes, sir.
Your Honor, I stand corrected. The plan is in
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evidence,
THE COURT: I think Dr. CoIdhammer discussed it.
HR. FRIDAY; The plan is in evidence.
BY HR. FRIDAY:
Q Let’s proceed on the basis it is in evidence,
but again briefly what was the Walker Plan ~~ just briefly,
Mr. Parsonsv
A Mr. Walker’s plan was basically a combination of
the Oregon Report and the report we made from the adminlstratL
of the school system, with one primary departure. That depar
ture had to do with a rotating of six, I believe, areas and
two high schools that were to bo two-year high schools,
eleventh and twelfth grade high schools, Hall High and Mann
High, with six geographic areas rotating in and out of these
schools.
Q Well, be a little more specific on rotating areas
Take a student who is in Mann High School at a certain point,
what happens to that student during his high school career?
A He could remain in Mann High according to this
report or he could rotate out, depending upon when he enrolled
in terms of that particular area's time to remain where it was
or be shifted to another section -- another high school.
Q Well suppose he was in any of them. Take Hall-
High School in. the tenth grade, Under Mr. Walker’s proposal.
What would happen to that student during his high school careri
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A Well they would not have been there, Mr. Friday,
in the tenth grade because this was an eleventh and twelfth
grade school.
Q You are correct. I want to get in the record what
happens on the rotation.
A On the rotation the individual could remain in the
school through the eleventh and twelfth grades, but: one-third
if I interpret the plan correctly, being purely geographic —
one-third of the students would rotate out every year and they
would be assigned on a purely geographic basis. Consequently
it would be possible for an individual to take his eleventh
grade work in Mann High School and be in Hall High School for
the twelfth grade and thus graduate from Hall High School and
viea versa.
Q All right. Is there any other explanation you
want to make of what I'm calling the Walker Plan?
A I think that is sufficient.
Q Why did you find it objectionable to the point
you did not recommend it, Mr. Parsons?
A Without listing these in any priority, the cost
involved in transporting pupils --
Q Can you give us v.n approximation of what you are
talking about?
A Between 5 hundred thousand and $6 hundred thousanc
annually would be required for the transportation of pupils.
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Q Go ahead.
A The fact that in our judgment the plan was
educationally unsound in that there are many reasons why pupil,
should have some continuity in their high school education,
disregarding the importance of continuity within the courses
they take which is evident, There should be continuity in
their co-curricular and extra-curricular activities. I am
talking about such things as reporter on the school newspaper,
editor of the high school annual, quarterback on the football
team, first tenor in the school choir, and flute player in the
band. There would be no continuity developed.
There would be a loss, we think, of parrent
allegiance and community understanding and rapport in. relation
ship to this particular school, knowing that * W are here for
a year or two after which this section of the community would
be rotated out and we would have to shift our allegiance to
another school in the system*'.
The pairing concept as delineated in Mr. Walker’s
plan in many instances die? not take into consideration geo
graphic proximity.
THE COURT: Is that of the grammar school?
THE WITNESS: Yes, the elementary schools. A
school fartherest to the west was suggested for pairing with
schools farthereat to the vast, which would have created the
same problem in parental understanding and parental support
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for the school that I have previously identified.
THE COURT: How far are those two schools apart,
Mr. Parsons?
THE WITNESS: Oh, eight miles.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Can you identify the two schools, Mr. Parsons?
A I believe the suggestion was made* for example,
that Meadcwcliff would be paired with Granite Mountain. I'm
not real sure of this * but the plan is an exhibit with the C m
Q Any other reasons considered by you in your dec is:
not to recommend?
A I think any other reasons I might give would be
somewhat repetitious of those I have already given. I would
say, however, that the amount of money that would have been
required in terms of transportation could have been used or
could be used, if indeed we had it, could be used very effect:
in the implementat Ion of other educational programs within th«
system.
Q You mentioned a proposal submitted by two board
members, Mr. Meeks and Mr. Woods, What was that proposal?
A This proposal was basically the establishment of
school rones, but the resevation of space in those schools
that had not experienced what would be called adequate or
sufficient integration at the secondary level.
THE COURT; You mean buffer areas?
425
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THE WITNESS: No, there were really no buffer rone
This was the creation of actual attendance rones and then,
for example, in Hall High School whore there are no Negro
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residents to speak of, a reservation of ten percent of the
available seats in Hall High would have bean reserved for Negt
children to transfer under freed or. of choice under a limit!
freedom of choice into this particular school,
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q You, of course, considered this and your testimony
is yen did not recommend it. Would you state why you did not
recommend it?
A We did not recommend this as a plan for two or
three reasons.
One, we felt that In the first piece -- and I'm
not naming these in any priority — but. in the first place
it would be extreme!y difficult to administer in a fair and
an impartial manner the determination, in the event that morej
than ten percent of children requested permission to attend
Hall High since we are using that as an example, the difficult;
that we could well experience of determining which ones of ths
children who had requested permission to attend Hall, would bi
eligible under this plan, would be extremely difficult.
THE COURT: Would that ten percent be planned for
transfer from other children only or white and colored?
THE WITNESS: It vjeuid be Negro children only.
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If it were done on a geographical basis., it's
entirely possible that when the limitation had been reached
and we could only take one more student to fall within the
ten percent, that several other students could make appliestic
that lived on the same street. This is the type of thing I'm
talking about when 1 say it would be difficult to administer
fairly and Imparttally.
We saw nothing sacred about ten percent. It coulc
have been five percent or it would have been twenty percent
or it could have been thirty percent. There was nothing real!
sacred about the figure of ten percent and this concerned us.
BY HR. FRIDAY:
Q The position was to be filled by what method, at
least up until you got the ten percent? By what method?
THE COURT: Freedom of choice.
THE WITNESS: Freedom of choice and I believe thif
Court has rules, if I remember correctly, that we are to
eliminate freedom of choice.
BY HR. FRIDAY:
Q But at any rate it embodied freedom of choice to
a limited class; is that correct?
A Yes. I ’d like to point out in this connection
that when we talk about administering it in a fair and impart
manner, that depending on where a pupil lived he w^ould have
three choices of a high school in this district. He could go
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shall I say, to Central or Hall or Metropolitan. Whereas if
a pupil happened to live one block in some other area, just
one block removed from this pupil, he would have only two choi
He would have to go either to Mann or Metropolitan. So depend
on where an individual lived, certain special consideration
would be given to that particular child and we do not think
this is fair and impartial.
Q All right now, Mr. Parsons, have we missed any
considerations? Did you consider an educational park concept
or did you feel you. did that with the Oregon Report?
A We feel we considered the educational park concept
la connection with the Oregon Report. Again, it would involve
tremendous sums of money to implement it.
Q Will you state to the Court what consideration you
have given at the staff level in an effort to develop any othe:
variations to what you. have already testified to?
A Subsequent to the directive by our Board of
Directors to develop a plan to be submitted to the Court, I
called a meeting of our Assistant Superintendent and Deputy
Superintendent and said to this group of five individuals,
UX would like for you to spend a week as a minimum just think!s
about the type of plan that this District could come up with
that would implement the process of desegregation in this
District and would, at the same time, be educationally sound
and would, at the same time, not require the expenditure of
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funds which we do not have". And several suggestions were
submitted to me at the conclusion of this week or ten days.
We reviewed all of these suggestions, but unfortunately most
of the suggestions that were made did involve dollars because
it is extremely difficult to make major changes in a school
system without additional dollars. But we discussed together
all of the ideas that came out of this request.
Q Mr. Parsons, have we missed anything? How about
feeder systems? This has been suggested at times -«
THE COURT: I'm not sure I understand that exactly
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right. What is a feeder system, Mr. Parsons.'
A A feeder system is a system whereby there will be
four elementary school schools continuous to each other. The:
four elementary schools, the outer limits of the boundaries or
these four elementary schools, would consitute ajunior high
school district whose lines would be coterminous with the
extensive boundaries of the four elementary schools. Then
there would be another junior high school contiguous to this
one that encompassed four elementary school cones.
And it goes without saying it would not have to
be four, of course. I'm using this as an example. Then there
would be a senior high school district that would encompass
the total area within the two junior high school district and
the lines of the senior high school district would be cotermir;
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with, the joint lines of the two junior high school districts,
who la turn would encompass four elementary school districts
each. This is a feeder system,
Q Could there be variations of this Lthout lines?
Could you just designate higher level schools and then desig
nate the lower level schools to feed into it?
A I thought you were referring to & zoning; plan.
Of course, there could, yes. This could be dorse without line;1
entirely, if you merely designated every student to attend
this elementary school must go to this junior high school; eve
pupil that attends this junior high school must go to this
senior high school.
0 Based on your consideration of it, ether than what:
w e *11 cover with the zoning proposal, did you come up with a
conclusion as to whether a feeder system, apart from that,
would be a feasible alternative at this time? Do you under
stand what I ha asking you?
A The entire ‘Little Rock Public School System could
not, in our judgment, be organized on a feeder system. There
are certain areas of the City School District that can be
organized on a feeder system.
Q All right. I ’m going to ask you this, Hr. Parsons
Based on all of your testimony at the earlier hearing and
here, bated on your qualifications that are in the record,
based upon your specific knowledge and experience as to the
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Little Rock School District, do you have an expert opinion as
to the only feasible alternative or a desegregation proposal
to the present freed ova of choice procedure.'1 First, do you .i-i\
the opinion.'
A Yes, I do.
q What Is it?
A The opinion is that geographic attendance zones,
as we have submitted to the Court, is the only alternative,
taking Into consideration the other conditions that do exist ii
this District.
Q All right. Now let's tarn to the zoning proposal
that has been submitted to the Court. I ask you to look to
your left and see if you can identify what's before you.
TEE COURT I Is that identified by a number?
MR. FRIDAY: I'll mark it now. We will mark this
for identification as Defendants' Exhibit No. 22.
(Whereupon, the document heretofore referred
to was marked as Defendants' Exhibit Mo, 22
for identification.)
You refer now to Defendants’ Exhibit No. 22 and
will you identify it, please;
A Defendants' Exhibit No. 22 is a trap showing high
schools, junior high schools and elementary attendance zones
that we propose in this hearing today.
MR, FRIDAY"; I ’m going to mark for identification
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D e f e n d a n t ? 1' E x h i b i t No. 2 3 , t h e r e s o l u t i o n f e t a c c o m p a n i e s
t i i i p map. Kr. W a l k e r, i f you h a v e n o o b j e c t i o n s I m g o i n g
t o offer i n D e f e n d a n t s * E x h i b i t N o . 22 a n d No. 2 r .
I do now formally offer these, Your Honor.
THE COURT: T h e y will b e r e c e i v e d .
(Whereupon, the document heretofore marked
for identification as Defendants' Exhibit
No. 22 was received in evidence; and the
document heretofore referred to was marked
Defendants* Exhibit Ho. 23 for identificatio
and was received in. evidence.)
BY HR. FRIDAY:
Q All right now, Hr. Parsons, let’s look at Defendan
Exhibit Ho. 23. Will you summarize the desegregation plan
that has been approved by the Board and is submitted to the
Court for consideration and defendants request for approval
in this procedure! Summarize it, please.
A There are two areas covered in the plan. The
first area has to do with faculty desegregation. It is pro
posed that teachers for the 1969-70 school year will oe ass ins;
and re-assigned to achieve the following:
In the first place, the number of Negro teachers
within each school of the District will range from a minimum
of fifteen percent to a maximum of 45 percent on each led ivies:
school campus, while the number of white teachers within the
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system of the District within each school in the District will
range from a minimum of 55 percent to a maximum of 85 percent.
TIBS COURT: What is the ratio of the two groups
of teachers to each other?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor» are you taking about the
grand total?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: About 28 or 29 percent of the total
faculty is Negro.
THE COURT: All right,
MR. FRIDAY:
Q I'm going t© cose back with detailed questioning
on faculty, but would you pass on?
A All right.
Q Pass on to students.
A Then the Little Rock School District will be divic
into geographic attendance zones as per the map that is dis
played here, both elementary, junior high school and senior
high school,
Q "As per the map here/' Is that Defendants' Exhibit
No. 22?
A Yes, No. 22, And all students residing in these
designated rones would attend the appropriate school in that
zone, but we did establish certain, exceptions.
We have a Metropolitan Vocational Technical High
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School chat serves students over the entire District and the
students would indicate their desire to attend this vocations.,
technical high school and tests would be administered to
determine their vocational and technical aptitude for adraissio
to this particular school,
A second exception would be that since, according
to this plan* there would be a decided increase m faculty
desegregation that all teachers who desire to do so may enrol.,
their children in the school or in the schools where those
teachers are assigned to teach.
A third exception ~~
Q Why did you do that? Let me interrupt a moment.
A We did this in the first place because we felt
that since there will be a decided increase in faculty deseg
regation and since it is entirely possible, according to this
zone, that there could remain certain all-white or certain all
Negro schools in the system, that this would tend to eliminate
any all-white or all-Megro schools.
It at least would raalce it possible for their
elimination since a school that has been classified as all-Neg
and assuming the geographic zone that supported that school wa
made up only of Negro residents, assuming further that 55 pere
of the faculty of that school according to this plan would be
white, surely some of the white teachers would desire to take
their children with them to the particular school as they go
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to teach. The same would be true for the schools in the
western part of the city that is largely the white areas of
the city.Since a minimum of fifteen percent of that faculty
would be Negro surely some of those faculty members would
take their children with them.
Q Is there any convenience to the teacher involved?
A That's the second point 1 was going to make.
Surely there is a convenience.
Q Would that assist you in assigning teachers?
A If would not only assist us in assigning teachers
but it would assist us in recruiting teachers.
Q To ahead. I interrupted you.
A Then all students who are presently in the eighth
grade at the junior high school level and all students who
are presently in the tenth and eleventh grades at the senior
high school level would be given a choice to either attend the
appropriate school in the zone where the residence of that
pupil is located or to continue to attend that school where
they are currently enrolled.
Q M l right. Now, let’s get specific sad I v?ant
you to explain why you did that educatic ally. Take, for
example, the student — and it would work either way — who
is in the Horace Harm zone but who is already in Central High
School or any converse situation. Why would it be important
to let them go to their zone at these grade levels or stay
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where they are?
A We feel that a high school program as presently
conceived is something more than purely an academic program,
as we have stated previously.
The pupil who has related himself to co-curricula::
and extra-curricular activities -- the eleventh grade students
for examples have probably already ordered their invitations
and rings for their senior year. There are pupils in the
tenth grade at the present time who have been elected to the
pep clubs and are playing in the band and participating in
athletics and they have related themselves to many activities
and we feel that those pupils have a. preemptive right to
complete that school if they desire to do so as seniors and
graduate from the school where they have initiated their
educational program.
We feel that at: the junior high school level, the
seventh grade students has related himself somewhat to the
school, but he has not related himself quite as effectively
as has the eighth grade student. Consequently, we feel that
the eight grade student, at the junior high school level, shot!
be permitted to finish the ninth grade at that junior high
school.
Q All right. Now as I say I ’m going to come back
to the faculty, but I want you no../ to refer to Defendants’
E hibit Kg . 22 and 1 want you to explain the exhibit as to
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what it does, what considerations are involved in the exhibit
A Exhibit 22 shows elementary, junior high school
and senior high school non-overlapping compulsory attendance
zones with the exceptions as previously mentioned.
Q All right. How does it show them? How are they
indicated so anyone looking at it can read it and tell at
any level in which rone he or she is situated?
A The high school zones are identified by color,
the Parkview zone being green and to fay left; the Hall High
School zone being a light brown or orange and to the north or
top of the map at least; the Central High School zone being
red or pink and in the central city; the Mann High School
zone being blue.
The junior high school zones are identified by
rather heavy orange lines, while the elementary zones being
designated by black lines, much narrower than the orange line-
Q All right. State to the Court how you arrived at
these particular zoa.es and such considerations as you feel wer
relevant to the conclusion reached that this in the zoning
proposal that should be made,
A These zones were arrived at through the process of
identifying both white and Negro students by the process of us:
spot maps in the entire District, and in an effort to make the
most efficient use of existing physical facilities and also
in an effort to get a a much desegregation as we possibly eoulc.
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these lines were drawn. ^
There was, of course, the consideration of trans
portation involved in this. We were careful not to draw lines
that would deliberately create an inconvenience for students
in terras of distances these students would be from the school:;
located in the zone of residence.
Q Mr. Parsons, I apologize. I missed the last
statement. Would you repeat it for me, please?
A I stated that there was an effort made not to
draw zones that would create inconvenience for students in
terms of distance as students would reside from the schools
offering the grades that the students were to enroll in.
Q All right. Does this approach involve aspects
of the zoning feeder system you previously testified about?
A Yes, it dees.
Q How so?
A Well, you will find that starting with Mann High
School the area encompassed by the Mann High School lines
consists of too junior high school districts, Dunbar and Eooke:
and that these two junior high schools include elementary
schools as identified on the map.
I do not recall for sure whether or not Central
High School zone is complete in terms of a feeder system. 1
think it isn't. I think it i s not a complete feeder system,
due to the difficulties that we have always of making the most
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efficient use of buildings.
Q All right now for the record so we don’t delay,
who is the individual in your office who did the detail work
on this aspect of itv
A Don Roberts.
Q Then if we check with Mr. Don Roberts to refresh
your recollection on it, that would be the fastest way to get
it?
A Yes, ie would.
Q Can you go ahead and if you feel you are in doubt
we will drop it and I ’ll pick it up later?
A Well, it suffices eo say in our judgment it was
impossible to develop a complete feeder system, but with very-
few exceptions, the map that is displayed here does provide
a feeder system of schools ~ but there are a few exceptions.
I know that Henderson Junior High School is one
exception; Brady Elementary School is one exception. But all
of these can be identified in time.
Q All right now, Mr. Parsons, so we'll have a complejt
record, has your office prepared — based on information new
available which may or may not continue to be completely
accurate — a breakdown on student population in each zone at
each level?
A Yes, we have.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I'm going to put this in
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the record and we have — I have all my exhibits laid out.
1 have a little problem with this.
THIS COURT: Do you have a tabulation there?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, sir, and I don't want to put in
something and be changing it. If we are going to take a break
shortly, I can do it then.
THE COURT: I had hoped to go to twenty minutes
to eleven.
MR. FRIDAY: That will be fine, sir.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q But you have prepared it and you knew, based on
present information »» that is, at this time — what the studa
population is in each zone by population and by race; is that
correct?
A Yes.
Q Let me ask you a few questions. There can be
conscientiously conceived variations in a zoning plan, can't
there, Mr. Parsons?
A Yes, there could be almost as many variations as
there are blocks or streets on which lines could be drawn.
Q All right. Let's take, for example, at the high
school level. You were questioned previously in cross exam
ination as to why, in arriving at a plan — these are my words,
but it’s my recollection in re-reading the evidence -- that yoi
did not consider Parkview as a junior high and operate on
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zoning at the senior high level excluding Metropolitan with
only Central, Hall and Mann. Do you remember being questioned
about that?
A Yes, I do.
Q Have you given further consideration to that poss
ibility as a feasible alternative within the zoning concept?
A Yes.
THE COURTs I'm not sure I understand that, Mr.
Friday.
MR. FRIDAY; All right, sir. Your Honor, our
burden, as we understand it, is to make the record that we hav
considered all available, feasible alternatives. Since there
was specific questioning by Mr. Walker concerning why you vou..
leave Parkview as a high school rather than make it a junior
high and then operate on zoning with your other three high
schools, 1 want to develop we did consider this.
THE COURT; All right.
BY MR. FRIDAY;
Q You did consider this?
A Yes.
THE COURT: What is Parkview?
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q What is Parkview and where is it on Exhibit 22?
THE COURT; I see If.
THE WITNESS: Parkview is at the present time lists
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as Parkview School. Grades eights nine and ten are being offa
in Parkview.
THE COURT: It is essentially operated now as a
junior high?
THE WITNESS: Yes, but it is our present plan to
move this school to nine, tan and eleven next year and ten,
eleven and twelve the following year.
THE COURT: All right.
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high facility per pupil.
If we were to use Parkview School as a junior high
school, we would in the very, very near future begin to feel
a very pressing need for senior high school space.
If we use it as a senior high school facility, which
this plan calls for, we are immediately also in need of junior
high school space. Consequently, it would seem unwise to me
to jump out of the frying pan into the fire.
If we use it as a junior high school, we would soon
have to buy a site and build a new senior high school when we
already have a new senior high school built at Parkview, whic'
cost considerably more than it would cost to build a similar
facility to serve the needs of a junior high school.
Q Well, anything else on this?
A No.
Q All right.
Let me ask you two or three questions going back --
let me ask you this. This is the roost recently constructed
school in the Little Rock School District?
A Yes, it is.
Q When consideration was given to this, why did you
determine- to build it as a senior high school?
A There was a need for a senior high school. t
Q Did you build it for thePurpose of perpetuating segrs
gallon?
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A No, we have not built any buildinjf^for the purpose
of perpetuating segregation.
Q Was this at the time of the Oregon study being under
way?
A Yes, the bids were opened in fact on the constructic
of Parkview School during the time that the team from the
University of Oregon were in the process of writing their
report, yes.
Q Do you know whether any submission was made to the
Oregon team as to whether or not this school should be con
structed?
A Yes. I personally was in contact with the team fro:
the University of Oregon, and posed this question to them.
Q Did they approve it or disapprove it?
A They approved the construction of this building as
a school.
Q When we get our figures, I will come back to this,
and I have just a few other questions on it.
Let's move into faculty, Mr. Parsons. Go back to
the desegregation proposal, Defendant's Exhibit 23, which is
under sub-heading A, Faculty.
bill you explain to the Court why you arrived at the
proposal concerning the ranee as set forth on the Defendant's
Bxhibig 23?
A An analysis of the number of white and Negro teacher
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at each of our three levels of instruction in the Little Rock
school system will show the following -- and I hope I can
remember these figures -- IS per cent of the total high school
faculty is Negro, while 82 per cent of the high school faculty
is white.
0 Well, roughly 85-15 is what you're really saying,
is tills right?
MR. WALKER: If Your Honor --
THE WITNESS: I !m saying 18-82.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right. Go ahead.
A I'm saying 18-82, but surely within the assignment
of faculty members, any school administration ought to have
a three per cent flexibility.
0 All right. Go ahead.
A I see nothing wrong with 18-82 , and I see nothing
wrong with the next figure, which is, I think, 27 per cent
of the junior high school faculty is Negro I may be one or
two per cent off there -- and 73 per cent is white, while at
the elementary level, 35 per cent of the elementary faculty is
Negro and 65 per cent is white.
THE COURT: Are we talking about this year?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do those percentages fluctuate much ove"
the year?
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A They have fluctuated a little, hut it’s been pretty
inconsequential.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Go ahead, Mr. Parsons.
A In developing a plan for faculty desegregation, we
found considerable resistance to this plan among the employed
personnel in our school system. To say that teachers are
knocking on our door to experience this, quote, opportunity,
close quotes, would be an incorrect statement.
There has not been any desire expressed on the part
of either white or Negro teachers in large numbers to do this;
due to the fact that they feel that some discomfort in connect
with making this major change in faculty assignments, we feel
it encumbent upon us, since we operate on a single salary
schedule, since we operate on a single fringe benefit for all
of our teachers, since the high school teacher and the junior
high school and the elementary teacher all have identically
the same stature in our school system, that every teacher ought
to he treated the same way.
Since G2-18 would be perfect -- you could not get
more perfect than 82-18 at the high school level, and since we
feel that a three per cent flexibility is surely not unreasonaY
because of the peculiar qualifications and peculiar requirenen :
of individual jobs, then we feel that the 15 per cent and the
85 per cent, as the maximum, ought to apply across the board
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to all faculty members in the Little Rock Public School System
Q Based upon the application of these standards, have
you made a computation as to actual numbers of faculty assign
ments for the 1969-1970 school year?
A Based upon the composition of our faculty in 1968-6;
yes.
Q I hand you what has been narked as Defendant's Exhii:
No. 24, and ask you what that is.
(The document was marked as Defen-
dent's Exhibit No.24 for identifi
cation .)
A This is a report prepared by the administration,
based upon the formula as set forth in the resolution, the
Defendant’s Exhibit No. 23, showing the actual number of white
and Negro teachers and the number of transfers involved in
order to achieve the objective set forth in the resolution.
And, incidentally, it does more than that. I mean,
the figures as reflected here will show that where there, for
example, is a minimum of 13 per cent of each faculty, that
would be Negro, and a maximum of 45, that in many instances it
lias moved considerably above the ninumura; and where there is
a tninum of 55 per cent of each faculty to be white and a maxi
mum of 85 per cent, in many instances the minimum of 55 is
exceeded between the minimum and the maximum.
Q Let's be sure that this is an understandable exhibit
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Refer now specifically to Defendant's Exhibit 24.
You first state the standards from the standpoint ol
15-45, 55-85, and then you get into exact numbers.
Go down to where the column runs across the top,
"School, 68-69, Teachers - 69-70, Teachers", and let's take ar
run one column all the way across so we’ll be sure everyone
understands these exhibits. Do you understand what I’m after?
A Yes.
Q All right. Take "Senior High school, Central."
A In 1968-69, there are vive Negro teachers teaching
in Central High School, there are 93 white teachers, for a
total of 98. In 1969-70, we would propose 14 Negro teachers,
78 white teachers, for a total of 92. There would be some los
in enrollment -- this is couched in terms of the zoning plan.
The number of Negro teachers would be 14. The per
centage of Negro teachers would be 15 per cent; and the nurabc
of white teachers would be 78; and the percentage of white
teachers would be 85. And this would mean that there would be
a plus nine Negro teachers and a minus 15 white teachers.
In other words, 15 white teachers would leave Centre
High School either through the process of attrition or transfc
and there would be added to the staff nine Negro teachers in
order to achieve this. This is done for each school in the
system.
Q Your percentages would hit the exact criteria of 15
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Negro and 85 per cent white.
A In this school, it would,yes.
Q All right. Go to Mann, and do not read it across,
but just give the percentages to see haw the percentages there
would fall within the requested range.
A Well, 29 per cent of the Mann faculty would be Negro
while 71 per cent of the faculty would be white under this pis
Q Well, the white, for example, would exceed the mini
mum 55 per cent by 16 per cent.
A Yes.
Q All right. Let's take a junior high school. Let's
take the junior high school.
A Totals?
Q Pick out the outside ranges. For example, West Side
would be 20 per cent Negro, 80 per cent white?
A That's correct. Forest Heights would he 19 per cent
Negro, 81 per cent white. Dunbar would be 43 per cent Negro,
57 per cent white. Booker would be 44 per cent Negro and --
Q All right, that’s enough.
Now, in the elementary where you testified actually
the percentages were closer to, I believe you said, 65-35
A Correct.
Q -- for clarification, do your actual projected per
centages rim much closer to that than the 85-15 minimum?
449
A Yes.
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Q Mr. Parsons, we put in evidence at?®The first pro
ceeding as Defendant's Exhibit No. 4 your, quote. Plan for
Faculty Desegregation, Little Rock Public Schools.
X a la going to hand you this exhibit, and so that we
will have before the Court what we now propose, and ask you if
you will take a moment to look at it, and then sake any state
ment concerning necessary changes in procedures that are going
to have to be followed to accomplish faculty assignment withir
the ranges requested.
Do you understand what I'm asking, now?
A Yes.
Q Take just a moment and look at it.
(The witness examined the document.
When you are prepared to give your answer, 1 want
you to give it, but I wanted you again to look at the exhibit.
A It seems to me that the major change that would be
involved in it would be primarily the method of implementation
of the faculty desegregation plan.
Q Why have you had to alter your proposed method of
implementation?
A At the time that this was presented, there was a
plan to create a committee comprisea of administrative per
sonnel and classroom teachers for the purpose of recommending
assignments to the Superintendent of Schools and ultimately
to our School Board in connection with this.
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But because of the fact that the Classroom Teachers
Association voted merely to participate in the development of
guidelines for faculty desegregation and to not participate ii:
any manner in the actual recommendation of faculty assignments
this plan which we had previously submitted, will have to be
altered somewhat.
Q Kell, the Teachers declined to participate, is that
right?
A That’s correct.
Q All right. Arc there any others? I want to the
record to be accurate, that’s my point, Mr. Parsons. Are ther
any other deviations from that proposal that is in evidence as
Defendant's Exhibit No. 4 that you need to state so we xvill
have an accurate presentation in the record?
A Not that I know of,
Q All right, sir.
THE COURT: Suppose we take our recess until 11:00
o 1 clock.
(A short recess was taken.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr. Parsons, refer again to Defendant's Exhibit No.
24. Do you have it before you?
A Yes, I do.
Q For the record, l want to make clear what you based
these figures on, and what might cause variations in these
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figures when you end up with actual assignments at the point,
in time of September, 1969.
A These figures are based upon a projection of the
number of white and Negro teachers that would be in each schoo
in 1969-70, but it is based upon the number of white and Negro
teachers who are currently employed in 1968-69 in the Little
Rock school system.
There is always, of course, the possibility -- it's
more than a possibility; it will be an actuality -- that there
will be attrition, of course, from our school system, and the
employment of individuals may not be in exactly the same ratio
that they are currently employed and working in our system.
Q Well, will this make any appreciable difference in
these figures? . Do you understand what I 'in asking?
A Yes, I understand.
Q And I don't want an exact number.
A There would be some differentials, but if the plan
that has been submitted of the 15-45, 55-85, rest assured if
that is approved and ordered, that it will fall within that
ninimum and maximum range.
We prohbly could not, by any figment of the imagi
nation, develop exactly the same figures that we are filing
with the Court at the present time.
THE COURT: I think I understand.
MR. FRIDAY: I think that clarifies it, Your Honor.
452
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BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q All right, now, a raiment ago, you were testifying ab;
feeder systems. Are you now -- have you now refreshed your
recollection as to the variations -- I thought I had those
here -- do you have then, Mr. Parsons?
A I probably have them.
Q All right, I want the record clear now. Go ahead
and finish your testimony on that. Go ahead and finish your
testimony on that as to the variations.
A May I refer to this?
Q Oh, certainly. Certainly.
A I'd previously pointed out that the Mann
on Exhibit No. 22 comprised the Dunbar Junior High
High School
and the
Booker Junior High districts, while the Central High School
District includes all of the West Side Junior High School
District and all of the Pulaski Heights Junior High School
District and part of the Southwest Junior High School District
That part that we have specific reference to is the Meadow-
cliff Elementary District as identified on the map down hers
in the point colored red, while the Hall High School District
includes all of the Forest Heights Junior High School and
part of the Henderson Junior High School District, not all of
it.
Q All right.
A And the Parkviow District includes all of the Souths
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Junior High School District with the exception of Meadovcliff.
which has previously been identified, and part of the Hendersc
Junior High School District.
Q Now, are those the variations?
A Those arc the variations from the feeder system, ye:
Q Are there any other at any other levels, Mr. Parsons
A Yes, there probably would be some minor variations
at the elementary level in terms of developing a full feeder
system from elementary to junior high, yes.
Q But these can be ascertained by examining --
A Yes.
Q -» the lines that are there.
A Yes.
Q I said, for the record, feeder system. I meant
feeder aspect of this proposal.
All right, I referred a. moment ago to the computatic
of students by number and race in the zones depicted on Exhibi
22. I now hand you a document marked for identification as
Defendant's Exhibit no. 25, and ask if you can identify this
document?
(The document was marked Defendant5
Exhibit No. 25 for identification.)
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, did they hand you one of
these?
THE COURT: Yes.
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BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q What is this?
A Well, this is a -- these are tables showing the
actual number of white and Negro students based upon 1968-65
enrollment, and also showing projections for 1969-70 that woul
materialize on the basis of the zones identified in Exhibit
No. 22.
THE. COURT: Mr. Friday, I notice in the characteri
zation at the end of each table of each of the three tables,
there is a reference to an accompanying map. Is that this
Exhibit 22?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, Your Honor.
For the record, the reference to the accompanying
map on Defendant's Exhibit No. 25 is Defendant’s Exhibit No. 2
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I now offer this exhibit.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(The document heretofore marked for
identification as Exhibit No. 25
was received in evidence.)
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr. Pasons, before we started into the specifics of
the plan, I asked you a question of your opinion, and you
gave it, that zoning was the only feasible alternative avail
able to the School District at this time.
I did not then ask you to elaborate as to why. I
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would now have you explain this plan, and I l i k e to ask you ,
based on all of your testimony, why the zoning plan is the onl
feasible available alternative?
A We studied the multitude of problems that face us
now and have faced us historically in Little Rock in connectic
with this matter; wo find that there are certain constrictions
as to what can be done as we search for these solutions.
One of the restrictions has always been financial,
and it is finance at the present time. We know of no plan
that could be put into operation within the reasonably near
future in our school system that would not involve the expendi
tore of money other than a geographic zoning plan which would
actually make a more effective and a more efficient use of
existing physical facilities.
We know of no plan other than zoning that could be
administered in a more effective and a more impartial manner.
We feel that a zoning plan enables the administration of the
school system to identify every pupil in the District in terns
of where he is supposed to be going to school, and this enable
us to plan effectively and efficiently in terms of not only
the physical facilities required, but the number of and quali
fication of faculty members who should be employed in order tc
meet the needs of the students who are so eagerly identified
if they are zoned.
Q The plan embodies what has been referred to as the
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neighborhood school, concept, is that correct?
A Yes« The plan does involve the neighborhood school
concept. Consequently, we would state that we subscribe to the
neighborhood schci concept and we subscribe to the fact that
parents and patrons of any school will support and re-enforce
the activities of that school in relationship to the nearness
of the patrons to the school building itself.
We feel that zoning is an educationally sound plan
while certain other plans that we have thought of and have bet
thought of for us have not in every instance been educational:
sound.
Q You participate in an agency known as Metroplan in
this ares, Mr. Parsons?
A Yes.
Q What do you mean "you participate"?
A We participate by --in effect -- by subscribing to
the services of Metroplan by paying a rather small pro rata
share of the local cost of the operation of this planning age:
isfchin our community.
In return for this subscription, we receive all of
the reports of Metroplan and are requested periodically to
approve the overall planning design of our city as submitted \
Metroplan.
Q Now, I want to hand you
THE COURT: Maybe you should give a little descript:
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of what it is.
BY HR. FRIDAY:
Q What is Metroplan, Hr. Parsons?
A Metroplan is short for the Metropolitan Area Plannin
Council. This is a j oint-sponsored c ouncil that receives muc
of its funds from planning grants that are awarded to it from
the Federal government. Agencies participating in terras of
annual contributions to Metroplan include Pulaski County and
the City of Little Rock, the Little Rock school system, North
Little Rock school system, Pulaski County Special School
District, and certain other areas on the periphery of Pulas!
County, I believe, including Saline Comity.
The purpose of this organisation is to study and
develop some effective planning, long-range planning, for this
area, largely concentrated on land use.
THE COURT: And perhaps to coordinate the planning
of the separate governmental divisions?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Right.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q I hand you a report, and ask you if on this report
entitled "Comprehensive Development Plan”, and ask you if on
page two there is a listing of the Metropolitan Area Planning
Commission officers and participants?
A Yes, sir, there is.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, for the record -- are you
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familiar with this , Mr. Walker? ,*»-- -
MR. WALKER: I am not familiar with it, but I have
no objection to it.
MR. FRIDAY: Do you want to take a moment with me
and look at it? I want to take two items out of it. We have
n't had an opportunity to reproduce it.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we have no objection to the
introduction of the whole plan.
MR. FRIDAY: I haven't, either, Your Honor, but this
is certainly voluminous. I hadn't planned to offer the whole
thing.
THE COURT: Well, you might designate the portions
you think are pertinent.
MR. FRIDAY: Perhaps we can agree on it. 1 will
designate the portions I want, arid you can designate on the
portions you want.
MR. WALKER: That will be fine.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, we will do this; and if I
could simply at this time tender that, with that reserved rigr
as Defendant's Exhibit No. 26, portions of this Metropolitan
Area Planning Commissions’ report.
THE COURT: All right.
(The document heretofore referred
to was marked Defendant's Exhibit N
26 for identification, and was
received in evidence.)
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we have no objection to Mr,
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MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we have no objection to Mr.
Friday offering that and stating to the Court what he purport;
to have it show.
THE COURT: I thought that's what he planned to do.
MR. FRIDAY: Based on his statement, just let me
state it, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. FRIDAY: We wanted to put in the presentation nw <
in this report of standards of school design and location wit!
the principal source being Metroplan itself, but with the
other identified sources as the American Public Health Associ
ation, National Council on School House, Guide for Planning
School Plants, Peabody College, National Education Association,
Environment Engineering for the School, U. S. Department of
Health, Education and Welfare, and, of course, Metropolitan
Area Planning Commission School Location Districts.
The standards cover the following: location and
other standards of elementary, junior high and senior high;
and cover these items: desirable walking radius to school,
location with respect to type of street, desirable pupil capac e.
per school, number of classrooms, desirable site acreage, pupil
per class, site area used by buildings and parking facilities,
play area.
I will reproduce by an appropriate method, and withou
reading all of the information under the various columns, Your
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Honor, and I will submit this together with those pages of the
report that reflect the make-up of the Commission, its office*
and participants in this area as Defendant's Exhibit No. 26.
THE COURT: You do not now know the page numbers of
the --
MR. FRIDAY: The page numbers of the standards of
school design and location -- the page number on which appear
the standards of school design and location is number 33.
The other page,that I would like to put in is page
number 2.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. FRIDAY: That is all I have on direct at this
time, Your Honor.
fHE COURT: Cross examination may proceed.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, may I have a quick minute?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I left out one point. I
have one formal thing, if you would permit me, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: All right.
MR. FRIDAY: I want to put in, Mr. Walker, as Defen
dant's Exhibit No. 27 the minutes of the School Board meeting
of November 15, 1968 that approved this plan.
(The document heretofore referred
to was marked Defendant's Exhibit
No. 27 for identification.0
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BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q I hand you, Mr. Parsons* what purports to be a compl
set of those minutes and ask if you can identify them?
A Yes.
No. 27.
MR. FRIDAY: I offer, Your Honor, Defendant's Exhibi
THE COURT: It will be received.
(The document previously marked as
Defendant's Exhibit No. 27 for ider
tification was received in evidence
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, did you have the benefit of the last
exhibit at the time that you developed for presentation to the
School District your current plan which is before the Court
for consideration now?
A Printed in this comprehensive development plan of
Metroplan, the answer would be no. However, these standards,
as repeated in this, have been standards that I have seen
before in other publications.
Q I understand; but you did not have this particular
Metroplan proposal before you during the time that you made the
present proposal to the School District, is that true?
A I don’t
THE COURT: 1 don't think it was a plan.
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BY MR. WALKER:
Q The Metroplan proposal at the time they proposed the
present desegregation plan for submission to the Court.
A The -- this particular booklet was not published at
tha t time, I believe.
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, have you been a regular recipient
of Metroplan publications?
A Yes.
Q Are you familiar with the fact that Metroplan publi
cations have pointed up community changes between 19S7 and
1968, by not only race but economic?
A I'm not sure I understand what you mean by comraunit)
changes.
Q All right. Are you familiar with the fact that Meti
plan has repeatedly stated that the eastern part of Little
Rock is rapidly becoming all -- predominantly, if not all,
Negro, and that so is the central part of the city, while the
western part of the city is becoming predominantly white?
A No, 1 do not recall having read this in the Metro
plan publications.
Q You do receive all Metroplan publications, though.
A Yes.
Q Do you recall receiving a Metroplan publication in
January of 1963?
A No.
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Q You do not.
I should like to ask you whether or not you have
heard this statement before from any of your administration
staff or from any other person connected with Metroplan, and
they are referring to Census Tracts 1, 3, 4, S, 6, 7, 8, 9,
10, and 11, which, as you know, includes this area of the
city.
"A massive population change has occurred in this
area over the last 12 years. The area declined in popu
lation from S3, 451 persons in 1950 to 41,995 persons in
1960, or a decrease of 21 per cent or 11,450 persons
over the decade. Of the total population in 1960, 27,309
persons were white and 14,686 were non-white . . .
"Major factors accounting for this decrease in popu
lation were the conversion of land from residential to
commercial uses, the acquisition of land for the inter
state freeway and interchanges and the movement of person
from the older areas into newer areas of the city.
"Major redevelopment projects undertaken or planned
during the past twelve years include the Livestock
project, High Street project, Central Little Rock project
South End project and the East End project. Although
many of the areas are still in a state of transition,
it is believed that the decline in population has been
arrested and that it will remain stable over the foresees
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future. Indications are that the white population is
steadily decreasing while the Negro population is steadil
increasing. This belief is based in part on a continuinj
decline in white elementary school belonging averaging
about 80 pupils per year for the areas as a whole at the
same time Negro elementary school belonging is increasing
in Negro belonging necessitated the conversion of
RightselX School from a white to a Negro school in 1961
"Current enrollment at Kramer, Parham, Mitchell
and Centennial is approximately the same as that for the
former combined five schools in the 1959-60 session.
This trend, if continued, may necessitate the conversion
of still another white school to a Negro school."
Did you have that information before you, Mr.
Parsons?
A I do not recall it. I could not say what I have
read before, I don’t recall everything that I have read. I
wish I could.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I would like for Mr. Friday
to have an opportunity to examine that, which is a document
that was prepared by Metroplan.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, I want you to name -- I ask you tc
identify -- name and identify and set forth the racial, pupil
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anil faculty composition of every school that has been construc
ted in Little Rock since your administration began.
A I do not understand your question.
Q Would you name each school that has been constructed
in Little Rock since you became Superintendent of Schools? I
think that was in 1961
A Parkview
Q May I ask one question about this? Isn't it true
that Parkview is located in an area which is overwhelmingly
white, with the population trend, to your knowledge, continuin
to be white families moving into that area and the Negro popu
lation, such as it is, remaining more or less constant?
A I could not react to that by saying yes or no, becauj:
I do not know what the trends are in this area.
Q You have not, as Superintendent, studied those trend
A No, I have not.
Q And you have not concerned yourself withthe racial
composition of the area.
A We are always concerned about racial composition, bu
in terms of going out and deciding that "here is a trend that
is developing'*, we are not capable of doing that.
Q Metroplan has studied it, though, have they not?
A I really do not know. They probably have.
Q But you have not received the benefit of their study
or you have not used it in preparing this plan, have you?
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A If they have made a study -- a recent study, we have
not used it in the preparation of this plan.
Q You did not use a Metroplan study which set forth
the racial composition of that area at the time you selected
the particular site, is that true?
A I'm sure that we did at that time.
Q Do you recall what the racial composition of the
area was at that time according to Metroplan?
A No, I do not.
Q Did you know yourself generally what the racial
composition of the area was as to whether this was a suitable
site for Parkview School?
A We knew it was somewhere between five and ten per
cent of the area populated by Negro families.
Q Did you also know there was substantial subdivision
development in that area?
A No, I did not.
Q What are the other schools that have been constructc <
since your administration began?
A McDermott.
Q Would you locate McDermott as being in the extreme
western part of the city on Reservoir Road?
A Right.
Q What is the racial composition of that area, Mr.
Parsons?
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A As far as I know, it is largely white.
Q Did you know of any Negroes who lived in that area
at the time you decided to construct that school?
A No, I did not.
Q What was the year that you decided to construct
that school?
A I do not recall. Probably three or four years ago.
Q All right. Now, hasn't that area undergone, since
the construction of that school, substantial increases in
lation?
A The school itself has certainly increased its popu-
lation, and I would assume that reflects the growth in the
area.
Q Has the racial composition of the McDermott School
substantially changed?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q So that this, doesn't it, reflects the fact that
large numbers of white people are moving into the area and th
no Negro families are moving into the area -- that is, famili<
who have school-age children?
A Not necessarily, since we do operate under freedom
of choice.
Q But really, do you know of any Negro families that
live in that area?
A No, I do not, no.
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Q You live out near that area, don’t you?
A Fairly near, yes.
Q Now, where are the other schools, Mr. Parsons, that
you have constructed?
A Western Hills.
Q All right, now. Let’s identify Western Hills. This
is in the extreme western part of the city.
A Yes.
MR. WALKER: You see it, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, I see it.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q All right. What is the racial composition of the
Western Hills area, Mr. Parson?
A I frankly do not know.
Q But you do know the pupil attendance at Western Hill
is all white.
A No, 1 am not really aware of that.
Q All right, Mr. Parsons, I call your attention to
your figures that --
THE COURT: It shows six non-white.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Under your proposed geographic attendance area plan ,
what would be the number of Negroes in that school?
A Well, I believe that would be reflected in the reco:
THE COURT: It shows zero on Exhibit 25.
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THE WITNESS: All right.
BY MR . WALKER:
Q So that it * s rather clear, Mr. Parsons, that in the
area you have drawn around Western Hills, there are no Negro
pupils residing in that area.
A All right.
Q Now, when you decided to locate Western Hills in th.i
particular area, did you give any consideration to the fact
that there would be no Negroes in the area and only white
pupils?
A No, we didn’t.
Q You did not. You did not, in other words, design
this school for any purpose other than to accommodate the pup l
population then in that area.
A That's correct.
Q All right; so that this school was constructed on a
neighborhood school basis.
A That's correct.
Q And you know that it would be an all-white school,
if you had a geographical attendance area planned for that
school at that time.
A Say that again.
Q You knew that this school would be an all-white sch:
in terms of school attendance patterns, at the time that you
constructed that school.
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Q You did start that as an all-white school, did you
not, Mr. Parsons?
A We just started it as a school, I believe, under
freedom of choice.
Q You did populate it with only white faculty members
at the time.
A I believe we did at the beginning, yes.
Q And you did the same thing with Western Hills, isn' .
that true?
A I think it probably is.
Q And McDermott?
A Probably.
Q So thet they were actually started as white schools ’
A Well, if a white school is defined as a school with
an all-white faculty, the answer would be yes. If it isn't,
it would be no.
Q All right, Mr. Parsons.
Now, would you tell me the other schools that you
started during your administration?
A I -- Gilliam.
Q Identify this school as Gilliams, and it's in the
extreme eastern part f the city in an area near what is known
as the Booker Homes Housing project, is that correct?
A Yes.
0 I see. And what was the racial composition of that
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A I believe I testified previously that we didn’t even
take this into consideration. We constructed the school where
the pupils were, regardless of race.
Q All right, Mr. Parsons, what are the other schools
you have constructed since you have been here?
A Terry.
Q All right. Where is Terry located? Is it, would
you say, in the extreme western part of the city?
A More west than McDermott.
Q Does this map reflect development in the areas --
that is, in terms of residential development?
A I doubt that it does.
Q Isn't it true, though, that at the time Terry Schoo .
was located, that particular site was located, that you did
not have more than a dozen families, more or less, within, say
a dozen blocks of Terry School?
A I'm not sure that this would be true, but it was a
sparsely settled area at the time that the site was acquired.
Q Isn't it true that Metroplan had predicted that area
would be an area of expansion, that eventually you would need
an elementary school in the area?
A Yes.
Q Did you take into consideration what the probable
racial composition of that area was?
A No, we did not.
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area at the time, as you knew it, Mr. Parsons?
A I would assume that it was largely Negro, if not all
Negro.
Q Did you give any consideration to locating that
school someplace else to promote the concept of integration?
A No, we did not.
Q Did you open this as a Negro school?
A It placing in that school an all-Negro faculty wouli
indicate that it wwas an all-Negro school, yes, but I believe
.. Well, it was opened in the days of pupil assignment and
then moved into freedom of choice.
Q All right. What was the capacity of that school at
the time, Mr. Parsons?
A Oh, I do not recall. I believe it had twelve class
rooms. Still has the same number.
Q So it was built to accommodate between 150 and 250
pupils, is that true?
A I ’d say -- I'd say you're a little low on that, but
it --
Q I think, Mr. Parsons, that the capacity is listed
in your plan, your proposed plan, as 364, but the present
enrollment is 213.
A All right.
THE COURT: What is the name of that school?
THE WITNESS: Gilliam. I thought your capacity was
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Q What are the other schools, Mr. Parsons, that you have
constructed?
A Henderson Junior High School.
Q And where is that located, Mr. Parsons? In the
extreme western part of the city near Brady Elementary School"
A Right.
Q Did you know what the pupils’ living pattersn were
at the time you constructed that school there?
A I’m not sure I know what you mean by living pattern;.
Q Did you know that all the pupils who lived in that
particular area were white?
A No, I didn’t know that, and I’m not sure that they
were.
Q But you do know that -- how far from Henderson do
you live, Mr. Parsons?
A Oh, a couple of miles, probably. A mile and a half
Something like that. By road.
Q All right. If you had junior high school age child
under your present plan, would they be in the Henderson Junio
High School attendance area?
A They would, yes, I believe they would.
Q All right, Mr. Parsons. You do then have familiarity
with the residential patterns around Henderson?
A Yes, I do.
Q And would you concede that area is an all-white area
en,
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BY MR. WALKER:
Q But this school will have only 1S9 pupils under
your proposed plan?
A If that’s what the table shows, that’s right.
Q So doesn't that indicate, Mr. Parsons, you didn't
really need to construct a new school and that you had the
alternative of perhaps expanding the existing capacity?
A That's entirely possible. We've thought of this
many times.
Q Isn't it true that by building additional schools,
the District incurred some additional expenses, such as having
to have an administrative staff for that school which is an
expense that will be recurring from year to year?
A There are always additional expenses incurred in coji
nection with opening up a new school, yes.
Q Did you take that factor into consideration when yoji
made the decision to not expand any of the existing facilities
rather than --
A At the time that Gilliam School was built, there
was no consideration given to the expansion of the school,
the existing facilities.
Q And there was also no consideration given to placin
Gilliam so as to promote the concept of desegregation.
A There was not.
low.
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With perhaps a fragment of --
A Oh, let’s say it’s predominantly white, and I would
agree with you, yes.
Q Predominantly white. Would you say, Mr. Parsons,
that at the time you located that school there, as much as
five per cent of the total population was Negro?
A Probably not. However, I made no analysis of it to
determine that.
Q So you did not place Henderson there in an effort
to promote
A No , we didn’t.
Q - - a unified school system.
A No, we did not. We just built the building where
the pupils were.
Q Or were expected to be?
A That's correct.
Q Now, what are the other schools that you have con
structed, Mr. Parsons, since you have become Superintendent?
A Do you have one in mind?
Q What about Booker?
A Yes, Booker Junior High. The site was purchased, I
believe, prior to the time that I became Superintendent, but
I was Superintendent at the time that the contract was let
and the building was built.
Q Are you familiar with the fact that the area around
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a year?
A I think this is true.
Q Isn’t it true also that there was another white
junior high school on the eastern part of town within a dozen
blocks of Booker Junior High School known as East Side Junior
High School?
A There was at one time.
Q And that you closed that school rather than repair
it, and opened at the same time Booker Junior High School?
A Yes.
Q And that all of the black pupils, numbering 19, wer
assigned from the East Side Junior High School to the Booker
Junior High School, and that all the white pupils attending
East Side Junior High School were assigned to other white
schools in the city?
A This may be true. I do not recall that this occurri
but it may be true.
Q Isn’t it also true that at the time you opened Bookc
you did not transfer any of the white faculty members from the
East Side school to the Booker Junior High School?
A That is correct.
Q But that you did transfer a number of them to the
Henderson Junior High School?
A That is correct.
478
All right. Did you make a conscious effort at that
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Booker, which you have set forth here, is predominantly Negro"
A I’m sure that it is.
Q Are you also familiar with the fact that that is an
area which has been a transitional area for several years?
A No.
Q You are not familiar with that fact?
A No.
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, you did, in your Parsons Report,
set forth that that was an area in transition. Do you recall
that?
A You have not defined for me what you mean, transit!);
from what to what?
Q I believe you said this was an area which was in
transition in this manner, that white people were moving out
of the area, and they were being replaced by Negro people,
and this reflects a decline in the number of white pupils who
live in that particular section of town.
A Well, I do not wish to quibble about this. I do no:
recall having said that, but if I did, I will accept it.
Q You did know that this would be a Negro school at
the time.
A Oh, yes. Yes.
Q And isn’t it true that at the time you opened Booker
as a junior high school, you almost simultaneously opened
Henderson as a junior high school, within, say, six months to
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time to integrate Booker and Henderson, or Booker and the
East Side pupil population?
A No, there was no conscious effort to do this.
Q Now, was Booker Junior High School named for a Negr<|>
citizen?
A Yes.
Q I see. For whom was Henderson Junior High School
named?
A A white citizen.
Q All right. And for whom was the Terry School named ’
A A white citizen.
Q Is that Mrs. D. D. Terry or her family?
A The family, yes.
Q All right. Now, you also, isn't it true, Mr. Parsons
started another Negro school known as the Ish School in the
southeastern part of the city of Little Rock near Fourche Dam
or whatever you call the dam?
A We built a school building there, yes.
Q And isn’t it true that when we had the hearing here
before in 1965, that you stated to the Court that you had not
identified your pupil population for that area?
A That’s correct.
Q And that you didn't know whether it was a Negro
school or a white school?
A I'm not sure that this is what I said.
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Q All right, Mr. Parsons, let me refresh your recollection
A All right.
THE COURT: What hearing is that, Mr. Walker?
MR. WALKER: This is the hearing before Your Honor
on January S, 1965.
THE COURT: It is not in this case?
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, i*e have sought to incorpor
by reference the proceedings from the Clark case without gain;
back into these Aaron and all the other cases, because Clark
and this case, as we understood it, were sore or less related
THE COURT: That’s true.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, I aa going to object to th:
for this reason. It is irrelevant to the issues before the
court to go back into evidence that was developed prior to the
Clark decision in this case, and we object to it for this
reason; and if it is admitted, Your Honor, it will prompt a
good deal of elaboration on our part as to some of these issue
particularly the East Side assignments.
THE COURT: When you are referring to the decision,
you are referring to the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals?
MR. FRIDAY: Yes, the decision in the Clark case in
the Court of Appeals, Your Honor, yes.
THE COURT: I think we did start a new day as to
that, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I think the Court of Appeal:
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indicated that contrary to the views of some -- I think they
were referring to counsel at the time ~~ that this School
District is bound by all of the prior orders of this Court.
THE COURT: Well, of course it is.
MR. WALKER: And then also bound by any decisions
that may have been
THE COURT: We are not going back into all that.
MR. WALKER: We are not concerned with that, Your
Honor. What we are trying to do now --
THE COURT: If you want to refresh his memory about
a specific thing, you may do so.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
THE COURT: But there is nothing specifically in th:
record except the hearing in August and the hearing this week.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor. We will, of
course, proffer the full transcript of the Clark hearing in
1365.
THE COURT: It will be denied.
MR. WALKER: I understand; but as a proffer, Your
Honor, we will at the proper time seek to have it placed in
here.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, may I ask whether or not you have
ever stated that you, in 1965, had under contract and in the
process of construction an unnamed school, elementary school,
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at 30th and Pulaski Streets?
A If it says that’s what I said, I said it, I’m sure,
Mr. Walker.
Q At the time, Mr. Parsons --
A I don't recall it, but I'm sure I did.
Q -- wore you at the time, Mr. Parsons, aware of the
pupil population of that particular area?
A Not as aware of it as I am at the present time.
Q I see. But you did decide to open Ish as a Negro
school, isn't that true?
A Originally, we decided to open it with a Negro
faculty and Negro student body, so it was a Negro school, yes
Q And you also named it for a Negro citizen.
A That’s true. Yes.
Q And isn’t it true that at the time you opened Ish,
you had in the central part of the city near Centennial Schoo
a school known as Capitol Hill Elementary School?
A Yes.
Q Which was attended only by Negro pupils.
A Yes, that’s right.
Q And that you closed Capitol Hill and dispersed the
pupils who attended Capitol. Hill to only Negro schools within
the area?
A That’s correct.
Q And you assigned them without giving them a freedom
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of choice, initially?
A That’s correct.
Q All right. So that this is one of the ways in whic i
you got the initial Ish pupil body?
A Correct.
Q Now, did you at the time that you -- that the Schoo L
District closed the Capitol Hill school site, which is between
would you say, Centennial and Gibbs, having those Negro pupil»
who were in Capitol Hill assigned to Centennial and to other
predominantly white schools within the area?
A I lost your question.
Q Did you consider assigning the Negro Capitol Hill
students to Centennial and other white schools in the area?
A I'm reasonably sure we did not.
q All right; so that you consciously created Ish as
a Negro school.
A On the contrary, I’d say we unconsciously created
it. We didn't take the race into consideration. We just
built the school where the pupils were.
q But in filling that school, though, Mr. Parsons, yo j
did take race into consideration, isn’t that true?
A Only originally, but then we went back and offered
freedom of choice at the direction of the Court.
Q But that was only after the plaintiffs in that cas;
A That’s correct.
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Q -- filed another lawsuit against the school.
A That's correct.
Q And the effect of that, of course, was to leave Ish
and the other Negro schools as Negro schools.
A The effect of the lawsuit?
Q No, the effect of the re-assignment procedure that
you adopted pursuant to the Court’s directive.
A Suffice it to say that under freedom of choise f it h
continued to be populated by Negro pupils,yes.
Q Do you have any other sites, Mr. Parsons, whereby
the School District presently proposes to locate schools?
A We own only two sites on which no construction has
been initiated.
Q What are those two sites, Mr. Parsons?
A There is a site committed to purchase on West 12th
Street in the University Park Urban Renewal area. There is a
site that has been purchased in the Pleasant Valley area.
Q I see. Now, the Pleasant Valley area site includes
how many acres, Mr. Parsons?
A I believe it's twenty.
Q Now, has the District committed its funds for that
purchase?
A Well, we have purchased the site.
Q Oh, you have purchased the site.
A We have purchased the site.
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485
Q And you purchased the site before there was a suf
ficient number of pupils living within that area.
A We surely did,, yes.
Q YOu surely did.
Now, Mr. Parsons, to your knowledge, what is the
present racial composition of Pleasant Valley?
A As far as I know, it is whito.
Q And what is the present economic status of the neign
b orhood, as you know it?
A I'm sure it's above middle class.
Q Upper middle class.
A Yes.
Q Now, isn't it true that in the Pleasant Valley area
where you have a site selected, that you do not have, to your
knowledge, any Negro persons residing? And I am including the
subdivisions here of not only Pleasant Valley, but Robinwood
and Walton Heights.
A To my knowledge, I know of no Negro families living
in this area.
Q So that if this site does, in fact, be used for an
elementary schoool.it will be all-white pupil attended school'
A On the basis of the present population, the answer,
as far as I know, would be yes; but again, I'm no expert on
what is going to happen in housing patterns in our city in the
future.
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Q All right, Mr. Parsons. Now, did you purchase this
site with the idea in wind of promoting the concept of pupil
integration or bringing about a unified school system?
A The answer is no; but had you asked about segregafio
the answer also would have been no.
Q Nor you didn't consider race?
A No.
Q Nor did you consider history?
A We did not.
Q Now, isn't it true also that in the last three year:;
.Mr. Parsons, the School District has annexed certain areas to
the city -- that is, the School District?
A Yes.
Q And those areas include Candlewood and Walton Heigh :
A Yes.
Q Are there any other areas out west?
A I think not.
Q Now, I point to the extreme tip of this area here,
the northwestern tip, and ask if that is the Candlewood area?
A Well, yes, the Candlewood area, I assume; if it is
in reality drawn on this map, that's where it would he.
Q Now, was there an effort made by the developers of
the Candlewood area to have the area included within the Litt:.
Rock School District prior to the development of that area?
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A Yes.
Q And was it stated to the School District that bring:
the Candlewood area into the Little Rock School District woulc
help them to promote sales in the area?
A No, it was never so stated to me.
Q Do you remember Mr. J. kythe Walker making a present?;
tion to the School Board in 1966 where he made a statement
such as that?
A He may well have done so, and the minutes would
reflect that, I would assume; but I do not recall that anyone
ever said that "this will help us to develop the area".
Q Isn't it true that the Little Rock School District
is considered by many educators in the State to be the State':;
leading school district?
A Yes.
Q All right. And it is desirable for pupils and thei ■
parents to locate within the Little Rock School District, is
that true?
A I think this is true, yes.
Q Isn't it true, also, that a large number or that
some of the areas lying within the Little Rock School Distric:
is actually outside the city limits of Little Rock?
A Yes, this is true.
Q And the Candlewood area is one of those areas?
A ft probably is. I really don't know.
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488
Q The area for identification purposes that I am desc
ing would be along Highway 10 at the extreme tip of your map,
is that true?
A You're talking about Walton Heights?
Q Walton Heights and Candlewood.
A Yes.
Q In terms of proximity, you have a developed Negro a
known as Pankey in closer proximity to McDermott School than
Candlewood is.
A This is entirely possible, yes.
Q But you have drawn lines or permitted lines to be
drawn through annexation around Pankey so as to exclude Pankc
from the the Little Rock School District.
A Well, not really around it. They were just not
ncluded in the resolution or the petition that was presented
to us.
Q So that to the east -- to the south of the Candlewooc
area and the Walton Heights area, I ask you is the Pankey
Addition located?
A Yes.
Q And that it is a predominantly Negro area --
A Yes.
Q -- which is within the County School District.
A Right.
Q And there is, to your knowledge, a Negro school in
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489
Pankey, isn’t there?
A Yes.
Q And if those pupils in Candlewood and Walton Height!,
had not been brought within the Little Rock School District,
they would be in closer proximity to the Pankey School than
they would have been to any other school?
A That's probably true. However, I ’m not well acquan
ted with the location of Pulaski County’s scholl buildings.
Q I see. But you do know that there is no other
school in close proximity.
A I would certainly think there wouldn't be.
THE COURT: Let’s take our noon recess now.
MR. WALKER: May I just ask one more question to ge*
this closed out?
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, isn’t it true that the Gilliam School
was named for a Negro citizen, too?
A Yes.
THE COURT: We will take a recess until 1:15.
(Whereupon, at 12:00 o'clock, the above-entitled
proceedings were in recess, to reconvene at 1:15 o'clock, p.m
the afternoon of the same day.)
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490
AFTERNOON SESSION
1:15 p.m.
THE COURT: All right, gentlemen.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I would like to again
state that the transcript that I wanted to make reference to
is relevant for the reason that I did not clearly articulate
before, and the reason is that this is the Delores Clark case
and this --
THE COURT: I understand.
MR. WALKER: --is just merely a continuation of
that case.
THE COURT: The posture of this case has changed
several times.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we are talking about the
planning, though, of the District to eliminate the pre-existi
dual school system.
THE COURT: Well, you can take it up with me at
some recess.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I have attempted, for the Court of
Appeals -- I do not want this case to get in a situation that
nobody knows what this record is.
MR. WALKER: Yes, Your Honor.
Thereupon,
FLOYD W. PARSONS
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491
having previously been called as a witness, and previously duly
sworn, resumed the stand and was examined and testified further
as follows:
RECROSS EXAMINATION - Resumed
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, has the enrollment of the Little Rock
School District increased materially between 1965 and the
present?
THE COURT: What was the second word?
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Has the enrollment of the Little Rock School District
increased materially between 1965 and 1968?
A Not materially.
Q I have already introduced as Defendant's Exhibit 4 a
statement which is marked for identification as Plan for Facult
Desegregation, Little Rock Public Schools; and on page one of
that, I show you Table No. 1, which sets out that in 1965-66,
there was a total pupil enrollment of 23,811.
A All right.
Q And that in 1968-69, the present school year, there
would be an enrollment of 24,715. Is that correct?
A I'm sure that is correct.
Q All right. Mr. Parsons, what in 1965 was the effici<
capacity, as you recall it, of Central High School?
A Oh, probably, two thousand -- twenty-one hundred,
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maybe twenty-two hundred. I'ra not sure.
Q What was the efficiency capacity of Hall High School?
THE COURT: Are you talking about --
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure that I know what you mean
by efficiency capacity.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, there is an exhibit in,
Exhibit 8, which I will hand to the Court, and I will give Mr.
Parsons a copy of it, which uses the term ’’efficiency capacity’
I don't know what efficiency capacity means. I pre
sume that Mr. Parsons knows what it means because he uses it.
THE WITNESS: 1 don't know exactly what it means.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q That is your Exhibit No. 8, is it not?
A I haven't seen it. (Document handed to witness.)
Q All right.
Do you recall having seen that document before, Mr.
Parsons?
A Yes.
Q Would you say that the figures contained therein are
the figures that you compiled?
A About the school system, yes.
THE COURT: That would be as of what time?
MR. WALKER: As of 1965, Your Honor.
Your Honor, Defendant's Exhibit No. 5 was introduced
in 1965, and it was introduced by Mr. Friday, to use the terms
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of the description here, to show what the racial composition of
each school would be if at that time non-overlapping attendance
districts were created at all levels.
THE COURT: You are talking about Defendant's Exhibit
No. 5?
MR. WALKER: No. 8. That is the one you have there,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q At that time, Mr. Parsons, you stated that the effic:
ency capacity of Central High School was 2,400; Hall High School
1,400; and Mann, 1,400, for a total high school efficiency
capacity of 5,200.
A All right.
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, since 1965, what changes have
occurred in the total number of high school pupils that you havs
attending the high schools in Little Rock?
A I really do not know.
Q If I told you, Mr. Parsons, that at present you have
5,118 pupils in all the high schools, with Metropolitan excluded,
would you say that would be reasonably accurate?
A I would say that it would be, yes.
Q All right. So that in 1965, with three schools --
three high schools -- you could have accommodated all the high
school pupils in the District.
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A On the basis of efficiency capacity,
Q That’s right.
Now, isn't it true that you had instructions to
increase the capacity at Horace Mann High School since 1965?
A I doubt this is the case. We would have to go back
to the records and determine when this addition to Horace Mann
was completed.
Q You don’t recall it?
A I do not, but I can assure you that Horace Mann did
not have a capacity of 1400 students prior to the time of the
completion of the addition.
Q All right.
A So it must have been completed when that report was
made, or anticipated.
Q Now, there has been some additional construction at
Central High School, has there not?
A Well, a library, yes.
Q Is that the new facility which has just been complete
A Yes.
Q 1 see. That will make the new efficiency capacity
slightly greater.
A No. On the contrary. Not the construction of the
library, but on the contrary, the efficiency capacity, using
this terminology, is perhaps less at Central High School now
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than in 1965.
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Q I see. What factors cause you to come to that con
clusion?
A Due to the fact that certain innovative programs have
been introduced into Central High School. I'm talking about
ranging from the installation of language laboratories to the
removal of partitions in classrooms to permit team teaching,
the introduction of an ROIC or AFROTC unit, using a large area
of the building to house this particular unit.
So the actual capacity, in terms of the number of
students, is less now than it was at one time.
Q You presently have enrolled in Central High School
2,054 pupils.
A All right.
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, in 1965, was there a need for the
construction of a new junior high school to replace West Side
Junior High School?
A In 1965?
Q Yes.
A I think the need has not been officially identified,
but there is little doubt in my mind but that the need was thei
because this was an old building.
Q I see. Was there a need to relieve the pressure of
pupil enrollment at Dunbar School at that time?
A I do not know. I do not know what the enrollment of
Dunbar was.
Q But you did, during that year, relieve the enrollment
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at Dunbar because you opened the Booker Junior High School,
is that correct?
A Yes, that’s true.
Q All right. Now, at the time that you opened the
Booker Junior High School, did you give any consideration to
the fact that West Side needed replacing and that it would be
feasible, in order to bring about a unified school system, to
have a new school constructed within the West Side area?
A As I recall, no consideration was given to replace
ment of West Side.
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, would you identify the other school
that are presently in operation which are in need of replace
ment which have been identified by you as being dilapidated or
having outlived their usefulness?
A Bush Elementary School.
Q All right.
A Wo have proposed for some time the phasing out of
Bush Elementary School, perhaps to be accompanied with the
phasing out of Parham and Kramer, and the construction of a nev
large elementary school in this central area to serve an
integrated population as it exists in this particular area.
THE COURT: I do not see Bush on Exhibit 25.
THE WITNESS: Well, Bush, under our zoning plan, Your
Honor, is to be phased out.
BY MR. WALKER:
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Q Are you saying, Mr. Parsons, that Parham and Kramer
should be phased out, too?
A I'm saying that when funds are available that the
student body that is currently enrolled in Bush could be corabim
with the two student bodies at Parham and Kramer, and good,
creative, innovative elementary school in this section of the
city could be built to accommodate this student body.
Q I see.
A But to say that the building is dilapidated -- and. I
believe this is the term you used -- I would not say that.
Q But you have identified that as a school which is in
need of replacement at this time, those two schools
A Yes, I think they should be replaced.
Q You have also identified West Side as a school that
is in need of replacement.
A Yes.
Q Now, what other schools have you identified as being
in need of replacement at this time?
A I'm not sure that I have identified any others. If
you have a -- I do not think -- I certainly have identified
some in need of repairs.
Q Did you not identify Pfiefer as a school which should
be replaced?
A I did at one time, yes, but I'm not sure that Pfiefe:
School should be replaced. It depends now to a certain extent
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on the -- the future of Pfiefer School depends to a certain
extent on the implications of the Model Cities Program.
Q I see.
Now, Mr. Parsons, with regard to Pfiefer, is that
school presently overcrowded?
A In terms of
Q The basic facility.
A Seriously overcrowded.
Q Seriously overcrowded. Have you afforded those stu
dents who are enrolled in that school, who are subjected to
the overcrowded conditions, a second choice of schools?
A The second choice, of course, is always available to
them.
Q Have you advised them that the school is overcrowded
and that they may apply -- that they may have a second choice?
A Because of the difficulties that these children would
experience in terras of transportation, we have made every effor
to provide for their convenience by placing portable buildings
adjacent to the permanent buildings at Pfiefer.
Q You have not sought to assign then on a residential
proximity basis -- the overflow, the ones who are in the over
crowded condition.
A Well, there is not an overcrowded condition there
simply because the portable buildings are located there.
Q How many portables do you have there, Mr. Parsons?
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A Oh, I'll say five, but I'm not sure.
Q Now, isn't it true that you also have portables at a
school within a few blocks of Pfiefer? The Carver School?
A I believe we have one there at Carver.
Q Two?
A Maybe two. I'm not sure.
Q Now, you did not afford those pupils a second choice,
either, did you?
A Well, the portable buildings are used, I believe, foi
special purposes. I'm talking about remedial reading, speech
therapy, and this type of program,
Q Mr. Parsons, have not you previously identified Cen-
tennial as a school which should be replaced?
A I'm not sure that I have.
Q You don’t remember.
A No, I do not.
Q In the Parsons Report, did not you identify Mitchell
as a school in need in replacement?
A I do not recall that we did.
Q But you may have. I'm asking.
A No, I do not recall at all that we did.
Q Now, about West Side, isn't it true that the student'
who would attend West Side Junior High School have almost no
play area, that the site is approximately four acres and that
the school structure occupies almost all of that area?
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A Yes, a very limited play area, other than indoor play
area. There is a gymnasium.
Q Isn't it true, though, that on the other hand, accor
ding to the Oregon Report, the junior high schools that have
been constructed in the western part of the city has at least
fourteen acres of land at every one of them?
A Well, this is certainly true in connection with Hen
derson and it's true in connection with Forest Heights; South
west, there is an elementary school, of course, constructed on
the same campus with Southwest Junior High School.
Q All right.
A This would probably be a true statement.
Q Isn’t it also true that you have approximately six
acres at Dunbar?
A I actually do not know.
Q Isn't it true, though, that in terms of access to am
from Dunbar, there is a major traffic artery which runs right
in front of the Dunbar School? Namely, Wright Avenue.
A Yes, Wright Avenue runs in front.
Q And that you do not have such conditions existing
around any of the white schools -- the formerly white schools?
A No, I could not say yes to that.
Q All right. At Henderson, you do not have a major
traffic artery around there, do you?
A Well, John Barrow Road is quite major, I would say.
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Q But it's not major to the extent that Wright Avenue
is, is it?
A I really do not know, not having made a traffic count.
q You hav en’t studied that traffic problem.
A No, I have not.
Q All right.
Now, Mr. Parsons, do you recall that I appeared befoit
the Board before the Parkview School contract was let and askec
the District not to construct Parkview School because of the
fact that at that time you had a large number of school, class
room seats unoccupied at Horace Mann High School?
A You have stated this to me previously, and I do not
doubt but that you may have done it; but you ask if I recall if
No, I do not.
q But it is true, though, that at the time you con
structed Parkview School, you had a large number of vacant
classrooms in the Horace Mann School building, at least 400?
1*11 put it another way, Mr. Parsons. What is the
enrollment at Horace Mann High School?
Last year?
Yes.
Slightly in excess of 800, I believe.
I think your figures show 801, Mr. Parsons.
I think it’s S02, but we'll not quibble around that.
All right. Now, this would mean that if Horace Mann
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Q
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502
had an efficiency capacity of 1400 and you had 801 pupils there
last year at the time Parkview was constructed, you had 600
vacant class seats at Horace Mann, isn't that true?
A By that analysis, that's true.
Q All right.
A I'm not sure that the analysis is correct because we
have expanded programs, have introduced team teaching, some
programmed instruction, some automated equipment in rooms not
only at Central, as we identified previously, but also in our
other high schools. Those programs do consume more space than
normal programs consume.
Q You consider, then, that it would be more -- it would
meet a greater need to build a new high school than it would to
use those funds for the construction of a junior high school,
is that true?
THE COURT: Now, they are in different sections of
the city entirely, Mr. Walker.
MR, WALKER: Your Honor, our position is that previou
testimony in this case indicates there is a conflict as to
whether Parkview was to have been opened as a junior high schoo
a senior high school, or as a school.
I think I)r. Goldhamraer' s testimony was that they said
the District needs new schools, and that they could go ahead
with that because of the fact that they needed schools, but
they did not specifically endorse that site as a high school
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site. So I am trying to demonstrate to the Court here that thi:
School District has mis-used District funds and built a new
school
THE COURT: Aren’t those schools eight or ten miles
apart?
MR. WALKER: Which schools?
THE COURT: Horace Mann and Parkview.
MR. WALKER: Perhaps so, Your Honor. But they are
denying that at all times up until 1957, there was just one
high school in this whole district, and that pupils, regardles:;
of where they lived -- maybe eight miles -- but pupils, regard
less of where they lived, had to attend Central High School if
they were white, or Dunbar if they were Negro. So that the
distance should not be really a relevant factor.
THE COURT: Now, that's a matter not --
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor, but I just want
to show there was no demonstrated need at the time that Parkvio
was built for a new high school.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Isn't it true, though, Mr. Parsons, that at present
you have vacant classrooms -- not classrooms, but you have unde
used classrooms at Horace Mann High School?
A I'm sure this is true.
Q All right. And isn't it true that you could have
taken the number of pupils who attend the Parkview School in
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grade ten and placed them into Horace Mann High School and not
caused an overcroivded situation to exist in any high school in
the city?
A No, I do not think that this is true?
Q And if, Mr. Parsons, just using arithmetic, you had
put 3S0 -- and that’s the number of pupils in the tenth grade ■
if you had put 350 more pupils in the Horace Mann School, would
you have had overcrowded conditions?
A No, probably not.
Q All right.
A But that was not your original question. To put then
in there, this would have involved either transportation or a
great difficulty on the part of students in terras of transpor
tation.
Q All right. Isn't it true, though, Mr. Parsons, that
historically, youngsters who live in this area to the west of
Parkview School, in an area known as John Barrow Addition, have
been bussed by the District all the way across to Horace Mann
High School?
A No, this is not true at the present time, nor has it
been for several years.
Q But it was in 1965 and 1966?
A Yes, it was.
Q And 1966-67?
A No, I'm not sure about that part of it.
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Q You don’t know that it was
A It was in 1965.
Q You don't know whether it was in 1966-67?
A No , I do not.
Q All right, Mr. Parsons, do you know whether any of
your predecessors ever made a statement to the effect that
Central High School will accommodate 2500 to 2600 students?
A No, I do not.
MR. WALKLR: Your Honor, I cite to the Court 143 Fed
Supp 861.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, do you still agree that most of th<
school buildings in Little Rock were constructed with the view
to perpetuating segregation rather than implementing desegre
gation?
A Yes.
Q Do you still agree that school buildings are located
as focal points in identified communities?
A Yes.
Q Do you still agree that this means that a Negro com
munity has a school so located in relationship to it that it
is sensible for Negro children, the children in that community,
to attend that school, the same as is true for white coramunitie
A Only when sensible is placed in quotes.
Q That's right. Mr. Parsons, do you still agree that
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there has been a constant shift of Negro pupils from the all-
Negro schools to predominantly white schools under the freedom
of choice plan?
A Yes.
Q And that there has not been a corresponding shift of
white pupils to Negro schools?
A Yes.
Q All right. Do you agree that this presents a buildii
problem, and that as fewer and fewer Negroes enroll in the
Negro schools, the effective buildings are used with less effi
ciency at the same time more and more facilities must be built
to accommodate the
A Oh, yes. Yes.
Q Now, doesn't this mean, Mr. Parsons, that as Negro
pupils left Negro schools, under the freedom of choice plan,
those buildings became under-utilized?
A Yes.
Q And that the District, instead of using those buil
dings to capacity by assigning white pupils to them, that the
District chose instead to build new schools to meet the expand
population?
A We built new schools under the freedom of choice pla
The zoning plan, as presented here today, will tend to effecti
and efficiently use those very same buildings about which you
are speaking.
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Q All right.
Now, Mr. Parsons, let me give you a hypothetical
proposition. Assume that you, as a professional educator, had
all or almost all of the Negro population on one side of Little;
Rock and all or almost all of the white population living on
the other side of Little Rock, and you wanted to achieve --
you don't have any schools, now, to begin with -- but you want
to place some schools so as to achieve the results of segregated
pupil enrollment. How would you do that? What are the avail-
able ways for achieving segregation in pupil attendance patten.
A Since I have never had to deal with a hypothetical
case like that, I do not know how it could be done.
Q What is the obvious result, Mr. Parsons, as an edu
cator? You have been qualified as an educator by your counsel
A The obvious result of a community that has housing
patterns of this nature that you're identifying?
Q Yes.
A Why, I suppose it would be a segregated community.
q Now, if you wanted -- the hypothetical goes to half
the community being black and half of it white -- if you wantec
to have integrated schools with pupils from both sides of the
street, so to speak, attending the same schools, how would you
go about doing that, Mr. Parsons?
A I would assume that you would build school buildings
and establish a system of transportation and transport them
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back and forth.
Q But the main thing, depending on the size of the com
munity, isn't it, is that you would locate the schools central
to the people to the pupils on both sides of the street, isn't
that true?
A Not necessarily, not if you had a system of transpor
tation .
Q Let's assume that you have a smaller community where
you don't need a transportation system and all the pup>ils live
within two miles of a central site, could you not, by locating
a school within the center of that area, assure that you will
have racial homogeneity?
A If you were drawing from both directions, yes.
Q All right.
Now, I just want to ask you whether the District has
ever had a policy of locating schools or planning future school
construction in such a manner as to achieve reasonable racial
balance in the schools?
A Not that I know of. Ke have had no policy of that.
Q Do you have any future policies for site selection al
all?
A No.
Q You do not have.
Nov/, Mr. Parsons, on your elementary school plan for
assignment of pupils, would you state to the Court whether this
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plan differs materially from the one that was presented to the
Court August 16th?
A Not materially- However, there are some slight dif
ferences involved.
Q There are slight differences.
Can you identify and thereafter explain those dif
ferences -- those variances?
A Perhaps one of the major differences that the area
around Stephens School, in order to get a better balance of
elementary pupils, both white and Negro, in Stephens as well as
the other elementary districts adjacent to Stephens, some
changes were made in these lines to achieve a better racial
balance.
Q Pardon me, Mr. Parsons.
MR. WALKER: I would like -- these were exhibits
introduced by you, Exhibits 12, 13 and 14. Do you have those?
THE COURT: The Clerk probably has them.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, may I ask the Court to come
over so Mr. Parsons can explain them to the Court.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, do you see that?
A Mr. Walker, 1 believe your question had to do with
elementary schools.
Q Yes.
A This is the high schools.
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Q I'm sorry.
This is Exhibit No. 12, by Defendant.
Now, fir. Parsons, I ask you whether the pupil atten
dance pattern under your proposed plan would differ any at the
Brady School. Could you show the Court the Brady School?
Under your proposed plan, there would be no Negroes
at Brady? I moan, under the first one presented, there would
no Negroes. The figures are the same, is that true?
A Mr. Walker -- do you have the list here? All right.
Q So that there is no change in the Brady attendance
area between August 16 and the present.
A No.
Q Now, I don't want to go over every last one of these
but I just want to take one or two other examples.
You say at Stephens, there is a change.
A Yes, there is.
Q Under the proposed plan, you would have 34 Negroes
and 313 whites, is that true?
A Yes.
Q Isn't it true that under your August 16 plan, you ha
365 Negroes and 83 whites?
A That's correct.
q And that your present plan reduced the percentage of
white pupils in Stephens School?
A Well, I have not converted it to a percentage, but t
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numbers are
Q The number is reduced by at least 49, isn't it?
A You mean the number of white pupils?
Q White pupils, yes.
A All right.
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, I cross examined you at length the
last time about why you did not submit to the Board for con
sideration your original plan, which is known as the Beta Com
plex, which would have called for the elimination of Stephens
as an all-Negro school and the integration, on a racial balance
point, all of the schools in the Beta Complex, which includes
Franklin, Lee, Stephens, Garland, and Oakhurst.
Why did you not submit such a plan again to the
Board, Mr. Parsons?
A This plan was submitted in the Parsons Plan, and the
Parsons Plan was soundly defeated at the polls, which indicates
to me that this would not be acceptable, to the community.
Q So your consideration there was that the community
did not accept this Beta Complex.
A There wre other considerations.
Q But that was one.
A That was one. But a primary consideration was the
fact that there was some expenditure of funds involved in the
creation of this complex in converting a building, an existing
building, from an elementary school building to create a coraple
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center.
certain
Q
I believe we proposed that to be the Leo School for
offices for special personnel.
Could not you, though, without any cost, have paired
those five schools and achieved a degree of racial balance
within each, different than the one that -- different than the
racial balance that would be achieved under your proposed plan'
A We could have proposed the same complex that was
proposed in the Parsons Plan, yes.
Q But the reason you didn’t, you’re saying, is that the
community would reject it.
THE COURT: He said that was one of them.
THE WITNESS: Along with another compelling reason,
and that is no funds are available to the District to prepare
this community and this area and the buildings located therein
as a complex.
MR. WALKER: My question, Your Honor, is that he did
not respond to it.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Could you not have accomplished pairing, using the
saine sites that you have, and the same schools that you have,
without any cost?
A We think that it probably could have been done, but
it could not. have been as successfully and as effectively done
as if there were funds available to do some of the things to
create innovative programs that we planned to do under our
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original plan.
Q So that, without doing your innovative programs, you
could have accomplished the physical results, Negro pupils bein
in a racial minority in every last one of those five schools,
if you use them as school buildings.
A If you just wanted to throw something out and operate
it without any real basic good planning, yes, you could have
done that.
Q Do you call the original Parsons Plan, the Beta Com
plex that I’m talking about, not a good plan?
A No, I do not.
Q Mow does the plan that I 'ia proposing, the pairing
plan, differ from your own Parsons Plan as applied to the Beta
Complex?
A There is no -- there are no funds available at the
present time with which to prepare the buildings and the com
munity for this complex.
Q All right. How much money would it take to prepare
the community for that concept, Mr. Parsons?
A I do not know.
Q You have not run a cost analysis?
A No. No, 1 have not.
Q How much would it take to remodel the buildings --
first, what remodelling, specifically, would have to be done
and what buildings?
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A We would have to study the enrollment that would
exist in this area in 1969-70 to come up with a reasonable
figure as to what it would cost to remodel the buildings to
adequately take care of that enrollment.
Q But you have not prepared a cost analysis?
A No, we have not, because we did not propose this in
our plan.
Q ! see. Now, Hr. Parsons, isn't it true that if you
wanted to operate each one of those schools more or less with
the same pupil populations as they had, you could draw the
attendance boundaries in this area in such a way as to bring
about racial balance, reasonable racial balance, within each
one of those schools without any more cost?
A No, I do not think this is true, not without creating
hardships on pupils in terms of distance.
Q It would be a hardship in terms of distance, is that
right?
A Yes.
Q All right, now, I notice, Mr. Parsons, with all this
talk which you reiterated, that Stephens is located in a Negro
neighborhood there and located within the midst of those four
white neighborhoods, is that true?
A Yes.
Q Now, the pupils are all within reasonable proximity
of each other, isn’t that true?
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A You’re talking about the five schools now?
Q Yes.
A Reasonable proximity.
Q All right. Now, the hardships would be on pupils in
walking to and from school, is that right?
A Yes.
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, I notice that you had the Terry
School here, and that obviously a number of pupils -- all of
whom are white -- live a far greater distance from Terry than
these pupils, any pupils, in the Beta Complex from any one
school.
A There happens not to be another elementary school in
the Terry area.
Q All right, but nonetheless the hardships are there,
aren’t there, Mr. Parsons, to be encountered by pupils wherever
they attend a public school system, and one of them is trans
portation.
A You would not consider it a hardship if a pupil lived
directly across the street from a school but had to go ten or
twelve blocks to another school. That is not a hardship.
Q Are you saying
A I'm saying that if we ran the line vertical, as you
suggested in the last hearing, that there is only one block
difference between the vertical distance between the two buildi
and to run a vertical line between the two buildings would
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require each building to draw all of its enrollment either from
the right or from the left, one building drawing from the right
and the other building drawing from the left.
THE COURT: I certainly don’t want to pursue that
subject again.
DY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, I notice that according to your
figures, Garland lias an optimum capacity of 390, but under your
plan, there will be 322 pupils in attendance there, which
means that Garland could, without being overcrowded, accommo
date the difference between 322 and 390.
A All right.
Q But the other schools, Franklin has a capacity of 666
and under your plan, they would have 587 pupils, which means
that Franklin could accommodate another 80 pupils, approximate:
A All right, I'll accept that.
Q what are the other two schools there that are pre
dominantly white?
A Garland and --
Q Oakhurst.
A All right. Oakhurst.
Q And what is the other one?
A Lee.
Q Lee has a capacity of 393 without being overcrowded
And under your plan you will have 289, which means that you car
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accommodate another one hundred pupils in that school.
A All right.
Q What then, Mr. Parsons, would be the difficulty in
having those schools reorganized in this manner: all the pupil
in grades one through five would attend either Franklin, Lee,
Garland, Oakhurst; and the remaining students in grades six to
ten, Stephens? What cost would be involved in that?
A I do not know. We have never considered this as a
plan. I do not know the cost.
Q All right, that could physically, though, be done,
couldn’t it, Mr. Parsons?
A I wouldn't say until I had an opportunity to study it
I don’t think that I could afford to write a plan while I'm on
the witness stand.
Q I understand. But you have not considered that altei
native.
A No, we have not.
Q All right. Has the subject of Hall High School been
one of considerable discussion and controversy in the School
Baord meetings in the last two or three years?
A Isn't it true, Mr. Parsons, there have been a number
of witnesses appear before the Board and set out that they
believe it is unfair for Central High School to bear all the
burden of integration -- if it is a burden -- while Hall High
School did not bear any of it?
518
A There have been a few people who said this, yes.
Q Haven't you yourself identified that as being a prob
lent?
A Yes.
Q Why is that a problem, Mr. Parsons?
A I have no idea why it's a problem.
Q Well, why would you identify it as a problem if you
don’t have any idea why it is a problem?
A There are a lot of problems that we have that we
don’t know why they’re problems, but they are. I do not know
why it’s a problem. It just is.
Q Is it a desirable situation to have that kind of an
imbalance at Hall High School?
A I think that depends entirely upon the individual
who is evaluating it as desirable or undesirable.
Q How would you evaluate it, Mr. Parsons? As undesira$l
Desirable?
A As undesirable.
Q Yet you can't tell me why it is undesirable.
A Yes, sir, I can toll you why it is undesirable to me,
hut it might not be the same reason why it is undesirable to
you.
Q All right, would you tell me why it is undesirable to
you, as Chief Administrator of the Little Rock Schools?
A We feel that Hall High School ought to have some
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Negro students enrolled in that particular high scicol because
there are Negro students enrolled in most of the other high
schools in the system.
q Isn’t it true that in order to meet that undesirable
aspect of the school system as it is presently operated that y o :
proposed a plan to bring about some racial balance in Hall High
School?
A Are you talking about the Parsons Plan?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q Now, would the Parsons Plan have used the same basic
zoning formula, as the present zoning plan?
A No.
Q I see. Instead of north-south zoning, you would have
cast-west zoning, is that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q And if you had east-west zoning, isn’t it true that
the racial balance at Hall would be different than it is now?
A Yes.
Q Now, isn’t it true that you could also draw the lines
around Horace Mann High School so as to have a larger amount, of
pupils on an east-west basis than 66 white pupils in Horace
Mann High School?
A Well, you likely could. However, we have never done
this. We have not tested this to see whether or not it could
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feasibly be done.
Q I call you attention, then, to the plan that you
presented back in August, and ask you Xv'hcther, at the high
school level, the plan that you have prepared at present result:
in less integration at Horace Mann High School than the plan
that you prepared and presented to the Court in August?
A No, the plan as presented here results in more inte
gration.
Q At Horace Mann High School?
A Yes.
Q Well, in the present plan, Mr. Parsons, isn’t it true
that under your projections for 1969-70, you would have 66
white pupils at Horace Mann High School?
A That's true.
Q All right, and the plan that you presented in August
would have 233 white pupils?
A Yes, but, Mr. Walker, you fail to take into consider*
tion the fact that under the plan that we have presented here,
we are giving -- and we think that this is proper to do this - -
we are giving preemptive rights of students to finish those
schools in which they are presently enrolled in high school.
We are talking about geographical zoning, and if you
will examine the plan that was presented in August, you will
find that the line between Central and Mann High Schools was
on State Street to Roosevelt -- coming from north to south--
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State Street to Roosevelt, and from Roosevelt over to High, an<
from High down to the District line, while this plan calls for
the line being moved rather radically to the left, taking more
of the Central High School District into the Mann zone.
Q Mr. Parsons, my question, though, is that if the Coui
had required you to implement that plan in September, would no;
you have had more numerical desegregation at Horace Mann High
School than you have under the proposed plan?
A We did not file with the Court, if I understand it
correctly, a detailed plan in terms of the actual number of
students that would be involved in this change of method of
assignment of pupils in our system.
Q What do you call this, Mr. Parsons?
A Well, this is what was filed here, but we did not
even go into the preemptive rights of any students to remain
in the schools where they were presently assigned.
Q I see. So you do not feel it was a full plan in
August as
THE COURT: I understand what the viewpoint of each
of you is, and I do not think we are getting anywhere.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q All right, Mr. Parsons, let me ask you whether you
propose to give freedom of choice to the pupils who are now in
grades ten and eleven to remain in the schools which they now
attend or to attend a school within their attendance zones, as
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as it has been proposed?
A That is what the plan calls for.
Q For pupils in grades ten and eleven.
A Yes.
Q And you also propose to give those rights to pupils
in grade eight.
A That is correct.
Q But you do not propose to give that kind of choice to
pupils in grades five and six.
A No, we do not.
Q Now, do you, on the basis of history, have any reason
to believe that any of the white youngsters who now attend
Central High School who live in the Horace Mann attendance area
will choose to attend the Horace Mann High School?
A I have no idea. This would be purely a prediction.
I do not know.
Q On the basis of your experience, what do you think
would be the reason?
A My only answer would be that under freedom of choice,
not any have chosen to.
Q Isn't it true that under this plan, too, you would
have fewer Negro pupils in Hall High School than you would hav«
had under the plan you presented to the Judge in September?
A Well, I haven't really checked to see. I don’t know
of any reason why we wouldn’t, Mr. Walker. This shows 140B
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white, three Negroes, I would assume that surely the same
number would be involved in this plan.
Q Have you ever proposed a plan to increase the number
of Negroes in Hall High School?
A Oh, yes.
Q What happened to that plan, Mr. Parsons?
A It was defeated by the electorate.
Q It was defeated by the electorate.
Have you ever, subsequent to that, to either one of
those elections, proposed any other plan which would have
increased the extent of desegregation at Hall High School?
A We have not proposed a plan in terms of development
of a full plan. However, we have made suggestions and tried or
for size with our Board of Directors proposals that would have
increased the number of Negro students in Hall High School, yes
Q I see. I hand you a document and ask you to identify
it, Mr. Parsons.
A These are basically tables showing what would be the
result of the implementation of a zoning plan that was prepared
-- I think not in multiple copies. I'm talking about the map
-- and that was submitted to a meeting of our Board on October
10th.
Q I see. Would that plan have put 80 Negro pupils at
Hall High School?
A Yes, I believe that is correct.
Q Was that plan defeated?
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A No.
Q Why was it abandoned, then, as an alternative?
A This was, in the first place, not a plan. It was not
submitted as something that was a final plan that we were sub
mitting for approval or disapproval. It was submitted for
discussion; in the process of discussing this plan, we became
convinced -- by ‘'we", I’m talking about the administration --
that there was some dissatisfaction with the plan on the part
of members of the Board, and there developed some dissatisfact:
with the plan on our own part.
Consequently,, a new plan, a new map, was developed
and new tables were prepared in multiple, multiple times, not
just one time, but many tables and many maps were prepared,
and were changed many times subsequent to this plan.
Q Did you yourself determine that a majority of the
Board would not support a plan, this plan, to put eighty Negro
students into the Hall High School area?
A This plan was never voted on at all. Expressions of
opinions from Board members and expressions of opinions from
other staff members indicated that we should re-study this mat
ter and develop another plan.
Q Isn't it true that Mr. Drummond made a motion that
this plan be adopted and it was seconded by Mr. Patterson?
A I do not recall this. This may well be true.
Q At the November 15th meeting?
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A On November 15th?
Q Yes.
A I thought, you were still back on October 10th.
Q No. On November 15th, did Mr. Drummond make such a
motion?
A I believe he did, probably.
Q And did Mr. Patterson second it? And a substitute
motion by Mr. Charlie Brown, seconded by Mr. Jis Jenkins, was
made to the effect that this plan be rejected and the present
plan, which is before the Court, be adopted?
A If that's what the minutes would reflect, I'm sure ii
is.
Q I see. And that your vote on that plan was five per
sons in favor of the substitute motion, and two persons against
it.
A Right.
Q Those two persons being in favor of the first plan.
A Right.
Q Did this plan that you submitted represent good cdu-
cational planning?
A Now, which plan are you talking about?
Q The one that was rejected \y the five Board members.
A Yes, we think it represented good educational planni;
Admittedly, there were areas in the plan where pupils were goi
to be required to go rather long distances to schools, in one
area in particular -- I'm sure that's the one you have referen
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to.
Q Now, is the plan that you presented after having been
instructed by the Board to present the recommendations to the
full Board by which to comply with this Court's directive of
August 17?
A Are you talking .about the plan of October 10?
Q Yes, I'd like to have
A You need to identify these so I'll know which plan
you're talking about.
Q All right.
MR. WALKER: Let me mark this for identification.
This would be Defendant's Exhibit -- Plaintiff's Exhibit No.
2, Your Honor.
(The document referred to was marked
2Plaintiff's Exhibit No. for
identification.)
BY MR. WALKER:
q This plan, Mr. Parsons.
A All right, I think we're using the word "plan" a lit
bit loosely.
Q Well, it was described by Mr. Drummond in his state
ment, isn't that true, as a plan?
A It probably was.
Q Now, this --
THE COURT: How did you identify that?
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5 2S
MR. WALKER: This is Plaintiff's Exhibit 2, Your
Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, would you give us some identification
for this -- I don't know quite how to describe it, if you don1':
call it a plan.
THE COURT: As of what date? Or does it have a date"
MR. WALKER: As of October 10.
THE WITNESS: October 10, someone has said.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, I want to ask you now whether you have
had your staff determine whether the extent of desegregation
would be greater under this particular plan than would be
achieved or was achieved under freedom of choice and, if so,
would you state how the results differ?
A Actually, we have not made an analysis of this. How
ever, suffice it to say that we are convinced that there would
be greater desegregation under the zoning plan than under
freedom of choice as it is currently operating.
Freedom of choice has not served to eliminate the
all-Negro schools in the system while this zoning plan would
eliminate every all-Negro school, with the possible exception
of one, and it is possible that one would be eliminated if
some of the white teachers assigned there took their children
there for their education.
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529
Q But it would be still an insignificant number of
white pupils in the Negro schools -- in that Negro school.
A Kell* I would not know how it x^ould be insignificant
in terras of the total enrollment, but I would not know how man)
children the white teachers assigned to teach in that school
might have.
Q Let's compare the present plan with freedom of choice,
Mr. Parsons. First, let's compare the present plan with the
freedom, of choice plan that's in operation.
A All right.
Q And look at the results.
Now, would you admit that under freedom of choice,
we have only four all-white pupil populated elementary schools?
And they are Fair Park, Jefferson --
A If you're looking at a report that was put out by our
offices, why, I would agree with that.
Q Under your proposed plan, you have eight all-white
elementary schools?
A Tentative.
Q But the only way they would have any Negro pupils in
those schools would be teachers who are Negro teachers within
those schools brought their children to those schools?
A True.
Q So you would have more all-white schools without that
aspect being introduced into it under the proposed plan than you
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53-
have under the present freedom of choice plan.
A hut our plan calls for the introduction of this
aspect.
Q I understand that; but let's assume that no teachers
in those schools take their children to those schools,, or have
no children, you would have more all-white schools under your
proposed plan at the elementary level than you had under freed
of choice.
A I would much prefer, of course, to assume that they
will have children and will take them there.
Q But can you answer my question?
A What is your question?
THE COURT: That they have no children or didn't tak
them there.
THE WITNESS: If they had no children or didn't take
them there, would you have more or less?
BY MR. WALKER:
Q More all-white schools.
A You would have more all-white schools.
Q Now, isn't it true that the same result would apply
at Henderson Junior High School, that you would have no Negro
pupils at Henderson? And that Henderson would become an all-
white school while it is not an all-white school under freedoi
of choice?
A Unless --
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Q Unless the teachers
A Yes.
Q Now, isn't it true that, according to what you know
about what community attitudes have been expressed to you, Mr.
Parsons, that you can expect the minority of white pupils who
will be assigned to Horace Mann High School or their parents
to try to find ways to get from Horace Mann High School into a
school in which their race predominates?
A No, I could not agree with that statement.
Q Mr. Parsons, did you say that that was likely, and
that in fact did happen at the Mitchell School?
A Mr. Walker, this was prior to the time that we had
developed any plan whatsoever or any meaningful faculty desegr
gation; related to this plan of student zoning is a plan for
meaningful faculty desegregation, which means that at least
55 per cent of the faculty at Mann High School will be white
and 1 cannot see why pupils, who are necessarily zoned into th
Mann area, wanting to, quote, escape, close quote, from a good
faculty such as we doubtless would have at Mann High School
involving a majority of faculty members who are of the white
pupil's own race.
Q But, Mr. Parsons, can you tell us is that situation
any different because at Mitchell, in 1368-69, that flight has
continued despite the fact that you have eleven white teachers
at Mitchell and three Negro teachers there?
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A I think there is a difference.
Q Would you explain it, please?
A Yes. Mitchell was an all-white school at one time
in the history of this school district, and through the process
of attrition, evidently, of white people and through in-migratio
of Negro families, it became a predominantly Negro school.
We are not talking about in relationship to Mann High
School; we are not talking about a change in neighborhood pat
terns. We are merely talking about a change in the re-organiza
tion and staffing of a school, and we think that the staffing
of this school with the present re-organization of the zones
will result in people remaining in the zone in which they find
themselves.
Q 1 see. Now, the re-organization will be minor at
Mitchell, isn't .it true, in that while you have three Negro
teachers there now, you will only have five Negro teachers
there in 1969-70, while you now have eleven white teachers
there, and you will have ten white teachers in Mitchell next
year under your proposed plan?
A Right.
Q So that the faculty situation has always been one
where the white teachers predominated, is that not true?
A Yes, it has, at Mitchell.
Q Mr. Parson, you have stated in the Parsons Report
that the community is organized more or less on a neighborhood
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basis and that, as Negroes begin to infiltrate -- and you used
that terra -- the white neighborhoods, the whites began to leave
Do you recall that?
A Yes, I do,
Q All right, now, isn't it true that this is a phenom
enon that has to be taken into account in saying whether or not
the white pupil population is going to remain stable at Horace
Mann High School, when you have only 66 white pupils out of
roughly a thousand?
A I really do not think so. We are not talking about,
quote, infiltration, quote closed. We are talking about a
stable, hopefully, population, and the change is not going to
be in the community; the change is going to be in the organi
zational structure of the school system and the staffing of it
THE COURT: All right. I have heard enough about thu
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, you are familiar with the literature on
the subject of de facto segregation, right?
A I am certainly not acquainted with all of it.
Q Well, some of it.
A Yes.
Q Are you familiar with the document known as "Racial
Isolation in Public Schools"?
A Yes, I’ve heard of the document.
Q Have you read it?
A I have read extracts from it, but I have not read it
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In its entirety,
Q Are you aware of the fact that it is concluded in
here that when white pupils comprise a minority of a given scho
pupil population in a community where their race is in the
majority, that those white pupils will seek to find ways to
again get into a majority situation?
A Without knowing for sure, I would assume that assume
that that research did not involve a complete re-organization
of the staff of the school.
THE COURT: I have told you I *ve heard all I want to
hear, now, about that subject.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, as changes are concerned, isn't it true, Mr.
Parsons, that the schools which are located in Negro neighbor
hoods, to wit: schools such as Carver, Ish, Gilliam, Granite
Mountain, Pfiefer, Rightsell, Stephens, under your plan,
Washington, and Ish, would have more than ninety per cent black
students in them?
A I have not calculated this, but if you have, that
may well be true.
Q All right, isn’t it true that in terms of the number
of Negro pupils who would be attending schools in which their
race was in a minority would diminish under your present plan?
A Yes, I believe that there would be fewer pupils, at
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53S
least within a period of two or three years, that would be
attending -- Negro pupils attending schools where their race
was in the minority than we are currently experiencing under
the freedom of choice plan.
Q So that freedom, of choice really would produce a
greater degree of desegregation?
A Oh, no. Ho, under freedom of choice, we have contiru i
to have all-Negro schools, and under the plan which we propose,
this would eliminate all of the al1-Negro schools with the pos
sible; exception of one. And I have been convinced for a long
time that integration means the total number of pupils who are
having the experience of an integrated education, so if we have
6,000 Negro pupils who are currently not having the experience
of an integrated education, and under this plan begin to have
an experience of an integrated education, then we have increase
integration within our school system treraenucusly.
Q Mr. Parsons, what is your present definition of a
Negro school?
A I don't have any.
Q Now, would not -- could not a formerly all-Negro
school be identifiable by the following factors:
A Negro principal, a largely predominant Negro pupi1
enrollment, the location in an identifiable Negro neighborhood,
naming the school, the particular school, with names or initial
started as a Negro school?
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A I think all of these would contribute toward the
identification of a school as a Negro school.
Q And also the fact that that school had a proportion,
under your plan, of Negro teachers higher than the formerly
white schools?
A I do not think that this would necessarily contribute
to this.
Q You don't have any other definition of a Negro school
than the one I have given you?
A No, I think you covered it very well.
Q Do you have an opinion, as the administrator of this
schod system, as to whether the pupil balance that you have set
forth here, would be maintained for several years, or whether
re-segregation will occur?
A I have no idea.
Q Has your opinion changed from the time that you wrote
the Parsons Plan?
A I do not think you should relate the two opinions.
In fact, at the time the Prrsons Plan was submitted, there was
no plan for comprehensive faculty desegregation. I go back to
my previous statement, that faculty desegregation will, in our
judgment, tend, to stabilize the community.
Q Let's talk, then, for a moment about faculty desegre
gation. The Court directed the District to prepare a plan to
bring about racial balance in the facility, unless it could come
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up with a better plan.
Do you here take the position that the plan you have
come up with is a better plan than a racial balance plan?
A I take the position, until shown differently, that ii:
is a racially balanced plan.
Q Nov,', .Mr. Parsons, you say that this is a racially
balanced plan, but I ask you if it isn’t true that while the
ratio of white teachers to Negro teachers at the high school
level is 82 to 18, that this balance is more or less reflected
only at the formerly white schools or predominantly white
schools and not reflected at the Horace Mann High School?
A I really do not understand your question.
Q All right. White 18 per cent of the Negro teachers
of teachers at the high school level are Negro, you have moi
or less, within the three point range that you mention, that
range of Negro teachers at Central, Hall, Metropolitan and
Parkview.
A All right.
Q But you have 29 per cent of the faculty of Mann High
School being Negro.
A Right.
Q Would not, then, one be able to identify Horace Mann
High School as a Negro school because of the fact that you have
a much higher percentage of Negro faculty at that school, in
addition to the other facts that I’ve named, such as the locatic
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of the school, the preponderance of Negro pupils, the initial
beginning of the school?
A I do not think the mere fact that a school has 29 per
cent of its total faculty Negro would identify it as a Negro
school, no.
Q But that's a comparative thing, isn't it, Mr. Parsons
A I don't think it's comparative.
Q All right, Mr. Parsons.
I notice that at the junior high school level roughly
27 per coat of all the teachers are Negro and 73 per cent are
white, but that at the two formerly all-Negro schools, 43 per
cent or 44 per cent of the faculty of both those schools happen
to be Negro, whereas no more than 22 per cent of the faculty
of the other formerly white schools happen to be Negro.
A Mr. Walker, we make absolutely no apology for this.
We are attempting to develop a plan that will fall within the
guidelines which we have proposed to the Court for the first
year that will prevent us from losing any more teachers than we
absolutely have to.
I testified this morning that this is not something
that we are kept busy all day long with teachers knocking on
the door saying, ”1 want to do this.” This is an unpleasant
and an uncomfortable experience for teachers. Consequently,
we have no desire to make any more of them uncomfortable and
unhappy about it than we have to.
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Q So you.would not bring about strict racial balance
because of the morale of the teachers.
A be think that any time you have a segment of your
faculty that is -- that has a ratio of 18 to 82, that if you
agreed to go to IS and 85, you have essentially brought about
racial balance.
Q My question, though, is that you have not placed, in
terms of percentages, Negroes or white teachers in the formerly
Negro schools in higher percentages, or Negro teachers in
formerly white schools in higher percentages, because of the
fact that the teachers are opposed to integration.
A 1 didn't say the teachers are opposed to integration
at all.
q Well, that they are opposed to teaching in situation:;
where their race is in a minority.
A No, I didn’t say that.
q Well, how do you account then, Mr. Parsons, for the
fact that Southwest has only 20 per cent of its faculty being
Negro while Booker has 44 per cent of its faculty being Negro?
Is there any justification for that?
A Yes.
Q Other than morale of teachers.
A Mr. Walker, we are not talking about whether or not
a teacher wants to teach where her race is in the minority, or
doesn’t want to teach. V.’e are talking about the fact that no
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teacher who is happy and comfortable where she is now teaching
wants to move, regardless of where it may be. It may he an
all-Negro school or a;- all-v/hite school or an integrated schoo:
but she just doesn’t want to move. She is acclimiated and hapj
and comfortable in the position that she is now occupying.
Q Is there any other reason that you have for not
transferring her?
A I think we don’t really need any other reason, than
this.
Q Are the teachers that you are going to place in
minority situations happy with their move?
A We do not know. We have not identified these teacher
Q I see. So that you are going to make some teachers
unhappy and then some others happy.
A We probably will.
THE COURT: Let’s pass on to another subject.
MR. WALKER: All right.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q You don’t have any other educational justification
for it, though.
THE COURT: I said let's pass on to another subject.
BY MR. WALKER:
q i notice that the elementary school level, 35 per ccr
of the faculty in the total system is Negro.
A Right.
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Q Whereas 65 per cent of the faculty would be white.
Is that right?
A That's correct.
Q Mr. Parsons, I notice again that, as I look down the
list of schools, that all of the former Negro schools have no
less than 41 per cent of their faculty being Negro, while no
formerly white school has that much or that many higher per
centage of Negro teachers. Is that true?
A Yes, that's true.
Q Is there any other justification for this result that
the one that you have mentioned with regard to the junior high
schools?
A Identically the same justification.
Q Now, Mr. Parsons, you have stated this isn't the idea
situation, but this is the most that you can accomplish, isn't
that true?
A Where have I stated that?
Q In your earlier depositions, Mr. Parsons.
A All right.
Q What is the ideal, Mr. Parsons?
A I really do not know. I think the ideal, probably,
would be to do what we arc doing, and then employ people rather
than white or Negro, and then assign them to positions as peopl
and qualified teachers, rather than white or Negro people, and
this is the plan that we intend to follow.
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Q Do you recall making a statement to the effect that
you do not have a plan to be implemented for future years, thai
"we are submitting a plan at the present time to achieve the
goal which we have filed with the Court as a goal which we will
receive, develop plans to employ people without regard to race
on the basis of their qualifications", et cetera, "hoping that
this will produce greater faculty desegregation than we would
experience the first year"?
A Yes.
Q So that you do see more to be achieved by way of
bringing about racial balance?
A It would be foolish, I think, for me to sit here and
say that we would not sensitive to the needs in this area. We
will be sensitive to it. At the same time, we will employ and
assign without regard to race.
Q All right, then, Mr. Parsons.
You have had --
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, do you have much more on cron
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I just wanted to go over the
other alternatives that he has mentioned to try to demonstrate
the Court the degree of desegregation that would be achieved
under each, and inquire of him --
THE COURT: Are you talking about faculty or what?
MR. WALKER: Faculty, for the most part, we have
finished. We’re talking about pupils now.
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BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, you have started to explain what you
described as the Walker Plan, and you stated to the Court that
that plan would have pupils moving from one school to the other
every year, is that correct?
A Not all the pupils, no.
Q I mean, basically, though, pupil would start, say,
under the ’Walker Plan in, say, Hall High School, in grade eleve
and he would not remain there for both his school years. Is
that the way you see the plan?
A This would happen to approximately one-third of the
pupils under my conception of the plan.
Q Under that plan,isn’t it true, Mr. Parsons, that the:-
would be grade re-organization at all levels and that you woul<
have two schools to accommodate the entire population, Hall
High School and Horace Mann High School?
A All right.
Q And then that pupils would be assigned to Hall High
School, who live in certain areas, and that they would stay in
that school from grade eleven through grade twelve, and that
the same would be true in the Horace Mann attendance area?
A No, I did not interpret it that way.
Q You did not interpret that.
When was the last time you read my plan, Mr. Parsons'
A Day before yesterday.
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Q Did you read it in detail, Mr. Parson?
A Yes, I did.
Q Are you aware of the fact that another school distric
Pine Bluff, has decided to adopt more or less the same concept
that is proposed for the high school grades here?
A 1 am aware of the fact that Pine Bluff has submitted
a plan of desegregation, yes. I am not aware of the fact that
is patterned after your plan.
Q I'm not saying that it is patterned after my plan,
Mr. Parsons. I'm saying that it calls for grade re-organizatio
to your knowledge
A Yes.
Q -- and that the grades being re-organized are grades
eleven and twelve in the former Pine Bluff High School --
A Yes.
Q -- and grades nine and ten in the formerly Negro
schools, and grades seven and eight in the formerly white junio
high schools. Is that true?
A As far as I know, it is.
Q Mr. Parsons, do you perceive this plan as having
basically the same idea?
A No, I don't .
Q Mr. Parsons, isn’t it true that any plan that you
come up with will produce a number of administrative difficult:.
A I'm sure that it would.
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Q Isn't it also true that any plan that you come up
with produce or require financial expenditures?
A No.
Q What plan won't require financial expenditures?
A A zoning plan, such as this, will not.
Q A zoning plan such as this will not require any mone>
A That's correct.
Q That is the only plan that won't require any money.
A As far as I know, Mr. Walker, it is the only plan
which does not require money.
Q But under your plan, isn't it true that you are goin£
to have to, sooner or later, in order to provide equality of edi
cation for all pupils in the District, replace a number of the
central city schools, the East Side schools
A As I have previously testified, the sooner we can do
this, the better we would like it. We would like to build
some new schools, yes.
Q Isn't is also an element of your plan that you are
going to provide compensatory eduction for pupils who live in
the eastern part of the city with achievement levels below thai
of the pupils in the western part of the city?
A It is not a part of the plan that we have filed with
the Court.
q But isn't it a part of your present operation?
A Yes, it is.
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Q You are spending large amounts of money now, isn’t
it true, for compensatory eduction for youngsters in what's
known as the Model Cities area, the east side?
A We are spending what might be classified as large
amounts of Federal funds that are designated for that purpose
and which could not be expended for any other purpose, yes.
Q How much is that, Mr. Parsons?
A About -- slightly in excess of half a million dollars
annually.
Q And isn't it true that you have stated to m e and the
Court that the District is also spending some of its own money
for compensatory education?
A Yes, we are spending some of our School District's
money, the tax funds, but it’s nominal compared to the amount
that's being spent under Title I.
Q Is that money that you are using for compensatory
education being spent under what's known as the I. T. A.
program?
A Oh, you might classify some of the funds spent for
I. T. A. as compensatory.
Q Tell us, if you would, what we mean by I. T. A.?
A That's the Initial Teaching Alphabet, which is a
phonetic spelling approach to the English language for first
and pre-first children.
Q Isn’t it true that I. T. A. is now being conducted
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only in predominantly Negro schools?
A I'm not sure that this is true, Mr. Walker.
Q Do you know of any white schools in which it is
identified as being tried?
A No, frankly, I do not know the names of any, quote,
Negro schools, close quotes.
Q Isn't it true that it is being used in Carver?
A Well, it probably is. If you know that it is, I
would -- I will agree with you.
THE COURT: Now, let's don't get into an argument.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, did you ever speak to the Carver P.T.A.
about the I. T. A. program?
A I think not.
Q You don't recall it?
A No.
Q Now, isn't it true, Mr. Parsons, that the cost of the
so-called Walker Plan, according to your projections, would
have been roughly a half million dollars per year?
A For transportation only.
Q And isn’t it true that, according to other state
ments of yours, that at least sixty per cent of that money
would have been given to the city by the State Department of
Education?
A Under the plan that we propose, we estimated sixty
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per cent of transportation costs would be payable by the State
yes. We are not assured nor were we assured then nor would
we be assured now that sixty per cent of the Walker Plan would
be refunded by the State.
Q Have you had a cost analysis run on the so-called
Walker Plan?
A No.
Q Have you had a cost analysis run on any of the alter
natives available that you have considered?
A Oh, yes.
Q All right, would you tell me which plan that you con
sidered that you made a cost analysis of?
A Well, we made a cost analysis on a plan that came to
be known as the Parsons Plan.
Q I mean subsequent to this Court's order of August
17th.
A We have not.
Q You have not made a cost analysis of any plan.
A No, sir.
Q So you don't know how much it would cost to implement
any plan other than this particular plan, which you say would
cost nothing.
A I have some ideas, of course; if we sat down and
analyzed the recommendations in the plan, we certainly could
come up with some general ideas on cost.
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Q But the Board of Directors has not directed you to
prepare a cost analysis?
A No, sir, they have not.
Q A cost analysis of the alternatives available.
Are you aware of the fact that under certain circum
stances, there is Federal money available to transport student:
A No, I am not aware of that.
Q Now, the Parsons Plan itself called for transportati<
of students from the east side to the west side.
A That’s correct.
Q And right now isn't it true that pupils who live in
the Meadowcliff area, through using their own financial resouri
charter a bus to be taken to Meadowcliff -- to be taken from
Meadowcliff to Central High School?
A I'm not aware of the fact that they do, but they
probably do.
Q And aren't there in the city numbers of parents who
bus their pupils to the school or schools which their children
attend?
A Are you talking about riding a city bus?
Q Well, not riding a city bus. I'm saying, perhaps a
contract with Houston-Bigelow.
A There probably are several, yes.
Q And are you familiar with the private institutions
in the city?
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THE COURT: With what?
MR. WALKER: Private institutions in the city.
THE WITNESS: I'm acquainted with some of them.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Are you familiar with the fact that there is what is
known as an Episcopal school in the central part of the city?
A Yes.
Q Are you familiar with the fact that those pupils are
transported mostly from the west and other parts of the city?
A No, I was not aware of this.
Q You are not?
A No.
Q Are you also aware of the fact that large numbers of
pupils in this city are already being bused at their own expen*
A No.
Q Isn't it true that pupils who live in the east side,
who happen to be white, for the most part are bused? Usually
at their own expense, of course, to the West Side Junior High
School?
A I am not aware of this.
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, you realize you are making a
great many statements in the guise of questions which the witne
is not answering, and the statements you are making are not a
part of this record.
MR. WALKER: Well, I am asking if he is aware of it.
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THE COURT: I understand that.
MR. WALKER: And in his answers, he is saying that he
is not aware of it. I would think, Your Honor, that we would
have to prove it otherwise in order to be certain that it does
exist.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Now, you have stated that zoning at present is the
only feasible alternative to freedom of choice as a pupil assig
ment method.
A Yes, sir.
Q Would zoning have beena feasible alternative to free •
dom of choice in, say, 1967-68?
A Without money?
Q Without money.
A Yes, it would, probably.
Q What about 1965-66?
A Yes, I think so.
Q I hand you Defendant's Exhibit No. 8, and ask you
if you can identify Defendant's Exhibit No. 8 in this proceedin
which is LR-64-C-155, which sets out what the racial compositio i
of each school would have been had zoning been implemented in
1965?
A I really don’t know. Is that an exhibit in this?
THE COURT: I don't think it is. I think Mr. Walker
means is that this was in an earlier stage of this case.
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MR. WALKER: It might be, Your Honor, but I picked
it up out of the record the other day, and I was surprised to
find that --
THE COURT: I don’t think it is Defendant's No. 8
in this situation.
MR. WALKER: All right.
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, do you think you can finish
with him by 3:00 o'clock?
MR. WALKER: I'm going to do my best, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I didn't ask that.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I don't think so.
THE COURT: We are going to take a recess, and we
are going to take twenty minutes after we resume, and then you
are going to be through, Mr. Walker.
(A brief recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Walker.
Mr. Walker, we are covering a great many things we
covered the last time. Some of it is unduly repetitive. I
think you have likely exhausted every possibility of this sub
ject. I am going to give you twenty minutes; you are not
required to use it all, but at that time, cross examination
will cease.
MR. WALKER: For the record, Your Honor, I would lik<
to respectfully object to the limiting of my testimony by the
Court, and state in support of that that the direct oxaminatio:
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this morning by Mr. Friday lasted for approximately two hours
and that the cross examination has not lasted for any longer
period of time than Mr. Friday’s direct examination.
THE COURT: I think you are mistaken about that, but
at any rate, let's proceed.
MR. WALKER: All right, Your Honor.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Parsons, you have stated that you think that the
geographic attendance areas plan that you have submitted is th<
only feasible alternative for achieving a unified school systec
in the Little Rock schools, is that correct?
A I stated that in terms of no money available.
Q All right; so that the objection, the primary object:
as I understand it, to possible other alternatives are, one,
that there is no money available; and, two, the community will
not support through the passage of bond issues or other measure
methods by which to achieve a greater degree of racial balance
in the schools.
A That is not exhaust them.
Q I understand that; but those are the two principal
reasons.
A Those are two reasons.
Q All right. Mr. Parsons, you stated also that this
would have been your statement in 1965, is that true?
A I don't think so.
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Q Would you have had the same viewpoint about the edu
cational feasibility about a geographia assignment plan in 196
A I do not understand this. Do you mean as the only
alternative in 1965?
Q Yes.
A I think subsequent to 1965, we have considered many
other alternatives to the development of a unitary school
system.
Q I’m talking about a plan the communiy will accept,
and that there would be sufficient financial ability to achievi
A Mr. Walker, I have no way of knowing whether or not
this community would have accepted a plan in 1965.
Q Would it have been educationally desirable to have h;
such a plan implemented in 1965?
A Are you talking about this plan?
Q Yes, the plan that you presented to the Court in 196!
as set forth in Exhibit 8.
A This does not constitute a plan. I mean we did not
submit this to the Court as what should be done in 1965.
Q I understand that, but you said that this would be
the racial balance in every school in the system, had the
geographic attendance plan been implemented.
A This is merely an objective report to show what woul
have happened had a zoning plan been created in 1965 and was
not accompanied with an in-depth study of the implications of
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developing and actually putting into operation such a plan,
Q Mr. Parsons, I ask you what is your opinion about the
effect on the educational program this kind of a plan would
have had if it had been implemented in 1965?
THE COURT: Mr. Walker --
TJIE WITNESS: I do not know.
THE COURT: -- freedom of choice was perfectly legal
at that time.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, we take the position that
these defendants had, from the outset, committed themselves to
running the schools on a geographic attendance area plan; and
so that the Court will fully understand our objections, we sta'
that when the first plan was conceived, the Blossom Plan, that
these defendants, if it had been implemented then, would have
operated a school system which would have more or less been
racially balanced, but that during the intervening years, the
parents in this District, who were white and had the financial
ability, have seen the handwriting on the wall, that all of
these interim measures would eventually fail, and have used the
only other available recourse to them, if they had the means,
and that was to flee from the areas which were more or less
integrated in 1954 and 1956, and go into areas where they knew
Negroes could not or would not cone.
THE COURT: You have stated your point.
BY MR. WALKER:
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Q Mr. Parsons, isn't it true that you stated in 1965
that "I think the result of establishing of attendance areas,
such as those identified in No. 8", which I have shown you,
"would, oh, I suppose destructive is the word -- that, perhaps
is too strong -- but would adversely affect seriously the edu
cational program of the children in the little Rock School
District"?
A If that is quoted there as my having said it, I'm
sure I said it, but I do not recall having said that in 1965.
Q I call your attention to page 329 of the Clark recor
Mr. Friday is described as further asking you whether that was
your professional opinion, isn't that true, and you said, "Yes
it is."
A All right.
Q How has the situation changed so, Mr. Parsons, betwee
1965 and 1968, to make it undesirable in 1965 but desirable in
1968?
A Are you talking about desirable to provide this type
of plan?
Q Educationally desirable.
A There have been studies made of numerous plans since
1965. Every plan that has been studied and every plan that
has been approved for presentation to this community has been
considered by the Board, evidently, as educationally desirable,
but the community has turned such plans down. We are to the
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point now where we have a directive to eliminate the freedom
of choice plan under which we are currently operating, and we g<
back to our former thesis that the zoning plan is the only plai
that can be implemented in this community without financial
resources over and above those that we have.
Q Mr. Parsons, in your opinion, can either the Parsons
Plan or the Oregon Plan or any comprehensive plan to bring aboi
racial balance in this system be devised which will , in your
judgment, your best professional judgment, obtain the vote of
a majority of the residents of this District?
A On the basis of past experience, it has not been done
To sit here and say that this is impossible, I would hesitate
to do so.
Q All right, now, Mr. Parsons, isn't it true that you
propose under your plan to leave principals where they are?
A Under this plan?
Q Yes.
A Yes, that's true.
Q So that every formerly Negro school will have a Negrc
principal.
A No.
Q Except Rightsell.
A No.
Q What other school, Mr. Parsons?
A Gilliam, I believe.
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Q Does Gilliam presently have a white principal?
A Yes.
Q But you don't plan to upset that pattern.
A That's correct. We do not, the first year.
Q Now, isn't it true that wherever you have coaching
staffs, you do not plan to have the present pattern of assign
ment upset?
A No, we have not even discussed this matter at all.
Q I see. So that the former Negro schools would have
all-Negro coaching staffs and formerly white schools would havt
all-white coaching staffs, except for that one little white
man out at Horace Mann High School.
A This has not even been discussed.
Q I see. So you don't have any plans to integrate the
coaching staffs?
A We have not discussed English teachers or Social
Science teachers or Science teachers or foreign language teache
We have not identified individuals, nor have we identified
subject matter departments.
Q I see.
A We have, I believe, a Negro coach at Parkview that
you failed to identify
Q Of course, he is the most insignificant person over
there in terms of --
THE COURT: Strike that remark.
553
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DIRECT - Stirabert 559
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Let me rephrase it.
In terms of seniority and responsibility, he is the
lowest person on the seniority and responsibility list, isn't
that true?
A Not to my knowledge.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, in view of the fact that
our other examination will probably be rather lengthy, I would,
in view of my objection, I respectfully conclude my exaisinatior
of this witness.
THE COURT: All right. Call your next witness.
MR. LIGHT: Dr. E. C. Stimbert.
Whereupon,
DR. E . C. STIMBERT
having been called as a witness on behalf of defendant, and
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q You are Dr. E. C. Stimbert?
A That's correct.
Q Where do you live?
A I live in Memphis, Tennessee.
Q What is your occupation?
A I am Superintendent of the Schools over the Memphis
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DIRECT - Stimbert 5 6 0
city system. There are two systems in the county, the county
system and the city system.
Q Doctor, what educational credentials did you have
that qualified you to attain that position?
A For about thirteen years, I -- well, perhaps we shou .
go back to, maybe, degrees. An A. B. Degree from Nebraska
Western University, and a Master's Degree from Nebraska Univer
sity, and then some work with U. T., and then I have an honora:
degree from Southwestern in Memphis.
Q Is U. T. the University of Tennessee?
A Yes, the University of Tennessee.
And then, from the standpoint of experience, thirteen
years of experience as teacher and coach, principal, superin
tendent in three Nebraska systems; and then five years with
major industrial firms in the Labor Relations Department. For
the past twenty-two years, I have been with the City school
system, first as Director of Instruction, and then as Assistant
Superintendent, and for the last eleven years as the Superin
tendent .
Q Do you also have a honorary Doctorate?
A From Southwestern in Memphis, yes.
Q Have you then been Superintendent of the Memphis
School System during the period that it initiated and has been
carrying out the desegregation of the system?
A Yes, the complete plan or project of desegregating
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DIRECT - Stimbert 561
the Memphis City Schools began in 1960, which would be eight
years ago, so it would be three years after I became Superin-
tendnnt.
Q
>rocess?
Has it been part of your duties to supervise that
A Yes. About 80, 85 or 90 per cent of the duties fall
in that category.
Q Just briefly tell us what the current status of the
Memphis School System is with regard to desegregation.
A We have all faculties desegregated with the exception
of one. We have 130 school attendance units or administrative
units, some 28 senior high schools, and we began in *60 with
just the first grade, token desegregation, and then acceleratec
that without Court order; so that we have completed the elemen
tary in approximately four years, and we took the junior high
school in one year, and the senior high school in one year.
All of our professional meetings, our staff meetings
assignment of people to varcus committees and commissions is
done on a non-discriminatory manner.
Q Did I understand that you had some desegregation of
faculty in each of your schools?
A Yes. Faculty desegregation just began about a year
and a half ago, but in that length of time, beginning with the
Headstart Program in the summertime, two years this summer, at
the present time, as of the beginning of this school year, we
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DIRECT - Stimbert 562
have at least some of the opposite race on the faculty. In
some instances, this is massive. By that, I would define it
as fifty-fifty. In some instances, it may be just a single
teacher.
Q About how many students do you have in your system?
A We have 130,000 students, or 125,000.
Q And what's the racial ratio of your students and
your faculty in the system?
A The Negro pupil population at the elementary is 56
per cent. At the high school level, it’s less than that. But
overall, about fifty per cent of our pupf population is Negro.
Q Dr. Stimbert, are you familiar with what has been
called the neighborhood school concept?
A Yes, I think I am reasonably familiar with it. I
think in discussions we sometimes go far afield on definitions
but I think I know what I mean by it.
Q Would you briefly tell the Court what it means to yo
as an educator?
A I suppose that it harks back a little bit to America
tradition, but actually the neighborhood school concept is jus
what the two words mean. It is a school in a definite neigh
borhood, serving the children of a prescribed number of parent:
in small rural neighborhoods. Of course, this might have been
a single school, but in an urban complex, it is a school where
the children are and where the parents can identify with that
DIRECT - Stirobert 563
school and the pupils, too, as far as that is concerned.
Q Is it a concept that has been adopted and used in
the United States many years before the current racial diffi
culties occurred in the schools?
A I would say that it is a part of our American tradi
tion, even in urban centers, and certainly, even though trends
develop, those trends disappear and you see the re-emphasis
as far as the neighborhood school concept is concerned.
Q When you say "trend", you mean other approaches to
the
A Other approaches, right.
Q --to the assignment. Have they tended to he ephemer
or transitory?
A Well, someone tries them and they don't succeed, so
they give them up.
Q Is the Memphis system of assigning students based on
ul
the neighborhood school concept?
A Yes, we began eight years ago with a removal of all
evidences of dual zone lines, having at that time six maps of
Negro-white for elementary, because we were a biracial system,
and two maps for the junior high, and two maps for the senior
high.
At the present time we just have one single set of
boundaries.
n Have you been in the courtroom all day today during
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DIRECT - Stimbert 56 4
these proceedings and heard the proposed plan of the Little
Rock system described?
A Yes, I have.
Q Does that also fit your understanding of a neighbor
hood school concept?
A Yes, as far as it goes. As far as it goes in para
lleling our plan, we do have the zones which we call the atten
dance zones. We call them geographical attendance zones or
whatever phrase you want to use, but a school serves a certain
prescribed neighborhood according to the amount of facility
that you have in that building.
Q Have you, at my request, read the testimony given by
Dr. Goldhamraer at the August proceedings in this case?
A Yes, I have read it.
Q Is the proposal that he made in his testimony con
sistent with the neighborhood school concept?
A No, I would say that it is opposed to it.
Q How do educators now characterize or label the sort
of proposal he made?
A Well, I think it's a total disregard of the parental
interest that might be evinced in the school. It's tied to
large units of attendance and re-structuring a school system
so that the first objective Is to mix or to desegregate. That
is the paramount --or priority is given to that.
Q In your professional opinion, what should be the fir:
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DIRECT - Stimbert 565
consideration in connection with a public school system?
A Of course, there really is no reason for the existent
of a public school system except to provide quality education
for all the, I guess we’d have to say, boys and girls and young
people and adults in America today. That's what we have tra
ditionally been bound to in America.
That is not to say that the school system can't chang
to reach certain educational objectives, but its first priorit)
is education.
Q Is this proposal that Dr. Goldharamer advocates in his
testimony what is now characterized as the educational park
:oncept?
A I believe that’s the phrase that we would use to
describe it.
Q In your professional opinion, do you find yourself
in agreement or disagreement with Dr. Goldharamer in his pro
posal to abandon the neighborhood school concept in Little Rod
in favor of the educational park concept?
A I would find myself in disagreement, and I think that
many administrators share my feelings about it, and also many
professors of education and school administration who teach
about such things.
I think it was one of these flares or trends I just
recently read in Max Wolfe's summary of all the educational
park projects in the United States, there was much talk about
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DIRECT - Stimbert
educational parks but very little action.
It would appear to me that there is a holding back
or a resistance, generally speaking, to the educational park
idea, because it involves such monstrous school administrative
units. I mean all the way up to, perhaps, thousands of pupils,
if you take the extreme point of view about an educational
park.
Q Is there, to your knowledge, any public school systen
in the nation that has converted its entire system to an edu
cational park operation?
A No, I don't know of any. Some are talking about
experimenting with it -- Pittsburg or Seattle -- but I know of
no school system that has converted completely to the education
park idea.
In the first place, that would be tremendously expen
sive because you would practically have to deny the usage of
any of the facilities that you had.
Q Is then the present state of the educational park
as a concept largely theoretical rather than something that ha*
been tested?
A I'd say it's very theoretical. It's something good
to study and something good to know about, but practically and
realistically, I think we would have to shy away from it.
Q Doctor, just take your time and describe for the
Court the various educational advantages, in your judgment, of
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Stimbert 567
neighborhood school concept over the educational park concept?
A Well, at the present time I think there are more
advantages than ever before, because I think we are seeing the
resurgence of public interest in the public schools, and I
can't help but tie one of the major problems today to this
particular question, the problem of de-centralization, which
stated another way, is involvement of the community in the
school program.
If you get that school program too far from the com
munity it is serving, there will not be this involvement. Thi:.
involvement is complex; it is variable, depending on the kinds
of parents. It will differ as far as economic -- as far as
different economic level of communities are concerned. It wil
vary as to the school organization. We will find more of it,
perhaps, at the elementary level, with some depreciating of the
effect as you move up through the high school, and certainly
you get none of it at the college level.
But I would definitely have an opinion after some
forty years in this business that there is more interest now
among parents, at least in our community, in being involved in
their school in their neighborhood than I have seen for years.
Q All right, at the elementary level, for an example,
would you tell the Court what support the school gets in terms
of specifics from the parents?
A Well, generally speaking, it's quite a wide band of
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DIRECT - Stimbert 568
support, running all the way from finance to, perhaps, an under
girding of a new program in the schools, as far as an offering
is concerned.
I guess that would be the wide range of interest
which a community night have. In many schools, particularly
the elementary level again, there would be P. T. A. activity
or some other community group if there is not a P. T. A., in
some cities where P. T. A.’s do not function.
Usually, the families are organized to participate
in school activities. It may be money-raising; it may be open
house; it may be support of the teacher by furnishing certain
aid and support, certain services. In some of our schools, thi£
happens to be the nursing service. Some mothers come over intc
the first aid room.
In some other schools, it may be as a teacher aide.
There may be someone helping the teacher at certain points to
do certain clerical things so the teacher has more time to do
the actual teaching acts.
I think those are illustrations, perhaps. There are
many more. They will differ as to the particular school com
munity and what those parents wish to do for their school.
Q Is it not uncommon for those parents to buy playgrour<
equipment and water fountains and things of that sort?
A In many instances, equipment would be involved. At
the high school level, you'll find that this is one way that
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DIRECT - Stimbert 5 6 9
parents do express their support, because there will be band
boosters clubs, athletic boosters clubs. There will be other
organizations of dads and mothers to support different program:
There may be one supporting the Future Homemakers Association
and you have your Advisory Committee, and that sort of thing,
which means that the school is playing a very important part
in the lives of not only the boys and girls who are attending
it but in the lives of the parents whose homes are in that area
Q Is all of this desirable and important from the
standpoint of education going on in that school?
A I think it is almost fundamental as far as that is
concerned, unless you want to send your child away to boarding
school.
Q Do you know of any indication of the views of the
United States Office of Education with respect to the impor
tance and desirability of this parental support and involvemen :
A As I said, I really feel a resurgence of interest on
the part of parents because in a good many of the several
projects, as I recall, the instructions are to have a parents*
committee, and if you don't, you may not have your project
funded, which means, again, you are pulling in the people who
ha^e a very paramount interest in that institution in that com
munity called the school.
I have a feeling that if our schools do not do this,
which is an opinion and perhaps doesn't have any place in the
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DIRECT - Stimbert 5 7 0
record, that with our roots not very deep in America because of
our population mobility, we change addresses on 6,000 pupils
every twenty days in our community. And yet here I am, empha
sizing a community school because I feel that that is the one
way that people can particularly have some roots in the com
munity. You are not tearing them up constantly.
Q Dr. Stimbert, there has been a good deal said today
already about the cost of furnishing transportation, and I
suspect the Court is not interested in hearing any more about
the cost. But are there any other disadvantages, from an edu
cational point of view, to installing a transportation system
to haul a child across town to a school away from his home?
A Of course, there is a whole element of time. I gran,
that many children are transported great distances. I suppose
there are some children in the United States going forty to
sixty miles to school. But just because there happen to be
some exceptions in perhaps some consolidated areas in Colorado
or North Dakota, that doesn't mean that it is wise for every
child to go sixty miles.
I would say that as this child is transported, there
is the element of time in addition to the expense. Certainly,
there is a lack of interest on the part of the home in that
school that becomes a little bit foreign and remote from the
planning that goes on in the community.
Q Are there some dangers incident to this traveling
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DIRECT - Stimbcrt 571
and hauling great numbers of children across town?
A Yes, I suppose there are. I would not equate that
with all the dangers that are apparent in the urban complex
today, but I would suppose that every mile traveled adds to the
exposure, as far as safety is concerned. I guess you're safer
if you're across the street than if you had to walk a mile.
Q Do you in your system, and do you know whether this
happens physically in all school systems, havea fairly frequeni
situation of small children becoming ill at school?
A Yes, this will happen more or less frequently, depen-
ding on perhaps the time of the year when there arc epidemics,
but I suppose in an average elementary school, not a week will
go by without some child needing the attention of the home and
the principal getting in touch with the neighbors of the famil)
or something of this kind.
Q And with the neighborhood school concept, what is
done with the small child who gets sick at school?
A Well, of course, the nursing service and the contact:
with the home are much closer. We try to keep our elementary
schools planned as rather small units, within the limits of
maybe the 350 to 400 pupils, so this means you are not serving
a very large area. You are close to those homes and if there i:
an accident or sickness, you can either get in touch with the
parents or neighbors.
Q In that connection, let me ask you if you have had
an opportunity to look at Defendant's Exhibit 26? Have you
DIRECT - Stimbert S 7 2
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1 had an opportunity to look at that today?
A Yes, I have.
Q Are you familiar with the standards set out in that
table?
A Yes. I don't know as I appreciated, though I saw
it here, the complete source of the standards, but they are
the standards used in, I'd say, most urban complexes today to
plan the purchasing of sites, your location of schools, and
the size of the schools.
There is an optimum here, and you can get a school
too large, you can get it too small for efficiency's sake.
Q Are those generally accepted standards in your pro
fession for the purpose of planning schools?
A Yes, I would say they are, yes.
Q And are the sources, the agencies listed there as the
sources of those standards, responsible agencies in the field
of education?
A Yes. The American Public Health Association, Nation;
Council on SchoolHouse, Guide for Planning School Plants, and
U. S. Department of Health, Education and Welfare, these are
reputable organizations, I would say.
Q What does that indicate as the distance a child
should have to walk to school, maximum distance, at the elemen
tary level?
A Desirable walking mdius to school is one-half to
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DIRECT - Stimbert 5 7 3
three-fourths of anile.
Q And does it have junior high and senior high?
A Junior high is one to one and a fourth; senior high,
one and a half to two miles.
Q Doctor, in considering the educational concept pro
posed by Dr. Goldhammer, would a disparity in the average
achievement level of groups of students in the community create
any problem?
A Well, I guess a disparity will always create a prob
lem, but it would seem that the disparity in achievement, the
cause of it, may be what we ought to be talking about. I thin);
if I read Dr. Goldhammer*s testimony correctly that you try to
correct this disparity because it is, perhaps, a racial issue;
when I believe that many authorities today would take issue
with that and say that rather the disparity in achievement
probably has to do with the economic status of the family plus
expectation of peers and a lot of other things.
Q Is this your view?
A This is my view, yes.
Q Well, how would conversion from the neighborhood
school concept to the educational park concept create problems
with regard to that disparity?
A Well, of course, an educational park, the larger the
unit, the more models of disparity you're going to have in it.
Of course, I think it’s rather logical what has to be done n e x ‘
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DIRECT - Stimbert 574
and we have seen it happen that the larger the schools become,
you get some grouping within the school itself.
Q Is this what has been characterized among other
things as the "track system"
A That's right.
Q -- within the school.
A That's right. Which, of course, is in ill repute at
the present time.
Q Does it create problems for a teacher, educational
problems, for a teacher to have children in a class that are
achieving at a significantly different level?
A I think, administratively, we have to recognize that
there has to be some homogeneous grouping of talent and ability
whether it's for the football team or in the Latin class.
Q Doctor, are you a member of the American Association
of School Administrators?
A Yes, I am.
Q What is that association?
A It is an association of school superintendents and
other individuals with administrative responsibilities in pub
lic, private and parochial schools, plus college professors
who are engaged in the teaching and preparation of these schoo E
administrators, some 16,000 members.
Q Is this the national professional association of
people engaged in the business of school administration?
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DIRECT - Stimbert S75
A I would say yes. There are some others for certain
branches of administration, but this is one of the major ones,
I would say.
Q Do you happen to be acquainted with Dr. Goldhammer,
also, as an administrator?
A Yes, I know Dr. Goldharaaer.
Q Has that Association undertaken to examine the ques
tion of the neighborhood school concept, and has it, as a resul
of that examination, taken a position on the matter?
A Yes. A few, not too many, years ago, it established
a commission to prepare a study on this particular subject of
school racial policy, I think was the title of it.
Q Do you remember about how many members were on that
commission?
A About -- I couldn't name them, but I think there
were approximately ten on the committee.
Q All right. Were you a member of that?
A I was a member of the committee.
q And were both Negro and white members on the coramitti
A Yes.
Q Was it a fairly representative committee, geographi
cally over the nation?
A Yes, from San Francisco to the East Coast. I recall
the Assistant Superintendent from San Francisco was on it.
Q All right, and what was the--
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DIRECT - Stimbert S 7 6
A The South was represented, and the North.
Q What was the position that that committee adopted
and recommended to the Association?
A Well, we covered Biany alternatives in the study but
came to the conclusion that the neighborhood school was edu
cationally sound and administratively feasible.
Q Was there any minority report put out by the Com
mission?
A No. I thought when we first began to meet that per
haps there would be; I believe Dr. Arch Shaw was the chairman
of the commission -- that is, the one who performed the secre
tarial rites for the commission. But after a great many sessi
there was full agreement on the neighborhood school philosophy
as far as the administrative unit for achieving optimum edu
cational results, if you're using education with the broad
capital !,E" meaning many of the things that happen to children
Q Was the report of the committee the final action or
was it sent to the whole Association for their adoption?
A It was not adopted by the entire -- the A. A. S. A.,
the American Association of School Administrators works by
commission, and the commission had full authority to come out
with this report.
Q All right.
A The publishers then distributed it, and all members
received copies of it.
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DIRECT - Stimbcrt 577
Q What do you understand, from reading Dr. Goldhammer’*
testimony, to be the purpose of goal to be achieved by the
adoption of the educational park concept?
A Well, if I read correctly and interpret properly, th<
major objective is, of course, a natural mixing of the races -•
in this particular instance, Negro and white, in this particulj
testimony.
Q Does it seem to be designed to achieve some sort of
racial balance?
A I would say that that is given priority, yes, that's
number one.
Q Is there any research published in the professional
literature in your profession that supports the position that
racial balance makes a contribution to education or the learnin
process?
A I'll tell you frankly if there is something that wil\
contribute to the improvement of the educational process, I
think school administrators would be the first to want to use
it. Many of us are looking avidly or bits of research, real
findings and real data that will prove that certain acts that
we perform, certain projects that we carry out, we can be
accountable for and say this that we have done will be meaning
ful in the lives of the pupils.
At the presnt time -- I can be corrected, and if
someone knows it, I'll be glad to have it -- but I know of no
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DIRECT - Stimbert 578
empirical evidence, real evidence, that indicates that the
simple playing of the numbers game -- ratios, moving of bodies
around -- under any kind of a plan whatsoever has been success
£ul in adding to the quality of education in the place where
it has occurred.
I think we are all on a search for "how can we take
a given child and move him to the maximum of his capacity?"
And I think we ought to quit indicting each other by saying
that we can't learn unless we are sitting next to someone.
This is not educationally sound, actually, because there is no
evidence that just by doing that -- you may create the opposite
We have had some experiences -- and I say experience
because they v?ere not experimental -- where just the opposite
was achieved, and we had to route children through the adjust
ment division because desegregation was not that fine experi
ence that we had hoped it would be for some child.
I am not suggesting that we ought to abandon desegre
gation. We are committed to it, enthusiastically and avidly,
but I don't think that is the number one priority. If we
create a quality educational system across the country, maybe
we will begin to solve some of these other problems that look
to be unsolvable because we are dealing with people who cannot
take advantage of the education and arrive at some reasonable
conclusions with the relationships.
Q Based on your experience, Dr. Stimbert, in administei
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DIRECT - Stimbert 579
a quite large biraciol public school district, what would be
necessary administratively for you to be able to maintain a
racial balance of the schools in each school in your system?
A That is one real administrative question. I ’d say
two things, perhaps: if you just wanted to think of balancing,
you would have to do it every Monday morning in our school
system. I can only speak of Memphis because I’m not familiar
with the Little Rock system.
But we're talking about racial balance. That is an
achieving thing because of the fact that in your schools, you
are reflecting the mobility of a lot of people, so you would
have to adjust it, unless you had some formula that you just
maintained throughout the year, which, then, would not be raci:
>alance.
Secondly, you could achieve racial balance if someone
could control all the other variables, just leave education out
of it, and say that we will reflect the balance which can be
established by other variables in the community.
Q Are these variables that the local school authoritie:
have any control over?
A Have no control over it whatsoever.
Q Just for example, what sort of variables?
A Well, it would be housing patterns, for one thing.
There are certain economic patterns. There are employment pattci
all kinds of things that have an effect on our racial makeup
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DIRECT - Stimbert 580
within a given community.
Q Doctor, did you have an opportunity to examine the
faculty desegregation plan that Mr. Parsons has presented here
this morning?
A Yes, I heard it presented this morning.
Q How would you characterize that proposal, in your
professional opinion?
A I couldn't help but go over one word in my mind as
he talked about it. I think it's a tremendously ambitious
program, and I'm wishing him all the luck in the world. I don
think there is a school system in the United States that would
have accomplishment to its credit, if he can pull it off.
Q That was to be my next question. Do you know of a
school system in the United States that has desegregated a
faculty as he is proposing for September of 1969?
A No, sir, I really don't, because we are just getting
into an understanding of what faculty life is like, outside of
the southeast region of the United States, and we are beginnin
to find out that there is much more faculty segregation than
we knew about. We have been working on it, as I said, in
Memphis, and I suppose this experience might be a little help
ful .
We were going about filling vacancies with the most
positive intent, and we were able to move some four hundred
teachers across what would be considered racial lines, having
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DIRECT - Stirabert 581
a white teacher teach in the predominantly Negro school, and
back and forth, some four hundred of them without a resignatioi
Then on Friday before school opened this fall, after
a discussion and we wanted to complete all faculties before
school started, because we had had a discussion with our Judge,
and this was not a Court order, we had a need for 53 teachers
to be moved and it took seventy to fill those 53 vacancies.
Because when you disregard good human personnel in administra
tive practices, you get reactions, and it's about time we begar
to look at parental reactions, teacher reactions and pupil
reactions, and maybe there is something other than just playing
the numbers game.
Yes, we got our 53 teachers, but seventeen -- some
of that seventeen were some of the finest teachers that we had.
I recall one band man that we hated to lose, but because of the
nature of the way vacancies and grade assignments occurred to
desegregate all the faculties but one, it required 53 teachers
and seventeen resigned as a result of it.
Indianapolis has much the same experience that the
week before school opened, they had four hundred that they
needed to move around to desegregate their faculties, and about
25 per cent resigned.
Q Twenty-five per cent resigned of the entire -~
A Of the four hundred that they were moving resigned.
This could be verified. I was just in a conversation with the
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DIRECT - Stimbert 582
Superintendent and he mentioned this because we were talking
about it.
So I would say that Mr. Parsons’ faculty desegregatic
plan is extremely ambitious, and certainly we would hope that
it could be carried out successfully.
Q Based on your experience, what problem, if any, is
he like to encounter with teacher morale with regards to this
proposal?
A Well, certainly, he will have to work with the
teachers group to accomplish this, because this was the first
thing that hit us. I think everyone in the courtroom is aware
of teacher militancy, and the action of teachers groups, if yoi
do not confer with them. And, again, I think they have the
same right the parents have in the involvement of them in cer
tain matters that are going to concern them.
A good many teachers are willing to cross this boun
dary line between the races. I would say that it is getting t<
be a more complex operation than it was, say, two years ago.
Maybe this is not true in Little Rock yet, but we are not
finding the acceptance on the part of teachers that we did.
We are finding fewer and fewer good Negro teachers to add to
our payroll because
Q With whom arc you in competition for them?
A Oh, just about everybody. The government and ind
business. When a fine young Negro man or young lady gets a
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DIRECT - Stimbert 5 8 3
degree and has a teaching certificate and is well trained, the
are dozens of places that they can go, and the schools are in
competition for them. That's why I say there are certain dif
ficulties in achieving a high level of quality education and
then meeting all the personnel requirements that go along with
it.
Q Is there any educational significance to whether or
not a teacher is happy in her assignment?
A I definitely there is. There is a high correlation
between the satisfaction which an individual has in almost any
job and, certainly, this is true of teachers because you are
dealing with these other human beings, other personnel, and
as I have often said in an audio-visual speech I make, the
best piece of visual equipment in a classroom is a sails on tho
face of the teacher. And I think this is true.
The atmosphere or the climate that surrounds that
classroom as the teacher and the pupil relate themselves to
each other is one of the most important factors that you con
sider.
Q Is there likely to be much learning going on if the
teacher fails to motivate or establish rapport with the child?
A There'll be much less, that's for sure.
Q All right, what effect have you observed on the
stability of the school with reference to its racial populatio i
-- first, Doctor you have had some experience in your system
DIRECT - Stiinbert
5 8 4
with schools where the proportion of Negro students had risen
and where you have maintained a majority of the white faculty
members?
A Yes.
Q What effect have you observed on the stability of
the school with reference to its racial population in those
instances?
A Well, I guess many of us in this business have dis
cussed the tilt point that when communities go into transition ,
there is much movement out and movement in. Certainly, Memphis
is as aware of this as Atlanta is. I think the change in
Atlanta is about two per cent.
To answer your question, we may be finding -- and
again not experimentally; we just happened on to this -- that
we have several schools in Memphis where, although they were
formerly all-white schools, the transition began. But the tilt
point seemed to have risen, and one of the reasons may be that
because we made to change in the faculty or the principalship,
only the normal changes have occurred because of resignations
or requested transfers.
So we have several communities where the tilt point
has gone up and up. In other words, it really isn't tilting.
The whites are staying because they see no threat to their
children in attending this school. The quality of education
hasn't changed, so why shouldn't they continue to stay?
DIRECT - Stimbert 5 8 5
Maybe a part of our answer to this whole business is
to create stable communities, and maybe this is one contributic
that the school can make, is to just have a good school, par
excellence, no better. I have heard this suggested by someI others as far as downtown schools are concerned, in the center city, that what we must do is to make that school so good that
no one wants to leave it.
I believe that in our teacher system, we are getting
some principals and some teachers committed to this idea,
which means we are not going to sit around waiting for bodies
to be moved to get quality education. You are indicting lots
of states and lots of rural areas, if we think the only way
to get quality education is through desegregation.
Now, desegregation should be a part of this whole
I process and I am not saying it shouldn’t be, and I'd be dedi-
| cated to it as a principle, at least the removal of all evi-
Jdences of discrimination educationally. Your law requires it
| and our moral obligations ought to perform it.
Q In your professional opinion, are the public schools
equipped to solve the social ills and cultural problems that
relate to the racial problem?
A No, I don't think so. I think we should make a con
tribution, as I suggested awhile ago. I think that some of oui
teachers who are now functioning in these communities that I
talk about are making a tremendous contribution toward the
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DIRECT - Stirabcrt 5S6
solution, but it's not in terms of statistics, ratios and per
centages .
Q In your professional opinion, is there any alternativ
to the plan that has been proposed by Mr. Parsons here today
that would be educationally superior to that plan for this
school system?
A I have listened to a discussion of all of the alter
natives and, of course, this is quite similar to our plan with
the addition of the fact that we have a transfer plan, a
transfer procedure tacked on to it.
Now, I can't get into the variations that you might
make of your plan, but it would seem to me that geographical
attendance z o n e s enabling that school to serve a community, no
matter what that community is, is a sound approach. I don’t
know of any other at the present time that is educationally
sound or administratively feasible.
MR. LIGHT: Thank you, Doctor.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, could we have about a five
minute recess?
THE COURT: Yes. We will be in recess until 4:00
o'clock.
(A short recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, gentlemen.
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CROSS - Stimbert 5 8 7
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Dr. Stimbert, are you aware or familiar with any
county school systems throughout the United States?
A Which one?
Q Any county systems, the general trend in county systo
A Yes.
Q Is it not so that the general trend in county school
systems has been toward consolidation to provide administrative
units?
A I was superintendent of a consolidated school for
twenty years. That's an entirely different matter than the
s ubject of neighborhood schools. There you create a rural
neighborhood or a kind of a unit.
Q Create a kind of unit by enlarging the administrative
and attendance zones, is that correct?
A Yes, but you can also
Q Well, that has been the trend universally throughout
the United States, is that not so, in the last several years?
A Well, I don't know how ouch of a trend.
Q Are you familiar with any county systems that have
gone the other way toward fractionating the county system into
smaller units?
A No, I am nore familiar with urban units. I know that
the urban units are decentralized.
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CROSS - Stimbert 588
Q Are you familiar with the Racial Isolation Report of
1967, and the Coleman Report which preceded it?
A Yes.
Q And have you --
A Now, familiarity is a broad band of how familiar.
Q You are familiar with
A I can’t quote from it, if that’s what you mean.
Q All right. You have read it or read studies about ii
and does that recognize those two reports -- are they recog
nized as two of the leading subjects on the literature and
testing of the entire field of school desegregation and integra
tion?
A Well, I would say they are tî o leading controversial
studies, yes. They are not accepted by everyone* as you know.
Q Not accepted by everyone.
A Absolutely not. They are very controversial studies
Q I see. Racial Isolation included?
A Racial Isolation included, because most of the sta
tistics are based on the Coleman Report.
Q Are you familiar with the theory of the middle-class
school, and the benefits to be derived from the middle-class
school?
A I believe -- let's check to be sure we know what
we're talking about.
Q I'm sure you understand.
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CROSS Stimbert 5 8 9
A Are you talking about four-four-four?
Q No, no. I don’t mean the middle-class grade struc
turing. I mean the middle-class economic milieu.
A Then you’ll have to explain what you mean.
Q All right.
Is it your view that difference in average grade
level achievement and perhaps in I. Q. tests is a correlative
of economic disparity and the individual being tested?
A Yes, even the Coleman Report does suggest that.
Q All right. And the Racial Isolation Report amplifies
that and states that as one of its definite conclusions, is
that correct?
A It states it as its definite conclusion, but that is
not concurred in by all statisticians.
Q Do you agree with that?
A No, I do not. I do not agree with the Racial Isola
tion Report, if that’s what you're talking about.
Q Do you agree that average grade level achievement is
a function of the economic status of the grade?
A Yes, I'll agree with that.
Q All right, and do you agree that the average grade
level achievement is a function of the school as a whole as
opposed to the individual grade?
A Function of the school as a whole as opposed to --
n -- as to the economic status of the school as a whole
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CROSS - Stimbert 590
as opposed to the individual grade?
A No, I don't know that I quite understand your concep :
of what a school should be. The school, just because it serves
a low economic level, doesn't necessarily have to be that kind
of school.
Q I understand that, sir. I'm asking you is it your
testimony that average grade level achievement is made up most!.
-- variables are made up mostly due to economic disparity in
the groups being tested, is that correct?
A Economic, social and other factors.
Q All right. Extra things that are not directly relate
to what you would typically call the racial composition.
A Right. That's correct.
Q Is it your opinion that the average grade level
achievement of economically advantaged groups is superior
generally, according to the acceptable-- according to the test:;
than economically disadvantaged groups?
A Yes, that's true.
Q And is that the finding generally found in Racial
Isolation?
A Well, it is also found whether race is a factor or no
You find it in the white low income groups.
Q Is that a generally held conclusion among -- in almc£:
all the literature? Is that correct?
A That's correct, is you’ll stay with the economic and
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CROSS - Stimbert 5 9 1
social factors.
Q Is it also true that when one tests average grade
level achievement that the economic variable of the school as
a whole is more important than the average economic level of
the individual class?
A This can be a factor, yes.
Q All right. Do you hold with that
A I said that. Because I did say that the expectation
of peers in that school would have an impact.
Q Do you hold personally that it is?
A I do, yes.
Q Now, is it not true that it is extraordinarily diffi
cult, if not impossible, to have an economic mix in a given
school, based on neighborhood patterns -- in all schools, if
you base them on neighborhood patterns?
A That might be difficult,yes.
Q All right.
A I do know that it is necessary, I quickly add.
Q Well, is it necessary for a school system to do
everything that it can to maximize the average grade level
achievement of all of its students?
A That is absolutely correct, but you’re saying that
the mix is going to do it, and I am saying that there are other
ways of achieving it.
Q All right. I’m asking you only if one method of
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maximizing the average grade level achievement for all of your
students is to mix, economically, the student population of a
given school?
A Yes, I would agree with that. That is one way.
Q All right. Now, you state that there are other ways
to mix, is that correct?
A No, I didn’t say there are other ways to mix. I sai
there are other ways of achieving a quality school for the low
economic categories.
Q All right, and one of those ways is compensatory edu-
cation.
A Yes, that's one of the ways.
Q Are you familiar with the program in New York entitle
"The More Effective School Program"?
A Just slightly familiar.
Q Was that not a program of intensive compensatory edu
cation?
A If you say so. I’m not as familiar with that.
Q I'm just asking you if you know.
A No, I don't know.
Q YOu do not know, and you do not know of the results
in the literature --
A No, I know who sponsors it, but I don't know actually
what the results are. I haven't seen the tabulated results of
what is has accomplished.
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CROSS - Stimbert 5 9 3
Q Have you seen in any literature the results of what
it accomplished?
A I have seen in the literature that which the sponso
of the plan have said it will do.
Q And you have seen no verification?
A I have seen no hard data that indicates what it will
do. I am happy that they are trying, however. It's a good
thing to do.
Q All right. And are you also famiiar with the huge
expenditures of money involved in The More Effective School
Program?
A That is your New York program?
Q That is correct.
Are you familiar with the fact that teacher-pupil
ratios were lessened to one-to-one and one-to-three in some
cases?
A True.
Q And that whole schools were transformed into model
teaching institutions, and several million dollars were spent
on individual units in order to bring up, by compensatory
education, average grade level achievement?
A Right.
Q Do you know of any better way besides compensatory
education to bring up and equalize average grade level achieve
raent?
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CROSS - Stimbert 594
A I believe I gave a few illustrations from our own
situation. I don’t know about New York.
Q Average grade level achievement.
THE COURT: Is there any such thing?
MR. KAPLAN: That, in my understanding, was what he’s
talking about.
THE WITNESS: If you're talking -- well, you said a
lot about tests which I didn't say anything about. You've usee
I. Q., and I hadn't said anything about I. Q.'s.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Let's go back to that, then.
A You brought those up. I didn't.
Q All right, let's discuss I. Q.'s for a moment.
Do you hold with that view which states that I. Q.
tests are also a function of the economic background of the
individual being tested?
A I don't put that much faith in I. Q. tests. Most of
us have very little faith in them. We give them today as some
indication, but certainly in interpretation, you have to do
like any other professional person and use some good common
sense.
Q What measure do you personally use to measure the
achievement and the progress of the individual in the Memphis
school system?
A We have a research department, and when it comes time
to be accountable for what has happened in a special program or
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CROSS - Stirabert 595
in a special program, that is turned over to Research, usually,
first, by setting up baseline data before any project ever
begins; and by project, it can be the second grade, or it
could be achievement emphasis or it could be some special
program.
Q But you do use
A And you try to find out where the pupils are when
you begin that program. Maybe you're not looking for average
grade achievement. You may be looking for a higher standard
of cleanliness or a different change in speech pattern. There
are literally thousands of objectives in education other than
this average grade achievement we're trying to talk about.
Q Are any of those paramount objectives?
A Yes, sir, some of them
Q Which are the most paramount?
A I don’t know which are the most paramount. You can’t
-- it depends on what I would like.
Q Well, you stated that the paramount objective for a
school system is quality education.
A Right.
Q So perhsps we had better get a definition of what is
quality education, so we can get clear what these objectives
are.
A When I said that, I said it with a capital "E", as I
think the testimony will show, becausel had in mind all of the
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CROSS - Stimbert 596
forces that impinge on that child at the time that he is
maturing so he will grow up to be a functioning citizen in our
society.
Q That includes his home economics and his sports and
his pep club and his band and all of that.
A It could be his work experience; it could be distri
butive education; it could be cosmetology; it could be Latin.
Q Could it be his ability to function in society as it
exists in
A It could be to make a speech.
Q Could it be his ability to function and relate to
people in the society as a whole?
A Very definitely.
Q That is a part of quality education?
A It would be part of it, yes.
Q Now, when you measure -- when you measure his actual
education in terms of the traditional curriculum which he has
ingested, how do you measure that?
A You’re talking now about the bookish aspect?
Q The bookish aspect, right.
A This is done by standardized tests.
Q All right, and how do you measure that achievement?
A As I said, by standardized tests.
Q And that -- do those standardized tests generally
grouped under the ones that you would hold some validity wi u*
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average grade level achievements?
A Yes, they do have -- there are certain expectations
in each grade level, but this is adjustable in any smart school
system.
Q Adjustable?
A Oh, absolutely. We have
Q All right.
A -- some fifth grade pupils operating very successful:
at the second grade level.
Q Are these normal functioning individuals?
A No. What is normal?
Q I see. These are what you would typically call
retarded, is that correct?
A I wouldn't call them retarded. They may be educa
tionally retarded, but not mentally retarded.
Q Educationally retarded.
A That's right. They haven't had the --
Q Do you have any programs to try and raise the level
of those individuals who would be physically in the fifth grade
to an educational achievement at the fifth grade level?
A You bet your life we have.
Q Is that what you were talking about in terms of com
pensatory education?
A Not necessarily.
Q h'hat other methods are there?
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A Because some of that doesn't cost a dime. Usually,
when you say compensatory education, you're talking in terms of
compensating for and budgeting for. But you can have an
achievement emphasis program -- that happens to be our name
for it -- which takes the under-achiever and tries to move him
in as short a length of time up to where he would be a
functioning individual as far as his peers are concerned.
Q This takes special programs, however, and emphasis,
and work with the student, is that correct?
A Why, yes.
Q Are you familiar with the terra "inter-stimulation"
of pupils?
A Only in passing as a psychological device.
Q All right. Haven't you employed psychological device:
in your school system to heighten the achievement among pupils?
A Motivation. We experiment with motivation.
Q And that is a motivational device, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q What do you understand inter-stimulation to be?
A A group of individuals having happen pretty much what
is happening here, at the present time, if more were allowed to
speak rather than just the two of us.
Q Is inter-stimulation a direct benefit of the economic
mix of students?
A It might be; it might not be. It would depend on if
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1 you were interested in economic mix at that point.
Q If you were interested in raising the average grade
level achievement of a certain group of students, is one of the
ways that you raise it inter-stimulating them with people of
varying economic and racial backgrounds?
A No, you're putting all your methodology in one basket
again. It could be that you simply used a reward system. There
is much experimentation at the present time in this field.
What rewards you give is a motivator for pupils. The
psychology magazines and texts are full of them.
We're talking about inter-stimulation. That’s one
word we can pick out of thin air, but let's not forget that
there is a gamut of activities that teachers can be trained to
use these days to improve the children and their achievement
in school
Q As a matter of fact, no one educational device and
no one educational method achieves everything, does it?
A That's exactly right. True.
Q Now, can you -- strike that.
What has been your educational experience -- has your
experience been that the Negro neighborhood and the Negro
schools in Memphis have been generally of lower economic back
ground?
A Yes, because I think we have many problems in our
cities, and one is employment. One may be the union problem
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m d union membership. And we had better begin to tackle the
problem as a society problem rather than trying to get education
o solve all these ills.
Q Are the problems of the ghetto child directly relatec
to our entire gamut of problems which may be, in some part,
unrelated to school systems?
A Yes, I think that would be a true statement.
Q All right. Is under-employment a function of the
inability of the Negro adult to cope with the educational
requirements of employers?
A That might be the case in a certain category.
Q Is a part of it a heritage in the South? Let’s talk
particularly about the South. Is it a part of it a heritage
of the dual system of schools where there was true any quality
of education?
A A part of it would be that. However, let's talk abot
the North too.
Q Well, let's talk about the South where we live right
now, sir.
tHE COURT: Let's don't get into argument. I think we
will be carried away by semantics.
MR. KAPLAN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Nox*, are these total community problem, then, relatec
to the initial development of the child within the school syste
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CROSS - Stirabert 6 0 1
A The total -- say that again?
Q These problems of under-employment, the problems of
inability of the Negro adult to cope with the employment edu
cational requirements, with the heritage of the dual school
system. Are some of these in some fashion directly related to
the initial school environment of the Negro child?
A To the school environment?
Q To the school environment of the Negro child.
A Let me be sure I understand you, because I think
there is something involved in that question. He can be a chi.
from a broken home. Whatever these factors are, the child
comes to school, and if you're saying that --
Q Mr. Witness, I do not care to generalize about the
entire community. I'm asking you about some of the specific
problems which you have identified as community problems. Are
they directly related to the child, the Negro child's initial
experiences in school?
A No, that's a different question.
Q That's the one I would like for you to answer.
A That one I can answer. Yes, they are directly relati
Q All right. If the Negro school is perpetuated with
out the ability of the child to achieve at significantly
high levels, will these problems continue to be perpetuated?
A Absolutely. But your question was an "iff-y" one.
0 I'm not -- I'm just asking you to answer the question
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CROSS - Stimbert 602
You don't understand the question?
A I can only answer an "iff-y" question in an "iff-y"
manner.
Q Okay. And you're doing fine so far.
You talked about the parental interest in the public
schools. Isn't it true that the consolidated school districts,
the large consolidated school districts across the United
States in various county systems, have their own parental con
stituency even though they are not drawn from a neighborhood?
A They have a constituency, yes.
Q All right. And this constituency is generally made
up of parents, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q The college which you spoke of as having no consti
tuency has its own unique constituency in its alumni, is that
correct?
Yes.
Q Isn't it true that whenever schools systems have
moved even a small portion away from the absolute strict
adherence to the neighborhood school system, they have main
tained their constituency, is that correct?
A No, it is not correct.
Q All right, let's take specifically the example of
pairing of schools. Do you know of any example where schools
have benn paired with intermingling of the two paired schools
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CROSS - Stimbert 603
parental groups have not taken place?
A No, I don’t know of any.
Q All right.
A Because I don’t know of any such schools.
Q So at least with pairing, you don't lose the neigh-
borhood concept but rather further develop and aid it, isn’t
that true?
Q
THE COURT: He said he didn't know of any pairing.
THE WITNESS: I don't know of any pairing.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Oh, I'm sorry.
Do you know of any schools at all which are not
neighborhood schools?
A No, sir, I don't believe I do.
Q All right, sir.
A The closest I could come to it would be a vocational
school. For example, technical high school.
Q Do you have such a high school? A vocational school'
A We have one, yes.
Q You have one. Do you have a football team?
A Yes.
Q Do they have a pep club?
A Yes.
Q Do they have a boosters' club?
A Well, now, not parental.
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CROSS - Stirabert 604
Q Do they have a band?
A Yes.
Q Are there parents --
A The parents are not involved, and there is very little
interest as far as the parents are concerned.
Q I see. Isn't it true that parental involvement in
given schools leads to inequality of education because of the
schools relying on money expenditures from outside the system?
A No, I wouldn’t suscribe to that.
Q All right. How about the bands or the boosters’
clubs in your more affluent communities in Memphis and in your
ghetto communities in Memphis?
A I don’t know of a school without a band. We furnish
the instruments.
Q How about the appurtenances, bus transportation, and
the other things? That’s all equal?
A All equal.
Q And the other parental money that is expended. What
kind of parental money is expended?
A They seem to be interested in their schools.
Q I see. What other kind of parental money is expend*
The playground equipment -- are the playgrounds and the gym
nasium facilities the same in all sections of your city?
A No, it would differ in our particular system. They
do not furnish playground equipment. They may in some other
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CROSS Stimbcrt 6 0 5
systems, but we supply now.
q I see. Who runs the educational systems in terms of
the curricular and the extracurricular programs which will be
offered? Is it the school administrators or the parents?
A I would say parents and teachers have more to say
about it than anything else.
Q How about the curricular, the strict curricular
activities?
A Well, some of that, of course, is controlled by Statjs
law.
Q And the rest of it is controlled by your administra
tive staff.
A No, that's not true. You've picked on the wrong per
son this time because in our particular school
Q Oh, I didn't know I was picking on anybody.
A No, I meant that jokingly, facetiously.
THE COURT: Let’s get along.
THE WITNESS: I meant it just as a reaction because
in our particular system, there is much teacher and parent
involvement. That's what I mean.
THE COURT: Let's get away from all these generaliti;
and try to get down to this lawsuit.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Do you know when the neighborhood school concept
first appeared?
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CROSS - Stimbert 606
A Long before I carae on the educational scene, and I've
been in it about forty years, and I suppose
Q Do you know -- I'm sorry. I didn't mean to inter
rupt you.
A That’s all right.
Q Do you know whether it first appeared in an educa
tional or a planning concept?
A Well, from my history of education -- and this is
certainly a generality -- certainly, a community sensed that
it had a certain need. As we go back to the early days of the
public school in America, we see a community having a school
that satisfied certain community needs at that point. America
was rural, and maybe it was as simple as teaching somebody how
to be a minister. Certainly, reading, writing and arithmetic,
and it was very close to the community that it served.
Q Now, do you know whether it first developed as a
planning concept or as an educational concept?
A Both, 1 would suppose.
Q Both. All right.
You stated that your first objective in education or
your first objective in the administration of public schools
is quality education.
Now, can the variables that you have listed within
the makeup of the broad capital "E" education change from time
to time?
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CROSS - Stimbert 607
A In the broad variables outside?
Q No, no. Inside the makeup of the capital "E" educa
tion. Can they change from time to time?
A Yes, I would think that they could.
Q What factors go into changing the makeup from the
capital "E" education?
A Oh, I think one of the biggest changes we have seen
is the swing from a rural-dominated education in our system to
an urban. I think that the needs in a city are different.
Children in our city have to transport themselves on buses.
If they want to go Saturday to a movie someplace, they have to
ride the public transportation.
Q It is not unique in an urban atmosphere, then, for
children to be thoroughly familiar with the transportation
systems in the city, is that correct?
A Generally speaking, although we will have some chil
dren living four blocks from the Mississippi River who have
never seen it. And the school system has an obligation at thi:
point, I would like to point out.
Q Is that obligation to familiarize themselves with ai:
aspects of the community?
A That's right.
Q All right, and they can adjust to those aspects, is
that correct?
A Within certain limits, yes.
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CROSS - Stimbert 608
Q Are you familiar with the Coleman Report -- I'm sorrr
-- with the Racial Isolation Report's conclusion that children
who have undergone integrated educational experiences tend to
prefer their own children to remain in integrated educational
experiences?
A No, I'm not familiar with that particular line.
Q Has your system itself been involved in court liti
gation involving the desegregating of your schools?
A Yes, we are under Court order.
Q You are presently under Court order.
A Since 1960.
Q And continued under Court order?
A Yes.
Q Has your neighborhood school plan been undei attack
since that time?
A At the present time, we are submitting, at the Court
instructions, all of our data statistics. I don’t know that
there is any question particularly.
Q But you are under continuing Court review of your
neighborhood school system?
A And any changes that we make in boundary line or -
Q And is the last litigation involving your school
system an attack -- the last litigation, not necessarily your
last submission --on the neighborhood school concept such as
you have implemented?
CROSS - Stimbert 609
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A It might have been because my testimony has been
about the same today as it would have been then.
Q Has Shelby County, which surrounds the City of Memph:
school system, been placed under Court order to balance the
schools in a racially balanced manner?
A What was the question?
Q Shelby County surround the City of Memphis
A Yes, but what was the question?
Q Has Shelby County been placed under Court order to
racially balance its schools?
A Yes.
Q Now, you talked about a tilt point. Will you define
for the Court what a tilt point is?
A Well, I don't know that I am the expert on tilt points.
Q Well, just as you use it.
A As I used it, it means that in a given community -■
let's begin with an all-white -- that you begin to have some
desegregation patterns within the community, the residential
part of it, and so as your school enrollment increases and the
Negro enrollment becomes a greater percentage, generally speakijng,
across the country there is some statistical evidence that that
tilt point is about -- what is it -- about 38 per cent, that
when your school enrollment gets 38 per cent Negro enrollment,
the movement in the community -- I'm talking about the residen
tial pattern -- is such that you end up with an all-Negro
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I I school the next fall.
Q When the percentage of the student body in the com
munity as a whole is how much?
A Well, this is a fluctuating percentage but at the
present time those that I have heard discuss have said 38 per
cent, 35 to 40 per cent.
Q What is the tilt point in your community where your
8 | total population of school-age children is approximately 52 to
9 I 58 per cent?
A Well, as I just said, the tilt point percentage
II 1 changes, and it changes in an urban set-up such as Memphis.
12 We had entire areas, block aftor block, that tilted at 20 per
13 I cent. Way back at the beginning, they tilted the first time a
14 1 Negro student entered the school.
Now, it’s up to the point where, as I testified a
16 II while ago, some schools because of the nature of those schools
17 I have a tilt point that’s much higher. We would like to see the
18 1 community stabilize.
Q Do you have any tilt point schools that are -- that
20 I have not yet received a tilt point where the percentage of
21 1 Negroes in that school far exceed the number of Negroes in the
22 1 school system?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where is that? What’s the percentage?
A I would say up around 70, 75 or 80 per cent in three
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CROSS - Stimbert 611
or four different situations.
Q Has it been your experience in the Memphis school
system that once a given school is over-balance with the per
centage of Negroes being far in excess of their percentage in
the school system as a whole that the school becomes rapidly
Negro? All Negro.
A With the exception of that one phrase "the percentag*
of Negroes in the school system", because that would mean 52
per cent. I think historically it's been less than that.
Q Okay.
A But I see some evidence that there is a trend in the
o ther direction, hopefully.
Q Now, you state that in your opinion, in your educatic
opinion, that the plan as proposed by the Little Rock School
Board is the best single educationally sound plan that you can
think of, is that correct?
A Yes, gathering that from Mr. Parsons --
Q Have you studied any of the previous proposals by the
Little Rock School District?
A No, I have not. Only those that have been discussed
n
today.
Q Let’s look for a moment at the school district
colored in green on this exhibit right in front of you, Defen
dant’s No. 22. It covers, as you can see, large area of the
city, is that correct? Geographical area.
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Stirabert 612
A I suppose. Yes.
Q And the high school is in the lower third quadrant
of that, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Now, would you assume that -- can we stipulate that
the upper corner is more than two miles away?
MR. ROTENBERRY: There is a scale on there.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Well, assuming that the upper quadrant or the upper
portion of this development which you have heard here today
referred to as Walton Heights and Candlewood is more than two
miles away, it is more than the optimum figures as reported in
the Metroplan, is that correct?
A I think there was about two miles involved.
Q Let's say it's approximately, for purposes cf this
question, approximately four or five miles. Do you agree that
children would have to in some manner be transported to that
facility?
A In some manner, yes.
q Now, if that facility had a geographic attendance
zone that stretched laterally across this, would it make any
difference -- given equal highways and equal portions of the
city -- whether they came from the lower right-hand corner and
were transported or whether they came from the extreme upper
left-hand corner?
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CROSS - Stimbert 6 1 3
A Now we’re getting into the Little Rock plan. I
believe Mr. Parsons testified that in his plan there was some
of that, and I think I'll refer you back to his testimony.
Q Well, you testified that in your view this was the
most educationally sound program.
A Yes. Geographic attendance zones. I didn't say how
to - -
Q Not this plan?
A I said geographical attendance zones is a good plan
for the administrative operation of a school system.
Q Were you referring specifically to this plan?
A No, sir, not specifically to a given line on a given
street. I wouldn't know that much about Little Rock.
Q All right, now, if it were possible to draw a geo
graphic line in an east-west direction as opposed to a north-
south direction, and that would achieve substantial racial
balance, would you say that that plan was a more satisfactory
plan in terms of its overall educational impact than a plan
which had no racial integration in several schools involved?
A If the only re&bos it was done was to achieve
balance, then it's no better.
Q Is it any worse?
A It would be no worse or no better.
Q No worse or no better.
A No.
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CROSS - Stirabert 614
Q If it had no detriment at all from the plan which
achieved no integration -- no racial balance and no racial
integration, but had the added benefit of achieving racial
balance, what would you say of the comparative value of those
two plans?
A Comparative ratio of probably zero, it wouldn’t make
any difference, unless you're going to look at the movement
of bodies by race as a contributing factor to education --
Q Is it any factor at all?
A Not really.
Q Not at all.
A Not at all, as far as education is concerned.
Q Could the economic mix of the classroom -- only with
regard to race at the moment --is the economic mix of the
classroom of any value whatsoever?
A Yes, I would say so.
Q If, regardless of race, a method were devised to
balance the school economically, as far as its economic balanc
and mix, would that have any special benefits intrinsic in
itself?
A Yes, it would have some value.
Q And that would be a constituent of the capital "E"
education?
A
Q
I would think so, yes.
But it is your testimony that the racial mix would
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CROSS - Stimbert 615
not be a constituent of the capital "E" education? Race, per
se.
A Race, per se, right.
Q Do you consider it of any value in facing the adult
like, which you have said has some importance in the education:!
scheme, that a child be confronted with an integrated atmos
phere in his educational experiences?
A I would say that probably the educational system may
offer some of that in other ways than by the kind of activities
we're describing.
Q What other ways?
A Well, the athletic programs, for example. There are
other kinds
Q Do you mean athletic programs where a white team
plays a
A We are a desegregated society, to a certain extent,
as far as some activities are concerned. Or those that are no1:
desegregated can be desegregated. It doesn't necessarily have
to mean that this particular child cannot learn or can learn
better if there issoraeone of the opposite race next to him.
That's all that I have said. That, as a factor, per se, has
nothing to do -- I've got more faith in Negro children than to
believe they have to have that condition before they can learn,
0 Just before we conclude, let me see if I can recapitu
late what you're saying.
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CROSS - Stimbert 616
Q Are you saying that a constituent of the capital "E”
education is the ability of the child to cope with and apprecir
his social atmosphere around him and the society around him?
A Right.
Q It is incumbent upon the school system to help him
develop his self-concept of his place in that society as well
as the way he looks at that society and that society looks at
him?
A Very definitely.
Q Is that an important function of the school?
A Very important function.
Q Very important.
A Yes.
Q Is that ability, that self-concept, and that ability
of the society to relate to the individual one which involves
getting along in a racially mixed society?
A Yes, that's true.
Q Do you know of any way in which white children are
aided in this method of adjusting to the integrated society
other than involvement in the integrated schools?
A Yes, there would be many.
Q All right, tell me.
A Have you got a week?
Q Tell me as best you know how.
THE COURT: We don’t have a week.
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BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Tell me without expending a week.
A Well, the only activities that I'm enumerating are
those that have to do with the classroom itself, because there
are many other kinds -- community and social and athletic and
recreational, cultural. It’s limitless.
Q All right.
A And I'm conscious of the fact that we are trying to
lo some of those things, and I think it is terribly important
that we do it.
Q Can you tell me what the school is doing, spccifical
any development within the school itself, that you are doing
to aid this process on behalf of the white child?
A Which one of the 130?
Q Tell me anything tht the Memphis schools are doing
to aid this process in a non-integrated white school, on behalf
of the white children. YOu have identified it as a problem
that the white children should be aided with by the school.
Now, tell me what the schools do to aid in this -- xn the white
schools, without integration.
A Well, when you say ’’white schools” , aren’t you over
looking the fact that I said all but one school has desegregate
faculties?
q Tell me how many --
A When the girls -- I'll be very specific, and I don’t
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know that it's helpful at all -- but in our, shall we call it
CROSS - Stimbert 6X9
"silk stocking" neighborhood, the girls at White Station High
School are taking home economics and learning about consumer
buying and the best cuts of meat and how to prepare them and
how to plan a party. Those girls are all taking home economic:;
under a Negro home economics teacher.
It just seems to me that that's just as important
as anything we've talked about.
Q How many Negro teachers do you have at that white --
at that "silk stocking" school?
A About four at that school at the present time. There
will be more than that.
Q How many teachers do you have there at that school?
A At that school, around sixty.
Q Well, do you have --
A We're playing the numbers game again, you see.
Q We've been playing that all along.
A Yes, that's our difficulty.
Q Now, tell me something else that that school does --
is that an all-white schools in terms of its pupils?
A No, it has about -- you say "all-white" school again
and I picked one way out east -- but actually it has about
a hundred or 125 Negro pupils.
Q Do you have any all-white schools in the Memphis --
A Yes, we have small all-white schools.
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CROSS Stimbert 620
Q How many?
A Probably fifteen or twenty.
Q Fifteen or twenty.
A Out of a hundred and thirty.
Q All right. What do you do for the pupils in those
schools to help them meet this objective which you say is
important to the school child?
A The desegregation of faculty, the complete desegre
gation of the athletic program, all --
Q All right, wait a second, let's take them one at a
time.
In the desegregation of the athletic program, insofai
as those children in those all-white schools, what does that
mean?
A That means plenty.
Q What does it mean in terms of where does the desegre
gation take place?
A Desegregation takes place not only on the athletic
field, but on the -- at the event itself. I’m talking about
the event itself. This is only one of the --
Q Would they be competitive with the other student
bodies?
A Right. Yes, definitely.
THE COURT: I understand that.
THE WITNESS: And children from all the schools go
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CROSS - Stinibert
to journaiism ciass. That's why I said it would take a week
to list all the things that are absolutely sponsored by either
community groups or by the school that have no racial label on
them. But the children and the young people experiencing those
are getting desegregated experience.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Mr. Stimbert, is you have de facto residential segre
gation in a city, how do you cure that in terms of the neigh
borhood school system concept?
A I’m not about to attempt to give you a formula for
curing de facto segregation.
Q Is pairing one of the ways?
A I would doubt it.
Q You doubt it?
A I doubt it.
Q Is an educational park one of the ways?
A No.
Q It is not one of the ways.
A No.
Q Is transportation one of the ways?
A I don't think this is a school problem. I don't
think de facto segregation is the school's problem.
Q Do you see the schools having any possible solution
to that problem?
Yes, I've been describing some of them in my testimo:
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A
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REDIRECT Stinibcrt 622
0 Is the neighborhood school concept the only valid
educational theory?
A Is the what now?
Q The neighborhood school concept the only valid edu
cational theory?
A I would say at this point in our development as a
nation, yes, and it's becoming increasingly more important. I
don’t think there is any question about it.
0 Do you have any statistical date which supports your
view that it is safer to walk to school than to have children
transported to schools in terms of accidents?
A No, I have no statistics. A child walking across the
street can get killed as far as that’s concerned.
MR. K AP LAN: Th an k you.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q Only one point, Dr. Stimbert.
Would whatever educational benefits that might accru:
from an economically mixed school be worth the price of aban-
the neighborhood school system to achieve it?
A No, because as I said, there are many variables, and
the economic variable is only one. I tried to make that point,
that the school would have to be concerned with all the vari
ables .
MR. LIGHT: Thank you, sir.
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RECROSS - Stimbert 623
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Would you say the pairing of schools would require
abandonment of the facilities, as you understand that concept?
A Not necessarily, depending again on the location in
the city, whether you paired t\*o schools, whether you paired
four, whether you abandon one and used three.
Q Does the educational park necessarily contemplate
anything other than future development of schools?
A Most of the discussions that I've heard about educa
tional parks do pertain to the future development.
Q Have you ever taught teachers?
A Have I ever taught teachers?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q Where?
A At Memphis State University, for about ten years,
a 7:00 o'clock in the morning class.
MR. KAPLAN: Thank you.
MR. LIGHT: Do you teach college professors, too, on
occasion?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. KAPLAN: That's all.
THE COURT: V/e will recess until 9:15 in the morning.
(Whereupon, at 4:50 o'clock, p.m., the above-entitled
RECROSS EXAMINATION
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proceedings were in recess, to reconvene at 9:15 o ’clock, a.m.
on the morning of the following day, December 20, 1968.)
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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
DELORES CLARK, et cl, !
Plaintiffs,
v.
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, et al,
No. LR-64-C-155
Defendants.
x
U. S. Post Office and Courthouse
Little Rock, Arkansas
Friday, December 20, 1968
BE IT REMEMBERED, That the above-entitled matter
was continued after adjournment from December IS, 1958, before
the Honorable GORDON E. YOUNG, United States District Judge,
commencing at 9:15 o'clock, a.m.
APPEARANCES:
On behalf of plaintiffs:
JOHN W. WALKER, Esq., and
BURL C. ROTENBERRY, Esq., of
Walker & Rotenberry,
1820 West Thirteenth Street,
Little Rock, Arkansas; and
PHILLIP KAPLAN, Esq., and
JOHN P. SIZEMORE, Esq., of
McMath, Leatherman, Woods & Youngdahl,
711 West Third Street,
Little Rock, Arkansas.
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On behalf of defendants:
HERSCHEL H. FRIDAY, JR., Esq.,
ROBERT V. LIGHT, Esq., and
JOE D. BELL, Esq., of
Smith, Williams, Friday & Bowen,
Boyle Building,
Little Rock, Arkansas.
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C O N T E N T S
WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
Wins low Drummond 628 645 652 -
Dr. Dan W. Dodson 655 691
Afternoon Session - 714
Dr. Dan W. Dodson,
Resumed 714 734 739
William R. Meeks, Jr. 740
Dr. Edwin N. Barron, Jr. 752 766 769 -
William R. Meeks, Jr.,
Recalled 772 775 - -
T. E. Patterson 780 784 - -
Floyd W. Parsons,
Recalled 788
Harry Fowler 794 - - -
EXHIBITS
For Identification In evidence
Plaintiff's:
No. 3 745 745
No. 4 749 749
No. 5 774
No. 6 800 800
Defendant's:
No. 28 649 649
Nos. 29, 30 776 776
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P R O C E E D I N G S
T H E COURT: N o w , h o w s h a l l we p r o c e e d this m o r n i n g ,
g e n t l e m e n ?
F o r t h e c o n v e n i e n c e o f the p a r t i e s a n d t h e i r w i t n e s s ;
h o w s h a l l w e p r o c e e d this m o r n i n g ?
MR. F R I D A Y : Y o u r H o n o r , t h e d e f e n d a n t s , s u b j e c t to
n o c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n o f Dr. G o l d h a m m e r , s u b j e c t t o p u t t i n g the
c o p i e s o f the e x h i b i t f r o m t h e M e t r o p l a n r e p o r t and, Y o u r
H o n o r , s u b j e c t to v e r i f i c a t i o n , it h a s b e e n c a l l e d t o m y
a t t e n t i o n the O r e g o n r e p o r t we p u t in m a y n o t b e c o m p l e t e .
Mr. W a l k e r w o u l d w a n t t h a t in and, b y a g r e e m e n t , we
c a n s u b s t i t u t e one t h a t is c o m p l e t e .
T H E C O U R T : A r e t h e s e p a g e s f r o m t h e M e t r o p l a n —
t h e t h r e e t h a t w e r e h a n d e d t o me?
MR. F R I D A Y : Y o u r H o n o r , t h e t w o p a g e s t h a t w e r e
p u t in o u t o f it s h o w e d t h e m a k e u p b y o f f i c e r s a n d p a r t i c i p a n t s
a n d t h e o n l y r e a s o n I p u t t h i s in wa s just to s h o w — t h i s is
the s e c o n d p a g e , a n d r e a l l y th e s t a n d a r d s a p p e a r on p a g e 33.
T h e f i r s t o n e d i d n o t h i n g b u t t o s h o w th e p a r t i c i p a n t s in the
M e t r o p o l i t a n A r e a P l a n n i n g C o m m i s s i o n .
T H E C O U R T : T h a t is i n a d d i t i o n to an e a r l i e r e x h i b i t
MR. F R I D A Y ; N o sir. I p u l l e d t h e s e o u t o f the l a r g e r
r e p o r t a n d just w a n t e d t o p u t in t h e s e two p a g e s fx’o m the
r e p o r t . On e s i m p l y i d e n t i f i e s w h o is in M e t r o p l a n , t h e f i r s t
p a g e , a n d p a g e 33 is a c o p y o f t h e s t a n d a r d s w e h a v e t a l k e d
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about.
THE COURT: What are the three pages the Clerk
handed me?
MR. FRIDAY: They shouldn't have been there, Your
Honor.
Subject to that, we are going to rest in chief,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. The plaintiffs may proceed.
MR. WALKER: Thank you, Your Honor.
MR. ROTENBERRY: Your Honor, I would like to call
Mr. Winslow Drummond.
THE COURT: All right.
Thereupon,
WINSLOW DRUMMOND
having been called as a witness by counsel for plaintiffs,
and having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q For the record, Mr. Drummond, would you state your
name, your residence address, and your occupation, please?
A Winslow Drummond, 731H "F" Street, Little Rock. I
am a lawyer.
Q For how long have you been a practicing attorney in
Little Rock?
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A Eleven and a half years.
Q You are presently a member of the Board of Directors
of the Little Rock School District, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And for how long have you served in such capacity?
A Slightly more than two years.
Q Were you elected in September of 1966?
A That is correct.
Q Mr. Drummond, are Board members elected from the
community at large, or do they run from districts within the
School District?
A They are elected from the community at large.
Q Are you familiar generally with the high school
attendance areas in which the other Board members reside?
A Yes,sir.
Q Can you state in which attendance area the other
Board members reside?
A With the exception of Mr. Patterson — are you
talking about on this plan, Mr. Rotenberry?
Q Yes, on the School Board's proposed plan, Defendant'
Exhibit 22.
A With the exception of Mr. Patterson, all of the
members of the Board reside in the Hall High attendance zone.
------ 629--
Q And does that include yourself?
A Yes, sir.
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630
Q Hr. Drummond, were you present at a meeting of the
School Board on November 15th of this year at which the School
Board adopted a resolution approving Defendant's Exhibit 22,
the proposed attendance zone plan?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was there discussion of that plan prior to a vote
being taken thereon?
A Yes, six'.
Q Was there consideration of that plan by individual
Board members prior to that meeting?
A Speaking only for myself, I had not seen the plan
until it was presented at the Board Meeting on November 15th.
Q How did you vote on the resolution, Mr. Drummond?
A On the resolution to adopt the plan, as reflected
on Defendant’s Exhibit 22, I voted against it.
Q I believe you were one of two of the seven Board
members voting in opposition to the proposed plan, is that
correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, just prior to the vote being taken on that
meeting on November 15th, I believe you made a statement
expressing your reasons for your opposition to the plan, which
statement you had reduced to writing at that time, is that
correct?
A Yes, sir. The statement was actually prefatory to
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a motion which I made, which motion was defeated.
Q Your statement, the verbatim text of your statement,
has been introduced into this record as, I think, Defendant's
Exhibit 27 as a part of the minutes of that meeting.
Referring to the text of your statement, appearing
in Defendant’s Exhibit 27, Mr. Drummond, does that appear to
be the full text of your statement?
THE COURT: Let’s assume that it is.
THE WITNESS: I am sure it is. The minutes, I believ
that were prepared by the School District's office.
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q Would you state, without reading your statement,
the reasons as expressed therein that you opposed the adloptic
of the present plan?
A Essentially, I opposed it — I think there were
several reasons stated, but the primary reason was that I
thought the plan, in effect, was prepared by the members of
the Board, as the members of the Board are required, of course
to prepare a plan, but the members of the Board who voted in
favor of the plan had overriden the judgment of the Superin
tendent as to what should be done.
The Board had actually laid down policy guidelines
for the Superintendent at a meeting held in September, and I
felt that an earlier proposal drawn up by the Superintendent
met those policy guidelines one hundred per cent; and for tha1
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reasons I felt that the judgment of the professional educator
who is hired to administer the affairs of our District had bee
overriden.
Q Mr. Drummond, you referred to an earlier proposal
or plan drawn up by the Superintendent pursuant to guidelines
laid down by the Board at a meeting on September 24, is that
correct?
THE COURT: I believe that’s been referred to as
the October 10th plan.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I wasn't sure about the
September date when the guidelines were laid down, if that’s
the date.
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q Was there a meeting of the School Board on September
24th?
A Mr. Rotenberry, that’s the date — yes, that's
correct.
Q And was it at that meeting that the Board prescribed
guidelines within which the Superintendent was to promulgate
a plan for implementing desegregation in the Court's re-settinjg
of this hearing in August?
A Yes.
Q Would you look at Plaintiff's Exhibit 2, and state
whether or not those pupil enrollment figures reflect the
Superintendent's proposal as distributed to the Board pursuant
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to the Board's directive of September 24?
A That is correct.
THE COURT: What is that Exhibit number?
THE WITNESS: Plaintiff's Exhibit 2.
BY HR. ROTENBERRY:
Q Now, did you favor that proposal or tentative plan
over the one ultimately adopted?
A Yes, sir.
Q And why did you favor that proposal over the plan
presently adopted?
THE COURT: He has already given what he said \*ere
the primary reasons. I guess he is asking for other reasons.
THE WITNESS: Well, I felt that this particular plan
and the only difference between the two — of any importance a
far as the actual plan itself is concerned is that the tentati
proposal of October 10th would have provided some negro enroll
ment at Hall High School, whereas the plan reflected in Defend
ant's Exhibit 22, in effect, provides none.
BY HR. ROTENBERRY:
Q According to the projections made in the proposal
of October 10th, Plaintiff's Exhibit 2, what would have been
the projected negro enrollment at Hall High School?
A Eighty pupils for the 1869-70 school year.
Q Mr. Drummond, Mr. Parsons has previously testified
that the small number of negro students at Hall High School
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i s a n u n d e s i r a b l e s i t u a t i o n . Do y o u a g r e e w i t h t h e S u p e r i n t e n d
e n t ’ s ju d g m e n t i n t h a t r e s p e c t ?
A I d o ,
Q Do y o u f e e l h i s p r o p o s a l c o n t a i n e d t h e r e i n P l a i n
t i f f ’ s E x h i b i t 2 w o u ld h a v e t o som a e x t e n d r e m e d ie d a n u n d e s i r
a b l e s i t u a t i o n ?
A N o t f u l l y , b u t c e r t a i n l y t o som e e x t e n t , i t w o u ld
h a v e .
Q I t a k e i t t h a t t h e p r o p o s a l o f O c t o b e r 1 0 t h , d id i t
i n v o l v e a n y k in d o f a t r a n s p o r t a t i o n s y s t e m ?
A N o , s i r .
Q D id i t m e r e l y i n v o l v e t h e l o c a t i o n o f b o u n d a r y l i n e s
i n a s l i g h t l y d i f f e r e n t p o s i t i o n ?
A W e l l , d e p e n d s how y o u i n t e r p r e t t h e w o rd " s l i g h t l y " .
I t d i d i n v o l v e d i f f e r e n t b o u n d a r y l i n e s .
THE COURT: B u t o f n o s i g n i f i c a n c e , p a r t i c u l a r l y ,
e x c e p t f o r t h e H a l l b o u n d a r y l i n e .
THE W ITN ESS: T h a t i s c o r r e c t , Y o u r H o n o r .
T h e o n l y d i f f e r e n c e , r e a l l y , w a s w i t h r e s p e c t t o
t h e H a l l b o u n d a r y l i n e s . I b e l i e v e t h e r e w e r e som a o t h e r
c h a n g e s w i t h r e s p e c t t o c e r t a i n e l e m e n t a r y s c h o o l s w h ic h M r.
P a r s o n s o u t l i n e d y e s t e r d a y .
THE COURT: W ould t h e y h a v e h a d a n y a p p r e c i a b l e
e f f e c t on t h e r a c i a l —
THE W ITN ESS: A t t h e e l e m e n t a r y l e v e l ?
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THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Frankly, I do not know.
THE COURT: All right.
BY HR. ROTENBERRY:
Q Mr. Drummond, going back just a moment, what were
the guidelines prescribed by the Board at its meeting on
September 24th for Superintendent Parsons to work within in
the development of a plan?
THE COURT: Mr. Rotenberry, they are in evidence.
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q Mr. Drummond, with reference to previous orders of
this and other courts regarding the implementation of deseg
regation in this School District, what do you understand your
obligation to be as a School Board member?
A I have an affirmative obligation to see to it that
a dual school system is eliminated in this community and,
conversely, that a unified system is established.
Q Would this include the formulation of policy and
guidelines designed to disestablish a pre-existing dual
system?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would this include the formation of policies and
guidelines to eliminate racially identifiable schools?
A As I understand the Constitution, it would be.
Q As you interpret Defendant’s Exhibit 22, the pupil
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desegregation plan, will it eliminate racially identifiable
schools in this district?
A No, sir.
Q What are the reasons why it will not?
A Well, I feel that with this type plan, we have,
quote, Negro, unquote, schools in certain areas of the city
and, quote, white, unquote, schools in other areas, and they
will be identifiable as such.
Q Why will that be the case, Hr. Drummond?
A Because of the student enrollment at the particular
school. This will be the primary reason.
I think there will, perhaps, be others, such as the
names of the schools.
Q Does it have anything to do with the housing pattern
in the District?
A Very definitely.
Q Do you think — were you aware of the housing patter
_ did you take the housing patterns within the District into
consideration at the time various alternative plans were
considered?
A I’m not sure which plans you're referring to, Mr.
Rotenberry. We have had a number of plans.
Q The alternatives considered since this hearing was
recessed last August.
A Yes, housing patterns in the city were considered.
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Q W ere c o n s i d e r e d b y y o u ?
A Me, personally?
Q Yes.
A Y e s , s i r .
Q Do y o u know w h e th e r o r n o t t h e y w e r e c o n s i d e r e d by
o t h e r B o a r d m e m b e rs?
A Y e s , s i r .
Q I s i t y o u r t e s t i m o n y t h a t t h e B o a r d w a s a w a r e o r
c o n s c i o u s o f e x i s t i n g h o u s i n g p a t t e r n s a t t h e t im e t h e y
d e v e l o p e d t h e p r o p o s e d p l a n ?
A Y e s , s i r .
Q M r. D rum m ond, w o u ld y o u a g r e e t h a t t h e p r o p o s e d
p l a n e m b r a c e s w h a t i s c a l l e d t h e n e ig h b o r h o o d s c h o o l c o n c e p t ?
A A t t h e e l e m e n t a r y l e v e l , y e s , a n d a t t h e j u n i o r
h i g h l e v e l , p r o b a b l y . A t t h e s e n i o r h i g h l e v e l , t o a l e s s e r
e x t e n d . And I t h i n k t h i s n a t u r a l l y f o l l o w s f r o m t h e f a c t t h a t
i t ? s d i f f i c u l t t o d e s c r i b e , f o r e x a m p l e , t h e g r e e n a r r o w i n
D e f e n d a n t ' s E x h i b i t 22 a s a n e i g h b o r h o o d .
Q We w i l l a g r e e . B u t w h a t I ’ m g e t t i n g a t i s t h i s .
W ould y o u d e s c r i b e t h e p r o p o s e d p l a n a s a n e ig h b o r h o o d s c h o o l
s y s t e m , a s d i s t i n g u i s h e d , s a y , f r o m a n e d u c a t i o n a l p a r k s y s t e i r
o r a s y s t e m i n v o l v i n g p a i r i n g ?
A Y e s , s i r .
Q M r. D rum m ond, w i t h o u t s u g g e s t i n g t h a t t h e n e ig h b o r h c
s c h o o l c o n c e p t i s i n a l l c i r c u m s t a n c e s e d u c a t i o n a l l y u n s o u n d ,
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are there reasons why you think it may be educationally
unsound in this instance?
A Please understand, Mr. Rotenberry, I am not a
professional educator —
Q I understand that.
A — but I personally feel that with the exception
possibly of the convenience of the students in getting to
school, and from my experience on the Board, it seems to me
more probably the convenience of the parents of the students,
the neighborhood school system, in my opinion, does not have
much to commend it from an educational standpoint.
Q Do you feel that there were or are other alternative
approaches besides this neighborhood school concept that are
both educationally sound and feasible?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you state what you feel some of these alter
natives are?
A Well, the best one I have seen was prepared by the
Superintendent in December, 1967, the so-called Parsons Plan.
Q That involved zoning and a transportation system,
did it not?
A At the high school level, it involved zoning; it
involved a transportation system at the high school level,
and also pairing or complexes in two areas of the city for
elementary age children.
638
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Q Mr. Drummond, in that connection, there has been
testimony concerning a pairing of five elementary schools to
be known as the Beta Complex. Are you familiar with that
proposal, that idea?
A Yes, sir, that was part of the Superintendent's
plan of December, 1967. It involved Lee, Franklin, Oakhurst,
Garland and Stephens Schools in what I would call the near
southwest portion of the city.
THE COURT: Please give me the names again, Mr.
Drummond.
THE WITNESS: Lee, Oakhurst, Stephens, Garland, and
Franklin.
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q What were, as you understand it, the objectives of
the Beta Complex?
A The objectives of the Beta Complex were several;
one, to stabilize residental patterns in a traditional neighbc
hood; secondly, to establish what was described as satisfactor
racial balance in each of the five schools within the complex;
and also utilize schools that were close enough to each other
geographically so that transportation would not have to be
provided to students attending those schools.
Q To your knowledge, would this involve any substantia
additional expenditures of money by the District?
A I believe the figures are contained in Mr. Parsons'
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report and involved primarily a remodeling of Lee School,
which was to serve as the complex center, so to speak.
THE COURT: What do you mean by "complex center"?
THE WITNESS: As I understand the concept, the
superintendent was recommending that four schools, with the
exception of Lee, actually provide the actual classroom space
for most students, and that Lee be the headquarters for the
administrative staff of the total complex, and also special
education areas —- remedial reading, speach therapy and things
of this kind.
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q All existing facilities would have been utilized,
none would have been abandoned, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Mr. Drummond, was any consideration given, to your
knowledge, of implementing the Beta Complex at the time sub
sequent to the recess of this hearing in August and prior to
the adoption of the present plan?
A There was no consideration given to it by the Board,
as such. As I recall, I believe Mr. Parsons and I may have
talked about it on one occasion — he drives me home frequentl
from Board meetings, because I don't have any — my own car.
I think we talked about it in the car one night, and I suggest
the possibility of including the Beta Complex in any plan
because of the minimal cost, in effect, but I also coupled my
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statement with the thought that I felt certain the Board would
not approve that. I think that's as much consideration as was
ever given to it, as far as I know.
Q And it was not, as I understand it, formally or
seriously considered between the time this hearing was recesse
in August and this date, is that correct?
A To my knowledge, it hasn't been.
Q In your own individual judgment, is the Beta Complex
plan still a feasible plan for further implementation of
desegregation within the district?
A It is.
Q Mr. Drummond, before I conclude, let me ask you if
you know about the financial condition of the Little Rock
School District, generally?
A I'm supposed to. I don't have any figures with me.
Q Well, do you know whether or not the School District
has any surplus funds at this time?
A There are no surplus funds whatsoever in our operatin,
budget. There are some funds in what we refer to as our bond
account. What the amount of those funds would be at the preser-
time, someone else would have to give you the figures.
Q For what purposes may these surplus funds in your
bond account be used?
A These are used for capital improvement which we
undertake almost monthly. For example, we contracted for roof
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repairs and library, and these are matters that, as I say,
come up at almost every meeting, where we award contracts and
by and large the money for payment of these obligations come
from our bond account.
Q All right. With regard to your operating account
funds, do you know, since you have been on the Board, whether
or not the School District hashad a surplus or unexpended
balance, based on its annual budget at the end of each fiscal
year?
A We have the budget which we approve which always
provides for a contingency. This contingency has generally
run roughly $350,000.00 annually, but at this particular time,
we have a budget adopted which provides for a contingency of
approximately $H0,000.00 , and this is due to the fact that
in effect we are living off last year's income and don’t have
enough coming in this year to maintain this contingency at
its usual level.
Q With the exception of this year, do you have an
idea, in round figures, what the operating fund surplus has
been at the end of the previous fiscal period?
THE COURT: There is a difference between the word
"surplus" and the word "contingency" fund.
MR. ROTENBERRY: As I understand it, there is a
budget contingency fund.
THE COURT: And you hope you don’t use all the monej
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Sometimes you do.
BY HR. ROTENBERRY:
Q What was the amount of the unexpended contingency
fund, if you know, Mr. Drummond, from the last fiscal period?
A I do not know.
Q Was there one, to your knowledge?
A There was.
Q Do you expect there to be one at the end of this
current fiscal period?
A I hope there will be.
Q Do you know the present status of the bonded indebt
edness of the District?
A Hr. Rotenberry, I am sorry, I do not have that figur
Q All right. Do you have knowledge of at what future
times certain of the bonded indebtedness of the School Distric
will pay out?
A The only one with which I am familiar is one which
will expire in the very near future which will, in effect,
provide us with one and one half mills additional, which is
not obligated to any particular bond issue.
Q All right. Can you convert this one and one half
mills into dollars and cents annually at the time this becomes
available?
A We can convert it, provided that the present rate
6H3
of millage is approved by the voters of this District in
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March of 1969.
Q I understand that, but could you state for the
record, assuming that would happen, what would this give the
School District in terms of dollars and cents annually in
terms of mills?
A As I recall, one mill would support a bond issue of
roughly $1,600,000.00. Therefore, one and a half mills, I
assume, would be $2,400,000.00.
Q And did you state exactly when this additional
millage will become available to the District?
A It will become available to the District in March,
1969, if the voters approve the present rate of millage for
the District, which is 47 mills.
Q I understand.
THE COURT i Is that restricted to capital construct!
THE WITNESS: You will have to ask Mr. Friday.
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q Do you know what the present maximum millage of the
School District is?
A I'm not sure I understand the question. We have a
rate of millage.
Q All right, the rate.
A 47 mills.
Q Now, is it your understanding that at the present
time that's as high as the School District can go in terms of
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using this millage? Is that right?
A This is the millage rate that was approved by the
voters, Mr. Rotenberry, and that's all we’ve got.
Q It is possible, is it not, that the voters could
approve a higher rate of millage?
A Yes, sir. I'd very seriously suggest that we raise
it to — that we raise it fourteen mills for the next year.
I doubt the community would buy that, but I think we need it.
MR. ROTENBERRY: That’s all, Your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY;
Q Mr. Drummond, this is a matter of probably no
significance. If Mr. Jenkins says he lives in Parkview rather
than Hall, you will accept that, of course.
A I think so. I thought Mr. Jenkins said he lived in
the Kingwood area. He may have moved. I don't know.
Q He gave me a note that says he lives in Parkview.
As I say, it's a matter of no importance, but for the record,
put Mr. Jenkins in Parkview rather than Hall.
Mr. Drummond, on the last matter of finances, you
covered the point of contingency being dangerously low, but
the millage you're talking about, you are aware that millage,
even though voted for debt services, that portion over and
above actual principal and interest requirements, is currentlj
being used for operation?
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A That's correct.
Q So any of this millage that is there, a good portion
of it right now, is in the operating fund.
A That is right.
Q Right.
You wholeheartedly supported the Parsons Plan, didn't
you, Hr. Drummond?
A Yes, sir.
Q The Board of the Little Rock School District endorse i
— approved the Parsons Plan as submitted, did they not?
A Yes, sir.
Q The evidence has already covered the results and we
won't go into that.
Nov?, to clear the record -- and I'm not clear either
— your motion on November 15th was to approve a proposal that
had been made on October 10th?
A Yes, sir.
Q That was your motion.
Now, do you know the exact differences, for the
record, Hr. Drummond, between the proposal that you moved to
approve and the proposal which is set forth on Defendant's
Exhibit 22?
A Mr. Friday, all I could do — I do not know which
streets are involved — I could —
Q Why don't you go ahead. I think that will be good
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enough, so the Court can see the exact differences, if you
can.
A The Hall High attendance zone, as shown on Defendant
Exhibit 2 , would not have included the Briarwood area bounded
on the north by Markham Street, on the west by Rodney Paraham,
on the south by 12th, and on the east by University.
The Hall High attendance zone, under the October lOt
proposal, would have extended south on University —
Q Let me just get right here.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, to clarify, if the Court
would permit me, let Mr. Parsons step up a moment. There is
no map in evidence, but Mr. Roberts can probably do it better
than I. Or Mr. Parsons.
You come up and we will just get it in the record
right now.
MR. PARSONS: I do have in my possession — this
hasn’t been introduced, I suppose — the map that was prepared
for the October 10th meeting.
MR. FRIDAY: Take this map —
THE COURT: Although this is a little irregular, I
think it will contribute to the record.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr. Drummond, I have handed you a map — let me mar>
it up at the top Defendant's Exhibit —
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, before proceeding, we have
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648
asked the defendants to provide us a copy of that document,
if such a document existed, and were advised that such a copy
did not exist, that no plan was presented at the meeting, that
it was just in the nature of notes.
THE COURT: I don't know that it was a plan. I don't
know.
THE WITNESS: If I have created that impression, I
will try to make it clear. In my statement, which I believe
is a part of the record, this was nothing more than a suggest!
or recommendation of the Superintendent submitted to the Board
for discussion, and it was never a plan, as such, which was
adopted by the Board. This was a proposal, if I may put It
that way.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Mr. Drummond, for the record, you just referred to
the October 10th proposal —
MR. WALKER: I would like to state a further ground
for objection. According to Mr. Drummond's testimony, he never
saw any plan before he went to the Board meeting on October 10
THE COURT: I*m sure a number of maps were drawn
by the staff.
MR. WALKER: I am just stating we haven't had an
opportunity to review —
THE COURT: I see no possible prejudice in it, Mr.
Walker.
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HR. WALKER: We are in no position to examine Hr.
Drummond or Hr. Parsons either, for that matter.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, all I want to do is get the
record clear. Vie can do it by testimony or Mr. Parsons has a
map. It’s immaterial to me.
THE COURT: What's the exhibit number?
MR. FRIDAY: We offer this as Defendant's Exhibit
Humber 28, Your Honor.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(The map heretofore referred to
was marked Defendant's Exhibit
Ho. 28, for identification, and
was received in evidence.)
BY HR. FRIDAY:
Q Do you want to look at it Mr. Drummond?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell now by looking at it — go ahead with
your testimony, and referring to the two maps, point out for
the record the differences between the two. You have already
covered Briarwood.
A Briarwood, and what would actually be the University
Park Urban Renewal area north of 12th Street, which is include
in the plan reflected on Defendant's Exhibit No. 22.
Q Included in Hall?
A Yes, in the Hall High attendance area.
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Q All right.
A The plan — the proposal reflected in Defendant's
Exhibit No. 28 would have utilized a different boundary arounc
the Hall High attendance area, and I think the best way to
describe this would be proceeding from the west, the Hall High
attendance zone would have started at the Arkansas River just
east of Robinwood and proceeded south to Reservoir Road to
Rodney Parham, down Rodney Parham to Markham Street, and then
east on Markham to what is referred to as Arthur Street, and
then I believe that would just about sever the Mall Shopping
Center and proceed south through Mall Shopping Center and Sear
Roebuck, and so forth, down to 20th Street, which would includ
in effect, all the business establishments on the west side of
University but probably no residences. Then east on 20th to
Brown Street, north on Brown to Lee Avenue — pardon me, that*
Lee School, north on Brown to 12th Street, west on 12th to
Madison, which is the War Memorial Park area, and then roughly
north up Spruce Street arid through North Lookout and on to the
river.
Q Mr. Drummond — and I will hand the map to Your
Honor, if Your Honor wants to see it — what it really changes
if north is this way, in the southeast area of the Hall High
zone, as it's set forth on number 22, 28 would have extended
it further southeast toward Central High School?
A That’s correct.
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651
Q And picked up in the Stephens area about eighty
Negro students who have been placed in the Hall High zone, is
that correct?
A Yes, sir,,
Q Are there any other differences between the two?
A The only other differences between the two would
relate to the elementary schools, and I'm not familiar with
the particular changes involved there. I believe Mr. Parsons
mentioned one or two yesterday. I do not have and don't recall
having seen a map of the elementary attendance areas, which
were proposed on October 10th.
Q Well, there also was a difference between the Centra
and Mann Districts. Actually, Mr. Drummond, do you know what
that difference was?
A I’d have to look at the two maps, Mr. Friday.
Q All right, take a look at those.
A Yes, Defendant’s Exhibit 22, the present plan,
apparently extends the Central High zone not quite so far to
the east. The railroad on there is not on this one.
Q Well, I think really when you say "not quite so far
to the east”, that means the Mann zone is extended farther
west toward Central High, is this correct, now?
A On Defendant’s Exhibit 22, the Mann zone extends
further west, yes sir.
Q Toward Central High?
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A Yes, sir*.
Q Any others?
A I'm not aware of any others.
Q Hr. Drummond, are you aware of any other available
feasible alternative to the Board for 1969-70 other than a
zoning plan, either as embodied in the Defendant's Exhibit 22
or 28, or with some line adjustments? Do you understand what
I'm asking?
A I understand your question, Mr. Friday. I personally
feel that the Beta Complex could be included in this plan
feasibly.
Q Aside from that, are you aware of any other feasible
alternative?
A No, I am not, because anything else would involve
transportation.
HR. FRIDAY: That's all I have, Your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. ROTENBERRY:
Q Mr. Drummond, when we talk about available feasible
alternatives, when we talk about feasible, why do you not
believe that any plan which would involve transportation is
not feasible?
A At the present time it’s not feasible because of
lack of funds.
Would transportation be one of the few ways by whichQ
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653
to achieve desirable racial balance or substantial integration
of pupils within the District?
A Yes, sir.
Q In your judgment, do you believe that any plan could
be devised which the voters would approve which would bring
about the substantial integration or desirable racial balance?
A This is speculation, Mr. Rotenberry.
Q I understand.
A The voters in this particular school district seem
willing to approve about anything when things get to bad that
they ean!t stand it any more, but that's not the situation
right now.
Q So your best judgment about the attitude of the
voters, in answer to that question —
THE COURT: Are you talking about money, increased
money?
MR. ROTENBERRY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: You used the term "increased integration"
That's something different.
MR. ROTENBERRY: Your Honor, as I understand Mr.
Drummond's testimony, any plan which would achieve a desirable
degree of racial balance or substantial integration of pupils
would involve additional expenditures.
THE COURT: Fox' transportation.
MR. ROTENBERRY: For transportation or for some
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654
other purpose.
THE WITNESS: You added the word "feasible", too,
which to me was the crucial word in the question.
BY HR. ROTENBERRY:
Q What do you understand the word "feasible" to be,
as it qualifies a plan?
A A plan that is capable of being implemented.
Q And that requires money, does it not?
A It does.
Q So when we talk about feasibility, we are talking
about the economic capacity of the district to implement some
plan?
A Yes, sir.
Q And in turn, we are talking about the willingness
of the voters to vote money for the District.
A If more money is required, we must have voter
approval, yes sir.
Q Then does the implementation of a plan designed to
achieve racial balance or eliminate racially identifiable
schools depend upon the electorate?
A Well, are you talking about a feasible plan again?
Q Yes.
A Yes, sir.
MR. ROTENBERRY: I believe that's all.
MR. FRIDAY: No further questions.
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655
(Witness excused.)
MR. KAPLAN: Dr. Dodson, Your Honor.
Thereupon,
DAN W . DODSON
having been called as a witness by counsel for plaintiffs, and
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Dr. Dodson, would you state your name, address and
present occupation?
A My name is Dan W. Dodson. I live at 4 Washington
Square Village, New York City.
Q And your present occupation?
A I am Professor of Education, Director of the Center
for Human Relations and Community Studies, and Chairman of
the Department of Education, Sociology and Anthropology of
the School of Education at New York University.
Q And how long have you held your position as
Professor of Education at New York University?
A Since 1351.
Q How long have you held your chairmanship of the
Center?
A Since 1957.
0 Dr. Dodson, would you state for us, please, your
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educational background?
A My high school education was Mt. Vernon High School
in Mt. Vernon, Texas, my BA Degree was MeMurry College, Abilen
Texas. My Master’s is Southern Methodist University. My Ph.D.
io New York University.
Q Do you hold any other honorary degrees?
A I have one honorary degree, Doctor of Literature, I
guess it is, MeMurry College.
Q Have you given any other lecture series or been a
visiting professor at any other places except New York Univer
sity?
A I was an instructor in Social Science at MeMurry.
This was after I finished there. I was a lecturer at S.M.U.
Otherwise, I have had no other instructional posts. For four
and a half years, I S t o 19^8, I was Executive Director of
the Mayor’s Committee on Unity of New York City.
Q Dr. Dodson, have you been involved in the training
of other doctoral candidates?
A Yes, sir.
Q In what capacity?
A Both as chairman of the doctoral committees in
graduate work and members of the sponsoring committees.
Q Approximately how many — go ahead.
A I have chaired the doctor*tl committees of now 85
Ph.D. candidates
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Q Dr. Dodson, have you served as an advisor or in any
other capacity to various school boards?
A Yes.
Q Could you tell us which school boards and in what
capacity you have served with those school boards?
A I served with the Washington, D.C. , School Board,
1953-54, in the desegregation of their schools. I lead a study
team and designed a plan for desegregation of the New Rochelle
School System the date I've forgotten — the early sixties.
I served as a consultant in a study of the Englewood, New
Jersey, School System in the desegregation of that system. I
did a study of the Orange, New Jersey, School System as a
basis for the NAACP’s suit against that district. I did a
study of the Mt. Vernon, New York, School System and proposed
a desegregation plan which the Commissioner has now ordered
them to put into effect.
Q This was the Commissioner of Education?
A The State Commissioner of Education, and I served
as a consultant on several occasions to the New York City
School System. I am now working with the White Plains School
System on their high school unrest problem, and I have just
completed a study of desegregation programs or processes in
ten communities of New York State for the State Department
of Education.
Q Are you the same Dr. Dan W. Dodson referred to in
658
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1 the Second Circuit Court of Appeals case involving New Rochelle
as a specialist in the field of education and human relations?
A Yes.
Q Dr. Dodson* are you familiar with the development of
the. neighborhood school concept?
A Fairly familiar with it.
Q Would you describe for us, trace the initial develop
ment, or origins and present status of that system as a concept?
A The neighborhood school concept primarily is borrows
from the concept of the community school or the common school
It never had an integrity in the educational literature until
around 1920 when Clarence Perry, a community planner, developed
the concept of the neighborhood and the notion that the neigh! or-
hood being built around the school, with the idea that it wou!d
be within walking distance for children, the highway arteries
would be built around it so there would be no traffic through
it. There'd be a little court somewhere around it with a
flagpole where they could have Fourth of July ceremonies, and
so on.
This was the concept of little neighborhood en clave
that gave essential integrity to the concept as part of educa
tional thinking.
Q Do you understand that to be also the present concept
and present thinking as involved with that concept?
A I would not cay so.
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Q What do you understand the present concept to be?
A By and large, the neighborhood school has become a
place where people who are more privileged try to hide from
the encounter with others, and it's been made sacred in recent
thinking about in proportion as Negroes get close to it. It
has become an exclusive device, that is the opposite of the
concept of the community school.
The concept of the community school or the common
school was that it brought all of the children of the school
to a common encounter. This has exactly the opposite meaning.
Q Does it have any status or validity by itself as
an educational concept?
A Well, you will find a great amount of disagreement
as to its validity. I believe that the studies that I know
would make it very hard to defend it in terms of its achieving
a greater educational preformance of children or this kind of
thing. It*s much more a matter of convenience.
Q Dr. Dodson, could you give us yourdefinition of
education?
A Well, I think you’d perceive education in terms of
the total growth and development of the child, which could
include the total life space in which he operates and the
influences in that that work on him. The school would be only
a part of it, a formal part of it, and this would imply
utilization of whatever resources, knowledge, insight we have
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to help him grow to his maximum potential.
Q That is within the educational process itself within
the school?
A That’s right.
Q Would you refer to the map, Defendant's Exhibit 22,
where there are four high schools located? Have you had a
chance to have observation of that map before your appearance
here in the courtroom this morning?
A Yes.
Q Would you describe the high schools on that map as
neighborhood schools?
A I wouldnot.
Q Would you describe any high school in a community
or series of high schools as neighborhood schools?
A No.
Q How would you describe them?
A Fundamentally they are — well, ordinarily, I would
say they are organisations of larger complexes of the communit
larger segments of the community that are organized for conver
ience in traffic or for whatever reasons they are organized,
but fundamentally, the facility of administration, presently,
a place that is convenient for people, to get to and out of,
and so on, as possible with an education program.
Q Dr. Dodson, do you have any familiarity at ao.1 with
the Little Rock School System and particularly the Little Roc*
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High School, now Central High School, before 1957?
A Well, I heard of it and knew it by reputation a
long time before the 1956 o r '57 incident, whatever it was.
Q What was that reputation?
A It had a very high reputation, nationally known, I
think*
Q And that was the only high school in Little Rock
prior to 1957. Would you identify that as the community type
of school?
A It served the whole community or the large segment
of the community, although as a segregated one at the time. It
served the whole white community.
Q And that was the community concept?
A Yes» it brought the poor and rich together, and so
on, in a common encounter.
Q What do you mean by this "encounter" experience?
A I mean the bringing people into relationship with
each other with sufficient degree of significance that they
must interact and develop a sense of their identity worth
in relation to each other that is not established in some
patterns in which one does not validate self-hood against
other people.
Q Is this a proper function for the public schools to
serve?
A I think it’s fundamentally the basic job that I
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think the schools have to perform, one of the basic, I wouldn'
make it the only one.
Q Dr. Dodson, let’s speak for a moment of the actual
academic achievement of students. Are you aware of the measure
or the measuring devices that are used to measure the actual
performance of students in a given educational system?
A Yes.
Q And what, basically, are those?
A The achievement measures ordinarily used are reading
achievement and math achievement, although there are ethers,
the Iowa tests and many other tests of other kinds of skills,
but when we're talking about achievement, usually we're talkin
about -- wells it could be achievement in any field, but the
basic ones that have been used in dealing with this general
problem are reading and math.
Q And do these generally measure a given student’s
performance against the grade level at which he should be
expected at his physical age to perform?
A An individual child's performance is measured agains
norms that have been established on wider populations, and the
are geared by the grade level they are in school, for the most
part, and even down to the month.
Q And we would then have average grade level aehieveme
for sixth grade students who are perhaps eleven years and ten
months, is that correct?
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A Yes, a grade level achievement for the sixth grade
might he for a whole school or for a whole school system, and
this would be compared against the norms.
Q Are there studies which indicate the average grade
level achievement of noth Negroes and white students in
various portions of the United States?
A Yes.
Q And where are those studies found?
A They are found in numbers of places. The most recent
one probably is the Coleman Report of the United States Office
of Education, which attempted to do a national sampling of
children, black and white.
Q Is that also known as the Equal Opportunity in
Education Report?
A That's rigxit.
Q And is it also found in the Racial Isolation Report?
A Yes.
Q Do you have an opinion as to the variables which
go into determining different average grade levels for Negroes
and white children?
A Yes.
Q Let me preface that by asking you your — do the
tests actually show different average grade level achievement::
for the large overall groups of Negroes and whites?
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A Yes.
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Q A n d w h a t are the d i f f e r e n c e s ?
A T h e r e are s i g n i f i c a n t d i f f e r e n c e s in f a v o r of tne
w h i t e c h ildren.
Q Do y o u h a v e an o p i n i o n as to some of t h e r e a s o n s
fox'* t n o s e d i f f e r e n c e s ?
A Y e s , an d t h e y are many, of c o u r s e , a n d p a r t is the
s o c i o - e c o n o m i c d i f f e r e n c e w h i c h o c c a s i o n e d by t h e fact tnat
e c o n o m i c s t a t u s h a s p r e c l u d e d s o m e f r o m p a r t i c i p a t i n g full-
s t r e a m in e d u c a t i o n a l o p p o r t u n i t i e s . Some of it is r a c i a l , not
b e c a u s e t h ere is a d i f f e r e n c e of r a c i a l c a p a c i t y of c h i l d r e n ,
but b e c a u s e r a c i a l i s m , as it is, ha s p r o d u c e d s c a r s a n d s e l f
h o o d of m i n o r i t y c h i l d r e n t h a t h a v e no t b e e n o v e r c o m e . In part
it is b e c a u s e e d u c a t i o n a l s y s t e m s h a v e n o t l e a r n e d h o w to clos,
th e gap b e t w e e n c h i l d r e n of — tne w h o l e s y s t e m does not e x p e c
o f the m i n o r i t y c h i l d w h a t it e x p e c t s of the others. T h e y fail
m i s e r a b l y in this.
Part of it is the w h o l e i s s u e of t e s t i n g i t s elf,
that m i n o r i t y c h i l d r e n t e n d t o — at le a s t , s o m e s t u d i e s h a v e
s h o w n — I r v i n g K a t z ’s s t u d i e s p a r t i c u l a r l y h a v e s h o w n that
e v e n c o l l e g e y o u n g s t e r s , N e g r o c h i l d r e n !'A” a n d "B'1 f o rms of
the s a m e t e s t , w h e n t h e y are t o l d in one t e s t t h e y are b e i n g
t e s t e d a g a i n s t the N e g r o p o p u l a t i o n s c o r e h i g h e r t h a n w h e n
t h e y are t o l d t h e y are in c o m p e t i t i o n w i t h th e w h i t e s . T h e y
t e n d to w i t h d r a w in th e t e s t in w h i c h t h e y t h i n k t h e y are in
c o m p e t i t i o n w i t h the w h i t e s . T h e y t e n d to w i t n d r a w , and the
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t e s t ha s b e c o m e a c o n s i d e r a b l e i n s t r u m e n t of d i s c r i m i n a t i o n
in t h i s da y and age of a s s i g n m e n t o f c h i l d r e n .
Q Does the C o l e m a n R e p o r t an d the R a c i a l I s o l a t i o n
R e p o r t s h o w the t e s t i n g e x p e r i e n c e w i t h N e g r o e s w h o h a v e b e e n
p l a c e d in an i n t e g r a t e d a t m o s p h e r e ?
A Yes.
Q Does it a l s o s h o w t e s t i n g e x p e r i e n c e s w i t h w h i t e s
w h o h a v e b e e n p l a c e d in an i n t e g r a t e d a t m o s p h e r e
A Y e s .
Q — w h o b e g a n f r o m a p o s i t i o n o f h i g h e r g r a d e l e vel
a c h i e v e m e n t ?
A Right.
Q A n d w h a t d o e s it s h o w as t o t h o s e t w o r o u t e s ?
A It s h o w e s that the N e g r o y o u n g s t e r s w h o h a v e b e e n —
w h o h a v e done b e s t w e r e t h o s e w h o h a v e b e e n in an i n t e g r a t e d
s i t u a t i o n and it shows th e w h i t e k i d s h a v e n o t f a l l e n b e h i n d
b e c a u s e o f the i n t e r r a c i a l e x p e r i e n c e .
Q H a v e s o m e s t u d i e s s h o w n in i s o l a t e d i n s t a n c e s that
some N e g r o c h i l d r e n h a v e s u f f e r e d , p e r h a p s , s o m e t r a u m a f r o m
the i n t r o d u c t i o n to a d e s e g r e g a t e d s y s t e m ?
A I k n o w of n o s u c h data.
Q W o u l d y o u say that it is t h e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y of an
e d u c a t i o n a l s y s t e m t o e d u c a t e all of t h e p u p i l s in the s y s t e m
in an e q u a l f a s h i o n ?
A W e l l , t h e r e are i n d i v i d u a l d i f f e r e n c e s a m o n g c h i l o r -
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but t h e s e are not r a c i a l d i f f e r e n c e s . T h e y s h o u l d e d u c a t e
t h e m al l in p r o p o r t i o n t o -- it s h o u l d do its b e s t to get out
of e v e r y c h i l d the m a x i m u m p o t e n t i a l he has, an d t h i s is an
o b l i g a t i o n to all cni l d r e n .
Q F r o m y o u r o b s e r v a t i o n s and y o u r c o n s u l t i n g s e r v i c e s
and y o u r k n o w l e d g e of e d u c a t i o n , w o u l d y o u say t h a t it p o s s i b l e
t o h a v e ail e q u a l e d u c a t i o n a l s y s t e m u n d e r e i t h e r de jure or
de f a c t o s e g r e g a t i o n w i t h o u t e x p e n s i v e c o m p e n s a t o r y educationafl
d e v i c e s ?
A I t h i n k i t ’s i m p o s s i b l e u n d e r e i t h e r c i r c u m s t a n c e ,
w i t h o r w i t h o u t c o m p e n s a t o r y e d u c a t i o n .
Q N o w , y o u s p o k e b e f o r e of the s e l f - c o n c e p t o f the
N e g r o child. Is t h a t s e l f - c o n c e p t a f f e c t e d by h i s p r e s e n c e in
an a l l - N e g r o o r o v e r w h e l m i n g l y N e g r o s c h o o l ?
A Yes.
Q In w h a t w a y s ?
A Th e s e n s e of r e j e c t i o n , the s e n s e of b e i n g set a p a r t
c r e a t e s l o w e r e d a s p i r a t i o n s , l o w e r e d s e n s e of w o r t h , an d
r e f l e c t s i t s e l f in hi s w h o l e a p p r o a c h , h i s w h o l e m o t i v a t i o n to
a c h i e v e , i d e n t i f y w i t h main-stream! A m e r i c a , a n d to a s p i r e to
the a w a r d s and goals of th e society.
Q Dr. D o d s o n , let's a s s u m e f o r t h e m o m e n t t h a t the
N e g r o s t u d e n t s in the o v e r w h e l m i n g l y o r a l l - N e g r o s c h o o l are
c o n f r o n t e d w i t h a s i t u a t i o n o f an i n t e g r a t e d f a c u l t y w h e r e
t h e r e is one o r t w o or a t o t a l l y i n t e g r a t e d faculty. W o u l d
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that change the factor’s or problems you have elaborated about?
A Other things equal, it will make a contribution, I
think, to improving tne sense of value, and so on, but I'd nave
to be careful about the other things being equal.
Q Well, would you elaborate? Wnat do you mean by
"other things being equal1'?
A If a white teacher is assigned there simply because
_ and it's thought of as the Siberia of the scnool system,
or is assigned there because sire has no other choice, her
performance could be worse than if you didn t have a white
teacher there. But Negro children need white teachers as role
models, just the same as they need Negro teachers, and vice
versa, but in part, it depends on how they got there and why
they are there. It would have to be seen in that context.
Q Do you have an opinion, based on your experience,
as to whether there can be effective or meaningful integratior
without effective or meaningful student body integration?
A No sir, I don't think there can be.
Q You don't think —
A Faculty integration without scnool integration.
Q Why is that?
A Because when you rely on tne neighbornood schools,
no two are exactly equal. One has higher status than the other
and the children perform in these schools about in the same
proportion as the community has expectations for them.
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Q Is that substantiated by test data?
A You might as well ask a mail in the street to rate
the schools as to their status and to look at academic achieve
ment of the children, so nearly does the performance of childre
measure up to the expectations of tue community. Consequently,
if you expect a lot out of one school, teachers feel they are
fortunate if they ar'e assigned there. Others feel they are
less fortunate when they are assigned to other places and
expect less out of tne children in those places because the
community expects less out of them. Consequently, the assign
ment of teacners, without erasing this stigma of the difference
of the schools by making them community schools, does not
correct the problem of leading children imaginatively in an
educational experience.
Q Would you say that Hr. Stimuert's testimony concernir
the experience of the Indianapolis Scnool bystem with regard
to faculty integration is reflective of the problem you have
just mentioned?
A Exactly. The Hunter Collage trained a hundred teaches
in New York City specifically to work in the low income areas,
and forty of them resigned their assignments when they found
out that was where they were going. The teacher does not feel
she is well treated if she is assigned to those places as the
others.
Q Are there places wnere this hasn't been so, where yc<
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have not had the resignation experience and you have not had
teacher disapproval where they have been truly integrated and
meaningfully integrated schools?
A Yes.
Q And where are those places?
A White Plains School System closed their Negro schools
sent the children by bus passed the — from the public housing
project passed the desegregated schools around the edges of
tiie Negro community and out into all-white $40,000.00 a year
residences, anddesegregated the whole school system in pro
portions from ten to thirty per cent, so that no school our
school and the others were their schools, these proprietary
distinctions, with the result that you don't have this problem,
Q Doctor, assume for the moment that one portion of
the community schools are located in an upper economic grouping
of residences where the average median income is significantly
higher than the rest of the city, and those pupils have sub
stantially no integration, either all-white schools, or
virtually all-white schools and other portions of the community
are integrated. Can there ever be a meaningful integration or
lasting integration in that community?
A Not in my judgment.
q Why not?
A As long as some of these schools are "ours" and some
of the others are "theirs” and then in between some whites are
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looking at some people who are more privileged than they are
and the status is in the schools in which there are no mixtures
then you are going to have the acceleration of the tendency to
escape the mixing and to try to move into the kind of situation
where the people feel tney are more fortunate with tne scnools
that are not desegregated. Consequently, it accelerates the
whole process of separation, recidentally and otherwise.
Q You found this acceleration feature present in other
school systems you have studied or been associated wita?
A Yes.
Q I'ni thinking particularly of New Rochelle. What was
your experience there?
A New Rochelle had an all-Negro school with two neightc
hood schools adjoining it. One was 48 per cent Negro and the
other 42 per cent. They were at this mytnical tipping point
situation. They closed the Negro school and redistributed those
school children by bus throughout the rest of the community.
The Washington School, which was 48 per cent Negro,
declined to about 45 per cent. The Mayflower School, which was
the 42 per cent, is now 44 per cent. It*s increased only two
per cent over eight years of time, and you have had a stable
neighborhood situation. Once you took the load off of tnese
next four neighborhood schools that were in the wake of the
movement population, Negro population movement, and distributee
them to the rest of the city, then there was no problem about
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attending a desegregated school, and you have been able to
keep schools that would have tipped, in my judgment, within
three or four years, you've kept them integrated schools and
stable schools for1 eight or nine years.
Q When you say "tipped", do you mean they would have
become all-Negro?
A That's right.
Q Are you familiar with other systems where that has
also been true?
A I'd say the reverse is Cnester, Pennsylvania, where
I've been working with the State Commission on human Rights,
where they fought for the neighborhood school, tooth amt toe
nail, up to about four year's ago when the Commission required
them to desegregate, and each of the neighborhood schools fei:
in the wake of these patterns. Wow, the Negroes constitute
only twenty par* cent of the entire city's population and publi.
schools are seventy per cent Negro. The neighborhood school
fell by the wayside as an instrument to try to deal with this
problem.
Q Do you know of any studies which have been done whic*
concluded the average grade level of whites placed in an
integrated atmosphere for the first time decline or suffer in
any way?
A I know of no such data. The White Plains elementary
division, desegregated in three years time, brought the
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achievement levels of the Hegro, public housing, lowest income
population of the area up to national norms in reading and
did it without any penalty, their data showed, to the wnite kids
Q Did that data show it was without penalty, also,
compared to children studying in all-white situations?
A They had no all-white situation. Tney were comparing
them to the national norms and tue previous performance of the
children, but they had no all-white population to compare.
Q Does it make a difference whether the individual
class or the whole school is in an integrated atmosphere?
A I ’m not sure I understand the import of your questicr
Q Is there a concept which comes out of the Racial
Isolation Report that the school's racial and economic com
position has some determining factor to the performance of
the students in that school?
A That's what I was referring to about the community's
expectations of the schools and their performance.
Q And what do those tests show as to the schools which
have primarily a middle-class orientation?
A That children assigned to them from lower income
groups, where they nave the role models ahead of them, who
are academically facile, tend to achieve better and catch on
to the climate of the school and its operation rather than
remain in the present pattern.
Q Dr. Dodson, is there any reason to believe that,
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given a truly integrated system with a significant balance
between the races, that Negroes and whites will not acnieve
within the same rages of achievement?
A There may be -- there will be some differences as
long as the socio-economic factors exist and until we find
ways of educating differently, I think, but there's no reason
why there should not be substantial progress made to bring
the Negro kids to the level of the white children in such
patterns.
Q And in your White Plains experience, did you find
that the Negro students did basically acnieve within the same
ranges of grade level achievement as did the whites?
A Well, not quite because they started so far behind
out they are up to national norms. Many of the kids — the
white children in the White Plains School would be above norms
in reading or math, considerably above norms. But the Negro
children caught in the encounter with them, or the other way
around, they closed the gap. These were children who were
traditionally behind norms in reading and so on, and they
closed the gap in three years time.
Q Given a city where the living patterns in neighborho
exist on racially isolated or segregated bases and where schoo
construction policies are designed to perpetuate segregation
in the schools and are built on strictly a neighborhood basis,
can a plan -- is it ever possible to devise a plan which
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utilizes the neighborhood school system vhiich v/ill ever
achieve any more than token desegregation?
A Well, I think if you are planning for a school
system that is segregated — that is, a neighborhood school
arrangement it is next to impossible then to plan at the
same time for a desegregated school system unless you're going
to use extraordinary measures of dealing with it.
Q You have been involved in school systems where
alternatives to the strict application of the neighborhood
school systems have been involved in attempts to desegregate?
A Yes.
Q What are some of the devises and the methods used?
A The Englewood School System closed their sixth —
closed their all-Negro school, and created in its place a
community-wide sixth grade school in the place of this , and
then took the space that was available in the other buildings
to take care of the Negro children who were displaced. Three
years later, another school was becoming imbalanced. They
closed it, made a community-wide fifth grade school. Greenberg
8 in Westchester started with one elementary school serving
the whole community. When it got large — and it's 30 or 35
Negro -- when they got large enough, they needed two elementar
schools. Instead of making one of them serve the Negro coauauni
and soon tipping, and then having the other one all-white,
sent the first three grades to one of the buildings and the
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next three grades to the next , and then on the third scnool,
they followed the same principal, so the first two years
children go to school all children of the community will
go to school together in the same building. They move three
times through their school experience.
The two years, they will walk to school in their
neighborhood, and the other two, they go by bus. These are two
tilings that come to my mind. I mentioned Wnite Plains in which
they sent them by bus in a kind of operation leap-frog beyond
the desegregated schools to the outlying schools that were
all-white; and in this sense, the neighborhood schools in the
white communities, I suppose, are still neighborhood, out they
are community schools now because they are reflective of the
total population of the community. Each school reflects betwee;
ten and thirty per cent Negro in a community that’s about 2 3
or 2*4 per cent Negro child population.
Q To your knowledge, has pairing been used as a device'
A Yes. The Greenberg thing might be thought of as
pairing. This is sometimes called the Princton Plan. It was
used with eight schools in New York City in an attempt of
dealing with the problem of imbalance. It's usedquite widely.
Q Is the educational park concept also used?
A The park concept has many meanings, and I think you
have to understand what you're talking about. As Max Wolfe
originally thought of it, it would be a large educational
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b / o
complex integrating a section of a city that had lost its
identity because of the way in which the city has grown.
As Neal Sullivan has used it in Berkeley, I would
assume he means using the buildings that he’s got as community-
wide schools rather than as neighborhood schools, and in tnis
sense, it would be a different concept of park, I would guess.
But the notion is of drawing larger numbers of
children from wider areas. The Orange, New Jersey, planned a
complex that they'd begin building on gradually to go from
pre-school all the way through junior college, all on one
center in the middle of town so as to focus the attention of
the people on the town as a community rather than little
neighborhood sorts of situations. I don’t know how far they
have come on that but they committed themselves to it several
years back.
Q You spoke of busing. Do you know of instances where
there are large-scale busing efforts?
A Well, in proportion to the size of the communities,
yes. This would vary. Busing is a common practice in education
in America. California spends $90 million dollars a year to
bus 300,000 kids of provincial rural isolated kinds of environs
into a wider world of reality.
Q To your knowledge, do you know of Federal funds
available for the busing of students?
A I believe there have been Federal funds made
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a v a i l a b l e w h e r e t h e r e w a s n o n o t i o n of e x p e r i m e n t a t i o n involvei
in it. I d o n ' t k n o w that t h e y h a v e m a d e funds a v a i l a b l e s i m p l y
to p r o v i d e b u s i n g fo r d e s e g r e g a t i o n p u r p o s e s b u t i t ' s n o t h a r d
to d e v e l o p k i n d s o f p r o g r a m s . F o r i n s t a n c e , one t h i n g t h a t
C h e s t e r is p l a y i n g w i t h is w h a t t h e y c a l l m a g n e t s c h o o l s . That
is a s c h o o l t h a t w o u l d be d e s i g n e d f o r e n o u g h of a s p e c i a l
p u r p o s e t o a t t r a c t c h i l d r e n f r o m all o v e r t o w n o r i r o m all
o v e r an area, and t h e y w o u l d p u t , f o r i n s t a n c e , m a t h e m a t i c s
a n d s c i e n c e in one j u n i o r h i g h s c h o o l a n d the o t h e r s u b j e c t s
i n t h e oth e r , an d t h e y ' d e x p e c t t h a t this -- t h e y ' d bu s c n i l d r
w i t h F e d e r a l funds in an e x p e r i m e n t of t h i s s o r t t o a c h i e v e
des e g r e gati o n .
Q In o t h e r w o r d s , a l t h o u g h the m o n e y m a y n o t be
a v a i l a b l e , p e r se, f o r d e s e g r e g a t i o n t e c h n i q u e s , it m a y be
a v a i l a b l e , is that right?
A I b e l i e v e w h e r e it w o u l d r e q u i r e t h i s as a p a r t of
the p r o g r a m .
Q Do y o u k n o w of any s t u d i e s w h i c h h a v e s h o w n o r
d i s c u s s e d the a t t e n d a n c e of c h i l d r e n w h o r i d e b u s e s to s c h o o l ?
A I d i d a s t u d y of t h e o p e n e n r o l l m e n t p r o g r a m in
N e w Y o r k C i t y w h e r e t h e y b u s e d c h i l d r e n f r o m o v e r c r o w d e d
i n t e r c i t y m i n o r i t y s c h o o l s to o u t l y i n g n e i g h b o r n o o d s c h o o l s
w h e r e t h e y h a d space. I s t u d i e d s i x of th e s e , a n d t h e d a t a
s h o w e d c o n c l u s i v e l y t h a t the c n i l d r e n b u s e d h a d b e t t e r
a t t e n d a n c e r e c o r d s t h a n the o t h e r s .
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Q How about the safety of children in the school buses?
A I'm not positive, but I think the data showed cnildre
are safer in buses than on tne street. I believe this is the
data.
Q Have you had an opportunity prior to your testifying
here to study what has become known in this community as the
so-called Parsons Plan?
A Well, I listened to the testimony yesterday afternoon
and I read the testimony from yesterday morning, and I had a
chance to look at it very cursorily.
Q Directing your attention to the high school aspect
of that plan, can you give us an evaluation as to your impres
sions of the high school desegregation aspect of that plan?
A Well, it seems to me that if you had been interestec
in desegregation, you would have zoned horizontally
would have zoned east and west rather than north and south,
and that it would have made a considerable difference in the
nature of the population of it.
Q In your experience —
A And without any greater amount of inconvenience
apparently than what is there, from what I see of it and know
of it.
Q In your experience as an educator, would the creative
or inovative use of changing attendance zones have any validxt;
if it does achieve racial balance or signigicant desegregation
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679
A Well, this is one of the ways of achieving it, and
in the New York State Study, I could point to all sorts of
school reorganization, all sorts of changing boundaries, and
so on, practically any of them work and they are proud of
them if the community wants to make them work, and none of the
successful if the community doesn’t want to make them work.
This is much more the criteria on it. There is no
magic in any of it. I can show you kindergarten, sixth grade,
three year junior high, three year high school, four year earl
school, four year middle year, four year high school, two-two-
two elementary grades, three-three, one community-wide school
for a grade. You name it, practically, and I can show you
someplace they are using it and are quite proud of it and it's
working beautifully. The plans need to fit. The plans need to
fit the unique needs of the community, but there is no magic
to any of these. They are instruments to be used in the
community if the community is disposed to use them.
Q In connection with the Parsons Plan, Dr. Dodson,
I draw your attention to the Beta Complex reflected on page --
THE COURT: Let's take a recess until about eleven
o' clock.
(A short recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right.
Q
BY HR. KAPLAN:
Dr. Dodson, I have placed before you the Beta
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Complex as reflected in the Parsons Report, and tne Parsons
Report indicates they will nave racially homogeneous student
makeup.
THE COURT: Excuse me, what exhibit is that?
HR. KAPLAN; Defendant's Exhibit No. 10, Your honor.
THE COURT: Let me see it and give me the page numbe c
MR. KAPLAN: Thirty-four, Your Honor.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Now, I direct your attention to the map, Defendant's
Exhibit 22, which reflects the same schools, Franklin, Oakhurst
Lee, Stephens and Garland, and according to the projections by
the staff of the Little Rock School District, those schools
will have for the 1069-70 — Lee will have seventy Negro and
219 whites —
THE COURT: That’s tne — that's for the present?
HR. KAPLAN: No, that's the projection for next
year, Your Honor, under this proposal.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
q Franklin would have 61 Negroes and 526 whites; Oak-
hurst will have 21 Negroes and 330 whites; Stephens, 313 Negro;
and 3*4 whites, and Garland will have 62 Negroes and 260 whites.
Could you give an evaluation of the differences of
those two plans involving those five schools?
A X’m not -- the Beta Complex as against --
q The Beta Complex on tnose five schools on a strictly
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geographical zone basis.
A I would say the Beta Complex notion would be a
rather imaginative approach to dealing with the problem as I
understand it. Obviously, I hadn't studied it. I'd say the
other is a traditional pattern in which it will be very
difficult to produce -- difficult to provide equality of
educational opportunity in thi3 circumstance.
Q What is the consequence, Dr. Dodson, of retaining
in those schools involved in the Beta Complex, according to
the present proposed plan, the existing racial identity of
those schools?
A The racial identity of them gives some of them
superior status to the others , lowers expectations in some
as compared to others, makes it more difficult forteachers
to have the same expectancies of achievement in one as the
others, and as a result of it, the thing creates a situation
in which you have inequality of educational opportunity. I
don't think you can provide it in that circumstance.
Q Is it ever possible to have an integrated system
where the old identifiable racial characteristics of a school,
either the student body or the faculty or the name are not
changed?
A Well, as long as it is identified as their school,
and the scnools over here are identified as ours, you destroy
the conception of the common school in its traditional meaning
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0 82
of providing a common encounter and, of courae, being a
community school, with the result that you have these dispariti
that are created by them. And I think that how far you have to
go with that, whether you iiave to change the name of the school
and so on, I don't know, but I think this is the biggest part
of it. The identity has to be that it is a common school, a
community school, that is a part of the totality of the communi
and it's not their school as against ours. It's not thought of
as separate and apart.
Q Dr. Dodson, there was some testimony yesterday con
cerning parental participation, especially in extra curricular
activity in school functions. Do you have an opinion as to the
desirability of that kind of activity?
A Parental participation is wonderful and needful. You
need the support of the community in schools. There are kinds
of problems related to it that you have to take into account.
I testified in the Delaware Case that went into tne
Brown decision, and it was quite clear that the white community
was making the case that inequality did not come out ox public
money, that the parents paid this themselves in the white
school, but the ilegro school didn’t have these facilities. I
maintain that because the segregation principle destroyed the
community, the people weren't working for community schools;
they were working for our school, kind of a tribal arrangement
of education, and tnat you increased inequality of educational
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opportunity because the system came to rely on these services
provided in the communities that can afford it.
This has been one of the biggest problems in parent
associations for a long time. The parents association in New
York City kicked the teachers out because they were hatchet
people for the administration, because the administration
manipulated the parents to do these extra services for them.
That's the curtain for the auditorium or the new movie
projector. One principal even got them to provide a congoleum
rug for his office and the wax to wax it with.
The more you rely on these kinds of services in a
community that can afford it, the more you increase the in
equality of education in the community where people do not hav
this capacity for participation or where educators are not
willing to meet parents in open and free encounter, and push
them out and don't allow them to participate.
Q Have you found in your experience in school district
where you have been associated in desegregation processes that
parental participation is lost once the community school
concept is re-established?
A No. Ho, I have seen many wonderful instances where
once you were sharing and your children were sharing with the
other children, that people who had tne advantages came in
para-professionals or tutors or helped to do jobs that were
really significant in the scnools.
. 6 83
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In tiie New Rochelle situation, tney have even moved
to have the parent participation in homes instead of in the
schools and have even increased participation all across tne
community both in Negro and white, because they moved away fron
this principle.
Q A moment ago you spoke of tribalism in connection
with the school in the individual neighborhood. Could you
develop your meaning, or what do you mean, by that concept?
A If a neighborhood school becomes a turf on which
you hide from encounter or shield yourself from encroachments
from other groups, then you become preoccupied with the lore
and the culture or the values of that group to 1 e exclusion
of all others; and consequently, you pressure the school to
make differences that are in line with these advantages or
lack of advantages that you have to the point that it becomes
education for special groups rather than education that tran
scends the groups and brings us to a common set of values and
common discipline that a common education is designed to
provide.
Q Can there ever be a true sense of community in the
broad sense of our overall community as long as these trioalisi
features are allowed to maintain their superiority?
A I would submit you cannot teach community in the
average neighborhood school concept because the living arrange -
the educators. People learn what they livements out-educates
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arid not what they are taught. I cite Mt. Vernon on tins . at.
Vernon is 78,000 population in four square miles. The New Haven
Railroad cuts the city half in two. Below tiie tracks, it's 75
per cent Negro enrollment. Above the tracks, it's 36 per cent
white. So important is the privilege that is unshared by those
who live on the north side, if they're zoned in the right
elementary schools, that when they list real estate for sale,
they list the name of the elementary school along? -■ the
name of the town and before the address of the property. I
would submit that you can't live in that kind of unshared
privilege in a community without it being morally corrupting
b 85
and without out-educating tiie educator in what he tries to do
in citizenship.
Q Are you aware of techniques that have been employed
by educational systems which have resorted to use of the
machine where it boggles the mind?
THE COURT: I didn't hear that.
BY HR. KAPLAN:
Q Are you aware of school systems which have resorted
to the use of machinery to help devise desegregation plans?
A Yes, Harvard nas been using the computer to help
provide the weights that are assigned to each factor in de
segregation. I think at Lvanston, they put this in a computer
and ran' it out so that tney were mathematically clear on how
you could do the maximum desegregation with tne minimum res is
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minimum amount of dislocation.
Q In your evaluation of this present plan, as reflectei
on Defendant's Exhibit No. 22, Is this a non-racial system?
A It looks to me as if it's a racist school system.
Q With this kind of a school system, where residence
patterns are largely segregated in the city and the neighborhos
school concept is employed, , is it possible in t n "'ear future
to break out of the segregated patterns of either the residences
or the school?
A In my judgment, if this plan is followed, very rapidl
you will freeze in residential segregation to the point that
the west end of town will be white and the east end of town
will be Negro; and the next step on it, if it follows, the
history of New York, will be that the blacks in their frus
tration at the inability to get the whites to share community,
will then demand the separation into local control and that
they will want to take over the school system for themselves
and press for apartheid education. This would be my judgment.
Q There is a difference between local control and
decentralization?
A Yes.
Q W h a t is the difference?
A Local control, as vised in the present context —
decentralization means every effort to try to move the decisic;
the problem exists and to decentralizemaking closer to where
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the o p e r a t i o n . But tends to lea v e the c e n t r a l a d m i n i s t r a t i o n
w i t h the r e s p o n s i b i l i t y of the e n t i r e c o m m u n i t y .
L o c a l contr o l , as it is d e s i g n e d , w o u l d be to c a rve
ou t a u t o n o m o u s d i s t r i c t s a n d t u r n t h e m o v e r c o m p l e t e l y to
l o c a l c o m m u n i t i e s , and leave t h e city w i t h t h i r t y to s i x t y
a u t o n o m o u s d i s t r i c t s , w i t h o u t a s y s t e m t h a t s e r v e s t h e c o m m u
n i t y w i t h a system.
Q Is d e c e n t r a l i z a t i o n f u l l y c o m p a t i b l e w i t h a t o t a l l y
d e s e g r e g a t e d s y stem?
A Yes.
Q Is local c o n t r o l a r e t u r n to t h a t k i n d of t r i u a l i s t i
a t m o s p h e r e y o u d e s c r i b e d b e f o r e ?
A Loc a l c o n t r o l , in my j u d g m e n t , is t h e m o d e r n v e r s i o n
of P l e s s y versus F e r g u s o n , s e p a r a t e bu t equal.
THE COURT: Hay I s u g g e s t w e are g o i n g a l i t t l e far
e
afield.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q G i v e n g o o d f a i t h on the p a r t o f th e s c h o o l b o a r d and
the c o m m u n i t y in an e f f o r t to d e s e g r e g a t e s o m e o f t h e p u b l i c
s c h o o l s , w h a t are some of the b e n e f i t s t h a t b o t n the c o m m u n i t y
a n d the e d u c a t i o n a l p r o c e s s i t s e l f can e x p e c t ?
A In the first p l a c e , it h e l p s to b r i n g b a c k the
c o n c e p t of c o m m u n i t y and the s h a r i n g o f c o m m u n i t y . In the
s e c o n d pl a c e , it b r i n g s the t o t a l c o m m u n i t y t o a r e s p o n s i b i l i t y
f o r the t o t a l i t y of w e l f a r e of its chi l d r e n . A c o m m u n i t y , the
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p o w e r a r r a n g e m e n t of a c o m m u n i t y , can l i v e w i t h its u n s h a r e d
X>ower a n d b u i l d r a t i o n a l i z a t i o n s a b o u t it a n d l e a v e t h o s e w n o
are p o w e r l e s s to s t e w in t h e i r ow n p r o b l e m s w i t h o u t a gre a t
a m o u n t o f c o n s c i e n c e , if t h e y d o n ' t h a v e to s h a r e c o m m o n
f a c i l i t i e s .
C o n s e q u e n t l y , t h e g r e a t e s t c o n t r i b u t i o n is to this
s e n s e of w e l f a r e in t e r m s of th e c o m m u n i t y as a whole. It
e r a s e s the n o t i o n of p r o p r i e t a r y i n t e r e s t o f o n e g r o u p o r
a n o t h e r in t h e c o m m u n i t y i n s t i t u t i o n s a n d m a k e s t h e m c o m m u n i t y
i n s t i t u t i o n s . It g i ves al l the f e e l i n g that it r e l i e v e s
the p o s s i b i l i t y t h a t x>eople are a l i e n a t e d f r o m t h e m a i n s t r e a m
a s p i r a t i o n s of s o c i e t y , t h a t t h e y h a v e a p a r t in it a n d c o n
t r i b u t e t o t h e d i r e c t i o n of t h e i r d e s t i n y i f t h e y are on a
c o m m u n i t y probl e m .
I t h i n k it is i m p o r t a n t in t e r m s of the C o l e m a n
R e p o r t t h a t the s e c h i l d r e n w h o s u c c e e d e d w e r e c h i l d r e n w h o
a l s o felt t h e y h a d s o m e c o n t r o l of t h e i r d e s t i n y , t h a t w h a t
t h e y t h o u g h t , a n d so on, h a d some p o s s i b i l i t y of b e i n g c o n
s i d e r e d in d e c i s i o n - m a k i n g .
Q A r e t h e r e t h e n d i s c e r n i b l e c h a n g e s in the r o l e the
N e g r o sees for h i m s e l f in t h e s c h o o l i t s e l f , alsOi
A Y e s .
Q Is it i n t e g r a t i o n t o put s i x w h i t e s in a c o m m u n i t y
i n t o a h i g h s c h o o l w h e r e t h e r e are a p p r o x i m a t e l y one t h o u s a n d
b l a c k s t u d e n t s ?
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A It’s a little better than Exhibit A, but not much
G 89
more.
Q Would the same be true in an elementary school where
thirty or forty or fifty whites are put into an elementary
school with three hundred Negro students? Is that integration?
A I would not say so. It's better than nothing, but
I would say .it's not.
Q What would your definition of a Negro school be?
A In my consultation with Pennsylvania Human Relations
Commission's desegregation of the schools of that state, which
I forgot to mention that I served as consultant to them, we
developed a guideline which said that no school should be more
than thirty per cent nor less thirty per cent above the per
centage of the minority population of the community. In other
words, if a community were forty per cent Negro, then no scnoc.
would be more than fifty two per cent, which is thirty per cen
of forty, and none would be less than twenty eight per cent.
If you get beyond these — and these were very arbitrary
figures — but if you get something beyond the thirty per cent
range, you begin to lose the concept of the community or
common scnool, and then begin to have imbalanced schools.
Q In this determination, did you make a determination
this balance had to be struck on a day to day basis?
A No. No, you allow flexibility within that kind of
not difficult to keep it unless, ofarrangement and it's
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690
course, the community is undergoing catastrophic changes which
has slowed down or retarted or if the schools are all segregat
Q Now, were you present dur'ing yesterday's testimony,
Dr. Dodson?
A Yes, in the afternoon.
Q And you read the morning's testimony.
A Yes.
Q You heard or* read two superintendents of school
systems state that plans for desegregation are affected by the
community acceptance factor.
Based on your experience as a consultant to various
systems and your work with various systems in a capacity as
a consultant, do you have any devaluation of this reaction of
the professional administrator to community acceptance?
A It is illogical to expect the superintendent on his
own initiative to jeopardize his relationship to his community
by going too far. In the desegregation instances that I know,
with the exception of the Greenberg 8 in New York City, the
impetus for change had to come from the outside. It was not
generated from the inside.
Q What agencies and in what ways was that?
A The Commissioner of Education, the Court, the
rulings, the changes of law, and so on.
q Dr. Dodson, in connection with your formula which
you mentioned pertaining to the Pennsylvania School situation,
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can tnat also be a variable concern which is affected by the
grade levels? In other words, if there is a higher percentage
in a certain -- that is zero to six?
A Yes, it could be in proportion in a grade level. It
would be different for each of the grade levels. That is,
different for elementary education or high school education.
If there were different proportions in the mixes of these
different levels of the school.
MR. KAPLAN: That's all.
THE COURT: Mr. Light.
CROSS EXAMINATION
3Y MR. LIGHT:
Q Dr. Dodson, in what field of academic studies are
your degrees awarded?
A English in McMurry College for the baccalaureates,
sociology at SMU for the Master's, educational sociology at
New York University.
Q You have no degrees in educational administration?
A No, sir.
Q Have you ever operated a public school system?
A No, sir.
Q Has your experience been with public school systems
largely in the capacity of assisting them to bring about a
racial balance in their systems?
A Largely, I would say. I have been involved at many
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other levels but principally my preoccupation has been with
this.
Q Is it a fair summary of what I understand your
testimony to be tnat in your judgment racial balance, per se,
is a desirable educational feature in the public schools?
A Ye3, sir.
Q And you cite the Coleman Report as being in agree
ment with that concept?
A Yes. I cited it as saying that the children in
desegregated schools — that the children who did best in
education came from the desegregated situations.
Q Isn’t it true that the Coleman Report left some
inference originally to the effect that racial balance, per se
was desirable, and that Mr. Coleman later reputiated that
inference and said that he did not intend anything of the sort
A I think that's the reason I was careful to phrase
my statement the way I did. The data on achievement, because
of desegregation, is not that dramatic at the present time, I
think all of us would have to admit, except for the instances
I cite, the White Plains, and a few places like that.
Q Isn't it also true that the Coleman Report stood
solidly for the proposition that compensatory education in
the schools In culturally deprived areas was an essential
solution to this problem?
I don't think so. I think the Coleman Report saivl
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A
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g a 3
if you hold the other factors constant, the amount you spend
doesn't make much difference.
Q It did not support the concept of the compensatory
education?
A Well, it’s implicit in what it said. It didn't refer
specifically there to compensatory education. One of the
startling factors in it was that if the other factors, the
socio-economic status and family and so on, were held constant
that, except for a few tremendously segregated Negro schools
where they had very little equipment or anything, that most
of this made very little difference.
Q Doctor, there are many school districts in the
country that have no Negro residents , is that correct?
A That’s right.
Q I believe there are about 171 of them in Arkansas,
and, of cours, there are many of them in the midwestern portic
of our nation.
Are those white students who attend all-white school
being educationally deprived?
A I think they are.
Q Would you tell me how?
A I think that the Koerner Commission!s report was
correct when it said this was a racist society. I don’t think
we deal with this meaningfully except when people come into
an encounter meaningfully with different races* X tmnk a
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youngster growing up in a white situation where he never
encounters the differences is under handicap.
Q What is your solution?
A Could I add one tiling? I don't want to take a lot
of time,but a lot of datum on it is that the parochial people
told the church people at Buekhill Falls a year ago last
January that in poll-taking they have done, specifically there
was no difference in the responses of church people and non
church people on the matter that they have posed to them, and
you wonder with all the efforts we have made in the kind of
didactic teaching about citizenship, this divorce from the
encounter, why there is no difference. And I think the differs
is that you don't have to learn until you are meaningfully
caught in an encounter where you have to learn differently.
Q What is your solution for the educational deprivatic.
for the children up in Worth Dakota that would have to go
five hundred miles to attend school with Negroes?
A Well, I think you would just have to live with it.
I don't have a solution to it. That's one thing I don't have
a solution to, but I would contend that they are under a handi
cap.
Q You would be for busing them? Is that right?
A I would be for busing them, if you could do it in
such fashion that it did not overweigh other kinds of values,
but, obviously, there are limits beyond which you can go on
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a t h i n g of t h a t kind.
Q T h e n i f I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c t l y , i t ’s y o u r v i ews
t h a t the h e a v y c o n c e n t r a t i o n o f an y ethraic g r o u p in a p u b l i c
s c h o o l is bad, not just the c o n c e n t r a t i o n o f N e g r o e s ?
A T h a t ’s right.
Q In N e w R o c h e l l e , at the t i m e y o u w e r e i n v o l v e d in
t h e i r p r o b l e m s in the e a r l y 1 9 60's, did t h e y h a v e a s c h o o l
that was a b o u t 90 p e r cent I t a l i a n ?
A Yes. I d i d n ' t k n o w it w a s n i n e t y , bu t it w a s v e r y
h e a v i l y Italian.
Q W e l l , th e o p i n i o n of the C o u r t of A p p e a l s in that
c a s e s a i d it w a s o v e r 90 p e r c e n t Ital i a n .
A Y e s .
Q H o w did y o u r e s o l v e t h a t p r o b l e m ?
A We d i d n ' t r e s o l v e it, a n d one o f t h e s a d t h i n g s
t h e r e a n d in Mt. V e r n o n b o th, is t h a t t h e y a l l o w e d t h e s e
s c h o o l s to b e c o m e n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l s f o r e t h n i c e l e m e n t ,
a n a t i o n a l i t y e l e m e n t , a n d s o r t o f p a s s e d o v e r t h e m a n d let
t h e m r u n t h e i r own p r o b l e m s ; a n d t h r e e g e n e r a t i o n s r e m o v e d ,
t h e s e k i d s are s t i l l s i g n i f i c a n t l y b e l o w r e a d i n g noreis f o r
the r e s t o f the c o m m u n i t y in b o t h o f them.
Q D i d t h e y als o , in N e w R o c h e l l e , h a v e a s c h o o l t h a t
w a s s o m e t h i n g in e x c e s s of 90 p e r c e n t J e w i s h ?
A Y e s .
Q A n d s t i l l o p e r a t i n g on t h a t b a s i s ?
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A A p p r o x i m a t e l y , e x c e p t t h e y h a v e s o m e N e g r o c h i l d r e n
t h e r e n o w in the d e s e g r e g a t i o n p r o g r a m .
Q D o c t o r , y o u i n d i c a t e d that as e a r l y as 1953 a n d 5*+,
y o u s e r v e d as a c o n s u l t a n t to the W a s h i n g t o n , D.C. P u b l i c
S c h o o l S y s t e m . I t a k e it t h a t w a s a b o u t t h e t i m e th e B r o w n
d e c i s i o n w a s b e i n g p u b l i s h e d an d t h a t s c h o o l d i s t r i c t w a s
g e t t i n g r e a d y to u n d e r t a k e d e s e g r e g a t i o n p u r s u a n t to that
d e c i s i o n ?
A We m a d e the a n n o u n c e m e n t of th e p l a n t h e M o n d a y
a f t e r the C o u r t ' s d e c i s i o n .
Q D i d y o u s t a y in c o n s u l t a t i o n w i t h t h e d i s t r i c t ■=*.-
t h a t w a s i m p l e m e n t e d an d p u t i n t o e f f e c t ?
A O n l y t h r o u g h t h e r e m a i n d e r of t h a t y e a r o r the
n e x t y e a r , I g u e s s it was.
Q D i d y o u p a r t i c i p a t e in th e p r e p a r a t i o n o f t h e p l a n
t h a t w a s a d o p t e d ?
A Y e s .
Q W o u l d y o u t e l l the C o u r t b r i e f l y a b out h o w s u c c e s s f v
t h a t w a s ?
A At t h a t p o i n t we w e r e — we w e r e o p e r a t i n g on Justic
H a r l a n ' s p h r a s e in his d i s s e n t in P l e s s y v e r s u s F e r g u s o n I
d o n ' t k n o w if I can say it c o r r e c t l y bu t th e -'colorblind
t h e o r y " , t h a t o u r g o v e r n m e n t s h o u l d be c o l o r b l i n d in d e a l i n g
w i t h p e o p l e , and we d r e w a t t e n d a n c e b o u n d a r i e s f o r e a c h schoo]
a n d a s s i g n e d c h i l d r e n w i t h o u t r e g a r d to rac e , c r e e d o r c o l o r
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to th e s c h o o l n e a r e s t to t h e m in p r o p o r t i o n o f the s c h o o l
b u i l d i n g to h o l d them.
Q W h a t d i d y o u do abo u t the t e a c h e r s ?
A We a t t e m p t e d the s a m e k i n d o f a r r a n g e m e n t o f t e a c h e r
Q Did y o u h a v e a m a s s i v e r e a s s i g n m e n t o f t e a c h e r s ?
A Y e s .
Q ’W o u l d y o u t e l l the C o u r t w h a t th e r e s u l t is in terms
of the p r e s e n t p o p u l a t i o n o f the W a s h i n g t o n , D.C. p u b l i c
s c h o o l s ?
A W e l l , 1 * 1 1 t e l l y o u w h a t ha s h a p p e n e d co W a s h i n g t o n .
I w o u l d n ' t a g r e e that it is a r e s u l t o f t h e d e s e g r e g a t i o n of
t h e schoo l s . Th e s c h o o l s y s t e m is n o w , I s u p p o s e , o v e r n i n e t y
p e r cent negro. I t ’s up t h e r e s o m e p l a c e , b u t i t ’s n o t -- it
i s n ’t a great amour*t w o r s e t h a n a c o m p a r a b l e a r e a o f th e inner
c i t y o f m o s t great m e t r o p o l i t a n c o m p l e x e s o f A m e r i c a .
In o t h e r w o r d s , the D i s t r i c t is s o s m a l l a n d t h e
h o u s i n g is so r i g i d l y s e g r e g a t e d o u t s i d e , t h a t the p r e s s u r e
ha s b e e n i n e x o r a b l e f o r N e g r o e s to c o n c e n t r a t e in the n a r r o w
dis t r i c t . I w o u l d not c o n t e n d t h a t s o m e w h i t e s d i d no t leave
the c i t y b e c a u s e o f d e s e g r e g a t i o n , but I w o u l d c o n t e n d that
the m a j o r p o r t i o n of t h a t f o l l o w e d the p a t t e r n o f all the
o t h e r i n n e r c i t y core areas.
Q I t h i n k we k n o w w h a t the p a t t e r n i s . W h a t , in y o u r
j u d g m e n t , is the r e a s o n fo r t h a t p a t t e r n h a v i n g d e v e l o p e d the
last te n o r f i f t e e n y e a r s ?
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A Because the marginal housing, the places that people
can get into, tend to be in the inner city core areas of the
large cities. They are the areas of least choice residenti illy,
tend to be.
Q Has your program that you worked out for New Rochelle
been generally successful in tne desegregation of that district
A Yes. They went through a long era of what I would
call turbulence with the Court decision of Judge Kaplan requir
ing them to drop the neighborhood school concept in the light
of findings he made in the case and to give the children relief
and after a couple of years of bickering, they got a new super
intendent who desegregated the whole system.
Now, they have the next superintendent following hie,
and I feel they are pretty well on their way. The community
stabilized and they are in pretty good shape.
Q The essential finding of facts made by the District
Judge there was that there was a demonstrable plan over many
years to gerrymandering the Negro students into the school,
isn't that right?
A Yes.
Q Do you know enough about the geographic makeup of
the Little Rock School District to express an opinion as to
whether there is intentional gerrymandering on Defendant's
Exhibit 22?
A No, sir, I could not express an opinion on that. As
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far as attendance lines, I think it’s next to impossible witho
a close study of them. If I looked at where you build scnools,
and so on, I might raise many questions.
Q What is it you have done for the community of Mt.
Vernon, New York?
A I did a — -I studied and recommended a plan for the
desegregation of the schools. They rejected it. They have agai
gone through the era of turbulence the past three or four years
and the Commissioner of education has now ordered them to put
this plan into operation, the essential features.
Q And you are presently a consultant in the Hew York
City Public School System?
A Mot at the present time. I was at the time of the
boycotts in 19^, the time of the crisis in that.
Q With respect to this program involving, I believe
you said, eight schools in the New York City System --
A Yes.
Q — This was a system of busing the Negroes to the
predominately white schools?
A The eight schools I referred to were pairings, or
the Princeton Plan arrangement, and these were — two of these
neighborhood schools paired with each other somewhat in the
plan of your Beta idea here, I suppose. The six schools I
referred to in the busing were what they referred to as open
enrollment where they allowed the children in the inner city,
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overcrowded schools to go by bus at public expense to outlying
schools where they had space.
Q That latter program was the one I had reference to.
A Yes.
Q Isn't it true that only six per cent of the hegro
students, approximately, given this choice or opportunity in
the open enrollment program, chose to be bused to the other
areas?
A I don't recall the exact percentage, but I would not
be surprised that it would be six per cent. It was a relative!
small per cent.
*'■' Q I believe, if my notes are correct, that you testifi
in substance that many different devices could be incorporatec
into a desegregation plan but that none of them would work if
the community didn't want to make them work, is that right?
̂ A This is the conclusion you draw from the data I
have worked on and the experience I have had.
Q Would it be fair to say, in that same line of tnougr
that the schools by themselves are not equipped to overcome
this social problem that arises from the co-existence of two
races in this country?
A The school cannot solve all the problems, but the
school can be removed as a source of the sorts of problems
that we are dealing with by public policy.
Is education the first business of the schools?Q
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A If you take it in its broader context, it is, yes.
Q Doctor, you referred several times to this Beta
Complex in what came to be known as the Parsons Report. Would
it cost some money to implement that project?
A It would cost more.
Q Would the adoption of tne Beta Complex by itself
solve the problem in the Little Rock School District that you
have testified to this morning?
A Ho, it would be one significant item in it, but it
would not solve the whole problem, goodness no.
Q Adopting that particular inovation by itself without
doing some other things would actually probably create some
problems, wouldn’t it?
A Well, it would be a calculated risk in the broad
deal, if that’s all you did. I think it would be a calculated
risk. Whether it would stabilize that whole area that apparent
is in transition at the present time by having enough involve
ment, enough reflection of total community that the people
would then see it as a community, or whether it would accelera
the segregated process by — as long as you've got this vast
out here that1 s all-white and so on, whether it would
accelerate people trying to escape because there is the escape
hatch out there always to move out into the other section, and
whites here looking over their shoulder at the other whites
who don't have to be involved in it with you, and saying they
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are picking on us.
Q Really, what you’re saying, if X understand you, is
that in order to stem the flight of whites from a desegregated
or integrated situation in the public schools, you are going
to have to cut off the avenue of flight, is that right?
A You're going to have to bring the whole community
to share in the mix of population, in my judgment.
Q Well, when you do that, assume that we do that, what
is going to stem the flight of whites to another community, to
an adjacent community?
A Well, there’s no guarantee that they won’t, but the
experience has been that, as X stated in New Rochelle and so
on, that you could hold integrated schools — that is desegre
gated schools — up to 45 per cent over eight or ten years if
the whole community is involved in it, if the whole community
is sharing in the comparable things. In White Plains, the same
thing. The area around the Rochambeau School, when we closed
it. which was the Negro school in White Plains, every house
that sold was going to Negroes. Once they closed that school
and distributed these children around the community, that
neighborhood stabilized itself, and now a house sells to a
white and now to a Negro and so on. I cite this only to say
there is no guarantee they are not going to run someplace, but
ultimately, there is no hiding place out there and, consequent
have to stand some time.you
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Q Doctor, we have 171 all-white school districts in
this state. Don’t they provide a hiding place?
A But it's not a hiding place for citizens who work
and live in Little Rock.
Q Do I correctly recall that in connection with all
the desegregation plans that you have mentioned that you had
a part in formulating, that they involved either the closing
of a Negro school or providing transportation for the students,
or both?
A Not quite, but almost.
Q And would you agree to the obvious, that both of
those devices are rather expensive?
A There is some expense involved.
Q You indicated that upon casual examination, you
think that if high school zones on Defendant's Exhibit 22 had
been drawn east to west, that it would have accomplished more
racial mixing than the way they are drawn as they appear on
the map, is this correct?
A That’s correct.
Q Do you know how far the students in the eastern end
of the District would be from the high school to which they
would be assigned under that sort of zoning?
A It would depend in part, of course, on where they
are assigned. If you took all the children from the fartherest
distance and sent them as far as you could send them. It woulc
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different in an arrangement that you could work some of this
out on a different basis. I don’t know to what extent it could
be worked out but, assuming what you’re saying, I don’t know
how far it would be. It would be several miles.
Q Have you studied the Parsons Report and the Exhibits
to it which reflect that the Negro students living in the
eastern section of the District that would be assigned to Hall
High School under an east-west zoning plan would be six, seven
or eight miles to go to get to Hall High School?
A I have noted that figure being passed aroum..
Q Doctor, are you familiar with Dr. James Bryant Conan
A Yes.
Q Is he a recognized authority in the field of school
administration in the United States?
A Well, he never administered a school either.
Q He is president of Harvard University?
A He’s one of the considerable experts of the country,
yes sir.
Q Are you familiar with his publication ’’Slums and
Suburbs” published in 1961?
A Yes.
Q Let me ask you if you agree with this observation.
These are pages 3 8 through »fl of that document of Dr. Conant.
"In some cities, political leaders have attempted
to put pressure on the school authorities to have Negro
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children — "
MR. WALKER: Excuse me, Your Honor, I hate to
interrupt Mr. Light, but several times during this hearing,
Mr. Light has pronounced the term Negro "Nigger” , and I would
ask the Court to admonish him to —
THE COURT: I suspect that's part of his natural
accent and you are perhaps looking unduly for offense, and he
meant no offense.
Am I correct, Mr. Light?
MR. LIGHT: Certainly, no offense was meant, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: I have trouble with my accent also.
All right, proceed.
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q "In some cities, political leaders have attempted
to put pressure on the school authorities to have Negro
children attend essentially white schools. In my judgment,
the cities in which authorities have yielded to this pressure
are on the wrong track. Those which have not done sc, like
Chicago, are more likely to make progress in improving Negro
education. It is my belief that satisfactory education can
be provided in an all-Negro school through the expenditure of
more money for needed staff and facilities.
A I am familiar with the passage. I reviewed the book.
I disagreed with it then. I disagree with it now. I would
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submit that Chicago has had the same problems all the rest
have had and a good part of it is burned and there’s been
nothing produced before nor since that would support Conant
in what he said.
Q Would you agree with me that Mr. Hubert Humphrey,
Vice President of the United States, has achieved some experti
in national standing as a public official vitally interested
in the area of civil rights and education?
A Yes.
Q Let me ask you if you agree with this passage from
Mr. Humphrey’s publication "Integration versus Segregation"
published in 196H.
A All right.
q »To use fixed racial quotas in the assignment of
students as is now being tried in some metropolitan centers
does not appear a sound and workable solution. In assigning
students on the basis of such quotas, the constitutional
pp^jjciple of race is not a legitimate factor for determining
school assignment is actually being violated. The Constituticr
is colorblind. It should no more be violated to attempt
integration than to preserve segregation."
A Yes.
Q Do you find yourself in agreement with that?
A No, sir, and I agree with Judge Kaplan in his New
when he said you don’t have to be that blincRochelle decision
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----------------------------- m ----
I don't feel you can deal with this problem and not be con
scious of the responsibility of the board of education to lead
kids to make meaningful encounter with each other as a citizen
ship dimension of their education.
Q Have you examined the exhibits in this case that
undertake to project what the racial composition of the schools
would be under the plan represented by Defendant's Exhibit 22?
A That's the sheet there with — yes, I think I've seen
that, I haven't studied it particularly.
Q You have examined it sufficiently to know that it
does not strike anything that you would characterize as a
racial balance in the school system, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Would you agree with me, Doctor, that the amount of
racial separation that would result in that projection that
we have just discussed is not dissimilar from the amount of
racial separation that we find in all communities — north,
south, east and west -- in this nation today?
A Not all communities. I would agree that segregation
is pronounced in many communities.
Q I used the term "separation".
A Would you spell out — I'm not sure I understand
what you mean.
Q To make it clear, what I mean is isn't there a
tendency in this country for the Negro people to congregate
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--------------------------------- ---
together where they live and where they go to church and, in
some areas, for the Jewish people and the Italian people to dc
that, and for the white people to do that?
A There is some tendency toward self-segregation, but
with the Negro group, this hasn't been a voluntary situation
to any tiling like the extent that the others have and, con
sequently, it is different — there's been opposition in some
of the others to a certain extent but, largely, we have out
grown that as the Negro is still the vestige of that pattern
that is not voluntary segregation.
Q There are a great number of states in this Union
that either never had school segregation required by law or
if they did, abandoned it fifty years or so ago, are there
not?
A Yes.
Q Do you not find the same separation of races,
essentially, in those schools that you do in states that
formerly had de jure segregation?
A Almost. In the large cities, the large city problems
and again this is not completely voluntary self-segregation.
It is a segregation of many, many sorts, the inability to get
into the suburbs, the lack of economic ability to pay, and
many other factors. United States Commission on Civil Rights,
"Racial isolation in the public schools"?
A Yes.
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Q Y o u h a v e r e a d tha t , h a v e y o u not?
A Yes.
Q Let me a s k y o u i f y o u r e c a l l an d a g r e e w i t h t h i s
f i n d i n g on P a g e 199 of that p u b l i c a t i o n : " R a c i a l i s o l a t i o n
i n p u b l i c s c h o o l s is i n t e n s e t h r o u g h o u t the U n i t e d S t a t e s . In
the n a t i o n ’s m e t r o p o l i t a n a r e a , w h e r e t w o - t h i r d s o f b o t h
N e g r o a n d w h i t e p o p u l a t i o n n o w live, it is m o s t s e v e r e , j e v e n t /
five p e r c e n t o f the N e g r o e l e m e n t a r y s t u d e n t s in tl\3 n a t i o n s
c i t i e s are in s c h o o l s w i t h e n r o l l m e n t s t h a t are n e a r l y all
N e g r o , 90 p e r cent o r m o r e N e g r o , w h i l e 83 p e r cent o f the
w h i t e s t u d e n t s are in n e a r b y a l l - w h i t e s c h o o l s . N e a r l y n i n e
ou t o f e v e r y t e n N e g r o e l e m e n t a r y s t u d e n t s i n t h e c i t i e s a t t e n d
m a j o r i t y N e g r o schools. T h i s h i g h l e v e l o f r a c i a l s e p a r a t i o n
in c i t y s c h o o l s e x i s t s w h e t h e r the c i t y is l a r g e o r s m a l l ,
w h e t h e r the p r o p o r t i o n o f N e g r o e n r o l l m e n t is l a r g e o r sm a l l ,
a n d w h e t h e r t h e city is l o c a t e d n o r t h o r s o u t h . "
Do y o u a g r e e w i t h t h a t ?
A I ' d m a k e some e x c e p t i o n s , b u t g e n e r a l l y that is
correct.
Q D o c t o r , i f a p l a n t h a t y o u d e v i s e d c o u l d s t r i k e a
r a c i a l b a l a n c e in e v e r y s c h o o l in t h e L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l Syste:
w o u l d t h a t o v e r c o m e the e x i s t e n c e o f a n y d i s p a r i t y in t h e
e d u c a t i o n a l o p p o r t u n i t i e s b e t w e e n t h e v a r i o u s s c h o o l s ?
A It w o u l d be the first m a j o r s t e p t o w a r d it. Obvious!;
m i x i n g the b o d i e s , as s o m e s n e e r i n g l y r e f e r to it, does n o t
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V
accomplish miracles, but I do not believe the disparities will
be overcome until that first step is taken.
Q It is just physically impossible to maintain all
schools on an identical basis, isn't that true, if you have
as many as two schools?
A That’s correct.
Q You are always going to have one that's new —
A That’s right.
Q — and one that’s bigger.
A As long as you’ve got the neighborhood schools.
Q And some of them will have staffs that are thought
to be somewhat better than others?
A That’s what I ’m saying, yes.
Q You’re saying as long as you have neighborhood
schools.
A That’s right.
Q That’s as long as you have as many as two schools,
isn’t it, however you assign students to them?
A Well, certainly, pupils under certain circumstances
may have teachers better or worse. You never can shield them
from bad teachers, but the point that I have tried to follow
in this has stemmed from the Delaware case. The Chancelor in
that Court said he had investigated the facilities and they
were manifestly inferior.
Q Are we talking about ancient history here, fifteen
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711
years ago?
A I beg your pardon?
Q Aren't we talking about fifteen years ago?
A I'm talking about the philosophy he enunciated there
that I've sort of stuck to since then in my thinking. He said
he had no patience with judges who ordered them to do somethin
about it and then told them to hang around four or five years
to see if they had done anything about it. He said the only
way you could make unequal facilities equal was to make such
facilities as existed equally acceptable to all. When the
community shares — when all the community shares in the in
equalities as well as the equalities, then everybody has more
nearly the fair and equal chance, and then the inequality- is
not based on race or anything of that sort.
Q I understand you to say that the sort of racial
balance that you advocate the maintenance of in the schools
and that you feel is educationally desirable need not be
struck on a day to day or, I take it, week to week basis?
A Sure.
Q And you say you would allow flexibility in that
regard?
A Yes.
q How frequently would a school administration be
charged with restriking its balance?
Well, if you would take a system, we'll say, thatA
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had thirty per cent Negro children or you could take it the
other way, seventy per cent white — I don't care which, and
say that you would allow a flexibility so that thirty per cent
over and below this percentage would be -- this is arbitrary
but this is what we took in Pennsylvania -- in other words, if
there were thirty per cent Negro children in the school distri
in the elementary division, then you could go as high as thirt
nine per cent Negro in some schools and you might go as low as
twenty-one per cent in other schools, which would be nine per
cent, over and above -- the per cent of the per cent you see,
and this would give flexibility in which you could move.
Q All right, after the start of the school term and
the striking of the original racial balance to start the schoo
term, then the school authorities would only be charged with
daily calculating the racial balance and not charged with
altering the racial balance until they fell below or above the
outer limits of your percentage flexibility, is that correct?
A That would be right, provided the others were not
out of balance in some fashion, yes.
Q Did you hear Dr. Stimbert's testimony yesterday
afternoon?
A Yes.
Q Did you hear him testify that every twenty days, it
is necessary for them to revise the home addresses of 6,000
students, that there is that much mobility within high school
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713
districts?
A That's correct.
Q Do you think with that much mobility that it would
be something to recalculate --
A Not much of it, because a lot of it is circular
mobility of the same ethnic group moving around. The more
mobile population tends to be your more marginal population
in the lower income neighborhoods, so they'd come pretty
nearly canceling each other out for the most part.
Q There are a lot of transitional neighborhoods,
though, aren't there?
A The point at which it would create problems is
inhere the tipping point would be reached and all of a sudden,
a massive withdrawal of whites and a vast influx of Negroes,
and I think this is helped immensely if you distribute this
load, this population, so that these are now community schools
rather than the others. Certainly, the neighborhood school
concept as it is now does not solve it.
MR. LIGHT: Your Honor, could we take the lunch
recess now?
THE COURT: All right, we will adjourn until 1:30.
(Thereupon at 12:00 o'clock the above entitled
proceedings were recessed, to reconvene at 1:30 o'clock, p.m.
the afternoon of the same day.)
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714
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE CGURTs All right, gentlemen®
Thereupon,
1:30 p.sn.
DR. DAN W. DODSON
having previously been called as a witness by counsel for
defendants, and having previously been duly sworn, resinned
th© stand and was examined and testified further as follows:
CROSS EXAMINATION - Resumed
BY m . LIGHT:
*-
G Doctor, has White Plains successfully implemented
your plan for desegregation?
h It was not my plan. White Plains was not, my plan,
but they have successfully implemented a plan.
Q that is causing the high school unrest there that
you were talking about?
A I hop© I know more about it when I'm through with
the study, but the way it looks now, the issue of the black
militants ideology that has come into the community and affect*:
a bunch of the young people.
So far I've found very few who felt they would have
had any trouble had it not been for that.
Q Is that in high school or high schools where the
system is attempting to maintain a reasonable balance?
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715
A T h e r e in o n e h i g h s c h o o l a t t e m p t i n g t o s e r v e t h e
c o m m u n ity o f som e s e v e n t e e n t h o u s a n d p e o p le ®
Q w o u ld i t b e f a i r t o s a y t h e Hew Y o r k C i t y P u b l i c
S c h o o l s y s t e m h a s t r i e d a l l s o r t s o f i n n o v a t i v e d e v i c e s t o
o v e r c o m a t h e p r o b le m o £ r a c i a l b a l a n c e ?
h H o , s i r , t h a t w o u ld n o t b e f a i r t o s a y . T h e y h a v e
d e v i s e d m an y , m any p o l i c i e s a n d m any p r o g r a m s * V e r y fe w o f
th e m h a v e r e a l l y b e e n im p le m e n te d t o a n y —* s u f f i c i e n t l y t o
c o n s i d e r th em r e a l l y t o h a v e b e e n t r i e d *
G I b e l i e v e w e h e a r d a b o u t t h e m o re e f f e c t i v e s c h o o l
p r o g r a m s y e s t e r d a y * T h a t ' s o n e o f th e m , i s i t ?
h Y es® T h i s i s p r o b a b l y a s e x t e n s i v e a t r i a l , a n d
t h i s i s t h e u s e o f c o m p e n s a t o r y e d u c a t i o n *
q And t h e y t r i e d t h e p r o g r a m s y o u m e n t io n e d t h i s m orn
i n g t h a t i n v o l v e d e i g h t s c h o o l s i n o n e p r o g r a m a n d s i x i n
a n o t h e r ?
h W e l l , t h e e i g h t s c h o o l s w a s a p a i r i n g o p e r a t i o n a s
a p a r t o f w h a t t h e y w e r e t r y i n g t o d o w i t h d e s e g r e g a t i o n . Tb
o p e n e n r o l l m e n t i n c l u d e d m any o t h e r s c h o o l s t h a n t h e s e s i x .
X o n l y s t a t e d s i x o u t o f m any o t h e r s .
T B S COURT: D id t h e y i n c l u d e P u b l i c S c h o o l s S i x a n -2
Seven? W hich w e r e p a i r e d ?
A X d o n ' t r e c a l l t h e n u m b e r s o f th e m . O ne w a s i n
B r o o k l y n H e i g h t s w i t h a n a r e a n e a r t h e N a v y Y a r d . O ne w a s —
o n e p a i r w a s u p n e a r t h e T r i b o r o u g h B r i d g e i n Q u e e n s , i n t h a t
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716
neighborhood. Another one was out in Queens, a considerable
distance, in a middle-class neighborhood, and I've forgotten
where the other one was of the pair* There ware four of the
BY MR. LIGHT*
Q Are you familiar with a pairing of a Kegro or pre
dominantly Negro school and a predominantly Jewish school
that was enthusiastically endorsed by the patrons of both
schools?
A If you're referring to a specific one of those fou
that was the Queens middle-class neighborhood area, yes®
Q The description 2 just gave fit the two schools tb.
you observed?
A That's right.,
Q Isn't it right that both of those schools, after
the pairing, converfeod back to where you had two all-Hegro
or predominantly Negro schools?
h Hot the ones that — that would not be correct.
They had a considerable amount of disruption at that pairing,
and some of the parents set up a private little school that
operated for a little while, and then it fizssled out and the
schools have maintained their proportionate relationship to
each other in the one I *m thinking about. I know of none
where they have both gone all Negro.
Q Among the other devices that the Hew York City Pub 1
Schools have undertaken is local control in some instances.
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717
Is that right?
A This is the current controversy*
Q All right* And it lias been undertaken to supply
or replace white principals with Negro principals in all-Negi
schools?
A This is a part of the local control issue.
Q And is it also true that the New York City public
school system has available and does expend considerably mors
in the way of per pupil expenditure than is typical or avers;
throughout the nation's public schools?
A I guess that would b@ correct on a national average
q And as a result of all of these and other programs
that I &© sure wa have not mentioned in that school system,
they have encountered teachers* strikes because of dissatis
faction by the teachers with administrative regulation, isn*
this right?
A No, sir. The initial teachers' strikes grew much
more out of ~~ out of the problem of teacher morale in teact
ing in the segregated neighborhoods, and the attempt to shor
up discipline in some fashion or another.
It drove a wedge between the Negro and the white
teacher groups to a considerable extent.
The later strike grew out of the local control cor
troversy and these are only — there are only three of these
and their experimental units and they are Intermediate Schoc
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201 in Harlem —
Q Let vm interrupt you a moment. Doctor, if I way,
and we may save some time* This is very interesting, but I
think we are getting into raora detail than —
A Sure, but could I just say on® tiling about those,
however, in fairness? These three were the proposal cf the
Ford Foundation to attempt getting the schools back to people
at local control basis but also turning over to the community
completely the control for these schools and the strike grew
out of the controversy over whether, under this local control,
plan, they had the right to fire teachers that they didn't
want in those districts, and this was heavily a racial business
Q Currently and for some time in the past, violence
has been a problem in the Mew York City schools, has it not?
A In scree schools,
Q And some schools have had to have police proteefcior
to handle the situation?
A This is primarily in the controversial schools in
which the fight was going on,
Q They have had occasions recently where the students
were striking or in some instances taking over the school, is
that right?
A Right, and this has grown generally out of this con
troversy, tills strike controversy,
Q Th® Hew York City schools ara in a state of disorder
719
n g s
are they not?
A That is, I think, a good statement.
Q And against all of this background of efforts to
overcome the problems o£ racial imbalance, there is still a
high degree of racial separation within the schools of that
system, isn't there?
A They never seriously undertook to correct racial
imbalance, as 1 was trying to say. They have done a few thi
Eight schools out of five hundred is not a significant undaj
taking. The problem is much more the segregated worlds ~~
there is a higher degree of segregation there now than at fcha
time of the Supreme Court decision.
Q Your reference to the Chester, Pennsylvania situation
that system abandoned its neighborhood schools and went to
effort to achieve racial balance, is that correct?
A Only in the last two or three years under the ordt
o f the Human Eights Commission o f the state.
q And the result is that although Negroes made up alefcst
twenty per cent of the school population of the district, n<
seventy per cent of the pupils in the schools are Negro?
A It wasn't a result of it. It was when they were
relying on the neighborhood school to save them that this
proportion occurred. It was twenty per cent of the population
not the students, twenty per cent of the entire town was Kegfco
and constituted seventy per cent of the population in the
an
io >f
schools.
Q And the white students went where? Into private
schools?
A Private schools, parochial schools, wherever.
Q Any escape route available, is that right?
A I would guess this is approximately correct.
G Axe you familiar. Doctor, with what occurred in
Prince Edward County, Virginia, in that 'school system when
it undertook to achieve racial balance there? Do you know
the public school system is now all—Hegro in that county, an 3
Surrey County, also?
h I'm not familiar with that.
0 Are you familiar with the experience in Taliaferro
County, Georgia where it was undertaken to pair the two schools
in that system to achieve racial balance?
A I am not familiar with that.
q Have you been, mad© aware recently, perhaps on the
occasion of your visit to Arkansas, of what happened to the
GCruld^ Arkansas, school system when it undertook to comply
with the order of this Court to achieve racial balance?
A Ho, I am not aware of it.
q Doctor, can you tell me several school systems witi
which you arc familiar with a proportion of Hegro students as
large as that that exists in the Little Rock school district
that have achieved and maintained a racial balance in a stable
! 721
1
situation over a period of time?
2 h Your proportion is what?
3 Q Something over thirty per cent, I believe»
4 A The Greenberg, for fifteen years, has maintained \P
5 to 33, 34 oar 35 per cent.
6 Q Greenberg, is that a school system, or a single
7 school?
8 h In b system.
9 Q What state?
10 A Greenberg School District 8 in Weschester County
11 that I made reference to this morning that had the three set ool
12 serving the entire elementary mako-up, a very — the White
13 Plains, I guess, runs about twenty-five per cent. That woulc
14 foa stable for four years, since they did something with it.
15 Q That * a where your unrest is, though, isn't it?
16 A Yes, but the unrest is not particularly related to
17 this problem. It's irrelevant, in my judgment, to draw it in.
18 0 Be mindful that my question pertains to a school
19 system with a student body of thirty per cent — a school ay3-
20 fcera xdifch as large a proportion of Hegro students as thirty
21 psr cent.
22 A I ’m just trying to think of some, and these come to
23 my mind first.
24 q You mentioned Greenberg that has something like
25 thirty-five per cent.
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722
Q What others?
ft Well, the othere, I guess, would run slightly Ices
than, that, that 1 think of offhand.
0 Out of thousands and thousands of biracial school
systems in the nation, you can only cite one that has done
tliis thing successfully.
ft I don!t know whether that is a reflection on the
extent of my knowledge or what the situation was. I think
it's the first.
Q You had an opportunity to examine the proposed fac
ulty desegregation plan that the defendants have presented
to the Court in this proceeding?
...
ft Somewhat.
G Would you agree with Dr. Stissberfc that that is an
ambition® and far-reaching proposal?
THE COURTs I don’t understand the question.
HR. LIGHTt I asked if he would agree with Dr. StJb
bert that that is an ambitious and far-reaching proposal.
THE WITNESSs I'd say this. I think if you could
bring it off, it would be better than nothing if this is —
if this is all you could do. Tho reservations I have about
it is how you assign white teachers into schools that are no
Negro, principly this problem, and get the same qualify of
teachers there. The tendency will be that you siphon off tl <
A Yes.
723
best Negro teachers from the Negro school and send them to
the white and the white teachers that go to the Negro school
will bo the superannuates and the novitiates.
Q I saw nothing in the plan that provided for that,
did you?
A I'm talking about what the realism in executing it
is. Obviously, it is not in the plan.
Q There are going to be problems encountered in the
implementing of that, tire there not?
A Yes, and they are compounded considerably by the
fact that the schools to which the teachers are assigned al
ready have a status, poor or good, and teachers accept or
resist because they are not community schools. They are neigh
borhood schools.
y q Doctor, do you know of any other school district
with a proportion of Negro students that exists as high as
this district that has undertaken so massive a reassignment
of teachers program for the purpose of moving toward racial
balance?
A No, six.
Q One of the problems a school administrator has in
undertaking faculty desegregation is that the teachers can
quit, isn't it?
A Y e s .
Q There's not any law that makes them work for any
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724
particular school district?
A That's correct.
Q The teachers who don’t quit, but are unhappy in
their situations, are unlikely to perform well or likely to
perform poorly in their new jobs, are they not?
A That tends to be correct, but 1 ’cl hasten to add
that the reason, for it, their unhappiness, is that they judo
their worth and what the administration thinks their worth
is by fch@ place to which they are assigned,
g But there could bs lota of reasons for their unhap
ness, couldn't there?
A well, sure, hut in this context, this is the reasc-
Q Wifch respect to the neighborhood school concept, i
it fair to say that the vast majority of the public school
systems in the country use it?
A Yes.
Q And have for many years?
h Yes.
Q The parental support that I understand is one of
the a d v a n t a g e s cited in support of this neighborhood school
system is educationally desirable, isn't it?
A I'm sorry, the first part of your question —
Q I say Is it educationally desirable to have parent
support of the neighborhood schools?
A Of any school. Of any school system, not just
• ->
neighborhood schools.
Q This is an important element in education, isn't
it, a cotffinunication between the home and school?
A It is important,
0 An involvement of the parent in school affairs.
A Yes, it's important.
q And moving from the neighborhood school concept to
one whereby students are transported much further away from
their homes to schools unquestionably makes it more difficu!
to obtain or* maintain that support, does it not?
A 1 would not say that it is so in terras o£ the tran
experiences that I have had.
q Let's get down to specifics. Isn't it common prac-
tic© in school districts that you have been familiar with for
the mothers periodically to come down and relieve the teach
during a period when the teacher needs to do something else?
A Ho, sir, she would not be allowed to do it in our
section.
q You are not aware of that?
A She is not a person to have a class intrusted to.
G Have you ever heard of a project called "Rainy Dai
Mother" when the mother goes down and relieves the teacher
during the recess?
A I have heard of parents coming in and assisting ir
many ways, but the principle is the same.
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Q And la it desirable?
A Yes. To have fcha —
Q To have the parents coming in and discharging fches
obligations?
A Yes.
Q Won * t yon agree it is going to bo more difficult
to have those services rendered if it’s seven miles across
town or eight miles, than it would be if it’s two blocks frojn
the host® where the mother lives?
A The schools that I know, there has been involvement
I assume there would be a little problem at this kind of levfsl,
but the schools 1 know of, yon. have had different levels of
involvement that were equally good.
Q 1b it not uncommon for a small child to get sick
at school and have to go home?
h Y e s .
Q And doesn't it make that problem of getting the
child home more difficult if he is seven miles from home in
rather than two blocks?
A To a certain extent.
q Doctor, in your educational part concept or your
concept of having the schools serve a much larger area of th£
city, how do the low incoma families that need to be involved
in the school work get across town and devote the time to do
that? How does that encourage them to do it?
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A W e ll , t h e — I t h a p p e n s i n d i f f e r e n t ways„ S o m a t in
t h e p a r e n t s ’ o r g a n i z a t i o n p r o v i d e s a t r a n s p o r t a t i o n a r r a n g e
m e n t , a n d i t ' s b e e n g o o d f o r t h e p a r e n t s i n t h e a r e a t h a t w a s
s e v e n m i l e s aw ay a s w e l l a a t h e o t h e r s *
S o m e t im e s t h e y h a v e , a s Mew R o c h e l l e m o ved t o h a v i a
t h e m e e t i n g s i n h o m e s an d s m a l l e r g r o u p s , a n d s o o n , a n d h a v e
a c c o m p l i s h e d i t w i t h o u t t h e g r e a t a m o u n t o f m a s s i v e m o vem en t
o f t h i s s o r t .
q L e t me a s k y o u w h e t h e r y o u a g r e e w i t h t h i s s t a t e m e :
b y O r . B r u n o B e d e l h e i a , P r o f e s s o r o f E d u c a t i o n an d P s y c h i a t r /
a t t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f C h i c a g o , t h s s t a t e m e n t h a v i n g b e e n m ade
tw o o r t h r e e w e e k s a g o *
"We h a v e a s k e d o u r s c h o o l s t o s o l v e t h e p r o b le m s
o f s o c i e t y an d t h e y w e r e n o t d e s i g n e d t o d o t h a t . H e a v e n
k n o w s t h e r e a r e p l e n t y o f e v i l s i n s o c i e t y t o b a c o r r e c t e d
b u t t h e s c h o o l i s n o t th® i n s t i t u t i o n t o d o i t w i t h o u t b e i n g
d e s t r o y e d . "
L T h e — I w o u ld s a y f u n d a m e n t a l l y t h i s i s r i g h t . On
t h e o t h e r h a n d , I w o u ld s a y t h a t t h e A m e r ic a n p e o p l e h a v e h a d
g r e a t f a i t h i n t h e s c h o o l t h r o u g h o u t t h e h i s t o r y o f t h e c o shoo
s c h o o l , t h a t i t w o u ld f i l l t h e g a p t h a t w a s c r e a t e d b e tw e e n
t h e s o c i e t y an d t h e g r o w th an d d e v e lo p m e n t n e e d s o f c h i l d r e n
w h a t e v e r t h i s w a s . C l a r k W h i s t l e r a a i d t h a t e d u c a t i o n h a d
b e c o m e o u r r e l i g i o n . W hat we u s e d t o p r a y t h a t God s e n d u s ,
now e d u c a t i o n p r o v i d e s . S o g r e a t w a s h i s f a i t h . T h e dem an d
720
t h a t e d u c a t i o n c l o s e t h i s g a p f o r t h e s e c h i l d r e n an d b r i n y
th e m i n t o f u l l s e a l © p a r t i c i p a t i o n i n t h i s g e n e r a t i o n i s a
s o u r c e o f a g r e a t t e n s i o n , a n d t h i s i s f u n d a m e n t a l l y t h e s c h
j o b , n o t s o c i e t y ' s j o b , a n d t h e f r u s t r a t i o n i s i n n o s m a l l
>olfc
it
m e a s u r e s e e i n g t h e s c h o o l f a i l i n t h i s j o b * a j o b t h a t i t h
p e r f o r m e d s o a d m i r a b l y f o r n a t i o n a l i t y g r o u p s a n d f o r t h e lo w
s o c i o - e c c rto m ic w h i t a s a h e a d o f i t .
q A r e y o u f a m i l i a r w i t h t h e r e p o r t o f t h e E d u c a t i o n a l
P o l i c i e s C o m m is s io n o f t h e n a t i o n a l E d u c a t i o n A s s o c i a t i o n th
D r . S t i m b o r t r e f e r r e d t o y e s t e r d a y ?
A Yes.
Q f e l l m e, D o c t o r , w h e th e r y o u a g r e e w i t h t h e s e s t a t e
m e n t s f ro m t h a t r e p o r t s
" T h e n e ig h b o r h o o d s c h o o l h a s m any a d v a n t a g e s , p a r t i c
u l a r l y i n e a r l y e d u c a t i o n . I t f a c i l i t a t e s th© e f f o r t s o f t h e
t e a c h e r t o know t h e hom e an d c o m m u n ity w h ic h e x p l a i n s s o much
a b o u t e a c h p u p i l . 1*
THE COURT: A little louder, please.
BY H R. L IG H T :
0 "T h e n e ig h b o r h o o d s c h o o l m a k e s i t e a s i e r f o r p a r e n t s
t o i d e n t i f y w i t h an d s u p p o r t t h e i r c h i l d r e n ' s e d u c a t i o n , an d
it is easier to make a community center of the school if it
is truly a neighborhood school. The simple mixing of races
in a school does not solve itself all the problems of inter-
gration. Desegregation is a physical phenomenon, but inter-
723
g r a t i o n i s a p s y c h o l o g i c a l p h a n o n e n a n . T h e m e r e p h y s i c a l
p r e s e n c e o f d i f f e r e n t g r o u p s i n t h e s a m e b u i l d i n g c a n b e b a d
a s w e l l a s goad® I n a h e t e r o g e n e o u s s i t u a t i o n N e g r o c h i l d r c
i f t h e y a r e d i s a d v a n t a g e d , s a y b e u n a b l e t o c o m p e te a c a d e m i
c a l l y * W h ite p u p i l s m ay co m e t o f e e l s u p e r i o r a n d N e g r o p u p
d e s p i s e d a n d lo n e ly ® T h e v a r i o u s g r o u p s m ay d e v e l o p o n l y
d i s r e s p e c t , f e a r o r j e a l o u s y o f e a c h o th e r® T h e q u e s t i o n t o
b e a s k e d a b o u t a l l p r o p o s a l s i s w h e t h e r t h e y w i l l im p r o v e t h
e d u c a t i o n o f th© p u p i l s i n v o l v e d , n o t w h e t h e r t h e y w i l l c o n
t r i b u t e t o t h e o t h e r g o a l s i n v o l v e d , e v e n d e s e g r e g a t i o n , *
B o y o n a g r e e w i t h t h o s e o b s e r v a t i o n s o f t h a t Corasu
s i o n ?
i,
i i o
A T h e r e a r e s o m any o f th em I w o u ld h a v e t o b r e a k
th e ta u p , X t h i n k . I n g e n e r a l , I w o u ld s a y t h a t t h e m o s t b a s
c u r r i c u l u m d e c i s i o n a b o a r d o f e d u c a t i o n e v e r m a k e s i s w ho
i s g o i n g t o s c h o o l w i t h whom, b e c a u s e t h i s s e t s t h e c o n d i t i o
u n d e r w h ic h e n c o u n t e r s t a k e p l a c e .
W h e th e r a c h i l d i s h a p p y i n a s c h o o l , w h e t h e r ofchc
i c
n
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d e s p i s e h im o r n o t , o r w h e th e r t h e y g e t a l o n g o r n o t , c a n * t
b e g u a r a n t e e d ® When y o u a d d w i d e r r a n g e s o f d i f f e r e n c e ,
o b v i o u s l y y o u i n c r e a s e t h e f r i c t i o n s i n a n y k in d o f s l t u a t i o
Y o u kn o w , we w a r e s i n g i n g t h i s b e a u t i f u l l y r i c " g e t t i n g t o
know y o u , “ It m ay b e t h a t w hen I g o t to know y o u , I w o n 't
l i k e y o u a s w e l l a s I d i d b e fo r e ® B u t t h e i s s u e i s , w h e th e r
w e l i k e e a c h o t h e r or n o t , a n d t h i s h a s n e v e r b e e n t h e b a s i s
i®
t
730
17
C
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o f s c h o o l a s s i g n m e n t , w h e th e r k i d s c a n g e t a l o n g o r n o t .
Q T h e q u e s t i o n i s w h e th e r y o u a g r e e w i t h t h a t s t a t e
m e n t .
h I * r a p u t t i n g t h e f o o t n o t e t o t h e s t a t e m e n t s o f g r o u
s u p e r i n t e n d e n t s who, b y a n d l a r g e , a r e m o r t g a g e d m en t o t h e
c o m m u n it i e s t h e y s e r v e .
Q A r e y o u a c q u a i n t e d w i t h S r . A r c h i b a l d B . S h a w , A s a
d a t e S e c r e t a r y o f t h e A m e r ic a n A s s o c i a t i o n o f S c h o o l A d m in i s
t r a t o r s , w ho h a s h i s d o c t o r a t e in e d u c a t i o n f r o m Uew Y o r k
U n i v e r s i t y ?
A W hat * u h i s f i r s t n a n s ?
Q A r c h i b a l d B» S h a w .
A Y e o , I know A r c h i e .
Q L e t me a s k y o u i f y o u a g r e e w i t h t h i s s t a t e m e n t
f r o m Dr® Sh aw *© b o o k e n t i t l e d “ T h e K d g h b o r h o o d S c h o o l * * w h erjs
h e s t a t e s ?
"T h e e l e m e n t a r y s c h o o l s m u s t b e n e ig h b o r h o o d s c h o o f ln
o r b e c o m e m e c h a n ic a l s o r t e r s o f k i d s o r p u r v e y o r s o f a k in d
o f r o b o t e d u c a t i o n . I t i s n o t o n l y d i s t a s t e f u l a n d u n - A m e r ib a r
t o t r y t o c o m p a r t m e n t a l i z e k i d s a c c o r d i n g t o so m e p r e - e s t a b l i s h
e d r e l i g i o u s , c o l o r curl c u l t u r e m ix a s i t i s f u t i l e . P e o p i
who a r e m o re m o b i le t h a n e v e r b e f o r e j u s t w o n 't s t a y pu t® T h e
r e s u l t t o o o f t e n h a s been a r a p i d r e - s e g r e g a t i o n a n d a g e n e r a l
l o w e r i n g o f e d u c a t i o n a l o p p o r t u n i t y f o r a l l . ”
Do y o u a g r e e w i t h D r . S h a w 's v i e w s t h e r e ?
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A In part, there would be a semantic problem here.
If you expand two schools to serve an area, are they still
neighborhood schools, or do you lose neighborhood in the do.i; <
of it, and this is — this takes us back to the question post*
two thousand years ago as to who is ©y neighbor, and I think
here wa get into the biggest problem on it. There is nothin';
that I have seen or observed or read that is hard data that
says that neighborhood schools get more creativeness or per
formance out of children than other kinds.
0 Are you familiar with the publication "The Nation's
Schools"?
A I don't read it regularly.
Q is it a widely circulated document in the education;
profession?
A Yes, particularly among the administrators.
Q Are you familiar with a poll conducted in October,
1963, by that magazine propounding the question to the school
superintendents of the nation about whether de facto segrega
tion warranted an abandonment of the neighborhood schools?
Did you know that such a poll was conducted?
A n o .
q in all candor, Doctor, I'm sure you would agree wit:
a\o that there is a good deal of diversity of professional
opinion concerning the neighborhood school concept and the
educational part concept, is teat correct?
731
732
A Yes, I would certainly agree.
0 There axe an awful lot of professional educators
with good credentials who would disagree with some of the id
you have brought here?
A I would certainly agree.
MR. LIGHT: Thank you, Doctor.
THE COURTs Dr. Dodson, I have enjoyed vour testing
today. It's baon most interesting and informative, and I ho,
nothing I say will bo taken as reflecting on it in any way.
I realize expert© quite often disagree.
2 was quite surprised this morning by your referenj?
to th@ Coleman Report. 1 was interested in it when it came
out and while 2 have not read the report itself, I have reed
several reviews on it. One of them I had down here at the
office, and this one is by Dr. Roger A. Freeman, a senior st
member from the Education Department of Stanford University,
author of several books. This review says, referring to the
Coleman Reports "Moreover, there is no evidence that racial
mixing, per ce, whether by open enrollment, busing or any oti
plan, advances 'immeasurably the achievements of lagging chib
ren. *’ And it goes on to say the sad experiences of Public
School 7 and Public School 8 in Brooklyn.
THE WITNESS * Those are the two.
THE COURT? Again he quotes Christopher Jenks, rev l
ing the Coleman Report in" The New Republic'*, which by no me a.
as
»ny
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1.3 a conservative publications
"Overall, the report makes a convincing although
not definite case for the view that student achievement depen
largely on forces over which today's schools exercise little
control«"
Further clown, discussing the Coleman Report, Henry
Levin of the Brookings Institute, wrote* "Since children
possess a wide rang© of inherited abilities and are products
of different family and community influences, the finding
that most variation in performance is not attributable to th2
schools is hardly surprising* The literature on testing
suggests that from sixty to ninety per cent of the variance
in standarfsad ability tests is attributable to genetic driv 2
in individuals«”
Would you like to comment, on those?
Th e WITNESS* Yes. Th© first part of it, I was
very careful to say that the report said that the children
who did host were in the desegregated schools, but did not
say that — I said somewhere in tike testimony that the differ
ences that have been accomplished, except in isolated instar:-:
hasn't been dramatic, that we have had very little* I think
there are some reasons for this but more or less this is so.
I cited White plains, X think, is different to that, more off©
tive school was not different. Public School 7 and the other
of those four were not dramatically different after the first
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734
two years* X would take exception with the last issue. X
would think this would be a very dangerous period. It would
ba an interpretation that these differences that exist on an
ethnic group basis ~~
THE COURT: X den * t think they were referring to
ethnic groups as such.
THE WITNESS: Ho, but if you took this and looked
at the differences that exist among children, it would bo a
dangerous interpretation, and 1 think that the biggest problu
on it in that you tend to draw generalisations concerning the
sub-cultural group meaning the Hegro group on the basis of
experience that is acquired in the majority group, and observ
tions that are validated there that are not supportable in fch
other context. Somehow or another, when these militants get
hold of some of these kids they can't teach or do anything
else with, they become remarkably intelligent and run circles
around the rest of us. I think it gives the lie to the idea
that the limitations are in the children but in the quality
of the life space which includes the school in which they
function.
THE COURT: Thank you. Doctor.
R E D I R E C T " EiL&FilKTi? I O N
BY MR. KA FLM tt
Q Doctor, in your opinion os an educator or eociolcgi
and human relations consultant, is it ever justification to
TT7
refuse to ixitergrafce or racially balance schools because -ox
difficult or trying circumstances?
A No. If segregation hurts them in their hearts and
ways, likely to never be undone, as the Court, said, then the
resistance of the dominant group to deal with this, I do not
believe, can be a factor that stands in tho way of these cnx
ran achieving their civil rights.
Q Can you over isolate either the white or tho Negro
community from these effects?
A Ho.
0 Is it dangerous to do so?
A I tdiink so.
no t
0 In what ways?
A That we tend then to see this as a racial problem
that it exists with this group or that group, that we are
working on the causes of the racism of the dominant group th
creates the problems for the others.
q r« Dodson, when you spoke- of achieving racial bal
anc@ in a school was this a day to day balance or a project! «>
based on th® coming year or any other period?
A Xn th® average school situation, if there is suffi
eienfc. thinking and planning with regard to it, it might not
be more than once a decade, for instance. The places that
greatest difficulty would occur might be in places that arc
local elementary schools that would be tipped, reach a tippit
d~
m
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eg !
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point* and have a maosivo withdrawal c£ whites from it or
something to this offset, where you might have some problem.
But in spits of the fact the superintendent said yesterday
that they change addresses of some six thousand children eve*'
twenty day©, this doesn't necessarily mean a shift of racial
balance in these schools. The mobility is much more of an
equilibrium kind of thing of a movement vfithin the groups
rather than a shift out of the ghettos.
q One© a community school is established, is a great
deal of that problem obviated?
h Yes. It*® been my experience in these schools I
have worked with that this is so.
q ffoere was talk about flight and any available alter
native. From your experience in Hew Rochelle, would you des
cribe Hew Rochelle, vis a vis, it’s relationship to other
communities around Hew York City?
h Well, it’s located i n the southern end of Weschest
County, surrounded by other bedroom type communities of the
suburbs of Hew York. Xt has the low ibcobss segment in it,
many of whom provide maid service for a large area around
where they can't live otherwise.
On top of tills or in relation to this is a growing
middle-class community of Negroes who present all the charac
teristics of stability and all that the white groups present,
n So this is only one of several identifiable satell -
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. 2r
communities where people work in I Jew York City?
A That*a righta
q V & s there a flight from Kew Rochelle ifcsolf to oth
communities around it?
h IJOu Real estate people tried to toll them that Kc
Rochelle was running down, but it's a couch stronger community
now than it was then.
Q That judge in the Hew Rochelle case was Judge Knur
man?
b I'm sorry. It had slipped my mind. I thought it
was Judge Kaplan.
Q How, with reference to Prince Edward County, Virgin
is that not a school district where Heal Sullivan raade his f
attempt at desegregating schools?
A That's right.
Q Is he the same Heal Sullivan who is now in Berkeley
California?
A That's right. Ha is now moving to Commissioner of
Education in Massachusetts.
q Do you know anything of his work, in Berkeley?
A It's been quite outstanding.
q was that a good faith effort on the part of the
entire community to attempt a policy of complete desegregatijs
A Yes, one of the outstanding in America.
q Doctor, do you see any difference in"your own mind
is
r s i
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730
of the demonstrable plan in the Kew Rochelle case to keep a
segregated school district and the tradition and legacy of a
dual school system in the south?
A Hot particularly.
Q M. E. Sa, More Effective Schools, is a compensatory
ed uc at ion techn iqu a ?
h That's right. It had nothing to do with desegrega
tion.
Q There was also talk about the relatively small num
ber of JTsgro children who transferred in an open enrollment
busing situation. Can you account for the relatively small
number of people who did this?
A In part, tho bureaucracy did its best to keep it
from coming off well in the beginning at least.. David Rogers
documents this in his book called ”110 Livingston Street"
which is a study of tho school system. In part, it did not
succeed because, like all programs of this sort, it puts the
responsibility for seeking redress for any quality upon the
parent and his child rather than its being a public responsi
bility and, third, the limitation of space in the outlying
schools involved in it, and, four, the conflict on the part
of the more astute Hegro leadership as to whether, if they
took their children out and sent them to tho outlying schools
they wouldn't simply drain off tho leadership from the comnam
ifci.es where the problems existed and, therefore, weaken furth
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their communities.
Q In your experience, Dr. Dodson, has any system ever
been effective in desegregating schools where the burden has
been placed exclusively on the child who is to desegregated?
h Kg , sir.
Q Is it possible, in your opinion, to do this — ■
THE COURTi That is outside the confines of this
case.
ME. ItM'I/ult That is all* Your Honor.
ME. LIGHT? One question, if Your Honor please.
RECROSS EXAMIKATIGN
BY MR. LIGHT*
q You mentioned several seasons that you accept as
accounting for the small number of Negro students who availed
themselves of the opportunity to be bused out to the predomi
nantly whit® schools. Could another valid reason be that
both Hegro and white parents prefer to have the children atto
school in the neighborhood where they live?
& For a considerable number, this would bo so.
MR. LIGHTt Thank you.
THE COURTS Thank you, Doctor.
(Witness excused.)
MR. WALKERs Your Honor, before beginning with the
next witness, it might save time if we might pray the Court
to take judicial knowledge of the fact of private discritaina
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in housing in the city of Little Rock.
Tim COURT: I cannot taka a judicial knowledge of
private discrimination. It's been shown in this cssa beyond
question that a great deal of the housing in Little Sock is
segregated, but I don't say that is necessarily discriminate
MR. RGTEHBERRY: Your Honor, may I remind the Cour
I have asked Ur. Barron to be present about 2:30 in accorda
with our discussion in chambers yesterday. If ho coses in,
in the event Mr. Meeks is going to bo semetime, if wo could
interrupt Mr. Meeks0 testimony --
TilS COURT: It would be all right with the Court.
Thereupon,
WILLIAM R. MEEKS, JR.
having been called as a witness by counsel for plaintiff, an
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows $
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
q Would you state your name and your occupation, pie
h William R» Meeks, Jr.? realtor.
THE COURT: Mr. Meeks, did you testify last August
TOE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURTt Yea, I see.
BY MR. WALKER*
q How long have you bean a realtor in tho City of
741
Little Rock?
A I have been engaged in real estate or accompanying
business since 1947® I’ve been a realtor since 1954*
q l see, la there an association o£ realtors in the
City of Little Rock?
A Yes*
q is the racial composition of the membership of that
organization all white?
A Yes®
0 Are there Kegro realtors in the City of Little Reel
h There are Negro real estate people in the City of
Little Rock*
?
q And do they have a separate organisation?
A X’m not sure*. I believe they do, Mr. Walker.
q x s@e® Mar. Meeks, before# at the August 16th hear-•
ing, you indicated that you did not know of any real estate
persons who developed subdivisions in predominantly white
areas who would have, prior to 1968, sold homes to Negroes
willingly, is that true?
A. 1 believe X stated I did not know of it.
Q You did not?
A No.»
q Have you over been very much involved in the real
estate association in the last few years?
A I have been a member since 1954.
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Q Have you held any office in the organization?
b Yea, 1 have been president.
Q When were you president?
h In — really, I don't recall. I think 1950 or *5S.
Q ted were you also named "Real Estate Man of the
Year" or some similar title?
THE C O U R T S That's on page 297.
BY MR. WALKER*
Q All right. Mr. Meeks, did you have occasion in
the years in between 1954 and 1958 to advertise houses or rei
estate listed .for sale with you in the Arkansas Gazette?
A Yes.
q Were you aware of the fact that during this perice
of time, the Arkansas Gazette and the Arkansas Democrat, boll
local newspapers, had separate listings for colored property:
A Yes.
Q And was it ever an occasion for you to list proper 1
as for sale to colored?
h Well, now, the heading — * the way it*s carried in
the paper as "colored property for sale’' or "colored property
for rent".
q Yes.
A On occasion the particular individual sales person
that had the particular ad does place the heading in the war1
ads where he wants it.
743
Q So would you say that what you would do, when you
place advertisements in the Gazette for homes to be sold, tbfc-t
if the property was to be listed for sale to Hegroes, you wo hi cl
have it placed under the Item Ho. 165, "colored property for
sale"?
A In certain instances, that's correct.
Q I sec. Would this sometimes be because of the fac
that the owners of the property requested that the property
be sold to Begroes?
A In sosts cases, yes.
Q And v.ou.ld you also list property in the general
"for sale" section because of the fact that the owner did no
want that property to be sold to negroes?
A 1, suppose it could be that, yes.
0 Would you have an opinion, Mr. Meeks, as to whethejr
or not, between the years 1954 through 1966, there did exist
to soma considerable degree private discrimination in housing
A You will have to define what you mean.
THE COURT? You're standing so close to Mr. Meeks
they can’t hear you, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER* All right. Your Honor.
BY MR. WALKERS
q would you have an opinion as a real estate broker
as to whether, in the years between 1954 and 1966, there exi
in the City of Little Rock considerable private discriminatih
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in housing?
A If by that you mean there were people that would
ask us or tell us when wcj listed property that it was for sal
to white or colored, y«»#
0 11 cm, I show you copies of the Arkansas Gazette whir
have bean taken the pages of which have been taken frora
the Sunday Gazette of the first or second Sunday in the raont
of Hay for each year beginning in 13S4 and going through 136
and I ask you if this appears to ba an accurate copy of the
kind of advertising that would appear on a typical. Sunday in
those years?
IBS COURT* You don't have to look at every page*
THE WXTSESS s I would say yes, it seems to be a
reproduction of the copy ox the want ads section.
b y m r „ mu<ms
0 I would just like to call your attention to the
page numbered ?~C here which you have identified as having
appeared in the Arkansas Gazette on May 3, 1953, and ask if
this also appears to ba a typical page and the map which appb
on this page appears fco be a typical map setting out 'the var
ioua residential areas of the City of Little Rock?
A Yes.
q Mr. Me e k s , I notice the number 150 is also given t
“colored property for ren t " and, correspondingly,the number
165 is given to the one "colored property for sale". Do you
745
32 1 recall that having boon done?
2 A The way th® want ads are listed, the specific itenu
3 are under number, but as far as reading ie concerned, I recog-
4 ni?re that, yea*
5 Q Are you aware of the fact that in the City of LittJje
6 Rock, there was no such number on the map here as 150 or 165'
7 A X think these are specific locations, and what you
8 number her® is just a general classification,,
9 Q So what those numbers reflect is "colored property
10 for sale” in the City of Little Rock or wherever it is located,
11 or in th© City of Borth Little Rock?
12 A Yes, and it is also under the general heading of
13 “white" * too*
14 MR* WALKERt Your Honor, I would like this to be
15 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 3* This exhibit purports to bo
16 rentals and real estate sales listings which appeared in the
17 Arkansas Gazette for either the first or the second Sunday Jr»
18 May for these years* The red markings contained thereon iden-
19 tify property for rent or for sale to colored and are number*m3
20 cither 150 or 165*
21 THE COURTsi It will be received.
22 (The documents were marked
23 Plaintiff's Exhibit Bo. 3 for
24 identification, and were recej.v<
25 in evidence.)
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SY m o WALKERS
Q Mr. Kecks, I think Mr. Friday handed you a list of
subdivisions which have been initiated since ~~
A 1940.
Q ~ 1940, and another list of subdivisions which
have been started since 1961* I ask you if you are familiar
with most of those subdivisions?
A With many of them, yes.
Q Can you state whether any of those subdivisions h?*a
been populated predominantly* initially by Negro people?
A Well, X haven't gone through them.
Q You haven't gone through the list?
A There’s eight or nine pages, and X just got it.
Q I • r,t sorry. I thought Mr. Friday g a v e it to you
earlier*
3\ in the list that is noted “1961 to 1968", of those
that I am familiar with, there is only one.
Q A n d w h i c h is that, M r . M e e k s ?
A U n i v e r s i t y P a r k N o r t h .
Q Y o u s a y U n i v e r s i t y P a r k h a s i n i t i a l l y b e e n populate
by Negroes?
A Ye a*
q Mr. M e e k s , d i d y o u k n o w t h a t o f y o u r o w n p e r s o n a l
k n o w l e d g e ?
A I b e l i e v e 21 h a v e b e e n d e e d e d , as f a r as t h e d e e d s
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are concerned, in the last —~ well, up until the first par»~
of tliis week*
Q Isn't it true, though, Mr® Keeks, that the initial
resident of University Park 'was white?
A The first one?
Q Yes.
A X don't know who bought the first lot.
Q And isn't it true, Mr. Keeks, that at present three
of the six residents in University Park are white?
h 1 don't know that. The information X have of the
first 31 lots, 29 are Negro.
q You don't have any other information? From which
source do you have your information?
A Hie Housing Authority.
G Bo you recall that there was considerable public
debate about the method by which the Housing Authority would
dispose of lots in the University Park area?
■ A There was information in the newspapers to that
effect, yes.
q And d o y o u r e c a l l t h a t H a g r o c i t i z e n s p r o t e s t e d t in
H o u s in g A u t h o r i t y ' s p l a n t o h a v e t h e e n t i r e b l o c k o f l a n d
know n a s U n i v e r s i t y P a r k N o r t h s o l d t o p r i v a t e r e a l e s t a t e
d e v e l o p e r s ?
I think that was involved in the debate.
And do you know also whether the argument made byG
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the poraons was that they did not want Urban Renewal to repea
the West Rock experience?
THE COURTS We are getting into something too far
afield.
Kilo WALKER % All right, then.
BY I t mLKERs
0 So aside from that University Park project, you
recognise all of the rest of the projects that have been und2
taken there ~~
A No, the ones,I recognised «*- that is, the only one
1 knew that's bean populated initially by Negroes®
Do you want si© to go through the list?
Q I f you could just scan through it®
THE COURTS How many pages are there?
THE WITNESS: About six or seven page®.
MR® WALKER: Listed very simply, Your Honor®
THE WITNESS: Granite Heights is one.
BY MR. WALKERS
Q That is another Housing Authority project, isn't i:
which is located in the extreme eastern part of the City adj »
cent to the Granite Mountain School?
A That's correct. In going through, I noticed no
other initially populated by Negro, but I notice a large
number of these are outside the city limits in the county.
Q But a large number are within the city limits?
749
1 h That’s right.
2 MR. WALKERt I would like this introduced as Plain
3 tiff's Exhibit 4.
4 IBS COURTs It will be received.
5 (The docui&ant. was marked Plain
6 tiff's Exhibit Ho. 4 for idea :i-
7 lieation, and was received in
8 evidence.)
9 BY MR. WALKER*
10 G Hem, Mr. Meeks, are you familiar with the project
11 operated by the Housing Authority of the City of Little Rock >
12 A You mean in the currant, execution of the —
13 0 Ho, the low rent housing projects.
14 h You have the on® at Granite Heights we talked abcu t.
15 one that's immediately north of the airport, I believe, Ho 13.ing
16 worth Homes*
17 q xn Granite Heights, you have both a middle-income
18 project there, do you not, and also across the street from
19 there a low rent housing unit —
20 A That's right.
21 q — operated by the housing unit?
22 h That's true.
23 G A n d t h e L i t t l e R o c k p u b l i c s c h o o l o p e r a t e s t w o
24 elementary schools within the area, is that right?
25 h Granite Mountain and Gilliam. 1
750
Q where is the next project located* You said
Ho lling sfwor fch ?
h Hollingsworth Homes, insaediatoly north of the airj; ort«
Q And that is in the extreme east and northeastern
part of the School District?
h Yes, sir*
Q And it*« located within several blocks of the Carver
School?
A That is correct.
Q Do yon know of any other projects operated — » low
income projects operated by the Little Hock Housing Authority?
h Wall, Ives Homes at 200 East 29th*
Q Would that be in what is known as the Washington
attendance area?
A It’s in the area. 1 don * t know whether that's the
particular attendance area or not.
0 But you would know that the Washington Elementary
School is several blocks from the Ives Court, as you call it?
h Yes.
0 Would you ala© know whether the — that is, whether
the school and the project were constructed more or less wit ilr
the same period of time?
A Offhand, 2 don’t, no, sir.
0 Are there other low rent housing projects operated
by the City of Little Rock?
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A You have the project of West I2th and the project,
I believe on 28th and Battery®
Q On West I2th Street, what would be the school close
to the West 12th Street project?
A You mean elementary?
Q Y e s ®
h Either Lee School cr Stephens.
Q Either Le© or Stephens? I ask you if you would come
over here, iir» Keeks, and look at the map a little more care
fully and tell me whether or not Franklin is closer®
A Franklin and Lee are almost the same distance®
Q So Franklin and Leo are in close proximity to the
project on 12th Street?
A Yes.
q And that project has been predominant©!'/ white sine
its inception, is that right?
h X believe t h a t ' s true®
0 Do you know whether the City Housing Authority has
recently bean the subject of a Federal Law Suit?
A 1 know by reading in. the paper, and so forth.
KR® WALKERs Your Honor, what v/e would like to do,
for whatever worth at a later time, have included in the reco
a copy of the complaint and the consent decree in the case of
the United States against the Little Rock Housing Authority.
THE COURT? I d o n ' t know about the complaint.
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Complaints are usually extravagantly phrased. The consent ord
might be more objective,
MR, WALKERS Your Honor, I think that would save timfa
It would not bo submitted to show the truth of the allegations
contained therein 'but only fco show that the allegations were,
in fact/ made and the consent decree was, in fact, entered,
•ms COURTS You could dictate into the record by stif?
'alaticn or otherwise that the complaint was filed seeking to
do certain things and that shortly thereafter a consent judgsae^
was entered, I don't want that complaint in It.
MR® WALKERS All right. Your Honor,
Your Honor, 1 understand that Hr. Barron is her® and
if I may, X would like to interrupt this witness * s examination.
THE COURTt All right.
(The witness who was being examined was temporarily
withdrawn fro® the stand.)
Thereupon,
DR. EDWIN N. BARRON, JR,
having been called as a witness by counsel for defendants, and
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows s
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY HR* ROTEHBERRYs
Q Will you state your name and address, please.
A Edwin H, Barron, 1 Wildwood Road, Little Rock.
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753
Q You ate a practicing physician in the city, in that
correct?
A That’s correct®
Q And for how long have you been engaged in the practi;
of medicine here in Little Rock?
A Three and one half years.
G Br« Barron, you testified earlier in this hearing,
I believe last August, is that correct?
A That's correct®
Q And you currently occupy the position of president
of the Board of Directors of fcha Little Rock School District,
is that correct?
A Yes, sir®
Q And for how long have you served as its president?
A Since March of this year.
Q And for how long have you served as a member of the
Board itself?
A For two and a half years®
q Subsequent to the recess of this hearing in August,
did the Board consider various alternative, plans or proposals
for the implementation of desegregation plan leading up to tine
adoption of the present plan at a meeting on November 15th?
A That's corroct«
G And did you individually and personally participate
in the consideration and study of these various alternative
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754
proposals?
h That0 n correct*
Q I aastun© that you, of course, considered the plan tha
was approved by the Board at its meeting on November 15th, is
that correct?
h Yes®
Q Both with regard to the faculty desegregation plan
and the pupil desegregation plan,, which is based upon geograph
ical attendance acmes.
Mow, Dr* Barron, how did you vote at the meeting on
November 15th in connection with the approval of the present
plan?
A Affirmatives
q since tliat time, Doctor, have you given continuing
consideration to the plan?
h Yes.
0 Do you feel at this time. Doctor, about the plan as
you did on November 15th when you voted for it?
h Mo.
Q Would you state what your present feelings are with
regard to the plays?
A Well, the plan, at the time that X voted for it, X
considered it as a plan that would be legally acceptable to the
Court from Use direction that we had received as X understood
it
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'11)0 plan itself, at tha time I felt would meet this
obligation and I felt also that it would be, as an administra
tive plan, a sound plan for operation*
I have sines had mor© than just second thoughts, but
continuing thoughts an concerning this plan and concerning the
entire problem that's been facing this school beard during the
years X have been on it and the years preceding*
Q Doctor, excuse me, but how would you, if you can,
characterise the problem the school board has been facing and
still does?
h The problem that we have been facing, as I said in
my own estimation, is a problem to achieve a degree of accept
able intergrabion to both parties concerned. By saying "both",
speaking of th® extremes at one end and on the other and find
ing something in between that will furnish a solution to the
agonising moments that various people have had.
G Do I understand — *
THE COURT % You interrupted him. Go ahead, Doctor.
THE WITiJESTs Th© plan that we have developed, 1 stiJ
see it as a good plan from the standpoint of administration.
1 do not see it as a good plan for th© implementation of inter-
gration. X think in my own mind, the process X have worked in
my own mind in going through this, that we have taken the entii
thing of th© subject of intergration and put it completely bad
Tli© thing that has been paramount in the press has beewards.
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756
whether or not wa should have included gerrymandering* whether
or not wo should have gene to strip zoning and all the consider
felon hast been at our high school level, which is really begin
ning, in ray estimation, completely backward*
Dr* Goldliamraer testified in the first part of this
trial that there were five areas that the public school system
should be paramount in responsibility for in the education of
a child* He listed of these five, the first one he mentioned,
was the preparation of giving of the tools of knowledge to the
children* number two, social acceptability* three, to become
economically productive* number four, to help generate self
esteem* and number five, and he said this was debatable, was
that of moral responsibility as being taught by the actions of
t'ho teacher with regard to the student. And Mr. Walker and
j?r. Goldhammer both stated that the one involved here is the
self esteem of the child, in a non-inbergrated situation that
there is less self esteem and because of this, the child ouffe
and we are failing to meet that responsibility. I agree entir
that this is true.
I think because of this that we should consider, and
X have read during the last few months several reports about
development of self esteem, and one of them is Dr. Stanley
Coppersmith in his "Antecedence of Self Esteem". He states
in tlris 600-plus page book that self esteem, by and large, is
developed prior even to beginning school. Self esteem is
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757
developed befora six* It begins at age sis months, and
that by age sis, by and large, self esteem is developed.
I began to wonder what w© * ro talking about; in this
trial, if we*re talking about meaningful inter gr at.ion, not just
reiving by numbers, then this would mean something in which the
self esteem of each individual would not fca threatened but
would be h e l p e d 1 think the School Board, in its action at
©ur last School Board meeting, made a very significant step in
adopting to study a report by the University of Arkansas for
three, four and five year old children*
Dig Goldhammer, in bringing out these five points,
left out in ay o m estimation something that is very important®
We don’t know when we are dealing with children* We say we. ve
got 25,000 children, we have 1400 first graders in one area,
and so many hundred in another area® When we talk about the
children we have been using, at the School Board meetings and
it seems to mm in this trial, just numbers? but in talking aboi
children, we don't know by tha tins® the child starts the first
grad® at age six how many times fch© children — how many times
the child has been beaten by his parents, m don't know th®
degree of self esteem that he has, we don't know how many times
he has had his head banged on th® floor when his diaper was
being changed* These are all imponderables, but we do know
that if wo are going to take the responsibility in this area,
which I think, we should, that we should begin at age three, at
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/ 30
age four, age five, and not only teach the five cardinal thines
or paramount things as Dr. Goldhamsxor referred to them, but
let "a do some things that are positive in the standpoint of
undoing*
Let's undo and take away th© things that have threat -
ened the self esteem of the child® According to Mr. Stanley
Coppersmith of University of California, by the time you read
age fourteen ox* age fifteen or sixteen, alsosfe total self estc a
is developed.
1 still do not see nor do I think it is even import*n
about the gerrymandering of a few students at Hall High School
or any other school, ha have started at the wrong end* The
self esteem is developed. The purpose of intergration has
already failed by the time you reach this ago.
Xt'c been pointed out, and 1 believe by Dr. Errcksor,
that when you reach this age that even though you include a
70-30 per cent balance, that the children at this age are goirc
to go ahead and r©-segregate themselves not only in the ethnic
bxit socio-econosu-c groups and xn sttsxnment of education. By
this, 1 mean education in the way of substance of knowledge.
Th© children that are brighter will stick together,
and the children that are dull will stick together, so I thin*
that all of us have been suffering from tunnel vision when we
have looked at just what it is that's wrong.
Sf© have said that the school system should racially
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balances. This may bo tru®. w® have said that the plan is a
bad pl&xu I have said that the plan is a bad plan except as
an administrative plan, X*a not sure this is true but X think
this is true* What we seesa to mo to b® doing ia saying that
in bit tie Slock, not only in Little Rock but the entire nation,
that all of us hera have the entire country on trial, not just
the Little Rock Public School system but the entire country as
it comprises our society, the same society that has developed
a school system that by, no means# could be considered to bo
optimala
We are operating a school system on a nine months
years. This is bad, m are operating a school system, public
grades, number 1 through 12, Where did that arbitrary number
c m © from? m are operating a school system ages six through
eighteen. Where did this cone from? Should w® continue in
the top level poets in our school system- to have people who
are primarily educators and administrators or should we have
psychologists and sociologists in equal top posts?
The same, society that has created this school system
that in many ways can bo considered a mess from the standpoint
of economics and optimal educational opportunity has also creak
the judicial branch and tine Court we are sitting in right now,
The reason 1 develop- this is because the problem, that has con
tinued to com© to mo, and still continues to com© to me# is tlia
problem of what is the role of the School Board member, and I
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have undergone constant introspective evaluation to try fco
find out just what ray role might bo« I know what I would pars 3
ally prefero I would personally sympathize with th© people who
are interveners® I would like to have ray children go into an
intergrated situation, so they would not grow up with the same
fears that. X have® 1 would like for them to be free of fear®
But at the same time, I*ra not sure of 'what ray responsibility
is®
It seems to taa that wo are asking, you are asking and
perhaps all of us are asking, the public school systems to
correct what is a social injustice® Vte have people, as you loo
at this map and has been brought out in the first part of this
trial and as 1 have read ia the first part, w® see Negroes liv
ing in one section and whites in another section, whites of an
upper middle income living in one area and we see white® of a
lower income living in another area.
If you have the Negroes and the whites in a community
separated because of economic deprivation, because of the preju
dice of people that hired them for jobs, because they are con
sidered second rat® citizens by many or most pe ople that deal
with them, this is a social injustice? and the pattern we have
is a social Injustice, but that is the way the school was devel
oped aa a neighborhood school system®
It seems to me wo are asking the school system, if
we are asking the school system, to racially balance to take
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on What X have personally thought, of as s judicial function,,
If the school system is going to say ye're going to racially
balance, from what 7. can read and froia the testimony that X ha
read from the trial, 1 think that's equivocal whether or not
lt*s found to racially balance* But if the school system is t
do this, we axe saying the school system is to undo a social
injustice that has occurred because cf the development or. our
entire society, and I'm speaking not just of this city*
X don't know if this is my purpose as a School Board
member* If 1 could once ascertain in my mind this is so, X
would have no hesitation in using whatever means necessary to
achieve that balance, bat I have searched and searched and X
cannot come up with an answer as to whether or not a school
board should assume what X consider to ba judicial rssponsibii
ity in correcting what has been a terrible social injustice.
S don't know the answers* 1 don't know hew you devc
a plan for something like that* 1 think that, as I mentioned,
the study that has been adopted at the last school board meet
ing is a beginning* X wish we could get away from the concept,
of trying to play with numbers at a secondary level. X5m not
saying that it's incorrect and that it is not desirable, but
I wish we would start where we could start and erase the thing
in the children’s minds that are already there by the time tnc
are fourteen.
BY MR* ROTEHBERRYs
70
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Q D r . Barron, would you agree that if the school syatea
has played a part in and contributed to these social injustice!!
to w h i c h you r a t e r , t h a t it would them be an obligation of the
s c h o o l b o a r d to c o r r e c t t h e effects of these past injustices?
A Inasmuch as the responsibility e£ the school board
would lie in this area, 1 would say yss# very definitely so*
1 know that prior to the initial decision by the Supreme Court
that w © d i d a d o p t a secne system, yot w a had dual tones, school;?
for Kegroes to a t t e n d and zone® for whites® This was an in jus
tice ®
q You do feel the school system did contribute to soma
of the injustices to which you referred?
A 1 don't know how to manure this, but I would think
that this is correct,
Q In your estimation, will the plan that you see there
on the board, Defendant's Exhibit 22, will it eliminate the
effects of past racial discrimination in the school system?
A In lay own opinion, no®
q will it eliminate racially identifiable schools?
h From the standpoint of faculty, this would be true,
tout as was pointed out in the first part of the trial, there
are several schools named for Degrees leaders, I don't know t
short of changing the name of the school, you could remove the
identity.
Q Excluding the name of the school for a moment and
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referring only to the: pupil plan rather than to the faculty
plan, do you believo that the pupil desegregation plan will
eliminate racially identifiable schools?
A It may help, but it is not a solution and I will
repeat that, as 2 stated before, I believe the plan we have
adopted is a sound administrative plan. I think again the nn—
swor to this, and if it is the court's to tell us, 1 would wel
com® the Court, to toll -as w h a t is the r e s p o n s i b i l i t y of a echo3
board member« X£ it is balancing, then X wish we knew. we
are to overcome social injustice, as you pointed out, if this
is our responsibility as well as the education of the children,
then this is what w® should do*
Or. Goldhammer, again referring to the first part of
tixe trial, prior to outlining the five areas paramount, stated
the primary purpose of a public school system is to provide ax>
excellent education inasmuch as can h© done. Now, is this oth =
a primary responsibility? Again, X do not know.
Q Dr. Barron, is it fair to assume from your testimony
that if you had to vote for this plan again, that you would
not vote for it?
A I find it difficult to answer that yes or no. As a
plan for administration, yes? as a plan for achieving what I ra
not sure what we are supposed to achieve, and from what X have
outlined to you, no, X v c u .lu pc-....
q as a desegregation plan, no, other than the administi
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tivo aspects of it, is that correct?
A As a desegregation plan, I would say no, because in
my mind, I cannot resolve it as a desegregation, .plan from a
pupils standpoint.
Q Dr. Barron, there*© been considerable testimony in
evidence in this case that one of the obstacles in the path of
the school district's ability to implement a plan which would
go a greater way forward in eliminating racially identifiable
schools is money. Would you agree with that?
A 1 would prefer yon be more specific in what you mean
by money*
Q The financial capacity or ability of the School Dis
trict to implement other alternative plans.
K We're talking about an area from $10 million outlined
in the Oregon Report to conflicting testimony of two hundred
to five hundred thousand for transportation, as was outlined
earlier.
q bet me try to simplify ray question. Was there discus
sion in your consideration of other plans of cost factors?
A Yea.
q And did this discussion — was the consensus of some
of this discussion that it would cost, money beyond what the
School District presently has to implement something other than
a geographical zoning plan?
A Some of the plans proposed would require more money.
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T h e s i m p l e g e r r y m a n d e r in g w o u ld n o t h a v e r e q u i r e d , a o wo d i e -
c u s s e d i t , a n y f i n a n c i n g * T h e s t r i p z o n i n g , a s o u t l i n e d i n
t h e P a r s o n s P l a n i n t h e f o r m a t i o n o f t h e A lp h a a n d B e t a C o m p le x
c o u l d p a r t i a l l y h a v e b e e n clon e w i t h o u t a n i n c r e a s e i n m o n e y .
Q I n t h a t c o n n e c t i o n , t h e B e t a C o m p le x , a b o u t W hich
t h e r e ha© b e e n so m e t e s t i m o n y , y o u a r e f a r a i l i a r w i t h t h e B e t a
C o m p le x a s o u t l i n e d i n M r. P a r s o n s * P l a n , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A Y S 0 *
q B i d I u n d e r s t a n d y o u t o s a y t h a t i t w o u ld n o t c o s t
a g r e a t a d d i t i o n a l a m o u n t o f m on ey t o im p le m e n t t h e B e t a C om p!
h W ith o u t the* p r o v i s i o n o f t r a n s p o r t a t i o n o r so m e o f
t h e o t h e r p r o v i s i o n s o u t l i n e d , i t w o u ld n o t h a v e c o s t a l o t o f
m on ey f o r t h a t o n e t h i n g . I c a n n o t t e s t i f y a s t o w h a t F e d e r a l
f u n d s w o u ld d o t o t h i s , i n l i g h t o f w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d i n I , i t t l 3
R o c k t h e l a s t fe w w e e k s .
Q T h e B e t a C o m p le x , i n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g , w o u ld h a v e
m ad e u s e o f a l l e x i s t i n g f a c i l i t i e s ?
h T h a t ' s c o r r e c t .
0 with p o s s i b l e e x p e n d i t u r e s f o r r e n o v a t i o n o r r e p a i r
o f so m e o f t h e f a c i l i t i e s i n t h e c o m p le x ?
h T h a t ‘ s c o r r e c t .
q D r . B a r r o n , a s s u m i n g t h e f i n a n c i a l a b i l i t y o r c a p a c i
o f t h e S c h o o l D i s t r i c t t o im p le m e n t a p l a n w h ic h w o u ld , i n f a c
e l i m i n a t e s c h o o l s i d e n t i f i a b l e b y r a c e , d o y o u f e e l t h a t t h i s
B o a r d c o u l d f o r m u l a t e p o l i c y w i t h i n w h ic h S u p e r i n t e n d e n t P a r s
iX?
: e s .
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c n, m,
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and his staff could develop a plan to accomplish this?
YES COURTs I dojft understand that question.
THIS WITNESSt I don't either.
BY m. ROSTS&RESRYs
Q Given the financial capacity of the District —
THE COURT? You mean given additional finances or
the present?
MR. ROTENBSRRY f Given additional finances.
BY MR* ROTESBERRYs
Q Assuming that money was not a problem -»
1!E COORTs The answer to that question is yes, of
course.
THE WITNESSs Yes, I will agree with that.
KR, ROTElSBERRYs Nothing further.
TUB COURTS Let's take a short recess.
{A short recess was taken.)
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAYt
q Doctor, would you describe your task as a Board
member as an agonising, time consuming task in trying to do the
right thing?
A Yes, sir®
0 is that a fair description?
A Yes, sir, that's a fair description.
q Would you say that that has been a typical situation
766
1 of the Board members that have been your associates while you
2 have served on the Bcsrd?
3 h X'd cay that in this, we have all discussed this mat :er
4 Vie have discussed it privately among ourselves, we have discus ;ed
5 it in open. Board meetings, we have discussed it socially, wo
6 have discussed it in standing around the administrative office 3,
7 not in session.
8 It seems to me that everyone on the Board is giving
9 this a great deal off consideration.
10 0 Doctor, since good faith, some way or another, gets
11 to bo an issue in these matters, would you state to the Court
12 whether you and the other Board members have exercised good
13 faith in trying to solve these problems and in the decision
14 pertaining to it that you have made?
15 A 1 think that I have. I’m not certain. I have tried
16 not to let ray own prejudices and hatred enter into this deci
17 sion concerning any School Board matter. I think I have, but
18 I can't be 100 per cent certain.
19 q you have done a lot of soul-searching about it, have a’t
20 you, Doctor?
21 h Yes, sir.
22 Q You couldn’t ask for any more.
23 Doctor, let's go to the issue that was before you on
24 November 15th, and X suppose is before everyone in the Court,
25 now, and that is the available, feasible alternatives for 1961
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760
Would it be fair to say that you predicated your vota
on Kcveribor 15th on the basis that this plan which is depicted
on Defendant's Exhibit 22 was the only available, feasible
alternative for 1563?
h I would limit in my own understanding the use of the
two adjectives that are there, available and feasible*
0 Doctor, you mask© any explanation you care to*
SHE COURTS And please speak a little louder. Doctor
TEE WITHERS s As relating to the two adjectives that
you precede this with, available and feasible, available, os
X understood what the directive was of this Court, available
from th® standpoint of economics, feasible encompassing the
first thing brought cut in the Oregon Report, that any plan has
to have the cooperation of the community, again I say I think
so® I'm not certain*
BY MR. FRIDAY s
0 well, I won't ask you for more. Doctor. Just one
other question*
Mx» Rotenherry questioned you about the Beta Complex*
You are not recommending the incorporation of the Beta Complex
concept into the plan that you voted on on November 15, 1368,
are you, Doctor?
h 1 would not he prepared to make that recommendation*
1 haven't even considered it it a plan like tills, and 1 don't
know how this would work in isolation from the rest of the
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769
report.prepared by Kr* Parsons.
HR. FRIDAY; That's all.
MR. ROTEKBDlsilYi Ona further question on redirect.
Your Honora
BY MR. ROTESSERBX*
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
q Dr. Barren, again with reference to the Beta Complex
that involves the concept of pairing of schools in order to
bring about an acceptable degree of desegregation ——
A That's correct.
Q Do you feel that the pairing concept is a feasible
and workable device, one of several by which to accomplish an
acceptable degree of desegregation?
A. I don't know. I refer back again — and I am honest
not trying to be a bit evasive in my answer — I just simply
don't know because, again, I don’t fully at this tine «— maybe
tomorrow or ten minutes from now '*”* at this time I don t fully
1-mow whether or not the incorporation of numbers for eorrectin
a social injustice is a part of the function of the Board.
From the standpoint of providing a degree of inter-
gration, this is a feasible thing. From the standpoint of
what I find is personally desirable to me for my own children
to ba in an intergrated situation, I would consider it as a
feasible tiling and a desirable thing.
As a School Board member and discharging my responsi
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bill ties, I'm just not sure.
Q Well, on paper. Doctor,
THE COURT? Don't think you have covered that adequately
and the doctor has been very frank with you about it?
MR. EOTEMSERRYs All right, Your Honor.
BY MR. ROXEBBERRYt
Q Dr. Barron, do you have an opinion respecting whether
or not this community, the voters within this School District
within the immediate future, would ever support at the polls
a desegregation plan which would achieve racial balance within
the schools? Do yeti have an opinion?
THE COURT? Are you talking about money or voting on
in ter gr at ion?
MR. R0TEH3ERRY? Well, both, Your Honor. As I under
stand it ~~ <;j
THE COURT* Well, wo all know the question of inter-
gration or segregation is an issue that is not determined by
public vote. W@ all know that.
If you're talking about money, the voters have it
within their power to give or deny to the School Board money.
MR. ROTEHBERRY: All right, I will rephrase ray quest..o n [
BY MR. ROTEHBEffflY*
q Doctor, do you have an opinion respecting whether or
not the voters within the School District would vote in favor
25 of a bond issue or an increase in millage to provide the money
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771
to implement a plan by -which racial balance within the schools
might be achieved?
A Would you phrase that just one® wore? X*a sorry.
Q Have you, in your consideration of the problem as
president of the Board and ass a member of the Board, developed
an opinion as to whether or not the voters within the School
District would vote the School Board money to put in a plan
which would accomplish racial balance in the schools?
A It would depend on the plan. It would depend on
whether or not the Court had clearly outlined that this was a
responsibility of the school aystea* It would depend on wheth<
or not the Board itself could be unified in producing the lsack
ship for this* It would depend on complete cooperation.
Under all of these circumstances, taking then ideally
theoretically, it would fos possible. From a practical standpo:
I don * t think that a plan such as the Oregon Plan or the Parser
Plan or a plan that would he based primarily on this type of a
plan would afc this very moment acceptable.
SHE COURT: Doctor, you have answered his question.
MR. ROTEITBERRYs I appreciate the difficulty of the
question, Doctor, and I appreciate the answer.
THE COURTi You rmy step down.
(Witness excused.)
MR. WALKERt May X finish with Mr. Meeks?
Thereupon,
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112
WILLIAM R. MEEKS, JR.
having previously been called && a witness and having previousjl
been sworn, was recalled, and was examined and testified fur
ther as follows:
DIRECT.' EXAMINATION - Recalled
m MR. WALKER*
Q You are familiar with the Model Cities Program of th k
City of Little Rock or at least the application, of the city of
Little Rock?
A I know that an application has been made, yes#
Q 1 s@e. Do you knew whet the area is that that Model
Cities Program application purports to deal with?
A 1 will ©ay in general it * a generally east of Main
street and north, say, of 14th street.
q And would that area bo predominantly Negro in terms
of the racial characteristics of the neighborhood?
A 1 think so. There is a considerable amount of white
residential area, but it is predominantly Negro, I believe.
q All right®
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I would like to have intro
duced, not the full Model Cities Program application that was
prepared by the City of Little Rock, but excerpts from that.
1 have given a copy to Mr. Friday and it sets forth the doscri
tion and the identification of the kinds of neighborhood that
it is, and the kind of characteristics of the schools and cthe
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77 3
general information that the City has represented to the Cover
leant in support of its application for the Modal Cities Progra
HR* FRIDAY: Your Honor, I am not clear on the exact
Issue. For the record, it was handed to me seconds ago. 1
have not seen it. I am aware that cities are prone to do a
little selling in these applications. X*m not prena to keep
things oat of the record, I just don't know.
What issue are you trying to show?
MR. WALKER* 1 am trying to show there are concentra
tions of lower socio-economic areas that the city itself has
recognised and sought; to attack through a comprehensive progra
through governmental agencies in trying to meet the problems,
such as the Housing Authority and the City Education Board.
THE COURT* We have to have soma kind of limits in
these cases. That8s too far afield.
HR. WALKER* The pertinent section I want to have is
their description of certain difficulties in the schools with!
the area.
THE COURT: Let Mr. Friday have a chance to read it
and then we can ratio on it later. 1 will reserve ruling.
MR. WALKER: All right. Your Honor. I would like
Your Honor to have a copy.
THE COURT: Let's give it a number.
MR. WALKER: This would be Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 5
for identification
774
(The document heretofore referral
to was marked Plaintiff's Exhibi
Ho. 5 for identification.)
THE COURTS V?a want to move a little faster, now, Mr.
Walker. This case has been fully developed, and I think we ars
ranging far afield ors it,
MRa HALKKRs All right, Your Honor.
t
BY MRo WALKKR»
q X4r. Meeks, just one or two other questions about the
matter of private discrimination* Ar« you aware of the fact
that whan a Negro family moved into the Broadmoor Subdivision,
which is west of University, there was considerable opposition
to that move?
h i couldn't classify ifc as community opposition. I
know there was discussion about it.
G Do you recall there was a bottle or something thrown
through the window of the home?
THE COURTS That is enough of that.
Mil. w a l k e r * Your Honor, I am trying to —
THE COURTS That is enough of that. We are trying to
talk about school integration here.
MR. WALKER * Your Honor, I think we want to have
stated for the record that wo believe that private discrimina
tion exists in the City of Little Rock, that the School District
has been fully aware of these facts, and that it has an affirsa-
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775
tiva obligation to taka them into consideration and to dis
establish school patterns which result in them*
TEE COURT j Are you through with this witness?
MR* FRIDAY: Yes* with just two or three questions,
Your Honor.
CROSS EXAMIHATIOM
BY MR. FRIDAY:
q Mr. Meeks, X have handed you a document marked at
the top “Census Tract, Little Rock-North Little Rock SKSA"
marked for identification as Defendant's Exhibit 25, and ask
you if you can tell me what that is, please, sir?
& it's a diagnosis of the greater Little Rock area
drawn by the Census Bureau, and tit© map they used in taking
the census*,
q Does it show — do the additional pages show the
racial composition of the various area designated on this trac-
h Yes, sir, it does.
MR. FRIDAYS Your Honor, I offer this just so the
record will be complete as Defendant's Exhibit 29.
THE COURT: What significance does it have?
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, it relates to identify each
area as to the official census records in 'GO and *64 of the
racial composition. It can be used fer two or thro© purposes.
It largely duplicates the exact figures on populatic
but deals in population rather than students, and you can role
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to th© voting, for example;, on the Parsons Plan and tell hew
each area voted on it, 11 © other real purpose* Your Honor. If
Just gets the figures in on it.
THE COURTS All right, it will be received.
(The document heretofore referred
to was marked Defendant's Exhibh
Ho. 29 for identification, and
was received in evidence.)
BY MR* FRIDAY*
Q Mr. Meeks, there was testimony earlier concerning
construction since 1961 and perhaps testified frost memory, and
since it is in the record, in an effort to get dates correct,
have you at my request had the School Board Office work up a
chart showing school sites purchased and schools built since
1961, so that we have exact dates?
h Yes, sir, along with class si?;® and the members of
the Board of Directors at the time the cites were purchased.
Q All right. 1 will hand you this chart, and its marks. •
for identification as Defendant's Exhibit 30.
h Yes, sir.
MR. FRIDAY * Your Honor, I offer this as Defendant's
Exhibit; 30.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(The document heretofore referred
to was marked Defendant's Exhifci
777
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1 Ho, 30 for idemfcification, and
was received in evidence.}
BY MR. FRIDAY s
Q Just two or three more questions, Mr. Meeks, about
the newspaper ad situation.
Bo you know the source of the handling of newspaper
ads? Xf you do know, say so? and if you don’t, as depicted on
the exhibits introduced b y Mr. Walker ~-
h Do you moan Who put them in?
Q Do you know how they cams to have that type listing?
Did tli© newspaper do it, or did you do it, or the person who
turned it in?
A The individual listing or the names under which Individ*
ual was listed was carried by tho newspaper.
Q did the newspaper decide how it would be listed,
or did th® person that turned it in say "I want you to list it
so, and so for such a heading”?
A The person that turned it in specified under which
heading th© ad would go.
q Would that be for commercial purposes, do you know?
A lb could have been.
Q Bo you know whether all property turned in that happsnt
to be owned by a Negro was always listed under Negro? Do you •
know if this is so or not?
A I'm not sure it was — I'm sure it was not always
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listed that way.
Q All right. Based on your experience in the real
estate business, Mr. Keeks, has the population in Little Rock
been mobile, highly mobile or fairly mobile?
h I think the population c£ Little Rock is fairly mobi L<
The Oregon Report, I believe on page 39, indicates that between
1955 and I960, roughly 25 per cent of the white population did
not live in that house in 1955 that lived in it in 1960 and
about eleven per cent of the non-white population did not live
in the same in *60 that it did in *55.
Q Mat to repeat but for the record, have there been anj?
significant developments that might affect school population
insofar as trends are concerned, and specifically I refer to
the patterns of construction, apartments and so forth?
A mil, I think there have been in two directions. Th
increased population within the metropolitan area of the City
of Little Rock hasn't been discussed, and I think it has a ver(
definite bearing on tbs whole situation. For instance, in 194 3
the District had 13,000 students in some twenty-seven schools.
ht this time we have sora© 25,000 students in 44 schools. Ob
viously, with the increase in population, they could not all
go to those schools that were in existence in 1948 when Univer
sity or South Hayes were gravel streets. Th® schools that are
west of University, cf course, have been built since 1940, but
with the increase in population, people had to live somewhere.
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and they couldn't nil build in what wo have specified or what
has been specified hero as the central Little Rock ares. There
has been to some extent what I tlvink is a misunderstanding as
to what is considered the central area* The center of the
Little Rock School District, both geographically and populate
wise is Markham and Elia Streets, approximately near the Medic;
Center®
Q Well, have there been any significant developments -
and I believe you have covered University Park eo don't repeat
that — in the west end that might affect population that went
affect school attendance insofar &s integration is concerned
h Yes, 2 think the coming installation of the trunk
line sower out in the southwest part of Little Rock west of
the existing John Barrow Addition, that, would probably be a
rapidly developing area of the City of Little Rock.
q would it be a racially mixed neighborhood?
h Yes. hfc least if existing trends continue. The idi
of intergrated housing in Little Rock is not something that in
going to be don® one here and one there. It will be, as it
has been heretofore, that where the areas where Negroes do
move into expand, for instance, in the area around Stephens
School and immediately east of the Med Center, those areas
have continued to build up, as has Joan Barrow.
Q John Barrow is in the Parkview Zone. Where is Univ$
city Park?
700
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la Hall Hi (jit School stone•
MR. FRIDAYS That's all I have,
Ho more questions, Mr. Reeks.
TEE COURT: You may step down.
MS. KALKEllt Mr. Patterson.
(Witness excused,)
Thereupon,
T. E. PATTERSON
having' "been called as a witness "by counsel for plaintiffs and
having been first duly sworn, examined and testified as follow
DIRECT EXAMXHATXGR
■ 51
12 BY MR. WALKER*
q Yon are Mr. T. E. Patterson, a member of the Board
of Directors of the Little Rock School District, ie that right
h Yes, sir, that's right.
Q Mr. Patterson, did you vote for the present assign
ment plan, which is Exhibit 22?
Iv Ho, I did not.
Q Would you state your reasons why you did not, Mr.
Patterson?
THE COURT: Please speak louder, Mr. Patterson.
THE WITNESSs Well, I will give you some of my reasons
First, 1 think the plan so developed was not developed
in harmony with the policy that the School Board directed the
plan to foe made in that the administration was directed to corao
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781
up with a plan, which it did, and this plan was developed, not
cm the initiative c£ the school administration but several or
the school board m&ioLars directed the administration to develop
a plan strictly with residential zoning, of course, they zoned
out the little gerrymandering in the previous plan to eliminate
substantial intergrat ion of Hall High School and a little gerry
mandering here that took away some of the students from Centra;.
High School. 1 feel that gerrymandering for segregation is
just about m permissible as gerrymandering for integration,
so I couldn't buy the philosophy of strict residential zoning
that eliminated Negroes in the Hall High area.
Q Mr. Patterson, do you have a view as to whether this
particular would contribute to the neighborhood stability of
the communities in the eastern and the central Little Rock —
let me tell you specifically what X have in mind. The sifcuatio
with regard to Mitchell School, for instance, do you think tha:
this kind of integration plan will contribute to the neighbor -
hood stability?
A Mo®
q h o w does the plan which has been proposed differ from
the plan that has actually been followed with regard to the
area around Mitchell School?
THE COURTi I don’t understand that question.
THE WITNESS: I don’t think 1 can answer it.
BY MR. WALKER s
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Let me make it let raft put it in a different form.
Has the Board discussed the fact that as white pup H e
reach a certain percentage of the population in a given school
that a tilt point develops and white pupils tend to find ways
to get out of that school?
A Mot in that context.
Q Taa Board has not actually discussed this?
A R?o«
Q With regard to Parkview School, Mr. Patterson, were
you on the Board when the decision was made to construct that
school?
A Yes.
Q Was that school initially conceived as a high school'.
A 1*11 have to say yes to that. Initially conceived.
that would be somebody's thinking.
0 I ee®» Has the Board *— what was the Board's action
with regard to whether or not it would fee a high school?
A The- Board decided it. would be just a school.
G Just a school, so that no particular decision was
made to cause it to be a high school at the time the contract
was let?
A Bo.
Q With regard to the University Park area, Mr. Patters<
1 think you have purchased a lot in that area?
h Y & &
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1 0 What — do you know presently what the racial compos
tion of families who now live in that area is?
A I — well, 1 think at this point about fifty-fifty,
hut wa have to admit there is continuous building.
Q Do you knew whether there ar© any other — would you
know whether there are any mere than a 1st families living there
L-
presenfc?
A The last time X wa® out there, I don’t think it was.
q whafc do you know about the economic ability of Heoro
I rsean from what you know of economic; ability of Kegroea in th
City of Little Rock, would you say that it would be likely tha
large numbers of Degrees will purchase lots in the subdivision
known as University Park?
A SOo
q what is tli® minimum price of a lot in that subdivi
sion, to your knowledge?
A $3200, I think.
q would the sa m e b e t r u e of o t h e r subdivisions west of
U n i v e r s i t y Avenue, to your k n o w le d g e , t h a t i s , would K e g -ro e s
be in m uch the s a m e situation with r e g a r d t o t h e i r economic
a b i l i t y t o p u r c h a s e lota which a r e In t h e western p a r t of the
City?
h Yes.
q One final question, Hr. Patterson. Do you know whe
or not large numbers of pupils are transported to school each
a t
■ 3 ~
t u«
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•Say in the City of tittle Rock, either by public transportation
or toy private transportation?
THE COURTi You mean by city bus or car pools?
BY MR, ti&LKERs
Q By city bus or car pools?
A O li, y e s . Yes®
MR, WALKERs Mo more questiona,
CROSS KXttSXn&TZOH
by mr. licet e
Q Mr, Patterson, did .X correctly understand that you
supported Mr, Parsons * proposal or ideas that’s bean described
here submitted toy the Board members cm October 10th, which
included some gerrymandering to bring approximately eighty
additional Negro students into Hall High School?
h That’s right.
q Mid X believe you seconded the motion Mr. Drummond
made to adopt that at the meeting on November 15th.
A That’s right.
0 The financial resources ~ and I won't go into this
in detail «— the financial resources of the Little Rock School
District are rather limited with regard to the operating funds
available this year, ar® they not — let nm withdraw that
question. That was an awkwardly framed question.
The testimony has been given here that we are operat
ing off of last year’s income, in that sort of situation, and
785
fees
I believe there is budgeted only a $40,000 surplus this year,
is that correct?
A That's right.
Q within the framework of the existing financial resou
of the District, arc you in agreement and have you been since
you considered this natter since August, last August, been in
agreement that ths District is limited to a geographic zoning
system with regard to any plan it would present to comply with
the Court's order, one that does not provide transportation
for students?
h Ho, I ’ta not.
Q 1 will, ask you if the District has available any funis
to provide a large-scale transportation system at this t.iru«a?
?
A when you say “funds**, there are setae we have and soc^
we can get® If you take them’ collectively, it will be one thifig.
But roy reason is that the system provided transportation out
of its operation funds for segregation. When intergrafcion
started, they cut it all out voluntarily. I feel they are ob!|L
gated to put back the same raonsy.
q Th& transportation that the District provided in the
past was on a limited scale, was it not, compared to any scale
that would be directed to achieve racial balance in the schools?
A I have heard only one proposal and that, of course,
wa® in tli© Oregon Report, which was a large amount.
Q Right.
786
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1 h I think in the Parsons Plan, it started at a minimum
amount not exceeding the minimum amount already put in trans
portation*
Q How much would have beers put into transportation?
A I think it was 47 thousand — I Jumped the gun. I
thought, you ware going to say Re * Parsons8 plan.
Q 1 have reference to when it was employed, last, provi
by the District® Do you knew?
aed
A 1 think $50,000.
Q Do you know how many student® were transported?
A Ho, I wasn't on the Board at the time,
Q Bo you really know this, or do you have this from
your recollection of things you have heard?
h well, ,X*ta going — 2 once, saw in the budget before
where it was in the neighborhood of this amount.
MR. LIGHTI Thank you.
THE COURTS You may step down.
(Witness excused.)
MR. WALKERs Your Honor, I had hoped through Mrs.
Spradlin, who had some function in the matter of keeping up
with pupil personnel figures, to prove or at least to show that
the City bus system passes out to the city School District
approximately 21,000 identification cards each year or some
number, and that these 2.D. cards enable pupils in the Little
Rock school system, who have them to get cut-rate prices whoa
787
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1
a r s
aer.
they uzb the buseu, and we wanted to show further that the city
School District has money available which it uses presently to
qualify them for Public Law 89-10 funds end that, in fact, a
large number of pupils who attend schools in the target area
are in fact bused to school with money provided by the Little
Rock School District®
Since Mrs, Spradlin is not here — ~ I thought she
would still be here -»** I would like to ask that the Court give
mo an opportunity to, in ten minutes, when Dr* Goldhasnmor sppe
to present this evidence®
TIIE COURT2 Vie have not talked yet about Dr, Goldhas
m . WALKER* Yes, Your Honor, What I*a saying is
that we would like to reserve the right to have that evidence
put in when it is available under the assumption that it will
bo available reasonably soon.
THE COURT-* Well, we will talk about that later.
MR, WALKER £ I would like to call Mr. Parsons back
fee set out and explain some figures which appear in the Paraonjs
Plan, which sets m\t money over and above certain bond issues
which remain unexpended.
THE COURTs That report is that?
MB.. WALKER t That’s the Parsons Plan, his report, Ydur
Honor,
THE COURT* Y o u m e a n t h i s d o c u m e n t ?
HR. WALKERs That is the Oregon Report, I think, YoUr
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788
Honor«
THE COURT? I'o, this is the Parsons Plan.
Cone around, Mr. Parsons, and wa will see how ws arc
going. We are going to quit pretty soon and we will be pretty
■well through with it.
He doesn't have a copy of his report, Mr. Walker*
Thereupon,
FLOYD Tv. PARSOSIS
having previously boon called as a witness and. having previous
been duly sworn, was recalled and was examined and testified
further as follows?
A cro ss e x a m x h a t x o n - Recalled
BY MR. WALKERS
Q Mr. Parsons, I will share this copy with you.
Mr. Parsons, isn't it true that at present a large
number of pupils, to your knowledge, a large number of pupils
get to and from the various schools in the Little Rock School
District by public transportation provided at their own expens}:
A X would assume this, but X do not know it.
Q You would assume that?
A Yes.
Q Isn't it true that there arc a large number of perset
who contract with the Houston-Bigelew and Twin-City Transit
Company to provide bus transportation for tiioir pupils to vari
schools in the City?
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h 1 am actually not aware of title occurring. There
is little doubt that it does, but when you say a “large numberJ
I do. not know whether w© are talking about thirty people or
5 0 0.
Q Isn't it true that large numbers of pupils who live
in the western part of the City, a good distance from schools,
provide their own transportation to those schools?
A I think there is no doubt but what this is true, yes,
Q that, I'm trying to establish is that not very many
pupils now walk to McDermott School, which io on Reservoir Rea 1
A 1 really do not know.
Q In which area do you live?
A I live in Leawood Heights.
0 Close to Brady?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether very many youngsters actually
walk to Brady„ or are they transported by their parents?
A 1 actually do not know this.
Q Abo on your staff would knew that, Mr. Parsons?
A I'm not sure that anyone at the administrative levs!
would know for sure. The principals would know.
Let me explain that I see cars every day on the stre:
with children in them, and there is no doubt that these are
parents taking the children to school. I also see children
walking in front of my house walking to Brady.
760
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7 9 0
Q So you have not beer; in a position to make a precise
estimate of the number of pupils who would actually need trans
portation if you adopted a different kind of a zoning plain or
a plan which required transportation?
A The only basis on which such facts of exact numbers
could be determined would be to relate the distance of the
building to the home of the individual pupil, if indeed we had
a policy that any pupil would be transported who resided more
than two miles from the school he attended,
q All right, then, I notice that in your Parsons Repo:
you stated that there was $185,000.00 available for conversion
at liana High School from the last bond issue, is that, correct?
A 1 assume that it is.
0 Is that money still available?
A I would have to go to the record to find out. I do
not know*
Q All r i g h t then, Mr. Parsons. X notice also t h a t rega
to M e t r o p o l i t a n High School, y o u s t a t e d in y o u r r e p o r t t h a t
$ 2 0 0 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 was a v a i l a b l e f r o m t h e l a s t b o n d issue. I s t h a t
m o n e y s t i l l a v a i l a b l e ?
A A portion of this money is identifiably still avail
able «
TOS COURT; fir. walker, you don't have the idea, do
you, that unexpended money from capital construction from a
bond issue is available for transportation, do you?
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791
ME* WALKER* Your Honor, I think it has been stated
that money over and above the actual cost of capital improve
ments can bo used by the School District for general purposes.
THE COURT: I think Mr. Friday is the authority on
that matter. That's after paying each installment each year.
MR. FRIDAYr That refers to mill age. Your Honor, and
not to proceeds voted for it.
THE COURTs That's right, not the proceeds itself.
MR. I'MjKERt A H right.
BY MR. UALKERs
Q Mi at happens, Mr. Parsons, if you have money in exec:;
of the amount that comes in from bond issue for a specific pur
pose?
A May X assume you're talking about bond money?
Q Yes.
A Money that comes to the District through the sale of
bonds?
Q Yes.
A It remains in a bond account invested until such tins
as it is used for one of the several purposes for which it has
been voted.
Q What happens to the interest from that money?
A The interest from the money is placed into a buildinc
fund.
Q But cannot the interest on that money be used for
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7 9 2
non-capital purposes?
A For non-capital purposes, that's right.
Q How much money do you have now which is or has not
been used in your bend account?
A Very, very little, actually.
Q When you say "very little", do you include the
$200,000.00 or a portion thereof?
A A portion thereof, yes.
Q How much of that is available?
A Well, I would have to do some calculating and I cer
tainly wouldn't want to stand on the figures from memory, but
much of this money was used to repair the storm damage that
occurred on the Harm High School in the flooding in ths gymna
sium. A portion has been recovered through a Federal Grant bu
not all of it. A portion was allocated to the Booker trade
which was built for which the original allocation was insuffi
cient to meet the actual contract price of the track, and two
or three other minor items have been charged against the
$200,000.00 that was originally allocated for the repairing of
Harm and Metropolitan High Schools.
Q But the $185,000.00 from the Mann conversion is stil
available?
A I didn't say that. I do not know. I do not even
remember, actually. It was evidently available at that time.
Q Who in your administration would have the informatio
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793
as to hew much money is actually available now, not being used,
regardless of the purpose that you have —
TEE COURT? You can't get an intelligent answer when
you add that phrase "regardless of purpose".
MR. WALKERS A l l r i g h t .
BY MR. WALKER:
Q How much money is available from bond issue® that yoa
have not presently let contracts for?
A Mr. Walker, 1 do not know. Of course, if you ask whs
would have these figures, I have, but I do not remember these
figures and X don’t think you would really expect me to.
Q Isn’t it true that the voters voted money for the
construction of an elementary school on West 12th Street?
A That’s correct.
Q And isn’t it true that amount was at least a half
million dollars?
A Bot I think it was $400,000.00, to be exact.
q And that money has not been expended?
A Yes, sir*
Q And that money is now drawing interest?
A I ’m suro that it is.
Q And there are some other moneys in the same category,
isn’t that true?
A Yes, there are some other moneys.
q I ’m sure we are talking about considerably less than
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794
a million dollars, but thercs are moneys that, have accrued to
the District through bend issues that have not been committed
to projects in terms of signing contracts. Yes, there are
moneys.
HR. WALKER{ No more questions of Mr. Parsons.
MR. FRIDAYs I have nothing further.
THE COURT: You may step down.
(Witness excused.)
MR. WALKERs Mr. Fowler, please.
Thereupon,
HARRY FOWLER
having been called as a witness by counsel for plaintiff, and
having boon first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
followss
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER?
Q Mr. Fowler, you are Harry Fowler, the Assistant Supei
intendent in charge of Personnel for the City School District?
A Yes, I am.
q Mr. Fowler, would you tell the Court what part you
played in the preparation of the desegregation plan?
A Mr. Walker, it was my responsibility to work with the
percentages based on the number of students that wo found in
each of the zones on the area map.
Q Did you prepare several alternative plans at Mr
795
1 direction or at the Board’s direction?
2 A Several alternative plans?
3 Q Yes.
4 A No, 1 did not prepare alternative plans, Mr. Walker.
5 I dealt with different figures, different seta of figures, yes
6 Q Did you strive to arrive at more or less exact prop©
7 fcions of Negro and white teachers at the various grad© levels?
8 A Mr. Walker, that's the first thing wo had to do, won
9 with the various percentages® We had to figure the percentage
10 at three levels. Then we had to set percentages based on thou
11 three percentages.
12 Q 1 see.
13 Now, I noticed, Mr. Fowler, that the School District
14 has set forth that there will ba a minimum of 15 per cent of a
15 faculty Negro and a maximum of 45 per cent Negro, is that correct
16 A Yes.
17 Q I notice also that at the high school level for 1969-1-70,
18 Central, Hall, Metropolitan and Parkview Schools will have
13 roughly between 15 and 17 per cent of their faculties being
20 Negro?
21 h i don't recall the exact figures but that must be
22 correct* X haven’t seen it —-
23 Q This is Exhibit
24 THE courts He will accept your figures for discussion
25 MR. WALKER: All right.
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796
BY MR. WALKERz
Q And that at Horace Mann, 29 per cent of the faculty
would be Negro?
A Yes.
Q For 1969-70.
A Yes.
Q How do you explain why a formerly Negro school would
have a substantially higher percentage cf Negro teachers than
each of the formerly whits schools?
A Mr. Walker, I can only echo the words of Mr. Parsons
in his original testimony when he said this was done to lesson
the total impact.
Q Are you saying then it was because of the fact that
the teachers don * t want to do this?
A That may be one of the reasons, yes.
Q What are the other reasons, to your knowledge, Mr.
Fowler*
A Well, Mr. Walker, in my opinion, that's one of the
first reasons and perhaps the main reason.
q Do you know of' any other reasons?
A Ho.
Q Mr. Fowler, at the junior high school level, I notice
that the formerly white junior high schools range from between
19 to 22 per cent black faculty, whereas the formerly Negro
junior high schools are either 43 or 44 per cent black faculty.
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In other words, mors than two**to-one percentage-wise in the
Negro schools® Do you know the reason for that?
A Tho same .reason would be true all the way through,
Mr® Walker.
Q That would be true for the elementary schools, too?
A You.
Q Mr, Fowler, doe© this plan propose to deal with the
matter of assignments of principals?
A Ho®
Q So that under your plan, every formerly Negro school,
with the exception of the two that are now white principals,
would have black principals?
h Yes®
Q And every formerly white school which has a white
principal will continue to have white principals?
A Yes.
G Do you have —
h Mr. Walker, let rue make a statement here.
1 personally feel, and X think that it is the feelinc
of the administration, that it is extremely important that
principals be held where they are because, as we go into this
transition, someone must be there to serve as the administratis
head of the particular school that knows the schools find the
community, et cetera.
797
Q Mr. Fowler, is it true, though, that as of August 16
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or 17th# there were a number of vacancies in principal posit ic
that the School District went outside of itself and filled?
In other words, they brought several persons in from, say, the
Pulaski County District to fill vacancies in the white princi
pal ships?
A You prefaced by saying August 16th.
Q Up until August 16th, any principal's position in the
white schools that had come open, you either found white pars
from inside or outside the system to fill?
A No, that's not true. We placed one Negro principal
at the predominantly white school prior to August 16th,
Q But this was not announced until after the 16th of
August?
A I don't recall when it was announced, Mr. Walker.
Q What do you propose to do about this segregation wit
the coaching staff?
h We have not reached the point of making any decision
as to how this will be done, Mr. Walker.
Q So you don't have any specific plans for implementin
this other than coming up with some numbers?
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, we have gone over that. The
do not know which teachers will be assigned, is that right?
THE WITNESSs That's right.
BY MR. WALKERS
Q So what I'm driving at is that in view of the fact
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799
that white teachers and Negro teachers oppose this step,is
there any particular reason why you did not come within tho
roughly 82 to 18 ratio at the high school level, the 73*27
ratio at the junior high school level, or the 65-35 ratio at
the elementary level?
A I don’t know whether 2 understand your question, Mr,
Walker.
MS. WAX*KESs Your Honor, have I made it clear?
TEE COURTs Yes, X understand it, and you went over
it in detail with Mr. Parsons.
BY MR. WALKERi
Q You don't have — da you have an explanation, since
you're just -**
THE COURT* In other word a, why didn’t you hit the
exact figure, percentage-wise, in every school? I am simplify
lag his question.
THE WITNESSt X don't know whether I can answer it,
When you’re dealing with as many figures as you have in your
hand, you’ve got to make it work. In other words, you've got
to have a Negro move from one school and a white teacher to
put over here, and you have to play with the figures until you
get it to work. This takes a considerable length, of time and
a lot of work to get it to balance.
THE COURTs The actual practical application of ther
theories is not as simple as writing a brief, is what he is
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saying.
MR. WALKER2 I'm aware of that, Your Honor, but it,
seems a Negro school will now be able to be identified by the
fact that it has a higher percentage of Negro teachers than
the other schools —
THE COURT: Do yon have tiny further questions?
Ml. WALKER.* I have no more questions of this witness
(Witness excused.)
MR. WALKERs There was one thing I mentioned, Your
Honor, to Mr. Friday earlier that 1 would like to have intro
duced into tli® record, and that is the Metro Plan statement
of January, 1963, part of which I read.
THE COURTS You may introduce it as —
MR. WALKERS Plaintiff's Exhibit 6.
THE COURT? It is received.
(The document heretofore referred
to was marked Plaintiff's Bxhihi
Ho. 6 for identification, and vis
received in evidence.)
MR. FRIDAY% All of that — you showed me several
pages. Did they all coma out of the *63 report?
MR. WALKERs Yes.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, would it bo all right if I
looked up the '63 report, and if I want to put in a page or sc,
I will be permitted to do that?
♦CUE COURT: That will fees all right.
MR, WALKER% Your Honor« we have no objection to theiir
putting that in.
As it stands, Your Honor, we haves no other evidence
to offer.
Dr. Goldharanter * s testimony is incomplete. I would
think I would have five minutes with him to get his views on
the present plan and Mr. Light, as I understand it, would like
to cross examine Dr. Goldharamer. Our present plan is for Dr,
Goldhaaaaer to arrive Monday night at 3:15, and we would like
to request that the Court convene at about 8:00 o'clock Christinas
Eve to hear Dr* Goldhammer.
TKS COURT? I’m afraid that would inconvenience a
great many people, Mr. Walker.
MR. WALKER: We have checked with Dr. Goldhammer and
he could not get down this weekend, but he wanted to accommodate
the Court. I took the Court*s statement that —
THE COURT: I quite, often get her© at 8:00, but a
groat many other people do not.
MR. WALKER: The problem is that Dr. Goldhammer can
only get back to Oregon if he loaves at 11:50 that date.
THE COURTS How long do you think his testimony woul
take?
MR. WALKERs T h a t i s u p t o M r. L i g h t .
MR. L IG H T : I f M r. W a lk e r d o e s n o t e x t e n d h i s f u r th e ir
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direct examination past the five minutes he has just indicated -
I don't think 1 would require more than an hour or slightly
more than that for cross examination.
THE COURT? Will the defendants have any other testi
mony, or do they know?
Ml. FRIDAY; Your Honor, we don't think so, mad if
you tell me to complete right now, I will, but X might want
one short rebuttal witness, if that would bo all right.
THE COURT? They haven't completed their case. With
the exception of Dr. Gol&hamraer, you rest your case?
MR. WALKERS We would like to have either Mrs. Spradl
or the manager of the Twin-City Transit Company.
THE COURTS That they sell token tickets to children
at a cheaper price, is that right?
ME. WALKER s X want to show the number of pupils
presently who arc? basically transported to and from school by
bus.
THE COURT? How would they know? X tell you what.
You get a written statement of that and give it to Mr. Friday,
and you can put it in as an exhibit.
MR. WALKER: That will ha fine. Your Honor.
MR. FRIDAY: Fine.
MR. ROTBBBERRY: Your Honor, we also decided what
part of this Metro Flax's publication, the 1960 Comprehensive
Development Plan, that we wish to designate and make a part
802
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of the record. Do you wish to do that now?
MR. FRIDAYS I haven't seen your pages.
Your Honor, 1 put in some, and he can put in what lie
wants to.
TH2 COURTi All right, you may do that.
In order to accosasodate Dr. Goldhamiser — and I sym
pathize with his family problems which I have been advised of
we will adjourn and convene Tuesday at 8s30, and we will get
through Tuesday, hopefully by noon.
(Whereupon, at 4s 10 o'clock, p.ia., the above entitle
proceedings were recessed, to reconvene at 8s30 o'clock on the
morning of Tuesday, December 24, 1968.)
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804
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN DIVISION
— — - — - — - - - - x
DELORES CLARK, et al, :
Plaintiffs,
No. LR-64-C-155
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE :
LITTLE ROCK SCHOOL DISTRICT, et al, :
Defendants. :
U. S. Post Office and Courthou:
Little Rock, Arkansas
Tuesday, December 24, 1968
BE IT REMEMBERED, That the above-entitled matter
vias continued after adjournment from December 20, 1968, before
the Honorable GORDON E. YOUNG, United States District Judge,
commencing at 8:30 o'clock, a.m.
APPEARANCES:
On behalf of plaintiffs:
JOHN W. WALKER, Esq., and
BURL C. R0TEN3ERRY, Esq., of
Walker and Rotenberry,
1820 West Thirteenth Street,
Little Rock, Arkansas; and
PHILLIP KAPLAN, Esq., of
McMath, Leatherman, Woods & Youngdahl,
711 West Third Street,
Little Rock, Arkansas.
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805
On behalf of defendants:
HERSCHEL H. FRIDAY, JR., Esq.,
ROBERT V. LIGHT, Esq., and
JOE D. BELL, Esq., of
Smith, Williams, Friday & Bowen,
Boyle Bui Id in,q,
Little Rock, Arkansas.
<
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806
WITNESS
Dr. Keith Goldhammer
(Resumed)
Edwin Hawkins
Daniel H. Woods
DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
c o n t e n t s
807
870
877
824
871
883
868
EXHIBITS
For Identification In Evidence
Plaintiff's :
No. 5 888
No. 7 876 876
Defendant1s :
No. 31 877 877
Court Exhibit No. 1 874 874
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807
P R O C E E D I N G S
THE COURT; Gentlemen, is Dr. Goldhammer to take
the stand?
Doctor, how are you, sir?
He has already been sworn.
Thereupon,
DR. KEITH GOLDHAMMER
having previously been called as a witness on behalf of
plaintiffs, and having been previously duly sworn, was
examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Resumed
BY MR. WALKER:
Q You are Dr. Keith Goldhammer, who has testified
in the earlier phase of this case?
A Yes, sir.
Q Dr. Goldhammer, when you were employed by the
Little Rock School District to undertake a survey of the
desegregation problems facing this school district, did you
happen to have occasion to have discussions with the members
of the Board in re what they wanted you to do?
A Yes. We had several formal and informal discussi
\tfith the School Board and with the administration. I think
one of the discussions -- one of the first discussions that
we had with them, they wanted to explore what our concerns
or what our reaction might be to the general problems of the
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-- of desegregating a dual school system.
One of the questions that they put to us at that
time was can you develop a plan that will actually be a per
manent -- result in a permanent desegregation of the school
or a permanent development of a permanent unitary school
system.
The members of the School Board -- some of the mem
bers of the School Board expressed concern that in so many
communities where the racial composition approached somewhat
the proportions of Little Rock, the initial steps that -- the
desegregation of the schools resulted in a very rapid re
segregation with, of course, the problem that has resulted in
so many communities and particularly along the East Coast wher>
the effect of the desegregation is to produce a rapid move
ment of people out of the community into the surrounding
suburbs.
The charge which the Board made to us was to try to
develop a plan that would have have an effect, be in effect,
a means whereby Little Rock could be saved from becoming a
total Negro city such as has happened in Washington, D. C. and
New York and other large communities.
So that we were asked to come up with a plan that
would have a lasting effect and would in effect eliminate the
possibility of a very rapid resegregation. This is the point,
I think, that I made when I was here before of trying to hit
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the problem of what we call in education the "tipping point"
where the percentage of minority groups within a school system
rises to such a proportion that you have a rapid retreat of
the majority group from that particular school or neighborhood
Q Let me ask one or two other questions that I did
not before, Doctor.
Have you any experience as a school administrator?
THE COURT: A little louder, please, Mr. Walker.
THE WITNESS: Well, I am a school administrator. I
have some hundred faculty members who are responsible to me and
some 3,000 students enrolled in various degree programs. I
have been a superintendent of schools in the State of Oregon,
and over the years since 1954, \vrhen I completed my doctorate,
I have provided administrative programs for schools -- Tucson,
Arizona, Richmond, California, Medford, Oregon, Portland,
Oregon. I deal with school administrators and school problems
every day of my life. This is my profession.
Q Are youfemiliar with Mr. Eldon Stimbert?
A Yes, very well. He's the Superintendent of Schools
at Memphis.
Q Has he ever -- has he ever been in situation where
he received instruction or --
A He's never been in any of my classes formally. How
ever, we have been at many meetings and conferences together
where I have presented lectures and I have led discussions of
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810
which he has been a member, yes.
Q I see.
Now, have you had an opportunity to study the SchoO'
Board resolution and plan which I handed to you which was pre
pared or made on November 15, 1968?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is your opinion of that resolution?
A Well, when I received --
THE COURT: You mean the resolution or the plan whit
i t sets forth? Not the resolution itself.
MR. WALKER: The resolution and the plan it sets
forth, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: When I received the plan of couple of
weeks ago, I had an immediate concern as to whether or not it
met the criteria which His Honor suggested at the conclusion
of the hearing in August, and so I re-studied the plan in rela
tionship to my review of the statement which the Court made in
August.
MR. LIGHT: Your Honor, I am going to object. He's
here to testify as an expert in the educational field and not
as an attorney.
THE COURT: Well, I don't know just where he is goir
Mr. Light. Let's proceed.
THE WITNESS: From the standpoint of the educational
concern that I would have, the basic criterion was that there
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a n
be neither Negro schools nor white schools but just schools.
And then there were certain other criteria which related to
this primary concern.
Now, as far as faculty desegregation is concerned,
the resolution or the plan submitted in the resolution, it seeiru
to me, to be an approach to the accomplishment of the ends
that were indicated as desirable by the Court. It does not do
the entire job, but I would say that if it is followed by
action that would relieve any inequities that were left to
exist, that within a relatively short time, complete faculty
desegregation could be achieved.
As long as you're going to move some two hundred
teachers, however, I would rather do the job all at once than
do it piecemeal. But I would have to say that the plan is an
approach and could be conceived to be a satisfactory approach
to faculty desegregation.
I would refer specifically to the fact that the
largest percentage of Negro teachers still remains in what
were formerly considered to be the Negro schools, and this woul<
be my primary objection to it.
The second concern that I had was what would this
mean as far as the desegregation of pupils was concerned; and
in viewing this plan in relationship to this map, which I
assume is an exhibit
Q Exhibit 22.
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812
A -- that goes along with the plan, I was concerned
because the heart and core of a unitary school system has to
be the placement of pupils, not the placement of faculty. And
in this instance, I am very much concerned that we have again
with the composition of the population in Little Rock, somewhat
of a freezing in of the present dual school system, with the
possibility in the central part of the city, as Negroes -- as
the Negro population increases in that section, you’ll have
again the problem that the School Board had originally hoped
to avoid, namely, the retreat of the white population to the
western suburbs and the resegregation of the central core of
the city.
So my concern there is that as far as pupils are
concerned, this is very -- whatever progress is made toward
elimination of the dual school system is a temporary gain, and
sociologically, it appears to me that it would be followed
very rapidly with the resegregation of the community.
My third point is that on the basis of our study of
the faculty, we would be concerned about any plan that did not
incorporate within it a high concentration of concern upon the
in-service education of the teachers.
THE COURT: I didn’t understand that, Doctor.
THE WITNESS: Any plan that did not involve an in-
service training program for teachers while they are on the
j °b.
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D I R E C T - G o l d h a m m e r 813
THE COURT: What do you mean by that, Doctor?
THE WITNESS: A program that would give them the
technical instructions that they need in order to deal effec
tively with the changed composition of their classes.
THE COURT: You're talking about both groups of
classes?
THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. Yes, both the Negro and the
white.
And the reason for this is that you have different
types of educational situations with which the teachers must
now deal; and to make the plan operative in effect as well as
just by the additions of numbers in classrooms, I think you
have to have teachers who are skilled in dealing with the kind:
of problems that arise as the result of bringing the children
from the diverse backgrounds together, prepared to do the kind
of individualized and small group instruction that will, in
effect, make the educational situation successful.
I am also -- I'm not sure this was or that this is
in reply to your question. Let me offer it -- I am also con
cerned because one of the -- I think Mr. Parsons originally,
in his reaction to the proposal that we had made to the School
Board, put his finger on one of the weaknesses of our plan as
far as the practical implementation of our plan was concerned.
And this was --we were possibly too idealistic in
that we looked too far into the future, and he still had to be
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DIRECT - Goldhammer 814
concerned with what to do Monday morning, what do I do next
year?
And so he suggested, as I recall, that as long as
the boundaries between school units ran north and south, you
could not have the type of unitary school program that you
could have if you ran your boundaries east and west. So, as
I recall Mr. Parsons' plan, he suggested drawing boundaries ea:>
and west so that the attendance units of the school were define
to cut across the segregated housing patterns of the community
THE COURT: We're talking about high schools, junior
high schools --
THE WITNESS: This was senior high schools and, of
course, the feeder school plans then would fall into a similar
type of pattern.
Well, my concern here in this plan of November 15th
of this year is that this goes back to the same kind of an
administrative plan for the assignment of pupils to which Mr.
Parsons was reacting when he proposed the establishment of the
east-west boundaries.
I feel that as far as accomplishing the purposes of
creating a unitary school system, his concept of the east-west
boundaries was a much more permanent solution that this.
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Doctor, there has been testimony to the effect that,
the lack of integration at Hall High School is educationally
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DIRECT - Goldhammer 815
undesirable. Do you agree with that opinion stated by M r .
Parsons and, if so, would you state your reasons?
A That the Jack of integration at Hall High School is
educationally undesirable?
Q Y e s .
A Oh, yes. I --
Q Let me ask then what effect does this undesirable si
ation have upon the ability of the school district to provide
equality of opportunity in the other schools within the
district?
A I think you have to look at the school system as a
whole. Ideally, from an educational point of view and sociolog
cal point of view, we would want each school to be somewhat of
a small mirror of the community, a microcosm of the total com
munity; and our concern would be to help the children grow and
become socially efficient and effective individuals in a social
system -- the school -- that resembles the community in which
they will live as adults.
The problem cannot be solved by having a partial
solution in the community, having some schools remain segregate
and other schools remain integrated or become integrated. For
instance, you have -- what -- 1500 Negro senior high pupils in
Little Rock. If you have a thousand in one school, then you
have only five hundred to distribute between, say, one or two
other schools, if you have three high schools. Obviously, then
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D I R E C T - G o l d h a m m e r 816
one high school is over-entolled with Negro students while
other schools have a lower than what you could consider an ade
quate number of students to maintain the concept of a unitary
school system.
Nov;, the more extremes these differences in enroll
ment are, then the more difficult it becomes to establish the
school as a mirror of the community; the more difficult it is
£o the students, even within the large school to maintain their
self-image, their ability to deal effectively with their peers
in the majority group.
So my concern here would be that wherever you get
the pattern out of balance, you create an over-enrollment of a
minority group in one segment and an under-enrollment in anothe
segment. You are going to create the same kinds of problems
to which we educationally have been reacting against for some
time.
Q Is there, with regard to the specific Hall High
situation anything from an educational standpoint, undesirable
about the fact that you have only three Negro students out of
the broad plan of some 1400?
A Oh, yes, those Negro youngsters are undoubtedly
isolated. They do not have sufficient number of their own
group which will reinforce them in their racial relationship
or educational relationship. Some of them may, by paiticular
aptitudes, achieve prominence, but this is because of the ways
in which they excel and without that they would be very much
lost in a crowd.
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D I R E C T - Cold-hammer 617
I have not studied this aspect particularly at Hall
High School. I have in other places. You see a small group
o£ Negroes eating by themselves, not getting or being able to
get into the mainstream of student activities, and so forth.
It takes a tremendous amount of work on the part of some other
students in the school to get those students to -- to get those
students deeply involved in the total life of the school.
We have a sociological term which we call "reference
group theory", and in reference group theory, what we mean is
that the youngsters or any group will have to have a stable
base of their own group, people who are like-minded, as a basis
of being able to deal realistically and stably with the prob
lems that confront them.
Q Looking at Exhibit 22 there, you see the area in the
gree, which is the Parkview School area?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you and your team surveyed the Little Rock
Public Schools, did you find a need at that time for the con
struction of a new senior high school for grades ten, eleven
and twelve?
A No. There was a need for additional secondary
school facilities, and the Board consulted us before they
accepted bids on the Parkview School, and our concern was the
very serious overcrowding coupled with obsolescence had affectc
the junior high schools, and we agreed that Parkview ought to
be built because of the inadequacies and deficiencies that
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D I R E C T - G o l d h a m m e r
existed.
As I recall, the resolution of the Board was that
this be built as a secondary school facil. ty, and the idea was
that it would house probably grades eight-nine or eight, nine,
ten, something like that, to relieve the situation that existed
at that time.
Q Do you recall what the situation with regard to need
for another high school was at that particular time?
A Well, Hall High Schoo, of course, was overcrowded,
as I recall, at that time; and Central High School was about at
its capacity; but Mann High School was under-utilized, as I
recall.
Q I see.
Now, have you had an opportunity to compare the
Parsons Plan that was submitted subsequent to the defeat of yov
proposal, with the plan which has been submitted to the Court
by the present School Board?
A Not in great detail. I have done this on the basis
ofmy memory of the Parsons Plan and, of course, my feeling was
that the Parsons Plan was a good, substantial proposal for
effecting a unitary school system over a period of time.
I would say that it was --it would accomplish the
objectives of establishing a unitary school system to a much
higher degree and with more certainty that this would be a per
manent solution than the plan submitted under the resolution o t
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D I R E C T - G o l d h a m m e r
of November 15th.
Q I see. Are there, in your judgment., readily avail
able, feasible alternatives to this present plan for dis-estab
lishing the present dual school system?
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, I'm sorry. I didn't hear
you. Please speak up.
BY MR. WAKER:
Q Are there readily available, feasible alternative
plans to the present plan for dis-establishing the pre-existing
dual school pattern?
A Why, yes. You have three plans that I have seen,
all of which I would say are superior to the plan submitted
under this resolution of November 15. The three plans are,
in all modesty, our plan, Mr. Parsons' plan, and the plan which
I believe became known as the Walker plan, is that correct, or
the plan that was submitted as a modification of our and Mr.
Parsons' plan.
Q I see. There has been some testimony, Dr. Goldhammi
to the effect that costs-- the cost of implementing those three
plans -- are prohibitive. Would you state what, in your judg
ment, either of those plans or all three of those plans could
be implemented for?
A You mean --
Q What the cost elements within those plans are and
whether or not in your judgment this School District, from yout
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D I R E C T - G o l d h a m m e r 820
study of its financial base, has the means to implement either
of those plans?
A That's a little bit difficult without particular
study of the financial situation.
Our plan, of course, involved a considerable amount
of school construction. I believe it was estimated at $10
million at the time and it's probably more now. As I indicated
before, we would recommend that construction, regardless of the
concern of the School District for developing any unitary
plan because the buildings are obsolescent and, as the communi :
can, they should be replaced with new modern educational plant:;
From that standpoint, you can't assess that cost
to the cost of developing a unitary school system. However,
our plan was dependent to a considerabl extent upon that con
struction being done, so our plan would be quite expensive,
and there would probably be more busing involved in our plan th
in others.
I believe probably the least expensive, because it
did not envisage any immediate construction, was the last of
the three plans that I believe was submitted by you on behalf
of your clients. That plan would involve a program of busin,
as would the Parsons Plan, if we were to provide the means for
\dren of low income families getting to the proper school.
I forget what our estimates were on that, but I
would imagine that there would be an expenditure annually of,
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D I R E C T - G o l d h a m m e r 621
oh, three or four hundred thousand dollars. I don't know just
exactly.
Arkansas has a rather generous state allocation for
transportation. At least half of it would, of course, come
from the state for transportation.
In my judgment as an administrator, I would say
that if this has high priority, moneys could be diverted from
other purposes in order to accomplish this end. In my small
organization, we have a budget only of about a million dollars
We have taken money from other training programs to put it into
the development of vocational educational programs because of
the fact that there is a tremendous urgency in our state for
augmenting the vocational preparation programs.
We consider this to be a priority. Some people in
my organization who were adversely affected by this transfer
don't love me for it -- they probably didn't love me beforehanp
anyway -- but to meet the urgency of the situation, we took
money that was established in the budget and diverted it
towards this new program.
I think you could do the same in any public budget,
if you feel that the urgency has sufficient priority to be
worthy of it. Maintenance money, supply money, textbook
money might be diverted to this purpose temporarily until a
more satisfactory pattern and budget could be established.
Q Dr. Goldhammer, have you had an opportunity to revi ;
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D I R E C T - G o l d h a m m e r 822
the Beta Complex as it was conceived in the Parsons Report?
A Not since August, and so it's not terribly fresh in
my mind.
Q May I refresh your memory? The Beta Complex was
Mr. Parsons' idea for dealing with these five elementary schoo:.
Garland, Oakhurst, Franklin, Lee and Stephens. It was basical.,
a pairing arrangement.
Do you have an opinion as to what the effect would
be on the total desegregation approach of the District if that
particular plan were carved out?
A If my memory is correct, this would still not deal
with the problem adequately on the east or the west sides of
town.
Q Why is that, Dr. Goldhammer?
A Well, because you still will have the concentration
of the white youngsters on the west side of town and the Negro
youngsters on the eastern side of town. My concern would be,
again, that in order to handle the problem on a permanent basi;
you have to deal with the total community, the total school
district.
Here, again, if you have a concentration of Negro
students, say, approaching thirty per cent, in thio area of
the community; and you have less than ten per cent in the west-
end of the community -- I'm not sure these are the figures.
I’m using this just as an illustration -- then very rapidly
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DI RECT - G o ldhaminer 823
y o u r N e g r o p o p u l a t i o n in the c e n t r a l s e c t i o n of the t o w n vvill
i n c r e a s e to the p o i n t w h e r e the w h i t e f a m i l i e s w i l l r e t r e a t as
t h e r e is an i n c r e a s i n g i n v a s i o n of N e g r o f a m i l i e s , a n d y o u w i l l
h a v e r e s e g r e g a t e d that s e c t i o n of the c o m m u n i t y .
Q Let me ask y o u one f i n a l q u e s t i o n . H a v e y o u h a d --
h o w w o u l d y o u e v a l u a t e the s u p e r i n t e n d e n t ’s o f f e r i n g d i f f e r i n g
p l a n s to d i f f e r i n g b o a r d s of e d u c a t i o n or b o a r d s of e d u c a t i o n
d i f f e r e n t l y c o n s t i t u t e d in terms of his r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n
h i s p o w e r s t r u c t u r e , the s c h o o l b o a r d ?
T H E COURT: Y o u r * r e n o t clear, Mr. W a l k e r .
BY MR. W A L K E R :
Q H o w w o u l d y o u e v a l u a t e Mr. P a r s o n s ' d i f f e r i n g p l a n s
in terms of the r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n him, as a p r o f e s s i o n a l
e d u c a t o r , and the s c h o o l b o a r d ?
A M a y I e v a l u a t e m y s e l f as an a d m i n i s t r a t o r ? I h a v e
n o p r o p r i e t a r y i n t e r e s t in the s c h o o l w h i c h I a d m i n i s t e r . I an
h i r e d b y the S t a t e B o a r d of H i g h e r E d u c a t i o n . I am d e p e n d e n t
for m y j o b on the S t a t e B o a r d of H i g h e r E d u c a t i o n .
If t h e y tell m e to s c r a p v o c a t i o n a l e d u c a t i o n , I
e i t h e r s c r a p m y p r o g r a m in v o c a t i o n a l e d u c a t i o n or g e t out. I -
is just t h a t simple. I h a v e a c o n t r a c t that t h e y w o u l d p r o b a b .
h a v e to p a y me off, b u t n e v e r t h e l e s s , I am t h e i r man.
Now, the Superintendent is in the same position.
No s u p e r i n t e n d e n t can go a b o u t d e v e l o p i n g w h a t he p e r c e i v e s to
be, p u r e l y on the b a s i s of e d u c a t i o n a l v a l u e s , the c o r r e c t
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D I R E C T - G o l d h a m m e r 824
p r o c e d u r e or the c o r r e c t p r o g r a m or the c o r r e c t p l a n of action,
He has to r e c e i v e his i n s t r u c t i o n s f r o m the b o a r d t h a t h i r e s
h i m a n d h a s the p o w e r to fire him.
I p r e s u m e y o u w a n t me to a d d r e s s m y s e l f to the
q u e s t i o n w h y is this p l a n d i f f e r e n t from the p l a n t h a t Mr.
P a r s o n s s u b m i t t e d a y e a r ago, and --
T H E COURT: W e l l , do y o u k n o w why, D o c t o r ?
T H E W I T N E S S : W e l l , I do not k n o w e x a c t l y why, but
all I ca n say is t h a t the S u p e r i n t e n d e n t of S c h o o l s has to
f o l l o w the g u i d e l i n e s , the p o l i c i e s e s t a b l i s h e d by his bo a r d .
T H E COURT: T h a t is e l e m e n t a r y , i s n ' t it, D o c t o r ?
THE W I T N E S S : Yes.
MR. W A L K E R : T h a n k you, Doctor.
T H E COURT: Let ' s take a r e c e s s for a b o u t ten
m i n u t e s .
(A s h o r t r e c e s s w a s taken.)
T H E COURT: Y o u m a y cro s s e x a m i n e , Mr. Light.
MR. LIGHT: T h a n k you, Y o u r Hou r .
C R O S S E X A M I N A T I O N
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q Dr. G o l d h a m m e r , d i d I c o r r e c t l y u n d e r s t a n d y o u to
t a k e th e p o s i t i o n that racial b a l a n c e , p e r s e , is e d u c a t i o n a l !r
d e s i r a b l e in a s c h o o l ?
A I' m no t sure -- I t h i n k we c o u l d g e t into a s e m a n t i :
p r o b l e m .
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CROSS Goldhammer 825
Q I hope not.
A Per se, just by itself, no. Racial balance, coupled
with the appropriate educational program to go along with it,
is desirable. To just provide for the racial balance within
a school system, without making the necessary adjustments in
the educational program, would not be desirable.
Q All right.
A I shouldn't say "would not be desirable". It would
not be superior.
Q Superior to what?
A To a dual system.
Q All right. If racial balance is to contribute any
thing to the educational program a school district is going
to offer, it has to have all these fringes to go along with it
that you include in your plan and have been included in some of
the other plans, is that right?
A It has to include what I call the compensatory
education program, special education program, the in-service
training of teachers, yes.
Q Do you believe that it is educationally bad to have
heavy concentration of various ethnic groups in a school?
A In a situation where it can be avoided, yes.
Q Do you believe that the all-Negro school -- and I
have reference to the student body --is educationally undesir
able in itself?
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CROSS _ Gldhamraer 826
A Yes, sir, I believe that the position that the
Supreme Court took in 1954 has been substantiated by a con
siderable amount of research.
Q And would the same thing hold true of a school that
had a very heavy concentration of Negro students that perhaps
had a few percentage points of students above that of other
groups in it?
A That depends on whether this group has been the
recipient of discrimination and has been accorded no social
prestige. Let's stand, for instance, suppose you had a few
Scandinavian students who have generally been accorded, as an
ethnic group, rather high social prestige. That isn't true.
That isn't the situation that would prevail.
However, let's take the fact that you have a half
dozen Jewish youngsters in a school. Here is a group that has
s uffered discrimination the same as the Negroes. This is bad
for those youngsters unless efforts are made, of course, to
protect them.
Q There is testimony in this case, Doctor, that there
are schools in this country that, are composed of heavy concen
trations of ethnic groups other than Negroes. For example,
New Rochelle, New York, has a school that is over ninety per
cent Jewish and one that is over ninety per cent Italian.
You are familiar with that sort of situation which
is occuring in various schools districts, are you not?
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C R O S S Go 1 dh amine r 827
A Yes.
Q Now, is it educationally bad to have schools com
posed of students of that character?
A If the composition of the community could prevent
this kind of concentration, I would say that it is educational1
undesirable to permit that concentration to occui.
Q what if the composition of the community can’t pie*
vent it? For example, you get out in the Mid-best, you ve
got many, many school districts that are all-white because
there are no Negroes in --
A The same is practically true in most communities
in Oregon, too. We have, maybe, I would say less than six
per cent, or five per cent, of the population is Negro in the
community in Oregon.
I think our white children are deprived of an oppoi-
tunity fully to participate in the mainstream of what is hap
pening in American culture; and this is the one of the things
that I would be concerned about. I am concerned about it in
my own school.
For the two years now that I have been there, I hav t
been trying to provide some Negro staff members, in spite of
the fact that we have only one or two Negro students, just so
that our students will have an opportunity to participate in
the total American culture, which means dealing with the ethni<
differentials that exist in American societ)racial, religious
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CROSS - Goidhammer
which composes in my estimation the strength of American
society.
Q The school in which you are Dean, Doctor, I believe
you said had about 3,000 students, is this correct?
A Yes.
Q And only one or two of those are Negro students?
A Yes, sir.
Q And how many Negro faculty members do you have?
A I do not have any. I had one graduate teaching
assistant last year who was a Negro, but he finished his degre
program.
Q Tell me a little bit about the school district in
Oregon where you were the superintendent.
A It's very small.
Q How many students, approximately?
A When I went there, they had about five hundred, and
when I left, about a thousand.
Q And how many Negro students among those?
A I -- never more than one or two. Never more than
one family in the community.
Q_ And on occasion, perhaps none?
A Yes, I think that we always had one family in the
community, but. I'm not sure. That was a long time ago.
Q What experience have you had teaching Negroes or
administering schools in which Negro students represented a
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C R O S S - G o l d h a m m e r
a substantial and significant element of the population?
A I have done major studies for two school districts
where the ethnic composition of the school was a major factor
in having to devise the programs that we were working on. One,
the Richmond Public Schools in Richmond, California, where we
did all the building projection, the educational specification;
for new buildings, where I was the liaison between the school
district and the county planning commission at a time when
Q Doctor, did you understand my question? I asked
what experience you have had administering school systems or
schools in which there was a substantial Negro group.
A Well, not as a -- not as the superintendent of
schools but as the consultant to the school board and the
school administration, in particularly these two communities.
Q Richmond, and what other community?
A Tucson, Arizone.
Q And, of course, Little Rock would be the third.
A Little Rock would be the third, yes.
Q And you have drawn your experience that you have tac
to those three communities from your studies in Oregon. I
believe all three of your degrees were in Oregon, were they no :
A Yes.
Q Doctor, you indicated this morning, in your pro
fessional judgment, the three Negro students that are projected
to be in Hall High School will be at an educational disadvantag
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they will be isolated, and that sort of tiling, is that correct?
A That’s correct.
Q Isn't that the situation Negroes in Oregon find
themselves in when they enter the schools there?
A Yes, it is, and it's an undesirable situation, but
we can't help -it.
Q Will the achievement of racial balance in the Littl3
Rock school system, if the plan such as you proposed were pur
sued, would it injure some of the children educationally?
A That’s a difficult question to answer, and let me
perhaps answer it this way.
There will be some dislocations, and there will be
some difficult problems; and I suspect that there will be some
individuals who will be hurt. You cannot make major shifts on
the scale that is suggested here without doing so.
Q Doctor -- pardon me. Were you through?
A My answer would also have to include that there
undoubtedly have been children over the years who have been
hurt as the result of the failure to create a unitary school
system.
Q We are balancing out now which group of children
are we going to hurt educationally, is that right?
A Yes. What is done now will be very transitory, and
if you have the adequate compensatory education program and
the adequate special education programs and the adequate in
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C R O S S - Golclhammer 831
service programs for the teachers and school administrtors,
it's my contention that you could minimize any disabilities ox
the problems that will arise.
Q In your study of the Little Rock school system, die
you become aware that there was a disparity in the average
achievement between the Negro students and the white students
of the system?
A This is not a facet that we studied in detail. We
have had information that this was the case and, of course,
this is generally the case in a dual school system.
Q Well, isn't this the pattern you perceive throughoi:
the United States?
A Yes.
Q Whether you go north or south, you find it, don't
you, Doctor?
A Wre find it wherever there is a dual school system.
I have just completed a rather intensive study for another
purpose in Portland. Portland has only six per cent Negroes,
but they have had a de facto segregation policy or effect,
and the achievement scores in the segregated Negro schools
tended to be lower than in the surrounding white schools.
Q I'm not sure that --
A This is also a factor, however, in the segregated
socio-economic schools among white children. Their scores
tend to be lower when they are in separate schools than the
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CROSS - Goldhammer 832
upper socio-economic classes.
Negro test scores, even in segregated situations,
tend to be higher than some other ethnic groups that are segre
gated.
Q I'm not sure that I understand what you mean when
you use the terminology "dual school system". Would you tell
me some large school systems in the country that are not dual
school systems? By your definition of that term.
A Immediately after the Supreme Court decision,
Washington, D. C. became a unitary school system, but it was
resegregated very, very quickly.
I guess to really make a direct answer to your ques
tion, the larger school systems in the country today are tendin;
to be faced with problems of de facto desegregation with which
they are struggling. We have some suburban schools or medium
sized schools, many of them, that are unitary school systems
because the pattern of segregation has been disrupted as the
result of considerable growth in the communities or by the
conscious policy of the school boards.
For instance, we have a large suburban area in Port
land, the David Douglas School District, that has probably abort
-- well, maybe not quite as much, but about as many Negro
students proportionate to its enrollment as Portland.
Q This is six per cent, approximately?
A Well, I'm not sure, but it's -- there are enough
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there so that it is a visible segment of the school populatior
But they are distributed throughout the school system.
Q Doctor, do you know of any school system in the
country where the proportion of Negro students runs as high as
thirty per cent, which is the case in Little Rock, that has
achieved and maintained in a stable fashion the sort of racial
balance in each of its schools as you propose here?
A At this point, no, I cannot cite where this has
been done.
Q Would this achievement of disparity we're talking
about a moment ago create educational problems if the school
district were restructured along the lines you suggest?
A I'm not sure I understand your question. Do you
mean that there would be problems uniquely created by the
program?
Q Well, let me rephrase my question.
If we homogenized the students of the system in the
schools, as you propose, would the fact that some of the eight
grade youngsters are achieving substantially below the other
eighth grade youngsters they are brought in contact with
create educational problems?
A Probably the disparities that exist between the
schools now is no greater than the disparities that currently
exist within the schools, so that your children, for instance,
in your white schools will be ranged a long a continuum from
UJ J
low to high.
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You will have the same type of continuum in the
Negro schools, although the average of the two groups, probably
the Negro average will be smaller. Now, in reality, this
is just the problem with which we have dealt in schools for a
long time, and one of the reasons, generally throughout the
country today, we are recommending such programs as individual
instruction.
For instance, the Federal government has put a lot
of money into developing what we call the IPI System, the
Individual Personalized Instruction, where we are attempting
to provide the proper educational interventions for all childr
One of our problems in educational --
A Doctor, pardon me for interrupting you, but my que*
tion was whether those disparities are going to create educa
tional problems. Are they or are they not?
A They already -- this is the heart and core of our
educational problems, is to meet the individual differences oi
children. As I have indicated, this already exists, and one
of the major concerns throughout the country for all children
is to provide an individual prescription for learning for them.
Q In fact, the reason that you stress so much the
need for compensatory education is to overcome these disparit.
is that not fair?
A In part, that's fair. In part, it isn't. Because
I see the need for the compensatory education, as I conceive
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C R O S S - G o l d h a m m e r
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the term, for the white youngsters just as well as the Negro
youngsters, and this deals with attitudinal problems as well
as achievement problems.
It deals with the problems of helping youngsters
to adjust to new situations so that this is general for the
school system. My suspicion is that practically everything I
suggest for your compensatory or special education
Q Doctor, let me stop you. I don't want the record
containing your suspicions.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, let me state that Mr.
Light, once he asks a question, could give the Doctor a chance
to answer the question.
THE COURT: I think he finished that particular
answer, didn't you, Doctor?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q So that the record will be perfectly clear, Doctor,
when you state that you think there would be no greater range
of disparity in the current white schools than there would be
by taking current white schools and Negro schools, or predomi
nantly white schools and predominantly Negro schools, you are
simply speculating on what you'd find in the Little Rock
system, because I believe you have already said you did not
examine the achievement grades in the system.
A Not in detail.
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Q Did you examine enough in detail to tell me what
the average difference of achievement level is at the high
school level?
A No, sir. If it is in the report, I don't recall
that data now.
Q Doctor, the approach of your group in formulating
your plan was to devise the best educational system that woulc
produce a racial balance in the schools without regard to
monetary problems, was it not?
A That is correct.
Q And it would be impossible to use your plan without
some district-provided busing?
A That is correct.
Q In your suggestion that there are state funds avail
alie to assist with the busing expense, to what extent are you
familiar with the Arkansas laws and regulations of the State
Board of Education pertaining to supporting transportation by
the school districts?
A I hate to have to cite them at the present time,
but we did have a member of our staff who explored them at the
time, and I am not sufficiently familiar at the present moment
with them. All I know is that this was the result of the stuc
that one of the members of our staff did, in consultation with
people in the State Department of Education.
Q Have you any idea what effect it would have on the
m
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CROSS - Goldhammer
available funds from the State Department of Education if the
largest school district in the state suddenly commenced a massi
transportation program that it had not conducted in the past?
A I don't know whether this is a closed or an open --
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, I think the question posec
by Mr. Light is really not an accurate one. The Little Rock
School District is not the largest school district in the
state, and I don't think there is anything to show that.
THE COURT: Well, I think I know what you mean.
There is a slight difference between the Little Rock School
District and the Pulaski County School District. They are
about the same. I think it's irrelevant.
Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: If it's a closed account --by this,
I mean a certain amount of money or number of dollars put into
the account, obviously, as you increase the load, it decrease;,
the subvention that can be given for any one unit.
If it's an open account, then the state allocates
a certain amount of money per pupil or per unit of need, and
so you would have that level which the state decrees main
tained.
1 do not know whether this is an open account or a
closed account.
Q
BY MR. LIGHT:
Do you have any idea of what capital expend!
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CROSS - Cold-hammer
would be required to acquire a sufficient number of buses to
operate such a transportation system?
A I think you have to look at this in two ways: One,
if you were to buy a new bus system, you will have at the
present time, probably the complete purchase you would make in
Little Rock, probably about twelve or fifteen thousand dollars
per bus. That would be the capital investment.
I do not know exactly how many buses you would have
to use. However, you have a city-owned, I believe, transit
system --
THE COURT: It is privately owned, Doctor.
THE WITNESS: Privately owned. I would explore the
possibility of using the existing transportation system or
contracting with the private contractors. We did in the schoc
district in which I was the administrator.
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q Have you explored those possibilities for this syst
A I have not explored them for this system.
Incidentally, I should say that when I lived in
Little Rock, all three of my youngsters rode the bus to school
but I paid for it.
Q Doctor, you have testified here before, I believe,
that there is nothing to lose, educationally, from abandoning
the neighborhood school concept. Is this a fair recollection
m
of your testimony?
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CROSS - Goldhammer 839
A That's correct. Yes, sir.
Q Does the neighborhood school concept provide for
safety of the school child in his traveling to and from school
in a better fashion that riding buses across town?
A In reality, the logic would say yes, but the expert
ence doesn't indicate that.
Q What experience is that?
A The experience of our school district-operated
transportation system is one that has a tremendously enviable
safety record. People see the school bus. There are state
laws in every state to protect, provide special traffic regu
lations for both the operation of a bus and the circulation of
traffic around it and the protection of children boarding and
dismounting from the bus.
We have very, very few children in the United State
who are injured. I had a dissertation done on this problem
insofar as the insurance claims against -- that accrue from sc
bus accidents. It's tremendously low in the State of Oregon,
and I presume elsewhere as the result of the safety factors
associated with school bus operation.
Of course, there is hazard, but there is hazard in
the youngster walking to schools across busy thoroughfares,
so I think these hazards tend to equate themselves out.
Q Is it educationally desirable to have parental
support for the conduct of the school program?
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CROSS - Goldhammer 840
A Yes, sir.
Q And is it more or less difficult in the educational
park concept to acquire and maintain that parental support tha
it is in the neighborhood school?
A I think the parents are going to support the school
regardless of the different patterns of organization that migh
prevail. I would have to say in all fairness to you that the
immediate problem of obtaining community support or community
acceptance of the unitary school system would have some diffi
culties. We'd have to work at re-establishing the public con
fidence in the schools, but there is nothing unique in educa
tion. We have had experiences with these kinds of problems
before, and there are techniques for dealing with them.
Q Isn't it good to have P. T. A. activities in the
school, and mothers supporting the teachers with various
projects in the school?
A Yes. I ran a big consolidated --
Q You've answered the question yes.
A But I would like to explain that the size or the
distance of the school does not deter parent cooperation. Loo
at Hall High School, and the multiple neighborhoods it serves.
I'm sure there is very adequate parental support of the progra
and parental involvement.
Q How are you going to get the economically disadvan
taged people in the east end of Little Rock that we have
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discussed into Hall High School and Parkview High School --
and I ’m talking about parents -- to give that parental support
when they have economic problems and they have time problems
and the travel is obviously a hardship?
A This is a difficulty. There is the same difficult)
probably now in getting them to participate in the schools
within their neighborhood, and it’s something that you have tc
work at. You might have, for instance, home visitation progrs!
that will help these people understand how they can support
the school and support their children’s education program.
This is done in many, many places.
Q Would that cost some money?
A Well, everything that you do costs money. You just
have to equate this with the benefits you expect to derive
from it.
Q Doctor, with the population being mobile and with
the phenomenon that you referred to of resegregation and the
retreat of whites from certain situations, how frequently
would you have to re-strike your balance to maintain a racial
balance in these schools if your proposal were adopted?
THE COURT: What was the last part of your question
Mr. Light?
MR. LIGHT: How frequently he would have to re-
strike the balance to maintain it, if his proposal were to be
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CROSS - Goldhammer
adopted.
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CROSS - Goldhammer
THE WITNESS: This is very, very difficult to speci
ate, because I can't at the present moment forecast the fine
ness with which shifts may be necessary within the community,
but these boundaries are man-made boundaries. Men made the
boundaries and they can change the boundaries.
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q And it is certainly reasonable to assume that woulc
have to be changed from time to time to maintain the balance,
isn't that correct?
A Yes, but the shifts, I think, in a reasonable plan
now, such as the plan that I suggested that Mr. Parsons pre
sented, would be minor -- those shifts would be minor, not
the major shift that has to be done one time.
Q There has been testimony here that with respect to
the mobility of the population in the school district, that ir.
the Memphis School District, address change cards of 6,000
students are made every twenty days, representing the amount
of migration around of the population there.
Wouldn't you think with that degree of movement
within the school system, that very quickly after you opened
school in September, you'd have imbalances rapidly creeping in
in many of the schools?
A To some extent, although I would suspect that that
would be an unusual amount of mobility. I don't think that -•
well, I'd have to see the figures on Little Rock. I would
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CROSS - Goldhammer 843
hesitate to say that Little Rock would approach anywhere near
that percentage of change.
Q I'm sure you were made aware that Dr. Dodson testi
fied here Friday?
A I understood that Dr. Dodson was here.
Q Do you know Dr. Dodson?
A I have never met Dr. Dodson. I am very familiar
with his scholarship and his publications.
Q Would you agree with the testimony that he gave
when he was here Friday that whetever device or devices are
adopted in the way of a desegregation plan* that no desegregat
plan is going to work without community support?
A That's a -- I avoid absolutes, or I try to avoid
absolutes or absolute statements.
I think it would be extremely difficult for any
educational plan of any sort to be totally successful without
community support.
Q Community support is really vital to the operation
of the public school system, is it not?
A This is true of any public function, yes, sir. It
is extremely important.
Q Have you any reason at all to believe that this
community would support your plan?
A When we did our attitudinal study of this communit)
I believe our conclusion was that as a means at that particulE
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CROSS - Goldhammer 8 ^
time, as a means of getting this problem attended to, there
would be -- I forget the exact terminology that we used -- but
a rather -- how shall I put it -- they wished they didn’t have
to do it, but they were reluctantly willing to do it in order
to get the problem solved.
Now, that was probably two years ago that we did
that attitudinal study, and what shifts have taken place, I
couldn't say.
Q In fact, you know that there has been a school
election in September of 1967 in which this plan was very inch
an integral part of the issues in that election, do you not?
A Yes.
Q And do you know that the candidate supporting the
plan was defeated in the election and that the bond issue
to support the plan or that was tied into the plan was defeate
two to one?
A I'm -- I'm not sure about the total interpretation
here. I am aware of the fact to which you allude, yes, sir.
Q Doctor, in your report, you have indicated as the
result of your survey that 47.2 per cent of the white teachers
chose to teach in integrated classes over all-white classes
when given those two choices. Do you recall this?
A I don't recall the exact figures, but I recall the
study to which you refer.
Q So this would leave, stated another way, 52.8 per
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CROSS GoIdhammer
cent of the white teachers indicated that they would prefer tc
teach in all-white classes. Is that fair, is my mathematics
are right?
A I'd have to have that table in front of me to know
exactly what the percentages were, but I think you are approxi
mately correct, yes.
Q All right. For the record, that's on page 397 of
the transcript of the prior proceeding?
A Yes.
Q Let me ask you this. Wouldn't it be an educational
disaster if 52.8 per cent of the white teachers in this systeir
did one of two things: either quit the system,or were very
unhappy in their new assignment as the result of the massive
shifting of teaching assignments?
A Yes, but I don't think you could draw the conclusion
that this wouldhappen, though.
Q Well, can we draw the conclusion that 52.8 per cent
of them were going to be unhappy even if they don't quit?
A No, I don't think so. As I believe I stated in --
THE COURT: I think you covered that before, Doctor.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: That you regarded the Little Rock
teachers professionally competent and would take a professional
attitude toward any innovation that had to be done. Is that
right?
THE WITNESS: That's correct, and I believe the dati
would be supported in my contention.
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CROSS - Goldhammer 846
Q You also testified that "in your judgment fifty
per cent of the white teachers are well prepared to teach in
a proper mix of white and Negro students." Do you recall that
Doctor?
A I agree with the statement.
Q All right. Well, do you base that judgment on the
answer to this question we ha\re been talking about, that 47.2
per cent said they would choose the integrated class?
A Again, we have to look back a t the time we collect<
the data. But we interviewed a large number of teachers in tb
Little Rock schools as the basis for our sampling and the con
clusions drawn from it.
Q But with your judgment that fifty per cent are well
prepared, I take it that means fifty per cent are less well
prepared or maybe not prepared at all, is that correct?
A Well, I would have to say probably fifty per cent
are less well prepared.
Q Is that going to cause Mr. Parsons a good deal of
difficulty in implementing his proposed faculty desegregation
plan?
A Yes, sir, and this is why I have indicated this
morning that such a plan, to be successful, must be accompanie
by an adequate in-service education progiam.
Q All right, what is that to do for the teachers,
Doctor, the in-service program? What are you going to teach
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C R O S S - G o l d h a m m e r 847
them to do?
A Depending upon what the School Board and the admini
stration and the teachers decide are the areas to be dealt wit)
No. 1, I would think that such a program would help
all teachers to understand the varying cultural backgrounds of
the children with whom they will deal.
I would hope that the teachers would have an oppor
tunity to review the research that has been done on school
systems that have attempted this type of massive desegregation
program so they could anticipate the problems that will arise
and be prepared to deal with the kind of problems that will
arise.
I would expect that such a program would help the
teacher to be able to deal effectively with the parents from
the different neighborhoods, different backgrounds from which
the children come and be prepared to do things, for instance,
in conference with the parents and in conferences with the
children to help to allay fears and to help to develop the
proper kinds of attitude to be supported by the school system.
Q How long is it going to take you to change the atti
tudes that the teachers now have that this is designed to over
come?
A The in-service education program could have remarkat:
effect rather quickly because, again, we are dealing \</ith a
professional group, but I believe that it will have to be a
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CROSS - Goldhammer 848
program that will continue for sometime.
But you have already committed your -- I'm sorry.
The school district has committed itself, in accordance with
the orders of the Court, to such a program and to make what
you propose to do, what the school district proposed to do,
effective, I would say that this program is absolutely essen
tial, and this is well recognized in the profession.
Q This is because you are going to encounter a good
many new and different problems in the re-structuring of the
school system you propose and are now encountering in the
schools.
A Obviously. When you change the social situation,
you encounter new types of problems.
Q I believe as an administrator, you think it is
sound to shift teachers around every now and then just to stii
up the organization.
A There are different schools of thought on that, anc
to quote the Declaration of Independence, not for light or
transient reasons.
You would shift teachers or administrators only
with very definite purposes in mind with the hope of achieving
better educational advantages for youngsters. I would never
play the "fruit basket upset" just for the sake, as some peopl
advocate, of keeping the teachers on the ball. I think this
is ridiculous.
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We all perform best, of course, in situations where
we have the greatest security. Any shift, as I’m sure you
recognize and the School Board and Mr. Parsons recognize, doe
create insecurity and part of the in-service training program
is to help the teachers rebuild the security of dealing with
the situation in which they are involved.
Q But if we’re talking about a rather massive shift,
and I think we are
A 232 teachers out of approximately U O O .
Q There’s going to be a good deal of insecurity there
isn’t there?
A Yes, sir, it is a significant problem. I would not
minimize the importance of dealing adequately and being pre-
s
pared to face the kinds of unique situations that I think
will occur, not all of which can be anticipated.
Q Is more or less learning going on if a teacher is
moved into a situation where she is not only insecure but she
is unhappy?
A My estimate would be that the teacher's mental fraj
of mind has significant impact upon the child's learning.
There are other factors that have this impact, too, that we
have to take into consideration.
Q Well, isn't it vital to the educational process
that the teacher and students have to establish a rapport and
empathy between them?
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CROSS - Goldhammer 851
A Oh, yes, that's one of the reasons for the in-servi
education program.
Q And that the insecurity or unhappiness on the part
of the teacher would be an impediment to the establishment of
rapport and empathy, wouldn't it?
A Yes, that's true.
Q If either the teacher or student takes with them
into the classroom situation any hostility or tension, that's
going to create an impediment to the establishment of the
teacher-student rapport, is it not?
A On the whole, you are correct.
Q Doctor, on your educated guess that you gave us
during the earlier trial of a half million dollars to fund th«
Oregon Plan, pay for your plan, that would be recurrent cost,
would it not, an annual cost?
A Of course -- I believe that is correct. Of course,
any plan is dependent on approximate conditions prevailing in
the housing patterns as prevail now.
Q All right, now, you touched on it this morning,
but I didn't follow you carefully.
Which other budgeted programs would you take that
half million dollars from in the Little Rock school system?
A I'm sorry, I guess I don't follow you.
Q Where are we going to get the money?
A Well, I -- I think we would have to study the schoc
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Obviously, if that money were not added to the school budget,
it would cause some dislocations in order to find it within
the existing budget, and it would be a matter of priority, of
how significant and how imperative in the community is it to
do this particular job.
Q Are you aware that not only did we have the school
election in September of *67 involving the Oregon Plan but we
had another one in March of '68 in which the money to support
Mr. Parsons' plan was withheld by the voters by a large major
ity?
A I guess I was aware of the last election.
Q Doctor, if the voters in the school district are
not going to provide the money, we just can't have a busing
plan, can we?
A I'd have to study your budget in detail to determine
whether or not -- again, if it's imperative to develop in
accordance with the criteria established by the Court, a uni
tary school system, then I think that the effort needs to be
made by the School Board and the administration to find the
internal budgetary adjustments, and I can't say for sure they
are possible. But my experience as an administrator would
indicate in a school district this size, it could be done.
Q Let me inquire briefly about something that 1 think
all the witnesses have been in agreement on, and that's the
CROSS ~ Goldhammer 852 j
Beta Complex.
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CROSS - Goldhammer 853
You would not suggest to the Court that the Beta
Complex should be superimposed upon the plan represented by
Defendant's Exhibit 22, would you?
A As I understand it, no.
Q Would create serious problems, would it not?
A To do the job in a section of the community without
its affecting the total community, yes, sir.
Q Doctor, is Defendant's Exhibit No. 22 a standard
attendance area zone map such is used all over the county to
allocate the students anong the schools?
A Pretty much so, yes, sir.
Q And a vast majority of the school districts in this
nation use this sort of system to allocate their students?
A Oh, yes.
Q And have for many years?
A Yes, sir.
Q I'm interested in the solution to de facto segrega
tion or resegregation suggested in your report at page 96,
where you indicate that there would be adopted a rule that no
more than 75 per cent of either race would be permitted to
remain in any school. Have I recalled that essentially cor
rectly?
A I believe that is correct.
Q All right. And you feel that by insuring that there
were no more than 75 per cent white students, for example, in
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Hall High School and, maintaining the same rule, that there
would be no more than 75 per cent Negro students in Mann High
School, would keep the school population within those schools
relatively stable?
A I'm not sure. Just --
Q What is the purpose of your 75 per cent rule?
A Oh, to maintain the racial balance within the schoc
roughly proportionate to the racial balance within the com
munity.
Q All right.
A In other words, to establish a unitary school syste
Q Do you believe that if that plan were so administer
that one school turned out to be 75 per cent Negro and 25 per
cent white, that that would be maintained in a stable situatio
A No. Oh, no, because the Negro population is the
minority population, and I believe, as the rssolution of
November 15th recognizes in the faculty desegregation, at no
time should the Negro population be in the majority.
Q I'm talking about your 75 per cent rule, though.
A I'm not sure that the 75 per cent rule applies to
the way you --
THE COURT: If you have it there, show it to him.
Maybe that would be helpful to him.
BY MR. LIGHT:
It's just two sentences, Doctor. I'll read it to
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CROSS - Goldhammer 855
you.
"It is important to forestall the development of a
de facto pattern of segregation. By assuring that no mor
than 75 per cent of a single racial group will be certaii
of enrollment in a popular attendance center, undesirable
effects of particular residential patterns can be
reduced."
Do you recall that? Do you recall that general
language?
A The language is bad.
Q It's been suggested in some of the other testimony
here and some of the other filings before the Court that there
is a tipping point that you reach where a school that experi-
nces a situation wherein a minority ethnic group reaches a
certain percentage, then it very quickly tends to convert to
predominantly or all of the students of that group.
A Right.
Q You have observed this phenomenon, haven't you?
A Yes.
Q It occurs all over the country -- north and south,
east and west -- doesn't it?
A Yes. Correct.
Q Do you have a professional judgment as to about
what percentage that is?
A I believe, from our experiences, it will vary in
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CROSS - Goldhammer 856
different communities. This is why, generally, the rule has
been applied that the minority group should not exceed in any
appreciable degree the percentage of minority group within the
community.
In Little Rock, I would suspect that when you get
to more than 40 per cent Negro in the school, you will have
exceeded what we call the tipping point.
Q Doctor, what support is there in professional resea
and literature for the proposition that Negroes achieve better
in an integrated school?
A The research that exists pertains particularly to
the self-image that has been discovered to change among Negro
children, when they are isolated or segregated or when they ai
put in a social system where they have an opportunity to par
ticipate on terms of equality with white children.
Some of the studies, for instance, that are or
have been done by Kleinbert; some of the studies that are beir
done by the Center for Urban Education in New York City, woulc
tend to indicate that the interaction that takes place betweer
the Negro and the white child is beneficial to both in the
establishment of improved images of one's own capacity to
achieve.
Q You mentioned two studies. Are these the only
two on which you rely?
A No. Oh, no. I can't cite all of them. I think
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C R O S S - Goldhairliner 857
the Kleinbert, in particular, has a review of the studies in
a new book, and I have it in my briefcase, that would cite
a whole host of studies that are available.
A recent issue of the Center for Urban Education
magazine, called the "Urban Review", cites some extremely sig
nificant work that is being done and it's too early to draw
positive conclusions from it.
In an attempt to take youngsters who have been lowr
achievers and to train the teachers to expect higher levels oi
achievement from them in an integrated situation, the evidence
would point out the fact that just the fact that higher expec
tations are established for the youngsters encourages them to
achieve at higher levels.
Q Don’t some of the widely known and widely read
studies and research indicate that the racial composition of a
school does not in its affect the achievement of the students?
A There have been some studies, and we have some
questions about some of these studies, and
Q Aren't there about as many different conclusions
as there are studies, Doctor?
A The preponderance of the opinion of researchers in
the behavorial sciences who have made adequate studies on
these problems would support the contention that I made. Now,
you had Dr. Dodson here, and he is far more of a scholar of
this literature than I am, and I suspect that this is a questi
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you raised with him.
Q How do you strike the balance on where the prepon
derance lies? Are you talking about how many of them have
spoken on it?
A No, no. I think from the standpoint of the repute
of the scientist, the consistency with which the most sophis
ticated scientific studies have come up to the same conclusior
Q You are familiar, of course, with the Coleman Repoi
A Yes.
Q Are you in agreement with the conclusions it reache
A Well, there -- that's a terribly diffuse report, ar
I would say that on the whole I agree. I have talked with Dr,
Coleman about his report. On the whole, I agree with it,
although I wouldn't that that to be confused with saying that
I agree with the whole thing.
Q You know that after it was published, it was cited
in support of the proposition that it established that the
racial composition of the school did have a direct bearing on
the achievement of the students?
A. Yes, sir.
Q And that Dr. Coleman repudiated that interpretation
and said that his statistics didn't support it?
A Yes, sir. But that's a very complex statistical
argument, one I wouldn’t want to get into this morning.
Q Is there a difference of opinion among those in
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C R O S S - G o l d h a m m e r 859
your profession about whether the neighborhood school concept
is a desirable thing to have and to keep?
A Well, obviously, there is, I'm sure from the testi
mony; although I do not know what Dr. Stimbert stated, my
suspicion is that because of the position that he occupies, he
is a very strong advocate of the neighborhood school concept.
School administrators generally tend to be very
strong advocates of the neighborhood school concept, primarily
because of the fact that it's the easiest way to assign kids
to buildings.
Q Are you a member of the American Association of
School Administrators?
A For many years.
Q Were you a member in
A I’ve been a member since 1945 or 1946.
Q Are you familiar with the report of the Educational
Policies Commission of that organization, made in the N . E. A.
Journal in October of 1965 with respect to the neighborhood
school?
A I am -- I’m not sure about that documentation. I
am aware of the resolution of the N.A.S.A. in support of the
neighborhood school concept.
Q And you find yourself in disagreement with your
fellow members of that organization, is that right?
A Absolutely, on this point.
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CROSS - Goldhammcr 860
Q All right.
A You see, this is -- all I ask school administrators
to do is demonstrate something that you can do in the neigh
borhood school that you cannot educationally do in a larger
school unit, and this they can't do. This is an emotionalizec
reaction to the situation.
MR. LIGHT: Your Honor, I move that be struck as
not responsive.
THE COURT: It was a little argumentative. Perhaps
you invited him to defend it.
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q Are you familiar with and perhaps acquainted with
Dr. James Bryant Conant?
A Yes.
Q Is he now and has he for many years been an out
standing authority in the field of American education?
A Well, here's another controversial point. James
Conant is one of the most celebrated and reputable chemists
in the United States. He was an outstanding president of
Harvard University.
As far as his being an authority on public educatic
that is highly debatable. He has done some studies, but --
well, for instance, his studies on public education -- the
study on the senior high schools, his study on the junior high
schools, his essay where he uses the term "social dynamite" --
I can't think of the name of the book, none of these --
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CROSS - Goldhammer 861
Q "Slums and Suburbs"?
A Yes. "Slums and Suburbs", thank you.
-* none of these, if submitted as research in sup
port of a doctoral dissertation, would get to first base with
a doctoral committee because it's pretty doggone poor research
However, Dr. Conant is a social philosopher now,
after his experience as president of Harvard and his tour of
duty for the government in Europe.
Q I take it you’re familiar with "Slums and Suburbs"
we just mentioned.
A Yes, it's been some time since I’ve seen it, but I
think I ’m familiar with just about everything Dr. Conant has
written.
Q Well, some of the text of that is already in the
record, and I’m not going to repeat it here today, but one of
the conclusions he reaches in that publication is that it is
his belief, based on his research, that "A satisfactory edu
cation can be provided in an all-Negro school with the expendi
ture of more money for needed staff and facilities."
Are you familiar with that conclusion that he has
expressed in that document?
A You have brought it back to mind, yes, sir.
Q All right. Do you find yourself in disagreement
with that?
A There I find myself in qualified disagreement. To
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CROSS - Goldharamer 862
do the job that Conant says to do would cost more money, in
my estimation, than busing the youngsters into desegregated
schools. So again, you’re coming to the question you have
raised about where are you going to g?t the money.
I think it would be a cheaper and a better solution
to desegregate the enrollment rather than provide the massive
remedial programs that would be needed for what Dr. Conant
suggests.
Q But there has not come to your mind, since you've
been on the stand and since I asked you the question earlier
today, any school system in the country with a proportion of
Negro students as large as thirty per cent such as exists in
the Little Rock school system, that has achieved and then
maintained a racial balance in every school in the system, is
this correct?
A I believe that is correct.
Q If we get your plan, Doctor, we are going to be
out in the forefront, aren't we?
A Oh, yes. I said this to the School Board. This
would be a pioneering -- .
Q Doctor, I hand you a document which is a defendant’
exhibit -- I don't recall the number -- but it is the Metropls
document, and I refer you to page 33 where there is a chart.
Are you familiar with the material contained in
that chart as standard guides used by school planners and
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CROSS - Goldhammer 863
administrators? .Pertaining to desirable travel distance and
desirable size of various types of schools?
A Yes.
Q Is that a rather standard set of figures?
A It’s old, and I'm not sure how it would apply now.
School buildings is not my major area of concern, but it is --
it's ten years old.
Q Are the agencies identified on that chart as the
source reputable professional agencies in the educational
business? You need not read them out because that is in the
record, but if you will just look at them, please.
A Yes.
Q All right. And assuming, if you will, that we are
going to have a neighborhood school concept in any particular
school district, are those good standards?
THE COURT: Are they what, Mr. Light?
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q Good standards. Are they desirable standards and
educationally sound?
A If you maintain a neighborhood school concept,
there are other factors that have to be taken into considera
tion, obviously, but as a rule of thumb, I suppose this is as
good as any, as any that I know of.
Q Doctor, would you agree that there's just an awful
lot of diversity of opinion among professional educators about
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CROSS - Goldhaminer 864
the desirability or usefulness or lack of usefulness in main
taining racial balance among schools?
A I think the sentiment is pretty well polarized on
that issue. I believe that --
Q At how many poles?
A Well, probably pretty much centered around one pole
If you put the question this way to a professional educator:
if you have your choice, which would you develop in developing
a school system, would you develop a racially balanced or a
racially imbalanced, a unitary or a dual school system, I
believe that the educators with overwhelming magnitude would
accept the balanced school system.
Q Are you aware of any such poll that has been con
ducted of American educators?
A No, sir.
Q Is "Nation’s Schools" a publication that you are
familiar with?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you read it?
A Occasionally. It is not a research journal, and it
is one of those things that you read as a school administrator
in order to learn some of the tricks of the trade. It is
designed particularly for selling equipment, and I don't buy
equipment.
Q Let me see if I can refresh your recollection,
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CROSS - Goldhamraer 865
Doctor, concerning a poll conducted by that publication in
October, 1963, and the result of which 84 per cent of the
school administrators responding indicated that they favored
the retention of the neighborhood school, even though it
resulted in de facto segregation over busing students --
A Who was polled?
Q Let me look at it so I can be specific, Doctor.
"A four per cent proportional sampling of 16,000
school administrators in continental United States with
a 35 per cent response."
A Of school administrators.
Q Yes.
A Now, a four per cent sampling of 16,000 admini
strators is a very, very small sample, as I'm sure you would
recognize.
No. 2, I would assume from my experience that schoof
administrators would constitute a pretty biased group as far
as the concept of the neighborhood school.
Q I think you've said something two ways or I heard
it two ways, and I’d like to get it straight on the record,
please, Doctor.
A Sure.
Q You have indicated that the majority of the educatofi
in the country, you think, would agree with you on this proposB
tion.
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C R O S S - G o l d h a m m e r
A No, wait a minute. I said that the majority of the
educators, if given the preference, would prefer a unitary
rather than a dual school system.
Q Are you counting these school administrators and
educators?
A Yes, sir.
Q They make up the largest body of educators, I sup
pose, in the country, do they not?
A No, the teaching -- the public school teachers is
the largest body by far.
Q Now, I want to go back to what evidence you have
that you can cite us that your judgment on this is correct,
that the bulk of them would agree with you.
A You must remember that in 1966-67, the reason that
I couldn't spend full-time on the Arkansas study was that I wa;
doing a study of school superintendents for the United States
Office of Education, and our sampling was very small at that
time, too. However, if you look at that report, you will find
that there was a private professional judgment being expressed
by school administrators and a public opinion being expressed
by school administrators.
In private, school administrators were saying to us
that as educators, "we realize that this is the situation that
must prevail." For instance, they complained bitterly in the
public media about the schools having to bear the brunt of
866
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CROSS - Goldharamer 867
solving our pressing social problems in this country.
But in private, in our interviews with them -- and
we have this on record -- they were saying to us "this is
essential in order for the schools to perform their educationa.
tasks effectively and efficiently."
Now, on the basis of our study, and we studied
administrators in five basic centers in the United States
around San Francisco, around Chicago, around New York, around
Oklahoma City, and one other place, around Atlanta, Georgia --
this is the basic pattern that prevailed.
I am not speaking as an individual who has not both
done a study of the situation and at the same time spends most
of my waking hours talking with school administrators in the
various parts of the country.
Q You know Mr. Floyd Parsons and Dr. E. C. Stimbert
personally, do you not?
A Yes, sir.
Q And I am sure your counsel has apprised you of the
fact that both have been on the stand and testified in this
proceeding in favor of the retention of the neighborhood schoo
cncept.
A I heard Mr. Parsons in August.
Q You are not suggesting to the Court by virtue of
what you have just said that those gentlemen would get on this
stand and under oath tell the Court that they entertained a
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CROSS - Goldhammer 868
professional judgment that they do not?
A We're talking about two different things. I have
been alluding to the problem of racial balance, and you have
been alluding to the problem of neighborhood schools.
I don't think there is any difference in the stance
of school administrators generally on the issue of neighbor
hood schools. They are in favor of neighborhood schools.
Q I could parade school superintendents on here for
a week, if the Court permitted, and get that result.
A Or longer, yes, sir.
MR. LIGHT: No further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Walker, do you have anything furthe
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Dr. Goldhammer, you said a few minutes ago that a
Mr. Kleinberg --
A Kleinberg. Otto Kleinberg. K-l-e-i-n-b-e-r-g, I
believe.
Q Do you recall the name of the fext that he wrote tha
you referred to?
A It's the book you're holding -- no, that isn't the
book, but the articles to which I refer are in that book that
you're holding in your hand.
Q So that the Court would be in a position to refer
to these, would you mind stating that?
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R E D I R E C T - G o l d h a m m e r 869
A This is ’’Education and Social Crisis Perspectives
on Teaching Disadvantaged Youth" edited by Keach and others.
Dr. Kleinberg's review of the research begins on
page 162 of this book.
MR. WALKER: We have no further questions.
THE COURT: You may step down, Doctor.
(Witness excused.)
THE COURT: I suppose the Doctor may be excused.
MR. WALKER: Yes, Your Honor, and I think we may
be able to finish our case within a very few minutes.
Your Honor, I!d like to call one school principal
just to establish the proposition that there is significant
transporting of pupils in the Little Rock Public Schools now
via private transportation systems.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WALKER: I don't think there is a basic dis
agreement between counsel on this point, but I would like the
court to know there is considerable transportation now.
THE COURT: All right..
MR. WALKER: Mr. Hawkins.
Whereupon,
EDWIN HAWKINS
having been called as a witness on behalf of plaintiffs, and
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
follows:
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D I R E C T - H a w k i n s 870
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Mr. Hawkins, would you state to the Court whether
pupils are transported by city transportation to and from the
Horace Mann High School each day and if you know approximately
what number of pupils are so transported, and from where?
A Pupils are transported to and from Horace Mann each
day. I'm not in a position to say the number. A large per
centage of our students ride city buses to and from high school
but I’m not in a position to say the number of students that
are transported.
Q Would you know generally \fhether the same is true at
the Booker Junior High School, which is located near Horace
Mann?
A I know in terras of the buses that serve both schools
-- I know the city bus company serves both schools and there
are buses that leave Booker and brings students to Booker and
unloads and brings the rest to Horace Mann. I do not know the
number of students or the percentage.
Q Do you know whether the school district, through tha
Public Law 89-10 program, helps to pay the transportation costs
of pupils who participate within that program?
A Yes. The Little Rock School District does provide
through Title I funds transportation tickets for students who
qualify under that program.
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CROSS - Hawkins 871
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. LIGHT:
Q Do you have any notion of what proportion of the
students that ride the city buses to those schools qualify for
that Title I assistance?
A I don’t remember exactly-. I'd be afraid to say.
I'd have to get the records. I just don't recall.
Q Other than those who would qualify for the Title I
assistance, the other students pay for their own transportatio
when they get on the buses, don't they?
A That's right.
MR. LIGHT: Thank you.
MR. WALKER: No more questions.
THE COURT: You may step down.
(Witness excused.)
MR. WALKER: At this time, Your Honor, I would like
to formulate a proposal which I think Mr. Friday will agree
with and, if not, he may amend it or state his disagreement.
That is at present --
THE COURT: Would you step over there, Mr. Walker?
MR. WALKER: At present, a number of pupils are
transported to and from the various schools, public schools in
the Little Rock School District, by bus pursuant to contracts
between the parents of those pupils and either the Houston-
Bigelow bus line or the Twin-City Transit Company.
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872
THE COURT: The last named bus, so it won't be con
fused, is the private company, but it furnishes what we call
city bus transportation.
MR. WALKER: Yes, sir, and that a large number of
pupils are provided with student identification cards by the
Twin-City Transit Company wherein those pupils are given dis
count rates for use of the Twin-City Transit system during
school hours, the regular fare being 25 cents for a person,
but for students who have their I. D. cards, identification
cards, the amount is 15 cents during school hours; that the
Twin-City Transit Company distributes approximately 21 to 22
thousand such cards to the Little Rock School District who,
in turn, distributes those cards to the pupils in the system;
that a number of pupils are transported by bus to most of the
schools in the District and they pay their own way unless thei:
costs are paid for them by Public Law 89-10 funds.
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, let me respond to that, ar<
maybe we can expedite.
Just for the record, defendant's position is that
this is irrelevant and immaterial to any issue before the
court, but we agree that all students, with the exception of
this government-supported program, get to school by means
other than school-financed means, such as walking, private
transportation, public bus transportation, or I suppose in
certain instances maybe they get together and charter a bus.
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873
I don't want to make Mr. Walker bring a witness in
to prove this type thing with this statement. I do not know
percentages. There is, I am advised by the administrative
staff, a student rate on bus transportation.
Now, with this background, it seems to me like, Mr.
Walker, on what I have stated, prefaced by my statement concer
relevancy and materiality, does this accomplish what you want
to accomplish and not bring a witness?
MR. WALKER: I think it does, Your Honor. We have
no way of proving the exact number of pupils who ride the
buses.
THE COURT: Nobody knows. That's right.
MR. LIGHT: Your Honor, I don't want the record to
stand on this 21,000. There's nothing like 21,000 students
that ride the buses to school.
THE COURT: I'm sure that's right.
MR. WALKER: The figure is simply, Your Honor, so
there will be no misunderstanding about it, a reflection of
the number of identification passes that are handed out or
distributed to the Little Rock school system for distribution
to the pupils within the school system.
I think that this reflects the intention of the bus
c ompany to make sure that each pupil has an opportunity to get
cut-rate rides in the event that he needs them.
THE COURT: What you're saying is that it is a
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874
solicitation of business by the city bus system but is no
indication as to how many ride it.
With that understanding, I will accept it.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, the plaintiff rests.
MR. LIGHT: Your Honor, in response to the Court’s
request in chambers, we now offer the Court the explanation oi
the Beta Complex.
THE COURT: All right, let it be filed as Court
Exhibit No. 1, because I requested.
(The document was marked Court
Exhibit No. 1 for identification,
and was received in evidence.)
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, there is one page of an
exhibit that remains to be provided to the Court by counsel.
THE COURT: What is it, Mr. Walker?
MR. WALKER: That is -- it goes with the census
tract figures -- and it sets out what the average income is
of residents in the District pursuant to census tract documents
It's a one-page document provided by Metroplan.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WALKER: We would like, Your Honor, to have an
opportunity to have several days to formulate what we consider
to be specific prayers for relief. We would like the Court tc
know exactly what we want before the Court issues a ruling.
THE COURT: I have no intention of ruling today.
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m
I indicated I might, but this is a little more complicated and
I want to consider it and study it.
Now, I do not know what your plans are. I suppose
we are about to adjourn. I know that Dr. Goldhammer •• or I
think I know that he needs to catch a plan.
Would it be convenient for me to see counsel about
ten minutes after we adjourn, or do you have other things you
need to do? We can discuss procedures.
MR. FRIDAY: I have one short witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I'm sorry. I didn't realize that.
We will take a ten minute recess now.
(A short recess was taken.)
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Friday.
MR. FRIDAY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Is there any confusion about that last
page Mr. Walker offered?
MR. WALKER: We have it now, Your Honor.
MR. KAPLAN: The data describes median family incone
by census tract for Pulaski County for the year 1960. It is
correlated to the census tract already in the record. That s
census tract 1 through 43.
The data comes from Metroplan office in Little Rock
and is correlated between the Metroplan and the City-County
Data Book, published by the United States Bureau of the Census.
This is the same data as was introduced in Judge Henley's
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876
court in connection with the jury selection case.
THE COURT: Well, now, let's don't get that involve
here.
MR. KAPLAN: And that is basically all about the
data and where it's from.
THE COURT: Is that a new exhibit?
THE CLERK: Plaintiff's Exhibit 7.
(The document referred to was
marked Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 7
for identification, and was
received in evidence.)
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, since Dr. Barron testified
to this program and having had general testimony on it, I woul
like to deal in specifics.
These are excerpts from the minutes of the December
12, 1968, school board meeting which sets forth the proposed
center jointly sponsored by the Little Rock School District
and the University of Arkansas on early childhood education,
which is the imaginative program Dr. Barron testified to.
THE COURT: It's a program that -- what?
MR. FRIDAY: Dr. Barron testified concerning this,
and I wanted the record to reflect that program he was talking
about. I offer this as Defendant's Exhibit 31.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(Thereupon, the document referred
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DIRECT - Woods 877
to was marked Defendant’s Exhibit
No. 31 for identification, and
was received in evidence.)
MR. LIGHT: Mr. Dan Woods, please.
Your Honor, while Mr. Woods is on his way to the
stand, on Plaintiff's Exhibit 7, which are the census tracts,
I think the record should reflect that some of these census
tracts are within the Little Rock School District and some are
not. They are not all within the Little Rock School District.
THE COURT: All right, it’s received.
Thereupon,
DANIEL H. WOODS
having been called as a witness by counsel for defendants,
and having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testi
fied as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q State your name, please.
A Daniel H. Woods.
Q Mr. Woods, you are the same Mr. Woods who is a mem
ber of the Little Rock School Board and who has previously
testified in this proceeding, is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right. Mr. Woods, I want to get in a little
background information on you that is not presently in the
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DIRECT - Woods 878
record.
Where are you employed?
A At the United States Time Corporation, in Little
Rock.
Q All right, let me digress a moment.
Even if it is in the record, for continuity, when
were you elected to the Little Rock School Board?
A September, 1967.
Q And you have served since that time?
A I have served since that time, yes, sir.
Q In what capacity are you employed at U. S. Time
Corporation?
A I'm Industrial Relations Manager. I've served in
that capacity since 1954.
Q While serving in that capacity, has it been your
responsibility to deal with the matter concerning equal employ
ment opportunities for members of the white and Negro races?
A Yes, sir, this is my responsibility for our company.
Q All right. Just briefly, for background information,
would you tell what you have done in this area?
A Yes, sir. A good number of years ago - - I can't
remember exactly -- our company embarked upon a program of
equal employment opportunity in which we set out a program for
development for both hiring, promotion, and to try to develop
full employment opportunities for all races that are in this
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DIRECT - Woods 879
employment area.
MR. WALKER: Just a minute, Your Honor.
We would think that in the interest of time, we wou:.
stipulate that Mr. Woods, for whatever it is worth, works in
a responsible position at U. S. Time, and that U. S. Time
presently has no problem with regard to employment discrimi
nation. We don't think that is relevant here.
THE COURT: Well, I don't know what he is getting to
MR. FRIDAY: Your Honor, good faith in three or
four particulars has been brought out to the point that we
anticipate and we would like at least the opportunity to make
the record --
THE COURT: Well, we haven't confined the testimony
to relevant material so far. I won't start now.
MR. FRIDAY: Thank you, Your Honor.
BY MR. FRIDAY:
Q Now, Mr. Woods, I want the specifics. What have
been the results, and relate it primarily to matters you have
had supervision of, what are the results? Give me total
employment figures.
A The entire program was under my supervision. Our
total employment at the present time is approximately 3500 in
three locations in Little Rock, of which 975 are Negroes.
Q Slightly under a third.
A Right around 27 per cent. Of these, less than one
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hundred are in what you would call service jobs -- porters,
laborers, what have you.
Certainly, the bulk of them are semi-skilled opera
tors which is, of course, the bulk of our employment. But we
have also, through our own development because they were not
available to hire, have developed supervisors, skilled crafts
men, semi-skilled craftsmen, technicians throughout the plant.
Q All right, Mr. Woods, one other question on it.
Have you received any awards because of your endeav
in this field?
A Yes, we received -- I believe it was in 1965; I
can't recall the year -- the Urban League Award for Equal
Employment Opportunity.
I might add that of my own staff of four girls, one
of them is a Negro girl.
Q All right. Now, turning back to the matters here,
Mr. Drummond has stated both in testimony and in his statement
set forth in Defendant's Exhibit No. 27, that the Board unani
mously established guidelines for Mr. Parsons and his staff
concerning the coming up with a desegregation proposal.
A Yes, sir.
Q Is that correct?
A That was in the September meeting.
Q Would you state what those guidelines were?
A Those guidelines were, No. 1, that the plan be
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educationally sound; No. 2, that the plan be economically
feasible; and, No. 3, that the plan be -- well, coincide with
the Court's directives of last summer.
Q Have there been any other guidelines established
than those you have just named?
A No, sir.
Q Have there been any other directives given to Mr.
Parsons, either by you individually or, to your knowledge, by
the Board or any other member of the Board?
A
one else.
None by me personally and, to my knowledge, by no
Q Now, Mr. Woods, there has been testimony here con-
cerning the really only disagreement by the Board, and that
was between an October 10 proposal of Mr. Parsons and the
desegregation plan that is now before the Court, specifically
that one set forth in Defendant's Exhibit 22 here.
You have been in the courtroom and have heard this
testimony.
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, how did you vote?
A I voted for the plan exhibited in Defendant's
Exhibit 22.
Q That is submitted here.
A Yes, sir.
Q You did not support Mr. Drummond's motion for the
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October 10 proposal.
Q No, sir.
Q All right, why did you so vote?
A The proposal of October 10th embraced gerrymanderin
of one school. I could not support a gerrymandering proposal,
especially since it related only to one school, and since I
felt that it would not fit into the Court, order that we had
last summer of providing just "schools” .
Also, in this particular plan, the gerrymandering
reached within a few blocks of Central High School, which com
pletely removed any concept of neighborhood schools, and it
also removed the Briarwood and University Park areas from the
Hall area, which we felt should remain in the Hall area since
this is, to the best information we have, going to be an inte
grated neighborhood which would provide us with the proper
type of integration within the concept that the school system
is working for integrating Hall High School.
But we could not, in using the gerrymandering,
include both the University Park and the area included in the
Ocoober 10th paper.
Q Specifically, since good faith is an issue, were yo
or to your knowledge any member of the Board that voted with
you, were you motivated by any desire to establish, as one
w itness has described it, a racist school system or to hold
integration to a minimum?
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A Absolutely not.
MR. FRIDAY: That is all, Your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. WALKER:
Q Do you know, Mr. Woods, whether or not there has
been filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission at
any time during the past three years a complaint charging U. S.
Time with employment discrimination? Do you know?
A There’s one complaint been filed.
Q During that period of time?
A The' same complaint was filed with both the Equal
Employment Commission and with the Contracts Compliance Divisio
Both of them were investigated by both agencies and we were
held correct by both agencies.
Q Do you know whether there are any complaints now
pending?
A I know of none pending right now.
Q All right. Now, let me ask you did you first seek
office in opposition to Mr. James E. Coates in 1966?
A I think it’s James M. Coates. And 1967, it is.
Q All right. Is it true that Mr. Coates supported the
implementation of the Oregon Plan?
A This was my understanding that he supported most of
it. There are parts of it that I understand he did not support
Q Would you mind stating generally what the platform
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CROSS - Woods 884
was that you campaigned on in opposition to Mr. Coates?
A Yes, sir. You're taxing my memory, but I had a
six-point program which was, No. 1 -- well, I won't go into
the numbers; I can't remember the order. But it was the
preservation of the neighborhood school concept, the expansion
of our compensatory education program, the further development
of Metropolitan High School and its expansion, the opposition
to the Oregon Report, and -- I can't recall the other two
points at the moment.
Q Would you say the principal point in your platform,
Mr. Woods, was your opposition to the Oregon Report?
A We-1, now, you reminded me what the other -- what
one of the other points was.
My principal point was that education should be the
primary objective of the school board, so this was in my --
this would be my primary point in my platform.
Q And the opposition to the Oregon Report.
A This was the sixth item, but it was an important
one, I'm sure, in my election.
Q isn't it true that after the Oregon Plan was defeats
by the voters that Mr. Parsons presented his plan then, and
that you voted in opposition -- that is, as a Board member --
in opposition to the Parsons Plan or the basic provisions of
the Parsons Plan?
A Well, your question said "when the Oregon Plan was
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CROSS - Woods 885
defeated by the voters."
The voters never voted on the Oregon Plan other the
speaking through the election of Board members.
In answer to the second part of your question, yes,
I did vote against the Parsons Plan.
Q I see. Now, one other point.
You said you did not want to gerrymander, you say,
in order to cause more Negro pupils to be brought into the
Hall High School attendance --
A No, sir. No, sir, that's not what I said. I said
I did not want to gerrymander, period, for any purpose.
Q You said that you did not want to remove University
Park and Briarwood from the Hall High School attendance area,
is that true?
A That is correct. They are in closer proximity, or
at least Briarwood is in closer proximity, to the Hall High
School, and University North, we felt, should logically go int<
the Hall area.
Q You do know that there are no Negroes in Briarwood,
don't you?
A None to my knowledge, Mr. Walker.
Q And do you know whether or not there are any high
school age Negro pupils in University Park NOrth?
A When you say "high school age", no, sir, I do not
know. I do not know what age any of them are. I do know the
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CROSS - Woods 886
are Negroes living there, though.
Q Mr. Woods, is it your understanding that Little
Rock operates at present at the high school level a neighbor
hood school basis?
A Yes, I would call our concept a neighborhood concep
throughout the system, bearing in mind that we only have four
high schools that have to house the students from a large area
Q In your preparation of this particular plan and the
drawing of these particular lines, did --
A Mr. Walker, I didn't draw the lines. I approved th<
as they were drawn by Mr. Parsons and his staff.
Q I see. Did you request or did any Board member, tc
your knowledge, request Mr. Parsons to draw the lines in such
a way as to bring about a greater degree of racial balance in
each school?
A Specifically, our instructions to Mr. Parsons were
incorporated in our minutes of the September 27th meeting.
Q Well, I'm asking you generally in your discussions
with Mr. Parsons, did you instruct him to present an alter
native plan which would produce in each one of the schools set
forth on that particular map greater racial balance in those
schools?
A No, sir, we did not ask him to present us a plan
with racial balance.
Q I see. Did you at any time direct Mr. Parsons to
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CROSS - Woods 887
the effect that racial balance was a desired objective ot the
Board and that he should be conscious of this in formulating
his attendance lines?
Of racial balance?
Q
A
Yes.
No, sir.
MR. WALKER: No more questions.
MR. FRIDAY: That's all, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, Mr. Woods.
(Witness excused.)
MR. FRIDAY: Defendants rest, Your Honor.
MR. WALKER: Plaintiffs rest, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right, that concludes the evidence
and the record will be closed.
(Discussion off the record.)
THE COURT: The Clerk has called my attention to
the fact that I reserved ruling on Plaintiff's Exhibit 5,
Model Cities Data. Frankly, I don't recall what the discussic
was about.
MR. WALKER: Your Honor, it is really very insig
nificant, except that it sets out the city's description of
the Model Cities area, and it also purports to state that the
schools in the Model Cities area are in need of replacement or
serious renovation.
MR. FRIDAY: As long as it goes in that that is an
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888
excerpt from the application, and we are not admitting any more
than that, that is all right.
THE COURT: It will be received.
(The document heretofore marked
Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 5 for
identification was received in
evidence.)
MR. ROTENBERRY: Your Honor, there is also one
other thing, this 1960 Comprehensive Metroplan publication.
I think the record remained open for our reproduction of desig
nated portions.
THE COURT: I thought that they put in some of it
and I thought that you would be permitted to put in anything
you wanted to, is that right?
MR. ROTENBERRY: Can that be done later?
THE COURT: It may be done, but let’s do it next
week. It will be part of the same exhibit -- or will it?
MR. WALKER: It won’t make any difference, Your
Honor, how it comes in. It can be Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 8,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WALKER: We would like to present, even though
it would not be a part of this record as such, data in support
or evidence in support of the counsel fees, and we would
like to have this done.
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889
THE COURT: That is premature at this time, Mr.
Walker.
MR. WALKER: I understand, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Is there anything further.
All right, the record is closed. Court is now
adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 11:05 o ’clock, a.m., the above-entitled
proceedings were concluded.)
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890
c e r t i f i c a t e
I, Dean C. Ragan, do hereby certify that I arc the
Official Court Reporter for the United States District Court,
Eastern District of Arkansas, Western Division; that on the
dates of December 19, 20, and 24, 1958, I was present in court
and reported the proceedings herein in the case of Delores
Clark, et al, v. The Board of Education of the Little Rock
School District, et al, before the Honorable Gordon E. Young,
Judge of said Court; and that the foregoing pages of typewritten
matter constitute a true and correct transcription of the
proceedings and testimony as reported by me at the time and
thereafter reduced to typewritten form.
WITNESS my hand this 13th day of January, 1969.
Dean C. Ragan, Reporter
891
MEMORANDUM OPINION
F I L E D
MAY 8 1969
w.
I N THE U N IT E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T CCHTR2L
E A ST E R N D I S T R I C T OP ARKANSAS
WESTERN D I V I S I O N
MLDep, Cler k"
D E L O R E S C L A R K , e t a l P L A I N T I F F S
v . N o . L R -64- C -155
THE BOARD OF ED U C A T IO N O F THE
L I T T L E ROCK SCHOOL D I S T R I C T , e t a l DEFEN D A N TS
YOLANDA G . TOWNSEND, a m i n o r , e t a l P L A I N T I F F - I N T E R V E N O R S
L I T T L E ROCK CLASSROOM TEACHERS
A S S O C I A T I O N IN T E R V E N O R S
MEMORANDUM O P I N I O N
H I S T O R Y OF T H I S C A S E .
O n N o v e m b e r 4 , 1964, f i v e N e g r o c h i l d r e n , j o i n e d b y t h e i r
p a r e n t s , f i l e d t h e i r c o m p l a i n t i n t h i s c a s e , s e e k i n g t o e n j o i n
t h e L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l B o a r d f r o m r e f u s i n g t h e m a d m i s s i o n t o
c e r t a i n L i t t l e R o c k s c h o o l s b e c a u s e o f t h e i r r a c e . A s i d e f r o m
t h e i n a b i l i t y o f t h e s e c h i l d r e n t o a t t e n d t h e s c h o o l s o f t h e i r
c h o i c e , t h e p r i n c i p a l a t t a c k i n t h e c o m p l a i n t w a s d i r e c t e d
a g a i n s t t h e L i t t l e R o c k B o a r d ' s u s e o f t h e A r k a n s a s P u p i l
A s s i g n m e n t L a w . T h e p l a i n t i f f s u r g e d i n t h e i r c o m p l a i n t t h a t
a t t e n d a n c e z o n e s b e c r e a t e d b y t h e B o a r d o n a n o n - r a c i a l b a s i s .
O n A p r i l 23, 1965, t h e B o a r d f i l e d a " S u p p l e m e n t a l R e p o r t , "
r e q u e s t i n g t h e a b a n d o n m e n t o f t h e B o a r d ' s u s e o f t h e A r k a n s a s
P u p i l A s s i g n m e n t P l a n a n d t h e a d o p t i o n o f a " F r e e d o m o f C h o i c e "
p l a n .
T h e p l a i n t i f f s , i n t h e i r m e m o r a n d u m b r i e f f i l e d F e b r u a r y 4 ,
1965, s t a t e d t h a t ( q u o t i n g N o r t h c r o s s v . B o a r d o f E d u c a t i o n ,
302 F . 2d 818, 823) :
892
Memorandum Opinion
" M i n i m a l r e q u i r e m e n t s f o r n o n - r a c i a l s c h o o l s
a r e g e o g r a p h i c z o n i n g , a c c o r d i n g t o t h e
c a p a c i t y a n d f a c i l i t y o f t h e b u i l d i n g s a n d
a d m i s s i o n t o a s c h o o l a c c o r d i n g t o r e s i d e n c e
a s a m a t t e r o f r i g h t . "
I n p l a i n t i f f s ' r e s p o n s e t o t h e B o a r d ’ s m o t i o n t o p r o c e e d
u n d e r t h e f r e e d o m o f c h o i c e p l a n , p l a i n t i f f s a g a i n a s k e d t h a t
t h e C o u r t r e q u i r e t h e B o a r d t o g e n e r a l l y r e a s s i g n a l l p u p i l s
t o g e o g r a p h i c a t t e n d a n c e a r e a s .
O n J a n u a r y 14, 1966, t h e c o u r t f i l e d a m e m o r a n d u m o p i n i o n
a p p r o v i n g t h e f r e e d o m o f c h o i c e p l a n p r o p o s e d b y t h e B o a r d .
P l a i n t i f f s t h e n a p p e a l e d t o t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s C o u r t o f
A p p e a l s f o r t h e E i g h t h C i r c u i t , w h i c h a f f i r m e d t h e f r e e d o m o f
c h o i c e p l a n , w i t h a m i n o r m o d i f i c a t i o n a s t o s u f f i c i e n c y o f
n o t i c e t o b e g i v e n t o p u p i l s a n d t h e i r p a r e n t s , a n d w i t h t h e
f u r t h e r r e q u i r e m e n t t h a t t h e B o a r d t a k e m o r e p o s i t i v e a n d
d e f i n i t i v e a c t i o n i n r e g a r d t o d e s e g r e g a t i o n o f f a c u l t y a n d
s t a f f . C l a r k v . B o a r d o f E d u c a t i o n o f L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l D i s t , ,
369 F . 2d 661 (8 C i r . 1966) .
O n J u n e 25, 1968, p l a i n t i f f s f i l e d a m o t i o n f o r f u r t h e r
r e l i e f , a s k i n g , a m o n g o t h e r t h i n g s , t h a t t h e B o a r d b e r e q u i r e d
t o s u b m i t a p l a n f o r t h e a s s i g n m e n t o f a l l s t u d e n t s u p o n t h e
b a s i s o f a u n i t a r y s y s t e m o f n o n - r a c i a l g e o g r a p h i c a t t e n d a n c e
z o n e s , o r a p l a n f o r t h e c o n s o l i d a t i o n o f g r a d e s o r s c h o o l s o r
b o t h . S e v e r a l p a r t i e s s o u g h t l e a v e t o i n t e r v e n e i n t h e a c t i o n .
O n e g r o u p w a s p e r m i t t e d t o i n t e r v e n e a s a d d i t i o n a l p a r t i e s p l a i n
t i f f ; t h e L i t t l e R o c k C l a s s r o o m T e a c h e r s A s s o c i a t i o n w a s a l s o
p e r m i t t e d t o i n t e r v e n e , a l t h o u g h i t t o o k n o a c t i v e p a r t i n t h e
p r o c e e d i n g s ; t h e o t h e r m o t i o n s f o r l e a v e t o i n t e r v e n e w e r e d e n i e d .
O n J u l y 17, 1968, t h e B o a r d f i l e d i t s a n s w e r t o t h e m o t i o n
f o r f u r t h e r r e l i e f . E s s e n t i a l l y , i t s t a t e d t h a t a f t e r t h e U n i t e d
S t a t e s S u p r e m e C o u r t d e c i s i o n s i n t h e G r e e n e , R a n e y a n d M o n r o e
-2-
893Memorandum Opinion
c a s e s (M a y 27, 1968) t h e S c h o o l B o a r d h a d a p p o i n t e d a c o m m i t t e e
t o d e t e r m i n e w h a t f e a s i b l e c h a n g e s a n d a l t e r n a t i v e s t o t h e
d e s e g r e g a t i o n p r o c e d u r e s o f t h e D i s t r i c t w e r e a v a i l a b l e — t h a t
t h i s c o m m i t t e e h a d m e t s e v e r a l t i m e s , b u t b e f o r e i t c o u l d c o n
c l u d e i t s w o r k p l a i n t i f f s ' m o t i o n w a s f i l e d .
I t s t a t e d t h a t t h e c o m m i t t e e w o u l d c o n t i n u e i t s w o r k , a n d
e x p r e s s e d t h e c o m m i t m e n t o f t h e B o a r d t o p r o c e e d a f f i r m a t i v e l y
i n g o o d f a i t h , e t c .
O n J u l y 18, 1968, t h e C o u r t w r o t e a l e t t e r t o c o u n s e l f o r
t h e S c h o o l B o a r d , a s f o l l o w s :
" I c o n s i d e r t h e a n s w e r o f t h e d e f e n d a n t s t o
t h e m o t i o n f o r f u r t h e r r e l i e f a s e s s e n t i a l l y
m e a n i n g l e s s a n d a n e v a s i o n o f t h e B o a r d ' s
r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s u n d e r t h e l a w .
"A h e a r i n g o n t h e m o t i o n f o r f u r t h e r r e l i e f
i s s e t f o r T h u r s d a y , A u g u s t 15, a t 9:30 a . m .
" B e c a u s e o f t h e s h o r t t i m e b e t w e e n n o w a n d
t h e n e w s c h o o l y e a r , I s u g g e s t t h a t t h e B o a r d
a n d i t s s t a f f i m m e d i a t e l y b e g i n t h e f o r m u l a
t i o n o f a p l a n f o r t h e d i v i s i o n o f t h e s c h o o l
s y s t e m i n t o c o m p u l s o r y a t t e n d a n c e a r e a s a n d
t h e r e - a s s i g n m e n t o f t h e f a c u l t y t o e a c h
s c h o o l i n a c c o r d a n c e ’ w i t h t h e r a t i o b e t w e e n
t h e r a c e s i n t h e s y s t e m .
" T h i s l e t t e r s h a l l b e m a d e a p a r t o f t h e r e c o r d . "
A h e a r i n g w a s h e l d o n t h e m o t i o n a n d a n s w e r o n A u g u s t 15
a n d 16, 1968. A t t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f t h e s e c o n d d a y , p l a i n t i f f s '
c o u n s e l m o v e d t o a d j o u r n t h e h e a r i n g t o p e r m i t t h e d e f e n d a n t
B o a r d t o s u b m i t a r e v i s e d p l a n .
A s r e q u i r e d b y t h e C o u r t , t h e d e f e n d a n t B o a r d f i l e d i t s
r e p o r t a n d r e v i s e d p l a n o n N o v e m b e r 15, 1968. T h e c a s e w a s s e t
f o r t r i a l o n D e c e m b e r 19, a n d t e s t i m o n y w a s h e a r d f o r t h r e e m o r e
d a y s — D e c e m b e r 19, 20 a n d 24, 1968.
T h i s m e m o r a n d u m o p i n i o n i s b a s e d o n t h e p l e a d i n g s a n d t h e
h e a r i n g s h e l d o n t h o s e d a t e s .
-3-
894
Memorandum Opinion
T H E P R O P O S E D PLAN OF THE L I T T L E ROCK SCHOOL BOARD F I L E D
NOVEMBER 15, 1969. ,
T h e p r o p o s e d p l a n i s i n t h e f o r m o f a r e s o l u t i o n , a d o p t e d by
t h e B o a r d o f D i r e c t o r s o f t h e L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l B o a r d o n
N o v e m b e r 15, 1969. I t i s a s f o l l o w s !
"B E I T RESOLVED b y t h e B o a r d o f D i r e c t o r s
o f t h e L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l D i s t r i c t o f P u l a s k i
C o u n t y , A r k a n s a s :
‘' T h a t t h e f o l l o w i n g d e s e g r e g a t i o n p l a n
f o r t h e L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l D i s t r i c t f o r t h e
1969-70 s c h o o l y e a r b e a d o p t e d a $ d p r e s e n t e d
t o t h e H o n o r a b l e G o r d o n Y o u n g , U . S . D i s t r i c t
J u d g e , p u r s u a n t t o h i s O r d e r o f A u g u s t 16,
1968, e n t e r e d i n t h e c a s e o f D e l o r e s C l a r k ,
e t a l , v . B o a r d o f E d u c a t i o n o f L i t t l e R o c k
S c h o o l D i s t r i c t , e t a l . "
" A . F a c u l t y
" T h e L i t t l e R o c k P u b l i c S c h o o l s w i l l
a s s i g n a n d r e a s s i g n t e a c h e r s f o r t h e 1969-70
s c h o o l y e a r t o a c h i e v e t h e f o l l o w i n g ;
" 1. T h e n u m b e r o f N e g r o t e a c h e r s
w i t h i n e a c h s c h o o l o f t h e d i s t r i c t w i l l r a n g e
f r o m a m i n i m u m o f 15% t o a m a x i m u m o f 45% .
" 2. T h e n u m b e r o f w h i t e t e a c h e r s
w i t h i n e a c h s c h o o l o f t h e d i s t r i c t w i l l r a n g e
f r o m a m i n i m u m o f 55% t o a m a x i m u m o f 85% .
" B . S t u d e n t s
" T h e L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l D i s t r i c t w i l l
b e d i v i d e d i n t o g e o g r a p h i c a t t e n d a n c e z o n e s
f o r e l e m e n t a r y , j u n i o r h i g h , a n d s e n i o r h i g h
s c h o o l s a s i n d i c a t e d o n t h e a c c o m p a n y i n g m a p .
A l l s t u d e n t s r e s i d i n g i n t h e d e s i g n a t e d z o n e s
w i l l a t t e n d t h e a p p r o p r i a t e s c h o o l i n t h a t
z o n e w i t h t h e f o l l o w i n g e x c e p t i o n s :
" 1. T h e M e t r o p o l i t a n V o c a t i o n a l -
T e c h n i c a l H i g h S c h o o l w i l l s e r v e s t u d e n t s f r o m
t h e e n t i r e d i s t r i c t . S t u d e n t s w i l l i n d i c a t e
t h e i r d e s i r e t o a t t e n d M e t r o p o l i t a n b e f o r e M a y 1,
1969. A c t u a l a s s i g n m e n t s w i l l b e d e t e r m i n e d
f r o m o b j e c t i v e t e s t r e s u l t s o n o n e o r m o r e
v o c a t i o n a l - t e c h n i c a l a p t i t u d e i n v e n t o r i e s .
" 2. A l l t e a c h e r s , w h o d e s i r e t o d o
s o , m a y e n r o l l t h e i r c h i l d r e n i n t h e s c h o o l s
w h e r e t h e y a r e a s s i g n e d t o t e a c h .
-4-
895
Memorandum Opinion
)
" 3. A l l s t u d e n t s p r e s e n t l y i n t h e
8t h , 10t h , a n d 11t h g r a d e s w i l l b e r e q u i r e d
t o c h o o s e b e t w e e n t h e s c h o o l t h a t t h e y n o w
a t t e n d o r t h e a p p r o p r i a t e s c h o o l l o c a t e d i n
t h e z o n e o f r e s i d e n c e f o r t h e 1969-70 s c h o o l
y e a r . "
D E S C R I P T I O N OF THE L I T T L E ROCK SCHOOL D I S T R I C T ,
T h e L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l D i s t r i c t i s s e m i - r e c t a n g u l a r g e o
g r a p h i c a l l y , r u n n i n g f r o m e a s t t o w e s t . I t s b o r d e r o n t h e n o r t h
i s t h e A r k a n s a s R i v e r , w h i c h s e p a r a t e s L i t t l e R o c k f r o m N o r t h
L i t t l e R o c k . On t h e s o u t h s i d e l i e s w h a t i s c a l l e d t h e F o u r c h e
R i v e r b o t t o m s . T h i s i s a l o w a r e a a n d n o t s u i t a b l e f o r t h e
e r e c t i o n o f h o m e s . I t i s , t h e r e f o r e , a n e f f e c t i v e b a r r i e r t o
e x p a n s i o n o f t h e D i s t r i c t s o u t h w a r d u n t i l t h e w e s t e r n p a r t o f
t h e s c h o o l a r e a i s a p p r o a c h e d . T h e e a s t e r n p a r t i s c o m m e r c i a l
a n d i n d u s t r i a l i n n a t u r e . T h u s , t h e D i s t r i c t i s n a r r o w n o r t h
a n d s o u t h u n t i l t h e w e s t e r n e n d o f t h e D i s t r i c t i s a p p r o a c h e d ,
w h e r e t h e A r k a n s a s R i v e r m a k e s a n o r t h w e s t e r l y t u r n , a n d t h e
e n d o f t h e F o u r c h e b o t t o m a r e a i s r e a c h e d . T h i s e x t r e m e w e s t e r n
a r e a a n d t h e s o u t h w e s t e r n a r e a f u r n i s h t h e o n l y b a s i s f o r
e x p a n s i o n o f t h e C i t y a n d t h e S c h o o l D i s t r i c t , a n d i t i s t h e s e
a r e a s w h e r e n e a r l y a l l r e s i d e n t i a l c o n s t r u c t i o n h a s o c c u r r e d f o r
a n u m b e r o f y e a r s .
T h e c e n t e r o f t h e D i s t r i c t , i n c l u d i n g t h e M a i n S t r e e t o f
L i t t l e R o c k a n d t h e s t r e e t s a d j a c e n t t h e r e t o , w e r e f o r m e r l y
o c c u p i e d b y h i g h e r i n c o m e c i t i z e n s , m o s t l y w h i t e . I n t h e l a s t
f e w y e a r s a g r e a t m a n y o f t h e m h a v e m o v e d t o t h e w e s t e r n p a r t
o f t h e C i t y a n d D i s t r i c t , a n d N e g r o e s h a v e m o v e d t o t h e c e n t e r
o f t h e C i t y t o o c c u p y t h e s e v a c a t e d h o m e s .
I n S u p e r i n t e n d e n t F l o y d W. P a r s o n s ' D e s e g r e g a t i o n R e p o r t ,
D f . E x . 10, h e s t a t e s , p p . 4 a n d 5, t h a t h o u s i n g p a t t e r n s i n
t h e c i t y a r e l a r g e l y s e g r e g a t e d . T h e r e h a s b e e n s o m e i n f i l t r a t i o n
-5-
M e m o r a n d u m O p i n i o n
b y N e g r o e s i n t o t h e h i s t o r i c a l l y i d e n t i f i e d w h i t e s e c t i o n s .
O n c e t h i s i n f i l t r a t i o n b e g i n s , t h e s e c t i o n t e n d s t o m o v e r a p i d l y
t o a l l - N e g r o . T h i s h a s c r e a t e d s e v e r a l p o c k e t s o f N e g r o
r e s i d e n t s s u r r o u n d e d b y w h i t e n e i g h b o r h o o d s . H e s a i d a l s o t h a t
t h e s e c t i o n s i d e n t i f i e d a s a l l - N e g r o a r e a c t u a l l y n o t a l l - N e g r g .
A n i n s i g n i f i c a n t n u m b e r o f w h i t e f a m i l i e s " d o t " e v e r y N e g r o
s e c t i o n o f t h e C i t y . • O n p a g e 5 o f t h e r e p o r t i t i s s a i d t h a t
m o s t o f t h e s c h o o l b u i l d i n g s i n L i t t l e R o c k w e r e c o n s t r u c t e d
w i t h a v i e w t o p e r p e t u a t i n g s e g r e g a t i o n r a t h e r t h a n i m p l e m e n t i n g
d e s e g r e g a t i o n . " T h i s m e a n s t h a t a N e g r o c o m m u n i t y h a s a s c h o o l
s o l o c a t e d i n r e l a t i o n t o i t t h a t i t i s 1 s e n s i b l e 1 f o r c h i l d r e n
i n t h a t c o m m u n i t y t o a t t e n d t h a t s c h o o l . T h e s a m e i s t r u e f o r
t h e w h i t e c o m m u n i t y . " O n t h e o t h e r h a n d , P a r s o n s t e s t i f i e d a t
t h e h e a r i n g ( T r . 444) , " N o , w e h a v e n o t b u i l t a n y b u i l d i n g f o r
t h e p u r p o s e o f p e r p e t u a t i n g s e g r e g a t i o n . "
T o i l l u s t r a t e g e n e r a l l y t h i s p o p u l a t i o n m a k e u p , t h e l o c a t i o n
1
o f t h e f o u r g e n e r a l h i g h s c h o o l s i s i l l u m i n a t i n g . T h e m o s t
e a s t e r n h i g h s c h o o l i s H o r a c e M a n n , w h i c h i s a l l - N e g r o . I n t h e
m i d d l e o f t h e C i t y i s C e n t r a l H i g h , w h i c h i n t h e s c h o o l y e a r
1968-69 h a d 1,542 w h i t e s t u d e n t s a n d 522 N e g r o e s . A t t h e s a m e
t i m e , H a l l H i g h , i n t h e w e s t e r n p a r t o f t h e D i s t r i c t , h a d 1,461
w h i t e p u p i l s a n d 4 N e g r o e s . T h e f o u r t h h i g h s c h o o l , ' P a r k v i e w ,
i n t h e s o u t h w e s t e r n p a r t , h a d 46 N e g r o e s a n d 519 w h i t e s . ( D f .
E x . 25) P a r k v i e w i s n o t a s y e t a t r u e h i g h s c h o o l . I t c o n s i s t s
o f g r a d e s 8, 9, a n d 10 i n 1968- 69; a n d w i l l s e r v e g r a d e s 9, 10,
a n d 11 i n 1969- 70. S i m i l a r p a t t e r n s a r e r e f l e c t e d i n t h e j u n i o r
h i g h a n d e l e m e n t a r y s c h o o l s — h e a v i l y N e g r o i n t h e e a s t e r n p a r t
N OTE 1: T h i s d o e s n o t i n c l u d e M e t r o p o l i t a n H i g h , a s p e c i a l i z e d
v o c a t i o n a l s c h o o l , w h i c h f o r y e a r s h a s s e r v e d t h e
e n t i r e D i s t r i c t . T h e r e i s n o s e g r e g a t i o n p r o b l e m r e l a t i n g t o
t h i s s c h o o l .
1 896
-6-
899
o f t h e D i s t r i c t , a m i x t u r e i n t h e c e n t r a l p o r t i o n , a n d h e a v i l y
w h i t e i n t h e w e s t e r n p a r t o f t h e D i s t r i c t .
T h e s c h o l a s t i c p o p u l a t i o n o f t h e D i s t r i c t , u s i n g t h e l a t e n t
f i g u r e s a v a i l a b l e a s r e f l e c t e d b y D i s t r i c t a s s i g n m e n t s i n J u l y
1968, i s 23, 113. O f t h e s e , 15,063 (65. 2% ) a r e w h i t e , a n d
8,050 (34. 8%) a r e N e g r o . ( D f . E x . 6, p . 5)
A s o f J u l y 1968 ( p a g e 7 o f t h e s a m e E x h i b i t ) i t i s i n d i c a t e d
t h a t f o r t h e y e a r 1968-69 a t o t a l o f 1,398 N e g r o s t u d e n t s w o u l d
a t t e n d f o r m e r l y a l l o r p r e d o m i n a n t l y w h i t e s c h o o l s ; i n t h e
e l e m e n t a r y s c h o o l s , 956 N e g r o s t u d e n t s w o u l d d o s o , m a k i n g a
t o t a l o f N e g r o e s a t t e n d i n g f o r m e r l y a l l o r p r e d o m i n a n t l y w h i t e
s c h o o l s o f 2, 354.
DEVELOPM ENTS S IN C E THE D E C I S I O N BY THE COURT OF A P P E A L S FOR THE
E IG H T H C I R C U I T I N T H I S CASE DECEMBER 15, 1966. CLARK V . BOARD
OF E D U C A T IO N OF L I T T L E ROCK SCHOOL D I S T . , S U P R A .
T h e L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l B o a r d , o n A u g u s t 29, 1966, a p p r o x i
m a t e l y f o u r m o n t h s b e f o r e t h e C o u r t o f A p p e a l s d e c i s i o n , e n t e r e d
i n t o a n e m p l o y m e n t a g r e e m e n t w i t h a t e a m o f e x p e r t s f r o m O r e g o n
t o m a k e a s t u d y a n d o f f e r r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s a s t o a s a t i s f a c t o r y
d e s e g r e g a t i o n p l a n t o b e u s e d i n t h e L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l S y s t e m .
T h e c o s t w a s a p p r o x i m a t e l y $ 25, 000. T h a t g r o u p f i l e d i t s r e p o r t
o f 203 p a g e s w i t h t h e B o a r d i n M a y 1967, a n d t h r o u g h o u t t h e
h e a r i n g i s r e f e r r e d t o a s t h e " O r e g o n R e p o r t . " ( D f . E x . 7)
B r i e f l y , t h i s r e p o r t r e c o m m e n d e d a s o - c a l l e d e d u c a t i o n a l
p a r k s y s t e m , i n c l u d i n g t h e c r e a t i o n o f o n e s e n i o r h i g h s c h o o l
f o r t h e e n t i r e D i s t r i c t , i n v o l v i n g s o m e 5,000 o r m o r e s t u d e n t s ,
t h e p a i r i n g o f M a n n w i t h M e t r o p o l i t a n H i g h S c h o o l , t h e c l o s i n g
o f a n u m b e r o f o l d e r s c h o o l s a n d t h e c o n s t r u c t i o n o f s e v e r a l
n e w o n e s . T h e p r i c e t a g t o i m p l e m e n t t h e r e p o r t w a s e s t i m a t e d
t o b e i n e x c e s s o f t e n m i l l i o n d o l l a r s .
Memorandum Opinion
-7-
898
T h e L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l S u p e r i n t e n d e n t , M r . P a r s o n s ,
c r i t i c i z e d t h e r e p o r t b e c a u s e i t r e q u i r e d t h e d e v e l o p m e n t o f a n
e x t e n s i v e s y s t e m o f t r a n s p o r t a t i o n a n d t h e c o m p l e t e a b a n d o n m e n t
o f t h e n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l c o n c e p t . H e c o n s i d e r e d t h e t e n
m i l l i o n d o l l a r c o s t f i g u r e t o b e e x t r e m e l y c o n s e r v a t i v e , a n d
t h o u g h t t h a t i m p l e m e n t a t i o n o f t h e r e p o r t w o u l d c o s t c o n s i d e r
a b l y m o r e .
O n A u g u s t 31, 1967, t h e S c h o o l B o a r d d i r e c t e d S u p e r i n t e n d e n t
P a r s o n s t o p r e p a r e a l o n g r a n g e p l a n f o r d e s e g r e g a t i o n f o r t h e
L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l D i s t r i c t a n d t o s u b m i t t h e p l a n n o t l a t e r
t h a n J a n u a r y 25, 1968. I t a p p e a r s i n t h e r e c o r d a s D e f e n d a n t s '
E x h i b i t 10.
M r . P a r s o n s ' p l a n w o u l d h a v e d e s e g r e g a t e d t h e s e n i o r h i g h
s c h o o l s t h r o u g h s o - c a l l e d s t r i p z o n i n g f r o m e a s t t o w e s t ? c l o s e d
d o w n H o r a c e M a n n , t h e a l l - N e g r o s c h o o l o n t h e e a s t s i d e ; a n d
b u i l t a d d i t i o n s t o P a r k v i e w a n d H a l l i n o r d e r t o a c h i e v e a
r e a s o n a b l e r a c i a l r a t i o i n t h o s e h i g h s c h o o l s .
M r . P a r s o n s a l s o r e c o m m e n d e d t h e c r e a t i o n o f w h a t h e c a l l e d
t h e A l p h a C o m p l e x , w h i c h w o u l d h a v e i n v o l v e d t h e c l o s i n g o f f o u r
g r a m m a r s c h o o l b u i l d i n g s o n t h e e a s t s i d e o f M a i n S t r e e t , a n d
w h i c h w o u l d h a v e r e s u l t e d i n t h e c r e a t i o n o f a r e a s o n a b l e r a c i a l
r a t i o a t t h e e l e m e n t a r y l e v e l i n t h i s s e c t i o n . H e a l s o r e c o m m e n d
e d t h e c r e a t i o n o f t h e s o - c a l l e d B e t a C o m p l e x w h i c h i n v o l v e d
t h e G a r l a n d , L e e , S t e p h e n s , F r a n k l i n a n d O a k h u r s t S c h o o l s ,
a c o m p l e x o u t o f t h e s e f i v e s c h o o l s , b e c a u s e o n e o f t h e s e
s c h o o l s ( S t e p h e n s ) w a s a l l - N e g r o , a n d t h e o t h e r s w e r e p r e
d o m i n a n t l y w h i t e . B y p a i r i n g o r c o n s o l i d a t i n g t h e s e s c h o o l s
a r e a s o n a b l e r a c i a l b a l a n c e w o u l d b e a c h i e v e d i n t h i s p a r t i c u l a r
a r e a i n t h e c e n t r a l p o r t i o n o f t h e D i s t r i c t .
H i s r e p o r t d i d n o t a t t e m p t t o d e a l w i t h t h e j u n i o r h i g h
Memorandum Opinion
-8-
899
Memorandum Opinion
)
p r o b l e m b e c a u s e h e s t a t e d t h a t " a s o l u t i o n f o r t h i s a t t h a t
t i m e e s c a p e d u s , a n d X am n o t s u r e b u t t h a t i t s t i l l e s c a p e s
u s . "
T h e B o a r d a d o p t e d t h e p r o p o s a l a n d c a l l e d f o r a b o n d i s s u e
f o r s o m e t h i n g i n e x c e s s o f f i v e m i l l i o n d o l l a r s t o i m p l e m e n t
t h e p l a n a n d p r o p o s e d a m i l l a g e r a t e o f 50 m i l l s . T h e e l e c t i o n
w a s i n M a r c h 1968, a n d t h e v o t e r s r e j e c t e d t h e m i l l a g e i n c r e a s e .
S o m e o f t h e s c h o o l d i r e c t o r s w h o h a d v o t e d f o r a d o p t i o n o f t h e
P a r s o n s R e p o r t w e r e d e f e a t e d . A l l p a r t i e s c o n c e d e t h a t t h e
n e g a t i v e v o t e a t t h i s e l e c t i o n w a s i n e f f e c t a d e f e a t o f t h e
P a r s o n s P l a n , w h i c h w a s t h e p r i m a r y i s s u e a t t h e e l e c t i o n . A
s i m i l a r f a t e h a d a l r e a d y b e f a l l e n t h e O r e g o n P l a n .
THE ZO N IN G PLAN F I L E D BY THE BOARD NOVEMBER 15, 1968.
A t t h e D e c e m b e r h e a r i n g s P a r s o n s t e s t i f i e d t h a t t h e o n l y
f e a s i b l e a l t e r n a t i v e t o t h e p r e s e n t f r e e d o m o f c h o i c e p r o c e d u r e
i s g e o g r a p h i c a t t e n d a n c e z o n e s . D e f e n d a n t s ' E x h i b i t 22 i s a m a p
s h o w i n g h i g h s c h o o l , j u n i o r h i g h s c h o o l , a n d e l e m e n t a r y
a t t e n d a n c e z o n e s t h e S c h o o l B o a r d p r o p o s e s .
I n d i s c u s s i n g D e f e n d a n t s ' E x h i b i t 22 P a r s o n s s a i d t h e r e a r e
e x c e p t i o n s t o c e r t a i n s t u d e n t s r e s i d i n g i n t h e s e z o n e s . O n e i s
t h a t M e t r o p o l i t a n T e c h n i c a l H i g h s e r v e s t h e w h o l e D i s t r i c t t h e
s e c o n d i s t h a t s i n c e t h e r e w o u l d b e a d e c i d e d i n c r e a s e i n
f a c u l t y d e s e g r e g a t i o n t h a t a l l t e a c h e r s d e s i r i n g t o d o s o m a y
e n r o l l t h e i r c h i l d r e n i n t h e s c h o o l o r s c h o o l s w h e r e t h o s e
t e a c h e r s a r e a s s i g n e d t o t e a c h . T h i s w o u l d a s s i s t i n a s s i g n i n g
t e a c h e r s a n d i n r e c r u i t i n g t e a c h e r s .
A n o t h e r e x c e p t i o n w a s t h a t a l l s t u d e n t s p r e s e n t l y i n t h e
e i g h t h g r a d e i n j u n i o r h i g h s c h o o l l e v e l a n d a l l s t u d e n t s w h o
a r e p r e s e n t l y i n t h e t e n t h a n d e l e v e n t h g r a d e s i n s e n i o r h i g h
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Memorandum Opinion
s c h o o l l e v e l w o u l d b e g i v e n a c h o i c e t o e i t h e r a t t e n d t h e
a p p r o p r i a t e s c h o o l i n t h e g e o g r a p h i c z o n e w h e r e t h e y
r e s i d e o r c o n t i n u e t o a t t e n d t h e s c h o o l w h e r e t h e y a r e c u r r e n t l y
e n r o l l e d .
T h e r e a s o n f o r t h e s e l a s t e x c e p t i o n s — t h a t i s , i n t h e
j u n i o r a n d s e n i o r h i g h — i s t h a t t h e p u p i l s i n t h e 11t h g r a d e ,
f o r e x a m p l e , h a v e r e l a t e d t h e m s e l v e s t o c o - c u r r i c u l a r a n d e x t r a
c u r r i c u l a r a c t i v i t i e s . T h e 11t h g r a d e s t u d e n t s h a v e p r o b a b l y
a l r e a d y o r d e r e d t h e i r i n v i t a t i o n s a n d r i n g s . T h e r e a r e p u p i l s
i n t h e 10t h g r a d e w h o h a v e b e e n e l e c t e d t o t h e p e p c l u b s , a r e
p l a y i n g i n t h e b a n d , o r p a r t i c i p a t i n g i n a t h l e t i c s , a n d M r .
P a r s o n s f e e l s t h a t t h e y h a v e a p r e - e m p t i v e r i g h t t o r e m a i n i n
t h a t s c h o o l i f t h e y d e s i r e t o d o s o u n t i l g r a d u a t i o n .
A t t h e j u n i o r h i g h l e v e l t h e 7t h g r a d e s t u d e n t h a s r e l a t e d
h i m s e l f s o m e w h a t t o t h e s c h o o l , . ' b u t h e h a s n o t d o n e s o a s
e f f e c t i v e l y a s h a s t h e 8t h g r a d e s t u d e n t . C o n s e q u e n t l y , h e
f e e l s t h a t t h e 8t h g r a d e s t u d e n t a t t h e j u n i o r h i g h s c h o o l
l e v e l s h o u l d b e p e r m i t t e d t o f i n i s h t h e 9t h g r a d e a t t h a t j u n i o r
h i g h s c h o o l .
I n e x p l a n a t i o n o f t h e p l a n p r e s e n t e d N o v e m b e r 15, P a r s o n s
s a i d h e k n o w s o f n o p l a n t h a t c o u l d b e p u t i n t o o p e r a t i o n w i t h i n
t h e r e a s o n a b l y n e a r f u t u r e t h a t w o u l d n o t i n v o l v e a n e x p e n d i t u r e
o f m o n e y , o t h e r t h a n a n e i g h b o r h o o d g e o g r a p h i c z o n i n g p l a n w h i c h
w o u l d a c t u a l l y m a k e a m o r e e f f e c t i v e a n d m o r e e f f i c i e n t u s e o f
e x i s t i n g f a c i l i t i e s a n d c o u l d b e a d m i n i s t e r e d i n a m o r e e f f e c t i v e
a n d i m p a r t i a l m a n n e r . I t i n v o l v e s a n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l c o n c e p t
w h i c h g i v e s a c l o s e r r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n t h e p a r e n t s a n d p a t r o n s
o f a n y s c h o o l .
T h e L i t t l e R o c k S y s t e m , h e s a i d , i s p r e s e n t l y o p e r a t i n g
u n d e r t h e m o s t r e s t r i c t i v e c u r r e n t o p e r a t i n g b u d g e t t h a t h a s
-10-
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Memorandum Opinion
b e e n e x p e r i e n c e d i n t h e l a s t s e v e n y e a r s . T h e D i s t r i c t h a s n o
a v a i l a b l e f u n d s f o r a d d i t i o n a l e x p e n s e s . I t h a s a c o n t i n g e n c y
f u n d i n n e x t y e a r ' s b u d g e t o f $ 135, 000. N o r m a l l y t h e B o a r d
t r i e s t o c a r r y a c o n t i n g e n c y f u n d o f 2- 1/ 2% o f t h e t o t a l b u d g e t —
$ 135,000 i s s l i g h t l y l e s s t h a n 1% .
M r . P a r s o n s r e f e r r e d t o M r . W a l k e r ' s e s t i m a t e o f t h e c o s t
2
o f $500,000 f o r t r a n s p o r t a t i o n , a n d M r . P a r s o n s s a i d t h a t t h e r e
i s n o w a y i n t h e w o r l d t o s q u e e z e t h e L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l
D i s t r i c t ' s b u d g e t a n d g e t t h a t m u c h l e f t o v e r .
THE F A C U L T Y .
T h e S c h o o l D i s t r i c t ' s d e s e g r e g a t i o n p r o p o s a l a s r e l a t i n g
t o t h e f a c u l t y i s s e t f o r t h i n D e f e n d a n t s ' E x h i b i t 23. 18% o f
t h e t o t a l h i g h s c h o o l f a c u l t y i s N e g r o a n d 82% w h i t e ; 27% o f
t h e j u n i o r h i g h s c h o o l f a c u l t y i s N e g r o a n d 73% w h i t e ; a n d a t
t h e e l e m e n t a r y l e v e l 35% i s N e g r o a n d 65% w h i t e . U n d e r t h e p l a n
f o r t h e f u t u r e a s s h o w n o n D e f e n d a n t s ' E x h i b i t 24 t h e a c t u a l
n u m b e r ■o f w h i t e a n d N e g r o t e a c h e r s a n d t h e n u m b e r o f t r a n s f e r s
i n v o l v e d i n o r d e r t o a c h i e v e t h e o b j e c t i v e s s o u g h t i s s h o w n .
T h e r e i s a v a r i a t i o n , b u t i n n o c a s e i s t h e r e l e s s t h a n 15% n o r
m o r e t h a n 45% o f e a c h f a c u l t y N e g r o . T h e r e i s a m i n i m u m o f 55%
o f e a c h f a c u l t y w h i t e , a n d a m a x i m u m o f 85% .
THE SCHOOL S T A F F .
T h e r e a r e s e v e n m e m b e r s o f t h e L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l B o a r d .
# £ . P a t t e r s o n , o n e o f t h e m e m b e r s i s a N e g r o ; t h e o t h e r
s i x m e m b e r s a r e w h i t e .
T h e S u p e r i n t e n d e n t , M r . P a r s o n s , i s w h i t e , a s i s t h e D e p u t y
S u p e r i n t e n d e n t , M r . F a i r . T h e A s s i s t a n t S u p e r i n t e n d e n t i n C h a r g e
N OTE 2: S i n c e t h i s i s s t a t e d t o b e a n a n n u a l c o s t , i t
a p p a r e n t l y d o e s n o t i n c l u d e t h e i n i t i a l c a p i t a l
i n v e s t m e n t i n t h e b u s e s t h a t w o u l d b e n e e d e d .
-11-
902
Memorandum Opinion
o f I n s t r u c t i o n , M r . F o r t e n b e r r y , i s w h i t e , a s i s t h e A s s i s t a n t
S u p e r i n t e n d e n t i n C h a r g e o f B u s i n e s s A f f a i r s , a n d A s s i s t a n t S u p e r
i n t e n d e n t i n C h a r g e o f R e s e a r c h a n d P u p i l P e r s o n n e l . T h e A s s i s t
a n t S u p e r i n t e n d e n t i n C h a r g e o f P e r s o n n e l i s M r . F o w l e r , a N e g r o .
M r . F o w l e r ' s p r i m a r y r e s p o n s i b i l i t y c o n c e r n s t h e a c t u a l e m p l o y m e n t
o f a n d a s s i g n m e n t o f p r i n c i p a l s a n d o t h e r m e m b e r s o f a l l
p e r s o n n e l w h o a r e t o b e e m p l o y e d b y t h e s c h o o l s y s t e m .
M r . W i n s l o w D r u m m o n d , one o f t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d , a n d
M r . P a t t e r s o n , t h e N e g r o m e m b e r , v o t e d a g a i n s t t h e p l a n s u b m i t t e d
t o t h e C o u r t . M r . D r u m m o n d t e s t i f i e d t h a t t h e p r i m a r y r e a s o n
h e v o t e d a g a i n s t i t w a s b e c a u s e t h e B o a r d h a d a s k e d t h e S u p e r i n
t e n d e n t a t i t s S e p t e m b e r m e e t i n g t o d r a w a p l a n w i t h i n c e r t a i n
p o l i c y g u i d e l i n e s , w h i c h p a r s o n s s u b m i t t e d t o t h e B o a r d O c t o b e r 10.
C e r t a i n c h a n g e s w e r e m a d e i n t h e p l a n b y t h e B o a r d b e f o r e i t
w a s s u b m i t t e d t o t h e C o u r t , a n d D r u m m o n d f e l t t h a t M r . P a r s o n s '
p l a n a s o f O c t o b e r 10 s h o u l d h a v e b e e n a d o p t e d b y t h e B o a r d .
H i s r e a s o n s , i n s o m e d e t a i l , w e r e a p a r t o f a p r e p a r e d s t a t e m e n t
w h i c h i s i n c l u d e d i n D e f e n d a n t s ' E x h i b i t 27 a s a p a r t o f t h e
m i n u t e s o f t h e m e e t i n g o f N o v e m b e r 15. A c t u a l l y , h e s a i d , t h e
o n l y d i f f e r e n c e o f a n y i m p o r t a n c e b e t w e e n t h e t w o p l a n s i s t h a t
-^He t e n t a t i v e p r o p o s a l b y M r . P a r s o n s o f O c t o b e r 10 w o u l d h a v e
i n c l u d e d 80 p u p i l s i n H a l l H i g h .
M r . D r u m m o n d d o e s t h i n k t h a t t h e B e t a C o m p l e x i s s t i l l a
f e a s i b l e p l a n f o r f u r t h e r i m p l e m e n t a t i o n o f d e s e g r e g a t i o n i n
t h e D i s t r i c t .
H e a g r e e d t h a t t h e r e w e r e n o s u r p l u s f u n d s i n t h e o p e r a t i n g
b u d g e t .
T h e c h a n g e i n t h e H a l l H i g h b o u n d a r y l i n e p r o p o s e d b y
M r . P a r s o n s O c t o b e r 10 a n d w h i c h w a s t h e p r i n c i p a l r e a s o n f o r
M r . D r u m m o n d ' s o p p o s i t i o n t o t h e a d o p t e d p l a n o f N o v e m b e r 15,
-12-
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i s s h o w n o n D e f e n d a n t s ' E x h i b i t 28. T h e c h a n g e i s i n t h e
s o u t h e a s t a r e a o f t h e H a l l H i g h z o n e , a n d t h i s l i n e ' w o u l d h a v e
e x t e n d e d i t f a r t h e r s o u t h e a s t , w i t h i n a f e w b l o c k s o f C e n t r a l
H i g h , p i c k i n g u p 76 N e g r o s t u d e n t s , m a k i n g a t o t a l o f 80.
T E S T IM O N Y BY THE E X P E R T S .
A s m i g h t b e e x p e c t e d , t e s t i m o n y o f t h e e x p e r t s c o r r e s p o n d e d
g e n e r a l l y w i t h t h e v i e w s o f t h e p a r t i e s w h o c a l l e d t h e m t o
t e s t i f y .
T h e S c h o o l B o a r d c a l l e d D r . E . C . S t i m b e r t , S u p e r i n t e n d e n t
o f S c h o o l s o f t h e M e m p h i s , T e n n e s s e e C i t y S y s t e m . H e h a s a n
e x t e n s i v e e d u c a t i o n a l b a c k g r o u n d . F o r t h e l a s t 22 y e a r s h e h a s
b e e n w i t h t h e M e m p h i s S c h o o l S y s t e m ; t h e l a s t 11 y e a r s a s
S u p e r i n t e n d e n t o f t h a t s y s t e m , a n d h a s 125,000 s t u d e n t s , a b o u t
50% N e g r o . T h e M e m p h i s s y s t e m o f a s s i g n i n g s t u d e n t s i s b a s e d
o n t h e n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l c o n c e p t .
P r o f e s s i o n a l l y h e d i f f e r s f r o m t h e p r o p o s a l o f D r . G o l d h a m m e r
t o a b a n d o n t h e n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l s y s t e m i n L i t t l e R o c k i n
f a v o r o f t h e e d u c a t i o n a l p a r k c o n c e p t . H e k n o w s o f n o p u b l i c
s c h o o l s y s t e m i n t h e n a t i o n t h a t h a s c o n v e r t e d i t s e n t i r e s y s t e m
t o a n e d u c a t i o n a l p a r k o p e r a t i o n , a l t h o u g h s o m e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t
e x p e r i m e n t i n g w i t h i t .
H e t h i n k s t h a t t h e i n v o l v e m e n t o f t h e p a r e n t s i n t h e
n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l s i s a d e f i n i t e a s s e t t o t h e s c h o o l s i n v o l v e d .
M o r e s u p p o r t i s r e c e i v e d f r o m p a r e n t s t h r o u g h P . T . A . a n d o t h e r
s c h o o l p r o g r a m s .
I f a c h i l d i s t r a n s p o r t e d t o s o m e d i s t a n c e a w a y f r o m h o m e
t h e r e i s a n e l e m e n t o f t i m e i n a d d i t i o n t o t h e e x p e n s e . T h e r e
i s a l a c k o f i n t e r e s t o n t h e p a r t o f t h e h o m e m t h a t s c h o o l
w h i c h i s m o r e r e m o t e f r o m t h e n e i g h b o r h o o d i n w h i c h t h e c h i l d
Memorandum Opinion
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904
Memorandum Opinion
r e s i d e s . I n t h e c a s e o f v e r y y o u n g c h i l d r e n w h o q u i t e o f t e n g e t
s i c k a t s c h o o l , i n t h e n e i g h b o r h o o d c o n c e p t t h e s c h o o l i s c l o s e
t o t h e h o m e o f t h e c h i l d a n d i t i s e a s y t o g e t i n t o u c h w i t h
t h e p a r e n t s o r n e i g h b o r s .
T h e A m e r i c a n A s s o c i a t i o n o f S c h o o l A d m i n i s t r a t o r s , o f w h i c h
h e i s a m e m b e r , m a d e a s t u d y o f t h i s p r o b l e m , a n d a t t h e c o n
c l u s i o n o f t h e s t u d y t h e r e w a s f u l l a g r e e m e n t o n t h e n e i g h b o r h o o d
s c h o o l p h i l o s o p h y a s f a r a s t h e a d m i n i s t r a t i v e u n i t ' f o r a c h i e v i n g
o p t i m u m e d u c a t i o n a l r e s u l t s .
H e h a s e x a m i n e d t h e f a c u l t y d e s e g r e g a t i o n p l a n t h a t
M r . P a r s o n s p r e s e n t e d t o t h e C o u r t . • I n h i s o p i n i o n i t i s a
t r e m e n d o u s l y a m b i t i o u s p r o g r a m . H e k n o w s o f n o s c h o o l s y s t e m
i n t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s t h a t h a s d e s e g r e g a t e d t h e f a c u l t i e s i n t h e
m a n n e r h e i s p r o p o s i n g f o r t h e c o m i n g y e a r , 1969.
I n h i s o p i n i o n , a f t e r s t u d y i n g t h e v a r i o u s p l a n s s u b m i t t e d
t o t h e C o u r t h e r e , h e k n o w s o f n o p l a n o t h e r t h a n g e o g r a p h i c a l
a t t e n d a n c e z o n e s t h a t w o u l d b e e d u c a t i o n a l l y s o u n d o r a d m i n i s t r a
t i v e l y f e a s i b l e .
T h e p l a i n t i f f s c a l l e d D r . K e i t h G o l d h a m m e r , D e a n o f t h e
S c h o o l o f E d u c a t i o n , O r e g o n S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y . H e h a s a P h . D .
d e g r e e f r o m t h a t i n s t i t u t i o n . H e h a s h a d e x t e n s i v e e x p e r i e n c e
a n d w a s o n e o f t h e r e s e a r c h t e a m w h i c h m a d e t h e s o - c a l l e d
O r e g o n R e p o r t i n L i t t l e R o c k . H e i s t h e a u t h o r o f p u b l i c a t i o n s .
I n L i t t l e R o c k h i s p r i m a r y r e s p o n s i b i l i t y w a s t o u n d e r t a k e t h e
d i r e c t i o n a n d s u p e r v i s i o n o f t h e f i e l d w o r k .
H i s b a s i c p o i n t o f d i s a g r e e m e n t w i t h M r . P a r s o n s i s t h e
d i s a g r e e m e n t o v e r t h e c o n t i n u a t i o n o f t h e n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l
c o n c e p t . H e s a i d t h a t i s n o t a n e d u c a t i o n a l c o n c e p t , b u t a n
a d m i n i s t r a t i v e c o n c e p t — t h e r e i s n o t h i n g t o l o s e e d u c a t i o n a l l y
b y a b o l i s h i n g t h e n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l c o n c e p t . H e d o e s n o t
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Memorandum Opinion
t h i n k t h e g e o g r a p h i c a t t e n d a n c e a r e a p l a n p r e p a r e d b y t h e D i s t r i c t
i s o n e t o a c c o m p l i s h d e s e g r e g a t i o n . H e d o e s n o t t h i n k i t w o u l d
i m p r o v e u p o n t h e p r e s e n t f r e e d o m o f c h o i c e s y s t e m . H e s u g g e s t s
p a i r i n g o f c e r t a i n s c h o o l s , w h i c h w o u l d r e q u i r e s o m e b u s i n g a t
t h e D i s t r i c t ' s e x p e n s e .
D r . G o l d h a m m e r r e s u m e d h i s t e s t i m o n y o n D e c e m b e r 24, a f t e r
t h e r e c e s s f r o m A u g u s t . H e s a i d t h a t a s f a r a s f a c u l t y d e s e g r e g a
t i o n i s c o n c e r n e d t h e B o a r d ' s p l a n s e e m e d t o b e a f e a s i b l e
a p p r o a c h ; a l t h o u g h i t d o e s n o t d o t h e e n t i r e j o b , i f i t i s
f o l l o w e d b y a c t i o n t h a t w o u l d r e l i e v e a n y i n e q u i t i e s t h a t
r e m a i n e d , c o m p l e t e f a c u l t y d e s e g r e g a t i o n c o u l d b e a c h i e v e d .
H e c r i t i c i z e s t h e s i t u a t i o n i n H a l l H i g h b e c a u s e o f t h e
f e w N e g r o e s e n r o l l e d t h e r e .
H e s a i d t h a t t h e B o a r d h a s t h r e e p l a n s t h a t h e h a s s e e n
w h i c h a r e s u p e r i o r t o t h e p l a n s u b m i t t e d t o t h e C o u r t u n d e r t h e
R e s o l u t i o n o f N o v e m b e r 15. T h e y a r e : t h e O r e g o n R e p o r t ,
M r . P a r s o n s ' P l a n , a n d t h e p l a n w h i c h b e c a m e k n o w n ' a s t h e
W a l k e r P l a n ( W a l k e r i s o n e o f c o u n s e l f o r p l a i n t i f f s ) .
H e d o u b t s t h a t t h e s u p e r i m p o s i n g t h e B e t a C o m p l e x u p o n
t h e p l a n r e p r e s e n t e d b y D e f e n d a n t s ' E x h i b i t 22 w o u l d b e f e a s i b l e
b e c a u s e i t w o u l d b e d o i n g t h e j o b i n a s e c t i o n o f t h e c o m m u n i t y
w i t h o u t e f f e c t o n t h e t o t a l c o m m u n i t y .
A l t h o u g h a m e m b e r o f t h e A m e r i c a n A s s o c i a t i o n o f S c h o o l
A d m i n i s t r a t o r s , h e i s i n d i s a g r e e m e n t w i t h t h e i r s u p p o r t o f t h e
n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l c o n c e p t .
T h e p l a i n t i f f s a l s o p r e s e n t e d a s a n e x p e r t , D r . D a n W.
D o d s o n , , w h o s e c r e d e n t i a l s a r e i m p r e s s i v e . H e i s c h a i r m a n o f
t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f E d u c a t i o n o f S o c i o l o g y a n d A n t h r o p o l o g y o f
t h e S c h o o l o f E d u c a t i o n a t N e w Y o r k U n i v e r s i t y . H e o b t a i n e d
h i s P h . D . f r o m t h a t i n s t i t u t i o n . H e a s s i s t e d t h e W a s h i n g t o n ,
-15-
906
D . C . s c h o o l b o a r d i n 1953-54 i n t h e d e s e g r e g a t i o n o f i t s
s c h o o l s . H e d e s i g n e d a p l a n f o r d e s e g r e g a t i o n f o r t h e N e w
R o c h e l l e S c h o o l S y s t e m i n t h e e a r l y 1960s , a n d s e r v e d a s a
c o n s u l t a n t i n t h e s t u d y o f t h e E n g l e w o o d , N e w J e r s e y s c h o o l
s y s t e m i n t h e d e s e g r e g a t i o n o f t h a t s y s t e m . H e m a d e a s t u d y
o f t h e s c h o o l s y s t e m o f M o u n t V e r n o n , N e w Y o r k a n d p r o p o s e d a
d e s e g r e g a t i o n p l a n w h i c h t h e S t a t e C o m m i s s i o n e r o f E d u c a t i o n
h a s o r d e r e d t o b e p u t i n t o e f f e c t . H e a l s o d i d a s t u d y o f t h e
O r a n g e , N e w J e r s e y s c h o o l s y s t e m a s a b a s i s f o r t h e N A A C P ' s
s u i t a g a i n s t t h a t d i s t r i c t . H e i s t h e D r . D o d s o n r e f e r r e d t o
i n t h e S e c o n d C i r c u i t C o u r t o f A p p e a l s c a s e i n v o l v i n g N e w
R o c h e l l e .
H e s a i d t h a t t h e n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l c o n c e p t n e v e r h a d a n y
i n t e g r i t y i n t h e e d u c a t i o n a l l i t e r a t u r e u n t i l a r o u n d 1920. I t
i s n o w a p l a c e w h e r e p e o p l e w h o a r e m o r e p r i v i l e g e d t r y t o h i d e
f r o m t h e e n c o u n t e r w i t h o t h e r s . I t h a s b e c o m e a n e x c l u s i v e
d e v i c e . H e w o u l d n o t d e s c r i b e t h e h i g h s c h o o l s s h o w n o n t h e
m a p , D e f e n d a n t s ' E x h i b i t 22, a s n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l s . N o h i g h
s c h o o l i n t h e c o m m u n i t y , n o r s e r i e s o f h i g h s c h o o l s , a r e
n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l s .
H e s a i d t h a t r e p o r t s h e h a d s t u d i e d s h o w e d t h a t N e g r o
y o u n g s t e r s i n a n i n t e g r a t e d s i t u a t i o n h a d d o n e b e t t e r t h a n o t h e r
N e g r o c h i l d r e n , a n d w h i t e c h i l d r e n h a v e n o t f a l l e n b e h i n d
b e c a u s e o f i n t e g r a t i o n .
H e d o e s n o t t h i n k y o u c a n h a v e a n e f f e c t i v e o r m e a n i n g f u l
i n t e g r a t i o n , e v e n t h o u g h t h e f a c u l t y b e i n t e g r a t e d , w i t h o u t
i n t e g r a t i o n o f i t s p u p i l s .
H e r e f e r r e d t o t h e E n g l e w o o d s c h o o l s y s t e m a n d W h i t e P l a i n s .
I n W h i t e P l a i n s , N e g r o c h i l d r e n w e r e s e n t b y b u s i n a l e a p f r o g
o p e r a t i o n b e y o n d t h e d e s e g r e g a t e d s c h o o l t o t h e o u t l y i n g s c h o o l s
Memorandum Opinion
-16-
907
w h e r e t h e r e w e r e a l l - w h i t e , s o t h a t e a c h s c h o o l r e f l e c t s b e t w e e n
10% a n d 30% N e g r o i n a c o m m u n i t y t h a t i s a b o u t 24% N e g r o c h i l d
p o p u l a t i o n .
P a i r i n g o f s c h o o l s h a s a l s o b e e n u s e d w i d e l y .
B u s i n g i s a c o m m o n p r a c t i c e i n e d u c a t i o n i n A m e r i c a .
C o m m e n t i n g o n t h e s o - c a l l e d P a r s o n s P l a n i n c o n n e c t i o n
w i t h h i g h s c h o o l d e s e g r e g a t i o n , i f d e s e g r e g a t i o n i s t o b e
a c c o m p l i s h e d t h e z o n e s w o u l d h a v e b e e n e a s t a n d w e s t r a t h e r
t h a n n o r t h a n d s o u t h .
H i s a t t e n t i o n w a s c a l l e d t o t h e s o - c a l l e d B e t a C o m p l e x ,
p a g e 34, D e f e n d a n t s ' E x h i b i t 10. H e t h i n k s t h i s w o u l d b e a
r a t h e r i m a g i n a t i v e a p p r o a c h t o d e a l i n g w i t h t h e p r o b l e m .
W h e n h e w a s a s k e d w h e t h e r D e f e n d a n t s ' E x h i b i t 22 r e f l e c t e d
a n o n - r a c i a l s y s t e m , h i s r e s p o n s e w a s t h a t i t a p p e a r e d t o h i m
t o b e a r a c i s t s c h o o l s y s t e m — i t w i l l r e s u l t i n t h e w e s t e n d o f
t o w n b e i n g w h i t e a n d t h e e a s t e n d o f t o w n N e g r o , a n d t h e n e x t
s t e p , i f i t f o l l o w s t h e h i s t o r y o f N e w Y o r k , w o u l d b e t h a t t h e
f r u s t r a t e d b l a c k s w i l l d e m a n d " t h e s e p a r a t i o n i n t o l o c a l c o n t r o l "
a n d " t h e y w i l l w a n t t o t a k e o v e r t h e s c h o o l s y s t e m f o r t h e m
s e l v e s a n d p r e s s f o r a p a r t h e i d e d u c a t i o n . "
O n c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n h e s t a t e d t h a t a l m o s t a l l t h e d e s e g r e g a
t i o n p l a n s h e h a d m e n t i o n e d a n d t h a t h e h a d a p a r t i n f o r m u l a t i n g
i n v o l v e d e i t h e r t h e c l o s i n g o f a N e g r o s c h o o l o r p r o v i d i n g
t r a n s p o r t a t i o n f o r t h e s t u d e n t s , o r b o t h . T h e s e i n v o l v e d s o m e
e x p e n s e .
H e d o e s n ' t k n o w h o w f a r s t u d e n t s w o u l d h a v e t o b e t r a n s
p o r t e d b y b u s i f t h e h i g h s c h o o l z o n e s o n D e f e n d a n t s ' E x h i b i t 22
h a d b e e n d r a w n e a s t t o w e s t , b u t h e k n e w i t w o u l d b e s e v e r a l
m i l e s . W h e n a s k e d w h e t h e r t h e P a r s o n s R e p o r t a n d t h e e x h i b i t s
i n i t r e f l e c t t h a t N e g r o s t u d e n t s l i v i n g i n t h e e a s t e r n s e c t i o n
Memorandum Opinion
-17-
908
o f t h e D i s t r i c t i f a s s i g n e d t o H a l l H i g h u n d e r a n e a s t - w e s t
z o n i n g p l a n w o u l d b e s i x , s e v e n , o r e i g h t m i l e s t o g o t o g e t
t o H a l l H i g h , h e s a i d t h a t h e h a d n o t e d t h a t t h a t f i g u r e h a d
b e e n " p a s s e d a r o u n d . "
H e d i s a g r e e s w i t h c e r t a i n s t a t e m e n t s p u b l i s h e d b y t h e
f o r m e r p r e s i d e n t o f H a r v a r d U n i v e r s i t y , D r . J a m e s B r y a n t C o n a n t ,
a n d a l s o c e r t a i n s t a t e m e n t s i n a p u b l i c a t i o n b y t h e H o n o r a b l e
H u b e r t H u m p h r e y , f o r m e r V i c e - P r e s i d e n t o f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s ,
p u b l i s h e d i n 1964.
H e k n o w s o f n o o t h e r s c h o o l d i s t r i c t w i t h a s h i g h a p r o p o r
t i o n o f N e g r o s t u d e n t s a s i n L i t t l e R o c k D i s t r i c t t h a t h a s u n d e r
t a k e n s o m a s s i v e a r e a s s i g n m e n t o f t e a c h e r s f o r t h e p u r p o s e o f
m o v i n g t o w a r d r a c i a l b a l a n c e , a s d i s c l o s e d i n t h e p l a n f i l e d i n
t h i s c a s e .
H e a g r e e s t h a t t h e r e i s a g o o d d e a l o f d i v e r s i t y o f p r o
f e s s i o n a l o p i n i o n c o n c e r n i n g t h e n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l c o n c e p t
a n d t h e e d u c a t i o n a l p a r k c o n c e p t . H e w o u l d a l s o a g r e e t h a t t h e r e
a r e a g r e a t m a n y p r o f e s s i o n a l e d u c a t o r s w i t h g o o d c r e d e n t i a l s
w h o w o u l d d i s a g r e e w i t h s o m e o f t h e i d e a s h e h a s e x p r e s s e d i n
h i s t e s t i m o n y .
THE A P P L I C A B L E LAW.
T h e S c h o o l B o a r d h a s f i l e d a p l a n i n v o l v i n g c o m p u l s o r y
g e o g r a p h i c a t t e n d a n c e z o n e s o n t h e p a r t o f t h e p u p i l s , u s i n g t h e
n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l c o n c e p t , a l t h o u g h a d m i t t e d l y t h a t c o n c e p t
h a s l e s s a p p l i c a b i l i t y t o h i g h s c h o o l s . O n t h e o t h e r h a n d , t h e
p l a i n t i f f s a t t a c k t h e n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l p r i n c i p l e , s a y i n g i t
h a s n o v a l i d i t y a n d t h a t t h e g e o g r a p h i c a t t e n d a n c e z o n e s s h o u l d
r u n l e n g t h w i s e t h e D i s t r i c t . T h i s , a s t h e y a d m i t , w o u l d i n v o l v e
c o m p u l s o r y t r a n s p o r t a t i o n o f s t u d e n t s b y b u s f o r d i s t a n c e s a t
Memorandum Opinion
-18-
909
Memorandum Opinion
l e a s t o f s i x t o e i g h t m i l e s . T h i s i s s o b e c a u s e t h e s c h o o l s
i n t h e c e n t r a l p a r t o f t h e C i t y , i n c l u d i n g C e n t r a l H i g h , a r e
l a r g e l y i n t e g r a t e d , a n d t h e g r e a t d i s p a r i t y b e t w e e n t h e r a c e s
e x i s t s i n t h e e x t r e m e e a s t e r n a n d w e s t e r n p a r t s . T h e r e f o r e ,
t r a n s p o r t a t i o n o f p u p i l s w o u l d c o n s i s t l a r g e l y o f t r a n s p o r t a t i o n
f r o m t h e e x t r e m e e a s t - t o - w e s t a n d v i c e v e r s a , t r a v e r s i n g t h e
c r o w d e d t r a f f i c c o n d i t i o n s o f t h e m i d d l e s e c t i o n , i n c l u d i n g t h e
d o w n t o w n b u s i n e s s d i s t r i c t . T h u s , h i g h s c h o o l p u p i l s f r o m
H o r a c e M a n n i n t h e e a s t w o u l d h a v e t o b e t r a n s p o r t e d p a s t
C e n t r a l t o H a l l H i g h i n t h e w e s t , o r v i c e v e r s a . T h e s a m e w o u l d
b e t r u e i n a l e s s e r d e g r e e w i t h t h e j u n i o r h i g h a n d e l e m e n t a r y
s c h o o l s .
A t t h e p r e s e n t t i m e t h e s c h o o l D i s t r i c t f u r n i s h e s n o
t r a n s p o r t a t i o n t o a n y s t u d e n t s . A l t h o u g h s o m e s t u d e n t s u s e
p u b l i c t r a n s p o r t a t i o n ( b u s ) , t h i s w o u l d n o t s e r v i c e a s c h o o l
s y s t e m s u c h a s p l a i n t i f f s p r o p o s e .
T h u s , t h e c e n t r a l i s s u e i n t h i s c a s e r a i s e d b y p l a i n t i f f s
i s w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e s c h o o l D i s t r i c t s h o u l d b e r e q u i r e d t o
a d o p t g e o g r a p h i c a l z o n e s r u n n i n g f r o m e a s t t o w e s t , r e g a r d l e s s
o f t h e e x p e n s e t o t h e D i s t r i c t a n d t h e c o n v e n i e n c e o f t h e p u p i l s .
T h i s C o u r t ' s s e a r c h o f t h e a u t h o r i t i e s h a s n o t d i s c l o s e d
a c a s e t h a t h a s r e q u i r e d c o m p u l s o r y b u s t r a n s p o r t a t i o n b y t h e
s c h o o l s y s t e m .
U n i t e d S t a t e s v . J e f f e r s o n C o u n t y B o a r d o f E d u c a t i o n , 372
F . 2d 836 (5 C i r . 1966) , i s o n e o f t h e m o s t w i d e l y c i t e d c a s e s
b y c o u n s e l f o r N e g r o p l a i n t i f f s i n s c h o o l c a s e s . I t s l o n g
o p i n i o n r a i s e d q u e s t i o n s a b o u t t h e n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l s y s t e m ,
b u t s a i d , a t p . 879:
" T h e n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l s y s t e m i s r o o t e d
d e e p l y i n A m e r i c a n c u l t u r e . W h e t h e r i t s
c o n t i n u e d u s e i s c o n s t i t u t i o n a l w h e n i t
-19-
910
Memorandum Opinion
l e a d s t o g r o s s l y i m b a l a n c e d s c h o o l s i s a
q u e s t i o n s o m e d a y t o b e a n s w e r e d b y t h e
S u p r e m e C o u r t , b u t t h a t q u e s t i o n i s n o t
p r e s e n t i n a n y o f t h e c a s e s b e f o r e t h i s
c o u r t .11 ( E m p h a s i s s u p p l i e d . )
A s t o t r a n s p o r t a t i o n o f s t u d e n t s , i t s i m p l y s a y s , p . 890:
" I f t r a n s p o r t a t i o n i s p r o v i d e d f o r w h i t e
c h i l d r e n , t h e s c h e d u l e s s h o u l d b e r e - r o u t e d
t o p r o v i d e f o r N e g r o c h i l d r e n . "
I n t h e t h r e e S u p r e m e C o u r t c a s e s d e c i d e d M a y 27, 1968—
G r e e n e v . C o u n t y S c h o o l B o a r d , 391 U . S . 430; R a n e y v . B o a r d o f
E d u c a t i o n , 391 U . S . 443; a n d M o n r o e v . B o a r d o f C o m m i s s i o n e r s ,
391 U . S . 450— n o r e f e r e n c e i s m a d e t o c o m p u l s o r y t r a n s p o r t a t i o n
o f s t u d e n t s . I n G r e e n e , p . 441, t h e C o u r t s a i d t h a t i n s t e a d o f
f r e e d o m o f c h o i c e , t h e B o a r d s h o u l d c o n s i d e r " r e a s o n a b l y a v a i l
a b l e o t h e r w a y s , s u c h f o r i l l u s t r a t i o n a s z o n i n g . . . . "
I n R a n e y , a t p . 448, t h e C o u r t s a i d :
" T h e B o a r d m u s t b e r e q u i r e d t o f o r m u l a t e a
n e w p l a n a n d , i n l i g h t o f o t h e r c o u r s e s
w h i c h a p p e a r o p e n t o t h e B o a r d , s u c h a s
z o n i n g , f a s h i o n s t e p s . . . . "
I n a c a s e f r o m t h e F i f t h C i r c u i t l a t e r t h a n J e f f e r s o n , s u p r a ,
B r o u s s a r d v . H o u s t o n I n d e p e n d e n t S c h o o l D i s t r i c t , 395 F . 2d 817
(5 C i r . 1968) , t h e c o u r t s a i d , a t p . 820:
" R a c i a l i m b a l a n c e i n a p a r t i c u l a r s c h o o l d o e s
n o t , i n i t s e l f , e v i d e n c e a d e p r i v a t i o n o f c o n
s t i t u t i o n a l r i g h t s . Z o n i n g p l a n s f a i r l y
a r r i v e d a t h a v e b e e n c o n s i s t e n t l y u p h e I d ,
t h o u g h r a c i a l i m b a l a n c e m i g h t r e s u l t . "
( C i t i n g c a s e s f r o m t h e F o u r t h , t h e F i r s t ,
a n d t h e T e n t h C i r c u i t s . )
H o w e v e r , i n A d a m s v . M a t t h e w s , 403 F . 2d 181 (5 C i r . 1968) ,
a n o t h e r p a n e l o f t h a t C i r c u i t s a i d , p . 188:
" I f i n a s c h o o l d i s t r i c t t h e r e a r e s t i l l a l l -
N e g r o s c h o o l s o r o n l y a s m a l l f r a c t i o n o f
N e g r o e s e n r o l l e d i n w h i t e s c h o o l s , o r n o
s u b s t a n t i a l i n t e g r a t i o n o f f a c u l t i e s a n d
s c h o o l a c t i v i t i e s , t h e n , a s a m a t t e r o f l a w
t h e e x i s t i n g p l a n f a i l s t o m e e t t h e c o n s t i t u
t i o n a l s t a n d a r d s a s e s t a b l i s h e d i n G r e e n e . . .
O n e a l t e r n a t i v e t o f r e e d o m o f c h o i c e i s t h e a s s i g n -
-20-
911
M e m o r a n d u m O p i n i o n
m e n t o f s t u d e n t s o n t h e b a s i s o f g e o g r a p h i c
a t t e n d a n c e z o n e s . I n a n a t t e n d a n c e z o n e
s y s t e m ( a s i n a f r e e d o m o f c h o i c e s y s t e m )
t h e s c h o o l a u t h o r i t i e s s h o u l d c o n s i d e r t h e
c o n s o l i d a t i o n o f c e r t a i n s c h o o l s , p a i r i n g o f
s c h o o l s , a n d a m a j o r i t y - t o - m i n o r i t y t r a n s f e r
p o l i c y a s m e a n s t o t h e e n d o f d i s e s t a b l i s h i n g
t h e d u a l s y s t e m . "
O n r e h e a r i n g t h e c o u r t s a i d , p . 190, i n s u g g e s t i n g c e r t a i n
m e a s u r e s t o b e c o n s i d e r e d :
" ( a ) L i b e r a l m a j o r i t y - t o - m i n o r i t y t r a n s f e r
p o l i c i e s , n o t w i t h s t a n d i n g t h e e x i s t e n c e
o f z o n e s ;
" ( b ) P r i n c i p a l , f a c u l t y , a n d s t a f f d e s e g r e g a
t i o n ; a n d
" ( c ) D e s e g r e g a t i o n o f a t h l e t i c a c t i v i t i e s . . . "
T h e m o s t r e c e n t c a s e o f t h e F i f t h C i r c u i t t h a t h a s b e e n
c a l l e d t o o u r a t t e n t i o n b y c o u n s e l f o r p l a i n t i f f s i s H e n r y v .
T h e C l a r k s d a l e M u n i c i p a l S e p a r a t e S c h o o l D i s t r i c t , ______ F . 2d ______
( M a r c h 6, 1969) . T h e c o u r t c r i t i c i z e d t h e g e o g r a p h i c a l z o n i n g
p l a n o f t h e b o a r d b e c a u s e t h e p l a n w o u l d o n l y p r o d u c e t o k e n
d e s e g r e g a t i o n . I t s a i d i f t h e r e w e r e s t i l l a l l - N e g r o s c h o o l s
o r o n l y a s m a l l f r a c t i o n o f N e g r o e s e n r o l l e d i n w h i t e s c h o o l s o r
n o s u b s t a n t i a l i n t e g r a t i o n o f f a c u l t i e s a n d s c h o o l a c t i v i t i e s ,
t h e n a s a m a t t e r o f l a w t h e e x i s t i n g p l a n f a i l s t o m e e t c o n
s t i t u t i o n a l s t a n d a r d s .
T h e c o u r t s a i d t h a t t h e b o a r d s h o u l d c o n s i d e r r e d r a w i n g
i t s a t t e n d a n c e z o n e b o u n d a r i e s , i n c o r p o r a t i n g t h e m a j o r i t y - t o -
m i n o r i t y t r a n s f e r p r o v i s i o n i n i t s p l a n , c l o s i n g a l l N e g r o
s c h o o l s , c o n s o l i d a t i n g a n d p a i r i n g s c h o o l s , r o t a t i n g p r i n c i p a l s ,
a n d t a k i n g " o t h e r " m e a s u r e s t o o v e r c o m e t h e d e f e c t s o f t h e p r e s e n t
s y s t e m .
I n n o n e o f t h e s e c a s e s f r o m t h e F i f t h C i r c u i t , w h i c h
a d m i t t e d l y h a s g o n e m u c h f u r t h e r t h a n a n y o t h e r c i r c u i t i n
d i s c u s s i n g p o s s i b l e a l t e r n a t i v e s t o f r e e d o m o f c h o i c e , h a s t h e
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Memorandum Opinion
c o u r t s u g g e s t e d c o m p u l s o r y t r a n s p o r t a t i o n o f p u p i l s b y b u s .
We c a n o n l y s u r m i s e , b u t p e r h a p s t h e o m i s s i o n i n a l l o f
t h e s e c a s e s o f c o m p u l s o r y b u s t r a n s p o r t a t i o n m a y b e d u e , a t
l e a s t i n p a r t , t o t h e n a t i o n a l p o l i c y s p e l l e d o u t b y C o n g r e s s
i n t h e C i v i l R i g h t s A c t o f 1964. T i t l e I V o f t h e A c t c o n f e r s
a u t h o r i t y o n t h e A t t o r n e y G e n e r a l t o i n i t i a t e c i v i l s u i t s t o
" f u r t h e r t h e o r d e r l y a c h i e v e m e n t o f d e s e g r e g a t i o n i n p u b l i c
e d u c a t i o n , " s u b j e c t t o t h i s p r o v i s i o n :
" . . . p r o v i d e d t h a t n o t h i n g h e r e i n s h a l l
e m p o w e r a n y o f f i c i a l o r c o u r t o f t h e U n i t e d
S t a t e s t o i s s u e a n y o r d e r s e e k i n g t o a c h i e v e
a r a c i a l b a l a n c e i r . a n y s c h o o l b y r e q u i r i n g
t h e t r a n s p o r t a t i o n o f p u p i l s , o r s t u d e n t s f r o m
o n e s c h o o l t o a n o t h e r o r o n e s c h o o l d i s t r i c t
t o a n o t h e r i n o r d e r t o a c h i e v e s u c h r a c i a l
b a l a n c e , o r o t h e r w i s e e n l a r g e t h e e x i s t i n g
p o w e r o f t h e c o u r t t o i n s u r e c o m p l i a n c e w i t h
c o n s t i t u t i o n a l s t a n d a r d s . " 78 S t a t . 248,
42 U . S . C . 2000c -6 (1964) .
I n C l a r k , s u p r a , p l a i n t i f f s w e r e s e e k i n g g e o g r a p h i c a l
a t t e n d a n c e a r e a s , a n d o n p . 666 t h e E i g h t h C i r c u i t c h a r a c t e r i z e d
a t t e n d a n c e a r e a s a s " t h i s a d m i t t e d l y c o n s t i t u t i o n a l a l t e r n a t i v e . "
THE C O U R T 'S C O N C L U S I O N S .
1. T h e B o a r d ' s Z o n i n g P l a n f o r P u p i l s .
A s s h o w n b y D e f e n d a n t s ' E x h i b i t 22, t h e B o a r d ' s p l a n f o r
g e o g r a p h i c a l a t t e n d a n c e z o n e s , a s s u m i n g t h e l e g a l i t y o f t h e
n e i g h b o r h o o d s c h o o l c o n c e p t , s e e m s f a i r l y a n d e q u i t a b l y d r a w n .
T h e r e i s n o i n d i c a t i o n o f g e r r y m a n d e r i n g . I t w i l l b e a p p r o v e d ,
w i t h t h e f o l l o w i n g e x c e p t i o n s :
( a ) T h e H a l l B o u n d a r y L i n e .
M r . P a r s o n s s u g g e s t e d i n h i s r e p o r t t o t h e B o a r d
d a t e d O c t o b e r 10 t h a t t h e s o u t h l i n e o f H a l l b e e x t e n d e d e a s t w a r d
t o a p o i n t n o t f a r f r o m C e n t r a l H i g h , t h e p u r p o s e b e i n g t o
i n c l u d e 80 N e g r o s t u d e n t s i n H a l l r a t h e r t h a n t h e f o u r w h o w o u l d
-22-
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Memorandum Opinion
b e i n c l u d e d u n d e r t h e D i s t r i c t ' s P l a n , E x h i b i t 22. T h i s
p r o p o s e d e x t e n s i o n o f t h e s o u t h l i n e o f H a l l e a s t w a r d i s s h o w n
o n D e f e n d a n t s ' E x h i b i t 28. T h e s o u t h e a s t l i n e o f H a l l w i l l b e
m o d i f i e d a c c o r d i n g t o D e f e n d a n t s ' E x h i b i t 28. T o p i n p o i n t t h i s
i s s u e f o r t h e b e n e f i t o f c o u n s e l a n d t h e C o u r t o f A p p e a l s ,
t h i s c h a n g e f r o m t h e B o a r d ' s P l a n i s g e r r y m a n d e r i n g p u r e a n d
s i m p l e , b u t i t i s j u s t i f i e d , w e t h i n k , t o i n c r e a s e i n t e g r a t i o n ,
w h i c h i s a l m o s t n o n - e x i s t e n t i n H a l l .
( b ) T h e B e t a C o m p l e x .
T h e r e a r e f i v e e l e m e n t a r y s c h o o l s n e a r t h e c e n t e r o f
t h e s y s t e m : F r a n k l i n , G a r l a n d , O a k h u r s t , S t e p h e n s , a n d L e e .
T h e y a r e c l o s e e n o u g h t o g e t h e r t o p e r m i t t h e i r c o n s o l i d a t i o n
o r p a i r i n g . T h e d i s p a r i t y o f i n t e g r a t i o n i n t h e s e s c h o o l s u n d e r
t h e p r o p o s e d z o n i n g p l a n c o n t r a s t e d w i t h t h e s o - c a l l e d B e t a
C o m p l e x P l a n i s s h o w n o n t h e t a b l e o n p a g e 1 o f C o u r t E x h i b i t 1:
E l e m e n t a r y Z o n i n g P l a n B e t a C o m p l e x
S c h o o l ______ N e g r o ________W h i t e N e g r o ______ W h i t e
P r i m a r y
F r a n k l i n 61 526 170 403
G a r l a n d 62 260 114 269
I n t e r m e d i a t e
O a k h u r s t 24 330 104 286
S t e p h e n s 313 34 144 396
S p e c i a l E d u c
L e e 70 219 30 40
T o t a l s 530 1,369 5 62 1, 394
GRAND TOTAL 1,899 1,956
D r . D o d s o n c h a r a c t e r i z e d t h e B e t a C o m p l e x a s a n i m a g i n a t i v e
a p p r o a c h t o s o l v i n g t h e i n t e g r a t i o n p r o b l e m o f t h e s e p a r t i c u l a r
s c h o o l s . We r e a l i z e t h a t D r . G o l d h a m m e r , a s w e l l a s M r . P a r s o n s ,
c r i t i c i z e d t h e a d o p t i o n o f t h e B e t a C o m p l e x u n l e s s s i m i l a r
a d j u s t m e n t s w e r e m a d e t h r o u g h o u t t h e s y s t e m . A s b e s t t h e C o u r t
c a n t e l l , t h i s o p p o s i t i o n i s p r i m a r i l y d u e t o t h e f a c t t h a t
t h e s e w i t n e s s e s f e e l t h a t t h e p a t r o n s o f t h e s e p a r t i c u l a r s c h o o l s
w i l l f e e l t h a t t h e y h a v e b e e n u n d u l y s i n g l e d o u t i n c o n t r a s t t o
-23
914
t h e o t h e r s c h o o l s i n t h e s y s t e m . T h e C o u r t d o e s n o t f e e l t h a t
t h e s e r e a s o n s a r e s u f f i c i e n t t o p r e v e n t a s o l u t i o n ' t o t h e
p r o b l e m i n t h e s e f i v e s c h o o l s a s s h o w n b y t h e t a b l e s a b o v e ,
a n d t h e C o u r t w i l l h o l d t h a t t h e s o - c a l l e d B e t a C o m p l e x i n v o l v
i n g t h e s e e l e m e n t a r y s c h o o l s m u s t b e i m p l e m e n t e d .
We r e a l i z e , h o w e v e r , t h a t s o m e c a p i t a l e x p e n d i t u r e s w i l l
b e i n v o l v e d , a n d i t i s p e r h a p s t o o l a t e , b o t h f o r t h e c a p i t a l
i m p r o v e m e n t s t o b e m a d e a n d t h e n e c e s s a r y a d m i n i s t r a t i v e p r o
c e d u r e s t o b e a c c o m p l i s h e d b y S e p t e m b e r o f 1969, a n d w e h o l d
t h a t t h e B e t a P l a n n e e d n o t b e p u t i n t o e f f e c t u n t i l S e p t e m b e r
1970.
( c ) T r a n s f e r s f r o m S c h o o l s w h e r e S t u d e n t ' s R a c e i s i n
t h e M a j o r i t y t o S c h o o l s w h e r e h i s R a c e i s i n t h e M i n o r i t y .
T h e B o a r d ' s P l a n w i l l b e f u r t h e r m o d i f i e d b y r e t e n t i o n
o f f r e e d o m o f c h o i c e f o r a n y N e g r o o r w h i t e s t u d e n t t o t r a n s f e r
f r o m a s c h o o l i n w h i c h h i s r a c e i s i n t h e m a j o r i t y t o a s c h o o l
i n w h i c h h i s r a c e i s i n t h e m i n o r i t y . S u c h t r a n s f e r s a r e t o
b e s u b j e c t t o t h e u s u a l p r o v i s i o n s a s t o o v e r c r o w d i n g , e t c .
T h i s w i l l p e r m i t N e g r o s t u d e n t s w h o o t h e r w i s e w o u l d b e
l o c k e d i n t o p r e d o m i n a n t l y N e g r o s c h o o l s b y a t t e n d a n c e z o n i n g
t o t r a n s f e r t o p r e d o m i n a n t l y w h i t e s c h o o l s . W h i t e s t u d e n t s a r e
g i v e n t h e s a m e p r i v i l e g e . T h a t s u c h p r o v i s i o n s a r e v a l i d i s
w e l l e s t a b l i s h e d b y t h e c a s e s .
T h e r e a r e o t h e r m i n o r e x c e p t i o n s t o t h e g e o g r a p h i c a l z o n i n g
t h a t a r e m e n t i o n e d i n t h e B o a r d ' s P l a n .
T e a c h e r s ' C h i l d r e n .
U n d e r t h e f a c u l t y p l a n a g o o d m a n y t e a c h e r s w i l l b e t r a n s
f e r r e d f r o m t h e s c h o o l s i n w h i c h t h e y n o w t e a c h . T h e p l a n
p r o v i d e s t h a t t e a c h e r s w h o d e s i r e t o d o s o m a y e n r o l l t h e i r
c h i l d r e n i n t h e s c h o o l s w h e r e t h e y ( t h e t e a c h e r s ) a r e a s s i g n e d .
Memorandum Opinion
-24
915
Memorandum Opinion
T h i s w i l l a f f e c t a s m a l l n u m b e r o f s t u d e n t s a n d m a y a i d t h e
s c h o o l s t a f f i n s e c u r i n g t h e c o o p e r a t i o n o f t h e t e a c h e r s t o
a c c e p t n e w p o s t s . We a p p r o v e i t .
S t u d e n t s P r e s e n t l y i n E i g h t h , T e n t h , a n d E l e v e n t h G r a d e s .
We t h i n k t h i s i s r e a s o n a b l e a n d w i l l c a u s e l e s s d i s r u p t i o n
a m o n g t h e s t u d e n t s w h o a r e a p p r o a c h i n g t h e e n d o f t h e i r j u n i o r
a n d s e n i o r h i g h s c h o o l y e a r s . T h i s i s a t e m p o r a r y s i t u a t i o n a n d
w i l l o n l y l a s t t w o y e a r s u n t i l t h e t e n t h g r a d e p u p i l s g r a d u a t e .
We t h i n k i t i s a r e a s o n a b l e e x c e p t i o n , a n d a p p r o v e i t .
2 . F a c u l t y a n d S t a f f .
T h e B o a r d h a s m a d e s u b s t a n t i a l a d v a n c e s i n t h e i n t e g r a
t i o n o f i t s f a c u l t y a n d s t a f f s i n c e t h e o p i n i o n o f t h e C o u r t o f
A p p e a l s i n C l a r k . M u c h m o r e p r o g r e s s h a s b e e n m a d e i n s t a f f
i n t e g r a t i o n t h a n i n d i c a t e d a b o v e i n t h i s o p i n i o n w h e r e r e f e r e n c e
w a s m a d e t o p e r s o n n e l a s s o c i a t e d w i t h t h e S u p e r i n t e n d e n t a n d
h i s a s s i s t a n t s .
T h e p r o p o s a l o f t h e B o a r d m a d e a t t h e s u g g e s t i o n o f t h e
C o u r t m e a n s t h a t n o s c h o o l i n t h e D i s t r i c t w i l l h a v e a n a l l -
N e g r o n o r a n a l l - w h i t e f a c u l t y . T h e n u m b e r o f N e g r o t e a c h e r s
w i t h i n e a c h s c h o o l w i l l r a n g e f r o m a m i n i m u m o f 15% t o a
m a x i m u m o f 45% . T h e n u m b e r o f w h i t e t e a c h e r s w i t h i n e a c h
s c h o o l w i l l r a n g e f r o m a m i n i m u m o f 55% t o a m a x i m u m o f 85% .
T h e C o u r t h a s n o h e s i t a n c y i n a p p r o v i n g t h a t p l a n . T h e
e x p e r t s , D r s . D o d s o n , G o l d h a m m e r a n d S t i m b e r t , a l l a g r e e d t h a t
i t w a s a m o s t a m b i t i o u s p r o g r a m t o b e a c c o m p l i s h e d i n o n e y e a r ,
a n d o n e o r m o r e o f t h e m e x p r e s s e d s o m e c o n c e r n a b o u t t h e
D i s t r i c t ' s a b i l i t y t o i m p l e m e n t i t . S u p e r i n t e n d e n t P a r s o n s ,
h o w e v e r , f i r m l y e x p r e s s e d h i s c o n v i c t i o n t h a t i t w o u l d b e
i m p l e m e n t e d b y S e p t e m b e r , a n d w e h a v e n o r e a s o n t o d o u b t h i s
i n t e n t i o n s i n t h a t r e g a r d .
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C O M PA R ISO N OF IN T E G R A T IO N UNDER FREEDOM O F C H O IC E AND Z O N I N G .
T h e C o u r t r e q u e s t e d c o u n s e l f o r t h e S c h o o l B o a r d t o s u b m i t
t a b l e s s h o w i n g t h e n u m b e r o f N e g r o s t u d e n t s a t t e n d i n g f o r m e r l y
a l l - w h i t e s c h o o l s a n d w h i t e s t u d e n t s w h o w o u l d a t t e n d f o r m e r l y
a l l - N e g r o s c h o o l s u n d e r t h e p r o p o s e d z o n i n g p l a n i n c o n t r a s t t o
t h e n u m b e r o f p u p i l s i n t h e s a m e c a t e g o r i e s i n t h e l a s t f e w
y e a r s u n d e r f r e e d o m o f c h o i c e . T h i s a p p e a r s i n t h e r e c o r d a s
C o u r t E x h i b i t 2 .
T h e f i g u r e s i n t h e b e f o r e a n d a f t e r c o l u m n s s h o w t h a t a s o f
J u l y 1968 t h e r e w e r e 1,398 N e g r o s t u d e n t s a s s i g n e d t o f o r m e r l y
a l l - w h i t e s c h o o l s a s c o n t r a s t e d t o 1,133 u n d e r t h e B o a r d ’ s P l a n
f o r g e o g r a p h i c a l z o n i n g t o g o i n t o e f f e c t i n S e p t e m b e r 1969.
T h e s e t o t a l s a r e n o t s t r i c t l y c o m p a r a b l e b e c a u s e t h e J u l y 1968
c o l u m n s h o w s 131 N e g r o s t u d e n t s i n M e t r o p o l i t a n ( t h e t e c h n i c a l
h i g h s c h o o l ) , a n d t h e t o t a l f o r S e p t e m b e r 1969 u n d e r z o n i n g
o m i t s a n y N e g r o s t u d e n t s w h o w o u l d a t t e n d M e t r o p o l i t a n . W hy
t h e E x h i b i t w a s p r e p a r e d i n t h i s m a n n e r w e d o n o t k n o w — b u t , a s
s t a t e d a b o v e , M e t r o p o l i t a n s e r v e s t h e e n t i r e D i s t r i c t , a n d a s
F o o t n o t e C r e f l e c t s , t h e B o a r d a n t i c i p a t e s t h a t a n u m b e r o f
N e g r o e s w i l l a t t e n d M e t r o p o l i t a n u n d e r t h e z o n i n g p l a n .
U p t o t h e p r e s e n t t i m e n o w h i t e s t u d e n t s h a v e c h o s e n t o
a t t e n d a n y f o r m e r l y a l l - N e g r o s c h o o l s . T h e B o a r d E x h i b i t
r e f l e c t s t h a t i t e x p e c t s 182 w h i t e s t u d e n t s t o b e i n t h a t
c a t e g o r y t h i s c o m i n g S e p t e m b e r .
ELEMENTARY S C H O O L S .
T h e n u m b e r o f N e g r o e s a s s i g n e d t o f o r m e r l y a l l - w h i t e
s c h o o l s u n d e r f r e e d o m o f c h o i c e i n 1968 w a s 956, w i t h n o w h i t e s
a t t e n d i n g f o r m e r l y a l l - N e g r o s c h o o l s . U n d e r t h e p r o p o s e d z o n i n g
p l a n t h e r e w o u l d b e 1,176 N e g r o s t u d e n t s a t t e n d i n g f o r m e r l y a l l -
w h i t e s c h o o l s , a n d 199 w h i t e s t u d e n t s i n f o r m e r l y a l l - N e g r o
- 26-
Memorandum Opinion
917
Memorandum Opinion
s c h o o l s . T h e s e f i g u r e s d o n o t t a k e i n t o c o n s i d e r a t i o n t h e
i m p l e m e n t a t i o n o f t h e B e t a C o m p l e x .
T h e t o t a l n u m b e r o f N e g r o p u p i l s a t t e n d i n g a l l - w h i t e s c h o o l s
i n 1968 w a s 2, 354, a n d u n d e r t h e z o n i n g p l a n i t i s a n t i c i p a t e d
t h a t t h e t o t a l N e g r o e s a t t e n d i n g f o r m e r l y a l l - w h i t e s c h o o l s
( a g a i n o m i t t i n g N e g r o e s a t t e n d i n g M e t r o p o l i t a n H i g h , b u t w h i c h
w e r e i n c l u d e d i n t h e 2, 354 f i g u r e ) w i l l b e 2, 309, a n d 381 w h i t e
s t u d e n t s w i l l a t t e n d f o r m e r l y p r e d o m i n a n t l y N e g r o s c h o o l s , m a k i n g
a t o t a l n u m b e r o f p u p i l s a t t e n d i n g s c h o o l s i n w h i c h t h e i r r a c e
i s i n t h e m i n o r i t y 2, 690.
W h i l e w e a r e s u r e t h e s e f i g u r e s a r e a c c u r a t e a s f a r a s t h e
e x p e r i e n c e f o r 1968, a n d t h e l o c a t i o n o f p u p i l s b y r a c e i n t h e
a t t e n d a n c e z o n e s p l a n , t h e s e f i g u r e s d o n o t a c c u r a t e l y d e p i c t
w h a t w i l l o c c u r u n d e r t h e z o n i n g p l a n . I n t h e f i r s t p l a c e ,
t h e y d o n o t t a k e i n t o c o n s i d e r a t i o n t h e C o u r t ' s m o d i f i c a t i o n o f
t h e p l a n s o a s t o p e r m i t a n y N e g r o c h i l d w h e r e v e r h e l i v e s i n
t h e D i s t r i c t t h e c h o i c e t o t r a n s f e r t o a s c h o o l i n w h i c h h i s
r a c e i s i n t h e m i n o r i t y . H o w m a n y t h a t w i l l b e i t i s i m p o s s i b l e
t o f o r e t e l l , e x c e p t t h a t o n t h e b a s i s o f p a s t e x p e r i e n c e i t
s h o u l d b e a c o n s i d e r a b l e n u m b e r (2,354 i n 1968, a l t h o u g h t h a t
f i g u r e p r o b a b l y i n c l u d e s s o m e N e g r o e s w h o r e s i d e i n z o n e s w h e r e
t h e i r r a c e i s i n t h e m i n o r i t y a n d w h o w o u l d b e i n e l i g i b l e t o
e x e r c i s e t h e m a j o r i t y - t o - m i n o r i t y t r a n s f e r c h o i c e ) . T h e w i t h
h o l d i n g o f a p p l i c a t i o n o f t h e z o n i n g p l a n t o p u p i l s i n g r a d e s
8, 10, a n d 11, a s w e l l a s t h e e x p i r a t i o n o f t h i s e x e m p t i o n , a l s o
w i l l h a v e a n i n f l u e n c e o n t h e f i g u r e s , a l t h o u g h i t i s i m p o s s i b l e
t o b e d e f i n i t e a s t o t h e i r n u m b e r . T h e n u m b e r o f w h i t e s t u d e n t s
w h o a r e r e q u i r e d t o a t t e n d f o r m e r l y a l l - N e g r o s c h o o l s i s , o f
c o u r s e , a n e t g a i n o f t h e m i x t u r e o f r a c e s i n t h e s c h o o l s y s t e m .
-27-
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Memorandum Opinion
C O N S T R U C T IO N O F S C H O O L S .
We r e a l i z e t h a t s o m e o f t h e c a s e s m a k e a d i s t i n c t i o n
b e t w e e n s c h o o l i n t e g r a t i o n t h a t o r i g i n a t e d d e j u r e a s c o n t r a s t e d
t o t h a t w h i c h c a m e a b o u t a n d e x i s t s d e f a c t o . T h e p a r e n t s o f
s c h o o l c h i l d r e n d o n o t m o v e w h e r e s c h o o l s a r e —- s c h o o l s a r e c o n
s t r u c t e d w h e r e t h e c h i l d r e n a r e o r e x p e c t e d t o b e . N e a r l y ,
e v e r y s c h o o l d i s t r i c t a s l a r g e a s L i t t l e R o c k e m p l o y s e x p e r t s
w h o s t u d y t h e t r e n d s w h i c h i n d i c a t e w h e r e t h e p o p u l a t i o n w i l l
b e f i v e a n d e v e n t e n y e a r s f r o m t h e t i m e o f c o n s t r u c t i o n o f t h e
s c h o o l s . W h a t h a s h a p p e n e d i n L i t t l e R o c k i s n o d i f f e r e n t t h a n
t h a t w h i c h h a s h a p p e n e d i n t h e n o r t h e r n a n d o t h e r s e c t i o n s o f
t h i s c o u n t r y w h e r e t h e r e w a s n e v e r a n y d e j u r e s e g r e g a t i o n .
T h e g r o w t h o f t h e C i t y a n d t h e c o n s t r u c t i o n o f n e w h o m e s h a d
t o b e i n t h e w e s t a n d s o u t h w e s t e r l y p o r t i o n s o f t h e D i s t r i c t .
I f n e w s c h o o l s s h o u l d b e b u i l t w h e r e t h e p u p i l s a r e o r w i l l b e ,
t h e c o n s t r u c t i o n o f n e w s c h o o l s h a d t o b e i n t h e s a m e s e c t i o n s
o f t h e D i s t r i c t .
A s D r . D o d s o n s a i d , h e h a s n o t i c e d n o d i f f e r e n c e i n t h e
g r o w t h p a t t e r n s w h e r e s e g r e g a t i o n w a s d e j u r e o r t h o s e s e c t i o n s
o f t h e c o u n t r y w h e r e i t w a s d e f a c t o . I n a l l c o m p a r a b l e c i t i e s
t h e s a m e m o v e m e n t h a s o c c u r r e d — t h e w h i t e p e o p l e , p a r t i c u l a r l y
t h e o n e s w i t h h i g h e r i n c o m e s , h a v e m o v e d i n t o t h e s u b u r b s , m o s t
o f t h e N e g r o e s h a v e r e m a i n e d w h e r e t h e y w e r e o r h a v e m o v e d i n t o
t h e c e n t r a l p a r t o f t h e c i t y , i n m a n y c a s e s o c c u p y i n g t h e h o m e s
w h i c h t h e w h i t e s h a v e v a c a t e d .
We h a v e n o d o u b t t h a t t h e g r o w t h o f L i t t l e R o c k a n d i t s
S c h o o l D i s t r i c t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e s a m e w i t h o u t r e g a r d t o s o -
c a l l e d d e f a c t o o r d e j u r e s e g r e g a t i o n .
I f t h e c o n c e p t o f n e i g h b o r h o o d g e o g r a p h i c a l z o n i n g i s l e g a l ,
w e s e e n o r e a s o n w h y t h i s C o u r t s h o u l d a t t e m p t t o s u p e r v i s e t h e
28-
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Memorandum Opinion
c o n s t r u c t i o n o f n e w s c h o o l s o r t h e a l t e r a t i o n o r a d d i t i o n t o
o l d e r s c h o o l s , b e c a u s e t h e p o p u l a t i o n d e m a n d s w i l l i n e x o r a b l y
d i c t a t e t h e l o c a t i o n a n d c o n s t r u c t i o n o f s c h o o l s . O f c o u r s e ,
i f t h e B o a r d d e v i a t e d f r o m t h i s p o l i c y i n s u c h a w a y a s t o i m
p e d e d e s e g r e g a t i o n , a p p l i c a t i o n f o r r e l i e f c o u l d a l w a y s b e
m a d e t o t h i s C o u r t .
A T T O R N E Y S ' F E E S .
T h e C o u r t r e a l i z e s t h a t t h e C o u r t o f A p p e a l s h a s s u g g e s t e d
t h a t t h e D i s t r i c t C o u r t s a s s e s s s u b s t a n t i a l a t t o r n e y s ' f e e s i n
f a v o r o f p l a i n t i f f s i n c a s e s o f t h i s t y p e w h e r e s u c h f e e s a r e
w a r r a n t e d b y t h e c i r c u m s t a n c e s .
I n t h e i r b r i e f t h e p l a i n t i f f s h a v e l i s t e d a g r e a t m a n y
h o u r s s a i d t o h a v e b e e n d e v o t e d t o p r e p a r a t i o n f o r t r i a l ,
a l t h o u g h t h e r e i s n o b r e a k d o w n a m o n g t h e d i f f e r e n t p h a s e s o f t h e
c a s e .
A f t e r t h e E i g h t h C i r c u i t ' s d e c i s i o n i n C l a r k i n D e c e m b e r
1966 t h e B o a r d i m m e d i a t e l y c o m p l i e d w i t h i t s d i r e c t i v e a s t o
n o t i c e t o t h e p u p i l s u n d e r t h e f r e e d o m o f c h o i c e p l a n . P l a i n
t i f f s ‘ c o u n s e l s o s t i p u l a t e d d u r i n g t h i s h e a r i n g . O f c o u r s e ,
t h e r a t e o f p r o g r e s s o f d e s e g r e g a t i o n o f f a c u l t y a n d s t a f f m a y
b e a m a t t e r o f o p i n i o n , a l t h o u g h c o n s i d e r a b l e p r o g r e s s w a s m a d e .
A s o f M a y 27, 1968, t h e d a t e o f t h e t h r e e S u p r e m e C o u r t c a s e s ,
t h e L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l B o a r d w a s o p e r a t i n g a f r e e d o m o f c h o i c e
s y s t e m w h i c h h a d b e e n d e c l a r e d l e g a l h y t h e E i g h t h C i r c u i t .
T h e p e t i t i o n f o r f u r t h e r r e l i e f o f p l a i n t i f f s f o r m i n g t h e b a s i s
o f t h i s p h a s e o f t h e l i t i g a t i o n w a s f i l e d J u n e 25, 1968, l e s s
t h a n o n e m o n t h a f t e r t h e d a t e o f t h e o p i n i o n s o f t h e S u p r e m e
C o u r t i n t h e t h r e e c a s e s . I f a r e a s o n a b l e a l l o w a n c e i s m a d e
f o r r e c e i v i n g c o p i e s o f t h o s e S u p r e m e C o u r t o p i n i o n s , s t u d y o f
-29-
920
Memorandum Opinion
t h e m b y c o u n s e l , a n d c o u n s e l ' s c o n f e r r i n g w i t h t h e S c h o o l B o a r d ,
i t s e e m s i m p r a c t i c a l , i f n o t a l m o s t i m p o s s i b l e , f o r t h e B o a r d
t o h a v e m a d e a r e v i s i o n i n i t s d e s e g r e g a t i o n p o l i c i e s b y t h e
t i m e t h a t p l a i n t i f f s 1 p e t i t i o n w a s f i l e d o n J u n e 2 5 .
I t i s t r u e t h a t t h e r e s p o n s e f i l e d b y t h e B o a r d c o n t a i n e d
n o a f f i r m a t i v e s t a t e m e n t s e x c e p t a n a f f i r m a t i o n o f g o o d f a i t h
a n d t h e f a c t t h a t a c o m m i t t e e h a d b e e n a p p o i n t e d t o r e a p p r a i s e
t h e B o a r d ' s p o l i c i e s , b u t s u c h c o m m i t t e e h a d n o t c o m p l e t e d i t s
w o r k . I t w a s i n r e s p o n s e t o t h a t a n s w e r t h a t t h e C o u r t w r o t e a
l e t t e r t o c o u n s e l s u g g e s t i n g t h e f i l i n g o f a g e o g r a p h i c z o n i n g
p l a n f o r t h e p u p i l s a n d a r e d i s t r i b u t i o n o f t h e f a c u l t y i n e a c h
s c h o o l i n a c c o r d a n c e a s n e a r a s p o s s i b l e w i t h t h e r a t i o o f t h e
r a c e s o f t h e p u p i l s i n t h e D i s t r i c t .
T h e B o a r d f i l e d a p l a n e m b o d y i n g t h e s u g g e s t i o n s m a d e i n
t h e C o u r t ‘ s l e t t e r . S i n c e t h a t t i m e t h i s l a w s u i t h a s l a r g e l y
c o n s i s t e d o f a v i g o r o u s a t t a c k b y t h e p l a i n t i f f s o n t h e n e i g h b o r
h o o d z o n i n g p l a n f i l e d b y t h e B o a r d , a n d t h e y h a v e i n s i s t e d t h a t
t h e B o a r d a d o p t e i t h e r t h e O r e g o n o r P a r s o n s P l a n , b o t h o f w h i c h
w o u l d r e q u i r e c o m p u l s o r y t r a n s p o r t a t i o n o f p u p i l s b y b u s . T h e
C o u r t h a s n o d o u b t t h a t n e a r l y a l l o f t h e h o u r s w h i c h p l a i n t i f f s
l i s t h a v e b e e n i n c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t h i s i s s u e w h i c h t h e C o u r t h a s
f o u n d a g a i n s t t h e p l a i n t i f f s .
T h e C o u r t r e a l i z e s , a s w a s s t a t e d i n C l a r k , t h a t t h e p a s t
h i s t o r y o f t h e B o a r d ( w h i c h , o f c o u r s e , i n c l u d e s m a n y m e m b e r s
w h o n o l o n g e r a r e s e r v i n g ) h a s b e e n o n e o f i n t r a n s i g e n c e — b u t
u n d e r t h e c i r c u m s t a n c e s h e r e , a n d c o n s i d e r i n g t h e o u t c o m e o f
t h i s c a s e , t h e C o u r t c a n n o t s a y t h a t s i n c e t h e C o u r t o f A p p e a l s
o p i n i o n i n 1 9 6 6 t h e B o a r d h a s e x h i b i t e d b a d f a i t h — a n d f o r t h a t
r e a s o n a t t o r n e y s ' f e e s a r e d e n i e d .
-30-
921
Memorandum Opinion
ADDENDUM.
T h e r e w a s a n o t h e r g r o u p o f s c h o o l s s u g g e s t e d f o r p a i r i n g
o r c o n s o l i d a t i o n i n t h e e a s t e r n p a r t o f t h e D i s t r i c t , k n o w n a s
t h e A l p h a C o m p l e x . T h e f a c t s i n t h e r e c o r d a s t o t h a t g r o u p o f
s c h o o l s a r e n o t s u f f i c i e n t f o r t h e C o u r t t o m a k e a f i n d i n g o r
i s s u e a d i r e c t i v e a s i t h a s d o n e i n t h e B e t a C o m p l e x .
T h e C o u r t i s a w a r e t h a t t h i s c a s e w i l l b e a p p e a l e d t o t h e
C o u r t o f A p p e a l s , i f n o t t o t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t . W e r e t h a t n o t
t r u e , t h e C o u r t w o u l d p r e s e n t l y o r d e r t h a t f u r t h e r i n f o r m a t i o n
b e f u r n i s h e d t h e C o u r t i n c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t h e A l p h a C o m p l e x , a n d ,
i f n e c e s s a r y , a h e a r i n g b e h e l d i n c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t h o s e
e l e m e n t a r y s c h o o l s . T h e C o u r t d o e s n o t b e l i e v e t h a t i t w o u l d
s e r v e a n y u s e f u l p u r p o s e t o d o - s o n o w — b u t u n l e s s a p p e l l a t e
c o u r t s d e c i d e o t h e r w i s e , t h e C o u r t w i l l , a s s o o n a s i t i s
f e a s i b l e , p u r s u e t h e p o s s i b i l i t y o f f u r t h e r i n t e g r a t i o n i n
t h a t a r e a .
J u r i s d i c t i o n o f t h i s c a u s e w i l l b e r e t a i n e d .
D a t e d : M a y 8 , 1 9 6 9 .
GORDON E . YOUNG
U n i t e d S t a t e s D i s t r i c t J u d g e
-31-
9 2 2
D EC R EE
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v , I I ® . M S ~ * 4 ~ € ~ 1 § 5
w i m m ® o p n w m < x or m
.u m m *sc* seaoos, s x r m x c r , «t * ! »
K U U 6 . T O W M S H B , « m i n o r , efc a l «
u m x sock OAsncn m o a n s
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D S F K W A X T 8
mismit-iimmsow
s *_ e r g . .i.
f u r r o a m f c t ® m a a s w ra s id w i* o p i n i o n e n t e r e d M a y 8 , 1 9 S 9 , i t l a
b y t h a C o u r t COR SX O K N R O . O K > S » m , I W M a n d m a m m t
1 . T h e d e f e n d a n t s 9 s t u d e n t a s s i g n m e n t p l a n b a s e d o n t h e
c o n e s r e f l e c t e d i n d e f e n d a n t s * E x h i b i t 2 2 i s a p p r o v e d w i t h t h e
f o l l o w i n g e x c e p t i o n * *
( a ) T h e d e f e n d a n t s a r e d i r e c t e d t o r e d r a w t h e s o u t h e a s t
r o n e b o u n d a r y o f H a l l H i g h S c h o o l a© a * t o p l a c e n o t l e s s t h a n
8 0 H e g r o h i g h s c h o o l s t u d e n t s w i t h i n t h a t s o n * .
f b ) T h e s o - c a l l e d " S e t ® C o m p l e x " a a d e s c r i b e d i n t h e
C o u r t ' s o p i n i o n s h a l l b e i m p l e m e n t e d b y t h e H o a r d f o r t h e s c h o o l
t e r ® b e g i n n i n g i n S e p t e m b e r 1 9 7 0 .
( c ) D e f e n d a n t s a r e d i r e c t e d t o p r o v i d e a n o p p o r t u n i t y
f o r a n y s t u d e n t , w h i t e o r B e g r o , t o t r a n s f e r f r e e s a s c h o o l
w h e r e h i e r a c e i s i n t h e m a j o r i t y t o a s c h o o l w h e r e h i * r a c e i s
i n t h e m i n o r i t y w h e r e s p a c e i s a v a i l a b l e . A d e q u a t e n o t i c e o f
s u c h o p p o r t u n i t y t o t r a n s f e r s h a l l b e g i v e n t o t h e s t u d e n t # b y
t h e d e f e n d a n t s .
2 . T h e s p e c i a l j s r e v i s l o n * m e n t i o n e d i n t h e o p i n i o n r e l a t i n g
t o c h i l d r e n o f t e a c h e r s , a n d s t u d e n t s p r e s e n t l y i n t h e 8 t h ,
O' >$23
D e c r e e
l O f c l i , a n d 1 1 t h g r a d e * a r e a p p r i s e d ,.
3 . D e f e n d a n t s ' pirns f e a r f a c u l t y d e s e g r e g a t i o n l *
a p p r o v e d .
4 . P l a i n t i f f s * a p p l i c a t i o n f a r a l l o w a n c e o f a t t o r n e y * '
f e e s i s d e n i e d .
5 . H o t l a t a r t h a n 1 0 d a y * 'mS&xm t h e a t t h e
s c h o o l t a n a i n « e p t e m b e r 1 9 7 0 t h e d e f e n d a n t * s h a l l f i l e •
r e p o r t w i t h t h e C o u r t s t o i d i s h a l l c o n t a i n I n f o r m a t i o n ms t o
t h e p r o g r e s s o f f a m i t y d e s e g r e g a t i o n t h e i m p l e m e a t a t i e *
o f t h e - B e t a C o m p l e x . "
6 . i f i t t i i r n a m n n e c e a s a r y f o r d e f e n d a n t * t © a d j u s t a n y
o f t h e a m ® b o u n d a r i e s t o b e t t e r d i s t r i b u t e t h e s t u d e n t s a m o n g
t h e s c h o o l * p r i o r t ® S e p t e m b e r 1 9 7 0 , t h e y w i l l p r o m p t l y f i l e
a n d « « m o n c o u n s e l f a r p l a i n t i f f s a d # * e r i p t i « * o f a l l s n o b
c t a s g t s , t o g e t h e r w i t h r e a s o n s t h e y w a r e d e e m e d s s e o e e a a r y .
7 . t h a C o a r t r e t a i n s j u r i s d i c t i o n o f t h a c a u a e f o r a l l
a p p r o p r i a t e p u r p o s e s .
S a t e d • H a y 1 4 , 1 9 4 9 .
/ S / GORDON K. YOUNG
U n i t e d S t a t e s D i s t r i c t J u d g e
-2-
924
NOTICE OF APPEAL
I N THE U N IT E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T COURT
FO R THE E A ST E R N D I S T R I C T OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN D I V I S I O N
D ELO R ES C L A R K , E T A L . P L A I N T I F F S
V . N O . L R 6 4 C - 1 5 5
THE BOARD OF E D U C A T IO N OF THE
L I T T L E ROCK SCHOOL D I S T R I C T , ET A L . DEFENDANTS
N O T IC E OF A P P E A L
P L E A S E TAKE N O T IC E THAT p l a i n t i f f s h e r e b y a p p e a l t o
t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s C o u r t o f A p p e a l s f o r t h e E i g h t h C i r c u i t f r o m
t h e O r d e r a n d J u d g m e n t e n t e r e d b y t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s D i s t r i c t
C o u r t f o r t h e E a s t e r n D i s t r i c t o f A r k a n s a s o n M ay 8 , 1 9 6 9 ,
t h e H o n o r a b l e G o r d o n E . Y o u n g , J u d g e .
WALKER, ROTENBERRY & KAPLAN
1 8 2 0 W e s t 1 3 t h S t r e e t
L i t t l e R o c k , A r k a n s a s
B y ______ __
O n e o f A t t o r n e y s F o r P l a i n t l f'f s
CE R T I F I C A T E OF S E R V IC E
I h a v e t h i s 8 t h d a y o f M a y , 1 9 6 9 , s e r v e d a c o p y o f t h e
a b o v e a n d f o r e g o i n g u p o n t h e a t t o r n e y f o r d e f e n d a n t s , M r . R o b e r t
V . L i g h t , b y U . S . M a i l .
925
NOTICE OP APPEAL F I L E D
I N THE U N IT E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T COUR® h .
F O R THE E A ST E R N D I S T R I C T OF ARKANSAS
WESTERN D I V I S I O N
D ELO R ES C L A R K , E T A L . P L A I N T I F F S
V . H o . L R - 6 4 - C - 1 5 5
THE BOARD OF ED U C A T IO N OF THE
L I T T L E ROCK SCHOOL D I S T R I C T , E T A L . DEFENDANTS
YOLANDA G. TOWNSEND, A M IN O R , ET A L . P L A I N T I F F - I N T E R V E N O R L
L I T T L E ROCK CLASSROOM TEA C H ER S
A S S O C I A T IO N IN T E R V E N O R S
N O T IC E OF A PPEA L
P L E A S E TAKE N O T IC E t h a t p l a i n t i f f s a n d p l a i n t i f f - i n t e r v e n o r s
h e r e b y a p p e a l t o t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s C o u r t o f A p p e a l s f o r t h e
E i g h t h C i r c u i t f r o m t h e D e c r e e e n t e r e d h e r e i n o n M a y 1 6 , 1 9 6 9 b y
t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s D i s t r i c t C o u r t f o r t h e E a s t e r n D i s t r i c t o f
A r k a n s a s , W e s t e r n D i v i s i o n , t h e H o n o r a b l e G o r d o n r . Y o u n g ,
D i s t r i c t J u d g e .
R e s p e c t f u l l y s u b m i t t e d ,
D A T ED : , 1 9 6 9 . WALKER, ROTENBERPY & KAPLAN
1 8 2 0 W e s t 1 3 t h S t r e e t
L i t t l e R o c k , A r k a n s a s 7 2 2 0 2
JA C K GREENBERG
M ICH A EL MELTSNER
NORMAN J . CHACHKIN
S u i t ® 2 0 3 0 - 1 0 C o l u m b u s C i r c l e
Mew Y o r k , N ew Y o r k 1 0 0 1 9
A t t o r n e y s f o r P l a i n t i f f s
BY
C E R T I F I C A T E OF S E R V IC E
I h e r e b y c e r t i f y t h a t X h a v e m a i l e d a c o p y o f t h e a b o v e
N o t i c e o f A p p e a l t o t h e a t t o r n e y f o r d e f e n d a n t s a n d d e f e n d a n t -
i n t e r v e n o r s , S m i t h , W i l l i a m s , F r i d a y 6 B o w e n , 1 1 0 0 B o y l e B u i l d i n g
L i t t l e R o c k , A r k a n s a s ; E u o e n s R . W a r r e n , E s q . , T o w e r B u i l d i n g ,
L i t t l e R o c k , A r k a n s a s 7 2 2 0 1 ; A l l a n U . D i s h o n a h , E s q . , N a t i o n a l
i n v e s t o r s B l d g . , L i t t l e R o c k , A r k a n s a s 7 2 2 0 1 ; a n d u p o n t h e a t t o r n e l y
f o r p l a i n t i f f - i n t e r v e n o r s , J o h n P . S i z e m o r e , E s q . , 7 1 1 W e s t T h i r d
S t r e e t , L i t t l e R o c k , A r k a n s a s 7 2 2 0 1 , t h i s d a y o f J u n e , 1 9 6 9 .
926
NOTI C E OP C R O S S - A P P E A L
I N T H ” U N IT E D S T A T E S D I S T R I C T COURT
FOK T H E E A S T O N D I S T R I C T OF ARKANSAS
W E S T '’i d D I V I S I O N
D E L O R E S C L A R K , ET A L
v s . M o . L U - 6 A - G - 1 5 5
T H E BOARD OF E D U C A TIO N OF T H E
L I T T L E ROCK SCHOO L D I S T R I C T , ET A L
YOLANDA G . TOW NSEND, A M I N O R , E T A L
L I T T L E ROCK CLASSROOM T EA C H ER S
A S S O C I A T I O N
P L A I N T I F F S
D E FEN D A N TS
P L A I N T I F F - I N T E R V K N O R S
XNTERVENORS
W O H £ E O f , C R O S S A P P E A L
P L F A S E TAKE N O T IC E t h a t d e f e n d a n t s , t h e B o a r d o f E d u c a t i o n
o f t h e L i t t l e R o c k S c h o o l D i s t r i c t , W i l l i a m R . M e e k s , J r . , J i m L .
J e n k i n s , D a n i e l H . W o o d s , W i n s l o w D r u m m o n d , T . F . P a t t e r s o n , E d w i n
N . B a r r o n , J r . , a n d C h a r l e s A . B r o w n , D i r e c t o r s o f t h e L i t t l e R o c k
S c h o o l D i s t r i c t , h e r e b y a p p e a l t o t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s C o u r t o f A p p e a l *
t o r t h e :" i _ g h t h C i r c u i t f r o m t h o s e p o r t i o n s o f t h e D e c r e e e n t e r e d
h e r e i n on M a y L 6 , 1 9 6 9 l i s t e d b e l o w :
" ( a ) T h e d e f e n d a n t s a r e d i r e c t e d t o r e d r a w t h e s o u t h e a s t
z o n e b o u n d a r y of H a l l H i g h S c h o o l s o a s t o p l a c e n o t l e s s t h a n
SO N e g r o h i g h s c h o o l s t u d e n t s w i t h i n t h a t z o n e ,
( a ) T h e s o - c a l l e d " B e t ® C o m p l e x " a s d e s c r i b e d i n t h e
C o u r t ' s o p i n i o n s h a l l b e i m p l e m e n t e d b y t h e B o a r d f o r t h e s c h o o l
t e r m b e g i n n i n g i n S e p t e m b e r 1 9 7 0 .
( c ) D e f e n d a n t s a r e d i r e c t e d t o p r o v i d e a n o p p o r t u n i t y
f o r a n y s t u d e n t , w h i t e o r N e g r o , t o t r a n s f e r f r o m a s c h o o l
w h e r e h i s r a c e i a i n t h a m a j o r i t y t o a s c h o o l w h e r e h i s r a c e i s
i n t h e m i n o r i t y w h e r e s p a c e i s a v a i l a b l e . A d e q u a t e n o t i c e o f
927 n
M o t i c e o f C r o s s - A p p e a l
such o pportunity to transfer shall be given to the student# by
the d e f endants."
D A T E D : J u n e 23, 19C9
S M I T H , W I L L I A M S , F R ID A Y « BOWEN
«y„_______ ___________— — —
h e r s c h e l H . F r i d a y
ORIGINAL SIGNED BY
ROBERT V. LIGHT
R o b e r t V . L i g h t
L I 0 0 B o y L e B u i l d i n g
L i t t l e R o c k , A r k a n s a s 7 2 2 0 1
A t t o r n e y s f o r D e f e n d a n t s
C E R T I F I C A T E OF S E R V IC E
I c e r t i f y t h a t a c o p y o f t h e f o r e g o i n g N o t i c e o f C r o s s
A p p e a l w a y r a i l e d o n J u n e 2 3 , l b t 9 t o t h e f o l l o w i n g :
J o h n U. w a l k e r , 1 L 2 0 W e s t 1 3 t h S t r e e t , L i t t l e R o c k , A r k a n s a s
7 2 2 0 2 ; E u g e n e K . W a r r e n , T o w e r B u i l d i n g , L i t t l e R o c k , A r k a n s a s 7 2 2 0 1 ;
A l l a n H . D l s h o n g h , N a t i o n a l I n v e s t o r s L i f e B u i L d l n g , L i t t l e R o c k ,
A r k a n s a s 7 2 2 0 1 ; a n d J o h n P . S i z e m o r e , 7 1 1 W e s t 3 r d S t r e e t , L i t t l e H o c k ,
A r k a n s a s 7 2 2 0 1 .
ORIGINAL SIGNED BY
ROBERT V. LIGHT
R o b e r t V . L i g h t
- 2 -
V - ••