Lankford v. Schmidt Transcript of Proceedings Vol. 6

Public Court Documents
January 26, 1965

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  • Brief Collection, LDF Court Filings. Lankford v. Schmidt Transcript of Proceedings Vol. 6, 1965. f1a29a5a-ba9a-ee11-be36-6045bdeb8873. LDF Archives, Thurgood Marshall Institute. https://ldfrecollection.org/archives/archives-search/archives-item/e85b6f8c-8a83-4d34-ad79-da322d215d17/lankford-v-schmidt-transcript-of-proceedings-vol-6. Accessed April 27, 2025.

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    IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE DISTRICT OF MARYLAND 

SAMUEL JAMES LANKFORD, et al. :

vs. : Civil No. 16080

BERNARD J , SCHMIDT , ^ C o m m is s io n e r
of Police of Baltimore City. :

January 26, 1965

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 

Volume 6

(Page 582 to page 742 )

Francis T. Owens 
Official Reporter 
514 Post Office Bldg. 
Baltimore 2, Maryland



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I N D E X

Witness

George D, Shriner 

William Co Hughes 

Lyman Wm. Gonce 

George Cs Schnabel 

Robert De Paula 

Richard L. Connolly 

Robert J, Hewes 

Clarence Roy 

Albert Gooddale 

James J, Cadden

Direct Cross

564 591

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665 674

684 688

695 703

719

E X H I B I T S

Redirect Recross

7X6 717

Defendant's No. Page

No. 3 716



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IS THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 
FOR THE DISTRICT OF MARYLAND

SAMUEL JAMES LANKFORD, et al.

vs.

BERNARD J. SCHMIDT, as COt-MISS IONER 
of POLICE of BALTIMORE CITY

Civil No. 16080

Baltimore, Maryland 
Tuesday, January 26, 1965

The above-entitled matter was resumed for 

hearing before His Honor, Roszel C. Thomsen, Chief Judge.

A P P E A R A N C E S  

(As heretofore noted.)



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;0URTj Would you all come up to the bench for 

a minute to clear up a couple things?

(A discussion was had at the bench.)

THE COURTi I think we ought to put on the record 

that the Master's Report has been filed this Thursday, January 

218t, and may be considered a part of this plaintiff's case. 

Thereupon,

GEORGE D, SHRINER, was called to the stand and 

sworn as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, was 

examined and testified as follows:

THE CLERK: State your name for the record?

THE WITNESS: George D. Shrlner, Detective, Balti­

more City Police Department.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. SAUSE:

Q Sergeant, how long have you been on the police

force?

A Fourteen years, sir,

Q Now, during the early part of this month or the

latter part of 1984 did you participate in an investigation

connected with the homicide of Sergeant Cooper?

A I did, sir.

Q And during the course of that investigation did 

you have occasion to go to 24lo Eutaw Place?

A I did, sir.
3 7 8



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Q Now, in what capacity ala you go to Eutaw Place, 

what was your jot? at that time, your position?

A As a procedure is set up prior to each investiga­

tion I was one or the men selectee who would wear bouy armor, 

to carry a heavy v,’capon and would enter first in company with 

other officers of the group.

Q by bony armor you mean bullet proof vest?

A That is correct, sir.

Q V.'ould you tell honor very briefly without men­

tioning names why you felt it was necessary to wear bullet 

proof vest and bouy armor?

A Prior investigation dlsclosea the subjects wanted 

in this offense were aeemeu to be considered armed and extreme 

ly dangerous due to acts committed prior to this and due to 

acts in leaning to the homicide of Sergeant Jack Cooper.

Tub COURT: bet me sue if we can save time.

is there any dispute about the last statement as a 

fact without any question of its legal effect, is there any 

dispute of this fact?

i4R. NAURU1: About the ...

Tub COURT: That tney were reasonably believed to

be dangerous.

MR. NAbRIT: No,

THE COURT: So that that need not be proved any
further.

V79



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HR. NABEIT: All right.

BY MRo SAUSE:

Q how, Sergeant, woulc you tell His Honor, starting 

from tiie time shav you arrived at hutaw Place until you left, 

what took place to the best of your recollection?

A Yes, sir.

first of ail, wnat time was it that you arrived

there?

A Uur time of arrival was approximately in the 

neighborhood oi 1:10 A.Pi. the morning of December 2/th In com­

pany with the lieutenant anu tne other officers or the advance 

group, the utuocfcive cruiser, we maue an observation of the 

dwelling known as autaw Place, from our advantage point

in the neighborhood axiu in the same block we observed the awcl 

ing. V»e observed at that time tnere was lights on on the lowej? 

level.

From tnio point we retornou a couple, several bloc < 

away where the remainder of the rest of the investigating group 

was standing by. m e  lieutenant auviseu tne certain groups 

that would go to the rear, our group proceeded to the front of 

the dwelling at 2416 Hutaw Place arriving at thi3 time at
380

approximately 1:30 A.Pi.

>.t this point in company with Detective De Paula, 

Detective Ollvcj. Welker. Oergeant Richard connolly, Hortncasten 

District, we went to the front of the dwelling at 24lo Autaw



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Place.

The outer or vestibule doors, double-swinging door 

that opened Inward, were opened, one side. I approached the d 

opened the uoor, the second swinging uoor was open inward.

At this point 1 knocked on the door and I also 

rang the bell. Approximately one, two minutes later a small, 

slight built colored subject answered the door clad only in 

pajama bottoms. We had our shields affixed on the front of 

our body and we auvised that we were police officers acting 

on information, we were looking fox- two wanted subjects and 

we had information that one of the subjects had resided there 

and may be there at thlB time.

With that he advised us that we could enter the 

house and look anywhere we wanted. I entered the house and at 

this time Lieutenant i-lanuel had entered behind the other two 

>fficers.

We began our search and at this time the Leiutenan 

stood there talking to this subject. Detective Walker went 

through and was talking to some lady In the rear of the dwell­

ing, first floor level.

After he left the door was open, the lady was ther 

to the best of my recollection she was clad in night garments.

A light was shown in a room, we looked around, there was 

several beds there, there was figures in the beds and to the 

best of ray knowledge I would say that they were^pung people



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and did not answer any descriptions that we wanted.

At this point wo went to the second level of the 

dwelling where other officers were, I went down the hall, 

there was In the middle of the second level of the dwelling, 

there was a bath facility, I looked in there, I went to the 

rear and there was a locked aour. We requested, who had keys 

to open this aoor. With this a female subject came down the 

hall, handed tne keys to me, 1 opened the door, we shown a 

light and this room was empty. We closed the door, I returned 

the keys, the keys were left there.

We went back down the hall, down to the first floo 

level. By this time there were other officers who I do not 

Know were on the third level, V/e went down, I observed 

Lieutenant Manuel still holding conversation with the subject 

who had answered the door.

We proceeded to leave the building after the all- 

clear. The other officers were on the first level and on the 

way out somebody said. Happy New Yeas spontaneously. The 

officer with me, standing by my side, to the best of my know­

ledge he was cither by my aide or to the rear of mo, wo said 

Happy New Year.

--------- ! We left the premises known 83 2416 Kutaw, returned

to our vehicles and at once returned to the Northeast District 

awaiting further assignment.

Q Now, Sergeant, approximately what time was it that



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you left the dwelling?

A To the best of my knowledge I placed the time at 

approximately in the neighborhood of 1:45-1:48, no more than 

fifteen to eighteen minutes from the time of entraoe to the 

time of departure.

Q how, this person who openeu the door, the slightly 

built subject, aid you explain to him the reason for your 

being there?

A When this subject answered the door I told him at 

this time that we were police officers, we were hunting for 

a fugitive subject wanteu by our department and he said you 

are welcome to come in and look around,

Q bid you tell him the name of the person for whom 

you were looking?

A To the best of my knowledge I»d say, yes, sir, we

did.

Q in addition to protective body armor did you have 

any other protection?

A Yes, sir. I was carrying a .45 caliber sub-machins
gun.

Q And this was visible to anyone in the house, this 

man who opened the door?

A Yes, sir. ThiB weapon was at the ready and on 3afu

Q And have you received special training with the

handling of that weapon?



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A I have been a member of the department riot squad 

for thirteen years, sir.

Q And as a member of the riot squad you do receive 

training on the handling of the sub-machinegun?

A Yes, sir. All heavy weapons of the department, 

we are trained over a period of years on numerous occasions 

to frequent us with the weapons or any new weapons that are 

received.

Q Now, other than service revolvers did anyone have 

any heavy equipment •..

A Yesi sir.

Q ... specially trained personnel?

A Yes, sir.

Q Specially trained in the use of the weapon they 

handled?

A YeB, sir. Every man that entered first was trainei

personnel in the use of the weapon that they handled,

Q Now, when you went in the house did you touch the 

person who opened the door?

A I at no time and no one in ray presence did I obser1 

anyone touch this subject at any time, Bir.

Q Did you have him put his hands up against the wall 

and pat him down? v84

No, sir. From my first visual observation of the

subject with pajama pants on, if he had a weapon it would have



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been very easily seen through this garment.

Q So there wasn't any need?

A No, sir, no need whatsoever to touch the subject 

or pat him down.

MR. SAUSii: Your witness.

CROSS iiXAMINATION

BY MR. NABRIT:

Q Detective Shrlner, you observed lights on the 

first floor from your observation, were those Christmas lights

A from our advantage point in observing this dwell­

ing, I wouldn't say definitely they were, I wouldn't say they 

weren't, sir.

Q Diu I understand you correctly to say that you 

turned your flashlite, or a light like that, into the first 

floor bedroom ana observea some young people in bed?

A You heard me incorrectly, sir, I diu not say that. 

X said a light was shown into that room.

Q A light carried by an officer?

A That is correct, sir. i had a weapon which was at

the ready ana on safe. I couldn't handle a flashlite and a 

weapon, too, sir.

Q Well, this was someone accompanying you?

A Yes, sir. There was an officer behind me, Sergeani 

Richard Connolly.
38 r-Q And he had what kind of light?



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A He had a hand torch, as we refer to them. It is a 

high-powered, twelve volt light.

Q Did the two of your look into this room, the first 

floor bedroom?
A I would hardly say that he could look through me, 

sir. He had the light at a point where if anyone was there, 

the light —  the first instinct, if anybody can see a light 

they are going to go for the light. The light would be off 

from my body so if anything was coining ray way I wouldn't get it.

Q Did you look into the room?

A I did, sir.

Q Did you have any conversation with the lady ...

A I had no conversation with no one except the persoi 

that I talked to when I entered the building,

Q How, this first floor bedroom, would you describe 

the rooms —  how many rooms did you go through to get to that 

first floor bedroom?

A Upon entering the dwelling at 2^16 Eutaw there is 

a long hallj right as you enter the front door to the left 

going in there is the old time Bliding doors, you proceed down 

the hall, from there there is an opening to a dining room, thei 

further back would be a more or less kitchen affair and beyond 

it was the room that we looked into the —  it was quite a 

congested area, I'd say, from quick observation, with beds 

around and several subjects in them and this female Negro sub-

*88



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Ject standing outside of the door who had had conversation 

with Detective Walker.

Q And there Is a little area-way, like a small hall 

between the Kitchen and tne rear room?

A To cne best of ray recollection I think there was,

sir.

Q oo that to get to the door of that rear room you 

went down the hallway, through a olnlng room, through tne 

kitchen, through this little hallway behind the kitchen?

A There was a hall from the entrance foyer to the

dining room area, then the kitchen, then there may have been

a small passageway or hallway, as you refer to it, to that 

back room, yes, to the best of my knowledge.

Q Referring to the second floor locked room which 

you mentioned, did X understand you correctly to say that 

someone gave you a key and that you personally opened the door 

with a key?

A That is correct. When we found the door was locke 

we requested that the key or someone to open the door and the 

next thing I know I was being handed a set of keys on a ring -

there was several other keys on the ring —  and I tried one or

two, the second or maybe the third key opened the door.

Q Did you inquire before that who that room belonged

to?

A I did not. To the best of my knowledge I did not,

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Q When you first entered the dwelling did you or 

anyone with you tell the person who answered the door to curn 

on the lights in the corridor?

A Wncn we first entered the dwelling to the beat of 

my knowledge we asked that lights be put on. In fact, once 

again, I will say, to the best of my knowledge when the subjec 

answered the door X think a light was lit in the hallway when 

he answered tho door.

Q But to the best of your knowledge you recall askin 

him to turn some more lights on as you went back?

A As we went through, yes, sir, because we were not 

familiar with the lighting system or where the lights switches 

were.

Q Detective Shrlner, when the door was opened did yo 

enter and then begin this conversation you described with the 

man who opened the door?

A I old not enter the premises until I advised the 

person who answered the door what purpose we were there for an: 

after ...

Q Where were you standing when you said this?

A From the top contact of the steps to the first

passing door that leads to the vestibule there is another largi

single door, when this subject answered the door we advised hin

we were police officers, we advised him of our purpose and onl;; 
when

at this point/he said you are welcome to come in and look arouf;



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did we enter the dwelling.

Q Now, you said you advised him of your purpose, do 

you recall his words?

A At this time, to the best of my knowledge, I would 

say that when tne subject answered the door I said, we are 

police officers, we are acting —  have information that a want 

subject wanted in a homicide of a police officer was at this 

address and with this his response was, you are welcome to com 

in and look around.

Q bergeant, am 1 wrong in thinking that the operatin 

procedure was tnat when, in these series of investigations, 

that wnen a person opens a door responding to your knocking, 

the procedure was for one person to enter and then for the 

lieutenant or person in cnarge to come up and ask and explain 

what was going on?

A You are wrong, sir.

THE COURT: It was my understanding that it was

the testimony —  it is my recollection that was Lieutenant 

Glover who testified, was it, this entry was by another lieutejfi 

ant other than tne one who was in charge —  one of the three

in charge of tne Northeastern section.

MR. NABRZT: Lieutenant Manuel testified on it

last Wednesday, testified about this.

THE COURT: That is right. Now you speak of a

policy, I think policy was stated by Lieutenant Glover as beii
o o r



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the established policy of the group which he was one of the 

three top men operating out of Northeastern. Lieutenant Manuel 

wasn't one of tne top men. fou asked tills man very properly

I whether this was the —  what you nave Just said is what I 

understood Lieutenant Glover said was policy.

This witness has sale you are wrong about the 

policy. Are you familiar with the general policy or are you 

talking about the policy of raids that you participated In or 

are you talking about what was none in the raids of some of 

tne others?

THL Wx'lkooh: To clarify that. Your Honor, his

statement was —  his question was, as soon as I entered would 

the lieutenant come in. The policy was the first three or 

four men witn tne bouy armor would enter to make sure that no­

body was laying anu waiting in tne nail or any room that we 

entered, then tne superior officer was directly behind these 

four men. Ills question was, aid the lieutenant come directly 

behind me anc 1 answered no.

TiiL COURT: Well, I  think the question —  there. w$s

a misundersterming —  ao you know what the policy was with re­

spect to who should tell the person who opened the door tne 

purpose of the visit. Was tnere a policy that you knew about 

or was it Just a custom in the raids that you participated in, 

or the* searcha you participated in?

THE WITNESSi Yes, Your Honor. I can answer the



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question this way. The policy was that after we knocked on 

the dwelling or any place that we entered, as soon as we had a 

response we would uuvj.se uiun of our purpose there, we were 

police officers anu once wo entered then tne lieutenant In 

c ilarge would bt directly behind the first three or four men 

who were wearxng the body armor, then he would further auvlse 

them in detail,

THE oGURT: bo it lb your- understanding of the

policy that sue initial announcement that they were policemen 

and they were making some sort of a search, was by the people 

who entered iir*t with the bouy armor and the weapons?

THE Viilh^hO: Yes, sir. Then the superior oil leer

would be directly behind these people,

BY MR. NAURU:

4 Well, Detective Lhrinor, die Lieutenant Manuel 

come in after you or did he come in after Walker, De Paula and 

u^nnolly?

A To the best of my recollection, sir, I was the 

first to enter in the dwelling ana due to the seriousness of 

the situation I didn’t Iook over my shoulder to see who was 

directly —  1 knew who would be behind me, the other three men 

of the group tnat would enter first. But now as far as Lieute^ 

ant Manuel, l know that he had to be very close behind which
391was the normal procedure,

Q £>id~you go on any raids with Lieutenant Glover?



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A I have been on quite a few of the raids, sira 

Q Did you go on any others where you were the first 

perad i in?

iVii-vj.cali.y the majority of ail trie raids chat X 

via a on x ^ntcreu i Arc t <uu ng wiui Defective De Paula and 

Detective Mailer.

. ere any of these ruias where Lieutenant Cadden was

xn charge?

'x'herfc were a number or raias enat Lieutenant Cadde

598

A

was> in charge or, yea, air.
\were thbre a number of raids like this where 

Glover
Lieutenant/ aqb x i . eaarge?

A That is correct, sir. Lieutenant Glover was in

charge. \

Q tan you recall how many officers entered the house 

on Kutaw Place that nignt? \

A To the best of my knowledge the exact number I 

could not recall. 1 am only familiar with the officers that w4 

worked together with under the procedure

Q Do you know that there were others other than thos^ 

you named? \

A I observed one or two, at the most, other officers 

that I do not recall their names. \

THE COURTi lie testified there were officers he

didn’t know who searched the third floor



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BY NR. NABRITi

Officer, did you participate in a search at 2303 

Allendale Drive on or about December 30th?

MR, BA USB» If Your Honor please, I would like to 

indicate herd that I don’t object when counsel deliberately 

goes outside oiS direct and to show further that we want to get 

to the truth we Will waive that objection but It Is clearly 

improper cross examination.

THK COUjdh Were you going to put him back on?

Were you planning to take the various different entries in ord< 

and were you planning to put him back on?

MR. BAUSB: No, sir, we were going to try to avoid

that to conserve the court13 time.

THK COURT: Well, if you were not going to recall

him, go ahead.

THK WITNKSS: To the best of ray knowledge I would

have to refer to the records, I was on a number of rald3 . At 

this time I don't recall if I was or wasn't. I was on a great 

number of searches. I would have to refresh my memory through 

the records. \

BY MR. NABRIT:

Q This one was on December 26th, four to four thirty 

in the afternoon, a three-story frame house?

A I would still have to refer to the records, sir, 

because we had been going quite a few hours and we hft a numbed



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of places,

\  Q What records would you refer to to refresh your 

recollection about x.utaw Place, if any?

A kc nave the emergency service vehicle records and 

reports that we raake out.

You jaade out a report on oucaw Place?

A lucre's records that we maae out, yes, sir.

<* You personally?

a 1 made a report relative to the raid on liutaw Plao£ 

yes, sir.

k And did you alscuaa that raid on tfutaw Place with 

anyone since then?

A 1 nave uxseussed it with ray superior officers, that 

is correct, sir,

i* when was the most recent discussion you had?

A dir.

<« When was the most recent discussion?

A To the best of my knowledge X would say sometime 

in the early part or January, sir.

Q You haven't discussed it since last Wednesday?

A No, sir. I have either been on night work or I 

have been off, sir, painting the house.

Q Do you know wnethor any officers climbed a fire 

escape in that house on JSutaw Place?

A From the front of the house I did not observe the



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fire escape and I cannot answer If the fire escape was climbed 

by anyone. I did not climb it.

Q How about the roof?

A No, sir.

Q You didn't observe it, you don't know?

A X do not know, sir.

Q Did you go on a raid at 917 North Chapel, December

3 1 about miu-oay?

A No, sir.

Q 2003 North Monroe, January 6th, also about mid-day

A 1 did not participate in that raid, sir.

Q 1140 Hnields Place, New Year's Hve, December 31st,

again arouna twelve ana one in the afternoon?

A I was working the night unit at that time, sir.

I did not come to duty until three P.M.

Q 2204 North Rosedale, about January 4th, empty hous 

with a dog inside?

A I can answer no to that one if there was a dog 

there, sir.

Q The uog was in the basement, you don't recall that

A I don’t care if the dog was in the basement or on

the roof, I vould have Known, sir.

Q Wallace home on 240b Huron, December 30th?

A Negative to that, sir. \



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Q The* Lankford home, 270T Parkwooa on February 2, 

after midnight?

A Negative to that, air.
Xbut you areNjjot Bure about Allenuule?

A As X anawereu before, Bir, i would have to look at

the recoras to refresh my memory, sir.

Q Wnetnei* or not you were there or as to what happened?

A If X was there, to wnafc happened. To the beet of

my recollection, as I stateo previously, I don't recall at 

ĥis time if X participated in that raid or not, air.

Q On uutaw Place, on direct you testified that —  I 

thinkXyou said to the best of your knowledge you told the per­

son at the door the name of the suspects, did you use this 

phrase "to the best of your knowledge, that means your recol 

lection is not clear?

A When I use the phrase "to the best of my knowledge 

I am answering, X can't state to you word for word what I 

actually stated to the gentlemen verbatim, no, sir.

Q So you are not sure you told him the name of the 

subject who you were looking for?

A We told him the name of the subject we were* lookin|g 

for as I previously testified but wora for word, the exact 

words tnat I used to the best of my recollection I don't recalpL 

the exact wording.

Q Do you remember the exact words that he used, the



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603

person who opened the uoor?

N. A To the best or ray knowledge he said, you arc wel­

come to look arounu or search the house, or go through the 

aouse.

(4 ion can rememtcz' him word lor woruv

A x uiu not say wore zor word, x Just put xt three 

diXlereut ways, he saxu you are welcome to look arounu —  1  

uon't know 1 1 no suxu look arounu, search the house, go through 

toe house or wi*nt.

t* when he openeu the uoor wasn't your lirst abjectly 

to sue 1 1 there was aiiy uaiige*, anyone behind him, didn't you 

want to Iook arounu lirst?

A ns x abateu In previous testimony, sxr, it was one 

large single uoor, when the uoor openeu It went completely 

agamst tne wall ana tne subject was standing there anu 1 1  

there was anyoody behind tne uoor the uoor wouldn't have went 

that lar back and we could see directly down tne nail.

Q wnat about tne parlor on tne lelt, did you look in 

there lirst?

A The other ollicera apparently nau iookeu in cncre 

but we did not look in tnere, we went directly through the hali 

sir.

Q X mean when you lirst. looked in, didn't you look

and see who was in tnis room over tnere?

A The sliding doors were checkedN^nd they were lockec



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Q They were not half open?

A \ No, air.

MR, NABRIT: Your witness,

MR, £>AUSii: No questions.

Thank you very much, Sergeant,

TRt) COURT* Is it plaintiff 8 wish that any of 

these witnesses be held, you may want them later, let me know 

otherwise I guess they ought to get back to duty,

MR. NABRIT* Well, Your Honor, I understood that 

the records of some of these raids would be made available to 

us.

THE COURT* They were not asked for and I didn't 

know that anybody had asked for them. Would you like to see 

them?

MR. NABRIT* I would like to see any report made 

by this witness.

MR. MURPHY* If Your Honor please, that is why we 

had the Special Master,

THE COURT* Well, you put a witness on the stand. 

Let me see his report. Get all the reports on this. Have you 

got them there?

MR. MURPHY* Your Honor, this report was made afte; 

this suit was filed.

THE COURT* Was this shown to the Master?

MR. MURPHY* Yes, sir, I believe it was.



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THE COURT: The fact that he looked at some of

these doesn’t necessarily make all —  it doesn't entitle you 

to it, tne fact that he refreshed his recollection from it, 

Noth, what are you asKing, or if you ask for something I think 

it may make xt admissible at the instance of the btate unoer 

tht general rule —  thl. isn't a Government case —  and under 

tht general rule in Maryland if one side calls on the other to 

produce something which they are not required to produce and 

he sees it, it becomes admissible in evidence, is my understan* 

ing of the general rule, evidence rule in Maryland,

Now, if you wish to call for these particular re­

ports, I am not sure that you are entitled to them if the 

State objects, I am not sure that you would be entitled to be 

given them.

But what is it you want? You want this man's re­

port?

MR. NABRIT* Yes, Your Honor.

THL COURT: The witness who was put on the stand.

Is there any reason why t.,ey should not be shown 

and allowed to be used on cross examination, Mr. Murphy, the 

report of the particular witness, not the report of everybody 

else.

MR. MUR JHY: He hasn’t testified from the report,

he testified from his recollection of the events. He hasn't 

in any way referred to that report. \

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THE COURT: What is your objection? He said that

he had looked it over.

MR. WAiiRri': Hay it please the court, the witness

said, vnen i atnceu him uoout anocner eataoiianuient, cnat he 

oouiun't testify auout it without looking at his records.

Trig COURT: Well, oi* course, the point is you aske

him auout a nouso number, If ne participated in fifty raids 

it is hard to jxpuot mat he retaemoex* the house number. If 

nc was told tuat ne participated ana given some sort of an 

indication auout it ue might nave been able to recall it.

MR, WAHRiTt i aia my best to uescribe the house 

to tae witness, if Your honor recalls, a three-story frame 

house, the time of uay.

ihi. COURT; 1 uian't interrupt you because you wer 

apparently testing ills recollection, it didn't seem to me it 

affected the credibility much if he couian't remember a house 

number of so many.

i>iu he participate in the one?

HR, MURTHYi Wo.

THE COURT: That clears that up. This is then the

only one that he participated in so far as you know?

MR* wURTHY: Your Honor, to be helpful to counsel,

in any case wnere we have an officer on the stand we will be
\

happy to tell him wnich of tnese the officer was on,

THE COURT: Well, X think that is fair.



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than

MR. MURPHY; I think that will save time rather 

through the eignty houses ...

MR* hAxaltxi* x appreciate that, 

liia COURT: xu tiiora any reason why ...

\yki• MORPHY t I think, Your honor, at the beginning 

oi the exploxiatxwn xnto the records alter this suit was filed,

at the requeue \>i the Attorney Central these reports were made\
Aili• NtABIvl'i s This might sustain a prior contradic­

tory statement. Your lionor.
\THE u o U ii\i No, except this, it is a difficult

thing —  thiu is worth trying —  tnxs particuiar report is not\\
made xn the uruinax*y course o, business, how, sotije oi the re­

ports purport to be maae in the ox*ainary course of business, a
\ . - ■

report iaaae un December hbtii ana so iorth, or at the time it 

seems to me to be xn a different class fro* a report made to 

the Attorney der.eral after tnia suit was filed, how, this re­

port was not made in the ox*alnary coux*se of business*

MR. NA23RIT: Your Honor, perhaps I should amend ray

request to ask that the Court make a preliminary inquiry into 

the documents and determine whether or not it does contain any 

contradictory statements.

THE COURT: Well, now I think perhaps that there a;

let’s see what we have in the report which purports to be made 

as of the same date, the report of the Sergeant, then there is 

a whole lot of reports here made by the different officers



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608

whi^h were made obviously as part of the preparation of the
\

suit because after suit was filed this was one of the houses 

mentioned and it is natural to do that*

Now, there are certain records that were made con­

temporaneously, 1 suppose, as this was here.

MR. MURPHY: That was after the suit was filed,

Your Honor* 1 mean it was caused to have been made after the 

suit was filed to ascertain the nature of the witness.

THE COURT: ThiB is a record of another case which

was put in here.

The request is that the Court examine the state­

ments given by the witness after the suit was filea. Do you 

have any authority on it, does anybody have any authority on 

it because this will perhaps come in over and over again.

MR. NABRIT: Sir, an additional point is that this

report was given to the Special Master, they made their report 

on the basis of this file.

THE COURT: That is right, they were not asked to

report on this type of thing, they were asked to report on the 

information on which the entries were made. Now, if there is 

anything in this hiBtory that would bear on that point* but on 

the details oa the investigation in the house, that is what th:L 

men did and who shown the light where and who spoke where is 

something they were not asked to report on,

MR* SAUSE: If Your Honor please, if we were to a3k



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fbr the work product of their clients for them you would hear 

such squealing of deprivation of rights such a3 never been 

heard in t^xa court before. Wow, certainly, on our side we 

are entitled \o some confidential reiafxonshxp, too, between 

our cixents anu

'xhE ouuhV: Well, come to tne bench.

vn dxseusbxbu nat huu at the beach off the record.)
\
Vl%u\. NAHKil: x have no further quest ions of this

witness.

Kh. SncoE: Nothing i urther,

 ̂itf* X «t* fc>  ̂j

Eh, hhudn; berg cant Hughes.

Thereupon,

Wxnulak c. nuuuue., was called to the 3tand ana 

sworn us a witness and, having been first uuiy sworn, was ^xam 

inec ano testified as follows:

tHl cEnkn: State your name for the record?

THE WxikuUi: Sergeant William o. hughes, Northern

district, Eaiwxmore City follce Department.

TUn CDmhU: Tukc tne stand, please, Sergeant.

William C. uuglies.

THE ccbhf: hortnern District?

THE *ITiinbS: yes, sir.

CxiCCC x iiMCwij.iiJi T1 dft

609

BY .MR. HA USE:



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610

Sergeant, how long have you been on the police

Sixteen yeai’S.

last year, cud you participate in an investigation at 2416 

Eutaw 4>laoe?\

A Yet, air.

Q With reference to an attempt to serve an arrest

warrant?

A Yes, sir.

<4 Sergeant, what was your auty at that time?

A 1 hau a group of approximately lour or five men,

patrolmen, to cover the reur of 2410 Eutaw.

<4 To cover the rear?

A Yes, sir, In an attempt to apprehend anyone who 

may attempt to leave the real* of 2416 Eutaw .

<4 oergeant, hau you ever oeen on one of these arrestja 

before?

A in this particular investigation I was on numerous
ones.

Q Well, I mean have you been on $ny others in other 

cases in other years?

A Yes, sir. \• ■ V\
h is that a usual practice to cover the back of the

\house?



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611

A Oh, yes, sir.

Q Sergeant, why is that?

A Well, it has been a usual thing that the suspected

person will attempt to leave by any means possible, back, the 

sides, the roof top in an effort to escape arrest.

Q So you went to the rear of the house and how many 

men did you take with you?

A Four or five.

Q Were you armed?

A Yes, sir.

Q And with what type of weapon?

A I had a chest vest on and was armed with a .1 2

gauge shotgun, pump action.

Q Now, Sergeant, have you received speoial training .

A Yes, sir, I have.

Q ... in the operation of this gun?

A Yes, sir.

Q And any of these four or five officers with you ...

A Were armed with service revolvers and equipped with

two twelve volt hand flood lights.

Q Flood lights, they had no special weapons?

A None other than their service revolvers.

Q Tell His Honor Just briefly what you did? Did you

ever enter the house?

A No, sir, at no time did I enter the house.



612

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\ Q Any of the men under your command enter the house?

A No, sir.

Tell His Honor what you did at the rear of the
V

house, you anu the men unuer your command?
\\

A \  'we entered the alley in the rear of 2416 Eutaw at

approximately^ 1 :3 0  A.M. I aBBigneu two men to the rear gate, 

the rear of 24IC has a garage in the yard and the garage coverjii 

all of the back except for a walkway between the property at 

2414. The gate is at the house end of the garage. Two of the 

men were assignee in that walkway at the gate. Neither of the 

patrolmen entered the yarn.
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1 entered the yard at 241b, immediately north of 

2416. The yarc hau no fence anu it was open. I walked up to 

the rear of 2416. 1 stationed one man at the alley entrance

to the yard at 2416 where he coulu see the roof line of the 

building, and one man with rat. The officer with me had the 

hand light ana he shined the hand light in the area-way between 

2416 and 2416 Eutaw. This light was focused on a fire escape 

that ran between the two buildingB leading in and was in the 

proprety and attacnea to the property 2416 Eutaw.

The officers in the yard at 2416 that were standing 

outside the gate at 2416 were also equipped with a hand light,,

Q, Sergeant, is this a metal fire escape?

A 1 as, eir•

Q Or is it wood? \



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A No, sir, it is a metal fire escape that runs be­

tween the back of the house, it ha3 a porch enclosure on the 

first floor that is closed in and to the best of my knowledge 

the second and third floor porches were open, just a wooden 

railing around it.

Q Now, did you or anyone under your command ever go 

up that fire escape?

A No man in my command and at no time while we were 

in the rear did any man enter the yard past the gate, he was 

on the property up to the gate at the house end of the garage 

but neither myself or any man in my command entered that yard.

Q Did you see anybody that was in the house come out 

the fire escape or come out the back?

A No one come out pn the fire escape.

Q Approximately how long did you remain with the de­

tail in the rear of 2416 Eutaw Place?

A Oh, approximately fifteen minute's. I'd say fifteer 

minutes at the most,

MR. SAUSE: Your witness.

613

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. NABRIT:

Q Did ypu see anyone on tht/ fire escape during the 

period that you were there?

A No, sir.

Q Did you see anyone on the roof of 24l£ or any of

393

?inf



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614

the adjoining houses?

A Z^OQuldn't see the roof line but none of mj men 

went on to the roof.

(4 X askeu you, aid 2‘bu^see anyone?

A No, sir, 1 couldn't see th^roof,

Q Do you know whether or not any officers were assig 

ed to go on the roof of the adjoining houses or 24x6?

A No, sir, none of my men were assigned to th^roof 

and X know of no other officer being ordered on to a roof.

Q Sergeant, were there periods during this investi­

gation when you were in command?

A Yea, sir.

Q Do you know what those periods were?

A I don’t know when it ,

Q Was it a certain shift?

A I don’t know exactly when it started but I had the 

three P.M. to eleven P.M. shift for a period of time, the datê j 

I don’t recall.

Q Was it later in the Investigation?

A Yes, sir. o q 4

Q Later?

A Later, after the 27th of Deoember,

Q In that capacity did you lead any raids?

A Yes, sir,

MR. NABRITj Your Honor, earlier counsel offered tb



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THE COURT* There is no use in trying to tost the 

officers recollection on that.

BY MR. NABl̂ iT*

q 5\rgeant, aiu you happen to participate in tne 

Investigation i*^ember jjOth, about j**15 P*M. at 240o nuron 

Place, the Wallace \ ‘amlly?

A Huron.

<4 in the Mount'^inana section.

A 1 cion't recall no, sir.

THE COURT* That i* the place where somebody was 

showing some movies, or Borne slides, lights went on and off 

in the dining room, according to some oviuence.

THE WITNESS* ho, sir.

MR. MURPHY* That is the only one I don‘t have 

clear information on. That is why I asked counsel to auk him 

about that. \
THE COURT* 1 tninK they would remember the lights 

going on and off in the dining room.

BY MR. NABRIT*

Q Sergeant, you are assigned to the Northern ^strioH

615

or the Northeast?

A Northern District.
\

\

Q Northern District.

During the period when you were in charge of the 

investigation, Sergeant, did you have a problem with false



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616

telephone tips?

A Yes, sir.

Q Ana aia you indicate that to a newspaper man sayin 

it was a problem?

A X beg your pardon,

Q Did you indicate that to a newsman that that was

one of the problems?

MR, SAUSh: If Your Honor please, I don't under­

stand that question at all and I don't sec how the Sergeant ca 

answer it.

MR, NABRIT: He can answer.

THJb. COURT* I don't know whether he can or not.

If the Sergeant doesn't understand the question he can say so 

If he does understand it he can answer It, I don't know cnoug 

of the background to be able to say whether he should or should 

not, I will overrule the objection and see if the Sergeant 

understands the question enough to answer it.

THfc WITNESS* You mean did I tell newspaper people 

In particular?

BY MR. NAURU:

Q That you were having a problem of false tips.

A X told everybody that, my superiors and so forth,

that we were having problems with false tips,

Q l.'hat was the problem, what kind of false tips? D 

you take call3 yourself, for example?
3 9 6



617

A People would call and give ua Information, give 

us their name, their own name purportedly, and we'd attempt to 

meet them at a location to receive information and by the time

we'd get there or have some unit there to meet them, no one 

would show. We were wasting a lot of time running out this 

false information. They were giving us vacant houses or house 

that were torn down, no longer existed. We'd go into the area 

and waste a let of time,

Q Was there any change in the method of investigating 

tips because of this problem?

A Well, that is when we set up the change where the 

whole unit would leave from the station house. We were leaving 

on surveilance and investigation and observation.

Q Do you remember about when that change was made?

A No, sir, I don't.

Was it ,,,

It was early in the investigation to the best of 

my knowledge but the date I don't ...

Q After two or three days?

A Honestly, I couldn't answer shat, I don's recall.

Q How about anonymous phono calls, did you make raldr 

because of phone calls where people wouldn't give their names?

A We received information from all sources, communi­

cation bureau, tne news midia, other districts received Informs 

tion and we governed ourselves accordingly with what 9145. infor-



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mation and our surveilance would turn up to whether we inould 

make a raid or not.

618

anonymous.

THE COURT: The question was, were somv- of them 

THE WITNESS: Anonymous, yes, sir.

BY MR. NABRIT*

Q Do you remember about how ma^y of them that you 

knew about?

A No, sir, I have no knowledge.

Q A groat many?

A I couldn't even answer that.

THE COURT! I don't know what a great many means.

Would you aak the question wa3 It In the nature of ten, in the 

nature twenty five, in the nature of fifty, in the nature of 

a hundred anonymous tips?

THE WITNESS* I don’t think it would be twenty fiv 

It would be less than twenty five, probably more than ten.

THE COURT* And do you know how many you iailec. to

go out on?

THE WITNESS* No, sir.

THE COURT* Any, did you go out on any?

THE "ITNESS* Yes, sir, we failed to go out on som

yes, sir.

When I say failed to go out, we failed to take the

unit on a raid. We went out on it but we didn*t make any
3 9  I



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619

BY, MR. NABRIT:

\ Q Sergeant, do you have any knowledge concerning the 

raid dn any house on Roseaale, that is either in terms or be ini 

there oi; in terms of knowing how the raid came about?

A \ No, sir.

Q, \22Q4 Roseaale?

A No, sir, I wasn't there when the Information was

received on raia and I didn't participate in the raid.

q Sergeant, did you have anything to do with applyinj 

for or obtaining a\ Federal warrant for the Veney brothers?

A No, slr\

THE COURT'* That question has come up. Would you 

like to know who does know anything about it?

MR. NABRITi Yes, I would.

THE COURT: The quickest way would be to ask ...

ME. MURPHY: I think we can produce the warrant

itself and I think that would ba, the easiest way.

ME. NABRIT: What I was interested in is, which of

any officer in the Baltimore Department furnished the informa­

tion or applied ...

MR. MURPHY: I tnlnk Lieutenant Olover testified

concerning this warrant. As I recall you asked him the questl(
\THE COURT: He gave 3ome testimony but he wasn't

very clear about It.

MR, MURPHY: He didn't push him very



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THE COURT* It would help a good deal, there woul 

be an affidavit attaohed to it,, wouldn't there?

MR. MURPHY: I am not Bure of that, Your Honor.

THE COURT: iftio has it? I think we can clear the

matter.

MR, MURPHY: Lieutenant Camden., he has tne warrant

and perhaps at she time he testifys we can develop the time 

and circumstances under which the warrant was made.

TIDE COURT: That is all right.

BY MR. NABRIT; _i i   m .inMiir1 1 '■■■' "W"-**•»*--' "H*--** r̂ *""Tfcl'n "ULlni ~~

620

Q Sergeant, you testified you had been on the force 

sixteen years?

A Yes, sir.

Q How long have you been a sergeant, six*?

A April of '64, I think it was. Not a year.

Q Had there been prior investigations into other 

crimes where procedures similar to those used in this investi­

gation in terms were used?

A I don’t understand.

Q Let me narrow that down, acting on anonymous phone 

calls, other crimes?

A Yes, 3ir, service of warrants,

Q 1 beg your pardon.

A In the service of warrants, yes, sir.

Q Service of arrest warrants?



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621

A Yes, sir, People call in information that so and 

so is now at such and such location and we have a warrant for 

him, we check and we do have a warrant for that person, A car 

is dispatcher, there to look info the matter. If it seems that 

there Is anything to the person being there he calls for anoth 

car and they attempt to serve the warrant.

q Ana they make an entry and search on occasion?

A Yes, sir.

q ho from that point of view this is something —  

iiuve you partioipateu in others over a period of years?

A In serving warrants it is a requisit that the 

sergeant accompany the patrolman on the service of all criminaf 

warrants,

Q bo you have done this before since April '64, othe 

crimes?

A iea, sir. We don't tear a place up or search a 

place, as you put it, wo go xn and we question the person, if 

he is known there and so forth, talk to the people, and one 

occasion we have requested and received permission to hi

room,

MR. NABRIT: That is all.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much. Sergeant,

THE COURT: Let me speak to counsel again.

(Witness excused,)

(Discussion at the bench eff the record.)



622

MR. SAUSE* Lieutenant (tones.

Thereupon,

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LYMAN WILLIAM GONCE was called to the stand and 

sworn as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, was exaraf 

ined and testified as follows*

THE CLERK* State your name for the record?

THE' WITNESS * Lieutenant Lyman W. Gonce.

THE CLERK: Sp<2‘3kJL^our name, please?

THE WITNESSt Lyman, L~y-m~a-n, William, Gonce,
G-o-n-c-e.

THE CLERK* G-o-n-c-e?

TliE WITNESS* That Is correct. Northeastern Distrio 

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. SAUSE:

Q Lieutenant, how long have you been a member of the 
police force?

A Eighteen years.

Q How long have you been a lieutenant?

A Since November 19, 1964.
401

Q 1964?

A That la correct.

Q Now, directing yo.;r attention to December 2 7th of 

last year, did you have occasion to go to 2416 Eutaw Place?

A I did.

Q And would you tell His Honor first of all what was

t >



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your position or what was your capacity In going to 2416 JSutaw 

Place?

A I didn’t have an official capacity other than bein 

a police lieutenant. The investigation was being conducted by 

Lieutenant Manuel and actually I was working on the four to 

twelve shift anu after my tour of duty I cleaned up my papers  

and so forth, I was drinking a cup of coffee and several phone 

calls had came in and Lieutenant Manuel was discussing this on 

from the information that he received from this liquor store 

and so forth and I went along with them on this raid, only as 

an assist, that is all.

Q Did you go up to the house?

A After the armor division and Lieutenant Manuel had 

entered the home, it was approximately two or three minutes or 

maybe five minutes after they were inside, then I went in.

Q You went in?

A Yes, sir •

Q Now, did you

A No. The onlyNo. The only thing I had was my service revolver 

and that was in my overcoat pocket, in my uniform holster in 

ray overcoat pocket.

Q Did you have the gun out?

A No, I did not have my gun out, I had my hand on 

gun in ray pocket. I never took my gun out,

Q Now, Lieutenant, there vna testimony here the othe^
4 0 ?



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day by a woman who Indicated that she walked up the stairs and 

there was a man, a police officer behind her with a gun in her 

back,

h finat was not* a polios officer, that was me,

Q It was youi

a fnat is cox^reot,

Q And, Dieuuenant, you said you never had your gun 

out, Would you explain now tnat was?

A What happened, when I arrived I walked back through 

the hallway and if I am not mistaken it was Detective Oliver 

Walker, Detective Sergeant Shrinex* standing on the steps, I 

aBked them how far tney had gotten with the search and Lieuten 

ant Manuel was standing off the the side talking to some, 

apparently an occupant of the home and Detective Walker and 

Sergeant Shriner said they anticipated going upstairs but they 

were waiting for a member of the family or somebody to go up 

with them.

At that point a lady came down the stairs and whil 

the three of us wore standing there she said, what's going on? 

And at that time I told her, I said, we have reason to believe 

that subjects are here that are wanted for a serious offense, 

assault and shootxng, and she sale who? And said the Veneys 

She said, well, they're not here, X said, well, wouli you mlnjj 

If we go upstairs? She said, of course not, come on up. She 

started to go first and I said, no, please, don't go first, we



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Just want you to accompany us.

As we started up the stairs I started to follow the 

two men with armor plate on hut with that the lady got around 

on the side of me, in fact, I even took her arm while she got 

around on the side of rue and then the lady followed them and I 

followed the lady up to the second floor. Then there were 

several other officers who followed me, I don’t know, I’m not 

positive Just which ones.

Q Lieutenant, is the usual practice that the men wit 

the body armor go first if they have reason to believe there 

i3 a dangerous suspect in the house?

A Yes.

Q And where there is danger of —  is it a rule of 

your department where there is danger you don’t put a citizen 

in front of a police officer?

A Oh, of course, not, no,

Q That is what I thought.

A We Just wanted the lady to go with us, in fact, 

before we went up there I aBked her if there were any other 

women upstairs in bed asleep, unclothed and she said no.

MR. SAUSiij Your witness:

CROSS KXAMXKATIQN 4 C 4

BY MR. NABRIT*

Q Lieutenant, where were you standing when the door

opened?



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626

\  A I was standing in front of the house next door.

Q\ Which side facing the house?

A \ Wait a minute now, I'm not positive which way it 

runs. If yoir were lacing the house I would have been to the 

left, to the lel\ where there is a stairway to the other house,, 

Q How lon^ after the first officer went in did you

enter?

A 

Q

in?

A

seven or

\
Well, there was a light lit when we first arrived , 

I aeked you how long after they went in die you go

I'd say five minutes, maybe three minutes, or maybf 
«

eight minutes.

Q How many officers went in before you?

A Men viitn armor and Lieutenant Manuel,

Q Any others?

A No, 3ir.

Q So that would be how many men with armor?

A Approximately four. \

Q How many came behind you?

A How many came behind me, I'm not positive, it 

couldn't have been more than maybe two uniformed men because 

I was —  after the lady took us upstairs I don't even rememtm 

any uniformed men being upstairs with us.

Q Did you go to the third floor?

A No, I did not. When I arrived on the seoonu floor



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the back door was locked and to the best of my memory It was 

Sergeant Shrlner a3ked for a key, the lady said, wait a minute 

We waited and she came back with a key, I don't know where sh^ 

went to get the key. She went down the hall and I remained

between the door arid the steps leading down to the first floor

I uo not know who actually opened the back door but I know the 

lady did not go in first, the lauy backed off away from the 

officers as they went in.

After the officers went in, then I went in. There 

was a back door, another door and if 6

Q This is inside the locked door?  — 1

A That is right, inside the locked room and it was

one of the detectives starting to unlock the door and at that 

time I said, wait, there's officers out back, at least let a 

uniform go out there, and when I opened up the door I hollered 

out, police, and then 2 looked and it was a back porch, I 

walked around the back porch, I looked over the back porch 

railing on the right hand side and to the best of ray knowledge 

there was a long fire escape leading up to the roof and I askec 

one of the officers standing down in the alley if he had been 

watching the fire escape. He said he taid been watching the 

fire escape before you all even went inside, I a/.id, has any­

body gone up or down and somebody in the allby said, no, no 

police and there hasn't been anybody else use tĥ it fire escape,

Q Now, at this point you were on an opeiAporch on the

627



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third floor?

A Yea,

0. Did you have a flashlite?

A air?

Q Did you have a flashlite?

A Oh, yes.

Q And it was on, the flashlite was on?

A On ,\yea.

Q Was this on the third floor. the second floor?

A The second floor. We came back in, one of the men

locked the door and gave the key back to the lady and then the 

lady went up to the third floor with, I think it was Sergeant 

Connolly, Detective De Paula, maybe another officer, I don't 

know, and I remained on the second floor near the landing.

When they came uown we went right down the steps 

and with that we went right on out the front door ana Lieuten­

ant iflanuel and several of the others were following. I heard 

somebody give some sort of a holiday greeting but I didn't re­

spond because I didn't hear it that well.

Q Now, do I understand you correctly to say that when 

you were going up the steps there were two men with body armor, 

the lady ... \

A They were standing ... \

Q Well, I am trying to get the order of\people who

went up,first the two men with body armor, then this lady who

\



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met you, then some more men with body armor?

A That is correct. I started to go in front of the 

lady but then the lady kind of worked around us.

Q And you all went up one after the other?

That iB correct. When we got to the top I didn't 

The men behind you had weapons?

Ion.

Tĥ s men behind you had either shotguns or machine

A

Q

A

Q

guns?

A Oh, yes* there would have been probably one or two

shotguns.

Q Now, you 3aid you questioned her as to who was 

upstairs, did she tell you there was nobody up there but her 

children?

A The only thing I remember asking her about upstair 

is there any women up there because I knew that our men would 

want to enter the rooms first and if there would have been any 

women in any of those rooms, we wanted her to call through the 

door first*

I do recollect her saying something about, are you 

going to wake my children and I told her we*re not here to wak: 

children. Now, I don't even know if there wa^ any children in 

the rooms upstairs.

Q You didn't go to the third floor?

A No, I didn't go to the third floor andvon the



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1 V
second floor the only room I went In was all the way to the 

back.

^ Did you aak her if the Veney brothers were upstair 

A Wo, I didn't. I told her what we were thexe for, 

we had reasonable ground to believe that they may be there and 

would she mif̂ d us looking around, She said, no, inaeeu. And 

she started up\first and that's when 1 tola her, no, come back 

we don’t want you to go first*

Q She had Just come down?

A She had Just come uown from ups taxi's for something

I don’t know what she was doing up there.

Q But you aidn’t ask her who was upstairs?

A I aekea her If there was any women up there. I 

wanted to make sure that ... \

Q I take it you were going upstairs no matter what 

she said?

A No, I wouldn’t say that. The lady was so agreeabl 

with us I Just didn't go any further with it.

Q Well, what was her answer when you asked her if 

there were any women upstairs? \

A Bhe said, no, there's no women upstairs.

Bid you ask her if there were any men upsdalrs?Q

A I may iiave, X don't know. I don't recall that.
\

MR, NABRIT: Your witness.

MR. BAUSB: No questions. Thank you very\raueh, Lt.

\



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(Witness excuseu.)

JHE dOURT: Perhaps this would be a good time to

take a break uniebs^ou would rather take it later.

»<c wxlx taue n^ahor b recess.

631

^nuucss.) 

i‘u i• as lour Honor nave nearu the Pollc

department is on a full-time scneduie and i Would like to take 

this lieutenant out or turn because it would work out better.

Thereupon, ....... ..... ^ ""

Uudidu G. «-»v/iuw»iii4jj# was called to the stand and 

sworn as a witness and, having been first uuly sworn, was exam 

ined and testrlled as followsi

Tibi GLuRKi State your name for the record?

TJib WlfitGLii: George u. Schnabel, G-c-h-n-a-b-e-1

iiin djdsHivi S-c-h-n-a-b-e-l, Gcoi>ge C. Schnabel. 

blKnwT ivXAMIAIATIGK

B7 MR. 3AUSB:

Q, Lieutenant, how long have you been a member of the 

police force? \

A eighteen years.

Q How iong have you been a lieutenant?
\A September, 19b9.

Q how, directing your attention tbyJanuary 2nd, of 

this year, did you participate in an investigation in an attemb

to serve warrants at 2707 Parkwood Avenue?



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632

\ A Yea, air.

Q What was your capacity there. Lieutenant?

A Well, actually 1 was assistant to Lieutenant

Hewes who was actually in charge.

Q Now, tell His Honor what happened after you arrive< 

there and what was the extent of your participation and what 

you observed?

A Well, I'll have to start a little ahead of that.

Q All right.

A About 1:15 A.M. on the second I received a call 

from my dispatcher who said a taxi driver would meet me at 

North Avenue and Pulton Street and give me information as to 

where the Veney brothers could be found, I immediately called 

Sergeant McManus who is a member of the riot squad, Sergeant 

Mathias and Office Hyde, on cruiser patrol, and we proceeded 

to North Avenue and Pulton Street where we met the cab driver, 

a Diamond cab, 893, and he stated that the house at 712 Newing­

ton Avenue, he suspected that the Veneys would probably visit 

this house. Upon getting this information as the house was in 

the Northern District I went to my microphone and started to 

call for the lieutenant in the Northern District and as I was 

calling Lieutenant Hewes was calling for C.P, 12 and several 

of his other cars to meet him at Fulton and Flora. I immediate 

ly took the cab driver and went to Fulton and Flora where the 

cab driver related the information to Lieutenant Hdwes and



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633

Lieutenant Hewes also stated that he had turned Newington 

Avenue up, it had been turned up before, and we dismiss-d the 

cab driver.

While we were waiting for Cruiser Patrol 11 to 

arrive this colored male —  he was in his late thirties —  cam* 

up and said, are you going to turn up Parkwooa Avenue? And we 

said, yes. And he said, this is the information the Afro boy 

told me about and X called in, and someone asked the man his 

name and the man said, 1 don't want to get involved but if 

anything happens the Afro boy will step up and tell you who it 

is.

Lo we then —  then the Lieutenant Hewes tola us 

the address ol 2707 Parkwooa where we were going to gc around, 

So in the meantime the cruiser patrol pulled up, the men got 02 

their armor ana the different men took shotguns and we proceed< 

to this Parkwooa where Lieutenant Hewes knocked on the door. 

Upon receiving no answer took a stick ana he hit the door a 

little louder ana at that time a colored feraala appeared at th^ 

door anu Lieutenant Hewes tola the colored female who we were 

looking for and asked permission tc search the house and she 

said, certainly. Ana that is when we went into the house.

I went up to the second floor with Sergeant KcManun 

and Officer Hyde and went into tae middle room where I and 

Sergeant McManus proceeded to searen, Two small children 

were sleeping in the bed. The children were not awakened.



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634

About three or four minutes later I heard someone 

call, everything la all right, and then Sergeant McManus and 

Officer Hyde and myself, we proceeded downstairs. At that

time I saw Lieutenant Hewes apologizing to the lady for
\

interrupting and we left.\
<4 Were you wearing body armor?\
A Wo, I was not.

Q Lid you follow someone else, you followed other

officers into the horau, is that right?

A Sir.

Q You did not go into the home first, you followed

other officers?

A Lieutenant Hewgb went in first, then I went in. 

THE COURT* Was he in body armor?

THE WITNESS* No, he was not.

EY MR. SAUSEs

Q This cruising patrol that you were referring to, 

is that the emergency vehicle?

A Yes, it was.

Q How were you armed. Lieutenant?

A I had my revolver in ray coat pocket, my overcoat 

pocket.

Q You didn't take it out?

A No, I did not,

Q Lieutenant, did you have any conversation with any



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635

V  , .
of the occupants In the home?

A No, I did not.

Q Did you overhear any conversation that anyone else

iiad with UiQ occupants of the home?
\

A Just Lieutenant Hewes speaking to the lady of the
\

house.

Q When you left?

A Sir.

Q Was that when you were leaving?

A When we entered I heard Lieutenant Hewes, and he

also showed her pictures of the Vency brothers.

THE COURT* When?

THE WITNESS* At the beginning, before we entered. 

BY MR. SAUSE*

Q You heard Lieutenant Hewes talking and requesting

permission to ...

A Search.

Q ... inspect the home and you also saw him show

pictures to the occupants ...

A Yes, sir.

Q ... or the female occupant of the home, is that

right?

A That is right.

Q Did you hear anything that this female occupant sa:

A Well, she said, she gave permission to search.



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636

\ Q Did you hear that?

A She said, certainly, go ahead and search. That’s 

her exact worua, certainly, go ahead and search.

Q nid you hear what you said as you were leaving? 

You said Liyutenant Hewes was talking to her again?

A Add her exact words were, that’s quite all right, 

you are only tiding your job.

MR. SAUSK: Your witness.

\  CROSS EXAMINATION

liY MR. NABRIT:

Q Lieutenant- Schnabel, is it?

A Yes, sir.

Q Lieutenant, approximately how many men entered

2707 Parkwood that night, police officers?

A Let’s see, myself —  I’d say between six and eight 

Q Vihen you went to the front door Lieutenant Hewes 
did the knocking?

A Yes, he did.

Q And how many other men were standing there near hi 

A Myself and two men in armor, Sergeant McManus, 

Sergeant Mathias, Officer Hyde.

Q Where were you standing when —  where was Lieutena 

HewQ3 standing when he displayed these pictures to the lady 

who answered the door?

A Well, he was standing inside, Inside the door.



637

Was this in the living room or in the corridor

A X think —  wait a minute,

Q \when you Bteppea in the door .

A 1 tnink the lady said, come in, I'm not sure of 

that now whether it was in the vestibule or in the living room,, 

I'm not sure,

Q The vestibule area is very small, isn't it?

A Yes,

Q And when you go through the second door isn't there 

a hall there in front of you and the living room on the right?

A The living room on the 3ide, yes. We could have 

been in that living room, I'm not very sure about that, whether 

we were in the vestibule or the living room,

Q. Or the hall in front of the living room?

A Yea,

Q You coula have been in any of the three places when 

the conversation went on?

A Right.

Q Now, what was the substance of that conversation

between Lieutenant Hewes and ,,,

A Well, Lieutenant Hewes told her what we were there 

for and showed her pictures and asked her permission to search,

Q And he Bhowea her the pictures before he asked per­

mission to search?



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A Yes.

\  Q Yes?

A Yes. He also said something about a Garrett, does 

a Garrett live here or something like that. I didn’t know 

anything about this but X heard him say something about, does 

a Garrett live here.

Q Lieutenant Hewes asked the lady if a Garrett

lived there?

A Yes. He had the information and I wasn’t familiar 

with the information he had.

Q And your recollection is that at this point that 

that conversation was either in the vestibule, in the hall or 

in the living room?

A Yee# I’m not sure.

Q You wouldn’t deny it was in the living room, would

you?

A I couldn't deny it, no, because it is not clear.

A lot of people will say, well, step in, I don't want the 

neighbors, you know. I'm not sure.

Q Had the two men in armor also entered right behind

you?

A Behind us, yes, Blr.

Q And were they there during this conversation?

A To the best of my knowledge they were there. I kn< 

nobody went upstairs until we got permission from the lady to



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639

go through the house,

Q And the two men in armor had their weapons display 

A Yes,

THE COURT} Who went in first, the two men with

armor? \

THE WITNESSi No, Lieutenant Hewes, Lieutenant 

Hewss, then I followed,

THE COURT} And the men in armor behind you?

THE WITNESS} Yes, sir.

THE COURT} They come in right behind you?

THE WITNESS} Right behind us.

BY MR. NABRIT:

Q When you got to the second floor you went in the 

middle room?

A The middle room, yes.

Q And you observed two small children, I believe you

said?

A Yes,

Q And you testified they were not awake?

A They were not awakened, no.

Q How do you know that, sir?

A Because I looked at them.

Q And their eyes were closed?

A Yes.

Q And Is that the basis that you determined they



640

not awake?

MR. SAUSE: Well, if Your Honor please, I don’t

know what human being could determine that in any other taanner 

THE COURT: I don’t see any use of interrupting

the cross examination on it. The Court is
\
HR. SAUSE: Well, I object,

THE COURT: The Court is conscious of the point

you make,

MR. SAUSE: Well, if he pursues it any further,

Your Honor, as he is about to do.

THE COURT: Well, I will wait for an attention.

MR. SAUSE: Yes, sir.

BY MR. MERIT:

Q Do you know if those children were boys or girls?

A Let's see, they were boys. I’m almost sure they

were boys.

Q
A

Q

A

Q

children

A

Q

A

Did you turn the light on in that room?

No, we did not.

How did you see?

With a search light.

And was the light shown on the beds where the 

were ?

Oh, yes.

How many of you entered that room?

There yjas myself, Sex’geant McManus and Officer Hyde*



641

Q Three of you?

A Yes.

Q And were there other men, other officers on that

floor at the same time?

A Yea,

How many others?

A I'm not sure, X uon't know.

Q Die you or Officer McManus or Officer Jfyde go in

the front bedroom?

A ho, we did not.

Q hone of the three of you did?

A ho, we stayed in there.

Q Did either of the three of you go in the rear bed-

room?

A ho, we did not.

Q Ano there were other officers in those bedrooms at

the same time you were in the middle room?

A I Imagine there were, I couldn't swear to it. 

There was noise in the hallway.

Q There was noise in the hallway?

A Yea.

Q Did the men make any effort to be quiet?

A Yes, sir. 1 told my men not to wake the children.

I have children of my own.

Q had you been told there were children in those roots?



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A No.

Q Had you Inquired before you went up there?

A No.

Q i>ia anyone ask who was upstairs before you went

upstairs?

A X didn't hear anyone ask, no,

THb COURT: I am trying to place 2707 Parkwood

Avenue. Parkwood or Parkview?

THC WXTNiiod: Parkwooa.

THIS COURT: Parkwood, Well, where is ParKwood?

THU WITNESS: Your Honor, it is off of Fulton

Avenue, that's all I know. I'm not from over in that district,

THB COURT: Off of Fulton Avenue and up near

Druid Hill Park?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir,

BY MR. NABRIT:

Q Am I oorrect that this is an attached house, small 

narrow house?

A It is a row house, yes,

Q Row house, about how wide?

A I don't know, I have no idea,

Q About fifteen feet, do you think?

A 1 imagine so.

Q You imagine so.

About what time did you arrive at the house?



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A About five minutes to two.

\  Q Now, while you were upstairs, did the lady of the 

house accompany you upstairs?

A No, she did not.

Q Did she come upstairs later on?

A \Not to mi’ knowledge she didn't.

Q Officer, I didn't hear your testimony about the 

Afro ...

THE COURT: I didn't understand it at all. I wou:

like to have the story of why they went in. If you hadn't 

asked I would have asked him to tell us again a little more 

clearly why they went into this house and what did Garrett 

have to do with it anu so forth.

THE WITNESSi Well, actually, I did not receive 

the information on this Parkwood. While we wore waiting for 

Cruiser Patrol 11 this man came up to Lieutenant Hewes and 

myself and asked us if we were going to hit the house on Park* 

wood.

THE COURT: Just the house?

THE WITNESS: Just the house, he didn't give us

a number, he said the house on Parkwood.

THE COURT: This is a man not connected with the

police?

THE WITNESS: No, this was a civilian, and he sail

is this the house that the Afro boy had information on and he



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didn't mention the house number*

THE COURT: And you didn't know what he wa3 talk;

about, whleh house he was referring to?

THE WITNESS: No, I Uld not.

THE COURT: You Just went along with Lieutenant

Hew rs?

THE WITNESS: Lieutenant Hewe», yes, sir.

THE COURT: Lieutenant Hew^e was in charge?

THE WITNESS: Yc b.

THE COURT: Is Lieutenant Hewes going to testlfyl

MR. MURPHY: Yea, Your Honor, he is here to test!

BY MR. NABRIT:

Q Lid you go on a raid at 2408 Huron Place, 9:15 at 

night on December 30th, in the Mount Winans area, the Wallace 

family ?

A What time?

Q About nine or later in the evening,

A No, I was twelve to eight. I was twelve midnight 

to eight in the morning. I was not working,

Q How many raids did you go on during your twelve 

midnight to eight in the morning shift during this InvestigatJ

A Around six or seven,

THE COURT: Which district are you assigned to?

THE WITNESSt Northeast.

THE COURT: But you were not part of this squad?



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THE WITNESS: No, I was not.

Q You testifieu that the lady who answered the door 

at some point said, go ahead and search or something like that

BY MR. NABRIT;

A

Q

A

Q
A

Q

A

k

A

\  Yes.

Hov; many men were in the house at that point, poltj 

Just myself and Lieutenant Hughes.

And the two men behind you? 

well, they were waiting.

Where were they waiting?

They were waiting at the door.

In the front hallway?

Yes. In other words, they were waiting behind us, 

I don't know whether I was in the hallway or if I was in the 

living room now, it is not clear.

MR. NABRIT* No further questions.

MR. MURPHY: All right, thank you very much,

(Witness excused.)

Thereupon,

ROBERT DE PAULA vias callea to the stand and sworn 

as a witness and, having beer first duly Bworn, was examined 

and testified as follows;

THE CLERK; State ̂ your name for the record, please 

THE WITNESS* DotectivexRobert De Paula, Assault 

and Robbery Squad, Detective Bureau.



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DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY m 9 SAUSEs

of the

Detective De Paula, how long have you been a membe 

Uce force?

A M'm on my thirteenth year,

Q Ndw, directing your attention to December 2 7th of 

last year, did you have occasion to participate in an inspec­

tion of the premises at 2416 Eutaw Place?

A I did, sir,

Q Now, were you clad in boay armor at that time?

A Yes, sir, I was.

Q And what sort of weapon , if any, were you carry in, 

A I was carrying a ,12 gauge shotgun,

Q Have you received special training in the handling 

of that weapon?

A I have, sir,

Q Now, tell His Honor what happened that night?

A Well, on orders from my superior and after an obse^ 

vation of 2416 Eutaw Place we responded to that location,

Sergeant Shriner and myself went to the front door in our armoi*\
Sergeant Shriner knocked on the door, a colored male in his

bottoms
pajama /answered the door, Sergeant Shriner asked him —  told 
him why we were here and asked him if we could search and he 

said, certainly. With that Lieutenant Manuel come up, permissL 

was given us to search, Sergeant Shriner and Detective Oliver

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Walker went into the dining room of this location, I was check 

ing the living room at the time wnen a woman come down from 

the second floor. She asked us what we were doing, we told 

her that we naa information the suspects in the assault and 

shooting of a police officer were in the house and we a s k e d  

her if we coulu I o o k  upstairs, o n e  said, certainly. £>he was

laughing the whole time, ohe started to follow us up the
\\steps, I asked to go in front of her because X had the bullet

proof vest on. \\
At no time was there any objection to the search 

whatsoever ana at no time did X see any children in the house 

at all.

X went to the second and third floor.

Q You have been sitting her in court this morning, 

haven’t you?

A Yes, I have.

Q Now, Detective, going back a bit to when you first

went in, you said you saw this subject in what appeared to be 

his pajama bottoms. Did you pat that man down?

A No, sir, nobody patted him down.

<4 In your thirteen years on the police force, based

upon your experience, is it necessary to pat a man down wno 

was wearing the type —  who was clad the way he was?

A I don’t know what he possibly could have haa on

him in his pajama bottom



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MR. SAIISE; 1 have no further questions. 

CROSS EXAMINATION

Q About what time of night was this?

BY MR. NABRIT:

A

A

Q

It was arouna one, one thirty in the morning.

Are you a Detective Sergeant?

Detective Patrolman.

Detective Patrolman De Paula, when you went to the 

front door and Sergeant Shriner knockeu, where were you?

A Standing right beside him.

Q Right beside him?

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, whi *h door was he knocking on, the inner door 

or outer door?

A As you go into the entrance there*s two doors open 

up like in half, the one was ajar. We went into the vestibule 

and Sergeant Shriner knocked on the large front door. It is 

only one door inside the vestibule. Sergeant Shriner knocked 

on that door.

Q And Walker and Connolly were where?

A Directly behind us.

Q In the vestibule also? \

A I'm not oertain whether they were in ^he vestibule 

or standing on the steps. I don't believe they could have 

possibly been in the vestibule with us, yet I can't say that



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they weren't.

Q Then when the door was opened what did you do?

A dergeant dhriner told the roan what we were there

for.

Vihat uxu he bay?

dir.
\

Q 

A

Q what axu he say?\
A ne saxu thuu we hau information that dam Veney\•. V

either iiveu here or xs here now. And the man said, well, 

you're welcome to search, ano with that Lieutenant Manuel 

come up and the same thing was repeatea.

Q The roan diun't say there was no dam Veney here?

A I aon't recall whether he saxa it or not.

Ci jjxu you ask him if dam Veney was there?

A Vie tola him that we had information that dam Veney 

either livea there or was there now,

Q But you aidn't ask him if dam Veney was there at 

that time?

A I had no conversation with the man at all.

Q You didn't hear dhrlner?

A I can't say that I did.

<i Bid you have any conversation with the man after 

you got inside the door? \

A X did not.

Q Did Shriner?



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A Him and Lieutenant Manuel was talking to him,

Q And the others, you and the other men had already

gone by him in the hall or were already In the hall during 

tnat conversation?

A We had proceeded on through after permission was 

given, Lieutenant Manuel continued his conversation with this 

man,
\

Q Lid you hear Lieutenant Manuel's conversation?

A No, I did not.

Q You said a lady came uown tne steps laughing, was 

she excited, did she appear to be excited?

A She was the most kindest and nicest person I ever 

met, in fact, I told Oliver Walker that when we left, thew 

woman from the second floor, I don't think she could have been 

anymore congenial, she was as nice as could be. She appreciati 

the fact we search her home,

Q And you went to the second floor with her?

A Yes, inuueu. \

Q And you went to the thira floor with her?

A Yes, I did,

Q Now, on the second floor what rooms did you go in?

A I went in the front room —  I went up the steps 

and turned to the left and I went through a room, and from 

this room to another room like to your left as you go in. In 

other words you turn left and there's another room to the left

650



651

i here.

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Q At the top of the steps Is a hall with a bedroom 

on your left and another room leading off that?

A After tnat bedroom to the left again there is

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another tearoom.

Q And those rooms were empty?

A Those rooms were all empty and Sergeant Connolly 

was with me with b light, in fact, X stepped into this other 

room before Sergeant Connolly could get to me and I asked him 

for a light because X couldn't find the switch. And we looked 

around, the cupboards were open and there was a shotgun, I'm 

pretty certain, in one of the cupboards.

Q did you go to any’ other rooms on that second floor?

A ho, X didn't.

Q Vihlie you were in those rooms were there other men

on the second floor in other rooms?

A 1 cannot be sure of that.

Q bid you see Walker or ...

A I did see .detective Walker but X don't remember 

whether I seen him in the hall or one of the rooms,

Q Going back a moment, down at the bottom of the 

steps did you ask the lady for permission to go upstairs or 

did someone else?

A We were talking to her as she —  in fact, she 

wanted to run right on upstairs.

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Q You say we, I want to know who.

A It was Sergeant Connolly and myself going up the 

steps. Whether anybody was with us Immediately while we were 

going up the stops, i wouldn't say because i am not sure. But 

she wanted to go up ahead of us ana we askea her not to, to let 

me go in front because x haa the vest on, which she aiu ao,

<4 wiu you as* her wnu was upstairs? 

n x asked her xf anyone was up tnere.

<4 Vvnat uiu she say?

A 1 uo not remember her exact reply but I thought 

that she said no one. However, i didn't see anyone up there 

at all.

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Q bid sne say no one but my children?

A I couldn't truthfully say.

Q How, when you went to the third floor what room 

did you go in?

A On the- third floor X went In the front room.

Q To the top of the steps and you turned left?

A 1 Deiieve so.

H Then was there another bedroom that is a bedroom, 

the first room to your left?

A Yea, sxr. \

Q The front bedroom? \

A Yea, sir.

Q And to the left of that is there still another room?25



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653

A I do not know.

Q Did you go in there and see a draftraan's tabl‘-

or something?

A No, l  aid not see any draftman's table.

Q What other rooms did you go in on the third floor?

A 1 believe l only went in that one room on the thir

floor, the hall ana that one bearoom.

Q When you went to that front tearoom on the third, 

floor did you turn the lights on?

A No, I don't believe I did.

Q Did you have a flashlite?

A I believe Sergeant oonnolly was with me with a

light.

Q Was the lady of the house with you?

A The same woman that I'm talking about was in court

the other day. I aon't see nor here today. I can describe 

her to you, ahe had a red sjclrt on, ane was a heavier set or 

big boned woman and Just as Jolly as she could be.

Q And you didn't see any children in that bedroom?

A I haven't seen a ohild in that nouse as yet.

Q Did you see any beds in that front bearoom?

A Yea, there was a bed. It was a regular bedroom.

Q Well, if I suggest to you, Sergeant,\that there

were four children in those bedrooms, would you deny It?

A I would have to say you have been misinformed, yes,



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This ia the third floor front?

This is the third floor front, yes, sir.

And you aon't recall any conversation where this

woman was with you saxa, oca's saint the light at iny cnxluren?

A Positively not.

^ Inhere are only two Deorooras on that thiru xloor, 

is that right?'

A 1 caWiot say tnat, sir, 1 uo not know.
V

Q How mary officers went to the thirc floor?

A r was with Sergeant Connolly and I believe there

was maybe one or two, tnere nau to be at least two other ones
\

up there.

<4 Were you present wnun an officer on the third floo 

had a conversation wxth this lady aoout a picture ox her hus­

band, a picture of a man?

A No, I wasn't.

MR. NAURU': No further questions.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much.

(Witness excused.)

MR, MURPHY: Sergeant Connoilyv.

Thereupon,

RXdHARl) L. CONNOLLY was calico to the stand ana

sworn as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, was oxan 

ined and testified as follows;

THE CLERK: State your name for the record?



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655

THE WITNESS: Sergeant Richard L, Connolly,

Northeastern District, assignee to plain clothes,

DIRECT iiXAMJLNATION

BY MR. SAUSii:

Q Sergeant, how long have you been a member of whe 

police force?
1

h April of this year will be thirteen years,

Q, how long have you been a sergeant?

A May of tnis year will be four years,

q directing your attention to December 27th, lust 

year, did you have occasion to participate in the inspection 

of the premises at 2416 Eutaw Place?

A fes, sir, 1 did.

Q in what capacity were you serving?

A I was the supervisor, not of the raid but in a

general capacity as a supervisor, a sergeant,

q sergeant, aiu you have any special protective equl 

Dent on or were you carrying any special service equipment?

A ho, sir. I was in plain clothes, I hau no armor,

I had my service revolver.

Q Did you have your revolver drawn or was it in the 

holster?
\

A ies, sir, 1 had it out, \

Q Tell His nonor what happened after yoW arrived at

the scene and what took place if and when you entersd the hous^

\



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from\the time you arrived there until you left?

A Well, I went to the door with Detective Sergeant 

Shriner, Detective De Paula and Detective Walker. I didn't 

have any armor so I stayed at the bottom of the steps and off 

to, I believe it was to the right of the door. Sergeant 

Shriner knocked at the door, and I saw him push the button for 

the doorbell. Several minutes later someone opened the door 

and Sergeant Shriner had a conversation with this man as to 

the cause for us being there. I heard him explain to the man 

that we had reason to believe that the persons we were looking 

for in connection with the assault and shooting of a police, 

in the homicide of a police may be at that residence and that 

I could hear the man on the inside say, well, go ahead and 

look around.

Immediately after that Lieutenant Manuel went to 

the —  came past me and tent through the aoor and had a conver 

aation with the men, which I didn't understand, or didn't hear 

because after we received permission to go ahead and look 

around we went on through the back.

Q Sergeant, stop right there for a second. Did you 

or anybody pat this man down?

A No, 3lr. I didn't sea anybody pat him down.

Q low was he dressed?

A He had pajama bottoms on and 1 thought he had a 

T-bhirt on. I didn't hear anybody else say that but I. thought



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657

he had a T-shirt on, I may be wrong, but he had pajama bottoms 

on.
q Lct&tsu on your experience i n  tne department is it 

necessui'y to p u t  a iiieu down who -uS ciothtU in that manner? 

k Wo, air.
^ Wow, you saia that Lieutenant Manuel went in and 

had an additional discussion with this o*an and what did you

do in the meantime?

n i went uauk through the hall, and I am not ramiliaf 

with how many root ns were hack there but I went with Detective 

Sergeant Shriner unu Detective Walker to the back and we 

looked through a couple rooms back there and then this same

man who hau openeu the uoor came back anc called to the ladyV
in the room bnat the uoor was locKeu and sne opened the door. 

She was dressed in night clothes and 1 think Detective to-lker 

hau a short conversation with ner and he walkeu away and 

Detective Shrxner stood in the doorway anu I shined the light

in there. X s t o o d  oxi t o  t h e  s l u e  o f  t h e  u o o r  a n d  3 h in e u  the\
light through that room so that he could see what was in there

you held the light away from your body?

a Yes, air, I stood off to the side and held the 

light away from me but I shined it arouna that\roora until 

Sergeant Shriner said O.K. And then i asked the lady how to 

get to the cellar and she pointed out to me where 'the cellar 

door would be and then X went down the cellar and thy same man



658

that had given us permission to come in the house —  I don't 

know whether he came down behind me or whether he was already 

there but I went to the door in the basement that was locked 

and this man told me that it was a roomer that used that room 

but he wasn't home and he said he would unlock it and he aid 

unlock it and I looked at that room while this man was there. 

And on the other side of that room was another door that led 

to a bathroom and 1 looked in the bathroom and X heard other 

officers on the other side of the door —  I believe there's 

two doors to that bathroom. The officers on the other side 

said there are police in here so I didn't bother going any 

further. So I left and that door was locked.

I then went to the second floor where I saw Officer 

Flynn. He had some keys to some cupboards on that floor. Then 

I saw a woman hand some keys to Sergeant Shriner on the second 

floor and then I went to the third floor with Doctor 

De Paula, Detective De Paula, and as far as I can remember on 

the third floorl looked in the back room. I don't recall 

looking in the front room, I looked in the back room on the 

third floor.
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Q How, when you left did you have any conversation wi 

any people in the house?

A No, sir. The only thing when I left somebody in 

the house wished us Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. We 

didn't think it was too merry ourselves.

th



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Q How long were you In the house, Sergeant?

A Well, I didn't time it but I didn't think we were 

in any longer than fifteen minutes, maybe twelve to eighteen 

minutes, so m e w h e r e  in t n e r e ,  X don't think it was any longer 

than that,

\ MR, SAUbii* four witness,

\  CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. NABRITs

t* Sergeant, on the third floor X understand you to 

say that you don't recall going into any of the rooms to the 

front of the house?

A No, sir, I don't recall going in, I may have but 

I remember the back room. It seemed like* to me i started to 

go in there and somebody said that room's o.k.

(4 How many officers were up on the third floor?

A I only recall on other officer there, Detective 

De Paula.

<4 There were no other officers?

A There may have been other officers but I don't

recall anybody else. LIko X say, when I started to go in a 

room and somebody said that room's o.k. Bo possibly somebody 

else Was there ana searched that room before I was there.

<4 Did you go all the way to the third floor back?

A Yes, sir.

<4

659

You did?



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660

A Yes, air.

Q So you went through a hallway and a kitchen and 

a dining room on the third floor?

A The back room is the one I started with, the one 

that goes out to the porch. I didn't open the door, to be 

honest with you. I started to and I seen it was an outside 

door and I just closed it because X knew there were officers 

in the back and X wasn't in uniform.

Q Did you go through the living room in that third 

floor apartment?

A X uon't recall going through the living room. I 
may have.

Q Were you present at any time, at any conversation 

with a third floor occupant where a police officer found her 

husband's pioture and what he looked like and where he worked1

A No, sir.

Q Did I understand you correctly to say that the la< 

in the first floor back bedroom pointed out the oellar door?

A Yes, sir, an elderly lady,

Q What do you mean she pointed it out?

A Well, I asked her where the cellar door was and 

she said you have to go downstairs for that.

Q And then?

A Then I said, what do you mean, and she said, she 

pointed like through this way, so I went back, I think it was



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661

two rooms, I wont back through those two rooms almost to the 

hallway, I believe it was, under- the stairs I believe the 

cellar door is. I’m not sure. But it is toward the front of 

the house*

q But she didn't come with you?

A Oh, no*

Q Bhe stayed back in the room?

A bhe stayed back, that's right, and I don't know

whether she was still in the room or whether she had walked ov

past that door shortly, but that is the only conversation I 

hua with anyone in the nouse other than what I had In the cel] 

ar with the man about the one room in the cellar.

q You mentioned a new name, a person named Flynn wae 

in the houae?

A Yes, sir. Officer Flynn*

q Ana you say you saw Flynn with keys to a cupboardl

A 1 believe there was some cupboards or closets on

the second floor, someone had given him the keys to these 

cupboards *

q You also saw a lady hand keys to Sergeant Shriner^

A Yes, sir*

q how, before you entered the house you said you

heard a conversation between Shriner and the man who opened 

the door?

A Yes, sir.



662

q How long did they talk before Shrinor went in?

A JU3t a matter of seconds, I would say long enough

to explain why we were there ana get the permission to go in*

Q What aia the man who openeu the door say?

A The onry thing I heard him say was, go ahead and

look around. You aon't have any trouble hearing Sergeant 

Shriner, he talks louu enough for you to hear, but I aidn't 

hear anything that the other person eaid other than go ahead 

and look around.

Q When you wept In was this man who opened the door 

to the right against the wall?

A 1 really don't remember,

Q Lid you ever see him with his hands up against

the wall?

A No, sir.

Q And you went in after Lieutenant Manuel?

A Yes, sir, he passed me and went in and I went in 

behind him and Sergeant bhriner.

Q Lid you see any children in the house at all?

A No, sir, x don't recall any children at all.

Q Were you in on any of' the other* eighty raids? 

Were you at Parkwood Avenue?

A No, sir.

Q Lutaw Place? This is Lufcaw, excuse me.

Huron Place?



663

A No, sir.

Q 2204 North Rosedale, empty house with a dog in itr

A I would have to check that, I don't recall it but 

I'd have to check to see if 1 was there, I don't recall that 

one.

k bhlelas Place, a narrow little street?

A 1 aon't recall that one either. I couldn't say

yes or no to that one.

k Ihe Shepherd house, the old lady taken down to 

the station?

A No, sir,

k Allendale, three story frame house?

A I'd have to cneck that.

k December 26 th.

A 26th?

Q December 26th at around four, four thirty in the 

afternoon?

A I don't think so, sir. I was at the funeral that

day. I may have oeen but I don't tnink so. I'd have to check.

4 Were you at a house where there were four small

children in the house alone?

A I don't recall.

Q 917 North d’hapel?

A I wa3 there, yes, air.

k Were you in charge or what was your capacity?



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A No, sir, Lieutenant Cadden was in charge*

Q And did you enter that house?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did you fine anyone inside?

A I don’t recall. The only thing I recall about 

this was that Lieutenant Caddenwas knocking on the door, the 

front door, and a small boy came from either on the steps or 

the street anu 3aid, I live here and he opened the ooor ana 

went in and we went in behind him and after that I’m blank,

I don’t recall anything at all about that.

Q You don't recall anything?

A I don't even rerauraber the house except that my 

picture was in the newspaper on this one and that is how I 

knew I was there. Other than the child coming to the door an 

letting us in, I recalled that after I saw the picture in the 

paper. That is how I recall that.

Q When you say child came to the door, you mean he 

came from outside?

A Yes, he was either on the sidewalk or on the stre< 

playing and he came to the door while we were knocking at ohe 

door.

Q Do you have any knowledge as to the reasons for 

that visit to 91? North Chapel?

A No, sir.

THE COURTs There is a note —  you haven't gotten



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these documents but there is a note on the back*

'"-Hp, NABF.IT: I wonder if I might see that?

I xLl. COURT: ourciy.

(A aisouasion was had at the bench.)

Mi. NABRIT; I have no further questions,

HR. MlTRx’HY: Thank you very much, Sergeant,

Lieutenant xiowes.

Thereupon,
ROBKRL J, liLViKS, v«as called to the stand an*': oworrjt 

as a witness ana, naving been first duly sworn, was examined 

and testifieu as followaj

: State your name for the"reco?<!I?““— -— ■

THE WiTNiSSSj Robert J. Howes, H-e-w-e-s,

THE CJAvrtK: R-o-w-e-s?

THE WITNESS: Lieutenant, assigned to tin. Northerrli

665

District,

BY MR. SAUSL;

LiitLCT EXAMINATION

q Lciutenant, how long have you been a member of the 

police force?

A Since '41.

Ci nnc now long have you been a lieutenant?

Since ’5b.

Lieutenant, January 2na, this year, at one o’clock£\

in the morning, a little after, die you nave occasion to go to



666

2707 Parkwood Avenue?

A Considerably after one o'clock, yes, 

li All right, Wiiy did you go there?

a i received a call from the dispatchex* over my

radio to call the dispatcher, When 1 calico the dispatcher X 

was put through to Lieutenant Gilbert Krutzer who was the 

lieutenant in charge ox communication on that particular shift. 

Lieutenant Krutzer informed me that he had received 

a call that the Veney brothers were shackeu up at 2707 Parkwood 

Avenue with a latnxly by the name of Garrett,

Q jciu the lieutenant tell you -- he tola you that 

•information hau come from where?

A He nau received a call, 

u How, acting on tnat information from the Ircutenarit 

what did you oo?

A First 1 urove u# 2707 Parkwooa Avenue to familiarize 

myself with the iocation. 1 tnen went to Pulton and Flora anc 

called the raaio dispatcher to notify the night inspector, 

inspector Frank Battaglia, tnat 1 was to make a turn up and 

searen of the Veney orothers.

Then I called for 501, 502, 503, Cruiser Patrol 5, 

Cruiser Patrol 11 ana the raaio sergeant 53 0, and also the 

bailiwick sergeant 5 3 4, to meet me at Fulton and Flora. While 

this Informanon was going over the air I received another 

call from the dispatcher to the effect that Inspector Battaglia

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667

would not bo able to meet me but to proceed with my turn up. 

While I was awaiting the arrival of my own cars 

Lieutenant Schnabel, accompanied by two sergeants and a patrol 

man and his cruising patrol, drove up. Now, I didn't know at 

the time what Lieutenant Schnabel was there for and I assumed 

that he had heard me call my oars and that he, a lieutenant 

in the Northeastern District, was to take over the turn up. 

Now, ray Cruising Patrol 5 arrived on the scene 

and they had a prisoner and seeing that Schnabel was there 

with his men I told him it won’t be necessary, continue to the 

station. And then Lieutenant Schnabel told his cruising patrc 

that they wouldn't be needed, to continue on their rounds.

All this was taking place,it covered a good five 

minutes, posBibly longer, and while I was talking to Lieutenair 

Schnabel and my Sergeant Schaffer, who was then the man in the 

530 car, a colored man crossed the street from, I would suppos< 

you would call the south side cf Fulton Avenue to the north 

side where we were standing, and asked me if we were going to 

make a turn up on Parkwood Avenue, And he was a real respectal 

looking man that I took it for granted that he was probably 

the reporter for the Afro. I don't know who he was. And I 

said to him, why are you inquiring? He 3aid, well, the Afro 

boy who serves this neighborhood told me that he observed two 

colored men who resembled the Veney brothers going into a house 

on Parkwood Avenue. And I said to him, are you the man who

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called communications and he said, yes. At this time one of 

my officers came up to me and asked me a question and 1 turner 

away from the man and the conversation continued between he 

and Sergeant &chaffer.

Now, do you want me to repeat the conversation?

MR. NABRXIj Objection, unless he heard it,

BY MR. SAUSE:

Q Did you hear it?

A I aid not hear it. When I turned back this man 

was crossing the street back to the south side of Pulton Avenu 

from which he had come.

Q You made no effort to pursue him, did you?

A Beg pardon.

Q You made no effort to pursue him?

A I, no, no.

THE COURT: Let me get this clear. Tell me again

what thi3 nice looking colored man, who you thought to be an 

Afro reporter, had said the Afro boy had told him.

THE WITNESS: Had told him?

THE COURT: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: What uid he say the boy said?

THE WITNESS: That he had seen two men who resembl:

the Veney brothers entering thiB house at 2707 Parkwoou Avenue.

THE COURT: The first time you stated it you didn't

410



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mention 2 70 7, you said entering a house,

THE WITNESS: Well, he —  I beg your pardon, Your

Honor, he didn’t say 2707, he said Parkwooo Avenue,

THE COURT| Weil, where aia the 2707 Parkwood 

Avenue come irom?

THE WITNESSs When he called communications he 

must have given communications that address because that is 

the address that they gave me,

BY MR. SAUSh:

W, Every time somebody mentioned Parkwooo Avenue to 

you, you inierrea that they were talking about the same place 

that you were?

A well, 1 wasn’t going to come out and say I was 

going to turn up 2/07 Parkwood Avenue to a stranger who hadn't 

identified himself. 1 asked him, why are you inquiring? And 

he tolc. me that he was the man who called communications,

W, All right, what happened after that, Lieutenant?

A Well, by this time Cruiser Patrol 11 arrived on 

the scene. Now, from the call sheets of my cars they called 

out of service at 1;55 A.H.

I placed the crew of 603 cur and Sergeant Schaffer 

in the alley in the rear of 2707 Parkwood Avenue, I placed 

the crew of 602 car on the even side of Parkwood Avenue, which 

would have been across the street from the subject house. At 

this time the officer of 516 car, which is a single-manned car,
411



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670

and I tola him to go up the street where the cruising patrol

was parked and he was to remain with that until we return». *

I then took the two officers from the cruising 

patrol, ou« Ox eg oixieex's xxom p01 oar, uuu incidentally, the 

uthex’ elxlceXe li-om the yOi cax W0i±w to who rear# That was nc 

my instruction, he went on hxs own*

haixiv.-,ck sexgsant die not snow up at thxs time 

enough he tells me that when I came out of the house he was 

there•

»'ui« hAixRjul i OhJeut to what ne told him,

xiih t Kbxl, x’<q Jusw telling j ou, he wasn’

there.

liih uOwiii: Ui, well, no doesn’t have to go Into

the tit wails,

Xiixa ivxiiiuoo i <>>o what xex t me with Lieutenant 

Schnabel, myself, Lergeunt i-iathias and sergeant McManus of the 

Worthed stern x>-.strxct, with two officers from cruising Patrol 

11, that is the emergency wagon, and myself. The two officers 

from the emergency wagon had on the protective vests. One of 

the men in the street, across the stx’oet, had on a protec Ive 

vest anti one of the officers in the alley in the rear had on a 

protective v-st, One of the officers from the C.F., cruising 

patrol, emergency vehicle, hau a rtexsing maohinegun, aub- 

maohinegun, the otnux officer hau a shotgun. Officer Hyde had 

a shotgun ana Officer Brown from the —  let me ace, wherever



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he*s from, he had on a protective veat, and he was also carry­

ing one of these portable lights,

how, i walked up and X looked for u doorbell whicty 

I didn't see. It is possible, X don't know, I haven't been 

back to the house, maybe the doorbell is one of those kind if 

your outside storm door is closed it isn't available, X 

don't jtnow. I didn't 3 e e  the doorbell,s
ho X took my hand and rapped on the door, X 

waited several minutes and X received no response and heard 

no stirring in the house so X borrowed a night stick from

Sergeant Mathias ana with the night stick X rappee on the eoor
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dnortly thereafter the door was opened by a color*

female and I said to her, police, may we come in? Anu she 

stepped back from this outside storm door, back to the inside 

door and I said to her, wnat is your name, please? Anc I 

thought that sue said her name was Lankford. X asked her if 

there was anyone there by the name of liarrett and she said, 

no, there is not. And I said, well, vje have information that 

the (Jarrett brothers —  the Veney brothers are shacked u p  here 

were holed up here, whatever you want to call it, may we come 

in. While this lady was talking to me she had gradually been 

stepping backwards so that by this time she was at the living 

room entrance ana tne living room entrance here to my recollec' 

tion wouldn't be but maybe three or four feet from that inner 

door, and she stepped inside to the living room where she had

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672

a light and I showed her the pictures of the Veney brothers 

that I had and also another photo of Earl Veney that I had 

and asked her if 3hu knew them. She said, no, she had never 

seen them before. And 1 said, 00 we have permission to searefy 

your house? She nodded her head first and then said yes.

Wow, while 1 was talking to this lady it is quite 

possible that other officers hau passed me. In fact, it must 

be that they did pass me because when I went upstairs to the 

second floor, the front room, beoroom, Officer Brown from th4 

C.P. was shinlrtg the portable light on a oolored male who was 

in bed who identified himself. Again, I thought the name was 

Lankford. He says, hr. Lankford. And as I walked in I hoard 

him say to this officer, take that light out of ray face, 

there's a light switch on the wall. And I went to turn it on 

and someone elsw turned it on. I believe it was Officer 

Leldhall, 501 car, and, of course, Mr. Lankford wanted to know 

what was going on and I said, we had information that the 

Veney brothers were holed up here and I showed him the picture 

that I had and askea him if he knew them and he said, no, I 

don't know them, only from seeing their pictures in the papex*. 

And I said, how long have you been a resident of this house? 

And he said, seven years, I believe. I said, do you know any 

of your neighbors? And he said, no, I'm a man who keeps to 

myself pretty much, X uon't mix with the neighbors. And I 3al[j 

do you know a man by the name of Garrett? He said, no, I don'

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I Bald, well, would either one of your next-door neighbors 
on either side of you named Garrett? He said, no, that I knoi 

they're not,

bo X walked back to the haii then and X called to 

Lieutenant bchnabei, come on, there's nothing here, let's get 

out of here, Anu aa Lieutenant bchnabei walked up I remember 

saying to him, this man's got to get up at four o'clock, it's 

after two now, let's get out of here. It's rough. X was in 

the post office five years myself and that's one reason I 

quit because I didn't like getting up.

Anyhow, we went downstairs and when we got down­

stairs the lauy of the house was still in the living room.

To my knowledge she had never left the living room, and I went 

in ana I apologized to her. I said, I'm awful sorry to distur 

you at this time of the morning, we get these calls, we have 

this information and we have to make these turn ups, I apolo­

gized to her, took my men and went out, I went back to my 

car, got back in my car and as I turned on the motor of the 

car the radio came on, I heard of a police being shot at at 

Pennsylvania ard bigin Avenue and that call came over at 2:10 

A.M, I couldn't have entered the house before 2:00 A.M., and 

I was out, walked up the street and in my car at 2:10 so I 

couldn't have been in the house at the outside eight minutes, 

how, in that front bedroom there was a young child

sleeping and that young child was not awakened,
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I don’t set how the raid could have been conduetet 

with more circumspection,

MR. iiAUhji: Your witness.

OHOoo iiAAMXNn'XXON

isi MK. NABRi.1;

<< ulcutenant, wnat time was it when you got your 

first call from ooromunxc&uxons that gave you this Parkwood.

A ine call from communications?

<4 li'fO'f rarKwoou.

A Yes* Well, the only thing 1 can tell you, counsel 

is that I know that at 1;15 1 was sitting on a vacant lot on 

Retreat Street lor tne purpose oi‘ watching Pennsylvania Avenue 

for any posaiole yoklngs and X Know that I left there at 1 :1 5 , 

and I would say tnat 1 had driven fox* possibly five minutes 

or so when I received that original call. Now, I can’t place 

the exact time but I know that it was at least five minutes 

after i:15.

Q Now, did you give tne address 2707 Parkwood over 

the police rauio in the police car?

A Oh, no,no, no, no, never. You get a call to call 

the dispatcher,

Q So it waB somewhere around, sometime after 1:15 

that you first learned of 2707 Parkwood?

A Yes, sir, 116
Q And it was sometime ax'ter 1:15 that you entered th<



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675

h o u s e ,  3 0 i a c t i m e  s h o r t l y  a f t e r  ,  * *

A I'm quite sure of that, counsel, because the m~n 

all called out of service at 1:55* It would take me —  wall, 

the distance we had to walk was not too far, maybe five hundr* 

yards but It would take me a couple minutes to place the men 

and X remember this •..

Q, I*ra not trying to pin you down to the exact minute

A Well, I-'ra going to tell you this, as I turned lnt<

Parkwood Avenue the lights on the tavern down the street went 

out and people started coming out of the side door. Nov/, I 

don't think that would have happened before 1*55# possibly 

closer to about 1:58*

Q It would have been at least forty five minutes 

after you first heard of it that you entered the house?

A Within forty five minutes? Oh, definitely, I*a»

sure*

Q Now, were you ordered to make a turn up by a supei 

lor officer at this house?

A Ordered to make a turn up?

Q Yes, were you ordered to go, did some superior 

officer that you answer to jrder you to go there or did you 

make the decision to go there?

A When you receive these calls that the Veney brothe 

naturally, as a lieutenant in charge of the shift it is rny dut 

to make the turn up*
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Q You acted on your own responsibility as the roan 

in charge?

A aure,

Q Now, os soon ob you got the call you drove by the 

address to familiarise yourself with the neighborhood?

A I answered the call to the operator from Whiteiocl 

Street, the yOO block of Whiteloek Street from the call box, 

and then I arove over to Parkwooa Avenue. Actually, frankly, 

I wasn't sure Just exactly the 2700 block was and I wanted to 

be sure,

Q So you just arove by, you didn’t stop in the blocl

A No, sir.

Q Did any aurveilance team go into that block?

A No, sir.

Q Were any of the neighbors or anyone questioned by 

your men or men working under your direction?

A No, sir, not at two o'clock in the morning,

Q Now, the dispatcher told you, am I correct, that

he had received a call?

A Yes, sir.

Q ... that the Veney brothers were holed up at

this place?

A With a naan by the name of Garrett.

Q With a man by the name of Garrett?

A Yes, he gave me that name, a man by the name of
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677

G a r r e t t .

Q Nov*, d i d  y o u  a a c e r t a i n  w h e r e  t h e  d i s p a t c h e r  g o t  

t h i s  i n f o r m a t i o n ?

A l i o ,  a i r .

(* D id  y o u  m ake an y  a t t e m p t  t o  f i n d  o u t  w h e re  t h e  

d i s p a t c h e r  - -  w ho t h e  d i s p a t c h e r  g o t  t h e  c a l l  f r o m ?

A C o u n s e l ,  i t  i s n ’ t  my J o b  t o  q u e s t i o n  t h e  r a d i o

d i s p a t c h e r ,  e v e n  t h o u g h  1  am f a r  a n a  aw ay s e n i o r  a n d  s o  f o r t h  

a n u  s o  o n ,  a n a  w a s t h e  n i g h t  c o m m a n a c r , n i g h t  s h i f t  com m an d er  

o f  t h e  N o r t h e r n  D i s t r i c t  1  am s t i l l  m ore  o r  l e s s  u n a e r  h i s  

o r d e r s  J u s t  l i k e  I  w o u ld  b e  u n d e r  L i e u t e n a n t  C a d d e n 's  i n  a 

h o m ic lu e  e v e n  e n o u g h  I ’ m many y e a r s  h i s  s e n i o r .

Q *30 t h e  a n s w e r  i s  i t  w a s n 't  y o u r  J o b  t o  d o  i t  a n d

y o u  d i d n ' t ?

A N o , s i r .  I t  i s  my J o b  t o  c a r r y  o u t  t h e  i n s t r u c t s  

p e r i o d .

THL COURT; I n s t r u c t i o n s  f r o m  whom?

THL W H N j£& S x F rom  t n e  r a d i o  d i s p a t c h e r .

T n n  COURT; W e l l ,  t h a t  i s  n o t  q u i t e  c l e a r  t o  me 

e i t h e r .  I  t h o u g h t  y o u  s a i d  a  m om ent a g o  t h a t  i t  w as y o u r  

d e c i s i o n  t o  m ake t h e  t u r n  u p  a n d  now y o u  s a y  y o u  w e r e  c a r r y i n p  

o u t  t h e  i n s t r u c t i o n s  o f  t h e  r a d i o  d i s p a t c h e r ,

I  t h i n k  c o u n s e l  w a n ts  t o  k n o w , a n d  t h e  C o u r t  w a n ts  

t o  k n o w , who w as i t  t n a c  m ade t h e  d e c i s i o n  t o  m ake t h e  t u r n  up 

w a s i t  y o u  o n  t h e  b a s i s  o f  t h e  i n f o r m a t i o n  t h a t  h a d  b e e n  g i v e r

119



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y o u ,  o r  w as i t  t h e  d i s p a t c h e r  o r  so m e o n e  o v e r  h im  w ho m ade

t h e  d e c i s i o n  o n  t h e  i n f o r m a t i o n  t h a t  h a d  b e e n  g i v e n  h im ?

THB w r ilic & tt : W e l l ,  l e t ' s  s a y  i t  t h i s  w a y , h a v i n g

r e c e i v e d  t h e  i n f o r m a t i o n  f r o m  t h e  r a d i o  d i s p a t c h e r ,  wno w as  

d o i n g  h i s  J o e ,  i t  t h e n  b e c a m e  ray j o b  t o  m axe t h e  t u r n  u p .

h o w , t h e  o n i y  o n e  w ho c o u l d  s t o p  t h a t  t u r n  u p  w o u jd  

n a v e  b e e n  t h e  n i g h t  i n s p e c t o r  w ho I  w as u n a b l e  t o  c o n t a c t ;  

a n d  1  am s u r e  h e  w o u ld  n o t  h a v e  s t o p p e d  i t .

BY MR. HABR1T*

Q i o u  D a se  t h a t  l a s t  s t a t e m e n t  o n  y o u r  g e n e r a l  

p r o c e u u r e ,

A T h e  g e n e r a l  p r o c e u u r e  o f  t h e  d e p a r t m e n t  i s  t h a t  

w h e n e v e r  y o u  a r e  t o  d o  a n y t h i n g  o u t  o f  t h e  o r d i n a r y  l i k e  t h a t ,  

o r  t h e r e  i s  a s e r i o u s  c r im e  o r  a n y t h i n g  o u t  o f  t h e  —  i n j u r y  t o  

a n  o f f i c e r  o r  s o m e t h in g  l i k e  t h a t ,  y o u  a r e  t o  i n f o r m  t h e  n ig h t  

i n s p e c t o r ,  i t  i s  a  c o u r t e s y  a s  muon a a  a n  o r d e r .  A f t e r  a l l ,  

i f  h e  i s  r e s p o n s i b l e  f o r  t h e  d i t y  1  f i g u r e ,  y o u  k n o w , i t  i s  

o n l y  a  m a t t e r  o f  c o u r t e s y ,

Q i o u  s a y  y o u  a r e  s u r e  h e  w o u l d n 't  h a v e  s t o p p e u  i t  

b e c a u s e  y o u  w e r e  a c t i n g  i n  a c c o r d a n c e  w i t h  r e g u l a r  p r o c e u u r e ?

A T h a t ' s  c o r r e c t ,  s i r .

Thai COURT: w h a t a i d  y o u  u n d e r s t a n d  y o u  w e r e  r e ­

q u i r e d  t o  d o ,  w hen a i d  y o u  u n o e r a t a n a  y o u  w e r e  r e q u i r e u  t o  mai<|e 

a t u r n  u p ,  w h e n e v e r  w h a t ?

THd w ifN iS ii:  J u d g e , I  am g o in g  by tw e n ty  f o u r



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years experience in the police department. You ask me why 

would I feel X was requii’cd to make that turn up?

THE COURT: Yes,

THE WITNESS: I would feel I'd been derelict in

ray duty if I  hadn't mace the turn up,

THE COURT: Based on the information you received0

THE WITNESS: I received information that the

Veney brothers were there and, as I say, I have been in the 

department twenty four years and it's never been done any 

different,

BY MR. NABRIT:

Q And Just to make sure I understand you, you didn't 

check on the dispatcher to find out who he had talked to and 

got this information from?

A He Just said he had received a phone call,

Q And he didn't say from whom?

A Actually', it isn't his place to have to tell me,

THE COURT: Well, actually, of course, at the time

you went in you had found out who he received it from?

MR, NABRIT: Well, maybe not, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Well, he said the man who had tola him

he was the one who called the dispatcher.

THE WITNESS: No, counsel, I can't say that the

decision was made because of this latter conversation with the 

person. I would have had to have gone anyhow, Judge, under the

679



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680

procedure ol" the department. There is no use trying to hide 

behinu that.

BY MR. NABftIT:

k That was after you made your initial aurveiianoe?

A Yes. If that man had never come up to rue on the

street I would still have gone in. Of course, I had no inten­

tion of having all those men witn m e. Lieutenant Schnabel anc 

his men appearing on the scene was a bolt out of the blue to n 

Of course, he later tola me that he nab come over to contact 

me to make this turn up on Newington Avenue, which was not 

made because I knew better on that one.

Q Novi, this man who came up to you on the street 

who you thought was a reporter, is he in the court room todays

A Sir, I have been on medical ever since that mornir 

I have had no chance to contact anyboay, this is my first day 

back to work.

Q I asked you if this man is in the room today, the 

man who talkea to you on the street?

A I wouldn't have the slightest idea. It was two 

o'clock in the morning ...

THE COURT: The Afro has more than one reporter.

THE WITNESS: I don't even know he was an Afro

reporter. Your Honor, he was Just a clean cut and nice looking 

fellow and he had such a nice manner with him, clean out and 

all and I thought, well, the only person who would know some­



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661

thing like this would be an Afro reporter* They are Jusi 

things that go through your mind* that's all*

BY MR. NABR1T:

<4 how, the men who went inw this house with you 

were Lieutenant Bchnabel, Bergeant Mathias, Officer McManus .

a Bergeant•

(* ....sergeant McManus, Officer hybe and Officer Brown?

A A n d  T h e l a n .

W Theland?

a fhclan, f-h-e-l-a-n. Be would have been on one

of the cruising patrols. Be and Brown wore on the cruising 

patrol, and also an officer from my district by the name of 

Yealdhall, Y-e-a-l-c-n-a-1-1.

h how, the man you found upstairs in the bea you 

thought his name was Lankford or something like that?

A Yes •

Lid you ask him where he worked?

A ho. 1 didn't.

<4 Lid he tell you?

A ho, he did not.

<4 Well, wnen did you find out that he worked at

the post office?

A He hau it in the paper. 1 nad nothing to go for 
the last foux* weeks but reau the paper. You can't leave the

house on medication.



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THE COURT: How did you know he worked at the pos

office when you were there?

682

THE WITHEHo: It said so in the paper. Your Honor,,

Tiin COURT: wnen?

xiiE WIYE&do: when? I couldn't tell you the

exact day.

TiiH COURT* viu you know it when you were in the

house?

THE wxTRESE* ho, sir.

Tiiii vdURi; You uiun't know it in the hous~

THE WxYHEHH: Ho, sir, I didn't know it.

Tun wJeiii «... that he worked for the post off in

inn w xxhxijo; Ho, sir.

riiu COURT: x'hea wily uxu you say it was rough

geti-ing up ai four o'clock?

THE WiY'HEoHi It is rcugn getting up at four o'cl

THE COURT* You just testified that you said to h 

or that you oaia that *0 one of the other officers.

THE wxThxwu: 1 sale to him, the nan has to get 

up at rour o clock, here it xs two, it is rough getting up at 

four,

YHE couRT: Row did you know that?

THE WxfWnoa: He told me he had to get up at four

o'clock. He said, I might as well stay up now, it's four

2 4
o 'cIock, I nave to get up at four



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BY MR. NABRIT:

Q Now, you showed the pictures you had to the man 

who was in the beu?

A Yes, air.

Q *re you quite sure, are you quite positive that 

you also showee them to the lady?

A Yes, sir, I had theta in toy left hand as a matter

of fact, and the picture I had, the personal picture picture

of Lari Veney was too large to put in my pocket. It was a 

picture this big. (Indiesting.)

Q As she opened the uoor did she have a dog with hex)*

A Mo, sir.

Q A small one?

A Well, if she did it didn't bother me. I paid no

attention to it.

Q Did an officer go into the rear bedroom on the 

second floor?

A Now, counsel, you told me before you didn't want

me to testify to anything I didn't overhear. The only thing

I can say is that I aid see Officer Brown coiae from that hall 

and what I said, there's nothing here, let's go, I wa3 already 

turning down the steps and Lieutenant Schnabel and somebody 

else came from that hallway, too, so I'm going to have to 

assume they were in a room. Ik . 5

MR. NABRIT; further questions



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MR. SAUSE: No further questions.

(Witness excused.)

THU COURT; Recess until ten minutes after two.

(court recessed at IjIO o'clock P.M., and recon­

vened at 2:1b o'ulocx P.M*)

(A discussion was had at the bench off the record ,

Thereupon,

CLARENCE ROY was called to the stand and sworn 

as a witness and, naving been first uuiy 3worn, was examined 

and testified as follows:

THc. Cî iRHi State your name for the record, please 

THE WITNESS: Sergeant clarence Roy, Baltimore C11;

Police Department, homicide Squad.

THE CLERK: Clarence Hoy?

THB WITNESSi R-o-y.

MR. SAUSE: Your Honor, again, we would like to

ask the Court's indulgence, rather than having these officers 

sit here all day, we sent for some more officers at lunch time 

and they haven’t arrived. Sergeant Roy pertains to the Allen­

dale case and we would like to take him out of turn. We woulc 

also like to indicate at thi3 time that he participated in 

none of the other cases, in none of the other eight,

DIRECT EXAMINATION \

BY MR. SAUSE:

Q Sergeant, how long have you been a police officer?



685

\ A  Fourteen years.

Q And how long have you been a sergeant?

A Two and a half years.

(« how, directing your attention to December 2oth of 

last year, about four o'clock or so in the afternoon, die you 

have occasion to go to 2303 Allendale Street?

A Yes, sir, 1 did.

Q how, Sergeant, tell His Honor the reason that you 

went there, wnat you did after you went there, the conversatid 

you may have heardffrom tne testimony of these other witnesse 

Just tell us as fully but as concisely as you can?

THr. COURT* The other witnesses, you say from the 

testimony of the other witnesses. Allendale has had only one 

witness.

MR. SAU6L: That is right, sir. I waB trying to

direct him to give Your Honor a complete answer, along the Hr} 

of the other witnesses. \

THR wITNLSS: Hometime around four P.M. on Decembe

the 28th, 1904, 1 recelveu information from Lieutenant cadden 

and Lieutenant Glover that they had received certain inforraatj 

as to tne Veney brothers being present at the address of 2303 

Allendale Street. In company with other members of the squad 

at that time we proceeded to this area of Allendale and Gwynns 

Falls Parkway. Of course, X was in tne advance car with 

Lieutenant Cadden, Sergeant Hughes, Detective De Paula and

ns

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on



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686

Detective Bozak. We went into the area of 2303 Allendale and 

looked the property over, then we returned to the rest of the 

felloWs and tolu them Just what the area looked like and how 

the house could be —  entrance could be gained from the rear 

as to covering the back and the front of the property.

When the officers entered, which was several men

wearing the armored vests. Lieutenant Cadden there, after

proceeuing into this dwelling behind the men inthe armorea
I imagine

vests, they stayed into the property/aboat four, maybe six 

minutes, one of the men then proceeded from the first floor 

to the second floor which appeared to be an apartment separate 

from the first floor, and 1 think that was Detective De Paula, 

he hollered aown for a light, a hand light. I, of course, 

summoned Sergeant button who was standing close by the emer­

gency vehicle to bring a light. As Sergeant button went up 
on the porch ...

THE COURT: Where were you then?

Trid WITNESS: I was standing in the street in fron

of this location behina one of our parked automobiles.

After Sergeant Sutton went up on the porch with 

the light X then went into the doorway of this dwelling and 

Lieutenant Cadden was Chen talking to a young, coloreu female, 

the child appeared to be about ten, maybe eleven years old. 

And at this time the only part of the conversation I hearc was 

that her mother and father were working and they would be in



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687

sometime after five thirty. With this I feel as though the 

lieutenant then gave this child a card, one of hiB calling 

cards with his name imprinted on same. The rest of the men 

were called from the Interior of the first floor and we left 

the property.

BY MR. SAU3Bt ” ™ • ------ _

Q Now, Sergeant, ao you, of your own knowledge, know

whether any other Negro officers, police officers participated
\

in any of these searches in connection with these arrest 

warrants 2

A Yea, sir, Detective Oliver Walker. Of course, 

there were two,sometimes as many as three Negro members of the 

emergency unit that would accompany us on the particular turn 

up.

Q There are Negro police officers —  His Honor aBked
A

that the other day and we are trying to develop that there 

were other Negro polioe officers on the emergency units?

A Yes.

Q By the emergency units you mean C.?« 11 ...

A And 12.

Q ... and 12?

A Yes, sir.

Q Which were the emergency vehicles? \

A Yes, sir, 11 and 12 units. \

Q And as such they received special trainilrig in the



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688

handling of that special equipment that is contained in those 

vehicles?

A Yes,

ft t'ia you or anyone in your presence show any pictur 

to the occupants of the Allendale Street address?

A No, sir, not in my presence and I, myself, didn't,, 

MR* dAddd: Your witness,

CRObS RXAMINATIQN
m  MR. NABRIf;

Q Sergeant, can you aescribe for the Court what thin 

property looks lixe?

A From the interior or the exterior?

ft From the outside,

A It appeared to be a two story, clapboard dwelling 

with what appeared to be an attic. I don't know whether it 

was occupied but it appeared to be an attic up on the, what 

would be the third floor,

ft You didn't enter the house at all?

A I stood into the —  well, you could say that I was

inside, I stood inside the doorway proper that is leading into 
the .,,

ft First floor?

A ,,, first floor.

ft Now# when you are standing in front of this house

on the walk to the street, am I correct that there is a door



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689

that leads into the i'irst floor right on the front, is that 

correct?

\A xhat is true,

h Now, then in the same spot to the left around on 

tne slue of the porch ia there another aoor there?

A foe, there is,

tt ana did you Iook into that side door?
a No, sir, I diun’t,

Q Lad officers enter that siae aoor?

A Yes, sir, they ala,

(4 ho you know where that side aoor leads?

A I assume that it leu upstairs.

Q And those doors are some feet apart would you say?

a I could approximate the distance being about fif­

teen feet.

The approximate distance? 

A bure.

Q.

A

be about 

A

Q

A

Q

Now, aid officers go into both doors?

Yes, sir, they did.

Now, the young colorec child who you estimated to 

ten years old, you thought?

I would say about ten years old, yes.

bne was in the first floor door in the front?

yes, sir,

hla you see any other children in there? \



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690

A I think I heard voices of several children* X vioul

say more than one person, other than the child I was com;onte\v\
with, was also in the house and I feel as though it was the

\bedroom ̂ which was to the right of the eoor as you enter,

Q N Did other officers go into that first floor? Tell 

me what officers went into that house?

A Well, at the time, let's put it this way, I wasn't 

interested in who went into the door as long hb they were 

police officers. Now, Just who went in the uoor other than 

Lieutenant Cadden and men wearing armored vests, I coulon't 

tell you, \

Q But Lieutenant Cadden and the men wearing armored 

vests, they went into the first floor door?

A Yes, sir, \

Q How long did they stay inside?

A Well, as I say, they were in about six minutes at 

the most before I entered, I would say over all it was less 

than eight minutes,

Q And is it true that there were no adults in that 

first floor? \

A I didn't see any.

Q You didn't see any?

A NO, 0lr, X didn't,

Q Now, did you see or encounter an older child, a 

teenager seventeen or eighteen returning home while you were



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691

there at that address?

A No, sir, I didn't,

Q Or in fact two teenagers?

A\ I cildn ‘ t see any,

ThUi COURT* Is this 23*̂ 3 Allenuale?

MR, NABRIT1 Yes, Your honor. If I might explain, 

Mrs, Booth testified she lived in the third floor apartment 

and her sister's family lives in the second floor apartment 

and some other people lived ,,,

Iht. COURT: \There wasn't very much Information to 

the first floor as I remember,

MR, NABRITi Mrs. Booth stayed in her apartment

upstairs,

THE COURT: I was trying to relate this first

floor with anything I had heard and it didn't relate.

BY MR. NABRITi

Q wnat officers that you know of went into the side 

door that leaas upstairs?

A I do know Detective Oe Paula went into the side 

door, which I assume led to the second and third floors. Ther 

after I heard a call for a light. I then also assumed that it 

was De Paula, Sergeant Sutton was standing nearest tne emer­

gency vehicle that was parked in front of the location so I 

hollered for nira to oring a lignt. Alter he proceeded to go 

into the dwelling itself X then went to where Lieutenant Oadde



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692

wab standing*

Q When Lieutenant Cadden and hiB group came out or 
the first floor, dla they then go to the second ana third

floors?

A 1 was the first one out of the first floor. I

was standing, as I said, right into the doorway itself of the 

household proper, and I left ana then the men followed me out* 

Now, whether anyone went to the side door which would lead up­

stairs, I don’t know* I didn’t pay that much attention to it.

Q
>

And who was in charge of the group, was it

Lieutenant Cadden?

A Lieutenant Cadden as well as Lieutenant Clover.

Q Were both of them there?

A Yes, sir, they were the ranking officers from our

outfit.

Q Wao Lieutenant Glover in the house tliat you saw?

A I don't think that he did, I can't say whether he

did or didn’t. I don't think that he did.

Q Now, what time did you get to this house with the 

advance car? \

A Sometime after four f.M, The exact time I couldn'

tell you. I do know it was still daylight hours when we left

there. As I said, we were only there /> afcter of eight minute

Q Correct me if I'm wrong, I thought you said that

you first went with a survellance crew?



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A Yes.

Q Then you went to report to the main group and came
back again?

A \Yea.
first

How much time elapsed between the/survellance and
the actual entry?

• A X could approximate, say about twenty minutes.

Q About twenty minutes.

Bid your surveiiance team, the surveilance group

included Bozak, Hughes, Beteotive Be Paula and yourself?

A Yea,

Biu any of that group conduct any interviews in

the neighborhood or make any inquiries about this household?
A

Q

No, sir, we didn’t.

You all stayed in your automobile?
A

Q

Yes, sir, we did.

Ana do you recall which of the lieutenants, Cadden

or Glover, made the decision that you would search this house?

A Well, I received the information after Lieutenant 

adden had received it. Now, whether he received it himself 

or from someone else, x do not know but he was njy commanding
officer at that time ana X followed orders.

Q You did not decide to do it yourself, to make the
search?

A No, sir. No, he gave me enough reason to go along



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694

with it bo  ̂ therefore, I carries out who order «>

Q Did you receive any information concerning the 

Veney brothers ana this household from anyone else other than 

your fellow police officers?

h i, lyoeUi uian't, no, sir.

<* *nu you are assignea to homicide?
v

a Yea, sir, I am.

<4 in coiiauccing homicide investigations in the past 

in connection with other crimes or other arrests, have you 

ever hau occasion to have the emergency unit accompany you to 
a place?

h I don't think I have ever personally, no.

MR- NAIiRiJ.* ho further questions.

MR. BAULc.: No questions. Thank you. Sergeant.

fitness excused.)

MR. MURPHY* Your Honor, the Court expressed an 

interest in the emergency run sheets, c.P. 11 and C.P. 12, 
and we have them,

THB COURT* Do you want to come up here then and
talk it out.

(Discussion at the bench off the recorc.)

MR. BAUBL: Somewhat reluctantly we will continue

with Lieutenant Cadden out of turn.

Yhn COURT* Do you have any other witnesses coming
in today?



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MR. SAUSE: Two others.

\  MR. MURPHYi Sergeant McManus, who was th< Sujer-
\

visor of the emergency unit and also the taxi oab driver who\\was here the other day hut we didn't reach him and is being 

alerted now and should here. We are going a little faster 

than we thought we would, I think it presents a better plctur^ 

to take them in propel- order.

THE COURT: if you are going to finish within the

time you suggested I don't mind putting in this time reading 

plaintiff's briefs, I've got %o read them sometime and I mighf; 

as well sit here and read them. Maybe you ought to reau them, 

too,

MR, MURPHY: If we could dp that, that would be

much more to our liking,

THE COURT: All right.

(Recess.)

THE COURT: Are you ready to call a witness?

MR. MURPHY: Yes, Your Honor.

We will call Mr. Albert Gooddale,

T h e r e u p o n , ______ •------ -------- ---

ALBERT GOODDALE was called to the stand and sworn 

as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, was examined 

and testified as follows:

THE CLERK: State your name for the record?

THE WITNESS: Albert Gooddale.

i 4"1/  b



696

1 ! DIRECT EXAMINATION
•) BY MR. MURPHY*
:t

A
Q Mr* Gooauale, what is your a c c i r e s s ,  sir?

• A 4/39 Amberly Avenue.
f> Q How old are you?
(i A I am fifty six.
7 Q Aro you a licensed taxi cab driver in Baltimore
s City?
!) A Yes, sir.

10 Q How long have you been driving a taxi cab?
11 A Fifteen years.
12 Q Mr. Gooddale, I direct your attention to January

• 1965> around twelve noon, did you have occasion to pick up
14 two ladies in front of the Veterans Administration Building
15 in downtown Baltimore?
l(i A Yes, sir.
17 ^  What was that location?
IS A That was at St. Paul and Fayette Streets.
19 Q Now, would you look around this court room and see
20 if you see either of the ladies that you picked up that day?
21 A Yes, this lady on the end here.

• Q Wearing the red .,,
22 A Yes.
24 MR. MURPHY 1 What is your name, m s ‘am?
25 MRS, SNOWDEN* Mrs. Snowden,



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MR. MURPHYs What is that?

MRS. SNOWDKN: S-n-o-w-d-e-n.

BY MR. MURPHY:

Q Do you see any other, Mr. Goodaale?

A I’m not sure.

Q What happened, Mr. Gooddale, after you picked up 

the two ladies? would you relate what happened in your cab?

A Well, as a rule I don’t listen to conversations 

and X Just overheard an argument between the two ladies and 

one said to the other ...

Q before you tell me what one said, where were you 

taking these ladles, the address?

A The first address was 1900 block of Druid Hill 

Avenue.

Q What was the other address?

A 2000 block of North Monroe.

Q Now, when you cay, you identify one lady as speak­

ing to the other would you refer to them as the Druid Hill 

Avenue lady ...

A Yes.

Q, ... or the North Monroe Avenue lady?

A Yes,

Q Who said what to whom?

A It was some kind of an argument about money that

they came down to get, money-to try to get a pension increased

4Jc8



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or something to that effect, and one lady, the mother of the 

son, she was arguing with her and told her that she didn’t 

know how to take care of business or anything like that and 

they got to arguing ana the one, this lady, the Druid Hill 

Avenue lady bold her that she aidn’t have sense enough to get 

the Increase of what they were trying to get, the pension in­

creased. So the other lady told her, she said, I wouldn’t 

tell you that. She called her a fool, I think. Yes, she said; 

you’re a fool, you don't know how bo take care of business or 

something to that effect. And the other lacy told her, I 

wouldn't call you a fool. And she said, well, you’re like youi 

son, she said, he’s a fool, when he gets full of liquor he 

shoots a police, and that’s all I heard.

Q And were they whispering in the cab, Mr. Gooddale, 

the ladies?

A Pardon.

Q I cay, were they whispering?

A They wasn’t whispering. The other lady told her

to shut her mouth, she 3aid.

Q Now, you said the other lady told her to shut her 

mouth, who said that?

A The mother of the 3on.

Q And you were taking the mother of the son to the 

Monroe Street address, is that correct?

A That was on the way to the 1900 block of Druid HilL

i ? p



699

1 Avenue.

•) Q Which fare hid you let out first?

A  m is laay her on the end.

4 4 m e  .Druid hill Avenue fare?

f> ii m e  î ruiu niil Avenue,
(i * fnen you proceeaed to Monroe Street?
7 a l e a .

s Q how, after you had let out tne Monroe Street lady
!) what did you then do, 11’ anything?
10 A x atopped the first police cruiser that I saw and
11 told them about it.
12 V A n d  now long after you let the ...
12 A 1 waa tninking about the police that got shot on

14 the 2200 blocK of North Monroe Street and I thought that might

15 be the case of it. I didn’t know.

10 MR, NABRIT: Move to strike what the witness was
17 thinking about, Your Honor.
IS _______  THE COURT* Strike it out.
10 BY MR. MURPHY:
20 Q Mr. Gooddale, may I ask you, how long was it after
21 you left the Monroe Street fare out that you stopped a polloe
•_w cruiser?
25 A Within fifteen minutes.
24 Q Xs that the first police cruiser you saw?
25 A Yes, sir.

4* O



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officers?

What did you then do when you Btopped the cruiser 

I told them about it. Just what I did heri, 

iuu you mention the Veney brothers to the police

a KO| sir.

xou uiun't mention any specif ic case?

A ho, s x r .

Q how, alter you were talning to the police officers 

in the police cruiser .•.

A The first thing i thougnc of was this police that 

was shot in tut cap in the IciiOO block of North Monroe street, 

i aidn't nave the Venoy brothers even in my mind*

bust specific inoleant, you say a police officer 

was shot in tout area, what Knowledge uo you have of that 

incident?

A only wnat i reae in the paper,

W what was that?

m ‘fiUit a police was snot, 1 tniruc it was in his cap

iie was then knocKou uown in tne time he got shot in the cap.

Q ho you know where ho was ahot?

i tnink xt was tne dZlOO Clock of North Monroe otre 

About how far waa onat from ... 

iiu- todiVl: mlhat was chat, a£Q0 block oi what?

Tibi wi-uiobSi North Monroe street. That was ceve

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days before this incident.
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BY MR. MURPHYt

Q How many blocks away was that from the house or th^ 

Monroe Street fare?

A About two blocks, 1 think.

Q After stopping the police cruiser, what happened

after that? You told the police officers about this conversa­

tion that you heard in the cab, then what happened? Did you go 

with the police anywhere?

A I also told another police,

Q Tolu another what?

A Told another policeman.

Q You mean you stopped one cruiser and had a convers^ 

tion with them and then btopped another?

A YeB, air.

Q What did you tell the second group of police officers?

A The same story that I told them.

Q Wny did you do that, Mr. Qooddale, after stopping 

one police cruiser, why did you tell the same story twice?

A Well, I wanted to be sure that —  I guess I was 

a little over anxious to solve some of this crime that's going 

on.

Q Weil, did you subsequently go to the police depart­

ment with any police officers?

A pardon me, sir.

Q X say, did you subsequently go to the police head-
A ft



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702

quarters with any of the officers that you stopped that day?

A I went out to the Northwestern later in the day,

Q At your own instance or at the request of the polio 

A At tne request of the police.

Q Who uiu you talk to there?

A 1 uon't remember the officer1a name,

Q ho you remember what time it was?

A 1 uon‘t recall hie name,

Q ho you remen&er what time it was, Mr. Goodaale?

A It was just about quarter of three.

Q Anu did the police officers there question your 

further concerning, this incident?

A Nothing more than, they took down what I told them., 

the secretary diu,

Q, hla you sign a statement?

A Yes, sir.

Q Mr. Gooucale, aid you see either of the ladie3

that you picked up at the police station that same day?

A Yes, sir.

Q which of the ladies did you see, both of them or

one?

A I saw both of them,

U Lid you identify them for the police that day?

A Well, no, sir. X told the police they were out th« 

the ladies were out there. I told him that I saw them out in



703

1 hall.
‘> Q Did you apeak to them?
2 A Or in the corridor, rather.• 4 Q Die* you apeak to them at the station, hr. Good dale
f) A No.
(i Q Mr, Qowdoale, are you related to anybody in the
7 police department?
s A No, nobody, sir.
!) Q had you ever seen either of the ladies that you
10 picked up that aay before?
11 A No, sir.

i IA
12 Q Did you know either of them before?

• 12 A Wo, sir.

14 MR. MURPHY: Thank you.

15 Ntou may examine.

hi CROSS EXAMINATION

17 BY MR. NABRIT:

18 Q for, Gooduale, what time was it when you picked up
1!) the two ladies?

2 0 A I would say it was around about one o’clock.

21 Q Around about one o'clock?

• 22 A Yes, May be a little after, 1 don’t recall exactly
22 what tlioc it was, -N
24 Q And where did you drive first?
25 A Peruon. X



704

1 q Where did you drive first?
*> A To the 1900 block 01 Druid Hill,

Q \  Anti how long did it take you to get there?
• A Well, X didn't time mysoli.

f> Q Well, auoutv
(i A X1g say about twenty minutes, 1 guess.
7 Q And rrom there to the Monroe Street address, how
S long did it take?
!t A fifteen wore minutes, I would say. About fifteen

10
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minutes,
\

11 TifE COURT: HOw long?
12 THE wiTNRSS: About XITteen minutes,\

• THE COURT: Fifteen minutes to go from the 1900 block of Druid\
14 Hill Avenue to the 2000 block of Monroe?
15 THE WXTMKSS! Well, ten or fifteen.

1(5 BY MR, NABRIT*
17 Q Do you remember how much the fare was?
18 A $1.35# I believe, $1 ,3 0.
10 Q I can't hear you. \
20 A I think it was $1.30 or $1.35. I don’t remember.
21 s, Did you get a tip?

• A Yes, air.
28 Q How much?
24 A X don’t recall.
25 Q Where did you encounter the first police cruiser,



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where did you see the first police cruiser?
\

A At North Avenue and Longwood, I believe it was,

Q And how many officers were in the car?

A \ One officer, and one officer was inside the store 

and he came back while I waa there,

Q Which one of them did you talk to?

A I don’t even know their names,

Q Did you tell what you heard to one or both of them?

A Juss the one, I had finished when the other officsr

had returned,

Q Now, can you remember, were you excited or —  when 

you were talking to them?

A No, not excited,

Q Can you remember what you told the police?

A Not woi'd for word. I Just told them about picking

up the two ladies and the conversation and where I took them 

to,

Q Tell me all you can remember about what you told 

the police?

A I just told them that I might have some help, a 

load for some of the crime or of a policeman getting shot in 

the 2200 block of Monroe Street.

Q And what else did you tell them?

A That was all,

Q Did you tell him about the conversation i,n the cab?



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706

Q
\

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Yc b .

What did you tell him about the conversation? 

Well, X told him the two ladles were arguing and

they seemed to be In a hot argument and one called tiu other 

a fool, that she didn't know how to take care of business or 

she couldn't have got any increase if it hadn't been for her 

if she hadn't have went with her, and the other one told her, 

she Bald, you shouldn't call me a fool, I wouldn't call you 

that. So she said, also, that son of yours is a fool 

Q Which one said that?

A The lady, Mrs,, on the end.

Q The one you took to Druid Hill?

A Pardon me. \

Q

A

Q

A

a police.

The one you took to Druid Hill?

Yes, air.

What did she say?

She said, you son gets full of liquor and he shooti

Q Now, were you paying attention to your driving 

when you were driving along? \

A Oh, yes,

Q Did you turn your head around and look in the back

seat?

A No, sir.

Q How could you tell which one said what?



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707
\

A 1 know It was this lady that said it.

Well, you know now that you were mistaken?

THE COURT: What does that question mean, do you

know now that you were mistaken, I don’t understand that.

MR. NABRIT: In what you heard.

THE COURT: What is that?

MR. NABRIT: In what he heard.

MR. MURPHY: I object to It.

THE COURT: 1 don’t understand It. I wouldn't kno

how to answer it if I were a witness. You are asking If he 

knows now that he was mistaken in what he heard. If that is 

the question, g o  you know now that you were mistaken in what 

you heard?

THE WITNESS: No, I am not mistaken.

BY MR. NABRIT:

Q About what time was it you first saw the first 

police cruiser?

A Weil, I didn't have a watch, I don't recall Just 

what time it was. It was around —  it was after one o'clock.

I would say it was 1:45 whenever I stopped the first police.

Q How much later was it you saw the second police 

cruiser.
\

A Well, the second police, it was —  i\was at Balti­

more and Frankllntown. \

Q How much later was that after you talked to the



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708

I would say about fifteen minute& „

About what time would that make it?

About two o'clock.

About two o'clock, and what ala you tell that
\

police officer? \
I told him the same thing jl tola the other police,

\
A

Q And in exactly the came words?

A Maybe not the very same words but I tola him what
'• \

I heard, what I recallea hearing.

Q Did you tell him that you had already told it to 

another policeman? V

A Pardon.

Q Did you tell the second policeman that you had

already seen another policeman fifteen minutes before?

A No.

And reported the same conversation?

No, I didn't tell him.

You didn't tell the seconu poiicec: ?

No. r

Why not?

MR• MURPHY: Your Honor ,«.

THE COURTs You openeu the door, he can go through

Q

A

Q
A

Q

it.

THK WITNESS: I don't know why I didn't, 1 didn't



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709

tell him. I'm not sure. I'm sure I didn't tell him.\ fV
BY MR, NABRITt

Q Do you know who-was the second police cruiser one
V

officer or two?

A Two,

Q Did you tell it to Doth of them or one?

A Yes.

Q Both of them?

A Both of them.

Q What did they do after you told them this?

A They thanked me and X got in the cab and drove
\away.

Q have you ever been arrested, sir, or been in 

trouble with the lav;?

A No, sir.

MR, MURPHf* I object.

THE COURT* Wait a minute. If he's been convicted

"4

of an infamous crime it would affect his credibility. I 

suppose that is the purpose you are asking it.

All right, objection overruled* Have you ever bee 

convicted of a crime other than a traffic offense or something 

like that, have you ever been convicted of a crime?

THE WITNESS: No crime, no, sir.

BY MR. NABRITj

Q Have you ever been hospitalized for any mental ill;



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A No, sir.

Q How good is your hearing? Have you ever had it 

by a doctor?

A \ Hearing is ali right.

When lt» the last time you had it tested?

Every time I have my license renewed, chauffer’s
\
\
\

Did you tell any newspapers about this?

Ho. \

THE COURT: Has the testimony of Mrs. Shepherd
been written up?

MR. WURJPKYi \Not written up that X know of.

THE COURT; 1 was looking at my notes of her testi­

mony and I think we nac better have just one or two excerpt3 «

It doesn’t have to be done right now. I am going to ask Mr. 

Owens to write up a couple bits of the testimony to be sure 

that my notes are correct.

MR. NABRITt Coula I have a moment, Your Honor?

THE COURT* Any more questions?

MR. NABRIT; Yes, sir, one or two.

THE COURT* All right, \

ME. NABRIT* May I proceed? \

THE COURT* Yes.

BY MR. NABRIT;

Q Am I correct in understanding you that\ll you knew



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711

about this alleged crime that occurred on Monroe Street is 

what you read in the newspapers, is that right?

A That's right.

\Q You had no personal knowledge about any crime, 

about what happened?

A That's right.

Q And all —  so that the only knowledge or informa­

tion you had at all was what you thought you heard in the 

taxi cab, is that correct?

A That is what X did hear.

0 That iB the only thing you knew about it?
\

A YeB, air,

Q Is that correct?\ *•
A That's right.

Q Had you seen the reward offers in the newspapers

for information?

THE COURT* For what?

MR. NAHRIT* Reward offers for information leading 

to the apprehension, for information leading to ...

THE COURT: Apprehension of what? Is there any

reward? Your question assumes that there was a reward offered 

for Oreenmount or Monroe Street. There wasn't any reward 

offer I've heard of about Monroe Street. If you offer to 

prove there was, of course, you may ask the question.

THE WITNESS: The Veney brothers wasn't even men-



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f
Cloned.\
BY MR. NABRIT;

Q Wasn’t even mentionea where, sir? You said the 

Veney brothers weren't mentioned, where?

A In the cab at all.

Thji COURT: What I am asking you, is there a

reward for the \rrest of the Veney brothers?

MR, nX.BRIT: May it please the Court, the initial

news accounts of this incident on Monroe Street said that the 

Veney brothers were suspected in that crime as well.

MR. MURPHYl I object to his testifying. Every­

body is a suspect when somebody shoots a police officer and 

I object to that strenuously, Your Honor.

MR. KABRIT: I will offer the clippings.
ATHE COURT: It is not evidence and it can be

stricken as evidence, but if you have any evidence.

MR. NAERIT: I will be sworn and testify,

THE COURT: The question I have is, what the rewar

was for and this is the first time I have heard of the Monroe 

Street shooting, the first time I have heard anything in an 

attempt to connect it with the Veney brothers, the first time 

I have heard that thtre v.’as any reward that night have anythin

to do with Monroe Street and before this question is askea I
\

have got to know what it is clearly that you are asking.

MR. NABRIT: Your Honor, I don’t know what further



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713

explanation I can make.

THE COURT* Well, ask him. Maybe he will under­

stand better than I do if you are asking the questions but
\

the question was very uncertain to me and I don’t know what it 

would mean to him the way you put it; but ask him any question 

you think is proper and the conversation we have had may 

clarify it for him.
V

Go ahead.

BY MR. NABRIT:

Q Were you aware that the newspapers had offered —
V

a newspaper had offered a reward for Information leading to

the capture of the Veney brothers?
\

A Yes, sir.

Q And you knew that before?

A I knew that. That was the newspapers that offered

the reward, though, wasn't it?

Q Yes. \

Do you read the News American?

A

Q

A

Q
A

Yes, both papers.

Both papers?

Yes, sir.

Regularly?

Yes, sir, \

MR, NABRIT* Your Honor, I still haven’t understoo< 

Your Honor’s ruling on the evidence matter this morning, T*hetl



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714

>r not if I ask to see a copy of the statement this witness 

gave to the police, which X understand him to say was taken 

down by a secretary, whether by asking to see that I am thereto 

bound ••• \V
THE COURT: No, you are not because that is part

of what you wqre entitled to get a summary of, at any rate, 

from the Junior .bar, that is the detail. Anything that deals 

with the information the police have leading to the raise that 

you have put on, and certainly leading to the information the 

police had with respect to this.

Do you have anything, any written report from him7

MR, MURPHY ou mean from this witness, Your

Honor? \
THE COURT: Yes.

avMR. MURPHY: We have a statement, yes, sir.

THE COURT: Is there any reason tfwt shouldn't be

offered?

MR. MURPHY: Well, 1*11 be delighted to offer that

Your Honor, but X think it will get in Reaper into the rest 

of the police report.

MR. NABRITt I wouldn’t ask it to be offered,

I ask for an opportunity to examine it. \

THE COURT: The question is, my feeling about it

is this, that I wanted counsel for the plaintiffs to have lnfob 

mation as to what the police had offered to him or made 3vail-



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715

able to him pursuant to the subpoena the information the polio 

had with respect to the patricular eight items they have here

as to what information the police had before they authorised
\

their searches.
\
W  also saiu they ooulu have it generally, Now, 

these are the ones that are being pursued and if this man made 

a report to the p o l i c e  in *,he oruinary course of business and 

not a report which was obtained as part of your work product 

in preparation lor this case, X think it should be offered in 

evidence, Anu you can show it to the plaintiff and he can use 

it on cross examination#

Then if he’s opened the door and whether it makes 

it automatically admissible because he asKca for it, X think 

it might be admissible as a report raaue in the ordinary course 

of business. This is oruinary course of police business it 

seems to me rather tnan any preparation. I don't know whether 

the statement was maau before the ,,,

MR. WABRIT: He testified it was.

THK COURT: It was Just after they entered the

house.

Mh» WAHRITi He testified that it was when he was 

later —  well, let*'s clear it up now.

BY MR. NABRIT:

<4 L>iu you sign a statement down at the police statio 

A That’s right.



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716

Q Where was this?

A At the Northwestern.

Q\ About what time was that?

A \ That vjas about three o'clock, maybe a little after

<4 This was after ...
\
THE COURT* It was after the entry and while the 

two women were at the police station, is that right?

THE WI^NEBB* That's right.

THE COURT* He said he saw them in the station whe 
he was there,

MR. NABRIT* I'd like to see it.

THE COURT* If this contains any' leaas, I think 

that part should be blocked out, anything that doesn't deal 

with this particular matter ought to be blocked out in some 

way but counsel may see it with that understanding.

(A document was presented to Mr. Nabrit.)

KR. NABRIT* No further questions,

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MURPHYs

Q Mr. Gooduale, I show you a copy of the statement 

purportedly signed by you and ask you if you can identify that 

A Yes, sir.

MR, MURPHY: Your Honor, I would like to introduce

it as a Defenuant's Exhibit, the statement of Albert O o o d d a l e .

THE CLERK* Defendant'3 Exhibit No. 3 marked in



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717

\videncc,
V

\ (The statement or Albert
Oooddale was marked in evidenc 
as &6ienuant's Exhibit No., 3.)

\  MR, huujtTa j No i urtati questions, 

rhank you very ruaca, Mr* Gooduale, 

lid- tOORTi wait a minute. Now that it is in ^ou 

may want to eroita examine,

hay 1 take a quick look at it, then you can have i

ail right.

\RECRQSE EXAMINATION

BY MR, NABRXT: \

Q Hr, Goocduid, was this statement typed up while
1 \

you were there in the police station?
V

A xes, sir, \

Q Ana it nas a time on it, was that time right then, 

ao you know?

I uon’t «...it

k,

A

Bpeak louder so everybody can hear you,

X oian’C have a watch ana I aon’t know exactly.

I dlun’t see the time. It was around about tnat time,
\

Q Tell me one more time what you recall t.iis lady 

from Druid Hill Avenue said to the otheV one about the son 

being a fool and what followed that?

A then he was drunk, when he a carted drinking liquor

Q Now, tell to me as best you can remember what you



718

1 heard her say?
•) MR. MURPHY: Your Honor, I object, that is very
:( repetitious, This is about the fourth time around.
4 MR. NABRIT: I want to see what the wintess's
f) present recollection is.
(> MR. MURPHY: You asked him that five minutes ago.
7 THE COURT: I will overrule the objection. So far
s it doesn’t strengthen his testimony, Hr, Murphy. But I think
<) he is entitled to try once more.

10 THE WITNESS: What'* the question.
11 THE COURT: What you heard the woman say, the one
12 back there in the second row, what you heard her say about
12 the other woman’s son.

14 THE WITNESS: She said he was a fool when he drink\ s
15 liquor, that he shot a police.
1« MR. NABRIT: Your witness,
17 MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Gooddale.

\
I S THE COURT: You may be excused, \

\
11) (witness excused.) \
2 0 Thereupon,
21 JAMES J. CADUEN, was called to the stand as a wit-
22 ness and, having been first duly sworn, was examined and test!
22 fied as follows:
24 THE CLERK: State your name for the record?
25 THE WITNESS: James J, Cadden, C-a-d-d~e~n, Lieute 1-

425



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ant, Homicide Squad, Baltimore City Police Department,

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. SAUSL;

Q Lxeutenant, how long have you been a member of the 

police force?

A Sixteen years this forthcoming April, sir,

<4 ana how long have you been a lieutenant?

A A little over a year, sir.

719

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Now, Lieutenant ...

THE COURT: Just a moment. 1 think you had better

have some ground rules, I gather the Lieutenant will be on

longer than the rest of the oay, that you hadn't intended to
\\put him on tooay,\

\
MR, SiiUoLj That is right, sir,\
THE COURT; The usual rule that once you put a

\
witness on you can't talk to him while he is on the stand, oer«

\
tainly not talk to m m  wnile he,is unuer croBs examination.

It seem3 to me that the fair —  I suggest this, that you ask

him about sucn matters that you are willing to ask him about
\

without talking about them afterwards ana .that you not talk to 

him about any matters that he testified to today; but if you 

want to go over any matters tnat ne hasn't covered today, that 

the rule won't aply to conversations about other raatters to­

night since he obviously is one of the men who has co be inter 

viewed about developing many of these matters.



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MR. SAUSKi We have to discuss with him among

other things, Your Honor, the getting of witnesses and so fort 

THE COURT t That la all right, you may talk to hin

but you may not talk to him About anything you examine him 

about today and when you want to come to a break on that, let 

me know. We will cover as much as we can,

MR. SAUSKt Thank you.

BY MR. SAUS!':

Q Lieutenant, you are familiar with the warrants of 

arre3t which were issued for two persons in connection with 

certain incidents arising on Oreenmount Avenue, I think it wai 

the 2000 block, on Christmas Eve of last year, is that correct

A 7. am, rir. I swore out the warrants.

0 And Lieutenant, you are a member of the homicide

squad, you indicated?

A That is correct.

Q And as such this investigation came under your 

supervision, in that correct?

A Thst i* right.

Q Now, ther^ is a captain of the homicide squad who 

is over you, is that correct?

A That is right, sir.

Q And th>-n, of course, an inspector who 13 generally

the supervising authority over him?

A night.



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Now, how many lieutenants are there in the horalcic
squad?

A Vivo, sir,\V \
Q You ano?

A Lieutenant Glover anc myself,

Q Lciutennnt Glover testified the other clay that yoii 

and he doth participated in the investigations surrounding the 

two warrants ?

A ‘inat xs correct, sir*

Q Now, would you tell His Honor the- manner of oper­

ation, the method of operation and without getting into any 

specific cases, unless you deem it necessary by way of illustrs 

tion at this time, how you and Lieutenant Glover proceeded witi 

this investigation?

A Yes, sir.

Well, an Christmas five evening about 9; 45 or ten 

o'clock I responded to the scene on Greenmount Avenue and from 

there to the Saint Joseph's Hospital, Prom Saint Joseph's 

Hospital I went to the Northern District and commenced the 

investigation. \

THE COURT: I think this one factor isn't quite

clear, this was a robbery of a liquor 3torc? \

MR* SAUSE: Yes, Your Honor*

THE COURT; And the lieutenant who wa3 shot, shot
\

during the robbery or close to the place of the perpetrators
\\



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722

or\ the incident?

\ MR. SAUSE: If Your Honor please, I thought t.iat

we had stipulated for the purposes of this case that one para 

graph of the answer recitea those facts.

THE COURT: All right, that is fine. I just wasn

quite sure. \

MR. HAUSE: And I think that is paragraph 10-A on

page 4 of the answer. Is that the allegation there?

THE COURT: It just says during the course of it,

that is all.

MR, HAUHE: By one or more of the perpetrators of

said armed roobery.

THE COURT: All right,

BY MR. SAUHxi:

Q And there was a police lieutenant who was shot, 

going back to His Honor's question?

A Yes, that is correct.

Q And was he a uniformed officer?

A He was, sir.

Q Now, proceed. You went to St. Joseph's Hospital, 

then what happened?

A inen, of course, I went to the Northern District t< 

continue the Investigation.
\

At the Northern District I learned that a suspect
\\\was in custody.



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THE COURT: The Northern you Bay?

\ THE WITNESS: Wort hem, yes, Fir.
\ \

BY MR. SAUSE*

q is urounmount in the Nor t no it* district?\ -
a ica, i»i,r. it woo soiaewnau unusual tncre, thu cria(te 

was ooramitteu in tnu Northern district but a Northeastern 

bistriot lieutenant was snot.

ijib dOUnr: note too line run aovrn the tnidaie of

Oreenmount?

I'tiu UXiuNiXiO; .Yes, sir.

THE COURT: But lit was in the Northern district?

iiU> wii'unoB: That, is correct. lie responses to

the alarm. \

BY MR • os dox. j \

Vi ail right, wouio you proceed?
v\A ox course, x eommenoeu interrogation ox‘ the suspect

■

xn question ana, ox course, we iearneu nothing at that point
Y .

While x was at the Nortncrn instructing officers
V

pursuing whia investigation lieutenant GiovA$- cailec from nome 

That was aro-nU eleven, eleven Cwxrty, He asked if X needed 

any help ano ne would summon some additional men\anu, of cour^ej

i felt couxu use aii tne help available. And he^,arrived
V

snortly tnux'eaiter, within Appro ly .dirty oi- irety minuses.

Ox ooux ue, otnar officers wno arrived were the detoctlyVa 

robbery uquau anu iiomxcide detectives to continue this invest!25



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Then Lieutenant Glover and I, Sergeant Hughes and 

Detective Conroy continued our interrogation of the suspect ii 

custody. Through this interrogation we learned the identity 

of his accomplices in tnia matter. Of course, certain other

information was obtained and put on paper.
\

The along about three A.M. Lieutenant Glover took 

a detail of men with him. As I recall it was Detective Bozak; 

Detective De faula, some other officers I don't recall offhanc 

He suggested to me that he go over into Northeast Baltimore 

around the vicinity of Kirk Avenue, the residence of the Venej 

who this suspect had named as his accomplices, and search for 

them at their sisters' and relatives' homes.

lie had been gone about an hour, I believe, when a 

Northern District officer came into the interrogation room

where I was typing up with Detective Conroy crime lab sheets
\

of evidence and so forth when I was informed that a policeman 

had been shot. This was about four thirty, I imagine. \

Q Now, when you say -- just stop there for a moment 

when you say searching homes, were they searching for evidence 

or persons or for what?

A Bor persons and evidence, sir,

Q all right, go ahead.

A Along about four thirty ... 

THE COURT: When was this?

138



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MR. SAUSE: Thl3 was early Christmas morning.

THE WITNESS: I'm giving you a chronological .

THE COURT: You say searching Tor evidence?

MR. SAUE&: Searcning Tor suspects ana evidence,

THE WITNESS: There was an amount oT money taken

in the robbery ana, oT uoux'Be, weapons were utilized, natural 

BY MR. SAUSE:

Q Well, wnat was the primary purpose oT the search? 

A Tor the suspects.

Q This was prior to the time that any police ofTicex 

had been shot and killed?

A That is correct, sir.

THE COURT: Weil, oT course, among the things that

they might be looking Tor were the fruits oT the robbery?

THE WITNESS: That is x*ight, that is what I testi-

Tied.

THE COURT: That includes the Truits and the weapo

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. I think it was two thouse

BY MR. SAUSE:

Q You mentioned a moment ago the money?

A Yes, sir, the money and the weapons.

Q Bid this involve a sizeable amount oT money?

A Yes, sir, over two thousand aB I recall, sir.

Now, you indicated that-you had Just started~~to~£ 

that you heard something over the police radio while you were



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726

typing up these reports?

A No, sir, X -was in the Interrogation room and sever 

officers came into the interrogation room of the Northern 

District ana aovisou detective Conroy and I that a policeman 

had Just been shot In the Northeastern District and I recall 

he stated Kennedy Avenue. Do we were somewhat shocked with 

this information and being aware, of course, that Lieutenant

Clover was over in that area with this turn up party,

We immediately proceeaeu over there and enroute, 

of course, we heard, the police dispatcher directing cars to 

Clifton Park, that a police officer had been shot and so forth 

and we arrived at the &jQQ block of Kennedy Avenue. I met 

Lieutenant Eaton there of the Northeastern District and he 

realted ccrtarn information to me tnat Sergeant Jack Cooper 

liua been shot, that Cooper had been with Lieutenant alover and 

they had been turning up homes\and they had Just left the turn 

up route. V

Well, of course, that day, the remainder of the 

morning we searched the City College'grounds, the back yards 

ana calls were coming over the radio that prowlers were in the 

various yards, Carswell Street, Montpelier Street, all the 

nearby streets.

So latex1 on in the morning, it wad negative, of

course, we went to the various Lomas, relatives\of the wanted

subjects. Then we returned to the Northeastern District, I'd
\

\



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727

say about seven A.M., that was Christmas morning.

At the Northeastern Listriot was Commissioner 

Schmidt, as X recall, with Captain Mayer and Inspector German 

was there, we briefed him as -a trio events, what transpired 

was negative, our search fox* the Veneys and weapons or evidenc 

and, or codj.se, we had several girls in there that were friendV
of the VeneyXanu at that point we organized. The Conmissione 

thought that we should organize a special group because of the 

characters we werh dealing with,

*4 Weil, nOw would you elaborate on that, first of a2
\

a special group, indicate what the special group was to be?

THL COURT* \Weii, is that any different from what 

the other lieutenant said*N I don't think there is any need tc 

repeat that,
\

MR. CaUuhx All right.

Tifli COURT* And there is an admission or stipulatl 

with respect to the Gangers and the nature of the crime andX
character and so forth.

BY MR. SAUShj

Q Well, you heard Lieutenant Glover's testimony?

A I did, sir.

0 And with regard to the special group, do you wish 

to add anything to what he said?

A The commissioner emphasized safety tb the public 

as well as the officers; ho emphasized courtesy arid tact would

\



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728

e m p l o y e d ,  employed when we conducted or pursued any informatl 

as to hom&js and so forth.

Q Well, was the purpose of this special group also 

to coordinate the efforts of the ...

A Ye$, sir, to operate out of the Northeastern

District

Q
A

Q

Out of the Northeastern District?

That’s right.

Ordinarily where would you operate from, the 

lieutenants operate from?

A Out of the homicide office,

Q Which is at cdjitral?
\

A Central Police Station, yes, sir.

Q At Fayette Street?

A Yes, sir,

Q Now, after this unit was set up describe to His' \
Honor in general, if possible, the manner in which this specii 

group proceeded?

A Well, we processed all information acquired throuj

informers, relatives, friends of the Veneyp. Of course, we 

were instructed to take emergency units with us at all times. 

As a matter of fact the emergency units Mere quartered at the 

Northeastern District to assist us in the forthcoming turnups,,

Q Wnat was the purpose of the emergency units, if y< 

know, being ordered to the Northeastern District? \



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A They contained the necessary equipment during the 

event we encountered trouble and in the event that we encounte 

the wanted suspects, the Veneys, and, of course, if they barri 

ceded themselves in some place and so forth,

Q What sort of equipment does this unit carry?

THE COURT* Well, that is stipulated, isn’t it?

MR. SAUSE* All right.

BY MR. SAUSE*________  __._______—

Q Lieutenant, these special units, these emergency 

units, to your knowledge and experience in the police depart­

ment have these units ever been utilized in connection with th 

service of warrants in any case?

A Well, sir, to my knowledge in the recent slaying 

of an A&P manager at Hampden they were used on several occasio 

to turn up the wanted suspects in that particular investlgatio

THE COURT* That was the man who was shot and kill 

when he was attempting to deposit ...

THE WITNESS* November, 36th Street, yes, sir.

THE COURT* When was that?

THE WITNESS: That was in November, Your Honor,
I think, sir.

THE COURT* He was making a deposit and three or f< 
men shot him?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. He was accosted by two

729

4 4 0
assailants and shot during a robbery.



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THE COURT* I remember the newspaper story because 

it made very considerable public discussion,

BY MR, SAUSEt

Q Were the circumstances of the clanger considered 

to be roughly similar in both of these cases?

A They were considerably more in the latter case, ox 

this particular case, ThiB was an unusual situation, I, myso 

in the time I have been with the department —  I have only 

been here sixteen years, but never do I recall where two polic 

men were shot within a matter of six hours by the same assail­

ant, I think these circumstances are extraordinary themselves 

Of course, you are dealing with two men who shot 

two armed officers and then you have a problem to the comnaunit

Q Well, in short, did you feel despite any prior 

practices thet any particular precaution waB needed in this 

case?

A Oh, yes, sir, circumstances warranted them,

Q And you felt the safety of your men requirec them?

A Very definitely, sir,

Q All right. Now, proceed. You have indicated that 

the emergency units were assigned to the Northeastern, you beg 

your investigation. Could you describe your usual modus opera 

in this particular case?

A Well, usually most of the calls were directed —  

of course, for the first several days we inspected homes, know



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associates, relatives, former associates, cousins and so forth 

of the wanted suspects, and they were long days. We had appro 

imately forty five to fifty men and I guess each day was fourt 

to sixteen hours a day for the 2 5th, 26th, 2 7th ana 28th, and 

finally ...

THE COURT: What was that call you said? I just

didn't understand what you said —  off the record.

(A discussion off the record.)

THE WITNESS: Of course, I didn't particularly go

out on a lot of turn ups the first couple days, I was inter­

viewing witnesses, typing. We had scores of people in there 

from the Greenmount Avenue area who were friendly with the 

Veneys, who knew the Veneys and so forth. We consumed long 

hours then. Of course, I guess around the 28th, 29th, we 

started getting these phone calls, some from the newspapers, 

some from anonymous sources, some from officers on the streeti 

Then, of course, we would subdivide our unitB, I would take a 

group of men, Lieutenant Glover would take a group of men. He 

would take the calls in East Baltimore, I would take the colls 
in West Baltimore,

BY MR. 3AUSEt

Q Was there anything unusual, Lieutenant, about cheok 

ing the homes of relatives and known friends and places that th 

persons named in the warrants frequented, was there anything 

unusual about your investigating those places in an attempt to

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serve the warrants?

A No, sir, nothing unusual, not that I encountered,

Q Well, I mean, was there anything unusual about yo 

doing that or do you do that in every case?

A That is the natural procedure, sir* It is daily 
routine in law enforcement,

Q Now, several times you used the word turn up, 

would you describe for His Honor what you understand the word 
turn up means?

A It can be an inquiry or it can be a search,

Q In other words the words turn up do not necessaril;
involve a search?

A

Q

A

Oh, no, sir.

But It has to do with looking for suspects?

'ies, sir, that is the general term that is UBed
by the police department,

Q Now, you have indicated that around the 28th or 

l^th you started receiving these various telephone calls. Did 

you receive any phone callB, to your knowledge, any informa- 

tion from persons, known informers or that type of person?

A Oh, yes, sir.

Q And you have indicated that you received Borne anon,* 
mouse information, is that correct? i^o‘I ‘.T.l/

A Yes, sir,

Q Information from officers on the beat?



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733

A 0h# ye©, sir, quite a few*

Q And are you familiar with the testimony of the las 

witness, Mr* Goodaale, did you receive information from those 

sources?

A Well, yes. I dlan't receive information from Mr. 

Gooddale but similar sources.

Q Similar sources?

A Yes, sir,

Q Now, Lieutenant, in as much as the criminal cases

themselves are untried we would like you to be unspecific as 

to the results but you have also indicated that you had certal 

other persons connected with the suspects in custody, is that 

correct?

A Oh, ye3, air,

Q And did you in addition receive information from
them? Just yea or no,

A Yea, sir, we did. We had two additional suspects 
that are presently in custody,

Q And were any of the turn ups that you made at any

time based upon the information that you received from these 

people in custody?

A Yes, sir, I would like to say this, that a good 

deal of the turn ups were concerned with these other two suspec 

THK COURTS Did you say a good deal of these, you 

mean some of these ,,,, 144



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THE WITNESS* Well, we were seeking two additional sus­

pects besides these youths mentioned in this particular inci­

dent, the Veney brothers,

BY MR, 3AUSK;

734

Q In audition to the Veney brothers you were lookinf 

for certain others?

A Yea, 3ir, the 20th and 27th we were seeking the
4 4 rrtwo accomplices other than the Veneys, *

THE COURT* At least one was arrested at or near

the scene?

THE WITNESS; At the scene, sir,

THE COURT: At the scene, and it was the result of

your interview withNhim that you started after some other peop

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
V

THB COURT* Ann as a result of 3ome of your turn 

ups you succeeded in arresting two additional Buspects, They 

were arrestee when?

THE WITNESS* Gee, I don’t know the exact date, si 

THE COURT* Within two or three days or longer?

THE WITNESS; Yes, sir. One suspect wa3 arrested 

during one of these turn ups, I think. I don’t know the arres 

Taylor, " don’t know the particular date of the arrest of 

Taylor.

BY MR, SAUSE; \
Q Now, this information you furnished Mr. Murphy and



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735

me on all of these turn ups, did aorae of those turn ups Involve 

an attempt or attempts to locate these other suspects?

A Yes, sir.

Q And in this event you received information from 

anyone that you had in cuBtoay with regard to the suspects 

themselves, the primary ones?

A Yes, sir\ We were advised by two of the suspects 

who are presently in custody to watch ourselves, that the Veney 

boys weren*t going to be taken alive, they were armed with shot 

guns and pistols and these other two defendants told us to 

watch ouraelves. They stressed that on several occasions dur­

ing their interrogation, \

Q Now, in addition to thattype of information did 

these people in custody give you any locations where the Veney 

brothers might be?

A Could be possibly located, yes, sir,

Q And you, as a general rule, consider that informa­
tion reliable? \

A Very definitely, sir, \

MR. NABRITs Objection, Your Honor, general ruleB
about ,,,

Tit COURT* I think there are general rules, one a 

general rule and one in this case, that each may have some

bearing. What i3 probable cause depends upon the nature of the\\
information and the nature of the people who furnished it and



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the Question of whether other people who have been arrested 

and charged are regarded as people whose information may const 

tute probable cause is something that seems to me may be the 

subject of expert testimony. If it isn’t the Court certainly
V

has heard enough criminal cases ana habeas corpus eases and

know* how often it is sound and how often it do<-u leae to othe\\
people. If you want to leave it to the jury, then I don’t

\think you would be any better off than if you let him answer 1

MR. MURPHxi Your Honor may recall on that point ,

MR. HABFiIT: May I complete my objection? I am

sorry to interrupt,Mr. Murphy’.

My' only point was that the reliability of lndlvldi 

witness’ statements is something that is pretty difficult to 

describe in general.

THL COURT: I have been saying for sometime that

is one of the difficulties of wording the injunction in a case 

Of this sort, it has to depend upon a great many factors.

MR. MURPHY: Your Honor, X would like to point out

on this point the Fourth Circuit gives considerable credence . 

to accomplices —  the iraplleation of —  you recall Boler vs- 

Warden, and vhat iB all we nave. \

Tiid COURT: L was thinking of Boler. and my oplnior
V

anu the Fourt ^xrouit opxnxon but we are drying to get the typ 

of information, type of people they got information from and 

witnesses gave different types. Now, whether I will sustain



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the objection If it is made to whether this witness is conaide: 

the tyoe that informers are generally sound, if you base it on

the individual man from your conversation with him but you

can't Just Generally that all informers are sound or that the\
. \  x

accomplice is kpund or all accomplices are sound. We have got 

to Judge it on the circumstances with the particular case.

All the Court is taking notice of is that they 

frequently are, and frequently they are not,

BY MR. SAUSE:

Q In this case, Lieutenant, you have indicated that 

you received information from persons in custody with regards 

to the whereabouts of these two men who were named in the 

warrants. In a number of searches which you reported to Mr, 

Murphy and I, and which we in turn reported to the Court, a 

number of those searches involve turn ups made upon that infor­

mation? \

A I'd say some, sir. I would have to look at the 

particular sheets to distinguish Just which ones,

Q In every case of importance you have noted the 

exact source of the information or in somo ssases when you have 

simply indicated, on information received? \

THE COURT: Now, I don't understand that sentence.

You are dealing with what roports. There are vaary reports whicl\
simply show no source of information,

MR. SAUSE: All right, I will withdraw th* question,

737



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THE COURT: If you are talking about the ones that

hu sent people out on as a result of his interviews, that a s  a 

substantial group, I don't know how many there are, but obvll 

iy that Is a different situation from some of the others we 

have spoken of, anonymous persons, material picked up by the 

officers on the streets, material from the newspapers, 

(Discussion off the record.)

THE COURT: I think wc might go ahead to a good

breaking point, a little bit longer if you wish. If you come 

to the breaking point you would like bp use as your break —  

it is now after four.

MR. Wc will proceed to another point, Your
Honor,

BY MR. 3AUSE: \

Q Now, Lieutenant, you have indicated that you re­

ceived various types or information from various sources.

Would you ever participate in any of the turn ups which were 

suggested or indicated by this information?

A Yes, sir*

ft And would you describe to His Honor —  strike that, 

Was there a general procedure that was followed in 

these turn ups?

A Yes.

<4 That you participated in?

A Yes, sir. You have heard from prior testimony that
446

738



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a call was evaluated, each call as we got It, at the North­

eastern District, or 11* I received it from —  I receiver many 

calls from officers throughout the City who, of course, wouldn 

name their informer because their informer was frightened,

Your Honor, and diun't want to become involved and I received 

a number of calls myself from officers, via phone, and, of 

course, we felt that that was somewhat reliable. We asked the 

officer what he thought, hc‘d say, well, he‘s a good fellow,

I knew him before, he has related certain information to me 

before. And, of course, on this basis we would go out and 

perform our turn ups. Of course, we had a surveilance car, 

as has alreaoy been testified to by other officers, to proceed 

approximately two or three blocks from the particular addresse 

and send a scout car in advance to survey the situation and 

return and then we would proceed with the turn up.

Now, of course, if someone picked a phone up and 

said, wo received a call from the switchboard downtown

and they said, we got a call from a certain address, some­

one picked up the phone and they say the Veneys were at a cer­

tain address and hung up. Then we might try to send a car thex 

to look this aadx*ess over.

Of course, you had to evaluate the emotions, the 

emotional voice, the audibility of the voice calling,. We woulc 

Sive credence to the reliability of the call. I have taken 

:alls irom women, irora men, who told me the Veneys were in this

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house there, there*s a woman living there with them that has 

a daughter and she'd been taking food to them and so forth,

I can't specifically cite the address but I have had those 

sort of calls,

THU COURT: Have you finished the answer?

THE WITNESS* Yes.

THE COURT* Well, did you keep a record of these 

calls, any memoi-andum?

THE WITNESS* They would be Jotted down on the 

reports, sir, Novr, they were subsequently typed up,

THE COURT* Well, where are those; because the 

Special Masters looked over and found so many oases in which 

there wasn't any information as to the source,

THE WITNESS* Well, sir, they wouldn't identify 

themselves, these people who called,

THE COURT* You said something would be jotted dow 

but in many cases the report is from the men who went over it, 

the reports showed there simply wasn't anything in your record; 

to show the sources in the records that were turned over, ther< 

was absolutely anything in the record as to the Bource of in­

formation.

Is there anything, do you know of any records that 

were not given to Mr. Murphy?

THE WITNESS: No, sir,

THE COURT* That would be a good deal of help to



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the Court.

THE WITNESS* No, sir.

BY MR. SAUSEt

Q Well, have calls that diet not result in turn ups, 

Lieutenant, was any rccorus kept of those?

A No, sir, not to ray recollection.

THE COURT* The records show, of the men who looke 

at the records, they hau records of nine tips that did not 

result in turn ups and Lieutenant Glover testified that he 

thought that there were about three tips that he got that he 

discarded and didn't follow. I thought he perhaps had receive 

maybe somewhere around a third of the calls that came in. Can 

you give us any estimate of the number of calls that you took 

and/or what portion of the total calls you took ana how many 

tips you discarded, if you can, either exactly or roughly?

THE WITNESS; Well, sir, roughly, I would say betwe 

twelve or fifteen cals that I took personally, that I can 

recall personally.

THE COURT: You mean only calls that you took?

THE WITNESS* Personally.

THE COURT: Now, how many of those, if any, did yo

discard?

THE WITNESS* I don't recall discarding any that

I took, sir. 149

THE COURT; All right



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x MR. SAUSE: Your Honor, would this be a convenient

place for Youi\Honor to break for the day?

THE u$URT* Yes.

(Court ws adjourned at ^:30 o'clock P.M.)

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